# proviron and PCT



## Absolute (Jun 9, 2004)

I got some proviron cause I read it is a good addition to a PCT. Monday was my final injection and in two weeks I will start taking 5000iu of hcg a week for 2 weeks along with 40mg nolvadex. I am going to continue the novladex for 2 additional weeks. Any suggestions on how to mix the proviron in? I figured 50mg a day but should I start now or wait till I start the rest?


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## Mudge (Jun 9, 2004)

Proviron is an androgen and can be used ON cycle but not POST CYCLE.

I've never used it in my life and dont see a reason to.


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## Absolute (Jun 9, 2004)

*From MuscleTalk.com:*
*Proviron (Mesterolone)*
Proviron is an anabolic steroid with little direct anabolic properties. It has good binding qualities with the androgen receptor, but most never reaches the androgen receptor in muscle tissue, as it is enzymatically converted to diol. It is however effective as an anti-aromatase, and is believed to also act in an anti-oestrogenic manner due to certain oestrogen receptor down-regulation, making it a very effective compound for preventing gyno. Proviron also helps restore sexual dysfunctions caused by steroid cycling, helping to increase sexual desire as a result of the increased androgen levels, a downside can be permanent erections in some males which at first may sound fantastic but can be extremely painful, in which case the dose should be lowered or discontinued. Proviron will also help reduce excess bloating caused by water retention. 


Proviron can be used effectively throughout clomid therapy as it displays no signs of inhibiting the HPTA (see article 'Clomid and HCG'), and is helpful in keeping androgen levels elevated until natural testosterone production is restored correctly. The androgenic activity is also responsible for the distinct hardening of muscles and is one reason it is often favoured leading up to competitions.  
Dosing
Proviron is supplied in 25mg tablets. 
Usual dose is between 25 to 100mg/day, in most cases 25 to 50mg/day is sufficient. Dose is best split am and pm.


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## biggmike777 (Jun 9, 2004)

I disagree with that article. I definately feel proviron shuts you down. Ran it by itself pre-contest as a hardener, and it still shuts you down.


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## ZECH (Jun 9, 2004)

Drug profile from Big Cat...................




*Characteristics:* 

*M*esterolone is an orally active, 1-methylated DHT. Like Masteron, but then actually delivered in an oral fashion. DHT is the conversion product of testosterone at the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, the result being a hormone that is 3 to 4 times as androgenic and is structurally incapable of forming estrogen. One would imagine then that mesterolone would be a perfect drug to enhance strength and add small but completely lean gains to the frame. Unfortunately there is a control mechanism for DHT in the human body. When levels get too high, the 3alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme converts it to a mostly inactive compound known as 3-alpha (5-alpha-androstan-3alpha,17beta-diol), a prohormone if you will. It can equally convert back to DHT by way of the same enzyme when low levels of DHT are detected. But it means that unless one uses ridiculously high amounts, most of what is administered is quite useless at the height of the androgen receptor in muscle tissue and thus mesterolone is not particularly suited, if at all, to promote muscle hypertrophy. 





*P*roviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels. 

*T*he second use is in enhancing the potency of testosterone. Testosterone in the body at normal physiological levels is mostly inactive. As much as 97 or 98 percent of testosterone in that amount is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin, two proteins. In such a form testosterone is mostly inactive. But as with the aromatase enzyme, DHT has a higher affinity for these proteins than testosterone does, so when administered simultaneously the mesterolone will attach to the SHBG and albumin, leaving larger amounts of free testosterone to mediate anabolic activities such as protein synthesis. Another way in which it helps to increase gains. Its also another part of the equation that makes it ineffective on its own, as binding to these proteins too, would render it a non-issue at the androgen receptor. 

*T*hirdly, mesterolone is added in pre-contest phases to increase a distinct hardness and muscle density. Probably due to its reduction in circulating estrogen, perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue, it decreases the total water build-up of the body giving its user a much leaner look, and a visual effect of possessing "harder" muscles with more cuts and striations. Proviron is often used as a last-minute secret by a lot of bodybuilders and both actors and models have used it time and again to deliver top shape day in day out, when needed. Like the other methylated DHT compound, drostanolone, mesterolone is particularly potent in achieving this feat. 

*L*astly Proviron is used during a cycle of certain hormones such as nandrolone, with a distinct lack of androgenic nature, or perhaps 5-alpha reduced hormones that don't have the same affinities as DHT does. Such compounds, thinking of trenbolone, nandrolone and such in particular, have been known to decrease libido. Limiting the athlete to perform sexually being the logical result. DHT plays a key role in this process and is therefore administered in conjunction with such steroids to ease or relieve this annoying side-effect. Proviron is also commonly prescribed by doctors to people with low levels of testosterone, or patients with chronic impotence. Its not perceived as a powerful anabolic, but it gets the job done equally well if not better than other anabolic steroids making it a favorite in medical practices due to its lower chance of abuse. 

*M*esterolone is generally well liked nonetheless as it delivers very few side-effects in men. In high doses it can cause some virilization symptoms in women. But because of the high level of deactivation and pre-destination in the system (albumin, SHBG, 3bHSD, aromatase) quite a lot of it, if not all simply never reaches the androgen receptor where it would cause anabolic effects, but also side-effects. So its relatively safe. Doses between 25 and 250 mg per day are used with no adverse effects. 50 mg per day is usually sufficient to be effective in each of the four cases we mentioned up above, so going higher really isn't necessary. Unlike what some suggest or believe, its not advised that Proviron be used when not used in conjunction with another steroid, as it too is quite suppressive of natural testosterone, leading to all sorts of future complications upon discontinuation. Ranging from loss of libido or erectile dysfunction all the way up to infertility. One would not be aware of such dangers because Proviron fulfills most of the functions of normal levels of testosterone. 

*Stacking and Use:* 

*M*esterolone is an oral alkylated steroid. If used primarily as an anti-aromatase drug, using it throughout a longer cycle (10-12 weeks) of injectables may elevate liver values a little bit, though much, much less than one would expect with a 17-alpha-alkylated steroid. Eventhough instead of inhibiting gains, mesterolone may actually contribute to gains. So that's a bit of a shame. Its not quite as toxic since its not alkylated in the same fashion, but at the 1 position, which reduces hepatic breakdown, but not like 17-alpha alkylation. The reason for the change of position I assume, is because alkylating at the 17-alpha position has been shown to reduce affinity for sex hormone binding proteins. This would in turn decrease its ability to free testosterone. Nonetheless the delivery rate is quite good. Its taken daily in 50-100 mg doses. 

*T*he best thing to stack it with is testosterone of course. Its most easily bound to SHBG and albumin, and deactivated for up to 98%. Since the DHT can compete for these structures with higher affinity it would naturally lead to a higher yield of whatever testosterone product you stacked it with. Since DHT levels are notably higher now there is also more stimulation of the androgen receptor causing more strength gains, and because of its affinity for aromatase the overall estrogen level decreases as well. This has as a result that gains are leaner, and once again the overall testosterone yield is increased as less I converted at the aromatase enzyme. 

*I*t's of course used in other stacks with products such as methandrostenolone, boldenone and nandrolone to reduce estrogenic activity and increase muscle hardness. The addition of proviron makes boldenone a dead lock for a cutting stack and for some may even make it possible to use nandrolone while cutting, although the use of Winstrol or a receptor antagonist in conjunction is wishful as well. The benefit of adding it to a nandrolone stack is that it may also help you reduce the decrease in libido suffered from nandrolone, since the latter is mostly deactivated by 5-alpha reductase, an enzyme that makes other hormones more androgenic. *P*roviron is an anti-aromatase, so obviously anti-estrogens would be futile and redundant. Blood pressure medication for those prone to hypertension may be wise, as this DHT can increase the blood pressure. 




[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Active Life: 8-12 hours (effects last about 24 hours)
Drug Class: Androgenic Steroid/Anti- Aromatization (Oral)
Average Dose: Men 25-100 mg/day.....Women 25-50 mg/day
Acne: Rare
Water Retention: No
High Blood Pressure: Rare
Liver Toxic: Low
Aromatization: None
DHT Conversion: No, it is a derivative of DHT
Decrease HPTA function: No 
Proviron® is the Schering brand name for the oral androgen mesterolone (1 methyl-dihydrotestosterone). Just as with DHT, the activity of this steroid is that of a strong androgen which does not aromatize into estrogen. In clinical situations Proviron is generally used to treat various types of sexual dysfunction, which often result from a low endogenous testosterone level. It can usually reverse problems of sexual disinterest and impotency, and is sometimes used to increase the sperm count. The drug does not stimulate the body to produce testosterone, but is simply an oral androgen substitute that is used to compensate for a lack of the natural male androgen.

Although this steroid is strongly androgenic, the anabolic effect of it is considered too weak for muscle building purposes. This is due to the fact that Proviron is rapidly reduced to inactive metabolites in muscle tissue, a trait also characteristic of dihydrotestosterone. The belief that the weak anabolic nature of this compound indicated a tendency to block the androgen receptor in muscle tissue, thereby reducing the gains of other more potent muscle building steroids, should likewise not be taken seriously. In fact due to its extremely high affinity for plasma binding proteins such as SHBG, Proviron may actually work to increase the activity of other steroids by displacing a higher percentage into a free, unbound state. Among athletes Proviron is primarily used as an anti-estrogen. It is believed to act as an anti-aromatase in the body, preventing or slowing the conversion of steroids into estrogen. The result is somewhat comparable to Arimidex (though less profound), the drug acting to prevent the buildup of estrogen in the body. This is in direct contrast to Nolvadex, which only blocks the ability of estrogen to bind and activate receptors in certain tissues. The anti-aromatization effect is preferred, as it is a more direct and efficient means of dealing with the problem of estrogenic side effects. Another disadvantage of Nolvadex is that if discontinued too early, a rebound effect may occur as high serum estrogen levels are again free to take action. This of course could mean a rapid onset of side effects such as gynecomastia. Most actually prefer to use both Proviron and Nolvadex, especially during strongly estrogenic cycles. With each item attacking estrogen at a different angle, side effects are often greatly reduced.

The anti-estrogenic properties of Proviron are not unique to this compound. A number of steroids have in fact demonstrated similar activity. Dihydrotestosterone and Masteron (2methyl-dihydrotestosterone) for example have been successfully used as therapies for gynecomastia and breast cancer due to their strong anti-estrogenic effect. It has been suggested that nandrolone may even lower aromatase activity in peripheral tissues where it is more resistant to estrogen conversion (the most active site of nandrolone aromatization seems to be the liver). The anti-estrogenic effect of all of these compounds is presumably caused by their ability to compete with other substrates for binding to the aromatase enzyme. With the aromatase enzyme bound to the steroid, yet being unable to alter it, and inhibiting effect is achieved as it is temporarily blocked from interacting with other hormones.

This drug is also favored by many during contest preparations, when a lower estrogen/high androgen level is particularly sought after. This is especially beneficial when anabolics like Winstrol, oxandrolone and Primobolan are being used alone, as the androgenic content of these drugs is relatively low. Proviron can supplement a well needed androgen, and bring about an increase in the hardness and density of the muscles. Women in particular find a single 25mg tablet will efficiently shift the androgen/estrogen ratio, and can have a great impact on the physique. Since this is such a strong androgen however, extreme caution should be taken with administration. Higher dosages clearly have the potential to cause virilization symptoms quite readily. For this reason females will rarely take more than one tablet per day, and limit the length of intake to no longer than four or five weeks. One tablet used in conjunction with 10 or 20mg of Nolvadex can be even more efficient for muscle hardening, creating an environment where the body is much more inclined to burn off extra body fat (especially in female trouble areas like the hips and thighs). 

The typical dosage for men is one to four 25 mg per tablets per day. This is a sufficient amount to prevent gynecomastia, the drug is often used throughout the entire cycle. As mentioned earlier, it is often combined with Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate) or Clomid (clomiphene citrate) when heavily estrogenic steroids are being taken (Dianabol, testosterone etc.). Administering 50mg of Proviron and 20mg Nolvadex daily has proven extremely effective in such instances, and it is quite uncommon for higher dosages to be required. And just as we discussed for women, the androgenic nature of this compound is greatly welcome during contest preparation. Here again Proviron should noticeably benefit the hardness and density of the muscle, while at the same time increasing the tendency to burn off a greater amount of body fat. Proviron is usually well tolerated and side effects (men) are rare with dosages under 100 mg per day. Above this, one may develop an excessively high androgen level and encounter some problems. Typical androgenic side effects include oily skin, acne, body/facial hair growth and exacerbation of a male pattern baldness condition, and may occur even with the use of a moderate dosage. With the strong effect DHT has on the reproductive system, androgenic actions may also include an extreme heightening of male libido. And as discussed earlier, Women should be careful around Proviron. It is an androgen, and as such has the potential to produce virilization symptoms quite readily. This includes, of course, a deepening of the voice, menstrual irregularities, changes in skin texture and clitoral enlargement.

Proviron is also not a c17 alpha alkylated compound, an alteration commonly used with oral anabolic/androgenic steroids. Not using this structure in the case of Proviron removes the notable risk of liver toxicity we normally associate with oral drugs. It is therefore considered a "safe" oral, the user having no need to worry about serious complications with use. This steroid in fact utilizes the same 1-methylation we see present on Primobolan (methenolone), another well tolerated orally active compound. Alkylation at the one position also slows metabolism of the steroid during the first pass, although much less profoundly than 17 alpha alkylation. Likewise Proviron and Primobolan are resistant enough to breakdown to allow therapeutically beneficial blood levels to be achieved, although the overall bioavailability of these compounds is still much lower than methylated oral steroids.

The popularity of Proviron amongst bodybuilders has been increasing in recent years. Many experienced bodybuilders have in fact come to swear by it, incorporating it effectively in most markedly estrogenic cycles. Due to high demand Proviron is now very easy to obtain on the black market. Most versions will be manufactured by Schering, and should cost about $1-$2 per 25 mg tab. This drug is packaged in both push-through strips and small glass vials, so do not let this alarm you. There is currently no need to worry about authenticity with this drug, as no counterfeits are known to exist. If money and availability does not prevent it, Arimidex, Femara, or Aromasin ares actually a much better choice than Proviron though. These drugs were designed specifically as an anti-aromatase, and works much more effectively than anything else we have available.


[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]​
Active Life: 8-12 hours (effects last about 24 hours)
Drug Class: Androgenic Steroid/Anti- Aromatization (Oral)
Average Dose: Men 25-100 mg/day.....Women 25-50 mg/day
Acne: Rare
Water Retention: No
High Blood Pressure: Rare
Liver Toxic: Low
Aromatization: None
DHT Conversion: No, it is a derivative of DHT
Decrease HPTA function: No 
Proviron® is the Schering brand name for the oral androgen mesterolone (1 methyl-dihydrotestosterone). Just as with DHT, the activity of this steroid is that of a strong androgen which does not aromatize into estrogen. In clinical situations Proviron is generally used to treat various types of sexual dysfunction, which often result from a low endogenous testosterone level. It can usually reverse problems of sexual disinterest and impotency, and is sometimes used to increase the sperm count. The drug does not stimulate the body to produce testosterone, but is simply an oral androgen substitute that is used to compensate for a lack of the natural male androgen.

Although this steroid is strongly androgenic, the anabolic effect of it is considered too weak for muscle building purposes. This is due to the fact that Proviron is rapidly reduced to inactive metabolites in muscle tissue, a trait also characteristic of dihydrotestosterone. The belief that the weak anabolic nature of this compound indicated a tendency to block the androgen receptor in muscle tissue, thereby reducing the gains of other more potent muscle building steroids, should likewise not be taken seriously. In fact due to its extremely high affinity for plasma binding proteins such as SHBG, Proviron may actually work to increase the activity of other steroids by displacing a higher percentage into a free, unbound state. Among athletes Proviron is primarily used as an anti-estrogen. It is believed to act as an anti-aromatase in the body, preventing or slowing the conversion of steroids into estrogen. The result is somewhat comparable to Arimidex (though less profound), the drug acting to prevent the buildup of estrogen in the body. This is in direct contrast to Nolvadex, which only blocks the ability of estrogen to bind and activate receptors in certain tissues. The anti-aromatization effect is preferred, as it is a more direct and efficient means of dealing with the problem of estrogenic side effects. Another disadvantage of Nolvadex is that if discontinued too early, a rebound effect may occur as high serum estrogen levels are again free to take action. This of course could mean a rapid onset of side effects such as gynecomastia. Most actually prefer to use both Proviron and Nolvadex, especially during strongly estrogenic cycles. With each item attacking estrogen at a different angle, side effects are often greatly reduced.

The anti-estrogenic properties of Proviron are not unique to this compound. A number of steroids have in fact demonstrated similar activity. Dihydrotestosterone and Masteron (2methyl-dihydrotestosterone) for example have been successfully used as therapies for gynecomastia and breast cancer due to their strong anti-estrogenic effect. It has been suggested that nandrolone may even lower aromatase activity in peripheral tissues where it is more resistant to estrogen conversion (the most active site of nandrolone aromatization seems to be the liver). The anti-estrogenic effect of all of these compounds is presumably caused by their ability to compete with other substrates for binding to the aromatase enzyme. With the aromatase enzyme bound to the steroid, yet being unable to alter it, and inhibiting effect is achieved as it is temporarily blocked from interacting with other hormones.

This drug is also favored by many during contest preparations, when a lower estrogen/high androgen level is particularly sought after. This is especially beneficial when anabolics like Winstrol, oxandrolone and Primobolan are being used alone, as the androgenic content of these drugs is relatively low. Proviron can supplement a well needed androgen, and bring about an increase in the hardness and density of the muscles. Women in particular find a single 25mg tablet will efficiently shift the androgen/estrogen ratio, and can have a great impact on the physique. Since this is such a strong androgen however, extreme caution should be taken with administration. Higher dosages clearly have the potential to cause virilization symptoms quite readily. For this reason females will rarely take more than one tablet per day, and limit the length of intake to no longer than four or five weeks. One tablet used in conjunction with 10 or 20mg of Nolvadex can be even more efficient for muscle hardening, creating an environment where the body is much more inclined to burn off extra body fat (especially in female trouble areas like the hips and thighs). 

The typical dosage for men is one to four 25 mg per tablets per day. This is a sufficient amount to prevent gynecomastia, the drug is often used throughout the entire cycle. As mentioned earlier, it is often combined with Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate) or Clomid (clomiphene citrate) when heavily estrogenic steroids are being taken (Dianabol, testosterone etc.). Administering 50mg of Proviron and 20mg Nolvadex daily has proven extremely effective in such instances, and it is quite uncommon for higher dosages to be required. And just as we discussed for women, the androgenic nature of this compound is greatly welcome during contest preparation. Here again Proviron should noticeably benefit the hardness and density of the muscle, while at the same time increasing the tendency to burn off a greater amount of body fat. Proviron is usually well tolerated and side effects (men) are rare with dosages under 100 mg per day. Above this, one may develop an excessively high androgen level and encounter some problems. Typical androgenic side effects include oily skin, acne, body/facial hair growth and exacerbation of a male pattern baldness condition, and may occur even with the use of a moderate dosage. With the strong effect DHT has on the reproductive system, androgenic actions may also include an extreme heightening of male libido. And as discussed earlier, Women should be careful around Proviron. It is an androgen, and as such has the potential to produce virilization symptoms quite readily. This includes, of course, a deepening of the voice, menstrual irregularities, changes in skin texture and clitoral enlargement.

Proviron is also not a c17 alpha alkylated compound, an alteration commonly used with oral anabolic/androgenic steroids. Not using this structure in the case of Proviron removes the notable risk of liver toxicity we normally associate with oral drugs. It is therefore considered a "safe" oral, the user having no need to worry about serious complications with use. This steroid in fact utilizes the same 1-methylation we see present on Primobolan (methenolone), another well tolerated orally active compound. Alkylation at the one position also slows metabolism of the steroid during the first pass, although much less profoundly than 17 alpha alkylation. Likewise Proviron and Primobolan are resistant enough to breakdown to allow therapeutically beneficial blood levels to be achieved, although the overall bioavailability of these compounds is still much lower than methylated oral steroids.

The popularity of Proviron amongst bodybuilders has been increasing in recent years. Many experienced bodybuilders have in fact come to swear by it, incorporating it effectively in most markedly estrogenic cycles. Due to high demand Proviron is now very easy to obtain on the black market. Most versions will be manufactured by Schering, and should cost about $1-$2 per 25 mg tab. This drug is packaged in both push-through strips and small glass vials, so do not let this alarm you. There is currently no need to worry about authenticity with this drug, as no counterfeits are known to exist. If money and availability does not prevent it, Arimidex, Femara, or Aromasin ares actually a much better choice than Proviron though. These drugs were designed specifically as an anti-aromatase, and works much more effectively than anything else we have available.


[/font]


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## Absolute (Jun 9, 2004)

from superior muscle:
Abstract refuting that Proviron is not highly suppressive 

 Only 85 men out of 250 showed any suppression. Proviron did not shut down the HPTA in any of the subjects and that was at 150mg for 1 year. 

This study shows no effect on normal LH and FSH with 100-150mg/ d mesterolone, and decrease of FSH/LH that were elevated. 
Proviron doesn't substitute Clomid as hpta therapy, but doesn't get in the way, either. 
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men. 

Varma TR, Patel RH. 

Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K. 

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy. 

PMID: 2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## Mudge (Jun 9, 2004)

85/250 is 34%, so you have a 2/3 chance that it wont "shut you down" when we dont always care about complete shut down but simply "suppression" of any form.


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## Absolute (Jun 10, 2004)

But I though that even the hcg causes mild suppression?


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## Mudge (Jun 10, 2004)

Yes, which is why it is not used PCT.


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## ZECH (Jun 10, 2004)

HCG is better used throughout your cycle........


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## Mudge (Jun 10, 2004)

Yep yep, better to keep them filled up than to wait till later. Imagine a 6 month long cycle with no hCG and you leaving your nuts the size of peas that whole time, permanent atrophy anyone? Not interested in having lowered testosterone levels for the rest of my life because of that.


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## Absolute (Jun 10, 2004)

From Big Cat: didn't want to post the whole thing. He says that hcg post cycle is a must.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/par31.htm


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## Mudge (Jun 10, 2004)

Peter has also never touched steroids in his life and has misinterpreted more than one study, yet chooses to argue with more than one doctor that he somehow knows the thyroid better than they do.

Smart guy, but blind.

In other words, I will listen to his opinion but wont take the advice generally.


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## Absolute (Jun 10, 2004)

You know this is the worst part of being a begginer you can read all you want but there are just some subjects that no one agrees on. I value your opinion though mudge, to me they guys here on the board have the benifit of experiance vs. just reading something on a website. I guess i will just save it for next cycle.


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## Mudge (Jun 10, 2004)

I agree that people disagree, even studies contradict themselves now and then.

Unfortunately or not, I ultimately believe in finding what works for you, along with guidance from those you trust. What this ends up meaning, is we make mistakes along the way, which is one reason I value personal experience over book learning as a sole tool of guidance.

He is a smart guy, and I consider myself somewhat intelligent in my ways as well, but I think sometimes this clouds things (arrogance, pre-formed opinions, etc). You know the saying "he can't see the forest for the trees," I think applies to some of us now and then.


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## ZECH (Jun 10, 2004)

Bill L. wrote that article.
Look at it this way....................The way that article reads is you have to hit the testes hard with HCG PC. He says 5000iu a week. Then you jeapordize desensitizing them. And at 5000iu a week I think that is a good possibility. Generally you want about 500iu a week during cycle to keep them up. Then you are not like raisins and you don't have to hit them as hard. Just easier on the body I think. Plus if you wait PC, it will be a long road to recovery.


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## Mudge (Jun 10, 2004)

I have a whole bunch of different opinions/articles I scooped up in the PCT sticky thread at the top of the forum. I got that thread going because of my own recovery difficulties.


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## Absolute (Jun 10, 2004)

Yeah I agree with the learning experiance being alot more meaningful and informational then just what we read. This is my first cycle so I just want to make sure I do everything right. It was more of a learning experience this time around than anything. I totally agree that it is better to take it during after what I have read. Unfortunately I figured that out to late in my cycle and decided that i would at least shoot for some assistance in recovery.


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## hb1 (Apr 7, 2011)

*hcg for pct*



Absolute said:


> I got some proviron cause I read it is a good addition to a PCT. Monday was my final injection and in two weeks I will start taking 5000iu of hcg a week for 2 weeks along with 40mg nolvadex. I am going to continue the novladex for 2 additional weeks. Any suggestions on how to mix the proviron in? I figured 50mg a day but should I start now or wait till I start the rest?



Just my opinion bro, and anyone that knows for a medical fact that I have this wrong...please tell me if this is the case. 

But it is my understanding that Hcg should be used if anything before or DURING those first 2 weeks after say your last Enthanate Pin...but before Clomid/Nolva use to get your testicles pumping artificially but in a way that supposedly helps to "jump start" them again in order to ease you smoother into natty production again.
Also, it was taught to me that you don't really want to use hcg while your are on your Clomid/Nolva because the whole idea of the Clomid is to get them going naturally and that hcg.... while working to get the testicles pumping artificially much the way an outside battery can crank your motor, but is not going to help get the alternator going once you take the charge away... (testes being the alternator) and will actually slow down or prolong the natty recovery. You are better off using hcg to help ease the harshness of your Axis shut down until your artificial test levels become low enough for your body to begin its functional recovery process. In other words..by the time you are ready for Clomid/Nolva...it's then time to discontinue hcg so the aforementioned can begin to do its job.

Am I making any sense here?


Members...Mods...

If I have this wrong, by all means correct me.

HB1


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## hb1 (Apr 7, 2011)

Absolute said:


> Yeah I agree with the learning experiance being alot more meaningful and informational then just what we read. This is my first cycle so I just want to make sure I do everything right. It was more of a learning experience this time around than anything. I totally agree that it is better to take it during after what I have read. Unfortunately I figured that out to late in my cycle and decided that i would at least shoot for some assistance in recovery.



It won't "HURT" in any way Bro, just not the most efficient way to use it.

It's great that you are taking PCT seriously on your first cycle Bro.

In future...though...ask these questions "before" ha ha you do it !

You might want to post your cycle in the appropriate part of the board next time and get advise while on cycle (good and bad) so you need to choose your Mentor well. But most Bros on IM know their stuff pretty well. I learn from them all the time.

HB1


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## hb1 (Apr 7, 2011)

Absolute said:


> from superior muscle:
> Abstract refuting that Proviron is not highly suppressive
> 
> Only 85 men out of 250 showed any suppression. Proviron did not shut down the HPTA in any of the subjects and that was at 150mg for 1 year.
> ...


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## XYZ (Apr 7, 2011)

You're bumping a thread that is over 7 years old.  Post up a new one.


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