# The One Minute Case Against Socialized Healthcare



## DOMS (Jan 18, 2011)

*There is no right to healthcare*
The United  States was founded with the declaration that all men have the right to  ???life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.??? The Founders recognized  that all men have a moral right to be free from the coercion of others,  as long as they allow others the same freedom.  They believed that  rights do not impose a positive obligation on others, but only the  negative obligation to restrain from the initiation of force.
The  claim that there is a ???right to healthcare??? violates the principle of  individual rights because it requires that the liberty of doctors and  the property of taxpayers be violated to provide for others. When the  New Deal and Great Society programs forced doctors and taxpayers to  become sacrificial offerings to the ???common good???, the current  ???healthcare crisis??? was born.

*The myth of ???free??? healthcare*
It  is a common belief that when government provides something, it is free  or cheap. But politicians cannot create wealth ??? they can only  redistribute it. Money for all government spending comes from business ???  whether by entrepreneurial investment, the wages of patients, or taxes.
Whether  by price controls of outright nationalization, when governments make  prices artificially low, demand skyrockets, and shortages result.  Politicians respond by passing ever more regulations to control costs.  These regulations stifle innovation, drive up costs, and force  healthcare providers out of business. The end result is to replace  capitalism, the greatest wealth-generating system known to man, with an  onerous system of central planning.
Capitalism cannot guarantee  that all our medical needs will be provided for ??? no system can do that.  But it does give entrepreneurs the incentive to compete to provide the  best possible service they can. Centralized socialized systems have no  incentive to improve service or to try bold new techniques. Politicians  can force prices to be artificially low, but they cannot lower costs ???  they can only drive doctors, hospitals, and drug companies out of  business.

*The victims of ???universal??? healthcare*
The  waiting time for treatment in Canada varies from 14 to 30 weeks.  Waiting lists for diagnostic procedures range from two to 24 weeks. Some  patients die while waiting for treatment. To stop sick people from circumventing the  ???free??? system, the government of British Columbia enacted Bill 82 in  2003, which makes it illegal to pay for private surgery. Patients  waiting for critical procedures are now forced to seek procedures in the  U.S. and doctors are abandoning Canada in droves. Cleveland, Ohio is  now Canada???s hip-replacement center. Ontario is turning nurses into  doctors to replace some of the 10,000 doctors who left Canada in the  1990???s. 1 2
What  will patients do when it is illegal to seek private medical treatment  in the U.S.? Politicians are already working towards that goal. State  and federal regulation impose onerous regulations which forbid insurance  companies from offering services such as basic coverage for emergencies  by requiring coverage of many types of procedures. Medicare forces  doctors to follow 130,000 pages of regulations. Critics often attack the  ???capitalist??? nature of American health care system. The reality is that  the government now pays for 50% of health care, and closely regulates  the rest.

*Healthcare is only affordable under capitalism*
If  a society is not wealthy enough to afford healthcare, health socialism  will not make it richer. Cuba, a poster child of socialist healthcare  schemes, spends $229 on healthcare per person each year, while the U.S.  spends $ 6,096.3  Premium services are available only to paying foreigners, while natives  must bribe doctors for timely treatment and bring their own towels, bed  sheets, soap, food, and even sutures.4
A  government can decide to replace individual choice with state-mandated  decisions of what goods and services are more important for the ???common  good.??? But it can only spend on one area at the expense of another.  If  Cubans are not totally deprived of medical treatment, it can only be at  the expense of all other goods. A doctor???s salary in Cuba is 1.5 times  the median at $15-20 per month. 5  A telling sign of their deprivation is the Cuban suicide rate, which is  the highest in Latin America and among the highest in world. Cubans in  Miami on the other hand, kill themselves less often than other Miamians.6  When they risk their lives in leaky boats to escape to the U.S., the  right to make their own decisions regarding their health is among the  freedoms they hope to gain.

*References:*


???Free Health Care in Canada??? by Walter Williams
???Do We Want Socialized Medicine???? by Walter Williams
Reuters:  Health care in Cuba more complicated than on SiCKO
BBC: Keeping Cuba Healthy by John Harris 
???An Evaluation of Four Decades of Cuban Healthcare??? by Felipe Eduardo Sixto (PDF)
Miami Herald: ???Study: Suicide epidemic exists under Castro??? by Juan O. Tamayo
*Further reading:*


Moral Health Care vs. ???Universal Health Care??? by Lin Zinser and Dr. Paul Hsieh
Health Care Is Not a Right by Leonard Peikoff, Ph.D.
Health Care Is a Business???or Should Be by Richard E. Ralston
Video: Unisured in America (Free Market Cure Documentary Series)
Americans for Free Choice in Medicine
American Health Care: Essential Principles and Common Fallacies
FIRM: Freedom and Individual Rights in Medicine
The ???Cost??? of Medical Care by Thomas Sowell
Michael Moore???s Shticko by Michael C. Moynihan
NY Times: ???As Canada???s Slow-Motion Public Health System Falters, Private Medical Care Is Surging???
Do fat people deserve medical treatment?
The One Minute Case for Individual Rights


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## irish_2003 (Jan 18, 2011)

that took more than a minute to read......how about i simply don't want anyone who is on welfare for more than 3 years consecutively or any non natural citizen of the USA to get ANY healthcare.....fuck 'em....survival of the fittest!!!


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## bio-chem (Jan 18, 2011)

I agree. longer than a minute and im a fast reader. lets just go with *the pursuit of happiness* is an inalienable right. no one promises actual happiness, or free healthcare. government has no business or responsibility providing healthcare to the populace


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## danzik17 (Jan 18, 2011)

bio-chem said:


> I agree. longer than a minute and im a fast reader. lets just go with *the pursuit of happiness* is an inalienable right. no one promises actual happiness, or free healthcare. government has no business or responsibility providing healthcare to the populace




Depends on how you view Article 1 Section 8 of the constitution.  Some view the wording as explicitly allowing for nationalized healthcare.  I'm on the other side of the fence.  Any wording that explicitly applies to individuals used the "the people" verbage and didn't represent them as the "United States" as a whole.


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## Built (Jan 18, 2011)

You know, I read these stories - but I live in Canada and I've never had to wait very long for health care. I've had at least 5 MRIs in as many years, and my wait was in proportion to my symptoms - when acute and pronounced, I got in the next day. When my symptoms were chronic and manageable, I waited three months.  I've been hospitalized for appendicitis, ovarian cysts, kidney stones, and broken bones. I never had to pay a dime out of pocket - or wait to be treated. 

I love my country's public health care. I have always known how lucky I am to live here.


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## Zaphod (Jan 18, 2011)

There would actually be a point to that if the Obama healthcare bill actually was socialized medicine.  Since it isn't...


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## Dark Geared God (Jan 18, 2011)

Built said:


> You know, I read these stories - but I live in Canada and I've never had to wait very long for health care. I've had at least 5 MRIs in as many years, and my wait was in proportion to my symptoms - when acute and pronounced, I got in the next day. When my symptoms were chronic and manageable, I waited three months. I've been hospitalized for appendicitis, ovarian cysts, kidney stones, and broken bones. I never had to pay a dime out of pocket - or wait to be treated.
> 
> I love my country's public health care. I have always known how lucky I am to live here.


you don't wait because you jerked and tan good looking people like us don't wait..true stuff.And i'm not joking ever notic that sales peple or people in general will pass a unjerked (fat person) to help u first..
just saying


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## Built (Jan 18, 2011)

When I had my appendix out, I was nine years old. 

When I had the ovarian cysts, I was fat. 

When I had the bicycle accident, I was still fat. 

I've only been lean since 2001. Before that, I was an ordinary, plump jogger.


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## ROID (Jan 18, 2011)

I really haven't made up my mind about health care. 

I do need to purchase health insurance again.


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## GearsMcGilf (Jan 18, 2011)

ROID said:


> I really haven't made up my mind about health care.
> 
> I do need to purchase health insurance again.



You won't have any choice soon and you'll pay moar for it.


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## DOMS (Jan 18, 2011)

GearsMcGilf said:


> You won't have any choice soon and you'll pay moar for it.



And for those of us that are barely every ill, you'll end up paying for someone else. Like the fat ass in the _Rep Points!_ thread.


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## Doublebase (Jan 18, 2011)

I would be curious to know the ratio of doctors to non-doctors in the U.S vs Canada.


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## Built (Jan 18, 2011)

There's about one doctor for every 500 people in Canada. 

In the States, it's about the same - (slightly more, like one for every 460 people in the US).


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## oufinny (Jan 18, 2011)

ROID said:


> I really haven't made up my mind about health care.
> 
> I do need to purchase health insurance again.



And you will get better coverage the way the system is now, TRUST ME.  If you know anyone on medicare you will find out how not fun an underfunded "social" medicine program is.  There are so many things fucked up with the healthcare bill it makes my head spin.  

America is supposed to be a free model of the capitalist society and at every corner we turn this proves near false.  For example, the right was pushing for the allowance of interstate healthcare to generate a true market for healthcare.  This ROID, is what would provide you with the best coverage as market forces would work and economies of scale would prevail.  Also, the idea of in network and out of network would become that much less pronounced as the company in WA state you buy your insurance through will have little bearing on who you see in TX or FL.  That is just one facet of it that has to be changed otherwise we are stuck in the same, broken system that the doctors (yes they created this by being greedy for years) and then managed care (thank you Hillary "beotch" Clinton) system created.  

Also, if you keep crippling doctors with 30-50% of their revenue going to pay for mal-practice insurance, it discourages new entrants into the profession and will slow progress of riskier, more aggressive treatments.  This is where tort reform on a national level has to be implemented so patients are leaving with $50mm dollars when that is far in excess for the loss they suffered (so the lawyer's pocket can be lined further, this drives the damages higher again).  

Those are my thoughts, just a lowly 29 year old scared shitless that I am going to be stuck with O'Bamacare because our useless congress won't do what the people want; get rid of the bill and write one that makes sense and doesn't bankrupt the country.


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## oufinny (Jan 18, 2011)

bio-chem said:


> I agree. longer than a minute and im a fast reader. lets just go with *the pursuit of happiness* is an inalienable right. no one promises actual happiness, or free healthcare. government has no business or responsibility providing healthcare to the populace



It is a privilege, not a right... people continually forget that like our fearless community organizer.


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## bio-chem (Jan 18, 2011)

Built said:


> You know, I read these stories - but I live in Canada and *I've never had to wait very long for health care.* I've had at least 5 MRIs in as many years, and my wait was in proportion to my symptoms - when acute and pronounced, I got in the next day. When my symptoms were chronic and manageable, *I waited three months*.  I've been hospitalized for appendicitis, ovarian cysts, kidney stones, and broken bones. I never had to pay a dime out of pocket - or wait to be treated.
> 
> I love my country's public health care. I have always known how lucky I am to live here.


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## min0 lee (Jan 18, 2011)

Built said:


> You know, I read these stories - but I live in Canada and I've never had to wait very long for health care. I've had at least 5 MRIs in as many years, and my wait was in proportion to my symptoms - when acute and pronounced, I got in the next day. When my symptoms were chronic and manageable, I waited three months.  I've been hospitalized for appendicitis, ovarian cysts, kidney stones, and broken bones. I never had to pay a dime out of pocket - or wait to be treated.
> 
> I love my country's public health care. I have always known how lucky I am to live here.



You're like the third Canadian I hear say this, my sisters who live in Rochester would travel to Canada for what I believe was healthcare or medicine...not sure.

It's getting harder and harder to know what's true out there, the only way is through personal experience.


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## DOMS (Jan 18, 2011)

Built said:


> You know, I read these stories - but I live in Canada and I've never had to wait very long for health care. I've had at least 5 MRIs in as many years, and my wait was in proportion to my symptoms - when acute and pronounced, I got in the next day. When my symptoms were chronic and manageable, I waited three months.  I've been hospitalized for appendicitis, ovarian cysts, kidney stones, and broken bones. I never had to pay a dime out of pocket - or wait to be treated.
> 
> I love my country's public health care. I have always known how lucky I am to live here.



That sounds good, but then I hear of stuff like the premier of Newfoundland going to Florida for heart surgery and videos like this. 






YouTube Video











You know what it really comes down to? How _well_ the US government has done with social security, the education system, and the budget.

Thanks, but no thanks, I'll manage my own health care.


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## oufinny (Jan 18, 2011)

DOMS said:


> That sounds good, but then I hear of stuff like the premier of Newfoundland going to Florida for heart surgery and videos like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This will be America, you ever been to the DMV or Post Office?? Yeah, it will make them look like a walk in the park.


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## Big Smoothy (Jan 18, 2011)

DOMS said:


> *There is no right to healthcare*



The only way to eradicate Socialist Medical care is to completely wipe out the Medicare system.

Is this going to happen?

Not a chance.  Even as Medicare is now, crashing.


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## BigBird (Jan 19, 2011)

If any of you think healthcare is expensive now - just wait until it's "Free." 

Vote Libertarian: smaller government and every man/woman takes of his/her own.  No effing handouts to single un-wed mothers who have multiple babies with multiple men.  You should see the checkout at Stop n Shop.  Mom and 3 kids who all appear to have different fathers pays with State Welfare Food Card (paid for by you and me of course) and then pulls out of the parking lot in a *Cadillac Escalade*.


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## DOMS (Jan 19, 2011)

BigBird said:


> No effing handouts to single un-wed mothers who have multiple babies with multiple men.  You should see the checkout at Stop n Shop.  Mom and 3 kids who all appear to have different fathers pays with State Welfare Food Card (paid for by you and me of course) and then pulls out of the parking lot in a *Cadillac Escalade*.



I've actually seen this, but it was 5 kids by 4 fathers and new Durango.


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## Big Smoothy (Jan 19, 2011)

BigBird said:


> If any of you think healthcare is expensive now - just wait until it's "Free."



We are there now.

It's called MEDICARE. 



> Vote Libertarian: smaller government and every man/woman takes of his/her own.  No effing handouts to single un-wed mothers who have multiple babies with multiple men.  You should see the checkout at Stop n Shop.  Mom and 3 kids who all appear to have different fathers pays with State Welfare Food Card (paid for by you and me of course) and then pulls out of the parking lot in a *Cadillac Escalade*.



Over 51% of the Federal budget spending is spent on Entitlements.

SS, Medicare, etc.  (Add the "defense" spending) on top of the 51%.

Libertarian policies will never happen - and I have been voting Libertarian since 1996.


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## ROID (Jan 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> I've actually seen this, but it was 5 kids by 4 fathers and new Durango.



lol..........my old roommate was with a girl that had 4 kids. Every year she would let him claim two of the kids and some other guy claim the other two to get the most money back.

Didn't the tax credit for children go up this year ?  I thought I read like 3k per child or something like that.


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## DOMS (Jan 19, 2011)

ROID said:


> lol..........my old roommate was with a girl that had 4 kids. Every year she would let him claim two of the kids and some other guy claim the other two to get the most money back.
> 
> Didn't the tax credit for children go up this year ?  I thought I read like 3k per child or something like that.



That shit made me sick. I work my ass off to get what I have. She gets a ton of welfare and doesn't work. Yet she has a large screen LCD TV, a new Durango, etc. I'm sure that some of her money is coming from ex-boyfriends/husbands (one of which is in jail and one unemplyed), but you and I, and otehrs, are paying for a lot of her shit. She on assistance.

Yes, I think it did go up as part of the stimulus package.


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## Dale Mabry (Jan 19, 2011)

Healthcare reform won't work, but is has nothing to do with the gov't.  American's are fat, lazy, stupid, and believe they have a right to do whatever they want to their body and pay no consequences.  Mother Nature begs to differ.

As for the healthcare repeal...it will never happen.  They won't be able to defund it, what you are seeing now is smoke and mirrors.  If they try to get rid of the mandate, it will make premiums prohibitively expensive.  Besides, the insurance industry would never allow that to happen.  The only way to pay for those with pre-existing conditions is to offset the cost with healthy customers, and if the GOP tries to get rid of that part of the law it would be political suicide.  I get people don't want to pay, but you're going to pay a little now or a lot later.  It's like people with exercise, most don't want to do it, but once they get sick or lose the ability to function, they become motivated and end up paying 10x as much to fix the problem.  People say they will do anything to get that perfect body, but 80% quit because they can't control their diet. 10 years down the road they can't walk, have chronic low back pain, are hypertensive, and sick at least once a month.  So instead of taking an hour walk every day 10 years ago, they need to spend $10,000 a year on personal training. I know this because 2 years ago my clientel were primarily fat people looking to lose weight, flash forward to today and my business has more than tripled and 90% of my clients are baby boomers who wan to get rid of low back pain, knee pain, lower BP and cholesterol, just get sick less.  Honestly, keeping the status quo wrt healthcare is a financial boon to me, but the country will suffer if we don't get our shit together.  I support the piece of shit that is Obamacare because the GOP hasn't produced any significantly better alternative.  I agree that tort reform and buying across state lines will make it better, but that's not reform, that's 2 small changes that will have an insignificant impact.


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## maniclion (Jan 19, 2011)

I give one example, the VA....we can't even give our troops the best treatment....parts of healthcare reform that deal with insurance companies fucking us in the ass I am for but other parts that could lead to us being in facilities like Walter Reed Bldg 18 scare the piss out of me....

Keep your Bureaucracy out of my healthcare....
"The typical soldier is required to file 22 documents with eight different commands – most of them off-post – to enter and exit the medical processing world, according to government investigators. Sixteen different information systems are used to process the forms, but few of them can communicate with one another. The Army's three personnel databases cannot read each other's files and can't interact with the separate pay system or the medical recordkeeping databases."[6] This complicated system has required some soldiers to prove they were in the Iraq War or the War in Afghanistan in order to obtain medical treatment and benefits because Walter Reed employees are unable to locate their records."


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## Dark Geared God (Jan 19, 2011)

Built said:


> When I had my appendix out, I was nine years old.
> 
> When I had the ovarian cysts, I was fat.
> 
> ...


 U were young.now if u were old that would make a diff ... just saying


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## AngiziA (Jan 19, 2011)

I have to say i live in Canada also and agree with built public health is great, it doesn't matter u got money or not you can see a doctor if u need to see one, you can go to a walk in clinic and a doc will see ya in 20 minutes, last year i was on high dosage of gear and got mad at wife put my fist through the wall and fucked up the ligaments connecting my thumb, went to emergency with no money they put it in a special cast and went back 3 days later for a free surgery...
you cant be selfish bout health you might have money but what about the poor, not every one has money to go see a doctor.
i am sorry but i just cant understand how can someone be against to public health.


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## DOMS (Jan 19, 2011)

AngiziA said:


> I have to say i live in Canada also and agree with built public health is great, it doesn't matter u got money or not you can see a doctor if u need to see one, you can go to a walk in clinic and a doc will see ya in 20 minutes, last year i was on high dosage of gear and got mad at wife put my fist through the wall and fucked up the ligaments connecting my thumb, went to emergency with no money they put it in a special cast and went back 3 days later for a free surgery...
> you cant be selfish bout health you might have money but what about the poor, not every one has money to go see a doctor.
> i am sorry but i just cant understand how can someone be against to public health.



Just curious, but isn't a basic education free in Canada too?


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## AngiziA (Jan 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> Just curious, but isn't a basic education free in Canada too?[/QUOTE
> 
> they are all free, there are private school if you want to attend them.


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## Dale Mabry (Jan 19, 2011)

Built said:


> You know, I read these stories - but I live in Canada and I've never had to wait very long for health care. I've had at least 5 MRIs in as many years, and my wait was in proportion to my symptoms - when acute and pronounced, I got in the next day. When my symptoms were chronic and manageable, I waited three months.  I've been hospitalized for appendicitis, ovarian cysts, kidney stones, and broken bones. I never had to pay a dime out of pocket - or wait to be treated.
> 
> I love my country's public health care. I have always known how lucky I am to live here.



How dare you. When I want information on socialized healthcare, I'll get it from people who have ideas about what they think will happen, not people who actually live and benefit from that type of system.

Probably the most difficult part for Peeps from the USA to understand about healthcare is that it is not all or nothing, the answer doesn't need to be "you're-on- your-own" or nanny state.  There is a happy medium that is both compassionate to the citizenry and much more cost efficient than the piece of shit we're currently under.


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## tucker01 (Jan 20, 2011)

Built said:


> You know, I read these stories - but I live in Canada and I've never had to wait very long for health care. I've had at least 5 MRIs in as many years, and my wait was in proportion to my symptoms - when acute and pronounced, I got in the next day. When my symptoms were chronic and manageable, I waited three months.  I've been hospitalized for appendicitis, ovarian cysts, kidney stones, and broken bones. I never had to pay a dime out of pocket - or wait to be treated.
> 
> I love my country's public health care. I have always known how lucky I am to live here.



I can't say I have shared the same experiences with the system.  That said I have never had to deal with critical care.

I am looking at 6-8 month wait to get into my family doctor for a physical.

I was a 6 month wait to get an MRI

My shoulder surgery was original scheduled over a year out.  Luckily I got in after waiting 8 months from a cancellation. 

A Two-tiered system in Ontario has already started so people with money can get the attention they need instead of waiting some of these times.


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## DOMS (Jan 20, 2011)

IainDaniel said:


> I can't say I have shared the same experiences with the system.  That said I have never had to deal with critical care.
> 
> I am looking at 6-8 month wait to get into my family doctor for a physical.
> 
> ...



You heard Dale, he doesn't want to hear from people who have ideas about what they think will happen. So take that stuff elsewhere.

Even if the Canadian government did pull off socialised healthcare, I simply don't trust _my_ government to do so.


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## ALBOB (Jan 20, 2011)

To the folks from Canada who get "free" health care, what's your income tax rate???


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## tucker01 (Jan 20, 2011)

depending on income anywhere from 20-45% approx


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## Dale Mabry (Jan 20, 2011)

IainDaniel said:


> I can't say I have shared the same experiences with the system.  That said I have never had to deal with critical care.
> 
> I am looking at 6-8 month wait to get into my family doctor for a physical.
> 
> ...



2-tier is the way to go, I see no reason to prevent someone willing to pay for expedited or better treatment to be denied that. Just curious, if you could only have our current system sans reform or yours, which would you choose?


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## tucker01 (Jan 20, 2011)

Dale Mabry said:


> 2-tier is the way to go, I see no reason to prevent someone willing to pay for expedited or better treatment to be denied that. Just curious, if you could only have our current system sans reform or yours, which would you choose?



Honestly, that is hard for me to answer, as I never had to deal with the American system.

I know when I was waiting for MRI, I could have paid and had it done the next day down in Buffalo.  But I can't even compare when I know nothing about how the American system is to live with and the costs associated with it.


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## Dark Geared God (Jan 20, 2011)

IainDaniel said:


> I can't say I have shared the same experiences with the system. That said I have never had to deal with critical care.
> 
> I am looking at 6-8 month wait to get into my family doctor for a physical.
> 
> ...


 2 tiered...so they system is like ours....money does give u head of the line


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## HialeahChico305 (Jan 20, 2011)

Dark Geared God said:


> 2 tiered...so they system is like ours....money does give u head of the line



Your Grammar is horrendous my knigg. Marry a white girl, and get your shit together already.


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## vortrit (Jan 20, 2011)

HialeahChico305 said:


> Your Grammar is horrendous my knigg. Marry a white girl, and get your shit together already.


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## 1 wolf (Jan 20, 2011)




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## Built (Jan 20, 2011)

bio-chem said:


> Built said:
> 
> 
> > You know, I read these stories - but I live in Canada and *I've never had to wait very long for health care.*  I've had at least 5 MRIs in as many years, and my wait was in  proportion to my symptoms - when acute and pronounced, I got in the next  day. When my symptoms were chronic and manageable, *I waited three months*.   I've been hospitalized for appendicitis, ovarian cysts, kidney stones,  and broken bones. I never had to pay a dime out of pocket - or wait to  be treated.
> ...



The three-month wait was to examine a chronic condition; I broke my shoulder in 1996 (I broke both my arms and was hospitalized for just under a week for surgery to get the left arm pinned - 100% covered) and noticed  impingement bothering me in 2001 when I started lifting weights. 

The orthopedic surgeon I consulted (yes, also for free) requested an x-ray (100% covered), CT-scan (100% covered) and MRI (100% covered) - but this wasn't urgent. The injury was already old, and had healed. At this point, we were investigating treatment options for impingement syndrome.

If I hadn't started lifting weights, I probably never would have noticed any problem. My ortho actually ordered surgery, but I decided to postpone it indefinitely because I was able to rehab it and learned to train in a way that doesn't irritate it. 

You ever notice how I often disparage upright rows and wide-grip chins? That's why.


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## ROID (Jan 21, 2011)

IainDaniel said:


> I can't say I have shared the same experiences with the system.  That said I have never had to deal with critical care.
> 
> I am looking at 6-8 month wait to get into my family doctor for a physical.
> 
> ...



aww....Come live with us. I'll get you some of this good american made health care. 

If you dont add me on facebook you gonna need some critical health care


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## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2011)

Built said:


> The three-month wait was to examine a chronic condition; I broke my shoulder in 1996 (I broke both my arms and was hospitalized for just under a week for surgery to get the left arm pinned - 100% covered) and noticed  impingement bothering me in 2001 when I started lifting weights.
> 
> The orthopedic surgeon I consulted (yes, also for free) requested an x-ray (100% covered), CT-scan (100% covered) and MRI (100% covered) - but this wasn't urgent. The injury was already old, and had healed. At this point, we were investigating treatment options for impingement syndrome.
> 
> ...



I've got to admit, waiting 3 months for a scan that could potentially effect my standard of living doesn't work for me


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## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2011)

vortrit said:


>



no, he is right. that post was like reading with shit in my eyes. sometimes people need to have the damn courtesy to take the .2 seconds and re-read their own posts before they hit submit. i'm not saying being a grammar nazi, but trying not to totally destroy the English language doesn't seem like too much to ask, does it?


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## Built (Jan 21, 2011)

bio-chem said:


> I've got to admit, waiting 3 months for a scan that could potentially effect my standard of living doesn't work for me


It wouldn't work for me either - if it affected my quality of life in any profound way. But this didn't affect (it's affect in this case, not effect) me very much - I was still learning how to train, and doing LOTS of upright rows and wide-grip, behind the neck pulldowns (thank you, mainstream bullshit) so my shoulder was bugging me. I had the x-ray the same day I saw the doctor (whom I saw an hour after I called his office), and the CT-scan two weeks later. 

As I said, this particular problem was chronic, from an injury that had happened more than five years earlier. Old, low-level annoyance. I certainly wouldn't want to bump someone with an acute injury so I can have a high-priced x-ray to confirm something I already knew. At this point, we were just trying to eliminate the remote possibility I had a SLAP tear - which I did not. 

Had it been a SLAP, I wouldn't have had the option to turn down the surgery I had already scheduled. SLAP tears don't heal by themselves. 

When I had trouble with my lower back from what turned out to be a grade-I anterolisthesis, I was in the next day. 

In 2009, when I discovered a herniated disc in my neck, I had an x-ray, a CT-scan, and an MRI within weeks of each other. I subsequently had a  bone scan and a nerve conduction test - and saw the appropriate specialists, of course, for each. I hate to think how much this would have cost me out of pocket. As it was, the only out of pocket expense I had to deal with was parking. 

bio-chem, don't get old. Don't get poor either. And don't let anyone you ever care about get old or poor.


----------



## bandaidwoman (Jan 21, 2011)

There are only two I believe true  socialized health care where the doctors are employees of the government and are salaried by government, ( England and Spain and the Veteran's administration in the U.S. ), the rest, Australia, Italy, New Zealand, Canada, my  home country Taiwan is all nationalized health insurance but the doctors are independant and function autonomously in a free market system, competing against each other.  

America is already a mix of national health insurance for the elderly ( medicare), socilaized like the VA and then a patchwork of independant private insurances that cost this country 400 billion dollars in admininstrative costs a year.

I spend friggin half a  million dollars in insurance premiums a year for my small business. Rates went up 300% in ten years *before* Obama stepped in.

I hear good stories and horror stories in both countries. Let's try this statistic, if you have a heart attack you are better off in america , but if you have an organ transplant your survival is much greater in Canada ( because most americans can't afford the 3 grand a month transplant  meds when they lose their job or max out on the lifetime limit which is why you see all those pathetic donation buckets with pictures of transplant candidates begging for your money).



Hey Built, I was at Dartmouth near the Canadian border.  I took care of a lot of graduate students , undergraduates or visting professors from Canada. For the most part, their experience was like yours, overall very positive.    

By the way, the average wait time for a precert or prior auth approval for MRI's with someone with some of  the HMOs is 6months ( something most radiologists don't know since they *never, never *have to do the prior authorizations,) that is  more pathetic than canada.

And remember this, if americans don't think we ( the employers) don't  suppress your wages to pay for health care insurance, think again. ( there is a competing office that pays their employees a seemingly much higher salary but it is because they don't offer insurance and no retirement benefits).


----------



## Built (Jan 21, 2011)

bandaidwoman, I very rarely encounter Canadians who lament socialized medicine. Okay I'm being generous. I've NEVER personally conversed with a Canadian who wishes for privatized health care. I'm sure these people exist, but privatizing health care is not a topic for polite conversation.

Contrast this with the my many American friends who envy me my access to excellent health care and competitively-priced medications.


----------



## 1 wolf (Jan 21, 2011)

bio-chem said:


> no, he is right. that post was like reading with shit in my eyes. sometimes people need to have the damn courtesy to take the .2 seconds and re-read their own posts before they hit submit. i'm not saying being a grammar nazi, but trying not to totally destroy the English language doesn't seem like too much to ask, does it?







sorry wrong post


----------



## bandaidwoman (Jan 21, 2011)

Built said:


> bandaidwoman, I very rarely encounter Canadians who lament socialized medicine. Okay I'm being generous. I've NEVER personally conversed with a Canadian who wishes for privatized health care. I'm sure these people exist, but privatizing health care is not a topic for polite conversation.
> 
> Contrast this with the my many American friends who envy me my access to excellent health care and competitively-priced medications.



It was my experiences at Dartmouth that made me rethink my views, I belong to the Physicians for National Health Plan, and we are lobbying for universal health insurance.  They are very non-biased and commended and ripped up the Obama plan at the same time.  


For the record, Britain has thriving private insurance industry where 55% of the population purchases private  health insurance for expedited convenience.  The problem in America is even the "cadillac" plans have denigrated so much in terms of the quality of care they will pay for that our purchase power for "expedited" care is not any better than public plans.  That is why those who want the personal attention that no longer exists, find boutique medicine doctors who don't take any private insurance. ( I was offered but I can't be a academic and do boutique medicine).


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2011)

Built said:


> It wouldn't work for me either - if it affected my quality of life in any profound way. But this didn't affect (it's affect in this case, not effect) me very much - I was still learning how to train, and doing LOTS of upright rows and wide-grip, behind the neck pulldowns (thank you, mainstream bullshit) so my shoulder was bugging me. I had the x-ray the same day I saw the doctor (whom I saw an hour after I called his office), and the CT-scan two weeks later.
> 
> As I said, this particular problem was chronic, from an injury that had happened more than five years earlier. Old, low-level annoyance. *I certainly wouldn't want to bump someone *with an acute injury so I can have a high-priced x-ray to confirm something I already knew. At this point, we were just trying to eliminate the remote possibility I had a SLAP tear - which I did not.
> *
> ...


If we get old or poor then we have medicare/medicaid to bail us out here in the states. because thats worked out so well for us so far.
rationed health care is not something I'm ok with. and while it wasn't a SLAP tear it could have been, and that does effect standard of living. I've spoken to lots of radiologists and radiology administrators both in the US and in Canada as part of what I do and all of them feel the Canadian system of rationing healthcare is a problem. the fact that a two tiered system is developing in canada shows that rationed healthcare is a problem.


----------



## LAM (Jan 21, 2011)

Zaphod said:


> There would actually be a point to that if the Obama healthcare bill actually was socialized medicine.  Since it isn't...



it's much easier for those against it to say it is..most people don't even know the true meaning of the world socialism.

my main issue with healthcare in the US is why does it have to be for profit? everything else in this country is all about money, why can this one thing not be about it.  

insurance premiums will continue to rise year after year and services will continue to decrease for all but those with the best insurance plans (those that work at billion dollar companies, etc.).

the preventive health-care system in HI is a perfect example of one that could work in just about every state.


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## GearsMcGilf (Jan 21, 2011)

That evil profit motive creates competition, which breeds quality.  We don't really have a healthcare problem in the US.  I don't know anyone who is upset over the quality of their care.  It's more of an insurance problem.  The profit factor isn't what's driving the cost up.  Right now, we either access coverage through our employer or govt.   But, we can't shop around the same way we can for home, auto, or life insurance.  If the government would step out of the way and would allow natural competitive market forces to dictate the cost of health insurance, we probably wouldn't see anywhere near the dramatic increases every year that we have now.


----------



## LAM (Jan 21, 2011)

GearsMcGilf said:


> That evil profit motive creates competition, which breeds quality.



that sounds good in theory but that's not the way it seems to be working.
Blue Cross of CA has been constantly raising rates for the past 2 decades, far above the rate of inflation. 

if the US healthcare system is so great then why do we see such high numbers of preventable illnesses and death in many different categories?  right now the US is ranked #43 while Singapore is #1 in having the lowest infant mortality rates.


----------



## bandaidwoman (Jan 21, 2011)

LAM see my post on infant mortality http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/open-chat/64583-infant-mortality.html

I would not use infant mortality statistic, it is erroneously calculated. Instead, use amendable mortality statistic.....and we still rank at the bottom of all industrialized nations anyway.  


LAM, you are right in theory there should be competition and quality but you don't get it.  There is a *Libertarian doctor's *blog site called DB Medical Rants, and he rails against the  current system of patchwork insurances like I do and he supports what we all already know. 

1. it is not a free market system.  When demand for your product goes down, you lower the price of your product, in the health insurance industry, the price goes up.

2.  The business of health insurance *is not your health,* it is to satisfy their stockholders and profit margins by denying payments to doctors and hospitals ( I know )  Kaiser has great commercials  but there was one of my 35 yr old triathletes male who needed a bone marrow transplant, they would not  let him have it the best facility in Atlanta, ( it is 1 million dollars per transplant ) so he could not self pay.  He ended up going to a far inferior facility that I hated  becasue I knew their outcomes data and he ended dieing there during the initiation phase....Yeah, private insurances really care about your health.  Thank god they no longer will let their patients see us past May, they all have to go to the factory Milll.......

3.  Health insurances  do  not do any research and development , the best and most unbiased research comes from the NIH, ( the evil government) 


And here is the kicker, every single doctor trained in this country drew our salaries from Medicare, I repeat, Medicare when we were student doctors in residency because not a single health insurance company will fund our training  because despite working slave labor wages.....we are very costly since  we learn by over ordering tests and making mistakes. * In essence, every single american doctor who trained in America was funded by a  socialistic  program.....*


----------



## Built (Jan 21, 2011)

bio-chem said:


> If we get old or poor then we have medicare/medicaid to bail us out here in the states. because thats worked out so well for us so far.


With good quality health care you'd want for yourself and loved ones? Really? That's not what I've heard.

It's not what I've heard from my friends in university in the US either, who have bare-bones insurance that doesn't seem to cover them worth shit. A good friend of mine ended up ordering his depression meds online from India because he was going to have to wait so long for an appointment to see his HMO. 

And don't get me started on how hard it is to get a hormone panel run. 


bio-chem said:


> rationed health care is not something I'm ok with. and while it wasn't a SLAP tear it could have been, and that does effect standard of living.


Exactly. At which point, I would have gone through with the surgery I was already scheduled for. What part of that isn't clear? 


bio-chem said:


> I've spoken to lots of radiologists and radiology administrators both in the US and in Canada as part of what I do and all of them feel the Canadian system of rationing healthcare is a problem.


Howso. And what do you qualify as "rationed health care" - are you simply speaking of triage? 


bio-chem said:


> the fact that a two tiered system is developing in canada shows that rationed healthcare is a problem.


No. It shows that people are greedy. 

The way it works here is an ortho can work privately or publicly, or both. 

So, suppose I want to see an ortho for something like a labrum tear, where I'm able to train and work, it's just annoying but I want to find out if I need surgery. The way it used to work, I'd wait perhaps a few months for an appointment to see the specialist, and if I needed surgery, perhaps a few months more for space in the operating theatre.

Now, it's different. I can pay $500 for a consult TODAY, or wait a year to see him for free. I also get bumped to the front of the surgery line if I pay the $500. 

Here's the kicker - I'd see the same ortho either way. 

Guess what happens if I need surgery? Either way, he's also the guy who cuts me. And either way, the surgery is 100% covered by our health plan. 

The fact that this has been allowed just means the ortho gets to charge $500 for an office visit, and the more people pay for this privately, the fewer "public" slots are available for these office visits - which means that instead of everyone having to perhaps wait three months, some folks get in today and some folks wait a year. 

I don't have a problem with private service in Canada - I DO have a problem with our public system being eroded by this dirty practice. If you're a surgeon in Canada and you want to go private for surgical consults, you should have to renounce your right to bill the health plan. The way it is now basically amounts to paying the bouncer to let you in through the back door.


----------



## irish_2003 (Jan 21, 2011)

bio-chem said:


> If we get old or poor then we have medicare/medicaid to bail us out here in the states. because thats worked out so well for us so far.
> rationed health care is not something I'm ok with. and while it wasn't a SLAP tear it could have been, and that does effect standard of living. I've spoken to lots of radiologists and radiology administrators both in the US and in Canada as part of what I do and all of them feel the Canadian system of rationing healthcare is a problem. the fact that a two tiered system is developing in canada shows that rationed healthcare is a problem.



i'm going to school for radiography currently and nationally there is a 1-3 year wait on clinicals after core courses....most like this will lead me to get a mexican language, i mean spanish, degree while waiting.....


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## 1 wolf (Jan 21, 2011)

irish_2003 said:


> i'm going to school for radiography currently and nationally there is a 1-3 year wait on clinicals after core courses....most like this will lead me to get a mexican language, i mean spanish, degree while waiting.....


 
Then you will be able to work in Az CA and NM


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## irish_2003 (Jan 21, 2011)

1 wolf said:


> Then you will be able to work in Az CA and NM



on the contrary......they're invading canada now too......


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## 1 wolf (Jan 21, 2011)

irish_2003 said:


> on the contrary......they're invading canada now too......


 Well its about time. just when you got a handle on the chinese problem


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## GearsMcGilf (Jan 21, 2011)

My rates have gone up 35% in the last two years also.  If I actually had some bargaining power, the way I do with my auto & life insurance company, they probably wouldn't be able to stick it to me.  But, I'm at their mercy as it stands now.

I'm sure there are all kinds of social reasons for the other stats.  We're also one of the fattest, most violent, crime ridden, and drug addicted societies on the planet.


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## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2011)

GearsMcGilf said:


> I'm sure there are all kinds of social reasons for the other stats.  We're also one of the fattest, most violent, crime ridden, and drug addicted societies on the planet.



i like you bro. i really do, but this is just utter stupidity.


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## bandaidwoman (Jan 22, 2011)

the upshot is both systems ration health care, one for budget issues, the other for profit motive.  

And don't listin to radiologists, they are not the front line in health care which is why studies that show doctors that support national health insurance are general surgeons, er docs, family and internal medicine.

Radiologists complain that canadians have to wait six months for an MRI>. Well guess what, most HMOs demand the same thing ( except  the radiologists don't have to shout and argue and beg with the insurance companies like I do.)  The radiologists have never helped me get prior authorizations for imaging scan.  Case in point, I had 40 year old 3 weeks after a tatoo with clincal symptoms of a spinal abscess, a cat scan will miss 20% of them so I want an MRI.  Humana bucked and said he did not have a fever. I told them they are morons since he was on prednisone for his asthma which can disguise a fever.  Anyway, they refused, so I had to admit him to his local hospital for an emergency MRI, ( this local hospital did not have in house MRI) where after he was admitted, a ambulance came to his room and transported him 2 blocks down to an open MRI facility, he had a spinal abscess, unfortunately this local hospital has no neurosurgeon, it took me 2 days to transfer him to a facility that did  .  What  radiologist  dont know is hospital to hospital transer is much harder since the reimbursement for the recieving hospital is much less or nothing whereas if I had gotten the MRI on an outpatient basis, I could have directly admitted him to any neurosurgical hospital.  

Of course, the above scenario, not a single radioloigst deals with this complex shenanigans that private insurance makes us deal with. *Oh, by the way, if he was on medicare he could have instantly gotten the MRI that day.*...

radioligst like private insurance over medicare because they get reimbursed 100 + 30-60% above medicare allowable .  As the ordering physician, I have spent hourse of paperwork, manpower ( hiring extra MAs to do prior auths ) so that by the time I have done all the adminstrative work for them, I have probably made as much on that patient visit as medicare.  I can tell you right now, if medicare pays me 100 dollars I spend 3 dollars on admininstrative cost, if Humana pays me 130 dollars ( 30% above medicare allowable fro the same visit) I spen 38 dollars on adminstrative crap. Not  a single radiologist knows that, most other specialists that have to rent or own office space, pay for personel to get permission to order tests , etc does.

http://www.amiexpat.com/2009/08/27/universal-healthcare-taking-on-the-myths/  good article by an american living abroad


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

GearsMcGilf said:


> My rates have gone up 35% in the last two years also.  If I actually had some bargaining power, the way I do with my auto & life insurance company, they probably wouldn't be able to stick it to me.  But, I'm at their mercy as it stands now.
> 
> I'm sure there are all kinds of social reasons for the other stats.  We're also one of the fattest, most violent, crime ridden, and drug addicted societies on the planet.



2 years.....shit it's been going up way longer than that.
In fact Motorola out sourced to another company back during the late 80's because of medical expenses. 

Worked during the Bush sr. years and damn they were lean days.


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## DOMS (Jan 22, 2011)

GearsMcGilf said:


> I'm sure there are all kinds of social reasons for the other stats.  We're also one of the fattest, most violent, crime ridden, and drug addicted societies on the planet.





bio-chem said:


> i like you bro. i really do, but this is just utter stupidity.



I'm going to back this up. Your post GearsMcGilf, with the exception of the fattest part, is no where near a fact. Not even close.


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## bandaidwoman (Jan 22, 2011)

Once again, since most people think my sentiments are due to being liberal, just surf the blog site by an ultra-Libertarian doctor DBMedical rants who provides a good non right wing, non left wing critique.


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## Glycomann (Jan 22, 2011)

i will not get into all the arguments for and against.  I'll just leave you with one histogram in point of fact. US pays more for health care than any other country based on % of GDP. I can produce similar charts from other organizations such as the World Health Organization etc. You can attack the source but I can put up 10 just like it from other organizations.


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## bandaidwoman (Jan 22, 2011)

Glycomann said:


> i will not get into all the arguments for and against.  I'll just leave you with one histogram in point of fact. US pays more for health care than any other country based on % of GDP. I can produce similar charts from other organizations such as the World Health Organization etc. You can attack the source but I can put up 10 just like it from other organizations.



Yes  but FOx will let you believe it is due to our illegal immigrant problem.  
But according to the Rand institute that is not true, I borrowed from the link above



> The costs do get passed along, but a 2006 RAND study “estimates that in the United States about $1.1 billion in federal, state and local government funds are spent annually on health care for undocumented immigrants aged 18 to 64. That amounts to an average of $11 in taxes for each U.S. household.  In contrast, a total of $88 billion in government funds were spent on health care for all non-elderly adults in 2000.”



Here is another interesting stastitic,. a majority of personal bankruptcies are due to health care bills  in this country and a majority ( I think 3/4)  had medical insurance at the time and they were mostly middle class citizens with college degrees....

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/bankruptcy_study.html

*This is the only first world that bankrupts its citizens with medical costs even when they carry health insurance *and sends our citizens begging for money from strangers when they have a catastrophic illness that requires a transplant.


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## Zaphod (Jan 22, 2011)

Here's an interesting read.

Why change? The US has the 37th best health care system in the world - National Extreme Weight Loss | Examiner.com


----------



## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

Glycomann said:


> I can produce similar charts from other organizations such as the World Health Organization etc. You can attack the source but I can put up 10 just like it from other organizations.



Your chart failed.


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## DOMS (Jan 22, 2011)

bandaidwoman said:


> Once again, since most people think my sentiments are due to being liberal.





bandaidwoman said:


> Yes  but FOx will let you believe it is due to our illegal immigrant problem.



Yes, because _nothing _you say would make anyone think that.


----------



## Glycomann (Jan 22, 2011)

min0 lee said:


> Your chart failed.



Yes you have a strikingly compelling 3 word argument.


----------



## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

Glycomann said:


> Yes you have a strikingly compelling 3 word argument.



Duh, really your chart failed because it's blank.


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## Glycomann (Jan 22, 2011)

min0 lee said:


> Duh, really your chart failed because it's blank.



works for me. Try the original article.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/2/38980580.pdf


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

Glycomann said:


> i will not get into all the arguments for and against.  I





Glycomann said:


> Yes you have a strikingly compelling 3 word argument.



  okkkkkk....

I'll take the high road and help you out here with the images.


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

Glycomann said:


> works for me. Try the original article.
> 
> http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/2/38980580.pdf



As a leader in posting dead links and pictures here I can tell that it may work for you but not others, thanks for the link.


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## GearsMcGilf (Jan 22, 2011)

DOMS said:


> I'm going to back this up. Your post GearsMcGilf, with the exception of the fattest part, is no where near a fact. Not even close.



You don't think we have an obesity problem in the USA?  We are definitely one of the fatter nations, as well as violent among the developed world.  For the latter, I'm speaking of developed/civilized societies, not uncivilized, such as central and south american or the muslim world.


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## DOMS (Jan 22, 2011)

GearsMcGilf said:


> You don't think we have an obesity problem in the USA?  We are definitely one of the fatter nations, as well as violent among the developed world.  For the latter, I'm speaking of developed/civilized societies, not uncivilized, such as central and south american or the muslim world.



Huh, Gears, that why I said, "with the exception of the fattest part." 

Keep in mind when your comparing to first world countries is that a lot of them like to lie about their statistics. Also, keep in mind that some countries simply cannot be compared. Or do you think that Icelan with a native population of just 250,000 should be compared with a nation of 307 million people?

But yes, in general I'd agree with your statement. The single biggest mitigating factor of violence in first world countries is how many third world people have moved there. Of which the US and France have the most. 

So yeah, I'd agree.


----------



## Curt James (Jan 22, 2011)

DOMS said:


> I've actually seen this, but it was 5 kids by 4 fathers and new Durango.



There are definitely people who know how to work a system.


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## HialeahChico305 (Jan 22, 2011)

GearsMcGilf said:


> My rates have gone up 35% in the last two years also.  If I actually had some bargaining power, the way I do with my auto & life insurance company, they probably wouldn't be able to stick it to me.  But, I'm at their mercy as it stands now.
> 
> I'm sure there are all kinds of social reasons for the other stats.  We're also one of the fattest, most violent, crime ridden, and drug addicted societies on the planet.






bio-chem said:


> i like you bro. i really do, but this is just utter stupidity.



His post is pretty accurate;  living in denial I see Mr. Bio-Chem?


----------



## HialeahChico305 (Jan 22, 2011)

DOMS said:


> Huh, Gears, that why I said, "with the exception of the fattest part."
> 
> Keep in mind when your comparing to first world countries is that a lot of them like to lie about their statistics. Also, keep in mind that some countries simply cannot be compared. Or do you think that Icelan with a native population of just 250,000 should be compared with a nation of 307 million people?
> 
> ...




Latinos constituted 16 percent of the nation's total population since 2009, you get rid of that small percentile of people and the problem remains the same.


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## irish_2003 (Jan 22, 2011)

HialeahChico305 said:


> Latinos constituted 16 percent of the nation's total population since 2009, you get rid of that small percentile of people and the problem remains the same.



not true when you consider the number that come here and get on public assistance and abuse our benefit system.....Los Angeles county attributes 1.6billion last year to benefits paid to illegals......


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## DOMS (Jan 22, 2011)

HialeahChico305 said:


> Latinos constituted 16 percent of the nation's total population since 2009, you get rid of that small percentile of people and the problem remains the same.





irish_2003 said:


> not true when you consider the number that come here and get on public assistance and abuse our benefit system.....Los Angeles county attributes 1.6billion last year to benefits paid to illegals......



What Irish said. Plus, I wasn't just singling out Mexicans. I meant _all _third world illegals.

Plus, I wouldn't say the problem remains the same. According to what you've written, it would fix 16% of the problem. That's quite a bit.


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## GearsMcGilf (Jan 22, 2011)

Okay, someone's gotta say it.  Take out the illegal mexicans and it wouldn't make too big of a dent in US violent crime stats.  Take a look at the FBI Uniform Crime Report for 2009 and look at the # of arrests for murder and robbery for blacks compared to whites.  Now, consider that blacks make up roughly 13% of the US population.  There's the real problem, which doesn't get a lot of airtime in the media.

Table 43 - Crime in the United States 2009


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

GearsMcGilf said:


> Okay, someone's gotta say it.  Take out the illegal mexicans and it wouldn't make too big of a dent in US violent crime stats.  Take a look at the FBI Uniform Crime Report for 2009 and look at the # of arrests for murder and robbery for blacks compared to whites.  Now, consider that blacks make up roughly 13% of the US population.  There's the real problem, which doesn't get a lot of airtime in the media.
> 
> Table 43 - Crime in the United States 2009




This just backfired. 

In 2009, 69.1 percent of all individuals arrested were white, 28.3 percent were black, and 2.6 percent were of other races.

Of all juveniles (individuals under the age of 18) arrested in 2009 in the Nation, 65.9 percent were white, 31.3 percent were black, and 2.8 percent were of other races.

Nearly 70 percent (69.7) of all adults arrested in 2009 were white, 27.8 percent were black, and 2.5 percent were of other races.

White individuals were more often arrested for violent crimes than individuals of any other race, accounting for 58.7 percent of those arrests.

The percentages of adult white and black arrestees for murder were similar, with 49.6 percent being white, and 48.4 percent being black.

Black juveniles accounted for 51.6 percent of juvenile arrests for violent crimes.

For property crime, white juveniles accounted for 63.9 percent of juvenile arrestees.

Of juvenile arrestees charged with driving under the influence, most were white (92.0 percent).

White juveniles accounted for 76.7 percent of juveniles arrested for arson in 2009.


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## 1 wolf (Jan 22, 2011)

irish_2003 said:


> not true when you consider the number that come here and get on public assistance and abuse our benefit system.....Los Angeles county attributes 1.6billion last year to benefits paid to illegals......


 
I hate to say it but this statement is correct.wiring money to mexico is a big thing happen every month


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## irish_2003 (Jan 22, 2011)

DOMS said:


> Sorry, min0, have to kill your post.
> 
> Most criminal statistics by race lump Mexicans in with whites. Usually for political, or politically correct, reasons.
> 
> The statistics are out there, but you're not going to find them from sources such at the *New York Times*.



far left liberal agenda news commentating agency


----------



## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

> Originally Posted by DOMS
> Sorry, min0, have to kill your post.
> 
> Most criminal statistics by race lump Mexicans in with whites. Usually for political, or politically correct, reasons.
> ...



No problem at all, if I am wrong I have no problem with it.
 I actually didn't see how this made sense. Whites having such a high percentage.
I didn't realize they categorized Mexicans as whites.


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## DOMS (Jan 22, 2011)

irish_2003 said:


> far left liberal agenda news commentating agency



I deleted my post because I misread what min0 wrote. I thought he was saying that illegal Mexicans don't cause much damage to society. However, he's still wrong in that black do a lot of damage, per capita that is.




min0 lee said:


> This just backfired.
> 
> In 2009, 69.1 percent of all individuals arrested were white, 28.3  percent were black, and 2.6 percent were of other races.



Black accounted for 28.3% of all crime, yet the only amount to around 12.3% of the population. That's over 200% of the amount of crime that the should cause.

Which is fucked up.

"But, oh! They're only accused of causing so much crime because the White Man is pinning it on them!"  Bullshit. Take Atlanta, Georgia. It's just a tad over 61% black. It has a high amount of black police officers, lawyers, judges, and politicians. The Chief of Police is black. So is the mayor. Yet it suffers over twice the burglaries, rapes, and murders of Los Angeles.

And just to round things out, blacks account for 50% of all murdered police officers.

The idea that any particular race should commit no crime is nonsensical, but it should at least be line with percentage of the population that any given race amounts to.


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## DOMS (Jan 22, 2011)

min0 lee said:


> No problem at all, if I am wrong I have no problem with it.
> I actually didn't see how this made sense. Whites having such a high percentage.
> I didn't realize they categorized Mexicans as whites.



It's mostly done at the behest of legalized Mexicans. They don't want the number to be displayed prominently because it's far above the per capita.

Consider this: have you ever filled out an application and see one of the options under race as "Caucasian (non-Hispanic)"?


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## GearsMcGilf (Jan 22, 2011)

Yes, Min-O.  My point is that adult blacks make up 48% of all murders.  Blacks under the age of 18 account for 51% of all murders.  That's a lot for 13% of the population.  This is just in the murder and non negligent homocide category.  In every other category, they represent 200-300% more of the stats than they should for their % of the population.


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

I didn't think the FBI would be so PC....they shouldn't be.


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

I hate to say this....I joke around about race and I do hate racism but from a person who lived all over NYC with the exception of Staten Island most minority neighborhoods are crime ridden.
No one wants to live in a black or hispanic neighborhood with good reason....crime.


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## 1 wolf (Jan 22, 2011)

min0 lee said:


> I hate to say this....I joke around about race and I do hate racism but from a person who lived all over NYC with the exception of Staten Island most minority neighborhoods are crime ridden.
> No one wants to live in a black or hispanic neighborhood with good reason....crime.


 
Live in long island


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## DOMS (Jan 22, 2011)

min0 lee said:


> I hate to say this....I joke around about race and I do hate racism but from a person who lived all over NYC with the exception of Staten Island most minority neighborhoods are crime ridden.
> No one wants to live in a black or hispanic neighborhood with good reason....crime.



Acknowledging the realities of the different effects of the various faces does not make one racist, though minorities and politically correct people would have you believe otherwise.


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

1 wolf said:


> Live in long island



Do you mean if I live in Long Island or you live in Long Island?
I currently live in the Bronx....in a decent part of the Bronx.


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## 1 wolf (Jan 22, 2011)

min0 lee said:


> Do you mean if I live in Long Island or you live in Long Island?
> I currently live in the Bronx....in a decent part of the Bronx.


Bronx has a decent section
Oh i'm not one of those broke mexicans and Yes I have a house on long island


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

There is good in every race but damn the bad ones sure give people bad impressions.


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## 1 wolf (Jan 22, 2011)

min0 lee said:


> There is good in every race but damn the bad ones sure give people bad impressions.


 Yep it only take one in the news and it don't matter if you're a doctor or lawyer, people will hold onto they're pocketbooks and cross the street just so they don't have to pass you..


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

1 wolf said:


> Bronx has a decent section
> Oh i'm not one of those broke mexicans and Yes I have a house on long island



Yes, all places do. 
You would be so surprised when you actually travel to different places.
Washington DC may look beautiful but go a few blocks and your in a different world.

Thier aren't too many Mexicans in LI, in fact 10 years ago you wouldn't see more than 5 in NYC....now they are all over the place.


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

1 wolf said:


> Yep it only take one in the news and it don't matter if you're a doctor or lawyer, people will hold onto they're pocketbooks and cross the street just so they don't have to pass you..



This I can understand.....but if you notice in the NYC papers you always see a certain race committing a certain crime ..I pointed this out to Lee and she is in denial.
It's in the paper everyday.


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## 1 wolf (Jan 22, 2011)

min0 lee said:


> Yes, all places do.
> You would be so surprised when you actually travel to different places.
> Washington DC may look beautiful but go a few blocks and your in a different world.
> 
> Thier aren't too many Mexicans in LI, in fact 10 years ago you wouldn't see more than 5 in NYC....now they are all over the place.


 
Only a few of us you can count us on one hand at the country club.
A whole new world all wanting to be your pal to show they really like brown people


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

1 wolf said:


> Bronx has a decent section
> Oh i'm not one of those broke mexicans and Yes I have a house on long island



Riverdale, Pelham, Throggs Neck....you would be surprised.
Long Island is not without it's ghettos buddy.


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## 1 wolf (Jan 22, 2011)

min0 lee said:


> Riverdale, Pelham, Throggs Neck....you would be surprised.
> Long Island is not without it's ghettos buddy.


I say its ghetto free* (turns a blind eye to it)


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

1 wolf said:


> I say its ghetto free* (turns a blind eye to it)



Wishful thinking.....taxes are too high and most of the work is in the city so in order to get there one would have to drive an hour or more.

The rich can will good there.


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## 1 wolf (Jan 22, 2011)

min0 lee said:


> Wishful thinking.....taxes are too high and most of the work is in the city so in order to get there one would have to drive an hour or more.
> 
> The rich can will good there.


Yea it does keep the poor out and in check


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

1 wolf said:


> Yea it does keep the poor out and in check



So you claim to not only be well educated but you're also rich.

Selling tamales must be good business out there in LI.


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## 2 wolf (Jan 22, 2011)

1 wolf said:


> Bronx has a decent section
> Oh i'm not one of those broke mexicans and Yes I have a house on long island



Tio pepe sold you his house? I must visit more often, iwill be soon there armando.


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## 1 wolf (Jan 22, 2011)

min0 lee said:


> So you claim to not only be well educated but you're also rich.
> 
> Selling tamales must be good business out there in LI.


 
Define Rich....It depends how you make your money. Stereotypical types is all most expect.Heaven forbid some brown person made something of themselfs .No never that can't happen


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

1 wolf said:


> Define Rich....It depends how you make your money. Stereotypical types is all most expect.Heaven forbid some brown person made something of themselfs .No never that can't happen



This could help you out.


*The Upper Class*
Upper class values include higher education, the accumulation and maintenance of wealth, the maintenance of social networks and the power that accompanies such networks. Children of the upper class are typically schooled on how to manage this power and channel this privilege in different forms. It is in large part by accessing various edifices of information, associates, procedures and auspices that the upper class are able to maintain their wealth and pass it to future generations.[15]

[edit]*The Middle Class*
The middle class places a greater emphasis on income. The middle class views wealth as something for emergencies and it is seen as more of a cushion. This class comprises people that were raised with families that typically owned their own home, planned ahead and stressed the importance of education and achievement. They earn a significant amount of income and also have significant amounts of consumption. However there is very limited savings (deferred consumption) or investments, besides retirement pensions and homeownership. They have been socialized to accumulate wealth through structured, institutionalized arrangements. Without this set structure, asset accumulation would likely not occur.[15]

[edit]*The Lower Class*
Those with the least amount of wealth are the welfare poor. Wealth accumulation for this class is to some extent prohibited. People that receive AFDC transfers cannot own more than a trivial amount of assets, in order to be eligible and remain qualified for income transfers. Most of the institutions that the welfare poor encounter discourage any accumulation of assets.[15]


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

I'm middle class, which are you?


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## 1 wolf (Jan 22, 2011)

min0 lee said:


> This could help you out.
> 
> 
> *The Upper Class*
> ...


*sarcastic tone implied*  not 2 or 3


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

1 wolf said:


> *sarcastic tone implied*  not 2 or 3



Bullshit.


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## irish_2003 (Jan 22, 2011)

min0 lee said:


> I'm middle class, which are you?



i'm middle class, but i choose to live without many luxuries that i definitely CAN afford.....i'm not to be counted in the entitlement generation

pawlenty/ryan 2012!!!


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

irish_2003 said:


> i'm middle class, but i choose to live without many luxuries that i definitely CAN afford.....i'm not to be counted in the entitlement generation
> 
> pawlenty/ryan 2012!!!



Same here.


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## 1 wolf (Jan 22, 2011)

min0 lee said:


> Bullshit.


 Whatever you say.


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## Curt James (Jan 22, 2011)

DOMS said:


> (snip) *Mexicans*. I meant *all third world illegals*.





GearsMcGilf said:


> (snip) *blacks *(snip) There's the real problem



What does all that matter? Eventually a _white _guy is going to push a button and create_ this.

_




YouTube Video











This planet is ######.


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## DOMS (Jan 22, 2011)

Curt James said:


> What does all that matter? Eventually a _white _guy is going to push a button and create_ this._
> 
> This planet is ######.



 They've had them for 65 years and hasn't used it with the exception of why it was created: to end a world war. 

If a nuke is used, it won't be by a white guy unless it's in retaliation for a nuke by someone else.


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## Curt James (Jan 22, 2011)

DOMS said:


> They've had them for 65 years and hasn't used it with the exception of why it was created: to end a world war.
> 
> If a nuke is used, it won't be by a white guy *unless it's in retaliation for a nuke by someone else.*



Who _cares _who fires the first one?

I'm just saying that there are far worse things to worry about than neighborhood crime and people sucking up your tax dollars.


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## DOMS (Jan 22, 2011)

Curt James said:


> I'm just saying that there are far worse things to worry about than neighborhood crime and people sucking up your tax dollars.



It's more of a threat than terrorism and happens every minute of every day. 

Plus, it's fixable _now_.


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## Curt James (Jan 22, 2011)

Curt James said:


> I'm just saying that there are *far worse  things* to worry about than neighborhood crime and people sucking up your  tax dollars.



For instance...
























DOMS said:


> It's more of a threat than terrorism and happens every minute of every day.
> 
> Plus, it's fixable _now_.



What is the likelihood of _annexing _Mexico, legalizing marijuana and coke, and building from there?

*http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...85&q=annexing+mexico&aq=f&aqi=g1g-v5&aql=&oq=*


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## Curt James (Jan 22, 2011)

YouTube Video


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## DOMS (Jan 22, 2011)

Curt James said:


> What is the likelihood of _annexing _Mexico, legalizing marijuana and coke, and building from there?



That place is so bad that even Mexicans don't want it.


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## Curt James (Jan 22, 2011)

We could fix it. 

_And _there are at least a few things that don't _need _fixing.


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## GearsMcGilf (Jan 22, 2011)

min0 lee said:


> Yes, all places do.
> You would be so surprised when you actually travel to different places.
> Washington DC may look beautiful but go a few blocks and your in a different world.
> 
> Thier aren't too many Mexicans in LI, in fact 10 years ago you wouldn't see more than 5 in NYC....now they are all over the place.



Werd.  I'm all the way down in B'ham, AL.  Until 15 years ago, you hardly saw any Messicans, but they are every fukkin where nowadays.  Nobody does their own yard work anymore.  You can drive by almost any apartment complex and there will be 20-30 guys standing out front looking for work, trying to waive you in as you pass.  Those same apt complexes used to be filled with whites and black.  But, before I moved to China last year, I hired a Mexican broad to clean up my house.  When I took her back to her apt, it was like driving over the border.  Nothing but Mexicans there.  All the signs at Home Depot and Lowes are now in both English and Spanish.  It's weird how the demographics have changed so drastically over the last 10-15 years.


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## GearsMcGilf (Jan 22, 2011)

Curt James said:


> We could fix it.
> 
> _And _there are at least a few things that don't _need _fixing.



If they all looked like this, you sure as fuk wouldn't hear any complaints outta me!


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## 2 wolf (Jan 22, 2011)

DOMS said:


> That place is so bad that even Mexicans don't want it.



obvious you have no see our beaches . is paradise.


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## min0 lee (Jan 22, 2011)

GearsMcGilf said:


> If they all looked like this, you sure as fuk wouldn't hear any complaints outta me!



They look like that on TV but the one's in NY look like this.


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## 1 wolf (Jan 22, 2011)

min0 lee said:


> They look like that on TV but the one's in NY look like this.


 american mexican too much of the good life


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## GearsMcGilf (Jan 22, 2011)

Werd.  Time to cut back on the cheap burritos and refried beans.


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## 2 wolf (Jan 22, 2011)

that looks like tia lola and her sister maria


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## irish_2003 (Jan 22, 2011)

Mexicans make me feel tall.......(i'm only 5'5")


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## GearsMcGilf (Jan 22, 2011)

irish_2003 said:


> Mexicans make me feel tall.......(i'm only 5'5")



Damn, that's gotta suck.  But, it is easier to get jacked when you're on the short side.


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## 2 wolf (Jan 22, 2011)

irish_2003 said:


> Mexicans make me feel tall.......(i'm only 5'5")



jajjajajajajaja im a 6 feet mexican. you are one short kid


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## irish_2003 (Jan 22, 2011)

2 wolf said:


> jajjajajajajaja im a 6 feet mexican. you are one short kid



you must be from south mexico then......you're not an indian who speaks spanish who lives in the north part and claims mexican then


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## 2 wolf (Jan 22, 2011)

irish_2003 said:


> you must be from south mexico then......you're not an indian who speaks spanish who lives in the north part and claims mexican then


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## HialeahChico305 (Jan 23, 2011)

irish_2003 said:


> not true when you consider the number that come here and get on public assistance and abuse our benefit system.....Los Angeles county attributes 1.6billion last year to benefits paid to illegals......



To be more specific, my comment was towards the violence problem in america. My comment had nothing to do with illegals , that %16 represented the total latinos in america ( legals/illegals I assume according to the chart where i got it from).


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