# The difference between large ab muscles and lean ab muscle?



## GOtriSports (Dec 1, 2008)

Hello everyone, I have been doing a decent amount of ab work for a while and my abs are starting to show some but the problem is that since I used to be so fat I have some loose skin of my stomach that is not going to go away. 

So I started wondering if there is something different I should be doing in my training to work on actually building larger ab muscles instead of trying to lean out and show what I currently have. This is a cheesy example to use but if you look on the cover of the movie 300 Leonidas has some pretty seriously big abs. I feel like that might be my only hope of really showing my abs. 

For a while I was doing an entire day dedicated to abs twice a week (about an hour a day) my abs were pretty strong but they were not growing much. Now with my current training I only directly hit abs twice a week. Once on my horizontal push/pull day (Cable crunches 3x12) and then on lateral push/pull days (Weighted Decline sit ups, planks). I would think to really build muscle in the abs the more resistance you have the better. 

So do you think I am doing an adequate amount of training to really build ab muscle? I am eating enough calories right now, about 2700 on non workout days and 3200 on lifting days (carb cycles). I just began on the routine I am doing now, so I am not expecting the results for a while but I do want to make sure I am hitting the abs enough on the routine. I do hit my core in other parts of my routine (RDL's, Squats, and a few other compound movements)


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## readyformore (Dec 1, 2008)

haha I'm in the same situation =\ i lost 90 pounds since january, but in like spikes, like 30 pounds 1 month, stay the same for 1-2 20-30 pounds and so on so on btw yeah hey at least you don't have a crap load of stretch marks (im guessing)


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## GOtriSports (Dec 1, 2008)

readyformore said:


> haha I'm in the same situation =\ i lost 90 pounds since january, but in like spikes, like 30 pounds 1 month, stay the same for 1-2 20-30 pounds and so on so on btw yeah hey at least you don't have a crap load of stretch marks (im guessing)



I do have a few stretch marks but they are not noticeable unless you are looking for them luckily


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## readyformore (Dec 1, 2008)

haha yeah see haha mine are noticeable lol btw i shouldent of been 270 and lifting weights so much, made my skin STRETCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH lolllll gaining weight, growing, and gaining muscle.... WTF ha i have them on my side's, back, deltoids, arm pits was starting to get them on my bicep's till i lost weight =(


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## Merkaba (Dec 1, 2008)

My abs respond quickly to brutal workouts.  I can tell a difference in one or two workouts.  I usually do this to get back in the swing of things after a while off.  Such as the last two weeks.  I've been doing an ab day once a week.  I'm trying to get my abs back to where they were in college.  We were doing rough ab workouts at the end of weight training sessions.  We would do sit ups, not crunches, all the way up with no one holding the feet.  Usually 30 or more.  Then we would do bicycles for 2 minutes. That was it for the team.  My uper abs used to look like an eagle beak.  Man i was proud of them.  My team mates called me ab-man.  I would many times do my own workouts besides the coaches stuff.  I never did weighted work back then though.  

My ab days lately have looked like this:

after warming up with a few sets of knee raises on a bench...

Hanging leg raises, legs straight all the way up to the pull up bar, controlled, not a swing but more of a gymnast fold,slow release down. 
2x 10 or more.  The second half of each set I try to hold the legs out parallel to the floor, like a gymnast.  (they always have good abs and I try to feel like I'm on the rings while doing these)
maybe some hanging raises in the upright hanging raises dedicated station, optional
Pulldowns, two or three sets of ten
optional floor weighted crunches.  i get on a mat in the middle of the universal, put a double rope on a low cross cable and hold at the shoulders and crunch. Flavor with weight as desired.
In the back extension station/machine i do side crunches.  Usually about 10 normal and then one legged, twisting.  I don't know the count as i do them to a specific song.  probably about 20 reps per side.  one set or two depending on what else I've done.
I've been doing my old "legendary abs" routine which is plenty enough.  I got it from a book I ordered back in like 95.  It goes like so:
set of 30 straight legged vertical reverse crunches.  legs at 90, straight to the ceiling.  15 then 15 with legs lowering to the floor before going vertical.
45 seconds rest.  another set then no rest into alternate twisting crunches.  about 30.  45 rest, then another set then no rest into regular crunches or straight to fast half crunches where your just aim to go nose to ceiling.  Fast for 30 or more.  

I've really been trying to do everything slower and more controlled lately and I love the results.  (This is for all of my workouts.  My shoulders look great as I do warm ups raises with 15s, slow and nice, while mr moron beside me is body throwing 50lbs with shoulders that look like pin cushions.  I love it because they can't say youre showing out when youre working out with 15's or curling with 20's but looking sharp on a bulk gaining 10 lbs)

I always stretch my abs after a workout as well.  back bridges over a ball or "cobras" on the mat.   

Over training? According to most.  I wouldnt recommend this workout to anyone else but I do it.
I will slowly break up my workouts over the next few weeks to twice a week and about half of this work but I like the results right now and it works for me.


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## Merkaba (Dec 1, 2008)

Gotri, from your pics it doesnt look like you have much to worry about.  I mean in my opinion to get much tighter youre going to have to really start fighting your body's survival instincts which is really hard, depending on genetics.  I don't see alot of loose skin from here.


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## AKIRA (Dec 2, 2008)

I still dont understand the point of an "ab" day.

This is coming from someone that used to have ab days too.  And no, I received no results other than DOMS.


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## min0 lee (Dec 2, 2008)

A keg and a six pack


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## CORUM (Dec 2, 2008)

300 abs???? AIRBRUSH!!! lol


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## KelJu (Dec 2, 2008)

I train abs like I train squats, and the results were incredible. Same intensity, frequency, and volume. 

Weighted crunches with 200lbs for 5 reps FTW!


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## Merkaba (Dec 2, 2008)

AKIRA said:


> I still dont understand the point of an "ab" day.
> 
> This is coming from someone that used to have ab days too.  And no, I received no results other than DOMS.


 

Well like I said I've been doing ab days for a few weeks and will for the next few as I find its a good way for me to shock them.  I don't get much doms and I get rock hard abs.  As I said, I wouldn't really suggest my workout but I suggest a dedicated session.



CORUM said:


> 300 abs???? AIRBRUSH!!! lol




Made for many a comedy talk show skit.  I was thinking the same thing.


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## GOtriSports (Dec 2, 2008)

Merkaba said:


> Gotri, from your pics it doesnt look like you have much to worry about.  I mean in my opinion to get much tighter youre going to have to really start fighting your body's survival instincts which is really hard, depending on genetics.  I don't see alot of loose skin from here.



The loose skin is there trust me, I just do my best in the pictures to pose so it doesn't show much. The worst is when I am sitting down because then I look like I have fat rolls again but it is just skin. 

But that is exactly why I do NOT want to lean out anymore on my stomach. The more I lean out at this point I think the more skin I am going to have. I want to fill out, but with muscle. I guess I will try and do more and more heavy resistance exercises since doing the long ab days 2 - 3 times a week seemed to build some muscle but not massive amounts. If I had tighter skin in that area my abs would show very well, however I cannot make anymore visual progress without really trying to bulk up the muscles there. 

I know that there was a lot of air brushing in 300, I was just trying to use it as an example because I didn't want to look up a picture. This may be a decent example of a goal for me:
http://www.ab-core-and-stomach-exercises.com/images/killer-abs-12.jpg

Obviously he is very lean but his abs stick out more than most (I assume because the muscles are just larger). My hope is that if I build large ab muscles it will fill out some of my loose skin and show more definition. 

For a while I will try and 1 hard resistance ab exercise 3 times a week after my normal workout for the day and see if this helps

EDIT: I also do not really get any serious doms from hard ab work. 
Merkaba do you think doing a dedicated abb day maybe once every other week would be a good idea while doing a small amount of resistance ab training 3 days a week?


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## Lobo2009 (Dec 2, 2008)

I train abs every 4-5 days.  Do 2 exercises with only one all out set per exercise (rest pause DC style).

Also have 3 pairs of exercises I rotate each workout, varying equipment rep range etc over each of the 3 exercises.  I find its works well and doesnt take long.


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## Arnold (Dec 2, 2008)

KelJu said:


> I train abs like I train squats, and the results were incredible. Same intensity, frequency, and volume.
> 
> Weighted crunches with 200lbs for 5 reps FTW!



why?


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## AKIRA (Dec 2, 2008)

I think he was kidding.


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## Built (Dec 2, 2008)

I do weighed crunches on a bosu ball with a 75-lb dumbbell on my chest, 3x8.

If I can do that, I'm sure there are some big guys out there who can do at least double that.


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## Skib (Dec 3, 2008)

140lb dumbbell on my chest? eeeek


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## P-funk (Dec 3, 2008)

McGill's research shows that those who have poor endurance in the 'core' musculature are more likely to have a back problem than those who have more strength.

also, if you are doing weighted spine flexion.....you are really exposing the spine to a high amount of force in a very unstable position.

patrick


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## fufu (Dec 3, 2008)

GOtriSports said:


> Hello everyone, I have been doing a decent amount of ab work for a while and my abs are starting to show some but the problem is that since I used to be so fat I have some loose skin of my stomach that is not going to go away.
> 
> So I started wondering if there is something different I should be doing in my training to work on actually building larger ab muscles instead of trying to lean out and show what I currently have. This is a cheesy example to use but if you look on the cover of the movie 300 Leonidas has some pretty seriously big abs. I feel like that might be my only hope of really showing my abs.
> 
> ...



The abs of the guys in 300 were digitally altered.


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## AKIRA (Dec 3, 2008)

P-funk said:


> McGill's research shows that those who have poor endurance in the 'core' musculature are more likely to have a back problem than those who have more strength.
> 
> also, if you are doing weighted spine flexion.....you are really exposing the spine to a high amount of force in a very unstable position.
> 
> patrick



I have been wanting to read into this more and more.  Got any links?

I constantly argue with people on the importance of ab training vs. core training.

Truth be told, the leanest people Ive ever seen dont do many crunches or situps.  (swimmers, dancers)


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## GOtriSports (Dec 3, 2008)

P-funk said:


> McGill's research shows that those who have poor endurance in the 'core' musculature are more likely to have a back problem than those who have more strength.
> 
> also, if you are doing weighted spine flexion.....you are really exposing the spine to a high amount of force in a very unstable position.
> 
> patrick



Well I have a fairly solid core already. For almost a year now I have been doing planks (right, left, front) and am up tp holding each for 2:00 Minutes now for sets of 3. I also do squats and deads which help build up the core. 

My question here is not really about functionality though. I am interested in making my abs show and I believe that the only way to do that with my extra skin is to work on building the abs muscles. Because no matter how much I lean out the abs won't show the way I want because my skin is just not tight around them. If I have larger muscles it will fill out the skin more and thus my abs would be more visible.

I was thinking abs would probably work similar to other muscles in your body. Do the proper resistance training, diet, and rest and the muscle will increase in size


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## P-funk (Dec 3, 2008)

AKIRA said:


> I have been wanting to read into this more and more.  Got any links?
> 
> I constantly argue with people on the importance of ab training vs. core training.
> 
> Truth be told, the leanest people Ive ever seen dont do many crunches or situps.  (swimmers, dancers)



I don't have any links...you have to buy the book and read it.  it has all the research and practical application in it.

Stuart McGill - Low Back Disorders


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## P-funk (Dec 3, 2008)

GOtriSports said:


> Well I have a fairly solid core already. For almost a year now I have been doing planks (right, left, front) and am up tp holding each for 2:00 Minutes now for sets of 3. I also do squats and deads which help build up the core.
> 
> My question here is not really about functionality though. I am interested in making my abs show and I believe that the only way to do that with my extra skin is to work on building the abs muscles. Because no matter how much I lean out the abs won't show the way I want because my skin is just not tight around them. If I have larger muscles it will fill out the skin more and thus my abs would be more visible.
> 
> I was thinking abs would probably work similar to other muscles in your body. Do the proper resistance training, diet, and rest and the muscle will increase in size




1) you have to be lean to see your abs.

2) if you are saying that no matter how lean you get your abs wont show because of lose skin, you are either (a) completely fooling yourself about what level of body fat you are presently at or (b) you were previously overweight/obese, stretched out your skin and will need some sort of corrective surgery to fix that problem.

patrick


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## GOtriSports (Dec 3, 2008)

P-funk said:


> 1) you have to be lean to see your abs.
> 
> 2) if you are saying that no matter how lean you get your abs wont show because of lose skin, you are either (a) completely fooling yourself about what level of body fat you are presently at or (b) you were previously overweight/obese, stretched out your skin and will need some sort of corrective surgery to fix that problem.
> 
> patrick




I was previously obese, that is why I am having the problem. I have had my BF down to 9.7% before (not perfectly accurate but within 1%). I am currently sitting around between 10 and 11%. I can see my abs just not the way I want to. I can feel them beneath the loose skin and they feel exactly how I wish they would look, but the sagging skin gets in the way. SO you are saying no other option besides cosmetic surgery to battle the loose skin?


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## P-funk (Dec 3, 2008)

if the skin is stretched and has lost its elasticity, then it is stretched.  That is something that surgery can fix, but I have never heard of it just all of a sudden going back to normal after a period of time.  Sorry bud.

patrick


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## CowPimp (Dec 4, 2008)

GOtriSports said:


> I was previously obese, that is why I am having the problem. I have had my BF down to 9.7% before (not perfectly accurate but within 1%). I am currently sitting around between 10 and 11%. I can see my abs just not the way I want to. I can feel them beneath the loose skin and they feel exactly how I wish they would look, but the sagging skin gets in the way. SO you are saying no other option besides cosmetic surgery to battle the loose skin?



Keep in mind too, that very few people achieve the ab visibility you might be thinking of.  Magazine cover models dehydrate themselves, diet down for those shots, and have their images photoshopped.  They don't look like that year round.


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