# Will Non-Christians go to Hell?



## Rocco32 (Dec 2, 2005)

This is a poll for those who profess Christ as their Saviour. Non-christians can respond in the forum but not take the poll please. 

And this is not a debate on if Christ existed and died or anything. Let's assume it's all true, I want to focus on the reality of salvation.


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## dougnukem (Dec 2, 2005)




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## THEUNIT(XXL) (Dec 2, 2005)

IT's not treu.


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## tucker01 (Dec 2, 2005)

Being a non Christian and believing this is all true.  I feel that non christians would not go to hell.  I don't think there faith would be the sole judgement, but there work while they were here, would play a significant role.


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## THEUNIT(XXL) (Dec 2, 2005)

It's bullshit


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## THEUNIT(XXL) (Dec 2, 2005)

IainDaniel said:
			
		

> Being a non Christian and believing this is all true.  I feel that non christians would not go to hell.  I don't think there faith would be the sole judgement, but there work while they were here, would play a significant role.


And what role is that?


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## Nick+ (Dec 2, 2005)

"This is a poll for those who profess Christ as their Saviour"---there will be a fair few of those going to hell, I'm sure.


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## Vieope (Dec 2, 2005)

_Oh we are going to burn in hell all right. The real question is how we gonna burn in it. 
Molotov style, the quick and efficient way?  Marshmallow style, impaled and teased in small burns? There are so many ways. :bounce: _


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## THEUNIT(XXL) (Dec 2, 2005)

Nick+ said:
			
		

> "This is a poll for those who profess Christ as their Saviour"---there will be a fair few of those going to hell, I'm sure.


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## MyK (Dec 2, 2005)

if your non christien, then you dont believe in hell.....then how can you go to hell??


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## Rocco32 (Dec 2, 2005)

IainDaniel said:
			
		

> Being a non Christian and believing this is all true.  I feel that non christians would not go to hell.  I don't think there faith would be the sole judgement, but there work while they were here, would play a significant role.


Cool, thanks Iain. I agree they have work while they are here, it's not in vain they believe.




			
				Nick said:
			
		

> "This is a poll for those who profess Christ as their Saviour"---there will be a fair few of those going to hell, I'm sure.


Why would that be Nick? What is your reasoning behind this. And all this is assuming there really is a hell.



			
				Myk said:
			
		

> if your non christien, then you dont believe in hell.....then how can you go to hell??


Most religions believe in a concept of hell or something similar. Besides, I would like to hear how non-christians weigh in on the mindset of Christians who believe w/o accepting Christ they would be going to hell.


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## MyK (Dec 2, 2005)

Rocco32 said:
			
		

> Most religions believe in a concept of hell or something similar. Besides, I would like to hear how non-christians weigh in on the mindset of Christians who believe w/o accepting Christ they would be going to hell.




uumm, there is no hell!

 there is no heaven, no god, no jesus, no angels, no demons!!!  non of that shit you waste all your time worrying about and praying and missing football to go to church!!


I hate to break it too you but its one big story created to control the masses into thinking what the power elite wanted them to think!

sorry!


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## Vieope (Dec 2, 2005)

_Hell doesnt exist. I never even think about some god judging me when I die. _


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## Nick+ (Dec 2, 2005)

Originally Posted by Nick
"This is a poll for those who profess Christ as their Saviour"---there will be a fair few of those going to hell, I'm sure.
Why would that be Nick? What is your reasoning behind this. And all this is assuming there really is a hell.

Some people (politicians for example) adopt the mantle of 'Christianity' to cover up their more than dubious/'immoral{?}' acts.......

I was never baptised (my parents decided it should be my choice  ) I've got no religion. I go into old( medieaval mainly) churches only to savour the architecture, their age, and also oddly enough the faith that got them built in the 1st place.{So yes , I do have respect for the older types of Christianity....doesn't mean I'd join up though!}

I may have no religion, but I'm still convinced the soul is not snuffed out when we die, we will all be held to account for what we have done here(in this lifetime)......once we die. So maybe there is some sort of hell waiting ........  

Only one way of finding out.


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## NeilPearson (Dec 2, 2005)

I don't think their is enough biblical evidence to support the idea that hell exists anyway.


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## god hand (Dec 2, 2005)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Hell doesnt exist. I never even think about some god judging me when I die. _




Only if you knew how bad their waiting for you............


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## dougnukem (Dec 2, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> I don't think their is enough biblical evidence to support the idea that hell exists anyway.



You mean a whole book in the Bible isn't enough for you?


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## GFR (Dec 2, 2005)

No living being will go to hell, just like no child will ever get a toy from Santa on X-Mas.


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## Nick+ (Dec 2, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> I don't think their is enough biblical evidence to support the idea that hell exists anyway.



The bible has been rewritten, re-translated, and interpreted in about every way possible, to suit the needs and aspirations of the people at any time......(Same no doubt goes for the Koran and the Torah and others).


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## MyK (Dec 2, 2005)

dougnukem said:
			
		

> You mean a whole book in the Bible isn't enough for you?


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## Vieope (Dec 2, 2005)

_Why would someone believe in the bible anyway?  _


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## Nick+ (Dec 2, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> No living being will go to hell, just like no child will ever get a toy from Santa on X-Mas.



Hey Foreman, I don't disagree with you , but you think some people are just going to run riot here and not be held to account? That may be the case, I just hope not......


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## THEUNIT(XXL) (Dec 2, 2005)

MyK said:
			
		

>


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## lnvanry (Dec 2, 2005)

I would like to think that it would pretty uncompassionate of God to reject over 60% of the world's population b/c they aren't Christian...I sure there are plenty of good jews/hindus/etc. out there.

 I disagree with my church's doctrine from time to time


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## NeilPearson (Dec 2, 2005)

dougnukem said:
			
		

> You mean a whole book in the Bible isn't enough for you?



Then it should be easy to come up with some biblical quotes that prove hell exists.


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## GFR (Dec 2, 2005)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> I would like to think that it would pretty uncompassionate of God to reject over *60%* of the world's population b/c they aren't Christian...I sure there are plenty of good jews/hindus/etc. out there.
> 
> I disagree with my church's doctrine from time to time


Try more like 75%


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## THEUNIT(XXL) (Dec 2, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> Then it should be easy to come up with some biblical quotes that prove hell exists.


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## lnvanry (Dec 2, 2005)

you can't take the Bible so literately IMO...Creationists and literalist are radical in there own way.

 The book was written thousands of years ago in different language which has been translated dozens of time....I prefer to look at the context


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> Then it should be easy to come up with some biblical quotes that prove hell exists.


Other than these, there aren't any:
*(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell* (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).

*(2) Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny* (Hebrews 9:27).

*(3) Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them* (John 3:16, 36, etc.).

*Key Passages About Hell*

*(1) Hell was designed originally for Satan and his demons* (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10).

*(2) Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ* (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8).

*(3) Hell is conscious torment.*


Matthew 13:50 ???furnace of fire???weeping and gnashing of teeth???
Mark 9:48 ???where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched???
Revelation 14:10 ???he will be tormented with fire and brimstone???
*(4) Hell is eternal and irreversible.*


Revelation 14:11 ???the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night???
Revelation 20:14 ???This is the second death, the lake of fire???
Revelation 20:15 ???If anyone???s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire???


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## lnvanry (Dec 2, 2005)

people who take these quotes literately are nutz


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> I would like to think that it would pretty uncompassionate of God to reject over 60% of the world's population b/c they aren't Christian...I sure there are plenty of good jews/hindus/etc. out there.
> 
> I disagree with my church's doctrine from time to time


1. they are rejecting Him.
2. I think it is pretty unreasonable to expect to be able understand why God does what he does. 

What we think is fair or uncompassionate is totally irrelevant.

just sayin'


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> people who take these quotes literately are nutz


So, how do you take "lake of fire" figuratively?


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## GFR (Dec 2, 2005)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> people who take these quotes literately are nutz


or just brain dead


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## Nick+ (Dec 2, 2005)

pepper are you a christian?


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## Dale Mabry (Dec 2, 2005)

I am going to hell, but my faith has nothing to do with it.  I doubt, if hell exists, that a person's religious affiliation will have nearly as much to do with their fate than their actions, hence, alot of you folks will be joining them.


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

Yeah, it's better to have no foundation for your beliefs and just define God to be however you feel he should be.


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

Nick+ said:
			
		

> pepper are you a christian?


Yes.

I wish Foreman would just stay out of ONE of these threads so a conversation can go on without the name calling.


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## Nick+ (Dec 2, 2005)

Not sure about the name calling!        Right you are a Christian Pepper- that helps clarify matters.


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## GFR (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> I wish Foreman would just stay out of ONE of these threads so a conversation can go on without the name calling.


Its open chat brother.

Feel free to bash, edit or delete me in the sports Forum when you wish 

EDIT: BITE ME


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## lnvanry (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> So, how do you take "lake of fire" figuratively?


 its symbolism.....I think of the practically all of the old testament and a substantial portion of the new testament as poetic narratives that should be interpreted by its underlying meaning...not lakes of fire.

 If someone found a small piece of an article from the Philly newspaper in 2000 years and it read "Eagles strip the Bears of all championship hopes"...That person might think of bird stripping or killing a bear????  Clearly a literal interpretation is off base here.  

 IMO a lot of holy scripture from all religions is sensationalized and dramatized.  Lets not forget that modern day Bible was cut as pasted together by the papacy at the birth of the middle ages....There are plenty of gospels about Jesus that were omitted b/c it didn't reflect the papacy's interest


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## dougnukem (Dec 2, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> Then it should be easy to come up with some biblical quotes that prove hell exists.


Matthew 5:28-30 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

2 Peter 2:3-5 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 

 4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them into gloomy dungeons* to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;*


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## lnvanry (Dec 2, 2005)

still quoting...


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## dougnukem (Dec 2, 2005)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> still quoting...



My quotes were not meant for you, but for the individual that asked for them.  I realize you don't think using quotes from a Christian Bible in a thread about Christianity is allowable.  So feel free to scroll past the biblical quotes.


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## lnvanry (Dec 2, 2005)

10 4


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## BigDyl (Dec 2, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Its open chat brother.
> 
> Feel free to bash, edit or delete  me in the sports Forum when you wish


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## redspy (Dec 2, 2005)

I'd rather end up in hell than with a bunch of Christians.  So bring on the Lake of Fire


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## maniclion (Dec 2, 2005)

Maybe I want to go to "Hell".  What if I like dark mysterious gothic dungeon looking things better than fluffy cloudy, white heavenly things?  Being surrounded by a bunch of Goody-Goody Gumdrop Gimps sounds more like hell to me than being around some awesome Demon Biker Ghouls and a bunch of hot micro-bikini clad Dolls, maybe a halo of glimmering gold with a harp doesn't appeal to me as much as a helmet of smoldering iron and hellish looking electric guitar.


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## Tier (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> So, how do you take "lake of fire" figuratively?



You see pepper, they used to be literal. Then as people evolve more and our intellect increases everything becomes "figurative" because what it actually says doesn't make sense. 

When they were writing the bible they chose to make everything figurative instead of just saying it for no reason except to confuse, because when you're listing the do's and donts of life you want to be VERY VERY VAGUE, right?   

Forget about the commandments though, those aren't figurative, they just chose to makes those literal... Because .... Those are....    i give up..


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## Arnold (Dec 2, 2005)

gotta love the closed minded christian faith. 

I really feel sorry for the millions of people in cultures that never even get exposed to christianity, I guess all of these people will all just burn in hell.


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## Dale Mabry (Dec 2, 2005)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> I really feel sorry for the millions of people in cultures that never even get exposed to christianity, I guess all of these people will all just burn in hell.




...Or just be fortunate enough not to have their federal policies based on it.


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## dougnukem (Dec 2, 2005)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> ...Or just be fortunate enough not to have their federal policies based on it.



Hey, we resemble that remark.


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## silencer (Dec 2, 2005)

Is this thread a Joke? I can't believe anyone could HONESTLY believe that someone who doesn't have the Christian faith will go to "Hell" where the red man is with his pointy tail and pitch fork. I find this thread half hilarious and half disturbing.

If anyone wants to watching something theological, watch/Download "The God Who Wasn't There"

Since the age of about 13 I had to go to Church on Monday, sometimes Wednesday, Friday and of Course Sunday, my school was an old British school, so by no means am I some random atheist who is annoyed about the post, but common, LOL.


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## dougnukem (Dec 2, 2005)

Rocco32 said:
			
		

> This is a poll for those who profess Christ as their Saviour. Non-christians can respond in the forum but not take the poll please.
> 
> *And this is not a debate on if Christ existed and died or anything. Let's assume it's all true, I want to focus on the reality of salvation.*



This is how this thread is supposed to be discussed, silencer.  He is just wanting to have a discussion about whether or not folks who don't follow the path of Christ will go to Hell.  That's all.  It's what Open Chat is for.


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## silencer (Dec 2, 2005)

ok, Assuming that every little bit in the bible is true, which if you did a little bit of reading on the historical motives behind the bible you might realise that a huge proportion of what is said in it is a lot of crap. BUT assuming it is all true, I honestly cannot believe God would send a person to hell who hasn't even heard of Christianity, People in the Amazon Rain Forrest, Parts of Africa. I mean so they got sent down here without a chance simply because no missionary bothered going there to tell them that The Son of God existed. 
I mean common, I PERSONALLY Believe that hell does not exist, and even if you don't have a faith and don't believe in God, even if you murder, hate, kill, rape, you will still go to heaven. I know some of you are like "WTF? Rapists? go to heaven..fuck off" . God gave us one precious gift, and that is FREE WILL, are you saying people who are chemically unbalanced, or psychopaths who feel nothing will go to "Hell" I mean THAT'S THE WAY THEY ARE. God will forgive any man of any deed, for the people who he killed  suffer only temporarily and then go up to "The Kingdom of Heaven" ...Personally at the end of the day if your faith makes you a better person and a better individual then that's brilliant, but I'm sorry, Religion has caused more trouble then good in my opinion.   Just my 2 cents.


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## dougnukem (Dec 2, 2005)

silencer said:
			
		

> ok, Assuming that every little bit in the bible is true, which if you did a little bit of reading on the historical motives behind the bible you might realise that a huge proportion of what is said in it is a lot of crap. BUT assuming it is all true, I honestly cannot believe God would send a person to hell who hasn't even heard of Christianity, People in the Amazon Rain Forrest, Parts of Africa. I mean so they got sent down here without a chance simply because no missionary bothered going there to tell them that The Son of God existed.
> I mean common, I PERSONALLY Believe that hell does not exist, and even if you don't have a faith and don't believe in God, even if you murder, hate, kill, rape, you will still go to heaven. I know some of you are like "WTF? Rapists? go to heaven..fuck off" . God gave us one precious gift, and that is FREE WILL, are you saying people who are chemically unbalanced, or psychopaths who feel nothing will go to "Hell" I mean THAT'S THE WAY THEY ARE. God will forgive any man of any deed, for the people who he killed  suffer only temporarily and then go up to "The Kingdom of Heaven" ...Personally at the end of the day if your faith makes you a better person and a better individual then that's brilliant, but I'm sorry, Religion has caused more trouble then good in my opinion.   Just my 2 cents.



Actually, the Bible onyl refers to people who have heard the word and turn from the word, will only then face judgement.  Those folks, like the ones you pointed out, ie:in rain forests and what not, basically don't have the same judgement passed onto them.  I'll be right back with the exact scripture, as it's been awhile and my scripture memory is fading.


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## silencer (Dec 2, 2005)

ok man, you are obviously a devout christian, which tbh, like I said if that makes you a better person and a better person for others then   . But I already stated my opinion. But would you believe in Jesus if the priest who "enlightened" you to Jesus touched you up and abused you, ok this is a small example, but a just one, I sure as hell wouldn't I wouldn't want to share the same faith as a Pedo, surely he should go to hell. If I was a young boy that would be my logical reasoning.

But lets take the normal scenario today, you are a normal person, living in a reasonably civilised society and you are offered a whole array of beliefs and faiths. I think you should pick the faith which will make you a better person, not the faith that says "Hay buddy you were given a shot to pick us, if you don't you can fuck right off" . I would like to think God is a ever forgiving person and a Great God rather then a prick who picks and chooses on 1 bad decision. If everything is true and you go up for "judgement" God/Jesus should forgive you for making the "wrong" choice.


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## dougnukem (Dec 2, 2005)

silencer said:
			
		

> ok man, you are obviously a devout christian, which tbh, like I said if that makes you a better person and a better person for others then   . But I already stated my opinion. But would you believe in Jesus if the priest who "enlightened" you to Jesus touched you up and abused you, ok this is a small example, but a just one, I sure as hell wouldn't I wouldn't want to share the same faith as a Pedo, surely he should go to hell. If I was a young boy that would be my logical reasoning.
> 
> But lets take the normal scenario today, you are a normal person, living in a reasonably civilised society and you are offered a whole array of beliefs and faiths. I think you should pick the faith which will make you a better person, not the faith that says "Hay buddy you were give a shot to pick us, if you don't you can fuck right off" . I would like to think God is a ever forgiving person and a Great God rather then a prick who picks and chooses on 1 bad decision.



Actually, I'm in the same boat as you as far as being a devout Christian.  I was one, once upon a time, but some things changed that.  Nowadays, I'm a believer of a higher power, but not sure where I fall into this place.


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## silencer (Dec 2, 2005)

dougnukem said:
			
		

> Actually, I'm in the same boat as you as far as being a devout Christian.  I was one, once upon a time, but some things changed that.  Nowadays, *I'm a believer of a higher power*, but not sure where I fall into this place.



Yea, that's me for sure, I'm not even religious anymore (Even though the subject does fascinate me). By no length am I athiest, I truely believe there is a God, with every bone in my body. I'm just not going to take up "religion" like I stated before in my personal opinion it causes more bad then good.

My REAL personal opinion of Jesus though, not the religion christiantiy, is that Jesus did exist and he did not lie about being the son of God. WE ARE ALL THE SON OF GOD. He was just obviously a very spiritual man who was able to inspire people to follow him..


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Its open chat brother.
> 
> Feel free to bash, edit or delete me in the sports Forum when you wish


You need to re-check the Mod listing.


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## NeilPearson (Dec 2, 2005)

Before we have a meaningful discussion of what the bible says hell is we have to know the original word 'Hell' is the noun form of the old Anglo-Saxon verb 'hele' which meant to hide, conceal, or bury something.

The bible most commonly translates SHEOL and HADEES as hell which is appropriate since these words mean the place of the death or the state of being dead or the grave.



			
				Pepper said:
			
		

> Other than these, there aren't any:
> *(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell* (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).



2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

First of all I see no mention of the words heaven or hell.  I see everlasting life and shame and everlasting contempt.

Contempt - The feeling or attitude of regarding someone or something as inferior, base, or worthless; scorn. 
The state of being despised or dishonored; disgrace. 
Open disrespect or willful disobedience of the authority of a court of law or legislative body. 

I see support that there is punishment, dishonored, disgrace but no mention of pain or hell fire.




			
				Pepper said:
			
		

> *(2) Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny* (Hebrews 9:27).



Hebrews 9:27 - Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Again no mention of hell, pain or fire... just judgement



			
				Pepper said:
			
		

> *(3) Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them* (John 3:16, 36, etc.).



"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Again no mention of heaven or hell... just eternal life or perishing.  Perish does not equal fire, pain



			
				Pepper said:
			
		

> *Key Passages About Hell*
> 
> *(1) Hell was designed originally for Satan and his demons* (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10).



Finally something a little meatier...

Matthew 25:41 - "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

You will notice that the word hell doesn't appear here and the eternal fire is prepared for the devil and his angels - not people.  The eternal fire here is the same one that is mentioned in your other quote - 

Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever

(no mention of people being tormented at all here - just the devil)

and

Rev 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

You will notice here the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his demons.  Also death and Hades (hell) gave up their dead to be judged... wait a second, all the dead are in hell already - before being judged?  Of course because hell is just the state of being dead.  Then they are brought back to life, judged and then what happens death and Hades (hell) are thrown into the lake of fire.  This lake of fire is not hell, otherwise how could hell be thrown into it?  The lake of fire was prepared for satan and his demons and then hell, death, satan and non-believers are thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed in the second death.  There is no mention of them suffering forever.



			
				Pepper said:
			
		

> *(2) Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ* (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8).



Matt 13:41 - 50 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Sure they are thrown into the fiery furnace to be destroyed along with death and hell.  And there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth as they are being judged and thrown in but it doesn't say that the pain is eternal.  In fact the penalty of sin is death.  It was for Adam and Eve and it was for everyone else in the bible.  It doesn't say the penalty for sin is eternal torture.

Rom 6:23 "???the wages of sin is death???."
Rom 5:12 "???sin entered into the world and death by sin???."
Jas 1:15 "??? and sin when it is finished brings forth death???."
Jer 31:30 "But every one shall die for his own sin???."

This is why when Jesus died on the cross it could pay for sin.  If the punishment for sin was eternal pain, then Jesus would have to have paid that but he didn't he died.



			
				Pepper said:
			
		

> *(3) Hell is conscious torment.*
> 
> 
> Matthew 13:50 ???furnace of fire???weeping and gnashing of teeth???





again furnace of fire and not hell... already addressed.



			
				Pepper said:
			
		

> [*]Mark 9:48 ???where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched???



And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where " 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

Yay, finally one that uses the word hell and fire in the same passage and ties them together.  If you look at the word that was translated to be hell here though it was GEHENNA.  GEHENNA was a real place on Earth.  They kept fires burning there eternally and it was a place of destruction and death.  Corpses were burnt there to destroy them and there were even child sacrifices.  This was a place to destroy bodies... not to torture them.  Jesus was using GEHENNA as a reference because his disciples understood what GEHENNA was... and it has since been lost in the translation.



			
				Pepper said:
			
		

> [*]Revelation 14:10 ???he will be tormented with fire and brimstone???
> 
> Revelation 14:11 ???the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night???
> Revelation 20:14 ???This is the second death, the lake of fire???
> Revelation 20:15 ???If anyone???s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire???



more references to the lake of fire and not hell

Jesus went to hell when he died

Acts 2: 27: "Thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell: neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption." Verse 31: "His soul was not left in Hell, neither his flesh did see corruption," 

Job prayed to go to hell to escape the punishment he was faced with on Earth.

Ecclesiastes 9:10

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in *the grave*,  *where you are going*, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. 

"the grave" here was Sheol in Hebrew... this same word is translated elsewhere as "hell"

Everyone goes there


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## NeilPearson (Dec 2, 2005)

maniclion said:
			
		

> Maybe I want to go to "Hell".  What if I like dark mysterious gothic dungeon looking things better than fluffy cloudy, white heavenly things?  Being surrounded by a bunch of Goody-Goody Gumdrop Gimps sounds more like hell to me than being around some awesome Demon Biker Ghouls and a bunch of hot micro-bikini clad Dolls, maybe a halo of glimmering gold with a harp doesn't appeal to me as much as a helmet of smoldering iron and hellish looking electric guitar.



Why not... Job wanted to go there to get some rest


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## NeilPearson (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> So, how do you take "lake of fire" figuratively?



It is used mostly in Revelations where everything is figuratively.  It is also mentioned as Gehenna which was a real place of fire on Earth that people were burned... but the burning only lasted until they were burned up... not eternal.  It was used as lots of comparisions in the bible when they compared it to the second death after judgement - but only because of its destructive power, not because of the physical pain involved.


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

To be honest, I have always understood Christian teachings to be that hell is the to not be in the presence of God. Whether there will be torment or not, clearly a world without God would not be a place I'd want to live.

You said there was not mention of Hell in the Bible and that is simply ridiculous.


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## NeilPearson (Dec 2, 2005)

dougnukem said:
			
		

> Matthew 5:28-30 (New International Version)
> New International Version (NIV)
> Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
> 
> ...


*

There is definitely a punishment in the bible for sin... hell or death or the grave... depends on how you translate the word but they all mean the same thing.

No fire *


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

I still can't beleive that you believe the Bible but don't interpret those passages to mean that Hell will be a pretty awful place.

Seems you are going well out of your way to fit the Bible into your view of how things should be.


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## maniclion (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> clearly a world without God would not be a place I'd want to live.


In most theistic religions there would be no world without God or God's.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

Rocco32 said:
			
		

> This is a poll for those who profess Christ as their Saviour. Non-christians can respond in the forum but not take the poll please.
> 
> And this is not a debate on if Christ existed and died or anything. Let's assume it's all true, I want to focus on the reality of salvation.


 Why would hell even apply to a non-christian? I happen to worship Bigfoot, and in the Bigfoot bible it specifically states that all non believers will spend eternity shaving Bigfoots balls and eating his dingleberries. This is not a debate of whether or not Bigfoot exists, lets assume he does. So do you think all those who don't believe in Bigfoot are in for an eternity of teabaggery? 

Do you see where i'm going with this?


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## NeilPearson (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> To be honest, I have always understood Christian teachings to be that hell is the to not be in the presence of God. Whether there will be torment or not, clearly a world without God would not be a place I'd want to live.
> 
> You said there was not mention of Hell in the Bible and that is simply ridiculous.



You're right.  I should have qualified that.  The common idea of what hell is isn't biblical (in my opinion).  The way I read it, hell (death) is the unconscious state of being dead and everyone (followers, sinners, Jesus) all have to go there.  When judgement comes you either live forever or are destroyed.

Hell would suck but its not really a place you "live" - you are dead, you don't think and it's not really a permanent punishment.  Just a place to hand out until you are judged.


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

What passage tells you believers will go to hell?


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## NeilPearson (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> Why would hell even apply to a non-christian? I happen to worship Bigfoot, and in the Bigfoot bible it specifically states that all non believers will spend eternity shaving Bigfoots balls and eating his dingleberries. This is not a debate of whether or not Bigfoot exists, lets assume he does. So do you think all those who don't believe in Bigfoot are in for an eternity of teabaggery?
> 
> Do you see where i'm going with this?



That makes no sense.  If God exists, you don't get to by-pass his rules just because you don't believe in him.

Hmmm, I don't believe in gravity so I should be okay to jump out of a plane right?


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> That makes no sense. If God exists, you don't get to by-pass his rules just because you don't believe in him.
> 
> Hmmm, I don't believe in gravity so I should be okay to jump out of a plane right?


Well done.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

I have a serious question.

Why is it that Christian beliefs apply to non-Christians (as this thread implies), but Islamic, Buddhism, or Jewish beliefs don't apply to non belevers of their faiths (in this case Christians)? Surely Christians do not follow what is outlined in the Islamic faith, so are you succeptible to the consequences of non-Islamic belief and destined to spend eternity in what they see as "hell"? If not, then why would a non-Christian suffer the consequences that Christians see is a result of not believing?

 God is the sole creator of everything, so what happens to people who follow other organized religions? Are Islamic or Buddhist followers destined to burn in hell because the beliefs of their religion are not outlined in the Christian bible? Or does God say "well you believed in a religion, so no hell for you"

 These aren't satirical questions, I'm being serious.


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> I have a serious question.
> 
> Why is it that Christian beliefs apply to non-Christians (as this thread implies), but Islamic, Buddhism, or Jewish beliefs don't apply to non belevers of their faiths (in this case Christians)? Surely Christians do not follow what is outlined in the Islamic faith, so are you succeptible to the consequences of non-Islamic belief and destined to spend eternity in what they see as "hell"? If not, then why would a non-Christian suffer the consequences that Christians see is a result of not believing?
> 
> ...


The Bible is clear...you accept Christ as you Lord and Savior, you go to Heaven. You don't, you don't.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> That makes no sense. If God exists, you don't get to by-pass his rules just because you don't believe in him.
> 
> Hmmm, I don't believe in gravity so I should be okay to jump out of a plane right?


 So which religion is correct in their belief system? They all differ, so is Christianity the only one that got it right? The Jewish faith does not accept Jesus as the messiah, so are they going to hell? Surely they can't by-pass His rule, or does God bend the rules? If there is a sole creator who has outlined specific rules in the Bible, what does he do about other religions? Can you tell us which religion is the correct one, making all other religions incorrect.


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## NeilPearson (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> What passage tells you believers will go to hell?



Ecclesiastes 9:10

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. 

"the grave" here was Sheol in Hebrew... this same word is translated elsewhere as "hell"

Also there are accounts of other good bible people going to hell or like Job hoping to go to hell.  And then before judgement hell gives up its dead to be judged.  If there were just bad people in hell... what would the point be?

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ifhellisreal.htm


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> The Bible is clear...you accept Christ as you Lord and Savior, you go to Heaven. You don't, you don't.


 So if the bible is not the book of your religion, you go to Hell?


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## NeilPearson (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> So which religion is correct in their belief system? They all differ, so is Christianity the only one that got it right? The Jewish faith does not accept Jesus as the messiah, so are they going to hell? Surely they can't by-pass His rule, or does God bend the rules? If there is a sole creator who has outlined specific rules in the Bible, what does he do about other religions? Can you tell us which religion is the correct one, making all other religions incorrect.



That's the tricky part.  Follow one and the rest say you are screwed


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> So which religion is correct in their belief system?
> They all differ, so is Christianity the only one that got it right?
> The Jewish faith does not accept Jesus as the messiah, so are they going to hell?


Christianity
Yes
Yes


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> Yes
> Yes
> Yes


   So are you telling me all rabbis, monks and other figures who devote their lives to their religion are going to hell simply because they chose to give their lives to the "wrong" religion? That's the biggest crock of shit i've ever heard.


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## NeilPearson (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> So if the bible is not the book of your religion, you go to Hell?



According to most Christians - yes

Then again a lot of Christians believe you are screwed if you don't pick the right Christian religion out of all the possible Christian religions too


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> Ecclesiastes 9:10
> 
> Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
> 
> ...


My body will go in the grave. The soul goes to heaven or hell. That passage does not support you position at all.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> Christianity
> Yes
> Yes


 I can't tell if you are being serious or not. Are your answers serious or are you just being sarcastic?


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> Then again a lot of Christians believe you are screwed if you don't pick the right Christian religion out of all the possible Christian religions too


I violently disagree with the the term "a lot." Some do. Most argue about differences and disagree on their importance, but there is little debate on how one is saved.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> According to most Christians - yes
> 
> Then again a lot of Christians believe you are screwed if you don't pick the right Christian religion out of all the possible Christian religions too


 But which belief system is the right one? Which one did God, the sole creator of everything, specify as the correct one?


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> I can't tell if you are being serious or not. Are your answers serious or are you just being sarcastic?


I'm serious. the Bible says those that believe will be saved, others will not.

There is little wiggle room. It is a harsh message but that's what it says.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> I violently disagree with the the term "a lot." Some do. Most argue about differences and disagree on their importance, but there is little debate on how one is saved.


 There is plenty of debate on how one is saved. Who has the correct "Save Yourself Manual" that God wrote? Is this not a valid question to debate?


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> I'm serious. the Bible says those that believe will be saved, others will not.
> 
> There is little wiggle room. It is a harsh message but that's what it says.


 So have you told all your Non-Christian friends, even the ones who follow other religions, that they are destined for hell? Were they upset or did they laugh at you?


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> But which belief system is the right one? Which one did God, the sole creator of everything, specify as the correct one?


Denominations disagree on many things:
Method of baptism
Age of baptism
Predestination - God chose us, rather than we chose God
Age of Communion
Church Government - Baptists govern by the masses, Presbyterians by elected elders.
Creation - 6 literal days or 6 "ages." - this is my favorite one to discuss.
More liberal denominations say homosexuality is OK.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> Denominations disagree on many things:
> Method of baptism
> Age of baptism
> Predestination - God chose us, rather than we chose God
> ...


 What about an orthodox jewish Rabbi? You say he's going to hell, despite the fact that he has devoted his life to the Jewish faith, just like Priests do. But he's going to hell because he's Jewish?


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> So have you told all your Non-Christian friends, even the ones who follow other religions, that they are destined for hell? Were they upset or did they laugh at you?


Yes, but not like that. Telling someone that they are going to Hell is a lousy and inappropriate way to discuss this. Many people do this and it is a shame.

Just read some of the threads on this site, yes, there is plenty of laughter.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> Creation - 6 literal days or 6 "ages." - this is my favorite one to discuss.


 I enjoy debating this as well, but from my experience, most religious people turn to the "but he's god, he can do what he wants" answer, which kills the discussion, and sends it to hell. Christian hell that is.


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> What about an orthodox jewish Rabbi? You say he's going to hell, despite the fact that he has devoted his life to the Jewish faith, just like Priests do. But he's going to hell because he's Jewish?


 
Not because he is Jewish, because he does not accept Christ.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> Yes, but not like that. Telling someone that they are going to Hell is a lousy and inappropriate way to discuss this. Many people do this and it is a shame.
> 
> Just read some of the threads on this site, yes, there is plenty of laughter.


 But surely you would want to "save" someone you loved, so if a loved one was Jewish, how would you approach the subject and reveal their imminent eternity of damnation?


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## dougnukem (Dec 2, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> There is definitely a punishment in the bible for sin... hell or death or the grave... depends on how you translate the word but they all mean the same thing.
> 
> No fire



I just was proving the bible's mention of the existence of hell.  That is what you asked if I'm not mistaken.



			
				NeilPearson said:
			
		

> Then it should be easy to come up with some biblical quotes that prove hell exists.


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## god hand (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> To be honest, I have always understood Christian teachings to be that hell is the to not be in the presence of God. Whether there will be torment or not, clearly a world without God would not be a place I'd want to live.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> Not because he is Jewish, because he does not accept Christ.


 They do not accept Christ as the messiah, is that what you meant?


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> I enjoy debating this as well, but from my experience, most religious people turn to the "but he's god, he can do what he wants" answer, which kills the discussion, and sends it to hell. Christian hell that is.


I personally question the Six 24-hour day interpretation, though I can't deny that this is the most simple interpretation of Genesis.

The Hebrew word for day "yom" is similar to our word day - can me an actual day or a period of time. Hard to envision a 24 hour day with no sun.

I get accused of trying to fit Creation in to Evolution. I am not though. I think macro evolution is crock.


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> They do not accept Christ as the messiah, is that what you meant?


Yes.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> Not because he is Jewish, because he does not accept Christ.


 Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, "Rabbi, eat something.??? But he said to them, ???I have food to eat that you do not know about.??? So the disciples said to one another, ???Surely no one has brought him something to eat?" Jesus said to them, ???My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to complete his work.???
- John 4:31-34

 How come Jesus never corrected people in the Bible when they called him Rabbi? Rabbi is defined as a spiritual leader of a Jewish congregation. You specifically stated that someone of the Jewish faith would go to hell, so what does this mean for Jesus?


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> But surely you would want to "save" someone you loved, so if a loved one was Jewish, how would you approach the subject and reveal their imminent eternity of damnation?


Of course I do. However, beating someone over the head with the threat of hell is not an effective means. Said another way, many may "believe" so that they will not go to hell. That is not what it is about.

If I pointed a gun at you, you'd say "Go Clemson" if I asked you to.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> I personally question the Six 24-hour day interpretation, though I can't deny that this is the most simple interpretation of Genesis.
> 
> The Hebrew word for day "yom" is similar to our word day - can me an actual day or a period of time. Hard to envision a 24 hour day with no sun.
> 
> I get accused of trying to fit Creation in to Evolution. I am not though. I think macro evolution is crock.


 I agree that the perception of time has differed throughout history, but my main argument is that time can not be recorded without two points in spacetime and a means of determining the distance between those two points. Time is linear and has always relied on motion ie. Earth's orbit, the number of oscillations of a Cesium isotope in a vacuum, so my big question is how could God have recorded time (how long creation took) before spacetime existed because the planets and stars were not the first thing to be created.


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, "Rabbi, eat something.??? But he said to them, ???I have food to eat that you do not know about.??? So the disciples said to one another, ???Surely no one has brought him something to eat?" Jesus said to them, ???My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to complete his work.???
> - John 4:31-34
> 
> How come Jesus never corrected people in the Bible when they called him Rabbi? Rabbi is defined as a spiritual leader of a Jewish congregation. You specifically stated that someone of the Jewish faith would go to hell, so what does this mean for Jesus?


Huh? Jesus was a Jew. I did not state that Jews would, per se, go to Hell. I stated that those who rejected Christ would. Since the Jews of His day and the Jews of today, didnt/don't believe, that will be their fate.


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> I agree that the perception of time has differed throughout history, but my main argument is that time can not be recorded without two points in spacetime and a means of determining the distance between those two points. Time is linear and has always relied on motion ie. Earth's orbit, the number of oscillations of a Cesium isotope in a vacuum, so my big question is how could God have recorded time (how long creation took) before spacetime existed because the planets and stars were not the first thing to be created.


I once read a blurb about a theory and always have meant to look it up. The theory is that time is speeding up.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> Of course I do. However, beating someone over the head with the threat of hell is not an effective means. Said another way, many may "believe" so that they will not go to hell. That is not what it is about.
> 
> If I pointed a gun at you, you'd say "Go Clemson" if I asked you to.


 Good point, I just find it hard to imagine that all those who don't follow Christianity go to Hell, even if they have devoted their lives and very existence to the religion they believe in.


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## silencer (Dec 2, 2005)

So let me get this straight, Even though a Jewish person Who loves and devotes his life to God the almighty, helps and heals people but yet does not believe in a HUMAN JEWISH RABBI who SUPPOSEDLY existed 2000 Years will go to hell ? This is just fucking stupid.


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> Good point, I just find it hard to imagine that all those who don't follow Christianity go to Hell, even if they have devoted their lives and very existence to the religion they believe in.


This is the part where I say "God is God and He can do as He pleases" and piss you off.


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## Pepper (Dec 2, 2005)

silencer said:
			
		

> So let me get this straight, Even though a Jewish person Who loves and devotes his life to God the almighty, helps and heals people but yet does not believe in a HUMAN JEWISH RABBI who SUPPOSEDLY existed 2000 Years will go to hell ? This is just fucking stupid.


Thanks. You've really given me something to think about.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> I once read a blurb about a theory and always have meant to look it up. The theory is that time is speeding up.


 That depends on your perception of time, but to record time you need two separate points in spacetime. If people living on Saturn perceived time as how long it took for their planet to orbit the sun, their perception of time would differ from ours, but they would still be able to record time, and to record their perception of time, they would need two fixed points in spacetime and a means of how to differentiate the linear progression they experience while going from one point to the other (time), just as we do, despite the difference in our perceptions of time.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> This is the part where I say "God is God and He can do as He pleases" and piss you off.


 haha, Im not getting pissed off. You've actually kept it a rational debate longer than most people. A lot of people get mad and say something like "How can you not believe? This is rediculous, so pointless to argue"

 I have never said I do not believe in god or a devine creator. I just have many objections to organized religions, their belief systems, and the result of not following them.


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## bio-chem (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> I have a serious question.
> 
> Why is it that Christian beliefs apply to non-Christians (as this thread implies), but Islamic, Buddhism, or Jewish beliefs don't apply to non belevers of their faiths (in this case Christians)? Surely Christians do not follow what is outlined in the Islamic faith, so are you succeptible to the consequences of non-Islamic belief and destined to spend eternity in what they see as "hell"? If not, then why would a non-Christian suffer the consequences that Christians see is a result of not believing?
> 
> ...


im pretty sure in islam they consider us infidel and as such we are screwed unless we convert to the worship of allah in their beliefs.

do i believe people who have never heard the name of Christ are therefore condemned to hell just because they havent accepted Christ? heck no. God would not be a just God if he condemned those to hell who have never heard of Christ.  and i, like many on this forum would not be a believer due to the injustice of God. Everyone of us who have ever lived on this earth will get the opportunity to accept or reject Christ and his teachings. If that be in this life or the life to come we will all get to know Christ. that way we will all be judged according to our knowelege and actions that all may have the opportunity and all may be held accountable before the judgement of God.


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## bio-chem (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> So which religion is correct in their belief system? They all differ, so is Christianity the only one that got it right? The Jewish faith does not accept Jesus as the messiah, so are they going to hell? Surely they can't by-pass His rule, or does God bend the rules? If there is a sole creator who has outlined specific rules in the Bible, what does he do about other religions? Can you tell us which religion is the correct one, making all other religions incorrect.


read James 1:5-6 .  i guarantee if you truely want to know which religioun is right, if you ask God and search out the truth showing you will follow when you know the truth God will reveal which church is true


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> read James 1:5-6 . i guarantee if you truely want to know which religioun is right, if you ask God and search out the truth showing you will follow when you know the truth God will reveal which church is true


 Yes, but this passage is from the Bible. See what I mean? The bible is not the book of all religions.


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## lnvanry (Dec 2, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> *im pretty sure in islam they consider us infidel and as such we are screwed unless we convert to the worship of allah in their beliefs.
> *
> do i believe people who have never heard the name of Christ are therefore condemned to hell just because they havent accepted Christ? heck no. God would not be a just God if he condemned those to hell who have never heard of Christ. and i, like many on this forum would not be a believer due to the injustice of God. Everyone of us who have ever lived on this earth will get the opportunity to accept or reject Christ and his teachings. If that be in this life or the life to come we will all get to know Christ. that way we will all be judged according to our knowelege and actions that all may have the opportunity and all may be held accountable before the judgement of God.


 
 Thats what seperates christianity from the other big 3 monotheistic religions...(some of us) we interpret our books as a contextualist...I've said before and I'll say it again...arab muslims can be fucking crazy w/ all that literal interpretation.


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## bio-chem (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, "Rabbi, eat something.??? But he said to them, ???I have food to eat that you do not know about.??? So the disciples said to one another, ???Surely no one has brought him something to eat?" Jesus said to them, ???My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to complete his work.???
> - John 4:31-34
> 
> How come Jesus never corrected people in the Bible when they called him Rabbi? Rabbi is defined as a spiritual leader of a Jewish congregation. You specifically stated that someone of the Jewish faith would go to hell, so what does this mean for Jesus?


at the time of Jesus Christ the Jews were the people of God. Jesus was born a Jew, and was in fact the greatest Jew ever to live.  It wasnt until the Jews rejected Christ as the Messiah all of their prophets had prophesied about that the followers of Jesus became a separate religion.  remember all of his apostles were Jews and were recognised as such. the apostles continued to go to jewish synogogues to preach the resurected Christ as the Messiah. so Christ had no reason to correct them when they called him rabbi. for in fact he was the greatest rabbi ever.


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## bio-chem (Dec 2, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> Yes, but this passage is from the Bible. See what I mean? The bible is not the book of all religions.


i accept truth any where to be found. while im Christian i own and have read the koran. this passage from the bible says if you lack wisdom ask of God and he will reveal the truth to you. If there is a God and if he has a true religion that he wants us to be members in then it shouldnt be much of a stretch that he will lead us to that religion if that is the desire of our hearts to follow him, as long as we ask with a sincere heart.  sounds pretty logical to me.


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## Big Smoothy (Dec 2, 2005)

Rocco32 said:
			
		

> This is a poll for those who profess Christ as their Saviour. Non-christians can respond in the forum but not take the poll please.
> 
> And this is not a debate on if Christ existed and died or anything. Let's assume it's all true, I want to focus on the reality of salvation.



F*ck you asshole.

Hell is a Judeo-Christian concept.

You tattood, skin-head f*ck.


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## BigDyl (Dec 2, 2005)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> F*ck you asshole.
> 
> Hell is a Judeo-Christian concept.
> 
> You tattood, skin-head f*ck.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 2, 2005)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> F*ck you asshole.
> 
> Hell is a Judeo-Christian concept.
> 
> You tattood, skin-head f*ck.


 wow...


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## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> F*ck you asshole.
> 
> Hell is a Judeo-Christian concept.
> 
> You tattood, skin-head f*ck.



heavy


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## GFR (Dec 3, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> You need to re-check the Mod listing.


Well the Mod listing is not what I'm talking about.

 In open chat the type of responses are much less restricted than in the : Sports, Diet, Training, Anabolic ect sections........open chat is the only place it seems its is allowed to post bull shit................


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## Rocco32 (Dec 3, 2005)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> F*ck you asshole.
> 
> Hell is a Judeo-Christian concept.
> 
> You tattood, skin-head f*ck.


Actually the origins of hell come from the Greek mythologies. So what did you vote?


----------



## P-funk (Dec 3, 2005)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> F*ck you asshole.
> 
> Hell is a Judeo-Christian concept.
> 
> You tattood, skin-head f*ck.




damn....calm the fuck down!


----------



## Bazooka Tooth (Dec 3, 2005)

Do non-Christians even want to goto Heaven? Do they care?
That's the question....

Im not talking about anyone in here, but for someone who isnt religious ask

"Since Im not religious, will I goto Heaven?" Sounds weird to me....I mean it sounds like you believe in Heaven and Hell....and as if you care....so what is it about religion that you don't accept?


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

Heaven sounds pretty dull.


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

I mean..............


----------



## dougnukem (Dec 3, 2005)

Wow, this thread is still going strong depsite someone "wiggin out" for no apparent reason.  I gotta say, I'm learning a lot.  Keep it up.


----------



## The Monkey Man (Dec 3, 2005)

_"You might have heard I run with a dangerous crowd_
_We ain't too pretty we ain't too proud_
_We might be laughing a bit too loud_
_But that never hurt no one_

_Come on Virginia show me a sign_
_Send up a signal I'll throw you the line_
_The stained-glass curtain you're hiding behind_
_Never lets in the sun_

_You got a nice white dress and a party on your confirmation_
_You got a brand new soul_
_And a cross of gold_
_But Virginia they didn't give you quite enough information_
_You didn't count on me_
_When you were counting on your rosary_

_They say there's a heaven for those who will wait_
_Some say it's better, but I say it ain't_
_I'd rather laugh with the sinners- than cry with the saints_
_Sinners are much more fun..._

_And only the good die young"_


_~Billy Joel~_


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 3, 2005)

I've really appreciated what most people have posted. This has been a hot topic in my life lately. Most people at work and in my family believe non-believers will go to hell. 

I've come to the conclusion that is not the truth being a christian myself. I've stopped going to Church and you can imagine the arguments I get into about this among other things LOL.


----------



## silencer (Dec 3, 2005)

Personally I think people can believe/Think whatever they want, I think all people who post on this board live in a free society from what I am aware. Just as long as what they believe/think doesn't hurt themselves or others, then for all I care they could believe that Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny and Non-Cristians burn in hell...fine by me, as long as they don't hurt other people with their beliefs . Although I do appreciate people actually taking time to question beliefs rather then just relying on what they have always been told, questionining and doubting "the facts" of life have always been great stepping stones to reach the truth.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> Other than these, there aren't any:
> *(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell* (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).
> 
> *(2) Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny* (Hebrews 9:27).
> ...


 Ah, here we are.



 Yes, all non-Christians will go to Hell. Not because Christians "are better people", but because of our trust in Jesus Christ, and our acceptance of his gift, that gift being dying on the cross to pay for our sins.


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> Ah, here we are.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, all non-Christians will go to Hell. Not because Christians "are better people", but because of our trust in Jesus Christ, and our acceptance of his gift, that gift being dying on the cross to pay for our sins.


Didn't Christ die on the cross of ALL mankind?


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> I get accused of trying to fit Creation in to Evolution. I am not though. I think macro evolution is crock.


 However, Micro is true, IMO. Because these species are adapting. Not changing, just adapting. They can still interbreed, its the same concept as different races in the human species.


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 3, 2005)

Rocco32 said:
			
		

> Didn't Christ die on the cross of ALL mankind?


 excellent question..


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> However, Micro is true, IMO. Because these species are adapting. Not changing, just adapting. They can still interbreed, its the same concept as different races in the human species.


 adaptation is change. Change within the species.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

Rocco32 said:
			
		

> Didn't Christ die on the cross of ALL mankind?


 Yes, but one must ACCEPT and ACKNOWLEDGE him. Some dude who says, "Oh, Jesus didnt exist" Isnt gonna get a free ride to heaven. He isnt going to get the benefits, did you read when Jesus was talking to that pharisee dude, and he said something to the extent of

 "To enter the Kingdom of Heaven, one must be born again. Not born of flesh, but born of spirit."

 Being "born again" means accepting Christ, and asking The Lord to guide your life. You die to the world, but are alive in Christ alone.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> adaptation is change. Change within the species.


 Not a change OF species though. That is the major point


----------



## silencer (Dec 3, 2005)

I have an interesting question (for me anyways) . Who is more important to you, God the Almighty, or Christ ?


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> Not a change OF species though. That is the major point


 have you ever heard of allopatric and sympatric speciation? Read about Darwin's finches.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

Neither. The Trinity is a veeeery strange concept... All three are God, in actuality, but,  different... not forms, but... Parts, I would say. The Holy Spirit is God's voice inside Christians, Christ is God born as a man, and God is... God. Yahweh.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> have you ever heard of allopatric and sympatric speciation? Read about Darwin's finches.


 Yeah, yeah yeah. I dont put much weight in what Darwin had to say. All of that is really details, not the major point of the argument. And before you make some stupid comment, im in high school environmental science, and my teacher is a frickin 60 year old stoner. you are at least 5 years older than me, with however many intense college courses about evolution, etc, so dont pull some load of crock like "you cant back your shit up..."


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> Yes, but one must ACCEPT and ACKNOWLEDGE him. Some dude who says, "Oh, Jesus didnt exist" Isnt gonna get a free ride to heaven. He isnt going to get the benefits, did you read when Jesus was talking to that pharisee dude, and he said something to the extent of
> 
> "To enter the Kingdom of Heaven, one must be born again. Not born of flesh, but born of spirit."
> 
> Being "born again" means accepting Christ, and asking The Lord to guide your life. You die to the world, but are alive in Christ alone.


 What about those who do not believe that Jesus was the messiah? Do they go to hell? The Jewish faith does not accept Jesus as the messiah.


----------



## silencer (Dec 3, 2005)

So the Son of God was Jesus, so Jesus is God. But it also says we are God's Children so we are sons of God so we are God? How could God Refuse Himself into heaven? Unless he doesn't want to go there.


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> Yeah, yeah yeah. I dont put much weight in what Darwin had to say. All of that is really details, not the major point of the argument. And before you make some stupid comment, im in high school environmental science, and my teacher is a frickin 60 year old stoner. you are at least 5 years older than me, with however many intense college courses about evolution, etc, so dont pull some load of crock like "you cant back your shit up..."


 I was simply trying to give you an example of how a new species forms, so calm down. Do you not put much weight on Darwin because you don't know about his work or because you know about it and don't buy it? Because his work on the Galapagos Islands basically proved evolution due to natural selection.


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

Old politics- slightly relevant.....


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

silencer said:
			
		

> So the Son of God was Jesus, so Jesus is God. But it also says we are God's Children so we are sons of God so we are God? How could God Refuse Himself into heaven? Unless he doesn't want to go there.


 We are not God. People take the term God's children out of concept.  We are not God, merely a creation of Him, made in his image.

 Gococks

 I dont buy what Darwin has to say. It stems from my religion and my own thought process, but some of his stuff seems a little... Not right to me. But, I havent done enough research to pull out different quotes from him and say, Oh, this is wrong, and so is this. So, Id really rather not say anything else about him, cuz I dont want to just be spewing BS.


----------



## silencer (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> We are not God. People take the term God's children out of concept.  *We are not God, merely a creation of Him, made in his image.*



Um ok, let me get this Straight. We are not God. We are a Creation By GOD Made in his Image? So we are a clone of God, but we don't get any privledges?


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> However, Micro is true, IMO. Because these species are adapting. Not changing, just adapting. They can still interbreed, its the same concept as different races in the human species.


  Read this....



> Yeah, yeah yeah. I dont put much weight in what Darwin had to say. All of that is really details, not the major point of the argument.* And before you make some stupid comment, im in high school environmental science, and my teacher is a frickin 60 year old stoner. you are at least 5 years older than me, with however many intense college courses about evolution, etc, so dont pull some load of crock like "you cant back your shit up..." *


 Now how can you expect someone to not ask for evidence of what you stated? You gave your opinion to Pepper, but tried to back your opinion with the fact that species aren't changing, just adapting, and didn't know that you were wrong. So I informed you of speciation and you jump on me. I probably am about 5 years older than you, but give this answer to a college professor when they ask you about speciation and watch them laugh at you while giving you an F. You can't disprove someone with a fact that isn't true, so if you just don't know, then don't speak.


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> Yes, but one must ACCEPT and ACKNOWLEDGE him. Some dude who says, "Oh, Jesus didnt exist" Isnt gonna get a free ride to heaven. He isnt going to get the benefits, did you read when Jesus was talking to that pharisee dude, and he said something to the extent of
> 
> "To enter the Kingdom of Heaven, one must be born again. Not born of flesh, but born of spirit."
> 
> Being "born again" means accepting Christ, and asking The Lord to guide your life. You die to the world, but are alive in Christ alone.


Who says it has to be in this life? I don't believe you even need to accept it. It was an act done for the redemption of all mankind. What about those who never hear? What about children? And why would someone who was not raised in Christian faith (meaning they don't question their beliefs) buy into christianity?


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> Read this....
> 
> Now how can you expect someone to not ask for evidence of what you stated? You gave your opinion to Pepper, but tried to back your opinion with the fact that species aren't changing, just adapting, and didn't know that you were wrong. So I informed you of speciation and you jump on me. I probably am about 5 years older than you, but give this answer to a college professor when they ask you about speciation and watch them laugh at you while giving you an F. You can't disprove someone with a fact that isn't true, so if you just don't know, then don't speak.


 I have a very basic knowledge. Im sorry, I got pissed because you asked me something i didnt know, and I actually couldnt back my crap up...


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> Neither. The Trinity is a veeeery strange concept... All three are God, in actuality, but,  different... not forms, but... Parts, I would say. The Holy Spirit is God's voice inside Christians, Christ is God born as a man, and God is... God. Yahweh.


The holy trinity concept is actually derived from the Hindu faith. 3 gods in one but with different personalities. You have the Creator, the destroyer, and the saviour.


----------



## Bazooka Tooth (Dec 3, 2005)

Bazooka Tooth said:
			
		

> Do non-Christians even want to goto Heaven? Do they care?
> That's the question....
> 
> Im not talking about anyone in here, but for someone who isnt religious ask
> ...




Am I not correct?


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> Gococks
> 
> I dont buy what Darwin has to say. It stems from my religion and my own thought process, but some of his stuff seems a little... Not right to me. But, I havent done enough research to pull out different quotes from him and say, Oh, this is wrong, and so is this. So, Id really rather not say anything else about him, cuz I dont want to just be spewing BS.


 But you have done enough research about God and religion to tell others what will and won't send them to hell? Or are you spewing BS?


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 3, 2005)

Bazooka Tooth said:
			
		

> Am I not correct?


Quite a few people who are not Christian still believe in an concept of Heaven. It means different things of course to each person depending on their beliefs.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

Personally, I believe that children, those still with innocence ((a very vague, loose term)), those who have never heard the Gospel, all go to Heaven.

 Rocco, from everything I've read, there is no "second chance" to repent after life has been lived. I cant quote scripture, but, I just get that feeling. Because after you die, there is no waiting room. Its either straight to Hell, or Heaven. No time, or place to say, "WAIT, GOD, I changed my mind!"


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 3, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> But you have done enough research about God and religion to tell others what will and won't send them to hell? Or are you spewing BS?


 Actually I retract this statement because religion is based on faith and science on proof. They are two totally different aspects. Sorry Fish.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> But you have done enough research about God and religion to tell others what will and won't send them to hell? Or are you spewing BS?


 Lol, Ive done enough on God and Heaven, that part isnt BS, I assure you.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> Sorry Fish.


 Im sorry bro, I was being a jerk. I really got in over my head, and I bugged, lol.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> Otherwise why wouldn't you go to the gym on Sunday instead!?!?
> (Scare Tactics)


 My gym is closed on Sundays, and I usually dont go to Church sunday. God doesnt hate me because of it.


----------



## silencer (Dec 3, 2005)

Has anybody watched the documentary "The God Who wasn't There" ...


----------



## dougnukem (Dec 3, 2005)

Rocco32 said:
			
		

> Who says it has to be in this life? I don't believe you even need to accept it. It was an act done for the redemption of all mankind. What about those who never hear? What about children? And why would someone who was not raised in Christian faith (meaning they don't question their beliefs) buy into christianity?



And this is why I believe all faiths are actually derived from the same entity.  Everyone is putting there faith in the same sentient being, whether they realize it or not.  This is how I relate the passages in the Bible about being accepted into heaven by hearing the word and allowing Christ anto your life to be true for all religions.  If they are not "Christian", but still have a faith based religion; ie: Muslim, Jewish, even Hinduism, they will be granted salvation.  The Bible is just one interpretation of how a group of people follow God's way.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

Bazooka Tooth said:
			
		

> Am I not correct?


 Yes you are. I wonder why people who do not believe in the rest of Judeo-Christian beliefs are so worried about whether they go to hell or heaven, both of which are Judeo-Christian concepts.

 Before anyone asks, yes, there are similar concepts in other religions, but the "heaven" and "hell" Im talking about are the ones described in The Bible.


----------



## Bazooka Tooth (Dec 3, 2005)

Rocco32 said:
			
		

> Quite a few people who are not Christian still believe in an concept of Heaven. It means different things of course to each person depending on their beliefs.




That's true, I guess I meant people who arent religious, not just dont believe in Christianity


----------



## dougnukem (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> Personally, I believe that children, those still with innocence ((a very vague, loose term)), those who have never heard the Gospel, all go to Heaven.
> 
> Rocco, from everything I've read, there is no "second chance" to repent after life has been lived. I cant quote scripture, but, I just get that feeling. Because after you die, there is no waiting room. Its either straight to Hell, or Heaven. No time, or place to say, "WAIT, GOD, I changed my mind!"



but what about the people that are dying that ask for forgiveness?  Just like the thiefs that were being crucified next to Jesus.  They repented right then and there, and Jesus forgave them.  So the same should still hold true.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

dougnukem said:
			
		

> And this is why I believe all faiths are actually derived from the same entity. Everyone is putting there faith in the same sentient being, whether they realize it or not. This is how I relate the passages in the Bible about being accepted into heaven by hearing the word and allowing Christ anto your life to be true for all religions. If they are not "Christian", but still have a faith based religion; ie: Muslim, Jewish, even Hinduism, they will be granted salvation. The Bible is just one interpretation of how a group of people follow God's way.


 Ive heard this interpretation before, and I find it irresponsible of myself to acknowledge it, but, COMPLETELY HYPOTHETICALLY, Im good either way.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

dougnukem said:
			
		

> but what about the people that are dying that ask for forgiveness? Just like the thiefs that were being crucified next to Jesus. They repented right then and there, and Jesus forgave them. So the same should still hold true.


 Hold on, hold on. That is in life. If, in your last dying breath you HONESTLY ask God to forgive you, and accept Christ's gift, then you are saved. Im saying that there IS NO CHANCE, AFTER YOU HAVE DIED, to repent. In life, at any given moment, you may repent (repent being accepting Christ) and be saved.


----------



## silencer (Dec 3, 2005)

If anyone is interested I'm willing to send the documentary "The God Who wasn't There" via your chosen method, after watching this maybe peoples questions might become a little more sensible.


----------



## dougnukem (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> Ive heard this interpretation before, and I find it irresponsible of myself to acknowledge it, but, COMPLETELY HYPOTHETICALLY, Im good either way.



It's not anymore irresponsible of you to except as it would be for a Muslim to accept a Christian, or a Hindu to believe a Rabbi as a religious leader.  It's just how we are brought up in our own individual faiths.


----------



## NeilPearson (Dec 3, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> My body will go in the grave. The soul goes to heaven or hell. That passage does not support you position at all.



The thing you are missing is "the grave" and "hell" are just different translations of the same words SHEOL or HADEES.

There is no difference.  That is my whole point, while "hell" does exist in the bible it is not a place where you are conscious of anything.  It is the grave


----------



## NeilPearson (Dec 3, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> The Bible is clear...you accept Christ as you Lord and Savior, you go to Heaven. You don't, you don't.



The bible is clear... you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, you have eternal life.  You don't, you don't...  I don't believe it is clear about going to heaven.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

I find your comment innacurate. Christ often made comments about hell as a place "outside of heaven", or, into the lake of fire, or, just cast you out, etc. where there will be a weeping and a gnashing of teeth. Hell is a place outside of Heaven, without God, where you will be conscious, and it will not be enjoyable.


----------



## NeilPearson (Dec 3, 2005)

dougnukem said:
			
		

> I just was proving the bible's mention of the existence of hell.  That is what you asked if I'm not mistaken.



Yes, the bible is clear.  Death exists.  We all know that though.  Anyone that has ever lost a loved one realizes that.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> - Semantics,... Aversion


 wtf? Huuuunh? Okay, ask me an actual question, and Ill be glad to answer it.


----------



## dougnukem (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> Hold on, hold on. That is in life. If, in your last dying breath you HONESTLY ask God to forgive you, and accept Christ's gift, then you are saved. Im saying that there IS NO CHANCE, AFTER YOU HAVE DIED, to repent. In life, at any given moment, you may repent (repent being accepting Christ) and be saved.



That's something I have always steered away from.  Trying to figure out what happens right after you die.  I see your view on it, and that's why I don't think into too much.  I can't honestly say that I know God wouldn't accept me into Heaven upon my death.  A sort of "Too late, your going to Hell, you should have repented sooner deal."


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> Yes, the bible is clear. Death exists. We all know that though. Anyone that has ever lost a loved one realizes that.


 Life and death exist. There are 2 things after death, either heaven, or hell.


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> Hold on, hold on. That is in life. If, in your last dying breath you HONESTLY ask God to forgive you, and accept Christ's gift, then you are saved. Im saying that there IS NO CHANCE, AFTER YOU HAVE DIED, to repent. In life, at any given moment, you may repent (repent being accepting Christ) and be saved.



The increadable arrogance of a religion- be it Christianity,Islam,Juddaism whatever............


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

Nick+ said:
			
		

> The increadable arrogance of a religion- be it Christianity,Islam,Juddaism whatever............


 Call it what you will. Im not sad, I dont see how it is a bad thing, Im not hurting anyone with it, nor am I persecuting anyone because of it.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> Of course they're going to say that...
> 
> Otherwise why wouldn't you go to the gym on Sunday instead!?!?
> 
> (Scare Tactics)


 Okay, clarify for me, Who is THEY?

 Pronouns arent very helpful when it is unclear which noun you are referring to, my friend.


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> Call it what you will. Im not sad, I dont see how it is a bad thing, Im not hurting anyone with it, nor am I persecuting anyone because of it.



True you are not hurting anyone..., just don't push your views to the extreme (as say happens in the Middle East)


----------



## NeilPearson (Dec 3, 2005)

Rocco32 said:
			
		

> Actually the origins of hell come from the Greek mythologies. So what did you vote?



 

Like it has been pointed out "hell" exists in the bible but the meaning of the word was simply the place of the dead or state of being dead.  No consciousness or judgement was attached to the word... this was added years later (from Greek mythologies) by the Catholic Church so they could control people better and get them to pay their church taxes.


----------



## silencer (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> Call it what you will. Im not sad, I dont see how it is a bad thing, Im not hurting anyone with it, nor am I persecuting anyone because of it.



Maybe you aren't personally, but look at the fucking inquisition and all the pain and suffering christianity has caused. I mean for fuck sakes, People try and Exert pressure on you to believe that unless you convert to christian faith you will go to some shithole called hell. "Hay dude, ya know if you don't accept The Jewish Rabbi who died 2000 years ago into yourlife You are fucked forever, uh huh!" ...get real.


----------



## NeilPearson (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> We are not God. People take the term God's children out of concept.



Kind of like they take Son of God out of context to mean that he is God


----------



## NeilPearson (Dec 3, 2005)

Rocco32 said:
			
		

> The holy trinity concept is actually derived from the Hindu faith. 3 gods in one but with different personalities. You have the Creator, the destroyer, and the saviour.





Today's version of Christian's is full of pagan believes, customs, symbols and practices.


----------



## NeilPearson (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> I find your comment innacurate. Christ often made comments about hell as a place "outside of heaven", or, into the lake of fire, or, just cast you out, etc. where there will be a weeping and a gnashing of teeth. Hell is a place outside of Heaven, without God, where you will be conscious, and it will not be enjoyable.



Read my post a few pages ago that look at some of these passages.  Show me some of these passages that show hell is a conscious place.  Or show me a single passage that shows that hell is the lake of fire.  They are two different things... that is how hell and death are cast into the lake of fire in Revelations and destroyed.  This is not possible if they are the same.  

There are a few passages that could be interpreted that way but are taken out of context.  I believe I have already addressed most of them.


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

I know I'm not supposed to vote on that poll ( being a filthy heathen) but I just had to vote 'no'..........  Can't believe how many people voted 'yes' or 'unsure'.....


----------



## dougnukem (Dec 3, 2005)

Nick+ said:
			
		

> I know I'm not supposed to vote on that poll ( being a filthy heathen) but I just had to vote 'no'..........  Can't believe how many people voted 'yes' or 'unsure'.....



Burn in Hell!!  j/k  Seriously, I voted "don't know" because I honestly, don't know.  The traditionalist in me, says how can you judge those that haven't heard the word?  While the realist says that people know right from wrong, and it's not really a matter of following the "Christian" way, but doing what is right.


----------



## NeilPearson (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> Life and death exist. There are 2 things after death, either heaven, or hell.



Prove it.

Jesus went to hell until he was ressurected.

Job prayed to go to hell to end his suffering.

At the time of judgement.  Hell offered up it's dead to be judged... yup that's right they weren't judged yet and were in hell.

When Jacob was mourning for his son Joseph, whom he thought had been killed, he said: 

"I shall go down mourning to my son into she'ol" (Genesis 37:35). 

Sheol has been translated as hell or grave in different passages since they are the same thing

in Ecclesiastes 9:10, we read: 

"All that your hand finds to do, do with all your power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in she'ol, (KJV "grave", Douay "hell") the place to which you are going." 

"For in death there is no remembrance of you; In she'ol (KJV "the grave") who will give you thanks?" (Psalm 6:5).


----------



## silencer (Dec 3, 2005)

I have NO Idea why, maybe its just the SHEER IGNORANCE which is getting to me. But for someone not to Question his/her Faith and ultimate belief in this world and what follows seems to me to be Entirely RETARDED. To Follow a Religion which is VERY SKETCHY for a start, try to Exert this religion on other people in a violent manner(in the past) and other ways...I mean damnit, its just not right. Religion was there to guide people to become civilised and to believe that their Shitty lives centuries ago was a test...and all the crap they went through was not in vein, furthermore the Church Clergy made a SHIT LOAD of cash and of course they wanted people to believe in it. The Holy Ghost and Mr JC can take a hike. I believe in one divine force, God, all the rest...stuff it.


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

dougnukem said:
			
		

> Burn in Hell!!  j/k  Seriously, I voted "don't know" because I honestly, don't know.  The traditionalist in me, says how can you judge those that haven't heard the word?  While the realist says that people know right from wrong, and it's not really a matter of following the "Christian" way, but doing what is right.



Hmmm!    In your case , you didn't know, maybe some others just did it to be "on the safe side"....      I believe in anycase that the soul does not die with the body, it may be that we come back here again   (God help us!!)   Maybe in another shape or form...........


----------



## NeilPearson (Dec 3, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> Thats so it seems more realistic....
> 
> As if they were saying... "sure, that happens, but only like we tell it" -



Wow, that is so wrong... the bible is very clear on turning away from any types of pagan rituals, symbols or ideology.


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> Wow, that is so wrong... the bible is very clear on turning away from any types of pagan rituals, symbols or ideology.



The nice irony being , that many  churches in Britain (and elsewhere in Europe)were built on Pagan sites, some still have the remains of pre christian stone circles around them.(Built within the walls in some cases..........)


----------



## dougnukem (Dec 3, 2005)

Nick+ said:
			
		

> Hmmm!    In your case , you didn't know, maybe some others just did it to be "on the safe side"....      I believe in anycase that the soul does not die with the body, it may be that we come back here again   (God help us!!)   Maybe in another shape or form...........


Ressurection has always been one of the things I've pondered.  It goes against everything the "Christian" leaders would have you believe, but it is a possibility.  I do get a kick out of your view of people taking the "safe side", as I know people can and will do this.  But they are only fooling themselves, as they should know, because God knows what's in your heart.  Or at least if you follow that path, you should know this.


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

Don't put all your eggs in one basket(??)


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

right its time for supper I've got to go and chop garlic and parsley
shame, this was interesting


----------



## dougnukem (Dec 3, 2005)

Nick+ said:
			
		

> right its time for supper I've got to go and chop garlic and parsley
> shame, this was interesting



Enjoy. Cya later.


----------



## BigDyl (Dec 3, 2005)

silencer said:
			
		

> I have NO Idea why, maybe its just the SHEER IGNORANCE which is getting to me. But for someone not to Question his/her Faith and ultimate belief in this world and what follows seems to me to be Entirely RETARDED. To Follow a Religion which is VERY SKETCHY for a start, try to Exert this religion on other people in a violent manner(in the past) and other ways...I mean damnit, its just not right. Religion was there to guide people to become civilised and to believe that their Shitty lives centuries ago was a test...and all the crap they went through was not in vein, furthermore the Church Clergy made a SHIT LOAD of cash and of course they wanted people to believe in it. The Holy Ghost and Mr JC can take a hike. I believe in one divine force, God, all the rest...stuff it.




You'll start to believe when you feel the business end of my katana blade against your throat...


----------



## silencer (Dec 3, 2005)

I don't know if I will really believe, but if I had a Katana to my throat I sure as fuck would make sure the other person believed that I did


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> Today's version of Christian's is full of pagan believes, customs, symbols and practices.


 Not derived from, though they are similar. 3 is a very natural number, many things happen in threes.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Dec 3, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> At the time of judgement. Hell offered up it's dead to be judged... yup that's right they weren't judged yet and were in hell.


 You say this as if I didnt know it. All people shall be judged at the end of days, Christian or not. The Christians, (bear with me here, I dont mean this in any arrogant way at all, though it may sound it) will be found blameless, because they accepted the gift Christ offers. The non-Christian, however, will be found to have sinned, (as have all, save for Jesus), and will experience the second death. This second death can be interpreted in two ways, either their entire spiritual existance will be wiped from the universe, or they will go back to hell, and spend eternity there.


----------



## Arnold (Dec 3, 2005)

these religeous threads are futile, no one is going to change their belief.


----------



## dougnukem (Dec 3, 2005)

Eh, it's all good.  I think we just like a good debate every now and then.  As long as nobody gets too bent out of shape, you can have an intelligent conversation about it.


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

dougnukem said:
			
		

> Eh, it's all good.  I think we just like a good debate every now and then.  As long as nobody gets too bent out of shape, you can have an intelligent conversation about it.



Haaar!


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> these religeous threads are futile, no one is going to change their belief.



People have changed their belief in the past(and the present) because of persuasion........


----------



## GFR (Dec 3, 2005)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> these religious threads are futile, no one is going to change their belief.


That is just not true!!!!!!!!!!!!

I loved the Lord until I read the posts by Robert DiMaggio.....now I'm 100% atheist.

Thank you Rob for un-brainwashing me


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> That is just not true!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I loved the Lord until I read the posts by Robert DiMaggio.....now I'm 100% atheist.
> 
> Thank you Rob for un-brainwashing me



Stop arselicking in the pursuit of a Mod Job..........


----------



## GFR (Dec 3, 2005)

Nick+ said:
			
		

> Stop arselicking in the pursuit of a Mod Job..........


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

>



hmmm! I've had a few so maybe I should just shut my gob!!! 

Comment retracted!


----------



## GFR (Dec 3, 2005)

Nick+ said:
			
		

> hmmm! I've had a few so maybe I should just shut my gob!!!
> 
> Comment retracted!


I'm about 6 beers in so far......waiting for the Hopkins vs Taylor II fight to start...


----------



## dougnukem (Dec 3, 2005)

I hate you guys....damn people won't let me have real beer here.  Something to do with carrying a live weapon and drinking.....sheesh


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> I'm about 6 beers in so far......waiting for the Hopkins vs Taylor II fight to start...



I'm about 1.5litres of wine in so far +1  litre of  beer6%. Now I'm knocking back two "small" glasses of Armagnac..........

Its one bad show


----------



## GFR (Dec 3, 2005)

dougnukem said:
			
		

> I hate you guys....damn people won't let me have real beer here.  Something to do with carrying a live weapon and drinking.....sheesh


Please I'm drinking with a loaded gun right next to me


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Please I'm drinking with a loaded gun right next to me



Don't give me that loaded gun crap
!!!!
I just gulped the last bit of Armagnac in agony, now at 7  mins to midnigjht I shall try and behavz myself by gong to sleep.......

(excuse the spelling mistakes, I haqve a french keyboqrd)


----------



## dougnukem (Dec 3, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Please I'm drinking with a loaded gun right next to me



 I'd been on CNN if I was doing that as a military guy.


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

amazing people talking about loaded guns (yet alone about guns)
ermm, just not used to that sort of culture..........


----------



## GFR (Dec 3, 2005)

Nick+ said:
			
		

> Don't give me that loaded gun crap
> !!!!
> I just gulped the last bit of Armagnac in agony, now at 7  mins to midnigjht I shall try and behave myself by gong to sleep.......
> 
> (excuse the spelling mistakes, I have a french keyboard)


My 18 1/4 inch biceps are more power full than any gun....thus my comment


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> My 18 1/4 inch biceps are more power full than any gun....thus my comment



You lucky bastard!


----------



## NeilPearson (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> You say this as if I didnt know it. All people shall be judged at the end of days, Christian or not. The Christians, (bear with me here, I dont mean this in any arrogant way at all, though it may sound it) will be found blameless, because they accepted the gift Christ offers. The non-Christian, however, will be found to have sinned, (as have all, save for Jesus), and will experience the second death. This second death can be interpreted in two ways, either *their entire spiritual existance will be wiped from the universe*, or they will go back to hell, and spend eternity there.



Finally truth 

they don't go back to hell.  Hell is cast into the fire and destroyed.  But still hell (as in Sheol or Hades) is just the state of being dead waiting for judgement.  There is no knowledge or pain or wisdom or consciousness in hell.  Good and bad alike are sent there (which is obvious from the people that went to hell when they died - including Jesus - and all the good people in the bible that talked about going to hell (Sheol) when they were to die


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

No Foreman- if you have got guns like that-my respect!!


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 3, 2005)

Wow. as ive read the last 4 pages of posts the only real problem with Christianity as I see it has become ultimately apparent.  That problem being the division of Christianity. unfortuneately within Christianity multiple sects have arisen each saying  that they have the correct interpretation of the bible.  The truth is much of Christianity does not even understand their own doctrines and therefore speculation and personal opinions abound.  The resulting confusion leads to conflicting doctrines. This confusion also leads to pure, simple, and easy to understand Christianity becomeing a stumbleing block to non-christians trying to understand the wonderful teachings of Jesus Christ.  And we are then left with questions such as this "will non-christians go to hell?" and even worse those christians who have the audacity to unequvically answer yes in their pride and arrogance.

i must say i disagree with many of the things posted on this thread by christians relateing to the doctrines of death, hell, and the resurection.  all simple doctrines corrupted and changed over time due to lack of proper leadership in christianities checkered past.

having said all this i am not precluding the fact the truth has been permanetly lost.  The true doctrines of Jesus Christ are still out there, we must unfortuneatly now look harder to find them.


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> Personally, I believe that children, those still with innocence ((a very vague, loose term)), those who have never heard the Gospel, all go to Heaven.
> 
> Rocco, from everything I've read, there is no "second chance" to repent after life has been lived. I cant quote scripture, but, I just get that feeling. Because after you die, there is no waiting room. Its either straight to Hell, or Heaven. No time, or place to say, "WAIT, GOD, I changed my mind!"


Well actually we do go before God. And every tongue will profess Christ and every knee will bow to him. That's scripture. But your basing people going to hell on "how you feel". That's a pretty heavy thing buddy.


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 3, 2005)

dougnukem said:
			
		

> And this is why I believe all faiths are actually derived from the same entity.  Everyone is putting there faith in the same sentient being, whether they realize it or not.  This is how I relate the passages in the Bible about being accepted into heaven by hearing the word and allowing Christ anto your life to be true for all religions.  If they are not "Christian", but still have a faith based religion; ie: Muslim, Jewish, even Hinduism, they will be granted salvation.  The Bible is just one interpretation of how a group of people follow God's way.


EXACTLY!!! I believe it all goes back to the same God.


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> You say this as if I didnt know it. All people shall be judged at the end of days, Christian or not. The Christians, (bear with me here, I dont mean this in any arrogant way at all, though it may sound it) will be found blameless, because they accepted the gift Christ offers. The non-Christian, however, will be found to have sinned, (as have all, save for Jesus), and will experience the second death. This second death can be interpreted in two ways, either their entire spiritual existance will be wiped from the universe, or they will go back to hell, and spend eternity there.


 But why is Christianity the one religion that exacts it's penalties on all mandkind, believer or not? If what you speak of is true, it means that an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi who leads a good and simple life was sentenced to hell the day he chose to believe in Judaism, but a Christian priest who has molested hundreds of young children still has a chance to go to heaven. If he asks for forgiveness from the Christian God that is. Am I the only one that has a problem with this?

 And why shall all people be judged? Are they judged by the Christian God or their god(if they have one)?


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 3, 2005)

Why can't heaven simply be the happiest moment our souls can fathom and hell, the most painful experience we can fathom? If there is some sort of eternal situation for our souls, why is it's fate decided by a god?


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 3, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> Not derived from, though they are similar. 3 is a very natural number, many things happen in threes.


No, they are actually derived from Pagan beliefs. That was the Church's way of trying to destroy Pagan rituals and such. Take them over for themselves and call it Christian as they killed the Pagans.


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 3, 2005)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> these religeous threads are futile, no one is going to change their belief.


No, but it's nice to hear other viewpoints.


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 3, 2005)

Rocco32 said:
			
		

> No, but it's nice to hear other viewpoints.


 I find these kind of debates very interesting, just as long as people don't get personal or to fanatical.


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 3, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> But why is Christianity the one religion that exacts it's penalties on all mandkind, believer or not? If what you speak of is true, it means that an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi who leads a good and simple life was sentenced to hell the day he chose to believe in Judaism, but a Christian priest who has molested hundreds of young children still has a chance to go to heaven. If he asks for forgiveness from the Christian God that is. Am I the only one that has a problem with this?
> 
> And why shall all people be judged? Are they judged by the Christian God or their god(if they have one)?


All of us will be judged by God. And by that i mean Christ.  Christ is the God of everyone, wheather we recognize it, or accept it or not he is still God.

and to say the Jewish Rabbi who lives a good life is going to hell is asinine.  If he lived a good life and accepts truth wherever it is to be found then he would have accepted Christ had he been given the opportunity, his blessings in the afterlife will be the same as any who accept Christ.  and the christian priest who molests children does not go to heave simply by asking for forgiveness.  repentence is more than that. repentence requires a change of heart. not to mention that priest must do all he can to make restitution. if he does not repent properly than his punishment will be worse because he knew the truth and went against it.


----------



## min0 lee (Dec 3, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> I find these kind of debates very interesting, just as long as people don't get personal or to fanatical.


Fuck you, now I will jump out the window in the name of something.


----------



## dougnukem (Dec 3, 2005)

Okay, my internet was, what did I miss?  anything?


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 3, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> All of us will be judged by God. And by that i mean Christ. *Christ is the God of everyone, wheather we recognize it, or accept it or not he is still God*.


   How did you come to this conclusion?


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 3, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> How did you come to this conclusion?


after all i have written you still have to ask?


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 3, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> after all i have written you still have to ask?


  Yes, because you are saying that your Christ is the God of everyone, whether or not they believe in him. I am not a theologian so this is a serious question. Do all religions accept that Christ is God? If not, it brings up the old argument of why one religions belief system is more valid than anothher.


----------



## The13ig13adWolf (Dec 3, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> Fuck you, now I will jump out the window in the name of something.


----------



## NeilPearson (Dec 3, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> Wow. as ive read the last 4 pages of posts the only real problem with Christianity as I see it has become ultimately apparent.  That problem being the division of Christianity. unfortuneately within Christianity multiple sects have arisen each saying  that they have the correct interpretation of the bible.  The truth is much of Christianity does not even understand their own doctrines and therefore speculation and personal opinions abound.  The resulting confusion leads to conflicting doctrines. This confusion also leads to pure, simple, and easy to understand Christianity becomeing a stumbleing block to non-christians trying to understand the wonderful teachings of Jesus Christ.  And we are then left with questions such as this "will non-christians go to hell?" and even worse those christians who have the audacity to unequvically answer yes in their pride and arrogance.



I couldn't agree more.  Christianity is vague and centered more on tradition and what was taught to them than what it says in the bible.  The bible is hundreds of pages but people can only come up with maybe 5-6 quotes that show that hell is a place of torment where people can think or feel.  Also these 5-6 quotes can easily be explained how they were taken out of context (as I explained in previous posts) and nobody has stepped up to even challenge my explainations.  Yet this idea is central to Christian belief.

Other Christian beliefs that are based on only a few quotes taken out of context include the trinity and Jesus being God.  Again, this should be a pretty critical central idea in the bible but it isn't.  For every passage that says something that supports the Trinity, I could show you one that doesn't support it - and explain how and why the one that supports it could be taken out of context.  Son of God is not God.

Matt 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

If he were God wouldn't he know?

There are other incidents in the bible that show he wasn't God.  He prayed to God on the cross and asked why God has forsaken him.  This doesn't make sense if he was God... because he'd be praying to himself and because he'd already know the answer.

This is why I no longer consider myself a Christian.  I learned too much about what the bible says.


----------



## P-funk (Dec 3, 2005)

I can't believe how brainwashed some people are.


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 3, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> Yes, because you are saying that your Christ is the God of everyone, whether or not they believe in him. I am not a theologian so this is a serious question. Do all religions accept that Christ is God? If not, it brings up the old argument of why one religions belief system is more valid than anothher.


because one is true and one isnt. thats what makes it more valid. you can ask why, why, why all you want,  but sometimes you need to take a few steps in darkness before you will see the light. you are looking at this from a purely intelictual standpoint. how are you to understand something spiritual if not by the spirit? if you are looking for me to prove God to you, then your wasting your time, or maybe i am. ive said it before i have no desire to prove God to you.


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

Rocco as things stand (with regards to the invasion of Iraq etc), the 'West' has not even two feet to stand on-with regards to "morals"................

Shit ,I should be asleep, theres some bloody cock (err cockerel/rooster for you americans!!!!!!)started sounding off at 03:45am here.
I'd better go back to sleep..........


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 3, 2005)

Nick+ said:
			
		

> Rocco as things stand (with regards to the invasion of Iraq etc), the 'West' has not even two feet to stand on-with regards to "morals"................
> 
> Shit ,I should be asleep, theres some bloody cock (err cockerel/rooster for you americans!!!!!!)started sounding off at 03:45am here.
> I'd better go back to sleep..........


wrong thread. your right you need to go back to bed.


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 3, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> I can't believe how brainwashed some people are.


i know. to convince yourself there is no God.  its amazing people can do that.


----------



## Nick+ (Dec 3, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> wrong thread. your right you need to go back to bed.



SHUT UP 
Myhead is about to hit the pillow...


----------



## P-funk (Dec 3, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> i know. to convince yourself there is no God.  its amazing people can do that.




no comment.


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 3, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> no comment.


its better that way


----------



## P-funk (Dec 3, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> its better that way



I know.  that is why i don't debate religion.  I don't want to offend anyone.


----------



## Big Smoothy (Dec 3, 2005)

Apologies to the Original Poster for my childish comments.

The concept of "hell" however, is primarily Judeo-Christian.


If you want to study christian history, make sure you study it with a NON-Christian.  Otherwise, a lot of things will be ommited.

Convenient, eh?


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 3, 2005)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> Apologies to the Original Poster for my childish comments.
> 
> The concept of "hell" however, is primarily Judeo-Christian.
> 
> ...


not all Christians convienently forget the past.


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 3, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> i know. to convince yourself there is no God. its amazing people can do that.


 I find it incredible that so many people convince themselves that organized religion is the absolute rule of everything, and that there is one religion that is right and the rest are wrong. What makes you think people have to convince themselves that there is no God? You make it sound as though God is rooted in everyone at birth, and at one time or another, all non-believers went through a personal struggle in order to make themselves stop believing. I have never stated that I don't believe in God, but why is it amazing that some people don't believe in something that there is no proof of? 

Do you find the existence of Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster and ghosts farfetched?


----------



## Vieope (Dec 3, 2005)

_So Jesus was born around Israel so he is jewish? Since we all know the H in Jesus H Christ means Hebrew. Then again, if you look into the face reconstruction made by scientists you can clearly see that Jesus is descendent of arabs, so he is a muslim. But Christ was born without a father, so he is a bastard, sorry for the word, so he was not baptized. Even if he was not a bastard, catholic chruch was not created until years later of his death.

In conclusion, Jesus is everything, even Viking but he is not catholic. So to answer your question yes, he is going to hell. _


----------



## Arnold (Dec 3, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> i know. to convince yourself there is no God.  its amazing people can do that.



it makes a hell of lot more sense (no pun intended) to believe there is no god than to believe there is... and it is a fact that religeon divides people and causes hate, death, wars, etc. religeon has killed more people than anything else in this world's history. I cannot think of one good thing that comes from being "religeous".

btw, I like to take the agnostic stance.


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 3, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> I find it incredible that so many people convince themselves that organized religion is the absolute rule of everything, and that there is one religion that is right and the rest are wrong. What makes you think people have to convince themselves that there is no God? You make it sound as though God is rooted in everyone at birth, and at one time or another, all non-believers went through a personal struggle in order to make themselves stop believing. I have never stated that I don't believe in God, but why is it amazing that some people don't believe in something that there is no proof of?
> 
> Do you find the existence of Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster and ghosts farfetched?


i do believe that the belief in God is rooted in all men at birth.  within us lies the desire to know why we are here, where we came from, and where we are going.

and organized religion. nothing makes more sense.  using the assumprion that there is a God nothing is more logical that he would want us to know about him. If there is a God and he is our creator then he had a purpose in creating us. If he had a purpose in creating us then he has a plan for us. and if he has a plan for us then we must logically know of this plan so we may follow and benifit from it. are we to do this blindly? stumbling around in the dark and making up our own beliefs and doctrines about him? i think not. if there is a God and i believe there is, then he wants me to know about him, and he will set up his church that i may go there and learn of him, and his plan so that i may worship him as he desires.

it makes no sense to me that God will create us and then just leave us alone, without guidance. with no purpose.


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 3, 2005)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _So Jesus was born around Israel so he is jewish? Since we all know the H in Jesus H Christ means Hebrew. Then again, if you look into the face reconstruction made by scientists you can clearly see that Jesus is descendent of arabs, so he is a muslim. But Christ was born without a father, so he is a bastard, sorry for the word, so he was not baptized. Even if he was not a bastard, catholic chruch was not created until years later of his death._
> 
> _In conclusion, Jesus is everything, even Viking but he is not catholic. So to answer your question yes, he is going to hell. _


are you really this retarded?  this proves my point of people making up doctrines as they see fit with no guidance. all the more reason God would set up his church, that those who had the desire and searched for it would find it and understand God's plan for us.

face reconstruction made by scientists. i loved that one, what else do you have.


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 3, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> i do believe that the belief in God is rooted in all men at birth. within us lies the desire to know why we are here, where we came from, and where we are going.
> 
> and organized religion. nothing makes more sense. using the assumprion that there is a God nothing is more logical that he would want us to know about him. If there is a God and he is our creator then he had a purpose in creating us. If he had a purpose in creating us then he has a plan for us. and if he has a plan for us then we must logically know of this plan so we may follow and benifit from it. are we to do this blindly? stumbling around in the dark and making up our own beliefs and doctrines about him? i think not. if there is a God and i believe there is, then he wants me to know about him, and he will set up his church that i may go there and learn of him, and his plan so that i may worship him as he desires.
> 
> it makes no sense to me that God will create us and then just leave us alone, without guidance. with no purpose.


 So are you telling me if you took a child and isolated him from all external religious influence from the day he was born, that he would form a belief in God similar to the one you believe in?We are not born with a belief in God.  The question of why we exist, what we came from and why is not the same question as "why did God create us?", because one of these questions leaves room for many reasons as to why, but the other only leaves room for why God did. The drive to discover where man came from, what purpose we serve and why has led to some incredible discoveries in science, discoveries which discredit the theory of a divine creator, so does that mean their discoveries can not answer why we exist and where we came from simply because they have nothing to do with God? Einstein discovered General Relativity, and it has never been disproven, not even once. It also directly conflicts with what the Bible says about creation despite the fact that he started out by asking "why" And the answer to Einstein's "why" was not God, but a mathematical equation.

    Why is it that we have to have an answer as to why we are here and what happens when we die? Why is seeing believing for so many things in our lives but believing is seeing when it comes to organized religion? I grew up in catholic schools, and it's teachings never fully satisfied me as to why. It seems to me that organized religion just fills in the answers to questions we can't comprehend. As I have become more educated, I have found the answers to what I used to attribute to a god in science, but not once have I found an answer to what I attribute to science in god.


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 3, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> are you really this retarded? this proves my point of people making up doctrines as they see fit with no guidance. all the more reason God would set up his church, that those who had the desire and searched for it would find it and understand God's plan for us.
> 
> face reconstruction made by scientists. i loved that one, what else do you have.


 What makes his viewpoints retarted? Can it be proven that the bible is nothing more than a book of doctrines that its writers made up as they saw fit? And how do you know that God's plan isn't merely something that a human wrote as they saw fit? If both of these questions can't be answered with definitive, concrete evidence that can be seen by believers and non-believers alike, then his statements are no more retarted than your own.


----------



## Vieope (Dec 4, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> are you really this retarded?  this proves my point of people making up doctrines as they see fit with no guidance. all the more reason God would set up his church, that those who had the desire and searched for it would find it and understand God's plan for us.
> 
> face reconstruction made by scientists. i loved that one, what else do you have.


_God damn it. How can you think that I was serious? Jesus Viking? H for Hebrew? Didnt that tip you off that I might be joking? 
But do you want a good argument to refute this religion? Ok, are you ready? Here it comes. 


It doesnt make sense. _


----------



## Tier (Dec 4, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> What makes his viewpoints retarted? Can it be proven that the bible is nothing more than a book of doctrines that its writers made up as they saw fit? And how do you know that God's plan isn't merely something that a human wrote as they saw fit? If both of these questions can't be answered with definitive, concrete evidence that can be seen by believers and non-believers alike, then his statements are no more retarted than your own.



There are just people who can see sense and people like him. That's all there is to it. It's always been this way though, people revolting against ideas that conflict with the masses. Most of them are fed this shit since birth so I can't blame them too much, I just feel sorry for them.


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 4, 2005)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> it makes a hell of lot more sense (no pun intended) to believe there is no god than to believe there is... and it is a fact that religeon divides people and causes hate, death, wars, etc. religeon has killed more people than anything else in this world's history. I cannot think of one good thing that comes from being "religeous".
> 
> btw, I like to take the agnostic stance.


I think a lot of Christians are close minded, most definately. But this statement as most posted by you concerning religion and politics are just sad and uninformed  Nothing like being extreme with your views, eh Robert?


----------



## NeilPearson (Dec 4, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> What makes his viewpoints retarted? Can it be proven that the bible is nothing more than a book of doctrines that its writers made up as they saw fit? And how do you know that God's plan isn't merely something that a human wrote as they saw fit? If both of these questions can't be answered with definitive, concrete evidence that can be seen by believers and non-believers alike, then his statements are no more retarted than your own.



Jesus was obviously Jewish.  This is not really debatable.  The bible says it many times as well as any other historical reference of his life (and there were more than just the bible)

And the part about him not being Catholic so he is going to hell is the stupidest thing I've read yet in this thread.  First of all Catholic does not mean Christian.  Catholic is just one form of Christianity (and probably the most warped and non-biblical).  Second of all, Christ did go to hell (as I have already pointed out) when he died.  He went there when he died and stayed there until the ressurection.


----------



## god hand (Dec 4, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> I find it incredible that so many people convince themselves that organized religion is the absolute rule of everything, and that there is one religion that is right and the rest are wrong. What makes you think people have to convince themselves that there is no God? You make it sound as though God is rooted in everyone at birth, and at one time or another, all non-believers went through a personal struggle in order to make themselves stop believing. I have never stated that I don't believe in God, but why is it amazing that some people don't believe in something that there is no proof of?
> 
> Do you find the existence of Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster and ghosts farfetched?


Uh foreman?


----------



## P-funk (Dec 4, 2005)

lol, this is why religion is the downfall of man.  This is why virtually all wars come back to some religious beliefs. Everyone wants to believe that they are right or what they believe is the only way.

I don't understand why people that are overly christian feel that anyone who is not is damned in life.  Give me a fucking break.  You are just as bad as any of the assholes in the middle east who wage holy war on others.


----------



## min0 lee (Dec 4, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> lol, this is why religion is the downfall of man.  This is why virtually all wars come back to some religious beliefs. Everyone wants to believe that they are right or what they believe is the only way.
> 
> I don't understand why people that are overly christian feel that anyone who is not is damned in life.  Give me a fucking break.  You are just as bad as any of the assholes in the middle east who wage holy war on others.


----------



## The Monkey Man (Dec 4, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> lol, this is why religion is the downfall of man. This is why virtually all wars come back to some religious beliefs. Everyone wants to believe that they are right or what they believe is the only way.
> 
> I don't understand why people that are overly christian feel that anyone who is not is damned in life. Give me a fucking break. You are just as bad as any of the assholes in the middle east who wage holy war on others.


 
 - Thats a future SIG again...


----------



## P-funk (Dec 4, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> - Thats a future SIG again...




lol, you should have seen what i had typed at the end of it that erased....hahaha....really harsh.


----------



## Pepper (Dec 4, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> lol, this is why religion is the downfall of man. This is why virtually all wars come back to some religious beliefs. Everyone wants to believe that they are right or what they believe is the only way.
> 
> I don't understand why people that are overly christian feel that anyone who is not is damned in life. Give me a fucking break. You are just as bad as any of the assholes in the middle east who wage holy war on others.


 
It is what the Bible says. I don't understand how people can come up with a belief system that they just make up based on what they feel or think. That is what is absurd.

I also don't understand faulting people for believing their religion is right. What the hell do you expect? A religion is a belief system, but we are supposed to allow for other religions.

Furthermore, I don't understand why people go this far out of their way to blast Christianity. If you don't believe, WTF do you care if I think non-Christians are going to hell.

I guarantee my belief system makes much more sense than yours. Mine has a foundation. Mine is a way of life.


----------



## P-funk (Dec 4, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> It is what the Bible says. I don't understand how people can come up with a belief system that they just make up based on what they feel or think. That is what is absurd.
> 
> I also don't understand faulting people for believing their religion is right. What the hell do you expect? A religion is a belief system, but we are supposed to allow for other religions.
> 
> ...




I am not trying to blast christianity at all.  I am just blasting those that think that they are so above everyone because they believe in a certain religion.  This is why people get in wars.

I grew up catholic and went to a catholic high school and everything. But I am not a religious man.  that doesn't make me a bad man though or any less then anyone else.

I don't care if you think non-christians are going to hell or not.  I could careless.  I just think it is funny that people need a religion to tell them how to live their life.  Like a bunch of sheep being led to the slaughter.  Everyone plays follow the leader.  You belief system has a great foundation...."follow me" he says "i know the way".  I would rather think for myself.


----------



## Pepper (Dec 4, 2005)

It doesn't make you "bad" but it doesn't make you "saved."

That is the point of this thread. 

You really think war happens b/c of religion? They may be in the name of religion but they are because of man. Christ taught peace.


----------



## P-funk (Dec 4, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> It doesn't make you "bad" but it doesn't make you "saved."
> 
> That is the point of this thread.
> 
> You really think war happens b/c of religion? They may be in the name of religion but they are because of man. Christ taught peace.




Allah also taught peace.  It is how people interpret their teachings and the elietest attitudes that come with them that create the problems.


----------



## Pepper (Dec 4, 2005)

So we are supposed to believe Christ when he says He is the only way to Heaven and also believe non-believers will go to Heaven?

We are ellitest and closed minded if we don't? Come on. We are horribly irrational if we did that.


----------



## P-funk (Dec 4, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> So we are supposed to believe Christ when he says He is the only way to Heaven and also believe non-believers will go to Heaven?
> 
> We are ellitest and closed minded if we don't? Come on. We are horribly irrational if we did that.




But, why condem people just because they don't believe in the same thing?  What happens to those that practice religion but something other then YOUR religion?  What about muslims?  Where do they go when they die?  They believe in a religion but not the same as yours.  And in theory, their religion is peaceful too.  Do they go to hell also?

What if, when you die, there is no heaven?  There is no god?  How do you know?

I am just asking.  These are things that always bugged me growing up in an Italian-Catholic family.  I always felt that if you really believe in a God that is all good then why can't you believe that everyone who lives a good life will be open to heaven, no matter what they believed.  God loves everyone.

I don't go to church anymore.  I don't pray.  I believe in something.  I don't know what exactly.  But I believe in something.  Honestly, when you die I think that whatever you beleive happens to your "soul" will happen.  If you believe in heaven and hell then there you go.  If you believe in something else then there you go.


----------



## god hand (Dec 4, 2005)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> it makes a hell of lot more sense (no pun intended) to believe there is no god than to believe there is... and it is a fact that religeon divides people and causes hate, death, wars, etc. religeon has killed more people than anything else in this world's history. I cannot think of one good thing that comes from being "religeous".
> 
> btw, I like to take the agnostic stance.


Its funny how u people always make it sound like religion is all about love. You no there is a satan in the Christian religion dont you!


----------



## god hand (Dec 4, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> are you really this retarded?  this proves my point of people making up doctrines as they see fit with no guidance. all the more reason God would set up his church, that those who had the desire and searched for it would find it and understand God's plan for us.
> 
> face reconstruction made by scientists. i loved that one, what else do you have.


Vieope is just a fuckin loser. Dont try to explain nothin to him.


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 4, 2005)

Pepper said:
			
		

> *So we are supposed to believe Christ when he says He is the only way to Heaven and also believe non-believers will go to Heaven?*
> 
> We are ellitest and closed minded if we don't? Come on. We are horribly irrational if we did that.


 Absolutely we are to believe that. What you've been saying Pepper and a few others is what I've come to hate or really dislike about the Christian attitude. You believe what you believe because it's what's been taught to you.


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 4, 2005)

god hand said:
			
		

> Vieope is just a fuckin loser. Dont try to explain nothin to him.


Lay off V dude.


----------



## The Monkey Man (Dec 4, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> But, why condem people just because they don't believe in the same thing? What happens to those that practice religion but something other then YOUR religion? What about muslims? Where do they go when they die? They believe in a religion but not the same as yours. And in theory, their religion is peaceful too. Do they go to hell also?
> 
> What if, when you die, there is no heaven? There is no god? How do you know?
> 
> ...


test


----------



## P-funk (Dec 4, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> test




one two three


----------



## min0 lee (Dec 4, 2005)

Lima Charlie Sector .....pfffft ....over


----------



## The Monkey Man (Dec 4, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> Lima Charlie Sector .....pfffft ....over


 
they are refabbing my IM text editor

I can only post half the time, and I have lost some functionality

Like cut copy paste & stuff


----------



## The Monkey Man (Dec 4, 2005)

hmmm edit post works


----------



## min0 lee (Dec 4, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> hmmm edit post works


How do you like the new look?


----------



## Sirius (Dec 4, 2005)

god does not exist just as the monster under ur bed does not exist, will i go to "hell" define hell and what i have to do to get there? how do you know that hell isn't paradise? just because an outdated book says so. stop being so fical and easily persuaded, u guys disgust me. the only thing religions are good for are to create phony wars to kickstart the economy? frankly the truth is if u literally beleive this stuff you should go to hell...


----------



## Vieope (Dec 4, 2005)

god hand said:
			
		

> Vieope is just a fuckin loser. Dont try to explain nothin to him.


----------



## Vieope (Dec 4, 2005)

Rocco32 said:
			
		

> Lay off V dude.


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 4, 2005)

why can't i post anything in this thread?


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 4, 2005)

It won't let me post when I quote someone. It always says my message is to short. Is god preventing me from posting?
















haha, just kidding everyone. I couldn't resist.


----------



## Tier (Dec 4, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> It won't let me post when I quote someone. It always says my message is to short. Is god preventing me from posting?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No, it's the devil... but god created the devil so.. I guess it's god... Because if god created everything, he created lucifer... so god is the source of all evil too.


----------



## The Monkey Man (Dec 4, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> How do you like the new look?


 
Theres no cut and paste - 

and I have to toggle the little
switch editor button in the corner
everytime I want to post -


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 4, 2005)

shit, I just tried to quote monkey man and it wouldn't let me. Whats the deal?


----------



## min0 lee (Dec 4, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> shit, I just tried to quote monkey man and it wouldn't let me. Whats the deal?


It works for me.


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 4, 2005)

Well then we both don't have the same problem...


----------



## min0 lee (Dec 4, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> Well then we both don't have the same problem...


Look I did it again 

I'm special.


----------



## min0 lee (Dec 4, 2005)

seriously, does it look like this?


----------



## gococksDJS (Dec 4, 2005)

yes...


----------



## min0 lee (Dec 4, 2005)




----------



## min0 lee (Dec 4, 2005)

Maybe when you reboot it will work.


----------



## Big Smoothy (Apr 2, 2006)

Rocco32 said:
			
		

> This is a poll for those who profess Christ as their Saviour. Non-christians can respond in the forum but not take the poll please.



I posted on this thread before, but I'll say it again:

The entire concept of "HELL" is a Judeo-Christian concept.

The concept of "hell" does not apply to those in religions that are non-Judeo-Christian or non-Christians.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 2, 2006)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> I posted on this thread before, but I'll say it again:
> 
> The entire concept of "HELL" is a Judeo-Christian concept.
> 
> The concept of "hell" does not apply to those in religions that are non-Judeo-Christian or non-Christians.



just because someone doesnt believe in it, it does not make it untrue


----------



## Big Smoothy (Apr 2, 2006)

^ That not the point.

It's not about truth, but whether this concept is relevant to non Judeo-Christians. 

The same with Animistic religions, Islam, and Hinduism, or the Greek and Roman gods.  Native American gods, etc.


----------



## BigDyl (Apr 3, 2006)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> just because someone doesnt believe in it, it does not make it untrue


----------



## The Monkey Man (Apr 3, 2006)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> just because someone doesnt believe in it, it does not make it untrue


 
http://www.content.loudeye.com/scripts/hurl.exe?clipid=033761001020006900&cid=600111


----------



## Dale Mabry (Apr 3, 2006)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> just because someone doesnt believe in it, it does not make it untrue




Are you afraid of the boogeyman?


----------



## mrmark (Apr 3, 2006)

This is a genuine question - if hypothetically it is true that non-christians will go to hell, does that mean that all the people before christ are in hell?


----------



## The Monkey Man (Apr 3, 2006)

Ugggg... What me do wrong?
Me no wanna go to hell!?


----------



## GFR (Apr 3, 2006)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> Ugggg... What me do wrong?
> Me no wanna go to hell!?


I think this pic and post best describes how pathetic and barbaric most people still are.....I would believe in Santa long before I would believe in the Bible or any other ilk like it.


----------



## Nick+ (Apr 3, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> I think this pic and post best describes how pathetic and barbaric most people still are.....I would believe in Santa long before I would believe in the Bible or any other ilk like it.



Santa was a pagan.






http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/3136.html


----------



## Pepper (Apr 3, 2006)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> just because someone doesnt believe in it, it does not make it untrue


 
 well done.


----------



## Pepper (Apr 3, 2006)

mrmark said:
			
		

> This is a genuine question - if hypothetically it is true that non-christians will go to hell, does that mean that all the people before christ are in hell?


 
Before Christ they had the law. The Old Testament.

They had rituals like sacrifices, circumcision.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 3, 2006)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> Are you afraid of the boogeyman?


yes


----------



## maniclion (Apr 3, 2006)

Valhalla I am comiiiiiiiiiiing!


----------



## Tier (Apr 4, 2006)

I like when they use God to fight demons, two imaginary things at war, WHO WILL WIN????


----------



## The Monkey Man (Apr 4, 2006)

Pepper said:
			
		

> Before Christ they had the law. The Old Testament.
> 
> They had rituals like sacrifices, circumcision.


 
Yeah, and after christ they had
the Crusades,
the Dark Ages & the Plague years,
the Inquisition,
the Witch trials,
the Holocaust...



_Oops sorry, my bad on those!_


----------



## Pepper (Apr 4, 2006)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> Yeah, and after christ they had
> the Crusades,
> the Dark Ages & the Plague years,
> the Inquisition,
> ...


 
So, what is your point? People are evil? I'd agree.


----------



## Pepper (Apr 4, 2006)

I am trying to remember what part of the Bible tells you that once you become a believer that you no longer have evil in you.


----------



## The Monkey Man (Apr 4, 2006)

Pepper said:
			
		

> I am trying to remember what part of the Bible tells you that once you become a believer that you no longer have evil in you.


 

The part where an individual, ceases to have individual thoughts.



And thats not really the bible, it's the organized groups that sell the merits of the bible.
(If this doesn't apply to you... disregard)


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 4, 2006)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> The part where an individual, ceases to have individual thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


nowhere did Christ ever teach us to loose individual thoughts. why are you always trying to instigate things?


----------



## KelJu (Apr 4, 2006)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> nowhere did Christ ever teach us to loose individual thoughts. why are you always trying to instigate things?


`


He isn???t. Read his post again, because you didn't understand it apparently.


----------



## The Monkey Man (Apr 4, 2006)

First of all, jesus was a magician...
(thats my belief)


But I didn't mention Christ...

2nd, I "SAID" it's organized groups that do this..
meaning they use the written words to encourage tunnel vision...

3rd, I even threw in... 4 you to disregard, if you felt you are a free thinker..


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 4, 2006)

KelJu said:
			
		

> `
> 
> 
> He isn???t. Read his post again, because you didn't understand it apparently.


the organized groups that sell the merits of the bible. the conection is still being made, despite the double talk. let him answer the question as it was directed towards him


----------



## The Monkey Man (Apr 4, 2006)

And lets get straight that I have no problem with a person having spirituality
or faith, or belief, its constitutional...

Now, I "personally" find christianity humorous...


Its the organization of it, where "I" think the positives of any faith become corrupted..


----------



## KelJu (Apr 4, 2006)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> the organized groups that sell the merits of the bible. the conection is still being made, despite the double talk. let him answer the question as it was directed towards him



"Let"? What do you mean "let"? I am not Monkey Man's master. 
Monkey man can post whatever he wants, you can post whatever you want, and I will post whatever I want.

I was simply pointing out the fact that you completely misunderstood what he was saying, plus you are accusing him of something I didn't see him do. 
But since you want to take that attitude I will throw into the debate a few observations I made years ago.

Right before I completely lost my faith, I would ask priest, preachers, and religious adults questions for which I could never get answers for. All Christians for whom I asked these questions would never give me an answer, but would dance around the subject as if they were hiding something. So, here is a sample of what I had going through my head at the age of 14 and lets see what you can give me:

God is all powerful, all loving, and all knowing. Innocent children are dying everyday from horrible diseases, hunger, and war. God is all knowing so you know he knows they need his help. God is all powerful, so you know he has the power to help them. God is all loving, so you know he wouldn???t turn a blind eye.
Well this proposes a logical error. There is absolutely no way for the above statement to be true. Something is wrong, so either god is not all powerful, not all knowing, or not all loving. So is the precious King James Bible is wrong?

God has a divine plan. God gave us free will. 
This is another logical error. Either you have free will, or you are living by a divine plan. You can???t do both at the same time. So, is the King James Bible wrong?

Books often lose meaning or messages become distorted when translating from one language to another. The King James Bible is a work that has been proven to have been translated over 7 times, and probably many times more. Is it fair to say that much of what is in the King James Bible is not factually correct, and that living your life by a flawed outdated book is not only impractical, but dangerous?

If you do not believe that the bible is factually correct and that Jesus was not the son of God, but you do believe in God and you live your life as honest and good as you can in honor of God, do you still go to hell for not recognizing Jesus Christ as your personal savior?  

Why were the dinosaurs never mentioned in the bible?

Why were the Neanderthal Cavemen never mentioned in the bible?

One of the Ten Commandments states: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 
So why does every church in North America have statues of Jesus, stained glass windows of Jesus and angels, and painted merils of heavenly objects?

Is one sin worse than another?

If one sin carries the same weight as another, why are Christians marching to stop gay marriage, pushing legislation to prevent gambling, ect., but they haven???t said a fucking peep about people working on the Sabbath? That really looks like Christians are only standing up for the bible when it is convenient.  

These are just a small portion of questions that sent me into a teenage depression while I gathered my wits enough to finally say to hell with it all. But I would love to hear you thoughts on this.


----------



## aceshigh (Apr 4, 2006)

mormons are the worst!!!!!!!!! they beleive adam and eve came from misouri america  mwahahahah   and when the founder had the "scriptures" he wrote taken away,,and was told to do it again if it was for real,,and he couldnt mwahahahaha,,,,so he was proved to be bullshitting,,,,,and people still beleive this shit amazing   only in america,,,,mwahahahahahahahaah


----------



## The Monkey Man (Apr 4, 2006)

The problem with being a free thinker is that inevitably you
step on someones toes...

Organized religions take good "Ideas", like character, and honesty,
and turn them into beliefs by using some training technique...

And at some point the good "Ideas" get corrupted when
opposing "Ideas" present themselves...

In order to remain a solid organization, devotees of a particular sect
band together...

(usually through some form of scare tactic and a little elbowing
but, often simply through tradition)

eventually if sects of opposing "Ideas" disagree,
and allow enough, intolerance, and hate to enter the picture...

All good intentions get lost

And it happens everyday, from the smallest little comment made in
Joe snuffy's workplace, to a conversation on a website, to an ongoing
war in the Middle-East...


----------



## The Monkey Man (Apr 4, 2006)

aceshigh said:
			
		

> mormons are the worst!!!!!!!!! they beleive adam and eve came from misouri america mwahahahah and when the founder had the "scriptures" he wrote taken away,,and was told to do it again if it was for real,,and he couldnt mwahahahaha,,,,so he was proved to be bullshitting,,,,,and people still beleive this shit amazing only in america,,,,mwahahahahahahahaah


 
Thats a favorite of mine -  

As Don King would say... "Only in America"

The guy wants to have sex with other women besides his wife...
(Who doesn't at one point or another)
He gets railroaded out of St. Louis, because this behavior is deemed immoral.
So he says WTH...

Starts his own religion, rewrites it so he can have as many
wives as he wants...

And people believe him - 
(Or more likely, that setup just worked for them also)


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 4, 2006)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> Thats a favorite of mine -
> 
> As Don King would say... "Only in America"
> 
> ...



i hope this isnt in reference to the LDS church. if it is then its scary just how far off you are. or maybe im too niave and think people will actually look up their facts before they post.


----------



## The Monkey Man (Apr 4, 2006)

naw, LDS separated themselves politically from Joseph Smith (the criminal)
And tightened their belt severely...

Amazing how most acts of the major founder/proprieter of LDS
are hazed and morphed into...
him being simply a prophet who the lord "spoke to"


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 4, 2006)

KelJu said:
			
		

> "Let"? What do you mean "let"? I am not Monkey Man's master.
> Monkey man can post whatever he wants, you can post whatever you want, and I will post whatever I want.
> 
> I was simply pointing out the fact that you completely misunderstood what he was saying, plus you are accusing him of something I didn't see him do.
> ...



here are the answers to your questions. im suprised no one answered them for you.

Yes God is all powerful. so why does he allow bad to happen?  as part of the plan He prepared for us, we are here to learn the difference between good and evil. we must experience both, that is why we are here. to learn. i dont see how him being omniscient, and omnipotent means He must stop all bad things from happening.

if God has a divine plan then we cannot have free will?  you misunderstood the meaning of divine plan. His plan is indeed divine and part of it is for us to learn by using our free will.  we have the opportunity to learn about and accept or reject his plan according to our free will. there are divine consequences of each for which he is prepared.  he has a plan for this world and a plan in place by which we can return to Him. He will not force us to follow this plan however. He will guide us, He will direct us if we ask for it, but he will not force us. 

The bible is mostly factually correct. some errors have obviously krept into the bible over multiple translations. this does not mean the bible is useless and antiquated.  God knows this and has prepared for the confusion that has resulted. when your searching for the truth you will find it.

dinosaurs? cavemen? are you serious?  is this a real question?  the bible is a spiritual book, the creation story takes up a very small portion of the bible for a reason. it was written to people in their time to their needs. i hardly think 2000+ years ago they were worried about dinosaurs and cavemen.  just like they didnt write about porn on the internet. it wasnt relavant to their ability to follow the plan of God.  needless to say our anscestors are not monkeys.

is one sin worse than another? yes. thats the easiest answer for you. any child can recognize murder is more serious than coveting your neighbors goods.  the order of the ten commandments is specific for a reason.

im sure i didnt answer questions 100% to your liking and thats fine. if you disagree thats fine let me know and id discuss any of these further with you


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## bio-chem (Apr 4, 2006)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> naw, LDS separated themselves politically from Joseph Smith (the criminal)
> And tightened their belt severely...
> 
> Amazing how most acts of the major founder/proprieter of LDS
> ...



Joseph Smith a criminal? what law did he break? and how has the LDS church separated from him in any way? politically? what do you mean by that?


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## The Monkey Man (Apr 4, 2006)

It was a political move that when LDS formed
they forbade poligamy...

Well, If I remember correct JS was originally thrown in jail (where he died)
for arson, trying to burn down a free press paper, who threatened to
print an article describing his sect's then common lifestyle

(I'm sure the actual events that occured back then will be
subject to debate as well)

But my main point was only in America could someone have this idea
to start (or in this case re-start) a new religion

Which was unaccepted in the east, and then after moving west
and some adjustment remains to this day


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## bio-chem (Apr 4, 2006)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> It was a political move that when LDS formed
> they forbade poligamy...
> 
> Well, If I remember correct JS was originally thrown in jail (where he died)
> ...



on april 6, 1830 when the church formed in new york, polygamy was not a doctrine of the church. not much politics involved there. 

Joseph Smith was thrown in jail many times by his enemies. something like 40 times, though never convicted. and as to the events that got him thrown in jail before he died, they would very much be debated.


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## bio-chem (Apr 4, 2006)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> But my main point was only in America could someone have this idea
> to start (or in this case re-start) a new religion
> 
> Which was unaccepted in the east, and then after moving west
> and some adjustment remains to this day



where was the Lutheran church formed? Calvinists? Church of England?
only in America could someone have the idea of starting a new religion? it happened throughout europe. why not america? what is your meaning of re-start a new religion? and i think that the problem in the east is that it was accepted and thats what scared people. if it wasnt accepted it wouldnt have been forced to move, and none would have followed.


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## MyK (Apr 5, 2006)




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## maxpro2 (Apr 5, 2006)

http://www.wimp.com/politics/


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## The Monkey Man (Apr 5, 2006)




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## aceshigh (Apr 5, 2006)

sir joseph smith was a bullshit artist dum dum dum dum dum


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## bio-chem (Apr 5, 2006)

you guys have anything worthwhile to post? what about you aceshigh? as it is your posts that are obviously the most well informed and intelligent.


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## aceshigh (Apr 5, 2006)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> you guys have anything worthwhile to post? what about you aceshigh? as it is your posts that are obviously the most well informed and intelligent.


holy shit ,,,if my posts are the most worthwhile and intelligent Ims in a bad way,,,,,


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## mikedaddy (Nov 5, 2009)

we're in Hell. When you die. hey guess what. YOU FKin' DIE!!!   END OF STORY... Stop hoping for life after death. Does that even make sense?


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## danzik17 (Nov 5, 2009)

Thanks for bringing back a 3.5 year old thread to provide your enlightening views.


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## maniclion (Nov 5, 2009)

mikedaddy said:


> we're in Hell. When you die. hey guess what. YOU FKin' DIE!!!   END OF STORY... Stop hoping for life after death. Does that even make sense?


You keep resurrecting dead threads, does that make sense?


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## Crono1000 (Nov 5, 2009)

mikedaddy said:


> we're in Hell. When you die. hey guess what. YOU FKin' DIE!!!   END OF STORY... Stop hoping for life after death. Does that even make sense?



using your own words, let this thread fkin' die.


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