# Did i kill my estrogen too much?



## shayan (Sep 10, 2014)

This is my second thread this week so id like to apologize but i ran to another problem and i need some oppinions.
So: i developed some mild gyno and i loaded on adex 1mg eod for a few days and all the pain and ichiness went away (thank god) also i used some nolva 40mg ed.
Anyway i started to feel tired all the time and sleepy, i can literally fall a sleep at any time while i type this thread lol. Is ti possible i crashed my e2 too much?
I'm getting blood work tomorrow and i will know for sure but i'd just like to hear your oppinion. If my e2 is lower than it should be i will drop my adex to 0.5 or 0.25 eod would that suffice?

How much would you run on a 500test/ 300/deca/ 30/dbol cycle?
Note:im gyno prone.


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## shayan (Sep 10, 2014)

Shameless bump


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## SoCalSwole (Sep 10, 2014)

Sounds like it to me. How do your joints feel? Mine get really dry and crack a lot when my E is too low. The blood work will show for sure what the deal is. Adjust it up and down slowly the roller coaster ride you can get on trying to make it right is no fun. Also detrimental to the other gear giving you their best results. After you drop the Nolva it should be easier to control.


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## shayan (Sep 10, 2014)

SoCalSwole said:


> Sounds like it to me. How do your joints feel? Mine get really dry and crack a lot when my E is too low. The blood work will show for sure what the deal is. Adjust it up and down slowly the roller coaster ride you can get on trying to make it right is no fun. Also detrimental to the other gear giving you their best results. After you drop the Nolva it should be easier to control.


 Why nolva? the nolva doesnt affect e2 its a SERM (only binds to estrogen receptors @ the nipples) huh? Any way i feel slight discomfort in my elbows but its nothing too bad. Firstly i was affraid that its due to high e2 but its not possible on 1mg adex to have high estrogen on only 500mg test (wich has not even kicked in its week 2..) so the dbol is the main issue. Also i loocked up low estrogen symptoms and lethargecy and sleepyness is a sign of low e2.


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## heckler7 (Sep 10, 2014)

with the Deca your joints probably feel great, dbol is most likely source of gyno. may need to check your BP


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## shayan (Sep 10, 2014)

heckler7 said:


> with the Deca your joints probably feel great, dbol is most likely source of gyno. may need to check your BP


Well bro i dont think the deca is in effect as i stated is still week 2. I know dbol is the culprit but i love the incrise in protein synthesis that it gives i look and feel bigger in just 7 days..


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## shayan (Sep 10, 2014)

This is an idividual question to you my fellows how much adex do you personaly use?


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## shayan (Sep 10, 2014)

Ps i have read that dbol makes ppl lathargic and sleepy but what's the mechanism behind that?


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## independent (Sep 10, 2014)

Stop guessing and get labs.


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## s2h (Sep 10, 2014)

if your gyno prone you may want to find some different choices in AAS...and get labs and don't guess..live and learn..


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## raysd21 (Sep 10, 2014)

bigmoe65 said:


> Stop guessing and get labs.



Yeah no shit.  You are a fucking train wreck bro.  And a prime example of someone who is not ready to be running gear.  People like you are the reason this shit is illegal.  No offense it's just the fuckin truth.  Get your shit together.  You needed more experience before you jumped into deca/dbol stack.  But you just had to go for the big time didn't you.  Well you are learning now the hard way.  Enjoy.  Hope you get your shit straightened out.


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## independent (Sep 10, 2014)

raysd21 said:


> Yeah no shit.  You are a fucking train wreck bro.  And a prime example of someone who is not ready to be running gear.  People like you are the reason this shit is illegal.  No offense it's just the fuckin truth.  Get your shit together.  You needed more experience before you jumped into deca/dbol stack.  But you just had to go for the big time didn't you.  Well you are learning now the hard way.  Enjoy.  Hope you get your shit straightened out.


Rays been drinking tonight. Lol.


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## heckler7 (Sep 10, 2014)

shayan said:


> This is an idividual question to you my fellows how much adex do you personaly use?


 adex.5 EOD I pulse the dbol preworkout otherwise my nipples go crazy


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## Mike Arnold (Sep 10, 2014)

shayan said:


> This is my second thread this week so id like to apologize but i ran to another problem and i need some oppinions.
> So: i developed some mild gyno and i loaded on adex 1mg eod for a few days and all the pain and ichiness went away (thank god) also i used some nolva 40mg ed.
> Anyway i started to feel tired all the time and sleepy, i can literally fall a sleep at any time while i type this thread lol. Is ti possible i crashed my e2 too much?
> I'm getting blood work tomorrow and i will know for sure but i'd just like to hear your oppinion. If my e2 is lower than it should be i will drop my adex to 0.5 or 0.25 eod would that suffice?
> ...



Like SH2 said, get labs. No one can tell you what your AI dose should be, as everyone responds differently to these drugs. I will tell you this, though--1 mg EOD is not much at all, especially when running 500 tes, 30 mg D-bol and 300 mg Deca. I would run at least that much with that cycle, if not more. 

Remember, if you start developing gyno, you can just add in some nolva and it wll go away. Nolva stops the progression of gyno more quickly than AI's...and bvecause Nolva doesn't lower estrogen levels, you don't have to be worried about "crushing" your estrogen, which is blown way out of proportion by too many guys these days. 

If you are gyno prone, you might want to think about staying away from shit like D-bol, which is one of the very worst drugs for gyno development. Also, like S2H said, if you want exact answers, then get labs.


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## blergs. (Sep 11, 2014)

shayan said:


> This is my second thread this week so id like to apologize but i ran to another problem and i need some oppinions.
> So: i developed some mild gyno and i loaded on adex 1mg eod for a few days and all the pain and ichiness went away (thank god) also i used some nolva 40mg ed.
> Anyway i started to feel tired all the time and sleepy, i can literally fall a sleep at any time while i type this thread lol. Is ti possible i crashed my e2 too much?
> I'm getting blood work tomorrow and i will know for sure but i'd just like to hear your oppinion. If my e2 is lower than it should be i will drop my adex to 0.5 or 0.25 eod would that suffice?
> ...



0.25mg-0.5mg eod of dex.......


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## shayan (Sep 11, 2014)

Just got my e2 levels checked the results are:

131.0547 pmol/L> 205.576pmol/L Men.

*35,7 pg/ml *> 56pg/ml


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## shayan (Sep 11, 2014)

Are my e2 levels good in your oppinion?


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## heckler7 (Sep 11, 2014)

E2 should be between 7.6-46 pg/ml according to labcorp so yours look good


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## shayan (Sep 11, 2014)

heckler7 said:


> E2 should be between 7.6-46 pg/ml according to labcorp so yours look good


 Well than i relly cant figure out why do i feel so sleepy? Im constantly tired and sleepy i can barly stay awake


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## heckler7 (Sep 11, 2014)

shayan said:


> Well than i relly cant figure out why do i feel so sleepy? Im constantly tired and sleepy i can barly stay awake


higher calorie intake and rapid body changes due to AAS use most likely the culprit.


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## shayan (Sep 11, 2014)

heckler7 said:


> higher calorie intake and rapid body changes due to AAS use most likely the culprit.



I hear you bro, have you ever experienced such a thing?


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## dagambd (Sep 11, 2014)

raysd21 said:


> Yeah no shit.  You are a fucking train wreck bro.  And a prime example of someone who is not ready to be running gear.  People like you are the reason this shit is illegal.  No offense it's just the fuckin truth.  Get your shit together.  You needed more experience before you jumped into deca/dbol stack.  But you just had to go for the big time didn't you.  Well you are learning now the hard way.  Enjoy.  Hope you get your shit straightened out.


Raysd21, always speaking the truth. You make me laugh.


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## dagambd (Sep 11, 2014)

Shayan,

Are you taking any over-the-counter or prescription medications that could be interacting with the gear. I read your other thread. This is your first cycle right? I am currently running my first cycle and I am running test E 500 mg, Proviron 50 mg eod and exemestane 12.5 mg eod. I have had trouble with all aspects of sleeping for over a decade. During the cycle I have been sleeping better than I have in a long time. I agree with heckler in that your body is making changes rapidly. My workouts have become much more intense and am growing every week. Im sure that's why im sleeping better. Hope things make a turnaround for you.


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## heavyiron (Sep 11, 2014)

When I train hard I need more rest. Crazy huh?


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## shayan (Sep 12, 2014)

dagambd said:


> Shayan,
> 
> Are you taking any over-the-counter or prescription medications that could be interacting with the gear. I read your other thread. This is your first cycle right? I am currently running my first cycle and I am running test E 500 mg, Proviron 50 mg eod and exemestane 12.5 mg eod. I have had trouble with all aspects of sleeping for over a decade. During the cycle I have been sleeping better than I have in a long time. I agree with heckler in that your body is making changes rapidly. My workouts have become much more intense and am growing every week. Im sure that's why im sleeping better. Hope things make a turnaround for you.



No bro i don't take any other meds.

All im taking (apart from the gear is)

Adex 1mg/eod
Caber 0.25mg e3d
Nolva 20mg ed
50mg Zinc
1g Vitamin C
Omega 3 /6
Vitamin E 600 Iu


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## shayan (Sep 12, 2014)

heavyiron said:


> When I train hard I need more rest. Crazy huh?



Obviosly but this is not the usual required rest for recovery... Im sleepy from the minute i wake up till i go to bed i have to force myself to move around so i can stay awake and alot of people on dbol have reported lethargecy but what intrests me is the mechanism behind this phenomenon.


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## dagambd (Sep 12, 2014)

Did you stop the dbol? You may have to stay away from dbol altogether. If you haven't, I would stop taking that and see where you are with the lethargy after a few days. Don't change anything else or you won't know what's causing it.


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## shayan (Sep 12, 2014)

dagambd said:


> Did you stop the dbol? You may have to stay away from dbol altogether. If you haven't, I would stop taking that and see where you are with the lethargy after a few days. Don't change anything else or you won't know what's causing it.



I haven't stopped it but im considering it


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## dagambd (Sep 12, 2014)

Have you tried splitting up the dose throughout the day? That may help. Reading through another thread, it sounds like it may go away if you give it time. And for some people it did go away.


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## dagambd (Sep 12, 2014)

How long has this been going on?


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## shayan (Sep 12, 2014)

dagambd said:


> How long has this been going on?



Since 3 days ago.

Note: Im 1.5 weeks in to my cycle so i know it's not the test or deca


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## dagambd (Sep 12, 2014)

This is not an isolated incident. Just googling lethargy and dbol will provide you with lots of threads of people feeling lethargic on orals in general and dbol specifically. Imo I would drop the dbol. I had been reading up on dbol as well when I started my cycle and saw that people were using it as a "pre-workout". I thought I would give it a try. Bad idea. I got terrible back pumps. Couldn't do a good portion of my workout after only using dbol a few times so I gave that shit up immediately. Then found that a lot of people experience the same thing and have had good results with taurine which could help if I decide to try dbol again. So, just give that shit up man. This being your first cycle 1) you want to have a good one and 2) there's plenty of time down the road to experiment with others. Trust me, if you have good stuff, your first cycle with only test is going to be all that you need. Did I mention dropping the dbol? Lol


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## shayan (Sep 12, 2014)

dagambd said:


> This is not an isolated incident. Just googling lethargy and dbol will provide you with lots of threads of people feeling lethargic on orals in general and dbol specifically. Imo I would drop the dbol. I had been reading up on dbol as well when I started my cycle and saw that people were using it as a "pre-workout". I thought I would give it a try. Bad idea. I got terrible back pumps. Couldn't do a good portion of my workout after only using dbol a few times so I gave that shit up immediately. Then found that a lot of people experience the same thing and have had good results with taurine which could help if I decide to try dbol again. So, just give that shit up man. This being your first cycle 1) you want to have a good one and 2) there's plenty of time down the road to experiment with others. Trust me, if you have good stuff, your first cycle with only test is going to be all that you need. Did I mention dropping the dbol? Lol



I think you are suggesting i should drop the dbol. Hmm 
Any ways yeah i've googled and saw countless threads on this problem but none have an answer to why this happens, also mostly those threads are old like 2002-2008 old and i thaught people know how to counter this today


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## dagambd (Sep 12, 2014)

Im curious as to the "why" myself but that wouldn't keep me from not taking something that is making me feel like ass. Another thread mentioned the dopamine receptors but that's as far as I got.


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## shayan (Sep 12, 2014)

dagambd said:


> Im curious as to the "why" myself but that wouldn't keep me from not taking something that is making me feel like ass. Another thread mentioned the dopamine receptors but that's as far as I got.


 You are right mate, thx for taking the time to replay appreiciate it.


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## dagambd (Sep 12, 2014)

Np man. Best of luck to you. Keep us updated. Hoping everything starts heading in the right direction.


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## shayan (Sep 12, 2014)

dagambd said:


> Np man. Best of luck to you. Keep us updated. Hoping everything starts heading in the right direction.



Will do man, we're all ganna make it


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## dagambd (Sep 22, 2014)

Shayan, how you doing? Wanted to check in with you and see how you're doing? Believe it or not, I began having the same issue. Tired all the time, no motivation blah, blah, blah. I would lay down at night and fucking pass out. I started my cycle only taking test E at 500 mg/wk and proviron 50 mg/eod. Continued reading and found lots of people stating that I should be on an AI during cycle. Started week 3 with exemestane at 12.5 mg eod, which I thought was pretty mild, but it slowly started kicking my ass. Had labs drawn today. Didn't talk the AI this morning. Feel better already. Ill see what the labs have to say. Hope the dye is going better for you.

Peace


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## dagambd (Sep 22, 2014)

Cycle not dye


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## Mike Arnold (Sep 23, 2014)

This thread is a great example of why a 1st time user should never use 3 steroid at once--because he won't have a fucking clue what is causing what.  

More so, with an estro level right there in the middle of the normal range, why in the hell are you also using 20 mg of nolva daily?  You know Nolva doesn't affect estrogen levels, right?  It only prevents estrogen from binding to receptor sites, such as those found in breat tissue, so if your estrogen levels aren't elevated--which the aren't--then why use Nolva?  The AI you are taking is solely repsonsible for your current estro reading...and obviously, it is doing a fine enouigh job.  You're not going to get gyno with an estrogen reading in the 30's.


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## Mike Arnold (Sep 23, 2014)

shayan said:


> I think you are suggesting i should drop the dbol. Hmm
> Any ways yeah i've googled and saw countless threads on this problem but none have an answer to why this happens, also mostly those threads are old like 2002-2008 old and i thaught people know how to counter this today



First of all, you don't even know if that is the problem (there is a high likelihood it is, though), but if your main concern is simply getting rid of the problem, then just drop the damn D-bol and see if it helps.  It doesn't make much sense to continue complaining about lethargy, but then refusing to stop using the drug that is most likely causing it.

We don't know why methyls can cause lethargy in some people.  There has been a lot of speculation regarding this topic.  Some people have mentioned liver stress as a possible cause, but there have been many instances in which liver readings were fine and the individual still experienced major lethargy...and other cases where liver readings were very high and the individual felt great, so there doesn't apear to be any direct connectioin between liver readings and this type of lethargy.  However, that doesn't mran there isn't any connection between toxicity and lethargy...as there definitely seems to be.  Confused?  Keep reading.

Certain methyls are much more likely to cause this side effect than others---and if we look at which methyls cause it the most often, it is always the more toxic ones.  For example, M1T was notorious for causing horrible lethragy ina very high percentage of users...and it is also one of the most toxic methyls available.  Anadrol also causes it quite a bit, but not as ofte as M1T, and it is also more toxic than many other methyls.  Dianabol is less toxic than either of those and appears to cause it significantly less frequently.  Anavar is one of the least toxic methyls and barely ever causes estreme lethargy.

So, there is an undeniable connection between methyl toxicity and lethargy, but not necessarily a connection between liver readings and lethargy.  This is odd, I know, but it is the way it is.

My best advice to you is simply to stay away from those methyls which seem to cause this side effect for you.  You don't need to know the exact cause to avpid it...you just need to know which drugs have this effect on you.


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## shayan (Sep 24, 2014)

dagambd said:


> Shayan, how you doing? Wanted to check in with you and see how you're doing? Believe it or not, I began having the same issue. Tired all the time, no motivation blah, blah, blah. I would lay down at night and fucking pass out. I started my cycle only taking test E at 500 mg/wk and proviron 50 mg/eod. Continued reading and found lots of people stating that I should be on an AI during cycle. Started week 3 with exemestane at 12.5 mg eod, which I thought was pretty mild, but it slowly started kicking my ass. Had labs drawn today. Didn't talk the AI this morning. Feel better already. Ill see what the labs have to say. Hope the dye is going better for you.
> 
> Peace


 
Hey man haven't replayed in a while.
Well i droped the dbol and the lethargecy and sleepy-ness has gone a way.
Im fighting with puffy niples now and some gyno currently on 500mg test e/ 300 deca

Im using letro 2.5m /ed (started 5 days ago) also using cabergoline 0.5mg e3d

And im thinking of adding nolvadex? Should i? alot of people say it cancles the effects of letro as well as anastrozole but there are studies that suggest it doesnt huh?


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## dagambd (Sep 24, 2014)

Glad the lethargy has subsided. I would have to research in order to answer your other questions as im fairly new to aas myself.


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## Mike Arnold (Sep 24, 2014)

shayan said:


> Hey man haven't replayed in a while.
> Well i droped the dbol and the lethargecy and sleepy-ness has gone a way.
> Im fighting with puffy niples now and some gyno currently on 500mg test e/ 300 deca
> 
> ...



A lot of people say nolva cancels the effects of AI's? Hmmm? Maybe ignorant people say that--and if you're encounteringa "lot" of these people, I would seriously consider speaking to others about this from now on. I have been around a while and have never seen a LOT of people say that. In fact, I don't know if I have ever seen anyone say that. 

With that said, nolvadex does not "cancel" the effects of any AI. It is a completely different compound and does not interfere with an AI's function. AI's, such as letro or anastrozole, reduce the rate of aromatization, which in turn lowers systematic estrogen levels. SERM's, such as Nolva, prevent estrogen from attachking to receptor sites, but it does nothing to prevent aromatization, so systematic estrogen remains unaffected. Therefore, you will still experience all the side effects normally associated with elevated estrogen levels, aside from those which arise through estrogen receptor binding.

Look, things shouldn't be this difficult to figure out. On a cycle of 500 mg test and 300 deca, you shouldn't need more than 1 mg A-dex/EOD...or 25 mg Aromasin/day...or 1 mg letro/day. Any of these will be more than sufficient to keep estrogen levels in a normal range for just about everyone. Just begin using one of these AI's right from the start of your cycle, stick with it, and your estrogen levels will never get out of control to begin with. At just 3 weeks into your cycle you have already used multiple AI's, ran nolva at 40 mg/day, and are now consoidering adding it back in again. 

What makes even less sense is that you just got your estrogen level tested and it was normal!!!! Guess what? You won't get gyno when estrogen levels are normal. So, even after learning your estrogen level was fine, you start pounding 2.5 mg of letro daily...and now, just a few days after that, you are asking if you should add Nolva to it! Why? Clearly, you know very little about the drugs you are using. You were ill-prepared to begin this cycle and now you are asking a bunch of questions you should already know the answers to. Not only do you lack a basic understanding of how to manage estrogen levels, neither do you know what these drugs do or how they interact with one another. If you don't know how to manage a drug's side effects, you are not ready for it. 

Actually, your entire approach was misguided--including using 3 new steroids at once.

Your gyno is likely a figment of your imagination--paranoia. It happens all the time in novice users. They get one itch on their nipple and they think they've got gyno. The tip of their nipps sticks out a little more after being in the cold and they think they have gyno. Based on everything you said...and the fact that your estrogen level is normal, I doubt you even have gyno. 

Hold on--back up a second and take a breather. You already have a normal estrogen level, so all you need from this point forward is a single, appropriately dosed AI. As long as you keep systematic estrogen levels under control, you won't need to use Nolva.


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## raysd21 (Sep 25, 2014)

Thanks for getting upset Mike.  People say I'm a dick when I respond to threads negatively.  But it's just that people don't listen.  But hey...some people just want to learn the hard way.  Let's jump into a Test/deca/dbol cycle and learn the hard way bros....this will be fun.  We'll get gyno, fight lethargy with dbol, then we'll crash our estrogen, then we'll wonder why we are tired as fuck, then we will ask IMF and lay the responsibility on them.   Nice fuckin job.

Have a great day.


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## Mike Arnold (Sep 25, 2014)

raysd21 said:


> Thanks for getting upset Mike. People say I'm a dick when I respond to threads negatively. But it's just that people don't listen. But hey...some people just want to learn the hard way. Let's jump into a Test/deca/dbol cycle and learn the hard way bros....this will be fun. We'll get gyno, fight lethargy with dbol, then we'll crash our estrogen, then we'll wonder why we are tired as fuck, then we will ask IMF and lay the responsibility on them. Nice fuckin job.
> 
> Have a great day.



I hear ya'. I normally respond positively, but when people ask questions and then blatantly IGNORE the answers and continue to ask the same questions (which this guy did), it makes me wonder why they're actually even asking the question. For example, in his last post--the question he posted had already been answered/explained previously, yet there he is, asking the same question again. Now, I completely understand why someone might not want to put all their eggs in one basket and rely on just a single person's response, but to completely ignore it and ask the same question as if no one even attempted to help--it makes no sense.

I don't know this guy. If he ends up causing himself unnecessary problems, it is not going to affect my life, but I would still prefer he avoid them, which is why I responded in the first place.


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## shayan (Oct 1, 2014)

Mike Arnold said:


> I hear ya'. I normally respond positively, but when people ask questions and then blatantly IGNORE the answers and continue to ask the same questions (which this guy did), it makes me wonder why they're actually even asking the question. For example, in his last post--the question he posted had already been answered/explained previously, yet there he is, asking the same question again. Now, I completely understand why someone might not want to put all their eggs in one basket and rely on just a single person's response, but to completely ignore it and ask the same question as if no one even attempted to help--it makes no sense.
> 
> I don't know this guy. If he ends up causing himself unnecessary problems, it is not going to affect my life, but I would still prefer he avoid them, which is why I responded in the first place.



Firstly i would say Thx for your replay.

But! I do have some little gyno my nipps are puffier than they have ever been (when in a hot place) and i have a small lump behind each nipple and around them as well.

I have an x-ray in 1 week and i will get to the bottom of it.
My theory is that i had pre existing pubertal gyno and that the dbol only flared it up and made it noticable now that's how i got it in 2 weeks.


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