# Can somebody help me reach 180lbs!



## dsc123 (Nov 24, 2010)

before i start i apologise if its in the wrong section! im 19 yrs old and have been stuck on 170 lbs, my goal is to be 180, but my body doesnt seem to want to put on any more weight. ive tried adding calories but am still sitting at around 170. what do you guys recommend? i feel my diet and training seem to be all good.


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## Buzzard (Nov 24, 2010)

You need to post up your diet. Lots of people think they are getting 'plenty' of calories, when they aren't even close.


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## dsc123 (Nov 24, 2010)

ive not kept track of calories but my diet is:
8am-protein shake & 2 eggs in sandwich, or a bowl full of cereal with whole fat milk.
10.30-chicken&bacon sandwich
1.pm-footlong bbq chicken baguette
5.pm- hot&spicy sausage in a roll
6.pm- jack3d preworkout
7.30-protein shake postwork out
8.30-pasta with chicken or tuna

my diet does vary but that is a basic overview of it.

thanks


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## Merkaba (Nov 25, 2010)

Here ya go:  Quit bullshitting and eat like you're serious.  


"That's all"


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## Merkaba (Nov 25, 2010)

dsc123 said:


> ive not kept track of calories but...



Why would you expect someone else to give you an answer if you don't know what you're eating?!!  

FitDay - Free Weight Loss and Diet Journal


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Nov 25, 2010)

dsc123 said:


> ive not kept track of calories but my diet is:
> 8am-protein shake & 2 eggs in sandwich, or a bowl full of cereal with whole fat milk.
> 10.30-chicken&bacon sandwich
> 1.pm-footlong bbq chicken baguette
> ...



What kind of lifts are you doing?


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## Nedster (Nov 25, 2010)

11 1/2 Hours without food .......8-30 pm till 8-00 am
How can you go so long?


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## dsc123 (Nov 26, 2010)

that's why i have started this post, because i need help with my diet, i am very serious about bodybuilding. i will use fitday but i find it hard to get accurate results from it, but will post up my macros after. my training at the moment is as follows:
Mon-upper
hang cleans 5x5
military press 5x5
t-bar rows 5x5
chin ups 5x5
1 arm lat pulldown 4x8


tues-lower & abs
squats 5x5
leg press 4x8
leg extentions 4x8

thurs-upper
bench press 5x5
incline DB press 4x8
weighted dips 5x5
shoulder press 5x5
seated rows 5x5

fri-lower & abs
deadlifts 5x5
leg curls 4x8 maybe change to romanian deadlifts 5x5
calf raises 4x20

the reason i go that long with out food is because i rest from around 10pm-7am because rest is as important as training itself


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## dsc123 (Nov 26, 2010)

macros approx- 
Cals 2781
Fat (g) 91
Carbs (g) 266
Protein (g)212


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## LAM (Nov 26, 2010)

increase your cals by 10% each week until weight gain occurs, everyone gains weight with a high enough caloric intake.  adding healthy fats to the diet is an easy way to boost the cals with out a lot of $ or a lot of chewing, etc.


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## aussie1 (Nov 26, 2010)

yeh 8.30pm looks like your dinner, i recommend you eat another meal before bed like 9.30 - 10pm, i usually have a protein shake(i use wpc but casein protein would be better) with a fair bit of milk and also a hand full of almonds or a spoonful on natural peanut butter. Also can add some oats to your protein shake.

Cottage cheese could be another food you could eat at night but i think it tastes like shittt


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## stfuandliftbtch (Nov 26, 2010)

dsc123 said:


> ive not kept track of calories but my diet is:
> 8am-protein shake & 2 eggs in sandwich, or a bowl full of cereal with whole fat milk.
> 10.30-chicken&bacon sandwich
> 1.pm-footlong bbq chicken baguette
> ...





I myself am 19 too...if you are expecting to put on good quality muscle with that kind of diet, you mind as well stop working out...

cereal? bacon? Subway? Suasage? no casein before bed? No simple carbs/sugats post workout?

Get your diet in check and you'll grow... 

get rid of all that damn flour/bread your putting in your body and that cereal out too. Bacon also. its like 30/70 protein to fat ratio. replace oats for cereal, and rice for your bread. 

get ON Casein for bedtime. Replace milk in the morning for OJ, and get in some fruit too. I like to add bananas in my oats in the morning...soo good! Cardio 2-3 times a week, hiit or slow cardio. up to you. PM if you want to know more. my mind is a book of knowledge...possibly a very small book..but a book.


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## gtbmed (Nov 26, 2010)

That's ridiculous.

LAM is right.  Increase your calories by 10-15% and track your weight for a week or two.  If you don't grow, increase by 10-15% again.  Do this until you start gaining.


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## aussie1 (Nov 26, 2010)

yeh i agree with the 2 comments above, i got question off the subject, just wondering what the rules are when posting threads with info/ studies that you saw on other websites, are there any rules? like if i copy and pasted some guys whole thread? then just put the link in from his website?


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## Built (Nov 26, 2010)

Simple solution: olive oil. Nothing wrong with cereal, bacon or Subway. No need for casein before bed, no need for any changes at all to your diet - just add two ounces (4 tablespoons) of olive oil to your day and you'll gain. You could toss a tablespoon or two into a protein shake, and drizzle the rest on a salad. Your calories at 2700-2800 are what my middle-aged, 175 lb husband maintains on. You're just not eating enough. 

PS some broccoli would do your colon some good. (Plus it fights estrogen  )
Don't fear butter - it's good on the broccoli and it's healthy, testosterone-building calories. The olive oil is, too. It helps your boys turn cholesterol into testosterone.


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## dsc123 (Nov 27, 2010)

It's not subway it's just a baguette which is the size of a footlong, with freshly made chicken in a BBQ sauce. I have started the olive oil in my morning shake, but was wondering because I put my powder in my shaker to work with me is it ok to put the olive oil just in with the powder and then add water many hours later? And also can u take the olive oil with water and milk? I'm going to try and eat peanut butter on toast before bed also?


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## dsc123 (Nov 27, 2010)

And one last effect the olive oil won't have any effect on the creatine in my powder will it? Guess it's a stupid questions


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## Marat (Nov 27, 2010)

Post #16: Perhaps you may want to carry the oil separately from the creatine. Once you dissolve the creatine in the water, then you can add the oil. Besides that, everything in that post looks fine. 
Post #17: The ergogenic effects of creatine will not be diminished by the olive oil.


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## stfuandliftbtch (Nov 27, 2010)

Built said:


> Simple solution: olive oil. Nothing wrong with cereal, bacon or Subway. No need for casein before bed, no need for any changes at all to your diet - just add two ounces (4 tablespoons) of olive oil to your day and you'll gain. You could toss a tablespoon or two into a protein shake, and drizzle the rest on a salad. Your calories at 2700-2800 are what my middle-aged, 175 lb husband maintains on. You're just not eating enough.
> 
> PS some broccoli would do your colon some good. (Plus it fights estrogen  )
> Don't fear butter - it's good on the broccoli and it's healthy, testosterone-building calories. The olive oil is, too. It helps your boys turn cholesterol into testosterone.



Hahahah Cereal, bacon, subway...are you kidding me? Mayeb if you want to add half fat half muscle...if your looking for lean muscle. Keep its clean. Subway is NOT healthy. Even the wheat bread is loaded with Sugar, Corn syrup, and enriched wheat flour. 

And you also don't feel a protein that slowly releases protein throughout the night keeping him anabolic is necessary? RoFLmAo

I do agree with the olive oil though..


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## dsc123 (Nov 27, 2010)

When bulking your always going to put on some fat, that is not a problem for me at the moment my bf is around 10% so a bit of fat is fine. When I hit 180 I might feel like going for a cut.


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## Phineas (Nov 27, 2010)

stfuandliftbtch said:


> Hahahah Cereal, bacon, subway...are you kidding me? Mayeb if you want to add half fat half muscle...if your looking for lean muscle. Keep its clean. Subway is NOT healthy. Even the wheat bread is loaded with Sugar, Corn syrup, and enriched wheat flour.
> 
> And you also don't feel a protein that slowly releases protein throughout the night keeping him anabolic is necessary? RoFLmAo
> 
> I do agree with the olive oil though..



OhhhhHHHH juggernaut!!! Where are ya buddy!?!?


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## Phineas (Nov 27, 2010)

stfuandliftbtch said:


> Hahahah Cereal, bacon, subway...are you kidding me? Mayeb if you want to add half fat half muscle...if your looking for lean muscle. Keep its clean. Subway is NOT healthy. Even the wheat bread is loaded with Sugar, Corn syrup, and enriched wheat flour.
> 
> And you also don't feel a protein that slowly releases protein throughout the night keeping him anabolic is necessary? RoFLmAo
> 
> I do agree with the olive oil though..



How much fat you gain on a bulk has little to do with food sources. If you eat too many calories, you'll gain relatively more fat than muscle. That's all there is to it. 

For those who "have trouble gaining weight", so long as their macros are in check, their diet is balanced, they have their veges and fats covered, then it's really not a big deal to eat some less than optimal food. Besides, with bacon you cook it down to about 1/3 the calories/fat labelled on most packages. It's protein, it's calorie-dense, and it tastes great. Who cares, it's bulking. As long as you have sufficient nutrient/vitamin/mineral intake, then the extra calories for simple growth can come from just about anywhere.

I eat what is considered "clean", but the whole clean notion is flawed. People think you can eat 1,000 calories over maintenance with plain chicken breast and brocolli and little fat -- which is also ridiculously retarded -- and they'll gain muscle and no fat, whereas the guy on the 500 cal surplus with bacon and mayo in his diet will become a blubbery whale. For argument sake, if the same guy used either diet in the same training conditions he would gain more fat on the "clean" diet. I gained about 6 lbs of fat in 5 months on a "clean" diet, simply because I had the calories pretty high (which I wanted).

Calories cause fat gain -- not fat, not carbs, not certain foods. Eating whole foods with proper macro breakdowns is good to allow your body to run optimally, but there's only so much you need for that. At some point, you just need calories.


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## aussie1 (Nov 27, 2010)

aussie1 said:


> yeh i agree with the 2 comments above, i got question off the subject, just wondering what the rules are when posting threads with info/ studies that you saw on other websites, are there any rules? like if i copy and pasted some guys whole thread? then just put the link in from his website?




yeh soo can anyone answer this ?


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## Built (Nov 27, 2010)

stfuandliftbtch said:


> Hahahah Cereal, bacon, subway...are you kidding me?



You seem to think you know a great deal more about this than I do. 

Cool.


stfuandliftbtch said:


> Mayeb if you want to add half fat half muscle...if your looking for lean muscle. Keep its clean.


Um...



stfuandliftbtch said:


> Subway is NOT healthy. Even the wheat bread is loaded with Sugar, Corn syrup, and enriched wheat flour.


Sure, but how much sugar and corn syrup? The only real concern with sugar and corn syrup is the fructose, and the trace amount in a Subway sandwich isn't going to cause problems. 



stfuandliftbtch said:


> And you also don't feel a protein that slowly releases protein throughout the night keeping him anabolic is necessary? RoFLmAo


No, I don't. ROFLMFAO! 



stfuandliftbtch said:


> I do agree with the olive oil though..


Well that's comforting.


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## aussie1 (Nov 28, 2010)

yeah no worries ill just post it anyway and get banned. .  . . . ..  top blokessss


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## quark (Nov 28, 2010)

The saying *In Built We Trust* didn't just pop out of thin air. Listen to what she is saying.


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## stfuandliftbtch (Nov 28, 2010)

Built said:


> You seem to think you know a great deal more about this than I do.
> 
> Cool.
> 
> ...




well it does depend on the type of cereal. and your right...i hear the secret of the pros is carb loading off shitty ass subway bread! good call!


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## Built (Nov 28, 2010)

Listen, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here now that I've had a steak and my ADHD meds. 

What is the specific problem with eating Subway carbs while bulking - and not just your opinion, or what the bros say but some actual clinical research here. I want something I can actually get my head around. 

While we're at it, I'd like something similarly grounded in clinical research to support the need for bedtime casein. 

I'm a scientist; I'll change my mind if I have a good reason.


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## juggernaut (Nov 28, 2010)

Hold on Built...stfu, can you show us some of the wisdom you've learned? I'm always up to hearing what a different perspective has to say. If it comes from the pros, it might be useful right Built? Stfu can share the knowledge?


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## Built (Nov 28, 2010)

I'm always learning new things. 

Up until two years ago, I thought I'd go catabolic if I missed a post-workout meal, or hell, if I skipped breakfast! Then I read leangains site (Martin Berkhan). He posted up what he does, his pix, and the supporting research. 

Bro-school dies HARD, it was a very tough sell for me. But the truth does eventually prevail. Now I try to remain fasted at least 14 hours a day, no longer snack, wait until I'm HUNGRY to eat, and eat only a few large meals rather than the six micro snacks under my former paradigm. 

Easiest cut I've ever done - and I've never looked or felt better while cutting. Go figure. I'll use this same method for my next bulk.


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## juggernaut (Nov 28, 2010)

Intrermittent fasting is amazing...and cheap!!!!


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## Built (Nov 28, 2010)

I know. I'm shocked at how much more comfortable it is for me. Some mornings I wonder how I'm going to make it but then I somehow always do. I didn't eat until 6:20 PM last Saturday. 

So odd.


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## juggernaut (Nov 28, 2010)

It does go against conventional thinking, but to eat because you're hungry, not because you scheduled to changes a lot...better food choices, more enjoyment, and there's research showing it works. Cant beat that.


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## seanpedro (Nov 29, 2010)

my goal is 180 for now as well. I am 5'7" pretty low body fat so far... trying to do heavy weight for low rep... good idea?


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## seanpedro (Nov 29, 2010)

oh and i'm 165 now


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## juggernaut (Nov 29, 2010)

seanpedro said:


> my goal is 180 for now as well. I am 5'7" pretty low body fat so far... trying to do heavy weight for low rep... good idea?



Yes, it's a very good idea. Stick to compounds and you'll grow. As for putting weight on, Built is spot on with the cheapy olive oil advice. extra calories in this particular form will certainly help as well as help with test production. 

Any of you hard-gainers do cardio? If so, how much?


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## SFW (Nov 29, 2010)

Built said:


> Now I try to remain fasted at least 14 hours a day, no longer snack, wait until I'm HUNGRY to eat, and eat only a few large meals rather than the six micro snacks under my former paradigm.


 

I see this as the ultimate form of dietary control. 

BUT...i can only see this working for those with small amounts of LBM. For instance, im 220. How else can one get in 250-350 grams of protein with only 2-3 meals? 

Its a perfect design for those looking to maintain a relatively small amount of LBM who have rediculously busy lifestyles. 

How would this approach work for someone my size or larger? And then we get into the whole question of how many grams of protein can we properly digest at once.


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## juggernaut (Nov 29, 2010)

Mr. Fantastico said:


> I see this as the ultimate form of dietary control.
> 
> BUT...i can only see this working for those with small amounts of LBM. For instance, im 220. How else can one get in 250-350 grams of protein with only 2-3 meals?
> 
> ...



Take a moment to read this. It explains it all. The Leangains Guide | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health


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## Acesopro (Nov 30, 2010)

I'd suggest adding more calories to your daily intake. Drinking 2 tbs of olive oil a day is about 200 calories, 1/2 cup of walnuts is 400calories. Just small meals that add easy calories


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## juggernaut (Nov 30, 2010)

why small meals?


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## Built (Nov 30, 2010)

I imagine because it makes it easier to get in the extra calories. It's hard to overstuff yourself. Small meals make it a lot easier to overeat. (Which is why I don't do it btw - I have a hard enough time not overeating as it is! I'm ALWAYS hungry LOL!)


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## aussie1 (Dec 1, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> Take a moment to read this. It explains it all. The Leangains Guide | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health



- is there any benefit of fasting or is it just saying that if you dont get to eat 6 meals a day you can fast then eat 3-4 larger meals later on and eat the same amount of calories.
But the body can only absorb a certain amount of protein in one sitting


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## Marat (Dec 1, 2010)

Mr. Fantastico said:


> And then we get into the whole question of how many grams of protein can we properly digest at once.





aussie1 said:


> But the body can only absorb a certain amount of protein in one sitting



Please stop perpetuating this concept that protein absorption is limited to a few dozen grams per sitting. Even a moment of googling would provide copious amounts of data that conclusively answers this question. Mr. F., there is no debate or uncertainty at all on this topic.

Here's a brief writeup from Martin Berkhan found at Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health. It's myth #5.


Myth: Maintain a steady supply of amino acids by eating protein every 2-3 hours. The body can only absorb 30 grams of protein in one sitting.


Truth

Whenever you hear something really crazy you need to ask yourself if it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. It's a great way to quickly determine if something may be valid or if it's more likely a steaming pile of horseshit. This myth is a great example of the latter. Do you think we would be here today if our bodies could only make use of 30 grams of protein per meal?

The simple truth is that more protein just takes a longer time to digest and be utilized. For some concrete numbers, digestion of a standard meal is still incomplete after five hours. Amino acids are still being released into your bloodstream and absorbed into muscles. You are still "anabolic." This is a fairly standard "Average Joe"-meal: 600 kcal, 75 g carbs, 37 g protein and 17 g fat. Best of all? This was after eating pizza, a refined food that should be quickly absorbed relatively speaking.

Think about this for a second. How long do you think a big steak, with double the protein intake of the above example, and a big pile of veggies would last you? More than 10 hours, that's for sure. Meal composition plays an important role in absorption speed, especially when it comes to amino acids. Type of protein, fiber, carbohydrates and prior meals eaten all affect how long you'll have amino acids released and being taken up by tissues after meals.

Origin

I think this "30 grams of protein"-nonsense started to circulate after a classic study from 1997 by Boirie and colleagues. "Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion" was the first study to quantify the absorption rate of whey and casein protein and gave birth to the concept of fast and slow protein. After that, whey protein came to be known for it's ability to rapidly elevate amino acids in the blood stream and casein for it's ability to create a sustained release of amino acids. Whey was anabolic and casein anti-catabolic.

Given that 30 grams of whey protein was absorbed within 3-4 hours, I guess some people believed that meant 30 grams of protein can only be used in one sitting. Or that you had to eat every 3-4 hours to stay "anabolic." Unfortunately, people missed a few facts that made these findings irrelevant to real-world scenarios. First of all, this study looked at the absorption rate of whey protein in the fasted state. On it's own, and with no meals eaten beforehand, 30 grams of whey protein is absorbed within a mere 3-4 hours. With meals eaten earlier in the day, or if you'd consume a whey shake after a meal, absorption would be much slower.

Second of all, whey protein is the fastest protein of all and digests at 10 g/hour. Casein is much slower; in Boirie's study, the casein protein was still being absorbed when they stopped the experiment 7 hours later. Most whole food proteins are absorbed at a rate of 3-6 grams an hour. Add other macronutrients to that and they'll take longer."


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## Built (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks for posting that, Marat. I remembered reading it on Martin's site, but lacked sufficient motivation to retrieve it.


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## Marat (Dec 1, 2010)

Welcome. It's basically my homepage.


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## juggernaut (Dec 1, 2010)

I remember Lou Ferrigno stating, "I can ondly dake dirty grams of pwroteeen at a time. Dat's awwll da body can protcess." 

Kind of figured it out from there that it was nonsensical.


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## MrRockstar (Dec 1, 2010)

mass xxx shakes from gnc 2-3 a day on top of what you already eat, and pasta and hamburgers as snacks. alot of mornings I'd cook a box of pasta, put it in a freezer bag and take it to work, eat it throughout the day. I went from 155-180 in 2 months doin this.


But be careful I'm in the diet and nutriton section looking for clean eating tips because I want to trade the keg I got back in for the 6 pack I had.


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## juggernaut (Dec 1, 2010)

MrRockstar said:


> mass xxx shakes from gnc 2-3 a day on top of what you already eat, and pasta and hamburgers as snacks. alot of mornings I'd cook a box of pasta, put it in a freezer bag and take it to work, eat it throughout the day. I went from 155-180 in 2 months doin this.
> 
> 
> But be careful I'm in the diet and nutriton section looking for clean eating tips because I want to trade the keg I got back in for the 6 pack I had.



and how much of this was fat genius?


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## MrRockstar (Dec 1, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> and how much of this was fat genius?


I dont have time for gay arguments with key board clint eastwoods but it is funny that you think I give two shits that you took the time out of your day to neg rep me and write me a nasty little message. lol.

dude said he was stuck and wanted to get to 180. Anytime you wana gain alot of weight in a short amount of time some of it will be fat. To be perfectly honest with you, yea I gained some fat, mostly in my stomach and I mentioned this above ( thats normaly where people store most of their fat). But I also gained a large amount of muscle in my chest shoulders legs and arms and now I'm cutting so with a good cutting diet I'll lose some fat (and yes some of that size and strength) but I'll keep alot of the new muscle. *Thats how bulking and cutting cycles work.* Especially for hardgainers. 

He didnt ask "whats the cleanest way to get to 180 so that I'll look like a fucking ken doll when I reach my goal." he said I'm on a plateau and I want to break it.


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## Work IN Progress (Dec 1, 2010)

Thats Funny shit right there.  Not making light of being deaf but you pretty much nailed it.


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## juggernaut (Dec 1, 2010)

I negged you because you're incredibly stupid. Who in the fuck just wants to get to a number and be fat? And I find it hard to believe you gain any discernable muscle in a matter of 2 or 3 months with the use of a maltodextrin based weight gainer. Granted if you did gain any weight you put on about 2-3 lbs of muscle if you're lucky and 17 lbs of fat. 
That's a great tradeoff dumbass. 

Your pal,

Clint



> > and how much of this was fat genius?
> 
> 
> I dont have time for gay arguments with key board clint eastwoods but it is funny that you think I give two shits that you took the time out of your day to neg rep me and write me a nasty little message. lol.
> ...




Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk


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## juggernaut (Dec 1, 2010)

Dsc how do you train? Can you post your routine? Aside from any flaws in your diet it might also be that your training structure needs to be reworked. Not looking for numbers but sets, reps and exercise selection.


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## MrRockstar (Dec 1, 2010)

Thats really funny considering my bench went up from 185 to 235 in those two months, not lying. no bullshit. I can take pics of the scale and pics of me pressing the weight if you want. I just did what this guy is trying to do and I was having the same problems he is having with the plateau. bulking, dirty as mine may be works.
The cutting cycle is for cleaning up your physique. Mine didnt get that much fat anyway.

Lets just entertain your attempts to bash how I gained my weight. (and it does look good, I went home on leave and even my friends mom was on my dick) the more weight you have the more you can push. So either way ya look at it, my way has a pay off. But as I said above bulking is where you eat till you're full and eat some more, get your calories, espeeeeecially if you're stuck at one weight.
So maybe this guy does wana look like ken during his bulking phase, if so then by all meens maybe your way will work. But I know for a fact beyond a doubt my way will have him at 190 before he knows it if he sticks to it. Because My goal was 180 in 3 months from 155 and it only took 2.


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## Built (Dec 1, 2010)

25 lbs in two months, for a young undeveloped male... sure. Totally possible that a great deal of the gains were muscle. Some was glycogen, some was bloat, some was poo and some was fat, but a good solid 15+ lbs of it could easily have been muscle. 

Note that those types of gains will not persist beyond this initial burst, but in the beginning, certainly. 

I'll rep you some, rockstar. Evens out the damage. Juggs, you know I love you but go grab your wife or something; settle down.


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## dsc123 (Dec 2, 2010)

Jugernaut I have posted my training routine on the first page, I've had some great strength gains from it.


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## juggernaut (Dec 2, 2010)

Built said:


> I'll rep you some, rockstar. Evens out the damage. Juggs, you know I love you but go grab your wife or something; settle down.



I did...and it did the trick!


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## juggernaut (Dec 2, 2010)

Merkaba said:


> Here ya go:  Quit bullshitting and eat like you're serious.
> 
> 
> "That's all"


Merkaba is correct. But make intelligent choices with food. Built's got the right idea with olive oil shots. It's an easy way to hammer in some extra calories in the right form.


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## juggernaut (Dec 2, 2010)

dsc123 said:


> Jugernaut I have posted my training routine on the first page, I've had some great strength gains from it.



Ok, got it. It isnt bad; I'd change a few things but overall not bad. Since your goal is to add mass, why not try a program proven to put mass on? Like a 20 rep squat variation? Adding in 1 gallon of milk is also a great move since it is a good source of macronutrients.


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## dsc123 (Dec 2, 2010)

i have started to drink a lot of whole milk, and the 20 rep squat variation could be a possiblity, what would be the best way to include it in my regime?


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## juggernaut (Dec 2, 2010)

dsc123 said:


> i have started to drink a lot of whole milk, and the 20 rep squat variation could be a possiblity, what would be the best way to include it in my regime?



Glad you're open to suggestions. I've given this to my clients who've wanted to put mass on. Gaz did a writeup on this on his site. I grew like a weed with this when I was a newb many years ago. 

For squats and deads, pick a weight you can do just 10 reps with. go to 20, but take deep breath in between reps.

*Session 1:*
20 rep squats 1x20
Dumbbell Pullover; 1x12
5 minute rest;
Romanian Deadlifts; 2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps
Weighted Pullups; 2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps
.
*Session 2:*
20 rep standard deadlift 1x20
Dumbbell Pullover; 1x12
5 minute rest;
Barbell Push Press; 2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps
Hang Cleans;2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps
.
*Session 3:*
20 rep squats 1x20
Dumbbell Pullover; 1x12
5 minute rest;
Incline Bench Press; 2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps
Barbell Rows; 2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps

4 days left, simply rest or add in 20 minute cardio sessions (3 at the most) for better calorie partitioning.


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## 258884 (Dec 2, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> Glad you're open to suggestions. I've given this to my clients who've wanted to put mass on. Gaz did a writeup on this on his site. I grew like a weed with this when I was a newb many years ago.
> 
> For squats and deads, pick a weight you can do just 10 reps with. go to 20, but take deep breath in between reps.
> 
> ...


 

XMAS came early.....This will be my Feb-June 2011 plan. Compiling my gear over Winter. Thx Juggernaut


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## juggernaut (Dec 2, 2010)

One thing 258884; do not underestimate the value of rest. It is absolutely crucial in this program. Both in between sets (taking about a 5 minute break after the killer set), and outside of the gym. The low impact cardio should really be used for active recovery. You'll also need a foam roller for the day after. Learn how to use it effectively for deep tissue massage.


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## MrRockstar (Dec 2, 2010)

Thanks built, and juggernaut no hard feelings here.


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## dsc123 (Dec 2, 2010)

looks like a program that ill definately try, ive gained 4 pounds in a couple of weeks now thanks to the help from everyone am now 174. and my strength is still increasing, so will carry on as i am for now.


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## juggernaut (Dec 2, 2010)

MrRockstar said:


> Thanks built, and juggernaut no hard feelings here.



Same here.


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## juggernaut (Dec 2, 2010)

dsc123 said:


> looks like a program that ill definately try, ive gained 4 pounds in a couple of weeks now thanks to the help from everyone am now 174. and my strength is still increasing, so will carry on as i am for now.



The program I listed will put strength gains through the roof. If you need assistance with any of the exercises, let me know.


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## aussie1 (Dec 2, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> Glad you're open to suggestions. I've given this to my clients who've wanted to put mass on. Gaz did a writeup on this on his site. I grew like a weed with this when I was a newb many years ago.
> 
> For squats and deads, pick a weight you can do just 10 reps with. go to 20, but take deep breath in between reps.
> 
> ...



alot of compound, exercises look good. Just wondering the reasoning behind the reps and sets? Why 20 reps of squats and not like 3 x 8? Just think i would leave the gym feeling i havent done enough if i just did 1 set of barbell rows for 5 reps. Also why is back worked 3 times in the week? Why arent muscle groups separated for different days so you can recover?

Not being a smartass or anything just interested cause it looks different to the standard gym-goers workout? Just wondering what the reasoning behind it is


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## dianbolblueheart (Dec 2, 2010)

oh yeah true true


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## juggernaut (Dec 3, 2010)

aussie1 said:


> alot of compound, exercises look good. Just wondering the reasoning behind the reps and sets? Why 20 reps of squats and not like 3 x 8? Just think i would leave the gym feeling i havent done enough if i just did 1 set of barbell rows for 5 reps. Also why is back worked 3 times in the week? Why arent muscle groups separated for different days so you can recover?
> 
> Not being a smartass or anything just interested cause it looks different to the standard gym-goers workout? Just wondering what the reasoning behind it is



A couple of reasons: 
a) the lower area of the body is more receptive (growth wise) to higher volume work; 
b) after these workouts, however brief are extremely brutal and hit the areas like none other. In short, they do the job. There's no reason to isolate or do a multi-volume set simply for the sake of just doing it. The body part along with the stabilizers get hit and there's no reason to completely annihilate it;  
c) the back is worked throughout the week, but the entire posterior chain is a vast area to train all in one workout;
d) I never prescribe to the typical or the "standard gym-goers" workouts. Everything I do, from training my clients to running my businesses is research based. Why do more when you can do less and get more bang for the buck? Point of flexion, multi-angle workouts, in my opinion are simply theoretical high volume workouts that indeed have their place in training repertoire, but again why do more where you can meet a goal in a lesser amount of time and work?


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## aussie1 (Dec 6, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> A couple of reasons:
> a) the lower area of the body is more receptive (growth wise) to higher volume work;
> b) after these workouts, however brief are extremely brutal and hit the areas like none other. In short, they do the job. There's no reason to isolate or do a multi-volume set simply for the sake of just doing it. The body part along with the stabilizers get hit and there's no reason to completely annihilate it;
> c) the back is worked throughout the week, but the entire posterior chain is a vast area to train all in one workout;
> d) I never prescribe to the typical or the "standard gym-goers" workouts. Everything I do, from training my clients to running my businesses is research based. Why do more when you can do less and get more bang for the buck? Point of flexion, multi-angle workouts, in my opinion are simply theoretical high volume workouts that indeed have their place in training repertoire, but again why do more where you can meet a goal in a lesser amount of time and work?



alright thanks man i been doing this workout for the last 3 months  and have seen good gains along with increase in strength each week but am looking to change it up a bit what do u recommend

looking to gain mass

day 1(back bi's)
-Bent over barbell rows 6-10 x 3
-Lat pulldown 8-10 x 3
-Deadlift 12 x 3
-Barbell curl 8 x 3
- outer head bicep exercise (hammer curls, concentration curls, close grip curls ect) 10 x 3

day2(chest tris)
-incline dumbell press 8 x 3
-flat bench 8 x 3
- dips or flys  12 x 3
-close grip bench 8 x 3
-skull crusher 8 x 3

day 3(legs)
- barbell squat 12 x 3
- leg extension 12 x 3
- lying leg curls 12 x 3

day 4 (shoulders)
- military press 8 x 3
- upright row 8 x 3
- barbell shrugs 10 x 3
- rear raises 8 x 10
-will sometimes do side or front raises

what u reckon? it is a kind of typical gym workout.
- i have 3 days of rest but often will work abs or box on these days off.

you might think it is too much but keep in mind ive just started my first test cycle on 3rd week atm.


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## juggernaut (Dec 6, 2010)

aussie1 said:


> alright thanks man i been doing this workout for the last 3 months  and have seen good gains along with increase in strength each week but am looking to change it up a bit what do u recommend
> 
> looking to gain mass
> 
> ...



What are your goals?


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## aussie1 (Dec 7, 2010)

basically put on as much muscle as possible without gaining too much fat.. as it is summer over here,

been training for about 3 years, felt i was a hard gainer to begin with started off at 143 am 5 foot 10ish, then got to 180 in about a year, plateaued at 180 for a while, started boxing training for a bit n lost some weight, then started training again and now at 186 with a fairly low bf

on test 350 mg a week, fourth jab 2morro, so far put on a kilo (2.2 pounds)


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## Gazhole (Dec 7, 2010)

I would go with the program Juggernaut posted above. 20 Rep Breathing Squats have packed more muscle on more people in the last 50 years than any other program. The other elements of the program are well thought-out. I'm a firm believer in doing way more warmups than true work sets.

On 5/3/1 right now i'm doing 6 warmup sets before a single work set for my main exercise. One work set is more than enough stimulation for growth and strength gains, providing you are COMPLETELY warmed up so that all muscle fibres, connective tissues, and the nervous system are working together.

You also need to work hard enough to require a good few minutes rest before moving onto your next exercises.

Over-emphasis on volume at a static load kinda prevents you from doing this because by the time you're warmed up you're already fatigued.

You aren't warmed up and you jump into lifting your work-weight, not all the muscle fibres will be firing properly, so the ones that are have to do more work. They get fatigued.  Second set comes around, some of your fibres are now warmed up, others are fatigued, others still aren't warmed up. This cycle continues. By the time all your muscle fibres are warmed up, most of them are already fucked.

This is why a lot of people doing this in the gym end up doing sets of 10, 10, 8, 6 instead of 10, 10, 10, 10 like they wanted. The only way to combat this is by going lighter for all four sets, which may or may not provide adequate growth stimulation.

Training like this CAN be done, it's just a lot more of a ball-ache getting the poundage and volume right.

Doing a few progressively heavier (but submaximal) warmup sets will get everything warmed up without producing too much fatigue, oxygen debt, or metabolites that impact performance. You can also gauge the correct weight to use for the work set by how the warmups feel. 

When that set rolls around, you'll be confident, warmed up, and fired up to actually give it 100% of your effort and concentration.

A nice by-product of this approach is that you always have something nice and easy to beat next time you train. Trying to increase the weight or reps on 4 sets is a far bigger jump than just doing it for one set.

That was a huge almost off-topic post, but fuck it. I'm really bored of this paper i'm writing. I couldn't care less about serum triglycerides at this point. I wanna talk about squats


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## juggernaut (Dec 7, 2010)

aussie1 said:


> basically put on as much muscle as possible without gaining too much fat.. as it is summer over here,
> 
> been training for about 3 years, felt i was a hard gainer to begin with started off at 143 am 5 foot 10ish, then got to 180 in about a year, plateaued at 180 for a while, started boxing training for a bit n lost some weight, then started training again and now at 186 with a fairly low bf
> 
> on test 350 mg a week, fourth jab 2morro, so far put on a kilo (2.2 pounds)



Well, try the above program. It can be used well for gaining a shitload of muscle especially when optimized. As for calories and bodyfat, up what your maintenance is + 10%. An easy way to do this is to multiply your bodyweight x 15 for a roundabout figure. Add in 10% more calories (best in the form of fat and protein IMO). See what happens.


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## juggernaut (Dec 7, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> I would go with the program Juggernaut posted above. 20 Rep Breathing Squats have packed more muscle on more people in the last 50 years than any other program. The other elements of the program are well thought-out. I'm a firm believer in doing way more warmups than true work sets.
> 
> On 5/3/1 right now i'm doing 6 warmup sets before a single work set for my main exercise. One work set is more than enough stimulation for growth and strength gains, providing you are COMPLETELY warmed up so that all muscle fibres, connective tissues, and the nervous system are working together.
> 
> ...



Serum triglycerides...wow sounds exciting!

Good post Gaz. Well put.


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## dsc123 (Dec 7, 2010)

Well I'm definately going to give the routine a try within the next few weeks, am going to be practising squats and deadlifts on 10 reps Because recently I've been doing sets of 5 reps, then I will no what weight I should start the 20 reps at.


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## juggernaut (Dec 7, 2010)

dsc123 said:


> Well I'm definately going to give the routine a try within the next few weeks, am going to be practising squats and deadlifts on 10 reps Because recently I've been doing sets of 5 reps, then I will no what weight I should start the 20 reps at.



A safer alternative is to use a calculator found on google. If you give me your weight used I can give you a rough idea of where to start.


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## dsc123 (Dec 7, 2010)

I was doing 5 sets of 5 reps at around 200lbs


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## aussie1 (Dec 7, 2010)

so use believe there is no point in isolating the arms?


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## AmFitNow (Dec 8, 2010)

All my life, I have had the same type of problem when it came to gaining weight. Let me tell you, I am 45 now, 5' 1", and weigh 106 (same as I did when I was 18!).
My 19 year old son is about 6 feet tall and looks like a bean pole. I think it is a high metabolism.
alot of people called me lucky, but I know exactly how you feel about not bringing your weight to a certain goal.
I posted quickly before having the chance to read all the other replies. 
I am sure someone will post something that you may try and see if it works.


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## AmFitNow (Dec 8, 2010)

Gaz, very well put. i will let my son know to give it a try. Yes, he goes to workout without any warmup, and wonders why nothin is happening. He is very strong, but he can burn out someday if he doesnt train his muscles properly.


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## juggernaut (Dec 8, 2010)

aussie1 said:


> so use believe there is no point in isolating the arms?



Truthfully, no. If you want to throw in some compound work for arms, go ahead. But it wont make much difference. You're pulling and pushing with all that you have in the other compound moves.


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## juggernaut (Dec 8, 2010)

dsc123 said:


> I was doing 5 sets of 5 reps at around 200lbs


Start with about 175lbs for ten reps. See how it goes from there.


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## dsc123 (Dec 8, 2010)

Ok then thanks juggs, great help


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## juggernaut (Dec 8, 2010)

dsc123 said:


> Ok then thanks juggs, great help


let us know


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## dsc123 (Dec 9, 2010)

Yh will do will be starting it in a couple of weeks, and will keep you updated on here


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## juggernaut (Dec 9, 2010)

dsc123 said:


> Yh will do will be starting it in a couple of weeks, and will keep you updated on here



Start with a beginning bodyweight, some profile shots, and beginning weights. Track it through, rinse, lather, repeat.


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## stronger4ever (Dec 11, 2010)

Merkaba said:


> Here ya go:  Quit bullshitting and eat like you're serious.
> 
> 
> "That's all"



LOL good advice


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## dsc123 (Dec 15, 2010)

hi juggernaut, i have started the routine this week, one problem is I'm struggling to hold the weight for the whole 20 reps whilst doing the deadlifts, and had to put the weight down a couple of times.


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## Work IN Progress (Dec 15, 2010)

Straps???


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## juggernaut (Dec 15, 2010)

dsc123 said:


> hi juggernaut, i have started the routine this week, one problem is I'm struggling to hold the weight for the whole 20 reps whilst doing the deadlifts, and had to put the weight down a couple of times.



No straps needed. You need to lower the weight big guy. And on a deadlift, why wouldnt you put the weight down? Place it down controllably and dont bounce into your next rep. Each rep should be performed as it's own.


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## dsc123 (Dec 15, 2010)

Oh ok then, I've been told by the gym instructor to go down as low as the middle of my shins. So u suggest going right down to the floor?


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## aussie1 (Dec 16, 2010)

think he means control the weight down for the negative portion of the lift and yeh the barbell should touch the ground


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## Built (Dec 16, 2010)

dsc123 said:


> Oh ok then, I've been told by the gym instructor to go down as low as the middle of my shins. So u suggest going right down to the floor?


 
Hold up here - dsc, you doing Romanian, or conventional? RDLs are to mid-shin.


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## juggernaut (Dec 16, 2010)

Built said:


> Hold up here - dsc, you doing Romanian, or conventional? RDLs are to mid-shin.



Good question Built. I believe he was referring to standard deads, but I didnt catch that until you just brought that up. IN that case dsc, Built is correct.


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## dsc123 (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm doing the conventional deadlifts, will make sure I go to the ground next time thanks for the input


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## dsc123 (Dec 20, 2010)

Should I put the weight down and lift each rep as it's own? So I can get good grip for each rep? Sorry might be a stupid question, just need it cleared up. Thanks


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## Marat (Dec 20, 2010)

Your grip strength will improve over time. Until then, regripping is preferred over pulling with poor/lazy form.


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## dsc123 (Dec 20, 2010)

ok then thanks marat


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## Culbert (Dec 23, 2010)

yes eat minimum 30 banana every day and 2 boiled egg in breakfast with bread milk and meat also  its help you


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## dsc123 (Dec 23, 2010)

Haha 30 bananas is that some sort of joke?


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## juggernaut (Dec 23, 2010)

dsc123 said:


> Haha 30 bananas is that some sort of joke?



Must be. I dont get it. You?


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## dsc123 (Dec 23, 2010)

Na i ain't got a clue! Anyway juggernaut I'm liking the new routine, my weight has been increasing weekly and tonight I shall be doing session 3! It's all going well so far. Thanks again


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## juggernaut (Dec 23, 2010)

dsc123 said:


> Na i ain't got a clue! Anyway juggernaut I'm liking the new routine, my weight has been increasing weekly and tonight I shall be doing session 3! It's all going well so far. Thanks again



Keep it going with updates!


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## dsc123 (Dec 23, 2010)

i weighed in today before my work out, am up to 178lbs, thats 4 pounds in a week! i had a really good workout i managed to push all 20 reps out on the squats, so will be adding 2.5kg on for next time. managed to push 7 reps fairly easily for 170 pounds in bench press which im quite happy with, will definately be hoping for 8-9 reps next time, then be adding another 2.5kg when i reach 10 reps. so far all is going well and its only been a week!


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## stronger4ever (Dec 23, 2010)

Built said:


> I know. I'm shocked at how much more comfortable it is for me. Some mornings I wonder how I'm going to make it but then I somehow always do. I didn't eat until 6:20 PM last Saturday.
> 
> So odd.



I see how fasting can be useful while cutting, especially since fasting increases natural GH production, but while bulking? I don't think so. In my experience I have noticed that every time I take break too long between meals while bulking I don't gain weight and sometimes I lose weight. Actually It is easier to eat smaller meals throughout the day than eating fewer larger meals. I just don't get as bloated from it. I know you know a lot about this but probably that method doesn't work for everybody, at least it doesn't work for me.


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## Built (Dec 23, 2010)

If it doesn't work for you, you weren't eating above maintenance. None of it really matters if you don't hit your calories - bulking OR cutting. I don't find that it "works" because of gh. It works because I maintain a deficit. This just makes it easier for me to run that deficit. If eating more frequently makes it easier for you to eat at a surplus, you should. I certainly find it a lot easier to overeat when I eat more frequently - whoever came up with eating frequent small meals for cutting is a freaking idiot. I was ALWAYS thinking about food when I tried to do that. Now I think about food until about noon.


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Dec 24, 2010)

Built said:


> If it doesn't work for you, you weren't eating above maintenance. None of it really matters if you don't hit your calories - bulking OR cutting. I don't find that it "works" because of gh. It works because I maintain a deficit. This just makes it easier for me to run that deficit. If eating more frequently makes it easier for you to eat at a surplus, you should. I certainly find it a lot easier to overeat when I eat more frequently - whoever came up with eating frequent small meals for cutting is a freaking idiot. I was ALWAYS thinking about food when I tried to do that. Now I think about food until about noon.



Same here. I need 3 large meals. The 6 smaller meals makes me start chewing on the dead skin on the end of my finger tips


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## juggernaut (Dec 24, 2010)

Built said:


> I I certainly find it a lot easier to overeat when I eat more frequently - whoever came up with eating frequent small meals for cutting is a freaking idiot. I was ALWAYS thinking about food when I tried to do that. *Now I think about food until about noon.*


I actually thought it was just me who felt that way. Interesting. 

Good point on the frequent feedings.


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## aussie1 (Dec 24, 2010)

Culbert said:


> yes eat minimum 30 banana every day and 2 boiled egg in breakfast with bread milk and meat also  its help you



spot on man the old 30 banana diet, ive cycled the 30 banana a day diet a couple times and have good results, im currently just maintaining my size popping about 20 bananas a day atm

Have just  called my source at the local fruit market and hes getting in bulk amounts of bananas, looking to gain about 30 pound next cycle so am thinking of starting the 35 banana a day cycle. 
Has anyone here cycled the 35 bananas a day diet? what are the sides like? Do i need an AI? I have clomid for pct, ???

cheers


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## juggernaut (Dec 24, 2010)

Built said:


> If it doesn't work for you, you weren't eating above maintenance. None of it really matters if you don't hit your calories - bulking OR cutting. I don't find that it "works" because of gh. It works because I maintain a deficit. This just makes it easier for me to run that deficit. If eating more frequently makes it easier for you to eat at a surplus, you should. I certainly find it a lot easier to overeat when I eat more frequently - whoever came up with eating frequent small meals for cutting is a freaking idiot. I was ALWAYS thinking about food when I tried to do that. Now I think about food until about noon.



MA, the one thing I cant get my mind around is how easy the IF diet is. It's still a friggin mindblower to me!


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## dsc123 (Feb 8, 2011)

hi everyone, i thought i would post back in this thread instead of starting another one. just to let you no i have pretty much reached my 180lbs goal, without putting on much fat at all. so would like to thank everyone who helped especially juggernaut for the routine. i am now hoping to bulk to 190-195lbs for summer! i have posted my diet up in another thread and would like some input on mixing my routine up to a 4-day split. 2x10 warm ups, 2x10 working sets for each exercise

tues- back&tris 
deadlifts
t-bar rows
lat pulldowns
1-arm dumbell row
close grip bench
cable pulldown

thurs-chest&bis
bench press
incline bench press
flys
hammer curls
ez bar curls

sat-legs&abs
squats
leg press
leg curl
leg extensions
calf raises

sun-shoulders
military press
shoulder press
lateral raises
shrugs

please let me know what you guys think, and what needs changing!
thanks


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## Built (Feb 8, 2011)

dsc123 said:


> hi everyone, i thought i would post back in this thread instead of starting another one. just to let you no i have pretty much reached my 180lbs goal, without putting on much fat at all. so would like to thank everyone who helped especially juggernaut for the routine. i am now hoping to bulk to 190-195lbs for summer! i have posted my diet up in another thread and would like some input on mixing my routine up to a 4-day split. 2x10 warm ups, 2x10 working sets for each exercise


Hey, props for hitting your target! 

Now, I'm looking at your workout. I like the exercise selection for the most part, and you've got a good deal of pulling which is great. What concerns me is how it's spread out. Tuesday is one hell of a workout; meanwhile your shoulder day looks pretty light. Maybe that's the way your week works out and you like having a day that's not too taxing, but you might consider moving deads out of tuesday and putting them somewhere else; maybe deads and shoulders could be a good mix. 

tues- back&tris 
t-bar rows
weighted chinups
lat pulldowns
1-arm dumbell row
close grip bench
cable pulldown

thurs-chest&bis
bench press
incline bench press
flys
hammer curls
ez bar curls

sat-legs&abs
squats
leg press
Romanian deadlifts or good mornings or glute ham raises
walking lunges
SHELC
calf raises - if your calves lag, consider training them on non-leg days, tucking them between sets of upper-body work. They're not particularly taxing, but as an add-on at the end of leg-day, they tend to get ignored. 

sun-deads and shoulders
deadlifts
Got Built? » The Shoulders of Giants

Maybe something like that?


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## dsc123 (Feb 9, 2011)

great help built, thankyou. any chance you could review my diet, ive not had to much feedback on it and am desperate to finally get my diet up to check.
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/diet-nutrition/121243-time-get-serious.html


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## cbohning (Feb 9, 2011)

Built said:


> I'm always learning new things.
> 
> Up until two years ago, I thought I'd go catabolic if I missed a post-workout meal, or hell, if I skipped breakfast! Then I read leangains site (Martin Berkhan). He posted up what he does, his pix, and the supporting research.
> 
> ...



I tried bulking w/ his method it was just too much food at one time I ended up blending it cause my jaw was going to fall off after i was done w/ my meal!! but cutting would be a different story


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## tom161191 (Feb 10, 2011)

could some 1 help me out on a basic bulk diet, i mean like give me an example of a days food intake ?


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## cbohning (Feb 10, 2011)

tom161191 said:


> could some 1 help me out on a basic bulk diet, i mean like give me an example of a days food intake ?



You shouldnt highjack someones post but whatever.. This very general, go to link below enter in stats, it will give you a number. That number is how many calories your body needs to maintain your current weight. add 500 calories to that number and you should start gaining weight. Or you can multiply your body weight by 18 and get a general estimate of how many calories you need to bulk. You need about 1.5-2 grams of protein per 1 pound of body mass. And 2-2.5 grams of carbs per 1 pound body mass. Dont forget EFAs, try to keep your fat around or below 100grams a day, I like olive oil and almonds. Good luck!

Calorie Calculator - Daily Caloric Needs


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