# WHY you don't use nolva with a 19-nor (tren, npp, deca)



## XYZ (Dec 29, 2011)

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2005 May;95(1-5):83-9.

Aromatase inhibitors: cellular and molecular effects.

Miller WR, Anderson TJ, White S, Larionov A, Murray J, Evans D, Krause A, Dixon JM.

Breast Unit, Western General Hospital, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK. w.r.miller@ed.ac.uk

Marked cellular and molecular changes may occur in breast cancers following treatment of postmenopausal breast cancer patients with aromatase inhibitors. Neoadjuvant protocols, in which treatment is given with the primary tumour still within the breast, are particularly illuminating. In Edinburgh, we have shown that 3 months treatment with either anastrozole, exemestane or letrozole produces pathological responses in the majority of oestrogen receptor (ER)-rich tumours (39/59) as manifested by reduced cellularity/increased fibrosis. Changes in histological grading may also take place, most notably a reduction in mitotic figures. This probably reflects an influence on proliferation as most tumours (82%) show a marked decrease in the proliferation marker, Ki67. These effects are generally more dramatic than seen with tamoxifen given in the same setting. *Differences between aromatase inhibitors and tamoxifen are also apparent in changes in steroid hormone expression. Thus, immuno-staining for progesterone receptor (PgR) is reduced in almost all cases by aromatase inhibitors, becoming undetectable in many. This contrasts with effects of tamoxifen in which the most common change on PgR is to increase expression. *Changes in proliferation occur rapidly following the onset of exposure to aromatase inhibitors. Thus, neoadjuvant studies with letrozole in which tumour was sampled before and after 14 days and 3 months treatment show that decreased expression of Ki67 occur at 14 days and, in many cases, the effect is greater at 14 days than 3 months. These early changes precede evidence of clinical response but do not predict for it. However, this study design has allowed RNA analysis of sequential biopsies taken during the neoadjuvant therapy. Based on clustering techniques, it has been possible to subdivide tumours into groups showing distinct patterns of molecular changes. These changes in tumour gene expression may allow definition of tumour cohorts with differing sensitivity to aromatase inhibitors and permit early recognition of response and resistance.


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## OldSchoolLifter (Dec 29, 2011)

Great Info, Thank you for sharing.


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## chucky1 (Dec 29, 2011)

about time bro, thanks, maybe we can put an end to this question now.  STICKY!


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## J.thom (Dec 29, 2011)

nice


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## Glycomann (Dec 29, 2011)

Yup good abstract.  Glad someone finally found and posted.  I was on NPP about a year ago and added nolva and it was like gas, match, fire, BOOM gyno.


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## yerg (Dec 29, 2011)

man just gotta jump in here,,, ive been using nor19s with nolva for years... Its not for everyone, but id venture to say some are more sensitive than others... having said that, im not using nolva at all anymore....


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## bigbenj (Dec 29, 2011)

Heavy posted an article which said that after 4-5 weeks of nolva treatment, upregulation of prolactin receptors dwindled down. I believe he said something to the effect( I'm paraphrasing) that you should run nolva a couple weeks prior to starting a 19-nor included cycle. That way you don't run into upregulation problems, thus being able to use nolva while on the cycle.

Running nolva that long seems very suppressive though. Also, you can make any claim sound good by posting an article from the web. So it goes either way.


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## D-Lats (Dec 29, 2011)

Lol! The debate continues. Ive used it and never had an issue, i probably wont use nolva much anymore though due to the joint pain it causes me.


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## yerg (Dec 29, 2011)

formestane... just sayin


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## bulldogz (Dec 29, 2011)

sticky this bish..!


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## oufinny (Dec 29, 2011)

yerg said:


> formestane... just sayin



Yes, this or any other AI.


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## MDR (Dec 29, 2011)

Should be a sticky.  Question comes up a lot.


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## OfficerFarva (Dec 29, 2011)

I find it amazing how you guys think *ONE* _ABSTRACT_ can answer a fairly complicated question.  It doesn't even say whether they tested on female or male patients.  Most likely it was some super old broads and I'm pretty sure a young/middle age male is a hell of a lot different than a grandma.

Don't get me wrong though, this helps the no 19nor + nolva debate.


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## ANIMALHAUS (Dec 30, 2011)

Sticky!


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## heavyiron (Dec 30, 2011)

bigbenj said:


> Heavy posted an article which said that after 4-5 weeks of nolva treatment, upregulation of prolactin receptors dwindled down. I believe he said something to the effect( I'm paraphrasing) that you should run nolva a couple weeks prior to starting a 19-nor included cycle. That way you don't run into upregulation problems, thus being able to use nolva while on the cycle.
> 
> Running nolva that long seems very suppressive though. Also, you can make any claim sound good by posting an article from the web. So it goes either way.


 In the cancer subjects that up-regulation  of the PGR's occurs, 100% see down regulation after 4 weeks of Nolva. So this may be a basis to start  your Nolva 3-4 weeks BEFORE using Tren/Deca.

Cancer Res. 1981 May;41(5):1984-8.

*Effects of tamoxifen on estrogen and progesterone receptors in human breast cancer.*

Waseda N, Kato Y, Imura H, Kurata M.

*Abstract*

Twenty  patients with primary breast cancer were treated with tamoxifen  (10 mg  p.o. twice a day) for 1 to 4 weeks. Before and after the  tamoxifen  administration, tumor specimens were obtained and assayed for  estrogen  receptors and progesterone receptors (PGR). Total cytosol  estrogen  receptor (ERC) and occupied nuclear estrogen receptor (ERN)  were  measured by hydroxylapatite assay, and unoccupied PGR was measured  by  the dextran-coated charcoal assay. ERC, ERN, and PGR were  detectable in  11, 8, and 6 tumors, respectively, before tamoxifen  administration.  After tamoxifen treatment, ERC decreased in 10 of 11  ERC-positive  tumors. Occupied ERN increased in three of five  ERN-positive tumors  treated with tamoxifen for a short period (1 to 2  weeks), but they  decreased in all of three ERN-positive tumors after  longer  administration (3 to 4 weeks). PGR increased in three of five   ERN-positive tumors after short-term tamoxifen treatment, but they   decreased in all of three tumors treated by the drug for a longer   period. Increased PGR responses were accompanied by an increase of  ERN  in two of three ERN-positive tumors. These results suggest that   tamoxifen interacts with the estrogen receptor system in human breast   cancer tissue and may be estrogenic during short treatment, while longer   treatment results in an antiestrogenic response.

PMID:7214366 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## exphys88 (Dec 30, 2011)

This study shows an association between nolva and the increased expression of the progesterone receptor.  But, to be scientific, we have to acknowledge that this does not show a correlation between an upregulation of the receptors *and* gyno.  

You could theorize that an upregulation of the progesterone receptor can lead to gyno, but that is just theorizing, and this study doesn't address that at all.


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## OTG85 (Dec 30, 2011)

I use to use it with tren and had no problems.But I now only use nolva in pct along with clomid


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## bigbenj (Dec 30, 2011)

heavyiron said:


> In the cancer subjects that up-regulation  of the PGR's occurs, 100% see down regulation after 4 weeks of Nolva. So this may be a basis to start  your Nolva 3-4 weeks BEFORE using Tren/Deca.
> 
> Cancer Res. 1981 May;41(5):1984-8.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting it. I couldn't remember where it was.


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## l69lou (Dec 30, 2011)

exphysiologist88 said:


> This study shows an association between nolva and the increased expression of the progesterone receptor. But, to be scientific, we have to acknowledge that this does not show a correlation between an upregulation of the receptors *and* gyno.
> 
> You could theorize that an upregulation of the progesterone receptor can lead to gyno, but that is just theorizing, and this study doesn't address that at all.


 It does sometimes become easy to see what we want in these studies. As an old dude I have to say again that this was stop for MANY years in BB -to use nolva with 19 nor's that is. I have a personal theory that some of this may have to do with the much higher doses of AAS that are in use today. However in my last run I tried aromasin and loved how dry it kept me with test and npp and will stay with it now. These studies are almost never with trained BBer's using real world doses of AAS so we do the best we can to gleam what we can. Thanks for finding that piece though!


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## exphys88 (Dec 30, 2011)

l69lou said:


> It does sometimes become easy to see what we want in these studies. As an old dude I have to say again that this was stop for MANY years in BB -to use nolva with 19 nor's that is. I have a personal theory that some of this may have to do with the much higher doses of AAS that are in use today. However in my last run I tried aromasin and loved how dry it kept me with test and npp and will stay with it now. These studies are almost never with trained BBer's using real world doses of AAS so we do the best we can to gleam what we can. Thanks for finding that piece though!



I'm one who usually stays away from being convinced of something based on anecdotal evidence.  But, in this case, we have quite a few guys who have always used the two together without any problems.  Then a study comes out and finds an association between two variables that don't include gyno. Now everyone is convinced that there is an association between gyno and the upregulation of the progesterone receptors.

This could very well be true, but it hasn't been demonstrated, and the anecdotal evidence points otherwise.

I have said this many times before, but I'll reiterate that I'm in no place to debate this topic, and I have no opinion on this matter.  I'm just trying to remain objective about the study and what it actually determined.


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## Roaddkingg (Dec 30, 2011)

*All very good information*

How about this situation hypotheticaly.
Say a person was doing a cycle with 19nors lets say NPP Or Tren.
Was taking arimadex @ what many of us like @.5mgs mon, wed & fri.
Along with cabergoline which I'd say most would run @.5 2x wkly. 
And they began to have symptoms which then we would most likely assume they were progesterone related. Even though the cycle would ofcourse have test in it.
Would one then just up the dose of the adex & caber?
What would be the next step IF this wasnt working?


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## OfficerFarva (Jan 22, 2012)

Here's the report.


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## shortnwide (Jan 23, 2012)

I learn this the hard way back in '01 with Deca and Nova.


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