# Big Shoulders With Just Front Raises?



## Logman (Nov 2, 2011)

I separated my left shoulder very badly 10 years ago and it's always held back my lifting.  All shoulder exercises are painful except front raises so I'm thinking of doing front raises only, but hardcore (like 4x8 3 min break then 4x8 again).  Can this build my pathetic delts?  Surely has to be better than a few weeks of presses and flies and then having to take a month or more off due to pain.


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## Gissurjon (Nov 2, 2011)

Just front raises? No presses at all?


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## Logman (Nov 2, 2011)

Maybe the odd standing shoulder press, like one session out of 4 (once a month).  I did press behind neck yesterday and had to stop after 2 sets due to pain. 

I've tried corner press (barbell with weights on one end, other end stuck in corner) but that is more painful than standing shoulder press.  Flies were okay for a while, now I can't flay my elbows more than 45 degrees.  Side raises, impossible.  Front raise is the only thing that doesn't really force the clavicle off the shoulder.


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## VolcomX311 (Nov 2, 2011)

Logman said:


> I separated my left shoulder very badly 10 years ago and it's always held back my lifting. All shoulder exercises are painful except front raises so I'm thinking of doing front raises only, but hardcore (like 4x8 3 min break then 4x8 again). Can this build my pathetic delts? Surely has to be better than a few weeks of presses and flies and then having to take a month or more off due to pain.


 
Nothing is worth having to take a month or more off for.  Do you bench press or incline press at all?  If front raises are all you can, you coud still add a couple variations.  Holding the Db's with palms facing each other, laying chest first against an incline bench to create greater ROM, see if you can use the barbell and do front raises to a full verticle position.... etc.


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## Logman (Nov 3, 2011)

Yea, I'm doing flat bench and incline bench which I do Saturday and shoulders are Tuesday which gives me 4 days to recover (and I really need those 4 days).  Chest workouts generally don't give me shoulder joint pain (well, sometimes a little but nothing compared to shoulder workouts).  Usually I do flat bench 5x5 then incline at 3x8.  Maybe I should swap these over so I'm giving the shoulders a better workout?

Will try the front raise variations for sure.  Thanks.


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## bigbenj (Nov 3, 2011)

No, you can't. The side medial and lateral heads aren't getting nearly enough stimulation. I don't even do front raises, and have yet to meet anyone who had weak front delts and needed to do front raises


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## Logman (Nov 3, 2011)

Sucks.  I'm screwed.


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## ebn2002 (Nov 3, 2011)

Don't do behind neck press if you have shoulder joint problems.

Try seated DB presses with SMALL ROM, low weight high rep, a couple inches only of movement, don't lock out don't come all the way down.  Just work the muscle not the joint.  And try slowly progressing in weight.

Also do your side and front raises, and try rear delt raises as well.


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## Logman (Nov 3, 2011)

Thanks for the suggestion, will give that a try.  Can't do rear delt raises (or side) though.  Anything that brings my elbows perpendicular to the side puts pressure on teh exact spot where the problem is.  The most behind part of the standard shoulder press is getting the bar up in position (as it flares the elbows out and causes clavicle to rise).  But sure, will try seated with DBs, less weight and more reps.  Generally the problems come from lifting heavy (and of course we all like to lift as heavy as possible).  Will tone it down for shoulders.  See, why didn't I think of that.


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## big60235 (Nov 3, 2011)

I have separated both of my shoulders and have had lots of pain in the past as well. 

Try scaplua muscle strengthening exercises, talk to a physical therapist and they can direct you to what would be best for your personal situation. This has worked best for me, I get on the lat pull down pulley. Lean back more than you would for a typical pulldown, arms fully extended, and only pull your shoulder blades towards the center of your back. There should be no movement in your arms at all. It had help to compensate for my strong pectorals muscle that had pulled my shoulders forward and moved things out of place. 

Also try lean against the bumdbell rack with you back parallel to the floor, hold a 20-25 lb weight in one hand while hold on to the rack with the other(stabilization), let your arm hang towards the floor completely relaxed, swing the weight in small circles like a pendulum, your arms should not be twisting at all, if your shoulder is relaxed you will feel the pressure pull your shoulder joint apart just a hair. Swing each side for 15-20 seconds a couple of times. Helps to take some stress of the joint and reduce the pain. 

Hopefully those will help reduce the pain. The short range of motion presses with light weight will help strengthen the delts. If you can get the joint moving it will help get some lubrication fluids in there that will also reduce the pain. It sounds counter productive but try to stay away from chemical inflammatories, as this reduces your fluid in the joint and dry joints hurt. Use cold for inflammation and heat for pain. 

Report back.


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## CowPimp (Nov 3, 2011)

Maybe you should consider seeing a physical therapist who knows the shoulder well.  Proper strengthening of the scapular stabilizers and rotator cuff could potentially allow you to lift heavier again.  Sometimes thoracic spine mobility or capsular restrictions in the shoulder can also be an issue.


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## Vincent M. (Nov 3, 2011)

This will cause an imbalance , if your bench pressing your doing front delt
You need mid and rear delt try and find a way to work them and leave out the front raises


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## Built (Nov 3, 2011)

You've had some excellent advise from cowpimp and big60235 - you need to get your ROM back and implicit in this is mobility through the scapula. When you DO try any kind of pressing, make sure you retract your scapula and engage the lat. This will keep the shoulder down and back - and keep the rotator cuff out of harm's way. 

I have impingement syndrome, and this has been key to my being able to train shoulders. I cannot do overhead presses, but corner presses and side laterals are fine now that I keep my lats engaged and my scapulae retracted - but it was very hard to retrain the movement patterns so that I fired everything in the right sequences. 

Try it with a very light weight sometime with the Oly bar as a corner press - keep the elbow tucked close to the body, engage (flex) your lat, retract your scapula and try pressing with all this going on. If you still feel pain, of course stop but if you CAN do the movement - even if it's with virtually no weight, work the ROM and over time add weight to it. 

Can you get some A.R.T. done on it?


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## Logman (Nov 3, 2011)

I went to a physical therapist a few months ago and they showed my 2 exercises to strengthen the inner muscles of the shoulder.

1) Hold a length of elastic in one hand behind the back (the hand with good shoulder) and grab the elastic behind back with the other hand (bad shoulder side) and pull until arm is about 45 degrees perpendicular to body.

2) Place both elbows on desk in front of you with forearms pointing straight up, palms facing body.  Grab elastic in both fists and pull.

These exercises did not help in the slightest.



> Also try lean against the bumdbell rack with you back parallel to the floor, hold a 20-25 lb weight in one hand while hold on to the rack with the other(stabilization), let your arm hang towards the floor completely relaxed, swing the weight in small circles like a pendulum, your arms should not be twisting at all, if your shoulder is relaxed you will feel the pressure pull your shoulder joint apart just a hair. Swing each side for 15-20 seconds a couple of times. Helps to take some stress of the joint and reduce the pain.


I've been doing this without weight after any set that gives me pain.  By the way I don't have access to a lat pulldown pulley.  I go to a gym once a week but it's old and all the machines are stone age stuff.  I work out at home with a simple bench.

Built, I live in rural Japan and I have yet to find any rehab place or orthopedic hospital that can help.  The surgeon butchered my shoulder 10 years ago after the snowboard accident that caused teh separated shoulder.  I have no ligaments attaching the clavicle to the shoulder apart from the one that about 3-4 inches from the end (corococlavicular).  The acromioclavicular ligaments are gone as is the cocrocoacromial.  It's the worst kind of separation you could ever have.

I'll try the corner press with better form.  I know for sure I was just throwing it up there and not pulling the shoulder back and engaging the lat.

Thanks for teh advice, I really appreciate it.  I've also fucked up my right groin kickboxing and can't do any leg exercises right now.  The injury looks deep and judging by all the nasty clicking in it from when I did it originally (6 months ago) looks permanent without surgery.  Getting old sucks (I'm 39 btw).


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## Built (Nov 3, 2011)

Getting old DOES suck - and I'm sorry to hear of your injuries. As an older-than-you fossil, myself, allow me to pass along these words of wisdom: there is ALWAYS something to work on. If you can do chinups, work on those - keep your grip narrower than shoulder-width (and ideally, with a neutral grip) and add weight. Try the better-form corner press. A nice way to do these is to press with both hands, but lower with only one. This allows you to overload the eccentrics without pressing too heavy. You can also do them as one-arm push-presses, again lowering under control and again, bypassing the need to press heavy but allowing you to do heavy negatives. Try powercleans - no need to go from the floor or to do the push-press or jerk, but from a hang, give 'em a try if you're able.

Work on your endurance base, flexibility and core stability. Do planks, crunches, whatever floats your boat. If you can squat and deadlift - any type and at any weight - do those. If you have trouble with these, try using an exercise bicycle, but stand - don't sit - and do "sets" of a minute or more at a fair clip and with some resistance. The lactate will burn like a bitch but if you do this while eating at a surplus, your quads will grow, believe me. For proof, look to velodrome cyclists and speedskaters - both basically hold an unweighted partial squat for minutes at a time and both are known for their monster quads. 

Finally, look up my friend Boris Bachman on youtube - he has a shoulder series on his channel you may find helpful:




YouTube Video


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## Merkaba (Nov 3, 2011)

Logman said:


> ...Generally the problems come from lifting heavy (and of course we all like to lift as heavy as possible).  Will tone it down for shoulders.  See, why didn't I think of that.



Lifting heavy or lifting sub heavy with bad form or technique.  

And I seldom lift as heavy as possible.


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## Logman (Nov 3, 2011)

I read on your blog about power cleans and started doing them and they didn't hurt at all.  But I just couldn't see the benefit of it as a shoulder exercise as most of the strength is coming from the core?

Squats I can kind of do but I find them a pain in the neck (literally).  I was thinking about getting something to distribute the weight like this product.  Deadlifts...lower back issues....can't really do them. 

I might add the exercise bike drills to my leg days (when groin is healed).  Good idea.

That video above, is this a warm-up routine for shoulders?


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## Ted Shred (Nov 3, 2011)

Logman said:


> ...  I was thinking about getting something to distribute the weight like this product....



That looks kinda interesting.  Saw a review of it here: Manta Ray Squat Review - Sting Ray 

Can get 'em on Amazon or ebay pretty cheap


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## Built (Nov 3, 2011)

If squats are hurting your neck, you're holding the barbell wrong. Look up low-bar squats - powerlifters do 'em that way and you might be surprised how comfortable they are that way. 

Re cleans and shoulders - I know, and I hear it all the time, but damned if they didn't do more for my shoulders than anything else I've ever done. I contend it's the fast eccentrics that happen at the drop and at the start of the lift. Lots of microtrauma. And stuff. I dunno, I swear sometimes I just make this shit up.


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## Gissurjon (Nov 9, 2011)

Built said:


> If squats are hurting your neck, you're holding the barbell wrong. Look up low-bar squats - powerlifters do 'em that way and you might be surprised how comfortable they are that way.
> 
> Re cleans and shoulders - I know, and I hear it all the time,* but damned if they didn't do more for my shoulders than anything else* I've ever done. I contend it's the fast eccentrics that happen at the drop and at the start of the lift. Lots of microtrauma. And stuff. I dunno, I swear sometimes I just make this shit up.


 
I agree, I have a decent history with power cleaning and it does work wonders for your shoulders.


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