# Why nolvadex is a poor choice



## XYZ (Jul 21, 2010)

1.  Nolva inhibits IGF and GH.

2.  Additional strain to your liver.

3.  Nolva blocks estrogen, it's not a suicidal like aromasin.

4.  Clomid blocks estrogen AND stimulates LH.

5.  Increase in progestin sides.

6.  Nolva does NOT stop the production of estrogen.



.......Still want to use this useless outdated garbage of a drug?


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## Dusters (Jul 21, 2010)

You mean it's a poor choice all around, for pct, stopping gyno, or what?


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## XYZ (Jul 21, 2010)

It's a poor choice for anything.


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## ROID (Jul 21, 2010)

ChocolateThunder said:


> 1.  Nolva inhibits IGF and GH.
> 
> 2.  Additional strain to your liver.
> 
> ...



do you remember where you got this information ?

i agree but I would like to read the article or journal. especially concerning GH and IGF


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## Mike09100 (Jul 21, 2010)

7. Nolvadex kills puppies on a daily basis


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## XYZ (Jul 21, 2010)

ROID said:


> do you remember where you got this information ?
> 
> i agree but I would like to read the article or journal. especially concerning GH and IGF


 

www.pubmed.com


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## JCBourne (Jul 21, 2010)

so for PCT the only SERM needed would be clomid then right? I've heard this a few times that nolva is garbage.


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## Pirate! (Jul 21, 2010)

I much prefer toremifene citrate.


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## Roaddkingg (Jul 21, 2010)

*Aromasin*

As you say chocolate it's suicidal to estro and from what I just read it kills esto up to 85% AND actually helps to raise natural test levels. The half life is only 27 hours so unlike adex it would have to be taken every day instead of EOD. Because it's so much more expensive that has been my main reason for useing adex. Do you think that 12.5mgs daily would be enough to be effective for a fairly light cycle? This way I could split tabs and save a bit that way. It is clearly the best choice but affordability may play into the equation. I will make some comparisons.


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## Flathead (Jul 21, 2010)




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## freakinhuge (Jul 21, 2010)

liquid torem is the newest serm, been wanting to give it a try over nolva for my next pct.


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## JCBourne (Jul 21, 2010)

I'm really curious and I hope someone can give me some feedback.

For a test-e/dbol cycle would clomid be enough for PCT? (of course pct assist, and other supps) but for SERM. I was going to run nolva/clomid.


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## unclem (Jul 22, 2010)

i like nolva, its a try and true drug without many sides and gets rid of gyno extremly fast. these new ais your going to find out down the road when enough people take them there unsafe as well. but like thunder did state they due lower gh and igf but i like it but iam like arimidex more and prami. but i dont use nolvadex only once in great while and can cause testicular cancer in males. it also has a effect on free test levels. and it ruins some of your gains when using test derivitives. only use it you have to for gyno.arimidex helps with my stomach bloat. and prami with sex problems which is rare.


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## unclem (Jul 22, 2010)

Pirate! said:


> I much prefer toremifene citrate.


 
same chemical family as tamoxifen citrate. they tweeked the molecular structure a little, look at the stucture, and, ull see the difference bro. i think one carbon atom was changed. but i mean in no way to you disrespect as your very intellegent thats why i said look at the molecular structure.


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## JCBourne (Jul 22, 2010)

Scratch the nolva then. I'll be using adex on cycle to reduce bloat, but for PCT clomid will be enough?

For gyno I was going to run letro (never had gyno issues though)

Thanks.


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## theCaptn' (Jul 22, 2010)

Exemestane (aromasin) as a research chem is not expensive, however stronger AIs like Letro have their place in heavier cycles.


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## unclem (Jul 22, 2010)

^^^capt'n how do you like the aromasin for bloat does it take it away brother?


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## theCaptn' (Jul 22, 2010)

not noticably, but I get bloat bad off dbol. I was running at 25mg ED . . I'm thinking higher for big cycles, still gotta play around with it.


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## VictorZ06 (Jul 22, 2010)

ChocolateThunder said:


> It's a poor choice for anything.



I couldn't agree more and choc and I touched on this issue a few times in the past.  ALL the big boys I train with don't touch the stuff.  We only keep it on hand IN CASE of an extreme gyno breakout.  

Nolva can sometime offer the opposite effect that you are trying to achieve.  Remember when dbol only cycles were the best of ideas?  Well, we all know better many years later.  Same thing with nolva, it's been used in the past with great success (like Arnold and dbol), but there are dozens of studies and articles that go into great depth as to why Nolva should not be included in our arsenal.  The last thing we want is to do is inhibit HGH and IGF during PCT.  Hell no.

Nolva is significantly stronger than clomid, and it's too much of an overkill, regardless of dose.  I've also discovered that nolva does in fact have far more sides than clomid.  If you run a proper AI along side your cycle, all you will ever need for PCT is clomid.  I used nolva once before for PCT, and it fucked me up with a huge gyno rebound.  Never again.

Besides, for those of you who like 19nors like deca or tren....be weary that you should NOT use nolva, especially with these compounds.  That's playing with fire....and you'll get burned.  IMHO.



/V


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## VictorZ06 (Jul 22, 2010)

GymRat707 said:


> Scratch the nolva then. I'll be using adex on cycle to reduce bloat, but for PCT clomid will be enough?
> 
> For gyno I was going to run letro (never had gyno issues though)
> 
> Thanks.



Yes.  Clomid is all you will need if you properly run the adex/aromasin along side your cycle.  If you are not prone to gyno, I doubt that you will need letro.  The adex or aromasin should be enough....if you start pushing 2gr+ of AAS a week for example, yeah....letro might be needed.


/V


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## XYZ (Jul 22, 2010)

GymRat707 said:


> so for PCT the only SERM needed would be clomid then right? I've heard this a few times that nolva is garbage.


 

Correct along with aromasin.


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## XYZ (Jul 22, 2010)

Roaddkingg said:


> As you say chocolate it's suicidal to estro and from what I just read it kills esto up to 85% AND actually helps to raise natural test levels. The half life is only 27 hours so unlike adex it would have to be taken every day instead of EOD. Because it's so much more expensive that has been my main reason for useing adex. Do you think that 12.5mgs daily would be enough to be effective for a fairly light cycle? This way I could split tabs and save a bit that way. It is clearly the best choice but affordability may play into the equation. I will make some comparisons.


 

It really depends on what you're running.  What might be light to you might be heavy to someone else.  Post up your thoughts and then we can make a better decision.


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## XYZ (Jul 22, 2010)

GymRat707 said:


> I'm really curious and I hope someone can give me some feedback.
> 
> For a test-e/dbol cycle would clomid be enough for PCT? (of course pct assist, and other supps) but for SERM. I was going to run nolva/clomid.


 

Clomid OR nolva NOT both.  As previously stated, clomid and aromasin are your best bet.


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## XYZ (Jul 22, 2010)

unclem said:


> i like nolva, its a try and true drug without many sides and gets rid of gyno extremly fast. these new ais your going to find out down the road when enough people take them there unsafe as well. but like thunder did state they due lower gh and igf but i like it but iam like arimidex more and prami. but i dont use nolvadex only once in great while and can cause testicular cancer in males. it also has a effect on free test levels. and it ruins some of your gains when using test derivitives. only use it you have to for gyno.arimidex helps with my stomach bloat. and prami with sex problems which is rare.


 
Parmipexole is for 19nors which is used to control progestin, this is completely different than using an A/I.  An A/I is used for estrogen, big difference.  Using nolvadex while using a 19nor is going to enhance problems.


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## XYZ (Jul 22, 2010)

GymRat707 said:


> Scratch the nolva then. I'll be using adex on cycle to reduce bloat, but for PCT clomid will be enough?
> 
> For gyno I was going to run letro (never had gyno issues though)
> 
> Thanks.


 
Have you ever used letro?  It is potent stuff and if you dose it wrong.....bye bye libido and hello joints of pain.


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## XYZ (Jul 22, 2010)

VictorZ06 said:


> Yes. Clomid is all you will need if you properly run the adex/aromasin along side your cycle. If you are not prone to gyno, I doubt that you will need letro. The adex or aromasin should be enough....if you start pushing 2gr+ of AAS a week for example, yeah....letro might be needed.
> 
> 
> /V


 

+1 - What he said.


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## weldingman (Jul 22, 2010)

last 2 cycles I have taken adex or aromasin along with my cycle and clomid at the end. I love the feeling and results. No bitch tit and balls hang like a goat.


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## JCBourne (Jul 22, 2010)

ChocolateThunder said:


> Correct along with aromasin.



You suggest aromasin in PCT as well, how come?


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## scoops1515 (Jul 22, 2010)

good to know, thanks all.


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## Hoglander (Jul 22, 2010)

Well, this info is very helpful. It's not in the thread I would have expected but clears up my early question with aromasin seemingly to be the top for use during a cycle.


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## XYZ (Jul 23, 2010)

GymRat707 said:


> You suggest aromasin in PCT as well, how come?


 

When you stop using injectables that ammoritize (convert to estrogen) it takes time for the compound to leave your body (the 1/2 life).  Estrogen can still be formed and cause gyno.  Aromasin, seeks the estrogen and destroys it.  IT DOES NOT BLOCK IT (like nolva and adex), IT KILLS IT.

Too much estrogen can also lead to libido issues as well as joint pain and poor mood.


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## tnaugles (Jul 23, 2010)

wow this is great info i read a while ago that nolva was something to take through the whole cycle then also stay on for pct. great info guys


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## JCBourne (Jul 23, 2010)

ChocolateThunder said:


> When you stop using injectables that ammoritize (convert to estrogen) it takes time for the compound to leave your body (the 1/2 life).  Estrogen can still be formed and cause gyno.  Aromasin, seeks the estrogen and destroys it.  IT DOES NOT BLOCK IT (like nolva and adex), IT KILLS IT.
> 
> Too much estrogen can also lead to libido issues as well as joint pain and poor mood.



Gotcha, I'll be running adex on cycle for 4 weeks (longer if I have bloat) for the dbol.

I'll be doing clomid, and i'll run  aromasin in PCT as well. What do you recommend for a dose? I can get each dose as 25mg.


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## JCBourne (Jul 23, 2010)

Actually, instead of aromasin could I just run adex with the clomid since i'll already be using it for the 4 weeks of dbol?

My cycle is 

Test e 15 weeks @ 500mg a week
D bol 4 weeks @ 30-40mg a week


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## irish_2003 (Jul 23, 2010)

fortunately i no longer experience sides in my 30's like i did in my 20's and i use much higher doses of everything now.....i'm old school though in that you do need some estro and i do think it's bad and overkill to totally reduce it.....too many people are overly concerned with sides that i feel they actually may be robbing themselves of great gains in the meantime....but hey, to each his own...although there are better choices out there, i'll stick to my nolva for my bulkers and aromasin for my precontests.....K.I.S.S.


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## OTG85 (Jul 27, 2010)

Well I would still pick nolva over no pct.I ran it with many superdrol cycles and had no prob's.I ran clomid b4 and felt like I was shut down.


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## unclem (Jul 28, 2010)

ChocolateThunder said:


> Parmipexole is for 19nors which is used to control progestin, this is completely different than using an A/I. An A/I is used for estrogen, big difference. Using nolvadex while using a 19nor is going to enhance problems.


 
no thunder i understand the difference, i said it wrong or you misunderstood. i know prami is good for prolactin problems which in turn leads to sexual problems. and i know about the estrogen and ai but i didnt know that about the 19nors. so i learned something, good point, well taken. but i would take nolva if i got bad gyno, it worked for me once when i got sore nipples. wasnt insulting your intelligence just so u know brother.


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## XYZ (Jul 28, 2010)

No worries.  I never took it that way.


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## unclem (Jul 28, 2010)

ChocolateThunder said:


> No worries. I never took it that way.


 
 i love the sport so much my thoughts get away from me and fuck me all up. i got to get to the point more. thnx brother.


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## nd2bhge (Jul 28, 2010)

clomid at 50mg a aday for 4wks ? aromasin the whole 4 wks or only 2?
i ran adex switched to aroma 2wks prior to cycle ended and now taking aroma @10mg aday, does that sound right?


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## XYZ (Jul 30, 2010)

nd2bhge said:


> clomid at 50mg a aday for 4wks ? aromasin the whole 4 wks or only 2?
> i ran adex switched to aroma 2wks prior to cycle ended and now taking aroma @10mg aday, does that sound right?


 
Clomid - 4 weeks
Aromasin - 4 weeks


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## JCBourne (Jul 30, 2010)

Aromasin is pricey! But you got to pay to play.


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## XYZ (Aug 2, 2010)

GymRat707 said:


> *Aromasin is pricey*! But you got to pay to play.


 
So is gyno surgery.


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## rgprestige15 (Aug 2, 2010)

Anyone experience libido drop from nolva? I'm using it right now and I am wondering where my sex drive went!  Thinking of switching to clomid.


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## JCBourne (Aug 2, 2010)

ChocolateThunder said:


> So is gyno surgery.



Thats why I said you gotta pay to play. Better safe then sorry.


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## OTG85 (Aug 3, 2010)

I know a friend who got gyno pretty bad and he took letrozole and it totally reversed it good stuff.Can you  take letro for a stand alone pct


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## ZECH (Aug 3, 2010)

irish_2003 said:


> fortunately i no longer experience sides in my 30's like i did in my 20's and i use much higher doses of everything now.....i'm old school though in that you do need some estro and i do think it's bad and overkill to totally reduce it.....too many people are overly concerned with sides that i feel they actually may be robbing themselves of great gains in the meantime....but hey, to each his own...although there are better choices out there, i'll stick to my nolva for my bulkers and aromasin for my precontests.....K.I.S.S.



I agree with this......I remember yrs ago bathing in 4ad. I loved how the extra water retention made my joints feel great. And strength thru the roof!


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## unclem (Aug 3, 2010)

GymRat707 said:


> Actually, instead of aromasin could I just run adex with the clomid since i'll already be using it for the 4 weeks of dbol?
> 
> My cycle is
> 
> ...


 
 hey gymrat707, i was wondering do you just start the aromasin even before anything happens? sides wise? thnx


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## unclem (Aug 3, 2010)

irish_2003 said:


> fortunately i no longer experience sides in my 30's like i did in my 20's and i use much higher doses of everything now.....i'm old school though in that you do need some estro and i do think it's bad and overkill to totally reduce it.....too many people are overly concerned with sides that i feel they actually may be robbing themselves of great gains in the meantime....but hey, to each his own...although there are better choices out there, i'll stick to my nolva for my bulkers and aromasin for my precontests.....K.I.S.S.


 
 i agree also, old school to, as i only got sore nips once in the whole cycle span, i wont run nolva until i get sore nips, it seems to stop my progrees as far as gains go if i take even 10mg nolva with a cycle, now iam not speaking for no one but me. but on occassion, since phil told me to use arimidex for sides ill take it for stomach bloat and it works, but even then only when theres a fetus with abs in there.


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## MDR (Aug 9, 2010)

I think CT and Victor should combine their respective posts on this and put it in a sticky.  So many people seem to think it's a good idea to use Nolva.  Clomid is the way to go for so many reasons.  You both do a great job of articulating those reasons so they are easy for anyone to understand.  Great thread.


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## rgprestige15 (Aug 10, 2010)

I am pretty sure Nolva killed my libido because when I switched to clomid it came back in about 3 days. Still not 100% sure if it was the culprit, but im thinking nolva gave me the equivalent of deca dick. I also read a study that indicates 30% of male users experience a loss of libido from taking nolvadex.


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## Aries1 (Aug 11, 2010)

ChocolateThunder said:


> When you stop using injectables that ammoritize (convert to estrogen) it takes time for the compound to leave your body (the 1/2 life). Estrogen can still be formed and cause gyno. _*Aromasin, seeks the estrogen and destroys it*_. IT DOES NOT BLOCK IT (like nolva and adex), IT KILLS IT.
> 
> Too much estrogen can also lead to libido issues as well as joint pain and poor mood.


Aromasin acts as a substrate to the aromatase enzyme. When it binds to the enzyme it does so permanently so the estrogen conversion never happens at all. Another reason that I consider Aromasin to be the superior AI while on cycle.


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## Aries1 (Aug 11, 2010)

VictorZ06 said:


> I couldn't agree more and choc and I touched on this issue a few times in the past. ALL the big boys I train with don't touch the stuff. We only keep it on hand IN CASE of an extreme gyno breakout.
> 
> Nolva can sometime offer the opposite effect that you are trying to achieve. Remember when dbol only cycles were the best of ideas? Well, we all know better many years later. Same thing with nolva, it's been used in the past with great success (like Arnold and dbol), but there are dozens of studies and articles that go into great depth as to why Nolva should not be included in our arsenal. _*The last thing we want is to do is inhibit HGH and IGF during PCT*_. Hell no.
> 
> ...


Absolutely correct. Although the only studies that I can find on igf and gh serum levels were done on stageI-II breast cancer patients. Even still, I completely agree that clomid is the better choice.


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## cheappinz (Aug 12, 2010)

I'm positive there are a lot of guys out there that don't even know the actual benefit of different chems...they get a few easy, basic ones confused.  What's the big problem with nolva?  Is it a shit compound because the guy posting is selling a new replacement for it, lol..  I know nothing of the peptides because I wouldn't be interested in doing that to myself, but to each their own. Nolva's not even strong enough to be a concern of the fda...I am almost positive its one of the few rcs they don't care about.  
So if nolva's bad, come out and tell us what's the new replacement for it.....I'd like to know.


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## JCBourne (Aug 12, 2010)

I'm wanting to know which would be best for in case gyno pops up. Would nolva be good to have on hand? I've never had gyno issues, but better safe then sorry.


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## unclem (Aug 13, 2010)

cheappinz said:


> I'm positive there are a lot of guys out there that don't even know the actual benefit of different chems...they get a few easy, basic ones confused. What's the big problem with nolva? Is it a shit compound because the guy posting is selling a new replacement for it, lol.. I know nothing of the peptides because I wouldn't be interested in doing that to myself, but to each their own. Nolva's not even strong enough to be a concern of the fda...I am almost positive its one of the few rcs they don't care about.
> So if nolva's bad, come out and tell us what's the new replacement for it.....I'd like to know.


 
 i dont think nolvas bad. just a few guys. but one thing the fda has there ass in everything, except when u call them to ask about a recall they cut u short, they told me " everythings on recall nowadays", i was asking about a food product. but god forbid if one person dies from a steroid they go in guns blazing. look wat they did to bb.com, they harrased the fuck out of them, because they want to control everything. assholes.


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