# Guns



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 28, 2007)

in light of recent discussions,

im looking into getting a pistol,

glock 19 specifically, for self defense, entertainment purposes

federal hydra shock rounds, but not for target/entertainment shooting.

any opinions? kinda want to talk about guns right now

btw, moving to minnesota. so I believe I can own a handgun, just dont have a job that would allow me to have a concealed weapons permit, though I might look into a security officer job a couple nights a week.


----------



## Hoglander (Aug 28, 2007)

So you are 18 and want a gun. First, go off and get one. Get it out of your system and bust up some bottles. Then put it aside. Do not carry a handgun unless you're on the job. If you carry every time you go out... the gun owns you and you are a royal pussy.


----------



## Vieope (Aug 28, 2007)

_Is it expensive?_


----------



## KelJu (Aug 28, 2007)

You have to be 21 to get a pistol permit in Alabama, but it may be different elsewhere.


----------



## ALBOB (Aug 28, 2007)

Hoglander said:


> So you are 18 and want a gun. First, go off and get one. Get it out of your system and bust up some bottles. Then put it aside. Do not carry a handgun unless you're on the job. If you carry every time you go out... the gun owns you and you are a royal pussy.




Our first contestant for Stupidest Post of the Day.  

Handguns are expensive.  The good ones anyway.  Treat them as the investment they are, not only monetarily but, you're investing in something that may very well save your life.  Don't scrimp on pennies when it comes to life saving tools.  Do some research, not just books and magazines but, go to your local gun range and rent different models that interest you.  First and foremost, don't buy a particular gun just because it's fashionable.  Glocks are very fine weapons, but they're also very "Hollywood".  If you like the feel of a Glock and you can shoot it well then, by all means, buy it.  But try other brands and models first.  You may find a weapon that you like even more.  I have never held a Glock that feels comfortable to me.  I'm a .45 ACP 1911 person myself.  I like the way they feel in my hand and I can hit what I'm aiming at every time.  Last but certainly not least, caliber selection is every bit as important as weapon selection.  Again, don't but a certain caliber just because that's what everybody on T.V. is shooting.  Yeah, 9mm is very popular, but it's by no means the best self-defense caliber.  The documented best self-defense handgun caliber is the .357 Magnum, 125 grain hollow-point.  But the .357 is a revolver caliber so it isn't very popular.  So what?  When my life is on the line I want effectiveness, not popularity.  The .45 ACP is a very close second.   You've got some good resources here at IM.  If you have any questions at all, fire off a few PM's.  (That way you won't have to listen to BS from the peanut gallery.)


----------



## iMan323 (Aug 28, 2007)

1.  You don't fucking need a hand gun.  
2.  If you're going to buy one, spend more on a quality piece.
3.  1911 is absolutely badass
4.  If you really want to shoot guns, there's always the Army and the Marines.  Fuck, they'll even pay for your ammo!!!


----------



## BoneCrusher (Aug 28, 2007)

ALBOB said:


> Our first contestant for Stupidest Post of the Day.
> 
> Handguns are expensive.  The good ones anyway.  Treat them as the investment they are, not only monetarily but, you're investing in something that may very well save your life.  Don't scrimp on pennies when it comes to life saving tools.  Do some research, not just books and magazines but, go to your local gun range and rent different models that interest you.  First and foremost, don't buy a particular gun just because it's fashionable.  Glocks are very fine weapons, but they're also very "Hollywood".  If you like the feel of a Glock and you can shoot it well then, by all means, buy it.  But try other brands and models first.  You may find a weapon that you like even more.  I have never held a Glock that feels comfortable to me.  I'm a .45 ACP 1911 person myself.  I like the way they feel in my hand and I can hit what I'm aiming at every time.  Last but certainly not least, caliber selection is every bit as important as weapon selection.  Again, don't but a certain caliber just because that's what everybody on T.V. is shooting.  Yeah, 9mm is very popular, but it's by no means the best self-defense caliber.  The documented best self-defense handgun caliber is the .357 Magnum, 125 grain hollow-point.  But the .357 is a revolver caliber so it isn't very popular.  So what?  When my life is on the line I want effectiveness, not popularity.  The .45 ACP is a very close second.   You've got some good resources here at IM.  If you have any questions at all, fire off a few PM's.  (That way you won't have to listen to BS from the peanut gallery.)


The only thing I'd add to a an already great post is that while you are at that firing range take a handgun safety course.   The class is cheap and you will even get some training on how to fire your weapon of choice accurately.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 28, 2007)

FishOrCutBait said:


> in light of recent discussions,
> 
> im looking into getting a pistol,
> 
> ...



Then I would go to the many good gun oriented forums and look at the threads regarding being new to guns, etc. Lots of choices out there.



FishOrCutBait said:


> btw, moving to minnesota. so I believe I can own a handgun, just dont have a job that would allow me to have a concealed weapons permit, though I might look into a security officer job a couple nights a week.



For MN laws, see Handgunlaw.us


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 28, 2007)

ALBOB said:


> Our first contestant for Stupidest Post of the Day.



It's a winner!  



ALBOB said:


> I'm a .45 ACP 1911 person myself.  )



All real shooters are.... (ducking from the glock lovers!)


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

Is it me or is it just because I live in NYC, you don't normally see people with guns with the exception of the Police or the bad guys.
 I think I may have only come across 2 or 3  people in my lifetime who carry guns legally.
One was a brinks guard but he leaves it at home.


----------



## RasPlasch (Aug 28, 2007)

FishOrCutBait said:


> in light of recent discussions,
> 
> im looking into getting a pistol,
> 
> ...





Where in MN are you thinking about moving to?


----------



## iMan323 (Aug 28, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> Is it me or is it just because I live in NYC, you don't normally see people with guns with the exception of the Police or the bad guys.
> I think I may have only come across 2 or 3  people in my lifetime who carry guns legally.
> One was a brinks guard but he leaves it at home.



It's because you live in NYC, and trust me, you aren't missing much.


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

why do you want a glock? they are pretty shitty. if you want a good gun you cant go wrong with a .44 or a 357. berettas are pretty nice to.


----------



## ALBOB (Aug 28, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> 1.  You don't fucking need a hand gun.



Normally I'd characterize this as typical liberal elitism, but I'm going to exercise some restraint for a change and ask a question.  How do you, who don't know anything about this person's situation, feel qualified to tell him what he does or doesn't need?


----------



## ALBOB (Aug 28, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> The only thing I'd add to a an already great post is that while you are at that firing range take a handgun safety course.   The class is cheap and you will even get some training on how to fire your weapon of choice accurately.



Excellent point.


----------



## ALBOB (Aug 28, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> Is it me or is it just because I live in NYC, you don't normally see people with guns with the exception of the Police or the bad guys.
> I think I may have only come across 2 or 3  people in my lifetime who carry guns legally.
> One was a brinks guard but he leaves it at home.



Name one city in the country where you DO see everybody walking around with six-shooters on their hips.  Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they're not there.


----------



## Twigz (Aug 28, 2007)

and what exactly makes them shitty??


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 28, 2007)

ALBOB said:


> Name one city in the country where you DO see everybody walking around with six-shooters on their hips.  Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they're not there.



Though I understand your point, and it's a correct one, he's right: only bad guys and police have guns in NYC....

Feel safer now?


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 28, 2007)

ALBOB said:


> Excellent point.



Many, if not most, states require a basic course to get a CCW now anyway.


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> It's because you live in NYC, and trust me, you aren't missing much.


Am I right, you do notice the same don't you?


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

ALBOB said:


> Name one city in the country where you DO see everybody walking around with six-shooters on their hips. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they're not there.


I come across *a lot* of people and trust me when I say it, not too many New Yorkers (from the city) carry concealed weapons. Maybe in Long Island but not in NYC.

You can't buy a hand gun legally in NYC.
If I sound stupid you just have to excuse me but it's not something you see all the time.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 28, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> It's because you live in NYC,



True enough



iMan323 said:


> and trust me, you aren't missing much.



Yes, he???s only missing a Constitutional Right, which is no big deal???

Remember, the Brady Bunch gives NY a solid B+ on its restrictive guns laws. It gives D and F's for all those states where your Const Right is supported, such as NH or VT. Me, I live in a state that gets  an A- from the Brady Bunch!

So, if you want to find the safest place to live, pick a state that gets the WORST grade by the Brady Bunch:

Brady Bunch Grade by state:

New York . . . . . . B+ 
Vermont . . . . . . . D- 
New Hampshire . . D- 
Maine . . . . . . . . . D- 
Massachusetts . . . A- 
Connecticut . . . . . A- 
Rhode Island . . . . B- 


2005 FBI UCR data of crime/homicide rates per 100,000 people:

Region . . . Violent Crime, Homicide Rates
USA National . . 569.2 , 5.6
New York . . . . 445.8 , 4.5
Vermont . . . . . 119.7 , 1.3
New Hampshire 132.0 , 1.4
Maine . . . . . . . 112.2 , 1.4
Massachusetts . 456.9 , 2.7
Connecticut . . . 274.5 , 2.9
Rhode Island . . 251.2 , 3.2


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

WillBrink said:


> Though I understand your point, and it's a correct one, he's right: only bad guys and police have guns in NYC....
> 
> Feel safer now?


So you must have been to NYC, see my point? 
It's not something I can go window shopping to buy.
They don't even sell BB guns here in NYC, I had to go to Long Island to buy one....which Lee found and threw it away.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 28, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> So you must have been to NYC,



I grew up in NYC, Brooklyn to be specific. I did know plenty of kids with guns when I grew up there, none of them legal, which only told me what I know know: gun laws only stop honest people from getting guns.



min0 lee said:


> see my point?



There's a point in there? You say you don't see a lot of legal guns. Not sure what point there is to take from that.



min0 lee said:


> It's not something I can go window shopping to buy.



Yes I know, that's good old NYC for ya. Though I bet there is a sports store some place that has some guns in it some place in NYC, it's not common.



min0 lee said:


> They don't even sell BB guns here in NYC, I had to go to Long Island to buy one....which Lee found and threw it away.



Bummer!


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

WillBrink said:


> There's a point in there? You say you don't see a lot of legal guns. Not sure what point there is to take from that.


Well there was really none, just saying that it's way easier for a criminal to get a gun.

Where in Brooklyn were you from?


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

I can get an Uzi real easy.....but it's *HOT*.


----------



## ALBOB (Aug 28, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> I come across *a lot* of people and trust me when I say it, not too many New Yorkers (from the city) carry concealed weapons. Maybe in Long Island but not in NYC.
> 
> You can't buy a hand gun legally in NYC.
> If I sound stupid you just have to excuse me but it's not something you see all the time.




If I had to bet money I'd say those "LOT" of people are honest people.  That's just it, NYC has about the most restrictive gun laws in the country, but only honest people obey laws.  So, when you say "not too many New Yorkers carry concealed weapons", you're only talking about the honest ones that you come in contact with.


----------



## iMan323 (Aug 28, 2007)

ALBOB said:


> Normally I'd characterize this as typical liberal elitism, but I'm going to exercise some restraint for a change and ask a question.  How do you, who don't know anything about this person's situation, feel qualified to tell him what he does or doesn't need?



Because nobody in this country _needs_ a gun.  Please tell me of a problem that an 18 year old with a hand gun can solve.  I'm not a liberal, btw.


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

ALBOB said:


> If I had to bet money I'd say those "LOT" of people are honest people. That's just it, NYC has about the most restrictive gun laws in the country, but only honest people obey laws. So, when you say "not too many New Yorkers carry concealed weapons", you're only talking about the honest ones that you come in contact with.


I can count the honest ones on one hand, the dishonest ones seem to always carry more than one gun.....and I don't have enough digits to count how many criminals have one.


----------



## iMan323 (Aug 28, 2007)

ALBOB said:


> If I had to bet money I'd say those "LOT" of people are honest people.  That's just it, NYC has about the most restrictive gun laws in the country, but only honest people obey laws.  So, when you say "not too many New Yorkers carry concealed weapons", you're only talking about the honest ones that you come in contact with.



Honestly, the last thing this city needs is more Bernard Goetz'-es playing hero.  If you want to be a hero, join the NYPD.  Seriously, the mindset that violence is a solution belongs in the military.  I'm tired of this mindset, that's why I'm no longer in the military.  But, I laugh at the tough guys who buy firearms just because they need to "protect themselves"...please..be fuking serious.  You'll just get your stupid ass killed, or worse you will hurt somebody else with your lack of training and overconfidence.


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> Because nobody in this country _needs_ a gun. Please tell me of a problem that an 18 year old with a hand gun can solve. I'm not a liberal, btw.


I don't even trust an 18 year old with a loaded penis (We have young teenage girls) let alone a loaded gun.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> why do you want a glock? they are pretty shitty. if you want a good gun you cant go wrong with a .44 or a 357. berettas are pretty nice to.



any chance you might want to differentiate between calibers and manufactures in your post?  there is a reason glocks have the reputation they do, it's because they are an excellent and reliable gun.  the only knock one could ever have on a  glock is that they are not aesthetically pleasing.


----------



## ALBOB (Aug 28, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> I'm not a liberal, btw.





Riiiiiiight.  You keep telling yourself that.


----------



## BoneCrusher (Aug 28, 2007)

ALBOB said:


> If I had to bet money I'd say those "LOT" of people are honest people.  That's just it, NYC has about the most restrictive gun laws in the country, but only honest people obey laws.  So, when you say "not too many New Yorkers carry concealed weapons", you're only talking about the honest ones that you come in contact with.


Add that most people don't have a sign saying "conceal & carry permit holder.  My weapon of choice is a .380 and I carry it in my belly pac".

No-one has a clue when I carry or when I don't.  I don't see how that would change in NYC.


----------



## ALBOB (Aug 28, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> I can count the honest ones on one hand, the dishonest ones seem to always carry more than one gun.....and I don't have enough digits to count how many criminals have one.



Actually my previous post was bogus because I misunderstood your original question.  You observation was correct.  Because NYC's gun laws are so restrictive, the only people you'll see with guns are the police and the criminals.  Honest people obey laws.  But then again, you don't have to worry about the honest people, do you?


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> Add that most people don't have a sign saying "conceal & carry permit holder.  My weapon of choice is a .380 and I carry it in my belly pac".
> 
> No-one has a clue when I carry or when I don't.  I don't see how that would change in NYC.



except for the fact that the only people who still wear belly packs are guys carrying a gun.  its time to go back to a holster.


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> Add that most people don't have a sign saying "conceal & carry permit holder. My weapon of choice is a .380 and I carry it in my belly pac".
> 
> No-one has a clue when I carry or when I don't. I don't see how that would change in NYC.


You live in Texas, NYC is way different.
Trust me.


----------



## iMan323 (Aug 28, 2007)

ALBOB said:


> Riiiiiiight.  You keep telling yourself that.



If you want to call me a liberal, go ahead, I'm happy that my value system is incampatible with yours.  I'm delighted to have nothing in common with boneheads.


----------



## DOMS (Aug 28, 2007)

I'm thinking about buying a S&W 4506-1.  Any thoughts?


----------



## BoneCrusher (Aug 28, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> If you want to call me a liberal, go ahead, I'm happy that my value system is incampatible with yours.  I'm delighted to have nothing in common with boneheads.


You are a bonehead at times iman.


----------



## BoneCrusher (Aug 28, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> You live in Texas, NYC is way different.
> Trust me.


I do trust you.  How is it any different here in Texas than there in NYC?


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> any chance you might want to differentiate between calibers and manufactures in your post?  there is a reason glocks have the reputation they do, it's because they are an excellent and reliable gun.  the only knock one could ever have on a  glock is that they are not aesthetically pleasing.



well if your going to get a glock i recomend the 17  because it bigger and more powerful the 19 is more for concealed carry but its not neccesary if hes using to for self defense. also there are plenty of guns much better.


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> I do trust you. How is it any different here in Texas than there in NYC?


Well for starters we don't have cowboys.


----------



## maniclion (Aug 28, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> Because nobody in this country _needs_ a gun.  Please tell me of a problem that an 18 year old with a hand gun can solve.  I'm not a liberal, btw.


Hiking trip, gets lost needs food and protection....


----------



## BoneCrusher (Aug 28, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> Well for starters we don't have cowboys.


Yeah you do ...


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

LOL. Shhhhh...


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> well if your going to get a glock i recomend the 17  because it bigger and more powerful the 19 is more for concealed carry but its not neccesary if hes using to for self defense. also there are plenty of guns much better.



im having a difficult time of understanding your logic of bigger and more powerful when they are the same caliber.  if he does have the stated intention of getting his concealed carry permit then i would see no reason he would not wish to go with the more compact g19 model.  personally i prefer a larger caliber, but thats just me. (i also think this issue has been well covered on other threads)


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 28, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> Well there was really none, just saying that it's way easier for a criminal to get a gun.



Bingo. 



min0 lee said:


> Where in Brooklyn were you from?



Cobble Hill.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 28, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> I don't even trust an 18 year old with a loaded penis (We have young teenage girls) let alone a loaded gun.



One is his weapon and one is his gun. One is for killing and one is for fun...stolen from the Marines I believe.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 28, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> Well for starters we don't have cowboys.



Sure you do. West Village on a Sat night


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 28, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> I do trust you.  How is it any different here in Texas than there in NYC?




He has no experience with CCW  types, so assumes there must be something "different" about them like a blinking sign on their head that says "I carry a gun legally" or perhaps they look strange like a bad guy from the movies. Point being, he could be sitting next to a person on the train who is CCW and would never know it. However, he's still correct in that no one but connected types and celebs (Howard Stern has a CCW BTW) can get a CCW in NYC. So, he probably really has no experience either real or imagined and may think if he went to one of those places where a higher % of people do carry, he might see those blinking signs....


----------



## Hoglander (Aug 28, 2007)

It's funny/sad the people that always carry a gun are so paranoid. It's like.. when you start you think you have to have it all the time or you'll die.  I know city cops that way and agents that way. I know civilians that way. Carrying a gun all day can mess with your head. You don't always need to carry unless you are an unstable royal pussy.  

I'm GOING FOR THE WIN!!!!


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 28, 2007)

Hoglander said:


> It's funny/sad the people that always carry a gun are so paranoid. It's like.. when you start you think you have to have it all the time or you'll die.  I know city cops that way and agents that way. I know civilians that way. Carrying a gun all day can mess with your head. You don't always need to carry unless you are an unstable royal pussy.
> 
> I'm GOING FOR THE WIN!!!!



Oh come on now, you can do a better job of trolling than that!


----------



## Hoglander (Aug 28, 2007)

I knew you would agree Will. So I guess I don't get your vote. I think AL is going to win anyhow.


----------



## ALBOB (Aug 28, 2007)

Hoglander said:


> It's funny/sad the people that always carry a gun are so paranoid. It's like.. when you start you think you have to have it all the time or you'll die.  I know city cops that way and agents that way. I know civilians that way. Carrying a gun all day can mess with your head. You don't always need to carry unless you are an unstable royal pussy.
> 
> I'm GOING FOR THE WIN!!!!



Wait a minute here, am I understanding you correctly?  Are you saying that the physical act of carrying a gun has the mental effect of making you paranoid?  I'd at least have some sort of argument if you said "You have to be paranoid to carry a gun."  But this just leaves me speechless.  And here all along I thought guns only killed people.


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> im having a difficult time of understanding your logic of bigger and more powerful when they are the same caliber.  if he does have the stated intention of getting his concealed carry permit then i would see no reason he would not wish to go with the more compact g19 model.  personally i prefer a larger caliber, but thats just me. (i also think this issue has been well covered on other threads)



have u ever even used a gun?


----------



## Hoglander (Aug 28, 2007)

ALBOB said:


> Wait a minute here, am I understanding you correctly?  Are you saying that the physical act of carrying a gun has the mental effect of making you paranoid?  I'd at least have some sort of argument if you said "You have to be paranoid to carry a gun."  But this just leaves me speechless.  And here all along I thought guns only killed people.



LOL No exactly. So save the chicken or the egg argument.

Relax relax now take a deep breath, let it out slowly and listen close. 

I get the very clear impression that a certain AL person needs his gun as a coping mechanism. There are kids here.  I don't want to see them living life like that.  

I have nothing more to say on the matter.


----------



## ALBOB (Aug 28, 2007)

Hoglander said:


> I get the very clear impression that a certain AL person needs his gun as a coping mechanism. There are kids here.  I don't want to see them living life like that.




Care to give the details that led you to that conclusion?  What exactly is my background?  What exactly are my current conditions/situation?  What exactly is my training?  I get the very clear impression you don't have a clue what you're talking about, but are trying to draw conclusions anyway.  Tsk, tsk; everybody knows what happens when you make assumptions.


----------



## clemson357 (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> have u ever even used a gun?



Sorry to say, but he is correct.  The glock 17 and the glock 19 are nearly identical.  They fire the same bullet, thus neither is more powerful than the other.

As to the original poster, I think a Glock 19 is nearly the perfect first handgun.  Most find that the mid-size glocks have the best balance and feel.  9mm is cheap.  Moreover, the Glock can handle +p+ ammo, meaning that you can shoot for very cheap when you want to and you can load hot ammo in it and get ballistics similar to .40 or .357 sig.  Glocks are easy to field strip and clean, and they last forever.  

There once was a firearms expert who wrote for a magazine when Glocks first came out.  He was determined to prove that the rumors on their reliability wasn't true.  He tried to make one break, and he couldn't.  He fired 10,000 rounds without cleaning.  He now has over 300,000 rounds through it.   That the rough equivalent of putting 1 million miles on a car.


----------



## KelJu (Aug 28, 2007)

WillBrink said:


> It's a winner!
> 
> 
> 
> All real shooters are.... (ducking from the glock lovers!)



My next gun to add to my collection will be the Springfield 1911 GI edition. I rented one at the range/gunshop that I go to. That pistol rocks so fucking hard.


----------



## KelJu (Aug 28, 2007)

clemson357 said:


> Sorry to say, but he is correct.  The glock 17 and the glock 19 are nearly identical.  They fire the same bullet, thus neither is more powerful than the other.
> 
> As to the original poster, I think a Glock 19 is nearly the perfect first handgun.  Most find that the mid-size glocks have the best balance and feel.  9mm is cheap.  Moreover, the Glock can handle +p+ ammo, meaning that you can shoot for very cheap when you want to and you can load hot ammo in it and get ballistics similar to .40 or .357 sig.  Glocks are easy to field strip and clean, and they last forever.
> 
> There once was a firearms expert who wrote for a magazine when Glocks first came out.  He was determined to prove that the rumors on their reliability wasn't true.  He tried to make one break, and he couldn't.  He fired 10,000 rounds without cleaning.  He now has over 300,000 rounds through it.   That the rough equivalent of putting 1 million miles on a car.





A coast guard person told me that they have to use glocks because they hold up against salt water damage better than any other pistol. I know much of a glock is hard plastic, but don't quote me on the coast guard thing, because I haven't checked on it to make sure it was true.


----------



## ZECH (Aug 28, 2007)

Hate I caught this late........Glocks are great guns. I carry a .40 with ported barrell and laser sight. But honestly, for someone who has no experience with handguns, it would not be my first choice for them. It has no manual safety. I think this is a must for a new gun carrier. Someone mentioned the 4506.........great model but I would never buy a S&W now after they sold out during the Clinton assault weapon ban. 
Albob, the SIG .357 is a sweet gun. The grip is too short though.
Also for those of you that don't necessarily agree with guns, try debating without calling names or I will delete those posts.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 28, 2007)

KelJu said:


> My next gun to add to my collection will be the Springfield 1911 GI edition. I rented one at the range/gunshop that I go to. That pistol rocks so fucking hard.



There's nothing like a good 1911.


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

dg806 said:


> Also for those of you that don't necessarily agree with guns, try debating without calling names or I will delete those posts.


You sure love your guns.


----------



## ZECH (Aug 28, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> You sure love your guns.



oh hush...........I wasn't talking to you


----------



## Hoglander (Aug 28, 2007)

Uggg 

I was trying to stay away form this end of it but I couldn't  because no one has talked about conceal ability,  power, weight, comfort, accuracy, reliability and capacity as a package.    

Kids go to sleep now.

Para-Ordnance P12-45 alloy is the best I've ever owned or fired, IMHO.

OK now I can get back to mowing the lawn.


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

dg806 said:


> oh hush...........I wasn't talking to you


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

clemson357 said:


> Sorry to say, but he is correct.  The glock 17 and the glock 19 are nearly identical.  They fire the same bullet, thus neither is more powerful than the other.
> 
> As to the original poster, I think a Glock 19 is nearly the perfect first handgun.  Most find that the mid-size glocks have the best balance and feel.  9mm is cheap.  Moreover, the Glock can handle +p+ ammo, meaning that you can shoot for very cheap when you want to and you can load hot ammo in it and get ballistics similar to .40 or .357 sig.  Glocks are easy to field strip and clean, and they last forever.
> 
> There once was a firearms expert who wrote for a magazine when Glocks first came out.  He was determined to prove that the rumors on their reliability wasn't true.  He tried to make one break, and he couldn't.  He fired 10,000 rounds without cleaning.  He now has over 300,000 rounds through it.   That the rough equivalent of putting 1 million miles on a car.



i dont like the glocks grip what so ever and its not as powerful as i like. i mean im gonna buy one but there are much better guns.


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> You sure love your guns.



yo i live in NYC 2 its pretty easy to get a gun theres a store on every corner and you can get them hot real ez.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> have u ever even used a gun?



i personally own 3. my father many more. carrying a berretta px4 storm in  .40 cal.  ive been shooting for over 20 years, which would mean ive been shooting longer than you have been alive.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

clemson357 said:


> Sorry to say, but he is correct.  The glock 17 and the glock 19 are nearly identical.  They fire the same bullet, thus neither is more powerful than the other.
> 
> As to the original poster, I think a Glock 19 is nearly the perfect first handgun.  Most find that the mid-size glocks have the best balance and feel.  9mm is cheap.  Moreover, the Glock can handle +p+ ammo, meaning that you can shoot for very cheap when you want to and you can load hot ammo in it and get ballistics similar to .40 or .357 sig.  Glocks are easy to field strip and clean, and they last forever.
> 
> There once was a firearms expert who wrote for a magazine when Glocks first came out.  He was determined to prove that the rumors on their reliability wasn't true.  He tried to make one break, and he couldn't.  He fired 10,000 rounds without cleaning.  He now has over 300,000 rounds through it.   That the rough equivalent of putting 1 million miles on a car.



thank you. i needed the back up or i may have stepped on the soap box a little too long and loud


----------



## ALBOB2 (Aug 28, 2007)

Hoglander said:


> Para-Ordnance P12-45 alloy is the best I've ever owned or fired, IMHO.



Okay, I think I'm about to have a brain hemmorage.  That's the EXACT gun I've been carrying for over a decade.  I'm sooooooo confused.


----------



## ALBOB (Aug 28, 2007)

ALBOB2 said:


> Okay, I think I'm about to have a brain hemmorage.  That's the EXACT gun I've been carrying for over a decade.  I'm sooooooo confused.




Yeah, me too.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> i dont like the glocks grip what so ever and its not as powerful as i like. i mean im gonna buy one but there are much better guns.



what are you saying here? the 9mm cal is not powerful enough for you? or you think the design of the glock is not powerful?  you realize they make glocks in other calibers, dont you?  why purchase a gun, if you dont like the feel of the grip? feel helps with accuracy.


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

bio. im saying the grip sux and the gun is not very powerful if you want it for self defense get a 44 mag or a 357. or if he reay wants a good gun he should get a semi or fully auto gun


----------



## ZECH (Aug 28, 2007)

ALBOB said:


> Yeah, me too.



What's new?


----------



## ZECH (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> bio. im saying the grip sux and the gun is not very powerful if you want it for self defense get a 44 mag or a 357. or if he reay wants a good gun he should get a semi or fully auto gun



Please don't sprout any more ignorance................sheesh!


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

if you think that a glock is such a good gun then you are obviously very ignorant.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> bio. im saying the grip sux and the gun is not very powerful if you want it for self defense get a 44 mag or a 357. or if he reay wants a good gun he should get a semi or fully auto gun



most .357 and .44 cal guns come in revolvers. the glock is a semi auto.  just because a gun can go fully auto (something illegal and ridiculous for self defense) doesnt make it a good gun. your posts are really killing me. nothing you have said so far has made any sense.  is the glock 21 powerful enough?


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

whats wrong with a revolver? u clearly dont realize hes from Bronx. hes gunna need something better than a glock.


----------



## ZECH (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> if you think that a glock is such a good gun then you are obviously very ignorant.



Define good gun.


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

one that is good for self defense.


----------



## ZECH (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> one that is good for self defense.



I use a glock model 22 everytime I work to defend myself. Do you think that doesn't count as a good gun?


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

what do you work as? im a glock is ok. its reliable. bt other gun are much better


----------



## clemson357 (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> bio. im saying the grip sux and the gun is not very powerful if you want it for self defense get a 44 mag or a 357. or if he reay wants a good gun he should get a semi or fully auto gun



Lots of people don't like the Glock grip.  The angle of the grip is different than a 1911, which throws a lot of people off.  Also, the third generation has finger groves which some people don't like.  

However, Glocks do come in stronger calibers.  10mm or .357 sig are both more than adequate, bordering on overkill.


----------



## ZECH (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> what do you work as? im a glock is ok. its reliable. bt other gun are much better



I work part time as a police officer.
Better as in how? More acurate? Cost more?


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

more powerful, accurtate, etc.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> whats wrong with a revolver? u clearly dont realize hes from Bronx. hes gunna need something better than a glock.



other than the fact YOU defined a really good gun as one that is a simi or fully auto nothing is wrong with a revolver.   you now further define a good gun as one that is good for self defense. do you realize over 50 countries issue glocks for military or police side arms? i personally chose a different gun so i cant believe im the one defending glock, yet ive yet to see any of your comments against glock show any knowlege or substance with reference to self defense.

so tell me. if you are looking for a good self defense handgun, what criteria would you use in making your decision?  caliber? magazine capacity?  standard, sub-compact, compact? action? reliability? ease of use?  tell me. other than a glock please suggest a handgun that you consider acceptable for self-defense.


----------



## ZECH (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> more powerful, accurtate, etc.



Glock makes any caliber you want from .380 to 45.  A .45  is all you would ever need for personal protection. Like I said I carry a .40 and would carry nothing else. I qualify in combat courses several times a year and shoot perfect every time. What more would you expect from a handgun? You can buy prettier guns with more shine, but that doesn't make them better. You obviously have no experience with guns and know little about them.


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

i suggest a 44 mag, 357 mag, g32 compact, tech 9, AR-15, UZI, i can go on and on.


----------



## ZECH (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> i suggest a 44 mag, 357 mag, g32 compact, tech 9, AR-15, UZI, i can go on and on.



You been watching too much tv.


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

All of your idiotic post will be deleted. So post something that makes sense.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

clemson357 said:


> Lots of people don't like the Glock grip.  The angle of the grip is different than a 1911, which throws a lot of people off.  Also, the third generation has finger groves which some people don't like.
> 
> However, Glocks do come in stronger calibers.  10mm or .357 sig are both more than adequate, bordering on overkill.



these are reasons i can get behind. if you dont like the feel of the grip that is a legit reason behind looking else were for a gun, i personally like the grooves on the finger guard.  
other cal to mention would be the .45 acp and the .40


----------



## Hoglander (Aug 28, 2007)

Danny, 

I'm sure you know what a wigga is. So does everyone else. So....... post a normal pic. Stop the gangsta crap and get real. If you want to be real.  It's your choice of course.


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

wat wron wit my pic? its zab judah?


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> i suggest a 44 mag, 357 mag, g32 compact, tech 9, AR-15, UZI, i can go on and on.



.44 mag and .357 are calibers not guns.  ar-15 is not a hand gun and the tech 9 and uzi would never be described as more accurate than a glock. please try again


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

alright when people say a 44 mag or a 357 i no it not a gun but u no wht i mean. tech 9 and uzi u dont need to be accurate with.


----------



## ZECH (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> tech 9 and uzi u dont need to be accurate with.



Another winning post


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> alright when people say a 44 mag or a 357 i no it not a gun but u no wht i mean. tech 9 and uzi u dont need to be accurate with.



because killing those your not aiming at is just as effective? where is DOMS?


----------



## ZECH (Aug 28, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> where is DOMS?



He's fallen and can't get up!


----------



## Hoglander (Aug 28, 2007)

He's 16 and has no identity. So lets make sure he gets the right gun??


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> because killing those your not aiming at is just as effective? where is DOMS?



who else could he shoot in his own house?


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

Hoglander said:


> He's 16 and has no identity. So lets make sure he gets the right gun??



wtf does that mean?


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> yo i live in NYC 2 its pretty easy to get a gun theres a store on every corner and you can get them hot real ez.


Every corner store? Yep, OK.
I would never purchase a used gun let alone a hot gun, a hot gun could have been responsible for a kid, mother or cops life. I pass.

Your talking to men who are passionate about their guns, so if your going to argue with them you better come prepared.


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

im prepared. dont worry. they arent very passinate because they no very little


----------



## danzik17 (Aug 28, 2007)

Malibu's Most Wanted

Seems to fit nicely.


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

Your talking to a cop.
Your talking to a veteran who personnally met Smith and Wesson.
Your talking to a chemist who's been into guns for twenty years.

Your only 16, I have undergarments older than you.


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

fuck u pusy


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

they may now ab0ut guns but they dont no about uing them for self defense.


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

This is his little brother right? 
I'll ignore that, I understand your a kid.

Good thing I can take a curse, others take it personal but  not me.


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> they may now ab0ut guns but they dont no about uing them for self defense.


And how would you know?


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> fuck u pusy



dude. not bright. mino is being as respectfull as possible in trying to give you advice and this is what you reply?  this is a great place for you to learn about a wide range of topics. dont screw it up with pubescent ego


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

nah this is me not the brother.


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

i wasnt dissing mino i was saying that to danzik


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> nah this is me not the brother.



should have played it off as your brother. its time to swallow your pride a bit


----------



## min0 lee (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> i wasnt dissing mino i was saying that to danzik


Oh my mistake. 
Still, he made a little joke. No need to get mad at him.


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

i woud swallow my pride but u r completly wrong.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> i woud swallow my pride but u r completly wrong.



really? you have yet to come up with a handgun that would be better for concealed self-defense than the glock. remember that was the original topic here.  i really dont think lugging around an ar 15 is the smartest weapon for that. 

the truth is the glock is accurate, holds a high capacity of rounds, is concealable, reliable, and the 9mm round is generally considered an acceptable round for concealed defense.  you have yet to show contradictory evidence to any of these claims.  your one negative against the glock of not liking the grip is the only thing you have brought against the glock that could be benificial to this conversation. however you later said you would still purchase one, negating your only valid argument against the glock.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 28, 2007)

*Mah Fuckin Thread Jacked*

IIIII hate the internet.

Anyway, back to my original topic.

Im interested in purchasing a handgun. 

What small, concealable handgun would you suggest that will reliably fire, and preferably that you have experience with.

btw, ive been trained in gun safety/gun handling since childhood.

I could probably use a handgun course, just as a refresher, but that'd be a prereq, before I purchase.

Clean criminal record, no intentions of maiming humans, etc.



danny81 said:


> why do you want a glock? they are pretty shitty. if you want a good gun you cant go wrong with a .44 or a 357. berettas are pretty nice to.



why do you want a toyota? they are pretty shitty. if you want a nice vehicle you cant go wrong with a truck or a sedan. fords are pretty nice to.

wait what? You're a nice guy danny, sometimes I dont think you really read what youre typing though.




Hoglander said:


> So you are 18 and want a gun. First, go off and get one. Get it out of your system and bust up some bottles. Then put it aside. Do not carry a handgun unless you're on the job. If you carry every time you go out... the gun owns you and you are a royal pussy.



ive been handling and shooting firearms since before I even was of double digit age. its not a phase, its an interest.



ALBOB said:


> Our first contestant for Stupidest Post of the Day.
> 
> Handguns are expensive. The good ones anyway. Treat them as the investment they are, not only monetarily but, you're investing in something that may very well save your life. Don't scrimp on pennies when it comes to life saving tools. Do some research, not just books and magazines but, go to your local gun range and rent different models that interest you. First and foremost, don't buy a particular gun just because it's fashionable. Glocks are very fine weapons, but they're also very "Hollywood". If you like the feel of a Glock and you can shoot it well then, by all means, buy it. But try other brands and models first. You may find a weapon that you like even more. I have never held a Glock that feels comfortable to me. I'm a .45 ACP 1911 person myself. I like the way they feel in my hand and I can hit what I'm aiming at every time. Last but certainly not least, caliber selection is every bit as important as weapon selection. Again, don't but a certain caliber just because that's what everybody on T.V. is shooting. Yeah, 9mm is very popular, but it's by no means the best self-defense caliber. The documented best self-defense handgun caliber is the .357 Magnum, 125 grain hollow-point. But the .357 is a revolver caliber so it isn't very popular. So what? When my life is on the line I want effectiveness, not popularity. The .45 ACP is a very close second. You've got some good resources here at IM. If you have any questions at all, fire off a few PM's. (That way you won't have to listen to BS from the peanut gallery.)



I just wanted to get some feedback. Im not looking to take down bears or heavily armored cars, or the swat team. partially for peace of mind, for fun shooting, and for self defense. i need a gun I can conceal, and a gun I can shoot off 300 rounds with and not blink at the price. What small, concealable handgun would you suggest? Ill obviously try them some out before I drop a shitload of money on them.



iMan323 said:


> 1. You don't fucking need a hand gun.
> 2. If you're going to buy one, spend more on a quality piece.
> 3. 1911 is absolutely badass
> 4. If you really want to shoot guns, there's always the Army and the Marines. Fuck, they'll even pay for your ammo!!!



Instead of bullshit flaming, how about you post something constructive? what concealable handgun would you suggest?


----------



## MCx2 (Aug 28, 2007)

I love glocks.


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

hes not gunna carry it around. so he doesnt need it to be concealable.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> hes not gunna carry it around. so he doesnt need it to be concealable.



Im carrying it with me.

that was half the reason I wanted the glock 19, so I could bring it with me when I go places.

I dont need an ar-15.

im not fighting the communists.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

i personally like the berretta px4 storm. it comes in both 9mm and .40 cal is comparable in price and has a traditional safety.  ive shot this gun enough to know that it is accurate, the design is great in that it uses a mechanical advantage (rotating barrel) to reduce felt kick. high magazine capacities and i have always felt a gun should be useful as well as look good. it meets both requirements for me. while i prefer the traditional safety to the glock system, i dont have any real issues with the glock as a concealed carry.  it really came down to the fact that i think the glock is blocky looking and not very stylish (i realize this is a weak argument against) and i prefer the double action/single action of the berretta over the double action only glock.

hope this helped. i find the glock to really be a good gun, and one hard to argue with for a reliable handgun purchase


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 28, 2007)

Do you have any ballpark figure for how much itll set me back?


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> hes not gunna carry it around. so he doesnt need it to be concealable.



then i would go with the glock 21 as it is a .45  

but since he does want to carry it around the glock 17 is a nice gun


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

FishOrCutBait said:


> Do you have any ballpark figure for how much itll set me back?



i spent $500 on my px4 storm. prices do vary from state to state.  its comparable to a glock in price


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 28, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> i spent $500 on my px4 storm. prices do vary from state to state.  its comparable to a glock in price



ok good, thats what i was looking to spend.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

in CA magazine capacity is limited and prices are a bit higher.


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

i aidd a berta a ong time ago.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 28, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> in CA magazine capacity is limited and prices are a bit higher.



moving to Minnesota.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> i aidd a berta a ong time ago.



how old are you?


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

16 y.o


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> i aidd a berta a ong time ago.



the little red lines under a word means its spelled wrong.

and yes you said a berretta a long time ago. you also did not specify a cal or why the berretta would be better than a glock. if someone is going to spend 500 dollars they need to be informed about specifics.  berretta makes many different models of guns, you didn't specify one.  every argument you used against the glock could be used against the berretta because they are similar and your arguments against were ambiguous


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

FishOrCutBait said:


> moving to Minnesota.



purchase it there


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

well then if they want the specifics then they can look it up themelves.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

danny81 said:


> well then if they want the specifics then they can look it up themelves.



this is getting painful.  you have come here looking for advice on training for MMA fighting. those here who have experience have done their best to give you  specific advice with personal experiences to help you in your goals even though this is not a MMA forum.  we are doing the same thing here for concealed handguns.  

you need to realize people on this forum have not flamed you because they see you are trying to better yourself.  sometimes its hard. remember at 16 your here to learn


----------



## danny81 (Aug 28, 2007)

i no but i recomended him a gun he could of just googled it.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 28, 2007)

Agreed.

yeah, im gonna purchase it there, pretty sure im not even legally allowed to purchase/own a handgun until twenty one in good old cali.

500 hundo isnt bad at all, especially for some entertainment/peace of mind.

for something thatll last me a loooooong time too, thats a good investment.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

FishOrCutBait said:


> Agreed.
> 
> yeah, im gonna purchase it there, pretty sure im not even legally allowed to purchase/own a handgun until twenty one in good old cali.
> 
> ...



if you get the chance shoot a few different guns at the range first. hold a few different models/calibers before you buy. hands are different and things feel differently for the individual.  good luck and keep us posted on what you decide. id like to hear how this ends up


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 28, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> if you get the chance shoot a few different guns at the range first. hold a few different models/calibers before you buy. hands are different and things feel differently for the individual.  good luck and keep us posted on what you decide. id like to hear how this ends up



Itll likely be a couple months before anything really goes down. so I want to get a list of names of firearms to check out.

I guess mn is a state where anybody who can legally own a firearm can legally get a concealed weapons permit?

exciting.

So, glock 17 is on the list despite the size, 19 is on the top of the list of interests,

any names of other small size weapons? the beretta px4 storm? im checkin it out on the interwebs right now.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

smith and wesson makes the M&P. its kind of hard for me to remember off the top of my head. i was really more interested in the .40 cal gun than the nine.  many people have mentioned the many different 1911's out there. those are mosty .45 acp's however.  price plays a factor as well.  Sig-Saur makes a couple of really nice guns, they just priced themselves out of the market for me


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 28, 2007)

are you convinced the 9mm is the caliber you want?


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 28, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> are you convinced the 9mm is the caliber you want?



nope.

ill take anything really.

again, must be concealable. 

4 months out of the year thatll be a cinch. 

jackeeeeet.


----------



## BoneCrusher (Aug 29, 2007)

danny81 said:


> nah this is me not the brother.


You're acting like a little kid.  This is not the danny I've seen around here in the past with an even temper and an easy way of communicating.  Somehow you got your back up with guys that know and use guns for a living ... guys that have had to kill in the line of duty AND have seen the damage careless thoughts about guns can cause.  The comments you made about guns show you have very little actual knowledge about guns.  You really have nothing to offer here and should prolly just go do something other than piss people off


----------



## BoneCrusher (Aug 29, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> this is getting painful.  you have come here looking for advice on training for MMA fighting. those here who have experience have done their best to give you  specific advice with personal experiences to help you in your goals even though this is not a MMA forum.  we are doing the same thing here for concealed handguns.
> 
> you need to realize people on this forum have not flamed you because they see you are trying to better yourself.  sometimes its hard. remember at 16 your here to learn


When you say shit like this that makes perfect sense and forces me to agree with you it pisses me off.  You and I are diametrically opposed on almost everything ... yet here you go making perfect sense


----------



## maniclion (Aug 29, 2007)

danny81 said:


> i aidd a berta a ong time ago.


You ate a burrito a long time ago?  


Good for you...


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 29, 2007)

danny81 said:


> i suggest a 44 mag, 357 mag, g32 compact, tech 9, AR-15, UZI, i can go on and on.



And you would still be wrong, but that???s the beauty of the internet; anyone can give advice on anything.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 29, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> Your talking to a veteran who personnally met Smith and Wesson.
> .



That would be one oooooooooooooooold vet!


----------



## iMan323 (Aug 29, 2007)

I'm posting flaming bullshit only because I think you're stupid.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 29, 2007)

FishOrCutBait said:


> IIIII hate the internet.
> 
> Anyway, back to my original topic.
> 
> ...



Any of the major brands: glock, Hk, Sig, etc are all fine if you want a semi auto vs revolver. Again, I suggest you go to one of the forums such as THR 

THR - Powered by vBulletin

You wont get goofy little kids telling you to buy Uzi's there. An article of interest might be:

A Simple Guide for Buying and Carrying
a Self-Defense Handgun

Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters


----------



## ALBOB (Aug 29, 2007)

WillBrink said:


> That would be one oooooooooooooooold vet!



In my defense, I did not actually MEET Smith or Wesson....................but we corresponded quite a bit.  That new fangled telegraph system was great. 




MinO, you SUCK.


----------



## ALBOB (Aug 29, 2007)

FishOrCutBait said:


> IIIII hate the internet.
> 
> Anyway, back to my original topic.
> 
> ...




As I've stated, I a big fan of the .45 ACP cartridge in a 1911 frame.  That combo is perfect for what you've described.  Something to remember about concealability; the overall size of the weapon doesn't determine it's concealability.  It's primarily the WIDTH or thickness of the weapon that determines how easily you'll be able to hide it.  That's another plus for the 1911.  Here's my favorite of the "standar" models.

Springfield Armory

As I also stated, that's not the one I carry.  I'm a rather large person so I can get away with concealing a slightly larger weapon.  I carry a Para Ordnance P-12.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 29, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> I'm posting flaming bullshit only because I think you're stupid.


Because you think I'm stupid.

and what rational reason would you have to think I'm stupid?

Because I disregard your thoughtless posts and ask you to post something productive or shut the fuck up?



WillBrink said:


> Any of the major brands: glock, Hk, Sig, etc are all fine if you want a semi auto vs revolver. Again, I suggest you go to one of the forums such as THR
> 
> THR - Powered by vBulletin
> 
> ...



Thanks again for all the help youve given me thus far, I imagine Ill go lurk one of those forums now :/

ALBOB, BIOCHEM, BoneCrusher

thank you for your advice


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 29, 2007)

FishOrCutBait said:


> Thanks again for all the help youve given me thus far, I imagine Ill go lurk one of those forums now :/
> 
> thank you for your advice



No problem kid. Keep researching.


----------



## DOMS (Aug 29, 2007)

WillBrink said:


> Any of the major brands: glock, Hk, Sig, etc are all fine if you want a semi auto vs revolver. Again, I suggest you go to one of the forums such as THR
> 
> THR - Powered by vBulletin
> 
> ...



Have I told you lately how much I love you?


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 29, 2007)

DOMS said:


> Have I told you lately how much I love you?



your back. yea. we've missed your special touch on this thread.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 29, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> When you say shit like this that makes perfect sense and forces me to agree with you it pisses me off.  You and I are diametrically opposed on almost everything ... yet here you go making perfect sense



it's gonna be ok. i'm sure it wont happen again.  we dont have to tell anyone and this bad dream will all be forgotten.


----------



## iMan323 (Aug 29, 2007)

FishOrCutBait said:


> Because you think I'm stupid.
> 
> and what rational reason would you have to think I'm stupid?



1.  You're 18.
2.  You're attempting to buy something that you are not responsible enough nor have any training to handle. 
3.  See reasons 1 & 2.  


Actually, I don't have any gripes with you.  It's these stupid old farts who are telling you that it's okay and giving you advice that I really dislike.  You, on the other hand, would really benefit from a few years of military service.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 29, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> 1.  You're 18.
> 2.  You're attempting to buy something that you are not responsible enough nor have any training to handle.
> 3.  See reasons 1 & 2.
> 
> ...



so you disagree with the law that allows it's citizens to legally purchase and own firearms?  feel free to piss off.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 29, 2007)

DOMS said:


> Have I told you lately how much I love you?



No bitch, you have not!


----------



## iMan323 (Aug 29, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> so you disagree with the law that allows it's citizens to legally purchase and own firearms?  feel free to piss off.



fuck your mother.  you piss off.  i hope somebody hands you the keys to the quickest ride when you're piss drunk.  because that's what you're doing.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 29, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> 1.  You're 18.
> 2.  You're attempting to buy something that you are not responsible enough nor have any training to handle.
> 3.  See reasons 1 & 2.
> 
> ...



FYI

Ive been trained to handle firearms with respect and care since I was a child.


----------



## ALBOB (Aug 29, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> 1.  You're 18.
> 2.  You're attempting to buy something that you are not responsible enough nor have any training to handle.
> 3.  See reasons 1 & 2.
> 
> ...



Of all the world class idiots who've ever wasted my time on the internet, you're among the top.  (And no, in case you're too stupid to figure it out, that's NOT a compliment.)

Let's review one of your more stupid comments.  You don't trust him with a handgun because he's eighteen years old yet you recommend he join the military.  What in the Hell do you think he's going to be doing in the military?

Secondly, you dislike "old farts" giving him advice on proper weapon selection?  Tell me, where should he look for that advice, the local school yard?  We got to be "old farts" by knowing our shit.  Something you obviously have no clue about.

If I am, in fact, an old fart it's much better than being a young dumbass such as yourself. 

Rant over.  You've shown you're an idiot and are nothing more than a waste of perfectly good oxygen.  I refuse to waste my time with losers like you.  You are summarily dismissed.  Buh bye little boy.


----------



## RasPlasch (Aug 29, 2007)

I would get a Desert Eagle.  Those pistols have some stopping power.


----------



## iMan323 (Aug 29, 2007)

This little boy has 3 years experience running rifle, pistol, and other small arms ranges, MOUT, and advanced markmanship training for the us army and squaring away stupid little boys who think they know how to handle firearms.  i in the iman stands for infantryman, btw.  but keep on talking...keep on giving advice.  the world needs more backyard heros like you.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 29, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> fuck your mother.  you piss off.  i hope somebody hands you the keys to the quickest ride when you're piss drunk.  because that's what you're doing.



i dont drink.  how the hell can anyone relate giving advice on a legal handgun purchase to drinking and driving?  i'll never know.  some peoples kids, man are you for real, or are you just pissed off at something and trying to pick a fight on the internet where your anonymity will protect you from the royal beat down you so rightfully deserve? grow up and come back when your ready to have a real conversation.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 29, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> This little boy has 3 years experience running rifle, pistol, and other small arms ranges, MOUT, and advanced markmanship training for the us army and squaring away stupid little boys who think they know how to handle firearms.  i in the iman stands for infantryman, btw.  but keep on talking...keep on giving advice.  the world needs more backyard heros like you.



That would explain it,

you're a self righteous military prick.

no offense to the not douchebag military folk out there.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 29, 2007)

FishOrCutBait said:


> That would explain it,
> 
> you're a self righteous military prick.
> 
> no offense to the not douchebag military folk out there.



owned. nice post


----------



## ALBOB (Aug 29, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> This little boy has 3 years experience running rifle, pistol, and other small arms ranges, MOUT, and advanced markmanship training for the us army and squaring away stupid little boys who think they know how to handle firearms.  i in the iman stands for infantryman, btw.  but keep on talking...keep on giving advice.  the world needs more backyard heros like you.






    Three years?  Three WHOLE years???  I stand corrected, you're not even old enough to be called a little boy.  Go away child, there are adults here trying to have a serious conversation.


----------



## ALBOB (Aug 29, 2007)

FishOrCutBait said:


> That would explain it,
> 
> you're a self righteous military prick.
> 
> no offense to the not douchebag military folk out there.




He doesn't even qualify for that.  He pussed out and separated.  


"Violence never solves anything, that's why I got out of the military." - iMan323


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 29, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> ^^Nope.  My term of of service expired in 2004, I never re-upped and never looked back.



so if you have concerns about the military, why tell someone they should join?


----------



## DOMS (Aug 29, 2007)

RasPlasch said:


> I would get a Desert Eagle.  Those pistols have some stopping power.



That was the first gun that I ever fired.  Forget shooting people, just throw the gun at them.  That'd kill them too!


----------



## DOMS (Aug 29, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> your back. yea. we've missed your special touch on this thread.



Feelin' the love!

I injured my back a week and a half ago.  I pulled a muscle in a bad way.  When I'm laid up, I tend to post less.


----------



## DOMS (Aug 29, 2007)

WillBrink said:


> No bitch, you have not!



I don't like the tone in your voice.  See if I cook dinner for you tonight!!!


----------



## iMan323 (Aug 29, 2007)

I don't have any concerns with the military.  It is what it is.  I was simply making a point that guns belong in the hands of trained professionals who actually have a purpose.  I think letting an 18 year old kid buy a handgun for "self-protection" a gun is stupid and unsafe for everyone involved.  That's all.


----------



## DOMS (Aug 29, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> I was simply making a point that guns belong in the hands of trained professionals who actually have a purpose.



Why?  I'm not a trained professional, but I like to shoot at a range.  I haven't hurt any living creature with a gun,  why shouldn't I have fun with one?


----------



## RasPlasch (Aug 29, 2007)

DOMS said:


> That was the first gun that I ever fired.  Forget shooting people, just throw the gun at them.  That'd kill them too!




Haha you're lucky.  Did the Desert Eagle have alot of kick?  I heard it does.


----------



## DOMS (Aug 29, 2007)

RasPlasch said:


> Haha you're lucky.  Did the Desert Eagle have alot of kick?  I heard it does.



Not as much as you would think.  It did have a good kick, but not bad enough that I couldn't squeeze off a few rounds pretty quickly.


----------



## iMan323 (Aug 29, 2007)

DOMS said:


> Why?  I'm not a trained professional, but I like to shoot at a range.  I haven't hurt any living creature with a gun,  why shouldn't I have fun with one?



Ok, you have a point.  My point is, that potential for injury is simply too great when guns are mishandled.  Would you feel safe around someone who likes to operate heavy industrial equipment just for fun?  Some things are just not meant for toying with, you see?  There are simply too many "what if..." scenarios with guns.  What if you have a jammed round that decides to cook-off? What if you don't excersize muzzle control?  What if you're drunk and decide to play around with it?  What if somebody else mishandles it?  What if it's stolen? etc, etc.. like I said before, I _love_ guns.  However, I think as a society we'd be far better off without them.


----------



## DOMS (Aug 29, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> Ok, you have a point.  My point is, that potential for injury is simply too great when guns are mishandled.  Would you feel safe around someone who likes to operate heavy industrial equipment just for fun?  Some things are just not meant for toying with, you see?  There are simply too many "what if..." scenarios with guns.  What if you have a jammed round that decides to cook-off? What if you don't excersize muzzle control?  What if you're drunk and decide to play around with it?  What if somebody else mishandles it?  What if it's stolen? etc, etc.. like I said before, I _love_ guns.  However, I think as a society we'd be far better off without them.



The same sort "what ifs" can apply to driving a car.  Yeah, I know, a car and a gun were made with different purposes in minds, but you simply can't write off guns because something bad *might *happen.


----------



## danzik17 (Aug 29, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> Ok, you have a point. My point is, that potential for injury is simply too great when *cars* are mishandled. Would you feel safe around someone who likes to operate heavy industrial equipment just for fun? Some things are just not meant for toying with, you see? There are simply too many "what if..." scenarios with *cars*. What if you have a wheel that deflates violently? What if you don't excersize control? What if you're drunk and decide to play around with it? What if somebody else mishandles it? What if it's stolen? etc, etc.. like I said before, I _love_ *cars*. However, I think as a society we'd be far better off without them.



Just reinforcing DOMS' point


----------



## ZECH (Aug 29, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> There are simply too many "what if..." scenarios with guns.  What if you have a jammed round that decides to cook-off? What if you don't excersize muzzle control?  What if you're drunk and decide to play around with it?  What if somebody else mishandles it?  What if it's stolen? etc, etc.. like I said before, I _love_ guns.  However, I think as a society we'd be far better off without them.



The answer to all your questions is "being responsible". There is always one idiot that ruins it for everyone else. But the one responsible that screws up, should be the one that is held accountable, not everyone else. I was handling guns and hunting by myself when I was 9 or 10. I've never hurt anyone with guns. I think your last statement about society being better off without guns IMO, is a fallacy. On the other hand I think we would be worse off.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 29, 2007)

dg806 said:


> The answer to all your questions is "being responsible". There is always one idiot that ruins it for everyone else. But the one responsible that screws up, should be the one that is held accountable, not everyone else. I was handling guns and hunting by myself when I was 9 or 10. I've never hurt anyone with guns. I think your last statement about society being better off without guns IMO, is a fallacy. On the other hand I think we would be worse off.



 
my dad was a range officer at our local indore range. he competed in IPSC competitions and i practically grew up at the range my first 10 years of life.  ive spent a lot of time shooting with those who are knowlegeable and competent gun handlers, and unfortuneately time with those who are not. both military and non-military.  guns are great as long as they are handled responsibly. you make great points here


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 29, 2007)

DOMS said:


> Feelin' the love!
> 
> I injured my back a week and a half ago.  I pulled a muscle in a bad way.  When I'm laid up, I tend to post less.



hope things work out alright and your able to get back up to speed


----------



## Hoglander (Aug 29, 2007)

Some Gun Safety Links:

The 2007 Darwin Awards (A Bunch Of Bankers) :: Business News :: Here Is The City News :: The Latest Business & Financial Markets News And Views

The Rapid City Journal

The War on Guns: Darwin Award Nominee Sparks Call for More Gun Control

2000 Darwin Award: Gun Safety Training


----------



## BoneCrusher (Aug 29, 2007)

dg806 said:


> The answer to all your questions is "being responsible". There is always one idiot that ruins it for everyone else. But the one responsible that screws up, should be the one that is held accountable, not everyone else. I was handling guns and hunting by myself when I was 9 or 10. I've never hurt anyone with guns. I think your last statement about society being better off without guns IMO, is a fallacy. On the other hand I think we would be worse off.



Old but worth a repost.





YouTube Video


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 29, 2007)

damn wtf?  .458? .460 weatherby? what are we talking here?


----------



## Hoglander (Aug 30, 2007)

Not a shotgun but a .577 T-Rex. Light gun big ammo.. BIG KICK.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 30, 2007)

FishOrCutBait said:


> That would explain it,
> 
> you're a self righteous military prick.
> 
> no offense to the not douchebag military folk out there.



I believe this is all a moot point no? Most states, if not all (have not looked at that issue recently as  18 was a while ago for me!) require you to be 21 to carry a gun? I did put up the URL for state by state laws you can look at. If you are in a state/moving to a state that allows CCW at 18, then it's my post here that is moot! Regardless, I can say I would have reservations about my 18 year old (if I had one) going CCW unless I REALLY felt he was up to that level of responsibility and training, and I have never met an 18 year old I felt was squared away enough on all fronts to be carrying a gun. 

If I did have an 18 year old son, I will say he would be well acquainted and experienced with firearms well before he was 18 and there would be plenty of father/son range trips where i could get him well trained, which is exactly what I see at my range all the time on a Sat afternoon. If my 18 year old son decided he then  wanted a gun of his own, that would be fine too, but it would stay in the safe for those father/son range days until he was 21 and CCW legal and considered an adult. Are you parents planning to purchase this handgun for you and if so, under what circumstances, such as I listed above?


----------



## DOMS (Aug 30, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> hope things work out alright and your able to get back up to speed



Thanks, man.  I'm doing a lot better now than when I injured it about two weeks ago.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 30, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> Ok, you have a point.  My point is, that potential for injury is simply too great when guns are mishandled.



Potential being the key word there. Did you know accidents with guns are at an all time low? Accidental death by pools, bikes, etc are far higher. Again, we are stuck with those pesky facts again, those facts you seem to love to ignore. For example, regarding kids and guns:

???The reality does not correspond to the perception created by media coverage. Fatal gun accidents declined by almost sixty percent from 1975 to 1995, even though the number of guns per capita increased by almost forty percent.???

GunCite-Gun Accidents

Does it ever occur to you to actually do some research before you type? Didn???t think so???.

No one is actually disagreeing with you on one key point: gun are very dangerous, they are tools and not toys, but their actual risk compared other things is quite low, and getting lower in terms of accidents. 




iMan323 said:


> like I said before, I _love_ guns.  However, I think as a society we'd be far better off without them.



You mean if we could wave a magic wand and make them all go away? And I mean ALL, as in none for the police  and none for the military all over the world? That's about the only scenario that might make me willing to give up by Second Amend Rights for the good of mankind, but that will not and can't happen, people would always find other ways to kill each other, and larger stronger people or groups would always have the upper hand thus the well-known expression by Colt, which I wont repeat as I am sure you know it well.


----------



## DOMS (Aug 30, 2007)

As for removing all the guns: it ain't gonna happen.

Tiny counties (such as some Europeans countries), or countries that are bordered on all sides by the oceans (the UK and Australia come to mind), may be able to pull this off.  But the US can't do this.  We share very long borders with two other countries (one being an absolute shit hole).  It's just not feasible.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 30, 2007)

DOMS said:


> As for removing all the guns: it ain't gonna happen.
> 
> Tiny counties (such as some Europeans countries), or countries that are bordered on all sides by the oceans (the UK and Australia come to mind), may be able to pull this off.  But the US can't do this.  We share very long borders with two other countries (one being an absolute shit hole).  It's just not feasible.



Nope, NO ONE can pull it off. The UK for example has attempted to ban hanguns a few years back. The result? Their crime rates  went **UP**, not down.


----------



## DOMS (Aug 30, 2007)

WillBrink said:


> Nope, NO ONE can pull it off. The UK for example has attempted to ban hanguns a few years back. The result? Their crime rates  went **UP**, not down.



Yes.  For both the UK, and Australia, the crime rate when down at first, but then went right back up and beyond.

Although, the gun ban in the UK does make for funny television shows.  I watched the first episode of _Cops with Cameras_.  It's the British version of _Cops_.  It's funny to watch them storm a drug users house, with the dire sounding music playing, and the only real weapons that they guy had were a knife and a hammer.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 30, 2007)

DOMS said:


> Yes.  For both the UK, and Australia, the crime rate when down at first, but then went right back up and beyond.
> 
> Although, the gun ban in the UK does make for funny television shows.  I watched the first episode of _Cops with Cameras_.  It's the British version of _Cops_.  It's funny to watch them storm a drug users house, with the dire sounding music playing, and the only real weapons that they guy had were a knife and a hammer.



I suppose, but the point being, the gun ban has not reduced criminal access to guns, haas not reduced crime rates. etc,  which comes as a huge "no shit Sherlock" for those who use the brain God/nature gave them and a real shocker to those in the UK now in favor of banning pointy knives and airguns. I'm not kidding either. For example:

Ban on airguns won't work, insist critics
HAMISH MACDONELL

MINISTERS insisted last night they would pursue plans for a Scotland-wide ban on all air weapons despite condemnation from airgun enthusiasts and a warning from a senior police officer a ban would not prevent future tragedies.

The SNP administration wants to ban all air weapons in Scotland and has started negotiations with the UK government to find ways of bringing this about.

Cont:

Scotsman.com News - Politics - Ban on airguns won't work, insist critics

Now compare that above to this article from the UK Telegraph, and you start to see the picture:

An Englishman's home is his dungeon - Telegraph


----------



## DOMS (Aug 30, 2007)

WillBrink said:


> I suppose, but the point being, the gun ban has not reduced criminal access to guns, haas not reduced crime rates. etc,  which comes as a huge "no shit Sherlock" for those who use the brain God/nature gave them and a real shocker to those in the UK now in favor of banning pointy knives and airguns. I'm not kidding either. For example:
> 
> Ban on airguns won't work, insist critics
> HAMISH MACDONELL
> ...



WTF?

Now they want to ban pellet guns, too?

I like the Brits, but their government is, in many ways, crazier than our own!

Not only are they apparently banning anything that might be considered a weapon (i.e. put out an eye), but they want to put GPS devices in the cars.  Not to mention that there are three cameras for every person living in London.

George Orwell was so very frighteningly correct.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 30, 2007)

DOMS said:


> WTF?
> 
> Now they want to ban pellet guns, too?
> 
> ...



And you know how he felt on the issue:

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or laborer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there." --George Orwell


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 30, 2007)

DOMS said:


> (one being an absolute shit hole)



Canada isnt _*THAT*_ bad.


----------



## DOMS (Aug 30, 2007)

FishOrCutBait said:


> Canada isnt _*THAT*_ bad.



I saw that coming.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 30, 2007)

DOMS said:


> I saw that coming.



Was it running at you with a neon sign on it's forehead? 

In any case, yeah, america is far too big for that.

and Im far too ornery to relinquish my right to defend myself from the government.


----------



## DOMS (Aug 30, 2007)

FishOrCutBait said:


> Was it running at you with a neon sign on it's forehead?
> 
> In any case, yeah, america is far too big for that.
> 
> and Im far too ornery to relinquish my right to defend myself from the government.



No doubt.  I find it amusing when many of the same people who say they don't trust GWB, the man at the helm of this country, and also say that we shouldn't have the tools to defend ourself from that same government.


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 30, 2007)

WillBrink said:


> I believe this is all a moot point no? Most states, if not all (have not looked at that issue recently as  18 was a while ago for me!) require you to be 21 to carry a gun? I did put up the URL for state by state laws you can look at. If you are in a state/moving to a state that allows CCW at 18, then it's my post here that is moot! Regardless, I can say I would have reservations about my 18 year old (if I had one) going CCW unless I REALLY felt he was up to that level of responsibility and training, and I have never met an 18 year old I felt was squared away enough on all fronts to be carrying a gun.
> 
> If I did have an 18 year old son, I will say he would be well acquainted and experienced with firearms well before he was 18 and there would be plenty of father/son range trips where i could get him well trained, which is exactly what I see at my range all the time on a Sat afternoon. If my 18 year old son decided he then  wanted a gun of his own, that would be fine too, but it would stay in the safe for those father/son range days until he was 21 and CCW legal and considered an adult. Are you parents planning to purchase this handgun for you and if so, under what circumstances, such as I listed above?



Well, I just looked closely, and I can own at 18, but cannot carry til 21, which is better than cali, where I dont think I can even own (handguns) until 21. In any case, itll give me time to become more acquainted with my firearm.

My parents have nothing to do with this.

My father doesnt live with or near me, and my mother treats me like an adult.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 30, 2007)

FishOrCutBait said:


> Well, I just looked closely, and I can own at 18, but cannot carry til 21, which is better than cali, where I dont think I can even own (handguns) until 21. In any case, itll give me time to become more acquainted with my firearm.
> 
> My parents have nothing to do with this.
> 
> My father doesnt live with or near me, and my mother treats me like an adult.



Then perhaps some mother/son range trips will be in order!


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Aug 30, 2007)

WillBrink said:


> Then perhaps some mother/son range trips will be in order!



why, so I can teach her how to shoot? haha.

I've fired rifles, shotguns and handguns enough to know how to handle them all on at least a basic level.


----------



## DOMS (Aug 30, 2007)

FishOrCutBait said:


> why, so I can teach her how to shoot? haha.
> 
> I've fired rifles, shotguns and handguns enough to know how to handle them all on at least a basic level.



The family that shoots together, stays together.


----------



## Will Brink (Sep 4, 2007)

DOMS said:


> Yes.  For both the UK, and Australia, the crime rate when down at first, but then went right back up and beyond.
> .



Ministers 'covered up' gun crime
David Leppard

THE government was accused yesterday of covering up the full extent of the gun crime epidemic sweeping Britain, after official figures showed that gun-related killings and injuries had risen more than fourfold since 1998. 

Ministers 'covered up' gun crime - Times Online


----------



## DOMS (Sep 4, 2007)

WillBrink said:


> Ministers 'covered up' gun crime
> David Leppard
> 
> THE government was accused yesterday of covering up the full extent of the gun crime epidemic sweeping Britain, after official figures showed that gun-related killings and injuries had risen more than fourfold since 1998.
> ...



I'm not even remotely surprised.  Europeans are pretty big on manipulating statistics regarding crime and mortality.


----------



## bio-chem (Sep 4, 2007)

how the hel did this guy only get 6 years?
Six years for rapist who invited friends to prey on lost 12-year-old girl - Times Online

torture would be too easy of a sentence for this guy and he only gets 6 years? wtf?


----------



## min0 lee (Sep 4, 2007)

unreal..........


----------



## bio-chem (Sep 4, 2007)

is that normal sentencing in the UK? does anyone know if things are really that screwed up over there or is this an aberation?


----------



## Will Brink (Sep 4, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> how the hel did this guy only get 6 years?
> Six years for rapist who invited friends to prey on lost 12-year-old girl - Times Online
> 
> torture would be too easy of a sentence for this guy and he only gets 6 years? wtf?




Lack of/poor sentencing of criminals is considered one of the major reasons their crime went up while ours went down. Our sentencing guidelines got tougher, while the Europeans don???t seem to emphasize punishing the criminal???


----------



## bio-chem (Sep 4, 2007)

so is it the fact they are getting out faster and re-commiting a crime that has increased the crime rate, or is it a larger percentage are not disuaded from commiting that has caused the crime rate to go up


----------



## Will Brink (Sep 4, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> so is it the fact they are getting out faster and re-commiting a crime that has increased the crime rate, or is it a larger percentage are not disuaded from commiting that has caused the crime rate to go up



I think the answer to that would have to be both reasons no? Add to that the fact they know very few people can defend themselves in their own homes, and it's good to be a criminal in the UK it appears.


----------



## bio-chem (Sep 21, 2007)

hey not sure if you have made your decision yet but another model to look at would be FNH USA's   FNP-9 series gun. it comes in 9mm and .40 cal and is a nice gun to hold. price is reasonable as well. ive seen it for as low as $459 depending where you are. sub-500 price tag isnt out of the question on this gun. you might want to check it out as a possibility


----------



## Will Brink (Sep 28, 2007)

You know what they say, a picture is worth a thousand words, than this vid is worth a million:


Weapon Videos - Point, Aim, Click, Film........ :: Video :: Gun bans in the UK (NRA)


----------



## FishOrCutBait (Sep 28, 2007)

thanks again everybody for the help deciding 

im definitely gonna head out to a range shortly after things get more settled here


----------

