# The NHE and ONE - cut and bulk



## Robboe (Aug 9, 2002)

*The NHE/Slow Gain/ONE Experience(s)*

This isn't a proper journal as such, just a little way for you guys to get an idea of the gist of NHE. I'd prefer it if it stayed in the diet forum.

Here's a brief run down:

 There usually begins a 7-day 'metabolic shift', where you keep carbs at 20g or below and have no carb load. This moves you from a 'sugar burner' to a 'fat burner', as Rob Faigan calls it. I've actually been on a cyclical carb diet since last July (2001) and i've been doing an NHE modification for the past 10 weeks. I'm not doing the full metabolic shift. I see no need to - all it would give me is further thyroid shutdown, even lower leptin, slow my metabolism and make me loose strength - all for very little in beneficial effects. 

And i've said it before and i'll say it again, I personally think the 7 day metabolic shift is only for people who use carbs as their major macronutrient - ie someone who has at least 30% of cals coming from carbs everyday and also for everyday people who also tend to get the majority of their cals from carbs (usually sugary ones).




Anyway, here's what i'm eating:

Non-training days:

1. Tin tuna 
3 tsp oil 

2. 60g chicken breast 
144g cottage cheese 
20g cashews 
green veg

3. Tin tuna 
3 tsp oil 

4. 60g chicken breast 
144g cottage cheese 
25g cashews 
green veg

5. 5 egg whites, 4 whole eggs 		

6. Tin tuna 							
3 tsp oil 


Training days:

1. 4 egg whites, 2 whole eggs

2. 60g chicken 
94g cottage cheese 
15g cashews 
green veg

3. 4 scoops simply whey
1 fluid oz whipping cream 

4. tin tuna
1oz cream (or 3 tsp oil) 

5. 60g chicken 
100g cottage cheese
15g cashews 

6. Tin tuna
2 tsp oil 

7. 200g serloin steak 
green veg


Yeah, it's the same food everyday, but i'm quite hardcore as far as diet is concerned - i'm willing to do whatever it takes. Bland, repetative and boring though it maybe.

My carb loads are bi-weekly and will be on saturday nights, which is the night before leg day (in the morning) and tuesday nights ('push' day - chest, delts, tris).

The carb load is gonna be 300g at first, i need to see how they go for the first couple of weeks before assessing if they need changed and lowered or increased.

I plan to get the first 100g from a 50/50 dex/malto mix (with some whey protein for taste, although Rob recommends not actually keeping protein and fat as low as possible during the upcycle to make sure you use all your room for carbs and to prevent any gastric upset.

The remaining 200g will be from oats, potatoes and rice, most likely. I may even use spagettii, since i'm thinking the type of carbs i use won't be _that_ relavent providing they're starchy, since my insulin levels will shoot up anyway (hoping providing some anabolism and maybe even boosting some leptin, even thought i don't plan on overspilling into fat cells).


My first 'official' day of NHE was wednesday, but nothing in my diet changed. Yesterday i trained back and bis and instead of my usual dex/malto post w/o i had whey in water with 1oz cream. Felt a bit weird actually. Usually after my carb/pro shake ingestion i'd feel bloated, 'soft' and feel tired (most likely the seritonnin) but then after my whey and cream i felt quite 'jiggy jiggy', sorta.  

For training i did:

back: 8 sets (quite high volume for me actually)
traps: 1 set (the BB rows polished my traps quite nicely)
biceps: 1 superset of cable curls and the arm curling machine thingie. haha. Hell, i dunno the name of it. 

The workout was fun. I'm currently working on my wide-grip chinning strength, cause it...sucks basically. But i'm improving, slowly, but surely...


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## Robboe (Aug 9, 2002)

On wednesday i got up at 6am and did some morning cardio on my first ECA in about 7-8 months. I felt it all throughout the day. A nice warm feeling, almost like i was sweating, but not quite.

I had the same ECA today, but no morning cardio (i prefered to stay in bed a bit longer - i need the sleep) and didn't feel quite as warm or for quite as long.

On the night time i went to see Newcastle Utd vs Barcalona.

Quite a crappy match though, but i've wanted to see barca play since i was a wee bairn, so it was cool.

I also nearly caught hypothermia from the rain and wind.

I then met a friend who now lives just outside of Glasgow in Scotland who was down for the week. No alcohol consumption - i've done enough of that the previous monday and friday. No drinking for at least another week, or until i'm settled on NHE.

I think i'm gonna get up and try that stubborn fat program of Lyle's tomorrow. Maybe just down the back lane near me and the around the housing estate, or i may go to the nearby gym. Not quite decided yet.

Anyhoo, that is all.


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## LrdViperScrpion (Aug 9, 2002)

Cool post TCD, although I'm not entirely knowledgeable on all of this stuff, I am interested in seeing how it goes.


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## Yanick (Aug 9, 2002)

TCD, how is this diet different from a CKD?  I'm not too familiar with this NHE stuff, but it seems just like a CKD.  Low carb for a while then carb up and repeat. 

Can you post up some guidelines?  Like stay below maintanance (obviously), ratios, carb up ratios, recommended carb grams for the carb up, length of carb up (recommended), any other relevant information.  Or point me to a good site that will explain all of these things, as well as the theory behind the diet (i'm guessing something to do with hormones).


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## Tank316 (Aug 9, 2002)

cool post TCD, Thanks for sharing.keep us posted please, interesting stuff.


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## Robboe (Aug 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> TCD, how is this diet different from a CKD?  I'm not too familiar with this NHE stuff, but it seems just like a CKD.  Low carb for a while then carb up and repeat.
> 
> Can you post up some guidelines?  Like stay below maintanance (obviously), ratios, carb up ratios, recommended carb grams for the carb up, length of carb up (recommended), any other relevant information.  Or point me to a good site that will explain all of these things, as well as the theory behind the diet (i'm guessing something to do with hormones).




That's just it man, there aren't really any recommendations. Rob made this diet as a 'real world' diet for the real world person. The only thing he asks you to count is carbs on the metabolic shift - under 20g, and then on the downcycle (the days between your carb loads) he states men can take in between 30-60g a day from indirect carb sources (direct ones tend to cause cravings) and women between 20-40g. Indirect carb sources are carbs you get from other foods with small carb counts like certain fruits (not dried fruits or carb dense ones, just fibrous watery ones are allowed) green veg, nuts, cheeses etc...

Protein should be between 20-50g a meal, a minimum of 4 meals a day, eating every 4 hours at the least, although he recognises life and commitments may get in the way. But if your protein is higher or lower in some meals, what the hell.

There are no tabs on fat - he just recommends being realistic and basically not just taking the piss by eating jars of PB etc...

He also gives some very good reasons for not counting calories, although i do personally believe to get to low bf%'s you need to count and control calories.

The carb load is bi-weekly. Every 3rd and then 4th day. No tabs on carbs here. He just says to binge like fuck. Mostly on starchy carbs, keeping fat and protein as low as possible, but it is a real world, average person diet, so you can do a little cheating here if you feel you need it. It's perfectly acceptable. You basically space the carb load out over the two meals before bed eg. one at 8pm then one at 10pm, bed by 10:30 or 11pm. 

If you think about it, you're not actually gonna be able to pack down that many carbs in such a short sitting without feeling totally ill, so it's quite clever in that respect - making people think they can eat as much as they want, only to be (unknowingly) stopped by their own limitations. Makes people think the diet is more 'free', if you will.

By the way, nice guess that it's about the hormones, what with it being called 'natural *hormonal* enhancement' and all that... 

It's not CKD, no. It's not a ketogenic diet. To hit keto, you need sufficient fat and lower protein. NHE is mod fat, mod/high protein. Basically, not enough fat and too much protein to get into ketosis for most people (although some may still achieve ketosis during the downcycle, and more likely during the last day(s) of the metabolic shift).

They're the same as far as "cyclical periodical carb loading" goes, but ckd = 5 days of essentially no carbs followed by 2 days card up. NHE = 3 days and then 4 days of low carbs followed by shorter carb ups, without being in ketosis.

Check out www.extique.com and check out the 'ask rob' section, there's some great info on there. If you want all the relavant reading, then buy the book


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## Robboe (Aug 9, 2002)

Now i think of it, over the course of this thread (which, from the positive feedback so far, i will continue to update) you'll probably learn all you need to learn about NHE without having to buy the book, but it's a fantastic read that i implore anyone/everyone to read.


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## Robboe (Aug 9, 2002)

The reasons for the pre-bedtime carb loading are:

1. To stop you continuing eating fat when your insulin levels have been increased (fat goes straight to fat cells if sufficient insulin is present).

2. To make sure you don't feel horrible and bloated during the day.

3. To ensure the seritonnin coma that you'll experience doesn't effect your job or your life (remember, 'real world' person just wanting to lose fat and keep it off).

(I'll scan for my post on carbs and the seritonnin effect cause i've already written it up somewhere on this forum).

4. So you don't get a shit load of cravings to binge on more carbs - usually initiated by falling insulin levels which then boost ghrelin levels and makes you crave food -  carbs predominantly. I'm guessing PYY3-36 and MCH also interacts with this in some way or form via NPY and the meloncortin, but don't as me for specifics right now, i'm not entirely sure myself. He wants you to eat the carbs to ensure you prevent thyroid downregulation as much as possible, not to spill over for leptin purposes. This is actually one of the reasons why NHE is considered 'outdated' - because it only merely references leptin as a hormone that plays a big part in the fat loss picture, after all, it was written before 95 and leptin research was few and far between back then.


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## Robboe (Aug 9, 2002)

Ok, found it quicker than i expected. It's a quote of mine from a thread in supps.



> The EC cause release of the catecholmines (type of neurotransmitters) adrenalin [also called epinephrine] and noradrenalin [also called norepinephrine] and you can deplete them over time from too much stimulation from outside influences - in this case, ECA. It also messes with neurotransmitters like dopamine, which can also be depleted. Thus, you start to feel run down and lethargic.
> 
> The catecholmines precursors are aminos acids phenylalanine for noradrenalin and tyrosine for dopamine. So if you eat foods with these aminos high in the profile (like cheese, or my fav, cottage cheese) you can restore them or maybe stop them from falling in the first place. You could also consider the use of supplemental aminos but it's not really necessary.
> 
> Incidentally, if anyone has something that need clear mental focus for, eating cheese or cottage cheese is a good idea of a food to eat a few hours before hand.



And that is exactly why i eat some much cottage cheese  besides the fact that i'm actually addicted to it.


I do actually have a small jar of half gram L-tyrosine tabs for when i've been on ECA for a bit longer. I'm not taking it (ECA) everyday just yet. I need to get a hold of some more, which is rather hard since the E of the stack is actually illegal over here. I don't want my adrenals totally exhausted from the stuff cause i hate feeling run down and fatigued. 

I've also heard on the grape vine of some other forums that taking 1g of L-tyrosine with ECA is quite a headfuck and almost sickly. Maybe i'll find out tomorrow, although i am planning not to use the E straight away in the morning before cardio, just the C and the tyrosine.


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## Yanick (Aug 9, 2002)

Thanx for the info TCD, i'm going to have to check this out, it is very intriguing, and please do post your results here.



> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> By the way, nice guess that it's about the hormones, what with it being called 'natural *hormonal* enhancement' and all that...




*Note to self, never use sarcasm around TCD*


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## w8lifter (Aug 9, 2002)

A most excellent thread Chicken Baby!  I've stickied it...you have to update it now 

So...you are still planning on using the ephedrine even after reading what Lyle said about it?

.....jiggy eh?


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## w8lifter (Aug 9, 2002)

Oh...and I forget...your morning cardio...is that on empty?


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## Jodi (Aug 9, 2002)

Hi Chicken Daddy!  Thanks for sharing this with us, I'm really interested in seeing how this goes.  I'm trying to learn and understand the science behind this so I really look forward to reading this.


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## Dr. Pain (Aug 9, 2002)

Gr8 journal TCD 


DP


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## Robboe (Aug 10, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by w8lifter *_
> So...you are still planning on using the ephedrine even after reading what Lyle said about it?




Well i didn't bother _before_ the cardio today, but i may in about an hour cause i'm tired as hell now, and i wanna read some more of LOTR III some time today (most excellent book).

I got up, took 2g L-Tyrosine, 200mcg caffiene and a multivit. Waited about 30 minutes (impractical for me to wait even more) and then headed off.

I began with 5 minutes warm up on the tready and then did 5 minutes of progressive running (starting at 8mph and moving up 0.5mph every minute until i was on 10mph). After that, i slowed right down to 4mph before my heart packed it's bags and left my chest for good and walked for 3 minutes. I followed it up with a further 3 minutes of progressive running.

Sat down for a few minutes.

Did 30 minutes on the stepper, was sweating like a fat one. Felt great.

I've come home, waited 30 minutes and had some chicken breast (with some green veg too, cause i wanted some satiety, i hope that's ok. I'll ask Lyle in a bit).

I'm about to go start my proper eating for the day. In 5 minutes precisely, in fact.

My hunger has all but disappeared too. Strange that. Usually i'm ravenous.

Righty, i'll tell y'all how i'm feeling later...um...later.


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## Robboe (Aug 10, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by w8lifter *_
> Oh...and I forget...your morning cardio...is that on empty?




Yeah, when i refer to 'morning cardio' i refer to pre-breakfast cardio.


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## w8lifter (Aug 10, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> I've come home, waited 30 minutes and had some chicken breast (with some green veg too, cause i wanted some satiety, i hope that's ok. I'll ask Lyle in a bit).



Yeah...I'd like to know _why_ just protein


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## Robboe (Aug 10, 2002)

I imagine cause:

a) protein is the most thermogenic of the macros.

and:

b) Fat or carbs would stop the body burning it's own fat.


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## w8lifter (Aug 10, 2002)

So why eat at all? Why not just w8 till your next scheduled meal?


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## Robboe (Aug 10, 2002)

Muscle sparing i'd guess.


Anaerobic exercise does use glucose, remember.


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## Robboe (Aug 10, 2002)

One thing i forgot to mention: I'm doing a little experiment. I do legs tomorrow morning, so i'd usually not do cardio today, but i'm carbing up tonight, so we'll see if i can get away with cardio the day before legs. I'll tell you if i have a good workout tomorrow. I hope so.


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## Tank316 (Aug 10, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Dr. Pain *_
> Gr8 journal TCD
> 
> 
> DP


ditto DP, i find it very interesting


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## w8lifter (Aug 10, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Muscle sparing i'd guess.
> 
> 
> Anaerobic exercise does use glucose, remember.




Yes...I'd still prefer to w8 till my scheduled meal though...although I do always schedule my workouts so that my next meal falls within an hr of the end of my w/o...not everyone can do that I suppose.


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## Shmoo (Aug 10, 2002)

TCD I`m glad to see your doing this NHE journal. I have toyed with the NHE diet in the past. Right now I`m on a low carb diet and have been debating to try the NHE diet again, and your journal has motivated me to try it again. I am looking forward to reading this journal and the carb up days.


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## Robboe (Aug 10, 2002)

So i emailed Lyle, and here is the email in it's entirity:



> >Another question: why just protein after the cardio? I'm guessing it has
> >something to do with keeping your body burning it's own bf stores and
> >being muscle sparing, but what is your reasoning?
> 
> ...



If you're wondering what i mean by giving him weekly updates, it's cause he's asked me to keep him updated on how i do with this style of cardio. If anyone else opts to try it, i'm sure he'd appreciate feedback from you also. We'll be the guinea pigs, if you will.


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## Robboe (Aug 10, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Shmoo *_
> TCD I`m glad to see your doing this NHE journal. I have toyed with the NHE diet in the past. Right now I`m on a low carb diet and have been debating to try the NHE diet again, and your journal has motivated me to try it again. I am looking forward to reading this journal and the carb up days.




Toyed with as in modified it a bit?

I've just come off a (personally) modified version of the diet with smaller carb loads coming directly post train and no pre-bedtime bi-weekly carb ups.

What kind of 'low carb' diet are you currently following? Guidelines?


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## Robboe (Aug 10, 2002)

Thought I'd go a bit deeper into the reasoning of using L-Tyrosine. And also, why i eat cottage cheese (rich in tyrosine) before training. here's a fantastic quote from Tom Mattews:



> Norepinephrine (aka noradrenaline) is the first output product of the adrenal medulla produced via the pathway tyrosine -> dopa -> dopamine -> norephinephrine. Ephinephrine (adrenaline) is made in the adrenal medulla directly norepinephrine (using SAMe). The ratio of production and output of norepinephrine to epinephrine is 20:80% Both norepinephrine and epinephrine are stored in the medulla after production.
> Norepinephrine functions by causing constriction of essentially all the blood vessels in the body, increases activity of the heart, inhibition of the GI tract, dilation of the pupils, etc. Epinephrine causes almost the same effects except that is has a much stronger stimulating effect on the heart. However, epinephrine has a weaker effect on the vascular smooth muscle cells and does not raise blood pressure nearly as much as norepinephrine. In addition, epinephrine increases tissue metabolic rate much more so that norepinephrine and can double the metabolic output of the body. It also increases glycogenolysis in the liver and muscles the consequent releases of glucose into the blood to fuel the increased metabolic rate.




The full pathway, however, is this:

phenylalanine -> tyrosine -> dopa -> dopamine -> norepinephrine -> epinephrine. 

So there is also potential from Phenylalanine supplementation or from foods rich in phenylalanine.


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## Robboe (Aug 10, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 4. So you don't get a shit load of cravings to binge on more carbs - usually initiated by falling insulin levels which then boost ghrelin levels and makes you crave food -  carbs predominantly. I'm guessing PYY3-36 and MCH also interacts with this in some way or form via NPY and the meloncortin, but don't as me for specifics right now, i'm not entirely sure myself.




Here's a picture summing up a very basic picture. It doesn't explain everything, but it does make a few things clearer (well it did for me, and so i hope for you).







(Thanks to Leah for this )


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## Robboe (Aug 10, 2002)

Well i re-sized it and it's came out hella small.

Anyone else with magic image-resizing fingers who can aid me?

Gimme an email addy and i'll send it to you to resize.

And why can i only attach 60k files?


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## Shmoo (Aug 10, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I toyed or modified it by changing the carb days from 3-4 to 3-3 and 2-3 and the amount of carbs at each meal. I had a hockey related knee injury at the time and was unable to do any cardio, and now with my knee is close to100% I`m going to throw some cardio in this time and see how it goes. 

The low carb diet I have been doing is just a modified version of the male cutting meal plan that DP posted here. It`s been going ok but I would like to try the NHE diet again with some added morning cardio 2-3 times a week.


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## Yanick (Aug 10, 2002)

TCD,

My email, Yanick987@aol.com, i'll give it a shot.  This is really interesting stuff.


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## w8lifter (Aug 10, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> So i emailed Lyle, and here is the email in it's entirity:
> 
> 
> ...




I will do it Chicken Baby....I am having a hell of a time cutting this time around...my body is really resistent... and I'm always up for experimenting.... 

You can email that pic to me if you want and I'll see if I can resize it.


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## Robboe (Aug 10, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> TCD,
> 
> My email, Yanick987@aol.com, i'll give it a shot.  This is really interesting stuff.



Sent.


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## Robboe (Aug 10, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by w8lifter *_
> I will do it Chicken Baby....I am having a hell of a time cutting this time around...my body is really resistent... and I'm always up for experimenting....




Great!

I imagine Lyle will appreciate feedback from a female's point of view.


Are you just gonna put little tidbits and updates in here, or would you prefer emailing Lyle yourself?


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## w8lifter (Aug 10, 2002)

Well what kind of reports are you giving him? 

Do I have to get tested? I hate getting tested unless I'm already @ 10%


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## Robboe (Aug 10, 2002)

Not overly sure yet myself.

At the end of the week i was just gonna draft up a brief summary of the week's activities and how i feel they've affected me and my goals. I'm not getting tested either, too much hassle. I was just gonna give him estimations on how i feel the program is working as far as fat loss is concerned.

Whatever comes into my head on that day is what he's gonna get


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## w8lifter (Aug 10, 2002)

K...I'll just update here...might introduce myself to him eventually though


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## Robboe (Aug 10, 2002)

Ok, cool.


Tonight i had the carb load. Started at about 9:30pm. I had 50g dex, 50g malto, 2 scoops simply whey, 10g creatine, 6g CLA and 1mg biotin.

I had the creatine tub still left over from a few months back, so i figured anything to help store more water and glycogen has got to be worth it. We'll see. 

30 minutes later i chased it up with a small amount of chicken breast and 178g of oats. Which sounds like a hellish amount, but i don;t cook my oats and it didn't take me long to eat. I actually went against two of Rob's recommendations: 1) I ate protein during the carb load and 2) i drank water. As daft as the latter sounds, he recommends only 'sipping water' to control bloating during the carb up.

A little while after (a hour or two) i had a tin of tuna and 144g of brown rice. Again, it seems like a lot of food, but it wasn't _that_ bad. I think i can get away with it though, cause i'm a big lad as it is. Someone smaller may have trouble, but then again, someone smaller wouldn;t be taking in this amount of carbs in such a short duration.

In total i packed down about 300g carbs.

I have legs tomorrow, so i'll see how well this carb loading business has saved my training after today's cardio.


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## w8lifter (Aug 11, 2002)

Stupid fucking file size limit


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## Robboe (Aug 11, 2002)

Well i did legs this morning. Great workout it was too. So after week 1, i think i may be able to get away with doing a long cardio session the day before hitting legs without causing too much problem with my resistance training. It may, however, take a long term effect - ie it'll hit me after a few weeks and not straight away. But only time will tell.

For legs i did: 

squats - 3 sets
SLDLs - 1 set with 1 drop set
Leg press - 1 set with 1 drop set

I tried to do some calves and some abs, but the intensitiy just wasn't there - either was the strength.

I chugged my whey and cream and took 1g vitamin C and 200ug chromium piccolinate. I'm gonna cook up some steak in a moment 

Again, post training i'm quite perky and not in my usual seritonnin-induced comatose state, which is quite cool. Means my head is more clear for other things, like watching the FA charity shield on TV 

In case you guys are wondering why i'm usually in a seritonnin coma post training, it's cause of the carbs that i used to take in. I used to load post workout, but no more for now. It's cause there are 5 aminos that compete for transport across the blood brain barrier, one of them being tryptophan - the precursor for seritonnin. There are only so many receptor sites for these aminos to compete for, so there's a "balance" if you will. However, once you eat carbs, the insulin release the body uses to lower blood sugar levels actually transports the aminos into body tissues like muscle - except the tryptophan because it is bound to a protein (albumin i think) and so isn't carried by the insulin. This means that the tryptophan has an easy access through the blood brain barrier in larger amounts and thus, converts to seritonnin and makes you feel all groggy. This happens anytime you eat a high carb meal. Just think back to thanks giving dinner and how you feel about an hour afterwards


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## Robboe (Aug 11, 2002)

Cool!

Thanks leah.

Ok, hopefully that'll help you visualise how some things work as far as the hormones go and how your body makes dieting down difficult.


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## kuso (Aug 11, 2002)

TCD......GREAT thread !!!!!!!!

I`m not asking you to post em, but did you take some pix or something to see how this goes?


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## Robboe (Aug 11, 2002)

No, sorry.


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## Dr. Pain (Aug 11, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Ok, cool.
> 
> 
> Tonight I had the carb load. Started at about 9:30pm. I had 50g dex, 50g malto, 2 scoops simply whey, 10g creatine, 6g CLA and 1g biotin.



Quick question TCD, I've been away but following.  Here Biotin is dosed 800 mcgs By Twinlab and 2500 mcgs by Nature's Life.  I have never seen larger amounts....how did you get a gram?


DP


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## Robboe (Aug 12, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Dr. Pain *_
> 
> 
> Quick question TCD, I've been away but following.  Here Biotin is dosed 800 mcgs By Twinlab and 2500 mcgs by Nature's Life.  I have never seen larger amounts....how did you get a gram?
> ...




My fault, sorry, they're just 1mg tabs. (i've amended now).

I use a cheap health store (Holand and barrett) in Newcastle city centre for most of my vits, or the supermarket (Tesco) amazingly. I don't have loads of dispensible cash for supps (which is why i'm quite anti-supps for the most part, the rest of the part being that most are shit) so i don't go OTT with the vits and such. I know a lot of people use those "mega vitamin stacks" and all that, but i get more than the RDA for most, and i chose my foods sensibly for micro as well as macronutrient content.

I will, however, be looking into the nature's life product to see how much it bends my budget. I'm quite a firm beliver in Biotin to aid insulin sensitivity, even if i'm not diabetic.

Oh, and as camp as this sounds, i have noticed visible improvements in my skin (especially my face which was/still is quite bad for acne), hair and finger nails (if only i'd stop biting the fuckers and let them grow).

Well, i did cardio this evening. 

Got home from graft at about 4:15pm, popped 200mg caffiene (i wonder if i'll pay for _that_ tonight...) and 2g L-tyrosine. 

Incidentally, my last meal prior to this was at 1:30pm, meaning several hours between eating and cardio, hopefully emulating some of the effects of morning cardio to the best possible degree.

Was doing my sprinting by 4:45pm after adequate warm up.

4 minutes of progressive speed running, 3 minutes calm walk, and then a further 4 minutes progressive running. Killed me, it did.

I waited a few minutes and got my breath back and then hit the stepper. I was really ready to come off after ten minutes, but a nice young lay-dee came in to train, so i stuck around. Then again at 15 minutes i was ready to go home, but another bonnie young lay-dee came along, so stay Rob did. This happend several times, thankfully, so i stayed the duration of 30 minutes. A welcome  incentive it was. The sweat was literally pissing out of me.

I came home and had some chicken breast (had no cooked veg, so chicken only it had to be). After a further 15 minutes i couldn't hack it due to pangs, so i had some cottage cheese, nuts and a few strawberries. 

Things that = ace:

1. My waist becoming visibly smaller.

Things that = not so ace (arce ):

1. Being flat sucks proverbial monkey gonads.

I hope i can muster a good push session tomorrow.


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## w8lifter (Aug 12, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> I waited a few minutes and got my breath back and then hit the stepper. I was really ready to come off after ten minutes, but a nice young lay-dee came in to train, so i stuck around. Then again at 15 minutes i was ready to go home, but another bonnie young lay-dee came along, so stay Rob did. This happend several times, thankfully, so i stayed the duration of 30 minutes. A welcome  incentive it was. The sweat was literally pissing out of me.
> 
> ...




....and you think Lyle is the funniest on the net ...LMFAO!!!


----------



## LrdViperScrpion (Aug 12, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Oh, and as camp as this sounds, i have noticed visible improvements in my skin (especially my face which was/still is quite bad for acne), hair and finger nails (if only i'd stop biting the fuckers and let them grow).



Really? Biotin has improved acne problems for you.  Wow, I need to try that, as my face looks like sh*t due to acne.


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## Robboe (Aug 12, 2002)

It has helped, aye, but don't expect miracles.


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## Robboe (Aug 13, 2002)

I have been really drained for most of today at work. I'm gonna look at my diet again in a bit and make sure i'm taking in enough fat. It may, however, just be the cardio taking it's toll, since i'e really just suddenly introduced it in quite a quantity all at once after not really doing cardio much at all during my last bulk (if at all).

I did muster a decent push session. I did feel like i got the job done, although my workout was a little different than usual. If i had done my usual training i doubt i'd have progressed much, if at all on most exercises. But progression is not my priority when cutting - retaining is.

Here's a quick workout summary:

BB Bench: 3 sets, all just shy of failure.
Slight inclined DB flyes: 2 sets, both shy of failure.
Weighted dips: 1 set with 2 drop sets (for heart rate elevation more than anything).

CGBP: 2 sets, first set with 3 fucking forced reps that i DID NOT WANT, but the spotter is the guy's PT and he's a cool guy and i didn't have the heart to tell him i didn't want them, which is really dumb of me. I should have told him before the set not for forced reps. The second set i lowered the weight and went for higher reps without a spotter.

Side laterals: 2 sets, the second with 2 drop sets.

I like drop sets for heart elevation a lot right now.

My hams are really quite sore today, so i'm unsure whether to do morning carido tomorrow, or wait until the evning and do it then, or if soreness is still bad, have a day of rest. Maybe tonight's carb up will help me decide.


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## w8lifter (Aug 13, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> I like drop sets for heart elevation a lot right now.



Me too!

Why don't you post your diet right now Chicken Baby...just so we can see the whole plan


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## Robboe (Aug 13, 2002)

It's in the first post.


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## w8lifter (Aug 13, 2002)

Ha! Oh yeah


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## mama's boy (Aug 13, 2002)

TCD, 

Why no Overhead Press? Good thread, BTW.


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## Robboe (Aug 14, 2002)

I dropped them for a while about 2-3 months ago. I see no need for them right now. My anterior deltoids get enough work on presses and dips and i do side laterals for the medial head.

On back day i usually do 1 set of rear flyes for posteroir head, if i think it's warranted. On days where i do a bit higher volume and more rows i won't do any.

When i want them for functional strength i'll start doing them again. As long as my benching and dips are progressing my delts are. 

Ate my third meal at 1:30pm, fell asleep three times during 1 and half hours worth of meetings between 2 and 3:30, left work at 4pm and went straight to the supermarket. Got some food, went home and had some L-tyrosine and 200mg caff (at around 5ish, which may be pushing the mark a bit for such a dose of caff).

I went to the gym round the corner. Initially i wasn't planning to judging on how i felt last night, but what a difference the carb load makes. I had more than my usual 300g though. I added a few potatoes to my steak and rice in my second meal, ate an english muffin with some edam cheese while i was waiting for my rice to cook, and i ate a banana after my oats; so we're talking closer to 400g carb load last night. I felt my heart beat in my head - and enjoyed it, sadistically. I felt really warm all night too and it carried over this morning, which was nice. A carb up definately aids the thyroid, and a larger carb load was just what the doctor ordered, methinks.

Anyhoo, i digress...

3 minute warm up walk on the tready.

6 minutes progressive running, starting at 7.5mph working up to 10mph every minute. (notice how i manage 6 minutes now? Since i've gradually worked my way up. I do this for weights as well, and i suggest others follow if they don't already do so. Unless you're 10+ years in training then progressive overload is by far the most efficient and best way to go about getting bigger and stronger in my opinion. And we all know how high i think of my own opinion ).

3 minute walk.

4 minute progressive running, working up from 8mph to 10mph.

3 minute walk.

2 minutes running, first minute = 8.5mph, second = 10mph.

I felt like adding the third run cause i felt strong for it. And fitter. Like i said, carb loading does a body good.

30 minutes on the stepper, course 1, +2 (just for my own reference so i can increase the intensity every so often).

I was talking to a friend for the whole time and it didn't at all feel like 30 minutes. He's originally from Kashmir, so we talked a lot about the situation over there and such, and the increasing drug use in my weights gym.

After this i was done, but i felt the need to re-pay the favour and spent a further 10 minutes on the bike talking to him.

I got home and ate some chicken at 7pm.

Ate some cottage cheese and nuts at 7:30pm with 400ug vitamin E.


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## Robboe (Aug 15, 2002)

Felt fine today, despite cardio last night.

Did pull just earlier:


4 sets of wide grip chins - the reason for such high vol was as follows:

1st set: +10k - 4.5 reps

Since i got 5 last week, i did this:

2nd set: +15k - 3 reps
3rd set: +20k - 2

Both sets stopping short of failure (prolly by a rep) and then my fourth set:

4th set: +10k - 6

So i progressed after all 

Nice little trick i thought i'd share with you all. Easy way of tricking your CNS. 

Followed it up with 2 sets of BB rows, with a third set having 1 drop set.

Did a quick cable row/CG pulldown superset for some heart elevation and back was done.

2 sets of DB shrugs with the 70k's and i was done.

Not much else to report right now.

I'm gonna go in and do some GPP work tomorrow, and maybe might follow it up with some cycling.


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## Robboe (Aug 16, 2002)

Last meal was at 1:30pm, took 200mg caff and 2g Tyrosine at 4pm (ish) and was doing cardio by 5:30pm.

No GPP today as planned cause my sister wanted me to take her to the local gym for cardio, so i'll do some GPP on another day if i feel like it.

3 minute warm up on tready.

6 minutes running with progressive resistance.

3 minute walk.

3 minutes running with progressive resistance (couldn't muster 4minutes).

3 minute walk.

2 minute sprint.

Waited for 5 minutes and then managed 30 minutes on the stepper. It was hard, but i managed it. 

Got home around 6:45pm and had some chicken breast. I'll eat a full meal in a few minutes (about 7:15pm), including some more chicken breast, cottage cheese and some cashews.

Tomorrow is a busy day - i need to get up for some morning cardio, go to the city centre to get some bits and bobs, including some more L-tyrosine and then i head off down to Hartlepool to me my nana. I haven't been down in a while, so i wanna go see her. She's a ridiculously old aged woman, but she's still got all her marbles and she's a real hoot.

Later that night i go out drinking for a friends birthday. It'll be part of my "carb up", haha.

At least i keep telling myself that. I just gotta remember to get some quality carbs in me before going drinking, and then to restrain myself from eating fatty foods once i'm drinking. I'm also drinking at a new location to me, as far as drinking and clubbing goes. It's at Whitley bay at the coast. Should be fun, although i hear the average age of the "babes" there is about 45  

I may have to stop over at someone's house too, cause the taxi fare home will cost and arm and a leg, which may mean i have to move leg day to the monday night (which i'm not particularly fond of, cause i have push the next day and i don't particularly like doing two large body parts on successive days). We'll have to wait and see what happens.

I also weigh in tomorrow.


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## w8lifter (Aug 16, 2002)

I love reading your journal


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## LrdViperScrpion (Aug 16, 2002)

Sorry, what's GPP?


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## Robboe (Aug 16, 2002)

General Physical Preparedness.


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## Robboe (Aug 16, 2002)

By: Louie Simmons  
       General physical preparedness (GPP) is a term that refers to a degree of fitness, which is an extension of absolute strength. Many don't believe in it at all. Here, I am referring to the people who say if  you want to be good at the powerlifts, just practice the powerlifts. Of  course, this leads others to say that powerlifters are out of shape, and the above-mentioned group is.  
    Many times the ones that advocate only the classical lifts are the very ones that complain that powerlifters are out of shape. We all squat, yet we are not built identically. Some develop large quads, some develop big glutes and hips, and others may have very powerful hamstrings. It's obvious to me that  if one muscle group is developed to a greater degree than another, then the smaller muscle groups are holding back your lifts.  
    What's the answer? You must do special exercises for the lagging muscle groups. But before you can pursue an increase in volume by way of special exercises, you must be in excellent shape. General physical preparedness raises your ability to do more work by special means.  
    There are several ways of raising work capacity. One method that we use at Westside is using the pulling sled for the hips and glutes. We pull the sled with the strap attached to the back of our power belts. We walk with long, powerful strides, maintaining an upright body position, pulling through with the feet, which stresses the hamstrings and glutes. This is common practice for throwers overseas.  
    I learned about pulling from Eskil Thomasson, who is Swedish.  Before he moved to Columbus, he visited Finland to see why so many Finns deadlift so well. Many of these strong deadlifters were lumberjacks. They routinely had to pull paper wood down to the main trail, where the tractors could pick it up.  
    Another style of pulling is with a double handle held behind your back and below your knees. The torso is bent over, and the strides are long. This is great for building the hamstrings. 
    To work the front of the hips and lower abs, attach a strap to each ankle and walk, pulling the sled by your feet. Vasily Alexiev use to walk in knee-deep water for roughly 1000 steps after a work out. This is similar to what we are doing but with the advantage of being able to add or reduce weight, which varies the resistance.  
    For building the outside of the hips and the inside of the legs, position the straps around the ankles and walk sideways, first one way, then the other, left then right, forward and backward. 
    For the quads and front of the hips, walk backward with the strap around the front of your belt.  
    To start this type of work, I recommend doing six trips of 200 feet each. Use only one style of dragging until you feel confident of your ability to include more work.  We do this low body work on the squat day, Friday, and on the max effort day, Monday, plus on the days after (Saturday and Tuesday), using 60% of what was done on the previous day. This contributes greatly to restoration. 
    For legs and upper back, as well as building your grip, try pushing and pulling a weighted wheelbarrow. This has had a great effect on my knee that suffered a patella tendon rupture. I thank Jesse Kellum for this exercise. He used his for knee rehab for pro-football players. Pushing the wheelbarrow up a mild grade really increases the work on the lower thigh muscles. Again, start with six trips of 200 feet. Only when you have adjusted to the additional work should you increase the number of trips.  
    Now back to the sled, but this time for the upper body. When George Halbert sees an increase in upper body mass, the process must be working, and that process is pulling a sled with the upper body. There are many methods of doing this. One duplicates the motion of a pec machine. Start with the arms behind your back. Slowly pull your arms to the front. Walk forward slowly and let the tension in the strap pull your arms to the rear, and again pull forward. 
One can also do a front-raise motion with the palms facing down. For the lats, start with the arms behind your back, raise your arms, palms up, like a double upper-cut, by first flexing your lower lats. The farther forward hands go, the more the upper lats are worked. By walking backward you can do rear delt work, upright rowing, and external shoulder work.  
    A good reactive method for the bench press is to hold the straps out in front of you, and as you walk forward and the slack is removed, drive the sled forward in a shock fashion. This is very taxing but is great for reversal strength.  
    Do the upper body sled work for time, not distance. Mix the different styles together. Start with 5 minutes of pulling and work up to at least 20 minutes. I do 30-40 minutes. Walk slowly and don't jerk the sled. Only the reactive bench press method should be jerked.  
    Use the rule of 60%: Start heavy on day 1 and reduce the weight each day for 3 consecutive days. Then go back to a heavy weight the fourth day, e.g., 90 pounds, 70 pounds, 50 pounds, each weight representing one day. The same applies to pulling the sled for lower body power and to the wheelbarrow.  
    This work will greatly increase  your physical ability to train as well as work as restoration. This style is resistance work for those seeking  greater overall strength, power- and  weightlifters, football players, or anyone that needs to raise work capacity to reach a higher level of excellence, which is anyone who took the time to read this article. But are there different routes to this type of work? Yes.  
    GPP work is very common in track and field overseas, but is still very much overlooked in the United States. 
    An experiment was conducted at The University of Pittsburgh.  Head strength coach Buddy Morrison brought in a sprint expert, John Davies, who is very well versed in GPP work for running. John works with many pro players and has consistently lowered their 40 times. While his GPP work consists of  weightless drills, such as jumping jacks, line hops, mountain climbers, and shuffle splits, it perfects running and jumping skills in addition to lateral speed. As John simply puts it, "I have never met a North American Athlete, from the major team sports, that the inclusion of this work will not cause a remarkable change in their optimum performance. Simply, without this solid base, substantial gains are limited and success is restricted to those more genetically gifted.... The median improvement in 40 yard dash times over eight weeks was .25 ??? This work is not for the weak of heart as the overall work volumes are enormous."  
    John Davies' training, as mine, is regulated up and down in a wave fashion to ensure restoration and to raise work loads. 
    If you are not after the highest possible level of power and speed, don't waste your time. But if you want to call out "Who's next?", like the immortal Goldberg, give this a try.


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## LrdViperScrpion (Aug 16, 2002)

Wow, awesome post, thanks TCD.


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## w8lifter (Aug 16, 2002)

Way cool....so what exactly do you do for GPP?...or did I miss that too?  lol


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## Robboe (Aug 17, 2002)

I posted this in the stubborn fat thread:



> "You could very easily do some sort of GPP workout for 15-20 minutes: light weights, high reps (12-20 region, no where near failure though remember), short rest periods for your entire body. Not only can this potentially aid in your heavy resistance training, but it's much more fun to do then HIIT running.
> 
> Here's a short program i do if i'm doing an entire body workout, although i do sometimes just go by what i fancy doing on the day - usually exercises that i don't usually do, like i said, it makes it fun.
> 
> ...



I weighed in 2lbs lighter this week, at 14st 6lbs, which is 202lbs.

Got up today at 10:30, took ECA (yes, took the E today, despite what Lyle says) and 2g L-Tyrosine.

Had a green tea while waiting and hit the gym by 11:15am. It would have been 11am, but i had to sort out my membership to that place, chanign my membership from 'induction' to 'full', whatever the fuck that means. basically, i pay less to use it now.

3 minute warm up.

5 minutes progressive running

4 minute walk.

2 minutes sprint.

2 minutes walk.

2 minutes sprint.

I did this just last night remember, can't expect to progress everytime.

30 minutes on the stepper, which proved rather easier than last night. From this i can derive that either: 1. E aids aerobic work more than anaerobic work OR 2. me forgetting to up the stepper program by 2 makes a LOT of difference. I somehow htink it's the former.

The E really made me sweat buckets too.

Here are some random thoughts from the stepper:

1. I hope to god they find Holly and Jessica alive (i was watching sky news on the stepper TV).

2. Skateboarding looks painful when you come off.

3. Surfing looks cool.

(numbers 2 + 3 are from me looking at the TV on the stepper next to me which had on Ex TV, which rocks, incidentally).

4. 9/11 was in my head. On that day i was on the exact same stepper in that very same gym watching coverage of events on sky news, so it broguth some memories back.

5. If you have any questions or queries to why i do certain things that i haven't already explained then feel free to ask. I'm not gonna bite anyone's head off in this thread. I'm trying to keep it as professional as possible actually. If you do have a question, i can't guarantee i'll have an answer, but i'll do my best to find out for you.

6. I'm really sad for thinking of an online journal when doing cardio.

7. I hope i don't get too drunk and end up scoring with an old biddy tonight...


----------



## Dr. Pain (Aug 17, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why are you called 'The Chicken Daddy?" 



Dp


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## Robboe (Aug 17, 2002)

Not 100% sure, but i've come to this conclusion:


"Fuck knows".




Way to keep it professional Rob...


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## Dr. Pain (Aug 17, 2002)

Thanks....thought so 


DP


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## w8lifter (Aug 17, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Not 100% sure, but i've come to this conclusion:
> 
> 
> ...




I thought there was a story to it


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## Robboe (Aug 18, 2002)

There was but it's from years ago and i've forgot it now.

Well, i ate a shit load last night. and drank a lot of frosty beverages.

I'm not gonna say much more than that, other than me and John Smith are very well acquainted now.

God, i just remembered i even fell asleep at the bar too.

We were at the aeroclub, which is the old terminal for newcastle airport years and years ago. It was quite small like. It looks onto the airfield so we were watching the planes land and take off, which was quite cool.

So i woke up this morning sweating from the heat and with my heart beat in my head (a feeling i hate with a passion).

It felt like no matter how much water i drank i was still dehydrated.

I pulled myself together and went to the gym. Didn't do my usual workout, don't think i could muster it really.

Squats: 4 sets of 4. 
SLDLs: 2 sets of 2, 1 set of 6.
Hack: 4 sets of 4 (with a progressive weight).

3 sets of high rep speed seated calf raises and then 2 sets of standing calf raises.

Did some abs too, 2 sets of cable crunches.

Also note that none of these sets were to failure. I stopped just shy on all sets, except maybe the third set of the speed seated calf work.

That is actually quite high volume for me.


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## Dr. Pain (Aug 18, 2002)

Any "Old Biddies"  receive a "Speed Set?" 

DP


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## Robboe (Aug 18, 2002)

lmao.


Actually, i didn't go to the coast, we changed plans and we're going there next sunday for the bank holiday weekend instead.


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## w8lifter (Aug 18, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> There was but it's from years ago and i've forgot it now.



Likely story....*searches WBB*


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## kuso (Aug 18, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by w8lifter *_
> 
> 
> Likely story....*searches WBB*




Make sure to post it when you find it


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## Tank316 (Aug 18, 2002)

great thread, really enjoying it. where do you get your dex and malto from?


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## Robboe (Aug 19, 2002)

Just flying on to update this bad boy.

Tank, dextrose from a pharmacy in England called 'Boots'. Dunno if you have it over there? It costs like £1.50 for 1kg, which is like $2.50 or so American dollars.

The malto is just some of the dorian Yates approved, cause my gym sold me it on the cheap.

I got home from work today and went to the library, and boy does my local one suck camel dick.

I went in for some real-life forensic books, and they had arse-all.

I was also hoping for some good endocrinology books or something on neurotransmitters, but they had toss-all.

To sum up how shit my local library is: they have no immediate copies of 'The Hobbit' or 'The Silmarillion', the bastards. I've had to order them in.

Anyhoo, got to the gym even later than usual for the cardio.

Took 200mg caff and 2g L-Tyrosine.

5 minutes sprinting with progressive pace.

2 minutes walk.

3 minutes progressive sprinting.

3 minutes walk.

2 minutes sprint.

5 minute wait.

30 minutes on the stepper.

Sweat was, again, rining out of me.

Small piece of chicken upon my return and then a full meal about 20-30 minutes later.

I missed the newcastle match on TV tonight (we won 4-0) cause my cousin's kid is up. She's totally lush, but she's also a right little madam when she wants to be. We took her down to the Millenium bridge and then for a MacDonald's (not to worry, i resisted )

Incidentally, i've ordered some Yohimbine HCL caps from the US. They should hopefully be here in a few days. I'll give y'all some info on it, if you're unsure of what it is or how it works.

Hopefully i'll be able to go into some good detail about fat receptors (alpha and beta), but i just gotta get it all totally clear in my head first 


I need to try and get some more ephedrine too. Which is gonna be annoying.


Hey, out of interest, has anyone bought and read the 'Bromocriptine' ebook by Lyle McDonald from qfac at all?

If so, what's it like?

I really wanna read it, but id rather have a hard copy and it's done in flash so cuting and pasting is out of the question, unless anyone knows any little tricks?


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## Dr. Pain (Aug 19, 2002)

TCD, I'm very interested in your analysis of the Yohimbine HCL.  IMO it works best on gynoid fat distributions where there is preponderance of A-2 receptors.  My recollection is poor concerning certain insulin issues, w8 may still have my resources on those.

But I wanted to tell you that since you  are big on self-experimentation....when your BF levels are low enough...I am in possession of Dan's "Spot Reduction" formula based on Yohimbine.


DP


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## Robboe (Aug 20, 2002)

Well i got quite a bit on the andrenergic system and fat receptors (since they're my new 'thing' - i seem to be obsessed with the whole fat burning thing right now).

And you're right about the a-2 receptors.

I'll post a lot more later, but i gotta go lift some weights now.


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## Yanick (Aug 20, 2002)

This was posted by DP a while ago on ABC, i think i was the only one that actually read it though, lol.  A lot of it went right over my head because i was new to learning all about this stuff.  I started to read it again and a lot of it makes perfect sense now.  Not an article for a beginner, IMO.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Introduction 
Loss of body fat has become an obsession for Western society. Accordingly, overweight and obesity are associated with high risks for various pathophysiological conditions and a lower mortality rate. Approaches to body fat loss vary according to genetic and environmental factors. Moreover, regulation of both energy intake and energy expenditure can be moderated in several ways. The autonomic nervous system contributes to maintenance of homeostasis in the body by way of the sympathetic nervous system. This system stimulates energy mobilization and utilization in many tissues. Therefore, manipulation of the sympathetic nervous system may change body composition. This article will examine the role of fat tissue metabolism, the sympathetic nervous system, and a pharmaceutical approach to fat loss. 
The physiological role of the sympathetic nervous system (SNS) is a major target of study for modulation of body weight and composition. The principal role players in the SNS are hormones called catecholamines and the adrenergic receptors (adrenoceptors) upon which they act. Aside from insulin, the catecholamines are the primary regulators of fat breakdown in cells by way of stimulation of adrenoceptors on the cell membrane. Activation of these adrenoceptors produces differing responses in the cell depending on receptor type, subtype and tissue. Two types of adrenoceptors, alpha- and beta-adrenoceptors, differentially stimulate or inhibit lipolysis and provide for dual control mechanisms within the fat cell. 
A host of drugs that manipulate the SNS to reduce body fat have appeared and disappeared in the last few decades. Bryan Haycock published an article on Meso-Rx examining the role of beta-adrenergic receptors in fat loss and diet drugs that increase lipolysis (Pharmacological Approaches to Fat Loss: Targeting Beta-Adrenergic Receptors, July 1998, Vol. 1, No. 2) at the b -receptor and post-receptor levels. This article will examine the role of alpha-adrenoceptors and an alternative pharmaceutical approach to fat loss. 
The first part of this article will discuss adrenoceptors and their function so that readers may comprehend the dual adrenergic regulation of lipolysis. The lipolytic process was discussed in Bryan's article (see above), but will be summarized here to acquaint those who have not read Bryan's article. The second installment of the article will examine the role of alpha2-adrenoceptors in adipose and other tissues and the ways they influence regulation of lipolysis. Finally, we will see how yohimbine, an alpha2-adrenoceptor antagonist can be of use in the pharmacological approach to fat loss. 
Lipolysis Revisited 
Adipose tissue, commonly called body fat, serves several functions in the body such as in storage and provision of energy, insulation, and mechanical support as in the sole of the foot or in the palm of the hand. The majority of human adipose tissue is metabolically active, although some depots appear to serve only a mechanical function and may be metabolically inactive (1). Adipose tissue is the body???s largest store of energy, accounting for 10-15 kg in a non-obese young adult. Supplying 3500 kcal per pound, 15 kg of body fat stores 135,000 kcal. Adipocytes (fat cells) regulate the energy balance of the entire organism by storing excess energy intake as triacylglycerols and releasing stored energy when demands are not met by other means. Each adipocyte contains roughly 0.04-0.06 ug of fat which accounts for ninety percent of the weight of adipose tissue (2). 
Lipolysis is the process of breakdown and release of triacylglycerols (TGs) in adipocytes and is intensely regulated. Many physiological factors stimulate and inhibit the breakdown of TGs into free fatty acids (FFAs) and glycerol and their mobilization into the bloodstream to be used as fuel by other cells and tissues. Feeding, fasting, exercise and stress have pronounced and rapid effects on lipolysis via hormones and other endogenous substances (see Table 1). As well, clinical conditions such as diabetes and obesity are associated with alterations in lipolysis. Age and gender are also of importance. 
Table 1. Some physiological modulators of lipolysis in humans. 
State Effect on lipolysis Regulating hormones 
Fed Inhibits Insulin by activity on HSL 
Fasted Increases Increase in catecholamines and decrease in insulin 
Exercise Increases Increase in catecholamines; decrease in insulin 
Age Decreases Reduction in SNS activity and catecholamines 
Gender Varies Sex hormones; regional deposit variations 
Insulin and the catecholamines are the main regulatory hormones of lipid mobilization. Insulin is the major antilipolytic hormone because of its effects on enzymes within the adipocyte. Insulin also enables the entry of glucose into the cells by inducing glucose transporter activity. Glucose serves as the backbone for the glycerol molecule to which fatty acids attach and form TGs. The catecholamines serve a dual function of stimulation and inhibition of lipolysis. This nature of this duality will be discussed further so that the reader may understand how lipolysis is tightly regulated. 
Hormones such as prostaglandins, adenosine, growth hormone and cortisol have permissive regulatory effects. Endocrine effects are due to circulating hormones, such as testosterone. Others are paracrine and autocrine effects from hormones secreted by the cell itself or from neighboring cells (18, . These mechanisms will not be discussed in depth here except for their role in mediating catecholamine-induced lipolysis. 
We must first become acquainted with fat cell biology to comprehend the regulation of fat loss. Lipogenesis and lipolysis can be considered the Yin and Yang of adipose tissue metabolism. Lipogenesis is the process of fat accumulation and lipolysis is that of fat breakdown and release into the bloodstream. Bryan Haycock described the various systems in his article which readers are referred to for an in depth explanation. To avoid redundancy, the systems will be summarized here but with a greater examination of the adrenergic control via the adrenoceptors. 
Triacylglycerol Storage 
When carbohydrates are ingested, plasma glucose levels rise causing a release of insulin from the pancreas. Circulating insulin activates enzymes (acetyl-CoA carboxylase and fatty acid synthase) by inducing phosphorylation. This catalyzes the formation of fatty acids from glucose. Fatty acid uptake by the adipocytes results from activity of lipoprotein lipase (LPL). In addition to other hormones, insulin increases synthesis and activity of LPL; catecholamines, growth hormone and testosterone inhibit LPL. Differences in LPL activity partially account for regulation of adipose tissue distribution in various deposits. This may partly explain the typical diversity in adipose tissue deposition in regional deposits and between the two genders (e.g. upper body versus lower body, visceral versus subcutaneous deposits). 
As mentioned previously, insulin enables entry of glucose into the cells via induction of glucose transporter activity. Glucose is then metabolized to glycerol where, along with fatty acids in the cell, they serve as substrates for TGs and are stored. Among other lipogenic effects, insulin stimulates the esterification process within the adipocyte, where three fatty acid chains attach to a glycerol molecule to form a TG. The primary action of insulin involves dephosphorylation of hormone sensitive lipase (HSL), which deactivates the enzyme. As will be described shortly, HSL catalyses the rate-limiting reaction in TG breakdown. Consequently, insulin is frequently referred to as the anti-lipolytic hormone. 
Adrenoceptors and Lipolysis 
Lipolysis is the process where TG molecules are hydrolyzed to fatty acids and glycerol. These products are then moved out of the fat cell by passive diffusion, carried across the cell membrane by protein transporters, or, in the case of FFAs, re-esterified back into TG within the fat cell or others nearby. The products are circulated through the bloodstream to various tissue and organs to serve as a source of fuel. The entire process is tightly regulated by numerous factors of which only the key players will be addressed here. 
Recall that the rate-limiting enzyme for lipolysis within the adipocyte is HSL. Likewise, insulin and the catecholamines regulate HSL activity. Activation of HSL is regulated by a series of metabolic processes in the cell mediated by hormones and receptors in the cell membranes. Hormones secreted by glands or neurons, circulate and bind to receptors. This hormone/receptor complex initiates events that begin in the cell membrane, progress to the cell interior and end in a physiological response that may be inhibitory or stimulatory depending on receptor type and subtype. This is commonly called the second messenger system. The hormone itself is the first messenger which stimulates production of a second messenger that acts on systems within the cell to produce a cascade of events leading to the effect of the hormone. The series of steps and signals that take place linking the receptor and the effects within the cell is called signal transduction. As in most biological systems, negative feedback may inhibit the events of this interaction. To fully understand the complexity of this system, we will look at the cascade beginning with the receptors. 
The physiological response by endogenous compounds or pharmaceuticals relies on their interaction with receptors in or on a cell. As we will see in the second installment, catecholamines and drugs (ligands) act upon these receptors and regulate metabolism in adipocytes and other cells. Some drugs, such as yohimbine, distinctly target a specific receptor to mediate a desired (or undesired) response. Let us examine what transpires when a ligand binds with a receptor. 
Receptors are classified based on their structure and mechanism of action. The two classes of receptors are those that reside in the cell (intracellular receptors, such as steroid receptors) and those that span the cellular membrane and transfer an extracellular signal to an intracellular response. The G-protein-coupled (guanine nucleotide regulatory proteins) receptors are a large family of cell-surface receptors. The major receptors in the adipocyte membrane are the adrenergic receptors, or adrenoceptors, and are members of the G-protein family. Their most common feature is the long polypeptide chain that loops back and forth through the membrane seven times. This chain is physically and functionally linked to G proteins within the cell. 
The catecholamines norepinephrine and epinephrine serve as the first messengers by binding to the adrenoceptors and stimulating the cascade system described above. The signal transduction depends on the type of adrenoceptor of which there are two types: alpha- and beta-adrenoceptors. These are further subtyped depending on structure, pharmacological response and second messenger. The alpha2- and beta-adrenoceptors share the same second messenger: cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP). The alpha1-adrenoceptors??? second messenger is calcium or phosphatidylinostiol and has less significance in lipolysis. 
The heterogeneity of the adrenoceptors on the adipocyte offers a dual control of lipolysis by differential recruitment by the catecholamines. This is based on their relative affinity for the different subtypes. Lipolysis is mediated primarily by three beta-adrenoceptors: beta-1, beta-2 and beta-3 (b 1, b 2, and b 3, respectively). Stimulation of the alpha2-adrenoceptor (a 2-adrenoceptor) is anti-lipolytic. That is, its activation inhibits lipolysis within the cell. To understand this dual regulation, let us take a look at the cascade mechanisms activated by surface cellular adrenoceptors. 
G-coupled protein receptors, such as the adrenoceptors, link with G proteins just inside the cell membrane. The G proteins consist of three subunits with different binding and characteristic effects. This is commonly called the G protein effector system. When either of the catecholamines bind to an adrenoceptor on the adipocyte, it causes a conformational shift that activates one or more of these G protein subunits. Specificity of the hormonal response is regulated by one of the subunits coupling to different effector molecules within the cell. This specific coupling activates a cascade of signals within the cell ultimately leading to a physiological response. 
The two families of the G-proteins that are involved with control of lipolysis are Gs and Gi. Beta-adrenoceptors couple with the Gs form and thereby activate adenylyl cyclase (AC), the key enzyme which produces cAMP. HSL, the enzyme that catalyzes breakdown of TGs, is regulated by cAMP. Therefore, activation of AC initiates metabolism of TGs. 
As stimulation of the beta-adrenoceptors can be thought of as the "on" switch for lipolysis, the a 2-adrenoceptor can be considered the "off" switch. a 2-Adrenoceptors have been less studied than the beta-adrenoceptors; however, they are known to be linked to the Gi protein subunit complex. Activation of the a 2-adrenoceptor attenuates the production of cAMP by its inhibition on AC. The exact mechanism of this inhibition is not clearly understood. Several theories have been presented; the currently accepted is the dissociation of the subunits of the proteins from the Gi-protein complex, thereby inhibiting further transduction of the signal to AC (3, 4). 
Recall that TGs are the lipid forms of energy stored in adipose tissue. Catecholamine-adrenoceptor mediated stimulation of AC promotes elevation of cAMP and, in turn, increases activity of cAMP-dependent protein kinase A (PKA). PKA activates HSL by phosphorylation and its translocation to the lipid droplets of TGs. Activated HSL breaks down TG to diacylglycerol (DG) and monoacylglycerol. Monoacylglycerol lipase (not under hormonal control) then hydrolyzes DGs to free fatty acids and glycerol. The net products of the breakdown of one TG are three molecules of fatty acids and one of glycerol. 
Glycerol passively diffuses through the cell membrane into the extracellular fluid and bloodstream. The free fatty acids may have several fates. A portion of the liberated FFAs remains in the adipocyte to be re-esterified back to TG within the cell. The remaining are carried across the membrane by a transport protein (5) into the extracellular fluid and pass into the bloodstream, or they can be taken up by surrounding adipocytes and re-esterified into TGs. The fate of free fatty acids after TG breakdown are determined by a number of factors which will be discussed in detail in Part II. 
Lipolysis is largely controlled by the amount of cAMP within the cell. Other hormones affect lipolysis at the post-receptor level by acting on specific enzymes or cofactors to increase cAMP or inhibit re-esterification of the FFAs. They will not be discussed in this article except where necessary. 
Interplay of b - and a 2-adrenoceptors 
An examination of the role of adrenoceptor affinity for the catecholamines will elucidate the beta/a 2-adrenoceptor interplay in regulation of lipolysis. Recall that the adrenoceptor population on adipocytes is heterogeneous. That is, there is a mixture of a 2???adrenoceptors and the subtypes of beta-adrenoceptors; the number and density of each varies among deposits of adipose tissue. The relative proportions of each greatly determine the biology of the adipose tissue. Brown adipose tissue (BAT), which is the major site of thermogenesis, which maintains body temperature, has a higher density of b 3-adrenoceptors than the other beta-adrenoceptors. The b 1- and b 2-adrenoceptors undergo desensitization and downregulation quickly, whereas the b 3-adrenoceptors do not. Although the metabolism and role of BAT is still controversial, it has been proposed that the b 3-adrenoceptors are essential for continuation of catecholamine responses under increased or sustained sympathetic activity (6). 
The heterogeneity of adrenoceptors varies among species, gender, and deposits of adipose tissue. This topic in itself could easily constitute another article, but will be summarized here. Studies indicate that, of the species examined, human adipose tissue contains the highest density of a 2-adrenoceptors (7). Men and women display regional differences in lipolysis mostly due to varying populations of the adrenoceptors. Non-obese women generally have more subcutaneous fat in the gluteofemoral area (buttocks and thighs) than other areas. Non-obese men generally have a uniform distribution of subcutaneous fat. Obesity, however, exhibits pronounced gender differences. Obese women tend to accumulate fat in the gluteofemoral and lower abdominal areas. This is commonly called a gynoid pattern of fat distribution. Obese men typically accumulate fat in the subcutaneous abdominal area, which is called an android pattern. The exact causes of these gender differences in regional adiposity are neither absolute nor fully understood. 
Hormones such as testosterone and estrogens are known to affect adrenoceptor gene expression. Studies with other species demonstrate that androgen administration increased a 2-adrenoceptor expression in intra-abdominal adipose tissue in hamsters. The same up-regulation of a 2-adrenoceptors has not been yet demonstrated in human males (8, 18). Conversely, in studies with humans testosterone administration up-regulated beta-adrenoceptors, especially in the abdominal region (9). Estrogen may have a role in the paracrine control of adipocytes, although the exact mechanisms are not clearly understood (10, 11). 
Body fat also differs among regional deposits due to differences in metabolic activity. Subcutaneous body fat comprises about 80% of all adipose tissue (12). Visceral adipose tissue surrounds the stomach and the intestines, is drained by the portal vein and has direct access to the liver. Activity is highest in the visceral region where more fat is mobilized during times when there is a need for rapid energy supply, such as during physical exercise or lactation. Metabolic activity is lowest in the gluteofemoral area followed by the abdominal subcutaneous deposits. catecholamines are most active in the visceral area, followed by the subcutaneous abdominal and gluteofemoral areas. These regional variations are partially due to differences in adrenoceptor populations as well as blood supply (13, 14). 
In vitro and in vivo studies show that adrenoceptor interplay accounts for the potency of catecholamine action and may be partly responsible for gender and site differences in lipolysis (13, 5, 14). Beta-adrenoceptors follow the order of expression: visceral>abdominal subcutaneous>peripheral subcutaneous, which includes gluteofemoral adipose tissue. a 2-Adrenoceptors follow the opposite order. Indeed, women generally have larger deposits of adipose tissue in the buttocks and thighs because of a higher number of a 2-adrenoceptors and reduced number of b 1- and b 2-adrenoceptors. Later discussion will elucidate how these site-specific differences in adrenoceptors affect regional fat mobilization. 
The main factor associated with the preponderance of a 2-adrenoceptors is the increase in fat cell size (15, 16). Studies determined that gluteofemoral adipocytes in women are larger than those in men, thereby contributing to a higher a 2-antilipolytic effect of the catecholamines in gluteofemoral sites (15). The inverse has been observed in subcutaneous abdominal adipocytes in men (14, 17). Although the association has not been confirmed, it appears that this may be governed by sex hormones at the post-receptor level. Cell swelling and short-term modifications of cell volume could also affect metabolism and gene expression in the adipocytes. Therefore, fasting and cold exposure induce a reduction in fat cell size and a concomitant decrease in a 2-adrenoceptor binding sites (18). 
The influence of obesity and fat deposits on lipolysis is not fully understood. However, an increase in fat cell size and cell number, such as seen in obesity and in aging, will increase the density of a 2-adrenoceptors and hinder weight loss attempts. 
Regional variations in insulin receptor affinity and in post-receptor signaling contribute to site and gender variations as well (14, 19). In addition to their proposed effects on adrenoceptor expression, the sex hormones influence post-receptor mechanisms of lipolysis. Testosterone inhibits LPL although it is not known if this is solely adrenoceptor mediated. Estrogens and progesterone stimulate LPL and preferentially affect the gluteofemoral adipocytes. 
In vitro and in situ studies have demonstrated that a 2-adrenoceptors may be highly significant in their regulatory role in lipolysis. Advanced techniques and pharmacological approaches using selective a 2- and b -agonists and antagonists reveal gender and tissue specific differences in adrenergic control of fat cell biology (14, 20-23). The next installment will discuss various interactions of a 2-adrenoceptors: the SNS, local blood flow, and relative affinity of the catecholamines for adrenoceptors in adipose tissue. Following this, we will consider how a 2-antagonists may fit into the pharmacological approach to fat loss. 

In the previous installment of this article, we discovered the regulatory role of adrenoceptors on lipolysis by action of the catecholamines. This installment examines the relevance of the sympathetic nervous system in mediating levels of catecholamines in the body and the interactions of this system with adipose tissue. The role of a 2-adrenoceptors and a pharmacological approach that mediates these receptors is also discussed. 
The Sympathetic Nervous System and a 2-Adrenoceptors 
It is widely accepted that lipolysis is modulated by the sympathetic nervous system (SNS) and possibly the parasympathetic nervous system (PNS). The SNS and the PNS are the two arms of the autonomic nervous system of the body. The SNS, often called the "fight-or-flight" system, is a network of motor neurons that innervates smooth muscle, cardiac muscle and glands. The SNS mobilizes the body during extreme situations such as stress and exercise. The PNS, sometimes called the "resting and digesting" system, serves to counterbalance the effects of the SNS and conserve energy. The SNS may stimulate a gland to secrete or smooth muscle to contract, whereas the PNS inhibits that action. Generally, the SNS and PNS innervate the same organs; although, the SNS innervates more organs than the PNS. While adipose tissue is innervated solely by the SNS, the PNS may indirectly influence lipolysis. 
Both systems comprise of neurons, and each neuron ends in a terminal synapse. These synapses mediate the transfer of information from one neuron to another or to an effector (target) cell. That information may be in the form of electrical impulses (flow of ions) or chemicals. Certain signals are transmitted while others are blocked. Just inside the terminal are vesicles containing neurotransmitters, the chemical signals. In response to a nerve impulse the neurotransmitters are released from the vesicles into the synaptic cleft, a narrow space between the presynaptic terminal and the postsynaptic membrane of a nerve or an effector cell. Neurotransmitters diffuse across the synaptic cleft and bind to specific receptors on the effector cell. They may also diffuse into the bloodstream or be degraded by enzymes. Some neurotransmitters are taken back up into the presynaptic neuron to be recycled in a process called re-uptake. 
The major neurotransmitter of the PNS is acetylcholine (ACh), which binds to nicotinic and muscarine receptors. The two neurotransmitters of the SNS are acetylcholine and norepinephrine (NE). ACh is degraded quickly by acetylcholinesterase; hence its effects are short-lived. Stimulation of the SNS increases release of neurotransmitters inducing a response in the effector cells, which may be excitatory or inhibitory depending on the nature of the receptor that binds the neurotransmitter. Thus, the SNS regulates energy intake and expenditure according to genetic and environmental influence. 
SNS stimulation increases plasma levels of the catecholamines by inducing secretion of NE from postganglionic terminals and release of epinephrine (E) from the adrenal medulla. Although NE lingers in the synaptic cleft for a longer period of time than ACh, NE has several fates. A portion of the NE diffuses out of the synaptic cleft into the bloodstream. Enzymes such as monoamine oxidase and catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT) degrade a portion of NE. Much of the neurotransmitter is actively transported back into the terminal that released it and recycled. This re-uptake is moderated by a -adrenoceptors. 
a 2-Adrenoceptors are found in the cell membrane of the neuron axon terminals and mediate rate neurotransmitter release. Some evidence shows that a 1-adrenoreceptors may be present on presynaptic membranes as well, but their existence is still disputed (1). When NE is released from the vesicles of the terminals, they come into contact with and stimulate the a 2-adrenoceptors, inhibiting further release of these same neurotransmitters. Such is the feedback system for NE release in the SNS. 

Many pharmaceuticals interact with presynaptic a -adrenoceptors interfering with NE-mediated regulation of NE release and re-uptake. a 2-Antagonists are compounds that block the inhibiting effect of the a 2-adrenoceptors and, therefore, interfere with re-uptake of the synaptic NE. This allows NE to linger longer in synaptic clefts producing excessive stimulation and diffusion of excess NE into the bloodstream. a 2-Antagonists reserpine and yohimbine enhance NE release and inhibit NE re-uptake. 
a 2-Adrenoceptors are present on many tissues and mediate a variety of functions. Pre- and postsynaptic a 2-adrenoceptors found on central and peripheral neural terminals mediate noradrenergic, cholinergic and serotonergic receptors. Recall that activation of these a 2-adrenoceptors inhibits release of neurotransmitters. Thus, blockage of the adrenoceptors will increase neurotransmitter release. As well, a 2-adrenoceptors are located on many other tissues and have important pharmacological implications. Some of these are discussed further when we address use of pharmaceuticals targeting the a 2-adrenoceptors for fat loss and their possible side effects. 
a 2-Adrenoceptor Subtypes 
Receptor-binding studies have demonstrated that several subtypes exist for alpha-adrenoceptors types, depending on species and tissue (2,3). In addition to genetic coding, pharmacological response to agonists and antagonists determine the classifications depending on their binding potency to the receptors. The most common probes used in these studies are agonists, such as clonidine, and antagonists: yohimbine and yohimbine-like compounds such as rauwolscine, corynanthine. Each of these compounds has various binding affinities for the alpha-adrenoceptors types. Some, such as yohimbine, exhibit weak binding to a 1-adrenoceptors as well as high affinity for the a 2-adrenoceptors. 
As mentioned previously, species and tissue differences exist in a 2-adrenoceptor subtypes. For instance, human brain cortex presynaptic a 2-adrenoceptors are classified as a 2A or a 2D (4). Primarily a 2A-adrenoceptors mediate vascular effects, such as changes in blood pressure (5). Whereas, human kidney presynaptic a 2-adrenoceptors are classified as a 2C (6), further binding studies established that human adipocytes express only the a 2A-adrenoceptor subtype (7, 8). 
These a 2-adrenoceptor subtypes are differentially regulated by their affinity for the physiological catecholamines and sensitivity to downregulation. The functional roles for the a 2-adrenoceptors continue to be explored. Pharmaceutical agonists and antagonists are being developed with greater selectivity for the individual subtypes. They may be used as therapeutics for treating glaucoma, hypertension, non-insulin dependent diabetes and as adjuncts to general anesthesia. 
The SNS, a 2-Adrenoceptors and the catecholamines 
catecholamines stimulate the adipocyte adrenoceptors on the basis of their relative affinity for each type of adrenoceptor. These hormones preferentially recruit the a 2-adrenoceptor at lower catecholamine levels than the beta-adrenoceptors, especially in tissues where a 2-adrenoceptors predominate (9,10). Consequently, the a 2-adrenoceptors will be recruited before the beta-adrenoceptors. 
One study demonstrates that a 2-adrenoceptors modulate lipolysis at rest, whereas lipolysis is modulated by the beta-adrenoceptors during exercise (9). During physical activity, increased levels of E in the extracellular fluid maximally stimulate the beta-adrenoceptors and mask the inhibitory effect of the a 2-adrenoceptors. a 2-Adrenoceptors may exert a permanent inhibition on lipolysis, contributing to a tonic inhibitory component influenced by catecholamines on ???basal lipolysis??? (11). In vitro studies support this observation by demonstration that many G proteins have a significant level of basal activity in the absence of an agonist (12). Therefore, the a 2-adrenoceptors could be considered the major lipolysis-regulating adrenoceptor on adipocytes. 
To illustrate the regulatory mechanism of the dual adrenoceptors on the fat cells, let us consider the a 2-adrenoceptor as a ???brake??? on lipolysis in the cell. At rest the a 2-adrenoceptors apply a slight pressure to the brakes on lipolysis even in the absence of an agonist, a compound which binds and stimulates the receptor. A slight rise in extracellular norepinephrine, such as seen in mild SNS stimulation (sitting at the computer typing all day), will increase the number of a 2-adrenoceptors being activated with a small number of beta-receptors activated as well. Since the a 2-adrenoceptors outnumber the beta-receptors in humans, this will apply the breaks to lipolysis harder, decreasing-lipolysis. During exercise, concentrations of NE and E from the SNS and the adrenal gland increase in the blood and fat tissue extracellular fluid. These higher levels of catecholamines increase stimulation of the beta-adrenoceptors, which then overshadow the a 2-adrenoceptor-induced activity. Basically, stimulated beta-adrenoceptors cut the brake cable on lipolysis and start the train of events promoting and increasing fat breakdown in fat cells. 
Adipocytes are only one of the many tissues within the body that have adrenergic receptors. Thus, response to activation of the SNS will vary between tissues depending on the adrenoceptor types present on the cells, the relative proportion and the second messenger system within the cell. For instance, skeletal muscle blood vessel wall cells have both a 1- and b 2-adrenoceptors with the a 1-adrenoceptors lying close to the sympathetic nerve terminals. The b 2-adrenoceptors are on the endothelial surface of the blood vessels. Therefore, SNS activation usually produces predominantly vasoconstriction mediated by the a 1-adrenoceptors, whereas an increase in E activates the b 2-adrenoceptors causing vasodilation. Another important organ with dual adrenergic regulation is the pancreas. This interaction is explained when we examine a pharmaceutical approach that blocks the a 2-adrenoceptors. 
a 2-Adrenoceptors and Blood Flow 
SNS activity has an additional catecholamine-mediated effect on lipolysis in adipose tissue: blood flow. A coordination of local blood flow and metabolism carries away by-products of lipolysis and supplies energy substrates to tissues and organs in times of increased demand. Changes in blood flow can facilitate or inhibit movement of substrates, such as glycerol and non-esterified fatty acids (NEFA), that arise from lipolysis. Consequently, stimulation of the SNS increases lipolysis and blood flow; low SNS activity (such as during rest) inhibits lipolysis and blood flow. However, the increase in blood flow is not in proportion to rising concentrations of NEFA and glycerol. During strenuous exercise, adipose tissue blood flow does not increase sufficiently to remove all NEFAs released by lipolysis (13). A feedback system probably exists; however, it is not well understood. Vascular adrenoceptors that affect vasoconstriction and vasodilation may be responsible for this feedback. Studies using microdialysis have shown that the interplay of a 2- and b 2-adrenoceptors mediate vascular blood flow in adipose tissue (14,15). 
Up until several years ago, in vitro and in vivo investigations on plasma circulating metabolites limited measurements of metabolism in adipose tissue. A technique called microdialysis allows for local manipulation and in situ studies of adipose tissue (16,17). It can be applied to individual subcutaneous deposits enabling investigation of specific-site metabolism. Microdialysis allows infusing adrenergic-active agents, such as beta- and alpha-agonists or antagonists, to manipulate adrenergic control and monitoring adipose tissue metabolites and local blood flow. Recent studies elucidate further the role of the catecholamines on regulation of adipose tissue metabolism, especially pertaining to regional and gender differences. 
E and NE stimulate blood flow in adipose tissue by activation of the b -adrenoceptors on the walls of the blood vessels causing vasodilation. Stimulation of the a 1- and a 2-adrenoceptors, also on blood vessel walls, promote vasoconstriction. The distribution of these two types of alpha-adrenoceptors and their subtypes within the blood vessel walls mediate their sensitivity to vascular controls. Some vascular beds, such as the renal bed, respond primarily to a 1-adrenoceptor modulation (5). Whereas other beds, such as in cutaneous circulation, respond primarily to a 2-adrenoceptors (19,18). SNS regulation of local blood flow in the various adipose deposits may have important implications for lipolysis (20). 
Results from in vitro and in vivo studies have had contradicting results depending on techniques utilized and physiological status of subjects. Without question, in vitro and in vivo results show that a 2-adrenoceptors predominate in the femoral vascular bed (in the lower body) by using various antagonists for the specific alpha-adrenoceptors (21-23). Microdialysis studies confirm a higher concentration of glycerol in gluteofemoral than abdominal adipose deposits possibly due to reduced local blood flow in gluteofemoral sites during resting basal conditions despite lower basal lipolysis rates (14,20). 
Experiments using microdialysis have shown that perfusing adipose tissue with clonidine, an a 2-agonist, promoted an increase in extracellular glycerol concentrations. Vasoconstriction by stimulation of vascular a 2-adrenoceptors may be the primary determinant in glycerol and NEFA mobilization (20,24). Vasodilating agents infused via microdialysis produced a decrease in the removal of glycerol from the extracellular space of adipose tissue (24). The resulting decrease in blood flow may reduce the net removal of lipolysis metabolites from the extracellular fluid of adipose tissue. 
NEFAs produced by lipolysis within the adipocytes may be more sensitive to change in blood flow. Glycerol is water-soluble and diffuses out of the adipocytes to move freely within extracellular fluid. NEFAs are not water-soluble and must be bound to protein carriers to move out of adipocytes and into the intracellular space. Newly NEFAs will therefore linger in the interstitial space surrounding adipocytes and possibly be reutilized (re-esterified) by surrounding adipocytes. Indeed, it has been shown that reduced blood flow in adipose tissue delayed NEFA and glycerol mobilization (25,26). Therefore, vasodilation induced by an antagonist that specifically blocks the a 2-adrenoceptors in the blood vessels of adipose tissue could increase lipolysis metabolite mobilization. 
In vitro and in vivo studies suggest obesity may modify the response to the catecholamines due to differences in fat cell size, adrenoceptor populations and circulation (27-31). Continued investigation is needed to explain controversies in changes of regulatory mechanisms seen in altered physiological states. Additionally, physical exercise modifies changes in adipose tissue response to SNS. Gender differences are apparent during exercise, such as higher glycerol levels in circulating blood supply and in adipose tissue of women than in men. Microdialysis investigations report higher lipid mobilization from subcutaneous abdominal adipose tissue in women (9,32). Explanations for this gender response may be differences in adrenergic receptor population and activity. Glycerol levels in men were enhanced by a -adrenoceptor blockage. However, whether this was induced by direct blockage of adipocyte alpha-adrenoceptors or those of the vascular bed was not examined. 

Thus far, this article has addressed the basic physiology of lipolysis and the interaction of the SNS and alpha-adrenoceptors. As alluded to throughout the preceding sections, manipulation of the SNS will have direct impact on lipolysis. It is useful to remember, however, that insulin is the main regulator of lipolysis. Therefore, as previously mentioned in Part 1 of this article, lowering insulin levels will allow for optimal manipulation of the SNS. Low levels of insulin increase plasma levels of catecholamines, stimulating lipolysis and loss of body fat. The SNS can also be manipulated by pharmaceuticals and naturally occurring substances. We will discover one such approach: mediation of the a 2-adrenoceptors. 
Sympathomimetic compounds mimic the action of the SNS and release NE and E in addition to possessing direct b -adrenergic properties. Examples of these compounds are amphetamines, ephedrine and its various isomers. Isomers are compounds with the same formula but different molecular structure or different spatial arrangements. These differences greatly affect the activity/potency of the compound and the responses they elicit, as we will discover shortly. 
Sympatholytic compounds inhibit adrenergic nerve activity in the SNS and some have direct postsynaptic adrenoceptor-blockage activity. Physiological responses of these compounds depend on several factors: chemical structure, type and subtype of adrenergic receptors (ARs), second messenger system (including G protein complex), and tissue site. Other factors include administration route of the compound, which influences absorption and metabolism, and dosage. To present a detailed discussion of pharmacology is beyond the scope of this article; therefore, only necessary details pertaining to the ensuing discussion are included. 
Considered a sympatholytic, yohimbine has been used in herbal medicine for centuries. Yohimbine is one of a large family of indole alkaloids called yohimbanes. Indole alkaloids are naturally-occurring heterocylic amines derived from botanical sources. Yohimbine is the principal alkaloid found in extracts from the bark of the Pausinystlia yohimbe tree that grows in tropical West Africa and the Congo. It is structurally similar to reserpine and can also be isolated from the roots of Rauwolfia. Typical of many alkaloids, the yohimbanes have diverse pharmacological properties. 
The basic yohimbane molecular structure contains five asymmetric carbons; yohimbine is one of 32 isomers within this family. The yohimbane alkaloids include antagonists that are selective for the alpha-AR. The selectivity of the various yohimbane alkaloids depends on the stereochemical configuration of the five carbon centers. That is, the shape and position of the various components of the compound determine how they interact with the receptors and potency of their response. Not only do they have differential activity at the alpha-AR types (a 1- versus a 2), but also within the subtypes (3,15,33). 
Recall from the previous discussion on the a 2-AR subtypes that differences in their affinity for agonists and antagonists mediate the cell???s response. This interaction of yohimbane compounds and the AR subtypes determine their use as pharmacological tools and therapeutic agents. Therefore, the effects of the various yohimbanes will vary, as we shall see in our examination of the use of yohimbine. 
Synthesized yohimbine and its isomer rauwolscine have been used as pharmacological tools to differentiate the alpha-ARs due to their selectivity as antagonists for the a 2-AR. Another isomer, corynanthine, is used for its selectivity for the a 1-AR. They have served as probes for classification of AR types and to assess a 2 adrenergic functions in man for several decades. Herbal preparations from plant parts, however, have been used as aphrodisiacs and euphorics for centuries. Recently, yohimbine has been promoted as a dietary supplement to enhance athletic performance and fat loss. This and various clinical applications will be examined in this article. 
Early investigations demonstrate the activity of yohimbine as an a 2-antagonist that increases NE release and induces a hyperadrenergic state (33). Pharmaceutical studies show that yohimbine has high selectivity for the a 2-AR and weak affinity for the a 1-receptors. Its isomer rauwolscine has higher selectivity for the a 2-AR with little or no selectivity for the a 1 type. Later tissue and cells studies explained the mechanisms of various effects of yohimbine when administered to humans and other species by revealing the presence of a 2-AR and their functions at several sites within the body. Differential affinity of yohimbine and its isomers for the a 2-AR subtypes may also explain variability in tissue-specific responses. 
Clinically, yohimbine has been administered to induce anxiety in psychiatric patients, orthostatic hypotension and other autonomic failure conditions, adjunct therapy for opiate withdrawal, and male organic impotence (15,34). It is widely used by veterinarians to reverse sedation or anesthesia in animals. Other therapeutical applications currently under research are as a glucose-dispersal agent for treatment of non-insulin dependent diabetes and to treat adverse effects of anti-depressants. 
Yohimbine and Fat Loss 
Since a 2-ARs are present on adipose tissue and inhibit lipolysis, yohimbine has been proposed as a pharmaceutical approach to fat loss. In vitro results demonstrated that E, a non-selective agonist for a /b -ARs, produced less lipolysis than a selective beta-agonist (33). However, when an a 2-antagonist, such as yohimbine, was added, E induced the same rate of lipolysis as the beta-agonist. Clinical investigations report yohimbine administration (0.2 mg/kg total body weight) increases plasma levels of NEFAs and glycerol in obese and non-obese women as well as in men (26,35,36). Yohimbine increased weight loss when used with hypocaloric diets in several studies by preventing an adaptive lowering of the SNS that usually occurs with most calorie-restriction (37). Resting energy expenditure did not change in a group of obese and lean women when administered yohimbine (38). However, exercise energy expenditure in same subjects was significantly potentiated along with accompanying parameter of lipolysis 
Results from many studies conclude that the primary lipid-mobilizing effect of yohimbine is stimulation of the SNS (26,34,35). A beta-antagonist was administered to non-obese and obese subjects 60 minutes before yohimbine. This suppressed the b -AR effect of lipolysis induced by increases in NE levels. Plasma NEFA levels decreased, but plasma levels of NE were unchanged (34). However, yohimbine still had a transient lipid mobilizing effect evidenced by increased levels of NEFA after b -AR blockage (34,35). These results indicate that only a minor part of the lipid-mobilizing effect of yohimbine is attributed to direct blockage of the lipolysis inhibiting a 2-ARs on adipose tissue. 
Discrepancies exist in methodology used in yohimbine and weight loss research. Considering that increases in NE levels after oral yohimbine is dose dependant (39), most studies have shown optimal dosage to be 0.2 mg/kg (8). Some studies have used much smaller dosages with less significant results. Another cause of discrepancy is timing of yohimbine administration. The lipid-mobilizing effects of yohimbine are completely negated when administered with or after a meal (35). Administration of a 2-antagonists such as yohimbine increases insulin secretion during glucose stimulation. This is attributable to the blockage of the a 2-ARs on pancreatic beta-cells and to concomitant stimulation of the pancreatic beta-ARs. Yohimbine was administered to test subjects in earlier studies which caused increased insulin secretion to blunt its lipid mobilizing effects (40). However, in fasting conditions, yohimbine does not increase insulin levels. These results demonstrate the importance of nutritional status when administering a 2-antagonists as lipid-mobilizing agents. 
Studies suggest yohimbine may increase vasodilation in adipose tissue. Subjects administered yohimbine showed significantly increased levels of plasma NEFA when they changed from a supine position to an upright position (26). The increase in NEFA levels observed were probably due to b -AR stimulation of lipolysis and possibly an increase in net outflow of NEFA from adipose tissue due to yohimbine-induced decrease in local vasoconstriction. When nitroprusside, a vasodilator, was infused by microdialysis, extracellular glycerol concentrations decreased and escape of ethanol increased in adipose tissue (20,24). This suggests that the escape of glycerol from the extracellular spaces in adipose tissue can be accelerated by increased blood flow. The peripheral vasodilation effects of many a a-antagonists are known. However, the direct vasodilation effects in adipose tissue by yohimbine will need to be conclusively assessed by techniques such as microdialysis. 
Increased peripheral vasodilation by blockage of the blood vessel wall a 2-ARs may increase systemic distribution of lipolysis by-products. Submaximal-intensity exercise could enhance net lipolysis in combination with yohimbine administration. Microdialysis studies suggest that NEFAs accumulate within adipose tissue during strenuous exercise due to limited transport into systemic blood supply (13). Recall that exercise-induced increases in blood flow does not rise in proportion to NEFA production (41,42). Therefore, the rate of systemic NEFA delivery does not increase simultaneously with increasing intensity of exercise. Accumulation of NEFA in adipose extracellular spaces may possibly exert a feedback inhibition on lipolysis. As well, vasoconstriction may be induced by high concentrations of NEFA or high sympathetic stimulation (43). Increased peripheral vasodilation in adipose tissue effected by a 2-antagonists may enhance removal of lipolysis by-products during low- to moderate-intensity exercise. Additionally, higher systemic transport of NEFA may increase their uptake into working muscles. 
Considering the research that is available thus far, it is conceivable that the optimal plan for administrating yohimbine as a lipid-mobilizing agent would be early mornings after an overnight fast and several hours before breakfast. The relatively low levels of plasma glucose would not stimulate a yohimbine-potentiated increase in insulin that would otherwise negate its lipolytic effects. Utilization of body fat stores would be optimal with low insulin levels and lipid-mobilizing stimulation of the SNS. Conceivably, yohimbine administration could be followed in two to three hours by ingestion of a high-protein, high-fat meal. Protein ingestion will cause only a transient rise in plasma glucose levels with a concomitant rise in insulin secretion. Accompanying dietary fat will slow digestion and absorption of protein in the same meal. Therefore, the resulting insulin spike will only transiently blunt lipolysis. 
Most of the studies with yohimbine as adjunct treatment for weight loss report very few side effects in subjects. However, whatever the therapeutic use, side effects will occur due to the blockage of a 2-ARs on other tissues. Dosage, nutritional status, and general physiological condition of the individual can modify these side effects. Side effects may consist of skin flushing, headaches, and excitement. Men may experience an increase in or prolonged erections possibly due to increase in vasodilation in the penile tissue, which has a high density of a -ARs. 
Few study subjects experienced changes in blood pressure or rise in heart rate. This may be explained by blockage of both vascular a 1/a 2-ARs and minimizes the vascular responses induced by catecholamine release (15,33,44). However, vascular changes have been reported when yohimbine administration is accompanied by exercise. Anecdotally, many people dosing with yohimbine report rapid increase in heart rate during cardiovascular (aerobic) activity. It is wise to monitor heart rate closely when combining the two. 
Some individuals experience profuse sweating and increased salivation at higher doses (45,46). Yohimbine will block the a 2-ARs mediating acetylcholine and effect the cholinergic system as mentioned in the beginning of this article installment. Other side effects may include water retention and increased colon excretion (47). 
Most studies reported that subjects experienced little or no side effects with single oral dosages ranging from 5-20 mg. Those studies basing dosages on bodyweight (0.2mg/kg) also reported few problems with side effects. Yohimbine administration to subjects in psychiatric research induced episodes of anxiety in individuals with pre-diagnosed anxiety disorder (48). Control subjects did not experience similar effects. Central nervous system effects are dose dependent. High oral dosages (40 mg ) and intravenous administration may significantly increase plasma E levels with resulting increase in heart rate and blood pressure (49,50). 
Several contraindications exist that individuals should be aware of when considering dosing with yohimbine. As with most any a 2-antagonist, yohimbine can acutely increase blood pressure in hypertensive patients. It should also not be combined with other drugs that are known to inhibit neuronal uptake or metabolism of NE, such as some anti-depressants. Individuals should also consider the tendency of yohimbine to evoke psychiatric reactions in those who are predisposed to anxiety or panic episodes (51). Yohimbine will act synergistically with ethanol to increase alcohol intoxication by increasing NE turnover albeit through different mechanisms (52). 
Yohimbine Sources 
In addition to other factors listed above, the magnitude and variety of responses to yohimbine depends on source. Pharmaceutical yohimbine is available by prescription in 2.4-mg tablets. Commonly called ???yohimbe???, it is also widely available in over-the-counter herbal formulations and extracts. Anecdotal and personal observations support that responses to administration of herbal formulations and extracts are more varied and pronounced than from pharmaceutical yohimbine hydrochloride. 
Recall from the earlier description of yohimbine that it is the principle alkaloid present in the bark of P. yohimbe. Of the 32 isomers of yohimbane, yohimbine, rauwolscine, and corynanthine are the most studied. While less research is available on the other isomers, several have been isolated and all have similar pharmacological effects with variation in potency and selectivity. For instance, yohimbine and rauwolscine are potent a 2-antagonists, with rauwolscine having more selectivity for the a 2-ARs and less a 1-AR activity than yohimbine, which also has weak a 1-antagonist activity. Conversely, corynanthine and raubasine are selective a 1-antagonists. 
by Elzi Volk


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## Robboe (Aug 20, 2002)

Elzi Volk is a great mind.

I haven't read it yet, but i will in due time. I'm gonna write a 'mini-article' if you will about fat receptors and Y HCL before i read it, so my version may be more 'basic oriented', but will still tell you all you need to know.

I'll do that in a bit, but first:

Push:

BB bench - 2 sets, short of failure. (down one rep from last week).
Weighted dips - 2 sets, prolly hitting failure on each, setting a new PB on the first set.
Slight inclined DB flyes - 2 sets, new PB on second set. Both just shy of failure.

Side laterals - 2 sets.

CGBP - 2 sets, both shy of failure, second set being lighter with more reps.

Decent workout. My ehart rate wasn;t like it has bene in recent workouts, but still good none the less.


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## w8lifter (Aug 20, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> i think i was the only one that actually read it though, lol.



Not true, I've read all of Pain...but thanks for bringing it over!


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## Robboe (Aug 20, 2002)

Ok, this has took me about 90 minutes. A lot of my notes for this were done of the top of my head at work today though, so if you spot anything wrong or mis-typed then please inform me.

And remember, if i seem to contradict myself, it's just that i have stated two diametrically opposed truths, thus making me twice as right 

*Fat Receptors and Yohimbine HCL ??? The Basics*

To begin with, we have the catecholmines, which are epinephrine and norepinephrine (aka adrenalin and noradrenalin respectively), out of which, norepinephrine (NE) is the most potent (And is incidentally the most thermogenic hormone in the body). NE stimulates both alpha-2 receptors (a-2) and Beta-2 receptors (b-2) of adipose (fat) cells. These receptors are called ???adrenergic receptors???, out of which there are only alpha and beta, but both have subtypes 1, 2 and 3 (i.e. a-1, a-2, a-3 and b-1, b-2, b-3). Lipolysis is dictated by which receptors are activated. It is via these receptors that ephedrine (Eph) and caffeine (Caf) exert their effects (and Yohimbine as you shall later read). As mentioned earlier, NE activates (all) these receptors, which is how eph and caf _indirectly_ affect them, because they stimulate the release of NE. 

Activation of the beta receptors (especially b-2) is good because it encourages lipolysis by stimulating NE release. However, activating the a-2 receptors is not so good because they inhibit NE release. Activating beta receptors also increases peripheral blood flow, whereas alpha receptor activation decreases blood flow. ???Stubborn fat??? is stubborn, not only cause the body is striving to keep you alive, but also because of poor blood flow to those particular adipocytes (fat cells). There are also more alpha to beta receptors in stubborn fat, which is quite typical.

The lower the catecholmines level, the more alpha receptor activation will happen, so thermogenesis is significantly nulled and potential ???switched off???. This basically means that for most of the day thermogenesis is quite insignificant. Y inhibits a-2 receptors to some degree (more later), but the a-2 receptors are always trying to reduce lipolysis.

For a brief summary thus far, NE is not selective of what receptors it activates, but for optimal fat burning we want maximum b-2 receptor activation and minimum a-2 activation, even total a-2 inhibition if possible. 

Now for a quick look at NE and how it works.

NE is synthesized in the sympathetic nerves and stored in storage vesicles. When stimulated past a certain threshold by adrenergic drugs such as eph, caf or Y, or even simply by basic exercise the vesicles release NE into the synaptic cleft. It is here in the synaptic cleft that it stimulates the adrenergic receptors. Once exerting it???s effect, about 90% of the NE is taken back up by the sympathetic nerves and re-stored in the vesicles or is metabolised in the mitochondria by monoamine oxidase (MAO) ??? or more specifically (MAO-A). Another mechanism for NE metabolism is when it is taken away from the receptors and metabolised by catechol-O-methyl-transferase (COMT). Incidentally, green tea contains a catechin, called EGCG, which inhibits COMT and thus, prolongs the life of NE in the synaptic cleft allowing more receptor stimulation. But COMT plays a minor role in this compared to MAO, so suppression of it is not as dangerous as MAO inhibition.

Yohimbine is the active part of the herb ???Yohimbe??? and unlike eph, _is_ selective to which receptor it binds to, and fortunately, it selects the a-2 receptor, inhibiting its actions. This is good because it helps maximise NE, which is what we want, since it is the most potent fat burning hormone in the body. By inhibiting the a-2 receptor, it also inhibits any decreases of peripheral blood flow, and if you???re taking something to activate b-2 receptors then you???re increasing blood flow and thermogenesis, thus increasing FFA mobilisation and metabolism of these fats.

One concern of Yohimbine is that it is an MAO inhibitor. As mentioned earlier, MAO is required for metabolism of NE, thus, by inhibiting this you risk some potential risky side effects if combining it with something like EC, including elevated heart rate, increased blood pressure etc??? And if you???re taking it prior to performing cardio (which further increases heart rate) then you could be setting yourself up for a nasty shock.

There are also calls that the best use of Yohimbine is with higher doses, but orally, you risk over stimulation of the CNS, so one method around this is by using the yohimbine transdermally, which does have potential, as the Y goes straight to the fat cells to do it???s job as opposed to be passed around the body systematically before getting to it???s destination ??? and in the process probably killing you with those doses!

Oral yohimbine does leave adequate amounts of the compound in the blood though, and oral supplementation is much cheaper, so it is fine.

For DP, as far as insulin is concerned, insulin actually blunts the lipolytic effects of Y, so taking it in conjunction with a cyclical carb diet or ketosis diet would be ideal. If not, taking it a few hours away from meals involving carbs should still be ok.


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## Robboe (Aug 20, 2002)

I know i missed any ideas or thoughts today, but i tend to think mostly either at work or on the stepper, which, if i do tomorrow, i'll put some down in 'ere.

I do have a few though, including rotating carb loads to benefit different weightlifting sessions to aid each bodypart and performing a light GPP workout at home on those bodyparts which i intend to hit the next day - to increase local blood flow to the area, theoretically distributing the glycogen more in those areas, thereby hopefully increasing weightlifting performance the following day.


And boy wasn't that the longest sentence in the world...


So far, 50g dex, 50g malto, 2 scoops whey, 6g CLA, 1mg biotin.

40 minutes later, 250g oats.

lmao. Can you say 'bloated'?

No rice tonight, i have neither the time nor the patience to cook any.

I'll shove down some more oats in a bit and hit the sack.

I can already feel myself sweating a bit, actually.


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## Dr. Pain (Aug 20, 2002)

Thanks Yanick and TCD! 


w8....you rock! 


DP


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## Robboe (Aug 20, 2002)

update:

150g more oats and i can prolly take some more, but that takes me up to about 372g carbs for this carb load and that'll do me nicely.


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## nikegurl (Aug 20, 2002)

I collect Pain posts!  I was never on ABC so thanks Yanick!


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## Dr. Pain (Aug 20, 2002)

NG, you need a download from my librarian! 


DP


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## nikegurl (Aug 20, 2002)

i did a search of posts by user name over there....it's gonna take a while!  i have a pretty good stash of goodies from your posts here but i'm going to be adding to it!  good stuff DP.  all appreciated.


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## nikegurl (Aug 20, 2002)

hmmm....i think maybe some of your stuff on ABC is gone?  i see the bulking on slow burners (we had that here too) and not much else really.  damn!


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## w8lifter (Aug 20, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by nikegurl *_
> hmmm....i think maybe some of your stuff on ABC is gone?  i see the bulking on slow burners (we had that here too) and not much else really.  damn!



Possibly...are you looking in the archived boards?


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## nikegurl (Aug 20, 2002)

i went to the main site and did a search by user's name.  i'll look for the archived boards - they're kept separate?

thanks, w8!  i like stocking up on the info and good reading stuff.


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## Robboe (Aug 21, 2002)

Went shopping straight after work and so did cardio much later.

Cause of this, i only had 100mg caff and 2g L-Tyrosine, drank a GT and then went to the gym.

3 minute warm up.

5 minute all out.

3 minutes walk.

4 minutes all out.

then 15 minutes on the stepper.

Seems shorter than usual, which indeed it is, but a) i didn't feel quite up to it and b) I would have missed the start of James Bond had i done the full routine.

I'm off to watch the second half now, so thoughts will be added tomorrow, along with an update of my back workout.


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## w8lifter (Aug 21, 2002)

lmao!


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## Robboe (Aug 21, 2002)

You find my lack of energy humerous, mrs?


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## w8lifter (Aug 21, 2002)

No...I find you cutting cardio short for James Bond humourous


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## Robboe (Aug 22, 2002)

Don't diss james, he's the man.

Back:

Weighted WG chins - 2 sets (progressed).

BB rows - 2 sets (progressed).

Cable rows - 2 sets (N/A).

DB shrugs - 2 sets (progressed).

BB curls - 2 sets (N/A, since i've not done bicep work directly for about 3-4 weeks).

Both biceps sets were waay short of failure. 

I've had little steam most of today, not sure why. Maybe cause i swapped my usual breakfast to some strawberries and cream (after tuna for protein, naturally). I think the strawberries may have fucked me over a bit. They tend to do this when i eat them for my 3rd meal too. Maybe it's the sugar in them? Or some other kind of seritonnin compound?

Personally, no clue.

Ah well.


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## Yanick (Aug 22, 2002)

sleep?


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## Robboe (Aug 22, 2002)

Shouldn't be. I get at least 7 hours a night. Sometimes closer to the 8 bracket.


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## Robboe (Aug 23, 2002)

Felt much better for most of the day, until near the end of my working day when i got tired and restless.

Took 2g L-Tyrosine and 200mg caff, drank 2 cups of green tea and went and did some GPP.

squats: 3 sets, 15 reps.

SLDL's: 3 sets, 15 reps (everything was the same, incidentally, for all exercises).

Hammer strength pull down.

BB bench.

Cable row.

Decline cable machine press.

shoulder press.

pressdowns.

Then did 20 minutes on the bike.

Ate some chicken breast.

10 minute sauna.

I'm off to see Gold member soon.

I'll post my thoughts and ideas tomorrow when i may have some more time.


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## FAngel (Aug 24, 2002)

Nice work Rob.  

On the GPP front, Lyle misses out one of the most effective forms which is sled dragging.  If you've got access it to, you'll benefit from it immensely


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## Robboe (Aug 24, 2002)

Actually, the GPP workout i wrote is one that _I_ do, Lyle hasn;t recommended GPP. I did for fun.

I went and did some cardio today:

200mg caf, 25mg (i think) eph, 2g L-Tyrosine. A cup of GT while i waited.

5.5 minutes run.

2.5 minute walk.

4 minute run.

3 minute walk.

3 minute run.

Collapse.

Resusitated, 30 minutes on the stepper.


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## Robboe (Aug 25, 2002)

Well, usually last night would have been a carb up, but since this weekend is a bank holiday weekend (ie we get monday off work over here) there was a plan to go to whitley bay (the place with the "old biddies") to see a band play that we know. Then stick around for a few cheeky ones and then get the metro (read: 'underground', if you're unsure) into the city centre and continue the shennanigans. Thus, i've switched days for my carb loads and am considering my beer-swilling as part of my 'carb load'.

I've been training and such, and waited a bit before starting my carb load today at about 1pm with some decent carbs first and foremost - dex/malto, 2 scoops whey, 6g CLA, 1g vitamin C; i've had a pro-MR MRP that i found in m cupboard (prolly about 4 years out of date knowing me) and i've had a couple of peak body buttermilk flapjacks. Damn nice they were too. Oh, and i've had 4 weetabix. 

The drinking shall commence around the 3pm region.

So today i trained legs without glycogen 

Squats: 2 sets of 2 with my heaviest weight, then 2 sets with descending weight for differing rep ranges.
SLDLs: set a new PB here actually  Did 3 sets.
Hacks: 3 sets, also set a new PB.

So overall not a bad session. 

I still haven't gotten round to explaining my alternating carb loading patterns yet, but it'll come eventually.


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## Robboe (Aug 25, 2002)

Oh, i weighed in yesterday morning too, and am down 1lb, which is trés bien.

And hey, if anyone is interested, my SLDL PB was with 172.5k for 3 good reps.

That's 379.5lbs. I'll have nailed 400lbs by the end of the year.


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## Robboe (Aug 25, 2002)

A) The band were great.

B) I'm pissed as a trooper.

C) i'm eating breakfast ceereal. Mmmm...

D) There talk about going to newcastle race course tomorrow, but i'm not sure if i'm going. If i do it'll be another diet fuck up. But hey...


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## Robboe (Aug 27, 2002)

Well, drunken i was that night. So much so, that when we got out of the taxi home i made a bee-line for the takeaway. Got a naan bread and chips. And once i got home, in a struggle with the stiff porch door i managed to scatter my chips all over the porch floor.

I was irrate.

But scooped them up and ate them anyway.

_THAT'S_ how drunk i was.

Anyway, i left great today, full of energy, which i attribute to re-elevated leptin from the influx of all the carbs i consumed.

It carried over in my workout today too.

I went to a party last night too, but stuck to diet, since i was still a bit iffy from sunday's malarkey.

Today i progressed on bench by a rep from last week, set a new PR on weighted dips and equaled a PR on flyes. I was much pleased.

Side laterals and CGBP seem to be sticking though, but alas...


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## w8lifter (Aug 27, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Well, drunken i was that night. So much so, that when we got out of the taxi home i made a bee-line for the takeaway. Got a naan bread and chips. And once i got home, in a struggle with the stiff porch door i managed to scatter my chips all over the porch floor.
> 
> I was irrate.
> ...


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## Robboe (Aug 27, 2002)

Exactly.

From what little i remember, they tasted really nice too...


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## w8lifter (Aug 27, 2002)

I just had a great visual of a drunken irate Chicken Baby...fuk...too funny


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## Robboe (Aug 27, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by w8lifter *_
> I just had a great visual of a drunken irate Chicken Baby...fuk...too funny




Hahaha, i've just been told by my sister's boyfriend that i was apparently kicking the chips all over once they were on the floor before apologising, telling them i didn't really mean it and then picking them up and eating them.


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## Twin Peak (Aug 28, 2002)

TCD, love the journal.  A most excellent read.  I have a few of questions though:

Why take the caff by itself -- or is that just like me drinking coffee?

Have you traditionally been this low volume?

Why do you rarely post the weights used?  I am curious to see the progression.

Why the aversion to training to failure?

How much BF/weight are you looking to lose?


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## w8lifter (Aug 28, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha, i've just been told by my sister's boyfriend that i was apparently kicking the chips all over once they were on the floor before apologising, telling them i didn't really mean it and then picking them up and eating them.




lmao....even funnier!


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## Robboe (Aug 28, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> TCD, love the journal.  A most excellent read.



Thanks man, I'm doing it as a way to show people on this site the basics of how to go about stuff like this (ie dieting strategies, how to fit diet in with everyday life and upkeeping of your social status etc...)



> I have a few of questions though:
> 
> Why take the caff by itself -- or is that just like me drinking coffee?



Just following Lyle's recommendation for stubborn fat. I wouldn't say i'm at a stubborn fat stage just now, but i'm trying the routine anyway, cause he asked me to. I actually think i'll just use exerts from this journal to send to him, in fact.



> Have you traditionally been this low volume?



You think it's low?

Personally, i think it's spot on.

Obviously when i first started training i was 10 sets for each exercise and all that jazz, but i've been doing this kind of training, probably ever since i first started the 'bodybuilding' chapter of my life. Before then i spent a good long while focusing on cardio and ridiculous training volumes on machines and no free weights etc...



> Why do you rarely post the weights used?  I am curious to see the progression.



Yeah ok, just for you i'll post weights used, but since dieting progression ain't all that evident (although not totally absent).

For your eyes only, here's some lifts that may mean something:

Squats: 160k

SLDLs: 172.5k

Bench: 102.5k (sucky, i realise, but next gain i'll work on it. I had to spend a lot of time using DB's cause of shoulder trouble).

Weighted dips: +43.75k

BB row: currently at 90k, i think, but i've only just started doing these again properly after not doing them for years.

Weighted chin: +15k (another sucky lift, but i've only just started doing them again. Until recently i was using the hammer strength pulldown for my vertical rows, and using somewhere in the region of 150k.



> Why the aversion to training to failure?



Not really an aversion. Some weeks i'll train to and past failure, others i won't. The weeks i stop short of failure, i'll note it. You can usually guess when i've gone past failure cause i'll type my reps as X + 2 (ie 2 forced reps), or + 2 negs (2 negatives). 



> How much BF/weight are you looking to lose?



As much as possible, staying within a 'healthy' region for my setpoint. I see no point in trying to get into competition shape (which i've a doubt i can achieve without drug assistance) when i've no interest in competiton. I want to look good naked, but since i've been a fat bastard pretty much all my life, it's hard - not only getting to where i want to be, but also maintaining. Basically, i set myself 20 weeks of cutting time. I've done 12 so far. In another 8 weeks, wherever i am, is where i'll stop before doing a slow gain (aroound 0.5lbs a week), hopefully keeping any fat gain to a minimum.


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## Twin Peak (Aug 28, 2002)

Without you hating me can you tell me who Lyle is?

I would hope that you believe the volume you are doing is "spot on"; but you must recognize that it is relatively low, the key being relatively.  I believe that I tend toward the low volume side (8-10 sets per BP) but you are even lower.  

Regarding that weights....thanks for the info but what is the conversion to pounds.....I know....us damn americans!

Maintaining has always been very difficult for me as well.  Before I started my bodybuilding chapter my waist was almost a size 48"


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## Robboe (Aug 28, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Without you hating me can you tell me who Lyle is?



Lyle McDonald.

Probably the world's leading fat loss/fat gaining guru.

And possibly the internet's funniest personality.



> I would hope that you believe the volume you are doing is "spot on"; but you must recognize that it is relatively low, the key being relatively.  I believe that I tend toward the low volume side (8-10 sets per BP) but you are even lower.



I used to do 4 sets for large parts max. 2 for smaller ones. How's that? 



> Regarding that weights....thanks for the info but what is the conversion to pounds.....I know....us damn americans!



Multiply kg's by 2.2 to get lbs conversion.



> Maintaining has always been very difficult for me as well.  Before I started my bodybuilding chapter my waist was almost a size 48"



I started this diet at 38", 12 weeks later i'm 34-34.5".

Maintaining a lower setpoint is a bastard. I wish you could reset it.


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## Twin Peak (Aug 28, 2002)

Thanks!


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## Robboe (Aug 28, 2002)

Took 200mg caf, 2g L-Tyrosine and drank two, yes that's _two_ cups of green tea. What can i say? I like green tea.

6 minutes progressive run.

3 minute walk.

3 minute progressive run.

2.5 minute walk.

1.5 minute 10.5mph sprint, after this, the shooting heart pains told me it was time to get off, lol.

Waited a bit and started on the stepper for 30 minutes.

Well, that is the end for cardio for at least a week, cause i'm off down London for a wedding on saturday, and we're setting off on friday afternoon. Not getting back till Sunday evening, so no doubt diet will be totally off for these three days.

My auntie has alziehmers (totally wrong spelling i know, but i'm tired and lazy so kiss my ass) and she's driving my nana round the bend going to her house every 3 minutes. Her husband is being paid to care for her, but he's using the money and going into the bookies and leaver her, the fucker. Anyway, we brought my nana up for a few days to let her get a good night's sleep.

We took her down the fish quay tonight, a region at the mouth of the Tyne where all the fish markets are, for a lemon soul supper. 

And the Toon made it into the champions league! C'mon!

Only eating 5 meals today. I'm not gonna bother with my last meal of the day. Time for bed now, methinks.


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## Duncan (Aug 28, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> Lyle McDonald.
> ...



You, my friend, are obviously a little mistaken by this statement.  I am at least 3x funnier than Lyle McDonald, even on an off day.

Oh, by the way, I have a ?  Do you carb up exclusively on off days?  I have been carbing up on Wed and Sat which just happen to be off days, but I have been sick the past 2 days and am a little off,


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## w8lifter (Aug 28, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> My auntie has alziehmers (totally wrong spelling i know, but i'm tired and lazy so kiss my ass) and she's driving my nana round the bend going to her house every 3 minutes.



See, this is what I like about you Chicken Baby, your ability to be absolutely adorable _and_ insulting in the same sentence


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## Robboe (Aug 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by w8lifter *_
> 
> 
> See, this is what I like about you Chicken Baby, your ability to be absolutely adorable _and_ insulting in the same sentence



I do try.


Duncsy, I'll take your word for it. 

As far as carbing goes, i set it up for saturday nights for two reasons: 1. so i can training legs on sunday mornings with glycogen (since cardio drains them quite a bit) and 2. most nights out usually fall on a saturday, so i can go drinking but still kinda stay on diet.

I then carb up on tuesday evenings, a few hours after chest/tris/delts. Purely because it's mid-week and 3 days after my other carb load.

The good thing about the loads, however, is that they're flexibile in the way that you can just reajust them. ie if i wanted to go out on friday i'd just carb load then instead of saturday and still manage to kinda stay on track.

Two more days on the downcycle isn't gonna make or break your diet. Just carb up when you're ready and up for it and then re-adjust from there.


----------



## Robboe (Aug 29, 2002)

Still no Yohimbine HCL yet, which is kinda starting to pish me off a tad.

Today's back workout:

Wide grip weighted chins: 16.25k [35.75] - 4 (a PR)
16.25k - 3 
dropped: bw - 4

Bw - 5

BB rows: 90k [198] - 6 (eq PR)
90k - 5 
dropped: 80k [176] - 4
dropped: 60k [132] - 5

DB rows: 50k [110] - 8 (on both arms)
50k - 6 
dropped: 36k - 6 (same on both arms)

Kneeling shrugs: 70k [154] - 5

Progression on chins today, which i'm well chuffed about.

I got some Cds today too: 'Vulgar display of power' by Pantera, which i've been after for ages; 'All eyez on me' by Tupac Shakur; and finally 'make yourself' by Incubus. 

I'm quite pleased with all purchases. Especially since i got all three to the tune of 20 notes.

I go down london tomorrow for a wedding on saturday. Diet will be fucked up totally until monday, but i'll try and keep cals low anyway. Except for Saturday, when i'll be the drunkest Usher this side of the pond


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## kuso (Aug 29, 2002)

'Vulgar display of power' is one great workout cd


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## Robboe (Aug 30, 2002)

I love 'walk'.

Anyway, off to London for a few days so you'll not hear from me till either sunday night or monday evening.

Diet will be off (already is actually since i'm eating processed cereal(s)) but i'll try and keep cals moderate.


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## cytrix (Aug 30, 2002)

TCD Do you split your carb ups into 2 meals, as in the body builders NHE eating plan? You are loosing body fat nicely, even though you eat a lot of carbs on youe carb load - I am wondering,m if I could eat mre or should eat more - I stick with 1g/lb lean mass right now, because I am afraid I won't loose  otherwise. What do you think would be a good amount for me? By the way, I LOVE YOUR JOURNAL! I hope you get your Y soon.


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## Robboe (Sep 1, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by cytrix *_
> TCD Do you split your carb ups into 2 meals, as in the body builders NHE eating plan? You are loosing body fat nicely, even though you eat a lot of carbs on youe carb load - I am wondering,m if I could eat mre or should eat more - I stick with 1g/lb lean mass right now, because I am afraid I won't loose  otherwise. What do you think would be a good amount for me? By the way, I LOVE YOUR JOURNAL! I hope you get your Y soon.



Thanks, it's cool you're benefitting from it. It makes these time-taking updates worth it.

I split it into three meals. eventually, i think i'll drop the liquid carbs and just focus on real food. It'll prolly drop my total carb load down to the 220g region, cause there's just so much food you can pack in without feeling natious. Not sure when i'll complete that transaction though, since i'm only doing this for a further 7 weeks, i think.

As far as your carb loading goes, let me get back to you in a few minutes. I got a PM asking about the benefits of carbloads and i think you benefit from reading it. Carb loads actually _assist_ your efforts. Trust me, I'm a doctor* 

Well, London was ace. I've basically had a three day 'refeed'. Friday was a piss-take as far as food consumption goes. I ate a hella lot. Saturday is much of a blur, but i was getting into one of the bridesmaids, that much i remember.

I'm planning on getting my scanner from upstairs so i can post some photos up for you all to glimpse my annoyingly handsome, good self. There are actually some stills from the wedding on the net, courtesy of the official video director, who was constantly in your face. Unfortunately you can't really see me on any of the given stills, so there's little point linking them. I also have some other photos from recent outings and events that i'm gonna try and scan in. We'll see how it goes (ie we'll see how lazy i am).

Today my cals aren't gona be high as such, but they're certainly not in dieting region. Nor have i been on NHE for these days, too many carbs. But i'm back to the grind tomorrow diet wise and i re-start my campaign with a treat of squats and stiffs. What a beautiful combo.

More in a bit.

* Blatant lie.


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## Robboe (Sep 1, 2002)

Ok, here's a snip from a PM from last week:



> Firstly, one carb load, which is relatively small by all standards, since you're only able to pack in so many in any one sitting without being natious, is not gonna reset your metabolism.
> 
> Personally, this whole metabolic shifting thing to me holds no water. I personally think (and this is my thoughts, which mean absolutely nothing as far as fact and/or science go) that the body prefers burning fat over carbs for the most part, but will happily burn carbs if it's getting the bulk of it's calories from them. I think Rob has included the 'metabolic shift' is for a few reasons: Firstly, it's got a fancy name, which dumb people think as 'magical' (a bit like ketosis is a 'magical' evirnoment) so there's the phychological aspect ie people will stick to something more if they think it's something special (ie it's not, you just eat less calories on it, so it works).
> 
> ...


----------



## w8lifter (Sep 1, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> Trust me, I'm a doctor*
> 
> ...


----------



## cytrix (Sep 1, 2002)

Hey TCD, i'm glad  you had a good time. What do you think regarding the amount of carbs I should eat, to maximally refill glycogen stores, but still keep fat loss at maximum levels too. Should it be based on your lean body weight in lbs? Rob doesn't really go into this.

Btw, are you gonna carb load after 3 days now, although you had carbs for three days straight?


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## Robboe (Sep 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by cytrix *_
> Hey TCD, i'm glad  you had a good time. What do you think regarding the amount of carbs I should eat, to maximally refill glycogen stores, but still keep fat loss at maximum levels too. Should it be based on your lean body weight in lbs? Rob doesn't really go into this.
> 
> Btw, are you gonna carb load after 3 days now, although you had carbs for three days straight?



Well, to 'maximally refill' glycogen stores, requires full glycogen supercompensation. Basically, think the weekend on a CKD. _That's_ how to do it. But then again, that's totally off limits with this diet.

Your carb loads are to just keep things running and provide a bit of glycogen for your training.

Rob doesn't go into it because this is supposed to be an easy diet to follow for the average (lazy) person, and countning and weighing stuff is something that most just can't be arsed with. Thus, the carb loads are just how much you can eat in 1-2 meals before bed.

I'm actually going to a house warming this friday, so there'll be no carb loads until that day, when i'll just count the beer as a carb load. I think i'll try and squeeze some rice or oats in there somewhere too. We'll see how it goes.


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## Robboe (Sep 2, 2002)

Ok, did legs today. The Toon are playing Liverpool in a mo, and it's on TV so this'll be a quicky.

Squats: 160k [352] - 3
160k - 2
140k - 3
dropped: 100k - 8
dropped: 60k - 6

SLDLs: *172.5k [379.5] - 4!* (A PR, had to really push for rep 4).
160k - 3 / 140k - 6

Hack machine: 75k - 4
60k - 5

Did some calf work and then finished. 

I was suffering from some weird sharp stabbing hunger pains throughout this workout, which was well annoying.

I'm moving back into NHE mode and it's quite annoying. This depleting malarkey is such a nonce around. I've actually upped my volume a tad to waste some glycogen so i can get back to how i was quicker. Some may think crazy, but then again, that's them. And i'm ace. 

And that's that.


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## hardasnails1973 (Sep 2, 2002)

On carb load Chicky whats is your opinon of using ALA say like 1.5 grams ? ANy commnets I would like to hear. 

Thanks hardasnails


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## Robboe (Sep 3, 2002)

Well, i don't really know that much on ALA.

What i do know, is that it's an excellent anti-oxidant.

There's also the statement that it aids glucose uptake by muscle cells in muscles via the GLUT4 receptor. Of course fat also has this receptor, so from what i can gather, it also aids glucose uptake in fat cells. Whether this is totally true, i'm unsure. I'm also unsure whether this is a good (cause it may help with refeeding) or bad thing.


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## Robboe (Sep 3, 2002)

My legs are hella sore from yesterday. Hams ad lower back especially. And yes, i realise my lower back ain't my legs, so no smart ass comments.

I trained push earlier. Good fun t'was.

Bench: 2 sets, first using 102.5k [225.5] for 5 reps. This actually equalled a PR, which is good in the sense that i'm still gaining strength bit by bit, but also bad cause a bench of that amount...sucks, basically. Compared to my other lifts anyway.

Weighted dips: 2 sets, first with 43.75k  [96.25] for 4 reps. One down from last week. My first bench set musta knocked it outta me.

Decline machine press: just one set with 235k [517] for 7 reps, which, although i hit failure, is a lower weight than i'm used to usually using. (my god that sounds like a funny sentence with all those 'us').

Inclined flyes: 2 sets, first with 38k DB's, but i only got 3 reps so i dropped it a bit. Second set i used the 32k's. I got 6 and finished when those little black dots in my eyes told me the set was done.

Side laterals: 3 sets.

CGBP: 2 sets. Seem to be stuck on my heaviest weight with this. Most likely from so much pre-fatigure from other presses. Not something i'm worried about right now.

Again, you'll notice the higher than usual volume for me, since i'm trying to drop some glycogen to make this transition quicker. This also means no standard carb load tonight. No real carbs till friday actually.


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## cytrix (Sep 3, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> Well, to 'maximally refill' glycogen stores, requires full glycogen supercompensation. Basically, think the weekend on a CKD. _That's_ how to do it. But then again, that's totally off limits with this diet.
> ...


----------



## w8lifter (Sep 3, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> this'll be a quicky.



Mmmm...quicky


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## Robboe (Sep 4, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by cytrix *_
> Doc , so what is a good amount to take in? I think w8 and DP's carb up meal come to about 1g/lb bodyweight. I thought, maybe it would be even better to base it on lean weight? How much total do you takein - I am asking, since you are loosing body fat and eating probably more than that, which will probably help you with your weight training.
> Do you gain lean mass the way you do it, allthough you're also using EC and doing a lot of cardio?
> Did you get your Y yet?




Well, since there's no actual figure for it, why not just go with their carb up idea and see how it goes.

When i do a proper carb up i prolly take in about 250-300g, with the first 100g coming from liquid carbs. I haven't done a proper carb up for a week and a bit though, since the wedding and such has gotten in the way. I also jiggle a social life at the same time as dieting, so beer swilling usually gets classed in my carb ups.

I may be taking in more, but also note that i am bigger than you (not gloating, just stating fact). No real mass gain, no. As much as you'd like to, you don't add muscle in calorie deficit. Even though i cycle high calorie days in there, the anabolic effect really only maintains what i've built.

I only use Ephedrine once a week right now, since i haven't got many left. I'm currently on the hunt for some though. Hopefully i'll be able to take it more regularly when i do. I also only take the caf + L-Tyrosine combo just before any cardio. I'm currently off the cardio till maybe next monday night. I'd think about doing some on saturday morning to try and burn off some of the previous night's beer, but i'll have to see how i feel.

No Yohimbine yet, no. I'm thinking it might be stuck in customs. I hope it comes soon.

DOMS update: ouch.

Well, just my legs and lower back still. No real soreness in my chest, delts or tris - just basic fatigue.

No cardio cause of this soreness.

Pull tomorrow.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 4, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> No Yohimbine yet, no. I'm thinking it might be stuck in customs. I hope it comes soon.



Chicken, Y is not something I am familiar with and I really liked your peice on it.  Is this something that is readily available, like at a GNC?  If so I am headed there in a bit and may pick some up.

What are the proper doses?


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## Robboe (Sep 4, 2002)

I'm glad you liked it.

However, it is only a minor part of a larger article on thermogenic drugs and their effects on the body i'm writing for wbb.

I have a few ideas for other articles too. One i'm writing up right now is about dieting basics and how dieting effects the body and why getting lean and staying there is such a bastard. I'll send you a link when it's up.

I'm not sure if it's available at GNC, purely because there's no GNC's anywhere near where i live. The closest is about 1000 miles in your direction 

I know you can get yohimbe from health shops over there (i think), but just like ephedra, if you want the potent part (like ephedrine) then try and find yohimbine.

www.1fast400.com is a place where you can get it cheap, orally and/or transdermally. In fact, it's uite a good website overall.

For dosing and such, check a thread i posted in for Cytrix. I'll bump it up for you in a sec.

The doses differ between orals and transdermals, depending on which route you take.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 4, 2002)

Thanks.  I saw Yohimbe in GNC but not Yohimbine.


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## Robboe (Sep 5, 2002)

Trained back today.

I can't be bothered to type up actual numbers, but the session was decent.

WG chins, BB rows, DB shrugs and i was done.


I must remember to weigh in tomorrow morning, cause my usual saturday morning weigh in is no gonna happen.

I'm off to a house warming party. I start drinking at 5pm tomorrow, to do some pre-house-warming pub warming lol.

Should be fun.


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## Robboe (Sep 6, 2002)

I weighed in 4lbs heavier today.

Last week i was 200.5lbs. Today i weighed 204.5lbs.

Reasons?

1. Last weekend's away trip. Definately supercompensated glycogen. I definately spilled over. I know this cause on monday the fat around my abs was actually sore. I've had this feeling a few times before actually, usually the day after a total binge day (ie high carbs + high fat - sometimes 2 cheesecakes during this time lol. Ahh...those were the days...) So i'm still holding some from then.

2. Weighing in so close to the weekend. I've only been back in calorie deficit for 4 days before this, so i wasn't expecting to be lower in weight. Tonight i'm drinking, so that'll most likely effect my weight further so i didn;t see much point in waiting any longer before weighing in.

Incidentally, this was my fifteenth weigh in since beginning dieting. It really has flew, i can assure you. Great for me actually. This diet has been much better than my last.

Since starting this diet (not NHE, just dieting in general) 15 weeks ago, i was 220lbs, considering last week's weight and not today's, that's 19.5lbs lost. And i doubt much, if any of it is muscle. If there was, i'd say 2-3lbs max. Which i'm extremely pleased about.

This week i've felt quite brilliant too. I attribute this to last weekend's leptin boosting and the lack of cardio this week. Definately feel better for it all round. Cardio will start up again soon though, if not tomorrow (depending on how rough i feel) then definately monday night after work.

I'm sitting here trying to think of things to do to take my mind off food. Whenever i know a carb load or a 'cheat' is coming up, for some reason i just wanna start it there and then, y'know. Like thinking, "i'm gonna fuck up anyway, so why not start now?"

I've had this feeling loads of times. But once i start, i know i'll just wanna keep on going and it'll push my cals for the day way too high. Especially with the drink. I'll also eat so much i'll feel uncomfortable and bloated for the rest of the day.

Just gotta take my head off it.


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## Robboe (Sep 6, 2002)

Just had a few strawberries and i feel much better now.


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## kuso (Sep 6, 2002)

I thought you were already feeling "brilliant"?


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## Robboe (Sep 6, 2002)

Energy wise and well being, i am.

But when i know i'm gonna cheat it gets tough.

Even when i know i'm going out drinking or whatever, i still try to keep myself in fat burning mode as much as possible. I look at drinking or carb loading as more of fat burning halting, rather than adding fat.


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## ponyboy (Sep 6, 2002)

Do you think the alcohol consumption may be lingering in your system causing some of the differences you noted?  

Just interested in your thoughts on booze and how long the effects remain in the system, because I have read varying reports.  How much, if at all could this be affecting thing on your end?


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## Robboe (Sep 6, 2002)

I doubt it.

what is alcohol's half-life?

4 hours or so (or is it 8?) for every unit (ie pint or shot or glass of wine).

Even though i drank a shitload over the weekend (friday and saturday), i don't think it's still gonna be in me now.

I also dropped a lot of water over monday, tuesday and wednesday, although clearly not all of it. This i put more down to intramuscular glycogen than alcohol, although your theory is a perfectly valid one.

I do try to keep the boozing to once a week. Sometimes more if i'm not dieting. last bulk i was going out like 2-3 nights a week every week for like 7 weeks lol. Great fun, but i got fat.

Speaking of which, the house warming is soon, but we're meeting up at the corner house to do some pub-warming before we set off.

So...hasta la vista.


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## Robboe (Sep 7, 2002)

No cardio today.

It's nearly 1:30pm, i've been up for a few hours and i've yet to eat.

I'm in a good mood though. I had a shower and stood infront of the mirror afterwards and had a proper look at myself.

I gotta admit, i'm probably the leanest i've been since i was a skinny little whipper snapper of about 6 years old (i've been hella fat for a huge portion of my life, hence, why i got into lifting).

From what i can see, my areas with most fat, as expected, are my lower ab region, just under my pectorals (nipple area, kinda) and lower back/glutes/hamstrings area.

Of course i'm holding bits of fat everywhere, but these have the most density of deposits. I wish this fucking Yohimbine HCL would get here. I've exchanged a few emails with Mike (1fast400) and we think it's actually been locked up. I've no idea why though, cause i don't think it's illegal over here. It's damn annoying.

If i was to stop cutting right now, i'd be pleased with how i've done. 14-15 weeks have flew by and i've stuck by the diets well. No full on cheat day, although i've managed to still enjoy my food. I'm not getting ready for a contest so i see no point in trying to get down that far. It's just a stress for my body that i don't need, and i'd prolly end up sacrificing muscle needless in the attempt. I'm quite excited about the next few weeks though.

The cardio will start back up this monday, i've promised myself. I've had a good break from it and let my body sort itself out. I also do legs tomorrow morning which i'm quite looking forward to.

Last night i started my carbs at about 4:30pm, having a small amount of dextrose with whey, and some creatine and CLA. Then sneaked a dream ice cream bar  and had about 2 bowls of museli and 3 weetabix. T'was nice. I'm actually debating in my head the point of carbing up on 'clean' carbs when food i like (ie cereals) seem to do just a good a job. It's not like i'm basing my entire diet around them, just filling myself with them bi-weekly and going to bed. It's not like they're gonna spur on any cravings, since i'm asleep by the time the insulin levels are falling and the ghrelin and NPY levels are rising. And i am one of the train  beliving that a calorie is just a calorie (although they cause different effects, this could be a good concept for a debate or article --- just thinking on my feet [or seat] here), so i'm still undecided right now. Of course, there's only 5-6 weeks of dieting left for me, so i'm thinking it's not gonna matter much in the long run anyway. I'll be finished dieting by the time i've made my mind up lol.

Last night i also manged to have a takeaway too. Bag of chips and a slice of pizza. It really pisses me off. I know for a fine fact that the chances of anything eaten while under the influence has more potential to be stored as fat (since the body views alcohol as a toxin it must get rid of, thus, puts all other metabolism aside [ie stores it for later] and focuses on ridding the body of this toxin) and yet when i'm pissed i just think "fuck it" and eat anyway. Grr! lol.

Drank a shit load last night too. Someone just _had_ to get the shot glasses out...

~~Many drinking games followed~~

My mate also has a pull up bar in his doorway, so we were being stupid with that. Twice i managed to bang my elbow off the chain's-sticky-outy-bit-of-metal and give myself a dead arm and hit my funny bone. It's still hurting today actually.

Funny story: some blonde bint friend of my mates was there. She was off her tits with the drink and getting more from the dial-a-drink service (they deliver alcofrol to anywhere at anytime - for a slightly higher price, naturally) and she'd bumped into me so many time that night. So as she walked past with her 20 squid bottle of vodka, i tripped her. Not with intent though, but fortunately, she fell straight into a walk, hit her head and smashed her vodka all over. So fitting. I was well chuffed lol. Daft cow.

I think i'm gonna try and eat now. I popped an ECA for fun earlier, to see how it would effect me. I feel kinda full of energy and yet totally fucked lol. This is paradoxical. Or something...

I'm listening to 'relation of command' by at the drive-in as i write this, and i promise it's totally tits. If you have kazaa, DL some of the music. Fucking genius. Especially 'quarantined'. If i ever compete, i wanna pose to that track. 

Ok, i'm done droning on.

Wow, that's a lot of writing!


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## Yanick (Sep 9, 2002)

> And i am one of the train beliving that a calorie is just a calorie (although they cause different effects, this could be a good concept for a debate or article --- just thinking on my feet [or seat] here)



I have to definitely agree with you on this one TCD.  Although low carb diets have their benefit in the fact that you control appetite much better when on them.

I'm also of the belief that insulin resistance changes all the rules.  So, in terms of insulin resistance, if you are fine, then the old energy balance is all you really need to worry about.

I'm still researching this though, and i'm really not decided on this issue...


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## Robboe (Sep 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> 
> 
> I have to definitely agree with you on this one TCD.  Although low carb diets have their benefit in the fact that you control appetite much better when on them.
> ...



I forgot about this journal thread lol. Glad you reminded me. I did legs yesterday morning and i'm doing some cardio soon, so i'll update with comments and results from both of them later.

Protein and fat both cause more favourable effects on a gut hormone called CCK. It's an acronym for 'cholestokynin' but i can't spell it properly right now, i don't think. Anyway, CCK basically tells your brain 'that's enough for now'. It's also on a delay from belly to head, so you can cram in a shit load of food (think christmas day or thanks giving in any american's case where you binge) in a short space of time before you realise your stomach is distended further than your toes and you're in pain lol. 

Carbs don't have this effect that protein and fat do, so eating meals of protein and fat keep hunger blunted for longer. If you include fibre you also slow gastric emptying (ie the food stays in your stomach longer) and so ghrelin levels don't rise as soon between meals and so hunger is not initiated. And since ghrelin ain't rising, either is neuropeptide Y (NPY) since ghrelin drives this chemical [NPY] and it causes cravings, mostly for carbs. Y'know those sugar cravings you get? Well, long term dieting cravings are caused by leptin, but those nagging little cravings you get for chocolate or ice cream between meals comes from NPY. Leptin increases reduce NPY, which is one reason why refeeds can be so beneficial. Not to mention every other beneficial reason for keeping leptin elevated while dieting. 

Insulin resistance can be a significant factor, but you can also think of it being almost beneficial. Since a more insulin resistant muscle or tissue cell means there's more chance of the carbohydrates spilling over into fat cell metabolism and either boosting leptin or keeping leptin elevated. Providing calories are in deficit this could still work. 

Of course it's a slightly different kettle of fish, as is anything that isn't normal, such as diabetics or the obese.


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## w8lifter (Sep 9, 2002)

Haven't read this but DP wanted me to post it for you 

Hungry? It May be Your Hormones Talking


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## Yanick (Sep 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by w8lifter *_
> Hungry? It May be Your Hormones Talking



Ghrelin's a bitch, but Mercola is the man.




> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> *Protein and fat both cause more favourable effects on a gut hormone called CCK. It's an acronym for 'cholestokynin' but i can't spell it properly right now, i don't think. Anyway, CCK basically tells your brain 'that's enough for now'. It's also on a delay from belly to head, so you can cram in a shit load of food (think christmas day or thanks giving in any american's case where you binge) in a short space of time before you realise your stomach is distended further than your toes and you're in pain lol.*



So thats what it's called! I remembered reading and seeing on TV reports that obese people seem to have be "slow" at sending the fullness signal to their brain and thereby eat a lot more.  So i'm guessing somehow obese people don't produce the CCK fast enough or something...doesn't mean to much to me, lol.



> *Carbs don't have this effect that protein and fat do, so eating meals of protein and fat keep hunger blunted for longer. If you include fibre you also slow gastric emptying (ie the food stays in your stomach longer) and so ghrelin levels don't rise as soon between meals and so hunger is not initiated. And since ghrelin ain't rising, either is neuropeptide Y (NPY) since ghrelin drives this chemical [NPY] and it causes cravings, mostly for carbs. Y'know those sugar cravings you get? Well, long term dieting cravings are caused by leptin, but those nagging little cravings you get for chocolate or ice cream between meals comes from NPY. Leptin increases reduce NPY, which is one reason why refeeds can be so beneficial. Not to mention every other beneficial reason for keeping leptin elevated while dieting.*



Man 1 year ago i knew about the post-prandial production of insuline and thought i was the shit, lol.  It just shows you that no matter how much you think you know, you still don't know that half of it.



> *Insulin resistance can be a significant factor, but you can also think of it being almost beneficial. Since a more insulin resistant muscle or tissue cell means there's more chance of the carbohydrates spilling over into fat cell metabolism and either boosting leptin or keeping leptin elevated. Providing calories are in deficit this could still work.*



I started googling MFW and looking for old posts of Lyle's and came across some interesting ideas of his.  Lyle stated that insulin resistance essentially partitions calories.  Meaning that it tells the calories where to go.  An insulin resistant adipocyte is actually beneficial, it means that it is trying to NOT get any bigger.  Also a more insulin resistant adipocyte means that the cals go to the muscle cells creating a more anabolic environment.  He was the one who introduced me to this idea of just get enough protein and EFA's and you can pretty much anything you want and lose weight provided you keep a calorie deficit.  It is a lot harder to prevent over-eating if you start eating bread and shit because of the wild swings of blood sugar, so he was only saying that in a theoretical way.  He still advocates CKD's and LC diets because of the appetite control they offer.  I dunno just some stuff i've been reading, it seems really interesting.



> *Of course it's a slightly different kettle of fish, as is anything that isn't normal, such as diabetics or the obese.*



So very true.

On a side note, i remembered reading somewhere that you were reading LOTR.  How'd you like it?  IMO, its a great book, but a bit childish, if you want a more mature book (mature in terms of it talks about the dirty side of things, rape, disease, murder, dirty words, for some reason i get the idea that you like stuff like that ) try reading the saga "A Song of Fire and Ice" (or is it ice and fire?) by George R.R. Martin, its a bit more mature but the series has not been finished (only 3 of 6 books are out).


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## Robboe (Sep 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by w8lifter *_
> Haven't read this but DP wanted me to post it for you
> 
> Hungry? It May be Your Hormones Talking




Yeah, i read this the other day. I subscribed to that site when DP linked a few things from it. It's quite good.

But don'tcha feel good knowing that i beat him (mercola) to it and told ya all the relevant info that's available on ghrelin already?


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## Robboe (Sep 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> So thats what it's called! I remembered reading and seeing on TV reports that obese people seem to have be "slow" at sending the fullness signal to their brain and thereby eat a lot more.  So i'm guessing somehow obese people don't produce the CCK fast enough or something...doesn't mean to much to me, lol.



Well yeah, i guess there's that. But also, actual obese people have defected Ob genes (or is it they don't have an Ob gene? i can't recall) and so whereas leptin would have an effect on us and every other hormone and process it controls, obese people don't get these effects. So their brains never get told "ok, that's enough for now" and always feel like they have room for more. And are always hungry. And so eat. And eat. And eat. And get fat.



> Man 1 year ago i knew about the post-prandial production of insuline and thought i was the shit, lol.  It just shows you that no matter how much you think you know, you still don't know that half of it.



Yeah, and we still don't. I bet there's a shit load of stuff that goes on with fat burning and fat storage that we just don't have a clue about. I'm doubting there's anything more significant than leptin though.



> I started googling MFW and looking for old posts of Lyle's and came across some interesting ideas of his.  Lyle stated that insulin resistance essentially partitions calories.  Meaning that it tells the calories where to go.  An insulin resistant adipocyte is actually beneficial, it means that it is trying to NOT get any bigger.  Also a more insulin resistant adipocyte means that the cals go to the muscle cells creating a more anabolic environment.  He was the one who introduced me to this idea of just get enough protein and EFA's and you can pretty much anything you want and lose weight provided you keep a calorie deficit.  It is a lot harder to prevent over-eating if you start eating bread and shit because of the wild swings of blood sugar, so he was only saying that in a theoretical way.  He still advocates CKD's and LC diets because of the appetite control they offer.  I dunno just some stuff i've been reading, it seems really interesting.



Yeah, you can lose fat on a higher carb diet providing calories are in check. But in real world you tend to eat more cause of cravings.

It's funny all these things should be coming up now, cause i'm writing a lot about them in a future article for WBB right now.



> On a side note, i remembered reading somewhere that you were reading LOTR.  How'd you like it?  IMO, its a great book, but a bit childish, if you want a more mature book (mature in terms of it talks about the dirty side of things, rape, disease, murder, dirty words, for some reason i get the idea that you like stuff like that ) try reading the saga "A Song of Fire and Ice" (or is it ice and fire?) by George R.R. Martin, its a bit more mature but the series has not been finished (only 3 of 6 books are out).



LOTR is fan-fuckin-tastic.

I think it's great, childish or not. I love shit like that and can't wait for the next film in Decemeber. (I currently have the promotional poster as my PC wallpaper, i'm that sad lol).

I do try and read stuff, but more often than not, if it's something fictional where i don't actually learn anything, i tend to lose interest pretty damn quick.


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## Robboe (Sep 9, 2002)

Ok, yesterday i did legs.

Squats: 160k - 4 / 4 (one rep progression)
140k - 6

SLDLs: 172.5k - 4 (Eq PR) / 3

Hacks: 75k - 5 (new PR) / 4
50k - 12

Sorry, but i can't be bothered to convert to lbs. If you really wanna know, multiply by 2.2

Today i ate at 1:30pm, got home from work at around 4pm (ish), and took 200mg caf and 2g L-Tyrosine. two cups of green tea later at 6:15pm i was cardioing away.

3 minute warm up.

5 minute progressive run.

2.5 minute walk.

3.5 minute run.

3 minute walk.

2 minute run.

rest.

30 minutes on the stepper. 

As usual i was dying. It's been 2 weeks since my last cardio session and it's amazing how much i've lost fitness wise.

Anyhoo, push tomorrow.


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## Dr. Pain (Sep 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, I feel good bringing it up in the first place to make you look so good!   LOL 

(though you talked with Lyle first)  


DP


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## w8lifter (Sep 9, 2002)

Are we going to get updated pics of the new Lean Chicken Baby?


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## Robboe (Sep 9, 2002)

I got no torso pics, but i got some snaps from the wedding in london from the other weekend, but they're too big too attach.

I'll send you them via MSN if you want though.


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## w8lifter (Sep 9, 2002)

Just email them to me 

...do you want me to shrink 'em for you?


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## Robboe (Sep 9, 2002)

No, they're annoying to wait to attach. I've done it twice already and it pissed me off to no end.


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## Robboe (Sep 11, 2002)

Qucik update.

Still no sign of YHCL. I told the guy i'm getting it off and so he's gonna send it again, so i told him i'm cover shipping prices. It's the least i can do if he's going on that stretch for me.

I training chest delts and tris last night. The gym was heaving so it was a kinda do-what-is-free workout. Used DB's for flat bench for the first time in a long while and got 6 reps with the 45k DB's. Stopping short of failure by like...one, haha. Ah well. Not bad for a first attempt back in a while.

Had a larger than usual carb load last night too. I've had terrible gas all day today from it. Although i managed to persuade the folk at work that it must be problems with the air vents, or something in the pipes, lol. 

On a side note, after the fourth request of asking, i'm now a WBB diet mod.


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## Yanick (Sep 11, 2002)

Congrats TCD.  I'm gonna start posting over there again, seeing as my various daily forums aren't active enough for me.  Plus it was the first forum i signed on to...


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## Robboe (Sep 12, 2002)

Same username?


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## Yanick (Sep 12, 2002)

yep


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## Robboe (Sep 12, 2002)

I see you.

ANyway, great back workout today. I progressed (and set new PR's) for weighted wide grip chins, BB rows AND kneeling DB shrugs. I was well impressed.

I trained later than usual too, cause i was helping my mam clean the bathroom ceiling (long story). I also managed to get bleach on my top and dye the colour out of it in places. I was livid.

I recently found some caps of dymetadrine that cloughie sentme last year cause they gave hima  headache. I took 2 before training. I dunno if it was these, or my extened carb up on tuesday, or a combination of both. Either way, i wasn't complaining.

In fact, i had such a hidden energy, i did a proper bicep workout for the first time in absolutely months. I think i did about 4 sets altogether. It was well scary.

I think i'll do some cardio tomorrow after work.


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## Robboe (Sep 14, 2002)

Last night i did cardio. I actually went to the 'cardio gym' along the road, only to find out that in twenty minutes it was becoming women only, so they wouldn't let me in, bastards. I got a lift down to my weights gym instead and did cardio there.

I also did some this morning. 

With the wedding, my weight fluctuations have been kerazee. Two weeks ago i was 14st 4.5lbs, the week after i was 14st 8lbs (holding from the wedding wekend) and today i am 14st 4lbs. So i'm happy. Albeit depleted.

I went to see The Bourne Identity last night too. Great film, but the way he kills his last bad guy in the end maybe ruined it a bit.

I'm off to the Hyena Cafe tonight with a shit-load of people. It's a comedy store, basically. And it's my sister's birthday, so we decided to do something different.

I'm looking forward to it. 

No doubt the alcohol will be rubbing vigourously through the strip.


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## lina (Sep 20, 2002)

Hey TCD,

How is the diet going?

No updates?


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## Robboe (Sep 21, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by lina *_
> Hey TCD,
> 
> How is the diet going?
> ...




Hey Lina, i've actually come online early today primarily to update this bad boy for y'all cause there's an afternoon crunch derby between the toon and sunderland in a bit.

I haven't had as much time, nor motivation it seems, to update this just recently. I've been typing up some stuff for a future collection of articles. I may be doing writing for this site in the future if i (or anyone else) can think of (a) decent title(s) or if Prince still wants me to. Only time will tell.

This week's workouts have been good. I seem to be hovering around strength at the moment. Most would call it a plateau, but with almost 17 weeks dieting done, i call it expected. I still add strength on some lifts every other or every third week so it's all good. My strength has increased these 16+ weeks overall so in general i'm happy with results.

I _should_ be getting my Yohimbine HCL tomorrow. I re-organised things with the supplier and he's sending it again free of charge, providing i pay the shipping, which, at $10 ain't no skin off my nose, especially if he's sending the same batch for nothing.

ANyway, my main point in this update, is to let you all know that i am now officially a believer. 

Oh yes.

I've had my foot in the door in the churd of leptin, but now i am truely a choir member.

Not this week gone, but the one before, i lifted thrice during the week and performed my cardio thrice during the week. My carb loads were moderate with some sneaked in treats. I dropped 0.5lbs.

This week gone, i've took a break from cardio (not something planned, but every time i've usually went to do cardio i've been a mixture of lazy, sore and tired so never quite got to the gym) and my carb loads have been quite huge and closer to 'refeeds' in their extremety. I prolly got down around 400-500g carbs in total. Mostly from cereals, chocolate (Nestle Double cream, look out for them kiddies. Good stuff  ), ice cream (vanilla vienetta  ) toast with wedneslydale cheese thumb: ) and generally anything else that's high in carbs (sugary or not) and low(ish) in fat. Now, when i say i eat these, i'm talking 50-100g dextrose and malto to start, 300-500g bars of choclate, entire vienttas, around 4 slices of toast, several bowls of cereal. NOT a small chocolate bar or a few piece, or one slice of vientta, toast and small bowl of cereal. I really mean a shit load of food.

And this is only within the space of about 3 hours (i have an appetite and stomach grand enough for large volumes of grub). Although last saturday for my sister's birthday it was spaced over 5-6pm till 4am (lmao now i read that properly) and i included beer in that one. And lots of caterpillar chocolate cake.  

Now, i'm not advocating you go out and eat tons of shit food like me or advertising such a method, but let me tell you this:

week 15-16: cardio thrice weekly, lifting thrice weekly, moderate carb loads - weight dropped = 0.5lbs
week 16-17: NO cardio, lifting thrice weekly, huge carb loads - weight dropped = 1lb.

Now, a few clarifications.

I will try and do cardio next week but i'll probably keep my bi-weekly carb loads similar to how i have this week. I'll tell you all how it goes.

Also, i more than anyone, knows there IS a fucking huge difference between "weight loss" and "fat loss". And i ain't dumb and can tell when i've lost fat or "weight" (ie a combination of fat and muscle [and/or water/glycogen]).

Now, i'm still losing fat all over - quads, arms, lower back (i've noticed this week i have quite twatty love handles round the back. i think during my last bulk when i put on too much fat, my body deposited most body fat around this region, the bastard); glutes and of course lower chest/nipple region and lower abs. In fact, one real disheartening thing about my abdominal region is that instead of coming off in an even layer, it's mostly coming off the 'upper' region first and thus, leaving the lower region thicker and making it look like i have a really pudgey little belly. This is becoming quite annoying and on several occasions i've thought i'd diet longer than 20 weeks in a bid to rid myself of this. But then other occasions i realise it's probably a dumb idea cause to get rid of that i'll have to get well below my setpoint, no doubt, which will cause me more problems than benefits.

So, because i'm still losing it all over, it's hard to notice a 1lb loss on my abs alone but i have noticed a shred more definiton in my right quad this week (lol, don't ask. I'm more defined on the right hand side of my body than the left. An annoying trait, but a genetic one no doubt Grr! lol). But one thing i can tell you, is that there has been no real noticeable muscle loss this week. At all in fact (i think noticing 1lb or 0.5lb muscle loss over seven days to be quite impossible, especially with a cyclical low carb diet where depletion plays such a significant rle in how muscular or bloated you can look).

So, why have i told you all this?

Well, i truely believe it's cause of leptin. Now, that is of course a belief at this point in time, and my thoughts and beliefs make very little difference in the grand scheme of things. If anyone ever tells you to do something because they "believe it to be true" then flame the fuck out of them. Here's some of the best replies i have EVER seen in regards to people's "beliefs":

"I believe in Aliens. Doesn't mean it's true"

"i believe black rocks keep away white tigers. I have no scientific evidence for this, but i always carry black rocks and i've yet to see a white tiger. I have 22 years of empirical evidence to prove this."

I hope you enjoyed that. Moving on...

I am leading myself to believe that with dieting, and calorie deficit, my leptin is falling. One huge refeed and here's where my train of thought twists a bit. Firstly, i could say that the huge refeed boosts leptin and makes the body believe that i'm no longer dying, there's no need for starvation mode and so it's time to repair and build upon any lost tissues (including muscle) and resynthesis some fat stores inc ase the situations arises again in the future. My first query is whether the body can upregulate itself in such a manner so quickly (ie over the course of one refeed). I'm no totally sure, but i'm doubtful at this time. My second train of thought is that the refeeds prevent it falling. And since i've gone so long with dieting, with these bi-weekly carb ups (now read: refeeds, due to their extremety) the leptin keeps trying to fall to tell the body it's "starving", but i keep bumping it up there (or at least preventing it from falling any further) every third and fourth day. It's like an elevator in a sky scraper. Think of the elevator as leptin. It is trying to go down, but it's like every 3rd and 4th day i jam my foot in the doors, so it's always stuck at the same floor (or at least there abouts the same floor).

Now, i keep the train of thought that i can boost leptin because i seem to be getting the nutrient partitioning effect from leptin (ie muscle retention, fat burning). Despite more days in calorie surplus, the nutrient partitioning effect of this leptin is causing me to lose weight (i say weight since i use the scales as my first gauge, cause i know from past experiences how much my hypothalamus can play tricks on me when i look in the mirror - ie i'm too small and too fat - which i probably am lol) while retaining muscle.

Like i say, i'll keep refeeds the same this week and tell you all how it goes, but i'll add in some cardio to see what, if any difference it makes and inform you of the results.

Hopefully i'll be using YHCL this week too, if i recieve it tomorrow.

Sorry for such a large update, but it's been seven days worth remember.

And Lina, thank you kindly for the reminder


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## Yanick (Sep 21, 2002)

TCD,

Have you taken any full weeks off from dieting, and just stayed at maintanance or a little above?  Lyle advocates 1 week off every 6 weeks, because you will never increase leptin with such small refeeds...


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## Robboe (Sep 21, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> TCD,
> 
> Have you taken any full weeks off from dieting, and just stayed at maintanance or a little above?  Lyle advocates 1 week off every 6 weeks, because you will never increase leptin with such small refeeds...




No, not yet.

If i didn't have an ultimate cut off point, then i would. But i'm finished in about another 3-4 weeks so i'm not sure if i see any point in doing so.


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## lina (Sep 21, 2002)

Hi TCD,

Always enjoyable to read your journal with your fun adventures and your sense of humor (like that Brit wit)... also great nutritional info!

I'm currently on a Beverly diet, dunno if you are familiar with that, but your NHE sounds similar to that.... Carb loads on Mon/Thur nights... low carb (less than 50g), hi protein/mod fat... Is it the same idea? I love your carbloads much better though... my kind of carbloads... chocolate! Did Leslie's thread get you in trouble? LOL! And what da heck is a caterpillar chocolate cake? Like chocolate covered ants but they use caterpillars instead? 

Also, what other supplements are you using?  If you start using YHCL which I assume is a fat burner, wouldn't that artificially alter/speed up your fat loss results?  Well, I guess it doesn't matter since you have been on this diet for 17 weeks with great results already.... 

OK, lots of questions cause I'm still learning! 

Oh yes, have you been taking stats along the way or just going by the mirror?


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## Robboe (Sep 21, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by lina *_
> I'm currently on a Beverly diet, dunno if you are familiar with that, but your NHE sounds similar to that.... Carb loads on Mon/Thur nights... low carb (less than 50g), hi protein/mod fat... Is it the same idea?



Yeah, it sounds simialr enough.



> I love your carbloads much better though... my kind of carbloads... chocolate!



You do not wanna know how much chocolate and sweet stuf i have consumed today. All in the name of research and experimentation, naturally.



> Did Leslie's thread get you in trouble? LOL! And what da heck is a caterpillar chocolate cake? Like chocolate covered ants but they use caterpillars instead?



What thread was that?

Caterpillar chocolate cake = chocolate cake in the same of a caterpillar 



> Also, what other supplements are you using?  If you start using YHCL which I assume is a fat burner, wouldn't that artificially alter/speed up your fat loss results?  Well, I guess it doesn't matter since you have been on this diet for 17 weeks with great results already....



Multi vit/mineral.
extra vit C, E
extra calcium and zinc
EAS simply whey for post w/o
CLA before carb loads/refeeds (not really that important)
200mg caf tabs/L-tyrosine before cardio if i do it.
And that's about it really. I need some more ephedrine, which, when it comes, i'll use to keep normal when i try the usnic acid i have.

Let me just state for the record, i am in no way promoting or advertising the use of said substance.

Alrighty.



> OK, lots of questions cause I'm still learning!
> 
> Oh yes, have you been taking stats along the way or just going by the mirror?



I took measurements at the end of my last bulk, and i imagine i'll take some more at the end of this cut.

I weigh myself every week too. here's how my eight has changed since dieting:

start weight, 220lbs

weigh in 1: 217.5
2: 213.5
3: 211.5
4: 211
5: 208.5
6: 207
7: 206.5
8: 206
9: 205.5
10: 207.5 (weighed in on a sunday after friday night drinking. still holding from that night)
11: 204
12: 202
13: 201
14: 200.5
15: 204.5 (the week after the weekend binge during the wedding down London)
16: 200
17: 199

And that is what i weighed in at this morning. As you can see it's been a nice steady drop.

I also look in the mirror...a lot. Hell, i'm vain, i don't care, i'll admit it. But only for myself. I don't walk around out side with shirts with no sleeves or none of that shit.


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## lina (Sep 21, 2002)

Awesome job and great progress!!!   

Thanks for the updates!

Can't wait to see pics then in 3-4 weeks!


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## cytrix (Sep 22, 2002)

Maybe a refeed is what I need - your observations are very interesting. I've been doing the NHE now for almost four weeks (Tuesday will be day 28), and I really start to crave more carbs, could this be the fallen leptin levels? I also read your article about the adrenal burnout, and now I'm wondering if maybe the caffeine and yohimbe i've been taken are the reason for my cravings, and not the leptin?


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## kuso (Sep 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> I _should_ be getting my Yohimbine HCL tomorrow. I re-organised things with the supplier and he's sending it again free of charge, providing i pay the shipping, which, at $10 ain't no skin off my nose, especially if he's sending the same batch for nothing.



TCD...is this from 1fast400? What are his shipping charges normally like? And did it turn up?


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## Robboe (Sep 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by cytrix *_
> Maybe a refeed is what I need - your observations are very interesting. I've been doing the NHE now for almost four weeks (Tuesday will be day 28), and I really start to crave more carbs, could this be the fallen leptin levels? I also read your article about the adrenal burnout, and now I'm wondering if maybe the caffeine and yohimbe i've been taken are the reason for my cravings, and not the leptin?



Leptin falls and brings down most with it.

There's a hormone called neuropeptide Y (NPY) which makes you crave the shit outta food, mainly carbs. Hence, sugar cravings.

NPY is like the anti-leptin.

When leptin drops, NPY rises.

You can put up wth the cravings providing fat loss is still coming along nicely. If fat loss has stalled or is really slow, do a refeed and see how it goes.

Self experimentation is the best form of feedback you can get. 

By the way, you may discover that the adrenal burnout thread was DP's, not mine.


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## Robboe (Sep 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> 
> 
> TCD...is this from 1fast400? What are his shipping charges normally like? And did it turn up?



Yeah, Mike is sorting me out.

Hasn't came today yet, no.

I have a priority mail number, so if it doesn't show by say, wednesday, i can phone royal mail and try and track where it is.

Shipping is usually about 9-10$ i think.

Not sure, but i imagine this would increase the heavier the package. But like i said, i'm not sure.


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## kuso (Sep 23, 2002)

Thanks, and good luck with the package!

It seems very cheap there, I might have to take a closer look


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## Robboe (Sep 24, 2002)

I'm one happy camper.

My YHCL finally came today. Hooray!

I'm starting off slowly, so i've had about 10mg altogether today. 2.5mg caps, so i've spaced out 4. Can't say i'm feeling any jitteriness. Depending on how the remainder of the day goes i may or may not go to 6 caps tomorrow. I may try and squeeze some GPP and then some running tomorrow afternoon after Uni.

Speaking of which, i've been at twice today. Yes, that's _twice_. I finished at noon and got home to eat, only for my dickhead mate to phone me up to come back! He's doing a PT degree course at my University and hasn't got a clue where he was going or what he had to do. I had to wait over an hour in a queue with him so he could get sorted with his library card. God that was annoying. Reminded me of when i first had to queue for mine, only the card-making machine was fucked so i had to wait 3.5 hours. Bastards.

I go train in a bit. Very soon in fact. I'll maybe update later with how it goes.

Since it's a tuesday, i'd usually refeed/carb load tonight, but not today. Oh no. I'm not doing a proper refeed/carb up till next week. It's said mate's birthday on thursday, so we're off down to tall trees on friday night (it's Europe's second biggest nightclub i do believe). Anyway, it's down in Yarm just outside of middlesborough so we gotta get a boozy-bus down there. We've doe it before and it's fun  Of course it broke down on the way last time, so that wasn't. I'll prolly have some spaggettii or oats before i go out that night.

Then on saturday, for the same birthday do (we tend to do things over the entire weekend for birthday's, me and my friends) we're hitting a new club that's just recently opened in town. I doubt i'll follow diet to the letter that day, but we'll just wait and see what happens.

Sunday will be back on though. I may not do a proper refeed till the following saturday. Dunno yet.


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## Robboe (Sep 24, 2002)

Just quick, it's 11:30pm here and i'm up at 7:30am tomorrow.

Did chest, side laterals and tris (one set of CGBP, and i only got 3 reps lol). But i care not, cause i progressed on weighted dips for the first time in about four weeks. I was well chuffed. Made me smile for a wee long while after.

Here's a quick workout summary:

chest: 6 sets
shoulders: 2 sets of side laterals
triceps: 1 set of CGBP for three reps.

Done.

I'd usually have steak tonight before bed, but my steak has went rank really quick this week. I'm quite pished off, but what can ya do 

I go shopping for supplies tomorrow. I'll try and sneak some GPP in there somewhere too.

Allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllrighty then (Ace Ventura), time for some shut eye.

Nighty night, you raving homosexuals.


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## lina (Sep 24, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Just quick, it's 11:30pm here and i'm up at 7:30am tomorrow.
> 
> 
> Nighty night, you raving homosexuals.



Are you trying to tell us something?!!!! 

Feel anything yet from Yohimbe?

Congrats on your weighted dips.

Have fun this weekend sounds like a blast!


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## Robboe (Sep 25, 2002)

Heart beats, baby. Lot of them.

Well, not really that bad actually. I'm still on moderate dosing for now. Building myself up for higher doses eventually.

I'll try and find the wesbite fo the club i'm going to on friday. Lemme go look for it.

And by the way, i may have changed my mind. I may not take in any carbs before going out on friday. I may just stick with my pro+fat meals and then just go out drinking. A few reasons for this are floating round in my head, but they're just theoretical and i have no way of checking or proving them right now, so i'll refrain from posting them. 

I expect my next "proper" carb load or refeed will not be till next tuesday.


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## lina (Sep 25, 2002)

Why? because you plan to drink case-loads of beer so that is enuf damage to hinder more fat loss?


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## Robboe (Sep 25, 2002)

Well yes, but that wasn't my original theory.


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## Robboe (Sep 27, 2002)

My cravings and appetite are through the roof so i'm a bit pissy.

Couple that with too many dicks dropping out of the tall trees trip tonight so we've had to cancel it and i'm now quite livid.

We're still going out, but i was looking forward to going down.

Back workout last night was great. My weight chins are really coming along. I equalled a personal best and managed it with nice slow and controlled reps with a full ROM on all of them. No half reps near the end or anything. I was pleased.

I'm not going out tomorrow anymore, cause the cost of tonight will now be higher. I'll use tomorrow for a carb up/refeed cause boy, i need it.


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## Robboe (Sep 28, 2002)

God, i got in at 4am this morning and went to bed in a drunken state.

For some unreal reason, that i have yet to decipher, i got back up at 8-fucking-30am wide awake.

My head is pounding.

Ugh...

This is an advertisement for you all to avoid alcohol. Or at least avoid the copious amounts of the substance i consume.

Ugh...

I'm using today as a refeed day. God knows, i need it.

Great night though. Went to a new club in town called "Blue Bambu".

Good fun.


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## Yanick (Sep 29, 2002)

TCD, the same exact thing happened to me on sunday.  I got in at 5am and woke up at 9am.  Care to do a little research on this, lol?

P.S.
Copious amounts of alcohol make any night, a fun night!


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## Robboe (Sep 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> TCD, the same exact thing happened to me on sunday.  I got in at 5am and woke up at 9am.  Care to do a little research on this, lol?



Not really, but i imagine the fact that my mouth was dry as hell and i was dehydrated to fuck was partly to blame.



> P.S.
> Copious amounts of alcohol make any night, a fun night!




True, but it does me no good the next day.


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## Yanick (Sep 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> True, but it does me no good the next day.



That is where we differ my friend.  After a night of heavy drinking, like this past sunday morning, i wake up in great condition.  My thoery is that, i'm depleted, then with the alcohol acting like a diuretic and all the carbs that i eat, i'm ready for a contest!  But with about 9% extra fat, lol.


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## Robboe (Oct 1, 2002)

I wasn't refering to how i look. Just how i feel.

Trained chest earlier. Was a good session, set another PR on weighted dips. Woo!

I've been using usnic acid for 3 days almost now. Feeling hot, but no real lethargy yet.

Went clubbing last night too. Didn't drink, just danced. Was a good larf. Met up with one of my best mates who now lives in Jock-land with his girlfriend - he was down for a week. He's went back today though. I was glad to see him. He is, without a doubt, _the_ funniest person i know and have ever had the pleasure of knowing.

I carb up later.


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## Robboe (Oct 8, 2002)

I haven't forgotten about this thing.

I actually finish 'cutting' in about two weeks.

NHE has proved a success as far as my original goals were concerned - simply reduce bf. Abs would be nice, but they'll come in time.

It's soon gonna be time for a progressive growth with progressive leanness package. Oh yes...


----------



## Robboe (Oct 8, 2002)

You'll have to excuse me. I selfishly left my 'bitch tits' out of that photo, sorry.

I'll try and get them back for any future photos, however.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 8, 2002)

Yeah, I noticed that!

Leaned out nicely.

TCD, how long have you been training?


----------



## Robboe (Oct 8, 2002)

Not long.

3 years total, with the first year and a half being a total waste (piss-poor training, crappy-ass diet etc..)

And since July 10th, 2001; i've spent 51 weeks (today marking the 51st) in calorie deficit or performing some sort of diet.

32 weeks cutting from July 10th 2001 to whenever, then a 15 week bulk (added far too much fat) and now this 19 weeks done so far. 

After a couple more weeks when i go back to lean gain (i.e. 0.5lbs a week) i don't plan on cutting again until after next summer, hopefully. 

Hopefully.

Hopefully.

But then again, i am repulsed with bodyfat, since coming from a fat bastard that i was before i started lifting. Knowing me i'll be cutting again in 2 fookin' weeks.

Hopefully not.

Hopefully.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 8, 2002)

My God, i am white.

BTW, call me Rob.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 8, 2002)

Sure Rob,

So I am curious about your background.  You obviously have a wealth of information and learned tons within this short time frame.  How/where did/does that come from?  What is your professional career?

I too, come from a fat bastard background...and yes....you are white!


----------



## Robboe (Oct 8, 2002)

I'm a professional bum.

Or professional irritant, depending upon who you are. (others on here may testify to that).

Or a University student, more precisely. (computing for business before you ask, basically programming and software development oriented more towards the project management side of things).

Have i mentioned how much i hate JAVA?

All i've learned has come from what i've read, experienced or heard of (depending on it's relative level of bull-shittery, and how much it checks out when i research it myself).

I am obsessed with muscular hypertrophy, but more so with fat cell metabolism and how hormones interact with these procedures.

I am basically a sad loser.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 8, 2002)

Well, what particularly intrigues me is the level of detail and scientific backup you track down and understand.

I have been in the training for years, consider myself relatively knowledgable on nutrition and especially training, and somewhat on suppliments, but no where close to the level of detail you are.  One would expect you'd be "in the field" or in medicine, science, etc....very interesting.

So basically you are still a babe....

(Oh and I have seen the prof irritant around....and noticed you have lightened up lately!  Maybe its because you have been allowed to drink whilest dieting).


----------



## Robboe (Oct 8, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> So basically you are still a babe....





I hope you mean baby, or i've been confused about your gender (or "preference") for quite a while. And your avatar is quite decieving lol.

j/k


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## Twin Peak (Oct 8, 2002)

Meant "babe" as in "babe in the woods" as  in baby, yes.

Gender and preferences are as you presumed.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 8, 2002)

Good to hear!

<Big Gay Al Voice>


Suuuuuuuuuuuper!

</Big Gay Al Voice>



Anyhoo, bedtime for Rob.

Take care man.


----------



## Yanick (Oct 9, 2002)

Looking good Rob.

I have about the same amount of experience in lifting as you (1.5 years, i'm not counting the BS time).  You look bigger though, looks like that bulk did you some good.

Also don't worry about being white, start worrying about that when the summer hits (if it ever does over there )


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## Robboe (Oct 10, 2002)

Thanks Yan.


Well, it seems after all this time to see my pic no one really gives a shit anymore.


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## kuso (Oct 10, 2002)

LOL.....we care, and you are looking good....I can`t remember though...was there a before pic on here?


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## Robboe (Oct 10, 2002)

Nah, no before pic, sorry.


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## Robboe (Oct 10, 2002)

Training has been going well recently.

I trained back today. I've also been recently re-employing direct bicep training. Reason being that i want to progress on weighted wide grip chins and i don't want weak biceps hindering that.

For the most part, my training has been short of failure by a rep or two on most sets.

However, some sets have been beyond failure - not many though.

I'm going out tomorrow night and then i carb up on saturday. I hate some chocolate (read: lots of chocolate) for the occasion 

Then after that, i have one remaining week left of NHE and that will mark ten weeks total for the diet, and 20 weeks in total for my cutting cycle.

The week following that i'll convert to a 40c/30p/30f eating plan (which i'll post soon in here before i let this diary die) but still stay under maintenance calories. That way, theoretically, the only weight i'll gain will be water/glycogen weight gain as i 'fill up' again after all this time depleted.

Then after a week or two like that (maybe even losing some fat in the process. Most likely in fact, since i'll still be below calories) i'll start to increase calories in a bid to gain 0.5lbs a week.

My split is also changing when i go on my 40/30/30. It will be as follows:

sun: thighs
mon: delts, arms


thurs: back, calves
fri: chest, abs

I'll prolly not go to failure on the sets and add in some exra volume. And pick exercises that mean bodyparts will be hit twice a week or so e.g. doing close grips on arm day to hit chest a bit etc....

The sets on my delts, arm day will definately be shy of failure.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 10, 2002)

Why are you/will train shy of failure?

Why haven't you been training arms directly?


----------



## Robboe (Oct 11, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Why are you/will train shy of failure?




With carbs being so low and not taking in carb post workout and being in calorie deficit i just find it a good way of preserving as much as possible.

In fact, during my next gaining phase i plan on carrying the philosophy over for the most part.

Have you read much up on HST?

I don't plan on doing a 'proper' HST cycle, but i do employ some of the basic principles.

www.hypertrophy-specific.com

Go do some reading if you have time  it's well worth it.



> Why haven't you been training arms directly?




No need really, as far as hypertrophy is concerned. I've only just began doing shoulders directly again.

My pushing and pulling days hit delts nicely as far as i'm concerned. In fact, delts are usually locally overtrained in most natural trainers, so not hitting them directly may actually be a god idea. But functional strength is also a plus, so maybe cycling your diret shoulder training may be a better idea - a bit like i'm doing now.

I'm thinking maybe a 'every-other-week' style of training them or a 2 weeks training them 1-2 weeks not training them may be beneficial. Maybe i'll exeriement eventually.

I've just began bicep training too. Usually all my rowing and pulling hit them nicely. Plus, i really dislike bicep training.

I've never stopped doing triceps training, because i need the strength to ensure good benching. I do very low volume for them though - like 2 sets right now.

During my next gaining phase i'm upping volume, like i said. 

Here's prolly how i'll go about it:

Chest - 8-10 sets
back 8-10 sets, maybe plus 2 sets for shrugs (haven't decided whether to include my shrug sets as entire 'back' yet.
Thighs (quads AND hams) - 8-10 sets

delts - 4-5 sets
triceps - 4 sets
biceps 2-3 sets

calves - whatever i feel like
abs - see above


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 11, 2002)

Don't know much about HST, per se, I do the reading.

After training for 10 years and trying most everything, I am a firm believer in failure and beyond as the best way to gain muscle (for most people).

That said I do cycle back on occassion.

As to direct shoulders, I can't agree as a general matter, but I do the same thing since my shoulders tend to overpower the rest of my physique, so I had been doing them lightly after chest for the last 5 or 6 months.  For example, this morning I did them heavy and solo for the first time and still pressed 225 for 5 reps.

As to direct bis, again for a bodybuilder (as opposed to powerlifter) I disagree as a general matter but if it works for you, then great.  If I did  that (and I think for most people) my/their arms would be undersized.  Plus, I like arm training!


----------



## Robboe (Oct 11, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> After training for 10 years and trying most everything, I am a firm believer in failure and beyond as the best way to gain muscle (for most people).




Oh, me too for the most part, man. But i like to mix and match and experiement.


By the way, you three dudes, TP, Yan and Kuso, thanks for the feedback.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 11, 2002)

Anytime.  And I firmly agree with experimenting!


----------



## kuso (Oct 11, 2002)

You`re welcome...this thread has been VERY informative so far....looking forward to the bulk!


----------



## Yanick (Oct 11, 2002)

No prob dude.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 11, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> You`re welcome...this thread has been VERY informative so far....looking forward to the bulk!




Haha, please: 'gain'. I strongly dislike the word 'bulk'. Bad memories and all that jazz.

I don't think i'm keeping a journal for it.


----------



## kuso (Oct 11, 2002)

Why not?? You`ve help so many with this thread.......even more are interesting in adding LBM without much fat.......


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## Twin Peak (Oct 11, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> I don't think i'm keeping a journal for it.



I think you should....at least the highlights.


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## kuso (Oct 11, 2002)

Yeah...that way we can compare your way and TP`s  lol


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## Robboe (Oct 11, 2002)

Well this was just so you guys could get the gist of NHE, but also for anyone unsure how to go about a cut in general, and when to add cardio, what to do, when to do it, how to fit a social life around it etc...

How to manipulate the calories and such.

People don't really need to know how to add mass. Just eat enough and train hard. Not much more to it. If you're adding too much fat during the gaining phase, cut back on calories a bit.

It's basically be nothing special and wouldn't really be differentiated from any other journal.


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## kuso (Oct 11, 2002)

Basically though, not many agree with your low volume approch etc.......it would be interesting to watch a TCD bulk..........sorry, LBM gain  and see what is working and what isn`t.


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## Robboe (Oct 11, 2002)

But i've already said i'm increasing volume to 8-10 sets for large bodyparts.


Is that still considered low volume for you guys?!

For me that's a fookin' lot!


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## kuso (Oct 11, 2002)

Thats about what I do for legs/back/chest!

Didn`t see thats what you wee doing though, but fuck it, I wanna read you bulk! LOL


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## Robboe (Oct 11, 2002)

well maybe i'll set up some sort of weekly or fortnightly update thing letting you all know my progress.

I seriously doubt it'll be an everyday thing though.


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## kuso (Oct 11, 2002)

I guess I could live with weekly....fortnightly could be pushing the friendship though


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## Robboe (Oct 11, 2002)

lol!


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## Yanick (Oct 11, 2002)

how much is a fortnight again? 14 days?


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## Twin Peak (Oct 11, 2002)

8-12 sets is what I do for just about every body part.  I always thought that was relatively low until I came her.  

Rob, just bought some 1-test, liquid version from VPX, GoPro recommended it.


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## Yanick (Oct 11, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> 8-12 sets is what I do for just about every body part.  I always thought that was relatively low until I came her.



I was the same way, except i realized my volume was not so low when i joined WBB.



> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Rob, just bought some 1-test, liquid version from VPX, GoPro recommended it.



I'm hearing good things about pro-hormones recently, but i'm also hearing that they might be banned pretty soon.  I think schedule III, not too sure though.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 11, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> 8-12 sets is what I do for just about every body part.  I always thought that was relatively low until I came her.
> 
> Rob, just bought some 1-test, liquid version from VPX, GoPro recommended it.



No, 8-12 is fucking loads as far as i'm concerned lol. I nearly had a cardiac arrest watching Arnold train in Puming Iron lmao.

I'm pissed as a fart right now BTW.

Is the VPX the oral stuff? Syringe oral stuff, sorry?

Cool, cool. I'll be watching you man, good stuff. Like i told ya, i'd personally go transdermal, but what the fuck eh? 

Yan, that Bill will take several months to pass if it ever does. Plenty of time to buy all you need for a several cycles


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## lina (Oct 11, 2002)

Hey how did I miss that pic?

Looking lean! 

Yeah would be interesting to follow your bulk as well...beer, beer and more beer?


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## Robboe (Oct 12, 2002)

Thanks Lina.

I think it'd be closer to beer, beer, chocolate and more beer.

With some wenches and debauchary slotted in there somewhere for good measure.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 14, 2002)

Yeah Rob its the oral syringe stuff.  I don't know, something about the transdermal was kinda creepy, maybe next time!

GoPro said to use a 6 week cycle.  I am going to start around 11/1, it'll be in my journal.  I am going to stop all other "supps".

Read about the HST, sounds interesting.  I'd like to try it, maybe after the new year, or in the summer, we shall see.  Have you ever tried it?

Yeah, Arnold used to do 25-35 sets per BP!  Insane.


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## Robboe (Oct 14, 2002)

No, never tried a proper HST cycle.

But like i said, i'm sorta adopting some of the principles for my next routine.

I'll take the 1-test talk into your journal. It'll be more suited there, since you are the one using it.


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## Tank316 (Oct 14, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it seems after all this time to see my pic no one really gives a shit anymore.


i have'nt posted much here TCD, i have been reading alot though. and i find it very interesting. looks like you leaned up alot.


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## Robboe (Oct 14, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Tank316 *_
> i have'nt posted much here TCD, i have been reading alot though. and i find it very interesting. looks like you leaned up alot.



Ah thanks man. It means a lot, it really does. Although i may not necessarily let on with my exterior. There's just something attractive about being a pompous idiot. lol.

I have leaned a lot yeah - dropped about 20lbs altogether. I'll let you know how much muscle i think i've dropped once i refill glycogen properly (i.e. go back onto a carb-based diet, which is next week, incidentally). Once i refill, i'll make a proper conclusion of NHE. It's hard to see how much muscle you've lost when you're depleted. As it stands right now, i'd guesstimate only a couple of lbs. Which for a natural trainer, IMO, is great. But you never know, wtiht the frequent carb loads i may have even added muscle.

About NHE, I can tell you now straight off i like it cause it's been piss-easy to stick to. 

Next week when i go back to 40/30/30 (it's been a well over a year since i've done a predominantly carb-based diet actually) i plan to keep cals in deficit so any weight gain will be purely water/glycogen weight gain. From there i can adjust calories so i only gain a small amount of weight each week (i'm aiming for about 0.5lbs, so 2-4lbs a month, hopefully onloy muscle, but in a realistic sense, only 2-3 of this will be muscle).

If i went straight into calorie surplus, any 'real' weight gain would be hard to assess along with the water/glycogen weight gain.

I really wanna try some 1-test too, soon.


----------



## kuso (Oct 14, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> 
> I really wanna try some 1-test too, soon.



I know we`ve been talking about it in TP`s thread recently, but I`m sure I read somewhere in the supps forum a while ago, where you thought 1-test wasn`t something you wanted to try. Was I just misunderstanding or have you read/heard something that has changed your mind?


----------



## Robboe (Oct 14, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> 
> 
> I know we`ve been talking about it in TP`s thread recently, but I`m sure I read somewhere in the supps forum a while ago, where you thought 1-test wasn`t something you wanted to try. Was I just misunderstanding or have you read/heard something that has changed your mind?




Hmmm...I don't recall thinking or saying that.

Was it in particular respect of something?

A few months back (before i worked over the summer) my cash flow was zero (it's back at zero now i'm back at university too, but i've saved a good deal) which may have influenced any supplement descisions, so i may have made reference to it like that i.e. i won't use it cause i can't afford it.

Different story now though.


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## kuso (Oct 14, 2002)

I`m not usure....I think there was a post in a thread on ONE where you mentioned something....could be another member I`m thinking of though......I`ll have a look when I get a chance 

Doesn`t matter anyway


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## kuso (Oct 14, 2002)

TCD, you are right, you didn`t say anything of the sort, it was just the impression I got from your posts in this thread  

My bad!


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## Robboe (Oct 14, 2002)

Ah ok, i see.

On a side note, from reading that thread, one of my major problems when talking about pro-hormones is when i don't distinguish between the 'decent' ones and the original shitty ones from '96.


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## cytrix (Oct 14, 2002)

Two questions for you:

TCD, why don't you stay on NHE, and just do the bodybuilders eating plan? I mean, with everything we know about carbs and the effect on our health due to increased insulin levels, why go back to a carb based diet? 

Another question, did you keep losing body fat even though you ate a lot of chocolate and stuff and plenty of carbs and more fat in general on your carb ups?


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## Robboe (Oct 15, 2002)

1. there's lots of reasons why carb-based diets are better from a performance as well as anabolic perspective. Besides, i've tried the whole getting most of your cals from fat thing and it's not as much fun as it sounds. Seriously, after 2000kcals worth of eating, most being fat, and the requirement of another 1000kcals for the day and you get sick of it real quick.

Besides, carb based diets don't always mean chronically high insulin levels. Humans are omnivores remember. And carbs aren't evil.

And i've since been reading about overfeeding on fat basically results in like 98% of the fat being stored. That is, if i ate 2500kcals of fat, and my maintenance calories are set at 2000kcals, 98% of those extra 500kcals of fat will be stored as fat. Overfeeding on carbs is a different story, because of the leptin aspect, but also because you have the give-way aspect of glycogen storage and thermogenesis (which fat is extremely poor at). 

And i fancy a change.

As far as your second question goes, it's something i really don't wanna answer in all honesty.

Yes, i managed to continue dropping fat besides my shitty-eating carb loads. But in hindsight, it's not something i really want to advertise or advise to others.

Fair enough, if cravings are killing you that much have _some_ of the food that you like, don't focus your carb loads primarily around them i have done.

But processed sugars and jukn food are not ideal for carb loads, or refeeds in general really.

I reckon, looking back, i may have hindered my fat loss efforts a bit by doing these kinds of carb loads. Sure, i got lean, but without the chocolate and stuff, i reckon i could prolly be sitting here a bit leaner today. How significant the difference would be is anyone's guess though.

May be the difference of a few lbs maybe?

May be the difference between a good sixpack and this keg i still currently sport?

Who knows?


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## perfecto (Oct 15, 2002)

Dude, ive just been reading through this WHOLE thread today and i gotta thank you about how much ive learnt, thanx dude!


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## Robboe (Oct 15, 2002)

I would seriously not have had the patience to do that, but power to ya.

Just trained chest and tris, shoulders too, kinda. Decent session.

chest: 7 sets
delts: 2 sets (side laterals)
tris: 2 sets (CGBP)

I've since begun my last carb load of this NHE campaign.

Feeling quite teary eyed in all fairness. Not really of course.

I'm actually really looking forward to a new diet and a new split. And the ONE when it get's it's ass here.


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## perfecto (Oct 15, 2002)

How do you know when its time to do a carb load and should you go lifting/cardio straight after it?


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## Robboe (Oct 15, 2002)

Well, with NHE it's generally every 3rd and then 4th day, but i have rescheduled carb loads for various reasons or missed them totally (to experiment).

Usually i'd only start the carb load a few hours before bed time, but recently on saturdays i've just used the day as a sort of 'high-sugar' cheat day and today, since it's the last, i just started straight after training with some dextrose in my protein.

I'd feel too bloated to train after a load.


----------



## perfecto (Oct 15, 2002)

Oh dude and also when ive been reading through this thread i noticed you drink like once a week thats how i am aswell, cept we dont drink beers, we just down half to 3/4 of smirnoff 750mls, you recon all that vodka would be a sufficient amount of carbs for a refeed?


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## Robboe (Oct 15, 2002)

Nice try.

Firstly, alcohol doesn't refill glycogen like 'normal' carbs do. It basically just gets metabolised and expelled straight away. It's a toxin to the body, so it has priority. Anything eaten with or on top of alcohol consumption = gets stored as fat.

Secondly, refeeds are to boost leptin by increasing the end product (some glucosamine stuff, can't remember the exact name: UD-acetylglucosamine or some shit like that) so the body thinks it's in a fed state.

I don't recall exactly, but i don't think alcool is metabolised via the hexosamine biosynthetic pathway. Thus, it doesn't boost leptin. Or doesn't do much for it.

Basically, alcohol fucks your system up (although not really from once a week drinking) and gets you fat. It's amazing how it is so popular really.

That said, i do enjoy a good drink - but only if it's with my friends or the people i love. I don't just sit and have a beer in the house or whatever. I really don't see the point personally. However, i limit my shennanigans to once a week to try and perform some kind of damage limitation of damage control.

If you really wanna boost leptin, you gotta eat carbs, spill over glycogen stores (or have them resistant enough for carbs consumed to go straight) to fat cells so they can be metabolised via the hexosamine biosynthetic pathway and increase the acetylglucosamine end product and signal leptin expression.

Unfortunately, alchol doesn't really do this, so in all fairness, on a cut (or any diet for that matter, even bulking) it's useless.

Unfortunately.


----------



## perfecto (Oct 15, 2002)

oh thats fucked i knew something so gr8 cant be good for you, but do you recon drinking in the volume i just mentioned once a week and like you said not eating shit whilst your pissed would hinder fait loss or muscle gain?


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## Robboe (Oct 15, 2002)

Depends how fat/lean you are and how long you've been dieting.

If you're ~15% ish you can still drop fat and get away with drinking once a week.

However, after 12-20 weeks of dieting you're sub 10%, and your body is resisting going any further, then you're gonna see problems.

There's no set limit for anyone where drinking is 'ok' compared to when it will cause a problem. It just depends how happy your body is with getting leaner.

You probably have a really skinny/lean friend with a fast-ass metabolism. We all do. I have one, the bastard. One of my best mates too. How ironic is it that i seriously hate the lad? lol. Anyhoo, you'll notice he eats shit and drinks frequently and still maintains his level of leaneancy? 

His body is quite happy to be that lean, so has no problem ramping up metabolism to burn off extra cals and keep him nice and trim.

If you're really interested in why this is biochemically, it's related to his level of insulin sensitivity.

Basically, he's more leptin-sensitive, so his body is happy to recieve the amount of leptin it does (which is probably small since he has little fat, unless other signallers of leptin expression give out an ass-load, i dunno. note: bodyfat and incoming cals the _primary_ and most significant, but not the only means from which leptin is released).

Someone who is leptin resistant (read: an obese person), well, their bodies are never quite content with the amount of leptin being recieved (basically because it's not. They're 'resistant' to it). So without this leptin, other signallers don't work, like appetite suppressing hormones and neuropeptides like CRH, CCK, bombesin, a-MSH, GLP and all the rest bare little effect.

However, the appetite signalling hormones and neuropeptides like NPY, ARGP, MCH and the orexins etc... are running rampant, making them hungry as shit. All the time. So they eat. All the time. The principle is the same for anyone, even thought they're not obese.

So basically, when you diet, calories are lower (so less acetylglucosamine end product and less leptin) and bodyfat starts to reduce (so less leptin being released).

If you're less sensitive to leptin, after a while, leptin drops, the lack of it signals catabolism from lots of nasty-ass hormones and stimulate cravings from other nasty-ass hormones and slow fat loss right down due to other nasty-ass hormones.

So dropping fat and getting sweet-ass lean is a bitch.

However, if you're more leptin sensitive, like my "mate", Chris, the body keeps things ticking along fine despite losing fat and lower calories because it's happy with the amount of leptin it's recieving.

So we collectively, as fattys, fucking hate their guts.

Once leptin is low and you've been in calorie deficit for a while and you're less sensitive to leptin, your system is already fucked up, or in the process of fucking up. Alcohol furthers this effect and makes fat loss a bastard. It really is something you could do without at this time.

So, once you get real lean, cut the drink totally. Simple.


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## Robboe (Oct 15, 2002)

It's called : "UDP-N-acetylglucosamine".


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## perfecto (Oct 15, 2002)

oh dude that sux ass...i guess im gonna have to stick to spliffs 

btw thanx for all the long posts


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## Robboe (Oct 15, 2002)

Let's not get started on the effect cannabis has on metabolism and the brain, the latter being the control centre for every process of the body. Mess with that and...


You want a buzz?

Get high on life.


----------



## perfecto (Oct 15, 2002)

> You want a buzz?
> 
> Get high on life.



Or stick a fork into a toaster


----------



## perfecto (Oct 15, 2002)

But seriously what effects does weed have on the metabolism, im very interested to know, do you have any links for this question?


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## Robboe (Oct 15, 2002)

Well, it makes you hungry as hell, so you'll probably eat more.

It also retards testosterone.

go here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=PubMed

and type in 'THC AND Testosterone' and see what you get.

Also, as far as fat loss goes, a study got a bunch of HIV patients and fed them THC (the active stuff in cannabis) to see what would happen. HIV patients usually lose a shit load of weight and die from the infection, so anything to make them eat more is a blessing.

Now, the folk they chose were really fucked up as far as the progression of the disease goes, really in the latter stages of death it seems, anyhoo, they managed to increase bodyfat percentage by 1% and gain half a kilo and revved their appetite up somewhat.

There's actually a shit-load more. At the same link, type in 'THC and weight loss' and read some abstracts.


Basically, the appetite stimulating effects of THC, especially during the latter stages, are not welcome on a cut when cravings and hunger are already very evident.


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## perfecto (Oct 15, 2002)

Sweet thanx for that info, ill check them out right away, but basicly everything that your saying is in regards to the junk and shit people eat whilst there stoned got the case of the munkies, yet there is actually nothing to say (i havnt read the articles yet so dont bust me up) that it effects fat loss or muscle gain otherwise?

Also, i herd that THC actually speeds up your metabolism? What you think?


----------



## Robboe (Oct 15, 2002)

I dunno if it actually speeds up your metabolism as much as it does stimulate appetite stimulating hormones, which may give the deception that it's speeding up your metabolism.


Directly, i dunno if it hampers fat loss. I'd need to look at it quicker.

However, it slows CNS output down considerably and messes with co-ordination (sorta like alcohol), so all the metabolic processes are nulled or slowed somewhat, so you can forget about thermogenesis from the most fat burning hormones of the body (catecholamines).

I just found out it promotes prolactation. Can you say gyno?

Actually, prolactation is involved in fat loss somehow. I can;t for the life of me recall what though. But the drug theoreticised by Lyle McDonald, Bromocriptine, is a prolactation inhibitor so can help with getting rid of fat. Apparently. I'm still waiting on feedback from a few people using it.

And it may also stimulate lipoprotein lipase, the lipase responsible for promoting fat storage. 

From what i can gather it may also stimulate insulin independantly of glucose.

And it suppresses the hypothalamic-pituitary axis, meaning less hGH, probably also the mechanism it retard testosterone by. This also means more cortisol by the way.

So it's not looking good.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 15, 2002)

By the way, for anyone interested, i did inclines today for the first time in a long while. I think i'll keep them on for a while.


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## perfecto (Oct 15, 2002)

Fair play, although everything you just wrote was damm hard to understand and i had to read over it 4 times, i think i get the jist 
But there must be some sort of bellcurve or something because, i know a bunch of people, who were really fat and then started smoking grass pretty heavy and then i saw them a few months later or say half a year and these people were skinny as, like they lost alot of weight, infact i can think of 5 examples...

i dunno why im persuing this talk of weed smoking, im not a big weed smoker but i just think there is some kinda contradiction...

btw, sorry for bugging you about this shit bro


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## Robboe (Oct 15, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by perfecto *_
> Fair play, although everything you just wrote was damm hard to understand and i had to read over it 4 times, i think i get the jist
> But there must be some sort of bellcurve or something because, i know a bunch of people, who were really fat and then started smoking grass pretty heavy and then i saw them a few months later or say half a year and these people were skinny as, like they lost alot of weight, infact i can think of 5 examples...




I know of some too.

But then again, it wasn't the cannabis that caused it.

The cannabis had shifted them onto harder drugs and they were currently employing the good ol' services of toot.

Cocaine for anyone unsure.

Cocaine is one hell of a CNS stimulator. Cranks up catecholamine output a shit load.

Agonises or antagonises dopamine receptors too, i think.

And blunts appetite to hell.


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## perfecto (Oct 15, 2002)

Yer one of my mates the dumbfuck, was bragging to me about how much weight hes lost since he started popping exstacy, i was like shit bro whats wrong with you!!


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## Twin Peak (Oct 15, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> By the way, for anyone interested, i did inclines today for the first time in a long while. I think i'll keep them on for a while.




What is this world coming to!!!


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## Robboe (Oct 15, 2002)

Yeah, Lucifer just called. Says it's getting cold and he wants his jacket back.



Anyhoo, main reason being, i need to up my volume a bit, and i'm running out of exercises for chest.

It's gonna look like this:

BB (Or DB depending on gym business) Bench - 2 sets
Weighted dips - 2 sets
Decline machine press - 2 sets
Incline DB press - 2 sets
Incline flyes - 2 sets  (flat flyes aggrivate my shoulders).

At least that's what i'm toying with anyway.

back will probably look as such:

Weight wide-grip chins - 2 sets
BB (or T bar) rows - 2 sets
Close-grip pulldowns - 2 sets
Low pulley row - 2 sets
DB shrugs - 2 sets

Legs is stumping me for volume. Seriously.

Squats - 2 sets
SLDLs - 2 sets
Smith machine squats - 2 sets (yes, you read right, smith machine).
Hack squats - 2 sets
Leg press - 2 sets

Then an extra 2 sets of leg curls maybe.

Shoulders will be:

Seated DB press - 2 sets
Side laterals - 2 sets

[not sure on these yet:
front raises - 2 sets
rear laterals - 2 sets]

triceps/biceps:

Close-grip bench - 2 sets
BB/EZ curl (maybe preacher?) - 2 sets
seated skulls - 2 sets
DB curl - 1 set

Prolly won't go past failure on the arm or shoulder exercises. Not totally sure though, cause the 1-test will really change lots of variables. Undecided.

Oh, calf training will be maybe 6-8 sets (that's HUGE for me for calves, for any bodypart really) of seated and standing raises. I wish my gym had a free weight standing calf raise. The machine is fixed on 120k, which i can easily do 20 reps for fun with.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 15, 2002)

Wow that is a lot of volume for you.  Personally I'd add more pressing for shoulders, but I know you won't.

I am curious to hear what you change b/c of the 1-test.  When will you start it anyway?  I'd love to start at the same time but I don't think I can wait past next week.


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## Robboe (Oct 15, 2002)

Well i just ordered it earlier today. I'll have to wait for it to arrive, which will probably be before the weekend with any luck (global priority mail).

However, like i mentioned in some previous posting, i wanna do one week of my carb-based diet alone to assess pure glycogen weight gain (while keeping in calorie deficit so i _may_ drop some fat, but not enough to significantly affect my glycogen/water weight). I wanna see how much weight i gain from this to assess NHE properly.

But then i may start the week after that.


What would you say for extra pressing? More sets or another exercise?


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## Twin Peak (Oct 15, 2002)

I'd throw in 2 sets of heavy military presses for good measure.  Always liked them.  I have worked up to 275 in the past, but just started doing shoulders directly again last week.  Maybe after the 1-test I'll get 315 for some reps, a long time goal.  I'd also like to bench 450....


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## Robboe (Oct 15, 2002)

Crazy weights there dude.

Maybe i will add in some militaries. Maybe i will.

I think first arm session i'll see how i fell with 2 sets.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 15, 2002)

Funny how are training philosophies are so different.

Don't know if I can wait an extra week.  We'll see but I doubt it.

Any issues/concerns with drinking while on 1-test?  I'm not an alchy but I like my drink!  I'll stay away if I have to.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 15, 2002)

I can't even get a pump with two sets?  You feel "done" with 2?


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## Robboe (Oct 15, 2002)

Yep, usually.

Even if i don't "feel" like i've done the job muscular wise, i still don't go any further.

It's actually an amazing gift to have, as weird as that sounds. If i set out to lift more than the previous week, or for more reps, and i get that task achieved, my 2 sets is all i need.

I say i'm gifted because for most it is harder _not_ to do more sets once the job is done than to continue on doing more work.

I also realise the potential problems that can arise from "just making sure" sets. I see it everyday in my gym.

Anyhoo, i'd limit drinking yeah, but once a week is fine. ONE ain't gonna stop my shennanigans.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 15, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I say i'm gifted because for most it is harder _not_ to do more sets once the job is done than to continue on doing more work.



I agree.  Except that assumes that you have gotten the job done.  Not saying you don't -- I obviously can't be the judge of that.


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## Robboe (Oct 16, 2002)

I know what you mean, but like i said, i aim to lift more than the previous week.

It's basic progressive overload.

In fact, i do everything progressively.

I try to bang this fact over to the newer lifters, but you're not gonna go from benching 100lbs to 200lbs in a week. Nor are you gonna go from 100lbs to 150lbs in 2 weeks.

How can, however, go from 100lbs to 200lbs in _several_ weeks, say, adding 5lbs each week (or adding reps with the same weight) while getting good growth in the process.

It's all about progressively getting bigger, progressively getting stronger and progressively getting leaner.

I'm not talking at you like a retard or anewbie here though lol, just illustarting my point.

So, if i can go into the gym and lift 175lbs above my head on militaries for say 6 good reps. The next week, i can go in and lift either 185lbs or 175lbs for 8 reps, i know i've done the job.

If i manage this every week (a bit unrealistic, i know, but lets go with it) and i eat like a champ and gain weight (higher muscle to fat gain ratio due to the lifting) then even with low volume, over time i'll get progressively bigger and progressively stronger.

Like i said, it's unrealistic, cause the body can only realistically lift so much weight and you can't expect all factors to be perfect so that you progress every week (stress, work, life etc...).

But until someone has been lifting 10 years like you, it'll do.

Maybe once i've been lifting that long i'll have to experiment with other techniques, like GP's periodisation routine thingie.

But then again, that's not to say that even the most advanced lifter can't benefit from this style of work.

I'm sure you get my gist.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 16, 2002)

I do, and I agree whole-heartedly.  I guess for me the point is, if/when I train with such low volume, not only will I not PROgress, I will REgress in the following week.  That might not hold true if it was HST style (i.e. 3 times oer week) but it is if I train once per.

I do believe that such low volume can/has worked.  Look at Menser and Yates.  I just don't believe that most of us can train with the intensity they have/do.  I train harder than anyone I know at my gym.  But I can't train intense enough to make that work -- yet!

BTW, when I use the word intensity I mean the ability to continue past and through the pain barrier where your mind pleads to stop and in fact convinces you body that you have hit failure, but you push through.  How far you push through that barrier is the level of intensity with which you train.

Bottom line, I agree.  If you are progressing, it is working!


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## Yanick (Oct 16, 2002)

Rob, TP,

What are your opinions on the belief that failure and beyond type training will lead to CNS burnout and all that.

I have pretty much adopted that theory, i always leave 1 or 2 reps in the hole when i finish my set, but i did up my volume as i think that volume with medium intensity (% 1RM, not percieved effort) is the key to hypertrophy, and that frequency can/should be increased as one progresses.  But that is just my opinion.


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## Robboe (Oct 16, 2002)

This may sound daft, but i'll reply later.

My head is currently trying to decipher someone's appauling transcription of a song a like in tablature form and i'm trying to learn (well, work out) the _real_ way to play it.

Dunno why, but if my head is in music it's totally miles from lifting. It's another one of my 'escape routes' from everyday stress of other shit.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 16, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> Rob, TP,
> 
> What are your opinions on the belief that failure and beyond type training will lead to CNS burnout and all that.
> ...



Personally, I do not think that is the most effective way of training for most people.  I am a FIRM believe in intensity, as I defined above.  Which means to failure and beyond.  Always.

Well, almost always.  The CNS, muscles, tendons, and ligamnets tend to take a beating, and you have to cycle back every now and then.  For me it is obvious when I need to train lighter for a week or two or even take a week off.

I think your method will work, especially for relatively new trainers.  To me, the key to long term growth, especially at an advanced state, is continually increasing your intestity by working longer in the "pain zone."

BTW, although I have been training for 10 years, I have not trained consectutively for more than 3 years at a time, w/o taking at least a year off.  I have currently been "on" for 13 months, with a 1 year layoff before that.


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## Yanick (Oct 16, 2002)

Thanks TP, i used to think the same way and when i heard of doing this i almost flipped.  Who'da thunk it?  But you would be surprised what six sets of squats, even not going to failure, can do to you.  And not going to failure doesn't exactly mean you don't work hard, i stop when i know that the next rep i do, i will probably need to cheat or i will just not get it.

On a side note, TCD, have you been following the PH's for teens thread on Avant forums?  I would like to know what you think about all this, as your's is another opinion which is of high value in my book.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 16, 2002)

No I wouldn't be surprised.  Again, it depends on the person as well as the level of training.

If you are making gets greeat, keep at it.  Some day you will level off and then you will need to add intensity (which can be done in a number of ways).

But if one were to go from not lifting to training with the intensity of Yates, tha person would miss out on years of growth.  As Rob said, it is about progression, in every way.


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## Yanick (Oct 16, 2002)

Okay i'll buy that.


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## ZECH (Oct 16, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> 
> On a side note, TCD, have you been following the PH's for teens thread on Avant forums?  I would like to know what you think about all this, as your's is another opinion which is of high value in my book.




Yanick....Looks to me like you are looking for an excuse to do PH's.
I am not knocking you so don't get mad! Truth is, there is not enough evidence out for teens or adults that tell us what long terms affects there will be. Just do what you said.....read all you can and make the most responsible decision you can. If you decide to do them, good luck. But just remember, you or I really don't know what will happen down the road. Is it worth it??


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## Yanick (Oct 16, 2002)

dg,

thats what i'm trying to do.  I'm bugging my mom (she's a nurse), my teachers anyone who might know anything about this, to get me some books/resources.  Even if i try it, it would only be one short cycle, i don't have the financial resources to drop that much money on 'supps.'

but yes we don't know what will happen in the future, but i don't like to look at it that way, i want to make the most of my life and be able to look back and say that i truly enjoyed myself.  I don't like saying, "you don't know what will happen later on," because i will live in fear of trying anything.

But then again, its not like i won't be able to get big if i don't use them...oh this is becoming a pain in the ass.  I'm just going to do some research and see where it takes me.


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## ZECH (Oct 16, 2002)

We all feel that way bro!! And you're right......you can still get huge even if they ban them. You have lots of good years left!


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## ZECH (Oct 16, 2002)

And from what I've seen and heard, people your age get less effects from PH's because your natural test level is so much higher!


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## Yanick (Oct 16, 2002)

Oh boy, better hope Dante doesn't see that comment, lol.

Refer to the bb.com thread that was posted, Par made some great comments on the fact that the difference in increase of test is not so significant (between teen, and adult).


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## ZECH (Oct 16, 2002)

Can you get me that link? I'm not to sure I belive that. I thought it was a well known fact that test levels started dropping off after 30 or so?


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## Yanick (Oct 16, 2002)

umm, yeah gimme a sec.

Found it


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## Robboe (Oct 16, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> Rob, TP,
> 
> What are your opinions on the belief that failure and beyond type training will lead to CNS burnout and all that.




Well you can fuck your CNS over from too much training, yes.

Whether it happens over several weeks or several months i dunno. I once tried the one-set per exercise, but after about 4 weeks i did start to digress. Albeit, i think i was dieting at the time.

I've since employed the technique of going to and beyond failure every _other_ week and it worked well and still does for the most part (calorie deficit aside).

Just because i do low volume doesn't mean i do any of that yates/menzter/jones style training, cause i don't. Not properly anyway.

I actually don't see the big deal. ~6 working sets for a large bodypart seems more than reasonable to me. I wouldn't consider it 'low volume' per se.


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## Robboe (Oct 16, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> On a side note, TCD, have you been following the PH's for teens thread on Avant forums?  I would like to know what you think about all this, as your's is another opinion which is of high value in my book.




Well, if we're talking 14-16 then i'd say don't do it.

But maybe 18 an above...maybe.

I really dunno man. If you're around about 18 ish and feel responsible and mature enough to do it, and you have a good idea of how your body reacts to certain stimulii and can make the most of it, then go for it.


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## Robboe (Oct 16, 2002)

Ok, as promised, in keeping with the original reason for this thread lol, here's the new diet i'll follow for seven days starting this saturday. In one sense, it's a bit pointless posting this since the week after i'll start the 1-test and double my calories to at least 4000kcals, depending on my weight following the first week of this diet (once my glycogen and water is there).

As stated, i'll still be calorie deficit so any weight gain will be glycogen/water weight - pssibly even dropping some more fat.

Meal one
50g oats		34g C, 5.9g P, 3.6g F
2 whole eggs		0g C, 13.4g P, 11g F
2 egg whites		0g C, 7g P, 0g F

Total = 34g C, 26.3g P, 14.6g F

Meal two
2 slices brown bread		28.2g C, 6.8g P, 1.8g F
½ tin tuna			0g C, 19.5g P, 0.4g F
1 TBSP mayo			1g C, 0.1g P, 4.5g F

Total = 29.2g C, 26.4g P, 6.7g F

Meal three

Same as meal two.

Total = 29.2g C, 26.4g P, 6.7g F

Meal four

50g oats		34g C, 5.9g P, 3.6g F
~100g chicken breast	0g C, 23g P, 1.2g F
1 TSP walnut oil 	0g C, 0g P, 4.5g F

Total = 34g C, 28.9g P, 9.3g F

Meal five

50g oats		34g C, 5.9g P, 3.6g F
3 whole eggs		0g C, 20.1g P, 16.5g F

Total = 34g C, 26g P, 20.1g F

Meal six

Tin tuna 		0g C, 39g P, 0.9g F
44g brown rice	33g C, 3.5g P, 2g F
1 TSP oil		0g C, 0g P, 4.5g F

Total = 33g C, 42.5g P, 7.4g F

Daily totals = 192.4g C, 172.4g P, 62.6g F

2022.6kcals  


Now, my daily totals are off slightly cause i made a quick adjustment in one of the meals, so the numbers are slightly out overall, but it's a matter of a few calories so i'm not gonna kill myself re-working it out (feeling lazy right now, but anyone feels like it, be my guest).

Now, on training days, throw in another meal of 50g dextrose and 2 scoops of simply whey and on three evenings a week, switch the tuna and rice meal to a steak and rice meal (i can only afford steak 3 times a week).

I'll re-write this (or basically just add another meal and lot more food overall) and get the cals up to 4000 and post it next week.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 17, 2002)

Hey Rob, how are you going to double your calories if you can't afford steak?


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## Yanick (Oct 17, 2002)

Cool, thanks TCD.  I'm totally sold on the idea of PH's, stupid bastards in Washington, if only they wouldn't make it illegal i would just wait till i was 20ish, i don't have a problem with that.  But i'm still researching all of this (to see if i really should/should not try a cycle), its a completely new field for me, so i'm not just going to jump into something.


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## Robboe (Oct 17, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Hey Rob, how are you going to double your calories if you can't afford steak?




Quite easy. You won't believe how much food i can happily eat in a day. It's half the reason i train actually. If i didn't train, i'd be a big fat(ter) galoot.

~4000kcals

40c/30p/30f

4000 * .4 = 1600 / 4 = 400g carbs
4000 * .3 = 1200 / 4 = 300g pro
4000 * .3 = 1200 / 9 = 133g fat

It's not that much when you look at it like that.

I'm basically gonna eat more of the foods listed, but also add: (lots of) cottage cheese, nuts (cashews), sweet potato.

Seriously, it's not hard. I find it harder _restricting_ my food intake.


Yan, no problem, but like i've asked TP, call me Rob. I prefer formal speech.


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## Yanick (Oct 17, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Yan, no problem, but like i've asked TP, call me Rob. I prefer formal speech.



Oh yeah, my bad Rob, i'm just used to calling everyone (well most people) by their forum handles.

On a side note, i can put away calories pretty easily also.  Cutting is a bitch because i hate eating like a bird.


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## Robboe (Oct 17, 2002)

Me too. I also hate the fact that my weight goes down, even thought it's fat loss. It's strange really, but i'm always considering the opportunity cost - i.e. the time taken during cutting, i wonder how much bigger i could be using that time gaining instead.

As far as i'm concerned, i'm in this for life, or at least until i can't physically train, so in that regards i guess it is but a grain of sand on a beach.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 17, 2002)

What I mean was if you don't have the money to buy steak more than three times, how do youhave the money to buy twice as much food?


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## Yanick (Oct 17, 2002)

That sand in the beach analogy is great, but it doesn't really work.  I guess my teenage-ness shows through sometimes because i just want to get as big as possible as fast as possible.  Although i realize i'm only 17 and i have years upon years of training in front of me.

I guess my logical mind turns off sometimes and my teenage mind turns on, or something along those lines.


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## ZECH (Oct 17, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> That sand in the beach analogy is great, but it doesn't really work.  I guess my teenage-ness shows through sometimes because i just want to get as big as possible as fast as possible.  Although i realize i'm only 17 and i have years upon years of training in front of me.
> 
> I guess my logical mind turns off sometimes and my teenage mind turns on, or something along those lines.



Anyone here that has trained a while can tell you unless you do some serious juicing, it takes time to get big(years not months). But it will progress! Just give it time!


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## Yanick (Oct 17, 2002)

dg,

i worded my post worded, i should've said that it doesn't _always_ work, as i do realize it takes time.  Hence my last statement about my teenage mind kicking in sometimes.


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## Robboe (Oct 17, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> What I mean was if you don't have the money to buy steak more than three times, how do youhave the money to buy twice as much food?




3 good sized steaks for me cost about 8 squids. and they only supply one meal each.

Tuna, eggs and cottage cheese are cheap as hell and supply many meals with much protein and many calories.


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## Robboe (Oct 18, 2002)

Trained back last night. I left the bicep work out again, not because of reluctancy, but because with the new split intoduction next week i'll be doing delts and arms on monday.

Quite looking forward to the change actually.

I did a large volume workout last night, actually. Mainly because i had TP in mind, in all honesty. 

 God, that sounds gay.

I think i did 11 sets in total. It would have been closer to 8, but for weighted chins i was doing heavier than usual weights with lower than usual reps. Mainly for the neural capacity of the lift. I want a big back, naturally, but i also want to focus on adding chinning strength, as mentioned earlier in this thread.

So i did 2 sets of 2 reps with a 20k plate round my waist, and then a set of 4 with 15k round my waist, and then 2 sets of bodyweight for 6 reps each, stopping shy of failure both times.

BB rows were very strong last night. 2 good sets.

Some close grip pulldowns, shy of failure both sets and some low pulley rows to finish. And some shrugs.

I think i'm gonna like doing large bodyparts on their own again. Purely because it means all my focus os on them, and i haven't got biceps or shoulders and triceps in the back of my mind.

ONE arrived today, too. Great service from 1fast.

I got this week of lower calories as i re-introduce the carbs and then the week after that, it's transdermal time.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 18, 2002)

I worked out a new training split -- more volume, more frequency, as well as a meal plan, around 4000 cals like yours but more protein and less carbs.  If I don't get to post it today, I'll post it Monday.


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## Robboe (Oct 18, 2002)

Yeah, i'm glad you reminded me actually, i need to write up my higher calorie plan. I haven't done it yet.

Are you gonna post your new routine or are we just gonna have to see it as you perform it and update with workouts?


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## Twin Peak (Oct 18, 2002)

I'll post it, just need some time to type.  Basically, its going to be a bit higher volume, and hit each BP directly to failure once, and then not to failure for "only" 1 exercise, 4 sets.

I am also going to create a chart with my weight, measurements and lifts for each week to really track this stuff.  Its to expensive not toknow if its worth it!


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## kuso (Oct 18, 2002)

TCD.....I was meaning to ask you........would you still up the cals so much if you were going to use ONE while cutting ( which I think Par recommened on his site ) ???


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## kuso (Oct 18, 2002)

that sounded fucking stupid...of course you would increase them as much....but how would you go about working it into a cutting diet....or you wouldn`t?


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## Robboe (Oct 18, 2002)

No, i'd go about cutting calories as usual (about 12kcals per lb and go from there). I'd just use the ONE to retain LBM.

In fact, i may even experiment with going very low calories on some days, since the androgen would help retain muscle and burn fat.

That is, if i was to use to for cutting. For these cycles i'm gaining all the way baby.


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## kuso (Oct 18, 2002)

Your 12 cals are per LBM lb or straight lb?

And in my previous post it should have said "of course you wouldN`T " lol

I`m also intersted....why the ONE and not ONE+?


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## Twin Peak (Oct 18, 2002)

If I like the stuff, I'll probably use it when cutting in the spring.

If Rob is right and I gain what he says, I should be able to compete next June at a shredded 205-210 range (I'd f'in huge at that weight!)


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## Robboe (Oct 18, 2002)

bodyweight. I never go off LBM alone. Fat cells are metabolically active too y'know  (albeit, no where near as active as muscle cells).

And they were. I dunno exactly how many calories i'm eating right now (last day of NHE today, actually). I basically started at a certain calorie range and got my macro breakdown, then from there every week i tweaked my macros where necessary and forgot about over calories. They're still considered, just not directly.

So, 10 weeks on of NHE (20 weeks dieting in total) and i have no clue what my calories are.

tomorrow they're definately gonna be about 12kcals per lb. I know this cause i just worked the diet out earlier this week.

I chose ONE because i don't want the bloat from oestrogen that comes with 4-AD. And i want to keep fat gain a minimum. If i increased oestrogen then i'm more than likely to add bodyfat. I don't want that.

besides, 1-test works for muscle building a bit more directly. 4-AD works more indirectly, by helping you get stronger so you can lift more. More lifted (providing everything else is sorted) = more muscle.

1-test bumps protein synthesis up directly, just like testosterone.

Y'know how as soon as lads hit puberty they seem to drop fat and put on a bit of muscle, despite not training? Yeah, that's from increases in test (and maybe related to hGH increases during adolescence).


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## Robboe (Oct 18, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> 
> If Rob is right and I gain what he says, I should be able to compete next June at a shredded 205-210 range (I'd f'in huge at that weight!)



TP, i'm looking into the whole oral vs transdermal thing.

Oral bioavailability = ~10-15% according to par deus.

Transdermal bioavailability = ~30-40%. ish.

So, theoretically, even if we use the same dosing of 1-test, i should make better use of it due to the higher bioavailability.

So, i _may_ make more gains than you. We'll just have to see, obviously. But from everything i've read, transdermal is 9 times out of 10 the better option. I reckon with transdermal you would definately pack on 12-15lbs.

With orals, providing your dose is high enough, you should make 12lbs or so. We'll just have to wait and see.


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## kuso (Oct 18, 2002)

So..TCD...unrelated, but what did you get hit for shipping on those two bottles from 1fast? I see you bought the last two as well....bastard lol


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## Robboe (Oct 18, 2002)

haha, i ordered on monday or tuesday, so i dunno if i got the last ones. Definately two of the last ones as it seems.

Once Mike gets back from the Olympia he should have more. So have patience. 

I think it works out at 128 english squids. And, if all goes to plan i my theory works as far as weight gain goes, it'll be 128 squids well spent.

I dunno if i typed my theory up here, but here it is again:

2 weeks on - ~12lbs
2 weeks off - 0-2 lbs
2 weeks on - ~8lbs
2 weeks off - 0-2lbs
2 weeks on - ~6-8lbs
4 weeks off - 0-4lbs
2 weeks on - ~6-8lbs (end of ONE)
2-4 weeks off - whatever

Now, if that works we're talking a good deal of muscle here!

I have no idea of steroid stacks or prices so i can't evaluate the opportunity cost of this vs gear, but it can't be too bad.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 18, 2002)

On a side note, the diet is written up.

Calories each day are about 4081kcals, with the exception of training days where calories will be the same, plus my post workout shake of 50g dextrose and 2 scoops of whey. It adds about 320kcals to the day, so about 4400kcals for training days.

I'll post the entire diet closer to the time.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 18, 2002)

It's about time that fucker posted!

I thought i'd broke the board there...


----------



## kuso (Oct 18, 2002)

LOL...I wondered what happened too!

So what are you going to use when coming off?


----------



## Robboe (Oct 18, 2002)

Well, what i posted in that other thread after ponyboy asked.

1. keeping calories up.
2. Keeping carbs up.
3. Training shy of failure
4. keeping lifting sessions below 40 minutes in duration.
5. Splitting EC into 6 smaller doses throughout the day (12.5mg E, 100mg C)
6. Chew nicotine gum (about 12mg, thrice daily in 4mg pieces).

The latter is a bit extreme for some people, but there's a lot of good reasons why it's a good supplement to use, whether cutting or bulking. I've been using it for cutting the past two weeks for various reasons. It's not too bad in all honesty.

And let's not go into smoking in front of your buddies to look cool vs using a drug intelligently to aid in improving your body. Not saying you would, but just to be sure.


----------



## kuso (Oct 18, 2002)

which thread where? lol

And no....I`ve been a smoker and won`t go back to that!  But I can see that using it sensibly may have some benifits


----------



## Robboe (Oct 18, 2002)

This thread. 

I understand about the ex-smoker thing. Don't want to re-ignite those nasty little nicotine cravings eh?


----------



## kuso (Oct 18, 2002)

Thanks for the link, and no...NO chance of re-igniting...cant stand the smell anymore........and........psychological scars LOL!


----------



## Robboe (Oct 18, 2002)

re: post cycle therapy

I just got some info i was waiting on from Dante about how long you need to follow up with the post cycle methods. Here's his PM:



> That depends on the cycle length. For a two-week cycle, then one week of lower training, with two-weeks of everything else (ECA, caloric intake, etc)should suffice. For a longer cycle (say, eight-weeks), then perhaps two weeks of lowered volume with 4 weeks of everything else.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dante




So, the way my cycles are planned, i'd be basically just finishing my post cycle therapy before starting another cycle.


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## perfecto (Oct 18, 2002)

chicken daddy, where can i get some info on the NHE diet?


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## Robboe (Oct 19, 2002)

www.extique.com


That's his website. The ask Rob section is a good read.

other than that, just reading this journal or buying the book.


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## Robboe (Oct 19, 2002)

Guess who is drunk? 

And horrendously cold right now.


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## Robboe (Oct 20, 2002)

Started new split today. four days a week from now on in. Started today with thighs. Nothing really new there then. Strength was sucky though. Clubbing the night previously took a lot out of my legs actually.

Summary:

11 sets in total.

3 sets squats
2 sets SLDL
2 sets hacks
2 sets leg press
2 sets leg curl

And then i was toast.

Stuck to diet properly for the first time since friday, which was nice.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 21, 2002)

11 sets wow!!!!

Rob, what are the names and authors of those books you have recommended?

BTW, started my 1-Test last night.


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## Robboe (Oct 21, 2002)

Got back from the brand new day. That is, my new delts and arms day, which i'll admit i wasn't really up for prior due to tiredness from too many late nights catching up with me, but i got into and really enjoyed it.

Here's a summary, since my weights are all sub-max and short of failure. I'll tell you next week whether i progress.

Shoulders: 5 sets.
triceps: 4 sets.
biceps: 3 sets.
forearms: 2 sets.

I actually mixed my tri and bi training. So i did 2 sets of CGBP and then did 2 sets on the preacher, then 2 sets on the pressdown and then 1 set of DB curls. I actually did my forearm wrist curls after the pressdown sets since i was at the cable stack at the time. Seemed practical.

My rep schemes were mixed as usual. More precisely, my first set was in the 4-8 rep range (actually, i never went lower than 6 reps this workout) and my second were in the 10-12 range.

Diet has been and will be sooooper today, except for a bunch of lush red, crunchy grapes i ate earlier, but it was post train so i'm not too concerned. In fact, i'm not concerned at all really.

TP, yeah, 11 sets for both quads and hams though, so i guess it's not _that_ high. But for me, that's a Herculean routine as far as i'm concerned. I'll get used to it.

Which books are you refering too? NHE? And what else?

I'll check your journal re: 1-test.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 21, 2002)

NHE, and I think you mentioned some others a while back.  They'll make good items on my xmas list.  Don't think people will want to put 1-test in my stocking!


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## Robboe (Oct 21, 2002)

'Natural Hormonal Enhancement' - Rob Faigan

From www.extique.com or, like me, from www.bodybuilding.com 

It's a really awkward book to get a hold of actually. Not the kind of book sold in the local bookstore. 

It took weeks to get here too, cause they ship it surface mail, so it took about 6 weeks, which was annoying, but i got it in the end.

As far as other books, i just got Devlin's Textbook of Biochemistry But i dunno if that's your cup of tea. It's not related to training directly in any form. It's just basic biochemistry, so it covers stuff like water, peptides, saccharides, lipids, genetics, cell biology and structure, basic physiology - shit like that. I'm just a sad geek who likes reading stuff like that.

Actually, for christmas i'd really like this book. Only problem - check the price!

I can get it second hand for a lot cheaper, so i may just chose that route. Again, it's not related to training directly, so i doubt if it's something you're really gonna be interested in? Of course, i may be wrong. You may have your white lab coat on right now lol.

'Supertraining' by Mel Siff is also a decent read for the most part. It's hellishly complicated and hard to read (i only managed a few pages when i had it in my possession, but i only lent it so had to return after a week or two). A lot of it is only theoretical though, so again, i dunno. It's also a pricey book that is hard to get a hold of. You can talk to Siff directly through the supertraining yahoo group if you like. 

Other than that, maybe buying the bromocriptine e-book from www.qfac.com ? It's the recent Lyle McDonald one. I really wanna read it, but i'd prefer a hard copy so i don't have to read it online. I'd rather read stuff before bed, during half time of football games - that sort of thing. One of these days i'll prolly break down and buy it if a hard copy doesn't seem to come out.

Can't think of any other books right now that may interest you.

Other than Keys to progress by Stuart McCallum (not sure if that's his second name or not, sorry). I've yet to read it, but it's recommended by a few people i respect.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 21, 2002)

Cool, thanks!


----------



## lina (Oct 22, 2002)

So you went from 220 to 196 lbs in one year?  That's like 24 lbs.. great job!   I like that you have not limited your social life/eating/drinking and have been able to mesh one with the other..

Did you measure your change in bf% or LBM?

Since you are not doing NHE anymore and your macros changed, why don't you start a new journal?


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 22, 2002)

BTW Rob, you are right, those books that are very technical are not my cup of tea.  Nope, no lab coat here.  I have neither the time nor the inclincation to read those, but the NHE book sounds interesting.  Anything good from the other books I'll just get from you!


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## Robboe (Oct 22, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by lina *_
> So you went from 220 to 196 lbs in one year?  That's like 24 lbs.. great job!   I like that you have not limited your social life/eating/drinking and have been able to mesh one with the other..



20 weeks actually, but you gotta consider the glycogen/water weight aspect i guess, although it wasn't as pronounced as most people experience, since i kinda bulked using similar principles (periodical carb loading etc...)



> Did you measure your change in bf% or LBM?



No, unfortunately not. I'd guesstimate a beginning bf% of 18-20% and a current bf% of about 12-13%. I'm not sure if that actually works out, let's see:

220 @ 20% = 44lbs fat, 176lbs LBM
196 @ 13% = 25.48lbs fat, 170.52lbs LBM

Net fat loss (44 - 25.48) = 18.52lbs
Net LBM loss (176 - 170.52) =  5.48lbs

Hmmmm...maybe. Sound reasonable. Of course, purely by carbing up i change this figure. The loss of LBM includes water/glycogen weight you recall. So, after a few days of regular carb feedings i can put on 3-4lbs without changing the bf% at all.

Such a small loss in muscle would also explain why my strength was quite static during the cut, except near the end maybe. In fact, during the early stages my strength continued to rise.

But like i say, that's purely speculation on my part. I can't guarantee those bf% numbers.



> Since you are not doing NHE anymore and your macros changed, why don't you start a new journal?




Well, i was gonna stop the journal altogether, but i was asked to continue to show how my gaining cycles go. I don't mind, only actual entries invloving weights and diet etc... will be few and far between. Just updates at certain intervals methinks.

I wonder if i can change the journal title to include something else???


----------



## Robboe (Oct 22, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> BTW Rob, you are right, those books that are very technical are not my cup of tea.  Nope, no lab coat here.  I have neither the time nor the inclincation to read those, but the NHE book sounds interesting.  Anything good from the other books I'll just get from you!




yeah, like i say, i'm just a sad geek.

In all honesty, with the sudden rush of Uni assignments i'm getting/just got is meaning i don't really have time to read them either.

NHE is a good read. You'll appreciate it.


----------



## Yanick (Oct 22, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, like i say, i'm just a sad geek.



you and me both rob 



> In all honesty, with the sudden rush of Uni assignments i'm getting/just got is meaning i don't really have time to read them either.
> 
> NHE is a good read. You'll appreciate it.



I'm also the same way as far as school/work are concerned.  Too much shit going on in my life, i can't get any learning done with school/work in the way.

also, TP, your fitday journal doesn't seem to be working.  When i click on the link in your sig, it says the journal doesn't exist.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 22, 2002)

Should be fixed now thanx to Rob!


----------



## lina (Oct 22, 2002)

I think only a mod can change the title of the thread...


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## QueenofSquats (Oct 22, 2002)

Hi TP,
I have posted numerous questions on high protein/mod fat/low carb lifstyle to educated myself more for my clients, I will appreciate if you can answer some:
In your opinion whats the ratio/% for this lifestyle is it p40/f40/c10???


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## Twin Peak (Oct 22, 2002)

Hey Queen, first if you want my input Rob's diary is not the best place.  Second, he may better be able to answer that Q anyway, third, 40/40/10 only adds up to 90, lol, and fourth, I don't believe that there is a "best" ratio.  One must try a few to figure out what works best.  That said, 50/40/10 and 50/30/20 would be my choices for someone who wanted to stick to low carbs.


----------



## QueenofSquats (Oct 22, 2002)

Cheers TP, 
Sorry for the typo...lol...was in a hurry...I win the bet from a personal trainer, he was wrong regarding the ratio...thanks again...hope you are having a great day...


----------



## Robboe (Oct 22, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by QueenofSquats *_
> Hi TP,
> I have posted numerous questions on high protein/mod fat/low carb lifstyle to educated myself more for my clients, I will appreciate if you can answer some:
> In your opinion whats the ratio/% for this lifestyle is it p40/f40/c10???




I'll post my opinion anyway.

Ratios are just guidelines. A lot like calorie counting. The number itself is not as important as how you manipulate it (i.e. increase cals from that base line or decrease).

Firstly, i believe the only ideal for low carb, higher fat diets is during calorie restriction. Low carb gaining is ok, but training on carbs is slightly more productive. I have experience with both carb-based cutting and gaining and low carb, higher fat based cutting and gaining. Unless you control overall calories, the overall picture is gonna end up the same (give or take a couple of lbs in either muscle or fat).

So if we're talking low carbs for cutting:

1. Ensure calorie deficit.
2. Ensure adequate protein.
3. Ensure sufficient EFA's.

The, for low carbs, just give yourself about 200kcals leeway for any carbs coming from indirect sources like fruit, nuts, cottage cheese etc...

At the end of the day the actual ratios aren't that important.


----------



## QueenofSquats (Oct 22, 2002)

Thanks


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 23, 2002)

Told ya he knows what he is talking about.  I'd just like to add two points.

1)  For me, the number of carbs I take in does not effect the quality of my workouts.  I know many people do notice this.

2)  When cutting, I believe that the most expendable calorie (assuming that you already eat relatively clean) is a carb calorie.  Why?  Because of (1) above and because you need a serious amount of protein and adequate EFAs to ensure that you do not lose LBM.  Because of this, I believe ratios become important, but as Rob said, only as a guidepost.  But, and I think Rob would agree, you should not pick a ratio out of the blue, it is something that should be backed into si to speak.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 23, 2002)

Oh yeah, what was the bet?


----------



## Robboe (Oct 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Told ya he knows what he is talking about.  I'd just like to add two points.
> 
> 1)  For me, the number of carbs I take in does not effect the quality of my workouts.  I know many people do notice this.
> ...




I agree, except for number one, maybe. I say maybe of course.

A little experiment for once you've finished your 1-test cycle:

Remove all carbs from your diet and see how much strength goes.

Of course, my 'maybe' was incase you're refering to 'quality' as how much effort you can still put into the workouts (strength and strength losses not accounted).

I was refering to 'productive' as in, with cyclical carb gaining diet i may progress by 1 rep a week, with carbs i may progress by 2 reps a week. Hence, more productive. But of course, it's dependant upon other factors like stresses etc.. I could be on a high fat gain diet and manage to progress by a few reps one week. However, i may be on a carb-based diet and actually regress due to outside stresses of work or university for example.

However, the most notable point of interest, is the overall calories again. I went from a low carb cutting diet to a low carb gaining diet and despite not adding carbs (except for periodical carb loads) and started making more significant strength gains each and every week, where before hand, in calorie deficit, my strength had plateaued. The only difference made was the overall calories. So yeah, from that perspective, i agree with (1).


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## Twin Peak (Oct 23, 2002)

I sum, you don't agree wuth my first point but you agree with my first point?

Rob, I have been on diets that have totally (almost totally) elimiated carbs and workouts (strength and productivity) has not suffered.

My strength only suffers after I have dropped a significant amount of bodyfat.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> I sum, you don't agree wuth my first point but you agree with my first point?



Exactly, couldn't have put it better myself.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 23, 2002)

Alrighty, since it's closer to the time, here's my diet that i'll practise during the ONE usage.

I imagine i'll reduce calories while 'off', but only slightly and depending on my bodyweight by the end of the cycle.

ONE diet (40c/30p/30f)

4000kcals. (About 20kcals per lb).

Per day:
4000 * .4 = 1600 / 4 = 400g carbs
4000 * .3 = 1200 / 4 = 300g protein
4000 * .3 = 1200 / 9 = 134g fat

Per meal:
400 / 7 = ~57g carbs
300 / 7 = ~42g protein
134 / 7 = ~19g fat

Meal One

84g oats		57g C, 9.9g P, 6g F
4 whole eggs	 	0g C, 26.8g P, 22g F
2 egg whites		0g C, 7g P, 0g F

*Meal Total: 57g C, 43.7g P, 28g F*

Meal Two

4 slices brown bread		56.4g C, 13.6g P, 3.6g F
Tin tuna			0g C, 39g P, 0.8g F
2 TBSP mayo			2g C, 0.2g P, 9g F

*Meal Total: 58.4g C, 52.8g P, 13.4g F*

Meal Three

Same as meal two.

*Meal Total: 58.4g C, 52.8g P, 13.4g F*

Meal Four

84g oats			57g C, 9.9g P, 6g F
~100g chicken breast		0g C, 23g P, 1.2g F
200g cottage cheese		7.2g C, 23.8g P, 3.6g F
1 TSP walnut oil 		0g C, 0g P, 4.5g F
30g cashews			8.4g C, 5.2g P, 14.4g fat

*Meal Total: 72.6g C, 61.9g P, 29.7g F*

Meal Five

84g oats			57g C, 9.9g P, 6g F
4 whole eggs	 		0g C, 26.8g P, 22g F
2 egg whites			0g C, 7g P, 0g F
200g cottage cheese		7.2g C, 23.8g P, 3.6g F

*Meal Total: 64.2g C, 67.5g P, 31.6g F*

Meal Six

Tin tuna 		0g C, 39g P, 0.9g F
79g brown rice	57g C, 10.5g P, 2.3g F
1 TSP walnut oil	0g C, 0g P, 4.5g F
30g cashews		8.4g C, 5.2g P, 14.4g fat

*Meal total: 65.4g C, 54.7g P, 22.1g F*

Daily total = *376g C* (1504) [36.8%], *333.4g P* (1333.6) [32.6%], *138.2g F* (1243.8) [30.4%]

Total calories = *4081.4kcals*

Thrice weekly, switch meal six???s tin of tuna for steak.


Post workout:

50g Dextrose			50g C, 0g P, 0g F
2 scoops EAS simply whey	1.4g C, 24g P, 2.2g F

Post workout shake total: *51.4g C, 24g P, 2.2g F (An extra 321.4kcals).*


----------



## Robboe (Oct 23, 2002)

Feel free to criticize.


----------



## kuso (Oct 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Feel free to criticize.



Alright then, I will!




> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Per day:
> 4000 * .4 = 1600 / 4 = 400g carbs
> 4000 * .3 = 1200 / 4 = 300g carbs
> 4000 * .3 = 1200 / 9 = 134g fat




I think you might want to add a little protien with all those carbs


----------



## Yanick (Oct 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Feel free to criticize.



Okay,

1. your hair style is ugly.
2. you need a tan.
3. your left arm is a bit longer than your right.
4. you don't use the word 'bloke' enough (for an englishman, that is)
5. gotta go to lunch, i'll think of some more later.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 23, 2002)

Well spotted, Kuso.

Yan, i have no hairstyle. My hair is just how it is when i get out of bed. Or how it dries after a shower.

You're right about the tan though. I am the whitest white boy going.

Mystery White Boy.


----------



## Yanick (Oct 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Yan, i have no hairstyle. My hair is just how it is when i get out of bed. Or how it dries after a shower.



Same here, although most of my *guy* friends take upwards of 15 minutes to do their hair.  I can't imagine doing that.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> 
> 
> Alright then, I will!
> ...



I agree.  Thats why I am shooting for 400g protein and 300 carbs!


----------



## QueenofSquats (Oct 23, 2002)

Getting great insight on all this from you guys, the bet was a movie, have to take my fellow trainer out, she said the ratio was P50/F40/C10.
I have to say (although I did a drastic change, so my body reacted in a bizarre way)
When I was on NHE for a week
felt full all the time, which I don't eating carbs, EATING FAT, complexion got better and was not bloated (which I do get by eating carbs)
but did loss strength, felt zoomed out, had loads of strange cravings, and as increase fat so fast, gained some flab on the abs...freaked out and went back to eating carbs, feel bloated from time to time which is bothering me

I guess!! you guys have tried all this...what is the best lifestyle diet?? which you can do for a lifetime with health gains/energy and strength?


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 23, 2002)

Depends on the individual mentally, physiologically, and emotionally.


----------



## Yanick (Oct 23, 2002)

well if you want to balance gaining and being able to stick to a nice balanced diet, i would venture a guess and say an isocaloric diet, but one where you incorporate mostly low GI carbs and veggies, maybe some type of planned cheat meal/day, or keep cals under maint (just a bit), and have a scheduled re feed day.  I'm a big promoter of the re feed days now, as i am having success with my diet ONLY because of the fact that i know i have an almost cheat day coming up, so why cheat on the week days?


----------



## QueenofSquats (Oct 23, 2002)

I can go without cheating, as if I start cheating than I crave it more, I am either this or that...health is my main concern, due to the fact of early dead of my parents...want to live a healthy life, do have a tendency of getting frustrated if I start feeling sick (zooming out and stuff)...still searching for an ideal way of eating...


----------



## QueenofSquats (Oct 23, 2002)

I didn't cheat for 2 whole years, got off-track when I started losing more and more weight, and had some digestive problems, I think maybe its carbs...as I don't have it when I eat fat/protein, but lose strength and zoom out...ahhh


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## Robboe (Oct 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by QueenofSquats *_
> Getting great insight on all this from you guys, the bet was a movie, have to take my fellow trainer out, she said the ratio was P50/F40/C10.
> I have to say (although I did a drastic change, so my body reacted in a bizarre way)
> When I was on NHE for a week
> ...



1. Fat takes longer to digest and so sits on the stomach for longer.
2. Protein and fat have more favourable effects on (probably the main) hunger singnaller, Cholecystokinin (CCK). So you stave off hunger pains for longer.
3. You gave the diet ONE week. The ONE week where the diet is a pain in the ass. The ONE week that Rob asks you to stick to the most, cause after that ONE week it's plain sailing. And i gotta admit, it is. NHE = piece of piss to follow and stick to. The lack of energy and all the rest disappear once your body is more acclimatized towards fat metabolism over carb metabolism.
4. Strength loss is inevitable at first do to drop in glycogen stored in muscle. Not a proble, you soon get used to low carb training and your strength returns pretty damn quick.
5. The whole idea you gave of upping fat and gaining is total shit unless you were overeating. It's all in your head. 

My conclusion:

You should have given the diet longer to assess properly.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 23, 2002)

Actual diary semi-update:

Went to the Newcastle vs Juventus match today at St james' Park. The Toon trounced the ponces 1-0  I'm really chuffed i can go round saying i was there when we beat Juve in the Champions League.

It's my Mam's birthday today too, so we went to the pub for last orders and i had a couple of beers. I've actually used the latter half of this day as a semi-refeed kinda day. Basically, ate a box of cereal (unbelievable how flexible this food group actually is - good for all times of the day!)

So anyhoo, start ONE tomorrow providing all things go to plan.


----------



## lina (Oct 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> 4. Strength loss is inevitable at first do to drop in glycogen stored in muscle. Not a proble, you soon get used to low carb training and your strength returns pretty damn quick.



Strengths returns to previous levels but does it increase/surpass previous levels?

Happy Birthday to your Mam!! How many beers for her?


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## Twin Peak (Oct 23, 2002)

It certainly can.  Depends on calorie deficit/surplus and genetic makeup.


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## crackerjack414 (Oct 23, 2002)

most will probely disagreas on this but test is test  if you are taking a precurser  or the depot its the samething ( ones more potent). It still leads to an increase test levels in the body. IF you wanna do that then just go with AAS.  I just cant stand all of those guys who claim to be natural when they use prohormes like there is no tomorrow.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 24, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by lina *_
> 
> 
> Strengths returns to previous levels but does it increase/surpass previous levels?
> ...



I have noticed strength gains while on this diet, so yeah. But then the next week i may drop some reps. Y'know, for the most part, when dieting you can gain strength in the first few weeks continually like you do when gaining (unless the sudden drop in glycogen results in a drop in strength of course) but after a while progression stalls and you some times regress. But like i said earlier in this thread, some weeks everything will be super and you'll have some great sessions, or _a_ great session where progression occurs for fun.

Starting up EC tends to do this for me, but i've managed it independantly of the stuff.

She had a few beers and some "whiky"


----------



## Robboe (Oct 24, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by crackerjack414 *_
> most will probely disagreas on this but test is test  if you are taking a precurser  or the depot its the samething ( ones more potent). It still leads to an increase test levels in the body. IF you wanna do that then just go with AAS.  I just cant stand all of those guys who claim to be natural when they use prohormes like there is no tomorrow.



1-testosterone != testosterone.

1-test can't armomatise, test can.

Two different compounds. It's good to see you've done your homework before speaking up.

Secondly, 1-test = AAS, so in that sense, i AM doing AAS. So saying that i may as well go and do AAS is quite a moronic statement.

Again, it's good to see you've done your homework.

Thirdly, where am i claiming to be natural? I've use clenbuterol in the past (twice actually), so does that constitute me being natural or not? And i've stated use of that compound on this forum before so it's not new news.

Since 1-test is AAS then no, from this morning, i'm not natural. But then again, if 'test is test' then all i'm doing is introducing a compound that is already in my body. Exactly the same scenario as with creatine. Are creatine users natural?

As far as i'm concerned there is a HUGE difference between pinning my ass or rubbing some goo into my chest. I'm not mentally prepared to inject myself at this point in time, and 1-test was something i wanted to experience, so i am.

I imagine i'll try injecting one of these days down the line too, but not for a few years yet methinks. I'll stick to my goo thank you very much.


----------



## lina (Oct 24, 2002)

TP, I guess you are right... see what works best for each body type.  I didn't do very well performance wise on this type of diet so I'm right now loving the little extra carb I'm adding in.

TCD, So your strength gains sounded minimal, but I do recall you doing well on some like your weighted dips.... I just wanted to confirm that it just wasn't me...with EC do you mean vit E and C?  

OK, since you asked....my critique on your diet TCD: no fruits or veggies... 

Sounds like Mam had a good ol' time with her boy....


----------



## Robboe (Oct 24, 2002)

Ok, woke up a bit earlier this morning to shave the ol' chesticles and shower to scrub the area with an exfoliator. The applied the stuff. 4 squirts to the chest. It's a lot oilier than i'd imagined and takes some rubbing in. No rash formation, no did it burn. Tingled for a few minutes but that was all.

I also weighed myself, which is quite a daft idea the morning after a refeed, but i wanted to know. I clocked in at 211.5lbs. I've put on 16lbs since saturday. How's that for water/glycogen weight gain? Of course there's retention of food in that figure too, but i've put on a lot of water/glycogen.

Took some measurements too, which again was prolly dumb since i am retaining subcutaneous water, but who cares.

I'm training soon.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 24, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by lina *_
> TP, I guess you are right... see what works best for each body type.  I didn't do very well performance wise on this type of diet so I'm right now loving the little extra carb I'm adding in.
> 
> TCD, So your strength gains sounded minimal, but I do recall you doing well on some like your weighted dips.... I just wanted to confirm that it just wasn't me...with EC do you mean vit E and C?
> ...



Strength gains were all over really. Cardio affected leg training, weight losses meant my exercises involving bodyweight gained a little (dips for instance) etc...

EC = ephedrine/caffiene.

I know, i eat an apple everyday but i never count it in my diet. As for veggies, due to the sheer volume of food i need to consume each day, veggies are out the window for now. There is literally no room.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 24, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> 1-testosterone != testosterone.
> ...



Good to see the chicken still has some fight!  I like it.

My only comment on the issue is a take off on your creatine example -- the term natural used to have a meaning.  With the intro of various suppliments it has become so blurred.  Personally, I think in the lay sense, a "natural" bodybuilder is someone who does not use illegal substances.  That definition, BTW, falls directly in line with Rob's analogy to creatine.  That is indeed why (for the moment) 1-test is legal, it is naturally occurring in the body.

Anyway, that's my opinion (I know Rob you differ on that).  So to take it a step further, using scientifically processed whey protein, is not more "natural" than creatine or 1-test.  You want to get carried away?  "Fat free" (cookies for example) anything or anythng artifically sweetened is also human made and not "natural".  Is someone who uses sweet and low not natural.

Now don't everyone go all nuts here -- the point is, its very blurred.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 24, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> As for veggies, due to the sheer volume of food i need to consume each day, veggies are out the window for now. There is literally no room.



I agree.  I think thats why I couldn't breath on Monday and Tuesday but yesterday was better.

Are you going to post measurements?  I haven't posted mine yet, but I'd like to see your changes.  I am going to remeasure weekly (sunday nights).  I am now weighing 209-210, so we are roughly the same ('cept you are taller and I am fatter).


----------



## Robboe (Oct 24, 2002)

No, i'm not that lean so we can't tell who's fatter.

Anyhoo, you're right, the line is too blurry, and no matter how defined it gets, you'll never have a situation where everyone agrees what is natural or not. Which is why i introduced the creatine analogy. But it's uninteresting to debate so let's forget it.

Here's some quick measurements, prolly slightly inaccurate, but what the fuck.

R quad: 25.5"
L Quad: 26.5" (amazed here, usually my right leg is bigger).

R arm: 15.5-16" (couldn't get it exact).
L arm: 15.5"

Waist: 36" (was about 34-34.5" during cutting a few weeks back so i imagine this is due to water retention and bulged stomach from refeeding).

Chest: 45" (Not sure how accurate that measurement was).

Those are all i took.


----------



## kuso (Oct 24, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> Two different compounds. It's good to see you've done your homework before speaking up.
> ...



LMFAO.....I saw him post that and was looking forward to your response TCD


----------



## crackerjack414 (Oct 24, 2002)

does your prohormone increase the testosterone to epitesosterone ratio ? if it exceeds 6to 1 congradulations you have tested postitive for AAS


----------



## kuso (Oct 24, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by crackerjack414 *_
> does your prohormone increase the testosterone to epitesosterone ratio ? if it exceeds 6to 1 congradulations you have tested postitive for AAS



Dude....which part of this post didn`t you understand?




> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> 1-test = AAS
> ...



I don`t think he is concerned with a positive test!


----------



## Yanick (Oct 24, 2002)

LMAO!!

Rob, you bad boy, i can't believe your taking AAS!!

And all this time i have been living in a deluded world thinking that whatever the government says is right/healthy truly is right/healthy.  Lets all start following the food pyramid and doing 30 min of cardio everyday to live long lives!!

Crackerjack, really, don't start with Rob.  He doesn't just do shit out of the blue, and he knows what he's talking about.  Mainly because he's a fuckin geek who actually likes reading shit like that.

And his point was very clearly stated, that 

*1-test as in ONE, the product that he is taking, is AAS*

Through a loophole in the law however its still legal.  You gotta get your shit in order, just because something is legal/illegal doesn't mean its healthy/unhealthy for you.  Just take a look at ephedrine, the fuckin dumbasses in washington want to ban it because some 80 year old took something like 3 times the dosage, with a pre existing heart condition and fuckin died.  NO SHIT SHERLOCK!!!

okay i'm going off topic, i'll stop now.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 24, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by crackerjack414 *_
> does your prohormone increase the testosterone to epitesosterone ratio ? if it exceeds 6to 1 congradulations you have tested postitive for AAS



Read the above posts by Yan and Kuso for my reply.


Anyhoo, trained back and calves earlier.

About 12 sets or so for back, got a great pump, but it's still early days yet. I've only had one application so far. I do my next at about 9pm (keeping applications as close to 12 hours apart as possible).

The pump was good, but disscipated pretty quickly, which was unfortunate but what the fuck, eh?

On a less attractive note, since i refed on cereals and bran flakes yesterday, you would believe the amount of 'passing' i've done today. I seriously never realised i ate that much yesterday. Had lots of gas too. Not nasty smelling gas, just huge trumps when they come. Quite humerous actually.

I train chest tomorrow. On a really cool note, if anyone is familiar with YatesNightBlade from musclemag or wannabebig or wherever else he posts? I'm training with him tomorrow, which = ace. He's up to see his girlfriend so we've arranged a session. He's about 250lbs and a very big lad, but i'll show him how to train properly


----------



## Robboe (Oct 24, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> Just take a look at ephedrine, the fuckin dumbasses in washington want to ban it because some 80 year old took something like 3 times the dosage, with a pre existing heart condition and fuckin died.  NO SHIT SHERLOCK!!!



You seen 'Requiem for a dream'?


----------



## Yanick (Oct 24, 2002)

No but i heard that it has something to do with speed or ephedrine or something.  You can spoil it for me if you want.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 24, 2002)

Don't know 'em but have a good w/o!  Bet he kicks yer ass! 

I have had some good pumps (not unbelievable though) too, but they have been lasting a coupla hours.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 25, 2002)

This 1-test really jacks up your appetite. I ate brekkie and then like 30 minutes later i was hungry.

We've bougt my mam a kitten for her birthday and i've spent the past day and half playing with her. She's white with a ginger jacket and a little ginger moustaché. She's lush.

I'm training with yatesy in a few hours. TP, you're probably right, he will.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 25, 2002)

Hmmm, hasn't effected my appetite.


----------



## Yanick (Oct 25, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> This 1-test really jacks up your appetite. I ate brekkie and then like 30 minutes later i was hungry.
> 
> We've bougt my mam a kitten for her birthday and i've spent the past day and half playing with her. She's white with a ginger jacket and a little ginger moustaché. She's lush.
> ...




I got the wrong impression from the post while i was reading it.

First line you say that your hungry, then in the very next sentence you start talking about a cat. hmmmm?


----------



## Robboe (Oct 25, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't getcha?

Trained with Yatesy earlier. Damn that boy is big. Strong too. Made me look a right ponce on the bench when i squeezed out 4 slow reps with my top weight and he got an easy 18 and was nowhere near failure on the 18th rep.

I think, and i say think cause i never wrote anything down, that we did 9 work sets in total. And we followed it up with about 5 work sets for abs. It was great fun in all, and i'd love to train with him again some time. Maybe even next week if he comes up again.

No beer o'clock today, taking the weekend off partying. Firstly to save money, since i spent a lot when i went to the game on wednesday, secondly to give this 1-test more time to kick in without any problems and thirdly cause i'm well and truely bollocks'd.


----------



## Yanick (Oct 25, 2002)

Lemme show you what i was expecting to read...



> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> This 1-test really jacks up your appetite. I ate brekkie and then like 30 minutes later i was hungry.
> 
> We've bougt my mam a kitten for her birthday and i've spent the past day and half _roasting_ her.



btw, yeah Yates is hella big, i saw a pic of him last year, and he was massive, he's probably double that now.

don't sweat his physical superiority over you, just think, that to someone like me you would make the same impression as he did on you.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 25, 2002)

Yan you have any pics around?  How long have you been training?  Do you have a journal?


----------



## Yanick (Oct 25, 2002)

check the journal section, its titled something like "Da Yanaks road to success."

i posted pics over there and there is a bodybuilding biography of sorts in there.


----------



## QueenofSquats (Oct 25, 2002)

Who is Rob???


----------



## Yanick (Oct 25, 2002)

LOL, sorry i thought you would know.

Rob=TCD (he like using real names, much like me)


----------



## Robboe (Oct 25, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> Lemme show you what i was expecting to read...
> 
> 
> ...




Dude, eat my kitten? Are you some sort of sicko?!

I prefer puppies.

On a side note, the film 'Simone' is trés Bien.

Yan, i wasn't that bothered about Yates "superiority" lol. He's a cool guy, but he literally is twice my size.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 27, 2002)

Trained thighs earlier. I was getting an amazing pump simply from warming up on squats, so straight away i knew it'd be a good workout. And it was.

I also got a lower back pump, quite a hellish one too, which i have never experienced before. Quite humerous really.  

I covered about 13 sets in total for both muscle groups (quads & hams). I'm gonna be sore tomorrow.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 28, 2002)

Ok, delts and arms went swimmingly. Progressed on everything. Nothing amazing yet though, since i'm still working with sub-max weights and stopping shy of failure, and these are weights that i've done in the past and lifted heavier previously (much heavier on some exercises). But either way, it's all good. Nothing i'll attribute to the 1-T yet, since i could have made these gains from merely carbing up and the extra calories. 

Great pump too.

I got to the end of the workout at around 6pm and realised i'd only eaten twice before then. Had my post w/o shake and decided to alleviate the need for 2 meals by buying a dorian yates protein flapjack (about 500 kcals) and eating it right there, and bought a big Nestle Double cream chocolate bar (one of the really big ones) and ate it on the walk home from the gym (about 700 kcals) so i now reckon i can get in all 4000kcals without any hassle by the end of the day. And tasted ace too.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 28, 2002)

Too funny.  Nice "post workout" feed!  4000 cals that way is cheating though!  Too easy.

What is your normal post w/o shake?


----------



## Robboe (Oct 28, 2002)

Hey, post workout nutrition is important remember 

Shake = 50g dextrose (sometimes 10g creatine, if i have it), 2 scoops simply whey, but i've bumped it to 3 scoops lately.

There's no magical formulas behind it. No 3:1 ratios of carbs to protein. No magical insulin mimickers or nutrient shuttlers or anything like that. No plasmoid defribulators or transporter deconditioners. No Contractile demodulators or Mega-enhanced nutrient cell depository. Or any other made up crap.

Just simple carbs, good ol' whey, and creatine.

*cough*

And chocolate on occasions.

*cough cough*


----------



## Robboe (Oct 28, 2002)

Sweet Jesu.

I just had an epiphany.

I'm worse for chocolate than women


----------



## Yanick (Oct 28, 2002)

lmao.  

Welcome to the club Rob, we meet every tuesday and thursday night.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 29, 2002)

I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank ~LP~ for that delightful PM they have sent me. It truely brought a tear to my eye.


----------



## lina (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Sweet Jesu.
> 
> I just had an epiphany.
> ...



   You worry me... 


Like your pwo feed too.  Chocolate week here too till Halloween time... You all celebrate Halloween in UK?


----------



## Robboe (Oct 29, 2002)

Not really.

We get the dick little kids running around with their jackets over their heads asking for a 'penny for halloween', usually several weeks before the day. I just tell them to fuck off. Even on halloween night. Unless they come dressed up properly.

But no, halloween ain't a big of a deal over here as it is over there.


----------



## Yanick (Oct 29, 2002)

Rob tells little kids to fuck off, lmao!!  I'm picturing that happening and fuckin crackin up.

Over here, maybe no all of America, but Brooklyn atleast, i spend the day dodging eggs, its not fun at all.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 29, 2002)

I'd fucking slap them too if they weren't such scruffy little fuckers that i don't want to touch in fear of catching infection.

Anyhoo, i've just got back from yet another champions league match. Watched the Toon trounce Dynamo Kiev 2-1 and loved every minute of it. I really want to go to Holland next week to watch the feyenord game. If we win that and Dyanmo Kiev fail to beat Juventus, then we go through to the next phase!

Not bad considering we lost our first threee matches. Unjustly on all three accounts amazingly.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 29, 2002)

Your p/o shake is identical to mine, except I try to add some extra BCAAs if I have 'em.  But as you know, no creatine for now.

Last year we had ONE "trick or treater" -- but he came 3 times!


----------



## Robboe (Oct 30, 2002)

I hope you beat him repeatedly with a jagged stick.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 30, 2002)

It wasn't jagged.


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## Robboe (Oct 30, 2002)

...And that's why he came back a third time...


With kids these days you've really got to hit a point home hard. Treats in return for a few lashings is nothing new.

This year, bring out the pitch fork. A few prods with that baby will show 'um who's boss.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 30, 2002)

What about an electric probe?

So its almost a week on One any insight?  Did you see my comments re my back w/o yesterday?


----------



## Robboe (Oct 30, 2002)

Ok, to prevent this thread from becoming totally off topic, here's a shy update.

I shifted from 4 to 6 squirts over the weekend. if i did 4 squirts all the time, then i could probably squeeze 2 two week cycles out of one bottle. But since i've moved to 6 (6 squirts would last 15 days per bottle) i'm not sure how much i'll have left for a second cycle. So this time i may just keep going till the bottle runs dry. Which may be about 3 weeks or so. Then i'll take at least 3 weeks off. In fact, it'll be so close to christmas by then that i may just wait until the new year before doing another cycle.

One point of note is that the first few days (thurs-mon) of the 4000kcals made me feel and look like i was physically fatter. Of course, i put a lot down to stomach distention from food, water retention and sodium and all the rest. But the past two days i've looked almost as lean as i was by the end of my last cut. Only with fuller muscles (from the glycogen). My chest also looks notably larger (although it's still small on the whole).

I'll re-weigh myself tomorrow and see how my weight has changed. I'm expecting it to be down from last week's weight actually, since last thursday i weighed in the day after a refeed so i was holding food, water, glycogen and the like. This weeek i won't be retaining as much water or food so i'm expecting to be lighter.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> What about an electric probe?
> 
> So its almost a week on One any insight?  Did you see my comments re my back w/o yesterday?



Just made a quick ONE review so far. Nothing amazing yet, but that does remind me that a lot of guys say they don't _feel_ ONE really kicking in until week two. We'll have to wait and see. I've yet to train something again since starting it too, so i reckon that will be the real eye opener. Although my results may be twisted since i am coming off a diet - a low carb one at that, and i've since moved onto more regular carb feedings. But we shall see.

I saw your back comments, yeah. Still amazing progress though. Even if it was just with two exercises.

By the way, re: the electric probe. It sounds good, but what if you broke it off their head(s)? That's gonna be you out of pocket, man. A better idea may be an electric door knocker. With a good few thousand volts passing through it. At least that way you'll never feel inclined to try and hit them with it.

Although i'm still liking my pitch fork idea...


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> I saw your back comments, yeah. Still amazing progress though. Even if it was just with two exercises.



Actually, I progressed on every exercise and every set, except my first set of pullups.  My comments was just that the progression COULD be due to other factors.  If it continues next week than we will know.

Regarding your "fat then lean" comments, my experience was EXACTLY the same, but my weight has gone up.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 30, 2002)

Well i'll not know if my weight has gone down till tomorrow morning, but even if it does i don't care. Last week's weigh in was quite a ridiculous idea by all accounts, i'm not overly sure why i bothered in all truth.

Just the extra calories you're now eating could be helping your progression. But i can tell you that the 1-T won't be doing any harm in this regard, even if the progression isn't attributable soley to it.

And maybe it works better once you get a bit of blood into the muscle group? Sounds like a dumb i dea i realise, but theoretically, 1-T helps with better pumps and you'd expect more fluid in the muscle making the cells bigger would mean you can shift more weight for more reps. A bit like how creatine manages it. So next session make sure you're really warmed up with a slight pump before going into your proper work sets? I dunno how valid that is, but it's an idea.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 30, 2002)

Interesting thought.  Don't get me wrong, I am quite happy with the progress to date.  If the progession continued ta this pace (I realize it won't) I'd be unbelievably strong and, presumably, the corresponding muscle would fill out nicely.  Basically, I have added 20 pounds to each working set.  That's not unheard off from one w/o to the next but continuous over 6 weeks ud ridiculous.  Imaging if I gained 120 pounds on all my lifts in 6 weeks?


----------



## Yanick (Oct 30, 2002)

damn lucky asses with there 1-test talk, did i ever tell you guys how much i hate you?

j/k of course.

Rob/TP,

what're your plans for post cycle therapy?  How long, how much, and what will you be taking?


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 30, 2002)

I am going to do six on and 4 off.

I am going to cut back on volume SIGNIFICANTLY for 2 weeks then do my old volume/frequency for 2 weeks.

Drop cals from 4000 to 3000 then to 2500.

Use 6-Oxo and ECA, and creatine.  And pray that I can keep all my gains!


----------



## kuso (Oct 30, 2002)

TP.....are you going to load you creatine or just start up how ever many g`s you take during a normal "cycle" of it.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> TP.....are you going to load you creatine or just start up how ever many g`s you take during a normal "cycle" of it.



Sorry to do this in your thread Rob....I will probably load.  I know the debates over whether this works or not.  Personally, I don't have an opinion on whether its necessary, but I can afford the extra few dollars, so I'll load.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 30, 2002)

Here's a quote from an earlier post in this thread:



> "1. keeping calories up.
> 2. Keeping carbs up.
> 3. Training shy of failure
> 4. keeping lifting sessions below 40 minutes in duration.
> ...




The training ethic will be implemented for the week after the cycle ends and the EC/nicotine/calories/carbs will be for two weeks.

Or if my cycle lasts longer, i may opt for training protocol to stem for 2 weeks and the EC/nic/cals/carbs to last 3 or 4. Taking at least weekends off from nicotine, or doing a 2-3 on, 2 off approach.


----------



## kuso (Oct 30, 2002)

Cool....yeah, sorry TCD


----------



## Robboe (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> I am going to do six on and 4 off.
> 
> I am going to cut back on volume SIGNIFICANTLY for 2 weeks then do my old volume/frequency for 2 weeks.
> ...




Dude, you really should do 'off', whatever you do 'on'. So 6 on, 6 weeks off.

And i hope you're not going to drop calories down to 3000 straight away. Lest ye not forget, after another 5 weeks you're probably gonna be bordering on the 220 mark, and 3000kcals ain't gonna aid you in maintaining your gains. I'd say do 3500kcals for a few weeks after the diet (depending on your size and weight of course - if you're heavier then eat more) before considering dropping calories even further. At the minute you're 214 eating 4000kcals or so, which is about 18kcals per lb. If your weight goes up more, you're gonna have to bump calories up a bit in correspondance. Try and keep the cals in the 18-20 per lb region.

re: loading. Do it. There's nothing wrong with loading, providing it's not the loading strategy advocated by the supplement companies. About 2-3 days of 5g twice to thrice daily works fine. No need for the 20g a day for 5 days nonsense.


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 30, 2002)

Maybe I'll keep cals at 3500 for two weeks than go down to 3000.  We shall see.  You know about my fat phobia.

I saw somewhere (1fast400 I think) that 6 on 4 off was ok).  That works well because I could start a second cycle after the new year.  You feel strongly about this?

Usually I TAKE 10g per day and load with 20, you think thats too much?  What brand so you use?


----------



## ~LP~ (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank ~LP~ for that delightful PM they have sent me. It truely brought a tear to my eye.



Cool, I was hoping you'd like it.  

Good thread Robboe...when i get a chance I'll read it from start to finish.  I never really read much info on NHE in the past, and also the info on 1-Test should be cool to read as well.  Who knows...maybe one day when I bulk I'll give it a try.

I'm not sure if this has been stated already or not, but I just wondering, if you have a reliable source for the illegal variation, why pay more for the legal one, of course assuming you are not too fearful of being caught?  I am guessing that the reason 1-Test is sold legally is because of the transport system.  I guess the stigman of injecting will forever be attributed to "controlled" substances, yet when they bring out a variation with a different transport, it's suddenly "ok".  That's my initial take...but haven't done much reading on it yet.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 30, 2002)

Strongly?

Hmmm...maybe. If you want to ensure all of your gains are kept then yeah, i'd really advise it. After any more than about 2 weeks of the 1-T and your HPTA will be shutting down, so you really need time to allow it to regenerate afterwards.

6 on, 4 off may be ok, but if it was me i'd still take the same amount of time off as on.

My creatine is just plain monohydrate.

I don't load, although i really should if i want to see results start quicker (strength wise). But if i do load i do it in 5g doses (i've read somewhere about too much creatine at once, but it's probably BS, and i read it a while ago so i've no idea where it was from) thrice daily (so morning, evening, night) and i do it for 2-3 days. Once you're at saturation point there's little need to keep loading. And since i eat red meat quite regularly i get creatine from that too.

The 20g a day for 5 days thing really is a concept stretched by supp companies to make you go through your supply quicker so you'll be buying sooner.

But yeah, i don't take creatine every day, only after training, so i take about 10g at a time with my dex/whey shake.

The brand is bodyfortress, and i use it cause i can get it extremely cheap (1kg for like 20 squids). I've had the same tub for over a year now. I have no idea of the shelf life for the stuff though.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> 
> 
> Cool, I was hoping you'd like it.
> ...



Hey Pete, yeah some one beat you to the punch. I've already explained, i'm not mentally prepared to stick myself yet, so TD Apps are the next best thing.

But you're very correct on the rest. Especially that part when you said that you are a complete tosspot.


----------



## Yanick (Oct 30, 2002)

Rob,

no 6-oxo or anything of that sort?  Just cals/carbs etc etc?  Your doing 2 week cycles?


----------



## Robboe (Oct 30, 2002)

Yan:

No, yes, yes.

Although the latter may be extended slightly (by maybe a week or so) just to finish the bottle, if that is the case, since a one week cycle sounds pointless.


----------



## kuso (Oct 30, 2002)

TCD....any reason you aren`t going with the general 6-oxo ??


----------



## Robboe (Oct 31, 2002)

Yes.

It's not mandatory.

I should be able to achieve similar results without it. And since my cycles aren't gonna be that long i don't feel it's totally warranted.

I also fogot to mention i'll be bumping up my zinc intake post cycle too.


----------



## kuso (Oct 31, 2002)

I guess you are right with the two week cycles........will anything at all change if you do decide to go through to the full three weeks?


----------



## Twin Peak (Oct 31, 2002)

Rob, what does the zinc do?


----------



## Robboe (Oct 31, 2002)

Doubt it Kuso. I'll only invest in 6-OXO if i do a 4-6 week cycle.

The way it's shaping up since i upped the squirts, it'll probably alst me about 2.5 weeks, so that's ok.

On a side note, i forgot to mention about application that some may find useful. I used to apply all 4 squirts onto my chest and upper ab region, but it didn't seem to soak in properly. SO i've since moved areas to 1 squirt on my chest, 1 on my upper ab region, 1 on either side of my oblique/lat region (lift your arm, below the arm pit and a bit round the back area) and 1 squirt on either forearm on the inside. It seems to be absorbing MUCH better over a larger surface area.

TP, zinc is required for test production. If my test is suppressed a bit, it should aid a bit. Actually, this may be one of the times where ZMA can be useful (the other time being in zinc deficiency). I don't see the point in buying ZMA though, when zinc alone is much cheaper and does the job.

Zinc boosts (or can help boost or prevent drops) in leptin too. So can vitamin E, so i may take more of that (like 1200iu, 400iu thrice daily). Of course, since i'm in calorie surplus you've just gotta wonder how much difference the vitamine E will make, but i'll probably implement it anyway.


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## Robboe (Oct 31, 2002)

Oh yes, i weighed myself this morning.

I'm 15st 7.5lbs.

That's 217.5lbs, which is 6lbs heavier in one week.

The thing is, i don't look or feel 6lbs heavier than last week. Then again, i see myself in the mirror everyday, so i doubt i could tell. 

It's quite weird. Especially since i weighed in after a refeed last week, like i've mentioned.

So, i've been off NHE for about 11 days now, i think. And in that time, i've gained 22lbs.

Interesting...


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## Robboe (Oct 31, 2002)

That's crazy.

2.5lbs more and i'll be at the weight i was at 22 weeks ago when i first began my 20 week cutting plan.


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## kuso (Oct 31, 2002)

Thats great to hear TCD 

Particularly, as you say, the last weigh in being after your refeed.

Very impressive!

Are you working out today?


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## Robboe (Oct 31, 2002)

Damn fucking right i am.

I've had the past two days off and i was going nuts yesterday. I really wanted to lift. Calorie surplus always makes me like this. I've totally re-ignited my passion for heavy weight training.

I have back and calves soon.


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## kuso (Oct 31, 2002)

Back and calves....yeah!

Make sure to post when you are done.

Shit....I gotta get my shoulder back in working order! lol I`m dying to try this!!!


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## Twin Peak (Oct 31, 2002)

Wow, thats a serious gain.  How do you look?  Are you almost as lean?  If so than excellent.  My guess is though that up to 10 pounds of it is/can be water.

Good news on reigniting your passion for heavy weights.  That's what its all about after all.

Hopefully your definition of HEAVY will change considerably over the next few weeks!


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## Robboe (Oct 31, 2002)

Well i don't _think_ i've put much fat on. I do know i'm holding a bit of water though. My midsection and upper torso look a bit 'puffier', basically, traits of water retention. So yeah, i' agree, if i went low carbs now i'd drop a shit load of water.

For leaneancy, my midsection looks just as bad as it did when i finished cutting - the top two abs pathetically poking through still.

Seriously though, if we decided that all 22lbs were fat (which they're not of course) then that's 77,000kcals worth. Which, over 11 days, requires me to eat 7000kcals a day. Which i haven't been doing. 

If we say 10lbs is water, then 12lbs is 42,000kcals (if it's 12lbs fat that is) which means ~3800kcals a day, which is closer to the money.

But since i've not added 12lbs of fat, i've added no more than 2-4. But you'd expect ~8lbs of muscle to be quite visible.

Like i've said previously, my muscles do look bigger and fuller, but this is something i've only attributed to the glycogen.

We'll see when i weigh in next week. If i'm 230lbs you know it's the 1-T lol.


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## Robboe (Oct 31, 2002)

Oh yeah, suppose i better amend the old diet a bit.

At 217lbs i am now eating about 18kcals per lb. I need to bump it to closer to 20kcals per lb, so i'll add about 200kcals on somewhere.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 31, 2002)

Wow are you really that strict that you count to a tee?  I just care about being in the vacinity of 4K, which, no doubt, you noticed on fitday.


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## Robboe (Oct 31, 2002)

Well, not really strict no. It;s not something i was gonna mark down. I was just gonna do it mentally. For instance, if i was pouring out a bowl of oats and going for 84g, i may purposely spill over to 90g here and there.

Eat a bit more cottage cheese, a few more nuts. That sort of thing. I was just making public note of it so others could grasp a gist of what i do.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 31, 2002)

Ahh, good to know.

BTW, never realized how many calories are in one little cup 'o nuts.


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## Robboe (Oct 31, 2002)

Yup. They're calorie-dense little fuckers.

Good for when you need the cals and you don't feel like eating anymore. So is oil actually.


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## Yanick (Oct 31, 2002)

Rob,

this is interesting stuff.  I've had a hunch that you don't necessarily need 6-oxo when doing 2 week cycles as your HPTA is only _starting_ to decline.  So do you reckon i should even waste money on 6-oxo if i'm gonna be trying 2 week cycles like you?


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## Robboe (Oct 31, 2002)

Funny you should ask. I just read something by par deus on AL saying that 6-OXO would be a good idea for shorter cycles since the testicular mass would still be present.

Never the less, i still don't plan on buying any 6-OXO.

Righty, good and bad news. Good news is that my session was good. Bad news is that the back of my neck is hurting like a bitch. Last week i felt a twinge in the back of my neck/trap area (if i had to pin it down, i'd say inside right of the trap portion II, if portion I is higher up connecting to the base of the skull). So it's in that vaccinity. Anyhoo, it subsided sharpish at the time so i thought nothing of it. But i got thorugh all of my rows no problem and moved onto shrugs. I warmed up up with a light weight and then waited a few minutes before going for my heavy set - a set which i actually put down in weight by 10kg per DB a few weeks back. Ironic or what. Anyhoo, i got 7 reps but had to stop because of the trap/neck pain. Sure i was annoyed and not being able to do a proper trap workout, but i'd rather be fit and injury free then risk problems for one set. Anyhoo, i stopped the workout then and there as far as back was concerned. I did some calf raises and then got out of there. I stood around talking to Danny the gym rat for a while and the pain seemed to get worse to the point where tipping my head back a certain distance causes some discomfort. It's eased a little now, but it's still painful. I just hope i'm good for tomorrow.

I did about 11 sets of vertical and horizontal rows before the fateful kneeling DB shrug set.

I was disappointed at first with my wide grip chins. I strapped 20kg round my waist and was hoping for about 4 reps (2 reps with this weight is a PB), but i only got two. I felt weak until i realised that due to my own weight, i was lifting an extra 10kg. Which is quite cool. SO i dropped to 15k and got 2 again and then with 10k i got 2 lol. So overall i was fucked haha. Anyhoo...

All my other sets progressed - BB rows, CG PD and low pulley row. So i'm good.


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## Yanick (Oct 31, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Funny you should ask. I just read something by par deus on AL saying that 6-OXO would be a good idea for shorter cycles since the testicular mass would still be present.




Hmmm, i'm not sure what you're getting at, how is it better because of the testicular mass being there?  I thought that 6-oxo would help recover estrogen, ie bring testicular mass to normal.

I do know that it can be used as an anti-e.  But i don't see the connection


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## Robboe (Oct 31, 2002)

I imagine he means that since the Testicular mass is still there, that it would help spurn a recovery of Test quicker than if the clems were totally raisined.

Other than that i'm not sure.


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## Yanick (Oct 31, 2002)

oh ok.

and i meant test in my previous post, 6 oxo helps brings test back to baseline not estrogen.


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## Robboe (Oct 31, 2002)

I had a feeling this would happen.

My interest is being diverted away from fat loss biochemistry and more towards hypertrophy biochem.

It always seems to happen depending on what goals i currently have.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 31, 2002)

Makes sense.  Do you think this is a problem?


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## Robboe (Oct 31, 2002)

Nah not really, but in general, my interest in the biochemistry behind hypertrophy is negible and when i start gaining it takes over my interest in fat loss, so i tend to fall behind on the newer info a bit.

Of course it's not something i'm gonna lose sleep over. I could always do with a bit more muscle


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## Twin Peak (Oct 31, 2002)

Exactly!  Or a lot more muscle!


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## Robboe (Oct 31, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Exactly!  Or a lot more muscle!




Haha!!!!

Translation:

"Rob, you're a skinny little bitch."


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## Yanick (Oct 31, 2002)

Rob,

i just figured out how to change the name of the thread.  Go to your very first post and edit/delete it.  Then just change the subject line.  voila!

and yes, i have no life


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## Twin Peak (Oct 31, 2002)

Funny!  No, it was a ONE, comment.


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## Jenny (Nov 1, 2002)

to a great thread.. I tried reading it all, but I kinda got an headache after the first 5 pages..  

How much have you lost in total? I kinda feel like trying this myself.. 
Your a very knowledgeable man.. that's for sure..

NG


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## Robboe (Nov 1, 2002)

Yan, go see, i tried that last week to no avail.

Miss _Girl, i dieted for 20 weeks in total. The first 10 weeks were a modified version of NHE with carb loads occuring after training (so three times a week). In those ten weeks i went from 220lbs to 207.5lbs. And for the remaining ten weeks i shifted to full NHE and went from 207.5lbs to 195.5lbs. So that's like 24.5lbs lost in 20 weeks. Which is more or less 1lb a week.

But the funniest part of it was that within 11 days of coming off NHE, and after carbing up and putting on water/glycogen weight and eating more food, i'm back up to 217.5lbs. And more or less at the same bf% when i finished cutting (although my waist is ~2" bigger now cause my stomach has stretched loads from all the food i'm now eating and the water retention etc...).

If i lowered my carbs and calories a bit, within a week i reckon i'd probably lose ~10lbs water, give or take a few lbs. Crazy eh? 

There's a photo from september somewhere in here on one of the last 5-10 pages if you haven't seen it.


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## Robboe (Nov 1, 2002)

I'll save you a job, here it is:


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## Robboe (Nov 1, 2002)

Ok, trained chest earlier. Good workout.

Progressed on everything, but it was just a few reps here and there on most so like TP says about his own progression, it's not necessarily attributable to the 1-T. 

On a side note, i can really feel the difference training on carbs. In the gym i feel like i want to be there and my endurance is great. I _want_ to do that next set. When i was training on low carbs á la NHE, the sooner i was in the gym the sooner i wanted to be out. Especially during the latter weeks.

So here's the workout:

*BB bench*: 2 sets (progressed by a rep on my first set).
*Decline machine press*: 3 sets. First two sets were well short of failure, stopping at 6 reps because i wanted a heavier weight. I actually think the weight i pressed today is a personal Best but i can't be totally sure of that. My last set had 2 negatives.
*Incline DB bench*: 2 sets. First set using the 36's like i did a few weeks back (then for about 6) getting 10 reps easy. Second set using the 40's, which i've not used for this exercise in over a year, and got 6. So that was cool.
*Weighted dips*: Using done second in my routine, and i've not done them in a while, so i never used my usual weight. 2 sets.
*cable crossovers*: 2 sets. Felt good.

And did some abs to finish up.

So that's quite a few sets for me!


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## Twin Peak (Nov 1, 2002)

nice gains.  I look forward to the second week!


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## Yanick (Nov 1, 2002)

Its great to see your passion to lift returning Rob.  I'm the same way.  I took a week off of my diet a few weeks back and my energy and drive just flooded back into me, i couldn't wait to hit the gym everyday, hellish volume too, just for the hell of it.

Anyway, i'm going to be asking you mucho questions in the next week about random shit, just so i ABSOLUTELY know that i have all my shit together.


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## Robboe (Nov 1, 2002)

I've found some photos from the wedding in London from the end of August i'm gonna try and get round to scanning them in and posting them. Hopefully by tomorrow.


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## Jenny (Nov 3, 2002)

Hey there.. 

Nice pic..  looking good.. Wow, 24 lbs.. that's a lot for sure.. 
Well.. I just had a chocolatechip cookie..  I've been cutting calories for some weeks though and lost about 8 pounds.. Just by basicy avoiding sugars.. and going low in fat.. Not very low carb..
Will read up on your diet here and maybe change my diet..
So, I'll let you know if I have any questions! 

And hey, post those pics from the wedding.. We all want to see you messing with the bridesmaids..  

Meanwhile, I'll try to stay away from the cookie jar...


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## Robboe (Nov 3, 2002)

Low fat diets only work for about 2-3 weeks max before you start running into problems, so i'd advise you quit it.

NHE worked well and it's all fine and dandy, especially for people who have slight eating disorders and find cravings get the better of them. Next time i cut i'm just gonna do a carb/protein/fat diet and keep calories in check, doing proper refeeds every week or so (depending on how often i go out drinking). I say 'proper' meaning focusing on carbs and not fat. Basically, not carbing on chocolate like i did on NHE during the latter stages.

I went out last night and had a great time. All my best friends out together again for once in a long time. 

My ears are totally fucked right now though. Feels like i'm wearing some sort of invisible ear muffs. Quite annoying now.

Leg session went very well. My squat weight is climbing back up, slowly but surely. My SLDL weight is equalling a Personal Best from a few months back as of today. So i was well happy with that. Leg press weight is also accelerating with good speed.

Workout summary:

Squats: 3 sets
SLDLs: 3 sets
Leg press: 2 sets
Extentsions: 2 sets
Hack squats: 2 sets
Leg curls: 2 sets.

Total sets: 14.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 3, 2002)

C'mon man, you know I like to see weights and rep!  At least for SOME of the sets!  Gotta make sure you are training hard and heavy.

BTW, I was in the gym yesterday (rare for me to go on a Saturday) and aside form the powerlifting club being there, there was some huge mofo.  Thing was he was curling with samll weights.  Yet the veins were popping!  Whats that tell you?


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## Robboe (Nov 3, 2002)

GPP?


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## Twin Peak (Nov 3, 2002)

?

I am terrible with anacronyms.


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## Robboe (Nov 3, 2002)

Ok, here's the workout:

Squats: 150k [330] - 6
155k [341] - 4
105k - 12

The weight on my squats are moving back up nicely. I don't wanna jump back up too quick though, or else i never seem to go as low. Which i don't want, naturally.

SLDLs: 170k [374] - 6
172.5k [379.5] - 4 (Eq PB)
140k [308] - 8

Very strong here. A 400lb stiff is in site within this gaining cycle, i can taste it.

Leg press: 260k  [572] - 12
265k [583] - 8

My PB for the press is 280k [616] and i reckon i'll get it back soon enough.

Extensions: 65k - 8
65k - 8

Waaay short of failure here, but the stack only goes to 80k so there's no point in rushing up yet.

Hack squat: 50k [110] - 8
50k - 6

Last week i did these straight after stiffs, but it was being used this week so i just went straight to the press and th exts. last week i did 70k but i was fucked by this point so just went for 50k.

Leg curls: 35k - 8
20k - 9

So all in all, every progressed except hacks for said reason. Which is ace.


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## Robboe (Nov 3, 2002)

General physical preparation.


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## Robboe (Nov 3, 2002)

One thing i've noticed: when i came off the dieting and went to gaining i had some nasty cravings for junk food, but after a couple of week's in calorie surplus (without adding much fat) i feel dandy and the cravings are gone. I don't even want to treat myself for the hell of it, nevermind mentally craving anything.


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## Jenny (Nov 3, 2002)

Ok.. So you think I should change it.. I do eat some fat.. But less than I used to.. I tried the low carb, high protein, mod fat thing for a while last spring and I gained 5 pounds.. Don't think I did for as long as I should to see results, I kinda got scared and stopped.. 

This is a sample day now:
Meal 1:
6whites
1/2 cup oatmeal (cooked with pieces of apple, cinnamon and flax seeds.. Delicious!  )

Meal 2:
Proteinshake
Apple
8 almonds

Meal 3:
4 oz Chicken breast 
veggies

Meal 4:
proteinshake
apple 

Meal 5:
4 oz lean beef
veggies
1/2 cup brown rice

What do you suggest? Lose the apples and add some fats? I love my apples, puh-lease don't make me take them away..  

Thanks, 
Jen


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## Robboe (Nov 4, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Nike_Girl *_
> Ok.. So you think I should change it.. I do eat some fat.. But less than I used to.. I tried the low carb, high protein, mod fat thing for a while last spring and I gained 5 pounds.. Don't think I did for as long as I should to see results, I kinda got scared and stopped..
> 
> This is a sample day now:
> ...



This needs fat of some description. Even adding some of the yolkes here is a good idea.



> Meal 2:
> Proteinshake
> Apple
> 8 almonds



Can't you get some other form of protein in here? If it's whey protein, then it really is wank at any time other than post workout.



> Meal 3:
> 4 oz Chicken breast
> veggies



Fat.



> Meal 4:
> proteinshake
> apple



Same as above re: whey. 

Same as above re: fat.



> Meal 5:
> 4 oz lean beef
> veggies
> 1/2 cup brown rice



Better, but you probably stand to have more fat in here.



> What do you suggest? Lose the apples and add some fats? I love my apples, puh-lease don't make me take them away..
> 
> Thanks,
> Jen



Keep your apple a day. Hell, even i eat an apple a day.

What's the overall calories of that plan?

If they're too low you're fucked (or gonna fuck yourself).

If they're too high you'll not lose anything except maybe water weight, which kinda negates the purpose of a cut, so you're fucked.

Do you not have extreme hunger pains for most of the day with that plan? It would kill me. My binges would go off on a tangent eating like that.

Just ensure:

1. calorie deficit (not too big. Start with bodyweight x15kcals to start with and see what happens real world. Adjust calories to drop between 0.5-1.5lb a week).
2. Ensure adequate protein.
3. Ensure adequate EFAs, which your current plan severely lacks.

And don't stress over stuff so much cause cortisol fucks you over more than the above.


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## Robboe (Nov 4, 2002)

Fantastic delt/arm workout. Not enough time for actual numbers, so:

delts: 

DB press: 3 sets
side laterals: 2 sets
bent laterals: 2 sets

Tris/bis:

CGBP: 2 sets
preachers: 2 sets
seated skulls: 2 sets
DB curl: 1 set

Done.

Again, just like last week, poor time management and getting pulled back an hour by a friedn at Uni to explain to him a java assignment and rob's diet plan is arsed up by a meal or two. So, just like last week, i had a nestle double cream chocolate bar (~700kcals) and a chunky white kitkat (~200kcals) on the way back from the gym. I was considering have a couple of protein bars, but i asked myself: Would i rather have ~900kcals from some nasty-ass protein bar, or 900kcals from chocolate?

Needless to say which won...


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## Twin Peak (Nov 4, 2002)

Good w/o?  How good?


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## Jenny (Nov 4, 2002)

TCD.. you're my god!! 

Yeah.. I know.. I knew you were going to say that.. but I'm such a fat phobic.. 
Ok.. I'll try to switch things around some today.. and let ypu know.. should I keep my oatmeal in meal 1? I'm having it about 30 mins.. so I guess I won't know this morning..  I'll just improvise..

Thank you..  master Chicken daddy..


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## Robboe (Nov 5, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Good w/o?  How good?




4.789' out of 5.


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## Robboe (Nov 5, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Nike_Girl *_
> TCD.. you're my god!!
> 
> Yeah.. I know.. I knew you were going to say that.. but I'm such a fat phobic..
> ...



Providing you have no eating disorders (like binges if you get even slight hunger pangs etc...) where i'd say do a low carb diet (since fat and protein seem to blunt appetite more), just make sure every meal has:

Some low GI carbs (to regulate blood sugar).
some quality, complex protein (i.e. not whey, but it can be handy every here and there. casein shakes are a good choice if you can get it, but ideally, go the wholefood route).
Some fat (with about 20-30% of the make-up being EFA's).
Some fibre (in at least half of your meals. It stretches the stomach out a bit and makes you feel fuller so there's less chance of you going off on a binge).


So an example meal would be:

oats
chicken and cottage cheese (or either on their own)
flax oil
fruit or green veg (the fruit being preferably watery, fibrous - basically, not dried fruit).

Or something to that effect. My example is bland as hell, but a bit of creativity can go a long way. Just keep the calories controlled and in deficit and make sure your workouts are productive.

Fitday has proved extremely helpful for some who don't sit down and plan a diet out that they stick to day in, day out (like moi). Maybe try that?

If not, just plan a diet, print it out, stick it to your cupboard and follow it. And obviously, you know that consistency is everything. One good day's eating is like one good training session - it means fuck all unless you do it regularly.

By the way, you aren't exempt from the rule that all must follow - address me as 'Rob'.


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## Robboe (Nov 5, 2002)

On a side note, i've been seriously deliberating doing shorter gains and cutting cycles.

For example, gain for 6 weeks, cut for 4. Repeat. The 4 week cut would just be a "damage limitation" thing, and the best part is that only 4 weeks cutting wouldn't give me the shitty feeling i get after several weeks cutting. 

If i can gain 2-4lbs of muscle on a 6 week gain, and drop ~2lbs on a 4 week cut, i reckon that could be quite productive. I'm not totally decided yet, so i'd like to hear some opinions.


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## Robboe (Nov 5, 2002)

Oh, and the next little fucker who sets off a fire work outside my house is gonna taste boot sandwich.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 5, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> On a side note, i've been seriously deliberating doing shorter gains and cutting cycles.
> 
> For example, gain for 6 weeks, cut for 4. Repeat. The 4 week cut would just be a "damage limitation" thing, and the best part is that only 4 weeks cutting wouldn't give me the shitty feeling i get after several weeks cutting.
> ...




Funny, I have been considering the exact same thing, 6 bulk, 4 cut.

But then I keep hearing (or seeing) your voice (or words) saying to keep cals high on my off cycle.  I have been thinking this cuz I don't like the fat gain I feel I am getting (shirts are getting tight around the neck and pants are fitting tighter).

Keep me posted on this.


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## Robboe (Nov 5, 2002)

Well i said 6 and 4 for the sake of the round numbers and spending a little longer in surplus for muscle gain. I dunno, would 5 over, 5 under be better? 

I'd doubt such a small detail would make a grand bit of difference but you never know.

Obviously i'm still gonna keep calories above maintenance post cycle, but after about 2 weeks i'll be smashing and i may do a 4 week mini-cut.

If i did a 6 week cycle i'd maybe wait a further 4 weeks before reducing calories enough to lose weight. You don't have to keep the calories as high as you have them now, reduce a bit, but just don't go into calorie deficit.


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## Jenny (Nov 5, 2002)

chicken..err.. Rob..   well... I do know most of that actually.. I mean what I'm supposed to do.. I've been following the whole DPWB thing since the beginning.. But I've kinda been scared to follow it all the way out... And I do love my fruit so darn much.. 

Here's the diet so far today.. comments? have one meal left.. 

Meal 1:
6 whites, 1 yolk
10 almonds
1 cup cabbage
233 cals, 12g fat, 4g carbs, 29g protein
(I'm still a bit hungry... probably need to put oatmeal here too.. )

Meal 2 (after leg workout + cardio ) :
1 apple
1 tbsp flax seed
about 35 g whey powder
310 cals, 14g fat, 16g carbs, 31g protein

Meal 3:
5 oz lean beef 
1 cup cabbage
1/2 cup red pepper and small onions
0.5 tbsp olive oil
376 cals, 19g fat, 0g carbs, 42g protein

Meal 4:
5 oz lean pork
lots of veggies (mushrooms, cabbage, red pepper and spinach..)
1/2 an avocado
small apple
497 cals, 27g fat , 20g carbs, 43g protein


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## Jenny (Nov 5, 2002)

Ooops.. forgot to say THANK YOU.. for helping me..


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## Jenny (Nov 5, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> Some low GI carbs (to regulate blood sugar).
> ...



Jen


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## Robboe (Nov 5, 2002)

Well, that's 1416 kcals so far today.

145g pro (580)
40g carbs (160)
72g fat (648)

So that's 1388kcals (small discrepancy doesn't mean much so don't worry).


How many calories are you shooting for?

If you've been cutting for a while already you may already know, but if not, start theoretically and adjst depending on real world results. Basically, take your body weight and multiply it by 12.

This will be your calorie level you'll be shooting for. After a week or two, assess weight change (under the same conditions as your baseline weight was taken). Aim for a 0.5-1.5lb loss a week. Anymore is eating into muscle (unless you're a fatfuck where dropping a lot of fat at once is easy). Any less and you're not getting anywhere. Tweak your calories to comply with your goals depending on your weight change.

Weight can be effected by water and glycogen and food retention, but it's a more reliable gauge than looking in the mirror IMO, cause 9 people out of 10 always see themselves and less muscular and fatter than they are. (or too skinny for those trying to gain weight).

Don't drop calories too far, too fast.

And with a carb intake like that, carb ups should be mandatory. 1-2 a week.

If you go an isocaloric route (1/3 carbs, 1/3 pro, 1/3 fat) then do a weekly refeed. 

In fact, EVERY diet down should have a carb load/refeed of some description. IMO anyway.

"How much carbs?"

Depends on your bodyweight, calorie needs and meal structure. By my comments above, once you've worked them out, you'll know.

Kiwis are fine, yeah. In moderation.

Beer-ups. Well, try and avoid them cause beer or alcohol serves absolutely no purpose for anything biologically. Mentally, it's cool if you're out for the whole dutch-courage thing and if you enjoy a drink for the nerve calming aspect. Basically, i'm saying keep a social life, but keep tabs on it - once a week.

Lactose in cottage cheese is minimal. You'll never eat enough cottage cheese for lactose to have any adverse effect (the only adverse effect being the possibility of not keeping you full and stimulating breaking diet). Not while you're controlling it on your diet anyway. Besides, lactose won't stop you dropping fat unless you eat more calories with it.

The reason you were hungry after meal one is cause it hardly stretched the stomach enough. Not to mention that you've not eaten for about 8+ hours before that, and all you're having is ~300 kcals for that meal. I'm not saying going off and stuffing your face in the morning, but just look at your calories for meal 4 when you've eaten about 3-4 hours just previously compared to meal one where you've not eaten for over 8 hours.

I'm not too sure why you were/are scared of following the DPw8 strategy of things. They're essentially the same principles as mine only they're stricter with their stuff than me.


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## Jenny (Nov 5, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Well, that's 1416 kcals so far today.
> 
> 145g pro (580)
> ...


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## Robboe (Nov 5, 2002)

1. Correct, you're not a genius.
2. Correct, i'm a rude bastard.
3. haha.
4. If you find the low carb approach easy to follow, go with it. If it's what you've been doing for a little while now, stick to it so later down the line if you need a change up, you can do an iso for a few weeks.
5. re: that cheese stuff. How much would you want to eat a day? It doesn't look too bad. not too calorie dense. You're not gonna eat 100g a time are you? If you eat it in moderation you can still manage.
6. translation was fine.
7. thermos are useful, but you don't really need them regular until the latter stages of the cut. And when i say "need", i mean you can achieve without them but near the end of a cut they can be real useful.


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## Jenny (Nov 5, 2002)

ok.. thanks.. I think that's all for now.. For a rude bastard, you're kinda nice.. 

oh.. right.. one more.. carb-ups.. should they look like DPW8's.. or can I improvise?


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## Robboe (Nov 5, 2002)

Improvise in what way?

Don't do a chocolate carb-up á la Rob.

The carb ups recommended by DPw8 is a beverly one, right? It looks good.


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## Robboe (Nov 5, 2002)

Random ramblings:

1. I'm pissed that i've run out of cottage cheese.
2. This kids cereal tastes ace.
3. 'Answering Bell' by Ryan Adams is a great track.
4. Candlebox are quite brilliant.


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## Robboe (Nov 7, 2002)

Today is the last day of application of this first two week cycle. I'm now gonna spend at least 2 weeks making sure i keep all my gains, via shorter training sessions, lower volume, shy of failure training, EC throughout the day, keeping protein and carbs up (i.e. no low carbs), nicotine gum and extra zinc.

I weighed myself today 3lbs heavier than last week. Probably because my metabolic rate was higher after the weight gain from the first week and i never really amended calories as i should have. 

So i took 20 weeks getting from 220lbs to 195lbs, and three weeks to get 0.5lb heavier than my old weight lol. What a transaction. So yes, i am now 220.5lbs.

Fat gain is hard to judge. By the end of the night i look like i'm in the third trimester, but first thing in the morning i look reasonably leaner. Almost (but not quite) as lean as i was at the end of the cut 3 weeks back. 

I do expect to weigh in lighter within the next few days, purely based on less food retention overall. When i get back from the gym later i'm gonna workout where to reduce calories. I'm gonna work down to 3500, which is slightly above maintence level at this weight.

I'm still considering doing a short cut soon too. There's about 7 weeks till christmas, so i may do these next two weeks recovering from ONE and maybe adding a lb here and there and then do a short 3-4 week cut down to 210-215 (i'm expecting a short drop from less food remember) and then do a further gain, probably using ONE again after christmas. I'll just play it by ear most likely.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 7, 2002)

SO what are your thoughts on ONE?

What were your stength gains?  Any noticable muscle gains?  Vascularity?  Anything you'd attribute to ONE?  Worthwhile in the end?


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## Robboe (Nov 7, 2002)

Hard to judge really.

I wasn't expecting to put that much weight on with the amount of calories i was eating, so i can guarantee it's not all fat gain. Not that much fat gain really, depending on what time during the day you catch me.

I guess a better assessment will be made when i try and gain without it. And then when i go back on it.

I say it's hard to judge due to me coming off a low carb diet and moving onto a carb-based one.

Strength hasn't really been that spectacular at all, in all honesty. Nothing i doubt i couldn't have made in 3 weeks or so without it. I have set a few new PB in the short time using the stuff, but my strength was always hovering around those regions during the cut, so i'm not surprised i've surpassed them when i moved back into cal surplus and carbs.

Back day: no time for figures:

WG chins: 3 sets (progression on these is a bastard due to my sudden weight gain. the weight i attach to myself has gone down. My neck pain is also still there and was bothering me so i never really pushed myself 101%).
BB rows: hit a new PB  3 sets.
CG pulldowns: 2 sets, with the second being a drop set. Progressed by a few reps on both sets.
Low pulley row: 2 sets, again a drop set on second set. Progressed by 2 reps first set and 3 second.

No shrugs due to aforementioned neck pain.

Finished up with some calf work (not noted).

Tomorrow i have chest. I haven't worked out the new calories yet, but if i don't get around to it, i'll just...eat less, basically  I'm good at judging stuff.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 7, 2002)

Hmmm, maybe next cycle I'll stick to my VPX.  Tomorrow is arms again, can't wait!


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## Robboe (Nov 8, 2002)

Did chest earlier.

Great session in fact.

BB bench: 100k - 8 (up 3 from last week)
102.5k - 5 (equalled a PB)

Decline machine press: progressed. It's a poorly designed machine so you gotta use a large weight to provide adequate resistance so i'll not bother typing the weight i used, cause it sounds very unlikely. 2 sets.

Incline DB press: 2 sets. 40k's for 9 reps then 8.

Cables, progressed.

Great pump, great session overall.

Started the EC, nicotine, extra E, extra Zinc today.

calories are gonna be lower but nothing i've officially worked out yet.


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## Robboe (Nov 10, 2002)

Legs went great.

Squats: 3 sets. progressed on all.
SLDL's: 2 sets, set PB's on both.
Leg press: 2 sets, progressed on both.
Leg curl: 2 sets, progressed on first and kept weight static for second.

~Toasted~


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## Yanick (Nov 10, 2002)

Hey Rob, are your progressions as dramatic as TP's? I mean, do you just progress a rep or two, or you do increase weight and reps?


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## Robboe (Nov 10, 2002)

I'm off the ONE now.

My progression wasn't as dramatic no, but my gain of weight was.


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## Yanick (Nov 10, 2002)

The weight gain is definitely going to freak me out, i'm worse than TP.  But i promised myself to stick this out to the end i'll cut later.


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## Robboe (Nov 11, 2002)

Extremely good delt/arm workout. Progressed on all. Numbers later if i have time and can be arsed.

No need for chocolate/protein bars today cause i have plenty of time to get down all my calories.

My body is in an extremely anabolic state right now, and Rob is loving every minute of it.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 11, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> My body is in an extremely anabolic state right now, and Rob is loving every minute of it.



Any ideas or theories as to why?


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## Robboe (Nov 11, 2002)

Calorie surplus 

The most underrated aspect of growth.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 11, 2002)

Startin' to think so too.


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## lina (Nov 12, 2002)

Hi Rob,

Sounds like things are going well   in here...


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## kuso (Nov 13, 2002)

TCD.....I believe TP asked you in the other thread, but it got lost amoungst dg`s posts, but what kind of results did you get with SU/UA, and how did you go about cycling it?

TIA


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## Robboe (Nov 13, 2002)

Started low and worked my way way up.

started with 500mg for a few days, then 750 for a few more then 1g for a few days.

In the last 2 days of use i used 1.25g and was about to move up to 1.5g before i noticed the rash and quit straight away.

I told myself before starting it not to go stupid with it, and now looking back i realise (but didn't then) that i went totally against my own advice.

Next use i'll not top 1g.

I only used for 12 days, but the idea is to use for a bit longer to really see decent results (although some see good results very quick).

The results were nothing magnificent. I suppose a longer duration would have proved better, but i quit once i saw the rash.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 13, 2002)

Where was the rash?


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## Robboe (Nov 13, 2002)

Neck, arms, belly (worst area) and inner thighs.


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## kuso (Nov 14, 2002)

TCD....do you have any links laying around where I could catch myself up on it?


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## Robboe (Nov 14, 2002)

None, sorry.


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## kuso (Nov 14, 2002)

Oh well.....guess I`ll need to search myself then  lol

BTW....are you one of those people that gets rashes etc easily?


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## Robboe (Nov 14, 2002)

Not that i know of.


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## kuso (Nov 14, 2002)

So the ONE hasn`t caused you any discomfort or irritations at all?

Certain deoderats give me rashes, as well as one washing powder, so I`m kinda paranoid about buying it is all! lol


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## Robboe (Nov 14, 2002)

You may be allergic to enzymes.

All i got from one was a few more localised spots.

Trained back earlier.

8 sets, three exercises.

Progressed on two. The first i didn't cause i did the pulldown as opposed to chins, since some dick was using the chin bar.

Weighed in at 216lbs today, which is down 4.5lbs from last week. So that's one week off the ONE.

Reasoning: eating less food, eating less carbs, so less food and water retention.

Right, now i need to decide whether to go to this seminar thingie at 7pm.


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## Yanick (Nov 14, 2002)

is the seminar about anything interesting?


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## Robboe (Nov 14, 2002)

No idea, didn't go.


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## Yanick (Nov 15, 2002)

lol

i bet it was a hard decision.


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## Robboe (Nov 15, 2002)

Went and bought some much needed food instead.

Chest earlier. Good session.

Progressed and set new PB's on both sets of BB bench. ace.

Progressed on decline machine press.

Same weight for same reps on incline DBs. Progressed on cables.

Good fun overall.

And now the new MSN is seriously starting to piss me off.

That is all.


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## kuso (Nov 15, 2002)

MSN seems to have rooted my IE too


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## lina (Nov 17, 2002)

for your siggie....utterly disgusting, yet funny!


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## Robboe (Nov 17, 2002)

Damn right. It had me in stitches for a good long while.

Did legs today, 9 sets in total. Progressed on everything. 

Progression is a beautiful, beautiful thing.

And that's despite yesterday's foodage being a bit fucked up. I went to the Toon match vs Southampton. We sat in the heavens too. I forgot how shitty my vertigo is. The stadium is fucking huge.

Off to see the Foo Fighters very soon.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 17, 2002)

Seems like you are progressing with every w/o.  Nice.  Food is good.


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## Robboe (Nov 17, 2002)

Yup, yup.

Debating whther to cut for a few weeks at the end of this one, or wait till after christmas.

The Foo Fighters ROCK.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 17, 2002)

How much have you gained?  Can you see appreciable muscle growth?  How long would you cut?  How much would you look to lose?


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## Robboe (Nov 18, 2002)

1. hard to say due to water/glycogen/food retention.

2. Yes, i am visibly bigger. Fuller too, since i started the carbs back.

Y'know, i never though i'd EVER use the phrase "fuller" or "fullness" to describe muscles, cause it sounds really dumb IMO, but it really is the easiest way to describe it.

3. If i cut next week, probably for 4 weeks max.

4. As much fat as possible and as little muscle as possible.

Over 4 weeks i doubt i'd lose any muscle.


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## Robboe (Nov 18, 2002)

Delts/arms.

Everything progressed. Which is ace.

I am ace.

I'm pressing the 36's again for DB shoulder press. That's like 80lbers for you Yanks. (Is an 'american' a 'Yank', or just people from NY? I've never been sure). Anyhoo, that's dangerously close to the weight i'm incline pressing right now (the 40's), but then again, my shoulders have always been strong as hell.

Diet schedule was fucked up as per usual like every monday. I stayed at Uni late to sit in a microsoft seminar thing on .NET. It was quite boring but i got some free software for my trouble.

Anyhoo, i treated myself to a chocolate bar (nestle double cream, as usual) after training, as well as one of those new milk/white chocolate Aeros that are currently available. They're well nice.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 18, 2002)

Whats an Aero?

I Yank, if short for Yankee, generically refers to people from the Northeastern part of the States.  In particular, southerners call northerners Yankees -- dated to the civil war.  New Yorkers epitomize Yanks in modern times especially since we are home to the New York Yankees.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 18, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Everything progressed. Which is ace.
> 
> I am ace.



Damn!  You keep it up and in a couple of years you'll be lifting the same weights as me!


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## Robboe (Nov 18, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Whats an Aero?



chocolate bar with bubbles of air in it.


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## Yanick (Nov 18, 2002)

I fuckin love those Aero things.  Although they're not called Aero's over here, but its the same concept.  Man its my favorite chocolate (not like i would say no to any chocolate that is).

Rob, your shoulders are hella strong!  80's on the shoulder press, thats friggin awesome.  I can currently press 50's, maybe.  I haven't done presses in a while though.


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## Robboe (Nov 19, 2002)

Weird how my shoulders are a bit stronger than yours, and yet your bench blows mine away. You must have shorter arms.

Anyhoo,  a birthday of a good friend of many years falls on this here day, so a meal followed by clubbing tonight it shall be.


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## kuso (Nov 19, 2002)

TCD....are you think to volunteer as a tester for 1fast400 this time?


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## Twin Peak (Nov 19, 2002)

I think Mike asked for people who haven't used PH/PS in a while.  Else I would have volunteered myself!


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## kuso (Nov 19, 2002)

Opps....must have missed that bit.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 19, 2002)

You should volunteer yourself!


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## kuso (Nov 19, 2002)

Yeah, but I`ll be off for probably 4 or 5 weeks at Christmas......and can`t take these goddies to Oz...they are very illegal.

The other thing.....I`d like to know what I`m putting into my body.


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## perfecto (Nov 19, 2002)

everythings illegal here


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## Robboe (Nov 19, 2002)

Well, by the time he could send anything over here once he's made his descision i'd be off PS for about 4-5 weeks.

I did send a nice little paragraph about how ace i am in general, but i dunno if i said anything about me being ideal for testing some mystery stuff.

I did, however, include the fact that me being abroad may make such a transaction a bit more complicated for him, since he's not gonna actually derive any money out of it.

Maybe he'll appreciate my honesty 

I'm not expecting to be selected though.


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## Robboe (Nov 21, 2002)

Ok, back dayeeeeee.

Progressed on everything, except chins maybe. I wasn;t sure whether i'd get the chinning bar so i did a heavy set of WG pulldowns (and progressed. Ace.), but then the bar was free and so i did some and matched my work sets from two weeks ago. Make of that what you will.

Everything else went up. I weighed myself 4lbs heavier today from last week, but i imagine the water retention from tuesday's semi-piss-up is to blame. I'll re-weight myself on saturday and see.

No cutting till after christmas either. I've got too much on w/ Uni to be concerned about that.


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## Yanick (Nov 21, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> No cutting till after christmas either. I've got too much on w/ Uni to be concerned about that.




I can relate with you on that one Rob.

School has been kicking my ass lately.


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## Robboe (Nov 21, 2002)

My calories are up and down and all over the place right now.

Some days i'll eat all meals, others i won't.

It's sort of an attempt at damage control during this time period.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 22, 2002)

So this is a conscious decision of calorie cycling?


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## Robboe (Nov 22, 2002)

Sort of, yeah.

Chest workout day was awesome. I progressed on every exercise. Every set in fact.

I even did 7 reps on the incline DB's with the 45's! I'm well proud of myself. Hopefully the gym will get some magnetic weights so i can increment the weight slower than 5k per DB (since they jump from 45-50-55-60, and then by 10 per DB after that up to 90). That's a big jump when we're getting that heavy.


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## kuso (Nov 22, 2002)

Congrats on the progress 

How many days on ONE does this make?


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## Robboe (Nov 22, 2002)

I finsihed up a two week cycle of ONE over two weeks ago haha.

This is all me, baby.


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## kuso (Nov 22, 2002)

Shit!!!! Thats even better then......are you about to start the second cycle now?

BTW....how long did it take to arrive for you?


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## Robboe (Nov 22, 2002)

I'm glad you pay attention to this!

I don't think i'll do another cycle till the new year.

And it took about 3-4 days. Very good service from Mike McCandles.


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## kuso (Nov 22, 2002)

I do most of my reading in the early hours of the morning with full brain fog lol

Anyway, I think your original plan was 2 on 2 off 2 on right? Why the change? Or was that posted already?? lol

I must say this quote from you ""Well, by the time he could send anything over here once he's made his descision i'd be off PS for about 4-5 weeks"" made me wonder. lol


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## Twin Peak (Nov 22, 2002)

Rob, he's drunk.


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## kuso (Nov 22, 2002)

Yep....just went through this again and noticed this...which I had read ""Today is the last day of application of this first two week cycle. I'm now gonna spend at least 2 weeks making sure i keep all my gains, via shorter training sessions, lower volume, shy of failure training, EC throughout the day, keeping protein and carbs up (i.e. no low carbs), nicotine gum and extra zinc.""

But can`t find where you decided to cut or not for the 4 weeks


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## Robboe (Nov 22, 2002)

Nah, i never had a proper plan i was gonna implement. But 2 on, 2 off, 2 on, 4 off, 2 on, 8 off etc.. was a proposed potential plan. At the time it seemed like i was gonna go that route, but i'm in no hurry and other commitments have come up (as expected). And with christmas coming up (during which time i plan on taking a much required week off), i don't see the point.

Yeah, by the time Mike's chosen the testers and shipped out and given instructors, it would be about 4-5 weeks off PS for moi.


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## Robboe (Nov 22, 2002)

Kuso, i decided, just on wednesday i think, not to bother with the 4 week cut just now cause of University commitments. I'm just doing the sub-concious calorie cycling thing for now.

I may squeeze a short cut in the new year and maybe start a proper cut again sometime afterwards. Maybe around easter time.


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## kuso (Nov 22, 2002)

I can see that, if your school year is the same as Oz this is the most stressful time for you as it is.

Are you thinking to stake the ONE with anything next time round, or just stick with the 1-T?


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## Robboe (Nov 22, 2002)

Like what?

4-AD and shit like that?

Nah, i'm not _that_ into all this PS/PH stuff.

1-T was just something i've seen people rave about and wanted to see what all the fuss was about.

At the end of the day, i'm not really big on supplements. This was just an experience i wanted to have.


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## kuso (Nov 22, 2002)

4-AD was what I was thinking.

It is good to see what the fuss is about though, self experimentation and all.


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## Robboe (Nov 22, 2002)

Yeah, i'm like that.

If i offer advice to anyone about something i haven't done or tried, i let them know that i have no personal experience with it before telling them my opinion. It's why i don't try and give gear advice. Not to mention the fact that i know very little about gear.


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## kuso (Nov 22, 2002)

Good to hear! Always good to get advice from someone experienced with the topic, rather than someone who has simply read about it.

lol....not knowing much about it is another good reason not to advise, not that that doesn`t stop some.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 22, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> lol....not knowing much about it is another good reason not to advise, not that that doesn`t stop some.



Shit I better stop advising....


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## kuso (Nov 22, 2002)

Lack of smiles again there TP


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## Twin Peak (Nov 22, 2002)

I wasn't kidding.


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## kuso (Nov 22, 2002)

If we are talking PH/PS here ( which I wasn`t really refering to ), seems to me you have about 2 weeks on TCD there.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 22, 2002)

Experience does not necessarily mean knowledge.  OOOHHH, we can have a thread on that!


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## kuso (Nov 22, 2002)

LOL....haven`t we been there?


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## Yanick (Nov 22, 2002)

Damn, I thought someone deleted this thread, for a second.


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## Twin Peak (Jan 6, 2003)

Hey, how did this go back to 11/22?  I know there have been posts since....what's going on?

Anyway, Rob, I just reread the beginning since I am trying to plan my cut, both type and timing.  Any updates here?  Back to lifting yet?


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## Robboe (Jan 6, 2003)

Started back yesterday.

Three weeks off and the soreness i'm feeling is unreal.

Dropped 8lbs in one week with a stomach bug. All gone now though, thank Christ.


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## Twin Peak (Jan 7, 2003)

That's been going around here to.  Glad to hear you are back.  So what are the short term goals, other than just getting back into it?  Plan on updating this thing?


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## Robboe (Jan 7, 2003)

Not in the immediate future. Too much on, and i'm rarely online at the moment.

Just continue what i'm doing until start of february when i'll focus on trimming down i suspect. Nothing planned or set in stone just yet.


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## AgainstAllOdds (Aug 13, 2003)

So this diet calls for under 20g carbs everyday except for 2 days?

Can you have the carb up days whenever you want--Wouldn't it be best to have it the day of an intense training session and  have training days after--just not around off days? Those days have minimal fat and protein right?

But how do you know how much protein and fat to eat on low carb days? How many calories do you shoot for?

And it works for gaining LBM?

I looked at the site, what foods does he say Increase T levels?

And 

"How most Americans are systematically, but unknowingly, suppressing growth hormone, the "fountain of youth"  hormone! (Considering how profoundly important this hormone is, this piece of information alone  makes the Natural Hormonal Enhancement guidebook worth its
weight in gold!).??????......................."

    *

      Why cashews, almonds, peanut butter, and especially walnuts, can be great allies in the fight against bodyfat. (Of course, most Americans are avoiding these foods like the plague due to the hare-brained, low-fat dietary concept that has been foisted on them by the "experts.").....................................see p. 191

What are those 2 about? I assume the last one is about good fats.


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## AgainstAllOdds (Aug 13, 2003)

You said you have cottage cheese preworkout, then after that meal you have tuna and oil? So that's protein and fat? 

I've heard of that before for postworkout..but why don't you have whey?


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## Robboe (Aug 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by AgainstAllOdds *_
> So this diet calls for under 20g carbs everyday except for 2 days?



The standard is 9 days of <20g carbs/day for the first 9 days. Then 3 days of 20-60g with a carb load in the last one or two meals of the third day followed by 4 days of 20-60g carbs followed by a carb load on the 4th day. And then repeating the 3 day/4 day cycle. So it might look like this:

sun - 20-60g C
mon - 20-60g C
tues - 20-60g C and carb load in evening.
wed - 20-60g C
thur - 20-60g C
fri - 20-60g C
sat - 20-60g C and carb load in evening.



> Can you have the carb up days whenever you want--Wouldn't it be best to have it the day of an intense training session and  have training days after--just not around off days?



If you do the diet, try both and see which you prefer. Some prefer carb loads the night before a training session whereas others prefer on the night of the workout.



> Those days have minimal fat and protein right?



The meals during the days are all the same, only you keep fat minimal during the carb loads themselves. And eat some protein but keep it moderate or else you'll stink and probably feel a bit ill to your gut.



> But how do you know how much protein and fat to eat on low carb days? How many calories do you shoot for?



Gonna be different for everyone. I personally start with about 12kcals/lb of bodyweight and then assess how it effects me via energy levels and weekly weight loss. And the mirror of course.



> And it works for gaining LBM?



Control calories so that you gain muscle but not too much fat pretty much, yeah. May not be totally 100% lean, but calorie control is the important aspect.



> I looked at the site, what foods does he say Increase T levels?



Red meat probably.



> And
> 
> "How most Americans are systematically, but unknowingly, suppressing growth hormone, the "fountain of youth"  hormone! (Considering how profoundly important this hormone is, this piece of information alone  makes the Natural Hormonal Enhancement guidebook worth its
> weight in gold!).??????......................."
> ...



Firstly, he overemphasises hGH.

Secondly, not huge amounts of w-3's in those nuts, but the monounsaturates they yield are good for various stuff.


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## Robboe (Aug 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by AgainstAllOdds *_
> You said you have cottage cheese preworkout, then after that meal you have tuna and oil? So that's protein and fat?
> 
> I've heard of that before for postworkout..but why don't you have whey?



I used to drink whey with a  tablespoon of whipping cream (the pretty much nil sugar type of cream) in it straight after training.


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## DaMayor (Aug 13, 2003)

What's this I see? The infamous TCD firing up the old journal again? Sharing his vast dietetic knowledge with a layman?

You should. It'd be cool.


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## Robboe (Aug 13, 2003)

I would but i rarely get online these days due to work-related long days. But if anyone has any questions i can help with or give insight into any personal experience then i'm more than happy to.


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## DaMayor (Aug 13, 2003)

Yeah, you've mentioned your busy schedule a few times lately. 
Hey, do it when you can, this board could use the insight. No offense to present mods, of course.


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