# Women & Drugs - if you're female or helping a female - READ THIS



## sassy69 (Nov 18, 2011)

*Females and Drugs
*_by sassy69 (moderator)_*


OTC Fat Burners**
*
There are lots of ???fat burners??? out there. Depending on how recently you???ve done a walk through a GNC, you may be more or less familiar with the different brands. It???s been a long time since I walked through a GNC so I am not up on the latest. You may need to experiment with different products to see which works best with your own body chemistry, and also keeping in mind things like can you take it on an empty stomach (e.g. if you???re thinking AM fasted cardio).  Generally IMO it???s more important to find the one that allows you to function during your day and sleep at night, as opposed to worrying about getting tweaked out enough to ???lose weight???. 


*Ephedrine**
*
If you want to go back to basics, you can build your own ECA stack with individual components like NoDoze (classic college-finals week caffeine supplement), Ephedrine and aspirin (cheap off-brand is fine if you want to keep things cost-efficient). 

Ephedrine Profile

Here are a couple articles on use of Ephedrine:

·        ???Efficacy and Safety of Ephedra and Ephedrine for Weight Loss and Athletic Performance???
·        Efficacy of herbal ephedra-containing dietary supplements and ephedrine on weightloss
·        Ephedra Side-effects
·        Difference between Ephedra and Ephedrine (re: when Ephendrine was banned in the US) 


To build your own stack:

·         E/C: 1:10 ratio of ephedrine to caffeine. Typical is 25 mg ephedrine + 200-250 mg caffeine

·         E/C/A:  1:10:10 ??? 1:10:15 ratios. Adding in aspirin thins your blood a little to extend the effect of the E/C. Recommendations for aspirin range from a baby aspirin (80 mg) to a regular aspirin (325 mg)

Another variation is ephedrine / caffeine / yohimbine HCl (ECY). Yohimbine is great as an appetite suppressant, but too much of it can leave you feeling sick to your stomach.
·         E/C/Y: 25 mg ephedrine + 200-250 mg caffeine + 5 mg yohimbine..

You can take any of these combinations at 2-3 times / day, but it is generally recommended to not take anything after 3 pm, or determine how late into the day the last dose affects you, and make that the latest time of your last dose so you can sleep. Anything that affects your sleep will reduce your quality recovery time and begin to negate any progress you make from the compound you???re taking. 


*Non-OTC Fat Burners*

Women are often more interested in ???fat loss??? before they are interested in muscle growth, particularly for competition prep. The following compounds are explicitly not steroids, but they are generally controlled substances or by prescription only. These are the first line of supplements that women start to hear about to ???lose fat??? or ???lean up???.  

*Clenbuterol*

Clenbuterol is prescribed as a bronchodilator for asthma,  but also has the additional effect of increasing metabolism. The claim is a 10% increase in metabolism over ECA, which claims a 3% increase in metabolism. (I have seen this often quoted but never found an original study to back this up.) Clenbuterol has a 36-39 hour half-life ??? meaning if you take it, or worse, too much, you have to ride it out for about a day and a half. Some people panic if they take too much, and head to the Emergency Room, where the doctors will still just tell you that you need to ride it out until it wears off. There is nothing you can take to ???make it stop??? before then.

Clenbuterol Profile:
·         Clenbuterol
·         Clen FAQ

Clenbuterol has also been called ???anti-catabolic??? ??? meaning it does not promote muscle loss as part of the increase in metabolism to reduce bodyfat. Here are a couple studies that imply that clenbuterol, interestingly on a restricted diet, does promote some amount of muscle growth (or preservation) in research animals:

*·         **Effect of clenbuterol on growth, nitrogen and energy balances and endocrine status in food-restricted sheep.*
*·         *Effects of clenbuterol on the metabolism of nitrogen and IGF-I level in isolated perfused rat liver.

Some additional considerations when using clenbuterol:

*·         *Supplement with (3-5g/day) l-taurine ??? clenbuterol tends to inhibit l-taurine in your system, producing cramps

  [FONT=&quot]*o        *[/FONT]*The effects of the beta 2-agonist drug clenbuterol... [Amino Acids. 1998] - PubMed result*
*·         **Using Ketotifen with clenbuterol (2-3mg ED)*
  [FONT=&quot]*o        *[/FONT]*Ketotifen Profile*
  [FONT=&quot]*o        *[/FONT]*Note Ketotifen is prescribed as an anti-histamine. It can make you sleepy so better to take it at night.*
  [FONT=&quot]*o        *[/FONT]Effects of ketotifen and clenbuterolon beta-adrenergic receptor functions of lymphocytes and on plasma TXB-2 levels of asthmatic patients:


*·         **Using Benedryl with clenbuterol*
  [FONT=&quot]*o        *[/FONT]???Bro-telligence??? has often recommended using Benedryl to allow you to run clenbuterol longer without an ???off??? cycle to reduce down regulation of receptors. This is NOT true. Benedryl will only help you sleep if you???re overstimulated by a clen cycle. Ketotifen is the better choice for longer clen cycles.

With regard to cycling clenbuterol, I suppose this falls under bro-telligence. Following are two common cycles:
*·         **2 weeks ???on??? / 2 weeks ???off??? for 8-12 weeks*
  [FONT=&quot]*o        *[/FONT]Starting at 20 mcg, increasing by 20 mcg units as you can handle, until what you can handle or a maximum of100 mcg per day, and then stay at that amount for the duration of the two weeks. Then stop and go off for 2 weeks, substituting your favorite OTC thermo, and then repeating the 2 weeks ???on???, again starting at 20 mcg.
*·         **Continued ???on???  for 8-12 weeks, include ketotifen*
  [FONT=&quot]*o        *[/FONT]Starting at 20 mcg for a week, increase by 20 mcg per week until what you can handle or a maximum of100 mcg per day, and then stay at that amount for the duration of

*Thyroid Medication: T3 and T4*

  The *thyroid hormones thyroxine* (*T4*) and triiodothyronine (*T3*), are tyrosine-based hormones produced by the thyroid gland primarily responsible for regulation of metabolism. T4 converts to T3, with T3 being 3-4 times stronger than T4. Synthetic T4 (Synthroid) is often prescribed for people diagnosed with hypothyroidism (???sluggish thyroid???).

T3 Profile: 
·         T3 Profile

  On a side note, thyroid disease is not uncommon in women. I would hesitate to blame ???can???t lose weight??? on the thyroid, as people often look for pills-based solutions or some excuse before they???ll spend the time revisiting their diet & training programs. But that said, if you feel there is an issue, by all means, talk to your doctor about it and get a thyroid panel done.  Here is some starting information about this subject_:  __Metabolic Mysteries: Undiagnosed Thyroid Disease and Women_.

An overview of these thyroid hormones may be found here: Thyroid hormone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  T3 is frequently suggested as part of a fat-loss protocol. It is important to be conservative with use of T3 if you choose to go that route. You are manipulating your thyroid via self-medication. Too much and you will immediately feel lethargic. General guidance also suggests to be slow in your dosing ??? taper off when you are coming off instead of just dropping it cold. The body generally can adapt to small changes but tends to rebound with large, sudden changes.

  Another very important consideration with T3 is that bumps up metabolism??? but that means metabolism of everything ??? both lean muscle mass and bodyfat. Women tend to be so focused on ???fat loss??? that they forget about the importance of muscle mass. Building and preserving muscle mass has nothing to do with ???looking like a man??? or ???getting huge???, but rather about the keeping the body component that helps you burn bodyfat more efficiently, and it also goes into what makes up a bodyfat percentage. ???What???s your bodyfat???? means what is the ratio of lean muscle mass to bodyfat in your body? It is great to drop bodyfat, but if you are sacrificing muscle mass, your overall bodyfat percentage will not drop the way you want it to. The lack of muscle mass can contribute to a higher bodyfat percentage (what we often call ???skinny-fat???0 just as higher bodyfat percentage. 

  To this end it is not generally recommended to cycle T3 without an anabolic support. Either an AAS or, a very common  stack is with clenbuterol, which has been shown to be anabolic, or at least anti-catabolic.

Typical Cycle: 

It is not recommended to run T3 by itself. Combine either of the following with an AAS or a clen cycle.

·         25-50 mcg per day, for the duration of your cycle ??? this keeps it very simple and is not aggressive.

·         Start at 12.5 mcg for a week, increase by 12.5 mcg per week until a maximum of 75 mcg. Then taper back down by 12.5 mcg every 3 days.


* ???Anti-estrogens???*

  There are two classes of estrogen manipulators that often fall under the term ???anti-estrogens???.  The first are *Selective Estrogen Receptor Manipulators (SERMs*). The only current example out there is Tamoxifen Citrate (brand name: Nolvadex). This operates specifically on the ovarian-driven estrogen process. The second category that falls under ???anti-estrogens??? are *Aromatase Inhibitors (AI???s) *that operate not on ovary-originating  estrogen, but rather that resulting from aromatization (or conversion to estrogen) of testosterone. Examples of testosterones that convert are exogenous testosterones (anabolic androgenic steroids) such as Testosterone Propionate, Nandrolone Decoanate (???Deca???),  or Dianabol (???d-bol???). There is also a natural source of androgen that converts to estrogen ??? that produced by the adrenal glands, in both men and women. When women enter menopause and their ovary-originating estrogen is no longer produced, the only remaining source of naturally produced estrogen is that resulting from the adrenals. Examples of AI???s are Arimidex, Aromasin and Letrozole. In practice, both these and Nolvadex, are all primarily prescribed as breast cancer treatment for post-menopausal women.


AI Profiles:
·         Tamoxifen Citrate (Nolvadex)
·         Aromasin
·         Arimidex


  Women are more likely to use a SERM like Nolvadex to address the bodyfat associated with estrogen ??? specifically the stuff that tends to collect around the hips, thighs, lower abdomen and butt.  It is important to note that each person has her own distribution of fat cells ??? estrogen tends to promote a higher concentration of fat cells in those lower areas as part of a natural preservation strategy to protect a fetus and also to provide an extra storage of energy source (bodyfat) to help support a growing fetus and the mother if there is any issue with available food sources (i.e. a drought scenario).  This is by design and using an estrogen inibitor as a weight-loss strategy is not a good idea. Estrogen is one of the three basic hormones that make up who we are, and drive everything from moods to how we look and feel.  Estrogen is there for a purpose and should not be completely suppressed only for the purpose of fat loss. 
  Nolvadex acts to fake out the estrogen receptors (envision a safety protector that you put into outlets as part of baby-proofing your house) and essentially cutting off the estrogen process, instead of literally turning it off.  For cycle duration, it is recommended to keep it to 4-8 weeks maximum. Long-term use of Nolvadex has the potential to introduce health issues as described in this article:  _Side effects of long-term use of tamoxifen_ (Side Effects Of Long-term Use Of Tamoxifen | LIVESTRONG.COM).  .In the extreme, full estrogen shut down in women can lead to what is often referred to as the ???Female Athlete Triad??? ??? basically estrogen shutdown as a result of an eating disorder such as anorexia, which leads to reduction in calcium, and eventually to brittle bones and a host of other issues related to a stopped period. Here is an overview of the Female Athlete Triad. Though this discussion is not focused on eating disorders, the end result, if someone decided to use  medical estrogen suppression as a long-term weightloss protocol, is the same. This is just to reinforce that this is not a good idea.

  The estrogen process tends to be fairly resilient so coming off a reasonable duration cycle can produce an estrogen rebound when the process is no longer inhibited. There isn???t much documentation about this rebound, but general guidance is to taper off a cycle by reducing the dose (e.g. in half, every 3 days). 

  In the context of this article, Aromatase Inhibitors are more specific to the estrogen produced as a result of using an aromatizing steroid. This means that the steroid cycle is more aggressive and will produce side effects such as water retention and potentially more mood swings, as the converted estrogen may be adding to natural estrogen levels, enhancing typical estrogen effects that might be experienced during a menstrual cycle. AI???s are more commonly used by men who cycle as the increase in estrogen can produce such side effects in men as gynocomastia (enlarged breast tissue), water retention, mood swings, etc.  For men, as well as women, full estrogen suppression is not helpful if the goal is to build muscle as water (e.g. from estrogen) is needed to create a ???growth environment??? in the muscle. Estrogen suppression can help to create a tighter look (e.g. for competition), but full suppression can produce too much dryness, including painful joints.  Generally speaking AI???s are not recommended for pre-menopausal women who are new to steroid cycling or using non-aromatizing compounds. If they choose to use an AI, it needs to be very conservatively used, as it is very easy to shut down estrogen with these compounds. The effects are similar to that noted above for long-term use of Nolvadex ??? hot flashes, etc. 

Typical Use:

Primarily Nolvadex is used during the last 4-8 weeks of a contest prep to help reduce bodyfat in the hips / thighs / waist area. Again, it will not do the heavy lifting, but will support a tight contest prep. It is possible to experience either immediate interruption of menstrual flow, or breakthrough bleeding within 4 weeks of starting the cycle. Also once coming off, the effects will not be maintained and the estrogen-pattern bodyfat depositing will continue again. ???Estrogen rebound??? is often experienced as well, thus the taper down is recommended. Because of the potential of this rebound it is recommended to cycle Nolvadex with a specific end / target date in mind, followed by an expected rebound while your body recovers from the prep phase.

  More aggressive aromatase inhibitors are not generally recommended unless you are an experienced cycler running aromatizing compounds such as NPP. If your cycle is intended for a bulker phase, then don???t use the AIs as you need the estrogen to build muscle mass and the water gain is minimal with most compounds women use.

Typical Cycle:

·         Nolvadex: 10- 20 mg per day, split in half AM and half PM for maximum of 8 weeks.
·         Arimidex: 0.5 mg EOD (only with an aromatizing AAS) for maximum of 6-8 weeks
  [FONT=&quot]o        [/FONT]AIs are very aggressive and will produce dry-feeling joints. If you experience aggressive hot/cold flashes and feeling sick, taper off over a couple days and stay off. 
·         Aromasin: 25 mg EOD (only with an aromatizing AAS) for a maximum of 6-8 weeks
  [FONT=&quot]o        [/FONT]AIs are very aggressive and will produce dry-feeling joints. If you experience aggressive hot/cold flashes and feeling sick, taper off over a couple days and stay off. 



*Human Growth Hormone (hGH)*

  Growth Hormone is often recommended for ???fat loss???. It is not a ???fat burner??? in the same sense as clen or ephedrine, but instead falls under the larger category of ???anti-aging??? compounds or ???hormone replacement therapy???. In these contexts, it is intended to be dispensed under the supervision of a qualified physician based on constant monitoring of IGF-1 levels. This is the indicator used to track growth hormone production by the hypothalamus. Essentially this is what drives ???youthfulness???. The hypothalamus produces optimal levels of growth hormone around age 18-21. These levels begin to decrease after age 30-35 as the hypothalamus shrinks with age.  The idea behind supplementing with hGH is to return the levels of growth hormone to optimal levels, as if you were still in the prime of your life. 

  In practical use, as mentioned above, hGH is used for its anti-aging properties, as a maintenance protocol for older folks, or to promote those youthful properties with specific  interest in promoting fat loss, or rather not promoting age-related fat depositing, or stacked with an AAS cycle to enhance the overall effect.

Human Growth Hormone Profile: 
·         hGH Profile

Typical Use:

  GH is often recommended for women for ???weight loss???.  By itself, GH does NOT promote muscle growth in the same sense as AAS, as it is not sex hormone. Instead, it will work to promote those youthful features such as healthy hair, improved skin elasticity, better sense of well-being, better healing capability, and more optimized metabolism to promote a preference for less bodyfat depositing.  It might also be viewed as a support during the extremes of competition prep for the body. With a steroid cycle, such as anavar, it would work to enhance the effects of that compound. The effects of a GH cycle are not immediate and dramatic, but rather subtle and slow to show over time.

Typical Cycle:

·         Dose:
  [FONT=&quot]o        [/FONT]For non-competition use, and more for general maintenance and youthfulness: 1 iu per day
  [FONT=&quot]o        [/FONT]For competition / with a cycle: 2-3 iu per day
  [FONT=&quot]o        [/FONT]Primarily for cost purposes, 5 days on / 2 days off is often suggested.

·         Duration:  4-6 months is ideal. Very short cycles such as a month, are not really going to show any particular results for the cost.

Potential Sides:

·         Some people experience water retention. The dose can be dropped or the dose increased but split across 2 days instead of 1 day (i.e. E2D instead of E1D).
·         At higher doses (e.g. 4 iu) wrist pain similar to carpal tunnel syndrome is commonly experienced.

·         Very aggressive use may fall into the extreme category of acromegaly (http://www.med.unsw.edu.au/ndarcweb.nsf/resources/ndarcfact_drugs2/$file/hgh+ndarc+fact+sheet.pdf)


*Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS)*
*
**A note about available steroid information*_: Most of what is out there on muscle forums and even medical studies is primarily written with men in mind. The subject of women and steroids is much less studied and published. The detail written here is based on both published and anecdotal information, and some good guesses based on ???what seems to work???.  This puts more of the onus on women to educate themselves to make informed choices for themselves. Always remember: YOUR body, YOUR results, YOUR sides. Well-intentioned husbands / boyfriends / male friends / guys from the gym, even experienced, are not necessarily going to be giving you the best or right information on which to base your decisions. The basic chemistry is different, the dosing is different and the risks are different.  At the end of the day, it is always your own personal chemistry experiment and no one can take the risks for you. 
_
*And a last note on what should be the obvious thought*_ ??? ANY supplement ??? over-the-counter, prescribed or illegal, is always only going to be a SUPPLEMENT to an already existing and functioning diet and training program. There are no quicky fixes and nothing is for free. You will not get the results you envision using any supplement if you don???t already have your diet and training in place and working. If this is not true, chances are you are going to end up in a place worse than better. _
 This section will include links to the standard steroid profiles for the technical details, with most of the discussion focused on use, specifically for women. Please note that most steroid profiles are written with men in mind as the target audience and relative to male hormone profiles. Any dosing recommended is not going to be appropriate for women unless otherwise specified.

Here are two articles in general that are worth reading: 
·         Women and Steroids
·         Women and Testosterone: 


*Anavar (Oxandrolone)*

Anavar is probably the most commonly used AAS by women, for physique competition or by women who "want to go to the next level". It might be used by figure competitors for off-season building with an appropriate diet, or during contest prep for cutting, preservation of muscle during a cutting diet, and improved recovery.

Anavar promotes lean muscle mass with minimal sides and occasional water retention. It is a oral steroid, though used in small enough doses that its impact on the liver is minimal for women. It is also attractive to women and beginners who are not interested in dealing with needles. The predictable and minimal sides are also attractive points to those not wanting to deal with the more individual and androgenic sides of most other AAS.

Anavar Profile

Typical Cycle

·         Dose: 10 mg / day - split the dose 1/2 in the AM, 1/2 in the PM
·         Duration: 10-14 weeks

·         No need to taper down the dose or follow with post cycle therapy (PCT).
·         It is generally suggested to start the cycle at 5 mg / day (splitting doses as above) for the first 10-14 days to identify any adverse reaction. After that time, you can increase to 10 mg / day. 

·         Suggested maximum dose is 20 mg / day (though more is not better - often 10 mg is sufficient). As the dose increases, sides may increase and results don't necessarily increase. Anecdotally, if the cycler is interested in going to doses above 20 mg, the sides can begin to accumulate and the impact on your liver becomes more of a consideration. Based on this and the cost (anavar is typically one of the more expensive compounds), if you are looking for more aggressive results, this is the point where people will move to a more aggressive, cheaper, injectable compound.

Typical Sides

·        interrupted period / flow - may take a few months for the flow to come back as normal. Note this does NOT mean you won???t get pregnant.
·        you may still experience usual menstrual sides (cramps, bloating, etc.) on your regular menstrual schedule
·        mild acne
·        Clitoral enlargement and increased sensitivity
·         oily hair
·        some experience water retention (though not due to aromatization)
·        may cause vaginosis / yeast infection (most any AAS has this potential)
·        occasionally people experience nose bleeds


*Winstrol*

Winstrol, or ???winny???, is one of the steroids most commonly suggested for women (along with anavar and primobolan). Winstrol comes in both oral and water-based injectable form. It is attractive to women or recommended for women because it is an oral, it has a relatively short half-life and detection time (i.e .it clears the system relatively quickly, reducing the duration of any undesirable sides following completion of a cycle), and promotes lean muscle mass without water retention. It is most commonly viewed as a ???cutter??? for physique competition. Winstrol is also attractive as it tends to be both cheaper and more readily available than anavar or primobolan. Because of this, it is also less likely to be faked.

Winstrol is often grouped with anavar as a good steroid for ???beginners??? or those who don???t want to go into the more aggressive compounds (i.e. injectables). However it is more androgenic than anavar and sides are less predictable and more unique to the individual, with the potential of being very androgenic. Because of this, anavar would generally be the better recomendation, but winstrol is seen as a viable alternative. As an androgenic compound, it also has a ???fat burning??? effect. 

Winstrol Profile

Typical Use:

Winstrol is most commonly used both by men and women, as a cutter during competition prep. It promotes lean, hard muscle mass without water retention. One might see figure competitors running a winstrol-only cycle, or a more advanced physique competitor using it in a stack towards the final weeks of a competition prep. It might also be used, especially in oral form, by someone who wants to ???take it to the next level???, not necessarily for competition.

Typical Cycle:

·         Oral Winstrol: Can be cycled similarly to anavar.
[FONT=&quot]o        [/FONT]Dose: 5-15 mg/day- split the dose ½ in the AM, ½ in the PM
[FONT=&quot]o        [/FONT]Duration: 8-12 weeks
[FONT=&quot]o        [/FONT]Takes about 10-14 days to ???show??? itself.

·         Injectable Winstrol:
[FONT=&quot]o        [/FONT]Dose: 25 mg E3D
[FONT=&quot]o        [/FONT]Duration: 8-12 weeks

·         No taper or post-cycle therapy needed

·         If chosen to include in a competition cutting stack, schedule towards the final weeks of prep. It takes about 2 weeks to ???show??? itself.

Typical Sides:

·         Interrupted period/flow ??? may take a few months for the flow to come back as normal.
·         May still experience usual menstrual sides (cramps, bloating, etc.) on your regular menstrual schedule.

·         Mild to aggressive acne on face or shoulders
·         Clitoral enlargement and increased sensitivity
·         Oily skin / hair
·         Hairloss
·         Scratchy throat / cracky or deepening voice
·         Dry joints
·         may cause vaginosis / yeast infection (most any AAS has this potential)
·         Winstrol is occasionally called the ???snake bite??? drug in that it either likes you or it doesn???t. People will occasionally experience flu-like symptoms within the first week or two of a winstrol cycle in response to this compound.


*Primobolan*

Primobolan or ???primo???, comes in both oral and injectable form. The injectable, Primobolan Depot, is most commonly used. Tab form, primobolan acetate, was popular but had disappeared for a while. It has recently become more available. 

Primobolan Profile

Typical Use:

Primo has been listed as one of the top three favorite cycles for women, in addition to anavar and winstrol. Because it does not aromatize, again it is a favorite cycle both for cutting or bulking off-season. Lean gains are good for a women looking to build some size but not get ???hyuge???. The injectable was the only one available for several years, so it was seen as a more aggressive cycle which required injections. Beyond the issue with injections, it is the more popular and more readily available of the two. In the late 90s into the 2000???s, it had a reputation frequently being faked because it was not a cheap compound.  The tabs, as most other orals, are seen as less ???hardcore??? and more acceptable for women. Primo tabs are unique in that the oral form is one of the few orals that is not hard on the liver, but at the same time, it loses a degree of its strength as it passes through your system, thus higher doses are required. 

Typical Cycle:

·         Injectable Primo:
[FONT=&quot]o        [/FONT]Dose: 50-150 mg per week
[FONT=&quot]o        [/FONT]Duration: 10-14 weeks
[FONT=&quot]o        [/FONT]Tends to take about 5 weeks to ???show??? itself.
·         Primo tabs:
[FONT=&quot]o        [/FONT]Dose: 50-75mg per day
[FONT=&quot]o        [/FONT]Duration: 10-14 weeks

·         No taper or post-cycle therapy is needed.

·         This is often the primary component of a prep phase. It can be run all the way up to a show without promoting water retention issues.
·         More experienced cyclers will often stack with winstrol or anavar.

Potential Sides:

·         Notorious for hairloss  - A shampoo like Nizoral or Nioxin can help minimize this.
·         Acne (face or shoulders)
·         Facial hair growth
·         Sore throat / cracky or deepened voice
·         Clitoral enlargement and increased sensitivity
·         Oily hair
·         Interrupted period/flow ??? may take a few months for the flow to come back as normal.
·         May still experience usual menstrual sides (cramps, bloating, etc.) on your regular menstrual schedule.
·         may cause vaginosis / yeast infection (most any AAS has this potential)


*Proviron*

Proviron is a highly androgenic compound that is used primarily during the final weeks of a competition cutting phase to help lean out in the mid-section. It is often stacked with Nolvadex to synergistically lean out the hips/thighs/waist. Being fundamentally androgenic (as opposed to anabolic), proviron will not promote muscle growth as much as it promotes leanness and hardness. For short cycles (e.g. 8 weeks maximum), sides are minimal.

Proviron Profile

Typical Use:

Proviron would be stacked with Nolvadex as a final 4-8 week dial into a competition date.

Typical Cycle:

·         Nolvadex: 10-20 mg ED, split in half in a morning dose and late afternoon / night dose for 4-8 weeks, tapering off after the target date or cycle end date to reduce ???rebound???.
·         Proviron: 25 mg ED, split in half in a morning dose and a late evening / night dose. No need to taper the dose when the target date or cycle end date is over.


*Equipoise*

Equipoise or ???EQ??? is an injectable steroid that has low aromatization. It is seen as a nice cycle that produces good gains with minimal water retention.

Equipoise Profile

Typical Use:

For an experienced cycler, as an off-season bulker without water retention, or at the beginning of a contest prep, again without water retention. Anecdotally, some people experience an increase in hunger on EQ, so it might fit well with a bulker phase. EQ also promotes connective tissue repair, which can be useful in protecting the joints and ligaments while a cycle is increasing your strength (i.e. the joints become the weak link).

Typical Cycle:

·         Dosage: 50-150 mg / week.
·         Duration: 6-10 weeks
·         Tends to take about 5 weeks to ???show??? itself

Potential Sides:

·         Acne (face or shoulders)
·         Oily skin
·         Hairloss
·         Clitoral enlargement and increased sensitivity
·         Sore throat / cracky or deepening voice
·         Facial hair growth
·         Interrupted period ??? would typically return the first full month after the duration of the EQ detection time following the last injection
·         may cause vaginosis / yeast infection (most any AAS has this potential)


*Nandrolone Phenyl Propionate (NPP)*

There are several different forms (esters) of Nandrolone available. NPP is the shorter-acting ???Deca??? (nandrolone decanoate) that would be more likely recommended for women. The longer acting Deca will produce more water retention and more aggressive sides due to the longer ester (clearing time). This is a more aggressive cycle for women with some water retention and longer detection time than the more commonly used injectables such as primo.

Nandrolone Profile

Typical Use:

For women, NPP falls into the scope of really only for those experienced who are looking for significant growth and are prepared to deal with the full scope of potential sides.  It might be considered an off-season cycle for a female bodybuilder or used at the beginning of a 16 week prep, to be later dropped and replaced with a non-aromatizing compound.

Typical Cycle:

·         Dose:15- 25 mg E3D
·         Duration: 8-10 weeks

·         As we get into the much more aggressive cycles, it becomes more of a personal preference on dosing based on goals and any other stacked compounds

Potential Sides:

·         Water retention
·         Acne (face or shoulders)
·         Oily skin
·         Hairloss
·         Sore throat / cracky or deepening voice
·         Facial hair growth
·         Clitoral enlargement and increased sensitivity
·         Interrupted period ??? would typically return the first full month after the duration of the EQ detection time following the last injection


*Testosterone Propionate*

There are several esters of testosterone, but only the Propionate ester, also known as ???Test Prop???, would be recommended for women. The other variations commonly used by men, Test Cypionate, Test Enanthate, or Sustenon, are considerably longer-acting esters, producing much more water retention and more aggressive sides, taking a much longer to clear the system.

Test Propionate Profile

Typical Use:

For women, Test Prop falls into the scope of really only for those experienced who are looking for significant growth and are prepared to deal with the full scope of potential sides.  It might be considered an off-season cycle for a female bodybuilder or used at the beginning of a 16 week prep, to be later dropped and replaced with a non-aromatizing compound. It is reasonably short-acting so will begin to produce results (and sides) fairly quickly. This compound does aromatize, but due to its short ester, it reasonably limited. There is no real need for an aromatase inhibitor with this compound, but be aware that it does still produce some water retention.

Typical Cycle:

·         Dose:15- 25 mg E4D
·         Duration: 4-6 weeks
·         As we get into the much more aggressive cycles, it becomes more of a personal preference on dosing based on goals and any other stacked compounds

Potential Sides:

·         Water retention
·         Acne (face or shoulders)
·         Oily skin
·         Hairloss
·         Sore throat / cracky or deepening voice
·         Facial hair growth
·         Clitoral enlargement and increased sensitivity
·         Interrupted period ??? would typically return the first full month after the duration of the EQ detection time following the last injection


*Trenbolone (Finaplex)*

Trenbolone acetate, or ???tren ace??? or ???tren a??? is more recently, being mentioned more frequently with women. It is a favorite among men because it promotes strength while allowing great cutting results with no aromatization. The issue is that this compound is extremely androgenic and also very harsh on the liver.  Very experienced female cyclers may use trenbolone acetate as part of a cutting cycle, but should be very careful and diligent with their bloodwork afterwards .I hesitate to include cycle information here because you should already have an idea of the cycle details if you are at a point where you are considering running a tren cycle.

Trenbolone Profile

*Post Cycle Notes*
Generally women don't run aggressive cycles and can just end the AAS cycle. The compound(s) will attenuate over time as their individual half-lives. (Ref: compound detection time for longest point after last dose that the compound can be detected in the system). During that time, just as at the beginning of the cycle, there is a big flux in the hormone profile. Drawing a comparison to "that time of the month", the sides can seem more pronounced and in particular, some moodiness may result. The range of this is something that is very unique to each person, and even unique to each compound + each person's unique body chemistry.

Anticipating this, pay attention to your general state of mind post-cycle. If you find yourself getting depressed or moody, step back and acknowledge that it is the effect of the hormones, and not something else happening in your daily life. If you happened to be using prescription anti-depressants, I would suggest you be particularly aware of your state of mind.  One OTC option to help even out your moods is Inositol. This is essentially just a B-vitamin, ideally in powder form.  For more information about inositol and depression treatment, here is an article (ref: http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...ngredientid=299&activeingredientname=inositol), or you can just google "inositol, depression" for a bunch of information. Powder inositol is recommended over inositol tabs/caps or anything that might be mixed into the tab/cap w/ inositol.

Another obvious effect of coming off a cycle is the reduction (or back to "normal") in recovery ability and strength and maybe some of the increased sense of well-being that comes w/ AAS. The loss of these can be both humbling and frustrating, however it's important to keep things in perspective as you can't stay on a cycle forever without hitting a point of negative returns. It is supposed to be a "cycle" - a phase w/ a specific goal, and then letting your body adapt to the change and retain as much as possible. Generally a longer cycle (ideally w/ lower doses) will allow the body a longer time to adapt to the changes. Again, monitor yourself as the compound(s) clear out of your system in terms of strength and recovery - adjust your training and your expectations to match this phase of your progress to avoid burnout or injury. If appropriate, also adjust your diet if you won't be training as heavily. 

*Things to Remember*

In summary, some basic things to keep in mind if you want to play on the dark side:
·         *More is NOT better.* It???s about finding a workable balance for YOUR hormone levels, your goals and your experience.

·         *Never forget that you are self-medicating with* *hormones* - it is always your own personal experiment. Slow & low is your best approach. 

·         *Don't stack a pile of stuff you've never run each individually before* - you have no idea how these compounds affect your body so you can't make judgements on what to cut / what is bad / what is good for your body chemistry. Also there is an accumulated effect when you are throwing all sorts of stuff in the pile. Fundamentally you are jacking up the amount of DHT in your system. Know the half life of each compound you are interested in - some are much longer than others so if you don't like the sides, on longer esters, tough shit. Now you gotta wait for the compound to clear your system before the sides go away. 

·         *Know the potential sides* - anything is possible in any degree ??? there is no such thing as ???no sides???- only those that you don???t experience - it is very individual so you are still running your own personal experiment.

·         *You don't need to be "scared" of the sides* - you either accept them or you don't. You can't pick which ones you want & which you don't and you can't predict what you will experience until you try it. It???s more about managing risk by educating yourself, staying at conservative doses and watching how your body responds. If you are ???scared??? of the sides, you have no business cycling.

·          *Don't listen to other people - especially guys*. They will have a completely different experience w/ different doses & different compounds. A tiny little amount of anything will have dramatic effects on women compared to men. YOU are responsible for YOUR cycle.

·         *Women, generally, do not need to worry about post-cycle therapy (PCT) like guys do*. (This changes if your cycles are much more aggressive, longer and more of them. If you are at this level, you probably don???t need to be reading this.) Women can generally just end a cycle. There is no need to taper. The compound will clear at the rate specified by its half-life.

·         *Think in the long term - don't cycle just "for my next show"* - just like a bulker or cutter diet - it has a place in the ongoing cycle of change that happens over time. You can't maintain the state of being "on" so you have to also come off, expect to lose a little of what you gained, but you will have made a change to your over all body composition.

·         *Watch your diet* - if you are going to bother putting this stuff in your body, you should respect your body enough to not think you can get away w/ eating shit - generally unless you are already lean & eating a good diet already targeted to what you are trying to do, any AAS will get you 'big' in terms of 'thick', 'bigger' etc. IF the diet is tight, then you will also get the leaned out effect that everyone wants - but sloppy diet will get you more big than lean.

·         *Time off = Time on*. The general rule of thumb is to allow at least as long as your cycle, to clear your system and let your body re-establish its own homeostasis.  People tend to want to ???try more??? but it is important to remember that there are impacts to your body not immediately apparent, that you need to pay attention to, e.g. kidneys, liver, blood pressure, etc.  If you want to get more aggressive with your cycles, plan way ahead and get regular blood work done to monitor things after each cycle completes and clears.

·         *AAS and Birth Control do not interact.*However the effects they each promote are opposing ??? birth control works to regulate estrogen (including estrogen-pattern bodyfat depositing) while AAS promotes lean muscle mass. 

·         *AAS can promote yeast infections / vaginosis.*Any AAS or sex hormone manipulator (including AIs) can promote yeast infections. It is always recommended to supplement with acidophilus to help prevent these.


*AAS and Birth Control*
*
*
One of the most common questions asked is about AAS and Birth Control. Women typically experience an interruption of their menstrual cycle while on any sex hormone-manipulating cycle (AAS or ???anti-estrogen???). This does NOT mean that you cannot get pregnant. Despite the lack of flow, other typical menstrual sides can be present when ???that time of the month??? is expected ??? including bloating, breast sensitivity, moodiness, etc. 

There is very little to nothing published on the topic of the interaction of birth control and anabolic androgenic steroids so it is hard to say how they truly interact. For the usual purpose of women using steroids, to cut, it is more than that the effects of birth control and steroids promote opposing results, so the end result is less than completely optimal effects of either. Birth control???s purpose is to regulate estrogen levels. For some this may mean controlling higher levels during a period, or for others this might mean promoting more if they experience irregular periods. This also includes the usual water retention and estrogen-pattern fat depositing around the stomach, hips and thighs areas. While a steroid is trying to promote lean muscle mass, and in some cases, even a ???fat burning??? effect. Even while the steroid may interrupted the menstrual flow, the birth control will still support prevention of pregnancy. 

If a cycle is used for off-season mass-building, the need for staying lean is less of an issue. However for competition cutting, it can be an issue. The trade-off is to continue using birth control, and possibly not get the full effect of the cutting in the stomach / hips / thighs area but still getting the pregnancy prevention, or dropping the birth control, using a back-up birth control method (e.g. condoms) and have less of an impact from the estrogen-pattern fat depositing. Another option for many older competitors is an intra-uterine device (IUD). The copper IUD is completely non-hormonal, or another option such as Mirena, has a low-dose of slow-release progesterone to help address bleeding which can be an issue with the copper IUD. IUDs must be inserted by your OB/GYN and stay in place for up to five years. For this reason, this is only recommended for older women or those who do not intend to have any more children. This is something you need to discuss with your OB/GYN. The cost tends to run around $600 and may or may not be covered by your health insurance.

Another concern that women often with steroid use is recovery of the menstrual cycle. Noting I have yet to see a published study on this, the following paragraphs come with a caveat that this is from anecdotal and observational information and suggested as practical guidance and not a medical verity. If you have lost your period for an unusually long time and are concerned, always consult your OB/GYN. 

The menstrual tends to be sensitive to changes in its environment ??? ranging from stress, to increased physical activity, sudden weight or bodyfat drop, introduction of steroids, or an estrogen manipulator such as a new birth control dose or use of an anti-estrogen. It will tend to turn off flow (and in the extreme, amenorrhea) or have breakthrough bleeding or sporadic periods while it deals with the change in its environment. When things have returned to a state of homeostasis, things will generally return to normal, including the usual monthly flow and the usual side effects of estrogen-pattern bodyfat depositing, water retention, cramps, etc. 

To gauge roughly how long it should take for an interrupted menstrual cycle to return, look first at the compound you are using and its detection time. This is far end of the duration the compound is present in your system. It can be up to this long, or to a point where the concentration of the compound has dropped to where the rest of the body is comfortable and ready to turn things back on. And then, keeping in mind that the menstrual cycle works on a 28-day schedule, it will generally want a full month of a stable environment before it may start up again. 

If you have concern, always consult your OB/GYN. There are prescriptions that are available to help reintroduce a period.

A last comment is about steroids and pregnancy. Again there are no medical studies available, but general guidance is to allow a good six months after a cycle to clear before attempting to get pregnant. Be sure to work closely with your personal physician if you plan to get pregnant and ensure that all of your basic bloodwork, and everything else is in order. The concern is that the presence of steroid compounds in the female system while a fetus is growing, can affect the sex hormones of the fetus, producing androgenic fetal abnormalities. Some of this mentioned here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid, but all in all, you would want to ensure a steroid-free environment for your child. There are many women who have cycled, who then stopped, cleared out and have had healthy children with no problem. Steroid use will not leave you infertile.
 If the father is using steroids when the mother gets pregnant, there is no effect on the fetus itself. The concern for men using steroids is more related to the steroid-driven suppression of natural testosterone production, and in the extreme, infertility. Again, that said, there are many men who have conceived while on cycle with no issue.


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## Arnold (Nov 18, 2011)

very nice!


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## acemon (Nov 18, 2011)

Wow. Excellent writing. Great view. I will use this to explain things to my old lady. Who has been interested in something like this.

Thanks!


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## heavyiron (Nov 18, 2011)

Good work Sassy!


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## sassy69 (Nov 18, 2011)

acemon said:


> Wow. Excellent writing. Great view. I will use this to explain things to my old lady. Who has been interested in something like this.
> 
> Thanks!



May I also recommend you don't refer to her as "my old lady" to her face LOL!


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## acemon (Nov 18, 2011)

Ouch. Since she younger than me I think she takes in stride. But you are probably right. My bad. My lovely lady...substitute accordingly. 

But the reason I am replying is that your documentation is a little incomplete. The section on dosing clen with keto you never finished the part on keto dosages...
With regard to cycling clenbuterol, I suppose this falls under bro-telligence. Following are two common cycles:
*· **2 weeks ‘on’ / 2 weeks ‘off’ for 8-12 weeks*
[FONT=&quot]*o *[/FONT]Starting at 20 mcg, increasing by 20 mcg units as you can handle, until what you can handle or a maximum of100 mcg per day, and then stay at that amount for the duration of the two weeks. Then stop and go off for 2 weeks, substituting your favorite OTC thermo, and then repeating the 2 weeks ‘on’, again starting at 20 mcg.
*· **Continued ‘on’ for 8-12 weeks, include ketotifen*
[FONT=&quot]*o *[/FONT]Starting at 20 mcg for a week, increase by 20 mcg per week until what you can handle or a maximum of100 mcg per day, and then stay at that amount for the duration of <--

Thanks!!
I am ordering it now for her via research chem sites. Boy it has been a little chore but she's worth it.
Thanks,

-Acemon


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## OMEGAx (Nov 18, 2011)

Very Excite!


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## sassy69 (Nov 18, 2011)

acemon said:


> Ouch. Since she younger than me I think she takes in stride. But you are probably right. My bad. My lovely lady...substitute accordingly.
> 
> But the reason I am replying is that your documentation is a little incomplete. The section on dosing clen with keto you never finished the part on keto dosages...
> With regard to cycling clenbuterol, I suppose this falls under bro-telligence. Following are two common cycles:
> ...



Thx for the feedback. I guess please understand that its hard to cover EVERY aspect of every friggen cycle possible in one post. You can certainly google Ketotifen dosing w/ clen. There is A LOT you can google. Or just very simply use the SEARCH feature on IMF. Clen cycling is not unique to women.


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## D-Lats (Nov 19, 2011)

Great post.


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## acemon (Nov 19, 2011)

Thanks. What a great article. I will research this with her


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## Ravager (Nov 19, 2011)

Any opinions on Halo Extreme for woman use?


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## sassy69 (Nov 20, 2011)

Ravager said:


> Any opinions on Halo Extreme for woman use?



Maybe Prince or one of the IMF reps can speak to this. My stuff is on the real thing & not the OTC products. The world of prohormones is something different and seems to change on a much shorter time frame the actual AAS because of the FDA and whatever marketing pushes.


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## TGB1987 (Nov 20, 2011)

Very important information.  I was actually just looking for info on Women and Anabolics.  THanks!


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## Wildfyre14 (Nov 22, 2011)

Great information and great read! Thanks!!!!!1


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## Killermonkey (Nov 22, 2011)

Awesome post, thanks sass!


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## Killermonkey (Nov 22, 2011)

And a special thanks to sass and heavy for helping me earlier in the other thread!


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## mh48500 (Apr 12, 2012)

Excellent informative post! My wife is 3 1/2 weeks into a test prop cycle and before she made her decision to start we scoured the net for info. Like it is mentioned in the article there is not a ton out there concerning woman. Most info is male based and it does not seem like a lot of woman actually want to discuss it. The few that spoke with me were awesome because it was from a womans point of view and fact based. 

Ive debated posting a log on here cycle but she doesnt seem to want to. The results have been fantastic and the sides very minimal, for her.


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## THEWIZARDOFKOZ (Apr 22, 2012)

thanks for the post. I am currently lookin gfor some otc products for the wife.


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## Pacha (May 23, 2012)

Great write up & I do agree with a lot you have shared. The best cycle I have seen work for my wife is definitely:

Clen (but she takes as minimal as possible...works like gold for her)
Winstrol tabs (As a chemist, still surprises me how well this works for her)
youthH2O (OTC)
Alpha Lipoic Acid (OTC)...In my opinion one of the most underrated supplements period. This isn't Metformin, but she gets same type results plus other benefits. Really great stuff. 
Problem with Winstrol is the DHT effects. Long term awful for the skin and my wife is all about keeping her skin youthful, which she has done a PHENOMENAL job. 

Her secret is truly keeping it simple. She doesn't out think herself and make it to complicated. Where she makes it complicated is she is a calorie counter, but obviously does it in her head. Not obsessed. Keeps cardio consistent but not to exhaustion to burn out down the road and get discouraged. She's been a fitness personal trainer for four years now and with her clients she keeps even the exercise movements basic.


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## Hate4TheWeak (Jul 18, 2012)

Damn good read!!


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## peds9 (Aug 14, 2012)

That's a great piece of writing, i don't think there's enough information about steroid use for females, i'm going to put that article on my site and would love female users to contribute to our survey at peds9.co.uk
We've already had lots of contributions from ironmagazine forum members, so thanks a lot everyone.


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## Kuromiss (Sep 24, 2012)

Fantastic write up. Its great to have all that info in one place, I know when i started my first cycles 9 years ago female anabolic info wasnt overly abundant.


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## sassy69 (Oct 2, 2012)

Kuromiss said:


> Fantastic write up. Its great to have all that info in one place, I know when i started my first cycles 9 years ago* female anabolic info wasnt overly abundan*t.



I don't think that has changed much...


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## Kuromiss (Oct 5, 2012)

sassy69 said:


> I don't think that has changed much...



True in comparison to the information for males I dont even bothering thinking that will ever change. But even this particular write up is a great compact source for some basic knowledge on female AAS.  Thanks for taking the time to post it.


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## bjg (Oct 5, 2012)

you guys must be out of your minds to give your wives AAS...!!! what happened to good old normal dieting and working your ass off?????


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## sassy69 (Oct 12, 2012)

bjg said:


> you guys must be out of your minds to give your wives AAS...!!! what happened to good old normal dieting and working your ass off?????



Nobody should give anyone AAS. Any person who is remotely interested should do their own research first and be responsible for an intelligent decision to cycle or not. And especially guys doing it for wife/gf/SO. Different hormone profile completely.  Just because its there doesn't mean its appropriate to use. And for God's sake, 'normal dieting and working your ass off' is the foundation that MUST be in place and functioning before you even think about looking into the "Dark Side".


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## Valkyrie (Nov 27, 2012)

I think 99% of women can achieve their goals with hard work, diet, anavar, primo and GH.  There is more to play around with for the very experienced but really those compounds are enough for almost all females.


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## World-Pharma.org (Nov 27, 2012)

great work!


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## Jaydaw (Jul 11, 2013)

I would like to comment on the use of Mirena that you mentioned.  I strongly caution women to research it prior to using.  I had it for one year and it royally messed me up.  It put a lot of weight on me, joint pain, messed up my menstrual cycle.  I've had it out for 3 months and still can't seem to drop the weight, the joint pain is better.  There are a lot if women that have had problems with it.


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## louiespagouie (Jan 18, 2014)

Thanks great post lots of info to look over with her


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## sassy69 (Feb 1, 2014)

Jaydaw said:


> I would like to comment on the use of Mirena that you mentioned.  I strongly caution women to research it prior to using.  I had it for one year and it royally messed me up.  It put a lot of weight on me, joint pain, messed up my menstrual cycle.  I've had it out for 3 months and still can't seem to drop the weight, the joint pain is better.  There are a lot if women that have had problems with it.



Traditional IUDs are a non-hormonal copper wire. However there had been a lot of issue w/ heavy bleeding as a result, so very, very low hormonal options such as Mirena were created. Mirena only has a very low dose, slow-release Progesterone component to address the bleeding. I've personally had one, but also have no history of issues w/ BC - i have always used very low-dose E/P options: originally Trilevelin / Triphasal BC (dating way back to the 80s) - used that for many years but moved to Nuvaring for something different, but still very low hormone dose, and most recently Mirena - all w/ zero issue. That said, we know that woman vary GREATLY in their hormone levels and response to BC. It is absolutely a critical thing to work w/ your ob-gyn on. Not everything is going to work off the bat. At one point I had switched OB/GYNs and for some reason I guess she didn't hear clearly what I was using and recommended a different one that was slightly different hormone dosing and it was pure misery. It took a couple months to work thru it but actually ended up going back to the original brand I was using. 

From an AAS standpoint, if you have chosen to follow the route to the dark side and are looking at it as a committed part of your lifestyle, I would recommend exploring a non-hormonal or extremely low hormone dose BC option. (I.e. it is very hard to alter your current BC for a "I want to give this a try" of a couple months of a cycle - if you want to make this change, look at how you might want to adjust your BC options. Its not soemthing to be scared of or rocket science, but it is a slow process when you are looking at impacts to your hormone profile and how that fits into the monthly impact to your life and your lifestyle. There are no quicky decisions or changes and you sometimes have to be patient w/ the finding how your body responds and finding the best combination of everything  you are looking at adding to forces on your natural hormone profile.


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## SheriV (Feb 1, 2014)

another thing you can look into, and this is extreme but ... uterine ablation. you would absolutely have to be done having children though

I had a copper iud and it was rough at first with bleeding and was always a bit heavier but eventually smoothed out. first 6 months is the most difficult.
that said I got pregnant with my fourth child with one..lolol


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## Zalachenko777 (Jan 7, 2015)

wow that was a good read! thanks!


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## SJDM92109 (Oct 29, 2016)

super good read! there's def not enough out there on women and supplement use. hearing a lot of buzz around SARMS too-- any energy around that?? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sassy69 (Jan 13, 2017)

SJDM92109 said:


> super good read! there's def not enough out there on women and supplement use. hearing a lot of buzz around SARMS too-- any energy around that??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I don't really know too much about SARMs - they are "newer" (relatively speaking) and there's still only sporadic female use experience. Maybe I'll revisit this and see if I can compile enough info to add a section to this article.


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## Arnold (Jan 13, 2017)

SJDM92109 said:


> super good read! there's def not enough out there on women and supplement use. hearing a lot of buzz around SARMS too-- any energy around that??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



SARMS have been around for several years now, we were the first company (IronMag Labs) to use a SARM in a supplement which was Osta Rx, now discontinued.

I can help you with SARMS or other research chems, what is your goal?


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## MCO (Jul 17, 2017)

I know its been a long time, but holy crap awesome write up, just what my wife needs a better point of view on this subject. Thanks


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