# regarding barbell rows, always see 2 forms done by different body types



## Johnnny (Sep 29, 2004)

I always see the big huge probably enhanced body builders at my gym & the 2 nationally ranked power lifters one of them being the 2003 World's Strongest man that we see on tv always doing their barbell rows for their lats at an almost upright position with just a slight bend & arch in the back & knees somewhat bent.

Then I see ppl usually much smaller doing their barbell rows completely bent over, back arched, & knees bent bringing the weight up.

I do both forms as I change it every few weeks.

But it seems to me from what I've seen that the big guys always use the first barbell row form I mentioned above, even in Dorian yates's Blood n' Gut's video which I have he does his rows in this manner.

What do you think is best?

I think both forms work best for a certain amount of weeks at a time.


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## CowPimp (Sep 29, 2004)

Continue doing them both.  The bent row with a more upright posture has been coined a Yates row.  I usually do Yates rows because it allows me to throw around bigger weights, but that is just personal preference.


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## Johnnny (Sep 29, 2004)

CowPimp



> Continue doing them both.  The bent row with a more upright posture has
> been coined a Yates row.  I usually do Yates rows because it allows me
> to throw around bigger weights, but that is just personal preference.



I agree I do both, so in other words both forms are effective?


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## solid10 (Sep 29, 2004)

The first form seems more comfortable for me.


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## soxmuscle (Sep 29, 2004)

I do the first style you mentioned, and when I used to do it the other way, guys at my gym would always be telling to stand more upwards.

It's stuck, although I dont think either way is "better" than the other.


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## Johnnny (Sep 29, 2004)

solid10



> The first form seems more comfortable for me.



I've noticed that as well.

soxmuscle



> I do the first style you mentioned, and when I used to do it the other way, guys at my gym would always be telling to stand more upwards.
> 
> It's stuck, although I dont think either way is "better" than the other.



Well steroids or not that's the type of form the big boys seem to use & all I can say is they have thick, wide backs, even natural training ppl who use this form seem to develop larger backs than the 2nd form I mention.

Thanks for the input.

What about Firestorm, DiMaggio, Metal V Player, &Gopro? 

What are your outlooks on this subject?


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## gr81 (Sep 29, 2004)

> barbell rows for their lats at an almost upright position with just a slight bend & arch in the back & knees somewhat bent.



performing them this way is not an optimal way to recruit your lats into the movement now is it? it becomes more of an upward shoulder row this way, I don't care who you know that does it this way or how famous they are. Think about it, its simple physics


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## Yanick (Sep 29, 2004)

gr81 said:
			
		

> performing them this way is not an optimal way to recruit your lats into the movement now is it? it becomes more of an upward shoulder row this way, I don't care who you know that does it this way or how famous they are. Think about it, its simple physics



I gotta agree with this, reason you're throwing around more weight and it feels more comfortable (easier?) is because your shortening your ROM and staying more upright is easier to stabilize.


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## Mortality (Sep 29, 2004)

the first method works your upper/middle back and traps more instead of your lats and it has a smaller ROM(thus allowing you to use more weight), if you do it completely upright then it's basically a barbell shrug.

 if you use a shit loads of weight then it's really hard to completely bend over because of the amount pressure on your lower back. did you also notice that the people who use the first method also tend to lift more weight??


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## Robboe (Sep 30, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Continue doing them both.  The bent row with a more upright posture has been coined a Yates row.  I usually do Yates rows because it allows me to throw around bigger weights, but that is just personal preference.



The "official" Yates row uses a supsinated grip. The pronated grip row is just a BB row with a different angle.


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## Johnnny (Sep 30, 2004)

gr81



> performing them this way is not an optimal way to recruit your lats into the movement now is it? it becomes more of an upward shoulder row this way, I don't care who you know that does it this way or how famous they are. Think about it, its simple physics



Than why do all the big boys steroids or not who use this form for barbell rows have big, wide thick backs? Even non steroid users develop really big backs from this form.

Mortality



> the first method works your upper/middle back and traps more instead of your lats and it has a smaller ROM(thus allowing you to use more weight), if you do it completely upright then it's basically a barbell shrug.
> 
> if you use a shit loads of weight then it's really hard to completely bend over because of the amount pressure on your lower back. did you also notice that the people who use the first method also tend to lift more weight??



This is true as with the first form I use about 245lbs for 6-8 reps while I can only do 205lbs completely bent over for 4-6 reps.

The_Chicken_Daddy



> The "official" Yates row uses a supsinated grip. The pronated grip row is just a BB row with a different angle.



How would you describe this grip?


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## CowPimp (Sep 30, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Than why do all the big boys steroids or not who use this form for barbell rows have big, wide thick backs? Even non steroid users develop really big backs from this form.



Because one movement doesn't define the size or strength of a person's back.  Who says all people with large and strong backs use the more upright stance anyway?  This is hardly a valid statistic.


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## Johnnny (Sep 30, 2004)

CowPimp



> Because one movement doesn't define the size or strength of a person's back.  Who says all people with large and strong backs use the more
> upright stance anyway?  This is hardly a valid statistic.



Well in every gym I've been to with large power lifters & bodybuilders & all the workout videos I've seen with huge men or big football player workout videos, they all use the somewhat upright form & they have huge backs.

Including Dorian Yates & look at his back with the help of GH & other anabolics, but he still had a great back even when he was only 190-200lbs.


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## P-funk (Sep 30, 2004)

Yanick said:
			
		

> I gotta agree with this, reason you're throwing around more weight and it feels more comfortable (easier?) is because your shortening your ROM and staying more upright is easier to stabilize.




I agree with yan and gr81 on this.  it is almost more like a shrug when you are that upright.  I stopped doing bent over barbell rows awhile ago though.  to much pressure on the lower back IMO.


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 30, 2004)

I do mine much differently I think. I use my bench width grip, arch the hell out of my back, pull back my shoulders and basically do my bench motion in reverse, pulling the bar to my sternum/stomach and letting it descend higher up like a bench lockout placement.

If that makes any sense.


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## CowPimp (Sep 30, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> CowPimp
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe it's because more people, in general, do a Yates-like row because of the comfort factor.  I bet if most of the large people you see do that type of row, then most of the smaller people you see do the same kind of row.  I highly doubt that every person you see with a well developed back do Yates rows while everyone with a less developed back does a standard bent row.


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## gr81 (Sep 30, 2004)

> Than why do all the big boys steroids or not who use this form for barbell rows have big, wide thick backs? Even non steroid users develop really big backs from this form.



there are so many flaws with your logic, if thats what you wanna call it, I don't even know where to start. Thats like sayin, hey I saw a few big guys eating their doodie and their big, so I better start eating my doodie.. Like I said, its simple physics, it doesn't matter who does what, look at the two movements and the planes they are traveling on, one will be more of a lat involving movement, and one will not. I am not arguing whether one is right or wrong, but it say that all big guys do it one way an dtherefore they are huge as a result, where as all the small guys do it another and therefore thats why they are small, there really is no cause and effect in there. its simple physics man


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## Duncans Donuts (Sep 30, 2004)

Gr81, how do you think weighted pullups compare to bent rows in terms of lat recruitment?


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## gr81 (Sep 30, 2004)

btw the trends in weight lifting in general are not always subject to observational cause and effect, like Johnnny is doing. it would not be accurate to just look and someone and what they are doing at that exact moment and assume or jump to conclusions as such. Well that big guy over there isn't working very hard, but he's big, so if I don't work very hard then I will get that big.. its too simplistic. You shoudl really think about taking some sort of intro to logic and reasoning class johnnny, all jokes aside. I think you would benefit from it man.


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## gr81 (Sep 30, 2004)

> Gr81, how do you think weighted pullups compare to bent rows in terms of lat recruitment?



two different planes you are working on, and you are prob gonna be able to use more weight on the rows, but I think they are both great movements. Pullups are so key IMO to overall lat development and they are so versatile with all the different grips you can use. I am not sure what you mean by how do they compare, I like both movements and think for a BB both need to be instilled in a training program at some time or another. If I had to pick one that is maybe better for recruitment I would go pullups personally.. what do you think


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## Duncans Donuts (Sep 30, 2004)

I'm not sure what I think bro.  I used to do bent rows but there are so many different forms that I was honestly confused on how to best do them.  I switched to weighted pullups (again I do 1-2 exercises per body part) and have been progressing really well - wasn't sure if I should try the bent rows again or keep doing these or maybe combine them both.

What position do you like best for bent rows?


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## madden player (Sep 30, 2004)

I like a more upright stance when doing barbell and one arm rows.  I find I get a better stretch in my lats at the bottum and a more intense contraction in my lats at the top, plus it just feels more comfortable and lower back friendly to me.

IMO you have to have a slightly upright stance and use a little bit of movement to create some momentum when doing 'heavy' barbell rows..I just can't do heavy barbell rows any other way, the weight gets stuck at the bottum of the movement.


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 30, 2004)

You should do both. They will complement each other greatly. If you do one, then another, you'll get the "DB vs BB Bench" problem.

For example, the guy who always does BB bench and tries to do DB Press and can't move any weight. Then there's the guy who does well on DB press but can't bench a BB very well. If they could find a balance, they would complement each other and both would get stronger.

If I worded that right.


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## Robboe (Sep 30, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> The_Chicken_Daddy
> How would you describe this grip?



supsinated = underhand grip.
pronated   = overhand   grip.


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## gr81 (Sep 30, 2004)

> What position do you like best for bent rows?



I like a more parellell to the floor with my lowerback arched and shoulders tight position, kindof like SNF was saying. I feel it hits my back my better than an upright positions, where I feel like I am cheating to use more weight. I try to keep it a lat movement personally.


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## Duncans Donuts (Sep 30, 2004)

Underhand grip is the better choice, I'd presume.


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## pmech (Sep 30, 2004)

I am the same with this. I tend to lock into position with a more bent over position. I also find to off set some of the stress on the lower back if you move your arse back a few inches so that the bar travels in a more centered line from your feet to your upper gut U can almost eliminate most of the stress on your back.


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## gr81 (Sep 30, 2004)

> Underhand grip is the better choice, I'd presume.



not necessarily, I mix it up. honestly this isn't a movement that I utilize much anymore that I am not BB, I try to mimik the plane that a bench is done for my lat movements, but pre westside I used it all the time. The thinkg with underhanded grip that I found was that its harder to keep you elbows out which brings alot of bi's in the row, but thats not a bad thing. I was stronger underhanded. I like em both. I think you shouyld defn still do pullups along with rows, they are not really similar enough to be interchangable I think. also I agree with pm here, thats about what I do


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## Mudge (Sep 30, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Then I see ppl usually much smaller doing their barbell rows completely bent over, back arched, & knees bent bringing the weight up.



That is oooooold school, I prefer the Dorian way, HANDS DOWN. 70º

If I were strapless I'd still be double under (supinated), right now I am pronated double overhand, with straps. I "cant" use chalk at my gym.


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## CowPimp (Sep 30, 2004)

Am I the only one who thinks Johnnny is just pulling this observation out of his anyway?  I feel like he made this thread so that in the end people would unanimously agree that a more upright position is better for developing one's back.  He spouted some phoney observations, or totally generalized an isolated incident.  If I am wrong, I apologize.  However, based on past postings, that is what I feel is happening here.


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## pumpchaser (Sep 30, 2004)

My conclusion jives with that espoused by Dave Draper at a very recent seminar, in which he specifically discussed fully bent over positioning, to eliminate any lower back involvement/strain, while shifting the area of emphasis. The bar is then lifted to the middle of the chest, in much the same way that the best chins are done to a mid-point of the chest vs. the more easily done but less effective standard chin to the neck. A subtle but effective difference that isolates the desired muscle much better, and for which ego and higher weights must be sacrificed in the interest of effectiveness. Just as with any exercise, subtle nuances can make a huge difference.

Huge guys doing the exercise incorrectly is inconclusive-the question is what is the most optimal exercise vs. what is done that hits the lats, but in less than optimal fashion. IMO, if you want to stand up, do T-bars with close or wide grip, this is great and will create less back stress.


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## gr81 (Sep 30, 2004)

^^well that couldn't be.. enough of your lies!! ha ha j/k.. of course he is pulling shit out of his ass. anything he ever says seems to be based off an observation of his congregation of pro BB and powerlifters that all happen to train at his gym, didn't you know


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## pumpchaser (Sep 30, 2004)

Wha?


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## gr81 (Sep 30, 2004)

naw man, we posted at the same time, it wasn't directed at you. I was referring to johnnny who started this thread. after reading your post thou you can go fucc yourself too. there was no need for your post, I have never even talked to you before. why would I just start insulting you?


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## pumpchaser (Sep 30, 2004)

No problemo, some of the dudes on this site are like rabid attack dogs.


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## gr81 (Sep 30, 2004)

I can second that.. its all good. you make a good point btw


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## CowPimp (Sep 30, 2004)

pumpchaser said:
			
		

> My conclusion jives with that espoused by Dave Draper at a very recent seminar, in which he specifically discussed fully bent over positioning, to eliminate any lower back involvement/strain, while shifting the area of emphasis. The bar is then lifted to the middle of the chest, in much the same way that the best chins are done to a mid-point of the chest vs. the more easily done but less effective standard chin to the neck.



Lifting the bar towards the middle of your chest puts much more stress on the posterior deltoid muscles and takes away from the stimulation of one's lats.  I do this type of row for my shoulders, and it is very effective.  However, bringing the bar more towards the upper abdominals certainly uses more lat strength.


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## P-funk (Oct 1, 2004)

pumpchaser said:
			
		

> My conclusion jives with that espoused by Dave Draper at a very recent seminar, in which he specifically discussed fully bent over positioning, to eliminate any lower back involvement/strain, while shifting the area of emphasis. The bar is then lifted to the middle of the chest, in much the same way that the best chins are done to a mid-point of the chest vs. the more easily done but less effective standard chin to the neck. A subtle but effective difference that isolates the desired muscle much better, and for which ego and higher weights must be sacrificed in the interest of effectiveness. Just as with any exercise, subtle nuances can make a huge difference.
> 
> Huge guys doing the exercise incorrectly is inconclusive-the question is what is the most optimal exercise vs. what is done that hits the lats, but in less than optimal fashion. IMO, if you want to stand up, do T-bars with close or wide grip, this is great and will create less back stress.




That was the seminar last week at Mid-City gym was it?


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## Tha Don (Oct 1, 2004)

I do it the same way ARNIE dose, and also the way which recruits more work from the lats rather than using the traps/shoulders

that is a BENT-OVER ROW, bending over (somewhere between 60 and 80 degrees), back straight, head up, legs and core tensed, and rowing using a full ROM into the upper abs/midsection (which puts a lot less stress on the lower back than rowing to the chest and also hits the lats much better)

this is a staple exercise of mine in adding mass to the back, and you can deff. feel it the next couple of days

so if ya wanna copy the famous guys copy the oak himself and row properly!


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## pumpchaser (Oct 1, 2004)

I think that where the bar's pulled to varies, but the overall theme that makes sense is to be fully bent over to get the lats more involved and to avoid back stress.


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## Mudge (Oct 1, 2004)

pumpchaser said:
			
		

> in which he specifically discussed fully bent over positioning, to eliminate any lower back involvement/strain



Are you saying that bending over fully removes the lower back from the movement?


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## pumpchaser (Oct 1, 2004)

For me and for most i think, yes. Other similar effects are dumbell rows while using the other hand to take pressure off the back, and t-bar bows, which don't put the same stress on the lower back. One of the variations i like best for rows is to lie face down on a flat bench and do barbell rows, completely removing the lower back strain and further isolating the lats.


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## racoon02 (Oct 1, 2004)

Wait, whats the Yates row look like? Anyone post a pic of it? Ive only seen rows done the bent over way...


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## Mudge (Oct 1, 2004)

You bend over, just not as much.


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## pmech (Oct 1, 2004)

Mudge post a link to your video. I think that is a very good example of it. I dont do them that way, but it is a very good example.


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## Mudge (Oct 1, 2004)

314kB Monstar http://www.webbtrain.us/videos/Bentover_Rows_385x3.WMV
5.27MB http://www.webbtrain.us/videos/Mudge_Back.wmv

Right click and save


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## racoon02 (Oct 1, 2004)

Ah Ive been doing those! I just call them "The back things on the smith machine" 



 

I will now call them by the proper name  

and the lighting of that room does not do your tan justice mudge


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## madden player (Oct 1, 2004)

Impressive vids Mudge ..I am not queer eye for the straight guy or anything close to that, but lets get rid of them black socks.


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## camarosuper6 (Oct 1, 2004)

I cant stand doing the fully bent over rows with barbell. I hate arching my back, it always feels dangerous.


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## pumpchaser (Oct 1, 2004)

Agreed; i'd rather do T-bar rows, leverage rowing or barbell rows while facing down on a bench, all much better isolation and minimal lower back risk.


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## Johnnny (Oct 1, 2004)

CamaroSuper6



> I cant stand doing the fully bent over rows with barbell. I hate
> arching my back, it always feels dangerous.



I agree, but I still do both forms. The 2nd form I mention I do with an E-Zbar
as I use a reverse grip & it's much easier on your wrists, & you can bring the bar up much closer to your upper body.

Pumpchaser



> Agreed; i'd rather do T-bar rows, leverage rowing or barbell rows while facing down on a bench, all much better isolation and minimal lower back risk.



T-Bar rows, but old school are my favorites, with a 45lb bar lined up against the wall & stacking the bar with 25lb weights as with the 45lbers you can't bring the bar up higher as the big weights get in the way & I use a wide grip handle & throw on about 7-9 25lb weights on the edge of the bar & then gradually lower the weight each set to get the full burn.


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## Mudge (Oct 1, 2004)

madden player said:
			
		

> Impressive vids Mudge ..I am not queer eye for the straight guy or anything close to that, but lets get rid of them black socks.



Yeah, and it made me look yet even whiter as well. Dark clothes did not work with indoor shooting.


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## M.J.H. (Oct 2, 2004)

For me personally Yates style is hands down more effective than the classic style of bentover rows. When I say Yates style I mean double over- or underhand grip, pulling the bar to your waist, standing a bit more upright. The classic style being more with your body parallel to the floor using a bit wider grip, pulling the bar to your lower chest/sternum area.


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## Mudge (Oct 3, 2004)

Agreed, and yes I pull it into my gut.


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## Johnnny (Oct 3, 2004)

Monstar

As I've said the majority of the ppl whether they're on steroids or not who use that 1st form I mentioned or the Yate's form generally tend to have larger, wider, & thicker backs than ppl who strictly use the completely bent over rowing form.

But as I said I'm doing both forms but I do Yate's form 1st & put as much weight on as possible & still limit cheating & no straps.

I guess it's normal to not be able to do as much weight as with Yate's form.

But does anyone else feel more stress on their lower back with completely bent over rows with the arch in your back & knees bent? I do.

But some ppl tell me they feel more stress with Yate's form of rows so I guess it really is true that every individual body is different.


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## pumpchaser (Oct 3, 2004)

Better not to use any particular bodybuilder as an example, because their preference doesn't necessarily mean that they're doing this the most effective way vs. what they're used to, in many cases-with their genetics they'll often grow as long as they're doing a decent exercise. Whether someone's got a wide back or not has more to do with genetics than with the type of exercise used, as long as it's generally effective. Everyone's different, so experiment for yourself. 

However, if you're not entirely bent over there's no doubt that it's putting more stress on the lower back. Some can do this without getting injured or aggitated. I'd also say that fully bent over isolates the lats better.


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## firestorm (Oct 3, 2004)

gr81 said:
			
		

> performing them this way is not an optimal way to recruit your lats into the movement now is it? it becomes more of an upward shoulder row this way, I don't care who you know that does it this way or how famous they are. Think about it, its simple physics




I'd like to hit on this a little more.  
I have a little test for ya.  put on a light weight around 135 pounds and do 30 reps using BOTH forms.  I can guarentee that using the more bentover form will will notice a fuller range of motion for one thing as well as you're hitting a larger area of the back muscles.  Bentover rows will attack not only the lats (for thickness) but also the middle back muscles as well. The more you stand up, the less your middile back gets hit and the target area rises more to the traps and even less of the lats play a part.  It becomes a lat excercise.  
Now we can debate this over and over but you can't argue with testing my theory yourself.  If you REALLY want proof that what i'm saying is true then do this:
On Monday for example  do 6 sets of what I consider bentover rows  Keep the weight moderate so you can get good clean sets of 10-12. Make it burn.

On your next back workout do the upright version using the same format and you will see what I'm saying is FACT and not opinion.
*****************
I've done this test in the past myself and here were my personnal findings.  After performing the bentover rows (bentover), the following 2 days my lats,  mid back including Traps,and lower back muscles were sore as hell.  The following week I did the standup version and the following few days it hurt like hell to turn my head, (my traps got trashed which is a good thing if that is what your goal was).  My lats were a little sore but not to the extent as the week prior because I don't believe I encorporated as much of the lats to perform the second version.
  This was an excellent question and I'm glad it resurfaced.   I suggest taking NO ONES opinion on this topic and giving this a test.  The results will speak for themselves.
*********************
Now in regards to which is a better excercise, there is no right or wrong answer because it all depends on what you want to use that excercise for.  If your doing the more upright version one week then I'd suggest following it up with a HEAVY D/B row or Cable Row to fry the mid back and such. Also you won't need to thrash your traps that week.  A moderate shrug routine for example would finish them off.
 If you do the bentover version then you can do a lighter DB row or Cable row and probably cut a set or two but now you need to hit the shrugs hard as you normally would on their work day.


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## pumpchaser (Oct 3, 2004)

The best variations are, IMO:
-T-bar rows-less lower back strain
-Bent over rows lying on a bench, or rows while the upper body's propped up against a bench to remove back strain and to increase the isolation.
-Leverage machines that allow you to brace your stomach and chest to remove any lower back strain while isolating the lats - i used one the other day and was sore for several days, which rarely happens with bent over rows.


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## firestorm (Oct 3, 2004)

Can't argue with that post pump


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## Johnnny (Oct 3, 2004)

Firestorm

I agree with you on that long post, I find it more beneficial to do both forms of rows, I do the Yate's form first, then the more completely bent over version, & then I usually do either T-Bar rows or 1arm rows with DB's & then finish off with some sort of cable row & weighted wide grip chins are always my first exercise.


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## Mudge (Oct 3, 2004)

firestorm said:
			
		

> I can guarentee that using the more bentover form will will notice a fuller range of motion for one thing as well as you're hitting a larger area of the back muscles.



You are both letting the arms hang lower, and also in part due to that using your rotator cuffs. If I wanted an arm workout, I'd work out my arms.


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## firestorm (Oct 3, 2004)

Thats cool bro but here is how I'd change that slightly, If were considering this a "back" routine then I'd do the traditional Bentovers 1st followed by db rows   I wouldn't do both Yates and traditional bentovers on the same day unless I was also doing shoulders which.... at that point would put the Yates Bentovers over with the shoulder routine.  I wouldn't do both for back though.  Bit of overtraining along with Tbars and DB rows.  they are 4 similar excercises.  Just my opinion though.


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## firestorm (Oct 3, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> You are both letting the arms hang lower, and also in part due to that using your rotator cuffs. If I wanted an arm workout, I'd work out my arms.



Well sure Mudge your using biceps. You using them for pullups and any pulling movement anyway. The point I'm trying to make is if your looking for a  "full" back and lat excercise then your better off with bentover rows.  Regardless of the fact your using biceps more to pull, your back is still getting targeted as a "whole" much better then with the Yates.

This is like arguing,, just do leg presses and dump squats because you don't need to encorporate as many muscle groups for presses as you do for squats. and I don't want a full body excercise just a leg excercise.  It's just a silly concept.   Regardless that your being forced to use more bicep or not, you can't argue the point of my post.  The more upright you go the more emphasis is taken from the lats and placed higher and higher to the upper traps.   Yates are good for rear and upper lat development and real delts. 
Bentover rows done "properly" target the lats and back moreso as a "whole"  A  much better excercise.


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## Mudge (Oct 3, 2004)

I may give em a shot again someday, not a fan of bending over that far with huge loads though.


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## M.J.H. (Oct 3, 2004)

I agree with Mudge, as I am a huge advocate of bentover rows more upright, Yates style. Pulling to my waistline rather than to my sternum. I guess it's personal preference honestly---because I have tried bending completely over and I absolutely hate them. I feel them in my rotator cuffs and rear delts. 

I think to hit your midback more just simply throw in some t-bar rows or chest-supported type rows. Just my $.02.


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## firestorm (Oct 3, 2004)

One last note.  When I do bentovers I'm sure I'm not in Mudge's category in regards to poundages used.  I can only handle 275 or so "cleanly" for 4 to 6 reps.  When I feel my form begin to fade (moreso in my lower back; old injury), I then straighten up a bit for some partial reps.  At least in my Log book that is what I call them. You guys call them Yates deadlifts.   Point I'm trying to make is that they are partial reps and when I'm about totally fried at 4 or 5 with bentovers, I can straighten up a bit and kick out about 3 more clean reps.  (Just an observation I've noticed looking at my log book).  When I take out the lower back and change that angle I'm almost fresh again.  It's like an entirely different movement.  All the worked mid back muscles get a break and are taken out of the picture and now I'm pulling at a different angle using the same lat muscles, same shoulder muscles etc but in a totally different way.  Suddenly after 2 or 3 of those partial reps my traps are pumpen up more.  Seriously guys try this as well and you will see I'm not talking out of my ass.


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## firestorm (Oct 3, 2004)

One last thing... It is my understanding that where Yates was concerned, he did traditional bentovers for the majority of his career and only switch to the more upright method later and if my memory is correct it was due to some injury. I may be mistaken about the injury though.


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## firestorm (Oct 3, 2004)

MonStar said:
			
		

> I agree with Mudge, as I am a huge advocate of bentover rows more upright, Yates style. Pulling to my waistline rather than to my sternum. I guess it's personal preference honestly---because I have tried bending completely over and I absolutely hate them. I feel them in my rotator cuffs and rear delts.
> 
> I think to hit your midback more just simply throw in some t-bar rows or chest-supported type rows. Just my $.02.



Personnally Mon,, I like both of your alternate excercises you just mentioned so I don't see a problem with that workout AT ALL.  In fact it hits everything at different angles and I'm sure we all can agree that is a good thing.


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## Mudge (Oct 3, 2004)

I just call it a row, I know what it is in my logbook, so I dont spell it all out.

He switched grips from injury thats all I recall  who knows. I can try more angle with 225 and see how it feels, maybe around 45º.


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## firestorm (Oct 3, 2004)

I call em rows as well Mudge but I'm very Anal retentive and so I keep really strict notes so I know how to guage the next workout.  for example if my goal is 4 reps of "rows" with lets say 290 and I get 2 clean reps but I want more, I'll come up a bit and bang out as many as I can say again 2  and I'll put that on their as a side note.  Because of how I do a power routine every 3rd week I may not remember what the 2 on the side meant by then so I have to call it something so I call em a cheat rep or partial rep.  That way I'll know what if any adjustments I need to make.  

Anyway Big fella.....I was looking at your pics and you look fuqing bigger and wider then ever.  I don't want to try talking you into anything because what your doing is obviously working for you.  Your a class act guy Mudge and I have nothing but the upmost respect for you and all you contribute here and thank you.


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## camarosuper6 (Oct 3, 2004)

I love T-Bar Rows, but at my gym you have to put the bar together yourself using a barbell, a handle and some weights... and I always find my handles start slipping down the bar.


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## firestorm (Oct 3, 2004)

That is the Tbar system I have as well.  I noticed that if you put alot of weight on there it wont slip.    hehehehe   just funnen ya.  I have the same thing though. It really doesn't slip on me.


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## shawn32 (Oct 3, 2004)

When doing shrugs do you roll your shoulders or just raise them up and down? I tend to want to roll my shoulders and someone told me you can hurt your rotator cuff that way.....


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## firestorm (Oct 3, 2004)

I hope nobody rebuts this but I have to say NOOOOO do not roll your shoulders. That does nothing for you.  A pause at the top is the way to go.  If you want to hit the traps another way alternate workouts with a straight bar and dumbbells held to your sides.  That is all you need but do not roll the shoulders.


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## M.J.H. (Oct 3, 2004)

> I hope nobody rebuts this but I have to say NOOOOO do not roll your shoulders. That does nothing for you. A pause at the top is the way to go.


Agreed. Rolling your shoulders doesn't make the exercise anymore efficient.


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## shawn32 (Oct 3, 2004)

Thanx guys I will try not to roll my shoulders...Just seems like Im using more bicep movement then shoulders.


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## Mudge (Oct 3, 2004)

firestorm said:
			
		

> I'll come up a bit and bang out as many as I can say again 2  and I'll put that on their as a side note.



Same here for notes, if I do a half or 3/4 rep on a RM attempt I write it down. If I use body momentum for shrugs/rows I write it down. Generally I will remember the next week based on that note where to go for each set. Sometimes I flip through my logbooks to see where I was a year ago, or even two etc - but generally its for week to week progress (attempts anyway) 



> I don't want to try talking you into anything because what your doing is obviously working for you. Your a class act guy Mudge and I have nothing but the upmost respect for you and all you contribute here and thank you.



Thax mano, Ronnie bends over quite a bit from what I've seen so I'm not going to argue it really. I feel if anything I have some width but lack thickness (erectors are being worked on with GMs), so I am not uber convinced just yet that I'm all upper back and no width. I will try a more bent over position with 135/225 to see how it feels.


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## Mudge (Oct 3, 2004)

shawn32 said:
			
		

> Thanx guys I will try not to roll my shoulders...Just seems like Im using more bicep movement then shoulders.



You just have to do your best to avoid pulling with your arms, but it happens a little. I use a barbell, never dumbells for shrugs, just preference but also probably easier to keep the arm mostly straight. I really dont feel a thing in my biceps but I can see my arm move a bit especially on heavier sets. I dont pause at the top myself, again just preference. As long as I pull UP as hard as I can on each set for my attempted squeeze (there is no way I would touch my ears) then its a good rep.


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## firestorm (Oct 8, 2004)

For the record I CAN'T pause with heavy weight either.  I get it up and bring it back down "controlled" I'd pause if I could but I can't.  I do pause with lighter weights and like Mudge, I rarely use DB's for shrugs either and when I do, I only do one arm at a time.  I hold the DB rack with my free hand and do one side at a time. I seem to really feel them better that way.


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## Mudge (Oct 8, 2004)

Yeah for an honest pause I'd have to drop the weight a lot, and I think traps should be used to heavy weights. Look how many people do cheat shrugs and get results. If I paused at the top I'd be doing 40 reps with Sesame Street weights


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## TrojanMan60563 (Oct 8, 2004)

I like doing rows at the squat rack...I know using the squat rack for anything other then squatting is taboo, but for me it works. I like to keep it heavy enough to put tension on the muscles....but light enough that I can get good full motion reps for the first 3-6 reps. Then do more reps maybe less then perfect form. This is something I just started doing and seems to give a great pump and I think has helped my backs development.


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## TrojanMan60563 (Oct 8, 2004)

as far as shrugs go I think barbell very heavy is the way to make them grow...right now I do them with dumbbells on shoulder days for convenience...but heavy barbell is IMO the most effective to add size.


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## firestorm (Oct 8, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Yeah for an honest pause I'd have to drop the weight a lot, and I think traps should be used to heavy weights. Look how many people do cheat shrugs and get results. If I paused at the top I'd be doing 40 reps with Sesame Street weights



I agree with you Mudge.  The key is range of motion and to go heavy.


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## Johnnny (Oct 9, 2004)

Firestorm



> For the record I CAN'T pause with heavy weight either.  I get it up and bring it back down "controlled" I'd pause if I could but I can't.  I do
> pause with lighter weights and like Mudge



I am exactly the same way.


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## Mudge (Oct 9, 2004)

TrojanMan60563 said:
			
		

> I like doing rows at the squat rack...I know using the squat rack for anything other then squatting is taboo, but for me it works.



At most gyms nobody hardly uses the squat racks anyway, I use them on back day, and I even used to do my bicep curls in a walk in rack. I feel no guilt over it when every other rack in the gym is EMPTY.


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## solid10 (Oct 9, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> At most gyms nobody hardly uses the squat racks anyway, I use them on back day, and I even used to do my bicep curls in a walk in rack. I feel no guilt over it when every other rack in the gym is EMPTY.


I agree, it's funny but I can tell the difference when I do and don't do squats. I feel stronger and feel more muscle gain overall.


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## Johnnny (Oct 10, 2004)

Mudge



> At most gyms nobody hardly uses the squat racks anyway, I use them on
> back day, and I even used to do my bicep curls in a walk in rack. I feel
> no guilt over it when every other rack in the gym is EMPTY.



I use the squatting cages for back, & barbell curls but I make sure to use the muscles to bring the weight up.


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## Johnnny (Oct 14, 2004)

I did the big boy version, the first version listed here, & My back was so pumped after the first 2 sets.

I only do 12 sets for back with 3 exercises, followed by 3 sets of hypers.


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## wilwn (Oct 15, 2004)

hmmmmmm...
here's something i found from a t-mag article




"The lats are more active in vertical pulling exercises, while the rhomboids and middle trapezius muscles are more active in horizontal pulling exercises. As a general rule, the more vertical your torso is when performing back exercises, the more dominant your lats will be in the movement."




http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=278back2


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## Johnnny (Oct 18, 2004)

wilwn

That was a great link!


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## Dale Mabry (Oct 18, 2004)

When I use DBs I am completely bent over on a bench, when I use a BB, I am in a more upright position so that my knees are at a 120 degree angle or thereabouts.  I bend at the hip at 90 degrees and I row such that the bar travels parallel to my thigh and about 5 inches away from it.  This hammers my stabilizers, specifically in the shoulder.


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