# Pull ups for lat development



## b56 (Jul 4, 2010)

Can someone with knowledge of anatomy explain why wide grip pull ups are the best lat developer? Is it the stretch at the bottom? Is it the stress at the top? Is it something else/ 

I must be doing them wrong because my lats have always seemed to respond better to dumbbell rows and not respond to pull ups. 

For that matter, I can't understand how heavy rows do more for the lats than moderate weight rows. It would seems it me that the pump is more important for this muscle.


----------



## unclem (Jul 4, 2010)

pullups are very good for the width if you do them with a wide grip, but if you cant do them at least 4 and try hard to get the 5,6,7th rep you might try wide grip pulldowns to start. i cant do to many but i can do alot of weight with the pulldowns wide grip though. but my back is wide enough i need to work on my inner back.


----------



## Built (Jul 4, 2010)

No disrespect to unclem, but please avoid gripping wider than shoulder-width. Rather than placing more stress on the lat, gripping wide takes some of the stress OFF the lat and places it on the rotator cuff. 

Over, under, neutral grips are all good. Just mind that width. Close grip works a charm, you'll see this for yourself. 

To the OP, dumbbell rows can and do build one hell of a wide back!  Why would you think the pump would matter more here - because of the relative proportion of slow twitch muscle in the lats?


----------



## unclem (Jul 4, 2010)

^^^^no worries i dont go wider than shoulder width but its something i should of said thnx built, you know your shit imho.


----------



## Built (Jul 4, 2010)

Ah, good to know unclem. Glad you weren't offended.


----------



## PushAndPull (Jul 4, 2010)

I've done a ton of wide grip pull-ups as well as regular pull-ups and could never notice any difference in gains between the two. Since there is more stress placed on the rotator cuff when doing wide grip pull-ups, it logically follows that the risk of injury to your rotator cuff will be increased. Now I did wide grips pull ups for years and never had any injuries to my rotator cuff. Maybe the chance of injury to your rotator cuff is small, but where's the risk/reward trade-off for doing the exercise? So even if the chance of injury is really small, since there's no added benefit over a regular(shoulder-width) pull up it isn't logical to do them. As far as the pump goes. Pump doesn't matter, only results matter. Pull ups are a proven effective exercise that yield fantastic results.


----------



## Built (Jul 4, 2010)

PushAndPull said:


> So even if the chance of injury is really small, since there's no added benefit over a regular(shoulder-width) pull up it isn't logical to do them.


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## unclem (Jul 4, 2010)

Built said:


> Ah, good to know unclem. Glad you weren't offended.


 
 just because i have been training along time i never get offended at learning things that people that know what there talking about, such as you with dieting ect, i love to learn if i dont know please inform me i cant correct something if iam doing it wrong. i learn something new everyday built.


----------



## Phineas (Jul 5, 2010)

b56 said:


> Can someone with knowledge of anatomy explain why wide grip pull ups are the best lat developer? Is it the stretch at the bottom? Is it the stress at the top? Is it something else/
> 
> I must be doing them wrong because my lats have always seemed to respond better to dumbbell rows and not respond to pull ups.
> 
> For that matter, I can't understand how heavy rows do more for the lats than moderate weight rows. It would seems it me that the pump is more important for this muscle.



Rows and pullups are both excellent for lat development -- as well as other muscles!

Maybe your lack of growth from pullups is a form issue. Rows are much easier to perform, especially any row where your spine isn't supporting the weight, as in dumbbell bench rows. With pullups, not only are you pulling bodyweight, which is very difficult, but because you're hanging you have a lot more balancing to do and can travel in many planes without proper pulling. This is why so many people swing with their hips and use momentum. You don't necessairly have to go as slow as a slug to perform a proper pullup, but you need to stabalize your torso and focus on your contracting muscles. Focus is crucial on pullups; it will make them much smoother.

Once I started doing weighted pullups, I found I had a harder time stabalizing on bodyweight pullups. Having extra weight pull you down makes it more comfortable to pull in the opposite direction.


----------



## b56 (Jul 5, 2010)

*But why*

Thanks for all the input. But you guys are stating the obvious. You're not answering the question. We all know the pull up is superior. What is it about that the pull up that makes it superior? The best I can come up with is the stretch at the bottom.


----------



## danzik17 (Jul 5, 2010)

b56 said:


> Thanks for all the input. But you guys are stating the obvious. You're not answering the question. We all know the pull up is superior. What is it about that the pull up that makes it superior? The best I can come up with is the stretch at the bottom.



They're not necessarily superior, they're just another tool in the toolbox.  You can build a good sized back on rows and lat pulldowns too.


----------



## rockhardly (Jul 6, 2010)

The amount of muscles involved and the physical excertion required makes them superior.  

When I am done with pull-ups, I need a break, when I am done with pull-downs I need another excercise.


----------



## FMJ (Jul 6, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> The amount of muscles involved and the physical excertion required makes them superior.
> 
> When I am done with pull-ups, I need a break, when I am done with pull-downs I need another excercise.


 
Agreed. With pullups, the extra stimulation my core gets from either slightly holding my legs up or simply trying to keep them from swinging really wipes me out. You don't get that mid and lower body tension as much when sitting on a bench doing pulldowns. I think this is what makes them superior to pulldowns.


----------



## ceazur (Jul 6, 2010)

b56 said:


> Thanks for all the input. But you guys are stating the obvious. You're not answering the question. We all know the pull up is superior. What is it about that the pull up that makes it superior? The best I can come up with is the stretch at the bottom.




That's like asking what makes bud light taste so good.. Wtf does it matter! Just do it and be happy you have it as such a great option to grow.


----------



## aja44 (Jul 6, 2010)

ceazur said:


> .. Wtf does it matter!



^^^^ Well said.


----------



## stepaukas (Jul 6, 2010)

rockhardly

great post!!!!

your quote really says it all.  "The amount of muscles involved and the physical excertion required makes them superior". 

thats why if you have the space to do kipping pullups do them..those will really tax you..

if you google regular pullups vs kiping, you'll find that , like your post says, work more muscles. if i can find the link, i'll post it here. 

its a great link by great coaches saying why the kipping pullup is so good showing all the benifits from doing these..it helps your dead hangs.

do them both.. dead hangs and kipping pullups.

just wish i had a place to do them.


----------



## Phineas (Jul 6, 2010)

stepaukas said:


> rockhardly
> 
> great post!!!!
> 
> ...




HEY BUDDY!!! SO GLAD TO SEE YOU!! Nice weather here, how about over there?

Just wondering, why do you keep pushing kipping pullups on this board? I mean, they DO look like a lot of fun. Kind of like a pissed off fish caught out of the water. They should call them pissed-off-fish-pullups, actually.

Anyway, just wondering, because you usually suggest them in the context of strength and muscle development, and kipp'ers are more of plyometric, since you're using rapid muscular contraction and momentum to complete the reps. AAAANNNDDD...as I'm sure most of us know, plyometrics are intended for neurological adaptation for speed, power, agility..more for sports than it is for bodybuilding, I guess is the general idea to take away. Well, you would know, you've been around many world-class athletes, right? I don't know about the rest of the guys here but I definitely value _world-class _training advice -- ESPECIALLY when it's free on an internet forum.

However, thinking back I seem to recall that the original poster was looking not for speed, power, and agility but lat development....

hmmm.. 

hmmmmmmmm...    




b56 said:


> Can someone with knowledge of anatomy explain why wide grip *pull ups are the best lat developer*?



Mmmm, yup. Yaa he's looking for strength and muscle.

I mean, sure, kipping pullups may require no legitimate body-pulling strength, full-body control, or understanding of the mechanics of upper-body pulling....pretty much a fancy term for cheating on pullups...but damnit they look cool! And, damnit you can do more of them! 

Excuse me, I need to adjust my halo.


----------



## PushAndPull (Jul 6, 2010)

Phineas said:


> I mean, sure, kipping pullups may require no legitimate body-pulling strength, full-body control, or understanding of the mechanics of upper-body pulling....pretty much a fancy term for cheating on pullups...but damnit they look cool! And, damnit you can do more of them!



I agree and disagree with this. 
I agree kipping pull ups is a fancy term for cheating on your pull-ups. 
I disagree that they look cool.


----------



## Phineas (Jul 6, 2010)

PushAndPull said:


> I agree and disagree with this.
> I agree kipping pull ups is a fancy term for cheating on your pull-ups.
> I disagree that they look cool.



For a second you had me worried there! 

Maybe kipping can be a new term for cheating on any lift?

Joe: "Oh man Jim squatted 300 for 5 reps?"

Bill: "Yaa, but dude he was totally kipping on the last 2 reps"


----------



## ceazur (Jul 6, 2010)

Phineas said:


> HEY BUDDY!!! SO GLAD TO SEE YOU!! Nice weather here, how about over there?
> 
> Just wondering, why do you keep pushing kipping pullups on this board? I mean, they DO look like a lot of fun. Kind of like a pissed off fish caught out of the water. They should call them pissed-off-fish-pullups, actually.
> 
> ...



You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Phineas again.


----------



## FMJ (Jul 6, 2010)

Phineas said:


> For a second you had me worried there!
> 
> Maybe kipping can be a new term for cheating on any lift?
> 
> ...


 


Oh man! Phineas, that's pure gold! 
I actually was kipping on my 3rd set of Bent rows.. I was completely wasted. I would never have gotten through them if I didn't kip them!


----------



## ramboris (Jul 6, 2010)

b56 said:


> Can someone with knowledge of anatomy explain why wide grip pull ups are the best lat developer? Is it the stretch at the bottom? Is it the stress at the top? Is it something else/
> 
> I must be doing them wrong because my lats have always seemed to respond better to dumbbell rows and not respond to pull ups.
> 
> For that matter, I can't understand how heavy rows do more for the lats than moderate weight rows. It would seems it me that the pump is more important for this muscle.


Wide-grip pull ups are ineffective. Anything wider than shoulder width actually puts less and less stress on the lats. Closer grip pull-downs/pull-ups are most effective. And you were wondering why heavy rows always bring you the best results. That's because your able to use very heavy weights. The more weight an exercise allows you to use the better the exercise.


----------



## ramboris (Jul 6, 2010)

ceazur said:


> That's like asking what makes bud light taste so good.. Wtf does it matter! Just do it and be happy you have it as such a great option to grow.


lol


----------



## ramboris (Jul 6, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> The amount of muscles involved and the physical excertion required makes them superior.
> 
> When I am done with pull-ups, I need a break, when I am done with pull-downs I need another excercise.


You need another exercise because your not giving it 100%. It doesen't matter what exercise your doing if you give it all you got you will feel sick and want to sit down and take a break.


----------



## PushAndPull (Jul 6, 2010)

This fucker ramboris is totally kipping spam.


----------



## Merkaba (Jul 6, 2010)

Phineas said:


> For a second you had me worried there!
> 
> Maybe kipping can be a new term for cheating on any lift?
> 
> ...



I was about to say the same thing!  I would never tell anyone to do kipping anything!  Why not do some kipping squats?  Kipping bench?  

Of course this is heavily used in Crossfit.  We all know what Crossfit conversations turn into around here. 

"continued intensity" or the idea thereof varies with the goal.  If your goal is growth then this is not necessary.  A proper plan with decent loading and adequate intakes will succeed with less risk.  

If your goal is cutting then hell, youre just spinning wheels with too much intensity.  A minute of pullups on 1500 calories....??  Not necessary.  

Again, the latest fad, like kettlebells...with so many people not really knowing what they are even trying to accomplish. 

And yea, kill the wide grip pullups.


----------



## Merkaba (Jul 6, 2010)

PushAndPull said:


> This fucker ramboris is totally kipping spam.



Don't worry we're getting ready to put a stop to that shit!  Plus he just joined, and you see he wants you to go to his forum which he has in his status.  Shit for what, its obvious you don't know what you're talking about!


----------



## rockhardly (Jul 7, 2010)

ramboris said:


> you need another exercise because your not giving it 100%. It doesen't matter what exercise your doing if you give it all you got you will feel sick and want to sit down and take a break.



suck it bitch!!!


----------



## Phineas (Jul 7, 2010)

ramboris said:


> You need another exercise because your not giving it 100%. It doesen't matter what exercise your doing if you give it all you got you will feel sick and want to sit down and take a break.



Are you serious? This is such flawed advice it's not even funny.

Just because you may push your body through high-intensity lifting, as in sub-maximal loads, doesn't mean you have to find yourself nearly unconscious or wanting to puke. In fact, feeling sick would be more an indication of overtraining, if anything. I've heard of people feeling sick on 20-rep squat, but that's a unique exception -- as it's intended to be a form of structured overtraining (in a sense).

On maybe three occassions I felt like puking, and none of those instances were from single heavy sets but fast-paced endurance sessions; it was more from the lactic buildup and heavy lung work than muscular fatigue.


----------



## stepaukas (Jul 7, 2010)

merkaba
your quote here i have to disagree with.

"Again, the latest fad, like kettlebells...with so many people not really knowing what they are even trying to accomplish". 

fad????they have been around 200 years .. i have been using them since 1960.. as long as you have proper guidance, this training is great.
sure , you wont see them at most gyms, but they will be in any hardcore gym that has been aroung for years, and i know they are in every gymnastic gym.
all the little outside the box training ways really help the traditional ways. trouble is most people knock this type of training before they every try it.
i started with wooden dumbells and kettlebells, and slowly over the years worked up in weight. 
to each their own i guess..


----------



## ceazur (Jul 7, 2010)

stepaukas said:


> merkaba
> your quote here i have to disagree with.
> 
> "Again, the latest fad, like kettlebells...with so many people not really knowing what they are even trying to accomplish".
> ...



Since 1960? FFS old man. You should have either already accomplished perfection or died trying. Merkaba was referring to the fact that for years alot of people stopped using kettleballs as much as berfore. Now they are coming back into trend and being used more often than the past 10 years. 
Wooden dumbells? Who could curl more? You or Noah?


----------



## Phineas (Jul 7, 2010)

stepaukas said:


> merkaba
> your quote here i have to disagree with.
> 
> "Again, the latest fad, like kettlebells...with so many people not really knowing what they are even trying to accomplish".
> ...



If I may step in, I think what Merkaba was saying is that, like with all the other fitness trends, people are blindlessly incorporating kettlebells into workouts without knowledge of their proper role in training, the mechanics of the movements, or how they differ from traditional weights.

People are just told by such "experts" as crossfit instructors that kettlebells are the latest'n'greatest, and so these people go out and load up on kettlebell movements without proper instruction on form or without even researching what they're intended for. Most people don't take the time to research training and diet as it pertains to them; they just go to a gym, grab a hold of anything they're told to, and start doing exercises with no rhyme or reason. Where's the periodization? Even the most casual fitness-minded individual should have some sort of a plan, even if it is very basic, otherwise you're just going in circles.

I agree that with proper guidance kettleballs can be effective. However, the majority of gym-go'ers are misguided.


----------



## Phineas (Jul 7, 2010)

ceazur said:


> Since 1960? FFS old man. You should have either already accomplished perfection or died trying. Merkaba was referring to the fact that for years alot of people stopped using kettleballs as much as berfore. Now they are coming back into trend and being used more often than the past 10 years.
> Wooden dumbells? Who could curl more? You or Noah?



It's a matter of a potentially-useful training tool taken out of context, which winds up in the tool not doing its intended job.

It's like when people take the mish-mash principles into their training. Remember that video of the guy squatting on top of a swiss ball? Well, the fitness industry advocates strength training and, particularly, balance movements. This is why it's so common to see at gyms people doing low-intensity military presses off of those balancing half-balls, whatever they're called. Sure, it may be difficult, but that's mainly because most people have terrible balance -- which is perfectly fine. The average person doesn't need to be able to balance themselves in these unusual ways that they come up with at gyms. The problem is the need to "stabalize" (a key sucker word in the fitness industry) requires less weight for what would otherwise be a highly-productive exercise. Sure, you would probably want that specific balance if you're a soccer player or a basketball player, but if you're someone looking to simply get "fit" or "toned", whatever, is that really the most productive way to achieving your goals? Staple compound lifts like squats and pullups require a much greater deal of muscular effort yet still demand strong stabalizer musclers. The added bonus is the cardio element, which is far greater than than these unsual balancing exercises.

It's a perfect example of common fitness principles taken out of context because of scoundrel marketing.


----------



## Built (Jul 7, 2010)

Phineas said:


> I agree that with proper guidance kettleballs can be effective. However, the majority of gym-go'ers are misguided.


To be fair, Phineas, this is true for any other exercise modality. How are kipping chins or kettlebells any different from squats or deads in this regard?


----------



## ceazur (Jul 7, 2010)

Phineas said:


> I agree that with proper guidance kettleballs can be effective. However, the majority of gym-go'ers are misguided.



If you beat off enough correctly, then your forearms will also grow.


----------



## PushAndPull (Jul 7, 2010)

Built said:


> To be fair, Phineas, this is true for any other exercise modality. How are kipping chins or kettlebells any different from squats or deads in this regard?



You have a good point with the kettlebells, but kipping chins? I think kipping chins are an incorrectly performed pull up, period. To be clear, are you saying that you believe that "kipping chins" are a good exercise if performed correctly?


----------



## Phineas (Jul 7, 2010)

Built said:


> To be fair, Phineas, this is true for any other exercise modality. How are kipping chins or kettlebells any different from squats or deads in this regard?



I agree. 

I was just speaking about kettleballs at the moment because stepaukas was arguing against Merkaba who referred specifically to them as a new trend that people are following blindly.


----------



## stepaukas (Jul 7, 2010)

phineas
yes, i agree with your post  (#32).
trouble with most gyms is they have young guys running them that dont know very much, and they have nice looking girls as trainers that dont know a thing.
usually in most big cities, you'll find a few very old hard core gyms (like the one arnold was training in in pumping iron).i think that was golds, or world gym.. anyway, the old gyms are usually run by older guys that have been around, and were great athletes, that give you and show you the proper training and tequnique....
just like rope climbing and pole climbing. new to some because of crossfit, but those two been around years.
we climbed poles and ropes to the top of our gym. back in the 60's great great exercise..
(ok ceasure, make fun of me cause i'm old).
but yes i agree, as long as proper coaching is there, all the out of the box exercises are great. do those exercises and regular ones..
you guys on this board are building a bodybuilding body. i build strength for cycling..
totally different. 
but, out of a million posts on this forums, you still can pick up that one tip that will help you..
i'm old, per ceasure, but aint old enough to keep trying to improve myself..


----------



## Built (Jul 7, 2010)

I haven't personally done kipping chins, but what's your problem with them pushandpull?


----------



## PushAndPull (Jul 7, 2010)

Built said:


> I haven't personally done kipping chins, but what's your problem with them pushandpull?



The same problem with cheating on any exercise.  If you cannot perform the exercise correctly then you're not ready for that exercise. If someone was unable to do pull ups, a good recommendation might be negatives and then finish with lat pull-downs. A bad recommendation would be to teach them to cheat with improper form, such as kipping. Then you have more experienced lifters who do kipping pull ups to inflate their numbers, these egotistical assholes set a bad example for beginners and lead them to believe it's a legitimate exercise.


----------



## Built (Jul 7, 2010)

Ah, you're thinking they're the same as a pullup. By your definition, a hang clean is an incorrectly executed upright row.


----------



## Phineas (Jul 7, 2010)

ceazur said:


> If you beat off enough correctly, then your forearms will also grow.


----------



## PushAndPull (Jul 7, 2010)

Built said:


> Ah, you're thinking they're the same as a pullup. By your definition, a hang clean is an incorrectly executed upright row.



No, i'm thinking in terms of this thread. They were put out there like an alternative to pull ups. They're not an alternative to pull-ups since very little of the lats are involved. People who do kipping pull-ups or some shitty swinging variation are very rarely looking for a fullbody workout and actually believe that they are doing pull-ups. I don't think a hang clean is an incorrectly executed upright row but a unfinished clean and press. At least the hang clean has some real value to it unlike the kipping.


----------



## twarrior (Jul 7, 2010)

ceazur said:


> That's like asking what makes bud light taste so good..



Who said deer piss tastes so good?


----------



## twarrior (Jul 7, 2010)

ceazur said:


> If you beat off enough correctly, then your forearms will also grow.



Ceazur,
 I think your forearm training is paying off!!


----------



## ramboris (Jul 7, 2010)

Merkaba said:


> Don't worry we're getting ready to put a stop to that shit!  Plus he just joined, and you see he wants you to go to his forum which he has in his status.  Shit for what, its obvious you don't know what you're talking about!


Hey I don't want to argue with you because I know you are looking for any excuse to ban me. But if you think I don't know what I'm talking about then your very stupid. I train with world champion power-lifters and some very good bodybuilders and guess what? None of them think what you so boldly claim. If you want to test how smart I am then ask me any question you want. I just might surprise you.


----------



## ramboris (Jul 7, 2010)

Phineas said:


> Are you serious? This is such flawed advice it's not even funny.
> 
> Just because you may push your body through high-intensity lifting, as in sub-maximal loads, doesn't mean you have to find yourself nearly unconscious or wanting to puke. In fact, feeling sick would be more an indication of overtraining, if anything. I've heard of people feeling sick on 20-rep squat, but that's a unique exception -- as it's intended to be a form of structured overtraining (in a sense).
> 
> On maybe three occassions I felt like puking, and none of those instances were from single heavy sets but fast-paced endurance sessions; it was more from the lactic buildup and heavy lung work than muscular fatigue.


To reach my intensity level it really takes years of balls to the walls training. You mentioned 20-rep squats. I do more reps than that, I literally go until I drop from exhaustion. Some think its stupid, but its the way I like to train. Any exercise, and I mean any exercise, if done to ultimate muscular failure (which is very hard to do) will leave you in huge amounts of pain. 

Even a simple isolation exercise such as side laterals when done to full muscular failure (going to full positive failure 15-20 reps and then doing 30 partials done very slowly) will be so painful and exhausting that you will fall to the ground in agony.

Most people who think they reach positive failure only do 60-70% of what they could really do. It really takes a different type of mindset to grind out those last few impossible reps. Most people are too afraid of the pain to push themselves that hard. I know that people will start calling me stupid, that I don't know that I'm talking about, etc... And I guarantee that almost every person here will say that they train with all-out intensity, but those who are truly honest with themselves will know that I'm right.


----------



## KelJu (Jul 7, 2010)

ramboris said:


> Hey I don't want to argue with you because I know you are looking for any excuse to ban me. But if you think I don't know what I'm talking about then your very stupid. I train with world champion power-lifters and some very good bodybuilders and guess what? None of them think what you so boldly claim. If you want to test how smart I am then ask me any question you want. I just might surprise you.



ROFL, I think you are full of shit.


----------



## ramboris (Jul 7, 2010)

KelJu said:


> ROFL, I think you are full of shit.


If you want me to prove it pm me and I will give you the name of the gym and the people I know. I will even give you the phone # if you want. I have no reason to lie to you or anybody else. Lets stop this non-sense and talk training!


----------



## ceazur (Jul 7, 2010)

ramboris said:


> If you want me to prove it pm me and I will give you the name of the gym and the people I know. I will even give you the phone # if you want. I have no reason to lie to you or anybody else. Lets stop this non-sense and talk training!



No let's don't an say we did.. Lets talk about the massive amounts of gayness that your spreading all over our beautiful forums.


----------



## ramboris (Jul 7, 2010)

ceazur said:


> No let's don't an say we did.. Lets talk about the massive amounts of gayness that your spreading all over our beautiful forums.


I'm not even gonna reply to your immature posts anymore. It's obvious the only reason your here is to post garbage and make a fool of yourself.


----------



## KelJu (Jul 7, 2010)

ramboris said:


> If you want me to prove it pm me and I will give you the name of the gym and the people I know. I will even give you the phone # if you want. I have no reason to lie to you or anybody else. Lets stop this non-sense and talk training!



Sure, please send me the phone numbers of the people you know. I don't believe you. If you send me the numbers, I'll retract everything I said.


----------



## FMJ (Jul 7, 2010)

ramboris said:


> To reach my intensity level it really takes years of balls to the walls training. You mentioned 20-rep squats. I do more reps than that, I literally go until I drop from exhaustion. Some think its stupid, but its the way I like to train. Any exercise, and I mean any exercise, if done to ultimate muscular failure (which is very hard to do) will leave you in huge amounts of pain.
> 
> Even a simple isolation exercise such as side laterals when done to full muscular failure (going to full positive failure 15-20 reps and then doing 30 partials done very slowly) will be so painful and exhausting that you will fall to the ground in agony.
> 
> Most people who think they reach positive failure only do 60-70% of what they could really do. It really takes a different type of mindset to grind out those last few impossible reps. Most people are too afraid of the pain to push themselves that hard. I know that people will start calling me stupid, that I don't know that I'm talking about, etc... And I guarantee that almost every person here will say that they train with all-out intensity, but those who are truly honest with themselves will know that I'm right.


 
Don't you find that routinely going that intense all the time and taking muscles to failure consistantly is too taxing to the CNS?
How do you avoid overtraining when you keep it at full throttle like that?
The only one's who can push these limits all the time are the guys using gear and everyone know's the same rules don't apply for the natty athletes. Guys not on gear would do themselves more harm than good using a routine like you've described. Advising beginners or even seasoned lifters to take it to failure every set and every exercise is absurd, particularly if those guys are natural.


----------



## Zaphod (Jul 7, 2010)

Guess I'll try giving negatives a try for pull-ups.  Since right now I can't do one complete pull-up.  

How many negatives per set and how many sets?  My ultimate goal is to be able to do 10 pull-ups, from full down to chin over the bar without hyperextending my neck.


----------



## PushAndPull (Jul 7, 2010)

FMJ said:


> Don't you find that routinely going that intense all the time and taking muscles to failure consistantly is too taxing to the CNS?
> How do you avoid overtraining when you keep it at full throttle like that?
> The only one's who can push these limits all the time are the guys using gear and everyone know's the same rules don't apply for the natty athletes. Guys not on gear would do themselves more harm than good using a routine like you've described. Advising beginners or even seasoned lifters to take it to failure every set and every exercise is absurd, particularly if those guys are natural.



Completely agree. This spamming retard doesn't even differentiate between people training natural and those on gear. Look at this quote



ramboris said:


> Take a look at the Tom Platz video on youtube. He does 23 or 24 reps with 500 pounds going all the way down. It's amazing, I want to be able to do that one day.



You wanna do that one day?  Hope you have some fantastic gear.


----------



## PushAndPull (Jul 7, 2010)

Zaphod said:


> Guess I'll try giving negatives a try for pull-ups.  Since right now I can't do one complete pull-up.
> 
> How many negatives per set and how many sets?  My ultimate goal is to be able to do 10 pull-ups, from full down to chin over the bar without hyperextending my neck.



Negatives are great way to start. Maybe try 3 sets of 5 to start out with. Just depends on your current strength. I would recommend using the lat-pulldown as your next exercise.You should also check how your strength is on different grips. IMO, from hardest to easiest grip is: overhand, underhand, then neutral. So maybe you can do a few reps with a different grip, and then start your negatives. I'm glad that you don't want to hyperextend your neck, that's douchebag style.


----------



## Built (Jul 8, 2010)

^ Agreed. Set up where you can stand on a box and get yourself to eye level that way. Then lower with just your toes on the box, knees bent, try a five second count. Work up to five sets of five negs. At first you'll just STAND to the "up" position, but eventually you'll be able to give yourself less and less of an assist.


----------



## KelJu (Jul 8, 2010)

PushAndPull said:


> Negatives are great way to start. Maybe try 3 sets of 5 to start out with. Just depends on your current strength. I would recommend using the lat-pulldown as your next exercise.You should also check how your strength is on different grips. IMO, from hardest to easiest grip is: overhand, underhand, then neutral. So maybe you can do a few reps with a different grip, and then start your negatives. I'm glad that you don't want to hyperextend your neck, that's douchebag style.



I forgot all about negatives. Hmm, I think I'll do some negatives today.


----------



## ramboris (Jul 8, 2010)

FMJ said:


> Don't you find that routinely going that intense all the time and taking muscles to failure consistantly is too taxing to the CNS?
> How do you avoid overtraining when you keep it at full throttle like that?
> The only one's who can push these limits all the time are the guys using gear and everyone know's the same rules don't apply for the natty athletes. Guys not on gear would do themselves more harm than good using a routine like you've described. Advising beginners or even seasoned lifters to take it to failure every set and every exercise is absurd, particularly if those guys are natural.


I am natural also. Yes, the CNS does get overtaxed if this kind of training is continued long enough. Even if one uses steroids the CNS still eventually gets stressed so much that you need to take a break. That's why I do "active recovery" every 6-8 weeks in order to let my CNS recover. During active recover I just do cardio and abs. This phase usually lasts 7-9 days. My training style is as intense as one human can train, but its also perfect. Everything about it is perfectly planned out so I can continue getting stronger/bigger.


----------



## ramboris (Jul 8, 2010)

PushAndPull said:


> Completely agree. This spamming retard doesn't even differentiate between people training natural and those on gear. Look at this quote
> 
> 
> 
> You wanna do that one day?  Hope you have some fantastic gear.



I am natural and I already explained what I do in the above post. 

Being natural doesn't mean you cant train intensely. Stop making excuses! Yes, steroids do help a lot, but that doesn't mean a natural cant make good, consistent progress.

And about the squat comment "hope you have some fantastic gear," I am not far away from that goal lol. I predict that I will be able to reach it within the next 3-4 years. Nothing is impossible if you believe in yourself and are willing to work hard enough to achieve your goal. I will post the video on youtube to show you guys when I reach my goal.


----------



## PushAndPull (Jul 8, 2010)

ramboris said:


> I am natural and I already explained what I do in the above post.
> 
> Being natural doesn't mean you cant train intensely. Stop making excuses! Yes, steroids do help a lot, but that doesn't mean a natural cant make good, consistent progress.
> 
> And about the squat comment "hope you have some fantastic gear," I am not far away from that goal lol. I predict that I will be able to reach it within the next 3-4 years. Nothing is impossible if you believe in yourself and are willing to work hard enough to achieve your goal. I will post the video on youtube to show you guys when I reach my goal.



The only thing I know for sure about you is that you're a spamming peice of shit and that's all I need to know. So fuck you, fuck your advice, and fuck your board.


----------



## ramboris (Jul 8, 2010)

PushAndPull said:


> The only thing I know for sure about you is that you're a spamming peice of shit and that's all I need to know. So fuck you, fuck your advice, and fuck your board.


Its funny now that I made you look stupid your changing the subject in order to make me look bad. I love trolls such as yourself, you make this forum more interesting. 

I'm here to talk training, but judging from your posts, your here to troll around. If you got nothing smart to say don't say anything at all.


----------



## PushAndPull (Jul 8, 2010)

ramboris said:


> Its funny now that I made you look stupid your changing the subject in order to make me look bad. I love trolls such as yourself, you make this forum more interesting.
> 
> I'm here to talk training, but judging from your posts, your here to troll around. If you got nothing smart to say don't say anything at all.



You're a spamming piece of shit, period. The only reason you're here is to try and recruit people to your board. You're not here to help anyone but yourself. Simply put, you're a greedy piece of shit that should die.


----------



## jmorrison (Jul 9, 2010)

It feels so wrong to disagree with Built on anything.  I feel dirty now.

Set me straight Built, but isn't a kipping pullup just cheating and opening yourself up to potential injury with jerky motions?  The only value I can see in them is maybe if you are trying to reach muscular failure on a set of pullups and use them when you cant do any more?

(waits for lightning to strike)


----------



## ceazur (Jul 9, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> It feels so wrong to disagree with Built on anything.  I feel dirty now.
> 
> Set me straight Built, but isn't a kipping pullup just cheating and opening yourself up to potential injury with jerky motions?  The only value I can see in them is maybe if you are trying to reach muscular failure on a set of pullups and use them when you cant do any more?
> 
> (waits for lightning to strike)



That's the only reason I use them..


----------



## stepaukas (Jul 9, 2010)

this forum is supose to be an open forum to help each one of us reach our athletic goals.. re: the kipping pullup.. before anyone else says these are "cheating", do research on this exercise.. you'll see how they are superior to the deadhangs.
"cheating", per who????? people that say these are cheating know nothing about them..
dont just go to a crossfit board to research.. these exercises have been around 100's of years. they are not a new fad..
its always best to listen, before speaking. try to pick up knowledge before bashing it. thats why you have two ears and one mouth.
step back, look at the movement, reaseach the movement, and maybe you'll find some not ordinary everyday in gym movements are better..


----------



## PushAndPull (Jul 9, 2010)

How are kipping pull ups better than dead hangs for building your lats?


----------



## KelJu (Jul 9, 2010)

PushAndPull said:


> The only thing I know for sure about you is that you're a spamming peice of shit and that's all I need to know. So fuck you, fuck your advice, and fuck your board.



You see, you are starting to fit in with our board a lot better now. At first I thought you were going to be one of those easily offended pricks, but you made the transition nicely.

Well done!


----------



## KelJu (Jul 9, 2010)

ramboris said:


> I am natural and I already explained what I do in the above post.
> 
> Being natural doesn't mean you cant train intensely. Stop making excuses! Yes, steroids do help a lot, but that doesn't mean a natural cant make good, consistent progress.
> 
> And about the squat comment "hope you have some fantastic gear," I am not far away from that goal lol. I predict that I will be able to reach it within the next 3-4 years. Nothing is impossible if you believe in yourself and are willing to work hard enough to achieve your goal. I will post the video on youtube to show you guys when I reach my goal.



You are obviously lying through your teeth. By the way, where are those phone numbers you spoke of. I am still waiting you lying piece of shit.


----------



## PushAndPull (Jul 9, 2010)

KelJu said:


> You see, you are starting to fit in with our board a lot better now. At first I thought you were going to be one of those easily offended pricks, but you made the transition nicely.
> 
> Well done!



Well don't get to friendly, i'm still a prick


----------



## FMJ (Jul 9, 2010)




----------



## Zaphod (Jul 9, 2010)

Egads!  Went and did back today and gave the negatives a whirl for getting started in the land of pull-ups.  Felt muscles working that I haven't felt working in a long time.  Barely managed a full three sets of five negatives.  That was hard stuff!


----------



## PushAndPull (Jul 9, 2010)

Zaphod said:


> Egads!  Went and did back today and gave the negatives a whirl for getting started in the land of pull-ups.  Felt muscles working that I haven't felt working in a long time.  Barely managed a full three sets of five negatives.  That was hard stuff!



Good work. Pull ups are a hard exercise and take some time to get good at, so have patience and keep at them. In the end you won't be disappointed in the results from your hard work.


----------



## KelJu (Jul 9, 2010)

Zaphod said:


> Egads!  Went and did back today and gave the negatives a whirl for getting started in the land of pull-ups.  Felt muscles working that I haven't felt working in a long time.  Barely managed a full three sets of five negatives.  That was hard stuff!



Damn you, I came here to post this. Yeah, I did 4 sets of nurtal grip pullups with 5-6 second negatives.

My back is sore as shit today, and my back hasn't; been sore since after my first workout after coming back.


----------



## PushAndPull (Jul 9, 2010)

KelJu said:


> Damn you, I came here to post this. Yeah, I did 4 sets of nurtal grip pullups with 5-6 second negatives.
> 
> My back is sore as shit today, and my back hasn't; been sore since after my first workout after coming back.



Good work. Pull ups are a hard exercise and take some time to get good at, so have patience and keep at them. In the end you won't be disappointed in the results from your hard work.


----------



## jmorrison (Jul 9, 2010)

When I kicked off last year I couldnt do 1 good pullup.  Not 1.  Had to do all negatives and a chair to help me out.  I am still not a pullup machine, but I can do more than a few now!


----------



## ceazur (Jul 9, 2010)

I am trying to knock out 25 dead hangs before I kick off to boot camp in September. Im at like 15. I went from 5 - 13 fast, doing sets every day. Then SOMEONE told me incorporate them into my weekly back and bi routine so i didn't overtrain. Well I did and I am only at 15 now. I am starting to do them every other day ,and push ups and dips every other day. I can already feel im going to advance quicker again this way.


----------



## Merkaba (Jul 9, 2010)

stepaukas said:


> merkaba
> your quote here i have to disagree with.
> 
> "Again, the latest fad, like kettlebells...with so many people not really knowing what they are even trying to accomplish".
> ...



I'm not knocking the exercise itself. My point is that it's CURRENTLY a fad.  Like in my rinky dink gym I was THE ONLY person doing front squats a year ago. Now noone has gotten a trainer, yet everyone wants to try them.  I saw a 50 year old couple trying to do zerchers for christ sake. And I've never seen this  couple trying them until today.  People go read a mag or some shit and think they know what they're doing.  It's the curious side of the human nature to some degree I suppose. Curiosity killed the cat, and caused George to piss me off everytime I watched his dumb ass too!   ...But I digress...

My gym didn't have kettles a year ago. Now they have the color coded ones with the nice rubber coated and padded handles, laying around like loaded lawsuit bombs.    That's part of my point.  Now folks are in there trying to herniate a disk or blow a rotator cuff just because its the "IN" thing to do.  The "trainer" has new folks doing them and he doesn't even know what he's doing.  I have seen NOONE and I repeat NOONE use them yet with proper form, spinal consideration or "cadence" if you will, speed and tempo, to this day. Not in any of my gyms.


----------



## Zaphod (Jul 10, 2010)

KelJu said:


> Damn you, I came here to post this. Yeah, I did 4 sets of nurtal grip pullups with 5-6 second negatives.
> 
> My back is sore as shit today, and my back hasn't; been sore since after my first workout after coming back.



The hardest part, I think, was feeling a bit like a doofus using a stool to get up over the bar.  Mostly because it's not a typical thing to see where I go.


----------



## dippa66 (Jul 10, 2010)

Hey B56, to answer the question that you actually asked, the reason why pull-ups are good, better or best for your lats (see above argument) is because your latissimus dorsi is attached to you humerus and pulling your arms down, or pulling your weight up, is basically what it was designed for. 

The best training tip - get an anatomy book and read up on how each muscle works i.e. lats pulling, triceps extend lower arm, biceps flex and rotate forearm etc.


----------



## Phineas (Jul 10, 2010)

dippa66 said:


> Hey B56, to answer the question that you actually asked, the reason why pull-ups are good, better or best for your lats (see above argument) is because your latissimus dorsi is attached to you humerus and pulling your arms down, or pulling your weight up, is basically what it was designed for.
> 
> The best training tip - get an anatomy book and read up on how each muscle works i.e. lats pulling, triceps extend lower arm, biceps flex and rotate forearm etc.



Them be there some fancy words, I reckon, Ma!


----------



## ramboris (Jul 10, 2010)

KelJu said:


> You are obviously lying through your teeth. By the way, where are those phone numbers you spoke of. I am still waiting you lying piece of shit.


I have been busy give me a day or two and I will give u everything u need.


----------



## Phineas (Jul 10, 2010)

ramboris said:


> I have been busy give me a day or two and I will give u everything u need.


----------



## KelJu (Jul 10, 2010)

ramboris said:


> I have been busy give me a day or two and I will give u everything u need.



ROFL, you're funny dude. Retarded...but funny.


----------



## Built (Jul 11, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> It feels so wrong to disagree with Built on anything.  I feel dirty now.


Don't be silly. I have no more of a patent on being right than you are.


> Set me straight Built, but isn't a kipping pullup just cheating and opening yourself up to potential injury with jerky motions?  The only value I can see in them is maybe if you are trying to reach muscular failure on a set of pullups and use them when you cant do any more?
> 
> (waits for lightning to strike)


I'm hesitant to say that kips are superior to chins; I simply don't  know enough to address this question. But kipping chins have been used for a long time, as have "strict" chins. The kipping chinup is a dynamic, full-body movement that contributes to the development of power and speed. Strict chins focus more of the force on the lats (and to a substantial degree from abdominal and bicep assistance), and are more of a body-building exercise in the truest sense of that word, in that they are used specifically to produce a stimulus for growth (in the lats).

There are lots of movements that exist as dynamic and strict movements; for example squats and jump squats.

Both types of movements "work". They just don't do the same thing. It would be like comparing a 20 minute walk with a 20 second sprint. Sprinting isn't the cheater version of walking. They're both good, and they both "work".



PushAndPull said:


> Good work. Pull ups are a hard exercise and take some time to get good at, so have patience and keep at them. In the end you won't be disappointed in the results from your hard work.





KelJu said:


> Damn you, I came here to post this. Yeah, I did 4 sets of nurtal grip pullups with 5-6 second negatives.
> 
> My back is sore as shit today, and my back hasn't; been sore since after my first workout after coming back.



Isn't it nuts? 

When you're strong/light enough to do 'em unassisted, and you want to start loading them with weight, do the same thing. It took me a rather long while to figure this part out - I had a very hard time adding any weight to my unweighted chins, but when I started OVERloading the negatives, I got the same benefit as I did when first learning the unweighted movement. 



Zaphod said:


> The hardest part, I think, was feeling a bit like a doofus using a stool to get up over the bar.  Mostly because it's not a typical thing to see where I go.


I know, right? The guys I've shown this to all looked embarrassed to be seen struggling with this "pussy" movement. LOL!


----------



## Zaphod (Jul 11, 2010)

Never really thought of it as a pussy movement.  I've always struggled with them.  Back in the day, some fifteen years ago, I could manage a few.  Then the sticking point was getting what I felt was high enough (chin over the bar without trying to look like ET).  Coming out of the bottom from a full stretch hang was the easy part for me.  Now all of it's hard and negatives are the starting point.


----------



## blergs. (Jul 11, 2010)

DB side rasis are also very good for this.


----------



## brk_nemesis (Jul 11, 2010)

clap pullups anyone?


----------



## jmorrison (Jul 11, 2010)

Built said:


> There are lots of movements that exist as dynamic and strict movements; for example squats and jump squats.
> 
> Both types of movements "work". They just don't do the same thing. It would be like comparing a 20 minute walk with a 20 second sprint. Sprinting isn't the cheater version of walking. They're both good, and they both "work".




And on that note I will add them to my workout and give them a shot.  Damn I'm easy.


----------



## Built (Jul 11, 2010)

I'ma try 'em, too. As I said, I've never tried 'em before, but I'll toss a few in tomorrow just to see how they feel. I'm thinking they'd be a good addition to a session of complexes.


----------



## Phineas (Jul 12, 2010)

Built said:


> I'm hesitant to say that kips are superior to chins; I simply don't  know enough to address this question. But kipping chins have been used for a long time, as have "strict" chins. The kipping chinup is a dynamic, full-body movement that contributes to the development of power and speed. Strict chins focus more of the force on the lats (and to a substantial degree from abdominal and bicep assistance), and are more of a body-building exercise in the truest sense of that word, in that they are used specifically to produce a stimulus for growth (in the lats).
> 
> There are lots of movements that exist as dynamic and strict movements; for example squats and jump squats.
> 
> Both types of movements "work". They just don't do the same thing. It would be like comparing a 20 minute walk with a 20 second sprint. Sprinting isn't the cheater version of walking. They're both good, and they both "work".



I don't know if I can speak for everyone else, but my problem with kipping pullups was simply that they were suggested to the OP as an exercise, even though he's looking for lat-*development*. 

I agree that, just like many other exercises, there are dynamic variations for speed, power, agility, etc. However, in the context of bodybuilding and strength, strict movements are ideal. Of course, incorporating some staple dynamic lifts like hang cleans is a good idea, but I would never replace a staple strict bodybuilding lift like pullups for a momentum lift. Hang cleans I find more suitable in a strength program since (a) unless the lifter is following a program with power/dynamic sessions, cleans are often the only power lift in the program, and (b) the only strict compound a hang clean would usually replace is the vertical push, so a military press or shoulder press, etc. And, of all the six planes of motion I feel vertical push is the only expendable one, as horizontal push will cover the same muscles in addition to pecs.


----------



## Merkaba (Jul 13, 2010)

Fuck a fucking Kipping Pullup....Ok.  If you want to do a dvd workout do it.  If not, then look for other more educated, efficient,safe, and effective things to do with your time besides something a bunch of water-cut models are getting paid to tell you.


/GoddamThread


----------



## PushAndPull (Jul 13, 2010)

Merkaba said:


> Fuck a fucking Kipping Pullup....Ok.  If you want to do a dvd workout do it.  If not, then look for other more educated, efficient,safe, and effective things to do with your time besides something a bunch of water-cut models are getting paid to tell you.
> 
> 
> /GoddamThread



Werd!


----------



## stepaukas (Jul 13, 2010)

you guys that are downplaying kipping pullups..
you ever do these?
not a new fad at all. been around forever. just a different way to train.. a different exercise. great great exercise.


----------



## Merkaba (Jul 13, 2010)

stepaukas said:


> you guys that are downplaying kipping pullups..
> you ever do these?
> not a new fad at all. been around forever. just a different way to train.. a different exercise. great great exercise.



to play devils advocate....

Bad squats have also been around forever, also a different way to train.

And a Great exercise for what goal?


----------



## unclem (Jul 31, 2010)

i think i have to do some negatives for back, i cant do to many, but when i first started i could do alot of them.


----------



## Merkaba (Aug 15, 2010)

mykolous1 said:


> wow



Are you spamming for thread count?  It will be a waste of your time if you're not planning on sticking around and supplying at least some coherent criticism.  Go click on some ads or something to at least make yourself useful!


----------



## Merkaba (Aug 15, 2010)

ramboris said:


> Hey I don't want to argue with you because I know you are looking for any excuse to ban me. But if you think I don't know what I'm talking about then your very stupid. I train with world champion power-lifters and some very good bodybuilders and guess what? None of them think what you so boldly claim. If you want to test how smart I am then ask me any question you want. I just might surprise you.



Wow...how did I miss this one?  Oh well


----------

