# my diet (posted) - do I need to eliminate protein shakes??????



## kate4646 (May 22, 2004)

Hi All - 
I am relatively new to all this, but have been working out really hard (jog 5 miles every other day, lifting 12-10-8-6 to muscle failure) and been eating the same thing every day (posted below - I know, it sounds boring, but it is easier for me to stick to if I eat the same exact thing.)  When I started this 4 weeks ago, I was 150 pounds at 5' 9" and 22% BF, I'd like to get down to 130 and 15-17% BF (I have no idea what I presently weigh, I'm not going to weigh/test until 12 weeks in).  

My question is this:  in the new Oxygen Magazine, they showed three fitness competitors' on-season diets, and I noticed that the major difference between their diets and mine is that they use virtually NO protein shakes/bars.  Since I'm looking for drastic changes, should I do the same?  THANKS SO MUCH, this has really been worrying me.

My diet:
Daily Menu:
1) Myoplex Lite (190), 1 tbsp. EFA (130)
2) 4 oz. raw/ 3 oz. cooked skinless chicken breast (100), 1 cup broccoli (25), 1 tbsp. eggless canola mayo (35)
3) same as 2
4) Myplex Lite (190)
5) same as 2
6) Myoplex Lite shake (190)



TOTAL (from Fitday)
1193 calories
35 g. fat
68 g. carbs
145 g. protein


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## Akateros (May 22, 2004)

I'd say you are eating too damn little, protein shakes or not. Under 1200 calories? At 140-150 pounds or so? That's a starvation diet.

As for eliminating shakes, the main reason a lot of competitors do that as they get close to a show is that they are trying to get rid of additives, sweeteners and other causes of bloat or possible chemical influence -- this so that the final couple weeks of fancy salt/water/carb manipulation have as clean a slate as possible. That's all.

However, it would not do you any harm at all to get in some real food. For one, there's this thing called "nutrients" which appears to be almost completely foreign to your diet. For another, real food has what's called "thermogenic effect". Shakes, being highly processed, take almost no effort for the body to digest. Real food, on the other hand, needs to be broken down, so that adds a small extra calorie burn (small, but every little bit helps, right) to each meal.

However, the main thing is, you need more food. About the _lowest_ one can really go without inducing starvation response is 10x bodyweight in calories -- and even at that, one is wise to include a "refeed" day with extra carbs and calories at _least_every few days. (See Jodi's great sticky at the top of this forum, on Refeeds and Leptin.)


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## Vale Tudo (May 22, 2004)

more chewing, less drinking


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## kate4646 (May 22, 2004)

Akateros -

Thanks for your reply - I appreciate it.

I read on John Hussman's fitness site by using his BMR calculator that my caloric range for weight loss is between 1120 and 1410.  And, he goes on to say that the upper limits of that range are no 'excuse' to increase calories, that if I'm taking in adequate protein and lifting I will experience maximum fat loss and muscle gains.  Thoughts??  And if you disagree, what caloric range do you think I should be aiming for to achieve my goals?  I'd really like to eventually become a figure competitor, and eventually weigh about 130 with 15-17% BF.


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## kate4646 (May 22, 2004)

Thanks for the reply Vale - I do the protein shake thing because I'm at work all the time and it's easier (and satisfies my occasional craving for something that resembles sweetness.)


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## JLB001 (May 22, 2004)

Kate..the thing you have to keep in mind with the diet's posted in magazines that competitor's use, may be cutting diets.  You'll loose the weight, but it may come back after you go back to a more normal eatting plan.  You really want to try and keep the weight lose to no more than 2 lbs per week or it is too much.  Just my two cents, you would be better off eatting real foods instead of bars and protein shakes.  Your body has to work to digest the food which speeds up the metabo.  Shakes are easy, but so is taking real foods with you.  Just takes a little extra planning.  I also see that you need more carbs and efa's in your meals.  Are the carbs you  have listed only in the shakes?


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## kate4646 (May 22, 2004)

Hey JLB -
Thanks for the reply.  Yup, my carbs come primarily from the Myoplex lite.  I'd like to add in some oats, but I have a really hard time controlling my eating behavior once I have a couple bites of oats and splenda - in the past I have tended to binge on them so I'm avoiding them for now.  Do you think I should add in 1/4 c. brown rice or legumes w/ the chicken/broc meals?  I'm hesitant to bring the carbs up.  But, I have also read recently that my lack of carbs could be inhibiting my muscle gains (although I see dramatic visual differences in muscle definition on my arms and legs since I started lifting heavy weights.)  Unfortunately, my stomach's still soft.  Thoughts?  And, do you agree my cals are too low?  Like I said above, according to Hussman's BMR calc. I'm in the zone for fat loss and muscle gain. Thanks!


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## JLB001 (May 22, 2004)

Don't be scared of the carbs.  If they are good carbs, they won't hurt you, they'll only help you.  I would add in the rice or legumes w/the chicken/broc meals.  I would also try to limit the shakes to say 2 per day, replace one of them with real foods and an additional serving of carbs.  You can switch up the veggies too for varity if you like other things besides brocolli, just stick to the non starchy ones.  

Myself, I function pretty well on the type of plan you have outlined with about the same amount in calories, I would suggest having a day where you do get to consume more calories for one meal day, like a refeed, so your body can be tricked into burning more.


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## Akateros (May 22, 2004)

You would probably be better off physically if you ate some carbs, although I see your difficulties if you tend to binge. I find I do best in terms of workouts, muscle gain and fat loss if I eat carbs early in the day every day -- first two meals -- on "low" days, then stick with the protein and veg for later meals, and then on high days have carbs with most meals but the very last.

There is nothing to say that you have to have oats. You can make omelettes, say, with brown rice or beans, for breakfast, or perhaps bean cakes or patties. Some people report binge troubles with artificial sweeteners -- it might be the Splenda that's the problem, rather than the oats. You're going to have to include carbs somehow, though, or your health will suffer sooner or later. And you'll be better off to learn to deal with them on a more or less daily basis -- low-carb diets with refeeds are NOT advisable for anybody with existing binge issues.


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## aztecwolf (May 22, 2004)

why are you not going to weigh yourself till week 12?


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## kate4646 (May 22, 2004)

Thank you all for taking the time writing such thoughful replies (again), I appreciate all the words of advice!!  I'm going to add 1/4 c. lentils to 2 of my 3 chicken meals and take it down to 2 myoplex shakes, and in its place add 1/2 cottage cheese and 6 egg whites.  I think that makes the plan more liveable, at least for now.

I wasn't planning on weighing myself until 12 weeks because I know that I am building muscle and rehydrating muscle (as some background - I was a marathon runner, thin (around 135) yet not at all cut, when I overran a stress fracture, broke a bone, and was off all exercise for 6 months, and gained 15 pounds, and I remember way back in the day when I started running the scale said I actually gained weight because my body was freaking out.)  BUT, that said, it does seem a little silly not to weigh. I just have been feeling good about my progress lately and not seeing movement in the scale might be a mental setback.  But, perhaps it is time to have weight BF retested.  I don't know . . .  y'all are the experts, not me . . .


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## Yanick (May 22, 2004)

Use tape/bodyfat measurements and the scale to gauge your progress.


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## rockcrest (May 23, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by aztecwolf *_
> why are you not going to weigh yourself till week 12?



thats what i was thinking.  its like yanick says too...you need to gauge your progress.  i get on the scale every saturday morning.


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## jaim91 (May 23, 2004)

Isn't 135 a little too thin for someone who's 5"9. I mean, I thought 140 - 150 would be adequate. Try going on one of those calcular things you used, and figure out how much you should weight. I can guarantee you that it will say more than 130 - 135. I agree with akateros about the starvation diet. You need more than 1100 calories. I'm 5"7 and am on approx. 2500 a day...Trust me. 130-135 is not healthy.


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## atherjen (May 23, 2004)

DITCH THE DAMNED SCALE!!!!! its EVIL to those that are trying to loose fat!! worst place to measure FAT loss!!! 
take measurements. 
have your bf% test via. calipers by someone experienced. 
take Akateros advice. Girl you need MORE food!! this will get things going again!! too many shake too. stick to tops 2/day. real food is much better, takes more energy to digest via thermogensis. 
you need AT LEAST 1500cals up to 1800 for fatloss.


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## jaim91 (May 23, 2004)

Atherjen is right - up the cals...


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## DimebagDarrell (May 23, 2004)

youre going to waste away into nothing.  go here and see how much you burn a day.  then if you want to lose weight then eat a few hundred less calories than that.  but 1100 calories is way too low.  i burn 3200 a day, so when bulking i have to break that, if i were to cut, i could get away with 2500 calories, which is "too much according to the FDA."

dont worry about your weight, worry about the way you look 

im 5'11", 173 lbs and my friend is 6'0" and 195 lbs, we both have near the same body fat %, but i look more muscular than he does.  numbers can be deceiving


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## jaim91 (May 24, 2004)

I have a feeling that Kate may be happy on her "diet", and not read any fo the responses, which is why she's not writing back.


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## JLB001 (May 24, 2004)

Hmmm..I'm not wasting away to nothing and my calories are low...right at 1200 or less a day.  All depends on what your goal is.  Mine is competition, but we also keep track of things weekly with our trainer.

Find your maint. calories then subtract 500.


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## Akateros (May 24, 2004)

Your calories are low, JLB, but for one, you're older (sorry, but it does make a difference) and for two, you do refeeds, so that isn't in fact your net average. For three, you _know_ your maintenance, and know that those comparably low intakes work for you.

My goals are competition too, but I can't go anywhere near that low (and I know because I've tried). Just stalls my loss, eats my muscle, and makes me binge. Personally I do best on carb and calorie cycling, since I can't do a deficit of five hundred a day and function -- while cycling, I saw in your journal, doesn't work for you.

I still think far too many active women underfeed themselves -- and if they look at other diets, they automatically pick the skimpiest, thinking that if low is good then lower is better. And there's this strange cachet to eating very little. Some kinda more feminine shit.

In my opinion -- and only my opinion -- I would like to see those with fat-loss goals start high, to give themselves somewhere to go. As well, again in my opinion, careful observation and journalling, at least at first, is a must, so that you can see and know what your own reactions are to any particular way of eating, and at what point it slows or stops working as well. There just ain't no answer that works for everyone, and other people's experience, while useful, is not your own.


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## JLB001 (May 24, 2004)

I agree with you about starting higher in the amount of calories and adjusting if you don't see results.    And keeping a food journal is a great way to track the things eatting and progress. 

I don't agree that everyone will weither away going lower calories, some people's body adjust to such type of diets better than others.  You have to find one that works best for you.


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## Stacey (May 24, 2004)

I agree with Jodie!!!

I keep my diet between 1100 calories and 1250 calories a day. This has worked for me perfectly..and I'm never starving!


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## jaim91 (May 25, 2004)

But are your goals weight loss Stacey, or is that your maintanance cals?

What's a refeed?


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## Stacey (May 25, 2004)

Mine are to maintain-and add some (not much more)muscle.


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## BigBallaGA (May 25, 2004)

off topic:

hey JLB, the universe is not endless !!!


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## nikegurl (May 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Stacey *_
> I keep my diet between 1100 calories and 1250 calories a day. This has worked for me perfectly..and I'm never starving!



But Kate is 5' 9"


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## Stacey (May 25, 2004)

ohhh Sorry Didn't see that.


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## ncgirl21 (May 25, 2004)

I'm 5'8 and I aim for around 1600 a day.  (This is for dieting- NOT maintaining).  I think you should increase your cals, but do it slowly, and if one day you can only eat 1200 but the next day you want 1800 you can do that.  I zig zag my calories a lot too!  

Good Luck reaching your goals!

(Oh, and about the protein shakes- I'd try to only have one a day and use real food the rest of the time)


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## kate4646 (May 25, 2004)

Thank you all so much for your responses!  Sorry I've been MIA, I'm a lawyer and have been chained to my office for the last few days.

So, it seems that while some find the diet to be fine, the general consensus is that there are too few calories.  I have to tell you, that makes me really nervous.  I've tried to lose fat on 1400-1600 calorie/day diets and it hasn't worked, or if it worked it took like 3 months to lose just 10 pounds of fat (and that was when I was marathon running!!)  

I just don't know what to do . . .  I want to significantly decrease BF, but there's so much conflicting info out there.

If you were to design a diet for me, what would it include?  More carbs?  Protein?  More cardio?  More meals?  If someone told me that eating wallpaper paste would definitely, absolutely work, I'd do it   I am fully willing and able to do anything to achieve my goals, I just don't know what it is that I'm supposed to do!


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## Akateros (May 25, 2004)

What were you eating when you were eating 1400-1600 calories per day? And when? and how many meals?

Those variables can make a huge difference as well. At least, they do for me.

The thing is, as you can see just by looking at this thread, there really isn't any _surefire_ answer to what you're supposed to do. About the best you can do is to try the reasonable variations, and keep notes. A couple or three weeks in, you should be able to tell if you are moving in the right or the wrong direction, and at that point, you can change things up, either completely or in minor ways.

I found that Tom Venuto's e-book (available on this site, though I got it elsewhere) was very useful for me. His version of carb cycling really seemed to jive with me (though as I've bitched elsewhere, Twin Peaks' one didn't, quite). Or there are the lower carb diets like JLB's, with refeeds -- though as I mentioned, I'd be very, very careful with refeeds if you find you binge.

The binging, by the way, is a red flag of "too little calories" to me. When I binge, certainly when I binge on boring stuff like oatmeal (Splenda or not) it's almost entirely a physiological reaction to eating too little for a while leading up to it. I suspect that for a lot of people who binge or binge and purge, that that's how it starts -- and then, of course, if you have been eating too little for a while, you get that funky "carb buzz" which leads to emotional binging. (A lot of restricting anorexics eventually end up as either "purging anorexics" who binge, or full-on bulimics.)

More cardio is okay as a temporary option (pre-contest, double cardio suddenly gets very popular) but eventually one's body gets used to it, so it takes even MORE cardio just to maintain one's weight, let alone lose. If I were you, I wouldn't up cardio just yet.

You might want to begin just with calorie cycling, if upping cals every day is too scary. Do what you're doing (with the more-food meals) for two days, then every third day, have an 1800-calorie day. For the 1800-calorie day, boost your carbs by those extra few hundred calories just for the first three or four meals.

That puts you to a net of just short of 1400 calories per day, and with the caloric variation, you are less likely to stall either way.

See how you react to that (with bodyfat testing rather than scales if possible, as with calorie cycling, even in a deficit, you may gain lean mass and lose bodyfat without losing weight).


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## nikegurl (May 25, 2004)

awesome post Akateros.


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## atherjen (May 25, 2004)

I agree, superb advice Akateros!


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## jaim91 (May 26, 2004)

Yeah, Akateros and nc know what they're talking about.


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