# strength or muscle



## bigleebull (Feb 15, 2004)

What do you prefer.......
Me personally i prefer strength training purely because of my genetics...short legs thick torso.
my pb's are 240 kilo bench,350 kilo squat & 370 kilo d/lift.
I have tried to diet in the past but just lost size & strength.
I am 5'10" weighing 280lbs. 
Measurements are waist 40" chest 57" thigh32".
Am new to this forum & hope to get some pics on in the very near future.
I'd really like to hear other members views on their opinions of strength training vs bodybuilding........IS it about genetics?
cheers bigleebull.


----------



## spartan (Feb 15, 2004)

Strength, muscle looks impressive but is usless unless it is functional.


----------



## OmarJackson (Feb 15, 2004)

muscle. vanity rules.


----------



## Vieope (Feb 15, 2004)

_ Muscle of course. I don´t care if I can´t lift one pound .. if I have nice and symmetric muscles, I will be satisfied.
Don´t forget that it is a bodybuilding forum. _


----------



## BlueCorsair (Feb 15, 2004)

Without resorting to a rant, I'll agree it's genetics. From the research I've done myself, it seems quite clear than each person can only pack on so much lean mass.

Myself, at 5'6 or 5'7, and weighing only 145 pounds with a tiny frame likely will have a rather large challenge hitting say 160 pounds, and 170 is likely way out of potential sight. Size comes slower than strength for me usually - but right now both have stopped increasing 

Someone with your big build certainly is proof that size in some cases (more often than some would like to believe) does indeed equate with strength.


----------



## Vieope (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Yeah Buddy! *_
> vanity rules.



_ Exactly  _


----------



## spartan (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Vieope *_
> _...
> Don´t forget that it is a bodybuilding forum. _



Read the title of the forum " Bodybuilding & Fitness".


----------



## Vieope (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by spartan *_
> Read the title of the forum " Bodybuilding & Fitness".



_ 
Fitness = good psysical condition; being in shape. 
That doens´t imply directly strenght. Fitness can be a subjective concept.

You noticed that 99.9% of the ppl here is focused on bodybuilding. Right ? Not strenght. _


----------



## spartan (Feb 15, 2004)

I'm no going to waste time arguing with you. Whatever you think man.


----------



## bigleebull (Feb 15, 2004)

is strength training not a way of building muscle?
Just because we don't go on stage does'nt mean we are any less dedicated.
Do bodybuilders have pb's?
I lift heavy weights & try to look good at the same time.
Does this exclude me from the iron mag forum?


----------



## Vieope (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bigleebull *_
> I lift heavy weights & try to look good at the same time.
> Does this exclude me from the iron mag forum?



_ No way ..  You are welcome.. 
What I mean is that bodybuilding is about muscles.
_


----------



## bigleebull (Feb 15, 2004)

I agree bodybuilding is about muscles.....mine are probably bigger than most peoples but less defined.
But you cannot argue that the most effective way of building muscle is with high weight low rep programs.
Which leads me back to my original question ........
IS being strong vs having a physically muscular body genetical??


----------



## Vieope (Feb 15, 2004)

_ True. Overload is the answer .. as far as high rep or low rep, it depends, read the second question of this article: 
http://www.ironmagazine.com/viewarticle-975.html _


----------



## plouffe (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Vieope *_
> _
> 
> You noticed that 99.9% of the ppl here is focused on bodybuilding. Right ? Not strenght. _





I totally disagree. Everyone is concerned about strenth to an extent...


----------



## JLB001 (Feb 15, 2004)

Can I have both please?


----------



## CowPimp (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bigleebull *_
> I agree bodybuilding is about muscles.....mine are probably bigger than most peoples but less defined.
> But you cannot argue that the most effective way of building muscle is with high weight low rep programs.
> Which leads me back to my original question ........
> IS being strong vs having a physically muscular body genetical??



Genetics play a role in the types of fibers you contain in your muscles naturally.  Genetics do affect whether strength or mass comes easier.  However, depending on how you train, you can increase the number of different types of fibers in your muscles and try to alter you genetic predisposition, but it will definitely take more work.

I also think height affects strength/weight ratio.  Taller people simply have more bone matter, which adds weight that cannot be reduced or changed short of replacing your bones with carbon fiber...


----------



## Vieope (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by plouffe *_
> I totally disagree. Everyone is concerned about strenth to an extent...



_ Really ? Now I am confused.   _


----------



## bigleebull (Feb 15, 2004)

I did'nt want to start a war!!!
What is a bodybuilder anyway?
In my mind it is a person wanting to build their own body beyond it's normal limitations.
Whether it is muscular size,strength or physical endurance each individual is different.
A person who sets out to achieve a goal & needs to BUILD their body accordingly to match their needs is indeed a bodybuilder.
The term bodybuilder i feel does not apply to the stereotypical giants of the olympia stage,but to anybody wishing to increase their overall physical & mental wellbeing.


----------



## Vieope (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bigleebull *_
> I did'nt want to start a war!!!


_There is no way back now..  

Dictionary definition of bodybuilding  - act of lifting weights in order to enlarge muscles._


----------



## bigleebull (Feb 15, 2004)

dictionary def:bodybuilding=act of lifting weights in order to enlarge muscles,which in turn leads to greater muscle strength.
The bigger a muscle the stronger it is & visa versa.
Doesn't say enlarge muscles to specifically be a bodybuilder!!
The heart is a muscle!!!!!


----------



## spartan (Feb 15, 2004)

This is a foolish topic to argue about. Vieope I suggest you read more info on body types, muscle fiber composition,exercise complexity,relationship between reps and sets,training levels, loading parameterse for hypertrophy, loading parameters for relative strengthand the list goes on and on. You by your own admission are new to working out. I don't think that a dictionary definition holds much wieght in your arguement.


----------



## Vieope (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bigleebull *_
> dictionary def:bodybuilding=act of lifting weights in order to enlarge muscles,which in turn leads to greater muscle strength.
> The bigger a muscle the stronger it is & visa versa.
> Doesn't say enlarge muscles to specifically be a bodybuilder!!
> The heart is a muscle!!!!!



_ Strenght and muscle size doesn´t always walk together.

Of course that directly or indirectly, enlarging a muscle generates other things as greater muscle strentgh, or more caloric needs, among other things.

Who is with me that bodybuilding is about muscles ? I never thought that I would be asking this here. 
_


----------



## BBBoogieWoogie (Feb 15, 2004)

Why would you want to look strong and not be strong?  That's like playing a joke on yourself.  

"HA! HA!  Look at me, I'm so weak!"

I'd rather look like a string bean, and be able to lift a car over my head.


----------



## CowPimp (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Vieope *_
> _ Strenght and muscle size doesn´t always walk together.
> 
> Of course that directly or indirectly, enlarging a muscle generates other things as greater muscle strentgh, or more caloric needs, among other things.
> ...



I don't feel that bodybuilding is about one or the other.  I feel that it is building your body howeer you see fit.  Some prefer strength, some prefer mass, some want a little of both.  Some was endurance, some want to be more cut, and some just want to be healthier.  I'm sure there are other reasons even beyond these...


----------



## Skib (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by plouffe *_
> I totally disagree. Everyone is concerned about strenth to an extent...



i agree...

if you were always lifting the same weight you'd have no way of documenting your progress...

sure, you could look at yourself in the mirror, but let's be honest, you're not going to get any bigger lifting the same weight for an extended period of time...


----------



## JerseyDevil (Feb 15, 2004)

Anyone that can bench close to double their bodyweight is building something!  

Welcome to IM Bigleebull.

I'll go on record as saying I'm trying to do both.  I do not admire guys who are very defined, and can't lift shit.  Likewise, I'm not that impressed with guys who are ultra strong, but just look fat.

Somewhere in between works for me.


----------



## IronSlingah (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by JerseyDevil *_
> Anyone that can bench close to double their bodyweight is building something!
> 
> Welcome to IM Bigleebull.
> ...




Noway man the opposite sex cares about LOOKS and thats the ultimate reason we were put on this earth... to procreate. Besides you never hear much talk about who the strongest BB is. You always hear about the greatest LOOKING BB such as arnold. Even outside the BB world you only hear about the best LOOKING bodies not the strongest and infact outside of professional athletes and people that make their money by being strong and fit (Law enforcement, millitary, etc) not much people care how much they can lift if they look good.


----------



## CowPimp (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by IronSlingah *_
> Noway man the opposite sex cares about LOOKS and thats the ultimate reason we were put on this earth... to procreate. Besides you never hear much talk about who the strongest BB is. You always hear about the greatest LOOKING BB such as arnold. Even outside the BB world you only hear about the best LOOKING bodies not the strongest and infact outside of professional athletes and people that make their money by being strong and fit (Law enforcement, millitary, etc) not much people care how much they can lift if they look good.



Obviously this is wrong because half of the people or more responding to this thread seem to be concerned with strength somewhat.


----------



## firestorm (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Yeah Buddy! *_
> muscle. vanity rules.


hahahaha  that is funny sheit.


----------



## firestorm (Feb 15, 2004)

Personnally I like a good balance.  I don't see why I need to choose one over the other.   with strength comes size.  Now I wouldn't want to be sporting a 42 inch waist just to be able to say I can bench 600.  so with that said, I'd rather give up a few hundred pounds on the bench to look good too.


----------



## gr81 (Feb 15, 2004)

its all about strength fellas, how an you not wanna lift heavy ass weights. Of course BB is important to me, but the strength is just as big, infact its a bigger goal for me personally. Powerlifting IMO is a much more respectable sport than BB by far. Much more manly of a sport.


----------



## firestorm (Feb 15, 2004)

I hear that g but still I wouldn't want to be sporting that Mark Henry look.  Nope not me.


----------



## gr81 (Feb 15, 2004)

well that is way too far. that is also kindof the stereotypical powerlifter look, which is a category I don't see alot of new age guys fall under. If I had a chance to be 300lbs, even with a substantial amount of fat on me (maybe like 20% at the most) then I would be all over that shit personally. ha. thats just me thou. I just wanna be a real big strong man when its all said and done, silly little amateaur BB trophies will mean nothing compared to that. ya feel me?


----------



## Willdebeast (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BBBoogieWoogie *_
> Why would you want to look strong and not be strong?  That's like playing a joke on yourself.
> 
> "HA! HA!  Look at me, I'm so weak!"
> ...


i lift  to look good naked and make females want to have sex with me. I can doc. my progress by looking in the mirror.


----------



## firestorm (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> well that is way too far. that is also kindof the stereotypical powerlifter look, which is a category I don't see alot of new age guys fall under. If I had a chance to be 300lbs, even with a substantial amount of fat on me (maybe like 20% at the most) then I would be all over that shit personally. ha. thats just me thou. I just wanna be a real big strong man when its all said and done, silly little amateaur BB trophies will mean nothing compared to that. ya feel me?




I hear you G and I have no problems with that.


----------



## DanK (Feb 15, 2004)

Personally I'd like to look strong... and be much stronger, and of course I want to look good naked. I don't see how anyone could settle for just looking big... I remember someone posting about how they had seen a pro bb huffing and panting just walking to their gate (while some presumably scrawny twerp carrying that bb's bags is trucking right along like it's no big deal).


----------



## Willdebeast (Feb 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by DanK *_
> Personally I'd like to look strong... and be much stronger, and of course I want to look good naked. I don't see how anyone could settle for just looking big... I remember someone posting about how they had seen a pro bb huffing and panting just walking to their gate (while some presumably scrawny twerp carrying that bb's bags is trucking right along like it's no big deal).


 that is some funny shit


----------



## JerseyDevil (Feb 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> Personnally I like a good balance.  I don't see why I need to choose one over the other.   with strength comes size.  Now I wouldn't want to be sporting a 42 inch waist just to be able to say I can bench 600.  so with that said, I'd rather give up a few hundred pounds on the bench to look good too.


That's what I'm talking about.


----------



## SJ69 (Feb 16, 2004)

The best way to build a solid foundation of muscle for body building is to consistantly lift heavy weights.  Once you have something to work with then you can skulpt it through diet and specialty movements.
Go heavy or go home.


----------



## IronSlingah (Feb 16, 2004)

If we made a poll about if people would rather look like arnold and keep thier current strength or look like mark henry and be the strongest man in the world (not that mark henry is) i wonder which one would get more votes?


----------



## spartan (Feb 16, 2004)

Gr8 I agree with what your saying man. Sometimes bodybuilders are waaay to "girly". It is halarious seeing a 250 pound man fretting over a tan.


----------



## Vieope (Feb 16, 2004)

_


----------



## JerseyDevil (Feb 16, 2004)

I'm probably the oldest one here in this group (48).  No matter how hard I try, I'm not going to look like Arnold.  Shit, even Arnold doesn't look like Arnold anymore.  Strength is something I can still acquire, and in fact, I'm stronger now then at any point in my life.  So yes strength is important to me.  That said, no I don't want to look like Mark Henry.  You are missing the point that there ARE powerlifters out there that look fantastic, especially in the lower weight classes.

To expand on what I said before, my goal is to get the best physique I can at my age, but also increase my strength to its maximum potential.  I am lucky to have an absolutely gorgeous wife, so my ultimate goal isn't to build a physique just to get laid.


----------



## DanK (Feb 16, 2004)

I don't think it's a reasonable question when you ask something like... do you want to look like 'insert model here' and be weak or do you want to look like the monster in the closet on those cell phone commercials and be able to lift trucks, walk casually while your victims have to run to barely keep ahead of you, be able to take being blown up, shot hundreds of times, etc in stride so long as people don't bless their bullets or whatever... 

This is a body building forum, so naturally everyone here wants to look good (or at least reasonable), the question of where the balance between looking good and strength is the question, and for some people there is no reason they can't do both. I think most people also would want to avoid looking like a pro body builder (at least like the ones of today, as impressive as they are, they certainly aren't attractive). It shouldn't be assumed that just because someone places a lot of value on actual strength that they don't care about how their physique looks. Most powerlifters are probably fueled by the competition, and since they compete with hard numbers it's not necessary to maintain a good looking physique. Maybe a lot of those powerlifters were working on becoming pro body builders, and when their roids broke their dick and they became impetant, they decided looking hot was pretty pointless, and focused on being able to stop a train with one hand while casually untying the girl tied to the tracks with the other....


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Feb 16, 2004)

once you stop powerlifting tho, you lose strength very fast, because a lot of strength is from your nervous system

so its like if you dont have thick muscles then they are like not real errr

(that made no sense)....

What i want is to be at about ohhh...10 percent BF year round, and then stay at that BF% and just get stronger from there on out

so basically look almost like a body builder but be much stronger


----------



## CowPimp (Feb 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by IronSlingah *_
> If we made a poll about if people would rather look like arnold and keep thier current strength or look like mark henry and be the strongest man in the world (not that mark henry is) i wonder which one would get more votes?



This is a worthless question.  Even though some people focus on strength, their muscles will still grow, and their physique will become enhanced by the training.  The same holds true for those focusing on mass and physique.  They are still going to get stronger as a result, so those situations you presented are damned near impossible.


----------



## Flex (Feb 16, 2004)

They are both interelated to eachother......

the stronger you get, the bigger your muscles will get.....

but if i could only have one extreme or the other......
gimme Ronnie Coleman's size with Gary Coleman's strength instead of Gary Coleman's size and Ronnie Coleman's strength...


----------



## firestorm (Feb 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by JerseyDevil *_
> That's what I'm talking about.



Yea us Jersey people are well balanced individuals aren't we JD? hahaha


----------



## IronSlingah (Feb 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by CowPimp *_
> This is a worthless question.  Even though some people focus on strength, their muscles will still grow, and their physique will become enhanced by the training.  The same holds true for those focusing on mass and physique.  They are still going to get stronger as a result, so those situations you presented are damned near impossible.




Its a valuble question in relation to the thread. 

Heres a better question tho

Would u rather be 6ft 280 with 25% bodyfat and be an olympic caliber powerlifter or 6ft 195 with 6% bodyfat but not really impressive strength?

I made the powerlifter fat because at the olympic level they all are.


----------



## CowPimp (Feb 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by IronSlingah *_
> Its a valuble question in relation to the thread.
> 
> Heres a better question tho
> ...



I wouldn't want to be either one.  

These questions are pointless because most people aren't going for either extreme.  If they are, then their answer to the question is obvious.  Powerlifters would prefer your first option, and bodybuilders would prefer your second option.

Also, body fat percentage has nothing to do with the level of strength.  You can be really strong without much body fat just like you can have a lot of muscle mass without any body fat.

Why does everyone have to argue like one way is unquestionably better than the other way.  I want to be strong and have some muscle mass.  Is there something wrong with that?  Why do I have to choose one over the other?


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Feb 16, 2004)

then apparently you havent seen some of the guys in the 160 pound weight class for example...they have very low bf to stay in their weight class

As for me i would have to just go as big as possible, b/c its hard to be in a lower weight class when ur so tall...


----------



## PreMier (Feb 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> well that is way too far. that is also kindof the stereotypical powerlifter look, which is a category I don't see alot of new age guys fall under. If I had a chance to be 300lbs, even with a substantial amount of fat on me (maybe like 20% at the most) then I would be all over that shit personally. ha. thats just me thou. I just wanna be a real big strong man when its all said and done, silly little amateaur BB trophies will mean nothing compared to that. ya feel me?



Just curious... Do you find it odd that the worlds strongest man, DOES look like a bb, and isnt fat at all?

www.Pudzian.pl


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Feb 16, 2004)

and who would that be


----------



## PreMier (Feb 16, 2004)

Did you click the link there....  Thats him.  Mariusz Pudzianowski.


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Feb 16, 2004)

oooh, damn taht guy has perfect genetics...


----------



## Vieope (Feb 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by myCATpowerlifts *_
> oooh, damn taht guy has perfect genetics...



_ Correction. He has perfect diet and training plans. _


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Feb 16, 2004)

oh cmon vieope no one is perfect in anything they do, geez
i cant believe you would use the word perfect (wait a minute thats a microsoft program! i knew it ur bill gates in disguise!)


----------



## P-funk (Feb 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Vieope *_
> _ Correction. He has perfect diet and training plans. _




and perfect genetics.  I don't care how strict his diet is, how sound his training program is or how much steroids he is taking you can not look like that without perfect genetics.  Someone that has normal genetics can do everything that he can and will never look like him no matter how hard they try.


----------



## PreMier (Feb 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Vieope *_
> _ Correction. He has perfect diet and training plans. _



No matter how perfect someones diet and training is, you wont look like Mariusz without genetics on your side.

EDIT: damn p-funk!


----------



## Vieope (Feb 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by P-funk *_
> and perfect genetics.  I don't care how strict his diet is, how sound his training program is or how much steroids he is taking you can not look like that without perfect genetics.  Someone that has normal genetics can do everything that he can and will never look like him no matter how hard they try.



_ How can someone knows if somebody has perfect genetics or is normal ? Just because somebody achieved the goal? _


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Feb 16, 2004)

OK! maybe not perfect, but you have to agree that they are better than 99.9999999 percent of the rest of the world


----------



## P-funk (Feb 16, 2004)

Look at him.  he is natrually a big guy before he even lifted weights or did any anabolics.  He has a  geneticly large structure and frame.  It is like most bodybuilders.  Look at pictures of them when they were teens and most of them were structuraly big.  It is genetics.


----------



## Vieope (Feb 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by P-funk *_
> Look at him.  he is natrually a big guy before he even lifted weights or did any anabolics.  He has a  geneticly large structure and frame.  It is like most bodybuilders.  Look at pictures of them when they were teens and most of them were structuraly big.  It is genetics.



_ Good point. _


----------



## CowPimp (Feb 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Vieope *_
> _ How can someone knows if somebody has perfect genetics or is normal ? Just because somebody achieved the goal? _



Because they are able to acheive more strength or mass in comparison to others who use a similar training style and diet.  Also, if you are competing for national championships and doing well, then it's pretty safe to say you have good genetics...


----------



## Tha Don (Feb 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> its all about strength fellas, how an you not wanna lift heavy ass weights. Of course BB is important to me, but the strength is just as big, infact its a bigger goal for me personally. Powerlifting IMO is a much more respectable sport than BB by far. Much more manly of a sport.



I disagree

but then again I am a BB not a powerlifter, powerlifters probably see things differently but I'd never be a powerlifter, I thnk them guys r ugly

why look like Mark Henry, when you could look like Arnold or Brock or Cena?

You might have more strength but you wouldn't look as strong coz your muscles wouldn't be popping out from under a thin layer of BF

I just don't see that powerlifting look at all desirable, but with the BB look you look like a living superhero!

so its all about muscle for me, obviously strength is important too, but like another dude said I'd give up a few hundred pounds on my bench to have a chizeled waist n' look great

just the way I see it bro

peace


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Feb 17, 2004)

stereotype stereotype thats all yall do

You sound like a bunch of women who have never worked out in their life saying that ,"i dont wanna get bulky"
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?  Your like thatll never happen trust me

most of you who would try to be as big as possible wouldnt get past 250 even with that extra fat

so stop acting like ur gonna be 400 pounds or something, cuz it wont happen to you period


----------



## Chad Cena III (Feb 17, 2004)

This right here is the truest thing you will ever read.  You cannot get big w/o heavy weights bb or pwrlftr!  Show me a former Mr. O who couldn't bench 400 and squat 500 for reps.  The reason( besides gear)these guys are huge is because of huge weights.


----------



## IronSlingah (Feb 17, 2004)

Ok obviously you people are missing the point of this thread. The thread asks strength or muscle THATS why i had those examples and the examples have to be extreme since thats what the thread is about. BTW that guy pudzianosky isnt human so he dosnt count. I saw him on Met-Rx worlds strongest man and when he millitary pressed like 405lbs he just chucked it up like he was just stretching out also this guy has a 6 pack at like 300lbs wtf?


----------



## PreMier (Feb 17, 2004)

He is 6'2 275Lbs


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Feb 17, 2004)

tahts what i mean, perfect genetics...hes like the hulk

big, strong, defined


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Feb 17, 2004)

in fact...makes you wonder...is he on 'roids....
OR GAMA RAYS!!!!! MWAHAHAHA

I feel a poll coming on....gama rays or roids pick ur fave  LOL


----------



## Vieope (Feb 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by myCATpowerlifts *_
> oh cmon vieope no one is perfect in anything they do, geez
> i cant believe you would use the word perfect (wait a minute thats a microsoft program! i knew it ur bill gates in disguise!)






> _*Originally posted by myCATpowerlifts *_
> in fact...makes you wonder...is he on 'roids....
> OR GAMA RAYS!!!!! MWAHAHAHA



_ You have a beautiful mind, don´t you ?  _


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Feb 17, 2004)

Beautiful mind!!! that was a movie!!! Your just a big conspiracy arent you!!!



Actually, brains are nasty, didnt you ever see the Robo cop where they took that guys brain out and put it in a glass tube, his eyes were still attached!


Lol! my poll is up in the open section!  GO VOTE NOW!!

(seriously, i'd hate it if it got no posts )


----------

