# MonStar's Journal: Return to Westside!



## M.J.H. (Sep 20, 2004)

I know that I was doing good with my other journal, but I decided to go with a tried and true program like Westside for the next couple of months. Yes I am going to stick to this journal just like I did with my previous one. Don't make a big deal out of the new journal I am completely changing my training. 

I am going to be doing a basic Westside split, something along these lines: 

1- DE Bench
2- DE Squat/Deadlift
3- Rest
4- ME Bench
5- ME Squat/Deadlift
6- Rest

I am not going to put too much focus on exactly what I do. On DE day obviously I'll be starting off with some speed work. And on ME days I'll start off with a max-effort lift. Nothing too complicated at all. At this point I think, I am going to change my accessory work up very regularly. Most of it is going ot be just shy of failure, but not always. Depends on how I am feeling, honestly. 

My training volume is most likely going to be pretty high, just because I am still trying to drop some fat. We'll see how things go.


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## fantasma62 (Sep 20, 2004)

Mike, whatcha doing.....

I was wondering how long it would take and you actually had me going with the last journal...
You didn't have to start a new journal to just do Westside.  You should have just continued on with the other one.
You need to get past this need to start a new journal.  The OCD is strong...
Either way Mikey, good luck with this, SF will take you home...
Good luck bubba, may the Shwartz be with you.....


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## Jill (Sep 20, 2004)

Why couldnt you just post a thread in your current journal that you were changing your training program around?


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## M.J.H. (Sep 20, 2004)

*Tony:* Hey man, thanks for the post. I agree I can't wait for SF to start giving me advice with my routine. I am really looking forward to it, that's for sure. I decided to start a new journal because my goals are completely changing. Westside = training for strength primarily, hypertrophy and fat-loss second. My other journal was not directed to that goal that at all. 

*Jill:* Because it's a radical change in my training, almost completely the opposite of the training I was doing in my other journal. I could have kept that journal, but I preferred to start a new one.


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## DeadBolt (Sep 20, 2004)

Jill said:
			
		

> Why couldnt you just post a thread in your current journal that you were changing your training program around?


Its a mental thing, he changed his way of training so he has to change his journal.    Right there with ya man!

I see where your goin with it mike, good shat man keep at it and stick to the routine.  What ever you put your mind to I know you can do.  Make us proud and show some results from this routine, I'm sure SF will enjoy.  He is a killer guy and just makes my head go pop with the stuff he knows I'm sure you will do just fine with him.


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## Jill (Sep 20, 2004)

K boys


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## DeadBolt (Sep 20, 2004)

Jill said:
			
		

> K boys


It must be a guy thing b/c I'm the same way.


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## Jill (Sep 20, 2004)

I forgot something. *GO GO GO GO GO * checkout my new recipe in the recipe section. I know you have a sweet tooth like me...this is just great! For real


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## M.J.H. (Sep 20, 2004)

*DeadBolt:* Great that someone can relate! For whatever reason it's an absolute must that I create a new journal when I am radically changing my training. I am not sure why, it's not like it makes all that much of a difference. But I think just think its a large change that is important, etc. 

I am really looking forward to SF's advice with this Westside routine. This program he absolutely swears by. It was actually the conversation on AIM with him that inspired me to jump back to Westside. 

*Jill:* Must be a guy thing, who knows. I'll definitely take the time out to check your recipe. I am sure it's great, I have tried a few of yours in the past and they all tasted pretty damn good.


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## DeadBolt (Sep 20, 2004)

Jill said:
			
		

> I forgot something. *GO GO GO GO GO * checkout my new recipe in the recipe section. I know you have a sweet tooth like me...this is just great! For real


That looks pretty good, I have only tried a few of the recipes from the boards but I may just have to try this one heh.


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## Duncans Donuts (Sep 20, 2004)

They need to open a line in Vegas on how long each thread will last.


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## Sapphire (Sep 21, 2004)

Good luck with your new program!   
I am interested in Westside, just curious because I am a P/RR/S fanatic.    
GP tells me Westside is really a great program but more for power lifters as opposed to someone like me who is just looking for muscles in all the right places. 

I will be following your journal....    

What's DE and ME?


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## ncgirl21 (Sep 21, 2004)

Good Luck!!     Is your diet still going to be the same as the previous journal?


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## fantasma62 (Sep 21, 2004)

Mike, listen, don't sweat it.  

As long as you know what you have to do, it doesn't really matter how many journals you have.  Maybe what you need to do is to find out what makes Mike happy.  Once you find that, I know you will make a journal and yes, it'll be your last one.
Be good Mike....


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## M.J.H. (Sep 21, 2004)

*DeadBolt:* Yeah I have tried a few as well, bro. Some definitely turn out a lot better than others---that's for sure. We'll see how this one turns out. Sometimes they're gross if you leave out an ingredient but others turn out great no matter what. 

*Duncans Donuts:* LOL, I think you're going to be surprised bro. I did Westside for a while before, really enjoyed it. 

*Cyndi:* Actually Westside is for anyone who wants to develop their body, and at the same time develop strength. It's not necessarily at all for a devoted powerlifter. I am not a devoted powerlifter at all myself, I am simply more a bodybuilder who takes pride in his strength. I think you should get it a try! Jen did, and I am pretty sure that she really liked it. ME and DE stand for the specific days. ME = max-effort; DE = dynamic-effort. On max-effort days I'll start out with a max-effort lift where I'll work up to my 1RM. On my dynamic-effort days I'll start out with speed work for bench/squat/deadlift. 

*Andrea:* Hey there! Yes, my diet is going to be the same as my old journal. Basically just trying to keep binging to a minimum and eating clean for the most part. We'll see how things go. 

*Tony:* Good point, bud. I mean maybe it will take me 5 journal to finally get serious and stick to one but I am making progress. I know for a fact that I am. My last journal I kept for almost 2 weeks I think it was. That's much better than changing every other day, IMO.


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## fantasma62 (Sep 21, 2004)

The one request that I make is that I am allowed to poke fun at you once in a while with the journals.... 
Seriously though, you'll know when you get to your goal.  You're really the only one.... 




			
				MonStar said:
			
		

> *DeadBolt:* Yeah I have tried a few as well, bro. Some definitely turn out a lot better than others---that's for sure. We'll see how this one turns out. Sometimes they're gross if you leave out an ingredient but others turn out great no matter what.
> 
> *Duncans Donuts:* LOL, I think you're going to be surprised bro. I did Westside for a while before, really enjoyed it.
> 
> ...


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## gopro (Sep 21, 2004)

GP laughing his ass off at the irony


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## Mudge (Sep 21, 2004)

Dynamic Effort, Max Effort

I almost started a new journal myself recently, its kind of strange to have to dig back xx pages to see something new, + and - to sticking with a single or making a new. I did get a new logbook though recently


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## Sapphire (Sep 21, 2004)

Thanks Mike.. but I LOVE P/RR/S.  GoPro is my coach and my hero!   

BUT I will be following your progress!!!


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## M.J.H. (Sep 21, 2004)

*Tony:* You can say whatever you want bro, lol. I don't take much (if anything) seriously at all. 

*gopro:* Irony about what? 

*Mudge:* Thanks for chiming in man, appreciate it.

*Cyndi:* I'll be looking forward to you following my progress, and I appreciate it.


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## M.J.H. (Sep 21, 2004)

Tuesday; 9-21-2004

*DE Bench*

Good workout today, ran a little bit over an hour, not too bad though. Great to be training Westside style again. I feel like my triceps are going to explode from training this way, lol. We'll see how things go. So far, I am loving Westside. 

*Speed Bench Presses*
10 sets of 3 with 175

*Seated DB Presses*
3 sets of 3 with the 100's
2 sets of 8 with the 80's

*8" Lockouts*
4 sets of 2 with 375 
2 sets of 5 with 335 

*Tate Presses*
4 sets of 10 with the 60's

*Flat DB Flyes*
3 sets of 8 with the 70's

Speed bench today was pretty damn good, I honestly impressed myself with my bar speed. 175 was moving pretty damn quick. Moved onto some seated OH DB presses. Huge HUGE PR today! Really happy with my strength. I wanted to note that these seated presses I am getting the weight up myself and pressing them. No spotter, etc. The first rep is always the toughest. Moved onto some lockouts, good sets there. Triceps were beat. Finished up with some Tate presses and some flat flyes. Good overall workout today. 

Diet:
- MRP + 2% milk 
- banana
- V-12 preworkout
- whey protein postworkout 
- ground beef + garlic pasta 
- tuna salad sandwich
- cottage cheese + pineapple
- MRP + 2% milk
- 1/2 peanut butter sandwich

Sleep: 7 hours. 

Weight: 231 lbs. Heavy today, who knows why, I am not worried about it.


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## dianas05 (Sep 21, 2004)

Good luck with your training. If this is the way you like to train then that's what's important. I'll still be here no matter what you decide.


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## DeadBolt (Sep 21, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> I did get a new logbook though recently


Its the little things in life that keep us happy right mudge.   

Lookin good mike, keep at it!  Thats some serious weight with the 8" lockouts.

I am totaly clueless on westside theories, but whats the purpos of the dynamic lifting--just to change things up and shock the muscles into growing and getting stronger and gaining speed/overall bettering of the body?  Isn't thats a little dangerous though?


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 21, 2004)

Speed work sounds deceptive. You're not rattling out reps as fast as you possibly can, as the name implies. You lower the bar in a controlled manner, pause a brief moment on the chest and then explode up. You're basically training yourself to produce force more quickly. You push a bar loaded with 50-60% of your 1RM with as much force as if it was 100% of your 1RM. The faster you can move the weight, the better chance you have to push through a sticking point.

Hope that makes sense.

Good session Mike. Just stick to the model. Train your weak points, add the extra stuff in.


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## M.J.H. (Sep 21, 2004)

*Diana:* Hey there, thanks so much for the support, I appreciate it so much. I completely agree that liking the way you train is very important. So far I am loving Westside---it's definitely an enjoyable program that's for sure. 

*DeadBolt:* Hey man, thanks for the kind words. Honestly after the speed bench and the OH DB presses, my triceps were pretty damn exhausted. The lockouts really finished them off. I also want to note that the 8 inches does not mean 8 inches off of my chest, it refers to the distance the bar is traveling. In case there is any confusion.

*SF:* Thanks for explaining the theory behind speed training, because I certainly could not have explained it like that. Today I really felt like speed work was beneficial. Sometimes, though, I just feel like I am going through the motions. Today I really concentrated on bar speed, etc. Looking forward to tomorrow's workout.


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## chris mason (Sep 21, 2004)

Working on the strength again Mike?  

Your dumbbell presses are very nice.  

I had a good session today myself.  I set a couple of PRs.


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## M.J.H. (Sep 21, 2004)

*Chris:* Hey man, thanks for dropping by. Well actually I was just training basically for size I guess, and keeping my diet clean. Now I am still training for size, but I figured I might as well get stronger at the same time. Thanks for the comments about my DB presses, I have been very proud of them, because out of nowhere they shot up. I couldn't press more than the 70's for the longest time. And it was always so frustrating seeing BCC, and a few others throwing around the 90's or more. At least now I can keep up, lol. 

What PR's did you set today? I could use the motivation. Start a journal here bro!


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## dianas05 (Sep 21, 2004)

Just curious Mike, what is your bf%?


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## DeadBolt (Sep 21, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> Speed work sounds deceptive. You're not rattling out reps as fast as you possibly can, as the name implies. You lower the bar in a controlled manner, pause a brief moment on the chest and then explode up. You're basically training yourself to produce force more quickly. You push a bar loaded with 50-60% of your 1RM with as much force as if it was 100% of your 1RM. The faster you can move the weight, the better chance you have to push through a sticking point.
> 
> Hope that makes sense.
> 
> Good session Mike. Just stick to the model. Train your weak points, add the extra stuff in.



That sounds pretty kewl....

I know I have been doing p/rr/s for a while but one day I sure would love to try that.  It sounds interesting.  Do injuries occur frequently lifting in this manner, with such an explosiveness?


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## gopro (Sep 21, 2004)

MonStar said:
			
		

> *Tony:* You can say whatever you want bro, lol. I don't take much (if anything) seriously at all.
> 
> *gopro:* Irony about what?
> 
> ...



Maybe a month ago you wrote me and said..."Well, with all I hear about P/RR/S I guess I should finally really give it a try." Then you asked me advice about a split to get you going with it...and here it is once again you are using another program. THATS the irony as you have done this like 4 times now.


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## DeadBolt (Sep 21, 2004)

MonStar said:
			
		

> I also want to note that the 8 inches does not mean 8 inches off of my chest, it refers to the distance the bar is traveling. In case there is any confusion.


Aren't they you lower the bar 8inches from full extention, to keep focus on the tri's?  B/c the lower you go the more the back and chest come into play.  Or am I totaly wrong?


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## M.J.H. (Sep 21, 2004)

*Diana:* Hmmm, that's a little tough to say to be honest. For a while I was thinking about 10% but then again it is tough to say. I mean I can see my abs completely without a problem, but I still hold some flab around my lower abs and lower back and love handles. I have never really had it accurately tested.

*DeadBolt:* I have never heard of anyone getting injured doing speed work, but I am not sure. I definitely think that you should give Westside a shot though, it's a really great program. Proven over and over again to be effective. 

Okay, let me try and explain the lockouts a little better. First of all I pull a flat bench into the power rack, to do lockouts. I set the bar on the pins, and set the pins at the right height where I am moving the bar 8 inches to lockout. So I am not unracking the bar and coming down with it---I am pressing with the bar already in the bottom position on the pins. Make sense? 

*gopro:* Oh okay I see. Thanks for the support bud. If it's not positive you can keep it to yourself, thanks.


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## DeadBolt (Sep 21, 2004)

MonStar said:
			
		

> *DeadBolt:* I have never heard of anyone getting injured doing speed work, but I am not sure. I definitely think that you should give Westside a shot though, it's a really great program. Proven over and over again to be effective.
> 
> Okay, let me try and explain the lockouts a little better. First of all I pull a flat bench into the power rack, to do lockouts. I set the bar on the pins, and set the pins at the right height where I am moving the bar 8 inches to lockout. So I am not unracking the bar and coming down with it---I am pressing with the bar already in the bottom position on the pins. Make sense?



  Gotcha


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## Monolith (Sep 21, 2004)

You got me.  I really thought you were gonna stick with that last journal.  Guess i should know better, eh?


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 21, 2004)

DeadBolt said:
			
		

> That sounds pretty kewl....
> 
> I know I have been doing p/rr/s for a while but one day I sure would love to try that.  It sounds interesting.  Do injuries occur frequently lifting in this manner, with such an explosiveness?



The weight you're lifting is so relatively light, you'd have to do something really strange to hurt yourself. Everything except the explosion to lockout is controlled. I won't say nobody ever has been hurt, but nobody I've ever talked to or read about.


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## gopro (Sep 21, 2004)

MonStar said:
			
		

> *gopro: Oh okay I see. Thanks for the support bud. If it's not positive you can keep it to yourself, thanks. *


*

Well my witty friend, you HAD my total support more than once already and every time you showed none in return. Like I said, this is about the 4th time that you said its time for you to run with P/RR/S, and this is the 4th time you bailed. You fell under ridiculous peer pressure the first few times, and God only knows what happened this time. I can only imagine who talked you out of it this time.

Do I care if you use my program...not really, but its your character that bothers me, so don't tell ME about being positive or negative.

Good luck.*


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## M.J.H. (Sep 21, 2004)

*DeadBolt:* Okay man, great. 

*Monolith:* I was planning on sticking it out with the last journal, at the time. But things change, goals change, etc. Thanks for stopping by though, bro, appreciate it. 

*SF:* Thanks for the post man, appreciate you clearing this subject up. I have never heard of anyone getting injured from speed work. 

*gopro:* I am sorry if you felt like I insulted you by not giving your P/RR/S program a full shot---I mean I had every intention too and I decided not too. It seems that most of the feedback from your program is from newbies. No I do not want a P/RR/S discussion here in my journal. Nor did I even ask for you to post here in my journal. And I *especially* did not ask for to post anything negative. 

And I am not sure what you're talking about in terms of peer pressure? I didn't keep up with your program because I decided not to. Not because someone else decided for me. One again since you do not care, please keep your thoughts, and posts out of my journal.


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## gopro (Sep 22, 2004)

MonStar said:
			
		

> *DeadBolt:* Okay man, great.
> 
> 
> *gopro:* I am sorry if you felt like I insulted you by not giving your P/RR/S program a full shot---I mean I had every intention too and I decided not too. It seems that most of the feedback from your program is from newbies. No I do not want a P/RR/S discussion here in my journal. Nor did I even ask for you to post here in my journal. And I *especially* did not ask for to post anything negative.
> ...



Sorry, but I will post my thoughts right here in your journal, or I can start a whole thread about it if you'd prefer.

You did not insult me at all by not using my program...heck, its your loss. You had every intention to start my program when you were over at Wannabebig and when the "expert" mods over there got on your case about it, boom, you stopped. THAT is peer pressure which you fell victim to.

As far as the feedback being from newbies, that is possibly the most ridiculous thing I have heard in quite some time. P/RR/S was precisely developed for people that have been training for about half of your life. I developed it for MYSELF after reaching a plateau for about a year, after I had been training for about 12 years. P/RR/S allowed me to add another 35 lbs of muscle after all of that time. You can also go ask Tank, one of the more massive individulas on this site, and someone who has been training about 20 years what P/RR/S has done for him. Like I said, P/RR/S was developed for advanced lifters to get them and keep them growing...the fact that newbies do so well on it is b/c I tweak it for them to fit their needs better.

By the way, here is the PM you sent me last:

"Giving it a shot.   

What kind of split do YOU recommend? I want to make the most of the program. So basically I am going to take your advice 100% on the program? I have been doing push/pull/legs. But if you want I'll do something like:

1- chest/triceps
2- back/biceps
3- rest
4- shoulders/traps
5- legs
6- rest

Or even something like this: 

1- chest/shoulders
2- back/traps
3- rest
4- arms
5- legs
6- rest 

I mean I am leaving this up to you. Thanks man."

Ok, back to your journal...again, good luck.


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## Riverdragon (Sep 22, 2004)

This is fucking hilarious! I need some popcorn for this.  

Not trying to takes cracks at ya Mike but I think more than anything your journals are becoming comical. Maybe you should lay off them for a while? You don't need this shit. You're in great shape and your lifting is going good so why do you feel the need for this?


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## M.J.H. (Sep 22, 2004)

*gopro:* Start a new thread if you want, because I really would like to keep your thoughts out of my journal. I am not trying to have a P/RR/S discussion in here---or anywhere else for that matter. The WBB "experts" as you liked to call them completely ripped your program apart, and it was clear as day who had more credibility. Saturday Fever, PowerManDL, chris mason  and a few others from WBB completely tore the program a part, from an exercise science/philosophy perspective. That was all the convincing that I needed to drop the program. 

Once again, I do not want a P/RR/S discussion in my journal. Start a new thread somewhere else if it will make you feel better. 

*Riverdragon:* LOL, this it getting amusing for me as well. I am not sure why gopro would bother posting in my journal at all. I am not doing his program, nor did I ask for his advice or thoughts on the matter at all. Thanks for the support though, bro, appreciate it.


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## M.J.H. (Sep 22, 2004)

Wednesday; 9-22-2004

*DE Squat/Deadlift*

Wow, exhausting workout today. Definitely have to get back into the swing of 10 sets of speed squats, even if I am going very light. It's almost like a cardio session, especially since I am trying to move the bar as fast as possible. 

*Speed Box Squats*
10 sets of 3 with 245

*Hyperextensions* 
4 sets of 5 with 165

*Nautilus Leg Extensions*
4 sets of 12 with 260

*Support Rows*
2 sets of 5 with 260
2 sets of 10 with 220

*Nautilus Pullovers*
2 sets of 10 with 270

Speed work was pretty damn good. I have been experimenting a lot lately with my foot placement. I am not too crazy about a narrow stance or an extremely wide stance---and I am trying hard to do more a powerlifter style squat. After the speed squats I did some hyperextensions, which TOASTED my lower back, ouch. Finished my legs up with some leg extensions, not bad. For my lats I did some support rows and then some pullovers, good sets. I was exhausted. 

Diet:
- cottage cheese + pineapple
- V-12 preworkout
- whey protein postworkout 
- chicken salad wrap
- breaded chicken + sweet & sour sauce
- turkey & cheese sandwich
- ? 

Sleep: 9 hours.


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## gopro (Sep 22, 2004)

Riverdragon said:
			
		

> This is fucking hilarious! I need some popcorn for this.
> 
> Not trying to takes cracks at ya Mike but I think more than anything your journals are becoming comical. Maybe you should lay off them for a while? You don't need this shit. You're in great shape and your lifting is going good so why do you feel the need for this?



Nahhh, let him keep his journal. This is probably the 100th one he has done over the last few years, so he MUST need it. I just had to give him some 
sh%t. He knows what I said is true. His best bet at this point is to not respond and then I will just stay out of here because I said my piece and proved my point. But if he responds...then in the words of big Arnold..."I'll Be Back!"


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 22, 2004)

Stance doesn't define squatting like a powerlifter, so don't put too much thought into it. Find something comfortable. What you want to focus on is sitting back, not down. Keeping a solid arch in your back. Pushing out on your knees and feet. Pulling up and back with your shoulders. Pushing forward with your hips. Good session.


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## M.J.H. (Sep 22, 2004)

*gopro:* LOL, what difference does it make to you how many journals I have had? I have made great progress over the past few years, so isn't that all that matters? I am not sure where you come off with this attitude? Maybe because you're tired of Saturday Fever (who I invited to IM) putting you in your place over and over and over again? Whatever the reason, please keep the negative attitude out of my journal. Thanks again. 

*SF:* Okay great, sounds good. I am going to find a stance where going deep isn't at all uncomfortable. I agree that sitting back is definitely challenging for me, I guess because I am so used to just coming straight down with the weight. I'll have to take some more squatting videos and show them to you. That seems like the only way to really correct my squatting form.


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## gopro (Sep 22, 2004)

MonStar said:
			
		

> *gopro:* LOL, what difference does it make to you how many journals I have had? I have made great progress over the past few years, so isn't that all that matters? I am not sure where you come off with this attitude? Maybe because you're tired of Saturday Fever (who I invited to IM) putting you in your place over and over and over again? Whatever the reason, please keep the negative attitude out of my journal. Thanks again.



There's your first mistake...you couldn't leave well enough alone and now I am one tick away from removing your azz. My point is not how many journals you have had...I could care less if you have 1000! My point is that you, for the 4th or maybe 5th time said you were going to use P/RR/S (once even starting a journal about it at WWB, but you just couldn't handle the mods picking on you for it)...and NOW you even PM me about it and ask me advice and then boom...once again, not doing it. Who talked you out of it this time? SNF? 

Again, I really could care less IF you use my program as it is YOUR loss if muscle growth is what you are after. What set me off was this last time that you even PMed me about it, but once again, whimped out. I'm 100% sure that someone once again talked you out of it...another "expert." 

And as far as SNF putting me in my place   ...well, I'm still waiting for that to happen. Trust me, it never will.   

Anyway, just keep posting about your workouts until you start your next journal. Do not respond to this and just keep doing what you are doing. Then, you will keep my "negativity" out of your journal. K?


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 22, 2004)

1. No, I didn't and don't try to talk anyone out of anything.
2. Don't drop my name in arguments. If I have something to say, I'll say it, and I'd ask that you guys respect that.


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## Sapphire (Sep 22, 2004)

Hey Mike...

I am wondering if you will also post your diet (trying to change the subject now)     

You are right about ME being a newbie, so to speak, I only started training seriously 2 years ago, when I met and hired GP.  His program works for me, so I only have good things to say about it.      I had been lifting for over 5 years with very little success.  I only noticed improvements since P/RR/S.  I know I am not very impressive, but for me, it's a BIG improvement!!  

BUT in any case.... I hope whatever program you use, you are a huge success!!     

Cyndi


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## ncgirl21 (Sep 22, 2004)

And these are the days or our lives..................................



Anyways, just popping in to say hey!!     Looking good! What's V-12?


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## gopro (Sep 22, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> 1. No, I didn't and don't try to talk anyone out of anything.
> 2. Don't drop my name in arguments. If I have something to say, I'll say it, and I'd ask that you guys respect that.



Sorry to have involved you so unscrupulousy in this major scandal SNF. I did not mean to impose on your celebrity. You hold so much power and wisdom that adding your name just lent more excitement to this whirlwind. I am glad to hear that you did not try and talk Mon out of P/RR/S, and will continually wonder who did??? For the 4th time...a mystery that MUST be solved! 

Nahhh, not really...ok, back to the journal...


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## chris mason (Sep 22, 2004)

I can virtually guarantee no one talked him out of anything.  Mike has ALWAYS felt compelled to switch routines AFTER asking for help with a million PMs.  

He realizes this and is always polite about it (nearly).  He knows it is a weakness or flaw he has, but it is very hard for him to overcome in my opinion.

I think with Mike you have to discern between action and intent.  I think Mike has great intentions but cannot always follow-through with action.  To me the intent is more important than the action in MOST cases.

All of that said, you really can't argue with the results. He is weighing a very hard 230 lbs and his strength is excellent.  Whatever he has done has most assuredly worked for him.  

I like Mike and think he is a good guy who will just drive you nuts from time to time.


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## gopro (Sep 22, 2004)

chris mason said:
			
		

> I can virtually guarantee no one talked him out of anything.  Mike has ALWAYS felt compelled to switch routines AFTER asking for help with a million PMs.
> 
> He realizes this and is always polite about it (nearly).  He knows it is a weakness or flaw he has, but it is very hard for him to overcome in my opinion.
> 
> ...



Well, I actually don't want to take up too much more space in his journal with this stuff, but he actually admitted to me that the pressure from certain individuals over at WBB stopped him from using P/RR/S the first couple of times. I can post the PM, but I won't.

As far as his results go, I think they are excellent and I wish him the best of luck in achieving more, no matter what program he uses. This latest incident just finally got under my skin as I purposely came into the journal section to see how he was doing with my program and then found that he went to Westside. Had he not gone through the effort to PM me and ask for my help I probably wouldn't have cared.

Anyway, enough has been said and hopefully he will just go on with what he is doing.


----------



## chris mason (Sep 22, 2004)

He hasn't been on wbb for at least a year now???


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## Monolith (Sep 22, 2004)

I have a brown dog.  His name is brownie.


----------



## fantasma62 (Sep 22, 2004)

Herein lie my questions.

Why in the hell would the WBB people be pressuring him?  Why the hell does Mike let people "in the internet" pressure him?  What the hell is WBB?  
If this is in fact the case and they have been pressuring you to do X or Y, then I think that those people are worthless, just because they pressure a kid into doing things instead of letting him do what may or may not fit him on his own terms.  
Also, Mike, and don't take it the wrong way, but if you are letting people pressuring you into doing things, you don't have a very strong personality.  Nope, I am not trying to insult you please...What I mean is that you have probably not yet developed a strong personality to tell people that NO, you are not going to do anything that you don't want to do...However, if you have not in fact been pressured, then please delete the above lines...

Mike keep on working hard in Westside and continue succeeding.  I am not going to defend P/RR/S, I think you have read enough and I am not going to defend Westside because, again, they don't need to be defended.  There is enough written out there.  I have certainly read both and have chosen what I am doing now.  What you need to do is stick it out and continue working hard on you.  Forget about today and what has been written, stay the course and don't veer unless you see that you are getting no results with Westside, then you do what you have to do...Either way, good luck and continue working hard, you'll be allright kid...


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## Mudge (Sep 22, 2004)

fantasma62 said:
			
		

> What the hell is WBB?



WannaBeBig message board.


----------



## fantasma62 (Sep 22, 2004)

Thanks Mudge.....


----------



## M.J.H. (Sep 22, 2004)

*gopro:* First of all, no one pressured me into anything. I have no idea at all what you're talking about. Like Chris said, I have been jumping from program to program for years now, it's nothing new. With that being said, don't take me not sticking to your program personally, because it's a common thing for me to change programs on a weekly (or even daily, lol, basis). 

*SF:* I actually brought your name up first, sorry about that bro. 

*Cyndi:* I actually do post my diet on a daily basis if you scroll down my journal entry. I list everything that I eat throughout the day. I am glad that you have found great results with P/RR/S, that's great. I wish you the best of luck with your training and hopefully you'll go far with P/RR/S. I can't really say much about it---since I have never given it a shot. In the future I might give it a full run through, I am not sure at this point. Thanks for the support, though, appreciate it! 

*Andrea:* Hey there, thanks for stopping by, lol. Tons of drama in my journal. Anyway V-12 is a product by SAN, it's actually just a creatine product. I really like it because its sugar and calorie free, and tastes pretty damn good, too. 

*Chris:* Hey man, I appreciate you chiming in here. You honestly probably know me better than anyone on this site. Just because you know me from a few years ago when I first joined at WBB. So like you said, I just have this OCD about changing my training/diet/journal all the time. It's not a habit that I am proud of, but it is a habit and still affects me to this day. I feel like I am starting to get better at it, but again it's tough. 

But I also feel that you're 100% right on when you say my intentions are never bad, because they aren't. I didn't mean to personally insult gopro by dropping his program. Nor did I mean to personally insult SF when I dropped Westside the last time. And I didn't mean to personally insult you when I was back at WBB you put together a program for me. And you're right I haven't posted on WBB for over a year now. By the way,  I have no idea how binging and changing programs actually has given me the size/strength I have. I can't imagine what would happen if I actually stuck to something, both diet and training wise. 

*Monolith:* LOL.

*Tony:* I am never pressured into anything bro. No one EVER tries to convince me that their program is great. SF never has, gopro never has, no one ever has. Everyone just talks about their personal experience and opinion with it---that's all. And it's just an obsessive compulsive thing for me to randomly change my training, diet, etc. I have been doing it for years now. Chris can testify that back on WBB I used to change my program all the time. Always looking for something new or better so to speak. Westside was probably the program that I ended up sticking to for the longest period of time. 

*Mudge:* Thanks for stopping by, and clearing that up.


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## chris mason (Sep 22, 2004)

To answer your earlier question Mike, I have been doing hang cleans followed by strict presses as of late and various types of deadlifting.  I now train completely RAW, no belt, nothing.  Performing deads with no belt is an interesting experience.

I have also been experimenting with different grips on the deadlifts.  I have been using a "hook" grip.  The standard hook grip involves an overhand grip where you wrap your thumb with your index and forefinger.  This is a grip used quite often by Olympic lifters.  

Yet another grip is a curl grip with a hook.

Anyway, I hit a PR on the standard hook grip RAW deadlift (standard stance) and on the hang clean and press.


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 22, 2004)

> Nor did I mean to personally insult SF when I dropped Westside the last time.



You didn't insult me at all. I've known you a while, I know how you get from time to time. Never took it personal though. Friends are friends.


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## Wannabebig.com (Sep 22, 2004)

Lol. Mike, Mike, Mike, I see you're still changing routines like their dirty underwear. No worries though, you seem to be getting bigger and stronger which is what counts, right?


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## Mudge (Sep 22, 2004)

chris mason said:
			
		

> I have been using a "hook" grip.  The standard hook grip involves an overhand grip where you wrap your thumb with your index and forefinger.  This is a grip used quite often by Olympic lifters.



I heard its pretty common with the big deadlifters right now, wouldn't know statistics though.


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## fantasma62 (Sep 22, 2004)

MonStar said:
			
		

> *gopro:* First of all, no one pressured me into anything. I have no idea at all what you're talking about. Like Chris said, I have been jumping from program to program for years now, it's nothing new. With that being said, don't take me not sticking to your program personally, because it's a common thing for me to change programs on a weekly (or even daily, lol, basis).
> 
> *SF:* I actually brought your name up first, sorry about that bro.
> 
> ...


Hey Mike, all is good, I will however continue ragging on you once in a while...I am glad you're ok then.....
Disregard questions, personality analysis, and the whole shabang......


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## chris mason (Sep 22, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> I heard its pretty common with the big deadlifters right now, wouldn't know statistics though.


Really?  I don't know of one person who uses it currently.  Granted, I only know a few but I know some of the big ones and they use mixed grips.  

I'm not accusing you of misrepresenting, I have just never seen it.  Can you name someone specifically?


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## Mudge (Sep 22, 2004)

Nobody big, just an older guy who is giving me a little advice. He explained the grip and its Olympic roots, and explained that it was gaining popularity as a "virtual strap." I have some clips of this guy and he has some good lifts to his credit although he hurt his back some time ago, he does put up 585 for I believe 3 @ 307. I could ask about Andy Bolton since he is the big puller right now, I have the clip of his lift but its not exactly a closeup of technique.


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## gopro (Sep 22, 2004)

Well Mon, I said my piece and got my feelings off my chest. Maybe one day you will switch over to P/RR/S for a bit and maybe you won't. You are doing pretty well and that's all that matters. If you are satisfied with the way you have been gaining then continue switching around as you must. Faith and belief in the program you are using is often the most important thing, as the body will always respond better when you feel good about what you are doing, even if its not optimal.

Good luck...for real.


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## Monolith (Sep 23, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Nobody big, just an older guy who is giving me a little advice. He explained the grip and its Olympic roots, and explained that it was gaining popularity as a "virtual strap." I have some clips of this guy and he has some good lifts to his credit although he hurt his back some time ago, he does put up 585 for I believe 3 @ 307. I could ask about Andy Bolton since he is the big puller right now, I have the clip of his lift but its not exactly a closeup of technique.



Maybe i'm doing it wrong, but i dont know how in the hell people use that grip.  I tried it once a couple months back for SLDL's, and it hurt like a motherfucking bitch.  I mean, i was basically crushing my thumb with 275lbs.  I cant even fathom how people are doing it with 500lb deadlifts.


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## Mudge (Sep 23, 2004)

Mono, the point is not in feeling fruity and delicious, the point is making the lift at whatever the cost in pain endured.   I dont think anyone would need it with a 500 pound dead, 700 or 800+ is where I'd expect it to be seen.


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## chris mason (Sep 23, 2004)

Bolton uses a mixed grip in competition.  I had the opportunity to meet him at the Rise of the Dead meet in Orlando earlier this year.  I also was sitting in the press row for the meet and was about 5 feet from him as he was making his pulls.


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## chris mason (Sep 23, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Mono, the point is not in feeling fruity and delicious, the point is making the lift at whatever the cost in pain endured.  I dont think anyone would need it with a 500 pound dead, 700 or 800+ is where I'd expect it to be seen.


Actually, the hook grip is not as strong a grip as the mixed.  Olympic lifters use it because it is stronger than a standard double overhand and there is no way they could use a mixed grip.  

For powerlifting, I find that it is easier on my back than a mixed grip because it does not cause me to torque my lower back in the same fashion I do with a mixed grip.  That said, the hook grip is still a limiting factor.  My lower body can pull more than I can hold with the hook (I can also pull more with a mixed grip).  

I am steadily increasing what I can pull in this manner.

The fellow who remarked it hurts like a bitch is correct!  This is especially true in the beginning and when you push your limits.


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## Mudge (Sep 23, 2004)

I dont see why you couldn't use a mixed + hook grip, I expected no less actually, or at least hook for my left which is my weaker forearm.


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## chris mason (Sep 23, 2004)

You certainly could, but there usually isn't a need.


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## ZECH (Sep 23, 2004)

MonStar said:
			
		

> *gopro:*  The WBB "experts" as you liked to call them completely ripped your program apart, and it was clear as day who had more credibility. Saturday Fever, PowerManDL, chris mason  and a few others from WBB completely tore the program a part, from an exercise science/philosophy perspective. That was all the convincing that I needed to drop the program.


Please!!  Anyone who has been here several years knows the truth to this debackle. If you think they have so much more knowledge, then why don't you go to WBB? I don't know these guys and have nothing against them. Once again GP has done nothing but try to help and gets ripped for it. This same things happens time and time again. Someone invites friends to bash someone on this board. Personally I'm sick of it. I'm glad your in such good hands!


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## chris mason (Sep 23, 2004)

Hmmmm, I don't remember EVER bashing this particular program of GoPro's.  In fact, I am quite unfamiliar with it therefore I would have no comment on it.  

I have never told Mike to do anything other than when he asked ME for a routine.  Yep, I too have given him a routine that he did for about a day, but I am not losing any sleep over it.


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## JerseyDevil (Sep 23, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> There's your first mistake...you couldn't leave well enough alone and now I am one tick away from removing your azz.


I can't believe you threatened to ban Mike for voicing his opinion.  When I first came on this board Eric, I had the utmost respect for you.  I even supported you here and on AnabolicMinds after your defense of the VPX 'delivery' system that avoids first pass of the liver, which I now know is complete bullshit.  Your later assertion that you 'knew' it was bullshit but just wanted to show Jack that people weren't that stupid was pure comedy.

Now because you are a SuperMod, I guess you feel you can bully people with your ego.  IF YOU BAN MIKE, OR ANYONE BECAUSE THEY SIMPLY DON'T AGREE WITH YOU, then be sure to ban me too.  Cuz at that point you can take this website and shove it up your egotistical ass.


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## ZECH (Sep 23, 2004)

JD, I see where you are coming from, but just take a minute and forget the ph crap. GP has alot of knowledge, and has helped and is still trying to help people. He gets bashed for the simple reason of people not agreeing with him. That happens all the time with alot of different subjects. I've seen these same group of WBB or whoever come on this board for nothing but the sole reason as to discredit GP or just to argue long before you got here. This is not new. Now if I was GP I think I would have got ticked too. And if I would have been him, I would have done the same thing or worse. All he asks for is a little respect and I think Mods of any board deserve that. They put in alot of time for nothing. And when you continue to get bashed, it gets old quick. This board does tolerate alot...more than other boards, but there is a limit and I would hope that people remember this. Everyone is a guest here and Robert has the final say.
Chris himself a few post back said he did not remember bashing GP and I believe it. So that leads me to wonder if Mike is telling the truth? One of the two is not telling the truth.


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## M.J.H. (Sep 23, 2004)

> I can't believe you threatened to ban Mike for voicing his opinion. When I first came on this board Eric, I had the utmost respect for you. I even supported you here and on AnabolicMinds after your defense of the VPX 'delivery' system that avoids first pass of the liver, which I now know is complete bullshit. Your later assertion that you 'knew' it was bullshit but just wanted to show Jack that people weren't that stupid was pure comedy.
> 
> Now because you are a SuperMod, I guess you feel you can bully people with your ego. IF YOU BAN MIKE, OR ANYONE BECAUSE THEY SIMPLY DON'T AGREE WITH YOU, then be sure to ban me too. Cuz at that point you can take this website and shove it up your egotistical ass.


Jesus I can't believe you just posted this! 

I type out almost a WORD-FOR-WORD response but deleted it and kept it to myself, because I didn't feel like getting banned. I agree that gopro uses his moderator status to bully people around and convince everyone that his program is greatest thing since sliced bread. 

Thank you SO MUCH JD for bringing this up, excellent point. And very well said. 

I also am tossing this journal. Its 3 pages long with what 1-2 actual journal entries? That's pathetic. I asked gopro POLITELY over and over again to not fill up my journal with his opinions on my training, etc. And of course, he has no respect for anyone. He could have easily started a thread somewhere else.




> Chris himself a few post back said he did not remember bashing GP and I believe it. So that leads me to wonder if Mike is telling the truth? One of the two is not telling the truth.


Chris had nothing to do with bashing gopro's program at all. It was a group of members at WBB that tore the program apart. Guys who do not post here at all. If it matters that much to you I am sure that I could find the thread over at WBB and post a link to it. I believe (if my memory serves me correctly) that Matt (PowerManDL) was the main person arguing against gopro. And to those who know Matt, they know he's a training and exercise science guru much like Saturday Fever.


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## Arnold (Sep 23, 2004)

MonStar said:
			
		

> *gopro:* The WBB "experts" as you liked to call them completely ripped your program apart, and it was clear as day who had more credibility. Saturday Fever, PowerManDL, chris mason  and a few others from WBB completely tore the program a part, from an exercise science/philosophy perspective. That was all the convincing that I needed to drop the program.



I am confused, here you say that you dropped gopro's program because the "wbb experts" tore it apart and that convinced you. 

Yet, earlier in this same thread you said that you stopped the program on your own will, and I quote you: 

"And I am not sure what you're talking about in terms of peer pressure? I didn't keep up with your program because I decided not to. Not because someone else decided for me."


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## M.J.H. (Sep 23, 2004)

Robert, once again this is getting out of hand, but let me explain. I was going to give gopro's program a shot a few times, actually. Once back when I used to post at WBB. And I posted at WBB what do you think of P/RR/S. And all of the feedback was extremely negative. So I decided to drop the program. (peer pressure, as gopro likes to think of it)

Then this most recent time I decided to drop the program just because. I don't have a reason why, honestly. Just fell under typical OCD.


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## chris mason (Sep 23, 2004)

Hey, why didn't you put me into guru status?


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## Arnold (Sep 23, 2004)

MonStar said:
			
		

> I agree that gopro uses his moderator status to bully people around and convince everyone that his program is greatest thing since sliced bread.


you know what is funny, gopro has never banned anyone on this board even though he has the power to.





> Chris had nothing to do with bashing gopro's program at all. It was a group of members at WBB that tore the program apart.


dude, you really should start reading your previous posts, see my above post where I quoted you, chris mason was in your list of wbb experts that ripped gopro's program apart.


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## chris mason (Sep 23, 2004)

I have gotten into arguments with GoPro in the past, but it had NOTHING to do with this program being mentioned.  That was also a VERY long time ago on wbb.  

Just to be very clear, I have never bashed his program (not sure of the correct name) that we are discussing.


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## Arnold (Sep 23, 2004)

from a bodybuilding stand point I do not see how his program could be bashed?


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## chris mason (Sep 23, 2004)

I don't suppose I do either since I know nothing about it.  If it contains the priciples of progressive resistance combined with sufficient recovery it would be a pretty decent program.


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## chris mason (Sep 23, 2004)

One more thing about me.  It was until only the last couple of years that I thought training to failure was optimal.  I no longer think that.  I suppose I have seen the error of my ways in that respect.


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## Monolith (Sep 23, 2004)

I just took Brownie for a walk.  He pee'd on a telephone pole.


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## ZECH (Sep 23, 2004)

chris mason said:
			
		

> One more thing about me.  It was until only the last couple of years that I thought training to failure was optimal.  I no longer think that.  I suppose I have seen the error of my ways in that respect.


Many people learn this through years of trial and error!


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## chris mason (Sep 23, 2004)

Well, let me say this, training to failure took me to a very respectable level of size and strength (which is what made me to hooked in retrospect).  That said, I finally realized that to train as often as I wanted to and to progress to a new level of strength (specifically) I needed to change things around.

I have been training for 17 years, about 15 of those to failure with low volume.


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## ZECH (Sep 23, 2004)

Chris how old are you? I am alot the same way. It only got me sore joints @40!


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## fantasma62 (Sep 23, 2004)

Hey guys, I think that this is getting out of hand. I came to this board to help myself get better and at the same time, help others in whatever I could, however, this is simply becoming a pissing contest.

In my experience with Gopro, he's been nothing but helpful towards myself and others. I have read SF's information and he's also been nothing but helpful to others.
I think it is unfair that the people at WBB decide to rip Gopro's program and pass theirs as the end all, best in the world. There is no best in the world. If I want to find the best in the world, I go to see what Arnold did (Bunch of big books out there for sale). Go see what Ronnie Coleman does, Yates...Gopro's is not the end all and Westside is not the end all. Heck, I don't do the Westside system, and I don't rip it, in fact, I applaud them because their system works for them and they have made it work for others....
Let me ask you Mike, it may not sound to you like there was peer pressure from the folks in WBB, but there was, and it was brought on by you. You asked what they thought of the program, what do you expect that they are going to tell you? They are going to put theirs up in a pedestal and P/RR/S down in the dirt. Go and ask Gopro what he thinks of Westside, and he'll do the same as the other guys. He'll put his ahead of Westside because he feels that his is the best. I hate to tell you kid, but you started something here all by yourself. I think the best thing you could have done is speak to each about their program and how it can help you and if said program attracts you, rather than asking them what is wrong with the other program.
Mike, you know I have nothing but respect for you, as I respect other members here. You have seen what I have posted for you, and you know that I have nothing but positive thoughts for you, but this started off wrong and I am sorry to say, you brought this on yourself.
I dont' think anyone is going to ban you here, because if Asspuncture would not get banned, Satan won't get banned.... 
P/RR/S is working for me. I am happy to be doing it. I did my research and found this workout to be better for my lifestyle and my family. I will not allow anyone to come to me and try to rip a workout that I am doing so that I can do theirs. In fact, nobody here will do that, unless you ask.
Mike start your new journal and get out of this one, this has become a WBB vs. IM war and it's not fair to those of us who are doing one or the other and to you. This is YOUR journal and you can do what you please with it. Close this now and start anew, this is the one time that you need to start a new journal, please.......


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## chris mason (Sep 23, 2004)

Wbb vs. IM war???

What are you talking about?

Listen, no one at wbb who devised the wbb programs ever said wbb's was the best.  That is pure fiction.  

It is a solid program as I am sure the one GoPro espouses is as well.


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## fantasma62 (Sep 23, 2004)

chris mason said:
			
		

> Wbb vs. IM war???
> 
> What are you talking about?
> 
> ...


Nope, you didn't get my point Chris....Mike's journal  is turning into a pissing contest.  I am going by what Mike is saying.  He says that he spoke to the folks in WBB and they ripped P/RR/S to threads....Then Gopro comes and defends his...Maybe you are right, not a war, I used the wrong word, but a pissing contest that will get nowhere...


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## Arnold (Sep 23, 2004)

why do people keep talking about people getting banned?

who do you any of you know of on this board that got banned?


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## fantasma62 (Sep 23, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> why do people keep talking about people getting banned?
> 
> who do you any of you know of on this board that got banned?


Robert, read what I said, I said I have never seen anyone getting banned and used Asspuncture as an example....


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## fantasma62 (Sep 23, 2004)

fantasma62 said:
			
		

> Nope, you didn't get my point Chris....Mike's journal is turning into a pissing contest. I am going by what Mike is saying. He says that he spoke to the folks in WBB and they ripped P/RR/S to threads....Then Gopro comes and defends his...Maybe you are right, not a war, I used the wrong word, but a pissing contest that will get nowhere...


I just noticed what I wrote, I meant to say P/RR/S vs. Westside war...but again there is no war....I take that back before someone suffers an attack....


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## Arnold (Sep 23, 2004)

oh, well I have seen the word "banned" in this thread a few times now. 

it is so rare that we ban anyone here, other than the spammers that join and make a bunch of advertising posts and leave.


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## ZECH (Sep 23, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> why do people keep talking about people getting banned?
> 
> who do you any of you know of on this board that got banned?


Didn't Maki at one point??


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## fantasma62 (Sep 23, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> oh, well I have seen the word "banned" in this thread a few times now.
> 
> it is so rare that we ban anyone here, other than the spammers that join and make a bunch of advertising posts and leave.


I agree 100%
My problem here is that my post was way too long now that I read it again and it becomes tedious to read....Still, after a long winded speech, I still say that Mike should start a new journal.  A real journal..


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## ZECH (Sep 23, 2004)

Yeah I don't think this is a WBB vs. IM thing. I think it is a personal issue between a couple. I'm sure there are good people at WBB just like here.


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## fantasma62 (Sep 23, 2004)

dg806 said:
			
		

> Yeah I don't think this is a WBB vs. IM thing. I think it is a personal issue between a couple. I'm sure there are good people at WBB just like here.


Chris and you are right, I made a huge mistake as I was making my long, tedious and long winded post....My bad...


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## Arnold (Sep 23, 2004)

dg806 said:
			
		

> Didn't Maki at one point??



I do not want to dredge all of that up it was 2 years ago, so lets just leave all of that in the past please.


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## ZECH (Sep 23, 2004)

fantasma62 said:
			
		

> Chris and you are right, I made a huge mistake as I was making my long, tedious and long winded post....My bad...


You just have to know the history.................


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## fantasma62 (Sep 23, 2004)

dg806 said:
			
		

> You just have to know the history.................


I miswrote.  I meant P/RR/S vs. Westside....


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## Mudge (Sep 23, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> who do you any of you know of on this board that got banned?



Golds_Soldier


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## M.J.H. (Sep 23, 2004)

> Hey, why didn't you put me into guru status?


LOL, I think that you and I both know that over the years you're beyond guru status.


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## Arnold (Sep 23, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Golds_Soldier



LMAO, why would you remember that fool?


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## topolo (Sep 23, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> why do people keep talking about people getting banned?
> 
> who do you any of you know of on this board that got banned?


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 23, 2004)

Look, I'll go heads up with anyone on what science says. And I know 99% ofnthe time I'll win. But we need to set the record straight.

Nobody said the routine was bad. We all happened to agree, based not on trainers, but on science that what gopro said was wrong. We NEVER said his routine was bad. But based on the arguments he and I have had here, and the same arguments he had at the forum, we have all generally not gotten along and not agreed.

chris and I do not get along. At all. We have been at each others throats more than once. We disagree on many things. I have been banned from WannaBeBig. I say that only to discredit the chatter that we're all out to get someone.

Despite the animosity here. Despite the fact that chris and I are not exactly friends...  

chris is more than fan of bodybuilding or powerlifting. He is a member. I challenge anyone ton find a time wqe disagree on something with regards to training. And please, prove us wrong. Show us another way. I am a big enough man to learn something new, as I'm sure he is.

But this rivalry that "seems" to be building? It has to stop. And it needs to stop now.


----------



## JerseyDevil (Sep 24, 2004)

dg806 said:
			
		

> JD, I see where you are coming from, but just take a minute and forget the ph crap. GP has alot of knowledge, and has helped and is still trying to help people. He gets bashed for the simple reason of people not agreeing with him. That happens all the time with alot of different subjects. I've seen these same group of WBB or whoever come on this board for nothing but the sole reason as to discredit GP or just to argue long before you got here. This is not new. Now if I was GP I think I would have got ticked too. And if I would have been him, I would have done the same thing or worse.


Regardless of VPX PH's, Westside vs P/RR/S, IM vs WBB, WBB vs Gopro, etc, etc, my ONLY beef was the fact Gopro uses the 'I'll ban you' card when he gets miffed.  This isn't the first time I've seen him do it. It doesn't matter if he actually bans them or not, but the threat.  I have never seen Robert, Mudge, Jodi, Atherjen, or yourself, threaten to ban someone just because they didn't agree with you.  Now P-funk is a different story  (j/k Patrick).


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## P-funk (Sep 24, 2004)

> Now P-funk is a different story  (j/k Patrick).



Damn JD, you beat me to it......I was reading the first few senteces of your post thinking....."oh yeah, JD is so banned by p-funk this time"  LOL....


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## Jenny (Sep 24, 2004)

Oh my  I saw 4 pages and was like "wow, Mike has really been working hard". Then I see this...


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## ncgirl21 (Sep 24, 2004)

I was going to say Good Morning Mike, but I don't even know who's journal this is anymore


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## fantasma62 (Sep 24, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> But this rivalry that "seems" to be building? It has to stop. And it needs to stop now.


Well said SF, this is a haven for people who want to improve themselves and to enjoy a different lifestyle.  Whatever routine you use, use it and enjoy it.  I am enjoying the one I use....

I will not bug you guys with this topic again and whatever I post, I will direct to Mike regarding his progress, whether it's in this journal or another.  If I can make a little difference without changing his mind, then I'll be happy....
Mike I really hope that you have not tuned IM out, it's a good place with a lot of good helpful people.  I also have a feeling that other boards like WBB or any other out there will probably be the same way too.
I wish you nothing less than the best and continue succeeding, you can do it buddy...


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## fantasma62 (Sep 24, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> Look, I'll go heads up with anyone on what science says. And I know 99% ofnthe time I'll win. But we need to set the record straight.
> 
> Nobody said the routine was bad. We all happened to agree, based not on trainers, but on science that what gopro said was wrong. We NEVER said his routine was bad. But based on the arguments he and I have had here, and the same arguments he had at the forum, we have all generally not gotten along and not agreed.
> 
> ...


Hey SF, you do know that "Culo" in spanish means "ass", right? You probably do.... 
I hadn't seen that and almost fell off my chair....


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## Sapphire (Sep 24, 2004)

I am sorry Mike for asking this in your journal.. but...

what is all the controversy about?  Isn't it possible that both programs, P/RR/S and westside are great and WORK?  I know for a fact GP has never said that Westside doesn't work, he told me himself that it was a great program for strength and powerlifting.
I mean have you guys ever seen GP????  I have, many times and I KNOW for a fact, he is massive.  I have also seen early BB pics of him and he is practically twice the size.

I am also a bit biased because GP is my FRIEND and takes his job VERY seriously.  He is a brilliant man, humble and hard working.  He does not take BBing lightly, it is his life, not his hobby. 

Anyway... I think this whole thing is silly.  The fact is P/RR/S works!  I am sure Westside does as well.


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## ZECH (Sep 24, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> Look, I'll go heads up with anyone on what science says. And I know 99% ofnthe time I'll win.


That's a pretty ballsy statement don't you think?? It's funny I've never seen your name mentioned in the elite group. So you think you rank right up there with Par, Patrick, Will Brink and such?


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 24, 2004)

I don't know who Par is. Or Will Brink. But I stand by what I said.


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## ZECH (Sep 24, 2004)

LOL! I think I know the answer know!


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## Jenny (Sep 24, 2004)

Mike, this journal is messed up, I think you need to start a new one


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## fantasma62 (Sep 24, 2004)

Jenny said:
			
		

> Mike, this journal is messed up, I think you need to start a new one


I 2nd the motion....
By the way Mike, I hope you are still here....


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## M.J.H. (Sep 24, 2004)

> Mike, this journal is messed up, I think you need to start a new one


LOL, I agree. This journal is nearly 5 pages long and I have nothing in it at all. It's a bunch of disputing. Help me pick a new name for my journal Jenny.


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 24, 2004)

The irony is great. We encourage you to keep a journal, and then we trash it like rock stars in a hotel room.


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## fantasma62 (Sep 24, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> The irony is great. We encourage you to keep a journal, and then we trash it like rock stars in a hotel room.


   

Hey Mike, how about, "This is my last journal ever" ?
I told you I'd be ragging on you once in a while......


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## Riverdragon (Sep 24, 2004)

Maybe you should go undercover on your next journal. Nah, that wouldn't work. Hmmm... Do you really need a journal Mike? I mean seriously, I bet you would do much better without one. What's the purpose of a journal anyway? If it's to help keep you on track then I would go out on a limb and say it's not working. Just keep doing what you're doing, you don't need to document it all. On the other hand, I think there are alot of us that would miss reading your journals.


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## gopro (Sep 24, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> Look, I'll go heads up with anyone on what science says. And I know 99% ofnthe time I'll win. But we need to set the record straight.
> 
> Nobody said the routine was bad. We all happened to agree, based not on trainers, but on science that what gopro said was wrong. We NEVER said his routine was bad. But based on the arguments he and I have had here, and the same arguments he had at the forum, we have all generally not gotten along and not agreed.
> 
> ...



The only way you could EVER learn something new is if you read a study about it in a journal that you like or in a textbook you read...AND that is ONLY if you believe in the person that wrote said article or book. So, you will ONLY LEARN from those that you already believe in.

You were a child when I started training and I have about 100 X more experience than you training people from every conceivable walk of life with basically any and every goal...strength, speed, sports, bodybuilding, rehab, etc, etc. I have been living this stuff for half of my entire life and my "lab" is the gym.

Trust me, I am just like you and love to read the studies, the texts, and I took anatomy, physiology, kinesiology, genetics, blah, blah, blah in my college years, and split my time between the physical and the mental/emotional, as the other half of my schooling was basically in psychology. This is another HUGE area that I apply to my programming in terms of training each individual, and in the creation of my routines.

So, everything that I do has a scientific base, even if its not the base that YOU agree with. There are millions of scientists and not all of them agree with eachother (and neither do 95% of the studies on various subjects) in many of the same areas. This is where "application" and real world experience takes over. I have come to believe that people should do no more than about 7-10 sets for large bodyparts at any workout. But, if someone told me that they thrive on 50 sets, and have the physique to back it up, how can I argue. I might tell him he would do even better on just 10 sets...but if he tried it and it didn't work for him, what can I say?

Even though I know my ideas are scientifically sound, as I have studied just as much as you my arrogant friend, I some times need to go "outside" of what the books say, b/c what happens in the real world does not always agree...sorry, its true.

And the first statement that you made above is so ridiculous and conceited that I can't believe you typed it! I guess since you are right 99% of the time when it comes to science, you must be amongst the elite trainers in the world.

You have absolutely no clue what my methodologies are capable of. Bringing myself from 125 lbs to 273 at one point...and a bench of 65 lbs x 1, to an eventual max of 495...drug free...is just an example.

Oh well, enough...I have things to do!


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## gopro (Sep 24, 2004)

JerseyDevil said:
			
		

> Regardless of VPX PH's, Westside vs P/RR/S, IM vs WBB, WBB vs Gopro, etc, etc, my ONLY beef was the fact Gopro uses the 'I'll ban you' card when he gets miffed.  This isn't the first time I've seen him do it. It doesn't matter if he actually bans them or not, but the threat.  I have never seen Robert, Mudge, Jodi, Atherjen, or yourself, threaten to ban someone just because they didn't agree with you.  Now P-funk is a different story  (j/k Patrick).



Sorry sport...you unfortunately are speaking with your head in you butt. I only "threaten" to ban someone if the are disrespectful and heading down a bad path. I have never banned anyone b/c I nip it in the bud with a warning and that usually takes care of it. Sometimes these "instances" have more involved with them than you may know about. Disagree with me all you want, but be respectful and don't go over the top with your words and all is fine.


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 25, 2004)

Welp, I'll tell you what. *EVER* prove me wrong, or show me that I'm wrong scientifically, and I'll gladly say so. You know dg went and  dropped name. Big deal.

I'm not knocking what you did in school. But I guarantee you never learned in school how to isolate a "so-called" upper chest.

I have never knocked you as a person or a trainer. I never said "That guy gopro is fulla shit and a real son of a bitch." What I said was, "I can top 99% of you in science." And I won't back down from that.

I'm sure you've trained longer than I've lived. I don't doubt it. I've never said you're stupid or wrong. I've challenged your science. Beat my science. That's my only challenge. I never said, "Beat SF" or "Beat whatever."

It's too bad you keep using the whole "trainers I believe" bit too. If you took time to notice, I don't agree with Dr. Siff a lot of times. I don't agree with those "trainers" as you call them. I agree with science.


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 25, 2004)

Hell, the more I read this thoe more pissed I get.

1) I have never said a thing about your program.

2) Explain, with science, how you can work this mythical upper chest.

We can continue tomorrow-ish. I won't be back until Monday though.


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## JerseyDevil (Sep 25, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> Sorry sport...you unfortunately are speaking with your head in you butt. I only "threaten" to ban someone if the are disrespectful and heading down a bad path. I have never banned anyone b/c I nip it in the bud with a warning and that usually takes care of it. Sometimes these "instances" have more involved with them than you may know about. Disagree with me all you want, but be respectful and don't go over the top with your words and all is fine.


Ok 'sport', exactly how was Mike being disrespectful? Seems to me you were the one that kept at him. You started the whole thing with "GP laughing his ass off at the irony", then kept badgering him about why he dropped p/rr/s.... for what, the fourth time?  We all know Mike changes programs about as often as most of us do laundry , nothing new there. If anything YOU are the one that should have been warned.  He respectfully asked you to stop posting negatives in the journal and you didn't respect that wish.  I noticed how you conveniently deleted the reference to 'removing' him.  If you were so clearly in the right, then why did you feel the need to delete it?  

That said, I do apologize for flying off the handle.


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## P-funk (Sep 25, 2004)

this is by far the most exciting journal I have ever read.


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## M.J.H. (Sep 25, 2004)

> Ok 'sport', exactly how was Mike being disrespectful?


I was not disrespectful at all, not in the least. Once again gopro flipped out because not everyone loves his program. And he uses his authority as a moderator to threaten to ban people. Moderators should never threaten to ban anyone. Unless they're, like Robert said, advertising, etc.


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## gopro (Sep 25, 2004)

MonStar said:
			
		

> I was not disrespectful at all, not in the least. Once again gopro flipped out because not everyone loves his program. And he uses his authority as a moderator to threaten to ban people. Moderators should never threaten to ban anyone. Unless they're, like Robert said, advertising, etc.



The disrepect comes into play when you PM someone for help, and they take the time to, and then they are ignored. THAT is disrespect and it has happened with you and I more than once.

And there is nobody that ever USED my program that has been unhappy with it. I have yet to receive feedback that was not positive. However, I would not mind if someone told me it did not work for them if they used it correctly for a reasonable period of time. However, for ANYONE to say that it is "not good, or will "not work," without ever having used it, is where I have a problem.

You are young, and haven't fully learned what respect is. You are just lucky that people on the boards have tolerated alot of you behavior.

I have again, never banned anyone yet AND only "threaten" to do so, if they cross a line. There is a reason that there are moderators and that one of their "powers" is to remove or ban a person from the site if they see fit. If I were to only ban a person for disagreeing with me then SNF would have been gone long ago.


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## gopro (Sep 25, 2004)

JerseyDevil said:
			
		

> I noticed how you conveniently deleted the reference to 'removing' him.  If you were so clearly in the right, then why did you feel the need to delete it?



You mean this, on page two my friend, which is still up there...

"There's your first mistake...you couldn't leave well enough alone and now I am one tick away from removing your azz."

Never deleted...on page 2 in plain site.


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## gopro (Sep 25, 2004)

JerseyDevil said:
			
		

> Ok 'sport', exactly how was Mike being disrespectful? Seems to me you were the one that kept at him. You started the whole thing with "GP laughing his ass off at the irony", then kept badgering him about why he dropped p/rr/s.... for what, the fourth time?  We all know Mike changes programs about as often as most of us do laundry , nothing new there. If anything YOU are the one that should have been warned.  He respectfully asked you to stop posting negatives in the journal and you didn't respect that wish.  I noticed how you conveniently deleted the reference to 'removing' him.  If you were so clearly in the right, then why did you feel the need to delete it?
> 
> That said, I do apologize for flying off the handle.



As to the rest...I explained his disrespect in a post above and I stand by it. Trust me, if you were an expert in tennis and someone kept telling you that they want to utilize your serving technique, and then even asked for personal help with it on several occassions...bu then, every time you see them playing tennis they are using someone elses technique, you would get quite annoyed and find it disrespectful. Had he never PMed me for personal help I would never had said anything, but he did...here and at WBB. Also, it bothers me that he allowed himself to be convinced by others that my program is not good, or sound scientifically     rather than using his own mind and seeing for himself.

By the way...your apology is accepted and I feel there is no reason for bad blood between us.


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## gopro (Sep 25, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> Welp, I'll tell you what. *EVER* prove me wrong, or show me that I'm wrong scientifically, and I'll gladly say so. You know dg went and  dropped name. Big deal.
> 
> I'm not knocking what you did in school. But I guarantee you never learned in school how to isolate a "so-called" upper chest.
> 
> ...



Do you have reading comprehension issues, because you obviously are not "getting" what I say...

-Science is not the end all be all because...
(1) It is often not replicable
(2) Things happen in the real world that go agaist what science teaches us
(3) Studies can be skewed by the people in control (consciously and unconsciously)
(4) Scientists themselves constantly disagree with eachother on the same subject, so who YOU listen to is a personal choice.

*Here's a beautiful example of one of the above...I just read a study regarding myostatin, which most know is responsible for limiting how much muscle we can grow. In the study, the trainees involved were put on a program and gained alot of muscle. The researchers checked levels of various hormones and one thing they found was that myostatin levels went UP! (Which by the way is the opposite of what has happened in some other similar studies). The researchers were completely perplexed and could not figure out how so much muscle was gained with myostatin going up. They could not give a scientific reason why this happened and could not explain it.

Thus, I will repeat...this is why I sometimes need to go outside the realm of science in order to get real answers.

As far as you topping everyone when it comes to science...even if that were true, which it is not, your undying devotion to it, is what would be your limiting factor in being a truly successful trainer if you chose to be one.

Oh, and I don't think you are a son of a bitch either. Narrow minded, arrogant, and conceited, yes, but probably a nice fellow.


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## chris mason (Sep 25, 2004)

You don't need to go beyond the realm of science to figure out how muscle was gained with an increase in myostatin.  To be clear, what I am saying is that part of the scientific method involves rational and intelligent thought.  Obviously, the myostatin protein is not the only controlling factor to muscle growth.  I don't think you need to go beyond science to ascertain that fact.

I do agree that experience and empirical observation are excellent sources of information and the excessive reliance on studies which many seem fond of on the internet is not a foolproof manner of validating one's thoughts.  

To be frank, most people on the net don't have the ability to fully understand the ramifications of a given study and erroneously use the information from an abstract to "prove" their point.


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## Arnold (Sep 25, 2004)

chris mason said:
			
		

> You don't need to go beyond the realm of science to figure out how muscle was gained with an increase in myostatin.  To be clear, what I am saying is that part of the scientific method involves rational and intelligent thought.  Obviously, the myostatin protein is not the only controlling factor to muscle growth.  I don't think you need to go beyond science to ascertain that fact.
> 
> I do agree that experience and empirical observation are excellent sources of information and the excessive reliance on studies which many seem fond of on the internet is not a foolproof manner of validating one's thoughts.
> 
> To be frank, most people on the net don't have the ability to fully understand the ramifications of a given study and erroneously use the information from an abstract to "prove" their point.



nice post.


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## gopro (Sep 25, 2004)

chris mason said:
			
		

> You don't need to go beyond the realm of science to figure out how muscle was gained with an increase in myostatin.  To be clear, what I am saying is that part of the scientific method involves rational and intelligent thought.  Obviously, the myostatin protein is not the only controlling factor to muscle growth.  I don't think you need to go beyond science to ascertain that fact.
> 
> I do agree that experience and empirical observation are excellent sources of information and the excessive reliance on studies which many seem fond of on the internet is not a foolproof manner of validating one's thoughts.
> 
> To be frank, most people on the net don't have the ability to fully understand the ramifications of a given study and erroneously use the information from an abstract to "prove" their point.



The "going beyond the realm of science" thing was not meant in relation to this study. The study reference was made to show that not only do similar studies often conflict, but things happen that the scientists THEMSELVES cannot explain.


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## JerseyDevil (Sep 25, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> You mean this, on page two my friend, which is still up there...
> 
> "There's your first mistake...you couldn't leave well enough alone and now I am one tick away from removing your azz."
> 
> Never deleted...on page 2 in plain site.


My bad...  


			
				gopro said:
			
		

> I feel there is no reason for bad blood between us.


I agree completely.


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## JerseyDevil (Sep 25, 2004)

chris mason said:
			
		

> ... and the excessive reliance on studies which many seem fond of on the internet is not a foolproof manner of validating one's thoughts.
> 
> To be frank, most people on the net don't have the ability to fully understand the ramifications of a given study and erroneously use the information from an abstract to "prove" their point.


Isn't that the truth?


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