# PWO Shake Recommendations PLEASE. Want high carb, high protein, low sugar, low fat.



## Big G (Jun 29, 2007)

Taking CytoGainer at the moment. 580cal, 79carb(6g sugar), 54gprotein, 98%lactose free, 96% fat free(45cal fat). + Tastes Yummy!

Alternatives?


----------



## tucker01 (Jun 29, 2007)

PP
Oats or Oat bran
Cultured Yougurt
Skim Milk
Berries.
Milled Flax seeds.


----------



## Big G (Jun 29, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> TERRIBLE ADVICE!
> Oats or Oat bran - PROBLEM: Ingestion too slow. Want more rapid insulin spike.
> Cultured Yogurt/Skim Milk - PROBLEM: Low net protein utilization, high lactose (sugar) & slow protein digestibility. DOMS *drastically* reduced for me with CytoGainer (partially digested peptides, whey fractions [for IGF-1], BCAAs etc... v.fast acting!).
> Berries - PROBLEM: Simple carbs/sugar.
> Milled Flax seeds - PROBLEM: Flax seed oil increases estrogen. link



Next!


----------



## tucker01 (Jun 29, 2007)

How is it terrible advice.  That is a very ignorant statement.

PP or protein Powder Concentrate or Isolate whatever you prefer.

Oats will release an insulin spike.  Do some reading on Oats PWO.

Here is some reading on Skim Milk PWO



			
				Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> Gaahhhh... Milk is good PWO!!! Don't listen to the myths!!
> 
> To re-post some other posts I have made:
> Quote:
> ...



Berries are far from a simple sugar.
Milled Flaxseed are not flaxseed oil.

I am trying to be nice based on your rude response.


----------



## tucker01 (Jun 29, 2007)

You want feedback in future don't be a dipshit about things.


----------



## nni (Jun 29, 2007)

there is nothign wrong with oats post workout. it is a quality addition. per alan aragon, all of the studies done with glycogen replenishment were done on subjects who fasted, unless you are doing that, you dont need 60+ grams of simple carbs post workout.

oats are fine.

ideally i say a 50/50 split for carbs (slow fast post workout).

check out replenish, or at least read the extended write up for it.
aftershock recovery is also a good product.


----------



## Big G (Jun 29, 2007)

Ian... Chilll with the dipshit shit. I'm talking from personal experience here. Bodies are different (believe it or not!).

.5 cup oats + 1oz sliced almonds + .5oz dried bing cherries + .5oz dried peaches w/.75cup skim milk & a protein shake = 600 cal 45%carb,35%protein & 20%fat. As a PWO snack it does nothing for me. DOMS kills me and it's an hour or more before I start feeling my blood sugar coming back to normal. 

CytoGainer is like getting hit with a stick, plus the relief from DOMS is out of this world. I can't express how different it is for me. I can do the same workout one week apart, with CytoGainer anfd then without it and one week I'm fine and the next i'm in agony for 3days.

I must confess I didn't realize that the PP reference was for Protein Powder (I thought it was a typo - sorry! lol. brain-fart). 

Still... In my experience a proper meal doesn't do the job near as well as my CytoGainer shake. 

Have you read Nutrient Timing? If not, you should.


----------



## MCx2 (Jun 29, 2007)

Big G said:


> CytoGainer is like getting hit with a stick, plus the relief from DOMS is out of this world. I can't express how different it is for me. I can do the same workout one week apart, with CytoGainer anfd then without it and one week I'm fine and the next i'm in agony for 3days.
> 
> I must confess I didn't realize that the PP reference was for Protein Powder (I thought it was a typo - sorry! lol. brain-fart).
> *
> Still... In my experience a proper meal doesn't do the job near as well as my CytoGainer shake. *



 

Why change then?


----------



## Big G (Jun 30, 2007)

Just wondered if there were some alternatives. Cytogainer is a bit sweet really. I only switched to it this week and the sweetness is kind-of wearing on me. I don't really like stuff too sweet. I know I said it _Tastes Yummy _above, and it really isn't bad, but I wouldn't mind trying something else.


PS. IainDaniel - I did sound a bit dip-shit-ish in that post. Sorry about that. Chowing down on a bowl of oats in the changing room _is _a little impractical though, I think.


----------



## Flakko (Jun 30, 2007)

If you want low fat or fat free you can just mix whey protein with skim milk. There's nothing wrong with casein post workout as long as you get enough whey. In other words you could use 1 scoop of whey (23 or so grams of protein) with 12 oz of skim milk, which would be like 10 grams of casein. You can always add more if your protein needs are higher.
As for carbs you could use any berries like people just told you. Strawberries, cherries, etc... Any fruits low in fiber like bananas also. Specially if they are really ripe, they are almost pure glucose.


----------



## Big G (Jun 30, 2007)

Really ripe bananas... Ew! 

So is everyone here set on real food post workout? I find a shake so convenient. Fruit would probably get all bruised-up knocking around my gym bag. Oats aren't too practical either. 

I'd hoped, when I asked for PWO shake recommendations I'd get some PWO shake recommendations. Ah, well.


----------



## visionsect (Jul 12, 2007)

Hey all, I know this thread is a bit outdated, but I thought I might comment here. Big G...I think IainDaniel's response was a good suggestion. I believe what he was suggesting was to include the oats actually "inside" the shake, not having oats as a separate meal. I know post-workout, I take the oats, berries, whey protein, and the skim-milk, and mix them all together for a nice thick shake. Amazingly (for me), the oats were not really all that hard to get down the hatch

However, if the Cytogainer is working well for you, hit it up man! If it is too sweet, maybe try diluting it by using more liquid (water).
Keep it very real..haha


----------



## MCx2 (Jul 12, 2007)

Big G said:


> Really ripe bananas... Ew!
> 
> So is everyone here set on real food post workout? I find a shake so convenient. Fruit would probably get all bruised-up knocking around my gym bag. Oats aren't too practical either.
> 
> I'd hoped, when I asked for PWO shake recommendations I'd get some PWO shake recommendations. Ah, well.



That should be telling you something if _everyone_ is recommending real food. 

You got exactly what you asked for, you just don't like the answers.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 12, 2007)

Wow, I'm glad I didn't see this thread when it came out.  I would have gone apeshit on your ass  

Iain gave the *BEST *advice you can get regarding PWO and it would have been my recommendation as well. 

As far as flaxseed oil causing estrogen........that's such bullshit please have some facts to back it up and not some stupid health website.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 12, 2007)

what you do post workout is dependant on a variety of things......goals and the type of training output are two of them.  So the whole carbs post workout, no carbs post workout, etc.....it all depends on what you are trying to do.


----------



## sensamilia (Jul 12, 2007)

Well i thought the whole nutrient timing thing 4 hours after exercise was to get ur body t absorb as much carbs as possible so simplecarbs PWO folowed by more complex carbs an hour or 90 mins later wud be best for nutrient timing. So if u eat complex carbs PWO then there wud be no need to eat  60-90 min after PWO right? And i still dont buy that casein doesnt slow down digestion of protein..

On a different note. anyone know the calorie content of 30g Maltose?


----------



## Big G (Jul 13, 2007)

Jodi said:


> Wow, I'm glad I didn't see this thread when it came out.  I would have gone apeshit on your ass  Yeah! I slipped one past you!
> 
> Iain gave the *BEST *advice you can get regarding PWO and it would have been my recommendation as well. I know _you _would've. You don;tbelieve in shakes of any kind, do you?
> 
> As far as flaxseed oil causing estrogen........that's such bullshit please have some facts to back it up and not some stupid health website... I've read that in numerous places now. Not just online, but in numerous nutritional books too. Do a google search for "flaxseed oestrogen" and you'll see link after link after link. Surely everyone can't be spouting bullshit. There must be some scientific research that'd cause so many sites to say the same thing. I don't know what you regard as a legitimate/trustworthy source of information, but for so many "_stupid health websites_" to say the same thing someone must've tested it at some point.



Also...



P-funk said:


> what you do post workout is dependant on a variety of things......goals and the type of training output are two of them.  So the whole carbs post workout, no carbs post workout, etc.....it all depends on what you are trying to do.



The goal is hypertrophy. I just wanna grow!  My understanding is that immediately after workout I should aim to spike insulin, along with a healthy dose of protein, to shuttle amino acids into the muscles to begin the repair process. Oats apparently will do the job BUT what's wrong with a shake? It has carbs and protein in it. What difference does it make? It's not like I'm living off of shakes. The rest of my day is all all-natural, whole food. 

Has anyone here read Nutrient Timing? I swear, the author spent 2-300 pages explaining why a PWO shake (like CytoGainer) is _ideal_. The dude that recommended I read that book (from my gym) is huge too. He's not 'roid-huge, but pretty damn big for an all-natural guy.

This sounds to me like one of those everyone-has-their-own-opinion deals. All kinds of poeple are drinking shakes and seeing gains. Are we condemming _all _shakes always, just PWO shakes, or just shakes w/carbs in them?

w/thx,
G.


----------



## MCx2 (Jul 13, 2007)

Jesus Christ. Just drink the cytogainer then...


----------



## Big G (Jul 13, 2007)

Whatever!


----------



## Jodi (Jul 13, 2007)

Big G said:


> Also...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually I've met Dr. Ivy so yeah I know about that book.  You apparently have missed the whole point.

We all say PWO shake is important and oats will do the job just fine.  There have been several debates about this and the consensus is complex carbs will work just as well as high glycemic carbs.

Read 

Items:
Measuring Cup
Spoon
Blender
Measuring Spoons

Ingredients:
Whey Protein
Rolled Oats
Yogurt
Banana

Directions:
Scoop whey protein in blender
Measure yogurt and put in blender
Measure oats and put in blender
Peel banana and put it in the blender
Plug in Blender and press start
Pour and drink.

Whala........PWO shake!


----------



## Big G (Jul 13, 2007)

Thank you for the indepth instructions on how to mix four things together in a blender! I'm sure there's some complete fucking retard out there that you just really helped. Unfortunately for me *I'm at work and there is no blender. *And, "No" I can't bring one in. Everyone thinks I'm a freak anyway becuase I take three lunchbreaks compared to their one. 

I'm more than happy to agree that a whole food option is ALWAYS better. But since CytoGainer is NO SIMPLE CARBS (i.e. ONLY COMPLEX CARBS) I had hoped it would roll in a close second. 

I started this thread in hopes of finding something that would be better than CytoGainer but equally as convenient.  I'll gladly make a shake with oats when I'm at home, working out in my garage, during the weekend, but when I'm at work, cramming a hour-long workout into an hour-15min break (with no available blender for ten miles or more) it's just not convenient. Similarly after work, when the office is closed, I'm eating in the changing room (and a blender just won't fit in my gym bag!)

I could eat a banana walking back from the gym. I guess I could even potentially chug down a quick yogurt and protein shake before having a shower, but oats? How am I going to get half a cup of oats down me in the changing room? I could powderize them, I suppose, and just add them to the yogurt/whey mix, then just shake 'em up. D'ya reckon that'd work? It sounds kind-of funky, but I'm willing to try.

Again though, if oats are complex carbs and cytogainer is complex carbs what is there to go _apeshit_ about? 

Honestly. I'm not being a dick here. I'm genuinely interested. What's the BIG GIGANTIC difference between complex carbs and complex carbs?


----------



## tucker01 (Jul 13, 2007)

Just mix the shake in before you go to work and keep refrigerated.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 13, 2007)

> Thank you for the indepth instructions on how to mix four things together in a blender! I'm sure there's some complete fucking retard out there that you just really helped. Unfortunately for me I'm at work and there is no blender. And, "No" I can't bring one in. Everyone thinks I'm a freak anyway becuase I take three lunchbreaks compared to their one.


Oh come on..........it was all in good fun.  Don't be upset.  I was just joking around.  



> IAgain though, if oats are complex carbs and cytogainer is complex carbs what is there to go apeshit about?


Malto is not a complex carb.  And the reason I said I would go apeshit is because I didn't like the way you talked to Iain.  It was very very rude!



> Honestly. I'm not being a dick here. I'm genuinely interested. What's the BIG GIGANTIC difference between complex carbs and complex carbs?


Again.........maltodextrin is not a complex carb.  It's a simple carb.  Malto is many dextrose molecules put together by hydrogen bonds that are quickly and easily broken down by the stomach.  Thus making it dextrose in the stomach.  Dextrose  = Simple carb.  Malto is such a marketing ploy.  Yet another disgusting example set forth by the supplement industry and their false advertising.



IainDaniel said:


> Just mix the shake in before you go to work and keep refrigerated.


Yup and this is what most of us do.


----------



## nni (Jul 13, 2007)

yes malto claims to be complex, but it is misleading. complex carbs are usually equted to slower carbs, whereas malso is a faster carbs more characteristics of simple carbs.


----------



## Big G (Jul 13, 2007)

OK. Cool. That makes sence. 

Anyone got some oats? 

w/thx,
G.
PS. Iain - Sorry again about that one. Bad day that day. Plus, I didn't know you from Adam back then. I figured it was the blind leading the blind again and I just lost it for a moment. Hugs?


----------



## soxmuscle (Jul 13, 2007)

Scold me if you will, but boy, did you come off as a prick at the beginning of this thread.

Iain 4 President.


----------



## leg_press (Jul 13, 2007)

You *need * simple sugar post workout Big G, its my understanding that this is the only time you need simple sugar during training days. I used to have a bottled protein shake with 50g protein and 60g carbs, but I have switched to a cheaper alternative, 2 scoops of whey in water, and three slices of white bread with jam.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 13, 2007)

WRONG!  You don't NEED simple sugar PWO.  You need carbs PWO.  Ectomorphs/Hardgainers are probably better off with simple sugars but everyone else, I suggest complex.


----------



## leg_press (Jul 13, 2007)

Ok my mistake *I * need simple carbs post workout.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 13, 2007)

Yes, *YOU *need simple, Big G does not


----------



## leg_press (Jul 13, 2007)

I always thought simple carbs replaced glycogen stores quickly which was best post workout, or is a mix of simple and complex best?


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 13, 2007)

Jodi's advice probably dead on. I used to go the high GI way, but now I love the other with yogurt, fruit oats and whey.

Cytogainer is fine for a high GI spike, but is it really needed? I think not.


----------



## danny81 (Jul 13, 2007)

waht do you put in ur post workout shake? i like oats, milk, yogurt, strawberry, bannana, and un flavored whey. is that good?


----------



## tucker01 (Jul 14, 2007)

danny81 said:


> waht do you put in ur post workout shake? i like oats, milk, yogurt, strawberry, bannana, and un flavored whey. is that good?




Did you read the fucking thread?


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 14, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> Did you read the fucking thread?


damn ian, who shook you out of bed on the cranky side?


----------



## AKIRA (Jul 14, 2007)

Big G said:


> Taking CytoGainer at the moment. 580cal, 79carb(6g sugar), 54gprotein, 98%lactose free, 96% fat free(45cal fat). + Tastes Yummy!
> 
> Alternatives?



Ok I read the whoel thread and instead of saying the same shit others have, Ill just say that I am a big fan of Cytogainer.  I am.  I drank the gunk all the time during my bulk.

Youre asking if there is a better shake out there with less fat arent you?  Well, I honestly dont know, but I am sure there is.  However, i dont think you NEED it.  Big G arent you an ectomorph?  If so, why care about the fat shit then?  Cuz its sweet, oh, I remember.  Well get a different flavor since you like the product so much.

Mix it with milk for more calories or eat a banana with it.


----------



## Big G (Jul 14, 2007)

Jodi said:


> WRONG!  You don't NEED simple sugar PWO.  You need carbs PWO.  Ectomorphs/Hardgainers are probably better off with simple sugars but everyone else, I suggest complex.



Gee Whizz!  Honest to God, I just now came back from buying oats, yogurt and bananas (among other things) and came up here to see what your recommendation was on quantites of each for a homemade shake. Now you go and type that. LOL.

For the record, I'm definitely ectomorphic. When I moved from UK to US in '98 I was 25yrs old, 6'2" and 147lb. I looked like a boney, white, bean-stalk. From 25 to 33 I gained 45lb (Mmm! Sausage gravy...) but was looking pretty chubby. From November to March (this year) I lost 33lb, leaving me at 161lb, 8-10%bf. I've since gained about 6lb of what appears to be just good ol' lean meat and I'm actually starting to look kind-of buff, a little bit anyway. I'm still a kind-of gangly though. My waist is about 31". I think I'll fill out nicely though, as time goes by. My guess is ecto-meso 75:25

I'm _still _going downstairs now though, to make one of those homemade shakes.  

And, Iain... I ordered some Whey Gourmet (white chocolate). Man, that sounds good. It should arrive here soon, I guess. Thx for that one. 




soxmuscle said:


> Scold me if you will, but boy, did you come off as a prick at the beginning of this thread.
> 
> Iain 4 President.


----------



## Big G (Jul 14, 2007)

AKIRA said:


> Youre asking if there is a better shake out there with less fat arent you?



No. I was just asking about alternatives. A change of flavor. Other options. I dunno. Just other products that'd be comparable/better/different. 

I had no idea it would turn into this huge, mind-blowing, ongoing thread. I thought someone would say "Try XYZ-PWO Shake. You'll love it." and that'd be the end of it. 

Now, here I am, an almost-professor in the biochemical makeup of malto-freakin'-dextrin just trying to find out WTF everyone's so strung out about. 

It said "complex carbs only" right on the tub! I had no idea it was hydrogen-linked simple-sugar-wadjamaflips that was in it. I swear. A shelf of supplements to the newbie is like a mine-field!


----------



## Big G (Jul 14, 2007)

Jodi said:


> Scoop whey protein in blender
> Measure yogurt and put in blender
> Measure oats and put in blender
> Peel banana and put it in the blender
> ...



Shoot. You never did say how much of everything you use. Playing with FitDay I found 2cups yogurt, 1½srvngs whey, ¼cup oats and a banana makes 616cal 54%carbs, 41%protein, but isn't that a lot of yogurt? How many oats do you tend to add?

I haven't made one yet. I think it sounds kind-of disgusting, especially sat in the fridge all day, but I'm gonna try. I think I'll wait until I've got the right mix though. I don't wanna gross myself out unnecessarily!


----------



## leg_press (Jul 15, 2007)

Big G said:


> Shoot. You never did say how much of everything you use. Playing with FitDay I found 2cups yogurt, 1½srvngs whey, ¼cup oats and a banana makes 616cal 54%carbs, 41%protein, but isn't that a lot of yogurt? How many oats do you tend to add?
> 
> I haven't made one yet. I think it sounds kind-of disgusting, especially sat in the fridge all day, but I'm gonna try. I think I'll wait until I've got the right mix though. I don't wanna gross myself out unnecessarily!



Use your brain, if you think the yoghurt is too much then use 1/2 yoghurt half milk or water.


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 15, 2007)

i think the answer he's looking for is what ratio of protein to carbs. In that case, I have always gone with 20-40g of protein and taking in his bodyweight considerations, I'd say probably about ehhhhh.....    .5g x bodyweight for 
carbs. Anyone concur?


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 15, 2007)

Big G said:


> Shoot. You never did say how much of everything you use. Playing with FitDay I found 2cups yogurt, 1½srvngs whey, ¼cup oats and a banana makes 616cal 54%carbs, 41%protein, but isn't that a lot of yogurt? How many oats do you tend to add?
> 
> I haven't made one yet. I think it sounds kind-of disgusting, especially sat in the fridge all day, but I'm gonna try. I think I'll wait until I've got the right mix though. I don't wanna gross myself out unnecessarily!


G, part of the discovery of bbing is what works for YOU. Not 5000 others. I weigh 217, my caloric requirements are different from yours, PFunks and leg press. Figure out what works for you and throw the fucking clito-gainer away. Its shit.


----------

