# Big guy trying to get smaller



## kaoticone (Aug 14, 2009)

Hi everyone, I'm a big guy (6 ft tall, 270lbs), but I have much more fat than I'd like, I don't want to  be built like arnold, and I don't wanna be a stick either. I started working out a  year ago or so, and havent plateaued like most, I have been able to lose some fat and gain a lot of muscle through a variety of exercises and consistency while varying work out routines. Since my main goal i simply to lose fat, I have stopped all such exercise and now jog for 30 minutes 4 days a week. As far as my diet, I have greatly improved it, I mostly just drink water, no soda, and lots of water, I rarely eat out, I try to avoid sweets but am not as successful as I'd like, I'm working on it. I also have a number of health issues, but no diabetes or heart diseases or conditions. I'm basically just looking for any help anyone with experience can offer. I need to buy a treadmill since I hate jogging outside in this humidity in the mornings. Also, I used to weigh much less, but the muscle has shot my weight up, the doctor says to ignore the scale because it looks like its just muscle. Also, I've done protein shakes, etc to no avail, I'm looking at trying vitamin d supplement.


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## Perdido (Aug 15, 2009)

Sounds like your doctor has given you some good advise regarding the scale.

Read this first: http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/new-members-begin-here/97077-read-me-first-homework-1-newbies.html

If it were me I'd be doing less cardio and incorporate some weight training but the most important is fixing your diet.


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## kaoticone (Aug 15, 2009)

Thanks, I'll look at that. i've been doing what I consider a form of weight training with my total gym all this time, and have had incredible results, I have gone from a pant size 44 to a 38, and that is a loose 38. The hardest area sees to be losing my belly fat. I've also gotten a lot stronger through working out on my total gym, I also use dumbbells for some exercises.


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## Perdido (Aug 15, 2009)

Congrat's on your progress so far!
I'd also recommend reading up on Lyle McDonalds stuff. He's a weight loss while retaining as much muscle mass as possible guru.


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## DocHoliday (Aug 18, 2009)

kaoticone said:


> Hi everyone, I'm a big guy (6 ft tall, 270lbs), but I have much more fat than I'd like, I don't want to  be built like arnold, and I don't wanna be a stick either. I started working out a  year ago or so, and havent plateaued like most, I have been able to lose some fat and gain a lot of muscle through a variety of exercises and consistency while varying work out routines. Since my main goal i simply to lose fat, I have stopped all such exercise and now jog for 30 minutes 4 days a week. As far as my diet, I have greatly improved it, I mostly just drink water, no soda, and lots of water, I rarely eat out, I try to avoid sweets but am not as successful as I'd like, I'm working on it. I also have a number of health issues, but no diabetes or heart diseases or conditions. I'm basically just looking for any help anyone with experience can offer. I need to buy a treadmill since I hate jogging outside in this humidity in the mornings. Also, I used to weigh much less, but the muscle has shot my weight up, the doctor says to ignore the scale because it looks like its just muscle. Also, I've done protein shakes, etc to no avail, I'm looking at trying vitamin d supplement.


 Forget the scale - measure your percent of bodyfat!  Your doctor is right - muscle is good - fat bad!  You need to get back to lifting ASAP!  The more muscle, the higher your resting metabolism - ie: you burn more calories 24 hours/day.  Jogging alone will just get you fatter.  Figure out your maintenance calorie level and deduct 700.  That's a good place to start.  Cut your fat to 20% max of daily calories.


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## kaoticone (Aug 18, 2009)

Thanks, 700 calories sounds like a lot, but I'll try.
PS, I stopped jogging this morning and got back on my total gym.


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## kaoticone (Aug 21, 2009)

A friend who is a nutritionist and a trainer recommend that I use a bicycle, even one of those stationary ones for a good cardio workout to burn fat. what do you all suggest on that? I really need to burn fat.


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## juggernaut (Aug 21, 2009)

You might want to also look into PSMF (you'd be a category 3 dieter). It enables you to have to 2 free meals a week and is well designed.


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## kaoticone (Aug 21, 2009)

juggernaut said:


> You might want to also look into PSMF (you'd be a category 3 dieter). It enables you to have to 2 free meals a week and is well designed.


Please expound on this PSMF. Also, I'm more disciplined than most, so I don't really need 2 'free' meals a week. most of my fat, probably all actually, has to do with medical related conditions.


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## Marat (Aug 21, 2009)

kaoticone said:


> most of my fat, probably all actually, has to do with medical related conditions.



What are the conditions? Thyroid related?


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## Marat (Aug 21, 2009)

Protein sparing modified fast (PSMF) is essentially a 'diet' that is intended to be run between 11 days to 6 weeks, depending on body composition. It is created specifically to be used for those short periods of time. Frequently, it is used in order to 'jump start' a cutting cycle, or just to accelerate fat loss in a short window. It is generally recommended that you already have the skills in order to regulate your long term fat loss/gain before going on this diet.

The basics is that it restricts carbohydrates and fat to 200 total calories each day and has you eating between 1-1.5g/protein each day. A refeed and free meal is incorporated each week and the frequency of both is dependent on your body composition. 

It is also recommended to include two short training sessions each week.

The book, The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook by Lyle McDonald, explains the diet.

The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook by Lyle McDonald | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald


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## kaoticone (Aug 21, 2009)

m11 said:


> What are the conditions? Thyroid related?


if only it were so simple. I'm a very rare case. The short version is that I have no pituitary gland, and I do take thyroid and other replacement medications for stuff my body does not produce on its own. A big issue as of late has been an extreme lack and/or drop of energy. Though I do get up at 5:30 everyday, get on my total gym til 6, shower, eat oatmeal for breakfast, get dressed, go to work, and so on.


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## T_man (Aug 21, 2009)

Do you work out on an empty stomach?


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## kaoticone (Aug 21, 2009)

T_man said:


> Do you work out on an empty stomach?



I do in the morning, then I eat a banana before I shower.


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## T_man (Aug 22, 2009)

No PWO nutrition?


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## kaoticone (Aug 22, 2009)

T_man said:


> No PWO nutrition?



not that early, I hardly have time to workout, let alone eat breakfast. I literally hop out of bed, put on my socks and shoes, stretch, pull out the total gym and workout.


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## kaoticone (Aug 23, 2009)

T_man said:


> No PWO nutrition?


that's a no. should I? I hardly have time to work out, and wouldn't that make me sick? so does anyone agree on the bicycling or an elliptical or something? My friend says he burns 1600 calories a day 3 days a week on his bicycle. it seems I was mistaken, I don't mean an elliptical, I mean like a stationary bike or some indoor static bicycling equivalent.

Also, I have been looking at the homework for newbies, I would love to do those 7 exercises, but I only have a total gym, this is because I have no room for all the free weights. the other ting is when trying to squat, it is very difficult, some squats require you to stay on your heels, I find this to be impossible at the moment. and as far as short and long term goals, short: lose additional body fat, mostly upper body. Long: I'd like to be cut, not muscular, but I don't know that I'll ever get there. would posting a pic of myself now help? I could also post a pic of my short term and long term goal if I can find it online. The odd thing is that I'm strong, and have lots of discipline, the problem for me is fat loss. I try not to eat out, but sometimes I have lunch or dinner meetings.


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## kaoticone (Aug 23, 2009)

I think it would help to give you my current basic diet:
weekdays:
breakfast - oatmeal 2 packets, 200 calories + lactose free 2% milk
lunch - turkey and swiss sandwich x 2 homemade on wheat bread
or tuna (1 can/2 sandwiches) on wheat bread
dinner - whatever, usually something quick like a 6 inch turkey breast on wheat from subway with veggies. or sometimes something simple like a taco.
I think dinner is an issue, and I eat sorta late, like 7pm, and I wake up very hungry, then workout.
I workout empty cause I read somewhere that working out in the morning burns calories and fat already in you, while working out after work will burn calories and fats eaten during the day.


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## Perdido (Aug 23, 2009)

kaoticone said:


> I think it would help to give you my current basic diet:
> weekdays:
> breakfast - oatmeal 2 packets, 200 calories + lactose free 2% milk
> lunch - turkey and swiss sandwich x 2 homemade on wheat bread
> ...



Check out this thread. I think you'll find it useful:
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/75105-metabolism-kick-start-question.html


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## kaoticone (Aug 23, 2009)

I just talked to my friend (the nutritionist/trainer), he says I need to do cardio after working out for best results, so to do that, I'd have to workout after work, then jog right after that. does that sound ok? I'll check out that thread.
Upon quickly reading the thread, lots of great info, but I'd like to eat then do cardio, that's hard to do after work, but I'd also like to eat 5-6 small meals throughout the day, I just don't know what to eat.


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## Perdido (Aug 23, 2009)

I've had great results doing HIIT cardio for only 10 minutes after weight training. It's really a very efficient way of doing cardio.


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## kaoticone (Aug 23, 2009)

rahaas said:


> I've had great results doing HIIT cardio for only 10 minutes after weight training. It's really a very efficient way of doing cardio.


what is HIIT? and is that what you all think would be best following my workout in the afternoons after work? and what should I eat pre workout? and where can I find good info on what to eat for small meals throughout the day?


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## Perdido (Aug 23, 2009)

HIIT is high intensity interval training. Good reading---> Got Built? » How to do Cardio if you MUST!

Allot of reading but a good start for meals:
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/diet-nutrition/21113-guide-cutting-bulking-maintenance.html

Good discussion on preworkout stuff:
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/supplements/101916-homebrew-pre-workout-mix.html
I don't have the time or patience for elaborate stuff so mine consist of a 1/2 pint of milk with 3 scoops of BCAA added about 1/2 hour before workout followed by sips of water pre and during workout.


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## kaoticone (Aug 23, 2009)

bricklayer85 said:


> you have a lot to learn kaoticone...I mean that respectfully, but if you dont know about post workout nutrition or HIIT, you need to brush up on reading a lot of stickies.


I'll start reading. I don't know about post or pre workout nutrition, seems like it would be a bad idea.


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## Perdido (Aug 23, 2009)

Just keep asking specific questions you'll get lots of help here from the mods.


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## T_man (Aug 23, 2009)

Looks like the English sarcastic sense of humour isn't shared all over the world.

I must look like such a freak to you guys. I may as well be welsh.


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## kaoticone (Aug 23, 2009)

T_man said:


> Looks like the English sarcastic sense of humour isn't shared all over the world.
> 
> I must look like such a freak to you guys. I may as well be welsh.


LOL, a welsh. that is sorta funny, would probably be funnier if I were english. 
sorry for the off topic.


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## kaoticone (Aug 23, 2009)

I've been reading about HIIT, I cant wait to start. I will start at 4 minute interval, I will run outside my apartment complex on the street after working out in the afternoons. I just happen to be seeing my doc tomorrow, so we'll see what he thinks. Does everyone here agree that I need to track it? and do i really need a heart rate monitor or something? I don't think I'm at a level of unfitness where I'd have a heart attack. Can anyone suggest a good pre workout nutrition? protein shake maybe? would a protein shake count as one of my 6 meals a day? I'm so excited to do this after a year of working out!!!!!!!


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## Marat (Aug 23, 2009)

kaoticone said:


> would a protein shake count as one of my 6 meals a day?



Why 6 meals a day?


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## kaoticone (Aug 24, 2009)

m11 said:


> Why 6 meals a day?


well, 5-6 small meals a day, but I think that doing that will be much more difficult than hiit will be.


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## Marat (Aug 24, 2009)

kaoticone said:


> well, 5-6 small meals a day, but I think that doing that will be much more difficult than hiit will be.



Any particular reason for eating 5-6 meals as opposed to a range that is more comfortable for you.


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## kaoticone (Aug 24, 2009)

m11 said:


> Any particular reason for eating 5-6 meals as opposed to a range that is more comfortable for you.


just trying to go by what was posted here, small meals throughout the day.


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## Marat (Aug 24, 2009)

Ah.

I haven't noticed anything in this thread regarding meal frequency...maybe it was somewhere else.

Either way, as long as you are getting adequate pre workout nutrition, meal frequency isn't very important. 

Typically, those eating a tremendous amount of calories each day find it easier to as many as six or seven meals a day in order to accommodate for large calorie counts . However, whether you choose to eat two meals or five, as long as your total caloric intake is within the proper range, meal frequency becomes relatively irrelevant. 

As you mentioned, 5-6 meals may become tough---especially with regards to satiety. Feel free to eat as many meals per day as you find comfortable.


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## Perdido (Aug 24, 2009)

M11 it was mention in one of the links I posted. Didn't want to overwhelm the guy any more than I already did.


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## T_man (Aug 25, 2009)

I've read that for bulking meal frequency doesn't matter but when on a cut I read eating every 2-3 hours keeps your metabolism fired high. Any truths to this claim?


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## Marat (Aug 25, 2009)

T_man said:


> I've read that for bulking meal frequency doesn't matter but when on a cut I read eating every 2-3 hours keeps your metabolism fired high. Any truths to this claim?



No. Where did you read this?


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## T_man (Aug 25, 2009)

I cant remember i was researching meal frequency and I saw it posted on a couple of sites and forums.

They say because your body hardly goes into surplus at any one time all the food digested is either burnt or used in some sort of way instead of storing the carbs as fat then later breaking down muscle instead of fat. It reduces catabolism apparently in this way too.


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## Perdido (Aug 25, 2009)

m11 said:


> No. Where did you read this?



Item #1 here: http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/diet-nutrition/21113-guide-cutting-bulking-maintenance.html


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## kaoticone (Aug 26, 2009)

MiletJohn said:


> Your doctor is right, your problem is only for one part muscles hand. So, dont take any decision in panic.


That doesn't make a lot of sense. My doctor thinks I should keep trying to eat better and he thinks that I should keep jogging or start doing Hiit, he really wants me to get my bmi below 35, but he also says I'm a big guy, and that many football players have a high bmi and are not unhealthy.


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## Perdido (Aug 26, 2009)

BMI is just an insurance company tool used to charge you more money for premiums and is otherwise useless. BF% is much more accurate way of determining if you are in healthy ranges.
My doc told me I'm "healthy fat". My BMI was way high but BF% is in the very low teens.


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## Marat (Aug 26, 2009)

T_man said:


> I cant remember i was researching meal frequency and I saw it posted on a couple of sites and forums.
> 
> They say because your body hardly goes into surplus at any one time all the food digested is either burnt or used in some sort of way instead of storing the carbs as fat then later breaking down muscle instead of fat. It reduces catabolism apparently in this way too.





rahaas said:


> Item #1 here: http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/diet-nutrition/21113-guide-cutting-bulking-maintenance.html



Can we agree that one of the principle matters that lead to success whether during a cut or bulk is compliance?
The OP expressed his feelings towards having to eat 5 times each day. Although it is accepted that lifestyle changes do need to be made for him to be successful, I don't feel that increasing his meal frequency needs to be one. 

There may or may not be benefits to frequent feedings. The intermittent fasting community has a little more information on the subject. Here's P-funk's podcast with Brad Pilon, author of Eat,Stop,Eat. There's some interesting information in both the podcast and the book.

Ultimately, if eating five or six times a day is what will cause him to give up, which it does in many, then I do not feel that it is worth making that particular change. Six months from now, he will not waste away from eating three times a day at deficit.


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## Perdido (Aug 26, 2009)

I agree with you on the increased meal frequency topic. Just pointing out where the OP might have gotten the suggestion that it is necessary to eat more frequently.


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## T_man (Aug 26, 2009)

m11 said:


> Can we agree that one of the principle matters that lead to success whether during a cut or bulk is compliance?
> The OP expressed his feelings towards having to eat 5 times each day. Although it is accepted that lifestyle changes do need to be made for him to be successful, I don't feel that increasing his meal frequency needs to be one.
> 
> There may or may not be benefits to frequent feedings. The intermittent fasting community has a little more information on the subject. Here's P-funk's podcast with Brad Pilon, author of Eat,Stop,Eat. There's some interesting information in both the podcast and the book.
> ...



About the intermittent fasting: you can't really eat every 2-3 hours on that really can you 

But I was just throwing it out there and hopefully you guys could shed light on this topic to help the OP. We don't know how comfortable he is doing 3 meals a day or 6, we provide him with info and he does the choosing, but I'm not on either side of the fence on this topic.


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## kaoticone (Aug 26, 2009)

I can say I prefer 3 meals a day, smaller or lower calorie meals, and a snack between meals, usually my snack is a granola bar or a few almonds.


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## Marat (Aug 26, 2009)

Kaoticone, rahaas provided you with some excellent links on the first page. Please re-read the first link that he gave you (it is the same as the 'getting started by built' link in my signature). 

Specifically, notice the part about tracking your calories.

Please sign up on FitDay - Free Weight Loss and Diet Journal and track your calories for a few days. Come back with your total grams of fat, carbohydrates, protein, and fiber. No percentages. 

Tracking will be an integral portion of getting the ball rolling towards reaching your goals.


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## kaoticone (Aug 26, 2009)

great idea, but how do I know how many calories are in something like a sandwich? or 5 almonds? or the many bottles of water I drink? or other such stuff?
ok, I signed up, I know i will eat oatmeal for breakfast, and maybe a small banana, how can just add what I eat to it instead of choosing? plus I use lactose free reduced fat ilk in my oatmeal.
Now I see I can create a food. do you all recommend I add all the fat and what not? in calories, my oatmeal for breakfast with milk is 330.
Here's what that breakfast looks like so far without ALL the stuff, this includes milk and oatmeal.


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## Marat (Aug 26, 2009)

Play around with fitday for a bit to get familiarized. The website has a very comprehensive database of foods.

You can also create custom foods for things that are not preprogrammed into the website. I 'create a custom food' for most of the things I eat because I more or less eat the same stuff day in and day out. If I start eating something new, I just create a new food for it.

Everything ultimately will be weighed or measured in a cup. So with almonds, you can weigh the almonds and input 30g or whatever the portion is for the 5 almonds into the site. Or, you can take like a 1/4 cup of almonds and input it that way. Play around, you'll figure it out.

For things like sandwiches, you can do one of two things:

You can break it into components (my preference). That is, input: 2 slices of bread, 5 slices turkey, 1 slice swiss cheese, 1 tbs mustard, 30g tomato, 25g lettuce. That's basically the idea. You can create a custom food for the turkey and the bread for accuracy. By the way, are you familiar with reading nutrition labels? If not, we can help you out. 

or

If you make it the same way each day, you can just create it as custom food. So if you sandwich always is 2 slices of bread, 5 slices turkey, etc... you can add up all the macronutrients and just create 1 custom food called 'sandwich'. I don't prefer this method because I don't make my food the same way each day. 

You following?

You do not need to input food that has no nutritional value (e.g  diet soda, water, etc). Also, things like the lettuce I mentioned up there don't really have much going on in them. For this period of time in which we are trying to collect data on your intake, go ahead and put everything in except the foods that have 0 calories. When you get more familiarized, you'll see what you don't need to input. 

Let us know if you have any questions.


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## kaoticone (Aug 26, 2009)

I don't eat the same EVERy day, but I do many days, so I'll just create a sandwich like that. I have stopped drinking soda altogether, I hear that even diet soda is very bad. I have diabetes encipidus, which is crazy, so I'm always drinking something and I get bored with water, which I drink tons of. I do love powerade., but have cut back to about nothing on that as well.


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## Marat (Aug 26, 2009)

Regarding diet soda, I've taken the stance that it is fine. Even if I do develop a cancer cell from my couple of diet pepsi cans when I'm 95 years old, then its a worthy trade off.

Nonetheless, get to tracking...looking forward to hearing back with your values.


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## T_man (Aug 27, 2009)

m11 said:


> Regarding diet soda, I've taken the stance that it is fine. Even if I do develop a cancer cell from my couple of diet pepsi cans when I'm 95 years old, then its a worthy trade off.
> 
> Nonetheless, get to tracking...looking forward to hearing back with your values.



Doesn't diet soda have aspartame?


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## Marat (Aug 27, 2009)

yes


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## Revolution (Aug 28, 2009)

*Keep on keepin' on!*

*I am very happy that you're putting in the effort here... As a bigger guy myself, I feel that I should explain what has always worked for me!


I have been an avid follower of Dr. Pain and his strong beliefs in Beverly Nutrition over the years...


I am currently 6'4" 260lbs...I used to be 6'4" 330 lbs in high school...

I would highly reccommend you do a forum search on "Dr. Pain" and read his posts...By following his Male Cutting Plans and teaching myself everything about insulin sensitivity and sugar (how it affects the body upon ingestion) I have been able to make extremely great strides over the years!

The diet consists of limiting yourself to NO SUGAR and keeping your carbs extremely low and COMPLEX! You can read more about it under Dr. Pain's posts! Also, "w8lifter" is another female BB you might be interested in following...She was studying under the "DP Methods" as well over the past couple of years and she has made great progress as well...


I can only say that this program has ALWAYS worked for me and my family...I have been able to implement this lifestyle into their lives and many of my clients that I train in the gym...


GOOD LUCK! Any questions, feel free to ask, I'd be happy to help...*


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## kaoticone (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks.I think I just need to find a good workout combination and time, unfortunately both are very hard to determine.


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## kaoticone (Aug 30, 2009)

well, I'm gonna restart the fit day tracking on monday, I missed 2 days and it won't let me change the day I ate something.


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## bodyforum1 (Sep 5, 2009)

kaoticone said:


> Hi everyone, I'm a big guy (6 ft tall, 270lbs), but I have much more fat than I'd like, I don't want to  be built like arnold, and I don't wanna be a stick either. I started working out a  year ago or so, and havent plateaued like most, I have been able to lose some fat and gain a lot of muscle through a variety of exercises and consistency while varying work out routines. Since my main goal i simply to lose fat, I have stopped all such exercise and now jog for 30 minutes 4 days a week. As far as my diet, I have greatly improved it, I mostly just drink water, no soda, and lots of water, I rarely eat out, I try to avoid sweets but am not as successful as I'd like, I'm working on it. I also have a number of health issues, but no diabetes or heart diseases or conditions. I'm basically just looking for any help anyone with experience can offer. I need to buy a treadmill since I hate jogging outside in this humidity in the mornings. Also, I used to weigh much less, but the muscle has shot my weight up, the doctor says to ignore the scale because it looks like its just muscle. Also, I've done protein shakes, etc to no avail, I'm looking at trying vitamin d supplement.



looks like u r very much determined to stay fit and healthy, but u r not able to find the right kind of a guidance. m not someone really experienced abt bodybuilding, but still can judge by ur posts that u have a concern and u are seeking a solution for it..

hope that u get some one good at it soon and helps u out of the problem.

thanks..
and all the best...


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## kaoticone (Sep 7, 2009)

ok, here is the last week's eating.


















I've gone back to my total gym, I think I'd get the best results running, but it seems to put a lot more strain on my body than the total gym, what are your thoughts?


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## Built (Sep 7, 2009)

Your diet blows. 

Please read the link in my sig on getting started. You'll see how to set up your diet and you'll be able to answer your own question about WHY your diet blows.


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## kaoticone (Sep 7, 2009)

Built said:


> Your diet blows.
> 
> Please read the link in my sig on getting started. You'll see how to set up your diet and you'll be able to answer your own question about WHY your diet blows.


If its the newbie thing, I've read it, but not the do it yourself diet yet, I guess that's next.


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## Built (Sep 7, 2009)

If you read the newbie thing, why are you dieting on 30g of protein a day?


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## kaoticone (Sep 7, 2009)

Built said:


> If you read the newbie thing, why are you dieting on 30g of protein a day?


I don't know, I always thought that eating more protein was a good thing,  plus when I eat less protein, I get hungrier more quickly and then eat more at my next meal. I know I need to work on my diet, and tomorrow night after woork, I will spend much time studying diet.


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## Built (Sep 7, 2009)

So... you're keeping protein super-low to help you stay hungry longer?

<- confused.


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## kaoticone (Sep 8, 2009)

Built said:


> So... you're keeping protein super-low to help you stay hungry longer?
> 
> <- confused.


I thought you were stating I was eating too much protein, I was very tired last night. Another factor my doctor says is working against me is the steroid I'm taking, he's thinking of reducing it. No one commented on my question about cardio vs. total gym workout. When I read the newbie thread, all that stuff about buddy flew over my head, I'm good at math, but not that sorta stuff.


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## kaoticone (Sep 8, 2009)

Ah ha!!!!
a revelation/epiphany!
That do it yourself diet is great, I just need some help in further revealing this stuff. So here goes, I'll say my goal weight is 200 lbs since I'm 6 feet tall, if the estimated 90% is lean muscle mass (per the diet), that's 180 lbs, so according to the formula, I need to use my desired lean mass as the standard for my diet per the formula:

Protein at no lower than a gram per pound of lean mass, so at least 180 grams of protein daily.

Fat at no lower than half a gram per pound of lean mass, so at least 90 grams of fat per day.

Fiber at or around 25g, sounds good. I don't use a fiber supplement.

the remainder of my calories are comfort, sounds easy, but hard, but mostly easy, you guys have never seen determination like mine, believe me. 
Now, how the heck do I do that? Can I just buy stuff that adds up to that?
This is where I get confused. A friend who is a GREAT nutritionist made me a meal plan  a while back, but it was 5 meals a day, and with work, that won't work. Also, he had some meals  as post workout meals, I don't workout EVERY DAY though. I'm still unsure as to whether I should focus on cardio or on weight training on my total gym. At any rate, I'm ready! sorta, just confused on all those numbers.


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## Marat (Sep 8, 2009)

kaoticone said:


> Can I just buy stuff that adds up to that?



Yes



kaoticone said:


> A friend who is a GREAT nutritionist made me a meal plan  a while back



With your said determination, why didn't you reach your goal with that nutritionist?


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## Built (Sep 8, 2009)

Decide on how many calories you intend to run. Set up an imaginary day on fitday with 180 or more grams of protein, 90 or more grams of fat, and 25g or more of fibre, making sure to stay within your calorie "budget".

Provided you hit the "essentials", you can indeed fill up the remainder of your budget with whatever the hell you want. 

Even if it's cupcakes.

Focus on weights. Eat at a modest deficit. You'll drop fat.


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## kaoticone (Sep 8, 2009)

m11 said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> With your said determination, why didn't you reach your goal with that nutritionist?


He is very busy, and doesn't have much time.



Built said:


> Decide on how many calories you intend to run. Set up an imaginary day on fitday with 180 or more grams of protein, 90 or more grams of fat, and 25g or more of fibre, making sure to stay within your calorie "budget".
> 
> Provided you hit the "essentials", you can indeed fill up the remainder of your budget with whatever the hell you want.
> 
> ...


weights it is. as far as filling the remainder, I figured I'd fill it with water. I think I really just need help choosing foods that fit into my budget, then deciding when and how often they should be eaten.  By the way, if I eat at a modest deficit, won't I also lose lean muscle in the process?


----------



## Built (Sep 8, 2009)

kaoticone said:


> He is very busy, and doesn't have much time.


Time for what? You said you already had a meal plan from him. What else could you need?



kaoticone said:


> weights it is. as far as filling the remainder, I figured I'd fill it with water.


You can't. Water doesn't have any calories. 

You need to fill the remainer of your calories, with... um, calories...

What part isn't clear here? 

What are your maintenance calories, and what calorie-level will you be eating while you cut?


kaoticone said:


> I think I really just need help choosing foods that fit into my budget, then deciding when and how often they should be eaten.


As often as you wish. Any time you like. It doesn't matter how many meals you eat or what time you eat them. 


kaoticone said:


> By the way, if I eat at a modest deficit, won't I also lose lean muscle in the process?


Yes. Do it right, and this will be minimal.


----------



## littleriddick (Sep 9, 2009)

m11 said:


> Any particular reason for eating 5-6 meals as opposed to a range that is more comfortable for you.



Eating 5 to 6 times a day is a sure way to get your metabolism going and losing weight fast. The more you eat throughout the day, the less likely your body would want to store fat for later. It just a scientific fact and all the nutritionist would agree..Now, is it easy to eat 5 to 6 healthy meals a day? No...Since it's been ingrained in our heads from our parents that we are to have Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner, we totally dismissed the importance or the _belief_ that we need to eat that many times a day. Since 3 months ago, I have changed the way I eat, sleep, and go to the gym. To help me lose weight, I have totally removed the terms of Breakfast,lunch and dinner and replaced the terms with Meal 1, Meal 2, Meal 3 and etc....Since it's never easy to remember to eat (as we usually tend to eat when we're hungry- especially if you usually eat 3 times a day.), I use my Blackberry to send me reminders. This helps me.   

If you are interested in more ideas or how I was able to reach 14% body fat from 25% body fat during my 3 month journey(to finally become "Little Riddick"), type in "The Road to Riddick" in Google and select "I'm Feeling Lucky" ....I can't post the link here as it won't allow me(spam filter)..  My before and after pictures is further proof that not only eating right will help you lose weight, but starting a proper workout plan is essential to avoid plateauing....My goal now is to reach 9% body fat and finally for the 1st time in my life, I can showoff a 6 pack.... 

I say in 1 month....I will have a 6 pack...guaranteed. 

Keep eating(healthy) *kaoticone* and keep up the good work!


----------



## littleriddick (Sep 9, 2009)

Built said:


> So... you're keeping protein super-low to help you stay hungry longer?
> 
> <- confused.



*Built* - Not too sure if your Avatar is your abs, but...What is the fat body percentage on that pic? approx? 5%?


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## kaoticone (Sep 9, 2009)

wow, your results are pretty good, though reading the website you mentioned, it almost sounds too good/easy to be true. Also, I'm much more overweight than you were when you started. I'm patient, and it'll come as I improve my diet and workout.


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## Built (Sep 9, 2009)

littleriddick said:


> Eating 5 to 6 times a day is a sure way to get your metabolism going and losing weight fast.


Meal frequency has zero impact on your metabolic rate. Eat three meals or seventeen micro-snacks; it ultimately comes down to the calories. 


littleriddick said:


> The more you eat throughout the day, the less likely your body would want to store fat for later.


Um??? ?


littleriddick said:


> It just a scientific fact and all the nutritionist would agree.


Nope.


littleriddick said:


> Now, is it easy to eat 5 to 6 healthy meals a day? No...Since it's been ingrained in our heads from our parents that we are to have Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner, we totally dismissed the importance or the _belief_ that we need to eat that many times a day.


There is no need to eat more than three meals a day - unless you find it more comfortable. Not everybody does. It doesn't matter either way. 


littleriddick said:


> Since 3 months ago, I have changed the way I eat, sleep, and go to the gym. To help me lose weight, I have totally removed the terms of Breakfast,lunch and dinner and replaced the terms with Meal 1, Meal 2, Meal 3 and etc....Since it's never easy to remember to eat (as we usually tend to eat when we're hungry- especially if you usually eat 3 times a day.), I use my Blackberry to send me reminders. This helps me.


I prepack all my food and just eat when I want to. When it's gone, it's gone. There's no reason to eat when I'm not hungry when I'm trying to lose weight. 


littleriddick said:


> If you are interested in more ideas or how I was able to reach 14% body fat from 25% body fat during my 3 month journey(to finally become "Little Riddick"), type in "The Road to Riddick" in Google and select "I'm Feeling Lucky" ....I can't post the link here as it won't allow me(spam filter)..  My before and after pictures is further proof that not only eating right will help you lose weight, but starting a proper workout plan is essential to avoid plateauing....My goal now is to reach 9% body fat and finally for the 1st time in my life, I can showoff a 6 pack....
> 
> I say in 1 month....I will have a 6 pack...guaranteed.
> 
> Keep eating(healthy) *kaoticone* and keep up the good work!





littleriddick said:


> *Built* - Not too sure if your Avatar is your abs, but...What is the fat body percentage on that pic? approx? 5%?


14%, confirmed by DEXA. I'm forty two in that pic, and I had been fat for nearly twenty years. 



kaoticone said:


> wow, your results are pretty good, though reading the website you mentioned, it almost sounds too good/easy to be true. Also, I'm much more overweight than you were when you started. I'm patient, and it'll come as I improve my diet and workout.



If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.


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## kaoticone (Sep 9, 2009)

ok built, you're right, that RPT is a program you buy, it's probably spam, the site to buy it looks like all the other spam sites. I'm talking to my friend tomorrow to see if he can help me with a meal plan for 3 meals a day.


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## Built (Sep 9, 2009)

*CLAIM:*
Elaine Morales: 84 Day Statistics on RTP 
Fat Weight Lost 25 Pounds of Fat Lost 
Body Fat % Lost 18.5% of Bodyfat Lost 
Muscle Gain 14 Pounds of Muscle Gained 







*My take:*
Your client lost 11 lbs in three months. She didn't put on more than perhaps a pound of muscle - she was cutting, she's female, and she's clearly not using steroids. In fact, the only reason I'm allowing the possible pound is the fact that she's a newbie. 

I am VERY muscular for a woman. I started lifting in 2001, and in that time I have gained roughly 13 lbs of muscle, because I know how to train and I know how to diet, and because I have better-than-average genes. 

If you were to put her body and mine side by side, the muscle I carry would be clearly evident. Even five pounds of lean mass makes a TREMENDOUS change to a woman's physique. 

A man on gear MIGHT put on 14 lbs of muscle in three months - but only if he was BULKING. While cutting, this is not possible.

To lose 11 lbs in 12 weeks, she ran just under a 500-calorie per day deficit. 

Sounds like what most of us here would suggest. 

Sure have to read a ton of advertising copy to get to your "methods"… 

… mine on the other hand, are all in one, easy-to-find link. That's because they're free.


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## kaoticone (Sep 9, 2009)

You are AWESOME built, and you're a girl? cool.


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## Built (Sep 9, 2009)

kaoticone said:


> You are AWESOME built,



I am! LOL!



kaoticone said:


> and you're a girl?



You mean, you're not?


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## kaoticone (Sep 9, 2009)

Built said:


> I am! LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> You mean, you're not?


LMAO, I am definitely not a girl.


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## Built (Sep 9, 2009)

I always find it funny when people don't realize they're chatting with a woman until weeks later. You should see some of the PMs I get:

"So bro, I've been taking one of the PHs and now I can't get it up, you ever had this happen? PS sweet abs in your 'tar, man..."


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## kaoticone (Sep 9, 2009)

Built said:


> I always find it funny when people don't realize they're chatting with a woman until weeks later. You should see some of the PMs I get:
> 
> "So bro, I've been taking one of the PHs and now I can't get it up, you ever had this happen? PS sweet abs in your 'tar, man..."


you sex changes nothing, as far as this I mean. I appreciate the help, man or woman or whatever.


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## kaoticone (Sep 10, 2009)

Just to make it clear for everyone, when I posted the fitday calories, that was what I regularly eat, I did not try to cut back because I wanted everyone to see what I eat on a regular basis. on at least one of those days, I ate a hamburger, which is not something I do often.


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## Built (Sep 10, 2009)

If you're overweight eating a thousand calories a day, you need an endocrinologist, not a diet.

I'm a middle-aged woman and at 140 lbs. my maintenance is 2300 calories a day.

Please have your thyroid properly tested.


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## rayray715 (Sep 10, 2009)

kaoticone said:


> You are AWESOME built, and you're a girl? cool.



BUILT IS HOTTT!!!


----------



## kaoticone (Sep 10, 2009)

Built said:


> If you're overweight eating a thousand calories a day, you need an endocrinologist, not a diet.
> 
> I'm a middle-aged woman and at 140 lbs. my maintenance is 2300 calories a day.
> 
> Please have your thyroid properly tested.


actually, those 2 days I was close to 1000 calories, I could find no nutritional info on the food I ate and did not feel safe guessing at it. and a funny story about my endocrinologist, he recently had a brain tumor himself and switched my medication while in a craze, its back now, but I do think my thyroid needs testing, I only see him every 6 months. anyway, my calories are probably about 2000 a day now if not a little more some days, depending on what I eat. I think further tracking is required.


----------



## Built (Sep 10, 2009)

rayray715 said:


> BUILT IS HOTTT!!!



Thanks rayray. 

************
Kaoticone, you had this figured out before:



> Ah ha!!!!
> a revelation/epiphany!
> That do it yourself diet is great, I just need some help in further revealing this stuff. So here goes, I'll say my goal weight is 200 lbs since I'm 6 feet tall, if the estimated 90% is lean muscle mass (per the diet), that's 180 lbs, so according to the formula, I need to use my desired lean mass as the standard for my diet per the formula:
> 
> ...



*Try this: *
Set a calorie level at 2000 a day for now. Try to get in about 180g of protein and about 90g of fat, and about 25g of fibre from food. Your carbs should settle in at or around 100g a day, which is fine.  

*I want you to go into fitday and plan out your tomorrow based on this outline. Your food choices can be whatever you want, as long as it all adds up to about 2000 calories, and gives you about 180g of protein, about 90g of fat and about 25g of fibre. *

For now, don't worry about salt, cholesterol or sugar; just get the numbers to work out and post up a meal plan based around those numbers. 
Can you do that for me?



kaoticone said:


> actually, those 2 days I was close to 1000 calories, I could find no nutritional info on the food I ate and did not feel safe guessing at it. and a funny story about my endocrinologist, he recently had a brain tumor himself and switched my medication while in a craze, its back now, but I do think my thyroid needs testing, I only see him every 6 months. anyway, my calories are probably about 2000 a day now if not a little more some days, depending on what I eat. I think further tracking is required.



Kindly list your current replacement hormones. I imagine you're taking Synthroid and cortisone. You should also be taking growth hormone yes?

What types and dosages are you currently on for your meds?


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## littleriddick (Sep 10, 2009)

kaoticone said:


> ok built, you're right, that RPT is a program you buy, it's probably spam, the site to buy it looks like all the other spam sites. I'm talking to my friend tomorrow to see if he can help me with a meal plan for 3 meals a day.



Yup, I personally purchased this, just like the Itouch I purchased a couple of months ago or the new tv on Thursday...But I'm not here to talk about the the tv or my ipod as it's not on topic...I challenged this system as I didn't think it was gonna work as I have tried other things and they didn't work...Apparently after 3 months, I can now say that it has worked for me, but who knows it may work for you too  or maybe someone else...I took the plunge and documented everyday in a workout journal for 3 months (and I'm still documenting to this date with a new goal in mind - to get a six pack just like "_built_"). If I was looking to spam, I wouldn't have busted my butt for 3 months, or even reply to this message....that's just not worth it...I'm new to the scene, a little excited that I just changed my overall appearance in a record time and I thought this forum was open to provide ideas and share information freely. I guess I chose the wrong forum.... 



As for _built_...who am i to disagree with a person with over 5000 posts and already has a 6 pack?? I only have 2 posts... Btw, you blew me away when you said you were woman...That's soo cool...


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## Built (Sep 10, 2009)

It is pretty cool to be a woman - all the COOL kids are doing it... 

Littleriddick, the plan you purchased worked because you ran a caloric deficit and you dropped bodyfat. 

There's no magic formula out there folks, that's how you drop bodyfat. Find a way to slightly starve and not mind, lift heavy shit and you'll lean out.

I'm glad it worked for you. Any method that reduces calorie intake while supporting muscle-retention (sufficient protein to remain nitrogen-positive in a deficit, heavy lifting to "risk-manage" the muscle) will do this.


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## littleriddick (Sep 10, 2009)

Built said:


> It is pretty cool to be a woman - all the COOL kids are doing it...
> 
> Littleriddick, the plan you purchased worked because you ran a caloric deficit and you dropped bodyfat.
> .



Actually, no I didn't .... I made a best effort to stay around 2200(-/+ 200 calories) calories each day except for my reward days. I won't lie, there were day's that I missed the mark(which is also documented), but there are other days where I went over 2200 .... again..best effort(it isn't easy), but the system encourages you to not go lower(like 400 -/+ than your daily calorie needs.) It's quite possible that the girl you selected as an example, could have ran a caloric deficit, but I didn't....I can understand your skepticism(as I sure was at 1st), and honestly I don't know why this worked for me and other methods have failed(pills, devices, books, etc...). I have nothing to compare it to and this is all new to me...This whole muscle scene is all new to me.....Remember I was a fatt a$$ 3 months ago - what do I know??


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## Built (Sep 10, 2009)

I didn't say you ate lower than your former maintenance, I said you ran a deficit; you ate lower than you required. You can either do this by eating less, or by burning off more. 

If you didn't eat less, you had to burn more. There is simply no other way to drop bodyfat. If you don't burn more than you consume - through exercise, or even by using drugs to raise your metabolic rate such as Clenbuterol and T3, and/or DNP**, Newton's Laws of Thermodynamics will prevail. 

**WHICH I AM NOT RECOMMENDING!!! <- disclaimer!

If you were a complete novice, it is possible you put on a few pounds of muscle while dropping a few pounds of fat over the course of three months. 

I don't know how much weight you lost so I will reserve comment until such time as this information is made available. 

Before and after pix would be helpful.

As an aside, I'm a middle-aged woman who weighs 140 lbs, and my maintenance is 2200 calories a day. 

You were clearly running a deficit.


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## littleriddick (Sep 10, 2009)

Built said:


> I didn't say you ate lower than your former maintenance, I said you ran a deficit; you ate lower than you required. You can either do this by eating less, or by burning off more.
> 
> If you didn't eat less, you had to burn more. There is simply no other way to drop bodyfat. If you don't burn more than you consume - through exercise, or even by using drugs to raise your metabolic rate such as Clenbuterol and T3, and/or DNP**, Newton's Laws of Thermodynamics will prevail.
> 
> ...



sorry, I wasn't understanding you...still a noob here, but appreciate your wisdom. Yes, I did burn more calories than I consumed. Workouts are 6 times a week. 4 days weight training, 2 days cardio. 

my before and after can be found here...my stats are here too...let me know what you think..

road2riddick blogspot com (fill in the dots)


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## kaoticone (Sep 10, 2009)

Here it is quickly as I need to get to bed:
Pre workout:
protein shake - 24 grams of protein, 1.5 grams of fat(not including milk)

breakfast:
oatmeal as usual:
200 cals, 2 grams of fat, 4 grams of protein,

snack: 1 cup of almonds: 72 grams of fat, protein 30 grams, 827 calories 

lunch: 6 inch turkey breast on wheat from subway:
280 cals, 5 grams of fat, 18 grams of protein

dinner:  no idea.
I need to plan this when I have the time, that's obviously all low, tomorrow night, I can plan something for saturday.


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## kaoticone (Sep 12, 2009)

ok, I am looking at foods with more protein, but my question now is this: How much or how often or for how long do I need to workout to burn the right amount of calories?


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## Built (Sep 12, 2009)

littleriddick said:


> sorry, I wasn't understanding you...still a noob here, but appreciate your wisdom. Yes, I did burn more calories than I consumed. Workouts are 6 times a week. 4 days weight training, 2 days cardio.
> 
> my before and after can be found here...my stats are here too...let me know what you think..
> 
> road2riddick blogspot com (fill in the dots)



You exercised off the weight. It'll work, but it's not the only way to create a deficit. Nice work by the way - 25lbs of fat lost and no net loss of muscle is nothing to sneeze at!



kaoticone said:


> ok, I am looking at foods with more protein, but my question now is this: How much or how often or for how long do I need to workout to burn the right amount of calories?



You don't need to exercise off any calories. You just need to lift heavy and eat less than you require.


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## kaoticone (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm looking as having this as one option for breakfast:
2 eggs, scrambled, 2 pieces of wheat toast and 1 tablespoon of jelly, 1 banana.

according 2 fit day, here are the nutrition facts on 1 whole egg cooked, scrambled, doesn't sound right, does it?




Here are the facts according to fitday:
2 scrambled eggs, 2 pieces of wheat toast with 1 tbsp. of jelly, 1 banana

2eggs:
cals: 730
P: 48
F: 52

2 slices of wheat toast:
cals: 150
P: 6
F: 2

1 Tbsp. of jelly
cals: 33.7
P: 0.1
F: 0.1

Banana:
cals: 105
P: 2.5
F: 0.8


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## Marat (Sep 13, 2009)

That is for a cup of egg. Not for one egg.


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## kaoticone (Sep 13, 2009)

oh. here is for 1 large egg:



I'll update my breakfast up there.

2 scrambled eggs, 2 pieces of wheat toast with 1 tbsp. of jelly, 1 banana

2eggs:
cals: 204
P: 13.9
F: 14.8

Wheat Toast:
cals: 150
P: 6
F: 2

1 Tbsp. of jelly
cals: 33.7
P: 0.1
F: 0.1

Banana:
cals: 105
P: 2.5
F: 0.8


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## kaoticone (Sep 14, 2009)

I'm starting to think about this, it seems like the more I try to create meals to add to 180 grams of protein, the more it seems like I'll actually be eating A LOT more food than I normally do. is that not gonna backfire somehow?


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## Built (Sep 14, 2009)

I don't understand your problem. I eat over 200g of protein daily and I have no trouble doing so.


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## kaoticone (Sep 15, 2009)

Built said:


> I don't understand your problem. I eat over 200g of protein daily and I have no trouble doing so.


I'm probably just paranoid/confused. seems like I'd be eating more calories too. I'm sure it'll work out.


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## kaoticone (Sep 15, 2009)

I'm sorta stumped on lunch options. Here is 1:
2 6.5oz cans of tune in water(drained) with 2 tbsp. of mayo, 3 pieces of wheat toast.
2 cans of tuna:
P - 85g
F - 2.7 g

2 tbsp mayo:
P - 0.3 g
F - 21.5 g

3 pieces of wheat toast:
P - 9.5g
F - 3.1 g

Thoughts?

Here is my option 2:
2 boneless(can I buy it that way?) chicken breast spiced or marinated,  with 2 cups of brown rice with a little butter.  Nutrition to come later when I have time.


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## Perdido (Sep 15, 2009)

I've ditched the bread & mayo awhile ago and dump the tuna on top of a salad with just enough dressing to taste for my lunches. Just a suggestion.
Oh and you can do the same with boneless skinless whatever...


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## kaoticone (Sep 15, 2009)

rahaas said:


> I've ditched the bread & mayo awhile ago and dump the tuna on top of a salad with just enough dressing to taste for my lunches. Just a suggestion.
> Oh and you can do the same with boneless skinless whatever...


Not a bad idea, thanks. 
I just figured that the bread would help with the fiber. I'm thinking the brown rice may have to go, I think too much fiber might constipate me.


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## Marat (Sep 15, 2009)

Do you track your carbohydrate intake? It seems that you never mention it in any of your meals.


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## kaoticone (Sep 15, 2009)

m11 said:


> Do you track your carbohydrate intake? It seems that you never mention it in any of your meals.


no, I have not thought of that, all that's ever been mentioned is calories, protein, and fat.


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## Marat (Sep 15, 2009)

Built said:


> *Try this: *
> Set a calorie level at 2000 a day for now. Try to get in about 180g of protein and about 90g of fat, and about 25g of fibre from food. Your carbs should settle in at or around 100g a day



Do that. 

Carbohydrates contain energy, therefore you need to take them into consideration.


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## socialgym (Sep 16, 2009)

kaoticone said:


> A friend who is a nutritionist and a trainer recommend that I use a bicycle, even one of those stationary ones for a good cardio workout to burn fat. what do you all suggest on that? I really need to burn fat.



Ever think of buying the Cyclotrainer attachment for your total gym? It gets you great cardio and is a lot less expensive than a stationary bike. We are Total Gym affiliates and have an XLS in our office so if you need tips on how to burn fat on it I'd be happy to post a video for you and show you how the Cyclo Trainer works. Otherwise it sounds like you need to up the cardio (although what you're doing is good...60-85% max heart rate= fat burning zone. Exercises like jogging are great for that). Muscle weighs more than fat as you know, so don't worry too much unless you really just want to weight less. In that case, you should lift lighter weights and just do less weight lifting in general and more cardio. Let me know if you'd like more Total Gym info on the Cyclo Trainer. Good luck!


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## kaoticone (Sep 16, 2009)

socialgym said:


> Ever think of buying the Cyclotrainer attachment for your total gym? It gets you great cardio and is a lot less expensive than a stationary bike. We are Total Gym affiliates and have an XLS in our office so if you need tips on how to burn fat on it I'd be happy to post a video for you and show you how the Cyclo Trainer works. Otherwise it sounds like you need to up the cardio (although what you're doing is good...60-85% max heart rate= fat burning zone. Exercises like jogging are great for that). Muscle weighs more than fat as you know, so don't worry too much unless you really just want to weight less. In that case, you should lift lighter weights and just do less weight lifting in general and more cardio. Let me know if you'd like more Total Gym info on the Cyclo Trainer. Good luck!


I have the first or second total gym. everyone here already told me to stick with lifting on my total gym, so that's what I'm doing. I don't know if my heart rate gets very high during my workouts.


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## kaoticone (Sep 16, 2009)

1 small question. How long should my workout last? I usually workout for 30 minutes to 45 minutes as I understand that working out too long can have negative effects. Thoughts?


----------



## Perdido (Sep 16, 2009)

socialgym said:


> Ever think of buying the Cyclotrainer attachment for your total gym?



Typical. Don't offer advise just "hey you need to buy this or that and you'll burn fat like crazy" effin spammers.

Typically keeping workouts under an hour is good unless you're an elite athlete IMO.


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## T_man (Sep 16, 2009)

Katicone if you're on a cut, why have something like a banana and jelly for breakfast when you're already having 2 slices of wheat bread. The idea is to increase protein, not carbs. Maybe add some fibrous veggies or some low cal fruit there instead, bananas are not a good idea to add to existing meals on a cut.


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## Perdido (Sep 16, 2009)

^ agree. I've taken a tip from Kelju and when eating my eggs in the morning I top them off with salsa. I've even topped them with coleslaw when I ran out of salsa and wasn't bad at all. I try to get my veggies in all of my meals.


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## kaoticone (Sep 16, 2009)

good observation.  maybe an apple instead? I'm confused even more now on exercise, my friend who's a nutritionist says I need to run instead of weightlifting, he thinks I should start off with jogging slowly, and move my way up, but I need to do at least 30 minutes a day, then move to weight training on my total gym.


----------



## T_man (Sep 16, 2009)

kaoticone said:


> good observation.  maybe an apple instead? I'm confused even more now on exercise, my friend who's a nutritionist says I need to run instead of weightlifting, he thinks I should start off with jogging slowly, and move my way up, but I need to do at least 30 minutes a day, then move to weight training on my total gym.



Weight loss from a bodybuilding point of view and fat loss from a generic point of view are different things. Your nutritionist is probably a general nutritionist who wants you to lose weight, not fat. A little running will definately be beneficial for health reasons but if you want to hang on to your muscle you need to keep it low. Remember your body wants to do things as efficiently as possible, and if it means burning muscle that is taking up alot of energy and not assisting you running (aka type 2 fibers) it wont have a problem losing them! Your body doesn't care how it looks.


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## Built (Sep 16, 2009)

Your friend the nutritionist needs to take a look at the forces that hit the feet of an overweight jogger. 

If you love to run, and you're fat, lose the weight, THEN run. 

Cardio is easily the WORST way to try to lose weight. It just doesn't create that much of a deficit, and it does nothing to retain lean mass.


----------



## kaoticone (Sep 16, 2009)

Built said:


> Your friend the nutritionist needs to take a look at the forces that hit the feet of an overweight jogger.
> 
> If you love to run, and you're fat, lose the weight, THEN run.
> 
> Cardio is easily the WORST way to try to lose weight. It just doesn't create that much of a deficit, and it does nothing to retain lean mass.


I think you are right. I do think I need to work out more than 3 days a week, but I could be wrong, I don't want to overdo it. By the way, he suggested I read men's health, he says it has lots of good nutrition and health info, so I subscribed for a year.


----------



## Built (Sep 16, 2009)

Three days a week while dropping fat is just about perfect. Pretend exercise burns no calories at all; that way you know where to create the caloric deficit: your diet.  

I like men's health, but just for the pictures. 

I sure as shit wouldn't follow the advice in there.


----------



## kaoticone (Sep 16, 2009)

Built said:


> Three days a week while dropping fat is just about perfect. Pretend exercise burns no calories at all; that way you know where to create the caloric deficit: your diet.
> 
> I like men's health, but just for the pictures.
> 
> I sure as shit wouldn't follow the advice in there.


Great. I am confident that I will lose. I still am trying to work up my diet though. Question, someone said to have a salad topped with tune instead of eating it as a sandwich, should the salad have veggies or dressing?  and how much protein is salad?


----------



## Built (Sep 16, 2009)

Eat whatever you like. If you eat fewer calories than you require, you will lose. 

Carbs may make you hungrier. If so, you have two choices:
1. if you hate being hungry, avoid eating a lot of carbohydrate and instead focus on protein, fibrous veggies and healthy fats.
2. if you love being hungry (don't laugh, a surprising number of people don't feel like they are "winning" unless they're hungry all the time), eat a low fat diet, lots of complex carbs at each meal, and make sure to eat six or more tiny meals a day. This will ensure maximal discomfort while dieting.


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## kaoticone (Sep 17, 2009)

lol, yes, I desire maximum discomfort while losing weight to feel like I'm REALLY working at it. I needed a good laugh.


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## T_man (Sep 17, 2009)

Haha feeling hungry just makes me feel like my muscles are being burned  I don't like it. Maybe I'm destined to be fat


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## kaoticone (Sep 17, 2009)

I got this cool app on my iphone that will help me track my calories. it says I need to have 2,176 calories a day to lose the weight and reach 215 pounds in 1 year ,sounds crazy. By the way, I thought whet toast would be good with breakfast for a complex carb, what does anyone recommend?


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## kaoticone (Sep 19, 2009)

I'm stuck on what would be good for dinner, my current listed options unchanged mean I have to make up 80 or so grams of protein at dinner, so what can anyone suggest?


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## kaoticone (Sep 19, 2009)

Here is an idea for dinner: lots of protein.


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## T_man (Sep 19, 2009)

Wheat toast is fine as long as it fits your macros at the end of the day. Try to think of daily targets rather than meal targets. The meals are just the breakdown of the big picture.


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## kaoticone (Sep 19, 2009)

I am thinking in terms of daily, less than 2k calories, at least 180 grams of protein, etc as discussed before, but wheat toast doesn't offer much nutritional value, but I don't know what to replace it with.


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## Built (Sep 19, 2009)

You can't think of any other food you enjoy?


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## kaoticone (Sep 19, 2009)

Of course  I can, but I'm trying to limit calories with the most protein, fat, and fiber I can get. as far as the wheat toast, seems like empty calories, maybe if I had a different bread or bagel or something with eggs for breakfast.


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## Built (Sep 19, 2009)

Are you specifically looking for a carbohydrate? How many calories are we working with here?


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## kaoticone (Sep 20, 2009)

Built said:


> Are you specifically looking for a carbohydrate? How many calories are we working with here?


I'm not really looking for a carb, I believe you said we would shoot for around 2000 calories a day, it was o the previous page I think. By the way, I deleted that iphone app.


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## Built (Sep 20, 2009)

No, that's not what I meant. 

You're looking for a substitute for TOAST. How many calories do you have left in your budget? Just pick something with that many calories and you're done. 

I don't see what the problem is here. Pick any food you like.


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## Marat (Sep 20, 2009)

kaoticone said:


> I believe you said we would shoot for around 2000 calories a day



Focus on the individual macronutrients more so than the total calorie value.


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## kaoticone (Sep 20, 2009)

m11 said:


> Focus on the individual macronutrients more so than the total calorie value.


Macronutrient?



Built said:


> No, that's not what I meant.
> 
> You're looking for a substitute for TOAST. How many calories do you have left in your budget? Just pick something with that many calories and you're done.
> 
> I don't see what the problem is here. Pick any food you like.


Will do.


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## kaoticone (Oct 10, 2009)

well, things are going well, I'm not skinny, but I never expected overnight results. My workout seems to be going well too, small muscle gains. I continue to read info I find on this site, I was emailed something called bigfatlies by this site, and in it it says that cutting calories can have undesired effects, if you cut too many calories, so I'm still shooting for at least 1700-1800 calories a day. The only problem workout I have is my legs, my feet are too big for the total gym straps, and I'm working out in tri-sets now, it's great.


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## kaoticone (Nov 6, 2009)

Well, another update, things are moving along at the usual snail's pace. I feel like I'm not getting a good enough workout, but I may be. a friend recommended MX-LS7, but I don't know that that will actually help me. Also, I am having trouble losing more fat on my chest. My diet is going decently, not perfect, but I'm trying hard and doing fairly well I think.


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## jmorrison (Nov 6, 2009)

I went through almost the same thing with the odd areas holding fat.

I went from 265lbs 30% BF to 208 13% since february.  During the last bit of that, I could NOT get my love handles or some fat around the lower part of my chest to go away, even though I had clearly defined abs at that point.

I think it was Built that broke it to me in the best analogy I have heard yet:  _*No matter what you do, you can't drain the deep end of the pool first.*_

You are predisposed to carry fat in certain areas of your body.  They are the first areas on your body to collect fat and the last to let them go.  You will pretty much get ripped everywhere else before these areas will give up the fight.

Just keep it up, if the inches and pounds are still coming off, you are headed the right way.


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## kaoticone (Nov 7, 2009)

well, pounds are going up as muscle builds. I'm really wanting to incorporate some cardio in with my weight training via a stationary bike or something. any suggestions are appreciated.


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## jmorrison (Nov 7, 2009)

If you are gaining weight, you are not running a caloric deficit and your fat loss will be negligible.  

Caloric surplus = weight gain and muscle/fat building

Caloric Deficit = weight loss and muscle/fat loss

So if you are gaining weight, but your goal is still to cut off fat, I would reevaluate your calorie intake.

As fat as cardio, personally I did 2 days a week of HIIT training on a stationary bike (couldnt do sprints on the oil rig) and it was plenty.  

Good luck!


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## kaoticone (Nov 8, 2009)

I haven't touched a scale, so I may very well be losing, but I feel stronger  and thus assume muscle is growing and my weight might be going up. I'll see when I can weigh myself.


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## danzik17 (Nov 8, 2009)

kaoticone said:


> I haven't touched a scale, so I may very well be losing, but I feel stronger  and thus assume muscle is growing and my weight might be going up. I'll see when I can weigh myself.



Strength gains can be neurological as well, meaning using your muscles more efficiently. 

 You see this happening a lot of the times in new lifters - they can barely lift any weight at the start but rapidly progress within literally weeks.  It's not that they're gaining superhuman amounts of muscle (though they are gaining in general), it's that they are learning to actually use the muscle that they already have.


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## njc (Nov 14, 2009)

m11 said:


> Can we agree that one of the principle matters that lead to success whether during a cut or bulk is compliance?
> The OP expressed his feelings towards having to eat 5 times each day. Although it is accepted that lifestyle changes do need to be made for him to be successful, I don't feel that increasing his meal frequency needs to be one.
> 
> There may or may not be benefits to frequent feedings. The intermittent fasting community has a little more information on the subject. Here's P-funk's podcast with Brad Pilon, author of Eat,Stop,Eat. There's some interesting information in both the podcast and the book.
> ...


 

Frequent feedings keep me satisfied throughout the day and make it far less likely that I will gorge on something bad if I come across it.  I think a lof of people are like that.


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## njc (Nov 14, 2009)

danzik17 said:


> Strength gains can be neurological as well, meaning using your muscles more efficiently.
> 
> You see this happening a lot of the times in new lifters - they can barely lift any weight at the start but rapidly progress within literally weeks. It's not that they're gaining superhuman amounts of muscle (though they are gaining in general), it's that they are learning to actually use the muscle that they already have.


 

Yeah neurological adaptations occur before muscular adaptations in beginners.


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## Built (Nov 14, 2009)

m11 said:


> Can we agree that one of the principle matters that lead to success whether during a cut or bulk is compliance?
> The OP expressed his feelings towards having to eat 5 times each day. Although it is accepted that lifestyle changes do need to be made for him to be successful, I don't feel that increasing his meal frequency needs to be one.
> 
> There may or may not be benefits to frequent feedings. The intermittent fasting community has a little more information on the subject. Here's P-funk's podcast with Brad Pilon, author of Eat,Stop,Eat. There's some interesting information in both the podcast and the book.
> ...





njc said:


> Frequent feedings keep me satisfied throughout the day and make it far less likely that I will gorge on something bad if I come across it.  I think a lot of people are like that.



I think a lot of people ARE like that, njc. 

I also think a lot of people AREN'T. 

I find it easier to not eat, than to eat frequently. I'm happier being stuffed at least once a day (guys, I know that sounds dirty when I say it, leave it alone...), than feeling like I need to keep an iron grip on my portion sizes all day long with microsnacks. 

Either way, as m11 said, it's all about the deficit. Good to know it doesn't matter how many meals you eat to accomplish this end. 

Question for you njc - m11 and I have been obese. Have you? I wonder if being "formerly fat" has anything to do with this preference?



njc said:


> Yeah neurological adaptations occur before muscular adaptations in beginners.



That's interesting - I didn't know this! It kinda makes sense in my head though, you get such profound apparent strength increases initially. 

I'd like to read more about this - got anything for me?


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## kaoticone (Nov 14, 2009)

Built said:


> I find it easier to not eat, than to eat frequently. I'm happier being stuffed at least once a day (guys, I know that sounds dirty when I say it, leave it alone...),


I could not stop laughing when I read this because it's the first thought that popped into my head!!!
Anyway, I now almost have no hunger, I eat 3 smaller meals a day, my waistline has slightly diminished, and I don't even feel hungry half the time, I just know it's time to eat, because when I wait until I feel hungry, I'm too hungry and don't get full. and now less food seems to fill my stomach and make me feel full as much as larger portions used to. Although sometimes after working  out I feel nauseous.
I feel like a juggler, I started with 1 ball, really 1 step, and added another which was the eating at a deficit, and am ready to add another by increasing my workout by adding a little cardio on a stationary bike or something if I can decide on one.


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## hardrockABS (Nov 15, 2009)

cool! i discovered this thread


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## njc (Nov 17, 2009)

Built said:


> I think a lot of people ARE like that, njc.
> 
> I also think a lot of people AREN'T.
> 
> ...


 
With regards to the first statement I've always been pretty lean actually. That's an interesting point you make though. Do you think that for some people who have issues with food that frequent feedings might be a bad plan? Kind of like an alcoholic who can't drink in moderation?

With regards to the second I don't have any literature on it. I just remember it being an essay question when I was an undergrad but I don't remember the mechanism or even if the mechanism has been explained to this point. Increased reqruitment of  the myofibrils (obviously) but how?...increased calcium storage/release capacity from the sarcoplasmic reticulum? Decreased acetylcholine reuptake from the endplate?....just some wild guesses.


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