# HCG : Is it worth it?



## Pituitary (Nov 17, 2010)

In the past I have used HCG in small dosages throughout cycle to prevent testicular atrophy or at the end of the cycle just before the start of PCT. In my experience I find that this does indeed either prevert shrinkage or get them back up to size depening on the methodology used. The problem I find is this:-

_1. Within about a week of cessetation of HCG they shrink back down again and remain that way until PCT has cleared. So my question is there any point in using it at all? _

However from reading up on the drug it seems logically to include it in my cycles since it stimulates the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone by mimicking Leutenizing Hormone. But having atrophied testicles for most of PCT seems to contradict using it in the first place.

_2. Another question is that there are artcicles out there that state that IGF-LR3 will also prevent shrinkage or bring them back in the same way. I have never found this to be true. The IGF-LR3 I have used is definately real. Has anyone else found this to be true?_

*Thanks in advance *


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## Gamer2be08 (Nov 17, 2010)

HCG is worth it.
Your testes wont go into full atrophy that fast after cycle.
Once your pituitary starts producing a little LH/FSH, your testes will be re-stimulated!


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## SilentBob187 (Nov 17, 2010)

A pretty comprehensive posting on hCG use during cycle (and why,) from Eric Potratz:

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/p...cg-unraveled-valuable-resource-reference.html

I personally found it very informative.  It also discusses, though not in great detail, Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3,) which I'm guessing is IGF-LR3 but I could be completely wrong.


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## HATEFULone (Nov 17, 2010)

Interesting read silentbob, I'm yet to use hcg but I might include it in my next test p cycle.  Also does resveratrol help to fight testicular atrophy, I know it helps increase sperm counts in rats according to a study but didn't say anything regarding testicular size that I saw.


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## Buzzard (Nov 17, 2010)

Hcg is good for numerous reasons:

1) keeps your balls swinging
2) helps with free testosterone.
3) it ups my libido & performance
4) makes PCT easier.


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## Pituitary (Nov 18, 2010)

SilentBob187 said:


> A pretty comprehensive posting on hCG use during cycle (and why,) from Eric Potratz:
> 
> http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/p...cg-unraveled-valuable-resource-reference.html
> 
> I personally found it very informative.  It also discusses, though not in great detail, Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3,) which I'm guessing is IGF-LR3 but I could be completely wrong.



Many thanks, this answers my questions. Particular the section that states that the size of your testicles does not necessary correlate to the abilty to produce testosterone : I quote:

_"Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) So do not judge how "shutdown" you are by testicular size!"
_
The post also suggests that its better to run HCG is small dosages throughout rather than at the end, since you will respond better at this time and that you should not run HCG during PCT.  Note I knew that it should not be run during PCT from other articles but yet people still seem to insist on doing this on other forums.

So thanks again.


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## Starchild (Nov 18, 2010)

Pituitary said:


> In the past I have used HCG in small dosages throughout cycle to prevent testicular atrophy or at the end of the cycle just before the start of PCT. In my experience I find that this does indeed either prevert shrinkage or get them back up to size depening on the methodology used. The problem I find is this:-
> 
> _1. Within about a week of cessetation of HCG they shrink back down again and remain that way until PCT has cleared. So my question is there any point in using it at all? _
> 
> ...





what your goal is? return to an enlarged testicouls shape,after a AAS cycle?
ok..when u use HCG u need to know to take it just only for a period of 15
days at maximum. 2,000IU (till 5,000IU at max.) every 3-5days.
However u need to know HCG will just only 'mimc' LH signal....so,within soon,u'll return to have small testiculous.
So,u need Clomid after your HCG cycle...and your testiculous will return to the right 
dimension


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## Pituitary (Nov 18, 2010)

Starchild said:


> what your goal is? return to an enlarged testicouls shape,after a AAS cycle?
> ok..when u use HCG u need to know to take it just only for a period of 15
> days at maximum. 2,000IU (till 5,000IU at max.) every 3-5days.
> However u need to know HCG will just only 'mimc' LH signal....so,within soon,u'll return to have small testiculous.
> ...



I was thinking of taking it three times a week (250iu x 3) from day 14 right through the whole cycle non stop, as stated in the article that 'SilentBob187' kindly shared. So is that not ok then, since you state that it cant be taken for more than 15 days maximum?  Im confused now lol


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## SloppyJ (Nov 18, 2010)

It's not expensive so I don't see how it's not worth it.


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## MDR (Nov 18, 2010)

I think it is fine to use throughout your cycle.  250 twice a week works well for me.


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## Pituitary (Nov 19, 2010)

Sounds good. Do you use it from day 1 or from 14 days in (as stated in the aforementioned article).  I would have thought it be better to use it right from the start myself


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## HATEFULone (Nov 19, 2010)

Depending on the length of your cycle, but usually it is started anywhere from 2 weeks in to halfway through, depends on who you ask and what you read.  Main thing is to get it started early so you get those boys back.


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## Pituitary (Nov 19, 2010)

HATEFULone said:


> Depending on the length of your cycle, but usually it is started anywhere from 2 weeks in to halfway through, depends on who you ask and what you read.  Main thing is to get it started early so you get those boys back.



Yea, sounds good. Im a fan of 12 week cycles; 8 week sus + 4 weeks prop (at end) but maybe stacking with Deca or Eq next time so obviously if thats the case would be more like 16 weeks


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## HATEFULone (Nov 19, 2010)

Pituitary said:


> Yea, sounds good. Im a fan of 12 week cycles; 8 week sus + 4 weeks prop (at end) but maybe stacking with Deca or Eq next time so obviously if thats the case would be more like 16 weeks



My last cycle was 16 weeks of test p and eq, pinned EOD, loved it, no hcg use, next time I definitely will use it though just better to be safe than sorry.


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## heavyiron (Nov 19, 2010)

500iu HCG twice weekly is about minimum to restore ITT levels.


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## MDR (Nov 19, 2010)

Pituitary said:


> Sounds good. Do you use it from day 1 or from 14 days in (as stated in the aforementioned article).  I would have thought it be better to use it right from the start myself



I start from the beginning.  I agree with Heavy that 500 wk is the minimum.  I've tried less and it doesn't work nearly as well.  I may want to try more next time around.  I've done it post-cycle as well, many years ago, and I can tell you it does not work nearly as well as throughout the cycle, either.


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## Buzzard (Nov 19, 2010)

MDR said:


> I start from the beginning. I agree with Heavy that 500 wk is the minimum. I've tried less and it doesn't work nearly as well. I may want to try more next time around. I've done it post-cycle as well, many years ago, and I can tell you it does not work nearly as well as throughout the cycle, either.


 
But he said 500iu 2X week (1000iu/Week).


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## MDR (Nov 19, 2010)

Buzzard said:


> But he said 500iu 2X week (1000iu/Week).



Right you are, and I meant to say the same thing.  Probably wrote 250X2 'cause that is what I took for so long.  Sorry about the misprint.  Last cycle 500X2 worked much better for me.  Thanks for pointing out the error.


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## Pituitary (Nov 19, 2010)

500iu twice a week (1000iu) sounds good to me. Will try this


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## Gamer2be08 (Nov 21, 2010)

*IMO, you can run HCG last 3 weeks leading to PCT and be perfectly fine.. 
Cheaper.
Less injects throughout.
Less estrogen.
Leydig cells wont be desensitized..*

*No need to run most of cycle..
That article is a marketing scam.. IMO
*


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## MDR (Nov 21, 2010)

Gamer2be08 said:


> *IMO, you can run HCG last 3 weeks leading to PCT and be perfectly fine..
> Cheaper.
> Less injects throughout.
> Less estrogen.
> ...



In my experience this just does not work nearly as well.  The benefit from upping my dose to 500 2x a week throughout my cycle compared to 250 2x a week (which I'd been doing for years) was noticeable for me, and my PCT was very smooth.  Blood work after PCT was also excellent.  It is not expensive, and personally I want to make sure that I am doing all I can to restore natural production.


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## Astaroth (Nov 22, 2010)

supposing u'ld want to use teslac(testolattone) in the place of clomid.
all what i know is only about much more expensive price than clomid,while i know nothing about it and its effectiveness to restore hpta. is it more efficacious or same than clomid? (i'm not able to find it at my pharmcy)


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## juggernaut (Nov 22, 2010)

Starchild said:


> what your goal is? return to an enlarged testicouls shape,after a AAS cycle?
> ok..when u use HCG u need to know to take it just only for a period of 15
> days at maximum. 2,000IU (till 5,000IU at max.) every 3-5days.
> However u need to know HCG will just only 'mimc' LH signal....so,within soon,u'll return to have small testiculous.
> ...



what the fuck are testiculous?


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## Gamer2be08 (Nov 22, 2010)

MDR said:


> In my experience this just does not work nearly as well. The benefit from upping my dose to 500 2x a week throughout my cycle compared to 250 2x a week (which I'd been doing for years) was noticeable for me, and my PCT was very smooth. Blood work after PCT was also excellent. It is not expensive, and personally I want to make sure that I am doing all I can to restore natural production.


 
Running it at the end is what I did, and I am having a great PCT as of now..
Random boners throughout day.
High libido and energy..
Hav not lost size..


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## MDR (Nov 22, 2010)

Gamer2be08 said:


> Running it at the end is what I did, and I am having a great PCT as of now..
> Random boners throughout day.
> High libido and energy..
> Hav not lost size..



Hopefully you will be able to restore your ITT levels permanently.  If you are able to do that running Hcg for only a few weeks at the end of your cycle, that's great.  Does not work for me, though.  Like Heavyiron already stated, 500 twice weekly is about the minimum to fully restore ITT levels.  In my case, this is very true.   I was using half that amount for years, and my results were not nearly as good, according to my end-cycle bloodwork after PCT.


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## HATEFULone (Nov 22, 2010)

MDR said:


> Hopefully you will be able to restore your ITT levels permanently.  If you are able to do that running Hcg for only a few weeks at the end of your cycle, that's great.  Does not work for me, though.  Like Heavyiron already stated, 500 twice weekly is about the minimum to fully restore ITT levels.  In my case, this is very true.   I was using half that amount for years, and my results were not nearly as good, according to my end-cycle bloodwork after PCT.



Any chance you would be able to post those lab results, it would be great to compare.


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## HereToStudy (Nov 22, 2010)

Gamer2be08 said:


> *That article is a marketing scam.. IMO*


 
Hello Gamer,

I am curious when Eric started selling HCG? If that article was designed to simply sell HCG, I want to see if my product credit can be applied to it.

(If the sarcasm is being missed, we have no reason to "market" HCG)


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## Trauma1 (Nov 22, 2010)

Gamer2be08 said:


> *IMO, you can run HCG last 3 weeks leading to PCT and be perfectly fine..
> Cheaper.
> Less injects throughout.
> Less estrogen.
> ...



A marketing scam?  

Gamer, you obviously don't understand the complexities at work here in both the potential pathophysiology or comprised endrocrine functions that are involved. Do you realize that if you've desensitized the testes enough that you can lose permanent function at varying levels? Yes, this means you can become a victim of primary hypogonadism and be on TRT the rest of your life because you're testes no longer respond to LH/FSH stimulation, and your ITT/INSL3levels are no longer therapeutic for optimal homeostatic function. I don't know about you, but I don't want to live on artificial test the rest of my life...

Refer to this point from the article:



> To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)
> 
> Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) So do not judge how "shutdown" you are by testicular size!




So, if you're going to attempt refute something you probably should have some scientific substance to further support your "anecdotal" views. There are plenty to support ours here as listed in the references. To come in here and say this is a "marketing scam" is about as ridiculous as your unsubstantiated views on the topic.

Haters gonna hate...


-John


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## ryansm (Nov 22, 2010)

Gamer2be08 said:


> *IMO, you can run HCG last 3 weeks leading to PCT and be perfectly fine..
> Cheaper.
> Less injects throughout.
> Less estrogen.
> ...



Can you post your reasoning for this? Studies for this protocol?? Feedback from others??? I'm just curious, and would like to know why you think this method is viable.


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## Trauma1 (Nov 22, 2010)

MDR said:


> In my experience this just does not work nearly as well.  The benefit from upping my dose to 500 2x a week throughout my cycle compared to 250 2x a week (which I'd been doing for years) was noticeable for me, and my PCT was very smooth.  Blood work after PCT was also excellent.  It is not expensive, and personally I want to make sure that I am doing all I can to restore natural production.



Awesome to hear you've had very good success with your regimen, here. How long were your cycles?

I would never cycle without hCG ever again. It's amazing when you do it right how much easier PCT is; as well as helping to maintain your hard earned gains.




-John


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## Trauma1 (Nov 22, 2010)

Pituitary said:


> Many thanks, this answers my questions. Particular the section that states that the size of your testicles does not necessary correlate to the abilty to produce testosterone : I quote:
> 
> _"Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) So do not judge how "shutdown" you are by testicular size!"
> _
> ...



Glad to hear the article has helped answer some of your questions. Running hCG in PCT is absolutely pointless. The whole goal of PCT is to recover your natural hormonal homeostasis. 

hCG is a peptide hormone that mimics LH and will further inhibit LH secretion while it's present in the body. This is why you want to use hCG while on cycle to maintain testicular function, and then drop it a few weeks before your PCT so it clears your body. At that point, you're testes will be primed for LH stimulation and will get you upregulated fairly quickly.




-John


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## MDR (Nov 22, 2010)

Trauma1 said:


> Awesome to hear you've had very good success with your regimen, here. How long were your cycles?
> 
> I would never cycle without hCG ever again. It's amazing when you do it right how much easier PCT is; as well as helping to maintain your hard earned gains.
> 
> ...



Cycles were both 16 weeks.  Doubling the amount taken each week made all the difference in the world.


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## blergs. (Nov 22, 2010)

Gamer2be08 said:


> Running it at the end is what I did, and I am having a great PCT as of now..
> Random boners throughout day.
> High libido and energy..
> Hav not lost size..


  using HCG during PCT is a very stupid idea.........
HCGenerate i would DEFF recommend with or after PCT .
but NOT HCG
the last 4-6weeks of cycle leading upto pct but NOT INTO PCT.

you will only make recovery harder using it during pct.


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## shootquads (Nov 22, 2010)

MDR said:


> Cycles were both 16 weeks. Doubling the amount taken each week made all the difference in the world.


 
I know several people who use slightly different HCG regimens, mostly TRT folks who also cycle, and their total weekly dose adds up to 500-1500IU (similar to the ranges being discussed here IOW).  Some do 150IU/day, some do 250IU-300IU 3x weekly, one does 750IU twice a week.

So my question is, would there be any benefit to splitting the HCG dose of say 1000IU/wk into 3 separate shots instead of 2?  Maybe 250-300 3x weekly?  Not that I am a fan of more shots (time consuming, busy life, etc), just curious as to your thoughts/experiences.


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## MDR (Nov 22, 2010)

Interesting question.  I don't think there is any problem going with three shots, so long as you spread the shots out over the course of the week.  I'm not sure if there is any real benefit over taking two shots-one every 3-4 days.  I have always done it in two weekly doses.


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## Astaroth (Nov 23, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> what the fuck are testiculous?



sorry man, 'testicles' i meant. now i'm Astaroth. does anyone can reply abou Astaroth' question above about Teslac and Clomid..what differences. which between them two the most efficacious ,powerfull(i
n order to get HPTA to restore) is? sorry my gramma


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## MDR (Nov 23, 2010)

Astaroth said:


> sorry man, 'testicles' i meant. now i'm Astaroth. does anyone can reply abou Astaroth' question above about Teslac and Clomid..what differences. which between them two the most efficacious ,powerfull(i
> n order to get HPTA to restore) is? sorry my gramma



You might want to start your own thread so more people will see your topic.  Also, it is considered a bit rude to co-opt someone else's thread.


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## Astaroth (Nov 24, 2010)

MDR said:


> You might want to start your own thread so more people will see your topic.  Also, it is considered a bit rude to co-opt someone else's thread.



ok thanx,so i get to open a thread of mine called 'the best ways to restore the whole glandular system'


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## MDR (Nov 24, 2010)

Astaroth said:


> ok thanx,so i get to open a thread of mine called 'the best ways to restore the whole glandular system'



Call it whatever you want.  I was just letting you know that you won't get much response co-opting someone else's thread.  This thread is about Hcg.


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## Gamer2be08 (Nov 24, 2010)

blergs. said:


> using HCG during PCT is a very stupid idea.........
> HCGenerate i would DEFF recommend with or after PCT .
> but NOT HCG
> the last 4-6weeks of cycle leading upto pct but NOT INTO PCT.
> ...



Where in my post did I say I was using it during PCT?
It clearly says before PCT.. It says use HCG then start PCT.. AFTER..


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## Gamer2be08 (Nov 24, 2010)

Trauma1 said:


> A marketing scam?
> 
> Gamer, you obviously don't understand the complexities at work here in both the potential pathophysiology or comprised endrocrine functions that are involved. Do you realize that if you've desensitized the testes enough that you can lose permanent function at varying levels? Yes, this means you can become a victim of primary hypogonadism and be on TRT the rest of your life because you're testes no longer respond to LH/FSH stimulation, and your ITT/INSL3levels are no longer therapeutic for optimal homeostatic function. I don't know about you, but I don't want to live on artificial test the rest of my life...
> 
> ...



I do understand. 
I know that PP does not market in HCG.
NOR DID I MEAN IT WAS A SCAM BY YOU OR PP...
Me hate against you? Honestly? Come on man.. I help promote some of your products.. Help as in present tense... A lot of PCT implements are scams is what I am saying..  On a source forum I frequent, there is a thread thousands posts long about PCT, SERM and HCG scams, used to market..


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## Astaroth (Nov 27, 2010)

MDR said:


> This thread is about Hcg.



well man,so i want to talk about HCG too. at first a question please.
I saw u all type the word TRT. what does it mean?
second: may we talk about Clomid ,tormifene too ..or just only about HCG?
if it's possible i'ldf like to know the truth about Clomid to be a bit toxic for liver and prostate while Tormifene doesn't. is it true?
so ,in order to restore your right own HPTA function could u take Hcg+Tormifene in the place of Hcg+Clomid? i don't wanna liver & prostate issue, and someone told me tormifene is better and more sure then clomid.

third question is about Teslac. what do u think about it? those people told me teslac has anti-estrogens propriety like clomid,so u can get prostate and liver issue the same. so they suggest tormifene.what do u think about?


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## cavtrooper96 (Nov 28, 2010)

Im thinking I might want to bump my HCG dosage up from 250x2 per week to 500x2 per week now. I have enough on hand for my current cycle at 500iu per week. So does anyone know a good place I can get some more without having to pay out the ass for western union and for shipping plus the HCG? What I have now I got with a bunch of other stuff so shipping was free. You can PM me if you know.


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## moarwhey123 (Dec 1, 2010)

definetly worth it depending on how harsh the cycle was
makes PCT a lot easier.


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## Trauma1 (Dec 1, 2010)

Gamer2be08 said:


> I do understand.
> I know that PP does not market in HCG.
> NOR DID I MEAN IT WAS A SCAM BY YOU OR PP...
> Me hate against you? Honestly? Come on man.. I help promote some of your products.. Help as in present tense... A lot of PCT implements are scams is what I am saying..  On a source forum I frequent, there is a thread thousands posts long about PCT, SERM and HCG scams, used to market..



Well, what would you think I would assume when you post this:



Gamer2be08 said:


> *IMO, you can run HCG last 3 weeks leading to PCT and be perfectly fine..
> Cheaper.
> Less injects throughout.
> Less estrogen.
> ...



Only (1) article was posted in this thread, so what else could you be talking about exactly? You even stated "that article." I know you're better than this, Gamer. The article is meant to be a reference and resource of information; not the only opinion or view on how hCG should be implemented. I've also seen you bash Primordial as well recently; but that's not a topic to bring into this focal discussion.

I agree that there are scams all around this industry, but this discussion about how to utilize and implement hCG is far from that.




-John


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## Gamer2be08 (Dec 1, 2010)

Trauma1 said:


> Well, what would you think I would assume when you post this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The only thing I have "bashed" was oral formestane and oral sustain.. It doesnt make sense.. But I will leave it alone..


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## Gamer2be08 (Dec 1, 2010)

And I was saying most PCT setups are a scam.. Like SERM dosages *stupid atd, shitty test boosters..*and IMO HCG use..


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