# Lee priest STEROIDS



## Uzi9 (Apr 24, 2005)

Audio clip of lee priest getting pissed on what people think he takes
Apparently he say he takes 2cc of deca and 2cc of para for 6-8 weeks in the off season only.


http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/leechat.htm <- interview (text but he says what he takes)

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/leetalksaboutdrugs.mp3 <--- audio


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## Uzi9 (Apr 24, 2005)

look at this pic of him in the offseason










^^^^ contest shape
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/leepriestinterviewpics1dbig.jpg


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## P-funk (Apr 24, 2005)

that is my fav. pic.  i love how fat he gets!!! hahahahaha


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## Mudge (Apr 24, 2005)

Yeah, Lee jokes about using but he always claims to use very low doses.


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## gococksDJS (Apr 24, 2005)

That's incredible that he can go from a fat ass to a monster like that.


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## Mudge (Apr 24, 2005)

He says he doesn't get that big in the offseason anymore, that would have been at least a couple years old.


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## ZECH (Apr 24, 2005)

That is bound to be hell on the body. That has to be 60/70 lb difference.


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## Mags (Apr 25, 2005)

*Someone ate Lee!!!*

Personally I think that's shocking. Fair play to the guy, he must have a shit load of discipline and pure grit and determination to trim down to his phenomenol contest shape, but who'd want to look that shit in the off season. maybe he see's it simply as a job to do rather than looking/feeling good. Personally, I prefer arnolds reasoning of getting big as possible but staying well within contest shape/weight by 25-30 odd pounds. That picture of lee just looks awful and like you guys have mentioned heavily taxing on the body.


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## Mudge (Apr 25, 2005)

dg806 said:
			
		

> That is bound to be hell on the body. That has to be 60/70 lb difference.



He got up to around 300 one off-season, and he competes 215-220.

Why does Lee do it? He loves fast food. "Be fat and happy" he says.


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## Mags (Apr 25, 2005)

Spose if you can have your cake and eat it fine, but I just couldn't be arsed to work off all that weight.


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## Uzi9 (Apr 25, 2005)

Mags said:
			
		

> Spose if you can have your cake and eat it fine, but I just couldn't be arsed to work off all that weight.


mags is it true about the girls where you live mate?


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## Mags (Apr 25, 2005)

You do get your cheeky ladies, yeah. Unfortunately for us fellas, Although you do get the usual typical essex lasses, not all are like the myth, many are the sodding opposite, proper stuck up etc. Do get some stunners down here though (obviously you get the stinking ones as well- no need for them anywhere). I find birds from london easier to get hold of or rattle than in my home county of Essex. Where you from?


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## Uzi9 (Apr 25, 2005)

Mags said:
			
		

> You do get your cheeky ladies, yeah. Unfortunately for us fellas, Although you do get the usual typical essex lasses, not all are like the myth, many are the sodding opposite, proper stuck up etc. Do get some stunners down here though (obviously you get the stinking ones as well- no need for them anywhere). I find birds from london easier to get hold of or rattle than in my home county of Essex. Where you from?


I live in boring cornwall... although newquay is good here in the summer, cornwall wakes up in the summer, i was born in london though


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## musclepump (Apr 25, 2005)

Searching for the Holy Grail?


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## Mags (Apr 25, 2005)

musclepump said:
			
		

> Searching for the Holy Grail?


??


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## musclepump (Apr 25, 2005)

I just read the Da Vinci Code; all over France, England, etc... Grail on the brian.


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## musclepump (Apr 25, 2005)

I just read the Da Vinci Code; all over France, England, etc... Grail on the brain.


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## Deeznuts (Apr 25, 2005)

He said it best in his another blonde Myth video:

"A man that drinks water and eats healthy every meal could get hit by a bus or come down with cancer, whereas a man that eats KFC everyday lives to be 80. Live life and enjoy it." 

It was something to this effect. Although, I rarely live by this myself (I stay 10-15 pds. within my competitive weight), I think it's a good line.


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## Vieope (Apr 25, 2005)

Uzi9 said:
			
		

> l


_That is so funny.  

Great picture._


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## Uzi9 (Apr 26, 2005)

<LI>*So what are you taking for contest preperation? *


Clenbuterol, Stanozolol every second day and Nolvadex. And that's it. It is the same thing I used back in 1997, and you can verify that with Flex Wheeler. Flex at that time was asking me how did I get in shape and I told him that this is all that I used, and it worked. I have got ready for other shows with other things, I've used growth before, but when I used it, I didn't notice a big difference. I think it is a waste of time, as I am not better when I used it as to when I didn't use it. Like I said, you can use drugs, and get prescription steroids, and use too many, and one is going to contradict another. It's better to just do the basics. I remember Cathy came to the bathroom one day, and I showed her what I was using, and she said 'I know women that use more than you do'. 

<LI>*You don't use any Deca? *


I sometimes use some of that in the off season. When I am going to try something for six weeks, I may use that, mainly for my joints. If I am training really heavy, my joints gets sore. But in the offseason, sometimes like six or seven months, I don't even touch anything. I don't rely on them, and never have relied on them. Ok, it might give me a boost around contest time to help keep some muscle mass on and burn fat, but I take very little. Currently, just those three. But I am doing cardio two hours a day, I am training twice a day, I getting lots of protein, what else do I need. And I don't have the mentality like others that if I am not on drugs, I can't go heavy, I can't push myself, I can't train. I've never been that may. I feel much better when I am off them, I hate frickin needles, so I don't need to take it as little as possible. If they wanted to start drug testing fully, I couldn't care less. I could do it without them. 

I've got that Underground Steroid handbook. I look at pictures in the back of the fakes and the real ones. Quite a few people will come up to me and ask me 'Hey Lee, what do you think of this drug'. And I tell them that I never heard of it. And they say 'Oh come on, yes you have, you're a professional bodybuilder'. These different drugs just do not interest me. *I don't use test either*. Why should I like it? I've always had a high level of testosterone, and it suppressed my natural level so I got weaker, so I never used. But people say to me 'Everybody uses test.' No, I don't like it, are you telling me what I like and what I use now? Everybody is an expert here. Sometimes I go just to read the bulletin boards to see what I am doing lately, as people know more about me than I know. 

Notice he says he never uses test....goes against alot of people in here hey!?...


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## premo (Apr 26, 2005)

im from essex too all the birds round here are stuck up but when u do crack them they r rite goers


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## dakota (Apr 26, 2005)

fit birds!!!! love em


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## musclepump (Apr 26, 2005)

Uzi9 said:
			
		

> <LI>*So what are you taking for contest preperation? *
> 
> Clenbuterol, Stanozolol every second day and Nolvadex. And that's it. It is the same thing I used back in 1997, and you can verify that with Flex Wheeler. Flex at that time was asking me how did I get in shape and I told him that this is all that I used, and it worked. I have got ready for other shows with other things, I've used growth before, but when I used it, I didn't notice a big difference. I think it is a waste of time, as I am not better when I used it as to when I didn't use it. Like I said, you can use drugs, and get prescription steroids, and use too many, and one is going to contradict another. It's better to just do the basics. I remember Cathy came to the bathroom one day, and I showed her what I was using, and she said 'I know women that use more than you do'.
> <LI>*You don't use any Deca? *
> ...


Then how does he say it "suppressed my natural level so I got weaker..."?


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## Mudge (Apr 26, 2005)

Uzi9 said:
			
		

> Notice he says he never uses test....goes against alot of people in here hey!?...



Yeah and I'll bet you believe he only juices for 6 weeks a year too.


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## Uzi9 (Apr 26, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Yeah and I'll bet you believe he only juices for 6 weeks a year too.


why lie about it? he admits using them any way no one can prove what he takes, all i know is that if i was gonna say i take steriods then why say i never take test if i do? dont see the point in him lying about that at all.

He also admits taking GH, i think he would say if he was doing a basic steroid like test.


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## musclepump (Apr 26, 2005)

I think he contradicts himself which underlies credibility.


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## Uzi9 (Apr 26, 2005)

musclepump said:
			
		

> I think he contradicts himself which underlies credibility.


but why lie about using a common steroid like test if he admits taking GH lol


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## musclepump (Apr 26, 2005)

To be different? To make it sound like he doesn't need it?


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## Uzi9 (Apr 26, 2005)

he says he taking 2cc of parabolan, isnt parabolan better then test http://www.deca-sustanon.com/parabolan.htm says here it is 3 times more effective as test per mg.


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## Mudge (Apr 26, 2005)

You need to stop reading those stupid charts. Tren doesn't do the same thing test does, you can't say its "3 times better."

If you want strength, then yes tren is better on a mg per mg basis.

But why dont you just do the 6 weeks a year thing with very low doses just like Lee Priest does, because he wouldn't lie at all. Nothing makes you grow like KFC and McDonalds!


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## Uzi9 (Apr 26, 2005)

LOL you guys sound like what he says in his audio clip about people on internet forums.." i tell you if i am doing 5g of test i will fucking tell you i am doing 5g of test".


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## musclepump (Apr 26, 2005)

No one said he's using 5g of Test, or Test at all per say, but it's easy to point out how he openly contradicts himself.


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## Uzi9 (Apr 26, 2005)

2000mg of deca and 2000mg of tren is not a low dose either mate.

When Arnold was in europe at 20 (before he moved to america) he was massive in size much bigger then anyone i have seen on here! he didnt do as much steriods as a lot of you guys say you do and what cycles you have posted (he did mainly dianabol), also as your far superior training methods (i.e. Arnold was overtraining massivly ) and the fact a lot of you have been training and doing juice much longer then arnold had at 20 kind of tell you something about genetics, so just cos you dont understand why the fuck lee priest is so much bigger then all of you dosnt mean hes roided out of his head like you think you have to be because of what you lack. 

compare yourself to arnold his training and what steriods he had back then at 20 years old then you might think its not just juice what determines why lee priest is bigger then you.


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## Mudge (Apr 26, 2005)

2cc isn't going to add up to 2 grams, try working your calculator again.

We know what Lee is really doint, its Wheat Grass from Jamba Juice, just like he said in his video.

Nobody said its just juice, thats moronic. Genetics always play a role, always. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy occurs through high volume training. This is what most bodybuilders have.


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## Uzi9 (Apr 26, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> 2cc isn't going to add up to 2 grams, try working your calculator again.
> 
> We know what Lee is really doint, its Wheat Grass from Jamba Juice, just like he said in his video.
> 
> Nobody said its just juice, thats moronic. Genetics always play a role, always. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy occurs through high volume training. This is what most bodybuilders have.


2cc is 2 ml
cubic centimeters to mililiters = 0.999972

http://www.mgscientific.com/service/factors.asp


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## Mudge (Apr 26, 2005)

Uzi9 said:
			
		

> 2cc is 2 ml
> cubic centimeters to mililiters = 0.999972
> 
> http://www.mgscientific.com/service/factors.asp



Oh wow, thanks for the education. So how did you come up with a gram per cc? You'd just about be shooting straight powder, probably about 140º just to get it through the pin.

Have you even used steroids in your life? Do you honestly believe 6 weeks carries that kind of physique? 6 weeks out of 52 isn't shit. He shouldn't even bother if his genetics were that great.


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## Uzi9 (Apr 26, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Oh wow, thanks for the education. So how did you come up with a gram per cc? You'd just about be shooting straight powder, probably about 140º just to get it through the pin.
> 
> Have you even used steroids in your life? Do you honestly believe 6 weeks carries that kind of physique? 6 weeks out of 52 isn't shit. He shouldn't even bother if his genetics were that great.


he said 6 to 8! those 2 weeks make all the differance , nice edit BTW very sneaky.


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## Duncans Donuts (Apr 26, 2005)

The actual substance is mixed with a solvent...typically 250 to 500 milligrams a CC.  A shot with a full gram in one CC would hurt like hell.


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## Mudge (Apr 26, 2005)

Uzi9 said:
			
		

> he said 6 to 8! those 2 weeks make all the differance



That and the wheat grass, who am I kidding!?

Somewhere abouts 8cc of testosterone enanthate is about 10 grams. Thats just about raw hormone right there.


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## Uzi9 (Apr 26, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> That and the wheat grass, who am I kidding!?
> 
> Somewhere abouts 8cc of testosterone enanthate is about 10 grams. Thats just about raw hormone right there.


so about 1cc = 0.8g so 2 cc = 1.6g thats still a high dose IMO for tren & deca.


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## Mudge (Apr 26, 2005)

Oy vey, tell me where you've seen 800mg/ml anything. I want to know, I really do, because I've never ever heard of it.

At this point I am thinking that you assume everyone uses the exact same formula for all products which is completely untrue and anyone should know this who has seen different brands of products. Equipoise for example has come in anything from 50mg/ml up to 500mg/ml.

You cannot relate a volume to a weight when you are mixing different substances together, i.e. drug being suspended, benzyl alcohol, benzyl benzoate, and suspension medium (oil of choice).

My numbers above are RAW HORMONE, which is not always liquid at room temperature (deca and tren acetate nor tren enanthate are not). My test enanthate sitting at home is partial liquid sometimes but so thick, nobody would shoot it straight.


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## Uzi9 (Apr 26, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Oy vey, tell me where you've seen 800mg/ml anything. I want to know, I really do, because I've never ever heard of it.
> 
> At this point I am thinking that you assume everyone uses the exact same formula for all products which is completely untrue and anyone should know this who has seen different brands of products. Equipoise for example has come in anything from 50mg/ml up to 500mg/ml.
> 
> You cannot relate a volume to a weight when you are mixing different substances together, i.e. drug being suspended, benzyl alcohol, benzyl benzoate, and suspension medium (oil of choice).


what are you saying when you said 8cc = 10g of test?


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## Mudge (Apr 26, 2005)

That is RAW HORMONE that is not a final product, for testosterone enanthate 250mg/ml or 500mg/ml would be most commonly found. I will post the exact number for 10 grams in volume later, when the board that has the formula is back up.


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## Uzi9 (Apr 26, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> That is RAW HORMONE that is not a final product, for testosterone enanthate 250mg/ml or 500mg/ml would be most commonly found. I will post the exact number for 10 grams in volume later, when the board that has the formula is back up.


cool, can you also find out what 2cc of deca and tren = in gram


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## musclepump (Apr 26, 2005)

You're a good man for trying Mudge, but I think it's pointless. Some will just believe what they want to believe.


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## Mudge (Apr 26, 2005)

Uzi9 said:
			
		

> cool, can you also find out what 2cc of deca and tren = in gram



You aren't reading what I'm typing here, it all depends how YOU make it. The company or person who makes it determines the concentration.


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## Uzi9 (Apr 26, 2005)

musclepump said:
			
		

> You're a good man for trying Mudge, but I think it's pointless. Some will just believe what they want to believe.


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## Uzi9 (Apr 26, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> You aren't reading what I'm typing here, it all depends how YOU make it. The company or person who makes it determines the concentration.


yes sir, sir


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## Mudge (Apr 26, 2005)

To reitterate, you have your drug - often this is called powder, sometimes it is powder or a partial liquid state (molten) or whatever.

Then you have benzyl alcohol and benzyl benzoate, and whatever your oil of choice is. Cottonseed is common, I prefer walnut because it has a low viscosity.

So those items all come together to make a final product, the concentration is all depends on the manufacturer. If everyone was shooting raw hormone (impossible, because its often not even liquid at room temperature), then the dose would be exactly the same for all products.

You will see products like Sustanon 250, or T400, and so on - those give you a clue as to their potency.

I will post the weight to volume conversion for testosterone enanthate whenever I can get access to it. Whenever you visit a conversion style board or forum section of a board you will find some of these rates, actually there is a calculator online somewhere now that I think of it. I normally weigh everything by hand, although especially if dealing in large volume then you will find measuring by volume is faster, albiet perhaps less accurate depending on the quality of your instruments.

When you hear about gear crashing or crystalizing, this is when it falls out of suspension. Either not enough solvent, or simply trying to get too high of a concentration out of the gear. Eventually the gear becomes very thick at high concentrations making it more difficult to shoot, which is inconvenient. So there are practical limits to how high a concentration can be, in part due to pain, ability to have it remain suspended, and not having to use a horse sized needle because its so thick.


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## Deeznuts (Apr 26, 2005)

I love Lee Priest...he's one of my favorite body builders. But, that doesn't change the fact he's been using a lot of juice from a very young age. This thread is just about Lee, but all IFBB pros are the same. If people could achieve physiques like that naturally we'd have some big people walking around. lol THIS + their incredible genetics makes them what they are. I mean, damn, look at Kris Dim (spelling?), one of the newest IFBB pros who competed at Olympia last year. 1993 he was sitting at 130 lbs. as a bodybuilder and is now somewhere around 250. His genetics were already in play...and I doubt protein and muti vitamins helped him put on that much raw muscle. lol

BTW, Mudge, how old are you? You're incredibly well informed. This thread is almost humorous - it's like arguing with a human bodybuilding encyclopedia.


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## musclepump (Apr 26, 2005)

If Dim can get to 250, I should be able to get to 270 no problem


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## Deeznuts (Apr 26, 2005)

Yea, and you should see me on the stage of Mr. Olympia in a few years.   lol I think you have a much better chance of hitting 270 next week


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## Mudge (Apr 26, 2005)

Deeznuts said:
			
		

> BTW, Mudge, how old are you? You're incredibly well informed. This thread is almost humorous - it's like arguing with a human bodybuilding encyclopedia.



Close enough to 30 to feel the depression coming on 

I know quite readily there are genetic factors that come into play, drugs or no drugs anyone who says different is living in a dream world. Different people have receptor count differences, regulatory differences, insulin sensativity differences, the list goes on and on. For those who dont have insane genetics it requires a lot of knowlege and/or very unhealthy doses as well as a sound diet.

Lots of pros that even talk about the subject steer clear of how much they use and even sometimes what, as for lying people do it for different reasons. I like Lee Priest I think he is a funny as hell guy, but no I dont believe he is being honest.  that is just my opinion. I tell you what though, if he is really using for only 6-8 weeks I wouldn't even bother. The dude is in the US now, working with NASCAR, and he is going to risk all that by using when he can be natural and do just as well? Cough cough bullshit.

From what I can recall he said his first cycle was 400mg of deca a week, I can believe that. But no, I dont believe anyone gets to 5'4.5" 300 pounds with 6-8 weeks of modest, or even high doses.

I accept the veil of secrecy as part of the game, I dont accept it as truth.

Casey Viator said Mike Mentzer was using over 2 grams of deca a week, that I believe. I want someone here to find a high level national competitor that isn't on over 2 grams of stuff a week MINIMUM. 

I know a powerlifter on another board who owns some records in his age group and has trained with some that still hold records currently. For him to be on less than 3 grams of test and 2 grams of tren a week is like being natural.

Some people use more than others, fact. Some who use less will get better results, fact. Genetics do play a role, but I dont believe Lee is being honest.


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## SJ69 (Apr 26, 2005)

lets just say the test is 250mg/ml, a very common concentration.  In that case 1g of test would be 4ml (or 4cc), it's never 1g/ml
For the Deca 200mg/ml is common making 2g equal to 10ml.  You would have to fill the average syringe 3 1/3 times just to inject 2g Deca.


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## SJ69 (Apr 26, 2005)

damn, I don't hear of people on this board sticking 4 times just to get their Deca in, then another 3 shots for their test.


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## SJ69 (Apr 26, 2005)

I don't even know where I'd find the time to draw that much shyt on my Mondays.


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## SJ69 (Apr 26, 2005)

ps, most syringes are 3ml


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## Deeznuts (Apr 26, 2005)

SJ - could you have not have said that in one post?  lol

I'll be honest, I barely know anything about steroids (i'm only 18, so they haven't really crossed my mind yet), but I also think Lee's doing a lot more than he claims. From what i've read about Lee's past, I think he was given some serious juice at a very young age - possibly from family members.


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## SJ69 (Apr 26, 2005)

Deeznuts said:
			
		

> SJ - could you have not have said that in one post?  lol
> 
> s.



lol, every time I hit Submit, I kept thinking "Damn, I better clarify that, people may be confused..."


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## Mudge (Apr 26, 2005)

Some guys actually use 5cc syringes, but high mg/ml long esters become popular with some of the bigger guys. I like reduced shots as well, but I still stick to 3cc syringes.

8cc of Testosterone Cypionate should weigh in at 10 grams.


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## SJ69 (Apr 26, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> .
> 
> 8cc of Testosterone Cypionate should weigh in at 10 grams.



Just to clarify, he's saying 10g Test Cyp, 8ml of test cyp dissolved in oil would probably be 2g of actual Testosterone (or 1.6 g if it's 200 mg/ml)


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## SJ69 (Apr 26, 2005)

or maybe it's 10g for that volume of PURE test cyp, which no one would inject (or could inject)


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## SJ69 (Apr 26, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Some guys actually use 5cc syringes, but high mg/ml long esters become popular with some of the bigger guys. I like reduced shots as well, but I still stick to 3cc syringes.
> .



I've seen those 5cc syringes.  I couldn't imagine what what 5 ml of QV's Test E would feel like the next day.
Right now my bro is doing 2ml of Test + 1ml Deca and he says it hurts like hell, I start next week.


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## Mudge (Apr 26, 2005)

Yes I'm talking raw hormone which in this case is powder, you can't inject powder without some creativity. 8ml of volume for test cyp is 10 grams according to one sheet I've seen, now for test enanthate I could swear there was a decimal in there, but equipment quality varies as does quality control at the user level.

Disolved in oil the number could be almost anything UNDER that number, but practically I have never seen stronger than 400mg/ml testosterone cypionate, and when I used it, it was painfull.

Anyway that would be 1.25 grams per cc or per ml, and there is no way again that Lee is shooting straight hormone.


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## Mudge (Apr 26, 2005)

Test Enanthate 10 gram conversion 

Needed 
10 grams test E 
2ml Benzyl Alcohol = 5% BA 
30.5 ml sesame oil 
Syringes 3cc & 5/10cc 
18 or 20 gauge needles 
mixing Vial 
Sterile Vial 
Whatman sterile filter 


1. Weigh out 10 grams of powder. 
2. Place powder in vial. 
3. Add BA to the vial. 
4. Heat oil in the oven to help sterilize it, heat to at least 212 degrees F. I usually heat my oil at 275 to be sure, I put the oil in a muffin pan, just fill one of the indentions this is plenty for these experiments. Also heat more oil than you need, as you will not be able to get it all out of the pan. 
5. Add oil to the vial, save 2 ml of oil in the syringe for later. Gently shake vial. 
6. Heat mixture if necessary. I like heating my powder products, by placing the vial in a frying pan, and placing it on the eye of the stove. 
7. Place a 18 or 20 gauge needle in the sterile vial attach Whatman sterile filter. 
8. Place another needle in the sterile vial to relieve the pressure. 
9. Draw out solution with a syringe, run though Whatman filter. 
10. Take other syringe with 2ml oil, run through Whatman into solution. 

Makes 40ml @ 250mg/ml

So according to this, 7.5cc/ml of test enanthate is 10g worth. Since this is in a molten or semi-liquid state this makes sense because there is no air occupying deadspace between powder crystals.

Anyhow, hopefully this wraps up this ever long dissertation.


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## Uzi9 (Apr 27, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Some guys actually use 5cc syringes, but high mg/ml long esters become popular with some of the bigger guys. I like reduced shots as well, but I still stick to 3cc syringes.
> 
> 8cc of Testosterone Cypionate should weigh in at 10 grams.


are you talking raw hormone or the liquid 8cc contains 10g of test?


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## Mudge (Apr 27, 2005)

We are talking raw hormone bro, I thought I said that 3 times or something 

If we had lets say 250mg/ml testosterone which would be very common for a long ester (enanthate or cypionate) in 10cc, we would have 250mgx10cc = 2.5 grams of total substance.

500mg/ml enanthate is relatively easy to make, you see the enanthate formula above doens't even use BB because it stays suspended at low concentrations relatively easily, its semi molten at room temperature in most warmish parts of the world. Cypionate on the other hand is a true powder with a higher melting point, so it is more finicky to get suspended and requires some solvent like BB. BA is just for anti-microbial purposes (still have to filter it though).


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## Mags (Apr 27, 2005)

This is the best biology/Chemistry lesson I've had in along while.


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## TrojanMan60563 (Apr 27, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Close enough to 30 to feel the depression coming on
> 
> I know quite readily there are genetic factors that come into play, drugs or no drugs anyone who says different is living in a dream world. Different people have receptor count differences, regulatory differences, insulin sensativity differences, the list goes on and on. For those who dont have insane genetics it requires a lot of knowlege and/or very unhealthy doses as well as a sound diet.
> 
> ...



I grew up around many powerlifters and was one myself. I know a few world record holders that did not use any gear to obtain their records. I knew a natural guy squating over 800lbs. Back 10 years ago that was a fairly big deal. I also know some guys that claimed to use none but now that I know something or two about gear I can look back and see the signs that they were using.

I own 4 IL state records from when I was 14 or 15 years old and I did no juice then and I didn't eat any kind of real diet either. When I started squating I put 150lbs on my squat in the first 4 weeks of training.


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## gococksDJS (Apr 27, 2005)

TrojanMan60563 said:
			
		

> I own 4 IL state records from when I was 14 or 15 years old and I did no juice then and I didn't eat any kind of real diet either. When I started squating I put 150lbs on my squat in the first 4 weeks of training.


 Damn, thats impressive brotha...


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## TrojanMan60563 (Apr 27, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> Damn, thats impressive brotha...



Thanks...at age 14 I was squating 485lbs, deadlifting 510lbs, and benching 260lbs. Right around the time I turned 16 I wrecked jumping some doubles on a BMX bike I used to race and received a partial tear in my left quad that put me outta commision for 6 months. Since then I have not taken powerlifting back up. I am more interested in bodybuilding where I do not have to put my body to its single rep limit and risk re-injuring myself. Besides I have lots of joint pains and back pains that probably wouldn't exsist if I didn't lift so heavy as a kid. My father is still a competitive powerlifter at age 57. He has many state, national, and world gold medals and travels all over the world to compete in the Worlds each year. In some ways I wish I continued with it since I had a gift of strength...I had larger quads then my father when I was 14. It used to be a joke between he and I because his legs just never gained size....now he is squating over 600lbs and legs are still not large...its funny shit.


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## Doublebase (Apr 28, 2005)

SJ69 said:
			
		

> or maybe it's 10g for that volume of PURE test cyp, which no one would inject (or could inject)



Your avatar is perverted.


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## Mudge (Apr 28, 2005)

TrojanMan60563 said:
			
		

> I know a few world record holders that did not use any gear to obtain their records. I knew a natural guy squating over 800lbs.



Sebastian Burns of Metal Militia squatted over 800 and he said he was also all natural at THAT time. Powerlifting is an interesting sport, you will find some who can excell naturally with training alone, hypertrophic training seems to be more finicky and neccessitate the drug use.

For that matter Shawn Lattimer is the worlds strongest tested bencher and has hit 847 in bench competition, he says he is also natural.

The guy who is using multiple grams a week, oddly enough or not, says that drugs are only 5% of the total equation. So figure that one out. He is a retired Bayer chemist and is around 50 years old. He trains with Kyle who set a world record in his age group/weight (23 years old, 230 pounds, 730 bench).


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## Mudge (Apr 28, 2005)

Functional and non-functional hypertrophy

Credits at the bottom

I was sitting in a graduate level exercise physiology class one day and we were being lectured on the physiology of muscle fibers. After 4 weeks studying metabolism this was simply a breath of fresh air for me, because this is an area of exercise physiology and strength research that really interest me and in which I've done a lot of reading/research. We started out studying the outer portion of the muscle structure and gradually worked our way "inward." We learned really neat things about fascia, the epimysium, perimysium, fascicle, the axon of the motor neuron, and other big words that everyone mumbled when pronounced in class. However, one day we finally got to the good stuff! We began talking about the sarcolemma, the sarcoplasmic reticulum, sarcoplasm, the myofibrils, and the sarcomere. My professor had just gotten through explaining the significance of the sarcoplasm ???when??? well, what on earth is a sarcoplasm you may ask. Good question. Well, it's basically a bunch of "goo." The goo is made up of minerals, fats, dissolved proteins, a relatively large amount of glycogen (compared to the cytoplasm of the muscle cell), and some organelles. It is also home to myoglobin. Myoglobin carries oxygen to the mitochindria in a muscle cell. Therefore you can see that it is an important part of the muscle. 

Anyway, as I was saying, after explaining all that my professor started talking about myofibrils and sarcomeres. Every muscle fiber contains anywhere from a few hundred to many thousand myofibrils. Within each myofibril you have sarcomeres. Sarcomeres are the smallest functional unit of a muscle fiber. Remember that, it's very important. Within the sarcomere is where the muscle actually contracts. Now, the myofibrils are lined up longitudinally (i.e., kinda like logs on a log truck) within the sarcoplasmic reticulum. Their number and diameter are important factors influencing the size of the fiber as a whole. 

When I learned this, the terms functional and non-functional hypertrophy (also called sarcomere and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy) suddenly made sense to me. I understood the concept before, but now I understood some of the mechanisms behind it. I had a mental image of what it actually was and why. My brain was flooded with questions so I obviously looked to my fearless leader and asked him if my hypotheses about the different types of hypertrophy were physiologically accurate. When the words functional and nonfunctional hypertrophy left my mouth it hit him like a garter belt hitting a bachelor at a wedding reception. He didn't know what to think! Looking like a monkey doing a math problem he scratched his head a few times and said that he was unfamiliar with that terminology. I assumed ok, well maybe those are more appropriately laymen terms. So I rephrased it and asked about hypertophy of the sarcomere and sarcoplasmic hypertophy. No dice, he was still trying to carry the one. 

Now what importance does all of those big words, and fuzzy word pictures have to do with getting bigger and stronger. Well, EVRYTHING! The next time your in the bookstore, grocery store, etc. pick up a muscle magazine and check out some of the pictures of the bodybuilders and models in the ads. All appear to be in great shape; muscular, 3%-6% body fat, the bodies that most people would kill for. Now ask yourself this: When was the last time any of them won a strong man, powerlifitng, or weightlifting contest? Now, I'm not trying to belittle bodybuilding as a sport and yes some bodybuilders compete and do well in powerlifting events. However my point is, if they are in as great a shape as they look and were as strong as they looked, these feats of strength would be relatively easy for them and a good way for them to "stay in shape" during the off-season. However, except for on the amateur level, you rarely see bodybuilders doing well in any of these events. Even powerlifting, although most accomplished bodybuilders use the "Big Three" in their weekly routines. Why is this? Why do bodybuilders not the relative strength (i.e., strength relative to bodyweight) of weightlifters and powerlifters? Or strongmen? Several elite bodybuilders weigh the same as some elite strongmen. Particularly in their off season when they usually put on a lot of body fat. Well, the reason is bodybuilders train in a manor that produces a greater proportion of non-functional hypertrophy. Hypertrophy of the sarcoplasm. The methods they use in training contribute to greater storage of glycogen, minerals, etc. as mentioned above. For the higher volume of training they use, this is beneficial. The adaptation caused by the high volume causes hypertrophy of the sarcoplasm because it is the greater glycogen and mineral storage that allows them to continue to train at that level of volume. In other words, they need more "goo." While to a degree that is beneficial to the athlete, traditional bodybuilder training does not contribute significantly to sarcomere hypertrophy. And what is a sarcomere? The smallest functional unit of a muscle. The sarcomere is the part of the muscle that actually does all of the contracting and therefore movement. Increase the size of the sarcomere and you will have stronger, more forceful contractions AND bigger muscles. Sarcomere hypertrophy is typically found in the legs and traps of elite weightlifters. In other words, they are as strong as they look. They achieve such hypertrophy by slaving away at the various pulls, and of course, every weightlifters' best friend???squats. But it's not so much the exercise, but the manor in which the exercise is performed that makes the difference. All are performed for multiple sets at very low reps; rarely over 6 and in elite lifters often never more than 3. Also, in the variations of the snatch and clean the lifts are performed explosively. This creates a lot of tension on the muscle and therefore recruits many of the fast twitch muscle fibers that are not recruited in high rep slow speed training. Also, such training reduces time under tension, which hinders sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and the hypertrophy of slow twitch fibers. The slow twitch fibers are moderately active in such quick/explosive movements, but they are the endurance fibers. Therefore, they have not been under tension long enough to cause adaptation to take place. 

Now, that is the traditional view of functional and nonfunctional hypertrophy discussed in several excellent books on training. Two of which are: Science and Practice of Strength Training by Dr. Vladimir Zatsiorsky and Supertraining by Dr. Mel Siff. However, I would like to propose another form of functional/nonfunctional hypertrophy. 

About 8 years ago, I read an article in Scholastic Coach magazine. The article was written by Thomas V. Pipes, and entitled "Strength Training and Fiber Types." This was the first article that I ever read that had a somewhat scientific approach to strength training. I had read a few books and of course a few bodybuilding magazines but this article was different. In it, Pipes takes muscle biopsies of an athlete before and after pre-determined training microcycles. His findings were eye opening to me at the time. Remember, at this point I'm more or less a newbie still. In a nut shell, he found that following a routine in which 8 reps (at the 8 RM as only one set was used) were used, the fast twitch muscle fibers of the trained muscle (in this case the quadricep via the leg press) hypertrophied. Well duh! Any body could have told him that right? Perhaps, however, he also found that the slow twitch muscle fibers atrophied (i.e., got smaller); and he also found that the number of reps the athlete could perform at 80% of his 1 RM decreased, yet his 1 RM increased! The athlete was then placed on a routine using 12 reps (at his 12 RM). Can anybody guess what happened? Well, muscle biopsy showed that hypertrophy did in fact take place, but that it was in the slow twitch muscle fibers this time. Not only that but the fast twitch fibers atrophied and the number of reps possible at 80% 1 RM went up, while his 1 RM decreased! 

Now, first let me say that Pipes is a full-fledged 'HIT' advocate. Therefore this study was limited in that only one or two sets to concentric momentary muscle failure was used. Also, it used only one athlete. However, in my opinion the information is still very valid as empirical evidence and a few other similar studies back it up somewhat. However, I would like to see more thorough research using Pipes line of thinking. There are papers out there that imply these findings or that you can extrapolate, but his research is still in my opinion unique. Now what does all that mean? Well, first off don't get too caught up on the numbers 8 and 12. I will get into this in a minute, but please don't think that there is a magic number in which you can turn on fast twitch fibers and turn off slow twitch fibers and vice-versa. My point in discussing these findings is this. You can achieve hypertrophy in the wrong muscle fibers! 

Too much hypertrophy in slow twitch fibers is contraindicated for the strength and power athlete. There are several reasons why hypertrophy of the slow twitch fibers may be detrimental to the strength and power athlete: 





Fast Twitch fibers contract up to 10 times faster than slow twitch fibers (Siff, 2000). Because of this if there is too much hypertrophy in the slow twitch fibers they may cause too much friction for the fast twitch fibers to contract with maximal speed or force. 
The type of training that induces slow twitch hypertrophy is more or less opposite that which causes hypertrophy of the fast twitch fibers.

Endurance training has been shown to decrease vertical jump power, explosive speed, etc. This is believed to be a result of enzymatic and neuromuscular changes (Siff, 2000). 
Now please don't misinterpret this and think that slow twitch fibers are evil, and you have to find a way to shrink them. Don't think that you're slow, or can't jump very high because your slow twitch fibers are too big. There is usually another reason, one in which we hope to change. Strength and power athletes (i.e., most: football, baseball, basketball, volleyball, and hockey players, martial artist, weightlifters, powerlifters, bodybuilders, strongmen, highland game participants, gymnasts, etc.) often need functional hypertrophy to excel in their sport of choice. However, a lot of the literature on strength training discusses getting stronger when getting bigger may or may not be achieved using the methods discussed. Then on the other hand, the literature (read bodybuilding magazines) on getting bigger may or may not lead to increased strength. Well today you can have your cake and eat it too. I have developed a method of manipulating loading parameters that you can easily modify to fit your individual needs in which you can achieve both size and strength. I based it largely on the information derived from the article mentioned above. However, my suspicions have been confirmed via extensive reading and researching of many different strength training methods that all have the same goal in mind, i.e., bigger stronger athletes! In fact, research about 2 years ago partially confirmed some of the findings of Pipes. Now let me be clear that this routine is best used in off-season and/or General Preparatory Phases of training. In other words, if you play football, and in the spring and summer you typically go on a "bodybuilding" phase to increase lean mass, then give this a try. When you transition to more specific training you will find that while being bigger you are also significantly stronger in your maximal strength. Then you can spend less time working on getting stronger and more time on becoming faster and more powerful! Using the parameters below one will selectively cause both types of functional hypertrophy. 


Loading Parameters for Functional Hypertrophy 

Your workout will be divided into 3 groups of sets that I will term a 'complex'. In the first one you will perform 4-6 sets, in the second 2-4, and in the third 1-3. You will choose one exercise per complex, or you may use the same exercise for all sets of the workout. 

Complex 1: 
Sets: 4-6 
Reps: 1-5 
TUT: Less than 20 seconds 
Rest: 3-5 minutes 

Notes: In this complex, it's my opinion that the concentric portion of each rep be performed as explosively as possible. Now the bar may move slowly, that's fine, as long as you're attempting to move it explosively. I'm not overly concerned with the eccentric tempo in this complex as the load will usually prevent you from letting it free fall. 

Complex 2: 
Sets: 2-4 
Reps: 3-8 (6-8 unless slower tempos are used) 
TUT: 20-40 seconds 
Rest: 3-5 minutes. 

Notes: In this complex I recommend giving serious consideration to the manipulation of tempo. Also, pay more attention to the TUT (i.e., Time Under Tension) prescription than the reps. The reason being is that if you want to perform reps on a 5050 tempo (i.e., 5 seconds lowering the weight, no pause, 5 seconds to lift the weight, no pause) performing 8 reps would take you out of the prescribed TUT bracket, as that would be a total of 80 seconds of TUT. Therefore, understand that the parameters are merely guidelines. Now, for most sports, slower tempos are generally not that beneficial. I feel that lowering weight at a moderate speed eccentrically throughout a portion of a mesocycle is fine. In fact more athletes I feel should probably take 2-5 seconds to lower the weight. However, for athletes who need to be powerful I feel that the concentric portions of all reps should be performed using Compensatory Acceleration about 75%-90% of the time. However, this being an off-season or GPP program, I feel the use of slower tempos will be beneficial to many athletes. One reason is it will cause great adaptation because most athletes rarely give attention to the speed in which they perform a rep. Another reason is that it is a great way to build strength. There is no momentum involved when lifting weights slowly. Therefore it produces great amounts of muscle tension but for greater amounts of time than many other methods. Manipulate them as you want, but tempo's that I have found that work well in this complex are: 


4010 for 6-8 reps 
5050 for 3-4 reps 
3060 for 3-5 reps 
5030 for 3-6 reps 
3030 for 6-8 reps 
These certainly aren't the only ones you may use, but for these loading parameters, these are some old stand byes. 

Complex 3: 
Sets: 1-3 
Reps: 8-15 
TUT: 40-70 seconds (same rules as above apply regarding tempo) 
Rest: 30-90 seconds 

Notes: You can manipulate tempo in this complex, but I've found that simply controlling the weight on a moderate tempo (e.g., a 2020 tempo) and hitting the TUT prescription works about as well as any specific tempo, slow or fast. Keep the weight above 60% 1 RM. If it drops below that due to fatigue, terminate the workout. 


Program notes: 

First let me emphasize again that this induces functional hypertrophy. You will get bigger and stronger, but frankly, as much as I like it it's not the best way to get stronger. The reason being is that using such wide rep brackets you could conceivably use anywhere from 95% down to 55% of your 1 RM in a workout and for optimal strength gains that's too big a gap. Also, while I'm on the topic of rep brackets. In each complex I have given rather wide rep brackets. This is so you can adjust the program to your individual needs. However, when you select a weight bracket, select a 3-rep wide rep bracket for a given complex that day. For example, if you deadlift in the first complex, choose a rep bracket of 3-5 reps, 2-4 reps, or 1-3 reps. If you are scheduled for 3-5 reps and 5 sets, yet in the fourth set you only achieve two reps, terminate the complex and move on. Also, while I did say that this program was not optimal for increasing strength, it is pretty good. Each complex is given a certain rep bracket and a specific TUT that will preferentially recruit certain fiber types at certain times. Be sure that ego doesn't interfere with proper form or execution of the routine. You will be rewarded by properly manipulating the load and exercise for each complex. I have seen several athletes increase certain lifts substantially when using these parameters. However, here's another tip to maximize your desired training effect. By using this program I will assume that you want both strength and mass. But which is slightly more important to you? If you want increased strength, particularly in a movement like the squat, perform that movement throughout the workout. If you want an emphasis in size, then perform a slightly different movement in each complex. For a more or less even mixture of both, use the same movement but alter it slightly in each complex. 

Allow me to illustrate! If you want increased mass in the pectoralis major muscles, you may perform incline dumb bell presses in complex 1, in complex 2 you may perform flat dumb bell presses, and in complex 3 you may perform chest dips. If you want increased size in the shoulders and better overhead pressing strength you may use the behind the neck bar bell press in complex 1, overhead dumb bell press in complex 2, and front barbell press in complex 3. If you want to increase your back squat, simply manipulate the loading parameters throughout and maintain the squat as your only movement for the entire workout. This will work I promise, no weight room gods will condemn you to an aerobics class for using only one exercise in a workout. 

Also, obviously this is a relatively high volume workout, after 3-6 workouts lower the volume for a few weeks, your body will thank you for it. Also, do not perform more than 12 sets for a body part in any given workout or 30 sets total. You can alternate exercises using these loading parameters as seen in this sample workout for an athlete who needed greater upper body size and strength. 

A1) Chest Dips 
Sets: 4 
Reps: 3-5 
Tempo: 3020 
Rest: 2 minutes 

A2) Wide Pronated Grip Pull Ups 
Sets: 4 
Reps: 3-5 
Tempo: 4010 
Rest: 2 minutes 

B1) Flat bench Dumb Bell Press 
Sets: 3 
Reps: 6-8 
Tempo: 50X0 
Rest: 2 minutes 

B2) Shoulder Width Pronated Grip Pull Ups 
Sets: 3 
Reps: 6-8 
Tempo: 40X0 
Rest: 2 minutes 

C1) Tricep Dips 
Sets: 1-2 
Reps: 10-12 
Tempo: 2020 
Rest: 60 seconds 

C2) Close Grip Supinated Chin Ups 
Sets: 1-2 
Reps: AMRAP (As Many Reps As Possible) 
Tempo: 30X0 
Rest: 60 seconds 

So you can see, you can work more than one body part or as I prefer "movement" at a time. However, for legs this doesn't work as well. You could if you performed more typical bodybuilding movements which tend to divide the leg into quad and hamstring dominant movements, but in my opinion if you truly want functional hypertrophy, then use movements that have functionality to them. I.e., that will carry over to your sport. Therefore, squats and deadlifts are in, leg extensions and curls are out. Also, where did I get thirty from? In this workout you could only do a maximum of 24 sets total. Well, feel free to tack on some ab work, calf work, rotator cuff work, etc. at the end, just realize that you will be a bit fatigued! 
Also, what about the Olympic lifts? Can they be used in this program? Yes and No! Is that vague enough? You may use them in the first complex, but after it, use only "slow movements" as Zatsiorsky terms them. Therefore a routine using the Clean Pull may look like this:

A1) Clean Pull 
Sets: 5 
Reps: 3-4 
Tempo: N/A 
Rest: 5 minutes 

B1) Front Squat 
Sets: 4 
Reps: 6 
Tempo: 4010 
Rest: 4 minutes 

C1) Heels Elevated back Squat 
Sets: 2 
Reps: 12-15 
Tempo: 2020 
Rest: 90 seconds 

There are many ways to induce functional hypertrophy please don't think that this is the only or even necessarily the best way. It just happens to be a very good way to put on quality mass quickly for a lot of athletes, a lot of the time. Finding the "best" way would be determined by about a million individual factors. However, I have successfully used this method before in many different situations. It's very versatile in the ways in which it can be adjusted for the individual's needs via loading parameters or a specific exercise. If you try it out let me know how it works for you, and of course send any questions or comments to me via email (wilson@ironmag.com) or just post them on the message board. 

- Todd Wilson 



References: 

Pipes T.V. (1994) Strength training and Fiber Types. Scholastic Coach. March, 63: 67-70. 

Siff M.C. (2000) Supertraining 5th edition. Supertraining Institute, Denver, CO.


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## Big Smoothy (Apr 30, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> But why dont you just do the 6 weeks a year thing with very low doses just like Lee Priest does, because he wouldn't lie at all. Nothing makes you grow like KFC and McDonalds!



It's really funny reading how he says he loves fast food so much.


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## Mudge (Apr 30, 2005)

In one of his videos he describes his offseason cardio, as walking no more than 2 blocks to get KFC.


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