# Military Press  vs  Upright Rows



## Tough Old Man (Sep 20, 2004)

I'm starting to have a lot of shoulder pain when doing military presses. No shoulder problems w/ upright rows. Are they both fairly equal or is there something to substitute M.P with


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 20, 2004)

Are you doing your military press behind the neck? That's pretty much a death sentence for shoulders.


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## Tough Old Man (Sep 20, 2004)

in front


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## redspy (Sep 20, 2004)

Try using DBs instead.  Another thing I do is only lower the DBs until my biceps are parallel with the ground.  This reduces the range of motion, but definitely helps me reduce shoulder pain/strain.


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## P-funk (Sep 20, 2004)

if you are only going to parallel then you are pretty much just locking out your triceps.


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## pumpchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

Bent arm lateral DB raises are more direct and less stressful, provided you're warming up the shoulders thoroughly first. Don't go too heavy - moderate weight and quality reps provide superior tissue stimulation with less shoulder stress.

First though, i'd suggest that you stop the presses long enough to allow full recuperation in the shoulder area-if you don't do this first the irritation's not going to go away over time.

Upright rows have nothing to do with shoulders - traps, bi's, forearms.


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 20, 2004)

Laterals and overhead pressing aren't all that different, accessory muscles not included. The joint movement is almost identical. This should be your order of preference:

1) Do the lift that allows you to move the most weight.
2) Do what doesn't hurt.

Rule 2 generally supercedes rule 1.


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## DeadBolt (Sep 20, 2004)

pumpchaser said:
			
		

> Upright rows have nothing to do with shoulders - traps, bi's, forearms.



Your doing something wrong then.  If your saying when you do them the shoulders are not directly hit you should think about fixing your form.


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## pumpchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

Lateral movements are quite different and are more isolated from compound pressing moves, and as importantly, may prevent shoulder trauma - try different shoulder movements to see what will work without causing trauma.


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 20, 2004)

OK let's try this from a simple joint movement perspective.

Military Press: Your elbow moves in the same plane as your body, up and down.

Laterals: Your elbow moves in the same plane as your body, up and down.

Uprights: Your elbow moves in the same plane as your body, up and down.

I am right.


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## pumpchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

You're completely off-the upper arm movement's similar through part of the motion, but comparing a compound press motion with lateral raises is like saying that standing barbell curls are the same thing as isolation DB curls. Sure they hit the same muscle, but that's where the similarity ends. 

I suspect that your estimation of your knowledge far exceeds reality, based on your comments - the difference between a compound and isolation movement is beginner's stuff. I'll not bother reading any more of your mis-informed views or very predictable defensive reactions, which illustrate a low degree of understanding of the subject. Get to work and start readin' bro..


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## M.J.H. (Sep 20, 2004)

I completely see what SF is saying. He is right.


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## Cold Iron (Sep 20, 2004)

pumpchaser said:
			
		

> You're completely off-the upper arm movement's similar through part of the motion, but comparing a compound press motion with lateral raises is like saying that standing barbell curls are the same thing as isolation DB curls. Sure they hit the same muscle, but that's where the similarity ends.
> 
> I suspect that your estimation of your knowledge far exceeds reality, based on your comments - the difference between a compound and isolation movement is beginner's stuff. I'll not bother reading any more of your mis-informed views or very predictable defensive reactions, which illustrate a low degree of understanding of the subject. Get to work and start readin' bro..



lol


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## DeadBolt (Sep 20, 2004)

MonStar said:
			
		

> I completely see what SF is saying. He is right.


   He knows his shit.


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## kick_boxer (Sep 20, 2004)

I never use upright rows anymore because I noticed its hard to do them without hurting your elbows, and its bad for your shoulders even with good form. Substitute other back/shoulder/trap exercises for upright rows...youre on the right track with the lateral raises


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## V Player (Sep 20, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> Are you doing your military press behind the neck? That's pretty much a death sentence for shoulders.


Not for everybody. Id say Im doing alright with them. *shrug* 


But yeah.....lotsa people do get hurt with them.


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## DeadBolt (Sep 20, 2004)

kick_boxer said:
			
		

> I never use upright rows anymore because I noticed its hard to do them without hurting your elbows, and its bad for your shoulders even with good form. Substitute other back/shoulder/trap exercises for upright rows...youre on the right track with the lateral raises


Doing them with a BB may cause some pains but have you ever tried them with cables?  They work awsome and I no longer have any pains in executing them.


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## CowPimp (Sep 20, 2004)

Tough Old Man, I would suggest trying dumbells.  That may do away with the pain.  If not, upright rows are a pretty decent substitution.  Front raises are also decent, but I can't move nearly as much weight with front raises compared to the military press.

Military presses hurt my sternum.  They never used to, but they started to recently.  I still do them anyway.  I don't care.  I really like the military press.  I'll switch if the pain gets worst though.

Oh, by the way pumpchaser, I doubt you have anywhere near the knowledge that SF does when it comes to kinesiology.


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## pumpchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

You're probably right Cowpimp! *Yawn*


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## Duncans Donuts (Sep 20, 2004)

In terms of body movement, the upright rows, laterals, and military press will hit the deltoids in the same way.  I would consider the military press most productive because of how much weight you can use, but upright rows are great too.


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## gr81 (Sep 20, 2004)

> suspect that your estimation of your knowledge far exceeds reality, based on your comments - the difference between a compound and isolation movement is beginner's stuff. I'll not bother reading any more of your mis-informed views or very predictable defensive reactions, which illustrate a low degree of understanding of the subject. Get to work and start readin' bro..



well shit, look at the big nuts on pumpchaser... hey can I have some of your advise as well man


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 20, 2004)

It's almost humorous to deal with idiots. They talk game but lack ALL knowledge of the human body.

Funnier still is the way some people don't even understand the difference between isolation and compound movements and how the terms deal with joint activity. But then, I can only hope to teach. I can't hope every fool will gain knowledge.


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## Duncans Donuts (Sep 20, 2004)

An isolation exercise would be a single joint movement, if my understanding of it is right.  A concentration curl would be an isolation bicep movement for example, while a palm up pulldown would be considered compound, because the bicep is contracting via downward pull of both the elbow and the shoulder.


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## pumpchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

Thank you for teaching the rest of us unlightened ones. How much do we owe you for your superior insights not to mention humility? We will be eternally indebted to you, genius..


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## PeterGunz (Sep 21, 2004)

P-funk said:
			
		

> if you are only going to parallel then you are pretty much just locking out your triceps.




I was always under the assumption that going past parallel is bad.....in MnF (don't laugh) every example of this movement stops at parallel


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## P-funk (Sep 21, 2004)

PeterGunz said:
			
		

> I was always under the assumption that going past parallel is bad.....in MnF (don't laugh) every example of this movement stops at parallel




Full ROM all the time buddy.  if you are just going down to parallel and then back up (humerus moving from 90 degrees to 180 degrees rather than 0 degress, or as close as you can get, to 180 degrees) then how much movement at the should is occuring?  realy you are just locking out the triceps.


About lateral raises and overhead presses.  I see were SF is going with that.  The movements are not all that different (aside from the fact that one os compund and the other is isoloation) in that all that is occuring at the shoulder joint is abduction and external (or outward) rotation of the scapula.  Unless you do your presses like I do with my elbows pointing a little more forward (at about a 45 degree angle off my head), more in the scapular plane (between sagital and frontal).  Then the movement is closer to DB scaption.  But he is correct in saying that the joint movements of these two exercises are the same.

To the original poster:
You can try to do your presses in the scapular plane like i do(see details above).  They take some presure off of the shoulder as they allow the supraspinatus to move out of the way of possible impingment from the humerus.   With a barbell, simply take a closer grip than you normally would to achieve this movement.  The other thing you may want to do is stop doing things overhead for the next 3 or 4 weeks and work your scapula stabalizers (traps (especially trap 3), rhomboids, etc..).  If these muscles aren't functioning properly then you may be experiencing problem in you shoulder as you are not achieveing good gleno-humeral rythm which leads to muscles that are crossing the shoulder (18 in all if memeroy serves me correctly) getting in the way of moving bones and causing impingment or tearing.  I wuold perform horizontal retraction adn protraction and some horizontal rowing (cable rows etc).  Try to really squeezze the shoulder blades back and hit those muscles.  After a few weeks of this try doing some external rotation and then possibly some overhead work.  As SF said in his first post a pain free ROM is key here. 

-patrick


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## CowPimp (Sep 21, 2004)

P-funk said:
			
		

> With a barbell, simply take a closer grip than you normally would to achieve this movement.



Do you find this decreases the weight you are capable of doing?  I'm considering trying to do this, but it seems like it would place more stress on the triceps and take away from shoulder activation.  I would like a method of the military press that doesn't cause pain in my sternum.


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## pmech (Sep 21, 2004)

I was involved in a bit of a altercation and bruised several ribs in my lower cage. I found that during that time, I was able to elimninate all of the pressure/pain by sitting on one of the larger ab exercise balls and using DB's. I was not able to do as much weight obviously but it did allow me to keep the movement in the 8-10 range without pain.


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## DOMS (Sep 21, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> Funnier still is the way some people don't even understand the difference between isolation and compound movements and how the terms deal with joint activity.



Would you mind expounding?  I'd like to know more. Thanks.



			
				Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> But then, I can only hope to teach. I can't hope every fool will gain knowledge.



"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink;  But you can sure as hell drown him."


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## P-funk (Sep 21, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Do you find this decreases the weight you are capable of doing?  I'm considering trying to do this, but it seems like it would place more stress on the triceps and take away from shoulder activation.  I would like a method of the military press that doesn't cause pain in my sternum.



well if you are pressin gin the scapular plane then yes, it is much harder and will end up decreasing the weight you can do, until you get used to it.  We also bench with our elbows more in as opposed to flared out.  Both of those presses put more stress on the triceps but are safer on the shoulder joint, which has a high tendency to get injured.


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 21, 2004)

cfs3, the difference between isolation and compound movements is the number of joints involved.

For example, the overhead press. Your shoulders move up and down. As they go further up, you also extend your arms using your triceps. You extend your triceps when your elbow straightens. That means two joints are being moved, that makes it a compound lift.

In a lateral raise, the only motion happening is the raising and lowering of the shoulder. One joint moving is isolation.

The major confusion is some people believe the old magazines that an isolation movements isolates a single part of a muscle. What it really means is your isolating the movement to one joint.

I hope that answered your question adequately.


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## DOMS (Sep 21, 2004)

It did, thanks.

I've another question, if you don't mind:

Is the 'Clean and Press' a good exericse?  I see it for the great, overall, exercise that it is, but I feel that the switch from lift to raise is awkward.  I'm still new and using only moderately heavy weights and I can see this exercise becoming quite bad for the should joints, elbow joints, and lower back as the weight gets to a serious level.  

Am I wrong on this?


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 21, 2004)

I've never performed a clean and press, myself. I would imagine if your accessory work compensates for the stress it places on some joints (and spine) then you'd be OK.

I believe P-funk does these. He would have a better idea what accessory work is appropriate for that lift.


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## Julz (Sep 21, 2004)

Lotsa good opinions/advice here  I have all but stopped doing overhead presses with BB's due to the limits on plane of movement they allow. DB's provide for a greater ROM, but can also put you in a more "dangerous" position if you go too heavy. Upright Rows tend to hit my medial delts more, as well as traps (if I go with a narrow grip and pull to my chin), andI have no pain in my joints afterwards.


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## P-funk (Sep 21, 2004)

cfs3 said:
			
		

> It did, thanks.
> 
> I've another question, if you don't mind:
> 
> ...




I am big into the olympic lifts.  If you are getting into power cleans and doing them for heavy 1RM's then yes they can place great amount of pressure on the joints and spine.  But, not unlike hitting a 1RM squat, deadlift or bench press.  It is like anything, as SF said, train the accessory components, use solid form (which is paramopunt over anything) and you should be okay.  As far as what you can do, I'd work on my elbow flexability iin the rack position.  Go, to the smith machine and set it at shoulder level.  grasp the bar in the rack position and have a training partner gentely push your elbow upwards.  Work on a good "rack position" front squat as that will graetly affect how much weight you can clean.  Take a light weight and front squat it and sit in the hole as deep as you can for a 10 count.  then come up and change your footing, wider or closer depending on where your stance was at.  Do 5 reps per set.  Sitting in the whole will build up strength in your spine and wrists (holding the weight) as well as rear delts.  Chaning the foot position will help you find what is comfortable for you as well as prepare you for if a lift goes wrong and you don't pull yourself far enough under the bar, that way you can be strong in an position (wide, narrow, shoulder width).  Work light to start, I like to use just the bar or even a broom stick for beginners.  Then, work on your speed and pulling yourself under the bar.  I rarely ever go heavy on cleans (ie hitting 1RMs) because it depends what you are doing them for.  If you are lookign to compete then hitting 1Rms are essential.  However, for me I am jsut doing them to improve overal athleticism and explosivness.  That is why I take a weight and will do 2 reps for 10 sets with 30sec. rest inbetween.  It works not only on explosivness, power and foot speed but helps you gain better form.

here is a cool website to check out.  Also, get a good coach or someone that knows what they are doing to check your form and help you out on these.

olympic lifts


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## Johnnny (Sep 21, 2004)

Where is your shoulder pain exactly? Rotator cuff? Front Delts?

Do you do your military press behind the neck? B/c this puts a lot of strain on your shoulders & could hurt them as well.

If you do them behind the neck, I recommend switching them to the front & even trying standing military presses in the front.


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## DOMS (Sep 21, 2004)

Damn P-Funk, that was a seven course, intellectual meal!

Thanks for the good info!

On a side note, I still find it funny that most people view bodybuilders as meat heads.


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## tjwes (Sep 28, 2004)

Lateral raises hit the lateral head of the deltoid if performed correctly.

Presses hit the anterior delt as well as the lateral head,with some (very little) posterior head involvement.

Laterals and uprights bypass the anterior head almost completely where preses strongly activate it.

Most of the benefits of uprights are lateral head of the delt and traps.You can make them more effective by widening your grip and pulling to nipple  height only.

This seems to lessen the chance of injury.


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## chris2489 (Jul 2, 2005)

V Player said:
			
		

> Not for everybody. Id say Im doing alright with them. *shrug*
> 
> 
> But yeah.....lotsa people do get hurt with them.



People usually get hurt on them because they go past 90 degrees.


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