# I need to put on size without fat gain



## turboflash (Jun 25, 2009)

Stats
age 39
6' 3"
203lbs
10% body fat
Taining for 20++years
3 cycles completed
test E / Deca / Sus / EQ 12weeks on then pct was nolvadex

My diet is 3000 cal. and very clean
I run 8 miles a week and do sprints a the track 2 times a week
Weight train 5 days a week, Heavy weights 12 to 15reps


Goal weight 220lbs lean

current gear

test e / deca /  15 amps /  sus 250 / EQ

need some pct gear.


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## Mudge (Jun 25, 2009)

Raise calories slowly and carefully then. 

People who bulk by adding 2000+ calories over maintenance, end up eating garbage to try and be able to keep up with their new "diet." This is where the fat gains come from.


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## turboflash (Jun 25, 2009)

need some help planning 


500mg test E 2x a week
250mg deca 1x a week for my joints
300mg eq 2x a week
sus250 1amp per week
12 weeks on


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## Shadowcam (Jun 25, 2009)

Sorry but if you want to gain muscle you will have to accept you will gain a little bodyfat and fluid with it therwise you will just restrict your results.

I doubt very much you will gain anything on your current program. Your on fairly low caloric intake for your size and your also burning alot of calories with your intense cardio activities. Your body has no chance to rest, recover and grow.

I would drop a training day and reduce your cardio activities.

 Remember you need to be in a calorie surplus to gain weight so you need to adjust you caloric intake to above mantainance and increase them as you gain muscle throughout your cycle.


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## VictorZ06 (Jun 26, 2009)

If you are going to run both test e and sust together, I'd use the sust to front alongside of the test E.  But as stated above, the biggest problem is your diet/caloric intake.  Fix that before you do anything else.

/V


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## turboflash (Jun 26, 2009)

VictorZ06 said:


> If you are going to run both test e and sust together, I'd use the sust to front alongside of the test E.  But as stated above, the biggest problem is your diet/caloric intake.  Fix that before you do anything else.
> 
> /V



Ok for sure will up calories to 3500 than 4000 

Monday / Thursday - test E 250mg 
Wednesday - Deca 300mg 

Where should I put the sus 250 I only have 13 amps


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## Pirate! (Jun 26, 2009)

turboflash said:


> Ok for sure will up calories to 3500 than 4000
> 
> Monday / Thursday - test E 250mg
> Wednesday - Deca 300mg
> ...



Might as well ad the Deca to your Monday or Thursday shot so you don't have to inject as much. You should see good results with this cycle if you stick with it for at least 12 weeks, ideally 16. I'd add HCG. What is your plan for post cycle therapy? I'd leave the sustanon out.


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## turboflash (Jun 26, 2009)

I need pct gear nolvadex is the plan. 

Ok I'll save the sustanon for next cycle

I have 2 EQ 10ml  Should I work that into my cycle I talk to a couple guys they said yes.


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## VictorZ06 (Jun 26, 2009)

This is what I would suggest.  I would use up all the sust to front with for the first 2 weeks, 3 if you want.  Take 250mg 3X a week. (M/W/F)

Mon/Thrs. shots:

250mg test E (1-12)      TOTAL 500mg
200mg deca (1-10)       TOTAL 400mg
200mg EQ (1-10)          TOTAL 400mg

With this cycle, I would use both clomid and nolva for PCT.

And as for your diet, more cals and protein.  At 200 lbs. you should have not problem putting down 5-6K a day.  Protein, 1.5-2gr per pound.  Good luck!

/V


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## turboflash (Jun 26, 2009)

*Thanks , I'll give It a go.*



VictorZ06 said:


> This is what I would suggest.  I would use up all the sust to front with for the first 2 weeks, 3 if you want.  Take 250mg 3X a week. (M/W/F)
> 
> Mon/Thrs. shots:
> 
> ...


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## turboflash (Jun 26, 2009)

Also had some guys telling me not to put deca and eq in the same cycle because there the same kind of gear. What's your thoughts ?


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## Pirate! (Jun 26, 2009)

You are trying to mix too many steroids here.

I respectfully disagree with Victor. Adding that sustanon is overkill and may lead to health/emotional problems. 

There are a lot of adjustments one's body must make to accomodate hormone changes. Suddenly stacking that much test (even for just a few weeks) is a bad idea, in my opinion.

Leave the EQ out.

Weeks
1-10 Deca 250 mg/wk
1-12 Test E 500 mg/wk
HCG

This will do wonders.


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## VictorZ06 (Jun 26, 2009)

turboflash said:


> I only have 1 10ml bottle of Deca
> and 2 10ml of the EQ  so may have to cut deca to 1 shot a week.
> Is that cool?
> Thanks


What's the deca dosed at?  (How many mg per ml?)


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## VictorZ06 (Jun 26, 2009)

Pirate! said:


> You are trying to mix too many steroids here.
> 
> I respectfully disagree with Victor. Adding that sustanon is overkill and may lead to health/emotional problems.
> 
> There are a lot of adjustments one's body must make to accomodate hormone changes. Suddenly stacking that much test (even for just a few weeks) is a bad idea, in my opinion.



I know you are a fan of sust.  I frown upon sustanon to begin with and in my opinion, it's only good for front loading (unless you use over 1gr/wk).

Since he has it, might as well use it.  Once his body shuts down and stops making it's own test, I don't think it matters all that much if he adds some sust to the front.  If I thought it would cause him harm (more harm I should say), I wouldn't advise to do so.  As you know, all of the sust doesn't start working right away.  The added prop in the sust is really all we want from it.  So I'm not sure if I would say he is "suddenly stacking that much", in the first few weeks, the test e hasn't kicked in yet, only the dbol.  So in reality, the only things working are the dbol and prop from the sust.  Than gradually the other esters start to kick in.

He does not need it, I agree with that, especially since he is using dbol to front with as well.  But if I had it, I'd toss it in...as if it was prop.  IMHO. 

/V


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## turboflash (Jun 26, 2009)

Deca is 300mg per ML


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## VictorZ06 (Jun 26, 2009)

turboflash said:


> Deca is 300mg per ML



Great, 300mg a week is the min I would use.  So you have 10 weeks worth if you take 300mg a week.

/V


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## turboflash (Jun 27, 2009)

sust to front with for the first 2 to 3 if you want. Take 250mg 3X a week. (M/W/F)

Will I be only taken Sus first and then after its all gone start the test E, deca, eq or?

Mon/Thrs. shots:

250mg test E (1-12) TOTAL 500mg
200mg deca (1-10) TOTAL 400mg
200mg EQ (1-10) TOTAL 400mg


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## turboflash (Jun 27, 2009)

Like This:
Tues/Friday
250mg Sus (1-3)

Mon/Thrs. shots:
250mg test E (1-12) TOTAL 500mg
200mg deca (1-10) TOTAL 400mg
200mg EQ (1-10) TOTAL 400mg


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## VictorZ06 (Jun 27, 2009)

No, take everything in the beginning together.  Run the cycle as planned, but along side it, run the sust.

250mg sust (1-3) TOTAL 750mg (M/W/F)

250mg test E (1-12) TOTAL 500mg
200mg deca (1-10) TOTAL 400mg
200mg EQ (1-10) TOTAL 400mg

PCT: start week 14

/V


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## turboflash (Jun 27, 2009)

Ok Its on, Ill let you know how it goes.


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## turboflash (Jun 27, 2009)

What supplements you suggest, 
I'm taken:
animal flex - joints
animal stack - multi vit
fish oil
flax seed
twin lab. Aminos
vitamin E


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## VictorZ06 (Jun 27, 2009)

Creatine.


/V


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## Shadowcam (Jun 28, 2009)

Im with pirate on this one! Too many drugs in my opinion.

This is only your fourth cycle, thats nothing. I was still running 8 week cycles of 500mg/w of test only and getting great results for a few cycles. Then once results became minimal, I added another compound for a few more cycles and so on.

I have done alot more cycles than you and Im still not consuming the amount of drugs that you are. Im not a fan of mixing too many compounds, its just not neccesary and its unhealthy. Your well over a gram of gear a week already and your planning on stacking 5 compounds. Fuck that.

Hopefully you will get regular bloodwork done.


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## turboflash (Jun 28, 2009)

How's this look?

Ok, I may save sus for next cycle.

Can I mix some shots so I'm not sticking so much? 

250mg test E (1-12) TOTAL 500mg
200mg deca (1-10) TOTAL 400mg
200mg EQ (1-10) TOTAL 400mg


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## VictorZ06 (Jun 28, 2009)

You can mix all three if you wish, they are all oil based.  Good luck!

/V


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## turboflash (Jun 28, 2009)

Would you mix or just do 4 dif site injection 
Hey why do you think shadocam and pirate are so against the sus? 
My last cycle was test e / deca / sus seemed to work good.


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## VictorZ06 (Jun 28, 2009)

turboflash said:


> Would you mix or just do 4 dif site injection
> Hey why do you think shadocam and pirate are so against the sus?
> My last cycle was test e / deca / sus seemed to work good.



Well, adding the sust is a bit much and I do agree with them to be honest.

But on the other hand, if I had only 12 vials left, I would personally use them to front since it's not enough to run another cycle with.  No biggie.  If you didn't have the dbol as a kick, I'm sure they would probably be more for it.  

With your program, I would take two shots a week.  If your glutes are too hard to do, hit your quads, they are much easier.  Left/right - M/Thrs.  Keep us posted.

/V


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## turboflash (Jun 28, 2009)

Thanks for all your info


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## zedg (Jun 28, 2009)

dude what the hell is this advice? Is this your answer to everything? It clearly shows that you have got a very little tiny knowledge on how to put on muscles.
I would not reccommend that cycle to a horse. Lets hope researchers can harness and enhance neurogenesis, so it could lead to improved treatments for people with brain like yours.
I rest my case.





turboflash said:


> need some help planning
> 
> 
> 500mg test E 2x a week
> ...


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## turboflash (Jun 28, 2009)

*Ok what's your advice?*



zedg said:


> dude what the hell is this advice? Is this your answer to everything? It clearly shows that you have got a very little tiny knowledge on how to put on muscles.
> I would not reccommend that cycle to a horse. Lets hope researchers can harness and enhance neurogenesis, so it could lead to improved treatments for people with brain like yours.
> I rest my case.



I would like to know what advice you would give?


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## turboflash (Jul 1, 2009)

Pct ??


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## turboflash (Jul 2, 2009)

looking at doing clomid and nolva for PCT, Need some recomendations on amounts.


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## RoosterTX (Jul 2, 2009)

turboflash said:


> looking at doing clomid and nolva for PCT, Need some recomendations on amounts.



Turbo I think you might look into running 3-500iu of HCG every 4-5 days during the cycle starting day one week two.

On the PCT I think you can go with either nolva or clomid (plenty of old threads on PCT dosing), will you be running any AI on cycle?


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## raza abbas (Jul 4, 2009)

turboflash, Its good to know every body???s opinion and educate ur self but in last u have to stick with 1 opinion so I suggest go with victorZ06 cuz from the first day he is the one who educated me and clear my mind in the world of bodybuilding ??? if u like to see my pic go check them out its all victorZ06 knowledge that i use. I use his experience and u can see the results of my first steroid cycle ever???

I also respect other member???s knowledge like shadowcam, mudge and built etc etc so take their advice too but V for vvvvvvvvvictorZ06.

Be safe.


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## juggernaut (Jul 4, 2009)

Is this what you have currently, or is this your first ever cycle? I'm about to do my first cycle and I'm only doing test for 10 weeks. Keeping it simple has it benefits.  
PCT-I'd run Palumbo's recommendations. Nicely thought out and very thorough.


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## juggernaut (Jul 4, 2009)

Here's the article:

*POST CYCLE THERAPY*

 Whenever one considers stopping an anabolic steroid cycle, it is extremely important to wean yourself off of the drugs very slowly. For instance, if someone were taking 1000mg of sustanon per week, they would not want to just abruptly stop taking everything. The problem with just ???stopping??? a cycle, while taking such a high dosage of steroids, is that you may suffer the very unfortunate fate of ???crashing???. In bodybuilding circles, when we talk of ???crashing??? we are referring to the situation whereby the user abruptly stops taking any exogenous anabolic steroids yet they also have no endogenous (natural) production of testosterone (due to the temporary shutdown
 of their pituitary gland from all the aromatizing steroids the user is taking). Usually it takes approximately 2-3 weeks for natural testosterone to start being produced. It is during this 2-3 week period that the user is extremely vulnerable to viruses (caused by a suppressed immune system), low sex drive (caused by a low testosterone level), and worst of all, lean muscle losses (also caused
 by low testosterone levels). How can we prevent this ???crash??? of the endogenous hormonal systems from occurring? First off, in the first week, it is a really smart idea to slowly lower the amounts of all injected anabolic steroids (bring injected testosterone levels immediately down to 500mg per week). Secondly (week 2), go off all oral compounds and stop all injected anabolics (with the exception of long-acting injected testosterones???keep them at 500mg per week). It is a good idea to
 stay on long acting testosterones (such as testosterone cypionate or testosterone enanthate) as opposed to short acting ones (such as testosterone propionate or testosterone phenylpropionate) because the long duration esters will slowly leave the bloodstream over the course
 of 3-4 weeks (therefore, there will always be some hormone present) during which time the user???s body will have a chance to start producing endogenous testosterone. Thirdly (around week 4), following the last dose of injected
 testosterone, the user should start a 2 week course of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). Every second day, the user should inject 2000 IU???s of HCG. HCG is a hormone that mimics the effects of the pituitary hormone Luteining Hormone (LH). LH, in men, stimulates
 the leydig cells of the testicles to produce testosterone (this will effectively ???kickstart??? the inactive testes).
 Lastly (around week 6), Clomid (clomiphene citrate) should be administered orally at a dose of 50mg two times per day (for 2 weeks). Clomid is a synthetic estrogen that, in men, can perform two functions: a) Clomid antagonizes estrogen receptors (somewhat
 inhibiting the estrogenic side effects of aromatizing anabolic steroids).b) Clomid mimics the effects of the hypothalamic hormone Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GRH). In humans, GRH stimulates the pituitary gland to produce LH and Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH). This final role of Clomid, then, is to help awaken the pituitary gland that has been suppressed from the heavy anabolic steroid cycle
 that was just recently ceased. Once the last Clomid pill has been swallowed, it is time to allow
 the body to restore its natural endogenous hormonal system to normal. This restoration may take upwards of 2-4 weeks. I suggest staying off all synthetic anabolic steroids for at least 6-8 weeks following the ingestion of the last Clomid pill. This ???break??? should give your liver cells adequate time to detoxify themselves and your muscle cell receptors enough time to, once again, become receptive to anabolic stimuli.

*SUMMARY:*
 - HCG: 2000mg every second day for two weeks
 - Clomid: (start 2 weeks after conclusion of cycle) 50mg two times per day for two weeks
 - Aromatase Inhibitor: Arimidex (.5mg every other day) or TESTOSTOLYZE (5 pills every day)


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## Shadowcam (Jul 4, 2009)

That is a very similar PCT protocol to what I use and works very well for me and many others.


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## juggernaut (Jul 5, 2009)

the only thing stopping me is that you need to inject in the fatty area of your abs and that frrreaks me out.


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## nkira (Jul 5, 2009)

frrreaks YOU? OUT?.......you must be joking!....<Rubs sore abs>..ummm....ok, may be not.


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## turboflash (Jul 5, 2009)

*4th cycle*



juggernaut said:


> Is this what you have currently, or is this your first ever cycle? I'm about to do my first cycle and I'm only doing test for 10 weeks. Keeping it simple has it benefits.
> PCT-I'd run Palumbo's recommendations. Nicely thought out and very thorough.



This is my 4th cycle.


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## turboflash (Jul 5, 2009)

raza abbas said:


> turboflash, Its good to know every body???s opinion and educate ur self but in last u have to stick with 1 opinion so I suggest go with victorZ06 cuz from the first day he is the one who educated me and clear my mind in the world of bodybuilding ??? if u like to see my pic go check them out its all victorZ06 knowledge that i use. I use his experience and u can see the results of my first steroid cycle ever???
> 
> I also respect other member???s knowledge like shadowcam, mudge and built etc etc so take their advice too but V for vvvvvvvvvictorZ06.
> 
> Be safe.



I really do like victorZ06 knowledge, and Im running the cycle. 1st week went well. I will be turning it up everyweek as cycle goes on.


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## juggernaut (Jul 5, 2009)

agreed on mudge and built. Dont know much about the others, but from what Ive seen, they seem above average. Also, Pirate knows some good shit too.


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## VictorZ06 (Jul 5, 2009)

juggernaut said:


> the only thing stopping me is that you need to inject in the fatty area of your abs and that frrreaks me out.



Thanks for the kind words guys.

Bro, this is the easiest thing in the world to do.  You don't even feel it!  I wish I could take all my AAS via sub-q.  If 90 yr. old diabetics can do it, you shouldn't have a problem.  Good luck and keep us posted. 

/V


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## juggernaut (Jul 5, 2009)

Next time. I'm a newb right now, and want to do this singularly in terms of injections. Once I get used to pinning, I'll do it. And besides, I really dont know much about HCG yet.


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## Shadowcam (Jul 6, 2009)

You can inject HCG intra-muscular but Sub-Q is a far easier option especially if your pinning more frequently during a cycle.


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## turboflash (Jul 11, 2009)

*Almost 2 weeks In and up 5lbs*

Strength is off the chart! Diet is clean Running around 60/25/15 at 4000Cal & 400g protein a day. I will increase calories with training intensity.  Muscle look real full, and vascular! Body fat up just a little, abs still in.


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## redflash (Jul 17, 2009)

juggernaut said:


> *SUMMARY:*
> [/SIZE][/FONT]   - HCG: 2000mg every second day for two weeks
> - Clomid: (start 2 weeks after conclusion of cycle) 50mg two times per day for two weeks
> - Aromatase Inhibitor: Arimidex (.5mg every other day) or TESTOSTOLYZE (5 pills every day)



HCG for PCT?  And in those amounts? I thought the consensus was that it is best to run HCG during a cycle (from week 3), timing the last shot of HCG with the last shot of your average long-ester AAS (Test E etc).  This is mainly in order to avoid shutting the boys down in the first place but also because it converts to something which impacts the HPTA so if you use it for PCT then all you're doing is putting off the crash not softening it.  Or am I wrong?

Blackflash


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## Shadowcam (Jul 18, 2009)

What do you mean "putting off the crash"??


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## redflash (Jul 18, 2009)

Shadowcam said:


> What do you mean "putting off the crash"??



I mean HCG itself reinforces the shutdown of the HPTA by aromatising or being prostagenic or some feedback loop like that... the article someone cut and pasted talked about how to avoid the crash and I thought the advice about longer esters was sound but that on HCG was not.  Your balls might kick back in but the other bits of the axis (hypothalamus and/or pituitary) will stay surpressed because of the HCG... or something like that.

Lots of posts on cycle advice on this board: most say you should run HCG at 300-400 units every 3-4 days from week 3 to the last shot.  There is also evidence, I believe, that using HCG in too high doses desensitises the leydig (?) cells.

Just trying to clarify before loads of newbies desensitise their balls...

I'll see if I can dig out a decent post on this.


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## turboflash (Aug 27, 2009)

Big problem out of Test E / 4 weeks left
have plenty of sus250 can I sub it inplace of test e?


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