# Bulking but not wanting to add too much excess fat - 500-800cal surplus too much?



## NonStop (Mar 3, 2010)

Hi,

I figure when I get round to bulking I'll be 183lbs at 11%. I'll be exercising three times a week (which I've factored into each calculation). Using A lean body mass calculator (under advanced) my maintenance will be 2570.

Using Harris Benedict, it'll be 2780, and using Mifflin St Jeor it'll be 2650. As I don't want to bulk excessively and put on lots of fat, I'm following T Muscle Article called the Turth about Bulking (sorry, can't post links yet), which recommends 3270cals when bulking for my lean body weight. 

Given my maintenance and that I don't want to add much fat, is this too much? Using lean body mass indicator, thats up to an 800cal increase... For Harris Benedict, thats a 500cal increase. I know the calorie maintenance is an estimate, but would like to know if I'm going in the right direction or not. I want to add some muscle with very little fat gain basically.


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## kyoun1e (Mar 3, 2010)

I'd start with +500.

Anything below that and it gets difficult to track.

No need to start higher than that since you can play it conservative to start and increase slowly if you aren't gaining.

KY


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## Perdido (Mar 3, 2010)

The only way to know for sure is to keep accurate records, monitor bodyfat %, & weight.

There's too many outside factors to just go by guestimates like how active you are outside of training...etc.

I'd say +500 calories is a good starting point.


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## fufu (Mar 3, 2010)

NonStop said:


> Hi,
> 
> I figure when I get round to bulking I'll be 183lbs at 11%. I'll be exercising three times a week (which I've factored into each calculation). Using A lean body mass calculator (under advanced) my maintenance will be 2570.
> 
> ...



I've found caloric expenditure factor equations don't do much for me. The caloric level they offer me to maintain weight on is less than I cut with!

I think the best route is to learn your real maintenance caloric intake level. That way, you just plug in the numbers and there is no need to guess. Assuming you do the hard work, results will come.

As for 500 or 800 calories over maintenance, assuming you know you maintenance caloric level, I'd go with 500 to start off with. Everybody responds differently. If you find 500 isn't enough, you can always move it up. Better to start things more conservative. Always be open to the idea of tweaking your caloric intake to what works best for you, don't get too concerned with specific numbers.


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## NonStop (Mar 4, 2010)

Cheers for the responses people. I'm nto going to be really sure of my maintenance as I'll be cutting and suddenly bulking. However, I would imagine 2800 sounds about right, given what I've weighed before and what it took to maintain me.

I've had some nutritonists argue that for a bulk with minimal fat gain it should be 200-300cal surplus. Which makes me think that scaling back to 3070cals would be about right? As I said, I really don't want musch excess for fat.


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## kyoun1e (Mar 4, 2010)

NonStop said:


> =
> I've had some nutritonists argue that for a bulk with minimal fat gain it should be 200-300cal surplus. Which makes me think that scaling back to 3070cals would be about right? As I said, I really don't want musch excess for fat.



Good luck trying to accurately and consistently nail +200-300. You risk just spinning your wheels because you're more or less still at maintenance. This will make for a frustrating bulk effort.

Also, be careful switching from cutting to bulking "quickly." There is risk of fat gains moving to bulk mode immediately after cutting. Better to move to maintenance first for a week or two then bulk.

KY


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## fufu (Mar 4, 2010)

kyoun1e said:


> Good luck trying to accurately and consistently nail +200-300. You risk just spinning your wheels because you're more or less still at maintenance. This will make for a frustrating bulk effort.
> 
> Also, be careful switching from cutting to bulking "quickly." There is risk of fat gains moving to bulk mode immediately after cutting. Better to move to maintenance first for a week or two then bulk.
> 
> KY



Where are you getting your information that there is a risk of undue fat gains from moving straight from a caloric deficit to a surplus?


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## fufu (Mar 4, 2010)

NonStop said:


> Cheers for the responses people. I'm nto going to be really sure of my maintenance as I'll be cutting and suddenly bulking. However, I would imagine 2800 sounds about right, given what I've weighed before and what it took to maintain me.
> 
> I've had some nutritonists argue that for a bulk with minimal fat gain it should be 200-300cal surplus. Which makes me think that scaling back to 3070cals would be about right? As I said, I really don't want musch excess for fat.



I agree that 200-300 will be hard to calculate accurately. There will always be discrepancies in caloric measurements, no matter how detailed your observations are. 

I'm going to throw out a number based on personal experience that there will always be an error range of about 50-150 plus or minus total calories counted. The numbers are fairly arbitrary, but you get my point.


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## NonStop (Mar 4, 2010)

fufu said:


> I agree that 200-300 will be hard to calculate accurately. There will always be discrepancies in caloric measurements, no matter how detailed your observations are.
> 
> I'm going to throw out a number based on personal experience that there will always be an error range of about 50-150 plus or minus total calories counted. The numbers are fairly arbitrary, but you get my point.



I do indeed see your point. I might well add 400 then. I just worry about adding fat, getting leaner every week, and love looking like this, but at the same time want to add some muscle mass...

May I ask, as I'm gonna find it hard to maintenance, would you have an idea what it would be?

I am going to have a week off before bulking, simply because I'll be back home, should I see what calorific intake I'm having, see if it sustains me, and count that as maintenance?


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## kyoun1e (Mar 4, 2010)

fufu said:


> Where are you getting your information that there is a risk of undue fat gains from moving straight from a caloric deficit to a surplus?



Source = Lyle MacDonald.

Lyle advocates spending two weeks at "maintenance" after cutting in order to upregulate your systems and prepare it for the caloric surplus that comes with bulking. If you've been severly cutting with a serious deficit for any significant period of time your body is not going to just be able to turn on a dime and be able to deal with a sudden surplus. The risk: Spillover to fat.

In my experience, this two week period has worked well. 

And really, it makes sense. I don't know about you, but if I've been cutting severly for a period of time and lifting with intensity I'm somewhat of a shambles by the end. I need a couple weeks to slowly ramp up calories, get my body out of diet mode, and honestly, get it used to EATING again before it's really ready to eat, lift, and gain.

I'm sure one size doesn't fit all, but this seems to fit many well.

On the flip side, If I'm going from bulking to cutting I tend to skip a maintenance period. There seems to be mixed opinions on if a "hardening phase" is necessary going from bulk to cut.

KY


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## kyoun1e (Mar 4, 2010)

NonStop said:


> I do indeed see your point. I might well add 400 then. I just worry about adding fat, getting leaner every week, and love looking like this, but at the same time want to add some muscle mass...
> 
> May I ask, as I'm gonna find it hard to maintenance, would you have an idea what it would be?
> 
> I am going to have a week off before bulking, simply because I'll be back home, should I see what calorific intake I'm having, see if it sustains me, and count that as maintenance?



I hear exactly what you are saying. I've been petrified lately on bulk efforts that I'm going to gain too much fat. Reason why I went to a UD2 Mass approach (which is slow going). The thing is, you will NEVER gain LBM if you don't let go a little. The obsession with super leaness will hold your LBM gains back.

One way to combat this fear is to stick to a schedule that has you bulk for X weeks, but then cut right after for Y weeks to trim some of the fat off. Example: Bulk for 6 weeks and follow that up with 2 weeks of rapid fat loss. Then repeat.

As for finding maintenance, this is something you need to track and find for yourself. I found that starting at bodyweight x 15 got me close to the ballpark. I then fiddled from there.

KY


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## NonStop (Mar 4, 2010)

kyoun1e said:


> I hear exactly what you are saying. I've been petrified lately on bulk efforts that I'm going to gain too much fat. Reason why I went to a UD2 Mass approach (which is slow going). The thing is, you will NEVER gain LBM if you don't let go a little. The obsession with super leaness will hold your LBM gains back.
> 
> One way to combat this fear is to stick to a schedule that has you bulk for X weeks, but then cut right after for Y weeks to trim some of the fat off. Example: Bulk for 6 weeks and follow that up with 2 weeks of rapid fat loss. Then repeat.
> 
> ...



Cheers dude. Well, I'm gonna take peoples advice, I'm gonna go for a bulk and I'm not gonna get over-obsessed. I reckon my maintenance is around 2700-2800, I'm gonna go on a bulk of close to 3100, close to 3200 on some days. Take it from there, see what gains I make. 

Woudl really appreciate it if any of you could take the time to have a look at my workout in the training section, particularly the second post. If I feel comfortable with it for a week or two, I'll add some extra cals in to make it close to 3300, and defo be hitting around 500cal increase.


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## fufu (Mar 4, 2010)

kyoun1e said:


> Source = Lyle MacDonald.
> 
> Lyle advocates spending two weeks at "maintenance" after cutting in order to upregulate your systems and prepare it for the caloric surplus that comes with bulking. If you've been severly cutting with a serious deficit for any significant period of time your body is not going to just be able to turn on a dime and be able to deal with a sudden surplus. The risk: Spillover to fat.
> 
> ...



Good stuff, well explained, thanks.


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## NonStop (Mar 4, 2010)

kyoun1e said:


> Source = Lyle MacDonald.
> 
> Lyle advocates spending two weeks at "maintenance" after cutting in order to upregulate your systems and prepare it for the caloric surplus that comes with bulking. If you've been severly cutting with a serious deficit for any significant period of time your body is not going to just be able to turn on a dime and be able to deal with a sudden surplus. The risk: Spillover to fat.
> 
> ...



You reckon one week off will be ok?


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## kyoun1e (Mar 4, 2010)

How hard were you cutting?

If you weren't cutting that severly that may be ok. Still risky.

I'd slooowwwly increase the cals each day so your body starts to recognize it's time to get out of diet mode.

KY


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## NonStop (Mar 5, 2010)

kyoun1e said:


> How hard were you cutting?
> 
> If you weren't cutting that severly that may be ok. Still risky.
> 
> ...



Around 500cal cut per day. Still am cutting. Think I'll take your advice, send a few days slowly adding cals before going for it.


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## NJ-Surfer (Mar 5, 2010)

I'm a bit confused about your uncertainty regarding your maintenance. It sounds like your currently on a cut diet


NonStop said:


> Hi, I figure when I get round to bulking I'll be 183lbs at 11%...


If so, what has been your average wt loss/week over the past 3 weeks?
Assuming your losing ~1 lb/week that would mean your roughly 500 calories/day below maintenance. To begin to bulk out of a 500 calorie/day cut just increase your calories by 1000/day. Forget the calculators the best data is empirically derived. Work with what you already have don't try and reinvent the wheel.



.


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## NonStop (Mar 6, 2010)

NJ-Surfer said:


> I'm a bit confused about your uncertainty regarding your maintenance. It sounds like your currently on a cut diet
> 
> If so, what has been your average wt loss/week over the past 3 weeks?
> Assuming your losing ~1 lb/week that would mean your roughly 500 calories/day below maintenance. To begin to bulk out of a 500 calorie/day cut just increase your calories by 1000/day. Forget the calculators the best data is empirically derived. Work with what you already have don't try and reinvent the wheel.
> ...



I get what you're saying about the calculators, but I'm on a 500cal cut from maintenance that has been determined by calculator, as I've never measured maintenance empirically. Weight loss seems to be about .5-1lb a week, and currently on about 2000cals, so plan to be eating a tad over 3000 when bulking.


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