# Bill Starr's 5x5 contradictional?



## Witchblade (Sep 16, 2006)

After seeing a lot of the newly hyped Bill Starr 5x5, I wondered why the program was widely considered so successful. 

A. 6-12 is generally seen as the perfect rep range for hyperthrophy. You have to  do some stuff in the other rep ranges too, but the main part of most bodybuilders' training is in the 6-12 rep range.

B. Bill Starr's 5x5 program is widely considered as an ideal program to build strength and gain muscle, yet the entire program is in the 3 or 5RM range.

It seems A and B contradict each other. Is the 5x5 program mainly for strength and suboptimal for bodybuilders or is there something I'm missing?

Thanks in advance!


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## P-funk (Sep 16, 2006)

It is a great strength program because it sets you in an optimal rep range, with optimal intensity, and optimal frequncy to build strength.

As a program to put on size it would work provided that you eat enough food.  You are looking at the program as jsut 5x5, which is really an archaic way of looking at training.

People say, train 3 sets of 10, or 5 sets of 5.  That really means bullshit.  What does 3x10 tell me?  3x10 with my 10RM is different then 3x10 with my 12rm, which is different then 3x10 with my 15rm which is still different then doing a breathing set of 10 with my 8RM.  See what I mean?  The intensity is the key here.  Reps and sets tell us nothing about what the intensity of the program or the day is supposed to be.  I might be lifting my 5RM, but I might be doing 10 sets of 2 reps with it.  get my drift?  At first glance, 10x2, means nothing until i plug an intensity into the equation.  Then the trainign proram takes on a life of its own and it means something.

the bill starr program (or the additional programs that have been based off of it) take that into account.  For example, monday, you are working on 5x5 with the same weight.  That is your highest volume day, your hypertrophy day.  5x5= 25 total reps.  You are working with a weight that is about you 6-8RM so taht you can get 5 reps on all 5 sets.  8 sets of 3 is 24 total reps, 3 sets of 6 is only 18 total reps, and 10 sets of 3 is 30 total reps.  So, you can see that 5x5 actually falls into the mix of those rep ranges you are reffering to as "hypertrophy training".

Now, wed., is your lighter day.  It is your back off day.  Your unloading day of the week.  You are now taking the same weight you used on monday, decreasing it by 20%, and then performing 5x5.  So again, 5x5 on this day is not the same as 5x5 on monday and wont be the same as 5x5 on friday, as you will see.

Friday is the strength day.  here you are working up to a max 5 rep set.  balls out, give it what you got.  There are percentages set as to working up to that 5th set of 5 all out reps, but you get the drift.  You are warming up with 5 sets and then going for it on set number 5.  so, this 5x5 day has a complelty different response then monday's training day.

If we looked at the trainign week we have:

day1- volume
day2- back off
day3- intensity



make sense?


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## Witchblade (Sep 16, 2006)

Makes sense.

I've done some further research on the matter, as you have inspired me. I came up with some sticky-worthy reads about the program and training in general.

Here are some links:

*Bill Starr's 5x5 Program in-depth*
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm

*Basics of Training*
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/Topics/Training_Primer.htm

*Fiber Recruitment (Read nwlifter's AKA ron's posts) *
http://www.drdarden.com/readTopic.do?id=394848

*Periodization*
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html

*More on the dual-factor theory*
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/48-post3.html

Thanks for the help, your post and these topics sort of put the light on in my moonlit room. I can now actually see my desk in colors, instead of the black and white from the moonlight. 

I think I might even go on Bill Starr's program after a week of deloading. I've been doing push/pull/legs for almost 2 months now.


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## P-funk (Sep 16, 2006)

The bill starr program is execellent and you wont be disappointed.  it is a high volume squat program and it will really help you put your squat through the roof if you set it up properly.


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## Witchblade (Sep 16, 2006)

I suppose I can't incorporate Guerilla Cardio into the program because it is too stressing on the CNS?


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## P-funk (Sep 16, 2006)

Witchblade said:


> I suppose I can't incorporate Guerilla Cardio into the program because it is too stressing on the CNS?



this program is a lot of work on the lower body, it is a high volume squat routine.

I don't know to much about guerilla cardio.  It is a type of interval work, no?  You might be able to do 1-2 days of it, provided you are eating enough cals to sustain growth.


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## Witchblade (Sep 17, 2006)

It's basically the Tabata Protocol (sp?). 8 sprints of 20s with 10s rest intervals. I can't do it though, so I take 30s rest intervals. 

Link for more info: http://www.cs.unm.edu/~wneumann/files/guerilla_cardio.pdf

Thing is, I'd like to stay in top cardiovascular shape and the 5x5 program isn't going to do that. I might be able to do the program in the winter, when I can't sprint outside anyway...


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## P-funk (Sep 17, 2006)

Witchblade said:


> It's basically the Tabata Protocol (sp?). 8 sprints of 20s with 10s rest intervals. I can't do it though, so I take 30s rest intervals.
> 
> Link for more info: http://www.cs.unm.edu/~wneumann/files/guerilla_cardio.pdf
> 
> Thing is, I'd like to stay in top cardiovascular shape and the 5x5 program isn't going to do that. I might be able to do the program in the winter, when I can't sprint outside anyway...



you can do like this:

day1- volume day
day2- light aerobic cardio (to help recovery)
day3- back off day
day4- off
day5- intensity day (lower volume)
day6- tabatas
day7- off


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## The Monkey Man (Sep 17, 2006)




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## Witchblade (Sep 17, 2006)

OK great. Got myself a new program then. Deloading this week and starting next week.

@ Monkeyman: When I click on the picture, all I see is ads.


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## Trouble (Sep 17, 2006)

Rethink this approach:

day1- volume day
day2- light aerobic cardio (to help recovery)
day3- back off day
day4- off
day5- intensity day (lower volume)
day6- tabatas
day7- off

Recovery isn't going to be worth jack if you pile a tabata day on top of the intensity day.

I wouldn't combine them; see how you respond to the lifting program first, consider leaving off the tabata conditioning cardio for the present.


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## P-funk (Sep 17, 2006)

Trouble said:


> Rethink this approach:
> 
> day1- volume day
> day2- light aerobic cardio (to help recovery)
> ...





The intensity day is such low volume that there is no problem with doing the intense cardio the day after.

Intensity day on bill starr 5x5 is

1x5 squat
1x5 bench
1x5 row


Athletes do programs like this all the time.  The day following a football game is sometimes the athletes heaviest day of lifting.  Football games are super intense.

Tabata cardio is high intensity as well, but it is also very short in duration.  You can work hard or you can work long but you can't do both.  You are going to go in, and essentially get throuhg about 8 rounds of tababta.  With a 2:1 work to rest ration (20s on 10s off), this will amount of 4min of total work.

4min of total work is not going to kill, especially if you are doing only 15 reps of total work on the day before.  They could probably even be done in the same day (ie athletes that do heavy lifting and then energy system development work following that, or athletes that work at practice and do all their agility work and then go into the gym and do strength training).

Granted, witchblade is not an athlete (are you?), but the volume of both those workouts is so low that it isn't even in the same catergory anyway.

I mean honestly, you are basically saying.....if you are going to lift heavy....don't do anything the day before or the day after.  What about people that have phyiscal jobs (contruction?  land scaping? firemen?).  The volume is low, the body adapts.

Also, this first phase of the Starr Program is accumulation.  You want to build some fatigue and condititiong (enhanced fitness) before you get to the intensification phase.


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## Trouble (Sep 17, 2006)

Bill has them rest after the intense day for a good reason.

*shrug*  If you don't see it as a problem, fine, Patrick.  I was looking at it as a stored energy (glycogen, creatine) and tissue recovery issue (back to back high intensity days..).


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## P-funk (Sep 17, 2006)

Trouble said:


> Bill has them rest after the intense day for a good reason.



When?  I have so many Bill Starr articles.  he is a big time strength and conditioning coach.  He goes way beyond the 5x5 and takes into a lot of different training protocols and loads the guys up a lot.  there is a lot more to the 5x5 then just 3 days a week.  The template was written to give people an idea of how to organize training in the gym.




> *shrug*  If you don't see it as a problem, fine, Patrick.  I was looking at it as a stored energy (glycogen, creatine) and tissue recovery issue (back to back high intensity days..).



Again, how much glycogen is going to be lost with such a short training bout?   Creatine stores will be replenished after 3-5min.   15 reps is hardly a large amount of volume.  Usually people aren't even sore after the high intensity day (not like they are after the high volume day) so tissue recovery isn't really an issue after that day.  Like I said, the workouts are so short, that they are more like 1 workout just spread over 2 days.


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## Witchblade (Sep 17, 2006)

I'm not an athlete, no. I'll try out the program including the tabata training, and see how it goes. If you're not recovered enough for tabata, I always notice so I think that won't be a problem. If I'm not upto it, I'll skip it that day.

One more thing though, could I substitute deads for squats? I have trouble with the posture on the squat, my arms don't like to be behind the bar it seems. My arms always feel like someone's sitting on them while squatting, the 'tinkling' feeling, like when there's not enough blood in your arms. Could I do sumostyle deads of regular deads in place of the squats (and vice versa)? That would also increase my grip strength, something that is lacking a bit. Hack squats solve the problem too, but they're on machines so they're basically crap.


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## P-funk (Sep 17, 2006)

Witchblade said:


> I'm not an athlete, no. I'll try out the program including the tabata training, and see how it goes. If you're not recovered enough for tabata, I always notice so I think that won't be a problem. If I'm not upto it, I'll skip it that day.
> 
> One more thing though, could I substitute deads for squats? I have trouble with the posture on the squat, my arms don't like to be behind the bar it seems. My arms always feel like someone's sitting on them while squatting, the 'tinkling' feeling, like when there's not enough blood in your arms. Could I do sumostyle deads of regular deads in place of the squats (and vice versa)? That would also increase my grip strength, something that is lacking a bit. Hack squats solve the problem too, but they're on machines so they're basically crap.



do your arms go numb when you squat?  this sounds more like a shoulder problem then anything.

you can do deadlifts in place.  provided you keep yourself honest with your form and cancel the set once form starts to go south.  deadlifts can get dangerous doing reps if you aren't careful.

what about front squatting?

also, on day 2 you are supposed to deadlift AND squat.  so, what would you put in the place of the squat on that day?


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## camarosuper6 (Sep 17, 2006)

Floor rows are killer.

Soreness divine.


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## Trouble (Sep 17, 2006)

You've mentioned your going numb before when you did squats.  This is not natural (that tingling feeling is nerve pinching or damage of some sort).  Could be where the bar rests against the spine that you have a pressure point triggering, or you have a problem with nerve impingement when you pull your arms back behind the bar.

Ever tried it with just a bar?  Does it cause this same sensation?


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## Witchblade (Sep 18, 2006)

When squatting my arms don't go completely numb, but they start tingling and that continues for some minutes after the set too, affecting my arm strength. The bar doesn't rest comfortably on my traps/delts either, like a nasty pressure point. I get it without weights on the bar too, though a lot less. Also, my arms can only go so far behind the bar, forcing my hands to get into an uneasy position. When I squat, my hands are on the bar as wide as possible and my elbows are just slightly behind my back, instead of pointing away from the back.

Front squats are even worse, I really can barely do those. I can't even let the bar rest on my chest properly. I'd have to hold it in my fingertips. 

It's not the end of the world, but it's crappy. I've asked my dad to do squats and he's got an even worse problem. He can't do squats ór front squats with proper form because he can't put his arms/shoulders in that position. So it could be genetics, I guess.

If I could deadlift instead, I'd probably do sumostyle deads, because they work the legs more than regular deads. On day 2 I'll squat (less intensity anyway). I cán squat, it's just not comfortable. I'd like to do my squats last though (it's kind of demotivating and tingling hurts my following exercises).


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## P-funk (Sep 18, 2006)

Do sumo's work the legs more then conventional deads?  The ROM is a lot shorter!


Do your arms get numb doing anythign else?  Like when you place them over head?


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## Witchblade (Sep 18, 2006)

P-funk said:


> Do sumo's work the legs more then conventional deads?  The ROM is a lot shorter!
> 
> 
> Do your arms get numb doing anythign else?  Like when you place them over head?


Hm, odd. I feel it more in my legs when I do sumo's. Could just do regular deads though.

And no, they don't go numb on any other exercise, although I don't know about behind the neck presses (don't do those). I'll try next training.


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## P-funk (Sep 18, 2006)

Witchblade said:


> Hm, odd. I feel it more in my legs when I do sumo's. Could just do regular deads though.
> 
> And no, they don't go numb on any other exercise, although I don't know about behind the neck presses (don't do those). I'll try next training.



i didn't say that sumo's don't hit your legs.  i said that the ROM is less then convo.  

It sounds like it might be a bar placement problem then.  work on your set up.

no, don't do behind the neck presses.


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## Witchblade (Sep 20, 2006)

I found a solution.

We have a rubber attachment for the barbell specifically made for squatting in our gym. You place it over the barbell so you have a relatively soft rubber surface on your traps. There are 2 rubber poles that stick out from over the shoulders. You can grip those poles so you won't have to put your arms behind your back.

Basically, you're squatting like normal, but the barbell is covered with a layer or rubber and you don't hold the barbell, but the 2 poles attacked to the rubber part on the barbell. The 2 poles come from over your shoulders; the ends of the poles have grips on the place where your hands are at the end of a dumbell curl.

I've no idea what it's called or how to describe it differently. Does anyone know of this thing and is it good?


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## P-funk (Sep 20, 2006)

The manta ray.


it is good.  it makes squatting a lot harder because it sets it higher up on your traps and changes the trunk angle.  I know that louie simmons lists it as a variation lift for max effort days.

It is kind of like doing an olympic back squat.


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## Double D (Sep 20, 2006)

This is a fantastic thread. I have found out alot about this fantastic routine. I appreciate all the info. I have been looking into this alot over the past 2 months and I am about to start. 

So on your back off day (1x5) do you ramp up for 5 sets. Or do you just do a few warmups and do one good hard set?


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## P-funk (Sep 20, 2006)

Double D said:


> This is a fantastic thread. I have found out alot about this fantastic routine. I appreciate all the info. I have been looking into this alot over the past 2 months and I am about to start.
> 
> So on your back off day (1x5) do you ramp up for 5 sets. Or do you just do a few warmups and do one good hard set?



That is a great question.

The classic Starr 5x5 was 5 sets of 5, and there were specific intensities that you had to hit to "warm up" before your top end set.

I have seen other people now advocate just warming up and going for 1x5.

That is what I do.  I do my usually warm up (or usually I do clean and jerks before it, so I am pretty warm) and then I just hit my 1 set of all our 5 reps or 1 set of all out 3 reps, if I am in the intensification phase.


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## Double D (Sep 20, 2006)

Alright thanks P. I have heard it so many ways. You know how us muscle heads are we like to put our little twist on everything we see. I think I will simply warm up and go a single set from there.


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## P-funk (Sep 20, 2006)

Double D said:


> Alright thanks P. I have heard it so many ways. You know how us muscle heads are we like to put our little twist on everything we see. I think I will simply warm up and go a single set from there.



yea, I always felt like the ramping up of over 4 sets, to get to that 5th one, tired me out.  I do a lot of warm up and movement prep pre workout, so I take a few reps working up to my top end weight.  I may do 5-6 warm up sets, but usually the first 2 sets will be around 4-5 reps and then everything else is just single and doubles, just getting in the groove.


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## CowPimp (Sep 21, 2006)

P-funk said:


> yea, I always felt like the ramping up of over 4 sets, to get to that 5th one, tired me out.  I do a lot of warm up and movement prep pre workout, so I take a few reps working up to my top end weight.  I may do 5-6 warm up sets, but usually the first 2 sets will be around 4-5 reps and then everything else is just single and doubles, just getting in the groove.



That's how I generally warmup, and have my clients warmup, as well.  I feel that if you have already lubed up the joints sufficiently and increased core temperature a bit with a good dynamic warmup, then specific warmup need is minimal.  I just like to grease up the neural groove.  For most accessory work I will do maybe one warmup sets at 3-6 repetitions just to feel out the movement first, possibly a little more if the accessory work is on the heavier side.  For isolation shit I just stick it at the end and figure I'm already warm enough.


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## AzzaB (Apr 27, 2010)

P-funk said:


> It is a great strength program because it sets you in an optimal rep range, with optimal intensity, and optimal frequncy to build strength.
> 
> the bill starr program (or the additional programs that have been based off of it) take that into account. For example, monday, you are working on 5x5 with the same weight. That is your highest volume day, your hypertrophy day. 5x5= 25 total reps. You are working with a weight that is about you 6-8RM so taht you can get 5 reps on all 5 sets. 8 sets of 3 is 24 total reps, 3 sets of 6 is only 18 total reps, and 10 sets of 3 is 30 total reps. So, you can see that 5x5 actually falls into the mix of those rep ranges you are reffering to as "hypertrophy training".
> 
> ...


 

Hey Patrick

Great post, can I ask you to confirm 2 things for me, exercises and routine flow.

I read another post that shows exercises;

Monday:
Bench, Squat, Row (Dynamic Row but dont knowhow that is different from normal)
Wednesday:
Military Press, Deadlift, Squat, Pull Ups
Friday:
Bench, Squat, Row

Firstly are these the right exercises of the basic prgram?

If so I assume you overlay the Volume-Backoff-Intensity over the first 3 days, then the following Monday stays Volume but you do Mil Press, Dead, Squat, pull up, and then Wednesday you do go back to Bench, Squat, Row?

Am I on the right track?


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## gtbmed (Apr 27, 2010)

No.

That's the Starr/Pendlay version of the 5x5 program.  On Monday you do 5x5 of squats and you go for a 5RM on bench and rows.  On Wednesday you squat light, deadlift, military press/incline bench press, and do pullups.  On Friday you go for a 5RM on squats and do 5x5 on bench and rows.

Monday starts it all over again with squats, bench, and rows.


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## CowPimp (Apr 28, 2010)

The incarnations I have seen of this program involve periodization, and work at intensity zones that elicit both strength and hypertrophy.  Now, keep in mind, the ideal repetition range for hypertrophy is not necessarily 5-12.  Really, the ideal intensity zone for hypertrophy is your 5-12RM (70-85% of 1RM or so).  They are two different things.  Don't confuse the two as is often the case.

In the versions of this program I have seen, and I don't even know what the original is at this point because everyone has some tweaked version of it, involves basically 3 different loading parameters for the squat and big lifts in general.  You have a day where you work up to your 5RM over the course of 5 sets escalating in intensity.  This is a bit more focused on strength since this is about 85-88% of a person's 1RM, but you also get some volume in that ideal range for hypertrophy during the last 2-3 sets that you do.  Then there are days where you do 5x5 using the same weight the entire time.  This is more like 80% of your 1RM or so; the focus being more on hypertrophy.  Then there is a deload day where you using a lower load (20% less or so), and possibly a lower volume depending on which version of the program you are looking at.

Furthermore, just because 70-85% of your 1RM seems like the ideal intensity zone for muscle hypertrophy, it doesn't mean you can't get ANY working outside of this range.  It depends on a lot of things, one important factor being training status.  A really advanced trainee is probably not going to get shit out of working at 65% of their 1RM save for improved endurance.  A more novice to intermediate trainee might though.


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## DOMS (Apr 28, 2010)

CowPimp said:


> Furthermore, just because 70-85% of your 1RM seems like the ideal intensity zone for muscle hypertrophy, it doesn't mean you can't get ANY working outside of this range.  It depends on a lot of things, one important factor being training status.  A really advanced trainee is probably not going to get shit out of working at 65% of their 1RM save for improved endurance.  A more novice to intermediate trainee might though.



I did the Mad Cow variant and had great results.  However, the advanced lifters said that they couldn't go more than 3 or 4 weeks before hitting the wall.  So yeah, it's not so good for advanced lifters.


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## aja44 (Apr 28, 2010)

DOMS,
I've been reading the Mad Cow variation of the Bill Starr 5x5.  I just completed a 5x5 routine and deloading this week.  The variation of the 5x5 I was given was "balls to the wall" 5 sets of 5 at your max 5RM weight every time.  I would perform 2 sets to warm up and then go right to it.  If I struggled with getting the 5th rep I would drop down 10 or so pounds the next set and continue.  I was doing the following 4 day split:

Chest and Bi's - flat, incline, flys, preacher curls
Shoulders - front military, Arnies, side laterals, shrugs
Back and Tri's - Pull ups, Bent over Rows, Rear Delts, 1-arm DB
Legs - Back Squats, Leg Presses, DeadLifts, seated Curls
Off
Repeat

Prior to this I did a PRRS routine and found that I felt better and made more progress when I had the 80% rep range week and then the 70% Shock week before going back heavy.  I did 3 sets of 3 reps during Power, 3 sets of 6-8 reps during RR, and then 3 sets (all supersets with something else) of 12 - 15 during shock

From the Mad Cow variation, I think the build up day and then the deload day may be better than what I was doing?  Seeing that you had done this variation, do you recommend it?


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## DOMS (Apr 28, 2010)

aja44 said:


> DOMS,
> I've been reading the Mad Cow variation of the Bill Starr 5x5.  I just completed a 5x5 routine and deloading this week.  The variation of the 5x5 I was given was "balls to the wall" 5 sets of 5 at your max 5RM weight every time.  I would perform 2 sets to warm up and then go right to it.  If I struggled with getting the 5th rep I would drop down 10 or so pounds the next set and continue.  I was doing the following 4 day split:
> 
> Chest and Bi's - flat, incline, flys, preacher curls
> ...



I can't compare it to any other Bill Starr 5x5 as it's the only one that I've ever done; but I really did get good results.  The key is being able to make it past week 4.  That's the wall for any advanced lifter.

So yes, I do recommend it.

If you'd like, you can read about it in one of my old journals in the Online Journal section.


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