# Marijuana and Bodybuilding: The Truth



## Deeznuts (Jan 15, 2004)

Insipred by the training vs. alcohol thread I searced the internet in hopes of finding some articles on the adverse effects of marijuana while wait training. Sadly, I couldn't find anything 100% factual. I don't smoke myself (anymore), but have lots of friends who do. Does weed actually effect your body and muscle recovery?


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## Arnold (Jan 15, 2004)

It's difficult to find any real evidence/science, but I have read that it lowers T level in males.

http://www.projinf.org/pdf/marijuana.pdf


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## PreMier (Jan 15, 2004)

I agree with Prince.  Thats why you could give two shits about women when your blitzed.

Although I dont toke much anymore, maybe once a month. [img2]http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/images/smilies/smoking.gif[/img2]


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## plouffe (Jan 16, 2004)

Well makes you impotent i've heard. And the biggest part is that it makes you lazy / unmotivated. So i stay away from weed now..  sometimes


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## P-funk (Jan 16, 2004)

yeah, if I smoke pot my workout the next day is usually very sluggish and un-inspired.


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## I Are Baboon (Jan 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by P-funk *_
> yeah, if I smoke pot my workout the next day is usually very sluggish and un-inspired.



So don't smoke it.


 


I've never tried it myself.


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## P-funk (Jan 16, 2004)

I rarely smoke it anymore.  Maybe once every two or three months.  I am pretty much done with that shit.


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## Deeznuts (Jan 16, 2004)

When I used to smoke I would actually sometimes get HIGH and then workout. Sometimes I would have the best workout of my life (of course I could've just been thinking that) other times I just said screw it and went and smoked again. This is why I completely cut smoking and alcohol out of my diet. I was just wanting some information to persuade all my friends not to smoke (most of them are into bodybuilding and i'm starting to see their lives go downhill.) I guess I could mention the lowered testosterone though.


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## Deeznuts (Jan 16, 2004)

*throws in s'more*

The munchies would usually fuck up my diet too.


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## jadakris31 (Jan 16, 2004)

ha no bud no beer... bodybuilding is a tough sport... munchies can be a good way to bulk though ha


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## cappo5150 (Jan 16, 2004)

I honestly don't miss my smoking days, its been 8 months.  Ever since I quit, I've been working out.  Now I have extra $$$ for supps.


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## Trump (Jan 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by I Are Baboon *_\
> I've never tried it myself.




Same here

Had plenty of opps, just never felt compelled to.


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## Deeznuts (Jan 17, 2004)

I have a craving sometimes just becasue I did it for so long, but i've somehow convinced myself that it's the worst thing I can do for more body - not to mention the fact that i'm in the middle of competition season - so I just ask myself do I want to throw away all i've achieved with one blunt/joing? hell no!


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## Arnold (Jan 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by I Are Baboon *_
> I've never tried it myself.



damn, what college did you go to?


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## GodLift (Jan 17, 2004)

I've never tried it and i went to SIU...(southern IL university...Known for bein a party school hehe.)  I drank my ass off in college but never smoked weed...


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## QuestionGuy (Jan 17, 2004)

i have a friend, (well we used to be best friends), he somkes weed at least 4 times a week, and does a little E on the side, he started working out with me long long time ago and quit after only a month because smoking weed was more important to him than loosing his fat-ass, i admit to smoking weed a few times (13) but i was still in highschool back then and im glad i tried it but even happier that i was smart enought to make a choice to stay away from my old friends because i hear now that they even started "experimenting" with coke....... dumb idiots?!?!?!?!?!?


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## CowPimp (Jan 17, 2004)

I don't usually smoke but one or two  bong hits per day, at the end of the day, after I have finished all of my exercise and homework.  Sometimes I won't smoke if I simply don't have time, but most days I am able to.  I still gained 70 pounds on my benchpress, lost some fat, and gained 25 pounds in 6 months of lifting/cardio while smoking a small amount daily.

Also, I used to smoke a lot more when I was younger.  The strongest I've ever been was when I was a big pothead.  I weighed 205 and was benchpressing a max of about 275 when I was 14.  I used to even weight lift while I was stoned, which didn't seem to be much of a problem.  In fact, I kind of liked it because it numbed some of the muscle burn.  It made it easier for me to go to failure on sets of above 6 repititions.

The biggest problem I can see is that it will demotivate some people.  Also, if you are a very heavy smoker, then your blood flow becomes somewhat impeded.  I think the key is moderation.  Although I smoke every day, I don't let it interfere with my life.


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## Ralphie (Jan 17, 2004)

How are you dumb if you experiment with coke?

I can understand dumb if you are a frequent user/addict....


I'm definetly not dumb


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## QuestionGuy (Jan 17, 2004)

ok, so go "experiment" with some heroin and come back and tell us how it is than ok ??? and whike you are at it go try some Acid, psp, lsd etc... and come back and report, " there is nothing dumb" with that,


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## HoldDaMayo (Jan 17, 2004)

marijuana should be legal... it's not that bad at all... it's just that people are very stupid and abuse things...


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## REACTION (Jan 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by QuestionGuy *_
> i have a friend, (well we used to be best friends), he somkes weed at least 4 times a week, and does a little E on the side, he started working out with me long long time ago and quit after only a month because smoking weed was more important to him than loosing his fat-ass, i admit to smoking weed a few times (13) but i was still in highschool back then and im glad i tried it but even happier that i was smart enought to make a choice to stay away from my old friends because i hear now that they even started "experimenting" with coke....... dumb idiots?!?!?!?!?!?



13 times hey, at least it didnt affect your ability to count! Look I agree toking the gunga is not a good idea if you cant exercise your ability to reason with what is going to fuck with you ie de-motivated, lowered T count. However, every one needs a release from time to time. Otherwise it becomes difficult to stay strict to your training plan and all sorts of other shit for that fact. Even the occasional line within reason - a birthday, new years can be helpful from a mental perspective, as long as it is restricted to those types of occasions.


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## Ralphie (Jan 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by QuestionGuy *_
> ok, so go "experiment" with some heroin and come back and tell us how it is than ok ??? and whike you are at it go try some Acid, psp, lsd etc... and come back and report, " there is nothing dumb" with that,




Ok, I only need to try one other drug off that list in order to come back and report and tell you its "ok" And I'm not missing the heroin.

As a matter of fact, I've been drug free for about a year now.
I have access to virtually any drug minus the acid (thats pretty dry across the country).


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## Ralphie (Jan 18, 2004)

And if you really want to get into the subject, I'd be happy to inform you just how harmless heroin is to the body in actuality. Its far safer (in respect to actual damage to the body) than a majority of other drugs out there, even weed or coke.

Heroin is an semi-synthetic opiate, its actually used by hospitals in the UK. Heroin functions the same way morphine does and for that matter most other opiates/opiods. Vicodin, coedine, etc....


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## Flex (Jan 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by HoldDaMayo *_
> marijuana should be legal...



i think the reason it is illegal is not b/c of the effects it has on you, but more because of its potential to be a gateway drug. ANYONE who says its not a gateway drug is full of, how do you say, shit.


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## Flex (Jan 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Ralphie *_
> I'd be happy to inform you just how harmless heroin is to the body in actuality.



OH REALLY? funny, i didnt know heroin was harmless. maybe i'll go out and try some. 

whats so harmless about it i wonder. the shared dirty needles? disease? overdose? addiction? what about the EFFECT of it? have you ever seen anyone on heroin? well, in case any of you havent, they can't exactly "function" too well.


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## gr81 (Jan 18, 2004)

weed is not a gateway drug and I can prove it to you flex. PM me and I will explain how. I don't want to get in a big big arguement with people over it.


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## RCfootball87 (Jan 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> damn, what college did you go to?


or high school for that matter, I go to a private high school with only like 300 kids, I've tried weed once but don't smoke it on any kind of regular basis, but there's kids my age smoking pretty much every day, even at my school.  At the big public schools, and catholic schools, forget it, potheads every which way, middle schools to.  Weed is everywhere these days, it's pretty amazing if you went to high school and college and never at least got a few opportunities to smoke weed.


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## Randy (Jan 18, 2004)

Nice point QuestionGuy.... 

Hmmmm maybe your not so bad after all :scratch 



> _*Originally posted by QuestionGuy *_
> ok, so go "experiment" with some heroin and come back and tell us how it is than ok ??? and whike you are at it go try some Acid, psp, lsd etc... and come back and report, " there is nothing dumb" with that,


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## tomas101 (Jan 18, 2004)

actually i keep hearing that smoking after a workout is good for you..lol..some say it allows you to eat more and it also has something to do with allowing more nutrients to go the muscles...a kid i went to high school with does this and he's quite big from the last time i saw him..so go figure


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## Randy (Jan 18, 2004)

I don't believe that any proof exists that can prove that smoking weed will not psychologically motivate or steer an individual into using other drugs.  So in light of that I would say it surely can be a gateway.  Naturally any marijuana smoker who is not immediately involved with other drugs would disagree.  IMO I say that it can without a doubt lead an individual to other drug use.  I don't believe any tangable proof against that theory could possibly exist.

You have to ask yourself, "why do people smoke weed?"
Isn't it to change the way they feel?  To relax you? To help take the edge off your day, like others say about a drink or two.
Well this is how it all starts, "harmless".  Then things in life happen for the worst, and you are suddenly introduced to other drugs that may make you feel even better than the weed made you feel....  So you try it.   Well this is how it happens with many individuals.  I'm not saying everyone, but it surely does happen.  And it is all triggered by the weed.  The same can hold true for alcohol or any drug.  You like the way it feels and want to try something else to make you feel better or different.

Just my 2 cents...   And I don't want to argue either...  so this is all I'm going to say on the subject.

Now I agree that there are medical benefits to smoking weed.
And for those cases, I support it whole heartedly.  But my point here was that it can be a gateway to other drugs.



> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> weed is not a gateway drug and I can prove it to you flex. PM me and I will explain how. I don't want to get in a big big arguement with people over it.


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## PreMier (Jan 19, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by HoldDaMayo *_
> marijuana should be legal... it's not that bad at all... it's just that people are very stupid and abuse things...




NO, marijuana should NOT be legal.  That would be a bad thing.  What they need to do is DECRIMINALIZE it.


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## Randy (Jan 19, 2004)

I think legalizing it for medical purposes is enough...
Makes ya wonder how things would turn out though if they legalized it.   It would close the illegal sales and distribution doors, but open the legal sales.  People would be growing weed everywhere.  Imagine all convenient stores selling packs of twisted cigarettes....  It just seems like that would send the wrong message.  I know weed smokers will always try to use the alcohol comparison though.


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## Deeznuts (Jan 19, 2004)

If marijuana were legal i'm sure people would start pushing for cocaine, heroin, etc. to be legal.


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## Randy (Jan 19, 2004)

Yes, people will always push....But there is no question that cocaine, heroin and those other hard core drugs would never even be considered to be legalized...  That would exist only in a drug users fantasy.


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## Deeznuts (Jan 19, 2004)

But that's exactly my point..if marijuana were legalized where would the line be drawn?


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## Flex (Jan 19, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> weed is not a gateway drug and I can prove it to you flex. PM me and I will explain how. I don't want to get in a big big arguement with people over it.



well, 99% of the kids from my town that did "hardcore drugs" (harder than weed) all started back in the day smoking weed when no one even knew what is was yet. 

obviously i can't prove its a gateway drug, but i dont think one can disprove it either. 

Probably 95% of people's 1st two "experiment" drugs in middle school or high school are alchohol and weed. they experiment, they like, they abuse. then when alcohol and weed dont do it anymore, they try other things....i.e. cocaine, x, painkillers, etc. if thats not a gateway drug i dont know what is.........


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## gr81 (Jan 19, 2004)

weed does not lead to other drugs. If a person is a drug addict/alcoholic then they will do other drugs. There are plenty of other people that smoke weed and never do any thing else. There is no correlation between weed and doing other drugs. People move onto other drugs b/c they are alcoholics, not b/c weed is a gateway drug. There are so may misinformation in our society about addiction in general, but especially about drugs and the stigmas they have gathered in our society. MOST of them are just plain ridiculous and completely untrue. Most of it is just propaganda our government dispells as "scare tactics" so people will not try them. Believe me when I say that I have spent MOST of my adult life researching and learning the FACTS about addiction and drug use in general. I have always been very interested in the subject of addiction and everything concerning it, I have read literature and studies over and over and I can safely say that most people in this thread haven't the slightest clue what they are talking about and are merely just operating off the stigmas this country has provided to them. Think about it Flex, the stupid shit that most people think about steroids and what they think is true about them. Then think about what is actually the case. It is just the same if not more so about drugs in this country. I am gonna spend some time and type out a study about weed and the truths of it so give me some time and you will read it.


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## Ralphie (Jan 19, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> OH REALLY? funny, i didnt know heroin was harmless. maybe i'll go out and try some.
> 
> whats so harmless about it i wonder. the shared dirty needles? disease? overdose? addiction? what about the EFFECT of it? have you ever seen anyone on heroin? well, in case any of you havent, they can't exactly "function" too well.




Ok, go back and reread my post. I didn't say disease was harmless to the body, I also didn't say that dirty needles were harmless. 

I said Heroin is harmless to the body in terms of the actual damage that the drug ITSELF inflicts. Sharing a dirty needle? Well, that sounds like a personal problem to me... if you are sharing a dirty needle and you get a disease or you fuck up your vein because the tip is dull after a few uses, that is not caused by the Heroin ITSELF.

Overdose? Yes, an overdose is very harmful, but provided you don't overdose, which is quite a simple matter actually it causes NO harm to the body. Statisically most overdoses occur because someone is mixing drugs, or they don't test their stuff before they take a large amount. For example, if you get a new bag of smack and you just inject what amount you usually inject, you could end up dieing as the purity of the heroin is going to vary beacuse its not standardized.

You know ol Benjamin Franklin? Opium ADDICT, Sigmund Freud... COCAINE ADDICT... what did they die of? Not an overdose. I could name many other founding fathers that were addicted to Opium as well... in fact.. a large percentage of drugs available in that day contained opium.. so basically the medicine worked and relieved you of symptoms cause it done got your ass flying like a kite.

Hospitals don't use drugs on patients that are going to do severe harm to their bodies. At least not drugs that in many cases have to be administered constantly and frequently, i.e. painkillers.
You think a cancer patients needs any other harm done to his body? If Opiates caused direct harm to a cancer patients body, than I doubt they would use them.. and seek an alternative means of pain control. The only opiate that I can name off my head that is slightly toxic to the body is demerol. Its a synthetic opiod.



As for having seen people on Heroin? How do they function? That all depends on how much they do.. ever seen someone on Vicodin because of their wisdow teeth? or oxycontin because of a chronic illness? Its the same feeling, the drug interacts the same way. It just depends how much they do. I myself have also done heroin, and I can say that when I tried it, I could have attended class or watched a movie or pretty much anything else. I may have not been motivated, but I could have if I had to.



As far as weed being a gateway drug, this is absolute crap.. why do people always start off doing weed first? Because its the first god damn drug they come into contact with. Weed is by far the most accepted illicit drug out there! Even the DEA, or FDA can't remember which either it was both, or only one of them made a statement saying weed is not a gateway drug, at least their researchers did, this was published a few years ago.


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## tomas101 (Jan 19, 2004)

weed is not a gateway drug..i smoked weed all through highschool and never wanted to do coke...plus look at amsterdam..they do fine for legal use of pot in the red light district..crime rate is actually better there than in the u.s. plus coke, heroin etc. is chemically changed, marijuana is natural..now poppy seeds are natural and so is cocoa but it is changed so, no it would not be pushed to become legal.


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## seven11 (Jan 19, 2004)

u are right randy........ i started drinking a lil bit when i was 17 u know just to kinda forget what kind of slaker i was in school... not that i was and complete idiot i didnt have the motivation for it no goal no plan nattin.... later on after the 2-3 beers came the 2-3 shots of vodka... not that i didnt enjoy gettin drunk with my buddies but..... didnt know how to stop.... so yea hahahah then came the unforgetible summer hahah my first 12 shots of vodka.... made me have a hangover for a week... and so on and so on but then finaly came a moment in my life when i look it the mirror and saw a f***in drunk looser........ so i decided to give it up forever because now im gonna be a f***in b-builder togther with the help of a good friend of mine screw the drugs and alcohol it aint worth it.... just gonna mess up everything


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## gr81 (Jan 19, 2004)

*An Article addressing the fallacies the marijuana Vs Tobacco argument*

This article is an attempt to point out some of the absurdities in the marijuana-is-bad-for-you-like-cigarettes aruement, as well as to take a few cheap (but well aimed) shots at the tobacco industry. It is written from a pro-marijuana-relegalization perspective, and if you want a copy, mail us a self addressed stamped envelope. An address and some sources are at the end.

So, you thought it was the tar that caused cancer.....

Think again. Cigarette companies will have you believing anything just as long as you continue to buy their products. The fact is, although insoluable tars are a contributing factor to the lung cancer danger present in todays's cigarettes, the real danger is radioactivity. According to the U.S Surgeon General C. Everette Koop (on national Television, 1990) radioactivity, not tar, accounts for at least 90% of all smoking related lung cancer.
	Tobacco crops grown in the United States are fertilized by law with phosphates rich in radium 226. In addition, many soils have a natural radium 226 content. Radium 226 breaks down into two long-lived ???daughter??? elements ??? lead 210 and polonium 210. These radioactive particles become airborne, and attach themselves to the fine hairs on the tobacco leaves.
Studies have shown that lead 210 and polonium 210 deposits accumulate in the bodies of people exposed to cigarettes smoke. Data collected in the late 1970???s shows that smokers have three times as much of these elements in their lower lungs as non-smokers. Smokers also show a greater accumulation of lead 210 and polonium 210 in their skeletons, though no studies have been conducted to link these deposits with bone cancer. Polonium 210 is the only component of cigarette smoke, which has produced tumors by itself in inhalation experiments with animals.
	When a smoker inhales tobacco smoke, the lungs react by forming irritated area in the bronchi. Al smoke produces this effect. However, although these irritated spots are referred to as ???pre-cancerous; lesions, they are a perfectly natural defense system and usually go away with no adverse side effects. Insoluble tars in tobacco smoke can slow this healing process and adhering to the lesions and causing additional irritation. In addition, tobacco smoke causes the bronchi to constrict for long periods of time, which obstruct the lung???s ability to clear itself of these residues.
	Polonium 210 and lead 210 in tobacco smoke show a tendency to accumulate at lesions in specific spots, called bifurcation, in the bronchi. When smoking is continued for an extended period of time, deposits of radioactivity turn into radioactive ???hot spots??? and remain at bifurcations for years. Polonium 210 emits highly localized alpha radiation, which has been shown to cause cancer. Since the polonium 210 has a half-life of 21.5 years (due to the presence of lead 210), it can be put in an ex-smoker at risk for years after he/she quits. Experiments measuring the level of polonium210 in victims of lung cancer found that the level of ???hot spot??? activity was virtually the same in smokers and ex-smokers even though the ex-smokers had quit five years prior to death.
	Over half the radioactive materials emitted by a burning cigarette are released into the air, where they can be inhaled by non-smokers. In addition to lead 210 and polonium 210, it has been proven that tobacco smoke can cause airborne radioactive particles to collect in the lungs of both smokers and non-smokers exposed to second hand smoke. Original studies conducted on uranium miners which showed an increase risk of lung cancer due to exposure to radon in smokers have been re-run to evaluate the radioactive lung cancer risk from an indoor air radon. It turns out that tobaccos smoke works as a kind of ???magnet??? for airborne radioactive particles, causing them to deposit in your lungs instead of on furniture. (Smoking indoors increases lung cancer risks greatly.)
	It has been estimated that the total accumulated alpha radiation exposure of a pack-a-day indoor smoker is 38 to 97 rad by age 60. (Two packs a day yields up to 143 rad, and non-smokers receive no more than 17 rad.) An exposure of 1 rad per year yields a 1% risk of lung cancer (at the lowest estimate.)
	Don???t smoke. Or if you do, smoke lightly, outdoors, and engage frequently in activities which will clear your lungs. Imported India tobacco has less than half the radiation content of that grown in the U.S.
	Kicking the nicotine habit is not easy, and nobody has the right to expect it of you. Often physical addictions are reinforced by emotional and psychological needs. Filling or coming to terms with those needs can give you the inspiration and added freedom to succeed.
	Most of all inform yourself, even if the information is disturbing. You are a lot less likely to be taken in by tobacco advertising once you know the facts.

	Nicotine, the highly active ingredient in tobacco smoke, has long been known to be highly addictive. In fact, doctors and pharmacologists are not in consensus as to which is more addictive, nicotine or heroin. Physical addiction occurs when a chemical becomes essential for the body or metabolism to function. In other words, a substance is said to be physically addictive if extended use results in a build up of tolerance in the body to the extent that discontinuing use of the substance results in negative side effects or withdrawal symptoms. These withdrawal symptoms can include anxiety, stress, trauma, depression and physical conditions such as shakes or nausea. It is to avoid these consequences that an addict will keep using their substance.
	In addition to being extremely physically addictive, nicotine is also a toxin (i.e. lethal if ingested in sufficient quantities.) Nicotine has been shown to have negative effects on the heart and circulatory systems, causing a constriction in veins and arteries, which may lead to a stroke or heart attack. In fact nicotine is so poisonous that smokers who ignore their doctor???s advice and continue to smoke while using dermal nicotine patches have managed to overdose and die of heart seizure.

	Many people think that smoking marijuana is just as harmful as smoking tobacco, but this is not true. Those who hold that marijuana is equivalent to tobacco are misinformed. Due to the efforts of various federal agencies to discourage use of marijuana in the 1970???s, the government, in a fit of ???reefer madness??? conducted several biased studies designed to return results that would equate marijuana smoking with tobacco smoking, or worse.
	 For example the Berkeley carcinogenic tar studies of the late 70???s concluded that ???marijuana is one and a half times as carcinogenic as tobacco.??? This finding was based solely on the tar content of cannabis leaves compared to that of tobacco, and did not take radioactivity into consideration.) Cannabis tars do not contain radioactive materials.) In addition, it was not considered that:
1) Most marijuana smokers smoke the bud, not the leaf, of the plant. The bud only contains 33% as much tar as tobacco.
2) Marijuana smokers do not smoke anywhere near as much as tobacco smokers, due to the psychoactive effects of cannabis.
3) Not one case of lung cancer has ever been successfully linked to marijuana use.
4) Cannabis, unlike tobacco, does not cause any narrowing of the small air passageways in the lungs.

In fact, marijuana has been shown to be an expectorant and actually dilates the air channels it comes in contact with. This is why many asthma sufferers look to marijuana to provide relief. Doctors have postulated that marijuana may, in this respect, be more effective than all of the prescription drugs on the market.
Studies even show that due to marijuana???s ability to clear the lungs of smog, pollutants, and cigarette, it may actually reduce your risk of emphysema, bronchitis, and lung cancer. Smokers of cannabis have been shown to outlive non-smokers in some areas by up to two years. Medium to heavy tobacco smokers will live seven to ten years longer if they also smoke marijuana.
Cannabis is also radically different from tobacco in that it does not contain nicotine and is NOT physically addictive. The psychoactive ingredient in marijuana, THC, has been accused of causing brain and genetic damage, but these studies have all been disproven. In fact, the DEA???s own Administrative Law Judge Francis Young has declared that ???marijuana in its natural form is far safer than many foods we commonly consume.???

	Another aspect of the drug war is the unreasonable measures taken as a result of ???reefer madness???. B/c of the long-standing anti-pot-smoking paranoia begun in the 1930???s, many law enforcement agencies have taken it upon themselves to censor and limit the marijuana culture through whatever channels they can find. This includes the banning of various forms of drug paraphernalia. (Pipes, clips, rolling papers, etc.)
	The sad fact is that water pipes have been shown to be extremely effective in removing harmful materials from smoke before it reaches the lungs. They also cool the smoke and prevent injury and irritation to lung passageways.

Produced as a public service by the University of Massachusetts at Amherst Cannabis Reform Coalition
Researched and Written by Brian S. Julin
Corrections, comments, inquiries should be addressed to:

UMASS CANNABIS
S.A.O. Box #2
Student Union
UMASS Amherst, MA
01003


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## gr81 (Jan 19, 2004)

*Some basic facts about marijuana*

DESCRIPTION 
Cannabis is a leafy plant which grows wild in many of the tropic and temperate areas of the world. It is cultivated both indoors and out for the production of its flowering tops. The most commonly used form of cannabis are the leaves and flowering tops (buds) which may be either smoked or eaten; It also comes in a more concentrated resinous form called hashish, and as a sticky black liquid called hash oil. There are three distinct species of cannabis: Cannabis sativa, Cannabis indica, and Cannabis ruderalis, though there is some argument as to whether these should be considered varieties rather than species. Most recreationally used cannabis is the result of interbreeding between these three types. The term 'hemp' is generally used to describe low-thc varieties of cannabis which are grown for industrial uses

PROBLEMS
Negative effects can include paranoia, dry mouth, respiratory problems and nervousness/racing heart. Other effects may be negative or inconvenient in certain settings or situations including reduced ability to concentrate, impaired memory, tiredness, and confusion. Side effects tend to increase with lifetime use: as users age, they often report the anxiety-producing and uncomfortable effects increase and the euphoria decreases.


Contraindications:
Avoid Driving - While there has been little formal study into the effects of cannabis on driving, it is generally a good idea to avoid driving while under the influence of any psychoactive or intoxicating substance. Several studies have shown that drivers who use alcohol and cannabis in combination are far less capable than when taking either substance alone. Some studies have shown that cannabis causes impairment in driving performance, but that users often are aware of the impairment and compensate by driving more carefully.

Addiction Potential:
Regular use of cannabis can lead to psychological habituation for some people making it difficult for them to quit. Studies have estimated that between 5 and 10% of those who try smoking cannabis will become daily users sometime during their life, but most of these smokers will have given up the habit by age 30 and few remain daily smokers after age 40. Most people do not experience signs of physical addiction, but with regular daily use use, mild to medium withdrawal symptoms usually occur for less than a week, but can extend for as long as 6 weeks.

Long Term Health Problems:
The most common negative health impact of regular cannabis smoking are lung and throat problems including: coughing, increased frequency of throat and lung infections, and reduced lung capacity. There are concerns about possible long term carcinogenic (cancer causing) effects of cannabis smoking, but the results are still somewhat controversial. It can be safely said, however, that health risks increase with frequency and duration of smoking anything.

Poisoning:
There are no confirmed, published deaths from cannabis-only poisoning. There are a small number of people who report serious cannabis allergies which cause unexpectedly intense reactions, throat & lung irritation, etc.

Heart Issues:
Because cannabis increases heart rate, it could potentially increase risks of heart problems in those at risk of heart disease. One study found that cannabis use increased the risk of heart attack in men over 40, but its findings were weak and based on a very small number of individuals. In a large study of 65,000 individuals in California by Sidney et al in 1997, cannabis was not found to increase mortality rates among users under 50.

Mental Illness:
Several studies have indicated that cannabis use (like many other strong psychoactives) can precipitate neuroses or psychoses in those who are already at risk. Studies have also shown that cannabis use does not appear to increase the risk of psychosis in otherwise healthy individuals.

Cannabis Health Concerns
by Erowid


* Every individual reacts differently to every substance. 
* Be mindful at every step.
* Know your body. Know your mind. Know your source.



Use of marijuana is relatively safe. There are no confirmed deaths caused by marijuana alone, although deaths can and do result from injuries sustained while intoxicated. When combined with alcohol, cannabis decreases driving ability and can contribute to traffic accidents. 

Negative Health Effects: A list of health-related references can be found on the Cannabid References Page. A very good introduction to the negative health effects of cannabis is the paper "Adverse Effects of Cannabis" by Hall W, Solowij N published in The Lancet, 1998 (14(352):1611-6). A brief summary of these can be found on the Cannabis Basics Page.

Some people may experience panic attacks (including extreme feelings of dread, accelerated heart rate, feeling as if they're going to die) from smoking cannabis. [See the Psychedelic Crisis FAQ for information about such an occurrence.]

Chronic smoking of marijuana can lead to respiratory ailments associated with smoke inhalation. A 1995 study suggests that use of a bong or water pipe does not necessarily lower the overall ratio of particulate matter to THC and may be counterproductive. In other words, it lowers the particulate matter, but it also lowers the amount of THC. For the same effects, a person may have to smoke more...thus raising particulate matter back to a level equal to that inhaled from unfiltered sources (joint or pipe).

Politics & Health: The political climate around cannabis and other recreational psychoactive substances has made it complicated to find balanced opinions about its safety and risks. The Federation of American Scientists has an interesting article on the issue of cannabis-risks and the political motivation on those on both sides of the issue.

Medical Marijuana Use
Marijuana has many possible medical uses. Positive effects are claimed for ailments such as cancer, AIDS, and glaucoma. AIDS can cause a loss of appetite known as the "wasting syndrome" which can lead to drastic weight loss and weakness. Chemotherapy used in the treatment of cancer causes nausea resulting in an inability to keep down food. Marijuana's healing nature for these two illnesses is a result of it's ability to increase a person's appetite as well as relieving nausea allowing a patient to regain weight. Marijuana reportedly helps glaucoma patients by reducing occular pressure which can cause damage to the eye.


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## gr81 (Jan 19, 2004)

*Health Effects of Cannabis Use: Ideology and Evidence*

Appraisals of the Adverse Health Effects of Cannabis Use: Ideology and Evidence

by Wayne Hall




The cannabis policy debate in the USA and many other Western countries has often been represented as a forced choice between two positions: Doves who argue that cannabis use is harmless, and hence it should be legalized; and Hawks who argue that cannabis use is harmful to health, and hence should continue to be prohibited. This false antithesis has prevented a realistic appraisal of the adverse health effects of cannabis (Hall, 1997). It has meant that the public have been exposed to two polarized views of the adverse health effects of cannabis dictated by their proponents' views on the legal status of cannabis. The Doves focus on the modest health risks of intermittent cannabis use; the Hawks emphasize the worst case interpretation of the evidence on the risks of chronic cannabis use. There seems to be an implicit agreement between Doves and Hawks that the acute health effects of intermittent cannabis use provide at best a weak justification for prohibition. The Doves stress that there is no risk of overdose from cannabis. The Hawks respond by pointing to the possibility of death or serious injury in a motor vehicle accident if cannabis users drive, and to the social consequences of engaging in risky sexual and other behavior while intoxicated by cannabis. 




Points of Dispute 




Hawks and Doves both accept that there is some respiratory risk from sustained heavy cannabis smoking but they disagree about its magnitude because they use different bases to assess it. Hawks stress the fact that on a puff-for-puff basis marijuana smoke contains more carcinogens and toxins than tobacco smoke (Tashkin, 1993). Doves (e.g. Zimmer and Morgan, 1997) point out that this comparison ignores two facts: that there are many fewer regular marijuana than tobacco smokers under current policies, and the average marijuana user smokes many fewer joints in a day than a daily tobacco user smokes cigarettes. Doves also discount the respiratory effects (e.g. Zimmer and Morgan, 1997), arguing that on current patterns of use the attributable risk of cannabis smoking to respiratory disease is very small by comparison with that of tobacco smoking; they ignore the amplification of risk among the minority of regular heavy marijuana smokers, many of whom are also daily tobacco smokers (Hall, 1998). 




Is Cannabis a Drug of Dependence




One of the most contested issues is whether cannabis is a drug of dependence. Doves argue that it is not because it does not have a clearly defined withdrawal syndrome. Hawks cite animal evidence of the development of tolerance to the effects of THC and the occurrence of withdrawal symptoms. Both arguments depend upon a narrow view of dependence that makes withdrawal and tolerance sine qua non for dependence. Modern concepts of dependence place greater emphasis on impaired control over use and continued use despite problems caused or exacerbated by drug use. In the latter sense, there is no doubt that some cannabis users want to stop or cut down, and find it very difficult to do so without assistance and support (Hall et al, 1994). Epidemiological studies (e.g. Anthony et al, 1994) indicate that impaired control over cannabis use is the most common form of drug dependence in the community after tobacco and alcohol. Doves contest these prevalence estimates and reports of people requesting assistance to stop using cannabis (e.g Zimmer and Morgan, 1997). They argue that the apparent increase in persons complaining of cannabis dependence is a by-product of drug testing and the promotional activities of a "cannabis treatment industry". Yet, population surveys suggest that one in ten of those who have used cannabis in their lifetimes have met criteria for dependence at some time, and 80% of these people have not sought treatment (Hall et al, 1994). In Australia, moreover, cannabis use is highly prevalent, drug testing is still rare and there has not been a cannabis treatment industry. Yet treatment services that traditionally treat people who are alcohol and opiate dependent have seen a steady increase in the numbers requesting help to stop using cannabis (Hall et al, 1994). The most contentious issue of all is the explanation of the association between heavy adolescent cannabis use and the risk of using harder drugs (MacCoun, 1997). Hawks see the association as evidence of the deleterious effects of cannabis on the development of young people, and hence, as a potent reason for continued prohibition. Doves, by contrast, see it as a consequence of two things: (1) the types of troubled adolescents who begin cannabis use early and become heavy cannabis users; and (2) the shared illicit drug markets for cannabis and harder drugs. There is evidence in favor of both (1) and (2): adolescents who initiate cannabis use early, and who become heavy users, are independently at higher risk of using other drugs (e.g. Fergusson and Horwood, 1997); and cannabis users are also more likely to keep company with other heavy drug using peers. But the association is not wholly explained by pre-existing risk and peer group affiliations so Hawks can still legitimately argue that heavy cannabis use by adolescents predicts an increased risk of harder drug use (MacCoun,1997). Hawks also contend that heavy cannabis use produces an "amotivational" syndrome. There is reasonable self-report data that cannabis intoxication can affect motivation but it seems unnecessary to invoke an "amotivational syndrome" to explain the narrowed interests, loss of motivation and achievement seen in some chronic heavy cannabis users. It is simpler to regard these as symptoms of chronic cannabis intoxication (Hall et al, 1994). A more realistic understanding of the health effects of cannabis demands more appraisals that are not driven by the appraisers' views on the legal status of cannabis (e.g. Hall and Solowij, 1998). Debates about cannabis, and drug policy more generally, are too important to be left to the Hawks and Doves. The challenge is finding the institutional arrangements and professional incentives that will encourage non-partisans from a variety of relevant disciplines to provide fairer appraisals of the health and social consequences of cannabis use and predictions about the likely effects of changes in the legal status of cannabis use. 




References




Anthony, J.C., Warner, L.A., and Kessler, R.C. (1994) Comparative epidemiology of dependence on tobacco, alcohol, controlled substances and inhalants: basic findings from the National Comorbidity Study. Clinical and Experimental Psychopharmacology, 2, 244-268.

Fergusson, D. and Horwood, (1997) Early onset cannabis use and psychosocial adjustment in young adults. Addiction, 92, 279-296. 

Hall, W. (1997) The recent Australian debate about the prohibition on cannabis use. Addiction, 92, 1109-1115.

Hall, W. (1998) The respiratory risks of cannabis smoking. Addiction, 93, 1461-1463.

Hall, W. and Solowij, N. (1998) The adverse effects of cannabis use. Lancet, 352, 1611-616.

Hall, W., Solowij, N. & Lemon, J. (1994) The Health and Psychological Effects of Cannabis Use. National Drug Strategy Monograph Series No. 25. Canberra, Australian Government Publication Service. 

MacCoun, R. (1997) In what sense (if any) is marijuana a gateway drug? FAS Drug Policy Analysis Bulletin, Number 2., 6-10.

Tashkin, D.P. (1993) Is frequent marijuana smoking harmful to health? Western Journal of Medicine, 158, 635-637.

Zimmer, L. and Morgan, J.P. (1997) Marijuana Myths: Marijuana Facts. Lindesmith Center, New York. 




Can Supply Factors Suppress Marijuana Use By Youth?

by Jonathan Caulkins




Monitoring the Future has consistently measured high school seniors' self-reports of drug-use and related variables for many years, and these time series show some striking correlations. One of the most widely reported is the strong negative correlation between prevalence of drug use and perceptions of the riskiness of that use (see, e.g., Bachman et al., 1988). For example, between 1981 and 1995 the correlation between four measures of high school seniors' marijuana use and their perceptions of the risk of smoking marijuana at three different intensities almost all ranged between -0.75 and -0.97, with an average correlation of -0.88.[1] This is sometimes contrasted with the fact that while there were substantial changes in self-reported use, there were only modest variations in reports of marijuana's availability. For example, past-year prevalence of marijuana smoking fell from a peak of 50.8% for the class of 1979 to a trough of 21.9% in 1992. The fraction of 12th graders reporting that it would be "fairly easy" or "very easy" to get marijuana also reached its peak and trough in 1979 and 1992, respectively. However, the absolute magnitude of the decline was much smaller, falling only from 90.1% to 82.7%. 

Some see in these data evidence that supply reduction has limited capacity to influence use. For example, Johnston et al. (1996, p.276) write that "Overall, it is important to note that supply reduction does not appear to have played a major role in perhaps the two most important downturns in drug use which have occurred to date, namely, those for marijuana and cocaine. . . In the case of cocaine, perceived availability actually rose during much of the period of downturn in use. These data are corroborated by data from the Drug Enforcement Administration on trends in the price and purity of cocaine on the streets. In the case of marijuana, availability remained almost universal to this age group over the last 18 years, while use dropped substantially until 1993. . . .What did change dramatically are young peoples' beliefs about the dangers of using marijuana and cocaine" (emphasis in original in all cases). 

There is no doubt that cocaine prices fell and availability increased during the 1980s, a time when cocaine use was declining, or that those trends raise serious questions about the ability of supply control efforts to control cocaine use, particularly given that the level and intensity of cocaine control efforts increased dramatically during that period. It is not clear, though, that the case is as strong regarding marijuana.

Consider first the availability of marijuana. That the indicator of availability was maxed out during this period does not necessarily mean that availability or lack thereof never affects use. It may simply mean that the measuring scale was not calibrated properly. When repairing an electrical device, if the voltmeter reading goes off the scale, one just switches to a more appropriate scale. One doesn't conclude that electricity has no influence on the operation of the machine.

A theoretical argument for this possibility is the observation that availability is not a binary condition, so availability can vary meaningfully over time even if the drug is readily "available" throughout the period in question. Regular heroin users would probably report that heroin was "fairly easy" or "very easy" to obtain, but we know they often spend 30 to 40 minutes per purchase trying to obtain it (Rocheleau and Boyum, 1994). An empirical argument for this possibility is the observation that the seniors' reports of availability were actually quite highly correlated with their self-reported levels of use. The specific correlation depends on the measure of use and the range of years, but it is generally between 0.75 and 0.85.

Of course correlation does not imply causality, and causality could run in the opposite direction. High prevalence could cause marijuana to be more available because it gives respondents a reason to be in regular contact with sellers. Nevertheless, it is perhaps safer to remain agnostic in the face of Monitoring the Future's availability data than to conclude that availability does not influence use.

The story is similar with respect to prices. Figure 1 shows a strong negative correlation between median national marijuana prices and seniors' self-reported use between 1981 and 1997.[2] Unfortunately price data are not available before 1981, and the series is noisy because there are relatively few observations per year and because we have no information on the quality or potency of the marijuana. Furthermore, these are prices paid by enforcement agents and are not restricted to the market for youth. Nevertheless, the negative correlation is clear. (The correlation coefficient is between -0.79 and -0.95 depending on the measure of use.)

Again correlation does not imply causality, and causal relations could run in the opposite direction. Price and measures related to consumption are determined simultaneously in a market. Without a good independent measure of supply or demand it is hard to interpret their relationship. For example, increased use could help drive down prices through enforcement swamping (Kleiman, 1993), although it does not seem likely that this could affect national prices. High school seniors account for a modest portion of all consumption, and overall prevalence did not follow exactly the same pattern as that seen in the seniors' data. More generally, there may be other factors, such as demographic trends, that drive changes in both prevalence and price. The number of 15-19 year olds was highly positively correlated with prevalence (average correlation over four prevalence measures was 0.9) and price (correlation of about -0.85). [3] 

Hence, the point of this essay is not to argue that changes in supply or supply control efforts substantially influence use by youth. One cannot draw such sweeping conclusions from such short time series, at least not without geographically disaggregated data. However, it would likewise be premature to dismiss the importance of supply factors on the basis of the Monitoring the Future data. Only more refined analysis can tease apart causal relationships in a highly endogenous system of variables.

[1] The levels of self-reported use were lifetime prevalence, annual prevalence, past-month use, and past-month daily use. The levels of use in the riskiness questions were trying marijuana once or twice, smoking occasionally, and smoking regularly. The one relatively low correlation was between lifetime prevalence and perceived risk of regular use, which was only -0.59.

[2] The marijuana price series was constructed from the Drug Enforcement Administration's STRIDE data set as part of work on two unrelated research projects. The methods are similar to those described in Caulkins (1994). For more information on STRIDE, see Frank (1987).

[3] Price correlation computed from 1981 to 1997 for mean (-0.84) and median (-0.86) price. Prevalence correlation computed from 1975-1997; restricting to 1981-1997 increases the average correlation to 0.94.



References 


Bachman, Jerald G., Lloyd D. Johnston, Patrick M. O'Malley, and RH Humphrey. 1988. "Explaining the Recent Decline in Marijuana Use: Differentiating the Effects of Perceived Risks, Disapproval, and General Lifestyle Factors." Journal of Health and Social Behavior. Vol. 29, pp.92-112. 

Caulkins, Jonathan P. 1994. Developing Price Series for Cocaine. MR-317-DPRC, RAND, Santa Monica, CA.

Frank, Richard S. 1987. "Drugs of Abuse: Data Collection Systems of DEA and Recent Trends." Journal of Analytical Toxicology. Vol. 11, Nov./Dec. pp.237-241.

Johnston, Lloyd D., Patrick M. O'Malley, Jerald G. Bachman. 1996. National Survey Results on Drug Use from The Monitoring the Future Study, 1975-1995. US Department of Health and Human Services, Washington, DC.

Kleiman, M.A.R. 1993. Enforcement Swamping: a Positive-Feedback Mechanism in Rates of Illicit Activity. Mathematical and Computer Modeling, 17, 65-75.

Rocheleau, A.M. and D. Boyum. 1994. Measuring Heroin Availability in Three Cities. Office of National Drug Control Policy, Washington, DC. 




Marijuana Arrests and Incarceration in the United States

by Chuck Thomas




There were more than 700,000 marijuana arrests in the United States in 1997.[1] This was the largest number in U.S. history. Of these arrests, 87% were for possession rather than sale or manufacture. The percentage of possession arrests has been at least 80% for more than a decade, and it has been rising throughout the 1990s.[2] The total number of annual marijuana arrests, having dipped in the 1980s, has been rising sharply since 1992. 

It is often asserted that these arrests rarely lead to any substantial penalty, and that therefore the costs of the current high-arrest policy, both to those arrested and to the correctional system, are modest. Some recent figures from the Justice Department's Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) cast doubt on that assertion.

Calculations based on recent BJS reports suggest that, at any one time, 59,300 prisoners charged with or convicted of violating marijuana laws (3.3% of the total incarcerated population) are behind bars, at a total cost to taxpayers of some $1.2 billion per year. They represent almost 12% of the total federal prison population and about 2.7% of the state prison population. Of the people incarcerated in federal and state prison and in local jails, 37,500 were charged with marijuana offenses only and an additional 21,800 with both marijuana offenses and other controlled-substance offenses. Of the marijuana-only offenders, 15,400 are incarcerated for possession, not trafficking.




The Estimates: State and Federal Prisons 




The BJS report provides data from the 1997 Survey of Inmates in State and Federal Correctional Facilities.[3] According to the report, 12.9% of the drug prisoners in state prison and 18.9% of those in federal prison were incarcerated for marijuana/hashish offenses. The report uses the numbers 216,254 and 55,069 as the total numbers of state and federal inmates, respectively, for all drug offenses. Using these numbers, the total number of people incarcerated for marijuana offenses would be 27,900 in state prison and 10,400 in federal prison, for a total of 38,300 marijuana prisoners.

However, this estimate of the number of marijuana prisoners is too low, as it is based on an estimated total number of all prisoners which the BJS report notes is an underestimate. 

The BJS report's estimates of the total number of drug prisoners represents 20.7% and 62.6% of the total estimated state and federal inmate populations, respectively. But the report notes that its estimated 1,046,705 state inmates and 88,018 federal inmates represent undercounts. Excluded from the BJS estimate of federal inmates were unsentenced inmates and those prisoners under federal jurisdiction but housed in state and private contract facilities. Those prisoners who were under state jurisdiction, yet held in local jails or private facilities, were excluded from the estimated number of state prisoners.[3]

An even newer BJS report provides accurate prisoner counts as of 30 June 1998--a total of 1,102,653 state prisoners and 107,381 federal prisoners. [4] In the Survey of Inmates, marijuana prisoners composed 2.7% of the state prison population and 11.8% of the federal population. Assuming that the proportions of drug prisoners to all prisoners--and of marijuana prisoners to all drug prisoner--was the same in the total prison population in June 1998 as in the population subject to the Survey of Inmates, there would be 29,800 marijuana prisoners presently incarcerated in state prisons and 12,700 marijuana prisoners presently incarcerated in the federal prison system, for a total of 42,500 marijuana prisoners.

This number is surprisingly high; the only recent published estimate, in a report by the Marijuana Policy Project issued in November 1998, put the figure at 29,300. [5]

Additional data obtained from a BJS official distinguish between offenses involving "marijuana only" and "marijuana and other drugs" (usually cocaine/crack). [6] According to the 1997 BJS prisoner surveys, 16,435 state prisoners and 8,150 federal prisoners were incarcerated for "marijuana only" offenses. Adjusting for the June 30, 1998 prisoner counts yields estimates of 17,600 state prisoners and 10,000 federal prisoners incarcerated for offenses involving only marijuana, for a total of 27,600 "marijuana only" prisoners.

BJS officials also estimated that 42% of state "marijuana only" prisoners and 23% of federal "marijuana only" prisoners were incarcerated for possession, not "trafficking." [6] ("Trafficking" includes "possession with intent to distribute.") Applied to the previously calculated estimates, as adjusted for the June 1998 prisoner counts, there would be 7,400 state prisoners and 2,300 federal prisoners incarcerated for marijuana possession only, for a total of 9,700 prisoners.




Local Jails




As opposed to prisons, which primarily hold persons convicted and sentenced to a year or more, jails generally hold persons awaiting trial or sentenced to less than a year. As of June 30, 1998, there were a total of 592,462 local jail inmates in the United States.[6] An estimated 22% were incarcerated for drug law violations in 1996.[7] Assuming that the same percentage applied in 1998, this amounts to 130,300 people in jail for violating drug laws. Assuming that the percentage of drug offenders in jail incarcerated for marijuana offenses is 12.9% (the same as the percentage of drug offenders incarcerated for marijuana offenses in state prison), there would be 16,800 people in jail for marijuana offenses. Assuming that 59% of those offenders were "marijuana only" offenders (the same percentage as in state prison), there would be 9,900 people in jail for marijuana only.

Both assumptions are very conservative: the proportions of people in jail for marijuana offenses, and for "marijuana only" offenses, are probably greater than those proportions among state prison inmates, because the penalties for marijuana offenses, compared to other drug offenses, are more likely to fall in the lower (jail) range rather than in the higher (prison) range.

Finally, an estimated 58% of drug law violators in jail are locked up for possession, not trafficking. [7] Assuming that the same percentage applies to "marijuana only" offenses, there would be 5,700 people in jail for possessing only marijuana.




Totals and Costs




Adding the jail and prison estimates gives a total of 59,300 people incarcerated for marijuana offenses. Using the adjusted estimates for "marijuana only" gives a jail-plus-prison total of 37,500 people incarcerated for marijuana without any other drugs involved. (To be even more precise, this figure ought to be adjusted to reflect the fact that the "lead charge" reflected in the Survey of Inmates may not be the only, or even the primary, reason a person is in prison; the data does not tell us whether this adjustment would, on balance, be up or down.) Finally, using the adjusted estimates for possession gives a jail-plus-prison total of 15,400 people incarcerated for possessing only marijuana.

At an average annual cost per prisoner-year of more than $20,000,[8] the total cost to taxpayers of marijuana-related incarceration reaches more than $1.2 billion per year. (This does not include the cost of investigating, arresting, and prosecuting the hundreds of thousands of marijuana users arrested every year.)




Conclusion




The benefits of marijuana prohibition and its enforcement have long been the subject of debate. For example, a National Academy of Sciences report recently concluded that "there is little evidence that decriminalization of marijuana use necessarily leads to a substantial increase in marijuana use." [9] However one judges the merits of that debate, the latest figures cast serious doubt on the argument that marijuana incarceration costs are low enough to be ignored.




Notes




[1] Crime in the United States: 1997, FBI Division of Uniform Crime Reports; Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1998; pages 221-222.

[2] Data print-outs from FBI Division of Uniform Crime Reports (e.g., "Estimated Drug Abuse Violations Arrests, 1979-1993") and Crime in the United States volumes published in 1975-1979 and 1992-1998.

[3] "Substance Abuse and Treatment, State and Federal Prisoners, 1997," Bureau of Justice Statistics; December 1998.

[4] "Prison and Jail Inmates at Midyear 1998," Bureau of Justice Statistics; March 1999.

[5] "Marijuana Arrests and Incarceration in the United States: Preliminary Report," Marijuana Policy Project; November 1998.

[6] Unpublished data from the 1997 Survey of Inmates in State Correctional Facilities and the 1997 Survey of Inmates in Federal Correctional Facilities, conducted by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, from June through October, 1997.

[7] "Profile of Jail Inmates, 1996," Bureau of Justice Statistics; April 1998.

[8] The 1997 Corrections Yearbook, Criminal Justice Institute; September 1997.

[9]"Marijuana and Medicine: Assessing the Science Base," Institute of Medicine; Washington, D.C.: National Academy Press, 1999; page 3.26 (prepublication copy). 





Drug Policy Analysis Bulletin

c/o Federation of American Scientists

307 Massachusetts Ave., NE

Washington, DC 20002


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## gr81 (Jan 19, 2004)

*Marijuana Myths...*

MARIJUANA CAUSES LUNG DISEASE 

It is frequently claimed that marijuana smoke contains such high concentrations of irritants that marijuana users' risk of developing lung disease is equal to or greater than that of tobacco users. 

THE FACTS 

Except for their psychoactive ingredients, marijuana and tobacco smoke are nearly identical. 21 Because most marijuana smokers inhale more deeply and hold the smoke in their lungs, more dangerous material may be consumed per cigarette. However, it is the total volume of irritant inhalation - not the amount in each cigarette - that matters. 

Most tobacco smokers consume more than 10 cigarettes per day and some consume 40 or more. Regular marijuana smokers seldom consume more than three to five cigarettes per day and most consume far fewer. Thus, the amount of irritant material inhaled almost never approaches that of tobacco users. 
Frequent marijuana smokers experience adverse respiratory symptoms from smoking, including chronic cough, chronic phlegm, and wheezing. However, the only prospective clinical study shows no increased risk of crippling pulmonary disease (chronic bronchitis and emphysema). 
Since 1982, UCLA researchers have evaluated pulmonary function and bronchial cell characteristics in marijuana-only smokers, tobacco-only smokers, smokers of both, and non-smokers. Although they have found changes in marijuana-only smokers, the changes are much less pronounced than those found in tobacco smokers. 
The nature of the marijuana-induced changes were also different, occurring primarily in the lung's large airways - not the small peripheral airways affected by tobacco smoke. Since it is small-airway inflammation that causes chronic bronchitis and emphysema, marijuana smokers may not develop these diseases. 22 

In an epidemiological survey, approximately 1200 subjects gave information on smoking and pulmonary function at two-year intervals. A large percentage of the subjects underwent pulmonary function testing. Although a small group who reported previous marijuana smoking had significant pulmonary abnormalities, current marijuana smokers had no significant reduction in any pulmonary functions. 23 
There are no epidemiological or aggregate clinical data suggesting that marijuana-only smokers develop lung cancer. However, since some bronchial cell changes appear to be pre-cancerous, an increased risk of cancer among frequent marijuana smokers is possible. 24 

Since the pulmonary risks associated with marijuana are related to smoking, the danger is eliminated with other routes of administration. For committed smokers, pulmonary risk might be reduced with higher-potency products, which produce desired psychoactive effects with less inhalation of irritants. Smokers could also be encouraged to abandon deep inhalation and breath-holding, which increase drug delivery only slightly. Finally, pulmonary risk might be reduced if marijuana were smoked in water pipes rather than cigarettes. 25 

MARIJUANA CAUSES BRAIN DAMAGE 

Critics state that marijuana has been shown to damage brain cells and that this damage, in turn, causes memory loss, cognitive impairment, and difficulties in learning. 

THE FACTS 

The original basis of this claim was a report that, upon postmortem examinations, structural changes in several brain regions were found in two rhesus monkeys exposed to THC. 51 Because these changes primarily involved the hippocampus, a cortical brain region known to play an important role in learning and memory, this finding suggested possible negative consequences for human marijuana users. 

Additional studies, employing rodents, reported similar brain changes. 
However, to achieve these results, massive doses of THC - up to 200 times the psychoactive dose in humans - had to be given . In fact, studies employing 100 times the human dose have failed to reveal any damage. 52 

In the most recently published study, rhesus monkeys were exposed through face-mask inhalation to the smoke equivalent of four to five joints per day for one year. When sacrificed seven months later, there was no observed alteration of hippocampal architecture, cell size, cell number, or synaptic configuration. The authors conclude: 
"while behavioral and neuroendocrinal effects are observed during marijuana smoke exposure in the monkey, residual neuropathological and neurochemical effects of marijuana exposure were not observed seven months after the year-long marijuana smoke regimen." 53 
Thus, 20 years after the first report of brain damage in two marijuana-exposed monkeys, the claim of damage to brain cells has been effectively disproven. 
No postmortem examinations of the brains of human marijuana users have ever been conducted. However, numerous studies have explored marijuana effect on brain-related cognitive functions. Many employ an experimental design - in which subjects are given marijuana in a laboratory setting, and then compared to controls on a variety of measures involving attention, learning and memory. 

In a number of studies, no significant differences were detected. 54 In fact, there is substantial research demonstrating that that marijuana intoxication does not impair the retrieval of information learned previously. 55 However, there is evidence that marijuana, particularly in high doses, may interfere with users' ability to transfer new information into longterm memory. 56 
While there is general agreement that, while under the influence of marijuana, learning is less efficient, 57 there is no evidence that marijuana users - even longterm users - suffer permanent impairment. Indeed, numerous studies comparing chronic marijuana users with non-user controls have found no significant differences in learning, memory recall or other cognitive functions. 58 

CLAIM #9: MARIJUANA IS AN ADDICTIVE DRUG 
It is now frequently stated that marijuana is profoundly addicting and that any increase in prevalence of use will lead inevitably to increases in addiction. 

THE FACTS 

Essentially all drugs are used in "an addictive fashion" by some people. However, for any drug to be identified as highly addictive, there should be evidence that substantial numbers of users repeatedly fail in their attempts to discontinue use and develop use-patterns that interfere with other life activities. 

National epidemiological surveys show that the large majority of people who have had experience with marijuana do not become regular users. 

In 1993, among Americans age 12 and over, about 34% had used marijuana sometime in their life, but only 9% had used it in the past year, 4.3% in the past month, and 2.8% in the past week. 59 
A longitudinal study of young adults who had first been surveyed in high school also found a high "discontinuation rate" for marijuana. While 77% had used the drug, 74% of those had not used in the past year and 84% had not used in the past month. 60 

Of course, even people who continue using marijuana for several years or more are not necessarily "addicted" to it. Many regular users - including many daily users - consume marijuana in a way that does not interfere with other life activities, and may in some cases enhance them. 

There is only scant evidence that marijuana produces physical dependence and withdrawal in humans. 
When human subjects were administered daily oral doses of 180-210 mg of THC - the equivalent of 15-20 joints per day - abrupt cessation produced adverse symptoms, including disturbed sleep, restlessness, nausea, decreased appetite, and sweating. The authors interpreted these symptoms as evidence of physical dependence. However, they noted the syndrome's relatively mild nature and remained skeptical of its occurrence when marijuana is consumed in usual doses and situations. 61 Indeed, when humans are allowed to control consumption, even high doses are not followed by adverse withdrawal symptoms. 62 
Signs of withdrawal have been created in laboratory animals following the administration of very high doses. 63 Recently, at a NIDA-sponsored conference, a researcher described unpublished observations involving rats pretreated with THC and then dosed with a cannabinoid receptor-blocker. 64 Not surprisingly, this provoked sudden withdrawal, by stripping receptors of the drug. This finding has no relevance to human users who, upon ceasing use, experience a very gradual removal of THC from receptors. 
The most avid publicizers of marijuana's addictive nature are treatment providers who, in recent years, have increasingly admitted insured marijuana users to their programs. 65 The increasing use of drug-detection technologies in the workplace, schools and elsewhere has also produced a group of marijuana users who identify themselves as "addicts" in order to receive treatment instead of punishment. 66


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## gr81 (Jan 19, 2004)

*Hey Flex, here is a response to your statement that weed is a gateway drug...*

MARIJUANA IS A "GATEWAY" TO THE USE OF OTHER DRUGS 

Advocates of marijuana prohibition claim that even if marijuana itself causes minimal harm, it is a dangerous substance because it leads to the use of "harder drugs" such as heroin, LSD, and cocaine. 

THE FACTS 

Most users of heroin, LSD and cocaine have used marijuana. However, most marijuana users never use another illegal drug. 

Over time, there has been no consistent relationship between the use patterns of various drugs. 83 

As marijuana use increased in the 1960s and 1970s, heroin use declined. And, when marijuana use declined in the 1980s, heroin use remained fairly stable. 
For the past 20 years, as marijuana use-rates fluctuated, the use of LSD hardly changed at all. 

Cocaine use increased in the early 1980s as marijuana use was declining. During the late 1980s, both marijuana and cocaine declined. During the last few years, cocaine use has continued to decline as marijuana use has increased slightly. 

In 1994, less than 16% of high school seniors who had ever tried marijuana had ever tried cocaine - the lowest percentage ever recorded. In fact, as shown below, the proportion of marijuana users trying cocaine has declined steadily since 1986, when a high of more than 33% was recorded. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Proportion of Marijuana Users Ever Trying Cocaine 

High School Seniors, 1975-1994 84 

1975: 19%	1980: 27%	1985: 31%	1990: 22%
1976: 19%	1981: 28%	1986: 33%	1991: 22%
1977: 20%	1982: 27%	1987: 30%	1992: 18%
1978: 22%	1983: 28%	1988: 26%	1993: 17%
1979: 25%	1984: 29%	1989: 23%	1994: 16%


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In short, there is no inevitable relationship between the use of marijuana and other drugs. This fact is supported by data from other countries. In the Netherlands, for example, although marijuana prevalence among young people increased during the past decade, cocaine use decreased - and remains considerably lower than in the United States. Whereas approximately 16% of youthful marijuana users in the U.S. have tried cocaine, the comparable figure for Dutch youth is 1.8 percent. 85 Indeed, the Dutch policy of allowing marijuana to be purchased openly in government-regulated "coffee shops" was designed specifically to separate young marijuana users from illegal markets where heroin and cocaine are sold. 86 

[Next Claim]


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## gr81 (Jan 19, 2004)

Do y'all need mreo or is that enough info?? cause I got more for ya. ha ha


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## PreMier (Jan 19, 2004)

VERY interesting read.... Thanks Gr81 

EDIT:  Shit.. only read the first one... posted the others while I was reading


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## oaktownboy (Jan 19, 2004)

please no more info ..haha


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## gr81 (Jan 19, 2004)

read 'em all fellas


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## oaktownboy (Jan 19, 2004)

my attention span isn't long enough


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## gr81 (Jan 19, 2004)

you will learn nothing with that attitude...


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## Randy (Jan 19, 2004)

I have another fact:  Marijuana is illegal in most states (actually every state), outside of medical usage of course.  Makes you wonder though with Gr's statistics why it continues to be illegal  ...   Is there a slight possiblitity that those facts are innacurate?  What criteria is used to capture accurate facts?  Why does it continue to be illegal?  If it is harmless as with alcohol if used responsibly, again why isn't it illegal?   Personally I am glad it is illegal, and would never vote to legalize it other than for medical use.   I think it does nothing for most people, but rob them of motivation, interest, and makes them look like shit....(Slanted red eyes like a damn rat)  
This is just my thinking...  When I was a kid like most everyone, I too smoked weed.  To this day though I don't know why I did.  I lost severe motivation, didn't care about much of anything including the way I looked or dressed.  The munchies would make me binge eat like there was not going to be any food left in the world.  I ate anything in site     Outside of that it made me very unsociable, and I didn't want to be around anyone.  I know it doesn't affect everyone like this, but sure did me.   Also I think it can affect students ability to retain what they learn.   This is the big problem with teens / high school students.  Well on the contrary of Gr's statistics, back in my high school years...70's weed was all over the place..  It was easier to point out those that didn't smoke weed than those who did.  And in my experiences 90 percent of those who smoked, experimented with other drugs.   I can't say how it is in high schools now, but it sure was an issue back in my days.


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## prolangtum (Jan 19, 2004)

Wether or not I am reducing gains or anything to that extent, when the day is all said and done, nothing helps relax me like a bowl or two of hydro


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## HoldDaMayo (Jan 19, 2004)

Cruise over Pro... I got u dawg... haha


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## gr81 (Jan 19, 2004)

hey Randy, there is 1 reason that it is illegal and one only, nad it ain't b/c my facts are not indeed facts. It is b/c the government cannot tax it like it can tobacco. It grows freely so they can''t make money off it. they can however make money off of fines and court dates when it is illegal. I know it pains you to see that I am right, but deal wit it.


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## Randy (Jan 19, 2004)

I can back you up on that as well Flex... This is exactly how things where in my high school days..  started with alcohol, weed, then anything else that would become readily available....  I remember hash, honey oil, hash oil, cocaine, speed (black beauties), cross tops, then came acid with printed sheets like Frankenstein and blotter, and 4way window pane, and purple microdot, and crank, crystal meth and you name it...it was all there... I even had someone offer me some PCP ...  Walked from that one.... But it is funny when the younger generation try to tell us how it was...
This was the drug era back in the 60's and 70's...  GR's ass was probably not even born 



> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> well, 99% of the kids from my town that did "hardcore drugs" (harder than weed) all started back in the day smoking weed when no one even knew what is was yet.
> 
> obviously i can prove its a gateway drug, but i dont think one can disprove it either.
> ...


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## Randy (Jan 19, 2004)

GR,

Yes, I do agree with you on that.  This is the one primary reason that weed will never be legalized.  Outside of that would be the impact the drug would have on society.  I know this will always be the topic of debate.

Oh, and it doesn't pain me to see you right GR... I am an open minded person.  I figured there would be something you would say that would make sense.  For that I have no choice, but to agree with you 



> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> hey Randy, there is 1 reason that it is illegal and one only, nad it ain't b/c my facts are not indeed facts. It is b/c the government cannot tax it like it can tobacco. It grows freely so they can''t make money off it. they can however make money off of fines and court dates when it is illegal. I know it pains you to see that I am right, but deal wit it.


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## Ralphie (Jan 20, 2004)

Would anyone like to take a stab at why weed was first made illegal? There are a few reasons... also, why was Opium made illegal?

Anyone?


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## tomas101 (Jan 20, 2004)

ahh yes hydro.. ahhh the memories...i havent smoked in sooo long...but i still like crypto better..

also gr81 is absolutely correct..thats the only reason why its illegal..


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## Deeznuts (Jan 20, 2004)

Excellent post Gr81, didn't know that about actual alpha radiation particles being in cigarettes! Bad things...and i've heard that's why marijuana was labeled illegal - the taxes.


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## CowPimp (Jan 20, 2004)

Another reason marijuana is legal is because of the company Dupont.  Many years ago, around the time it became illegal, they lobbied heavily to get marijuana made illegal.  Why?  Because Dupont was, and probably still is, a large supplier of nylon rope.  In particular, they supplied rope for the US military.  Hemp rope is a superior product.  Dupont wanted to eliminate the competition.

There are several other reasons.  This is just one that I found very interesting when I did a reserach paper on whether or not marijuana should be decriminalized.


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## I Are Baboon (Jan 20, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> damn, what college did you go to?



The people I hung out with never used it either.  It's not like I have gone out of my way to avoid it, the opportunity just never presented itself.    Alcohol was my drug of choice.

I went to a state college, lived with at home with my mom and commuted to school, and I worked three jobs to pay my own tuition.  My family has no money.  I didn't enjoy "college life" like most students get to, but now I reap the rewards on my hard work.


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## Randy (Jan 20, 2004)

I agree that GR's article is full of very interesting information....I do not agree with the later paragraph.  It implies that being high on marijuana does not impair your learning.  Personally I disagree with that one.   First off, long-term smoking severely affects your motivation..   When I say that, I am not talking about statistics I am talking about my own experience as well as others.  There was a period in my high school years where I went from an A student (Clean and not smoking weed) to C's and D's  (smoking weed consistently).  When I was high, I was like in another world.  I could not retain information from lectures or most other means.  In addition my attention span was very low and motivation levels minimal.  All I cared about was partying.  But again, just prior to this while clean I was a straight A student and very interested and motivated in school and learning.   Well anyway, after realizing I was having a problem I slowly faded away from the weed scene.  I stopped smoking weed at school first off, and guess what? My grades returned back to A's.  Now I know this was not just a coincidence.   And believe me, I was one of those marijuana supporters at that time too.   But until I could uncloud my brain with that bullshit could I really see the picture.
I have had many acquaintances who where undergoing the same situation...  I did know a few however, who unbelievably could learn and focus while high with no problem.  But only a very few that I knew could do that. So I know it does affect people differently.  But I do know a lot of people who could definitely vouch for the fact that being high on marijuana will absolutely impact your learning and motivation skills.  

The funny thing is that my marijuana use started with just a bong hit or two before bed as a relaxation aid.  Slowly it started to work its way into my life until it severely affected it.  Now when I look at people who are high, I guess it reminds me of my partying days and how irresponsible it made me.  To each there own though.  Nobody can convince another individual against something... They have to convince themselves.  Well it's now been at least 15 years since I smoked weed.  And I surely would never smoke it while bodybuilding.  Well didn't mean to bore you all with my story, but I just wanted to be real.


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## Flex (Jan 20, 2004)

well, alls i know is, me and my buddies, and all the "druggies" in my town started with weed. once that wasnt enough anymore, they moved on to shrooms, coke, E, dust, meth and everything else that isnt caused by this "non-gateway" drug.

being a former smoker myself, i def. say its a gateway drug.


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## Randy (Jan 20, 2004)

Yep Flex....  All those you named brings back memories 
Did a few shrooms in my days....  (powerful damn things) 
I took them after the non-gateway drug "Marijuana" too.  But don't tell anyone


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## gr81 (Jan 20, 2004)

b/c you smoked weed, that is not THE REASON you did other drugs. you did other drugs b/c you have adddiction in your genes and thats what addicts do. Weed is just where you started. If you never smoked weed, you think you would have never done any other drug? give me a break. Hey Flex I am in the same boat as you man, trust me. I started smoking weed when I was in like 7th grade. I have abused almost every drug in teh book, I used to pop Ebomb like it was candy, 6-7 at a time n shit. I used to eat shrooms by the ounce. I have abused ephedrine, I have abused anabolic steroids, I am currently in the midst of abusing oxycottin. I have probably done drugs that you never even heard of, and I tell you none of it was b/c I started smoking weed. The weed smoking was a by product of the addcit behavior, not visa versa.


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## gr81 (Jan 20, 2004)

by the way, people say that marijuana has estrogenic proporties, yet it doesn't aromatoze into the specific chain of estrogen necessary to make a difference withe your bodybuilding.


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## Randy (Jan 20, 2004)

GR,

I have heard this time and time again from weed smokers..
It is the most bullshit I have ever heard.  But you go ahead believing that story...  (Addiction in our genes)   Give me a break...  If that is the case, there sure is a damn lot of addicts in this world that just by coicidence happen to smoke marijuana   And Yes,  I believe that if I had never started smoking marijuana that I would not have tried other drugs.  The marijuana was the stepping stone my friend.




> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> b/c you smoked weed, that is not THE REASON you did other drugs. you did other drugs b/c you have adddiction in your genes and thats what addicts do. Weed is just where you started. If you never smoked weed, you think you would have never done any other drug? give me a break. Hey Flex I am in the same boat as you man, trust me. I started smoking weed when I was in like 7th grade. I have abused almost every drug in teh book, I used to pop Ebomb like it was candy, 6-7 at a time n shit. I used to eat shrooms by the ounce. I have abused ephedrine, I have abused anabolic steroids, I am currently in the midst of abusing oxycottin. I have probably done drugs that you never even heard of, and I tell you none of it was b/c I started smoking weed. The weed smoking was a by product of the addcit behavior, not visa versa.


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## gr81 (Jan 20, 2004)

dude, addiction is very real and yes most people are addicts. Whether or not everyone acts on their addiction is another story. You can believe what you want, I am tired of arguing with people when they have one knowledge of the subject, which you obviously don't if you think that the addiction genes is a fallacy. I tell you what, go ahead and read and read and read, and once you have read as much as I have on teh subject, then you can comment. Until then, believe what you want.


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## Randy (Jan 20, 2004)

GR... all I got to say is you must be high now   Maybe you should take another hit 

I am not saying that addiction genes do not exist...  You are trying to blow this topic out of proportion here...   GR, we are talking about marijuana influincing one to try other drugs, hence gateway.  Who is talking about addiction?   Where in the hell are you coming up with that.  We are talking about experimentation.
So where in the hell is "gene addition" coming from...  Dude, you are way out there man.  Take another hit.


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## gr81 (Jan 20, 2004)

yeah I am high now. you gonna pass dat shit or what......


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## gr81 (Jan 20, 2004)




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## CowPimp (Jan 20, 2004)

I think there are a few reasons that people consider marijuana a gateway drug:

One, people who smoke marijuana are more likely to try other things simply because that is the type of person they are.  They are more willing to experiment and try more things.  They are less concerned with what laws and governments have to say about the situation (Even though marijuana is legal in several countries, decriminalized in many more, and illegal but unenforced in many more beyond that).

Two, marijuana is easier to get than any other illegal drug.  If you hang out with a lot of people who smoke weed, then you may eventually meet people who sell marijuana in addition to other drugs.  Marijuana helps people gain access to the "counter-culture."  Without that access, it simply isn't possible to purchase other illegal drugs.

Three, because marijuana is less dangerous than most drugs, that is one of the first things people try.  However, people fail to mention that A LOT of people smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol before they ever smoke pot.  All drugs are gateway drugs; many people try one and naturally become curious about others.


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## tomas101 (Jan 20, 2004)

i did shrooms b4 weed,and i did extasy on my 18th birthday b/c i was wanted to do it out of curiosity and seeing girls become horny whores on it made me wanna try it even more...so that must make it a gateway drug..


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## Flex (Jan 20, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> If you never smoked weed, you think you would have never done any other drug? give me a break.



YES. 


but then weed wasnt enough anymore. so i tried drinking. drinking was fun, but then i tried other shit. and no, i dont have addiction in my genes. i have never been addicted to anything (except maybe for my new found drug:steroids). i dont smoke anymore, and i barely drink anymore. 
i never get addicted urges ljike people addicted to cigarettes/drugs. i say fuck it, i dont wanna drjink. 


and on top of it, the only best friend i have (there's 7 of us that i'd consider all best friends) that has NEVER smoked weed, has NEVER tried ANY other drug................go figure......................


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## gr81 (Jan 20, 2004)

that doesn't really mean anything. There are millions of people that are all different and for some of them, maybe marijuana led them to harder drugs. All I can say is that is not what it does. Like Cowpimp said and he made a great point, alcohol and tobacco are much bigger gateway drugs than weed in this country, it is just OK to do those ones. Obviously teh guy that doesn't try drugs has a stronger conviction than the rest of you. If he did smoke a bowl his life wouldn't go spiraling out of control in a drug induced frenzy b/c of it. If it wasn't teh weed it would've been something else.

PS.  by the way Flex, how you doin buddy. pretty excited I imagine with all the patriots fanaticism goin on over there!? In my own defense I knew they were gonna beat the colts, I was just going for the long shot, that all. ha ha. GO pats


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## P-funk (Jan 20, 2004)

creatine.............the gateway drug (for bodybuilders).......lol


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## gr81 (Jan 20, 2004)

ha ha. thats hella funny P.


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## Randy (Jan 20, 2004)

Yes, creatine is the gateway to steroids....(Just kidding of course).

No seriously GR you say that tobacco and alcohol can be gateways to other drugs.   Well your right! I suppose they can.
Anything that alters the way you feel can lead to other things.  Like it was mentioned,  you try one thing, you like the way it makes you feel, and after awhile it is not enough so you try other things.  But if you didn't get envolved with these drugs to begin with, chances are you wouldn't be trying other drugs period.


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## Ralphie (Jan 20, 2004)

I think I may have mentioned it earlier as well, but just to reitterate. Weed is more socially accepted than any other illicit drug, it also has the biggest usage... and its the easiest to find.. I'm willing to bet that if we replaced coke with weed, everyone would say that coke was a gateway drug...


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## Randy (Jan 20, 2004)

Ralphie,

Sometimes studies aren't always needed... In some case simple common sense works... 

But everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.  Hell, I don't smoke that crap anyway, and surely don't care if you smoke it.   You can smoke your brains out, and if it never entices you to try other drugs, that is great!


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## Ralphie (Jan 21, 2004)

I don't smoke weed, in fact I dislike weed very much.
By this I mean I dislike the high I get from it.
ITs not very pleasureable to me.

Many cases simple common sense works?
Come now, don't be a soccer mom!


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## Flex (Jan 21, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> If he did smoke a bowl his life wouldn't go spiraling out of control in a drug induced frenzy b/c of it.
> 
> PS.  by the way Flex, how you doin buddy. pretty excited I imagine with all the patriots fanaticism goin on over there!? In my own defense I knew they were gonna beat the colts, I was just going for the long shot, that all. ha ha. GO pats



i didnt say if you smoke weed, you'll def. do other drugs. there is no right/wrong answer. IMO, weed is a gateway drug. you are nervous, you try it, its no biggie, you love it, you get used to it, its not enough. so boom, you wanna try another drug.......thats all bro 

p.s. i'm doin well bro, thanks. still a small lump, but hopefully it'll go away haha. ya, shit is pretty crazy in Patriotland over here. I've been getting into big fights w/my non-Pat-fan buddies cuz they still dont give the Pats respect (like i wrote in that post). oh well, 2 superbowls in 3 years is pretty good if you ask me


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## Randy (Jan 21, 2004)

Ralphie...

You sound like an idiot   Maybe you were hit in the head by a soccer ball when you were a kid 
Don't you read the messages here?
It has already been mentioned that any drug can be a gateway drug?  Whether it be coke, crank, or even your mommy's prescription... Being socially accepted and easy to find has nothing to do with being a gateway  

Personally I really do not understand why it is so hard for people to understand why any drug that changes the way you feel could possibly be a gateway for other drugs.  Really think about it?  You try a drug, you like the way it feels, but after a short time you get tired of that feeling and it stimulates you to try something else.  Now it doesn't have to be something that is hard core.   Heck, it can even be alcohol if you never tried it.  And I never said it affects everyone like this either.  I just said it CAN be a gateway.
So IMO anyone who doesn't beleive that has their head up their 




> _*Originally posted by Ralphie *_
> I think I may have mentioned it earlier as well, but just to reitterate. Weed is more socially accepted than any other illicit drug, it also has the biggest usage... and its the easiest to find.. I'm willing to bet that if we replaced coke with weed, everyone would say that coke was a gateway drug...


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## Ralphie (Jan 21, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Ralphie...
> 
> You sound like an idiot   Maybe you were hit in the head by a soccer ball when you were a kid
> ...


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## Randy (Jan 21, 2004)

Ralphie,

Your response is rediculous, and doesn't even deserve a response.    I'm through with this subject, it's going nowhere.


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## Ralphie (Jan 21, 2004)

Look at it however you want, one thing is sure, I have valid logical reasons. You don't


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## Ralphie (Jan 21, 2004)

Now now what did your mom teach you about using a poddy mouth


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## Ralphie (Jan 21, 2004)

I'm starting to feel bad from wasting board space like this.....

Instead of just assualting me with insults, could you please back yourself up.. otherwise I'm just going assume you know you are wrong.


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## gr81 (Jan 21, 2004)

thanks fellas for wasting this thread with all the arguing. cut that shit out. Everyone has their opinion and people can actually learn something from this thread instead of reading a bunch of flaming. 
Besides Ralphie, we all know that Randy is a little bitch anyways. He just argues with people to argue, not to acccomplich anything. I learned that a long time ago. just let it be. don't stoop, ya dig..


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## Randy (Jan 21, 2004)

GR, if you knew half of what you think you know you really might amount to something.  What is really funny is that you are a piece of shit white trash punk that tries to act like a black dude.  That is hilarious.  You even come across like you're the authority of almost every topic I've seen you involved with.  So if anyone is a bitch, it is your pathetic ass.  I am open-minded and I don't care who it is, if you make sense I will listen. 

Now I agree that there was something to be learned from this thread...  In fact your Internet article was pretty interesting.  The only thing I didn't agree with was the fact that they implied that marijuana didn't impact ones learning while high .  I'm sorry, but if most are high, it will impact you one way or another.  I know that 90 percent of those I knew who got high while in class failed miserably, or scored low.  And like I said any drug can be a gateway.... But I don't think those disagreeing have closely read what was said..  They keep coming back with incompetent remarks implying that I am saying marijuana and other drugs is in all cases a gateway to others.  I never stated that, I said "IT COULD BE".   How could anyone argue that it COULD BE.  That is like saying that nothing is possible.


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## CowPimp (Jan 22, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> GR, if you knew half of what you think you know you really might amount to something.  What is really funny is that you are a piece of shit white trash punk that tries to act like a black dude.  That is hilarious.  You even come across like you're the authority of almost every topic I've seen you involved with.  So if anyone is a bitch, it is your pathetic ass.  I am open-minded and I don't care who it is, if you make sense I will listen.
> 
> Now I agree that there was something to be learned from this thread...  In fact your Internet article was pretty interesting.  The only thing I didn't agree with was the fact that they implied that marijuana didn't impact ones learning while high .  I'm sorry, but if most are high, it will impact you one way or another.  I know that 90 percent of those I knew who got high while in class failed miserably, or scored low.  And like I said any drug can be a gateway.... But I don't think those disagreeing have closely read what was said..  They keep coming back with incompetent remarks implying that I am saying marijuana and other drugs is in all cases a gateway to others.  I never stated that, I said "IT COULD BE".   How could anyone argue that it COULD BE.  That is like saying that nothing is possible.



I also know people who get straight As at good colleges being stoned.  I don't think it's the learning that gets impacted, I think it's the attention span and the want to learn that are affected.  If I'm stoned in a boring class, then I can just daydream all day instead of listening to the teacher if I am stoned.  The high is my entertainment.  If I'm not stoned, then I just listen so that I don't get bored.

You have to do what works for you.  I don't like being stoned in class.  Unless it's a class that I really enjoy, I have more trouble paying attention because I don't feel like learning the nonsense.  If something interesting comes along, then I have less trouble listening.  I can learn just fine at that point.

Please just end the arguing here.  Not only has this thread gotten completely off topic, but it has turned into a worthless argument.  This thread is supposed to be about bodybuilding and marijuana.  

Basically, there is no proof that marijuana significantly impacts the results of a workout program.  There is the potential for gains to be reduced because of lower testosterone levels (A numerical representation of the decrease would make an assessment of the situation much easier), but there is still no scientific proof that results are impacted significantly.  As well, it has been my experience that it doesn't.  I have smoked marijuana while doing a weight lifting program, and I have had many friends smoke during a program as well.


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## Ralphie (Jan 22, 2004)

The number four person in my class is a huge pothead. Across the board A's, his gpa is actually a 100.19, we use a hundred scale. Hes taking all Aps and scores very well on all tests.


Then again I can think of a million other ones where its the opposite, thats why studies are needed.

In all cases of debate, if there is a study and proves it, then it is so, no common sense bs. Too opionated.


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## CowPimp (Jan 22, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Ralphie *_
> The number four person in my class is a huge pothead. Across the board A's, his gpa is actually a 100.19, we use a hundred scale. Hes taking all Aps and scores very well on all tests.
> 
> 
> ...



It just completely depends on the person.  Some people can do it, and some people can't.  If you can't do it, then don't.  

The other thing I notice about pot smokers is they have a lot less trouble quitting or cutting down in comparison to frequent users of other drugs.  Most everyone I know that used to be a huge pothead has cut down significantly or quit according to what they are capable of handling.


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## Randy (Jan 22, 2004)

I agree, in fact I already mentioned that.  Some can do well, some can't.  But out of respect for the teachers and yourself I think it is ridiculous to get high in class, and disrespectful to the teacher. If you're that bored with the class you shouldn't be taking it (period!).  I know that if I was a teacher and had people coming into my class high I would toss their asses out on their ear.

Now as far as those marijuana smokers having problems quitting.
Well basically as everyone knows, you can develop a psychological addiction.  I think if you are one that has strong will power and are the type of person who can accomplish what you put your mind to then you can do just about anything.  Again, you are drawn to the habit psychologically, not physically.




> _*Originally posted by CowPimp *_
> It just completely depends on the person.  Some people can do it, and some people can't.  If you can't do it, then don't.
> 
> The other thing I notice about pot smokers is they have a lot less trouble quitting or cutting down in comparison to frequent users of other drugs.  Most everyone I know that used to be a huge pothead has cut down significantly or quit according to what they are capable of handling.


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## Randy (Jan 22, 2004)

Ralphie,

Once again I feel that your comments are senseless....

Why do you need tests to show students study habbits on marijuana?    So your saying if the tests reveal that students grades are not affected that it is ok to get high in class...(What a twit?)  

Again...Use common sense you moron.   Common sense tells you that whether your grades are affected by smoking marijuana in class or not, that you still shouldn't do it.   

I can drink alcohol and get high before class too.  I'm sure it would not affect my grades.... but does this mean I should do it?

Ralphie you newbie.... I think you better go suck your thumb. 




> _*Originally posted by Ralphie *_
> The number four person in my class is a huge pothead. Across the board A's, his gpa is actually a 100.19, we use a hundred scale. Hes taking all Aps and scores very well on all tests.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ralphie (Jan 22, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Ralphie,
> 
> Once again I feel that your comments are senseless....
> ...




"Once again I feel that your comments are senseless...."
What the hell, I cannot offer some insight into the topic? senseless why is that? I'm simply stating something that I know... want me to go back and show you how many times you have made senseless comments with your experience related posts?


And stop putting words into my mouth, I never said it was ok to get high in class. I have NEVER gone to class high and I don't think its a good idea to. Where the hell did I say that kind of rubbish? Exactly, I didn't.

I'm a newbie ? I guess its because I feel like studies and scientific evidence mean something in a debate/arguement, whereas personal experiences and opinions only go so far. They can back up evidence, but they don't make facts like scientific DATA does.


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## Randy (Jan 22, 2004)

Ralphie...You need to grow up my friend.... I hope you don't need studies and scientific evidence to realize that (Just take my word for it) 

Your stating something you know?  That is the problem! What your stating had nothing to do with my topic 

Sure you can go back and find sensless posts of mine.  I post em all the time.  But when I do, you can clearly see I am joking.   But when your in a serious discussion and you post nonsense that don't relate to the topic then that is ridiculous.

Further more, stop PMing me.   Damn Do you have a mission to prove that your more stupid then you come across?

AND RALPHIE BUD....CONGRATULATIONS, YOU HAVE BEEN ADDED TO MY IGNORE LIST...      Damn what a moron


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## Ralphie (Jan 22, 2004)

Why do I have to state something in lines with "your" topic.. 
I can post any information I deem relevent.

and dude, wtf when I pmed you I was just asking a question.

Then you started pming me back without shit totally off topic... you even told me that it had no point.. your reply that is.. and I asked you to stop...
................


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## SJ69 (Jan 23, 2004)

F anyone who thinx they know it all and thinks their sh1t don't stink.  I aced organic chem, genetics, biochem  all easy as shit and I can bench 300 (not impressive, but not pussy sht either)
And you know what?  I did it all and was never afraid of enjoying life.  To each his own, but don't preach.


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## SJ69 (Jan 23, 2004)

Well, FWIW, I don't condone getting high IN CLASS.
Sorry if I didn't completely read the thread.
I was just sayin' to each his own  but on his own time.
Of course it's not cool at all to get high IN CLASS.


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## SJ69 (Jan 23, 2004)

No agrument Randy.
I agree.
Get high if you want, just don't disrespect the teacher, class etc


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## Randy (Jan 23, 2004)

SJ69,

Thanks Bro...



> _*Originally posted by SJ69 *_
> No agrument Randy.
> I agree.
> Get high if you want, just don't disrespect the teacher, class etc


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## squanto (Jan 24, 2004)

and hooray, sj69 has said it, only took you guys 4 pages of bickering over senseless bullshit to realize!


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## Randy (Jan 24, 2004)

I hear ya bro.   

I guess just lots of thick heads.
Or clouded heads from all that damn marijuana.


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## gr81 (Jan 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by squanto *_
> and hooray, sj69 has said it, only took you guys 4 pages of bickering over senseless bullshit to realize!




I was not squabling, in fact I was the only one here to drop factual information on you folks so you could learn something instead of just going off what the so called expert Randy thinks.


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## Ralphie (Jan 25, 2004)

Hey hey now bro, I may not have posted any studies, but I could have. I am fellow erowid user as well, as well as many other sites.. Lycaeum... the hive... bluelight... murples forums 

I think you and I may surf some of the same forums (besides this one of course  )


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## gr81 (Jan 25, 2004)

hell ya bro, erowid is the shit!! I have hit up bluelight before as well. ha ha. I was really speaking towards a few others who know who they are, ya dig.  keep up the good work, ha ha.


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## Randy (Jan 25, 2004)

GR and Ralphie....I want to be just like you when I grow up


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## gr81 (Jan 25, 2004)

if you grow up that is....


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## BigBallaGA (Jan 25, 2004)

KIDS DONT USE DRUGS !!!!!!!!!

i dont want to pay for your welfare and other social servies with my tax money


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## Ralphie (Jan 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> hell ya bro, erowid is the shit!! I have hit up bluelight before as well. ha ha. I was really speaking towards a few others who know who they are, ya dig.  keep up the good work, ha ha.




I used to be really big into the bluelight scene as well as the rhodium.... not sure if the site is still up for that one.. prolly is..

was like www.rhodium.ws
or something...

The Hive was hardcore.. but ol bluelight was the best.. for the common folk.. without...  a masters in chemistry... that is


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## Spitfire (Feb 27, 2004)

First I cant believe i join to late to be in these conversations so i want to "bump" this thread
OK i am a habitual marijuana user it does not make me lazy I smoke everyday before I go to the gym, if anything it helps me focus. and it helps eat my newly aquired diet of 6 meals a day


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## willus72 (Feb 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Ralphie *_
> And if you really want to get into the subject, I'd be happy to inform you just how harmless heroin is to the body in actuality. Its far safer (in respect to actual damage to the body) than a majority of other drugs out there, even weed or coke.
> 
> Heroin is an semi-synthetic opiate, its actually used by hospitals in the UK. Heroin functions the same way morphine does and for that matter most other opiates/opiods. Vicodin, coedine, etc....




ooh lets get into it! you can talk all the mumbo jumbo crap you want but im still gonna say your full of shit! i dont mean to sound like a dick but ive spent over 2 years of my life addicted to heroin and harmless is not at all the word to use. not even including the mental affects it has on ones body it it is very harmful. 3 of my closest friends have died in the past 2 years from heroin overdoses. that to me is pretty harmful. ive seen huge absesses on people from dirty shit. my girlfriend has od'd died and come back 3 times from the shit. i spent countless nights in the hole in prison detoxing, puking, sweating, cramping, and shitting myself coming off of it. then on a mental note in kills all sence of motivation, self-respect, cleanliness, it basically makes you mentally numb to the world. all one cares about is not getting sick.  the night i went to prison i was so sick i got drunk to try to ease the pain. in the combo i ended up in jail with charges of agg assult, simple assult, wrecklace endangerment, assult with a deadly weapon, unlawful restrain, and unlaweful imprisonment. i was 17 years old looking at 7-10 years state time.  i apologize if i am a little sensitive to tghis subject but i feel it is the most harmful drug out there.  and i can honestly say i have done every drug under the sun.  i am speaking from personal experiance not written shit, and not heresay. on top of the effects it physically and mentally has on ones body there are the harms surrounding it. i have been mugged, shot at and beaten trying to cop in the city.  so harmful, yes it is. nobody can tell me otherwise.  it may be benefitial in medicinal uses but that is to ease pain and nothing else.  my girlfriend just had a child with no drugs then shortly after had her wisdom teeth pulled with no drugs because she knows the harm of it. please dont speak wrecklassly, or uninformed. if it is something you want to mess with it is your body have at it, but PLEASE do not spread any rumors that it is harmless because it is VERY harmful! please do not take any offence to this because that is not what it is meant to me. i am just very sensative towards the subject because i personally know the dangers.


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## gr81 (Feb 27, 2004)

great post man. It is very noble for you to share your experiences with us and my best wishes go out to you brotha. I don't know what your current situation is but I hope that you are in treatment and are succeeding with all of that. I wish you the best with your battling the disease of addiction. Stay strong and keep yoru head up.


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## willus72 (Feb 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> I agree, in fact I already mentioned that.  Some can do well, some can't.  But out of respect for the teachers and yourself I think it is ridiculous to get high in class, and disrespectful to the teacher. If you're that bored with the class you shouldn't be taking it (period!).  I know that if I was a teacher and had people coming into my class high I would toss their asses out on their ear.
> 
> Now as far as those marijuana smokers having problems quitting.
> Well basically as everyone knows, you can develop a psychological addiction.  I think if you are one that has strong will power and are the type of person who can accomplish what you put your mind to then you can do just about anything.  Again, you are drawn to the habit psychologically, not physically.




randy you hot the nail on the head. people are looking to deep into things but here is why people say say that marijuana is addictive.

it is because of the people who feel they are strong willed and can quit anytime they want.  they think that they are fine and they continue to smoke.  and since they never think they have a problem (which in all actuality they may) they never stop smoking. which is an addiction. plain and simple.  many people can say "i can quit whenever i want" but because they truelly beleive this they dont try.  and if for a bet or personal proof they may quit for a period of time but it is very rare that it lasts perminatly.

as for marijuana being a gateway drug this is also something that is looked to closely at. this claim is made because it opens up a new door.  once you do one thing illegal it makes others okay.  when a person is brought up properly they are made to believe that breaking the law is wrong.  once this mindset is broken it is very hard to get back which opens the gate to more illegal activities.  the same can be said about any other drug OR llegal activity for that matter. the reason weed is so contrivertial to this matter is BECAUSE it is so socially acceptable and many people who experimant do not go on to other things. that is not to say that the gate is not open and it would be possible to aquire other drugs or try other drugs. basically it takes away that fear of the law and offeres other possibilitys, other gates so to say.


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## willus72 (Feb 27, 2004)

thanks, you truelly are great, one. lol  but to bring you current on my situation i am now almost 2 years clean. i take very much pride in those two years because with the exception of my son i feel that it is the greatest accomplishment of my life. thanks again


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## Randy (Feb 27, 2004)

Willus72,

Congratulations, you should be very proud of yourself.  Keep up the good work.  I quit smoking weed years ago and never have even a small urge to start back.   Some things are best just left alone .   I quit drinking about 4 years ago I believe.   It most definately is a good feeling when you can drop these bad habits..
Leading a healthy lifestyle is much more important.  In my opinion all that weed does is cloud your brain amongs other things.

Again, Great Job Willus72!


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## gr81 (Feb 27, 2004)

awesome man. Hey I have always been fascinated with addiction in general and have spent alot of time researching about it. I am currently readin a book by Dr Drew (from Loveline) who is an addiction medicine specialist. The book is called Cracked and I think its a good read. He basically just talks of his experiences throughout his time at his hospital dealing with patients. I would reccommend it. Anyways that great about your son. keep it up playa.


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## willus72 (Feb 27, 2004)

thanks randy, but you should pat yourself on the back weed and alcohol are the two drugs that are hardest to quit doing, mainly because society puts out the beleif that their not "too" bad.  yes it is a great feeling, to accomplish something so many others ike ralphie have failed at,lol.  and by the way i love your sig, i just wanted to let you know that you may get robbed for it at some point,lol.

gr81 that book sounds great you are right it is a very interesting and emotional topic.  can that book be had at barnes$noble etc...?  oh and michael says hi hes 2y/o and cant wait to get to the gym, lol!


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## Randy (Feb 27, 2004)

Willis72,

There are 2 types of people in this world.  Those that get to an age where they realize they better straighten up and jump on the right track,  or the other who for some reason never realizes they're doing anything wrong until it is to late.   I'm glad I fell into the first category .

Oh and Willus, didn't anyone tell you my sig has a trademark 
But thanks for the compliment my friend.


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## willus72 (Feb 27, 2004)

damn those trademarks. lol  
and yes, i aggree with your comment 100%


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## Just a guy (Feb 27, 2004)

who am i??

      

Randy... u use ALOT of smiley faces... heh.. ALOT... shits funny


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## Just a guy (Feb 27, 2004)

no offense tho... everyone takes offense to EVERYTHING i say... so i have to be more careful


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## Randy (Feb 27, 2004)

Just a guy,

No offense taken 
Sometimes it is hard to express emotions in writing, so the smileys help 
Just a style I have been accustomed too I guess


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## kdwa1 (Feb 27, 2004)

Moderation with almost anything is cool but I stay away from the hard stuff.Smoking keeps my head space smooth.After all we do have a mental and spiritual body also.Gotta take care of the whole package.I also find a bit of Tequila with my smoke gives me an incredible high and feel great the next day.Of course I'm only talking a couple shots preferably in a sunrise or margarita.I say keep pumping and flying.Keep it all in perspective.Besides isn't it a bit boring being too jocky and strait.  By the way I screwed up my hand from a fall last year so went to ER and got a very pleasent dose of morphine,not bad at all.Moderation of course.


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## Randy (Feb 27, 2004)

You think being straight is being boring and to jocky 
Now that is funny.  I'm laughing so hard I feel like I smoked a joint 

I guess someone should shoot me with some morphine.
As long as it's in moderation it should be ok


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## CowPimp (Feb 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Willis72,
> 
> There are 2 types of people in this world.  Those that get to an age where they realize they better straighten up and jump on the right track,  or the other who for some reason never realizes they're doing anything wrong until it is to late.   I'm glad I fell into the first category .
> ...



There are two kinds of people in this world.  Those who put people into categories, and those who don't...

Seriously though, it is ridiculous to try and split up the population into two polar categories.  The world just isn't like that.  There are also some people who continue to "go down the wrong track" while holding excellent jobs, having loving families, and living a long successful life.  As well, there are those who "jump on the right track" and go between terrible jobs, have extreme family problems, and live depressing short lives.  There are a million other categories I could put people into.  You can't generalize like that.


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## Randy (Feb 27, 2004)

Cowpimp,

Go fire up a doobie for me too


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## Ralphie (Feb 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by willus72 *_
> ooh lets get into it! you can talk all the mumbo jumbo crap you want but im still gonna say your full of shit! i dont mean to sound like a dick but ive spent over 2 years of my life addicted to heroin and harmless is not at all the word to use. not even including the mental affects it has on ones body it it is very harmful. 3 of my closest friends have died in the past 2 years from heroin overdoses. that to me is pretty harmful. ive seen huge absesses on people from dirty shit. my girlfriend has od'd died and come back 3 times from the shit. i spent countless nights in the hole in prison detoxing, puking, sweating, cramping, and shitting myself coming off of it. then on a mental note in kills all sence of motivation, self-respect, cleanliness, it basically makes you mentally numb to the world. all one cares about is not getting sick.  the night i went to prison i was so sick i got drunk to try to ease the pain. in the combo i ended up in jail with charges of agg assult, simple assult, wrecklace endangerment, assult with a deadly weapon, unlawful restrain, and unlaweful imprisonment. i was 17 years old looking at 7-10 years state time.  i apologize if i am a little sensitive to tghis subject but i feel it is the most harmful drug out there.  and i can honestly say i have done every drug under the sun.  i am speaking from personal experiance not written shit, and not heresay. on top of the effects it physically and mentally has on ones body there are the harms surrounding it. i have been mugged, shot at and beaten trying to cop in the city.  so harmful, yes it is. nobody can tell me otherwise.  it may be benefitial in medicinal uses but that is to ease pain and nothing else.  my girlfriend just had a child with no drugs then shortly after had her wisdom teeth pulled with no drugs because she knows the harm of it. please dont speak wrecklassly, or uninformed. if it is something you want to mess with it is your body have at it, but PLEASE do not spread any rumors that it is harmless because it is VERY harmful! please do not take any offence to this because that is not what it is meant to me. i am just very sensative towards the subject because i personally know the dangers.




OmmmGggggg you obviously missed my point.
When I said Heroin was harmless to the body in actuality, I think you misunderstood me. No, I don't think, I know you did. Withdrawal symptoms, YES THOSE ARE BAD I AGREE. However, what I meant is that biologically Heroin is relatively harmless to the body. Also, when you speak of Heroin being dirty.. not clean.. etc.. thats because it is cut.. want to know why it is cut? Because the black market is not a great place for the exchaning of products... If heroin were legal, there would be no cut, i.e. NO DIRTY, just pure Heroin.

My point with Heroin being used in medical practice was that it would not be used in medical practice if it harmed your body so much. Now, you may say, well just cause they use it doesn't mean its not harmful. Well, wrong again. Heroin works exactly the same way on the body as Morphine, Oxycodone, Hydrocodone, Coedine, Hydromorphone.. etc etc etc etc etc and most of the opiates/opiods.

Calling me uninformed? please pm me with you aim name or yahoo or whatever, hell, I will create an account for whatever chat program you may use, to show you just how uninformed I am. I bet I understand the scientific reasons behind drug interactions 10 fold better than you.

Oh, yeah yeah its all written bs right?

Wrong again, I am speaking from experience as well.
First time I did Heroin was well over two years ago.. I've done it multiple times.. so I have experience as well.. and I'm ALMOST certain I have done more drugs than you.. if I haven't, I am still sure I understand the interactions/effects more so. 


And once again, I just want to say that when I was talking about Heroin being "harmless" I meant the drug itself and its effect directly, not the addictions, none of the auxillary stuff. Being mugged, that is a result of the drug being illegal, not because the drug is intrinsically causing a mugging.

Don't believe me? If you really want me to, I could pm you some links to some discussions on this very topic, of Heroin being harmless to the body itself DIRECTLY.


And in the same respect, I do not mean to be a dick.
I do respect the fact of what you have been through, drug addiction, especially to a substance like Heroin must be God-awful, but you are mistaken in many aspects.

I mean, can you honestly tell me that you have read any scientific papers/articles/discussions on opiates/opiods ever?

I'm not striking down your intelligence or anything of that matter, I am simply saying that most people don't know anything about drugs, because they believe basically what they have heard through word of mouth. Most have never picked up a book or anything on the subject matter. Reading a DARE textbook doesn't count btw.


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## 165r (Feb 28, 2004)

I've done it all and thank God that I'm done with it.  I get the same high after seeing my bench go up week to week.
 I love the old, "my friends are still doing it" posts.  No one know who you  are so be honest.  Grow up and Grow Strong.


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## CowPimp (Feb 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Cowpimp,
> 
> Go fire up a doobie for me too



Will do.  I just have to finish studying a lifting for the day.


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## kdwa1 (Feb 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> You think being straight is being boring and to jocky
> Now that is funny.  I'm laughing so hard I feel like I smoked a joint
> 
> ...



Now that's a cool comeback Randy.I just re read my post and had a laugh myself ,I think I'm flyin a bit too high,must be the Tequila.I say whatever works dive in. Cheers!


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## miamiguns (Feb 28, 2004)

When I was in High School  I was lifting weights alot with a group of friends and the subject came up as to whether smoking pot facilitated recovery time.  Needless to say, We all concluded yes it did. hahahaha

Actually, when I think back, I did see better gains when we smoked a couple joints after a heavy workout.


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## Just a guy (Feb 28, 2004)

aint nothing wrong with weed...  Some people can be high on life... some cant...  I was actually thinking about anti-depressants but i couldnt fabricate being Happy all the time...  Im not a happy kind of guy... so i say when u do feel like enjoying a Video game MORE,  or u just want to enjoy your dinner a Little bit more... SMOKE A BLUNT and enjoy life


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## Just a guy (Feb 28, 2004)

can i get a Amen?


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## willus72 (Feb 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Ralphie *_
> OmmmGggggg you obviously missed my point.
> When I said Heroin was harmless to the body in actuality, I think you misunderstood me. No, I don't think, I know you did. Withdrawal symptoms, YES THOSE ARE BAD I AGREE. However, what I meant is that biologically Heroin is relatively harmless to the body. Also, when you speak of Heroin being dirty.. not clean.. etc.. thats because it is cut.. want to know why it is cut? Because the black market is not a great place for the exchaning of products... If heroin were legal, there would be no cut, i.e. NO DIRTY, just pure Heroin.
> 
> ...




okay first off i would like to say congrats on looking up your shit.  i have met alot of people cramming their bodys full of shit that they didnt know anything about. and yes i have done my reasearch, and i do know a whole lot of technical b/s that i could start spewing out. BUT because i know the technical aspect AND have the experiance under my belt i know what is more factual and important.  Leave the technical stuff to docters and lawyers and listen to what counts.

now to list off of what you were saying,  you claimed that heroin is dirty because it is blackmarket, wrong.  even if it was legal it would still be cut.  the only way to have it pure would be to shove a poppy seed in your vein, which would still be cut with the other chemicals in the poppy.  there is no such thing as pure anything, ESPECIALLY a chemically altered synthetic like heroin.

but when you say heroin is reletivly harmeless to the body you are wrong.  what heroin is or other painkillers are meant to do is slow down the body. that is dangerous and harmefull.  when the heart pumps slower it does not push blood through the system fast enough which can cause perminant damage to skin cells, blood vessels, etc....

as for medicinal use of dangerouse chemicals lets look at a few...
chimotherapy
phen-fen
tylonol
 well the list goes on but i dont feel like going on, any ways what im getting at is that every drug used in the medical feild has its effects and side effects. alot of times side effects can be very dangerous but the actual effects are worth the risk.  opiates HAVE to be used in the medical field because they are so potent. the side effects of morphine, oxycontin, perkacet, vicodin, phentanol, etc.. are all worth the risk, because how would you feel if the doc said "heres a tylonol, get ready for open heart surgery.  some people have to live with such excrutiating pain that the dangers are not only acceptable but they are necessay.

now back to theauxilery of the drug causing it to be harmful.  just because it is an auxilery effect does not make the drug any safer.  the potential risk is still there and the fact that it is illegal has nothing to do with those risks. even if it were legal it has such a potent addiction and such sever withdraws that people would do anything for it. now i know your going to argue that with it legal a person addicted to it could just go by some, wrong a heroin addict will give up, quit, and spend, anything he has for that high,  once it is all gone, there is no more then the addict will resort to anything he has to to get the drug. which will no longer be killing a drug dealer now it will be killing 5 year old suzies pregnant mother that works at the corner store because she caught the addict trying to boost a bag of dope. 

heroin adiction is not like alcohol, or ciggarettes if it were legal our country woyuld go to shit.  the affects it has on ones brain alone are enough to kill our entire work force. people would not be able to handle a heroin addiction like alcohol and cigaretts. the would always need more and the shit would spread like a wild fire. and dont forget that the death rat would probably tripl, quadruple.

i do beleive i read somewhere you or someone said that people ared umb if they take to much and thats why they die. WRONG people take more because they have to not because they are dumb. i know you may have your experiance with drugs and that is fine but untill you have an experiance with addiction, you know nothing about drugs.  honestly the way you talk you sound like i did the first time i did heroin when i was thirteen years old.  if you feel comfortable that you are in control of your life have at it. if you feel drugs are harmeless, have at it, but dont dare try to convince other peple other wise. if narcotics were safe they would be legal PERIOD.  i am 20 years old with 9 years of heave drug use behind my back. i have used AND abused everything that can be.  i have paid my dues for it, i have lost loved ones for it, and i will probably pay for the rest of my life for it.  and yes i will continue to call you uninformed because that is what you are, you can read books upon books, surveys upon surveys, discussions upon discussions, (which i have also) but nothing will teach better than  good old fashoned experiance. im not sure how old you are but like i said you sound like i did when i was thirteen so im guessing somewhere around there, and although you dont want to hear it, i have to say it bcause it was said to me and i wished i had listened. listen to the people who have lived it and just take their word for it it is not something to play with or dabble in, even if you do feel you have control.  a persons mind can be very decieving, and dangerous. the best way to learn about yourself is through other peoples eyes, and other peoples experiances.  dont forget to be receptive to constructive critism, and ALWAYS be more mature than others around you.  if something is wrong and deep down you know it is, dont defend yourself and anmit it, it will take a stronger person to do this than any.  everyone here including yourself knows that heroin is dangerous. NOW instead of arguing the fact that it is not and looking like an UNINFORMED juvinile, be a man say YES it is dangerous but i enjoy doing it, and i am willing to accept those dangers.  

oh and please lets not get into ive done more drugs that you shit. what that is called is criminal pride and it may be one of the most destructive personality traits out there.  you may have tried drugs but i have lived the life.  and its not the life to live


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## Just a guy (Feb 28, 2004)

boooya


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## Randy (Feb 28, 2004)

Nice Response Willus... Now I certainly would feel better after letting all that out .   And Yes, addiction can be a sad thing.  I happen to know a few alcoholics and it is not a pretty site.  I know one that gets up about 5am for work, pours himself a 16 oz glass of vodka and then drinks about 4 beers before he heads off to work.   When you get to this point,  the alcohol becomes a medicine.   If he doesn not drink it, he gets the shakes so bad he could not even go to work...  He tried to quit a few times, but goes into severe convulsions.   Now this is just an example of how bad addiction can really be.  Luckily I don't know any heroin addicts, but I have seen some of the affects it can do by watching some documentaries on TV.  Now I know that does not really hold an accurate comparison in many cases, but the show I watched was pretty realistic.   The best way to avoid addition is to have sense enough to stay away from all this bullshit.... this means legal and illegal...   One thing though, there will always be those defending it...   All you can do is hope they don't end up someday on the bottom like many of these addicts..  They too thought they would never get addicted.


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## JerseyDevil (Feb 28, 2004)

Wow.  Can't believe I missed this thread. I'm probably a lot like Randy.  I graduated high school in the early 70s, basically at the peak of the 'psychedelic' generation.  I started smoking weed when I was 14, and I graduated to others things rather quickly.  For me, smoking marijuana and hash was something I did while waiting to get off on LSD, mescaline, or psilocybin, sort of like front loading a cycle .

I eventually graduated to speed (Black Beauty's, White Crosses, Dexadrine), downer's like Seconal, Quaaludes, and eventually things like opium laced hashish and pot.  I snorted plenty of coke and morphine (ahhhh, morphine), freebased and even 'hit up' heroin several times.  I tried PCP (ala Angel Dust), which was an awful drug.  That particular summer no pot was available, and Angel Dust was all there was.  By the end of the summer you couldn't even give that shit away! And folks, I wasn't a part timer.  I quit doing harder drugs in my early 20s, and smoked my last joint 18 years ago.

Anyways, I refuse to pass judgement on others and whether pot is good for weight training, or not.  For many, many years, I believed these types of drugs should be legal.  But nowadays when I look across the room at my 11 year twins, I listen to my heart.  I hope and pray that THEY do not chose this path because I know how potentially dangerous and harmful drug use IS, and can be.


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## Randy (Feb 28, 2004)

JerseyDevil,

While it seemed you surpassed me just a bit, I think you summed that up rather well .   Your life did sound much like mine, however luckily I never sampled heroin or morphine and for the dust I only hit it once.  But other than that I did try everything under the rainbow.  The first was alcohol, then weed, then the others.  Now like you say I am very much against any drugs. I wouldn't want to see anyone follow in those footsteps.   The sad thing is some of my old buddies back in those days never got a clue and turned away from that lifestyle.  Many of them are dead I'm affraid .


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## JerseyDevil (Feb 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> The sad thing is some of my old buddies back in those days never got a clue and turned away from that lifestyle.  Many of them are dead I'm affraid .


I have some friends like that.  Thankfully, none of them are dead (that I know of).  I have one buddy, who turned 49 last year, that calls me every year on my birthday, early in the morning.  Everytimes he calls, I hear him taking a bong hit.  And every year I say, 'you still taking bong hits?'.  With a laugh Beavis & Butthead would be proud of, he says 'hehhehehhehhhehhee ... yeah'.


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## willus72 (Feb 28, 2004)

a very close friend of mine died of a heroin overdose a few months ago. he was only 21 years old, i have know hims since i was about 11. he got into it and stopped it before i even started it. once i started he preached and begged me to stop, and i kept telling him i was only experimenting and it wouldnt be a problem etc... it really hurt our friendship alot.  well after i decided to quit we reconciled our friendship and maybe two months later i got a phone call matt(r.i.p) was found by himself dead in a hotel room from a heroin overdose.  apperantly there was a party and when he started O.D.ing everyone bailed and just left him there to die.  no sober person in their right mind would allow a person to die a painful death like that, so i am very much against drug use, so i do apologize if i keep getting sensitive, frustraited, or preach a little. i miss him alot and every story i have worth telling begins with "one time Matt and I..." in the AA & NA program they say all that addiction brings is jails, institutions, and death. I personally live by this motto because i have been to two of the above.  ive never sen anything positive come out of drug use so i get a little frustrated i apologize.


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## Randy (Feb 28, 2004)

Some will just never change  



> _*Originally posted by JerseyDevil *_
> I have some friends like that.  Thankfully, none of them are dead (that I know of).  I have one buddy, who turned 49 last year, that calls me every year on my birthday, early in the morning.  Everytimes he calls, I hear him taking a bong hit.  And every year I say, 'you still taking bong hits?'.  With a laugh Beavis & Butthead would be proud of, he says 'hehhehehhehhhehhee ... yeah'.


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## Randy (Feb 28, 2004)

Sorry to hear of your friend Willus... 
And I agree, I have not heard of anything positive come out of drug use either other than for medical purposes of course.
I too am very much against them. 



> _*Originally posted by willus72 *_
> a very close friend of mine died of a heroin overdose a few months ago. he was only 21 years old, i have know hims since i was about 11. he got into it and stopped it before i even started it. once i started he preached and begged me to stop, and i kept telling him i was only experimenting and it wouldnt be a problem etc... it really hurt our friendship alot.  well after i decided to quit we reconciled our friendship and maybe two months later i got a phone call matt(r.i.p) was found by himself dead in a hotel room from a heroin overdose.  apperantly there was a party and when he started O.D.ing everyone bailed and just left him there to die.  no sober person in their right mind would allow a person to die a painful death like that, so i am very much against drug use, so i do apologize if i keep getting sensitive, frustraited, or preach a little. i miss him alot and every story i have worth telling begins with "one time Matt and I..." in the AA & NA program they say all that addiction brings is jails, institutions, and death. I personally live by this motto because i have been to two of the above.  ive never sen anything positive come out of drug use so i get a little frustrated i apologize.


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## Ralphie (Mar 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by willus72 *_
> okay first off i would like to say congrats on looking up your shit.  i have met alot of people cramming their bodys full of shit that they didnt know anything about. and yes i have done my reasearch, and i do know a whole lot of technical b/s that i could start spewing out. BUT because i know the technical aspect AND have the experiance under my belt i know what is more factual and important.  Leave the technical stuff to docters and lawyers and listen to what counts.
> 
> now to list off of what you were saying,  you claimed that heroin is dirty because it is blackmarket, wrong.  even if it was legal it would still be cut.  the only way to have it pure would be to shove a poppy seed in your vein, which would still be cut with the other chemicals in the poppy.  there is no such thing as pure anything, ESPECIALLY a chemically altered synthetic like heroin.
> ...





Ok, I don't have much to say to all of that because I feel as if you didn't reverse any of my points at all..

I just want to clarify that I am not 13 years of age. LOL
Also, experience is great and all (and yes I have been addicted to a substance but it was not because I was trying to get high, if you want to know details please pm me. Once again I'd like your aim name or whatever you have so I can talk to you directly) but experience is only so much. You know how there are guys at the gym and their experience is that if you only do half reps on bench press you are able to do more weight and thus get bigger right? Yeah, see how experience does shit there? I'm sorry but in the world of drugs experience is something you don't want to trust... "oHhhHHh dude you don't understand MannNnnnn these tabs are Da BizoMb they are blue dolphins TRIPLE STACKED!!! CUT WITH HEROIN AND SPEED!!! Best RoLl EVER!!!" See that statement right there is BS, and how many times will you hear someone say that? If you know ANYTHING about X you know that a pill being triple stacked means nothing. You also know that X is NEVER (unless a very stupid man produced the X) cut with Heroin. Take a stab at why X is never cut with Heroin. 


And the last thing I have to say is .....................................................................................................
http://www.bluelight.nu/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38897&highlight=how+safe+are+opiates


If you don't believe what the people in the posts say themselves click on the links they provide. Feel free to look at the sources as well because they are fully listed. Also feel free to cross reference the sources.

Have a nice day


For the record I haven't done an opiate stronger then hydrocodone in over two years.



I also seriously feel for you in the fact that you have lost loved ones to drugs. I have felt this pain as well. Having that being said, I must also say that this person was not very well informed about drugs in general and not informed at all to the drugs he was addicted to.


Oh yeah, sorry for the extremely late reply.


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## gr81 (Mar 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Ralphie *_
> If you know ANYTHING about X you know that a pill being triple stacked means nothing. You also know that X is NEVER (unless a very stupid man produced the X) cut with Heroin. Take a stab at why X is never cut with Heroin.




Its b/c heroin is not ingestable, and even if it was, the cost of using it cut into ebomb wouldn't be beneficial, am I right? 

anyways, I feel what you are saying man. people don't know shit about drugs, and they think they do. I was the only one at teh beginning of this debate brining facts and it didn't seem to matter b/c cats would still stick to their unfounded beliefs. that made me bow out of this thread a long tie ago! lol. its all good. keep doing your thing.


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## Ralphie (Mar 19, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> Its b/c heroin is not ingestable, and even if it was, the cost of using it cut into ebomb wouldn't be beneficial, am I right?
> 
> anyways, I feel what you are saying man. people don't know shit about drugs, and they think they do. I was the only one at teh beginning of this debate brining facts and it didn't seem to matter b/c cats would still stick to their unfounded beliefs. that made me bow out of this thread a long tie ago! lol. its all good. keep doing your thing.




God damnit!!!!
You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!  
In order to get high off Heroin from oral use one would need an unbelieveable amount. Just to make sure no one just replys saying "Nah uhhhh thats not true my friend had a friend who died because he ate a bag of Heroin" or some nonsense like that.

Here is a site outlining dosages
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/heroin/heroin_dose.shtml

Christ, you know how large a an X pill would be if it was cut with smack to the point where the smack actually had an affect? Shit haha X tabs would be from there on "deca" stacked.

haha

Yeah, not much FACTUAL information in this thread, just a bunch of common misconceptions and myths.

Someones gotta keep fighting the good fight though!


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## Just a guy (Mar 19, 2004)

some X is cut with heroin...


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## PreMier (Mar 19, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Just a guy *_
> some X is cut with heroin...



Right...


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## Just a guy (Mar 19, 2004)

yeh... right... u can roll your eyes all you want.  might not be effective but its true.


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## PreMier (Mar 19, 2004)

Sure its true...  Whatever bro.  If you were retarded enough to cut MDMA with Heroin, then you deserve to LOOSE money.


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## Just a guy (Mar 19, 2004)

brown Peace Signs... Smacked out...


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## Just a guy (Mar 19, 2004)

might have been a fake all together... but it was claimed to be EX.. i took em.. i fucked up.. but it wasnt like a Roll


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## PreMier (Mar 19, 2004)

Well, whatwever you say man...  Its just not good business to cut a product with something WAY more expensive.  Especially when you can use tweek or any other cheap abundant speed.


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## CowPimp (Mar 19, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Just a guy *_
> might have been a fake all together... but it was claimed to be EX.. i took em.. i fucked up.. but it wasnt like a Roll



That doesn't mean it's heroin.  There are countless things it could be cut with.


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## Ralphie (Mar 19, 2004)

Aye!!!
Thank You!

Did you look at the site I gave with heroin dosages?

Do you see how much money someone would lose if they cut their X with heroin?

The pill would be the size of my head if it was cut with heroin to the point where it had any noticeable effect.

let me guess you've had X tabs with coke in them too because they felt more "wirey"

Coke is not active orally either, at least not to any extent where it would matter.


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## willus72 (Mar 20, 2004)

okay ralphie, this thread is getting a little out of hand. im sorry but i dont wish to continue this conversation any longer. you feel how you feel and i feel how i feel. no i didnt look at your link, because honestly i am a drug addict and all this talk is messing up my  home life. i would love to discuss this with you further but family comes first. ive given my experiances and advise take that for what you will. and i do pray that you are correct in your studies and nothing bad will come of you or any other users out there.  all i can say is maybe i am one of the small percenage that couldnt do it(although look at the percentages here and you will see that this is not so).  
as for the ex conversation i used to make it and all i can say that it is very profitable to cut the drug. not because mdma is expencive (omg is it cheap) but because different types of people like different kinds of highs. and alot of the X you guys hear about being cut with heroin and coke usually is cut but with cheaper products such as pharmesutical opiates and caffien, ephedra, etc... and the dont forget that ecstacy can be snorted and injected also. i have come across pills that did very little orally but got me really high when injected.  

ralphie good luck withyour studies and if in the future you feel that things might be getting out of hand i am always willing to talk.


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## Ralphie (Mar 21, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by willus72 *_
> okay ralphie, this thread is getting a little out of hand. im sorry but i dont wish to continue this conversation any longer. you feel how you feel and i feel how i feel. no i didnt look at your link, because honestly i am a drug addict and all this talk is messing up my  home life. i would love to discuss this with you further but family comes first. ive given my experiances and advise take that for what you will. and i do pray that you are correct in your studies and nothing bad will come of you or any other users out there.  all i can say is maybe i am one of the small percenage that couldnt do it(although look at the percentages here and you will see that this is not so).
> as for the ex conversation i used to make it and all i can say that it is very profitable to cut the drug. not because mdma is expencive (omg is it cheap) but because different types of people like different kinds of highs. and alot of the X you guys hear about being cut with heroin and coke usually is cut but with cheaper products such as pharmesutical opiates and caffien, ephedra, etc... and the dont forget that ecstacy can be snorted and injected also. i have come across pills that did very little orally but got me really high when injected.
> 
> ralphie good luck withyour studies and if in the future you feel that things might be getting out of hand i am always willing to talk.




Hey bro its all good. As far as I am concerned the reason I post on this board, and I hope this is true for everyone is to help others out with spreading knowledge and experiences so that others may benefit and learn.


I appreciate your offer, but I do not use drugs on a regular basis at all anymore. Last drug I did was ecstacy, which was over three months ago. I haven't even had a beer in the past month or so, (this cutting diet is killing me!!)


However, I'd love to chat with you if you seem to be having some problems, I think I can help alot especially if you need help tapering/withdrawal symptoms.

Pm me with your aim handle or msn or whatever.


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## Rich46yo (May 1, 2004)

Marijuana should be legalized. It is far,far less destructive a drug then alchohol. Far,far less so then cocaine,crack,crank, whatever you want to compare it to. Weed also has positive medicinal effects, includeing being good from chronic pain. If more people got high and chilled the world would be a beter place...........take care..........Rich


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## CowPimp (May 1, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Rich46yo *_
> Marijuana should be legalized. It is far,far less destructive a drug then alchohol. Far,far less so then cocaine,crack,crank, whatever you want to compare it to. Weed also has positive medicinal effects, includeing being good from chronic pain. If more people got high and chilled the world would be a beter place...........take care..........Rich



I don't disagree, but you have just sparked quite the controversy.  If you noticed how long this thread dragged on previously, then you knew what you were getting into.


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## Rich46yo (May 1, 2004)

Well cow I have a unique perspective. Both from having grown up in the 70s and haveing been a Policeman for over 20 years. I have observed the connection between reefer and crime to be about nil. In fact the only connection comes from the fact its been criminalized in the first place. People dont smoke weed and commit crimes and the medicinal effect of the stuff is hard to question. On the other hand Ive witnessed the alchohol/cocaine/heroin induced slaughter on our streets way to often.

                 Alchohol is a terrible drug. No doubt the worst. Myself personaly I dont use any drugs. I gave up drinking a long,long time ago and dont miss it one iota. One of the great benefits of the BB lifestyle is it teaches you to respect your body and not put these poisens into it in the first place But marijuana? Its way down the list as far as destructive drugs go. Every dollar spent to criminalize it is a waste of money. I dont want my kid to use it, then again I dont want him to use alchohol or tobbacco either.

                  For 20 years Ive been basically in an on-going narco-war with ganstas and assorted drug dealers. Im in favor of decriminalizeing marijuana in order to concentrate on the real dangerous drugs, most of all cocaine,crank, and heroin. Ive always thought we should put the major importers of this stuff on ole sparky and fry them like bacon.

                    But marijuanas different. We shouldnt be spending precious resources on it...............take care..........Rich


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## Randy (May 1, 2004)

Based on my own observations as well as many others, as you say marijuanua isn't destructive in the sense that it induces you to commit crimes or violence like many of the other drugs such as alcohol.  Marijuana robs you of motivation.  It turns a somewhat productive person into a lazy carefree person.   Now of course there are always exceptions to this, but I am speaking again in reference to my own observations.  I've seen many with pretty decent grades in school drop down to F's.  Why?  Not that they weren't capable of getting good grades.  Because they made weed their lives and it clouded their brain making them lazy and not caring about how they looked, their grades in school, and many other things.   Now I know the smokers will definately argue with me, but that is the affect that I witnessed first hand.

Now of course those using marijuana in a recreational manner would not experience this affect to this degree.


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## CowPimp (May 1, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Based on my own observations as well as many others, as you say marijuanua isn't destructive in the sense that it induces you to commit crimes or violence like many of the other drugs such as alcohol.  Marijuana robs you of motivation.  It turns a somewhat productive person into a lazy carefree person.   Now of course there are always exceptions to this, but I am speaking again in reference to my own observations.  I've seen many with pretty decent grades in school drop down to F's.  Why?  Not that they weren't capable of getting good grades.  Because they made weed their lives and it clouded their brain making them lazy and not caring about how they looked, their grades in school, and many other things.   Now I know the smokers will definately argue with me, but that is the affect that I witnessed first hand.
> 
> Now of course those using marijuana in a recreational manner would not experience this affect to this degree.



I'm not going to argue that this isn't the case for some people.  However, most people that do this turn their lives around later and realize their mistakes.  One of the great things about marijuana is it's low incidence of addiction.  People are willing to give it up, or at least moderate usage, if they realize it interferes with their lives.


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## Ralphie (May 2, 2004)

I think the reason people are willing to give it up so easily is because weed sucks! The high blows! 

haha sorry, I really dislike the high it gives...


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## CowPimp (May 2, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Ralphie *_
> I think the reason people are willing to give it up so easily is because weed sucks! The high blows!
> 
> haha sorry, I really dislike the high it gives...



I certainly like it, but I also respect your opinion.  I don't like getting drunk too often.  A lot of people I know really like it, but I don't.  Personal preference is very important.


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## curiousity (May 2, 2004)

Do you think that part of the excuse of marijuana being a gateway drug is all of the misinformation that is put out there by the "War on Drugs", etc?

When a kid tries it for the first time and discover all of the lies that were told to him - that it is horrible, it kills, etc,etc - it is easy to make the assumption that information about the other drugs were lies too.

Whatever.  Most of the people I know who were serious potheads have mellowed out.  They rarely smoke anymore, for a variety of reasons.

Although I haven't smoked in over a year and seriously for over three years, I still think that there is nothing more relaxing than the 3B method of relaxation.  A book, bubble bath, and a bowl.  A small slice of heavenly relaxation.








> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> i think the reason it is illegal is not b/c of the effects it has on you, but more because of its potential to be a gateway drug. ANYONE who says its not a gateway drug is full of, how do you say, shit.


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## Just a guy (May 9, 2004)

This is the one thing im trying to figure out...  Does weed really make you a bloated pig?  I have heard that it traps water between your skin/Fat and muscles therefor making you look friggin fat.   I was trying to find some Factual information on it but cannot.


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## Randy (May 9, 2004)

I never heard that consuming marijuana will cause you to trap water between your skin, fat, and muscles making you look fat...    I think it is more of the result of the fact that it causes you to get the munchies and eat everything in sight.   This will most definately cause you to get fat


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## Art (May 10, 2004)

I would have thought the opposite.
I was certainly underweight when I used to smoke.
Art.


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## Randy (May 10, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Art *_
> I would have thought the opposite.
> I was certainly underweight when I used to smoke.
> Art.



Yeah I was a bean pole too 
And at the early age that I smoked, my metabolism would burn off all the food I ate on my munchy rampage


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## timt (May 11, 2004)

wHEN EVER i GET HIGH i JUST END UP DOING NOTHING BUT POSTING ON MESSAGE BOARDS. MY TURN TO TAKE A HIT BE RIGHT BACK


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## Riptide (May 12, 2004)

Just my 2 cents...

1) There is a correlation between smoking dope and using other drugs.  Is there a causation, however?  No, I don't think so.  I agree with the earlier poster that mentioned it being a gateway to meeting people that use other things, however.  But the drug itself does not cause you to use something else directly.
2) Making a barbeque pit out of your lungs is bad.  Period.  I don't buy anyone who says it's harmless to your lungs.  Is it as bad as tobacco?  Probably not.  Anyone who has taken a bong hit off a cigarette knows the truth.  
3) Legalizing, taxing, and regulating all currently illicit drugs is worth trying.  Your grandma is not going to go out and do coca just because it became legal to obtain.  Neither would I.  The few that would be silly enough to do that just because the guvumit gave them a green light?  Social darwinism in action.  That problem will solve itself.
4) Smoking dope effects different people in different ways.  Some are more prone to become mentally addicted than others.  I've known people that did good in school on it and others that allowed it to completely interfere with other responsibilities in life.  This is a gray area.

Just a few thoughts, I know some of this was touched on already.


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## Randy (May 12, 2004)

Riptide,

Marijuana being a gateway drug is psychological.   The drug itself does not promote other drug use, it is the psycological attributes.
Of course not everyone who smokes or smoked marijuana will try other drugs, but many will or have.   I believe that any drug can be a gateway to other things psychologically speaking.   It only makes sense.  If you like a feeling, you may try other things as an experimentation to get a similar or better feeling. 

Now I am not knocking marijuana, it has many positive benefits.  As many have already brought up I think there are much worse things out there.   It is funny how alcohol can be legal and cause so many deaths by those who abuse it than marijuana could ever do.   

Now is it bad for your lungs.   Sure! I believe that any smoke or contaminents put in the lungs is bad.   I haven't studied this in detail but common sense tells me it is harmful.  It is just that most people don't smoke enough marijuana to compare to the damaging lung effects of cigarettes.  Most average cigarette smokers who are addicted smoke on an average of a pack a day where a marijuana user may smoke 1 joint or 2 in a day.   Now I have heard some people say that studies have found that 1 joint can be as damaging as a pack of cigarettes, but have never seen facts supporting that.  But my point is that if you put smoke of any kind in your lungs how can anyone say that is good for them   I don't think even GR would argue that.


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## Riptide (May 12, 2004)

Some people seem to have better control over themselves than others.  While I have not exhibited such control at all stages of my life, I have been able to dismiss a few bad habits here and there.  I changed my body dramatically in six months (went from a pudgy 220 to a lean 155).  I have used cocaine and methamphetamine on a very few sparse occasions in my past but I didn't see what the big allure was.  I haven't touched either in years.  Yet somehow some people seem to get hooked, and hooked *quick*.


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## Randy (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Riptide *_
> Some people seem to have better control over themselves than others.  While I have not exhibited such control at all stages of my life, I have been able to dismiss a few bad habits here and there.  I changed my body dramatically in six months (went from a pudgy 220 to a lean 155).  I have used cocaine and methamphetamine on a very few sparse occasions in my past but I didn't see what the big allure was.  I haven't touched either in years.  Yet somehow some people seem to get hooked, and hooked *quick*.




Agreed


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## chronic (May 12, 2004)

I'v been smoking weed since the spring i turned 10 and will be 20 this year in october and still smoke it almost everyday and i'm livin breathin proof it isnt a gateway drug, cause i'v never tried crack, coke, haroin, acid, shrooms, x or any other drug u can think of... except that one time when i had surgery on my eye and the docter gave me T3's to take away the pain, but i think the weed helped more than the T3's did
as far as does it help workout? it depends how much u smoke and how good it is, there have been times when i got the best workout of my life, lifting more weight for more reps and more sets, and other times where i was soo damm high i just said f*ck it.
if i smoke 2-3 joints by myself  i personally am more focused and can think more clear and can get a great workout, but if i smoke an ounce theres now way i'm gonna wanna lift weights, cause i know i'm too high, unless the bags gone and there's nothing els to do or we have a compitition or something, but i wouldnt be able to do the same weight for the same reps/sets, but every body's different, i know guys who'll smoke half a joint and be totally fried while it takes me 3grams to get past the buzzed state and actually feel high


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## Randy (May 12, 2004)

Chronic,

You're just repeating points that have been gone over and over and over in this thread already.  I just emphasized in my last post these words, "Can Be a Gateway".  The key words here is "Can Be!"   Naturally not everyone reacts this way.   The point that was made is that marijuana "COULD" act as a gateway to other drugs for some people.   The same holds true to anything such as alcohol.

Ugggg ohhhhh I'm not going down this road again


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## chronic (May 12, 2004)

true, but i only started reading this thread cause i thought it had something to do with "Marijuana and Bodybuilding" and was interested to hear other people's opinion's and experiences of how it affected there workout, not cause i wanted to argue about weather it's a gateway drug or not, if i wanna argue with somebody i'm sure i can find someone in this house to argue with.
does anybody els have an expierienced oppinion on "Marijuana and Bodybuilding" and how it helped or hurt there workout?


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## Randy (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by chronic *_
> true, but i only started reading this thread cause i thought it had something to do with "Marijuana and Bodybuilding" and was interested to hear other people's opinion's and experiences of how it affected there workout, not cause i wanted to argue about weather it's a gateway drug or not, if i wanna argue with somebody i'm sure i can find someone in this house to argue with.
> does anybody els have an expierienced oppinion on "Marijuana and Bodybuilding" and how it helped or hurt there workout?



Then why did you bring up the point about Marijuana not being a gateway if you didn't want to discuss it? 

Nobody intended on arguing about that point, it just came up in the conversation.


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## CowPimp (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Riptide *_
> Just my 2 cents...
> 
> 1) There is a correlation between smoking dope and using other drugs.  Is there a causation, however?  No, I don't think so.  I agree with the earlier poster that mentioned it being a gateway to meeting people that use other things, however.  But the drug itself does not cause you to use something else directly.
> ...



Good points.

1) Finally, someone said it clearly.  There is a correlation between marijuana usage and other drugs, but it is not the fault of marijuana.  The reasons behind that are many.

2) Of course marijuana is not good for you.  Any smoke you inhale is bad for your respiratory system.  However, there has not been one reported case of marijuana directly causing the death of even one person.

3) Agreed, but I still think there should be programs out there to help those who get addicted and cannot help themselves.

4) Indeed.  People react differently to every drug.  No one is the same, and their reactions to drugs aren't going to be the same either.


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## BobtheBuilder (May 21, 2004)

I'ts tough to be mota  vated.


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## CowPimp (May 21, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BobtheBuilder *_
> I'ts tough to be mota  vated.



Haha, good one mang.


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## CowPimp (May 21, 2004)

Oh, I have something interesting to ad to the original topic of the thread.  I quit smoking a little over 2 weeks ago and I haven't noticed any difference in terms of gains.  In fact, my rep range week suffered a little bit, but I think that is because of other factors.  I highly doubt quitting was actually bad for me.  Peace.


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## Randy (May 21, 2004)

CowPimp.... I sure have known a lot of smokers who have said that time after time after time after time again...  
"I quit smoking 2 weeks ago!"  Then a week or 2 later they are smoking again  

I truly hope you mean it though bro... Smoking does nothing but cause you harm.  And if you're referring to weed, that is better but still smoking is not good on the ole lungs.

Give us another progress report bro in 6 months


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## myCATpowerlifts (May 21, 2004)

i dont know what would be harder to quit

Masturbating or smoking

Prolly masturbating

smoking is easy to stop for me

I can go a pack everday for 2 weeks just for the hell of it
and then go cold turkey and not ever want on again


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## Randy (May 21, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by myCATpowerlifts *_
> 
> I can go a pack everday for 2 weeks just for the hell of it
> and then go cold turkey and not ever want on again



That statement sounds senseless.... 
I feel for those who have a severe habit of smoking and have difficulty quitting.   

I have no compassion at all for those who swear they can quit with no problem, but decide on their own free will to poison themselves by continuing to smoke.   That is sad, and I sure wouldn't admit that to anyone


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## PreMier (May 24, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> That statement sounds senseless....
> I feel for those who have a severe habit of smoking and have difficulty quitting.
> 
> I have no compassion at all for those who swear they can quit with no problem, but decide on their own free will to poison themselves by continuing to smoke.   That is sad, and I sure wouldn't admit that to anyone




Yes, CATS is a sad person... or atleast a sad excuse for one. haha


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## gr81 (May 24, 2004)

Randy, your statement is the senseless one. Its called ADDICTION dude, and it is a disease, a serious one at that. you shouldn't be so quick to judge till you walk in someone elses shoes. You think people just choose to become dependant on a substance and lose complete control over their life? Addicts are not weak-willed people, they deserve our compassion and support not our judgements and criticisms


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## Randy (May 24, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> Randy, your statement is the senseless one. Its called ADDICTION dude, and it is a disease, a serious one at that. you shouldn't be so quick to judge till you walk in someone elses shoes. You think people just choose to become dependant on a substance and lose complete control over their life? Addicts are not weak-willed people, they deserve our compassion and support not our judgements and criticisms





> _*Originally posted by myCATpowerlifts *_
> I can go a pack everday for 2 weeks just for the hell of it
> and then go cold turkey and not ever want on again




GR,

You're obviously oblivious to my point.   I know very well the havoc addiction can have on a person.  I think that you may have one yourself GR.  It must be affecting your brain 

If MyCATpowerlifts implied he had an addiction, I would have been more than sympathetic.
Did you bother to read the post at all?  If you did, you could clearly see that his post implied the exact opposite, which prompted my derogatory statement.

Do us all a favor GR and pull your head out of your  for 5 minutes,  and put down that marijuana, you might be able to think clearly


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## CowPimp (May 24, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> CowPimp.... I sure have known a lot of smokers who have said that time after time after time after time again...
> "I quit smoking 2 weeks ago!"  Then a week or 2 later they are smoking again
> 
> ...



I don't plan on quitting permanently.  I just like to quit now and again for a few reasons.  Right now the main reason is that I am trying to get a job and a lot of employers piss test.  I would never quit permanently.  If moderated properly, the health risks are very minor and I find my overall quality of life is better if I can relax and take a couple of bong hits whenever I feel the need.


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## Randy (May 24, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by CowPimp *_
> I don't plan on quitting permanently.  I just like to quit now and again for a few reasons.  Right now the main reason is that I am trying to get a job and a lot of employers piss test.  I would never quit permanently.  If moderated properly, the health risks are very minor and I find my overall quality of life is better if I can relax and take a couple of bong hits whenever I feel the need.



We all have our vises Cowpimp... If the vise poses no threat for addiction, and is used in moderation then it can yield positive results.  As you pointed out "Relieving stress".    But in the previous scenario where one is smoking 2 packs of cigarettes knowing the addiction attributes, and to say they can quit for weeks thereby implying no addiction, well one question comes to my mind "Why the hell would they smoke at all?"


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## CowPimp (May 24, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> We all have our vises Cowpimp... If the vise poses no threat for addiction, and is used in moderation then it can yield positive results.  As you pointed out "Relieving stress".    But in the previous scenario where one is smoking 2 packs of cigarettes knowing the addiction attributes, and to say they can quit for weeks thereby implying no addiction, well one question comes to my mind "Why the hell would they smoke at all?"



Well most of the time when people say that they aren't addicted they just don't know it because they have never tried to quit.  There are some people who can smoke sometimes and control it, but most people cannot.


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## Randy (May 24, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by CowPimp *_
> Well most of the time when people say that they aren't addicted they just don't know it because they have never tried to quit.  There are some people who can smoke sometimes and control it, but most people cannot.





> _*Originally posted by myCATpowerlifts *_
> I can go a pack everday for 2 weeks just for the hell of it
> and then go cold turkey and not ever want on again



Is that how you would interpret this statement Cowpimp?  

If so, then I think you better read it a few more times, then read it again before going to bed.   Then tell me again what you think in the morning   

Oh, and MyCat.....no offense and nothing personal here... Just want you to know that.


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## CowPimp (May 24, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Is that how you would interpret this statement Cowpimp?
> 
> If so, then I think you better read it a few more times, then read it again before going to bed.   Then tell me again what you think in the morning
> ...



I didn't misinterpret the statement.  As I said, *most* people that say they aren't addicted have never tried to quit.  That did not encompass myCAT.  Then I said there are some people who can control it, which does include myCAT.  I guess I just didn't really respond directly enough to the comment you made; I can see why you would view my statement that way.

Smoking cigarettes occasionally has the same effect as drinking occasionally if it something that a person enjoys.  It can assist someone in relaxing or feeling better.  However, I wouldn't consider smoking a pack every day for 2 weeks moderation.  Maybe a pack every 2 weeks is what I would consider moderation.  In my opinion, the negative effects certainly outweigh the benefits if you smoke a pack a day for two weeks.


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## Randy (May 24, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by CowPimp *_
> I didn't misinterpret the statement.  As I said, *most* people that say they aren't addicted have never tried to quit.  That did not encompass myCAT.  Then I said there are some people who can control it, which does include myCAT.  I guess I just didn't really respond directly enough to the comment you made; I can see why you would view my statement that way.
> 
> Smoking cigarettes occasionally has the same effect as drinking occasionally if it something that a person enjoys.
> ...


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## Dipsh!t (May 24, 2004)

One of my friends back at high school, he started somke cigarette, then pot, then now into needles. what a waste... he works so hard to satisfy his needs.

I say better not to start is the best.


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## Randy (May 24, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dipsh!t *_
> One of my friends back at high school, he started somke cigarette, then pot, then now into needles. what a waste... he works so hard to satisfy his needs.
> 
> I say better not to start is the best.



Now this is the wisest post I've seen all day 
Kind of ironic coming from a Dipsh!t, Don't you think


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## CowPimp (May 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> If you define a pack a day as occasional, I think you better lookup the meaning of the word "occasional".



As you can see by sentence after next: "However, I wouldn't consider smoking a pack every day for 2 weeks moderation," I do not feel this way.  Nowhere did I say that smoking a pack a day is occasional usage.



> There are far better ways to relax than introducing yourself to something that you know has such high addiction qualities and something that you know kills you. If you're here to defend cigarettes then I think you're on the wrong forum .



Everyone finds something that helps them relax.  Granted, smoking is not the best way to relax when you consider all of the damage it does to one's health.  However, some people have trouble relaxing; if cigarettes can help these people find a way, then it might not be so bad if they can properly moderate their intake.  If they have already tried cigarettes and know they can control their habit, then it might be a beneficial tool to help their mental status.  However, people should not start smoking to see if it works well for them in this department because approximately 1/3 of all people who try cigarettes become addicted.

I'm not defending cigarettes.  They kill ridiculous (400,000 Americans) amounts of people every year.  However, not everything is one sided.  Just because I have found one benefit of smoking cigarettes does not mean I defend them.  As I said, "In my opinion, the negative effects certainly outweigh the benefits if you smoke a pack a day for two weeks."  I'm just saying that if someone has already tried cigarettes and they know they can control themselves, then it is not the worst thing in the world.



> Who cares what you would consider moderation, that is not the point. The point once again is that if one clearly states that they can quit, but choses to smoke a pack a day for the hell of it, in my mind that is clearly sensless. What is funny is how senseless you or anyone else is who tries to defend cigarette smoking at all. Every smoker I know would clearly admit that it is unhealthy and wish they never started. What moron would try to defend smoking cigarettes  Now Marijuana, which this thread is all about to begin with is a different story.



Why is it senseless, and why do you need to start calling me senseless?  You also imply that I am a moron because you believe that I am defending cigarettes.  There is no need for name calling or personal attacks.  

If cigarette smoking is something that they enjoy, then it makes a whole lot of sense.  It doesn't make sense to you, but it makes sense to that person.  Mentioning one positive aspect of smoking while acknowledging all of the negative aspects is not called defending cigarettes.  It is called providing unbiased facts.  You should try not to look at things in black and white.


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## Randy (May 25, 2004)

Cowpimp,

While I do not understand how you can support cigarette smoking in any capacity, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
That's all I have to say on this subject.


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## Randy (May 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by CowPimp *_
> Why is it senseless, if cigarette smoking is something that they enjoy, then it makes a whole lot of sense.



Here is another bright statement by CowPimp... 
You think that just because someone enjoys something that it makes a whole lot of sense.  You sure have a lot to learn about life.  How old are you? 

People enjoy heroin,  does that mean it makes a lot of sense.
Come on now CowPimp.  You are talking very foolish here. 

Here is a shovel CowPimp,  care to dig yourself any deeper?


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## CowPimp (May 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Here is another bright statement by CowPimp...
> You think that just because someone enjoys something that it makes a whole lot of sense.  You sure have a lot to learn about life.  How old are you?
> 
> ...



I said as long as they properly moderate their intake.  There is a difference between someone who smokes the occasional cigarette and someone who smokes a pack per day.  The person who smokes the occasional cigarette has drastically reduced the chance of their health being affected while simultaneously taking advantage of the one positive aspect of cigarette smoking that I have mentioned, which is the one positive aspect of any drug: enjoyment and relaxation.

I don't think any drug is bad as long as it is properly moderated.  If someone does heroin once every few months, then it's not so bad.  The problem arises when they become highly addicted.  

I'm not saying someone should try drugs for the first time because of the possibility of addiction.  I'm saying that if someone can control their habit, then it is not such a bad thing if they take advantage of the positive effect that a drug can have on one's conciousness now and again.

You seem to have trouble separating the occasional usage of a drug and addictive behavior.  I think one can be beneficial, but not the other.  No drug should be used in excess, no matter how "harmless."


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## Randy (May 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by CowPimp *_
> I don't think any drug is bad as long as it is properly moderated.  If someone does heroin once every few months, then it's not so bad.  The problem arises when they become highly addicted.



I can see it now.  Cowpimp having his first discussion about drugs with his children.

Kids,  I don't think any drug is bad as long as it is properly moderated.   Now despite what your teachers tell you,  doctors,  anti-drug media, and everyone else ... If someone does heroin once every few months, then it's not so bad.  The problem only arises when they become highly addicted...

Cowpimp.... I think you should stop now, your statements sound
completely ridiculous.      I feel truly sorry for your kids if you have any now, or plan to have them in the future.  I sure hope you get more sense by then and would never tell them what you stated here.


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## CowPimp (May 25, 2004)

I would tell my kids never to start because you never know if you will become addicted.  As I said before, these statement only apply to people who have already tried drugs and know they can control their habits.  If you have never started, then you shouldn't because you are risking becoming addicted.

You are obviously just brainwashed by the media.  There are safe ways of doing drugs, but it is hard for you to accept that.  My opinion isn't changing and neither is yours.  My argument ends here.


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## Randy (May 25, 2004)

You are getting way out of the subject line Cowpimp.
All of your bullshit is based on my simple statement that why would someone intentionally smoke a pack a day when they claim they are not addicted and know the addiction factors and harm cigarretes can do.   (Plain and simple!)     Now where did all of your bullshit come from?  You keep talking about shit that I never even brought up....   I'm done wasting my time with you CowPimp.


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## Randy (May 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by CowPimp *_
> You seem to have trouble separating the occasional usage of a drug and addictive behavior.  I think one can be beneficial, but not the other.  No drug should be used in excess, no matter how "harmless."



Now where do you keep coming up with occassional usage?  My entire comment was based on MyCat who clearly indicated he was smoking a pack a day...That is not occassional usage.   And further more how can you condone 1 cigarette a day or 20... It has been proven time and time and time again they kill people.  What is your arguement??????  If one smokes 1 a day and falls into your little classification of "Occassional use"   Don't you think that could turn into an addiction knowing the addiction qualities of cigarrettes....    Get a clue Cowpimp....    Or why don't you try to prove me wrong...   Go ahead and smoke a few cigarrettes every day      Heck!!!! there nothing wrong with it in your clouded mind


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## skinner3233 (May 27, 2004)

i'll put it simply....there is a time for work.....and there is a time for play


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## JACO1974 (May 28, 2004)

I can't believe you idiots are talking about this on a public message board!!


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## PreMier (May 28, 2004)

JACO1974 said:
			
		

> I can't believe you idiots are talking about this on a public message board!!




Yea, fuck what are they thinking.  A cop will arrive at each of their houses in the next few minutes


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## Randy (May 28, 2004)

Who is talking about what?


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## Yunier (Mar 1, 2005)

I see the point FLEX was trying to make on the first couple of pages. Many of my friends started experimenting with weed back in grammer school, yup grammer school! In High School I had alot more friends who started smoking weed and alcohol on a regular basis. I tried weed a few times my freshmen year and did not like it, but did like alcohol. By the time some of these kids were seniors they had started smoking crak. I also seen "smart" kids smoking weed and they got better grades & schools then the non-smokers. I've also seen "good" kids fuck up their lives because of drugs, really sad.

Do I have any "research" stating that harmless weed can lead to crack, coke, meth, ect..No I don't. And I have nothing against people who smoke weed its their money, body and life. But I've seen many kids starting with harmless weed to doing crack, god knows what they doing now.


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## DOMS (Mar 1, 2005)

The term "gateway drug" isn't just a sound bite.


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## metsfan1190 (Mar 1, 2005)

> But I've seen many kids starting with harmless weed to doing crack, god knows what they doing now.



So if they never smoked weed, they would have never done crack?


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## LAM (Mar 1, 2005)

Yunier said:
			
		

> I see the point FLEX was trying to make on the first couple of pages. Many of my friends started experimenting with weed back in grammer school, yup grammer school! In High School I had alot more friends who started smoking weed and alcohol on a regular basis. I tried weed a few times my freshmen year and did not like it, but did like alcohol. By the time some of these kids were seniors they had started smoking crak. I also seen "smart" kids smoking weed and they got better grades & schools then the non-smokers. I've also seen "good" kids fuck up their lives because of drugs, really sad.



conversely I have seen just as many goodie to shoes in high school that didn't drink or smoke weed that are now all fucked up on alcohol and other drugs in their 30's. while the rest of us who experimented at a younger age got it all out of our system.  

it works both ways


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## Yunier (Mar 1, 2005)

metsfan1190 said:
			
		

> So if they never smoked weed, they would have never done crack?



I never said that, anyways there are so many variables to make a conclusion that smoking weed alone is going to lead to harder drugs. I am going by what I have seen besides this can be debated to death. 

Now tell me this, have you even met someone who said "OK. Today sucks so I am going to try Coke to feel better" ?

LAM, I agree completely. Then you can have people whos lifes are all screwed up by drugs and they make a complete turn.


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## SlimShady (Mar 1, 2005)

People say that weed leads to harder drugs, but I don't believe it. Freinds lead to harder drugs... cause that's how it always happens. A person is with some friends and one guy says "hey, I got some coke, wanna try some?" ... next thing you know, everyone is high.


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## njc (Mar 1, 2005)

You guys go ahead and debate. Ill just be over here smokin.  I will admit however, that I would be completely shredded if it werent for my increased appetitte.  Now im about 10-12 pounds too fat.


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## clemson357 (Mar 2, 2005)

Flex said:
			
		

> i think the reason it is illegal is not b/c of the effects it has on you, but more because of its potential to be a gateway drug. ANYONE who says its not a gateway drug is full of, how do you say, shit.




I am not going to say that it isn't a gateway drug, because I have known many people who started with weed and moved on to stronger things.  However, I do think you might be jumping to conclusions about what that means, or why it is a gateway drug.

do you think that if you could walk into any convenient store and buy a pack of joints, that people would associate it with other drugs?  I think that part of the reason people may move on to harder drugs is because of the people they met while toking, if you have to get it illegally that means you usually have to deal with some sketchy people.  If you associate with them on a regular basis, you are going to start getting influenced by the sketchy things that they do.  I would say that if you never knew those people, those connections, because you buy your week at the Bi-Lo, you wouldn't have moved on to coke, then ex, then heroin...

or, it may be that "gateway drug" is a bullshit term altogether.  what does that mean, that they did that drug first?  so what.  they also probably drank alcohol before they smoked weed, doesn't that mean that alcohol is really the gateway drug?  after all, most people will agree that alcohol is a stronger drug than weed. they also probably smoked cigarettes before they drank alcohol.  doesn't that make cigarettes the gateway drug?

the fact is that almost every person smokes a cigarette to look cool in middle school, most people move on to alcohol, a lot of those people move on to weed, a few of those move on to shrooms or coke, some of those move on to LSD or ex, and a couple of those move on to Heroin, crack, PCP or Meth.  To say that if any one of those substances was missing from the chain, all the rest would never be abused, is an unjustified conclusion.


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## clemson357 (Mar 2, 2005)

wow, that is a really long post.

on a personal level, I found that toking actually helped me lift.  I would zone out, and be less likely to get bored and leave before I got threw my workout.  Although, I have to say that I was never the type of toker to get high and then sit on a couch and watch TV, I pretty much only liked getting high before I did something active, like hike out to the lake, or wakeboard, or snowboard, or lift.


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## gr81 (Mar 2, 2005)

The term Gateway drugs is misleading and incorrect, sorry Flex, but you can't prove it is either. Just b/c someone starts to smoke weed, and then later on in life does other drugs, doesn't necessarily indicate cause and effect, not at all. You have to understand chemical dependency within the human mind to understand that we don't work that way. If it did work that way, than anything that slightly affects our neurological disposition could be considered a gateway drug, from coffee to chocolate. Addiction is a genetic biological disease where people often search for emotional answers from substances when they were not able to develop normal ways to cope with stress, trauma, abuse. Marijuana in itself is NOT physically addictive, and smoking weed in NO WAY means you are going to move onto other drugs, just as it is no guarantee the other way around. If a person DOES move onto other drugs later on, the cause should be more closely examined and attributed to emotional or neurological dependency and the human brain related to chemical stimulation than the simple fact that they tried weed and now they simply want something harder. Its a HUGE misconception and NO ONE here can prove otherwise. Human beings are just not that simple, we are not that black and white that we can just look at the situation from a far and say well first they did A, then they did B, so they did A b/c of B. Its really not that simple guys, its deserves more discussion and thought than a simple linear cause and effect relationship as has been suggested. peace


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## RCfootball87 (Mar 2, 2005)

I've smoked a lot of weed in my life, and I've never felt compelled to use anything harder, I knew before I ever started smoking weed that it was all I'd ever use.


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## Deeznuts (Mar 2, 2005)

Wow - I started this thread way over a year ago lol I can't believe it's still going. I smoked quite a bit of pot this summer when I pretty much gave up on myself, but have been clean as a whistle for the past 6 mos.    No pot, no alcohol. You'll be suprised what kind of gains you can produce when you take away these two drugs. They may not be proven to negatively effect you too much (pot anyways), but i'll say first hand they fucked me up.


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## CowPimp (Mar 2, 2005)

gr81 said:
			
		

> The term Gateway drugs is misleading and incorrect, sorry Flex, but you can't prove it is either. Just b/c someone starts to smoke weed, and then later on in life does other drugs, doesn't necessarily indicate cause and effect, not at all. You have to understand chemical dependency within the human mind to understand that we don't work that way. If it did work that way, than anything that slightly affects our neurological disposition could be considered a gateway drug, from coffee to chocolate. Addiction is a genetic biological disease where people often search for emotional answers from substances when they were not able to develop normal ways to cope with stress, trauma, abuse. Marijuana in itself is NOT physically addictive, and smoking weed in NO WAY means you are going to move onto other drugs, just as it is no guarantee the other way around. If a person DOES move onto other drugs later on, the cause should be more closely examined and attributed to emotional or neurological dependency and the human brain related to chemical stimulation than the simple fact that they tried weed and now they simply want something harder. Its a HUGE misconception and NO ONE here can prove otherwise. Human beings are just not that simple, we are not that black and white that we can just look at the situation from a far and say well first they did A, then they did B, so they did A b/c of B. Its really not that simple guys, its deserves more discussion and thought than a simple linear cause and effect relationship as has been suggested. peace



Well said.  Also, no one brings up the fact that most people drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes before they try marijuana.  Does that mean those are also gateway drugs?  I think not.

The idea of a gateway drug is a total fallacy.  One chemical cannot make you dependant on another.  This just doesn't happen.  Even if you were to provide studies saying that someone who smokes marijuana is more likely to use other drugs, that means nothing.  This, in no way, proves that marijuana is the cause of this.  You could also provide a study that "proves" heroin is a gateway drug.  A heroin user is probably more likely to use marijuana, cocaine, other opiates, etc.  Does that make herion a gateway drug?  Please.


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## LittleBigMan (Mar 2, 2005)

smoking while working out can also seem easier since marijuana is a bronchiodialotor (sp?) which means it opens up airways and allows for better breathing. This may seem contradictory in that smoke helps the airways, but it is temporary. try smoking when you have a cold and watch your sinuses open up for about an hour...


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## gr81 (Mar 2, 2005)

> The idea of a gateway drug is a total fallacy. One chemical cannot make you dependant on another. This just doesn't happen. Even if you were to provide studies saying that someone who smokes marijuana is more likely to use other drugs, that means nothing. This, in no way, proves that marijuana is the cause of this. You could also provide a study that "proves" heroin is a gateway drug. A heroin user is probably more likely to use marijuana, cocaine, other opiates, etc. Does that make herion a gateway drug? Please.



exactly! people think its such a simple equation when its not at all, its quite complex. It would be like me assuming that since a person has muscle mass, they must be a genius when it comes to the science of weight training when everyone here knows that size is no indicator of smarts. But at a glance that makes sense... Whether or not a person uses drugs, no matter what they are is just like everything else in life, its a combination of possible genetic predisposition as well as lifestyle factors and upbringing and other various factors, not some magic force contained in the bowl your smoking.That is evident in the fact that certain people have drugs of choice, and for no apparent reason besides them just preferring it. Weed has never been as appealing to my close friend as it has been to me, yet he loves pain pills much more than other people, other guys love alcohol and never touch anything else besides the booze, what would the explanation for that be besides the one I have stated?


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## CowPimp (Mar 3, 2005)

LittleBigMan said:
			
		

> smoking while working out can also seem easier since marijuana is a bronchiodialotor (sp?) which means it opens up airways and allows for better breathing. This may seem contradictory in that smoke helps the airways, but it is temporary. try smoking when you have a cold and watch your sinuses open up for about an hour...



Yup.  A friend of mine has reoccuring asthma problems that only occur when he is forced to quit smoking for one reason or another.


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## gr81 (Mar 3, 2005)

> Well said. Also, no one brings up the fact that most people drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes before they try marijuana. Does that mean those are also gateway drugs? I think not.



theres a latin phrase that I think is appropriate... _Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc_
This means "after, therefore because of" and that seems to be how people determine cause and effect relationships. This needs closer attention and thought before we assign acountability IMO


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## Maynard Keenan (Mar 8, 2005)

Weed Is Absolutely Fine For You And Training.  Cigerettes Are 20 X Worse As Well As Alcohol.  Ive Been Smoking Weed All 12 Years Of My Lifting And Continued Each Year To Make Gains In Every Area. Im Benching 455 And Squatting 565. And Ive Never Met A Stoner I Didnt Like.....as For The Alcoholics?


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## simbh (Apr 3, 2005)

Since I don't drink I sometimes smoke after I'm done with a workout . But it's probably a once a week thing now . Like some said , I'm as strong as I ever been . Although I will say that weed demotivates , but for some reason I never missed a gym workout since I got back to training 8 months ago . 

As for dropping test levels , I don't know . After I smoke I'm horny as hell for some reason


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## Jay334 (Apr 3, 2005)

I never touch the stuff.


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## Metman07 (Apr 4, 2005)

You have to do everything in moderation. I smoke every once in a while. Usually on the weekends at a party. I drink regularly too, but I rarely get shit faced.


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## primus_122 (Apr 4, 2005)

Weed doesnt hurt you much, you cant overdose on it, as for body building i dont know how much it effects you, i guess it differs with everyone. Weed is somewhat of a gateway drug but its not weed itself, the thing is we have been lied to by our parents and the goverment that weed is bad for you and you will die if you smoke it, we try it and we see that we have been lied to and begin to think this might be true for other drugs.


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## kushgenius (Mar 30, 2011)

Deeznuts said:


> Insipred by the training vs. alcohol thread I searced the internet in hopes of finding some articles on the adverse effects of marijuana while wait training. Sadly, I couldn't find anything 100% factual. I don't smoke myself (anymore), but have lots of friends who do. Does weed actually effect your body and muscle recovery?


 Im really buff and a daily pot smoker and I never had any difficulty gaining muscle however I did notice that my muscles were not as firm as they were when I didn't smoke weed it doesn't effect my strength or anything just the firmness... If I smoke before I workout I get higher and don't feel like working out anymore so now I just smoke afterwards so thats what I would recomend for your pot smoking friends


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## PreMier (Mar 30, 2011)

kushgenius said:


> Im really buff and a daily pot smoker and I never had any difficulty gaining muscle however I did notice that my muscles were not as firm as they were when I didn't smoke weed it doesn't effect my strength or anything just the firmness... If I smoke before I workout I get higher and don't feel like working out anymore so now I just smoke afterwards so thats what I would recomend for your pot smoking friends



first post on a bodybuilding board, in a marijuana thread thats been inactive over 5 years? oh, your from detroit.. that makes sense.


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## elbkind (Apr 9, 2011)

Deeznuts said:


> When I used to smoke I would actually sometimes get HIGH and then workout. Sometimes I would have the best workout of my life (of course I could've just been thinking that) other times I just said screw it and went and smoked again. This is why I completely cut smoking and alcohol out of my diet. I was just wanting some information to persuade all my friends not to smoke (most of them are into bodybuilding and i'm starting to see their lives go downhill.) I guess I could mention the lowered testosterone though.



I feel you, sometimes i would have a really nice work out after token up, but just a couple of small hits. Would relax me and give me a good motivation at the same time. I think it also depends on what kind of bud your smoking.


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## cr250cra1 (Aug 30, 2011)

Deeznuts said:


> But that's exactly my point..if marijuana were legalized where would the line be drawn?



Weed Was legal at one time! So legal that the president Woodrow Wilson ordered people to grow it , Alcohol was illegal what do you think Italian mobsters started out selling? but when people in high places got their hands around a bottle they decided to legalize it.  That idiots argument about weed being a gate way drug because people take it to feel better and take the edge off well then the same can be said for tobacco, alcohol and even a Bayer aspirin those are all used under the same pretenses so they are all gateway drugs right? oh and by the way for the heroin guys heroin was created by Bayer the same place who makes the aspirin it was made to sooth cough's.


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## oden (Sep 4, 2011)

pot dosent matter at all either way -what ever turns you on! booze and the outher shit will kill you -your progress- steal your mind etc----


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## PanterA (Sep 4, 2011)

I love pot. Makes me smile =) I have gone yrs with it and yrs without it. 130lbs to 200+ relatively lean in almost 5 yrs. I have nothing bad to say about it. I just don't like spending money on it but I'm very conservative with it. I can't believe how much some spend on that shit!

And yeah first time I heard pure heroin has 0 long term sides on the body was during a class for probation yrs ago... The man who did the class ran a methadone clinic. I have also looked it up online for the doubters. Meth is actually by far the worst drug ever yet heroin still gets all the glory, lol.

And Dealers don't cut drugs with drugs! If they do you will know cause they're charging for it. Now what they will do is like what my friend used to do. He'd go to the pet store and buy this stuff (some type of salt I think), put it on a plate and microwave it. It melts you let it cool and smack it and it broke up to look exactly like meth. Smoked and everything. He actually bought a bag from this guy and picked out all the cut (one side is perfectly flat and smooth from being on the plate), took it back and said now replace this with dope. haha


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## PanterA (Sep 4, 2011)

cr250cra1 said:


> Weed Was legal at one time! So legal that the president Woodrow Wilson ordered people to grow it , Alcohol was illegal what do you think Italian mobsters started out selling? but when people in high places got their hands around a bottle they decided to legalize it. That idiots argument about weed being a gate way drug because people take it to feel better and take the edge off well then the same can be said for tobacco, alcohol and even a Bayer aspirin those are all used under the same pretenses so they are all gateway drugs right? oh and by the way for the heroin guys heroin was created by Bayer the same place who makes the aspirin it was made to sooth cough's.


 
Cigs are the gateway drug if one exist... People smoke them to be cool and because of peer pressure. No other reason do people start that nasty shit.

But I heard a guy put it perfectly one day. Milk is the gateway drug cause we all start off drinking milk as babies and then move onto alcohol, lol.


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## sofargone561 (Sep 4, 2011)

i have a friend who loves to smoke before the gym and in most cases after, he swears up and down that smoking before makes him more focused and smoking after calms him down so he can relax haha idk i think him and all the rest that do it are idiot (smoke b4 the gym of course haha nothing rong with a little recreational puffin)


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## PanterA (Sep 4, 2011)

sofargone561 said:


> i have a friend who loves to smoke before the gym and in most cases after, he swears up and down that smoking before makes him more focused and smoking after calms him down so he can relax haha idk i think him and all the rest that do it are idiot (smoke b4 the gym of course haha nothing rong with a little recreational puffin)


 

Well have you heard the phrase zone out? Sometimes smokers do this... They just zone out, lol. Well for me and a lot of guys I like to reffer to it as zone in. Doesn't matter what you're doing, all your focus and concentration will pour into it. There's honestly some truth to it. But affects people differently blah blah blah...

My stepdad who has never smoked actually defended me on this one time. He's a musician and he told my Mom when I was about 15, who hates pot with a passion, "no he's right. I have seen this with guys I have played with before."


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## sofargone561 (Sep 4, 2011)

PanterA said:


> Well have you heard the phrase zone out? Sometimes smokers do this... They just zone out, lol. Well for me and a lot of guys I like to reffer to it as zone in. Doesn't matter what you're doing, all your focus and concentration will pour into it. There's honestly some truth to it. But affects people differently blah blah blah...
> 
> My stepdad who has never smoked actually defended me on this one time. He's a musician and he told my Mom when I was about 15, who hates pot with a passion, "no he's right. I have seen this with guys I have played with before."


 i used to smoke weed on daily basis i would wake up and smoke b4 i pissed as soon as i started to lose my high i would smoke again, I know all the affects of smoking, and yes their is plenty truth to this Zone that you get But these guys spend hours at the gym daily and have bairly put on mucle and shredded a little bf. For someone who eats right drinks the protien shakes and shit its disaapointing i told them to cut back but they dont listen lol. I think the low test thing is correct on weed i wouldnt be suprised at all


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## ScottyMac710 (Sep 4, 2011)

I've been drug free for a little while now, but i can definitely say that smoking before my workout (usually also having some caffeine or pre-workout which i do whether i smoke or not) really helps to clear my mind and focus only on the task at hand and the muscles i'm working. I truly feel like i get a better mind-muscle connection if i blaze a little before i hit the gym. I'd explain it as such - being a little high simplifies the way i'm thinking, i.e. if i'm watching tv im focused only watching tv, if i'm drawing i'm focused only on my drawing, if i'm lifting i'm able to focus only on lifting and can more clearly feel the muscles working. 

Much more-so than the effect pre-workout however is the obvious effect of increased appetite from smoking weed. during a bulk i often find it difficult to force a meal down every 3 hours, especially if my appetite is a little decreased from running orals  or something which happens to me a bit. smoking a little bowl instantly cures any nausea or lack of appetite and I'm able to eat what i need to when i need to.

As i said when I started my post, I'm currently drug free and doing really well with it and with my training. I'm in better shape than just about any before and i'm currently off cycle (about to start up). In no way do i feel like I need weed to train, eat, or succeed in my goals in bodybuilding, but it's far from the negative effects that plenty of legal alternatives have on training.


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## PanterA (Sep 4, 2011)

sofargone561 said:


> i used to smoke weed on daily basis i would wake up and smoke b4 i pissed as soon as i started to lose my high i would smoke again, I know all the affects of smoking, and yes their is plenty truth to this Zone that you get But these guys spend hours at the gym daily and have bairly put on mucle and shredded a little bf. For someone who eats right drinks the protien shakes and shit its disaapointing i told them to cut back but they dont listen lol. I think the low test thing is correct on weed i wouldnt be suprised at all


 

I was never able to find anything to fully support the test/estrogen levels with weed. I read an intersteing report showing exactly why that theory started and made perfect sense on paper, but there was no proof according to this study. IDK but I inject my test and use e control so I couldn't care less, lol.


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## ScottyMac710 (Sep 4, 2011)

Very old post, but when i saw the thread i read the first page and this cracked me up...




QuestionGuy said:


> ok, so go "experiment" with some heroin and come back and tell us how it is than ok ??? and whike you are at it go try some Acid *Proven to be one of the safest recreational drugs in existence*, psp *a hand-held video game system*, lsd *(acid, as you mentioned two words ago)* etc... and come back and report, " there is nothing dumb" with that *(probably shouldn't challenge intelligence with a post displaying lack of any knowledge on the subject at hand)*


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## ScottyMac710 (Sep 4, 2011)

PanterA said:


> I was never able to find anything to fully support the test/estrogen levels with weed. I read an intersteing report showing exactly why that theory started and made perfect sense on paper, but there was no proof according to this study. IDK but I inject my test and use e control so I couldn't care less, lol.



^this^ .. and the common myth about the phyto-estrogens in cannabis has been shown to be untrue because they aren't biologically active in humans. in a way it may actually block some real estrogen from receptors but this is complete bro-science on my part


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## 240PLUS (Sep 4, 2011)

Sorry guys, but this thread is lame as fuck. Smoking and working out just don't mix for me. Some guys love it, not me. Maybe I need to give it a chance, but I smoke to relax and enjoy my time at home AFTER a work out.


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## sofargone561 (Sep 4, 2011)

Smoke and get icey's and bj's!


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## PanterA (Sep 4, 2011)

240PLUS said:


> Sorry guys, but this thread is lame as fuck. Smoking and working out just don't mix for me. Some guys love it, not me. Maybe I need to give it a chance, *but I smoke to relax and enjoy my time at home AFTER a work out*.


 

That's what I do too. I used to smoke all day for yrs. But just smoking at the end of the day when everything in life has been taken care of, is much more relaxing and enjoyable.


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## 240PLUS (Sep 5, 2011)

PanterA said:


> That's what I do too. I used to smoke all day for yrs. But just smoking at the end of the day when everything in life has been taken care of, is much more relaxing and enjoyable.



I've found that weed gets better and better with age.  Being 33 now, there is a time and place for my herb and it isn't when I smash weights.


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## cg89 (Sep 5, 2011)

smoke on the night before your off day


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## MaxEarn (Mar 24, 2012)

Info found
http://www.ukcia.org/research/EndocrineEffects.pdf

Seems long term use is void of effects, like everything else the body adapts. SO the effect on Hormones are short lived, but other areas to be concerned with...respiratory and cancer


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## Diggman (Jan 23, 2013)

QuestionGuy said:


> ok, so go "experiment" with some heroin and come back and tell us how it is than ok ??? and whike you are at it go try some Acid, psp, lsd etc... and come back and report, " there is nothing dumb" with that,


Actually lsd and acid are the same thing and it's on addictive has no known side affects so basically harmless as long as you are smart with it not something you would or could do everyday or even once a month it is a very powerful phycodelic the "high" you get from acid is much more powerful then meth just two gallons of lsd is enough to get all of the United States tripping


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## CaptainNapalm (Jan 23, 2013)

Psychologically yes, physically likely not


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## A-team (Jan 23, 2013)

I used to smoke a blunt on the way to the gym and was always focused on my routine although I was high out of my mind.  I probably went wrong with the munchies and junk i was comsuming after getting blazed again at night.  Your going to get results as long as you are lifting weights getting a pump and whether its more productive the if you were sober depends on the other variables like what your consuming for munches, supplements and other post workouts lifestyles.  I quit smoking for 8 months now and have significant improvements to my muscle gain but I also added multi vitamins, L-Arginine, more protein and BCAA to the roster, so I can't accurately scale the difference from before...


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## Merkaba (Jan 27, 2013)

What the fuck are people still up at night googling this kinda shit for????????????

This fucking industry....


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## mkoldus (May 10, 2013)

It doesn't leave you impotent. I just got my wife prego and smoke daily along with being on 1.4 grams of gear.


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## Tommygunzthomas (Dec 8, 2013)

post got a little off subject ayy


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## vegas (Dec 8, 2013)

wicked bump.. "smoke weed every day" and literally work out 6 days a week so if you can`t get motivated your A. not a true pot head or B. lazy as crap.. my munchie food is protein powder in yogurt


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## gamma (Dec 8, 2013)

Super old ass thread . 9 years in the making crazy!  Smoke, dont smoke each is own.  There is plenty of very productive people in society who smoke as well as who dont. I personally don't but I'm advocate for  legalization when the time comes. It needs to be regulated And controlled much like many states are doing now.


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## ElitePeptides (Dec 9, 2013)

Heard it reduces lactic acid build up! =P


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## blergs. (Dec 10, 2013)

every singe day medicater here,  dont use cannabis as an excuse for being lazy!

There are SOOOMANY positives that it just blows away the very few mild negatives... for most..

A MUST read for anyone interested to see how many things it helps WITH study and exp behind it> http://www.medicinalgenomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/700-cannabis-studies-2012.pdf

that is not even the updated version!  some people just dont have ANY idea just how much good cannabis can do!


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## KelJu (Dec 10, 2013)

blergs. said:


> every singe day medicater here,  dont use cannabis as an excuse for being lazy!
> 
> There are SOOOMANY positives that it just blows away the very few mild negatives... for most..
> 
> ...



Most people who have never tried smoking weed and working out have a negative view of it. Most people who have tired it have a positive view of it. What does that tell you?

I remember arguing with that Merkaba faggot who couldn't resist chiming in every weed thread to whine and cry about how people who use weed to improve themselves are wrong, If he wasn't open to discussion, then he should have minded his own prolapsed colon and business.


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## blergs. (Dec 10, 2013)

watch this>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QBlvCPeMwc


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## thomasre7 (Dec 10, 2013)

I agree. I tend to get very demotivated when stoned. I've also read it can cause moobs


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## Acheron (Jan 4, 2014)

I've been smoking pot on and off for much of my adult life and haven't found that it impacts me much.  The caveat is that I only smoke at the end of the day to help me relax.  If I smoked it throughout the day I'd probably never leave my chair.


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