# Carlories in Calories out



## TooOld (Nov 22, 2011)

Just trying to understand this concept which quite frankly makes no sense to me. I hear it mentioned many times on this forum and have read quite allot about the opinions & controversy surrounding this concept. Note that I'm not talking about forums (bro science) but actual books and lectures.
I've read some of Lyle McDonalds stuff and unless I've missed something he rarely mentions insulin interaction. Talks about Carbs and fats stored as fats but doesn't explain exactly why. Only states "there are studies"...what studies?

What am I missing here? Why does this calories in calories out stuff sound like a bunch of bunk to me?
I can eat protein all day long, along with moderate fats and not get fat. Also, if I eat only a moderate amount of carbs with the same amount of fats and less protein I'll gain fat given my activity level stays the same?
Am i an anomaly or does this calories in calories out thing only apply to some but not others?


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## troubador (Nov 22, 2011)

TooOld said:


> Am i an anomaly or does this calories in calories out thing only apply to some but not others?



Calories in vs. calories out has more to do with body mass than body composition. Body composition is more of a subsequent effect of the total calories you take in. Calories are a measurement of energy so even with food the law of conservation of energy and mass applies. So to lose weight, you either have to excrete mass(poop, pee, splooge, etc) or burn it as energy. Of course the Calories listed on the food label doesn't always translate(digest) into energy your body utilizes and certain calories will get utilized different ways.


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## Merkaba (Nov 22, 2011)

TooOld said:


> Just trying to understand this concept which quite frankly makes no sense to me. I hear it mentioned many times on this forum and have read quite allot about the opinions & controversy surrounding this concept. Note that I'm not talking about forums (bro science) but actual books and lectures.
> I've read some of Lyle McDonalds stuff and unless I've missed something he rarely mentions insulin interaction. Talks about Carbs and fats stored as fats but doesn't explain exactly why. Only states "there are studies"...what studies?
> 
> What am I missing here? Why does this calories in calories out stuff sound like a bunch of bunk to me?
> ...



When you say you gain fat how are you measuring this to know that you're not gaining extra water weight? If you're jumping on and off of the scale then forget it.  If your calories are the same and carbs are causing you to gain weight it's simply water.


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## ThreeGigs (Nov 22, 2011)

TooOld said:


> I can eat protein all day long, along with moderate fats and not get fat. Also, if I eat only a moderate amount of carbs with the same amount of fats and less protein I'll gain fat given my activity level stays the same?



Your intestines can't absorb protein anywhere near as quickly or efficiently as carbs. If you're replacing some of your protein with carbs and gaining weight, that's screaming to me that some of that protein you *thought* you were digesting is ending up in your toilet. My best guess to the most protein we can digest and absorb is about 250 grams a day, give or take. If you were eating more than that and counting those calories, you may not have gotten those calories.

And what Merkaba said, too. If you're low-carbing, then a carb-up will replenish muscle glycogen and cause you to hold water weight.


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## TooOld (Nov 23, 2011)

Muscle glycogen gets replaced regardless of carb intake.

Water weight? really? Obese people on high carb diets are all water? Interesting.

next...


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## Kenny Croxdale (Nov 23, 2011)

TooOld said:


> Just trying to understand this concept which quite frankly makes no sense to me. I hear it mentioned many times on this forum and have read quite allot about the opinions & controversy surrounding this concept. Note that I'm not talking about forums (bro science) but actual books and lectures.
> I've read some of Lyle McDonalds stuff and unless I've missed something he rarely mentions insulin interaction. Talks about Carbs and fats stored as fats but doesn't explain exactly why. Only states "there are studies"...what studies?



*Calories *

Calories are certainly a part of the weight loss equation.  

However, as you mentioned insulin is another part of the equation. 

*"Insulin is a Fat Maker, Glucagon is a Fat Taker." *Jay Robb

Insulin is a very anabolic (muscle building) hormone.  It build muscle.  

*The Dark Side of Insulin*

Insulin also promotes fat storage. 

Simple sugars spike insulin levels.  When insulin levels are elevated, one of the things that occurs is that body fat is being made.  

Also, insulin shut down the fat burning process.  That has a double impact.  

Not only are you storing fat, you body is unable to burn it.  

*Insulin The Muscle Maker*

One of the exceptions to elevated insulin levels is in your post workout beverage/meal.  

During this "Window of Opportunity" insulin shuttle's nutrients back to the muscle.  It repairs and increases muscle mass. 

During your Post Work beverage/meal very little if any fat is stored on the body.  

Insulin Manipulation

Thus, what you want to do is to spike insulin after your workout to build muscle.  

You want to minimize insulin the rest of the day.  Doing so, insures that you are not adding body fat or minimally adding it. 

*Glucagon*

Glucagon is the counter hormone to insulin.  

*See Saw Effect*

When insulin levels are low, glucagon levels are high and vise versa.  

*Glucagon The Fat Taker. *

One of the things glucagon does is use body fat for fuel.  

High carbohydrate diet that are high in simple sugars (high glyceimc index foods) trigger the release of insulin.  

Thus, by consuming low carbohudrate meals of complex carbohydrates, you minimize insulin release and maximize glucagon release.  



TooOld said:


> What am I missing here? Why does this calories in calories out stuff sound like a bunch of bunk to me?
> I can eat protein all day long, along with moderate fats and not get fat. Also, if I eat only a moderate amount of carbs with the same amount of fats and less protein I'll gain fat given my activity level stays the same?
> Am i an anomaly or does this calories in calories out thing only apply to some but not others?



*Not Missing Anything*

As I noted in the information above, you observations are correct.  

*Calories Still Count*

Calories still play a role in the weight/fat gain equation.  

*All Calorie Are NOT The Same*

As you noted, proteins, fats and carbodhyrae calories are different in how the body reacts to them. 

*All Carbohydrate Calories Are NOT The Same*

The Glycemic Index demonstrates the difference in insulin release between specific carbohydrates.

*Insulin Index*

The Insulin Index is another barometer of food that trigger insulin release.  

What interesting about the insulin index is that it also includes proteins and fats.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## TooOld (Nov 23, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> *Calories *
> 
> Calories are certainly a part of the weight loss equation.
> 
> ...



 Right on!


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## Merkaba (Nov 23, 2011)

TooOld said:


> Muscle glycogen gets replaced regardless of carb intake.
> 
> Water weight? really? Obese people on high carb diets are all water? Interesting.
> 
> next...



Next?  Well first, answer the question. How are you measuring?  Are you measuring fat gain or weight gain?  You said you gained fat.  I said that if you are measuring that on a scale you could be (and probably are) totally wrong.  If you're measuring fat gain, how are you doing it?  

If you cut carbs you're pretty much guaranteed a weight loss.  Yes glycogen gets replaced but at a much slower rate than if you ate a typical diet. And if you're doing a workout and diet geared for glycogen depletion the muscles and liver never get "fully reloaded" This is the keystone of ckd,tkd, etc.  

If you add the carbs back in you're almost guaranteed a weight gain depending on what you ate, how much, etc.  This is why Lyle tells people to expect, on a ckd or tkd approach, weight scale readings that undulate but if done properly should still be resulting in about a 1lb or so a week of loss, even after gaining back 5 on the weekend.  I know this from first hand experience as well.  

Obese people on high carb diets are obese because they ate too much, barring disease or malfunction. They did this for so long that they probably created a malfunction or disease.  That's an accumulative effect.  From any given point, the scale will move for only a couple of reasons.  That's my point.  Not how they got there.  If you're obese you probably have CREATED a malfunction or disease,i.e. low insulin sensitivity or diabetes, that causes a skewing of metabolic process to not be in the favor of fat loss.  But at the end of the day, 2000 calories is 2000 calories, and there's only two things that will happen with it, based on the law of opposites.  It will be stored as potential energy or burned.  Basic conservation.  The issue is has there been a malfunction or disease created.  Are obese people water weight?  Hell yes a ton of it!  How do you think an obese person can lose 10 to 20lbs in a week?  You think they are burning 30,000, 70,000 extra calories?  Slightly different reasons and mechanisms, but largely water.

The law of conservation of energy is part of the reason why i think Lyle just blows over ideas about available research because noone seems to be interested in the things that truly matter or that are ketogenic specific, at least this is what he hints at in some of his material about ketogenics.  As he mentioned, no we're not completely closed systems, but still.  Our bodies are either storing or burning the energy.  Skewing hormones is trying to direct the traffic.  Specific work protocols or nutritional protocols is our attempt at skewing hormones and directing traffic.  

So many clients and people in general are running like 2000 calorie days and can't realize why they aren't losing weight or why they gained 3 lbs over the weekend, or why they "gain fat"....this is what I wanted to shed light on.


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## TooOld (Nov 28, 2011)

Merkaba said:


> Next?  Well first, answer the question. How are you measuring?  Are you measuring fat gain or weight gain?  You said you gained fat.  I said that if you are measuring that on a scale you could be (and probably are) totally wrong.  If you're measuring fat gain, how are you doing it?



I used no weight scale.



Merkaba said:


> If you cut carbs you're pretty much guaranteed a weight loss.  Yes  glycogen gets replaced but at a much slower rate than if you ate a  typical diet. And if you're doing a workout and diet geared for glycogen  depletion the muscles and liver never get "fully reloaded" This is the  keystone of ckd,tkd, etc.



I agree you'll lose fat, not so much "weight".



Merkaba said:


> Obese people on high carb diets are obese because they ate too much,  barring disease or malfunction. They did this for so long that they  probably created a malfunction or disease.  That's an accumulative  effect.  From any given point, the scale will move for only a couple of  reasons.  That's my point.  Not how they got there.  If you're obese you  probably have CREATED a malfunction or disease,i.e. low insulin  sensitivity or diabetes, that causes a skewing of metabolic process to  not be in the favor of fat loss.  But at the end of the day, 2000  calories is 2000 calories, and there's only two things that will happen  with it, based on the law of opposites.  It will be stored as potential  energy or burned.  Basic conservation.  The issue is has there been a  malfunction or disease created.  Are obese people water weight?  Hell  yes a ton of it!  How do you think an obese person can lose 10 to 20lbs  in a week?  You think they are burning 30,000, 70,000 extra calories?   Slightly different reasons and mechanisms, but largely water.



People don't become obese by eating too much, they eat too much because they are becoming obese.
The exception might be a bodybuilder who intentionally stuffs his or her face to put on mass expecting to gain some fat.
An average person on a carb rich diet, day in and day out will have most of their carb intake shuttled into fat storage by insulin to control blood glucose levels. Over time they gain fat, become insulin resistant, lepin resistant and so it goes...
Protein and fats don't do this, only refined carbs, sugars and such.
I know this is a concept most closed mind people can't grasp, especially those who think simple calorie restriction actually works long term which has been proven not too.
Food selection is in, calorie counting is out.
Anyway...good luck with your "calories in , calories out" & it's "all about calories" propaganda. Most noobs looking to look better by dropping a few pounds will interpret it incorrectly and fall into the typical calorie restricting diet & it's yo-yo diet syndrome of losing a few pounds only to gain it back and more later.

I'm done beating this what should be a dead horse.


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## Chubby (Nov 29, 2011)

What happens if I eat 300 minus calories but my omega 6 and 3 are not balanced?  Can I still lose fat?


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## squigader (Nov 29, 2011)

Chubby said:


> What happens if I eat 300 minus calories but my omega 6 and 3 are not balanced?  Can I still lose fat?



Yes. Make sure you're exercising though at least 3x a week though to retain muscle.


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## TooOld (Nov 30, 2011)

Typical forum diet guru response.

I would ask; What are your macros?
How much sleep do you get? (yes the amount of sleep can effect weight loss, it's been proven)
How's your genetics? Are you predisposed to get fat consuming a little carbohydrates, a moderate amount... (how else is it explained that some people can eat as much as they want, carbs or otherwise and still remain thin?)
How's your digestive enzymes?
Are you sedentary? Any resistance training involved that might influence nutrient partitioning?
There's more questions I'd have but can't think of them at the moment.
Then after getting answers I'd say: "I'm really not qualified to say but my best guess is..."


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