# AM vs PM training and starting strength!



## powerclean (Feb 9, 2012)

i think i read somewhere that training early close to when you wake up when you only have one meal etc is detrimental to strength and hormone levels will not be as peaked as they can be later on?

I was planning to train squats in the early morning and everything else like bench, deadlift etc is he evening. 

My only problem is when i start to make PR's in the program and if i did not split up the session in two and do squats in he early morning and rest in the evening i could very well be training as long as 1.30 to 2 hours at a time which im sure will be redundant for muscle growth due to cortisol levels skyrocketing and test levels dropping... what would be the best option?


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## bjg (Feb 9, 2012)

it does not matter when you train that much whatever suits you is good.
testosterone levels are higher in the morning and you will be better rested but early morning workouts require longer and careful warm up.
night or afternoon workouts are good, you will be ready to lift in few minutes...that if you are not tired from work.
so each has advantages and disadvantages but really it does not matter much as far as results.
my favorite time is 11 am or 4 pm.


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## sassy69 (Feb 9, 2012)

I've done both - I MUCH prefer training after work. It takes me too long to wake up in the morning & really be able to appreciate the relaxation aspect of training - for me its a way to wind down from the stuff I had to do during the day / at work, and I can freely focus on my training for as long as I want and w/ the intensity that I want, instead of having to haul ass thru the workout and then haul ass getting ready for work, and then hauling ass to work.

But I know lots of people who thrive on early AM training. I'm just not one of them.

As mentioned, just like diet or training split - the best one is the one that you can stick with or the one that fits best into your existing lifestyle.


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## powerclean (Feb 9, 2012)

so what are your views on training 1.30 to 2 hours? especially with regard to cortisol and testosterone?


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## sassy69 (Feb 9, 2012)

powerclean said:


> so what are your views on training 1.30 to 2 hours? especially with regard to cortisol and testosterone?



I personally train around 40-90 minutes, depending on the muscle groups, plus 30-60 min cardio.


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## ckcrown84 (Feb 9, 2012)

I don't know much about the science behind early / late training but here is my bro-science haha

1) early morning training would be inferior being that your body is in a nutrient deprived state.
2) afternoon / evening training would give your body time to recover from the night of being nutrient deprived, you would not be drowsy (very subjective here) and your body has had time to recover / replenish nutrient stores.


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## ckcrown84 (Feb 9, 2012)

powerclean said:


> so what are your views on training 1.30 to 2 hours? especially with regard to cortisol and testosterone?



I think two hours is too much, if you need that much time to train (do to cardio + weight training) then I advise working out twice a day.

one hour to hour and a half is more than sufficient time to get a great workout in. 
So do an hour twice a day bud. Eat properly before and after working out


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## powerclean (Feb 9, 2012)

yeah thats the thing i would much rather cap workout to an hour to and hour and a half but like i said the program starting strength might very well need to be trained 1.30 to 2 hours eventually as i need to keep the weight the same on every set, sets across is the technical term i believe....

is there anything i can have during the session that will definitely blunt cortisol?

this is the workout 

  Workout A  
  squats  
  bench  
  deadlift  

  Workout B  
  squats  
  press  
  power clean  

  all 3x5 except deadlift is 1x5 and powerclean is 5x3  and two or three accessories  
  the weight needs to be the same for all sets hence why you will need  to take long brakes in between sets + all the warmups = 1.30 to 2 hour  session


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## bigbenj (Feb 9, 2012)

I used to train in the afternoon, but because of other factors, I now train in the morning. I honestly feel like it just took my body a little getting used to, and once I finally hit my groove, I haven't seen a difference. Strength feels the same, as does recovery, and gains. I make sure to give myself some time to wake up, get the neurons in my brain firing, chug some coffee, and its all good.


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## bjg (Feb 10, 2012)

it takes me 30mns to 90 minutes maximum (one muscle vs 3 muscle groups) . on long workouts like 90 minutes i don't do cardio .  on shorter workouts i do 20-25 mns jogging for cardio or 45 mns fast walking if i have a partner to walk with.
you should come out of the gym feeling fresh and pumped, not beat up (except for legs day )


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## Powermaster (Feb 10, 2012)

powerclean said:


> is there anything i can have during the session that will definitely blunt cortisol?



In a word: No

Cortisol is a natural stress responder. To control it you'll need to shorten your workouts and supply proper post workout nutrition.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Feb 10, 2012)

powerclean said:


> yeah thats the thing i would much rather cap workout to an hour to and hour and a half but like i said the program starting strength might very well need to be trained 1.30 to 2 hours eventually as i need to keep the weight the same on every set, sets across is the technical term i believe....



*An Hour Or Less*

Anything over an hour is fruitless.  You end up doing more harm than good. 

*Bulgarians*

The Bulgarians proved the value of short high intensity training sessions.  

*"You can train hard or long but NOT both." Gironda*

There is an inverse relationship with time and intensity.  As your training time goes up, you intensity dramatically drops.  

And INTENSITY is the big key to growth. 



powerclean said:


> is there anything i can have during the session that will definitely blunt cortisol?



*Cortisol Part of the Healing Process*

Cortisol is secreted post workout to help with the healing process, such as decreasing inflamation.  

Blunting cortisol post workout is counter productive.  

Excessive Cortisol

One of the biggest problems with training sessions that last over an hour is that cortisol escalates to excessively high levels.  

High cortisol levels then do more harm that good.  

*Maintaining Good Cortisol Levels*

The BEST way of insuring that your body does NOT produce excessively high levels of cortisol is to keep you training session to an hour or less. 

The further past an hour you go, the greater your cortisol levels become.  

*High Post Workout Cortosol Levels = Less Strength/Size Increases*

A training program should be designed to stimulate growth, NOT to annihilate it. 

Kenny Croxdale


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## carmineb (Feb 10, 2012)

if yo are training natural, (as oppossed to using PH or AAS or ancillaries), then you go with teh natural flow of hormonal levels in your body if you want to peak the experience.  I guess mental readiness is super important too so if mornings are tough, go later.  I ahve done mornings and evenings and get good workouts (subjectively) from both.  

When I do train in mornings (in the past) I did so fasted and I was on a slimdown program  When I train for mass, unless I wake at 6 am to get protein and stuff into me before a workout, I just wait til later in day.

I think you will get as many answers as there are individuals and setting aside best strategy based on hormonal levels, I think if your mind is ready, you train harder....

What I have been doing recently is spiking my insulin right before a workout thruout it and then imediately afterwards.  the insulin spike witht he GH release assists in shuttling nutrients to muscles as well as you have the raw materials necessary for IGF-1 production (gh and insulin present).  So if I were doing an earmy morning workout, it would be any cardio plus break out a smaller muscle group or a pump session elsewhere and save the insulin spike for the main workout later.


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## powerclean (Feb 10, 2012)

kenny croxdale do you or anyone else have any scientific evidence or case studies to back up claims about training past the hour? would be interested


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## Kenny Croxdale (Feb 11, 2012)

powerclean said:


> kenny croxdale do you or anyone else have any scientific evidence or case studies to back up claims about training past the hour? would be interested



*Cortisol The Stress Hormone*

As we know, cortisol is produced by stress.  There are various forms of stress, exercise being one.  

*The Effects of Stress on Exercise*

"According to Andrew Fry, Ph.D., many people continue to increase both volume and intensity of exercise as they progress, although _the body cannot adapt to this over a long period of time._  According to Fry, _the testosterone:cortisol ratio, which is a marker of an individual???s anabolic status and recover ability, decreases as exercise volume increases"_.

*Volume*

As you stated, it takes you about 2 hours to finish your program.  That because of the volume.  You CANNOT get the work done in less than 90 minutes.  

The longer you place the body under stress, the greater the amount of cortisol released.  The greater the amount of cortisol that is released, the longer it take the body to recover. 

*Boiling Water*

Think of cortisol as boliing water.  The hotter the water becomes, the LONGER it takes to cool down.  The same occurs with eleveted cortisol levels.  

*Gironda's Prolific Statement*

_"You cannot train both long and hard." _ 

"Fry also states, as intensity of exercise goes up, exercise volume must go down, and vice versa."

*PAULA OWENS ~ Change Your Body. Transform Your Life.: ARE YOU ADDICTED TO EXERCISE? OVERTRAINING?*

Research has shown that there is a time element involved in Maximining Testosteron Production and Mimimizing Cortisol Release.  

"Testosterone levels peak after approximately 15 minutes of training and begin to level off after 30-45 minutes. Cortisol levels (the catabolic, growth-inhibiting, stress hormone) start rising after 30-40 minutes and anabolic levels (growth hormones) decrease."

*Bulgarian Olympic Lifters*

The Bulgarian Olympic Lifters produced some of the worlds strongest athletes due to their training methods.  

*The LESS Than One Hour Rule*

The Bulgarian Olympic Coaches realized they could increase the strength of their lifters by implementing short (20-45 minute), highly intense training sessions.  

By doing so, the Bulgarian Olympic Lifters elicited a greater anabolic hormonal effect (testosterone, Insulin, human growh hormone, etc) while minimizing the cababolic hormones (such as cortisol).  

*Nutrient Timing*

One of the most effective method of suppressing controling cortisol levels during a workout is your: Pre Workout, Peri (during) Workout and Post Workout Beverage.  

As the article notes, Dr John Ivy provides you with a "Cocktail" to enhance anabolic hormones while minimizing catabolic hormones. 

*2 + 2 = 5!*

_"The whole is GREATER than the sum of it parts."_

Combining a well written/executed strength training program with a good nutrition program amounts to adding 2 plus 2 and getting 5.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## bjg (Feb 11, 2012)

i just listen to my body ...and always leave the gym pumped and fresh ..so i guess you have to be in tune with your body


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## fufu (Feb 11, 2012)

I've had positive results training consistently in the AM as well as the PM.

Short answer: it doesn't matter.

Train when you can.


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## fufu (Feb 11, 2012)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> *An Hour Or Less*
> 
> Anything over an hour is fruitless.  You end up doing more harm than good.




Say what? 

This simply is not true. 

Short training sessions can work, and so can long ones. It all depends on how the entire program is put together.

I definitely lean on a shorter more intense training session, but saying anything over an hour is fruitless is a gross generalization.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Feb 12, 2012)

fufu said:


> Say what?
> 
> This simply is not true.
> 
> ...



Good point.  I overshot the runway on that.  However, short intenses sessions supercede long sessions.  

Too many individuals overtrain because they believe if an hour is good, two hours is better. 

Kenny Croxdale


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## 200+ (Feb 12, 2012)

I train mid day at lunch break.  I have the most energy and focus mid day


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## gtbmed (Feb 12, 2012)

It takes you 90 minutes or more to do starting strength?

Workout A is 7 sets of 5. That's almost 13 minutes for each individual set.  Even if you take 20 minute breaks between exercises you'd have have more than 7 minutes for each set...

I could see if you were doing tons of sets, but if you're doing 7-11 sets that seems excessive to me.


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## Sheer (Feb 12, 2012)

I'm used to training in the afternoon.


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## caaraa (Feb 13, 2012)

kenny  croxdale do you or anyone else have any scientific evidence or case  studies to back up claims about training past the hour?


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## powerclean (Feb 13, 2012)

gtbmed said:


> It takes you 90 minutes or more to do starting strength?
> 
> Workout A is 7 sets of 5. That's almost 13 minutes for each individual set.  Even if you take 20 minute breaks between exercises you'd have have more than 7 minutes for each set...
> 
> I could see if you were doing tons of sets, but if you're doing 7-11 sets that seems excessive to me.



Workout A is
3x5 Squat:After warmups lets say an average of 5 minutes rest in between sets so that's 15 mins
3x5 Bench press:three warmups = 6 mins+ another 15 mins for rest in between and the actual set= a total of 20 mins
1x5 deadlift: three warmups=10 mins including the set
2x8_12 reps of dips =5 mins

Total= 50 minutes rounded up an 60 mins and maybe more when the weights start getting heavy

workout B is
3x5 squat: 15 mins
3x5 Press: including warmup 20 mins
5x3 power clean: looking at a good 30 minutes i estimate
3x5  5_12 reps of chinups:8 mins

(then a potential 2 sets of curls only on friday)

total= rounded off to 75 -90 minutes

i was overestimating the time of workouts but when the weights do start to get heavy time will definitely increase...


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## fufu (Feb 13, 2012)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> Good point.  I overshot the runway on that.  However, short intenses sessions supercede long sessions.
> 
> Too many individuals overtrain because they believe if an hour is good, two hours is better.
> 
> Kenny Croxdale



I mostly agree with that. Cut the fluff, lift hard and heavy and get out of the gym.


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## ripsid (Feb 15, 2012)

i think ti's both OK to train in the AM or PM,i just care about how to train.


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