# Is 15-20mins of light-moderat cardio on rest days bad if in a toning period?



## Johnnny (May 22, 2004)

I was wondering if any of you thought 15-20mins of light-moderat cardio on rest days bad if in a cutting period?

I'm toning up & I was just wondering if this would interfear with recovery if done on rest days with no lifting of any kind?

My current routine is 4 days a week hitting each body part once a week very intensely & hard. I do 15-20mins of light-moderate paced cardio after each lifting period.

Do you think that if I did my cardio in the manner mentioned above would interfear with my body's capability to recover & cause me to be more tired every day? Or would it just help me with my cutting period? Thanks.


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## P-funk (May 22, 2004)

Why don't you ask the trainer at your gym with the great physique who used to do steroids but now is not as hard or ripped and is now all natrual??


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## aztecwolf (May 22, 2004)

15-20 minutes of light cardio really won't do much for you except perhaps help you in a calorie deficit, which will help you lose weight


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## Johnnny (May 22, 2004)

aztecwolf I do usually do light-moderate-heavy I change it up to surprise the body cardio which I find is good for burning fat. But my question was would what I'm doing interfear with my body's recovery from the lifting? I am in a cutting period so shouldn't I increase my amount of cardio along with my good diet? Or should I just do my cardio on training days & rest on off days from lifting?

P-funk man you got a bad attitude. You didn't have to write that, it was unnecessary. But since you gave the suggestion, I think I will get his opinion since you don't have any useful information to add. This is a totally different thread & was uncalled for.


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## TaPo31 (May 22, 2004)

I would say that you will be fine doing light cardio on off days, depending on how many off days a week you have of course.


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## Johnnny (May 22, 2004)

TaPo31 I have now 3 days off a week. So you don't think doing cardio from a moderate pace or so 6 days a week is too much?
Do you think cardio only 4 times a week would be enough to cut up in a descent time period? Or should I do my 15-20mins of moderate cardio (treadmill) 5-6 days a week? 

I just don't want to burn myself out physically even though I'm not doing 30+mins of cardio. I would never do more than 20mins.


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## TaPo31 (May 22, 2004)

I personally don't feel that 5-6 days/week is too much given that you are on a good diet and getting adequate sleep.  I am currently on a 4 days/week split with GoPro's P/RR/S routine and I do cardio on two of my off days in addition to 2-3 of my on days.  I like to alternate between a HIIT training for 20-25 mins and 30-40 mins at a slower pace.  I feel that this keeps my body guessing and it seems to be working fairly well so far.


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## Johnnny (May 22, 2004)

TaPo31 30-40 mins? Dayamn dude. I've always been told whether it's a slow pace or a fast pace that more than 20mins of cardio a session even during cutting periods as any more cardio than that would start becoming catabolic. & what good are cuts if you don't have the muscle?


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## TaPo31 (May 22, 2004)

It's my opinion, and I certainly could be wrong, that as long as you are consuming glutamine and BCAAs or some whey protein prior to doing the cardio, you can avoid catabolism for upwards of 30-40 mins.


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## P-funk (May 23, 2004)

> P-funk man you got a bad attitude. You didn't have to write that, it was unnecessary. But since you gave the suggestion, I think I will get his opinion since you don't have any useful information to add. This is a totally different thread & was uncalled for.



LOL, relax man, I wasn't being serious.  I just had to put that in there for comical reasons.


To answer your question.  Why light cardio??  If it is an off day then active rest is great.  Go out, walk around, do some yard work, etc....but don't make it a point to go to the gym just to do "light cardio".  IMO you are wasting your time.  If you want to go and do cardio I recommend doing some sprints followed by some moderate intensity cardio.


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## Johnnny (May 23, 2004)

P-funk 





> sprints followed by some moderate intensity cardio.



This is usually what I do on the treadmill. I do about 15-17mins, usually 5 or 6 15second sprints in that time along with 1-2mins at a time of jogging, followed by 1-2mins of heavy walking & then I start the cycle again with a sprint.

But sometimes if I feel tired I will just do 20mins of heavy walking on the treadmill at a 3.5-4.0 speed on the treadmill. Which I find also does a good job of burning fat. This was the type of cardio I was wondering about doing on rest days or should I just rest?


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## Johnnny (May 23, 2004)

TaPo31 Thanks for the info, but for me 30+mins is way too much.


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## CowPimp (May 23, 2004)

I haven't had problems doing 30 minutes of cardio on two of my off days while still gaining mass.  As long as I eat 30-45 minutes before the jog, and ready some oats and protein shakes for when I return, my gains don't seem to be hindered.


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## Johnnny (May 23, 2004)

I guess, but with my new routine, I'll probably just do cardio on one of my days off & rest the others.


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## Arnold (May 23, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by P-funk *_
> To answer your question.  Why light cardio??  If it is an off day then active rest is great.  Go out, walk around, do some yard work, etc....but don't make it a point to go to the gym just to do "light cardio".  IMO you are wasting your time.  If you want to go and do cardio I recommend doing some sprints followed by some moderate intensity cardio.



I agree with this 100%, I like to take leisure walks.


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## aztecwolf (May 23, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Robert DiMaggio *_
> I agree with this 100%, I like to take leisure walks.


Same here, or leisure bike rides, it is quite easy when you are 1/2 a mile or so from the beach.
I believe cardio is vital to any training program, the benefits are tenfold, it is true that if you start trying to do to much then it might hinder your results in the gym (happened to me when i was running 5 or so miles a day, surfing, and trying to lift weights, in the same day, on a very shitty low cal diet).  But light stuff on your non-lifting days will increase your bloodflow through your system helping you with recovery.  I even like doin a little cariod on my lifting days, to warmup, then cool down.


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## Johnnny (May 23, 2004)

aztecwolf I always do cardio on lifting days after the lifting though.


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## TaPo31 (May 23, 2004)

Its my opinion that if you are trying to burn fat, there are two times to do cardio in order to see optimal results, either first thing in the morning or immediately after lifting.  Those are the two times when your glycogen stores will be depleted and your body can use more fat as energy.


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## Johnnny (May 24, 2004)

TaPo31 yeah I've heard that to about 1st thing in the morning. But I hope you don't do it on an empty stomach. That is very unhealthy. It puts your body into a certain state I forget exactly what it's called, but you will eventually start burning tissue & muscle instead of fat. You will eventually burn out as well.
Your body does need fuel to burn fat. I'm reading a book for my certification course that I'm probably going to take & I'm reading about this subject right now.


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## P-funk (May 24, 2004)

I do my cardio on an empty stomach, first thing in the AM, whenver I can.


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## Johnnny (May 24, 2004)

P-funk sorry to hear that. You are putting your body into an unhealthy state & you will be not only burning some fat if at all, but you'll be burning mostly tissue & muscle mass. Your body needs fuel to burn fat. This is one topic I'm reading about right now in my course book.


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## TaPo31 (May 24, 2004)

"TaPo31 yeah I've heard that to about 1st thing in the morning. But I hope you don't do it on an empty stomach. That is very unhealthy. It puts your body into a certain state I forget exactly what it's called, but you will eventually start burning tissue & muscle instead of fat. You will eventually burn out as well.
Your body does need fuel to burn fat. I'm reading a book for my certification course that I'm probably going to take & I'm reading about this subject right now."


I believe that state to which you are referring is known as a catabolic state.  Your body will typically be in a catabolic state after fasting all night, so I agree that you need something first thing in the morning even before cardio.  That being said, I also believe that what you consume should be either 10-15 grams of zero carb whey or, as I do, 5-10 g of both BCAAs and glutamine.  These seems to help reverse the catabolic state that I encounter as I sleep and allows me to burn as much fat as possible with little muscle loss.


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## P-funk (May 24, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> P-funk sorry to hear that. You are putting your body into an unhealthy state & you will be not only burning some fat if at all, but you'll be burning mostly tissue & muscle mass. Your body needs fuel to burn fat. This is one topic I'm reading about right now in my course book.




For every study that you show me that states it is not effective i can show you two more that say it is and vice versa.  We can go back and forth.  I do take anhydrous caffeine before I do it to try and release some free fatty acids in the blood stream to be used for energy.   The main reson that I feel it works is because I have tried it both ways and this works for me.  I know my body pretty darn well.


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## Johnnny (May 24, 2004)

P-funk Like I said I've read this subject written in books for the personal certification courses.

Put it this way, would your car be able to go anywhere without gas? No, same goes for your body. Without fuel, your body can't function properly & if you attempt to train without fuel such as some carbs & protein, you will put your body in a state of:

Ketosis: Ketosis is defined as the buildup of ketones in the bloodstream and basically it is a state when the body produces ketones for fuel, more specifically when blood ketone concentration is higher than glucose concentration. Ketones are byproducts of fat metabolism and are an alternative source of fuel for the brain, heart, skeletal muscle and other oxygen requiring tissues to utilize in times of starvation, carb restriction or prolonged exercise. There are two types of ketones and they are beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate. When you first get into ketosis the ketones will provide about 75% of your total energy to the brain, heart, and skeletal muscle. After 1-2 weeks the brain will completely adapt to using ketones as fuel, and you will no longer have problems with mental acuity due to glucose depletion (this is a "side effect", as explained later) if you ever experience this at all. Low insulin levels also increase resting levels of growth hormones, catecholamines, and glucocorticoids that further increase fat burning.


How do I get into ketosis?:As mentioned above ketosis can occur during starvation, carb restriction, or prolonged exercise. Glucagon, the antagonistic hormone to insulin is what ultimately determines if and how much ketones are produced. When insulin is low, glucagon is high, when insulin is almost zero, glucagon is peaked, when glucagon is peaked, fat burning is kicked in high gear and fat storage is halted. In the liver glucagon is responsible for taking fatty acids away from fat stores and toward fat burning for energy. Glucagon is also responsible for stimulating lipase that in turn releases already stored fat, and both of these factors combined equals fat loss and higher energy levels. So, the goal is clear: glucagon up, insulin down. How do you keep insulin at bottom line levels? Carb restriction (less than 30g/day), and the ketogenic diet takes it's place in the fat loss circle.


How do I know when I'm in ketosis?:If you restrict carbs and eat adequate fat (1.5g per 1g of protein) you will undoubtedly get into ketosis within at most 4 days. But, to be sure there are two primary methods: glucometer, ketostix. Glucometers measure the amount of circulating blood glucose, in order to get into ketosis blood glucose levels must fall to about 50-60mg/dl and by using a glucometer we can establish whether or not we are at this level, and whether or not we are in ketosis. When in ketosis excess ketones are excreted in the urine, and by using ketostix to measure the ketone content of your pee you can determine if the body is producing extra ketones, and whether or not you are in ketosis. Either method works fine, most prefer ketostix (which can be picked up at a local drug store) due to convenience.


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## CowPimp (May 24, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> Ketones are byproducts of fat metabolism and are an alternative source of fuel for the brain, heart, skeletal muscle and other oxygen requiring tissues to utilize in times of starvation, carb restriction or prolonged exercise.



That is why this method works.  I'm not saying that is the best way to go, but I certainly don't disagree with the fact that it works.  Thousands of people use this method with great success.  It's hard to argue with successful results.

Personally, I don't like to do cardio unless I have had some food in the last hour or so, but I understand the reason why people do it that way.  I do cardio for the health benefits such as increased endurance, better overall physical conditioning, increased basal metabolism, stronger immune system, increased blood volume, etc.  I could care less about the fat loss.


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## P-funk (May 25, 2004)

> P-funk Like I said I've read this subject written in books for the personal certification courses



Good for you.   Don't ASSume that I am not well read on the subject.  I have read a lot on this so the last thing I need is for you to give me a bunch of crap on ketosis written in some shit ass personal training manuel.




> How do I know when I'm in ketosis?:If you restrict carbs and eat adequate fat (1.5g per 1g of protein) you will undoubtedly get into ketosis within at most 4 days.



Reall???  that is not true at all.  there are more things that have to happen to get you into ketosis besides just eating 1g-1.5g of protein.  think about you fat intake??  how many carbs??  Also, some people have a harder time getting into ketosis.  You can't say..."Oh, I restrict my carbs and eat protein and in 4 days I'll be in ketosis."  It isn't that easy my freind.  By some lypolysis sticks and see if you can get yourself into ketosis or not.  That will take the guess work out of it for you.  also, ketosis is not neccessary fro weight/fat loss....otherwise peopel wouldn't lose weight on calorie restriced diets that don't limit carbs.


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## Johnnny (May 25, 2004)

P-funk actually I found this information on-line. & there have been several sites providing exactly the same information. So I think they know a few things more than you or I even though I'm reading up on the subject.

I've asked a few local bodybuilders about doing cardio & they've said doing it 1st thing in the morning on an empty stomach is the worst time & thing you could do to your body. With no food especially complex carbs, at this point you're burning tissue & valueable muscle mass instead of fat. Now do you really want to lose valueable muscle? I think not as none of us do.

These bodybuilders even said that if your body doesn't have fuel, it won't function properly. & they compared it to a car without gas that won't go anywhere. Same principle.

At one point I tried this doing 15mins of 15 second sprints 1st thing in the morning on an empty stomach & in less than 2 weeks I was beginning to burn out. The first 4 sessions were fine, but even though I was eating my other 6 meals a day, I was beginning to feel dizzy & tired while doing the cardio in the morning on an empty stomach. So that's when I stopped.

But if you want to put yourself in a state of ketosis, than it's your perogative. You'll be losing muscle while I'll be gaining muscle & losing fat.


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## Yanick (May 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> I've asked a few local bodybuilders about doing cardio & they've said doing it 1st thing in the morning on an empty stomach is the worst time & thing you could do to your body. With no food especially complex carbs, at this point you're burning tissue & valueable muscle mass instead of fat. Now do you really want to lose valueable muscle? I think not as none of us do.



You are taking this way out of context bud.  Your body is always turning over protein (synthesizing and oxidating, at the same time) what determines muscle gain or loss is which way of the two were greater.  Your body can also use muscle and liver glycogen for fuel, which takes days or low carbing and depletion workouts to get rid of on top of which you have free fatty acids floating around in your blood stream (just like protein turnover, your body is always using fat and carbs as energy at the same time, however the balance is being shifted by various factors).



> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> These bodybuilders even said that if your body doesn't have fuel, it won't function properly. & they compared it to a car without gas that won't go anywhere. Same principle.



don't compare the human body to a car.  my left nut is infinitely more complex than the new Toyota Prius Hybrid. Make a 140 HP car perform the 150 HP worth of work and it will blow up...make the human body perform more work than it was designed/accustomed to and it will adapt and be able to perform that work...don't compare cars to humans.



> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> At one point I tried this doing 15mins of 15 second sprints 1st thing in the morning on an empty stomach & in less than 2 weeks I was beginning to burn out. The first 4 sessions were fine, but even though I was eating my other 6 meals a day, I was beginning to feel dizzy & tired while doing the cardio in the morning on an empty stomach. So that's when I stopped.



Thats irrelevant...we don't know what your approach was at that particular time.  Maybe with all of the sprints and weight training you were just overtraining yourself.  Not eating enough, under stress there could be a million reasons why you felt burnt out.



> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> But if you want to put yourself in a state of ketosis, than it's your perogative. You'll be losing muscle while I'll be gaining muscle & losing fat.



Take a look at his journal and pics...it doesn't seem to me that he is having too much trouble with muscle loss.


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## BlueCorsair (May 25, 2004)

Now I'm just confused.

We hear on one hand that morning pre-food cardio (HIIT or otherwise) is the best, and then we hear it'll eat your muscle.

It has to be one or the other. Speaking as an ecto who's cutting (go ahead and laugh) I can't afford to fuck this up 

I won't do HIIT after a workout - I find it's simply too much, and my metabolism gets ramped from the workout already. 

So - on an off day, can one do HIIT at any time, or is the early morning route still the best? I don't see how, but then again, I'm not an expert 

Can anyone answer this once and for all?


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## P-funk (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BlueCorsair *_
> Now I'm just confused.
> 
> We hear on one hand that morning pre-food cardio (HIIT or otherwise) is the best, and then we hear it'll eat your muscle.
> ...



Don't be confused, this is an age old debate, much like the one about the upper chest and incline presses.   For every study that he shows that says it doesn't work I can show one that says it does and back and forth so I wouldn't worry about it.  Also, the fact that I am taking 150-200mg of caffeine before I do the cardio changes things a lot as there is now FFAs in the blood stream to be used as fuel.  Even if I don;'t do that though, the intensity level of the sprints wil help to release FFAs so that they can provide energy.

Johnny, Ketosis is not neccessary for wieght loss however it is not a bad thing either.  All that means is that your body is using ketones (fat) for fuel.  This is much better than using muscle for energy so I don;'t know what the hell your argument is?


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## Johnnny (May 26, 2004)

Yanick well if you're going to do cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach, than have fun trying to build muscle as it will be eating away.


Ketosis is a bad thing & never said it was necessary for weight loss. For weight loss, your body needs fuel to burn fat. Like I've said already, without fuel your body will turn to protein & muscle tissue to supply the fuel. Therefore causing loss of valueable muscle & strength. Using caffeine makes it even worse on top of not eating. It will put your body it over drive.

From my experience & the knowledge of trainers & bodybuilders (both natural, & steroid users) cardio 1st thing in the morning on an empty stomach isn't recommended for the very reason that your body will turn to protein & muscle for energy not fat. It's common knowledge or at least is should be.

But I know certain ppl are set in their ways & there's no convincing them until they see it for themselves. Which I hope is sooner, rather than later.


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## BlueCorsair (May 26, 2004)

Out of curiosity, perhaps I missed it, what do you do P-funk - pre-food morning cardio, or only after lifting?

How about off days?


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## P-funk (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BlueCorsair *_
> Out of curiosity, perhaps I missed it, what do you do P-funk - pre-food morning cardio, or only after lifting?
> 
> How about off days?




If I don't do pre-food morning cardio then I do it after lifting.  I try to do my cardio first thing in the AM if I have time and don't have any early clients.  If not it is post workout.

what about on off days???  they are just that...OFFDAYS!!!  DO NOTHING!!!  REST!!


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## Mudge (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> Ketosis is a bad thing & never said it was necessary for weight loss.



How is this a bad thing? Its been argued that sedentary individuals should not do Atkins style diets but I see no reason to say its flat bad.


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## P-funk (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> How is this a bad thing? Its been argued that sedentary individuals should not do Atkins style diets but I see no reason to say its flat bad.




There is no point in arguing with him.  I am giving up.


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## gr81 (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by P-funk *_
> There is no point in arguing with him.  I am giving up.




Smartest post I have seen all week Patrick. I am done trying to agrue with this jackoff. He is an anal-retentive little know-it-all that asks people questions and then argues tooth and nail when they answer him. If you are so god damm smart screwball, Then don't ask our opinions!! Every single one of your threads ends up like this, jesus christ. Get a fuccin life and stop wasting valuable peoples time!!


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## Johnnny (May 26, 2004)

gr81 





> Smartest post I have seen all week Patrick. I am done trying to agrue with this jackoff. He is an anal-retentive little know-it-all that asks people questions and then argues tooth and nail when they answer him. If you are so god damm smart screwball, Then don't ask our opinions!! Every single one of your threads ends up like this, jesus christ. Get a fuccin life and stop wasting valuable peoples time!!



Personally you are the biggest jagoff I've ever seen. You act like you know everything & you never come to threads to help ppl or answer ppl's questions. You come to attack them in this case me. Again you prove that here as you haven't answered any the question of the thread.

As for answering my questions it has gotten way off topic. My question was the same as the thread's title. Would 15-20mins of light-moderate cardio on off days from lifting interfear with your body's recovery period from the previous days workout.

Somehow this thread turned into a thread about doing cardio 1st thing in the morning which is totally unhealthy & will eventually put your body into a state of ketosis which will start burning muscle tissue not fat.

I know what I'm talking about on this as I've been reading this stuff for awhile no including from some of Arnold's books who definetely knows what he's talking about.

Besides this is totally off topic from what my main question was. I didn't care who does what in the morning on an empty stomach, I only cared about cardio on off days from the gym interfearing from recovery period.

But since this subject came up, I had to informly correct ppl. 
I'm not trying to criticise you P-Funk, but as a personal trainer you should already know that it's not healthy to do weights or cardio on an empty stomach especially cardio for fat burning.

All I'm going to say is your body needs fuel to burn especially for fat burning.

I think Arnold knows what he's talking about as I've read some things about this in some books with Arnold's information.


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## PreMier (May 26, 2004)

Have you even seen P-funks pictures?  When you look like him, you KNOW what the hell your doing.  As for you... we will never know.


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## gr81 (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> But since this subject came up, I had to informly correct ppl.
> I'm not trying to criticise you P-Funk, but as a personal trainer you should already know that it's not healthy to do weights or cardio on an empty stomach especially cardio for fat burning.
> 
> ...




hey bro, I was just wondering, do you actually have any facts to back up your ridiculously off the wall claims. Please post some facts or studies of any kind from a credible reputable source thats backs up your point AND that disproves Patricks. If you can't do that then stop telling people that they are wrong over and over with no foundation. I know for a fact that Mudge, Pfunk, and Prince, and I all are educated and know a great deal of information on this and many other topics. So far I have not seen you post anything in any of your threads but your misguided opinion. Back up that mouth of yours and the junk comin our of it please. Arnolds theories are outdated and are not scientifically accurate, not by a long shot. Do you also have 2 seperate 4 hr training sessions like he does?  If you don't then why not, he's arnold, he must be correct about everything he has ever said in his life. Arnold knew alot for his time, but we are not in the 70'ss anymore, this is 2004 and you cannot argue with science..well at least most people couldn't anyways. You could argue with a brick wall.
by the way, you can way what you will about me, but I am respected here and you are not, so take that how you want.. I don't harass anyone but you b/c you have nothing positive to add here. I care not what you say 'bout me either. Keep on talkin, no one is listening..


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## Arnold (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> Yanick well if you're going to do cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach, than have fun trying to build muscle as it will be eating away.



I agree that doing morning cardio on an empty stomach puts your body in a severe catabolic state. And seeing that blood glucose levels are very low in the morning it's very possible that muscle tissue will be broken down in order for the body to get the glucose it needs for energy. If you're going to do it I highly recommend a "carb drink", like Cytomax be used to help prevent this.


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## Arnold (May 26, 2004)

so basically what I am saying is Johnnny has a valid point.


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## Johnnny (May 26, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio 





> I agree that doing morning cardio on an empty stomach puts your body in a severe catabolic state. And seeing that blood glucose levels are very low in the morning it's very possible that muscle tissue will be broken down in order for the body to get the glucose it needs for energy. If you're going to do it I highly recommend a "carb drink", like Cytomax be used to help prevent this.


Thank you

As for the carb drink suggestion, they'll probably say it will interfear with fat burning or something as they want to be on a completely empty stomach.

Personally I do my 15-20mins of 15 second sprints after my workout & I bring some beef & a oatmeal bar & eat it right away after my workout. Then I go home & shower & eat a skinless boneless chicken breast with a bit more oatmeal followed by 2 more meals consiting of protein & green vegetables.


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## tucker01 (May 27, 2004)

Plain and Simple do what works for you.  Everyone is different,  if you get better results from empty stomach cardio fine, if not that is also fine.

Experiment with different things and figure out what works.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio has already said 



> I agree that doing morning cardio on an empty stomach puts your body in a severe catabolic state. And seeing that blood glucose levels are very low in the morning it's very possible that muscle tissue will be broken down in order for the body to get the glucose it needs for energy. If you're going to do it I highly recommend a "carb drink", like Cytomax be used to help prevent this.



I personally think he knows what he is doing for many things, yet some still chose not to believe him or me.

If your goal is building muscle while staying lean, than doing cardio in this manner will not help you at all.

It isn't even healthy or that good of a procedure for ppl who need to lose fat as they'll be burning muscle tissue & protein if they do it this way not the fat they need to lose.

I wouldn't recommed giving clients this advice to help them lose weight. If they start getting sick, it's the trainers fault & then the client will come after you when they find out exactly what went wrong. B/c if they're someone who's never trained before they won't know any better.


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## P-funk (May 27, 2004)

Johnny Wrote:



> But since this subject came up, I had to informly correct ppl.  I'm not trying to criticise you P-Funk, but as a personal trainer you should already know that it's not healthy to do weights or cardio on an empty stomach especially cardio for fat burning.




If you aren't citisising me then what the hell are you doing?  calling me a dumbass??  If you were smart you would post a study that dispells what I am saying.  That is the best way to argue.  Here is a study that backs up my argument.  Like i said, this is an age old debate that you can't find a concrete answer to.  For every study you post defending yourself I can find one more that defends my point of view.  Like Ian said, see what works best for you.  The body is complicated and works differently for everyone.  If you want to argue/debate with me then fine but don't ever try and tell me that I am not doing my job properly or that I am not inorming people correctly.  I have not publicly bashed you in anyway....but keep it up and I may have to.


Energy metabolism during exercise at different time intervals following a meal.

Willcutts KF, Wilcox AR, Grunewald KK.

Department of Physical Education, Dance and Leisure Studies, Kansas State University, Manhattan 66506.

The objective of this study was to compare caloric expenditure and substrate utilization during exercise begun at different time intervals following a standard test meal or in the fasted state. Eight physically fit women (aged 21-27 years) participated in four separate exercise trials. In three trials, the subjects consumed a 940-kcal meal following an overnight fast and began exercising either 30, 60, or 90 min after the meal. In the other trial, the subjects did not consume any breakfast prior to exercising. Energy expenditure and substrate utilization were determined by indirect calorimetry during the last 23 min of a 30-min run on a treadmill at an average work load of 62% VO2max.  *There were no significant differences among trials when comparing the total caloric expenditures (range: 215-219 kcal). However, the subjects oxidized significantly more fat (94.3 kcal) when they exercised on an empty stomach than when they exercised 60 or 90 min after the meal (71.6 and 68.8 kcal, respectively) (P less than 0.05).* It was concluded that consumption of a meal prior to exercise does not increase the energy cost of the activity for physically fit women, but it does disrupt the pattern of substrate utilization, reducing the contribution of fat as an energy source.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

P-funk so I guess you don't believe Prince either than? I guess he has no credibility either eh?

Here is what Prince a.k.a Robert DiMaggio said? He agree's with me here is what he said



> I agree that doing morning cardio on an empty stomach puts your body in a severe catabolic state. And seeing that blood glucose levels are very low in the morning it's very possible that muscle tissue will be broken down in order for the body to get the glucose it needs for energy. If you're going to do it I highly recommend a "carb drink", like Cytomax be used to help prevent this.



So I guess none of you believe Prince either if you're not believing me. Oh well. 

If it were me I wouldn't be giving this advice to my clients cause if they get sick, they'll be pissed at me.


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## CowPimp (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> P-funk so I guess you don't believe Prince either than? I guess he has no credibility either eh?
> 
> Here is what Prince a.k.a Robert DiMaggio said? He agree's with me here is what he said
> ...



How are you going to argue with someone when they have already provided scientific and real world proof to backup their statements?  I'm not saying you don't have a valid point Johnnny.  I think you do.  However, P-Funk obviously knows what he is talking about as well. 

Personally, I can't handle doing anything before I eat.  P-Funk's method is not for me.  Does that mean that I think it's wrong or worthless?  No.  You have to stop looking at things as right or wrong in the context of training methods.  You have to start looking at them as effective for some and not effective for others.  Why don't you try out his method before you decide that it's "wrong?"


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

CowPimp I've tried that method before I knew it was unhealthy.
I started losing muscle size & strength & weight in just a couple of weeks & was starting to feel burnt out.

Most ppl I've known who've made the mistake of trying this method of no food 1st thing in the morning cardio end up with the same result as I had.

I so guess you still think Prince doesn't know what he's talking about as he agrees with me.

Maybe P-funk has good pictures, but maybe he could be bigger, stronger & leaner if he ate enough food before his cardio.

It has been proven that doing cardio on an empty stomach 1st thing in the morning will put your body in a state of ketosis & your body will start going to the protein & your muscle tissue for energy instead of burning fat the way ppl think it will.

You will lose weight, but it will be muscle & tissue not fat.

Prince knows what he's talking about & so do I as I've read this so many times & heard it from sooo many certified trainers & body builders natural & steroid enhanced.

So I think they know what they're doing as they've been in the game for a long time & have had to do extensive research so they know how to help their clients achieve their goals.

But again this is totally off topic from the thread.


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## CowPimp (May 27, 2004)

I'm not saying Prince doesn't know what he's talking about.  As I said, I agree with what you are saying and I don't choose to use that method myself.  I am also saying that if it works for P-Funk, then you have no right telling him it's wrong.  He knows his body better than you do, just as you know your body better than he does.  You do what works for you and he does what works for him.  Let's keep it that way and not butt heads.


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## tucker01 (May 27, 2004)

Your body doesn't go to Ketosis that quickly, there are reserves built up that probably would last a couple of days.  

Note Patrick also stated that he has tried both methods, and feels that empty stomach cardio works for him.

Again.  EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT, EXPERIMENT AND LOG YOUR RESULTS TO NOTICE CHANGES.  USE THAT TO MAKE YOUR DECISION.  Not because joe blow says so, or some outdated book makes it sound a certain way.

Anyway, I am out of hear,  just feel like I am beating my head on a wall,  and shit I don't even know that much.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

CowPimp like I said P-funk maybe could be bigger, stronger & leaner if he did his cardio with food in his system.

Since he's causing his body to use protein & muscle tissue for energy instead of fat, he is losing size & strength. That is why I say he could be bigger & stronger & have a more heavier lean muscled physique.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

IainDaniel ketosis will eventually happen. But the fact of the matter is that even if it's not in ketosis immediately, having no food especially carbs in your system will cause your body to turn to muscle & tissue for energy.


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## P-funk (May 27, 2004)

> P-funk so I guess you don't believe Prince either than? I guess he has no credibility either eh?



Johnny, not olny are you incredibly stupid but you also have problems reading.  Maybe the fact that you can't read and comprehend is your biggest problem......I never said that I don't agree with prince and I never said that I don't agree with you.  All I said was that I feel it is a great way to do cardio when you are trying to get lean.  Prince has a lot of credibility in my book as he has proven himself to be very wise and well read since I have been a member here.  I value his opinion, which is always backed not only with personal trail and error from years of trainig BUT SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE, which you have failed to provide me with.  So, you have no credibilty in my book and after reading some of your other threads you are terribly missinformed on a lot of things.

here are some of my key phrases incase you missed them:



> Here is a study that backs up my argument. Like i said, this is an age old debate that you can't find a concrete answer to. For every study you post defending yourself I can find one more that defends my point of view






> The main reson that I feel it works is because I have tried it both ways and this works for me. I know my body pretty darn well.





> For every study that you show me that states it is not effective i can show you two more that say it is and vice versa. We can go back and forth





Johnny wrote:



> Maybe P-funk has good pictures, but maybe he could be bigger, stronger & leaner if he ate enough food before his cardio.



I would never be doing cardio on an empty stomach if I wasn't dieting.  the only time I do this is if I am dieting down so that I make sure I am gettgin as big and as strong as I can every other time.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

P-funk I don't appreciate your comments at the beginning of the thread.

Results & experiences speak louder than words. Sometimes it's hard to find info to back your own personal statements & experiences as there are many sites on the web that don't always give the good advice. All I can say is that if the majority of ppl where ever they are & what ever gym they go to have has the same results from a  certain training & diet regime or a negative effect from a training method or whatever, results even negative speak louder than words.

You can still diet down & get lean without losing muscle/strength while eating before doing your cardio. I'm doing it right now with my 15-20mins worth of 15second sprints AFTER my weight lifting workout. Plus I only have time to go to the gym once a day 4-5 times a week.


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## P-funk (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> P-funk I don't appreciate your comments at the beginning of the thread.
> 
> Results & experiences speak louder than words. Sometimes it's hard to find info to back your own personal statements & experiences as there are many sites on the web that don't always give the good advice. All I can say is that if the majority of ppl where ever they are & what ever gym they go to have has the same results from a  certain training & diet regime or a negative effect from a training method or whatever, results even negative speak louder than words.
> ...




I don;t appreciate YOUR comments at all!!  All you have done is critise me and say that I am giving people "miss information".  All I did was provide you with scientific evidence to back up my idea.  I was not disagreeing with you, rather offering another side of the coin for everyone here to try some different methosa and see WHAT WORKS BEST FOR THEM.  Experience is great for you but if are trying to debate something then you need to show evidence for your reasoning, not jsut list you personal experience.  That is not good enough for me and not good enough for many others here and elsewhere.  Someitmes it is hard to find info to back up your own personal findings if you don't know were to look or how to go about it.  Judging by other threads that you have started I would say that you are very new to weight training, or at least weight training seriouisly.  And I would even go as far to say that you probably have never even done early morining cardio on an empty stomach for enough weeks in a row to come to a final decision, while journaling you findings, your bf% (lost) in comparion to your weight loss and your overal measurments.  When I try different trainig ideas out I journal everything so that I know what works for me and what doesn't and to help others out I keep my journal here so that everyone can see incase they have questions or would like to try.

Your ability to reason and debate properly is way off base.  I am absolutly out raged at the fact that you talked down to me and I tried to discredit what I was saying without any proper evidence to back things up.  I am always willing to help people out as much as I can.  my first post in this thread was a joke (I like to joke around a lot and be sarcastic and maybe you haven't been here long enough to realize that so I am sorry if you took it the worng way).  I don't claim to know everything and I have learned a lot from others here and am always open to different ideas and philosophies.  I have been doing this stuff for a long time and I work hard at it.  I study a lot and I don't need someone suggesting that I am a dumbass.  Don't ever expect me to help you out because I only respect those that give the respect back whether they are just starting out or have been in this game for a long time.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

P-funk I apologize if I came off in critcising you. But I'm just concerned about other ppl here especially new ppl who don't no much & take advice from everywhere that man not always be the best or healthiest. We were all like that when we first started training. I never said or meant to say that you think you know everything. I have nothing against you.

But Prince backed up what I was saying about doing cardio 1st thing in the morning on an empty stomach isn't healthy or good as your body will start going towards your protein, tissue & lean mass for energy not fat.

You can still get very lean & big doing your cardio after eating some protein & carbs. That's all. Instead of doing it for a cutting period, you should just try doing your cardio with food prior to the cardio. That's all.

I never said you were a dumbass or anything of the sort. you should just reconsider what Prince & I have said about cardio 1st thing in the morning on an empty stomach not being healthy.

It might not mean much but the majority of ppl I've met who've tried this procedure to get lean have eventually burned themselves out after a couple of weeks & have actually lost muscle. That's all, you yourself could be much bigger & leaner than as you are when you do your cardio on an empty stomach 1st thing in the morning even on a cutting period. That's all.

I have nothing against you, I'm just steering you in the right direction along with the ppl here who don't know any better.
I know bodybuilders who are 250lbs ripped steroid enhanced & they too lost muscle size/strength doing their cardio 1st thing in the morning on an empty stomach.

It's just not good for you. Like I said I also tried it & I was burnt out after 10days & lost a lot of strength & had to take a week off from training to recover from the ordeal.

Just reconsider, but if you're convinced that it works & won't lose muscle or strength than I guess there's no convincing you.

But I wouldn't recommend giving this advice to clients, because if they get sick or something from doing this then they'll be after you & you'll be in trouble. I've seen this sort of thing happen between trainer & client & it isn't pretty. Just be careful that's all.


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## P-funk (May 27, 2004)

> I have nothing against you, I'm just steering you in the right direction along with the ppl here who don't know any better.



thanks for steering me in the right directin because I don't know any better.

Just shut up!!!

It isn't that i am not concivneced that it works.  It is that sciene proves that it works...read the damn study!!

I don't care about 205lb bb'ers and I don't care if you got burned out after 10 days of it.  maybe you were severly deconditoned at the time you tried it.  Whoe knows.  Maybe you just train like a wuss and can't handle it.

Don't try and apologize to me.  It wont work.  I have no interst in hearing what you have to say.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

P-funk I'm trying to get along with you here but the door swings both ways.



> thanks for steering me in the right directin because I don't know any better.



I never said you didn't know any better, you just might be misinformed as was I. 



> It isn't that i am not concivneced that it works. It is that sciene proves that it works...read the damn study!!



Science also proves that it causes ketosis & that your body will turn to your tissue & lean mass for energy not fat as Prince also says. Science also proves that without glycogen your body won't burn fat very effectively.



> I don't care about 205lb bb'ers and I don't care if you got burned out after 10 days of it. maybe you were severly deconditoned at the time you tried it. Whoe knows. Maybe you just train like a wuss and can't handle it.



I said 250lb bodybuilders. As for me being deconditioned & training like a wuss? You don't know anything about my training or conditioning. I've run 40 yard dash sprints & I still run sprints on the treadmill I do 10 20second sprints in 15mins after 55mins of weights. My 40yard dash was between 4.5-4.55 which is very good for a almost 230lb RB & is probably a little higher now as I'm not training the same or doing plyometrics very much but I could get it back down to 4.5 or so if I really wanted. So don't come at me telling me that it's because I'm underconditioned.



> Don't try and apologize to me. It wont work. I have no interst in hearing what you have to say.



Well again I'm trying to get along with you here as I still have nothing against you even after you've insulted me But this statement says what type of person you could possibly be? Unless you prove me wrong.

I don't want to have arguements with you or not get along with you, but on this one I have to agree with Prince. But I'm still willing to get along with you as I have no beef with you.


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## BlueCorsair (May 27, 2004)

Lovely little flame war gentleman.

And what have we learned?

Some say no pre-food cardio. Some say pre-food cardio.

Joy. I'm sure all of us who actually cared about the "real" answer are now suitably terrified of fucking up and looking anorexic. 

Thanks guys 

On a personal note, I think I'll try 16 minutes or so of HIIT on a couple of "off" days per week, about an hour to two hours after my first meal.

I'm an ecto, and my very hard try at a bulk got me from 128 to 155 pounds. At 5'6, and with a tiny bone structure like mine, that was a feat in and of itself. On even the *slight* possibility that pre-food cardio can cause muscle loss (catabolism) I simply have to avoid it. I'm not big and beefy, and I can't afford to lose anymore than the bare minimum. 

So, thanks for the...erm. Histrionics.


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## P-funk (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BlueCorsair *_
> Lovely little flame war gentleman.
> 
> And what have we learned?
> ...



If I were you I wouldn't do any cardio.   Why bother??  You are trying to bulk up right?  You shouldn't waist your energy on carido if you are that much of an ectomorph.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

BlueCorsair



> Lovely little flame war gentleman



Hey I'm not the one throwing flames out, that's P-Funk.

But I agree with him on you not doing cardio because you're an ectomorph.

I have a buddy who was 6ft2 180lbs in high school an ectomorph. It took he about 4.5yrs to reach 6ft4 220-225lbs. He stayed that size from about 21yrs old to 24yrs old & now takes juice about 3-4 times a year & blows up to about 240-250lbs. That's off topic, but the point is he never did cardio at all & stayed lean. 

When he first started training he was doing & was having a hard time gaining weight & growing until he was told he shouldn't be doing cardio. So he even now never does cardio being an ectomorph & he eats about 8 times a day plus 2 or 3 whey shakes a day. & 6 meals out of the 8 contain carbs.


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## Var (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Robert DiMaggio *_
> so basically what I am saying is Johnnny has a valid point.



  Now you've done it!  He'll never stop now!


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## PreMier (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> I said 250lb bodybuilders. As for me being deconditioned & training like a wuss? You don't know anything about my training or conditioning. I've run 40 yard dash sprints & I still run sprints on the treadmill I do 10 20second sprints in 15mins after 55mins of weights. My 40yard dash was between 4.5-4.55 which is very good for a almost 230lb RB & is probably a little higher now as I'm not training the same or doing plyometrics very much but I could get it back down to 4.5 or so if I really wanted. So don't come at me telling me that it's because I'm underconditioned.



How much did you weigh while running a 4.5 40?


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## P-funk (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by PreMier *_
> How much did you weigh while running a 4.5 40?



That is a really good time.  ever think about trying to train for the olympics??


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## PreMier (May 27, 2004)

Yea, or if he did it while he was 230Lbs without the "thyroid condition" he could have been in the NFL.  

He is soo full of shit man.


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## Jodi (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Var *_
> Now you've done it!  He'll never stop now!


  Yeah, Prince, you agree with him so he must be right.  You are right Prince because he agrees with you.  

Hey everyone, Prince agrees with Johnny so Johnny's right.



Johnny  - STFU!


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## Arnold (May 27, 2004)

I did not post that to agree with him or back him up, I posted it because it's true.


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## Jodi (May 27, 2004)

Relax Prince, I'm only kiddin with you


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## Var (May 27, 2004)




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## powernap (May 27, 2004)

DOING CARDIO FORST THING IN THE MORING ON AN EMPTY STOMOCH IS A TERRIBLE IDEA AS IT WILL INDUCE CATOBOLISM. What you are trying to achieve form cardio is an increased metabolic function which in turn burn calories throughout the day.


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## P-funk (May 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by powernap *_
> DOING CARDIO FORST THING IN THE MORING ON AN EMPTY STOMOCH IS A TERRIBLE IDEA AS IT WILL INDUCE CATOBOLISM. What you are trying to achieve form cardio is an increased metabolic function which in turn burn calories throughout the day.




Please post a study.


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## Johnnny (May 28, 2004)

PreMier I weighed about 227lbs with descent definition when my 
40 yard dash time was between 4.5-4.55 or so give or take the good days to the bad days but like I said our team was a power running team that ran up the middle of the line & relied on our WR's for speed. We used power running up the middle to fatigue the opposing defense & it worked very well. 

& yes that was before my throid problem was newly developed.

I wasn't NFL material but good enough to make a highschool team, a college team, & a city league team. The slowest guy on our team was a 6ft5 300lb offensive tackle & he could run a 40yard dash in around 4.7-4.8 you don't have to believe me I don't give a sh!t. But do you know how many guys out there with speed, size & talent that aren't in the NFL for one reason or another? Lots. We had one defensive end who got a half football scholarship to Tenesee University along with a half educational scholarship & another guy went to Michigan but I haven't heard about him.

I see P-Funk still doesn't believe Prince or myself. Oh well his loss, but I wouldn't recommend cardio 1st thing in the morning on an empty stomach for most ppl as it causes catabolism study or no study I don't care what anyone thinks. Studies & documents aren't always easy to find.


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## Arnold (May 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by P-funk *_
> Please post a study.



Post a study that proves doing cardio on an empty stomach first thing in the morning is more beneficial than doing it any other time during the day.


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## Johnnny (May 28, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio



> Post a study that proves doing cardio on an empty stomach first thing in the morning is more beneficial than doing it any other time during the day.



Word. I'd like to hear what kind of study he'd be able to find approving cardio 1st thing in the morning on an empty stomach.

I'm very sure that he will find some information on the internet saying that doing cardio 1st thing in the morning on an empty stomach is good, but the rest of the advice that some of these sites give in regards to training is complete garbage so you certainly won't be able to trust their advice on cardio.

Personally I find it much more beneficial to do it after your weights & I eat 1hr before, right after the gym & 3 more small meals before I go to bed. 

As for my sprint training "after my workout" consists of 15-20mins with 15 second sprints at a time. I set the inlince at about level 12 & the speed at 8 mph. I do about 8-12 sprints in 15mins & more than 12 if I do 20mins. & it has started to really cut down my waist.


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## P-funk (May 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Robert DiMaggio *_
> Post a study that proves doing cardio on an empty stomach first thing in the morning is more beneficial than doing it any other time during the day.




I already did


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## Johnnny (May 28, 2004)

P-funk



> I already did



It's probably from one of those sites that are providing bad information. Like I said I've found articles on the net telling you to do cardio 1st thing in the morning on an empty stomach was good, but the rest of their information on training & dieting was garbage.


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## P-funk (May 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> P-funk
> 
> 
> ...




Wow, now I am conviced that you have a reading problem and that is why you are so stupid.  If you look at the fucking study it tells you what group conducted it!!!  It is out of a peer reviewed journal you jackass.  I took it off of pubmed.com.   Man, you really are stupid, I feel so badly that you have to go through life like this. 



Energy metabolism during exercise at different time intervals following a meal.

Willcutts KF, Wilcox AR, Grunewald KK.

Department of Physical Education, Dance and Leisure Studies, Kansas State University, Manhattan 66506.


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## P-funk (May 28, 2004)

Here is another articel written in Ironman Magazine, complete with referneces for those that can read (Johnny this is not you).  Right from the start he says exactly what I said...."this is an on going debate and you can argue either way."  see what is best for you.


A.M. Fat Burn 
Written by Tom Venuto - for Ironman Magazine

An excerpt from Tom's article in Ironman, August 2001 - 

Even though morning cardio has been embraced by bodybuilders as a "tried and true" fat loss technique, there is definitely not a unanimous agreement about its effectiveness, especially in the scientific community. Most competitive bodybuilders are die-hard advocates of doing cardio first thing in the morning before eating their first meal. They believe it will cause them to mobilize more stored body fat and increase their metabolic rate all day long. Theres quite a bit of scientific literature supporting the a.m. fasted cardio theory, but generally, the exercise physiologists and scientists tend not to buy it. They subscribe to the energy balance hypothesis, which states; as long as you burn more calories than you consume in each 24 hour period, then the time of day you burn them doesnt matter, nor does whether you burn them from fat or carbohydrate. 

If you have even the most rudimentary understanding of human physiology and physics, you have to concede that the timing of your cardio is not the most important factor in fat loss. When you do your cardio wont make or break you. Simply doing it whenever its convenient and following a mildly calorie restricted diet is whats important. However, theres a very strong case for doing fasted a.m. cardio and if you want to gain every legal and ethical advantage possible in your quest to get leaner then its definitely something you should take a closer look at. 

The argument in favor of fasted early morning cardio goes something like this:

1. When you wake up in the morning after an overnight 8-12 hour fast, your body???s stores of glycogen are somewhat depleted. Doing cardio in this state causes your body to mobilize more fat because of the unavailability of glycogen.

2. Eating causes a release of insulin. Insulin interferes with the mobilization of body fat. Less insulin is present in the morning; therefore, more body fat is burned when cardio is done in the morning. 

3. There is less carbohydrate (glucose) "floating around" in the bloodstream when you wake up after an overnight fast. With less glucose available, you will burn more fat. 

4. If you eat immediately before a workout, you have to burn off what you just ate first before tapping into stored body fat (and insulin is elevated after a meal.) 

5. When you do cardio in the morning, your metabolism stays elevated for a period of time after the workout is over. If you do cardio in the evening, you burn calories during the session so you definitely benefit from it, but you fail to take advantage of the "afterburn" effect because your metabolic rate drops dramatically as soon as you go to sleep.

Research supports this theory. A study performed at Kansas State University and published in Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise showed that a kilogram of fat is burned sooner when exercise is done in the fasted state in the morning than when its done later in the day. The researchers measured respiratory gas exchange, caloric expenditure and carbohydrate and fatty acid metabolism, and found that the amount of fat burned during aerobic exercise amounted to 67% of the total energy expenditure in the morning after a 12 hour fast. This is substantially higher than the 50% expenditure achieved when the same exercise was done later in the day or after eating. A similar study from The Journal of Applied Physiology looked at the effects of aerobic exercise on lipid oxidation in fed versus fasted states. The researchers concluded, "our results support the hypothesis that endurance training enhances lipid oxidation in men after a 12 hour overnight fast." Yet another scientific paper, Optimizing Exercise for Fat Loss," reports, "The ability of exercise to selectively promote fat oxidation should be optimized if exercise is done during morning fasted metabolism."

Despite the fact that increased fat burning from morning aerobics seems logical and is backed by research, the majority of scientists and exercise physiologists vehemently deny its effectiveness. They are quick to point out that you can find a study to support almost any theory you want to advocate. Interestingly though, even the most dyed in the wool academics agree that you???ll burn more fat in the fuel mix as compared to sugars. The real controversy lies in whether this fact has any impact on overall fat loss in the long run. 

Exercise Physiologist Greg Landry, MS, author of "The Metabolism System for Weight Loss and Fitness," explains, "I agree that you burn a fuel mix that is a little higher in fat if youre exercising on an empty stomach. However, I think the real question is, does that matter? I believe we have a pool of calories stored in different forms in the body (fat, glycogen, etc.), so burned calories all come from the same pool. Thus, it really doesnt matter that the fuel mix has a little more fat in it at a given time. If its pulling from fat stores at that time, then its pulling less from glycogen stores and thus future consumed calories will be a little more likely to be stored as fat because glycogen stores are a little fuller. So its all a wash."

Lyle McDonald, an expert on bodybuilding nutrition and author of "The Ketogenic Diet," agrees. He argues that the body will compensate later in the day and is simply "too smart" for strategies like this to ever work: "All that research says is that you burn a greater proportion of fat this way, which I agree with 100%," says Lyle. "The majority of research shows that as far as real world fat loss goes, it doesnt really matter what you burn. Rather, 24-hour calorie balance is what matters. Because if you burn glucose during exercise, you tend to burn more fat the rest of the day. If you burn fat during exercise, you burn more glucose during the day. The end result is identical. If that werent the case, then athletes like sprinters who never burn fat during exercise wouldnt be shredded. Basically, they burn so many calories that they remain in balance and dont gain any fat. So, while morning cardio probably provides some psychological benefits to bodybuilders who are programmed to do it that way, I cant say that I think it will result in greater real world fat loss, which is what matters."

When it comes to "real world" fat loss, few people have more experience than Chris Aceto. A successful bodybuilder and nutritionist to some of the top pro bodybuilders in the world, Aceto is a firm believer in morning cardio. He unequivocally states, "The fastest way to tap stored body fat is to do cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach."

Aceto believes that looking at calories only in terms of energy in vs. energy out is "limited thinking." He asserts that there are more factors involved in "real world" results than just energy balance. This all comes back to the old argument, are all calories created equal? "Absolutely not!" Aceto declares. "A calorie is not just a calorie and exercise physiologists freak out when they hear this."

"These guys are working from the assumption that it???s just a matter of calories in vs. calories out, period," Chris continued. "With that line of reasoning, they???d be forced to say that if I consume nothing but candy bars and Coca-Cola, and take in 100 calories less than maintenance, I???d lose weight. We know it???s not that simple. You also have to account for ratios of carbs, protein, and fat. Then there???s meal frequency too: From real world results we know you put down more muscle mass from 5 or 6 meals a day than from 3 meals a day. There are more things involved than just calories."

Whether or not morning cardio in the fasted state increases "real world" fat loss is still the subject of controversy, but there are many other reasons you might want to consider making it a part of your daily routine. Landry, despite his doubts about whether the fuel source matters, admits, "If I had to pick a single factor I thought was most important in a successful weight loss program, it would have to be to exercise first thing in the morning." 

Here are some of the additional benefits of doing cardio early in the morning:

1.It makes you feel great all day by releasing mood-enhancing endorphins. 

2. It "energizes" you and "wakes you up."

3. It may help regulate your appetite for the rest of the day.

4. Your body???s circadian rhythm adjusts to your morning routine, making it easier to wake up at the same time every day.

5. You???ll be less likely to "blow off" your workout when it???s out of the way early (like when you???re exhausted after work or when friends ask you to join them at the pub for happy hour).

6. You can always "make time" for exercise by setting your alarm earlier in the morning.

7. It increases your metabolic rate for hours after the session is over. 

Of all these benefits, the post-exercise increase in your metabolic rate is one of the most talked about. Scientists call this "afterburn" effect the "excess post-exercise oxygen consumption" or EPOC for short.

Looking only at the number of calories and the type of calories burned during the session doesnt give you the full picture. You also need to look at the increased number of calories you continue to burn after the workout is over. Thats right - work out in the morning and you burn calories all day long. Imagine burning extra fat as you sit at your desk at work! Thats the good news. The bad news is, the degree of EPOC is not as great as most people think. Its a myth that your metabolism stays elevated for 24 hours after a regular aerobic workout. That only happens after extremely intense and/or prolonged exercise such as running a marathon.

After low intensity exercise, the magnitude of the EPOC is so small that its impact on fat loss is negligible. Somewhere between 9 and 30 extra calories are burned after exercise at an intensity of less than 60-65% of maximal heart rate. In other words, a casual stroll on the treadmill will do next to nothing to increase your metabolism. 

However, EPOC does increase with the intensity (and duration) of the exercise. According to Wilmore and Costill in "Physiology of Sport and Exercise," the EPOC after moderate exercise (75-80%) will amount to approximately .25 kcal/min or 15 kcal/hour. This would provide an additional expenditure of 75 kcal that would not normally be calculated in the total energy expended for that activity. An extra 75 calories is definitely nothing Earth shattering. However, it does add up over time. In a year that would mean (in theory) you would burn an extra 5.2 lbs of fat from the additional calories expended after the workout. 

One way to get a significant post exercise "afterburn" is high intensity interval training (HIIT). HIIT is done by alternating brief periods of high intensity work (85% or more) with brief periods of lower intensity work. Studies on the effects of HIIT have demonstrated a much higher EPOC, which can add substantially to the day???s calorie expenditure. In one study, scientists from the University of Alabama compared the effects of two exercise protocols on 24-hour energy expenditure. The first group cycled for 60 minutes at a moderate intensity. The second group performed HIIT, cycling for two minutes at high intensity followed by two minutes at a low intensity. The group that performed the HIIT burned 160 more calories in 24 hours than the low intensity group. That means the HIIT group would burn an extra 11.8 pounds of fat in one year if they did HIIT five days a week instead of conventional training. 

Ironically, weight training has a much higher magnitude of EPOC than aerobic training. Studies have shown increases in metabolic rate of as much as 4-7% over a 24-hour period from resistance training. Yes - that means bodybuilding does burn fat ??? albeit through an indirect mechanism. For someone with an expenditure of 2500 calories per day, that could add up to 100 - 175 extra calories burned after your weight training workout is over. The lesson is simple: Anyone interested in losing body fat who is not lifting weights should first take up a regimen of bodybuilding, then ??? and only then ??? start thinking about the morning cardio! 

A common concern about doing cardio in the fasted state, especially if it???s done with high intensity, is the possibility of losing muscle. After an overnight fast, glycogen, blood glucose and insulin are all low. As we???ve already concluded, this is an optimum environment for burning fat. Unfortunately, it may also be an optimum environment for burning muscle because carbohydrate fuel sources are low and levels of the catabolic stress hormone cortisol are high. It sounds like morning cardio might be a double-edged sword, but there are ways to avert muscle loss.

All aerobic exercise will have some effect on building muscle, but as long as you don???t overdo it, you shouldn???t worry about losing muscle. It's a fact that muscle proteins are broken down and used for energy during aerobic exercise. But you are constantly breaking down and re-building muscle tissue anyway. This process is called "protein turnover" and its a daily fact of life. Your goal is to tip the scales slightly in favor of increasing the anabolic side and reducing the catabolic side just enough so you stay anabolic and you gain or at least maintain muscle. 

How do you build up more muscle than you break down? First, avoid excessive cardio. Aceto suggests limiting your cardio on an empty stomach to 30 minutes, and then it would be "highly unlikely that amino acids will be burned as fuel." He also mentions that "a strong cup of coffee should facilitate a shifting to burn more fat and less glycogen. If you can spare glycogen, you???ll ultimately spare protein too." You might also want to consider experimenting with the thermogenic ephedrine-caffeine-aspirin stack (or it???s herbal equivalent).

Second, give your body the proper nutritional support. Losing muscle probably has more to do with inadequate nutrition than with excessive aerobics. Provide yourself with the proper nutritional support for the rest of the day, including adequate meal frequency, protein, carbohydrates and total calories, and it???s not as likely that there will be a net loss of muscle tissue over each 24-hour period. 

Third, keep training with heavy weights, even during a fat loss phase. Using light weights and higher reps thinking that it will help you get more "cut" is a mistake: What put the muscle on in the first place is likely to help you keep it there.

Still petrified of losing your hard-earned muscle, but you???d like to take advantage of the fat-burning and metabolism-boosting effects of morning cardio? One strategy many bodybuilders use is to drink a protein shake or eat a protein only meal 30-60 minutes prior to the morning session. The protein without the carbs will minimize the insulin response and allow you to mobilize fat while providing amino acids to prevent muscle breakdown.

In conclusion, it seems that morning cardio has enough indisputable benefits to motivate most people to set their alarms early. But let???s talk bottom line results here: Does it really result in more "real world fat loss" than aerobics performed at other times of the day or after eating? I have to believe it does. Experience, common sense and research all tell me so. Nevertheless, this will obviously continue to be an area of much debate, and clearly, more research is needed. In the meantime, while the scientists are busy in their labs measuring respiratory exchange ratios, caloric expenditures and rates of substrate utilization, I???m going to keep waking up at 6:00 AM every morning to get on my Stairmaster.



References

1. Aceto, Chris. Everything you need to know about fat loss. Club Creavalle, Inc. (1997).

2. Bahr, R. Excess post-exercise oxygen consumption ??? Magnitude, Mechanisms and Practical Implications. Acta Physiol Scand. Suppl. (1992) 605. 1-70.

3. Bergman, BC, Brooks, GA. Respiratory gas-exchange ratios during graded exercise in fed and fasted trained and untrained men. Journal of Applied Physiology. (1999) 86: 2.

4. Brehm, B.A., and Gutin, B. Recovery energy expenditure for steady state exercise in runners and non-exercisers. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. (1986) 18: 205, 

5. Brybner, BW. The effects of exercise intensity on body composition, weight loss, and dietary composition in women. Journal of American College of Nutrition, (1997) 16: 68-73

6. Landry, Greg. The Metabolism System for Weight Loss. Greg Landry. (2000).

7. Maehlum, S., etc al. Magnitude and duration of post exercise oxygen consumption in healthy young subjects. Metabolism (1986) 35 (5): 425-429. 

8. McCarty, MF. Optimizing Exercise for Fat Loss. Medical Hypothesis. (1995) 44: 325-330 

9. McDonald, Lyle. The Ketogenic Diet. Morris Publishing, (1998).

10. Melby, C. et al. Effect of acute resistance exercise on post exercise energy expenditure and resting metabolic rate. J Applied Physiology, (1993). 75: 1847-1853

11. Wilmore, Jack, Costill, David. Physiology of Sport and Exercise. (1999) 2nd ed. Human Kinetics

12. Tremblay, A, et al, Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism. Metabolism (1994) 43: 818-818

13. Treuth, M.S., Hunter, G.R., & Williams, M. Effects of exercise intensity on 24-h energy expenditure and substrate oxidation. Medicine and Science in Sports & Exercise. (1996) 28, 1138-1143 

14.Wilcox, Harford & Wedel. Medicine and Science in Sports & Exercise, (1985) 17:2


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## Jodi (May 28, 2004)

> Wow, now I am conviced that you have a reading problem and that is why you are so stupid. If you look at the fucking study it tells you what group conducted it!!! It is out of a peer reviewed journal you jackass. I took it off of pubmed.com. Man, you really are stupid, I feel so badly that you have to go through life like this.


You are so cute when you are pissed.


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## Var (May 28, 2004)

I love when Funk hands out a beatin'!!!...and does so with facts to back it up.


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## P-funk (May 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> You are so cute when you are pissed.




hahaha, you are not the first girl to say that to me. 

The sad thing is I really hate lashing out and losing my temper like that but I can't stand when someone challenges me and accuses me of giving false information or telling me that I don't know how to inform my clients properly.  I like a good debate but if you want to argue with a moron you need to step down to their level.


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## Johnnny (May 28, 2004)

Pfunk that article doesn't mean anything. Science proves that cardio on an empty stomach 1st thing in the morning isn't good for you & is catabolic.

All I can say is Prince knows & there's also a few other ppl here who agree with the 2 of us.

So go ahead & continue doing what you're doing. You are the one who will lose out on valueable size increase & strength. In fact you will eventually get smaller from losing the muscle & tissue & therefore weaker.

I'd like to see how you'll continue to improve at that point despite what this article says. One things for sure Prince didn't write it.


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## PreMier (May 28, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Pfunk that article doesn't mean anything. Science proves that cardio on an empty stomach 1st thing in the morning isn't good for you & is catabolic.




Post a study.  I would like to read a "Scientific Study" that "Early AM cardio is catabolic".  Post it, because as you already know I think you are full of shit.


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## NickB (May 28, 2004)

Yes, p funk, continue doing what you're doing. Backing up your claims with facts and sources. How dare you? How dare you indeed.


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## CowPimp (May 28, 2004)

P-Funk, just walk away.  I know how hard it is to just stop debating, but I think you should.  It seems that it is causing you undue stress.  You have nothing to prove to this person who is so obviously thick headed.  Not only did you partially agree with him, but you backed up your claims with studies and personal experience.  You have proved your point.  There is no need for you to convine this character; he obviously has no intention of opening his mind no matter what.  Some people just have trouble realizing that *there is almost always more than one effective way to do something, especially when it comes to bodybuilding and exercise.*


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## P-funk (May 28, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> P-Funk, just walk away.  I know how hard it is to just stop debating, but I think you should.  It seems that it is causing you undue stress.  You have nothing to prove to this person who is so obviously thick headed.  Not only did you partially agree with him, but you backed up your claims with studies and personal experience.  You have proved your point.  There is no need for you to convine this character; he obviously has no intention of opening his mind no matter what.  Some people just have trouble realizing that *there is almost always more than one effective way to do something, especially when it comes to bodybuilding and exercise.*




You are right cowpimp.  I am out of this debate.  there is nothing further that i can say.


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## Johnnny (May 28, 2004)

PreMier with you saying I'm full of shit about am cardio on an empty stomach=catabolism? Well then you are also saying the wise Prince is also full of shit because Prince agrees with me on this one. I don't think he'll be too happy to hear that you think he's full of shit.


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## NickB (May 28, 2004)

Johnnny, shudit unless you can back up what your saying. Props to Prince for all he's done for the bodybuilding community, but we need you (johnnny) to come out and post something other than saying Prince agrees with you.


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## PreMier (May 28, 2004)

I never stated that Prince was full of shit.  Dont make me look like I said something that I did not.  You have a problem with this.


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## Big Smoothy (May 29, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> I was wondering if any of you thought 15-20mins of light-moderat cardio on rest days bad if in a cutting period?
> 
> I'm toning up & I was just wondering



What do you mean by "toning up?"

What is your definition of tone?

That word is one of the biggest B.S. concepts I've ever heard.  It's for suburban "fitness centers" that are marketing to flabby housewives, and male beer-bellied heart attack candidates.


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## Johnnny (May 29, 2004)

Isn't it obvious? Getting lean, getting cut, getting a harder body, getting more definition. That's what I mean.


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## JLB001 (May 29, 2004)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> What do you mean by "toning up?"
> 
> What is your definition of tone?
> 
> That word is one of the biggest B.S. concepts I've ever heard.  It's for suburban "fitness centers" that are marketing to flabby housewives, and male beer-bellied heart attack candidates.


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## Johnnny (May 29, 2004)

JLB001



> What is your definition of tone?
> 
> That word is one of the biggest B.S. concepts I've ever heard. It's for suburban "fitness centers" that are marketing to flabby housewives, and male beer-bellied heart attack candidates.



Whatever dude you get the point. Getting a harder body, lean muscle mass, definition, vascularity, cuts, cutting, getting ripped, dieting down to get lean, it all means the same sh!t.


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## DrChiro (May 30, 2004)

I'm not sure why I am bothering...but here it goes anyway.

first of all breaking down fat is a catabolic activity...there are several things you can do to maximize fat catabolism while sparing muscle.

cortisol levels are very high in the morning...they remain high if you dont eat...and get even higher if you train (cardio or lifting).

cortisol is VERY catabolic but not specific to muscle or fat...it will break down both.
the trick then would be to  minimize muscle breakdown but not inhibit fat breakdown.

this can be accomplished by taking some BCAA's , glutamine, or a protein drink before morning cardio.


what you dont want to do is have carbs...as these will increase insulin and make it near impossible to burn fat at your most efficient rate.

again, we must remember individuality...I find that morning cardio does not burn off my muscle...only my fat.....and i do get bodyfat tested every week so it is not just speculation. Others may find that it burns off muscle and may want to use some protein or avoid doing it all together.

Cardio can be used in several different ways as well.
1. as a tool to create a calorie defecit.....if this is your only goal for cardio then it really doesnt matter when you do it or what is in your stomach.....you are just concerned about burning calories.
2. to amp up metabolism by stimulating the thyroid.....this would involve HITT type of intense training....again...who cares about what is in your stomach...eat if you want.
3.to burn as much fat as possible...in this case you want to maximize every avenue you can to ensure that fat will be burned as fuel rather than carbs or muscle.this would invole morning cardio on an empty stomach. This is where we have our argument.

IMO...if you are so concerned about losing muscle mass then I would do as little cardio as possible and control your diet to get the results you want...it may take longer but it is less likely to cause muscle wasting.

Or,,in Johnnny's cae....you can just take a laxative to lose weight....because I'm pretty sure any excess weight you have is because you are FULL OF SHIT.


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## Arnold (May 30, 2004)

DrChiro said:
			
		

> what you dont want to do is have carbs...as these will increase insulin and make it near impossible to burn fat at your most efficient rate.


*Understanding Cardio???s Effect on Fat Metabolism*
by *Paul Delia*

Energy expenditure during cardio is very misunderstood. What is even more misunderstood is energy expenditure after cardio as a result of the cardio. When doing cardio, the primary energy source your body uses is glycogen. Your body uses very little, if any, fat stores for energy during cardio. Even if you haven't eaten food for several hours your body still uses glycogen as its primary energy source. You must let go of the wrong assumption that you are actually burning fat while you are doing cardio. You are not!

The benefit you get from cardio, from a fat burning standpoint (there are many other health benefits), is its effect on your resting metabolic rate. Your resting metabolic rate is the amount of energy your body expends when you are not exerting yourself, at rest. Cardio training, and especially Max-OT Cardio, has a dramatic elevating effect on your body's resting metabolic rate.

When you increase your resting metabolic rate, you increase your body's overall fat burning capabilities - you make your body much more efficient at burning body fat. Max-OT Cardio will make your body a 24-hour a day fat burning furnace. The problem with conventional, long duration, low intensity cardio is that it has minimum impact on increasing your resting metabolic rate. However, long duration, low intensity cardio will deplete glycogen stores. When this happens, you will start primarily utilizing lean muscle for your energy needs. Long duration cardio will break down muscle tissue.

http://www.ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=97


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## Johnnny (May 31, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio

That was a very informative piece of information & link. I personally already do that form of cardio in 15mins & do interval training on the treadmill. I do sprints & each 15 second sprint gets harder & faster & faster all the way up to a speed of around 10.5mph & I even on several sprints put an incline angle on the treadmill. It's great, I always do it after my weights. I find it works very well plus I don't have time during the day to go to the gym twice a day b/c of work or if I'm working at home that morning I like to get an extra 30 or 60mins of sleep which is very important for recovery.


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## Chain Link (May 31, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Robert DiMaggio
> 
> That was a very informative piece of information & link.



Ditto, That awnsered quite a few linguering questions. Thanks!(But ya know.. you ruined a perfectly good debate again Rob   )


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## olusco (Oct 28, 2005)

There will always going to be different view on how to Burn fats in bb and fitness community. Some say empty stomach while some say is wrong. The only way is by trying all-type then one can decided what way to go. Science never ends. bodybuilding Science is an evolution .


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