# Some Carb Cycling Queries



## Premo55 (Jun 2, 2004)

Okay, so my progress has really stagnated, so I'm thinking that I'm gonna get pretty aggressive with it:
- I'm gonna adopt a High/No/Low/No/High/No/Low/High cycle, to ensure that I get three no days a week. Doing the No/Low/High cycle there were weeks when I would only get two no days. 
- I'm gonna be doing two cardio sessions a week (I've been doing one session on a No/Low/High cycle). This will involve clean cardio. 

So I was wondering if anybody had input on these tweaks, and I've always wondered what nutrition post clean cardio would be like. I would imagine that I would be in a rather catabolic state post-clean-cardio on a no day, so my nutrition has been a whey shake, then followed with a whole meal about 1 1/2-2 hours later. I have a feelign that I might not be doing things right, though.

Peace.


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## Jodi (Jun 2, 2004)

I follow a similar cycle for cutting.  I cannot cut with the standard cycle because I have such a slow metabolism.  My typical is H/N/L/N repeat.

Personally, even with clean cardio, I think a protein shake is just fine with a meal afterwards.  Again, I have a slow metabolism so for me it takes alot to become catabolic.


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## Premo55 (Jun 2, 2004)

Jodi, H/N/L/N/repeat would involve a four 'no' day week, though, that seems like a bit much as far as caloric deficit goes. I think I'd pass out from hunger doing that.

Peace.


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## Jodi (Jun 2, 2004)

You maybe but no me.   I'm starting my comp diet at H/N/L/N/H/L/N and then in a few weeks it will be H/N/L/N repeat


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## Twin Peak (Jun 2, 2004)

A fairly decent, in between set-up, is to simply have each day of the week be assigned a particular type of day, and have 3 No Carb days, and 2 each of the High and Low days.

Schedule the No Carb days for your off days.


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## Premo55 (Jun 2, 2004)

LOL Jodi, sometimes you make it seem like you'd become a whale if you went on a cheat day.

TP, that's actually what I'm planning on doing. My off days have always been no days, anyhow. 

I hate cardio. Thankfully clean cardio is somewhat interesting and only takes 15-20 minutes. It kicks my ass more than any cardio I've ever done, though.

Peace.


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## Jodi (Jun 2, 2004)

Premo55 said:
			
		

> LOL Jodi, sometimes you make it seem like you'd become a whale if you went on a cheat day.
> 
> Peace.


  I do!  However, I have made a point to pig out the past few weekends.  I had to have my fill of junk before I started my comp diet


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## tjwes (Jun 2, 2004)

Try the method oulined here,I think it will help you out greatly!

*Carb`s... And Carb Cycling For Fat Loss 

by Tim Wescott

When dieting for a bodybuilding contest, I use an arsenal of weapons to lose unsightly excess bodyfat. One of the dietary procedures I institute, is to cycle my carbs. Carbohydrates are used as energy by the body,they fuel our workots, as well as providing ample fuel to be used throughout the course of the day. Ingesting carbs also replenishes our glucose and glycogen stores to prevent fatigue.Carb cycling allows you to still eat carbs from clean sources, without adding bodyfat, and cycling enables you to better utilize fat for burning as fuel, as opposed to burning carbs and hard-earned muscle tissue for fuel.

Are Carbs The Evil Enemy ??

Carbs are not the evil villian the media makes them out to be. Improper carb timing can however, cause these carbs to be stored as fat. Carbs are not essential to the body, but they make dieting, and eating in general, a lot easier and more pleasureable... as long as the carbs are from the proper sources. Carbs get a bad rap in the news lately, due to people jumping on the proverbial bandwagon to make a buck off the latest trend in dieting.... low carbs! There are tons of low carb foods hitting the grocery stores daily,everything from bread, to potato chips,can now be found with a low carb label.

A few years back it was all about bashing fats....remember?? 

What will it be next year....protein? We`ll just have to wait and see I guess, but they`ll think of something.

Junk Carbs !!

Carbohydrates eaten in excess, or eaten at the wrong times, can help to add adipose tissue to the body, but they are not a bad thing if incorporated into a diet properly. Eat the majority of your carbs early in the day and at the post-workout meal,tapering off on them as the day goes on.Never eat carbs late at night,opt for protein instead. Sugar laden junk foods are always bad, and they are comprised mostly of carbs, and fat. In turn, they should have no place in a serious bodybuilders diet. If people eliminated, or cut down on junk food alone, they would lose a lot of weight, and look and feel much better for it. Quitting junk food however, is usually too much to ask for most people. Most junk food is simply calorie dense garbage, totally devoid of any nutrients.

When I devise a diet for a trainee ,the first step I implement is to have them cut back on junk gradually, until it is totally eliminated from the diet, except for the rare occasional treat. Once it`s gone from the diet, it`s usually not thought about again, except for the occasional craving. Eating junk food is a conditioned thing that can, and should be eliminated. In this article I will outline a plan that still allows you to eat healthy amounts of good carbs, and still lose fat in the process. 

As I mentioned earlier, it`s not carbs that are the villian, but rather the type of carbs eaten, and the specific times that they are ingested. If you are indulging in junk food on a daily basis, then you will most likely get fatter. Another problem is eating carbs too close to bedtime, when your activity and expenditure of energy is lessened.This is not a mystery, and all that`s needed by the person looking to lose bodyfat is a lifestyle change !! Cut down on eating the crap, and you`ll be well on your way to better health,increased energy, and a leaner body.

The Proper Attitude !!

When talking to bodybuilder`s, and other`s that want to lose fat, or increase muscular definition for competition purposes, I often find a trend in their thinking that they can still eat things in moderate portions that are usually considered taboo, while on most diets. Terms like "refeed","cheat meal,"and "cheat day," almost always come up. These ideas can be used to your advantage, but in my opinion, you should wait until you are pretty close to aheiving your desired bodyfat % goals before even thinking about them at all. Yes folks, I`m an "old school" type of guy who will tell you right off the bat, that you MUST make some sacrifices, and give up all negative eating habits to acheive these goals if you want to succeed in losing fat or winning a contest!!

I typically diet down for bodybuilding contests acheiving approximately 3 - 5% bodyfat. Did I accomplish this while cheating and eating the occasional junk treat? My answer is a resounding NO. I suffered a bit here and there, but once I flip the switch in my mind to eat "clean" I do just that. There can be no half measures. You must get into the proper mindset and stay completely focused on acheiving your goals, if you screw around and cheat once, you will repeat this cheating again and again. I know this from early attempts at getting cut-up,and from experiences learned from training my clients. Remain steadfast on your mission to getting lean, and you most definately will.

Cycling Carbs !

What we do when we cycle carbs in the manner that I advise, is to have three low carb days, followed by two higher carb days, to aid in recovery, and to replenish glycogen. This gives us just the right amount of carbs to be used as fuel without becoming an excessive amount. Always use carbs from clean foods not junk foods of course.

The most important thing about carb cycling, in my opinion, is too never go too high throughout the diet, except for the latter stages, and only if necessary. We`ll discuss this aspect of the diet later in this article!



What I recommend as a starting point, to determine just how many carbs you should eat on your highest day, is to eat 1 to 1.5 grams of carbs per pound of bodyweight.

Start out using the latter number and adjust according to your results. I might add that it is vital to keep a nutrition journal when cycling carbs to be able to chart progress and make adjustments during the diet. This takes the guesswork out of dieting, and can also be looked back upon in the future to see how the body responded to certain tactics, and is an invaluable tool. 

NOTE:Do not count fibrous vegetables into your total carb count for the day.They are low in calories and carbs and are a good source of fiber and do not count in the scheme of things while carb cycling.Only count starchy complex carbs.

Some tweaking will of course be necessary for most, as some of us are a bit more "carb sensitive" than others. Activity level, training intensity level, age,as well as sex, will determine how much you will need to adjust things, but as a rule I have found that 200 grams of carbs as your highest amount, is a good place to start. After a time you can decide whether you want to raise them a bit, or lower them, based on your results, and your body`s feedback. It is a good practice to try this technique well in advance of your contest to sort of "learn" your body, and how it responds to this procedure.

Below is an example of my 5 day carb cycling method using 200 grams of carbs as the highest amount on a high day.

Day-1)150 grams

Day-2)100 grams

Day-3) 50 grams

Day-4)125 grams

Day-5)200 grams

Repeat cycle as written, throughout the course of the diet.

Essentially what I do is drop 50 grams of carbs over the course of the first 3 days,then increase by 75 grams, for the next two days. Some people prefer to raise fat intake on the lower carb days, or to increase fats on their off training days,to make up for the lost calories on the lower carb days. You can do this if you choose to, but I find it interferes with the fat burning process as fat is a calorie dense macronutrient that is needed by the body, but builds no muscle. 

I also beleive that without the fat increase, you will burn more fat as fuel on the low carb days,especially when training hard,dieting,and doing cardiovascular workouts. Besides, as far as calories go,protein and carbs are not calorie dense and you must be in a calorie deficit to lose bodyfat for a lengthly period of time such as a 16 week contest prep diet or just a fat loss diet for the fitness enthusiast,no matter if he or she competes or not.

Reaching A Plateau !

Eventually, you will more than likely reach a fat burning plateau, and this is the time where we can implement a "tweak" in the cycle plan. The body is resistant to change asnd it will eventually adapt to any stressors put upon it so after a time you may stop burning fat as fuel.

This is a good time to suddenly eat 3-4 good high carb days in a row ,or to simply eat a "cheat" meal or have a "cheat" day, just to trip up the metabolism, and get it jumpstarted so to speak, thus enabling the fat burning process to resume.

Another way you can also accomplish this is to go to zero carbs for 3 days and 3 days only.

This will accomplish the same thing as the 3-4 high carb days or the "cheats". This is the only time to take fibrous vegetables into consideration, as no carbs whatsoever should be ingested during the 3 zero carb days. Do not stay at zero carbs for any longer than 3 days, and never go below 50 carbs as your lowest amount, throughout the entire length of the diet other than the occasional zero carb 3 day period. Any lower, and the brain suffers, and thinking becomes cloudy, as the brain needs a certain amount of carbs to function optimally.

Complex Carbs!!

These are the best sources of clean carbs to use when dieting in general, and when cycling carbs:

Baked Potatoes

Yams

Sweet Potatoes

Brown Rice

Oatmeal

Cream Of Wheat

Grits

I do not eat bread of any kind, or dairy products when dieting, and I recommend that you don`t either, to help optimize fat burning.The only time to eat simple carbs other than vegetables is at the post-workout meal when you should take in 50 grams of dextrose, with a whey protein shake, immediately after training.You do add these carbs from dextrose into your daily total, because even though they are utilized efficiently by the body at the post-workout feeding, they are still carbs, and should count towards your total for the day. Don`t be too concerned about the glycemic index of the foods,but instead, be more concerned with total carbs ingested for the day.

It should never be too high!!

I also recommend HIIT cardio while dieting, and a high protein intake throughout the diet, as this will help to ensure that you retain the hard earned muscle that you`ve garnered from your training.

I hope this article helps you out in your quest for a better physique, and better health, via a lean muscular body.

Good luck,and train hard !!!

My Website:

http://www.geocities.com/timbuktuweights/

My Forum:

http://timwescott.proboards18.com/index.cgi

*


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## senimoni (Jun 2, 2004)

I always thought grits were high on the gi, doesn't matter anyway b/c I can't have it drowned in butter


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## tjwes (Jun 2, 2004)

Don`t worry too much about the GI,but instead concentrate on eating clean, and worrying more about total carbs ingested for the day and don`t exceed the limit`s you`ve allowed yourself.

I know certain people who get shredded, and win show`s, eating things like grits,white potatoes,and rice cakes!


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## jaim91 (Jun 3, 2004)

But on  the author of the article's "no" days, he still has 50 grams? I don't get it


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## Premo55 (Jun 3, 2004)

Um, I wouldn't follow that plan. I posted this thread for people who follow TP's blueprint.

Peace.


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## Akateros (Jun 3, 2004)

Hey Premo, are you still counting on high days?


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## tjwes (Jun 3, 2004)

Premo,that plan works trust me!
Can you give me a reasonor two why you wouldn`t follow it?


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## Premo55 (Jun 3, 2004)

Because.
I know for a fact that TP's has worked for several people, and it's a lot less complicated than the plan you delineated.

Akateros, sadly, I am. I'm too anal like that, seriously. My carbs are tentatively set to 2.5 per pound on high days right now.

Peace.


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## argon (Jun 3, 2004)

chan return to niketalk immediately 
please?


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## Twin Peak (Jun 4, 2004)

tjwes said:
			
		

> Premo,that plan works trust me!
> Can you give me a reasonor two why you wouldn`t follow it?


Tim, you are a little odd.

I have been following a different form of Carb Cycling for the better part of 10 years, and have had published articles on it in Mind and Muscle for well over a year.

There are dozens of folks on this board, and hundreds on many others, who have followed the plan I as have outlined it with success.

So, its not that people think that your plan "won't work", its that you come in here with a tweaked version of my diet, that is posted on your own website, and you link to your own (competitive) forum, and you act as if you have just given everyone an entirely novel approach to fat loss.

Oddly enough, you have a fair number of posts, yet act as if you have no knowledge of the above.

In fact, there are dozens of threads here about my approach, dozens of journals detailing the same, and indeed, my article is cited to and copied in a sticky above.

So if you don't know why some may be put off by your posts, reread this post five or six times.

P.S.  If it comes off to members as if I am irritated, I am.  On top of all of this, I was informed yesterday that there is someone on the t-mag forum literally copying and pasting from my articles and passing it off as her own diet.  So yes, I am annoyed.


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## Monolith (Jun 4, 2004)

Twin Peak said:
			
		

> P.S. If it comes off to members as if I am irritated, I am. On top of all of this, I was informed yesterday that there is someone on the t-mag forum literally copying and pasting from my articles and passing it off as her own diet. So yes, I am annoyed.


A-ha!  So thats what the "Tampa Terry" comment was all about?


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## tjwes (Jun 4, 2004)

Twin Peak said:
			
		

> Tim, you are a little odd.
> 
> I have been following a different form of Carb Cycling for the better part of 10 years, and have had published articles on it in Mind and Muscle for well over a year.
> 
> ...


TP,I am well aware of your articles, but I must say the way I cycle carbs was taught to me from Chris Aceto, who trained in the same gym I did during the eighties,so it seems that you hardly "invented" the concept of carb cycling.

I`ve read your article here, but I think my way of cycling is better for me personally, as I typically get down between 3-5 % bodyfat while using it.

I`m not trying to discredit you or your methods, but to say I`m odd, and that everyone should simply ascribe to your way of cycling carbs is a big statement in my opinion.
I wrote my article long before I ever saw yours,and mine is nothing at all like yours except for the fact that we both recommend cycling carbs for fat loss.

No disrespect to you, but I`m a trainer also, and have trained hundreds of people myself in gyms, and on the internet.

I also write for four websites, and my articles are featured in two E-Books.
I have won 46 awards in bodybuilding and powerlifting, as well as trained many competitive bodybuilders.
So in my opinion I`m more than qualified to write an article about any method I have used personally, and to advocate it`s use.

As far as being odd goes,I have no idea what you mean, but since this is a public forum, and not your own personal message board I see nothing odd in posting my thoughts.

Personally I wish you all the best and have nothing against you in spite of your condescending post.

Peace!


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## Twin Peak (Jun 4, 2004)

tjwes said:
			
		

> TP,I am well aware of your articles, but I must say the way I cycle carbs was taught to me from Chris Aceto, who trained in the same gym I did during the eighties,so it seems that you hardly "invented" the concept of carb cycling.


I never claimed I did.  Indeed, my articles specifically states the contrary.



			
				tjwes said:
			
		

> I`ve read your article here, but I think my way of cycling is better for me personally, as I typically get down between 3-5 % bodyfat while using it.


As have I, and as have several others on this board.



			
				tjwes said:
			
		

> I`m not trying to discredit you or your methods, but to say I`m odd, and that everyone should simply ascribe to your way of cycling carbs is a big statement in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Twin Peak (Jun 4, 2004)

Monolith said:
			
		

> A-ha! So thats what the "Tampa Terry" comment was all about?


Yep.


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## tjwes (Jun 4, 2004)

TP,If you agree with most of what I`m saying isn`t that a bit odd on your part? 

Why the animosity in your original post towards me if you are in agreement with most of what I said.

I certainly didn`t steal your ideas but in your opriginal post it sounds like you think I did with your comment about my "tweaking" you thoughts.

I still don`t see how my posts are odd to you but that`s your opinon which you are certainly entitled to.

I accept your apology ,although it wasn`t necessary.

I just wanted to clarify that I didn`t steal anything from you and wouldn`t stoop that low anyway.
Have a great day ,and good luck in future endeavors.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 4, 2004)

No, I agree that you haven't stolen anything from me.  Again, its just the manner in which you posted.  Premo's response, however, is indicative of the point I was trying to make, and why some might have been put off by your post.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 4, 2004)

And who said I wasn't odd?


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## tjwes (Jun 4, 2004)

I`ve been known to be a bit odd myself at times.

If I offended anyone with my posts it surely wasn`t intentional, or out of malice.

I only try to help out folks with their fitness problems, and I also train people online FREE of charge.

Gopro,Muscle Mayhem,ironage.us,Xtreme-USA,Premeire Muscle,all must like my "oddness" in posting, since I mod for all of them at their request!

Have a good one!!


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## Arnold (Jun 4, 2004)

tjwes said:
			
		

> Gopro,Muscle Mayhem,ironage.us,Xtreme-USA,Premeire Muscle,all must like my "oddness" in posting, since I mod for all of them at their request!


wow, you must have A LOT of free time on your hands! 

I rarely even make to any other bodybuilding/fitness boards.


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## tjwes (Jun 4, 2004)

LOL !! 

Robert,how`s it going? Great board you have here!
I just make the rounds to the board when I can.

Since moving to a sleepy little one horse town in upstate NY I no longer have a thriving personal training business but am trying my best to increase clientele.

Eric(Gopro), speaks very highly of you, and if it`s OK ,I`d like to e-mail you and discuss something he and I had talked about.

Thanks!!


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## Arnold (Jun 4, 2004)

tjwes said:
			
		

> Eric(Gopro), speaks very highly of you, and if it`s OK ,I`d like to e-mail you and discuss something he and I had talked about.
> 
> Thanks!!


sure, send me as much money as you want. 

just send me a PM.


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## tjwes (Jun 4, 2004)

OK,thanks!


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## Premo55 (Jun 4, 2004)

What has my thread become? Haha
To reiterate, I was asking Jodi/TP/any other Carb Cycling dieters for their opinions on several concerns I have, not for someone to prescribe a brand new diet.

Peace.


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## tjwes (Jun 4, 2004)

Premo,I had no idea who your post was adressed to.

Sorry about hijacking your thread.


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