# VPX Products: Warning



## Testosterone (Dec 25, 2003)

Another one that rates high on my scammer list. I'm well aware that we get lots of questions about these products so if any should pop up, feel free to refer them to this post. 

VPX is yet another company that delights in jeopardizing the legal status of prohormones by making their stuff sound like steroids. Both names are modelled after the popular nandrolone decanoate product Deca-Durabolin, and the first combine with Para from Parabolan and the second with var from anavar or nilevar. All popular black market steroids. And you would trust these people to have your best interest at heart ? Now what kind of example are we setting for our young ones with giving them their first taste of steroids by introducing them this way ? What if they hear names of steroids and see daddy is taking Decavar ... They'll think you are a crook. 

But the products themselves are no better quality in muscle gain therefor. Before I get into these two products individually, I would like to adress this liposomal delivery system. Now this is a sublingual techniques where they claim to have made them fat-soluble and that orals and cyclos are not fat-soluble. Ok, Now listen carefully, this is important. Prohormones are steroidogenic. that means they are made from the product cholesterol, which is the prime storage of FAT for energy. Now personally I can't think of anything more Fat-soluble than fat, can you ? That means orals are highly fat-soluble. Cyclo's are not and with reason. To get a prohormone to absorb sublingually you need it to pass the sebaceous mucus gland. This gland is "hydrophyllic" or water-loving. That means a fat-soluble substance cannot pass through very well. What cyclo does is coat the prohormone. the inside of the cyclo is lipophyllic meaning its easy to attach the prohormone inside, but the outside is hydrophyllic meaning the whole thing (cyclo-prohormone) becomes water-soluble and can pass through the gland into the blood at a high rate. Now these guys use sublingual (lipojection they call it) technology as well, but they went through all this trouble ti make it lipophyllic ? Which it already was ? That means this stuff has lower efficacy than an oral. 

Looking at sublingual technology its also important that you note that the ceiling of delivery has been established at 25 mg of prohormones (higher serum levels than 50 mg, tested at Eastern Michigan university)That means if you get 1 mg of this stuff inside you, its a lot. The effective dose starts at 250-300 mg. Something worth considering. Not that it helps much with what's in it. 

Paradeca is a product using this technology to bring you : Nor-diol, 4AD and androtriol. I'll give you the first two, when delivered properly are great prohormones. But androtriol ? This stuff isn't even active in the body, much less anabolic. What kind of crap is that ? Somebody needs to do their chemistry homework. Now here are some interesting excerpts from the VPX promo's : 

After entering the bloodstream, a powerful pharmacological phenomena medically known as pharmacokinetics occurs when PARADECA???S multilayered phospholipids naturally break down dispersing billions of prohormone and phytochemical molecules into the body. These substances potentially influence luteinizing action, antiaromatase activity, increase receptor affinity and also allow the intrinsic action of 19 Norandrostenediol, 4-androstenediol and ANDROTRIOL to take place 

Phenomenon known as pharmacokinetics ? That literally means every pharmacological substance that has any effect in the body. I think their terminology needs some work too. Now supplying fats normally will give you higher T-levels. But supplying it with 4AD which inhibits the action of the natural T-axis will actually give you some really bad results on your next cholesterol check. What it will not do is inhibit aromatase action (if it even delivered the 4AD there would be an increase in estrogenic output), as expressed earlier luteinizing action is diminished severely and not stimulated, and if they wanted to increase receptor affinity they should have come up with a hydrosomal delivery method instead. All this goes to show that this stuff is utter crap, and utter expensive craps. i will give it to you right here, black on white, that this will give you NO GAINS for ONLY 100+ dollars at the cheapest. Good luck. 

NowDecavar is very similar in that it also contains inactive ingredients like androtriol and an inferior method of delivery, this one also contains : Tribulus and both flavones of methoxy. Now methoxyisoflavone is absolutely useless, this has been shown many times. All tests even claiming it works were done in-house, on rats by the manufacturing company (Chinoin) and date back to 1985. that's what i would call outdated. Most of the info out there now is still based on a 1977 patent application. It simply does not work and new research recently published in MD showed that it may be potentially harmful to health and gains. Ipriflavone is even worse. Chinoin tested many flavones before making methoxy, including ipriflavone, and even they deemed it unworthy. here is a company that patented and marketed the worst crap in the history of the industry, and they deemed this stuff unworthy. Does that make you want to take it ? Ok, tribulus maybe. Well, if you are over 40 and are looking for an easy way to get a boner, trib is for you. But you'd still need 1500-2000 mg. As for anabolic properties, trib is very limited in its actions and will do you no good, especially if you are a young athlete looking for the maximum of gains. 

In conclusion I have to warn you that similar products containing only methoxy and an ECA stack also named after a steroid were also grossly marketed by this same company, so beware. Apart from the fact that these guys too are very creative in advertising, i have to deem this one as the top of my scammer list. They definitely need some lessons in biochem and terminology and need to get some facts straight. Their complex words (at least to newbies) make it hard to see through their facade for rookies, but those who have been around will tell you what crap this really is. 

So please, my warning to you, avoid this company and anything it touches. They are a mockery to this industry and everything our sport stands for. And they have the guts to sell you this crap for only hundreds of dollars when the base compound for a single bottle costs no more than 8-10 dollars to make. That has to make you wonder. Unfortunately there are still those who equate price with quality, well in this business, i'd say think again.


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## Testosterone (Dec 25, 2003)

The above comments are from Big Cat from BBdotcom.


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## Randy (Dec 25, 2003)

Doesn't Gopro promote VPX products?


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## Testosterone (Dec 25, 2003)

Yeah He does. He had a share fair of his fairytales to say in other boards also but this is ineveitable.
VPX is Muscletech in making!
Why blame others ?


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## oaktownboy (Dec 25, 2003)

Big Cat is a well known expert on PH and steroid-derived compounds.


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## Randy (Dec 25, 2003)

I don't believe in any of that stuff myself Testosterone.   I think most of it is a waste of money.   People get attracted by the fancy marketing pictures on the bottles.  They see big muscles draped around a bottle and they think it's the miracle solution for muscle mass .   I'm sure there are some products that help, but I guess I am just old fashioned. I take the known good products that body builders have been taking for years...  Like creatine, protein, glutamine, zma, and basic vitamins...   That is all I need.
Well in addition to a good diet and hard lifting.


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## Testosterone (Dec 25, 2003)

Thats exactly I mean to say. 
I hope this clears "The Air"
I hope everybody knows something else about VPX products.


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## Dale Mabry (Dec 25, 2003)

I know their Micellean MRP is the best for what I am doing, never tried their prohormones.


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## plouffe (Dec 25, 2003)

GOPRO BIATCH THEM OUT!


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## plouffe (Dec 25, 2003)

hahaha


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## Flex (Dec 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> They see big muscles draped around a bottle and they think it's the miracle cure for muscle mass .



EXACTLY!

nicely put Randy. 

Bottom line..........people want the easy way out. they want a miracle pill or powder that will instantly turn them into "Supermen" like the guys in the MusclTech ads ("Lee Priest looked like this before [fat ass MF'er who gets maaad outta shape in the offseason] and then after taking MuscleTech, VOILA [shredded and in contest shape])

the arguement goes both ways though. 

obviously you gotta blame the companies (VPX, Muscletech) etc. for blatantly "false advertising" their products. Chris Cormier did NOT get like that from taking Cell-Tech. Every ad in FLEX mag. is BS. 

on the other hand, we should take a look at the Gov't. for some reason, i guess cuz of the lack of scientific evidence to both prove and disprove results, but for whatever reason they don't "look" and "judge" supps. like they do with normal foods. i would think if the gov't was so against prohormones, they'd try to get some evidence to back up why.....instead of "they are like steroids" (which the gov't knows little about).


i guess what i'm trying to say is....why doesnt teh gov. treat supps. like cigarettes and alcohol. decades ago, the Marlboro man was made to look godlike. people looked at that and were amazed with his "manliness" etc. then teh gov't stepped in, and put warnings on the side. Now, cigarette companies are allowed to advertise, but not with the "glamorizing" shit they used back in the day, as they are flooded with Gov't warnings.

Same with alcohol. People know that alcohol is not good for you, BUT, at the same time, they know that they can purchase it and know EXACTLY what it does to your body (in other words, they know when they drink they'll get drunk. instead of thinking when they drink they are gonna look like Chris Cormier)...


The Gov't is honeslty retarded for banning prohormones. IMO steroids shouldnt even be illegal. Cigarettes and Alcohol have killed 99% more people than steroids, yet for some reason people can smoke and drink their lives away...........


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## david (Dec 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> 
> The Gov't is honeslty retarded for banning prohormones. IMO steroids shouldnt even be illegal. Cigarettes and Alcohol have killed 99% more people than steroids, yet for some reason people can smoke and drink their lives away...........




I'd have to agree with that too and the statistics are off the wall to those who died or ruined their lives from cigarettes and alcohol.

But on another note, VPX and the "false claims or exaggerations" so on...

Well, I wouldn't limit it to just VPX and Muscletech.  Why not include ALL supplement companies because they make far worse claims than the imaginable?


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## Randy (Dec 25, 2003)

I agree as well, and that has been the steroid users favorite comparison, "Why are cigarrettes and alcohol legal, but steroids are not?"  

But you can buy illegal drugs right from the internet.  The internet black hole in which the government apparantly still does not know how to control.  But then again do we want their control?  Well that is a whole new topic? I think it is much easier for these supplement companies to pass false claims and bogus products through the internet than anywhere else.  But they will do it direct as well as long as they get away with it.    Well they're not getting my money for their bogus garbage.


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## gopro (Dec 26, 2003)

This was an old post put out by Big Cat who is a very well respected expert on many topics related to bodybuilding. I think that in general Big Cat is an excellent educator and writer on all bodybuilding topics and has done well for this industry.

That said, what he says in the above post is a CROCK OF SH%T!

VPX is THE most attacked company on the planet...bar none. Do you know why??? Jealousy!!!!!!!!!!!! When you are on top, EVERYONE and their mother tries to knock you off! How do they ALWAYS do it? Not by talking about their own products, but by trying to ruin the good name of VPX. Its just like politicians do...you see smear campaigns like this all of the time..."he did this...she did that...he sucks...she sucks!" Its childish and pathetic!

They talk about the names of VPX products "mirroring" that of steroids and how THAT is why they will soon be banned. Please...give me a break! Yeah, and that is why ephedra was banned and why the gov't would even like to regulate proteins and amino acids! Not to mention that there are dozens of companies out there that market their products with "steroid like names!" But do you hear one word about them? Nope, not a one! Why? They are not on top!

Are VPXs prices a bit higher than most? Yup...but they also use the finest raw materials and the finest manufacturing processes. BMW costs more than Toyota and that is b/c BMW outperforms Toyota on the road. Things that are better cost more...period!

As far as the liposomal delivery system and the polylipid delivery system...they can argue all they want (probably b/c they are pissed they did not come out with it on their own), but the stuff works plain and simple! Lipsomal delivery is a legitimate way to get many compounds into the system more efficiently and polylipid delivery is an improvement on it. Paradeca, the first liposomal delivery product became VPXs first multi-million dollar seller (and still sells well today with no advertising spent on it) b/c people use it, found it to work very well, and reordered it! Yes, liposomes suck but transdermal is perfect...please! Wrong!

Yes, I work for VPX...I started here a few months ago, however, I carried VPX in my gym for years before I worked at this amazing company. I trained clients from beginners to national level bodybuilders and athletes, and I put every one of them on one or more VPX products. Quality is quality. What works, works! VPX is top of the line, quality products that WORK...BIG TIME!! Stop your bitching and deal with it...VPX is GROWING and will continue to because along with a few other companies, they put out the best sports nutrition products on the planet. Period!


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## prolangtum (Dec 26, 2003)

Although some of VPX's ads are over the top, and their products are overpriced (I know many companies who get the creme de la creme of raw materials too) they are not crap. They will work. Marketing aside, they do carry a decent array of products.  Oh no, I agreed with GoPro.

Mark it down, Decemeber 26, 2003, 9:45 am CST.


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## gopro (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> Although some of VPX's ads are over the top, and their products are overpriced (I know many companies who get the creme de la creme of raw materials too) they are not crap. They will work. Marketing aside, they do carry a decent array of products.  Oh no, I agreed with GoPro.
> 
> Mark it down, Decemeber 26, 2003, 9:45 am CST.



Oh my God it IS Christmas!


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## Testosterone (Dec 26, 2003)

If that is so, then whats wrong with Biotest?
GoPro must understand that there are chinks in every armour as far as Supplement Industry is concerned.
I read that WHOLE THREAD which consisted about 7 odd pages!

No matter how supreme their products are -  VPX products are OVERPRICED.

Just for an example: VPX Micellean (Micellar Casein)

Its the costliest protein on planet. I dunno how much you guys are buying that for !!

VPX buys it @ $5/Lb

(That's True)

Supreme quality need not be overpriced. Ask ON for that!


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## gopro (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Testosterone *_
> If that is so, then whats wrong with Biotest?
> GoPro must understand that there are chinks in every armour as far as Supplement Industry is concerned.
> I read that WHOLE THREAD which consisted about 7 odd pages!
> ...




DPS Nutrition:

VPX Micellean 2 lbs $29.50
Moleclar Nutrition Sustained Protein 2 lbs $30.99

Oops, guess VPX isn't the most expensive on the planet.


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## nacnac972 (Dec 26, 2003)

All I know is that in 26 days I gained 10 lbs from syngex I and II.It was exspensive but I got great results on my first PH cycle.The sides that i got included nothing at all!!!!!My friend is  my size(not to say are bodies are the same)and was on the same diet and gained 5 solid pounds from S1+.He  cant wait to try VPXs products.All I say is everybody responds differently so give you opinons and use what you like.Oh 1 more thing GP whatever company is on top like my company everybody hates you.JUst like in sports.everybody wants to see the champs fall.


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## Testosterone (Dec 26, 2003)

I don't give Molecular Nutrition damn sht!

GroPro - The thing is:

It is not fair to sell Micellar Casein at even $30 when you're getting it at $5/Lb. To win customer's heart the price should  have been under $23

As far quality go, dont say VPX is unique. Every company who sells Isolates or Micellar Casein get it from couple of companies because there ain't more than 3 companies in USA which are manufacturing 90% Micellar Casein!

I have contacts with TOP Pharma Companies and know all the wholesale prices of each & every thing. Believe it or not your Ph's are way costly!

GoPro, for once you must admit your Ph's are overpriced. I think Big Cat said you the same thing.


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## gopro (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Testosterone *_
> I don't give Molecular Nutrition damn sht!
> 
> GroPro - The thing is:
> ...



You stated that Micellean is the most exensive protein on the 
planet and I quickly refuted that claim. Also, Micellean's overall profile and the EXACT proteins they use are exclusive (in the sense that they use a better combo and a higher micellar content) to VPX.

They can charge more for their prohormones b/c in general, they work better. Their liposomal and polylipid delivery is costly as well...more costly than sticking the powder in a capsule.

And yes, VPX also chooses to use the coolest labels and put out the best graphics in their ads as well as put on the biggest show at the Olympia, Arnold, SOS, and other competitions. They are just a big time company and sales are on the rise. Every thing about them is first class and state of the art! They are the Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus of the supplement industry! Deal with it bro.


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## Testosterone (Dec 26, 2003)

But I thought that Beverly International is the Bentley of the supplement industry.


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## gopro (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Testosterone *_
> But I thought that Beverly International is the Bentley of the supplement industry.



They are.


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## Testosterone (Dec 26, 2003)

You must file PATENTS then!!
For all your liposomal and polylipid deliveries.
Also if you feel your Micellean is one step better, go and file Patents! 
Why don't you do it?

BTW Biotest filed for Microemulsion Tech.. Is that too special a achievement?


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## gopro (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Testosterone *_
> You must file PATENTS then!!
> For all your liposomal and polylipid deliveries.
> Also if you feel your Micellean is one step better, go and file Patents!
> ...



Ask the CEO.

This is getting silly bro. I'm not going to have this silly discussion with you. It is boring and tiresome. Here is your solution...don't buy VPX...ok? End of story. Happy holidays.


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## Dante B. (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Testosterone *_
> It is not fair to sell Micellar Casein at even $30 when you're getting it at $5/Lb. To win customer's heart the price should  have been under $23
> 
> I have contacts with TOP Pharma Companies and know all the wholesale prices of each & every thing. Believe it or not your Ph's are way costly!



Speaking in general, and putting VPX aside:

Do tell me, with this knowledge you have, aren't the "top" pharmaceutical companies making quite the nice profit.

Or put another way:

The customer determines what is fair, and what isn't. You stating "[it] should have been under $23," based on the cost of material alone, is absolutely ridiculous (and again, I'm not speaking for or against VPX, in terms of what's overpriced and that which isn't).

Question(s):

What role do profits play?

How are profits determined?

And what is the ability for you to earn a decent, or even substantial income based upon?

For the last question, if you say your "hard work," you've obviously missed the point.

Do you know how much it costs to manufacture a CD? About 50 cents, or so. If you purchase it for $15, have you been ripped off? What made that CD valuable to you, or anyone? Original prices of raw materials do not (alone) determine final prices, and what's fair, or what isn't, cannot be judged by original prices.

If that were the case, wherever it is you're working, let me tell you:

You're ripping people off.


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## once was fat (Dec 26, 2003)

Wow this is a great debate.  I learn so much when top notch people go at it. (Im not being sarcastic either).  I was actually able to drop some pure knowledge on my family about supplements and weight trainning thanks to everyone here.

Thanks for teaching.


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## prolangtum (Dec 26, 2003)

Testosterone,
I believe elsewhere you stated you sell Biotest in India or somewhere. VPX may be one thing, but Biotest? Please, I as well as others could go off on a nice little tangent about the horrors of Biotest advertising, and the overpricing as well.


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## Randy (Dec 26, 2003)

To bad you couldn't get all this stuff at Costco 
Well at least I get a 6lb quality tub of quality protein for an reasonable price of only 20 bucks.    Now that is what I'm talking about.


That even makes the wolf smile


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## once was fat (Dec 26, 2003)

Randy what is that stuff called at costco?


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## Randy (Dec 26, 2003)

It's called "High Quality Pro-Rated"  100% Whey Protein available in both Bavarian chocolate and your classic vanilla 

Here is the products website, you can get the specs.
It looks like they charge more if you order from the website though.  Costco buys in such large quantities so they can afford to provide much better values to the public. 

www.proteinusa.net


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## gopro (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> Testosterone,
> I believe elsewhere you stated you sell Biotest in India or somewhere. VPX may be one thing, but Biotest? Please, I as well as others could go off on a nice little tangent about the horrors of Biotest advertising, and the overpricing as well.



Wow good point...and most of their products don't even really work either.

Umm, am I saying good point to prolangtum? This is just getting weird now...


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## david (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Ask the CEO.
> 
> This is getting silly bro. I'm not going to have this silly discussion with you. It is boring and tiresome. Here is your solution...don't buy VPX...ok? End of story. Happy holidays.



Amen, Gopro!  Amen!!!  All of what you said here Gopro is simply put especially the last part.  DON'T BUY VPX guys.  I favor VPX along with other products as well and I don't mind paying higher for it either.


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## Randy (Dec 26, 2003)

Gopro,   Have you met J'bo yet?   Where she at?   Are you holding her captive


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## prolangtum (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Wow good point...and most of their products don't even really work either.
> 
> Umm, am I saying good point to prolangtum? This is just getting weird now...


Its the holidays, my GF is out of town, I guess Im just lonely and dont want conflict 

Dont worry, every thing will resume back to normal once shes back tommorow


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## gopro (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> Its the holidays, my GF is out of town, I guess Im just lonely and dont want conflict
> 
> Dont worry, every thing will resume back to normal once shes back tommorow



Looking foward to it


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## gopro (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Gopro,   Have you met J'bo yet?   Where she at?   Are you holding her captive



Nah, J'bo found another to play with...as long as she is happy...that is all that is important!


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## gopro (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by david *_
> Amen, Gopro!  Amen!!!  All of what you said here Gopro is simply put especially the last part.  DON'T BUY VPX guys.  I favor VPX along with other products as well and I don't mind paying higher for it either.



Thanks buddy...ALWAYS good to see you around!


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## Arnold (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by 1Fast400 *_
> Are you still claiming they have above GMP certification?  Get GMP certification on your plant, THEN you can talk about the finest quality.



what is GMP certification?


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## 1Fast400 (Dec 26, 2003)

http://www.nowfoods.com/index.php/GMP-certification/NNFA/cat_id/1294


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## gopro (Dec 26, 2003)

Tread thinly Fast, this isn't bbing.com


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## Randy (Dec 26, 2003)

Sorry to hear that Gopro...Well you know how woman are man?
They can be so unpredictable.

You know the motto -- If it was meant to be, it would be .
You'll find another one Go'pro... lots of fish in the sea 
Ya never seem to find em when your looking anyway.  It's when your not looking is when you find the right one.



> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Nah, J'bo found another to play with...as long as she is happy...that is all that is important!


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## KataMaStEr (Dec 26, 2003)

I don???t see the reason why you are deleting Mike posts. How does this work? Whoever comments you don???t like you just delete; just like that.  Last time I cheeked discussions here ware allowed.

Or did 1fast deleted his post himself?


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## Arnold (Dec 26, 2003)

good question.


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## gopro (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by KataMaStEr *_
> I don???t see the reason why you are deleting Mike posts. How does this work? Whoever comments you don???t like you just delete; just like that.  Last time I cheeked discussions here ware allowed.
> 
> Or did 1fast deleted his post himself?



No, I deleted it b/c he is not productive but simply a VPX hater. He sells their products and makes money from them but takes every opportunity to drag them through the mud. He is not here to discuss, he is here to start a pissing match. Sorry, he has no power here.


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## gopro (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> good question.



You want this board to become like wannabebig or bbing.com? No, you don't. Debate is fine, but I have no tolerance for the likes of 1fast and his load of crap.


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## 1Fast400 (Dec 26, 2003)

It is just a simple question.  You talk about great quality, I would assume with such a statement you could back it up.  All I want to know is what do you have that supports their products being made in a quality manufacturing location?


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## gopro (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by 1Fast400 *_
> It is just a simple question.  You talk about great quality, I would assume with such a statement you could back it up.  All I want to know is what do you have that supports their products being made in a quality manufacturing location?



I have an idea Mikey...I personally invite you to come to VPX headquarters to check out the entire facility. Then you can see what a first class operation it is. And maybe you can meet Jack and tell HIM how much VPX sucks. Sound good?


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## Dante B. (Dec 26, 2003)

I'd like Testosterone to answer the questions that I posed. Everyone is more than welcome to do so, as well, as I wouldn't mind getting a good economics debate out of this (a general debate, and one specific to this industry).

Setting aside VPX, many people have thoughts--and questions, perhaps---regarding this industry as a whole. I wouldn't mind fielding them, on a philosophical level.


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## 1Fast400 (Dec 26, 2003)

> I have an idea Mikey...I personally invite you to come to VPX headquarters to check out the entire facility. Then you can see what a first class operation it is. And maybe you can meet Jack and tell HIM how much VPX sucks. Sound good?



1) VPX doesn't "suck", they are just overpriced.  Nothing wrong with that if people are willing to pay.  I think the term suck is often used when overpriced should be.

2) Why not just show some pictures of where everything is made if it is so nice?

If one of the selling points of VPX is going to be the quality of manufacturing, don't you think they should show where the stuff is made?


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## 1Fast400 (Dec 26, 2003)

btw, all I'm trying to get you to do is back up a claim.  If you can prove to me and everyone else that this stuff is made in a quality facility, then I'll gladly tell everyone that.


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## ponyboy (Dec 26, 2003)

Why does it always have to be philisophical  

And Dante, when did you put a quote from the head of the Church of Satan in your sig?  

My .02 is the same as I'm sure many others who don't bother to respond to this.  Much as with training, diet, etc...if you don't like it or it isn't working for you then don't use it.  I for one commend GoPro for letting us all know the results of his experiments and he used to do it long before he worked for VPX.  Now that he does, he is under an obligation to promote their product.  If he thought their products were crap, he wouldn't work for them.  If McDonald's offered me a job I would not work there because I think their food is disgusting and kills people.  

Companies exist because of the cycle of supply and demand.  They must create demand in order to sell their supply, which is what VPX and Muscletech do through their advertising.  VPS has actually done an excellent job of using the internet to promote their products.  Before six months ago I had never heard of VPX, and now it is all you hear about.  Coincidence?  No.  I have yet to ever see a VPX ad in a magazine (in Canada).  Muscletech is rampant because of their excessive use of the magazine media.  VPX is doing the same with the internet.  They are getting free positive testimonials every day for their products.  Kudos to them for utilizing this form of marketing - and they don't even have to pay for it!  No wonder they can afford flashy sites, lots of on site promotion at trade shows and hot women.  I think Eminem said it best when he said that even if people are talking about you in a negative way, they are still talking about you.  Every thread that talks about how VPX sucks probably drives more customers into their website to check it out. 

I think what was said before about if you don't like it, don't use it should stand for pretty much anything.  Before using any product, do your research, make your decision and if it doesn't work or you don't like it, don't buy it again.  Pretty simple when you think about it.  I have tried Muscletech products and they didn't justify their increased price.  Same with Super 1+.  Does VPX?  For some, it does.  And that is their business.  Let's not turn it into a pissing contest like everything else in the supplement industry.


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## Testosterone (Dec 26, 2003)

Truth of the matter is VPX doesn't have any GMP certification. If they do, why don't they put that on their bottles. NOW Foods have that. If VPX do have something better than GMP (Which they dont), it must be named something! (Since it's over and above the biggest them of all!)

BTW, GoPro, I know some stuff what goes behind VPX from Jeff & Ingenohl. I'm also exclusive distributor for Nutrex in India.  
So don't try to bullshit other members. 

I never ever said VPX products are Crap. They do work and work excellent for some people. But for sure, they're massively overpriced. Liposome delivery doesn't costs that much as most of the people here think. You can get full spectrum results from some of the lower priced products too! So why you want people pay up for your Graphics & stalls you put up in GNC Mr. O, SOS, AC ??


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## Testosterone (Dec 26, 2003)

Mr. Dante. 

IF we look at the patented products from Pharma Co's they can sell it at any price like Crestor from Astra Zeneca. But that too is regulated by some sort of Govt. Agency. 
VPX doesn't have any patented product. They're just make a small alteration, change a name, put on some graphics and sell it for outrageous price.
Show me a single Pharma Co. selling their Generic products at higher than normal price.
Many co's sell deca but the price is more or less same. you cant fine a difference of $20 between 2 Deca Durabolins manufactured by 2 Companies.

Ok is P.Arnold of Ergopharm Silly? Why he's selling his 1-AD for $25 Wholesale? (You get it for $35). With so much back up and results from this product he can easily spike the price to $50!
But he knows 1-AD is quite a thing but nothing Extraordinary that he can sell it for $50.

A Cd is manufactured well below 5 Cents! And I buy it for 10 cents (Blank). We value hard earned money. A CD is a CD. Its just the case that its selling in USA at high price! Same is the case with all of your supplements.

I tell you how outrageous your prices are:

Creatine is $ 3.3 er Kilo
Glutamine is $ 10 Per Kilo
Whey Protein COnc. 80% is $ 1.3 Per Lb (Believe it)
Isolate is 2.4 Per Pound

Profits are Ok. But current pricing in the supplement industry is absurd! Who are the ultimate sufferers? The Customers! 

The thing is the pricing in this industry is not regulated by some serious agency otherwise it should have been under check.

Is Optimum Nutrition Nutts! Why people love their Whey? Its just honest pricing! Quality is not bad either. Then whats so special with VPX? They're using generic products (Nothing Revolutionary about them) and still they charge hell for those!

**************************************
Only a Patented product can justify an outrageous price
***************************************
 The word "innovation" has just been depreciated of late!




> _*Originally posted by Dante B. *_
> Speaking in general, and putting VPX aside:
> 
> Do tell me, with this knowledge you have, aren't the "top" pharmaceutical companies making quite the nice profit.
> ...


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## prolangtum (Dec 26, 2003)

You cant compare supplements and pharmacuetical companies. You dont like the product or the price, don't buy it. This is a business, people make their living off of it. It is not a monoply. You think it is high priced, buy something lower priced. Enough people do this, the company will go out of business. And patent a protein? Give me a fucking break man, get real.


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## Testosterone (Dec 26, 2003)

Your talk doesn't have any point!
We were never talking about proteins and their patents!
We were talking of "INNOVATIVE Ph's" & "INNOVATIVE DELIVERIES" --->Are they worth their price? Certainly not.
Talk about quality, all raw materials are of Pharma Quality since they get these from Pharma companies!

Dont tell me what to buy or what not. I have enough supplements to choose from.


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## Randy (Dec 26, 2003)

Buy Costco


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## Randy (Dec 26, 2003)

Screw all the supplements...@ Costco I'm talking Thick ass lean New York Steaks man..... Now we are talking


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## KataMaStEr (Dec 26, 2003)

leave you whoring for some other thread


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## prolangtum (Dec 26, 2003)

Testerone, you were talking about Biotests patent on their protein, and then saying something about justifying prices with patents. I did not state anywhere what to buy and what not to buy. I said if you dont like a prodcut because it is too high priced for you, dont buy it. No one has to patent their delivery to justify a price. I can sell 1-Testerone in a friggin bubble gum delivery and charge $100 for a pack. I will tell you all the live long day how great it is. If you dont believe in it, then dont buy it, plain and simple. I am oh so happy you have plenty of supplements to choose from. Thanks for telling me that. You and everyone else has the same damn list to choose from. It is capitalism. Buy what you want from who you want. The seller can charge what the want.


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## Randy (Dec 26, 2003)

I think it is fun to whore in this thread Kata 



> _*Originally posted by KataMaStEr *_
> leave you whoring for some other thread


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## firestorm (Dec 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by 1Fast400 *_
> 1) VPX doesn't "suck", they are just overpriced.  Nothing wrong with that if people are willing to pay.  I think the term suck is often used when overpriced should be.
> 
> Overpriced?  I don't find their products overpriced then again,,, I have a job and can pay the prices.  I also don't mind paying a few extra dollars for something that works and I've yet to be let down by one single product of theirs I've tried.  I love every single product of theirs I've tried so far and I don't mind paying for them.
> ...


1st off goofy,, how would a photo of Where the stuff is made proove squat about it's quality???   I can make a pretty picure for ya with all these stainless steel vats and shiney white tiled floors, workers in white smocks wearing gloves and white mask  and in the vats you'll find  "DOGFOOD"  being processed!!!!   knock knock are you in there?  hahahaha


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## firestorm (Dec 28, 2003)

VPX PUTS OUT EXCELLENT PRODUCT PEOPLE. I URGE YOU ALL TO GO AND BUY IT, USE IT FOR YOURSELF. MAKE YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS AS I HAVE.  IF YOU FEEL THEY ARE OVERPRICED WORK AN HOUR OVERTIME ON THE JOB AND PAY THE EXTRA 2 BUCKS IT'S WORTH EVERY CENT.


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## oaktownboy (Dec 28, 2003)

haha fire steps onto the scene


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## oaktownboy (Dec 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> MAKE YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS


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## firestorm (Dec 28, 2003)

hahaha  oak your too funny you like fuel on fire don't ya!! hahahaha  I like you dawg.


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## 1Fast400 (Dec 28, 2003)

> 1st off goofy,, how would a photo of Where the stuff is made proove squat about it's quality??? I can make a pretty picure for ya with all these stainless steel vats and shiney white tiled floors, workers in white smocks wearing gloves and white mask and in the vats you'll find "DOGFOOD" being processed!!!! knock knock are you in there? hahahaha



Since they make the liquids in house it would be pretty easy to detect a fake.


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## firestorm (Dec 28, 2003)

Since you like it when the playing field is dirty OAK my man,, here ya go.. I'll step it up a notch!!!

Testosterone starts this thread with a big speel of bad mouthing putdowns regarding VPX and to get his point across has to use the words from someone else to speak for him.  Can't this bag of wind even fill the bag with his own wind???  what a putz.  Let's here you argue YOUR points moron and not someone elses?  Have you ever tried the products?  NO?  then shut the fuq up and stop going by here say.  




> _*Originally posted by Testosterone *_
> The above comments are from Big Cat from BBdotcom.


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## 1Fast400 (Dec 28, 2003)

Isn't that normally what you do when you have a view point, back it up with others comments?


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## firestorm (Dec 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by 1Fast400 *_
> Since they make the liquids in house it would be pretty easy to detect a fake.



IFast it's my understanding from the word of others your pretty intelligent when it comes to supplements and I'm not going to even attempt to shut you down.  What your saying is probably absolutely true but think of the big picture and the big market?  How many people out there would know what to be looking for?  Your one of a few that would know most of us would not so that line of advertising would be rediculous.  Regardless of what the product is you go after the bigger audience not the select few.  That is basic marketing my man.
peace.


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## firestorm (Dec 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by 1Fast400 *_
> Isn't that normally what you do when you have a view point, back it up with others comments?


Absolutely no doubt but I didn't see his point of view.  That was the original post.  It wasn't stated to back up anything just thrown out there.


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## firestorm (Dec 28, 2003)

Fast,,, this was his second post:  
"Yeah He does. He had a share fair of his fairytales to say in other boards also but this is ineveitable.
VPX is Muscletech in making!"
Why blame others ?

To me again he isn't backing up anything just mud slinging on a very valuable member here.  ONe that is respected.  Here is a stranger coming in here doing nothing but trying to stir up a fight and a pissing contest with verbal assults.  I have no use for assholes like this and I'm quick to point them out, expecially when they are attacking a person and company I have respect for.   GOPRO and his advise on supplements and training over the past year has helped me tremendously.  I should show you before after pics since hooking up with him.  And also on his behalf, some of the products he told me to try were not even VPX!!  He is not one that walks around with blinders on.  He sees products regardless of who makes them for what they are and endorses those that work including a big rival of his "Avant labs".  He is true class and I'm not going to stand by as others attack him because VPX prices are so called "high".  Like I said, they are worth every cent and that is my OPINION. If Test thinks they are high then fine. Don't buy the products. He can keep buying illegal steroids for all I care.


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## KataMaStEr (Dec 28, 2003)

VPX puts out quality products I agree. But they are not over everyone else like some people like to put it. And yes I do think they are overpriced and it is why I and many other people usually don???t buy from them. The gains you make and the price of their products just do not equal out compared to other companies out there. I???m I complaining about their prices? No. I really do not care about them.  There are more supplement companies out there than what I can name to choose from.


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## Randy (Dec 28, 2003)

I don't really know Gopro, nor am I familiar with VPX.  But if he has quality products that he can make money selling...more power to him.   I am like anyone else though,  I look for both quality and good pricing... If I can get both, then that is who I buy from.   If VPX products and their quality are not worth the cost that they are being sold for then word will get out fast and the company will fail...  Plain and simple.  But if they have a reputable quality product at a reasonable price then they will succeed.    That is all there is to it.


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## Randy (Dec 28, 2003)

It is just like GNC...they are building a lousy reputation.  Why?  Because in my opinion they sell their products at  unreasonable prices.  That is all you have to do to destroy your business.   Then once you foul up your reputation, even if you try to correct it chances are the customers you lost will never return.  

The moral of the story for businesses..... Be careful when  inflating your prices.  If you inflate them to high and make unreasonable profits.... your customers go bye bye.


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## firestorm (Dec 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> I don't really know Gopro, nor am I familiar with VPX.  But if he has quality products that he can make money selling...more power to him.   I am like anyone else though,  I look for both quality and good pricing... If I can get both, then that is who I buy from.   If VPX products and their quality are not worth the cost that they are being sold for then word will get out fast and the company will fail...  Plain and simple.  But if they have a reputable quality product at a reasonable price then they will succeed.    That is all there is to it.



RANDY  I don't know where all these guys buy their products but I'll tell you this... shop around and you can even get VPX at pretty damn good prices.   I do not buy directly from VPX because YES I can get them cheaper, much cheaper at fitness2000 (fitnessfactoryoutlet.com store)near my home here in New Jersey. In fact their prices I've yet to see cheaper regardless of the name brand.  so as for price,, I have no worries.   
Now above I see a fella that says VPX is overprices and other companies deliver an equal or better product for cheaper.  I say unless that individual can "proove" that by coming on here and saying he "personnally" tried all of them and came to that conclusion then his statement holds little weight.   I believe ONLY in 1st hand knowledge not what a person heard or read or thinks.  Thinking is assuming as far as i'm concerned.   You go try them both then get back to me. Until then.......talk to the hand.   hahahahahaha


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## firestorm (Dec 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by KataMaStEr *_
> VPX puts out quality products I agree. But they are not over everyone else like some people like to put it. And yes I do think they are overpriced and it is why I and many other people usually don???t buy from them. The gains you make and the price of their products just do not equal out compared to other companies out there. I???m I complaining about their prices? No. I really do not care about them.  There are more supplement companies out there than what I can name to choose from.



Katamaster,, meaning no disrespect but show me.... post a pic of yourself and show me what these "other" companies have done for you.  Seriously  I'd like to see the physic behind the words.  I'm willing to back my progress up with pics.  I'll even write tomorrows date across my chest as proof.   You do the same and show me how much greater your gains were then mine over lets say a 3 month period?  You up to the challenge??  If not...  I say,, you speak only words.


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## firestorm (Dec 28, 2003)

Take a pic tomorrow with the date written across your chest or holding a piece of paper. You supplement with "legal" supplements from them there "other" companies and I'll stay strictly with what I've been using and we'll compare pics again in 3 months.  Put up or shut up.


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## firestorm (Dec 28, 2003)

That goes for you other blowhards   (testosterone, and your prison bitch whatever his name was on page one here)


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## firestorm (Dec 28, 2003)

Actually thinking about it,  I don't trust you fuqing guys. From what I hear your all juice heads and will cheat. so Kata this is opened to only you.  I know you from here and trust you.


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## KataMaStEr (Dec 29, 2003)

Fire, if you know me you would know I do not train for bodybuilding. I am training for powerlifting. How my body looks is of no  concern to me right now, strength is. I will be more than happy to have a strength challenge with you. What about measuring out squat and deadlift max at the end of those 3 months and see who improved the most or who got the most weight, whatever you want. We can also add poweclean if you???d like to the list. The only reason I did not mention bench press is because I???m recovering from a shoulder injury from my last football season.

By the way please do not tell me you will get more out of 2lbs of VPX Micellean than you will get out of 5lbs of Optimum 100% whey. 

VPX Micellean 2lb: 31.99
Optimum Nutrition 100% whey: 25.0
Buying 9 cans of tuna from the $6.99 saved:  Priceless


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## firestorm (Dec 29, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by KataMaStEr *_
> Fire, if you know me you would know I do not train for bodybuilding. I am training for powerlifting. How my body looks is of no chalenge to me right now, strength is. I will be more than happy to have a strength challenge with you. What about measuring out squat and deadlift max at the end of those 3 months and see who improved the most or who got the most weight, whatever you want. We can also add poweclean if you???d like to the list. The only reason I did not mention bench press is because I???m recovering from a shoulder injury from my last football season.
> 
> Hey man sorry bout the injury. I know where your coming from.  I also hurt my shoulder last winter and only recovered from that this past october.   As for your alternate challenge as enticing as it sounds I also must past.  If you've ever read my journal you would know that I have a very bad lower back which I injured in 1989 which never fully recovered.  To this day no matter how strong I am I just can't handle heavy weights on certain excercises such as squats, bentover rows or even deads.  I herniated L4 and L5 discs.  the injury caused arthritis in that area as well as scoliosus(spelling?)  So I'll also have to pass on that one.   Another online comp would have been good motivation though.
> ...


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## Randy (Dec 29, 2003)

Yes I agree with you FS... No need to try to cut down a manufacturer unless you have legitimate reason .   Basically if you don't like em you just don't buy from em.  If someone has the desire to put down VPX it should be for legitimate reasons.  Like I said in my post, if they aren't competitive with pricing and quality their ship will go down on their own.  If they are, then they will succeed.   If a product is good,  you don't have to worry the product will sell itself.  



> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> RANDY  I don't know where all these guys buy their products but I'll tell you this... shop around and you can even get VPX at pretty damn good prices.   I do not buy directly from VPX because YES I can get them cheaper, much cheaper at fitness2000 (fitnessfactoryoutlet.com store)near my home here in New Jersey. In fact their prices I've yet to see cheaper regardless of the name brand.  so as for price,, I have no worries.
> Now above I see a fella that says VPX is overprices and other companies deliver an equal or better product for cheaper.  I say unless that individual can "proove" that by coming on here and saying he "personnally" tried all of them and came to that conclusion then his statement holds little weight.   I believe ONLY in 1st hand knowledge not what a person heard or read or thinks.  Thinking is assuming as far as i'm concerned.   You go try them both then get back to me. Until then.......talk to the hand.   hahahahahaha


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## firestorm (Dec 29, 2003)

Your absolutely correct Randy.  These guys are only here to ruffle feathers.  Every single one of them at one time or another paid more for something then that something was really worth.  I wonder what kind of Jeans they wear.  The ones with the name on the back or the ones from JC Penney.  the sneakers with some baskeball guy endorsement or the New Balance?   Believe me they are all victims of their own arguments. Just looking for a fight.


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## Randy (Dec 29, 2003)

Well enough said  Maybe now we can bury the thread 

Hey that rhymes


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## Tank316 (Dec 29, 2003)

i'll read this entire thread later, but for now i'll speak my mind, and i'm not defending my friend Eric, he is man enough to do that on his own. i do use VPX products, and when it comes to spending MY money on products that work and dont work is a no brainer, VPX products work,enough said. Its your choice when it comes to using supps, and P/H's, and from the research, VPX's ph's are becoming popular in a hurry, word of mouth so to speak from the cyper world. One other thing, my friend Eric, who does work for VPX, is just that ,a friend, and if he does tell me something will work, i believe he has my best interest at heart, not my wallet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Randy (Dec 29, 2003)

Well said Tank ... I can respect that.


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## MTN WARRIOR (Dec 29, 2003)

I have purposely waited to respond so I could see where this thread as going.  It went no where positive.  If you dont like a product, or its price, or its claims, then exercise your constitutional right to NOT FRIGGIN buy it.  Yes, you have a right to free speech, HOWEVER, not when it infringes upon someones elses rights.  Testoabologna, you have pushed this limit.  In the least, you are guilty of being flat out rude.  You simply tried to stimulate an argument with GOPRO and attack part of his livelyhood.  Thats friggin bullshit.  HOw would you like it if I attacked your place of employment, said how they sucked and charged to much?  Well, I would be wrong probably because McDonalds is pretty cheap.  With your mentality, that is obviously where you work.  I suppose we will now discuss how it is bullshit that J'bo owns a BMW and that company charges way too much to make their non-patented fancy steering system.  Dammit, I want to see a picture of their factory.  Get my point.  People, its ok to render your opinion, but don't violate other peoples rights and feelings.  There is nothing gained.  Testorlonley, I am sure had you simply stated that you felt those products were overpriced, no disrespect intented GP, then this wouldn't havent gotten out of hand and I wouldnt be wasting my timing typing this when I should be concentrating on my diet and exercise.  BTW, I haven't used VPX products yet, but may if I feel they are worth the price.  Overpriced?  Lets talk about steriods then, overpriced and dangerous, why dont you attack those?  Get a personality testorboner.


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## bigswole30 (Dec 29, 2003)

If only all of these negative things said about VPX hurt their sales. LOL. Since dropping the largest distributor in the world(Europa Sports) VPX's sales have increased by like 25%. That is saying something. That is why I was hired. Their sales department has been "off the chain busy" because of the rate at which VPX is growing. Keep in hating.


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## 1Fast400 (Dec 29, 2003)

Bash Europa all you want, those are good guys.  I've dealt with them for over 2 years and have nothing but positive things to say.  


I think the point some are trying to make about vpx being crap (when they really mean overpriced) is that there are a lot of consumers who might buy this stuff because the advertising makes it seem like real steroids (not that they would be unique in this way, but they go overboard with it).  A lot of newbies end up getting ripped off and get turned off to these types of products because they lump them all into 1 group (I tried one so they all suck).  This was the original logic used when 1AD first came out, it must suck because others in the past did.  I think this is the point others are trying to make.  A lot of VPX sales might not be return customers, but newbies as first time buyers.


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## gopro (Dec 29, 2003)

I'm tired of the negativity and tired of all the hating, mudslinging, jealousy, lies, and everything else that goes on on the net. Its so funny how typing on a computer mysteriously grows an extra set of large balls for guys that would otherwise cower in the corner if they tried to say the same thing to me (and others) in person. I invite you to come see me at the VPX booth at the Arnold Classic and spew your hatred right to me IN MY FACE! C'mon, I'd love to meet you! And don't worry, you'll definitely find me, as VPX will undoubtedly have the biggest booth at the show.

Anyway, I just want to say a huge thanks to all that came into this thread and did their best to defend me as an individual and also as a representative of VPX. With all the hatred that is spewed on these boards I have considered leaving several times and just focusing on the VPX discussion boards and my personal clients. However, it is the group of people on here that have shown themselves as true friends that keep me around, even with all the assholes that remain and continue to pop up. Thanks Firestorm, Tank, and Rock for always making a special effort to "get my back." And there are many others on here as well that also stand behind me no matter what anyone says b/c they know who and what I truly am. Thanks to you guys too.

Luckily we live in a place where we are free to buy what we want, from who we want. If you don't like a product, than don't buy it! If YOU don't think something is worth it, than don't spend your money. But, if you have never used a VPX (or any other companies) product, or don't at least have a boatload of feedback from other people about it, than don't even try to speak about the efficacy of that product or whether it worth it or not b/c you are speaking out of your ass. Period. Better to come on here and talk about a product that has done well for you, rather than talk DOWN about another product that you haven't even tried. THAT is much more productive for the members here.

Yes, I work for VPX, and yes, I had offers to work for other supplement companies. I came to work here for one reason (money was even better at a couple of other places)...I have used VPX for years and always felt they were the best overall supplement company around. I'm glad I work for a company that I actually believe in. Some things need some changes around here and I'm working on it. Best thing I did so far is get bigswole hired here!!!!!!!!!

So, I've had enough of this thread and hope to see all my friends at the Arnold...oh, and all of the big balled typing wizards too.


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## ZECH (Dec 29, 2003)

Well I think everyone has had their say. Nothing else positive will come of it.


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