# Plateau's



## CJMAJOR (Mar 28, 2002)

For about 2 months now or so i have been working out using about 12 sets for the big muscles (Chest, Legs, Back) and 6-9 for the smaller groups (Biceps, Triceps, Shoulders) and my body has just grown like crazy (Like scotty said it would). I have never experienced such growth in my life. But my question is with doing this few sets with each bodypart, are the muscles less likely to plateau out and not grow anymore, in which a person would have to switch up their routine? Because I have done the same workout (a four day spilt) for almost 2 months and I go up about 5 pounds a week or 4-8 reps per set. Now once i reach 10 reps on a particular weight i up it five pounds. My diet is pretty good but will i continue to go up like this? And if so should i ever switch around my workout if i continue to grow? Thanks for your help.


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## Robboe (Mar 28, 2002)

Excellent progress man! 

It is inevitable that your gains will slow, providing you are a natural trainer. When this time comes, instead of switching exercises, in your case i'd say reduce volume. I know it sounds crazy at first, but 12 sets for one bodypart sounds crazy to me! drop down to say 9 sets for large parts and 4-6 for small. I'd also suggest upping calories a little too to ensure you're adding about 0.5-1lb a week.

I personally do about 4 sets for large parts and about 2-3 for smaller. Once you stall on 9 sets, i suggest you reduce volume further and up calories.

If you are progressing in the gym regularly you have NO NEED TO MAKE CHANGES. Why "fix" something that isn't broken? (Clichéd reply, i know )

(the more astute of you will also realise i type "fix". Make of that what you will.)


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## Willy (Mar 28, 2002)

*If you are progressing in the gym regularly you have NO NEED TO MAKE CHANGES. Why "fix" something that isn't broken? (Clichéd reply, i know ) *

I agree with that but I don't see how keeping the same routine and dropping the volume is gonna help, I could see it if it was the over training that was causing the hault in progress maybe. 
I'd change your routine up if your progress stops.


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## Neil (Mar 28, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Willy *_
> *If you are progressing in the gym regularly you have NO NEED TO MAKE CHANGES. Why "fix" something that isn't broken? (Clichéd reply, i know ) *
> 
> I agree with that but I don't see how keeping the same routine and dropping the volume is gonna help, I could see it if it was the over training that was causing the hault in progress maybe.
> I'd change your routine up if your progress stops.



The more muscle you build the longer it takes to recover. Keep the volume low and the intesity balls to the wall and you shouldn't have any problems progressing. Although I find a slight variation here and there helps to keep my training fresh which keeps my enthusiasm higher.


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## gopro (Mar 29, 2002)

Switch one or more of the following every 6-8 weeks...

-overall rep range
-exercise order
-bodypart grouping
-rep speed
-rest between sets
-exercises...not necessarily all, but perhaps one core move
-program...switch to heavy duty, POF, GVT, superset, etc.

This will keep progress more steady as you begin to slow down.


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## CJMAJOR (Mar 29, 2002)

Well Gopro I am coming up on 8 weeks cause you recommend a workout switch up for biceps and then one for triceps? What i mean is you recommend to do like 2 excercises for biceps then the next week you do 2 different excercises then the next you do 2 different excercises. Then after 3 weeks you repeat the entire thing. Can you recommend a 3 week set up for both triceps and biceps for me please? Scotty your really familiar with this if Gopro cannot can you please? I just would like to try this set up that some people are trying. Thank you guys for all your help.

CJMAJOR


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## gopro (Mar 29, 2002)

I'm in a rush, but tomorrow I will post for you my 3 week cyclical training pattern which involves not so much different exercises as much as different training techniques to work every possible muscle fiber as well as increase growth hormone and other growth factors. 

Look for it!


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## Arnold (Mar 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> I'm in a rush, but tomorrow I will post for you my 3 week cyclical training pattern which involves not so much different exercises as much as different training techniques to work every possible muscle fiber as well as increase growth hormone and other growth factors.
> 
> Look for it!



Would this be good material for the main site?


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## gopro (Mar 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> 
> 
> Would this be good material for the main site?




Hmmm...maybe it would...


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## gopro (Mar 30, 2002)

Week 1...Power...
-barbell curl...3 x 6-8
-alternate dumbell curl...3 x 6-8
-cg bench press...3 x 4-6
-skull crush...2 x 6-8
-overhaed dumbell extension...2 x 6-8

Week 2...Rep Range...
-barbell curl...2 x 6-8
-alternate dumbell...2 x 10-12
-dumbell preacher curl...2 x 12-15
-cg bench press...3 x 6-8
-skull crush...2 x 8-10
-pushdowns...2 x 12-15

Week 3...Shock...
-preacher curl/barbell curl superset...1 x 8-10 each
-lying overhead cable curl/supinating dumbell curl...1 x 8-10 each
-regular cable curl dropset...1 x 8-10, drop weight, 8-10
-pushdowns/cg bench press superset...2 x 8-10 each
-reverse pusdown/ skull crush superset...1-2 x 8-10 each
-single arm pushdown dropset...1 x 8-10, drop weight, 8-10

This is a basic 3 week cycle using basically the same exercises from week to week. Unless you have 5+ years training under your belt, keep the exercises similar week to week, but experiment with the order if you wish. The more advanced can switch up exercises every week if they wish.

Wanna grow? Try it. I dare you!


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## goldtips (Mar 30, 2002)

Gopro that's for all biceps each week? I'm give it a try next friday when I do shoulders/biceps.


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## Scotty the Body (Mar 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by goldtips *_
> Gopro that's for all biceps each week? I'm give it a try next friday when I do shoulders/biceps.



Actually its for Bi's and Tri's but it could be split up I'm sure.


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## CJMAJOR (Mar 30, 2002)

In the third week you have lying overhead cable curl/supinating dumbell curl. What are each of these I have never heard of them. And what is the difference between regular pushdowns and reverse pushdown? And then one more question. I am doing chest and triceps together and back and biceps together in my current workout. I like this because it makes the workout go fast, with your set up will it still work or do I need to combine both bi/tri's to get the most out of this? Other than that it look very cool and I am going to try it this week. Thank you so much for your help.  

Cjmajor


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## Robboe (Mar 31, 2002)

Why do bicep work first?

And why not do say bicep exercise, then a tricep ex. then a bicep....etc....?


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## gopro (Mar 31, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by goldtips *_
> Gopro that's for all biceps each week? I'm give it a try next friday when I do shoulders/biceps.




Yes, thats all for biceps. I currently never do more than 5-6 sets for bis in any workout!


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## gopro (Mar 31, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Scotty the Body *_
> 
> 
> Actually its for Bi's and Tri's but it could be split up I'm sure.




Of course it can be split up for those that don't do arms on the same day


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## gopro (Mar 31, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by CJMAJOR *_
> In the third week you have lying overhead cable curl/supinating dumbell curl. What are each of these I have never heard of them. And what is the difference between regular pushdowns and reverse pushdown? And then one more question. I am doing chest and triceps together and back and biceps together in my current workout. I like this because it makes the workout go fast, with your set up will it still work or do I need to combine both bi/tri's to get the most out of this? Other than that it look very cool and I am going to try it this week. Thank you so much for your help.
> 
> Cjmajor



-Lying cable curl...lie down on a bench with your head closer to the weight stack. Grab a straight bar from the top pully and curl BACK and down behind your head. Straighten your arms completely and repeat. Squeeze tight on the contraction.
-supinating dumbell curls simply means to begin the movement with your palms facing your thighs when your arms are down by your sides. Then as you curl you gradually turns your palms until they are facing you at the top.
-regular pushdown is with palms down...reverse grip is with palms up, like a curl grip.
-you can work your bis and tris on seperate days, yes.
-you are welcome


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## gopro (Mar 31, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Why do bicep work first?
> 
> And why not do say bicep exercise, then a tricep ex. then a bicep....etc....?




-biceps first are just my preference. I like the cushion they provide when training tris. But you can do it either way.
-you CAN do a bicep exercise followed by a tricep, but I wrote it that way because most people train bis and tris on seperate days


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## Robboe (Mar 31, 2002)

Oh, i was just wondering what you thought of switching between muscles when working antagonists.

Have you tried this method?

I think Polquim is an advocate.


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## CJMAJOR (Mar 31, 2002)

Has anyone ever done slow dumbbell curls with like a 3-1-3 tempo? I was reading in a book where they said you could grab a weight about 60-70% max and do slow dumbbell curls or just about any arm excercise and slowing raise and lower the weight. This keeps lots of tension on the muscle and makes it work alot harder than regular dumbbell curls. But then i read somewhere where a study was down to see if slow reps built muscle faster than fast reps. And after the study the people doing faster reps where able to build more muscle mass then the people doing the slower reps. Anyone got any info on this?


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## gopro (Mar 31, 2002)

You want to know what works...everything...just not forever.


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## gopro (Mar 31, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Oh, i was just wondering what you thought of switching between muscles when working antagonists.
> 
> Have you tried this method?
> ...




Yes, I've tried this method and I like it. I am also a very big advocate of almost everything Poliquin says.


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## Robboe (Apr 1, 2002)

Like rowing to the neck?

Ouch! I can feel the shoulder impingements already


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## gopro (Apr 1, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Like rowing to the neck?
> 
> Ouch! I can feel the shoulder impingements already



Where did rowing to the neck come into this discussion? Did you stop taking your medication again Chicken?


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## Robboe (Apr 1, 2002)

You said you were "also a very big advocate of almost everything Poliquin says".

Poliquin has a back routine where one exercise is cable rows to the neck. Nasty pasty.


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## gopro (Apr 1, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> You said you were "also a very big advocate of almost everything Poliquin says".
> 
> Poliquin has a back routine where one exercise is cable rows to the neck. Nasty pasty.



Now you are picking on Charles Poliquin...ok, when you are one of the top strength coaches in the entire world...when you have worked with athletes in every sport, from professional sports teams to Olympians, and you get $2000 dollars a pop for doing an hour seminar...then, you can speak..ok...good!


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## CJMAJOR (Apr 1, 2002)

Well gopro I jinked myself. After I started this dang thread I hit mister plateau tonight for chest and triceps. I had been going up in either reps by 2-4 or throwing on more weight but tonight I totally stayed the same on bench. My diet has been bad this week cause of work so that has probably contributed to it. But I guess now its time to change. Its been 8 weeks anyways so I guess its time to change.


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## Robboe (Apr 2, 2002)

So Gopro, you agree with rowing to the neck?

CJ, that isn't a plateau as such. If it stays the same the next week or the following week then maybe.


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## gopro (Apr 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> So Gopro, you agree with rowing to the neck?
> 
> CJ, that isn't a plateau as such. If it stays the same the next week or the following week then maybe.



For some, who don't have shoulder problems and/or have good flexibility in the shoulder joint, sure, why not. Good upper back exercise. Hey, some people can do behind the neck press and pulldowns with no problem and get great growth from them, some can't. Upright rows always cause my rotators to act up, but others love them.


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## Maki Riddington (Apr 2, 2002)

Charles is a great source of info but that doesn't excuse one from questioning what he has to preach.
Just because he says something doesn't mean it's right.
The problem with trainers today is is that they latch onto the so called 'gurus' and lap in what they have to say without stopping to think for themselves or question their statements.


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## Arnold (Apr 2, 2002)

I agree, that's why I try and utilize personal experience as much as possible.


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## Robboe (Apr 2, 2002)

So princey, out of curiosity, do you do incline presses and have they worked for making your upper chest grow?

Honesty now.


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## Arnold (Apr 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> So princey, out of curiosity, do you do incline presses and have they worked for making your upper chest grow?
> 
> Honesty now.




First of all do not call me princey.

Secondly, why do you continue to dwell on this incline/upper chest debate?


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## ActionMatt (Apr 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Maki Riddington *_
> Charles is a great source of info but that doesn't excuse one from questioning what he has to preach.
> Just because he says something doesn't mean it's right.
> The problem with trainers today is is that they latch onto the so called 'gurus' and lap in what they have to say without stopping to think for themselves or question their statements.




Exactly, Maki. NO ONE is infallible, and NO ONE is exempt to having their theories questioned. Hell, I've been putting Mel through the wringer with questions lately, and I think we've both been learning in the process. I think Dr. Siff is a good bit more reputable than Poliquin, as well. But he's also not out to attract business, which will always skew the training expert's motives.


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## Robboe (Apr 2, 2002)

Avoided answering the question nicely there i see, prince.


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## Arnold (Apr 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Avoided answering the question nicely there i see, prince.



I see you avoided my question too!


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## Robboe (Apr 2, 2002)

Good point.

I have no idea why.


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## gopro (Apr 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Maki Riddington *_
> Charles is a great source of info but that doesn't excuse one from questioning what he has to preach.
> Just because he says something doesn't mean it's right.
> The problem with trainers today is is that they latch onto the so called 'gurus' and lap in what they have to say without stopping to think for themselves or question their statements.



I don't see anything wrong with questioning what Poliquin or anyone else says...which is why I said that there is nothing wrong with rows to the neck IF you are void of shoulder problems. This was in response to Chicken basically saying that this exercise will cause shoulder impingement, which was an untrue statement...it won't for everyone. For some it may be a great movement.

Another point...how did I come to my conclusions on weight training? From listening to everyone, questioning everyone, trying everything...tracking it, troubleshooting, experimenting...listening some more, reading some more, trying again...this is what is called EXPERIENCE.


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## Arnold (Apr 2, 2002)

I believe in you gopro!


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## gopro (Apr 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I believe in you gopro!



Thank you Prince...its really fine if people wish to question me, but after a while you have to look at someone and say..."holy cow, look at what they have accomplished...maybe they do know what they are talking about." You know, if you never shut up and just listen, you will never learn anything. I am here for one reason and one reason only...to help everyone get the most out of their training possible, and to help everyone reach whatever goals they have set for themself. I wish I had access to this kind of stuff when I was just beginning. I can't imagine where I would be now.

Anyway..thanks again Prince for recognizing my value to this board and making me a mod, allowing me to write articles and do a monthly Q & A. I do enjoy giving back to a sport that has given alot to me.


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## Shmoo (Apr 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I believe in you gopro!


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## ActionMatt (Apr 2, 2002)

And if you make money in the process of enthralling everyone with your vast infallible wisdom, what the hell, huh?


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## Maki Riddington (Apr 2, 2002)

Absolutely Matt.
Money first info second........
Hey we all gotta make a living right?
 

My philosphy is simple. Info first and if they like what I have to offer then we can look at the money thing next.


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## gopro (Apr 3, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ActionMatt *_
> And if you make money in the process of enthralling everyone with your vast infallible wisdom, what the hell, huh?



Ummmm...do I make money for posting here?Prince is paying me a salary? Are you stupid? I have had a thriving personal training business for 12 years...long before I even knew how to turn on a computer.

Maybe the two of you should consider paying me too. You guys really need the help. Oh, I'm not talking just about training, but psychological help as well...my college degree IS in psychology...don't be afraid...let it out...

LOL at you guys...


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## Yanks20 (Apr 3, 2002)

you the man pro!


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## gopro (Apr 3, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanks20 *_
> you the man pro!



Thanks Yanks! Whats up with these guys? Are they jealous, bored, paranoid, punch drunk, or small and angry, LOL?


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## Yanks20 (Apr 3, 2002)

in my opinion a little bit of everything! i guess they just cannot stand hearing things from people who know what it is all about. maybe someday they will see the light, but from what i'm reading that will probably not happen.


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## Tank316 (Apr 3, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I agree, that's why I try and utilize personal experience as much as possible.


yes,22yrs of lifting, dieting, supplementing, and just plain ole fashion hard kick ass work and i couldve looked in a dam book instead.
   to be young again.


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## Robboe (Apr 3, 2002)

Where you guys got the idea from that we're newbies?


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## Tank316 (Apr 3, 2002)

think about it


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## Robboe (Apr 3, 2002)

Oooooooooooooooooooooooo.....


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## Yanks20 (Apr 3, 2002)

listen people here are looking for advice. it just seems that you are stuck in a one frame mind that training is done a certain way -that's fine with me if that is your thing, even though you and a few certain others will never know what it is like to be a complete bodybuilder. 

hell, if i can pick up just one bit of information i consider it a good day and try to implement it into my routine. is has taken years of dedication and trial and error to get where i am today and like pro tank said if this forum was available years ago it would have helped out tremendously.


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## craig777 (Apr 3, 2002)

Gopro,

To me they sound like my nephew. He is 17 years old and he knows everything there is to know about bodybuilding. Just ask him. He is maybe 100lbs soaking wet, and he tells me he can bench 315. He asks me all kinds of questions about bodybuilding just so he can tell me I am wrong and he can show how much he thinks he knows. He walks around like he has these huge lats, it is so funny. He is so full of himself it isn't funny.

I don't claim to be an expert in bodybuilding, but I will take advice from someone who has been there and proven themselves like Charles Poliquin, or you than someone who talks a big talk.

Just my 2 cents. I am glad you are here Gopro and thanks.


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## Yanks20 (Apr 3, 2002)

that makes two of us craig


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## Tank316 (Apr 3, 2002)

well TCD, i guess to put politely as i can. you seem well informed in alot of area's.you take your lifting serious. but why argue over somethings that work for some and not for others. in a round about way you and your friend Action Matt were ripping on GP.lifting is serious for some others are just starting out, some do it to help out in there other sports, like mountain bike riding, martial arts,high school sports.thats why people start up boards, to help out and share knowledge.if you want to help out thats great, contribute, but dont turn things around and start arguing with the others on the board.its called RESPECT, if you want  it ya got to give it.one thing i liked about IM was the fact that everybody tried helping out, and well to be honest, you're ruining that.so please dont take my words offensive, just think about it for awhile.


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## ActionMatt (Apr 3, 2002)

If you don't want to contribute to the topic then don't post!!


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## Robboe (Apr 3, 2002)

I am trying to help.

The word on this board is that inclines work upper chest, you need to regularly switch routines to grow and that ZMA really does make you 2.5 times the person you were.

Is this true? No.

Although i gotta admit, the routine switching or anything else doesn't bother me really, providing the lifters are training "sensibly" and frequently (ie keeping to a split each week whether they keep the same exercises or not.) As long as they're lifting each week i'm happy and so will they be cause they will notice results. Whether these results are "optimal" is a different question. The only beef i really got is about targeted muscle growth via various exercises.


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## Tank316 (Apr 3, 2002)

well enough then lets all just get along then.ok..


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## Robboe (Apr 3, 2002)

Ok.

*holds Tank's hand and does a little dance*


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## Tank316 (Apr 3, 2002)

i got two left feet, cant dance for shit


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## Yanks20 (Apr 3, 2002)

ok CD so we all know that you like the basic exercises in your routine. however by targeting smaller muscles in the exercise work just as well. take for instance your continued disbelief that inclines don't work (which they do and help the overall development of the upper chest). i'm not trying to rain on your parade or anything but whatever works for you is just fine. time and time again it has been proven that flat, incline & decline bench work the three major areas of the chest.

so for your chest exercises do you only do flat bench and flies, do you do declines and if so why?


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## Robboe (Apr 3, 2002)

declines are the best _pressing_ exercise for the chest. They resemble the most natural movement of the chest (arms pushing down). a decline with a 30 degree angle is about best.

The more inclined, the more shoulder recruitment. The more declined, the more tricep recruitment, although at a slight decline (the 30 degrees i mentioned) there is less tricep involvement compared to shoulder involvement on a 30 degree incline.

I do a decline machine press btw, if you're wondering.

I also do dips. They're ace. They've strengthend my entire upper body and aid in my pressing. This is how all of my workouts are structured - i do "main" exercises and the ones after are to help aid it eg. i squat and do SLDL's to help strengthen my lower back (my weak link during squatting) so i can squat heavier. I dip to help my presses. I overhead press to help my presses. If i'm progressing on my presses i'm a happy camper. If i progress on my "assistance" movements it's a bonus. (although i do strive to progress on EVERYTHING).

I never said that inclines don;t work the chest. They do, only inferior compared to flat or slightly declined, purely cause they recruit more shoulder invovlement than is "favourable". If you're doing them to spur upper chest growth then you got no chance cause muscles don't function or grow like that.


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## ActionMatt (Apr 3, 2002)

There aren't three areas of the pec major. The pec major has an upper and a lower head. Further, both heads are involved in every articulation the chest is responsible for. Even more, despite the possible compartmentalization feature of MU recruitment, the tension necessary for hypertrophy would be spread throughout the muscle, not selectively through one part.

The various angles of pressing don't stress different parts of the muscle, they simply change how much the chest as a whole is involved in the movement.

Personally, I don't do inclines. I'm also not a bodybuilder, but when I do train my chest, I do BP, dips, and a third movement that usually depends on my mood. As if it matters any, I feel the "upper" chest more when I do dips than when I do inclines.

The only possible mechanism that could cause a bigger "upper" chest would be the pec minor, which is involved more in inclines and could give the illusion of a larger upper chest.


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## Yanks20 (Apr 3, 2002)

the reason i asked about declines is because for a few years i stayed away from them and didn't feel they were helping the overall growth of my chest - Yes, i was very wrong and now include them in every chest workout! once again trail and error played a big part in figuring this out. i would highly recommend you trying either barbell or DB for declines, stabalizing muscles will develop much quicker than using machines.

me personally, i don't feel any added stress on the shoulders while doing inclines. just a quesiton.

when you DO perform inclines are your arms at a 90 angle or are they more positioned in the 45 angle?

the closer your arms move to 90 degrees the more stress is going to be place on the anterior delt and limit your pressing.


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## Robboe (Apr 3, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanks20 *_
> the reason i asked about declines is because for a few years i stayed away from them and didn't feel they were helping the overall growth of my chest - Yes, i was very wrong and now include them in every chest workout! once again trail and error played a big part in figuring this out. i would highly recommend you trying either barbell or DB for declines, stabalizing muscles will develop much quicker than using machines.
> *
> Although i kinda agree, my free-weight flat pressing and weighted dips get my ancilliary muscles aight. I use a machine specifically for the purpose of recruiting less stabilizing muscles so more focus can be placed on the chest itself and less overall upper body.*
> ...





and by the way Matt:

*As if it matters any, I feel the "upper" chest more when I do dips than when I do inclines. *


Me too!


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## Yanks20 (Apr 3, 2002)

First Matt, when did i say there were three muscles in the chest, try reading before you make a dumb ass comment! i referred to the 3 lifts, incline, flat & declines to hit three different areas by using different angles.


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## ActionMatt (Apr 3, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanks20 *_
> time and time again it has been proven that flat, incline & decline bench work *the three major areas of the chest*.



Gee, no telling *what* gave me the idea you said that.


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## Robboe (Apr 3, 2002)

Why only three different areas of the chest?

What about outer and inner?


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## Arnold (Apr 3, 2002)




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## Yanks20 (Apr 3, 2002)

CD, i can uderstand your methods for using the machines, maybe just switching it up a little bit every once in a while wouldn't be bad either!

my incline presses move pretty much straight up and down so yes i can understand when you did them you felt very uncomfortable. plus once i get about 245 i make sure i have a trusted spotter.

the reason you are feeling more in your upper chest by doing dips is because you are able to beyond the normal stopping point of a pressing movement, hence you are stretching the chest more and the angle your leaning at makes you feel it more in your upper chest but yet your are still not training it as well as if you are doing inclines.


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## Robboe (Apr 3, 2002)

Oh i never felt uncomfortable doing inclines man, but at the time i did them for upper chest growth and i realised they didn't work. I've noticed better overall growth since i dropped them. And my upper chest is no different now relative to my lower chest than what it was.


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## Yanks20 (Apr 3, 2002)

cool, so i guess you are one of the few people that can benefit from not doing inclines! i guess we killed this topic


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