# Gun Forum?



## bio-chem (Jan 26, 2009)

I've recently started shooting more often recently, and purchased a new handgun. So I was wondering if anybody knows of any good gun forums. Will I'm looking to you on this one. (as well as a few others). so how 'bout it guys any suggestions?


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## KelJu (Jan 26, 2009)

At somethingawful there is a forum called The Firing Range - The Something Awful Forums .

There is a ton of information there, but I doubt you would like the people there, and it cost $10 to create an account. 

What gun did you get?


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## bio-chem (Jan 26, 2009)

I've owned a Beretta PX4 in .40 cal for about a year now. Last weak I bought a FNP-9.

What is it about the people that you think I wouldn't like? I enjoy the opinions of those who I don't agree with as long as they are intelligent about their posts. At least I think so, I may not always come off that way.


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## Doublebase (Jan 26, 2009)

You get hits on your gun forum question but I get nothin on my money forum thread.


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## bio-chem (Jan 26, 2009)

Doublebase said:


> You get hits on your gun forum question but I get nothin on my money forum thread.



Guns > Money  


ha hahaha ah. I'm not sure many here are very good with their money. you are asking the wrong crowd.


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## mcguin (Jan 26, 2009)

congrats on your new toy...I don't know of any reputable gun forums but I'm sure if you google you'll find a couple...we should just make a gun thread under the forum...


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## bio-chem (Jan 26, 2009)

no doubt we have had some good gun discussions here.

 like Kelju mentioned though, the type of people a particular forum has makes a big difference. I was hoping some of you may have already done the leg work and screened out the forums that are going to be a bunch of BS.


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## KelJu (Jan 26, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> I've owned a Beretta PX4 in .40 cal for about a year now. Last weak I bought a FNP-9.
> 
> What is it about the people that you think I wouldn't like? I enjoy the opinions of those who I don't agree with as long as they are intelligent about their posts. At least I think so, I may not always come off that way.



They are arrogant pretentious nerds that love to flame anybody new. Basically they are like me times 10. 


Anywho, I love the way Baretta's look, and they have a history of quality and dependability. I have never shot their pistols, but I have show their shotguns, and they rock pretty hard.


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## maniclion (Jan 26, 2009)

Doublebase said:


> You get hits on your gun forum question but I get nothin on my money forum thread.


A person is less likely to give info on where they get financial tips that have worked than they are about which forum they like to discuss hobbies.


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## TexanTA1996 (Jan 26, 2009)

Glocktalk.com


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## bio-chem (Jan 26, 2009)

KelJu said:


> They are arrogant pretentious nerds that love to flame anybody new. Basically they are like me times 10.
> 
> 
> Anywho, I love the way Baretta's look, and they have a history of quality and dependability. I have never shot their pistols, but I have show their shotguns, and they rock pretty hard.



After having shot my Beretta for awhile now I feel confident in recommending their handguns. I enjoy that piece completely. And like you said it is a good looking gun.


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## ALBOB (Jan 26, 2009)

AR15.COM

1911Forum - Powered by vBulletin

Even though the titles of the sites reflect specific guns that you may or may not own, both sites have forums that cover a wide range of guns.  AF15.com has a great hometown forum too where you can chat with folks from you area about shooting.


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## bio-chem (Jan 26, 2009)

ALBOB said:


> AR15.COM
> 
> 1911Forum - Powered by vBulletin
> 
> Even though the titles of the sites reflect specific guns that you may or may not own, both sites have forums that cover a wide range of guns.  AF15.com has a great hometown forum too where you can chat with folks from you area about shooting.



Nice. thanks


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## KelJu (Jan 26, 2009)

If you don;t have a 1911, you need to get one. Nothing feels quite so nice in my hand as a Springfield 1911 GI series.


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## Splash Log (Jan 26, 2009)

SIGforum.com --A discussion forum for SIG enthusiasts

and of course : Zombie Squad • Index page


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## bio-chem (Jan 26, 2009)

Im starting to consider a 1911 purchase. I've shot and loved the Taurus 1911. any thoughts or recommendations guys?


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## bio-chem (Jan 26, 2009)

KelJu said:


> If you don;t have a 1911, you need to get one. Nothing feels quite so nice in my hand as a Springfield 1911 GI series.



holy shit, its like you are reading my mind. WTF?

thanks


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## Doublebase (Jan 26, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> holy shit, its like you are reading my mind. WTF?
> 
> thanks



Are you worried that somebody is going to try and jack yo lancer?


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## bio-chem (Jan 26, 2009)

Doublebase said:


> Are you worried that somebody is going to try and jack yo lancer?



I am now!


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## mcguin (Jan 27, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> Im starting to consider a 1911 purchase. I've shot and loved the Taurus 1911. any thoughts or recommendations guys?



if you're going for a 1911, spend the money on a kimber custom, or a springfield, or colt...dont go cheap if you're going to go for the 1911...you wont regret it!


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## Will Brink (Jan 27, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> I've recently started shooting more often recently, and purchased a new handgun. So I was wondering if anybody knows of any good gun forums. Will I'm looking to you on this one. (as well as a few others). so how 'bout it guys any suggestions?



I guess question is, what type of gun forum? There's tons of them. A good general forum where people are friendly and generally knowledgeable, is the High Road:

THR - Powered by vBulletin


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## bio-chem (Jan 27, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> A good general forum where people are friendly and generally knowledgeable, is the High Road:
> 
> THR - Powered by vBulletin


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## Will Brink (Jan 27, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> Im starting to consider a 1911 purchase. I've shot and loved the Taurus 1911. any thoughts or recommendations guys?



1911's are a whole different ball game and require more training an dedication to shooting as well as more upkeep for the gun. You are also going from DAO guns to SA with external safeties, etc.

There is also a wide range of quality and options, so budget is an essential variable there. Don't get a cheap 1911. Get something decent or don't bother. This is where a good gun forum will come in handy for doing some research. The high road is a good place to start.


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## bio-chem (Jan 27, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> 1911's are a whole different ball game and require more training an dedication to shooting as well as more upkeep for the gun. You are also going from DAO guns to SA with external safeties, etc.
> 
> There is also a wide range of quality and options, so budget is an essential variable there. Don't get a cheap 1911. Get something decent or don't bother. This is where a good gun forum will come in handy for doing some research. The high road is a good place to start.



The only gun I own that doesn't have an external safety is a ruger security-six. I wouldn't say I am unfamiliar with 1911's, or their differences to other guns. more I'm unfamiliar with current 1911 offerings.

Why in your opinion is more training, or what kind of training do you feel is required for a 1911 that other guns do not require?


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## Will Brink (Jan 27, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> The only gun I own that doesn't have an external safety is a ruger security-six. I wouldn't say I am unfamiliar with 1911's, or their differences to other guns. more I'm unfamiliar with current 1911 offerings.
> 
> Why in your opinion is more training, or what kind of training do you feel is required for a 1911 that other guns do not require?



There's a reason grunts and cops get DAO glocks, sigs, etc and the  high level combat shooters (SWAT, various SOF, FBI HRT, etc) will use 1911s. They are the king of the combat handgun. However, it takes a lot of training to able to shoot them well and safely under pressure. 3lbs or so of SA trigger, external safties, and such demand it. They are not beginner guns. Two, they are tuned guns that require more upkeep and dedication to the platform for them to be reliable. Glocks, sigs, etc, will tolerate little upkeep, 1911s will not. I'm only talking about real tactical combat/SD shooting. If it's just to pull out of your safe once in a while, pop a few rnds at the range, and put it back, no biggie, but you would still be better off putting that $$$ into ammo and a few courses with your good basic easy to run DAO pistol.

I know many people with a bunch of guns, none of which they can shoot very well. I would rather see a person take one good gun, and spend the time and $$$ to get proficient with it. All the years I have been shooting, competing, working with LEO, posting on the topic, etc, etc, know how many guns I own?  Four. 3 1911s and one M4 carbine.

Now, that's just my position as I don't view guns as a simple hobby per se but a responsibility and potential life saving tool. There's lots of gun owners (most really) who buy guns they want for the fun of it, shoot it once in a while, and that's cool too. 

Just food for thought, so enjoy what ever you decide to purchase. BTW, the SA GI is a solid choice. Many smiths use them as "base guns" for a build out. Thus, you can shoot it for a while and add to it over time and build it up to your personal liking vs getting one with all the bells and whistles to start.


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## bio-chem (Jan 27, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> There's a reason grunts and cops get DAO glocks, sigs, etc and the  high level combat shooters (SWAT, various SOF, FBI HRT, etc) will use 1911s. They are the king of the combat handgun. However, it takes a lot of training to able to shoot them well and safely under pressure. 3lbs or so of SA trigger, external safties, and such demand it. They are not beginner guns. Two, they are tuned guns that require more upkeep and dedication to the platform for them to be reliable. Glocks, sigs, etc, will tolerate little upkeep, 1911s will not. I'm only talking about real tactical combat/SD shooting. If it's just to pull out of your safe once in a while, pop a few rnds at the range, and put it back, no biggie, but you would still be better off putting that $$$ into ammo and a few courses with your good basic easy to run DAO pistol.
> 
> I know many people with a bunch of guns, none of which they can shoot very well. I would rather see a person take one good gun, and spend the time and $$$ to get proficient with it. All the years I have been shooting, competing, working with LEO, posting on the topic, etc, etc, know how many guns I own?  Four. 3 1911s and one M4 carbine.
> 
> ...



When I was young my dad competed in IPSC matches. I have no illusions that I have the time to dedicate to that. I have too many other interests that take up time and money for me to compete like that. (my car, muay thai, and being a snowboard instructor are all hobbies i don't plan on giving up) I own multiple guns of multiple calibers and I expect to go to the range 2-3 times a month in the winter and probably 4-5 times during the summer. I may take a course here or there, but I'm not in law enforcement and I don't plan on joining the military.


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## Will Brink (Jan 27, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> When I was young my dad competed in IPSC matches. I have no illusions that I have the time to dedicate to that. I have too many other interests that take up time and money for me to compete like that. (my car, muay thai, and being a snowboard instructor are all hobbies i don't plan on giving up) I own multiple guns of multiple calibers and I expect to go to the range 2-3 times a month in the winter and probably 4-5 times during the summer. I may take a course here or there, but I'm not in law enforcement and I don't plan on joining the military.



You don't need to be either to benefit from courses, etc. As I say, just my two pennies there. Buying new guns is fun, and I know many who do it for collecting/hobby reasons too. Enjoy.


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## bio-chem (Jan 27, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> You don't need to be either to benefit from courses, etc. As I say, just my two pennies there. Buying new guns is fun, and I know many who do it for collecting/hobby reasons too. Enjoy.



thanks for the advice. i appreciate the knowledge


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## mcguin (Jan 27, 2009)

will, although I have an idea what I want, can you offer any advice as far as shotguns go...what makes do you prefer, etc?  I'm looking for something I can use at the range/clay and home defense..I honestly like the tactical shotguns, including mossberg...I'm looking along the lines of a 12g semi or pump


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## mcguin (Jan 27, 2009)

will, although I have an idea what I want, can you offer any advice as far as shotguns go...what makes do you prefer, etc?  I'm looking for something I can use at the range/clay and home defense..I honestly like the tactical shotguns, including mossberg...I'm looking along the lines of a 12g semi or pump...


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## mcguin (Jan 27, 2009)

sorry for the double post


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## Will Brink (Jan 27, 2009)

mcguin said:


> will, although I have an idea what I want, can you offer any advice as far as shotguns go...what makes do you prefer, etc?  I'm looking for something I can use at the range/clay and home defense..I honestly like the tactical shotguns, including mossberg...I'm looking along the lines of a 12g semi or pump



I'm not a big shot gun guy honestly. However, home defense shot guns are different configuration then clay/skeet guns. Skeet guns have long barrels, tactical shot guns have short barrels, different sites, etc. I can't speak for skeet guns, but good choices for home defense shot guns are Remington 870 express or Mossberg 500 series. They are around $300 brand new. Cheap, reliable firepower and what most cops are given. If your budget if higher, there's lots of good choices,* but knowing exactly what it's intended use is, narrows it down. You can't have an optimal clay skeet gun which is also an optimal home/tactical gun. You may need to buy two shotguns.

* = see:

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/17640


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## bio-chem (Jan 27, 2009)

what are your thoughts on home defense shot guns?


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## Will Brink (Jan 27, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> what are your thoughts on home defense shot guns?



See above. Brands listed.


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## bio-chem (Jan 27, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> See above. Brands listed.



let me clarify then. 

your thoughts on a shotgun as a home defense tool as compared to a handgun.


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## Will Brink (Jan 27, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> let me clarify then.
> 
> your thoughts on a shotgun as a home defense tool as compared to a handgun.



That's actually a big debate in the gun community and I not the most qualified person to answer it. You would be amazed how much this gets debated. From a simple ballistics/fire power perspective, the shotgun wins hands down. If that were the only thing that mattered, we would all have LAW rockets...Practical issues of moving around your house with it, bad guy grabbing barrels as you come around the corner, recoil, etc, etc make some feel shot guns are not the optimal choice. Let me say this: the  recommendations by those who study/teach this stuff for a civilian on home defense is: you get you and yours into your bed room, lock the door, call 911,* and let who ever is on the other side the door know you are armed and willing to defend. In that scenario, it's hard to go wrong with a 12g shotgun with OObuck loads.

* = thus, the recommended emergency plan is: good door and lock on a bedroom, phone in room, flashlight, gun, and everyone in house knows the plan.


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## bio-chem (Jan 27, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> That's actually a big debate in the gun community and I not the most qualified person to answer it. You would be amazed how much this gets debated. From a simple ballistics/fire power perspective, the shotgun wins hands down. If that were the only thing that mattered, we would all have LAW rockets...Practical issues of moving around your house with it, bad guy grabbing barrels as you come around the corner, recoil, etc, etc make some feel shot guns are not the optimal choice. Let me say this: the  recommendations by those who study/teach this stuff for a civilian on home defense is: you get you and yours into your bed room, lock the door, call 911,* and let who ever is on the other side the door know you are armed and willing to defend. In that scenario, it's hard to go wrong with a 12g shotgun with OObuck loads.
> 
> * = thus, the recommended emergency plan is: good door and lock on a bedroom, phone in room, flashlight, gun, and everyone in house knows the plan.


good thoughts. I always figured racking a pump shotgun loudly would be a pretty intimidating sound to an intruder who didn't know their way around a dark home


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## Will Brink (Jan 27, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> good thoughts. I always *figured racking a pump shotgun loudly would be a pretty intimidating *sound to an intruder who didn't know their way around a dark home



For sane people, sure. What are they doing in your house knowing/suspecting you are home if they are sane?! 

Regardless, the High Road forum will have some threads on that topic I am sure, and you can decide from there based on your own experience levels, etc, what's best for you. There are some tried and true guidelines for sure, but within them, there is some room for personal decisions. For example, I don't have a shot gun because almost all my training is on handguns, 1911 handguns in particular, so I would rather go to what I am well trained on vs what I am not, regardless of ballistic differences are between shot guns and handguns, etc. I will say, being really good with a shotgun takes much more training then people understand (due to watching too much TV. etc) but following recommended plan above, takes very little skill with a shotgun.


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## Spitfire (Jan 27, 2009)

I third the Springfield 1911, I am planing on building a 1911 with a Springfield frame soon.
I have an account at a few gun forums. I find that all inclusive forums are good for a lot of general stuff but I belong to forums specifically for each gun I own. There is no better way to get info on your specific firearm. 
Also I agree on getting a Mossberg. I plan on gettin one at the next gun show.
I have been planing on getting a Mossberg 500 with a breaching barrel But I just seen this and might change my mind

As far as home protection- A .45 in the night stand, Mossberg in the closet and a concealable in a holster with a clip on it ready to walk out the door. 

As far as a concealable I just got a Kel-tec p11 and love it. Tho I think I might get a new p-3at, its the size of a large wallet. So nice

PS, hello everyone, long time no see


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## min0 lee (Jan 27, 2009)

Spitfire said:


> PS, hello everyone, long time no see


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## clemson357 (Jan 27, 2009)

+1 on glocktalk.com


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## clemson357 (Jan 27, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> There's a reason grunts and cops get DAO glocks, sigs, etc and the  high level combat shooters (SWAT, various SOF, FBI HRT, etc) will use 1911s. They are the king of the combat handgun. However, it takes a lot of training to able to shoot them well and safely under pressure. 3lbs or so of SA trigger, external safties, and such demand it. They are not beginner guns. Two, they are tuned guns that require more upkeep and dedication to the platform for them to be reliable. Glocks, sigs, etc, will tolerate little upkeep, 1911s will not. I'm only talking about real tactical combat/SD shooting. If it's just to pull out of your safe once in a while, pop a few rnds at the range, and put it back, no biggie, but you would still be better off putting that $$$ into ammo and a few courses with your good basic easy to run DAO pistol.
> 
> I know many people with a bunch of guns, none of which they can shoot very well. I would rather see a person take one good gun, and spend the time and $$$ to get proficient with it. All the years I have been shooting, competing, working with LEO, posting on the topic, etc, etc, know how many guns I own?*  Four. 3 1911s and one M4 carbine.*
> 
> ...



DAMN!!!!  You need more guns.

Not just for show or fun, but even just to cover the basics.  You definitely need at least a 22, a large caliber rifle, and a shotgun.  I bet for the price of one of your 1911s, you could get a Ruger 10/22, and Remington 700 .308, and Remington 870 12 gauage.


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## clemson357 (Jan 27, 2009)

Also, please throw in a Glock.  There may come a time when parts become hard to find and you need something indestructible.


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## ALBOB (Jan 27, 2009)

mcguin said:


> if you're going for a 1911, spend the money on a kimber custom, or a springfield, or colt...dont go cheap if you're going to go for the 1911...you wont regret it!



I am absolutely NOT flaming you so please don't take it that way.  I agree with everything in your post except the word "Kimber".  In my opinion Kimbers are the most overrated 1911's on the market.  If I'm going to pay over a thousand dollars on a 1911 I'm going to get a top of the line STI.  To get the most bang for the buck stick with Springfield Armory.


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## ALBOB (Jan 27, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> good thoughts. I always figured racking a pump shotgun loudly would be a pretty intimidating sound to an intruder who didn't know their way around a dark home



This always confused me.  Again, no flames, just my curiosty.  Why wasn't there a round in the chamber in the first place?  Now if there are children in the house I can understand the extra safety consideration.  But that aside, if I've got ANY weapon at the ready I want it to be READY.


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## bio-chem (Jan 27, 2009)

ALBOB said:


> This always confused me.  Again, no flames, just my curiosty.  Why wasn't there a round in the chamber in the first place?  Now if there are children in the house I can understand the extra safety consideration.  But that aside, if I've got ANY weapon at the ready I want it to be READY.



Agreed. I have no problem with that thought. I think my reasoning was simply the intimidation factor. That is pretty much the ultimate get the fuck out because the next thing you will hear will go boom.


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## bio-chem (Jan 27, 2009)

clemson357 said:


> DAMN!!!!  You need more guns.
> 
> Not just for show or fun, but even just to cover the basics.  You definitely need at least a 22, a large caliber rifle, and a shotgun.  I bet for the price of one of your 1911s, you could get a Ruger 10/22, and Remington 700 .308, and Remington 870 12 gauage.



Have you seen the price of the new remington 700's? They are getting pretty damn expensive.

and to each his own. I personally couldn't understand why a guy would need 3 of the same gun model, but then again people question me on why I own 5 snowboards and 2 pairs of ski's. variety for everyone I guess in their own way.


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## Spitfire (Jan 27, 2009)

min0 lee said:


>



Hey, so... do we know if youre a man or women yet?..


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## clemson357 (Jan 27, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> Have you seen the price of the new remington 700's? They are getting pretty damn expensive.
> 
> and to each his own. I personally couldn't understand why a guy would need 3 of the same gun model, but then again people question me on why I own 5 snowboards and 2 pairs of ski's. variety for everyone I guess in their own way.



Well get a Savage if you can't afford a Remington.  Every gun owner needs at least one large caliber rifle.


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## bio-chem (Jan 27, 2009)

Spitfire said:


> Hey, so... do we know if youre a man or women yet?..



WOW. where the hell have you been?

and this thread is about guns. it is not about catching up.

im kidding please continue.


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## bio-chem (Jan 27, 2009)

clemson357 said:


> Well get a Savage if you can't afford a Remington.  Every gun owner needs at least one large caliber rifle.



I tend to agree. I own a winchester M70 in .308 myself. I love that gun


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## 629RWHPstang (Jan 27, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> I'm not a big shot gun guy honestly. However, home defense shot guns are different configuration then clay/skeet guns. Skeet guns have long barrels, tactical shot guns have short barrels, different sites, etc. I can't speak for skeet guns, but good choices for home defense shot guns are Remington 870 express or Mossberg 500 series. They are around $300 brand new. Cheap, reliable firepower and what most cops are given. If your budget if higher, there's lots of good choices,* but knowing exactly what it's intended use is, narrows it down. You can't have an optimal clay skeet gun which is also an optimal home/tactical gun. You may need to buy two shotguns.
> 
> * = see:
> 
> https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/17640




bump i have a mossberg 500 and great gun


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## Spitfire (Jan 27, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> WOW. where the hell have you been?
> 
> and this thread is about guns. it is not about catching up.
> 
> im kidding please continue.


Hey Hey Hey, I posted about guns first... geez
So, did I miss anything, anyone die or anything?..


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## Little Wing (Jan 27, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> Guns > Money
> 
> 
> ha hahaha ah. I'm not sure many here are very good with their money. you are asking the wrong crowd.



*Warren Zevon  Lawyers,  Guns and Money*







YouTube Video


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## bio-chem (Jan 27, 2009)

Spitfire said:


> Hey Hey Hey, I posted about guns first... geez
> So, did I miss anything, anyone die or anything?..



im not sure how long you have been gone. not knowing the true identity of Mino suggests a long time though. the only thing you missed is a couple of severely handicapped individuals being banned. 

DOMS was made a mod of open chat for about 3 1/2 minutes but the power went to his head and Prince had to take it away. (kidding DOMS, I should let you drive my evo for banning danny)


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## Will Brink (Jan 28, 2009)

clemson357 said:


> DAMN!!!!  You need more guns.
> 
> Not just for show or fun, but even just to cover the basics.  You definitely need at least a 22, a large caliber rifle, and a shotgun.  I bet for the price of one of your 1911s, you could get a Ruger 10/22, and Remington 700 .308, and Remington 870 12 gauage.



Not that I am against having them, but I really have no need for either. I'm not  a collector or plinker, I am a shooter, so what ever does not get used or shot, I'm not interested in. Might get a .22 at some point, but I would rather spend money on ammo and courses as I instructed biochem. Last course I took cost over $600 in ammo alone. Regular IDPA matches, range time, etc add up quickly. I would rather see someone own a single Glock, and spend their time on courses and ammo, then by additional guns.


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## Will Brink (Jan 28, 2009)

ALBOB said:


> I am absolutely NOT flaming you so please don't take it that way.  I agree with everything in your post except the word "Kimber".  In my opinion Kimbers are the most overrated 1911's on the market.  If I'm going to pay over a thousand dollars on a 1911 I'm going to get a top of the line STI.  To get the most bang for the buck stick with Springfield Armory.



I would not give Kimber a penny of my money either. Kimber and Para, totally overrated brands well known for problems.


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## Will Brink (Jan 28, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> . I personally couldn't understand why a guy would need 3 of the same gun model, .



Easy, one full sized for competition, hard uses, courses, etc. One commander for CCW, and one back up in case the other two are down, etc. For example, both custom guns are in the shop having some work done, so it's my cheap basic S&W for me right now. Ever put 2000rnd through a gun 2 days? Having a back up is essential if something breaks, and it can and does. I had a slide release break, and all I had to do was go to my bag and grab the back up. Again, people that dont shoot, but plink occasionally and look at their guns in the safe, don't understand what "hard use" is on guns. I may put 1000rnds a month through my guns, and thats low compared to others.


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## Will Brink (Jan 28, 2009)

629RWHPstang said:


> bump i have a mossberg 500 and great gun



I don't know if great is a word i would use, but cheap fire power that gets the job done. A great gun is a benelli m3 super 90 or something.


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## bio-chem (Jan 28, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> Easy, one full sized for competition, hard uses, courses, etc. One commander for CCW, and one back up in case the other two are down, etc. For example, both custom guns are in the shop having some work done, so it's my cheap basic S&W for me right now. Ever put 2000rnd through a gun 2 days? Having a back up is essential if something breaks, and it can and does. I had a slide release break, and all I had to do was go to my bag and grab the back up. Again, people that dont shoot, but plink occasionally and look at their guns in the safe, don't understand what "hard use" is on guns. I may put 1000rnds a month through my guns, and thats low compared to others.



It really wasn't meant to be an attack. I think the rest of my post showed that. Hey, I'm a gear junkie. I think if someone has the money for their particular interest they should go nuts. as long as something hasn't become an addiction, and by that it is starting to ruin other parts of their lives then full speed ahead.


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## Will Brink (Jan 28, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> It really wasn't meant to be an attack.



None taken!



bio-chem said:


> I think the rest of my post showed that. Hey, I'm a gear junkie. I think if someone has the money for their particular interest they should go nuts.



Ummm, you ever see my home theater system? 

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/11808-2stereosetup.jpg

I am a gear junky with guns as well as a pragmatist also however. You're missing some key points. 1911s are the ultimate in "gun gear" in terms of tweaks, configurations, etc, etc. 2 of mine are hand built custom guns. It's a matter of quality vs. quantity. You could buy probably 6 Glocks for the price of one of my 1911s.



bio-chem said:


> as long as something hasn't become an addiction, and by that it is starting to ruin other parts of their lives then full speed ahead.



Agreed. It's all good.


----------



## maniclion (Jan 28, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> good thoughts. I always figured racking a pump shotgun loudly would be a pretty intimidating sound to an intruder who didn't know their way around a dark home


I always figured the sound of my five dogs growling and viciously barking would be an intimidating sound.....and sure enough when I let them outside I see people run across the street when my dogs charge the gate as they are passing by.....


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 28, 2009)

maniclion said:


> I always figured the sound of my five dogs growling and viciously barking would be an intimidating sound.....and sure enough when I let them outside I see people run across the street when my dogs charge the gate as they are passing by.....



nice. 5 loud barking dogs and guns means you've done just about all you can.


----------



## QuestionGuy (Jan 28, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> Im starting to consider a 1911 purchase. I've shot and loved the Taurus 1911. any thoughts or recommendations guys?



I have always been a glock guy, I have a glock 17   9mm and a .40 and it is sure one of the best guns out there, it always shoots, I shot thousands of rounds and and I only had 1 malfunction with it....I also have a stainless 1911 kimber .45 that is as sexy as they come and very accurate, it is not as easy to handle and malfunctions more often but still one damn good gun if you know what your doing.


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 28, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> I have always been a glock guy, I have a glock 17   9mm and a .40 and it is sure one of the best guns out there, it always shoots, I shot thousands of rounds and and I only had 1 malfunction with it....I also have a stainless 1911 kimber .45 that is as sexy as they come and very accurate, it is not as easy to handle and malfunctions more often but still one damn good gun if you know what your doing.



Glocks don't really do it for me. I've shot them and they are accurate, and i have no doubts about the stories of reliability I have heard, but i prefer a gun with a little more sexyness to it. I also like external safeties on a gun. just personal preference here. If I was in Law enforcement I might consider a glock, but a square chunk of plastic and metal doesn't do it for me.

There are some very sexy 1911's out there. Im sure your kimber is one of them.


----------



## ALBOB2 (Jan 28, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> I would not give Kimber a penny of my money either. Kimber and Para, totally overrated brands well known for problems.



I'd agree with you if you'd specified a NEW Para.  I own two; a P-14 and a P-12, both in .45 ACP.  They're both about 15 years old and have functioned flawlessly for the entire time I've owned them.  Newer models seem to be having some major quality control issues.  I believe it has something to do with the substandard steel they're using.

I will grant you the one major problem with ALL Para's is their magazine springs.  You don't have to wait for them to go bad, they come from the factory that way.  If anyone ever buys a Para I recommend they instantly go to Wolff.com and buy a set of extra power magazine springs to save themselves a whole lot of heartache.


----------



## QuestionGuy (Jan 28, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> Glocks don't really do it for me. I've shot them and they are accurate, and i have no doubts about the stories of reliability I have heard, but i prefer a gun with a little more sexyness to it. I also like external safeties on a gun. just personal preference here. If I was in Law enforcement I might consider a glock, but a square chunk of plastic and metal doesn't do it for me.
> 
> There are some very sexy 1911's out there. Im sure your kimber is one of them.



If I jsut bought guns for fun, i would never buy a glock because they are like a fat ugly wife...they are reliable, will never elt you down, will put out when you want to, is good with the children...But the unreliable blonde wiht nice tits will always be more popular.


----------



## themick352 (Jan 28, 2009)

Hello, gotta make a few posts, so I can read my private messages.


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 28, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> If I jsut bought guns for fun, i would never buy a glock because they are like a fat ugly wife...they are reliable, will never elt you down, will put out when you want to, is good with the children...But the unreliable blonde wiht nice tits will always be more popular.



there are plenty of guns out there that are reliable and sexy. you can have both in this little relationship. Sig, beretta, S&W, FHN, and many others all make reliable guns that look sexy and are reliable.


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 28, 2009)

themick352 said:


> Hello, gotta make a few posts, so I can read my private messages.



start your own thread for that


----------



## QuestionGuy (Jan 28, 2009)

oh comon you fucks...It took some decent efford to come up with the fat wife thing you bastards screw you all...No one even gave me props for it !!


----------



## QuestionGuy (Jan 28, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> there are plenty of guns out there that are reliable and sexy. you can have both in this little relationship. Sig, beretta, S&W, FHN, and many others all make reliable guns that look sexy and are reliable.



well, my glock has been by my side and it has always wokred like a charm, I have shot a lot wiht this new 1911 Kimber (god damn im looking at it now and it looks soooo nice, It almost a shame that you spend so much moeny on something you hope enver to use).....All the guys at work report that their 1911 are really good...


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 29, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> oh comon you fucks...It took some decent efford to come up with the fat wife thing you bastards screw you all...No one even gave me props for it !!





it just sounded like a variation of a moped joke to me


----------



## mcguin (Jan 29, 2009)

is there anyway that we can make this a permanent gun thread for future discussions???  id rather read this every day than half of the other crappy religion debated threads where everyone gets into a civil war...not that those are somewhat educating and entertaining...lol


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 29, 2009)

I plan on continuing to post here with more questions and thoughts as I decide on which 1911 to get. This is quite a bit of money to spend on a gun so I want to make the right choice


----------



## Will Brink (Jan 29, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> I plan on continuing to post here with more questions and thoughts as I decide on which 1911 to get. This is quite a bit of money to spend on a gun so I want to make the right choice



You can get an SA GI for around $500 which about the same price of most better quality new guns from Sig, Glock, etc. I wouldn't spend big money on a 1911 not having owned one before, and as mentioned, the great thing about a plane jane 1911 like the SA GI is you can ad mods to it as time goes by up to a true custom build out as you get more $$$.


----------



## mcguin (Jan 29, 2009)

I have a quick question for will or whomever is familiar with glocks, I have a glock 21 .45 acp...I know there are a couple of popular companies that make lasergrips for certain glock models, but havent found one that will work for the model 21...anyone have any ideas of where I could find this?


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## ALBOB (Jan 29, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> You can get an SA GI for around $500 which about the same price of most better quality new guns from Sig, Glock, etc. I wouldn't spend big money on a 1911 not having owned one before, and as mentioned, the great thing about a plane jane 1911 like the SA GI is you can ad mods to it as time goes by up to a true custom build out as you get more $$$.



I would completely agree with that statement except for one little point; the sights on the Springfield Armory GI model absolutey SUCK!!!  They are exactly like the sights from WWII in that they're almost non-existant.  They make accurate shooting VERY difficult.  I agree, get a basic model SA, but make sure it has a good set of sights on it.  You'll find the money is very well spent and you'll enjoy your shooting more.


----------



## KelJu (Jan 29, 2009)

When I get my first permanent house, I am getting a safe to house all the guns that are in my father's safe. I could take on an army with my Remington 11-87 or my Ruger Mini-14.


----------



## KelJu (Jan 29, 2009)

Shit, fuck that. If somebody was trying to hurt me or my family, I would want to hit them in the face with my Browning .30/06. He can't sue me if he doesn't have any of his head left.


----------



## Will Brink (Jan 29, 2009)

ALBOB said:


> I would completely agree with that statement except for one little point; the sights on the Springfield Armory GI model absolutey SUCK!!!  They are exactly like the sights from WWII in that they're almost non-existant.  They make accurate shooting VERY difficult.  I agree, get a basic model SA, but make sure it has a good set of sights on it.  You'll find the money is very well spent and you'll enjoy your shooting more.



At combat/SD distances, I can make one small hole with that gun minus enhanced sites. It takes a while to find what type of sites you actually prefer and or do best with, so throwing high quality 3 dot Novak sites on it or what ever might be a mistake. I don't think it's a bad idea per se, but I still recommend one simply takes it home, puts at least a few thousand rnds through it, and then consider mods. Besides, if you can get good with those sites (or lack there of...) you can be good with anything! 

The only added opinion to that is, yes, if the intent is longer distance slow fire target shooting, then no doubt, good sites will be very helpful. I don't know what he plans to do with it, so your advice might be good for his uses.


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 29, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> At combat/SD distances, I can make one small hole with that gun minus enhanced sites.



isn't the purpose of a .45 for self defense to make a large hole?


----------



## soxmuscle (Jan 29, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> isn't the purpose of a .45 for self defense to make a large hole?



Posts like this are why gun laws are so prevalent.

Hi, my name is bio-chem.  I'm an ass face whose going to be a total prick today.


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 29, 2009)

soxmuscle said:


> Posts like this are why gun laws are so prevalent.
> 
> Hi, my name is bio-chem.  I'm an ass face whose going to be a total prick today.



This is a big boy thread. go away until the diapers come off.


----------



## soxmuscle (Jan 29, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> This is a big boy thread. go away until the diapers come off.



Posts like this are why there are moderators on message boards


----------



## Will Brink (Jan 29, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> isn't the purpose of a .45 for self defense to make a large hole?



Yes, but in small groups.


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 29, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> Yes, but in small groups.



good call.


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 29, 2009)

soxmuscle said:


> Posts like this are why there are moderators on message boards



no really. get out of this thread. unless you are going to talk about guns intelligently. i don't want this thread closed because you got butt hurt on another topic and followed me here.


----------



## Will Brink (Jan 29, 2009)

soxmuscle said:


> Posts like this are why there are moderators on message boards



No, threads like this get closed when people stop attempting to rationally discuss the topic and start flaming each other as you did. Like he said, if you don't have an interest in the topic/something intelligent to add, don't let the screen door hit you in the ass on the way out of the thread.


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 29, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> You can get an SA GI for around $500 which about the same price of most better quality new guns from Sig, Glock, etc. I wouldn't spend big money on a 1911 not having owned one before, and as mentioned, the great thing about a plane jane 1911 like the SA GI is you can ad mods to it as time goes by up to a true custom build out as you get more $$$.



New or used? If used, what do you look for in a used 1911. I don't mind purchasing used guns, but the 1911 is another type of beast for me


----------



## Will Brink (Jan 29, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> New or used?



New. Do a Google search, that's what I was seeing. They are no frills 1911s, but they are well made and make a great base gun for building up as you decide what you want/like in 1911s. If you want to take a big step up for a bit more $$$,  the SA  MC Operator is highly recommended and comes with better everything for a very good price.


----------



## QuestionGuy (Jan 29, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> I plan on continuing to post here with more questions and thoughts as I decide on which 1911 to get. This is quite a bit of money to spend on a gun so I want to make the right choice



if money is not an issue then you need to get the 1911 Nighthawk custom


----------



## Will Brink (Jan 29, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> if money is not an issue then you need to get the 1911 Nighthawk custom



Would not be my first choice personally, but for that kinda of $$$, you can get a true custom gun built to your own specs using parts from different manufacturers. I have a custom built commander using Caspian Titanium frame with everything I wanted for about the $$$ as the nighthawk.


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm thinking I'm willing to spend about $700 dollars or so to start off with. That number can obviously change as I continue to learn more and educate myself. I never buy a gun on a whim. I usually take some time to really figure out what I'm looking for then I wait around till the right deal comes along for that gun.


----------



## Will Brink (Jan 29, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> I'm thinking I'm willing to spend about $700 dollars or so to start off with. That number can obviously change as I continue to learn more and educate myself. I never buy a gun on a whim. I usually take some time to really figure out what I'm looking for then I wait around till the right deal comes along for that gun.



The next gun above the SA GI is the Mil Spec. I believe it's in that price range.


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 29, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> The next gun above the SA GI is the Mil Spec. I believe it's in that price range.



but you feel with out question springfield armory of all the makers is the way to go? I only ask because the 3 1911's you have named have all been SA


----------



## Will Brink (Jan 29, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> but you feel with out question springfield armory of all the makers is the way to go? I only ask because the 3 1911's you have named have all been SA



It's funny, I don't own an SA. I think in the price range they make a solid product. You could of course get a Colt, but they cost a bit more. SnW also makes a good 1911 for around $700, and I do have one of them and have been happy with it, and it does have more custom features on it. There's also Para and Kimber, as well as other brands and you will see endless debates about their quality etc. There's a lot of choices and a lot of opinions. For example, go to:

1911Forum.com - 1911 news, reviews, and more!

Nothing but talk of 1911s there. No gun has a bigger cult following (or is that Colt?!) then the 1911. 

I will say SA has been building 1911s almost as long as Colt, they generally havea very good rep, and I know many Smiths like to use the SA GI as a "base gun" for building on because it's well made and the person didn't invest that much. 

I think until you know if you're a "1911 kinda guy" get least expensive - but well built - 1911 and blast away for a while. Try some other more expensive models and see what you like and dont like. I purchased the S&W basic 1911 for around $600 (can't get SA guns in MA) and stuck with that for a while 'till I got a sense of whether or not I liked them, and if i did, what did I want on it? You could also buy used, and that's a good option. That forum above I bet has some good threads on what to look for in a used 1911. I purchased a used Colt Series 70 for $600 bucks, then had it customized top to bottom:


----------



## ALBOB (Jan 30, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> At combat/SD distances, I can make one small hole with that gun minus enhanced sites. It takes a while to find what type of sites you actually prefer and or do best with, so throwing high quality 3 dot Novak sites on it or what ever might be a mistake. I don't think it's a bad idea per se, but I still recommend one simply takes it home, puts at least a few thousand rnds through it, and then consider mods. Besides, if you can get good with those sites (or lack there of...) you can be good with anything!
> 
> The only added opinion to that is, yes, if the intent is longer distance slow fire target shooting, then no doubt, good sites will be very helpful. I don't know what he plans to do with it, so your advice might be good for his uses.




Touche'.  Very good point.  I guess I shouldn't have said it wasn't possible to shoot them well.  Of coures with practice most anything can be done with an original GI model.  My actual consideration was follow-up shots.  Pure accuracy can be acheived with GI sights, but quick accurate follow-up shots are much easier with a good set of combat sights.  And as purely a $$$ matter, it's cheaper to buy a gun that has them from the factory as opposed to buying an aftermarket set and having a smith install them.


----------



## Will Brink (Jan 30, 2009)

ALBOB said:


> Touche'.  Very good point.  I guess I shouldn't have said it wasn't possible to shoot them well.  Of coures with practice most anything can be done with an original GI model.  My actual consideration was follow-up shots.



I don't have any problems shooting quick combat accurate groups with any 1911 more or less. In fact, I shot an IDPA match last weekend with a 1911 that has no front site at all as it fell off the week before at the range and my other two guns were with the smith having some work done. If your site picture/stance/presentation is all muscle memory, sites more or less are not a big factor in terms of SD/tactical shooting. Target shooting is another matter totally of course.



ALBOB said:


> Pure accuracy can be acheived with GI sights, but quick accurate follow-up shots are much easier with a good set of combat sights.



Sure, but what makes "good" combat sites? 3 dot Novak? Others? I don't like 3 dot for example and prefer either black "notched" rear site with front post  or XS sites:

XS Sight Systems - Handgun Sights - 24/7 Express


The above are the fastest shooting combat/SD sites there is, but are harder to master so some don't like them. Once you get used them/work with them, nothing gets you a site picture faster.



ALBOB said:


> And as purely a $$$ matter, it's cheaper to buy a gun that has them from the factory as opposed to buying an aftermarket set and having a smith install them.



Sure, but what ever you buy will simply have some 3 dot Novak sits on them. Nothing wrong with that as they are a good blend of target/accuracy and combat site, but there are many choices out there, so I see any rush to get to sites, etc. But, as mentioned, above the plane jane GI model by SA or Colt, for a few $$$ more, you get better sites, etc.


----------



## ALBOB (Jan 30, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> I don't have any problems shooting quick combat accurate groups with any 1911 more or less. In fact, I shot an IDPA match last weekend with a 1911 that has no front site at all as it fell off the week before at the range and my other two guns were with the smith having some work done. If your site picture/stance/presentation is all muscle memory, sites more or less are not a big factor in terms of SD/tactical shooting. Target shooting is another matter totally of course.



Oh I'm definitely not saying it CAN'T be done, but you've got to admit what you just described would have been a heck of a lot easier with a good set of combat sight, right?





WillBrink said:


> Sure, but what makes "good" combat sites? 3 dot Novak? Others? I don't like 3 dot for example and prefer either black "notched" rear site with front post  or XS sites:
> 
> XS Sight Systems - Handgun Sights - 24/7 Express
> 
> ...



I'm in complete agreement on three dots.  I find they're more of a distraction than an aiming aid.  My preference is something like this:

Fixed Novak Style Combat Sight


----------



## Will Brink (Jan 31, 2009)

ALBOB said:


> Oh I'm definitely not saying it CAN'T be done, but you've got to admit what you just described would have been a heck of a lot easier with a good set of combat sight, right?



Yes, if the person is shooting site dominant style, but I have to say that once I learned to be less reliant on sites and more muscle memory/reflexive in the shooting, I don't think it will matter much.







ALBOB said:


> I'm in complete agreement on three dots.  I find they're more of a distraction than an aiming aid.  My preference is something like this:
> 
> Fixed Novak Style Combat Sight



Yup, that's essentially what I have on that gun above in the pic. Notched black rear and front site from the company above XS sites systems. BTW, nothing is faster for a site picture then the XS system and that's what I have on any CCW/SD gun. but the one above, which is a bit of a hybrid set up I wanted to try out.


----------



## mcguin (Jan 31, 2009)

2 hours and 300 rounds later I just had the freakin sweetest time at the range.  I found this new indoor pistol range, checked out with a buddy and had blast.  I couldn't believe how well I was doing after about 100 rounds.  This guy at the range who was also an emphatic glock owner showed me a neat little tip when shooting, by keeping your trigger finger down on the trigger after firing, it keeps it a lower pressure to pull and my shots were grouping closer and closer together, it was awesome!  I also shot a military edition beretta 92...wasn't as impressed as I thought I was going to be.  Definitely a nice gun, but nothing crazy...I decided I'm definitely going with a sw .357 mag rev. for my next pistol.  But wow, It's amazing how addictive shooting can be...probably the best hobby I ever picked up!


----------



## Mr. CAS (Jan 31, 2009)

been going to the range for some time now and thinks its about that time to purchase my own, any suggestion on what get for a first time gun puchase.


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 31, 2009)

Mr. CAS said:


> been going to the range for some time now and thinks its about that time to purchase my own, any suggestion on what get for a first time gun puchase.



there are a lot of guns out there. give us a little more back ground. What guns have you shot? what caliber are you interested in? what are you looking to do with it? Concealed Carry? shoot it every once in a while at the range? 

 give us a little more background and i'm sure you will be given some pretty good advice on this forum. most of the guys here are pretty knowledgeable and happy to share advice.


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## bio-chem (Feb 8, 2009)

just went to the range on friday my buddy bought one of thesehttp://www.paraord.com/new/product_pistol.php?id=20
loved it. This will be his concealed carry.

I just bought a new FNP - Products - FN Manufacturing, LLC
that is a fun gun to shoot as well. and with the price of ammo its nice to have a 9mm floating around. I'm going to have to start reloading again I can tell.

So what is everyones thoughts on the taurus 1911? what has anyone heard good/bad?


----------



## bio-chem (Feb 8, 2009)

Para USA, High-Quality Handguns: GI Expert

I'm really liking the looks of this one for a base 1911. 

Will, you heard anything about a new tax on gun powder?


----------



## ALBOB (Feb 9, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> Para USA, High-Quality Handguns: GI Expert
> 
> I'm really liking the looks of this one for a base 1911.
> 
> Will, you heard anything about a new tax on gun powder?



As I stated before, I own two Para's and love them, but they're older.  Not sure I'd buy a new one these days due to some big time quality control issues.  Most of the issues seem to revolve around the steel they use for their frames and slides.  I've heard a lot of stories about cracking on newer Para's.  If you want a good entry level 1911 for a decent price check out Springfield Armory, top notch gun at bargain prices.  I've also been hearing goog things about Rock Island Armory.  No experience with them, just been hearing good things.

I've heard our loyal shitheads in Washington D.C. are trying to tax anything and everything pertaining to guns.  Seems it's all talk at this point.  The general populace is too pissed off about the economy already.  If they tried to mess with guns right now there's a good chance there would be a revolt.  (Not that I think that would be a bad thing.)


----------



## Will Brink (Feb 9, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> Para USA, High-Quality Handguns: GI Expert
> 
> I'm really liking the looks of this one for a base 1911.



Looks like it's equiv to the SA Mil-Spec:

Springfield Armory

Para is a Canadian company, what do they know of 1911s?! 



bio-chem said:


> Will, you heard anything about a new tax on gun powder?



Have not heard about a new tax on gun powder, but it would not surprise me with current anti 2A/anti Liberty group in the White House.


----------



## bio-chem (Feb 9, 2009)

ALBOB said:


> As I stated before, I own two Para's and love them, but they're older.  Not sure I'd buy a new one these days due to some big time quality control issues.  Most of the issues seem to revolve around the steel they use for their frames and slides.  I've heard a lot of stories about cracking on newer Para's.  If you want a good entry level 1911 for a decent price check out Springfield Armory, top notch gun at bargain prices.  I've also been hearing goog things about Rock Island Armory.  No experience with them, just been hearing good things.
> 
> I've heard our loyal shitheads in Washington D.C. are trying to tax anything and everything pertaining to guns.  Seems it's all talk at this point.  The general populace is too pissed off about the economy already.  If they tried to mess with guns right now there's a good chance there would be a revolt.  (Not that I think that would be a bad thing.)


Lets hope that all this stays just talk at the moment.

thanks for the thoughts on Para


----------



## bio-chem (Feb 9, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> Para is a Canadian company, what do they know of 1911s?!
> 
> :



hahh. i hadn't thought of that


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## Will Brink (Feb 27, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> hahh. i hadn't thought of that




So how did you make out? Here's a vid from the indoor range. I was actually there to test a gun that had been giving me some troubles (type 2 feed ramp stuff) so it was mostly quick shooting to get rnds down range to see if the problem was fixed with a change of mag springs and recoil spring. Anyway, had my cam with me from another project I was doing. The groups aint beautiful, but considering the distance and rate of fire, It's acceptable. First string was 40ft, the second, was 20 yards to the back of the indoor range. I'm no Rob Lathem, that's for damn sure, but my distance stuff has improved, where everything is within say a palm sized group that is not slow fire shooting. 






YouTube Video











For some reason, I can't seem to get the code to work above, so:

YouTube - RangeDay1

If some one can fix, please do


----------



## bio-chem (Feb 27, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> So how did you make out? Here's a vid from the indoor range. I was actually there to test a gun that had been giving me some troubles (type 2 feed ramp stuff) so it was mostly quick shooting to get rnds down range to see if the problem was fixed with a change of mag springs and recoil spring. Anyway, had my cam with me from another project I was doing. The groups aint beautiful, but considering the distance and rate of fire, It's acceptable. First string was 40ft, the second, was 20 yards to the back of the indoor range. I'm no Rob Lathem, that's for damn sure, but my distance stuff has improved, where everything is within say a palm sized group that is not slow fire shooting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



truthfully i'm still looking. I've got the money sitting here, now im waiting for the right gun to come along. I've been shooting my .40 cal px4 storm a lot recently and really enjoying that. The 1911 is next on my list of purchases, but making the final decision on which one is very tough at the moment.

nicely done for distance shooting


----------



## mcguin (Feb 28, 2009)

question for will or whomever,  for my next handgun, if you had the choice between the two, would you go for a s&w .357 rev. or a .44 mag?


----------



## Will Brink (Feb 28, 2009)

mcguin said:


> question for will or whomever,  for my next handgun, if you had the choice between the two, would you go for a s&w .357 rev. or a .44 mag?



If I could only choose between those? .44 Mag. .357 is perhaps the most overrated rnd in history and is based on old concepts of ballistics.


----------



## Arnold (Feb 28, 2009)

Instructions on embedding YouTube vids


----------



## bio-chem (Feb 28, 2009)

mcguin said:


> question for will or whomever,  for my next handgun, if you had the choice between the two, would you go for a s&w .357 rev. or a .44 mag?



depends on what you are looking for? remember there is a reason will owns 3 different 1911's and little else. Tell us a little bit about how often you are going to shoot it, where, and for what purpose? then let people give you advice. just like with bodybuilding there are different goals and different approaches. I own both a ruger redhawk .44mag and a ruger security six .357 both are excellent hand guns for their purpose, but those purposes are very different.


----------



## Will Brink (May 16, 2009)

Tough ol' bird right here.... a worthy vid to watch of a man who refused to be a victim:






YouTube Video


----------



## ROID (May 16, 2009)

I haven't read any of these threads but I've been drinking again.

I gotta 45 ruger P92.


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 13, 2009)

so i decided to put the 1911 on hold for a bit and purchased the sig saur p220 carry now that I have my CCW. I love this gun


----------



## Burner02 (Jul 13, 2009)

Was thinking of getting my carry permit when I cme back to the world. Was looking at compact 45. Saw a quick article on a new S&W 45. Supposed to be small, light and reliable.
Any comments or recommendations for a carry?
I bought a Sig Saur P226 navy for target. But, its too big/heavy fro much anything else than target.


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 13, 2009)

will would have a better recomendation than I. I'm sure i would pick a caliber for concealed carry and then find the right gun for that. I mean .380 auto is going to give you different options than a .45 for concealed carry. I've got to admit that I like revolvers for concealed carry. there are some good .38specials out there for that. Lots of preferences lots of choices. what are your criteria?


----------



## Burner02 (Jul 14, 2009)

Well, IF...you ever had to pull a weapon, the other person seeing said weapon, whatever it would be would be an instant 'mood' changer. 
I figure the bigger caliber; 45 would be a stopper. If I recall, most little weapons really aren't accurate after what...15-20 feet or much more? (not that you need more...if they are further than that, they are not a threat)
I had thought about a 38. 
I just want somethig that is relatively comapct, light and 1 round will be enough.


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 14, 2009)

Burner02 said:


> Well, IF...you ever had to pull a weapon, the other person seeing said weapon, whatever it would be would be an instant 'mood' changer.
> I figure the bigger caliber; 45 would be a stopper. If I recall, most little weapons really aren't accurate after what...15-20 feet or much more? (not that you need more...if they are further than that, they are not a threat)
> I had thought about a 38.
> I just want somethig that is relatively comapct, light and 1 round will be enough.



MnP series from S&W, XD series from SA, or Glock.

Any of those.


----------



## Burner02 (Jul 14, 2009)

thanks


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 14, 2009)

Burner02 said:


> thanks



Those brands/models are Reliable, well built, low maintenance, and priced right. Don't get caught up in 1911 style pistols unless you plan on dedicating yourself to 1911 style pistols, which cost more, require more training, and regular maintenance to be reliable.


----------



## ZECH (Jul 14, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> MnP series from S&W, XD series from SA, or Glock.
> 
> Any of those.



Yep, agree. I carry a 22c glock. It also has a laser in it. I don't won't to carry anything else. All the full time guys went to the .357 SIG. But I talked my chief into letting me keep my Glock which I have carried for 8 yrs or so now.


----------



## The Monkey Man (Jul 14, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> MnP series from S&W, XD series from SA, or Glock.
> 
> Any of those.



Lets not forget H&K...

I used to carry Taurus PT145.
Capacity is 10+1 of .45, in a palm of your hand package.

DAO, Difficult to master, and I only used to pack 7rounds in it for weight savings.
I never planned to shoot anything at more than 15-20ft
and if I ever fired it, it probably would have been from the pocket
of a jacket or hoodie at point-blank range.

I had a full frame H&K USP45 for home, w/light and laser
Used +P frangible ammo in both.


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 14, 2009)

The Monkey Man said:


> Lets not forget H&K...



HK is well regarded, just pricey. I gave lower cost but well made and reliable brands. The HK USP .45 is one of the all time best combat handguns, but the MnP is probably 80% as good for half the price. I try not to throw too many brands at people to start with or they just get confused and end up buying something that does not fit their needs and or they could have done better for the $$$. Sig would also be a good option, etc.

I will say the MnP is currently considered the best gun for the $$$ right now by those who really know combat handguns.


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 14, 2009)

dg806 said:


> Yep, agree. I carry a 22c glock. It also has a laser in it. I don't won't to carry anything else. All the full time guys went to the .357 SIG. But I talked my chief into letting me keep my Glock which I have carried for 8 yrs or so now.




You are mixing calibers with brands. You can get a Glock in .357 Sig. Do they want Glocks in .357 Sig or something else? I don't see any use for the .357 Sig personally, but that's another issue...


----------



## maniclion (Jul 14, 2009)

You mean you guys don't all have Sig210s?

If I carried a gun I'd have this one and wear a trenchcoat everywhere.....


----------



## ZECH (Jul 14, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> You are mixing calibers with brands. You can get a Glock in .357 Sig. Do they want Glocks in .357 Sig or something else? I don't see any use for the .357 Sig personally, but that's another issue...



They carry p229's (in 357). Switched from Para Ord.
I kept my glock the whole time. I don't care the the .357 Sig either.


----------



## NightTrain (Jul 14, 2009)

i carry a Taurus PT145............


----------



## The Monkey Man (Jul 15, 2009)

NightTrain said:


> i carry a Taurus PT145............


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 15, 2009)

Hey Will. Any good .45 hand loading recipes for target/plinking? Its time to start reloading again so I was wondering if you had anything you really liked to use as a starting point as I play around trying to find what works best for me.


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 15, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> Hey Will. Any good .45 hand loading recipes for target/plinking? Its time to start reloading again so I was wondering if you had anything you really liked to use as a starting point as I play around trying to find what works best for me.



Don't have any good info for you there. I'm not a reloader myself.


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 15, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> Don't have any good info for you there. I'm not a reloader myself.



kind of surprising. you buy factory then?


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 15, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> kind of surprising. you buy factory then?



Yes, or people I know who reload give me some. I'm surprised I don't either, but I have been too lazy to deal with it/learn it, and the factory stuff always works better then any reloads anyway in my guns, and in terms of time spent learning/doing stuff gun related, I am trying to learn some minor smithing work for 1911s, or can be found on the range or at and IDPA match, or shooting with the SWAT team I am currently working with, etc. Only so much time in the day I guess.....


----------



## The Monkey Man (Jul 15, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> kind of surprising. you buy factory then?



I used to have the guys from my action league reload for my range practice
and league matches...

Even though most of the guys shot a special load, and CAL.
for target or match, I made sure the guys loaded me with a similar
weight and grain to the real stuff, so the difference wouldn't be so grand
between practice, and "oh-shit".

I paid them a bit more, but I think its worth it.


----------



## maniclion (Jul 15, 2009)

The Monkey Man said:


> I used to have the guys from *my action league* reload for my range practice
> and league matches...


Is that like the Justice League but made up of Urban Legends from different cultures, e.g Big Foot, Chupacabra, Monkey Man, Alabama Leprechaun, Min0 Lee, etc.


----------



## The Monkey Man (Jul 15, 2009)

maniclion said:


> Is that like the Justice League but made up of Urban Legends from different cultures, e.g Big Foot, Chupacabra, Monkey Man, Alabama Leprechaun, Min0 Lee, etc.



You forgot the "Abbagoochie"...
and the "Mangi'"

But, no.  It was a Police Action shooting league.


----------



## The Monkey Man (Jul 15, 2009)

Besides...

THE MONKEY MAN,

is far superior to that of your other creatures,

and the non reinforced alloy superstructure of your
broken-down rusted-out shit box.


----------



## ZECH (Jul 16, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> Yes, or people I know who reload give me some. I'm surprised I don't either, but I have been too lazy to deal with it/learn it, and the factory stuff always works better then any reloads anyway in my guns, and in terms of time spent learning/doing stuff gun related, I am trying to learn some minor smithing work for 1911s, or can be found on the range or at and IDPA match, or shooting with the SWAT team I am currently working with, etc. Only so much time in the day I guess.....



It's not actually hard at all. With any initial investment of under 1k, you can have all you need. Someone like you who does a lot of shooting, could save a ton of money. I shoot some of my reloads and never have problems.
But it does take time to do it. And some people are pressed for time.


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 16, 2009)

dg806 said:


> It's not actually hard at all. With any initial investment of under 1k, you can have all you need. Someone like you who does a lot of shooting, could save a ton of money. I shoot some of my reloads and never have problems.
> But it does take time to do it. And some people are pressed for time.



No doubt, I really should learn it. It's on my list!


----------



## ZECH (Jul 16, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> No doubt, I really should learn it. It's on my list!



I highly recommend Dillion. Be sure to sign up for the monthly Blue Press magazine.
Dillon Precision: Reloaders, Reloading Equipment, Bullet Reloading, Bullet Reloaders


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 16, 2009)

dg806 said:


> I highly recommend Dillion. Be sure to sign up for the monthly Blue Press magazine.
> Dillon Precision: Reloaders, Reloading Equipment, Bullet Reloading, Bullet Reloaders



Many have recommended the Dillon brand to me.


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 16, 2009)

any good reloading manuals out there?


----------



## slackadjuster (Jul 16, 2009)

I've been hitting the local gun shows for paper punchers.  It's getting pricey!
Oh yeah....new here..sorry..Springfield XD40.

This is better than the gun boards I go to.


----------



## min0 lee (Jul 16, 2009)

At first I said nice gun but then I saw the cup holder and I was like wow.


----------



## Burner02 (Jul 16, 2009)

An interesting letter in the Australian Shooter Magazine
this week, which I quote:





"If you consider that there has been an average of 160,000 troops in the Iraq theater of operations during the past 22 months, and a total of 2112 deaths, that gives a firearm death rate of 60 per 100,000 soldiers.

The firearm death rate in Washington DC is 80.6 per 100,000 for the same period. That means you are about 25 per cent more likely to be shot and killed in the US capital, which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the US, than you are in Iraq .

Conclusion? The US should pull out of Washington .."


----------



## ZECH (Jul 17, 2009)

slackadjuster said:


> I've been hitting the local gun shows for paper punchers.  It's getting pricey!
> Oh yeah....new here..sorry..Springfield XD40.
> 
> This is better than the gun boards I go to.



The XD40 is nice!


----------



## ZECH (Jul 17, 2009)

Burner02 said:


> An interesting letter in the Australian Shooter Magazine
> this week, which I quote:
> 
> 
> ...



Better stay put Burner!  Nah............come on back and we can reload and pick off the thugs!


----------



## The Monkey Man (Jul 17, 2009)

min0 lee said:


>



If I had to guess, I would say its a remington 700 action rifle,
with an adjustable sniper stock.    I think they have a magazine on these,
instead of the standard 3-round clip?...
Hmmm (duh) perhaps thats it right there in the bag on the table?


----------



## ALBOB (Jul 18, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> Hey Will. Any good .45 hand loading recipes for target/plinking? Its time to start reloading again so I was wondering if you had anything you really liked to use as a starting point as I play around trying to find what works best for me.




Find a good source for 200 grain lead semi-wadcutters (LSWC)(I like Laser Cast myself.) and put them over 6.0 grains of Unique.  VERY accurate load with very mild recoil.  Can shoot 'em all day and not have a blister on the web of your hand. 

Second on the Dillon recommendation.  I've been using Dillon products to pump out thousands of rounds per year for almost 20 years.  The only times they have ever let me down have been problems that I caused.  And even then, with Dillons "No BS" warranty they sent me new parts the same day I called. Bravo Dillon.


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 18, 2009)

ALBOB said:


> Find a good source for 200 grain lead semi-wadcutters (LSWC)(I like Laser Cast myself.) and put them over 6.0 grains of Unique.  VERY accurate load with very mild recoil.  Can shoot 'em all day and not have a blister on the web of your hand.
> 
> Second on the Dillon recommendation.  I've been using Dillon products to pump out thousands of rounds per year for almost 20 years.  The only times they have ever let me down have been problems that I caused.  And even then, with Dillons "No BS" warranty they sent me new parts the same day I called. Bravo Dillon.


I appreciate the hand load. Ill have to look into it.


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 18, 2009)

Well I just got back from my first trip to the range with my new gun. Sig P220 carry. I'm in love with this gun. I can understand why Sig keeps it's resale value so well now. that was just a damn fun outing to the range.


----------



## mcguin (Jul 20, 2009)

well all you gun lovers out there, I regret to have to report that the New Jersey liberals are at it again!!!  WE took a major loss this month with the passing of a state bill which denies citizens the right to purchase more than one handgun in a month...


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 20, 2009)

mcguin said:


> well all you gun lovers out there, I regret to have to report that the New Jersey liberals are at it again!!!  WE took a major loss this month with the passing of a state bill which denies citizens the right to purchase more than one handgun in a month...



what kind of crap is that? it blows me away that those are the people new jersey residents choose to elect. my gosh. How will this in any way effect crime? if you are in new jersey it's time to move


----------



## stephenpaul6557 (Jul 20, 2009)

I have heard of Glocktalk.com. I heard it was a good gun site, I haven't checked it out yet.


----------



## ALBOB (Jul 20, 2009)

stephenpaul6557 said:


> I have heard of Glocktalk.com. I heard it was a good gun site, I haven't checked it out yet.



Check out AR15.com also.  Besides the obvious interest in the black rifle, they also have hometown forums and sub forums for all the other types of firearms.  Pretty cool site.........................but not as cool as this one.


----------



## mcguin (Jul 20, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> what kind of crap is that? it blows me away that those are the people new jersey residents choose to elect. my gosh. How will this in any way effect crime? if you are in new jersey it's time to move



Here's a quick version of the situation here in NJ.  You have two northern counties made up of middle class hard working moderate/conservative republicans who are pro hunting and pro farming.  THen you have the middle and lower counties of NJ made up of city slickers who despise firearms for the simple fact that they are afraid of them, probably never have picked one up in their lifetimes.  So our lovely governor and state legislators who are 90% middle and lower counties would rather waste everyones time passing bills which they know will pass due to a silent minority.  This is one of the most corrupt states in the country among a few other good ones.  Property taxes are ridiculous, state income taxes are ridiculous and all we have to show for it is one gun a month!


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 20, 2009)

mcguin said:


> Here's a quick version of the situation here in NJ.  You have two northern counties made up of middle class hard working moderate/conservative republicans who are pro hunting and pro farming.  THen you have the middle and lower counties of NJ made up of city slickers who despise firearms for the simple fact that they are afraid of them, probably never have picked one up in their lifetimes.  So our lovely governor and state legislators who are 90% middle and lower counties would rather waste everyones time passing bills which they know will pass due to a silent minority.  This is one of the most corrupt states in the country among a few other good ones.  Property taxes are ridiculous, state income taxes are ridiculous and all we have to show for it is one gun a month!



wow. telling me i can't do something or limiting what i can do bothers me. im sure i would buy a gun every month if they tried to limit me. and then id buy another on top of that from a private seller just because I was angry.  My gun collection would explode if I lived i n NJ


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 22, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> wow. telling me i can't do something or limiting what i can do bothers me. im sure i would buy a gun every month if they tried to limit me. and then id buy another on top of that from a private seller just because I was angry.  My gun collection would explode if I lived i n NJ



Gun and ammo sales have exploded since Obama has been in office and it shows no signs of slowing down. Sales of AR15s and AKs took a huge jump up before the last AWBs, etc. These morons never learn...


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 22, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> Gun and ammo sales have exploded since Obama has been in office and it shows no signs of slowing down. Sales of AR15s and AKs took a huge jump up before the last AWBs, etc. These morons never learn...



How can they? their core understanding of humanity is flawed. they think they can fix the world by signing a piece of paper.They are like doctors who focus on the symptom and not the root cause.


----------



## The Monkey Man (Jul 24, 2009)

ALBOB said:


> Check out AR15.com also. Besides the obvious interest in the black rifle, they also have hometown forums and sub forums for all the other types of firearms. Pretty cool site.........................but not as cool as this one.


 
I always seemed to get good info from these guys...
Collecting and Shooting the Military Surplus Rifle (2006) - Surplusrifle.com

Of course I think I owned 4 SKS's at one point - 

And GUNBROKER auction site has info as well as buy and sell's


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 29, 2009)

The Monkey Man said:


> I always seemed to get good info from these guys...
> Collecting and Shooting the Military Surplus Rifle (2006) - Surplusrifle.com
> 
> Of course I think I owned 4 SKS's at one point -
> ...



great site to look at


----------



## min0 lee (Jul 29, 2009)

*Up in arms over gun: Replica rifle has Brooklyn man at odds with cops*

 						          			                                               				 				 				BY Joseph Goldstein 
DAILY NEWS WRITER 				
 								  						  						  				 					  						  				 				 				    				  Wednesday, July 29th 2009,  4:00 AM 			   





  								Zalcman for News  								Michael Littlejohn holds the custom-made rifle in question. 

*Take our Poll*


*Up in arms*

       Do you believe Michael Littlejohn should be allowed to keep his handmade replica of a flintlock rifle?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes. It's clear the gun will never pose a threat to anyone's safety.                     
                                                                                                             No. Since he does not have a license, the police have a right to take it away.                     





*Related News*

*Articles*


Daly: Sen. Thune's whacky gun plan misses the mark
Concealed guns legislation narrowly defeated in the Senate
Mayor Bloomberg: Ax 'terrible' gun bill
 
 										 				    										    			    	     		 		 				 									Like America's first soldiers at the Battle of Brooklyn, Michael Littlejohn is fighting for his right to bear arms.
 The Revolutionary War buff charges the Bloomberg administration with tyranny for trying to seize his handmade flintlock rifle - a dead ringer for the weapon once used against the redcoats. 
 "This is the last legal gun that you can have without registration in New York," Littlejohn said. "And yet Mayor Bloomberg is driven crazy by my flintlock gun - the one that won the American Revolution." 
 Littlejohn fired the first shot when he hired a Tennessee blacksmith to recreate the vintage rifle. It arrived at his Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn, apartment in June - followed quickly by city cops. 
 Police claim it's illegal for Littlejohn to keep the flintlock without a gun license. 
 Littlejohn, 50, cites the earliest American patriots as his inspiration while refusing to surrender his firearm or apply for a license. 
 The social worker is also clinging to a little-known exemption in the city's strict gun laws. 
 The loophole allows license-free ownership of "antique firearms" - defined as rifles that require the bullet and gunpowder to be loaded separately. 
 Littlejohn's rifle appears to fit the bill. 
 Loading the weapon, he explains, is a multistep process that takes several pokes with a ramrod and up to a minute to complete. 
 To fire, the rifle relies on a sharpened piece of flint that produces a spark when the trigger is pulled. That point is moot, Littlejohn says: He doesn't own gunpowder or bullets. 
 That's not enough to make the NYPD retreat. 
 The cops visited Littlejohn's apartment and sat down this month with the Tennessee blacksmith who forged the rifle. 
 The lead detective on the case told Littlejohn's lawyer that he had orders "from higher-ups" to pursue the case, according to an e-mail the lawyer sent to Littlejohn. 
 Littlejohn's interest in the Revolutionary War dates to his childhood. He grew up playing tag outside the upstate Newburgh house used in 1782-83 as Gen. George Washington's headquarters. 
 As an adult, he joined in Colonial American reenactments in Virginia and Georgia. 
 The NYPD learned about Littlejohn's $825 rifle when he left a receipt inside a Staples copy center, prompting a call to the cops. 
 Cops aren't threatening to arrest Littlejohn - yet. Lawyer Joyce David, who represented Littlejohn until it became too expensive, says her ex-client could wind up with a summons. 
 A police source says the war could end peacefully if Littlejohn applied for a permit with the NYPD handgun license division. 
 Littlejohn would rather fight. The Brooklynite says he's willing to sue for his rifle rights.

Read more: Up in arms over gun: Replica rifle has Brooklyn man at odds with cops
​


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 29, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> *Up in arms over gun: Replica rifle has Brooklyn man at odds with cops*




Poll is currently running at 95% in his favor. Remember, only the wealthy elite who can afford bodyguards and criminals should have guns in NYC according the mayor


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 29, 2009)

Not a very strong endorsement of NYC mino. Don't your guys have better things to do than harass this guy?


----------



## min0 lee (Jul 29, 2009)

Don't include me in it, it just shows you how hard it is for a honest person to own one.

The laws favor the criminals here in NYC.

This guy had his windows wired to electric to protect his home....a burglar got zapped...he sued ..and won.


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 29, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> Don't include me in it, it just shows you how hard it is for a honest person to own one.
> 
> The laws favor the criminals here in NYC.
> 
> This guy had his windows wired to electric to protect his home....a burglar got zapped...he sued ..and won.



you guys are the ones voting in the representatives and judges. Im just saying


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 29, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> Don't include me in it, it just shows you how hard it is for a honest person to own one.
> .



Unless you're rich and or famous. Don't forget that part. Gun laws are by their nature elitist and racist. Trump, Bloom-turd, etc are surrounded by men with guns who protect them. It's easy to take others method of protection away when you will never have to worry about your own.


----------



## min0 lee (Jul 29, 2009)

Now you guys get an idea why we don't know a thing about guns.


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 29, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> Now you guys get an idea why we don't know a thing about guns.



That's the beauty of the 'net. "They" no longer control the flow of information via the local news and news papers. As MLK said (who was a gun owner BTW) "No lie lives forever"


----------



## maniclion (Jul 29, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> *Up in arms over gun: Replica rifle has Brooklyn man at odds with cops*
> 
> BY Joseph Goldstein
> DAILY NEWS WRITER
> ...


What I want to know is what kind of paranoid mind calls the cops because they found a receipt for a gun?


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 29, 2009)

maniclion said:


> What I want to know is what kind of paranoid mind calls the cops because they found a receipt for a gun?



the same mind that thinks gun control lowers crime rates


----------



## Hose-Zay (Jul 31, 2009)

There is a Smith and Wesson forum but it is hard or was hard to get into. I think it got sold.  Some very smart people in there


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 31, 2009)

maniclion said:


> What I want to know is what kind of paranoid mind calls the cops because they found a receipt for a gun?



The same people who think criminals mail their guns to themselves via a copy center!


----------



## mcguin (Jul 31, 2009)

NYC is extremely liberal compared to the tristate area, NYC and Middle NJ have all of these a**holes running a muck.  Bloomberg came on board as mayor posing as a decent moderate guy who had some common sense, but just like most politicians it was all an act.  Bring Giuliani back!  But yea, owning a gun in NYC is next to impossible, you would have to move up to hudson or westchester county to enjoy such freedoms.  Or just go to PA where you can easily obtain your carrying permit, and while your at it, check out the crime rates in an area that allows carrying permits to those who dont, i think anyone would be interested in their findings.  GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE!


----------



## The Monkey Man (Jul 31, 2009)

maniclion said:


> What I want to know is what kind of paranoid mind calls the cops because they found a receipt for a gun?



Probably the same lemming mentality, that realizes its some FEDEX-KINKO corporate policy not to ship firearms..

Again, corporations #cking-over americans.


----------



## maniclion (Jul 31, 2009)

The Monkey Man said:


> Probably the same lemming mentality, that realizes its some FEDEX-KINKO corporate policy not to ship firearms..
> 
> Again, corporations #cking-over americans.


But finding it at a Staples Copy Center?  When did it become a crime to make a copy of your own receipts?
What would make a person think they should give the receipt for a gun to the cops, since when did criminals start handing out receipts with illegal firearms purchases?


----------



## The Monkey Man (Jul 31, 2009)

maniclion said:


> But finding it at a Staples Copy Center? When did it become a crime to make a copy of your own receipts?
> What would make a person think they should give the receipt for a gun to the cops, since when did criminals start handing out receipts with illegal firearms purchases?


 
Like I said...
Some mother-mary nobody who works at staples,
thinking they can be a hero and get their name in the
paper for stopping an international weapons or terrorist ring. -


----------



## KentDog (Aug 2, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> Gun and ammo sales have exploded since Obama has been in office and it shows no signs of slowing down. Sales of AR15s and AKs took a huge jump up before the last AWBs, etc. These morons never learn...


A gun store near me has a framed picture of Obama at the front counter with the moniker "Employee of the Month" under it .

It's been near impossible for me to find 9mm ammo since October 08. I finally got 600 rounds this morning. I was tempted to clean out them out, but decided to leave 300 rounds to share with another lucky gunowner.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 2, 2009)

KentDog said:


> A gun store near me has a framed picture of Obama at the front counter with the moniker "Employee of the Month" under it .
> 
> It's been near impossible for me to find 9mm ammo since October 08. I finally got 600 rounds this morning. I was tempted to clean out them out, but decided to leave 300 rounds to share with another lucky gunowner.



I have seen that Obama pic on the 'net. It's both funny, and 100% true.


----------



## Will Brink (Aug 7, 2009)

For those who liked to be "armed" with the facts, Dr. Kleck, one the most respected researcher on the topic of defensive gun use, gives a good interview this month here:

Florida State University : Research in Review

To those who may claims he's biased, etc:

"I'm a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, Amnesty International USA, and I'm a lifelong Democrat," he says, pausing briefly in this recitation. "I'm not now and have never been a member of the National Rifle Association, Handgun Control, Inc., and I've never received a penny in funding for research from any such organization."

To his creds:

"I'm boringly scholarly, having studied this issue for nearly 30 years." The result of this research is impressive by any standards: three books, 50 published articles in journals and in newspapers such as The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal, 10 book chapters, and 40 presented papers. Kleck has published more articles on the defensive use of guns than anyone else on the planet.

If you have not read his books or papers, this interview sums up nicely his findings of his research and his opinions, etc.


----------



## Will Brink (Sep 2, 2009)

This should get your gun owning blood pumping. The shooting stages from the CT SWAT Challenge:






YouTube Video


----------



## bio-chem (Sep 2, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> This should get your gun owning blood pumping. The shooting stages from the CT SWAT Challenge:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



loved it


----------



## Will Brink (Sep 21, 2009)

Took a one day combative Pistol Fundamentals course with Mike "Doc" Hewett, who owns Rsk Tker Consulting

This easily could have been a 2-3 day course, but Doc did a great job of covering a lot of ground and making it a good learning experience for shooters at all levels. Doc comes via trainer for the Federal Air Marshals with additional mil background. See site above if interested.

I would not hesitate to take additional courses with Doc,  so if he ever comes your way, or you are looking to bring in a solid instructor for a course, I don't think anyone will be disappointed. 







Yours Truly at course with instructor "Doc"


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## Will Brink (Oct 18, 2009)

For you LEO  members, if any of you read Tactical Response Magazine, I have an article in the current issue, which is Sept-Oct. Article focuses on practical applied stress training directed at tactical LE. I have actually not gotten a copy myself to see how it looks, but I am getting email from buds who have, and hopefully the publisher will send me a comp copy. If not, I will track a copy down one way or another...

Anyway, feel free to comment, give me feedback, etc if you get a chance to read it.


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## suprfast (Oct 18, 2009)

I find it hysterical how ever gun shop owner is finding a way to point fun to Obama, like he is going to take everyone's guns, or raise the price of ammo so high that no one can afford ammo.  

I have come up with a pretty basic economic theory with those at fault for this action, SUPPLY AND DEMAND.


Before the election gun sales were down.  Leading up to the end of the election and right after the election gun sales and ammo are climbing through the roof because everyone is worried what a crazy democrat will do.  
"my guns, i dont want to lose them, let me stock up"
Now we have gun and ammo companies still selling the same amount they have been based off of last years sales, and not being able to keep up with demand.  What is the next thing they can do to combat demand, RAISE THE PRICE OF COURSE.  Now the box of ammo just went up $5.00/box.  
"OH NO, Obama just raised the prices let's buy more ammo before it goes up to $10.00/box"
The ammo company still can not keep up with current demands even after raising price.  They are forced to once again raise prices, this time to +15.00/box.
"This is out of hand, but its my 2nd amendment right, so i have to buy everything i can get my hands on"
"DAMN YOU OBAMA".  
And the cycle continues until we reach the point we are at now.  

Now whether the ammo companies are raising prices because they are short on ammo or withholding it to allow prices to increase is still a reaction to the demand CONSUMERS make.  Who would have thought the ammo companies were out to make a buck.  Think about how much more money they have made selling less ammo this last year, then in the years past selling more ammo at lower prices.  Wal-mart vs Bentley for analogy sake.

Now who should be blamed for the price inflation of ammo, Gun owners. 

Being a fellow gun owner i do think its difficult for me to enjoy another hobby i have.  Shooting ranges are expensive, ammo is expensive, and my money is not going to something so inflated.  I now reload at a fraction of the cost.  

This is just one of my theories for price of inflation of gun ammo.  Take it for what you want.

I also find that obama picture to be quite funny.  Its all in the context one would want to view it as(if gun shop owner want to get real technical, he is stimulating the economy).  A similar notion happened to Steve Prefontaine, a middle distance runner for the united states in 70's.  A competitor wore a T-shirt that read STOP PRE.  When someone else wore the shirt they are saying, "im going to stop pre".  When prefontaine won the race and put on the shirt, its meaning changed to, "Just try to stop pre"


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## bio-chem (Oct 18, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> For you LEO  members, if any of you read Tactical Response Magazine, I have an article in the current issue, which is Sept-Oct. Article focuses on practical applied stress training directed at tactical LE. I have actually not gotten a copy myself to see how it looks, but I am getting email from buds who have, and hopefully the publisher will send me a comp copy. If not, I will track a copy down one way or another...
> 
> Anyway, feel free to comment, give me feedback, etc if you get a chance to read it.



this is something I'm going to have to go check out now. thanks for the heads up


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## Will Brink (Oct 18, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> this is something I'm going to have to go check out now. thanks for the heads up



Good deal.


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## ZECH (Oct 19, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> For you LEO  members, if any of you read Tactical Response Magazine, I have an article in the current issue, which is Sept-Oct. Article focuses on practical applied stress training directed at tactical LE. I have actually not gotten a copy myself to see how it looks, but I am getting email from buds who have, and hopefully the publisher will send me a comp copy. If not, I will track a copy down one way or another...
> 
> Anyway, feel free to comment, give me feedback, etc if you get a chance to read it.



Subscribed


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## bio-chem (Oct 25, 2009)

well I've made my mind up. Springfield Armory Loaded 1911. I will be purchasing it tomorrow. Im pretty damn excited right now thinking about it.

thanks guys for all the suggestions and help over the last couple months in discussing the 1911.  This will be my early christmas gift to myself.


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## ALBOB (Oct 26, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> well I've made my mind up. Springfield Armory Loaded 1911. I will be purchasing it tomorrow. Im pretty damn excited right now thinking about it.
> 
> thanks guys for all the suggestions and help over the last couple months in discussing the 1911.  This will be my early christmas gift to myself.



VERY wise choice.  IMHO you can't get a better 1911 for the money.


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## Will Brink (Oct 26, 2009)

dg806 said:


> Subscribed



Cool. It's free to LEO as far as I know. Getting good feedback on the article so far.


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## Will Brink (Oct 26, 2009)

ALBOB said:


> VERY wise choice.  IMHO you can't get a better 1911 for the money.



X2. Best 1911 for the $$$ going, and I don't even own one!


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## bio-chem (Oct 26, 2009)

Well brought her home and haven't put her down yet. I'll take some pictures and post em up when i get a chance. I'm excited. I really am looking forward to getting out to the range and putting some rounds through it.


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## suprfast (Oct 26, 2009)

Will the Creatine man.  I didnt put 2+2 together until right now.

Got a question since you deal with swat etc...
Do you do any reloading?  Im trying to find what weight FMJ for my Springfield XD.45ACP.  Looking for accuracy over anything else.  Why does one choose a 180g or 200g or 230g?

Thanks Will.
kris


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## bio-chem (Oct 26, 2009)

suprfast said:


> Will the Creatine man.  I didnt put 2+2 together until right now.
> 
> Got a question since you deal with swat etc...
> Do you do any reloading?  Im trying to find what weight FMJ for my Springfield XD.45ACP.  Looking for accuracy over anything else.  Why does one choose a 180g or 200g or 230g?
> ...



it was covered earlier in this thread. Will doesn't reload. You are better off asking Albob


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## bio-chem (Oct 26, 2009)

Will, you've done a good job posting videos. any chance we could get some pics of your custom built 1911's? that might liven up the discussion here in this thread.


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## bio-chem (Oct 26, 2009)

guys, where is a good place to get some 8 rd magazines of good quality? My 1911 came with a couple of 7 rounders


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## suprfast (Oct 26, 2009)

Thanks BIO-CHEM.  I could have sworn that was brought up big i didnt dig through the whole thing.  Back to the drawing board.


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## Will Brink (Oct 27, 2009)

suprfast said:


> Will the Creatine man.  I didnt put 2+2 together until right now.
> 
> Got a question since you deal with swat etc...
> Do you do any reloading?  Im trying to find what weight FMJ for my Springfield XD.45ACP.  Looking for accuracy over anything else.  Why does one choose a 180g or 200g or 230g?
> ...



Kris, I don't do any reloading, so I can't help you there. Been lazy on that one. That's something I need to do some day, but right now,  I would rather spend my time and $$$ at courses, IDPA matches, etc, then in the basement loading ammo.


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## Will Brink (Oct 27, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> Will, you've done a good job posting videos. any chance we could get some pics of your custom built 1911's? that might liven up the discussion here in this thread.



Thought I had posted those no? 

This is my CCW gun. It's a custom built Caspian Commander length on a Titanium frame. 






This is am S&W made at their performance center custom shop. This is my main gun for courses, IDPA, the range, etc. The S&W is a great gun and built like a tank. I got the employee discount, so that made he happy as they aint cheap







This is a full sized 1911 built on a Colt series 70 frame and slide. It started out as a very plane jane 1991A1. It's basically my back up gun to the S&W in case it goes down in the middle of a course, or is at the shop, etc. It's an excellent shooter, but I prefer the S&W:






That's my current 1911 collection.


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## Will Brink (Oct 27, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> guys, where is a good place to get some 8 rd magazines of good quality? My 1911 came with a couple of 7 rounders



Best brand is generally Wilson Elite or Chip McCormic Power mags. However, I would shoot the gun with the 7rnd mags it came with until you are satisfied the gun is reliable and broken in before going to 8rnd. 1911s are very sensitive to their mags are were designed around 7rnd mags. 1911 purists will only carry 7rnd mags due to reliability issues some guns suffer from 8rnf mags. My Commander above will shoot 7rnd mags all day, but it does not love 8rnd mags. I usually buy mags from places like Brownells or MidwayUSA


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## suprfast (Oct 27, 2009)

I am liking those guns will
kris


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## Will Brink (Oct 27, 2009)

suprfast said:


> I am liking those guns will
> kris



I have been shooting/training long enough now that I know exactly what  I want in/from a 1911 and can benefit from what a high end 1911 can do. I started with a used basic S&W for $400 years ago to make sure I would like the 1911 platform, and shot that gun for years. Once I know I am into a thing, I will spend the money I need to to get the best I can.


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## ZECH (Oct 27, 2009)

suprfast said:


> Why does one choose a 180g or 200g or 230g?
> 
> 
> kris



Depends on what you want the round for. Target shooting? Protection? Speed? Penetration?


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## suprfast (Oct 27, 2009)

I was told to practice the same round that you plan to have loaded in the event someone breaks into the house.  
Accuracy for the shooting range is most important.
kris


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## bio-chem (Oct 27, 2009)

suprfast said:


> I was told to practice the same round that you plan to have loaded in the event someone breaks into the house.
> Accuracy for the shooting range is most important.
> kris



that doesn't seem economical to me to always be shooting your home defense round while getting range time. I always shoot a magazine or two of home defense at the end of my range time mostly so I feel comfortable with it and the gun shooting it, but the first few hundred rounds of the day are always plinkers.


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## suprfast (Oct 27, 2009)

True.  Up until now i had not decided to reload.  I have reload way back when with my dad's .357 but im looking at keeping costs down and accuracy up.  I plan to do FMJ for the range shooting and i guess i can dial in some JHP for the home.  I do not want bullets going through walls and potentially hitting one of the kids in a wost case scenario
Kris


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## maniclion (Oct 27, 2009)

I miss shooting guns, I used to shoot at least 4 times a week back in Texas, but then I had acres of open pastures and woods, plus my dad's gun collection.  There's this embankment by the main pond we used to set up targets and shoot, I bet in the future some one is going to strike it rich digging the lead out of that bastard.....


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## bio-chem (Oct 27, 2009)

Albob had a post earlier in this thread that kind of struck a cord with me. home defense rounds should be off the shelf defense rounds or else an attorney will try and paint you as some sort of crazy gun nut out to kill people when you reload your own defense rounds. He explained it better than i just did though


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## bio-chem (Oct 27, 2009)

maniclion said:


> I miss shooting guns, I used to shoot at least 4 times a week back in Texas, but then I had acres of open pastures and woods, plus my dad's gun collection.  There's this embankment by the main pond we used to set up targets and shoot, I bet in the future some one is going to strike it rich digging the lead out of that bastard.....



not to late to go back to your roots.......


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## ALBOB (Oct 27, 2009)

suprfast said:


> I was told to practice the same round that you plan to have loaded in the event someone breaks into the house.
> Accuracy for the shooting range is most important.
> kris



The THEORY behind that statement is very true but, don't take it literally.  As was discussed earlier, keep your gun stoked with whatever your local cops keep in their duty guns.  This helps keep you safe from the predators both outside and INSIDE the courtroom.

Now, as for your practice ammo being the same as your "duty" ammo.  Again, completely valid theory.  But what it really means is the same weight bullet loaded to the same velocity.  That way your gun will recoil in training the exact same way it's going to recoil in a real self-defense situation.  You learn to manage that recoil properly and keep decent groups in training, you should be able to do the same in real life.

That means you decide on your self defense ammo first.  Let's say it's gonna be Federal 230 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP) which is rated at slightly faster than 900 feet per second (fps).  There you go.  When you start reloading you use 230 grain bullets loaded to 900 fps.  But don't get hung up on using only JHPs in your reloads.  Pure lead is fine since the only things you're worried about are bullet weight and velocity.  And for practice, lead is a Hell of a lot cheaper.


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## suprfast (Oct 27, 2009)

I was thinking of store bought after i typed that.  A lot of work to do a few rounds.  Thanks again BIO
kris


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## suprfast (Oct 27, 2009)

ALBOB said:


> The THEORY behind that statement is very true but, don't take it literally.  As was discussed earlier, keep your gun stoked with whatever your local cops keep in their duty guns.  This helps keep you safe from the predators both outside and INSIDE the courtroom.
> 
> Now, as for your practice ammo being the same as your "duty" ammo.  Again, completely valid theory.  But what it really means is the same weight bullet loaded to the same velocity.  That way your gun will recoil in training the exact same way it's going to recoil in a real self-defense situation.  You learn to manage that recoil properly and keep decent groups in training, you should be able to do the same in real life.
> 
> That means you decide on your self defense ammo first.  Let's say it's gonna be Federal 230 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP) which is rated at slightly faster than 900 feet per second (fps).  There you go.  When you start reloading you use 230 grain bullets loaded to 900 fps.  But don't get hung up on using only JHPs in your reloads.  Pure lead is fine since the only things you're worried about are bullet weight and velocity.  And for practice, lead is a Hell of a lot cheaper.



It is cheaper, but i dont have any outdoor ranges.  The thought of atomizing lead in closed areas for long periods of time doesnt impress me.


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## bio-chem (Oct 27, 2009)

ALBOB said:


> The THEORY behind that statement is very true but, don't take it literally.  As was discussed earlier, keep your gun stoked with whatever your local cops keep in their duty guns.  This helps keep you safe from the predators both outside and INSIDE the courtroom.
> 
> Now, as for your practice ammo being the same as your "duty" ammo.  Again, completely valid theory.  But what it really means is the same weight bullet loaded to the same velocity.  That way your gun will recoil in training the exact same way it's going to recoil in a real self-defense situation.  You learn to manage that recoil properly and keep decent groups in training, you should be able to do the same in real life.
> 
> That means you decide on your self defense ammo first.  Let's say it's gonna be Federal 230 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP) which is rated at slightly faster than 900 feet per second (fps).  There you go.  When you start reloading you use 230 grain bullets loaded to 900 fps.  But don't get hung up on using only JHPs in your reloads.  Pure lead is fine since the only things you're worried about are bullet weight and velocity.  And for practice, lead is a Hell of a lot cheaper.



excellent post


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## Will Brink (Oct 27, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> excellent post



The general recommendation is to run 300-500rnds of the ammo you intend to keep in the gun for CCW/SD, and make sure the gun is reliable with that specific ammo, and the rest is usually budget ammo. That's how most shooters do it. Even if I was into reloading, personal defense ammo would always come from the big ammo manufacturers for reasons pretty well outlined already. Finding out what your local PD carries exactly and using that is not a bad idea, and a common thing among shooters.


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## maniclion (Oct 27, 2009)

And don't try to modify them by making dumdums or something silly like that.....


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## bio-chem (Oct 29, 2009)

So I took the thing apart and cleaned it in preparation for hitting the range (shot like a Gem, best shooting gun out of the box I own) Things have changed a bit with 1911's since I was a kid. At least from my fathers Colt 20 years ago. It's going to be fun to learn the nuances of the 1911.


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## Will Brink (Oct 29, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> So I took the thing apart and cleaned it in preparation for hitting the range (shot like a Gem, best shooting gun out of the box I own) Things have changed a bit with 1911's since I was a kid. At least from my fathers Colt 20 years ago. It's going to be fun to learn the nuances of the 1911.



Best thing you could do for yourself is take a course. That's the best $$$ you will ever spend. Most people never learn the nuances of the 1911.


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## bio-chem (Nov 7, 2009)

another question for the reloaders here. i went back to my parents place in washington and raided all of the reloading equipment to get going. i even took all my dad's powder. here is the thing. he hasn't reloaded consistently over the last 10 years or so and the powder and primers are probably 10 years old now. You guys think this stuff is still good? Im thinking of reloading a batch of old powder/primers and reloading a batch with new as well to see if their is any difference. what are your thoughts?


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## maniclion (Nov 7, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> another question for the reloaders here. i went back to my parents place in washington and raided all of the reloading equipment to get going. i even took all my dad's powder. here is the thing. he hasn't reloaded consistently over the last 10 years or so and the powder and primers are probably 10 years old now. You guys think this stuff is still good? Im thinking of reloading a batch of old powder/primers and reloading a batch with new as well to see if their is any difference. what are your thoughts?


Depends on how it was stored, sealed, low humidity, etc...  Do a flash test on the powder, just light a pinch....  My step-dad had ancient powder in his gun cabinet, looked like it was from the 1940's and my brother and I made some small bombs to blow up some old toys and it still worked.....


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## Little Wing (Nov 8, 2009)

my son isn't old enough to own a gun yet by my standards, he's 12, but he's definitely interested and enjoys books like this. 




Tesla took a gun safety course and Ty will too before we even consider purchasing one. Ty has been allowed to have hunting knives, Swiss army and what i consider novelty knives (2) at this point and he's very responsible with them. As a divorced mom my protective instinct says no gun for a very long time. 

I'm interested in hearing what some dads have to say about what age they think a boy is ready to own serious knives and firearms. 

I'm 48 we were allowed to own guns at about 13 but to me that seems far too young. I really like the knives too and think target practicing would be a fun thing to do together later on like I did with my dad. 

Opinions? Especially about age appropriateness.


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## bio-chem (Nov 8, 2009)

Little Wing said:


> my son isn't old enough to own a gun yet by my standards, he's 12, but he's definitely interested and enjoys books like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



obviously I'm not a dad yet, so this may not work for you, but i would say guns are less an age thing and more a maturity thing. some kids can handle it some kids cant. you know your kid better than anyone, or should. at 14 i had a .308 rifle of my own. my parents knew anytime i left the house with it, and they knew exactly where i was going and when i would be back. I was shooting guns from an age much less than 12, but never without my parents accompanying me


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## Little Wing (Nov 8, 2009)

yea, he'd gravitating toward the heavy machine guns like the Browning Model 1917. so i'm thinking never.  

he gets up at night when he can't sleep n reads history books.


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## danzik17 (Nov 8, 2009)

Little Wing said:


> yea, he'd gravitating toward the heavy machine guns like the Browning Model 1917. so i'm thinking never.
> 
> he gets up at night when he can't sleep n reads history books.



Terminator style miniguns are perfectly legitimate for self defense


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## Little Wing (Nov 8, 2009)

where we live there's not much need for self defense but i think marksmanship is a legitimate sport.


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## bio-chem (Nov 8, 2009)

Little Wing said:


> where we live there's not much need for self defense but i think marksmanship is a legitimate sport.



Not much need for self-defense? Where is millennial utopia you speek of?


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## Little Wing (Nov 8, 2009)

a fairly small town in maine.


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## kswenso (Nov 8, 2009)

how do i deal with this problem?I injected 1cc of 100 mg of winstrol 2 days ago everything was clean and new. about 9 hours later where i gave my self the injection above the right knee it started hurting bad only when i walked and i had a lot of swelling. its been almost 4 days my leg dont hurt to walk but its still swollen bad and it feels hot about 14 hours after the injection i had flew like symtoms. im taking 500mg cipro just incase there is an infection. am i doing the wright thing will i be fine how long will i stay swollen


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## Little Wing (Nov 8, 2009)

kswenso said:


> how do i deal with this problem?I injected 1cc of 100 mg of winstrol 2 days ago everything was clean and new. about 9 hours later where i gave my self the injection above the right knee it started hurting bad only when i walked and i had a lot of swelling. its been almost 4 days my leg dont hurt to walk but its still swollen bad and it feels hot about 14 hours after the injection i had flew like symtoms. im taking 500mg cipro just incase there is an infection. am i doing the wright thing will i be fine how long will i stay swollen




go to a dr and tell him the truth.


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## bio-chem (Nov 8, 2009)

kswenso said:


> how do i deal with this problem?I injected 1cc of 100 mg of winstrol 2 days ago everything was clean and new. about 9 hours later where i gave my self the injection above the right knee it started hurting bad only when i walked and i had a lot of swelling. its been almost 4 days my leg dont hurt to walk but its still swollen bad and it feels hot about 14 hours after the injection i had flew like symtoms. im taking 500mg cipro just incase there is an infection. am i doing the wright thing will i be fine how long will i stay swollen



you could start by making your own thread in the appropriate place and get the hell out of this one


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## ALBOB (Nov 8, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> another question for the reloaders here. i went back to my parents place in washington and raided all of the reloading equipment to get going. i even took all my dad's powder. here is the thing. he hasn't reloaded consistently over the last 10 years or so and the powder and primers are probably 10 years old now. You guys think this stuff is still good? Im thinking of reloading a batch of old powder/primers and reloading a batch with new as well to see if their is any difference. what are your thoughts?



Absolutely do NOT use any of that old stuff.  You have no idea how it's been stored and therefore, how it will react in the chamber of your gun.  You could use a perfectly reasonable amount of powder but, end up blowing your gun and possibly yourself sky high.  Primers and powder have been difficult to come by and the prices have definitely gone up since whatshisname moved into the Oval office but, your eyes, hands and fingers are worth the extra $$$. 

What to do with the old stuff?  Take it on a camping trip and have a really cool bon-fire.


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## Burner02 (Nov 8, 2009)

Little Wing said:


> yea, he'd gravitating toward the heavy machine guns like the Browning Model 1917. so i'm thinking never.
> 
> he gets up at night when he can't sleep n reads history books.


at age 13, all boys tend to gravitate towards Ferraris and Lamborghinis (sp) too...
as mentioned, if you think he's mature enough, you can start w/ a Daisy BB gun for B-day or Christmas and back yard targets...then move up to a pellet gun and so forth. 
i like the idea of gun safety courses for children...shows them that they are not toys and not like TV...

...as far as history goes, do y'all ever go any place with historical value? Battle fields? Would something like that be fun for him? Stand in the same place that something significant happened?

being older...I can now appreciate being places that I've seen in movies or have read about in books.


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## bio-chem (Nov 8, 2009)

ALBOB said:


> Absolutely do NOT use any of that old stuff.  You have no idea how it's been stored and therefore, how it will react in the chamber of your gun.  You could use a perfectly reasonable amount of powder but, end up blowing your gun and possibly yourself sky high.  Primers and powder have been difficult to come by and the prices have definitely gone up since whatshisname moved into the Oval office but, your eyes, hands and fingers are worth the extra $$$.
> 
> What to do with the old stuff?  Take it on a camping trip and have a really cool bon-fire.



well in truth I know exactly how it has been stored. it's been stored in a room my father built in his garage for reloading. It's been kept at a constant temperature between 65-80 degrees F in the closed canisters the powder was sold in and humidity is not an issue because I grew up in southeastern washington, which is a desert. pretty much as good as conditions as one could ask for.

Im not opposed to purchasing new. money isn't the concern, just curious to the shelf life of powder and primers when kept properly.


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## Burner02 (Nov 9, 2009)

Little Wing said:


> where we live there's not much need for self defense but i think marksmanship is a legitimate sport.


...ya never know....


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## Little Wing (Nov 9, 2009)

Burner02 said:


> at age 13, all boys tend to gravitate towards Ferraris and Lamborghinis (sp) too...
> as mentioned, if you think he's mature enough, you can start w/ a Daisy BB gun for B-day or Christmas and back yard targets...then move up to a pellet gun and so forth.
> i like the idea of gun safety courses for children...shows them that they are not toys and not like TV...
> 
> ...




we all got bb guns when i was 10 and my youngest brother was 6. we were good with ours but the little asshole next door who was a year older than me shot me with his. what a fuckhead. i still remember how bad it hurt and i still pissed the little shit lied his way out of it. his name was robin, maybe enough punishment already. 

Maine Bureau of Parks and Lands:

there are a lot of cool places to go in Maine. now that he's getting old enough to appreciate the significance, we're going to plan some outings. 

i'm not sure if Aberdeen Proving grounds is still open to the public but I remember going there and seeing a huge weapons display and things like booby traps from Vietnam.... i want to go there again.


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## bio-chem (Nov 9, 2009)

Little Wing said:


> i'm not sure if Aberdeen Proving grounds is still open to the public but I remember going there and seeing a huge weapons display and things like booby traps from Vietnam.... i want to go there again.



this partially explains his interest in machine guns methinks.


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## ALBOB (Nov 9, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> well in truth I know exactly how it has been stored. it's been stored in a room my father built in his garage for reloading. It's been kept at a constant temperature between 65-80 degrees F in the closed canisters the powder was sold in and humidity is not an issue because I grew up in southeastern washington, which is a desert. pretty much as good as conditions as one could ask for.
> 
> Im not opposed to purchasing new. money isn't the concern, just curious to the shelf life of powder and primers *when kept properly*.




Those are the key words.  If you're absolutely sure (Sure enough to bet your eyes, fingers and/or hands on) it's been stored properly, there really is no shelf life on powder and primers.


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## bio-chem (Nov 9, 2009)

ALBOB said:


> Those are the key words.  If you're absolutely sure (Sure enough to bet your eyes, fingers and/or hands on) it's been stored properly, there really is no shelf life on powder and primers.



good to know. thanks for the experience and advice.


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## maniclion (Nov 9, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> good to know. thanks for the experience and advice.


I would google around and see if there are any tests to do before hand to make sure your stuff is still good.....


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## Little Wing (Nov 9, 2009)

how expensive would it be to just replace it? you can't replace "your eyes, fingers and/or hands".


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## bio-chem (Nov 9, 2009)

maniclion said:


> I would google around and see if there are any tests to do before hand to make sure your stuff is still good.....



this isn't the only place i've been asking around about.


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## bio-chem (Nov 22, 2009)

time for another range update, and a question. So I took the 1911 out for another range session this time with some handloaded ammunition. used 5.4g W231 under a 230g FMJ if your wondering. light load and a good one for re-learning to reload on.

Now for the question. have any of you guys seen this before? twice this happened to me today, once with a handload, and once with a factory round. on the last shot of a magazine the spent case would be partially loaded back into the magazine. Once far enough that you could actually drop the magazine from the gun with the spent casing still in it. The slide would be locked back and this is not a "stove pipe" at least not as far as I understand the term to be used. Has anyone seen this before? I didn't think till afterward to check if it happened in the same magazine. (they will each be marked in the future) just curious what the thoughts may be on this guys?


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## Will Brink (Nov 23, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> time for another range update, and a question. So I took the 1911 out for another range session this time with some handloaded ammunition. used 5.4g W231 under a 230g FMJ if your wondering. light load and a good one for re-learning to reload on.
> 
> Now for the question. have any of you guys seen this before? twice this happened to me today, once with a handload, and once with a factory round. on the last shot of a magazine the spent case would be partially loaded back into the magazine. Once far enough that you could actually drop the magazine from the gun with the spent casing still in it. The slide would be locked back and this is not a "stove pipe" at least not as far as I understand the term to be used. Has anyone seen this before? I didn't think till afterward to check if it happened in the same magazine. (they will each be marked in the future) just curious what the thoughts may be on this guys?



I would go by process of elimination and go back to the range and follow which mags, ammo, etc, it's doing it with. It's also a new gun with (I assume) minimal rnds through it, and 1911s usually need a break in period of 300-500 rnds for production guns, and up to 1000 for custom guns. Some will bipass the break in period and be 100% out of the box ( I have had a few of those too) but most need it. You might want to ditch the mags the gun came with and get either Chip McCormics or Wilson. Those two seem to be the most trusted and reliable brands. If the gun was older, I would tell you to change mag springs, recoil spring, etc, but I doubt that's the issue at this point. Get 3-500 rnds through it, then consider it an actual problem at that point. Some 1911s can be picky about ammo also, but the SA is usually not one of them, but it's possible.


----------



## bio-chem (Nov 23, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> I would go by process of elimination and go back to the range and follow which mags, ammo, etc, it's doing it with. It's also a new gun with (I assume) minimal rnds through it, and 1911s usually need a break in period of 300-500 rnds for production guns, and up to 1000 for custom guns. Some will bipass the break in period and be 100% out of the box ( I have had a few of those too) but most need it. You might want to ditch the mags the gun came with and get either Chip McCormics or Wilson. Those two seem to be the most trusted and reliable brands. If the gun was older, I would tell you to change mag springs, recoil spring, etc, but I doubt that's the issue at this point. Get 3-500 rnds through it, then consider it an actual problem at that point. Some 1911s can be picky about ammo also, but the SA is usually not one of them, but it's possible.



good advice. It was pretty much what I was thinking of doing moving forward. it's nice to have it confirmed by one more knowledgable.


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## Will Brink (Nov 23, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> good advice. It was pretty much what I was thinking of doing moving forward. it's nice to have it confirmed by one more knowledgable.




I would use good quality range ammo, such as Winchester White box, which is consistent good stuff, during the first 3-500 rnds. If you are using hand loads and various ammo, it's hard to know if it's a gun issue or an ammo issue when things go wrong. It's important to be consistent with mags and ammo with a new 1911 so you know where to look if problems arise. 

My high end S&W PC 1911 took at least 1000rnds to really smooth out and now it will shoot pretty much anything with pretty much any mag I have, but it's important to learn early (like children!) if you got a fussy one, so consistency and having as few variables as possible is important early. 

You should be tracking exactly how many rnds you have done in a note pad, which also removes the guess work. 

Guess work and guns don't mix well....


----------



## ZECH (Nov 24, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> I would go by process of elimination and go back to the range and follow which mags, ammo, etc, it's doing it with. It's also a new gun with (I assume) minimal rnds through it, and 1911s usually need a break in period of 300-500 rnds for production guns, and up to 1000 for custom guns. Some will bipass the break in period and be 100% out of the box ( I have had a few of those too) but most need it. You might want to ditch the mags the gun came with and get either Chip McCormics or Wilson. Those two seem to be the most trusted and reliable brands. If the gun was older, I would tell you to change mag springs, recoil spring, etc, but I doubt that's the issue at this point. Get 3-500 rnds through it, then consider it an actual problem at that point. Some 1911s can be picky about ammo also, but the SA is usually not one of them, but it's possible.



Not to discredit any of Will's advice but.......... I know on Glocks and I assume probably any SA, if you don't keep your wrist tight and have a "limp wrist" it will actually cause this exact thing. The only other thing I can think of is if the gun has a comp barrell. I have one on a 22c and if I shoot anything lighter than a 165g bullet, it will jam like this. It doesn't create enough back pressure with the gas escaping the comp barrell to seat it properly. But I don't think that is the problem in your case.


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## Will Brink (Nov 25, 2009)

dg806 said:


> Not to discredit any of Will's advice but.......... I know on Glocks and I assume probably any SA, if you don't keep your wrist tight and have a "limp wrist" it will actually cause this exact thing. The only other thing I can think of is if the gun has a comp barrell. I have one on a 22c and if I shoot anything lighter than a 165g bullet, it will jam like this. It doesn't create enough back pressure with the gas escaping the comp barrell to seat it properly. But I don't think that is the problem in your case.



Good point. I was thinking strictly of the gun vs the user. Limp wristing the gun would do that also. Good catch.


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## maniclion (Nov 25, 2009)

Ha ha, they said you're Limp Wristed.....you fairy.....


----------



## clemson357 (Nov 26, 2009)

Little Wing said:


> where we live there's not much need for self defense but i think marksmanship is a legitimate sport.




where i live there isn't much need for airbags or seatbelts.  I haven't needed them yet!


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## Will Brink (Nov 26, 2009)

maniclion said:


> Ha ha, they said you're Limp Wristed.....you fairy.....



Celine does not approve!


----------



## ZECH (Nov 26, 2009)

THat is one hot pic!


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## tucker01 (Nov 26, 2009)

Celine = gross.


----------



## Will Brink (Nov 26, 2009)

IainDaniel said:


> Celine = gross.



Don't be a hater!


----------



## bio-chem (Nov 26, 2009)

How the hell did my thread turn into this?



Please continue...



Manic, limp wristed is definitely not the problem


----------



## Little Wing (Nov 26, 2009)

clemson357 said:


> where i live there isn't much need for airbags or seatbelts.  I haven't needed them yet!



I have to temper my desire to own a gun or 15 with the knowledge that I am not 100% sure my 12 year old son would respect very important safety rules yet. He hasn't grasped the NEVER point an airsoft pellet gun at people one yet.


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## Little Wing (Dec 11, 2009)

Why Switzerland Has The Lowest Crime Rate In The World







YouTube Video











listen to what he says near the end.


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## bio-chem (Dec 12, 2009)

Little Wing said:


> Why Switzerland Has The Lowest Crime Rate In The World
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the entire reason for the second amendment right there. It would be nice if more american's understood that principle.


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## GFR (Dec 16, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> the entire reason for the second amendment right there. It would be nice if more american's understood that principle.


Switzerland  is a much better nation than America in most ways if not all. As for American and the constitution, well it has never been followed and most of the people are not educated enough or properly to even consider defending it.


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 17, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Switzerland  is a much better nation than America in most ways if not all. As for American and the constitution, well it has never been followed and most of the people are not educated enough or properly to even consider defending it.



despite  the fact that i disagree with everything you just said, any chance you would care to explain what you're point is?


----------



## GFR (Dec 17, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> despite  the fact that i disagree with everything you just said, any chance you would care to explain what you're point is?


Sure, Americans are not educated enough to know their rights so over the years they have lost many of them. The second amendment was a gift that Americans threw away a long time ago.


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## bio-chem (Dec 17, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Sure, Americans are not educated enough to know their rights so over the years they have lost many of them. The second amendment was a gift that Americans threw away a long time ago.


----------



## GFR (Dec 17, 2009)

That's about what I expected from you.


----------



## Arnold (Dec 17, 2009)




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## bio-chem (Dec 17, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> That's about what I expected from you.



if you want to start an "americans are stupid thread" feel free. This thread started out as a thread for discussing other forums about guns and has turned into a general question/answer thread about firearms. I have no intention of getting into a flaming war with you and having this moved to the anything goes forum. feel free to find yourself out of this thread.


----------



## GFR (Dec 17, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> if you want to start an "americans are stupid thread" feel free. This thread started out as a thread for discussing other forums about guns and has turned into a *general question/answer thread* about firearms. I have no intention of getting into a flaming war with you and having this moved to the anything goes forum. feel free to find yourself out of this thread.


Yes, a general question/answer thread....and I answered your question. If you don't like the answer don't start making faces with emotion gifs, just move on or answer in a mature manner. 

Please stop the personal attacks Bio. The fact that you negged me with full force the first day I joined on a John H thread illustrates the point.

Please stop.


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## bio-chem (Dec 18, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Yes, a general question/answer thread....and I answered your question. If you don't like the answer don't start making faces with emotion gifs, just move on or answer in a mature manner.
> 
> Please stop the personal attacks Bio. The fact that you negged me with full force the first day I joined on a John H thread illustrates the point.
> 
> Please stop.



resurrecting a dead thread over 2 years old deserves to be negged. like those points mean anything anyways. 

you didn't answer the question. if you really wanted a discussion which I did then you would have explained why you feel that way. you made a ridiculous blanket statement about americans that makes no sense. while giving nothing that supports what you said.

Now I'm sorry you got your panties out of whack for no reason, but unless you plan on having a actual discussion like this thread was intended for please leave. you're not welcome in this thread otherwise.


----------



## Little Wing (Dec 18, 2009)

Only 54 percent of eligible voters cast their ballots during the last four decades of presidential elections. Compare that embarrassing number to Italy's 90 percent, Germany's 80 percent, France and Canada's 76 percent, Britain's 75 percent and Japan's 71 percent. We rank 35th in voter turnout out of the world's prominent democracies.

if that ain't stupid what is?

we don't protect our rights like we should. that's not a flame war it's a fact. this is a country full of idiots. we don't strive for excellence we want paris hilton's shoes. i love my country, wouldn't want to be anywhere else but we need to put more into out education system and we need to be active and informed citizens hell bent on change for the better  not the fat, lazy sheep who don't vote.


----------



## tucker01 (Dec 18, 2009)

Not sure where those numbers are from... But our last election(2008), was our lowest voter turnout at 59.1%.

Our highest ever was 79.% in 1958.


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## DOMS (Dec 18, 2009)

78% of half of all people think 51% of countries are better than the US.


----------



## GFR (Dec 18, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> resurrecting a dead thread over 2 years old deserves to be negged. like those points mean anything anyways.


That's your choice, but I have no interest in negging people for such petty things. If I wanted that level of maturity I would post on BB.com.


----------



## GFR (Dec 18, 2009)

DOMS said:


> 78% of half of all people think 51% of countries are better than the US.


My brain just exploded.


----------



## DOMS (Dec 18, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> My brain just exploded.



That's happens to 69.23843849343% of people.


----------



## Little Wing (Dec 18, 2009)

IainDaniel said:


> Not sure where those numbers are from... But our last election(2008), was our lowest voter turnout at 59.1%.
> 
> Our highest ever was 79.% in 1958.



Pulmicort - FamilyEducation.com

i'm *ass*uming the numbers are a 4 decade average. if not wholley accurate it's still sadly believable.

i'm also assuming this other tidbit is true just because i like it so much... 

 someone told me he read that when you lose your temper your iq drops 30 points.


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 18, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> That's your choice, but I have no interest in negging people for such petty things. If I wanted that level of maturity I would post on BB.com.





Patrick Bateman said:


> Hi, you have received -18947 reputation points from Patrick Bateman.
> Reputation was given for this post.
> 
> Comment:
> ...




yup, you're a model of maturity. I negged you 1k points and you retaliated by negging me 18k. well done.


----------



## GFR (Dec 18, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> yup, you're a model of maturity. I negged you 1k points and you retaliated by negging me 18k. well done.


You launched a preemptive strike when you negged me for no reason. You hit me with 100% of what you could......I did the same, the only problem is I had much more than you at my disposal. You lost, Deal with it.

You reap what you sew.


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## bio-chem (Dec 18, 2009)

just because someone doesn't vote doesn't mean they are stupid. let's no get carried away here. As it pertains to the second amendment I feel that those who feel strongly either way do vote. thats why there is such heated debate going on about the second amendment right now. 

The second amendment as part of the bill of rights is for the purpose of protecting Americans from their government. Some people feel that we no longer need the second amendment to protect us from the government and that we will be safer from crime by disarming the populace. I tend to disagree with that line of reasoning, thats why I vote the way I do.


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## bio-chem (Dec 18, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> You launched a preemptive strike when you negged me for no reason. You hit me with 100% of what you could......I did the same, the only problem is I had much more than you at my disposal. You lost, Deal with it.
> 
> You reap what you sew.



lost? 

you think I give a damn about reputation points? i've been posting here for years. I have 5000 posts worth of reputation here. people either like me or they don't.  please go away now. you bore me.


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## bio-chem (Dec 18, 2009)

anyone here reload .308? i've got a couple questions for you


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## GFR (Dec 18, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> lost?
> 
> you think I give a damn about reputation points?


You clearly do because you keep bringing it up over and over again.

Yes you care, and you are now mad that like Japan you bombed Pearl harbor and did not see the A bombs coming. I only dropped one, don't force me to drop another. 

My words are truth.


----------



## DOMS (Dec 18, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> You clearly do because you keep bringing it up over and over again.
> 
> Yes you care, and you are now mad that like Japan you bombed Pearl harbor and did not see the A bombs coming. I only dropped one, don't force me to drop another.
> 
> My words are truth.



The rep system is there to, somewhat, guide people into being good posters.  So he hit you with 1000 points, even though he had more, to say that he didn't like a particular post.

In retaliation, you hit him with the maximum amount that you could.  Is that how this is supposed to work?  All or nothing?  What's the point to that?


----------



## GFR (Dec 18, 2009)

DOMS said:


> The rep system is there to, somewhat, guide people into being good posters.  So he hit you with 1000 points, even though he had more, to say that he didn't like a particular post.
> 
> In retaliation, you hit him with the maximum amount that you could.  Is that how this is supposed to work?  All or nothing?  What's the point to that?


He hit me with 100% of what he could......that is he hit me with full force. 

I checked his points before I hit back, and the fact that *he hit as hard as he could for absolutely no reason.* I found that to be in poor taste and very immature. 

I always vary the rep I give depending on the post. *As for negging I do not engage in that*, the only time I have was after bio negged me because of his hate and insecurity about a John H thread.


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## DOMS (Dec 18, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> He hit me with 100% of what he could......that is he hit me with full force.
> 
> I checked his points before I hit back, and the fact that *he hit as hard as he could for absolutely no reason.* I found that to be in poor taste and very immature.
> 
> I always vary the rep I give depending on the post. *As for negging I do not engage in that*, the only time I have was after bio negged me because of his hate and insecurity about a John H thread.



Fair enough.  I though he had over 2000 points and that he hit you for only 1000.

My mistake.


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## bio-chem (Dec 18, 2009)

seriously guys. enough about this in this thread. the topic is guns. outside of that lets let everything drop.


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## bio-chem (Dec 22, 2009)

ok, so thats a negative on the .308, how about .40 S&W, anybody reload for any of these calibers?


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## bio-chem (Jan 20, 2010)

some interesting gun news. guys you may want to read this one
Brady Campaign and NRA Agree, Give Obama “F” on Gun Issue | Bill Schneider | Travel & Outdoors | NewWest.Net


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## Will Brink (Jan 21, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> some interesting gun news. guys you may want to read this one
> Brady Campaign and NRA Agree, Give Obama “F” on Gun Issue | Bill Schneider | Travel & Outdoors | NewWest.Net



Just the Brady Bunch doing what they do best: whining while taking their "don't don't confuse us with the facts" approach to the issue. 

Nothing new here, other then the fact everyone seemingly to agree Obama falls short on most things...I'm not an Obama fan per se, but I would say he and his admin have their hands full at the moment with two wars, a crappy economy, health care reform, etc, etc

The Dems learned the hard way, going after peoples guns = getting your ass kicked out of office.

If all the above issues get "solved" in the coming few years - and we know they will not - it wouldn't surprise me if Obama et al put guns back on their agenda.


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## ALBOB (Jan 21, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> anyone here reload .308? i've got a couple questions for you



Shoot



uhhhhhh



Fire away



uhhhhh



What's your damn question?


----------



## FMJ (Jan 21, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> ok, so thats a negative on the .308, how about .40 S&W, anybody reload for any of these calibers?


 
I don't reload .308 but reload 9mm, 40 and 45. 
Pa folk looooove thier guns! 
Doesn't my member name say it all?

F - Full
M - Metal
J - Jacket



What do you need to know about those calibers?


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## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

actually guys I got my reloading questions taken care of. thanks though


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## DOMS (Jan 21, 2010)

WillBrink said:


> The Dems learned the hard way, going after peoples guns = getting your ass kicked out of office.
> 
> If all the above issues get "solved" in the coming few years - and we know they will not - it wouldn't surprise me if Obama et al put guns back on their agenda.



I do believe you right.  They'll get back to "gun control" eventually.

What I find absolutely hilarious it that when a dem stands around telling you how you don't need a gun, they have _armed_ security guards all around them.  

They're special enough to have guns, but we're not.


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## independent (Jan 21, 2010)

I am very pro-gun and own quite a few but can someone explain to me why registering a gun is such a big deal? We have to register our cars.


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## DOMS (Jan 21, 2010)

bigmoe65 said:


> I am very pro-gun and own quite a few but can someone explain to me why registering a gun is such a big deal? We have to register our cars.



First off, the right to drive is not guaranteed by the Constitution.

The reason that registration sucks is that anti-gun nuts can use it get around the constitution.  Once you're forced to register to get a gun they can use any sort of wild-ass criteria for getting the registration.

Registering isn't even the biggest problem.  The ultimate problem is that it's only a stepping stone.  The douchebag dems want to get rid of the right to own firearms.  That's the real problem.


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## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

DOMS said:


> First off, the right to drive is not guaranteed by the Constitution.
> 
> The reason that registration sucks is that anti-gun nuts can use it get around the constitution.  Once you're forced to register to get a gun they can use any sort of wild-ass criteria for getting the registration.
> 
> Registering isn't even the biggest problem.  The ultimate problem is that it's only a stepping stone.  The douchebag dems want to get rid of the right to own firearms.  That's the real problem.



i cannot agree more with this post if I tried. This is absolutely correct. think of what some states have done to get a CCW. they may have the right to a CCW but they make it so unbelievably hard that no one can get one. they could potentially do that with registration of a gun. DOMS you hit the nail right on the head


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## maniclion (Jan 21, 2010)

bigmoe65 said:


> I am very pro-gun and own quite a few but can someone explain to me why registering a gun is such a big deal? We have to register our cars.


Driving is a privilege, not a right...they stressed that a billion times in drivers ed.  Also there are exponentially more drivers than there are gun owners, plus the cars are using public roads so they must be kept track of and also it's a good way to keep money flowing.  I don't mind gun registration, I just wish there were some way to make sure people locked their guns away so that thugs who break in while they aren't home couldn't end up using them to give guns a bad rep.....


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## FMJ (Jan 21, 2010)

Maniclion you hit that one spot on too!! In allot of ways owing or carring is also a priviledge and being responsible with your weapons is just as important, if not moreso, than driving a car.
Registration is a step in the right direction for pro-guns. It will make the people opposing guns feel better about still allowing them. The problem is that legally purchased guns are the one's on the streets.. they've been stolen from the guy who leaves it in his nightstand instead of in a safe. 
Damn right Manic


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## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

FMJ said:


> Registration is a step in the right direction for pro-guns. It will make the people opposing guns feel better about still allowing them.



registration is not a step in the right direction. it is a step in the wrong direction. registration of firearms will not placate the anti-gun lobby. and thinking that placation is the way to go is the wrong line of reasoning. europe tried to placate hitler, how well did that work out? These guys are not going to stop at registration. Registration will lead to prohibitive laws for registration and will only serve to disarm the law abiding populace. the idea that the guns criminals are using are guns that have been illegally stolen and therefore registration will cut down on gun crime is very naive in my opinion.


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## min0 lee (Jan 21, 2010)

Can a person with a criminal record obtain a gun?
Do they preform a background check at all?


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## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

min0 lee said:


> Can a person with a criminal record obtain a gun?
> Do they preform a background check at all?



all gun purchases require a federal background check if purchased from a dealer.

waiting periods and other restrictions are placed on by a state by state basis. you will have to define criminal record. no felons are allowed to purchase firearms


----------



## min0 lee (Jan 21, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> all gun purchases require a federal background check if purchased from a dealer.
> 
> waiting periods and other restrictions are placed on by a state by state basis. you will have to define criminal record. no felons are allowed to purchase firearms


I really don't see what the big deal is about having to wait to get a background check or a registration.


----------



## maniclion (Jan 21, 2010)

FMJ said:


> Maniclion you hit that one spot on too!! In allot of ways owing or carring is also a priviledge and being responsible with your weapons is just as important, if not moreso, than driving a car.
> Registration is a step in the right direction for pro-guns. It will make the people opposing guns feel better about still allowing them. The problem is that legally purchased guns are the one's on the streets.. they've been stolen from the guy who leaves it in his nightstand instead of in a safe.
> Damn right Manic


In a way yes concealed carry is a privilege, but gun ownership is a constitutional right.  The only reason I like registration is because when an irresponsible gun owner gets their gun stolen they are more likely to report it, unlike an unregistered owner who might feel embarrassed about getting robbed and not report a gun stolen.  If that gun is used in a crime at least there is a record of it in the system and it can provide some useful info for the police.  But ultimately I would love to see a huge concerted effort by gun owners to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, lock the guns away in a safe when you aren't home.  I know there is still the black market buyers and sellers but at least a good portion of guns will be off the streets....


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

min0 lee said:


> I really don't see what the big deal is about having to wait to get a background check or a registration.



i don't have a problem with a background check. i support it. i've gone through several and will gladly submit each time in the future. at the time i purchase from a dealer that gun is also registered to me. again not an issue. problem is, what happens when they decide to tax you $ each year for each firearm registered to you? what happens when they put such stipulations on registration that now make it prohibitive to actually purchase a gun? This has been posted before.


----------



## min0 lee (Jan 21, 2010)

How much is the registration fee?
I myself am getting tired of all these taxes and fees...


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

maniclion said:


> In a way yes concealed carry is a privilege, but gun ownership is a constitutional right.  The only reason I like registration is because when an irresponsible gun owner gets their gun stolen they are more likely to report it, unlike an unregistered owner who might feel embarrassed about getting robbed and not report a gun stolen.  If that gun is used in a crime at least there is a record of it in the system and it can provide some useful info for the police.  But ultimately I would love to see a huge concerted effort by gun owners to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, lock the guns away in a safe when you aren't home.  I know there is still the black market buyers and sellers but at least a good portion of guns will be off the streets....



I really don't see gun owners as being a "careless" group when it comes to their guns. most legal gun owners are doing more than non-gun owners to keep crime down IMO


----------



## FMJ (Jan 21, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> the idea that the guns criminals are using are guns that have been illegally stolen and therefore registration will cut down on gun crime is very naive in my opinion.


 
I'm sorry, but I disagree. Every little annoyance these anti's impose on the public to make it harder and harder to get a gun do nothing to the people who deserve to have a gun.
They force background checks, they force registration, they force carring permits, the force rations on ammo and what does it do? Shit. Because in _most_ states, any law-biding adult can still go to any gun shop and buy a gun and ammo in 30 minutes or less.
And I never said registration would cut down gun crime. I simply said many of the guns on the streets were legally purchased and were registered. They simply ended on the streets because they were stolen.
If having to register a gun is the deciding factor in getting or not getting a gun, well then register it. Unless you have something to hide. 
All these things they impose are less for trying to take away our rights and more about finding another way to make money on preserving us our rights. Just my opinion.


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

min0 lee said:


> How much is the registration fee?
> I myself am getting tired of all these taxes and fees...



state by state bases on how guns are taxed, fees required for things like concealed carry and such. right now gun owners are not currently taxed for each gun registered to them, other than at the time of initial purchase. registration fees and taxes have been proposed in legislation, but as of yet have not yet been passed. We are lucky to have a strong gun lobby here in america at the moment.

Will, Albob feel free to correct/clarify any of my statements here. I'm sure you are much more knowledgeable in these issues than I am.


----------



## min0 lee (Jan 21, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> state by state bases on how guns are taxed, fees required for things like concealed carry and such. right now gun owners are not currently taxed for each gun registered to them, other than at the time of initial purchase. registration fees and taxes have been proposed in legislation, but as of yet have not yet been passed. We are lucky to have a strong gun lobby here in america at the moment.
> 
> Will, Albob feel free to correct/clarify any of my statements here. I'm sure you are much more knowledgeable in these issues than I am.


How much is it in your state then, ballpark figure.


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

FMJ said:


> I'm sorry, but I disagree. Every little annoyance these anti's impose on the public to make it harder and harder to get a gun do nothing to the people who deserve to have a gun.



The only people it makes it more difficult to purchase a gun are the law abiding citizens who deserve to have a gun. Criminals don't go to the gun stores to purchase a gun and therefore are not in any way effected by the laws that are passed limiting the purchase of guns.

I'm lucky by living in utah in that I can go in and walk out with a firearm in 30 minutes. the same cannot be said for those living in california, New Jersey, or Massachusetts to name a few.

By the way, it's discussions like these that are so important to be having. I respect that you have a different opinion and are willing to share it


----------



## maniclion (Jan 21, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> I really don't see gun owners as being a "careless" group when it comes to their guns. most legal gun owners are doing more than non-gun owners to keep crime down IMO



Every one I know keeps their guns in the closet, or in a glass case or leaves the pistol in the night stand.  Making it easy for criminals to grab the guns when they rob your home is careless.  I think if you are going to own guns you need to accept the responsibility of keeping them out of the hands of criminals.


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## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

min0 lee said:


> How much is it in your state then, ballpark figure.



I recently purchased an $800 dollar firearm and walked out paying close to $900 with taxes and fees. My Concealed carry cost a $50 dollar class and another $60 in fees to send it in.


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## min0 lee (Jan 21, 2010)

You have to pay this every year?


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## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

maniclion said:


> Every one I know keeps their guns in the closet, or in a glass case or leaves the pistol in the night stand.  Making it easy for criminals to grab the guns when they rob your home is careless.  I think if you are going to own guns you need to accept the responsibility of keeping them out of the hands of criminals.



doesn't that defeat the purpose of having a gun available to shoot the criminals when they break in to steal your stuff and harm you? what would have happened to the 11 year old kid who got his dick shot off, and his mother if the gun was locked and hidden away in a safe?


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## maniclion (Jan 21, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> The only people it makes it more difficult to purchase a gun are the law abiding citizens who deserve to have a gun. *Criminals don't go to the gun stores to purchase a gun and therefore are not in any way effected by the laws that are passed limiting the purchase of guns.*


Why is that, oh yeah because they'd have to have a background check and register the weapon.....your logic is solid, let anyone buy a gun unrestricted so that law abiding citizens and criminals can both purchase in the same places with ease.....


----------



## FMJ (Jan 21, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> The only people it makes it more difficult to purchase a gun are the law abiding citizens who deserve to have a gun.


 
But thats my point.. it's not difficult at all. It's just becoming more expensive. Which I'm really fine with. I mean, from our earlier example, my car registration goes up every year. It cost money to make Motor vehicles more convienient and I will pay it. I have to drive right?
Well, it costs allot to have a nationwide gun registration information too, as a gun owner, I will gladly pay because I'm the one who wants the guns. Seems fair to me. General taxpayers don't foot that bill, Gun owners do.



bio-chem said:


> By the way, it's discussions like these that are so important to be having. I respect that you have a different opinion and are willing to share it


 
Definitly! Same here!


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## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

min0 lee said:


> You have to pay this every year?



you do not have to take the class again, but the fees you do have to pay again. I think the concealed carry lasts 2 years before you have to reapply. I'm really ok with that though because continued back ground checks on people carrying makes sense. The truth is people who concealed carry are some of the most law abiding citizenry you will ever meet. The general populace doesn't go through the scrutiny of a concealed carry holder, and concealed carry holders don't break laws because they don't want their rights taken away.


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## maniclion (Jan 21, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> doesn't that defeat the purpose of having a gun available to shoot the criminals when they break in to steal your stuff and harm you? what would have happened to the 11 year old kid who got his dick shot off, and his mother if the gun was locked and hidden away in a safe?



Why would you need to lock your gun away from yourself?  I'm talking about when you leave the house, no ones home, the thief breaks in and suddenly has all your guns and you only have the one you're carrying...you just armed several crooks do you feel better about yourself, is that so you could increase your odds of testing out all that time you spent at the firing range?


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

FMJ said:


> But thats my point.. it's not difficult at all. It's just becoming more expensive. Which I'm really fine with. I mean, from our earlier example, my car registration goes up every year. It cost money to make Motor vehicles more convienient and I will pay it. I have to drive right?
> Well, it costs allot to have a nationwide gun registration information too, as a gun owner, I will gladly pay because I'm the one who wants the guns. Seems fair to me. General taxpayers don't foot that bill, Gun owners do.
> 
> 
> ...



but now we are saying only the wealthy should own guns? I'm currently very capable of paying the price for a gun and the fees that go with it. but what if I don't have the money for a registration fee? does that mean I don't deserve to protect myself?

Even if you don't own a car, and don't drive your tax money is still being spent on roads such so others can. the reason is it is still beneficial for you that the economy is stimulated. which good transportation does.

well, law abiding gun owners help keep crime down. which is beneficial to all.


----------



## FMJ (Jan 21, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> well, law abiding gun owners help keep crime down. which is beneficial to all.


 
Hey, We do! I promise that I ever see you getting held up, I will get off a round. 
And seriously, Wealthy? People spend more on cigarettes in a year than it costs for 10 gun owners to register their guns, which we should still point out, Registration is still currently a one time fee. At least it is for PA residence.


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## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

maniclion said:


> Why would you need to lock your gun away from yourself?  I'm talking about when you leave the house, no ones home, the thief breaks in and suddenly has all your guns and you only have the one you're carrying...you just armed several crooks do you feel better about yourself, is that so you could increase your odds of testing out all that time you spent at the firing range?



and this is where your argument goes off the rails. even thinking that the motivation of a gun owner is so that he can go vigilante and shoot up the bad guys is really ridiculous. it does no good to even insinuate this. I've already stated that lawful gun owners are some of the best citizenry we have and there are statistics aplenty back this up. The stereotype of the gun toting vigilante survivalist are funny, but unfounded.


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

FMJ said:


> Hey, We do! I promise that I ever see you getting held up, I will get off a round.
> And seriously, Wealthy? People spend more on cigarettes in a year than it costs for 10 gun owners to register their guns, which we should still point out, Registration is still *currently* a one time fee. At least it is for PA residence.



I'm just saying we should keep it that way.

and thanks for having my back!


----------



## FMJ (Jan 21, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> and this is where your argument goes off the rails. even thinking that the motivation of a gun owner is so that he can go vigilante and shoot up the bad guys is really ridiculous. it does no good to even insinuate this. I've already stated that lawful gun owners are some of the best citizenry we have and there are statistics aplenty back this up. The stereotype of the gun toting vigilante survivalist are funny, but unfounded.


 

Actually, I do love the sport of shooting, reloading the cases with just the right charge to dial in on my accuracy but I do enjoy the security of knowing I can put two in the chest of a guy who broke into my home. Sure, piss will be running down my leg the whole time, but MOST people have guns for home protection. It's got to be better than 75 percent of the owners verses those who actually carry on the streets.


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## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

FMJ said:


> Actually, I do love the sport of shooting, reloading the cases with just the right charge to dial in on my accuracy but I do enjoy the security of knowing I can put two in the chest of a guy who broke into my home. Sure, piss will be running down my leg the whole time, but MOST people have guns for home protection. It's got to be better than 75 percent of the owners verses those who actually carry on the streets.



but it doesn't sound like you hope that you will get a chance to do this? prepared is one thing, looking for it another. thats what he was insinuating


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## FMJ (Jan 21, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> but it doesn't sound like you hope that you will get a chance to do this? prepared is one thing, looking for it another. thats what he was insinuating


 
No. God forbid. Theres always that chance he hits me first.


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

FMJ said:


> No. God forbid. Theres always that chance he hits me first.



and thats my problem with the stereotype. CCW holders are not looking for a reason to pull out there guns and take life. its just not true. as a matter of fact i believe it is just the opposite. because of our healthy respect for firearms and understanding what they can do we are praying it doesn't happen


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## maniclion (Jan 21, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> but it doesn't sound like you hope that you will get a chance to do this? prepared is one thing, looking for it another. thats what he was insinuating



I insinuate nothing, my only direction in all of this is what's the point of owning a gun for protection yet failing to prevent more guns from falling into the hands of criminals by neglecting to lock away guns when you're not there to keep the grubby hands of the lawless off of them.....I think that should be where all the focus on "gun control" should be is getting lawful gun owners to take responsibility to prevent their weapons from falling into the wrong hands.....


----------



## ZECH (Jan 21, 2010)

maniclion said:


> But ultimately I would love to see a huge concerted effort by gun owners to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, lock the guns away in a safe when you aren't home.  I know there is still the black market buyers and sellers but at least a good portion of guns will be off the streets....



I agree........I have to make a effort to keep mine locked up because of kids. If a kid was to get mine and shoot themselves or someone else, I would be held accountable and fired and would never again be able to get a law enforcement job. That is not even counting criminal charges that could be brought up. It really isnt that hard an effort to keep guns safe. To me that is part of being a responsible gun owner.
To answer a previous question, why wait on a criminal check. Everything these days is instant.......no need to wait. Takes 5 minutes to check a background. Liberals try to impose days waiting as a way of keeping you from getting a gun. Totally not needed.
In my county a gun  permit is like 5 or 10 bucks.


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## FMJ (Jan 21, 2010)

My guns, ammo, primers, powers, everything is in the safe. I carry, but when I come home, the gun goes right to the safe. I have a 6 year old boy who wouldn't think twice of picking up my weapon, pointing at me or anyone else and pulling the trigger, because he doesn't realize the consequesnce. 
No matter how much I explain to him that they not toys, he loves them. He likes to watch me clean and field strip them and asks about every little thing. The kid cannot be trusted! lol
So into the safe they stay, even when I'm home. I have a nice Sentry model with a 6 digit pushbutton combo lock. I can open it in 10 seconds in total darkness. With safes like that available, there's never a reason for accidental discharges in the home.


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## ZECH (Jan 21, 2010)

I have a liberty but it has a dial on it. It would be nice if it had pushbutton luck on it.
My son and daughter have grown up around my guns and know better and I totally trust them. But why take a chance. I could never live with myself if something happened.


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## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2010)

maniclion said:


> Why is that, oh yeah because they'd have to have a background check and register the weapon.....your logic is solid, let anyone buy a gun unrestricted so that law abiding citizens and criminals can both purchase in the same places with ease.....



thats not what im saying at all. i've never said that letting anyone buy a gun unrestricted is what I want. I'm all for background checks. I've submitted to plenty myself. I'm against unnecessary and ineffective regulations and taxes that hinder a law abiding citizens ability to purchase a gun. 1 firearm per month does not in anyway keep guns away from criminals. waiting periods do not  effect crime.


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## Will Brink (Jan 22, 2010)

bigmoe65 said:


> I am very pro-gun and own quite a few but can someone explain to me why registering a gun is such a big deal? We have to register our cars.



Then you are not pro 2A, you just own guns, and don't understand the larger implications, and historical experiences, or the data, of such an idea. Cars, BTW, are not a Const Right. Cars don't get confiscated when governments decide an unarmed populace is the goal, etc. 

A gun owner ignorant of history, the Const, and the data, is only slightly better then anti gun types.


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## ZECH (Jan 22, 2010)

WillBrink said:


> Then you are not pro 2A, you just own guns, and don't understand the larger implications, and historical experiences, or the data, of such an idea. Cars, BTW, are not a Const Right. Cars don't get confiscated when governments decide an unarmed populace is the goal, etc.
> 
> A gun owner ignorant of history, the Const, and the data, is only slightly better then anti gun types.



Very true...good post!


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## ZECH (Feb 12, 2010)

my new toy.........maybe I can afford to shoot a little now.
It does not like sub sonic loads. It needs high velocity to create enough pressure to cycle correctly. Great little shooter though and accurate.


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## bio-chem (Feb 12, 2010)

dg806 said:


> my new toy.........maybe I can afford to shoot a little now.
> It does not like sub sonic loads. It needs high velocity to create enough pressure to cycle correctly. Great little shooter though and accurate.



I really like those little guns. nice purchase


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## FMJ (Feb 12, 2010)

dg806 said:


> my new toy.........maybe I can afford to shoot a little now.
> It does not like sub sonic loads. It needs high velocity to create enough pressure to cycle correctly. Great little shooter though and accurate.


 
Walther is an excellent firearm and for $20 you can shoot it all day. 22 is dirt cheap. Federal, I think, makes the best 22 ammo. I have the Buckmark II and it loves fed ammo. Never jams or stovepipes. 
The nice thing  about the walther is you can get the conversion barrels for them and fire 9mm through it. For another $200 it's like having two guns!
Nice pick up dg!


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## bio-chem (Feb 12, 2010)

I've got to admit im kind of impressed with their little PK 380 as well. thats a hell of a carry gun for a woman IMO


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## ZECH (Feb 12, 2010)

You can also get one of these to fit it.......
P22 Suppressor


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## FMJ (Feb 12, 2010)

dg806 said:


> You can also get one of these to fit it.......
> P22 Suppressor


 
That's the shit right there!


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## bio-chem (Mar 1, 2010)

Supreme Court to address limits of gun control - CNN.com

In case you haven't read this. Supreme Court case effecting 2nd amendment. chicago vs McDonald


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## brk_nemesis (Mar 1, 2010)

yup... gonna be a good one,.. we'll see what happens....


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## DOMS (Mar 2, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> Supreme Court to address limits of gun control - CNN.com
> 
> In case you haven't read this. Supreme Court case effecting 2nd amendment. chicago vs McDonald





> The court will ultimately decide two fundamental questions: *Do strict state and local gun control laws violate the constitutional "right to keep and bear arms"?* And can an individual's right to own a weapon extend beyond federal jurisdiction?



I'm not sure about the second question, because I don't know what they mean by "beyond federal jurisdiction.", but how is the first question even a question?  The Constitution doesn't say that we should be able to arm ourselves _if the local government feels like letting us_.  

I'll take this moment to once again point out that the politicians that tell us we don't need guns have armed guards.  What a bunch of hypocrites.


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## soxmuscle (Mar 2, 2010)

idsnews.com | Indiana Daily Student |

I'm sorry, but this is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

I understand the mindset that you want to be protected in a time of need, but if that gives people the ability to bring a loaded weapon into a busy bar while they're drinking, it's absolutely absurd.

What an insecure fuckin douchebag..


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## ZECH (Mar 2, 2010)

I don't see where DC and Chicago should be different. You still have private citizens wanting to protect themselves. And if the truth was known, there should not be ANY NEED to make more gun laws in Chicago. Most of those gang and drug dealers already have records, which already make it ILLEGAL for them to have guns. So even if you make new laws, making it where Otis Mcdonald can't defend himself, the gangs and drug dealers will still have them and nothing to fear. Come on panty waste liberals, wake up and see the real world and quit dreaming.


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## ZECH (Mar 2, 2010)

The solution to the problem is this.......Keep all repeat violent crime offenders in jail and quit returning them to the streets where they commit more crime. Sad but true.


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## tucker01 (Mar 2, 2010)

dg806 said:


> The solution to the problem is this.......Keep all repeat violent crime offenders in jail and quit returning them to the streets where they commit more crime. Sad but true.




No no.... they can be rehabilitated of course.  In a system where the jails are even more gang driven.  All about rehabilitation.


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## DOMS (Mar 2, 2010)

dg806 said:


> The solution to the problem is this.......Keep all repeat violent crime offenders in jail and quit returning them to the streets where they commit more crime. Sad but true.



I like the Chinese method: you kill them.


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## bio-chem (Mar 2, 2010)

soxmuscle said:


> idsnews.com | Indiana Daily Student |
> 
> I'm sorry, but this is absolutely fucking ridiculous.
> 
> ...



"Brill told officers he had a loaded Smith & Wesson .45-caliber automatic handgun"
 I wish people in the media would educate themselves a bit before they write articles. semi-automatic and automatic are different, and confusing the two is irresponsible.  


I have very little idea what happened in this instance, so I'm not going to make a judgement on who is in the right here, but I'll tell you this, if 5 guys come up to me and threaten me thats the exact situation I want a gun in.


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## maniclion (Mar 2, 2010)

So sick of that militia argument, why can't these people get it through their heads that back when it was written the militia was like Jury service, the government called for your service and you brought your own gun.  The National Guard is not militia, they get paid and are armed by the government.


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## soxmuscle (Mar 2, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> "Brill told officers he had a loaded Smith & Wesson .45-caliber automatic handgun"
> I wish people in the media would educate themselves a bit before they write articles. semi-automatic and automatic are different, and confusing the two is irresponsible.
> 
> 
> I have very little idea what happened in this instance, so I'm not going to make a judgement on who is in the right here, but I'll tell you this, if 5 guys come up to me and threaten me thats the exact situation I want a gun in.



He was being a creep, five guys came up to him to tell him to leave their girlfriend alone.  He continued to creep and eventually took out his loaded handgun and pistol whipped one of the guys that came to the aid of this girl who wanted no part of a guy who wouldn't leave her alone.

I can see the need for guns in a rare, self-defense situation but I doubt I'll ever own one because I'm secure with the size of my penis.


----------



## bio-chem (Mar 2, 2010)

soxmuscle said:


> He was being a creep, five guys came up to him to tell him to leave their girlfriend alone.  He continued to creep and eventually took out his loaded handgun and pistol whipped one of the guys that came to the aid of this girl who wanted no part of a guy who wouldn't leave her alone.
> 
> I can see the need for guns in a rare, self-defense situation but I doubt I'll ever own one because I'm secure with the size of my penis.



I didn't get that from the article. do you know something about this situation that wasn't in the article you posted?

It's good you won't own a firearm. A guy who doesn't understand the 2nd amendment doesn't deserve it's benefit.


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## maniclion (Mar 2, 2010)

_"Brill told officers he was afraid and pulled the gun for protection. He said he had been injured in fights in Bloomington before."_

Maybe this guy needs to stay out of Bloomington.  My experience tells me most people who get into "fights" are just as blame worthy as the people who they were fighting with.  If you are a hot head who gets into fights often you should probably stay out of bars where situations like this tend to arise....

It's guys like this that give gun owners a bad name....


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## bio-chem (Mar 2, 2010)

maniclion said:


> So sick of that militia argument, why can't these people get it through their heads that back when it was written the militia was like Jury service, the government called for your service and you brought your own gun.  The National Guard is not militia, they get paid and are armed by the government.





national guard created:1916
Bill of Rights:1791


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## ZECH (Mar 2, 2010)

IainDaniel said:


> No no.... they can be rehabilitated of course.  In a system where the jails are even more gang driven.  All about rehabilitation.



Not sure if you are serious or not, but it can happen, but very very rare.


----------



## tucker01 (Mar 2, 2010)

dg806 said:


> Not sure if you are serious or not, but it can happen, but very very rare.



I am being sarcastic.   No way these violent/sexual/repeat offenders should ever see the light of day again.

It is extremely rare.  The gang is stronger then the self, in many of these cases.


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## ALBOB (Mar 2, 2010)

soxmuscle said:


> I can see the need for guns in a rare, self-defense situation but I doubt I'll ever own one because I'm secure with the size of my penis.




Maybe so but, with statements like that your brain sure is undersized.


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## brk_nemesis (Mar 3, 2010)

soxmuscle said:


> He was being a creep, five guys came up to him to tell him to leave their girlfriend alone.  He continued to creep and eventually took out his loaded handgun and pistol whipped one of the guys that came to the aid of this girl who wanted no part of a guy who wouldn't leave her alone.
> 
> I can see the need for guns in a rare, self-defense situation but I doubt I'll ever own one because I'm secure with the size of my penis.


This is a quite rare situation. You will aways have that one "fuckup" that is just plain stupid, and a coward and draws attention to the point where it ruins it for everyone else. CCW holders must have clean records before getting the permit, and statistics show that crimes involving CCW permit holders are unbelievably low, and rather rare.

The point of any extension to restaurants and bars has nothing to do with some "insecure" guy walking into a bar at 4am and pointing a gun around.  It has to do with many restaurants and places falling into the category of a "bar" due to revenue, and also to extend the safety of permit holders. This guy apparently is an idiot, more than likely a coward, and thats all there is too it. Criminals don't need a ccw or a clean record to bring a gun into a bar, in fact many do it all the time,... they are criminals. There have been plenty of gang murders all around this area, MS-13 being one, at places near bars.

The former CCW requirements were you could not carry into a gov't building, park, "public gatherings" and places that made a majority revenue off of alcohol, which includes many restaurants, since alcohol is obviously a higher source of income than food. Its a grey area subject, just like the "public places" arguement. I am actually happy they extended the perimeters for carry. But that doesnt mean people should trade practicality or intelligence for safety or ego trips.

*But if a guy walks into a bar, carrying and loaded, CCW holder, at 4am in the morning, in an area were he "apparently" has gotten into fights before, thinking a CCW will give him free reign to shoot anyone,... hes a fukin dumbass, and is not a representation of all CCW permit holders or the laws that permit the places they are allowed to legally carry.*


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## maniclion (Mar 3, 2010)

brk_nemesis said:


> *But if a guy walks into a bar, carrying and loaded, CCW holder, at 4am in the morning, in an area were he "apparently" has gotten into fights before, thinking a CCW will give him free reign to shoot anyone,... hes a fukin dumbass, and is not a representation of all CCW permit holders or the laws that permit the places they are allowed to legally carry.*



My point exactly, and just because the guy had a permit to carry doesn't mean the same guy wouldn't show up with a handgun illegally or any other person for that matter....the fact is that at some point a person will have a gun illegally and hopefully there will be someone around with a legal permit who handles their monkey ass for the sake of the rest of the unarmed folk....


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## bio-chem (Mar 12, 2010)

Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence : State Gun Laws


the brady campaign has rated states based upon their gun laws. Utah got a 0. 
It's ironic that the states with the strictest gun laws have the most gun violence.  go figure. anyway, if you guys are interested check out the link.


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## FMJ (Mar 12, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence : State Gun Laws
> 
> 
> the brady campaign has rated states based upon their gun laws. Utah got a 0.
> It's ironic that the states with the strictest gun laws have the most gun violence.  go figure. anyway, if you guys are interested check out the link.


 
PA got 25. I was surprised it got that much! I'm moving to Wash. State in a few months and they got 17 so even better! LOL!


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## Will Brink (Mar 20, 2010)

If you want to try excellent  test of your basic skills with a handgun, try the F.A.S.T. (Fundamentals, Accuracy, & Speed Test) drill designed by ToddG at Pistol-Training.com.

The FAST test can be downloaded:

pistol-training.com » F.A.S.T. (Fundamentals, Accuracy, & Speed Test)

I can usually do it under 7 seconds, but still have not broken that 5 second mark.

You will need a shot timer, but anyone who is actually serious about being proficient with a handgun as a fighting/defensive tool, already owns one..

To show I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, I made a vid doing the FAST test today. I had faster runs, but my best cold time with all rnds on target was 6.85. Not gonna win any coin with that time! I'm rusty I must say, and felt rusty as hell on this first day of outdoor range time. It's amazing how fast the skills go...I'll try to get it under 6 seconds is the goal once I get my mojo back up. 






YouTube Video












I hope some of you try it and post your times!


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## ALBOB (Mar 20, 2010)

TODD Svigney?  I thought Svigney's name was Dave.  The only Todd I know is Todd Jerrett.  They get together and have a love child? 


By the way, nice shootin', Tex.  Seriously, the bad guys should be worried.


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## Will Brink (Mar 20, 2010)

ALBOB said:


> TODD Svigney?  I thought Svigney's name was Dave.  The only Todd I know is Todd Jerrett.  They get together and have a love child?
> 
> 
> By the way, nice shootin', Tex.  Seriously, the bad guys should be worried.



Crap, it is Dave. I'm an idiot. Print out FAST, and test yourself some time.


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## ZECH (Mar 20, 2010)

Will Brink said:


> If you want to try excellent  test of your basic skills with a handgun, try the F.A.S.T. (Fundamentals, Accuracy, & Speed Test) drill designed by ToddG at Pistol-Training.com.
> 
> The FAST test can be downloaded:
> 
> ...



Awesome! Gonna give that a try!


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## Will Brink (Mar 23, 2010)

A long read, and worth EVERY word. Forget what you think you know about gun fights, and learn from Jim here. It may save your life some day...

The "Center Mass" Myth and Ending a Gunfight

By Jim Higginbotham

Surviving a gunfight isn't what you think it is. Don???t let conventional wisdom get you killed.  A well place round to "center mass" in your attacker may not take him out of the fight. Lots of people stay in the fight after "center mass" hits, and some even win it.  If you expect to win your gunfight, you have to make sure that you have effectively ended the threat of your attacker.  One, two or even several well placed "center mass" shots may not do what you think it will, and learning to recognize this before you gunfight may save your life.

There is a self styled self defense ???expert??? under every rock, and perhaps two behind every bush, these days. If you have a pet theory on what might work on the street then you can probably find a champion for that idea who actually charges people to teach them that skill. But few of the experts out there have ever been in gunfights, and even fewer have studied real gunfights to see how things really work out when the bullets really fly for blood.

There are more misconceptions out there than I can cover in one article but the one that probably gets to me the most, even over all the caliber wars that rage interminably in the print and cyber media, is the nearly universal acceptance that shooting a miscreant ???center mass??? with ________(fill in your favorite make, model and caliber) shooting _________ (fill in your favorite ammunition) hyper speed truck killer is practically guaranteed to get the job done.

Having studied in this field from a number of decades, I have run into plenty of cases where bullets did not do what folks would have assumed. And I have now collected enough of these that I think that rather than being anomalies, they are actually closer to the norm. Center mass hits in a gunfight do not in most cases end the fight. Erroneous assumptions can get you killed!

There is a well known video in training circles in which a Highway Patrol officer shoots an armed subject 5 times ???center mass??? (this is not my assessment but the statement of his immediate supervisors which are interviewed on the full version of the hour long tape) with his 4??? .357 Magnum revolver firing hollow point ammunition. All 5 hits failed to do the job and the subject was able to fire one round which struck the officer in the armpit. That round wondered around in the chest cavity and found his heart. The officer unfortunately died at the scene and his attacker is alive today.

In a class I conduct under the title "Fire For Effect" I start out by showing a video of standoff in which a hostage taker is fired on by police with .223 rifles and .40 caliber handguns. Throughout the whole disturbing sequence, which lasts about 10 seconds, the bad guy is hit multiple times in the torso with both rifle and pistol rounds. You can see him place his non-firing hand to his chest, clearly a lung is hit. However he is able to shoot his hostage 3 times, not rapidly. The hostage, a trim female, is active throughout the scene but later died from her wounds. In this case both the attacker and the victim had ???center mass??? hits that had no immediate effect.

I have accumulated confirmed incidents in which people have been shot ???center mass??? up to 55 times with 9mm JHP ammunition (the subject was hit 106 times, but 55 of those hits were ruled by the coroner to be each lethal in and of themselves) before he went down. During training at the FBI Academy we were told of a case in which agents shot a bank robber 65 times with 9mm, .223 and 00 buckshot ??? he survived! These are not rare cases. The happen quite often.

If a gunfight ever comes your way, your attacker may fall to a hit to the liver and he may not. He may fall to two or three hits to the kidneys, intestines or spleen, but he may not. He will certainly be in bad health. He likely will not survive, but what he does for the next several seconds to a few minutes is not guaranteed because you hit him "center mass."

Heart and lung hits don't statistically fare much better. I have three students and three other acquaintances who were all shot in a lung at the outset of gunfights. The students came to me after their fights to learn how to keep from getting shot again. Last time I checked all of those people were still alive and the people who shot them are still dead. Every one of them was able to respond effectively after being shot ???center mass???, one might even say they were shot in the ???A-zone???. And they were shot with .38 Special (three of them), 9mm, .357 Magnum and 8mm Mauser, so it's not all about caliber. One of those was a Chicom 12.7 mm round! He lived next door to me for many years.

So, what???s a person to do? First off, realize that one shot, even a fairly well placed shot may not do the job so don???t set there and admire your handiwork or wait for it to take effect. But even two hits may not get the job done!

After years of trying to get a grasp on this I have come to look at the results of shooting a living breathing target ??? be it a human attacker or a game animal ??? as falling into 3 or 4 categories. They are :

   1. Instant Collapse ??? this takes place 1 to 2 seconds from the shot being fired
   2. Rapid Collapse ??? this can take from 3 to 15 seconds and is quite common.
   3. Marginal Effect ??? this can even be a lethal hit but it takes from 15 to 300 (yes 300!) or even more seconds.
   4. The 4th is simply unacceptable and is a total failure.

The last category we don???t like to discuss but happens too often . We saw it recently in Washington with a Center Mass hit from an officer???s pistol and the subject was still walking around the next day.

What is ???effective??? shooting? Sad to say, it is demanding. It is also, I think, variable depending on the conditions. For example, the robber armed with a scattergun who is standing 10 feet away must be stopped ???right now!??? If you do not bring about Instant Collapse someone may very well die???that someone may be you!

On the other hand, if there is a gang banger launching bullets in your general direction using un-aimed fire about 20 yards away then a hit that brings about Rapid Collapse might do the job.

I cannot imagine a Marginally Effective result being very desirable in any case, but it does buy you some time in some cases.

How does this relate to hits? In order to achieve Instant Collapse you must scramble the ???circuitry??? that keeps the bad guy on the attack. That means the brain or spinal cord.

The head is not only a fairly difficult target to hit in the real world ??? because it moves a lot ??? but it is also difficult to penetrate and get a pistol bullet into the place it must be to be effective. For normal purposes we might write off the head, keeping it in reserve for very special circumstances.

The spine is not that easy to hit either. It isn't large, and to be effective the hit needs to be in the upper 1/3 of the spine or at a point about level with the tip of the sternum. I think that is around T11. But of course the huge problem is that it is hidden by the rest of the body. We are the good guys, we don???t go around shooting people in the back. So the exact location is something that can only be learned through lots of practice on 3D targets. Your point of aim on the surface changes with the angle at which the target is facing.

The bottom of the spine isn't much use. I know of several people shot in the pelvis. It did not break them down as many theorize. I am not saying it doesn???t happen but in the only case I know of in which it did the person who was ???anchored??? with a .357 magnum to the pelvis killed the person that shot him ??? you can shoot just fine from prone.

A shot, or preferably multiple shots to the heart and major arteries above the heart (not below!) may achieve Rapid Collapse, but not always. Officer Stacy Lim was shot in the heart at contact distance with a .357 Magnum and is still alive and her attacker is still dead! Score one for the good guys???or in this case gals!

So now what constitutes Marginal Effectiveness? A hit to the lungs! Even multiple hits to the lungs. Unfortunately though, most often lung hits are effective in ending the fight because the subject decides to quit the fight, not because he MUST. A famous Colonel Louis LeGarde once wrote what is considered "the" book on gunshot wounds. 65% of his patients shot through the lungs ??? with rifles! ??? survived with the predominant treatment being only bed rest!
Effective Practice and "Dynamic Response"

The goal of practice, one would think, is to make correct, effective shooting techniques a matter of reflex, so that you don't have to think about what you are doing in a gunfight.

Most people will perform under stress at about 50 to 60% as well as they do on the range???and that is if they practice a lot! If they only go to the range once every other month that performance level decreases dramatically. Shooting and weapons handling are very perishable skills. Also folks tend to practice the wrong stuff inadvertently. I put this in the classification of ???practicing getting killed??? but that too is a topic for another day.
Movement and Variation doesen't mean
innacurate shooting. In a real gunfight you and
your adversary will most likely
be moving. Click here if you can't see the video. 

Let???s talks about a basic response, what I call "Dynamic Response." Situations vary and this is not meant to be a universal answer, just one that will work for about 80% of scenarios.

It is pointless to stand still on the range and shoot a stationary target, unless you simply want to polish up some marksmanship fundamentals. That is a necessary part of learning to shoot. But if you are practicing for a fight, then fight!

Some rules.


   1. Don???t go to the range without a covering garment ??? unless of course you always carry your gun exposed (no comment).
   2. Don???t practice drawing your gun fast ??? ever! ??? while standing still.

Part of the Dynamic Response is to step off the line of attack (or on rare occasions that are dependent on circumstances backwards or forwards) and present the weapon with as much alacrity as you can muster and engage the target with overwhelming and accurate fire! By the way, never assume a fight is completely over just because you canceled one threat. Don???t practice ???standing down??? too quickly. We have a video attached which will hopefully give you the right idea.

I wish there was a formula of how to stand and how to hold you gun but there really isn't. We don???t do ???Weaver vs. Isosceles vs. Modern Iso vs. whatever???. We don???t do ???Thumbs Crossed vs. Thumbs Forward vs. Thumb Up???never mind.??? Those are things for you to work out on your own. You use what makes YOU effective not what works for a guy who practices 50,000 rounds the week before a big match (that is not an exaggeration). Competitive shooters will throw out advice on what works for them. It may not work for you.



Cont:

The "Center Mass" Myth and Ending a Gunfight - Shoot Better! - GunsAmerica Magazine & Forums


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## Will Brink (Mar 23, 2010)

dg806 said:


> Awesome! Gonna give that a try!



Rock on!


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## ALBOB (Mar 23, 2010)

Damn Will, good article.  (Even if a bit disheartening.)  I've never heard anybody poo poo center mass hits before.  But he sure makes logical sense.  Guess I need to schedule some more range time with the ole .45.


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## Will Brink (Mar 23, 2010)

ALBOB said:


> Damn Will, good article.  (Even if a bit disheartening.)  I've never heard anybody poo poo center mass hits before.  But he sure makes logical sense.  Guess I need to schedule some more range time with the ole .45.



That's reality. He says what I and others have said for years, but he does a better job of summing it up. Friend of mine has been in 6 gun fights, won them all, and he's the one who sent me the article....


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## ALBOB (Mar 23, 2010)

Something I'm still not clear on though, WHAT am I aiming at?  I completely understand the Dynamic Response concept and how to practice it but, he never comes out and says to aim for the head instead of center mass.  (If he did, I missed it.)  So, during Dynamic Response training, assuming I'm using a standard B-27 sillouhette, do I aim for the head or center mass? 

Either way it gives credibility to the old cliche':  Winning their hearts and minds; two to the heart, one to the mind."


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## Will Brink (Mar 23, 2010)

ALBOB said:


> Something I'm still not clear on though, WHAT am I aiming at?  I completely understand the Dynamic Response concept and how to practice it but, he never comes out and says to aim for the head instead of center mass.  (If he did, I missed it.)  So, during Dynamic Response training, assuming I'm using a standard B-27 sillouhette, do I aim for the head or center mass?
> 
> Either way it gives credibility to the old cliche':  Winning their hearts and minds; two to the heart, one to the mind."



"A shot, or preferably multiple shots to the heart and major arteries above the heart (not below!) may achieve Rapid Collapse"

If you watch the vid there, you can see he places the bullets more or less upper center mass. His major point I think is not that center mass shots are not effective per se (head and spine shots are of course most effective but can't be counted on in a gun fight....) but that they unlikely to be effective under most circumstances with only a few rnds, and one should shoot and shoot often in a life and death situation.


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## ALBOB (Mar 23, 2010)

Will Brink said:


> "A shot, or preferably multiple shots to the heart and major arteries above the heart (not below!) may achieve Rapid Collapse"
> 
> If you watch the vid there, you can see he places the bullets more or less upper center mass. His major point I think is not that center mass shots are not effective per se (head and spine shots are of course most effective but can't be counted on in a gun fight....) but that they unlikely to be effective under most circumstances with only a few rnds, and one should shoot and shoot often in a life and death situation.



Oh HELL yeah!  Once you start shooting, you don't stop until the attack has been stopped.


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## maniclion (Mar 23, 2010)

So it's not really a Myth, he just makes you aware that it isn't an instant showstopper.  We were taught this in the Navy, just because you empty a clip into their chest doesn't mean they can't raise their arm one last time and put one in your head just like you see in the movies.  I thought aiming for the heart/center chest was the common goal, perforate the heart, lungs everything keeping the other guy pulling down on you....


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## maniclion (Mar 23, 2010)

ALBOB said:


> Oh HELL yeah!  Once you start shooting, you don't stop until the attack has been stopped.


Don't stop until they drop or at least their weapon does, then blow their fingers off so they can't put anyone else in that situation.....


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## ZECH (Mar 24, 2010)

Will Brink said:


> "A shot, or preferably multiple shots to the heart and major arteries above the heart (not below!) may achieve Rapid Collapse"
> 
> If you watch the vid there, you can see he places the bullets more or less upper center mass. His major point I think is not that center mass shots are not effective per se (head and spine shots are of course most effective but can't be counted on in a gun fight....) but that they unlikely to be effective under most circumstances with only a few rnds, and one should shoot and shoot often in a life and death situation.



One thing I would like to point out is that in police training, they train you to shoot center mass. I know you are familiar with this Will. They do not want it to look like you were "trying to kill the suspect", only stop him. Which I find very odd. Why do you shoot him in the first place? Because he poses a danger to you or the innocent public.  Courts are a very weird place to be and you never know how a case will go in court against you, even if you were right in your actions. I know it's a common practice and thought for every officer to shoot to kill if someone is shooting at you. But in court, you better not say that or it may get you in very hot water. 
On a side note, during some combat training during timed exercises, some instructors will make you take a head shot.


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## brk_nemesis (Mar 24, 2010)

dg806 said:


> One thing I would like to point out is that in police training, they train you to shoot center mass. I know you are familiar with this Will. They do not want it to look like you were "trying to kill the suspect", only stop him. Which I find very odd. Why do you shoot him in the first place? Because he poses a danger to you or the innocent public.  Courts are a very weird place to be and you never know how a case will go in court against you, even if you were right in your actions. I know it's a common practice and thought for every officer to shoot to kill if someone is shooting at you. But in court, you better not say that or it may get you in very hot water.
> On a side note, during some combat training during timed exercises, some instructors will make you take a head shot.



Because its bad PR for a perp to be on the ground with his face blown off, on the 6 o'clock evening news. 

Also the larger target of "centermass" dictates a higher hit probability which I believe Will has already mentioned all of this.

I usually train with a quick double tap to upper center mass, with 1 round to the head. Though I often train with mag dumps in double tap intervals which with practice can be easily controlled.


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## Will Brink (Mar 24, 2010)

dg806 said:


> One thing I would like to point out is that in police training, they train you to shoot center mass. I know you are familiar with this Will.



Yes, but it was shoot center mass twice, then assess. That has gotten many an officer killed. It's my understanding current training is teaching them to shoot 'till the threat is no longer a threat per this article. The old doctrine assumed 1-2 shots center mass would put them down (Ergo the myth...), and experience showed that not to be the case more often then not. 

I'm not privy to the training teachings of every academy, but I do know many LE and or Mil trainers, and the "2 shots center mass then assess" is long gone.

However, I have shot with many people - civi and LEO alike - who still follow it in their training (because they greatly over estimate the effectiveness of the bullets and or under estimate how tough people really are) and that can and will get you killed.


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## ALBOB (Mar 24, 2010)

Will Brink said:


> However, I have shot with many people - civi and LEO alike - who still follow it in their training (because they greatly over estimate the effectiveness of the bullets and or under estimate how tough people really are) and that can and will get you killed.



Whatchoo talkin' 'bout?!?!?  I shoot a .45 A C mofokin' P.  I hit a bad guy in the pinkey with that suckah and he'll spin around three times and drop dead just from the shockwave. 


And I NEVER miss, cause I gots me some badass sights on my heater:


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## brk_nemesis (Mar 25, 2010)

Will Brink said:


> Yes, but it was shoot center mass twice, then assess.


Yup. Ive never understood this,.. and fully agree too how this can put lives at jeopardy, which is why I personally would never rely solely on one double tap to do the job. Many of the guys I have shot with (LE, ex military and competitors) all train with accurate and controlled mag dumps in some form. I know each training facility/academy is different and everyone has or teaches their own technique, but I believe this is the most effective method.


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## FMJ (Mar 25, 2010)

That was a good read Will. Allot of officers shoot at my range and they tell me this stuff all the time, a gunfight isn't over until the gun is 10 feet away from an attacker. I've never even had to draw my weapon out on the street. I pray I never have to. Our pistol club does allot of Handgun safety drills outdoors and even in a controlled environment, knowing there is no real threats, my hand still gets the shakes from the adrenalin rush. So I do hope my skills kick in if the need ever comes because I'm not sure how calm I can remain if someone else is shooting back!


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## cheappinz (Apr 6, 2010)

criminals don't fill out paperwork and submit to background checks.  all the added regulations do is add more fees for hardworking people to pay..more hoops to jump through.  I don't care for guns and I dont have one, but I like knowing that nobody says I can't...


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## bio-chem (Apr 8, 2010)

Ariz. House approves concealed weapons bill - Yahoo! News

I love it. great news.


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## Will Brink (Jun 30, 2010)

Strike another one for the good guys! 5/4 decision, scary close (4 of them really need to get a clue...) but reason and actually paying attention to the spirit and intent of the Second Amendment won out. 

(Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday extended gun rights to every state and city in the nation in a ruling likely to spur new challenges to gun control measures across the United States.

U.S.  |  Politics

The 5-4 ruling could ultimately make it easier for individuals to own handguns in a country that already has the world's highest civilian gun ownership rate. Some 90 million Americans own an estimated 200 million guns.

Splitting along conservative and liberal lines, the nation's highest court extended its landmark 2008 ruling -- that individual Americans have a constitutional right to own guns -- to all cities and states for the first time.

The decision extending gun rights, one of the country's most divisive social, political and legal issues, was a setback for Chicago's 28-year-old ban on handguns, which now faces new judicial review and is likely to be eventually overturned.

Legal challenges to existing laws restricting gun use in other states and cities are also expected.

Investors saw the ruling as a win for gun makers, pushing shares of Smith & Wesson Holding Corp up 5.6 percent and Sturm Ruger & Co up 2.2 percent on Monday.

The right to bear arms, under the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, previously applied only to federal laws and federal enclaves, like Washington D.C., where the court struck down a similar handgun ban in its 2008 ruling.

The ruling, issued on the last day of the Supreme Court's term, was a victory for four Chicago-area residents, two gun rights groups and the powerful National Rifle Association.

"This decision makes absolutely clear that the Second Amendment protects the God-given right of self-defense for all law-abiding Americans, period," said Chris Cox, the rifle association's chief lobbyist.

Chicago had defended its law as a reasonable exercise of local power to protect public safety. That law, and a similar handgun ban in suburban Oak Park, Illinois, were the nation's most restrictive gun control measures.

"We hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the states," Justice Samuel Alito concluded for the court majority, ruling that the right to bear arms was a fundamental right.

YEARS OF LAWSUITS

It could take years of lawsuits before courts draw a clear line between an individual's right to a gun for self-defense and reasonable government gun regulations to reduce violent crimes like murder, suicide and accidental shooting deaths.

The justices did not strike down the Chicago law directly, but sent the case back to a U.S. appeals court for review, where it appeared likely to be struck down under the ruling.

Gun control advocates had expected the ruling and predicted that reasonable regulations would survive future challenges.

Paul Helmke of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence said, "We can expect two things as a result of today's decision. ... The gun lobby and gun criminals will use it to try to strike down gun laws, and those legal challenges will continue to fail."

The court's four liberal justices dissented.

Retiring Justice John Paul Stevens wrote in a 57-page dissent that the "consequences could prove far more destructive

-- quite literally -- to our nation's communities and to our constitutional structure."

It was widely seen as one of the Supreme Court's most important rulings this term, along with the decision in January that corporations can spend freely to support or defeat candidates for president and Congress.

Gun rights could emerge as a key issue at Senate confirmation hearings that started on Monday for Elena Kagan, nominated by President Barack Obama to replace Stevens.

'LOVE TO KILL'

In Chicago, a clearly disappointed Mayor Richard Daley said he was working on a new gun ordinance now that the Supreme Court had ruled on the city's handgun ban.

He also took issue with the court's majority ruling that elected officials were not doing enough to quell gun violence.

"Common sense tells you we need fewer guns, not more guns," Daley said. "When it comes to Chicago, the court has ignored all that has been done in the past decade to reduce the murder rate and violent crime."

Daley cited statistics detailing the nation's level of gun violence: 100,000 people shot each year, eight people dying each day from gunshots, one million dead since 1968, the year Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy were assassinated.

He said $10 billion a year is spent in the United States on guns and ammunition.

"We can kill more people in America than anywhere else," a visibly angry Daley told reporters. "We love to kill."

The Supreme Court case is McDonald v. City of Chicago, No. 08-1521.

(Additional reporting by Andrew Stern in Chicago, editing by Simon Denyer and Todd Eastham)


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## bio-chem (Jun 30, 2010)

Well done Will. I forgot to post this. Great news!


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## maniclion (Jun 30, 2010)

Guns are cool


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## FMJ (Jun 30, 2010)

maniclion said:


> Guns are cool


 
I sense sarcasm Manic.


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## Will Brink (Jun 30, 2010)

maniclion said:


> Guns are tools



Fixed it for ya.


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## ZECH (Jun 30, 2010)

I got an email from GOA as soon as it passed. I'm glad, but like Will, this should not have even been close. The newest member of the court, sonia sotomayor, said this during her confirmation hearings..............

On July 14 of last year, Sotomayor was asked by Sen. Pat Leahy during the confirmation hearings:

"Is it safe to say that you accept the Supreme Court's Decision [in Heller] as establishing that the Second Amendment right is an individual right?  Is that correct?"

Sotomayor responded:  "Yes, Sir."  In other words, she affirmed with her response that the right to keep and bear arms was a fundamental, individual right.

It's no surprise that she joined the anti-gun dissenters, but it highlights what a sham the judicial hearings are -- and how Senators should put no stock in a nominee's responses.
The same is being done right now with Elena Kagan. Kagan doesn't have a record of judicial opinions, but her views on the Second Amendment are no mystery:  

* Kagan drafted a directive in favor of a semi-automatic import ban while serving in the Clinton administration;

* As a law clerk, she advised against allowing the Supreme Court to hear arguments in Sandidge v. United States that the D.C. gun ban was unconstitutional; 

* Kagan was also part of the Clinton team that pushed the firearms industry to include gun locks with all gun purchases and was in the Clinton administration when the president pushed legislation that would close down gun shows; and

* Just today, Kagan gave a hint to her true colors.  When asked a simple question by Senator Grassley of Iowa -- does the Second Amendment codify a pre-existing right from God or is it a right created by the Constitution? -- Kagan looked like a deer caught in the headlights.  After an awkward pause, she said: "I've never considered that question."

Yikes... the Supreme Court is no place for on-the-job training!
If she is confirmed, you know she will vote right along side of the 3 liberls left (minus retiring judge).
We need to oppose this new appointment as hard as we can!


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## bio-chem (Jun 30, 2010)

dg806 said:


> I got an email from GOA as soon as it passed. I'm glad, but like Will, this should not have even been close. The newest member of the court, sonia sotomayor, said this during her confirmation hearings..............
> 
> On July 14 of last year, Sotomayor was asked by Sen. Pat Leahy during the confirmation hearings:
> 
> ...


I agree full force with what you put here. I fear kagan's appointment will go down just as easy as sotomayers did


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## ZECH (Jun 30, 2010)

Btw, here is my newest toy. THe pic came out blurry but you can tell what it is.
T/C .50 cal Triumph, Bone collector edition, with Leupold Ultimate slam 3-9x40 scope. 
Look out big bucks come deer season!


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## maniclion (Jun 30, 2010)

dg806 said:


> * Just today, Kagan gave a hint to her true colors.  When asked a simple question by Senator Grassley of Iowa -- does the Second Amendment codify a pre-existing right from God or is it a right created by the Constitution? -- Kagan looked like a deer caught in the headlights.  After an awkward pause, she said: "I've never considered that question."


What kind of question is that?  A right from God or created by the second amendment?  Sounds fucking silly....  Yes God said in 2nd Corinthians ye shall have the right to bear the contraption which flings lead by use if an explosive powder not yet invented but trust me when the time comes you shall all be allowed to own one....


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## maniclion (Jun 30, 2010)

Will Brink said:


> Fixed it for ya.


Hammering nails with your pistol is not cool...


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## ZECH (Jun 30, 2010)

whoa......not a right created by the second amendment.............
A right created by the constitution. Big difference.


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## Will Brink (Jun 30, 2010)

dg806 said:


> Btw, here is my newest toy. THe pic came out blurry but you can tell what it is.
> T/C .50 cal Triumph, Bone collector edition, with Leupold Ultimate slam 3-9x40 scope.
> Look out big bucks come deer season!



I just came back from a walk in the woods, and not 50ft from me was a deer. I literally could have taken her down with my CCW. It's not deer season, and I'm not a hunter, but it's ironic how hard it is for hunters to bag one, and there she was!


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## Will Brink (Jun 30, 2010)

maniclion said:


> What kind of question is that?.



I have to agree. I don't know how a person would answer such a question. Personally, something like "I believe the right to self defense is a basic human right, be it from tyranny or criminals, and the Second Amendment to the Constitution protects that right" would have covered her. God/Shiva/Allah has nothing to do with it nor should religion have been brought into the equation.


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## ZECH (Jun 30, 2010)

Will Brink said:


> I have to agree. I don't know how a person would answer such a question. Personally, something like "I believe the right to self defense is a basic human right, be it from tyranny or criminals, and the Second Amendment to the Constitution protects that right" would have covered her. God/Shiva/Allah has nothing to do with it nor should religion have been brought into the equation.



Problem is, she would never had said that because they could be held accountable if they made it that plain. They will either beat around the bush or lie about it. It would be alot easier if politicians would just tell us exactly how they will vote and let people who agree vote for them. But they will stoop to whatever level, to get elected. Both liberal and conservative alike....


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## ZECH (Jun 30, 2010)

Will Brink said:


> I just came back from a walk in the woods, and not 50ft from me was a deer. I literally could have taken her down with my CCW. It's not deer season, and I'm not a hunter, but it's ironic how hard it is for hunters to bag one, and there she was!



Yeah, I had a big doe at my birdbath over the weekend at 8 yds. I wanted to get my bow out bad! But they will be here come season mid september.


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## FMJ (Jul 1, 2010)

I live on the edge of the pocono mountains in PA. I can literally point my .45 out of the living room window, fire off a round and more times than not, hit a deer. 
It's as if this was NYC and they were pigeons! My wife complains she can't even have a garden because the deer think it's a salad bar!


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## FMJ (Jul 25, 2010)

Hey gun lovers.. I have a quick question.
I have a Sig P220 .45ACP and an XD 9. I decided I didn't wanna spend 30 bucks for 50 rounds of 45 anymore so on my gun forum (PAFOA) I listed my Sig for a trade up for a Sig 9 so I could use a single caliber for both firearms. I asked for the Sig P226, P229 or P239. 
A buddy of mine answered the post and offered me the P229 however it's not the SA/DA model. It's the Double Action Kellerman. 
I tried to read up on it but I don't understand the description.
Anyone have experience with a DAK trigger?
I'd love to trade up for the 229 but I don't know about this DAK model.


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## bio-chem (Jul 25, 2010)

my understanding is it's similar to the Glock style of trigger. I may be wrong on this because other than my 1911 I'm a SA/DA kind of guy


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## FMJ (Jul 25, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> my understanding is it's similar to the Glock style of trigger. I may be wrong on this because other than my 1911 I'm a SA/DA kind of guy


 
Yeah, they say it's supposed to be like Glock. But I've owned a Gloack 19 and it never did this "reset" thing. Supposedly, if you keep the trigger depressed after discharging, the pull is lighter than if you let out the trigger completely but than only if you let out the trigger... halfway?
I don't get that. How the hell am I supposed to know whats halfway or completely? LOL.
I can't find anyone with a DAK to at least try it out first and I don't wanna drive halfway to Philly to find out I don't like it, ya know?


----------



## DOMS (Jul 25, 2010)

FMJ said:


> I can't find anyone with a DAK to at least try it out first and I don't wanna drive halfway to Philly to find out I don't like it, ya know?



Would it make sense to go to an indoor gun range and rent one?


----------



## FMJ (Jul 25, 2010)

DOMS said:


> Would it make sense to go to an indoor gun range and rent one?


 
Yes! It would make great sense. But the ranges by me don't rent sigs.
I guess they're too nice to be run into the ground.
I checked three different places. I stopped asking when the last guy laughed at me. Jackass.
I tried the gun shops by me too just to dry fire. Plenty of Sigs. None DAK.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 25, 2010)

You could try calling a gun store and telling the employee what you're trying to do.  He'll say that he doesn't rent like that or let you live fire his guns.  Then you ask him if he knows someone outside of the work that would let you pay a few bucks to meet you at a range and let you fire his DAK-style gun.


----------



## FMJ (Jul 25, 2010)

DOMS said:


> You could try calling a gun store and telling the employee what you're trying to do. He'll say that he doesn't rent like that or let you live fire his guns. Then you ask him if he knows someone outside of the work that would let you pay a few bucks to meet you at a range and let you fire his DAK-style gun.


 
Possibly. Finding one is the hard part. They're not really a popular model. Which is one of the reasons I'm hesitant. I asked the guys on the gun forum and some like them and some hate them... of course.
I follow the rule of try before you buy, as I'm sure most do. 
I guess it's not the end of the world to meet him. It's only a 90 minute drive. I just want someone to help me understand how it's different from the DAO or SA/DA. I can't wrap my head around it. It's not even my time I'm concerned about.. I would feel really bad making him drive the 3 hour round trip and not going through with the trade.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 25, 2010)

Sorry man, my hands on knowledge of guns is limited.  I've fired a bunch, but don't know a whole lot about the details.


----------



## FMJ (Jul 25, 2010)

DOMS said:


> Sorry man, my hands on knowledge of guns is limited. I've fired a bunch, but don't know a whole lot about the details.


 
No worries brother. You're always chock full of good ideas. I'm gonna call a few more places and try your suggestion. Just ask the clerks if they know anyone with a DAK model and if they'd be willing to let me fire it. Gun owners are a good bunch and in these situations very helpful.


----------



## brk_nemesis (Jul 26, 2010)

Ive heard good and bad about the Dak's. But Sig makes a good pistol. The advantage if my memory serves me right, is it is supposedly not a striker-fired action, meaning if there is a misfire, you dont have to pull back the slide to preset/reset the striker like in a glock. Just pull the trigger again. The disadvantage is the trigger is a lil' heavier.

Either way... go shoot it and see if you like it.


Im a 1911 guy myself.


----------



## ZECH (Jul 26, 2010)

How many guys here are knowledgable on scopes for rifles? I'm going on a antelope hunt in Wyoming in Oct. I just ordered a Remington 270WSM. I need a GOOD scope to be able to possibly shoot 400-500 yards if needed. I am looking at a VX II 4-12 x 40. Any other suggestions?


----------



## brk_nemesis (Jul 26, 2010)

dg806 said:


> How many guys here are knowledgable on scopes for rifles? I'm going on a antelope hunt in Wyoming in Oct. I just ordered a Remington 270WSM. I need a GOOD scope to be able to possibly shoot 400-500 yards if needed. I am looking at a VX II 4-12 x 40. Any other suggestions?


Depends on how much $$ you looking to spend....

A lower cost Leupold would be fine. I usually advocate not spending less than $500 on a pair of optics but that is from a tactical perspective.  You get what you pay for when you byy optics. But you are only hunting with it so spending that much  $$$ isnt really worth it. I see no reason to put a $1000+ IOR or NF on a hunting rifle. Go with the Leupold, they make quality optics. You could even consider a redfield if you wanna save some $$ as they got bought out by Leupold and are now made by them.


----------



## Nightowl (Jul 26, 2010)

maniclion said:


> What kind of question is that? A right from God or created by the second amendment? Sounds fucking silly.... Yes God said in 2nd Corinthians ye shall have the right to bear the contraption which flings lead by use if an explosive powder not yet invented but trust me when the time comes you shall all be allowed to own one....


 





oh  my gawd


I say that gun control is both hands on the gun


----------



## ZECH (Jul 27, 2010)

brk_nemesis said:


> Depends on how much $$ you looking to spend....
> 
> A lower cost Leupold would be fine. I usually advocate not spending less than $500 on a pair of optics but that is from a tactical perspective.  You get what you pay for when you byy optics. But you are only hunting with it so spending that much  $$$ isnt really worth it. I see no reason to put a $1000+ IOR or NF on a hunting rifle. Go with the Leupold, they make quality optics. You could even consider a redfield if you wanna save some $$ as they got bought out by Leupold and are now made by them.



Yeah the leupold vx II 4-12 x 40 is right at $500. With the LR duplex reticle, I should be good to go from 200-500yds. I could spend more money, but I dont really think I need to. I could also use the extra money on a nice set on Nikon Monarch or Edge binoculars.
Also you have hit on something with the Redfields. Since Leupold now makes them, I bet they are good quality. I expect them to go up in price in a year or so. Now is time to buy them and get a good scope for a lower price.


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 27, 2010)

brk_nemesis said:


> Depends on how much $$ you looking to spend....
> 
> A lower cost Leupold would be fine. I usually advocate not spending less than $500 on a pair of optics but that is from a tactical perspective.  You get what you pay for when you byy optics. But you are only hunting with it so spending that much  $$$ isnt really worth it. I see no reason to put a $1000+ IOR or NF on a hunting rifle. Go with the Leupold, they make quality optics. You could even consider a redfield if you wanna save some $$ as they got bought out by Leupold and are now made by them.



I've actually been very impressed with the quality of redfield's new scopes. $150 and you get a quality hunting scope that will reach out to 450-500 yards for you no worries


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 27, 2010)

dg806 said:


> How many guys here are knowledgable on scopes for rifles? I'm going on a antelope hunt in Wyoming in Oct. I just ordered a Remington 270WSM. I need a GOOD scope to be able to possibly shoot 400-500 yards if needed. I am looking at a VX II 4-12 x 40. Any other suggestions?



i just recently started looking at the ballistics of the 270 WSM. amazing. I've always been happy with my .308, but holy crap that is a pretty round.


----------



## ZECH (Jul 27, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> i just recently started looking at the ballistics of the 270 WSM. amazing. I've always been happy with my .308, but holy crap that is a pretty round.



Yep. Several hundred feet per second faster than a regular 270 and 15% more muzzle energy. Made it to compete with and numbers are similiar to the 7mm Rem.
Probably one of the bes short mags made.
Bought some Winchester Supreme the other day ($50)........They only drop 5.5 inches at 300yds. Gonna put the smackdown on a goat!


----------



## ROID (Jul 27, 2010)

dg806 said:


> How many guys here are knowledgable on scopes for rifles? I'm going on a antelope hunt in Wyoming in Oct. I just ordered a Remington 270WSM. I need a GOOD scope to be able to possibly shoot 400-500 yards if needed. I am looking at a VX II 4-12 x 40. Any other suggestions?



I have no clue.

I've been to Wyoming though. I don't think you really have to hunt, there is an abundance of creatures everywhere you look.

I would buy eskimo clothes because it's gonna be cold in october there I think.

How much is it costing you to hunt there ? I was told it's very expensive.


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 27, 2010)

dg806 said:


> Yep. Several hundred feet per second faster than a regular 270 and 15% more muzzle energy. Made it to compete with and numbers are similiar to the 7mm Rem.
> Probably one of the bes short mags made.
> Bought some Winchester Supreme the other day ($50)........They only drop 5.5 inches at 300yds. Gonna put the smackdown on a goat!



you do any reloading? I wonder what the hornady superformance ammo looks like ballistically for the 270 WSM. i've got to admit. I might be looking at a 270wsm in my future the more i learn about it.


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 27, 2010)

ROID said:


> I have no clue.
> 
> I've been to Wyoming though. I don't think you really have to hunt, there is an abundance of creatures everywhere you look.
> 
> ...



please dude. serious posts only in this thread.


----------



## brk_nemesis (Jul 27, 2010)

The ballistics arent bad at all for the 270wsm,.. but I am more of a tac/military guy. If it aint broke,... dont fix it, and the more proven, more plentiful, and less expensive; the better in terms of ammo. I am stocked up on so much 556, 7.62x 39, and 7.62 x 51, i could build a small fort in the backyard with all the crates, lol. All those calibers are "relatively" plentiful and affordable, and majority of all assault/battle rifles operate in those calibers so.....

if SHTF.....


----------



## ZECH (Jul 28, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> you do any reloading? I wonder what the hornady superformance ammo looks like ballistically for the 270 WSM. i've got to admit. I might be looking at a 270wsm in my future the more i learn about it.



Yeah I have reloaded for years. Already bought a set of dies for it. Im going to try some IMR 4350 and H 4831 and see which one performs better in the gun. Both get over 3200fps.


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 28, 2010)

Can't speak on duty belts as I don't use one, but if looking for an off duty/CCW belt, no one makes a better belt then The Belt Man belts:

Gun Belts by The Belt Man

They may cost a tad more, and you may have to wait a while to get one (as each is made to order) but they are the finest belts made, will last a life time, look great, and secure your gear as it should be, using a proper made belt.

I have 3 belts from this place, have tried may other brands (none to my long term satisfaction) and can recommend the Belt Man without reservation.

Anyone who CCWs 24/7, year in and year out, will tell you a good belt (and holster) is everything to comfort and concealment.

I see a lot of people using crappy belts off duty/CCW, and you don't know what you are missing in comfort and security if you have not used a high quality gun belt.


----------



## FMJ (Jul 28, 2010)

dg806 said:


> Yeah I have reloaded for years. Already bought a set of dies for it. Im going to try some IMR 4350 and H 4831 and see which one performs better in the gun. Both get over 3200fps.


 
I love reloading my own brass. 
If I use factory .45 I can't hit shit but my loads are one on top of the other. I could group 5 rounds within two inches at 15 feet with my reloads. But I use a light charge so they fire off slow as shit. You can almost see the bullet leaving the gun!


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 28, 2010)

FMJ said:


> I love reloading my own brass.
> If I use factory .45 I can't hit shit but my loads are one on top of the other. I could group 5 rounds within two inches at 15 feet with my reloads. But I use a light charge so they fire off slow as shit. You can almost see the bullet leaving the gun!



 I know what you mean. a buddy of mine reloads his .45's like that. did you have cycling problems at all? have to change out a spring or was everything just fine?


----------



## FMJ (Jul 28, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> I know what you mean. a buddy of mine reloads his .45's like that. did you have cycling problems at all? have to change out a spring or was everything just fine?


 
No issues. I didn't go below the minimum charge specified by the Hornady data. I used exactly the minimum. It improved the accuracy and still ejected and cycled the rounds with no problem.


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 28, 2010)

FMJ said:


> No issues. I didn't go below the minimum charge specified by the Hornady data. I used exactly the minimum. It improved the accuracy and still ejected and cycled the rounds with no problem.



is this a 1911? you shooting 200 grain semi-wad cutters or 230grn round nose? FMJ like your name states or lead? lol


----------



## FMJ (Jul 28, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> is this a 1911? you shooting 200 grain semi-wad cutters or 230grn round nose? FMJ like your name states or lead? lol


 
No, it's a Sig P220 and I use Berry Manufacturing 230 grain RN FMJ.
Just like the name says.. Full Metal Jackets!


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 28, 2010)

FMJ said:


> No, it's a Sig P220 and I use Berry Manufacturing 230 grain RN FMJ.
> Just like the name says.. Full Metal Jackets!



cool. im sure you said that already in this thread. I was just too lazy to go back and look it up


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 20, 2010)

Alright guys. I'm looking to replace the fixed 4x scope on my .308 winchester model 70 featherweight. I'm looking at going with this Redfield Revolution Riflescopes
3x9x40 with the Accu-Range Reticle. if you have any other suggestions or thoughts on what I should also take a look at I'm happy to listen


----------



## GearsMcGilf (Dec 20, 2010)

A buncha gun nuts looking for an extension of ur cock!  Every last one of yas!


----------



## MDR (Dec 20, 2010)

FMJ said:


> No, it's a Sig P220 and I use Berry Manufacturing 230 grain RN FMJ.
> Just like the name says.. Full Metal Jackets!



I also have a Sig P200.  Hobby gets expensive these days if you don't reload.  My brother has all the reloading equipment, so when I moved away I lost access.  I'm gonna have to break down and get my own one of these days.  I like the new Sig elites, too.  They really make great guns.


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 20, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> A buncha gun nuts looking for an extension of ur cock!  Every last one of yas!



Is the vagisil not working for you this time and it's made you cranky? jk


----------



## bio-chem (Jan 21, 2011)

bio-chem said:


> Alright guys. I'm looking to replace the fixed 4x scope on my .308 winchester model 70 featherweight. I'm looking at going with this Redfield Revolution Riflescopes
> 3x9x40 with the Accu-Range Reticle. if you have any other suggestions or thoughts on what I should also take a look at I'm happy to listen



So I went out and got this rifle scope. And I love it. other than working with cabella's it's a great scope. I've got it mounted on my model 70 featherweight .308 and it really makes for a nice set up. I'll try and take a picture of it and post it up here. it really looks nice.


----------



## Zaphod (Jan 22, 2011)

Bought a Ruger P95 shortly before Christmas.  My present to myself.  Shoots really well.  Accuracy is decent.  Being a 9mm it's reasonably cheap to shoot.  

Now I'm putting money aside to get a revolver.  Probably a .357 so there's a wider selection of ammo to load it with.


----------



## Big Pimpin (Jan 22, 2011)

This is going to be my next gift to myself and you can pick them up on gunbroker.com for ~$1300.


Ruger® SR-556® Autoloading Rifle


----------



## ZECH (Jan 22, 2011)

Big Pimpin said:


> This is going to be my next gift to myself and you can pick them up on gunbroker.com for ~$1300.
> 
> 
> Ruger® SR-556® Autoloading Rifle



Thats retail....don't pay that.


----------



## hagaroids (Jan 22, 2011)

I'm on ar15.com

bunch of good guys there. little goofy, but good.


----------



## Big Pimpin (Jan 22, 2011)

dg806 said:


> Thats retail....don't pay that.




Huh?  The same gun is on sale for $1550 at my local dealer.  

If you know where I can get one for less than $1300 hook me bro!


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 17, 2011)

So went shooting today and shot a m-1 garand from 1941. amazing piece of history there. loved the 'ping' after the last shot. one of the few things hollywood hasn't totally butchered. what an amazing day. m1 garand, m14, and ar10 all shot today. what an amazing day!


----------



## JCBourne (Jul 17, 2011)

Will Brink said:


> Anyone who CCWs 24/7, year in and year out, will tell you a good belt (and holster) is everything to comfort and concealment.



This is very true. I have 2 made to custom fit my gun as I'm always carrying.



bio-chem said:


> So went shooting today and shot a m-1 garand  from 1941. amazing piece of history there. loved the 'ping' after the  last shot. one of the few things hollywood hasn't totally butchered.  what an amazing day. m1 garand, m14, and ar10 all shot today. what an  amazing day!



Awesome. I shot a AK-47 a guy at the range let me shoot his. That gun was absolutely awesome and accurate. I love AR's, I have a custom AR-15, things a blast to shoot and fun hitting things 300+ yards away!


----------



## SloppyJ (Jul 17, 2011)

I had a shitty day at the range. I took my colt new agent and my S&W bodyguard out. I let my friend shoot my colt and I went to rack a round afterward. The fucking recoil sping is fucked and I cannot get the slide back enough to dis-assemble it. I'm fucking pissed. Guess I have to send it back to the factory. Awful grinding noise when I try to move the slide back. And the recoil spring and rod are crooked. and recessed.

Accurate AK? Damn. I had a romainian WASR and it was shot all over the place. But whatever it hit, it mowed down.


----------



## JCBourne (Jul 17, 2011)

This AK was dead accurate with iron sights. My AR is the one in the avatar.


----------



## jagbender (Jul 18, 2011)

I used to shoot Bullseye competition, I have several Custom target guns. 

I love my 1911's My custon .45 will shoot 10 shot groups @ 50 YARDS 1 7/16 inchs center to center, From a ransom rest. Much better than my abilities. 

I shot competition for several years. 
one of the bullseye forums 

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/

Also the 1911 forums mentioned above.


----------



## jagbender (Jul 18, 2011)

Shooting a gun well is really easy, you just need to *master* *trigger control and* *sight alignment* *together*.  easy to say hard to do.


----------



## Hell (Jul 18, 2011)

Classic Arms Inc.

I like to browse this site at work some days....Usually got something cool on there I want....


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 18, 2011)

hagaroids said:


> I'm on ar15.com
> 
> bunch of good guys there. little goofy, but good.



You will generally get better info, and less wanna be SEAL/ninja noise, at M4Carbine.net


----------



## SloppyJ (Jul 18, 2011)

So anyone ever dealt with colt on a repair job? I have to send my 1911 back to them because I assume the guide rod is shattered. I cannot disassemble to verify. The guy on the phone told me 2 weeks after they recieve. That seems a little overzealous to me.


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 18, 2011)

SloppyJ said:


> So anyone ever dealt with colt on a repair job? I have to send my 1911 back to them because I assume the guide rod is shattered. I cannot disassemble to verify. The guy on the phone told me 2 weeks after they recieve. That seems a little overzealous to me.



1911s don't need a guide rod nor were they intended/design to have one. Why can't disassemble? Throw away broken guide rod, buy basic spring plug online, problem fixed. Colt has had known terrible CS back in the day (one of various reasons they lost most of their market share...) but have not heard anything recently on that. Does not sound like things have improved.

Buying advice I give everyone (to which they then ignore cause they don't believe me) as there are various good 1911s,* always* choose the company known for great CS, because unless you are a smith, _they will need work of some kind _at some point.


----------



## SloppyJ (Jul 18, 2011)

Will Brink said:


> 1911s don't need a guide rod nor were they intended/design to have one. Why can't disassemble? Throw away broken guide rod, buy basic spring plug online, problem fixed. Colt has had known terrible CS back in the day (one of various reasons they lost most of their market share...) but have not heard anything recently on that. Does not sound like things have improved.
> 
> Buying advice I give everyone (to which they then ignore cause they don't believe me) as there are various good 1911s,* always* choose the company known for great CS, because unless you are a smith, _they will need work of some kind _at some point.


 
I can't disassemble it because the slide won't come back far enough because it's hung on the guide rod/spring and I can't pop the pin out. I have a 3" new agent. Apparently I'm not the only one who's had this problem. Except most aren't this bad. I'm not sure what happened but it's fucked off. I have a feeling it's bad by the grinding noises it's making when i move the slide. Hopefully they take care of me. 

If not, I'll never buy another colt.


----------



## Will Brink (Jul 18, 2011)

SloppyJ said:


> I can't disassemble it because the slide won't come back far enough because it's hung on the guide rod/spring and I can't pop the pin out. I have a 3" new agent. Apparently I'm not the only one who's had this problem. Except most aren't this bad. I'm not sure what happened but it's fucked off. I have a feeling it's bad by the grinding noises it's making when i move the slide. Hopefully they take care of me.
> 
> If not, I'll never buy another colt.



Colt makes some great guns, but their CS has always been sub par. Back in the day, they were the only company that made quality 1911s, but that has not been the case for a long time, so one can get a great 1911 from a company with great CS, they should.


----------



## SloppyJ (Jul 18, 2011)

Will Brink said:


> Colt makes some great guns, but their CS has always been sub par. Back in the day, they were the only company that made quality 1911s, but that has not been the case for a long time, so one can get a great 1911 from a company with great CS, they should.


 
We will find out. The dude didn't hesitate to send me replacement parts for free. But then I told him I couldn't take it down and he said just to send it in. So far so good, but this is just the begining.


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 18, 2011)

Brink has damn good advice. he doesn't often show up but what he knows, he knows very well.


----------



## Curt James (Jul 19, 2011)

Will Brink said:


> (snip) Anyone who CCWs 24/7, year in and year out, will tell you a good belt (and holster) is everything to comfort and concealment.
> 
> I see a lot of people using crappy belts off duty/CCW, and you don't know what you are missing in comfort and security if you have not used a high quality gun belt.








"_NOW _he tells me."
???Gilbert Arenas


----------



## Scottydogg (Jul 28, 2011)

Your not from Oslo are you ?


----------



## ALBOB (Jul 28, 2011)

Scottydogg said:


> Your not from Oslo are you ?




Negative reps 4 U


----------



## Big Pimpin (Jul 28, 2011)

ALBOB said:


> Negative reps 4 U


----------



## bio-chem (Sep 5, 2011)

OK then. I just got invited to go back to Arkansas and hunt some razorback. I'm looking to purchase a Marlin lever gun for this hunt. Still deciding between .338 Marlin Express and the .444 Marlin. I love the ballistics of the .338 of course. But the history of the .444 has quite a draw to me. Thoughts, comments, suggestions, or derogatory remarks are all greatly appreciated and welcome


----------



## ALBOB (Sep 6, 2011)

Dude, have you ever shot a Marlin lever gun?  With that straight stock every ounce of energy goes right into your shoulder.  I drooled over a .444 Marlin for years.  A friend of mine finally let me shoot his and one shot was all it took to convince me, never again.  A better bet would be a shorter bolt action rifle (Like the Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle) or a big bore handgun.


----------



## bio-chem (Sep 6, 2011)

ALBOB said:


> Dude, have you ever shot a Marlin lever gun?  With that straight stock every ounce of energy goes right into your shoulder.  I drooled over a .444 Marlin for years.  A friend of mine finally let me shoot his and one shot was all it took to convince me, never again.  A better bet would be a shorter bolt action rifle (Like the Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle) or a big bore handgun.



Yes i've shot them. The model 444 big bore Marlin lever action has a pistol-grip and the recoil pad is pretty nice on those things. It felt about like a 7mm mag honestly. and shooting off hand removes some of the felt recoil even further. I didn't feel it to be that bad. then again normal to me is a winchester model 70 featherweight in .308 with one of those old school red butt pads that provides about as much recoil reduction as a 2x4 would. so


----------



## ALBOB (Sep 7, 2011)

bio-chem said:


> Yes i've shot them. The model 444 big bore Marlin lever action has a pistol-grip and the recoil pad is pretty nice on those things. It felt about like a 7mm mag honestly. and shooting off hand removes some of the felt recoil even further. I didn't feel it to be that bad. then again *normal to me is a winchester model 70 featherweight in .308 with one of those old school red butt pads that provides about as much recoil reduction as a 2x4 would.* so




Jeeze, how many times has your shoulder been saparated?!?!? 

My .308 is an M1A with a HUGE Springfield scope on it.  The set up must weigh in at close to 20 lbs.  Combine the weight with the semi-auto action and THAT is my idea of what recoil should feel like.


----------



## bio-chem (Sep 7, 2011)

ALBOB said:


> Jeeze, how many times has your shoulder been saparated?!?!?
> 
> My .308 is an M1A with a HUGE Springfield scope on it.  The set up must weigh in at close to 20 lbs.  Combine the weight with the semi-auto action and THAT is my idea of what recoil should feel like.



the m1a scout squad is on my to purchase list. i should get that as a christmas present to myself

im jealous you already have one


----------



## ALBOB (Sep 8, 2011)

Definitely get it, you won't regret it for a second.


----------



## bio-chem (Sep 9, 2011)

ALBOB said:


> Definitely get it, you won't regret it for a second.



that is a beautiful set up you have there. my congrats. I've thought putting a red dot on the forward rail would be an optimal set up for that rifle


----------



## Big Pimpin (Sep 12, 2011)

As I previously mentioned I recently bought the wife a new Gen 4 G17, so we finally got a chance to shoot it this Saturday.  

Well the first fukking round fired then mis-fed!  I had read these Gen 4's had initial mis-feeding problems and it was corrected by a new spring.  I inquired about this when I bought the gun and the sales chick said spring/guide rod # xxx is bad and the number xxx in this gun is the new model.  

Ok then.

We continued to shoot this gun and some Glock .40's and each magazine from the new G17 had a mis-feed.  

I called Glock at 8am this morning and their solution is to send out a new spring assembly for free of course.  

All that said, this G17 is fucking dead nuts accurate on range ammo at 10yds.  The wife was shooting .50-.75" groups.


----------



## bio-chem (Sep 12, 2011)

congrats on the misses who has game shooting hand guns.


----------



## Will Brink (Sep 15, 2011)

Here's my attempt at some gun art, or gun porn as they say...I prefer art! 











Additional knife/gun/watch combos:

G Art pictures by willbrink - Photobucket


----------



## ALBOB (Sep 15, 2011)

Art - Porn:  It's all in the eyes of the beholder. 


But your attempt failed.  All I see is a red "X" and I can't view Photobucket from work.   I Soooooo wanted to see some good gun porn...........uhhh.... art.


----------



## Will Brink (Sep 15, 2011)

ALBOB said:


> Art - Porn:  It's all in the eyes of the beholder.
> 
> 
> But your attempt failed.  All I see is a red "X" and I can't view Photobucket from work.   I Soooooo wanted to see some good gun porn...........uhhh.... art.



Then view from your non work comp I guess. I see the pics fine, so must be blocked on your end. Hope others can see them.


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## bio-chem (Sep 15, 2011)

view just fine here Will. keep the gun porn comming


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## bio-chem (Oct 9, 2011)

So in the last week i've purchased a .444 marlin and a .325 WSM very much looking forward to taking these two to the range soon. checked off a couple of guns from my list.


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## Zaphod (Oct 10, 2011)

This Friday I'm picking up a ParaUSA GI Expert.


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## Big Pimpin (Oct 10, 2011)

I'm still waiting on that GD ejection spring from Glock.   

I ran into the woman at the gun store who sold this G17 to me and she said she hasn't seen a new Glock in 2 months because all Glock is doing is manufacturing new springs.  She works at a Mil/LEO/FED/GSSF only Glock dealer and she said she has orders for 390 Glocks that can't be filled at the moment.


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## Big Pimpin (Oct 10, 2011)

Santa might have to bring me a Ruger SR-556C this year.


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## bio-chem (Oct 10, 2011)

Big Pimpin said:


> I'm still waiting on that GD ejection spring from Glock.
> 
> I ran into the woman at the gun store who sold this G17 to me and she said she hasn't seen a new Glock in 2 months because all Glock is doing is manufacturing new springs.  She works at a Mil/LEO/FED/GSSF only Glock dealer and she said she has orders for 390 Glocks that can't be filled at the moment.



Wow. I've not heard anything about this. Glocks have to be the easiest handgun to find around here. no waiting at all


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## Big Pimpin (Oct 11, 2011)

bio-chem said:


> Wow. I've not heard anything about this. Glocks have to be the easiest handgun to find around here. no waiting at all



Long before I bought this new Gen 4 there was a problem with ejection springs, however it was supposed to be fixed when Glock went to a spring with 3 numbers on it which my gun had (verified before I purchased).


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## Will Brink (Oct 24, 2011)

Big Pimpin said:


> Santa might have to bring me a Ruger SR-556C this year.



The place people really know the AR platform is M4Carbine (vs that other forum that tends to be full of wanna be mall ninjas...) and due to their opinions, I would not buy that Ruger:

Ruger SR556 - M4Carbine.net Forums

Ruger is just jumping on the AR bandwagon, and is new to that market. If I wanted a real kick ass piston AR, HK-416 (forget the civilian model) would be it, but it's big $$$.

Otherwise, I'd stick to companies we already know make damn fine AR/M4s, like Colt, DD, LMT, etc. of the standard design that' served BTDT types very well...

Search above forum for good AR/M4 info and don't get sucked into hype and Ruger marketing.


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## sofargone561 (Oct 24, 2011)

i have to shit


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## Big Pimpin (Oct 25, 2011)

Will Brink said:


> The place people really know the AR platform is M4Carbine (vs that other forum that tends to be full of wanna be mall ninjas...) and due to their opinions, I would not buy that Ruger:
> 
> Ruger SR556 - M4Carbine.net Forums
> 
> ...



Thanks.  I do know Ruger is new to the AR game but they seem to getting good reviews on this gun and the C model seems to correct the barrel heavy issue they bitched about on the first gen.  

I'll check out that HK.


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## Big Pimpin (Oct 25, 2011)

FWIW Glock finally delivered an ejection spring for the wife's new Gen 4 G17.  I put it in Saturday and ran ~70 rds through it in the backyard as fast I could and it didn't jamb once.  It still hasn't proven itself to me so this is the wife's backup gun until I run another 250 rds through it and feel comfortable.   

Until then Annie Oakley is sleeping with a Glock .40 on the nights I'm not home.


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## Will Brink (Oct 25, 2011)

Big Pimpin said:


> Thanks.  I do know Ruger is new to the AR game but they seem to getting good reviews on this gun and the C model seems to correct the barrel heavy issue they bitched about on the first gen.
> 
> I'll check out that HK.



When it comes to a piston driven AR, the 416 was developed with Delta, and there's no better:

Heckler & Koch HK416 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think you can buy a 416 upper and buy a lower from another brand and save big $$$.

Other then that, I'd stick to the brands we already know make great ARs of the standard design. This is the Colt 6490, monolithic rail, floating barrel, etc. It's far and away a better product then anything Ruger will make:


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## Big Pimpin (Oct 25, 2011)

Nice.  HK makes some of the best shooting toys on the planet (I wish I had a MP5 ).

One thing I really don't want to do is buy a project, I want something relatively GTG out of the box.


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## Will Brink (Oct 25, 2011)

Big Pimpin said:


> Nice.  HK makes some of the best shooting toys on the planet (I wish I had a MP5 ).
> 
> One thing I really don't want to do is buy a project, I want something relatively GTG out of the box.



Finished upper, finished lower, pop in two retaining pins, gun is GTG. Not much of a project there, but I believe HK is now making a full civilian version of the 416, and or simply go with brands mentioned/search M4C forums for additional info, where you will learn a ton, save money, etc.

Those guys really know their sh%$ over there when it comes to AR/M4 platforms.


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## SloppyJ (Oct 25, 2011)

Just ordered a Smith and Wesson M&P 15. This will be my first M-4 platform gun. Is it bad that I already have a new quad rail, Red dot, and random other parts to put on it before I even shoot it? 

And I just picked this up. They just came back out. Colt mustang pocketlite .380


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## ZECH (Oct 25, 2011)

Great little carry gun


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## bio-chem (Oct 25, 2011)

recently i've purchased a Savage 16 .325 used and a .444 Marlin also used. first 5 shots from the .325 with box ammo was shooting under 1.5" I'm very pleased. a bit of handloading and i can't wait to see where this bad boy perks.


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## Will Brink (Nov 26, 2011)

Shot the "frozen turkey" match yesterday  and one stage in particular was a lot of fun. 

First things first. I was really rusty, and it showed. I got hit with several newbie proceedurals (such as not retaining a mag with ammo still in it, etc) and such.

I was "OK" for me considering the rust, but FUBARd one stage *badly*, which sucked out loud. 

This one stage I got on film was a lot of fun and messed a lot of people up... scenario: you were dropping your GF off at home, and﻿ some gang decided to do bad things to you/her and you have to pull GF down to safety (which started a 6 second timer for that moving target), engage target right at the drivers window with 4rnds to slide lock, reload, and engage the other targets.

Your firearm and ammo are all in a tool box on the floor of car as the scenario is you put it there on your way back from work, which why you see me reaching for everything

Some tried different strategies, like trying to store a mag in their mag pouch and others, but this usually lead to fumbling and or missing the mover while fumbling, etc. I chose to dump the mags on the seat and work from there. 

I got two into the stationary target (to the left) and engaged the mover, then back to the stationary. 

Each target had to have a least 4 holes in it, with two best shots scored.**

I was a tad slow, but my hits were all good on this stage, so I'll take it.

I think it's important and useful to vid matches occasionally as it's useful as a training tool, get feedback from others, etc.

Mistakes: On this stage (don't even wanna talk about some of the others...) I did a tac reload knowing I didn't have enough ammo to fully engage last target, and threw the mag into the car seat. Me, I considered that retaining it as it was where i wanted it and under my control, but retention = on your person, so got a procedural for that one. 

I should have just spun around and gone to slide lock on that last target, dumped the empty mag, grabbed a new one off the seat, and added a few more.

Here's the stage vid:






YouTube Video











Frozen Turkey match IDPA 2011 - YouTube



** = personally, when in doubt, send more love. I'll add extra rnds to targets if I'm not 100% sure where I'm hitting and don't care what that does to the score.


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## Witmaster (Nov 26, 2011)

Will Brink said:


> ** = personally, when in doubt, send more love. I'll add extra rnds to targets if I'm not 100% sure where I'm hitting and don't care what that does to the score.


 
I'm assuming you were shooting your .45?

That sounds like a pretty cool event.  I've never competed but have taken part in multiple tacical shooting (training) engagements.  USSA (near my hometown in Okahoma) has some great ranges/scenerios.


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## Will Brink (Nov 26, 2011)

Witmaster said:


> I'm assuming you were shooting your .45?



No, I have moved mostly to 9mm and the Smith & Wesson M&P platform.



Witmaster said:


> That sounds like a pretty cool event.  I've never competed but have taken part in multiple tacical shooting (training) engagements.  USSA (near my hometown in Okahoma) has some great ranges/scenerios.



Try some IDPA, you'll enjoy it for sure.


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## Big Pimpin (Nov 28, 2011)

My brother called me yesterday afternoon and said he and the wife were going to the range and asked if I wanted to come.  I said it's probably a bad idea since I've been drinking for the last 3 hours.


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## Will Brink (Nov 28, 2011)

Some great photos at Wired.com to this review:

*Chicks With Guns Photo Book Doesn???t Disappoint*

 By Jakob Schiller Email Author
 October 26, 2011  | 


Lindsay McCrum's new photo book Chicks With Guns is just what you think it is: Striking portraits of women with their firearms. What's unexpected, however, is the impact of the photos as a collection.

If viewers don't personally know one of these gun-toters, McCrum hopes the book serves as an introduction to a growing community of 15 to 20 million women in the U.S. who own and use guns.

???Usually women with guns are turned into comic book characters ??? Lara Croft, Kill Bill ??? and I thought it would be fascinating to find out who the real women in our country are who own guns,??? she says.

After three years and 280 photo shoots, McCrum chose 80 compelling and thoughtful frames for her book. Each photo is accompanied by quotes from the subjects about their history or feelings on gun ownership.

For McCrum, Chicks With Guns is not an attempt to enter the ideological debate about guns. Instead, she says she tried to harness the visceral power of photography to provide a more rounded, honest picture of what women gun owners look like today.

Some of the frames in the book are certainly what one would expect ??? a policewoman with her shotgun, a woman in a cowboy hat in front of a picturesque Western backdrop. Others are more surprising.

In one picture, a woman holds her naked three-year-old son in her left hand and her grandfather???s shotgun in her right. In another, an older woman stands in the middle of her living room surrounded by dolls and teddy bears (above).

???I???m not in the judgment business and the photographs are not policy, nor are they advocacy,??? McCrum says. ???I wasn???t interested in glorify anyone or vilifying anyone.???

Regardless of where she stands, McCrum???s portraits of this community seem have resonated with a much broader public. The book sold out on Amazon its first day and McCrum has been busy signing books and dealing with media requests from places as far afield as Field and Stream and Juxtapoz Magazine.

McCrum says all the attention has been humbling and surprising, but ultimately values the access and relationships the book allowed for.

???All these women were extraordinary, they were excited and generous with their time, and I cannot tell you how many told me that were so happy to be seen and heard,??? she says.

"I bought my gun ??? the one in the photograph ??? at the local gun store in Merced, California. It???s a .38 titanium revolver made by Taurus. My hands are not strong enough to pull certain guns back, so I need a revolver. It???s very lightweight and easy to use.... When I was mayor, I couldn???t practice as often as I wanted to, but now that I???m no longer mayor I go a lot more often. The girls usually go on Tuesday nights. We go to our local gun range, hook up our targets, and then all go down and see who???s the best shot."

Story and pics:

Chicks With Guns Photo Book Doesn’t Disappoint | Raw File | Wired.com


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## Witmaster (Nov 28, 2011)

> =Will Brink;2569749]???Usually women with guns are turned into comic book characters ??? Lara Croft, Kill Bill ??? and I thought it would be fascinating to find out who the real women in our country are who own guns,??? she says.





> > This is awesome!! I hope many women read this and take interest.
> >
> > My wife used to LOATH handguns... despised them. She was a card=carrying subscriber to the school of thought that taught "all guns were evil".
> >
> > ...


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## Boomer182 (Nov 28, 2011)

I recently got my CHL, and I own a Tarus Millennium CC 9mm, a Ruger CC 9mm and a 12 gauge.


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