# protein overloading modified maint????



## Ben dur (Oct 16, 2008)

lets just say i wanted to tansition into a diet that included 
420+g protein
90g fat
100g carb

alot of this fat would be from fish oil, others from meat
and almost all of the carbs would be from fruits and veggies, 
with only 40-50g being from pre/post workout shakes
--old fashion oats pre workout
--dextrose post wo

i would be including multi V

sources of protein would be
chicken
tuna
salmon
whey
beef
cottage cheese
eggs

my question is
with this diet running around 3200 cal a day
would i see any change in body composition?
would there be any negative effects of such low carb intake?


my maint seems to be in this range (2800-3000)
but usually i consume more carbs and less protein


im 20
175
5'11"
8% on calipers 10% on analysis as of today

i work out 4 times a week
45-55mins per workout
my weekend include alot of cardio
i get at least 8 hours of sleep a night
im taking a ZMA
i take creatine post workout only, only on lifting days


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## Built (Oct 16, 2008)

Please buy and read this before you even THINK of doing what you're considering.

store


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## Ben dur (Oct 16, 2008)

i was just wondering...

what is wrong with this diet?
it covers all the basic requirements
and past that it just concentrates of protein as the main source of calories, totaling a caloric surplus


i take from your response that this would be a bad idea...


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## Built (Oct 16, 2008)

Nope - the IDEA is good. You need to know how to properly apply it.


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## Ben dur (Oct 16, 2008)

i have no desire to loose weight either btw


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## Ben dur (Oct 16, 2008)

ok

and im assuming your referring to the "protein book"


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## Built (Oct 16, 2008)

No. 

I linked to the rapid fat loss book. That's because I meant the rapid fat loss book. 

However, knowing that it's recomp and not weight loss you're after, may I suggest UD2.0?

store


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## Ben dur (Oct 16, 2008)

alright...

i got it
so this diet would not be relevant to someone considering a clean bulk


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## Built (Oct 17, 2008)

Which diet would not be relevant on a clean bulk - PSMF, UD2.0, or your post?

Regardless, go with UD2.0 if you're after recomposition - which is, I think, what you mean by "clean bulk", yes?


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## Ben dur (Oct 17, 2008)

yes

i was looking for
adding say
5-10 pounds
and hopefully no/very little bodyfat
depending on how much body fat would determine the length of said "bulk"


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## P-funk (Oct 17, 2008)

if you want to add muscle and no/very little body fat, start using steroids.

otherwise, suck it up and work your ass  off  and gain some body fat and muscle like the rest of us.

Hormones in your body wont let you gain muscle without gaining some fat.  I believe it partially has to do with the interplay between letpin and aMPK.


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## Ben dur (Oct 17, 2008)

so going low carb, ultra high protein would still cause fat storage?

or would there be no positive effects at all?


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## Ben dur (Oct 17, 2008)

btw

im just going to add in 

50g of protein
50g of carbs
10 g of fat

to my existing maintenance/slight surplus diet

thats about 450 additional cals
would this be sufficient?


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## bigsahm21 (Oct 17, 2008)

Bottom line, there's no universal answer to that question.  Everyone's body/metabolism is different.  The only real way to find out if something is going to work FOR YOU is to try it out and see for yourself.


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## P-funk (Oct 17, 2008)

Ben dur said:


> so going low carb, ultra high protein would still cause fat storage?
> 
> or would there be no positive effects at all?



abundance of calories cause weight gain.  you can eat all the protein you want..but if you eat more than you burn, you will gain weight.


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## Ben dur (Oct 17, 2008)

P-funk said:


> abundance of calories cause weight gain.  you can eat all the protein you want..but if you eat more than you burn, you will gain weight.




i assume that would include approximately the same amount of fat either way (extremely high protein vs high protein and high carbs)


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## P-funk (Oct 17, 2008)

huh?


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## danzik17 (Oct 17, 2008)

Ben dur said:


> i assume that would include approximately the same amount of fat either way (extremely high protein vs high protein and high carbs)



If you're eating 3000 calories in protein or 3000 calories in carbs, it's still 3000 calories.  It makes no difference in how much fat you'll gain.

Nutrients are a different matter, but the overall effect is the same.


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## largepkg (Oct 18, 2008)

Correct me if I'm wrong here. While I understand calories in/out determine weight gain/loss, either muscle or fat aren't some calories processed differently by the body? Such as simple carbs vs protein vs fat? Is it really as simple as eat whatever form of calories as long as there's sufficient protein and you'll gain muscle and fat?

Obviously with the understanding that your workouts are in check.


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## Ben dur (Oct 18, 2008)

i dont know if i buy the whole argument as simple as cal in cal out

for example

300g of carbs from brown rice in one day
vs
300g of carbs from dextrose in one day

will certainly have complete different effects on blood glucose levels
and therefor have complete different effects on the storage of fat

on the other hand i do understand how a 1000cal surplus will cause fat storage whether it be fats proteins or carbs


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## Witchblade (Oct 18, 2008)

Ben dur said:


> i dont know if i buy the whole argument as simple as cal in cal out
> 
> for example
> 
> ...


It's energy. Energy doesn't just disappear or appear out of nowhere. 

Hormonal and thermogenic effects on fat storage are minimal.


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## Ben dur (Oct 18, 2008)

why do you keep taking everything i say as thermogenics?

high GI causes an insulin spike and fat storage

low GI is more apt to be used as energy over a longer period of time

i didnt say it had any effect on the matabolism


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## tucker01 (Oct 18, 2008)

Ben dur said:


> why do you keep taking everything i say as thermogenics?
> 
> high GI causes an insulin spike and fat storage
> 
> ...



cause GI has very little value in the terms of a meal


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## Ben dur (Oct 18, 2008)

so choosing brown rice over the same amount of calories from table sugar would have no benifets?


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## tucker01 (Oct 18, 2008)

nutrients sure. hunger satisfaction sure.


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## Ben dur (Oct 18, 2008)

but as far as subcutaneous fat storage, no difference?


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## Witchblade (Oct 18, 2008)

Ben dur said:


> why do you keep taking everything i say as thermogenics?


Reread what I said, specifically the word 'hormonal'.


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## xfile384 (Oct 20, 2008)

Ben dur said:


> lets just say i wanted to tansition into a diet that included
> 420+g protein
> 90g fat
> 100g carb
> ...



lol, why do you want so much protein? Excess protein is stored as fat...You need carbs, nothing is wrong with them. You don't really need to be so specific and over analyze everything. Just make sure your taking in a good amount of protein and eat what you want. Just watch the calories. 1 pound of fat is 3500 calories. So, if you average eating 500 calories over your Maintenance a day, you would gain 1 pound of fat in a week. It works the same way with weight loss...500 calories less a day, you would lose 1 pound of fat in a week. Weight loss and weight gain takes time. If you feel like having 2 snickers in one day (about 500 calories), go for it. Just make sure you have a smaller dinner, or lunch, etc...

By the way, don't waste your money on these protein shakes/powder...If your eating correctly with a balanced meal, you don't need additional protein. The protein from foods is *WAY* better and stays in your body longer. It allows the protein to stay in your body longer and mix with other proteins your eating throughout the day, giving you a full supply of necessary amino acids and necessary proteins...Also, you need to be aware that WHEN YOU EAT fish, chicken, beef, you are EATING MUSCLE! Muscle that is already made up of and contains all the necessary proteins and amino acids. *So, you don't need to take in any additional amino acids in the form of pills and you definitely don't need to take any additional amino acids in the form of powdered proteins*... Have a well balanced meal and worry about LIFTING WEIGHTS, that causes muscle growth.


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## Ben dur (Oct 20, 2008)

-__-


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## Built (Oct 21, 2008)

xfile384 said:


> lol, why do you want so much protein? Excess protein is stored as fat...


I'm not entirely clear on what you mean here. Do you mean excess protein causing a caloric surplus, or excess protein at maintenance calories? 


xfile384 said:


> You need carbs,


No you don't. But for a normal, healthy young male on a bulk, they surely will help!


xfile384 said:


> nothing is wrong with them. You don't really need to be so specific and over analyze everything.


Agreed. 


xfile384 said:


> Just make sure your taking in a good amount of protein and eat what you want. Just watch the calories. 1 pound of fat is 3500 calories. So, if you average eating 500 calories over your Maintenance a day, you would gain 1 pound of fat in a week.


You _could _gain a pound of fat a week. Or you could gain some fat and some muscle. Depends on a few things surrounding the anabolic response. 


xfile384 said:


> It works the same way with weight loss...500 calories less a day, you would lose 1 pound of fat in a week.


You COULD lose 1 pound of fat. Or you could lose about 6 lbs of muscle - a pound of muscle tissue holds about 500-600 calories. 



xfile384 said:


> Weight loss and weight gain takes time. If you feel like having 2 snickers in one day (about 500 calories), go for it. Just make sure you have a smaller dinner, or lunch, etc...
> 
> By the way, don't waste your money on these protein shakes/powder...If your eating correctly with a balanced meal, you don't need additional protein.


Nope. You don't need it. 


xfile384 said:


> The protein from foods is *WAY* better and stays in your body longer.





xfile384 said:


> It allows the protein to stay in your body longer


?


xfile384 said:


> and mix with other proteins your eating throughout the day,


?


xfile384 said:


> giving you a full supply of necessary amino acids and necessary proteins...Also, you need to be aware that WHEN YOU EAT fish, chicken, beef, you are EATING MUSCLE! Muscle that is already made up of and contains all the necessary proteins and amino acids. *So, you don't need to take in any additional amino acids in the form of pills and you definitely don't need to take any additional amino acids in the form of powdered proteins*...


Protein powder is a very inexpensive way to boost your protein intake. It's a lot cheaper than meat!


xfile384 said:


> Have a well balanced meal and worry about LIFTING WEIGHTS, that causes muscle growth.


Only in a surplus.


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## Merkaba (Oct 21, 2008)

Oh God Thank you Built!  I was afraid I was gonna have to do that!  That post by x file was really about to make me have a goddam aneurysm.  

Seriously....thanks alot


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## Merkaba (Oct 21, 2008)

.....god


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## Ben dur (Oct 21, 2008)

yeah i wasnt even gunna try...

i just gave em' the straight face (  -__-  )


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## Skib (Oct 21, 2008)

420+ g of protein for somebody who weighs 175lb just seems ridiculous to me


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## Ben dur (Oct 21, 2008)

wouldnt sound ridiculous if i was on roids now would it?



im not btw
nor will i ever be


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## xfile384 (Oct 22, 2008)

Skib said:


> 420+ g of protein for somebody who weighs 175lb just seems ridiculous to me



Agreed. Not only is it ridiculous, it's stupid...

What i said makes sense, but it's hard to explain through typing. You can go back and forth on this subject, but the fact is that everyone is different. Go ahead and follow all your protein ideas...If your getting 150g of protein a day through food, that is plenty. This is my brothers account and i posted the last long response. I follow my plan and i'm 5'8 155, bench 225 and have abs that show from morning to night. I don't take additional protein and i eat what i want...Train hard and you'll achieve your goals. It's simple. 

Like i said, everybody is different. I just think being so specific and worrying about when to eat and when to take in 420g of protein is stupid...It seems like people are stressing out over things that don't matter....Do what you want and I'll continue to have low body fat, get bigger, and eat what i want with my logic...Then, i'll continue to come on this site and watch the same people talk about how they aren't getting anywhere. How ironic? Or maybe they'll say, i weigh 145 and gained 5 lbs this week! Then it's 15lbs. Then, they realize they've gained a little muscle, but a lot of fat!! Because they think lifting 3 times a week and 4000 calories a day is smart. 

So, whoever felt like critiquing every little thing i said, good for you bro.  What i said was right. It can go different ways, yes. (depending on how hard you train and eating a sufficient amount of food) But, it does make sense. I wouldn't look the way i do if it didn't. What do you look like? 5'10 235? I mean, it all just depends what you want...If those are your abs in the picture, good for you. You have a little bit of a nicer pack than me. If it isn't you, then your living in a dream world hoping that following this protein plan with minimal carbs gets you somewhere...

To the poster. Good luck with all the protein. Take a picture now and 3 months from now. I'm dieing to see your results...

I'll be making my account today, so i can stay off my brothers name.


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## xfile384 (Oct 22, 2008)

Check out this site. Watch these videos about your questions. Maybe this will help shine the light on some of your questions...Take it from someone who specializes in the field...Not he said she said...

Body Performance TV


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## xfile384 (Oct 22, 2008)

Built said:


> I'm not entirely clear on what you mean here. Do you mean excess protein causing a caloric surplus, or excess protein at maintenance calories?



Let me help you out. 

Is a caloric surplus necessary? To gain weight, yes. Do you really need an extravagant amount of calories...? No. If your caloric surplus is too large, a lot of the weight that you gain will be *body-fat weight*. Therefore adjust your food intake so that you gain weight slowly (1/2 pound a week on average, say) to keep your body-fat gain low.

*How protein is stored as fat. *

The food enters your mouth:

Saliva contains enzymes that break any starch in the food down to sugar.

This, along with any fat and water in the food, travel to the stomach, which churns them up.

Pepsin (an enzyme that digests protein) and hydrochloric acid further break down the food, turning it into a substance called chyme.

The mixture enters the duodenum, (the place where the gall bladder secretes its bile).

This bile dissolves the fat in water, thinning it out and making it easier to absorb.

Enzymes from the pancreas enter the duodenum and further break down the sugar, fat and protein.

Now everything is dissolved and is in fluid form, so it is absorbed through the lining of the small bowel. Fat, sugar and protein wave good-bye to each other and go their separate ways. 

*What happens to the PROTEIN*

It is broken down into building blocks known as peptides.

Then, it is further broken down and it becomes amino acids.

The amino acids are absorbed through the small intestine's lining and enter the blood stream.

From here, some of the amino acids build the body's protein stores.

Excess amino acids are converted to *fats* and sugars and follow the paths described above.

This is such a simple concept, but many people still believe that consuming lots and lots of protein will put muscle on their bones. *Even excess protein turns to fat. *


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## Ben dur (Oct 22, 2008)

xfile384 said:


> Agreed. Not only is it ridiculous, it's stupid...
> 
> What i said makes sense, but it's hard to explain through typing. You can go back and forth on this subject, but the fact is that everyone is different. Go ahead and follow all your protein ideas...If your getting 150g of protein a day through food, that is plenty. This is my brothers account and i posted the last long response. I follow my plan and i'm 5'8 155, bench 225 and have abs that show from morning to night. I don't take additional protein and i eat what i want...Train hard and you'll achieve your goals. It's simple.
> 
> ...






if you were referring to my picture...

those are indeed mine

follow the link to myspace and youll see the same and more pics there

i dont eat 4000 cal a day either btw..
i eat 2700

200g of protein min

and although a lot of what you said strikes me as complete bullshit
i do agree that eating 4000cal a day and working out 3 times a week is stupid


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## Merkaba (Oct 22, 2008)

Ben dur said:


> if you were referring to my picture...
> 
> those are indeed mine



You wish!  



xfile384 said:


> Let me help you out.
> 
> Is a caloric surplus necessary? To gain weight, yes. Do you really need an extravagant amount of calories...? No. If your caloric surplus is too large, a lot of the weight that you gain will be *body-fat weight*. Therefore adjust your food intake so that you gain weight slowly (1/2 pound a week on average, say) to keep your body-fat gain low.
> 
> ...


Well the abs you're referring to belong to a girl.  

First, you seem to be developing a chip on your shoulder. This forum is not like alot of other forums as in we actually have knowledge abundant here.  Your digestion model is good for an 8th grade pop quiz.  That's about it.  Its too bad you wrote a dissertation about digestion when noone was really concerned about digestion.   Now write another with regards to caloric maintenance so you can understand body composition and start to get an elementary grasp for whats known as partitioning.  

   I think Built is usually pretty careful about addressing individual issues, separately.  That's why she split up your comments,  because, as usual, most people tend to lump things into one or two directions, black or white, like you're still doing.  Obviously this bothered you, having someone tell you you weren't accurate on one or two comments?....I think she agreed with one or two of your comments so don't get your panties in a wad.

Does the average joe wanting to gain mass need 400 or 300 grams of protein?  Probably not.  
Most research suggests that running a decent surplus in amino's keeps you from wasting time if youre in the gym busting your ass, on a repeated basis. Not if you're laying around or doing mediocre gym visits.  Given the inefficiencies of digestion we overcompensate with the protein, try to keep fiber and water high to lessen ill effects on the liver and intestines.  However one still needs to be careful of their total caloric intake in regards to what they wish to accomplish, also in regards to safety and efficiency.  

Getting a large amount of calories from protein helps to assure you're not overeating fats and carbs. This is also why high protein is suggested because the bottom line is that a surplus of CALORIES is a greater determinant of metabolic pathways as opposed to a surplus of PROTEIN.  This is what you can't seem to come to grips with.   If you eat 400 or 10 grams of protein and still come in 500 calories under your maintenance then you're on your way to burning fat.  but whats happening to your lean body mass?  Eat 10 or 400 grams of protein come in over your maintenance and you're gonna store fat. 
*
To sum up, you're wrong.*


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## Ben dur (Oct 22, 2008)

ok yeah... i missed the whole quote from built...

and i feel like a fucking idiot


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## Ben dur (Oct 22, 2008)

Merkaba said:


> Getting a large amount of calories from protein helps to assure you're not overeating fats and carbs. This is also why high protein is suggested because the bottom line is that a surplus of CALORIES is a greater determinant of metabolic pathways as opposed to a surplus of PROTEIN.  This is what you can't seem to come to grips with.   If you eat 400 or 10 grams of protein and still come in 500 calories under your maintenance then you're on your way to burning fat.  but whats happening to your lean body mass?  Eat 10 or 400 grams of protein come in over your maintenance and you're gonna store fat.
> *
> To sum up, you're wrong.*



so in regard to the original thread...

the diet would work for gaining muscle given it is over maint...
but it wouldnt necessarily be better than say 200-250g of protein (otherwise over maint.)...

and wouldnt nexessarily keep me any leaner


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## xfile384 (Oct 22, 2008)

Merkaba said:


> You wish!
> 
> 
> Well the abs you're referring to belong to a girl.
> ...



Um, are you alright? From the last post you quoted me on was i confrontational? I don't remember ever putting anyone down. Your the one saying i have abs from a girl and elementary education, cool guy...

You can be in shape and look good at my weight and height. Do you think this guy looks like he had a body from a girl? He has my same weight and height. UFC® : Ultimate Fighting Championship® And don't say it's different, because it's not. Sure, we train different, but are the same size...I never insulted you, so i don't appreciate you insulting me. 

I was never bothered by what built said. I was merely explaining that excess protein for the average person who works out 3-5 times a week is unnecessary. (which it is and you agreed) 

*"If you eat 400 or 10 grams of protein and still come in 500 calories under your maintenance then you're on your way to burning fat.  but whats happening to your lean body mass?  Eat 10 or 400 grams of protein come in over your maintenance and you're gonna store fat."*

Didn't i already explain this? No kidding...It doesn't matter what you eat. If you go over you caloric maintenance, you will gain weight...If your under, you will lose weight. You act like i don't agree with that?

I know what caloric maintenance is bro, thanks...Your BMR is how many calories your body burns with you doing nothing...(at rest essentially) Maintenance has to do with each individual persons daily activity. (lets assume a 1600 BMR) So, if you have a basic job not to strenuous, your maintenance would be about 2100. Great. You go 300-500 over that everyday and you will gain weight...You go 300-500 under and you will lose weight. Now, on workout days that daily maintenance will change. Lets assume you lift weights for 40mins. Well, that's about 250 calories. Putting your caloric maintenance at 2350. So, if you still continue to go 300-500 over this, you will gain weight...Cardio burns more calories than working out, but it's not like we're burning 800 calories per workout session. 2 subway cookies generally will put all the calories you burned off back on your body...

This is assuming a normal person working out 3-5 times a week. Sure, if your a body builder, or cross country runner your going to burn a lot more calories a day! But generally this is not the case and from what the original poster was saying, he is not a professional body builder, or in some type of triathlon....

I'm still not sure why you came off so rude...Sorry if i somehow insulted you? I was just putting in input that i know. What I've learned from school and my experiences. I've taken plenty of college classes and finished Nutrition of science. Maybe that means nothing to you, but I'm not talking out of my a$$...This is how the body works...

To the original poster that said i was full of sh*t. If you really think that my description about how the body digest food and takes in protein is incorrect, you really need to read a book...I'm not being mean, I'm just being serious. If you don't agree with that, you really don't know what your talking about. Hence taking 420g of protein...


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## FishOrCutBait (Oct 22, 2008)

xfile384 said:


> Your the one saying i have abs from a girl and elementary education, cool guy...



The abs he was referring to belong to Built, who is a woman.

Also, he was saying that you are speaking to the group of us as if we are elementary schoolers and you are lecturing us on digestion.

Drop the injured attitude dude, nobody is looking to hurt your feelings.


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## Built (Oct 22, 2008)

xfile384, could I trouble you to address a couple of the questions I actually asked you? We'll leave post-prandial metabolism for now. I just want to know this:

1. Are you suggesting excess protein while eating at maintenance calories will cause fat gain? In other words, suppose 3000 calories a day is your maintenance, and you happen to personally need 200g protein per day. If you consume 400g of protein while continuing to consume 3000 calories a day, are you suggesting you'll gain fat? 

2. On what do you base your assertion that protein from powder is somehow handled differently in the body than protein from other sources? I ask this academically, since I have no trouble whatsoever getting in 200g+ daily. 

PS thanks for the props on my abs! 

I was 42 in that shot - and in this one, my profile pic. I fixed my diet and my training and it really paid off!  I had to drop my carbs tremendously, especially at first due to insulin resistance, but then, being female (you might already know that women are insulin-resistant relative to most men; we don't tend to metabolize carbohydrate very well and eating too little protein and too much carb makes it hard to control appetite), almost forty and hovering around 40% bodyfat when I started this game, insulin was the LAST thing I needed to overstimulate!

I like my protein at close to 2g/lb LBM, personally, but mostly that's for comfort: when my protein goes too low, I have too much trouble controlling my appetite. I don't use protein powder either - I prefer to chew what little food I get to eat. Careful calorie-control is key in order for me to maintain my conditioning. I'll be damned if I drink my protein - steak is just so much tastier!

I look forward to your reply. Bro.


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## Merkaba (Oct 22, 2008)

xfile384 said:


> Um, are you alright? From the last post you quoted me on was i confrontational? I don't remember ever putting anyone down. Your the one saying i have abs from a girl and elementary education, cool guy...
> 
> You can be in shape and look good at my weight and height. Do you think this guy looks like he had a body from a girl? He has my same weight and height. UFCï¿½ : Ultimate Fighting Championshipï¿½ And don't say it's different, because it's not. Sure, we train different, but are the same size...I never insulted you, so i don't appreciate you insulting me.
> 
> ...



Again, get 'em out of a wad first! Then reread.  You were referring to built in an earlier post, I was telling you that the person you or your brother or mom's uncle or whoever is on the account now is referring to was a woman, not a "bro"

Just a side note, I did have a giggle as to how you had a UFC "similar stat holder" in the clip and ready to load.  I didnt say anything about height and weight as that is of no concern to anyone with a brain.  I guess you're a fan of whoever it was cause I didn't even click the link.  To each its own. 

I wont comment on how many times I've seen someone post under someone else's account, get corrected then say, oh that was my {insert sibling or family member here}  

As far as insults go : 





			
				xfile384 said:
			
		

> ....Do what you want and I'll continue to have low body fat, get bigger, and eat what i want with my logic...Then, i'll continue to come on this site and watch the same people talk about how they aren't getting anywhere. How ironic? Or maybe they'll say, i weigh 145 and gained 5 lbs this week! Then it's 15lbs. Then, they realize they've gained a little muscle, but a lot of fat!! Because they think lifting 3 times a week and 4000 calories a day is smart.


Sounds like shlt talking to me.  I talk alot of it so i know it when I see it.  Its pretty common on forums.  Its easy to spot. This and your "let me tell you how this goes blah blah digestion" queef you let out.   As FishorCutbait said noone wants to hear you you lecture, I see it as condescending obviously I'm not the only one.  Maybe I take it more personal than others, so be it.  If you were to say these same things to my face,  I'd tell you to effoff.   400 grams of protein may not be needed but If I was doing Psmf or a cut it wouldn't be a "stupid" idea or a need for a  There are always exceptions but I usually don't talk real shlt unless in return....although I am trying to work on not immediately reaching in the bag for a good one when someone comes on asking about magical cures.  It also just depends on the stars and the day.  

You were wrong because you're still making it sound like alot of protein automatically makes you store it as fat.  You're just flat out talking about the wrong things you need to be talking about in order to make your point, sorry!  At the end of your, unfortunately utterly useless diatribe(sorry, but you did it, not me and well it was useless you'll agree?) you said: 





			
				xfile384 said:
			
		

> This is such a simple concept, but many people still believe that consuming lots and lots of protein will put muscle on their bones. *Even excess protein turns to fat*.


This is just as wrong as the media fueled "fat causes fat" crap.  Nothing automatically happens to any "excess" mac.  Regardless of how its digested.


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## xfile384 (Oct 23, 2008)

Merkaba said:


> Again, get 'em out of a wad first! Then reread.  You were referring to built in an earlier post, I was telling you that the person you or your brother or mom's uncle or whoever is on the account now is referring to was a woman, not a "bro"
> 
> Just a side note, I did have a giggle as to how you had a UFC "similar stat holder" in the clip and ready to load.  I didnt say anything about height and weight as that is of no concern to anyone with a brain.  I guess you're a fan of whoever it was cause I didn't even click the link.  To each its own.
> 
> ...




I'm not going to lie, i didn't really read anything you just posted, lol. Your one of those people who will always think they are right and continue this for ever...Cool... I'm done talking to you. If you eat excess protein over your maintenance, it will store as fat. I never said that 420g of protein will just be stored as fat immediately. 420g of protein is a typical persons BMR, so most likely you will over eat...You need fat in your diet and that's 9 calories per gram, so it would be hard to not go over your maintenance with this logic. Also, i read the beginning of your arrogant post and noticed you quoted me saying i was being sarcastic/confrontational. That had nothing to do with our discussion. I was referring to the your original quote from me...(which is where it started. You started it all) So, thanks for not making a point? Have a nice day, I'll reply respectively to built, because she actually made a mature post without trying to be cool on the internet...


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## Merkaba (Oct 23, 2008)

xfile384 said:


> I'm not going to lie, i didn't really read anything you just posted, lol. Your one of those people who will always think they are right and continue this for ever...Cool... I'm done talking to you. If you eat excess protein over your maintenance, it will store as fat. I never said that 420g of protein will just be stored as fat immediately. 420g of protein is a typical persons BMR, so most likely you will over eat...You need fat in your diet and that's 9 calories per gram, so it would be hard to not go over your maintenance with this logic. Also, i read the beginning of your arrogant post and noticed you quoted me saying i was being sarcastic/confrontational. That had nothing to do with our discussion. I was referring to the your original quote from me...(which is where it started. You started it all) So, thanks for not making a point? Have a nice day, I'll reply respectively to built, because she actually made a mature post without trying to be cool on the internet...



I know and thats your problem. YOU DON'T FUCKING READ!
So thanks for proving your inadequacy 

but I know you're reading this.

How about you address the issues.  Where was I wrong at? 

I said you just can't make statements like excess protein will be stored as fat.  You can never just make a statement like that and expect it to fly. 

Trying to be cool on the net?  See my previous post about your own comments.  
"you started it all" ok you feeling like a victim now? if you want me to take the rap, sure.  I, screen name Merkaba started it all!  I started it all after someone you or your brother or sister, made a statement full of assumptions and misrepresented information.  I don't know everything and I write based on that and I'll never act like I know everything, but you've been making statements about protein and digestion and having talked about metabolics.  Dude this has happened plenty of times.  Someone comes on thinking they know something but lack at least the skills to get it across, if not a whole chunk of knowledge as to the facts.  


Built is nicer than me.  She's basically asking the same question's, nicer, because you know why?  as I said before, you're not talking about what you need to talk about to make your point.  

"I'm ignoring you now"...boohoo.  
sounds like you're "copping out" because someone jumped your shlt.  Whats new on a forum though huh?  You wanna talk shlt but you can't take it.

Ahh yes, if you eat excess protein over your maintenance...Youre getting closer.  Care to tell us why you didnt stress this to begin with? The first thing we tell people is count your calories. This is all you needed to say. You made a diatribe called how protein is stored as fat and made no mention of metabolics. You can't make that statement alone then say see the other post where I said a surplus or deficit is needed.
I guess my point is that you need to clean it up.


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## xfile384 (Oct 23, 2008)

Built said:


> xfile384, could I trouble you to address a couple of the questions I actually asked you? We'll leave post-prandial metabolism for now. I just want to know this:
> 
> 1. Are you suggesting excess protein while eating at maintenance calories will cause fat gain? In other words, suppose 3000 calories a day is your maintenance, and you happen to personally need 200g protein per day. If you consume 400g of protein while continuing to consume 3000 calories a day, are you suggesting you'll gain fat?
> 
> ...



I agree that protein is a good substitute for carbs and does stop cravings. More often, the body converts proteins and fats into carbohydrates, which are then stored as fat. Therefore, it makes perfect sense why someone should feel tired not taking in an adequate amount of protein, if they are not eating carbohydrates...

Also, i don't understand why we would assume someone needs 200g of protein? To me, this should never be the case...The body can only make about 1 pound of muscle per week. Any other weight would be fat or water...One pound of muscle is about 100g. So, you would only need to take in an additional 100g more protein than what you normally consume. Hence, why i don't understand people want to take in so much protein? Craving reasons maybe? Just eat fiber...Your supposed to have vegetables anyway. They are low calorie and will keep you from going over your maintenance. Calories are fattening, not carbs. That's why i say, eat what you want in moderation...

Certain protein powders are better than others at encouraging healing and trauma recovery, and all protein powders digest and absorb differently into the body. Protein unused by the body is excreted of course, as waste...

One documented setback to whey protein is its quick digestion and absorption into the bloodstream, resulting in many of its health enhancing qualities being destroyed by the liver before benefiting muscle tissue...For this reason, protein powders made exclusively with whey protein may do nothing to stop catabolism...Which is why i prefer eating meats, chicken, fish over protein shakes. There are whey protein powders available, however, with delivery systems specifically designed to slow the absorption of whey protein and deliver more of its benefits to muscle. 

Casein protein powder digests slowly which, before bedtime and between meals, can deliver a steady supply of amino acids needed to stop muscles from breaking down during long periods of physical rest. Whey protein powder is more soluble in liquid, which makes it easier to mix with liquids and digest as a beverage. Which makes it perfect for before and after workouts when it's crucial for amino acids to flow steadily to muscles for strength and recovery.

I'm with you though. I would much rather have a steak over any of this. I'm not saying protein powder is bad, it just seems like a waste of time. Unless you just don't have time to eat...Then, it would make sense to take some. But like you said, you have no problem eating 200g of protein daily and neither would I.


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## xfile384 (Oct 23, 2008)

Merkaba said:


> I know and thats your problem. YOU DON'T FUCKING READ YOU MORON!
> 
> but I know you're reading this.
> 
> ...


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## MCx2 (Oct 23, 2008)




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## Merkaba (Oct 23, 2008)

Told ya!


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## Merkaba (Oct 23, 2008)

ReproMan said:


>



Where's the cherry coke?
Show's over, he's, she's, they're,etc.  throwing in the proverbial towel.  Nothing to see here folks...move along...move along


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## MCx2 (Oct 23, 2008)

Merkaba said:


> Where's the cherry coke?



I replaced it with a protein shake.


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## Merkaba (Oct 23, 2008)

xfile384 said:


> I follow my plan and i'm 5'8 155, bench 225 and have abs that show from morning to night.


 I must have missed this!  I'm sorry xfile. You're right.  Whatever you're doing we all need to do it!  I mean you bench 225.  Who cares about anything else?  I'm sorry about all of this man!  


I'm sorry but I just had to bring up the "I bench x amount".  Its almost a forum joke.  Its such a wonderful way to make a point, the bench amount  Seriously....  

no seriously.  
hence my signature....

Well we know its a guy posting that time.    aww man I'm really gonna have to stop.


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## Merkaba (Oct 23, 2008)

ReproMan said:


> I replaced it with a protein shake.




Sux for you.  Its immediately stored as fat.  Should've went with the simple sugar I guess!


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## Ben dur (Oct 23, 2008)

i can bench press 225
its not so impressive

and is really an insignificant number in comparison to many

then again
i prefer dumbbells

maybe i should drink more soda and eat more french fries before i do my chest workout

and apparently if i cut down on protein, i could lean out a bit...


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## MCx2 (Oct 23, 2008)

Merkaba said:


> Sux for you.  Its immediately stored as fat.  Should've went with the simple sugar I guess!





That explains EVERYTHING!!!


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## Ben dur (Oct 23, 2008)

rarely is the question asked...

are?
is our children learning?


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## xfile384 (Oct 23, 2008)

Ben dur said:


> i can bench press 225
> its not so impressive
> 
> and is really an insignificant number in comparison to many
> ...



Benching 225 at my weight is great...(especially for someone not trying to get big) I'm not trying to bench a lot, just trying to stay cut. Did i ever imply i was on a bulk? I enjoy the beach cut look. I can max out 100lbs over my body weight and their is nothing wrong with that. It impresses me and that's what matters. I'll continue to stay this way, because i have no intentions of becoming bigger. I never meant, or said that benching 225 was some god weight...

"Apparently," you still haven't read that book. Read my long post and learn from it. Sure, you could eat french fries and lean out. Why couldn't you? Like your butt buddy said, "eat 10 or 400 grams of protein come in over your maintenance and you're gonna store fat." (he had terrible grammar here, but just keeping the quote. I guess all that protein is going straight to his muscle and definitely not to his brain) Same goes for french fries, or any other food. If you eat under your maintenance, you will lose weight. Still not grasping?

Congrats on benching 225, but you also weigh more than me and are a lot more serious about getting bigger...I'm not the one taking in so much protein, yet i can do the same weight as you and weigh less? Hmm

Keep trying to challenge me macho body builder "Merka". It's pathetic how your trying to get me to attack you, because you feel like you haven't proven yourself enough. I don't care what you say in response, because you know that I know what i'm talking about. You just want to fight back and forth out of boredom, i hope? Unless all you do is workout and type on muscle forums picking on people? Cool?  

Your so awesome man. I really look up to you.


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## Built (Oct 23, 2008)

xfile384 said:


> I agree that protein is a good substitute for carbs and does stop cravings. More often, the body converts proteins and fats into carbohydrates, which are then stored as fat. Therefore, it makes perfect sense why someone should feel tired not taking in an adequate amount of protein, if they are not eating carbohydrates...


Hmmm... I'm not at all sure of what you're getting at here. I never got tired on low carbs. I got really tired on HIGH carbs, but never on low. 


xfile384 said:


> Also, i don't understand why we would assume someone needs 200g of protein?


It was just a figure. I could have said "x" grams of protein. 



xfile384 said:


> To me, this should never be the case...The body can only make about 1 pound of muscle per week.


It can't even make that. Lyle McDonald contends the most an unassisted male can expect to make is about two pounds a month. For a woman, about half that, if she's lucky. In my experience, with DEXAs taken at the end of a cut and the end of a bulk, I put on barely a third of a pound of muscle per month, but then, I'm old, female, and already fairly-well developed. 


xfile384 said:


> Any other weight would be fat or water...One pound of muscle is about 100g. So, you would only need to take in an additional 100g more protein than what you normally consume. Hence, why i don't understand people want to take in so much protein?



To remain nitrogen positive under stress
To suppress appetite, because post prandial CCK is highest with protein, lowest with carbohydrate
To minimize the insulin response, thus helping to control systemic inflammation
Because meat is murder. Tasty, tasty murder. ;D



xfile384 said:


> Craving reasons maybe? Just eat fiber...Your supposed to have vegetables anyway.


With regard to satiety, this depends on the type of fibre. Postprandial satiety also depends on your insulin sensitivity - some of us (read: older people, women, fatties or former fatties) have very lousy insulin sensitivity. Protein helps with satiety. Carbs make postprandial satiety worse, not better. 


xfile384 said:


> They are low calorie and will keep you from going over your maintenance.



NOTHING keeps me from going over maintenance - unless I weigh my food and preplan my days. Sadly. 



xfile384 said:


> Calories are fattening, not carbs. That's why i say, eat what you want in moderation...


Carbs are not fattening
Fat is not fattening
Protein is not fattening

But... carbs surely can make a body hungry! If you want to keep your appetite under control, you _might _not want to load up on the carbs, depending on how you happen to handle 'em. 


xfile384 said:


> Certain protein powders are better than others at encouraging healing and trauma recovery, and all protein powders digest and absorb differently into the body. Protein unused by the body is excreted of course, as waste...


Yep. From all food sources, not just powder. I'd argue this is a bigger problem for "food" sources than powder, since some of the protein from solid food will be mixed with the roughage in your diet. 



xfile384 said:


> One documented setback to whey protein is its quick digestion and absorption into the bloodstream, resulting in many of its health enhancing qualities being destroyed by the liver before benefiting muscle tissue...


I would LOVE to see this documentation. I had no idea whey protein was more likely to be destroyed in the liver than solid food sources. How does this happen - got a link? 


xfile384 said:


> For this reason, protein powders made exclusively with whey protein may do nothing to stop catabolism...Which is why i prefer eating meats, chicken, fish over protein shakes. There are whey protein powders available, however, with delivery systems specifically designed to slow the absorption of whey protein and deliver more of its benefits to muscle.
> 
> Casein protein powder digests slowly which, before bedtime and between meals, can deliver a steady supply of amino acids needed to stop muscles from breaking down during long periods of physical rest.


It's a LITTLE slower. But not much. The difference is pretty trivial. And for post-workout, casein outperforms whey because it gels in the stomach, thus ensuring a steady trickle of amino acids. 

This is a small point, however, if you're otherwise eating a lot of protein anyway.


xfile384 said:


> Whey protein powder is more soluble in liquid, which makes it easier to mix with liquids and digest as a beverage. Which makes it perfect for before and after workouts when it's crucial for amino acids to flow steadily to muscles for strength and recovery.


Actually, casein has been shown to do at least as much to enhance recovery as whey. In fact, whole milk - fat included - works like a hot damn! Pinky swear!



xfile384 said:


> I'm with you though. I would much rather have a steak over any of this. I'm not saying protein powder is bad, it just seems like a waste of time. Unless you just don't have time to eat...Then, it would make sense to take some. But like you said, you have no problem eating 200g of protein daily and neither would I.



I make a mean steak, I tell you what!

I look forward to your reply.


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## Merkaba (Oct 23, 2008)

Ben dur said:


> i can bench press 225
> its not so impressive
> 
> and is really an insignificant number in comparison to many
> ...



its not the weight.  See the rest of my reply below.



xfile384 said:


> Benching 225 at my weight is great...(especially for someone not trying to get big) I'm not trying to bench a lot, just trying to stay cut. Did i ever imply i was on a bulk? I enjoy the beach cut look. I can max out 100lbs over my body weight and their is nothing wrong with that. It impresses me and that's what matters. I'll continue to stay this way, because i have no intentions of becoming bigger. I never meant, or said that benching 225 was some god weight...
> 
> "Apparently," you still haven't read that book. Read my long post and learn from it. Sure, you could eat french fries and lean out. Why couldn't you? Like your butt buddy said, "eat 10 or 400 grams of protein come in over your maintenance and you're gonna store fat." (he had terrible grammar here, but just keeping the quote. I guess all that protein is going straight to his muscle and definitely not to his brain) Same goes for french fries, or any other food. If you eat under your maintenance, you will lose weight. Still not grasping?
> 
> ...



Unfortunately you took everything seriously by Ben...and I. I think ben was replying to me otherwise he would've mentioned your bench earlier.  Though I would expect you to take me seriously at this point, Its not about the weight you bench, its the fact that youre even talking about benching as if its an indicator of anything.  Its all too common male bravado, but you like to call me tough guy!  "how much do ya bench" is a pet peeve of about 50% of the people on this forum.  

Actually, I dont know that you know what youre talking about, and obviously a few others don't.  I only choose to "fight back and forth" so that people reading won't be confused.  That's it.  

However, I will officially cool it down since you're now actually using the phrase "picking on people"...which is ....well, worthy of an "awww"...ok I said I was gonna cool it.


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## Merkaba (Oct 26, 2008)

....hmmmmm


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## Ben dur (Oct 26, 2008)

no no
i was not in any way challenging merkaba..
in fact i take just about everything you say to heart and i look up to you alot merkaba!


i was  trying to tell this Xfile character that his bench number is not impressive, and it does nothing to show his expertise or experience in any area.


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## Ben dur (Oct 26, 2008)

and i BTW do not bench 225
but this does not show that i have no experience in the gym


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## Merkaba (Oct 26, 2008)

Ben dur said:


> no no
> i was not in any way challenging merkaba..
> in fact i take just about everything you say to heart and i look up to you alot merkaba!
> 
> ...



Nah i didn't think you were "challenging" me, just pokin' fun,with me, at the whole bench comment like you just precluded to.


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## Ben dur (Oct 26, 2008)

no it was more of me mocking him

im weak on bench press
but i can do deadhang 20 pullups

how many people can say that?
at 175lbs?

its not super human
but it just goes to show you

a person who can bench press 600 lbs
maybe cant even do 1 pullup

i strive to be well rounded


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## xfile384 (Oct 26, 2008)

Ben dur said:


> a person who can bench press 600 lbs
> maybe cant even do 1 pullup



Yeah...


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## Ben dur (Oct 26, 2008)

i really dont see whats funny about that...


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## Merkaba (Oct 26, 2008)

Ben dur said:


> no it was more of me mocking him
> 
> im weak on bench press
> but i can do deadhang 20 pullups
> ...



Well I would say that anyone who can bench 600 and not do a pullup is pretty "Well-rounded"...to some extent.....ahhahaha....I kill me!


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## Ben dur (Oct 27, 2008)

im just saying

bench isnt everything

and that i know a lot of fat fucks who bench way more than me, but are no where close to my athletic ability

bench pressing 225 isnt that impressive
i cant do it
but that doesnt prove his point


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## Perdido (Oct 27, 2008)

Isn't there a bunch of negative health benefits to be concerned about eating too much protein?
I know if i go over body weight in grams I feel like crap.


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## Built (Oct 27, 2008)

rahaas said:


> Isn't there a bunch of negative health benefits to be concerned about eating too much protein?


Define "too much".


> I know if i go over body weight in grams I feel like crap.


How odd. I wonder why?


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## GOtriSports (Oct 27, 2008)

Built said:


> Define "too much".
> 
> How odd. I wonder why?



I used to believe the stereotype that carbs fill you up... let me tell you the more carbs I eat the more carbs I want. I keep my carbs low now and eat them earlier in the day unless they are just veggies. Since I started doing that my appetite has been a LOT more controlled and I do not have any annoying cravings late at night for cereal =). 

I have wondered a lot about this idea of protein overload as well however. If we want to bulk or even just maintain there is a certain amount of calories we need per day so what is wrong with making the majority of them protein as long as you are getting at least the minimum amount of carbs and fats needed?

EDIT: I didn't mean to quite you built sorry!


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## go4kj (Oct 27, 2008)

You may find this article useful:

CAN YOU GET TOO MUCH PROTEIN? &#151; PART I - Nutrition - Muscle and Fitness

CAN YOU GET TOO MUCH PROTEIN? &#151; PART II - Nutrition - Muscle and Fitness


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## GOtriSports (Oct 27, 2008)

go4kj said:


> You may find this article useful:
> 
> CAN YOU GET TOO MUCH PROTEIN? â?????? PART I - Nutrition - Muscle and Fitness
> 
> CAN YOU GET TOO MUCH PROTEIN? â?????? PART II - Nutrition - Muscle and Fitness



If nothing else those articles make me feel good haha. Its like saying "You are better than the rest of the fat world so you can eat lots of protein and it will do your body justice!" 

Thats what I take from it anyway haha


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## Perdido (Oct 27, 2008)

Built said:


> Define "too much".



Good question. One I do not have the answer too.



Built said:


> How odd. I wonder why?



Another good question that I do not have the answer too.


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## Perdido (Nov 8, 2008)

Built said:


> Define "too much".


First let me say I have not read any of Lyle's books yet so the stuff I've read might be outdated but it does coincide with information gathered in lesser detail from other articles I've seen.

From here: http://www.humankinetics.com/eJournalMedia/pdfs/5642.pdf
Adding this protein requirement (64 g/d for an 80 kg individual) to the level of protein that can be converted to urea, yields a theoretical maximal daily protein intake based on body weight and efficiency of urea synthesis
in individuals. An 80 kg individual, for example, could theoretically tolerate 325 g protein per day (range 285 to 365 g) without showing symptoms of hyperammonemia and hyperaminoacidemia. Such levels are certainly not advocated by the authors and no practical rationale exists for such elevated protein intakes.
Hence, for an 80 kg individual, 285 g protein per day should be viewed as an absolute maximum.


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## Built (Nov 8, 2008)

Their conclusion is based on "common sense" - when the science supports a much higher 325g per day for an 80kg (176 lb) human. 

If we assume this 176 lb human is quite lean and carrying at least 150 lbs of lean mass, 325g of protein represents just over 2g per pound LBM, considerably higher than most bodybuilders generally consume. It's reassuring to know that even this level is perfectly safe for healthy humans.

To address the question of "practical rationale", here's my take:

Hard dieting places the body under considerable oxidative stress, for which increased protein consumption offers protection from muscle loss by keeping the body in a "nitrogen positive" state.
Protein is the most satiating of the macronutrients, stimulating the most postprandial CCK (a satiety hormone) of any of the macronutrients. (protein stimulates the most, carbohydrate stimulates the least, fat is somewhere in the middle, and stimulates more satiety in the obese than it does in the lean)
Beyond a certain point, protein simply becomes "expensive carbohydrate", but with less stimulation of insulin. This helps prevent the systemic inflammation due to a hyperinsulinemic state.
My .02 CDN.


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## Perdido (Nov 8, 2008)

Makes sense to me, especially after re-reading some earlier post in this thread. Thanks for the clarifications.


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