# Question on rate of muscle mass gain during lean bulk



## mccaulleyg (Oct 16, 2009)

Hello all

I am currently done cutting for a while, I reach 7% and since I will not be competing this fall, I have decided to lean bulk for a while.
So I am new to this, I usually have just eaten whatever and allowed fat + muscle gain to occur at whatever rate it happens, this allowed for increases in mass and strength.

Anyway I am new to the concept of a lean bulk.
How fast can muscle grow with minimal fat accumulation? 
I am trying to hit 3300 - 3500 kcals per day, this is 500 above my maintenance, my macro split is 10% carbs or below, 50% fat, 40% pro
50 grams cho, 360 grams pro, 190 fat
I have done this for 10 days since I stopped cutting and I have gained 1 lb, is this good do I need more cals on a high fat diet?
My training is going great, strength is going up fast with the added cals, but just wondering if I should increase cals or what?
Also I was thinking about going 4 weeks of surplus and 2 weeks of deficiet off and on like that, is this a good idea, any experience with this type of stradegy.

Thanks Grant


----------



## Built (Oct 16, 2009)

Since you're doing a low carb bulk, why not try a UD2.0 bulk?


----------



## mccaulleyg (Oct 17, 2009)

I have tried UD 2.0 a couple of months ago and I felt like I made no progress on it, I just was spinning my wheels, I loss control during the carb ups and end up eating way too much, I also feel really bad after eating that many carbs (carb coma).  I did think about trying it for bulking but decided to moderate my approach to what I am doing currently.  After I got off ud 2.0 I really start to lean out, I went from 207 fully carb up to 185 in 7 weeks of cutting.  Now my goal is to gain 20 lbs of muscle over the next 20 weeks before I start a competition cut cycle of about 16-20 weeks depending on what show I decide to enter.


----------



## Built (Oct 17, 2009)

I had trouble with the long carbups too, but it might be a very different story for bulking - and there's a range of carb loads; perhaps you simply went too high? 

Alternatively, you could try what I do: carb cycle, high on training days and low on rest days. You can pick the amounts you want to go to for high and low, based on your comfort. 

For instance, you could go "under a hundred grams" and "over a hundred grams", or you could do "high fat, moderate protein, low carb" on the off days and "low fat, high protein, moderate carb" on training days... lots of ways to do this.


----------



## jbish8 (Oct 17, 2009)

mccaulleyg said:


> I have tried UD 2.0 a couple of months ago and I felt like I made no progress on it, I just was spinning my wheels, I loss control during the carb ups and end up eating way too much, I also feel really bad after eating that many carbs (carb coma).  I did think about trying it for bulking but decided to moderate my approach to what I am doing currently.  After I got off ud 2.0 I really start to lean out, I went from 207 fully carb up to 185 in 7 weeks of cutting.  Now my goal is to gain 20 lbs of muscle over the next 20 weeks before I start a competition cut cycle of about 16-20 weeks depending on what show I decide to enter.


Finally, someone else who didn't have success on UD2. I thought I was weird or something. My workout partner and I decided to give it a shot a few weeks ago, and I followed the plan to the letter. The first week I got great results, but I always do when switching from bulking to cutting, and from there my results just went down hill to the point of some weeks not losing anything to others losing 50% lbm and 50% fat, not to mention the feeling like crap for 75% of the week. My partner had the same type of results, and I tried all sorts of different foods for my carb-ups, but I did only do it for 6 weeks, so maybe I didn't give it long enough. I think it may be for a higher BF range as I started at around 9% trying to get to 5-6. I ended up at maybe 8% at best after 6 weeks, and I've had much better success just doing a cut similar to what Built describes above.

My opinion is that there really isn't such a thing as a "lean bulk", at least as far as gaining ONLY LBM and 0 fat, not for me anyways.

For me, the best thing that has worked so far on bulking is to increase my calories 5-700 cals above maintainance, so as to consistently gain 1+ lbs per week but no more than 1.5 lbs per week with macros at .5 grams of fat per LBM, 1.5 grams of protein per LBM and the rest carbs. Built suggested this to me as I was previously watching my calories very closely, eating only 2-300 cals above maint., and only eating the "cleanest" foods as to only gain LBM and no fat. Truth is, you gain the same % of fat either way, so you might as well gain as much LBM as possible with it, in the shortest amount of time. The trick is finding the point of diminishing returns. For me it's above 1.5 lbs. per week and I also notice if I eat much more fat than .5 lbs per LBM, my LBM increase to fat isn't as good, but that's just me.

Hope that helps.


----------



## jbish8 (Oct 17, 2009)

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I agree with the plan of bulking for a period and then cutting for a short period. It's what I do, except I use BF% as my basis. I start bulking at 7%, and cut at 9-10%. I've found this to be the most efficent way to gain LBM, while keeping fat in check. It also makes sense, if you understand the whole partitioning concept, plus you always get to keep your abs.


----------



## mccaulleyg (Oct 17, 2009)

Thanks for the reply good info
I will do the same as far as running mini cuts to maintain below 10% body fat, as you gain do you find you need to increase total cals to maintain a higher amount of lean body mass?
I am going to use my deload weeks as cutting/cardio weeks, also my cutting is not going to be as drastic as when I am truely running long cutting periods.

Have you guys found that not carbing up at all limits gains?  I am just kind of sick of carbing and I love my high fat diet.  I am using BCAA's, glutamine, creatine and whey around my workouts to try and maximize anabolism without workout carbs.  I tried malto and dextrose with whey around my workout, it did not really help my workout intensity, but it did make me sleeping and hungry for the rest of the day.  I hate carbs!  I have to maintain focus and physical intensity with my work for up to 14 hours at a time so this is not a great situation, I talking about spiking insulin and then crashing it sucks.  I call this Target ketogenic dieting? OK there you go, what do you guys think?

What about just eating more fat and pro on heavy training days? Specifically around the workout.
Grant


----------



## Built (Oct 17, 2009)

jbish, I agree, and I agree. I had trouble with UD2 because of the carbups, and my strong feeling is that there is a sweet spot for making gains - and it's leaner than many think, at least it is for me. 

mccaulleyg, why not just do a very small amount of carbs on lifting days, something fairly fast so it's in and then out of you - perhaps 20-40g from something like white rice in a mixed meal an hour or so before you train, and then say 20g each of dextrose and whey in a shake while training - and then back to higher fat and protein after you train? I've done it this way for a very long time and I find it very comfortable to have the carb in me for the workout, but back to the comfortable diet afterward. 

Could this work for you?


----------



## mccaulleyg (Oct 17, 2009)

I think it could work, but what is the point? I guess that is what I am asking? Everyone talks like carbs around the workout are so important for protein synthesis and stopping catabolism, but I am just not sure, the research is somewhat split on this...Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2007 Sep;293:E833-E842

From a practical stand point I have been below 50 carbs for 10 days and my workouts are great, today I trained legs hard as crap for 70 minutes, hit PR's on all my lifts of 5's and then drop sets of 8-12's. 
Squated two times body weight 12x which I don;t think I have every come close to before, so I am pretty happy, I feel now on day 10 that I am totally fat adapted.  I then went and hit 15 hill sprints tonight with my kids, so why do I need workout carbs? I guess I am wondering if anyone has contrasted the two methods and found workout carbs to be superior for building lean mass versus my current protocol that I described above.  At this point for me I just have not observed there to be much added benefit.

Built I have done a lot more carbs around the workout than what you are suggesting 20 pre and during and 40-80 post, I only stayed with it for about 3 days before starting my current deal.

So in 10 days of lean bulking I have gone from 189.5 to 191.5, good progress right?
Over this time I hit 10% cho, 40% pro, and 50% fat.

For cutting I think the carbs are more important because you can;t have high fat levels it just doesn't work out, during my cut I was eating oats and meal replacements just to survive so I will try to use smaller amount of workout dextrose to get me through, but at this point I think I will stay with what I have rolling.

Thanks for the input!


----------



## Built (Oct 17, 2009)

I'm a high-fat gal, believe me. It's just that on a bulk, you'll generally partition better if you lean more heavily on the carbs than the fats - also, insulin slows your clearance of testosterone. 

That being said, I'm a huge fan of not fixing non-broken things. If you feel good and you're making good gains, leave it alone and come back when you plateau. I'm actually very interested in your approach. The one thing I'll mention is you may find your higher-rep stuff suffers a bit on the lower carbs, but that's not a deal-breaker by any stretch. Perhaps an argument for more frequent, but shorter workouts. 

Please keep us apprised as to how this works. Me, I never get tired of eating a lower carb, higher-fat diet.


----------



## jbish8 (Oct 17, 2009)

mccaulleyg said:


> Thanks for the reply good info
> I will do the same as far as running mini cuts to maintain below 10% body fat, as you gain do you find you need to increase total cals to maintain a higher amount of lean body mass?
> 
> Grant


Yes, I usually have to raise cals 100 or 2 every couple weeks while bulking to continue to gain at the same rate. 

As far as low carbing on the bulk, like Built said "don't fix it, if it ain't broken", but that sure seems like you would end up with alot of protein and or fat. I know my results wouldn't be as good. 10 days isn't a whole lot of time to go on, especially since my best results always come in the first couple weeks of switching from cut to bulk, or vise versa, but I guess just see how you feel as you continue. I noticed in your other thread, you thought UD2 was working awesome for you, and apparantly that didn't last.  Don't mean to be rude......just sayin'. Good luck, and hope it works for ya.


----------



## mccaulleyg (Oct 18, 2009)

Yeah it didn't last, I think I was excited with the depletion weight /glycogen loss in the beginning, then the cycle just kept repeating itself...  The other thing with UD 2.0 is that I was working my ass off with cardio and depletion workouts for the first 2-3 days, which was hard to maintain every week, I did it for 5 weeks. I then switched to a more moderate cutting plan and it allowed me to not work so hard and to feel a lot better, I finally broke the 10% body fat level and got down to 6-7% and body weight into the 180's, I used that plan for 5 weeks, so total I cut for about 10 weeks, went from 15-16% to 7%, 207 - 185. Your right though I am kind of up and down on different nutritional and supplement routines, I am just searching and experimenting with what works best for me.  I will continue with this for 17 more days and the deload and run a mini cut. I will let you guys know how it goes.  Here is a pick of me at 185, before I started lean bulk.


----------



## Built (Oct 18, 2009)

Holy crap! You are just thick as hell, nice definition - and wheels too! Sick quads. Okay, whatever you're doing, plan-jumping or not, is clearly working. 

Do keep us apprised as to your progress with this current plan.


----------



## jbish8 (Oct 18, 2009)

^^^ What she said!!!


----------

