# Can I bulk on low carbs?



## gtbmed (Sep 13, 2010)

I'm in the process of cutting on low carbs right now, but eventually I want to bulk a little bit.

What I'm wondering is, so long as I'm getting enough calories, protein, and fats, does it matter that my carbs are pretty low?  I'm planning to eat less than 70g of carbs per day, almost all of them coming from milk (I don't count veggies).


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## LAM (Sep 13, 2010)

part of bulking is not only creating a caloric excess but keeping insulin levels low and stable.  insulin being the most anabolic hormone in the body having chronic low insulin would not be favorable to anabolism.   IMO, at the minimum you would need something to possibly mimic the effects of insulin like IGF-1 L3.


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## awhites1 (Sep 13, 2010)

how do you have 913 post on this board and ask a question like that?... why would you bulk and go low carb? i mean you could yes but why?


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## Phineas (Sep 13, 2010)

You could, but why would you want to? How do you expect to fuel yourself properly for training on less than 70g a day?


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## Phineas (Sep 13, 2010)

awhites1 said:


> how do you have 913 post on this board and ask a question like that?... why would you bulk and go low carb? i mean you could yes but why?



gtbmed is one of the most knowledgeable members on the board.


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## Phineas (Sep 13, 2010)

LAM said:


> part of bulking is not only creating a caloric excess but keeping insulin levels low and stable.  insulin being the most anabolic hormone in the body having chronic low insulin would not be favorable to anabolism.   IMO, at the minimum you would need something to possibly mimic the effects of insulin like IGF-1 L3.



First of all, can't insulin spikes be used to a bodybuilder's benefit for the efficient transfer of nutrients? (e.g. combining post-training creatine with a simple sugar).

Secondly, if he's taking in very few carbs his insulin _would_ be low. He wouldn't be forcing large amounts of glucose into his bloodstream like in conventional bulking.


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## LAM (Sep 13, 2010)

technically the brain needs 5grams of glucose per hour to function normally.  even with a reduced caloric intake the body would convert other substrates into glucose to meet these needs.

I do well on low carbs but I was never a big carb eater to being with.  for whatever reason the meals that my parents cooked were all generally low carb so I have adapted to that. IMO this is one of those things were you have to know your body and adjust your carb intake accordingly but with reduced carbs the performance in the gym always suffers.  

* you could do something like a TKD and consume most of your carbs before/after training. 

* am insulin spike with high carbs to blunt cortisol and decrease SHBG then spread the remaining out

* spread them out evenly among all meals


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## gtbmed (Sep 13, 2010)

I mainly want to do it for comfort.  Most of the foods I eat are low in carbs so it's just convenient to eat that way.  I suppose I could just drink more milk and eat fewer eggs or something.

I was planning to get a lot of those carbs from some protein shakes with about 1 cup of milk each.


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## Arra (Sep 13, 2010)

Have you checked out the Anabolic Diet or Bodyopus? Both are centered around the cyclical ketogenic diet.

I also know Mark McManus bulks with CKD or his own version which is called MANS.

Edit: Oh, and there's also the Targeted Keto Diet, but I'm not terribly familiar with it.


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## Merkaba (Sep 14, 2010)

How long are you going to bulk?  I'm from the school that says that generally bulking and cutting should be uncomfortable.  As they say, moving out of comfort is how we grow(A great sales job quote) but its usually true across the board.  While it might be more un-comfortable for you at say 200 grams from traditional sources which would probably still be "technically low", I think it could really translate well during workout time.


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## theCaptn' (Sep 14, 2010)

Sounds like a job for the Lyle MacDonald's Ultimate Diet II


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## unclem (Sep 14, 2010)

like LMA said , hes right, so is phineas. just eat carbs with regular diet to bulk. i cant bulk on anything, thats the problem. but iam not very good with diets. but i know that much.


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## theCaptn' (Sep 14, 2010)

. . Im down with that Milk/dieting thing . .  Geared Jesus has enlightened me


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## Kleen (Sep 14, 2010)

You can definitely bulk on lower carbs, bottom line is that diet is very personal to you. If you are a person who gains fat quickly on even moderate carbs then there is no reason for you to go high carb just because everyone "in the know" says it is best. I keep my carbs pretty low all year round and I am not low on muscle. I am doig the Ultimate Diet 2.0 by Lyle McDonald now and am enjoying the carb loads. It has been working great for me so far. When used for gaining mass it works nicely to keep you lean while gaining. 

However when keeping my carbs lower during a bulk I stay with about 75-100 grams of carbs following my workout and then whatever i get from almonds, greens, and 1 grapefruit eaten in halves with 2 meals. If your body is already used to burning fat preferentially for energy then you don't need a lot of carbs. Just a spike right after your workout. Your muscle will pull them all in, and then your blood sugar will go back to being lower and you will run off of fat the rest of the day as usual. Not dipping into the glycogen stores in your muscle until you need to when you lift again. I do recommend the use of a glycogen disposal agent with your carb meals. Also don't forget that BCAA's cause a nice insulin spike too so you don't have to have the carbs to turn on the glut 4 reaction in your muscles. A high dose of BCAA or specifically leucine will do the trick and create anabolism.


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## gtbmed (Sep 14, 2010)

Marquis du Gears said:


> Sounds like a job for the Lyle MacDonald's Ultimate Diet II



I've thought about using UD2.0 for both cutting and bulking before, but I couldn't convince myself to do the training program that Lyle laid out in the book.

I guess I'll just raise the carbs a bit, but I normally don't eat many carb-rich foods, so I'll have to figure out a way to add some.  I might try CKD.


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## theCaptn' (Sep 14, 2010)

gtbmed said:


> I've thought about using UD2.0 for both cutting and bulking before, but I couldn't convince myself to do the training program that Lyle laid out in the book.
> 
> I guess I'll just raise the carbs a bit, but I normally don't eat many carb-rich foods, so I'll have to figure out a way to add some. I might try CKD.


 
I have issue with the training aspect too


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## Kleen (Sep 14, 2010)

You know you don't have to follow what he has in that book. I do GVT Mon, Tues, Wed, for my depletion workouts and then a 5x5 set/rep pattern on Friday Chest, Back thickness, Shoulders, Back width and Saturday Traps, Triceps, Biceps and Squats. 

It makes it more growth friendly. I have put on 16 lbs in 3.5 weeks doing it and Super DMZ, and am leaner than I was to start.


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## Built (Sep 14, 2010)

Kleen, you bring up some excellent points - and I love your training subs for UD2.

Re the carbs - I'd suggest having some of the carb preworkout and some post - on extended low carb dieting, insulin sensitivity is impaired; splitting up the carb may be more useful because you'll be taking better advantage of upregulated glucose transporters as the carb trickles into your blood stream. At least that's how it makes sense in my little mind. 

I also highly recommend creatine for the carbups/carb loads. Might as well load it in while carbing up. Helps with reglycogenation as well. 

Kleen, what glucose disposal agents do you like? I imagine R-ALA - what dose do you like, what timing? Any others you like? Do you recommend metformin at all for this - and if so, how much and when?


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## Kleen (Sep 15, 2010)

Built said:


> Kleen, you bring up some excellent points - and I love your training subs for UD2.
> 
> Re the carbs - I'd suggest having some of the carb preworkout and some post - on extended low carb dieting, insulin sensitivity is impaired; splitting up the carb may be more useful because you'll be taking better advantage of upregulated glucose transporters as the carb trickles into your blood stream. At least that's how it makes sense in my little mind.
> 
> ...


Interesting that you mention the pre workout carbs. He recommends taking in about 25 grams of complex carbs pre workout before you start your carb up. So before the first power work out you take in 25-30 grams of carbs first then post workout begin your assent into carb heaven for 24 hours. I agree that having a smaller carb meal to prime insulin response is good, insulin response typically is better after at least one carb meal so the body sets a baseline for the use. On the other days he wants you to avoid the carbs preworkout because depletion is the goal. 

As far as GDA R-ALA is good stuff in the 300-400mg range. I also really like berberine 400-500 mg, I get a great pump from it and the fact it turns off the glut 4 reaction in fat cells helps keep you from storing any fat. Vanadyl is another one I like. I prefer non insulin dependent GDA's that turn on the Glut 4 reaction without having to have the initial insulin spike to get them working. I actually like R ALA for this as well because it helps with pulling fat to be used for energy and the berberine not allow it to be redeposited helps you achieve ketosis on those low carb days more easily. I tend to cap my own stuff a lot but as far as ust buying a GDA I like Glycobol, with Cinnamon. Na Rala, and berberine in it. Although there is a new product called Recompadrol that I am very interested in. I just have a lot of Berberine, Banaba, and NaRala and Cinnamon to finish up first. I also prefer to dose my GDA's 15-30 minutes prior to my carb meals. I also like Slin but it is insulin dependent, however when bulking it works great. As far as the Metformin, I have up until this point been keeping it natural so I can't really say. I would assume it is pretty good in that aspect. I have found I can find a little more reliable information on GDA's from Diabetes sites than bodybuilding sites. One people are just trying to sell you on the newest hyped product but at a diabetes site they are trying to heal thyself and they do so with GDA's so that is where I like to research some of what works and the properties of them. I actually started getting my diet in check from reading these sites when my family almost all developed type 2 diabetes or became borderline. Since then I have learned how to make my body respond maximally to minimal carbs. I am one of the lucky few who can gain fat if I eat more than 200 grams of carbs a day. That is my threshold unless I am doing a diet like the UD2. Although the mass quantities of carbs on the weekend throw me out of my balance and use more insulin than I prefer so I can't stay on it forever. 

Oh yeah another option for the gentlemen that started this thread, what about the 180 diet? You get 180 grams of carbs a day no more and no less. You get the rest of your caloric needs from protein and healthy fats. This would be pretty optimized for you if you stay low carb generally. You can get most of your carbs in around your workout. I think you can get a copy of the 180 diet from the Universal Magazine site. I like the look of it and may even use it during my PCT.


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## Built (Sep 15, 2010)

Kleen, thanks for that. I began my journey while borderline TTD; started with Atkins and continued from there. 

Drop me a PM with your source for bulks, if you don't mind. I tend to make a lot of my own supps as well.


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## SBT (Sep 15, 2010)

I've also used the UD2 in the past for some lean bulks and it worked great for me too... gained about 3-5 lbs each time over 4-6 weeks but always wound up LEANER then I started as well.


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