# Wendler's 5/3/1



## gtbmed (Aug 23, 2010)

What are people's experiences with this?

I've heard good things from a lot of people.  It doesn't seem like an overly taxing program when you look at it but the anecdotal results are undeniable.

My biggest concern is with the exercise selection.  I'm not much of a bench presser.  Would substituting weighted chins be alright?

Also, is it normal to feel that the weights are very light?  It just doesn't seem like it would be overly challenging.


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## Marat (Aug 23, 2010)

I'm a huge fan of the program and I recommend it to everyone.

It's fine if the weights feel light -- you'll get stronger and you'll user heavier weight in the future.

I feel the program is very taxing --- the accessory work is where you bust your ass. Which variety are you doing? BBB or Triumvirate? What are the accessory movements that have you selected?

Why don't you bench press?


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## Flathead (Aug 24, 2010)

m11 said:


> I'm a huge fan of the program and I recommend it to everyone.
> 
> It's fine if the weights feel light -- you'll get stronger and you'll user heavier weight in the future.
> 
> ...


 

+1


I have yet to try the routine myself, but I've just recently read Wendler's book & I believe it's a solid routine/program. My opinion is that it's a somewhat slow paced machine, that yields good long term results. It's kind of universal, meaning you could use it for bodybuilding or Power Lifting. I plan on rotating it in every once in a while with my Westside routine. I will use it as a deload routine for 4wks at a time.


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## gtbmed (Aug 24, 2010)

m11 said:


> I'm a huge fan of the program and I recommend it to everyone.
> 
> It's fine if the weights feel light -- you'll get stronger and you'll user heavier weight in the future.
> 
> ...



I was planning on doing the BBB version of it.  But looking at the percentages for the accessory work made it sound pretty easy.

I don't bench press much because I have long arms and I find benching to be uncomfortabl, I am interested in olympic weightlifting and chest strength is kind of wasted there, and I also play a lot of volleyball so I fear rotator cuff issues.


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## LoadedBats (Aug 24, 2010)

gtbmed said:


> I was planning on doing the BBB version of it.  But looking at the percentages for the accessory work made it sound pretty easy.
> 
> I don't bench press much because I have long arms and I find benching to be uncomfortabl, I am interested in olympic weightlifting and chest strength is kind of wasted there, and I also play a lot of volleyball so I fear rotator cuff issues.



I've also done this program and have had great success with it.  Let me tell you, that it is NOT easy if you're going to do the Boring But Big template.  Especially for Deadlifts and Squats (after you've squated/deadlifted you're top set for a rep PR, having to do 5 sets of ten with 60% of your calculated max is brutal.....especially if you're strong.)

Just out of curiousity, if you're interested in Olympic Lifting, then why are you looking at a program that is aimed at increasing raw strength in the squat/deadlift/bench/military press?  

I'm not trying to bust your balls, I'm just thinking that this program doesn't seem to fit your goals.


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## fufu (Aug 24, 2010)

I haven't read the book, so I don't know exactly what the routine involves, but weights feeling light is fine as long as you are eventually going to hit PR's. I'm not familiar with the progression so I don't know how you will be reaching PRs, but as long as you are hitting them I wouldn't worry.

75% of the time I'm lifting weights that I can easily do, the last part of my training phases is where the difficulty resides. You can't be a hero everyday. 

Consistent methodical training is going to get you long term injury free results.


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## gtbmed (Aug 24, 2010)

LoadedBats said:


> I've also done this program and have had great success with it.  Let me tell you, that it is NOT easy if you're going to do the Boring But Big template.  Especially for Deadlifts and Squats (after you've squated/deadlifted you're top set for a rep PR, having to do 5 sets of ten with 60% of your calculated max is brutal.....especially if you're strong.)
> 
> Just out of curiousity, if you're interested in Olympic Lifting, then why are you looking at a program that is aimed at increasing raw strength in the squat/deadlift/bench/military press?
> 
> I'm not trying to bust your balls, I'm just thinking that this program doesn't seem to fit your goals.



It's a good question, no worries.

Right now I'm fairly weak overall.  I would call myself a novice lifter who lacks in raw strength.  I feel that I need to develop that.

In addition, my current gym doesn't have platforms, bumper plates, or bars that I would need to train for the O lifts, so I've decided to put them on hold for a bit until I move away from here.

And you guys are right, this is a lot more difficult than it seems.  That last set is painful.  But it's quick and simple and I like that.


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## Marat (Aug 24, 2010)

gtbmed said:


> looking at the percentages for the accessory work made it sound pretty easy.


Wendler does not indicate a set intensity for assistance work -- pick a weight that provides appropriate stimulation. 



gtbmed said:


> I don't bench press much because I have long arms and I find benching to be uncomfortabl,



One should absolutely not feel comfortable during any barbell movement. Feeling comfortable on the bench (as if lying down on a couch) indicates a lack of tightness and therefore a large loss in the ability to transfer power. Additionally, any issue you may have by having slightly long levers, relative to others, isn't a sufficient reason to not bench. Rather, it is likely that you may have poor scapular flexibility which makes it tougher to get your shoulder blades underneath you. Long arms should not affect your ability to bench properly and effectively.

I highly recommend reevaluating your technique. 



gtbmed said:


> I am interested in olympic weightlifting



Adding olympic lifts isn't only welcome but it is a great idea. Wendler briefly describes in the book how to incorporate olympic lifting.



gtbmed said:


> chest strength is kind of wasted there,


The bench press is a full body lift and a major contributor to improving overall strength. I recommend reevaluating your technique in order to ensure that you are properly able to transfer power from your legs to your arms. Feel free to post a video.



gtbmed said:


> and I also play a lot of volleyball so I fear rotator cuff issues.



Bench pressing will increase the strength around your rotator cuffs. This will aid in preventing injury. 


In reference to form, Dave Tate recently released a series of brief videos that can help you get on the right track. This is the link to the seventh of seven videos. The first six videos are also linked on that page.


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## gtbmed (Aug 24, 2010)

m11, thanks for the advice.

I've read a lot of stuff from Tate, Wendler, and Louie.  I'll have to look a bit further I guess.

I'm probably going to add O lifts on a few off days.  It will help with GPP and maintain my form while I'm not training them hard.  That's what I did when I was on Starr's 5x5 and it worked well.


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## fufu (Aug 24, 2010)

Tate's videos on bench technique are great. You definitely got to check those out.


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## gtbmed (Aug 24, 2010)

fufu said:


> Tate's videos on bench technique are great. You definitely got to check those out.



Yeah, I watched his old ones and they were awesome.  Plus, the guy's mannerisms are hilarious.


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## gtbmed (Aug 25, 2010)

Holy crap I am sore.  I'm not used to the kind of volume demanded by BBB.  I usually follow programs which are heavy, low volume, and fullbody.  This is totally different.


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## Stewart14 (Aug 25, 2010)

ok here's one for you 5-3-1 gurus on here.  I was thinking about playing with this program in two different scenarios.  The first involves just using the 5-3-1 scheme on all of my exercises and upping the frequency to twice per week per exercises.  For example, day one would be bench, oh press, rows, chins, and close grip bench done with the 5-3-1 scheme.  The first day would be the 85% top set, second day would be the 90%, third would be the 95% and the fourth would be the deload, so one "cycle" in 2 weeks.  this would make it somewhat similar to DC training in a way.

the second scenario involves replacing oh press as a 5-3-1 exercise with chinups.  I think the program needs more upper body pulling emphasis instead of it being all assistance work, and i think chins are appropriate for high weight work.  so oh press would be the assistance work for chins on this day.

what do you guys think about both scenarios?


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## gtbmed (Aug 25, 2010)

I'm a total novice with this, but:

Doesn't sound like a bad idea at all to me.  I've done a lot of programs where I do 3 sets of 5 of about 4 exercises and try to ramp the weights up over the course of a few weeks, so what you're talking about doesn't seem far off that.

I definitely agree on the second part.  I think the program needs more upper body pulling.  I was planning on replacing bench with chins and making it an accessory exercise simply because I think overhead pressing has a bit more carryover to O lifting.


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## Stewart14 (Aug 25, 2010)

gtbmed said:


> I'm a total novice with this, but:
> 
> Doesn't sound like a bad idea at all to me.  I've done a lot of programs where I do 3 sets of 5 of about 4 exercises and try to ramp the weights up over the course of a few weeks, so what you're talking about doesn't seem far off that.
> 
> I definitely agree on the second part.  I think the program needs more upper body pulling.  I was planning on replacing bench with chins and making it an accessory exercise simply because I think overhead pressing has a bit more carryover to O lifting.



for your o lifting, you could probably set it up as front squats, power cleans, oh press, and chins for your 5-3-1 exercises and then whatever else you wanted for accessory.


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## Marat (Aug 25, 2010)

What rep ranges are you planning on for the assistance work in the first scenario? Personally, I couldn't imagine handling that kind of work load if you were to stretch it out over four days. What would your deadlift and squat days look like?

Additionally, using so many movements makes it difficult to identify each movement's individual effectiveness. 

The second scenario looks fine.

Also, feel free to ask Jim. He'll usually answer within a few days onto the Q&A page -- just check every now and then. 

All in all, give it a shot -- 5/3/1 is more or less a template that can be modified. Either scenario obviously isn't going to hurt you and perhaps you stumbled upon something that will be very effective. I'd be glad to hear how you either scenario works out for you.


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## Stewart14 (Aug 25, 2010)

m11 said:


> What rep ranges are you planning on for the assistance work in the first scenario? Personally, I couldn't imagine handling that kind of work load if you were to stretch it out over four days. What would your deadlift and squat days look like?
> 
> Additionally, using so many movements makes it difficult to identify each movement's individual effectiveness.
> 
> ...



under my first scenario, there would be no assistance work.  It would just be the main exercises, whatever it was that I picked.  so something like this for a cycle:

monday-bench, oh press, rows, chins, close grip bench 85% day
wednesday-squat, sldl, curls 85% day
friday-bench, oh press, rows, chins, cg bench 90% day
saturday-squat, sldl, curls 90% day
monday-bench, oh press, rows, chins, cg bench 95% day
wednesday-squats, sldl, curls 95% day
friday-bench, oh press, rows, chins, cg bench deload day
saturday-squats, sldl, curls deload day
monday-repeat with new 1rm estimate.

so for example on the 85% day you might get 200 x 5, 215 x 5, 225 x 12 for your bench workout, then you move on to oh press, etc.

that was my thinking.  it becomes low volume with higher frequency, I just don't know how it would play out over a few "cycles"  obviously the original method is tried and true to give you at least a few months progress.


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## Marat (Aug 25, 2010)

As you mentioned, you're leaning on frequency over volume.  It turns the program on it's head a bit because you are now working through the lifts instead of using volume to build them up. The volume-based methodology is tried and true, as you said, but if you are finding that you are not receptive to the volume,  there's no point banging your head against the wall with the same plan. Give the frequency-based manipulation a shot.


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## gtbmed (Aug 25, 2010)

Stewart14 said:


> for your o lifting, you could probably set it up as front squats, power cleans, oh press, and chins for your 5-3-1 exercises and then whatever else you wanted for accessory.



Yeah, but the problem is that I don't like power cleans that much (I prefer full cleans) and I would hate to go with a set of 5+ for power cleans.  I usually don't do much more volume than triples with cleans.


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## Stewart14 (Aug 25, 2010)

gtbmed said:


> Yeah, but the problem is that I don't like power cleans that much (I prefer full cleans) and I would hate to go with a set of 5+ for power cleans.  I usually don't do much more volume than triples with cleans.



i thought about that as well, and all i can say is who really ever goes above 5 reps on the deadlift either?  i remember the last time i tried this program, i ran through it for about a couple of weeks, but when i had deadlift day on the first day i think i wound up deadlifting 335 for like 13 reps or so...that was crazy...so the cleans would be a walk in the park for you, lol.

oh and isn't a power clean a full clean?  are you referring to a full clean as the lift beginning on the floor?  i thought the term power clean was for the lift started from the floor, and hang cleans are from the knees?  probably just semantics


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## Stewart14 (Aug 25, 2010)

m11 said:


> As you mentioned, you're leaning on frequency over volume.  It turns the program on it's head a bit because you are now working through the lifts instead of using volume to build them up. The volume-based methodology is tried and true, as you said, but if you are finding that you are not receptive to the volume,  there's no point banging your head against the wall with the same plan. Give the frequency-based manipulation a shot.



you are right, the only way to know is to try.  i guess it boils down to progressing at a faster rate in the core exercises versus slower "weight" progression, but also getting in a ton of volume at a low intensity.  I can see my method working at first when you're still able to hit 4-6 reps on the 95% day, but when you progress to actually doing a single on that day, that would probably be where it ends.


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## gtbmed (Aug 25, 2010)

Stewart14 said:


> i thought about that as well, and all i can say is who really ever goes above 5 reps on the deadlift either?  i remember the last time i tried this program, i ran through it for about a couple of weeks, but when i had deadlift day on the first day i think i wound up deadlifting 335 for like 13 reps or so...that was crazy...so the cleans would be a walk in the park for you, lol.
> 
> oh and isn't a power clean a full clean?  are you referring to a full clean as the lift beginning on the floor?  i thought the term power clean was for the lift started from the floor, and hang cleans are from the knees?  probably just semantics



"Power" clean means you catch the weight without your knees passing parallel.  "Hang" clean describes the start position like you said.  When I say full cleans, I mean a clean from the floor where you drop under the weight into a full front squat position.

The thing I hate about doing high reps for cleans is that after a bunch of reps my form seems to go to hell from the fatigue.  It happens for deads and squats but it's not as severe.

I might try it though.  I'm always looking for good ways to incorporate O lifts into my training routines.  I was thinking about doing a Westside-style O lifting program for a while, similar to the one described by Travis Mash.


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## Stewart14 (Aug 25, 2010)

I went into my 5-3-1 e book to get the quote from the q and a about cleans and this is what wendler says:

"Question: Can I use power cleans (or something similar) in this program? If so, where would you put them? Answer: Yes, this is a great idea. I???d recommend doing power cleans, hang cleans, power snatches or hang snatches if want to choose an Olympic movement. If you want to do these along with the regular training, I???d recommend doing them before you perform your squat or deadlift workout."

unfortunately he doesn't give set or rep guides, but going by this you can do it in your comfortable rep range since it won't be a main exercise.


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## LoadedBats (Sep 2, 2010)

Stewart14 said:


> under my first scenario, there would be no assistance work.  It would just be the main exercises, whatever it was that I picked.  so something like this for a cycle:
> 
> monday-bench, oh press, rows, chins, close grip bench 85% day
> wednesday-squat, sldl, curls 85% day
> ...



If you have the work capacity and the ability to recover fast, then I suppose this could work, it seems like a lot to me personally, and I would think the movements you hit after your first 1 or 2 would would suffer some.  I know for myself, and other people who have used this, that hitting each lift once per week ( 4-day split) seems to work well (some people even go less by using the 3-day split).

The bench and military stress similar muscles do a degree, as does the squat and deadlift (again to a degree).  So this program can be set up as an upper/lower type split hitting each group/movement twice a week.  

I've used it as an Upper/Lower strength based template, and also in a bodybuilding/hypertrophy based template.  It's really versitile.   

As far as the chin-ups replacing OH press, that's you're call.  I typically double my volume of pulling to pressing to offset any imbalances, rather than focusing on driving up pulling strength, but again that's individual.  

So where you planning on dropping floor deads for sldl?


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## LoadedBats (Sep 2, 2010)

gtbmed said:


> Yeah, but the problem is that I don't like power cleans that much (I prefer full cleans) and I would hate to go with a set of 5+ for power cleans.  I usually don't do much more volume than triples with cleans.



Hey gtbmed, I can't remember where I read it, but somewhere on a Q&A, Jim had recommended doing cleans (hang or power) for triples.  5x3 really sticks in my memory.  I gave it a shot prior to deadlifts a few times.  It's a nice way to "wake-up" your system.

If I train at home, I'll do some box jumps (actually, it's more like jumping up on stacked up wooden palets.....) prior to my squating or deadlifting.  This is to someday help with my dream of dunking a basketball at under 6' and over 230lbs.......we'll see......


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## midwest216 (Sep 2, 2010)

I've never heard of this routine or the others mentioned above. I'm still new to lifting, usually I walk in and grab 2 volkswagons and lift them. No real science there, but I'm learning alot from what I read here.


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## Marat (Sep 2, 2010)

midwest216 said:


> usually I walk in and grab 2 volkswagons and lift them. No real science there, but I'm learning alot from what I read here.



lift heavy things.

probably better programming than what many people do anyways.


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