# Time from last inject to PCT, tren, prop, mast, anavar



## malfeasance (Sep 7, 2012)

Stopped tren and mast weeks ago, now just testosterone propionate and anavar.  How many days do you wait from last test p to starting PCT?


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## overburdened (Sep 7, 2012)

If you have nolva, you could start it right away(in theory).. The test is no very suppressive, and it will be out soon enough.  As long as the e2 from any aromatization is either blocked(nolva) and/or eliminated(AI)(though the combo will work better).. you can start pct... what do you have laid out for it?


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## malfeasance (Sep 7, 2012)

It was the tren I was worried about being suppressive.  Here is what I had laid out for it:

5,000 iu HCG before PCT
Clomid: 100/100/75/75/50/50
Nolva: 40/40/40/20/20/20
Aromasin: 25 mg ED


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## Jimmyinkedup (Sep 7, 2012)

3 days after last injection.
I dont like an ai in pct.


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## malfeasance (Sep 7, 2012)

Jimmyinkedup said:


> 3 days after last injection.


  I was thinking 3 or 4 days.


> I dont like an ai in pct.


  How do you get your estrogen down?  Doesn't a high estrogen level signal your body to stop producing testosterone?


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## Jimmyinkedup (Sep 7, 2012)

How is your estrogen level high with virtually zero test to aromatize to estrogen?


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## malfeasance (Sep 7, 2012)

Jimmyinkedup said:


> How is your estrogen level high with virtually zero test to aromatize to estrogen?


  I do not know how long it takes for elevated estrogen levels to decline on their own with no ai, so I cannot answer your question.

So why do you not like an ai in PCT?


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## Jimmyinkedup (Sep 7, 2012)

Run ai up to pct ....there wil be no estrogen..there is no test o aromatize. It relies on negative feedback to force the body to produce test. A condition already present since there is no estrogen present. Plus with serms blocking e recptoer forcing production of GnRH which forces production of LH /FSH ..then test.he ai is totally unnecessary. Dr Scally  - the foremost specialist on treating steroid induced andro pause (shutdown) has peer reviewed published studies and hundreds of case studies. He recommend clomid and novladex to be most effective. No ai


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## blergs. (Sep 7, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Stopped tren and mast weeks ago, now just testosterone propionate and anavar.  How many days do you wait from last test p to starting PCT?



start pct 3-4 days after last testp shot
i rec 4wks 50mg clomid 20mg tamox ed


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## malfeasance (Sep 7, 2012)

Jimmyinkedup said:


> Run ai up to pct ....there wil be no estrogen..there is no test o aromatize. It relies on negative feedback to force the body to produce test. A condition already present since there is no estrogen present. Plus with serms blocking e recptoer forcing production of GnRH which forces production of LH /FSH ..then test.he ai is totally unnecessary. Dr Scally  - the foremost specialist on treating steroid induced andro pause (shutdown) has peer reviewed published studies and hundreds of case studies. He recommend clomid and novladex to be most effective. No ai


 Ok, I realize Dr. Scally recommends Nolva, but I am thinking that your assumption that there is no estrogen is wrong.  There is a guy posting here in this forum right now about his recovery, and he has high estrogen with low testosterone.  His second test, just posted recently, shows that his testosterone is increasing and estrogen has decreased.  Heavyiron commented that less is aromatizing.  

I would think that reducing your estrogen would be beneficial to recovery, because, as you point out, it is this level of estrogen that tells the body how much test to produce.  Low estrogen means more testosterone is produced.  Wouldn't lowering it quicker and to a lower level get the body producing testosterone much more quickly, or is there something I am missing in thinking this through?


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## malfeasance (Sep 7, 2012)

Nevermind, I just re-read that thread, and his estrogen was below the normal reference range . . .


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## Jimmyinkedup (Sep 7, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Ok, I realize Dr. Scally recommends Nolva, but I am thinking that your assumption that there is no estrogen is wrong.  There is a guy posting here in this forum right now about his recovery, and he has high estrogen with low testosterone.  His second test, just posted recently, shows that his testosterone is increasing and estrogen has decreased.  Heavyiron commented that less is aromatizing.
> 
> I would think that reducing your estrogen would be beneficial to recovery, because, as you point out, it is this level of estrogen that tells the body how much test to produce.  Low estrogen means more testosterone is produced.  Wouldn't lowering it quicker and to a lower level get the body producing testosterone much more quickly, or is there something I am missing in thinking this through?



there will be virtually no e when pct starts - the body is already signaled to start. then serms selectively block the e receptor and trick the body to continue to produce test even when e becomes present. You need estrogen - you dont want to crush it. You hear all this lethargy etc during pct....low e many times. many times they are running an ai in pct.e helps lipid profile , sex drive etc. Lowering it when its already low is not prudent nor is there any benefit while you are running serms. I put my stock in Dr Scally ...not people on a forum. The man treats this condition and is the foremst specialist in the world. I think he has the optimal protocol down.
Either way this is a great topic for discussion.


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## malfeasance (Sep 17, 2012)

Jimmyinkedup said:


> 3 days after last injection.
> I dont like an ai in pct.




When do I bottom out?  I am now 11 days into PCT, and everything is good, libido is good, is the crash coming later?


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## moodyman1 (Sep 17, 2012)

An Aromatase Inhibitor, in theory, is worthless with PCT. An AI does NOTHING for estro already present. It does inhihibit test conversion to estro. During PCT your test should be bottomed out so there's really nothing for the AI to do.


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## malfeasance (Sep 18, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> When do I bottom out?  I am now 11 days into PCT, and everything is good, libido is good, is the crash coming later?



12 days in and all is well.  I hope this means that recovery will be very quick and effortless.


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## malfeasance (Sep 19, 2012)

Ok, at almost two weeks into PCT, no libido problems or anything.  How much longer is it going to be?


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## malfeasance (Sep 21, 2012)

Now more than two weeks in, and libido is normal (not on cycle normal).  

I am beginning to hope no major crash is coming.


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## Jimmyinkedup (Sep 21, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Now more than two weeks in, and libido is normal (not on cycle normal).
> 
> I am beginning to hope no major crash is coming.



Dont always believe what you read , everyone is different and recovers different. Not all "crash". Hopefully you are correct. Nice to follow your updates..not many "log" their pct ..I think its great.


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## malfeasance (Sep 21, 2012)

Jimmyinkedup said:


> Dont always believe what you read , everyone is different and recovers different. Not all "crash". Hopefully you are correct. Nice to follow your updates..not many "log" their pct ..I think its great.


Well, last time around was a terrible recovery - libido issues for months.  It was after a cycle that included Deca, though.  My joints felt great!  No more Deca.  I will maybe try NPP in the future.


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## Jimmyinkedup (Sep 21, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Well, last time around was a terrible recovery - libido issues for months.  It was after a cycle that included Deca, though.  My joints felt great!  No more Deca.  I will maybe try NPP in the future.



Deca is rough. I would always extend my pct to 6 weeks when i run deca.


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## exphys88 (Sep 21, 2012)

I never really do crash from cycles, even when my test levels are below 400.  I actually feel fine w low t except for low libido.


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## malfeasance (Sep 21, 2012)

exphys88 said:


> even when my test levels are below 400


  I was at 117 last time around!


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## BP2000 (Sep 21, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Well, last time around was a terrible recovery - libido issues for months.  It was after a cycle that included Deca, though.  My joints felt great!  No more Deca.  I will maybe try NPP in the future.



did you run caber with your cycle?  And did you keep estrogen low?  Keeping estrogen low during cycle is key for recovery.  Estrogen is 200x more supressive than Testosterone.  Many ppl let their estrogen get sky high during cycle which is not a good idea.


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## BP2000 (Sep 21, 2012)

moodyman1 said:


> An Aromatase Inhibitor, in theory, is worthless with PCT. An AI does NOTHING for estro already present. It does inhihibit test conversion to estro. During PCT your test should be bottomed out so there's really nothing for the AI to do.




The reason why some ppl use AI during PCT Is estrogen rebound.  It can happen with Armidex.  That is why you see some people use Aromasin during pCT because it is a suicide AI meaning their is no estrogen rebound.


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## malfeasance (Sep 25, 2012)

20 days and no crash . . .


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## malfeasance (Oct 3, 2012)

Jimmyinkedup said:


> Run ai up to pct ....there wil be no estrogen..there is no test o aromatize. It relies on negative feedback to force the body to produce test. A condition already present since there is no estrogen present. Plus with serms blocking e recptoer forcing production of GnRH which forces production of LH /FSH ..then test.he ai is totally unnecessary. Dr Scally  - the foremost specialist on treating steroid induced andro pause (shutdown) has peer reviewed published studies and hundreds of case studies. He recommend clomid and novladex to be most effective. No ai



Jimmyinkedup, I ran the aromasin for the first two weeks and then dropped it, mainly based on your input to this thread.  I am coming up on the end of week 4 of PCT, and I feel great.  I have tapered down the amounts shown above in the fourth week to:
Clomid 50
Nolva 20
and things are going so well I am considering stopping at the end of week 4.  

I had originally planned 6 weeks because I had so much trouble recovering from my last cycle (inc. Deca), and people posted on here that tren is suppressive like Deca and makes recovery difficult.  I was afraid, and the extended PCT was an overreaction.    I am also older than most people here, so I thought the issues last time might have been due to age and likely to repeat.

This cycle was prop, tren a, mast, and anavar.   I also continued the test out almost three weeks after stopping the tren, and almost two weeks after stopping the mast.  Anavar up to the last day.  A part of me believes that the easy recovery had to do with continuing the test, and I tapered it off during the last week.    Oh, and HCG!!!

Anyway, thoughts on stopping my PCT at the end of week 4, based on the above comments?


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## malfeasance (Oct 4, 2012)

Jimmyinkedup said:


> Nice to follow your updates..not many "log" their pct ..I think its great.


Ok, in the absence of any advice from others, I am going to stop PCT now (4 weeks in).  I think things will go well, but we'll see in a while.


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## Dath (Oct 4, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Ok, in the absence of any advice from others, I am going to stop PCT now (4 weeks in).  I think things will go well, but we'll see in a while.



Your the best judge on your body and feeling brother. Sounds great, do you plan to get blood work in 5-6 wks to see how you've recovered?


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## malfeasance (Oct 4, 2012)

Dath said:


> Your the best judge on your body and feeling brother. Sounds great, do you plan to get blood work in 5-6 wks to see how you've recovered?



I was thinking more like 8 weeks, but yes.


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## malfeasance (Oct 10, 2012)

Just as an update, bodyweight has stabilized in spite of the cardio, and libido is good following PCT . . .


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## malfeasance (Oct 12, 2012)

Hm m m m . . .  took forever to get it up and going last night . . .  I was really tired, but the wife was very persistent.  I hope this is not the sign of crashing hormone levels 10 days after stopping PCT.  We'll see.


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## malfeasance (Oct 22, 2012)

I think I was just tired.  Things seem back to about normal now.


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## malfeasance (Oct 26, 2012)

Twice a day lately - not bad for a middle aged man.  I guess recovery is going well.


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## exphys88 (Oct 26, 2012)

Shit, twice a day isn't bad for someone in their twenties.


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## malfeasance (Nov 21, 2012)

I am guessing fully recovered at this point.  No blood test yet, but feel great.


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