# Clen vs. ECA



## CRASHMAN (Dec 16, 2002)

pros? cons? 

what works better? (i know clens dead about 2 weeks then you have to take 2 off)

is it really worth it to find a dealer? 

what persevers mass better? 

just general knowlege i need before i try somethin and wiast money on it

how much clen would i need? 

how much comes in a box?

trusted brands?


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## crackerjack414 (Dec 16, 2002)

they are both beta 2 antagonisits i preffer clen myself


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## Mudge (Dec 17, 2002)

Crash, I'm older than you and I wont touch clen, no reason too! Are you actually considering it at all? Unless your seriously seriously overweight, which I'm doubting, I would not even give it a thought at your age, or at mine.


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## Mudge (Dec 17, 2002)

Clenbuterol: 

Description: Is available in 10 - 20 mcg tablets or in the .016 mg/gram Ventapulmin Vet variety. Clenbuterol is known as a sympathomimetic. These hormones are taken to mimic adrenaline and noradrenaline in the human body. Clenbuterol is a selective beta-2 agonist that is used to stimulate the beta-receptors in fat and muscle tissue in the body. Clenbuterol exhibits most of its effects on the stimulation of both type 2 and 3 beta-receptors. Clenbuterol is really one of bodybuilding's most misunderstood performance enhancement drugs. It is true that it is effective in helping to burn bodyfat but it is often been stated that clenbuterol is effective in causing anabolic gains and has in times even been compared to some of the weaker anabolic steroids. Books such as the World Anabolic Review, 1996, by P. Grunding and M. Bachmann state incorrectly that, "its effects, however, can by all means be compared to those of steroids. Similar to a combination of Winstrol Depot and Oxandrolone...." These statements are inaccurate and misleading to say the least. A lot of these claims as to the anabolic effects of clenbuterol are derived from studying the effects of clenbuterol on livestock. Clenbuterol is effective in increasing muscle mass and decreasing fat loss in animals. The problem with the variation in anabolic effects between humans and livestock is that livestock have an abundance of the type 3 beta receptors whereas humans have little if any of the type 3 beta receptors. These beta-3 receptors increases insulin secretion and sensitivity, causing more glucose and amino acids to be transported into skeletal muscle thus causing the anabolic effects that we, humans, just aren't seeing. As Dan Duchaine stated in his Muscle Media article on clenbuterol, "In those animal research studies showing an anabolic effect from clenbuterol, it's my guess the anabolism happens specifically when the beta2 receptor stops working. At that point, the beta3 increases and causes the anabolic effect through insulin mechanisms." Since humans, again, have either very little or no beta-3 receptors, there is no chance of this anabolic effect. Just another of the studies where everyone assumed that what works in animals must work in humans. This is just simply not the case with clenbuterol. Clenbuterol does work effectively as a fat burner though. It does this by slight increases in the body temperature. With each degree that the temperature in your body is raised from the use of clenbuterol, you will burn up approximately an extra 5% of maintenance calories. This makes it effective as a fat burner. Your body will fight this by cutting down on the amount of active thyroid in the body as well as through beta-receptor down regulation, which explains why you only have a limited effective period to take clenbuterol. While I am on the subject of beta-receptor down regulation, I would like to dispose of another myth. This involves the two on/two off cycling theory that I believe was originated by Bill Phillips in the Anabolic Reference Guide and has somehow made it's was into every other steroid book since then including the WAR and Physical Enhancement with an Edge. The two on-two off theory simply will not work because of one main reason: the half life of clenbuterol. This 2-on/2-off idea was a THEORY ONLY, not by a doctor or scientist, and not based on specific knowledge of clenbuterol, but derived by imitation from other drug's with shorter half lives. 

Clenbuterol has been reported as having a half life of about 2 days, but that is not actually correct, since it has biphasic elimination, with the half-life of the rapid phase being about 10 hours, and the slower phase being several days. Supposedly, this is one of the reasons the FDA never approved clenbuterol as an anti-asthmatic drug...the FDA frowns on drugs with long half-lives if drugs with more normal half-lives are available. So with a 2-on/2-off cycle you never have time to get enough of the clenbuterol out of your system for this theory to be reasonable. In actuality, it probably hasn't even dropped to 50% of your peak concentration before you are taking the drug again. With this all taken into account, there is no reason to think that this cycling would significantly reduce the problem of receptor desensitization. A more reasonable approach would be either one week on, one week off, or alternately, two weeks on two weeks off. The two week cycle has the disadvantage of a "crash" period afterwards. This crash period can be helped with the use of ephedrine to lessen the lethargy that you will experience. 

If you are interested in taking clenbuterol for anything other than fat loss then you might as well stay away from this compound. There is a lot of talk as to how clenbuterol compares to ephedrine as well. Most "experts" feel that clen gives a better bang for the buck than the ECA stack. It should be noted that clenbuterol???s results and effects are much shorter lived. They work through very similar mechanisms. Both products stimulate the beta-receptors but clenbuterol seems to be a more refined version, called a second generation beta-agonist drug, than ephedrine. Clenbuterol targets the proper receptors, being the beta-2 and 3 receptors than ephedrine more specifically which should in theory make clenbuterol more effective of a fat burner. Again, most of the so called "experts" say that clenbuterol is more effective than ephedrine. I, personally, get worse results with clen vs. the good old ECA stack. Clenbuterol also didn't blunt my hunger either and I ate more while taking it as well. I also seem to get much better effects out of cytomel as a fat burner as well. Even better than the ECA stack or clenbuterol. But, again, that is my personal opinion. Effective Dose: 80-140 mcgs. / day in split doses throughout the day. Anything over 140 mcg a day is overkill since the beta receptors can only take so much of a product and then more is just wasteful. 

Street Price: $.50 - 1.00 / tab. Fairly inexpensive in Mexico though. Spiropent is currently going for about $7.50/box, Novegam for $5.25/box, and Oxyflux for about $3.30/box. 

Effective Dose: A few drops under the tongue and not used for but a few weeks at a time. 

Street Price: Not a clue. Too hard to find. Even if I could find it I would not buy it.


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## cornfed (Dec 17, 2002)

Also, IP has "superclen" .2g tabs (200mcg). 
street price $35 for 25tabs


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## crackerjack414 (Dec 17, 2002)

yup super clen is good, ther all other guys who make it. I personaly dont care for IP products


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## cornfed (Dec 18, 2002)

Well, I'll get back to ya on my final opinion about it in january


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## gopro (Dec 20, 2002)

ECA gives better and more consistent results, especially over the long term. Go with ECA.


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## Martin Smolinsk (Dec 20, 2002)

What is ECA? I dont know why you are afriad of clen/spiropent/. I used it in my first cycle and Im gonna use it again. It fantastic. No problem with it. But I have to admit that the side effects are more "visible" than those of steroids.

Martin


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## gopro (Dec 21, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Martin Smolinsk *_
> What is ECA? I dont know why you are afriad of clen/spiropent/. I used it in my first cycle and Im gonna use it again. It fantastic. No problem with it. But I have to admit that the side effects are more "visible" than those of steroids.
> 
> Martin



ECA= ephedrine/caffeine/aspirin  Stack these 3 together in a ratio of 25mg E/250mg C/325mg A (aspirin is optional) for a potent fat burner. 

Nobody is "afraid" of clen...it is just that some people don't respond well to it, some people can't stand the side effects, and, its effects wear off after 2-3 weeks. ECAs effects actually get better over time.

Some people actually stack ECA and clen (dangerous), or they cycle between the two. Over the short term, clen is more potent, but over 8-12 weeks, I feel ECA is superior.


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## Martin Smolinsk (Dec 22, 2002)

Thats what I wanted to do, to combine clen, effedrine, caffeine and aspirine. Do you think I should not do it?


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## gopro (Dec 22, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Martin Smolinsk *_
> Thats what I wanted to do, to combine clen, effedrine, caffeine and aspirine. Do you think I should not do it?



All of them at the same time? Can be dangerous as there will be a tremendous amount of CNS stimulation and possible overload on the heart. I know people that do this, but I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND IT! Better to cycle between the two!


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## Snake_Eyes (Dec 22, 2002)

Just throw in some DNP and he'll be all set.


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## gopro (Dec 22, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> Just throw in some DNP and he'll be all set.



Well, I know we don't agree much, but here...yes we do...


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## Martin Smolinsk (Dec 23, 2002)

Gopro, and what about that combination without efedrine? Cool, isnt it? I dont want to be exposed to big troubles.


Martin


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## gopro (Dec 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Martin Smolinsk *_
> Gopro, and what about that combination without efedrine? Cool, isnt it? I dont want to be exposed to big troubles.
> 
> 
> Martin



There is a synergistic affect between ephdrine and caffeine. I don't believe the same synergism occurs with clen and caffeine, so the effect would simply be additive. I personally would use clen for 2 weeks then ECA for 2 weeks, back and forth.


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## Martin Smolinsk (Dec 24, 2002)

Hmmmmmmmmm, I will think about it. Thanks.

Well, Id like to ask you one more question. I can measure my blod pressure whenever I want. And I have some problems with it. It shows 160/80 /I hope these numbers are the same in the US/ which I think is raised, isnt it? Now Im off the first cycle. During the cycle it was raised, too. But now it is raised again, but the point is that I feel really OK, no problems with my head, training, evrythings all right. I was wondering whether it could be due to drinking coffe. Two teaspoons of coffe before every training. Should I not drink it? Or what should I do? Now, Im starting my second cycle with metandienon, depo-test and deca in january and I know it will be raised even more. Can you give me an advice? 
How can I influence my blood pressure - to be higher or lower?

Thanks a lot and MERRY XMAS!

Martin


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## gopro (Dec 26, 2002)

Normal BP is 120/80. I don't like that you are using stimulants and will be using steroids as well while having a raised BP. All stimulants raise BP and steroids that cause water retention can raise BP even more. Some guys will use diuretics to lower water retention, which may lower your BP, and others will use a drug called Catapres in order to lower BP. Also a low salt diet can help. Be very careful my friend...high BP is to be taken seriously!


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## Martin Smolinsk (Dec 27, 2002)

Thanks gopro, Ive never had problems with my blood pressure until I measured it a few days ago. I dont know whether I should go to a doctor..........because as I said, I feel all right. Really. What you said about steroids and BP - I know that, no news for me, but thanks. Low salt diet is what Im trying to focus on and what about eating garlic? Does it help?


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## gopro (Dec 27, 2002)

Garlic is very healthy. Whether it will have any significant effects on your BP is a question. You certainly can try and see!


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## Martin Smolinsk (Dec 28, 2002)

Yeah, and what about the drinking coffee? Should I stop it??? Or maybe restrict?
And the most important question: When shall I see results (lowered BP) if I start eating garlic, no salt, less coffee? Actually Ive already started.
BTW: 150/80 today, good, isnt it?


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## gopro (Dec 30, 2002)

Coffee would only cause a temporary rise in BP, but I'd say cut it out. Start taking some precautions and results should come fast...unless there is some problem you are not aware of.


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## Martin Smolinsk (Dec 30, 2002)

OK, Im gonna restrict drinking coffee only before each training of squats and deadlifts it means 2 times in 6 days. 

And thank you very much I will tell you how Im going on during my second cycle which Im starting next week

Martin


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## gopro (Dec 31, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Martin Smolinsk *_
> OK, Im gonna restrict drinking coffee only before each training of squats and deadlifts it means 2 times in 6 days.
> 
> And thank you very much I will tell you how Im going on during my second cycle which Im starting next week
> ...


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## Martin Smolinsk (Jan 1, 2003)

Gopro, one more question comes to my mind: what about raised BP and eating eggs? I eat 7 egg whites and 4 yolks every day before I go to sleep.     ..............???


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## gopro (Jan 1, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Martin Smolinsk *_
> Gopro, one more question comes to my mind: what about raised BP and eating eggs? I eat 7 egg whites and 4 yolks every day before I go to sleep.     ..............???



Only problem with eggs is that they are high in sodium.


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## BUSTINOUT (Jan 1, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Normal BP is 120/80. I don't like that you are using stimulants and will be using steroids as well while having a raised BP. All stimulants raise BP and steroids that cause water retention can raise BP even more. Some guys will use diuretics to lower water retention, which may lower your BP, and others will use a drug called Catapres in order to lower BP. Also a low salt diet can help. Be very careful my friend...high BP is to be taken seriously!



One thing you failed to mention GP, is whether or not he is married or has gf.  If so, his blood pressure is gonna be through the roof and he is a perfect candidate for a stroke at any moment.   Run Forest, RUN!!!!


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## Martin Smolinsk (Jan 2, 2003)

Are you kidding?


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## Arnold (Jan 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Martin Smolinsk *_
> Are you kidding?



no, I am married and it's true!


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## BUSTINOUT (Jan 2, 2003)

Prince knows what I'm saying. lmao


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## LAM (Jan 2, 2003)

I prefer clen over ECA.  I take 150 mcgs daily using 2 weeks on clen then use ECA for 2 weeks.


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## gopro (Jan 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> One thing you failed to mention GP, is whether or not he is married or has gf.  If so, his blood pressure is gonna be through the roof and he is a perfect candidate for a stroke at any moment.   Run Forest, RUN!!!!



How true...how f'n true!


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## gopro (Jan 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by LAM *_
> I prefer clen over ECA.  I take 150 mcgs daily using 2 weeks on clen then use ECA for 2 weeks.



Well, it seems that you don't prefer clen, but believe in cycling between the two...correct?


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## Martin Smolinsk (Jan 3, 2003)

Hmmmmmmmm, interesting.


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## Martin Smolinsk (Jan 3, 2003)

BTW: yeah, I have a girlfriend


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## Martin Smolinsk (Jan 4, 2003)

Gopro and what s the problem with sodium? Water retention, I suppose.


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## w8lifter (Jan 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BO *_
> One thing you failed to mention GP, is whether or not he is married or has gf. If so, his blood pressure is gonna be through the roof and he is a perfect candidate for a stroke at any moment. Run Forest, RUN!!!!





> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> no, I am married and it's true!




 That's fuqqing funny! LOL


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## gopro (Jan 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Martin Smolinsk *_
> Gopro and what s the problem with sodium? Water retention, I suppose.



Well, sodium does cause water retention which in turn raises blood pressure.


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## Striking_Cobra (Jan 15, 2003)

GP or anyone else, would you say Clen stacked with a non-ephedra product would be okay to do since it may decrease appetite and not elevate heart rate as much as an ephedra product would?


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## MJ23 (Jan 15, 2003)

I am married too and I can Attest. 


Also, I know we are not taking votes but I say ECA / or T3


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## MJ23 (Jan 15, 2003)

Striking Cobra - How are you doing dude?

no more muscle mag


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## Striking_Cobra (Jan 15, 2003)

Sup mj.  Just browsin around checkin out the scenery.


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## cornfed (Jan 15, 2003)

Hola.

My opinion is that the hardest way to co would be a mix.

week 1-5 
T3 pyramid .25mcg (4days), .5(4d), .75(4d), 100(11d), .75(4), .5(4), .25(4)

wks 1,2,5,6
clen up to 150-200 (or by tolerance)

wks 3,4,7,8
NYCA/ECA w/ sodium usinate

wks 7-10
gugglesterones


Just my thoughts, though I tend to go heavy w/ things.


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## gopro (Jan 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Striking_Cobra *_
> GP or anyone else, would you say Clen stacked with a non-ephedra product would be okay to do since it may decrease appetite and not elevate heart rate as much as an ephedra product would?




Yes, you can stack clen with a stimulant free product and be ok...unless you are extremely sensitive.


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## cornfed (Jan 17, 2003)

Umm... does it make me crazy that I mixed NYCA  and clen once?     did I mention the once part?


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## gopro (Jan 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> Umm... does it make me crazy that I mixed NYCA  and clen once?     did I mention the once part?



You are only crazy if you try it twice my man!


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## Stacey (Jan 22, 2003)

can a woman take ECA??


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## cornfed (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> You are only crazy if you try it twice my man!




and Princess, yes.


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## Stacey (Jan 22, 2003)

COOL THANKS~ Sooo is that illegal tooo???


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## Mudge (Jan 22, 2003)

ECA? You can still get that stuff at GNC, so it should not be illegal, not yet.


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## Stacey (Jan 22, 2003)

Ohh cool!! Thanks! Is there a brand I should get?


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## Robboe (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> Umm... does it make me crazy that I mixed NYCA  and clen once?     did I mention the once part?



Foolish sounds more apt.

And idiocy that you post it in such jest.


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> And idiocy that you post it in such jest.



jest? 

90% of your posts are jest!


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## Mudge (Jan 22, 2003)

Princess, try in the supplement forum - there are various brands and most of them are getting away from or HAVE gotten away from even ephedra, much less ephedrine, and thusly may not be that affective.

So, I'm sure there must be something out there decent, I just dont know what it is offhand. I was using Twin Labs Ripped Fuel, people talked about it giving them an energy kick etc, and I got nothing from it, I dont seem to respond well it seems 

My vesion had EPHEDRA instead of EPHEDRINE which maybe the Canadians have?


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## cornfed (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Foolish sounds more apt.
> 
> And idiocy that you post it in such jest.


Well, to be totally candid, my friend, it was not as foolish as I jested.  You see, my body tends to stabilize more easily than your average joe in the subject of tolerance to drugs or any substance...w/ the exception of carbs LOL.  I only added in the NYCA after the 10th day of the 2wker and only b/c there was zero percievable effect of the drug whether by body temp or by resting heart rate.  Since that time, I only carry out clen cycles of 10 days on 10 days off as it better suits my body's tolerances.  I _was_ making the comment in jest, though I did not explain the methodology or philosophical/theoretical aspect of my thought process and actions.  I left that part out b/c I was striving for a humorous stab at myself rather than a mere jest about the gravity of the subject.


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## gopro (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> Well, to be totally candid, my friend, it was not as foolish as I jested.  You see, my body tends to stabilize more easily than your average joe in the subject of tolerance to drugs or any substance...w/ the exception of carbs LOL.  I only added in the NYCA after the 10th day of the 2wker and only b/c there was zero percievable effect of the drug whether by body temp or by resting heart rate.  Since that time, I only carry out clen cycles of 10 days on 10 days off as it better suits my body's tolerances.  I _was_ making the comment in jest, though I did not explain the methodology or philosophical/theoretical aspect of my thought process and actions.  I left that part out b/c I was striving for a humorous stab at myself rather than a mere jest about the gravity of the subject.



We all know this cornfed, but TCD just HAS to be difficult. He lacks glutamine in his diet.


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## cornfed (Jan 22, 2003)

I know, bud... I like TCD ...  ... now I know that's gonna get twised around... but I figured I'd clarify so that noone would run out and take 100-150mg of E or NorE while taking .2mg of clen... but I guess that'd only matter if my opinion meant sh!t to anyone here anywho


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## cornfed (Jan 22, 2003)

So is glutamine sh!t or what do you really think?


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## Robboe (Jan 23, 2003)

Regardless of your intentions, if someone comes in this thread without the knoweldge and reads that thinking if it's ok for you then it'll be ok for them, then they may find themselves in a bit of trouble.

Mixing ephedrine with Yohimbine can be bad enough. Mixing a potentially much more potent drug such as clen with Yohimbine is just idiocy from my perspective. And if that person had existing heart problems then they may be in even more shit.

And while you may have not mixed them from day one, you still gave the impression of cycling them throughout.

As a moderator you also automatically gain the respect from newer lifters/board members, so they may be thinking you are giving the right kind of advice.

And i'm not having a go at your person, just that post.


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## Robboe (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> My vesion had EPHEDRA instead of EPHEDRINE which maybe the Canadians have?



Ephedrine is just the active part of ephedra (like caffiene from coffee or yohimbine from yohimbe). 

Ephedra is usually standardised to 8% ephedrine, so supps containing 'ephedra' usually have it in amounts to give about 100-200mg ephedrine, just like those supps that have ephedrine have a straight 100-200mg ephedrine.


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## cornfed (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> I know, bud... I like TCD ...  ... now I know that's gonna get twised around... but I figured I'd clarify so that noone would run out and take 100-150mg of E or NorE while taking .2mg of clen... but I guess that'd only matter if my opinion meant sh!t to anyone here anywho


any need to repeat myself there, bud? 

IT IS BAD 

now fuqqin' chill already


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## Robboe (Jan 23, 2003)

Didn't quite catch that man.


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## cornfed (Jan 23, 2003)

K, I'll let it slide this once


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## Robboe (Jan 23, 2003)

Bah!

Ruined the entire joke.

Have you not seen Fight Club, good Sir?


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## cornfed (Jan 23, 2003)

Hate Brad Pitt   Sorry


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## Robboe (Jan 23, 2003)

He's my hero.


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## cornfed (Jan 23, 2003)

Mine is John Klease (sp?)


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## Robboe (Jan 25, 2003)

Monty Python?


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## cornfed (Jan 25, 2003)

Yep, my inspiration... LOL


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## Robboe (Jan 26, 2003)

The Ministry of funny walks...


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## gopro (Jan 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Monty Python?



Monty Python is funny shit! Betcha John Kleese used clen and eca when making those films...


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## Robboe (Jan 26, 2003)

I'm betting John Cleese was on a little more than that.


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## cornfed (Jan 27, 2003)

I've been on a Monty Python binge for the last few days and my sides have yet to heal


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## gopro (Jan 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I'm betting John Cleese was on a little more than that.



Probably...


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## bryker12 (Jan 23, 2009)

I am new this site and am looking for some help. I'm 28 just under 5 '2'. my weight is down to 112 with 12% bf. I've decided to compete in figure in april/may. I go to a small gym and the trainers aren't really experienced with training for competition. My trainer is an old wrestling coach and only a hand full of people from the gym have ever competed. None of whom would be any help to me. I can rely on my trainer to help develop my body and I do my own nutrition.

I do 3 low days of 1300 with a 50p/25c/25f with 1 high day 1800 30p/50c/20f. I carb and calorie taper on low days.

I started taking ECA a few weeks before xmas and decided this was want I wanted to stick with through my training. I relaxed through the end of dec and early  jan and started back on my nutrition cycle and the ECA stack jan 10th.

I feel like I am missing out on proper supplementing. Should I be taking Creatine? HMB? a pump product?

Also is ECA my best coice? I've been reading a lot about Clen or Cytomel.

If you wouldn't mind giving me your opinion or any advice I would really appreciate it.


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## Built (Jan 23, 2009)

First up - hello

Second - you have posted the exact same question in three threads. 

Third - your fats are too low

and finally, there is no way you are at 12% now. Figure competitors are 12% on stage. How much weight are you looking to drop, and describe your training?


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## bryker12 (Jan 23, 2009)

Hi.

Sorry about the 3 posts. I was just trying to find different places where someone might see it.

I had my bf taken by a certified trainer at another gym with the skin fold method. With my measurements and the formula he used it came it 12.46%

tricep- 11
shld blade-5
pelvis crest-4
stomach-8
thigh-15

As far as what weight I want to lose I'm not sure at this point. On 10-1-08 I was 130 and by 12-24-08 I was 112. I know I have more to lose but I didn't know how much lower.

On m,w,f, I do cardio for 1 hr with abs. I was doing more HIIT but since I started on the ECA I switched to a longer consistant pace.

I lift with my trainer on t, th, sat. We do chest,bi,tri with a lift leg. Then shoulders and back with a cardio leg. 

I am not supplementing right and I'm not sure what would be best.

Thanks alot


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## Built (Jan 23, 2009)

At 12% on your current diet and current training, you will have lost your period by now.

You will have profound vascularity through your entire upper body - delts, biceps, lats, back, and abs, possibly also into your groin and even parts of your legs depending upon how and where you carry your bodyfat. 

If this matches what you see in the mirror, then I believe you. If not, you aren't at 12%. For reference, if you click on my profile, I'm at 14% in that shot, and this was confirmed by x-ray. Note the uneven distribution of bodyfat on my body - upper is ripped to shreds, lower is still quite smooth. But enough about the bain of MY existance! Back to you… 

You have told me bodyparts, not how you train. 

Can you please outline, in detail, your training?

Monday: lifts performed, rep range, weight used, sets; cardio type and duration if performed. Calories, timing of meals. 
Tuesday: etc

Thanks


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## bryker12 (Jan 23, 2009)

That is not what matches in the mirror. I am cut through my upper body with some vascularity in shoulders, forearms and chest and hold weight through lower body. The skin on my upperbody is tight.My legs show small amount of muscle. They look like I have more muscle when I wear a tight pant but I don't feel like the skin it tight.  My body is thin. Pants size is 2. U can see the top 4 abs with a small V line in my lower abs but that doesn't always show.

What other method should I use to get an accurate bf %?

My meals are 3-4 hours apart. I do ECA every 3 hours. On a low day my first meal has the most calories and carbs then I taper through the day, on my high day meals are all about the some in calories.

I'm not supplementing anything before/after I lift

As far as my lifting I don;t keep track, my trainer does. We do if different every time we lift and it depends on how my body is that day for weight and reps but I can give a general detail.

My rest period with a super set is how long it takes for me to run 2 sets of steps.

shoulders and back together normally supersets. Sometimes all shoulders first, sometimes all back first, sometimes one of each.
Shoulders- dumbell press. start out with 30's reps 10. sometimes 2nd set with 30's. then 25's for 10-12 reps.

That is normally super set-ed with the shoulder press machine with a close grip. starting at 50lb for 8-10 reps then down from that. Sometimes while I'm doing the set he will take off 2.5lbs at a time to blow out the set.

Seated side lat. 3-4 sets 8-10 reps with 8-12lbs. Depending on how fatigued.

Back.
Lat pulldown-underhand grip with slight tilt back. Start with 100lb for 10 reps then down from there. 3-4 sets.

Lat pullhand overhand grip. Start with 90lb for 10 reps. 3-4 sets

Seated row. sometimes inside or outside grip. Start with 70lb for 10 reps. 3-4 sets. 

Then a cardio leg. Total time period of 30 min. could be anything from laps of walking lunges holding 8-20lbs. Running steps. Running hills. Intervals on the bike or eliptical. 5-10 min periods of back lunges. Ball squats. 

Chest Bi and Tri together. Now I just started back with chest. I had a back surgery 2 months ago and couldn't lay flat. Same thing as far as supersets. Like yesterday I did chest,bi,tri with no rest inbetween

Chest-dumbell inline. Start with 30's for ten reps. 3-4 sets. Chest press machine. Start with 80lb for 10 reps 3-4 sets.

Bi- Standing straight bar- 15lbs on each side. 10 reps 3-4 sets
  Concentration curl. Start with 20lb for 8 reps 3-4 sets
   Seated Bi machine-Start with 50 for 8-10 reps 3-4 sets
   Standing curl on cable crossover machine- start with 30lb on each side

Tri- Eyeballs- start with 12.5lb on each side 8-10 reps 3-4 sets
      Kickbacks. Sometimes single or double 8-12 lbs 2-3 sets
      Seated Dip machine- Start at 90lb for 8-10 reps 3 sets
      Pushdowns with triangle bar. Start at 80lb 8-10 reps 3 sets

Lift leg- Also just started back with legs because of my back surgery.

Hamstring curl machine-30-40lbs 10 reps 2-3 sets
Leg ext with toes pointed up- 40lbs 12 reps with a 3-5 sec hold at top. 3 sets
Leg press-150-170 lbs 10-12 reps 3-4 sets.

Sometimes in between I'll have to run a few steps or do ball squats.

When I do cardio I do 45-60 min. Normally on the eliptical. levels 3-5-7-9-5-7-9-7-7-5-9 at 5 min intervals. Sometimes after 40 min I'll jump on the bike for 20 min.

 Please let me know if I left anything out.

Thanks again


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## Built (Jan 23, 2009)

bryker12 said:


> That is not what matches in the mirror. I am cut through my upper body with some vascularity in shoulders, forearms and chest and hold weight through lower body. The skin on my upperbody is tight.My legs show small amount of muscle. They look like I have more muscle when I wear a tight pant but I don't feel like the skin it tight.  My body is thin. Pants size is 2. U can see the top 4 abs with a small V line in my lower abs but that doesn't always show.
> 
> What other method should I use to get an accurate bf %?


DEXA, but it doesn't really matter. You will know when you have achieved the look. From what you said, you appear to carry your bodyfat the same way I do. You're probably around 16%, which IS lean, make no mistake. 

How about this - why not simply assume you're 16% and diet down to the weight you'd have to be to hit 12%? For you, this would be about 105 pounds. 

Assume you do everything right and stop trying to monitor your progress with bodyfat testing. The estimation methods just aren't helpful to you at this point. 



bryker12 said:


> My meals are 3-4 hours apart.


Any particular reason for this? 


bryker12 said:


> I do ECA every 3 hours. On a low day my first meal has the most calories and carbs then I taper through the day, on my high day meals are all about the some in calories.


Why would you want carbs early in the day on a low day? That would just make you hungry all day!


bryker12 said:


> I'm not supplementing anything before/after I lift


No food either? 


bryker12 said:


> As far as my lifting I don;t keep track, my trainer does. We do if different every time we lift and it depends on how my body is that day for weight and reps but I can give a general detail.
> 
> My rest period with a super set is how long it takes for me to run 2 sets of steps.
> 
> ...


Lean as you are, your training should mostly be low-rep heavy compounds with long rest periods from this point forward. The high-rep training you are doing is going to chew through what little muscle you have, unless you were on AAS. 


bryker12 said:


> That is normally super set-ed with the shoulder press machine with a close grip. starting at 50lb for 8-10 reps then down from that. Sometimes while I'm doing the set he will take off 2.5lbs at a time to blow out the set.
> 
> Seated side lat. 3-4 sets 8-10 reps with 8-12lbs. Depending on how fatigued.
> 
> ...


Useless movment. These should be deadlifts, heavy. 


bryker12 said:


> Leg ext with toes pointed up- 40lbs 12 reps with a 3-5 sec hold at top. 3 sets


Also a lousy movement. Ditch. 


bryker12 said:


> Leg press-150-170 lbs 10-12 reps 3-4 sets.


This should be squats, heavy, low rep. 


bryker12 said:


> Sometimes in between I'll have to run a few steps or do ball squats.


WHY???


bryker12 said:


> When I do cardio I do 45-60 min. Normally on the eliptical. levels 3-5-7-9-5-7-9-7-7-5-9 at 5 min intervals. Sometimes after 40 min I'll jump on the bike for 20 min.
> 
> Please let me know if I left anything out.
> 
> Thanks again


Thank you for the excruciating detail. 

Your training and diet are best set up for assisted athletes with a great deal of bodyfat to lose. 

You were asking about cytomel eariler - that would be a big "no". You need to be running AAS with cytomel. 

Cytomel chews through everything - fat AND muscle. You need anabolics and low-rep training to protect your lean mass, and you are doing neither of these things. 

As a natural female, it is inappriate for you to be performing so much cardio and such high-rep training. I realize you are in figure, but you will lose what little muscle you have doing this - and wear yourself to a pulp. 

Have you competed before?


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## bryker12 (Jan 23, 2009)

I have to run out so I'll reply with the answers. I'm willing to try or change anything for gains. Thanks again and I'll be back on in a few hours


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## bryker12 (Jan 23, 2009)

OK. First thanks you such detailed answers

Ok on bringing my weight down to 105 and not going by my bf to monitor. My implants weight almost 3lbs together so should I take that into account?

As far as my nutrition, I developed my current diet after reading Tom Venuto's book- Burn the fat feed the muscle. Through that, other reading and past results my body type is endomorph. So I can be carb sensiitive. Eating every 3-4 hours seems to help keep my metaoblism up. 

I do calorie and carb tapering because I was afraid to have to much in my system late because with my slower metabolism my body wouldn't work through it. So in meal 1 and 2 I have starchy carbs and the rest come from fibrosis carbs

I don't feel hungry through the day and now with the ECA I never feel hungry. (well not never) not often.

Now on very 4th day I do starchy carbs all through the day.

One of my meals normally falls around 3:30 and I go to the gym at 4:30 then we do dinner around 7:30. So that is my nutrition around my working out. See no supplementing. Don't my muscles need something more?

I see your point on my reps. I know that less reps heavier weight build more muscle.

Now on my legs I'm not cleared to squat heavy or anything that would act as an weighted hyperextention yet so that is why I was doing the leg press and ext and ham curl.

And as far as him making me do squats or steps in between. I don't know why.

No I have not competed before. I feel like I have a lot of work to do.

You don't think I need the cardio to keep my weight down?

Got it on the Cytomel.

What about Clenbuterol?

And what are your thoughts on ECA? Should I be using a cycle on that?


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## Built (Jan 23, 2009)

bryker12 said:


> OK. First thanks you such detailed answers
> 
> Ok on bringing my weight down to 105 and not going by my bf to monitor. My implants weight almost 3lbs together so should I take that into account?


Treat them as LBM that will never leave and don't consider their weight. 


bryker12 said:


> As far as my nutrition, I developed my current diet after reading Tom Venuto's book- Burn the fat feed the muscle. Through that, other reading and past results my body type is endomorph. So I can be carb sensiitive. Eating every 3-4 hours seems to help keep my metaoblism up.


No, it doesn't. Meal frequency does nothing to increase or decrease metabolism. If you feel the need to eat this frequently, you may wish to eat larger meals and or change your nutrient mix toward higher protein and fat and lower carbs. This can be particularly important for women - estrogen makes us more insulin resistant than men. I'd ditch AM carbs entirely, too, unless you lift in the AM. Easier to manage appetite if you eschew all but pre and or post lifting carbs. 


bryker12 said:


> I do calorie and carb tapering because I was afraid to have to much in my system late because with my slower metabolism my body wouldn't work through it. So in meal 1 and 2 I have starchy carbs and the rest come from fibrosis carbs


There is no reason whatsoever to taper calories in the evening - you don't store it any differently if you eat at night than if you eat in the morning. When cutting I ditch my breakfast and eat a meal at bedtime. It's WAY more comfortable if I get to look forward to being full every night!


bryker12 said:


> I don't feel hungry through the day and now with the ECA I never feel hungry. (well not never) not often.
> 
> Now on very 4th day I do starchy carbs all through the day.


Not sure what's all that magical about every forth day, but that's fine. 


bryker12 said:


> One of my meals normally falls around 3:30 and I go to the gym at 4:30 then we do dinner around 7:30. So that is my nutrition around my working out. See no supplementing. Don't my muscles need something more?



They need food... 

What else would they need?



bryker12 said:


> I see your point on my reps. I know that less reps heavier weight build more muscle.


No they don't. 

FOOD builds muscle. 

Heavy weights signals the body to retain muscle while cutting. You're not building ANY muscle. None. In fact, you're losing muscle from this point, no matter WHAT you do. 

In a caloric deficit, short, heavy, low-rep workouts will just minimize this. 



bryker12 said:


> Now on my legs I'm not cleared to squat heavy or anything that would act as an weighted hyperextention yet so that is why I was doing the leg press and ext and ham curl.


Cleared? 



bryker12 said:


> And as far as him making me do squats or steps in between. I don't know why.


He's trying to exercise off the weight. He's displaying his ignorance. 


bryker12 said:


> No I have not competed before. I feel like I have a lot of work to do.
> 
> You don't think I need the cardio to keep my weight down?


Cardio teaches your body to become efficient. It burns very little fat. Why do you think you need it to keep your weight down? 


bryker12 said:


> Got it on the Cytomel.
> 
> What about Clenbuterol?
> 
> And what are your thoughts on ECA? Should I be using a cycle on that?


My understanding is that clen is not different enough from ECA to be worth it. 

Really, if you find your appetite is well-controlled on ECA, leave it alone. Neither really burns fat to any appreciable extent, but ECA can be helpful to control hunger.

Your training is completely inappropriate to your goals. I'm sorry to hear what your trainer has you doing. 

I urge you to reevaluate your diet, and do some reading before you ruin your health and your body with the overtraining and undernutrition you are currently experiencing.


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## bryker12 (Jan 23, 2009)

Built said:


> Treat them as LBM that will never leave and don't consider their weight.
> 
> No, it doesn't. Meal frequency does nothing to increase or decrease metabolism. If you feel the need to eat this frequently, you may wish to eat larger meals and or change your nutrient mix toward higher protein and fat and lower carbs. This can be particularly important for women - estrogen makes us more insulin resistant than men. I'd ditch AM carbs entirely, too, unless you lift in the AM. Easier to manage appetite if you eschew all but pre and or post lifting carbs.
> 
> ...



*Do you have any suggestions on where I should start with my reading? I'm very concerned at this point.*


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## Built (Jan 23, 2009)

What article told you to throw in the towel?

If you ditch breakfast, eat when you need to. Protein and fat, no carbs. WAY MORE COMFORTABLE. 

Have a light protein and carb meal about an hour before you train, and the rest of your carbs in the meal immediately after you train. 

I'm not saying you're not putting on any muscle because your training is wrong. 

I'm saying you're not putting on any muscle because you're cutting! (Nobody puts on muscle while cutting - not unless you're a novice, overweight lifter or on juice.)

Cutting, the focus changes from "trying to gain muscle" to "trying not to lose muscle". 

"Getting used to" low carb isn't necessarily a bad thing, and you can not trick your body - but you CAN work with it. 

How many calories do you really think you can burn off with all that cardio that you do? You hardy weigh anything and you're used to it. You MIGHT burn off 250 calories in 45 minutes of cardio. If all of it comes from fat (it doesn't), that's a whole - gasp - OUNCE of bodyfat you've dropped!

Sadly, in women, this overstimulates appetite; you're better off just not eating those calories. Effects of exercise intensity on food intake and appetite in women -- Pomerleau et al. 80 (5): 1230 -- American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

I don't want you doing hypers at all. GHRs would do you a world of good, though. And leg press is harder on your back than squats.


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## AlphaStrength50 (Jan 31, 2014)

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