# Tribulus & 6-OXO?



## NJ-Chris (Jul 2, 2004)

Would there be a benefit to taking Tribulus & 6-OXO as a cycle? If yes should they be taken together - or Tribulus for the 1st 6-8 weeks followed by a few weeks on the 6-OXO? Thinking of trying this b/c I'm trying to avoid taking any pro-hormones.

Age 37, 5'10", 205 dieted down from 220lbs

Thanks for your help!! NJ-Chris


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## Arnold (Jul 2, 2004)

yes, as long aas it's high quality Tribulus with 20% Protodioscin, like the product I am producing: http://ironmaglabs.com/anabolic-matrix.html


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## NJ-Chris (Jul 2, 2004)

Take them together? - or Tribulus for the 1st 6-8 weeks followed by a few weeks on the 6-OXO?

thanks again


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## redspy (Jul 2, 2004)

I don't think you'll see any results from 6-OXO for anything other than PCT.  As for Trib I've never seen any decent studies proving it increases luteinizing hormone like the marketing suggests.

 If you're really convinced this is a good idea you might consider Instone Nutrition's Forza-T, which contains 6-OXO, Trib and ZMA.


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## Arnold (Jul 2, 2004)

NJ-Chris said:
			
		

> Take them together?



Yes, take them together, I would say for a 4 week cycle.


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## Arnold (Jul 2, 2004)

redspy said:
			
		

> If you're really convinced this is a good idea you might consider Instone Nutrition's Forza-T, which contains 6-OXO, Trib and ZMA.



there is not enough Tribulus in Forza-T to be effective unless you took 3 doses per day (1 bottle would last 5 days) which would be 900mg's of 6-OXO, which is much higher than needed, and putting ZMA in there was just plain stupid, a waste actually.


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## Arnold (Jul 2, 2004)

actually even 3 doses would not really be enough Tribulus, they only put 190mg's in there.


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## Arnold (Jul 2, 2004)

redspy said:
			
		

> As for Trib I've never seen any decent studies proving it increases luteinizing hormone like the marketing suggests.



I am not going to argue with that, but this is the best I can give you: http://ironmaglabs.com/articles_tribulus.html 

I think once the andro ban goes into effect we're going to see a lot more supplements like Triublus hitting the market.


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## brodus (Jul 2, 2004)

I agree with Prince.  There will most certainly be a flood of Trib. products post-ban.

I have actually read a translated version of the Russian study on LH and Tribulus, and it does raise LH levels.  

I also have take sizable doses of Trib. @ 45% protod., and I feel it works well in a PCT protocol.  I really don't care what people say about it, because it works for me, it's cheap, and it's legal.


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## Arnold (Jul 2, 2004)

brodus said:
			
		

> I also have take sizable doses of Trib. @ 45% protod



damn, do you remember the brand? it was expensive and difficult for me to get 20% protodiscin in mine.


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## brodus (Jul 2, 2004)

Yeah, same brand as the Vitamin C you were selling: NOW Foods:

Check it out:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/now/trib.html


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## redspy (Jul 2, 2004)

brodus said:
			
		

> I have actually read a translated version of the Russian study on LH and Tribulus, and it does raise LH levels.


 But the key question is: did the LH have any measurable effect stimulating an increase in free test levels, which is what we're all looking for? 

 Personally I don't think the dosage matters as it isn't an effective supplement.  Perhaps someone can show me a valid study and I'll eat humble pie.


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## Arnold (Jul 2, 2004)

oh, that is not 20% proto., it's 45% saponins, not the same thing at all, if it were it would be more expensive than $8.49

you will definitely have to try Anabolic-Matrix! it is a true 20% proto. and 70% saponins. and 750mg's per dose!


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## redspy (Jul 2, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> I am not going to argue with that, but this is the best I can give you: http://ironmaglabs.com/articles_tribulus.html


 Okay, I'll take a look and also check out Pubmed.

 I'm not trying to diss your products, once you have a good line up I'll be one of the first to check them out.


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## Arnold (Jul 2, 2004)

redspy said:
			
		

> Perhaps someone can show me a valid study and I'll eat humble pie.



I cannot show you any studies on M1T but I can guarantee the shit works as well as any illegal oral steroid.


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## brodus (Jul 2, 2004)

Oops, I stand corrected.  I didn't realize the difference between saponins and protod.

That must be some potent shiaat!  I can feel the stuff I'm using, so a 75% extract must be intense.

Re: M1T studies: Yeah, I was really tied up in the studies until I tried it, and then I realized just how powerful it is.  I added something like 8 pounds in 2 weeks @ 5mg a day, and kept 6.5.

Re: Tribulus: For $8.50 you can buy a bottle and see for yourself.  That's the best advice I can give.  It is a small investment.  NO I DON'T SELL IT OR WORK FOR ANY RETAILERS--this is what I would advise anyone.


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## redspy (Jul 2, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> I cannot show you any studies on M1T but I can guarantee the shit works as well as any illegal oral steroid.


 I agree sometimes you have to make a leap of faith or trust in anecdotal evidence from others, but I'm at a point where I don't want to waste money on supplements.  When sticking with the basics like whey protein, creatine, a multivitamin etc you can't go wrong.  I've tried PHs even though there are  few studies that prove they are effective and worth the side effects.  Even with good PCT, diet and intense workouts I curious if I will sustain those gains, only time will tell I guess.


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## redspy (Jul 2, 2004)

> Re: Tribulus: For $8.50 you can buy a bottle and see for yourself. That's the best advice I can give. It is a small investment. NO I DON'T SELL IT OR WORK FOR ANY RETAILERS--this is what I would advise anyone.


 What effects did you see?  I have sampled one bottle (ON's) and the only thing I noticed was serious woody's in the morning, I guess that ties into the studies Prince posted.


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## Arnold (Jul 2, 2004)

well, even Tribulus is only going to raise your T levels to "high normal", but long term that is very beneficial, and the older you get the more beneficial a supplement like the one I am making will be, also for PCT as brodus talked about.

if your T levels are at 600ng (that is normal) right now and a product like mine raises them to 900ng is that not going to help you make gains long term? I think so.


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## redspy (Jul 2, 2004)

> if your T levels are at 600ng (that is normal) right now and a product like mine raises them to 900ng is that not going to help you make gains long term? I think so.


 Okay, send a free sample and cover my bloodwork costs and you've got a deal j/k


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## Arnold (Jul 2, 2004)

unless you have insurance to cover it, a T test is about $90.00 

but if you're serious I will consider doing this.


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## redspy (Jul 2, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> unless you have insurance to cover it, a T test is about $90.00
> 
> but if you're serious I will consider doing this.


 I will definitely try this in a few weeks - thanks for the offer of product.  I'm one week into PCT now so my test levels are suppressed and that would obviously skew the results.  After 3 more weeks of Nolva and some additional time let's talk.  Cheers.


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## Arnold (Jul 2, 2004)

okay, I am still waiting on my product, so a few weeks would be good.

one of the ingrediants is holding up the production for a month now.


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## brodus (Jul 17, 2004)

Prince:
  Check this out-->minimum 15% protod., 80%+ total sponinis: 50 GRAMS for $25

https://www2.acadia.net/cgi-bin/BAC/web_store.cgi?product=New&cart_id=243835_5857


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## V Player (Jul 17, 2004)

Im lost here. What are saponins and prod? And how can you tell what percentage there are in a bottle? Im sitting here looking at a label from a Vitamin Shoppe Tribulus and I see nothing as far as percentages. No Prod, but it says 300mg saponins.


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## Pizzer (Jul 19, 2004)

For now, i want to wait for the ironmaglabs version to come out and see the reviews... would this be a valuable purchase and why/why not?
http://www.thevitaminshoppe.com/browse/sku_detail.jhtml;$sessionid$RRMLGGJL10AP2CQUAOWSFEQKCQB1AGXK?SkuID=203228&BreadCrumbType=SearchResult


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## brodus (Jul 19, 2004)

Well, it depends...

There are two things being measured, Saponins (a raw measurement of all possible active ingredients) and Protodioscin (the acutal active that has the positive effects).  You want the highest concentration of Protodioscin possible.  There is probably a strong correlation btwn. the amount of Protodioscin and the percentage of Saponins, so the higher the better. 

The supp. you listed has 40% Saponins.  There are supplements available with 80%.


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## Twin Peak (Jul 19, 2004)

Prince, how about we do a double blind study of your new product.

How long will it take for it to show results?  A 30 day supply?

Here is what we do, you send me 3 30 day supplies.  I'll have an equal number of placebo caps made.

You pick 6 people here to test, and I'll mail either your product or a placebo.

Then we see what happens.  It would be nice if we had before and after blood test as well.


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## Dale Mabry (Jul 19, 2004)

Perhaps adding a second control group (One with a subpar tribulus product) could add credibility to the assertion that Prince's product is superior because of it's concetration.  Keep the dosage the same, just use a lower concentration (<20% protod.)  This would make it far more worthwhile to Prince, Robert Diamggio or whatever the hell he is calling himself today.


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## Twin Peak (Jul 19, 2004)

Works for me.


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## Monolith (Jul 19, 2004)

I believe there should be a third control group who is given only leptigen, sesathin, phenogen and absolved.  As this group requires balancing quite a few supplements, i nominate myself to bear the burden.


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## V Player (Jul 19, 2004)

brodus said:
			
		

> Well, it depends...
> 
> There are two things being measured, Saponins (a raw measurement of all possible active ingredients) and Protodioscin (the acutal active that has the positive effects).  You want the highest concentration of Protodioscin possible.  There is probably a strong correlation btwn. the amount of Protodioscin and the percentage of Saponins, so the higher the better.
> 
> The supp. you listed has 40% Saponins.  There are supplements available with 80%.


Thanks a million, Brodus. Im still new to this whole supplement thing. I think I will wait for Robert's version to come out instead of buying this again. Word up man.


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## Pirate! (Jul 19, 2004)

I will participate if you pay for the blood work...


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## Pirate! (Jul 19, 2004)

Metal V Player said:
			
		

> Thanks a million, Brodus. Im still new to this whole supplement thing. I think I will wait for Robert's version to come out instead of buying this again. Word up man.



3 x Anabolic-Matrix Rx??? 
Price: $87.97 (save $20)      

Note: For a 30 day cycle at 6 caps per day 3 bottles are needed. 

$3 a day! You must be the richest metal head I haven't met.   We should party. You're buying.


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## rrgg (Jul 19, 2004)

If you take 2 caps of a 10% protodioscin product or 1 cap of a 20%, aren't they the same thing? 

I understand anabolic matrix has other stuff behind it too.  Just trying to see how cost effective this is.


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## V Player (Jul 19, 2004)

PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> 3 x Anabolic-Matrix Rx???
> Price: $87.97 (save $20)
> 
> Note: For a 30 day cycle at 6 caps per day 3 bottles are needed.
> ...


Thats what it costs??? OUCH!!!.........nah Im not rich yet. Ozzy still wont let me play for him. 



But I will.........


And yeah when I do, I'll buy. LOL. So long as you buy my merchandise if I get on with WWE.


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## rrgg (Jul 24, 2004)

Since ANABOLIC MATRIX isn't available yet, I'm wondering how much tribulus is an effective dose.  I've seen 750mg, 900, 1500, and 2000 mentioned before.

Let's say you had that decent tribulus product Brodus mentioned earlier with 15% protodiocin (80% saponin).  What do you think? 

Thanks.


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## Arnold (Jul 24, 2004)

it's available, and I challenge you to find another product with the combo of ingredients we have put into it, AND the same quality.

http://ironmaglabs.com/anabolic-matrix.html


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## rrgg (Jul 25, 2004)

I thought it was only in the pre-order stage, so thanks.  

I'm just interested in tribulus dosages, not dissing Anabolic Matrix!  Having said that, I think the webpage doesn't list how much of your very high quality tribulus it contains anyway.  I only know to take 6 capsules per day.


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## Arnold (Jul 25, 2004)

at 3 capsules it is over 700mg's of Tribulus with 20%+ Protodioscin.

6 caps are not necessary, for maximum anabolic effect 6 is ideal and would give you prohormone type results, I am currently using only 3 caps per day.


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## Twin Peak (Jul 25, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> for maximum anabolic effect 6 is ideal and would give you prohormone type results



That is a very, very, very bold statement.  Which prohormone are you comparing its anabolic effects to.

Also, Rob, I think you missed my earlier post.


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## Arnold (Jul 25, 2004)

Twin Peak said:
			
		

> That is a very, very, very bold statement.  Which prohormone are you comparing its anabolic effects to.



yes, it is, but I am very confident with it...I am comparing to 4-AD.


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## Arnold (Jul 25, 2004)

saw your posts, and yes I plan to do some testing, just got back from Cancun last night, so I will be working on things this week.


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## Pirate! (Jul 25, 2004)

Okay Prince, 
I am sorry for asking for your wife's number. I appreciate the advice you have given me and I enjoy this forum. Please don't censor me anymore for asking you to back up your claims. I realize that in marketing you have to make bold claims that shouldn't be taken literally. Pals again?


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## Arnold (Jul 25, 2004)

PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> Okay Prince,
> I am sorry for asking for your wife's number. I appreciate the advice you have given me and I enjoy this forum. Please don't censor me anymore for asking you to back up your claims. I realize that in marketing you have to make bold claims that shouldn't be taken literally. Pals again?



I did not "censor" anything, people need to realize there are many moderators on this board that edit/delete posts, not just me, in fact I rarely do.

If you doubt my claims please order my product and see for yourself.


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## Pirate! (Jul 25, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> I did not "censor" anything, people need to realize there are many moderators on this board that edit/delete posts, not just me, in fact I rarely do.
> 
> If you doubt my claims please order my product and see for yourself.


Well, I think your product looks good. I will wait a few months and see what others have to say about it unless I win the lottery in the mean time. Best of luck with it. My apology was sincere. I didn't realize that I broke the rules. I should probably review them so I don't piss anyone else off.


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## Twin Peak (Jul 26, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> saw your posts, and yes I plan to do some testing, just got back from Cancun last night, so I will be working on things this week.



Wow, your pre-orders must have sold off the hook.   

Nice trip?


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## Arnold (Jul 26, 2004)

Twin Peak said:
			
		

> Wow, your pre-orders must have sold off the hook.
> 
> Nice trip?



nope, only had a few orders so far, but that is okay, new ventures always start off slow....it took over two years before IronMagazine.com started paying for itself.

the trip was great, thanks.


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## Twin Peak (Jul 26, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> nope, only had a few orders so far, but that is okay, new ventures always start off slow....it took over two years before IronMagazine.com started paying for itself.
> 
> the trip was great, thanks.



LOL.  I was just giving you a hard time with the timing of your product, and your vacation.


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## Arnold (Jul 26, 2004)

oh yeah that did kind of suck, I expected to have it ready a month ago but one of the ingrediants took and extra 3 weeks to get in.


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## rrgg (Jul 27, 2004)

This report kind of explains why some think tribulus didn't work for them -- they weren't actually taking tribulus at all!

http://www.thermolife.com/labReport-Tribosten.pdf


Since Anabolic Matrix is in a potent form, it should rock!


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## Arnold (Jul 27, 2004)

rrgg said:
			
		

> Since Anabolic Matrix is in a potent form, it should rock!



it does! 

http://ironmaglabs.com/anabolic-matrix.html


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## Death_Kron (Jul 29, 2004)

Correct me if Im wrong any-one but I, personally, don't see the point of taking 6-OXO after a course/with a course of Tribulus. 6-OXO is designed to allow the body's hormonal producing capacity/ability to return to normal and I don't think Tribulus warrants this. Tribulus isn't that strong compared to some prohormones. I would recommend taking 6-OXO after a course of Methly Test or someting like that though.


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## madden player (Jul 29, 2004)

Death_Kron said:
			
		

> ...Tribulus isn't that strong compared to some prohormones...


Tribulus will not make you testicles shrink, your hair fall or give you "man boobs" so maybe it is not as strong as prohormones.??  I wouldn't know, I never tried any legal steroids before but I have tried Tribulus and it was one of the only supplements you can buy that actually have a noticeable effect.  

Tribulus had powerful sexual effects but it did not help with the gains in the gym...maybe I did not stay on it long enough??

Tribulus is like an other herbal product...the potency and quality varies a lot from product to product.  The high quality Tribulus was too expensive for me to continue to buy.  When over the counter gear is finally banned products like high quality Tribulus will become more popular.


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## Luke9583 (Jul 29, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> If you doubt my claims please order my product and see for yourself.


HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA SMOOOOTH.  Honestly though, I wish I could afford to try everything I had doubts about.  How about a discount?


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## Luke9583 (Jul 29, 2004)

madden player said:
			
		

> Tribulus will not make you testicles shrink, your hair fall or give you "man boobs"


That's not neccessary true. Test converts to estrogen once it reaches a certain level. Correct me if wrong.  I was always told to take an anti estrogen with high doses of Tribulus.


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## Arnold (Jul 29, 2004)

Right, that is why I say cycle Anabolic-Matrix, and this is also why I included the Chrysin and DIM.


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## Luke9583 (Jul 29, 2004)

Sounds like a quality product.  I am a firm beleiver in the Trib.  AND, I'm still a youngin' (20).  If I were closer to 30, I would invest more heavily in it.


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## Arnold (Jul 29, 2004)

it really depends on how high your natural T levels are. 

some males at 20 do not have high T levels, some do.


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## madden player (Jul 29, 2004)

Luke9583 said:
			
		

> That's not neccessary true. Test converts to estrogen once it reaches a certain level. Correct me if wrong. I was always told to take an anti estrogen with high doses of Tribulus.


I am not an endrocrinologist but Tribulus possibly could raise endogenous Test high enough to need the use of anti-estrogens??...It works by stimulating LH production??...Will your body adjust in time to the increase in LH and make Tribulus ineffective??


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## Arnold (Jul 29, 2004)

don't think anyone has done enough testing to really know, but again that is why I recommend cycling it and that is why I included the Chrysin and DIM.


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## madden player (Jul 29, 2004)

Well I know it has a noticeable effect on libido...anyone who has tried high quality tribulus at a high enough dose should have noticed some aphrodisiac effects.  Quality is the most important thing when you buy herbal products, sometimes the active ingredients are processed right out of the herb.

I currently use valerian as a sleep aid and the cheap drug store brands are useless...when get good valerian you can feel it, I am sure the same thing is true with Tribulus.


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## camarosuper6 (Aug 2, 2004)

I ordered some Triaxalon from AST today with 40 percent Trib, but no info on anything else.  

2 Capsules is 1000 mg. Today is my first day, Ill let you know how it goes.


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## redspy (Aug 2, 2004)

Since a lot of people here are discussing the merits of Tribulus for PCT could somebody explain its role as an aromatase inhibitor/anti-e, i.e. how does it counterbalance the increased level of estrogen in your system?


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## Arnold (Aug 2, 2004)

camarosuper6 said:
			
		

> I ordered some Triaxalon from AST today with 40 percent Trib, but no info on anything else.



instead of my product!


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## Luke9583 (Aug 2, 2004)

You are seriously cracking me up. But honestly, i think we all owe it to you (at least 1 bottle) for having this awesome site up! Expect to here from me soon. As soon as get my new credit card #! (mine got STOLEN!!!!  )


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## Arnold (Aug 2, 2004)

Luke9583 said:
			
		

> You are seriously cracking me up. But honestly, i think we all owe it to you (at least 1 bottle) for having this awesome site up! Expect to here from me soon. As soon as get my new credit card #! (mine got STOLEN!!!!  )



thanks, well even if you do not want to buy the product, you can always show support for the board by upgrading to an *Elite Member*.


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## camarosuper6 (Aug 3, 2004)

Heh... sorry Prince. I actually ordered the Triaxolon about 3 weeks ago, but am just starting it today because I have been out of town.

I promise next time around, I'll buy your bud. I didnt even know ur Anabolic Matrix had come out yet when I bought my Trib.

Good luck with the sales.


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## Arnold (Aug 3, 2004)

no problem, just giving you a hard time.


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