# Permanent Sterility



## msumuscle (Apr 23, 2012)

Does anybody believe in permanent sterility from AAS?  I'd just like to hear different opinions & experiences from people who blast and cruise, good or bad.


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 23, 2012)

msumuscle said:


> Does anybody believe in permanent sterility from AAS?  I'd just like to hear different opinions & experiences from people who blast and cruise, good or bad.




haha i love ya bro


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## msumuscle (Apr 23, 2012)

LOL I know I basically beat the hell out of this topic, I just want to make sure I know what I'm getting into before I start cruising since I'm only 22.  

P.S I love you too sweetheart


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## Digitalash (Apr 23, 2012)

Started cruising @ 22 here


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## msumuscle (Apr 23, 2012)

Trust me, the only thing that's holding me back is the potential for having trouble makin babies later on down the road


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## Digitalash (Apr 23, 2012)

have your swimmers frozen, or just stay on hcg ?


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## msumuscle (Apr 23, 2012)

I know, I'm looking for info on HCG being run year round at low doses and whether or not long term use at low doses causes leydig cell desensitization.


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## Digitalash (Apr 23, 2012)

I believe some HRT clinics have been using that protocol for years with no problems, and I've heard of a fair number of gear users who stay on hcg year round and have decent sperm counts


Worst comes to worst your sperm count might end up quite low without hcg or if you did become desensitized but I think it's rare for it to be actually zero. It's not ideal of course but they could still take what you have and do in vitro fertilization


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## theboneman (Apr 23, 2012)

you asked for my opinion, ill give you an honest one, im 45 yrs old look at some of my threads, im sterile from steroids, and after 7 months of serious pct, im still sterile w/ a zero sperm count, my wife is cursing me she's 38 and wants a kid and all i hear is thats all i ask from you and you cant do it for me, sometimes it bothers me too, i ran test for about 18 months and im having serious fertility problems.

do i think you should blast and cruise at 22, no i dont, some day you may be married and your wife might ask for children, what are you gonna tell her ?? i wanted to look good and shut my system down, it really is not worth losing your manhood, cause thats how i feel.
you got a whole life ahead of you, and you have plenty of cycles still ta do, but you really should put your health first, i hope i didnt insult you in anyway, i was being honest, i almost died last year from liver failure, and laying there dying, my wife asked me, why ?? why did you do this to yourself, i wanted to share that with you, thats the reality about steroids, theres a time and place for them when used properly.

i personaly started juiceing it up early thirties, you are your own man, you gotta make that decision, then you gotta live with those consequences.
good luck 2u.
bones

edited, these guys just hit it on the nail, there are options, hcg ran w/ it, or invitro, theres always alternatives, just remember, your gonna live with the outcome


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## teezhay (Apr 23, 2012)

My only concern would be desensitization over time to HCG, but I don't know that that's ever been proven to be anything more than speculative bunk science. I guarantee Heavyiron would be able to offer some really solid input here, he's a walking, lifting, protein-synthesizing encyclopedia on this sort of stuff.


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## Digitalash (Apr 23, 2012)

I heard heavyiron went catabolic once, just to see what it felt like


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## msumuscle (Apr 23, 2012)

theboneman said:


> you asked for my opinion, ill give you an honest one, im 45 yrs old look at some of my threads, im sterile from steroids, and after 7 months of serious pct, im still sterile w/ a zero sperm count, my wife is cursing me she's 38 and wants a kid and all i hear is thats all i ask from you and you cant do it for me, sometimes it bothers me too, i ran test for about 18 months and im having serious fertility problems.
> 
> do i think you should blast and cruise at 22, no i dont, some day you may be married and your wife might ask for children, what are you gonna tell her ?? i wanted to look good and shut my system down, it really is not worth losing your manhood, cause thats how i feel.
> you got a whole life ahead of you, and you have plenty of cycles still ta do, but you really should put your health first, i hope i didnt insult you in anyway, i was being honest, i almost died last year from liver failure, and laying there dying, my wife asked me, why ?? why did you do this to yourself, i wanted to share that with you, thats the reality about steroids, theres a time and place for them when used properly.
> ...




No offense taken whatsoever bones, this is why I started this thread and was looking for different experiences from different users.  Have you gone and seen a doc about your infertility and also have you tried HCG or HMG?  Liver failure is serious brother and I'm glad you make it through that, you're very lucky.  Did you run a lot of orals in your day?  I appreciate your honest opinion sir!


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## Glycomann (Apr 23, 2012)

Most of the guys from the 80s I new back then that juiced have kids even the ones that were nuts with doses and duration. Arnold has kids.  Lou has kids. I think Mattarazzo has a kid. Jimmy Quinn has a kid. It was tough for him though.

P.S. I think I'm suppose to be already dead let alone sterile..


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## msumuscle (Apr 23, 2012)

teezhay said:


> My only concern would be desensitization over time to HCG, but I don't know that that's ever been proven to be anything more than speculative bunk science. I guarantee Heavyiron would be able to offer some really solid input here, he's a walking, lifting, protein-synthesizing encyclopedia on this sort of stuff.



.I PM'ed Heavy about this and he said that it's very unlikely for permanent sterilization to occur from AAS.  I want a concrete answer but I know that it's not really possible to get one


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## Digitalash (Apr 23, 2012)

exactly big ron has kids and you know that guys been on everything for yearsss, not saying sterility can't happen but I think it's rare if some precautions are taken. Also really just get your shit frozen tomorrow and you'll never have to worry.


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## heckler7 (Apr 23, 2012)

You could have a low sperm count or be sterile now. The only way you can be sure is to get tested before use


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## msumuscle (Apr 23, 2012)

Glycomann said:


> Most of the guys from the 80s I new back then that juiced have kids even the ones that were nuts with doses and duration. Arnold has kids.  Lou has kids. I think Mattarazzo has a kid. Jimmy Quinn has a kid. It was tough for him though.



This is true!  What's crazy is I hear most of these guys aren't even on TRT after being on heavy doses for so long.  That makes me happy!


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## msumuscle (Apr 23, 2012)

Digitalash said:


> exactly big ron has kids and you know that guys been on everything for yearsss, not saying sterility can't happen but I think it's rare if some precautions are taken. Also really just get your shit frozen tomorrow and you'll never have to worry.




I didn't know Coleman has kids!


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## Glycomann (Apr 23, 2012)

msumuscle said:


> I didn't know Coleman has kids!



They don't have arms or legs but yeah..



jk


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## Digitalash (Apr 23, 2012)

msumuscle said:


> This is true!  What's crazy is I hear most of these guys aren't even on TRT after being on heavy doses for so long.  That makes me happy!



I really doubt that's true to be honest, they may say that but it's probably just to look good to the unaware public. Most never come off until they retire and then I'd bet they are on trt


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## msumuscle (Apr 23, 2012)

Why is it that everything that's good in life has to have a fuarkin price? WHY!!!!! TELL ME WHY!!!!!!!!


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## heckler7 (Apr 23, 2012)

msumuscle said:


> Why is it that everything that's good in life has to have a fuarkin price? WHY!!!!! TELL ME WHY!!!!!!!!


moderation is the key


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## keith1569 (Apr 23, 2012)

I'm basically sterile my lh and fsh r .2
They never recovered after a 20 week cycle. Now I'm on trt

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## petey2005 (Apr 23, 2012)

Do you test sperm count to see if your sterile or what?


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## teezhay (Apr 23, 2012)

Glycomann said:


> Most of the guys from the 80s I new back then that juiced have kids even the ones that were nuts with doses and duration. _*Arnold has kids.*_  Lou has kids. I think Mattarazzo has a kid. Jimmy Quinn has a kid. It was tough for him though.



Arnold can't quit having kids. He's decades removed from contests, but his sperm cells are still alpha.


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 23, 2012)

I question whether or not the people in this thread who are "sterile" underwent clomid/hmg/hcg/trip therapy.


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 23, 2012)

bump


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## Digitalash (Apr 23, 2012)

I believe bones has tried just about everything except trip and HMG, sperm count of ZERO almost doesn't make sense to me lol


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## theboneman (Apr 24, 2012)

Digitalash said:


> I believe bones has tried just about everything except trip and HMG, sperm count of ZERO almost doesn't make sense to me lol



yea ive been spending alot on pct, its getting relentless, i go back in 3 weeks, and yes i tried triperellen twice. guys im still on hcg, clomid and nolvadex. im defanitly getting hmg, i hear good things about it, (promissing). the guy that posted this is 22 and he is having trouble rebounding, im 45, and had a 18 month run so only time will tell.
i ask was it worth it, i lost most my gains anyway, and i started playing with peptides, but could not afford both, i spent my cycle on this pct. yea it does suck.
im going nuts, i want to jump back on, but gotta see this threw. i have 4 more weeks left on hcg, 500iu every other day, and the clomid + nolvadex, ill keep ya posted when my next test comes back, and thank you guys, ive seen all your names b4, and received lots of good info and support from alot of you, thanxs.
bones,


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## nby (Apr 24, 2012)

Good luck with that bones, scary story! Puts things in perspective.


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## Kirk B (Apr 24, 2012)

theboneman said:


> yea ive been spending alot on pct, its getting relentless, i go back in 3 weeks, and yes i tried triperellen twice. guys im still on hcg, clomid and nolvadex. im defanitly getting hmg, i hear good things about it, (promissing). the guy that posted this is 22 and he is having trouble rebounding, im 45, and had a 18 month run so only time will tell.
> i ask was it worth it, i lost most my gains anyway, and i started playing with peptides, but could not afford both, i spent my cycle on this pct. yea it does suck.
> im going nuts, i want to jump back on, but gotta see this threw. i have 4 more weeks left on hcg, 500iu every other day, and the clomid + nolvadex, ill keep ya posted when my next test comes back, and thank you guys, ive seen all your names b4, and received lots of good info and support from alot of you, thanxs.
> bones,


HMG is the strongest I hear so I really hope it works for you buddy   


and to MSUMUSCLE  don't do that at your age yet bro go on and off have ai's on hand and hcg 4 weeks in start or sooner depending on what you take  the faster you came off the faster you can get back on read the articles on here about sarms ostra I think they even have it here you wont lose much gains you make at all if you pct and run that bro so do that IMHO def at your age the BoneMan is right you might want Kids and I was lucky enough to run hcg and do 3 cycles and have got my old lady prego before and just cause I did my home work and came off and back on AAS 4 x bro be smart listen to these guys they have alot  to offer bro just looking out for you


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## theboneman (Apr 24, 2012)

nby said:


> Good luck with that bones, scary story! Puts things in perspective.



yea i know, it makes ya really think b4 ya do something, i appreciate you guys point of view, ive received excellent support from all you guys, this 22 year old young buck, has got serious decisions to make.
reality can bite you in the ass sometimes, hahaha.
later,
bones


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## Grozny (Apr 24, 2012)

msumuscle said:


> Does anybody believe in permanent sterility from AAS?  I'd just like to hear different opinions & experiences from people who blast and cruise, good or bad.



Sterility in men is a weird thing. Unless there is a physical problem making viable sperm, men are rarely completely sterile; we just get low sperm counts which makes conception much more difficult. Technically, it only takes one sperm... So subsequent to steroid use, true permanent sterility is not something you are really going to see. What you may see at times are difficulties maintaing optimal sperm count, which may require medical intervention to correct/restore the fertility level you want to conceive.


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## Glycomann (Apr 24, 2012)

theboneman said:


> yea ive been spending alot on pct, its getting relentless, i go back in 3 weeks, and yes i tried triperellen twice. guys im still on hcg, clomid and nolvadex. im defanitly getting hmg, i hear good things about it, (promissing). the guy that posted this is 22 and he is having trouble rebounding, im 45, and had a 18 month run so only time will tell.
> i ask was it worth it, i lost most my gains anyway, and i started playing with peptides, but could not afford both, i spent my cycle on this pct. yea it does suck.
> im going nuts, i want to jump back on, but gotta see this threw. i have 4 more weeks left on hcg, 500iu every other day, and the clomid + nolvadex, ill keep ya posted when my next test comes back, and thank you guys, ive seen all your names b4, and received lots of good info and support from alot of you, thanxs.
> bones,



How long have you been off? Have you tried just letting your system come back naturally? Also you might want to PM Heavyiron.  He conceived with his wife not long ago I think and he went through the whole restart thing after being on for years. What I've seen is most guys from the 80s and 90s that used have long since conceived with wife's. One guy was a heavy user from highschool well into his 30s before retiring from competition. He has a son and very proud of him.  He's in his early 50s now and does not even work out so not even on TRT. He would go off once a year on average for months. A good friend of mine owned on of my favorite gyms always cycled on and off.  He has 2 daughters and was off for a decade until recently.  He's 49. There are dozens of guys I know that conceived long after their BBing days were over and had no inkling to use any TRT or anything.  Most of them restarted without so much as a tab of clomid. I myself conceived my daughter 3 weeks off my 4th cycle. I remember the shot. I just came home from partying with a friend that lived up the road. Took the wife as soon as I got in the door.


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## BIGBEN2011 (Apr 24, 2012)

i think going on trt at a young age under 40 is the stupid thing in the world hands douwn.i mean shit steriods are not magic just go off for a little while run hcg while on do a good pct use all kinds of supplments ,test booster creatin everything including the sink.if you can only look good with steriods somthing wroung anyway.but it takes hard work but it is not the end of the world if you loose a couple pounds for a couple months out of the year nobody even notice besides yourself.do you really want to have to be a slave to the needle the rest of your life.your no diff than a drug addicct that can not go or do anything with out making sure you got enough of your fix to make it.maybe i am just lucky i can still gain even while off .now for the peolpe that have low t and need it then that is a diff story.


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 24, 2012)

BIGBEN2011 said:


> i think going on trt at a young age under 40 is the stupid thing in the world hands douwn.i mean shit steriods are not magic just go off for a little while run hcg while on do a good pct use all kinds of supplments ,test booster creatin everything including the sink.if you can only look good with steriods somthing wroung anyway.but it takes hard work but it is not the end of the world if you loose a couple pounds for a couple months out of the year nobody even notice besides yourself.do you really want to have to be a slave to the needle the rest of your life.your no diff than a drug addicct that can not go or do anything with out making sure you got enough of your fix to make it.maybe i am just lucky i can still gain even while off .now for the peolpe that have low t and need it then that is a diff story.



you sound like my mom


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## bml600lb (Apr 24, 2012)

If anything your gonna get someone knocked up lol.... I just ran a cycle and I was like a wild man with my women.... she kept asking me (why are you so horny lol) well Sunday morning she comes up to me and shows me the preg test and Im gonna be a daddy again lol


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## theboneman (Apr 24, 2012)

bml600lb said:


> if anything your gonna get someone knocked up lol.... I just ran a cycle and i was like a wild man with my women.... She kept asking me (why are you so horny lol) well sunday morning she comes up to me and shows me the preg test and im gonna be a daddy again lol



  congratulations my friend, i wish the best for you and your family, good luck daddy.
Bones


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## BIGBEN2011 (Apr 24, 2012)

Standard Donkey said:


> you sound like my mom


lol that was funny so you know it is bad if i am preaching about somthing if you knew me i am the bad boy .i have done everything and should be dead i am one of those people that when youger would shoot up rubbing  alcohol to try to get high.and even my dumb ass knows being on trt at a young age is dumb.


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 24, 2012)

BIGBEN2011 said:


> lol that was funny so you know it is bad if i am preaching about somthing if you knew me i am the bad boy .i have done everything and should be dead *i am one of those people that when youger would shoot up rubbing  alcohol to try to get high*.and even my dumb ass knows being on trt at a young age is dumb.



shit bro


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 24, 2012)

boneman i strongly believe you will find success with hmg, its supposed to be the kicker (fsh).


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 24, 2012)

Victor posted this on a different board back in 09

*Steroids, HCG and Fertility

*One of the more worrisome aspects of using high-dose anabolic steroid regimens is their effect on fertility. Many commonly used anabolic steroids exert a feedback mechanism on the pituitary gland in the brain, which responds by stopping the release of two hormones known as gonadotropins: luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone. Interestingly, estrogen is even more potent than testosterone at inhibiting the release of LH and FSH. (Increased estrogen levels in male steroid users are the result of the conversion of testosterone or anabolic steroid drugs into estrogen through the activity of the ubiquitous enzyme aromatase.)

The lack of gonadotropins lowers fertility, since those hormones are required for complete sperm development. *Infertility is still often listed as a major side effect of anabolic-steroid use, though permanent infertility is rare among bodybuilders and other athletes.* Cycling, or taking a break from all drug use, enables the body to bounce back from impaired fertility in most cases. Sometimes, however, that can take a while, depending on how much was used and the duration of the cycle.

Athletes have well-known ways of offsetting the possible antifertility effects of high-dose anabolic-steroids. They turn to anti-estrogen drugs to prevent the rise in estrogen that results from aromatization. Such drugs include Nolvadex, clomiphene and lately, potent anti-aromatase drugs such as Arimidex and others in that category, which cripple the activity of aromatase, lowering estrogen levels.

While blocking estrogen helps maintain fertility in men (although some estrogen is required for full sperm development), it doesn't affect the lack of gonadotropin secretion required for sperm development. For that purpose, bodybuilders and other athletes turn to human chorionic gonadotropin. HCG is the same hormone that shows up early in pregnancy. Male athletes are interested in the substance because it looks a lot like LH.

Not only is LH needed for sperm development, but it's also the rate-limiting hormone for testosterone synthesis in the body. Athletes hope HCG will maintain the body's testosterone production, which would normally be suppressed by anabolic steroids. HCG also maintains the sperm count, offsetting infertility.

Bodybuilders use HCG either during a steroid cycle or during the last two weeks of a cycle, when the drugs are tapered down to zero. Some have written that it's futile to use HCG during a cycle because the high steroid doses will overcome any effect of HCG. Others point out that HCG promotes not only testosterone synthesis but also estrogen. If the athlete doesn't also use an estrogen-blocking drug, estrogen-related side effects, such as gynecomastia, can quickly become apparent.

A newly published study followed the use of HCG and steroids in 21 men, mostly bodybuilders, aged 24 to 42, for six years.2 The athletes used their own steroids; none were supplied by the researchers. As a result, the cycles of the subjects varied in dosages and time but were far higher than any doctor would prescribe. In short, they used real-world drug regimens. The average-length drug cycle was 138 days, while the average daily dose was 96 milligrams.

As expected, all the subjects showed a decrease in sperm count while on a cycle. Within six weeks after getting off the drugs, nearly all had significant increases in sperm count. By the six-month mark most were back to normal, although one subject showed no sperm production at all at the end of his cycle. Nor did he recover after the six-month follow-up. Within five years, however, he and his wife had two healthy daughters.

The study proved the long-held contention that injecting HCG (as a protein hormone, it must be injected) while on a high-dose steroid regimen does maintain sperm production. On the other hand, a novel finding was that using both high-dose anabolic steroids and HCG leads to abnormalities in sperm.

What caused the abnormalities? Full sperm development requires not only LH, which is provided by the HCG, but also FSH. The men didn't use any type of FSH drug, although such drugs are available and are used to treat female infertility. The authors, however, suggest that HCG caused the abnormal sperm production all on its own.

At first glance, this study appears to be alarming. Abnormal sperm is linked to male infertility and to possible birth defects. On the other hand, I know of not a single professional bodybuilder who's had a child born with any birth defect'and some of them used huge steroid cycles off and on for years. My guess is that somehow the body can tell which sperm are more effective at the job than others, and the superior sperm get to the goal first.


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## BIGBEN2011 (Apr 24, 2012)

that is not no where near my main fear of using steriods my bigest fear is 10 years from now or 5 or what ever they say ben you have cancer and your going to die and it is because you used gear so you could look just a little better then you would have if you did not use them.and you would have lived another 50 years but now you will die just to look good now someone else will be pounding your wife and your kids will be calling another man dad while your six foot under for kiling yourself basically.which i dont think this will happen because i try to not do high doses and i come off i have only ran like 33 weeks worth of cycles over 35 years as of now.but there is no doubt that if you stay on any drug for your whole life espically if you start young so say you take any drug for 40 50 years or more it is going to cause you problems and will lead to your death coming earlier than it would have just common since really but when you 20 years old you never think you will live to be 50 60 years old but it comes on quick as amofo.


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## BIGBEN2011 (Apr 24, 2012)

i will say this standard donkey maybe young and i may not agree with being on trt at a young age but he does know what he is talking about atleast.props for that young man


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## Digitalash (Apr 24, 2012)

Gear's not gonna give you cancer though bro, keep your heart healthy and your cardio in good shape, don't go insane with your doses/cycle length and it's very unlikely it's gonna kill you


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 24, 2012)

Digitalash said:


> Gear's not gonna give you cancer though bro, keep your heart healthy and your cardio in good shape, don't go insane with your doses/cycle length and it's very unlikely it's gonna kill you



yeah ive never heard of testosterone killing anyone


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## skinnyguy180 (Apr 24, 2012)

theboneman said:


> yea ive been spending alot on pct, its getting relentless, i go back in 3 weeks, and yes i tried triperellen twice. guys im still on hcg, clomid and nolvadex. im defanitly getting hmg, i hear good things about it, (promissing). the guy that posted this is 22 and he is having trouble rebounding, im 45, and had a 18 month run so only time will tell.
> i ask was it worth it, i lost most my gains anyway, and i started playing with peptides, but could not afford both, i spent my cycle on this pct. yea it does suck.
> im going nuts, i want to jump back on, but gotta see this threw. i have 4 more weeks left on hcg, 500iu every other day, and the clomid + nolvadex, ill keep ya posted when my next test comes back, and thank you guys, ive seen all your names b4, and received lots of good info and support from alot of you, thanxs.
> bones,


 

You sound like me except I'm 28 and I just got my girl pregnant well actually 6 months ago.  But my natty test levels are now fucked.  To the op that started the thread-  any time you shut down your system you might not get it back.  I compare it to muscle atrophy.  Basically is you stay in bed for three months and don't move your muscles will disappear and getting back to where they were can take some time.  Now compare that to 8 months to a year, which is what I did, and now you have greater possibility that you well not recover fully.

Disclaimer-I don't know if it is exactly correct it is just my understanding.  And before I did that to myself I decided right then if I wanted more kids.  I will now have two.  And still might have some sperm frozen no joke my girl wants a football team worth of kids hahaha.  But she know what's going on with me.


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## msumuscle (Apr 24, 2012)

BIGBEN2011 said:


> i think going on trt at a young age under 40 is the stupid thing in the world hands douwn.i mean shit steriods are not magic just go off for a little while run hcg while on do a good pct use all kinds of supplments ,test booster creatin everything including the sink.if you can only look good with steriods somthing wroung anyway.but it takes hard work but it is not the end of the world if you loose a couple pounds for a couple months out of the year nobody even notice besides yourself.do you really want to have to be a slave to the needle the rest of your life.your no diff than a drug addicct that can not go or do anything with out making sure you got enough of your fix to make it.maybe i am just lucky i can still gain even while off .now for the peolpe that have low t and need it then that is a diff story.




lol I believe steroids are magic


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## msumuscle (Apr 24, 2012)

BigBen I have absolutely no problem relying on a needle for the rest of my life, I'm one of the weirdo's that looks forward to pinning.  Sterility is my one and ONLY concern, a long with little baby testes.


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## msumuscle (Apr 24, 2012)

Testosterone doesn't kill people, STANDARD DONKEY DOES!


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## theboneman (Apr 24, 2012)

Standard Donkey said:


> boneman i strongly believe you will find success with hmg, its supposed to be the kicker (fsh).



yea, thats what i been hearing, i bet your right on the money with that, i was holding out so i could do it right, they say 75 to 150 iu's a day for 2 to 4 weeks, that can be costly but i guess its worth it, im gonna have to break the bank.. 
thanks.
bones


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 24, 2012)

theboneman said:


> yea, thats what i been hearing, i bet your right on the money with that, i was holding out so i could do it right, they say 75 to 150 iu's a day for 2 to 4 weeks, that can be costly but i guess its worth it, im gonna have to break the bank..
> thanks.
> bones



go to canada, there are ug's that carry it if you are willing to take that route.


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## theboneman (Apr 24, 2012)

Standard Donkey said:


> go to canada, there are ug's that carry it if you are willing to take that route.



thats something i gotta research, i never even thought of that, i wish i had a connect there, it would make it a little easier but its worth looking into, im sure i can come up with something,, you just put a twist on it for me, thank you my man, ya probally just saved me a nice hit.
at $30 dol for 75iu's  thats $210 a week, and they recommend 150 iu's, that would be $420 a week, and at 4 weeks im looking at $1680 !!!! give or take a couple bucks, yea i bet i could save alot of dough for that gesture you made,, thanks again bro, (smart man).
and ive already spent alot on this situation, i hope something breaks soon, its getting costly, guys have good idea's, but thier expensive, hgh, or peptides add right up. i gotta see it threw because its really important to the wifey, and she has stuck by me on a couple bids, so you can imagine what im thinking, i wanna get back on the shit, but i really wanna pull threw for the wife.
only time will tell, ill keep ya"ll posted, and hey, thanks for your help on this, its been 7 months and been very stressfull looking for ansers.
later,
bones


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## Digitalash (Apr 24, 2012)

Nothing to add here bro but I wish you the best bones, sounds like a rough situation and I can't imagine really. I don't want kids but I'm young yet, I hope I don't change my mind someday and actually meet a decent girl, or I may be in the same situation...


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 24, 2012)

i plan on coming off if i cant have kids while on, getting medicated if simply coming off doesnt work, then going right back on after the wife gets knocked up... no hgh or peptides in my future i dont think


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## theboneman (Apr 24, 2012)

Digitalash said:


> Nothing to add here bro but I wish you the best bones, sounds like a rough situation and I can't imagine really. I don't want kids but I'm young yet, I hope I don't change my mind someday and actually meet a decent girl, or I may be in the same situation...



you have actually added alot my friend, you have given me feedback on some other threads too, and it helped me to make it this far, im still trying, thanks man !! still havnt gave up !
bones


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## bjg (Apr 24, 2012)

msumuscle listen to your senses and to the boneman.....you cannot decide what is going to happen to you based on other's stories..each responds differently ..however you are 22 and it is really stupid to start messing with your hormones and gh etc... you are too young ...starting that young means you are going to do it for a long time and for that reason  you might end up messing up your sperm count for good ..and that's not the only thing you can mess up dude....what is going on with you guys is normal training and health  out of your dictionnary? ..


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 24, 2012)

bjg said:


> msumuscle listen to your senses and to the boneman.....you cannot decide what is going to happen to you based on other's stories..each responds differently ..however you are 22 and it is really stupid to start messing with your hormones and gh etc... you are too young ...starting that young means you are going to do it for a long time and for that reason  you might end up messing up your sperm count for good ..and that's not the only thing you can mess up dude....what is going on with you guys is normal training and health  out of your dictionnary? ..



i was hoping you would leave your "contributions" out of this thread.


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## airsealed2 (Apr 24, 2012)

teezhay said:


> My only concern would be desensitization over time to HCG, but I don't know that that's ever been proven to be anything more than speculative bunk science. I guarantee Heavyiron would be able to offer some really solid input here, he's a walking, lifting, protein-synthesizing encyclopedia on this sort of stuff.




Bro, it has been pretty well proven that HCG desensitization is a myth. I mean that. I could dig up the work on that but I'm too busy and lazy. I read one paper by a leading expert that said it is certain it never happens, ever. I know there are those that repeat the myth but it ain't so. 

I'm sorry if I sound dogmatic, I don't usually do that but that myth is so prevalent, I felt I needed to at least be clear about my understanding of the issue.

As to the low sperm count thing, I have read that a protocal of HMG, HCG and proviron is often effective when all else fails at reversing AAS induced low sperm count.

I have another theory of my own I will advance that touches on this subject (at least in a preventative sense) in a separate thread very soon. I am just too busy to elaborate right now though.

Also, because it is somewhat theoretical, I question how apt it would be here.


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## Goldenera (Apr 24, 2012)

Do you compete?  If so then ok I get it. 

If not.....that's silly to go on trt at 22 IMHO.  I worked out like a madman 18-22 then I got bored with it and quit for 8 yrs. now I'm back at it. Life goes on.

There more to life then being jacked lol!  trust me I like to look good just as much as we all do. 

I'm a 1st time dad since the end of last yr. I wouldn't give that for anything now that I've experience it!  That said kids are huge responsibility and NOT for everyone that's for sure!  You don't have to have a kid.....

I'd say just do pct like the rest of us. 
I've made plenty of great gains natural with diet and proper routine. Roids aren't the end all be all. 

As others have said you can always freeze your seed and bomb trt and have your cake and eat it to lol!


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## heckler7 (Apr 25, 2012)

bjg said:


> msumuscle listen to your senses and to the boneman.....you cannot decide what is going to happen to you based on other's stories..each responds differently ..however you are 22 and it is really stupid to start messing with your hormones and gh etc... you are too young ...starting that young means you are going to do it for a long time and for that reason you might end up messing up your sperm count for good ..and that's not the only thing you can mess up dude....what is going on with you guys is normal training and health out of your dictionnary? ..


 here comes the peanut gallery


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## Grdfreak2012 (Apr 25, 2012)

I think the first time I read on this was from a study Dr. Scally referred to but theres alot of studies that say your more likely to have problems after the cycle if you dont run hcg to keep your nuts somewhat active during cycle. basically some studies  that have been done say that what happens when you gear up with no hcg is is that your testosterone making cells, decide there is no use for them to do anything and the cells just die off. Then even when you hit up hcg after the cycle in massive doses its still really hard to recover. We do see that people who use hcg during their cycle recover quicker after cycle and this is most likely why. So, If you decide to use aas make sure you run hcg during your cycle along with an AI. Just my 2cents. ohh yea and have EVERYTHING on hand before you start!


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 25, 2012)

*Total infertility from heavy anabolic steroids is not very likely - and if it 
occurs it is reversable and successful.
A exerpt from a message I posted for 
Citruscide on chat: 
**http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum...hreadid=128924*


*Effect 
of androgenic anabolic steroids on sperm quality and serum hormone levels in 
adult male bodybuilders. *

*Torres-Calleja J, Gonzalez-Unzaga M, 
DeCelis-Carrillo R, Calzada-Sanchez L, Pedron N. 

Unidad de Investigacion 
Medica en Biologia de la Reproduccion, Instituto Mexicano del Seguro Social, 
Mexico, DF. 

The purpose of this study was to assess the influence of the 
administration of high doses of androgenic anabolic steroids (anabolic steroids) 
on endocrine and semen parameters. Thirty volunteering bodybuilders were studied 
(ages ranging between 26.6 +/- 4.1 years). A history of anabolic steroid 
administration was recorded for fifteen subjects, and results of semen analysis 
and endocrine parameters were compared with data from fifteen bodybuilders not 
using steroids. In those subjects using anabolic steroids, eight had sperm 
counts under the lower normal limit (20 x 10(6) sperm/ml), three had 
azoospermia, two polyzoospermia, and two had normal sperm counts. The percentage 
of morphologically normal sperm was significantly reduced, only 17.7% had normal 
spermatozoa. In the control group, only one subject had oligozoospermia. The 
hormonal parameters revealed reduced FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - (1.5 
+/- 3.2 vs 5.0 +/- 1.6, p < 0.001) and PRL (5.1 +/- 4.9 vs 9.2 +/- 4.4, p 
< 0.01) levels. lh - leutenizing hormone - , T, E2 and **DHEA** levels did not vary. 

Reversible hypogonadism 
and azoospermia as a result of anabolic-androgenic steroid use in a bodybuilder 
with personality disorder. A case report. *

*Boyadjiev NP, Georgieva 
KN, Massaldjieva RI, Gueorguiev SI. 

Faculty of Medicine, Department of 
Physiology, Plovdiv, Bulgaria. **nutrim@plovdiv.techno-link.com** 


We report a case of reversible hypogonadism and azoospermia resulting 
from anabolic-androgenic steroid abuse in a body-builder with primary 
personality disorder. A keen body builder, a 20-year-old man, developed acute 
aggressive and destructive behavior after 10-month use of Bionabol (mean total 
dose of 1,120 mg per month), and Retabolil (mean total dose of 150 mg per 
month). He was found to meet the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental 
Disorders-IV ed. (DSM-IV) criteria for Borderline personality disorder. On 
admission to the hospital the clinical profile of the patient showed extremely 
low levels of serum testosterone. Values increased to normal levels 10 months 
after withdrawal of steroids. The semen was azoospermic at the beginning of the 
study period, oligospermic five months later, and reached 20 x 10(6) sperm per 
mL ten months after the steroid discontinuation. Anabolic steroids can greatly 
affect the male pituitary-gonadal axis. A hypogonadal state, characterized by 
decreased serum testosterone and impaired spermatogenesis, was induced in the 
patient. This condition was reversible after the steroid withdrawal, but the 
process took more than ten months. His personal imbalance could be considered a 
personality trait rather than a result of the anabolic-androgenic steroid use. 
There were probably dispositional personality characteristics that contributed 
to anabolic steroid abuse in our patient. The hypogonadal changes which 
occurred after his long-term steroid abuse were for the most part reversible. 


The reversibility of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia. 
*

*Turek PJ, Williams RH, Gilbaugh JH 3rd, Lipshultz LI. 

Scott 
Department of Urology, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA. 


Anabolic steroid associated male infertility is a little known but 
potentially treatable form of drug related infertility. We report on a 
bodybuilder with a 5-year history of steroid use who was azoospermic. He 
underwent successful gonadotropin replacement and conception was achieved 3 
months after therapy was initiated. Important diagnostic and therapeutic 
considerations in steroid-induced infertility are discussed. 

Anabolic 
steroids and semen parameters in bodybuilders. *

*Knuth UA, Maniera H, 
Nieschlag E. 

Max Planck Clinical Research Unit for Reproductive 
Medicine, Munster, Federal Republic of Germany. 

The influence of 
high-dose anabolic steroid administration on endocrine and semen parameters of 
41 bodybuilders (age, 26.7 +/- 0.7 years [mean +/- SEM]; height, 182 +/- 1 cm; 
weight, 97.5 +/- 2.0 kg) was investigated. History of anabolic steroid 
administration was recorded retrospectively, and results of semen analysis were 
compared with data from 41 consecutively recruited normal volunteers not using 
any steroids or other drugs. Doses of anabolic steroids taken by bodybuilders 
exceeded those generally applied for clinical purposes by up to 40-fold. 
Although only 5 of the normal volunteers had sperm counts below the lower normal 
limit of 20 x 10(6) sperm/mL, 24 of the bodybuilders showed subnormal values. 
Depending on the duration of anabolic steroid use and the period since last drug 
intake before the investigation, percentages of motile and normally formed sperm 
were significantly reduced in bodybuilders compared with normal volunteers. In 
those bodybuilders who had stopped consumption of anabolic steroids greater than 
4 months previously, sperm numbers were in the normal range. Results suggest 
that even after prolonged use of extremely high doses of anabolic steroids, 
sperm production may return to normal *


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## theboneman (Apr 25, 2012)

wow, !! standard  donkey, that was awesome reading, i really enjoyed that, ive been looking for something that informative, 
solid bro, thanxs
boneyard.


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## skinnyguy180 (Apr 25, 2012)

Yeah that was a good read.  Did I read the last paragraph right basically saying that the amount of gear isn't as big a factor to suppression as longevity?  That was was my original understanding with no backing though.


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 25, 2012)

skinnyguy180 said:


> Yeah that was a good read.  Did I read the last paragraph right basically saying that the amount of gear isn't as big a factor to suppression as longevity?  That was was my original understanding with no backing though.



I would imagine that 750mg of test would shut you down just as hard as 2 grams. I strongly believe that to be the case and i believe i remember reading it somewhere (i cant find the study though)


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## gm09 (Apr 26, 2012)

theboneman said:


> yea ive been spending alot on pct, its getting relentless, i go back in 3 weeks, and yes i tried triperellen twice. guys im still on hcg, clomid and nolvadex. im defanitly getting hmg, i hear good things about it, (promissing). the guy that posted this is 22 and he is having trouble rebounding, im 45, and had a 18 month run so only time will tell.
> i ask was it worth it, i lost most my gains anyway, and i started playing with peptides, but could not afford both, i spent my cycle on this pct. yea it does suck.
> im going nuts, i want to jump back on, but gotta see this threw. i have 4 more weeks left on hcg, 500iu every other day, and the clomid + nolvadex, ill keep ya posted when my next test comes back, and thank you guys, ive seen all your names b4, and received lots of good info and support from alot of you, thanxs.
> bones,



dont know if it you mentioned it or not but are you self treating or have you consulted a doctor?


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## bjg (Apr 26, 2012)

actually today i met a guy who has done everything ...AAS HGH SYnthol you name it ...he is huge  ,,,he is maybe 40-42 not sure and he admitted that he has permanent infertility and he is being treated with no results..he has used anabolics and hgh since he was 20......i did not believe it was likely to cause PERMANENT infertility....but this guy proved that it is possible...he was ok before but after 20 years of steroids ...not anymore ..


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## hypo_glycemic (Apr 26, 2012)

^ It's reversible


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## bjg (Apr 26, 2012)

hypo_glycemic said:


> ^ It's reversible


that is what i thought ....put our conflicts aside..i am serious about this guy ..at least that is what he told me..he has been under treatment for a while ( he wants babies) but so far nothing ..
but the guy is really big ..he is maybe 5'9 or so and probably more than 250 lbs with relatively low bf and strangely enough small waist ( at least it looked small)


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## ChiSao (Apr 26, 2012)

I administer 750mg. - 1500mg of Test E every two weeks and I've done so for six years because I'm a old man and I need it. 
 I also take d-bol, t-bol, anavar, and anadrol every time I go to the gym without fail.  Four Tabs or caps every workout.  I don't even PCT because I'm constantly on one long cycle.
I've read all the bullshit about doing steroids for short cycles and worry about losing balls and being shutdown.  I have no problems with erections or gonads disappearing.

Almost every time when I have sex with my wife, she says, "Are you trying to get me pregnant" and "I'm too old to pregnant now!".   Maybe her pet peeves.
Freeze those sperm cells my good man just in case.  Actually, you shouldn't do any steroids at your age.  You are going to miss out on all of the glorious testosterone your body will natural produce.
Go from zero to huge on your own stuff within your body  until 30 then "juice up" and bring in the first place win.  Good Luck to you.


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## theboneman (Apr 26, 2012)

gm09 said:


> dont know if it you mentioned it or not but are you self treating or have you consulted a doctor?



i have been seeing doctors all this time, and have been to all different specialist, got another one in 2 weeks comming up.
they keep shuffling me around because half of them dont know shit about steroids, im serious one guy said he never heard of pct, i was like why are you in this buisness, for the money, im getting more results from a fertility clinic now. if i dont get them to write me a script for hmg, im gonna buy it myself, from what ive read, thats the only shot i got because it stimulates the spertoli cells, and those are the boys who make sperm, ill keep ya posted, thanks, later
bones


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## trainbig (Sep 14, 2014)

theboneman said:


> i have been seeing doctors all this time, and have been to all different specialist, got another one in 2 weeks comming up.
> they keep shuffling me around because half of them dont know shit about steroids, im serious one guy said he never heard of pct, i was like why are you in this buisness, for the money, im getting more results from a fertility clinic now. if i dont get them to write me a script for hmg, im gonna buy it myself, from what ive read, thats the only shot i got because it stimulates the spertoli cells, and those are the boys who make sperm, ill keep ya posted, thanks, later
> bones



hey bones, just curious if you ended up getting your girl preggo? i know this is an old thread but i'm very curious as to how it turned out after using the hmg!


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## 13B-T (Sep 14, 2014)

I know trainbig just resurrected this thread but.. I think it's very person dependent.. I hear stories like theboneman and I was worried as well. 

Then even after 2 years of blast/cruise in my last week of contest prep (of all times what could be worse) and my girl came off the pill 2 weeks prior to that... it happened. No PCT. Also to note this is 2nd child and I am 27 so I knew I was able to fertilize prior to the events.


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## trainbig (Sep 15, 2014)

13B-T said:


> I know trainbig just resurrected this thread but.. I think it's very person dependent.. I hear stories like theboneman and I was worried as well.
> 
> Then even after 2 years of blast/cruise in my last week of contest prep (of all times what could be worse) and my girl came off the pill 2 weeks prior to that... it happened. No PCT. Also to note this is 2nd child and I am 27 so I knew I was able to fertilize prior to the events.



ya for sure man, its definitely different for everyone. i was just curious if he went from not producing to producing. would like to get tested but its kinda expensive. will probably do it next month.


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## raysd21 (Sep 16, 2014)

Just go get some rocket scientist/athletes' frozen custard.  

Having your own biological child is overrated.  

Half of us should not procreate anyway.

Have a nice day!


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## trainbig (Sep 16, 2014)

Ya no thanks lol im already helping raise someone else's child. Plus im not paying for some other dudes juice. Would rather just not have one if i couldn't create one. Props to those who do though.


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## theboneman (May 27, 2019)

hi guys, sorry its been so long, i just got back in the game, and id love to re cap some stuff, yea im still on i never came off and yes ive done multiple cycles of every combo u can imagine and alot of them were prescribed from my wifes fertility clinic, we never did conceive, i was trying to explain to you guys that when spertoli cells (semen) shut down theres NO DOCUMENTATION of them going back on, the norm is clomid hmg hcg, etc but alot of bodybuilders are off and the few with kids we dont know if the wife used a donor, my doc instituted these protocols in boston clinics and he told me personally, that this topic is all hush hush and theres thousands of sterile bodybuilders, infact TESTOSTERONE IS NOW PRESCRIBED As a male contraceptive, ILL SAY THAT AGAIN FOR YOU, MALES USE TEST NOW FROM THERE DOCTOR TO PREVENT CHILDBIRTH, IT IS A MALE CONTRACEPTIVE, THAT MEANS THE MEDICAL FIELD RECOGNIZES IT AS A SPERM SHUT OFF.....

MY DOC SHOWED ME THOUSANDS OF CASE STUDIES OF GUYS LIKE US SHUT DOWN, AND SOME KICK THERE TEST BACK ON BUT  NOT THERE SPERM, AND CLOMID HCG HMG YOU NAME IT THERES NO CASE NOT ONE WHERE THE GUY TURNED BACK ON..

AND PLEASE, IM NOT LOOKING TO ARGUE ANY POINTS, OR DISAGREE WITH anyone, IM JUST SHARING WITH YOU WHAT HAPPENED TO ME, YES I had full renal failure i was numbr 1 on the transplant list for liver and kidneys, i dropped from 198 ripped to 86 lbs i lived off my muscle or id be dead, i fully recovered, and been doing juice for what 5 yrs now giv or take, 

i was pinning cyp every 3rd day and i think i started eod fkn stupid with anavar someone said run 100mgs but it was the oral tren, the worst fkn drug on the market, i was taking them and 2 weeks in my urine turned gold to rust, and i got weak real weak and it was to late kinda clogged the liver and jaundice set in, it was pretty bad, scary shit, i couldnt fucking believe all the shit ive ran that fucking tren shut me off, im running test blend now, eq, a little dbol a little anadrol ands 1 ten mg halotestis, i either run 1 oral around 50mgs or 60 or ill mix a couple and keep them low they actually work great together if you just low dose them, i switch it up, but my advice is not to take a toxic drug for the fuck of it, i only ran it to like top off what i was doing like i use to make believe im getting ready for a show so i peak, if you wanna use it to peak you still run the chance of getting sick in 2 weeks its just the facts i guess, and i aint no pussy, ive ran so much shit it scared people and id say ahhhh tuffen up, but i have to share the truth so im not gonna glorify a bad drug, u can pin tren and its safer, no need to orally take it, i wanted to peak strength i remember.

and instead i was dying, read me my last rights and mom ordered me a casket it was that real, no hope, nothing, and i believe god touched me and said get up and i healed that fast so im grateful to whoever that was, i had 13 doctors that said we were waiting to shut machines off, u couldnt even breathe, WOW just thinking of this again makes me grateful and grateful for this forum, i had guys pulling for me my wife use to log on and read me post, she say heres another one says bones stray strong, and i couldnt even stand , i pee in a fkn tube, and u guys became my fkn strentgh, even if it was negative it gave me the strentgh to argue with you hahahaha.
thank you, if ive never thanked you, i am now, im grateful for the members who cared and didnt even know me, and the ones that turned there backs on me also gave me the strentgh to prove i never hurt anyone, and just repped for a source that actually got popped one day and when guys said i was this or that it wasnt true so they made me so mad i fought for my reputation and got back on the forum and and im still fukn here..... i never turn my back on a friend or fukem over and im happy for the men who stood by me,,,,,

THANK YOU ONE AND ALL FOR BEING THERE WHEN I NEEDED SOMEONE THE MOST !!!!
these forums are made up of people the good the bad and the ugly, and the good always prevails i got some solid bros in my world and i thank this forum


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## HFO3 (May 27, 2019)

my personal experience...went like this...  2 out of my 3 kids were conceived on gear my last son was born on a tren/mast/prop blast on vacation in Panama City 2012


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## theboneman (May 27, 2019)

and theres many who do conceive on gear, i had 3 daughters while juicing pretty heavy.... i think we were talking about end results or the possibility of long term test use... how long was you cylcling b4 pregnancy, i had a couple yrs on and banged out three, then about 5 yrs on after 3rd kid tried for a boy and never happened, so im just stating alot of case studies and proof today that and can and it will shut you off eventually, theres just to much proof to many bodybuilders, 5 yrs ago there were over 500.000 bodybuilders sterile, im sure its more today, and if there prescribing test as a contraceptive then the medical field is agreeing it will shut your spertoli cells down eventually. but im just sharing like you were and i respect your input, ofcourse.
i participated in research at the clinic, and met so many guys sterile and each one used test, not one guy said hey im sterile just because lol, and im sure there out there, but the cases are by hundreds of thousands now, see what you can come up with try dr abraham in mass i believe hes got a ton of research... i always believed your test would shut down, which it does, but it goes deeper and its something to research if your bodybuilding with test long term


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## alexvega (Jun 8, 2019)

theboneman said:


> you asked for my opinion, ill give you an honest one, im 45 yrs old look at some of my threads, im sterile from steroids, and after 7 months of serious pct, im still sterile w/ a zero sperm count, my wife is cursing me she's 38 and wants a kid and all i hear is thats all i ask from you and you cant do it for me, sometimes it bothers me too, i ran test for about 18 months and im having serious fertility problems.
> 
> do i think you should blast and cruise at 22, no i dont, some day you may be married and your wife might ask for children, what are you gonna tell her ?? i wanted to look good and shut my system down, it really is not worth losing your manhood, cause thats how i feel.
> you got a whole life ahead of you, and you have plenty of cycles still ta do, but you really should put your health first, i hope i didnt insult you in anyway, i was being honest, i almost died last year from liver failure, and laying there dying, my wife asked me, why ?? why did you do this to yourself, i wanted to share that with you, thats the reality about steroids, theres a time and place for them when used properly.
> ...




i agree with the post, now you are 22 yd, my position its if you go on roids, dont go longer that 10 weeks and make a good PCT, take a  12 weeks rest between cyccles, check your hormones, LFS and LH  andd free test.


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## Sherk (Jun 8, 2019)

?MY DOC SHOWED ME THOUSANDS OF CASE STUDIES OF GUYS LIKE US SHUT DOWN, AND SOME KICK THERE TEST BACK ON BUT  NOT THERE SPERM, AND CLOMID HCG HMG YOU NAME IT THERES NO CASE NOT ONE WHERE THE GUY TURNED BACK ON..? I call 100% bullshit on this. Dig a little deeper

I was on trt for 7 years and cycled the entire time. We decided we wanted to try for a baby. Went to the dr, I was steril, ran a protocol and became fertile. Whoever says it?s impossible is full of shit or repeating what they read. Theboneman, I would suggest getting another dr if he thinks once you become sterile from steroids that you cannot become fertile. I am the proof and there are many others that can prove you and your dr wrong. Try doing more research before you spit out things you know nothing about. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Beatguts (Jun 8, 2019)

Dave Palumbo has a fertility protocol posted on youtube which requires coming completely off, proper pct, hcg, and hmg. The infamous Boston Loyd has a protocol with higher dosages, but does not require coming off test and he successfully got his girl pregnant, who also competed and used drugs. I am sure either protocol could work for lucky ones and be ineffective for others. It really just comes down to how much risk you're okay with. Not to mention hmg is expensive and can be difficult to obtain.


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