# 110kg and 40% FAT!!!!!!



## Barbs (Dec 7, 2008)

Ok folks, I need some serious help here. I am 110kg (dunno pounds), 165cm and that makes me approximately 40% body fat! I have been going to gym for the last three months, focussing mainly on weights (hate cardio, plus it is boring). I am keeping things simple as I do not want to burn myself out. I am an absolute newbie so I do not know the correct jargon to tell you exactly what I am doing, but I will try:
lying on your back leg machine: 3 sets 10 reps(that is standard for all my excercises)
pull down back machine
pull towards chest back machine
calf raises
bench press machine
Triceps pull down
bicep curls
crunches
I can only make it to gym about twice a week.

To this I have started dieting, I average at about 1700 calories per day. It is slow going, first week I lost 0.8kg, second week 0.7kg third week I stayed static. Going to weigh in tomorrow and pray that I have lost something!
What is your take on what I am doing and can you see a way of improving what I am doing.


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## Built (Dec 7, 2008)

Can you describe your diet a bit?

How many grams of protein, carb and fat do you consume on your 1700 calories (calories look fine by the way).

Cardio is overrated for fat loss. If you like going for walks and can do that every day, that's all you need, half hour most days is fine.


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## Merkaba (Dec 7, 2008)

You came to the right place!


However...is there some kind of chart somewhere that says youre supposed to be a certain bodyfat percentage from being a certain height and weight?  
Anyways...

Stick around.  Lets hear what your typical meals are.


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## Built (Dec 7, 2008)

Merc, Barbs means her BMI is "40". Lots of people think this is the same as percent bodyfat - and it's close, kinda. But not really the same. 

Translating into feet and pounds, Barbs is 5'5" and currently weighs 242.5 lbs. 

For reference, I was once 170 lbs and I'm 5'7" tall. My BMI at that time was 27.

When I was 170 lbs, I had about 100 lbs of lean mass. At 5'7" tall, I was approximately 40% bodyfat. 

With the lean mass I currently carry (roughly 115 lbs), if I gained weight back up to 170 lbs, I'd be at about 32% bodyfat. 

Regardless of my lean mass, my BMI at 170 lbs would be 27. That's why BMI falls apart for bodybuilders, particularly for men. 

Without knowing how much lean mass Barbs carries, it's hard to speculate what her bodyfat would be, but if she's got 96 lbs of lean mass, she's at 60% bodyfat. 

If she's got 145 lbs of lean mass (which would be pretty damned cool), she's at 40% bodyfat. 

I'd bet money she's somewhere between the two extrema. 

I'd also bet that if she sticks around here, she'll drop WAY below either figure within a year!


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## danzik17 (Dec 7, 2008)

Like Built said, break down your diet for us a bit more in terms of carbs/fat/protein.

If you happen to know, post up an estimation of what your previous diet was before starting this since that can provide some helpful info.

Do you have any outstanding muscle/bone/joint issues that precludes you from certain exercises that we should know of?

One last tip:  always weigh in at the same time each day.  A lot of people get discouraged by what they see on the scale, but it's not an accurate estimation of progress unless you are consistent with timing.  I know that I can have fluctuations of up to 3-5lbs at different times every single day depending on waste, water, and glycogen.


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## Barbs (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Guys and Lady
Ok here it is:
Yesterday was bit muddled up diet wise, but it was:
60% Carbs - 183.3gms
24% Protien - 71.3gms
17% Fat - 23.4gms
1223 calories
My diet, when I'm not messing with it, is:
breakfast - 50gm Oats
midmorning - 25gm Whey
lunch - protien (100 - 150gm) and veg
midafternoon - 25gm Whey
Supper - one tin tuna and 125gm Cottage cheese
Yeh, boooooring! I have educated myself a bit with FitDay and a Nutrition site, so I give myself leeway to get creative.
My actual last weight was 110.6kg and when I weighed myself today I had lost 0.75 kgs. So I was happy. I do weigh myself on the same scale at the gym every week.
I had an asolute freak out today though, there is this instrument that measures your body fat, you put it on your biceps. Well, my last measurement was 37,5% and when I measured today it said 45%! How could I have lost weight and increased my body fat! I just hope the thing was malfunctioning.
With regards to injuries, I suffer from lower back pain. A chronic problem, i am a nurse, and the injury dates from twenty years ago! This is what actually motivated me to go back to gym as it was getting ridiculous. It has improved since going to gym. Standing calf raises aggrivate it, so I have opted to do seated calf raises instead.


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## danzik17 (Dec 8, 2008)

Ignore those gadgets that measure body fat.  The only way that's even close to accurate done by yourself is to use calipers.

Now on to the actual diet stuff.  I'll let Built sort out the details since she is far better at that, but you NEED to increase your calories.  It seems like a paradox, but you're causing your metabolism to crash by eating at those levels.  Over the next two weeks, you should increase your intake to first 1500 calories, then 1700 calories on the second week.  Never make huge jumps in calorie levels unless they are planned for a specific reason as you need to give your body time to adjust.

Think of this from the standpoint of evolution;  you are meant to survive, not necessarily to be lean.  When you restrict calories like that, your body thinks that you are starving to death.  The result is going to be that your metabolism crashes and your body wants to retain fat in order to survive.  By increases your calories to a more reasonable level, your body will recognize that it doesn't need to retain the fat and will be more willing to drop it.  That's the easy way of understanding it


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## Built (Dec 8, 2008)

Barbs said:


> Hi Guys and Lady
> Ok here it is:
> Yesterday was bit muddled up diet wise, but it was:
> 60% Carbs - 183.3gms
> ...



Please disregard those BIA fat analyzers. If you're hydrated and bloated, it'll tell you you're lean. If you're dehydrated and looking tight, it'll tell you you're fat. From this point forward, assume what you're doing will work, and just use the scale to measure progress. 

Now, your diet. I'd like you to increase your protein to at least 120g a day, increase your fats to at least 100g a day and drop your carbs way, WAY down. I'd suggest no starches at all - eat a few pieces of fruit and a LOT of green leafy veggies, butter your cooked veggies with real butter, dress your salads with olive oil dressings, and eat egg yolks, meat, avocado and raw nuts for your fats. 

At your current bodyfat, and especially being female, you are surely quite insulin resistant and you can take advantage of this plus a low carb diet to lose bodyfat and preserve muscle. 

Eat no grains at all. There is no need for you to eat them at all. 

Try having the tuna and cottage cheese for breakfast. That's what I do, with half an avocado. I eat that and I'm full until well after noon.

Also, start getting in 10g fish oil daily.


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## Merkaba (Dec 8, 2008)

Oh ok, thanks on the bmi, Built.  

Ok so barbs I agree with Danzik, the gadgets and stuff are pretty much useless.  Never put it on again.  All they do is give you a reason to get antsy like you did.  

As far as your back, was there a specific injury or did it just start hurting?

I'll let Built give the diet recommendations.


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## Barbs (Dec 8, 2008)

Wow, thanks for your speedy responses!

The initial back injury presented with sciatica. After physio, I no longer experienced pain from the sciatic nerve. The pain now presents as a muscular pain, across the lower lumbar region.

Ok, I am ready to be rapped over the knukkles!
Carbs are......:
brown sugar - 44.8gms ( please don't take it away )
rice cakes - 21.6gms
oats - 33.1gms
Milk - 36.5gms

Must I really get rid of ALL of those?


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## Built (Dec 8, 2008)

Barbs said:


> Wow, thanks for your speedy responses!
> 
> The initial back injury presented with sciatica. After physio, I no longer experienced pain from the sciatic nerve. The pain now presents as a muscular pain, across the lower lumbar region.
> 
> ...



I want to preface what I'm about to say with this: what you are doing WILL work, at least for a while, okay? You WILL lose weight, at least for as long as you can stick with this plan. 

Thing is, what you're doing will become more and more uncomfortable over time. And I don't know about you, but I've been fat and I didn't get that way by being comfortable with prolonged bouts of gnawing hunger.

So no, you don't HAVE to get rid of ANY of those, but you'll almost certainly find this process easier without sugars and sugary foods (juice included) or starches. Dieting on low calories is hard enough. Dieting on low protein and high carbohydrate is flat out misery, ESPECIALLY for women, and ESPECIALLY while significantly overfat. The most satiating foods are the proteins. The least are the carbohydrates. Fats are somewhere in the middle, but they're extremely satiating for the very overweight. Over time, as you lean out, protein will hold a more prominent role in this regard, at least for most people. (Yep, that's right, as you lean out, the rules change - kinda explains a lot about why most people fail, I think.)

You can try brown sugar-twin if you like. Not sure what you put the brown sugar on.

Rice cakes are something I eat when I'm bulking because they're such a fast hit of glucose. They make it easier to overeat, too. 

You can see why they suck rocks for dieting though, right?  

You aren't eating ANY protein in the morning, only oatmeal. I'd like you to switch out something like 3 or four eggs for this - scramble a few eggs in some butter and eat that for breakfast - it'll stick a lot longer than the oatmeal. 

If you MUST have starch, I'd suggest white or sweet potatoes. White especially - they're more satiating than grains, by leaps and bounds.

I'd also suggest ditching the whey powder. Again, a very helpful addition when trying to gain weight, since whey is not at all satiating for most people and it doesn't fill you up - so if you're a skinny 18-year-old male trying to bulk up, drinking some of your calories makes a lot of sense, but for an overweight female looking to drop bodyfat, this is not going to make your task particularly comfortable. 

How much milk do you drink? Do you love it, or is it just for the calcium - because you might want to consider swapping something like cottage cheese (more protein for your carb buck) for at least SOME of your milk.


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## Nigeepoo (Dec 9, 2008)

On the subject of Insulin Resistance, you may find *THIS* of interest. Here are my OGTT results before/after taking 5,000iu/day of D3. I've never been prescribed medication for Impaired Glucose Tolerance.
	
	



```
Date(D.M.Y) 1st result  2nd result
20.01.2003  5.8mmol/L   8.7mmol/L
11.09.2008  5.9mmol/L   3.7mmol/L
```
The 1st result is fasting serum glucose. The 2nd result (serum glucose 2 hours after consuming 75g glucose) is interpreted thus:- 
>11.1mmol/L = Diabetes Mellitus. 
7.8 to 11.1mmol/L = Impaired Glucose Tolerance. 
<7.8mmol/L = Normal.

Cheers, Nige.


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## Barbs (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi
I have the sugar in coffee, one tsp per cup, with a minimum of six cups a day ( I do drink water aswell). If I have oats then one tsp in there aswell.

The milk I drink is for the coffee, at the moment it is fat free (I tolerate it, I would prefer to have 2%). I have given myself three cups (750mls) a day on fitday, that however might be an over calculation. In which case I could trade 250mls for some cottage cheese. At the moment I am having 125 gms cottage cheese a day, that is equivelent to half a tub. How would 250 mls equate into grams?

I have two rice cakes with my cottage cheese, it makes it crunchy.

I agree with you about the whey not being filling, it is like drinking a glass of flavoured water. If I could eat those calories, that would be great.

As far as hunger goes, I just feel it in the morning. Generally I don't get too hungry and that is most probably why I under eat and skip out certain things. I should focus on consuming all my calories. Believe it or not I am not a big eater and would not know how to consume a maintanance diet of 2660 calories!

I have bought eggs and avocado. To be honest with you I am really scared about these changes, eating more fat and comsuming eggs, which are supposed to be high in cholestral, goes against all the eating suggestions of decades. I do not doubt your wisdom and insite, it is just my socialisation that is screaming!


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## Built (Dec 9, 2008)

Mine did too. But when I switched, my cholesterol dropped like a stone. 

Fats are satiating. They also keep blood sugar nice and stable. 

You're hungry in the AM because your breakfast is all carbs. Get away from AM carbs.


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## Merkaba (Dec 9, 2008)

I agree with Built.

With that said, you can now stop viewing fat as an enemy, and cholesterol too.  Do your 2% milk.  Do whole milk for a while.  As long as you track your intakes.  If it wouldnt cost me 15 dollars a week I'd eat fresh guacamole everyday.  Lots of good fat and fiber.  Made some last night.
And try something different.  If you truly only eat the rice cakes for crunch.  Here's one that built taught me.  Rinse the cottage cheese off a bit to remove the saltiness.  Add some vanilla flavoring and/or cherry or strawberry fat-free jello to make a cheesecake-ish like desert thingy, high in protein.  Add some sugar free sweetener if you like.

I think I've read a few studies that link high cholesterol in blood serum stemming from a high intake of carbohydrates. 
And i think once you get your diet better you'll feel so much better.  Sugaring six cups of coffee along with everything else takes its toll.


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## Barbs (Dec 10, 2008)

I tasted some Splenda, a freind gave me some she had got from the USA. I liked it, unfortunately we do not have an equivelent over here, otherwise I would use that. Only Aspartane, and that is aweful stuff.

I am getting into tracking and as I get more confident, I will change things. I did tonight....I had beef jerky instead of tuna and cottage cheese.

So what is the situation with chocolate? I love the stuff


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## Barbs (Dec 10, 2008)

The more I read, the more I begin to understand, the science of eating correctly.


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## Built (Dec 10, 2008)

Nothing wrong with chocolate. If you have the calorie budget for it, go for it. 

Can you order Splenda online?


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## Merkaba (Dec 11, 2008)

I eat chocolate about everyday.  But I'm needing about 3500 calories right now too.


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## Barbs (Dec 11, 2008)

Oh Merkaba you are sooooooo lucky!!

I will have to make sure that over the festive season I have a defecit somewhere, because Xmas is just not the same without some chocolate.

Well my personal trainer (whom I can totally not afford) has got back to me with stats:
body fat (caliper measured) is at 47%
So my projected lean athletic figure is 65kg
I have given myself a goal of 80kgs, but my next baby step is to get down to 105kgs

So, what would be a really realistic final weight? Look I'd love to be ripped and shredded, but lets keep things simple so I do not go into a melt down

I have not tried to get Splenda online. I have a brother in Boulder, Colorado who I can tap into though.


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## Built (Dec 11, 2008)

Barbs said:


> Oh Merkaba you are sooooooo lucky!!
> 
> I will have to make sure that over the festive season I have a deficit somewhere, because Xmas is just not the same without some chocolate.
> 
> ...



Okay, you're 110 kg (242 lbs) with 47% bodyfat, putting you at 128 lbs (58 kg) of lean mass.  If you neither gain nor lose lean mass, you'll be at 20% bodyfat (not shredded, but athletic lean for a woman) at 160 lbs (73kg). With these same assumptions, at 65kg you'd be at 10% bodyfat. I've never been 10% bodyfat my entire life. I'm 14% bodyfat in my avatar. Your personal trainer is on crack if he thinks you'll get down to ten percent bodyfat. Ask him how much lean mass he expects you to lose as you diet down to 65 kg.


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## Merkaba (Dec 11, 2008)

Yea well I'm trying to gain weight Barbs but don't drive yourself crazy.  I would go really clean and low for two days or so before the big day.  You can make it two or three days strict cant you?  But granted, you'll feel worse physically (not just emotionally) if you over consume the christmas victuals.  I'd give a pound or two around christmas time or your favorite holiday.  Enjoy yourself.  

I also wonder about your trainer. But hey, they are a dime a double dozen nowadays. Goals are good but you don't want them to be unrealistic.  I would say just try to keep losing.  Its hard to lose more than a pound or two a week without feeling semi starved...in my opinion.


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## itsmeinshape (Dec 11, 2008)

Good luck. you have good goals..


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## samadamsboyee (Dec 11, 2008)

Yes, the gadgets are crap.  Don't stress out so much on the eating part, it make backfire, do what you know is right and eat well and balanced.


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## Built (Dec 12, 2008)

Um, Samadamboyee, diet is critical here. Balance is an outcome, not an input: if it doesn't work for you, it ain't balanced.


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## Barbs (Dec 12, 2008)

Thanks again, you people are a great encouragement.

I am happy today, because I increased my leg press today by 20kgs, and I feel I can do a bit more, as my reps didn't kill me.

I have found a sweetener here that does not contain aspartame or saccharin. It is the small things in life that count!


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## Logman (Dec 12, 2008)

I used teh Leg Press machine for a few months when I started and it did absolutely nothing.  I can't get over how useless that machine is.  Nothing can replace good old fashioned squats.


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## Built (Dec 12, 2008)

Logman said:


> I used teh Leg Press machine for a few months when I started and it did absolutely nothing.  I can't get over how useless that machine is.  Nothing can replace good old fashioned squats.



In general I agree completely. 

However, Barbs is about 80-90 lbs (35-40kg) overweight and JUST getting started at this. For her, even an unweighted squat is weighted. When I first started, I was about 40 lbs overweight (20kg) and it took me three months to work up to squatting the bar.

While she brings up her leg strength and drops weight, leg press is likely a necessary band-aid. 

That being said, Barbs, as soon as you are able, try doing unweighed squats instead of leg press, gradually adding weight by doing goblet squats until you can at least squat as much as an Olympic barbell (20kg).


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## Merkaba (Dec 12, 2008)

Logman said:


> I used teh Leg Press machine for a few months when I started and it did absolutely nothing.  I can't get over how useless that machine is.  Nothing can replace good old fashioned squats.



Yea it did, it burned calories and worked quite a few muscles.  

I wonder why so many pro builders use the leg press machine....


In any event yea we have to walk here before we run here.  


Barb be sure you research proper squatting form before you go at the squats.


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## Barbs (Dec 13, 2008)

Damn....I have cut out the sugar. I've eaten the eggs and avocado and I am still friggin hungry!


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## jhawkin1 (Dec 13, 2008)

Snack on a handful of raw almonds


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## jhawkin1 (Dec 13, 2008)

Drink plenty of water


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## danzik17 (Dec 13, 2008)

Barbs said:


> Damn....I have cut out the sugar. I've eaten the eggs and avocado and I am still friggin hungry!



If you've eaten the amount of calories allotted for the meal (don't shortchange yourself and eat too little on purpose) then go ahead and fill up on greens.  Brussel sprouts or brocolli are two of my favorite foods for doing exactly that.


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## danzik17 (Dec 13, 2008)

Built said:


> When I first started, I was about 40 lbs overweight (20kg) and it took me three months to work up to squatting the bar.



Not alone in that.  When I first started, I remember going to concentric failure on bench press.  After two sets.  With the BAR.

Barbs:  Just stick with it, after the initial adaptations to the new diet and training which IMO are the hardest, it becomes much much easier.


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## Ben dur (Dec 13, 2008)

getting started is the HARDEST PART most certainly...

after a few weeks, and more thoroughly after a few months, this will all be a pleasant part of your life

to me, its the gym part which i look forward too each day

others are more drawn to the diet part of this lifestyle, but either way, after awhile, you will enjoy every bit of it.


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## Barbs (Dec 13, 2008)

Please explain goblet squats and concentric failure 

I do like weights and look forward to having decent muscles, once the fat is fought ! 

Hey, I'm even beginning to see some definition in my fat ......hahahhaaaaa


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## Built (Dec 13, 2008)

A lift has a concentric and an eccentric portion. I'll use bicep curls as an example. The concentric part is where you lift the weight and flex your bicep. The eccentric part is when you lower the weight - your bicep is still working, but it's "unflexing" while it lowers the weight under control, right? That's eccentric contraction. 

Concentric failure means you try to lift the weight, and you can't. You can almost ALWAYS lower a weight you didn't quite have the strength to lift. Many of us do this on purpose, with someone helping us lift the weight so we can lower it ourselves, or by "cheating" the weight up with momentum so we can lower a weight we couldn't quite lift. 

This is a goblet squat:


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## Barbs (Dec 13, 2008)

Thanks Built, you explained that well. Now what is the point of going to failure?

I have also tried to research insulin sensitivity, can you explain that? Or am I getting too far ahead? Simple language will do, as my brain shuts down if things get too technical


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## Built (Dec 13, 2008)

There is no point to going to failure. He was just saying how weak he was.

Insulin is like a doorbell that tells your cells there's a delivery of glucose ready to be accepted. In insulin resistance, the doorbell doesn't work very well. So you crank out more and more insulin, to SHOUT at the doors. Some of them let in the sugar, but the blood sugar mostly doesn't get through to the muscle cells. So the fat cells accept the delivery - you feel the blood sugar drop, feel hungry, crave more carbs, and the cycle continues. 

Eventually the fat cells don't accept it all either. At this point, your blood sugar remains too high and you have diabetes. 

There are things that improve insulin sensitivity - movement for example, increases the number of doors through which glucose can enter. In the literature, you'll see mention of GLUT4 translocating to the cell surface in response to exercise. This means the glucose transporters (GLUT4) rise to the surface of the muscle cells (think: "portable holes", like from Bugs Bunny back in the day) and work to let in the delivery. These remain active for a while after you lift weights, which is why you'll usually see suggestions to consume post-workout carb. For normal-weight people, this is a good thing. While you're still overfat, don't even try to get this to work for you, but it will eventually - something to look forward to.


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## Barbs (Dec 14, 2008)

Damn....I had a total calorie blow out on friday Now I have only lost 0.3kg this week. Now I am totally depressed....

This whole thing is a head space thing....


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## Ben dur (Dec 14, 2008)

a pound a week is normally considered healthy

1kg = 2.2 lbs

0.3 kg is almost a pound

dont let a single setback ruin your goals

your not doing so bad
stick with it


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## Built (Dec 14, 2008)

Barbs said:


> Damn....I had a total calorie blow out on friday Now I have only lost 0.3kg this week. Now I am totally depressed....
> 
> This whole thing is a head space thing....



Define "blowout". How many calories over your target did you consume Friday? Also, was it planned, or did you have some sort of uncontrollable craving?


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## Barbs (Dec 15, 2008)

I think it was a totally high fat day. No it was not planned.

I ate about 1000calories over target!

Each week after a workout, I give myself a special treat, a Peanut Bomb (peanut butter, whey, milk...totally decadent and yummy) But about 600 calories worth of yummy! The day sort of spiraled out of control, as that evening I went to a meeting, and supper starter was Avocado and shrimps (I had two) didn't eat the supper. I'm not going to see these people until next year so it was sort of an end of year bash. I also ate peanuts, jerky, wow are they loaded with calories.

I tried to fix the damage and ate less on saturday, 1300 calories.

I do have a positive attitude about this, and I am really greatfull I lost something. I truly believe that cutting down is a headspace thing. This is my first day of eating way over my target, I enjoyed myself at the time....when reality hit, I was not so happy with myself.


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## Built (Dec 15, 2008)

Barbs said:


> I think it was a totally high fat day. No it was not planned.
> 
> I ate about 1000calories over target!
> 
> ...




Okay, so you went 1000 calories over target.

IF (and this is a very big "IF") you gained 1000 calories' worth of weight from those extra eats, and (another big) IF it was entirely bodyfat, here's how the math works out:

(3500 calories = approximately 1 pound (16 ounces) of bodyfat. Note that 3500 calories' of dietary fat weighs a little less than a pound: about 13.7 ounces. Adipose tissue contains a bit of water etc. which accounts for the remaining 2.3 ounces.)

1000 calories = 1000/9 = 111 grams of fat
111g of fat = 4 ounces of fat = 4.6 ounces of bodyfat, (about 0.13kg)

That's right. Your massive bender MAY have POSSIBLY put on as much as 130 GRAMS of bodyfat on you! For SHAME!  

*Moral:* One single bender does not a fatty make. 

Barbs, you're doing fine. Plan the next one - you'll enjoy it even more.


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## Barbs (Dec 15, 2008)

Thanks Built, you're the best!


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## danzik17 (Dec 15, 2008)

Also dropping your calories drastically to "make up" for it the next day is a recipe for muscle loss unless it's a carefully planned occurrence i.e. you make sure you get enough protein with those calories.


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## Built (Dec 15, 2008)

danzik17 said:


> Also dropping your calories drastically to "make up" for it the next day is a recipe for muscle loss unless it's a carefully planned occurrence i.e. you make sure you get enough protein with those calories.



Danzik, while perhaps a problem for someone a few weeks away from contest-lean, I doubt if there's anyone on this board today (note for posterity, 10 days before Christmas, cookies EVERYWHERE!) who is at risk of losing muscle from a day of no food at all. I'm hovering around 20-22% bodyfat and I can assure you I wouldn't lose any muscle from a single 1300-calorie day. Quite honestly, after a day of overfeeding, a day of underfeeding is often quite easy. 

Barbs, you're fine. I'd have done the same thing myself.


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## danzik17 (Dec 15, 2008)

One day?  Probably not.  My thinking is that just like good habits are formed, so are bad ones.  One shouldn't get in the habit of drastically dropping calories each time there is a slipup.


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## Built (Dec 15, 2008)

danzik17 said:


> One day?  Probably not.  My thinking is that just like good habits are formed, so are bad ones.  One shouldn't get in the habit of drastically dropping calories each time there is a slipup.




Why not? If I eat 3000 calories a day one day, and 1000 the next day, averaging 2000 a day I'm at maintenance. Doing this for one day is hardly a danger. Hell, if this is comfortable for me to maitain on a long-term basis, what's the problem?


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## Ben dur (Dec 15, 2008)

BUILT!?

what happened to you?

we call that crash dieting...

by that logic

i could eat 6000 cal a day for a week

and just eat nothing at all for a few days...

balances out to maint over the long run..

does that make it healthy?


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## danzik17 (Dec 15, 2008)

Built said:


> Why not? If I eat 3000 calories a day one day, and 1000 the next day, averaging 2000 a day I'm at maintenance. Doing this for one day is hardly a danger. Hell, if this is comfortable for me to maitain on a long-term basis, what's the problem?



I'm not talking necessarily about health, although I'm sure there are issues with yo-yoing calories to that degree for more than a week or two on a long term programs.

What I'm more referring to is the next day or next hour problem.  You are used to controlling cravings and planning your meals as I am.  For someone not used to that, having blood sugar levels drop through the floor like that from being high could lead to cravings that will just lead to another binging that will likely be a carb fest.  Yes you could argue that depending on what caused the overeating matters, in general it's typically caused by carbs which can screw with insulin/blood sugar levels.

I'm not saying that one should never ever do this, but I feel that it's a method or something that should be reserved for a more intermediate to advanced dieter that knows what is happening and how to deal with the cravings.  I just don't come out and say that because just like in the gym, everyone always wants to do the "advanced" stuff and never really focus on the basics and build a good base.  At this stage I feel that building a consistent diet is more important than anything as in the long run that will make losing/gaining fat on demand a trivial thing.


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## danzik17 (Dec 15, 2008)

Ben dur said:


> BUILT!?
> 
> what happened to you?
> 
> ...



That's taking it to quite an extreme that I don't think anyone was touching.  "Crashing" is a valid methodology when used properly (see PSMF - very short term usage), but I just don't feel that it should be used at this stage without being really prepared for what it's going to be like.


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## Merkaba (Dec 15, 2008)

Barbs youre doing fine.   Like built said.  if you plan it the next time....You can have your favorite.  You gain weight from repition, not in one or two days.   Keep it going!


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## Ben dur (Dec 15, 2008)

danzik17 said:


> That's taking it to quite an extreme that I don't think anyone was touching.  "Crashing" is a valid methodology when used properly (see PSMF - very short term usage), but I just don't feel that it should be used at this stage without being really prepared for what it's going to be like.



im just saying

yeah
give a little take a little

but really

3000 one day
1000 another day
isnt exactly smart dieting...

and it isnt far away from
4000 one day
0 another day

or
6000 one day
0 for 2 days


i mean
when you start thinking like this
bad things happen



am i saying that barb severely messed up?
no

i even said .3 kg is not bad weight loss in a weeks time


BUT

i am saying
moderation and consistency is a healthier method than
adding and subtracting by the day


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## Built (Dec 16, 2008)

Ben dur said:


> im just saying
> 
> yeah
> give a little take a little
> ...



If it's comfortable, why not? 

I'm not saying it's optimal FOR YOU. But if I or Barbs is comfortable doing this from time to time, what's the problem if WE feel comfortable doing this? 

I mean, how different is it from, say, intermittent fasting?


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## Barbs (Dec 16, 2008)

Well, on the day I went low I had:
cottage cheese
tuna
avocado
oats
milk
eggs

That day I had also cut out all the sugar I had been consuming, I did feel hungry. I just thought it was a withdrawal from cutting the sugar.

I have been keeping within the parameters of 1600 and 1700 a day since then.

So how do I go about planning a good "feast" day, and how do I do damage control?


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## Built (Dec 16, 2008)

You undereat a bit in anticipation of it, and you do a workout in the middle of it. 

Simple. 

The undereating you're doing already - ie dieting - and the workout in the middle of it will <caution, geeky language alert> translocate glucose transporters in your muscle cells. Translation: it'll help work the blood sugar into your muscles where it belongs. Yep, a walk after dinner really IS good for you!

*A few useful strategies I've used for "off-plan" days (I call them "natural disasters"):*
Plan them around holidays, birthdays, landmark celebrations (ie every 5 kg)
Have a designated start and end time 
Have an exit plan - know how you're going to eat the rest of the day, and the next day.
Go through with them. A planned cheat is a deal between two people - the one postponing gratification, and the one enjoying the treat. The "you" who is holding off has to trust the "you" who gets the reward will, in fact, go through with it. Otherwise, it becomes too hard to say "no, not now" because it FEELS like "no, not EVER!".


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## Ben dur (Dec 16, 2008)

Built said:


> If it's comfortable, why not?
> 
> I'm not saying it's optimal FOR YOU. But if I or Barbs is comfortable doing this from time to time, what's the problem if WE feel comfortable doing this?
> 
> I mean, how different is it from, say, intermittent fasting?





because your sending your body from a state of hyper to hypo caloric...

pendulum swinging

and if it is comfortable...
(which barbs never said it was)
doesnt indicate in any way what is happening to her body

you know built, what is satisfying to the body isnt necessarily healthy.

from a pure weight loss standpoint, i guess your averaging under maint..
from a health standpoint, i cant see how you think this binging/fasting swing would be in any way advisable...


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## AldiU (Dec 16, 2008)

if you drink any sodas or some sort cut it off completely..strictly only drink water and just cut down on eating a little and eat healthy food and try to cut down on sugar and just do cardio and you will loose weight for sure


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## AldiU (Dec 16, 2008)

Barbs said:


> Well, on the day I went low I had:
> cottage cheese
> tuna
> avocado
> ...


honestly the feelings that go through you when your desireration for that cheeseburger gets destroyed by eating healthy because then you can say wow i feel fit and healthy instead of that junkie eating that burger


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## TrojanMan60563 (Dec 16, 2008)

I don't think eating 3000, 1000, and then 2000 is a dangerous diet practice. It makes up for the caloric boo boo, and I've had 1000 calorie days that are not like I am starving myself. I've had days eating 4000 calories where I am hungry all day long.

Shit happens now and then. I agree that yo-yo diets are not advised. I think people make poor diet mistakes because they don't understand how food works with their bodies. On the flip side if you drop calories for the day knowing what you are doing to balance things out I can't see anything wrong with that. You can eat 1000-1200 clean calories of fish, chicken, eggs, etc and still get in what you need in a day. I would venture to say people that yo yo diet are not eating clean foods.


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## Built (Dec 16, 2008)

Ben dur said:


> because your sending your body from a state of hyper to hypo caloric...
> 
> pendulum swinging
> 
> ...


Actually, in my experience, it usually is. 


Ben dur said:


> from a pure weight loss standpoint, i guess your averaging under maint..
> from a health standpoint, i cant see how you think this binging/fasting swing would be in any way advisable...


I don't see anything in what you've said that would indicate a problem. If you can find me any evidence whatsoever that would suggest otherwise, I'm all ears. I don't eat this way daily, at least not this extremely, but I don't see a problem with it, and certainly not for the occasional "course-correction". 



TrojanMan60563 said:


> I don't think eating 3000, 1000, and then 2000 is a dangerous diet practice. It makes up for the caloric boo boo, and I've had 1000 calorie days that are not like I am starving myself. I've had days eating 4000 calories where I am hungry all day long.


Me too. I'm sure we all have at some time. 


TrojanMan60563 said:


> Shit happens now and then. I agree that yo-yo diets are not advised. I think people make poor diet mistakes because they don't understand how food works with their bodies. On the flip side if you drop calories for the day knowing what you are doing to balance things out I can't see anything wrong with that. You can eat 1000-1200 clean calories of fish, chicken, eggs, etc and still get in what you need in a day. I would venture to say people that yo yo diet are not eating clean foods.



Bingo. We're not talking about those poor souls eating "the cabbage soup diet". If you make sure you're adequately nourished and hitting your targets on average, a two-day high-low cycle is no better than "exactly the same every day". Hell, I'd hazard a bet that there are health benefits to zig-zagging, at least if you listen to the IF folks. 

Barbs, sorry for the thread jack. I think you're seeing a lot of reactions based out of concern that you simply decide to "starve yourself down to skinny", but I don't see any evidence of this in you. You appear to have your head on and are approaching this in a rational manner so as to maintain the losses you are creating.

How are your workouts?


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## Ben dur (Dec 16, 2008)

that is one thing i can say i have never agree with about this forum...

if there isnt a study backing up someones argument then it is instantly disregarded...

you should show me a study that says "zigzagging" is healthy...

your the one recommending a controversial idea...

im recommending a consistent diet...

there are thousands of people who have used consistent diets and reached there goals...

honestly if someone is trying to loose body fat desperately... then whatever it takes to keep a deficit.. i guess

but from a health standpoint...
i stand by my statement 

consistency

are you going to argue that zigzagging is better than being consistent and disciplined?

if so, YOU should be the one supplying a study...
i dont think anyone disagrees that consistency works...


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## Ben dur (Dec 16, 2008)

Built said:


> Actually, in my experience, it usually is.



following what was comfortable could arguably be the reason barb is in this position.






this is getting out of hand to me...
i dont want to hyjack barbs thread


i will not argue my point any further...


-----------------------------
BARB

follow builts advice
she is very knowledgeable about weight loss and nutrition

she will get you in great shape

that is not to say that everyone will always agree with what you are doing

but if you keep at it you will meet your goals


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## Built (Dec 16, 2008)

Usually we overeat because we're NOT comfortable. I sure did back in my "low fat" days - THAT was uncomfortable. Once I ate food that induced satiety, I felt comfortable on less food. 

Eye of the beholder I guess.


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## Merkaba (Dec 16, 2008)

I don't see anything wrong with a zero calorie day or even two days in moderation. Especially over a rest period. The thing I enjoy is how nice it feels to not have to worry about what youre gonna eat.  And you actually have a good bit of time to get other things done.  The most I've gone is about 36 hours.  About 20 or so without water.   Felt great.  I always start recovery with an apple.  Eating junk after a fast made me feel the shittiest I've ever felt.   I'm an evolution guy and I think we are designed to be able to make it through a sleep cycle, or a "day" without eating.   A zero calorie 48 hours probably is better for you than the typical water cut before a show.  

I know there's a pro football player that is a strict muslim or something eastern, and his fast usually falls during like spring practice or some practice time, He fasts during so many days and this includes something like a day time fast where no food OR water is consumed.  He said he had to prepare, and that it wasnt that bad.    I'm sure one could google this, I'm getting ready for bed.  Occasional yo yo to me isn't that big a deal.  I think if it was made regular the body would adapt to it pretty well like it attempts to adapt to the typical crap we shove in it and any other habit.


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## Barbs (Dec 17, 2008)

Hey, no problem with the hijacking. I am here to learn, and I find the input encouraging and insightful. We all have our own journeys and things we have learned, sharing our journeys makes for good community and helps others.

Built, my workouts are going well. I find I am steadily having to increase my weights, as they start to feel too light to be doing any work.
My bicep curls are at 8kgs
Leg press are at 60kgs getting to 70kgs soon
Lat and tricep pull downs are at about 45kgs

I do other stuff but I don't know thier names.


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## Barbs (Dec 22, 2008)

Yeeehaaaaa.......

I lost 0.75kgs this week


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## Ben dur (Dec 22, 2008)

keep  it up!

if you continue to work hard your improvements will continue as well


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## Built (Dec 22, 2008)

Barbs said:


> Yeeehaaaaa.......
> 
> I lost 0.75kgs this week



Fantastic!  

Isn't this great? You get to start the new year already on the right track!


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## TrojanMan60563 (Dec 22, 2008)

Congrats Barbs! Before long you will need to go shopping for smaller clothes.


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## Barbs (Dec 28, 2008)

Ok, so I took the week off, no tracking no dieting, I just enjoyed myself. Well, I only gained 0.3kg, which I am not freaked out about, considering the fun i had!

I am back on track, and looking forward to the new week.

I wish every one a prosperous and peaceful New Year.


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## Nigeepoo (Dec 28, 2008)

Barbs said:


> ...Well, I only gained 0.3kg, which I am not freaked out about, considering the fun i had!...


I bet that was glycogen+water weight. I put on 2kg (4.4lbs) over Christmas Day & Boxing Day and it's all come off again.


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## Skib (Dec 28, 2008)

0.3kg is like 0.67lb... that number would mean nothing to me on a scale whether it was a weight loss or gain...

even a 5lb weight gain or loss is negligable to me... my weight easily fluctuates between +/- 5lbs a day depending on time of day, how much i've had to eat or drink, if i've pooped yet, glycogen levels, etc.

i agree weight loss should be gradual but i wouldn't focus so much on such small increments


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## Ben dur (Dec 28, 2008)

Skib said:


> 0.3kg is like 0.67lb... that number would mean nothing to me on a scale whether it was a weight loss or gain...
> 
> even a 5lb weight gain or loss is negligable to me... my weight easily fluctuates between +/- 5lbs a day depending on time of day, how much i've had to eat or drink, if i've pooped yet, glycogen levels, etc.
> 
> i agree weight loss should be gradual but i wouldn't focus so much on such small increments



agreed


additionally if you experiment with standing in different area of your scale (digital readout) you may find a +/- within just a few seconds of a prior reading

affordable scales are not as accurate and consistent as we would like


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## Built (Dec 28, 2008)

I'm even happier to hear you took a relaxed week off than I am to hear you hardly gained anything from it! Nice to know you can do that, hey?


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## Barbs (Dec 28, 2008)

It's wonderful to know I can take a break like that. It has given me motivation to move forward.


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## danzik17 (Dec 28, 2008)

Barbs said:


> It's wonderful to know I can take a break like that. It has given me motivation to move forward.



Yup.  Soon it will get to a point where you can dictate when/how much fat you will lose per week.  It's nice to know come holidays that you can pretty much let loose and subsequently drop any gained fat within 2-3 weeks


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## Merkaba (Dec 28, 2008)

I'm pissed that my gym's scale is broke.  Been that way for a week.


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## TrojanMan60563 (Dec 28, 2008)

Merkaba said:


> I'm pissed that my gym's scale is broke.  Been that way for a week.



Someone is a frequent weigher


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