# Is there such a thing as a healthy breakfast cereal???



## Uthinkso (Jul 3, 2007)

Pretty much what the thread asks...I know there is that Kashi stuff and theres always granola. I haven't gone looking really, but I am on such short time in the morning after the gym that I need to eat something quicker than what I am doing now.  

With my schedule change for race season, I had to switch the gym to the am instead of after work which is an adjustment all its own.

Anyhow, has anyone ever looked into this? Thoughts.... ideas?


----------



## Plateau_Max (Jul 3, 2007)

Have you gone to the grocery store and done your own research yet?  Personally if I were to try and incorporate cereal I would just look at nutritional facts on boxes 'till I found one that met my needs.


----------



## Uthinkso (Jul 3, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> Have you gone to the grocery store and done your own research yet?  Personally if I were to try and incorporate cereal I would just look at nutritional facts on boxes 'till I found one that met my needs.



I intend to this weekend, but figured I'd try narrowing my search.


----------



## tucker01 (Jul 3, 2007)

Fibre 1.
All Bran.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 3, 2007)

Fiber 1

I like some of the GO Lean cereals too.  

Just mind your portion size with cereal though.


----------



## Arnold (Jul 3, 2007)

aren't the Go Lean cereals made with soy protein though?


----------



## JailHouse (Jul 3, 2007)

I just eat my old fashion oats soaked in milk w/ a cut up banana. This taste just like cereal.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

Uncle Sam is another good one.

Yeah, Kashi is made with soy.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 3, 2007)

I think the one i had was Kashi Go Lean Crunch...which was a grain based cereal and didn't have soy.  I can't remeber for sure though.  It has been a long time since i ate cereal.

Uncle sam is good too.


----------



## NeilPearson (Jul 3, 2007)

What is wrong with soy?


----------



## NeilPearson (Jul 3, 2007)

These are good....

Puffed Corn Cereal

Puffed Kamut® Cereal

Puffed Wheat Cereal

Puffed Rice Cereal

You will probably not find any other cereal for 50-60 calories a cup


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 3, 2007)

Just eat Cocoa Pebbles, or Cocoa Puffs, Trix, or Capn Crunch, or Franken Berry, or my favorite ever, Froot Loops.


----------



## Plateau_Max (Jul 3, 2007)

Yeah Juggernaut, maybe instead of milk he should use melted ice cream...


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

i use soy on my oats all the time. it tastes better then milk


----------



## sara (Jul 3, 2007)

I love fibre one!!


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 3, 2007)

noooo...use regular milk mixed with strawberry quick.





Plateau_Max said:


> Yeah Juggernaut, maybe instead of milk he should use melted ice cream...


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

no! i love soy milk mixed with either choco or vanilla whey. it males oats gooey and delicious


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

DontStop said:


> i use soy on my oats all the time. it tastes better then milk


NEVER!  I refuse to drink that stuff.  I'm all set with the increased estrogen....... thanks.


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

just take birth control if it's estrogen you're after.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

Guess you didn't understand me.

I don't want increased estrogen.  Are you kidding me.  Increased estrogen is horrible.  Birth control is the worst thing ever created for women.  It really fucks up womens hormones in the long run and causes a lot of problems.

Soy increases estrogen which means soy is the devil.


----------



## NeilPearson (Jul 3, 2007)

Jodi said:


> Guess you didn't understand me.
> 
> I don't want increased estrogen.  Are you kidding me.  Increased estrogen is horrible.  Birth control is the worst thing ever created for women.  It really fucks up womens hormones in the long run and causes a lot of problems.
> 
> Soy increases estrogen which means soy is the devil.



In guys too?  Maybe that explains my breasts...


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

oh, well soy is good for me. since cutting out most of my dairy i feel alot healthier
cottage cheese is about the only dairy you'll catch me eating...


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 3, 2007)

sara said:


> I love fibre one!!


same here  mixed with the old fashioned oats.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

NeilPearson said:


> In guys too?  Maybe that explains my breasts...


Especially in guys.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

DontStop said:


> oh, well soy is good for me. since cutting out most of my dairy i feel alot healthier
> cottage cheese is about the only dairy you'll catch me eating...


So you eat soy and take birth control?  That's so no healthy for you at all.


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

no negative results here. its not like i drink soy by the gallon it's like half a cup a day. Not to mention my skin is really clear and my "rag" is no longer sporadic.

MUST BE SUPER BAD FOR ME X10


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

You are 18....wait until you are 30 then you may regret your decision for using all that.


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 3, 2007)

NeilPearson said:


> In guys too?  Maybe that explains my breasts...


no, you're just fat, skippy.


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

My moms been taking it since about my age too. She's had no negative effects at all


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

Whatever think what you want, I don't care either way.  My job here is to provide advice based on knowledge and scientific facts.  If you don't want to believe me, go ahead, it's not my problem.  

Do some research on your own then, and maybe you will believe me then.


----------



## BoneCrusher (Jul 3, 2007)

Some smoke ciggies all their life with no problems too ... others are not as lucky.

Point is we are trying to learn a better way to eat and live longer.  Soy is not good for that goal with the increased estrogen.

Too each his/her own though.


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

or you can't answer it. She's older then you and she is doing fine. Might I also add we have no history of any kind of breats cancer or cardiovascular disease, so i dont see how an increase in estrogen is harming us at all. Maybe it's bad for some people, god knows it hasn;t done jack shit to anyone in my family,


----------



## leg_press (Jul 3, 2007)

P-funk said:


> I think the one i had was Kashi Go Lean Crunch...which was a grain based cereal and didn't have soy.  I can't remeber for sure though.  It has been a long time since i ate cereal.
> 
> Uncle sam is good too.



What do you eat then P? Steelcut old fashioned oats?
Personally I have either oats as I suggested in Breaskfast Ideas, thread or bran flakes with fruit.


----------



## Uthinkso (Jul 3, 2007)

All good ideas. I've eaten the Go Lean Krunch before and it was delicious with the 1% milk (skim is the devil, soy tastes terrible to me). I'm wondering what a scoop of the whey in there would taste like heated up or cold. Just thinking of ways to get 30-40g of protein in this little bowl of goodness.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 3, 2007)

leg_press said:


> What do you eat then P? Steelcut old fashioned oats?
> Personally I have either oats as I suggested in Breaskfast Ideas, thread or bran flakes with fruit.



I eat

eggs
sprouted whole grain bread
some fruit


----------



## tucker01 (Jul 3, 2007)

P-funk said:


> I eat
> 
> eggs
> sprouted whole grain bread
> some fruit




Ditto except add some salsa.  Mmmmm.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

DontStop said:


> or you can't answer it. She's older then you and she is doing fine. Might I also add we have no history of any kind of breats cancer or cardiovascular disease, so i dont see how an increase in estrogen is harming us at all. Maybe it's bad for some people, god knows it hasn;t done jack shit to anyone in my family,


can't answer what?

BTW - women close to menopause need the estrogen, you and I don't.


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

I dont know. I dont think it's fair to say that estrogen is bad for me when you dont know my family history or if we've even experienced side affects from it. It's like saying taking melatonin is bad for you. Hell, It's like saying any medication is bad for you, they all have side affects, but that doesn't mean it threatens my health


----------



## P-funk (Jul 3, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> Ditto except add some salsa.  Mmmmm.



oh yea, salsa too.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

DontStop said:


> I dont know. I dont think it's fair to say that estrogen is bad for me when you dont know my family history or if we've even experienced side affects from it. It's like saying taking melatonin is bad for you. Hell, It's like saying any medication is bad for you, they all have side affects, but that doesn't mean it threatens my health


The thing is that you don't know if its going to affect you or not and hormones issues are not really hereditary either.  So just because nobody else in your family had problems doesn't mean you won't.

As BC sort of said you never know so why take the chance.


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

Yah, I don't know. Most people don't know how meds will affect them until they start taking them...that's pretty obvious. But it hasn;t negatively affected me or anyone i know, so to me your advice isn't very sound


----------



## leg_press (Jul 3, 2007)

P-funk said:


> I eat
> 
> eggs
> sprouted whole grain bread
> some fruit



Never seen sprouted grain in English supermarkets, the bread in health food stores is beyond my means money wise. Would wholemeal/granary be ok?


----------



## tucker01 (Jul 3, 2007)

Ezekiel is a brand of sprouted bread.  Usually kept in the freezer section.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

DontStop said:


> Yah, I don't know. Most people don't know how meds will affect them until they start taking them...that's pretty obvious. But it hasn;t negatively affected me or anyone i know, so to me your advice isn't very sound


How can you say my advice isn't sound when it's a medical/scientific facts?    You don't believe in that either?


----------



## tucker01 (Jul 3, 2007)

Jodi said:


> How can you say my advice isn't sound when it's a medical/scientific facts?    You don't believe in that either?



Hell no.. Those evil witch doctors.


----------



## leg_press (Jul 3, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> Ezekiel is a brand of sprouted bread.  Usually kept in the freezer section.



The only bread I've seen in the freezers locally is rice bread. Rye Bread is something like £3 for eight slices


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> Hell no.. Those evil witch doctors.


The funny thing is it's the frauds, and those that can't prove scientifically, that say soy is really good for you.    People actually fall for that shit


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

It's better for you then real dairy, which practically rots in your stomach. And it was a doctor who perscribed BC to me...so....
like i said, most perscriptions/medicines have some kind of side affect, as for they are not natural. so pretty much any perscription your taking jodi, you should throw it in a sacraficial fire and dance around it screaming your blasphemies.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

Are you kidding me?  Dairy does not rot in your stomach.  Show the facts instead of false blatant statements like that.

You really need to get out there and read because you are so far off from the facts.

Of course a doctor will prescribe birth control but why?  For birth control or for menstrual cycle regulation?


----------



## P-funk (Jul 3, 2007)

how does milk rot in your stomach?  ugh.


can someone just post some studies on soy?  i am at work and bored today.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 3, 2007)

also, full studies if we can get them....not fucking abstracts because that is usually pretty lame.

if you can't get teh full study, I will try and obtain it.


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

Jodi said:


> Are you kidding me?  Dairy does not rot in your stomach.  Show the facts instead of false blatant statements like that.
> 
> You really need to get out there and read because you are so far off from the facts.
> 
> Of course a doctor will prescribe birth control but why?  For birth control or for menstrual cycle regulation?



Regulation, but they dont say it's detremental to your helath when you get iot. My idea of something REALLY bad for you is something a doctor has to sit you down and tlk to you about the long term affects of it. You're no doctor Jodi. You can;t just go around saying something is bad for you when you don't even know my medical history
whoopty do
i drink soy
I'm not dieing
im not breaking out in blemishes or rashes
I highly HIGHLY doubt it is going to affect me that much when I'm in my 30's, especially when alot of people in my family have taken BC and havent had any problems with it.
Dont preach to me. If I was ever concerned about it in the least then i wouldnt be taking it.


----------



## BoneCrusher (Jul 3, 2007)

We did a thread on milk a few weeks back that wound up being a soy thread as well ... take a gander.  All our current comments pertaining to soy in this thread were sorta covered in that one.

I agree with Jodi here on this one though. After reading a few hours of data online it really did seem to me that the same marketing techniques the tobacco companies used were in play here with the soy industry.  Kinda pissed me off.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

DontStop said:


> Regulation, but they dont say it's detremental to your helath when you get iot. My idea of something REALLY bad for you is something a doctor has to sit you down and tlk to you about the long term affects of it. You're no doctor Jodi. You can;t just go around saying something is bad for you when you don't even know my medical history
> whoopty do
> i drink soy
> I'm not dieing
> ...


Grow up will ya!  I'm not a doctor but it doesn't take a doctor to know that soy is bad for you.  Do you know smoking is bad for you or do you need a doctor to say that too?  Do  you know alcohol and drugs are bad too or do you need a doctor for that too?  Get what I'm saying here?  It's common knowledge that soy is not good for you.  I will come in here and preach what I know.  You don't like, don't listen!

Oh and grow up!


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

Milk and dairy

"Now we come to one of the most controversial and misunderstood items in the Western diet.

Orientals and Africans have traditionally avoided milk- except as a purgative. But in the Western world, people are told to drink milk everyday throughout their lives.

If we look at nature, we see that the young feed exclusively on milk until weaned away from it with other foods. The natural disappearance of the milk-digesting enzyme lactase from the human system upon reaching maturity proves that adult humans have no more nutritional need for milk than adult tigers or chimpanzees.

Though milk is a complete protein food when consumed raw, it also contains fat, which means that it combines poorly with any other food except itself. Yet adults today routinely 'wash down' other foods with cold milk. Milk curdles immediately upon entering the stomach, so if there is other food present the curds coagulate around other food particles and insulate them from exposure to gastric juices, delaying digestion long enough to permit the onset of putrefaction. Therefore, the first and foremost rule of milk consumption is, 'Drink it alone, or leave it alone.'

Today, milk is made even more indigestible by the universal practice of pasteurization, which destroys its natural enzymes and alters its delicate proteins.

Raw milk contains the active enzymes lactase and lipase, which permit raw milk to digest itself. Pasteurized milk, which is devitalized of lactase and other active enzymes, simply can not be properly digested by adult stomachs, and even infants have trouble with it, as evidenced by colic, rashes, respiratory ailments, gas and other common ailments of bottle-fed babies. The lack of enzymes and alteration of vital proteins also renders the calcium and other mineral elements in milk largely unassailable.

During the 1930's, Dr. Francis M. Pottenger conducted a 10-year study on the relative effects of pasteurized and raw milk diets on 900 cats. One group received nothing but raw whole milk, while the other was fed nothing but pasteurized whole milk from the same source.

The raw milk group thrived, remaining healthy, active and alert throughout their lives, but the group fed on pasteurized milk soon became listless, confused and highly vulnerable to a host of chronic degenerative ailments normally associated with humans, including heart disease, kidney failure, thyroid dysfunction, respiratory ailments, loss of teeth, brittle bones, liver inflammation, etc. 

But what caught Dr. Pottenger's attention most was what happened to the second and third generations. 

The first offspring of the pasteurized milk group were all born with poor teeth and small, weak bones- a clear cut sign of calcium deficiency, which indicated lack of calcium absorption from pasteurized milk.

The offspring of the raw milk group remained as healthy as their parents. 

Many of the kittens in third generation of the pasteurized group were stillborn, while those that survived were all sterile and unable to reproduce.

The experiment had to end there because there was no fourth generation of cats fed on pasteurized milk, although the raw milk group continued to breed and thrive indefinitely.

If that is insufficient proof of the ill effects of pasteurized milk, take note of the fact even that newborn calves fed on pasteurized milk taken from their own mother cows usually die within six months, a fact which the commercial dairy industry is loathe to admit.

Despite such scientific evidence in favor of raw milk and against pasteurized milk, and despite the fact that until the early twentieth century the human species thrived on raw milk, it is actually illegal to sell raw milk to consumers in all but a few states in America today.

It is far more profitable to the dairy industry to pasteurize milk to extend its shelf-life, though such denatured milk does nothing whatsoever to extend human life.

Furthermore, pasteurization renders milk from sick cows in unsanitary dairies relatively 'harmless' by killing some, but not all, dangerous germs, and this too cuts costs for the dairy industry.

It required only three generations for Dr. Pottenger's pasteurized milk fed cats to become sterile and enfeebled. That's about how many generations of Americans and Europeans have fed on pasteurized milk. Today, infertility has become a major problem for your American couples, while calcium deficiency has become so rampant that over 90 percent of all American children suffer chronic tooth decay.

To make things worse, milk is now routinely 'homogenized' to prevent the cream from separating from the milk. This involves the fragmentation and pulverization of the fat molecules to the point that they will not separate from the rest of the milk. But it also permits there tiny fragments of milk fat to easily pass through the villa of the small intestine, greatly increasing the amount of denatured fat and cholesterol absorbed by the body. In fact, you absorb more milk-fat from homogenized milk than you do from pure cream!

Women worried about osteoporosis should take note of these facts about pasteurized milk products. That such denatured milk does not deliver sufficient calcium to prevent this condition is abundantly evident from the fact that American women, who consume great quantities of pasteurized milk products, suffer the world's highest incidence of osteoporosis. 

Raw cabbage, for example, supplies far more available calcium than any quantity of pasteurized milk, yogurt, cottage cheese, or any other denatured dairy product.

Recent studies at the Human Research Centre in Grand Folks, North Dakota, indicates that the element boron is also an essential factor in absorbing calcium from food and utilizing it to build bones.

Even more noteworthy, the level of estrogen in the blood of women given sufficient quantities of boron more than doubled, eliminating the need for estrogen replacement therapy, which is a common stopgap measure against osteoporosis in the West. And where do we find boron? In fresh fruits and vegetables, especially apples, pears, grapes, nuts, cabbage, and other leafy vegetables, where we also find calcium. Nature has already provided abundant sources of all the vital nutrients we need in synergetic form, but man insists on cooking and processing them to death, and then wonders why his diet doesn't 'work'.

Adults should seriously reconsider milk as a constitute of their daily diets, unless they are able to obtain raw certified milk, which is an excellent food.

To stuff children with pasteurized milk in order to make them grow 'strong and healthy' is sheer folly, because they simply cannot assimilate the nutrients.

Indeed men, women, and children alike should eliminate all pasteurized dairy products from their diets, for these denatured dairy products only gum up the intestines with layer upon layer of slimy sludge that interferes with the absorption of organic nutrients."


----------



## BoneCrusher (Jul 3, 2007)

DontStop said:


> Regulation, but they dont say it's detremental to your helath when you get iot. My idea of something REALLY bad for you is something a doctor has to sit you down and tlk to you about the long term affects of it. You're no doctor Jodi. You can;t just go around saying something is bad for you when you don't even know my medical history
> whoopty do
> i drink soy
> I'm not dieing
> ...


Chill out don'tstop.  She wasn't initially talking TO you.  Jodi did what she is here to do and that is advise the members on the merits of anything dietary.   You stomped in and took it sideways.  Relax, take a deep breath, and say ooohhhhmmmmmmm till all is well again.  Or maybe have a glass of soy milk and a smoke.


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

Jodi said:


> Grow up will ya!  I'm not a doctor but it doesn't take a doctor to know that soy is bad for you.  Do you know smoking is bad for you or do you need a doctor to say that too?  Do  you know alcohol and drugs are bad too or do you need a doctor for that too?  Get what I'm saying here?  It's common knowledge that soy is not good for you.  I will come in here and preach what I know.  You don't like, don't listen!
> 
> Oh and grow up!



Grow up? You;re the one arguing with me.
Anything you buy in the grocery store is bad for you
Mmm unless you butcher your own chickens and beef you can look forward to a nice tasty mouthful of GH.
Same in the ol produce aisle. GMO anyone? 
That isnt stopping anyone from eating it though...is it?
Hell I bet your eating more chemicals then you think that aren;t good for you.


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> Chill out don'tstop.  She wasn't initially talking TO you.  Jodi did what she is here to do and that is advise the members on the merits of anything dietary.   You stomped in and took it sideways.  Relax, take a deep breath, and say ooohhhhmmmmmmm till all is well again.  Or maybe have a glass of soy milk and a smoke.



yes I'll be sure to have my single half cup like i do everyday.
my whole 125mL which is apprently going to come back to haunt me in my 30's
oh please.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> We did a thread on milk a few weeks back that wound up being a soy thread as well ... take a gander.  All our current comments pertaining to soy in this thread were sorta covered in that one.
> 
> I agree with Jodi here on this one though. After reading a few hours of data online it really did seem to me that the same marketing techniques the tobacco companies used were in play here with the soy industry.  Kinda pissed me off.


Yeah that was a good thread.


----------



## BoneCrusher (Jul 3, 2007)

DontStop said:


> yes I'll be sure to have my single half cup like i do everyday.
> my whole 125mL which is apprently going to come back to haunt me in my 30's
> oh please.


Jez you are cranky today.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

DontStop said:


> Grow up? You;re the one arguing with me.
> Anything you buy in the grocery store is bad for you
> Mmm unless you butcher your own chickens and beef you can look forward to a nice tasty mouthful of GH.
> Same in the ol produce aisle. GMO anyone?
> ...


No I don't.  I eat organic everything.  All my meats, grains and produce are all organic.  Yeah I pay a lot for it but at least I know chemicals are not being put into my body.

Dont' forget the birth control!  Thats your real danger right there!


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

Well it gets really old when Jodi argues with practically everything i say. I said i have soy milk with my oats and it turns into this. spare me all of it.


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

Jodi said:


> No I don't.  I eat organic everything.
> 
> Dont' forget the birth control!  Thats your real danger right there!



I'm so sure you do.


----------



## BoneCrusher (Jul 3, 2007)

DontStop said:


> Well it gets really old when Jodi argues with practically everything i say. I said i have soy milk with my oats and it turns into this. spare me all of it.


You say argument ... I see discussion.  And actually you got snippy and she was very chilled about it.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

DontStop said:


> Well it gets really old when Jodi argues with practically everything i say. I said i have soy milk with my oats and it turns into this. spare me all of it.


If you gave some fact to your statements I wouldn't have a reason to discuss them would I?


----------



## BoneCrusher (Jul 3, 2007)

DontStop said:


> I'm so sure you do.


For example this one.  She's not taking pot shots at you so why get grumpy?  Put some bourbon in the soy ... might help ya get past the


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

heres a fact
i have soy with my oats
what room is there for facts and discussion there.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 3, 2007)

That is not a study....that is some article written by "who the hell knows."

I just want to see the studies that people are basing their stances on.

Not that I agree with Soy products.....

I just want to see how people have come to the conclusion that a + b = c

For two reasons:

1) people saying research proves this and that; when it proves nothing.  it just suggests statistical evidence.  unless you are looking at the statitics, then you can't draw a valid conclusion.

2) people are talking about how they have read this paper and this research.  I am not talking about reading abstracts.  Anyone can read the one sentence conclusion of an abstract and believe that it is telling you what it is telling you.  In reality, you need to look at the entire study and read what really went down.  Read about the population that was tested, how they were tested, dosages, how real world it is, etc.....that is how you read research.  You have to be critical about it.  Not just reading the abstracts.  

So, I just want to see which pieces of research we are analyzing here.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> For example this one.  She's not taking pot shots at you so why get grumpy?  Put some bourbon in the soy ... might help ya get past the


The result of too much estrogen........

Hey it's true.  That's one of the reasons women get so b****y during menses.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 3, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> We did a thread on milk a few weeks back that wound up being a soy thread as well ... take a gander.  All our current comments pertaining to soy in this thread were sorta covered in that one.
> 
> I agree with Jodi here on this one though. After reading a few hours of data online it really did seem to me that the same marketing techniques the tobacco companies used were in play here with the soy industry.  Kinda pissed me off.



I don't see research in that thread.

Lets talk about evidence based practice here.


----------



## BoneCrusher (Jul 3, 2007)

DontStop said:


> heres a fact
> i have soy with my oats
> what room is there for facts and discussion there.


None. case closed.  Enjoy your soy.  Mix it with strawberries and icecream and have a soy shake.  Bathe in it.


----------



## BoneCrusher (Jul 3, 2007)

P-funk said:


> I don't see research in that thread.
> 
> Lets talk about evidence based practice here.


did you click Jodi's link?  Ya gotta clink the link and read what showed up.

* Clinical and Biological Activity of Soy Protein Powder Supplementation in Healthy Male Volunteers*

* Susan Goodin1,3,4,  Francisco Shen2,6,  Weichung J. Shih3,  Nisha Dave5,  Michael P. Kane3,  Patrick Medina3,  George H. Lambert2,3,6,  Joseph Aisner1,3,4,  Michael Gallo1,3,6 and  Robert S. DiPaola1,3,4 * [SIZE=-1] Departments of 1 Medicine and 2 Pediatrics, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey/Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, 3 The Cancer Institute of New Jersey, and 4 The Dean and Betty Gallo Prostate Cancer Center, New Brunswick, New Jersey; and 5 Ernest Mario School of Pharmacy, Pharmaceutical Industry Fellowship Institute, Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey, and 6 Environmental and Occupational Health Sciences Institute, Piscataway, New Jersey [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]*Requests for reprints:* Susan Goodin, The Cancer Institute of New Jersey, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey/Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, 195 Little Albany Street, New Brunswick, NJ 08903-2681. Phone: 732-235-7472; Fax: 732-235-7493. E-mail: goodin@umdnj.edu[/SIZE]
   Purpose: To determine if a commonly used soy protein supplement exhibits biological activity _in vivo_ and _in vitro_, we evaluated an over-the-counter soy protein powder supplement using blood from healthy male volunteers and in an estrogen receptor _in vitro_ assay. 
  Subjects and Methods: We recruited healthy male volunteers 18 years of age or older that were in good health. Treatment consisted of consuming two scoops (56 g) of pure soy protein powder (Puritan's Pride, Oakdale, NY) daily for 28 days. Serum testosterone and luteinizing hormone (LH) levels were collected on days ???7, 0, 14, and 28 of therapy, and day 42. A reporter estrogen receptor (ER) assay was used to determine the effect on ER-?? and ER-
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_in vitro_. 
  Results: Twelve subjects were enrolled with a mean age of 32.25 years (range 25 to 47). Serum testosterone decreased 19%(±22%) during the 4-week use of soy protein powder (_P_ = 0.021) and increased within 2 weeks after we discontinued soy protein powder. Serum LH concentrations decreased during the 4-week use of soy protein powder then increased within 2 weeks after we stopped the soy protein powder, but the changes did not reach statistical significance (_P_ = 0.20). Soy protein powder was found to induce agonist activity to ER-?? using a reporter estrogen receptor assay in yeast. 
  Conclusion: Soy protein powder decreases serum testosterone levels in healthy men and acts as an ER-?? agonist; the significance of this biological effect with respect to cancer prevention needs further study. (Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev 2007;16(4):829???33)


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

P-funk said:


> I don't see research in that thread.
> 
> Lets talk about evidence based practice here.


Did you read this link?  You have to remember, I don't have the same resources as you.
Effects of Soy on Health Outcomes, Summary of Evidence Report/Technology Assessment, No. 126


----------



## NeilPearson (Jul 3, 2007)

Birth Control is easier on your body than a pregnancy...


----------



## P-funk (Jul 3, 2007)

Jodi said:


> Did you read this link?  You have to remember, I don't have the same resources as you.
> Effects of Soy on Health Outcomes, Summary of Evidence Report/Technology Assessment, No. 126



sorry, I missed that link.  I didn't see it posted.

reading it now.



> Clinical and Biological Activity of Soy Protein Powder Supplementation in Healthy Male Volunteers
> 
> Susan Goodin1,3,4, Francisco Shen2,6, Weichung J. Shih3, Nisha Dave5, Michael P. Kane3, Patrick Medina3, George H. Lambert2,3,6, Joseph Aisner1,3,4, Michael Gallo1,3,6 and Robert S. DiPaola1,3,4 Departments of 1 Medicine and 2 Pediatrics, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey/Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, 3 The Cancer Institute of New Jersey, and 4 The Dean and Betty Gallo Prostate Cancer Center, New Brunswick, New Jersey; and 5 Ernest Mario School of Pharmacy, Pharmaceutical Industry Fellowship Institute, Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey, and 6 Environmental and Occupational Health Sciences Institute, Piscataway, New Jersey
> 
> ...




Okay, thanks BC.  But here is a perfect example.  If we are having an evidenced based discussion, I am going to throw this study out for 2 reasons:

a) Its subjects are male.  Effects differ on things between male and female.  This discussion at the moment is between females.

b) I am going to throw it out because, as with most soy research, the amount of soy that is given to the subjects is a high amount.  56g were given to subject.  That is a lot more than 20-25g of soy milk a day.  It is double infact.  So, dosage is important.

Another strange thing about that study is that it starts by saying the subjects were males aged 18.  then in the results section it says the mean age was 32.5 years of age (ranging 25-47)


----------



## BoneCrusher (Jul 3, 2007)

P-funk said:


> sorry, I missed that link.  I didn't see it posted.
> 
> reading it now.
> 
> ...


So then your conclusions lead one think that this is a bogus study ... .

Possibly anyway ... a bogus study.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

Biological effects of a diet of soy protein rich in isoflavones on the menstrual cycle of premenopausal women

AM. J. CLIN. NUTR. (USA), 1994, 60/3 (333-340)

The influence of a diet containing soy protein on the hormonal status and regulation of the menstrual cycle was examined in six premenopausal women with regular ovulatory cycles. Soy protein (60 g containing 45 mg isoflavones) given daily for 1 mo significantly (P < 0.01) increased follicular phase length and/or delayed menstruation. Midcycle surges of luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone were significantly suppressed during dietary intervention with soy protein. Plasma estradiol concentrations increased in the follicular phase and cholesterol concentrations decreased 9.6%. Similar responses occur with tamoxifen, an antiestrogen undergoing clinical trial as a prophylactic agent in women at high risk for breast cancer. These effects are presumed to be due to nonsteroidal estrogens of the isoflavone class, which behave as partial estrogen agonists/antagonists. The responses to soy protein are potentially beneficial with respect to risk factors for breast cancer and may in part explain the low incidence of breast cancer and its correlation with a high soy intake in Japanese and Chinese women.


----------



## soxmuscle (Jul 3, 2007)

Well, I won't ever touch Soy ever again.


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 3, 2007)

DontStop said:


> Grow up? You;re the one arguing with me.
> Anything you buy in the grocery store is bad for you
> Mmm unless you butcher your own chickens and beef you can look forward to a nice tasty mouthful of GH.
> Same in the ol produce aisle. GMO anyone?
> ...


dontstop, you remind of that douchebag that was booted off hell's kitchen this week. Shut up and stop arguing with jodi.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 3, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> So then your conclusions lead one think that this is a bogus study ... .
> 
> Possibly anyway ... a bogus study.



Nope, not bogus.....just not exactly signifigant to the population we are talking about.


> Biological effects of a diet of soy protein rich in isoflavones on the menstrual cycle of premenopausal women
> 
> AM. J. CLIN. NUTR. (USA), 1994, 60/3 (333-340)
> 
> The influence of a diet containing soy protein on the hormonal status and regulation of the menstrual cycle was examined in six premenopausal women with regular ovulatory cycles. Soy protein (60 g containing 45 mg isoflavones) given daily for 1 mo significantly (P < 0.01) increased follicular phase length and/or delayed menstruation. Midcycle surges of luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone were significantly suppressed during dietary intervention with soy protein. Plasma estradiol concentrations increased in the follicular phase and cholesterol concentrations decreased 9.6%. Similar responses occur with tamoxifen, an antiestrogen undergoing clinical trial as a prophylactic agent in women at high risk for breast cancer. These effects are presumed to be due to nonsteroidal estrogens of the isoflavone class, which behave as partial estrogen agonists/antagonists. The responses to soy protein are potentially beneficial with respect to risk factors for breast cancer and may in part explain the low incidence of breast cancer and its correlation with a high soy intake in Japanese and Chinese women.




again, look at the dosage....60g a day!!  That is huge!  If a woman eats 120g of protein per day, that means 50% of it is soy protein.

Most of the research is done on high dosages of soy.  So clearly.....high dosages of soy are not beneficial.  But, if someone is consuming something as little as 20-25g a day....what are the differences?  What would the outcome be?  These are questions that have not been answered by research.  But, we are still to quick to throw the baby out with the bath water.  Like the whole static stretching before we workout debate.  The research may not be totally specific to what we would do in real life.  While the research is suggesting something, it may not be suggesting in a statistical way that is significant to how others are applying things in real life.

All I am saying is if you are going to read research, you need to be more critical.  You need to look at the statistics and break things down.  Things that happen in a lab (in a controlled environment) may be difficult to re-create in real life (and vice versa).


----------



## P-funk (Jul 3, 2007)

Jodi said:


> Did you read this link?  You have to remember, I don't have the same resources as you.
> Effects of Soy on Health Outcomes, Summary of Evidence Report/Technology Assessment, No. 126



What in this study scares you about soy?   

First of all, this is a meta-analysis.  While they are interesting because they look at a whole bunch of research which fits the inclusive criteria.  Each piece of research contributes a small piece of data to the overall analysis.  The statistics are analized using effect size, with converts the results from the studies used into a common metric so that the researchers can draw comparisons.  The problem with this is that the meta analysis does not differentiate between the quality of the studies used and it may (and usually does) combine unlike studies with way too much variability (think comparing apples and oranges except on a greater scale....now we may be comparing apples, oranges, bananas, kiwi, strawberries, etc.....they are all fruits and that makes them similiar, but they are all very different).  So automatically, there are some problems with putting stock in a meta analysis.

Now, reviewing this study, and all the things they are looking at, there is really nothing that is significant in the study.....they don't have conclusive evidence on much...Look at some of the things in the study:

*Cardiovascular endpoints*



> The majority of studies were of poor quality with a narrow range of applicability. Given the limited evidence and poor quality studies,* no conclusions could be drawn* on the beneficial or harmful effects of consumption of soy protein on these putative risk factors for cardiovascular disease.



*Menopausal Symptoms*



> Overall, the effects of soy protein and/or its isoflavones are inconsistent across studies. Every trial found a decrease in hot flash frequencies or scores in both the treatment groups and the control groups. Thus, the results are difficult to interpret





> The evidence of a benefit was stronger among the randomized trials of isoflavone supplements, which mostly showed positive results???the net reduction in weekly hot flash frequency ranged from 7 to 40 percent. *However, these trials are mostly rated as poor quality due to high dropout rates.*
> 
> There are only 4 studies that evaluated the effect of soy consumption on menopausal symptoms in peri-menopausal women or those receiving breast cancer therapy. *Among these studies there is no evidence that soy consumption is better than control to reduce menopausal symptoms.*



*Endocrine Function*



> Four of these trials found a statistically *non-significant* decrease in testosterone levels



so the difference between those seeing the decrease in test levels and those not seeing the decrease was not a significant enough difference to suggest it being potentially harmful.



> The overall effect of soy on estradiol levels was not consistent. Most of the studies showed a trend for soy reducing estradiol, *although they failed to demonstrate a statistically significant effect*



again, no statistical significance in the results.



> A wide range of soy interventions was used in these trials making a conclusion of the effects from soy difficult. *These trials did not show statistically significant changes in menstrual cycle length after treatments of soy and/or its isoflavones.*



*Cancer and Tumor-Related Biomarkers*



> No study reported the development of cancer as an outcome





> No causal relationship could be established between these markers and cancer because they do not represent known risk factors for cancer



*Bone Endpoints*



> Because there are few long-term randomized trials and a wide variety of soy interventions used across studies, it is difficult to draw an overall conclusion about the effects of soy on bone outcomes





> Overall, among the 5 studies of 1-year minimum duration, no consistent effect on BMD was seen with soy consumption. Studies of shorter duration, likewise found no effect of soy.


*
Kidney Function, Neurocognitive Function, and Glucose Metabolism*


> No statistically significant changes in glomerular filtration rate was seen after 8 weeks of soy protein diet.





> Overall, no statistically significant or consistent effect was noted on neurocognitive functions such as verbal episodic memory. Six studies evaluated the effect of soy on fasting blood glucose. No statistically significant changes were reported.


*
Adverse Events*

This was the only area where things where significant.  Showing that the biggest adverse event was GI in nature.  The dosages ranged from 20-60g/day with no clear relationship between the dose ingested and the adverse events.  But, if you are having GI distress, you would simply stop taking eating the foods containing soy anyway.

the only suspect thing in this section was this:



> However, most women in these studies were post-menopausal and the controls frequently included hormone therapy regimens



So, we can't take that and apply it to the entire population as that is specific to a certaion population of women.
*
Limitations*


> Despite the large number of trials that have been performed, the health effects of soy for many conditions that have been studied remain uncertain.



Aside from being uncertain, the researchers went on to say that the quality of a little over half the studies (55%) was poor....again, a problem with a meta analysis...This part is just awful:



> One-third of the poor quality studies were either uncontrolled, single cohort studies, non-randomized comparative studies, or comparative studies that were unclear whether they were randomized. Another third of the poor quality studies had dropout rates that exceeded 20% or unequal dropout rates between soy and control.



Another problem with this being a meta analysis:


> Comparisons across the myriad types of soy are intrinsically very difficult.



again....apples, oranges, bananas, strawberries, kiwi, grapefruit, etc..

*Conclusions*



> Overall, soy was found to have a small effect on lipids. However, the duration of these studies were generally short, and it is uncertain whether the results would be sustained.





> Soy phytoestrogens are seen by some as an alternative to estrogen therapy to treat post-menopausal symptoms. *However, the estrogenic effect of soy in potentially promoting tumor recurrence raises the concern for its use by breast cancer survivors. The current literature provides no data to address this issue.*





> the evidence does not support an effect of soy products on endocrine function, menstrual cycle length, or bone health; *although evidence was often limited and of poor quality.* No study evaluated clinical endocrine or bone disease.





> While the evidence does suggest a greater likelihood of adverse events with soy consumption, these were mostly minor in nature. There were a limited number of studies with duration of 1 year or longer, thus* the long-term adverse effect of soy in a large population is uncertain.*





> For all outcomes, including adverse events, there is no conclusive evidence of a dose-response effect for either soy protein or isoflavone. However, for LDL reduction, there is a suggestion of a possible dose-response effect for soy protein.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 3, 2007)

Now, I am not defending soy.

Do I think it is garbage....yes.  I don't think soy is a great protein source.  As some of the research is suggesting, it appears to have negative side effects in high doses.  But, if someone is getting 20g of soy a day (or every other day) or whatever, I don't think it will kill them (at least research never looked at it).


----------



## Hoglander (Jul 3, 2007)

I like rice milk. ; )


----------



## P-funk (Jul 3, 2007)

here is one from the american journal of clinical nutrition.

it is a double-blind, placebo-controlled study (subjects either receiving soy or a casein placebo).

The subjects were post-menopausal (50 woman in total) and the subjects had not used a say product for 3 months or taken estrogen therapy for 12months.

the researchers results were that:



> *We found that 3 mo of a high intake of isoflavones provided as dietary soy supplements did not significantly affect these sensitive markers of estrogenic activity*, which suggests that dietary intake of isoflavones does not have detectable or biologically relevant estrogenic effects in vivo in postmenopausal women.




The high intake was to the tune of 40g per day.
the study is here


Does this prove anything?  No, but it is suggesting that in this situation, under the circumstances of the study, this is what they found to happen.


----------



## DontStop (Jul 3, 2007)

juggernaut said:


> dontstop, you remind of that douchebag that was booted off hell's kitchen this week. Shut up and stop arguing with jodi.



no


----------



## P-funk (Jul 3, 2007)

Hoglander said:


> I like rice milk. ; )



i never had it.  Does it taste like regular milk?

i had chocolate almond milk....now that was good shit!


----------



## Hoglander (Jul 3, 2007)

No. It's better than soy in taste. To me milk is more bland than both. You don't have a lot of choices like soy though.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 3, 2007)

Even though we are talking about girls, here is a study i would be interested in seeing (I don't have a subscription to the AJCN).  If anyone does have a subscription, it would be great if you could email me the pdf.  This is very recent and it is a study on men and has to do with post workout nutrition and comparing soy to skim milk (not really specific to our current discussion at all):


Wilkinson S et. al., *Consumption of fluid skim milk promotes greater muscle protein accretion after resistance exercise than does consumption of an isonitrogenous and isoenergetic soy-protein beverage.* Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Apr;85(4):1031-40.  Links

BACKGROUND: Resistance exercise leads to net muscle protein accretion through a synergistic interaction of exercise and feeding. Proteins from different sources may differ in their ability to support muscle protein accretion because of different patterns of postprandial hyperaminoacidemia. OBJECTIVE: We examined the effect of consuming isonitrogenous, isoenergetic, and macronutrient-matched soy or milk beverages (18 g protein, 750 kJ) on protein kinetics and net muscle protein balance after resistance exercise in healthy young men. Our hypothesis was that soy ingestion would result in larger but transient hyperaminoacidemia compared with milk and that milk would promote a greater net balance because of lower but prolonged hyperaminoacidemia. DESIGN: Arterial-venous amino acid balance and muscle fractional synthesis rates were measured in young men who consumed fluid milk or a soy-protein beverage in a crossover design after a bout of resistance exercise. RESULTS: Ingestion of both soy and milk resulted in a positive net protein balance. Analysis of area under the net balance curves indicated an overall greater net balance after milk ingestion (P < 0.05). The fractional synthesis rate in muscle was also greater after milk consumption (0.10 +/- 0.01%/h) than after soy consumption (0.07 +/- 0.01%/h; P = 0.05). CONCLUSIONS: Milk-based proteins promote muscle protein accretion to a greater extent than do soy-based proteins when consumed after resistance exercise. The consumption of either milk or soy protein with resistance training promotes muscle mass maintenance and gains, but chronic consumption of milk proteins after resistance exercise likely supports a more rapid lean mass accrual.


----------



## Hoglander (Jul 3, 2007)

Milk makes me fart VERY loudly. They don't smell bad at all, unlike like my silent egg farts. The rumbles in my tumbly are louder than my egg farts in fact. Milk doesn't like me like it did when I was  little. Soy makes me think P-funk is cute and makes me listen Elton John music. 

I like rice milk.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 3, 2007)

P-funk said:


> Now, I am not defending soy.
> 
> Do I think it is garbage....yes.  I don't think soy is a great protein source.  As some of the research is suggesting, it appears to have negative side effects in high doses.  But, if someone is getting 20g of soy a day (or every other day) or whatever, I don't think it will kill them (at least research never looked at it).


The studies prove enough to me that I don't think pre-menopausal women should be using soy.  Due to today's poor food qualities and environmental toxins, many women, and some men for that matter, are estrogen dominant.  The last thing an estrogen dominant person needs is soy and even at the slightest amount, it's a risk for someone in this situation.  Now take a women on birth control.........do you really think adding in a substance that possibly increases estrogen is a good thing?


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 4, 2007)

DontStop said:


> no


----------



## P-funk (Jul 4, 2007)

Jodi said:


> The studies prove enough to me that I don't think pre-menopausal women should be using soy.  Due to today's poor food qualities and environmental toxins, many women, and some men for that matter, are estrogen dominant.  The last thing an estrogen dominant person needs is soy and even at the slightest amount, it's a risk for someone in this situation.  Now take a women on birth control.........do you really think adding in a substance that possibly increases estrogen is a good thing?



what studies are you looking at in pre-menopausal women?

again, what is the dosage that they are taking.  Not that I am disagreeing with.  Like I said, I don't think it is great.  But, the research is really looking at upper limit dosages of soy.

The birth control issue i will just throw out the window because i don't think normal healthy people should be fucking with their horomones.  I agree with you.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 4, 2007)

juggernaut said:


>



dude, grow the fuck up.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 4, 2007)

Kurzer MS, *Hormonal Effects of Soy Isoflavones: Studies in Premenopausal and Postmenopausal Women,* Journal of Nutrition. 2000;130:660S-661S.

*INTRODUCTION*

It has long been recognized that phytoestrogens exert hormonal effects in cell culture systems and animals, but effects in humans have not been studied until quite recently. The primary hypothesis of most researchers has been that phytoestrogens lower estrogen levels and action in the high estrogen milieu of premenopausal women and act as estrogen agonists in the low estrogen milieu of postmenopausal women. It has been proposed further that antiestrogenic effects of soy isoflavone consumption may lower breast cancer risk in premenopausal women, whereas estrogenic effects may benefit the cardiovascular system, bone and vasomotor systems in peri- and postmenopausal women. Thus, hormonal effects might explain epidemiologic observations of lowered risk of chronic diseases and menopausal symptoms in populations that consume soy.

Despite the growing body of data, effects of soy consumption on endogenous plasma hormones have been inconsistent, probably as a result of methodological differences in subject characteristics, study design and length, determination of menstrual cycle parameters, and isoflavone form and dose. Most reported studies have used randomized crossover or parallel-arm designs, although some studies have had no true control group or diet period. Soy has been provided as isolated soy protein (ISP), soy milk, textured vegetable protein (TVP), soy flour or soy foods; isoflavones have been consumed at levels of 7???200 mg/d, and the lengths of the diet periods have ranged from 2 wk to 6 mo.

The major effects in premenopausal women consuming 45???200 mg/d of isoflavones in ISP, soymilk or TVP include decreased midcycle luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone concentrations (Cassidy et al. 1994Citation and 1995Citation , Duncan et al. 1999aCitation ); increased menstrual cycle length (Lu et al. 1996Citation ); and decreased urinary estrogens, with a preferential decrease in proposed genotoxic estrogen metabolites (Xu et al. 1998Citation ). Increased menstrual cycle length and decreased urinary estrogen excretion may suggest reduced exposure to estrogen, and both have been associated with lowered risk of breast cancer. On the other hand, soy consumption has been observed to both increase (Petrakis et al. 1996Citation ) and decrease (Lu et al. 1996Citation , Nagata et al. 1998Citation ) plasma estrogen concentrations; one study reported increased nipple aspirate volume (Petrakis et al. 1996Citation ), suggesting estrogenic effects on the breast. Other observations include no effects on endometrial biopsy results (Duncan et al. 1999aCitation ) or plasma sex hormone???binding globulin concentrations (Cassidy et al. 1994Citation and 1995Citation , Duncan et al. 1999aCitation , Nagata et al. 1998Citation , Petrakis et al. 1996Citation ). These effects appear to be due at least in part to the soy isoflavones (Duncan et al. 1999aCitation ).

Few hormonal effects have been reported in postmenopausal women consuming soy isoflavones. The major effects reported in postmenopausal women consuming 34???165 mg/d of isoflavones in ISP, soy flour or soy foods include increased sex hormone???binding globulin (Brzezinski et al. 1997Citation , Duncan et al. 1999bCitation ), a modest decrease in the frequency (Murkies et al. 1995Citation , Albertazzi et al. 1998Citation ) and severity (Brzezinski et al. 1997Citation , Washburn et al. 1999Citation ) of hot flushes and vaginal dryness, and a slight increase in vaginal cell maturation (Baird et al. 1995Citation , Wilcox et al. 1990Citation ). One study showed decreased estrogens and no effects on endometrial biopsy results (Duncan et al. 1999bCitation ). These results suggest that soy consumption exerts modest estrogenic effects, likely as a result of the presence of soy isoflavones.

*Thus, soy consumption appears to exert modest hormonal effects in both pre- and postmenopausal women. The effects are generally in the direction of providing health benefits, although they are quite small and of uncertain clinical significance.* Further research must be performed to clarify the magnitude and significance of the hormonal effects of soy consumption, and, if effects are seen, to establish whether the responsible components are the isoflavones or some other soy constituent.
*
Footnotes*

1 Presented at the Third International Symposium on the Role of Soy in Preventing and Treating Chronic Disease, held in Washington, D.C., October 31???November 3, 1999. The symposium was sponsored by Archer Daniels Midland Co., Cargill Inc.-Protein Products, Central Soya, Co., Dr. Chung???s Food Company, Monsanto, Personal Care Products Company, Protein Technologies International, SoGood Int., Solbar Plant Extracts, SoyLife/Schouten, Whitehall-Robins Healthcare, the United Soybean Board and the following State Soybean Associations: Illinois Soybean Board, Indiana Soybean Board, Kentucky Soybean Promotion Board, Michigan Soybean Promotion Committee, Minnesota Soybean Research and Promotion Council, Nebraska Soybean Board, Ohio Soybean Council, South Dakota Soybean Research and Promotion Council. Publication of symposium proceedings was supported by educational grants from the United Soybean Board and the Soyfoods Association of North America. Guest Editor for this symposium was Mark Messina, Nutrition Matters, Inc., Port Townsend, WA. Back

*
REFERENCES*


1. Albertazzi P., Pansini F., Bonaccorsi G., Zanotti L., Forini E., De Aloysio D. The effect of dietary soy supplementation on hot flushes. Obstet. Gynecol. 1998;91:6-11[Abstract]

2. Baird D. D., Umbach D. M., Lansdell L., Hughes C. L., Setchell K.D.R., Weinberg C. R., Haney A. F., Wilcox A. J., McLachlan J. A. Dietary intervention study to assess estrogenicity of dietary soy among postmenopausal women. J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 1995;80:1685-1690[Abstract/Free Full Text]

3. Brzezinski A., Adlercreutz H., Shaoul R., Rösler A., Shmueli A., Tanos V., Schenker J. G. Short-term effects of phytoestrogen-rich diet on postmenopausal women. Menopause 1997;4:89-94

4. Cassidy A., Bingham S., Setchell K.D.R. Biological effects of a diet of soy protein rich in isoflavones on the menstrual cycle of premenopausal women. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 1994;60:333-340[Abstract/Free Full Text]

5. Cassidy A., Bingham S., Setchell K. Biological effects of isoflavones in young women: importance of the chemical composition of soyabean products. Br. J. Nutr. 1995;74:587-601[Medline]

6. Duncan A. M., Merz B. E., Xu X., Nagel T. C., Phipps W. R., Kurzer M. S. Soy isoflavones exert modest effects in premenopausal women. J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 1999a;84:192-197[Abstract/Free Full Text]

7. Duncan A. M., Underhill K. E. W., Xu X., Lavalleur J., Phipps W. R., Kurzer M. S. Modest hormonal effects of soy isoflavones in postmenopausal women. J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 1999b;84:3479-3484[Abstract/Free Full Text]

8. Lu L.-J.W., Anderson K. E., Grady J. J., Nagamani M. Effects of soya consumption for one month on steroid hormones in premenopausal women: implications for breast cancer risk reduction. Cancer Epidemiol. Biomark. Prev. 1996;5:63-70[Abstract]

9. Murkies A. L., Lombard C., Strauss B.J.G., Wilcox G., Burger H. G., Morton M. S. Dietary flour supplementation decreases post-menopausal hot flushes: effect of soy and wheat. Maturitas 1995;21:189-195[Medline]

10. Nagata C., Takatsuka N., Inaba S., Kawakami N., Shimizu H. Effect of soymilk consumption on serum estrogen concentrations in premenopausal Japanese women. J. Natl. Cancer Inst. 1998;90:1830-1835[Abstract/Free Full Text]

11. Petrakis N. L., Barnes S., King E. B., Lowenstein J., Wiencke J., Lee M. M., Miike R., Kirk M., Coward L. Stimulatory influence of soy protein isolate on breast secretion in pre- and postmenopausal women. Cancer Epidemiol. Biomark. Prev. 1996;5:785-794[Abstract]

12. Washburn S., Burke G. L., Morgan T., Anthony M. Effect of soy protein supplementation on serum lipoproteins, blood pressure, and menopausal symptoms in perimenopausal women. Menopause 1999;6:7-13[Medline]

13. Wilcox G., Wahlqvist M. L., Burger H. G., Medley G. Oestrogenic effects of plant foods in postmenopausal women. Br. Med. J. 1990;301:905-906

14. Xu X., Duncan A. M., Merz B. E., Kurzer M. S. Effects of soy isoflavones on estrogen and phytoestrogen metabolism in premenopausal women. Cancer Epidemiol. Biomark. Prev. 1998;7:1101-1108[Abstract]


----------



## leg_press (Jul 4, 2007)

leg_press said:


> The only bread I've seen in the freezers locally is rice bread. Rye Bread is something like £3 for eight slices



How much does ezekiel bread cost you guys in the US/Canada etc? I've never seen it in the UK, only healthy food stores sell small 'blocks' of rye bread and thats quite costly.

Is there anything I can use instead? is Wholemeal/Granary ok or is nearly as bad as white bread? Thought white bread is ok post workout isnt it? as its a fast digesting carb.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 4, 2007)

> *Thus, consumption of soy containing 32???200 mg/d of isoflavones seems to increase menstrual cycle length and the ratios of 2- to 16{alpha}-(OH) and 2- to 4-(OH) estrogens and to decrease plasma concentrations of estradiol, progesterone, midcycle gonadotropins and SHBG as well as urinary estrogens. Some but not all of these effects go in the direction of cancer prevention. Studies suggest that both the isoflavones (5Citation ,19Citation ) and soy protein (20Citation ) may be responsible for these effects.* At the same time, isoflavones do not seem to affect the endometrium (5Citation ), although there is some evidence for mild stimulation of breast cells by soy (21Citation ,22Citation ).


This reeks estrogen dominance right there.  Why would anyone want to fuck with that.  So many women have too low progesterone already!  When you have decreased progesterone you have increase higher estrogen.  Low progesterone can cause PCOS, amenorrhea, dysmenorrhea, fertility issues........the list goes on.

Low progesterone is not something any women should deal with.  Here are a studies on premenopausal women and all them show these effects.
It can also lower T3 levels as well, as shown in the studies. 

Hormonal Effects of Soy in Premenopausal Women and Men -- Kurzer 132 (3): 570S -- Journal of Nutrition
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/84/11/4017.pdf
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/84/1/192.pdf


----------



## P-funk (Jul 4, 2007)

which study are you quoting up there?

one of the studies you have there is showing no significant effects.  the other one is again using a very high dosage (something like 69g/day).


----------



## Jodi (Jul 4, 2007)

The first study which used 32g - 100g.

They all showed some decreased of progesterone and or T3.  

Also the study said 60g but only provided 45g of soy isoflavones.  Just because it says 60G doesn't mean it's 60G of soy isoflavones.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 4, 2007)

yea, that is a literature review...again, it is hard to take information from it becasue it is comparing a bunch of shit that is simliar but not the same.  Also, because it is a review, it doesn't have an inclusion criteria for which studies they are looking at.

are the effects because of the soy?  or because of the isoflavones?

there are still a lot of questions to be asked.

I don't think that soy is all that great.  I think there is better shit to eat.

From the colclusion section of that research review:


> Although these effects are generally in a beneficial direction, *their clinical significance is yet to be established.*





> Future studies should focus on elucidating the responsible components and the optimal forms and doses as well as the dietary, environmental and genetic factors that influence particular subgroups to respond to soy.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 4, 2007)

I don't care what the studies show for amounts.  If something has ill effects it shouldn't be used at all.  To me, that's like saying 1 cigarette a day is fine.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 4, 2007)

P-funk said:


> yea, that is a literature review...again, it is hard to take information from it becasue it is comparing a bunch of shit that is simliar but not the same.  Also, because it is a review, it doesn't have an inclusion criteria for which studies they are looking at.
> 
> are the effects because of the soy?  or because of the isoflavones?
> 
> ...


From what my ND told me, is that it's the isoflavones.  Some of this is anecdotal evidence but, to me, still shows enough negative to stay away from it.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 4, 2007)

Jodi said:


> I don't care what the studies show for amounts.  If something has ill effects it shouldn't be used at all.  To me, that's like saying 1 cigarette a day is fine.



That makes no sense at all.

That is how statistical significance works.....everything we do has impact on our overall health.  We take the good with the bad.  If eating steak is good, but 1 out of 50 people that eat it die, then the statistical significance is small.  People will eat steak and that is the risk they take (unless their name is mercola).  If while eating steak 45/50 people die, then the statisical significance is greater....chances are most people wont be eating much steak.

Driking alcohol causes changes to the body....yet people do it.....in moderation...that is the key.  just like anything, to much of one thing is never good.

No study has ever been developed showing that vitamins are abosibultly necessary to our diet.  In fact, researchers would tell you that a healthy/well-balance diet does not need to be supplemented with vitamins as the individual would be getting their needed amounts of nutrients.  But, we know there are benefits of taking certain vitamins.  Statistical evidence shows that.  So we take our vitamins.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 4, 2007)

Yeah I know what you mean, but after all the shit I've had to deal with and the estrogen dominance etc...to me, it's that bad.  The last thing anyone needs with pre-existing estrogen dominance is to make it worse  

Some people it can have pronoun effects and other it will cause no problems at all.  Everyone is different but those at risk, shouldn't chance it.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 4, 2007)

Jodi said:


> From what my ND told me, is that it's the isoflavones.  Some of this is anecdotal evidence but, to me, still shows enough negative to stay away from it.



that's fine.

you can formulate opinions on conjecture.  people do it all the time.  look at the diet books that are written each year.  Some of them grossly over-simplify the human diet and the author reports on what they believe to be true.

I agree with your ND.  I don't feel that soy is a great overall protein.  I think there are some negative impacts and the research shows that (although it is in higher doses than I would consume daily....so, it may apply more to those that eat soy as their only protein or those that eat high amounts of soy).

Still though, as the research says, more research is needed, to really formulate evidenced based prescriptions of soy protein.

Until then, I agree with your ND.....even if it is my own conjecture.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 4, 2007)

Jodi said:


> Yeah I know what you mean, but after all the shit I've had to deal with and the estrogen dominance etc...to me, it's that bad.  The last thing anyone needs with pre-existing estrogen dominance is to make it worse



I understand what you are saying.

But not everyone will have the same hormonal problems as you.  Not everyone will have the same metabolism as you.  You have to take things in stride, as they come, when working with people.

I can't take all my clients and have them back squat because I back squat....it would be insanity.

I can't have some of my clients eat a diet that is similiar to mine (higher in carbs) because they don't metabolism CHO as well as I do and they don't have the same metabolism as me.

One of the hardest things to do is seperate yourself from those you are working with....does that make sense?


----------



## P-funk (Jul 4, 2007)

Jodi said:


> Some people it can have pronoun effects and other it will cause no problems at all.  Everyone is different but those at risk, shouldn't chance it.



agree 100%


----------



## Jodi (Jul 4, 2007)

Yeah, I agree, no doubt more research is needed.  Look how many products and medications out there that they claimed safe and then overtime the negative effects showed face.  Kinda scary with how much trust we put into the people making these statements.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 4, 2007)

P-funk said:


> I understand what you are saying.
> 
> But not everyone will have the same hormonal problems as you.  Not everyone will have the same metabolism as you.  You have to take things in stride, as they come, when working with people.
> 
> ...


Yup, makes complete sense.  It's your responsibility as a professional to be subjective and open to all things.  My career is not in this field so most research I do is mainly for myself.  Most of my advice is based off that research as well as my own personal experiences.  As I said in the beginning of all of this to dontstop - it _may _cause problems as she ages.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 4, 2007)

Jodi said:


> Yeah, I agree, no doubt more research is needed.  Look how many products and medications out there that they claimed safe and then overtime the negative effects showed face.  Kinda scary with how much trust we put into the people making these statements.



sometimes it is hard for them to predict what is going to happen.

also, changes in metabolism overtime as well as environmental changes, make things very hard to predict.


anyway.....

the reason i took such a long road to getting to the point that I agree was to just show everyone how critical you have to be when you read research and develop evidenced based practice (be it in training, nutrition, physical therapy).  Sometimes, we browse an abstract and we take it as truth....again, none of this is truth.  It proves nothing.  It suggest statistical evidence.  Much like the products claimed to be safe (at first they were shown to be helpful) and then after time are shown to be dangerous.....much like eggs would give you a heart attack if you ate more than 2 a week, like they did back in the 70's and 80's...only to find out how healthy they are for you.

If you are going to read research and analyze the statistics, you have to be critical of what you are reading.  Don't jsut go fishing for things that support your beliefs and don't take what you read to be an absolute....it isn't.  It just means at that time, this is what was found.


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 4, 2007)

P-funk said:


> dude, grow the fuck up.


yessir. sorry sir. It wont happen again.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 4, 2007)

juggernaut said:


> yessir. sorry sir. It wont happen again.



smartass.


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 4, 2007)

seriously! I realize some of my comments at time are a bit, errr sophomoric.


----------



## Jeffreyk (Jul 5, 2007)

NeilPearson said:


> These are good....
> 
> Puffed Corn Cereal
> 
> ...



lol


----------



## KentDog (Jul 5, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> Some smoke ciggies all their life with no problems too ... others are not as lucky.
> 
> Point is we are trying to learn a better way to eat and live longer.  Soy is not good for that goal with the increased estrogen.
> 
> Too each his/her own though.


Agreed. It has been mentioned that some "bad things" are okay in moderation, however, even though I agree (because life should be enjoyed), these things may (and likely) have negative affects on the body which we do not immediately realize. This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend who is aspiring to become a professional kickboxer. He used to smoke weed on and off, but quit once he noticed the affects of it on his body after reaching the level of training/athleticism that he has. I don't think you can ever be too nitpicky on this forum. It is a health/bodybuilding forum after all; I thought that was the point. Some great information posted so far. I have been wanting to learn more about the soy protein debate.


----------



## lojasmo (Jul 6, 2007)

Milk consumption in childhood is associated with the greatest peak adult bone density, but milk consumption in adulthood is associated with increased prevalence of fractures, and with accelerated bone demineralization.



			
				Dynamic Chiropractic
Jan 1 said:
			
		

> While dairy promotions also include praise for the protein of milk as well, this protein may be more of a problem in osteoporosis than calcium could be a solution. The animal proteins of meat and dairy products cause calcium loss.9 The level of calcium needed in the diet depends greatly on the animal protein intake.10 For many of the high animal protein diets of Americans, it may not be possible to consume enough calcium in the diet to compensate for the amount lost to these high-acid proteins.11 For this reason, Americans have among the highest osteoporosis rates in the world, while their dairy intake is also among the highest. Doubled animal protein causes 50 percent more calcium loss. Yet, when a high protein intake is soy-based, a positive calcium balance can be maintained with only 450 mg of calcium per day.12
> 
> The chief concern over bone density is that it gradually reduces with maturity. At a certain point of bone loss, the term osteoporosis is used. This is a level where low-trauma bone fractures become more frequent. Spinal fractures are a problem, as are hip and arm fractures, which are easier to measure for research purposes. The highest level of bone density attained in young adulthood correlates with bone density maintained in later decades. What is not entirely understood is how much impact dietary factors have on these events. Some studies suggest that childhood calcium intake before puberty may have some slight positive effect. At the same time that diabetes, cancer, and other concerns may limit the amount of dairy that should be given to a child, it also appears that bone protection is no reason to promote dairy consumption beyond childhood.
> 
> ...


----------



## Hoglander (Jul 6, 2007)

I like rice milk. There are many more choices.  

Delicious Organics: Hemp Bliss, Hemp Milk, Vanilla, 32 oz, MANITOBA HARVEST


----------



## Seanp156 (Jul 7, 2007)

P-funk said:


> Fiber 1
> 
> I like some of the GO Lean cereals too.
> 
> *Just mind your portion size with cereal though.*


 
I can easily do 3 medium/large bowls not even being hungry.


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 8, 2007)

Seanp156 said:


> I can easily do 3 medium/large bowls not even being hungry.


I used to sit and eat a half box of fruity pebbles every morning. Now, I did a  180; i always eat OF oats and fiber one, with egg whites and/or 30g of whey.


----------



## soxmuscle (Jul 8, 2007)

I was a cereal fanatic, to the point where my mother would buy abnormally large bowls just for me to use.

It wouldn't be outrageous for me to eat an entire box of Trix or Cinnamon Toast Crunch in a sitting.  Of course I was using Skim Milk, so my dumbass mind thought I was eating something really healthy.


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 8, 2007)

same here.


----------



## Plateau_Max (Jul 8, 2007)

Wow, the thread finally made it's way back to cereal.... sort of.

Now to derail that once more.

I think the consumption of soy is just an unnecessary risk when there are so many alternatives that don't come with the negative connotations.  Why have soy milk when you could have organic skim which tastes better anyway?  Why have soy protein when you can have whey and casein?  I understand some people are lactose intolerant or for other medical reasons are forced to search for alternatives to dairy... but if not, why bother?

I drank soy milk for some time but thanks to my beloved wikipedia which led me to many other studies showing the possible risks I just quit and went back to my organic skim.  The study Funk posted showing the positive effects dairy based milk post-workout is new to me, makes me want to make the good ol' post workout shake with milk  thanks Funk.

Metaphor time.  Drinking alcohol in moderation, smoking cigarettes in moderation, cosuming crystal light which is very high in cancer causing chemicals... you know what I see?  I see a kid who keeps sticking his hand into an open flame and pulling it out just before he gets burned too badly, then when his hand cools off he sticks it in again.  There's no reason for the damn kid to be sticking his hand in the fire in the first place.  The moral? QUIT TAKING STUPID UNNECESSARY RISKS.


----------



## leg_press (Jul 9, 2007)

I've decided 'the hell with it! I'll either have oats, bran flakes or wholemeal bread' I cant find anything within my price range or ezekiel bread anywhere near by


----------



## Double D (Jul 9, 2007)

P-funk said:


> I eat
> 
> eggs
> sprouted whole grain bread
> some fruit



I still cannot find sprouted whole grain bread anywhere!


----------



## leg_press (Jul 9, 2007)

Where you from Double D I cant find it in the Uk either


----------



## Double D (Jul 9, 2007)

I am from the US. I have tried WalMart, Dierbergs, and a few others.


----------



## Pianomahnn (Jul 9, 2007)

...without reading the load of posts before me...

I vote for Kashi Go Lean.  Protein and fiber for the win.  Plus, I've grown to like it and actually crave it in the morning.  That may be a problem though....


----------



## leg_press (Jul 10, 2007)

Double D said:


> I am from the US. I have tried WalMart, Dierbergs, and a few others.



I've tried Sainsburys, tescos, iceland, Somerfield, Co-Operative. All the supermarkets in my local area, then only bread that my healthyfood store sells is rye bread and that is very expensive


----------



## jamie1888 (Jul 10, 2007)

Double D said:


> I am from the US. I have tried WalMart, Dierbergs, and a few others.




Trader Joe's, Whole Foods and Costco all sell sprouted breads... they are in the fresh bread sections of the stores. 

Just be sure to put them in the fridge or freezer when you get them because they mold fast!


----------



## AKIRA (Jul 10, 2007)

Double D said:


> I still cannot find sprouted whole grain bread anywhere!



Neither can I.


This thread was awesome.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 10, 2007)

Double D said:


> I still cannot find sprouted whole grain bread anywhere!



look in the freezer section at a health food store.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 10, 2007)

I rarely ever see it at the grocery store.  You have to go to a health food store like Wild Oats or Whole Foods market.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 10, 2007)

really?  I purchase mine at fry's marketplace.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 10, 2007)

P-funk said:


> really?  I purchase mine at fry's marketplace.


I'm not talking about here .  In AZ they are everywhere, even walmart and target grocery stores.  But everywhere else in the country they are nearly impossible to find in regular grocery stores.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 10, 2007)

oh.

Yea, I remeber it being at normal grocery stores in NYC too....but again...that is NYC, so nothing is normal there.

I think when I am back home in Cleveland, I have to get it at Wild Oats though.


----------



## AKIRA (Jul 10, 2007)

Please.  No more cordial shit.


----------



## BoneCrusher (Jul 11, 2007)

P-funk said:


> oh.
> 
> Yea, I remeber it being at normal grocery stores in NYC too....but again...that is NYC, so nothing is normal there.
> 
> I think when I am back home in Cleveland, I have to get it at Wild Oats though.



Ehhhh Cleveland?  What part?  I was born in Euclid Glenville Hospital.


----------



## leg_press (Jul 11, 2007)

P-funk said:


> look in the freezer section at a health food store.



Havent looked in the freezer, I'll lok next time I go shopping. Is sprouted grain bread expensive?


----------



## P-funk (Jul 11, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> Ehhhh Cleveland?  What part?  I was born in Euclid Glenville Hospital.



yup, i am an east sider too!  I grew up in Lyndhurst OH.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 11, 2007)

leg_press said:


> Havent looked in the freezer, I'll lok next time I go shopping. Is sprouted grain bread expensive?



I think it may be a little more expensive. Where you get it at will determine that.  At the regular supermarket here, I get it for a normal price.  At Whole Foods, i have to pull down my pants and let them fucking me in the ass before I get my bread....they rip you off big time.

it is in the freezer section because it has no additives.  if it isn't frozen, it will go rancid fast.  when you purchase it, keep it in the fridge.


----------



## tucker01 (Jul 11, 2007)

Basically can get it in most Grocery stores around here, like stated earlier in the freezer section.  If they have a health section it is usually in there.


----------



## AKIRA (Jul 11, 2007)

P-funk said:


> I think it may be a little more expensive. Where you get it at will determine that.  At the regular supermarket here, I get it for a normal price.  At Whole Foods, i have to pull down my pants and let them fucking me in the ass before I get my bread....they rip you off big time.
> 
> it is in the freezer section because it has no additives.  if it isn't frozen, it will go rancid fast.  when you purchase it, keep it in the fridge.



I figured it would be frozen...

Does it taste the same as regular bread would you say?  For the most part...?


----------



## tucker01 (Jul 11, 2007)

I like it better then normal bread.

But then again, I prefer pumpernickle, and rye bread.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 11, 2007)

P-funk said:


> oh.
> 
> Yea, I remeber it being at normal grocery stores in NYC too....but again...that is NYC, so nothing is normal there.
> 
> I think when I am back home in Cleveland, I have to get it at Wild Oats though.


What's being built over by you, Wild Oats or Whole Foods?  I still like Sprouts better than all of them.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 11, 2007)

Jodi said:


> What's being built over by you, Wild Oats or Whole Foods?  I still like Sprouts better than all of them.



Whole Foods.....Someone was telling me that Whole Foods just recently bought out Wild Oats.  I don't know how true that is though?

Yea, Sprouts for the win.  The prices can't be beat.


----------



## leg_press (Jul 12, 2007)

Is wholemeal or granary acceptable?


----------



## Pianomahnn (Jul 12, 2007)

P-funk said:


> Whole Foods.....Someone was telling me that Whole Foods just recently bought out Wild Oats.  I don't know how true that is though?


Whole Foods put out a bid for Wild Oats which I believe Wild Oats accepted.  However, the FTC put out an opposition to this stating some form of monopoly unfair to the consumer bullshit.  I loathe this decision because of the entry into the health food market of such large chains as WAL-MART!  Whole Foods and Wild Oats will need to merge in order to remain competetive with these retailers.

So, yea.  I like Wild Oats a lot, but the Whole Foods is closer to me.


----------



## leg_press (Jul 22, 2007)

P-funk said:


> I think it may be a little more expensive. Where you get it at will determine that.  At the regular supermarket here, I get it for a normal price.  At Whole Foods, i have to pull down my pants and let them fucking me in the ass before I get my bread....they rip you off big time.
> 
> it is in the freezer section because it has no additives.  if it isn't frozen, it will go rancid fast.  when you purchase it, keep it in the fridge.



I found sprouted grain bread in my local health food shop a 400g loaf is something like £1.45, dont know what additives the have put in it because the best before is March 2008, but 1/4 of the loaf has 45g carbs so it fits in with my macros, and its about the same price as organic 'best as homemade' white and wholemeal bread in supermarkets in the UK.


----------

