# gains w/out steroids



## bmx52 (Feb 15, 2003)

I am new to bodybuilding and weightlifting(been doing it since August) and am interested in setting goals for myself that are tough but realistic.  As I cannot afford steroids, and am wary of the side-effects, given careful training, excellent diet, and all the other things being correct, how big can one with moderate-good genetics get without steroid use?  Are physiques like you see in Muscle and Fitness and similar magazines possible to attain without steroids?


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## Monolith (Feb 15, 2003)

if you're new to bodybuilding, you shouldnt even be considering steroids yet.

big, ripped muscles are definitely possible without juice, but it is a bit dependent on genetics.  the only way for you to know is to stay consistent and hardworking at the gym.  maybe in a couple years you'll finally reach a plateau that you cant break through - THEN maybe you could consider roids.


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## Mudge (Feb 15, 2003)

Can you afford the food, if you can't get the diet down you are robbing yourself no matter what supplements you use. Most people seem to quit or become immediately discouraged when they hear they have to eat right, if your all natural you need all the help you can get. Guys ON gear, will eat even more, I've come across an NPC guy on 690g protein per day, while bulking.


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## ZECH (Feb 15, 2003)

I will be willing to say all the guys you see in the magazines(big magazines) are on roids. If you think you can look like that without gear, your wrong.


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## The Berg Master (Feb 15, 2003)

Yeah, dg806 is right. Who would want to look like them anyway? They are total freaks of nature (and medicine).


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## Mudge (Feb 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bmx52 *_
> Are physiques like you see in Muscle and Fitness and similar magazines possible to attain without steroids?



If your talking Flex and mags like that, no, even much smaller guys are on roids.

There are big people out there, but I seriously doubt you will find someone all natural with 20" arms without being fat, or a serious genetic freak.


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## ZECH (Feb 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> I will be willing to say all the guys you see in the magazines(big magazines) are on roids. If you think you can look like that without gear, your wrong.


I didn't post this to convince anyone to take steriods. I was just pointing out a fact. BTW, you can get very big naturally, but not as huge and ripped like those guys!


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## Fit Freak (Feb 17, 2003)

I think the biggest thing to be aware of is the ability to get big BUT stay VERY LEAN.....that is a huge advantage of roids as well as T3, clen, HGH, etc.  If you're "natural" when you get extremely lean it becomes very difficult to maintain that condition w/o losing mucle.

I would agree that most people you see in magazines...even a lot of guys in toned down mags like men's fitness and men's health are on some gear.  Obviously not anything like the pros but likely something...just lower doses and more mild drugs....just my opinion.


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## DaMayor (Feb 17, 2003)

Yeah, the bastards. 
I'm sure this will elicit some debate (I'm sure it has been OVER debated before) but I'll take natural over cheating any day.


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## MeanCuts (Feb 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Fit Freak *_
> I think the biggest thing to be aware of is the ability to get big BUT stay VERY LEAN.....that is a huge advantage of roids as well as T3, clen, HGH, etc.  If you're "natural" when you get extremely lean it becomes very difficult to maintain that condition w/o losing mucle.
> 
> I would agree that most people you see in magazines...even a lot of guys in toned down mags like men's fitness and men's health are on some gear.  Obviously not anything like the pros but likely something...just lower doses and more mild drugs....just my opinion.



I've went on cutting cycles naturally and lost a good amount of muscle  I tried an ECA stack and it seemed to help with the muscle loss.You ever take an ECA and notice this?


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## Fit Freak (Feb 17, 2003)

Actually I find ECA helps me hang on to more muscle....but I don't find that ECA stacks do much for me anyway...everyone is different.  I wish I was sensitive to the stuff...then I could actually "feel" it doing something.  I think it's as much a mental game as anything!


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## MeanCuts (Feb 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Fit Freak *_
> Actually I find ECA helps me hang on to more muscle....but I don't find that ECA stacks do much for me anyway...everyone is different.  I wish I was sensitive to the stuff...then I could actually "feel" it doing something.  I think it's as much a mental game as anything!



Actually I didn't buy a stack I just bought some MaHuang and took it with my coffee(homemade stack).It worked great and was cheap


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## gopro (Feb 20, 2003)

Just to add some more perspective to this query...I have been bodybuilding drug free for 15 years now...here is what I've accomplished...

-bodyweight when beginning...125 lbs...top offseason bodyweight...268 (14% bodyfat)
-arm size when beginning...11"...arm size now...19.5" (over 20" pumped)
-bench press when beginning...70 lbs...best ever to date 500 lbs

I did NOT list my accomplishments to brag, I did so to show you what is possible with years of hard work, dedication, discipline, and passion...without steroids. And no, I am NOT a genetic freak. I started off weak and skinny as a girl. I have had to work my ass off for every oz of muscle on my body!

Perhaps you can't be Mr Olympia without drugs, but you certainly can get a magazine worthy physique if you are willing to put the work in.


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## kanun (Feb 20, 2003)

Does anyone have any (links to) photos of big *natural* BB's? I'm interested in seeing what natural limitations look like


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## DaMayor (Feb 20, 2003)

> ..I have been bodybuilding drug free for 15 years now...


Key phrase, or term..."years". Keep us grounded GoPro.


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## dvlmn666 (Feb 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> I've went on cutting cycles naturally and lost a good amount of muscle  I tried an ECA stack and it seemed to help with the muscle loss.You ever take an ECA and notice this?




Add some BCAA's when your cutting as well. It seems to help me not sure how it'll affect you though.


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## MeanCuts (Feb 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dvlmn666 *_
> Add some BCAA's when your cutting as well. It seems to help me not sure how it'll affect you though.



Think I will cause I definitely think the added protien(whey) I took while cutting also helped


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## gopro (Feb 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> Key phrase, or term..."years". Keep us grounded GoPro.



Yes, years of training is key, however, I won my first show after 3 years of training and benched 400 after 7 years of training. You need time to build muscle and if you do it right, you can just keep on gaining every year!!


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## P-funk (Feb 20, 2003)

> Does anyone have any (links to) photos of big natural BB's? I'm interested in seeing what natural limitations look like




Here is a picture of Miles Stovall.  He is an all natural pro bb.  If you want to see more natural bb.  Try looking for the magazine Natural Bodybuilding and Fitness 


http://www.exercisegroup.com/nbaf0201msw.htm


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## Mudge (Feb 20, 2003)

Top 2 supplements are dedication, and wisdom. Persistence makes winners.


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## MeanCuts (Feb 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Top 2 supplements are dedication, and wisdom. Persistence makes winners.



Right on


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## kanun (Feb 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by P-funk *_
> Here is a picture of Miles Stovall.  He is an all natural pro bb.
> 
> http://www.exercisegroup.com/nbaf0201msw.htm


Wow  I'm impressed. If I had seen this pic in a mag or something I would've assumed he was on juice, but then again I don't know much about the topic  
Thanks for the link


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## P-funk (Feb 21, 2003)

> Wow  I'm impressed. If I had seen this pic in a mag or something I would've assumed he was on juice, but then again I don't know much about the topic



Just becuase they claim to be All Natural,  are in All natural mags and are All Natural professional cometitors doesn't mean they can still be using gear and gettign away with it.  I think this guy is natural tho.


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## gopro (Feb 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kanun *_
> Wow  I'm impressed. If I had seen this pic in a mag or something I would've assumed he was on juice, but then again I don't know much about the topic
> Thanks for the link



From what I know about Miles, he is really natural. He is a WNBF pro and I plan on standing next to him on stage next year!!


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## Mudge (Feb 21, 2003)

GP, do you have a public opinion on Mike Ashely?


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## bsc14 (Feb 22, 2003)

You guys are a little discouraging.  Are you saying w/o steroids this is impossible? 







Just an example.


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## ZECH (Feb 22, 2003)

no


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## LAM (Feb 22, 2003)

and you also still need good genetics...


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## gopro (Feb 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bsc14 *_
> You guys are a little discouraging.  Are you saying w/o steroids this is impossible?
> 
> 
> ...



Did you read my first post in this thread??


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## gopro (Feb 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> GP, do you have a public opinion on Mike Ashely?



Thats a tough one Mudge. Mike only competed at about 196 lbs and didn't gain much weight throughout his career. His physique was still pretty unbelievable as he was a successful IFBB pro. Another thing is that his jawline screamed GH. I really can't say for sure...perhaps his genetics were on the highest scale, or, he used drugs, but in smaller amounts than other pros.


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## Robboe (Feb 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> -bodyweight when beginning...125 lbs...top offseason bodyweight...268 (14% bodyfat)



No way.

That would make you 230lbs without ANY fat at ALL.

Unless you're 6'6", i don't believe that for a second.

Either your bodyfat was higher than you say or you weren't 268.


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## gopro (Feb 23, 2003)

Ummm...sorry its so hard for you to believe CD. I only plan on competing at 217-220. Skip LaCour once competed very very hard at 231 or so. A 48-50 lb weight loss for a heavyweight is not uncommon at all. After dropping about 11% BF, plus losing about 10 lbs of water, plus some muscle loss from dieting, it all pretty much makes sense.

Sorry I've exceeded your expectations for a natural BBer


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## bsc14 (Feb 23, 2003)

"Did you read my first post in this thread??"

No I didn't.  I have now and it's good to hear.  I don't think I will ever have a body like that but I do want to bulk up a bit.  I would like to be (just for example) 





About this size.  I have a long way to go but I hope to one day be there.  Sorry to bring movie people into it but it was all I could think of.


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## Robboe (Feb 23, 2003)

Skip laCour isn't natural.


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## gopro (Feb 23, 2003)

Vin Diesel is really not all that big. He looks far bigger on screen than in real life. His physique is very attainable for a natural BBer. Good luck in your pursuit!


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## gopro (Feb 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Skip laCour isn't natural.



Do you have scientific evidence to back this up??


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## Robboe (Feb 23, 2003)

Clever. No, really.

I still keep in contact with someone who does the "natural" competitions and currently lives in Miami.

He's always been honest with me and was totally natural up until last year (he did a mild cycle of anavar to offset any muscle loss from the t3 he was using before a comp).

he has trained with, and knows quite well, the likes of Markus Reindhart, Skip, that big black guy who is sponsored by Maximuscle Abe? or Obe? I dunno his name.

But yeah, all use drugs, just not as much as the "pros".


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## gopro (Feb 23, 2003)

Well TCD...I have no proof about Skip, but I take him at his word. He as passed a dozen drug tests and although he looks awesome, he is about 50 lbs shy of IFBB pros of his height on contest day (he was about 205 in his last show). 

Be that as it may, forgetting about Skip. The #s I gave you before about myself are quite accurate...yes, my BF% could be off by a percent as you must leave some room for error. However, those are the stats I achieved at the end of January right before I started dieting.

Remember, I have been training for 15 years and have dedicated myself to getting better every year. Training people is my career and therefore I MUST be "up to snuff" on all of the best training/dietary/supplement stategies for my clients and have the advantage of applying them to myself.

I am 34 years old and plan on being much bigger and better when I'm 44. I think a more positive and open minded attitude about what can be achieved through tons of hard work would help you with your own training TCD.


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## Robboe (Feb 23, 2003)

I'm not accusing you of using drugs.

I'm saying your stats must be off.

If you'd have said 268lbs @ 20%+ bf, then that is more believable. A stretch of the imagination, but believable. But at your height it does not add up. Not from 125lbs.


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## Arnold (Feb 23, 2003)

I believe you gopro. 

however, if you keep going around posting all of these stats, you better post some pics soon!


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## Mudge (Feb 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> No way.
> 
> That would make you 230lbs without ANY fat at ALL.



No offense dude, but stop and think for a second about something. Neither you, nor I, are close enough to what GP is for size to even second guess him for a second. I'm bigger than you by a good margin, but even I can only venture rough guesses on what might be possible naturally.

Fact is, neither one of us can say a thing about GP because we haven't been there, natural or otherwise.


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## Mudge (Feb 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Well TCD...I have no proof about Skip, but I take him at his word. He as passed a dozen drug tests and although he looks awesome, he is about 50 lbs shy of IFBB pros of his height on contest day (he was about 205 in his last show).



IIRC, Skip's older brother is 6'4" around 270 and doesn't lift a DAMN thing. Can we smell genetics?


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## gopro (Feb 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I'm not accusing you of using drugs.
> 
> I'm saying your stats must be off.
> ...



I would have said 20% if that is what I measure, but I measure in at 14%...taken by a fitness professional (but that doesn't really matter as I could tell the difference between 20 and 14 % anyway). And about me weighing 125 lbs when I started...its sad, but true. I was so ridiculously skinny that it was embarassing. My stats are not off...they may be a little extraordinary, but they are honest. I don't know what else to say.


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## gopro (Feb 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I believe you gopro.
> 
> however, if you keep going around posting all of these stats, you better post some pics soon!



Even though you said this "tonge in cheek," I understand what you are saying. I don't post my stats to brag, and I hope its not construed that way. I only post stats when people ask questions or make comments regarding natural BBing and BBers and how they can't get very big...or if they ask whats possible.

I don't regularly take pics of myself...never had a reason too. I do, however, take pics around contest time and you can bet I will post those. Until then, people can choose to believe me or not.


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## gopro (Feb 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> No offense dude, but stop and think for a second about something. Neither you, nor I, are close enough to what GP is for size to even second guess him for a second. I'm bigger than you by a good margin, but even I can only venture rough guesses on what might be possible naturally.
> 
> Fact is, neither one of us can say a thing about GP because we haven't been there, natural or otherwise.



Thanks Mudge. 

Also, what you say about Skip/Skip's brother is true. I spoke to someone (actually the organizer of the MuscleMania competitions...Lou Zwick) about Skip when I competed there in 1995, and he told me that he knew Skip before he started training. He said Skip was huge before ever lifting a weight and his arms were probably already 18". The genetics are there as you said.


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## Mudge (Feb 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> I only post stats when people ask questions or make comments regarding natural BBing and BBers and how they can't get very big...or if they ask whats possible.



Maybe what we should say then, is that you can't get very big without consistent hard work, and dietary dedication, as well as a good bit of education in training methods etc to keep the gains coming.


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## gopro (Feb 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Maybe what we should say then, is that you can't get very big without consistent hard work, and dietary dedication, as well as a good bit of education in training methods etc to keep the gains coming.



That would be a more accurate statement, as steroids allow most to grow even with poor training, eating, and recovery habits. Naturals must me more precise and disciplined in order to progress, unless genetics are unusual.


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## Robboe (Feb 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> No offense dude, but stop and think for a second about something. Neither you, nor I, are close enough to what GP is for size to even second guess him for a second. I'm bigger than you by a good margin, but even I can only venture rough guesses on what might be possible naturally.
> 
> Fact is, neither one of us can say a thing about GP because we haven't been there, natural or otherwise.




You must be so naive.


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## Arnold (Feb 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Even though you said this "tonge in cheek," I understand what you are saying. I don't post my stats to brag, and I hope its not construed that way. I only post stats when people ask questions or make comments regarding natural BBing and BBers and how they can't get very big...or if they ask whats possible.
> 
> I don't regularly take pics of myself...never had a reason too. I do, however, take pics around contest time and you can bet I will post those. Until then, people can choose to believe me or not.



yes, I was just playing. 

however, it would be nice to see your contest pics, or even some pre-contest pics like the week before your show.

as far as TCD, he is obviously a very skeptical person, but the way I see it is you have never given anyone a reason to doubt your stats.


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## gopro (Feb 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> yes, I was just playing.
> 
> however, it would be nice to see your contest pics, or even some pre-contest pics like the week before your show.
> ...



People doubt me sometimes b/c my stats are unusual for a completely natural BBEr. The funny thing is that if I show someone my pics they usually say..."oh c'mon, you take drugs!" Either way I can't win. TCD can disbelieve me on my stats or whatever...that is his right. However, I am glad that most people here at IM trust my advice and therefore trust me about my stats and soforth. To me, doubters make me feel even better about what I've been able to accomplish drug free. On the other side I wish the doubters would believe me b/c one of my goals is to stop people from taking steroids when with hard work and time they can get big naturally.

As for pics. I promise I will post as I close in on my show!!


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## Mudge (Feb 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> You must be so naive.



Quite the contrary, I suspect a good number of people for gear, now that I know a fair amount of it. I know several people in my gym, that I would be very supprised, and curious about many things, if they were not on gear.

However, humans can do amazing things, and as always YMMV - if you dont put forth the effort and dont live the practice, and dont find those tricks of the trade, then you/me/we will always be an also ran.


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## Mudge (Feb 24, 2003)

Yeah come on man, I've wanted pix for like, years now  We need some motivation, and visions of Firestorm prancing holding hands with his 270 pound buddy isn't doing the trick.

Those people in the gym who hardly can break 200 and have been there for years will always be skeptical, I have one of these in my gym, but he "cant" do the diet, he just prances his way around "but but but..."  So far as I know part of the failure of natural bodybuilding, besides the many cheaters (I see them on boards), people end up beleiving everyone uses.


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## gopro (Feb 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Quite the contrary, I suspect a good number of people for gear, now that I know a fair amount of it. I know several people in my gym, that I would be very supprised, and curious about many things, if they were not on gear.
> 
> However, humans can do amazing things, and as always YMMV - if you dont put forth the effort and dont live the practice, and dont find those tricks of the trade, then you/me/we will always be an also ran.



Yeah, I don't really understand why he called you "so naive?"


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## Mudge (Feb 25, 2003)

He may not say so now, but I know he has pretty much pointed the finger at you in the past. I wonder if he thinks everyone with an extra 20 pounds of meat is on gear. If you didn't know anything about gear (GP) he'd probably say you were just hiding your secret knowlege, so yeah, you can't "win" in terms of pleasing everyone.


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## Robboe (Feb 25, 2003)

I said you're naive cause you basically said he's bigger than us so we should believe him. Which is just fucking ridiculous.

Under that proposition, we should believe that Jay Cutler is big from Nitro tech and creatine cause he says so.

I also said you're naive for being such a believer in everything he says. Have you never once questioned him, even if in your head?

And no, i know it's quite stereotypical of most to suggest that anyone bigger than size X must be on drugs since they couldn't get past size X themselves, but i am not accusing Eric of being on drugs. I am _stating_ that his stats are well off if he is to be believed realistically.

Whether i think he has used drugs in the past is my opinion and not something i'm going to publically announce.

But i do think his bf% is well off for a start, as stated earlier.


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## Robboe (Feb 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> I wonder if he thinks everyone with an extra 20 pounds of meat is on gear. If you didn't know anything about gear (GP) he'd probably say you were just hiding your secret knowlege, so yeah, you can't "win" in terms of pleasing everyone.




He may know about gear but if i was seeking advice i most certainly wouldn't ask him for it. That's like getting sex tips off a virgin. 

If he is in fact natural.

And by the way, it's 125lbs since he started remember. Not just "an extra 20lbs".


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## Tank316 (Feb 25, 2003)

TCD.......................have  a nice day.


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## Robboe (Feb 25, 2003)

I don't follow, sorry.


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## Robboe (Feb 25, 2003)

And call me Rob.


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## bsc14 (Feb 25, 2003)

He posted a link of some pics of some guy who never used drugs and was a big guy.  The link was deleted for some reason.


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## Tank316 (Feb 25, 2003)

oh thats ok Rob. i was just wishing you a happy day.


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## bsc14 (Feb 25, 2003)

PICS


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## Robboe (Feb 25, 2003)

Very considerate of you, thanks.

I some how detect some sort of underlying meaning though.

Is my opinion my third strike or something? Do tell. 

bsc, that guy isn't 268lbs, 14% at 5'10".


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## Tank316 (Feb 25, 2003)

bsc14 thanks you.


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## Tank316 (Feb 25, 2003)

nope none at all. just trying to be nice.


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## Robboe (Feb 25, 2003)

Ok.

I'll trust you.

This time.


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## gopro (Feb 25, 2003)

Well, it seems to me that TCD is simply saying 1 of 2 things...

1- I AM in fact natural, but that I am exaggerating my stats, or
2- If my stats are indeed correct, than there is no way that I could be natural.

TCD is allowed to have his opinion, so as long as he is NOT stating that what he says is FACT, but simply his OPINION. I respect his right to his opinion, however, all I can say is that my stats were accurate as listed, AND, that I am drug free for life...THAT IS FACT!

Anyway, no need for anymore about this. I will post pics in the near future. Until then, you can find competition pics of me from 1999, weighing about 195 or so on my website.


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## Arnold (Feb 25, 2003)

this thread is going nowhere.


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## Arnold (Feb 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Skip laCour isn't natural.



I guess Skip is just a big fraud.


*MY STANCE ON THE 
DRUG ISSUE*

by Skip La Cour

Let???s face it, physique-enhancing drugs are illegal. They are condemned not only by righteous, drug-free bodybuilding organizations, but also by local and federal government. The bottom line is, if we want to be respected as bodybuilders, illegal drugs must be removed from our sport. Period!

*read more...*


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## Robboe (Feb 25, 2003)

Christ Rob, you're even more naive than Mudge if you believe that.



And Eric, those two points are EXACTLY my stance.


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## Arnold (Feb 25, 2003)

LMAO

My only point with that post was that Skip takes a strong stance in regards to drug use, there are other articles on that page as well. Typically a bb just does not talk about their drug use, they do not go out of their way to say that they do not use drugs.

By looking over his photo gallery on his site, especially his competition pics he does look natural.  But, I do not know anymore than you whether or not he is truley natural.


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## Robboe (Feb 25, 2003)

Ok, just cause i have time to kill i'll make a few enquiries.

Eric's photos from when he was 195lbs, at around 5% (looking brilliant by the way).












So, if we work this out, it means that he has 9.75lbs fat and 185.25lbs LBM. Both estimates, but even at 10%bf (which he is well below) he still has a good 175.5lbs LBM. But we'll stick with the original estimate.

This was in 1999. 3 a bit years ago. Eric has been training for 17, yes, that's *17* years. A lot of experience. Not easy to come by good gains in muscle after this amount of time. And yet, in a mere 3 and bit years he has went to 268lbs and only went up to 14%bf. let's look at that.

268lbs@ 14% is 37.52lbs fat and 230.48lbs LBM.

So Mr Brosser is trying to convince everyone that in a mere three years he has gained...45.23lbs of LBM.

In comparison, a KNOWN gear user, Dorian Yates, gained 70lbs of LBM in his entire CAREER.

Now, i'm all for genetic freaks and exceptions to the rules, but this people, is taking the piss.

I hope you now understand why i am so skeptical of mr Brosser's claims.

By the way, while i'm at it, Eric, how come a mere gain in ~27lbs (give or take a few) has meant your extremely trim and streamline waist has turned into this?


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## Robboe (Feb 25, 2003)

And before someone jumps the gun, i'm not trying to be nasty or malicious or anything like that.

If i was i'd be calling him names too.


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## Mudge (Feb 25, 2003)

Your not counting water weight, which is an unknown.


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## Mudge (Feb 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> And by the way, it's 125lbs since he started remember. Not just "an extra 20lbs".



I was making a general statement. When I posted pix you seemed to enjoy giving me a hard time, not as much as Golds_Soldier, but I haven't forgotten regardless. Frankly dude, I can't tell that you even lift, so my statement is that I picture you as accusing everyone of using, because they actually have some gains to show after years of lifting. I believe that your goals are probably more dietary than bodybuilding, since that is what you seem to know about, so I am not judging you based on you being a lightweight.

But, with that in mind, how are you to know what can be done naturally and what cannot?


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## gopro (Feb 25, 2003)

TCD...I competed at 195 in 1999...I plan on competing at around 215-220 this year...that will be 4 years later. My offseason weight in 1999 was about 235-240...now its 268. It all fits. 

TCD...believe what you want to believe. It doesn't matter b/c I can't win with you...as soon as I post pics of myself in contest shape at 215-220 I am sure you will insist I am on drugs anyway and begin your lecture on how "its not possible to achieve that without drugs," "Mr Broser is lying." Blah, blah, blah...you have expressed your incorrect opinion and that is enough for now.

You don't believe in Skip and you don't believe me...trust me when I say that your attitude is only going to hold you back in your training. Don't fluff it off...because IT WILL.


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## gopro (Feb 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> this thread is going nowhere.



Actually, it IS going somewhere...in a totally negative direction! There are some people that will be convinced by TCDs rantings and the results will be either that they go on steroids b/c they figure they can't get big without them, or, they will quit training out of frustration, or, they will put a limit on what they can achieve and their body will follow what the mind believes...result: underachievement!!


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## Robboe (Feb 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Your not counting water weight, which is an unknown.




Yeah, you gotta watch out for a steady water weight gain of 30lbs over three years.


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## Robboe (Feb 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> I was making a general statement. When I posted pix you seemed to enjoy giving me a hard time, not as much as Golds_Soldier, but I haven't forgotten regardless. Frankly dude, I can't tell that you even lift, so my statement is that I picture you as accusing everyone of using, because they actually have some gains to show after years of lifting. I believe that your goals are probably more dietary than bodybuilding, since that is what you seem to know about, so I am not judging you based on you being a lightweight.
> 
> But, with that in mind, how are you to know what can be done naturally and what cannot?



No, didn't give you a hard time. I commented in your belief that you could shape your biceps.

And anything that DID come off harsh was purely because you didn't (maybe still don't) understand my style of writing at the time.

You can say i don't look like i train, but it's really no concern of mine. I train, i'm strong and compared to my body of several years ago, i'm happy with the progress and the direction i'm going.

And while you're asking me what can be done naturally and not, if you ask any experienced professional in the field, including the Bryan Haycocks, Patrick Arnolds, Mauro pascales, Lyle McDonalds Polquins and all the rest, they'll give you a safe bet of around 60lbs in a lifetime. In fact, Bryan Haycock, arguably the world's #1 regarding muscle growth states exactly that.


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## Robboe (Feb 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> ...you have expressed your incorrect opinion and that is enough for now.



Actually no, i haven't expressed my opinion.

My true opinion, and i mean this with all the honesty and conviction in the world, is that you are full of shit.

Now please, no one edit that, cause it is merely opinion.


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## gopro (Feb 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> No, didn't give you a hard time. I commented in your belief that you could shape your biceps.
> 
> And anything that DID come off harsh was purely because you didn't (maybe still don't) understand my style of writing at the time.
> ...



Perhaps they are stating an average, but not an upper limit. If they are, they are simply incorrect.


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## gopro (Feb 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Actually no, i haven't expressed my opinion.
> 
> My true opinion, and i mean this with all the honesty and conviction in the world, is that you are full of shit.
> ...



We won't...


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## Robboe (Feb 25, 2003)

Maybe he is stating average, but to add ~125lbs is moving into piss-taking territory.


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## gopro (Feb 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Maybe he is stating average, but to add ~125lbs is moving into piss-taking territory.



What can I tell you TCD...I'm just that special.


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## gopro (Feb 25, 2003)

This is for everyone except for TCD...(from a former thread I started in the training forum)...



99 % of the training forum is dedicated to technique, exercises, routines, etc, as it should be. However, what can really set apart the good from the monumental...a great workout from a mind boggling one, is in your mind. Here are some things to remember when going to the gym...

1-BE POSITIVE...go into the gym with a good attitude toward training. Believe you will do better. Believe this workout will bring you closer to your goals.

2-VISUALIZE...before you get to the gym "see yourself" in your mind's eye lifting heavier, feeling stronger, and successfully completing all sets in your workout.

3-BE AGGRESSIVE...don't just lift the weights, attack them! Treat every rep as if it were your last. Lift like your life is on the line. Do whatever it takes to psych yourself up...yell, growl, think about things that piss you off, hit yourself in the head...get mad!

4-FOCUS...don't talk while lifting. Don't look around. Think about what you are doing, the muscle you are working. The mind muscle connection is REAL!

5-DON'T GET DOWN...if you don't break a record or don't have a great first set, DO NOT let that set the tone for the rest of your workout! Regroup. Leave failure behind. KNOW your next set will be better, and that each set after that will be EVEN BETTER!

6-DON'T GET COMPLACENT...pat yourself on the back after a great set or productive workout, but then, think to yourself how you will destroy your accomplishments in this workout in your next one. Your body is very adaptive, you must push further to progress to the next level.

7-DREAM...don't set limits. F the studies that say you can only get "so big." Screw those that say you can only grow really huge if on steroids. Your body is only limited by where your mind is willing to take you. There are no limits!!!!!!!!!!!!


__________________

 needs repeating...


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## MJ23 (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Just to add some more perspective to this query...I have been bodybuilding drug free for 15 years now...here is what I've accomplished...
> 
> -bodyweight when beginning...125 lbs...top offseason bodyweight...268 (14% bodyfat)
> ...




Impressive, I am utterly impressed, but I think I still do like Dbol for breakfast with my cereal


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## gopro (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MJ23 *_
> Impressive, I am utterly impressed, but I think I still do like Dbol for breakfast with my cereal



LOL! Jeez, I wonder what I'd look like if I did the same?? Scary thought! Anyway, just egg whites and oatmeal for me!


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## Snake_Eyes (Feb 26, 2003)

I'm 250 @ 8%

I started at 120 lbs. 

What's the problem?


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## MeanCuts (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> I'm 250 @ 8%
> 
> I started at 120 lbs.
> ...



Your all natural?How tall are you?Does all natural mean no PH as well?


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## Snake_Eyes (Feb 26, 2003)

I'm 5'11 and a little change.

And yes, I'm *all* natural.


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## MeanCuts (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> I'm 5'11 and a little change.
> 
> And yes, I'm *all* natural.



Damn that's big you compete?


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## Snake_Eyes (Feb 26, 2003)

I've never done anything major, really.


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## gopro (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> I'm 250 @ 8%
> 
> I started at 120 lbs.
> ...



If only it were true...


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## Arnold (Feb 26, 2003)

I am 5' 7" 300lbs at 6% bf.



oh wait, that was in my dream last night.


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## gopro (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I am 5' 7" 300lbs at 6% bf.
> 
> 
> ...



LOL! (You just new a WBBer would join in eventually...can't wait for the others...)


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## Arnold (Feb 26, 2003)

notice how Snake_Eyes only shows up and posts when there is some kind of debate/argument going on with you or me? 

interesting....


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## Snake_Eyes (Feb 26, 2003)

Look guys, you can doubt me all you want.

I'll post pics if you'd like.


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## MeanCuts (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> Look guys, you can doubt me all you want.
> 
> I'll post pics if you'd like.



Yeah bro i'm sure you understand how 5'11" 250lbs at 8% bf is hard to believe think pics are needed to validate.


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## ZECH (Feb 26, 2003)

I'm 27 lbs. heavier than I was a little over two years ago........Went from 199(all fat) to 160(very lean) and stand in about 187 now. Quite a bit bigger in muscle size. Probably about 12%bf now. I think it must be the lazy guys that say you can't do it??? And hell, I'm 39!


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## MeanCuts (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> I'm 27 lbs. heavier than I was a little over two years ago........Went from 199(all fat) to 160(very lean) and stand in about 187 now. Quite a bit bigger in muscle size. Probably about 12%bf now. I think it must be the lazy guys that say you can't do it??? And hell, I'm 39!



Who's saying you can't do it? If you make that kinda statement though you should back it up.


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## ZECH (Feb 26, 2003)

I agree that is big, but also possible. Why does every thread like this have people arguing? Myself, I will never see 250. I would be happy with 210! But I'm thinking like GP!!!!


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## Snake_Eyes (Feb 26, 2003)

Exactly, why cause all the arguments?

You have to believe that its possible, just like I did.

That's how you succeed.


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## Twin Peak (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> I'm 27 lbs. heavier than I was a little over two years ago........Went from 199(all fat) to 160(very lean) and stand in about 187 now. Quite a bit bigger in muscle size. Probably about 12%bf now. I think it must be the lazy guys that say you can't do it??? And hell, I'm 39!



Any DG how many PH cycles have you done?  Do you think they helped?


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## ZECH (Feb 26, 2003)

Three............and absolutely!!!!!!!!! But I think you already knew that!


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## Twin Peak (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Three............and absolutely!!!!!!!!! But I think you already knew that!



I did.  Just making the point to others who didn't to put your gains in the proper context.  It wasn't an accusation, I know you are open about PH use, as am I.


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## ikam (Feb 26, 2003)

Lay off Go Pro.


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## Twin Peak (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ikam *_
> Lay off Go Pro.



GoPro?  That you?


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## ZECH (Feb 26, 2003)

TP, I'm glad you did. That didn't really enter my mind but does make a big difference.


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## ZECH (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> GoPro?  That you?


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## ZECH (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_


I don't think it is..........................his first post was on the 21st.


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## Twin Peak (Feb 26, 2003)

Neither do I, but it WAS funny!

Yeah, I figured you just forgot to mention it.


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## MeanCuts (Feb 26, 2003)

I always thought PH's were to break plateaus?


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## Twin Peak (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> I always thought PH's were to break plateaus?



What does that mean?


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## Arnold (Feb 26, 2003)

the only thing I would doubt about 5' 11" 250  is 8% bodfat being natural, that would be very tough to maintain, or even compete at naturally.

If he said something like 15% that would be much more believable. Most pro bb's maintain 7-8% off-season, at least the one's that do a lot of guest posing, and they are only capable of this due to drugs.


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## ikam (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> GoPro?  That you?



No, it's me.


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## Snake_Eyes (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> the only thing I would doubt about 5' 11" 250  is 8% bodfat being natural, that would be very tough to maintain, or even compete at naturally.
> 
> If he said something like 15% that would be much more believable. Most pro bb's maintain 7-8% off-season, at least the one's that do a lot of guest posing, and they are only capable of this due to drugs.




That only makes me slightly heavier than gopro.

You believe him, don't you?


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## Twin Peak (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> That only makes me slightly heavier than gopro.
> 
> You believe him, don't you?



Does anyone else see the sarcasm in all of SE's posts?  Do you all really think he is being serious?

He is making a fucking point.  A damn good one, at that.


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## ikam (Feb 26, 2003)

Lay off Snake Eyes. You're just jealous.


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## Twin Peak (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ikam *_
> Lay off Snake Eyes. You're just jealous.



ROTFLMAO!

Ah, now I get your schtick.


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## MeanCuts (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Does anyone else see the sarcasm in all of SE's posts?  Do you all really think he is being serious?
> 
> He is making a fucking point.  A damn good one, at that.



*laughing* Yeah i've been keeping up on this thread I know what your saying.I think if ya make claims like that regardless who you are ya outta have some pics to back it up cause it's real hard to just take your word for it.

As far as the pro-hormone statement.I thought they were meant for people who have been training for years and wanted to break a plateau not as a shortcut to getting a good body.


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## Twin Peak (Feb 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> *laughing* Yeah i've been keeping up on this thread I know what your saying.I think if ya make claims like that regardless who you are ya outta have some pics to back it up cause it's real hard to just take your word for it.
> 
> As far as the pro-hormone statement.I thought they were meant for people who have been training for years and wanted to break a plateau not as a shortcut to getting a good body.



Sure they can be used for that.  You are basically dealing with a legal steroid or steroid precursor.  Almost as effective, except that they are not injected so their modality causes a weaker effect.  So your point about what they were "meant for" is lost on me, but yes, when used wisely that is the point.


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## Robboe (Feb 27, 2003)

For fucks sake. Why do people (read: Prince & Gopro) always think i invite people from WBB over here?

I've checked the members on WBB and Snake_eyes, Snake eyes, Snake_eyez, Snake eyez, 5nak3_3y3z or anything even remotely close is registered.

I don't know the guy but i was under the impression he was a powerlifter, not a bodybuilder (and a big one at that).

And yes, i doubt his claims also. Although he only claims to have added 110lbs naturally, unlike Gopro's ~125lbs.


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## ZECH (Feb 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> I always thought PH's were to break plateaus?


Steriods or PH's should not take the place of good training and good eating habits! But like I said I am 39................so I figure I only have 5 to 10 more good years to lift to really gain alot of muscle, so I want to take advantage of it the best I can. Someone 20 to 25 really doesn't  need anything yet.


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## gopro (Feb 27, 2003)

Sorry TCD...I didn't mean to say that you invited SE...he may just lurk and then post only when he see's a "reason" to...like to discredit something I say or claim (and I only mention this b/c he has done it before).

I am pretty sure he has posted his stats before and the were far far far less than he is posting now, which is surely an attempt at sarcasm...a poor attempt, but an attempt.

Anyway, I hope a few of you continue to disbelieve me b/c its just firing me up even more in the gym and at the table! I am more ready than ever to show what a natural body can do!


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## Arnold (Feb 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> For fucks sake. Why do people (read: Prince & Gopro) always think i invite people from WBB over here?



I did not say _you_ invited him over here, I said that is was interesting how the only time he shows up here to post is when there is a debate/argument with me or gopro. 

btw, TCD most powerlifters maintain a bit more than 8% bf.


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## I Are Baboon (Feb 27, 2003)

How many frickin' times are people going to have the _SAME...OLD...DEBATE_ with gopro?


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## Robboe (Feb 27, 2003)

No one asked you to view this thread. If you don't want to read it then don't enter.

And Prince, yeah. I know.

But if SE is being serious with his remarks (no offense to him but i've yet to see a sense of humour from the guy) then it really is a turn for the books. Every other post by the dude has been solid, straight to the point and BS-free.


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## I Are Baboon (Feb 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> No one asked you to view this thread. If you don't want to read it then don't enter.




Well how am I supposed to know what is being said unless I read it?  

Next month, someone new will ask another question, and you'll chime in with the same old attacks on gopro.  They're getting old.  Find something new to discuss.


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## Robboe (Feb 27, 2003)

No.

You've read it now, you get the gist.

If you're reading this post then you're being a very bad boy, mmmkay?


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## bsc14 (Feb 27, 2003)

How long can this go on?  Is this normal on these boards?


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## Robboe (Feb 27, 2003)

I want to see some others actually post their opinions.

It seems like everyone is scared or holding back in case they "offend" the lad. 

And he still hasn't explained how a mere ~30lbs fat accumulation has lead to his waist going from an incredibly thin, what?...30-32"? to that monstrous 38-40" (at a guess).


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## Yanick (Feb 27, 2003)

I'm not holding back because i'm afraid to offend, i just don't know to much on this matter.  I never really follow bb'ers careers and apart from this forum i don't know too many other bb'ers.

But i must say, Rob is making a pretty good point about Dorians Yates' career.  How can a natural outgrow a drug user (i thought genetics at first, but then i realized Dorian used to be a Mr. O, he must have awesome genetics).


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## ikam (Feb 27, 2003)

Ya Chicken Head makes a good point. According to him, Go Pros  surpassed what Dorian did with drugs? Wouldn't that make him a world class athlete who should be competing in the IFBB?


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## gopro (Feb 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I want to see some others actually post their opinions.
> 
> It seems like everyone is scared or holding back in case they "offend" the lad.
> ...



My waist has NEVER been over 36 " at its absolute largest. I don't know what you THINK you see, but your perception is skewed. I really don't know what your problem is, but here is MY opinion...you are a meaningless speck on this earth. Your mind is closed completely and b/c of this you will never reach your full potential in ANY endeavor. You only believe in what your own mind limits you to...you know you can never be as muscular as me or many other bodybuilders so to make your self feel better about yourself, you accuse me and them of lying, using steroids, or any other excuse your small mind can conjure. 

You are just one of those people, and I have met many, that I just laugh at and brush aside. The more people tell me I can't do something, the easier I get it done. Stop wasting everyone's time here...your argument with me is over and your influence on other members here is the worst kind. I don't want IM members to begin thinking like you, closing their minds', and not reaching higher and higher each and every day.


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## gopro (Feb 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> I'm not holding back because i'm afraid to offend, i just don't know to much on this matter.  I never really follow bb'ers careers and apart from this forum i don't know too many other bb'ers.
> 
> But i must say, Rob is making a pretty good point about Dorians Yates' career.  How can a natural outgrow a drug user (i thought genetics at first, but then i realized Dorian used to be a Mr. O, he must have awesome genetics).



I have not outgrown Dorian and will never in my entire life be as big as Dorian. I weighed 268 at 14% bodyfat...Dorian at the height of his career would have weighed about 330-340 at 14% bodyfat.


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## gopro (Feb 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ikam *_
> Ya Chicken Head makes a good point. According to him, Go Pros  surpassed what Dorian did with drugs? Wouldn't that make him a world class athlete who should be competing in the IFBB?



Read above post.


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## Yanick (Feb 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> I have not outgrown Dorian and will never in my entire life be as big as Dorian. I weighed 268 at 14% bodyfat...Dorian at the height of his career would have weighed about 330-340 at 14% bodyfat.



I worded my post incorrectly, i meant that in a lifetime of gains it is difficult to believe that a natural can make more progress than a drug user.  Thats a general statement, as exceptions do exist (like joe shmoe in the gym who juices but doesn't know anything else will still make shitty progress, where as a natural who knows how to train and diet properly will make more progress than him).

I also said that genetics should not be a factor in all of this, because you and Dorian obviously both have great genetics.

But i don't see the point in this argument anyway.  I don't give a shit if you're a juice head or natural, thats something that each person has to choose for themselves, and i'll never look down on a juice head just because he/she juices.  There are many other more important factors to consider about bodybuilders (like dedication, knowledge of the sport etc.)


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## Snake_Eyes (Feb 27, 2003)

That's right. Guys like gopro and myself just show you what's possible with hard work and dedication.


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## Robboe (Feb 28, 2003)

Well that is a shame.

Unfortunately now i think you're both full of shit.


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## Robboe (Feb 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> *My waist has NEVER been over 36 " at its absolute largest. I don't know what you THINK you see, but your perception is skewed.*
> 
> I dunno man, in that photo it looks really large. But i'll give you the benfit of the doubt.
> ...



My only problem is you telling people a lot of BS.

You've done competitions that no one else has heard of, you fail to reveal that some of your "proper" certs have run out and you give _some_ suspect advice (not all).


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## gopro (Feb 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Yanick *_
> I worded my post incorrectly, i meant that in a lifetime of gains it is difficult to believe that a natural can make more progress than a drug user.  Thats a general statement, as exceptions do exist (like joe shmoe in the gym who juices but doesn't know anything else will still make shitty progress, where as a natural who knows how to train and diet properly will make more progress than him).
> 
> I also said that genetics should not be a factor in all of this, because you and Dorian obviously both have great genetics.
> ...



Really, I didn't make any more "progress" than Dorian. Since Dorian would weight WELL into the 300s (actually, as a side note...when I first met Nasser El Sonbaty he weighed 340 and had abs) at 14% bodyfat. Since he started training at around 180 lbs, that would be an additional 150-160 lbs. Now, Dorian never went past about 310, but he sure could've if he wished. Also, the "quality" of the muscle between a steroid user and natural is very different. A natural at 4% bodyfat looks completely different from a drug user at 4%.

But anyway, your input is appreciated...although I can assure you that the only "juice" I've used is orange, grape, and apple.


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## gopro (Feb 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> My only problem is you telling people a lot of BS.
> 
> You've done competitions that no one else has heard of, you fail to reveal that some of your "proper" certs have run out and you give _some_ suspect advice (not all).



I have told people ZERO B.S. I can name every competition I have entered and they all can be confirmed as they have been INBF, NPC, ANPPC, and ANBC...all large organizations, my only cert that has run out or "expired" is ISSA and that is b/c they charge a ton of money to renew and besides I have 10 others and don't really care about my ISSA one anymore, and FINALLY, every piece of advice I have given is equally as reputable as any strength coach on this earth bar none. My success as a trainer speaks for itself and I'm quite confident when I say that. There is a reason I mod on 3 different sites, including one led by one of the most sought after nutritionists in the industry...oh, and pick up the latest issue of MMI magazine (May), and find one of my articles in there (I know for a fact that they get hundreds of submissions, and there must be a reason why the choose to publish what I write).

Crawl back in your hole TCD. You are like a disease that needs to be contained.


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## gopro (Feb 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> That's right. Guys like gopro and myself just show you what's possible with hard work and dedication.



And as for you...please say what you REALLY feel...


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## ikam (Mar 1, 2003)

Go Pro, if I may ask you, what are the 10 other certs that you  currently hold? Or was that a figure of speech? If so, please excuse my inability to catch on to sarcasim.

Sorry to be a bother.


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## Arnold (Mar 1, 2003)

here ya go ikam: http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/personal_training2.php

now why don't you go bother someone else.


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