# what steroids can be taken without testosterone as base?



## BUCKY (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm not looking to bulk up 20 pounds higher. I do well with just an anavar and HGH cycle. I like the strength anavar gives me but as I already know it does not give much gains, if any. I'm not a fan of testosterone as it sheds hair. What steroid can I take along with anavar that will be ok to take without test as base and something that does not blow me up 20 pounds of "air muscles" (bulk that will go away in a few months if not maintained). Is Primobolan my best bet? I read it's also "safer" for an injectable steroid, but pricey. I've looked into Winstrol injectables but I read it's bad for the joints (not good if my favorite workout is deadlift!). Like I said anavar is my favorite steroid, gives me as much strength as when I was on Test E, but without the sides. I like anavar. I just need a little kick but not much. Is Primobolan what I'm looking for? The dosages I'm seeing floating around the net seems like it would require Test as base but not sure if this is true at lighter dose.


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## theCaptn' (Jan 29, 2013)

Tren


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## Valkyrie (Jan 29, 2013)

I would never intentionally build a stack that way. I HAVE intentionally built stacks with very low dose test just around TRT level to compensate for the supression caused by the other anabolic.  If you do that you can really run anything. Its not an exact science and theres a bit of guessing but using a low dose test as a base isn't going to cause you tons of sides or to bulk up.


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## theCaptn' (Jan 29, 2013)

BUCKY is a troll I think. Or just retarded


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## s2h (Jan 29, 2013)

dbol for one..


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## nottybody (Jan 29, 2013)

I personally believe you should never use anything without test as a base. but that's my two cents.


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## Valkyrie (Jan 29, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> BUCKY is a troll I think. Or just retarded



I try to answer in case it comes up for some regular person in a future search. Nomsayin?


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## longworthb (Jan 29, 2013)

Bucky is a complete ass hat. I have never once seen a post from you that wasn't the dumbest shit I've ever heard. Ay go look at some of his previous posts. Man the fuck up and pin something. Your mangina is stinking up the place


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## CG (Jan 29, 2013)

I don't get it.  All I ever do is shoot test and rock crystal meth


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## SFW (Jan 29, 2013)

High dosed Tbol.


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## Standard Donkey (Jan 29, 2013)

Agentyes said:


> I would never intentionally build a stack that way. *I HAVE intentionally built stacks with very low dose test just around TRT level to compensate for the supression caused by the other anabolic.*  If you do that you can really run anything. Its not an exact science and theres a bit of guessing but using a low dose test as a base isn't going to cause you tons of sides or to bulk up.



would you please elaborate on this?


OP, all steroids can be run safely without testosterone as a base. However, you cant expect to keep gains if you dont make an effort to maintain them... so in your logic, all steroids will give you "air muscles".


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## SloppyJ (Jan 29, 2013)

Long runs of Deca without test are my favorite. You have to make sure to go over 1200mg/wk to not get any sides though.


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## keith1569 (Jan 29, 2013)

Lol slop!


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## heartofalion (Jan 29, 2013)

Sounds like you're better off with designer steroids, particularly ones that don't aromatize. Can't remember offhand which ones risk hair shedding, but look into epistane, hdrol, msten, etc. plenty of people take them without test. Look at the non-DHT based ones.


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## RockShawn (Jan 29, 2013)

Standard answer, NONE, however I really like sloppy's suggestion. I'd go with that.


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## jay_steel (Jan 29, 2013)

I know many physic guys that run HGH with either primo, var, or mast by it self. This is mostly for contest prep purposes.


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## juicespringsteen (Jan 29, 2013)

Ment


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## Standard Donkey (Jan 29, 2013)

SloppyJ said:


> Long runs of Deca without test are my favorite. You have to make sure to go over 1200mg/wk to not get any sides though.




just to be perfectly clear.. you aren't implying that long runs of deca with test _would _be safe.. right?


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## Mike Arnold (Jan 29, 2013)

BUCKY said:


> I'm not looking to bulk up 20 pounds higher. I do well with just an anavar and HGH cycle. I like the strength anavar gives me but as I already know it does not give much gains, if any. I'm not a fan of testosterone as it sheds hair. What steroid can I take along with anavar that will be ok to take without test as base and something that does not blow me up 20 pounds of "air muscles" (bulk that will go away in a few months if not maintained). Is Primobolan my best bet? I read it's also "safer" for an injectable steroid, but pricey. I've looked into Winstrol injectables but I read it's bad for the joints (not good if my favorite workout is deadlift!). Like I said anavar is my favorite steroid, gives me as much strength as when I was on Test E, but without the sides. I like anavar. I just need a little kick but not much. Is Primobolan what I'm looking for? The dosages I'm seeing floating around the net seems like it would require Test as base but not sure if this is true at lighter dose.



As several guys/girls here have stated already, ANY steroid can be run without testosterone, but after a while, you will begin to expeience the negative effects of its absence.  The male body requires testosterone to maintain all of its normal functions.  There is only ONE steroid which can completely replace testosterone from a physiological standpoint and that is Trestolone Ace (Ment), which another poster mentioned.  However, Ment can cause hair loss (and is rife with other side effects, although it is bad-ass for growth), so you might want to stay away from it.

Basically, you are looking for a steroid which does not result in outwardly noticable androgenic side effects and does not cause water retention, but which still builds appreciable muscle.  You mentioned you like Var, but are less than pleased with its muscle building ability.

There are not many steroids out there which possess the traits you are looking for, as most of the great mass & strength drugs cause androgenic side effects and/or sub-q water retention.  However, there are a few which meet this criteria.  SD ois by far the best.  It is a very weak androgen...on par with Anavar...and is extremely unlikely to cause any hair loss (bout as likely as Var).  It also results in a hard and dry appearance which is somewhat similar to Var, but the key difference lies in its ability to add extreme amounts of muscle mass & strength. This drug can usually be run alone without the user experiencing the effects of testosterone deprivation, as long as the cycle is kept short...about 4 weeks or less.

You could use primo, but it is going to provide mass gains similar to Anavar, so probbly not your best choice...unless a higher dosage is sued...then it can be decent for muscle gain, but it will cost a lot more than most drugs hen running a higher dosage.  If money is not an issue...and you want to run a normal length cycle which supplies impressive gains while adhering to the criteria you've mentioned, the following is a solid, although unconventional, option:


Weeks 1-4:  SD @ 10 mg, 2-3X per day.
Weeks 5-12:  Primobolan @ 250 mg EOD.
Weeks 5-12:  Test enth @ 25 mg EOD.
Weeks 9-12:  SD @ 10 mg, 2-3X per day.


The SD is the powrehouse of the cycle, but due its methylated nature, you cannot run it the entire 12 weeks.  In order to maximize the gains you will experience with this drug, while still providing ample off-time, you should split it up into two 4 week cycles, with 4 weeks to start the cycle and 4 weeks to finish.  Primo is dosed at 875 mg per week total for 8 weeks and will help provide some lean, dry gains throughout your SD off-time.  During the final 4 weeks of the cycle both are used together.  Test enth was selected over prop, as prop has a higher conversion rate to DHT than does enth (which means more potential hair loss)...and when running only 87.5 mg per week, hair loss will be a non-issue.  Prop is usually selected over enth fo those who are concerned with water retention, but again, because the dose is so low..and given the fact Primo displays anti-estrogenic properties on its own, the likelihood of experiencing water retention at this dose is pretty much an impossibility.  

Some may think this T dose is too low, but they should remember that the only reason you are using T at all is to maintain pohysiological function...not to make better gains.  They should also take into consideration the fact that many men naturally produce about 87.5 mg per week of Test per week.  I realize it is common for many guys to run 200 mg per week for TRT purposes, but that dose is actually much higher than what men normally produce, throwing their T reading significantly outside the upper range of normal before gradually dropping back down.  You will also notice that the Test enth does not come into the picture until the start of week 5.  The reason for this is simple.  Since it will take about 4 weeks of running SD alone before you experience the effects of  low tesosterone, there is no need to add it in right from the start.  By adding in it in right from the start, with natutal T levels still intact, you will experince an above normal levelsof Testosterone for the first few weeks.  In your case, since we are not using testosterone for mass gains anyway, but only for maintenance of T levels, it just makes more sense to add it in when it is actually needed.

Anyway, there are numerous different ways you could set up this cycle up...and multiple other compounds you could use, as well.  This is just one option, which will result in significant muscle gains, while minimizing the possibility of experiencing side effects you don't want.


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## BUCKY (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm surprised of no mention of Masteron. I was thinking about an Anavar and Masteron stack, maybe an Anavar or Primobolan stack, or all 3. Masteron does not aromatize so does Anavar, I think I like that. I like the description of Masteron being slightly less stronger than Primo, and non aromatizing. I was close to liking Winstrol but it's supposed to be harsh on the liver at high dosage so I might pass on it.


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## Standard Donkey (Jan 29, 2013)

BUCKY said:


> I'm surprised of no mention of Masteron. I was thinking about an Anavar and Masteron stack, maybe an Anavar or Primobolan stack, or all 3. Masteron does not aromatize so does Anavar, I think I like that. I like the description of Masteron being slightly less stronger than Primo, and non aromatizing. I was close to liking Winstrol but it's supposed to be harsh on the liver at high dosage so I might pass on it.




worried about hair-shedding with testosterone, but want to use masteron..


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## BUCKY (Jan 29, 2013)

my only oral will always be Anavar. Thanks for the recommendation of dbol. I don't think I want to gain "water muscle". I'll pass.



s2h said:


> dbol for one..


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## BUCKY (Jan 29, 2013)

test sheds hair stronger than masteron. can someone verify? Plus, like my original topic was that I want a steroid that will not blow me up 20 pounds higher of "air muscles". Test will do that, Masteron will not. I read Masteron is good to use when body fat is already low then you will see your veins pop out. I'm going for vascularity, not bulk. I think I got my answer when some of the people here said Test is not always required as base. I use anavar and HGH with no test. I just want to add something to it or replace HGH with another injectable (steroid) as HGH cost more and takes longer to use (6 months).



Standard Donkey said:


> worried about hair-shedding with testosterone, but want to use masteron..


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## jay_steel (Jan 29, 2013)

this last post proves a complete lack of knowledge... 

ok let me break some thing down for you... in order to hold your gains you need test period. Your test drops, your gains are gone. People that run no test to not put on water is for contest prep purposes. If you take 200mg of test c a week which will put you in the natural levels you will not blow up 20lbs. FUCK if test made you blow up 20lbs that easy I would no be running half the shit I am running in hopes to gain 8lbs. You can also increase bloat or water if your entrogen gets to high and your test to to low. The key is to get it to the point you want. I dont know about you but I am sitting at 7%bf right now no bloated at all with vains going through my stomach while on test..HOW THE HELL IS THAT POSSIBLE YOU ASK... I am taking low test enough to keep me normal... WOW rocket science... I know im smart right???

Stop tying to reinvent the wheel, your diet is probably shit which is the reason why you blow up. I think instead of using drugs to get to your goal you can easily get there with a diet.


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## dave 236 (Jan 29, 2013)

Wtf is air muscles?  

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## BUCKY (Jan 29, 2013)

I was using 500mg of Test E a week. Maybe half of that should have been my dose. So to hold on to my gains I'd have to be on Test for as long as I want to hold on to my gains?



jay_steel said:


> this last post proves a complete lack of knowledge...
> 
> ok let me break some thing down for you... in order to hold your gains you need test period. Your test drops, your gains are gone. People that run no test to not put on water is for contest prep purposes. If you take 200mg of test c a week which will put you in the natural levels you will not blow up 20lbs. FUCK if test made you blow up 20lbs that easy I would no be running half the shit I am running in hopes to gain 8lbs. You can also increase bloat or water if your entrogen gets to high and your test to to low. The key is to get it to the point you want. I dont know about you but I am sitting at 7%bf right now no bloated at all with vains going through my stomach while on test..HOW THE HELL IS THAT POSSIBLE YOU ASK... I am taking low test enough to keep me normal... WOW rocket science... I know im smart right???
> 
> Stop tying to reinvent the wheel, your diet is probably shit which is the reason why you blow up. I think instead of using drugs to get to your goal you can easily get there with a diet.


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## cactus-pits (Jan 29, 2013)

the view/response ratio on this thread is almost 1:1


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## BUCKY (Jan 30, 2013)

Agreed.



cactus-pits said:


> the view/response ratio on this thread is almost 1:1


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## Digitalash (Jan 30, 2013)

mast is a dht derivative and very androgenic so probably worsefor your hairline. run a moderate dose of test like 300mg a week and keep estro in check. Eat a clean diet and plenty of water and you won't bloat at all


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## s2h (Jan 30, 2013)

BUCKY said:


> my only oral will always be Anavar. Thanks for the recommendation of dbol. I don't think I want to gain "water muscle". I'll pass.



Low dose dbol runs at 20mg ed are not only effective...but come with min sides and water retention...


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## theCaptn' (Jan 30, 2013)

s2h said:


> Low dose dbol runs at 20mg ed are not only effective...but come with min sides and water retention...



You could probably run 10mg dbol for 6 months with no issues


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## dave 236 (Jan 30, 2013)

Colonic cheque drops. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## robono (Jan 30, 2013)

SloppyJ said:


> Long runs of Deca without test are my favorite. You have to make sure to go over 1200mg/wk to not get any sides though.


That's some funny shit right there!!!


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## BUCKY (Jan 30, 2013)

Not sure about this. Maybe if it's Anavar it's possible.



theCaptn' said:


> You could probably run 10mg dbol for 6 months with no issues


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## BUCKY (Jan 30, 2013)

From what I read when using Masteron with Testosterone, you won't need an OCT (Anastrozole) as the Masteron acts to fight gynecomastia? Is 400mg a week of Masteron a good dose (every other day so 100mg EOD). Just wondering how many weeks can I use Masteron for? That dose is for mass gainers. I'm no mass gainer so I'd guess 50mg every other day would be a good dose? I'm not sure I believe Masteron is more androgenic than Testosterone. I read there's synergistic effect when using Masteron with Winstrol, along with Anavar (or other cutting steroids). Is it ok to you use all 3 DHT derivative steroid in a cycle?



Digitalash said:


> mast is a dht derivative and very androgenic so probably worsefor your hairline. run a moderate dose of test like 300mg a week and keep estro in check. Eat a clean diet and plenty of water and you won't bloat at all


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## jay_steel (Jan 30, 2013)

i would only run mast from 500-700 mg a week any thing under you will see little results and any thing more will not yield a great difference.


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## jay_steel (Jan 30, 2013)

BUCKY said:


> I was using 500mg of Test E a week. Maybe half of that should have been my dose. So to hold on to my gains I'd have to be on Test for as long as I want to hold on to my gains?



when you take gear your test levels will shut down. Your test levels are what helps EVERY thing in your body to synthesize protein, gain muscle, keep muscle, ect. with out the test its all most a waste of money and in my opionon more taxing on your body. I will run no test if I am not dry enough for a contest only. If i Feel I am holding not enough water I will drop my test raise letro and blast letro. This is for contest prep only not for average joe wanting to get lean. After the show I will go back to 300mg of test a week and cruise or I may actually PCT for the first time in over a year. Still undecided.


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## Mike Arnold (Jan 30, 2013)

BUCKY said:


> I'm surprised of no mention of Masteron. I was thinking about an Anavar and Masteron stack, maybe an Anavar or Primobolan stack, or all 3. Masteron does not aromatize so does Anavar, I think I like that. I like the description of Masteron being slightly less stronger than Primo, and non aromatizing. I was close to liking Winstrol but it's supposed to be harsh on the liver at high dosage so I might pass on it.



The reason no one brought up Masteron is because it is often horrendous on the hairline...worse than testosterone for a lot of guys.  Like I said in the above post, there are NOT many steroids which meet the criteria you've selected.  You basically said you don't want to lose any hair, don't want to hold water, yet wan't to build a good amount of muscle tissue.  How many steroids do you think there are that meet those qualifications?  The answer is VERY FEW!  That is why I selected Primo and SD.  SD will meet your guidelines while building a lot of mass.  Primo also mets those guidelines, but does not build much mass.  However, it can be run for a much longer period of time, making for a more normal length cycle.


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## Mike Arnold (Jan 30, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> You could probably run 10mg dbol for 6 months with no issues




You absolutely could.  You could run 20 mg for a year and your liver enzymes wouldn't be too bad at all. your cholesterol probably wouldn't be too great, but that could be managed through other means.


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## Mike Arnold (Jan 30, 2013)

BUCKY said:


> From what I read when using Masteron with Testosterone, you won't need an OCT (Anastrozole) as the Masteron acts to fight gynecomastia? Is 400mg a week of Masteron a good dose (every other day so 100mg EOD). Just wondering how many weeks can I use Masteron for? That dose is for mass gainers. I'm no mass gainer so I'd guess 50mg every other day would be a good dose? I'm not sure I believe Masteron is more androgenic than Testosterone. I read there's synergistic effect when using Masteron with Winstrol, along with Anavar (or other cutting steroids). Is it ok to you use all 3 DHT derivative steroid in a cycle?



Test & Mast is a good cycle, but if you're prone to hair loss, that cycle is almost certain to significantly speed up the process.  Now, if you don't really care about hair loss (which means every person who tried to help you in this thread wasted their time), then there are lots of different options.


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## BUCKY (Jan 31, 2013)

For how many weeks? 8-12? From what I read 400mg a week of Masteron is fine (split every other day). Anything over 500mg does not have much difference so it would be a waste.



jay_steel said:


> i would only run mast from 500-700 mg a week any thing under you will see little results and any thing more will not yield a great difference.


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## BUCKY (Jan 31, 2013)

Ok I think this makes sense. I get what you;re saying. When I use gear like Masteron it shuts down my natural test so therefore I'd have to supplement it with Testosterone injections. Would replacing it to the natural level be fine? I read it was 200mg of Test is what the male body produces or something like that. I was using Test E, 500mg a week, it was kinda bad on the hairline. So if I run Test with Masteron I won't have to worry about OCT or PCT, correct? I read masteron functions to keep gynecomastia in check. The cycle I'm trying to run is NOT a bulking cycle. Otherwise everyone knows to go for Tren. Would this cycle work:

Test: 200mg weekly (Should I stick with Test E? It's the only Test I have ever tried)
Masteron: 50-100mg every other day (I might go 50mg to try it out first before I'd step up to 100mg)
Anavar: 50mg daily

6-8 week cycle, or 8-12 week cycle? No OCT/PCT? 

Just curious if low dose Test will not give any sides? I'm assuming it won't as it is simply "replacing" my natural production amount of Test that's being shut down by "gear". 



jay_steel said:


> when you take gear your test levels will shut down. Your test levels are what helps EVERY thing in your body to synthesize protein, gain muscle, keep muscle, ect. with out the test its all most a waste of money and in my opionon more taxing on your body. I will run no test if I am not dry enough for a contest only. If i Feel I am holding not enough water I will drop my test raise letro and blast letro. This is for contest prep only not for average joe wanting to get lean. After the show I will go back to 300mg of test a week and cruise or I may actually PCT for the first time in over a year. Still undecided.


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## theCaptn' (Jan 31, 2013)

^^^ this dickhead is trolling. 

He's been around long enough to know the basics of cycle etcetc

I've got a good mind to ban him


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## BUCKY (Jan 31, 2013)

well what is SD? What is the catch with SD? If it's to build mass without the sides I was worried about, then how come it's not as out there?

Primo is another of my options as well. Thanks for its mention.



Mike Arnold said:


> The reason no one brought up Masteron is because it is often horrendous on the hairline...worse than testosterone for a lot of guys.  Like I said in the above post, there are NOT many steroids which meet the criteria you've selected.  You basically said you don't want to lose any hair, don't want to hold water, yet wan't to build a good amount of muscle tissue.  How many steroids do you think there are that meet those qualifications?  The answer is VERY FEW!  That is why I selected Primo and SD.  SD will meet your guidelines while building a lot of mass.  Primo also mets those guidelines, but does not build much mass.  However, it can be run for a much longer period of time, making for a more normal length cycle.


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## Mike Arnold (Feb 1, 2013)

Bucky, I have noticed that evey time you ask someone a question and they give you an answer, you disagree with them and make a comment which opposes their answer.  I also noticed that you said you wanted to avoid certain side effects, but then when people tell you the compounds you're contemplating frequently cause those side effects, you ignore them and act as if you want to run them anyway.  You also keep asking questions which have already been answered in this thread.  For example, you just asked how much test you would need to take to maintain natural T levels, yet that question was specifically answered already.  Lastly, on a few occasions, when someone responds to your question, you challenge their answer.     

I agree with the Captn', you are either trolling and intentionally wasting people's time...or you are about as smart as an acorn.  Cut it the fuck out now...as there are other people here who actually want help...and personally, I don't have time to waste helping some jackass who either can't/won't read...or just wants to argue.


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## Mike Arnold (Feb 1, 2013)

BUCKY said:


> well what is SD? What is the catch with SD? If it's to build mass without the sides I was worried about, then how come it's not as out there?
> 
> Primo is another of my options as well. Thanks for its mention.



Not out there?  What the fuck are you talking about?


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