# Insulin pre contest



## Swolen22 (Mar 19, 2014)

Will post workout insulin hinder fat loss while dieting for a show?




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## Mike Arnold (Mar 20, 2014)

Insulin will always hinder fat loss when present, without exception.  Circulating insulin literally closes up the fat cell, preventing it from releasing stored fat for use as energy.  However, the question is not whether a single post-workout injection will inhibit fat loss, but rather, if the degree of inhibition is sufficient to completely undermine one's efforts during those times when insulin is not present.  

I cannot provide a yes or no answer.  The answer will depend on the type of insulin used, the amount of insulin used, how far along you are in your diet, whether you are ahead or behind schedule, and the effectiveness of your diet & PED program for initiating fat loss.  For example, injecting 50 IU of Lantus at 3 weeks out will most certainly have a significant negative effect on your ability to drop that last 1-2% of bodyfat.  On the other hand, if you are using Humalog at 12 weeks out, you should have no problem losing bodyfat easily.  

Humalog is ideal when dieting, as it only stays active for 2-3 hours and when used post-workout, it is more likely to facilitate recovery than impair fat loss.  No, you likely won't lose any bodyfat over those 2-3 hours of activity, but you will still have 21-22 hours of the day left to lose bodyfat.  So, in this case, the benefits outweigh the negatives.  You may be able to continue using Humalog post-workout all the way until the contest, but it will depend on how well you are progressing in your diet.  If you are behind, you will probably want to eliminate it...and if you are on track, you will probably want to keep it in, as it will help maintain fullness and muscle tissue during the more physically stressfull parts of the diet.

I never recommend using long-acting insulins when dieting, at any time.  Humulin R can be used for the first half of the diet if necessary, but Humalog is still preferable. However, most people can get away with using humulin post-workout for at least the first half of their diet...and sometimes longer, as long as they are still on track.


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## heckler7 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mike Arnold said:


> *Circulating insulin literally closes up the fat cell*.


 where did you read this I never came across that anywhere, I'm not argueing with you Mike, I wanna know if its real.

what I know is circulating insulin that doesnt get used by muscles ends up as fatty tissue


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## SoCalSwole (Mar 20, 2014)

I've seen protocols that call for what would seem like low carb intake when we are talking about slin. The idea is to activate the ketogenic response to burn fat. Seems pretty dangerous to me but I know of guys that have tried it.


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## Mike Arnold (Mar 20, 2014)

heckler7 said:


> where did you read this I never came across that anywhere, I'm not argueing with you Mike, I wanna know if its real.
> 
> what I know is circulating insulin that doesnt get used by muscles ends up as fatty tissue



You can find this info everywhere. Insulin inbibits lypolysis (the release of stored fat). This is why diets lower in carbs tend to produce a greater degree of fat loss--because insulin levels remain lower. This is not to say you can't eat carbs when dieting, because obviously thats not true, but the higher one's insulin level, the more dificult fat loss becomes because the body will tend to draw from circulating glucose for energy, rather than stored bodyfat. 

Also, insulin never ends up as "bodyfat"....and it ALWAYS gets used. If too much insulin is present, BG levels will continue to fall, even to the point of death if the amount of insulin is excessive. In addition, insulin can't become bodyfat, as it is a hormone and has no caloric value.


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## heckler7 (Mar 21, 2014)

Mike Arnold said:


> You can find this info everywhere. Insulin inbibits lypolysis (the release of stored fat). This is why diets lower in carbs tend to produce a greater degree of fat loss--because insulin levels remain lower. This is not to say you can't eat carbs when dieting, because obviously thats not true, but the higher one's insulin level, the more dificult fat loss becomes because the body will tend to draw from circulating glucose for energy, rather than stored bodyfat.
> 
> Also, insulin never ends up as "bodyfat"....and it ALWAYS gets used. If too much insulin is present, BG levels will continue to fall, even to the point of death if the amount of insulin is excessive. In addition, insulin can't become bodyfat, as it is a hormone and has no caloric value.


 yes I have read this,I figured it was just how you worded it, I thought there was something new I missed. thanx for the info Mike


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## Swolen22 (Mar 21, 2014)

Is the concept of consuming carbs around the weight training workout related to insulin use only?

Or can glycogen storage and replenishment be separate from insulin levels?

I have always consumed carbs pre intra and post workout from karbolyn along with caffeine aminos and creatine. Is consuming the karbolyn pointless without insulin? 

I have never used insulin but am wanting to be fully educated for possible future use.

Is using insulin a staple among the top pros now? Or do some not use it?



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## Swolen22 (Mar 21, 2014)

*EDIT FROM LAST POST*

Is the concept of consuming carbs around the weight training workout related to insulin only?

Or can glycogen storage and replenishment be separate from insulin levels?

This has been my workout supplementation to use my bodies natural insulin 

Pre workout -
50g karbolyn caffeine aminos and creatine

Intra - 
25g karbolyn with bcaas

Post wo - 
50g karbolyn 25g dextrose creatine and aminos

I thought the whole point of dieting was to keep insulin and blood sugar low aside from a post workout for an insulin spike to help recovery. 

I have been taking dextrose with karbolyn post workout for a natural insulin spike. (I thought dextrose was a high GI and Karbolyn was a low GI but fast digesting carb)

I am learning now that karbolyn has a similar glycemic index to dextrose so I am raising insulin pre workout too??

I'm confused

I have never used insulin but am wanting to be fully educated for possible future use.

Is using insulin a staple among the top pros now? Or do some not use it?



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## SoCalSwole (Mar 21, 2014)

Is the concept of consuming carbs around the weight training workout related to insulin use only? said swolen22....

To answer your question directly, no. Unless you have diabetes your body will naturally produce insulin evertime glucose is introduced into the blood stream aka, everytime you eat sugar. Guys who use an insulin protocol are basically turbocharging this natural response by adding even more insulin which forces even more nutrients and glucose into your muscles. More nutrients and sugar glucose in the muscle equals bigger pumps, faster recovery, stretches muscle fascia. 

You can do the same thing to a lesser degree by preloading up on sugar before a workout, drinking amino acid drink with sugar while working out and then replenishing after with a post workout drink with sugar. Naturally without extra insulin injected you will not be able to absorb nearly as much as someone who takes slin. 

Slin users need to ingest 100 grams of glucose every hour for 4 hours (depending on dose) after injecting or they run the run the risk of falling into a insulin induced coma from low Blood sugar. They are able to use all of that sugar to reload and engorge muscles. Naturally you would never be able to use that much sugar and if you tried it you would without a doubt add body fat at an incredibly alarming rate. Because your body naturally wont secrete the amount of insulin to use that much glucose instead it would remain in your blood stream and then the body would start metabolizing it into fat and storing it away.

Many use it, but be warned there is no steroid preparation out there that can kill you in a single dose. Insulin on the other hand if you don't know what your doing can. It is by far the most dangerous thing Bodybuilders can use. Educate yourself before attempting. I know just enough to hurt myself and I have never done it. But I do hear, and have seen it is the path to enormity.

So that's the long winded answer to your question.


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## SoCalSwole (Mar 21, 2014)

One more thing, you mentioned confusion based on the idea that so many preach and advocate a low carb diet to control insulin sensitivity in the body. For all normal people this is true. Once you pack on some serious lean mass you start to notice that you are able to injest what before would seem like a crazy amount of carbs and not gain an ounce of BF to a point of course. I myself struggled with gains even while on gear because I was once very overweight and the idea of eating carbs at every meal I couldnt wrap my brain around. It seemed the opposite to everything I've done to that point. I am now at 220 and 10% bf at 5'9". If I ate what I used to eat when I was 185 and 10% I would shrink pretty quickly. So its all relative.

In other words what would have seemed like a bulking diet when I was 185 is now my maintenance diet. all the macros go up Protein, carbs and fat. Bigger engine needs more fuel. I still will lower carb intake when i am cutting but I will never be able to go carb free and maintain my current size. So hopefully that sums it up a little better.


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## Mike Arnold (Mar 23, 2014)

Swolen22 said:


> Is the concept of consuming carbs around the weight training workout related to insulin use only?
> 
> Or can glycogen storage and replenishment be separate from insulin levels?
> 
> ...



No, it's not pointless.  Your body still makes its own insulin.  Using exo insulin allows you to transport more nutruients into the muscles than your body normally could on its own.


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## malk (Mar 23, 2014)

Mike,,do insulin injections replace your own natural spike,and how much in terms
Of iu would your own body produce with a good size carb meal? 
Im off slin atm and the recovery from workouts is very noticable.


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## Mike Arnold (Mar 23, 2014)

SoCalSwole said:


> Is the concept of consuming carbs around the weight training workout related to insulin use only? said swolen22....
> 
> To answer your question directly, no. Unless you have diabetes your body will naturally produce insulin evertime glucose is introduced into the blood stream aka, everytime you eat sugar. Guys who use an insulin protocol are basically turbocharging this natural response by adding even more insulin which forces even more nutrients and glucose into your muscles. More nutrients and sugar glucose in the muscle equals bigger pumps, faster recovery, stretches muscle fascia.
> 
> ...



See bold above.  Thanks for your contribtion, but I wanted to clear one little thing up.  You say slin users need to consume 100 grams of carbs every hour for 4 hours straight or they run the risk of falling into a coma.  However, there are several variables which can effect the number of carbs someone needs to consume, as well as the timing.  Dose (as you mentioned) is a big one, as is the type of insulin used.  Insulin sensitivity is another, and so is the type of food consumed, as not all foods release glucose into the bloodstream at the same rate.

Obviously, if somoene is using Lantus at 20 IU, their carb intake and timing is going to vary considerably compared to someone using an equal dose of Humalog, or even from someone usiong Humulin R.  insulin type can completely change not only the amount of carbs one needs to eat, but the timing of those carbs.  No one would EVER need to consume 100 grams of carbs every 4 hours when injecting 20 IU of Lantus.  In fact, such a person would not even need to pay attention to their carb intake because Lantus releases so slowly that even in the complete absence of carbs, the body could easily deal with it through glucogensis alone.

Even when using Humulin, which has roughly a 4-5 hour release rate, very few people are injecting a dose large enough to necessitate 400 grams of carbs over a 4 hour period.  In reality, most people only "need" about 5-6 grams of carbs per IU, while those with great insulin sensitivity may require as much as 10 grams (not common) and those with very poor sensitivity may only require 3-4.  Even in someone who needs a full 10 grams of carbs per IU, they would need to inject roughly 40 IU of Humulin in a single inject in order to require 400 grams of carbs over a 4 hour period.  Your average board member is NOT injecting 40 IU of Humulin at once.  Most guys on the boards use 20 IU or less when used once daily around workouts...and most of these guys can get away with 120-150 grams of carbs at that dose.

In addition, food timing can also vary tremendously, depending on what is being eaten.  If someone is eating nothing ut dextrose, maybe they would need to eat some carbs every 60-90 minutes when using Humulin, but not many people these days use dextrose...because it sucks.  Vetter results are achieved with high mollecular weight, complex carbs, which exit the stomach very rapidly, but still take hours to fully digest and release all their glucose into the system.  With these type of carbs, eating every hour is completely unecessary, assuming the person is consuming enough carbs at one time to keep their BG up.   If someone is using the typical high mollecular weight carb & whey protein combination, 2 shakes over a 4 hour period is generally more than suffciient.  

When slower digesting foods are eaten, such as whole foods meals (ex. steak, potatoes, vegetables), many people can get away with eating only once, as plenty of whole food meals can take 4+ hours to be fully assimilated.  Again, as long as enough overall carbs are consumed in that meal, then the person will keep their blood sugar up just fine over that 4 hour period.  The point is that there is no single schedule one must follow when using insulin.  Saying someone needs to eat 100 grams of carbs every 4 hours without specificing the type of insulin used, the amount of insulin used, the amount of food eaten, the type of food eaten--all while ignoring potential variances in insulin sensitivity--is a severely mis-leading statement. Quite a few guys out there, if they added an extra 400 grams if sugar to their diet, would turn into veritable fat asses in no time.

Aside from all that, we also need to take glucogensis into consideration.  The fact is that very few people are using a dose of insulin capable of killing them.  One would need to use a pretty large dose of insulin and not eat anything to stand any chance of dying.  Anyone could easily inject 10 IU of humlin, not eat a thing, and they would never die...ever.  Actually, most guys could inject several times that amount without eating and still not go into a coma, let alone die.  This is because the body has its own self-protection mechanism it can call upon during times like this, called glucogenesis.  If blood sugar ever gets too low--to the point where the body starst to get concerned--the liver will automatically release stored glucose into the bloodstream and it will continue to do so until BG is either normalized or all the stoed glucose is used up.  The liver's glucose stores are pretty extensive, so someone would really have to over-do it in order to die.   

Now, I am not trying to undermine the importance of carb intake when using insulin, nor am I trying to say that insulin is not potentially dangerous because it certainly can be.  However, much of what is posted online regarding insulin use in BB'ing is 100% bullshit...and this bullshit gets read by 1,000's of people, who subsequently pass it on to 1,000's of others.  I have read some absolutely ridiculous statements regarding insulin.  I have heard some people advise others to start as low as 1-2 IU, while telling them that even 5 IU could potentially kill them if their carb intake isn't tight (LOL).  In almost every instance, the people spouting off inaccurate information are amost always the ones who have never used insulin before.  In fact, I have yet to run into a single person who hasn't use insulin, that has a firm grasp of how it should be applied in a BB'r.  Often, thse people know all kinds of book facts about insulin, but in terms of real-world application, they don't have a fucking clue.  Unless someone has personal experience with insulin in their own life, their perception of the drug will be skewed, at least to some degree.

Pleae don't take offebnse to this post, as it was not meant to offend you, nor was my intentoon to call you out in public.  Much of what you said is correct, but I know there are plenty of guys reading this who might end up thinking they need to eat 400 gramns of sugar after an inject of insulin, even if all they used wa 5 IU.


I am going to switch topics for a minute and conclude with how to determine carb intake when using insulin.  Of course, it is always important to make sure that enough carbs are eaten to cover the dose of slin injected.  This is one of the most basic rules that everyone should understand.  However, off-season BB'es will almost always require much more carbs during the workout window, than what their insulin dose necessitates.  For example, the typical 200 lb off-season BB'r will be consuming between 400-600 grams of carbs per day.  At least 1/3rd to 1/2 of those carbs should be consumed during the workout window, which is that period of time from right before the workout until about 2 hours afterward.  For most people, that is about 3-4 hours.  Using the above ratios, your normal 200 lb guy should be eating between 200-300 grams of carbs during that window.  This is so the BB'r can recover & grow optimally, which is the goal.  That amount of carbs, even when eating 10 grams of carbs per IU, is enough to cover 20-30 IU of Humulin R.   

However, a lot of insulin users end up consuming far too few carbs during this window because they have been taught that they should not consume more carbs than it takes to cover their slin dose.  The problem with this is that most people don't use a dose of slin which requires the to eat anywhere near enough carbs to optmally recover & grow.  For example, if a 225 lbs BB'r using 5 IU of insulin thinks he should only be consuming 50 grams of carbs, he will never recover & grow optimally, as a 225 lb off-season BB'r will require way more carbs than during the workout window.  The main reason guys will under-eat when using insulin is because they tink they will get fat if they eat more carbs than what is neededto cover the insulin, but this is not true.  Workout-based insulin will only make someone fat when they are eating too many calories.  if they are consuming only what their body needs to recover & grow optimally, they will simply get bigger...NOT fatter.

When putting together an insulin plan, one shoud not base their carb intake around their insulin use.  Rather, they should first determine their ideal carb intake and then select their insulin dose based on that.


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## Mike Arnold (Mar 23, 2014)

malk said:


> Mike,,do insulin injections replace your own natural spike,and how much in terms
> Of iu would your own body produce with a good size carb meal?
> Im off slin atm and the recovery from workouts is very noticable.



Your body will only release as much insulin as it needs, so if you inject a lot of insulin, your pancrease won't need to produce very much.  

It is impossible to say how many IU's the body would produce after a "good size" carb meal.  First off, the interpreptation of "good size" can vary sgnificantly, depending on the person.  Secondly, not everyone possesses the same degree of insulin sensitivity, which can drastically effect the amount of insulin needed to cover a certain amont of carbs.


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## Swolen22 (Mar 23, 2014)

What percentage of the year does the average bodybuilding insulin user take insulin? Year round? 


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## malk (Mar 23, 2014)

Mike Arnold said:


> Your body will only release as much insulin as it needs, so if you inject a lot of insulin, your pancrease won't need to produce very much.
> 
> It is impossible to say how many IU's the body would produce after a "good size" carb meal.  First off, the interpreptation of "good size" can vary sgnificantly, depending on the person.  Secondly, not everyone possesses the same degree of insulin sensitivity, which can drastically effect the amount of insulin needed to cover a certain amont of carbs.



Great info and replys mike,,cheers....your certainly right about not eating enough carbs around
Workouts based on my own experiences,and will up my food next time for sure.i think i
Was being to conservative worying about the fat gain.i might invest in some better carb
Powders and whey too...


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## Swolen22 (Mar 25, 2014)

If you take gh with insulin what is the best timing of taking each during the day? 

You need food to take insulin but an empty stomach to take gh correct? 

I guess this means you cannot take gh around the workout if you're consuming carbs


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## vassille (Mar 26, 2014)

heckler7 said:


> where did you read this I never came across that anywhere, I'm not argueing with you Mike, I wanna know if its real.
> 
> what I know is circulating insulin that doesnt get used by muscles ends up as fatty tissue



To make this short there is insulin and glucagon. None create or use fat what they do is quite different. Insulin acts like a "key" on muscle and fat cells receptors. If there is an excess of glucose in the body not used, the same insulin which opens the muscle receptors also opens the fat cell receptors to store glucose as fat.  
Glucagon is the antagonist of insulin. When insulin is low glucagon is high and it stimulates fat cells among other functions to release fat for energy production or glycogen from the liver or a combo of both depending on the energy needs. 
Insulin and glucagon work in conjunction with each other keeping a nice balance. 
What ppl do not sometimes know, pancreas produces insulin, the liver produces glucagon. So if the liver gets bugged down and glucagon is diminished/or enhanced this balanced is sometimes compromised, impeding/or increasing fat loss and proper glucose balance.


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