# My first ever cycle -Epistane!! Feedback Pls!



## garyggiraffe (Nov 3, 2008)

Hey everyone, so I have been reading up on this for months now and decided to begin my first ever AAS cycle.  I'm going to go with Epistane from IBE, as people seem to be getting great results from it.  

I recently finished a bulk and I'm currently at about 187lbs and planning to cut back to 180 before I begin the cycle.  I hope to gain 5-10lbs of lean mass while hopefully losing around 5 lbs of fat in the process.  Hopefully I'll be a rock hard 185-190 at the end of this thing.  

I wanted a little feedback and advice on my dosing, support supps and PCT.  This is my current plan:







The reason I'm only doing the Activate for 2 weeks is b/c I only have 2 weeks left in my bottle and don't want to shell out any more cash.  Most say cortisol doesn't become a problem til week 3 of PCT, so thats when I start the Lean Xtreme.  I'll probably continue to take it til I run out.

I get so much conflicting advice on this, but my biggest concern is how to does the Tamoxifen Citrate dosing look?  A couple people suggest a 40/40/20/20, but most think this is overkill for Epistane.  Also, does the taper down on the PCS (AI Post Cycle Support) look good?

Thanks in advance for the help!


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## garyggiraffe (Nov 3, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> I don't even know where to start.  That cycle sucks.  Get some test and come back when you're ready.



Test is illegal and I wouldn't even know where to look to get it.  Not to mention having syringes and vials in my house is not really somewhere I'm willing to go right now.  It's just not worth the risk.  Thanks for the advice tho.


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Nov 3, 2008)

garyggiraffe said:


> Test is illegal and I wouldn't even know where to look to get it.  Not to mention having syringes and vials in my house is not really somewhere I'm willing to go right now.  It's just not worth the risk.  Thanks for the advice tho.



Dude read the rules, POST YOUR STATS! No one will help you unless you post your stats


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## TexanTA1996 (Nov 3, 2008)

garyggiraffe said:


> Test is illegal and I wouldn't even know where to look to get it.  Not to mention having syringes and vials in my house is not really somewhere I'm willing to go right now.  It's just not worth the risk.  Thanks for the advice tho.



Well then, your post is in the wrong forum.  Move it to the supplement section.

Just so you're aware, losing fat while gaining a substantial amount of muscle is very, very difficult-even with great genetics and real anabolic steroids such as testosterone, and extremely potent things such as clen and other substances used to burn fat.

If you think you're going to use an over the counter supplement and put on 10lbs of muscle while dropping 5lbs of fat, that's probably an unrealistic goal for 90% of users.  I respect your decision of not wanting to use something illegal, but you should know what you're getting yourself into.

For example, if you were to run test for your first cycle-you could expect to put on about 25lbs over the course of 2.5 months.  Now, you're going to put on about 8-10lbs of that in the first 10-12 days, water weight.  Factor in a few pounds of fat, and you'd be lucky to net 15lbs of actual muscle during that cycle.  In comparison, see how unrealistic your goal of losing 5lbs of fat while gaining 10lbs of muscle on some over the counter supplement becomes?

Granted, there are some exceptions-but if you want the kind of results you're asking for, it isn't gonna come from a $25 bottle of pills from a supplement store.


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## ZECH (Nov 3, 2008)

Cycle looks good and thought out well. You're cycle support and pcs looks good. Epi will give good gains if you eat well and take in some calories during cycle. 10 lbs is common with logs I've seen.


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## TexanTA1996 (Nov 3, 2008)

dg806 said:


> Cycle looks good and thought out well. You're cycle support and pcs looks good. Epi will give good gains if you eat well and take in some calories during cycle. 10 lbs is common with logs I've seen.



Considering he's using the product for 10 weeks, I'd certainly hope he'd be able to put on 10lbs, lol.  Was this a serious comment, or were you joking?


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## tucker01 (Nov 3, 2008)

where is ten weeks?


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## HHHTheGame (Nov 3, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Considering he's using the product for 10 weeks, I'd certainly hope he'd be able to put on 10lbs, lol.



Four weeks


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## TexanTA1996 (Nov 3, 2008)

HHHTheGame said:


> Four weeks



These products take time to build up/leave the system.  He's going to be on this drug for considerably longer than 4 weeks-it will still be in his system during much of pct.

Check the supplement section.  There's a guy over there that's been on this junk for over a month and put on a whopping 5lbs.


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## TexanTA1996 (Nov 3, 2008)

I would also check bb.com and read through the 90 page thread there on epistane.  Common sides are loss of libido, gyno, loss of energy, back pumps, muscle cramps, headaches, joint pain, and potential liver damager- all for a net gain of less than 10lbs from what most people are posting-half of which is water.

Here's my take on this junk.  Some guy decides he wants to use a product like this, so he starts reading about it.  He pretty much ignores every intelligent, well thought out post, and focuses on the guy who was 6'0, 145lbs (which he never mentioned) when he started his epistane cycle, and started eating 4,000 calories a day and puts on 15lbs in 4 weeks-as a result of his drastic increase in calories.  Said guy automatically contributes this weight gain to the supplement, when in fact it was a result of a person relatively new to lifting focusing on their diet and training more than they ever have.  Therefore, this guy goes out and buys the product.

I've yet to read about one experienced lifter who has used a product like this and experienced great results that would make it worth the side effects.  If you beg to differ, see the thread in the supp section about the guy who was 195lbs before he started, and only gained 5lbs over the course of 4 weeks.

These products such as epistane are extremely liver toxic.  

*I'm sorry, but if you're not ready to shoot yourself in the ass with a needle, you shouldn't be using steroids.  Either man up and learn how to inject the steroids which are the SAFEST and produce the greatest results, or forget about it.*


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## garyggiraffe (Nov 3, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Well then, your post is in the wrong forum.  Move it to the supplement section.
> 
> Just so you're aware, losing fat while gaining a substantial amount of muscle is very, very difficult-even with great genetics and real anabolic steroids such as testosterone, and extremely potent things such as clen and other substances used to burn fat.
> 
> ...



Dude, I'm sorry but your posts are entirely unhelpful and just exude an air of dbaggery.  Epistane IS a steroid, regardless of the fact that it's OTC, and  therefor this thread fully belongs in this section of the forum.  If you aren't going to be helpful, then don't post.  It's not like I'm some 17 year old schmuck who found a bottle of this stuff at GNC and is going to run it solo for 3 months with no support supps or PCT.  As you can tell from my cycle layout, I've researched this for many many hours and know what I'm doing.  I simply came here to get more opinions on how I should dose certain things.

And I've seen many many epistane logs where guys have gained 10lbs while decreasing BF%.  Epistane is the real deal, it works.  It's not water weight, Epi is extremely dry.  Clearly you're the one who hasn't done enough research.


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## garyggiraffe (Nov 3, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Considering he's using the product for 10 weeks, I'd certainly hope he'd be able to put on 10lbs, lol.  Was this a serious comment, or were you joking?



I'm dosing it for 4 weeks dude.  The first 2 weeks I'm preloading my support supps and the last 4 weeks are PCT.  You may want to read before you post.


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## garyggiraffe (Nov 3, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> I would also check bb.com and read through the 90 page thread there on epistane.  Common sides are loss of libido, gyno, loss of energy, back pumps, muscle cramps, headaches, joint pain, and potential liver damager- all for a net gain of less than 10lbs from what most people are posting-half of which is water.
> 
> Here's my take on this junk.  Some guy decides he wants to use a product like this, so he starts reading about it.  He pretty much ignores every intelligent, well thought out post, and focuses on the guy who was 6'0, 145lbs (which he never mentioned) when he started his epistane cycle, and started eating 4,000 calories a day and puts on 15lbs in 4 weeks-as a result of his drastic increase in calories.  Said guy automatically contributes this weight gain to the supplement, when in fact it was a result of a person relatively new to lifting focusing on their diet and training more than they ever have.  Therefore, this guy goes out and buys the product.
> 
> ...



I've read that thread.  I've also read many logs with very experienced bodybuilders who have taken AAS in the past and have put on 10-15 lbs in an Epi cycle.  The guy who only put on 5 lbs either doesn't respond well to this particular steroid (everyone's different) or he probably wasn't eating right.

And again, I'm aware that injectables are the most researched and safe.  HOWEVER, they're illegal and that's a serious factor for alot of people.  Not to mention there are issues with sterility and purity of the substance.  If was prescribed some Test by my doctor and was positive it was the real stuff with no possibility of legal rammifications, I would certainly go that route.  However, that's not going to happen, I don't have any idea where to get illegal steroids from, and if I did I'm not sure I would trust the seller.  Dealing on the black market is never "safe."


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## garyggiraffe (Nov 3, 2008)

chronicelite said:


> Dude read the rules, POST YOUR STATS! No one will help you unless you post your stats



Sorry man, I read the rules and didn't see anything about that.  I'm 21, 6'1'' and 187 lbs, about 12% BF.


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## TexanTA1996 (Nov 3, 2008)

garyggiraffe said:


> Epistane IS a steroid
> 
> Epistane is the real deal, it works.  It's not water weight, Epi is extremely dry.  Clearly you're the one who hasn't done enough research.



If you think you're going to run an oral steroid and not have any water retention, you're clueless.

I'm well aware of what the product is.  I've spent the last 2 hours reading off and on, a 90 page thread about the product-and I can guarantee you I have more experience with anabolics than you do.  I'm sure you're experienced enough to brew several compounds yourself, right?

You do what every other moron does.  You ignore any post that isn't exactly what you want to hear.  I'm telling you this, that shit is liver toxic, and it isn't worth the money nor the side effects for the minimal gains you're going to get.


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## snoops (Nov 3, 2008)

I think this is getting way off topic of what this guy started this thread for, but I would somewhat agree with Texan.  It amazes me sometimes how quick people are to take these new pro-hormones (or whatever you want to call the legal steroids).  I personally could never imagine taking an unknown substance, by an unknown and unregulated company, that is known to be liver toxic.  My health is worth more than the 5lbs I might be able to get from epistane, havoc, testanate or any of the other crap thats out.  Again, very off topic but just my two cents.


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## garyggiraffe (Nov 3, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> If you think you're going to run an oral steroid and not have any water retention, you're clueless.
> 
> I'm well aware of what the product is.  I've spent the last 2 hours reading off and on, a 90 page thread about the product-and I can guarantee you I have more experience with anabolics than you do.  I'm sure you're experienced enough to brew several compounds yourself, right?
> 
> You do what every other moron does.  You ignore any post that isn't exactly what you want to hear.  I'm telling you this, that shit is liver toxic, and it isn't worth the money nor the side effects for the minimal gains you're going to get.



You've spent 2 HOURS reading up on it?!?  Hahaha I've spent more than 2 MONTHS researching it.  But I'm sure you know more than me about Epistane.  I'm well aware it's liver toxic, all methyls are.  But Epi is alot milder than most.  And I'm taking proper measures dosing Cycle Support for a full 10 weeks before and during the cycle and through PCT.

I've read plenty of negative posts about Epi and have taken them into consideration.  But for every negative post, I've read 100 positive ones.  And as for water retention, sure there's going to be some.  But guys who have done it right are retaining most of their gains and some have even continued to gain during PCT.

In addition, Epi has anti-E properties and so there is little chance of gyno (even some chance of gyno reduction).  It's also very gentle on the libido.  You certainly can't say that about Test.


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## snoops (Nov 3, 2008)

I also dont understand why you would get your balls flamed off on almost any site for running an oral only cycle of illegal juice, but its ok to do oral only cycles of these new legal steroids.  I have not researched epistane much at all, so I could be wrong and you might be right that this stuff is "the real deal".


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## garyggiraffe (Nov 3, 2008)

snoops said:


> I think this is getting way off topic of what this guy started this thread for, but I would somewhat agree with Texan.  It amazes me sometimes how quick people are to take these new pro-hormones (or whatever you want to call the legal steroids).  I personally could never imagine taking an unknown substance, by an unknown and unregulated company, that is known to be liver toxic.  My health is worth more than the 5lbs I might be able to get from epistane, havoc, testanate or any of the other crap thats out.  Again, very off topic but just my two cents.



I appreciate your concern, but if you're 100% concerned with your health, you shouldn't be taking steroids period.  They have an adverse affect on cholesterol levels and can leave you with the testosterone levels of a 12 year old girl, whether they're injectables or orals.


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## snoops (Nov 3, 2008)

ha thanks man, Ill keep that in mind.


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## TexanTA1996 (Nov 3, 2008)

garyggiraffe said:


> You've spent 2 HOURS reading up on it?!?  Hahaha I've spent more than 2 MONTHS researching it.



I have a fair amount of knowledge about anabolics already, I don't need to spend 2 months researching a single compound.  Jesus, some people could do a dissertation in that amount of time.

The problem with cycle results is that what you're reading is a few days, or maybe a couple of weeks after the person has come off.  Talk to them 3 months after and see what they've retained.  

Water weight doesn't disappear overnight.  When you're talking about 10lbs of gain, that's nothing.  It's roughly twice what you could have done naturally, assuming you aimed for 1-1.5lb a week, and had absolutely no side effects or water retention.  The risk doesn't match up with the return.  It would be like investing in junk bonds and hoping for a 2% return on your investment.  Oh well, you've already convinced yourself of this, so do what you like.


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## ZECH (Nov 3, 2008)

Epi does not aromatize and has no estrogen conversion. Any guys that say they get gyno from it is after post cycle and more than likely did not do a proper pct to get estrogen down. Kelju has a thread here on his cycle and liked it very much. I'm on it right now and I like it. No problems what so ever. But I know what I was dealing with. Epi is methyl, but not overly toxic like SD. With a product like cycle support, it can be used easily.


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## garyggiraffe (Nov 3, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> I have a fair amount of knowledge about anabolics already, I don't need to spend 2 months researching a single compound.  Jesus, some people could do a dissertation in that amount of time.
> 
> The problem with cycle results is that what you're reading is a few days, or maybe a couple of weeks after the person has come off.  Talk to them 3 months after and see what they've retained.
> 
> Water weight doesn't disappear overnight.  When you're talking about 10lbs of gain, that's nothing.  It's roughly twice what you could have done naturally, assuming you aimed for 1-1.5lb a week, and had absolutely no side effects or water retention.  The risk doesn't match up with the return.  It would be like investing in junk bonds and hoping for a 2% return on your investment.  Oh well, you've already convinced yourself of this, so do what you like.



I understand there will be some loss as far as gains after getting off the stuff.  But trust me, I've talked to people 6 months removed from an Epi cycle who have retained almost all the gains.

And as for the weight gain, I'm sure you can attest to this, having a ton of experience with AAS.  A lb of muscle gained naturally is not created equal to a lb of muscle gained via steroids.  There are a ton of Epi users who are going up 50 lbs on their bench in a month.  They may have only gained 5 lbs, but those same 5 lbs gained without the juice aren't going to give you the same strength gains.  Plus there's the fat loss to think about as well.  If you gain 5 lbs and lower BF%, you're really gaining more than 5lbs of lean mass.  I would be very happy with the cycle if put on 5 lbs while getting leaner.  As you know, that's just not possible without hormones.

Epi has extremely mild sides, and I think I'm taking more than sufficient health precautions for what the compound is.  The only thing I'm really worried about is hair loss, b/c every other side is really really mild in most users.

I understand where you're coming from, having alot of experience and having a reliable source for injectables.  But try to see where I'm coming from too.  I don't have such a source and don't want to risk buying bunk gear or getting arrested.  Like I said, I wouldn't even know where to begin to find a reliable source for Test.


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## garyggiraffe (Nov 3, 2008)

dg806 said:


> Epi does not aromatize and has no estrogen conversion. Any guys that say they get gyno from it is after post cycle and more than likely did not do a proper pct to get estrogen down. Kelju has a thread here on his cycle and liked it very much. I'm on it right now and I like it. No problems what so ever. But I know what I was dealing with. Epi is methyl, but not overly toxic like SD. With a product like cycle support, it can be used easily.



I'm glad to hear you're liking epistane dg.  Hopefully I have as good of an experience as you do.


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## TexanTA1996 (Nov 3, 2008)

garyggiraffe said:


> There are a ton of Epi users who are going up 50 lbs on their bench in a month.  They may have only gained 5 lbs, but those same 5 lbs gained without the juice aren't going to give you the same strength gains.



I agree, but with a few small points...

Strength gains from steroids are temporary.  If you're running a drug like dbol, tren, winny or test-your strength will go through the roof, but that's only because you're using that particular drug.  Those temporary strength gains will cease immediately when you stop using the product.  You will retain *some* strength as a result of the newly acquired muscle you've built, but nothing like the strength you would experience during the cycle.

That's what I never seemed to understand, who cares about temporary strength gains.  Are you a power lifter?  If not, who cares how much you can bench?  I'm interested in keepable gains.  I don't care what temporary pump I get in the gym from using a drug.  Actually, when I was using anabolics, I would have rather done without the pump because for about 4 weeks after the cycle you feel like your muscles have been popped with a balloon.

I'm interested in building muscle, not becoming incredibly strong.  Granted strength plays a great role in progressive overload and building muscle, but changing my body is why I workout, not to hit a big bench.

A lot of ppl seem to disagree with me.  I was even considering buying a bottle of this stuff and trying it so my opinion would have more conviction, seeing as I have plenty of research chems laying around-but I'm still not convinced it's worth it.  The only thing that appeals to me is the possibility of recovering faster-seeing as how most "real" cycles shut you down for 10 weeks or longer.

As far as a test source, there's a ton of overseas websites that are highly reliable.  Years ago, I was on bb.com and one or two others for about 2 weeks before I found a good source.  The problem with overseas is there's usually a minimum order of around $200 or more, plus western union fees, shipping.  I eventually found a person who made test, and could get enough for an entire cycle for 40 bucks.  It was great.

Let me also add this.  Once you do a cycle, realize one thing.  Lifting will never be the same again.  Talk to anyone who has used steroids, it will change your lifting career forever.  No matter what you think now, lifting naturally will never be as fun as it use to be once you've dabbled.


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## biggfly (Nov 3, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> I agree, but with a few small points...
> 
> Strength gains from steroids are temporary.  If you're running a drug like dbol, tren, winny or test-your strength will go through the roof, but that's only because you're using that particular drug.  Those temporary strength gains will cease immediately when you stop using the product.  You will retain *some* strength as a result of the newly acquired muscle you've built, but nothing like the strength you would experience during the cycle.
> 
> ...



That was a good post.


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## garyggiraffe (Nov 3, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> I agree, but with a few small points...
> 
> Strength gains from steroids are temporary.  If you're running a drug like dbol, tren, winny or test-your strength will go through the roof, but that's only because you're using that particular drug.  Those temporary strength gains will cease immediately when you stop using the product.  You will retain *some* strength as a result of the newly acquired muscle you've built, but nothing like the strength you would experience during the cycle.



Well yeah of course you're going to lose strength as soon as you get off the juice, but the point is you're still going to net a greater strength gain per pound of muscle added with steroids than you would without.  And I guess strength gains to me are more important than they are to you.  I just don't see the point of adding bulk if it's not going to increase your physical capabilities.  You might as well just use Synthol...



TexanTA1996 said:


> A lot of ppl seem to disagree with me.  I was even considering buying a bottle of this stuff and trying it so my opinion would have more conviction, seeing as I have plenty of research chems laying around-but I'm still not convinced it's worth it.  The only thing that appeals to me is the possibility of recovering faster-seeing as how most "real" cycles shut you down for 10 weeks or longer.



That's one of the major reasons I chose to run a cycle of Epistane man.  Most people don't get shut down at all and some even experience an increase in libido.  Call me a pussy, but having my balls shut down scares the shit out of me.  I've heard tons of horror stories of people never being able to recover their HPTA.  That crap ruins your life bro and I'd rather not risk it.



TexanTA1996 said:


> As far as a test source, there's a ton of overseas websites that are highly reliable.  Years ago, I was on bb.com and one or two others for about 2 weeks before I found a good source.  The problem with overseas is there's usually a minimum order of around $200 or more, plus western union fees, shipping.  I eventually found a person who made test, and could get enough for an entire cycle for 40 bucks.  It was great.



Yeah I've seen the foreign sites, but how do you really know they're reliable?  And there's also a possibility your shipment gets seized by customs and then you've just thrown a ton of money away, not to mention possible legal issues.  And as for some dude making test in his basement, not sure I'd want to dabble in that either.  Seems pretty shady.


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## TexanTA1996 (Nov 3, 2008)

garyggiraffe said:


> That's one of the major reasons I chose to run a cycle of Epistane man.  Most people don't get shut down at all and some even experience an increase in libido.  Call me a pussy, but having my balls shut down scares the shit out of me.  I've heard tons of horror stories of people never being able to recover their HPTA.  That crap ruins your life bro and I'd rather not risk it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I've seen the foreign sites, but how do you really know they're reliable?  And there's also a possibility your shipment gets seized by customs and then you've just thrown a ton of money away, not to mention possible legal issues.  And as for some dude making test in his basement, not sure I'd want to dabble in that either.  Seems pretty shady.



Test has been researched a lot more than most drugs.  It's one of the safest drugs out there.  As far as recovery, there's a theory that once your shutdown, recovery will take the same amount of time, provided you aren't on an extremely long cycle (say 16 weeks or more).  A lot of people believe that there's not gonna be much difference in recovery between a 6 week cycle and a 10 week cycle.  I'm not necessarily agreeing with this, but it's something to consider.

Here's the thing with overseas sites.  Most of these sites are well known on some of the boards with bigger anabolic sections.  There are a handful that are known on all of these sites.  If a supplier started ripping people off, they'd be out of business in a real hurry.  Their entire business is based off their reputation on the boards-they can't afford to rip you off.  

As far as customs, it's such a slim chance it was never a concern for me.

All testosterone is manufactured somewhere, probably in a basement.  I knew the guy for several years from a board that I had posted on before I ever knew he brewed.  I'm not advising to meet someone and buy from them who you're unsure about.

If safety is your concern, I'd rather use test than a drug like epistane.


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## ZECH (Nov 3, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> I agree, but with a few small points...
> 
> Strength gains from steroids are temporary.  If you're running a drug like dbol, tren, winny or test-your strength will go through the roof, but that's only because you're using that particular drug.  Those temporary strength gains will cease immediately when you stop using the product.  You will retain *some* strength as a result of the newly acquired muscle you've built, but nothing like the strength you would experience during the cycle.
> 
> ...



Agree, better post!


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## garyggiraffe (Nov 4, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> If safety is your concern, I'd rather use test than a drug like epistane.



I agree and disagree.  Obviously epistane is very new and no one really knows its long term effects.  However, the short term effects of epi are certainly milder than test.  The only thing you really have to worry about is liver toxicity and epi is very mild as far as that goes, easily protected for with liver support.  With test, there's a huge risk for hair loss, gyno, and it's going to shut you down like a mofo.  Plus the stuff I already mentioned about purity, sterility, and the chance of screwing up the injection and ending up with infections, abscesses, etc.  Compound that with legal issues and there's just WAY more to be worried about with test than with epistane.

I guess you know exactly what you're getting with test, which is certainly a positive, but I don't like what I'd be getting.  Seriously, I don't think I could go 3+ months without being able to get it up.  That's really scary.


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## TexanTA1996 (Nov 4, 2008)

garyggiraffe said:


> Seriously, I don't think I could go 3+ months without being able to get it up.  That's really scary.



I don't know who you've been talking to, but you will never experience a higher level of sex drive/hard-ons than when you're using testosterone.

When people say 'shut you down', they simply mean your body stops producing it's own testosterone.  Yea, it does this when you're running test, because your body is currently circulating a superhuman amount of test from the injections you're giving yourself.

If there's one positive side effect from test, it's an animalistic sex drive, I'm not even exaggerating.  That's probably an understatement.


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## garyggiraffe (Nov 4, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> I don't know who you've been talking to, but you will never experience a higher level of sex drive/hard-ons than when you're using testosterone.
> 
> When people say 'shut you down', they simply mean your body stops producing it's own testosterone.  Yea, it does this when you're running test, because your body is currently circulating a superhuman amount of test from the injections you're giving yourself.
> 
> If there's one positive side effect from test, it's an animalistic sex drive, I'm not even exaggerating.  That's probably an understatement.



I was talking about during PCT.  If you're off the juice and your body is no longer producing it's own testosterone, how could you have any libido whatsoever?


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## TexanTA1996 (Nov 4, 2008)

garyggiraffe said:


> I was talking about during PCT.  If you're off the juice and your body is no longer producing it's own testosterone, how could you have any libido whatsoever?



This isn't specific to test, it's something that comes along with using steroids.


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## garyggiraffe (Nov 4, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> This isn't specific to test, it's something that comes along with using steroids.



Epistane doesn't shut most people down, that's what I'm saying.  That's a HUGE positive over using test for me.  That in combination with the relative mildness of all the other sides I already discussed makes the liver toxicity worth it IMO.  Especially since epi isn't nearly as hard on the liver as other orals.  Perhaps some day I'll transition to injectables, but I doubt it.  This could certainly change, but I don't plan on being a habitual steroid user.  At this point, if I like my first cycle, maybe 1 cycle a year and most likely less.


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## ZECH (Nov 4, 2008)

Yes epi will shut down your natural test. It is a steroid. That is why everyone recommends Nolva for pct.....to get your natural test production started again quickly.


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## ZECH (Nov 4, 2008)

Hint......once you get use to training with an edge, it's hard to go back!


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## TexanTA1996 (Nov 4, 2008)

garyggiraffe said:


> I don't plan on being a habitual steroid user.  At this point, if I like my first cycle, maybe 1 cycle a year and most likely less.



4 weeks into my first cycle, I was planning my second cycle.  

If epistane didn't shut you down, there would be no reason for post cycle therapy.


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## garyggiraffe (Nov 4, 2008)

dg806 said:


> Yes epi will shut down your natural test. It is a steroid. That is why everyone recommends Nolva for pct.....to get your natural test production started again quickly.



Yes to a certain extent, but most of the people I've talked to did not get shut down completely.  As for the Nolva, TONS of people are doing epi cycles with an OTC PCT and doing just fine.  And the Nolva isn't just to reboot the boys man, it's for gyno protection as well.


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## ZECH (Nov 5, 2008)

You can go any route that you want. Nolva just gets you back quicker and that is what you want to maintain your gains. For all practical purposes, you will get shutdown. Even with SD, I have seen test levels in single digits. Not total shutdown, but it takes you a hell of a long time to recoup. Even a partial shutdown by a mild steroid, is problems if you don't get your natural test back up and acting quickly. That is how people end up on HRT.


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## workingatit43 (Nov 5, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Considering he's using the product for 10 weeks, I'd certainly hope he'd be able to put on 10lbs, lol.  Was this a serious comment, or were you joking?



You keep telling people to use real test because it is so much better. You laugh at someone who on a 4 week oral cycle gains 10lbs but in your own words above you state that a 10 week test only cycle will gain 25lbs. Now I have been out of school for a while but with my math both cycles would produce a average gain of 2.5 pounds a week


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## TexanTA1996 (Nov 5, 2008)

workingatit43 said:


> You keep telling people to use real test because it is so much better. You laugh at someone who on a 4 week oral cycle gains 10lbs but in your own words above you state that a 10 week test only cycle will gain 25lbs. Now I have been out of school for a while but with my math both cycles would produce a average gain of 2.5 pounds a week





First off, the reason 4 week cycles blow is because the human body can only build muscle so quickly.  Even with steroids, 4 weeks isn't enough time to put on a substantial amount of muscle.  Most of the initial weight gain is water weight.  

How much muscle do you expect to build in 4 weeks, honestly?  Even dbol can take a week to really have an effect.  Nobody does 4 week cycles because they're crappy.  That's why most cycles (for the average user) are in the 10-12 week range.

Even taking into consideration all of this, with a 10 week test cycle you've not only minimized liver damage, but the muscle building properties of testosterone blow away a drug like epistane.  Test is the base for EVERY cycle.  There isn't a single competitive bodybuilder who would ever run a cycle without test, it's the foundation.


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