# Your opinions on low volume, moderate, high volume, and training in general-BB NOT PL



## AgainstAllOdds (Aug 20, 2003)

I want to hear the opinions of you experienced bodybuilders about low, moderate, high, and just training in general--focus is only on bodybuilding, I really don't care at all about strength. 

Personally, I think too many get caught up in the weights and have too much of an engo to put up smaller weights and use a slower movement -- longer TUT. But I'm new and don't know much.

From what I've seen, most successfull bodybuilders use high volume cycled with moderate volume and the occasional low volume days. 

What do you really think a beginner would benefit the most with?

And how many rest days should a beginner have?

I've been working out for a while now, I seem to be making good size gains and getting more cut. So far I'm training for high volume but some days I just stop when I feel I've done as much as I can--I also use constant tension and extremely slow negatives. Some rest pausing too. Reps are usually 6-12. I've read that every 3-4 weeks I should change to higher reps or I'll stop gaining, then take a week off and start again. 

I don't want you guys to design a split for me or anything; I'm just wondering: if you could start all over again, what would you do for a routine?

High frequency w/ moderate volume? High volume once a week? Moderate once a week? Something else?

And besides the general structure of the routine, what "shocks" would you focus most on? Shocks like supersets, trisets, giant sets, etc.


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## AgainstAllOdds (Aug 20, 2003)

My goal is to put on 20lbs+ by the end of December. Lean muscle, not just bulking where I gain a lot of fat. I believe it's possible for someone new to the sport -- if you train hard, eat wisely, and get as much sleep as you can.


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## ZECH (Aug 20, 2003)

You will not gain 20 lbs of lean muscle in 4 months.


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## AgainstAllOdds (Aug 20, 2003)

I will.


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## gr81 (Aug 20, 2003)

no you won't, not unless you are juicing pal. By the way if gaining weight as quickly as possible is so important to you than you need to understand that you are going to put on some fat, tat is the way the games goes. If you want to be bulking, you have to be able to cope with saying bye to the abs for a while, too bad.


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## Arnold (Aug 20, 2003)

I have two answers to your question:

1.) You should use all methods, low volume, moderate and heavy in different cycles thru out the year.

2.) We're all a bit different in our muscle fiber make-up and you need to find out what works best for you. Some people respond better to high volume training, some respond better to low.

As far as shocking techniques, use them sparingly, not every work-out.

If I could start all over again I would take more rest between work-outs, and breaks from training. When i was younger I was so driven and gung ho about working out I was usually on a split hitting each body part 2 times per week, and training 6 days per week. I was definitely in a state of overtraining most of the time.

As far as the weight gain, I have seen beginners gain a lot of weight quick, so if you train smart, eat properly, etc., you might come close to your goal.


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## oaktownboy (Aug 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by AgainstAllOdds *_
> I will.
> *yeah right *


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## gr81 (Aug 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> As far as the weight gain, I have seen beginners gain a lot of weight quick, so if you train smart, eat properly, etc., you might come close to your goal.



you do have to agree with this, I suppose I don't know how much of a beginner he is, if this is your first weight lifting cycle then you could put on 20 lbs, most likely not all lean muscle though.


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## ponyboy (Aug 21, 2003)

That's exactly it...20 pounds is no problem if you eat properly and train hard in four months.  But there's no way to gain 20 pounds of LBM only in four months unless you're jacked on juice, and even then it isn't muscle, it's probably water.  

Like Prince said, varying your methods works best, keep your body guessing and throw new things at it constantly.  Everyone is an individual.


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## AgainstAllOdds (Aug 21, 2003)

What positives attitudes you all have...

I'm gaining pretty well now but maybe I'm just a genetic freak 

Prince, what do you think of full body routines? I've heard A LOT of bad shit about them but a few good things -- mainly from HST'ers which I think I don't think is that great for a bodybuilder...


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## AgainstAllOdds (Aug 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> no you won't, not unless you are juicing pal. By the way if gaining weight as quickly as possible is so important to you than you need to understand that you are going to put on some fat, tat is the way the games goes. If you want to be bulking, you have to be able to cope with saying bye to the abs for a while, too bad.



I don't believe that's true if you know your shit. T-mag is not dangerously hardcore lol, why do you have that in your sig? Is that where you get the negative attitude from?


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## gr81 (Aug 21, 2003)

what, have you ever been to t-mag before? how dare you! If you read my next post I said that if you are a newbie then it may be possible to gain the weight, but you obviously didn't care to read that. Why do you think that I have a negative attitude? I do know my shit, believe that, you don't just keep making insane weight gains after you put in your time, most of it becomes pick and shovel work for the most part. how long have you been BB anyways, you said you are new to this, I have been at it alot longer than you have if thats the case, and I have done my research. you are welcome to test me if you like. Ask any real BB and they will tell you that while bulking you are going to add some fat, no doubt. You can't be afraid to lose those abs for a while, there is a reason why bulking and cutting are two different things. I don't see why that is negative, it is realistic.


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## OceanDude (Aug 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ponyboy *_
> But there's no way to gain 20 pounds of LBM only in four months unless you're jacked on juice, and even then it isn't muscle, it's probably water.
> 
> Like Prince said, varying your methods works best, keep your body guessing and throw new things at it constantly.  Everyone is an individual.



I like your last sentence Pony - everyone is an individual. 

Let's also not forget that muscle volume is over 70% water/fluid volume at any muscle size anyway. So in a manner of speaking this is precisely what we want - more water/fluid volume and a little more substrate to hold it all.

Also, all you guys I don't really agree on the juice thing. Let's not forget that up until not too recently the research and medical communities did not all agree that steroids produced massive growth. I???ll avoid the religious wars on the merits of steroids but for those of us that don???t want the side effects or later life issues we can get good fast results by being smart about things.

I know this is blaspheme in here but:
The prevailing wisdom through the 1970s was that anabolic steroids cannot possibly increase muscle mass.  Which was the consensus opinion of the AMA, medical textbook authors, and most physicians. As late as 1991 the Physician's Desk Reference, standard guide to prescription medicines, includes the warning: ???ANABOLIC STEROIDS DO NOT ENHANCE ATHLETIC ABILITY . Controlled research among male athletes given steroids has generally found little evidence of enhanced strength or performance".

My only point is that wisdom seems to change a lot over time as we get smarter.

I personally believe that you can get tremendous growth using the body???s natural mechanisms and doing smart things with diet and exercise to enhance natural hormonal effects. I gained 16 lbs of lean body mass in 5 months at age 47 lifting at only the ???intermediate??? level. Think how much better I would have done if I had known the more advanced techniques and done more compound movements. Actually, I knew about them I just has some back issues that made me shy away from some.

Here is a guy that thinks the same as I do : http://www.musclenow.com/ . For the money you save in not using supplements you can easily buy his course. This is not really an endorsement but he looks legit.


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## AgainstAllOdds (Aug 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> what, have you ever been to t-mag before? how dare you! If you read my next post I said that if you are a newbie then it may be possible to gain the weight, but you obviously didn't care to read that. Why do you think that I have a negative attitude? I do know my shit, believe that, you don't just keep making insane weight gains after you put in your time, most of it becomes pick and shovel work for the most part. how long have you been BB anyways, you said you are new to this, I have been at it alot longer than you have if thats the case, and I have done my research. you are welcome to test me if you like. Ask any real BB and they will tell you that while bulking you are going to add some fat, no doubt. You can't be afraid to lose those abs for a while, there is a reason why bulking and cutting are two different things. I don't see why that is negative, it is realistic.



I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, but t-mag is a joke in my opinion. Yes, I've read nearly all of their bullshit, they just want their readers to get shitty results (this is why the fuck up good programs like GVT) so they decide to buy their crappy biotest products because they aren't getting any results. 

We'll see what happens, I'll post back in December.


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## Arnold (Aug 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by AgainstAllOdds *_
> What positives attitudes you all have...


I was positive.




> Prince, what do you think of full body routines? I've heard A LOT of bad shit about them but a few good things -- mainly from HST'ers which I think I don't think is that great for a bodybuilder...


Personally, I do not like them except for a beginner, but that's just me.


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## gr81 (Aug 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by AgainstAllOdds *_
> I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, but t-mag is a joke in my opinion. Yes, I've read nearly all of their bullshit, they just want their readers to get shitty results (this is why the fuck up good programs like GVT) so they decide to buy their crappy biotest products because they aren't getting any results.




OMG how can you say that it is a joke, you couldn't have possibly read ALL of their shit. If you did you wouldn't be here asking us questions, we would be asking you questions, they are the only practical muscle mag out ther that applies to real lifters, not genetic freaks. Maybe the science in their articlle wass too much for you, is that it? Nevermind their supps, how about their scientific approach to training ands diet that they have  every week. U obvioously do not know what they are all about, but it is all good newbie, go ahead and read you flex mags and learn how to get bigger bis in 6 weeks, or whatever BS they are feeding you b/c that is the alternative. I sugggest for you as a newbie to keep your mouth closed and your ears and mind open and start learning.


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## AgainstAllOdds (Aug 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> OMG how can you say that it is a joke, you couldn't have possibly read ALL of their shit. If you did you wouldn't be here asking us questions, we would be asking you questions, they are the only practical muscle mag out ther that applies to real lifters, not genetic freaks. Maybe the science in their articlle wass too much for you, is that it? Nevermind their supps, how about their scientific approach to training ands diet that they have  every week. U obvioously do not know what they are all about, but it is all good newbie, go ahead and read you flex mags and learn how to get bigger bis in 6 weeks, or whatever BS they are feeding you b/c that is the alternative. I sugggest for you as a newbie to keep your mouth closed and your ears and mind open and start learning.



Well, I'm not really asking all of you questions -- only actual competitive bodybuilders. T-mag I think is a joke, that's just my opinion. Besides the actual content, have you read their forums? It's basically just people bitching about how they think they're overtrained and how they should be able to eat whatever they want when the bulk -- then they wonder why they look like a fatass. 

Anyway, thanks..


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## gr81 (Aug 22, 2003)

You can't take what people say on a forums as a representitive of what the mag stands for, people are individuals who can say whatever they want. Read the actual content and learn something and stop calling the mag a joke. I am a T-man and I am damn proud to be one. We are not just weight lifters, we are a cut above the rest, we have an insatiable thirst for the knowledge that others do not want to bother with b/c it sounds to scientific. We are not just BB, we carry this testosterone filled proud life and it shows in every thing we do, we are what is left of the hardcore lifters in this PC/ pussified world and sport we are living in nowadays, we are throwbacks to the days of blood and sweat combined with the new age science that is available to us, you should be so lucky to be a T-man, do not call this mag a joke, it is no joke. And believe me AgA, I have the knowledge to have you competing. don't base assumptions on whether someone competes or not, anyone can jump on stage, but only a dedicated person can do it successfully, believe that.


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## OceanDude (Aug 22, 2003)

It's starting to sound like one sided religion again...

Agree on one concept here - the world has been and is being purposely "wussified". Enuff said - simple and short.


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## gr81 (Aug 22, 2003)

too many woman in charge, that is the problem, I don't know why we started listening to them in the first place. HA ha


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## AgainstAllOdds (Aug 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> You can't take what people say on a forums as a representitive of what the mag stands for, people are individuals who can say whatever they want. Read the actual content and learn something and stop calling the mag a joke. I am a T-man and I am damn proud to be one. We are not just weight lifters, we are a cut above the rest, we have an insatiable thirst for the knowledge that others do not want to bother with b/c it sounds to scientific. We are not just BB, we carry this testosterone filled proud life and it shows in every thing we do, we are what is left of the hardcore lifters in this PC/ pussified world and sport we are living in nowadays, we are throwbacks to the days of blood and sweat combined with the new age science that is available to us, you should be so lucky to be a T-man, do not call this mag a joke, it is no joke. And believe me AgA, I have the knowledge to have you competing. don't base assumptions on whether someone competes or not, anyone can jump on stage, but only a dedicated person can do it successfully, believe that.



I've read a damn lot of t-mag articles, I've also read a lot of articles other places, which I consider to be better sources..Besides articles, I get my information from real people too -- which was the point of this post, to see if any bodybuilders post here...The reference to the forum was just to point out that most of the "hardcore" members actually are skinny fats or just fatasses that once had a dream to be a bodybuilder but then started training for strength when they realized that they were too much of a pussy to endure the pain that's needed to be a great bodybuilder -- as seen in their picture forum. Or they just start saying STRENGTH = SIZE, when that's not true at all...That's why they continue to look like shit, ignorance.  If you look in the training forum, you'll find people bitching about overtraining -- they think they're scientific when in reality they really just follow shit blindly; that's not science.


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## AgainstAllOdds (Aug 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> too many woman in charge, that is the problem, I don't know why we started listening to them in the first place. HA ha



That's really ignorant. The real problem with this country is the way the republicans only help the rich and fuck the poor by creating conflict between the middle class, poor and between minorities -- like women...


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## gr81 (Aug 22, 2003)

dude I am getting tired of you already, I was joking man. I tell you what mr science, since you are the expert whyt don't you PM me and we can compaire stats and see if you can beat out a skinny ignorant T-man as you put it. We can also compare our knowledge base to since my mag teaches you nothing. You can find people on this forum and web site that ask silly questions about everything, does this mean that IRONMAG has bad info, no it doesn't. The poeple are no reflection of the site, and I guarantee you T-MAG has never told anyone that size equals strength, nor have they advocated overtraining or whatever else you said.
 You know I started out trying to give you good advice since you said you are a newbie, byut ever since then you have done nothing but tell me how wrong I am. Yopur comments about training in general, and especially t-mag tell me exectly what kind of lifter you are and what you know. You comments are unjutified and you have no substantial evidence or examples of any kind to back up your claims so I am done with you. Feel free to PM me though BIG MAN since you know so much. We will see.


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## rburton (Aug 23, 2003)

Bodybuilders have used numerous training protocols to acquire their desired goals. 

I suggest that you search this site, as well as other sites, to acquire as much data as possible before you make any decisions about what is effective and what is "s---", as you put it.


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## MikeSimms (Feb 22, 2005)

Against all odds I think you can do it.  I gained 7pounds in just 2 weeks on the Freaky Big Naturally training program and I am lifetime natural.  Wade's stuff is awesome and in his Mindset of a Natural Champion CD he goes into great detail about a positive attitude, scientific training, and an iron will.  He also states lots of losers will try to bring you down but don't let him.  I hope you gain 20 pounds+.  Think big.  You can check out his site at www.freakygrowth.com.   I just heard his free Megabolic Drive Seminar and it is totally awesome.  You can get it for free from his site. TRAIN HARD!!


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## musclepump (Feb 22, 2005)

I won't say you're NOT going to reach your goal, but it's unlikely. post before/after pics though and bring us all along for the ride.


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## SlimShady (Feb 22, 2005)

MikeSimms said:
			
		

> Against all odds I think you can do it. I gained 7pounds in just 2 weeks on the Freaky Big Naturally training program and I am lifetime natural. Wade's stuff is awesome and in his Mindset of a Natural Champion CD he goes into great detail about a positive attitude, scientific training, and an iron will. He also states lots of losers will try to bring you down but don't let him. I hope you gain 20 pounds+. Think big. You can check out his site at www.freakygrowth.com. I just heard his free Megabolic Drive Seminar and it is totally awesome. You can get it for free from his site. TRAIN HARD!!


 Against All Odds posted this thread over 2 years ago dude. I hope he can gain 20 lbs in 2 years. Seriously, why dig up a 2 year old thread and then encourage the guy.? I doubt he will ever see this. Or was the goal to spam us with that fucked up site (again)?


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