# Smith Machine.....



## boxingorilla (Sep 3, 2010)

Consider me old school but I have avoided the smith machine up until this last week...and I have no idea why!  I love this thing, but I have to ask- does anyone know how much weight it "takes off" the lift?  I can lift considerably more, especially my inclined bench on the smith, then just normal inclined bp.


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## Marat (Sep 3, 2010)

boxingorilla said:


> I have avoided the smith machine up until this last week...and I have no idea why!  I love this thing



Neither do I but I can tell you that you were a better man a week ago


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## boxingorilla (Sep 3, 2010)

m11 said:


> Neither do I but I can tell you that you were a better man a week ago



Real helpful


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## MDR (Sep 3, 2010)

m11 said:


> Neither do I but I can tell you that you were a better man a week ago



I think he just meant that free weights are the better option.  There is a reason you can do more weight with the Smith.  With free weights you will gain size and strength much quicker.


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## Flathead (Sep 3, 2010)

m11 said:


> Neither do I but I can tell you that you were a better man a week ago


 





boxingorilla said:


> Real helpful


 

We've had this debate a 100x & the general consensus is "the Smith Machine is nothing but a crutch". The only way you could figure the delta between smith versus free weight would be to perform a 1RM on each.


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## boxingorilla (Sep 3, 2010)

MDR said:


> I think he just meant that free weights are the better option.  There is a reason you can do more weight with the Smith.  With free weights you will gain size and strength much quicker.



Yes, this is my point, my question still remains-how much weight is taken off by using a smith machine, in other words does anyone know their max bench on the bp and their max on the smith? the difference of the two would give me an idea of the weight taken off.


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## boxingorilla (Sep 3, 2010)

Flathead said:


> We've had this debate a 100x & the general consensus is "the Smith Machine is nothing but a crutch". The only way you could figure the delta between smith versus free weight would be to perform a 1RM on each.


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## LAM (Sep 3, 2010)

boxingorilla said:


> Yes, this is my point, my question still remains-how much weight is taken off by using a smith machine, in other words does anyone know their max bench on the bp and their max on the smith? the difference of the two would give me an idea of the weight taken off.



there are many manufactures of them and they are all slightly different. with no real standard I doubt there would be any accurate conversion of weight from free weight to smith

machines will always be inferior to free weights because they do not move in all of the planes and axes of movement of the human body.

machines are best used to supplement a free weight based training program


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## Marat (Sep 3, 2010)

MDR said:


> I think he just meant that free weights are the better option.  There is a reason you can do more weight with the Smith.  With free weights you will gain size and strength much quicker.



Thanks MDR, that's precisely what I meant.

Boxingorilla, there probably isn't a published/accepted conversion for predicting the load when going from a Smith to a bench and vice versa. 

The purpose of my post was to illustrate that you are far better served sticking with your previous old school principles.


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## BigBoiH (Sep 3, 2010)

I was like you at one point and time. I started to use the smith in replace of the power rack because they were full at the gym one time. After a month of using it I injured my back squatting with the machine. Definetly stay away if you know whats good for you.


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## MDR (Sep 3, 2010)

boxingorilla said:


> Yes, this is my point, my question still remains-how much weight is taken off by using a smith machine, in other words does anyone know their max bench on the bp and their max on the smith? the difference of the two would give me an idea of the weight taken off.



I think Flathead came up with the best solution.  Do a 1rep max with free weight flat bench and with the Smith machine, and you will have an idea of how much the Smith is taking off.  Best if you did this yourself, because there are many manufacturers out there, and the Smith machine at my gym might be very different from yours.  Hope this is helpful.


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## gtbmed (Sep 3, 2010)

Why did anyone ever invent that thing in the first place?  It's amazing that it actually caught on, there must be a lot of people with very little knowledge of biomechanics who buy fitness equipment...


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## Marat (Sep 3, 2010)

gtbmed said:


> Why did anyone ever invent that thing in the first place?



It's expensive as hell and Mr. Smith probably foresaw that every gym would order them in triplicate.


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## Life (Sep 3, 2010)

It would be an easy problem to solve for how much weight the smith is taking off, you'd just need the angle that its at. You would have an x and y equation is all. I'm not exactly sure what you guys mean by taking the weight off though Smith might be a crutch but sometimes a crutch is a good idea when safety is involved. If it was a matter of you benching heavy on a flat bench without a spotter vs. heavy on the smith I'd much rather see you on the smith. Or you could do dumbbells 

If its an ~80 degree angle and you have 800lbs on then that would be 470lbs in the y and 647lbs in the x. y being vertical and x being horizontal.  So you'd be doing somewhere around 650lbs. Been a while since I did dynamics and I did that in my head so it might be wrong if someone wants to actually know I can model it...


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## LAM (Sep 3, 2010)

Life said:


> It would be an easy problem to solve for how much weight the smith is taking off, you'd just need the angle that its at. You would have an x and y equation is all. I'm not exactly sure what you guys mean by taking the weight off though Smith might be a crutch but sometimes a crutch is a good idea when safety is involved. If it was a matter of you benching heavy on a flat bench without a spotter vs. heavy on the smith I'd much rather see you on the smith. Or you could do dumbbells
> 
> If its an ~80 degree angle and you have 800lbs on then that would be 470lbs in the y and 647lbs in the x. y being vertical and x being horizontal.  So you'd be doing somewhere around 650lbs. Been a while since I did dynamics and I did that in my head so it might be wrong if someone wants to actually know I can model it...



what about the friction?  for me the main problem with smith benching is that for many the bench press is not a totally linear movement.  and with the smith it forces you into a fixed pattern of movement


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## gtbmed (Sep 3, 2010)

Smith machine = fixed movement pattern

How many people do you think have bodies that allow them to lift along that exact plane of motion?  If you don't have a spotter then don't lift a weight that requires one.  It's that simple really.

And no, it's not just as simple as doing some vector calculations.  A weight supported at the ends is a hell of a lot easier to lift than a weight that needs to be balanced.  That's why you see guys dominate the lat pulldown machine but they can't do a single chinup.  I find that especially hilarious.


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## Life (Sep 3, 2010)

LAM said:


> what about the friction?  for me the main problem with smith benching is that for many the bench press is not a totally linear movement.  and with the smith it forces you into a fixed pattern of movement



How much of a friction force do you want to add? Honestly unless the smith is old you can pretty much assume there is no friction for the amount of friction it adds. I can throw one from the bottom to the top so I didn't include friction. Do you want to say the cfc. of kinetic friction is .1? (Min is 0 max is 1) if so then thats 64.7lbs + 647 ~ 738lbs which is probably more accurate.


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## stylus187 (Sep 3, 2010)

boxingorilla said:


> Yes, this is my point, my question still remains-how much weight is taken off by using a smith machine, in other words does anyone know their max bench on the bp and their max on the smith? the difference of the two would give me an idea of the weight taken off.


 I can train a little safer and heavier with the smith machine. I like my free weights ofcourse, but honestly I get a better burn and focused pump on my targeted muscle, while using the smith. I do believe you can a little more weight up on the smith, but does it really matter? If you are gonna use the smith dont discard your free bench. I like the smith machine for doing negative as I mentioned earlier I get an awesome pump and burn from doing a few more controlled reps, due to the safety factor of the smith. Just my opinion. stylus 187


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## 200+ (Sep 3, 2010)

stylus187 said:


> I can train a little safer and heavier with the smith machine. I like my free weights ofcourse, but honestly I get a better burn and focused pump on my targeted muscle, while using the smith. I do believe you can a little more weight up on the smith, but does it really matter? If you are gonna use the smith dont discard your free bench. I like the smith machine for doing negative as I mentioned earlier I get an awesome pump and burn from doing a few more controlled reps, due to the safety factor of the smith. Just my opinion. stylus 187



I think the "safety" is an illusion


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## ScorpionKing (Sep 3, 2010)

I like working out on my smith rack/machine. I got a bodysolid smith rack and a parabody smith rack.  I got these for my home gym. I work out alone so for safety reasons I need these. I do have a free weight bench for when I have a buddy over to spot. The body sold smith machine also has 2 safety are attachments that latch on the front of the rack for doing free weight bench presses. I posted pics awhile back of my gym that show my smith racks. Post name: MY Home Gym.


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## gtbmed (Sep 4, 2010)

That's one of the reasons why I like O lifting - no spotter required.  If you can't make a weight, you just drop it and walk away.  Of course you have to learn how to bail out, but still...


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## MDR (Sep 4, 2010)

I've mentioned this before on this site, so forgive me for being redundant.  The Smith machine was very helpful when I was returning to the gym after lower back surgery.  As soon as possible, I did move to free weights.  I liked the Smith during this rehab phase, but getting away from it as quickly as I could was always the goal.


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## OTG85 (Sep 4, 2010)

I use the smith machine for all bench pressing movements.I had a shoulder injury tho so I have a excuse.But you can build muscle still on a smith machine but if you can use free weights no excuse.


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## damus (Sep 4, 2010)

Fair enough it forces you to push in a fixed linear pattern of movement therefore removing the use of stabalizers, which equals less gains at the equivalent amount of weight used on a free barbell.....but is the smith machine actually damaging to you, apart from giving you the illusion that you can lift more than in reality.

The majority of my chest workouts is with dumbells, but i do use the machine when doing heavy squats.


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## 200+ (Sep 4, 2010)

damus said:


> Fair enough it forces you to push in a fixed linear pattern of movement therefore removing the use of stabalizers, which equals less gains at the equivalent amount of weight used on a free barbell.....but is the smith machine actually damaging to you, apart from giving you the illusion that you can lift more than in reality.
> 
> The majority of my chest workouts is with dumbells, but i do use the machine when doing heavy squats.




From what I have read, there is a possibility of shearing of the knees when you use the smith doing squats.  Maybe you can eliminate this on the smith with perfect form?...


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## damus (Sep 4, 2010)

Shit...actually ive just done some research and found squats using a smith machine IS bad for numerous reasons. The only reason i used the smith was because both my home gym and university gym doesnt have a squat rack. I guess i'll just stick to deadlifts for now, and thank god i dont have any knee/back problems.


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## gtbmed (Sep 4, 2010)

1) learn cleans
2) clean weight
3) front squat


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## fufu (Sep 4, 2010)

Apples and oranges.


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## LAM (Sep 4, 2010)

I think it's safe to say that all machines force us to use fixed patterns of movement and is one of the main reasons why they should be used to supplement free weights.  pattern overload is one reason not to have a machine based workout if maximum strength or muscular development is the main goal.


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## OTG85 (Sep 4, 2010)

LAM said:


> I think it's safe to say that all machines force us to use fixed patterns of movement and is one of the main reasons why they should be used to supplement free weights. pattern overload is one reason not to have a machine based workout if maximum strength or muscular development is the main goal.


 
true,Soon as my shoulder 100% bye bye smith machine


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## Merkaba (Sep 4, 2010)

boxingorilla said:


> Consider me old school but I have avoided the smith machine up until this last week...and I have no idea why!  I love this thing, but I have to ask- does anyone know how much weight it "takes off" the lift?  I can lift considerably more, especially my inclined bench on the smith, then just normal inclined bp.



Typical.  It's an ego thing.  Sorry I come from a background  of studying right and left brain tendencies.  

Your ego side of the brain is concerned about numbers, instead of safety or efficiency.  So you're asking about how much weight it "takes off" or that you can move and not about more important concerns.  So what you can push up 300 lbs but say it was really 275?  Why would you want to do this or train in a manner where you HAD to do this in order to track potential progress? Then one day you're going to do what, switch to a real exercise and realize you didn't really make that much of a gain because you weren't training in the proper way?  

It might sound like I'm attacking but I'm not.  It's just why I don't advise you to use it.  Its like running 2 miles a day on the treadmill then switching to real running.  It's just not the same and you're not doing the same work, so why do it.  Sure you can use the smith for anything you like, but it's not as safe or optimal as would be other wise so why do it? I don't understand the concept realy of using machines unless you're rehabbing and then minimal. 

And yes furthermore, name one set of muscles that can move a joint along a linear 2 dimensional path.  Every movement is an arc along multiple axes.


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## OTG85 (Sep 5, 2010)

Merkaba said:


> Typical. It's an ego thing. Sorry I come from a background of studying right and left brain tendencies.
> 
> Your ego side of the brain is concerned about numbers, instead of safety or efficiency. So you're asking about how much weight it "takes off" or that you can move and not about more important concerns. So what you can push up 300 lbs but say it was really 275? Why would you want to do this or train in a manner where you HAD to do this in order to track potential progress? Then one day you're going to do what, switch to a real exercise and realize you didn't really make that much of a gain because you weren't training in the proper way?
> 
> ...


 

you right about running on a treadmill for a while then trying to switch to running outside.I thaught I was a cardio monster on the treadmill then when I made the switch I broke down 1/2 the time outside.


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## 200+ (Sep 5, 2010)

Merkaba said:


> Typical.  It's an ego thing.  Sorry I come from a background  of studying right and left brain tendencies.
> 
> Your ego side of the brain is concerned about numbers, instead of safety or efficiency.  So you're asking about how much weight it "takes off" or that you can move and not about more important concerns.  So what you can push up 300 lbs but say it was really 275?  Why would you want to do this or train in a manner where you HAD to do this in order to track potential progress? Then one day you're going to do what, switch to a real exercise and realize you didn't really make that much of a gain because you weren't training in the proper way?
> 
> ...



Well stated!  I was very concerned about the numbers for a long time until I saw the light and stopped paying attention to how much it really was.  It's all relative anyway.  It's amazing how when you focus on form and delivery, the strength and size come with it. 

Besides, I love it when the guy next to me feels the need to throw around a bunch of weight, then I grab much less and do it with perfect form.  The funny thing is that I am usually bigger then those guys


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## bigsalad22 (Sep 5, 2010)

i understand everyone here saying the smith machine is for pussies and blah blah blah....that's cool. everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but really....the smith machine is just another machine. sure, if you use it to replace free weight movements in your workouts...its going to hurt your progress, but as for it being totally worthless....i don't agree. its just like any other machine in terms of limiting you to a fixed pattern motion. does that mean we should never ever use any machines? no, thats ridiculous. machines have their place in bodybuilding too. they just should not be your focus, but they still have their place.
meerkaba...i totally hear what your saying, but don't you think that using a hammer strength machine at the end of a chest workout can be benificial? after your delts and chest are almost completely trashed...
i've had a lot of success for a lot of years by using machines in my workouts. free weights will always be my focus, but i will almost alway incorpirate at least one machine in each workout.


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## Merkaba (Sep 5, 2010)

bigsalad22 said:


> i understand everyone here saying the smith machine is for pussies and blah blah blah....that's cool. everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but really....the smith machine is just another machine. sure, if you use it to replace free weight movements in your workouts...its going to hurt your progress, but as for it being totally worthless....i don't agree. its just like any other machine in terms of limiting you to a fixed pattern motion. does that mean we should never ever use any machines? no, thats ridiculous. machines have their place in bodybuilding too. they just should not be your focus, but they still have their place.
> meerkaba...i totally hear what your saying, but don't you think that using a hammer strength machine at the end of a chest workout can be benificial? after your delts and chest are almost completely trashed...
> i've had a lot of success for a lot of years by using machines in my workouts. free weights will always be my focus, but i will almost alway incorpirate at least one machine in each workout.



Who said the smith was for pussies?  

And why would you want to trash a muscle group?


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## bigsalad22 (Sep 5, 2010)

Merkaba said:


> Who said the smith was for pussies?
> 
> And why would you want to trash a muscle group?


 
maybe your taking the word "trashed" a little too literaly. 
how about "exhausted to the point where its not safe to go heavy with a free weight movement"
as for who said the smith machine was for pussies....take a look at the rest of the thread. that part was not directed at you.


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## gtbmed (Sep 5, 2010)

If your supporting muscles are so exhausted that it's not safe to go heavy with a free weight movement, why not just go light and up the volume or something?  Seems like the reason your supporting muscles would be that exhausted in the first place is from doing a heavy free weight movement.

I've always liked a "less is more" approach to training, but I'm not a competitive bodybuilder either.  Still, I think if you've done a heavy compound exercise and exhausted yourself to the point that you don't think it's safe to continue more heavy free weight exercises, you've done enough to stimulate growth.


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## Merkaba (Sep 5, 2010)

gtbmed said:


> If your supporting muscles are so exhausted that it's not safe to go heavy with a free weight movement, why not just go light and up the volume or something?  Seems like the reason your supporting muscles would be that exhausted in the first place is from doing a heavy free weight movement.
> 
> I've always liked a "less is more" approach to training, but I'm not a competitive bodybuilder either.  Still, I think if you've done a heavy compound exercise and exhausted yourself to the point that you don't think it's safe to continue more heavy free weight exercises, you've done enough to stimulate growth.



I agree.  Lighten the weight.  Guys need to keep the weight as high as possible though.  We're guys right?  

If its not safe to do free weights it would be unsafe to use a machine in my opinion.  that's my opinion.  

Don't get me wrong I use machines. I mean I do lat pulls, rows, various cable deals etc.


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## christo67 (Aug 7, 2012)

many things i have been seeing the bar is only 15 pounds,,I like the smith also especially for presses


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## christo67 (Aug 7, 2012)

wow. your math is impressive,,I like smith machines,,,,and Im a health science major who is 44 and lifting since I was 13


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## Merkaba (Aug 7, 2012)

Smith Machine sucks...next question....


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## pjreiff (Aug 8, 2012)

Interesting information on Smith versus free weight.  I've been using the Smith for decline presses over the last 8 weeks to train around an injury.  Plan to be back on free weight bench presses within the next couple weeks so will be interested to see if I've lost/gained anything on my bench.  Also been using the Smith for hack squats since my gym doesn't have a hack squat machine.


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