# Help - Super Hard Gainer With Chicken Legs!



## Gettin'old (Jan 6, 2003)

HI All. This is my first post here. One of your good members recruited me from another board and I thought I'd check in with Y'all.

Here's my problem. I have been lifting for quite a while and have a serious set of laughable chicken legs. It's not my fault damnit, I'm willin' to do the work. Here's the thing. My knees do not stay in "their groove" when I'm doing bending movements. Therefore, I can't do the mass builders like squats and presses without great pain that ends the routine.

The problem is two-fold. First, I have week quads and they don't sufficiently "pull" on my knee caps, keeping them in place during the motion.

Second, my I-T Band, that group of muscles that attaches at the kneee and runs up to the hip, is SUPER TIGHT. This results, again, in the knee being pulled out of its groove when I bend. This is a bane of my existence.

Now, I am, and have tried for some time, to remedy this problem by building up my quads with tons and tons of leg extensions. And, I've tried to deal with the tight I-T bands by doing lots of stretching. The thing is, I'm a hard gainer and my legs just won't put on any mass. This seems to be the case with the quads too. Also, I need to stretch every day for almost an hour to loosen the damn legs up enough to do squats and I just don't have the time to do that in addition to work, wife, kid, lifting etc.

I'm still trying to remedy the knee problem so I can just get some average normal legs! 

Any advice is appreciated. If I need to elaborate on any of these points let me know.

Thanks much.


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## Gettin'old (Jan 6, 2003)

One other thing: my underlying leg strength is really wild. Chicken legs pressing large (when the knees cooperate). 

Now, I know that overtraining is a  major hindrance to growth. But, everything is individually tailored and I find I just don't grow unless I do a lot of sets. 

One thing I find strange with the legs is that I can do a S***load of sets and not even be sore the next day. Am I missing something here?


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## Scotty the Body (Jan 6, 2003)

Hi Gettin'old, welcome to IM!  
How long have you been lifting? Whats your weight and body fat like? And just how old are you? 

I've got legs that don't have much flexibility as well and my knees make alot of noise to so I know where your coming from.


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## P-funk (Jan 6, 2003)

You say you have small chicken legs.
You say you can do tons of sets for legs and not get sore.
You say that find your legs don't grow unless you do a lot of sets.
hmmmm?
So you do a lot of sets and you still have chicken legs.
hmmmm?
how can you find that you legs don't grow unless you do a lot of sets if you are doing a lot of sets and your legs aren't growing?


Maybe you are overtraining a little??


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## Gettin'old (Jan 6, 2003)

Hey Scotty.

I'll be 34 on January 26th. With life in the fastlane it sure feels a lot older sometimes. Er. .. maybe it's just all the superpumped younguns gettin' all the looks from the women now - - Doh!

I started lifting when I was 16 and have lifted on and off ever since. Unfortunately, I neglected legs bad when I was young b/c I was so damn thin all over I just really wanted to get some upper bod going.

I took a year off after my son was born and have been back at it for about 2 months now. I've decided, come hell or high water, I am going to build some damn legs this time. I've got access to a great gym, have a pile of supps, know nutrition very well, utilize good form, and generally know my own body. This knee thing is just killin' my QUEST for some legs.

Did I miss anything there. Oh yea, I'm 185 lbs (all upper body, so look decent sized up top) without too much fat, but not sure exactly how much. I'd guess 12-13%.

Enclosed below is a post I just discovered here by one of your longterm members. It would suggest I should be able to do squats:



For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, there are many sports physiologist types who divide exercises into closed kinetic chain (CKC) and open kinetic chain (OKC) categories. I can never keep the two straight myself, but basically an OKC exercise is one where the body is in a fixed position and the extremities are free to move, while in CKC exercises the extremities are fixed and the body moves.

If that sounded complicated, just remember that things like squats are CKC - the feet are planted on the floor, and you move your body. Leg extensions are OKC - the body is fixed, and the feet move. So far so good, eh? Oh, one other thing - leg presses are OKC, not CKC, as Sandeep says (just to clarify for everybody.) In leg presses your feet move, your body stays in the same place. Unless you do your leg presses weird.

Now this distinction appears pointless - I mean, great, now we have a category, but if it doesn't pan out into some property of the exercises that has relevance, it's pretty useless. I mean, if there were no other properties common to all OKC or CKC exercises, then nobody would ever talk about whether or not things are OKC or CKC. The neat thing is that many people claim that OKC movements are more dangerous to the body than are CKC. There are basically two reasons for this, and both are most easily described if we talk about squats vs. leg extensions.

The first reason has to do with shear vs. compression forces. Bones are much better at handling compression forces - forces whose vector lies along the bone. They're designed to be squeezed this way. Shear forces - those perpendicular to the bone - are more potentially harmful.

Now in a squat, there are more compression forces than shear forces at work. I mean, when you're in the upright position in the squat, your legs, knees, etc. are being squeezed - the weight presses down, along the line of the bones.

Now imagine a leg extension. In the contracted position, with legs straight, the force is all perpendicular to the leg. You can just see that this puts tremendous shear forces on the knee and all the leg bones. The force is not in line with the leg - the force the leg is designed to take (so you can stand) - but is instead perpendicular to it.

The second so-called danger of OKC movements is tracking problems. When you squat, your hamstring works along with your quads. Since the hamstrings are partially responsible for patella tracking (keeping your knee cap in the right place) your knee will be more stable than when you do, say, leg extensions. In leg extensions the hamstring is more or less relaxed - it won't help knee stability.


..............


Second, we would hope that all CKC movements share some property which is both important and not the property of being CKC. In other words, if all we can say about all CKC movements is that they are CKC movements, then the distinction isn't really worthwhile. If, however, all CKC movements, for example, introduced low shearing forces in the joints, and all OKC movements had high shearing forces, then it would be a worthwhile distinction. We could test an exercise to see if it's OKC or CKC and deduce from that whether it involves shear forces or not. Ditto for the tracking issue.

I'll rephrase one more time (just to be anal). The CKC - OKC distinction is only worthwhile if it correlates with some other property that is relevant to safety or training in some way.

So, how do we test whether or not CKC - OKC correlates with some important property? Well, at first glance it may seem to. I mean, leg extensions do involve high shear forces and poor tracking, and it is a OKC movement. Squats are CKC, with low shear forces and good tracking.


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## Scotty the Body (Jan 6, 2003)

I'm thinking your problem may be what P-funk said, to many sets. 
What does your routine look like now? Exercises sets and reps? 

My legs have responded well to low sets and reps with high weight while others find just the opposite, if one way isn't working then switch things up. 
As far as being a hard gainer, for me, cutting out all cardio did the trick.


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## Gettin'old (Jan 7, 2003)

Well, since my legs are so tight I end up doing several front end sets of curls and extensions at low weight just to warm up (in addition to 5 minutes on the bike first). Then I do about 3-4 sets of heavy (for me anyway) curls and extensions and 4-6 sets of squats.


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## Scotty the Body (Jan 7, 2003)

Try doing the squats FIRST after you've warmed up. 
Then the extensions and then the curls. 

Your legs should be shaking and you should feel like puking after your leg workout, if you don't, then you haven't worked hard enough.


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## Gettin'old (Jan 7, 2003)

That is what I used to do and it didn't work. I'm finding that by doing the extensions and curls first my legs are better warmed up for the squats. I know the feeling you're reffering to, with the shaky legs. Do you do really high reps to get that feeling or do you move quickly from one set or one exercise to the next to get that?


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## Scotty the Body (Jan 7, 2003)

No, my rest periods are around 1.5 to 2 min between sets. 
I use a three week split so one week I'm doing reps around 8 then the next week around 4-6 Heavy weight and then the third week is super sets with reps around 8. 

I sounds like your on the right track, are you tall? Its hard for us that have long legs to get really beefy but for someone like Prince thats only like 4 feet, he was born with big legs.


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## Gettin'old (Jan 7, 2003)

Interesting. That is about how long I rest in-between sets as well. I have a very average build. I'm 5' 11" and last night weighed in at 189 (this is a bit heavy for me and I think it may be from my first time use of Swole!). 

I would like to get that super worked out feeling on the legs but don't get it every workout.


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## P-funk (Jan 7, 2003)

STB has a good point, varying your rep range from week to week can really lead to great gains.  
It really sucks trying to get big legs if your are so tall.  (5'11" seems big to me).
Luckily for me, 5'5", it isn't to hard to get my legs to blow up.
Just keep at it.


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## Gettin'old (Jan 7, 2003)

*It's in the Knees*

I appreciate the input and encouragement. Again though, the real problem for me is in the knees. If I could solve this problem I could really blast hard and get the gains I DESERVE, heh, heh.

thanks.


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## Twin Peak (Jan 7, 2003)

Hey Old, and welcome over!  I think you'll enjoy it here!

Anyway, if you really want to grow them tharn legs you need to figure out how to do SOME (at least 1) of the mass building exercises.

You are doing right by trying to figure out squats.   Get these down.  Personally, when my knees are acting up the only way I can squat is by doing a bunch of extensions first, which pumps and lubricated the knee.  STRETCH between those sets for better flexibility (and between the squats too).  

When you get to squats start light and work your way up.  Only go down as far as your knees will allow, but continue to try and go deeper as your flexibility (keep stretching between sets) improves over time.

As an alternative try front squats.  I am able to go deeper in the whole with these and you don't need (can't use) as much weight.  These are killer.

Try hack squats on a machine, those tend to bother my knees less as well.  Keep trying.

Once you figure out what/how you can do it, I'd recommend focusing on the legs.

Lift thrice per week and hit them wheels twice.  Do the whole upper body on the other day.  Do that for about a month or two, or until you feel you are overtraining your legs.  Then take a week off entirely and drop back to once per week and split the upper body up at that point.

Also:

- train legs after an off day.
- eat plenty of carbs the day before
- eat plenty of carbs and whey immediately after
- limit cardio, particularly the day before, day of, and day after
- focus on them when you hit your PH cycles

Again, welcome aboard bro!


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## Scotty the Body (Jan 7, 2003)

Good advice Twin.


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## Gettin'old (Jan 7, 2003)

*Hey Twin Peak*

Hey Twin Peak: I think it was  you who  originally recruited me to this board!

___________________________________________________
You wrote: You are doing right by trying to figure out squats. Get these down. Personally, when my knees are acting up the only way I can squat is by doing a bunch of extensions first, which pumps and lubricated the knee. STRETCH between those sets for better flexibility (and between the squats too). 

When you get to squats start light and work your way up. Only go down as far as your knees will allow, but continue to try and go deeper as your flexibility (keep stretching between sets) improves over time.
___________________________________________________

This is exactly my current regimen and the one I have found most succussful so far. Also, I like your suggestion about the front squats and will implement that immediately. On that, I have a question. When I do squats, I do them on a smith machine (I like the support and it lets me put my feet really far forward so that my knees do not extend over my feet when I squat, and thereby, aggravate the knees). I'm wondering, will I be able to move my feet forward like this with the bar in front of me. Also, have you ever done these front squats on a smith machine?

Unfortunately, my gym doesn't have a hack squat machine. Can you believe that! Otherwise the place is fantastic.

The other major question I had was about focusing on the legs and how much I should train them. When I last took a good run at them I would obliterate them and than wait about a week to hit them again. Lately, I've  been feeling like I should hit them more often. I'm going to take your suggestion on this and put my legs ahead of all the other body parts and really focus on hitting them more often.

Quality advice. Thanks.


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## Twin Peak (Jan 7, 2003)

Twas I, I think. 

Ugg, the smith machine.  I hate it.  Never use it, never.  P.S.  A squat on a smith machine is not a squat, and you shouldn't refer to it as such.  It is a Smith Squat.  Stay away, unless its the only way you can squat.

I honestly don't know if you can do front squats, probably not.

I normally train legs (and each BP) once per week.  I recommended twice for you since (i) you haven't been gaining, (ii) you said you need high volume to see results, and (iii) you haven't been getting sore which indicated you are not overtraining.  But keep a watch on the overtraining symptoms and cut back WHEN (notice I did not say IF) it becomes necessary.


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## Gettin'old (Jan 7, 2003)

Maybe I'll go back to giving ACTUAL squats another whirl, particularly to see if I can do them in front. The Smith gives me some measure of safety though and lets me plow forward with this knee condition. 

Some day . . .  REAL SQUATS . . . AND HEAVY DAMN IT!!


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## Gettin'old (Jan 9, 2003)

*Hit em' good yesterday*

I hit legs nicely last night and had good cooperation from my knees. I'm going to follow Twin's advice and hit them every four days. I've just started taking glucosamine and I'm wondering if it is helping at all (relatively pain free yesterday). 

Has anyone tried glucosamine (I'll post this in supps too).


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## Twin Peak (Jan 9, 2003)

I regularly use it (and condroitan, and msm).

I find my joints feel better after 5-7 days.


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## Gettin'old (Jan 9, 2003)

what is msm?


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## Bear (Jan 9, 2003)

*Interesting thread.*

I find pre-exhaustion big supersets work wonders for me.

Here's a couple that come to mind when I think of quads.

First one is:

leg press/leg extension/squat

Second would be:

a drop set of leg extensions,
immediately followed by a drop set of squats

Everything is done to failure.

1 set is all I need to grow, but I guess you could torcher yourself with 2 or 3 if you feel the need to.

Good luck!


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## Gettin'old (Jan 23, 2003)

Hi Y'all. Here's an update on my chicken legs progress. I've been hittem' em hard for about a month now and have had some encouraging workouts without a lot of knee pain. I've been doing lots of extensions and leg curls to pre-exhaust and get the legs all warmed up and loosened up and it seems to be working. I've been ending with a few sets of leg presses and squats. Surprisingly, I'm not getting that sore. I've been doing about 4 sets of presses and squats after the curls and extensions. I'm prioritizing the chicken legs over all other body parts and work them after every 3 days of rest.
Should I increase the number of sets?


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## Twin Peak (Jan 23, 2003)

If you are progressing every, or most, workouts, than it sounds like you are doing fine.


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## Gettin'old (Jan 23, 2003)

I feel like I'm getting progress in the following regards: 1) My strength is increasing very fast and very dramatically on all my exercises; 2) my knees are not being a big problem (this is subject to change at any time for any reason, or for no apparent reason at all) (I had one 3 day period when standing up out of my seat caused excruciating knee pain).

I haven't seen any serious size gains yet but think that is natural as I've only been back to blasting the legs for about 5 weeks. Hopefully, the size gains will start to become noticeable within the next two months. 

I feel like emphasizing the legs over everything else and hitting them every four days is really going to make the difference. 

It seems the knee problem may be more closely related to very tight hamstrings than I initially thought. Warming those puppies up substantially before hitting the power movements seems to help. Still wary of the knees though.

If Y'all would recommend just one "encyclopedia" type book of bodybuilding, what book would you recommend?


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## Twin Peak (Jan 23, 2003)

Sounds like you are doing well.  For me, strength gains come first, then after they level off comes hypertrophy, usually.  But only if you are feeding the muscles enough protein.

Are you on PHs yet?

Encylcopedia for what purpose?


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## Gettin'old (Jan 23, 2003)

I'm trying to get enough protein but I'm not sure that I am. In addition to my meals I've been eating a protein bar or two at work. In the mid-evening, my meal consists of cereal for fiber (which I need, believe you me!) with soy milk followed by a monster bowl of yogurt (for the acidophilos). I get some protein there but probably not enough. Same at breakfast. At mid-morning I have a bar. At lunch and dinner I get good protein. I've been thinking about getting a serious MRP. I've got some NLarge 2, but don't like it that much b/c it has too much sugar. 

I have 2 bottles of Noraderm and 4aderm in my fridge but don't plan on using them for about 3 more months. I want to get closer to my lifting peaks and barriers before I make my first foray into the, hopefully wonderful world, of PHs.

Regarding the encyclopedia, I wanted to get one to remind me of exercises that I've been overlooking but that may be helpful. For example, I recently saw someone doing one arm reverse tricep cables and gave them a try and really liked them. I'm wondering how many other exercises are out there I may be missing out on. I would also like the book for abs instruction and for general motivational purposes. Listening to Arnold in his books for example can really get you motivated.

Thanks Twin!!


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## Twin Peak (Jan 23, 2003)

Arnold's encyclopedia is a fun read, but outdated.  Otherwise, I'd just do some internet research.


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Arnold's encyclopedia is a fun read, but outdated.



I own and read it, it's a good read and has some good info, but you have to know which info is good and which is outdated, so I probably would not recommend it to a beginner.

the main problem (that I remember, it's been a few years) is the routines are high volume which would probably only work for a juicer.


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