# Mike Boyle on...



## P-funk (Feb 8, 2006)

..trunk rotation during stretching and dynamic warm ups.

A Close Look at Rotation Training
by Mike Boyle (FunctionalStrengthCoach.com)

Over the past decade training has clearly moved from a sagittal plane orientation to an emphasis on unilateral training and multi-planar training. Part of this process, particularly for athletes, has been a push toward developing flexibility in rotation. Any athlete competing in a sport that required rotation, like baseball, hockey or golf, was blindly urged to develop more flexibility in rotation. Like many performance coaches, I fell victim to this same flawed concept. I was one of the lemmings that I dislike so much, blindly following the recommendations of others and using exercises that I would now consider questionable or dangerous. Interestingly enough, as a back pain sufferer, I simply wrote off my discomfort as age-related and continued to perform rotary stretches and dynamic warm-up exercises.

Reading the work of physical therapist Shirley Sahrmann made me reconsider my position and eventually eliminate a whole group of stretches and dynamic warm-up exercises that were once staples of our programs. Sahrmann in her book Diagnosis and Treatment of Movement Impairment Syndromes, states &#147;during most daily activities, the primary role of the abdominal muscles is to provide isometric support and limit the degree of rotation of the trunk&#133;A large percentage of low back problems occur because the abdominal muscles are not maintaining tight control over the rotation between the pelvis and the spine at the L5- S1 level. &#147; (2002 p.71) The lumbar range of motion that many personal trainers and coaches have attempted to create may not even be desirable and is probably potentially injurious.

The ability to resist or to prevent rotation may in fact be more important than the ability to create it. Clients or athletes must be able to prevent rotation before we should allow them to produce it. Porterfield and DeRosa in another excellent book, Mechanical Low Back Pain, come to the same conclusion as Sahrmann. Porterfield and DeRosa state &#147;Rather than considering the abdominals as flexors and rotators of the trunk- for which they certainly have the capacity- their function might be better viewed as antirotators and antilateral flexors of the trunk.&#148; (Porterfield and Derosa, WB Saunders 1998, p99)

Sahrmann goes on to note a key fact that I believe has been overlooked in the performance field. &#147;The overall range of lumbar rotation is ...approx 13 degrees. The rotation between each segment from T10 to L5 is 2 degrees. The greatest rotational range is between L5 and S1, which is 5 degrees&#133;The thoracic spine, not the lumbar spine should be the site of greatest amount of rotation of the trunk&#133; when an individual practices rotational exercises, he or she should be instructed to &#147;think about the motion occurring in the area of the chest&#148; &#147; (Sahrmann, p61-62)

Sahrmann places the final icing on the cake with these statements; &#147;Rotation of the lumbar spine is more dangerous than beneficial and rotation of the pelvis and lower extremities to one side while the trunk remains stable or is rotated to the other side is particularly dangerous.&#148; (see figures 1+2) (Sahrmann p. 72)

Interestingly enough Sahrmann agrees with the conclusions of Barry Ross. Ross recommended primarily isometric abdominal training for his sprinters. Sahrmann concurs; &#147;During most activities, the primary role of the abdominal muscles is to provide isometric support and limit the degree of rotation of the trunk which, as discussed, is limited in the lumbar spine.&#148; (Sahrmann p 70)

Most importantly, what does all this mean? For me it means that I have eliminated the following stretches that attempt to increase lumbar range of motion. This includes Seated Trunk Rotational Stretches (Fig 1) and Lying Trunk Rotational Stretches (Fig 2).







I have also eliminated dynamic exercises designed to increase trunk range of motion such as Dynamic Bent Leg Trunk Twists (Fig 3), Dynamic Straight Leg Truck Twist (Fig 4), and Scorpion (Fig 5).






My conclusion. Most people don&#146;t need additional trunk range of motion. The evidence from the experts seems to be clear that what we really need is to be able to control the range that we have. Although this may seem extreme to some, I have seen a significant decrease in the complaints of low back pain since eliminating these exercises. In fact, a great deal of our emphasis is now placed on developing hip range of motion in both internal and external rotation. I think the future will see coaches working on core stability and hip mobility instead of working against themselves by simultaneously trying to develop core range of motion and core stability.

Porterfield and DeRosa- Mechanical Low Back Pain, WB Saunders 1998,

Sahrmann, Diagnosis and Treatment of Movement Impairment Syndromes, Mosby 2002

Michael Boyle is one of the most respected professional strength coach's in the world. Check out his revolutionary Functional Strength Coach 10-DVD Series here


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## Dale Mabry (Feb 8, 2006)

I do rotational dynamic movements, but I do them to warm up, specifically for tennis.  I don't know many that do dynamic rotational work to increase range of rotational motion.


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## P-funk (Feb 8, 2006)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> I do rotational dynamic movements, but I do them to warm up, specifically for tennis.  I don't know many that do dynamic rotational work to increase range of rotational motion.




that is what he is talking about.  he is now saying that they are dangerous.  he talks about something like working to strength the ab/aductor muscles to get that rotational power rather then the abdominals.  I will ask him when I see him give a clinic on sunday.


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## Dale Mabry (Feb 8, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> that is what he is talking about.  he is now saying that they are dangerous.  he talks about something like working to strength the ab/aductor muscles to get that rotational power rather then the abdominals.  I will ask him when I see him give a clinic on sunday.



Do that.  I actually only do elbow to knee running for my warm up, but I have done the scorpions before and have never had an issue, but I can touch my hand with my foot without lifting my shoulder, so I am pretty flexible.

Ask him if he has any source or where he came about it.

Tell him also that topolo thought he looked sexy in his linear speed video.

Is this for ceu's?


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## P-funk (Feb 8, 2006)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> Do that.  I actually only do elbow to knee running for my warm up, but I have done the scorpions before and have never had an issue, but I can touch my hand with my foot without lifting my shoulder, so I am pretty flexible.
> 
> Ask him if he has any source or where he came about it.
> 
> ...




yea, it is for CEUs.

want to come into the city and see?  I think it is like $125 but he is talking for like 6hrs so it is worth it.


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## shiznit2169 (Feb 8, 2006)

So anything that involves the ab/adductor muscles and hip rotation such as Squats, Deads, and SLDL's, if dynamic stretching is dangerous for warming up how should one go about warming up the right way?


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## Dale Mabry (Feb 8, 2006)

I do like how he points out the abs are stabilizers moreso than movers.  I don't remember the last time I did crunches or an ab "movement".


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## Dale Mabry (Feb 8, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> yea, it is for CEUs.
> 
> want to come into the city and see?  I think it is like $125 but he is talking for like 6hrs so it is worth it.



What time Sunday?


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## P-funk (Feb 8, 2006)

shiznit2169 said:
			
		

> So anything that involves the ab/adductor muscles and hip rotation such as Squats, Deads, and SLDL's, if dynamic stretching is dangerous for warming up how should one go about warming up the right way?




what do you mean squats, deads SLDLs?

You can warm up with any other mobility type work.  he just said that he took those 4 warm ups out of his program.  You can use...inch worms, straight leg marches, inverted hamstring, butt kicks, high knees, walking knee hugs, etc..


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## P-funk (Feb 8, 2006)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> What time Sunday?




I think it starts at 9.


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## shiznit2169 (Feb 8, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> what do you mean squats, deads SLDLs?
> 
> You can warm up with any other mobility type work.  he just said that he took those 4 warm ups out of his program.  You can use...inch worms, straight leg marches, inverted hamstring, butt kicks, high knees, walking knee hugs, etc..



I know he was talking about athletes specifically but i was referring to people who warmup before doing heavy sets for those compound movements involving the parts he was talking about.


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## P-funk (Feb 8, 2006)

shiznit2169 said:
			
		

> I know he was talking about athletes specifically but i was referring to people who warmup before doing heavy sets for those compound movements involving the parts he was talking about.




I warm up with mobility stuff even if I am just going to do squats.


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## Dale Mabry (Feb 8, 2006)

He means isolation warm ups, similar to the ones that are in the pics.  I prefer warm ups with similar movements you are going to do, so compound are fine.


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## DOMS (Feb 8, 2006)

Would it make sense then to do weighted torso twists in a 5º to 13º range? In a slow and controlled manner of course.


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## P-funk (Feb 8, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Would it make sense then to do weighted torso twists in a 5º to 13º range? In a slow and controlled manner of course.




not according to this article since your torso is moving one directio and your hips are moving another.

I will ask him on sunday and follow up.


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## Squaggleboggin (Feb 8, 2006)

This is some good stuff. So exactly how would one go about isometrically training the abs as it pertains to 'antirotation?' Go near a doorway and isometrically rotate against it perhaps?


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## DOMS (Feb 8, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> not according to this article since your torso is moving one directio and your hips are moving another.
> 
> I will ask him on sunday and follow up.



Thanks.


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## P-funk (Feb 8, 2006)

Squaggleboggin said:
			
		

> This is some good stuff. So exactly how would one go about isometrically training the abs as it pertains to 'antirotation?' Go near a doorway and isometrically rotate against it perhaps?




planks.

you could still do crunches and sit ups he is just saying he doesn't like any sort of rotational movement.

ofcourse your abs will get the most isometric/stabalization work when your are training (especially on things like squats and deads or putting weight over your head when you are standing up).


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## CowPimp (Feb 8, 2006)

I will have to look into this more.  From what I understand, there is a lot of core musculature that is involved in rotational movements that is best stimulated in that type of movement.


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## Dale Mabry (Feb 8, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Would it make sense then to do weighted torso twists in a 5º to 13º range? In a slow and controlled manner of course.




What he is saying is that you should be able to stabilize before you create movement because if you are creating movement and lack the ability to stabilize, you will hurt yourself.  I think the stretches were just an adjunct to the article.  If you loosen your abdominals through rotational flexibility, they will not be able to stabilize.

So, a natural progression for abdominals would be prone bridge, static hold w/ legs at 6 inches, etc.  Then, once you are very strong at stabilizing, you can work movement.  Most people jump right into crunches.

As for isometric holds for the obliques, one would be to stand in the middle of the cable apparatus, grab a one-handle cable handle with both hands at shoulder level, then hold it directly in front of you, preventing it from pulling you to that side.  Then just switch sides.

A more functional movement that I do is to do a unilateral dumbbell flye, having the working side completely off the bench from the spine over.  So basically you would perform a flye with your left arm, and only the right side of your body on the bench, the left side is hanging off of the bench, being stabilized by nearly every trunk muscle with only your left foot on the ground as support.  Give it a try and see what I mean.  You could just hold it there, but I like stabilizing while doing the flye, it is much more difficult.


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## CowPimp (Feb 8, 2006)

I still don't see why you wouldn't train that function if it pertains to your sport.  Think boxing, wrestling/grappling, and martial arts.  All of these require either throwing punches or being involved in all kinds of akward positions that call on rotation of the trunk.  It seems silly to me not to train that type of movement isotonically before putting yourself in the ring where you will need to apply it...

Hell, I am pretty much against round back lifts.  Nonetheless, I think it's a must if you plan on competing in a strongman competition for example.  You're going to look pretty stupid going into a competition when you have to pick up a heavy stone off the ground but you've never performed a lift with a round back!


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## P-funk (Feb 9, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> I still don't see why you wouldn't train that function if it pertains to your sport.  Think boxing, wrestling/grappling, and martial arts.  All of these require either throwing punches or being involved in all kinds of akward positions that call on rotation of the trunk.  It seems silly to me not to train that type of movement isotonically before putting yourself in the ring where you will need to apply it...




if you look at a boxer or even a baseball player when he swings a bat, although they are rotating with their torso, look at the lower body.  They still open up thier hips a little bit to make the move.  I have never seen a baseball player swing at a pitch while keeping his complete stable.  They all break at the hip at some point during the swing.




> Hell, I am pretty much against round back lifts.  Nonetheless, I think it's a must if you plan on competing in a strongman competition for example.  You're going to look pretty stupid going into a competition when you have to pick up a heavy stone off the ground but you've never performed a lift with a round back!



while some guys do the round back lifts I have seen other that say you should "deadlift with perfect form all the time and when it comes time to lift the stones just lift them.  deadlifts are specific to working stones.  stones are specific to stones."


anyway, I plan on asking him about it.


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## CowPimp (Feb 9, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> if you look at a boxer or even a baseball player when he swings a bat, although they are rotating with their torso, look at the lower body.  They still open up thier hips a little bit to make the move.  I have never seen a baseball player swing at a pitch while keeping his complete stable.  They all break at the hip at some point during the swing.



Well yeah, there is some break at the hips; you kind of have to for full utilization of the power being transferred from your lower body.  There should still be some rotation of the lumbar spine though, no?  Maybe within the limits that the author of that article suggested was okay?




> while some guys do the round back lifts I have seen other that say you should "deadlift with perfect form all the time and when it comes time to lift the stones just lift them.  deadlifts are specific to working stones.  stones are specific to stones."



Yeah, I mean everyone has their own philosophies on this stuff.  It seems to me like you should try to mimic your competition movements as closely as possible, even with accessory movements, but I see your point.




> anyway, I plan on asking him about it.



Definitely report back with your findings.


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## devildog88 (Feb 9, 2006)

Great Read, Thanks.


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## DOMS (Feb 11, 2006)

P-funk, did you even get the answer for that question?


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## P-funk (Feb 11, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> P-funk, did you even get the answer for that question?




the lecture is tomorrow.  a freind of mine and I are putting together our arguments for him and try so we don't go in there without thinking about.  Will report back tomorrow night.


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## P-funk (Feb 12, 2006)

Just got back from the lecture.....8hrs worth!!!  Man, it was good though.  he really opened my eyes to a lot of stuff and made me a little smarter.  If anyone every gets a chance to see him speak.....DO IT!!


Anyway, on to the question.  he started the lecture by stating that he is not here to argue with anyone.  These are his opinions and they might not be in line with your opinions.  Nothing you will say is going to make him change his mind.  He didn't want to spend time arguing about things and he said it is okay if you walk away pissed off.  When we got to the topic of trunk rotations as stretching he put up some pretty good arguments.  he even showed so exercises that were accetpable but they all included some sort of movement from the hip so that the lumbar was more of a "stabalizer" (which is its main funtion) then a mover or a creater of force or power.  Well, some of us still weren't convinced so we tracked him down on one of the breaks to pry a little further.  I gotta admit.  He was ready and he knew his shit!  We would bring up different sports and he would break down the biomechanics of each and show up how the movement comes from the hips and the thoracic spine but not the lumbar spine.  I would say things like "what about increasing flexability if we are strengthening also.....then it isn't so bad."  and he really dropped the hammer on us then with his reply......."Look guys, I am not trying to argue with you or change your mind.  You can go and do whatever it is you want to do and it doesn't matter.  It wont affect me.  I am simply giving my opinions on the topic based on the things I have read and the research I have done.  Don't get mad at me because I read a book.  I am only implying that I once thought this was the proper way to do things and now I have come around to realize there is a better way.  A safer way.  It is like you can see the light.  You know in your head that you argree with what I am saying BUT you want to validate what you are doing or have been doing by trying to find someone to keep on doing it (ie stretchign and strengthing).  I have done the same things.  At some point you have to realize....this is not how things should be done."  Damn,....no argument.  I got nothing.  His beliefs were solid.  He stood his ground and he made me realize what he was saying and I agree.


he also talked about things like:

Quad sets and tri-sets and not wasting time in the workout.
stretching BEFORE training and doing mobility work DURING the workout.
Lots of other stuff.  My head is swiming with ideas.  he talked about a lot of mobility stuff too.  A lot of what he was saying was made sense.  It was a great lecture.


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## shiznit2169 (Feb 12, 2006)

> Quad sets and tri-sets and not wasting time in the workout.
> stretching BEFORE training and doing mobility work DURING the workout.



If you have time, could you please tell us what he said about these two? I am interested in what he had to say about it.


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## CowPimp (Feb 12, 2006)

Good stuff P.  I don't have the knowledge to argue with him really.  However, I do know that a lot of other strength coaches do utilize the movements, and I would like to see their arguments on the subject.  Maybe we could convince T-Nation to have a roundtable discussion on the subject.  Those are usually pretty kickass.


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## DOMS (Feb 12, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Maybe we could convince T-Nation to have a roundtable discussion on the subject.  Those are usually pretty kickass.


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## P-funk (Feb 12, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Good stuff P.  I don't have the knowledge to argue with him really.  However, I do know that a lot of other strength coaches do utilize the movements, and I would like to see their arguments on the subject.  Maybe we could convince T-Nation to have a roundtable discussion on the subject.  Those are usually pretty kickass.






			
				CowPimp said:
			
		

> Good stuff P.  I don't have the knowledge to argue with him really.  However, I do know that a lot of other strength coaches do utilize the movements, and I would like to see their arguments on the subject.  Maybe we could convince T-Nation to have a roundtable discussion on the subject.  Those are usually pretty kickass.




he is pretty into Thibedeau and Cosgrove, speaking about the t-nation crowd.
everyone has their own way of doing things and you can see a lot of parallels between him and cosgrove at times.  espcially with the undulating periodization.




> If you have time, could you please tell us what he said about these two? I am interested in what he had to say about it.



Sure man.  that is what i am hear for.  to spread the word on new and interesting training ideas.....

Quad sets....Here is what he had to say.  I will paraphrase from my notes:

Why waste time in the workout with rest?  Why sit there?  I want my athletes to get the biggest bang for their buck.  We have an hour to get in everything we need to do so I want to use all of that hour and get the most density I can.  His set up for a program is this:

pre-warm up
a) tissue density- foam roll
b) tissue length- stretch

mobility

resistance training

The resistance training was broken into quad-set pairings.  His basic reasoning for this was that it makes the athlete work and do active rest, instead of just sitting around and wasting time.  He said unless you are a competitive powerlifter or olympic lifter then there is no reason to just sit around and rest when you can be training other muscles or using time more effeciently.  He would do one lower body movement, followed by an upper body movement, followed by a core execise and then by a dynamic stretch.  By the time you get back to the squat, it has been about 5min (typical rest period for strength work) and you are ready to go.  Your quads will be rested enough to complete the work needed and you accomplished more than just sitting around.  He does 2 quad sets per workout.....one goes hip dominant, upper press, core, dynamic stretch and then the  other would be quad dominant, upper pull, core, dynamic stretch.  And then you are done.  Workout is over.  You already did all your stretching and abs during the workout.  he also said he tests athletes strength every 3 weeks in the 1RM front squat, 1RM hang clean and 1RM bench press so that he can adjust his program which is a 12 week lay out.  During the program they never do bilateral leg work.  he said that he doesn't care if his athlete can squat 400lbs.  That doesn't have crossover to a sport where 99% of the time he is on one leg and needs to be strong.  So, he likes to keep it specific like that (can't argue with the results of his athletes either!!  Lots of Olympians and Boston Bruins and ofcourse college basketball and Pro basketball players).  As I said, the periodization is undulating using total body workouts....so day one might be 10RM, day two 5RM and day three 12RM.....or something to that effect.  he said the only things that don't get quad sets are power exercises because they are to dynamic and require to much technique so they get tri-sets.....it would be something like hang clean followed by two different dynamic stretches.  Power and strength are trained on the same day.


Okay, for the stretching pre-workout....again, paraphrased from my notes:

He said that in 25yrs he has never seen someone pull a muscle because they were stretching it cold.  He also said that even though people always say it will decrease force output, from a prehab standpoint it is a great idea.  When ever you go to physical therapy for an injury guess what the first thing they make you do is..."stretch this guy out.  strech his hams, his calves, etc..".  So, why wouldn't you do that all the time?  The important thing is to increase the muscles plasticity.  If the muscle is always stretched when it is warm then you are only allowing yourself to stretch that muscles fascia instead of sretching the collagen fibers.

It is funny though because when I think static stretches I think like 30sec holds.  He was only doing 1sec holds....and here is the kicker....they were what he calls "3D stretches".  He said that muscle fibers aren't completely in a straight line.  So, if you only stretch one way (say, the typical hamstring stretch) then you are only stretchign the fibers that one way....in this case the fibers running more sagital.  he then did this demonstration of the 3D stretches for the hams, piraformis and hip flexors with their 1sec holds and how you do them moving through all three planes (hence the name 3D).  So, are they really static stretches?  I gotta tell ya though....they felt fucking great!



hope that gives you guys something to think about.


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## Dale Mabry (Feb 12, 2006)

Did he allow anyone to have a dictaphone to record the seminar?


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## P-funk (Feb 12, 2006)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> Did he allow anyone to have a dictaphone to record the seminar?




people were recording the seminar.

he also videotaped it.


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## CowPimp (Feb 12, 2006)

It seems to me like his idea is that short duration stretching proceeded by dynamic flexibility movments prevents the potential downsides of stretching pre-workout?  Interesting layout for a workout.


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## P-funk (Feb 12, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> It seems to me like his idea is that short duration stretching proceeded by dynamic flexibility movments prevents the potential downsides of stretching pre-workout?  Interesting layout for a workout.




it is a great layout for a workout!  It is funny because a lot of his stuff was stuff that I had already been implementing in my workouts or my clients (aside from the quad sets which I never really used) and I had never really read much of his stuff.  I guess I just got a lot of it from reading a lot of other people that either influenced him or he himself had influenced.  For example....I start my workouts with foam rolling and mobility work as well, use similiar types of periodization.  I always though befor ethis lecture that he was all about something else.  Something that i wasn't really into.  I am glad to find out that I was in a greement with a lot of things he was saying.

Here is actually a funny story that surprised me when we went and did practical stuff today.  I have been really working on mobility and dynamic hip flexability.  For as long as I can remeber I have had a nasty posterior tilt when I squat below parallel.  I haven't seen myself squat from a side view in a mirror in probably a good 2 years so I just always figured that tild was still there and still ugly as hell.  Well, he had us do some mobility stuff for our hips that he calls quadraped rocking.  Where you get in a four point quadraped stance and rock back trying to touch your heels to your butt while maintaining neutral spine and perlvic positions.  Ofcourse he was right infront of me when I went to go do it so I was thinking..."here goes.  i make an ass out of myself whne I can't do this."  Well, I did it with perfect posture and ass almost to heels.  he was like, "that is good!  Now touch your butt to your  heels."  Well, to my surprise I watched in the mirror and I saw that I did it without that ugly tilt.  So I said "this doesn't make sense?  I have a terrible posterior tilt when I am in the bottom position though.  Let me show you."  I stood up....squated ATG and looked in the mirror and....I HAD NO TILT!  He was like "you can nail that bottom position.".  Amazing!!  All the mobility work had paid off and i didn't even know it!  lol


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## shiznit2169 (Feb 12, 2006)

what exactly do you mean by a "nasty tilt"


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## P-funk (Feb 12, 2006)

shiznit2169 said:
			
		

> what exactly do you mean by a "nasty tilt"




Do you know what a posterior pelvic tilt is?


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## shiznit2169 (Feb 12, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> Do you know what a posterior pelvic tilt is?



yes


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## P-funk (Feb 13, 2006)

shiznit2169 said:
			
		

> yes




okay.  So my posterior tilt was really really nasty.  It was just a bad tilt.


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