# Cheat Meal



## Rocco32 (Aug 3, 2003)

I'm trying to put on muscle and lose BF. Some very helpful members of this forum have really helped me reevaluate my diet. Something I did not bring up however is Cheat meals. I read that you should have cheat meals to keep sanity and keep your body guessing and happy. What is the boundaries around cheat meals, how often, how much, food quality, etc... For my regular meals I've been advised to completely cut out sugar to reduce BF. Will cheat meals hurt or help me.


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## Fit Freak (Aug 3, 2003)

IMO...they help but only when done infrequently (max is 1 per week) and you keep it within reason.

For example I usually go out to a favorite restaurant and have soup. pasta, and a dessert.  No more...otherwise it constitutes more of a binge than a cheat meal...other times I'll have a 12" sub from Subway if I'm looking more for a sanity check versus a  cheat.

Others may feel differently...what works for one doesn't work for all...try it out and make up your own mind from experience.


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 3, 2003)

I agree with Fit Freak.  Its ok within reason.  I was doing it once a week.  But I have now pushed it to 1 time every two weeks.  Unfortuantley on a couple of those cheat days I got a little too happy and cheat meals ended up turning into binges.  But of course I bounce back easily.  Treat yourself once a week.


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## Par Deus (Aug 5, 2003)

You guys might want to look into leptin and refeeds -- I have written pretty extensively on the topic.

Here is a summary article:

http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?issueID=3&pageID=51

That was written 1.5 years ago, so I will add a little addendum from an upcoming article that will be in IronMan:

"Supplementation
Despite its effectiveness, the refeed is still not the ideal approach, as even if you do it perfectly, you are still halting fat loss while overeating, and for many, it is ends up far worse than this. Without the workout, the excess calories are likely to spill over into fat, and many people just lose it once they start eating, and end up on a 2 day binge of sugar and fat and undo days and days of discipline and progress. 

IMO, it tends to promote binge behaviors, in general, if one is prone and not careful, which can carry over into drugs/alcohol, thrill seeking, sex, or whatever your ???poison??? may be. They all operate through the same reward and reinforcement pathways, and the initial increased sensitivity of reinforcement of such behaviors is well documented in the literature, in animals and humans. Combined with the fact that  your diet has increased receptor sensitivity to reward, in addition to reinforcement, you could be Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs (or half-way through a 30 pack and box of Marlboro Reds) before you know what hit you.

Thus, I recommend mitigating the extremes of this cycle by shooting for consistent repartitioning by dropping the overeating, and replacing the lost nutrient/???fed??? signaling with supplements, which also have the distinct advantage of having far fewer calories for the same degree of nutrient signaling (especially important as you get lean and need more refeeds)."


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## Fit Freak (Aug 5, 2003)

I'm sorry by there is a mental side of eating too.....and simply taking a supplement isn't going to do the trick.  I also like to schedule my cheats around social events.....BALANCE is important.  I'm not saying that a supplement isn't a gr8 approach (ie. if getting ready for a competition) but what I'm mainly referring to is a personal eating clean all year that needs some satisfaction now and again.


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## Par Deus (Aug 5, 2003)

Social events cannot be accounted for, obviously, though I would think it desirable to be satisfied with less "cheating", if that were an option.

Food and mood are very strongly tied in -- they cannot be separated.

The primary reason reward and reinforcment pathways (and vice-versa) evolved was to give positive feedback to the organism for seeking out and eating lots of calorie dense foods, so it would fatten itself for inevitable times of scarcity. 

The early feedback on LeptiGen has been very, very favorable, in regard to psychological aspects/cravings -- IOW, it takes care of the satisfaction side to a great extent.

And, it was certainly expected to do this, when I designed the formula.


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## Par Deus (Aug 5, 2003)

BTW, I still recommend refeeds, just less often than I used to, for the reasons stated.


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## DaMayor (Aug 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Par Deus *_
> BTW, I still recommend refeeds, just less often than I used to, for the reasons stated.



What sort of (re-feed) frequency are we talking about? 
(And, keep in mind that I'm not considering this as an option at present, since I'm knee-deep in the LeptiGen II right now)


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## Par Deus (Aug 5, 2003)

Like once every week or two, depending on how low leptin is (i.e. bodyfat, in relation to setpoint, as well as length and severity of diet)

Mostly to refill glycogen and because cereal is yummy.


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## Fit Freak (Aug 5, 2003)

I agree...the frequency of refeeds largely depends how strict your diet is as well as how low your BF% is.  Regardless I wouldn't reffed more than once per week....just MHO.


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## Skib (Aug 5, 2003)

i'm looking forward to 6-8 weeks from now when i can have my first REAL cheat meal... i don't take training TOO seriously, so therefore i don't take my diet overly serious either (i don't cheat if i don't have to but i mean, i'm going to a wedding this weekend and i know dinner will probably be something i shouldn't have but obviously i'm still going to eat it) ... i just started a cut and have been faithful to it so far and have no intentions on cheating until i see some serious results but once i see those results, i can't wait to sink my teeth into a big fat juicy burger loaded with cheese and bacon 

or maybe a nice large pizza to myself 

but of course the diet will resume itself after those few minutes of heaven


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## Rocco32 (Aug 5, 2003)

i can't wait to sink my teeth into a big fat juicy burger loaded with cheese and bacon 

or maybe a nice large pizza to myself 

but of course the diet will resume itself after those few minutes of heaven  [/QUOTE]

That's what I'm talking about!!


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 5, 2003)

I'd be careful with pizza if I where you. Eat a whole one and you can look at adding a pound easily.  Take it from someone who went balistic one day.  I once did 300 grams of fat and 600 grams of carbs in one day.  I needed it though.  It gave me sanity from some strict dieting.


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## mit37 (Aug 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Par Deus *_
> BTW, I still recommend refeeds, just less often than I used to, for the reasons stated.




so r u suggesting that the refeeds should last a shorter amount of time like a few hours instead of days... and can u give me examples of foods u eat to restore leptin?


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## Jodi (Aug 6, 2003)

Most refeeds are 12-24 hours, not a few days.


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## Fit Freak (Aug 6, 2003)

If you refeed for more than a day you will cetainly experience a "spill-over" and end up with less than optimal results...in fact I would say you'll ultimately end up on a bit of the "fatter side"...


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## Par Deus (Aug 6, 2003)

I was always a fan of short (8-12 hour), intense refeeds -- would basically eat all the cereal and pasta I wanted/could handle. Would be at least 50% above maintenence, if extended to a 24 hour period.

If one is doing the typical cyclical dieting (which, as mentioned, is no longer my favorite approach), I think this works best for ectomorphs and mesomorphs, but for endomorphs, and those with relatively poor genetics, I think a longer (24-36 hours), more moderate refeed would be best (like 10-20% above maintenence.


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## Rocco32 (Aug 6, 2003)

OK, I have to ask. What is a refeed? Should I be doing it?


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 6, 2003)

A refeed incorporated on a CKD diet.  A modified atkins.  You do a carb load for 24 to 36 hours.  Eating as much carbs as possible.  Then you go back to low carbing till your next refeed which may be in another week.


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## dymas (Aug 6, 2003)

Correct me if i'm wrong but during refeeds you should be adding slow-burning carbs.... If you are using refeeds as part of a cutting plan a refeed isn't supposed to be a "carb cheat binge" but rather a carb-up with slow-burning carbs.


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## Jodi (Aug 6, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dymas *_
> Correct me if i'm wrong but during refeeds you should be adding slow-burning carbs.... If you are using refeeds as part of a cutting plan a refeed isn't supposed to be a "carb cheat binge" but rather a carb-up with slow-burning carbs.


 This is the preferred method so you don't gain fat.  You can eat as many carbs as you want and keep fat and protein lower but most people dieting here are not on CKD and have some carbs in their diet so the slow burning carbs are your MUCH better choices.  This is how I do it.


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 6, 2003)

I was on that CKD Diet crap.  LOL.  Man was it horrible.  I cut go ripped of of it.  But I was tired 100 percent of the time.  So I bumped it.


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## Fit Freak (Aug 6, 2003)

I wouldn't suggest a CKD to anyone...Par...I agree with you also here..if you're anendomorph you need to be much more careful and therefore a more moderate refeed should be done.

I also think if your conditionning is "less than optimal"...meaning above approx. 12%...a refeed should also be more moderate in nature.


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 6, 2003)

I agree.  I am an endomorph myself I try not to go over 350 grams of carbs on a day where I just choose to eat normal.  Of course I am cursed with being an endo.


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## Par Deus (Aug 6, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dymas *_
> Correct me if i'm wrong but during refeeds you should be adding slow-burning carbs.... If you are using refeeds as part of a cutting plan a refeed isn't supposed to be a "carb cheat binge" but rather a carb-up with slow-burning carbs.



Insulin drives more glucose through the hexosamine pathway, so high GI are better for increasing leptin.

Ectos and Mesos will benefit more from the intense refeeds, as their biochemistry minimizes fat gain issues.

Endos and those with poor genetics will be more likely to have calories spill over into fat gain, so they will do better with longer, more moderate ones, with lower GI carbs.


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## Par Deus (Aug 6, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Fit Freak *_
> 
> I also think if your conditionning is "less than optimal"...meaning above approx. 12%...a refeed should also be more moderate in nature.



Yep -- I should have mentioned this. Fatter people will have more blood flow to the adipose and total adipose for taking up nutrients.


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## Jodi (Aug 6, 2003)

> Endos and those with poor genetics will be more likely to have calories spill over into fat gain, so they will do better with longer, more moderate ones, with lower GI carbs.



That would be why I only use slower burning carbs


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 6, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> That would be why I only use slower burning carbs




Ah...Jodi so you are an endo?


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## Jodi (Aug 6, 2003)

Endo-Meso


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 6, 2003)

lol..yea me too.  BLAME THE PARENTS!


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## mit37 (Aug 6, 2003)

do u have to be over maintenance or can just eat a ton of carbs


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 6, 2003)

I would assume be overmaintence.  But you have to do it like this.  Say on the refeed day or carb up day you decide to do cardio and lift.  Eat what was burned at the gym.  This would make it over maintence.


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## Twin Peak (Aug 6, 2003)

Overmaintenance.  Carbs are best.


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 6, 2003)

So I assume for an meso - endo like me i should intake somewhere around 500 grams?  Assuming I did cardio and lifting.


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## mit37 (Aug 6, 2003)

how many carbs should i be taking in around??


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 6, 2003)

Normally 2 times your bodyweight.  If you go to the gym on the refeed day / carb up day and burn 500 cals, I would add 125 grams more of complex carbs.


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## Twin Peak (Aug 6, 2003)

Endos would do best for a controlled refeed.  If you are normally say 20% below maintenance, go up tp 50% above for a 12-24 hour period.  High carb, low fat.


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 6, 2003)

Protien 1 gram per pound of bodyweight and minimal fat.


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 6, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Endos would do best for a controlled refeed.  If you are normally say 20% below maintenance, go up tp 50% above for a 12-24 hour period.  High carb, low fat.



I guess I am on the right path then.


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## Twin Peak (Aug 6, 2003)

Sounds like it yes.


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 6, 2003)

Thanks!


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## blinkboy99 (Aug 6, 2003)

what do u guys think about even smaller(4 hours) reffeeds twice a week like in the cheaters diet, he doesnt out line time, but im guessing u eat 1500/day and then 3000 on reffeed 

http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/body_230cheat.html


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 6, 2003)

Well that work also.  I know from experience.  But I only do that every 2 weeks.


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## Par Deus (Aug 6, 2003)

6 hours of overfeeding is the shortest time-frame shown to increase leptin that I have seen in the literature.


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## Par Deus (Aug 6, 2003)

T-Mag is only about 2 years behind with their "new" ideas on refeeding and leptin.


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## Mudge (Aug 6, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Par Deus *_
> Food and mood are very strongly tied in -- they cannot be separated.



Yep, carbo craving and serotonin levels have been shown to be related. Alot of dieting is a mental challenge to yourself I think, and frankly your cheating ways depends on your goals IMO. The less you think about cheating, and the more you stick to the diet, the easier it gets IMO. But of course occasionally there is a slip, especially if you skip a meal and let yourself get hungry then the quick fix becomes all too tempting.

Now for someone who wants to maintain 7% bodyfat year round, someone like that is generally going to be alot more strict than someone happy with 12%.


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## Par Deus (Aug 6, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Yep, carbo craving and serotonin levels have been shown to be related.



And, it goes quite a bit farther than that -- a couple snippets, from one of my articles:

"Before rational man, the organism needed a very strong signal to let it know what it needed to do for proper living, particularly in times of scarcity. Things have strong tastes for a reason. Unfortunately, one???s goals and needs are generally not in harmony with one???s genetic tendencies, nowadays, so the issue is far more complicated than ???yummy = good for you??? (ancestors) and vice-versa. This situation has literally caused an epidemic in times of plenty, as the genetic coding that calorie dense foods are precious and wonderful is still very much existent and active, but it now takes essentially zero effort (physical and otherwise) to attain this nourishment. 

Don???t fret, it gets much worse  -- many have come to possess a "thrifty" genotype. Unfortunately for these individuals, large amounts of muscle and high rates of FFA oxidation and lack of need/desire to eat are the thrifty genotype???s antithesis, so the nutrient partitioning situation can get ugly. Compare this, for example, to the West African, badass genotype (gorillas, rhinos, lions, elephants, pro-athletes), which evolved with continuous abundance. 

Fortunately, these same signals also open up quite a few avenues of attack. The body has a fair number of reward signals that indicate living right, as well as a vast number of pathways that mediate these reward signals (and, which these reward signals conversely mediate -- did I mention that EVERYTHING is connected). This same reciprocal, intertwined signaling extends to the process of telling the organism to stop a behavior that is anti-life as well. 

Dopamine, opiates, GABA, NE, Cannabinoids, PEA, NMDA and more are part of this reward signal, but, again, balance is key. Get something too high or run out of a needed substrate, and the organism shuts down those processes to avoid damage. And because these bodily functions are all interrelated, this shutdown of one process will often take the good stuff with it (like protein synthesis or nutrient uptake)."



"We talked about reward signals, quite a bit, in regard to the fed state, so I will just add that they are quite similar in nature, sharing neurochemicals and huge chunks of signaling pathways. This goes for responses to sex, to food, to drugs, and even great ideas. 

For example, food-restriction increases the subjective reward response to both food and drugs. It also increases both dopamine and opiate activity. This makes sense, on the micro and macro level. First, food restrictions mimics food scarcity/starvation, so your reward signals would be low, so the receptors would upregulate simply due to diminished ligand binding. Secondly, the leptin receptor is found all over neurons for pleasure chemicals in the areas of the CNS that modulated food related behavior and, not surprisingly, leptin decreases the reward response to both food and drugs. Fed signals are then sent in 1000 directions and you are chemically satiated.

There are a number of pathways where the reward and fed response is imbalanced in the obese, and conveniently, they can be connected to leptin or dopamine with 1-2 steps. This includes opiate pathways, inositol pathways, and more. "


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## Jodi (Aug 7, 2003)

> "We talked about reward signals, quite a bit, in regard to the fed state, so I will just add that they are quite similar in nature, sharing neurochemicals and huge chunks of signaling pathways. *This goes for responses to sex, to food, to drugs, and even great ideas*.





> the leptin receptor is found all over neurons for pleasure chemicals in the areas of the CNS that modulated food related behavior and, not surprisingly, leptin decreases the reward response to both food and drugs.



:bounce: 

I better order more Leptigen


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## Fit Freak (Aug 7, 2003)

Jodi...do you really think you're a meso-endo...your measurements seem rather small for that...have you ever measyred your wrists and ankles and compared them to the charts for bodytypes?


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## Julie7Ulie (Aug 7, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Par Deus *_
> Insulin drives more glucose through the hexosamine pathway, so high GI are better for increasing leptin.
> 
> Ectos and Mesos will benefit more from the intense refeeds, as their biochemistry minimizes fat gain issues.
> ...



Is there more info on this? I dont know what I am. Someone gave me this:

http://www.weightlosscontrol.com/bodytypes.htm

But I still cant tell because I feel like Im both an Endo-meso and  a Meso-endo. Does it really matter?


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 7, 2003)

You know all that stuff confuses me to.  I sometimes wonder if i am right claiming that I am a Meso Endo.


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## Jodi (Aug 7, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Julie7Ulie *_
> Is there more info on this? I dont know what I am. Someone gave me this:
> 
> http://www.weightlosscontrol.com/bodytypes.htm
> ...


Julie IMO, I think you are like me.  Endo-Meso   That's just what I think and could very well be wrong.


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## Julie7Ulie (Aug 7, 2003)

No way am I like you. Your tiny and cute. Im gargantuous and have bigger bones. Its like I was born with muscle and when i gain fat, I look even more huge.


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## Jodi (Aug 7, 2003)

Julie you have no idea.  I haven't always been this way


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## Julie7Ulie (Aug 7, 2003)

i betcha never weighed as much as me!  If I was a size 2, Id still be 140 lbs.


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## Jodi (Aug 7, 2003)

You do realize I'm only 5'1" right.


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## Julie7Ulie (Aug 7, 2003)

I'm 5'3"! 2 more inches isnt supposed to add a million pounds.


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 7, 2003)

HaHa.  It a mini farm.  I'm 5'4


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## Twin Peak (Aug 7, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Fit Freak *_
> Jodi...do you really think you're a meso-endo...your measurements seem rather small for that...have you ever measyred your wrists and ankles and compared them to the charts for bodytypes?



What does bone structure have to do with phenotype?


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## Jodi (Aug 7, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Fit Freak *_
> Jodi...do you really think you're a meso-endo...your measurements seem rather small for that...have you ever measyred your wrists and ankles and compared them to the charts for bodytypes?


Trust me I'm pretty confident that I'm endo-meso.  TP's seen pics and he agreed with me as well.


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 7, 2003)

Well I am what I am.  Not really sure...but you can call me "Shredded".


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## ZECH (Aug 7, 2003)

Mesomorph: 

Called the "gifted"ones, this type is genetically predisposed to great musculature gains. Usually very athletic looking, they have a good posture and are symmetric. For a bodybuilder or fitness enthusiast, this is good news! Mesomorphs are said to build muscle mass faster then most people can and to be able to loose fat rapidly when on the right diet!

Endomorph: 

This particular body type is generally predisposed to higher body fat % accumulation. Known to have a "soft look", it is harder for them to trim and tone through exercises and diet. The good news is that Endomorph bone structure is wide and strong. This can be a bonus for your bodybuilding endeavor

Ectomorph: 

Hard gainers in other words! Long leg/arms, low body fat %, and small muscles. While some women wouldn't find it to be a problem to have some of the characteristics of this body type, men will probably see it in a different way!


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 7, 2003)

Aside from those there there are combinations though.


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## Par Deus (Aug 7, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> What does bone structure have to do with phenotype?



While there are numerous and obvious exceptions (Pro bodyduilders -- small joints, huge muscles), many/most of the same biochemical states/mechanisms that cause anabolism is muscle and fat, also do so in bones.

As I am fond of saying: "It's all related"


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## ZECH (Aug 7, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by donescobar2000 *_
> Aside from those there there are combinations though.


Sure! That is just general classifications.


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 7, 2003)

Well call me Meso Endo.  "The Gift and The Curse"


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## Twin Peak (Aug 7, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Par Deus *_
> While there are numerous and obvious exceptions (Pro bodyduilders -- small joints, huge muscles), many/most of the same biochemical states/mechanisms that cause anabolism is muscle and fat, also do so in bones.
> 
> As I am fond of saying: "It's all related"



Bah, you are just a "junior member" -- what do you know.


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## donescobar2000 (Aug 7, 2003)

Yikes.


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## Twin Peak (Aug 7, 2003)

I suppose it should be clear to others that I was joking, but not only would I defer to my dear friend Par, but he is the owner of Avant Labs, with whom I am affiliated.


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## Par Deus (Aug 7, 2003)

I don't know, I am thinking you and Naturalguy might be one and the same.


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## Twin Peak (Aug 7, 2003)

We are both from New York.

'Bout time you got the damn sig up, Junior.


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## blinkboy99 (Aug 9, 2003)

i actually think im an endo-ecto...if its possible to have that bad gentics...i have always been fat, my hwole fam, both mothers and fathers side r overweight.  when i was 12 or so i was 5'0 about 130 but started wrestling and gaining height got up to 145(much lower than nat weight) at 6'0... i have small wrist and ankels, long arms/legs/neck(ecto chac) but gain fat extlemly eazy, very wide hips(endo chac)


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