# momentary muscular failure good or bad?



## Wes1 (Jul 3, 2011)

I have lifting weights since I was 16 and am now 51. I want to know if training to muscular failure is generally accepted now. I read nautilus training books in the early 80's and pretty much followed their principles of momentary muscular failure (But I did more than just one set per exercise). Though I had good gains These routines seemed to be hard on my joints (mainly shoulder). I think that when I am pushing out those last reps my form suffers and I hurt my joints. A now that I am older  joint pain is even more common. Can any one recommend any books or other souces to improve my routine? Thank You.


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## MrKeenan (Jul 3, 2011)

I recently read an article that stated taking every set to failure actually gained _less_ strength than those who don't take any sets to failure or at most only one set to complete fatigue. Maybe this is some help to you


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## Wes1 (Jul 3, 2011)

Thank you for the advice. So during say my bench press, on a set that I could do 8 reps and not one more not matter how hard I tried I should stop on rep Number 7? Thank You.


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## MrKeenan (Jul 3, 2011)

According to this research I would say perhaps still stay in the 8-10 rep region to promote hypertrophy however just go to failure for your last set; the study only suggesting that there is a greater strength increase in people who only take there final set/no set to failure.

Contradictory to what I say, I've heard a lot of bodybuilders who don't specifically count the number of reps during an exercise, they just assume the area it is around according to when there muscle fails. I know for a fact Dorian Yates was a strong believer in muscle failure as he'd often carry out negatives and partial reps after muscular failure.


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## Wes1 (Jul 3, 2011)

Thanks for the info. I think I have been overtraining for years now and this has probally held back my gains and caused my joint pain. Is there a good source available that talks about good bodybuilder training practices? Thank You.


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## troubador (Jul 3, 2011)

I've found that going to failure or even close to it(like 1 rep away) on early sets is counterproductive. I end up spent after the first set.


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## Wes1 (Jul 3, 2011)

For the bench press I was doing 6 warm up sets moving up in weight on each set then I would do my heavy set first 3-5 reps to failure then reduce the weight each of the next six sets failing in the 6 to 10 rep range. After talking to you guys I can see why my shoulder joints hurt all the time.


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## Captn'stabbin (Jul 3, 2011)

stay in the 8+ rep range if you want your joints to feel better. Hitting 3 rep set more of a power lifter deal. I always work my way up till i hit my last set 6-8 reps, where i fail. I don't use a spotter so i just do drop sets to get an extra push of blood into the muscle.


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## MrKeenan (Jul 3, 2011)

It depends on your goals really, what are you looking to achieve with your training?


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## Captn'stabbin (Jul 3, 2011)

also start a training log if you are hitting a plateau or just having troubles all around. It's easier to spot a problem that way.


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## Wes1 (Jul 3, 2011)

I do keep a training log and I will make steady gains until  I start to hurt my joints then I am forced to reduce my weights and move to higher reps per set. And the whole cycle begins again. I always thought then my joint pain was due to genetics rather that poor training. I now think I was wrong. Can anyone recommend good books or other sources to help me out. My fitness goals are lean muscle gains, not power lifting. As a side note I my doctor has writen me a script for Test-Cyp which I do my own weekly injections of 100 mg (I know this not much) but I want to make the most gains I can with what is available to me.


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## Captn'stabbin (Jul 3, 2011)

load up on some joint health formula... 
post your current workout schedule with your exercises, set and reps...


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jul 3, 2011)

Wes1,

*Training To Failure*

Training to failure during each training session creates and overtraining effect.  It can create other problems, like your joint problems.

*Would Healing*

Recovery time allows your muscles and central nervous system to recover for your next training session.  

The less trama place on the body (light training session) the faster you recovery.  

The greater the trama of your training session (training to failure) the longer the recovery time required.    

However, there is a place for it in your training program for traiing to failure.

*Infrequent Training To Failure.*

Training to failure should be an infrequent occurance that is part of your program.  That means pushing a set to failure should only occur during the last week of your periodization cycle.  

*Periodization Cycle*

A Periodization Cycle is a progressive training cycle in which you increase the intensity of your training intensity each week.  You can do that by increasing the weight, reps, or sets of an exercise.  

*Weekly Progression*

Think of this weekly progression as warm up sets.  The first week is your first warm up set.  The second week is your second warm up set.  The third week is your third warm up set.  And the fourth week is the top...all out set of your work out. 

*Bench Press Example*

Let say you have a four week bench press periodization cycle.  Your best bench press to failure is 225 X 8 reps.  

The top set/week in your Bench Press Periodization Cycle might look like this. 

Week 1: 170 X 10

Week 2: 190 X 10 

Week 3: 210 X 10 

Week 4: 230 X 8-failure

*Training Books*

There are a multitidue of good training book.  

Designing Resistance Training Programs by Fleck and Kraemer provides great overall information.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## sassy69 (Jul 3, 2011)

A couple suggstions:

For joint pain - at your age you probably have a degree of wear & tear that is just there, so you may have some limit to being completely pain-free. I would recommend to be sure to be taking in sufficient EFAs (Omega-3 & -6 supps) and also I have been using an MSM / Glucosamine / Chondroiten supp;lement for years.  My personal experience has been that of the 3, MSM is the most important to make a difference.

Stretching - HYUGE believer in sufficient warm-up. I always do a shoulder warm up on upper body day (this is all stuff my physical therapist gave me following my shoulder surgery a few years ago for rehab - get the blood pumping, particularly in the rotator): 
YouTube - ‪Rotator Cuff Rehab Phase 2 with Theraband - DEMONSTRATION‬‏ - this is a weird lady doing stuff w/ those stretchy exercise bands - I use a cable on the lightest weight for 3 x 20 and also front / angle / side lateral raises w/ DBs.

For lower body warmup, I'm religious about completing this Joe DeFranco stretching / wu sequence to get particularly, my hamstrings and knees worked out: 
DeFranco's Training ..:: The Ultimate Way To Become A Better Athlete ::.. - scroll down to the "Agile Eight" section.

I also recommend using a foam roller to help work the kinks out.

As far as training to failure, I personally think that constantly training to failure is too much - instead I like active recovery cycles so you can keep your lifting schedule, but have phases of heavy and light to allow cycles of recovery instead of perpetually demanding 1000% from the same muscle groups all the time. I think PLers can tell you that periodization is an important part of avoiding CNS overload.


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## Anabolic5150 (Jul 4, 2011)

Bill Pearl recommended never taking more then one set to absolute failure. I have followed this advice whenever I plateau, and it works. Also, Sassy is right on with her recommendation. I'm 50, soon to be 51, and the wear and tear on my joints is the worst part of all of this. You have to be smart with your training, supplementation, and most importantly rest. Take a week off every 8 weeks or so, just to heal. I do this religiously, and it always helps.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jul 4, 2011)

sassy69 said:


> A couple suggstions:
> 
> For joint pain - at your age you probably have a degree of wear & tear that is just there, so you may have some limit to being completely pain-free. I would recommend to be sure to be taking in sufficient EFAs (Omega-3 & -6 supps) and also I have been using an MSM / Glucosamine / Chondroiten supp;lement for years.  My personal experience has been that of the 3, MSM is the most important to make a difference.



sassy69,

As you point out, that trio of supplements definitely delivers.  I use it as part of my protocol in a shoulder problem that I had.  

It definitely works. 



sassy69 said:


> Stretching - HYUGE believer in sufficient warm-up.



I don't see much value in stretching prior to a movement for the majority of individuals for a couple of reasons. 

1) Stretching prior to a movement has been shown to decreased strength and power output.  

2) Connective tissue strech best at the end of a workout when they are supple. 

Connective Tissue are somewhat like string cheeze.  When cold stiff.  When warm, elastic. 

For the most part, warming up with the specific exercises that you are about to perform is the most effective warm up method.  It directly targets the muscles involved.  



sassy69 said:


> I always do a shoulder warm up on upper body day (this is all stuff my physical therapist gave me following my shoulder surgery a few years ago for rehab - get the blood pumping, particularly in the rotator):
> YouTube - ‪Rotator Cuff Rehab Phase 2 with Theraband - DEMONSTRATION‬‏ - this is a weird lady doing stuff w/ those stretchy exercise bands - I use a cable on the lightest weight for 3 x 20 and also front / angle / side lateral raises w/ DBs.



I understand some initial warm up for someone with a previous shoulder injury.  However, I don't see much need for it for the majority of individuals.  

*Making Your Warm Up A Workout*

One of the problems many individual have is that they turn their warm up into a workout.  

Thus, the key is to make sure you don't do that.  

*"Shoulder Shocker"* DeFranco
T NATION | Shoulder Shocker

With my previous shoulder problem, one of the best rehab programs that I found was DeFranco's "Shoulder Shocker".

*"Shoulder Pull Aparts"*

I found DeFranco's "Shoulder Pull Aparts" one of the keys to my shoulder rehab.  



sassy69 said:


> I also recommend using a foam roller to help work the kinks out.



As you point out, foam rollers are great for "working out the kinks" by breaking down the scar tissue.



sassy69 said:


> As far as training to failure, I personally think that constantly training to failure is too much - instead I like active recovery cycles so you can keep your lifting schedule, but have phases of heavy and light to allow cycles of recovery instead of perpetually demanding 1000% from the same muscle groups all the time. I think PLers can tell you that periodization is an important part of avoiding CNS overload.



*Active Recovery*

As you noted, light days enhance recovery. Research shows that active recovery days with some form of light to moderate activity is much better that doing nothing.  

However, as with warm ups, the problem is that many individuals often turn an active recovery day with light to moderate loads into a high intensity workout.  This defeats the purpose.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## sassy69 (Jul 4, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> sassy69,
> 
> As you point out, that trio of supplements definitely delivers.  I use it as part of my protocol in a shoulder problem that I had.
> 
> ...



I am not recommending doing a lot of a cold stretching - that is best kept for post workout if you want to spend the time. However, speaking from experience the last 3-4 years - I'm 45 right now - doing an active warm up prior to a leg day makes the difference between doing PRs on full ATF squats or going down once on an unweighted warm-up and getting stuck.

The shoulder warmups - again - as people age, I would venture that they have over or under-developed either a push or pull dimension and have produced some sort of aggravation in their rotators. Thus I consider this something important to include for older folks as they continue lifting. This takes all of about 5 minutes to complete so I don't see how its a bad thing. If you talk to most people around 40, they are most likely going to have something to bitch about in their shoulders, forearms/elbows/wrists or knees. All of these are things that can be helped w/ more attention to a warm up first.


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## sosc (Jul 4, 2011)

wes1 here are some things that have not yet been
posted as yet considerations.

(1) Are your certain that you form is correct? There are a few
different factors such as your arm width, the movement of your
elbow, and the path of the bar.

(2) Have you tried using dumbbells instead of a barbell?

(3) Do you have a muscle imbalance? My rear deltoid has usually
been the problematic muscle in relation to bench.

(4) Have you seen a chiropractor? Some time ago I literally had
a shoulder/back muscle out of place. She was able to effectively move
some strands into the right spot allowing me to bench with
almost no pain.

-----

In regards to your question of reaching failure, a stronger underlying
principle is progressive overload. That is, do you complete more
reps or increase the weight during every subsequent session? I suggest
doing some experimentation, keeping a log, and analyzing your results
to understand what works best for you.

I also suggest being cautious with your shoulder until you find out
what's wrong.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jul 4, 2011)

*Warm Ups*



sassy69 said:


> I am not recommending doing a lot of a cold stretching - that is best kept for post workout if you want to spend the time. However, speaking from experience the last 3-4 years - I'm 45 right now - doing an active warm up prior to a leg day makes the difference between doing PRs on full ATF squats or going down once on an unweighted warm-up and getting stuck.



Hi sassy69,

I've read some of you post.  So, I have no doubt that you have a good reason for what you do. 



sassy69 said:


> The shoulder warmups - again - as people age, I would venture that they have over or under-developed either a push or pull dimension and have produced some sort of aggravation in their rotators. Thus I consider this something important to include for older folks as they continue lifting. This takes all of about 5 minutes to complete so I don't see how its a bad thing.



I don't see it as a bad thing. I just see it as unnecessary, unless someone has some sort of problem that need to be addressed.  

In prescribing a training session, like you, we go over any problems they might have.  I don't assume they have a shoulder problem or any other malidy.

One thing that I have found in dealing with people is that they love to talk about themselves and any problems they might have.  So, they usually volunteer the information long before I ask. 



sassy69 said:


> If you talk to most people around 40, they are most likely going to have something to bitch about in their shoulders, forearms/elbows/wrists or knees. All of these are things that can be helped w/ more attention to a warm up first.



People in general have something to bitch about...so, don't get me started... 

I am sure many 40 plus individuals have some problem.  However, I've found that performing the warm up with the exercise they are about to perform is enough.  

Some individuals are more comfortable with a slower progression of warms.  Other like myself, utilze a minimal amount of warm ups.  

Some of it comes down to what each individual feels most comfortable with. 

However, one of the problems that I've seen are individuals who turn their warm up into a full blow workout.  

They end up burning out before they reach their top set.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## sassy69 (Jul 4, 2011)

Interesting. It looks like this whole warmup thing needs more clarification.. Let us qualify this then. I believe if you qualify this w/ -- "This should take no more than 5-10 minutes" will go a long way towards people doing one of these full-workout warm-ups you're talkign about. The POINT is simply to get blood moving. No more, no less. Possible give some quick attention to any angles that may be presenting soreness if you have a specific issue.


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