# Do you feel safer since we've conquered Iraq?



## maniclion (Aug 9, 2005)

So now that Saddam and so many of his henchmen are gone do you feel safer from a terrorist attack?


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 9, 2005)

Yeah -


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## min0 lee (Aug 9, 2005)

We conquered Iraq?

 I voted .........No, it will make things worse.


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## 007 (Aug 9, 2005)

Made things worse.  Not saying Sadam was a good man, he was worst kid of man, he had no humanity.  Still the war was started for the wrong reason.


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## maniclion (Aug 9, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> We conquered Iraq?
> 
> I voted .........No, it will make things worse.













 or something to that _affect_.


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## Witmaster (Aug 9, 2005)

No fucking bias in this thread, that's for certain


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## min0 lee (Aug 9, 2005)

I wonder if the next generation of kids from Iraq will hate Americans more than they already do?


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 9, 2005)

I don't know that conquered is the right kind of word to use!?!?

Sadam was a prick, but when he was captured, we should have said
"Got him" everything OK now, see ya!... Ok to take it from here UN!
and got out of dodge!

Then I think our mainstream troops should have come home, and been assigned
to counter terrorist homeland duty, busting down doors with the FBI

Working airports, border crossings,
and carrying out their regular training
within reach of their families

SPEC-OPS should stay in the middle east and west indies
to be ready for missions to wipe out terror cells

AND CIA working worldwide


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## Witmaster (Aug 9, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> I wonder if the next generation of kids from Iraq will hate Americans more than they already do?


My experience in Afghanistan was, they loved us.  Wanted to be around us all the time.  Of course, the also loved our charity and good-will.

I'll never forget the smile I got from a little girl once.  She was too little to compete with the bigger kids who all muscled thier way forward to be near us for hand-outs of candy, water, and MRE's (we really wern't supposed to give this stuff out but these kids lived in a very depraved part of town and had nothing).

Anyhow, I spot this girl standing way in the back with a helpless look on her face.  I make my way through the crowd, ushering the larger kids off to one side.  I must have seemed like a looming giant over this little girl who stood all of 2 feet tall.  I knelt next to her and offered her some water.  She accepted and drank it quickly.  I then reached in my cargo pocket and pulled out a hershey bar and several jolly ranchers.  Her eyes lit up so big it almost took my breath away.  I sat there with her and we chatted (My interpreter helped bridge the gap)  Her name was Abibi and in that brief moment between us, we were best friends.  We shared some bread and beef jerky from my MRE and then parted ways.

I made several stops by her village during routine patrols only this time little Abibi would fight through the older kids and latch on to my leg.  She was definatly a charmer   Prior to my departing the country, I took a squad of my replacements through the village and introduced the new squad leader to Abibi.  She cried when she learned I was leaving but seemed to understand this was the way of things.  She hugged me one last time and waved goodbye until I was out of sight.

Now, I don't know if the Children of this war will grow to hate America.  I just hope little Abibi will remember her American friend when she grows older and, perhaps, share her story with her children about how Americans are not all that bad after all.


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 9, 2005)

If you would have given that candy to a boy, he would have loved it...

But later when he was forced into one of those head bobbing taliban schools,
he would learn to hate all westerners...




...even Canadians


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## TCAP28 (Aug 9, 2005)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> My experience in Afghanistan was, they loved us.  Wanted to be around us all the time.  Of course, the also loved our charity and good-will.
> 
> I'll never forget the smile I got from a little girl once.  She was too little to compete with the bigger kids who all muscled thier way forward to be near us for hand-outs of candy, water, and MRE's (we really wern't supposed to give this stuff out but these kids lived in a very depraved part of town and had nothing).
> 
> ...




Bro, that is a good story, we rarely hear these kinds of stories.  Thanks.


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 9, 2005)

TCAP28 said:
			
		

> Bro, that is a good story, we rarely hear these kinds of stories. Thanks.


That was an excellent story...



BUT... 





You still get the glass violin -


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## Dale Mabry (Aug 9, 2005)

TCAP28 said:
			
		

> Bro, that is a good story, we rarely hear these kinds of stories.  Thanks.




That's because that little story typically ends with the little girl detonating herself and taking the squadron with her.

Ouch, wrong on so many levels.


Good stpry wit, I kid, but just as much good stuff as bad stuff is happening, we just don't hear it cuz who wants to hear it?


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## Witmaster (Aug 9, 2005)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> Good stpry wit, I kid, but just as much good stuff as bad stuff is happening, we just don't hear it cuz who wants to hear it?


You are so right.....

During my tour we (U.S. and Coalition forces) rebuilt and refurnished 4 schools (2 primary, 1 middle, and 1 high school). We established and/or restored power to about 180.000 residents. We built and/or rebuilt 9 major bridges. Paved a highway between Kabul and Kandahar. Restored full services to 2 major hospitals and buit a 3rd. Facilitated the creation of a legitimate and recognized local police force. Built 5 Fire Stations and trained full crews for each..... I could go on and on.

During this time what did the media report???

Terrorist Rocket Attacks, Dead Coalition forces and Car Bombings. They flocked all over the Abu Gharib prison scandel and didn't hesitate to compare all U.S. service personnel to the Nazis of WW2. I must confess, our media can (at times) be very demoralizing for the troops abroad. Fortunately, we don't buy into thier rhetoric. We've lived the difference.


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 9, 2005)

Yeah, I'm just starting to see some good pics of happy faces...
Cause the guys brought or emailed those home with them

Nothing from the Media
(dicks) -


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## min0 lee (Aug 9, 2005)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> My experience in Afghanistan was, they loved us.  Wanted to be around us all the time.  Of course, the also loved our charity and good-will.
> 
> I'll never forget the smile I got from a little girl once.  She was too little to compete with the bigger kids who all muscled thier way forward to be near us for hand-outs of candy, water, and MRE's (we really wern't supposed to give this stuff out but these kids lived in a very depraved part of town and had nothing).
> 
> ...


I don't want to sound corny but I'm misty eyed. 
If I was to hear or read this I would take it as media propaganda but coming from a soldier and fellow IM friend I'll take your word.

Hopefully everything works for  many Abibi's in the future.


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## busyLivin (Aug 9, 2005)

maniclion said:
			
		

> So now that Saddam and so many of his henchmen are gone do you feel safer from a terrorist attack?



Yes. I firmly believe that spreading freedom closes the door on terrorism. 

Their willingness to vote was a testament to what they want for their country.  We provided that opportunity.


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## Arnold (Aug 9, 2005)

I will feel safe once Bush is out of office.


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## busyLivin (Aug 9, 2005)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> I will feel safe once Bush is out of office.


George or Jeb?


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## GFR (Aug 9, 2005)

Yes, I firmly believe spreading death an unprovoked war opens tho door to more and continued terrorism.

But at this point I could give a fu-k...............same old sh`t America has been doing since day 1...(1776 that is)....same old crap...different day.


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## SuperFlex (Aug 9, 2005)

Not sure... Time will tell. In my opinion we had no business there in the first place! We should have gone after Bin Laden, made the world a better place, and then sat back and weighed out what our next step should be if any... Bush is a jackass...  God have mercy on us all (except the worthless people Lord).


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## Nick+ (Aug 9, 2005)

busyLivin said:
			
		

> Yes. I firmly believe that spreading freedom closes the door on terrorism.
> 
> Their willingness to vote was a testament to what they want for their country.  We provided that opportunity.



Keep on spreading the freedom.

West turns blind eye as police put Saddam's torturers back to work 

IRAQI security forces, set up by American and British troops, torture detainees by pulling out their fingernails, burning them with hot irons or giving them electric shocks, Iraqi officials say. Cases have also been recorded of bound prisoners being beaten to death by police.

In their haste to put police on the streets to counter the brutal insurgency, Iraqi and US authorities have enlisted men trained under Saddam Hussein???s regime and versed in torture and abuse, the officials told The Times. They said that recruits were also being drawn from the ranks of outlawed Shia militias. 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1683578,00.html

Murdoch's 'Times' is hardly a "liberal" newspaper, by the way.


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## MuscleM4n (Aug 10, 2005)

It made things safer!!

terrorists would have ocme out of the closet sooner than later anyway. Got rid of a few at least.


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## Big Smoothy (Aug 10, 2005)

Saddam Hussein never had anything to do with terrorists attacks against America or west.

Iraq has not been conquered.

I am supporting the insurgents.

When the U.S. pulls out in the Spring or Summer of 2006, there will be a civil.


Banana Republic = Oil Republic = NOT.


Go Insurgents!!


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 10, 2005)

busyLivin said:
			
		

> George or Jeb?


Both...?

Meanwhile...
Has anyone read about the Mercury poisoning
in New York, caused by the increase in coal buring power
stations and decreases in emmisions protection standards?

Thanks Bush Admin -  

Gee...
War n Iraq...
Oops!... - Forgot about everyone being POISONED!
The Canaries Had Their Coal Mines


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## maniclion (Aug 10, 2005)

All we did was shake the tree the beehive was dangling from.


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## busyLivin (Aug 10, 2005)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> Go Insurgents!!


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## busyLivin (Aug 10, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> Both...?
> 
> Meanwhile...
> Has anyone read about the Mercury poisoning
> ...




oops, meant _President_ George Bush or our next _President_,  Jeb Bush....


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 10, 2005)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> Go Insurgents


 
Go third Party Candidates -


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 10, 2005)

busyLivin said:
			
		

> oops, meant _President_ George Bush or our next _President_, Jeb Bush....


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## Witmaster (Aug 10, 2005)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> Saddam Hussein never had anything to do with terrorists attacks against America or west.
> 
> Iraq has not been conquered.
> 
> ...


Pray I never find you.


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## steeledge (Aug 10, 2005)

_All we did was shake the tree the beehive was dangling from._

You got that right, maniclion!

For those interested in the outcome of this little mess, read about the Goths and the Roman Empire.  This kind of thing has happened before.  A few of the minor details are different, but the basic scenario is the same.  Quite interesting how that one turned out.


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## ALBOB (Aug 10, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> same old sh`t America has been doing since day 1...(1776 that is)....same old crap...different day.




Wow.  What, in your eyes, have we EVER done that was right?


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## GFR (Aug 10, 2005)

ALBOB said:
			
		

> Wow.  What, in your eyes, have we EVER done that was right?


Give me a month or two............I'll think of something.


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## Decker (Aug 10, 2005)

busyLivin said:
			
		

> Yes. I firmly believe that spreading freedom closes the door on terrorism.
> Their willingness to vote was a testament to what they want for their country. We provided that opportunity.


Interesting BL, do you equate spreading freedom w/ capitalism and/or democratic processes?

I don't think freedom can be imposed from an external force (US) at the end of a gun barrel.  Freedom, as an abstract, is grounded in choice...the freedom to choose, the freedom to become.  I assume that your contention is that by removing Hussein, the US has opened up the Iraqis' choices to determine their own fates.

I don't think so.  The legal mechanisms in place guarantee foreign investors ownership of substantially all of IRaqi infrastructure.  I.e., the Iraqi people can't put their hearts into what they don't own.  

I believe Scott Ritter who, based on sources inside the establishment of the Iraqi vote, said that the elections were rigged.  Ritter has more credibility than Bush---which one was correct about WMDs again?

In short, the 'spreading freedom' chestnut has been used to justify every property grab/invasion of the US in recent history.  The elite investors benefit, the mid/lower class do the killing and dying and the indigenous peoples are relieved of their properties and rights.  

Oh yes, worldwide terrorism was 5 times higher in '04 than the year before.  You cannot defeat a tactic (terrorism) w/ conventional warfare or by giving the terrorists (Iraqis) the democratic right to vote.


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 10, 2005)

Decker said:
			
		

> Interesting BL, do you equate spreading freedom w/ capitalism and/or democratic processes?
> 
> I don't think freedom can be imposed from an external force (US) at the end of a gun barrel. Freedom, as an abstract, is grounded in choice...the freedom to choose, the freedom to become. I assume that your contention is that by removing Hussein, the US has opened up the Iraqis' choices to determine their own fates.
> 
> ...


 

I paid $2.39 per gallon, for my last tank of gas...

Where's my benefit?


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## Dale Mabry (Aug 10, 2005)

I think if you answer the question, "Do you feel any safer now?", you can answer the question, "Was the war justified."

The answer to both for me is no.  The point of the war was to make the world safer, not give Iraqis freedom and schools.  At least that was the shit we were fed at the beginning.  I don't feel any safer from a terroristic threat now than before, but to be honest I was never that worried about it in teh first place.


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 10, 2005)




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## busyLivin (Aug 10, 2005)

The same people bitching would be the same people blaming Bush if Saddam launched nukes at us (or sold them) that he "didn't have."

That "report" means nothing to me. World-wide reports initially said they did. He had them.. but look at the rep America has gotten from them being "non-existent." That was not an accident.

If terrorists weren't pre-occupied in Iraq, they'd be here blowing up our schools, our malls.  We took the fight to them.  No one can guarantee or prove it either way, but I'd rather be on the safe side.


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## GFR (Aug 10, 2005)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Pray I never find you.


I think he is an atheist.


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## ZECH (Aug 10, 2005)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Pray I never find you.


Battambang, Cambodia
I'm working on address and Phone, pictures of his house


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## Witmaster (Aug 10, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> I think he is an atheist.


He'll convert.


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## Witmaster (Aug 10, 2005)

dg806 said:
			
		

> Battambang, Cambodia


Cambodia eh?  This actually explains a lot.  Cambodia merchant ships have been linked to supply lines directly supporting terrorist cells throughout the world.  Wouldn't surprise me in the least if this fucker was one of them.

Oh, I think I found a picture of his house..


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 10, 2005)

dg806 said:
			
		

> Battambang, Cambodia


He's a freakin Al Quaeda mole!?!? -  

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] 
*Checking IDs for Christians (Indonesia)*

[/font]

"Around 100 people are still blocking the streets and checking people's IDs. They are searching for Christians. I don't know what they are going to do with them," one said. 

Indonesians must declare their religion on their identification cards. Most are Muslims, forming the world's largest Islamic community. 

But Christians, who include many of the country's ethnic Chinese, make up Indonesia's most economically successful minority. The Chinese in particular have long been the target of attacks from poorer segments of society. 

Ethnic and religious violence has escalated in the past year, driven by the worst economic and political turmoil in 30 years, which has thrown millions out of work and into poverty. 

Hundreds have died this year alone in Christian-Muslim clashes in Indonesia's eastern spice islands, and there have been outbreaks of savage communal violence in several other parts of the country


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## HotMom23 (Aug 10, 2005)

No, I don't feel safe at all! I think Bush made things worse. We will always be at war with them now. Way to go smart guy!


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## busyLivin (Aug 10, 2005)

Clinton did nothing... a lot of good that did us.


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## GFR (Aug 10, 2005)

Bashing Clinton.............does it make G.W.B. look better  *Nope!*


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 10, 2005)

busyLivin said:
			
		

> Clinton did nothing... a lot of good that did us.


He kept gas under $2 per gallon


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## Dale Mabry (Aug 10, 2005)

It is a battle of incompetency.  When either side cannot take responsibility for what they did, they mention something the other side did.  Hard line people on either side are worthless to me wrt politics.  You would be surprised that most are pretty cool to hang out with, just leave the politics at the door.


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## Decker (Aug 10, 2005)

Hussein did not have nuclear weapons.  He never did.  He had no means of creating them.  The deterrents put in place by Bush I and underscored by Clinton worked.  The weapons inspectors verified that.

When terrorists bombed the World Trade Center 37 days after Clinton took office, he had the terrorists captured, tried and jailed.

If you want an accurate aetiology why terrorists are striking at the US, look no further than the monied elites--the Bush family is included in this--who compel foreign countries to permit investment/piracy of indigenous resources through political machinations--US driven coups, assassinations, invasions, terrorism.  Exploitation by any means necessary.  I mean just read Bin Laden's reasons for why he's attacking the US--because he hates our freedoms????  not a chance.


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## tucker01 (Aug 10, 2005)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> It is a battle of incompetency.  When either side cannot take responsibility for what they did, they mention something the other side did.  Hard line people on either side are worthless to me wrt politics.  You would be surprised that most are pretty cool to hang out with, just leave the politics at the door.




Fuck you Jean Chretien RULES


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## Dale Mabry (Aug 10, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> He kept gas under $2 per gallon




That's funny.


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## Dale Mabry (Aug 10, 2005)

IainDaniel said:
			
		

> Fuck you Jean Chretien RULES




I would expatriate, but I would get fucked on the exchange rate.


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 10, 2005)

It's great to support your government, and I certainly
support military spending, research and development

But by the looks of things most people here, don't agree with the war
in Iraq - (Which is what I keep hearing about)

There is also a smaller scale war going on in afghanistan
nobody has really mentioned whats happening there

I am thinking most of those terror camps have hiked over into pakistan
to enjoy immunity to carry out their dirty deeds at will


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## Dale Mabry (Aug 10, 2005)

With the exception of the economy, the war in Iraq, gas prices, that whole September 11th fiasco, and the promotion of clearly incompetent cabinet members, I think I am satisfied with GW's 2 terms.

















Jus playin, the economy is no one's fault, Sept 11th thook care of that.  I don't think anyone would have acted on the Sept 11th stuff that was out before it happened, and if I were president I would give my incompentent friends a job.  So, all in all, I think 98% of the population would have done pretty much the same shit.  That is prolly why most hate Bush, he is as incompetent as us, but he gets to be prez.  I wouldn't want to be prez, I would prefer just to make money and do nothing.


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## tucker01 (Aug 10, 2005)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> I would expatriate, but I would get fucked on the exchange rate.




Should have left a couple of years ago, you would have made a killing on the exchange rate.  It was @ like $0.56 compared to the $0.82 it is now.


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## Nick+ (Aug 10, 2005)

Just saw Rumsfeld on CNN, he reminded me of Goebbels. Same lies ,same spin, and one evil mug.


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 10, 2005)

Our economy is shit because there are no taxes on goods manufactured oversees
and imported to here...


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## busyLivin (Aug 10, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> But by the looks of things most people here, don't agree with the war in Iraq - (Which is what I keep hearing about)



Silent majority.  


BTW.. I wasn't bashing Clinton... Just responding to how some people are saying "Bush stirred the pot" or "Bush made it worse": I'm just saying the pot was already stirring & not doing anything about it isn't the answer.


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## busyLivin (Aug 10, 2005)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> Hard line people on either side are worthless to me wrt politics.



I hate hard liners too.. need more moderates like me


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## Decker (Aug 10, 2005)

busyLivin said:
			
		

> I hate hard liners too.. need more moderates like me


I'm on that bandwagon.


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 10, 2005)

busyLivin said:
			
		

> the pot was already stirring & not doing anything about it isn't the answer


What business was it of yours?

You don't know or live anywhere near Iraq??

I wouldn't give a shit if Sadam Hussein was running
around dressed up like a clown,
Riding a purple moped, honking his little clown horn,
singing the soundtrack from "Mary Poppins",
ass raping Iraqi men with a super soaker full of
lime gatorade!?!?

As long as he stays out of my yard, who f#$ckin cares?
I want gas prices to go down, and employment to go up


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## busyLivin (Aug 10, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> What business was it of yours?
> 
> You don't know or live anywhere near Iraq??
> 
> ...



we didn't do anything about bin Laden in our backyards either when we had the chance.  

as far as what you said goes (it's not affecting you, who cares), that's just not how I think.  Anyway, it may not have affected us immediately, but it very well could have.


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 10, 2005)

busyLivin said:
			
		

> we didn't do anything about bin Laden in our backyards either when we had the chance.
> 
> as far as what you said goes (it's not affecting you, who cares), that's just not how I think. Anyway, it may not have affected us immediately, but it very well could have.


Bin Laden = Known Terrorist = Apples
Iraq = Sovereign Nation = Oranges

And I didn't say the CIA shouldn't have put the hit out on every one
of those assholes in that deck of cards...

And as for 9-11, we got fucked, because we let those assholes in
We trained half of them to fly, they crossed the border without question
Etc, Etc, Etc...

But its done now, and the work needs to be done here
to prevent that shit, our government knows what to do

It's not happening because someones feelings might get hurt - 

If the FBI wanted to search my house tonight, and ask questions about
the family of 16 Uzbecki's that live across the street from me

No problem, I would be happy to help


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## maniclion (Aug 10, 2005)

A message to President et al:

 "I would like to direct this to the distinguished members of the panel: You lousy corksuckers. You have violated my farging rights. Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves."  Roman Moroni


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 10, 2005)

maniclion said:
			
		

> A message to President et al:
> 
> "I would like to direct this to the distinguished members of the panel: You lousy corksuckers. You have violated my farging rights. Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves." Roman Moroni


That's a FARGIN trick question!!!


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## Big Smoothy (Aug 10, 2005)

dg806 said:
			
		

> Battambang, Cambodia
> I'm working on address and Phone, pictures of his house



Dg, you are good.   ISP address?

I am in Phnom Pehn on holiday right now, in Cambodia.  Very nice people here.

I just returned from the U.S. to visit.  It was a great time. 


It's too bad we can't have objective discussions about this topic.  I know it's controversial.  I respect Witmaster and believe he is (or was) in Afghanistan.

I support the Afghanistan operations and many U.S. military operations elsewhere, but no in Iraq.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Iraq is not worth one American losing an arm, leg, or life.

If you support the troops, ask them to be sent home.


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## Dale Mabry (Aug 10, 2005)

maniclion said:
			
		

> A message to President et al:
> 
> "I would like to direct this to the distinguished members of the panel: You lousy corksuckers. You have violated my farging rights. Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves."  Roman Moroni




He's gone legit...Le-what...Legit.


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 10, 2005)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> He's gone legit...Le-what...Legit.


Name another mob that offers a dental plan!?


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## clemson357 (Aug 11, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> And as for 9-11, we got fucked, because we let those assholes in
> We trained half of them to fly, they crossed the border without question
> Etc, Etc, Etc...
> 
> ...


no, we got fucked because a pussy-piece-of-shit womanizer known as Bill-'my wife owns me'-Clinton didn't have the balls to kill Bin Laden when he had the chance.  It is a documented fact that Clinton had the opportunity, knowledge, and resources to kill Bin Laden near the end of his presidency.  He didn't.

But you are right, I am sure we would be a lot fucking better off if Al-'I invented the question mark'-Gore was running this country and we had never done anything in the middle east.


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## maniclion (Aug 11, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> It is a documented fact that Clinton had the opportunity, knowledge, and resources to kill Bin Laden near the end of his presidency. He didn't.


At least he was able to find him.


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 11, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> no, we got fucked because a pussy-piece-of-shit womanizer known as Bill-'my wife owns me'-Clinton didn't have the balls to kill Bin Laden when he had the chance. It is a documented fact that Clinton had the opportunity, knowledge, and resources to kill Bin Laden near the end of his presidency. He didn't.
> 
> But you are right, I am sure we would be a lot fucking better off if Al-'I invented the question mark'-Gore was running this country and we had never done anything in the middle east


 - Please...

Every administration since the 70's is to blame for the hit on 9-11

And when did I ever say Al Gore would have done a better job??

  - Please don't speak for me anymore


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## clemson357 (Aug 11, 2005)

maniclion said:
			
		

> At least he was able to find him.


yeah, Bill Clinton himself located Bin Laden.  And it did A TON of good!!  Bin Laden wasn't as concerned with being covert back then, maybe because he hadn't killed 2,000+ people yet.


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## clemson357 (Aug 11, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> And when did I ever say Al Gore would have done a better job??


Thats the way a two party system works.  Your choices for the past 8 years have been Bush, Gore, and Kerry.  I don't think Bush is a good president, but he is better than either of the other two idiots would have been.  Maybe your party should put up a decent candidate.  That won't happen though, Hillary is running and losing in 2008.


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## maniclion (Aug 11, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> yeah, Bill Clinton himself located Bin Laden. And it did A TON of good!! Bin Laden wasn't as concerned with being covert back then, maybe because he hadn't killed 2,000+ people yet.


If Billy hadn't of had to be be dragged into the other bullshit for a blowjob he would have had that wasted time to make some executive decisions on getting rid of real threats to national security.  Shit people made it look like he'd leaked the name of a covert agent from the CIA or something...


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 11, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> Thats the way a two party system works. Your choices for the past 8 years have been Bush, Gore, and Kerry. I don't think Bush is a good president, but he is better than either of the other two idiots would have been. Maybe your party should put up a decent candidate. That won't happen though, Hillary is running and losing in 2008.


What's that smell??? -  
Is someone burning tires in here!?!?!


Oh... - I see...

You're thinking for me again -  

Whoever said I was a Democrat!?!?! -


----------



## Big Smoothy (Aug 11, 2005)

If you support the Iraq war you support fascism.  When coporations, Military-Industrial complex and the government are enmeshed, working as one, a republic is a republic no more.

America is not a democratic republic anymore.  

The interests of a power few, all unelected, are why the U.S. went into Iraq.


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## GFR (Aug 11, 2005)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> If you support the Iraq war you support fascism.  When coporations, Military-Industrial complex and the government are enmeshed, working as one, a republic is a republic no more.
> 
> America is not a democratic republic anymore.
> 
> The interests of a power few, all unelected are why the U.S. went into Iraq.


  great post................
For you dummies out there....its called Fascism..


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## Nick+ (Aug 11, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> great post................
> For you dummies out there....its called Fascism..


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## Decker (Aug 12, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> It is a documented fact that Clinton had the opportunity, knowledge, and resources to kill Bin Laden near the end of his presidency. He didn't.


I would like to see that documentation.  

I don't think you have any documentation.  And I also think you have no idea what you are talking about.  The conviction you hold demonstrates perfectly why conviction is more dangerous to truth than lies.  At least the liar knows he is lying.

Clinton was a company man and did some stupid stuff as president but what you assert is straight out of the Sean Hannity primer.  You Clinton-haters want to believe that he'd eat babies and steal the canes from blind people.

Wow, did you know that the Bush family knew about the 9/11 attacks beforehand?  That the Saudis planned to whole thing--15 of the hijackers were arabs--to drive up the price of oil, destabalize geopolitical relations calling for a general crackdown on individual liberties and exponential growth of the military industrial complex?  The Bush family is an oil family and they go way back with the Saudis.  So Bush let the attacks on 9/11 happen to entrench republican political power, ensure his re-election and dismantle the US's safety net social programs.  Bush's advisers wrote policy papers stating that a new Pearl Harbor would be optimal for enacting their empire dreams.  A win-win situation for Bush and the house of Saud.

See how stupid that sounds.


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## clemson357 (Aug 12, 2005)

Decker said:
			
		

> I would like to see that documentation.
> 
> I don't think you have any documentation. And I also think you have no idea what you are talking about....
> 
> ...


 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4540958/

_In 1998, President Clinton announced, ???We will use all the means at our disposal to bring those responsible to justice, no matter what or how long it takes.??? ..._

_...video, shot by the U.S. government.  It illustrates an enormous opportunity the Clinton administration had to kill or capture bin Laden. Critics call it a missed opportunity._



who sounds stupid now?


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## Decker (Aug 12, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> who sounds stupid now?


Why you still sound stupid of course. 

My god, don't you people read your own sources? 

"The tape shows a man *believed* to be Osama bin Laden walking at a known al-Qaida camp."
???You see a tall man???. You see him surrounded by or at least protected by a group of guards.???

Holy Shit with incontrovertible evidence like that let's start the bombing.

Exiting the rabid right world of conviction and back to planet earth:

Clinton rejected military strike on bin Laden
WASHINGTON (AP) ??? During President Clinton's final days in office, senior officials weighed a military strike against Osama bin Laden after receiving intelligence on his whereabouts. The plan was rejected over concerns the information was stale and could result in a miss or civilian casualties. . .

Military officials presented a possible military strike option, and the pros and cons were debated.
Concerns were voiced that the intelligence might be already stale given bin Laden's tendency to move quickly and go into hiding. There also was discussion of the possibility such an attack might kill innocent civilians.
Concerns were also stated that if the intelligence had already grown stale, the U.S. could strike and miss bin Laden ??? only further emboldening terrorists and embarrassing the United States. (remember the aspirin factory debacle?)
Yeah, Clinton is so corrupt he let terrorists slide. Clinton was corrupt but not deranged.

Does it make sense now?

IF all the pieces fell into place to start bombing, why didn't the pieces fall into place when Bush was handed a brief entitled, "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US" and why did Bush bomb Iraq when the best scientific evidence available showed no WMDs? 

Clemson, sometimes not everything is red meat.


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## clemson357 (Aug 12, 2005)

Decker said:
			
		

> Holy Shit with incontrovertible evidence like that let's start the bombing.


its a documented fact.  denial is part of liberalism, I guess.  read sometime, there are plenty of other sources on it. 




PS - 'the clinton administration was concerned about stale information' that is political talk for 'we fucked up but are not going to admitt it.'  You quote what the administration itself said as a defense to the evidence.     Wake up and join the real world.


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 12, 2005)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> If you support the Iraq war you support fascism. When coporations, Military-Industrial complex and the government are enmeshed, working as one, a republic is a republic no more


1/2 agree



			
				Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> America is not a democratic republic anymore


Disagree



			
				Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> The interests of a power few, all unelected, are why the U.S. went into Iraq


Agree


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## fUnc17 (Aug 12, 2005)

Short term, I believe the war made things worse, temporarily. Long term, I believe it will have been worth it, unfortunately many people do not have much patience.

You go into a country in which many do not welcome you, things are obviously going to get worse before they get better... much better.

Go USA.


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## Witmaster (Aug 12, 2005)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> I've said it before and I'll say it again:
> 
> Iraq is not worth one American losing an arm, leg, or life.
> 
> If you support the troops, ask them to be sent home.


And yet you say...



			
				Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> I am supporting the insurgents.
> 
> When the U.S. pulls out in the Spring or Summer of 2006, there will be a civil.
> .
> Go Insurgents!!


 Did it EVER occur to you that it is the INSURGENTS who are killing American Soldiers?  These are also the same shit stained fuck-tards who murder hundreds of innocent civillians for no other reason than to instill fear into the hearts of the Iraqi people.  You spew your fucking rhetoric out about how you "support the troops" and don't want anyone of us to die and yet you fucking have the gall to CHEER ON the very people who are trying to kill me?!?!?  

Fuck you and Kiss my ass prick.  I don't need any support from shit stains like you.


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## GFR (Aug 12, 2005)

ouch


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## Witmaster (Aug 12, 2005)

Look, I'm not looking for sympothy from anyone.  My decision to join the Armed Forces was mine alone.  I'm proud of my mission and my service.  I hope my actions somehow bring honor to my Country, Corps, and Fellow Soldiers.

Just don't go shovving a dick in my ass and then tell me your just trying to help me scratch those "hard to reach" spots.


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## GFR (Aug 12, 2005)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Look, I'm not looking for sympothy from anyone.  My decision to join the Armed Forces was mine alone.  I'm proud of my mission and my service.  I hope my actions somehow bring honor to my Country, Corps, and Fellow Soldiers.
> 
> Just don't go shovving a dick in my ass and then tell me your just trying to help me scratch those "hard to reach" spots.


I have to coppy this and put it in my signature......
but I dont know how to do that


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 13, 2005)

That would go perfect with that picture in your sig - 

But then I might have to scroll through it -


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## Big Smoothy (Aug 14, 2005)

My support for the insurgents is political.  

My support for the troops is for them to be pulled from Iraq and return home to get on with their lives and be with families, out of harm's way.

Supporting the insurgents may lead to US corporate interests giving up on Iraq - which means - the political and military arm will give up on Iraq as well, as the costs and time-frame are too much.


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## Decker (Aug 15, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> its a documented fact. denial is part of liberalism, I guess. read sometime, there are plenty of other sources on it. .


Please reread your source.  The only thing documented in that nonsense is an opinion that the tall guy was OBL.  There was a tall guy.  Great.  How do you know it was OBL?  You don???t.  He had ???bodyguards??? around him?  How do you know?  Unless you accept that assumption that OBL was the ???tall guy???, the conclusion that the guys around him were bodyguards flows from a false premise.  Oh yes the other sources of this story are right wing blogs.

Don't you think that the republicans would have had Clinton's balls on a plate if he did what you (and the article) assert he did?  Or do they just reserve impeachment for lying about blowjobs?




			
				clemson357 said:
			
		

> PS - 'the clinton administration was concerned about stale information' that is political talk for 'we fucked up but are not going to admitt it.' You quote what the administration itself said as a defense to the evidence.  Wake up and join the real world.



The point of all this analysis is that people like you support shooting first and asking questions later.  Bush bombed Iraq, like a fool, based on no good supporting evidence and tens of thousands of innocents died b/c of his shortsightedness.  



Clinton did not engage in bombing b/c of the risk to innocents and the likelihood of stale reconnaissance.


You claim that denial is part of liberalism.  Perhaps.  But you are remarkable evidence that propaganda works.  You show no capacity for critical thinking or thinking that is independent of the republican party line.  Here it is in a nutshell:



    ???Those of us (Bush et al) who have rationality???have to create          necessary illusions and emotionally potent over-simplifications to keep the naive simpletons more or less on course.???  



Illusions.  Bill Clinton just let OBL walk.



Could Clinton have done a better job?  Sure.  Did he fuck up by not bombing?  Not from where I'm sitting....he had a reasonable explanation for not bombing--like it or not.  That's the obverse of Bush's bombing of Iraq. 

For what its worth, I think attacking terrorism as a law enforcement problem is more effective than declaring war on arbitrary enemies.  Look how well Iraq has curbed worldwide terrorism???it???s up over 400%.


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## clemson357 (Aug 15, 2005)

Decker said:
			
		

> Please reread your source.  The only thing documented in that nonsense is an opinion that the tall guy was OBL.  There was a tall guy.  Great.



You are a fucking idiot, and you are in denial.  It is a known fact, reported on every major news channel there is.  But I am sure you know more than intelligence experts who study satellite images and do this sort of thing for a living, so I will take your word for it....


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 15, 2005)

Did you guys see THESE facts yet?


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## Decker (Aug 15, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> You are a fucking idiot, and you are in denial. It is a known fact, reported on every major news channel there is. But I am sure you know more than intelligence experts who study satellite images and do this sort of thing for a living, so I will take your word for it....


And you are brilliant.  You have the sheer genuis to know for a fact that the figure in the satellite pics is OBL.  None of the experts can verify that the figure in those pics is in fact OBL...but you can.  Considering the track record of the CIA's performance in handling global terrorism, I'm surprised this is even persuasive for you.  But then again, you are a child of propaganda--all things Clinton Bad grrrrrrrrrrr.  Lawyers pray for knowlegable people like you to take the stand.  

But you know for certain b/c you are edgeecated.  Listen Jethro, here's a fact: a photo of OBL and here's an opinion:  that tall figure in the picture might be OBL.  Get the difference? Obviously not.

Reading comprehension helps...or are you homeskooled? 

"It is a known fact reported on every major news channel there is."  Bullshit it is.  MSNBC carried this horseshit and rightwing hacks, like yourself, parrot it through the echochamber.  I don't count Townhall, Newsmax or free republic as as 'every major newschannel.'  (But the Right does monopolize the media so I wouldn't be surprised if this shit trickled down.)

Boy, the *Liberal Media* must have fucked up when MSNBC put forth this compelling 'evidence' of Clinton's blundering.


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## clemson357 (Aug 15, 2005)

Decker said:
			
		

> here's an opinion: that tall figure in the picture might be OBL. Get the difference? Obviously not.


yeah, I understand the difference between fact and opinion.  I also understand that the opinion of a highly-trained intelligence expert who's only job in the world is to know these things is a little more important that the opinion of some nobody on the internet who jumped on the 'I hate W.' bandwagon.  

believe whatever the fuck you want.  I don't care.  My party is in the whitehouse, and will be for a long time from the looks of things.  The reason: loudmouth, liberal, elitist pieces-of-shit such as yourself.


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## Decker (Aug 15, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> believe whatever the fuck you want. I don't care. My party is in the whitehouse, and will be for a long time from the looks of things. The reason: loudmouth, liberal, elitist pieces-of-shit such as yourself.


I don't have to be an expert in satellite technology to discriminate fact from opinion.

Ouch, "elitest"  How dare you!!!

Dream on Jethro.

Your corporate lords and masters, i.e., the Bush family et. al. are elitest.  Harvard, Yale, Andover...mixing business w/ government--crony capitalism--and sending the low and middle class off to comic wars to enrich themselves and augment their own class's grasp on power.  

All you've done is internalize the values that underscore the easy to understand, emotionally evocative propaganda that is fed to you by them.  Good job.

Now roll over.  Sit.   Up Up you can do it.


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## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

Decker said:
			
		

> I don't have to be an expert in satellite technology to discriminate fact from opinion.
> 
> Ouch, "elitest"  How dare you!!!
> 
> ...


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## Dante (Aug 15, 2005)

i feel less safe than ever with bush in office.  he is destroying our country.


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## clemson357 (Aug 15, 2005)

Decker said:
			
		

> I don't have to be an expert in satellite technology to discriminate fact from opinion.


you are intellectually bankrupt.


reread the sentence this refers to, then see if you can figure out why your response is moot. 

if you are not smart enough to do that, then talking to you is a waste of my time.


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## Nick+ (Aug 15, 2005)

The USA is rather like an out of control beast at the minute (like Germany was in the 1930's).   Next Bush and his cronies , will no doubt be nuking Iran.........


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## clemson357 (Aug 15, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

>


look everyone, I have a stalker; someone with nothing better to do than follow me around an anonymous internet forum an insult me, or applaud other people who are slinging insults.  How cute.


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## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> look everyone, I have a stalker; someone with nothing better to do than follow me around an anonymous internet forum an insult me, or applaud other people who are slinging insults.  How cute.


I agree with Decker.........  
Don't pick a fight with me here also..................Decker is kicking your ass


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## clemson357 (Aug 15, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> I agree with Decker.........
> Don't pick a fight with me here also..................Decker is kicking your ass


Decker is saying nothing of substance. He is good at insulting people, and displaying how inept he is. That is all.


PS - get a fucking life.  nobody 'wins' an internet argument.


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## Decker (Aug 15, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> you are intellectually bankrupt.
> 
> 
> reread the sentence this refers to, then see if you can figure out why your response in moot.
> ...


   I don't wanna read that crap anymore.

Ohhh all right, here it goes.  I am not intellectually bankrupt.  I read a book once.  That's why my brother calls me Read (hint: red)....It's a joke son.

My response is not moot.  Monday morning Armchair quarterbacking is easy.  Making a decision on bombing whole areas---surgical bombing strikes exist only in the media and fairy tales---requires a bit of intelligence and humanity.  Both qualities are sadly lacking in Bush.  Bombs away and to hell with countervailing considerations.  Be damn sure about who and what you are bombing. 

As far as context of the location of the towering white figure, well, Clinton had this same sort of sterling 'evidence' when he bombed an aspirin factory.


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## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> Decker is saying nothing of substance. He is good at insulting people, and displaying how inept he is. That is all.
> 
> 
> PS - get a fucking life.  nobody 'wins' an internet argument.


Well you sure didn't win this one with him.


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## clemson357 (Aug 15, 2005)

Decker said:
			
		

> .... Clinton had this same sort of sterling 'evidence' when he bombed an aspirin factory.


keep thinking, you might have almost come up with something relevant...


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## clemson357 (Aug 15, 2005)

Decker said:
			
		

> Monday morning Armchair quarterbacking is easy.


I agree.  Liberals have 'monday morning quarterbacked' the WMD issue into a greasy spot on the ground, it is no longer a dead horse.  Funny, I don't remember any liberals jumping up and down screaming 'there could not possibly be WMD in Iraq' when the war started.  No, they waited until it was clear to everyone, then acted like they had known it all along and W hadn't listened to their urgent cries...


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## Decker (Aug 15, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> Decker is saying nothing of substance. He is good at insulting people, and displaying how inept he is. That is all..


You post an article.  You agree with the nonsense in it b/c it is 'proof' Clinton was inept and corrupt.  

Sorry Bud, but life's not that simple and the article you posted is not self-evident truth.  Debating is a worthwhile endeavor.  Try it sometimes instead of appealing to the questionable authority of a badly written article.

Oh yes....Thank you, I like insulting people who are deserving.  



			
				clemson357 said:
			
		

> PS - get a fucking life. nobody 'wins' an internet argument.


Wrong again.  You lose.  

Wait a minute, post that funny pic of the retarded child running a race--"arguing on the Internet is like competing in the Special Olympics, no matter who wins you're still retarded" or something like that.  

I can suggest other things for you to think.


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## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)




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## Decker (Aug 15, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> I agree. Liberals have 'monday morning quarterbacked' the WMD issue into a greasy spot on the ground, it is no longer a dead horse. Funny, I don't remember any liberals jumping up and down screaming 'there could not possibly be WMD in Iraq' when the war started. No, they waited until it was clear to everyone, then acted like they had known it all along and W hadn't listened to their urgent cries...


The UN Weapons Inspectors, or as I call them, world class scientists, said there were no WMDs.  But Bush went with his gut and committed a war crime....attack.  He didn't think.  What the hell do I care what liberals scream about.  That's a false dichotomy---world's composed of liberals and conservatives.  I'm more of a socialist.

Check your facts before blowing the Limbaugh horn of hypocrisy.  We knew from the inspectors that WMDs were not there.  Oh that's right....they were like Inspector Clouseau....har har har.  Wrong again.

I do apologize for my assinine comments.  Sometimes I just have too much fun Clemson.  No hard feelings.


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## clemson357 (Aug 15, 2005)

This thread is worthless, a bunch of partisan-political bullshit.

I don't jump on the 'I hate W' bandwagon, and for that you want to insult me.  Thats fine.  W isn't the best president, but I believe he did a better job than Gore or Kerry or Clinton would have.

You call my thoughts 'mindless propoganda' without a hint of irony, yet when faced with things you were not aware of the first thing you did was criticized the only weak points you could find, without even considering the possibility that it was true.  I call that mindless.  You identify yourself as liberal, and therefore you will side for liberals whenever faced with something you have not yet considered.  

talking with you is pointless, all you want to do is insult people.  very intelligent of you.


You call me jethro because I am from the south, and I laugh.  IT IS THAT ELITIST THINKING that lost your party the last election and will continue to loose your party every election until you realize that.  It is clear you think you are better than I am.  I don't care, have fun bitching.  It falls on deaf ears.  Nobody cares about you and your celebrity spokesmen.  Go suck on Ben Afleck and Leo DiCaprio.  After all, you are all so much better than everyone else.


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## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

its all well and good spreading democracy around the world but the fact is the taliban in afganistan made sure opium poppies were not grown and the profits were not going to terrorist organisations, saddam persecuted islamic fundementalists (dont think he believed god should have more power than him lol) and therefore kept terrorists at bay.
War in the middle east has served as a very effective recruitment tool for fundementalists thus we have foolishly opened pandoras box.


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## Decker (Aug 15, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> This thread is worthless, a bunch of partisan-political bullshit.
> 
> I don't jump on the 'I hate W' bandwagon, and for that you want to insult me. Thats fine. W isn't the best president, but I believe he did a better job than Gore or Kerry or Clinton would have.
> 
> ...


Boy...you try to be nice to some people.  I called you Jethro b/c I was having fun w/ 'homeskooling' and not b/c you're from the south although I see that that is now appropriate.  I never Identified myself as 'liberal'...I'm much closer to socialism.  

Of course I criticize the weak points of that shitty article you posted, what do you want wholehearted support?  This aint the golden microphone.

I am better than you, not b/c I think I think I am, but b/c you argue like a paperass punhole (as a friend used to say).  As I said, opinon v. fact, impulsive reaction v. reasoned contemplation....what's wrong with discussing these things?   

Like many rabid right wingers subject to propaganda, when you lose an argument you start screaming "FAGGOT" at your opponent.

In my opinion, 'ELITIST' is more significant in reference to monied powerbrokers and not a frame of mind/self-importance created by the Limbaugh-like propagandists.

Your pissing and moaning is not worthy of rational response--enlightenment was the foundation of our republic....I say was, son...

Wake up.  Since when do you Trust Big Government the way you so called conservatives praise Big Gov. Bush?


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## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

USA is the new imperial power, much like GB in the 19th century. so all hail emperor bush


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## Nick+ (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> USA is the new imperial power, much like GB in the 19th century. so all hail emperor bush



Heil Bush!


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## Decker (Aug 15, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> I don't jump on the 'I hate W' bandwagon, and for that you want to insult me. Thats fine. W isn't the best president, but I believe he did a better job than Gore or Kerry or Clinton would have.


Just read what the hell you wrote.  Get off all bandwagons.  Group think is group thought.  Think for yourself otherwise other people do your thinking for you.

I'm glad that you have the belief that Bush was the best man for the job.  Look at the results though.  He's a fuck up from head to toe for the average american.  Oh that's right, you believe in getting gov. off your back...meaning less taxes on the wealthy, less environmental restrictions on manufacturing, and less legal interference from consumers injured by a faulty product or who have had the wrong fucking leg cut off in a bungled operation.  How any of these things benefit the average american is a mystery unless you are open to the tortured reasoning of right wing propaganda.

Then it all makes sense.


----------



## clemson357 (Aug 15, 2005)

Decker said:
			
		

> I am better than you...


 

you think so?  what do you know about me?

you know that I don't agree with your political philosophy, thats it.  you think you can determine my worth as a person by whether or not I agree with you?  Only a flamming liberal would be arrogant enough to admit it.


----------



## Decker (Aug 15, 2005)

clemson357 said:
			
		

> you think so? what do you know about me?


I know that you can't argue to save your life.  

But I'm sure you are a fine person and a decent human being.

You just happen to support a fundamentally dishonest, anti-democratic and criminally culpable administration.  

We all make mistakes.


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## Decker (Aug 15, 2005)

Like I said, no hard feelings.


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## Skate67 (Aug 15, 2005)

its ok guys you can forget about Iraq.  He's going to invade Iran next.


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## maniclion (Aug 15, 2005)

That's it motherfucker's I'm joining the Bush League, what's our motto? "All for one, none for all.  If I fuck up someone else can take the fall."


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## Psycho Dad (Aug 18, 2005)

America has been at a state of war since the Kenedy administration..........................1984 is alive and well.


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