# A good beginers stack?



## sentricyphen (May 12, 2004)

What is the standard stack most start with? 
I've heard test. + Xsteroid works good?


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## Just a guy (May 12, 2004)

d-bol... Fina... Winny... Just matters what you want... But me i would choose fina.  Or EQ.


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## BCC (May 12, 2004)

For a beginner I wouldn't advise anything more than 500mgs of  test enanthate or cypionate for 10 weeks.


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## novice_lifter (Jun 24, 2004)

What about anavar or androil ??


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## Power Rabbit (Jun 24, 2004)

both are nearly worthless in terms of strngth and mass


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## Mudge (Jun 24, 2004)

BCC said:
			
		

> For a beginner I wouldn't advise anything more than 500mgs of test enanthate or cypionate for 10 weeks.


Exactly, beginners dont need to stack. I used low dose test and did GREAT. All you need to do is watch your diet and training.


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## Johnnny (Jun 29, 2004)

For a beginner a good stack that most of my friends started out with & still use even now is Sustanon 250 a blend of 4 testosterones, some deca durabolin (nandralone decanoate), & maybe some Winstrol depot injectable.

This will give very good size with good muscle hardness especially from the deca & winstrol & the fact Sustanon 250 doesn't give as much water retention as say Suspension would.

But if you've just started training in general, it is highly recommended to train 
%100 natural for at least 2yrs to develop a good base or foundation, & the fact that if you take juice right away, your joints will be at risk for injury. Yes your muscles will get stronger & grow, but your joints will not have had a chance to get used to all the training & you could injure yourself.

It's betterto wait 2-3 years training naturally that is if you just started training in general.


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## LAM (Jun 29, 2004)

that's a terrible stack for 1st timers...Sustanon is not for newbies to AS and deca is overrated..


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## Johnnny (Jun 29, 2004)

LAM



> that's a terrible stack for 1st timers...Sustanon is not for newbies to AS and deca is overrated..


How would you know have you ever tried that stack? What makes it so terrible?

Most of the users I know & spoken to started with that type of stack & had great results with it. They had reported gaining a good 20-25lbs & said they retained anywhere from 15-20lbs depending on the individual.

Sustanon will give anywhere from 10-20lbs of lean mass w/o much water retention as others like Suspension can. Sustanon also has low androgenic effects & will not convert to estrogen very easily. 250 mg/week of Sustanon 250 is enough to gain 10-20lbs easily in a 2 month period & gains will continue to come after you stop using it b/c it stays in the system for as long as a month or more when you are finished.

Deca or nandralone is a great substance as it's low in androgenic effects & doesn't convert to estrogen & with it's anabolic nature & will give an individual I'm estimating from ppl I know who've used it between 5-10lbs of solid hard mass making it a very safe & widely used steroid.

As for Winstrol, winstrol dissolves in water not oil like many steroid injectables do. But with this 50mg every other day should be injected. Winstrol also won't aromatize to estrogens & has no risk of water retention. Winstrol also causes some strength gain, but not like Sustanon, D-Bol or Deca will. But it's main purpose is used to get the real hard look to your shape w/o water retention.

This is an ideal stack to a first time user. The individual will gain a very descent amount of muscle along with very good hardness & shape provided the proper diet is there.


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## LAM (Jun 29, 2004)

lol ! Sustanon, ideal for a 1st timer.  Do you actually KNOW anything about anything ?


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## Johnnny (Jun 29, 2004)

LAM



> lol ! Sustanon, ideal for a 1st timer. Do you actually KNOW anything about anything ?


Like I said I've done research & spoken to many ppl who have used Sustanon 250 all by itself for a first time steroid cycle. & it worked great for them, are they wrong for using it?

You didn't answer my question have you ever used it or this stack?

What would you recommend for first time use just some Winstrol depot?

Like I said Sustanon 250 isn't as heavy or harsh on the body as Testosterone Suspension or Ethanate is. Sustanon 250 has very low conversion rate to estrogen. It gives good size & weight gain with not much water retention.

Many ppl have used Sustanon 250 for a first time steroid. So they are wrong?


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## LAM (Jun 29, 2004)

wrong, not really but there are much BETTER compounds to use for a first cycle like enanthate or cypionate.  having the multiple of tests in sust makes it harder to keep blood level concentrations stable which is why sust is not for newbies to AS.

no, I have not used the stack because I know that sust is way overrated, and enanthate is much better as a long ester.  sust is cheap and easy to get which is why many people use it. plus people hear "it has 4 different types of test" in it so it must be better, which is not true...

for a 1st time user simple is the best.  something like 10 weeks of enanthate at 500 mg/wk (depending on the amount of LBM that they have) is all you need.  AS use is a lot of trail and error.  when you are new to AS and start off using stacks you really don't know how each of the compound is effecting you so you really aren't learning anything about what works best on "you"...


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## Johnnny (Jun 29, 2004)

LAM



> wrong, not really but there are much BETTER compounds to use for a first cycle like enanthate or cypionate. having the multiple of tests in sust makes it harder to keep blood level concentrations stable which is why sust is not for newbies to AS.
> 
> no, I have not used the stack because I know that sust is way overrated, and enanthate is much better as a long ester. sust is cheap and easy to get which is why many people use it. plus people hear "it has 4 different types of test" in it so it must be better, which is not true...
> 
> for a 1st time user simple is the best. something like 10 weeks of enanthate at 500 mg/wk (depending on the amount of LBM that they have) is all you need. AS use is a lot of trail and error. when you are new to AS and start off using stacks you really don't know how each of the compound is effecting you so you really aren't learning anything about what works best on "you"...


Are you nuts?

You're telling a first time steroid user to go on Testosterone Cypionate or Ethanate?

These 2 compounds can be pretty heavy on the system especially to a first time steroid user.

You might as well tell them to go & take Anadrol 50 the oral testosterone.

Most users I know wouldn't dare touch it b/c it will go right through the liver.

Sustanon 250 is much lighter & won't cause water retention & bloating like Cypionate, Ethanate & Suspension will.

Not only that Sustanon 250 has low estrogen conversion risk factor.

With Cypionate, Ethanate & Suspension you will definetely need an anti-estrogen like Clomid or Nolvadex etc....

None of these 3 compounds I've listed have a high risk for conversion to estrogen like these other 3 testosterones do.

It's a perfect stack & you will retain a good portion of your gains from this stack.

Again Testosterone Cypionate, Ethanate, & Suspension can be pretty heavy on the system especially if your body isn't used to anabolic steroids.


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## Rauschgift (Jun 29, 2004)

Johnny you really don't know what the hell you are talking about. With Sust you DO retain quite a bit of water. 

For a beginner a simple 10-12 week run of test enathate 500mg should do very nicely. Or even just sust 250 @ 500mg per/wk as well.


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## Johnnny (Jun 29, 2004)

Rauschgift 



> Johnny you really don't know what the hell you are talking about. With Sust you DO retain quite a bit of water.
> 
> For a beginner a simple 10-12 week run of test enathate 500mg should do very nicely. Or even just sust 250 @ 500mg per/wk as well.


Sorry to disappoint you but I do know what I'm talking about. The majority of the ppl that I've spoken to who've used Sustanon 250 either alone or in a stack had next to no water retention, just clean mass.

The ppl I discuss with & get my information from are experienced juicer say 5-10yrs & the older guys as much as 12-15yrs juice experience.

They have all stated that they got the most water retention from Tesosterone Cypionate, Ethanate & Suspension.

& this was just one or 2 ppl with this experience. It's more like 8-10 ppl who've shared this experience with these 3 testosterones.

Plus with all the reading about different compounds in some of the steroid bible's, they've all said the same thing.


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## SJ69 (Jul 1, 2004)

What makes you think that the testosterone in Sustanon does not convert to estrogen?  What makes it different than any other testosterone?

Also to take advantage of the fast acting ester in there it would be better to inject Sust every 2 or 3 days

Why not just do 500mg Enanthate One shot per wk (instead of 3) and throw in maybe 30 mg D-bol ed if you must stack?

Have Nolvadex or an anti aromatase on hand anyway, you'll need the Nolva PCT.


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## Johnnny (Jul 1, 2004)

SJ69



> What makes you think that the testosterone in Sustanon does not convert to estrogen? What makes it different than any other testosterone?
> 
> Also to take advantage of the fast acting ester in there it would be better to inject Sust every 2 or 3 days
> 
> ...


It is known that Sustanon 250 has is a low risk estrogen conversion drug which is why it is so popular & which makes it good for a beginner stack with some Deca & Winstrol this is an ideal stack for a beginner & they will get very good results with it.

Like I said Ethanate can be hard on the system especially someone who has never taken steroids before. From the users I know, they wouldn't advise taking Ethanate, Cypionate, or Suspension for a first time steroid use.

Sustanon isn't as hard on the system & it's known for not converting into estrogen very easily & isn't overly hard on the system as Ethanate, Cypionate or Suspension is which makes it an ideal choice for a beginner stack.


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## Monolith (Jul 1, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Rauschgift
> 
> 
> Sorry to disappoint you but I do know what I'm talking about. The majority of the ppl that I've spoken to who've used Sustanon 250 either alone or in a stack had next to no water retention, just clean mass.
> ...


 Im thinking you should kill yourself right about now.


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## Johnnny (Jul 1, 2004)

Monolith 


> Im thinking you should kill yourself right about now.


WTF is your problem?  

It's the truth like it or not.

I do know what I'm talking about as I've read up on a lot of these substances, & have been told first hand experieces by more than one person on the effects of different substances. Results & experiences don't lie!


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## redspy (Jul 1, 2004)

Johnnny - have you juiced before or are you relying on textbooks and your friends' opinions?  Just curious.


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## SJ69 (Jul 1, 2004)

Test is Test, please explain WHY you think it won't convert into estrogen if was previously attached to different esters, I don't get it.  The active "drug" / hormone is testosterone.


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## Johnnny (Jul 1, 2004)

redspy



> Johnnny - have you juiced before or are you relying on textbooks and your friends' opinions? Just curious.


If you read anything I've said before I almost took steroids in 1999 to gain some mass & at the time I was 227lbs at 5ft10 with descent condtion. I probably would've hit 240 or 245lbs easily in a 2 month cycle.

So I took time to find out everything I could about each different substance & what they do & what they are used for & how they are best taken & with what & so on.

Plus I have more than several friends who've been using many different steroids including the ones mentioned here for anywhere from 5-10yrs with steroid experience. So I also trust that as well, not to mention some other bodybuilders who I've spoken to about different drugs & how they affect & react in the body.


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## Mudge (Jul 1, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> It is known that Sustanon 250 has is a low risk estrogen conversion drug which is why it is so popular & which makes it good for a beginner stack with some Deca & Winstrol this is an ideal stack for a beginner & they will get very good results with it.


No offense, but stop spreading bullcrap.

Testosterone converts to estrogen through aromatase conversion, there is virtually no estrogen manufactured direction in the testicles themselves, almost ALL of it comes from aromatase conversion.

An ester attached to the testosterone molecule simply defines approximately how long its half life in the body will be, it has nothing to do with estrogen conversion. Once that ester is removed it is TESTOSTERONE, and testosterone is the same thing as testosterone which is also the same thing as testosterone.

I ran low dose sustanon for my very first cycle and nothing else, you dont need deca and winstrol to make gains, you need food and training.

Mixing 4 different esters reduces estrogen conversion? Oh brother.


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## redspy (Jul 1, 2004)

> If you read anything I've said before I almost took steroids in 1999 to gain some mass & at the time I was 227lbs at 5ft10 with descent condtion. I probably would've hit 240 or 245lbs easily in a 2 month cycle.
> 
> So I took time to find out everything I could about each different substance & what they do & what they are used for & how they are best taken & with what & so on.
> 
> Plus I have more than several friends who've been using many different steroids including the ones mentioned here for anywhere from 5-10yrs with steroid experience. So I also trust that as well, not to mention some other bodybuilders who I've spoken to about different drugs & how they affect & react in the body.


   That was a great answer, you should be a politician.  You could have just said 'no'.  I've done a lot of research on juice too but I've never used it, which is why I never give people advice and argue with the experienced users here, who've done many cycles and have first hand knowledge.


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## JerseyDevil (Jul 1, 2004)

Johnny, why is that you seem to incite people no matter what forum you post in? I used to think you did it on purpose, but now I believe you just lack internet social skills  .

Although Johnny is way overstating it, according to the Anabolic Review profile, Sustanon does have less water retention then enanthate and cyp. Sort of like prop, which supposedly causes less bloat then enanthate.

The profile on Steroidology states only a _slightly_ more tolerable bloat.

From Anabolic Review: 
_*Athletes who use Sustanon report a solid muscle growth since it results in less water retention and also aromatizes less than either testosterone enanthate or cypionate. Indeed many bodybuilders who use testosterone and fight against distinct water retention and an elevated estrogen level prefer Sustanon over other long-acting depot testosterones.... *_*Water retention and gynecomastia are usually within limits with the "Sustas" or are not as massive as with enanthate and cypionate.*

From Steroidology:
*Although it (Sustanon) does convert to estrogen, as is the nature of testosterone, this injectable is noted as being slightly more tolerable than cypionate or enanthate...**Also correlating with estrogen, water retention would be noticeable with Sustanon, unless steps were taken to minimize estrogen. Many individuals like to use a combination of Nolvadex & Proviron, while others use an anti-aromatase like Arimidex, Femara, or Aromasin, to help control estrogen related side effects. *


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## Mudge (Jul 1, 2004)

Jersey, keep in mind some people with TNE or short esters claim less water, some claim more.

Some claim more water with long esters, some claim less - there is no clear answer and really there is no evidence to support (that I've seen or heard of) that ester has anything to do with it.

If it does have anything to do with it, it is clear that it is release time because that is what the ester effects, so if blood levels being steady vs more fluctuation effects it, then choose your ester appropriately.


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## Rauschgift (Jul 1, 2004)

Johnny, 
You are like those annoying pop up messages....they just won't go away. My third cousins brothers sisters uncle did steroids and HE said.....blah blah blah.


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## Johnnny (Jul 1, 2004)

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-profiles/sustanon-250.htm


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## JerseyDevil (Jul 1, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Jersey, keep in mind some people with TNE or short esters claim less water, some claim more.
> 
> Some claim more water with long esters, some claim less - there is no clear answer and really there is no evidence to support (that I've seen or heard of) that ester has anything to do with it.


I agree.  Once the ester is removed, it is still just good ole testosterone, so it really doesn't make much sense.  I bloated plenty with prop  .  My point though, was that according to the various drug profiles, Sustanon does cause less water retention then the single longer esters (whether its true or not).  So it's easy to see why Johnny's friends advised him this way.


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## Johnnny (Jul 1, 2004)

JerseyDevil

Yes it's true of the users I know. & yes there is some chance of it converting into estrogen, but not as much of a risk as Suspension, Cypionate or Ethanate.

But Sustanon does have less chance of water retention than the others.


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## Mudge (Jul 1, 2004)

One guru said years ago that sustanon attached to four different receptors because of the ester, so yeah some guys "friends" really analyzed heavily how much estrogen was converted I'm sure


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## Johnnny (Jul 2, 2004)

I asked Gopro's opinion on Sustanon 250 & here is what he said:




> while it does aromatize heavily, it does not aromatize to the point of single test products...that would include eth and cyp


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## Mudge (Jul 2, 2004)

I'd love to hear why he thinks that.


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## Power Rabbit (Jul 2, 2004)

test is test,and no combonations of test esters is going to change the normal attributes of it... it will aromatize.....it will cause water retension...it will cause gyno..

Knowing people who did/used something is the worst arguement ever. Some people can jab a gram a week and be fine, while others have gyno comeing out of thier ears.


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## gopro (Jul 4, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> I'd love to hear why he thinks that.


Had a talk with Author L Rea about it. I don't remember his complete explanation for it, but the man knows more about drugs than anyone since Duchaine (who I have spoken with too). I will see if I can get an accurate answer for it, as I didn't care enough to lock it all into my brain...out of all things BBing, drugs is the least of my favorite topics.


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## Fit Freak (Jul 4, 2004)

Holy shiat...test is test...you will retain fluid on any type of ester...whether it be enanthate, cyp, prop...etc.

As for comparing A-Bombs to Enan...rethink what your saying PLEASE.

I am avoiding this conversation b/c I can tell that some poeple have REAL experience while another is just re-typing the bullshit on different internet sites.

I will NOT mention names.

GOOD LUCK.


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## gopro (Jul 4, 2004)

Yes you will retain fluid on any type of test but that does not tell you everything about to what extent it is aromatizing.


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## Johnnny (Jul 4, 2004)

gopro 


> Yes you will retain fluid on any type of test but that does not tell you everything about to what extent it is aromatizing.


That's what I've been trying to say exactly. This is getting very interesting.

Who is Author L Rea? It sounds like this individual knows his sh!t! 

& we all know about Dan Duchaine. Gopro what is he like in person? I've read a lot of his information.


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## gopro (Jul 5, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> gopro
> 
> That's what I've been trying to say exactly. This is getting very interesting.
> 
> ...


ALR is best known for his two ground breaking books, Chemical Muscle Enhancement and Building the Perfect Beast. He also has a monthly column in MD magazine, and has written hundreds of articles for other mags. He is one of the most sought after "contest prep gurus" in the industry and also has a line of supplements. He is a genius plain and simple. Some of his ideas are radical and go against the grain, but he like Duchaine, will bring the world of "enhanced" bodybuilding to another level. If you ever were to speak with him it best to have a tape recorder or you will miss 75% of what you could learn.


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## sentricyphen (Jul 5, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> For a beginner a good stack that most of my friends started out with & still use even now is Sustanon 250 a blend of 4 testosterones, some deca durabolin (nandralone decanoate), & maybe some Winstrol depot injectable.
> 
> This will give very good size with good muscle hardness especially from the deca & winstrol & the fact Sustanon 250 doesn't give as much water retention as say Suspension would.
> 
> ...


I've been body building for 2 years and "lifting" for a total of 3.


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## newbie69 (Nov 6, 2007)

*Sustanon 250 with androil?? or Dianabol i cant decide??*

*ok can some1 help me decide asap please, i need to know if i can stack sustanon 250 with androil it looks amazing on paper but have not heard of anyone who has done it???

 i already know that sustanon stacks well with d-bol.. WHICH ONE DO I USE????

sustanon 250 + androil or 
Sust 250 with d-bol?????


       

PLEASE RESPOND ASAP*


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## franco9112 (Nov 6, 2007)

sentricyphen , from beginner to beginner, i'd suggest nothing more than 500mg test E per week for 8-10 weeks. I ran that cycle as my first and just started the same one again as my second - gains are solid and sides aren't bad. PCT included HCG on cycle and Clomid two weeks after the last shot of test


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