# Need To Blast My Arms



## tommyguns (Mar 29, 2002)

Hey, I'm looking for a sure fire routine to blast the hell outa my arms.  I'm 17 years old, and my arms are stuck at around 16- 17 inches.  I currently train my biceps after chest, and my triceps after shoulders.  I am going to switch to training biceps and triceps together on their own day.  I was planing on doing 4 different  supersets for 3 sets each.  What are spme great excercises i could use to superset, and does this sound like a good routine to add size to my arms??  Any great routiens for arms would be appreciated.  Thanks


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## realdeal (Mar 29, 2002)

right now since you are 17, you have to change your routine every 3 weeks to see what kind of scheme works with your body.  Hopefully u have a good foundation from doing a couple yrs of basic training with heavy weights.  between the age of 18-22 that is when your testosterone is at its highest and you get to grow fast.  If u keep on changing your routine AND writing down your measurements..... by the time your 21 you should know what type of training whether it be low reps, high reps, drop sets and so on works for you.  I'm telling you try everything, try every Weider principal there is,  how do u think Jay Cutler got to be so big its because of trying out every workout there is out there until you hit the jackpot, THEN my friend you will Break growth Barriers.

thanks bro


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## bubbasr (Mar 30, 2002)

I found that a day of rest in between workouts help to make you grow better. I agree with realdeal try everything see what works best for you,also for each workout change the way your set's rotate. Such as seated dumbell curl's/ ez bar curl's/ hammer curl's/ preacher curl's. The next time you do bi's change the order,this way the muscle will not get used to a routine. I also change my bi's and tri's routine up every other workout. Get into a lot of reading Flex/ Muscle and fitness/ Musclemag listen to the pro's.
GOOD LUCK!!!!


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## Scotty the Body (Mar 30, 2002)

Best thing for arm growth........Squats and Deads!!!  

I believe that your arms will grow in proportion to your body, so make sure your working your WHOLE body not just your arms and chest. 
You should make sure you have the following in your arm workouts:

BB curl
Preacher curl
Hammer curl

Narrow grip bench
skull crushers
push downs

You can do many variations of these using BB DB and cables, don't forget the Tri's make up 2/3 of your arm and YOU WON'T GROW WITHOUT PROPER REST AND DIET!!!!!


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## gopro (Mar 30, 2002)

See my routine in the "plateau" thread here in the training forum!


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## Robboe (Mar 31, 2002)

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read fookin flex?!!!!!

Read fookin M&F?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Listen to the pros?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jay Cutler got big from switching things up?!!!!!!!!!!!!

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## gopro (Mar 31, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Read fookin flex?!!!!!
> ...




Chicken...seriously dude...do you think that I have come to my conclusions by reading flex of M&F, or trusting the pros? C'mon man...I have tried EVERY system in existence...GVT, Heavy Duty, POF, Gironda, full body training, high sets, low sets, high reps, low reps, super slow, explosive, etc, etc, etc.....

I have been lucky enough to have my own lab and my own lab rats...my gym and my clients, not to mention myself...to find out what works, what REALLY works for the majority of people. What produces the best size and strength gains, as well as the best athletic achievement...and what I preach IS IT.

Gosh...Paul and Chris really have you brainwashed  If you don't agree with me then just train your way, ok?


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## Robboe (Mar 31, 2002)

Mr 'Pro seems to think i have a vendetta against him.

Where, in this thread, have you made reference to pro BBers or any magazines? (except the above post)

Exactly, you didn't. Hence, my post was not directed at you, although you should have corrected the lad by telling him that pros are predominatly clueless and that magazines won't aid you in getting big. (unless you do drugs).

That is all.


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## tommyguns (Mar 31, 2002)

I do train my whole body and in fact have competed in some local powerlifting events and even won a few.  I just wanted to focus a little time and alot of effort on building my arms up.  Dont let y age fool you, im very serious and dedicated, and i pretty much stick to the basics, i just want to change things around for a little bit


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## sKullKnot (Mar 31, 2002)

bi's are for show
tri's are for go


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## gopro (Mar 31, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Mr 'Pro seems to think i have a vendetta against him.
> 
> Where, in this thread, have you made reference to pro BBers or any magazines? (except the above post)
> ...



Yes you do


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## bubbasr (Mar 31, 2002)

Gopro it was directed at me for saying to read alot and listen to Pro's. But you know what the more you read the more you learn and what works for one might not work for another.
Why are we reading the post's on this site? For the heck of it or to learn more.


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## gopro (Apr 1, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by bubbasr *_
> Gopro it was directed at me for saying to read alot and listen to Pro's. But you know what the more you read the more you learn and what works for one might not work for another.
> Why are we reading the post's on this site? For the heck of it or to learn more.



Well, you never know with Chicken Daddy...he has alot of venom to spew


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## Robboe (Apr 1, 2002)

I read the posts on this site to see how much i can annoy Mr 'Pro here.

It's fun


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## gopro (Apr 1, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> 
> 
> Well, you never know with Chicken Daddy...he has alot of venom to spew



By the way...I like how you call me "Mr 'Pro."


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## Robboe (Apr 1, 2002)

I respect my elders. 


(it's just the old grandads that i mock muwhahahaha haha j/k )


btw, you're going for a pro card soon are you not?


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## gopro (Apr 1, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I respect my elders.
> 
> 
> ...



You should respect your elders...many of us have wisdom that you can only hope to attain one day...so listen up!

As for my pro card...yes, if I can work it in to my life this year, I plan on doing a WNBF super pro qualifier this September.


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## Robboe (Apr 2, 2002)

Good luck.


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## gopro (Apr 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Good luck.



Just hope that was sincere...if it was, then Thank you.


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## Robboe (Apr 2, 2002)

It was actually.


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## gopro (Apr 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> It was actually.



Well, then once again...thank you!


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## ActionMatt (Apr 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> 
> I have been lucky enough to have my own lab and my own lab rats...my gym and my clients, not to mention myself...to find out what works, what REALLY works for the majority of people. What produces the best size and strength gains, *as well as the best athletic achievement*...and what I preach IS IT.



I listen to guys who've been doing it a lot longer than you have, and they disagree with what you say. I can document the results of my sources in the records of Olympic sports, powerlifting competitions, and various similar events. You've got to give me something to work with if you expect to be taken seriously.

Regarding the bolded statement: Do you advocate your bodybuilding methods for athletic performance as well?


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## Scotty the Body (Apr 2, 2002)

*You've got to give me something to work with if you expect to be taken seriously. *

What part of Gopro's responses don't you agree with??? 

I think Gopro's advice is very sound, but I still take he and any others advice and make my own decisions. Just because Arnold or anyone else says something works or doesn't work doesn't make it law.


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## ActionMatt (Apr 2, 2002)

That's the whole point, Scotty. When he claims something like using various exercises to shape a muscle, its not law.

However, I'm very willing to listen to anyone who can back up their ideas with proven science. Mr. 'Pro has chosen to disregard any scientifically-oriented argument for the "I am superior so I don't care what you say, listen to ME" argument.

That does nothing to convince me, and it should do nothing to convince *anyone.*


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## Arnold (Apr 2, 2002)

Actually, gopro's argument is experience is more important than the scientific research you're reading in the books when it comes to bodybuilding.


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## gopro (Apr 2, 2002)

Ok Action Matt...I've got a couple of things to say to you...

First to answer your question, no I do not train my athletes the same way I train my bodybuilders. Athletes have a whole other set of goals and require a different training strategy. I also do not train my elderly clients like my teens, or the women like the men, or a basketball player like a wrestler.

Second...I have NEVER EVER said once ANYWHERE that I am better or superior to anyone else. I do not say listen to me and discount what everyone else says. All I do say is that I have taken a very long time to come to my methodolgy. I have dedicated the better part of my life to health/fitness/nutrition etc. I am willing to share what I have learned with anyone and everyone...even those I compete against. And if I did not know for sure whether what I say has worked wonders for me and my hundreds of clients over the years, than I WOULD NOT SAY IT! 

I will say it again. Science should not be ignored. Science has its place and I read all the journals just like you. But science will never replace REAL WORLD EVIDENCE and REAL WORLD RESULTS.

If I wanted to visit the jungles of Africa, would I read a book on the subject...maybe, but then I'd hire an experienced guide, someone who has been there, experienced the sights, the smells...knows the dangers, what to look for, what to avoid...someone that can really SHOW ME THE WAY around in the safest, most efficient way possible!

So, thats what I am...a guide...a pretty f'n big one!


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## tommyguns (Apr 2, 2002)

School him Gopro.  My science is studied in the trenches, under massive iron with sweat pouring like a fukin foutain.  I try alot of different things, but what i've found is that the basics are the staples of bodybuilding, and those who forget about them learn the hard way.  Thanks for all the great advice


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## Neil (Apr 2, 2002)

I agree you should steer clear of the musclemags, one of the biggest lifting mistakes I've made was opening one of those. Eat lots, squat and keep the volume at about 5-6 sets of high intensity direct bi/tri work.


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## gopro (Apr 3, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by tommyguns *_
> School him Gopro.  My science is studied in the trenches, under massive iron with sweat pouring like a fukin foutain.  I try alot of different things, but what i've found is that the basics are the staples of bodybuilding, and those who forget about them learn the hard way.  Thanks for all the great advice



I hear ya buddy...I'm trying, I'm trying...


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## ZECH (Apr 3, 2002)

I'll say again today what I did yesterday in another post.......If you newbies think you know everything and want to argue with the mods, why in the hell did you ask the question in the first place??? If you don't agree, go somewhere else! Geesh!!!!!!!!!


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## ActionMatt (Apr 3, 2002)

Maybe you misunderstand me-- most of my info comes from strength coaches who's time in the trenches IS most of the current scientific literature. Their empirical experience in coaching many sports was also translated into research.

Granted, my sources don't entirely disagree with you, and neither do I. I just think there are a lot better ways to do things than to worry oneself with what limited "shaping" effect might be available. The switching exercises thing doesn't bother me as much; I don't think its a large an issue, though the reasoning behind it seems somewhat flawed.

All in all, I guess my biggest beef is with the Guru attitude- listen to me and no one else. I don't like that at all. Presenting a viewpoint is one thing, but trying to present yourself as infallible and far more experienced than anyone else is something I always argue with. I understand you've got some financial stake in this as well, but even so, I don't like the listen to me because I'm right and you're wrong attitude.


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## Scotty the Body (Apr 3, 2002)

I believe the topic is *Need To Blast My Arms* Lets keep our comments on that please.


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## bubbasr (Apr 3, 2002)

Boy did I open a can of worms or what? All I said was read any and every thing to get some ideas or routines that people have used. Right now I am doing one of  Jay Cutlers Shoulder workout's.


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## gopro (Apr 3, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ActionMatt *_
> Maybe you misunderstand me-- most of my info comes from strength coaches who's time in the trenches IS most of the current scientific literature. Their empirical experience in coaching many sports was also translated into research.
> 
> Granted, my sources don't entirely disagree with you, and neither do I. I just think there are a lot better ways to do things than to worry oneself with what limited "shaping" effect might be available. The switching exercises thing doesn't bother me as much; I don't think its a large an issue, though the reasoning behind it seems somewhat flawed.
> ...



Action Matt...
-I have NO financial stake in this whatsoever. Mt training business has nothing to do with this site at all. Nothing I write has one iota to do with making money.
-Although there are many that like to call me a "guru," I just laugh at it. I never said I am infallible or allknowing...who do you think that I think I am..Paul Stagg or something?
-Yes, I know my stuff, but I am still learning just like any other "expert"  on this earth.

for you Scotty: blast those arms!


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## ZECH (Apr 3, 2002)

Strength training and bodybuilding are two entirely different aspects, with different exercises. Scotty, how are the arms going????


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## Robboe (Apr 3, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by bubbasr *_
> Right now I am doing one of  Jay Cutlers Shoulder workout's.



We need a thumbs down emicon. This really is the worst thing you could do man.

Oh and dg906:

"Strength training and bodybuilding are two entirely different aspects, with different exercises"


They're not as different as you'd think bro.


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## Neil (Apr 3, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by bubbasr *_
> Right now I am doing one of  Jay Cutlers Shoulder workout's.




I agree with Chicken, I think this is a bad idea. I'm assuming it's probably 16-20 sets and will work if you only train shoulders once a week and no other bodyparts. Jay Cutler is HIGHLY drug enhanced and his and other pro's workouts are not suited for the average joe. Don't make the same mistake I did when I started lifting by attempting these routines. Stick to a low volume/high intensity routine and you will grow. If I hadn't wasted so much time trying the musclemag stuff I would probably be 10-15 lbs. bigger and much stronger by now. I don't mean to sound like I'm preaching but I just hate to see someone make the same mistake I made. I wish someone had told me this when I was a newbie.


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## Neil (Apr 3, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Oh and dg906:
> 
> "Strength training and bodybuilding are two entirely different aspects, with different exercises"
> ...



I also agree with this, there is a difference although it is very minor.


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## Mystic Eric (Apr 4, 2002)

Mr. Pro, do not get me wrong, you have an awesome physique.  Truly awesome.  However, just to prove you wrong about something, I'll have to go back to your latest pic:







You said in the Q&A that in *your* experience, there's you have added to your "upper" chest.  You also said: 
"Over time this can develop into what I call "droopy pec syndrome." Although it has been hottly debated in the field of exercise as to whether the clavicular pectoralis can be selectively targeted, it is my experience that various forms of the incline press will indeed help fill in this portion of the chest."

Ok, according to basic physiology, you can't make your "upper" chest grow more than your "lower." You preach that your "real world" experience proves that you can indeed target your upper chest.  Fine, let's go by your experience... But it seems to me in that pic that you don't have an "upper chest" and if anything, your "lower chest" is larger.  This makes your comment about using inclines to target upper chest false.  So if basic physiology inferrs that the upper chest cannot be isolated, and your experience shows it, we have to conclude that one cannot "isolate" the upper chest.

Btw Mr. Pro, I have the highest respect for you.  It's just that some of your views are flawed.  Good luck with your contest.

Prince, I want to know something, what are your stats, and how much can you deadlift, squat, and bench in legal fashion?


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## gopro (Apr 4, 2002)

Thank you M Eric for the compliments, however, this picture is one in which you cannot judge my upper chest. Because of the angle of the pic and the fact that my pec was completely relaxed, you can't make that determination. If you saw a pic of a side chest shot, you would see how well my lower and upper chest are balanced. Also, I would like to point out that although I know a certain amount of muscle shaping IS POSSIBLE, it is NOT UNLIMITED. It can only be done within your own genetic limitations. PERFECT balance may never be achieved, but in order to get the best balance possible FOR YOU, multiple grips, angles, and exercises ARE needed.


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## gopro (Apr 4, 2002)

By the way, if you wish to see an old...I think 99 also, side chest shot, I'll ask Prince to post one. I don't really like the pic, but it does give you a more accurate shot of my chest.


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## ZECH (Apr 4, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Strength training and bodybuilding are two entirely different aspects, with different exercises.



OK...let me rephrase it a little bit. If you want to gain strength, do you do exercises the same way you would if you want to gain size? Read my sig line!!


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## gopro (Apr 4, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> 
> 
> OK...let me rephrase it a little bit. If you want to gain strength, do you do exercises the same way you would if you want to gain size? Read my sig line!!



They will jump on you for that too...trust me my friend


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## ZECH (Apr 4, 2002)

That's ok! What do you think GP??


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## ZECH (Apr 4, 2002)

I truely believe strictness and form mean more than how much your able to do!


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## gopro (Apr 4, 2002)

Although lifting more weight in perfect form is important, it is only one of many factors that can contribute to hypertrophy. And as your lifting career goes on, lifting heavy becomes less important.


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## ZECH (Apr 4, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> . And as your lifting career goes on, lifting heavy becomes less important.



Why is this??


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## gopro (Apr 4, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> 
> 
> Why is this??



Well, evetually you will reach a genetic limitation as far as strength goes. Also, at some point your connective tissue simply will not tolerate the heavy beating that max weights give. At this point you will need to find other ways to overload the muscles to stimulate hypertrophy gains. I do not lift quite as heavy now as I did years ago, but I keep gaining size. I use other stategies now to keep growing.


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## Neil (Apr 4, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> 
> 
> They will jump on you for that too...trust me my friend



Well I'm not going to jump on anyone. I'm only speaking from my experience. I just recently completed a 10 week strength training cycle and I gained 4lbs of LBM, and managed to drop 6lbs of fat at the same time. I do think they are different, but not THAT different. If you are talking about an all out powerlifting routine then yes there is a fairly large difference, but to just increase strength in general I think the difference is small. Now in the case of a very advanced trainee like yourself I think you are right about pounages becoming less important. But for the beginner to intermediate trainee the best way to monitor gains is through monitoring progression.


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## gopro (Apr 4, 2002)

Absolutely Neil...thats why I said EVENTUALLY. It will take at least 10 years to get to that point. However, I do think that trainees get too caught up in the numbers game. They will sacrifice form for weight and/or will perform the reps too quickly, using momentum rather than creating TENSION in the muscle. People also must remember that sets that only contain 1-5 reps WILL not create much muscle...hypertrophy is gained with higher time under tension. Although, I do advocate periods of pure power training.


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## ActionMatt (Apr 4, 2002)

_*Originally posted by gopro *_
*Absolutely Neil...thats why I said EVENTUALLY. It will take at least 10 years to get to that point. However, I do think that trainees get too caught up in the numbers game.*

Physical loading (weight) is the basis of muscular growth. I'd say watching the numbers is a good idea.

*They will sacrifice form for weight and/or will perform the reps too quickly, using momentum rather than creating TENSION in the muscle.*

While I agree that cheating is a bad thing, you're assessment of momentum vs. tension is wrong. Momentum is mass*velocity; its present in any muscle action that isn't isometric. Tension is force produced by the muscle. Even if an excessive level of momentum propels the weight, what generated that momentum? Muscular tension.

Don't forget that ballistic methods have been shown to generate considerable hypertrophy, including in myself.

*People also must remember that sets that only contain 1-5 reps WILL not create much muscle...hypertrophy is gained with higher time under tension.  *

Then why has it been shown in Olympic lifters that use multiple sets of 1-3 reps can create significant hypertrophy? Why could I go into the gym and perform sets of 5 at 75% of my max in a lift and grow (which I've done)?

Sorry to doubt you, but I've been involved in a detailed discussion with Dr. Siff about this very topic recently, and some interesting points where raised.......there is a minimal threshold tension required in the TUT theory, but the minimal time value seems to either decrease as tension increases, or is a cumulative value of all sets.

We haven't come to anything conclusive about *why* this happens, though my speculation was that it has to do with ATP depletion and the consequential fatigue in the highest-threshold MU's which are involved in heavy ballistic loading.

This doesn't necessarily mean heavy weight, either-- accelerating a weight also creates tension (hence throwing the momentum argument out the window), and apparently it can be significant enough to cause hypertrophy.


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## Robboe (Apr 5, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ActionMatt *_
> [Don't forget that ballistic methods have been shown to generate considerable hypertrophy, including in myself.



So how come you're such a skinny bitch? 


haha nice post.


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## gopro (Apr 5, 2002)

Action Matt...you know what? I have decided you are right...about everything! I really have no idea what I'm talking about. I really have no idea how to gain muscle. I mean, I've only gained 130 lbs of lean body mass since I started...maybe if I started listening to you I could put on some real muscle...

...oh boy, don't you think this is getting old...


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## Ron Jeremy (Apr 5, 2002)

Arm growth is a mystery. Some grow from heavy Benches and back work only while others grow from a volume Bodybuilding routine. Much of the advice that has been given makes scientific sense but ,in all actuality, you must find what works for you and remember to work out very hard.


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## Neil (Apr 5, 2002)

Action Matt eh........if you are who I think you are I can't help but wonder why you don't use your normal username.


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## ActionMatt (Apr 5, 2002)

Gopro-- So, now you're slipping into personal arguments again. I was just presenting an alternate viewpoint. But, if your experience conflicts with basic physiology, I apologize and will stop posting facts.

Why don't you contribute your experience to the publishers of physiology texts so that they can correct the errors?


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## Neil (Apr 5, 2002)

I'd listen to an experienced lifter before I listened to some 130 physio.


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## gopro (Apr 5, 2002)

Maybe I will


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## ActionMatt (Apr 5, 2002)

Neil-- why are you making the assumption that the sources I quote are stereotypical 130 lb science geeks in lab coats?

Most strength researchers are avid lifters themselves, with many being quite accomplished. Exercise science is a different field, in that it tends to attract those that already have some interest in weight training. I think you'd be suprised at how many of these pencil-neck geeks as you put it would be able to pick you up and break you in half.


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## Robboe (Apr 5, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ActionMatt *_
> Why don't you contribute your experience to the publishers of physiology texts so that they can correct the errors?




I lmao@this.

That is all.


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## gopro (Apr 5, 2002)

Action...it may interest you to know that much of my college education was spent studying physiology, kinesiology, genetics, anatomy, and exercise science...this was along with my studies of psychology. My goal was to mesh mind and body, as the two are inseperable. Since I have been a trainer/strength coach I have spent considerable time talking with many "higher ups" in the field...so much of what you've been taught, I have already heard. Just telling you this to make you aware that although I base much of what I preach on experience in the trenches, I also have the formal education as well.

As to your comments above...
- weight will eventually not be the major factor in gaining muscle as I have added 7 lbs a year my last 3 years without increasing a single lift...I have also done this with several of my over 40 clients
-momentum WILL decrease tension on the muscle...using these words in "layman's" terms. Your biceps will work harder to curl 100 lbs in perfect form than they will to "throw up" 150 lbs using momentum...remember, this is in everyday "gym" terms
-yes, muscle can be created with many sets of low reps, but this is an inefficient method if hypertrophy is your MAIN goal


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## Arnold (Apr 5, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> And as your lifting career goes on, lifting heavy becomes less important.



I agree, you become more prone to injuries. I am speaking from first hand experience!


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## ActionMatt (Apr 5, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> As to your comments above...
> - weight will eventually not be the major factor in gaining muscle as I have added 7 lbs a year my last 3 years without increasing a single lift...I have also done this with several of my over 40 clients
> -momentum WILL decrease tension on the muscle...using these words in "layman's" terms. Your biceps will work harder to curl 100 lbs in perfect form than they will to "throw up" 150 lbs using momentum...remember, this is in everyday "gym" terms



Mr. 'Pro, I'm not arguing your education or experience. That's not my goal.

As for the above comments--  so what if momentum is used? The tension, and quite a bit of it, is till generated, is it not? It has to come from somewhere. In fact, you can easily create more tension than the load itself would be capable of if the load is accelerated-- Force = mass*acceleration.

Has anything I've said so far been incorrect, regarding muscle action and force (tension) generated?

Additionally, who says that momentum removes tension? I've got several studies (gasp) done in Oly lifters showing that tension is not lessened during ballistic-style lifting.

Now, if larger amounts of tension are being generated over similar time intervals via acceleration, why wouldn't your own TUT argument hold true?

I'm not advocating cheating, which I know is your point, but arguing that higher relative loads at higher speeds can and do cause growth, despite "momentum."


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## Scotty the Body (Apr 5, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ActionMatt *_
> I'm not advocating cheating, which I know is your point, but arguing that higher relative loads at higher speeds can and do cause growth, despite "momentum."



I agree that it will cause growth but I think your also more likely to cause injury as well. I also think that the exercise done with slower more controled form will cause *better* growth than your ballistic-style lifting.


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## ActionMatt (Apr 5, 2002)

Better? Based on what?


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## Scotty the Body (Apr 5, 2002)

lol, just what I said "I think" hehehe

Through personal experience I've found that "Ballistic" type lifting has helped to build strength but I've always found that lifting with proper form has given me a better workout. 

Just my personal opinion AM, I'm not disputing what you've said.


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## Neil (Apr 5, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ActionMatt *_
> Neil-- why are you making the assumption that the sources I quote are stereotypical 130 lb science geeks in lab coats?
> 
> Most strength researchers are avid lifters themselves, with many being quite accomplished. Exercise science is a different field, in that it tends to attract those that already have some interest in weight training. I think you'd be suprised at how many of these pencil-neck geeks as you put it would be able to pick you up and break you in half.



Trust me Matt, I know some of these "pencil neck geeks" who could break me in half. I am not trying to start a pissing match here but you are becoming one of those not so big guys trying to tell everyone (including big guys) how to get big because you've read a few books. The stuff you have learned and presented is very impressive and I'll be the first to admit you know way more than me about physiology. But I'd be willing to bet our knowledge on how to get big is not that far apart. There is no substitute for experience in any field and bodybuilding is no exeption. I know people with physiology degrees who advocate changing exercises every 12 weeks and also think that it is important to use different angles to fully develope a muscle. I'd be willing to bet the reason they think this is because of their experience with lifting, and not their education. I realize you will probably discount be with some research you've read or some study and that's fine, I just think you shouldn't be so quick to tell people they are wrong just because a book tells you so. Like I said on WBB I have experienced a part of a muscle getting bigger from a different exercise angle and there is not a study out there that will change that.


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## Neil (Apr 5, 2002)

I do however agree with you that ballistic training generates more hypertophy. I have determined this through experience, of course.


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## Arnold (Apr 5, 2002)

ActionMatt, will you at least post some pics to back up you infinite knowledge of bodybuilding, that might lend some credibilty to your posts.

I would just like to see the type of physique that you have built using your superior knowledge in training.

The reason I ask for this is because I have a problem with all of these "internet gurus" like you and others such as Cackerot that are so educated in muscle physiology and every other subject that pertains to bodybuilding, yet you refuse to show us a picture.

Are you going to reply to this telling me that you have only been training for a short period of time and have not built a quality physique that is worthy of displaying? Yes, you proabably will, as have several others that have come here arguing with people such as gopro.


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## ActionMatt (Apr 5, 2002)

If I were a bodybuilder, I'd be more than happy to. Unfortunately, as a powerlifter and Olympic lifter, I doubt you'd be too impressed with my physique. Oh, I'm muscular, but my BF is probably too high for you to take me seriously with a physique pic. I've only been lifting about 3 1/2 years myself, and came from a small frame, but I've managed to do all right in that time period.

My bodybuilding advice is based on what I use during foundational periods of mass-training that precede strength and power phases.


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## ZECH (Apr 5, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ActionMatt *_
> 
> I'm not advocating cheating, which I know is your point, but arguing that higher relative loads at higher speeds can and do cause growth, despite "momentum."




And inevitably injuries!!!!!


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## ZECH (Apr 5, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ActionMatt *_
> We haven't come to anything conclusive about *why* this happens, though my speculation was that it has to do with ATP depletion and the consequential fatigue in the highest-threshold MU's which are involved in heavy ballistic loading.
> 
> To build muscle, you don't want to deplete ATP, You want more to stay in the muscle so you can fatigue it! If you run out of ATP your muscle is out of energy and you can no longer stress the muscle you do it no good! Am I not right???



I lmao@this also TCD.........


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## bubbasr (Apr 5, 2002)

WOW that was alot of reading to catch up with what one person asked about blasting his arms. I also am not as educated as some, but I know how my body type reacts to certain workout's. I do read what the pro's do to work certain muscle's 
but I do not take supplement's. I am a Diabetc and watch every thing I eat. So I can not overload on carbs or protein not fun. I am doing one of Jay Cutlers shoulder workout's but not doing 20
rep's try 8 to 10. I do agree with the proper form comment it's not how much you can lift but how you lift. I have been working 
out on and off for over 20 years and will be 45 this month. I have a friend who owns a gym and is a personal trainer, he also used to compete. He has helped me out over the years. Another friend 
I haven't worked out with in about 4 to 5 years also competed at the local level, he also has been a great help. So some of what I do is from these two people and some is trial and error. And yes some from reading book's,magazine's and on line info. But we all 
have a common interest in building muscle for whatever the reason might be. SO LET'S KEEP TO THE SUBJECT!!!


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## ActionMatt (Apr 5, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> We haven't come to anything conclusive about *why* this happens, though my speculation was that it has to do with ATP depletion and the consequential fatigue in the highest-threshold MU's which are involved in heavy ballistic loading.
> 
> To build muscle, you don't want to deplete ATP, You want more to stay in the muscle so you can fatigue it! If you run out of ATP your muscle is out of energy and you can no longer stress the muscle you do it no good! Am I not right???



Well, since hypertrophy is most likely caused by lack of muscle cell's ability to sustain protein anabolism against not only the natural catabolism of the muscle, but that caused by lifting weights, I'd have to say that using up the ATP supply would be a good thing, and that no, you aren't right.

But that did just give me a bit of inspiration to fill in a gap, there. Thanks for that.


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## Arnold (Apr 5, 2002)

I see that you ignored my post ActionMatt!


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## ActionMatt (Apr 5, 2002)

Did I, Prince?




> _*Originally posted by ActionMatt *_
> If I were a bodybuilder, I'd be more than happy to. Unfortunately, as a powerlifter and Olympic lifter, I doubt you'd be too impressed with my physique. Oh, I'm muscular, but my BF is probably too high for you to take me seriously with a physique pic. I've only been lifting about 3 1/2 years myself, and came from a small frame, but I've managed to do all right in that time period.
> 
> My bodybuilding advice is based on what I use during foundational periods of mass-training that precede strength and power phases.


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## Arnold (Apr 5, 2002)

sorry, I missed that post.

but, as I figured you gave an excuse to why you won't post a pic.


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## ActionMatt (Apr 5, 2002)

I'll put one up if you'd like. 

My point is that it probably won't prove anything to you.


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## gopro (Apr 5, 2002)

Action...I only need to understand one of your points...are you trying to say that you think that by cheating during a movement...like say leaning back during barbell curls or swinging dumbells up during side laterals...that you will AS effectively overlaod the target muscle if you were to lift a lesser weight but in perfect form?


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## Mystic Eric (Apr 6, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Neil *_
> I'd listen to an experienced lifter before I listened to some 130 physio.



Perhaps you should find out how world re-known these sources that Matt has gained knowledge from.

Go pro, Matt is not talking about swinging your back back and forth doing curls.  I think the bollistic movements that he is talking about are cleans, jerks, speed benches, and those type of fun things.


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## Robboe (Apr 6, 2002)

Yeah, he's big on Olympic lifts eh?


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## gopro (Apr 6, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Mystic Eric *_
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should find out how world re-known these sources that Matt has gained knowledge from.
> ...



Well, if that IS what he's talking about then he'd be foolish to think that they will produce the type of hypertrophy that slow controlled BBing exercises will bring.


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## ActionMatt (Apr 6, 2002)

I'm not talking specifically about Olympic lifts. They certainly can't develop the entire body to the needs of a competitive BBer.

But look at their traps. Their glutes and hams. Lower back. They aren't exactly small.

My point about cheat form doesn't mean to go berserk. However, *in some cases* using somewhat less than perfect form can be beneficial simply to expose the muscle to greater overload. Not saying it should be a mainstay of training by any means, but an effective tool.

Now, more relevant to my point. Slow, controlled will build size. But so will explosive and controlled if the weight (or total tension generated) is high enough. You can't tell me that doing 8-10 sets of your 3RM in an exercise won't cause growth. Or that doing 5x5 @ 75% as fast as you can move the bar won't.


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## Scotty the Body (Apr 6, 2002)

From what I can tell, the argument is what will cause *better* growth, Slow and Controlled or Explosive. 

So what do you think Matt?


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## ActionMatt (Apr 6, 2002)

Honestly, I don't know. As a PLer and someone on the whole who isn't that concerned with muscle tissue, I can say that I've achieved growth from both methods.

The extensive bodybuilding approach is tried and true, yes. But so is the explosive approach, albeit not in an orthodox setting; it has certainly shown itself capable of causing growth. I think its more about the application of the methods than about whether or not an individual or category of individuals are "big." Oly lifters aren't "big" because they don't specifically work on every muscle group. Same for powerlifters, although there is much higher carryover-- a great many PLers have very nice physiques, as well.

It certainly bears further exploration before out and out dismissing it.


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## Robboe (Apr 6, 2002)

By "better" you mean quicker right?


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## maki@wbb (Apr 6, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ActionMatt *_
> 
> I think its more about the application of the methods than about whether or not an individual or category of individuals are "big."
> 
> It certainly bears further exploration before out and out dismissing it.



*** Well said.
You can't pick one method and claim that it's the most superior method out there. Like Matt explained it takes the know how of when and for how long each method should be applied.


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## Scotty the Body (Apr 6, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by maki@wbb *_
> You can't pick one method and claim that it's the most superior method out there. Like Matt explained it takes the know how of when and for how long each method should be applied.


I agree.


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## gopro (Apr 6, 2002)

Well Action...in a sense I was not reading you correctly. If what you are saying is that some occasional explosive lifts in good form can be good for BBing as well, than I do agree. Pushing big weight as fast as possible concentrically, and then fighting the negative on the way down can produce nice results.

In my cycle training method that I have described here several times, my 1st week is what I call power week. In this week I will use basically all compound lifts in a rep range of 3-6, lifting as explosively as possible while controlling the decent in anywhere from 3-6 seconds. 

And while I always keep my form tight, I will allow myself to loosen up somewhat on the last rep or two during this week.


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