# Better Stock up on Ephedra Now!



## mrguy (Dec 30, 2003)

WASHINGTON ??? The Bush administration plans to ban the herbal dietary supplement ephedra (search), government officials said Tuesday.

Full Article:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,106956,00.html

What's Next!!


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## I Are Baboon (Dec 30, 2003)

Bummer for ephedra users!

Can't people just get it from Canada or Mexico now?


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 30, 2003)

It's also banned in canada.


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## Mudge (Dec 30, 2003)

Ephedra sucks anyway, I always liked ephedrine.


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## mrguy (Dec 30, 2003)

Since ephedrine is a dereviative of ephedra, all classes will now be banned in the US. This includes Ma Huang, all the diet stuff with alkaloids, everything.

1. ephedrine -- (white odorless powdered or crystalline alkaloid from plants of the genus Ephedra (especially Ephedra sinica) or made synthetically; used as a bronchodilator to treat bronchitis and asthma)

They have got nothing better to do in the Bush administration, so now their going after making the world safe for idiots who don't know how to read warning labels.


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## Mudge (Dec 30, 2003)

Sucks doesn't it  bummer.


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## Arnold (Dec 30, 2003)

> ...Ephedra has been linked to as many as 100 deaths...



WOW! 

How many deaths do alcohol and cigarettes cause per year?


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> WOW!
> 
> How many deaths do alcohol and cigarettes cause per year?




exactly!


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## I Are Baboon (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> WOW!
> 
> How many deaths do alcohol and cigarettes cause per year?




But alcohol is FUN!


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## Stickboy (Dec 30, 2003)

Ahhh, but cigarettes and alcohol are the big $$$$$ makers.  

Perhaps they should be banned, but there's to much money at stake and in todays world it's all about money.


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## JerseyDevil (Dec 30, 2003)

That's ok, you can use amphetamines instead since their readily available, and a lot more dangerous.  j/k


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## Mudge (Dec 30, 2003)

When some kid takes an entire bottle of ephedrine you know its going to turn out bad, so why are the rest of us punished for a few idiots? You can overdose on alcohol just as easily.


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## KataMaStEr (Dec 30, 2003)

I only take Ephedrine on rare occasions when I really need a boost for my workout. I bought one bottle of ProLab Therma Pro about a year ago and I have used probably only about 15 capsules. About banning cigarettes and alcohol they are just not going to do it, there it way too much money involved there. And really how many of us want alcohol to be banned seriously? Not likely


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## Mudge (Dec 30, 2003)

Thats why prohibition failed, too many people drink.


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## Power Rabbit (Dec 30, 2003)

well time to jump to adderall :-/


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## Power Rabbit (Dec 30, 2003)

actully now that i think of it...if they drop ephedra then they might turn away intrest from the supplement industry and leav PH in tact....

for example gnc wont carry ephedra these days .....yet they carry phoromones...the media dosent know too much about PH and dont make a big stink about em..hell if it wasnt for a dumbass or too they would not have cared about ephera....


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## jaydawg73 (Dec 30, 2003)

guess its time to go back to the pre ritual 2 "chronic" puffs before the gym .. if i am goin to do osmething illegal might as well do something that will get me somewhere...  looks like i will have to get ephedra the same way as the "chronic".. since the goverment dont like either... bitches


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## Twin Peak (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Power Rabbit *_
> actully now that i think of it...if they drop ephedra then they might turn away intrest from the supplement industry and leav PH in tact....



Yeah, that might happen.


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## Mudge (Dec 30, 2003)

www.usfa.biz


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 30, 2003)

Unlike companies that make conventional drugs, dietary-supplement makers don't have to prove their products are safe and effective before marketing them. The FDA can take action only after it compiles enough proof that a product is a clear danger to public health.

At the same time, using the 100 deaths and the publicized death of the Orioles pitcher like Steve Bechler's death are a poor basis for government policy. Ephedra and pseudoephedrine have a long history of medical use and there's no reason to consider them especially dangerous.* The campaign against ephedrine is really a campaign to overturn the DSHEA* as Mudge is bringing to the fore with his link.  

However, it is the DSHEA that has allowed dietary and nutritional supplement manufacturers to get away with poor quality control of their products (they can put talc powder in capsules  and claim it's st john's wort ) and allow preposterous efficacy claims without clinical data (rather than testimonial claims) etc.  

However, we need a balance between the bureaucratic inertia of the FDA that would prevent valuable nutricals from reaching the the public and the wanton marketing practices that the DSHEA allows.  Don't know what the answer is.   Perhaps the answer might be something like the German Commission E ( a regulatory commission that  expeditiously looks and evaluates the herbal industry in Germany).


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## Mudge (Dec 30, 2003)

Used for thousands of years in China and its a problem here within a few years, doh.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> However, it is the DSHEA that has allowed dietary and nutritional supplement manufacturers to get away with poor quality control of their products (they can put talc powder in capsules  and claim it's st john's wort ) and allow preposterous efficacy claims without clinical data (rather than testimonial claims) etc.



Sorry, but that is a crock.  The FDA and FTC are fully capabable of cheacking and enforcing:

* label claims for accuracy, and
* marketing claims

under DSHEA and the various other laws.  DSHEA does none of what you claim in this paragraph, it simply puts the burden on FDA regarding safety and efficacy, as it should.

No company can lawfully fail to meet label claims (various federal and state laws prohibit such a practice) or make outrageous marketing claims.  

Does it happen?  Sure, but not because of DSHEA.


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## Mudge (Dec 30, 2003)

> Ephedra alkaloid content varied considerably among products. Total alkaloid content ranged from 0.0 to 18.5 mg per dosage unit.



http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cach...ticle/406883+ephedra+alkaloids&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Interesting page I ran into.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Sorry, but that is a crock.  The FDA and FTC are fully capabable of cheacking and enforcing:
> 
> * label claims for accuracy, and
> ...



But that's the point, by removing the power it enabled this to occur rampantly.  This fatally flawed legislation declared herbs to be dietary supplements, which most assuredly they are not. In doing so, Congress shifted the burden for proof of safety away from the manufacturer and to the F.D.A. Under this law, the F.D.A. must prove after the fact that a dietary supplement presents significant or unreasonable risk of injury. 

Even where overwhelming evidence of such injury exists, the F.D.A. lacks the staff and resources required to document its case in a court of law. Meanwhile, the public remains exposed to a dangerous dietary supplement. 

*Also, manufacturers of dietary supplements are not required to report serious adverse effects caused by their products to the F.D.A. *  This latter is how the DSHEA prevents the FDA from doing its job.  So no, it was not in the letter of the law, but it was what it would not require them to do that essentially set free a monster.

Trust me, I have no love for the FDA which binds our hands when it comes to great anticancer drugs coming down the pipeline but the DSHEA is not the answer.  There has to be a medium between the two.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> But that's the point, by removing the power it enabled this to occur rampantly.  This fatally flawed legislation declared herbs to be dietary supplements, which most assuredly they are not. In doing so, Congress shifted the burden for proof of safety away from the manufacturer and to the F.D.A. Under this law, the F.D.A. must prove after the fact that a dietary supplement presents significant or unreasonable risk of injury.
> 
> Even where overwhelming evidence of such injury exists, the F.D.A. lacks the staff and resources required to document its case in a court of law. Meanwhile, the public remains exposed to a dangerous dietary supplement.
> ...



You missed my point.  All of this has NOTHING to do with (1) meeting label claims and (2) outrageous marketing claims, which is what I harped on before.  

Your statements here are correct (re the DSHEA), though I disagree with your conclusions.  

Let me ask you this, how long does a drug take to come out? If supplements were treated like drugs, we'd essentially destroy the supplement market, and the biggest loser would be the consumer.

Realistically, how many deaths or injuries occur because of a dangerous "supplement"; hardly any.  I can think of a few dangerous supplements (sodium usinate/usinic acid) that hit the market, and all were removed pretty damn fast.  Don't forget the power of the civil plaintiff's bar who preys on such.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> You missed my point.  All of this has NOTHING to do with (1) meeting label claims and (2) outrageous marketing claims, which is what I harped on before.




I will provide data on this later. Many a chemists have randomly pulled drugs off reputable drugs off the shelves and anlayzed them spectrographically or organically and many came back bogus.




> Let me ask you this, how long does a drug take to come out? If supplements were treated like drugs, we'd essentially destroy the supplement market, and the biggest loser would be the consumer.




On average 15 years to complete phase I to phase IV clinical trials.  (This is preceded by at least 10 years of chemical and animal work)  So I agree, No arguments about the how it would devastate the supplement industy there.  But we are not asking nutriceuticals to carry out clinical trials, just basic reporting of adverse effects, like the fulminant liver failures caused by Kava kava picked up by the german commission e in germany.




> Realistically, how many deaths or injuries occur because of a dangerous "supplement"; hardly any.  I can think of a few dangerous supplements (sodium usinate/usinic acid) that hit the market, and all were removed pretty damn fast.  Don't forget the power of the civil plaintiff's bar who preys on such.



Kava, kava and fulminant liver failure,  dexatrim and subdural hematomas, etc etc.  will get links later.  since i am at work.   The latter regarding plaintiffs also apply to the prescription drug arena as wellwhere  many good drugs have been hapless  victims of  class action lawyers. 

I think you and I have some common ground but I advocate one between the current status quo of the FDA and dshe.


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 30, 2003)

U.S. Bans Ephedra, Drug Linked to Deaths  

4 hours ago   Listen to Audio  

By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer 

WASHINGTON - The federal government announced on Tuesday a ban on the sale of ephedra, an herbal supplement used for weight control that has been linked to a number of deaths and harmful side effects.

Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson said that "based on the best possible scientific evidence" his agency would issue a consumer alert about the dangers of ephedra and will send notices to manufacturers to stop selling the herbs.

"The time to stop taking this product is now," he said.

"They are just too risky to use," said the secretary.

Thompson said the decision was "well grounded" and based on extensive scientific study. The ban would take effect in 60 days.

"I don't want people turning to ephedra thinking they could lose weight," Thompson told a news conference.

Mark McClellan, head of the Food and Drug Administration, said his agency is notifying consumers and manufacturers that it will publish a rule making it illegal to sell and use ephedra.

He said the agency was concerned about young people and athletes looking to ephedra to boost their performance. Use of the supplement has led to serious health effects, he said.

"We're sending a strong and clear signal" that such products should come off the market, McClellan said.

McClellan said the FDA reviewed major studies of ephedra and publicly issued findings about the herb. He said the publication received thousands of comment and expressions of support for taking the product off the market.

The rule will go into effect in 60 days "and have the practical effect" of banning ephedra, he said.

"Ephedra raises your blood pressure and stresses your system," McClellan said. "There are far better, safer ways, to get in shape."

Critics called the federal crackdown too late. Sales nationwide already have plummeted because of publicity about roughly 155 deaths blamed on the amphetamine-like stimulant, including Baltimore Orioles baseball player Steve Bechler earlier this year. Ephedra is linked to heart attacks and strokes, even when used by outwardly healthy people at recommended doses, because it speeds heart rate and constricts blood vessels.

Ernie Bechler, Steve's father in Medford, Ore., said he was awakened by a phone call around 6 a.m. local time with word of the decision.

"It's the only thing that could make my wife and I be happy," he said. "Nothing else could have done what this is doing. I mean to get this off the market and to save other peoples' lives is just amazing to us."

Ernie Bechler testified in Congress, urging a ban. "That's the last thing I said: 'Please don't let my son die in vain.'"

At the news conference, McClellan said FDA has spent months "scouring all of the adverse effects reports." The decision was not based on adverse effects alone, he said, but also on clinical studies and expert opinion and review.

"It is the totality of the evidence" that was used to make the decision, McClellan said.

McClellan said the FDA was prepared to defend the action in court.

He said his agency was working as quickly as it can under the current law regulating diet supplements. "We are laying the strongest possible foundation to not only take the product off the market, but to keep it off," McClellan said.

Thompson said the agency "was crossing every 't' and dotting every 'i' " to make sure the action stands up in court. "We are taking every procedural accountability standard" to make sure the ban withstands court tests, he said.

McClellan said his agency has done extensive work to "make sure we can use all of our authority" to keep ephedra off the market.

Thompson said that three states already have banned ephedra and "this is the next giant step" in taking the supplement off the market.

New York, Illinois and California _ have passed their own ephedra bans; use has been banned in professional football, college athletics and minor-league baseball, and several retail chains, including supplement giant General Nutrition Centers, recently quit selling it, too.

"It's a dead product and unfortunately it has become a dead product over the backs of a lot of dead people when the FDA could have acted before," said Dr. Sidney Wolfe of the consumer advocacy group Public Citizen, which petitioned the government for a ban in 2001.

The supplement industry's Council for Responsible Nutrition said it didn't oppose a ban, noting that very few companies still make the stimulant _ its members who once did no longer do so.

"We think the reputable players have found so much controversy and difficulty in this marketplace that they've decided to get out of it," said CRN's John Hathcock. "We recognize the controversy is a cloud over our whole industry."

Remaining ephedra manufacturers didn't immediately comment Tuesday, but have insisted that studies prove their products safe when used properly.

"Anyone who has read our label knows that we go to great lengths to inform our customers about the proper use of our products," Metabolife International chief executive Russell Schreck said over the summer.

But several scientists said that it was impossible to prove whether ephedra was safe because studies screen out participants who have health problems _ the people most likely to be hurt by the product.

The General Accounting Office, Congress' investigative arm, looked into the issue and found many people who reported problems had followed the label's instructions.

The government ban, one of the first involving a dietary supplement, comes after Thompson this summer urged Congress to rewrite a law that rolled back dietary-supplement regulations and to require manufacturers to acknowledge potential side effects.

Because ephedra is an herb, U.S. law let it sell over-the-counter with little oversight unless the FDA could prove a clear danger to public health. Manufacturers blocked a 1997 FDA attempt to restrict sales of certain dosages and to put warning labels on the herb by arguing the agency lacked enough proof of danger.

In March, FDA again proposed those warnings and said it would re-examine a ban.


Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 30, 2003)

Regarding impurities and how label claims are still rampantly violated , of course these are regarding the herbals.


> Impurities and Adulterants
> Partly due to the lack of GMPs, some dietary supplements contain impurities and adulterants. When 260 Asian patent medicines sold in California retail herbal stores were analyzed, 14% contained arsenic (mean 14,553 ppm), 14% contained mercury (mean 1046 ppm), 10% contained lead (mean 55 ppm), and 7% contained undeclared drugs such as ephedrine, chlorpheniramine, and methyltestosterone.[8] The United States Pharmacopeia limits the amount of heavy metals in drugs to 30 ppm. Hibiscus tea contaminated with warfarin resulted in an INR of 11.5.[9] A product called Sleeping Buddha (imported and distributed from China by Treasure Box Products, Inc; Burnaby, B.B., Canada) contained estazolam.[10]
> Another problem with contamination came to light when supplements containing plantain used for "internal cleansing" resulted in digitalis toxicity; the products were contaminated with digitalis. When this was traced, it was found that 6000 pounds of plantain contaminated with Digitalis lanata were shipped from Germany to product manufacturers in the United States over 2 years.[11] Of 11 Chinese herbal creams used for dermatologic conditions, 8 (73%) contained dexamethasone at high concentrations (64-1500 µg/g, mean 456 µg/g), which most likely was responsible for their efficacy.[12] There are more similar reports in the literature. Unless GMP regulations are established, impurities and adulterants may continue to be present in dietary supplements.



http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/409637_4


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## Twin Peak (Dec 30, 2003)

Again, BAD, I agree its a problem, I disagree that THIS problem (impurities) stems from the DSHEA.


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## Monolith (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Ephedra sucks anyway, I always liked ephedrine.



I just stocked up, i suggest you do the same...

http://www.sann.net/ephedrine25.html


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## mrguy (Dec 30, 2003)

I worked in the health industry at one time and I can tell you if you know every thing that went into a LOT of products food included, you would quit eating everything.

This ban has nothing to do with safety. It's about do gooders putting their name on a high profile cause and trying to save idiots from themselves.

Smoking kills over 300,000 people per year. That is a proven fact yet you can buy them at any corner store.

The supplement industry does not have as powerful lobby or money base as the tobacco industry. Maybe the supplement companies need to fund a few politicians in the future to get them off their case.

Anything used in excess and wrong will kill you. Food included. Look at the obesity problems in this country. Will they start rationing food now to protect people who have no will power and can not stop eating? How long before idiots start overdosing and dying on Caffeine pills? 

The Government needs to let people suffer the fate of their own decisions and quite trying to save them from themselves because in the process we are ALL being stripped of our freedom to make our own decisions a little bit at a time.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> 
> Realistically, how many deaths or injuries occur because of a dangerous "supplement"; hardly any.  I can think of a few dangerous supplements (sodium usinate/usinic acid) that hit the market, and all were removed pretty damn fast.






> from Pharmacotherapy
> 
> Safety
> Serious adverse reactions with dietary supplements have been reported. The FDA may issue warnings to consumers and ask companies to issue a recall of a product, but manufacturers are not required to withdraw a product from the market unless it is shown to be an "imminent hazard" to consumers.[6] Carcinogenic herbs include borage, calamus, coltsfoot, life root, and sassafras.[22] Hepatotoxic herbs include chaparral, germander, jin bu huan, skullcap, margosa oil, and life root.[23,24] Licorice root (Glycyrrhiza glabra) can cause pseudoaldosteronism when taken in high dosages for long periods of time.[25] g-Butyrolactone resulted in at least 55 reported cases of adverse effects, including unconsciousness, seizures, coma, slow breathing, and death, resulting in an FDA warning and voluntary recall of products.[27] Triax Metabolic Accelerator (Syntrax Innovations, Cape Girardeau, MO), used for weight loss, contains the active ingredient triiodothyroacetic acid, which is a potent thyroid hormone. Several cases of abnormal thyroid function tests, severe diarrhea, lethargy, and profound weight loss were reported with the product.[28]
> Many known and potential drug interactions with herbs exist. Other adverse effects, drug interactions, and pharmacokinetic parameters are still often unknown. Safety is largely unproven in pregnant or lactating women, and most dietary supplements cannot be recommended in these women. Although dietary supplements can have adverse reactions, almost every pharmaceutical drug also has adverse effects. Unlike pharmaceutical companies, supplement manufacturers often lack personnel to obtain information on overdoses or adverse events. When side effects of specific dietary supplements are known, monitoring should occur during their use.




Mrguy is right, I have more of a problem with the continual legality of cigarettes.  But once again, I am just pointing out that I am against this broad based ban against ephedra but am showing how this ephedra ban  is a political sword being wielded by the two factions who see that there should be some middle ground between the all inclusive and inertial FDA and the current laxity of the supplement industry.   Once again, I propose we follow the German model which allows for some surveilance without losing the freedom gained by the public of intelligent nutrical users without resorting to the middleman of physicians or health care workers or else they will be overwhelmed and the nutrical industry would be inaccessible to the health conscious public.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/409637_10


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## gopro (Dec 30, 2003)

VPX has been selling Clenbutrx like mad today! Someone just ordered 400 bottles!!!!!!!!!


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## Arnold (Dec 30, 2003)

Junkies!!!


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 30, 2003)

The purpose of DSHEA was to correct the behavior and excesses of FDA, which it did with alacrity and astonishing force. Just as we demanded that FDA be held accountable, so now the supplemental industry is now being held accountable.


The fact of the matter is , DSHEA despite the terms outlined by Twin Peaks , has had so many loopholes,  (And i"m no legal guru so I can't figure out how it came to pass)  its current form and reality is now a wisp of its original intent as supplements continue to be tainted and claims of content matter still show inconsistancies.  Ephedra has become the poster child for the lobbyist's weapon.





http://pureprescriptions.com/expert_opinion/askthedoc/suplmt_qual_pt2.html


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## Leslie (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Monolith *_
> I just stocked up, i suggest you do the same...
> 
> http://www.sann.net/ephedrine25.html


$19.95

Mike has bottles of 60 for only $7 at www.1fast400.com


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## Mudge (Dec 30, 2003)

http://www.sann.net/ephedrine25.html

Thats what I used last, I wish I had some more


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## KataMaStEr (Dec 30, 2003)

If I stock up they???ll probably expire before I even open the bottle.


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## RCfootball87 (Dec 30, 2003)

So they say ephedra products have been "linked" to 100 deaths.  They let's do the math.  Say those deaths happened over a five year period, and their are 15 million people using ephedra per year.  that's 20 deaths a year, divided by 15 million users, and you have a 1 in 750,000chance of dying from using ephedra. Assuming yu use it right, the odds are even greater.  Honestly, coconuts falling out of trees kill more people each year.


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## Mudge (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by KataMaStEr *_
> If I stock up they???ll probably expire before I even open the bottle.



When a product expires according to the FDA it has lost 10% of its potency, not a big dealie. We can hope/assume these people follow the same guidelines.


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## Monolith (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> http://www.sann.net/ephedrine25.html
> 
> Thats what I used last, I wish I had some more



Yeah... thats the stuff Mike used to carry.  Apparently he had to stop because of insurance reasons, though.

You can buy it through that site though (even if it is pretty expensive).


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## Var (Dec 30, 2003)

Anyone know a good source for it now?  Looks like everyone's dropped it already.


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## Monolith (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Leslie *_
> $19.95
> 
> Mike has bottles of 60 for only $7 at www.1fast400.com



Yeah, i saw that.  It's Ephedrine HCL, though... i believe the sann stuff is sulfate.

I've got nothing to back up my opinion, but ive been under the impression that the HCL serves as more of a "time release" version of ephedrine.  Its effects take longer to kick in - up to an hour - but last much longer, making it great if youre using it as a fat burner.  The ephedrine sulfate, on the other hand, kicks in within 20-30 mins, but doesnt last as long - making it great for a pre-w/o energy boost.

Regardless, i figured i'd stick with what i know was effective for me in the past.  Don't hestitate to call me stupid and tell me why none of the above is true, though.


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## PreMier (Dec 30, 2003)

This is BS!  I dont use ephedra, but thats not the point.  The point is like someone else stated earlier, the govt is taking away OUR rights 1 by 1...  Think of all the things that will eb illegal in 20 years


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## MarcusMaximus (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> It's also banned in canada.


the dosage and stated purpose is limited and redefined respectively.  the cap on the dosage or ephedrine is 8mg per tab/capsule or caplet.  it was supposed to be 10mg but something else came down the line.  also, to comply with health canada, all epedrine products must have a Drug Identification Number ( DIN).  so these things are sold as OTC decongestants.   so any athlete caught using banned stimulants always resort to the old tiresome line " i had a cold so i took pseudafed"

Ephedrine is perfectly legal in canada.  lower dosage and you can't sell it as a fat burner.  many supp companies have gotten around that by putting something called synephrine or some propriety ( their own chemical derivate ) stimulant in the tabs that do the same thing ( they say (


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by RCfootball87 *_
> So they say ephedra products have been "linked" to 100 deaths.  They let's do the math.  Say those deaths happened over a five year period, and their are 15 million people using ephedra per year.  that's 20 deaths a year, divided by 15 million users, and you have a 1 in 750,000chance of dying from using ephedra. Assuming yu use it right, the odds are even greater.  Honestly, coconuts falling out of trees kill more people each year.




Exactly, if you want to look at over the counter products that have killed more people, try plain old tylenol or asprin.  However, in all fairness, I will also present some numbers that the proponents of banning ephedra are using:


The American Association of Poison Control Centers reported 1178 ephedrarelated adverse reactions in 2001, accounting for 64% of all adverse reactions secondary to commonly used herbs in the United States.  However, ephedra products represented only 0.82% of the herbal products for sale in the United States. Indeed, the relative risk for adverse reactions among ephedra users are 10- to 40-fold higher than the risk among those who use other herbal products.  It is for this reason, these anti ephedra people are chanting their mantra.

Adverse effects meaning heart attacks, strokes, palpitatins, chest pain, anxiety attacks etc. and not necessarily deaths.


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## Mudge (Dec 30, 2003)

Why aspirin, drug interaction?


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## Mudge (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Monolith *_
> Yeah... thats the stuff Mike used to carry.  Apparently he had to stop because of insurance reasons, though.



Yes, I bought from Mike then it just vanished


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## 1Fast400 (Dec 30, 2003)

SAN has no insurance on the product, so almost every distributor stopped selling it.


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## Mudge (Dec 30, 2003)

Ouch, bummer for them (and us consumers).


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## Monolith (Dec 31, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by 1Fast400 *_
> SAN has no insurance on the product, so almost every distributor stopped selling it.



Hey... does that mean i could sue them and force them into a quick settlement?


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 31, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Why aspirin, drug interaction?




Deaths due to internal bleeding, especially ulcers.
Until recently, rye's syndrome when kids were given apsrin. also, kids getting into bottles.  In fact, NSAIDs as a whole kills way more people:



> (1996): "]b]Each year,[/b] use of NSAIDs (Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs) accounts for an estimated *7,600 deaths;* and *76,000 hospitalizations* in the United States." (NSAIDs include aspirin, ibuprofen, naproxen, diclofenac, ketoprofen, and tiaprofenic acid.)
> 
> Source: Robyn Tamblyn, PhD; Laeora Berkson, MD, MHPE, FRCPC; W. Dale Jauphinee, MD, FRCPC; David Gayton, MD, PhD, FRCPC; Roland Grad, MD, MSc; Allen Huang, MD, FRCPC; Lisa Isaac, PhD; Peter McLeod, MD, FRCPC; and Linda Snell, MD, MHPE, FRCPC, "Unnecessary Prescribing of NSAIDs and the Management of NSAID-Related Gastropathy in Medical Practice," Annals of Internal Medicine (Washington, DC: American College of Physicians, 1997), September 15, 1997, 127:429-438, from the web at http://www.acponline.org/journals/annals/15sep97/nsaid.htm, last accessed Feb. 14, 2001, citing Fries, JF, "Assessing and understanding patient risk," Scandinavian Journal of Rheumatology Supplement, 1992;92:21-4.




really puts things in perspective


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## SJ69 (Dec 31, 2003)

This is a bullshit.  Since when is it the gov'ts job to decide what supplements you can and can't take.  Like I need these idiots to watch out for me, GTFOOH.  If we continue to grant the gov more and more power, pretty soon we will have no freedoms.
There is only 3 supplements that I ever bought that work, they are - ephedra - m-1-t - protein powder.  Now they want to get rid of 66% of the effective supplements?  So what they will only be able to sell inefective supplements?


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## jaydawg73 (Dec 31, 2003)

I agree fully with everyones comment about the govt's hand in something that should be handled by FDA. And the cases that they used to make fact were real loose. A unhealthy lineman tryin hard to drop wieght so he can make his millions and a pitcher with heart problems that he already knew about.. all they needed to do is regulate it alittle better. Not ban it to make the govt look better... I got lucky just got mine in yesterday . was kinda ironic.


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## hardasnails1973 (Dec 31, 2003)

Just bought 3 bottles 1,000 pills for 100 bucks so i am good for a while !! Gov't may there point so hopefully they should back down from banning other supplements. What other supplements caused death (well if you are a stupid fat fuck and then slam 12 hydroxycuts and go out and run in florida heat with little water then you deserve have problems) always takes one asshole to ruin it for others !!


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## gopro (Dec 31, 2003)

Laughing evily, I slowly crept down into the lower levels of the VPX offices to find boxes upon boxes of Liquid and encapsulated Clenbutrx sitting innocently on the shelves. As my mouth began to water and a drop of sweat fell from my brow I realized I have seen the "motherload!" Yes, I have reached the promised land and knew I was wittnessing a site that few could ever wish to see...1000s upon 1000s of mg of ephedra staring at me. After a moment I began hearing a voice, but from where? Slowly I crept up to one of the boxes and realized that it was the Clen talking to me....but what was it saying? As I put my ear to the box I could hear it..."Eric, Eric...please, save us...please, save us..." I knew what I HAD to do! I grabbed that box and went running as fast as I could toward the door screaming, "I'll save you! I will give you LIFE!" I didn't stop for anyone or anything. I knew that if I hesitated for even a second I might turn back! Within seconds I got to my car, opened the trunk, and gently laid that poor, suffering box filled with "Liquid Gold" onto an awaiting blanket. As I drove away I felt like everyone knew what I had in my possession, but I pressed on. Once I got home I thought I was safe...or was I? Will I ever be? Trust no one! I am alone in this world...but its ok, as long as I have my ephedra.

Screw you FDA!


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## hardasnails1973 (Dec 31, 2003)

BRo 
Why did they change the old formula of clenbutrx ?  That new stuck SUCKS !!  The old stuff I got wicked results and wacked out of my mind with energy !!


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## gopro (Dec 31, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by hardasnails1973 *_
> BRo
> Why did they change the old formula of clenbutrx ?  That new stuck SUCKS !!  The old stuff I got wicked results and wacked out of my mind with energy !!



Nobody has complained about the new stuff. Still selling like hot cakes


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## hardasnails1973 (Dec 31, 2003)

not talking about the Redline.. the clenbuterx.  I had to add ALA and Green tea with 1,000 mgs of ALC to even come close to the old version.  The old version had so much stuff in it that made it so much effective.. 

Good old EC, green tea, alc,  still rocks.  Untill i try redline when it come to the 4 weeks cutter and then I know my mind will be changed.  I'm training a guy that is getting ready to hit cosmo magazine and he loves it.  I have turned him on to sans v-12 , loaded, and redline, bcaa, glutemien and is loving life plus made some few nutritional modifications and in 4 weeks transformed him big time !!


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 31, 2003)

what is alc?


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## hardasnails1973 (Dec 31, 2003)

acetly - l carnitnine


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## ZECH (Dec 31, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Laughing evily, I slowly crept down into the lower levels of the VPX offices to find boxes upon boxes of Liquid and encapsulated Clenbutrx sitting innocently on the shelves. As my mouth began to water and a drop of sweat fell from my brow I realized I have seen the "motherload!" Yes, I have reached the promised land and knew I was wittnessing a site that few could ever wish to see...1000s upon 1000s of mg of ephedra staring at me. After a moment I began hearing a voice, but from where? Slowly I crept up to one of the boxes and realized that it was the Clen talking to me....but what was it saying? As I put my ear to the box I could hear it..."Eric, Eric...please, save us...please, save us..." I knew what I HAD to do! I grabbed that box and went running as fast as I could toward the door screaming, "I'll save you! I will give you LIFE!" I didn't stop for anyone or anything. I knew that if I hesitated for even a second I might turn back! Within seconds I got to my car, opened the trunk, and gently laid that poor, suffering box filled with "Liquid Gold" onto an awaiting blanket. As I drove away I felt like everyone knew what I had in my possession, but I pressed on. Once I got home I thought I was safe...or was I? Will I ever be? Trust no one! I am alone in this world...but its ok, as long as I have my ephedra.
> 
> Screw you FDA!


One of the funniest post I have read in a while!


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## Power Rabbit (Dec 31, 2003)

Ya im about to buy 10 bottles of vaspro ...and 4 bottles of clen....god there goes my xmas $$ :-(


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## gopro (Dec 31, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> One of the funniest post I have read in a while!



THANK YOU!!! 

I was waiting for SOMEONE with a sense of humor to comment!


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## Twin Peak (Dec 31, 2003)

I was going to comment, but I don't have a sense of humor.


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## plouffe (Dec 31, 2003)

What about Asthma relief pills you can buy at a drug store? I've found pure 10mg pills of ephedrine at Walgreens.. I doubt that would be banned?


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## Twin Peak (Dec 31, 2003)

They should be saved.


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## Marble (Dec 31, 2003)

Even though alcohol is fun, ephedra can be just as fun.....


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## maniclion (Dec 31, 2003)

I think the main issue was that "ice" is made with ephedrine and ephedra associated with ephedrine.  Problem in Hawaii is that we have a lot of Korean convience store owners that have pure ephedrine shipped from Korea, along with mini torches and glass pipes.  I think that it should be regulated, but not banned.  I used to use it on a regular basis in the Navy during my late night watches when I had a tendency to fall asleep even after drinking coffee.


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## plouffe (Dec 31, 2003)

yeah the minithins.. they use those.. but what about the sudafeds? It's all bullshit.


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## gopro (Dec 31, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Laughing evily, I slowly crept down into the lower levels of the VPX offices to find boxes upon boxes of Liquid and encapsulated Clenbutrx sitting innocently on the shelves. As my mouth began to water and a drop of sweat fell from my brow I realized I have seen the "motherload!" Yes, I have reached the promised land and knew I was wittnessing a site that few could ever wish to see...1000s upon 1000s of mg of ephedra staring at me. After a moment I began hearing a voice, but from where? Slowly I crept up to one of the boxes and realized that it was the Clen talking to me....but what was it saying? As I put my ear to the box I could hear it..."Eric, Eric...please, save us...please, save us..." I knew what I HAD to do! I grabbed that box and went running as fast as I could toward the door screaming, "I'll save you! I will give you LIFE!" I didn't stop for anyone or anything. I knew that if I hesitated for even a second I might turn back! Within seconds I got to my car, opened the trunk, and gently laid that poor, suffering box filled with "Liquid Gold" onto an awaiting blanket. As I drove away I felt like everyone knew what I had in my possession, but I pressed on. Once I got home I thought I was safe...or was I? Will I ever be? Trust no one! I am alone in this world...but its ok, as long as I have my ephedra.
> 
> Screw you FDA!



I'm laughing at myself...I'm a funny guy!


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## mrguy (Jan 1, 2004)

OK Gopro,

I'll give you your dues on that being funny!

I read it and about spit my sugar free Red Bull on my computer screen I laughed so hard 

Then, I liberated a few bottles of the SAN Ephedrine 25 from an online site. Those babies don't have to worry now that they will be in my warm snug hands to keep them safe from the big bad FDA!!


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## gopro (Jan 2, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by mrguy *_
> OK Gopro,
> 
> I'll give you your dues on that being funny!
> ...



Wooooooooooohoooooooooo...love when people spit what they are drinking. Almost as good as it coming out the nose!


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## Replicator 3.0 (Jan 2, 2004)

http://www.thedailyreview.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10741454&BRD=2276&PAG=461&dept_id=465049&rfi=6

Sounds like a suicide to me. But of course the herb will get blamed.


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