# How much meat are you eating a day?



## Mr Persistent (Aug 31, 2013)

What's good guys?

were all here well atleast a good percentage of us are here to pack on as much muscle as possible and get into the best shapes if our life's!


I'm just curious as to how much meat a day you guys are consuming when bulking? Also ur height and weight andbyears lifting would be nice to know aswell.


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## Iz_vivit (Aug 31, 2013)

Height: 5'7"
Weight: 208
Exp: 5yrs
Consumption: 1lb chicken, 7oz tuna, and 6 eggs


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## OfficerFarva (Aug 31, 2013)

I don't eat it; I hear it'll make you big and muscly looking


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## Dr.G (Aug 31, 2013)

5'5, 78 kg  , 37 years of lifting, don't eat meat everyday i eat about 50 to 100g of protein a day (i don't calculate) mainly from egg white, fish, beans, lentils, peas, vegetables, turkey breast, chicken breast and beef maybe twice or 3 times a week, canned tuna once a month if i have nothing else available.


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## Christsean (Aug 31, 2013)

I eat 1.2 to 1.5 grams of protein power lb of bodyweight. I try to eat as much of that in some form of lean meat. 

I use a protein powder once a day unless I need an extra due to not having access to whole food for an extended period of time. I like cottage cheese at night.


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## Mr Persistent (Sep 1, 2013)

OfficerFarva said:


> I don't eat it; I hear it'll make you big and muscly looking



I heard that too it made me contemplate going veggie


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## Mr Persistent (Sep 1, 2013)

Iv eaten 52 oz of meat past few days today in gonna eat the same or similar about in chicken breast I'm only around 180lb at 5'8 I fluctuate up, but my diet past month was horrendous just pure junk food every day slacked from the gym started to feel like dog shit combine that Witt my high estro ( different story) and it all makes sense lol but yeah now I'm eating so good, I'm on it I'm not Gonna miss meals I will get fucking huge! It's crazy I got 270g of protein through the meat I was eating yesterday and I have the chicken cooking now and there's actually 380g of chicken purely through meat! Crazy wont even need protein powder at this rate!


The best thing is its not even filling me up I still slam cottage cheese before bed I'm thinking of setting my alarm for 3am and eating something light like tuna!

i train religiously I love it but my diet is poor, now I'm eating like this I have no intension to stop! Lets see what consistent good healthy big eating can do!


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## theCaptn' (Sep 1, 2013)

600g of fish-chicken-steak

Plus egg whites and a little whey


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## SFW (Sep 1, 2013)

Bulking? A lot. Upwards of 3-5 lbs a day. Mostly 80/20 beef, ground turkey or chicken breasts. During a cut? Mostly tofu, soy milk and boxed juices with High amounts of bisphenol in it.


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## Mr Persistent (Sep 1, 2013)

SFW said:


> Bulking? A lot. Upwards of 3-5 lbs a day. Mostly 80/20 beef, ground turkey or chicken breasts. During a cut? Mostly tofu, soy milk and boxed juices with High amounts of bisphenol in it.



Yeah I'm on a bulking mission at 5'8 180ish Iv eaten 3lbs of beef last 2 days and same weight in chicken today I hope if I eat like this consistently il put the weight and muscle on! It was surprisingly easy to put away 3lb of beef both days could easily eat more iv just got to go make sure I get the leanest cuts I can get from the butchers... As far as chicken it's boring but has to be done. Just about to cook me up 3lb+ now for tomoro I'm getting my vegetables in with every meal aswell and drinking bcaa shakes throughout the day. 3-5lb seems like what a bodybuilder should be eating every day what's your state mate if u don't mind me asking?


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## Mr Persistent (Sep 1, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> 600g of fish-chicken-steak
> 
> Plus egg whites and a little whey



cutting or maintenance? Because iv subbed to your insulin thread and ur quite a big dude and 600g isn't alot


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## Mr Persistent (Sep 2, 2013)

IM Not interested in how many grams if protein per pound of bodyweight guys just want to know plain and simple how many pound/kg/oz of meat a day your eating and what's your height and body weight!!


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## theCaptn' (Sep 2, 2013)

Mr Persistent said:


> cutting or maintenance? Because iv subbed to your insulin thread and ur quite a big dude and 600g isn't alot



Sorry bro - cutting, currently 220lb 6'2"

Say hi to your polish GF from me


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## Swfl (Sep 2, 2013)

2-3 lbs chicken per day everyday 3-4 chicken breasts at about 8oz each after cooking
6'0 175-180lbs


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## Christsean (Sep 2, 2013)

SFW said:


> Bulking? A lot. Upwards of 3-5 lbs a day. Mostly 80/20 beef, ground turkey or chicken breasts. During a cut? Mostly tofu, soy milk and boxed juices with High amounts of bisphenol in it.



Bisphenol?? Nice.

I personally enjoy eating copious amounts of canned tuna laced with methylmercury.


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## Christsean (Sep 2, 2013)

Christsean said:


> I eat 1.2 to 1.5 grams of protein power lb of bodyweight. I try to eat as much of that in some form of lean meat.
> 
> I use a protein powder once a day unless I need an extra due to not having access to whole food for an extended period of time. I like cottage cheese at night.



I am 6'0" 208lbs this am. To be honest with you, I've been eating two 1 1/2 filets the last couple of days. Total 1.2 pounds. No sides. Got a great deal on the whole filet.


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## Christsean (Sep 2, 2013)

In about to grill .75 lbs of filet as we speak.


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## Mr Persistent (Sep 3, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> Sorry bro - cutting, currently 220lb 6'2"
> 
> Say hi to your polish GF from me



Thought that wasn't enough good for a big guy but if it cutting it makes sense! And she said hello lol time for me to nail my diet on the bulk good I think a good 3lb a day of meat and veggies and potatoes plus going on cycle test and deca (maybe slin) I should grow from my bodyweight of 180ish if I'm consistent with the diet sound good to you bro?


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## Mr Persistent (Sep 3, 2013)

Il be switching between chicken and beef and some
chicken its just going to kill my wallet lol


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## Mr Persistent (Sep 3, 2013)

Swfl said:


> 2-3 lbs chicken per day everyday 3-4 chicken breasts at about 8oz each after cooking
> 6'0 175-180lbs



Chicken gets so boring tho lol gotta switch it up although red meat everyday can't be good for you and it will hurt ur wallet aswell so it's tryna find a Balance is be arite if I was single lol


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## Mr Persistent (Sep 3, 2013)

SFW said:


> Bulking? A lot. Upwards of 3-5 lbs a day. Mostly 80/20 beef, ground turkey or chicken breasts. During a cut? Mostly tofu, soy milk and boxed juices with High amounts of bisphenol in it.




WhTs bisphenol?


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## zthrill (Sep 12, 2013)

I eat mostly chicken, but I usually try out different spices or cooking styles so it doesn't always taste the same. I eat about 2 chicken breasts a day for lunch and dinner. Ill throw steak in when I feel like it.


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## LAM (Sep 16, 2013)

I consume a different protein source with each meal, right now I only eat beef when we go out because I haven't bought a new grill yet and cooking steaks in a oven is just wrong unless you have a proper broiler.


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## theCaptn' (Sep 16, 2013)

..


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## dave 236 (Sep 17, 2013)

Mr Persistent said:


> WhTs bisphenol?



A nasty little chemical that is used in the manufacturing of plastic containers. It mimics certain hormones and is considered something you're better off avoiding. Just do a google search. Lots of info.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2


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## LAM (Sep 17, 2013)

dave 236 said:


> A nasty little chemical that is used in the manufacturing of plastic containers. It mimics certain hormones and is considered something you're better off avoiding. Just do a google search. Lots of info.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2



that's why I only store foods that are going to be re-heated in glass or take them out of the plastic.  one of my buddy's is a researcher and litigates for cancer related diseases, etc. he fill me in on all this stuff.


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## theCaptn' (Sep 17, 2013)

I'm getting by on 210g of protein a day - mostly grass fed beef and wild fish. Whey consumption is down to 30g a day if training. Holding weight just fine.


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## OTG85 (Sep 17, 2013)

With every meal.I been eating a lot steak and ground chuck latley.Idk what will kill me first gear or red meat.


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## JoshM (Sep 18, 2013)

eggs for breakfast with a banana shake
500g chicken and with rice and salad
also a lot of beans
whey protein


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## theCaptn' (Sep 18, 2013)

Legumes will keep you small


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## Swfl (Sep 18, 2013)

OTG85 said:


> With every meal.I been eating a lot steak and ground chuck latley.Idk what will kill me first gear or red meat.



^^^^This is the combo for eternal life.  The rest just dont want anyone living longer than them. So they talk shit... I'll be 193 this month. Red meat and gears all day!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 4


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## AnabolicAmerica (Sep 18, 2013)

Mr Persistent said:


> I heard that too it made me contemplate going veggie


You know your eating too much meat when you can no longer reach back to wipe your arse. lol


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## Dr.G (Sep 18, 2013)

i hate to interrupt guys but all u need is 0.5-1.5g  of protein per lb eating more will not help it will just make your kidneys work harder and u may regret it 20 years from now. don't expect immediate side effects if you eat lots of protein because the effects will come in years slowly but surely.


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## theCaptn' (Sep 18, 2013)

That's still a wide range. I'm finding 1g/lb is covering bases.


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## LAM (Sep 18, 2013)

Dr.G said:


> i hate to interrupt guys but all u need is 0.5-1.5g  of protein per lb eating more will not help it will just make your kidneys work harder and u may regret it 20 years from now. don't expect immediate side effects if you eat lots of protein because the effects will come in years slowly but surely.



is that why none of the old school bodybuilders from the 50's are showing kidney problems?

you do realize that making up facts doesn't actually mean they are such in reality.  the bodies of athletes need and can utilize more nutrients than that of the sedentary individual and especially those that carry much higher levels of fat free mass.


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## blergs. (Sep 19, 2013)

Mr Persistent said:


> What's good guys?
> 
> were all here well atleast a good percentage of us are here to pack on as much muscle as possible and get into the best shapes if our life's!
> 
> ...



0% the last 8 or so year.

it IS possible to be into bbing and not eat meat, bout you NEED to eat RIGHT!
I am not your avrg bber though. im sure 99% of the people here do eat meat...

please dont ask me where I get my protein from , i get sick of that Q. there is lots of protein in many plants and nuts. simple diet/food knowledge would show you that. most dont look for it though. they think protein = meat.


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## blergs. (Sep 19, 2013)

LAM said:


> is that why none of the old school bodybuilders from the 50's are showing kidney problems?
> 
> you do realize that making up facts doesn't actually mean they are such in reality.  the bodies of athletes need and can utilize more nutrients than that of the sedentary individual and especially those that carry much higher levels of fat free mass.



agreed!

i personally aim for 250-300g ed . i dont think people really need more then 1.5g/lb but not everyone reacts the same. 2g might do better for some, maybe more.  but drinking alot of water is more important if your are worried of kidney healthy...


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## blergs. (Sep 19, 2013)

Christsean said:


> I eat 1.2 to 1.5 grams of protein power lb of bodyweight. I try to eat as much of that in some form of lean meat.
> 
> I use a protein powder once a day unless I need an extra due to not having access to whole food for an extended period of time. I like cottage cheese at night.



nothing wrong with protein drinks man.  people like to act on the forum liek tis fake or not food. it IS food! it is food that is powdered , but it is food!  I have 3-4 protein drinks a day with my 3-4 meals a day ( sometimes as a snack if im busy, but usually around eating some sort of food .

it works well.   you can get 99% of your protein from shakes and grow well IF the rest of your macros/food is being eatin. protein is only ONE important factor in diet. for mass and health.  

of course people who drink  4+ shakes a day tend to have a bad diet that they are trying to make up for and make protein powder users look bad. ... but that is due to the persons overall diet, not the fact of using protein powder for the protein intake...


my avy is meat free, i got alot of work to do, but my point is i knwo alot of meat eaters that are all ( whole foods, screw powders) and look like crap... it can go both ways...


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## Dr.G (Sep 19, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> That's still a wide range. I'm finding 1g/lb is covering bases.


 it is a wide range , i was referring to all people bb ers and non bbers.... yes 1g/lb is usually more than enough for a bodybuilder

LAM: old school bodybuilders don't show kidney, liver  or heart problems simply because they just don t go on posting on the net about their health issues !
and usually kidney disease is a progressive disease  not a sudden killer  like the heart ...and let me tell you that the percentage of bodybuilders with heart problems or who died from a heart related problem is pretty high... .... 

protein shakes also are not that good for kidneys in the long run, simply because protein coming from shakes are absorbed much faster than natural food protein.

i personally think that any supplement should be taken in cycles, with off periods, to give your body and organs a break from any harmful effect.


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## theCaptn' (Sep 19, 2013)

Shakes are over-rated.... but far cheaper than whole foods unfortunately.


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## Dr.G (Sep 19, 2013)

^^ they are also more convenient and faster to prepare..


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## LAM (Sep 20, 2013)

Dr.G said:


> it is a wide range , i was referring to all people bb ers and non bbers.... yes 1g/lb is usually more than enough for a bodybuilder
> 
> LAM: old school bodybuilders don't show kidney, liver  or heart problems simply because they just don t go on posting on the net about their health issues !



that's funny because I trained with Albert Beckles in Vegas and worked out at the same Gold's as him for a decade and i'm pretty sure we covered this topic.  and accord to him zero have died from any such effects.  

you have no idea who I know, don't know or have talked too.


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## theCaptn' (Sep 20, 2013)

...


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## Kenny Croxdale (Sep 20, 2013)

Dr.G said:


> it is a wide range , i was referring to all people bb ers and non bbers.... yes 1g/lb is usually more than enough for a bodybuilder
> 
> LAM: old school bodybuilders don't show kidney, liver  or heart problems simply because they just don t go on posting on the net about their health issues !
> and usually kidney disease is a progressive disease  not a sudden killer  like the heart ...and let me tell you that the percentage of bodybuilders with heart problems or who died from a heart related problem is pretty high... ....
> ...



*Name Them*

Since there are so many bodybuilders who have health conditions from consuming high a high protein diet...you can easily name them and provide conclusive research data that states their condition the direct cause.  

You have an affinity for spewing out misinformation and providing vague statements with no references.  

*Omniscience*

You are a self proclaimed god (not the God but a god) of everything.  

*Meglomaniac*

You area medical doctor, nutritionist, exercise physiologist, physical therapist, mechanical engineer and car mechanic...at least from you perspective.

Car doctor mechanic...I do need some counseling on a dripping oil leak that my car has.  It's a slight drip that I cannot locate.  Any ideas?

*High Protein Intake*

There are countless studies by real nutritionist that emphatically state that NO healthy individual will have problems with a high protein intake. 

The data shows the "sick" people with kidney problems do have problems. 

You might want to google "sick" and "healthy" to understand the meaning of those two technical words. 

*Sewer Hose*

Like a sewer hose, you spew out a lot of crap.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## Dr.G (Sep 20, 2013)

LAM said:


> that's funny because I trained with Albert Beckles in Vegas and worked out at the same Gold's as him for a decade and i'm pretty sure we covered this topic.  and accord to him zero have died from any such effects.
> 
> you have no idea who I know, don't know or have talked too.


just go on looking for bodybuilders who died from heart related problems, you will be surprised... lately big nasser el sombaty ......as for kidneys you don't die from kidney disease you just live with it it takes a long time to die from kidney disease


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## Dr.G (Sep 20, 2013)

kenny: this is my view , i never claimed that i was god, you did.
 i have my view , you have yours..i have no problem with that, so grow up and refrain from insulting people because it is childish and useless.


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## 1HungLo (Sep 26, 2013)

5'9"
193#
daily: 20 egg whites, 1# fish, 1# lean beef


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## Kenny Croxdale (Sep 27, 2013)

Dr.G said:


> kenny: this is my view , i never claimed that i was god, you did.



*Dr. God*

You have defined yourself as a god, not the God, but the god of medicine, nutrition, training, etc 



Dr.G said:


> i have my view , you have yours..i have no problem with that, so grow up and refrain from insulting people because it is childish and useless.



*Prejudice*

I have a definite prejudice.  I don't like idiots.  

Your post contain some good information and idiotic statements.  

As someone who should know, you often don't.  You spew out information that you cannot support. 

You substantiate you claim with, "Because I said so."  That bring us back to your "Nazareth Syndrome".

*Useless*

Your are right, you are a megalomaniac.  Delusional with power and omnipotence.

So, there is no reasoning with you.  In your eyes you area the god of all things.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## Dr.G (Sep 27, 2013)

^^whatever suits you


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## Fishman44 (Oct 1, 2013)

On a high protein day 100g from shakes, 25oz chicken and 4-5 whole eggs


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## Powerlifter94 (Nov 15, 2013)

6oz 4 times a day


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## ElitePeptides (Nov 15, 2013)

Around 32oz give or take


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## dave 236 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dr.G said:


> just go on looking for bodybuilders who died from heart related problems, you will be surprised... lately big nasser el sombaty ......as for kidneys you don't die from kidney disease you just live with it it takes a long time to die from kidney disease



You've been pushing this same b.s since joining this board. As LAM said making up facts to suit your ideas of whats right with absolutely no proof or evidence other than the same ole " i know someone blah blah happened to" is at best a waste of your time but since im still waiting on the pm you were going to provide on your so called Dr credentials months ago i doubt you will stop but just know that what you're doing is not just an annoyance but fraudulent to those who have actually earned a doctorial of some sort. Now for the last time prove what you've said about dietary protein in an otherwise healthy individual causing nephrotic syndrome or any other kidney issue  or go back to surfing natural news sites in your basement man cave and let the grow ups talk. And if you dont die from kidney disease then explain end stage renal failure? You are either the biggest liar I've ever encountered or just completely delusional. And yeah i know this is an old thread but i just cant resist getting you going again on all your pseudo medical advice. Mr im not a doctor but its in my screen name. Wtf ever...

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk


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## MJR Research (Nov 22, 2013)

I get in about 130g of protein from meet and the rest from powder


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## theCaptn' (Nov 22, 2013)

MJR Research Rep said:


> I get in about 130g of protein from meet and the rest from powder



So you're pretty small then?


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## TVL (Nov 23, 2013)

Hi all, new here, from the UK. Currently eating 750g turkey/day. Along with approx. 10 egg whites. Then whey/casein etc. I am 6"2 and weight atm 106kg which is about 230lb I think.


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## flood (Nov 23, 2013)

I vary it. 
I eat beef 4x/wk. Chicken, turkey, wild salmon other days.

As long as I hit my protein macro of 1-1.2g/lb I'm happy.
When I don't eat beef for 2+ days  I sometimes take L-carnetine supp.

My endo said any T boost from beef just aromatizes. Anyone have info on that?


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## blergs. (Nov 25, 2013)

TVL said:


> Hi all, new here, from the UK. Currently eating 750g turkey/day. Along with approx. 10 egg whites. Then whey/casein etc. I am 6"2 and weight atm 106kg which is about 230lb I think.



eat the whole egg man...


Welcome to forum though!


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## Anthony Tate (Dec 8, 2013)

Yesterday's meat was:-


Lunch 160g Chicken (1 breast)
Dinner 250-300g Lamb(4 cutlets) I didn't weigh the bones so don't know exactly  


That's pretty typical for me and I worry if I'm eating too much red meat


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## vassille (Jan 19, 2014)

interesting thread
6ft 250lbs right now im recomping a this weight. Im pretty lean 34inch waist pants not sure about body fat...
I cut back on my protein intake, after many years of 300g of protein a day I felt about 200g of protein was doing the same. 
So, as far as breakdown goes,
4-6oz chicken
4-6oz beef
2 whole eggs 4 egg whites
nuts, seeds 
1 serving yogurt, 
1 scoop protein
nutritional bars
2 servings cottage chesse
all and all about 200g of protein a day.

The biggest differece I see with lower protien is my digestive system is a lot faster. I actually eat 8-9 small meals a day now compared to 5 bigger meals before and im actually hungry when the 2 hours between meals is up.


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## malfeasance (Jan 22, 2014)

Dr.G said:


> it is a wide range , i was referring to all people bb ers and non bbers.... yes 1g/lb is usually more than enough for a bodybuilder
> 
> LAM: old school bodybuilders don't show kidney, liver  or heart problems simply because they just don t go on posting on the net about their health issues !
> and usually kidney disease is a progressive disease  not a sudden killer  like the heart ...and let me tell you that the percentage of bodybuilders with heart problems or who died from a heart related problem is pretty high... ....
> ...


Flex Wheeler had a kidney transplant http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/anabolic-zone/25082-flex-wheeler-speaks-out.html

Luke Wood died after a kidney transplant Error Page

Tom Prince competing with kidney issues MARIO STRONG'S NATURAL MUSCLE NEWS: When the posing stops: Tom Prince's kidneys failed him—his heart didn't  Interesting is the note at the end of that long article: "Of the top five heavyweights in the 1995 NPC Nationals, only Toney Freeman has not suffered a critical illness. Severely dehydrated, Edgar Fletcher had been rushed unconscious to a hospital during the 1993 USA Championships. Don Long had a kidney transplant in 2002. Curtis Leffler died of a heart attack in 1998; he was 36."

I suspect it is not the protein intake, but maybe the orals?


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## malfeasance (Jan 22, 2014)

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/10/sports/10steroids.html?_r=0

In that mass of muscle, kidney may be the weak link for bodybuilders.

That is why a case study published last month by a top kidney journal is generating interest in the nephrology and bodybuilding communities. It is among the first to assert a direct link between long-term steroid use and kidney disease.

The study began 10 years ago when a kidney pathologist at Columbia University Medical Center in New York noticed that a bodybuilder had an advanced form of kidney disease. Curious, she started looking for similar cases and eventually studied 10 men with serious kidney damage who acknowledged using steroids. Nine were bodybuilders and one was a competitive powerlifter with a similar training routine. 

All 10 men in the case series, published in November by the Journal of the American Society of Nephrology, showed damage to the filters of the kidney. Nine had an irreversible disease known as . . .


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## Garnet Donald (Feb 5, 2014)

whatever kind of meat for dinner nearly i have everyday


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## flex10 (Feb 12, 2014)

9 oz of 80-20 or 90-10 ground meat, 12 oz of chicken, can of tuna (don't know how many oz in this but you get the idea).........of course I do get protein from many other sources throughout the day such as cottage cheese, greek yogurt, beans, eggs, milk, whey etc. I'm 6'2 ~225 and fairly lean. Anywhere from 300-350g protein daily. Looking forward to upcoming bulk with some OP test e baby!


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## flood (Feb 12, 2014)

1.1g of protein per pound of bodyweight for me. Beef makes hitting my macros so much easier. Skinless chicken thighs help me get enough fat on no beef days.


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## theCaptn' (Feb 12, 2014)

150-200g P from red meat!


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## Uplifted (Feb 12, 2014)

2-3 lbs a day, sometimes that at one sitting at the brazilian steakhouse.

6'2
250


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## blergs. (Feb 20, 2014)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> *Name Them*
> 
> Since there are so many bodybuilders who have health conditions from consuming high a high protein diet...you can easily name them and provide conclusive research data that states their condition the direct cause.
> 
> ...



Dont bother Dr/G actually thinks he knows about all this... I have seen many posts and know he MIGHT know about half of what he is talking about.. no offense, just how I also feel..


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## malfeasance (Feb 27, 2014)

Guys, there are all KINDS of kidney problems in bodybuilders.  I gave examples above.

This is not because of eating meat, however.

It is because of steroids.

Cut and paste follows:


Using Anabolic Steroids: New Study Says Watch for Kidney Damage 


By Dan Gwartney, M.D.

Using Anabolic Steroids: New Study Says Watch for Kidney Damage

The physiology of man evolved such that he maintains optimum health and performance in conditions that are commonly encountered. Over time, man deviated from nature as he established the ability to create shelter against the changing climate; developed trans-geographic commerce to provide a more diverse and stable food supply; and discovered substances that affect the mind and body, such as alcohol and opium.

People in developed countries who enjoy the luxuries of personal vehicles, labor-saving devices, and calorie-laden diets suffer from an epidemic of chronic diseases. Ironically, societies that have achieved the pinnacle of progress through financial and political stability, in addition to scientific advances, appear to erode the physical health of citizens through the promotion of gluttony. Truly, it appears that moderation is the best policy.

Bodybuilders, athletes and fitness extremists pursue not just health, but maximal performance. These individuals are often viewed as the healthiest by the [superficial] general public, but they also experience chronic injury if their training, diet or drug use becomes extreme? tendonitis is a daily experience for many; eating disorders develop; and adverse effects from performance-enhancing drug use/abuse or weight-loss products are unfortunately common.

The most commonly-used class of drugs for sports and physique enhancement is anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS). From junior high school on, most boys and men become familiar with the multicolor diagram showing a variety of side effects that are implied to be inevitable consequences of AAS use. Of the many organs and systems harmed or damaged by AAS, one paired set of vital organs is easily overlooked? the kidneys.

In the poster "The Harmful Effects of Steroids," a muscular figure is shown hitting a front double biceps pose, while his multicolored innards are penetrated by lines connecting them to a litany of harm caused by AAS. The kidneys are listed with the vague comments of "kidney disease" and "kidney stones," but as they are not visible when the body is viewed from the front, there are no DayGlo-colored organs to go with the statement, not even a connecting line.

Kidney disease and kidney stones are serious matters. The kidneys are vital organs that are taken for granted because most people do not consider their kidneys as long as they are able to urinate? able to pee, worry-free. Yet, when the kidneys begin to fail, serious consequences follow. If the kidneys fail completely, a person will die in days unless he is placed on dialysis.1 Tumors of the kidneys occur, although there is no reported increased risk of cancer in the kidneys in recreational AAS users. One rare cancer of the kidney (Wilms' tumor) has been reported in an AAS user.2

Kidney stones arise in the tiny filtering ducts of the kidney, starting as small crystals, but grow as crystals do until they become lodged and prevent the passage of urine. As spiky, jagged masses, when these crystalline stones dislodge, pray that you are not driving? the pain is equated to the labor pains a mother goes through as she delivers a baby. On a scale of 1 to 10, the pain is often rated as a 10. There are several types and causes of kidney stones; again, no causal association is reported in the medical literature linking AAS use to kidney stones.

AAS Use and Kidney Disease

A possible relationship between recreational AAS use and kidney disease received recent press due to a poster presentation at the American Society of Nephrology.3,4 Pathologist Leal Herlitz, M.D. and colleagues reported their findings relating to the development and progression of a specific form of kidney disease in adult men. Their study compared two groups of men who were diagnosed as having the condition of focal segmental glomerulosclerosis (FSGS). The disorder is characterized by scarring in the cells that filter and secrete waste products into the urine, as well as retaining or reabsorbing essential biomolecules that the body does not want to waste or lose.

FSGS is suspected when kidney function diminishes (as determined by lab tests) and protein is 'spilled' into the urine. Normally, the urine is protein free, but as the filtering units begin to fail, levels of urinary protein increase. When urine protein levels become elevated, the urine will become foamy. Final diagnosis is usually obtained through a kidney biopsy.5

The study groups were composed of 10 men who had admitted to many years of anabolic steroid use (and other performance-enhancing drugs), and 10 men with the condition who were morbidly obese. The initial lab tests demonstrated greater strain and signs of impaired kidney function among the AAS users. Serum (blood) creatinine, the metabolic waste product generated from creatine (yes, the same molecule as the supplement) and cleared from the body by the kidneys, was markedly higher in AAS users (3.0 vs. 1.47 mg/dL? normal serum creatinine range is 0.8 to 1.4 mg/dL). As creatinine can only be secreted by the kidneys, serum concentration rises when the kidneys begin to fail. Urinary protein was also elevated to a significantly greater degree in the AAS-using group as protein 'leaked' into the urine.

When kidney tissue obtained by biopsy was examined under the microscope, the extent of tissue damage was greater in the AAS-users as well, represented by scarring of the glomerular and tubulointerstitial fields (areas involved in filtering urine).

Among the AAS-using men, eight were followed for an average of slightly longer than two years. All eight discontinued AAS use, reduced exercise, and were placed on drug therapy. One rapidly progressed to a dialysis-dependent condition called end stage renal disease. The others showed signs of improvement, with serum creatinine approaching the upper limit of normal, and urinary protein decreasing significantly? although it remained above the normal range seen in healthy people in several of the subjects.

One of the AAS-using subjects became dissatisfied with his body image, claiming he would rather be dialysis-dependent than live without a muscular body. [This would almost certainly qualify the subject for body dysmorphic syndrome. For those nodding in agreement with sacrificing your kidneys to fill an XXXL shirt? trust me, you do not want to become dialysis-dependent.] He went back to using AAS again, despite a history of AAS-related damage. His serum creatinine doubled from near-normal to again being indicative of FSGS. His urinary protein, which had happily cleared down to zero, became elevated to 14 within three and one-half years. At that rate, Dr. Herlitz predicted that he (the AAS-user) could progress to end stage renal disease in another four to five years.

This comparison suggested to Dr. Herlitz that AAS contribute to kidney damage. She proposed that in addition to supporting a greater body mass and placing greater stress on the kidneys, AAS may also have a direct toxic effect on the cells. Dr. Herlitz noted that creatinine is primarily produced in skeletal muscle, so logically a person with greater muscle mass will have elevated serum creatinine compared to a sedentary person, even if they are of similar weight. Furthermore, the higher dietary protein intake common to athletes and bodybuilders, as well as exercise-related hypertension (high blood pressure during physical exertion), can promote injury to the glomerular units of the kidney.

Other Factors Affect Your Kidneys

From the presentation, one might conclude that AAS are at least associated with a greater risk of kidney damage, and potentially may play both a direct and indirect role in harming that vital, paired set of organs. Further, the damage being done appears to be particularly virulent when compared to the control group used in this study, the morbidly obese (average BMI >40). However, FSGS is a non-specific finding present in a variety of conditions, and secondary to a number of known causes. The control group may or may not have been appropriately matched to the AAS-using group, as BMI cannot be used as an approximation for lean body mass, sometimes referred to as fat-free mass index.

Other known agents or conditions that may affect kidney status were not accounted for, so far as the press reports of this study revealed. Among the many factors that are associated with this form of kidney damage (i.e., use of opiate drugs, hypertension, hepatitis B, HIV, etc.), several have been reported in AAS users.6-9 Ibuprofen (e.g., Advil) has been associated with kidney damage, but a different form than FSGS.

Among the many drugs commonly used in conjunction with AAS, FSGS has been reported in a woman being treated for breast cancer with anastrozole.10 This drug, known by the brand name Arimidex, is often used in conjunction with AAS as it inhibits the enzyme aromatase. Using anastrozole, or related drugs, is common in AAS users wishing to self-treat or avoid estrogen-related side effects (many AAS are converted into estrogens by the enzyme aromatase). It is possible that the use of aromatase inhibitors or non-aromatizing AAS may be a significant factor in FSGS, or it may not be an issue at all. It is just too early to discern the factors related to AAS-associated kidney damage.

What is revealed by this study is that at least one type of kidney damage (FSGS) is related to AAS use. The presence of FSGS in AAS users is not proof of the drugs' causing or worsening the disease. The concentration of the disease in such a small geographic area, among a limited population, appears to be greater than one might suspect. The news release did not clarify the period when these cases appeared. The fact that the condition was resolved, at least partially when the men ceased using AAS, supports the possible involvement of AAS in the development or progression of FSGS. Another convincing observation was the case of the gentleman who returned to AAS use after his lab tests returned to normal, only to see the condition return and worsen with continued AAS use.

What does this report mean in terms of recreational AAS use? It should serve as a reminder that these are powerful drugs, and along with the benefits of greater strength and muscle mass, one also is exposed to the risk of any number of side effects. Few people take the time (and expense) of being screened for pre-existing conditions prior to using AAS. Few monitor the function of vital organs during and following AAS use to ensure that adverse side effects are not developing.

In addition to liver damage, psychological/mood disorders, changes in blood lipids, etc., AAS users should consider the potential for damaging their kidneys. Those who use AAS recreationally should have their kidney function checked prior to starting a cycle (preferably before the first cycle) by measuring serum (blood) levels of BUN and creatinine, as well as urine protein, including the sensitive microalbuminuria test.

AAS users should monitor their urine, looking for the development of foamy urine; purchasing urine dipsticks that will detect the presence of protein in the urine is even better. These urine dipsticks can be purchased online, but the use is no substitute for professional medical supervision and is no guarantee of safety.

Individuals who use AAS never want to hear of risks, dangers, injury, etc. There are many. AAS can be used safely but not indiscriminately. Placing these drugs in the hands of untrained and risk-seeking individuals is tantamount to harm. It is the cavalier attitude of many users that supports AAS legislation and restrictions on medical professionals.

Choosing to use AAS for performance enhancement or physique augmentation is viewed by many as a personal liberty, despite the legal disincentives. Regardless of one's philosophical stance, those choosing to use any drug, diet or technology need to do so in an informed manner. The revelation of kidney strain/damage in a representative group of AAS users needs to be considered during the decision process. Those who eventually use AAS need to be aware of the need to monitor the health and function of the kidneys, in addition to other potential risks.

References:

1. Hsu CY, Ordonez JD, et al. The risk of acute renal failure in patients with chronic kidney disease. Kidney Int, 2008 July;74(1):101-107.

2. Prat J, Gray GF, et al. Wilms tumor in an adult associated with androgen abuse. JAMA, 1977 May 23;237(21):2322-3.

3. Herlitz L, et al. "Development of FSGS following anabolic steroid use in bodybuilders." ASN, 2009; Abstract TH-PO163.

4. Neale T. ASN: Anabolic Steroid Abuse May Damage Kidneys. Medpage Today, 2009 Oct 30. Available at http://www.medpagetoday.com/tbindex.cfm?tbid=16705, accessed November 9, 2009.

5. Thomas DB. Focal segmental glomerulosclerosis: a morphologic diagnosis in evolution. Arch Pathol Lab Med, 2009 Feb;133(2):217-23.

6. Wines JD Jr, Gruber AJ, et al. Nalbuphine hydrochloride dependence in anabolic steroid users. Am J Addict, 1999 Spring;8(2):161-4.

7. Grace F, Sculthorpe N, et al. Blood pressure and rate pressure product response in males using high-dose anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS). J Sci Med Sport, 2003 Sep;6(3):307-12.

8. Crampin AC, Lamagni TL, et al. The risk of infection with HIV and hepatitis B in individuals who inject steroids in England and Wales. Epidemiol Infect, 1998 Oct;121(2):381-6.

9. Bolding G, Sherr L, et al. Use of anabolic steroids and associated health risks among gay men attending London gyms. Addiction, 2002 Feb;97(2):195-203.

10. Kalender ME, Sevinc A, et al. Anastrozole-associated sclerosing glomerulonephritis in a patient with breast cancer. Oncology, 2007;73(5-6):415-8.


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## malfeasance (Feb 27, 2014)

Since the kidney problems can clear up once steroids are ceased, maybe cycling off for periods of time is a really, really good idea for the kidneys.


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## heavyiron (Feb 27, 2014)

About 230 lbs 10% body fat

280-300 grams protein daily

1-1.5 lbs meat daily. The rest is from eggs or whey isolate.


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## malfeasance (Feb 27, 2014)

heavyiron said:


> or whey isolate.


I notice a lot of farting when drinking whey protein . . . yuck!


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## Paranoid Fitness (Feb 27, 2014)

malfeasance said:


> Individuals who use AAS never want to hear of risks, dangers, injury, etc.



As a user of AAS, I take offense to this statement. Such a broad statement leads me to believe the "study" it came from is more based on the opinion of the author than actual medical research and real world experience.

Not only am I an AAS user, I have stage 3 CKD. It was NOT caused by AAS use. It is a result of 148 chemo treatments over 9 sessions.

I have to be careful about what I eat, supplements I take and of course, any AAS and related compounds I use.

I have managed to come up with a GH/peptide combination that seems to work very well at preventing muscle wasting and excess protein in my urine.
I can consume far more than the recommended 80g of protein daily without an increase in serum creatinine or a lowering of GFR.

In fact, GFR and creatinine clearance have stayed where they were at when CKD was first discovered. 

My last AAS cycle did not affect kidney function at all, according to the bloodwork I had done pre, mid and post cycle. 

There is no cure for kidney disease, you can only hope to slow the progression which it appears, for now, I have managed to do.


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## KelJu (Feb 27, 2014)

Weight: 214
Height 6"2

Meal 1: (9:00am)  Scoop of whey
Meal 2: (10:00am) 2 Eggs, 2 egg whites
Meal 3: (12:30pm) 2 eggs, 2 egg whites, 1/2 cup oatmeal
Meal 4: (PWO) Scoop of Whey
Meal 5: (4:00pm) cup of cottege, cheese scoop of whey
Meal 6: (7:00pm) cup of cottege, cheese scoop of whey
Meal 7: (10:00om) 2 scoops of whey
Meal 8: (12:30am) scoop of casein


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## malfeasance (Feb 27, 2014)

Paranoid Fitness said:


> As a user of AAS, I take offense to this statement.


It's not my words, it is Dr. Guartney's words, and I did not post his article to offend anybody.  It is just more information.   Sorry about your kidney disease, and I hope all goes well for you.

I mainly included the article because of the discussion of bodybuilders with kidney issues that went away when steroids were discontinued, and reappeared for one when he started using steroids again.

I do not know how biased the doctor is, but he is a regular contributor to Muscular Development, so if anything I would think his bias would be in favor of using steroids.


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## exerciseordie (Feb 27, 2014)

About 2 1/2 pounds of meat a day not including eggs or egg whites


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## flood (Feb 27, 2014)

Does protein in the urine mean the glomerulin (sp?) process is screwed up? I had that when I worked construction but didn't lift heavy yet. Docs have no idea why - just lifted heavy stuff at work they guessed. We learned bout converting ammonia into urine in college, pretty amazing process.


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## Paranoid Fitness (Feb 27, 2014)

malfeasance said:


> It's not my words, it is Dr. Guartney's words, and I did not post his article to offend anybody.  It is just more information.   Sorry about your kidney disease, and I hope all goes well for you.
> 
> I mainly included the article because of the discussion of bodybuilders with kidney issues that went away when steroids were discontinued, and reappeared for one when he started using steroids again.
> 
> I do not know how biased the doctor is, but he is a regular contributor to Muscular Development, so if anything I would think his bias would be in favor of using steroids.



I understood that it was not your words, you copied and pasted. I was simply saying that the generalization was enough to tell me the study was biased and therefore flawed.

Did not mean for it to be taken the wrong way. I realized you were "quoting" and did not take offense to you, personally, nor do I mean to offend.

And thank you, I am doing OK for now. It will progress but I've slowed it about as much as possible.


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## KelJu (Feb 27, 2014)

I guess I am consuming almost no meat other than eggs. Anybody thing that is an issue?


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## HFO3 (Feb 27, 2014)

KelJu said:


> Weight: 214
> Height 6"2
> 
> Meal 1: (9:00am)  Scoop of whey
> ...



is this an average day for you?


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## malfeasance (Feb 28, 2014)

KelJu said:


> I guess I am consuming almost no meat other than eggs. Anybody thing that is an issue?



How much protein are you getting.  I would be worried about whether it is complete (necessary amino acids).  Are you vegetarian, but eat eggs?  What about beans and nuts and such?


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## KelJu (Feb 28, 2014)

HFO3 said:


> is this an average day for you?



That has been every weekday meal for almost 2 months. On the weekends, I eat food every meal. I cook a lot of stews and steamed veggies. The issue is I don't have a car, and I don't make a lot of money. I can pack whey in my backpack and make shakes during the workday. I also pack a container of cottage cheese in my bag along with workout cloths, pre-workouts, aminos, post-workouts, and any other thing I might need that day. I leave the house at 12:30 and don't get home until 11:00. 

Also I was vegan for about a year and a half, and meat clogs me up now.


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## HFO3 (Feb 28, 2014)

KelJu said:


> That has been every weekday meal for almost 2 months. On the weekends, I eat food every meal. I cook a lot of stews and steamed veggies. The issue is I don't have a car, and I don't make a lot of money. I can pack whey in my backpack and make shakes during the workday. I also pack a container of cottage cheese in my bag along with workout cloths, pre-workouts, aminos, post-workouts, and any other thing I might need that day. I leave the house at 12:30 and don't get home until 11:00.
> 
> Also I was vegan for about a year and a half, and meat clogs me up now.



Consider adding multiple kinds of beans and rice to your plan, make them on the weekends in a slow cooker to take to work with you during the week. Also jennie O lean turkey is about 3 bucks for a lb, that may not be too harsh on your system, it mixes well with beans and rice too

Either way, It sounds like you are getting it done way to go


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## theCaptn' (Mar 8, 2014)

I'm eating 700g of grass fed beef a day.... It's a lot to eat, but I'd rather avoid whey. I'm not losing muscle mass, and this equate to just under 1g protein per lb lbm.


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## flood (Mar 12, 2014)

theCaptn' said:


> I'm eating 700g of grass fed beef a day.... It's a lot to eat, but I'd rather avoid whey. I'm not losing muscle mass, and this equate to just under 1g protein per lb lbm.


Same. Grass fed organic rib eye almost everyday & turkey or chicken... WARNING; grass fed rib-eye is a bad drug never start.


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## exerciseordie (Mar 12, 2014)

Also want to say that I believe that you can make solid gains from just drinking whey protein. I am not anti shakes. At the same time I enjoy eating and not starving and if I go to too many shakes I starve.


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## Harjot Mundi (Apr 15, 2014)

1lb!


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