# Cytomel (T-3)



## musclepump (Mar 8, 2005)

How good is cytomel? And how much better is it than Clen? I'm not excited about the Clen side effects I've heard, so I'm interested in Cytomel. I don't know what the sides are and potential long term effects, so I guess in the end I may not be interested in it, either. So if you're in the know, please share your knowledge!


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## LAM (Mar 8, 2005)

I'll pick T3 over clen any day of the week.  I don't get bad sides from clen but enough where it can fuck up my workouts.  IMO, if you are using gear T3 should always be in the stack.


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## musclepump (Mar 8, 2005)

What if I'm not using any gear at the time and just want to burn some excess fat? Is t3 advisable? Serious sides?


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## Cardinal (Mar 8, 2005)

Clen fucks up my workouts as well.  

You would be better off trying to make a comparison b/w ephedrine HCL and clen.  If you don't want to run clen, why not just stack ephedrine, caffeine and T3?

A quick search on rxlist will probably give you a lot of potential medical sides.  T3 shits are one thing I noticed.  I think Dale has described them before.  No need to go into it here.

Most people preach using T3 only with anabolics.  Muscle loss is what you risk doing it without.


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## LAM (Mar 8, 2005)

musclepump said:
			
		

> What if I'm not using any gear at the time and just want to burn some excess fat? Is t3 advisable? Serious sides?



with a high protein intake you are definetly safe with using 25 mcg/ED off cycle


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## Tha Don (Mar 9, 2005)

LAM said:
			
		

> I don't get bad sides from clen but enough where it can fuck up my workouts.



nice! i've just got 300tabs through in the mail   

in what way dose clen fuck up your workouts? what sort of dose do you run? is clen not a bit safer that t3? tell me i didn't just waste my hard earned cash!


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## DOMS (Mar 9, 2005)

OR is there something that he can take to mitigate the sides?


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## Mudge (Mar 9, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> in what way dose clen fuck up your workouts? what sort of dose do you run? is clen not a bit safer that t3? tell me i didn't just waste my hard earned cash!



Was it the part about clen wasting away heart muscle that made you feel it was safer? Still people think you are going to fry your thyroid from using T3, I assume that is what you are freaked about. T3 sides are nothing compared to clen, I sweat, big damn deal. On clen if its taken too close to my workouts, I am still mildly shaky and definitely WEAK. I will lose 10-50 pounds on my movements, squats suck I promise.

I do 100 clen in the AM, far away from my nightly workout. To give you an idea, clen around 7AM and workout around 8:30PM.


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## Tha Don (Mar 9, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Was it the part about clen wasting away heart muscle that made you feel it was safer? Still people think you are going to fry your thyroid from using T3, I assume that is what you are freaked about. T3 sides are nothing compared to clen, I sweat, big damn deal. On clen if its taken too close to my workouts, I am still mildly shaky and definitely WEAK. *I will lose 10-50 pounds on my movements, squats suck I promise.*
> I do 100 clen in the AM, far away from my nightly workout. To give you an idea, clen around 7AM and workout around 8:30PM.



 damm!

okay thanks mudge, i'll do that

yes i was aware t3 can mess up your thyroid, clen just sounded less risky, a lot of articles i read on it made it sound pretty safe but obviously not, i'll start reading up a little more on t3 i think


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## Tha Don (Mar 9, 2005)

sorry if this is a stupid question... but why would clen lower your strength? just due to the extra strain on your system?

mudge do you still use clen, or don't you bother with it now?


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## brogers (Mar 9, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> damm!
> 
> okay thanks mudge, i'll do that
> 
> yes i was aware t3 can mess up your thyroid, clen just sounded less risky, a lot of articles i read on it made it sound pretty safe but obviously not, i'll start reading up a little more on t3 i think


Uh I'm pretty sure he meant T3 will NOT mess up your thyroid, I believe theres a study that shows people that were misdiagnosed with hypothyroidism and on thyroid drugs had their thyroid levels return to normal after a few weeks of discontinuing treatment. (This was after years of thyroid drug use). The thyroid shutdown is only temporary. Clenbuterol wasting your heart tissue away on the other hand is not "temporary".


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## musclepump (Mar 9, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Was it the part about clen wasting away heart muscle that made you feel it was safer? Still people think you are going to fry your thyroid from using T3, I assume that is what you are freaked about. T3 sides are nothing compared to clen, I sweat, big damn deal. On clen if its taken too close to my workouts, I am still mildly shaky and definitely WEAK. I will lose 10-50 pounds on my movements, squats suck I promise.
> 
> I do 100 clen in the AM, far away from my nightly workout. To give you an idea, clen around 7AM and workout around 8:30PM.


If it wastes away heart muscle, how come you still use it mudge?


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## Purdue Power (Mar 9, 2005)

It has been shown to waste away heart muscle at high doses.  At lower doses, the atrophy/hypertrophy balances out, I believe.  I have only read the article once.  Plus, with only going 2weeks on at a time, you are minimizing any of that.


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## Purdue Power (Mar 9, 2005)

LAM said:
			
		

> with a high protein intake you are definetly safe with using 25 mcg/ED off cycle


So if I was starting my cut, and I kept my protein intake to at around 1.5g/lb, would I be ok to run T3?  And would I get noticible differences if I were still eating a large excess of protein while trying to cut with T3?  What about with pct?  When will I stop asking questions?


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## LAM (Mar 9, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> sorry if this is a stupid question... but why would clen lower your strength?



clen has an adverse effect on insulin action.  this causes less glucose to be stored as glycogen.


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## LAM (Mar 9, 2005)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> So if I was starting my cut, and I kept my protein intake to at around 1.5g/lb, would I be ok to run T3?  And would I get noticible differences if I were still eating a large excess of protein while trying to cut with T3?  What about with pct?  When will I stop asking questions?



yes, but like I said if you are off cycle keep the dosage to 25 mcg/ED.  the increase in your BMR from the T3 along with the TEF from high protein meals well definetly make cutting easier.

you can use guggulsterones for PCT when coming off the T3.  2-3 weeks should do.


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## musclepump (Mar 9, 2005)

TEF?

What do guggulsterones do?


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## Purdue Power (Mar 9, 2005)

Guggulsterones are like a tribulus equivalent for the thyroid.  It is a more natural way to raise your thryroid output.


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## Purdue Power (Mar 9, 2005)

LAM said:
			
		

> yes, but like I said if you are off cycle keep the dosage to 25 mcg/ED. the increase in your BMR from the T3 along with the TEF from high protein meals well definetly make cutting easier.


Ya, could you expand your acronyms?


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## musclepump (Mar 9, 2005)

twenty-five... micrograms... every day... basal metabolic rate... getting stuck on the TEF...


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## musclepump (Mar 9, 2005)

I read somewhere that the pro's like King Kamali who tout eating McDonalds all the time can do it and still be cut because of T3. Is it _that_ powerful?


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## redspy (Mar 9, 2005)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> It has been shown to waste away heart muscle at high doses. At lower doses, the atrophy/hypertrophy balances out, I believe. I have only read the article once. Plus, with only going 2weeks on at a time, you are minimizing any of that.


The doses in the heart muscle necrosis study were well within the normal range of clen usage.


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## redspy (Mar 9, 2005)

Here's another clen study that I thought was interesting. Personally I've stopped taking clen and prefer T3.


*Clenbuterol Sabotages Adaptation to Training* 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted on mesomorphosis.com
article by-Bryan Haycock, MS, CSCS


Title: Attenuating the decline in ATP arrests the exercise training-induced increases in muscle GLUT4 protein and citrate synthase activity.

Researchers:
Yaspelkis BB 3rd, Castle AL, Ding Z, Ivy JL
Department of Kinesiology, The University of Texas at Austin, 78712, USA.

Source:
Acta Physiol Scand 1999 Jan;165(1):71-9

Summary:

Thirty-two rats were assigned to one of four groups: control (CON); exercise training (TR); exercise training + clenbuterol treatment (0.8 mg/kg/day ) (TR + CL) or exercise training + clenbuterol treatment + 2% beta-guanidinoproprionic acid diet (TR + CL + beta) to examine whether alterations in the ATP levels within the muscle mediates exercise training-induced increases in skeletal muscle GLUT4 protein concentration and citrate synthase activity. Exercise training consisted of running the rats 5 d week(-1) for 8 weeks on a motor-driven treadmill (32 m min(-1), 15% grade).

Gastrocnemius GLUT4 protein concentration and citrate synthase activity were significantly elevated in the TR animals, but these adaptations were attenuated in the TR + CL animals. Providing beta-GPA in combination with clenbuterol enabled training to elevate GLUT4 protein concentration and citrate synthase activity, with the increase in GLUT4 being greater than that observed for the TR animals. Skeletal muscle ATP levels were reduced in the TR + CL + beta animals while ATP levels in the TR + CL animals were significantly elevated compared with CON. An acute 40-min bout of electrical stimulation of the sciatic nerve was found to lower skeletal muscle ATP levels by approximately 50% and elevate cAMP levels in all groups. No difference in post-contraction cAMP levels were observed among groups. However, post-contraction ATP levels in the TR + CL animals were significantly greater than the other groups.

Collectively, these findings suggest that exercise training-induced increases in skeletal muscle GLUT4 protein concentration and citrate synthase activity are initiated in response to a reduction in the skeletal muscle ATP concentration.

Discussion:
Adaptation to training involves increased oxidative capacity of muscle cells along with increases in the muscle???s ability to take up glucose. Increases in the oxidative capacity of muscle cells are characterized by increases in Krebs cycle enzymes. Enhanced glucose uptake is accomplished through increased glucose transporter protein (GLUT 4) content in the muscle cell.

The primary function of the Krebs cycle (also called TCA Cycle or Citric Acid Cycle) is to completely oxidize acetyl groups (derived from the breakdown of glucose, fatty acids, some amino acids, & ketones) in a way that results in ATP formation. Oxidation of acetyl CoA accounts for about two thirds of the ATP formation and oxygen consumption in mammals. Citrate synthase is the enzyme which starts the Krebs cycle by combining Acetyl CoA and oxaloacetate to form citrate. By measuring its activity researchers are able to measure increases in oxidative capacity as a result of exercise training.

Glucose uptake in muscle tissue occurs by facilitated diffusion. The term "facilitated" refers to the use of proteins, embedded in the cell membrane, which help the glucose to diffuse across the membrane. These proteins don???t remain in the cell membrane all the time, rather, they are translocated to the cell surface when insulin attaches to its receptor or when muscle contractions occur. The glucose transporter proteins most sensitive to insulin and muscle contraction are called GLUT 4 proteins. With exercise training, increased GLUT 4 content within muscle cells increases the muscle???s ability to take up glucose from the blood both during exercise and in the presents of insulin. This results in a "nutrient partitioning" (there???s a term you haven???t heard in a while) effect by increasing the portion of dietary carbohydrates that are used by the muscles rather than fat cells.

In the study above it was shown that these adaptations that are normally seen with exercise training, are blocked when the animals were on clenbuterol. Clenbuterol, by activating beta receptors, and thus stimulating adenylate cyclase activity, artificially maintains ATP levels within the cell. When this happens, there is no increase in GLUT 4 protein content nor is there an increase in citrate synthase activity. There appears to be a threshold below which ATP concentrations must fall before your muscles begin long term adaptive changes.

What does all this mean for Clenbuterol users? Well, if you are a performance athlete stay away from it during the competitive season. Clen will inhibit the necessary increases in oxidative capacity need for enhanced athletic performance with training. It will also hamper your attempts to replenish glycogen stores as quickly as possible after competitions.

If you are a bodybuilder Clen is probably going to decrease glycogen storage not only from lower GLUT 4 levels but also from enhanced glycogenolytic activity. It is wrong to assume that ephedrine would be any different. Anything that is going to enhance adenylate cyclase activity such as clenbuterol, ephedrine, or even forskolin, is going to prevent these adaptive processes in response to exercise training. Fortunately, metabolic adaptations are not the key to muscle growth. Nevertheless, increases in oxidative capacity and increased GLUT 4 content are valuable adaptations when trying to train and recover at ever increasing levels.


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## Cardinal (Mar 9, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> sorry if this is a stupid question... but why would clen lower your strength? just due to the extra strain on your system?



This is exactly why I deemed it to give me crappy workouts.  I was flat out weaker than I expected.  After searching on about 10 boards, I finally found some others that get the same problem.  Definitely isn't that common from what I understand though.  A lot of people like it.


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## Cardinal (Mar 9, 2005)

LAM said:
			
		

> clen has an adverse effect on insulin action.  this causes less glucose to be stored as glycogen.



I recently had a pretty bad heart arrhythmia that didn't seem to go away.  I suspect this may have made it worse and is the reason why I wish to take it slowly if use T3 again.  I know it can cause palpitations.  Increased activity of the SNS is a very common cause of irregular heart action.


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## Tha Don (Mar 9, 2005)

okay forget clen then

what would be a typical t3 cycle while off anabolics? 

say 25mcg/ed (which is what LAM recommended) for how long? could t3 be used instead of clen at the start of pct to stay lean while eating above maintenance cals?


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## Cardinal (Mar 9, 2005)

musclepump said:
			
		

> I read somewhere that the pro's like King Kamali who tout eating McDonalds all the time can do it and still be cut because of T3. Is it _that_ powerful?



Look at their maintenance intake and genetics.  T3 is only part of the picture.  They are also probably on GH with the roids they take.  Pile on partitioner on another and another and you shouldn't have problems chomping on some McDonalds.


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## musclepump (Mar 9, 2005)

t3 can cause palpitations too?


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## Cardinal (Mar 9, 2005)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> Ya, could you expand your acronyms?



TEF = thermic effects of feeding.  Protein is considered to be roughly 15-25% thermic from what I understand (by understand I mean I read it over at bodyrecomposition and take it as gospel).

T3 jacks up both protein synthesis and protein breakdown.  It makes everything all systems go come to think about it.  General increase in basal metabolic rate.


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## Cardinal (Mar 9, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> okay forget clen then
> 
> what would be a typical t3 cycle while off anabolics?
> 
> say 25mcg/ed (which is what LAM recommended) for how long? could t3 be used instead of clen at the start of pct to stay lean while eating above maintenance cals?



T3 during PCT is not advisable imo.  It is not worth the risk of muscle loss for most people.  Clen or ephedrine would both be far superior choices given that they are both anti-catabolic.  

Six weeks is a common cycle length for T3 though lengths vary widely.  Some stay on it damn near all the time.  I suspect 6-8 weeks is common b/c that is also a common length for a a cutter like Test Prop/Tren.

Additionally, many people don't really notice T3 effect for 1-2 weeks after starting.  So really short cycles don't make a lot of sense to me.  And from what I understand even after GREATLY extending cycle length recovery is not extended much beyond say 6 weeks at the most.


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## Cardinal (Mar 9, 2005)

musclepump said:
			
		

> t3 can cause palpitations too?



So can clen, ephedrine, caffeine and most any stimulant.  Such drugs are contraindicated for someone with an existing heart problem or with a genetic history of problems.


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## redspy (Mar 9, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> okay forget clen then
> 
> what would be a typical t3 cycle while off anabolics?
> 
> say 25mcg/ed (which is what LAM recommended) for how long? could t3 be used instead of clen at the start of pct to stay lean while eating above maintenance cals?


This might help - http://www.conversionboard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1383


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## Mudge (Mar 9, 2005)

Cardinal said:
			
		

> TEF = thermic effects of feeding.  Protein is considered to be roughly 15-25% thermic from what I understand (by understand I mean I read it over at bodyrecomposition and take it as gospel).



I was just talking about that in a missplaced thread this morning. I think Chris Aceto said 15-20% or so, I dont recall for certain. Fats being around 3% at best, carbs being in the middle.

I never had issues on T3 other than crazy sweats, the clen gives me worse sides. I have heard of rashing for some people on T3, and high BP with one person on this board.


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