# Pyramid or Straight sets



## aad123 (Jul 12, 2011)

I am currently mid way through my first real cut and when I reach my goal of 10 to 12% body fat I am planning on going onto a bulking diet over the winter. To get the most out of my bulk I want to ensure my training is spot on. I was wondering if anyone had any advice on the merits of pyramid sets or straight sets.
I am planning of doing four sets for compound movements squats, deadlifts, mill press, bench press and bent row. For these sets I am planning on pyramiding the weight up starting with 12 reps then 10reps, 8 reps and finally 6 reps. I have chose the rep range best suited to hypertrophy.( I did try a strong lifts 5x5 workout for a while but didn't find it to my liking. I seemed to finish up stronger but smaller and fatter).
For the supporting \ isolation movements I may follow the same 12/10/8/6 protocol or do 3 straight sets of 8 to 10 reps.
Do you guys think that pyramiding every exercise for every workout would lead to over training ? Are pyramid sets worth whild doing or should I STICK TO 3X80/10 ? Please advise and let me know what has worked for you.


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## Captn'stabbin (Jul 12, 2011)

i always like to pyramid up till my last work set is around 6-8.


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## SuperLift (Jul 12, 2011)

Captn'stabbin said:


> i always like to pyramid up till my last work set is around 6-8.



Sounds about what I do. 4-5 sets starting at 12-15 reps and build the weight up working down to about 4-8 reps on the last set, depending on the exercise. Squats and Deads ill work down to 4 reps. Other exercises Ill usually stop at 6-8 reps min.


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## VolcomX311 (Jul 12, 2011)

Without getting into what???s superior to what, I???ll simply point out what???s going on in a pyramid set. The purpose and use of pyramiding is maximizing the recruitment of motor units. Motor units innervate muscle fibers and the more motor units you recruit, the more muscle fibers you can ultimately recruit to contract during a lift. A light set recruits X amount of motor units, a moderate set recruits a greater amount of motor units and so on.... and physiologically speaking, the closer you get to your maximum recruitment of motor units, the more muscle fibers you are able to activate and contract and the heavier you can lift.  That's the primary function of pyramiding from a physiological stand point.


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## pebble (Jul 12, 2011)

Captn'stabbin said:


> i always like to pyramid up till my last work set is around 6-8.




This is common, but it works against the most fundamental principle of training.  The muscle is not being overloaded optimally until the last set.  If you are going to do pyramids, waves tend to work better in theory.


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## Captn'stabbin (Jul 12, 2011)

pebble said:


> This is common, but it works against the most fundamental principle of training.  The muscle is not being overloaded optimally until the last set.  If you are going to do pyramids, waves tend to work better in theory.





VolcomX311 said:


> Without getting into what???s superior to what, I???ll simply point out what???s going on in a pyramid set. The purpose and use of pyramiding is maximizing the recruitment of motor units. Motor units innervate muscle fibers and the more motor units you recruit, the more muscle fibers you can ultimately recruit to contract during a lift. A light set recruits X amount of motor units, a moderate set recruits a greater amount of motor units and so on.... and physiologically speaking, the closer you get to your maximum recruitment of motor units, the more muscle fibers you are able to activate and contract and the heavier you can lift.  That's the primary function of pyramiding from a physiological stand point.



this. Someone paid attention in class...


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## minimal (Jul 12, 2011)

i like pyramid.. lets me do both light and heavy


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## Captn'stabbin (Jul 12, 2011)

aad123 said:


> I am currently mid way through my first real cut and when I reach my goal of 10 to 12% body fat I am planning on going onto a bulking diet over the winter. To get the most out of my bulk I want to ensure my training is spot on. I was wondering if anyone had any advice on the merits of pyramid sets or straight sets.
> I am planning of doing four sets for compound movements squats, deadlifts, mill press, bench press and bent row. For these sets I am planning on pyramiding the weight up starting with 12 reps then 10reps, 8 reps and finally 6 reps. I have chose the rep range best suited to hypertrophy.( I did try a strong lifts 5x5 workout for a while but didn't find it to my liking. I seemed to finish up stronger but smaller and fatter).
> For the supporting \ isolation movements I may follow the same 12/10/8/6 protocol or do 3 straight sets of 8 to 10 reps.
> Do you guys think that pyramiding every exercise for every workout would lead to over training ? Are pyramid sets worth whild doing or should I STICK TO 3X80/10 ? Please advise and let me know what has worked for you.



One other thing i can tell you is, trial and error...

Start a log and track your progress with one method if nothing is really working then switch to a different method. Unfortunately what works for me won't necessarily work for you.

Make sure you are training hard, getting adequate sleep and most important make sure your diet is solid. If you don't have fuel in your tank you can't get anywhere.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jul 12, 2011)

pebble said:


> This is common, but it works against the most fundamental principle of training.  The muscle is not being overloaded optimally until the last set.



Pebble, 

*Pyramids*

As you point out, the problem with a pyramid is you ware youself out before you get to your most productive top set.  

*Warm Up*

The point of a warm up is to prepare you for your top set.  Thus, the minimal amount of a warm up enables you to push more weight or reps in your top set.



pebble said:


> If you are going to do pyramids, waves tend to work better in theory.



*Inverted Pyramid*

A more effective method is an Inverted Pyramid. 

*Bench Press*

Let's say your top bench press is 250 X 5.

*Sets, Reps, Weight Inverted Pyramid Example *

Set 1: 135 X 8

Set 2: 160 X 3

Set 3: 200 X 2

Set 4: 225 X 1

Set 5: 250 X 5 plus reps

Kenny Croxdale


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## Captn'stabbin (Jul 12, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> Pebble,
> 
> *Pyramids*
> 
> ...



Don't you think that applies more to a PL'er than BB'er? I prefer to be fully warmed before going heavy especially on the first exercise. Shit i saw a guy tear his Bicep yesterday spotting.


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## aad123 (Jul 13, 2011)

Would a type of reverse pyramid set work. For example I do a 12 - 15 rep warm-up set and then go straight to the heavy working set for 6 reps. I then drop the weight for the next set aiming for 8 reps then I drop the weight again for the final set aiming for 10 reps. That way I'm getting the benifit from the heavy set whilst I'm still fresh and I also cover the entire 12 / 6 rep range.
Just putting ideas out to see what you guys think.  

Also could you explain what WAVE pyramids are.


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## VolcomX311 (Jul 13, 2011)

aad123 said:


> Would a type of reverse pyramid set work. For example I do a 12 - 15 rep warm-up set and then go straight to the heavy working set for 6 reps. I then drop the weight for the next set aiming for 8 reps then I drop the weight again for the final set aiming for 10 reps. That way I'm getting the benifit from the heavy set whilst I'm still fresh and I also cover the entire 12 / 6 rep range.
> Just putting ideas out to see what you guys think.
> 
> Also could you explain what WAVE pyramids are.


 
Some peope reverse pyramid. The best advice is to just do whatever you're doing until your body stops respondng to what you're doing, then you can move on to something new, like HIT, DC, 5x5, Volume Training...etc., all of it elicits a unique form of intensity and all of it is good for a season. The bottom line to building muscle is stress and adaptation, new stress elicits new adaptations, once the body becomes efficient toward a particular form of stress, the adaptation process slows dramatically and by adaptation I'm speaking specifically of muscle hypertrophy. Unless you're training for sports where velocity movements should be a prime focus or you're power lifting where strength and strength alone is a prime focus, you can play with a lot of training methods and reap positive results.

Arnold used uber volume training, Dorian used HIT, Dave Henry uses DC and Jay Cutler uses traditional pyramiding, some of these are polar opposites in style relative to volume x intensity, but all can be effective.  There are a lot of effective approaches to eliciting muscle hypertrophy, so don't get stuck on what's superior to what.  Good luck.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jul 13, 2011)

Captn'stabbin said:


> Don't you think that applies more to a PL'er than BB'er?



Captn'stabbin,

The same principle applies with bodybuilders.  The purpose is to warm up for you top set rather than wear youself out before you get there. 



Captn'stabbin said:


> I prefer to be fully warmed before going heavy especially on the first exercise.



You can do that with an Inverted Pyramid.  I've used that method since about 1980 for strength and hypertrophy (bodybuilding), with no problems.

Pavel's _Beyond Strengthing_ (book) goes into the value of limiting your warm up so you have more for yout top sets.

What you want to do is find the minimal amount of warmp ups that prepare you for your top sets. 



Captn'stabbin said:


> Shit i saw a guy tear his Bicep yesterday spotting.



More than likely, it was an accident waiting to happen.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## Anabolic5150 (Jul 13, 2011)

I've trained both by pyramiding and reverse pyramiding, and find that both have merits. The only downside to pyramiding is that some will leave a bit to much in the tank for that last heavy set. Doing this keeps the first sets from being as productive. Also, the chance of injury in my opinion is greater with reverse pyramiding if one doesn't warm up properly.

It all comes down to what works best for you. If you can generate enough intensity, and type of workout will yield results.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jul 13, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> I've trained both by pyramiding and reverse pyramiding, and find that both have merits. The only downside to pyramiding is that some will leave a bit to much in the tank for that last heavy set.



Anabolic,

Having more in the tank for you last heavy set means you can either crank out more reps that you expecected or that you can increase your top set.  That a good thing.  



Anabolic5150 said:


> Doing this keeps the first sets from being as productive.



The first set of what, your warm up?




Anabolic5150 said:


> Also, the chance of injury in my opinion is greater with reverse pyramiding if one doesn't warm up properly.



What information is your opinion based on?  

As I stated, you want to perform the minimal amount of warm up to insure you at your best.  

The problem (as I've stated) is that many individuals turn their warm up in to a workout.  

Thus, you have nothing in the tank rather than "having a bit too much in the tank..."


Anabolic5150 said:


> It all comes down to what works best for you. If you can generate enough intensity, and type of workout will yield results.



A lot of it comes down more to a "conditioned reaction".  Anything new doesn't initially feel right...even though it might be. 

Most individuals stick with what they know rather than try new ideas.  

At least you tried it.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## Anabolic5150 (Jul 13, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> Anabolic,
> 
> Having more in the tank for you last heavy set means you can either crank out more reps that you expecected or that you can increase your top set.  That a good thing.
> 
> ...



I'm my own lab rat Bro, after 20+ years of doing this, you pretty much have tried everything unless you have your head buried in the sand.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jul 13, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> I'm my own lab rat Bro, after 20+ years of doing this, you pretty much have tried everything unless you have your head buried in the sand.



You more of an exception to the rule in trying new methods.  

Most individuals are afraid they are going to lose ground and go backward when they try something new, which may well happen.  

It is part of the learning process.  However, it more like taking one step backward and two steps forward. 

Kenny Croxdale


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## Captn'stabbin (Jul 13, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> Captn'stabbin,
> 
> The same principle applies with bodybuilders.  The purpose is to warm up for you top set rather than wear youself out before you get there.
> 
> ...



I have done those pyramids before and i find that my balance is off and it just feels wrong. I like to work up in 20lb increments on DB's and it seems the best for me. 
Ex. warm up set of 60's X 20+
80's X 10
100's X 10
sometimes from here i go to 110's X 6 to test the waters then
120's X what ever i get them for 4-7

I don't think it detracts from my workouts at all, i feel it helps me recruit more muscles fibers to handle heavier weight more safely. If that makes sense.


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## Anabolic5150 (Jul 13, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> You more of an exception to the rule in trying new methods.
> 
> Most individuals are afraid they are going to lose ground and go backward when they try something new, which may well happen.
> 
> ...



My very first training partner told me something that has always stuck with me. He said and I will quote "You do the same shit tomorrow that you did today, you'll look exactly the same next year as you did yesterday."

I was like WTF?? But it opened my eyes to changing things up and noting the results over a period of time. It helped me get where I am today.


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## Anabolic5150 (Jul 13, 2011)

Captn'stabbin said:


> I have done those pyramids before and i find that my balance is off and it just feels wrong. I like to work up in 20lb increments on DB's and it seems the best for me.
> Ex. warm up set of 60's X 20+
> 80's X 10
> 100's X 10
> ...



Don't know if you've ever heard of MaxOT training, used by Skip LaCour. I don't train their style, but the have a great read on proper warmups. If I can find it, I'll post it. It's the way I warm up now, really seems to work.


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## Anabolic5150 (Jul 13, 2011)

Warming up the Max-OT way

I want you to remember the following. Max-OT is all about building muscle. Max-OT takes the approach that every rep, every set and every workout is done for one reason - to build muscle and strength. This is very important. If you do a rep, set, or entire workout with weights for any other reason then you need to seriously question just why you are training in the first place. 

Any time you wrap your hands around a bar and start a set it should be approached with the mindset of building muscle and strength. You should be able to quantify why you do each rep. What other physiological reason is there for lifting weights? So every time you do a rep you know that that rep is either directly involved in building muscle or is a necessary prerequisite to the muscle building reps. 

How most lifters fail to take the right approach from the very start 

Efficiency is one of the main attributes of Max-OT training. The more efficient you train the more effective your workout is going to be, the more muscle you are going to build and the quicker you are going to build that muscle. 

Why expend precious energy without using maximum efficiency? Warming-up properly is an area of training that should be performed with the utmost efficiency because it is the prelude to building muscle.

Warming up improperly will impede your ability to maximize muscle overload, total muscle fiber stimulation, and growth
Warming up correctly will allow you to expend the maximum physical mental intensity on the sets that count the most - the muscle building sets.

Warming up the right way

Here we are going to take the Bench Press and show you a proper warm-up technique that will allow you to lift more weight on your heavy sets. Remember, more weight - more overload - more muscle. 

Again well use 275 as your heavy weight. If you typically warm-up and train like I pointed out earlier the 275 will feel a lot lighter this time.

First Set:
135 x 12 reps (warm-up)

These should be good smooth reps. Not too slow and not to fast. Your main goal is to increase blood flow and get the feel of the movement and the weight. After this first set you should rest about 2 minutes.

Second Set:
135 x 10 reps (warm-up)

Same weight as before. Rhythm should be a little faster this time. Not much faster. Rest about 2 minutes.

Third Set:
185 x 6 reps (warm-up) 

This should be a deliberate set done at a moderate pace. This is the next step in weight acclimation. It should feel light and 4 reps should be very easy. Rest about 2 to 3 minutes before the next set.

Fourth Set:
225 x 3 reps (weight acclimation) 

You should follow the same rhythm as in the last set. 3 strong reps. Rest 2 minutes before next set.

Fifth Set:
255 x 1 rep (weight acclimation)

That's right, just 1 rep. The purpose here is weight acclimation. This should be a strong, powerful and deliberate rep.

Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth Sets:
285 x 4 to 6 reps (muscle-building)

These are the muscle building sets. Very important. These are the only sets that produce muscle growth. All the sets leading up to these heavy sets are merely warm-up sets and are treated as just that and nothing more.

Notice we went to 285 instead of 275. Warming up the Max-OT allows you to use heavier weight during the most important muscle building sets.

Posted on: October 17 08
Posted by: Paul Delia	 ,President	 -AS


Copied from the Max OT website verbatim.


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## caaraa (Jul 13, 2011)

Without getting into what’s superior to what, I’ll simply point out what’s going on in a pyramid set.


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## Captn'stabbin (Jul 13, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> Warming up the Max-OT way
> 
> I want you to remember the following. Max-OT is all about building muscle. Max-OT takes the approach that every rep, every set and every workout is done for one reason - to build muscle and strength. This is very important. If you do a rep, set, or entire workout with weights for any other reason then you need to seriously question just why you are training in the first place.
> 
> ...



Interesting, i'll try it out and see how it feels.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jul 14, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> Warming up the Max-OT way
> 
> I want you to remember the following. Max-OT is all about building muscle. Max-OT takes the approach that every rep, every set and every workout is done for one reason - to build muscle and strength. This is very important. If you do a rep, set, or entire workout with weights for any other reason then you need to seriously question just why you are training in the first place.
> 
> ...



Anabolic,

*Max-OT "Inverted Pyramid Warm Ups--Heavier Weight Muscle Building Sets*

I appreciate you posting that article.  It certainly supports my position on warm ups.

I don't see much value in two warm up sets with 135.  However, I don't see any harm either. 

*The Size Principle*

While higher reps with light loads increase blood flow to the muscle, very few Type II Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are innervated.  

Primarily, Type I Slow Twich Muscle Fiber primarily involved.  

*Increasing Type II Fast Twich Muscle Fiber* 

As we know, Type II Fast Twitch is immediately innervated with heavy movements, power movements, and speed movements.  

Thus, driving the bar up with more speed and power in your warm up innervates these Type II Fast Twich Muscle Fiber. 

Driving the bar up with more speed and power also warms up the central nervous system, the "mother board" of movement.  

Thus, an effective method of warming up the muscles as well as your central nervous system is: 

*Compensatory Acceleration Cluster Set Warm Up*

Cluster Sets taken with short rest periods between them, approximately 10-30seconds.  These short rest periods allow you to exert more force (power and speed). 

Thus, rather than performing a non-stop set of 135 X 10-12 reps, the Cluster Set Warm Up would involve:

1) Performing 2-3 reps per set. 

2) Racking the bar. 

3) Resting 10-30 seconds. 

4) Peforming 2-3 more reps.  

5) Repeating the process for a total of 10-12 reps.

*Ramping Up Bar Speed*

What you want to do is move the bar with as much speed and power as you can.  

Since it's a warm up, you want to gradually increase the bar speed with each Cluster Set.  

*Example of 135 Cluster Warm Up Set*

Again, take 10-30 second rest periods between sets. 

Set 1: 135 X 3 reps with moderate speed.

Set 2: 135 X 3 reps, a bit more speed.  

Set 3: 135 X 3 reps, with even more speed. 

Set 4: 135 X 3 reps, with more speed than in set 3.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## aad123 (Jul 14, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> Warming up the Max-OT way
> 
> I want you to remember the following. Max-OT is all about building muscle. Max-OT takes the approach that every rep, every set and every workout is done for one reason - to build muscle and strength. This is very important. If you do a rep, set, or entire workout with weights for any other reason then you need to seriously question just why you are training in the first place.
> 
> ...


 
Would this system work whilst I'm cutting?
I currently train 4 days a week on a 2 day split.
Day 1
        Squats - Mill Press - Pulldows - Curls
Day 2
        Deadlift -Bench Press - Bent Row - Dips

I have based my workout around compound movements to prevent muscle loss and reduce time in the gym whilst dieting. I currently do 3 sets of 10 for the first 3 movements and 2 sets of 12 for the final movements.

Also with the high number of sets in this system would you only perform one exercise per body part or would you do it only on the first compound movement with other isolation exercises for the same muscle group done is a different way ?
With the 6th, 7th & 8th sets would you increase the weight once you get 6 reps for each set ?
Sorry to ask so many questions but if I intend to give this system a fair trial then I need to know exactly how it works.

As I was told by an old fella in the gym "If you keep doing what you have always done then you will keep getting what you have always got" and "if you fail to plan you plan to fail"


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## Anabolic5150 (Jul 14, 2011)

aad123 said:


> Would this system work whilst I'm cutting?
> I currently train 4 days a week on a 2 day split.
> Day 1
> Squats - Mill Press - Pulldows - Curls
> ...



The outline is just for warm ups, the last three sets at 285 as listed above are the work sets. You can go to AST-SS.com or google Max OT training and they have a free online tutorial of the whole program. Would it work for cutting, probably, but I have never used the program, just the warm ups.

My understanding is that once you get to the top rep number (six here) that yes you increase weight.

I'd get the whole course, it is free, read it and analyze and then see if it works for you Bro. Give it a good 8-12 week try.


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## aad123 (Jul 15, 2011)

I have had a read of the MAX-OT training and the system seems a little too rigid. I understand the warm up section but the exercises are too set. In a small gym like the one I use you need to be flexible with your workouts. I was thinking of using a periodization system rotating between 5x5, 4x8/12, pyramids or reverse pyramids. I will either change on a weekly basis or possibly a 4/6 weekly rotation. Using this method I will get a solid strength base from the 5x5 portion, hypertrophy from the 4x8/12 and a little of both from the pyramids. With the constant change in weights and reps my body will be confused and forced to adapt and grow.
With exercise selection I was thinking 3 to 4 exercises for larger muscle groups (2 compound and 1 isolation) and 2 exercises for smaller muscle groups.
My training split would be something along the lines of
Legs
Chest & Tri
Back & Bi
Shoulders & traps.

How does this all sound ?
What would you change ?


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## Anabolic5150 (Jul 15, 2011)

Max OT is very rigid, that's why I have never used it. I like to train by feel, to get "freaky" at times. But for some it works perfectly. Have to try it and see.


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## ahiggs (Jul 16, 2011)

i have used max ot...well a basterdized version of it.  so by their rule i guess i really haven't done it, but that being said.
i spent a long time using max ot as a platform 
2 to 3 sets 4 to 6 reps
no more than 9 reps per workout, and made some pretty nice gains, i was not trying to cut so i don't know how well it would work for that?


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## MDR (Jul 16, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> I'm my own lab rat Bro, after 20+ years of doing this, you pretty much have tried everything unless you have your head buried in the sand.


 
I'd have to agreee with this.  Finding out what works for you is a major part of success, and it takes a lot of experimentation and willingness to try new training philosophies.


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## Anabolic5150 (Jul 17, 2011)

MDR said:


> I'd have to agreee with this.  Finding out what works for you is a major part of success, and it takes a lot of experimentation and willingness to try new training philosophies.



Just have to open your mind and say fuck it for the next 8, 10, 12 weeks and give shit a try. Like Dante Trudel (DOGGCRAPP) says, "get freaky with it".

My training gets freaky today, gonna try something new for 12 weeks and see what happens. Been doing push/legs/pull for a while now, gonna go to a periodized 4 day split. Here we go!!


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## aad123 (Jul 17, 2011)

I start phase 2 of my cutting diet tomorrow. I lost 17lb over 13 weeks but in weeks 10 to 13 my losses slowed down and my weight seemed to stall at 168lb. I took 4 week off the diet and increased my carbs and hit the weights hard and heavy for that period. Have you any advise on training whilst cutting to prevent muscle loss and increase fat burning. Some people train the same on a cut but others modify their lifting, where do you stand ?


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## MDR (Jul 17, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> Just have to open your mind and say fuck it for the next 8, 10, 12 weeks and give shit a try. Like Dante Trudel (DOGGCRAPP) says, "get freaky with it".
> 
> My training gets freaky today, gonna try something new for 12 weeks and see what happens. Been doing push/legs/pull for a while now, gonna go to a periodized 4 day split. Here we go!!


 
Yep.  If you've been training for 25+ years like me, what's a few weeks for a little experiment, right?  I always look forward to switching things up a bit.  Good luck with the variation.


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## Anabolic5150 (Jul 17, 2011)

MDR said:


> Yep.  If you've been training for 25+ years like me, what's a few weeks for a little experiment, right?  I always look forward to switching things up a bit.  Good luck with the variation.



Thanks Bro, been doing this shit 30 years plus. A little variety never hurts, in fact today was a little "freaky!!!!"


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## aad123 (Aug 4, 2011)

I'v been doing a push, pull, leg split for the past 2 weeks now and I am realy finding to be a very effective way of working. I only do 3 movemrnts per workout on a 5x5 system. When I reach 7 reps on the last set I increase the weight by 5lb. 

Push
30 deg incline db press
seated db shoulder press
weighted dips 

pull
rack pulls
close grip t-bar row
pull downs

legs
squats
stiff leg deadlift
calf raise

The workouts are short but intence. I will follow this programme until I stop making progress then I will switch thing around, maybe increase the reps and reduce the set and possibly addd a second movement for each muscle group eg. 3x8 inc press followed by 2x12 flys.

There is a guy in the gym I use who trains 2.5 hours per session 4 days a week. He wasn't too happy when I sergested that he was wasting most of his time and he would quickley become burned out and over trained. His reply was that I would never see any progress training for 45-60 mins 3 times a week. I guess time will tell !!!


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