# Var cycle, diet, and training experiences!



## PLpb (Sep 29, 2014)

Still currently not on gear, just training and focusing on nutrition. 
A little preface: I have read older posts by members, sassy, and some of sassy's responses (including stickies).  
   For the ladies out there using var, what kind of deficit (if any) are you creating via diet and training? Would any ladies care to share a brief experience about diet/training/var? (Currently subbed to belle's log).
   I understand that taking an anabolic obviously means growth, and does NOT mean "magic pill to make me loose fat and look toned" (I hate the word toned). 
   Lastly, I have also taken time to read many of the posts from a ways back about ppl's wives/friends taking var and gaining weight.  Not looking for any of those stories..because I'm thinking the unspoken words or underlying themes of those stories may be related to issues of nutrition and training! Thanks


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## sassy69 (Oct 7, 2014)

You need to start with what you are trying to accomplish. You can cut or build on any steroid based on what your diet, training, cardio & recovery are designed to support.

What are you trying to accomplish?


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## PLpb (Oct 8, 2014)

My goals are primarily to increase strength and muscle mass but also to lower body fat. 
I track my foods-About 5days per week the macro break down is 35%protein, 10% carbs, 55% fat. Eggs, meat, coconut oil, green veggies, wpi post workout, nuts are staples. I get anywhere from 1600-2000kcals depending on what my training looked like (higher cals for higher volume and expenditure days). Higher carb days once a week or twice a week depending on how I feel. I know that's a fairly general description. 
Current bf% is ~18. Weight 142. 
Lift 6days a week, occasionally only 5 days. Cardio is usually 5x week, 20-30 minutes either intervals or steady state. Recovery is stretching and foam rolling on days off.


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## PLpb (Oct 8, 2014)

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=175819
This thread helped me with some ideas. I hadn't searched this far back in the forum initially.


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## sassy69 (Oct 8, 2014)

You're more than likely going to gain weight simply because it promotes lean muscle mass. That's why we throw out the scale and don't get hung up on weight but rather look at body composition. And again, your results are going to be driven by your diet & training. If you are not getting the specific results you are looking for from your current program, then you need to step back and tweak it to promote those goals. The var will support that.


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## PLpb (Oct 9, 2014)

sassy69 said:


> You're more than likely going to gain weight simply because it promotes lean muscle mass. That's why we throw out the scale and don't get hung up on weight but rather look at body composition. And again, your results are going to be driven by your diet & training. If you are not getting the specific results you are looking for from your current program, then you need to step back and tweak it to promote those goals. The var will support that.



I was able to lose 3% bf with nutrition and training and looking to see what I need to tweak. I wouldn't mind putting on some more muscle.


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## PLpb (Oct 9, 2014)

I should have said, I want to put on more muscle mass, rather than I wouldn't mind. !


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## sassy69 (Oct 9, 2014)

PLpb said:


> I should have said, I want to put on more muscle mass, rather than I wouldn't mind. !



If you eat to build, the var will support that, and even more so, allow you to recover faster for generally bigger lifts, more aggressive training schedule. That said, don't go too crazy to see "what you can lift" as not all links in the chain are affected by the var - e.g. tendons, joints, ligaments may suffer if you lift more than they are able to support. Also AAS tends to mask pain that your body would otherwise be using to notify you of a body component that is having a hard time w/ your lifting schedule and if you aren't aware of it, you may actually injure yourself. When you come off, this can become even more apparent. Just something to keep in mind. 

To that point - the note about women who end up "thick" when they were expecting a cycle to fix everything - if you're not already lean, you may notice that you are getting "thicker" w/ the muscle growth. If you're doing a serious bulker - embrace it as getting hung up on "how you look" will really just compromise your results. You can do a cut later. Or if you want to minimize the excess that tends to come w/ a serious bulker, do a "clean bulk", which can be done something like a carb cycle but w/ more food - putting your higher carb days on days you're using them, higher fat / lower carbs on cardio or non-training days. The gains will be slower but cleaner, thus less to cut when you come to that phase.  If you want to cut more, then your gains will obviously be less than if you were doing a full bulk simply because you aren't really eating to grow, but you can also cut more.  Really depends on your goals. But you also need to be realistic about the goals you want and the stages you will need to go thru to get there. Spend some time commiting to a growth phase and after say 8-12 weeks, go to a lower maintenance diet to tighten up and maintain. Whatever. The point is don't try to do everythign at once because it will just compromise your results.


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## PLpb (Oct 9, 2014)

Thank you for this post! And I appreciate you talking about the recovery/pain/injury risk because this is something I had not yet read, and I tend to not stop until I'm really hurting. Being stubborn Is not my best attribute when training. 
I would not be considered lean at this point at 18%bf... So I see your point about not doing everything at once. I don't expect aas to be a crutch cause the reality is I could just end up thick if I pursue things mindlessly. For now, I'm  thinking maintenance calories and carb cycling. I'm a planner so I appreciate any direction. Taking the time to plan out what I want and how to get there is something I'm going to analyze, plan, implement and then evaluate as I go!


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## malfeasance (Oct 13, 2014)

PLpb said:


> I would not be considered lean at this point at 18%bf...


18% is a really good look for a woman, whereas it would be fat for a man.  What % are you seeking to be?


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## PLpb (Oct 13, 2014)

malfeasance said:


> 18% is a really good look for a woman, whereas it would be fat for a man.  What % are you seeking to be?



I'd like around 16. Got to 17.5 over a year ago and felt pretty good, but didn't have as much lean mass.


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## HFO3 (Oct 13, 2014)

sassy69 said:


> If you eat to build, the var will support that, and even more so, allow you to recover faster for generally bigger lifts, more aggressive training schedule. That said, don't go too crazy to see "what you can lift" as not all links in the chain are affected by the var - e.g. tendons, joints, ligaments may suffer if you lift more than they are able to support. Also AAS tends to mask pain that your body would otherwise be using to notify you of a body component that is having a hard time w/ your lifting schedule and if you aren't aware of it, you may actually injure yourself. When you come off, this can become even more apparent. Just something to keep in mind.
> 
> To that point - the note about women who end up "thick" when they were expecting a cycle to fix everything - if you're not already lean, you may notice that you are getting "thicker" w/ the muscle growth. If you're doing a serious bulker - embrace it as getting hung up on "how you look" will really just compromise your results. You can do a cut later. Or if you want to minimize the excess that tends to come w/ a serious bulker, do a "clean bulk", which can be done something like a carb cycle but w/ more food - putting your higher carb days on days you're using them, higher fat / lower carbs on cardio or non-training days. The gains will be slower but cleaner, thus less to cut when you come to that phase.  If you want to cut more, then your gains will obviously be less than if you were doing a full bulk simply because you aren't really eating to grow, but you can also cut more.  Really depends on your goals. But you also need to be realistic about the goals you want and the stages you will need to go thru to get there. Spend some time commiting to a growth phase and after say 8-12 weeks, go to a lower maintenance diet to tighten up and maintain. Whatever. The point is don't try to do everythign at once because it will just compromise your results.



Great post. It's refreshing to read wisdom rather than the latest...whatever...


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## PLpb (Oct 13, 2014)

HFO3 said:


> Great post. It's refreshing to read wisdom rather than the latest...whatever...



I'm happy she commented on this post. Kept it honest and informative.


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## FrankNegrete (Oct 13, 2014)

whats a good kick start for a woman looking to loose body fat, my wife is a former cheerleader eats well but cant seem to loose a little belly fat from pregnancy, is clen a good choice, thats what i was thinking, anyone


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## FrankNegrete (Oct 13, 2014)

FrankNegrete said:


> whats a good kick start for a woman looking to loose body fat, my wife is a former cheerleader eats well but cant seem to loose a little belly fat from pregnancy, is clen a good choice, thats what i was thinking, anyone


by the way the pregnancy was over a year ago so I dont want anyone to think that she would be using anything while breastfeeding, she has lost some body fat but has some stubborn areas


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## PLpb (Oct 13, 2014)

FrankNegrete said:


> whats a good kick start for a woman looking to loose body fat, my wife is a former cheerleader eats well but cant seem to loose a little belly fat from pregnancy, is clen a good choice, thats what i was thinking, anyone



I have no idea on clen. I've certainly read lots on it. If you do a general search in the forum on clen there is lots of info. The sticky in the female section is informative too!


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## SoCalSwole (Oct 16, 2014)

Was scanning the posts for more info on AAS for my wife and saw this thread and thought I would share the experience my wife had with it. She has been on it about 4 months off and on. 8 weeks on and then 8 off. I know they say you can run var without a break but we decided to go on the cautious side. We also track our macros and count everything. At first she was eating a similar diet higher in fat and lower in carbs. We noticed with this diet we were unable to make much progress with leaning out even with cardio 3 times a week and at a deficiency of overall calories up to 500 a day. She got stronger but her goal was the same as the OP. 

We switched to a high protein low fat and middle of the road carb diet like 50 protein, 20 fat, and 30 carbs. The difference was night and day. In both scenarios she stayed with a 7.5mg dose a day. Maybe just what her body likes but it worked much better. She was able to shed pounds of fat while gaining lean muscle. in the past 4 months she has gained about 10 pounds of muscle and lost 4 points on the BF and is now nearing 10% BF. at 5'7" and 115 pounds. When we started training her about 7 years ago she was only about 110 pounds and 18%BF. 

What I hypothesize happened in explaining the difference between the 2 diets and the reason for the dramatic difference is that. We were taking a cheat day once a week and the low carb high fat made her extremely insulin sensitive, so when we ate a little loosely on the cheat day the extra carbs triggered a huge insulin response that made her hold water. That coupled with the high fat put her body in a state where the day of and the day after the cheat day she was laying down fat and storing the extra glucose and water. Which would result in it taking her days to get back to the lower weight she previously had the week before. It also was not just weight. It was water and additional fat which was confirmed by BF testing using calipers and once we paid for the water emersion test at the day before cheat day and then again the second day after the cheat day. 

So now she runs a middle of the road carb intake, her workouts are much more productive, she is not bonking out towards the end of the week, she is losing fat and gaining muscle. With the carbs being higher all week the cheat day ends up being more like steak and wine. Other than pizza and pasta. We just don't crave the big carb meals anymore. As a result the insulin sensitivity is back to normal and no huge swings in weight the days after the cheat day. It's much easier on her body she would complain of her sides aching from bloat after a cheat day with the low carb diet. Now the cheat day is more for our own sanity and less of a stress to the body.

Women have unique challenges in this game. Different than men. the whole hormone cycle is another story that would compound the insulin response with added bloat with the low carb diet. Anyway just wanted to share our experience and what we found to work which is similar to what the OP is trying to achieve.


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## PLpb (Oct 16, 2014)

SoCalSwole said:


> Was scanning the posts for more info on AAS for my wife and saw this thread and thought I would share the experience my wife had with it. She has been on it about 4 months off and on. 8 weeks on and then 8 off. I know they say you can run var without a break but we decided to go on the cautious side. We also track our macros and count everything. At first she was eating a similar diet higher in fat and lower in carbs. We noticed with this diet we were unable to make much progress with leaning out even with cardio 3 times a week and at a deficiency of overall calories up to 500 a day. She got stronger but her goal was the same as the OP.
> 
> We switched to a high protein low fat and middle of the road carb diet like 50 protein, 20 fat, and 30 carbs. The difference was night and day. In both scenarios she stayed with a 7.5mg dose a day. Maybe just what her body likes but it worked much better. She was able to shed pounds of fat while gaining lean muscle. in the past 4 months she has gained about 10 pounds of muscle and lost 4 points on the BF and is now nearing 10% BF. at 5'7" and 115 pounds. When we started training her about 7 years ago she was only about 110 pounds and 18%BF.
> 
> ...



SoCal, thank you very much for the detailed post about your wife's experience. It's interesting to hear she did better with the middle of the road carbs. I'm constantly questioning my macros as I track everything. I do cardio 4-6 times a week and feel like my progress has been slow. That obviously has to do with overall calorie intake on my part but I still feel like it's slow given a deficit. It's good to hear she was able to build muscle AND lose fat. I'm trying to slowly tweak my diet to accomplish this at a faster rate! 
Also interesting info on the insulin sensitivity and water retention.. I've experienced similar. 
Again thanks for sharing- I was hoping tk hear some stories like this.


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## SoCalSwole (Oct 17, 2014)

PLpb said:


> SoCal, thank you very much for the detailed post about your wife's experience. It's interesting to hear she did better with the middle of the road carbs. I'm constantly questioning my macros as I track everything. I do cardio 4-6 times a week and feel like my progress has been slow. That obviously has to do with overall calorie intake on my part but I still feel like it's slow given a deficit. It's good to hear she was able to build muscle AND lose fat. I'm trying to slowly tweak my diet to accomplish this at a faster rate!
> Also interesting info on the insulin sensitivity and water retention.. I've experienced similar.
> Again thanks for sharing- I was hoping tk hear some stories like this.



Your welcome, That's why were all here to learn from each other. You might try the diet change with the lower fat and raise the carbs. It might work for you as well. Sounds like You and my wife have similar experiences with the higher fat diet. If you try it give it a good 3 weeks. It will take some time for you to stop being insulin sensitive. Expect the first week to gain a few due to this same response. But use it to your advantage you should have some amazing workouts with the extra glucose your body has been missing. As long as the fat stays low you won't gain fat. You will actually find your true body weight because you are no longer depleted and the muscles are now full with all the glycogen they need for maximum out put.

There are also several vitamin supplements that help with insulin sensitivity that work quite well. Vitamin shoppe has one called Sugar aid that we use and it helps when we eat a carb meal we don't get the insulin sleepy's that I am sure you know about.

One last thing, we now do almost zero cardio and still have better results. If you manage the fat intake and overall calories I am a firm believer you don't need cardio. I've done it both ways. This way is much easier and less time consuming for me at least. There are those that love to sweat doing hours of cardio. I'd rather sweat lifting.

Good luck


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## PLpb (Oct 17, 2014)

SoCalSwole said:


> Your welcome, That's why were all here to learn from each other. You might try the diet change with the lower fat and raise the carbs. It might work for you as well. Sounds like You and my wife have similar experiences with the higher fat diet. If you try it give it a good 3 weeks. It will take some time for you to stop being insulin sensitive. Expect the first week to gain a few due to this same response. But use it to your advantage you should have some amazing workouts with the extra glucose your body has been missing. As long as the fat stays low you won't gain fat. You will actually find your true body weight because you are no longer depleted and the muscles are now full with all the glycogen they need for maximum out put.
> 
> There are also several vitamin supplements that help with insulin sensitivity that work quite well. Vitamin shoppe has one called Sugar aid that we use and it helps when we eat a carb meal we don't get the insulin sleepy's that I am sure you know about.
> 
> ...




Good to hear! Patience and consistency for all diet changes is important for sure. I just adjusted my macros last night in MFP app and for 20% carbs =85g. Lowered fat to 35%. I'll see how my body responds.
Can I ask, since I'm still a little leery of carbs, what are the carb sources your wife is consuming? I know everybody is different, but mine have been from veggies, nuts, almond milk while doing "low carb". I plan to keep those, but I simply can't imagine eating for example, Ezekiel bread or plain yogurt as I used to! 
There is a vitamin shoppe near me  so thanks! I have always done cardio and have this weird guilty feeling if I don't. Fearing carbs and feeling guilty for not doing cardio- lol oh my I sound a little nuts. I'm just being honest. Yet I hear so many people who have excellent results with minimal to none!


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## SoCalSwole (Oct 17, 2014)

PLpb said:


> Good to hear! Patience and consistency for all diet changes is important for sure. I just adjusted my macros last night in MFP app and for 20% carbs =85g. Lowered fat to 35%. I'll see how my body responds.
> Can I ask, since I'm still a little leery of carbs, what are the carb sources your wife is consuming? I know everybody is different, but mine have been from veggies, nuts, almond milk while doing "low carb". I plan to keep those, but I simply can't imagine eating for example, Ezekiel bread or plain yogurt as I used to!
> There is a vitamin shoppe near me  so thanks! I have always done cardio and have this weird guilty feeling if I don't. Fearing carbs and feeling guilty for not doing cardio- lol oh my I sound a little nuts. I'm just being honest. Yet I hear so many people who have excellent results with minimal to none!



yea I know its totally foreign right? Think of this way now you have time to further split your lifting work outs to a single body part per day. Our sources of carbs come from primarily White yams, purple yams, brown rice, Ezekiel bread, Some fruit we don't really count the green veggies. We try to stay away from wheat. We also use a recarb supplement called Karbolean which packs a 50 gram punch to whatever you add it too and its slower digesting so it won't fall off too fast. great for long work outs.

We all have been brain washed for years that carbs are bad. Carbs are not bad. It's the ratio to fat and carbs that's important. Look at a pro physique competitors diet the carbs are almost 2-1 carbs to protein and they are lean. As long as you don't go past your caloric allowance and stay within your limits you set there will be no issue. 

It is however much more challenging once you start moving the fats down to the 20% range. It really limits the proteins you can eat. Also nut butters are now off limits. You get used to it though. The results you can't argue with. It's literally night and day. 

Your not going to notice a big difference until you tip the ratio to more carbs than fat. I am skeptical you will see any improvement adjusting the fat to 35% and 20% carbs. But I could be wrong. Carbs are what fuel your muscles, in the absence of fat they will not be converted and stored as fat. The reason the low carb diet works for weight reduction is because the body is forced to convert fat and protein to glucose which is extremely stressful on the body and toxic to your blood and organs. If one ate high carbs and high fat then the body would use the carbs as energy because its easier to convert to glucose and store the fat just in case for a later date. If you ensure your body it will never go glucose deprived it will give up its fat stores so it can carry less un needed weight. 

I know its the opposite of everything rammed down our throats but do the research and you find all the pros doing the same. I know were not pros but why not reap the same benefits from the knowledge they have and have already proven to work. Low carb diets are for fat people who have no discipline and don't train for muscle building. To build muscle you need carbs and protein. Just cut the fat out.


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## PLpb (Oct 17, 2014)

Ok that is making sense to me. I have some experimenting to do! !! Again thank you!


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## SoCalSwole (Oct 17, 2014)

Anytime sorry to get Frank in my responses but being a former Fat person constantly struggling on a low carb diet, I feel I can talk about said fat persons as such


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## PLpb (Oct 17, 2014)

I'd rather hear frank honesty than sugar coated shit. I have made some decent progress low carb but I want to progress more rapidly... Who doesn't lol. Do you, (curious about your wife too) train for hypertrophy/aesthetics, or strength, or all three?


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## UberJedi (Oct 17, 2014)

Don't be afraid to hire someone for 12 weeks to teach you about dieting proper. Jerry Ward is good guy to look at. He works with a lot of women both competiting and non. His significant other is a figure competitor. bios3training


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## SoCalSwole (Oct 17, 2014)

We are both training for hypertrophy and aesthetics. I am huge fan of the classic body building physiques. We don't really care how much we can lift. Our job as body builders is to contract and engorge the muscle with blood. The weight is just the tool to do that with. 

But she can do pull ups and and dips with added weight (body weight plus more using a belt) I used to care how much I could bench.  But now I find ways to make the muscle work harder. We are both NPC member's who compete. She is in the Physique category, I am a light heavy weight body builder 197 pounds on stage right now 210, and we also do mixed pairs.


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## PLpb (Oct 17, 2014)

Very cool! I've seen a few mixed pairs routines and I think it looks fun! Doing a prep simultaneously and then getting to display that dedication together- how exciting!


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## SoCalSwole (Oct 17, 2014)

PLpb said:


> Very cool! I've seen a few mixed pairs routines and I think it looks fun! Doing a prep simultaneously and then getting to display that dedication together- how exciting!



Its just easier. Team work helps when will power gets weak. Plus it makes it easier with cravings. If im freaking out cuz I need some sugar and she eats a cookie because shes not in prep....well its not pretty. lol


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## SoCalSwole (Oct 17, 2014)

Any plans on competing PLpb?


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## PLpb (Oct 17, 2014)

SoCalSwole said:


> Its just easier. Team work helps when will power gets weak. Plus it makes it easier with cravings. If im freaking out cuz I need some sugar and she eats a cookie because shes not in prep....well its not pretty. lol



Lol happens to me quite often. I'm like get away with that food! 
No plans for competition.. It's rather intimidating to me!!


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## sassy69 (Oct 18, 2014)

SoCalSwole said:


> Was scanning the posts for more info on AAS for my wife and saw this thread and thought I would share the experience my wife had with it. She has been on it about 4 months off and on. 8 weeks on and then 8 off. I know they say you can run var without a break but we decided to go on the cautious side. We also track our macros and count everything. At first she was eating a similar diet higher in fat and lower in carbs. We noticed with this diet we were unable to make much progress with leaning out even with cardio 3 times a week and at a deficiency of overall calories up to 500 a day. She got stronger but her goal was the same as the OP.
> 
> We switched to a high protein low fat and middle of the road carb diet like 50 protein, 20 fat, and 30 carbs. The difference was night and day. In both scenarios she stayed with a 7.5mg dose a day. Maybe just what her body likes but it worked much better. She was able to shed pounds of fat while gaining lean muscle. in the past 4 months she has gained about 10 pounds of muscle and lost 4 points on the BF and is now nearing 10% BF. at 5'7" and 115 pounds. When we started training her about 7 years ago she was only about 110 pounds and 18%BF.
> 
> ...



I was curious  - w/ those stats and not knowing anything else about your wife, I would guess she's an ecto / hardgainer. Someone like that I would probably say, is wasting time w/ a low carb diet. You didn't explicitly call say it was a keto diet or not- but esp women tend to go w/ these 'low carb' diets that aren't enough to go into ketosis, but are low enough to pretty much starve the body of any sufficient energy source - and they just end up stalling out and feeling like shit. Unless you're interested in doing a serious growth period / bulker diet, I'm a huge fan of carb cycling - basically put the high carb days on the days you're going to use them w/ heavy lifting. I've done most of my contest preps on ~1750 cals with a carb cycle. I've done a couple overly aggressive keto-based preps that ultimately just burned me out, but I guess I'll just call it an experiment. I think there are times when a keto diet has it's purpose, but if you don't do it right, it's not going to get you what you want. Generally sufficient carbs allow your body to set up a metabolic burn rate that is mindboggling. It is truly amazing when you get the perfect fuel & burn balance!

I'm NOT an ecto - my operating weight back when I started competing was 5'7" and around 150 lb. I dieted down to ~7% / 133 lb, but still felt like a bag of bones. My more recent competition weights have been more like 147 because I've added more muscle after 10 yrs of competing. Goign forward, particularly w/ the variety of wear & tear issues that I have, I would like to get back to competing around 140 lb. Dump some muscle and tighten up the rest 


FWIW I want to keep reiterating the value of spending the bulk of your time scrutinizing your diet and  your consistency of both diet & training before going to look for drug recommendations. The drugs are still only going to be as good as your foundation. For the previous question about trying to get rid of the post-baby belly fat, I would really take a look at the diet before getting caught up in clen. That stuff can really fuck up your level of stress & quality of sleep even if you are not really sensitive to it, and it will NOT make the difference if you haven't optimized your diet. I've seen it add an edge for someone in competition prep - but that prep was already ultra-optimized and consistent. If it wasn't, IMO the clen would not product better results and for the stress it adds I truly believe that it can negate any fat burning results by increasing cortisol due to stress & shit quality sleep if you are not really on top of the cycle.


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## SoCalSwole (Oct 19, 2014)

sassy69 said:


> I was curious  - w/ those stats and not knowing anything else about your wife, I would guess she's an ecto / hardgainer. Someone like that I would probably say, is wasting time w/ a low carb diet. You didn't explicitly call say it was a keto diet or not- but esp women tend to go w/ these 'low carb' diets that aren't enough to go into ketosis, but are low enough to pretty much starve the body of any sufficient energy source - and they just end up stalling out and feeling like shit. Unless you're interested in doing a serious growth period / bulker diet, I'm a huge fan of carb cycling - basically put the high carb days on the days you're going to use them w/ heavy lifting. I've done most of my contest preps on ~1750 cals with a carb cycle. I've done a couple overly aggressive keto-based preps that ultimately just burned me out, but I guess I'll just call it an experiment. I think there are times when a keto diet has it's purpose, but if you don't do it right, it's not going to get you what you want. Generally sufficient carbs allow your body to set up a metabolic burn rate that is mindboggling. It is truly amazing when you get the perfect fuel & burn balance!
> 
> I'm NOT an ecto - my operating weight back when I started competing was 5'7" and around 150 lb. I dieted down to ~7% / 133 lb, but still felt like a bag of bones. My more recent competition weights have been more like 147 because I've added more muscle after 10 yrs of competing. Goign forward, particularly w/ the variety of wear & tear issues that I have, I would like to get back to competing around 140 lb. Dump some muscle and tighten up the rest
> 
> ...



Yes she is definitely an Ectomorph. But she had a lot of stubborn fat is weird places like the side of the legs near the knee and in the lower leg. So we tried the keto diets which I had used in the past with great success. I used to be extremely overweight like 240 (endomorph for sure) with no muscle tone. I was pretty much on a low carb diet for 5 years straight to lean out. I didn't know back then what I know now so as you could imagine my gains were little to non for a few years. We tried the carb cycling with her and it just didn't work it made her way too insulin sensitive. We would basically go low to no carb until we skated the edge of ketosis using the keto stix and then we did 2 days of fairly high carbs. I did very well on this diet. The anabolic response I got after the carb days was amazing I would gain a good 5-7 pounds on the carb days. and then lose it all plus another pound by the next carb days. So it was working well on me and I was gaining. But she was just staying the same. She was having lousy workouts on the days with no carbs and then the days with carbs she was so uncomfortable and bloated she didn't want to train. Her weight would go up and down like mine except she would never drop the additional pound like I was.

Eventually I got lean enough (around 10%) that I too was getting the same results as her. So we switched over to a more balanced diet with low fat and like I mentioned before the difference was night and day. Which is why I believe that the low carb protocols work better for people who have more fat to lose. Once you get down in the low teens I have found they are much less effective. 

I also would like to reiterate your view on AAS and other stimulants. I personally have been training for about 11 years and only the past 3 have I been experimenting with AAS. My wife has been training for about 7 years and only this past year has she decided to try a low dose of Var. I truly believe that it is important to go as far as you can naturally first and figure out how to diet and train properly before even thinking about trying other things. I cringe daily at the threads by younger men just started training this year and are asking how to take tren and DNP and all kinds of stuff that even the veteran user with years of experience would treat with utmost respect.


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## PLpb (Oct 19, 2014)

Interesting to hear the different way she experimented with carbs and how she felt. I feel like it's easy for me to gain fat as well as muscle.. Interesting "carbs can set a metabolic burn rate" I think this is very true.


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## SoCalSwole (Oct 19, 2014)

PLpb said:


> Interesting to hear the different way she experimented with carbs and how she felt. I feel like it's easy for me to gain fat as well as muscle.. Interesting "carbs can set a metabolic burn rate" I think this is very true.



Yes indeed. It is also possible back then we were missing part of the equation as well. Sassy has been around the block a few times so if she is saying the low carb diet has its purpose then I'll take that as gospel. But it is really true that the low fat balanced diet is harder to dial in and get right. You really have to count everything and play with it until you get the sweet spot. The keto diets are easier to figure out, don't eat carbs until this happens, then eat some carbs until this happens and repeat. The other way is for more disciplined people who are dialed in to the point of obsession. You have to really have will power because its really easy to make the wrong choices and even talk yourself into it fitting in when it doesn't. Also why it's important to have a partner.

One last thing for men the macro diets are easier to. Well I should say for people who have a higher BMR. I am allowed over 2800 cals for maintenance. My wife is half my weight and only is allowed 1500 so a slip up for her is enough to ruin the entire day. I on the other hand can eeek out a good day even if a poor choice is made earlier in the day.


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## sassy69 (Oct 20, 2014)

SoCalSwole said:


> Yes she is definitely an Ectomorph. But she had a lot of stubborn fat is weird places like the side of the legs near the knee and in the lower leg. So we tried the keto diets which I had used in the past with great success. I used to be extremely overweight like 240 (endomorph for sure) with no muscle tone. I was pretty much on a low carb diet for 5 years straight to lean out. I didn't know back then what I know now so as you could imagine my gains were little to non for a few years. We tried the carb cycling with her and it just didn't work it made her way too insulin sensitive. We would basically go low to no carb until we skated the edge of ketosis using the keto stix and then we did 2 days of fairly high carbs. I did very well on this diet. The anabolic response I got after the carb days was amazing I would gain a good 5-7 pounds on the carb days. and then lose it all plus another pound by the next carb days. So it was working well on me and I was gaining. But she was just staying the same. She was having lousy workouts on the days with no carbs and then the days with carbs she was so uncomfortable and bloated she didn't want to train. Her weight would go up and down like mine except she would never drop the additional pound like I was.
> 
> Eventually I got lean enough (around 10%) that I too was getting the same results as her. So we switched over to a more balanced diet with low fat and like I mentioned before the difference was night and day. Which is why I believe that the low carb protocols work better for people who have more fat to lose. Once you get down in the low teens I have found they are much less effective.
> 
> I also would like to reiterate your view on AAS and other stimulants. I personally have been training for about 11 years and only the past 3 have I been experimenting with AAS. My wife has been training for about 7 years and only this past year has she decided to try a low dose of Var.* I truly believe that it is important to go as far as you can naturally first and figure out how to diet and train properly before even thinking about trying other things. I cringe daily at the threads by younger men just started training this year and are asking how to take tren and DNP and all kinds of stuff that even the veteran user with years of experience would treat with utmost respect.*



This is why I always make that comment in a thread, and not necessarily directed at the thread starter, but those reading it. Particularly women who are around guys who cycle start  getting that recommendation when they dont' like their current body composition - the difference however, is that the guy usually has several years of gymrat lifestyle and discipline as a starting foundation - and most women don't. They just want the quicky fix. This approach both sets the wrong expectation about what the drugs do, and constantly illustrate the fact that so many people are so ready to start popping some underground chemical (holy fuck .. dnp) before they would suck it up for 3 weeks and stick to a diet and get out & move around a little bit.

Your post is a perfect example of actually spending the time to better understand how YOUR body works w/ different diets. I LOVED keto dieting - it was so easy for me as I have essentially lost my flavor for food and meal time is more simply "fueling time" - shovel it down and move on. Even worse, I go in phases of being able to stomach chicken or not - I'm completely lost when I'm in "I can't stand to even look at it" state. That's where I am right now. I would pay cash money to not have to eat right now.  Sucks! But I also know over time, the phases I go thru, what works, what doesn't. But I also have learned that there are no constants when it comes to your body. While you are doing these experiments to better understand how your body works, your body is still changing in how it responds to the diets, and time is passing --> you are aging all the time. The last 4 years has been dramatic for me going thru peri- menopause and trying to figure out wtf is going on. It still all goes back to your consistency and patience with the protocol, and constant small tweaks w/ what you are doing. If that isn't already part of your view of "fitness" , then throwing in steroids and various other controlled substances isn't going to do the heavy lifting. Educate yourself!


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## SoCalSwole (Oct 20, 2014)

sassy69 said:


> This is why I always make that comment in a thread, and not necessarily directed at the thread starter, but those reading it. Particularly women who are around guys who cycle start  getting that recommendation when they dont' like their current body composition - the difference however, is that the guy usually has several years of gymrat lifestyle and discipline as a starting foundation - and most women don't. They just want the quicky fix. This approach both sets the wrong expectation about what the drugs do, and constantly illustrate the fact that so many people are so ready to start popping some underground chemical (holy fuck .. dnp) before they would suck it up for 3 weeks and stick to a diet and get out & move around a little bit.
> 
> 
> 
> Your post is a perfect example of actually spending the time to better understand how YOUR body works w/ different diets. I LOVED keto dieting - it was so easy for me as I have essentially lost my flavor for food and meal time is more simply "fueling time" - shovel it down and move on. Even worse, I go in phases of being able to stomach chicken or not - I'm completely lost when I'm in "I can't stand to even look at it" state. That's where I am right now. I would pay cash money to not have to eat right now.  Sucks! But I also know over time, the phases I go thru, what works, what doesn't. But I also have learned that there are no constants when it comes to your body. While you are doing these experiments to better understand how your body works, your body is still changing in how it responds to the diets, and time is passing --> you are aging all the time. The last 4 years has been dramatic for me going thru peri- menopause and trying to figure out wtf is going on. It still all goes back to your consistency and patience with the protocol, and constant small tweaks w/ what you are doing. If that isn't already part of your view of "fitness" , then throwing in steroids and various other controlled substances isn't going to do the heavy lifting. Educate yourself!




Amen sister!!


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## PLpb (Oct 21, 2014)

More wise words from Sassy


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## JerseyDevil (Oct 22, 2014)

This thread is packed full of useful information.  Good job Sassy and good questions being asked by the posters.


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## PLpb (Oct 22, 2014)

JerseyDevil said:


> This thread is packed full of useful information.  Good job Sassy and good questions being asked by the posters.



I have found the info helpful. I'm hoping to keep the thread alive for a while Til I complete my first cycle so I can provide my experience.


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## Riles (Nov 20, 2014)

bump for updates


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## PLpb (Nov 21, 2014)

So, I had consistent strength gains, noticeable muscle gain, and minimal sides. I ate around maintenance (some days above, some below). So far I still maintained my strength and muscle!


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