# Use of Clomid & HCG during cycle and tapering.



## Grozny (Sep 14, 2010)

Use of Clomid & HCG during cycle and tapering. 

Even though there are masses articles which give a sufficient answer on  these problems, on the Internet forums always exist diagrams and  opinions, that brings doubt in the user, below the original diagram that  in innumerable derivatives, exists on the net: 

Steroid Time afterlast administration Length of Clomid Cycle 

Anadrol50/Anapolan50: 8 - 12 hours 3 weeks 
Deca durabolan: 3 weeks 4 weeks 
Dianabol: 4 - 8 hours 3 weeks 
Equipoise: 17 - 21 days 3 weeks 
Finajet/Trenbolone: 3 days 3 weeks 
Primabolan depot: 10 - 14 days 2 weeks 
Sustanon: 3 weeks 3 weeks 
Testosterone Cypionate: 2 weeks 3 weeks 
Testosterone Enanthate/Testoviron: 2 weeks 3 weeks 
Testosterone Propionate: 3 days 3 weeks 
Testosterone Suspension: 4 - 8 hours 2-3 weeks 

Winstrol 8 - 12 hours 2-3 weeks 

This diagram assumes the fact that one could not use Clomid in fact  during the cycle, and that use, during the time that the longest working  steroid that you have used is still operative, is purely waste. Now,  you know that established experts in this area do not always agree with  each other, by long ,and that science reverses sometimes long adopted  securities entirely. You do not have to listen therefore to those  self-proclaimed gurus. However, I have brought together as many data as  possible and empirical data from own and other people's experiences in  the hope that you have a practical use for it. It seemed like a good  idea to René of bringing together these practical experiences including  dosings, you can expect therefore also more of us in this area such as  which anabolics, in which proportions fit well to go together.  Well......... 

Anti-oestrogens: 

There are two groups in different manners operative anti-oestrogens,  first there are the competitive aromatase inhibitors, such as Cytadren,  Arimidex and probable also Proviron, these bind at the same place on the  enzyme aromatase such as testosterone does. By doing this, they prevent  that testosterone binds itself and then converts to oestrogen. Secondly  there is the group: oestrogen receptor antagonists, that with their  molecules strongly bind to the receptor, but do not activate this  receptor and make him this way inaccessible for the appropriate hormone,  Clomid (clomiphene) and Nolvadex  (tamoxifen) belong to this group. These two look a lot a like and belong  to the triphenylethylenes, and therefore are no steroids. Both equals  each other strongly in their functioning , and have a dual functioning,  in some tissues they behave themselves as oestrogen???s and in other  tissues as an antagonist. Both work as oestrogen???s in the bone tissue,  and that is only good because differently this would lead to  osteoporosis , BUT only Tamoxifen work pronounced strong in the liver as  an oestrogen, and this way the growth factors slow down, particularly  IGF-1. Use of tamoxifen shows strongly decreased IGF-1 levels. What does  this mean in real life? Like we know growth hormone (somatropine)  thanks a large part, as not all, his functioning to IGF-1. The  stimulating impact that assumes the oral component, concretely the  Dianabol or Oxymetholone, care for an improved cycle. This due the  stimulation of the liver, the more IGF-1 or other (still) unknown growth  factors are released. This together with the receptor related muscle  growth of the injected resources, have a synergistisc impact. If you use  ALSO Nolvadex therefore during that  cycle, you annul this synergy. Clomid does not have these disadvantages  and therefore strongly enjoy the preference, especially if you???re on a  very expensive GH cycle. 

Therefore, these two in the Netherlands and Belgium in abundance  available anti-oestrogenen Clomid strongly enjoy the preference, is Nolvadex  therefore worthless? No off course not, it is really an anti-oestrogen  in b.a the nipples, and many keep a packing at hand in case they think a  gyno starts to develop. Although in my opinion Clomid in this regard is  also very well suitable, in such an emergency case, on the first day  you can take swallow 300mg Clomid, that is six 50 mg/tablets , that you  use in two portions, the following days you take just 50 mg/day. By its  unusually long half life of 5 days Clomid at long-term use, builds up an  operative amount of 300 mg. As a fist rule it is adopted that after the  cycle, the athlete uses for 10 days - 100 mg Clomid is used, followed  by 10 days - 50 mg. Is this the law? No off course not, it works as said  as an antagonist for the oestrogenic receptor. Raised progestogene - or  oestrogen levels (yes, really) ensure just like raised testosterone  levels a reduced endogenous testosterone production. Clomid reduces  therefore the inhibition as a result of the raised oestradiol levels.  With that the LH levels (this hormone "reflects command" to the testes  to produce testosterone) return to their normal altitude, that on its  turn ensures that the testosterone level standardise themselves. Some  users mean that a twenty days use of Clomid is sufficiently, others  think that they need a longer period, especially as a result of longer  and heavier cycles. Use in males has followed scientifically until a  full year without detrimental side effects. There exists a broadly  spread misconception that Clomid only can be used for some weeks, that???s  indeed printed in the leaflet, but these have been intended for women  with a fertility jamming. And women must use it no longer then two use  weeks because of their ovulation. 

Clomid during the complete cycle? Yes, why not? It costs almost nothing  and has much more qualities than only anti-oestrogen square, it works  also to improve blood values (LDL against HDL), and these become  nevertheless already more badly with AAS-use, it accelerates  convalescence after the cycle, and improved mood (female hormone related  depressions). Clomid cannot prevent oppression of  Pituary-Hypothalamus-Testes-Axis even if it is used during the whole  cycle, there also exist the androgenic inhibition by means of the  androgenic receptor, that has nothing to do with the estrogenic  receptor. Androgenic inhibition is inevitably and cannot be prevented by  Clomid as oestrogenic receptor antagonist, but it diminishes, without  questioning, the total degree of oppression (inhibition). 

What about the former group of Arimidex, Cytadren and Proviron?? 

Competitive aromatase remmers (CAR) compete with the normal substrate  (b.a injected and body-own testosterone) for the bound to the aromatase  enzyme (competition). At equal bindings affinity (Arimidex here is an  exception, but about this more later) the CAR always must be raised, as  the quantities of used steroids are being raised. If there are more  testosterone molecules available than CAR molecules, the enzyme will be  mainly bound by testosterone and will mainly produce oestrogen. Cytadren  should not be higher dosed than 250 mg per day and this is sufficient  to compensate 1000 mg testosteron. In the ideal situation you must add  50 mg Clomid for earlier-mentioned reasons and also Proviron. Proviron  are possible you simply as from day 1 use and intensify thedosering to  need to 4 tablets per day. If you use more than 4 tablets per day there  chance on prapiarisme (apermanent erectie) exists that only by a doctor  with an injection in the shaft of the penis can be remedied. Proviron  raised moreover the quantity ejaculaat and simplify therefore also it  "finish" something what becomes by the androgenen swollen prostate at  some more difficult. Proviron also work as anti-oestrogen in a the same  manner asArimidex. Moreover Proviron bind themselves to the SHGB (sex  hormone binding globuline) and ensures this way that there can be more  "free" testosteron present in the blood to preferm its beneficial effect  on the muscle increase. Proviron seems to raise the libido also  directly. A real magic cycle therefore (read more concerning the  separatere sources under" profiles "on this site). Arimidex has an  exceptionally strong bindings affinity, therefore you need only an  extreme small amount, even 1 mg is for 1 gramme testosteron largely  sufficient. A minus is that Arimidex is correspondingly expensive,  exception on this is Arimidex of IP China, wich we tested as  sufficiently dosed. 

Cytadren then but, I think that only few of you have had this product  actually in their hands. It is especially much used in the US, for this  reason here just as short profile, because it is i.m.o. also in fact a  bad article for our purposes. Cytadren has also a dual function. It???s  used in high amounts (1000 mg/dag) as a medecine at patients with the  Cushing's syndrome, where these patients produce abnormally high  quantities of cortisol. Cytadren works by inhibiting the enzyme  desmolase, that is necessary for all steroïd productions in the body,  and inhibits the production of cortisol. At 250 mg per day cytadren sit,  what concerns the aromatase inhibition on its highest level, if you  raise hereafter the amount of Cytadren it will no longer influence the  enzyme aromatase, but the inhibition of desmolase enzyme increases all  the more. That is nevertheless well, because everyone knows that  cortisol works catabolic (breaks down muscle). It has been proven  however that abnormally high cortisol levels work catabolic, but that  through Cytadren use abnormally reduced cortisol levels also does not  result in increased muscle growth. However, developes side effects such  as painful joints and lethargy. Enough concerning this product, if  someone nevertheless should want to know more concerning this product,  he can contact me. 


Winstrol. 

A large part of the steroïds which you use becomes in the body unusable  because they bind themselves to the SHGB. If we would be therefore able  to raise the quantity of "free" testosterone by reducing the SHGB level,  this would be a splendid solution. A scientific research has shown that  orally taken Winstrol one of these bindings proteins namely globuline  reduces with 50% . If you therefore uses tablets Winstrol during your  cycle, you make it more effective. Winstrol also works as androgenic  component also like an anti-oestrogen on b.a your libido problem.  Moreover works the combination oral Winstrol/Proviron to an  unprecedented muscle compactness and muscle hardness. While we are  talking concerning compounds that have positive effects on the "free  testosterone", I want nevertheless concerning this effect point to  Testosterone Undecanoate, this everywhere vilified oral testosterone has  shown in scientific researches, that it can reduce the SHBG with at  least 50% and at long-term use still much further. More about this  later, because I go astray. 

How and when to use HCG. 

HCG (Human Chorionoc Gonadotrophine) is no steroid, but a peptide  hormone. It is produced in the placenta (mother wafer) at pregnant  women. It is won from the urine of pregnant women. Many miss-informed  bodybuilders use it together with Clomid to start endogenous production  again after a cycle, this however works counter-productive. The HCG  works on the LH receptor just like LH itself, therefore like an agonist.  As a consequence, the endogenous testosteronproduction as well as the  oestrogen production increases, with as a result aromatising. These  facts together provide a further inhibition of HPT-Axis by means of the  feedback. One injects normally, as a result from this mis-information 1  ampoule every three days (2500 iu or 5000 iu) after the cycle, this  provides thanks to aromatisation of the high endogenous  testosteronproduction, for an abnormal high oestrogen level, that can be  responsible for many cases of gynaecomastia. Completely wrong  therefore!!! 
As from week 5, you can inject every three/four days + 500/1500 iu. If  you have to prepare the whole amount of 2500 iu or 5000 iu, you can keep  the rest in an empty vial of b.a. Norma Hellas in the fridge. For about  two weeks you can use HCG, subcutaneously (under the skin) with an  insulin needle, to reduce atrophy (shrink) of the testes (seed balls),  if this side effect occurs. Because strongly shrunk testes are not able  to produce sufficient endogenous testosterone after the cycle. It is  however for those who prefer IM also complete well possible to inject  HCG IM (intramuscularly, in the muscle).


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## blazeftp (Sep 14, 2010)

Thats this was a good read and cleared up a few things.


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## pyes (Sep 14, 2010)

Someone is trying to get their rep power up


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## XYZ (Sep 14, 2010)

99.9% of guys don't dose their HCG like this.

It's also good for 30 days reconstituted if refrigerated


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## Grozny (Sep 15, 2010)

pyes said:


> Someone is trying to get their rep power up



red,green rep power who cares about this )


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## cbohning (Sep 15, 2010)

Grozny said:


> Use of Clomid & HCG
> 
> As from week 5, you can inject every three/four days + 500/1500 iu. If  you have to prepare the whole amount of 2500 iu or 5000 iu, you can keep  the rest in an empty vial of b.a. Norma Hellas in the fridge. For about  two weeks you can use HCG, subcutaneously (under the skin) with an  insulin needle, to reduce atrophy (shrink) of the testes (seed balls),  if this side effect occurs. Because strongly shrunk testes are not able  to produce sufficient endogenous testosterone after the cycle. It is  however for those who prefer IM also complete well possible to inject  HCG IM (intramuscularly, in the muscle).



-confused, is this article saying "as of week 5" meaning the 5th week after your 4wk PCT or the 5th week into your cyle??

-and also you can take 500-1500iu every 3-4 days for ONLY? 2wks???


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## unclem (Sep 15, 2010)

CT said:


> 99.9% of guys don't dose their HCG like this.
> 
> It's also good for 30 days reconstituted if refrigerated


 
 ahhh fuck CT, i was told after mix it it was gtg for 60- 90 days, which is it brother. please get back. ill pm u.


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## NewGuyToronto (Sep 7, 2011)

*Very Confused about PCT - Please Help!!*

Hi - I just joined the forum and its my first time on any forum whatsoever - so I m just learning the rules - I am 34 years old - have used gear lightly during ages 21-26 on and off - then didnt do anything until this summer - I m 5'7 - 150 lbs - I have abs - and I lost 24 pounds since I started gear in April - I stared with 250 mg/sus - per 5 days and then bumped it to 250 mgs/sus for 7 days - sometimes I used 100 mg/deca - every 5-7 days instead of the sus - never did both together - basically I was doing 1 shot of either one every 5-7 days for 4 weeks and then I started doing 1 shot every 9 days - for 5 weeks - and then I stopped the deca and sus - and I did 1 shot of primo depot per week for 3 weeks - so 3 shots in total - and throughout the cycle - I used 10 mg of anavar - 4-5 times per week - the last sus/deca shot I did was over 1 month ago and the last primo has been about 12 days - I understand that the cycle is relatively light - but it worked great for what I wanted - now I am confused about using HCG - I have that and clomid - but most places I read - say that HCG is for a heavier cycle and should be used throughout the cycle as opposed to PCT - and the one I have is 10,000 IUs - so I dont know if I should use it or save it - and just use the clomid for 2 weeks - please help if u can


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## pieguy (Sep 7, 2011)

NewGuyToronto said:


> Hi - I just joined the forum and its my first time on any forum whatsoever - so I m just learning the rules - I am 34 years old - have used gear lightly during ages 21-26 on and off - then didnt do anything until this summer - I m 5'7 - 150 lbs - I have abs - and I lost 24 pounds since I started gear in April - I stared with 250 mg/sus - per 5 days and then bumped it to 250 mgs/sus for 7 days - sometimes I used 100 mg/deca - every 5-7 days instead of the sus - never did both together - basically I was doing 1 shot of either one every 5-7 days for 4 weeks and then I started doing 1 shot every 9 days - for 5 weeks - and then I stopped the deca and sus - and I did 1 shot of primo depot per week for 3 weeks - so 3 shots in total - and throughout the cycle - I used 10 mg of anavar - 4-5 times per week - the last sus/deca shot I did was over 1 month ago and the last primo has been about 12 days - I understand that the cycle is relatively light - but it worked great for what I wanted - now I am confused about using HCG - I have that and clomid - but most places I read - say that HCG is for a heavier cycle and should be used throughout the cycle as opposed to PCT - and the one I have is 10,000 IUs - so I dont know if I should use it or save it - and just use the clomid for 2 weeks - please help if u can



I'm sorry, but WTF!? Can you type normally for one and lay out your actual protocol in a bulleted manner cause the shit you wrote makes me want to stab my eyes out. Your last cycle was a huge fuck up and I don't understand why you'd even bother cycling if you used such stupid dosing protocol and dosages. Do you even know what sustanon is or how deca works? It seems like you just pinned whatever you could get your hands on into your body rather stupidly...

To answer your question, if i can even figure out your dosing, run clomid for 2 weeks at 100mg daily for two weeks, then 50 mg daily for another 2 weeks. You've waited too long to use HCG so beginning it now would actually be a detriment instead of a benefit. Also, i'd get your hands on something called AROMASIN (EXEMASTANE) and dose it at 25mg daily for 2 weeks, and 12.5mg daily for another 2 weeks just in case estrogen related sides arise. 

In the future, don't even touch anabolics until you understand wtf you're doing. The shit you put up is just fucking bonkers and a complete cycle of crap. You're going to hurt yourself in the future doing stupid shit like this.

You only use HCG during a cycle or in the weeks before the esters clear your system. With deca and test cypionate/enthanate, this would be at least 2 weeks.


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## tballz (Sep 7, 2011)

Grozny said:


> Use of Clomid & HCG during cycle and tapering.
> 
> Even though there are masses articles which give a sufficient answer on  these problems, on the Internet forums always exist diagrams and  opinions, that brings doubt in the user, below the original diagram that  in innumerable derivatives, exists on the net:
> 
> ...


Great read!


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## Digitalash (Sep 7, 2011)

NewGuyToronto said:


> Hi - I just joined the forum and its my first time on any forum whatsoever - so I m just learning the rules - I am 34 years old - have used gear lightly during ages 21-26 on and off - then didnt do anything until this summer - I m 5'7 - 150 lbs - I have abs - and I lost 24 pounds since I started gear in April - I stared with 250 mg/sus - per 5 days and then bumped it to 250 mgs/sus for 7 days - sometimes I used 100 mg/deca - every 5-7 days instead of the sus - never did both together - basically I was doing 1 shot of either one every 5-7 days for 4 weeks and then I started doing 1 shot every 9 days - for 5 weeks - and then I stopped the deca and sus - and I did 1 shot of primo depot per week for 3 weeks - so 3 shots in total - and throughout the cycle - I used 10 mg of anavar - 4-5 times per week - the last sus/deca shot I did was over 1 month ago and the last primo has been about 12 days - I understand that the cycle is relatively light - but it worked great for what I wanted - now I am confused about using HCG - I have that and clomid - but most places I read - say that HCG is for a heavier cycle and should be used throughout the cycle as opposed to PCT - and the one I have is 10,000 IUs - so I dont know if I should use it or save it - and just use the clomid for 2 weeks - please help if u can


 
Wow what a random and pointless cycle. Please for your own sake go over to the "anabolic zone" section and read the "sticky: first cycle and pct". As for your question I have no idea what you even used most recently so it's hard to say when you should start your pct, but 3-4 weeks of clomid is what you want.


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