# Romney vs Barry



## FUZO (Apr 11, 2012)

Put your money on Romney because as some of you might complain Barry canny run on his record and 4 years later he cannot keep blamming bush thats absurd. So every negative ad barry pits out The Republicans can put out double of what barry said 4 years ago which never came through. Ive been reading alot and i'm almost convinced that Barry wants to destroy the United States.But his 4 year terror is almost over. And as Romney brings on his VP and there are alot of good ones out there no matter what the base will come for romney


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## LAM (Apr 11, 2012)

FUZO said:


> Put your money on Romney because as some of you might complain Barry canny run on his record and 4 years later he cannot keep blamming bush thats absurd. So every negative ad barry pits out The Republicans can put out double of what barry said 4 years ago which never came through. Ive been reading alot and i'm almost convinced that Barry wants to destroy the United States.But his 4 year terror is almost over. And as Romney brings on his VP and there are alot of good ones out there no matter what the base will come for romney



what's absurd is that people don't realize the cumulative negative effects of an asset bubble burst which lead to a banking collapse which then caused a global recession...

personal consumption is directly correlated to wealth and income...of which 50% of US workers have none

in the  past 20 years 75% of the net jobs were created by small firms. small firms are reporting a lack of customers.  people have no money.  republican economic policies favor the top down, which only makes the problem worst.


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## IronAddict (Apr 11, 2012)

What's really absurd is wanting to vote out this guy, just so we can have a "R" lead the 'distruction' of the U.S. 

That would make it okay, then.


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## troubador (Apr 11, 2012)

They're basically the same person. What's important is who owns them while they're in office. I know GE owns Obama. I know the NRA bought Romney when his career went national. But beyond that it gets fuzzy.

What would be helpful is a list of companies who own stock in each candidate. Then you could make a better comparison of who to vote for.


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## DOMS (Apr 11, 2012)

troubador said:


> They're basically the same person. What's important is who owns them while they're in office. I know GE owns Obama. I know the NRA bought Romney when his career went national. But beyond that it gets fuzzy.
> 
> What would be helpful is a list of companies who own stock in each candidate. Then you could make a better comparison of who to vote for.



Vibrant originally posted this.


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## LAM (Apr 11, 2012)

Obama
Top Contributors to Barack Obama | OpenSecrets

Romney
Top Contributors to Mitt Romney | OpenSecrets


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## hoyle21 (Apr 11, 2012)

It will be interesting to see how Romney reinvents himself for the general, but right now, the only people excited about Romney are old white men, that's not enough to get elected.


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## ALBOB (Apr 11, 2012)

hoyle21 said:


> It will be interesting to see how Romney reinvents himself for the general, but right now, the only people excited about Romney are old white men, that's not enough to get elected.



Who you callin' old?!?!?


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## ALBOB (Apr 11, 2012)

LAM said:


> in the  past 20 years 75% of the net jobs were created by small firms. small firms are reporting a lack of customers.  people have no money.  republican economic policies favor the top down, which only makes the problem worst.




Have you seen the problem get better under Obama?


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## hoyle21 (Apr 11, 2012)

ALBOB said:


> Have you seen the problem get better under Obama?



What's your definition of better?   My house is worth more, the foreclosures in my neighborhood are now all cleaned up and being lived in.   I have a better job making more money.   Should I answer yes?


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## ALBOB (Apr 11, 2012)

hoyle21 said:


> What's your definition of better?   My house is worth more, the foreclosures in my neighborhood are now all cleaned up and being lived in.   I have a better job making more money.   Should I answer yes?



I was replying to LAM's assertion that most of our economy relies on small business.  Small business are in terrible shape right now and he contends a Republican president will only make things *worse*.  Therefore my question was, "Have you seen the problem get *better* under Obama?"

Again, this is all in reference to small businesses.  If you own a small business and are thriving as you say then yes, your answer to the question should be yes.  Although I'd venture to say you're in the minority of small business owners.


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## hagan (Apr 11, 2012)

We could use more of that voooddoo and the trickle down economics works pretty well. if your a billionaire.  If you wana know what runs down hill ask a plumber.


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## LAM (Apr 11, 2012)

ALBOB said:


> I was replying to LAM's assertion that most of our economy relies on small business.  Small business are in terrible shape right now and he contends a Republican president will only make things *worse*.  Therefore my question was, "Have you seen the problem get *better* under Obama?"
> 
> Again, this is all in reference to small businesses.  If you own a small business and are thriving as you say then yes, your answer to the question should be yes.  Although I'd venture to say you're in the minority of small business owners.



there is only 2 ways for that to happen:

* wage increases - hundreds of economists all over the world have stated time and time again that wages need to come up in the US and it can be done with out causing price inflation.

* make the federal tax code more progressive and uses those monies productively (like not giving them back to large firms in the forms of subsidy, etc.)

the housing asset bubble burst and corresponding bank failures caused the loss of home owner wealth to the tune of around 30%. in previous recession that loss was no greater than 3-4% of homeowner wealth.  income, wealth and consumption are directly related.

people mistook this for "just another recession" when it was surely not...


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## LAM (Apr 11, 2012)

the Federal Reserve Board has been posting pro-union literature on it's website for years...that's how bad wages are in the US.


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## NVRBDR (Apr 11, 2012)

University of California$1,648,685Goldman Sachs$1,013,091Harvard University$878,164Microsoft Corp$852,167Google Inc$814,540JPMorgan Chase & Co$808,799Citigroup Inc$736,771Time Warner$624,618Sidley Austin LLP$600,298Stanford University$595,716National Amusements Inc$563,798WilmerHale LLP$550,668Columbia University$547,852Skadden, Arps et al$543,539UBS AG$532,674IBM Corp$532,372General Electric$529,855US Government$513,308Morgan Stanley$512,232Latham & Watkins$503,295
*obamas top contributors *


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## troubador (Apr 11, 2012)




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## troubador (Apr 11, 2012)

Ron Paul's:

US Army$94,876US Navy$69,430US Air Force$69,131Google Inc$38,699US Dept of Defense$29,778


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## NVRBDR (Apr 11, 2012)

troubador said:


> Ron Paul's:
> 
> US Army$94,876US Navy$69,430US Air Force$69,131Google Inc$38,699US Dept of Defense$29,778



That figures. I like RP political views, just not his ideas about defense.


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## troubador (Apr 11, 2012)

Jimmyusa said:


> That figures. I like RP political views, just not his ideas about defense.



It's funny, those in defense do.


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## NVRBDR (Apr 11, 2012)

Yes it is, maybe they know something we do not...


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## LAM (Apr 11, 2012)

troubador said:


> It's funny, those in defense do.



this is according to whom?  because the voice of US service members is not the voice of the MIC.


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## oufinny (Apr 11, 2012)

LAM said:


> what's absurd is that people don't realize the cumulative negative effects of an asset bubble burst which lead to a banking collapse which then caused a global recession...
> 
> personal consumption is directly correlated to wealth and income...of which 50% of US workers have none
> 
> in the  past 20 years 75% of the net jobs were created by small firms. small firms are reporting a lack of customers.  people have no money.  republican economic policies favor the top down, which only makes the problem worst.



Yes, and bankrupting the country with a budget that was voted down 414 to 0 really is a great plan.  Regardless of how many studies you post, facts you regurgitate from the Fed offices throughout the US or post OECD statistics, you refuse to admit that O'Bama is a HORRIBLE leader, a divider of the country and a hater of those that are successful.  Guess what, no one wants to share what they earned and it is real cute when those dipshits in Hollywood and media say they are fine with it when they all have tax shelters out the ass.  Barry needs to go, I would rather take my chances with the GOP than Barry and that useless idiot Harry Reid (that guy needs to have a heart attack ASAP).


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## oufinny (Apr 11, 2012)

hoyle21 said:


> What's your definition of better?   My house is worth more, the foreclosures in my neighborhood are now all cleaned up and being lived in.   I have a better job making more money.   Should I answer yes?



Prove He or his programs did that.  If you can for each, you can say yes.  He has done nothing for wages that I have seen.  Raising taxes or trying to last I checked is not a driver of wage increases; last I checked even if they go up some, unless it outpaces the increase in taxes and the 10% inflation we face, you don't make more at all.  Keep believing the liar is the lord and savrior and watch this country make Europe look right wing.


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## oufinny (Apr 11, 2012)

LAM said:


> there is only 2 ways for that to happen:
> 
> * wage increases - hundreds of economists all over the world have stated time and time again that wages need to come up in the US and it can be done with out causing price inflation.
> 
> ...



The second will never happen, they have every member of congress bought and sold and there is no incentive to change without term limits giving them a reason to make the hard votes happen.


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## LAM (Apr 11, 2012)

oufinny said:


> Yes, and bankrupting the country with a budget that was voted down 414 to 0 really is a great plan.  Regardless of how many studies you post, facts you regurgitate from the Fed offices throughout the US or post OECD statistics, you refuse to admit that O'Bama is a HORRIBLE leader, a divider of the country and a hater of those that are successful.  Guess what, no one wants to share what they earned and it is real cute when those dipshits in Hollywood and media say they are fine with it when they all have tax shelters out the ass.  Barry needs to go, I would rather take my chances with the GOP than Barry and that useless idiot Harry Reid (that guy needs to have a heart attack ASAP).



your opinion on Obama's leadership skills is subjective and therefore non-factual. 

the current US debt is unpayable.  my guess is you hadn't notice the utter lack of papers on this topic out of the top economists in the country.  nobody wants to touch it with a 10ft pool, so they just keep their mouths closed not even Krugman wants to go there.  as is typical of the ideologue your understand of econ is pathetic and minimal at best.  

the right keeps yammering on about budgets yet they never seem to pass one when they are in control.  where was the balanced budget amendment when GWB was in office and raised the debt ceiling 7 times?

and if the economic policy's of the right are so efficient then why do all the red states rank at the bottom for all economic indicators, education and health?


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## BFHammer (Apr 11, 2012)

LAM said:


> there is only 2 ways for that to happen:
> 
> * wage increases - hundreds of economists all over the world have stated time and time again that wages need to come up in the US and it can be done with out causing price inflation.
> 
> ...



They have been trying that for 50 years in Europe and it's collapsing.  That's why it takes all of Europe and 800 million people to equal our economy of 300 million.  
Socialism doesn't work, didn't you pay attention to the last century and the billion dead bodies socialism left behind?


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## BFHammer (Apr 11, 2012)

LAM said:


> your opinion on Obama's leadership skills is subjective and therefore non-factual.
> 
> the current US debt is unpayable.  my guess is you hadn't notice the utter lack of papers on this topic out of the top economists in the country.  nobody wants to touch it with a 10ft pool, so they just keep their mouths closed not even Krugman wants to go there.  as is typical of the ideologue your understand of econ is pathetic and minimal at best.
> 
> ...


Your democrats haven't passed or even proposed a budget in 3 years, what exactly are Pelosi and Reed doing other than still whining about Bush?  Why is it liberals have the Bush derangement syndrome?  Is liberalism a genetic or acquired defect?  
Obama has outspent all other presidents combined.  He hates this country and everything we stand for.


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## NVRBDR (Apr 11, 2012)

hoyle21 said:


> What's your definition of better?   My house is worth more, the foreclosures in my neighborhood are now all cleaned up and being lived in.   I have a better job making more money.   Should I answer yes?



Where is your home and worth more than what? Your car? Foreclosures are up. Thats great your neighborhood is doing better, but compared to when? If you have a better job, congratulations. Obama is destroying our economy. That is a fact.


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## LAM (Apr 11, 2012)

BFHammer said:


> They have been trying that for 50 years in Europe and it's collapsing.  That's why it takes all of Europe and 800 million people to equal our economy of 300 million.
> Socialism doesn't work, didn't you pay attention to the last century and the billion dead bodies socialism left behind?



the US debt has been increasing steadily since the Revolutionary war, the US hasn't been debt free since.

every country has been carrying debt since WWII, that was the whole purpose of it.  and this debt has increased because of the global recession, which was also intentional.

the right always claims that "socialism" was the cause of European debt yet there is not one single paper from any economist anywhere in the world that supports those statements. now why is that?


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## NVRBDR (Apr 11, 2012)

BFHammer said:


> Your democrats haven't passed or even proposed a budget in 3 years, what exactly are Pelosi and Reed doing other than still whining about Bush?  Why is it liberals have the Bush derangement syndrome?  Is liberalism a genetic or acquired defect?
> Obama has outspent all other presidents combined.  He hates this country and everything we stand for.



^^^^ agreedx10


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## LAM (Apr 11, 2012)

BFHammer said:


> Your democrats haven't passed or even proposed a budget in 3 years, what exactly are Pelosi and Reed doing other than still whining about Bush?  Why is it liberals have the Bush derangement syndrome?  Is liberalism a genetic or acquired defect?
> Obama has outspent all other presidents combined.  He hates this country and everything we stand for.



the increased spending is a direct result of the banking collapse, but of course history doesn't matter to the right apparently it has no effect on the present.  but reduced revenues are the real culprit of the increasing deficit along with the continued trade imbalance with China.


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## NVRBDR (Apr 11, 2012)

LAM said:


> the increased spending is a direct result of the banking collapse, but of course history doesn't matter to the right apparently it has no effect on the present.  but reduced revenues are the real culprit of the increasing deficit along with the continued trade imbalance with China.



And History does matter to the LEFT? Increased spending isn't a reaction or a result, it is part of the "hope and change" agenda.


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## LAM (Apr 11, 2012)

Jimmyusa said:


> And History does matter to the LEFT? Increased spending isn't a reaction or a result, it is part of the "hope and change" agenda.



well history shows that both debt and the size of government has increased the most under republican administrations. maybe that's why the right hates history such much, it can be used as a weapon.


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## troubador (Apr 11, 2012)

LAM said:


> the US debt has been increasing steadily since the Revolutionary war, the US hasn't been debt free since.
> 
> every country has been carrying debt since WWII, that was the whole purpose of it.  and this debt has increased because of the global recession, which was also intentional.



However the U.S. debt to GDP ratio greatly improved following WWII. Under Obama it's the worse it has been since immediately after WWII.






And yes, increasing GDP doesn't actually pay down the debt, taxation does but obviously having a high GDP to debt ratio means the debt isn't as burdensome.


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## LAM (Apr 11, 2012)

troubador said:


> However the U.S. debt to GDP ratio greatly improved following WWII. Under Obama it's the worse it has been since immediately after WWII.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



that's because income taxes post WWII were extremely progressive

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.htmlU.S


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## GearsMcGilf (Apr 11, 2012)

LAM said:


> that's because taxes post WWII were extremely progressive



As was economic growth when europe and japan were completely destroyed and needed the US of A to help with the rebuilding effort.  Raising taxes to pay off debt is fine when the economy is growing rapidly while the competition is in rubble.  Raising them in an economic depression, like the one we're in now, would be a disaster.


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## KelJu (Apr 11, 2012)

DOMS said:


> Vibrant originally posted this.




Haha, that is awesome!


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## LAM (Apr 12, 2012)

GearsMcGilf said:


> As was economic growth when europe and japan were completely destroyed and needed the US of A to help with the rebuilding effort.  Raising taxes to pay off debt is fine when the economy is growing rapidly while the competition is in rubble.  Raising them in an economic depression, like the one we're in now, would be a disaster.



how would raising them on those that have an excess of income be a disaster?  I save 75% of my income without even trying and I'm on the bottom end of the 1%'ers do you really think raising taxes on those making 10's and hundreds of millions a year is going to effect the US economy which is now built around the service sector?

taxes on those that earn the most are at a 60 year low and the wealth concentration in the US keep increasing.  rising inequality since the 80's is exactly why the FRB has constantly reduced the federal funds rate to allow for debt based consumption to continue.  those that want to save can't even do so in reality because the 1% APR that depositors are earning from US banks is far less than the rate of real inflation which is closer to 6.5% a year.


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## Zaphod (Apr 12, 2012)

FUZO said:


> Put your money on Romney because as some of you might complain Barry canny run on his record and 4 years later he cannot keep blamming bush thats absurd. So every negative ad barry pits out The Republicans can put out double of what barry said 4 years ago which never came through. Ive been reading alot and i'm almost convinced that Barry wants to destroy the United States.But his 4 year terror is almost over. And as Romney brings on his VP and there are alot of good ones out there no matter what the base will come for romney



You're a toolbox if you think it really matters who is in office.


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## troubador (Apr 12, 2012)

LAM said:


> that's because income taxes post WWII were extremely progressive
> 
> The Tax Foundation - U.S. Federal Individual Income Tax Rates History, 1913-2011 (Nominal and Inflation-Adjusted Brackets)



Did you forget to mention that spending was also extremely reduced or is that just your mainstream media like bias coming out?


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## secdrl (Apr 12, 2012)

Any way you cut it, Barack has to go. He is a divider and is rapidly promoting an agenda where it doesn't pay to be sucessful in this country. If you're rich, you're evil, if you work hard, you're evil, if you bust your balls for your paycheck, you need to give some of it to the loads who don't/refuse to work.

Until the November election, I think I just continue to be a typical white person who clings to guns and religion.


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## oufinny (Apr 12, 2012)

LAM said:


> your opinion on Obama's leadership skills is subjective and therefore non-factual.
> 
> the current US debt is unpayable.  my guess is you hadn't notice the utter lack of papers on this topic out of the top economists in the country.  nobody wants to touch it with a 10ft pool, so they just keep their mouths closed not even Krugman wants to go there.  as is typical of the ideologue your understand of econ is pathetic and minimal at best.
> 
> ...



Yep I didnt notice, I have to work to support my family not read studies all day. Must be nice to have so much free time.


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## oufinny (Apr 12, 2012)

LAM said:


> the increased spending is a direct result of the banking collapse, but of course history doesn't matter to the right apparently it has no effect on the present.  but reduced revenues are the real culprit of the increasing deficit along with the continued trade imbalance with China.



Listen to yourself, are you and Jay Carney the same person Mr. Question dodger. Typical liberal, incapable of even touching the lack of a budget in violation of current law that clearly states the senate has to produce one every year. Or is that the media lying to us?  It can't be, they are all liberal controlled.


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## DOMS (Apr 12, 2012)

BFHammer said:


> They have been trying that for 50 years in Europe and it's collapsing.  That's why it *takes all of Europe and 800 million people to equal our economy of 300 million*.
> Socialism doesn't work, didn't you pay attention to the last century and the billion dead bodies socialism left behind?



A very interesting fact.

What's just as impressive is Australia. They have about 22.5 million people and are #13 in GDP at 1.23bn USD. Contrast that with India. India has 1.171 billion people and are #9 in GDP at 1.63bn USD. That's _*52x *_the population of Australia.

God, I love facts.

Thinking about it...

GDP generated per person (GDP / population):

Australia: 54.67 USD
India: 1.39 USD

Ouch...

For comparison:
USA: 46.53 USD
South Africa (the *top *Sub-Saharan country): 7.27 USD

Short version: Australians rock! Indians...not so much. And Africa...no surprise there.


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## LAM (Apr 12, 2012)

oufinny said:


> Listen to yourself, are you and Jay Carney the same person Mr. Question dodger. Typical liberal, incapable of even touching the lack of a budget in violation of current law that clearly states the senate has to produce one every year. Or is that the media lying to us?  It can't be, they are all liberal controlled.



blah...blah...blah.....liberal controlled media

every time the GOP on the Hill has lost the upper-hand they change the rules cause they are nothing but a bunch of whinny crybabies but when they are in power they never, ever do what they accused the Dems of not doing...

debt ceiling raised 15 times under Reagan, 7 times under GWB..no balanced budget amendment...blah....blah...blah....


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## hagan (Apr 12, 2012)

LAM said:


> blah...blah...blah.....liberal controlled media
> 
> every time the GOP on the Hill has lost the upper-hand they change the rules cause they are nothing but a bunch of whinny crybabies but when they are in power they never, ever do what they accused the Dems of not doing...
> 
> debt ceiling raised 15 times under Reagan, 7 times under GWB..no balanced budget amendment...blah....blah...blah....



Shouldnt you be a GOP supporter? The Dems are gonna raise your taxes!  lol If you look back in history, Ike who was GOP taxed at a very high rate. Even Reagan raised taxes.  The GOP has gone so far right, the fifties are starting to look progressive.


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## LAM (Apr 12, 2012)

hagan said:


> Shouldnt you be a GOP supporter? The Dems are gonna raise your taxes!  lol If you look back in history, Ike who was GOP taxed at a very high rate. Even Reagan raised taxes.  The GOP has gone so far right, the fifties are starting to look progressive.



I have no problem at all with that.  as the cost of goods and services increases those that have an excess of income would expect a tax increase and not a tax decrease.


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## hagan (Apr 12, 2012)

LAM said:


> I have no problem at all with that. as the cost of goods and services increases those that have an excess of income would expect a tax increase and not a tax decrease.



You would think that would be the case. People do not understand this. The middle class and lower, which is 98% of Americans buy most of the goods that fuels the economy. If wages do not go up they buy less. Wages for the middle class have been stagnent for what, the last twenty years while the top 1 % have increased. When you have such a disparity what happens? Also taxes are not really being raised for the top 1 % their going back to what they were before Bush.


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## Big Smoothy (Apr 12, 2012)

Ok,

I'm chiming in late.

The election is 6 1/2 months away - a very short time.

Obama has been a major disappointment to me.

Complained about gov spending - and did the same.  He also never addressed the serious issues the USA is facing.  Politicians.

It's the lessor of the two bad.

I think the key will be _demographical groups._  Women.  Youth vote.  Turnout of these groups and other groups.

And also....the electoral college.

Look at the swing states. Obama got FL, OH, PA, Indiana and other swing states.  Will he get them again?


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## BFHammer (Apr 12, 2012)

LAM said:


> well history shows that both debt and the size of government has increased the most under republican administrations. maybe that's why the right hates history such much, it can be used as a weapon.



fascinating.  Liberals pretend history doesn't exist.   Please do name a successful leftist country.  
Here is the history of left wing nuts.
Hitler 75 million dead bodies
Mao 80 Million dead bodies
Stalin 60 million dead
Pol 7 million
Kim Jung Il 12 million dead

Please do pick up a history book and talk about the great successes of the left.


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## BFHammer (Apr 12, 2012)

LAM said:


> how would raising them on those that have an excess of income be a disaster?  I save 75% of my income without even trying and I'm on the bottom end of the 1%'ers do you really think raising taxes on those making 10's and hundreds of millions a year is going to effect the US economy which is now built around the service sector?




Obama has decided you have excess housing, more than you need.  Please vacate your premises so the government can house 20 illegals there to prepare for the next electoral vote.  
It's fun having others decide what you deserve isn't it??????

Oh and thanks for saving all that money, we'll take that too,  Michelle needs her 101st vacation.


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## hoyle21 (Apr 12, 2012)

BFHammer said:


> fascinating.  Liberals pretend history doesn't exist.   Please do name a successful leftist country.
> Here is the history of left wing nuts.
> Hitler 75 million dead bodies
> Mao 80 Million dead bodies
> ...



Nazis were fascist, which is considered far right wing, although it does have elements of both.

All the Scandinavian countries are quite successful and very liberal.   The United States of America, not sure you ever heard of it, but it's considered the largest liberal experiment the world has ever seen.


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## BFHammer (Apr 12, 2012)

LAM said:


> that's because income taxes post WWII were extremely progressive
> 
> The Tax Foundation - U.S. Federal Individual Income Tax Rates History, 1913-2011 (Nominal and Inflation-Adjusted Brackets)



Why do liberals always do everything backwards??  The illegal and discriminatory taxes did not create anything, and have never solved anything.  Stolen money can only be stolen from successful people and businesses.  When the government gets the fuck out of the way and out of our pockets the economy rockets.  

Kennedy and Reagan both proved this definitively when they cut taxes from 70% to 28%.  Both created decades of boom economies.  When you stop stealing money people work harder.


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## BFHammer (Apr 12, 2012)

hoyle21 said:


> Nazis were fascist, which is considered far right wing, although it does have elements of both.
> 
> All the Scandinavian countries are quite successful and very liberal.   The United States of America, not sure you ever heard of it, but it's considered the largest liberal experiment the world has ever seen.



National Socialists, no matter how you try to spin it they are leftists.  They did nothing "right".  Government control of business, gun control, eco nuts, all right out of the democrat playbook.  
In fact Hitler credited the American "Progressive" with giving him the foundation of Eugenics to start getting rid of the "useless eaters"  
FDR's Eugenics started before Hitler, and continued far after with forced sterilizations and 78% of abortion clinics being in minority neighborhoods.
What are you possibly attributing as "right wing" about Hitler??

The original "Twenty-Five Point Programme"  of the party, adopted in 1920, listed several economic demands  (including "the abolition of all incomes unearned by work," "the  ruthless confiscation of all war profits," "the nationalization of all  businesses which have been formed into corporations," "profit-sharing in  large enterprises," "extensive development of insurance for old-age,"  and "land reform suitable to our national requirements

Sound like the democrat platform to me.


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## hoyle21 (Apr 12, 2012)

BFHammer said:


> National Socialists, no matter how you try to spin it they are leftists.  They did nothing "right".  Government control of business, gun control, eco nuts, all right out of the democrat playbook.
> In fact Hitler credited the American "Progressive" with giving him the foundation of Eugenics to start getting rid of the "useless eaters"
> FDR's Eugenics started before Hitler, and continued far after with forced sterilizations and 78% of abortion clinics being in minority neighborhoods.
> What are you possibly attributing as "right wing" about Hitler??
> ...




Like I said, fascism does incorporate both left and right wing ideologies, but is  in fact ultra right wing.


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## LAM (Apr 12, 2012)

BFHammer said:


> National Socialists, no matter how you try to spin it they are leftists.  They did nothing "right".  Government control of business, gun control, eco nuts, all right out of the democrat playbook.
> In fact Hitler credited the American "Progressive" with giving him the foundation of Eugenics to start getting rid of the "useless eaters"
> FDR's Eugenics started before Hitler, and continued far after with forced sterilizations and 78% of abortion clinics being in minority neighborhoods.
> What are you possibly attributing as "right wing" about Hitler??
> ...



then why did Rockefeller, Henry Ford, Prescott Bush (Union Bank) and GM all fund Hitler?  they directly helped put him into power, gave him machinery, fuel, etc. to start WWII....


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## hoyle21 (Apr 12, 2012)

LAM said:


> then why did Rockefeller, Henry Ford, Prescott Bush (Union Bank) and GM all fund Hitler?  they directly helped put him into power, gave him machinery, fuel, etc. to start WWII....



The problem Lam is that both extreme ideologies are really fucked up.   Should it be a surprise that someone is having a hard time understanding the difference between an Authoritarian and Totalitarian government?

To the average Joe, they look very similar.


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## DOMS (Apr 12, 2012)

DOMS said:


> A very interesting fact.



D'oh! My numbers were off. I didn't use enough zeros on the GDPs.

Here are the corrected numbers.

Country: GDP / population:
Australia:...........1,270,000,000,000 / ....22,328,800
USA:...............14,530,000,000,000 / ...311,591,917
South Africa:........360,000,000,000 / .....49,991,300
China:...............5,880,000,000,000 / .1,338,299,512
India:................1,631,970,000,000 / .1,170,938,000

Value per person (GDP / population):
Australia: .......56877.21
USA: .............46631.50
South Africa: ....7201.25
China: .............4393.63
India: ..............1393.73


Put anther way:
One Australian is worth 41 Indians.
One American is worth 6.5 South Africans.


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## IronAddict (Apr 12, 2012)

We got some bill o'reilly shit up in dis mug.


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## FUZO (Apr 12, 2012)

hoyle21 said:


> What's your definition of better?   My house is worth more, the foreclosures in my neighborhood are now all cleaned up and being lived in.   I have a better job making more money.   Should I answer yes?




Your saying your house is worth more,with all due respect what state do you live in because the city of chicago I have lost over 60k on my condo alone since barry came into offic lets not even talk about my house. So no disrespect but I have to call b-s


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## FUZO (Apr 12, 2012)

LAM said:


> then why did Rockefeller, Henry Ford, Prescott Bush (Union Bank) and GM all fund Hitler?  they directly helped put him into power, gave him machinery, fuel, etc. to start WWII....




Lam just give it up your poster on your wall of barry will have to come down and used for lighting the fire soon. You have run your mouth but I know for a fact Barry will lose big


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## LAM (Apr 12, 2012)

FUZO said:


> Lam just give it up your poster on your wall of barry will have to come down and used for lighting the fire soon. You have run your mouth but I know for a fact Barry will lose big



just like McCain was going to crush Obama...


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## FUZO (Apr 12, 2012)

big smoothy;
.

Look at the swing states. Obama got fl said:
			
		

> and the answer is hell no count on it


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## Kirk B (Apr 12, 2012)

NO matter what this country is going down hill these kids these days growing up it's going to be bad that's why i think they did all this shit. Made everything high ass hell in prices got there money out of the stock market before it crashed and Marsha didn't care about her little year in a cottage knitting and baking pies minimum security wearing her own clothes for all the money see saved my dad lost a couple of hundred thousand we are the real victims in this, the upper middle class who now live pay check to pay check even tho you could see the signs coming the whole world is going to shit 1 % of the country is rich always have been always will be.

it's all fucked up beyond repair if you ask me   i hope 2012 happens and i hope it hits me head on no suffering i got guns tho if it comes to it lol not kidding


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## FUZO (Apr 12, 2012)

lam said:


> just like mccain was going to crush obama...




if mccain would of ran his camp the right way yeah he would of. Dude your a lost cause now,your end has come. You can post all you want but barry is finished, like i said for every commercial barry comes out with and attacks romney we will have triple the amount. Barry cannot run on his record for the last 4 years. Cant you wake up and see this


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## LAM (Apr 12, 2012)

FUZO said:


> if mccain would of ran his camp the right way yeah he would of. Dude your a lost cause now,your end has come. You can post all you want but barry is finished, like i said for every commercial barry comes out with and attacks romney we will have triple the amount. Barry cannot run on his record for the last 4 years. Cant you wake up and see this



and anybody with half a brain knows you can't fix this economy under a couple of decades...the working class is broke, they have no income, no wealth therefore no ability to consume.  republican policy's work from the top down, which makes this problem worst not better...

the the GOP governors that have increased taxes on those that make the least..that will surely increase consumption and revive our consumption based economy...


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## FUZO (Apr 12, 2012)

LAM said:


> and anybody with half a brain knows you can't fix this economy under a couple of decades...the working class is broke, they have no income, no wealth therefore no ability to consume.  republican policy's work from the top down, which makes this problem worst not better...
> 
> the the GOP governors that have increased taxes on those that make the least..that will surely increase consumption and revive our consumption based economy...





You can always tell a typical Liberal who wont even blame barry a little. Thats all you talk about is the right. But Barry could of done so many things and he didnt. Your barry obama underoos will have to go into the garbage


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## LAM (Apr 12, 2012)

FUZO said:


> You can always tell a typical Liberal who wont even blame barry a little. Thats all you talk about is the right. But Barry could of done so many things and he didnt. Your barry obama underoos will have to go into the garbage



Obama is doing what he was supposed to do, he is nothing but a puppet like POTUS 31-45.

actually you take take JFK out of that list..he obviously wasn't or the gov wouldn't have assassinated him


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## oufinny (Apr 12, 2012)

LAM said:


> blah...blah...blah.....liberal controlled media
> 
> every time the GOP on the Hill has lost the upper-hand they change the rules cause they are nothing but a bunch of whinny crybabies but when they are in power they never, ever do what they accused the Dems of not doing...
> 
> debt ceiling raised 15 times under Reagan, 7 times under GWB..no balanced budget amendment...blah....blah...blah....



Yep, not answering a thing. You literally drank the liberal koi laid and slobbed that liberal knob. You are not even worth my time to read at this point. It's like Barry lying about his energy policy, it's as valuable as watching Richard Simmons.


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## LAM (Apr 12, 2012)

oufinny said:


> You literally drank the liberal koi laid and slobbed that liberal knob. You are not even worth my time to read at this point. It's like Barry lying about his energy policy, it's as valuable as watching Richard Simmons.



that would be rather hard to do not watching, reading or listening to mainstream media.

take note of the downward track of labors share of the national income during the last 2 republican presidency's.  globalization didn't come into effect until 1990.

Nonfarm Business Sector: Labor Share (PRS85006173) - FRED - St. Louis Fed


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## BFHammer (Apr 12, 2012)

LAM said:


> then why did Rockefeller, Henry Ford, Prescott Bush (Union Bank) and GM all fund Hitler?  they directly helped put him into power, gave him machinery, fuel, etc. to start WWII....



Did you really ask that???  All three of the people you listed are socialists.  Your one of those people that think republicans are conservatives?  


Bush was politically active on social issues. He was involved with the American Birth Control League as early as 1942, and served as the treasurer of the first national capital campaign of Planned Parenthood in 1947. Bush was also an early supporter of the United Negro College Fund, serving as chairman of the Connecticut branch in 1951.

All 3 Bush's are socialists, prescription drug plan anyone??

Henry Ford
 Ford left most of his vast wealth to the Ford Foundation but arranged for his family to control the company permanently. He was known worldwide especially from about 1914 as a promoter of pacifism and as a publisher of antisemitic texts such as the book _The International Jew_.[SUP][1][/SUP]

Testifying at Nuremberg, convicted Hitler Youth leader Baldur von Schirach who, in his role as military governor of Vienna deported 65,000 Jews to camps in Poland, stated,  The decisive anti-Semitic book I was reading and the book that  influenced my comrades was [...] that book by Henry Ford, "The  International Jew." I read it and became anti-Semitic. The book made a  great influence on myself and my friends because we saw in Henry Ford  the representative of success and also the representative of a  progressive social policy


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## BFHammer (Apr 12, 2012)

LAM said:


> and anybody with half a brain knows you can't fix this economy under a couple of decades...the working class is broke, they have no income, no wealth therefore no ability to consume.  republican policy's work from the top down, which makes this problem worst not better...
> 
> the the GOP governors that have increased taxes on those that make the least..that will surely increase consumption and revive our consumption based economy...


They tried your bottom up nonsense, it was called the Great Depression which most historians agree was extended because of "the great society".  
How has it worked for China?   They are up to 1250 a year wages!  75% have indoor plumbing now!!  
How about North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela?  
Is there any place or any time in history that ridiculous concept has worked in the real world?

Dump the slave taxes and implement "The Fair Tax ACT" and you would see the greatest economic boom in the history of mankind.

FairTax | American for Fair Taxation | Tax Reform Solutions | Consumption Tax - Americans For Fair Taxation


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## NVRBDR (Apr 12, 2012)

As I read through these posts, I shake my head in frustration because it really doesn't matter who becomes the next POT USA. Really, it doesn't matter, the government cannot save this country, it is way too late. Our great country was sold out by Woodrow Wilson with federal reserve bank being the the shiny new owner way back in 1913. " I 
I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world. No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men. Woodrow Wilson 

Our so called parties work in symphony together never being able to do anything for "we the people"  because they are to busy being selling their votes and having elections bought for them by the unseen powers to the world that are right in front of your face(federal reserve bank families to name some). Our presidential elections have become a mochary, they look like a fricken sitcom on prime time media, the elects have zero integrity and cant tell the truth if they're staring it in the eye!

Ron Paul is the only man running that tells it like it is, but even if he was elected it wouldn't be enough to fix our issues, maybe only slow down the agenda that has been fast tracked over the last 100 years, mainly the last 3 years.

Rothchild was quoted "let me control the money and I care not who makes the laws" the federal reserve and lack of government that is by the people for the people is the frickem problem. George Washington was quoted "it is impossible to rightly govern our nation without God and the bible" our constitution was setup by men with character and integrity that cared about getting away from tyranny and a dictatorship. Thomas Jefferson was quoted "I fear centralized banking institutions more than a standing army" these men understood things that generations of Americans have not been taught. I will probably get flamed or whatever, but these things are true.

This debate thread is really interesting, I respect everyone's views and opinions, and i truly believe we all want whats best fornour great country. unfortunate thing is USA is not the country it once was, don't misunderstand me though, I would live no where else, but generations have been dumbed down and tyranny is already here.   


 Great website to view our origination and what made us great, but will anger you to see where we are today... WallBuilders | Presenting America's forgotten history and heroes, with an emphasis on our moral, religious, and constitutional heritage. You may also enjoy John Petries collection Thomas Jefferson quotes 

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.


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## NVRBDR (Apr 12, 2012)

"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws." Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812), founder of the House of Rothschild.


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## hoyle21 (Apr 13, 2012)

FUZO said:


> Your saying your house is worth more,with all due respect what state do you live in because the city of chicago I have lost over 60k on my condo alone since barry came into offic lets not even talk about my house. So no disrespect but I have to call b-s



Metro Detroit.   My house was built in 04 and I bought it in 08.   The original mortgage was for $245,000.   I got it as a foreclosure for $85,000.   At the time it appraised for $98,000.    The house next to me is almost identical and just sold for $135,000.   The only add on to the house I made is a 26' X 12' deck.


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## LAM (Apr 13, 2012)

BFHammer said:


> They tried your bottom up nonsense, it was called the Great Depression which most historians agree was extended because of "the great society".
> How has it worked for China?   They are up to 1250 a year wages!  75% have indoor plumbing now!!
> How about North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela?
> Is there any place or any time in history that ridiculous concept has worked in the real world?
> ...



until manufacturing is outsourced to other country's in S. East Asia like it is already doing...

A New Chinese Export — Jobs | Knowledge@Wharton Today

Chinese Manufacturing in an Age of Resource Price Volatility - Knowledge@Wharton

it is the same cycle that has happened to every single country that has provided manufacturing labor for the world market, they get a "taste" of an increased standard of living then the jobs get shipped somewhere else where labor is cheaper..

capitalism is a scam......it is nothing but exploitation of labor and globalization is noting but a ruse to link the economy's and supply chains of country's together.

* and your fairtax.org link and program is another scam headed by the ex-head of the Dallas FRB and backed by the Bilderberg Group


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## Zaphod (Apr 13, 2012)

FUZO said:


> Your saying your house is worth more,with all due respect what state do you live in because the city of chicago I have lost over 60k on my condo alone since barry came into offic lets not even talk about my house. So no disrespect but I have to call b-s



It's because you live in Chicago.  Illinois is the most un-gun friendly state in the union.  Eclipsing even Kalifornia.


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## Zaphod (Apr 13, 2012)

FUZO said:


> You can always tell a typical Liberal who wont even blame barry a little. Thats all you talk about is the right. But Barry could of done so many things and he didnt. Your barry obama underoos will have to go into the garbage



Like I said before, you're a fucking tool shed if you think it matters who is in office.  They all play for the same team and it isn't yours.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 13, 2012)

DOMS said:


> D'oh! My numbers were off. I didn't use enough zeros on the GDPs.
> 
> Here are the corrected numbers.
> 
> ...



Fixed.  What good is it that an American generates 6.5x more wealth than an Indian when all of the money is going to the same 5 people anyway?

Things are a lot better for me under Obama, he has nothing to do with that, but I have noticed people are spending more.  Romney will improve conditions for companies to take advantage of workers, consumers, the environment, etc. and I don't think that is necessary, they have it pretty good.  Obama will do the same but under him it won't be as bad.  

Taxes on the wealthy and companies should be higher than what I pay, they hog all of the resources.  Everybody should have a tax burden, there should be no free rides, but to say our debt is driven by the few poor folk in the states that collect welfare is erroneous.  Who benefits more from a good national highway infrastructure, me or fed ex?  Who benefits more from a public education system, me or companies that hire products of that system?  Who benefits more from blowing up other countries, me or Halliburton?  Why should all of these companies pay a smaller proportion of their profits than me when they use everything?  They get all of the use and pay half the rate that I pay.  If I purchased a boat and split it 50/50 with someone and they used it 75% of the time I would get pissed, why is this any different?  A companies profits are directly tied to shipping, hiring qualified personnel, etc., they should at least pay the rate I do.


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## hagan (Apr 13, 2012)

Dale Mabry said:


> Fixed. What good is it that an American generates 6.5x more wealth than an Indian when all of the money is going to the same 5 people anyway?
> 
> Things are a lot better for me under Obama, he has nothing to do with that, but I have noticed people are spending more. Romney will improve conditions for companies to take advantage of workers, consumers, the environment, etc. and I don't think that is necessary, they have it pretty good. Obama will do the same but under him it won't be as bad.
> 
> Taxes on the wealthy and companies should be higher than what I pay, they hog all of the resources. Everybody should have a tax burden, there should be no free rides, but to say our debt is driven by the few poor folk in the states that collect welfare is erroneous. Who benefits more from a good national highway infrastructure, me or fed ex? Who benefits more from a public education system, me or companies that hire products of that system? Who benefits more from blowing up other countries, me or Halliburton? Why should all of these companies pay a smaller proportion of their profits than me when they use everything? They get all of the use and pay half the rate that I pay. If I purchased a boat and split it 50/50 with someone and they used it 75% of the time I would get pissed, why is this any different? A companies profits are directly tied to shipping, hiring qualified personnel, etc., they should at least pay the rate I do.



Well put. The same goes for health care. What good is it if you have the best technology and doctors if only a certain few have access to it.


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## LAM (Apr 14, 2012)

Dale Mabry said:


> Fixed.  What good is it that an American generates 6.5x more wealth than an Indian when all of the money is going to the same 5 people anyway?
> 
> Things are a lot better for me under Obama, he has nothing to do with that, but I have noticed people are spending more.  Romney will improve conditions for companies to take advantage of workers, consumers, the environment, etc. and I don't think that is necessary, they have it pretty good.  Obama will do the same but under him it won't be as bad.
> 
> Taxes on the wealthy and companies should be higher than what I pay, they hog all of the resources.  Everybody should have a tax burden, there should be no free rides, but to say our debt is driven by the few poor folk in the states that collect welfare is erroneous.  Who benefits more from a good national highway infrastructure, me or fed ex?  Who benefits more from a public education system, me or companies that hire products of that system?  Who benefits more from blowing up other countries, me or Halliburton?  Why should all of these companies pay a smaller proportion of their profits than me when they use everything?  They get all of the use and pay half the rate that I pay.  If I purchased a boat and split it 50/50 with someone and they used it 75% of the time I would get pissed, why is this any different?  A companies profits are directly tied to shipping, hiring qualified personnel, etc., they should at least pay the rate I do.



your spot on Dale...

PPP per capita is bogus.  well all they do is divided the GDP by the number of persons in the US workfoce.  66% of the US workforce earns 40K or less and 55% earns less than 30K which is 35% less than the PPP per capita of $46K.  inequality in the US renders most of the old economic indicators useless.


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## FUZO (Apr 14, 2012)

Zaphod said:


> It's because you live in Chicago.  Illinois is the most un-gun friendly state in the union.  Eclipsing even Kalifornia.




What planet are you on and what do guns have to do with how much your house is worth or how much money is lost and you bring up guns. Now go run along to your mother your nose is running


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## Swiper (Apr 16, 2012)

Obama & Romney are pretty much both the same
They both support:
Big govt.
Not cutting spending
Unconstitutional wars
Govt controlled health care
Taking away liberties 
A welfare state 
Bailouts
High taxes 
Growth of govt.

Just to name a few....


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## Shillelagh (Apr 16, 2012)




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## Diesel618 (Apr 16, 2012)

[IMG=http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/669/ronpaulg.jpg][/IMG]
Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Diesel618 (Apr 16, 2012)

fuck this fuckin shit god damnit!


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## hagan (Apr 16, 2012)

Diesel618 said:


> fuck this fuckin shit god damnit!


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## LAM (Apr 16, 2012)

Swiper said:


> Obama & Romney are pretty much both the same
> They both support:
> Big govt.
> Not cutting spending
> ...



the exception of taxes that entire list is true and accurate.  the US is one of the lowest taxed country's in the OECD and world.  taxes on income, large firms and capital are at a 60 year low right now.

high taxes on US large firms where not the cause of them off-shoring jobs and reducing them won't bring the back either.  they were off-shored to save on labor costs and to make a higher return on foreign capital due to the low interest rates out of the US central bank, which is a product of rising and increasing inequality in wages. the ploy by the far right to eliminate taxes on capital will only make matters worst.  this would eliminate taxes on earnings from US based multinationals with foreign operations that are brought back into the US.  and with the exception of the home sale only the top 1% of earners derive any income from capital.

it's a slow walk to the cliff or a sprint...those are our two choices in the US


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## secdrl (Apr 17, 2012)

LAM only votes for Obama because they're both black. LAM is just slightly more educated than the typical 99% in the African-American community. I'd have a lot more respect for LAM if he's just openly admit that there is a part of him that votes based on the fact that Obama is black. 

After the past 3.5 years of total destruction by the Obama White House, there's only one of two reasons that anyone could ever vote for Hussein. Either you're black and need to stick with your people, or you've been living under a rock for the past 3.5 years and paying attention to the atrocities that he has brought to this country.


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## LAM (Apr 17, 2012)

secdrl said:


> LAM only votes for Obama because they're both black. LAM is just slightly more educated than the typical 99% in the African-American community. I'd have a lot more respect for LAM if he's just openly admit that there is a part of him that votes based on the fact that Obama is black.
> 
> After the past 3.5 years of total destruction by the Obama White House, there's only one of two reasons that anyone could ever vote for Hussein. Either you're black and need to stick with your people, or you've been living under a rock for the past 3.5 years and paying attention to the atrocities that he has brought to this country.



I've been following politics since I was in middle school and econ for the last 25 years.  *why would I ever vote for the party that brought neo-liberal economics and globalization to the US and world making the formation of a one world government possible?*

I feel sorry for people like you, so stupid and you don't even know it.


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## Zaphod (Apr 17, 2012)

FUZO said:


> What planet are you on and what do guns have to do with how much your house is worth or how much money is lost and you bring up guns. Now go run along to your mother your nose is running



For a 2nd amendment guy you live in the most anti-gun city in the most anti-gun county and the most anti-gun state.  Pull your head out of your prodigious ass and let some oxygen flow to your brain.  Chicago is a high crime city, crime drives down home value.  Go run home to your mother, her nose is running.  She's full.


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## FUZO (Apr 18, 2012)

Zaphod said:


> For a 2nd amendment guy you live in the most anti-gun city in the most anti-gun county and the most anti-gun state.  Pull your head out of your prodigious ass and let some oxygen flow to your brain.  Chicago is a high crime city, crime drives down home value.  Go run home to your mother, her nose is running.  She's full.





first of all dumpster of the mouth if you think crime brought down the prices of houses in the whole city since 2008 your just plain dump,now remember first grader its a big big city everyone doesnt get shot in chicago the crimes are in a few select areas and I know for god damn sure its not the crimes bringing down the housing market its Barry Obama. Also kid do you know how far are county goes you ignorant kid.It goes all the way to the suburbs. Man I really thought people werent that dumb but when I hear some kind of rant of yours and Lams its disgusting


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## Zaphod (Apr 18, 2012)

FUZO said:


> first of all dumpster of the mouth if you think crime brought down the prices of houses in the whole city since 2008 your just plain dump,now remember first grader its a big big city everyone doesnt get shot in chicago the crimes are in a few select areas and I know for god damn sure its not the crimes bringing down the housing market its Barry Obama. Also kid do you know how far are county goes you ignorant kid.It goes all the way to the suburbs. Man I really thought people werent that dumb but when I hear some kind of rant of yours and Lams its disgusting



You really should read what you typed.  You come across as an ignorant bumpkin.  Speaking of ignorant, Obama wasn't even president in 2008.


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## Diesel618 (Apr 18, 2012)

FUZO said:


> Also kid do you know how far are county goes you ignorant kid.




really bro? are county? 2 "kid"s? You remind me of some other douche bag that said he lived in chi-city and drove an escalade and referred to OUR president as barry. I remember I hate you. And the fact that you're still distinguishing between democrat and republican means your missing the point big time.


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## Diesel618 (Apr 18, 2012)

And I have a strong feeling you live in Lakeview with the rest of the white trash degenerates.


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## heckler7 (Apr 18, 2012)

DOMS said:


> D'oh! My numbers were off. I didn't use enough zeros on the GDPs.
> 
> Here are the corrected numbers.
> 
> ...


Damn Bro, what do you do that you have the time to decifer these numbers. The more posts I read the less I realize I know.


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## heckler7 (Apr 18, 2012)

Zaphod said:


> It's because you live in Chicago. Illinois is the most un-gun friendly state in the union. Eclipsing even Kalifornia.


Were more conservative in Cali than people like to realize, I own guns and we voted down gay marriage. If you ever visited here you would see that outside LA and SF this place is covered with farm land.


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## DOMS (Apr 18, 2012)

heckler7 said:


> Damn Bro, what do you do that you have the time to decifer these numbers. The more posts I read the less I realize I know.



I'm constantly multitasking...and I work on a computer. If something is interesting to me, I'll delve into it.


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## heckler7 (Apr 18, 2012)

my multi tasking is brewing coffee while I make bacon and eggs.


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## LAM (Apr 18, 2012)

heckler7 said:


> Were more conservative in Cali than people like to realize, I own guns and we voted down gay marriage. If you ever visited here you would see that outside LA and SF this place is covered with farm land.



people that have never lived in Cali have believed this for many decades. but the laws in Cali are very strict, Hotel California is always full to capacity for this reason and has been ever since I can remember and I've lived in CA several times during my life.


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## heckler7 (Apr 18, 2012)

LAM said:


> people that have never lived in Cali have believed this for many decades. but the laws in Cali are very strict, Hotel California is always full to capacity for this reason and has been ever since I can remember and I've lived in CA several times during my life.


It's tough, no doubt, I make good money and we struggle, I have no idea how others afford to live here.


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