# I think my Prami is causing emotional issues



## OneWheyOrAnother (Dec 16, 2010)

Hey all.

I am on Day 19 of my cycle. Test Prop/Masteron/NPP

Been taking Prami for 10 days now, today is my 3rd day at 0.75mg
Been taking Letro for 12 days now at 2.5mg ED.

In the past few days I have been feeling strong emotions, like if I watch a sad movie, it might bring tears to my eyes. I am not somebody who EVER cries from emotion, and I just finished watching Inception (which is a kick ass movie) and it made me cry. And I am feeling all sorts of intensified emotions that I am not used to. 

Has anyone else experienced these types of side effects from Prami or is it maybe something else? 

I am thinking it could also be estrogen because my levels were elevated when I got my blood work done, but I was hoping after 12 days of letro my estrogen levels should be lower than they were 12 days ago when I didn't finish these weird emotions. The only thing that has really changed is upping my dose of Prami to 0.75mg.

I feel like a god damn woman! Can anybody chime in on this one for me?

Thanks!


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## njc (Dec 16, 2010)

I can't speak for your exact sides but I do know that prami makes me feel like total ass.  Flu-like sumptoms.


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## Glycomann (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm finishing up  a similar blast and using letro for E control.  I am gyno prone. The letro does the trick for me without and D2 agonist like prami.  Prami can have some difficult side effects.  You may not even need it.  Your letro is pretty high too.  I use 0.5 mg ETD. Progestogenic gyno, which I am assuming you are concerned about, needs estrogen to occur so if you keep E in the low to mid normal range you should be OK without prami. Prami is a dopamine receptor agonist and dopamine receptors modulate emotion and behavior so your symptoms could be due to Prami.  Are you on a high dose of it? AS the dose goes up the D3 and D4 activities become more pronounced and this is where sides present.


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## CanadaGear (Dec 16, 2010)

Never used that stuff but it seems like a harsh drug. Are you sure you need it? Drop it, see if you feel better.


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## ZECH (Dec 16, 2010)

Your letro dose is WAAAY too damn much


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Dec 16, 2010)

dg806 said:


> Your letro dose is WAAAY too damn much



When I got my blood work done, my estrogen was at 80pmol/L

And heavyiron was telling me that 2.5mg of Letro would lower my estrogen around 46% - 62%

Still think my letro is too high ?? Just wondering


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## XYZ (Dec 16, 2010)

CanadaGear said:


> Never used that stuff but it seems like a harsh drug. Are you sure you need it? Drop it, see if you feel better.


 

That's not true.  Cabergoline has been linked to heart valve damage, do you think that's a better alternative?  Or maybe bromo and all of it's sides?

You've never used it but it SEEMS like a harsh drug?  How?


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## XYZ (Dec 16, 2010)

Chronicelite - 

You're supposed to ramp up the dose SLOWLY.  Start at .10mg and up the dose by .10 - .15mg every 3-5 days.  Jumping that high that quick might have something to do with it also.  

The letro takes time to build up in your system also, give it some time, if and when your joints start to hurt then you'll know to cut it back.

Good luck.


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Dec 16, 2010)

CT said:


> Chronicelite -
> 
> You're supposed to ramp up the dose SLOWLY.  Start at .10mg and up the dose by .10 - .15mg every 3-5 days.  Jumping that high that quick might have something to do with it also.
> 
> ...



Yeah, you're right. I bumped it up 0.25mg every 4 days, now riding 0.75mg.
And I just woke up after sleeping for 5 hours with shortness of breath, anxiety and nausea. I didn't have any of these problems at 0.5mg ED, so maybe I should lower it back down for like 7 days and then try to increase it again.

Also, the study that heavyiron provided showed that Letro takes up to 60 days to reach stable plasma levels, but I am using it for gyno treatment so not sure what I should do about the dosage at this point.

Thanks for chiming in CT.


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## XYZ (Dec 16, 2010)

Anytime you're going to go over .5mg ED it's best to split the dose into two.  One in the AM and one in the late afternoon.  Good luck!


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Dec 16, 2010)

CT said:


> Anytime you're going to go over .5mg ED it's best to split the dose into two.  One in the AM and one in the late afternoon.  Good luck!



For myself, at the dosage of 0.75mg, I am doing 0.25mg in the morning and 0.5mg before bed. But for the past few days I have been waking up short of breath. However my brother's dumb b*tch of a girlfriend almost burned my house down and I inhaled a lot of smoke about 5-6 days ago so I thought that was the reason, but I only get this particular side after my nightly dose.


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## CanadaGear (Dec 16, 2010)

CT said:


> That's not true. Cabergoline has been linked to heart valve damage, do you think that's a better alternative? Or maybe bromo and all of it's sides?
> 
> You've never used it but it SEEMS like a harsh drug? How?


 
What's not ture? Yes it seems lke a harsh drug because anything's that's used to treat Parkinson's and bipolar disorder is no fucking joke. Look at the side effects. Hallusinations, twitching, sedation, decreased appetite? This drug is not to fuck with. Why are you taking it? Because you think your progestore levels are high? How much of NPP are you taking?  A gram a week? You're already shooting test and you're killing almost your entire estrogen production with letro. Your body doesn't need Pramipexole or dostinex or bromo. And that could be the reason why you're feeling like shit.


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## XYZ (Dec 16, 2010)

CanadaGear said:


> What's not ture? Yes it seems lke a harsh drug because anything's that's used to treat Parkinson's and bipolar disorder is no fucking joke. Look at the side effects. Hallusinations, twitching, sedation, decreased appetite? This drug is not to fuck with. Why are you taking it? Because you think your progestore levels are high? How much of NPP are you taking? A gram a week? You're already shooting test and you're killing almost your entire estrogen production with letro. Your body doesn't need Pramipexole or dostinex or bromo. And that could be the reason why you're feeling like shit.


 
Again, you said SEEMS harsh, but you didn't even read the studies, nor did you see what the dosing was on the test subjects for the sides you mention.  The sides you speak of are when dosing at 5mg ED and above, get the facts straight BEFORE posting.

I'm also not the original poster, I think you're trying to tell him this and not me?


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## heavyiron (Dec 16, 2010)

Prami improves mood and is used as an antidepressent. 

Usually emotions of sadness are tied to excessive E2 when modifying your hormones however blaming hormones may be premature.


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## CanadaGear (Dec 16, 2010)

CT said:


> Again, you said SEEMS harsh, but you didn't even read the studies, nor did you see what the dosing was on the test subjects for the sides you mention. The sides you speak of are when dosing at 5mg ED and above, get the facts straight BEFORE posting.
> 
> I'm also not the original poster, I think you're trying to tell him this and not me?


 
Yes SEEMS god damn it, lol. Sometimes you have to rely on info provided by scientists to make conclusions about effects of certain drugs, do you understand that? Don't worry about my facts. I read the studies, have you? How do you know those studies are done at 5mg/ed? How do you know side effects don't differ at 2.5mg/ed? How do you know Prami is not a harsh drug? How do you know his mood swings aren't caused by it? How do you know he even needs it all? So please, you GET YOUR FACTS BEFORE POSTING. And yes I was addressing chronicelite questioning the use of Prami in his case. I replied to you becaue I didn't like the way you questioned my post.


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## hackskii (Dec 16, 2010)

dg806 said:


> Your letro dose is WAAAY too damn much


 


chronicelite said:


> When I got my blood work done, my estrogen was at 80pmol/L
> 
> And heavyiron was telling me that 2.5mg of Letro would lower my estrogen around 46% - 62%
> 
> Still think my letro is too high ?? Just wondering


 
It is way too much, driving estrogen down too far is not a good idea for lipids, and mood, along with libido issues.
Estrogen is very important for mood, essential actually.
I am a firm believer in estrogen support, but with that dose you can reverse gyno even on cycle.

I cant handle prami myself and .75 would be too much for me to handle.
I dont think you need it to be honest, inhibiting prolactin can put leydig cells at risk and compromise immune function.


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## heavyiron (Dec 16, 2010)

Prami is actually a pretty awesome drug. It reduces the refractory period between male orgasms. Some guys report orgasms and they continue having sex with another orgasm again within minutes. 

Prami also dumps a ton of HGH about 2 hours after administration. This is obviously very good for the goals of a bodybuilder. I have also never dreamed as vivid as when I was on Prami. 

Prami is well studied in regards to improving mood which is no surprise since cocaine is a dopamine agonist. It does the similar things. Just costs more. 

Additionally the doses we use are pretty low compared to other treatments so we have plenty of studies and many users to refer to when weighing the pros and cons of this medication.

I do think raising the dose too fast can cause sleep disturbances but mine were manageble when I did that.


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## heavyiron (Dec 16, 2010)

hackskii said:


> It is way too much, driving estrogen down too far is not a good idea for lipids, and mood, along with libido issues.
> Estrogen is very important for mood, essential actually.
> I am a firm believer in estrogen support, but with that dose you can reverse gyno even on cycle.


 His labs say otherwise. His E2 goes sky high on cycle. He definitely has high aromatase activity. He has used high doses of arimidex and still has high E2. 

Maybe ask him to post his labs in regards to his AI doses. I think once you see the info you will be surprised.


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## hackskii (Dec 16, 2010)

Nice post on the prami, I think one of the problems is the liquid stuff is super strong, a friend of mine got the pharma prami and didnt have the sides the liquid stuff had.

2.5mg letro a day for most men will crush libido and give some rather stiff joints, it just seems overkill to me from the guys I have talked to.

But excessive aromitization can be caused from excessive belly fat which is where most of the aromataze enzymes reside among other places, and some guys just have more aromatase activity than others.

I wasnt sure if he had his E2 taken while on cycle and showed it elivated.
But, if stiff joints, and libido become an issue, I would reduce dose.
Mast has a slight anti-estrogen effect as well, but the original poster didnt give the doses for the cycle so this may all play in a factor here.

Me personally I am not a big believer in taking a prolacting inhibitor with 19-nortestosterone cycles, after all nandrolone is a progestin, and with all the pulser and releaser HGH drugs out there available, prami would not be my first pic for HGH boosting.
GH isnt that expensive anyway anymore....lol


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## heavyiron (Dec 16, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Nice post on the prami, I think one of the problems is the liquid stuff is super strong, a friend of mine got the pharma prami and didnt have the sides the liquid stuff had.
> 
> 2.5mg letro a day for most men will crush libido and give some rather stiff joints, it just seems overkill to me from the guys I have talked to.
> 
> ...


 If memory serves he was on 2mg of adex per day on cycle and his E2 was still in the female range but maybe he could give the details since relying on my memory is inferior.


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## hackskii (Dec 16, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> If memory serves he was on 2mg of adex per day on cycle and his E2 was still in the female range but maybe he could give the details since relying on my memory is inferior.


 
Wow, that is crazy.......
Ok, now that makes sense as I have known guys to reverse gyno with only 1mg adex a day while on cycle.

Poor guy, does he have very high serum testosterone levels naturally?

Damn, no wonder he is gyno prone.
I am too but .5 adex fixes that on cycle for me.......

Wow, that sucks as estrogen is approx 200 times more supressive than testosterone.
Beings that testosterone (some) gets converted to estrogen and the only way the body has to lower estrogen is to lower testosterone, if that were not bad enough SHBG is elivated with estrogen and this binds to free test lowering free test.

Wow


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## XYZ (Dec 16, 2010)

CanadaGear said:


> Yes SEEMS god damn it, lol. Sometimes you have to rely on info provided by scientists to make conclusions about effects of certain drugs, do you understand that? Don't worry about my facts. I read the studies, have you? How do you know those studies are done at 5mg/ed? How do you know side effects don't differ at 2.5mg/ed? How do you know Prami is not a harsh drug? How do you know his mood swings aren't caused by it? How do you know he even needs it all? So please, you GET YOUR FACTS BEFORE POSTING. And yes I was addressing chronicelite questioning the use of Prami in his case. I replied to you becaue I didn't like the way you questioned my post.


 
I didn't know I was talking with the toughest guy on the internet.....sorry.

You didn't read the studies because they clearly stated that 1-5mg ED was the dose used.  You're incorrect.

I'm not worried about you and your facts, I am concerned that you're talking out of your ass when you clearly have never tried it, nor have you read the studies in which I am referring to.  If you did read them you would know, but you didn't so you don't.

How do I know all that you stated, I don't but I read the studies and I am basing my comments off of that as well as this thread which has at least a hundered different users respond.  How else would you suggest me base my opinions on this being the only information available?

Pramipexole and prolactin suppression: prevention vs. treatment dosing

I think that covers me from "getting my facts straight" as you said it.  And you're facts come from...........oh that's right, they don't.  

You didn't like the way I questioned your post?  What are you 5?  Grow up.


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## hackskii (Dec 16, 2010)

WEll, to be fair Macro does pump prmai big time and I do feel he has something at stake with this one.
I like macro, but some of his wires do get crossed and although he is a very sharp guy and pushes prami alot and likes it himself, many dont including myself and others.

Taking it to help refractory recovery is one thing, but using it for the sake of bumping GH levels IMO is not the best approach at delaing with GH.
That would be like taking viagra when you dont have a partner....lol


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## heavyiron (Dec 16, 2010)

hackskii said:


> *That would be like taking viagra when you dont have a partner.*...lol


 I have been doing it wrong?


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## hackskii (Dec 16, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> I have been doing it wrong?


 
lol

I laugh some times when guys say their libido is low and ask if they should take viagra.

Dont laugh, I do know some guys take low dose and go to the gym to take advantage of vasodilation.


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## CanadaGear (Dec 16, 2010)

CT said:


> I didn't know I was talking with the toughest guy on the internet.....sorry.
> 
> You didn't read the studies because they clearly stated that 1-5mg ED was the dose used. You're incorrect.
> 
> ...


 
I didn't like your answer because it was ignorant and rude. I think you've got self esteem issues. How do you know what I stated is false? Just because you said "you're incorect" doesn't make you right. Where are the studies that you're using? How do they contradict what I said? Who published those studies? Have you yourself used Prami? I said Prami is a harsh drug. Do you disagree? Why? Why is it not a harsh drug? Please explain. I explained why I think its a harsh drug. And please don't tell me I'm talking out of my ass. I really don't. I think you're asshole but I don't think you're talking out of your ass. I actually think you do know some things about AS and some other drugs, you know.


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## MDR (Dec 16, 2010)

I haven't found Prami to be harsh at all.  The main side-effect is sleep related for me.


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## XYZ (Dec 16, 2010)

CanadaGear said:


> I didn't like your answer because it was ignorant and rude. I think you've got self esteem issues. How do you know what I stated is false? Just because you said "you're incorect" doesn't make you right. Where are the studies that you're using? How do they contradict what I said? Who published those studies? Have you yourself used Prami? I said Prami is a harsh drug. Do you disagree? Why? Why is it not a harsh drug? Please explain. I explained why I think its a harsh drug. And please don't tell me I'm talking out of my ass. I really don't. I think you're asshole but I don't think you're talking out of your ass. I actually think you do know some things about AS and some other drugs, you know.


 
Ignorant and rude?  If you say so.

Thanks for letting me know I have self esteem issues, I was unaware of that, I'm sure I'll sleep much better knowing that tonight.  Thanks.

Go to www.pubmed.com and look at all of the studies there, also go through the link I posted as there are numerous studies posted throughout the 21 pages.  That's where I got all of my information, along with using it numerous times with blood work results to back up my claims, but you've 1.  Never tried it, 2.  Never read the studies and 3. are going on here say?  Is that about right?

You didn't explain why it's a harsh drug, you listed the sides which you've read about, but actually you didn't read about because you didn't read the studies.

You are talking out your ass.  There is no other way to say it.  How's you have no idea what you're talking about?  Is that better?

Why are you going around calling me an asshole anyhow?  I don't agree with much that you have to say but I'm not insulting you or name calling like a 5 year old, grow up.  Is this how you react when you don't agree with someone?  Maybe, just maybe you have the self esteem issues?


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## heavyiron (Dec 16, 2010)

MDR said:


> I haven't found Prami to be harsh at all. The main side-effect is sleep related for me.


 Same here.


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Dec 16, 2010)

Wow I feel like I have begun some sort of intense debate and feel responsible.
Can't we all just get along?

thank you all for your great contributions !



hackskii said:


> 2.5mg letro a day for most men will crush libido and give some rather stiff joints, it just seems overkill to me from the guys I have talked to.



True, but not everybody is identical. My asshole of a friend has done as many cycles as me, and gets great gains off of an Anavar only cycle at 60mg ED.
I have to add 2 other compounds in order to get the same gains as him, and my diet is 10 times better than his. He even drinks on cycle.... 



heavyiron said:


> If memory serves he was on 2mg of adex per day on cycle and his E2 was still in the female range but maybe he could give the details since relying on my memory is inferior.



Yeah I was on 2mg of Adex per day while on cycle and my lump was actually STILL GROWING. 

Currently (against heavyiron's recommendation) I am actually taking Letro at 2.5mg ED and Aromasin at 25mg ED because I needed to overlap while adding in the Letro, and now have been overlapping 13 days. 

I am not having any libido issues, my joints are fine (might be the NPP ?) and my gyno is still somewhat fluctuating but for the most part is probably down about 15% - 20% in size which may be just a reduction in inflammation and not tissue reduction.

Some time next week I am going to get my E2 checked again to see what is going on with my levels.

Since I heard Masteron can occupy receptor sites, could it be cause a high estrogen reading ?

When I say that I am gyno prone, I mean that if I eat a big mac and a milkshake, the next day I notice an increase in size and soreness while NOT on cycle.

And for those that are curious, my cycle dosage is as follows;

Test Prop @ 100mg ED (700mg EW)
Masteron Prop @ 75mg ED (525mg EW)
NPP @ 75mg ED (525mg EW)

I hope I addressed everybody who had questions, and thanks again.


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## hackskii (Dec 16, 2010)

Wow, that is the most AI I have heard any one use ever, and I have been at this game for quite some time being 51 and all...lol

Sounds like you have the liquid chems and not pharma, is this so?
If it is so then it probably is under dosed.

But, I have bought some liquid clen that was probably double or more what the dose was and that stuff was seriously strong.

The prami I bought from afstore was over dosed too, I felt like I was in a coma with the lowest dose.
I felt terrible on that and gave it away.

One other thing might be happening here, high glycemic meals can spike insulin and although insulin is a storage hormone it does have an inflammatory responce, so you probably might be a bit sensitive to high glycemic carbs.

You dont notice the same effect with low GI/GL foods do you?

For what it is worth, I think you look pretty good in your avatar bro, dont cut yourself short.


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## CanadaGear (Dec 16, 2010)

CT said:


> Ignorant and rude? If you say so.
> 
> Thanks for letting me know I have self esteem issues, I was unaware of that, I'm sure I'll sleep much better knowing that tonight. Thanks.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for trying to be a father figuire, mr. CT, sir. That's what it is, I need to grow and stop telling people they're assholes because they can't take criticism because their post count doesn't allow it. I get it now. Thank you. Telling me I'm talking out of my ass is an insult, to me. And you are an asshole. I'm going around calling you an asshole because you deserved it. Now back to the subject at hand. Prami is no Tylenol. As much CT wants it to be. Are you pushing it, CT? Is that what it is? I tried similar drugs in the past, bromo and dostinex. They come with nasty side effects too. So once again, i'm going to say this, Prami is a hursh drug. Its possible side effects are harsh. I'm sorry to say this, CT but the studies done on this drug do not take away its side effects. You can research all night tonight and post more studies but its still a nasty drug. But thanks for posting the links. I don't know how to post links. You really know your computer, CT!


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Dec 16, 2010)

Thanks bro. 

Low GI foods seem to be more gyno friendly for me. But it's VERY HARD to stay low carb all the time, especially when cutting, I need my refeeds or I drop dead during heavy workout days haha as I like to do HIIT.

I ordered my Letro and Prami from CEM Products and was told they are GTG ?? 
Anybody else think differently?

Thanks for the compliment about my avatar dude, I am a major endomorph with an above average number of fat cells due to being obese as a child, therefore it is MUCH HARDER for me to achieve and maintain a low body fat percentage, but due to psychological issues and being bullied while growing up, I need to stay lean year round in order to be confident in myself. 

I think that even though I am lean, the NUMBER of fat cells is causing me to have high aromatase activity. But who knows....

I love the prami, but I just wish I could avoid the abdominal pain, nausea, dizziness, occasional shortness of breath and anxiety. Insomnia is something I have dealt with my whole life anyways, so it doesn't bother me.

I am lowering the dose down to 0.5mg for 7 days, and hopefully going to step it back up to 0.75mg once things stabilize a little better, I think I just increased it too quickly.


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Dec 16, 2010)

CanadaGear said:


> Thanks for trying to be a father figuire, mr. CT, sir. That's what it is, I need to grow and stop telling people they're assholes because they can't take criticism because their post count doesn't allow it. I get it now. Thank you. Telling me I'm talking out of my ass is an insult, to me. And you are an asshole. I'm going around calling you an asshole because you deservied it. Now back to the subject at hand. Prami is no Tylenol. As much CT wants it to be. Are you pushing it, CT? Is that what it is? I tried similar drugs in the past, bromo and dostinex. They come with nasty side effects too. So once again, i'm going to say this, Prami is a hursh drug. Its possible side effects are harsh. I'm sorry to say this, CT but the studies done on this drug do not take away its side effects. You can research all night tonight and post more studies but its still a nasty drug. But thanks for posting the links. I don't know how to post links. You really know your computer, CT!



Dbol is a harsh steroid, but you don't see everyone getting high BP, gyno, water retention, etc... from it... Not everyone is going to react the same to a drug.

I have seen multiple threads where people are loving it. Apparently I am not one of those people yet because I increased my dose too quickly.


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## hackskii (Dec 16, 2010)

Oh, off the top of my head a few things I can intergect to possibly help here, but vague in nature.

Gut issues?
Pro-biotics would be an awesome addition here, as well as digestive enzymes, this will allow you to get more out of your food, better elimination, improve immune system (70% of immune system is actually in your intestines), aid in over production of yeast (sadly I notice this on cycle), and help to have less bloat.

Sounds like you are also having problems with insulin resistance, this may help.
Lower your glycemic index of your carbs, you dont have to eliminate them but you can lower that and it will help with fat management, remember insulin is a storage hormone.

This is what may be happening.
High glycemic foods spike insulin, insulin is a storage hormone, so that meal spikes insulin, insulin lowers the blood sugars. Due to the brain being the highest glucose hog in the body it will call out for food due to the fact last meal got stored and left the brain a bit low.

So, you can lower the glycemic load of a meal using fiber, and oils, monounsaturated oils work well like olive oil and fish oils.
Fish oils will help with insulin resistance, and help elivate PG-1 and PG-3 which are prostaglandins what lower inflammation in the body.
this will help you be more insulin sensitive and lower overall inflammation.

Melatonin is a great hormone that turns on when the sun goes down, this is like a biological clock that sends a hormonal signal to sleep.
Melatonin is awesome and 3mg would work well and it is very cheap.
Not to mention it has anti-cancer properties, a very strong anti-oxidant, can but dont quote me on this one bump GH production during sleep.
Actually is used in Europe for some prostate cancer treatments.
Its safe, not habbit forming but take it a couple of hours before you go to bed.

Your other things I can give you a list of herbs that may help but some of the steroids you are taking have DHT dirivitives and actually cause central nervous system stimulation.
That may be causeing that.

I will post more as time goes on, and when more information hits me from your posts.


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Dec 16, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Oh, off the top of my head a few things I can intergect to possibly help here, but vague in nature.
> 
> Gut issues?
> Pro-biotics would be an awesome addition here, as well as digestive enzymes, this will allow you to get more out of your food, better elimination, improve immune system (70% of immune system is actually in your intestines), aid in over production of yeast (sadly I notice this on cycle), and help to have less bloat.
> ...



Great post but I am already doing literally everything that you have suggested. I am a Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine in training, and I take regular probiotics (in high doses), I eat healthy fats to slow absorption, I take a great source of chromium to help with blood sugar and keep my GI low except on refeed days. I consume organic walnuts which contain the only source of natural melatonin. 

Thanks for your suggestions.


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## Life (Dec 16, 2010)

chronic you really need to save up and have the gyno removed man. I think it will pay for itself a lot faster than you think considering how much you're losing in gains and how much you're paying in AI's. Are you old enough to be on TRT? Wonder if insurance would cover some of a gyno surgery. Doubtful though I'm sure.


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## hackskii (Dec 16, 2010)

chronicelite said:


> Great post but I am already doing literally everything that you have suggested. I am a Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine in training, and I take regular probiotics (in high doses), I eat healthy fats to slow absorption, I take a great source of chromium to help with blood sugar and keep my GI low except on refeed days. I consume organic walnuts which contain the only source of natural melatonin.
> 
> Thanks for your suggestions.



Oh fantastic I will be getting ahold of you with some Chineese herbal questions if you don't mind?


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## ZECH (Dec 16, 2010)

chronicelite said:


> Currently (against heavyiron's recommendation) I am actually taking Letro at 2.5mg ED and Aromasin at 25mg ED because I needed to overlap while adding in the Letro, and now have been overlapping 13 days.
> 
> I am not having any libido issues, my joints are fine (might be the NPP ?) and my gyno is still somewhat fluctuating but for the most part is probably down about 15% - 20% in size which may be just a reduction in inflammation and not tissue reduction.



Good lord.............10mg Stane or .25 Letro is more than I have ever needed. I actually like some estrogen... At that it hurts my libido. This is the most I have ever seen anyone need. If you get your E2 checked, please post the results.


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## heavyiron (Dec 16, 2010)

dg806 said:


> Good lord.............10mg Stane or .25 Letro is more than I have ever needed. I actually like some estrogen... At that it hurts my libido. This is the most I have ever seen anyone need. If you get your E2 checked, please post the results.


I have seen guys on 5mg of Letro every day. Some guys have high aromatase activity.


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## ZECH (Dec 16, 2010)

If that were me, I think I would steer clear of roids.


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Dec 16, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> I have seen guys on 5mg of Letro every day. Some guys have high aromatase activity.



Wow, jesus christ !!!!!!!!! 



dg806 said:


> Good lord.............10mg Stane or .25 Letro is more than I have ever needed. I actually like some estrogen... At that it hurts my libido. This is the most I have ever seen anyone need. If you get your E2 checked, please post the results.



I had my levels 9 days ago, so maybe another 5 days and I'll get them checked again.


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## Glycomann (Dec 16, 2010)

CT said:


> Ignorant and rude?  If you say so.
> 
> Thanks for letting me know I have self esteem issues, I was unaware of that, I'm sure I'll sleep much better knowing that tonight.  Thanks.
> 
> ...



How do you not ban this clown CanadaGear?  If I was a mod here I would have ban hammered him by now.


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## CanadaGear (Dec 16, 2010)

chronicelite said:


> I have seen multiple threads where people are loving it. Apparently I am not one of those people yet because I increased my dose too quickly.


 
bro, dostinex makes you feel pretty fucking good too but its not worth the heart problems.


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Dec 17, 2010)

So far I have taken 0.25mg of Prami this morning and felt like absolute GARBAGE.

I have been taking 0.75mg for a 3 days prior to this, and am contemplating whether I should take my second dose of 0.25mg (lowering my dosage down to 0.5mg) before bed or if I should just remain at 0.25mg for today and do 0.5mg tomorrow.

0.5mg never caused a problem, however maybe it was because it hadn't had a chance to build up in my system yet? Thoughts ?


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## SFW (Dec 17, 2010)

> Hallusinations, twitching, sedation


 
  sign me up!


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## The Prototype (Dec 17, 2010)

Funny...I saw this thread but didn't read it until this morning. I just happen to watch Inception last night. Good movie. I also had a vivid dream last night about my dad who passed away a few years ago. I started to get a little emotional myself but I'm not on prami.


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## CanadaGear (Dec 17, 2010)

Glycomann said:


> How do you not ban this clown CanadaGear? If I was a mod here I would have ban hammered him by now.


 
I'm sure you would have, because you're so tough. A real man. CT, I think Glycomann wants your job.


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## XYZ (Dec 17, 2010)

CanadaGear said:


> Thanks for trying to be a father figuire, mr. CT, sir. That's what it is, I need to grow and stop telling people they're assholes because they can't take criticism because their post count doesn't allow it. I get it now. Thank you. Telling me I'm talking out of my ass is an insult, to me. And you are an asshole. I'm going around calling you an asshole because you deserved it. Now back to the subject at hand. Prami is no Tylenol. As much CT wants it to be. Are you pushing it, CT? Is that what it is? I tried similar drugs in the past, bromo and dostinex. They come with nasty side effects too. So once again, i'm going to say this, Prami is a hursh drug. Its possible side effects are harsh. I'm sorry to say this, CT but the studies done on this drug do not take away its side effects. You can research all night tonight and post more studies but its still a nasty drug. But thanks for posting the links. I don't know how to post links. You really know your computer, CT!


 

I've stated my case time and time again. You just don't get it but you continue to insult me. 

Bottom line: Cut the crap or leave. It's fine to disagree but be civil about it. 

Insted of you answering any questions you just try and turn it around and question the question, you don't have the answers and you know it.

Bottom line is if you think it's a harsh drug fine, that's your opinion.

When you decide to spit out all of these "sides" that a user will get without ever using it, reading any of the studies or knowing what doses were used then yes......you're talking out of your ass.

Post counts mean nothing, sorry you feel that way.


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## CanadaGear (Dec 17, 2010)

CT said:


> I've stated my case time and time again. You just don't get it but you continue to insult me.
> 
> Bottom line: Cut the crap or leave. It's fine to disagree but be civil about it.
> 
> ...


 
lol, you're a funny guy, CT. You make this post and warn me via PM that you'll ban me if I say anything else. You're turning a discussion board into an army base. You weren't civil about this whole discusion to begin with. Who gave you the right to insult people, CT? Are you special? Where's the studies to prove that var always shuts you down? You conviniently backed down from that argument and decided to butt in on my opinion on Prami.


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Dec 17, 2010)

Guys come on.... this argument is getting old. A debate is fine but you guys are just attacking each other.

Either way, I decided to take the other dosage of 0.25mg making it a total of 0.5mg yesterday and I didn't have as many issues last night. I still woke up once in a panic, gasping for air and my heart was pounding, but nothing too intense. And I didn't wake up feeling like I just smoked an entire pound this morning like I did the last 4 mornings, so I think I'm moving in the right direction


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## XYZ (Dec 17, 2010)

CanadaGear said:


> lol, you're a funny guy, CT. You make this post and warn me via PM that you'll ban me if I say anything else. You're turning a discussion board into an army base. You weren't civil about this whole discusion to begin with. Who gave you the right to insult people, CT? Are you special? Where's the studies to prove that var always shuts you down? You conviniently backed down from that argument and decided to butt in on my opinion on Prami.


 
My "Warning" said that your acting like an ass and that if you don't like it, leave. 99% of people would have banned you from the start. Tell the truth and how it was really stated. I also never stated that I would ban you if you said anything else, that's just not true and you know it.

Here are the two studies I am referring to:


*Efficacy, safety and dose-response of pramipexole: randomized trial.*
Inoue Y, Kuroda K, Hirata K, Uchimura N, Kagimura T, Shimizu T.
Japan Somnology Center, Neuropsychiatric Research Institute, Tokyo, Japan. inoue@somnology.com
*Abstract*

AIMS: To assess the safety and efficacy of pramipexole and to investigate factors predictive of early treatment response.
METHODS: Patients with primary RLS and the International Restless Legs Syndrome Study Group rating scale (IRLS) total score of >15 were randomized to receive pramipexole 0.25, 0.5 or 0.75 mg/day for 6 weeks.
RESULTS: A total of 154 patients were recruited. Following treatment, the mean adjusted change in IRLS score in the 0.25, 0.5 and 0.75 mg/day groups was -12.3, -12.5 and -11.8, respectively. The proportion of IRLS responders at week 2, when all patients were receiving pramipexole at a dose of 0.25 mg/day, was 34.0-37.7%. *At 6 weeks, when the patients were on 0.25, 0.5 or 0.75 mg/day*, IRLS responders defined as those having a ≥50% reduction in IRLS score accounted for 60.4, 58.5 and 49.1%, respectively. Older age above the median value (≥55 years) and low IRLS score at baseline (<21.5 points) were significantly associated with early response to low-dose pramipexole therapy. The type and frequency of adverse events were consistent with the known safety profile for dopamine agonists in RLS.
*CONCLUSIONS: Pramipexole at 0.25-0.75 mg/day is efficacious, safe and well tolerated.*



*The effects of oxandrolone on the growth hormone and gonadal axes.*

*Malhotra A**, **Poon E**, **Tse WY**, **Pringle PJ**, **Hindmarsh PC**, **Brook CG**.*
*Endocrine Unit, Middlesex Hospital, London, UK.*
*Abstract*

OBJECTIVE: We studied the effects of oxandrolone on serum concentrations of LH, FSH, testosterone, GH, SHBG, DHEAS, IGF-I and insulin in men with constitutional delay of growth.

DESIGN: Ten men with constitutional delay of growth, mean age 18.8 years (range 17.4-22.5) were studied. Twenty-four-hour serum concentration profiles of GH, LH and FSH were constructed by drawing blood samples at 20-minute intervals. *Three study occasions over a period of 6 months were chosen to assess hormone concentrations before, during and 6 weeks after a 3-month course of oxandrolone (2.5 mg once daily)* therapy.

RESULTS: Growth velocity increased during oxandrolone treatment and stayed higher after therapy (pre 3.9 +/- 0.5; on 6.3 +/- 0.8; post 6.4 +/- 0.9 cm/year (mean +/- SEM) two way ANOVA, F = 5.3, P = 0.02). *Oxandrolone had androgenic effects, suppressing mean serum LH concentrations from 1.7 +/- 0.3 to 1.1 +/- 0.2 U/I and serum testosterone concentrations from 1.9 +/- 0.6 to 0.8 +/- 0.1 nmol/l. SHBG* concentrations were also reduced from 130.9 +/- 14.6 to 30.7 +/- 7.3 nmol/l. Serum GH concentration fell slightly from 5.9 +/- 0.6 to 4.8 +/- 0.5 mU/l. *After cessation of treatment, there was a significant 'rebound' in mean 24-hour serum LH (2.6 U/l +/- 0.4) and testosterone concentrations* (3.2 +/- 0.9 nmol/l) but no change in serum GH concentrations. SHBG values also rose but not to the same extent as those observed before therapy (82.0 +/- 8.4 nmol/l). There were no statistically significant differences in serum concentrations of FSH, DHEAS, IGF-I and insulin over the study period. In a stepwise multiple regression analysis of factors that might influence the growth rate observed, the 24-hour mean serum testosterone concentration and the treatment (on or off) with oxandrolone were the main influences. The relationship was described by the equation Height velocity = 0.69 (24-hour mean serum testosterone concentration)+1.70 (treatment regimen)+3.37 (adjusted R2 = 0.35, F = 8.39, P = 0.001).

*CONCLUSIONS: **Oxandrolone has an androgenic action as shown by decreased changes in serum LH, FSH, testosterone and SHBG concentrations.* No effect of oxandrolone on the GH axis was documented. We suggest that the growth promoting effects of oxandrolone are related in part to the mild androgenic effects of the steroid and the growth acceleration *following oxandrolone withdrawal reflects increasing total serum testosterone concentrations and decreasing levels of SHBG and progress.*



Please feel free to post your studies or tell me that these are indeed wrong.


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## hackskii (Dec 17, 2010)

I hope nobody minds me airing my thoughts.
The above study with var suggests just 2.5mg dose causes a decline in both LH, and FSH and a reduction in testosterone is shown.

Many people suggest var is non supressive but from personal use, it is.
Lets not forget that 2.5mg a day isnt going to do much of anything other than lower your 7mg daily dose of testosterone to try and maintain homeostasis.
Women use more var than that.

Last var cycle I did was 75mg ED, 7 weeks later I had noticible testicular atrophy.

I want to add the rebounding is due to LH spiking to force the nuts to come back to normal range and mild supression.
Rebounding is just the body trying to get back to homeostasis and not some magical bridge type of thing.
All steroids cause some form of supression, anavar is very tame and at 2.5mg ED, gains would hardly be noticable. Supplementing exogenous steroids and interfering endogenous production is pointless.


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Dec 17, 2010)

Today I am experiencing minor muscle twitches, headaches and drowsiness. Definitely better than yesterday though. Yesterday I was considering hanging myself (just kidding)


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## CanadaGear (Dec 17, 2010)

CT said:


> My "Warning" said that your acting like an ass and that if you don't like it, leave. 99% of people would have banned you from the start. Tell the truth and how it was really stated. I also never stated that I would ban you if you said anything else, that's just not true and you know it.
> 
> 
> 
> Please feel free to post your studies or tell me that these are indeed wrong.


 
That makes no sense. You gave me a warning to leave? The truth is you insulted me first but expected not be insulted back. Then pressured me to keep quite via PM by threatening to ban me. You're abusing your moderator's authority. I don't like you but I won't leave because I like the board. 

Now regarding the studies. I already posted a quote from the anavar profile on steroid.com which is supported by several studies. They're all posted there. As far as Prami goes:

*Pramipexole for levodopa-induced complications in Parkinson's disease*
*Clarke CE, Speller J, Clarke JA*

In the later stages of Parkinson's disease, side effects occur because of the use of levodopa in its treatment. These consist of involuntary writhing movements (dyskinesia), painful cramps in the legs and a shortened response to each dose referred to as 'end-of-dose deterioration' or the 'wearing-off effect'. Dopamine agonist drugs act by mimicking levodopa in the brain, but they do not cause these long-term treatment complications. For this reason, dopamine agonists have for some years been added once these problems develop in the hope of improving them. Pramipexole is a new dopamine agonist recently licensed in the UK for the treatment of later Parkinson's disease. In this review, we will examine the trials performed with this drug to see how effective it is and what side effects it causes.

Four trials have compared pramipexole with placebo in 669 patients with later Parkinson's disease. Two studies were medium term (24 weeks) and 2 studies were short term (4 weeks). Pramipexole significantly reduced the time patients spent in the immobile off state compared with placebo by an average of 1.8 hours. No changes occurred in a dyskinesia rating scale in any of the studies, *but dyskinesia recorded as a side effect was reported more frequently with pramipexole*. A significant improvement occurred in the Unified Parkinson's Disease Rating Scale (UPDRS) complication score in 2 studies but not in the remaining trials. Significant improvements in UPDRS activities of daily living score occurred with pramipexole in all studies. Significant improvements in UPDRS motor scores in the mobile on state were reported in 3 of the 4 studies. Levodopa dose reduction was allowed in 3 studies and meta-analysis showed a significant difference in favour of pramipexole. *There was a suggestion of more side effects such as nausea, vomiting and dizziness with pramipexole and a definite increase in hallucinations in those given pramipexole*. There were significantly fewer withdrawals from pramipexole.

In conclusion, pramipexole can be used to reduce off time, improve motor impairments and disability and reduce levodopa dose at the expense of *increased dyskinetic side effects*. This is based on short and medium term trials (up to 24 weeks). Further trials are required to directly compare the newer with the older dopamine agonists.

This is a Cochrane review abstract and plain language summary, prepared and maintained by The Cochrane Collaboration, currently published in The Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2010 Issue 12, Copyright © 2010 The Cochrane Collaboration. Published by John Wiley and Sons, Ltd.. The full text of the review is available in The Cochrane Library (ISSN 1464-780X).

This record should be cited as: Clarke CE, Speller J, Clarke JA. Pramipexole for levodopa-induced complications in Parkinson's disease. Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2000, Issue 3. Art. No.: CD002261. DOI: 10.1002/14651858.CD002261

Editorial Group: Movement Disorders Group
This version first published online: July 24. 2000
Last assessed as up-to-date: January 24. 2000


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Dec 17, 2010)

Seriously? You're quoting studies done on people with Parkinson's disease?
That's like saying studies done on women apply to studies done on men....


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## CanadaGear (Dec 17, 2010)

chronicelite said:


> Seriously? You're quoting studies done on people with Parkinson's disease?
> That's like saying studies done on women apply to studies done on men....


 
Yes, seriously. The study CT has posted used patiends with RLS. That's fine. I know you want to see studies done on guys using test, npp and letro


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## CanadaGear (Dec 17, 2010)

Here's another one. This one was done on patiens with PD and RLS.

Pramipexole
Sifrol (Boehringer Ingelheim)
125 microgram, 250 microgram and 1 mg tablets

Approved indications: Parkinson’s disease, restless legs syndrome
Australian Medicines Handbook section 16.2.1

In Parkinson’s disease, there is a reduced concentration of dopamine in the nigrostriatal system. Dopamine agonists, such as bromocriptine, therefore have a role in the treatment of Parkinson’s disease. Pramipexole is a non-ergoline dopamine agonist which acts on D2 and D3 receptors (see ‘Dopamine – clinical applications i. neurology’, Aust Prescr 1994;17:21-3). Levodopa (combined with a decarboxylase inhibitor) remains the first-line drug treatment for Parkinson’s disease of moderate severity. In advanced disease, the effect of this therapy starts to wear off. Maintaining the stimulation of dopamine receptors may alleviate this disabling complication.

When pramipexole was added to levodopa treatment, in a double-blind trial of 291 patients with advanced disease, it was more effective than placebo. Pramipexole improved motor function and decreased ‘off’ time. The patients’ self-assessments also suggested that the severity of the ‘off’ time was reduced by pramipexole. Compared to placebo, the biggest changes were seen in rigidity, resting tremor, hand movements and finger tapping. At the end of the 32-week trial, the dose of levodopa required by the patients taking pramipexole had been significantly reduced.1

In the trial, the maximum dose was 4.5 mg a day. Usually pramipexole is given in divided doses, beginning with 125 microgram three times a day. The dose is increased every week if the patient is improving without adverse effects. While the dose is being titrated, the dose of levodopa can be reduced.

After a dose-ranging study in early Parkinson’s disease [2], pramipexole was compared with levodopa in a double-blind trial involving 301 patients. Those randomised to receive pramipexole took longer to develop problems with the effect wearing off, on-off fluctuations or dyskinesia.[3]

Pramipexole also has an indication for restless legs syndrome. It was compared with placebo in a 12-week trial involving 344 patients. On a 40-point symptom rating scale, there was a mean improvement of 9.3 points with placebo and a 12.8 point improvement in people taking pramipexole 250 microgram daily. While 75% of patients responded to this dose of pramipexole, the response in the placebo group was 51%.4

In Parkinson’s disease, lower doses of pramipexole are required if the patient has renal impairment as the drug is mainly excreted unchanged in the urine. The elimination half life is increased from 8 to 12 hours in elderly patients. Renal clearance is also reduced by cimetidine which is thought to inhibit secretion in the renal tubules. This mechanism also creates the potential for interactions between pramipexole and ranitidine, diltiazem, verapamil, digoxin, triamterene and trimethoprim.

Some of the adverse effects of pramipexole can be predicted because of its stimulation of dopamine receptors. For example,* up to 17% of patients will develop hallucinations. Other common adverse effects include nausea, insomnia, somnolence and dyskinesia. A few patients have fallen asleep suddenly, including when driving, and others have become compulsive gamblers while taking pramipexole.*

Pramipexole should be withdrawn gradually over several days. Sudden cessation of antiparkinson drugs can cause neuroleptic malignant syndrome.

There are few published comparative studies of the dopamine agonists. A study in which pramipexole compared favourably with bromocriptine did not have enough power to show a statistical difference.5 There is limited information about the long-term use of pramipexole. This is important because, for example, retinal degeneration has been seen in long-term studies of rats. Although fewer patients given pramipexole develop dopaminergic motor complications, patients given levodopa have a greater improvement in their early Parkinson’s disease. While both drugs cause an initial improvement, after two years the patients’ quality of life scores decline significantly less with levodopa.3

manufacturer provided additional useful information
References*†
Lieberman A, Ranhosky A, Korts D. Clinical evaluation of pramipexole in advanced Parkinson’s disease: results of a double-blind, placebo-controlled, parallel-group study. Neurology 1997;49:162-8.
Parkinson Study Group. Safety and efficacy of pramipexole in early Parkinson disease. JAMA 1997;278:125-30.
Parkinson Study Group. Pramipexole vs levodopa as initial treatment for Parkinson disease. A randomized controlled trial. JAMA 2000;284:1931-8.
Winkelman JW, Sethi KD, Kushida CA, Becker PM, Koester J, Cappola JJ, et al. Efficacy and safety of pramipexole in restless legs syndrome. Neurology 2006;67:1034-9.
Guttman M; International Pramipexole-Bromocriptine Study Group. Double-blind comparison of pramipexole and bromocriptine treatment with placebo in advanced Parkinson’s disease. Neurology 1997;49:1060-5.


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## CanadaGear (Dec 17, 2010)

This study makes me want ot try Prami myself. 

Munhoz RP, Fabiani G, Becker N, Teive HA.
Movement Disorders Unit, Neurology Service, Hospital de Clínicas, Federal University of Paraná, Curitiba, Brazil.

INTRODUCTION: Several recent reports have linked the use of dopamine agonists (DAs) to a variety of compulsive behaviors in patients with Parkinson's disease (PD). These inappropriate behaviors may include pathological gambling, compulsive shopping, and hypersexuality. AIM: To report the case of a patient with increased range of sexual behavior after use of pramipexole, a DA. METHODS: A 67-year-old man with a 7-year diagnosis of PD treated with levodopa and pramipexole presented with a dramatic change in sexual behavior after an increase in DA dose. *RESULTS: The patient, who historically was a very shy and conservative person, started to present increased frequency of sexual intercourse with his wife, during which he began speaking obscenities with an extreme preference for anal intercourse, preferences never requested before.* After pramipexole was withdrawn, complete remission was observed with return to his usual sexual behavior.

CONCLUSIONS: Hypersexuality and paraphilias are complications not uncommonly found in patients with PD under dopaminergic treatment. Further studies are needed for the understanding of this complex complication, and particularly the most prevalent relationship between pathological hypersexuality and use of DAs.


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## Glycomann (Dec 17, 2010)

CanadaGear said:


> I'm sure you would have, because you're so tough. A real man. CT, I think Glycomann wants your job.



It's not about tough.  Arguing with you is like arguing with a drunk. And yes I would ban you from any board I Mod on. You are a waste of white space and a danger to yourself.


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## hackskii (Dec 17, 2010)

Question?

Why so personal?

Guys, if one gives one's opionion on any thread why the fuss?

Why take it personal when some want answers to questions?

Do not many roads lead to the same place?

Why be defensive?

I mean if one is defensive then is said person defending one's ego or one's opinion?

If one is seeking an answer would one get said answer from emotion?

The internet debate is good.
Test theories.
Challenge the norm.
Ask questions.
But, if you don't like the answers, then why ask the question?

Being right or wrong means nothing.
Allowing yourself to absorb information and work from that is everything.
Growth?
A wise man listens.
A fool speaks his mind.

Who are you?


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## CanadaGear (Dec 17, 2010)

Glycomann said:


> It's not about tough. Arguing with you is like arguing with a drunk. And yes I would ban you from any board I Mod on. You are a waste of white space and a danger to yourself.


 
Thanks for that analysis. You're a very smart man. And very tough. Much tougher than me. O btw keep sucking moderator dick. One day you could earn a bottle of clen for your effort.


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## CanadaGear (Dec 17, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Question?
> 
> Why so personal?
> 
> ...


 
That's a great point. To answer your question. I respect other people's opinions and I don't take them personally. Opinions are there to be discussed and challenged. But when someone targets your character or abilities in a malicious manner naturally you want to defend yourself. Its better to just ignore them but at times emotions take the better half.


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## hackskii (Dec 17, 2010)

CanadaGear said:


> That's a great point. To answer your question. I respect other people's opinions and I don't take them personally. Opinions are there to be discussed and challenged. But when someone targets your character or abilities in a malicious manner naturally you want to defend yourself. Its better to just ignore them but at times emotions take the better half.


 
I agree to your comment and postition.
But, when it becomes personal the intillect becomes secondary.
Let me explain, if I insult you, then when I ask for your opinion it will become skewed to your defense.
If you do not respect my opinion then you wont respect my post even in light if it is a legitimate post with substance.

This is the problem.
If personal  reflects dialoge then dailoge becomes personal.....agreed.
If I support a position, then I must give the facts to support my position.
If my position is flawed then I am suspect to ridicule and scrutiny.
If my position is sound then no need to defend.
If my position is not sound then my position is that of rocky ground.

I hate prami myself, yet others like it and acnowledge the benefits then who am I to say otherwise?

To me, if someone agrees then cool, if not then cool, both can be right and both can be wrong.
Why fuss?
Why take said arguement or debate to heart?
If I am an observer and listen, would I not be better listening even when both parties are wrong to some extent?
Does this not make me a better listener?
A better observer?
A better person to know what is going on from hearing both sides of said arguement?

Being married teaches me to allow myself to be wrong knowing I am right.
But for me to force the issue allows me to limit my resources.

State your case.
Defend your position.
If your hand (cards) support, all is good, if your hand does not support then you fold.

In all it is learning.

Open your mind and listen, all people will allow you to learn something new.
If you let your ego dictate, you lose.

Not saying anyones ego allows anyone to lose, just saying.

Take a deep breath.
Breathe....

I love you guys, I actually love this board, not sure why actually but I do.

Cheers and happy Friday.....................Wife just gave me a dirty look for burping...............lol


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Dec 17, 2010)

CanadaGear said:


> Yes, seriously. The study CT has posted used patiends with RLS. That's fine. I know you want to see studies done on guys using test, npp and letro



No, I would just prefer studies done with guys who don't have autoimmune disorders. And I think RLS is a lot milder than Parkinson's. 

I actually have had chronic RLS my whole life.


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## CanadaGear (Dec 17, 2010)

chronicelite said:


> No, I would just prefer studies done with guys who don't have autoimmune disorders. And I think RLS is a lot milder than Parkinson's.
> 
> I actually have had chronic RLS my whole life.


 
Sure, it probably is but you have to keep in mind that Pharmaceutical companies are more intersted in conducting studies on test subjects that the drugs are intended for. So in this case the test groups are more likely to consist of patients with PD, RLS, depression and related conditions.


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## heavyiron (Dec 17, 2010)

All drugs have some side effects listed on them. You can make a case against aspirin with lists of side effects but at the end of the day until you try the med you are only relying on the possibility of sides that may never present. 

I had some sleep disorders on Prami and a whole host of positive effects. It was a hard drug to dial in the dose because big changes seemed to produce more sleep issues but honestly it's not a harsh drug for me.


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## hackskii (Dec 18, 2010)

chronicelite said:


> No, I would just prefer studies done with guys who don't have autoimmune disorders. And I think RLS is a lot milder than Parkinson's.
> 
> I actually have had chronic RLS my whole life.


 
Old folkloure medicine suggests you try putting a bar of soap under your sheets at night when you go to bed.
Nobody knows why this works for some, it just does, give it a shot.


Problem with studies especially medications for the mind is simple, placebo seems to work just as well with the meds as with the placebo, they dont know why but drugs dont necessarily offer better alternitives than placebo.

I am a firm believer in relaxation therapy, breathing therapy, and taking a moment every day to just say thanks.
It helps alot, and the moment you take out all the trash that pollutes your mind with random thoughts, the moment of clearity begins, problem solving becomes easier, and a sense of well being happens.
Its not easy, but when you find the way to achieve this, it is a very good thing.

Ever notice a person that is excited, or has anxiety?
He/she's breathing is irratic, kaotic, once you slow down the breathing and breathe, you relax.
Question?
Is the person that has kaotic breathing causing the anxiety, or is the anxiety causing the irratic breathing?

Hope I dont get flammed for my distorted view on things.....lol


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Dec 18, 2010)

I respect that post bro. Too bad I already repped another post of yours


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## XYZ (Dec 20, 2010)

CanadaGear - Just drop it, who really cares anymore?


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## CanadaGear (Dec 20, 2010)

CT said:


> CanadaGear - Just drop it, who really cares anymore?



Alright.


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## malfeasance (Sep 1, 2011)

heavyiron said:


> Prami is actually a pretty awesome drug. It reduces the refractory period between male orgasms. Some guys report orgasms and they continue having sex with another orgasm again within minutes.


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## Hench (Sep 2, 2011)

lol @ this entire thread. It should be a sticky.

Also, XYZ??? What's up with that?


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## josefamomad (Sep 2, 2011)

take some yasmine pills brah


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## pieguy (Sep 3, 2011)

Is xyz ct's new name? Kinda lost here.


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