# Shanghai Students Are the World's Best; U.S. Doesn't Crack the Top 15



## LAM (Dec 14, 2010)

This week, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development released its triennial report assessing the relative performance of high school students around the world. The report, known as PISA (the Program for International Student Assessment), measured students' scores on standardized tests for reading, science, and math in 65 countries, with some regions included as well. Shanghai, the largest city in China, topped all three lists, while the United States came in at 17th, 23rd, and 31st place, respectively. The report has raised a number of questions about what, if anything, American schools should be doing differently, and how seriously the nation's educators should take these findings.


    *

      Results Are Stunning  The New York Times quotes a number of gobsmacked education officials. "I'm kind of stunned, I'm thinking Sputnik," said Chester Finn Jr., a former Assistant Secretary of Education. "I've seen how relentless the Chinese are at accomplishing goals, and if they can do this in Shanghai in 2009, they can do it in 10 cities in 2019, and in 50 cities by 2029." Mark Schneider, a member of the Department of Education under George W. Bush, said that "the real significance of these results is that they refute the commonly held hypothesis that China just produces rote learning ... Large fractions of these students demonstrate their ability to extrapolate from what they know and apply their knowledge very creatively in novel situations."

    *

      'A Challenge'  The Times also quotes Arne Duncan, Secretary of Education for the Obama administration, who says: "We have to see this as a wake-up call ... I know skeptics will want to argue with the results, but we consider them to be accurate and reliable, and we have to see them as a challenge to get better." Duncan added that "we can quibble, or we can face the brutal truth that we're being out-educated."

    *

      Don't Expect America to Meet That Challenge, Though  At 24/7 Wall St., Douglas McIntyre strikes a distinctly fatalist note:

    There are lessons in the research for the US, although those lessons are old and have not been heeded much. There is no national measurement scale to show how student performance varies from district to district. There is little evidence that weak students are put together with strong teachers. The use of Facebook and smartphones take up much of the time of high school students. Reading is hardly a priority ... There are many reasons and much evidence that America will continue to fail to produce an environment and programs to make student skills 'world class.' The problem is bemoaned and criticized in many quarters. Nothing concrete, however, is done about it.

    *

      China's Approach Is What Gives it the Edge  Richard Garner at British publication The Independent writes that "Shanghai did not become successful by throwing money at its education system... The secret to its success, as revealed in the report, is that it manages to combine putting emphasis on stretching its brightest pupils to targeting help for those struggling to read or add. By contrast, much of the emphasis in the UK has been about targeting resources at the most disadvantaged students."

    *

      What Will America's Policy Response Be? wonders David Rothkopf at Foreign Policy. "President Obama called this a 'Sputnik moment' arguing that the quality of education will be decisive in determining which countries surge ahead and which fall behind in the current era," writes Rothkopf. "He is clearly right. And no doubt rather than rallying to his side and recognizing that we are desperate need of a bipartisan push to restore excellence to America's schools and at least give our kids a fighting chance in an increasingly competitive global economy, the 'new exceptionalists' will no doubt seek to gain political advantage instead." How? "They will cast the president as an America-skeptic, try to present his realism as anti-Americanism, and... they will sacrifice America's children rather than giving the president a 'victory' on education reform."

    *

      Oh, Please, scoffs Allahpundit at Hot Air: "Hey, who's up for a little civilizational-decline anxiety on a slow Tuesday news night?" Allahpundit points out that "the Chinese could be gaming them by letting gifted migrant students reside in the city instead of going home and by motivating them to study with nationalist appeals about how important the results would be to China's international standing." He notices that "the spread between Shanghai and the second-place country in each category is conspicuously larger than it is between second place and third place and so on, so there is reason to be at least a bit suspicious."

    *

      Let's Poke at These Numbers a Bit, says The Atlantic's James Fallows. "As with just about everything concerning modern China, the results should be taken seriously... But as with just about everything concerning modern China, the results should also be viewed with some distance and possible skepticism." Fallows quotes an unidentified scientist at length who lists a number of ways in which the PISA data doesn't answer key questions, and offers the following takeaway: "Pay attention, and assume that the general pattern shown here is right and significant... But don't take this too literally as the next sign of Inevitable 'Chinese Professor' Dominance."


Sources

    * A Nation of Idiots Douglas McIntyre, 24/7 Wall St.
    * Test Scores Stun Educators Sam Dillon, The New York Times
    * Great News: Shangahi Teens Destroy U.S. Allahpundit, Hot Air
    * American Averagism David Rothkopf, Foreign Policy
    * On Those 'Stunning' Scores James Fallows, The Atlantic
    * Culture of Hard Work Richard Garner, The Independent

Shanghai Students Are the World's Best; U.S. Doesn't Crack the Top 15 | The Atlantic Wire


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 14, 2010)

As someone who has been educated in both systems , I still think American education, though dismal at teaching the basics, fosters more independant thinking and creative "out of the box" mentality.  Although, in this day and age of high tech, high complex science , you better get the basics down before embarking on further inroads into quantum technology, molecular biology  etc.  

What's interesting is that in medicine, more foreigners are now department heads ( you have to have strong reasearch backgrounds as well as clinical) , many of whom are products of early strong science and math education in native countries who later benefitted from the American innovative post graduate atmosphere.

In Taiwan or Japan, if I questioned a teacher it was "disrespectful", here it is encouraged.


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## bio-chem (Dec 14, 2010)

bandaidwoman said:


> What's interesting is that in medicine, more foreigners are now department heads .



Im sure many of those department heads you call 'foreigners' consider themselves American the same way I do.


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## fufu (Dec 14, 2010)

One of the biggest downfalls in the USA education system is that there is no clear explanation of how the scientific method functions...nor is there any discussion of the values of skepticism and informed opinion. 

We have several "science classes", but you'd be surprised how many people cannot define what science is.


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## bio-chem (Dec 14, 2010)

fufu said:


> One of the biggest downfalls in the USA education system is that there is no clear explanation of how the scientific method functions...nor is there any discussion of the values of skepticism and informed opinion.
> 
> We have several "science classes", but you'd be surprised how many people cannot define what science is.



Science can't even define itself right now. It pisses me off the problems we have developed in modern science right now. ill leave before i jump too fully upon my soap box


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 14, 2010)

fufu said:


> One of the biggest downfalls in the USA education system is that there is no clear explanation of how the scientific method functions...nor is there any discussion of the values of skepticism and informed opinion.
> 
> We have several "science classes", but you'd be surprised how many people cannot define what science is.



I blame the english language which uses "laws", " theory"  " fact"  etc. differently in the field of science than in the rest of the english language. 

Honestly, when I learned english these scientific terms in english confused the hell out of me.

Look at how scientific "theory"  has been hijacked by creationists.  It is not "unproven" ideas, it is a well evidenced exposition of natural phenomenon.  In fact, there is more experimental proof for evolution than the current gravitational theory. People think a scientific "law" is a rule that cannot be broken. For example, the second law of thermodynamics  is a  law but there are many instances of "breaking" it. Look at snowflakes, thanks to non linear dynamics and complexity theory. 

That's a starter





.


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## min0 lee (Dec 14, 2010)

bandaidwoman said:


> I blame the english language which uses "laws", " theory"  " fact"  etc. differently in the field of science than in the rest of the english language.
> 
> Honestly, when I learned english these scientific terms in english confused the hell out of me.
> 
> ...


Get religion out of science and there will be less road blocks.


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## bio-chem (Dec 14, 2010)

min0 lee said:


> Get religion out of science and there will be less road blocks.



I've never understood why the animosity people bring to this subject? one is for universities the other for churches. they are not mutually exclusive. one does not prove nor disprove the other. we are learning new things about our world and space around us everyday, and we definitely don't have a perfect understanding of God. It is our lack of understanding and ignorance of both that lead to confusion.


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## fufu (Dec 14, 2010)

bandaidwoman said:


> I blame the english language which uses "laws", " theory"  " fact"  etc. differently in the field of science than in the rest of the english language.
> 
> Honestly, when I learned english these scientific terms in english confused the hell out of me.
> 
> ...



I agree. Science is not meant to be a dogma. It is simply a gathering of evidence based information that develops the "best idea" of what occurs in nature. We never truly "know", but science is a compass that directs us to good ideas, and then to better ideas.


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## min0 lee (Dec 14, 2010)

Stem cell research, are they not against it?


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## Jdobbs91 (Dec 14, 2010)

lol


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## Curt James (Dec 14, 2010)

LAM said:


> "I'm kind of stunned, I'm thinking Sputnik," said Chester Finn Jr., a former Assistant Secretary of Education. (snip)
> 
> Shanghai Students Are the World's Best; U.S. Doesn't Crack the Top 15 | The Atlantic Wire



Finn shouldn't be surprised. 

Dramatic change needs to take place.






YouTube Video


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## Big Smoothy (Dec 14, 2010)

From the OP Article:


> Results Are Stunning The New York Times quotes a number of gobsmacked education officials. "I'm kind of stunned, I'm thinking Sputnik,"



If anyone is stunned then they have been asleep.

This is no surprise.

As someone who is living and teaching children, high school, Uni students, and business people in East Asia, I notice the massive difference in.

_motivation
valuing education_

compared to the US.

If any policy makers are surprised it's because obviously, they have not been paying attention.  

Honestly, I find this very common in the US, when it comes to just about everything.


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## Big Smoothy (Dec 14, 2010)

Excuse my LAM for slightly digressing from your OP, but here is more evidence that reinforces Curt's "Changing Paradigms."


> World's 5 biggest airlines now from Asia, LatAm
> Email this Story
> 
> Dec 14, 7:22 AM (ET)
> ...



Entire: My Way News - World's 5 biggest airlines now from Asia, LatAm


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## bio-chem (Dec 14, 2010)

min0 lee said:


> Stem cell research, are they not against it?



I don't know who you mean by "they" but i think my record is pretty well known and I'm for it.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 15, 2010)

fufu said:


> I agree. Science is not meant to be a *dogma*. It is simply a gathering of evidence based information that develops the "best idea" of what occurs in nature. We never truly "know", but science is a compass that directs us to good ideas, and then to better ideas.



therein lies the biggest difference between science and religion that if people just keep apart would be fine as biochem stated.  One is intrinsically dogmatic the other isn't. 

Science is never dogmatic,understanding of the basic underlying universe changes drastically ( not without kiccking and screaming but it changes nevertheless as the scientific method wins over preconceptions...look at quantum physics and how it shook up einstein's and many scientist's  core belief system.) Religion is almost always dogmatic, Mohammed is a prophet, there is only one god, only through Jesus can we be saved etc.   ( why not multiple gods as quantum physics shows us there are multiple realities?).  Certain sects of hinduism and buddism are not as dogmatic but they are not the majority.


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## KelJu (Dec 15, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> I've never understood why the animosity people bring to this subject? one is for universities the other for churches. they are not mutually exclusive. one does not prove nor disprove the other. we are learning new things about our world and space around us everyday, and we definitely don't have a perfect understanding of God. It is our lack of understanding and ignorance of both that lead to confusion.



So, you don't understand why science minded people have animosity towards jerks interfering with their scientific progress? Right. 


Lets see. How about creationist trying to push to have fantasy land mumbo jumbo taught in legitimate science classes. How about the incessant bitching and complaining about how scientist are playing god. How about religious tards legislating laws, and pushing for regulations to shutdown stem-cell research. 

I don't try to dissect frogs in your Sunday school class, keep your fucking religion out of our classrooms and science labs.


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## bio-chem (Dec 15, 2010)

KelJu said:


> So, you don't understand why science minded people have animosity towards jerks interfering with their scientific progress? Right.
> 
> 
> Lets see. How about creationist trying to push to have fantasy land mumbo jumbo taught in legitimate science classes. How about the incessant bitching and complaining about how scientist are playing god. How about religious tards legislating laws, and pushing for regulations to shutdown stem-cell research.
> ...



As an individual scientifically trained, and who goes to church on Sundays i can say this. fuck you. it goes both ways, you know that, and you know that was the point i was trying to make. each has their place, and they compliment each other much more than either side is capable of realizing because both sides have thrown up walls due to the fact they don't properly understand the other. so come down off your mountain there kelju and understand what I'm saying before you get your cross dressing panties in a bunch


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## GearsMcGilf (Dec 15, 2010)

bandaidwoman said:


> In Taiwan or Japan, if I questioned a teacher it was "disrespectful", here it is encouraged.


 
I noticed this when teaching in China last year. I couldn't get the students to speak in class, much less actually disagree with me, even when I practically begged them to. I got the impression that they weren't getting much more out of their education that rote learning.  However, they somehow were led to believe that cheating right under the teacher's nose wasn't disrespectful and seemed shocked when I'd yank a quiz or exam off of their desk and rip it up when they attepmted to swap papers with another student. Their excuse was that it was supposed to be flattering for the teacher when they went to such lengths to do well in the class. I found them overall, to be extremely disrespectful and their manners in class were appalling. These kids were 20+ years old and behaved like 7th or 8th graders.


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## bio-chem (Dec 15, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> I noticed this when teaching in China last year. I couldn't get the students to speak in class, much less actually disagree with me, even when I practically begged them to. I got the impression that they weren't getting much more out of their education that rote learning.  However, they somehow were led to believe that cheating right under the teacher's nose wasn't disrespectful and seemed shocked when I'd yank a quiz or exam off of their desk and rip it up when they attepmted to swap papers with another student. Their excuse was that it was supposed to be flattering for the teacher when they went to such lengths to do well in the class. I found them overall, to be extremely disrespectful and their manners in class were appalling. These kids were 20+ years old and behaved like 7th or 8th graders.



Isn't it interesting what some cultures will emphasize over others, or what will be considered acceptable or rude? Honestly I prefer the fact that we reward critical thinking, or questioning a teacher. I'm sure I allow my biases to enter into this topic, but now that I work in industry I can accept the need for employees to exhibit this behavior. memorization of rote is a part of learning, but can only go so far in preparing an individual for the job environment.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 15, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> I noticed this when teaching in China last year. I couldn't get the students to speak in class, much less actually disagree with me, even when I practically begged them to. I got the impression that they weren't getting much more out of their education that rote learning.  However, they somehow were led to believe that cheating right under the teacher's nose wasn't disrespectful and seemed shocked when I'd yank a quiz or exam off of their desk and rip it up when they attepmted to swap papers with another student. Their excuse was that it was supposed to be flattering for the teacher when they went to such lengths to do well in the class. I found them overall, to be extremely disrespectful and their manners in class were appalling. These kids were 20+ years old and behaved like 7th or 8th graders.



I hate to say this but I think they are disrespectul because you are a whitey american.... with that said if we cheated they beat the hell out of us to the point of criminal abuse..... but things may have changed since I was a teenager.


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## bio-chem (Dec 15, 2010)

bandaidwoman said:


> I hate to say this but I think they are disrespectul because you are a whitey american....* with that said if we cheated they beat the hell out of us to the point of criminal abuse.*.... but things may have changed since I was a teenager.



maybe we can learn something from the crazy chinese?


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## KelJu (Dec 15, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> As an individual scientifically trained, and who goes to church on Sundays i can say this. fuck you. it goes both ways, you know that, and you know that was the point i was trying to make. each has their place, and they compliment each other much more than either side is capable of realizing because both sides have thrown up walls due to the fact they don't properly understand the other. so come down off your mountain there kelju and understand what I'm saying before you get your cross dressing panties in a bunch



So what. I am a scientifically minded person who was raised Baptist. That doesn't make me an expert on creationism. As a matter of fact, it doesn't even belong in the same conversation. You can't take the moral high ground on this. What you said was retarded. 

How can you honestly say that you don't understand where the animosity comes from? Scientist have devoted their lives to their research, and all of a sudden out from right field comes religious retards who know nothing of the science telling them what they can and can't do in a lab. Then add to that how conservative republicans slashed science funding to scientist who who doing cutting edge research which drove much of that technology over seas. 

And still we have to have this god damn intelligent design argument every so many years. Do you think intelligent design should be taught in a class dedicated to science? My panties aren't in a wad, you are being a tard.


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## bio-chem (Dec 15, 2010)

KelJu said:


> So what. I am a scientifically minded person who was raised Baptist. That doesn't make me an expert on creationism. As a matter of fact, it doesn't even belong in the same conversation. You can't take the moral high ground on this. What you said was retarded.
> 
> How can you honestly say that you don't understand where the animosity comes from? Scientist have devoted their lives to their research, and all of a sudden out from right field comes religious retards who know nothing of the science telling them what they can and can't do in a lab. Then add to that how conservative republicans slashed science funding to scientist who who doing cutting edge research which drove much of that technology over seas.
> 
> And still we have to have this god damn intelligent design argument every so many years. Do you think intelligent design should be taught in a class dedicated to science? My panties aren't in a wad, you are being a tard.


No I don't think intelligent design should be taught in a classroom. God in Churches, science in classrooms. I've already said that. I also don't think those in science who don't believe in God should spend their time preaching against God. Something I've been the witness of on many occasions. I can't count how many times an atheist scientist will be the first to bring up God. As if somehow science can disprove God  both sides are in the wrong on this. Biggest problem in science right now is scientists let their current biases color their science. defeating the purpose of science to begin with.

you are only seeing this from one angle right now Kelju. your experiences with religion are well known, and i can see why you believe the way you do. but this is a Jew/Muslim type issue. both sides are in the wrong in many points and without recognizing that more walls are thrown up and less effective discussion is the result. Thinking that one side is completely in the right and the other wholly wrong shows why there is so much animosity when there doesn't need to be


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## GearsMcGilf (Dec 15, 2010)

bandaidwoman said:


> I hate to say this but I think they are disrespectul because you are a whitey american.... with that said if we cheated they beat the hell out of us to the point of criminal abuse..... but things may have changed since I was a teenager.


I felt like beating the shit out of some of them also.  These were 2nd and 3rd level students.  These were the kids that didn't make the scores to get into a 1st level school like Jilin University, but their parents had $.  There were up to 150 students in the classes and the ones who sat toward to back generally couldn't understand WTF I was saying cause they cheated their way thru english class.


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## bio-chem (Dec 15, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> I felt like beating the shit out of some of them also.  These were 2nd and 3rd level students.  These were the kids that didn't make the scores to get into a 1st level school like Jilin University, but their parents had $.  There were up to 150 students in the classes and the ones who sat toward to back generally couldn't understand WTF I was saying cause they cheated their way thru english class.



looks like china has the same problems as the US with its students


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## MDR (Dec 15, 2010)

bandaidwoman said:


> I hate to say this but I think they are disrespectul because you are a whitey american.... with that said if we cheated they beat the hell out of us to the point of criminal abuse..... but things may have changed since I was a teenager.



I think one of the biggest problems with the American educational system is the teachers are operating without a net.  A student can act out a disrupt class to no end, yet there is often no functional system in place to deal with the problem.  Teachers are not allowed to discipline students, and the administrators don't want to deal with the problem.  So students learn pretty quickly they can get away with most anything.  I'm not suggesting beatings by any means, but there must be some system of accountability in place to deal with problem students.  We have taken control of the classroom away from the teacher, and the kids know it.  Now the government wants to pay teachers according to student performance on state and federally mandated standardized testing.  The whole system is broken, and many of the best teachers are being driven out of the classroom because of the ineptitude of those making the decisions.  The saddest thing is that students who want to learn are not allowed to do so because of the endless distractions of those who have no interest in being there.


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## irish_2003 (Dec 15, 2010)

it's because all these new teachers keep trying to reinvent the wheel......we need to go back to repetition and old tactics......drill, drill, drill.....


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## LAM (Dec 15, 2010)

The US has already fallen behind economically to China in terms of real GDP growth now with greater decreases in education nationwide.

msnbc.com Video Player

China is investing Trillions of dollars in education while the US is slashing it from the University level on down.

China's foreign trade and economic growth in empirical research - New Economics Papers - Papers Download Center


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## maniclion (Dec 15, 2010)

bandaidwoman said:


> As someone who has been educated in both systems , I still think American education, though dismal at teaching the basics, fosters more independant thinking and creative "out of the box" mentality.  Although, in this day and age of high tech, high complex science , you better get the basics down before embarking on further inroads into quantum technology, molecular biology  etc.
> 
> What's interesting is that in medicine, more foreigners are now department heads ( you have to have strong reasearch backgrounds as well as clinical) , many of whom are products of early strong science and math education in native countries who later benefitted from the American innovative post graduate atmosphere.
> 
> In Taiwan or Japan, if I questioned a teacher it was "disrespectful", here it is encouraged.



You can only think so far out of the box without a good grasp of the basic fundamentals...At some point the person in China with a great hold on the basics only has to think a little out of the box to meet the same point an American without a box full of basics gets after crossing all that empty space inside the box.....


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 15, 2010)

maniclion said:


> You can only think so far out of the box without a good grasp of the basic fundamentals...At some point the person in China with a great hold on the basics only has to think a little out of the box to meet the same point an American without a box full of basics gets after crossing all that empty space inside the box.....



Very true, especially as science becomes more and more complex.  My stint as a chemist taught me how grateful I was to have mastered and learned the basics  taught back in Asia ( calculus for thermodynamics, etc. early as a high school student) which made my college and post grad easier than most americans.


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## GearsMcGilf (Dec 15, 2010)

There's no question education in the USA has been dumbed down a lot in the last several decades for a number of reasons.  Interesting stuff.  We all might as well start learning Mandarin Chinese so we can great the PLA when they arrive to collect on their debt.  

Dumbing Down Our Schools (washingtonpost.com)


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## bio-chem (Dec 15, 2010)

maniclion said:


> You can only think so far out of the box without a good grasp of the basic fundamentals...At some point the person in China with a great hold on the basics only has to think a little out of the box to meet the same point an American without a box full of basics gets after crossing all that empty space inside the box.....



I feel pretty confident in the box full of basics I was given in our educational system. It's there for those who want to benefit from it


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## irish_2003 (Dec 15, 2010)

i'd rather start breeding with asian chics than other choices


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## LAM (Dec 15, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> There's no question education in the USA has been dumbed down a lot in the last several decades for a number of reasons.  Interesting stuff.  We all might as well start learning Mandarin Chinese so we can great the PLA when they arrive to collect on their debt.
> 
> Dumbing Down Our Schools (washingtonpost.com)



I know you have voiced your opinion about the fed gov getting involved in nutrition etc. but that topic also directly ties into this problem.  there is tons of medical study out there that shows how the diet effects learning.


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## GearsMcGilf (Dec 15, 2010)

No doubt.  I didn't mean that I think they should be feeding kids tater tots and pork chops in school.  There should be some nutritional standards.  When my older son stayed in a military day care all summer in Beijing once, they were feeding them seafood and fruit/veggies, a helluva lot better than the garbage they serve in most public schools here.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 15, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> There's no question education in the USA has been dumbed down a lot in the last several decades for a number of reasons.  Interesting stuff.  *We all might as well start learning Mandarin Chinese so we can great the PLA when they arrive to collect on their debt.
> *
> Dumbing Down Our Schools (washingtonpost.com)



My daughter's private school already teaches mandarin and spanish starting at pre k.  I donated a mega load of money so that they would bring the mandarin curriculum on board.  ALl the top private schools in atlanta, westminster, lovett, etc, it is a core curriculum.  In adddition, studies show learning chinese enhances science and math abilities.....


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## KelJu (Dec 15, 2010)

MDR said:


> I think one of the biggest problems with the American educational system is the teachers are operating without a net.  A student can act out a disrupt class to no end, yet there is often no functional system in place to deal with the problem.  Teachers are not allowed to discipline students, and the administrators don't want to deal with the problem.  So students learn pretty quickly they can get away with most anything.  I'm not suggesting beatings by any means, but there must be some system of accountability in place to deal with problem students.  We have taken control of the classroom away from the teacher, and the kids know it.  Now the government wants to pay teachers according to student performance on state and federally mandated standardized testing.  The whole system is broken, and many of the best teachers are being driven out of the classroom because of the ineptitude of those making the decisions.  The saddest thing is that students who want to learn are not allowed to do so because of the endless distractions of those who have no interest in being there.





My favorite teachers in high school who I learned the most from beat me like a red headed step child. Saying that I had behavior problems is an understatement. But, I never took beatings personally, because I knew that I always deserved what I got. I would be terrified to have to teach a younger version of myself without the being able to beat the shit out of him.


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## min0 lee (Dec 15, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> No doubt.  I didn't mean that I think they should be feeding kids tater tots and pork chops in school.  There should be some nutritional standards.  When my older son stayed in a military day care all summer in Beijing once, they were feeding them seafood and fruit/veggies, a helluva lot better than the garbage they serve in most public schools here.



I know a few other countries that serve real food for lunch..

Your a teacher? How long were you overseas?


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## Curt James (Dec 15, 2010)

MDR said:


> I think one of the biggest problems with the American educational system is the teachers are operating without a net.  *A student can act out a disrupt class to no end, yet there is often no functional system in place to deal with the problem.  Teachers are not allowed to discipline students*, and the administrators don't want to deal with the problem.  So *students learn pretty quickly they can get away with most anything.  *I'm not suggesting beatings by any means, but there must be some system of accountability in place to deal with problem students.  We have taken control of the classroom away from the teacher, and the kids know it.  Now the government wants to pay teachers according to student performance on state and federally mandated standardized testing.  The whole system is broken, and many of the best teachers are being driven out of the classroom because of the ineptitude of those making the decisions.  *The saddest thing is that students who want to learn are not allowed to do so because of the endless distractions of those who have no interest in being there.*



It's aggravating at best.



KelJu said:


> My favorite teachers in high school who I learned  the most from beat me like a red headed step child. Saying that I had  behavior problems is an understatement. But, I never took beatings  personally, because I knew that I always deserved what I got. *I would be  terrified to have to teach a younger version of myself without the  being able to beat the shit out of him.*



I won't comment on paddling other than to say that my 4th grade teacher, Mrs. Marion Lawrence, had a Ritalin substitute in the form of a board! She knew how to make us focus on our studies more than cutting up. No doubt! lol


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## Big Smoothy (Dec 15, 2010)

LAM said:


> The US has already fallen behind economically to China in terms of real GDP growth now with greater decreases in education nationwide.



And more telling than China being #1 (Shanghai) is that the US did not crack the top 15.


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## maniclion (Dec 15, 2010)

KelJu said:


> My favorite teachers in high school who I learned the most from beat me like a red headed step child. Saying that I had behavior problems is an understatement. But, I never took beatings personally, because I knew that I always deserved what I got. I would be terrified to have to teach a younger version of myself without the being able to beat the shit out of him.


I never had a teacher touch me, that was all for my father to do when he got home from work, it's a parents responsibility to make sure their kids are going to behave from the moment they walk out of the house to the moment they walk back in that afternoon.  Believe me my brother and I were some of the most well behaved children when around "snitches" aka adults who knew my parents or at least how to contact them....I still managed to be a class clown I just kept it to all the right times, never distracting and always made the teachers laugh too....Not sure why I was voted 'Most likely to be found locked up in a Peruvian Prison in 15 years' in the Senior Yearbook......


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## KelJu (Dec 15, 2010)

Curt James said:


> It's aggravating at best.
> 
> 
> 
> I won't comment on paddling other than to say that my 4th grade teacher, Mrs. Marion Lawrence, had a Ritalin substitute in the form of a board! She knew how to make us focus on our studies more than cutting up. No doubt! lol




I wish people would understand that to reach a kid, you have to administer compassion and discipline wisely. Too much or little little of either can ruin a kid. I had teachers that were grade A bitches, and I rebelled hard against them. I also had an unusually intelligent group of classmates. We were psychological terrorist. We made teachers cry, quit, and even bated a few into doing something stupid enough to get fired over. 

It was the teachers who showed genuine interest in us that we got along with. Some would beat us weekly. I say beat, because these people weren't fucking around. They made grown boys tear up. There was none of that "two licks for you young" man type of stuff. But after the discipline, your ego mended, and it was back to learning history with a few jokes mixed in.


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## KelJu (Dec 15, 2010)

maniclion said:


> I never had a teacher touch me, that was all for my father to do when he got home from work, it's a parents responsibility to make sure their kids are going to behave from the moment they walk out of the house to the moment they walk back in that afternoon.  Believe me my brother and I were some of the most well behaved children when around "snitches" aka adults who knew my parents or at least how to contact them....I still managed to be a class clown I just kept it to all the right times, never distracting and always made the teachers laugh too....Not sure why I was voted 'Most likely to be found locked up in a Peruvian Prison in 15 years' in the Senior Yearbook......



Meh, everyone isn't the same. Could you imagine a miniature hyper KelJu with even less impulse control than I have now combined with all the natural hormones puberty can offer? I was a hybrid between the shy quite kid and a raving fucking lunatic. When something triggered me, there was nothing that would scare me into submission other than my fear of losing the approval of someone I respected. 

I am sure there are a lot of kids who are just like I was. All it took to get my respect was to be a true person. Bullshitting a kid just makes them distrust you. Once they lose their respect for you, the game is over.


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## MDR (Dec 15, 2010)

KelJu said:


> Meh, everyone isn't the same. Could you imagine a miniature hyper KelJu with even less impulse control than I have now combined with all the natural hormones puberty can offer? I was a hybrid between the shy quite kid and a raving fucking lunatic. When something triggered me, there was nothing that would scare me into submission other than my fear of losing the approval of someone I respected.
> 
> I am sure there are a lot of kids who are just like I was. All it took to get my respect was to be a true person. Bullshitting a kid just makes them distrust you. Once they lose their respect for you, the game is over.



I do think you make a good point.  You have to be honest and respectful with students, or as a teacher you have no chance.  Being a "true person" is a must, but even then sometimes with no boundaries set by the school itself, and no consequences in place, students will take advantage because they can.  Most likely due to the fact that they are just bringing learned behavior from home into the classroom


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## maniclion (Dec 15, 2010)

KelJu said:


> Meh, everyone isn't the same. Could you imagine a miniature hyper KelJu with even less impulse control than I have now combined with all the natural hormones puberty can offer? I was a hybrid between the shy quite kid and a raving fucking lunatic. When something triggered me, there was nothing that would scare me into submission other than my fear of losing the approval of someone I respected.
> 
> I am sure there are a lot of kids who are just like I was. All it took to get my respect was to be a true person. Bullshitting a kid just makes them distrust you. Once they lose their respect for you, the game is over.


I was the kid who usually disarmed conflicts or disruptions in class with my own humor, even if their was a coup between all the students and a teacher I would usually be the one to have them all laughing and forget what they were all getting upset about, but then I've always been that way because my parents used to fight and I was not able to quell their conflicts and they divorced....

I remember one time our US Gov. & Econ. teacher was getting into a political argument with most of the class and they were yelling, getting close to death threats while I was trying to sleep so I jumped up and yelled "If this is going to be that kind of party, I'm gonna stick my dick in the mashed potata's" then laid my head back down, ( I'd been listening to Ill Communication on my way to school) It just caught them all off guard enough to settle down the seriousness....


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