# 1-ad,4-ad Or 1-test What Stacks Are Best



## Molehonea (May 21, 2003)

I am wanting to take a very good stack to help me get ripped.  Should I take a stacIk having 1-AD, 4AD, 1-TEST OR COMBNATION?


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## gopro (May 22, 2003)

Go with either the 1-AD or 1-Test. I wouldn't go with the 4-AD when trying to cut.


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## Molehonea (May 23, 2003)

Thanks,

Do you sugest any stacks


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## Robboe (May 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Go with either the 1-AD or 1-Test. I wouldn't go with the 4-AD when trying to cut.




I can see why you say this, but a lot of users do report a drop in bodyfat using a combo of 1-testosterone and 4-diol despite using higher than maintenance calories.


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## gopro (May 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I can see why you say this, but a lot of users do report a drop in bodyfat using a combo of 1-testosterone and 4-diol despite using higher than maintenance calories.



I agree...some do, but some don't as well. I'd rather go with a product like VPXs EQ in combination with 1-Test...or similar product with similar ingredient. I have witnessed that combo get really awesome results.

I think I have seen the MOST variation in results with the use of 4-AD than any other prohormone.


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## Molehonea (May 23, 2003)

do you mean Liposomal EQ?


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## Molehonea (May 23, 2003)

Any other products do you suggest?


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## gopro (May 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Molehonea *_
> do you mean Liposomal EQ?



Yes I do.

As far as other products...do you mean other prohormones or other products in general?


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## Molehonea (May 23, 2003)

Yes,

Do I need to do 1-test and EQ?


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## gopro (May 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Molehonea *_
> Yes,
> 
> Do I need to do 1-test and EQ?



No, you don't have to do both. 1-Test and 1-AD work very nicely on their own. I just mentioned adding EQ if you were planning to stack two PHs together. Obviously, that would increase results, but it will also increase the price and any possible side effects (although those are usually few and far between).


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## Twin Peak (May 23, 2003)

Check out the "Lean Stack" 1fast400 offers.  It is 1-Test, and 1, 4 Andro.

Neither cause water retention like 4-diol does, though 1T and 4-diol is a great stack.


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## Molehonea (May 26, 2003)

This is no longer avaible?? anyhting else


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## gopro (May 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Molehonea *_
> This is no longer avaible?? anyhting else



Yes...what I told you to take


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## bigswole30 (May 27, 2003)

VPX 1-test and EQ gets two thumbs up from me. The lean stack should be available from 1-fast. If not 1-test transdermal from 1 fast or BDC along with 1,4 ad in capsule form. It has a high oral bioavailabilty so it is fine in capsule.


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## Twin Peak (May 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> 1-test transdermal from 1 fast or BDC along with 1,4 ad in capsule form. It has a high oral bioavailabilty so it is fine in capsule.



IMO, this would be a very good stack for leaning out.  I am currently running a similar stack, except the 1, 4 is also transdermal.  I don't think with 1, 4 you would lose any efficacy to go oral however, as you certainly would with other prohormones. 

(Note: Edited this post because I am not trying to get into a silly pissing contest, just stating the facts, and where appropriate, opinion.)


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## gopro (May 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> VPX 1-test and EQ gets two thumbs up from me.



I agree with this 100%


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## Molehonea (May 28, 2003)

Which one would be best the lean stack, it is avaible for $130, or other products from VPX sports?


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## kuso (May 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Molehonea *_
> This is no longer avaible?? anyhting else




http://www.1fast400.com/store/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=18&products_id=654


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## Molehonea (May 28, 2003)

I found the lean stack but is VPX better?


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## gopro (May 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Molehonea *_
> I found the lean stack but is VPX better?



There are a few members on here that will "assure" you that LEAN STACK is better than VPX, however, that is not true. I am not saying either one is better because both products have done quite nicely for most that have used them. I HAVE personally used VPX prohormones and find them to be awesome...I have not used Lean Stack, so I have no experience with it other than feedback from my industry contacts and fellow lifters.

My personal recommendation is the VPX stack of either 1-Test/EQ or their Syngex-1 product. However, the only way to know for sure is to do a cycle of each product line.


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## kuso (May 28, 2003)

Real World Use 


In addition to these specific studies, real world use of TU for hypogonadism provides some very telling data. Undecanoate requires 120-240mg/day for satisfactory replacement (36-39), which is about 5-10mg, delievered, per day. Taking the middle numbers of both, we get 4% bioavailability. It should also be noted (and this is obvious from the above numbers, which give a range of 2-8%), that the efficacy of TU has been shown to vary greatly in the real world as well as clinical settings.

So, as you can see, though we do get some improvement compared to the free steroid, it is very far from spectacular. Given 15% delivery for the base, and assuming the androgen is dissolved in oil and the consumer takes the product with a very fatty meal, we end up at around 18-20%, (but individuals would proabably vary from just 15% to as high as 25%) -- and if not, we don't go much beyond the 15% of the free steroid.

 So, now that we have looked at the technology, let us turn to the individual products:



1-Test Ethylcarbonate Ester (Mag-10)


There is no research on this ester improving oral bioavailability and there is no Log P data. Patrick Arnold has tested it and found it to be extremely insoluble in oil, which if true, would indicate that the afore mentioned lymphatic absorption would not occur. They claim that it gets close to 100% absorption, but offer no supporting evidence whatsoever, and it goes completely against all scientific data in existence, and there is an enormous body of literature on the subject, thus terms such as "full of shit", "fraudulent claims", and "blatantly lying" come to mind, but those are ugly words, so I shall not speak them. This should get the same 15% bioavailability as the free base.

If that were not enough, Mag-10 contains only 4.2 grams of 4-AD and 1-Test, combined and counting the weight of the ester -- and the 4-AD is listed first, so it is the major compound. They are clearly hiding the amount of 1-test for a reason, and it isn't because it is some magical number that needs to be kept secret from competitors. Usinmg the 3.5 to 1 ratio in ONE+, that comes out to a mere 950 mg of 1-test and 3.25 grams of 4-AD. If we are generous and assume that it contains a 2 to 1 ratio, we get 1.4 grams of 1-test and 2.8 grams of 4-AD. If the good folks at Biotest want to divulge the actual numbers, we will be more than happy to amend this article. Oh yeah, and it carries a massive $99.99 price tag for a 2 week supply. discount $68.95



1-Test THP Ether Capsules (Sauce, T-100). 


As we have shown, lymphatic absporptin with the THP ethers is very questionable, and it requires that the steroid be dissolved in oil and taken with a very fatty meal more maximal effect. The ether would increase lipophilicity to some extent over the base, so it should perform marginally better, in that it would tend to be solubized in the intestine more quickly. We will say 15-18%, depending on if it is taken with a fatty meal or not.

Sauce (Syntrax) contains 4.5 grams of 1-test per bottle and retails for $69.95 and discounts for $43.95 
T-100 (S.A.N.) contains 4.7 grams of 1-test per bottle and retails for $79.95 and discounts for $49.99 
1-Test THP Ethergels (1-T) 
Again, the data suggests that lymphatic absorption is very questionabel. However, the early real world feedback certainly seems to show the ethergels to be superior to the base and ethers without oil -- again, this could be explained by quicker micellation in the small intestine. Let us estimate the ethergels at 18-20%, depending on if it is taken with a meal. And, with a bit more feedback, and/or a viable theory on an alternate mechanism of action for the ether, we could go as high as 25%

1-T (Molecular Nutrition) contain 1.8 grams of 1-test and retails for $64.99 and discounts for $39.99

While designing a better delivery system is pretty exciting to a scientist, for the consumer, it all comes down to cost effectiveness, so let's see how the products stack up. We will use a relative scale based on the amount of product delivered per unit price. We will use suggested retail -- a little math will allow you to convert the numbers based on what you actually pay for the product. We will set the value for the 1-test base (One-T) at 100 -- thus, a product that scores 150 gives you 50% more for your money. Because Mag-10 and ONE+ also contain 4-AD, we will set ONE+'s score equal to ONE and determine Mag-10 based on ONE+ (and we will give 2 scores for it based on our two assumtpions of amount of actives)

Products
 Score

ONE (Avant Labs)
 205

ONE+ (Avant Labs)
 205

Sauce (Syntrax)
 166

T-100 (S.A.N.) 
 152

One-T (Gaspari Nutrition)
 100

1-T (Molecular Nutrition) 
 97

Mag-10 (Biotest) 
 24-48 


Now, I may be wrong here as I`ve not used VPX but I believe 
one bottle has only 1000mg of 1test in it.......

http://www.avantlabs.com/main.php


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## gopro (May 28, 2003)

You kuzman! What I like better than those "real world" studies you wrote about is the "real world" results that have been reported...

I have heard most of the best feedback (and I am privy to tons) from VPX, Avant, and Biotest. In cap form I have heard great things about SAN, good things about Molecular, and only decent about Syntrax.

By the way...VPX is coming out with a new "cypionate" version of 1-Test and 4-AD thats going to blow the roof off!


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## Molehonea (May 28, 2003)

Thanks for the help, when you score them, what do you mean.

ONE (Avant Labs)
205

are you saying this has the highes score?


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## kuso (May 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> 
> By the way...VPX is coming out with a new "cypionate" version of 1-Test and 4-AD thats going to blow the roof off!



Don`t wanna steel your thunder there, but 1fast has had both now for awhile 


http://www.1fast400.com/store/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=18&products_id=570

http://www.1fast400.com/store/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=18&products_id=508


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## kuso (May 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Molehonea *_
> Thanks for the help, when you score them, what do you mean.
> 
> ONE (Avant Labs)
> ...



Unless in my sleep depraved state I`ve missed something, it means you get 6 times MORE 1T for LESS money than with VPX.........


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## gopro (May 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> Don`t wanna steel your thunder there, but 1fast has had both now for awhile
> 
> 
> ...




I know about their stuff. The VPX version will be better. Nuff said.


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## Twin Peak (May 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> I know about their stuff. The VPX version will be better. Nuff said.



Because you have tried both yes?

This is classic stuff.

And as to your comments about using VPX PHs....you have posted MANY MANY times that you do not and cannot use PHs because of the shows you compete in.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't EQ relatively new?

Lastly, as you have made clear in another thread, you have or soon may have an affiliation with VPX.

Wasn't it also you who cast aside the opinions of well established scientists like Pat Arnold, Bill Llewellyn and Par Deus on coming off a cycle of PHs simply because they are "in the industry."  You discarded their opinions on this topic for that reason even to the extent they were not recommending their own products or indeed not recommending "supplements" at all but rather manipulation in training and diet.  So wouldn't your own opinion now be equally suspect?

For the record, while I DO have an affiliation with Avant, Avant no longer makes PHs as they were pulled from the market.  So anything still being sold is because a retailer still has stock.  And so, any purchases (whether I do or do not recommend them) do not go to Avant's bottom line, as these products will never be made again.

For the record, I do not have such an afffiliation with Mike (1fast400) though he is a friend.  His products are top notch, by any anecdotal account, and I use them regularly.

P.S.  I have also used VPX's 1Test product, and do have a basis to compare.

P.P.S.  Putting aside effectiveness of products, any consumer would do well not only to compare product X against product Y but to compare the AMOUNT of active ingredient you get for the purchase, as Kuso pointed out above.

P.P.P.S.  This is truly getting quite silly.


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## ZECH (May 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> I know about their stuff. The VPX version will be better. Nuff said.


The cyp powders are for injecting purposes! Right? Is VPX going to make one for injectables also?? If not how can this be the same product?


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## Molehonea (May 28, 2003)

So,

Form what your are saying I should choise the VPX?

Also, I amusing this fore a Cuts cycle, is this the best combination (T1 and 1,4, Andro)


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## Twin Peak (May 28, 2003)

I would choose 1Test and 1, 4 for cutting and 1Test and 4-diol for bulking.

GoPro (a VPX affiliate, or soon to be) is saying you should use VPX.

Everyone else is saying there are better options for your money.  I am as biased at GP, except Avant's is no longer making these products.


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## Molehonea (May 28, 2003)

Could you give me a link to GP.


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## Molehonea (May 28, 2003)

Or better yet some good products other than VPX that may be cheaper and have aboiut the same effectivmess


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## Twin Peak (May 28, 2003)

GP = GoPro.

All the best brands were discussed on the previous page.


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## Molehonea (May 28, 2003)

One more question if i can get ONE (Avant Labs) would you recomend it over the others? I have never tried ether one I have only tried bio-test.


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## Twin Peak (May 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Molehonea *_
> One more question if i can get ONE (Avant Labs) would you recomend it over the others? I have never tried ether one I have only tried bio-test.



I think it is still available through some retailers, like 1fast400.  

Based on anecdotal feedback from this and many other boards, I think I can fairly say they it is the most effective 1-Test product.

If you cannot get One, but can get another *quality* transdermal, that would be better than the orals currently available (as most prohormones except for 1, 4 andro have low oral bioavailability).

Again, I am biased, but your purchase will not go to Avant's bottom line.  Also, if you ask enough people, and examine actual feedback (ie. how much some one has gained rather than "this stuff is good man") you will come to the same conclusion.

If you want to stack this with 1, 4 I would suggest either molecular nutrition or 1fast400's own brand, which is what I use, and is relatively inexpensive.


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## Molehonea (May 28, 2003)

One more question if i can get ONE (Avant Labs) would you recomend it over the others? I have never tried ether one I have only tried bio-test.


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## Twin Peak (May 28, 2003)

Holy dejavu, batman.


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## Robboe (May 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> I know about their stuff. The VPX version will be better. Nuff said.




Eric, let me pick your brain for a minute.

I'm curious of a few things:

1. How many cycles of PH/PS have you done?

2. Of those cycles, what were the stacks, legnths etc..

3. How much did you gain from each?

4. Have you actually tried an Avant product yourself, to be putting them down so frequently?

Cheers.


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## gopro (May 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Because you have tried both yes?
> 
> This is classic stuff.
> ...


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## gopro (May 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Eric, let me pick your brain for a minute.
> 
> I'm curious of a few things:
> ...


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## kuso (May 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Molehonea *_
> So,
> 
> Form what your are saying I should choise the VPX?
> ...




Can I ask....how old are you?


VPX is more expensive than ONE with less than 20% of the amount of 1T than ONE........


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## Molehonea (May 29, 2003)

I am 29 years old.  I am also wanting to go on a intenste tranning and diet program to get me cut.  Do you have an programs that will help me?


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## bigswole30 (May 29, 2003)

VPX prohormones may have less hormone for more money, but keep in mind it is not how much you take, but how much is used in the body. Think about it. Transdermals and Liposomal prohormones are the best bar none. I do not like the hassle of transdermals, but I will never say they are not effective.
     As for VPX's new Cyp prohormones, lets just say they can be used in more than one way and I am not just speaking out of my ass. I have close contact with a very reputable employee of VPX. I will be trying it before it hits the market, but I will not disclose how I will be taking it.


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## gopro (May 29, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> VPX prohormones may have less hormone for more money, but keep in mind it is not how much you take, but how much is used in the body. Think about it. Transdermals and Liposomal prohormones are the best bar none. I do not like the hassle of transdermals, but I will never say they are not effective.
> As for VPX's new Cyp prohormones, lets just say they can be used in more than one way and I am not just speaking out of my ass. I have close contact with a very reputable employee of VPX. I will be trying it before it hits the market, but I will not disclose how I will be taking it.



Who do you know at VPX?? Send me a PM.


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## bigswole30 (May 29, 2003)

Gopro, check your PM.


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## Molehonea (May 29, 2003)

Hey please dont leave me out!! could you PM me the information?


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## Molehonea (May 29, 2003)

Please help?  Would you recomend one of them I have never tried eather?


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## bigswole30 (May 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Molehonea *_
> Please help?  Would you recomend one of them I have never tried eather?



Stack Syngex and EQ and you will be very glad you did.


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## Molehonea (May 30, 2003)

Thanks,

Sorry about so many question this is my first actual stack of t1 and adro. So, you belive this would be better than One beta(Avan and 1,4 Adro from 1Fast400.


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## bigswole30 (May 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Molehonea *_
> Thanks,
> 
> Sorry about so many question this is my first actual stack of t1 and adro. So, you belive this would be better than One beta(Avan and 1,4 Adro from 1Fast400.




IMO, they are equally effective. I just do not like the hassle of transdermals. I have done both, so I can give a direct comparison.


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## Molehonea (May 30, 2003)

What exact is Transdermals prohormones?  What is the problem with them?


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## Molehonea (May 30, 2003)

Did you see better results with this stack using the syntrax?


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## gopro (May 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Molehonea *_
> Did you see better results with this stack using the syntrax?



Go with the VPX or the Avant. The VPX is liquid and the Avant is topical (you put it on the skin). They both work very well.


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## Arnold (May 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Molehonea *_
> What exact is Transdermals prohormones?  What is the problem with them?



as gopro said you rub them on your skin and they are absorbed directly into your body, rather than an oral which has to go thru the digestive system. Also, transdermals are inherently time-released which keeps the PH levels elevated in your blood for up to 12 hours.

transdermal PH's are much more effective than orals, at least in my experience.


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## Molehonea (May 30, 2003)

OK, I am  getting different stories.  The price is the same but with VPX I get less.  

If they both give same results should I go with One beat? 
Please give me feed back!!!!!!!!!!


Why should I go with VPX????


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## gopro (May 31, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Molehonea *_
> OK, I am  getting different stories.  The price is the same but with VPX I get less.
> 
> If they both give same results should I go with One beat?
> ...



You ARE going to hear different opinions on this subject...there is no way around that. YOU have to decide who YOU feel is worth listening to. The one thing I will say is that each of the products that have been recommended to you are all very very good. I personally believe VPX to be the best and this is based on knowledge of the chemistry of their products and the feedback that I get each day. That is really all I can say. Its up to you now.


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## Arnold (May 31, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> You ARE going to hear different opinions on this subject...there is no way around that. YOU have to decide who YOU feel is worth listening to.



as well as who is completely unbiased in their supplement opinions!


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## Molehonea (May 31, 2003)

Thanks for all the help every one.  I think I will go with VPX but, I am wondering if it worth the money?  Becase the other products have more 1-t in them.  What does the group think?


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## Arnold (May 31, 2003)

haven't you already heard everyone's opinion here?

I prefer transdermal, e.g. AvantLabs


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## Mikes1 (May 31, 2003)

I also prefer Avant Labs.


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## kuso (May 31, 2003)

Avant


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## gopro (May 31, 2003)

OK, final time!

1-VPX liposomals
2-Avant transdermals
3-SAN caps


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## Twin Peak (Jun 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> as well as who is completely unbiased in their supplement opinions!



This is particularly important.  Which is why I try to stick to proviing info on the active ingredients rather than the brand.

However, when significant differences exist (e.g. here, modality) this should be pointed out, and the science explained.


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## gopro (Jun 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> This is particularly important.  Which is why I try to stick to proviing info on the active ingredients rather than the brand.
> 
> However, when significant differences exist (e.g. here, modality) this should be pointed out, and the science explained.



Very true, however, active ingredients is not the end all be all. The delivery system must also be of high quality. You can have tons of active ingredient that never gets absorbed, which does no good for anyone (like the anabolic steroid Andriol).

(And on a personal note...although you may think so, I really am not biased)


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## Twin Peak (Jun 2, 2003)

I am biased.  I admit it.  Though I do my best to take my bias out of the equation when I am discussing supplements, actives, delivery systems, science, and what not, which I can do pretty well.

It also makes it easy when every product Avant makes leads the pack.


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## gopro (Jun 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> I am biased.  I admit it.  Though I do my best to take my bias out of the equation when I am discussing supplements, actives, delivery systems, science, and what not, which I can do pretty well.
> 
> It also makes it easy when every product Avant makes leads the pack.



You pretty much ONLY discuss Avant products. I don't think I ever hear you praise any other company (although I may be wrong, but it seems that way).

But the comment about Avant supps always leading the pack simply is not true TP.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> You pretty much ONLY discuss Avant products. I don't think I ever hear you praise any other company (although I may be wrong, but it seems that way).



That's ridiculous.  Search the supps forum, which you moderate.  I never bring up Avant, unless it is asked about.

Mostly, I discuss prohormones, which Avant is no longer in the business of selling.

Frequently I discuss things like Ephedra, creatine, yohimbine, and various types of protein.  

Avant is not currently in the market on any of this.

Companies I generally respect?  Ergopharm, Molecular, 1Fast400 products, SAN to a lesser degree, Optimum nutrition, proteincustomizer.  I frequently discuss and recommend all/most of these.

When a particular product is worth mentioning, I'll do so as well.

Most of the time I discuss PHs (which is to me the most interesting topic and also most discussed) I do not discuss brands.

As to your disagreement with my last statement, while I said it in half-jest, if you go by user feedback, generally on any number of boards, you will see that I am in fact correct.

1) One/One+ (no longer sold) -- most people regard it as the most effective PH product ever made.  In this thread alone, if you disregard your and my statement, we have one opinion stating VPX and Avant are the same, but he disliked the gels, everyone else said Avant.  NUFF SAID.

2) LipoDerm Y -- an unmatched topical fat mobilzer.  Been on the market for years and has only ONE legitimate competitive product which is more expensive, and generally considered less effective.

3) FL7 -- NO COMPARABLE PRODUCT ON THE MARKET.

4) Ab-Solved -- 3) FL7 -- NO COMPARABLE PRODUCT ON THE MARKET, and its too new to tell.

5) Anorect-In -- NO COMPARABLE PRODUCT ON THE MARKET.

6) Leptigen/Leptigen II -- NO COMPARABLE PRODUCT ON THE MARKET.

So tell me where was I wrong?  

And on top of all this.  Avant Labs is an IM site sponsor.


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## JoshH (Jun 2, 2003)

just out of curiousity, why did they pull ONE (Avant Labs) off the shelves?


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## Twin Peak (Jun 2, 2003)

Because the FDA had a problem with transdermal delivery of prohormones.


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## JoshH (Jun 2, 2003)

because of side-effects?


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## ZECH (Jun 2, 2003)

(DG smiles and looks at his home made 1t and 4ad!!)


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## ZECH (Jun 2, 2003)

Transdermal is not approved as a drug delivery system!


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## Twin Peak (Jun 2, 2003)

Well, I dont know why or what the motivation was.  Obviously, if you are following PHs you know that there is a bill before congress to ban ALL prohormone products.

Certainly there are potential sides depending on which prohormone you use.

Avant's One was no more likely to cause a side effect than any other 1-testosterone product.


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## JoshH (Jun 2, 2003)

so if i can grab some ONE or Super ONE+ i should do it before it's too late?


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## Twin Peak (Jun 2, 2003)

If you want it, few retailers still have it.


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## gopro (Jun 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> That's ridiculous.  Search the supps forum, which you moderate.  I never bring up Avant, unless it is asked about.
> 
> I GUESS I JUST SEE THE AVANT TESTING SUBJECTS THREADS AND IT MAKES IT SEEM THAT YOU ARE ALWAYS TALKING AVANT...AND...
> ...


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## Robboe (Jun 3, 2003)

Ok, i been watching this thread develop for a little while now, and it's time to play devil's advocate.

Ok, firstly, Eric, you say TP only seems to talk about Avant - which he obviously is going to because he has several successful personal testimonials with their products, and has since become a legal and company representative. However, i distinctly recall that before the Avant buzz came onto this site, you only seemed to mention VPX (and occasionally SAN i recall). Does that not make you somewhat of a hypocrite in this regard?

Also, you say you recieve "FEEDBACK FROM MANY RETAILERS AND BIG WHOLESALERS IN THE INDUSTRY, AS WELL AS MY CLIENTS, AS WELL AS EMAILS FOR MY Q & A COLUMN AND I MUST SAY THAT VPX GETS THE MOST POSITIVE FEEDBACK." Well, since Avant currently only market over the internet, would this not be expected? VPX retail in stores, magazines and over the net. Currently Avant only retail via the internet. I expect this will change once/if they go "mainstream" - wouldn't you?

You also say "WELL, OF COURSE ITS BEST IN THIS CATAGORY IF NOBODY ELSE IS SELLING A LIKE PRODUCT." Doesn't that sorta emphasize TP's point about leading the pack?

Does it not mean they are the most innovative company around currently?

Does that make your statement: "But the comment about Avant supps always leading the pack simply is not true TP" completely wrong?

Have you not just completely gone against what you original said there?

Now, i'm not taking sides here, because i KNOW that TP is biased. How do i know? Because he seems to say it everytime he refers to Avant, so you gotta respect his honesty.

My own personal opinion, is that Avant is kind of an "underground" company right now. The people who get results with their products never seem to shut up about the company. Any other company when people get results from their products, get props and that's about it, but the way i see it right now, if Avant were to go out of business tomorrow, a year or two down the line, people would still be discussing the company as almost legendary or mythical, and if you weren't part of the fairytale, you missed out.

Now, that is an extreme thing to say, but as far as innovation goes, i have never heard of a company develop products (PH/PS aside) the type of products that Avant develops. The typical company makes creatine, glutamine, protein (or at least buys off someone else and packages it in their own labels) etc...

But for a company to try and manipulate appetite, cortisol (besides PS that you harp on about), leptin, specific fat receptors (besides LipoBurn), local cortisol release, AMPK and even to effect nutrient partitioning, is a breath of fresh air to the industy in my opinion. It's pretty much unheard of.


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## Robboe (Jun 3, 2003)

Also, while my train of thought is still on the rails, i also appreciate how, unlike most companies who try and sell you their "magic pill", Avant _expect_ you to know about sensible training and diet to make the most out of their products.

They go say, "this will fix all your problems without you moving a finger". They supply products which can help in various areas of diet and training and don't try and convince people otherwise.


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## gopro (Jun 3, 2003)

You make many excellent points TCD. One of the reasons I have always respected VPX, SAN, SYNTRAX, and a couple of others is that they very often INNOVATE products, rather than do what most do, which is to COPYCAT products. I do disagree when you say that I only mention VPX and SAN, which is totally and completely false b/c I promote many more companies than that...SYNTRAX, ALL THE WHEY, AST, CHAMPION, MUSCLELINK, YATES APPROVED, BIOTEST, etc. But that is really not important.

You are also right in that Avant is kind of underground and not widely available. This would certainly skew the results of feedback that I hear from retailers, but not from fitness boards, clients, and wholesalers. 

Mainly, the discussion between TP and I is focused on PHs, and this is the area that I am mainly talking about. I openly admitted that Avant is one of the top (or was) producers of effective PHs several times in this thread. If anyone told me they were going to use Avant PHs I wouldn't blink an eye. All I am saying is that I feel that VPX liposomals are the best of the PHs and what I have seen/heard is the base of my claim (along with heavy discussions with Jack Owoc and several other liposomal experts). But again, this is not to take anything away from Avant, b/c their PHs also generate amazing feedback!

As to their other products, I have heard mixed feedback. Some comparing them to drugs and others shrugging them off. I have never personally used any of their products, but I think I'm going to give their fat burners a try so I can have more personal knowledge on them. Since I am in a cutting phase at the moment I am going to look into a couple of their products.

Well, that is enough for now...


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## Molehonea (Jun 3, 2003)

Will on these products do I need other supplements like Creatien, sorry for the spelling


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## gopro (Jun 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Molehonea *_
> Will on these products do I need other supplements like Creatien, sorry for the spelling



No you do not. But you DO need a proper diet and sensible training program. You are going to use power, rep range, shock I believe, so you are covered with training, but you must be eating well too. Lots of good protein and clean carbs as well as healthy fats will help you get the most out of prohormones, no matter which ones you use.


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## Molehonea (Jun 3, 2003)

How Many days a week do you suggest I train?  And How many times a week to do each body part?


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## Robboe (Jun 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> I promote many more companies than that...SYNTRAX, ALL THE WHEY, AST, ...YATES APPROVED, BIOTEST, etc.



I stand corrected. I do recall seeing the odd post refering to these, although nowhere near as much as you seem to plug VPX.


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## gopro (Jun 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I stand corrected. I do recall seeing the odd post refering to these, although nowhere near as much as you seem to plug VPX.



Well, it all depends on the "type" of supplement we are talking about. You can see that I started a thread called...An Excellent New Whey...to promote Syntrax. Started another one about SANs V-12. I promoted VPXs Micellean, Plasma Expandor, Clenbutrx, and their PHs long long before I ever became affiliated with them...which by the way IS NOT OFFICIAL AS OF YET. DETAILS ARE STILL BEING WORKED OUT.

I believe VPX to be OVERALL the best supplement company out there, but will continue to speak about the several other quality companies in the field.


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## Nate (Jul 8, 2003)

What brand of 4-AD do you guys recommend stacking with 1-AD?


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## gopro (Jul 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Nate *_
> What brand of 4-AD do you guys recommend stacking with 1-AD?



SAN, Biotest, Ergopharm (do they put one out)?


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## bigswole30 (Jul 8, 2003)

I do not like Sann's ph, but that is just my opinion. I have heard good things about Biotest's 4-adec. Ergopharm puts out Androdiol select which is 300mg per capsule. The only thing I do not like about this product is that you have to take 900-1200mg per day to see results due to the poor oral bioavailablity of oral 4-ad. IMHO I would stack 1-ad with Paradeca. I did this stack and put on 17lbs and kept 14. That is my most weight gain to date with PH's. I took the 1-ad @ 600mg per day and the Paradeca(4-ad)@ 9cc per day.


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## gopro (Jul 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> I do not like Sann's ph, but that is just my opinion. I have heard good things about Biotest's 4-adec. Ergopharm puts out Androdiol select which is 300mg per capsule. The only thing I do not like about this product is that you have to take 900-1200mg per day to see results due to the poor oral bioavailablity of oral 4-ad. IMHO I would stack 1-ad with Paradeca. I did this stack and put on 17lbs and kept 14. That is my most weight gain to date with PH's. I took the 1-ad @ 600mg per day and the Paradeca(4-ad)@ 9cc per day.



Actually I'd just like to recommend that he take Syngex I or 1-Test cyp and 4-Test cyp, but that might sound biased....


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## bigswole30 (Jul 9, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Actually I'd just like to recommend that he take Syngex I or 1-Test cyp and 4-Test cyp, but that might sound biased....




I would have done that as well, but I have grown tired of all the VPX wars.


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## gopro (Jul 9, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> I would have done that as well, but I have grown tired of all the VPX wars.



Me too bro, me too...


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## Molehonea (Jul 11, 2003)

Will this stack work better than 1-fast lean stack.  This is my real goal is cuts.


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## gopro (Jul 11, 2003)

Fans of Avant will say no, but IMO the VPX stack is # 1


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## bigswole30 (Jul 11, 2003)

I agree with GOPRO. However, I did a stack of Avant "one" and boldione and had excellent results. Transdermals are just not for me though. I like to just swallow it and be done. 

I would stack Syngex1 at 8cc per day with EQ at 9cc per day. You will need a 240cc bottle of each for a 4 week cycle. This is more expensive than the lean stack, but it is worth every penny.


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## gopro (Jul 12, 2003)

Yes, I am NOT saying that Avant does not have a good product, because they DO! They always get excellent feedback. However, I feel, for several reasons, that VPX is leading the "prohormone pack" at the moment.


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## Robboe (Jul 12, 2003)

Avant are pretty much out of the PS/PH market ever since the FDA issue.

There's a possibilty of an oral PH, but that's beyond the horizon right now. Until then, i'd say almost any company but Avant are leading the "PH pack".


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## gopro (Jul 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Avant are pretty much out of the PS/PH market ever since the FDA issue.
> 
> There's a possibilty of an oral PH, but that's beyond the horizon right now. Until then, i'd say almost any company but Avant are leading the "PH pack".



Well, that is true. Avants transdermals are all but gone, so they really aren't an issue right now. So, I will amend my statement to say that of the remaining companies that sell oral PH products right now, VPX has the most result-producing on the market.


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## Molehonea (Jul 14, 2003)

I can still get avant labs trandermerals.  Do you stillbelive I can get better results with something else.


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## gopro (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Molehonea *_
> I can still get avant labs trandermerals.  Do you stillbelive I can get better results with something else.



Let me repeat myself...

1-VPX orals are just as effective as Avant transdermals are, if not more so...
2-Orals are easier to use than transdermals...
3-VPX orals are the best on the market...

My suggestion...do 4 weeks on both, with a 4 week break in-between, then compare and decide what works better for you.


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## ZECH (Jul 14, 2003)

GP, Can you get some client results from VPX orals so we can compare??


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## Molehonea (Jul 14, 2003)

Thnaks for the help


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## Twin Peak (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Let me repeat myself...
> 
> 1-VPX orals are just as effective as Avant transdermals are, if not more so...
> ...



Cough....cough....achem, bias.


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## gopro (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> GP, Can you get some client results from VPX orals so we can compare??



I'll give you 3 "case studies" that I did on my own with clients of mine...

user #1: 6 week cycle of Syngex I...lean mass gain of 11 lbs...bench press from 315 x 1 to 345 x 1

user # 2: 4 week cycle of Test Prop/2 weeks 6-OXO/4 weeks Test Prop...lean mass gain of 14 lbs over the entire 10 weeks...deadlift from 365 x 4 to 415 x 4

user # 3: 6 week cycle of Test Prop/EQ...lean mass gain of 9 lbs...seated dumbell press from 85s x 6 to 105s x 6

I have had some clients get either better results or not quite as good, but this is around average. Feedback from people that I have gotten through IM, MM, AF and VPX are all similar.


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## gopro (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Cough....cough....achem, bias.



Dude...you should do something about that cold...I'm concerned...and...

...wink, wink...truth...


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## Twin Peak (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> I'll give you 3 "case studies" that I did on my own with clients of mine...
> 
> user #1: 6 week cycle of Syngex I...lean mass gain of 11 lbs...bench press from 315 x 1 to 345 x 1
> ...



Impressive.


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## gopro (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Impressive.



I agree...impressive...but in truth, I've heard similar things from Avant users.


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## Molehonea (Jul 14, 2003)

Didi the first user only use Syngex1?  Also, I might do this with VPX but the price is so, High.  Is there mfg with better prices and similar qty.


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## gopro (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Molehonea *_
> Didi the first user only use Syngex1?  Also, I might do this with VPX but the price is so, High.  Is there mfg with better prices and similar qty.



Yes, the first user just took Syngex I. Yes, the prices of VPX products are high...but in this industry you generally get what you pay for. VPX uses the best raw materials and that is why they cost more.

I will tell you though that you can still do well with products from Ergopharm, SAN, Molecular Nutrition, and Biotest. One of the trainers that I have working for me just added 5 solid lbs on 3.5 weeks of Mag 10.


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## ZECH (Jul 14, 2003)

Thanks GP!


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## bigswole30 (Jul 14, 2003)

GOPRO, in your case studies you posted what is test prop? Do you mean 1-test prop by VPX or test prop the AAS? Ant the same for EQ? Boldenone or 1,4ad?


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## Robboe (Jul 14, 2003)

Eric, give us summaries of each of your cycles.

And don't try and tell me you didn't record anything, cause i know your compulsive/obessive disorder for training.


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## Nate (Jul 14, 2003)

I just got my shipment of 1-AD.

it's my first time ever trying anything of the sort.  i'm gonna see how it works on it's own before i go stacking it with anything else.  

i can't wait to try it, although i'm a little nervous.


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## gopro (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> GOPRO, in your case studies you posted what is test prop? Do you mean 1-test prop by VPX or test prop the AAS? Ant the same for EQ? Boldenone or 1,4ad?



BS...I was speaking specifically of 1-Test Prop and Lipo EQ by VPX...NOT THE ANABOLIC STEROIDS!


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## gopro (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Nate *_
> I just got my shipment of 1-AD.
> 
> it's my first time ever trying anything of the sort.  i'm gonna see how it works on it's own before i go stacking it with anything else.
> ...



Did you get the Ergopharm brand? Anyway, you should get nice results as a first time user of 1-AD, as long as your diet and training are on point. As for being nervous...don't be.


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## Twin Peak (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> BS...I was speaking specifically of 1-Test Prop and Lipo EQ by VPX...NOT THE ANABOLIC STEROIDS!



Wow, weird how that can be so confusing.  The names I mean.


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## Twin Peak (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Did you get the Ergopharm brand? Anyway, you should get nice results as a first time user of 1-AD, as long as your diet and training are on point. As for being nervous...don't be.



Does it matter?  Its either BY ergo, or licensed from ergo, isn't it?


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## gopro (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Eric, give us summaries of each of your cycles.
> 
> And don't try and tell me you didn't record anything, cause i know your compulsive/obessive disorder for training.



Wow...you have diagnosed me as obsessive/compulsive for training?? Now THAT is impressive, LOL...

And which cycles are you referring to specifically??


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## gopro (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Does it matter?  Its either BY ergo, or licensed from ergo, isn't it?



Honestly, I wasn't 100% sure if all 1-AD came from the same source. All of the feedback I have gotten on 1-AD has been from the Egropharm brand.


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## gopro (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Wow, weird how that can be so confusing.  The names I mean.



Have you ever considered standup comedy?


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## Twin Peak (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Honestly, I wasn't 100% sure if all 1-AD came from the same source. All of the feedback I have gotten on 1-AD has been from the Egropharm brand.



They do have a patent.  So any 1-ad out there is either by ergo, or infringing on the patent.


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## Twin Peak (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Have you ever considered standup comedy?



No, should I?


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## Nate (Jul 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Did you get the Ergopharm brand? Anyway, you should get nice results as a first time user of 1-AD, as long as your diet and training are on point. As for being nervous...don't be.



Yeah, ergopharm...

 

i got two bottles...i think that should be enough for my first time around.


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## gopro (Jul 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Nate *_
> Yeah, ergopharm...
> 
> 
> ...



Cool...good luck! Let us know how you do with it.


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## Robboe (Jul 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> And which cycles are you referring to specifically??



I thought the part where i said "Eric, give us summaries of each of your cycles" would be clear enough for you, but just cause it's you - 

Summary of:

1. Your first cycle.

2. Your most recent cycle.

3. All the ones between.

Specific enough?


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## bigswole30 (Jul 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> BS...I was speaking specifically of 1-Test Prop and Lipo EQ by VPX...NOT THE ANABOLIC STEROIDS!



Thanks for clearing that up. Are you in Florida yet? I turned in my resume to VPX yesterday. Put in a good word for me.


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## gopro (Jul 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> Thanks for clearing that up. Are you in Florida yet? I turned in my resume to VPX yesterday. Put in a good word for me.




I will be there on the 28th my friend. I will certainly put in a good word for you with the VPX brass.


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## gopro (Jul 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I thought the part where i said "Eric, give us summaries of each of your cycles" would be clear enough for you, but just cause it's you -
> 
> Summary of:
> ...



No, not specific enough yet. Why do you ask? And I have only done like 3 very short cycles with old products as the INBF banned all prohormones quite awhile ago.


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## Robboe (Jul 16, 2003)

I'm curious to what your gains were like. You're always harping on about how highly you rate the VPX orals so give us the insider info.

I've asked you for a summary before but you never gave me one.


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## gopro (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I'm curious to what your gains were like. You're always harping on about how highly you rate the VPX orals so give us the insider info.
> 
> I've asked you for a summary before but you never gave me one.



I have used 1-AD, 1-Test, and 4-AD. I only did short cycles of each and experienced my best gains with the combo of 1-Test and 4-AD. Since I used them there have been many improvements in the delivery systems of each (well, not 1-AD). However, I base my "harping" as you say, on my experience with the many cycles I have done with my clients, both in my studio and on the net. Not to mention the dozens of emails that I get each day regarding prohormones.

See my post above regarding my experience with 3 of my clients..that tells the story.


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