# My next experiment: PLASMA EXPANDER



## gopro (Oct 18, 2002)

I have seen very nice results with several of VPXs products...this includes 1-Test, Clenbutrx, and their Micellean MRP. I have been watching the development of their new creatine product, PLASMA EXPANDER, closely, and will begin experimenting with it this Monday. I will report the results soon...good, bad, or ugly!


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## ponyboy (Oct 18, 2002)

Cool...it is always good to have someone ELSE experimenting with their body instead of me (j/k).  

What is the basis behind plasma expander?  Are they claiming it will increase your blood volume?


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## gopro (Oct 18, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ponyboy *_
> Cool...it is always good to have someone ELSE experimenting with their body instead of me (j/k).
> 
> What is the basis behind plasma expander?  Are they claiming it will increase your blood volume?



No, I think they just call it plasma expander as a catchy, drug like name. That is common nowadays. Anyway, it really is just a novel creatine transport system using little carbs and some interesting insulin mimicking ingredients. I believe it also contains glutamine peptides and ATP. I have been hearing buzz about this product for months now and I am interested in it. Plus, I always act as guinea pig with new supps so I can speak from actual experience to better help my clients and people on the boards.


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## Robboe (Oct 18, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Plus, I always act as guinea pig with new supps so I can speak from actual experience to better help my clients and people on the boards.



Yeah, i'm a bit like that. 

Here's the main ingredients of the stuff.

Plasma Expand*o*r by the way

Micronized Creatine Monohydrate
4-Hydroxyisoleucine (proprietary) 
Nitrous-X: AKG (Arginine alpha-Ketoglutarate) 
APG (Arginine Pyroglutamate) 
Pharmaceutical Grade ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate)


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## ponyboy (Oct 18, 2002)

Okay, I'm just exercising my right to say "Huh?" since I don't have the depth of knowledge you guys have...

Pharmaceutical Grade ATP?  I didn't realize that this was something you could create in powder form or anything else?


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## Robboe (Oct 18, 2002)

No clue, PB.

I just got the ingredients off another website.

BTW, it does contain glutamine too. I missed that part off the ingredients list by mistake.


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## gopro (Oct 18, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ponyboy *_
> Okay, I'm just exercising my right to say "Huh?" since I don't have the depth of knowledge you guys have...
> 
> Pharmaceutical Grade ATP?  I didn't realize that this was something you could create in powder form or anything else?



TCDs list is only partially accurate...not his fault as they changed the formula a few times. Anyway, most of the ingredients are "insulin mimickers." It is an intense product. If your interested I just got my bottle of it and can list all of the ingredients for ya.


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## dvlmn666 (Oct 18, 2002)

Great timing GP, I had just heard about this and was curious about it. 

So basically it's a creatine product well suited for a low carb diet? Well that and hopefully some other killer stuff, but that's kinda the nittty gritty of it. Right?


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## gopro (Oct 19, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by dvlmn666 *_
> Great timing GP, I had just heard about this and was curious about it.
> 
> So basically it's a creatine product well suited for a low carb diet? Well that and hopefully some other killer stuff, but that's kinda the nittty gritty of it. Right?



Yeah, this stuff is interesting. Mor intense than SWOLE or VP12 from SAN. 3 types of creatine, several new age insulin mimickers, special carb blend, glycerine, glut peptides and more.

I'm expecting a killer pump from this stuff and a nice increase in strength and vascularity. Actually, I should say "hoping" not "expecting," as I put all supps on trial with the motto "gulity until proven innocent," or, "crap until it shows results!"


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## PB&J (Oct 19, 2002)

Thanks for posting your review, it helps us newbies a lot.


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## kuso (Oct 20, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> 
> Mor intense than SWOLE



I`m interested to see how you go with it....I remember reading SWOLE made you feel like shit, so good luck with this one


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## gopro (Oct 20, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by PB&J *_
> Thanks for posting your review, it helps us newbies a lot.




Helping newbies is one of the main reasons I'm here. I wish I had IM when I started out!


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## animal56 (Oct 20, 2002)

WTG Hella Moderator! Your experience and advice is always welcome, no matter how off-the-wall it may be! (j/k)

I look forward to your review. I'd seen the ad in a Muscle&Fitness months ago, but like most ads in muscle mags, I thought it was more plump than pump (if you get my meaning).

Good luck, almightyGP.

Cheers!


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## gopro (Oct 21, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> 
> 
> I`m interested to see how you go with it....I remember reading SWOLE made you feel like shit, so good luck with this one



I'll know today. Taking my first serving before my workout later!


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## gopro (Oct 21, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by animal56 *_
> WTG Hella Moderator! Your experience and advice is always welcome, no matter how off-the-wall it may be! (j/k)
> 
> I look forward to your review. I'd seen the ad in a Muscle&Fitness months ago, but like most ads in muscle mags, I thought it was more plump than pump (if you get my meaning).
> ...



Wow...thanks, I think?? I'll let you all know soon what I think!


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## gopro (Oct 23, 2002)

Quick update...

-tastes like shit...usually a good thing
-minor stomach upset...not too bad
-I'm only using half the recommended dosage as I think a full dosage is a waste
-two workouts on it were excellent...doesn't really mean anything yet though
-no sick feeling like I had with Swole


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## Robboe (Oct 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Quick update...
> 
> -tastes like shit...usually a good thing




Ahhh...So i take it you've tried FaecesPlex too?


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## gopro (Oct 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhh...So i take it you've tried FaecesPlex too?



TCD, always ready with a joke!


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## Robboe (Oct 23, 2002)

I do my best


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## gopro (Oct 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I do my best



I know Chicken...I know.


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## Redsol1 (Oct 24, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhh...So i take it you've tried FaecesPlex too?



I take it your refering to MetaPlex Tr?

la'
  Redsol1


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## Robboe (Oct 24, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Redsol1 *_
> 
> 
> I take it your refering to MetaPlex Tr?
> ...



Haha no, no. I just made it up when i saw Gopro seems to know what the taste of shit is like.


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## Redsol1 (Oct 25, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> Haha no, no. I just made it up when i saw Gopro seems to know what the taste of shit is like.



If you take suppliments for long enough you become very familiar with the taste of ass, in theory if not in practice.

La'
  Redsol1


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## animal56 (Oct 25, 2002)

True dat.


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## gopro (Oct 26, 2002)

Ok, back to something more constructive...after my first training week on PE...

-I gained 1 lb
-my strength levels were up, most specifically in upper body movements
-pumps in the gym were increased
-stoamch upset lessoned after about 3rd day

So I gained a lb...meaningless at this point as it does contain calories and that itself can be responsible for the 1 lb.

My strength was awesome this week. Not too sure about this b/c I would doubt the PE could "kick in" so fast. But, certainly not complaining.

As for the pumps...this is definite. I started using PE on a low rep week, where I rarely get much of a pump. However, after just a couple of sets of just 4-6 reps I felt my skin stretching. Can't wait to see what happens on a higher rep week. This could be the effect of the various insulin like substances in the product.


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## ~LP~ (Oct 29, 2002)

I think this is all psychological.  I don't see how a transport system will make such a difference that it's so noticeable, such as "feeling your skin stretch" versus regular creatine and transport mechanisms.

Perhaps a bit of overemphasis on what supps can do?

Also, for your experiment, where you taking creatine previously?  If so for how long.  Just wondering if you were already at saturation...or were you creatine supplement free prior to trying this new product?


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## Tank316 (Oct 29, 2002)

maybe after its all said and done, its still an experiment, if you get an 'psychological'' edge from a supplement, it means you're training harder, that it self is a plus.right?


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## gopro (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> I think this is all psychological.  I don't see how a transport system will make such a difference that it's so noticeable, such as "feeling your skin stretch" versus regular creatine and transport mechanisms.
> 
> Perhaps a bit of overemphasis on what supps can do?
> ...



Well, sorry, but you think WRONG! I am WELL beyond a placebo effect or a "psychological" boost. I have been at this way too long and I have formed a very "negative" opinion of most supplements. A supplement needs to seriously prove something to me for me to give it a thumbs up. Also, when I experiment with a new supplement I do it in a very organized and controlled way. This allows my analysis to be accurate rather than just "off the cuff."

Oh, and to answer your question...I have been on creatine (titrated from IDS) for about two months. I was definitely already at FULL saturation. This is one reason why I am so far pretty impressed with this supplement.

And since I'm here I will give you all an interesting update. Here is last weeks chest workout as compared to this weeks chest workout....

Last Week:

-incline press...365 x 4, 345 x 5
-flat dumbell press...150s x 7, 150s x 6
-dumbell pullover (4 second negative)...150 x 4, 140 x 6

This Week:

-incline press...365 x 5, 355 x 5
-flat dumbell press...150s x 8, 150s x 7
-dumbell pullover (4 second negative)...150 x 6, 150 x 5

I have nothing else to contribute this to but the addition of plasma expandor. Now these "results" are still preliminary...too early to tell what is really going on...but so far I am encouraged. Oh, and my pumps with these low reps have been outstanding!


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## Snake_Eyes (Oct 29, 2002)

No one is beyond a placebo effect, no matter how much you might think so.


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## gopro (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> No one is beyond a placebo effect, no matter how much you might think so.



Bullshit...you are wrong. In fact I go into trying a new supplement with doubts, not expectations. Maybe you are not beyond it, but I am.


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## Snake_Eyes (Oct 29, 2002)

Doesn't matter what you think consciously. A study with a sample size of n=1, who is aware he is taking something that may or may not improve performance, WILL be skewed to the point of rendering that study useless, despite what you may feel to be the case.


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## Training God (Oct 29, 2002)

That's a valid point Snake Eyes.


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## ~LP~ (Oct 29, 2002)

LMAO!  What a joke.  I'm glad you've been at things so long, that pumps, and feeling your skin being tight, and slight progress that may or may not be a result of what you ate that day, how the spotter helped or didn't help, psychological factors, hydration level, warmup, length of rest prior to working sets.

I'm glad that you have it all figured out, with a one person test subject.  You should maybe work for Muscletech too, so you can take cell tech, and feel your muscles grow by 184331% in one week.

If you are so doubtful about supplements you wouldn't be praising something after one week, and telling us these things you are imagining.  I don't know if they pay you to do this, or if you simply don't know what is happening.

At least coming to this site, I've now realized who NOT to get supplement advice from.  In this, I must thank you.


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## Training God (Oct 29, 2002)

Lol.


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## kuso (Oct 29, 2002)

it must really suck to be a whore and not have a board to post on


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## Training God (Oct 29, 2002)

*** This is just a chunk of an article taken from the Skeptics Dictionary.



"Some believe the placebo effect is psychological, due to a belief in the treatment or to a subjective feeling of improvement. Irving Kirsch, a psychologist at the University of Connecticut, believes that the effectiveness of Prozac and similar drugs may be attributed almost entirely to the placebo effect. He and Guy Sapirstein analyzed 19 clinical trials of antidepressants and concluded that the expectation of improvement, not adjustments in brain chemistry, accounted for 75 percent of the drugs' effectiveness (Kirsch 1998).  "The critical factor," says Kirsch, "is our beliefs about what's going to happen to us. You don't have to rely on drugs to see profound transformation." In an earlier study, Sapirstein analyzed 39 studies, done between 1974 and 1995, of depressed patients treated with drugs, psychotherapy, or a combination of both. He found that 50 percent of the drug effect is due to the placebo response. 

A person's beliefs and hopes about a treatment, combined with their suggestibility, may have a significant biochemical effect. Sensory experience and thoughts can affect neurochemistry. The body's neurochemical system affects and is affected by other biochemical systems, including the hormonal and immune systems. Thus, it is consistent with current knowledge that a person's hopeful attitude and beliefs may be very important to their physical well-being and recovery from injury or illness. 

However, it may be that much of the placebo effect is not a matter of mind over molecules, but of mind over behavior. A part of the behavior of a "sick" person is learned. So is part of the behavior of a person in pain. In short, there is a certain amount of role-playing by ill or hurt people. Role-playing is not the same as faking or malingering. The behavior of sick or injured persons is socially and culturally based to some extent. The placebo effect may be a measurement of changed behavior affected by a belief in the treatment. The changed behavior includes a change in attitude, in what one says about how one feels, and how one acts. It may also affect one's body chemistry."


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## Training God (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> it must really suck to be a whore and not have a board to post on



*** Do all the members flame people for finding a post funny???
 Plus your a mod.


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## kuso (Oct 29, 2002)

Oh come on.....if you think that was a flame you must really be pretty soft 

And actually.....as you are here on and off I was actually refering to LP!


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## ~LP~ (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> it must really suck to be a whore and not have a board to post on




Hmmm...my post was valid, with rational reasoning.  I don't know why you posted this, but I would rather hear your opinion...it seems there are a lot of yesmen on this board...I'd rather hear a thought out response.  Regardless of what board is my main board, I'd like to think concepts are discussed objectively, regardless of who or where the info comes from.

Training god, good quote.  I have also read how russian coaches used to have their lifters "visualize" their lift prior to lifting in their maximum range.  Apparently, there was a well documented increase in performance from doing this.  So this would lead me to believe that the mind can play a significant role in lifting performance.  But I guess there is one man alive who is immune to this sort of thing.


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## kuso (Oct 29, 2002)

shit......Ijust had a decent answer typed out and the fucking site dropped out.....you`ll need to w8 a bit now lol


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## Training God (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> 
> 
> Training god, good quote.  I have also read how russian coaches used to have their lifters "visualize" their lift prior to lifting in their maximum range.  Apparently, there was a well documented increase in performance from doing this.  So this would lead me to believe that the mind can play a significant role in lifting performance.  But I guess there is one man alive who is immune to this sort of thing.



*** El P you're quite correct when you said that there are a lot of people who add in snide remarks and instead of posting rational remarks backed with common sense, experience and science.

The internet is all about sharing, debating and informing readers while passing on quality information. That's what the beauty of the internet is all about. Free flowing information at our very finger tips. 

I ordered a book called "Mental Muscle" which was written by a local prof with his PHD in physcology.  Apparently he has a love for bodybuilding and the book revolved around the power of the mind and how it can affect the outcome and skew the results we think we've obtained in our expereinces in lifting. I haven't finished reading it but I would reccomend it.


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## kuso (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Anyway...all that aside, IMO I believe that the placebo effect can infact, effect everyone, reguardless of training level or experience. I also think that gopro`s comment saying it doesn`t effect him is no worse that your first comment in here saying *I think this is all psychological.*.....................as Training God was nice enough to let us all know yesterday, no one knows to a certainty either way.


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## ~LP~ (Oct 29, 2002)

I have rebutted a statement by another member.  Because he is a mod does that mean I cannot do this now?  Are mods superbeings here?  There are others here that have links to other sites in their profile.  I believe that is why it is there.  If it bothers you maybe you should suggest to the admins that they remove that feature.  So because it is another training board you have an issue with it.  What if it was porn, or a political party you are against.  I don't see wtf your point is here.  But feel free to whine and complain about it if you wish...has nothing to do with this argument regardless.

Why do I care if someone agrees with me?  If I wanted an argument that I would get a lot of support on, I doubt I'd argue with Gopro, as I'm sure his legions of followers will be here to aid his cause soon enough.  Perhaps if you could simply stick to the issues at hand, you wouldn't get all riled up over something that has nothing to do with this debate.

Oh and for the psychological part...it seems you agree with me...but won't agree because you are acting childish.  If you want to nitpick and look for any flaw in a statement you make, go ahead.  Judging from this thread, and the fact that you have over 9k posts here...I'm sure I could find quite a few in yours...if I had the time to waste as you seem to.

I'm perfectly happy debating this subject...but your irrelevent and poorly thought out attacks have no place in this thread.  After all, Gopro did say my thinking was incorrect, and that he isn't succeptible to something that seems to be normal, and common with human nature.



> **** El P you're quite correct when you said that there are a lot of people who add in snide remarks and instead of posting rational remarks backed with common sense, experience and science.*




Yeah, but you gotten my name incorrect...mak.


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## kuso (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> I have rebutted a statement by another member.  Because he is a mod does that mean I cannot do this now?  Are mods superbeings here?  There are others here that have links to other sites in their profile.  I believe that is why it is there.  If it bothers you maybe you should suggest to the admins that they remove that feature.  So because it is another training board you have an issue with it.  What if it was porn, or a political party you are against.  I don't see wtf your point is here.  But feel free to whine and complain about it if you wish...has nothing to do with this argument regardless.
> 
> Why do I care if someone agrees with me?  If I wanted an argument that I would get a lot of support on, I doubt I'd argue with Gopro, as I'm sure his legions of followers will be here to aid his cause soon enough.  Perhaps if you could simply stick to the issues at hand, you wouldn't get all riled up over something that has nothing to do with this debate.
> ...



LMFAO.....you asked for the reson I posted, and you asked for my opinion......you now seem a little riled at both both, even though I did agree to a point with you, and to a larger point with Training God, and are now trying to turn this into some sort of personal attack? I must say, I was under the impression you were a little more mature than that 

I personally have no problems whatsoever with WBB members here.....I quite enjoy reading some of the shit gopro and Maki go on with ( btw Maki...what part of aisa are you from? ). Love reading some of TCD`s things, and know many of the members at WBB from other sites.

Feel free to go through my posts too if you like, I`m sure you`ll find many stupid things in there, as you will of anyone constantly improving and not set in a single mind set.


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## Training God (Oct 29, 2002)

Oh.....just so Training God can ask me for the research papers proving beyond a shadow of a doubt why I believe it??

*** No, I want to hear your flawed logic. I ask for weight to an argument because too often plain jane comments are made on this board.

Anyway...all that aside, IMO I believe that the placebo effect can infact, effect everyone, reguardless of training level or experience. I also think that gopro`s comment saying it doesn`t effect him is no worse that your first comment in here saying I think this is all psychological......................as Training God was nice enough to let us all know yesterday, no one knows to a certainty either way.

*** So then you agree that Go Pro is definitely suceptiable to this so called effect? Nothing is certain in fitness except the governing scientific laws. However we can come to an agreement that certain things happen in most people. Things such as muscle growth through progressive overload and eating more to gain weight.


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## kuso (Oct 29, 2002)

Originally posted by Training God 

*** No, I want to hear your flawed logic. * no see...these kinda of rude comments don`t reflect well on WBB and as you keep saying have nothing to do with the topic at hand........shall we drop them?*I ask for weight to an argument because too often plain jane comments are made on this board.


*** So then you agree that Go Pro is definitely suceptiable to this so called effect? Nothing is certain in fitness except the governing scientific laws. *Yes, twice now I have said that I believe everyone is suceptiable.*However we can come to an agreement that certain things happen in most people. Things such as muscle growth through progressive overload and eating more to gain weight.


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## Training God (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> LMAO!  What a joke.  I'm glad you've been at things so long, that pumps, and feeling your skin being tight, and slight progress that may or may not be a result of what you ate that day, how the spotter helped or didn't help, psychological factors, hydration level, warmup, length of rest prior to working sets.
> 
> I'm glad that you have it all figured out, with a one person test subject.  You should maybe work for Muscletech too, so you can take cell tech, and feel your muscles grow by 184331% in one week.
> ...



So far I have seen a picture of GoPro and from the looks of him he knows what he is talking about...you on the other hand I have seen nothing of other than completely witless posting.


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## kuso (Oct 29, 2002)

Personally, I think a lot of the members do think for themselves though usually don`t find the need to argue thier point 

What part of Japan are you half from? And what is Maki shortened from....if you don`t mind me asking?


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## Training God (Oct 29, 2002)

no see...these kinda of rude comments don`t reflect well on WBB and as you keep saying have nothing to do with the topic at hand........shall we drop them?

*** I'm sorry I sound rude but that is the sole reason I find myself arguing so much with the members here and at other boards as well. Flawed logic backed by a good dose of ignorance equals a stupid post. I'm not directing this at you though. So don't take offense to it.


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## Training God (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> 
> What part of Japan are you half from? And what is Maki shortened from....if you don`t mind me asking?



*** Born and raised here in Canada. But my mom is from Tokoyo. 
I'm actually going back this christmas for the second time.

My name is not short for anything. Hehe, I get that quite a bit.
Just plain old "Maki."


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## kuso (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Training God *_
> 
> 
> *** I'm sorry I sound rude but that is the sole reason I find myself arguing so much with the members here and at other boards as well. Flawed logic backed by a good dose of ignorance equals a stupid post. I'm not directing this at you though. So don't take offense to it.



Ok then, I don`t think I`ve read it anywhere else, so tell me, what makes you so muche better than the rest of the members? Phd`s IFBB pro?? 

And btw......LP.....why would you change your name to post over here? That seems a little small to me.


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Training God *_
> no see...these kinda of rude comments don`t reflect well on WBB and as you keep saying have nothing to do with the topic at hand........shall we drop them?
> 
> *** I'm sorry I sound rude but that is the sole reason I find myself arguing so much with the members here and at other boards as well. Flawed logic backed by a good dose of ignorance equals a stupid post. I'm not directing this at you though. So don't take offense to it.




hmmmmm, you have a very curt way of speaking as well freind, I can see that some of it is unintentional.....but it's all in the perception of others i guess.


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## Training God (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by BjUaFyF *_
> 
> 
> So far I have seen a picture of GoPro and from the looks of him he knows what he is talking about...you on the other hand I have seen nothing of other than completely witless posting.



*** You are aware that presence is not everything if anything?
I can look the part but act a fool.

As for Go Pro, just because he is bigger then most and has more competition experience does not mean his word should be taken over and above someone else. It should be the quality of advice backed with the presence of how this person has used the information that should be the determining factor.


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## Training God (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> 
> 
> Ok then, I don`t think I`ve read it anywhere else, so tell me, what makes you so muche better than the rest of the members? Phd`s IFBB pro??



*** I did not say I was superior to the people on this board. Not once have I ever said that in fact. I just find it peculiar (sp) that when I question someone I get a backlash of verbal attacks on myself as a person and my stance. It's like people are insulted and offended if I question their philosophy.


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## kuso (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Training God *_
> 
> 
> *** I did not say I was superior to the people on this board. Not once have I ever said that in fact. I just find it peculiar (sp) that when I question someone I get a backlash of verbal attacks on myself as a person and my stance. It's like people are insulted and offended if I question their philosophy.



Well, as you said, you sound rude most of the time!


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Training God *_
> 
> 
> *** You are aware that presence is not everything if anything?
> ...




Yes I have heard that before, but (and here we go again TG) I don't feel that one can easily look the part of an expereinced body builder/shaper, as In GoPros case to look at his picture shows not only a large amount of muscle and excellent conditioning but years of work, I have yet to find something/anything questionable about GoPros advice. I personally prefer the advice of practical expereince verses book expereince. That is the reason i purchased the book I refered to in another thread, due to the authors years of intense training and practical expereince in the gym.

LP didn't offer any advice all he did was slam a response from GoPro, therfore no quality to measure and no presence of information as he made none available.


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## Training God (Oct 29, 2002)

I guess rudness can be mistaken for being blunt?
Whatever the case I will tone it down and mind my manners.


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## kuso (Oct 29, 2002)

Originally posted by Training God 


*** Born and raised here in Canada. But my mom is from Tokoyo. 
I'm actually going back this christmas for the second time.

*are you gong to be doing any traveling?*

My name is not short for anything. Hehe, I get that quite a bit.
Just plain old "Maki." 

*It`s not the most common male name is it!? Were you actually given a kanji for it, or just the romaji?*


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Training God *_
> I guess rudness can be mistaken for being blunt?
> Whatever the case I will tone it down and mind my manners.




yes it can I am often accused of the same thing at my work, i don't mean to sound rude but i don't take the time to pretty my comments up I guess you could say.


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## kuso (Oct 29, 2002)

There must be something in the water in Canada


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 29, 2002)

It's not the water it's all the damned Canadian whisky


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## kuso (Oct 29, 2002)

That and the cold....must make you all irritable


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 29, 2002)

I Know I can be a little edgy with that combo yes


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## kuso (Oct 29, 2002)

whisky....anytime.....cold, forget it!


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 29, 2002)

LOL, I am of the same sentiment...getting a little sick of it to tell ya the truth


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## kuso (Oct 29, 2002)

man, it got down to 11c here last night and I was cold


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 29, 2002)

wow thats gotta be ruff kuso........pffffftttttt thats what the hottest day of the year was for me lol


----------



## kuso (Oct 29, 2002)

I hottest day here sucked too.....I think it was just over 40c with about 1000% humidity!

It does get to minus here in Dec, Jan, Feb though, and I HATE it!


----------



## Trap-isaurus (Oct 29, 2002)

minus what?? our lowest point is usually in January when we hit minus 40 for a few weeks


----------



## kuso (Oct 29, 2002)

I live at the bottom of the mountains so minus 8 or 9 is usually max....I think the worst around here has been -15...thats night time of course....it was painful too! lol


----------



## Trap-isaurus (Oct 30, 2002)

LOL Ill send ya a genuine Canadian Parka....and a proper tooque!! -15 is still short weather for me buddy


----------



## kuso (Oct 30, 2002)

-15 in shorts I think I`d have three adams apples


----------



## Robboe (Oct 30, 2002)

So is everyone best friends now or something?!


----------



## kuso (Oct 30, 2002)

LOL....dunno.....LP took off


----------



## ~LP~ (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by BjUaFyF *_
> 
> 
> So far I have seen a picture of GoPro and from the looks of him he knows what he is talking about...you on the other hand I have seen nothing of other than completely witless posting.



Wow, great post brother.  I see you are a pretty big guy too, so you must be very smart!  I guess size would indicate that someone is smart, and knows all there is to know about muscle phsyiology, and biochemistry then eh?  I will try and type this message with smallish words so you can follow along.  There are many ways to lift.  Most of those ways will get you results.  Over a long period of time training you can get great results unless you are on some rediculously poorly thought out program.  Does this mean the way you got there is the best way?  Or does that mean if you had done things differently you probably wouldn't be able to lift more?  Hell no.  I think what you fail to realize, is that when we have advanced discussions, we are talking about very small percentages of cause and effect.  One way will work, but then we examine it with a microscope and find ways to improve a routine or diet or whatever.  This may lead to only a 5% better gain in result or none, or much more.  But to say a physique is all you need to believe in someone's concepts is a very foolish thing.  Arnold was huge, but if you look at half the crap he said, he just plain had no clue what was going on with his body.

As for me just flaming someone, obviously I didn't use simple enough english for that either.  My original point was that one person is not enough to test out something.  Of course, I am interested in hearing results, but the results to date seemed to me to be easily skewed by many different factors.  As Snakeyes said, n=1 is not sufficient.  Not that I expect gopro to go out and get an army to test it on...but I just like to post this stuff so others stop and think, before they run to their local supp shops and buy a product based on one persons view.

Kuso, I don't see why from board to board I need the same name.  I have used ElPietro on mm.com, wbb, and a couple other boards.  Most people just shorten it to "LP" so that's what I used here.  Usually people who would know my posts would recognize this name and the way I answer and easily know who I am.  Generally people think I'm a bit mean or offensive in my posts...but I am simply not wasting my time sugar coating things.  If we are debating, I can easily debate without name calling and the such, but I'd expect the same courtesy back.

WBB is back and running, but I came back here.  And as long as I'm permitted will probably still come back here.  This board didn't seem to active yesterday...but maybe it was just slow.  I don't have time for 1,001 forums, but if I think this board is worth taking a closer look at for myself.  I don't know why you brought up wbb though, it's not like because someone posts on one site they are against other sites.  Knowledge is knowledge, regardless of source.


----------



## gopro (Oct 30, 2002)

This post is meant for the "3 stooges...Maki (training god...thats really funny), El Pietro (LP...loser personified), and Snake Eyes (still wondering who at WBB this lady is)..."


Well I'm glad to see that my thread has been ruined by a few psychologically distraught children. Oh, and believe me, you guys have mental/emotional problems. Anybody who literally seeks to try and do anything possible to dicredit another individual has serious issues to work out. Having graduated with a degree in psychology, at least I can sympathize somewhat with you 3, and try and understand that the mental handicaps you suffer MAY not be your fault. It could be genetic, or be the result of your environment. Either way, with medication and perhaps some intensive therapy, you can learn to feel better about yourselves and not have the need to feed your insecurities by needlessly and aimlessly attacking others. You have added nothing beneficial to a thread that was meant to help others. I'm just glad that you guys have another "home site" to go ruin.


----------



## ~LP~ (Oct 30, 2002)

I see even though other members disagree with some of your statements you neglect to include them.  All I attacked was your argument and methods, not your personage...yet you do so here.  Perhaps you should point your psychology degree at yourself for a second, as you seem insecure.  Is that why you mainly stay on a site where it seems everyone thinks you actually know what you are talking about?  I remember a training article you wrote on WBB that was fraught with just plain "wrong" statements, even to the point where you speak of training muscle fibre types that don't even exist in human anatomy.  Perhaps your degree should be in something other than psychology before you start claiming to be so knowledgeable in physiology and biochemistry.  You are a big man, just not a smart one.


----------



## kuso (Oct 30, 2002)

Originally posted by ~LP~ 


"Kuso, I don't see why from board to board I need the same name.  I have used ElPietro on mm.com "

I just like to know who I`m talking to is all....nothing else........I do remember you from MM.com too.


 "I can easily debate without name calling and the such, but I'd expect the same courtesy back. "

You may well be ABLE to, but until you stop taking cheap shots in every post you make, you`ll have trouble getting any courtesy back from anyone here.

"I don't know why you brought up wbb though, it's not like because someone posts on one site they are against other sites."

Do a search....or ask your buddies 

"Knowledge is knowledge, regardless of source." 

Now that is something I agree 100% with...........not even a hair to slpit


----------



## Trap-isaurus (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> 
> 
> Wow, great post brother.  I see you are a pretty big guy too, so you must be very smart!  I guess size would indicate that someone is smart, and knows all there is to know about muscle phsyiology, and biochemistry then eh?  I will try and type this message with smallish words so you can follow along.  There are many ways to lift.  Most of those ways will get you results.  Over a long period of time training you can get great results unless you are on some rediculously poorly thought out program.  Does this mean the way you got there is the best way?  Or does that mean if you had done things differently you probably wouldn't be able to lift more?  Hell no.  I think what you fail to realize, is that when we have advanced discussions, we are talking about very small percentages of cause and effect.  One way will work, but then we examine it with a microscope and find ways to improve a routine or diet or whatever.  This may lead to only a 5% better gain in result or none, or much more.  But to say a physique is all you need to believe in someone's concepts is a very foolish thing.  Arnold was huge, but if you look at half the crap he said, he just plain had no clue what was going on with his body.
> ...



I Beleive what my eyes tell me, you're fuckin retarded to beleive that Arnold didn't know what was going on with his body half the time, pictures of the dude from 16 and than again at 19 - 20 prove otherwise. Post some pics here idiot and lets have a look at how your "super duper" training program has done for you.

If you had an original point in that fuckin post it was lost in absolute childeshness, you really think that everyone here is stampeding down to GNC and that we all sit on the edge of our seats waitin g for him to post a new product name so we can run and purchase it.....wake up moron, I respect gopros opinion a hell of alot more than you but of course like everyone else here I will look into product myslef. You post that stuff so everyone doesn't run to thier local sup shop eh, you think after six-8 posts half of which were retarded flames people will respect your opinion. I've got and Idea just go back to wbb where people swallow garbage like the shit you have posted here.....or hve you been banned from there as well.........


----------



## MONSTER4X4 (Oct 30, 2002)

OK, I dont' feel like sifting through the BS to find what I am looking for.

Gopro, are you taking this stuff according to label directions(minus the part about eating micellean) or are you just taking it once a day?  

I bought what was left of a jug from one of my buddies in the supp industry who didn't like the taste.  I ended up with citrus flavor and its tastes like crap, makes me wanna puke (although not so much anymore), and gives me an awesome pump even more so than V12, although I really like V12 too.  I am only taking it postworkout with a serving of San's Volumass which amounts to 4-5 times a week.  Do you think I am shortchanging myself by taking it less and not necessarily by the book?


----------



## Trap-isaurus (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> 
> 
> Knowledge is knowledge, regardless of source.



Unless the source has a stick up his ass and refuses to post anything with any usefull information......LP.


----------



## Trap-isaurus (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> This post is meant for the "3 stooges...Maki (training god...thats really funny), El Pietro (LP...loser personified), and Snake Eyes (still wondering who at WBB this lady is)..."
> 
> 
> Well I'm glad to see that my thread has been ruined by a few psychologically distraught children. Oh, and believe me, you guys have mental/emotional problems. Anybody who literally seeks to try and do anything possible to dicredit another individual has serious issues to work out. Having graduated with a degree in psychology, at least I can sympathize somewhat with you 3, and try and understand that the mental handicaps you suffer MAY not be your fault. It could be genetic, or be the result of your environment. Either way, with medication and perhaps some intensive therapy, you can learn to feel better about yourselves and not have the need to feed your insecurities by needlessly and aimlessly attacking others. You have added nothing beneficial to a thread that was meant to help others. I'm just glad that you guys have another "home site" to go ruin.



why not delete this thread and start it again? it has filled up with 2 extra pages of Bullshit.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by BjUaFyF *_
> 
> 
> I Beleive what my eyes tell me, you're fuckin retarded to beleive that Arnold didn't know what was going on with his body half the time, pictures of the dude from 16 and than again at 19 - 20 prove otherwise. Post some pics here idiot and lets have a look at how your "super duper" training program has done for you.




Just playing devil's advocate here:

Arnold started drugs at a very early age.

Rumoured as early as 13 years old, but definately between ages 16-18.


----------



## ~LP~ (Oct 30, 2002)

Bj you are gay and dumb.  Keep going by what your eyes tell you.  Oh I saw that pic of you failing on your 3 plate press.  Good job.  Next time maybe a pic of you pushing the wait at least past your sticking point and not with the bar already out of balance might convince me.  But don't get mad...I'm sure it's just the "test" talking.  There there.  You are one of those dumb meatheads who just listen and do what the biggest guy says I'm guessing.  It would be great for you to stfu.  My number of posts means nothing...unless you think posts on a site = intelligence.  If you are going to be a dumbsh!t why not just f*ck off.  Why would I post pics for you when you are just going to be a jackoff anyway.  I have posted pics before, so I don't hide behind my screen if that's what you think, but I also don't use my pics regardless of how I look, to back up weak arguments.  Maybe you should have spent more time in school, and less time in the gym you f*cking retard.


----------



## gopro (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> I see even though other members disagree with some of your statements you neglect to include them.  All I attacked was your argument and methods, not your personage...yet you do so here.  Perhaps you should point your psychology degree at yourself for a second, as you seem insecure.  Is that why you mainly stay on a site where it seems everyone thinks you actually know what you are talking about?  I remember a training article you wrote on WBB that was fraught with just plain "wrong" statements, even to the point where you speak of training muscle fibre types that don't even exist in human anatomy.  Perhaps your degree should be in something other than psychology before you start claiming to be so knowledgeable in physiology and biochemistry.  You are a big man, just not a smart one.



LP...you attacked nothing. Your attack was useless and only meant to try and bring me down. If you look at this thread, and how it started out you will see that I never mentioned how awesome I thought or think PE is. I only began to report the results that were beginning to manifest. However, if you read carefully you would see that I said that although my results were encouraging, that it was STILL too early on to tell anything definitive.

I have experimented with just about every supplement in existence and only a handful have produced ANY meaningful results. When I try out a new supplement I make sure a few basic things are in place...I take my bodyfat, my bodyweight, and have record of all of my lifts. I make sure NOTHING else changes in my routine...diet, supps (except for the one tested), sleep patterns, training program, etc. I then record EVERTHING from how the supp makes me feel to how it affects my workouts to daily weight fluctuations to every other bit of pertinent info I feel is needed.

I then test the supp for a minimum of 8 weeks. I then retake bodyfat, bodyweight, check every workout, etc, etc. Then, if the supplement shows some promise I will test it out on clients to expand my "study base." Aside from actually performing a "lab experiment," I know of no one who tests supps so carefully.

The results I reported were real and rather significant. The fact that I mentioned greater pumps is not so unusual and is something that after training for 15 years of training I can mark quite accurately (as in my training logs I also rate my pumps on a scale of 1-10). If you can't feel the difference from workout to workout after training for several years, than you are doing soemthing wrong.

As far as the strength gain. Sorry, those numbers if you read them are too significant to ignore. I had a similar feeling as is described to me by steroid users after they start a cycle...the weights just felt lighter.

Now I said...I made sure I said, that it is still too early to tell anything for sure...that I would need more time, but that I was encouraged. PE has NOT proven itself to me at this point, but it is sure ahead of most of the crap I've used on this market.

Now, if you do not have anything constructive to say...something that will actually help the members of this site, than stay over at WBB and keep your negativity over there.


----------



## gopro (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by MONSTER4X4 *_
> OK, I dont' feel like sifting through the BS to find what I am looking for.
> 
> Gopro, are you taking this stuff according to label directions(minus the part about eating micellean) or are you just taking it once a day?
> ...



I am going to start another thread about this. I will answer your query there.


----------



## kuso (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> 
> 
> I can easily debate without name calling and the such, but I'd expect the same courtesy back.






> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> Bj you are gay and dumb.  Keep going by what your eyes tell you.  Oh I saw that pic of you failing on your 3 plate press.  Good job.  Next time maybe a pic of you pushing the wait at least past your sticking point and not with the bar already out of balance might convince me.  But don't get mad...I'm sure it's just the "test" talking.  There there.  You are one of those dumb meatheads who just listen and do what the biggest guy says I'm guessing.  It would be great for you to stfu.  My number of posts means nothing...unless you think posts on a site = intelligence.  If you are going to be a dumbsh!t why not just f*ck off.  Why would I post pics for you when you are just going to be a jackoff anyway.  I have posted pics before, so I don't hide behind my screen if that's what you think, but I also don't use my pics regardless of how I look, to back up weak arguments.  Maybe you should have spent more time in school, and less time in the gym you f*cking retard.


----------



## ~LP~ (Oct 30, 2002)

Yes, well i am entitled to defend myself.  If an idiot tries to speak up, I will give it right back to him.


----------



## Tank316 (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> Yes, well i am entitled to defend myself.  If an idiot tries to speak up, I will give it right back to him.


you must talk to yourself then.


----------



## ~LP~ (Oct 30, 2002)

Gopro,  I'm sorry you feel like I'm trying to bring you down.  Does this mean anytime I debate with you my intentions will only be to discredit you?  Yes I do realize you qualified your statements by saying it's too early to tell...and that's cool.  It was just when you said my thinking was WRONG in bold, and that you were immune to such things as placebo effect and such, that I took exception to.  I am also very skepticle on new supplements, and also am against most of the ones on the market now...so I was just doing what I always do when people get too excited about some new miracle supp.

No worries...I'm pretty much done with this thread.  Although, I don't think I have a negative attitude, just a skepticle one, that will doubt most of what is claimed by a supp company until I've seen sufficient evidence to the contrary.


----------



## ~LP~ (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Tank316 *_
> you must talk to yourself then.



Wow, this site is filled with intelligent whitty members.  I'm glad people like you are hear...I will definitely be able to learn a lot from you.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> 
> 
> Wow, this site is filled with intelligent whitty members.  I'm glad people like you are hear...I will definitely be able to learn a lot from you.




"Here", you dumbass.


----------



## kuso (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> 
> 
> Wow, this site is filled with intelligent whitty members.  I'm glad people like you are hear...I will definitely be able to learn a lot from you.



You haven`t exactly filled us with knowledge yourself there.

Had you typed that post above this one first up we could have saved two pages of shit.


----------



## kuso (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> 
> "Here", you dumbass.


----------



## Tank316 (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> 
> 
> Wow, this site is filled with intelligent whitty members.  I'm glad people like you are hear...I will definitely be able to learn a lot from you.


seems to me that you're not here to learn shit, just to start shit.


----------



## ~LP~ (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> 
> "Here", you dumbass.



Chigs you b@stard!  

I'm going to ignore the rest of the comments...as they don't really say anything that needs responding too.  Perhaps you guys are used to not arguing with Gopro, and therefore cannot comprehend such a thing, but I don't care who makes a statement, if I disagree I will say so.

If I just wanted to start shit I wouldn't be trying to end this argument now would I?


----------



## Tank316 (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> 
> 
> Chigs you b@stard!
> ...


thats fine.


----------



## kuso (Oct 30, 2002)

What the fuck is it with you and gopro.....do we HAVE to argue with everything he says just to keep you happy? 

Because we may chose to pic our fights rather than just search for a chance it makes us yesmen?

You really do seem to have a keg of that shit gopro is using stuck up your ass here. Whatever valid point you tried to make is becoming less and less so with this nonsense, and more obvious that it WAS infact just a childish attack.


----------



## gopro (Oct 30, 2002)

Give up Kuso. They are what they are.


----------



## animal56 (Oct 30, 2002)

The silly thing about this all, is that they argue their points from a "scientific" and "psychological" perspective, which everybody who has half a wit, realizes that science of any sort is merely theory, (especially Psychology, which cannot even be considered any more of a science than creationism.).

I'd rather take GoPro's advice, than some guy who wears a labcoat and weighs 100lbs, considering GoPro (or any other competitor) actually did the experiment, and pursued the career that gave him his current physique.

While I won't hang off of GoPro's every word, I will certainly consider his remarks when making my decision.

As an alternate example, Ron MacLean vs. Wayne Gretzky (Hockey fans/people know who they are). ex. Ron MacLean claims that a good hockey player is well rounded in every way, physically and skill wise. Wayne Gretzky meanwhile, being a smaller, weaker player, currently holds most NHL records. Who do you listen to? The guy who watches the game from a TV monitor, or the guy who is a Living Legend?

'Nuff said.


----------



## Training God (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> This post is meant for the "3 stooges...Maki (training god...thats really funny), El Pietro (LP...loser personified), and Snake Eyes (still wondering who at WBB this lady is)..."
> 
> Well I'm glad to see that my thread has been ruined by a few psychologically distraught children. Oh, and believe me, you guys have mental/emotional problems. Anybody who literally seeks to try and do anything possible to dicredit another individual has serious issues to work out. Having graduated with a degree in psychology, at least I can sympathize somewhat with you 3, and try and understand that the mental handicaps you suffer MAY not be your fault. It could be genetic, or be the result of your environment. Either way, with medication and perhaps some intensive therapy, you can learn to feel better about yourselves and not have the need to feed your insecurities by needlessly and aimlessly attacking others. You have added nothing beneficial to a thread that was meant to help others. I'm just glad that you guys have another "home site" to go ruin.



*** Name calling is a very mature attitude to take especially for a moderator. Instead of spending time slinging insults and attacking us personally you should stick to being more positive.

If you had read my posts you would have seen I was not attacking you but pointing something out. Unfortunately it seems you have a difficult time comprehending this. 

The other site you are referring does quite well if you ask me. Judging by the number of our members and the total number of posts in each of our forums the site is far from being ruined.


----------



## Training God (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by animal56 *_
> 
> As an alternate example, Ron MacLean vs. Wayne Gretzky (Hockey fans/people know who they are). ex. Ron MacLean claims that a good hockey player is well rounded in every way, physically and skill wise. Wayne Gretzky meanwhile, being a smaller, weaker player, currently holds most NHL records. Who do you listen to? The guy who watches the game from a TV monitor, or the guy who is a Living Legend?
> 
> 'Nuff said.



*** Who would you listen to, a coach or a hockey player?

Nuff said.


----------



## ~LP~ (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by animal56 *_
> The silly thing about this all, is that they argue their points from a "scientific" and "psychological" perspective, which everybody who has half a wit, realizes that science of any sort is merely theory, (especially Psychology, which cannot even be considered any more of a science than creationism.).



Ok, I thought I was done with this thread...but people keep seeming to want to continue it.

The statement above is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read, in my entire life...ever.  I guess you weren't there for intro to science, where the first question is, "what is science."  I'm not even going to bother correcting you.

Even your Wayne Gretzkey comment is dumb.  Is Wayne Gretzky weak?  Not really.  In comparison to some of the brutes or some of the bigger guys sure.  But I'm sure when anyone makes a wide sweeping theory, there are always exceptions.  But I have no idea why you brought that up.  Did you think it would make you look smart.

And damn you for having the same birthday as me.

Oh and Kuso, I don't get your little outburst.  I've argued with Gopro exactly once here.  So your little theory of me hunting him down all over the net to start arguments is a bit overly dramatic don't you think?


----------



## Arnold (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by animal56 *_
> The silly thing about this all, is that they argue their points from a "scientific" and "psychological" perspective, which everybody who has half a wit, realizes that science of any sort is merely theory, (especially Psychology, which cannot even be considered any more of a science than creationism.).



well, I agree psychology is very theoretical, but there are some scientific aspects of psychology, such as in behavioral psych, e.g. conditioning. 
Just as some of the members posting in this thread seem to be conditioned to argue! 

not sure why I posted that....


----------



## Fade (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> 
> 
> Wow, great post brother.  I see you are a pretty big guy too, so you must be very smart!  I guess size would indicate that someone is smart, and knows all there is to know about muscle phsyiology, and biochemistry then eh?


No. It shows they've done something right in their training and have more real world experience than and skinny kid that just decided to read a book.


----------



## Fade (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Training God *_
> 
> 
> *** Who would you listen to, a coach or a hockey player?
> ...


In BB the player is often their own coach.


----------



## Robboe (Oct 30, 2002)

This is going in a good direction now.

Again, being devil's advocate here, this ain't directed at one poster here, but size != knowledge.


----------



## Arnold (Oct 30, 2002)

size does not equal knowledge.


----------



## kuso (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> 
> 
> Oh and Kuso, I don't get your little outburst.  I've argued with Gopro exactly once here.  So your little theory of me hunting him down all over the net to start arguments is a bit overly dramatic don't you think?




Maybe if you go back and read your posts you will understand it................it has nothing to do with gopro, and I don`t believe I have said you stalk him over the net, merely that this was a childish attack.


----------



## Training God (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Fade99 *_
> 
> In BB the player is often their own coach.



*** My point being, that in every sport the percentage of coaches who have never played the sport at the same level as the players they coach is still respectable.

Look at Duchaine, Lyle Mcdonald, Par Deus, Charles Staley, Ian King, Ellington Darden, Dr Wayne Wescott and many others.

All have a vast amount of experience and knowledge yet have mediocure physiques that pale in comparison to most bodybuilders. Even I'm bigger then all of them and I'm not that big.


----------



## Snake_Eyes (Oct 30, 2002)

I have to say this entire thread bothers me.

Gopro, why do you have such personal issues when people question you? Can you not accept and respond to critique professionally, without resorting to childish insults? As a businessman I'd think you'd know better.

If you have an issue about the points I, or anyone, raised, then address them. I'll be more than happy to listen. The insults only weaken your stance.

I'll ask again: What makes you think, despite any preconceived notions you may feel you have, that you are exempt from a placebo effect? And with that in consideration, why do you feel you are also exempt from the rules of research design?


----------



## Trap-isaurus (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> Bj you are gay and dumb.  Keep going by what your eyes tell you.  Oh I saw that pic of you failing on your 3 plate press.  Good job.  Next time maybe a pic of you pushing the wait at least past your sticking point and not with the bar already out of balance might convince me.  But don't get mad...I'm sure it's just the "test" talking.  There there.  You are one of those dumb meatheads who just listen and do what the biggest guy says I'm guessing.  It would be great for you to stfu.  My number of posts means nothing...unless you think posts on a site = intelligence.  If you are going to be a dumbsh!t why not just f*ck off.  Why would I post pics for you when you are just going to be a jackoff anyway.  I have posted pics before, so I don't hide behind my screen if that's what you think, but I also don't use my pics regardless of how I look, to back up weak arguments.  Maybe you should have spent more time in school, and less time in the gym you f*cking retard.



Hmmm, LOL wow that made no sense what so ever, sticking point eh, next time I suppose the video camera will have to come to the gym with me  yes I am a dumb meathead who listens to the biggest guys, you see there is a reason they got big. Im not taking any test but thanks for reading my journal ,
My eyes tell me you're soft and fat and I'ld really love to give you the chance to practice some of that muay thai......Two degrees say I spent enuff time in school, but judging from the following pics maybe you should be the one hitting the gym a little more 


I love the utter lack of any intellegince in that expression, hopefully thats not how you walk around all day, nice photoshop on the tri too


----------



## Trap-isaurus (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Training God *_
> 
> 
> *** Name calling is a very mature attitude to take especially for a moderator. Instead of spending time slinging insults and attacking us personally you should stick to being more positive.
> ...




who started the jackoff and dumb and gay shit buddy!!


----------



## Trap-isaurus (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> size does not equal knowledge.




No it doesn't But IMO it demonstrates practical experience.


----------



## Training God (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by BjUaFyF *_
> 
> 
> 
> who started the jackoff and dumb and gay shit buddy!!



*** I don't know, why don't you read over the entire thread and get back to me.

Instead of insinuating you might want to see who's at fault first and then point the finger at them.
Mmmmkay?


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## kuso (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Training God *_
> 
> 
> *** I don't know, why don't you read over the entire thread and get back to me.
> ...



TG.......gopro attacked you, LP, and Snake_eyes....thats it!

I believe Snake_eyes has only posted remarks towards gopro.

You two on the other hand have made constant negative comments towards every member of this board, as you said yesterday, maybe it is just the rude way you type, but people will be offended and react to rudeness.<----closest I could get to pointing


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Training God *_
> 
> 
> *** I don't know, why don't you read over the entire thread and get back to me.
> ...




I just did, do you often mimick gay cartoon charecters?


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## Training God (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> 
> 
> TG.......gopro attacked you, LP, and Snake_eyes....thats it!



*** BjUaFyF your last post was irrational.


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## kuso (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Training God *_
> 
> 
> *** BjUaFyF your last post was irrational.



Um....why quote me and the talk to Bj?


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## Training God (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> 
> You two on the other hand have made constant negative comments towards every member of this board, as you said yesterday, maybe it is just the rude way you type, but people will be offended and react to rudeness.<----closest I could get to pointing



*** No I have not,  please show me some proof where I might have insulted the fine people of this board?

You might want to remember there is a difference between what one might deem an insult or being the truth. I have never called someone a name or put them down.


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## kuso (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Training God *_
> 
> 
> *** No I have not,  please show me some proof where I might have insulted the fine people of this board?
> ...



As mentioned yesterday, your comments about our flawed logic, and lack of being able to think for ourselves is an insult. You may not have ment it that way, but it is none the less. And, you cannot simply deem that as being the truth. You have no idea what we think.

Either way, we delt with this issue yesterday, my point was simply that it takes more than one to fight, and the insults were not all going in one direction, for from it.


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## Training God (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> 
> 
> As mentioned yesterday, your comments about our flawed logic, and lack of being able to think for ourselves is an insult. You may not have ment it that way, but it is none the less. And, you cannot simply deem that as being the truth. You have no idea what we think.
> ...



*** Talk about being a sensitive male. I'd hate to see what would happen if I actually called you name. I did not insult you, I merely offended you because you do not see what I see.

Someting that is offensive is not an insult.


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## kuso (Oct 30, 2002)

OK then. Mr Superiority once again.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 30, 2002)

Can't we all just get along?


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## Training God (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Can't we all just get along?


*** I'm getting along with you aren't I?

I'd like to think that although we might disagree on a topic/s  that we can still handle things in a mature fashion.

And yes I am superior, hence my name, "Training God."


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## ~LP~ (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by BjUaFyF *_
> 
> 
> Hmmm, LOL wow that made no sense what so ever, sticking point eh, next time I suppose the video camera will have to come to the gym with me  yes I am a dumb meathead who listens to the biggest guys, you see there is a reason they got big. Im not taking any test but thanks for reading my journal ,
> ...



My god, you are officially now, the dumbest fuck, I have ever seen on the net.  And the net is a big place so that is saying a lot.  I'm glad you took the time copy a pic of me.  I'm flattered you managed to find it all the way to wbb...or was it Kuso that sent it to you?  Saw him snooping in my journal as well today.

Well let's see how I can respond to you.  Your degrees must be in acting like a fucking idiot, and not knowing one thing about what the fuck you are saying.

It's funny, you are 5'7" and 263 lbs, I am 5'11" and 250, and you think I'm soft somehow.  Other than your little foray into using fina, I doubt you'd have much on me as far as lifts goes...especially with your 6" ROM on bench because you are just a stubby dumbshit midget.  Oh and I'm lmao at the thai boxing comment.  Buddy, anytime you want a lesson, I will give you a free one.  Really, internet threads are about as gay as you, so why don't you stfu.  As for photoshopping my pics?  Well, I've met 3 people in real life from these forums, and they've all fucking seen me, and two have lifted with me.  So I don't need any BS pics of any kind to prove shit to someone as fucking dumb as you.

How come it looks like you are struggling with 3 plates in that pic, yet you say you can do it for 10 reps in your gay little threads on how much you can lift.  As far as spending time in the gym, at least I can get by on my own without the need to inject.  Faggots who inject and then blab about how much bigger they are then others, when they aren't even fucking bigger really amuse me.  Come to Toronto any time you flaming homo, and I'll be sure to teach you whatever you would like to learn.

Kuso, show me once in this thread, where I attacked someone else first.  I have only responded to these fucking moronic posts.  My first comments were on topic and to gopro.  Then you came in, and then these other troll retards came in.  You guys are a joke.

As for the lab coat comment, now that my pic is up, despite me not given anyone the go ahead to copy and paste it, you can see i'm not some skinny kid in a lab coat.  Believe me when I say I have nothing to prove to you people, but after all the shit you guys have tried to pull here...you have a lot to prove before I have one ounce of respect for any of you.  People know me rather well on WBB and they know I don't fuck around, or BS people, but it seems that is not the case here with some of the fucks here.  I wanted to let this thread drop but some homos had to come back and flap their lips.


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## Training God (Oct 30, 2002)

Dang mang, you got some temper on you.
I love reading your posts. Always a pleasure to read.


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## kuso (Oct 30, 2002)

Dude, you came here with the sole purpose of having some fun and picking some trouble. I`m sure you won`t admit it, but it`s pretty obvious.

Anyway.....this thread has well and truely run it`s course................everyone has said there peice, we can leave it here.


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## ~LP~ (Oct 30, 2002)

Nah, if I wanted to cause trouble, I wouldn't have tried to let this thread drop.  There are people I see here that I used to enjoy posting with that I haven't seen in a while.  Yet everyone has to take a shot.  Well since some personal shots were taken at me, I feel I should at least defend myself.


To BJ:

Next time tuck in your shirt before you run around calling people fat and soft.  Even with gear, you are far from anything fucking resembling lean you homo.


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## animal56 (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Training God *_
> 
> 
> *** Who would you listen to, a coach or a hockey player?
> ...



Your point is well taken. Of course, the coach didn't teach these guys how to skate, the coach merely directs them in the skills of teamwork. 

Where does most of the learning for advanced and skilled professionals come from? 

From my personal experience, I was taught how to skate, not by my hockey coach, but by skilled professionals who have trained in the skills of skating. As well goes for all of my hockey skills. Do bear in mind that I only use hockey as an example, because of my personal experience in the sport.

Similarly, in bodybuilding, who teaches you how to properly lift, use correct techniques, supplementation, routines? Not your doctor or some University kid with a lab coat who studies a hundred different theories, but somebody who is physically fit, such as a trainer, or a pro.

I assume you are a trainer by your nickname. I will bet that you aren't a fat slob, or a skinny geek with glasses. Am I correct? Therefore you are a Training God. I have yet to see an out of shape trainer, but I'm just speaking from experience.

Therefore, the coach in this situation, is someone who is skilled in the sport, and can teach from personal experience.

*On a side note, it's too bad that this whole thread has become an obnoxious lump of insulting and insinuating (I'm not pointing fingers), considering that GoPro was just using it as a medium to share his experiences in hopes that it would help curious members make informed decisions.


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> 
> 
> My god, you are officially now, the dumbest fuck, I have ever seen on the net.  And the net is a big place so that is saying a lot.  I'm glad you took the time copy a pic of me.  I'm flattered you managed to find it all the way to wbb...or was it Kuso that sent it to you?  Saw him snooping in my journal as well today.
> ...



LOL, you crack me up.......I actually will be in toronto in the begining of December and I do plan on looking you up, me and you need to have a "chit chat" please refer to the PM I sent which pretty much states the same......Leaner than you my friend, refer to the av, and if you plan to try and quote me at least do it correctly, I never said I could lift it ten times I said five, in fourth and final set. you wanted to let the thread drop? what just because you decide that it's enuff everyone else is going to listen, well known on wbb for being an idiot I would imagine I have read alot of the shit you have posted and let me just clarify, it's called a seated calf raise, not a sitting down leveraged calf thingy, have a good day and hope to see you soon


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> Nah, if I wanted to cause trouble, I wouldn't have tried to let this thread drop.  There are people I see here that I used to enjoy posting with that I haven't seen in a while.  Yet everyone has to take a shot.  Well since some personal shots were taken at me, I feel I should at least defend myself.
> 
> 
> ...



leaner stronger and more able to satisfy your mom in bed, she said you were a little slow and a shitty lay I now understand why.


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## animal56 (Oct 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> 
> 
> The statement above is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read, in my entire life...ever.  I guess you weren't there for intro to science, where the first question is, "what is science."  I'm not even going to bother correcting you.



Let's see:

Science is the concerted human effort to understand, or to understand better, the history of the natural world and how the natural world works, with observable physical evidence as the basis of that understanding. It is done through observation of natural phenomena, and/or through experimentation that tries to simulate natural processes under controlled conditions. 

*Key word being "try". As well, "to understand better", not to preach as if gospel.




> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> 
> Even your Wayne Gretzkey comment is dumb.  Is Wayne Gretzky weak?  Not really.  In comparison to some of the brutes or some of the bigger guys sure.  But I'm sure when anyone makes a wide sweeping theory, there are always exceptions.  But I have no idea why you brought that up.  Did you think it would make you look smart.



In comparison to the average player, yes, Wayne Gretzky is weak. Most teams would not want a Wayne Gretzky on their hockey team, because of his size. 

The point of this is, as I obviously have to explain it to you, being that you are too bitter and accusatory to understand, is that an unskilled person (Ron MacLean) speaks gospel, and the skilled person (Wayne Gretzky) proves him wrong. Therefore, I, as would many people here (is this a sweeping comment?), would probably not dismiss GoPro (skilled person) as a sponsor bitch like they might a lab technician (possibly unskilled person). 

Keep in mind that the hockey reference was just an example, and not an actual situation. 



> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> And damn you for having the same birthday as me.



Sorry to hear. Aren't you the one who should be damned? After all, I was here first (scientifically speaking of course.  ).



> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> 
> As for the lab coat comment, now that my pic is up, despite me not given anyone the go ahead to copy and paste it, you can see i'm not some skinny kid in a lab coat. Believe me when I say I have nothing to prove to you people, but after all the shit you guys have tried to pull here...you have a lot to prove before I have one ounce of respect for any of you. People know me rather well on WBB and they know I don't fuck around, or BS people, but it seems that is not the case here with some of the fucks here. I wanted to let this thread drop but some homos had to come back and flap their lips.



Aren't *you* being a little dramatic, cupcake? The lab coat comment wasn't directed at you, sweetheart. 

If you have nothing to prove here, why are you being so defensive and insulting? And why did you come back if you wanted the thread to drop? And why do we care if *you* have respect for us? Seriously, the dribble on your plate will not cause many people to lose sleep tonight.

However, it's obvious you just want the last word, so you can have it. Cheers.


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## lean_n_76er (Oct 30, 2002)

Well, despite all the BS that I just had to go through to try and locate any usefull information in this thread... which there was in the begining.  This is NOT a cheap shot at ANYONE, so I'm not looking for any replys!

Actually this is kind of funny in a sick sort of way.


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 30, 2002)




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## animal56 (Oct 30, 2002)

Always ready to make light of any situation, right 76er?


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## Training God (Oct 31, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by animal56 *_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gopro (Oct 31, 2002)

I tried to fish through here because I was shocked to see that there have been 137 posts made in what was meant to be a rather simple thread. My final comments on this whole mess are these....

-First and foremost, I wish to thank all the members that stood by my side and supported me during this childish onslaught. 

-Second, to Snake eyes...I don't care what study you have read...I still believe that there are those that are basically immune to the placebo effect in certain situations. Believe me, I know all about this topic as I studied it extensively in school. I have plenty of clinical psychology experience. You can dispute me if you wish...I know what I know.

-In general...size does NOT = intelligence, however, in the case of bodybuilding...more specifically, drug free bodybuilding...when an individual can take his body and totally and completely transform it, using nothing but training, food, and supps...that person is worth listening to. Bodybuilding is both an art and a science...especially for drug free trainees...and the real lab is in the gym. That forces that individual to be his own "scientist," "psychologist," "coach," "teacher," "theorist," and much more...and those things take a strong, wise, and intelligent intellect.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 31, 2002)

Well, time to throw my hat in the ring.  I am going to address several things.

First, this thread was an informative ONE MAN'S opinion of a new suppliment.  Too bad the thread was destroyed, cause I was curious to hear about it.

Second, the comments demonstrating that ONE MAN's opinion were just that -- the OPINION of one man -- were valid and constructive, and, I thought, made for an interesting debate.

Third, unfortunately -- probably due to some history I am unaware of -- those comments were taken harshly by some and this thread had since degenerated to what it is.

Fourth, I think all parties who have engage in personal attacks of any kind are blameworthy for the threads degeneration.  Comments such as "you are soft" or "you are gay" are neither helpful, constructive or based on anything resembling net etiquite.

Fifth, what is left of this thread, or what can be mined from the BS are two interesting topics, however.  (A)  Who should one listen to for "advice" in bodybuilding, and (B) whether someone can be immune from a placebo effect.



> _*Originally posted by Training God *_
> *** Exactly, but the size of someone should not determine what kind of knowledge they posses. In my last post I mentioned some
> professionals who are not considered big by bodybuilding standards yet they posses quite a bit of knowledge that thousands of people hold in high regard. I personally don't care how big the guy is. If someone can present me with information that produces results that's what matters.



My opinion -- size IS NOT knowledge, but it certainly demostrates knowledge.  One can theorize all s/he/ wants, one can show through various scientifically controlled studies of how this suppliment effects that hormone, but until one can show that these theories or even scientific truths actually effect the human physique in a way that is GENERALLY superior to other methods, it is JUST a theory.

When an individual has been able to "make it work" with there own body, it is a credential, an element of proof that s/he has SOME knowledge.

Are there better ways?  Faster ways?  More efficient ways?  Almost always the answer will be yes.  But it is boards like these that let us examine one individuals path to success and determine whether it might be a road we should take.

As to the placebo effect, I don't think anyone is immune.  I know I am not.  Hell just picking up a magazine and reading what may be a useless article could inspire me to lift harder the next time in the gym.  But, GoPro, or anyone else MAY be immune and is certainly entitled to believe and state that he is immune.  That belief certainly should not offend anyone, and of course, we are entitled to disagree.


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## ~LP~ (Oct 31, 2002)

I responded to your PM butterball.  Actually a seated calf raise is not what I'm using.  This machine has a five inch arm on the front which increases the minute arm which then makes whatever weight you put on it much more than what it truly is to lift.  I don't know if you understand this...maybe intro to physiques may help you.

Animal, I have very little to say to you.  You are exactly one year older than me...but seem to be about 10 years dumber.  Note in your definition of science, you have "observable physical evidence."  I guess you just glossed over that point.  If we all ignored science as easily as you seem to, I guess we'd all still think the world is flat too.

If you take a look at this thread...there  a lot of people in here...that had no comments on the original topic, yet now they are here?  Why?  Most likely they just want to play internet tough guy for one reason or another.  I thought this might be a good board to start posting at...but I see there is a lot of insecurity here, and a lot of BS.  Hopefully things can improve, but I dunno if that will happen or not.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 31, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by ~LP~ *_
> I responded to your PM butterball.  Actually a seated calf raise is not what I'm using.  This machine has a five inch arm on the front which increases the minute arm which then makes whatever weight you put on it much more than what it truly is to lift.  I don't know if you understand this...maybe intro to physiques may help you.
> 
> Animal, I have very little to say to you.  You are exactly one year older than me...but seem to be about 10 years dumber.  Note in your definition of science, you have "observable physical evidence."  I guess you just glossed over that point.  If we all ignored science as easily as you seem to, I guess we'd all still think the world is flat too.
> ...



LP, this is a disappointing response.  You have gone from engaging in an insulting EXCHANGE with a few members to lumping the whole IM community, our character and intelligence in one basket.

You are here because you choose to be.  If this isn't the board for you, that is fine.  If you'd like to stick around, some of us would appreciate not making sweeping disparaging remarks (or individual disparaging remarks even).

BTW, BF you are not exempt from these comments either and do not do the board justice engaging in this banter and internet threats.


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## ~LP~ (Oct 31, 2002)

Twin Peak, I did not mean it as a wide sweeping statement.  If you felt that is what I meant I apologize.  I was saying that I get into a debate with one or two members, and then others come in to take shots at me as well.  I can easily debate without resulting to insults...but if others are going to start insulting me I'm not going to hold back.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 31, 2002)

Thanks for clarifying that, but it does sound that way, which may be part of the problem.


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