# Tendon health



## Mudge (Dec 8, 2003)

Tendon Health

While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man. 

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it. 

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon. 

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon. 

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose. 

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth. 

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn. 

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited. 

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood 

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial. 

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca. 

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing. 

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are: 

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days 

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem. 

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures. 

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically. 

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you.


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## Mudge (Dec 8, 2003)

But unfortunately, hGH can cause arthralgia.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=arthralgia


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## Rocco32 (Dec 8, 2003)

Excuse my ignorance, but this sounds very interesting since I think I have a real problem with joint and tendon health. Are these drugs legal or not?


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## Mudge (Dec 8, 2003)

For prescription, otherwise it would be in the supplements section.

Drugs are regulated, supplements much less.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 8, 2003)

So I would need to get a Rx for those things. Go to an Ortho Dr to get it?


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## Mudge (Dec 8, 2003)

Some kind of doctor yep.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 8, 2003)

Do you think that would help with tendonitis? I feel I get  tendonitis because my muscles handle more weight than do my tendons.


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## Mudge (Dec 8, 2003)

Possibly, I have forced myself to simply drop the weight a bit and slow the reps down on most lifts, back day kills my bicep tendons.

Since I am not taking HRT levels of test though, supposedly I am inhibiting collagen synthesis.



> While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 8, 2003)

Thanks Mudge!


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## Supermans Daddy (Dec 8, 2003)

Would adequan, be of any aid to the tendon problem?


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## Mudge (Dec 8, 2003)

Someone on another board brought it up, I dont remember how much he is using though.


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## Supermans Daddy (Dec 9, 2003)

Perhaps this may be of help to someone on this issue                    FAST ACCESS TO THE JOINTS: Beneficial levels of Adequan are already at work in all major joints within two hours after intramuscular injection, with even greater uptake (up to 73% higher) in joint tissues that are inflamed or diseased. LONG-TERM EFFECTS: Adequan relieves the pain and disability of joint damage, and the relief has been shown to last up to 6 months or longer. BREAKS THE DESTRUCTIVE CYCLE: Adequan binds to damaged cartilage and boosts cartilage metabolism, facilitating repair processes. At the same time, it blocks the action of destructive enzymes that promote joint inflammation, break down the synovial fluid, and attack the cartilage. RENEWS THE JOINT FLUID: Adequan stimulates the synovial membrane to manufacture new synovial fluid to replace the thin, degraded fluid of joint disease. By doing so, Adequan helps lubricate, nourish, and clean the cartilage.

Administration: An initial 8-dose series is recommended: 2 mg/lb intramuscularly twice a week for four weeks. Adequan Canine is packaged in 5 mL (100 mg/mL) multidose vials.


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## Supermans Daddy (Dec 9, 2003)

Here's a little more info for those that may be interested  
First, Adequan has important antiinflammatory effects, so it is able to provide relief from the symptoms of joint damage: heat, swelling, pain and lameness. And Adequan can be found in synovial fluid at full therapeutic levels within only two hours of an intramuscular injection. Also, Adequan is a product with potent ability to block the action of the destructive enzymes that threaten to perpetuate the joint inflammation, attack the cartilage and break down synovial fluid.

Second, Adequan also stimulates the synovial membrane to manufacture new, viscous synovial fluid to replace the thin fluid that was produced when the joint became injured. By improving this fluid, Adequan helps the joint regain its ability to lubricate and guard itself against further inflammation, and helps reestablish nutrition to the cartilage.

And, Adequan attaches itself to damaged cartilage where it has a positive effect on cartilage metabolism. This should favor the cartilage repair process.

Adequan is the only joint treatment proven to reduce the inflammation and pain of degenerative joint disease, but also to help stop the degenerative process while stimulating the production of new joint fluid and new cartilage components. You are no longer just treating symptoms: you're doing something to help stop the degenerative process.

DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION: The recommended dose of Adequan IM in horses is 500mg every 4 days for 28 days intramuscularly. The injection site must be thoroughly cleansed prior to injection. Do not mix Adequan IM with other drugs or solvents.

Comes in 500mg/5ml glass vials.


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## Supermans Daddy (Dec 12, 2003)

I actually met someone recently that has been using adequan,according to the information I got it's the "goods". He also claimed that it worked as a sort of pain reliever? Maybe because it reduced the swelling? Don't know. But thats what was relayed to me. PEACE


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## Mudge (Dec 12, 2003)

I did arms yesterday, and today I did legs (SLDL also) and my bicep tendons were not happy. I may have to give this stuff a shot.

I'll have to order up some glucosamine chondroitin too.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 13, 2003)

I talked to some of the ER Doc's about this stuff and getting a RX and they just laughed at me. They didn't know what these names were until I explained to them.


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## Mudge (Dec 13, 2003)

Adequan is not FDA approved for human use.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 13, 2003)

But Dr's can still prescribe it?


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## Mudge (Dec 13, 2003)

Its for vet use dewd   I am not sure if it is easy to get like fina pellets, heck I may try it though, I know a single person using it so I will see if he will give some info.


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## Mudge (Dec 13, 2003)

> A friend of mine has used and many others this ver product and claim it heals joints permantly in animals and in humans but not yet FDA approved.
> Anyone use this here is info I found in a quick search on it.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mudge (Dec 13, 2003)

> I found this bros (CHECK BOLD PARAGRAPH):
> 
> 
> Reversal of Osteoarthritis by Nutritional Intervention
> ...


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## Supermans Daddy (Dec 13, 2003)

http://www.entirelypets.com/adeq5mlbot.html Here is the easy way to cop. Peace


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## Supermans Daddy (Dec 13, 2003)

I've also been informed,that site injections are'nt needed !


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## Rocco32 (Dec 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mikhal *_
> http://www.entirelypets.com/adeq5mlbot.html Here is the easy way to cop. Peace


Still need a RX to order from this site!


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## Mudge (Dec 13, 2003)

I know of a site that this may be doable, I will have to take a peek. The place I got my fina pellets from, no go.

Did bench today and my tendons are not happy, I put about 10 pounds on my bench every 5 days.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 13, 2003)

This site seems it might be doable: http://discountpetdrugs.com/adeqin5mlinb.html But you'd have to buy what, like 6 or 7 vials.


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## Mudge (Dec 13, 2003)

Looks like this stuff is site injected into the tendon in some cases with a 3 inch needle, fun fun fun! Probably not for the home dude.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 13, 2003)

I work in a hospital. If I get the stuff, i have plenty of people to inject it.


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## Supermans Daddy (Dec 13, 2003)

I must be readin something different, I actually met someone who uses this stuff, and he says that he's never site injected it. I can't remember what size needle he spiked with or even if I asked him to be Honest.I'm no doc ,just kickin it like I get it, But I will get more info on it "from the horse's mouth" if you can dig it PEACE


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## Rocco32 (Dec 14, 2003)

Thanks Mikhal, appreciate it!


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## Mudge (Dec 14, 2003)

The idea is that it is simply most effective when direct, like many things.


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## redwine (Jan 10, 2005)

*Equpoise Vs. Winstrol For Tendons?*

*I was using small amounts(250-200 mg) of enenthate every 7-10 days..think I may have snapped a tendon or two during this time..what is better between Eqiupoise/Winstrol for building tendons/collagen and which is better for sperm?...*


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## redwine (Jan 10, 2005)

*Winstrol VS Equipoise for LIGAMENTS*

*I was using small amounts(200-250 enanthate every 7-10 days),and at this time I believe I snapped one or two tendons...what is better for rebuilding collagen/tendons and why?.....and regards to sperm/natural testosterone production anybody know?*


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## LAM (Jan 10, 2005)

that is a easy question to answer.

winstrol dramatically increase collagen synthesis but it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, you end up with a larger but much weaker tendon.  while equipoise (anavar, primobolan and Long R3 IGF-1) will increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass density.

EQ all the way !


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## Mudge (Jan 10, 2005)

Steroids suppress LH and FSH, they do not increase it. That is what your post cycle is for.


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## 19-chief (Jan 10, 2005)

ok, so if my 1st aas cycle is fast approaching can you guys point to any particular threads or articles that pertain to training while on aas' to avoid tendon/ ligament damage yet maximize hypertrophy? the levels i will be taking are higher than mudge's perameters for therapy... 500mg/wk test e, 400mg/wk eq, and 60mg/ed m5aa the last 4-5 weeks.


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## Pirate! (Jan 10, 2005)

Thanks Mudge! This is a topic that I have been thinking about a lot. I tore a tendon almost all the way off my pelvis doing leg press with my normal weight. Never even knew it was coming. I'm sure my tendons were weakened due to the 1-ad and test cyp I had been using during the preceding months. My only concern going into my current cycle was not tearing a tendon again. All I am using now is sustanon 500/week, but as I go up in weight I fear that I might do damage. I plan to use deca the next time around, and I'm sure I will always include one of these that increase collagen synthesis and integrity. Anyway, this was just the info I was looking for.


			
				Mudge said:
			
		

> While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times


Is this possible? 50 times as in a 5,000% increase?


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## Mudge (Jan 10, 2005)

I think most of it comes from genetics and training habits. Nandi may have some stuff over at CEM about it, dont know off hand.

If you do not currently take glucosamine or glucosamine/chondroitin I'd probably start, its not that expensive.


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## 19-chief (Jan 10, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> I think most of it comes from genetics and training habits. Nandi may have some stuff over at CEM about it, dont know off hand.
> 
> If you do not currently take glucosamine or glucosamine/chondroitin I'd probably start, its not that expensive.


thanks. i'll check. and oh yeah, i take 1500mg/ED w/ my pwo shake.


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## redwine (Jan 11, 2005)

*Adequan*

*I tried the link above to buy Adequan...some guy named "hector" sent me e-mail saying I needed to get Prescription for Adequan...called 4-5 vets in my area none will write prescription for it..how do you get it?..it seems to actually heal not just mask the pain!*


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## Mudge (Jan 12, 2005)

You obviously need a prescription, or an illegal method of obtaining it in which case dont ask here for help doing that. This is a place for information on substances, but not neccessarily how to break the law to obtain it.


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## Pirate! (Jun 26, 2005)

I'm bumping an old thread here, but it is a great topic. I'm curious about how tren affects connective tissue. I'm guessing the rapid increase in strength might be detrimental to tendons, but I haven't really been able to find info on this.

Are there any studies showing the effects of trenbolone on collagen synthesis that someone has reference to?


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## Mudge (Jun 26, 2005)

I dont think anyone cares about collagen synthesis in cattle honestly, but I could be wrong. Remember they are only administered tren for a short while before the slaughter.


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## Pirate! (Jun 26, 2005)

Well, I figured there wouldn't be many studies on how tren affects humans, but it never hurts to ask.


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## Du (Jun 26, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> I dont think anyone cares about collagen synthesis in cattle honestly, but I could be wrong. Remember they are only administered tren for a short while before the slaughter.


I dont think anyone cares about collagen synthesis in animals while on deca or EQ either, but those results are widely known. Why is that?


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## Mudge (Jun 26, 2005)

PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> Well, I figured there wouldn't be many studies on how tren affects humans, but it never hurts to ask.



Other than finaject it has only been marketed as pellets, and animal orals. I think there are 2 or 3 studies on tren in humans, but I've never seen them, and I doubt it covers anything like that.


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## Mudge (Jun 26, 2005)

du510 said:
			
		

> I dont think anyone cares about collagen synthesis in animals while on deca or EQ either, but those results are widely known. Why is that?



Sometimes animals are used as test subjects and we hope that results will mirror those results in humans, but in certain situations we know this is not the case and there is no substitute for a human subject.


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## Tough Old Man (Jun 26, 2005)

Mudge what do you feel would be the better choice of steroid for the older who use it for HRT and have tendon problems. Also At what dosage would you recommend?

Thank you for such a great post.
PT


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## kxf (Oct 15, 2007)

*Kxf*



rock4832 said:


> I work in a hospital. If I get the stuff, i have plenty of people to inject it.



No need to site inject, it is strickly i.m., (intramuscular)
it will gravitate to the injured site. 
Do not inject in your joint capsule, the risk of infection is not worth the reward.


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## sofargone561 (Sep 27, 2011)

HOLY GREAT POST BATMAN!  I will deffinatrly take the time to read this ive been having joint and tendon problems thanks bro!


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## BfB (Jan 5, 2012)

*Deca-Durabolin Weakens Tendons and Collagen*

You can also find the below article in the December 2011 issue of Muscular Development on pages 198-200.

*DECA-DURABOLIN Weakens Tendons and Collagen*

If you are not visiting musculardevelopment.com on a daily basis, you are not getting breaking news and up-to-the-minute information. In a recent thread started in the NO BULL forums a person wrote, ???*How come people don???t train like Ronnie anymore?*??? The thread talked about the change in the training style of all the bodybuilders to more high-volume training and less high-intensity training. With the exception of Branch Warren, there are not many pros who are training with high intensity. It may be because today???s bodybuilders don???t want to risk injury. Here is a list of some of the top bodybuilders who have suffered major injuries or tears during their training careers, off the top of my head:


Dorian Yates: tricep/bicep
Kevin Levrone: pec
Rich Gaspari: pec
Ronnie Coleman: tricep
Berry de May: pec
Chris Dickerson: pec
Tom Platz: bicep
Branch Warren: tricep/quad tendon

Is it just a coincidence that bodybuilders are more likely to suffer injuries because of heavy training, or does the use of anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS) have any impact on tendon/collagen strength? The research is very preliminary, as only a few studies have examined the effects of AAS on tendon and collagen strength. It was shown that anabolic steroids alter the biomechanical properties of tendons and reduce tendon flexibility.(1,2,3)

Some interesting theories have been suggested as why heavy anabolic steroid use can cause tendon injury, which is based around cortisol production and AAS. Researches have demonstrated that AAS combined with tension overload reduced MMP2 activity (MMP2 is a gene responsible for collagen production) and increased serum values of cortisol.(4) During cortisol treatment, the serum levels of genes responsible for collagen production decrease, suggesting that cortisol suppresses the synthesis of collagen production.(5) The reduction in genes for collagen and tendons have been speculated as to why AAS makes bodybuilders susceptible to injuries. New research links the use of high doses of anabolic steroids to tendon and collagen dysfunction, which may make a bodybuilder think twice about training heavily while using anabolics.

*GENE EXPRESSION IN TENDONS/COLLAGEN AFTER HEAVY AAS USE*

Researchers in the European Journal of Applied Physiology examined how heavy use of the anabolic steroid Deca-Durabolin affected collagen strength in rats.  The rats were separated into two groups: natural training and training with heavy anabolic steroid use. The dose the researchers administered to the rats was considered supra-physiological ??? Deca-Durabolin (nandrolone decanoate) 5mg/kg of bodyweight.

The rats were cleverly forced to perform resistance exercise, but you can???t just tell a rat to start benching ??? so the researchers attached weights to the rats??? backs.  They dropped the rats into a tank of water and the rats immediately jumped out of the water as soon as they were dunked. Every week, the researchers gradually made the weight on the rats??? backs heavier and heavier until at the end of seven weeks the weight was 80 percent of their bodyweight. The researchers dropped the rats in the tank so that they performed this for 4 sets x 10 repetitions of ???jumps??? with 30-second rest periods. After that, they rats were sacrificed and the rats??? tendons and collagen were examined for gene expression.

There were some very interesting findings after seven weeks of training with anabolic steroids, compared with the natty (natural) group of rats. *The natty group did not have any biochemical changes in the rat tendon/collagen properties, while the anabolic steroid group had major changes.(6) The Deca-Durabolin group had reduced biochemical properties of genes involving tendon and collagen strength.*

It is interesting to note that AAS administration reduced the accumulation of IGF-1 mRNA levels in some tendon regions, compared to the non-treated, trained group. This decrease of IGF-1 mRNA levels induced by AAS administration may be related to the observed decreases collagen expression when considering the possible connection between IGF-1 and collagen synthesis.(8) The AAS treatment also decreased the MMP-2 mRNA expression (this gene encodes an enzyme for collagen).

The above study is similar to another recently published study, which showed that nandrolone impaired the healing of rotator cuffs of rabbits. In the latter study, male rabbits underwent an incision in the rotator cuff and were divided into groups with anabolic steroids (nandrolone decanoate, 10mg/kg) and natural recovery. Groups that did not receive anabolic steroids showed better healing and more tendon strength compared to groups that received anabolic steroids. Microscopic examination of specimens from the groups with anabolic steroid use showed focal fibroblastic reaction and inflammation, suggesting an impaired healing response.(7)

The key point is that many of these studies were using supraphysiological dosages of steroids that could be like the typical Olympia stack ??? but the new research suggests that a high-volume approach to training with less weight may be a better approach to use for a bodybuilder than a high-intensity, heavy weight program that puts more stress on the tendons and makes them more susceptible to injury.

By Robbie Durand, M.A., Senior Science Editor of Muscular Development


*References:*

1. Evans NA, Bowrey DJ, Newman GR (1998) Ultrastructural analysis of ruptured tendon from anabolic steroid users. _Injury_, 29:769-773.
2: Marqueti RC, Prestes J, Paschoal M, Ramos OH, Perez SE, Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2008) Matrix metallopeptidase 2 activity in tendon regions: effects of mechanical loading exercise associated to anabolic-androgenic steroids, _Eur J Appl Physiol_, 104:1087-1093.
3: Marqueti RC, Prestes J, Wang CC, Ramos OH, Perez SE, Nakagaki WR, Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2010). Biomechanical responses of different rat tendons to nandrolone decanoate and load exercise. _Scand J Med Sci Sports_, 29.
4: Marqueti RC, Parizotto NA, Chriguer RS, Perez SEA, Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2006) Androgenic-anabolic steroids associated with mechanical loading inhibit matrix metallopeptidase activity and affect the remodeling of the Achilles tendon in rats. _Am J Sport Med_, 34:1274-1280.
5: Oikarinen A, Autio P, Vuori J, Va¨a¨na¨nen K, Risteli L, Kiistala U, Risteli J (1992) Systemic glucocorticoid treatment decreases serum concentrations of carboxyterminal propeptide of type I procollagen and aminoterminal propeptide of type III procollagen. _Br J Dermatol_, 126:172-178.
6: Marqueti RC, Heinemeier KM, Durigan JL, de Andrade Perez SE, Schjerling P, Kjaer M, Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS. Erratum to: Gene expression in distinct regions of rat tendons in response to jump training combined with anabolic androgenic steroid administration. _Eur J Appl Physiol_, 2011 Sep 8.
7: Papaspiliopoulos A, Papaparaskeva K, Papadopoulou E, Feroussis J, Papalois A, Zoubos A. The effect of local use of nandrolone decanoate on rotator cuff repair in rabbits. _J Invest Surg_, 2010 Aug;23(4):204-7.
8: Heinemeier KM, Olesen JL, Schjerling P, Hassad F, Langberg H, Baldwin KM, Kjaer M (2007b) Short-term strength training and the expression of myostatin and IGF-1 isoforms in rat muscle and tendon: differential effects of specific contraction types. _J Appl Physiol_, 102:573-581.


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