# Prohormone side effects



## RCfootball87 (Feb 10, 2004)

Everyone always says that taking pro-hormones before you're 18 can leave "serious effects on your endocrine system" yet no one ever bothers to elaborate on what those are exactly.  If I started taking them when I turn 17 in 10 months, to get bigger for my senior season of football, what kind of effects would I be looking at.  By then I'll have been lifting for two years, and I have solid diet and training.  I'm almost 5' 10" already so I'm not really worried about being a midget or anything.


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## Deeznuts (Feb 10, 2004)

Dude, at your age your body's producing enough testosterone and recovering at a fast enough rate that it would be the equivalent of a 40 year old taking an AWESOME supplement. Why take PH's? A good diet and hard work are all you need right now I think. You haven't begun to reach your natural potential.


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## Arnold (Feb 10, 2004)

I say 21 or older.


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## IronSlingah (Feb 10, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Deeznuts *_
> Dude, at your age your body's producing enough testosterone and recovering at a fast enough rate that it would be the equivalent of a 40 year old taking an AWESOME supplement. Why take PH's? A good diet and hard work are all you need right now I think. You haven't begun to reach your natural potential.




If your at your max natural production wuddent this be the best time to boost it to higher levels? Im 19 and im about to take PH`s and when i see companies talk about 21 or older i see it as them  covering there asses. 21 is just some arbitrary number that is used to deem you as an "adult".


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## titans1854 (Feb 10, 2004)

i'm looking to get big for my senior season of football too. why can't i just take it for like 6 months? or maybe just a short period of time to gain weight and raise bench a little?


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## IronSlingah (Feb 10, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by titans1854 *_
> i'm looking to get big for my senior season of football too. why can't i just take it for like 6 months? or maybe just a short period of time to gain weight and raise bench a little?




Why not i play college ball and ive seen friends roid as early as 15.


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## camarosuper6 (Feb 10, 2004)

It has more to do than just your natural test levels.  At 17 there is a good chance your still not completely done growing, and I dont mean in just height, I mean from a total body standpoint.  Interfering with your bodys hormonal system at a young age can cause problems with growth, growth platelets, your organs, bone formation, not to mention what it does to your natural testosterone, which is pretty fragile during the pubescent stage, even if you are almost done with puberty. Many people dont COMPLETELY finish growing and such until they are 21 or even older.  Your body is still maturing, dont disturb it until you are CERTAIN it has already peaked.

There are many articles you can read about the problems associated with horomones (mainly steroid use, but pro-hormones have similar effects) and young adults.  This doesnt even cover the fact that since your hormone level is already high, you have a very increased chance of acne, and possibly even gyno (though I have never really seen anyone get gyno from pro-homomone. A pro-steroid, like M1-t, maybe).


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## bandaidwoman (Feb 11, 2004)

Camarosuper and everyone else here is right.   The 21 year old isn't some legallity.  The maximum testosterone production peaks between 19 and 21.  For some men, the growth plates don't fuse until 25.  You may be happy at your height but I've seen guys grow 3-4 inches between the age of 18 and 23.  And if height isn't of concern, then the other issues such as the higher rate of conversion to estrogen  of the prohormones seems to be more problematic  in teenagers (since your conversion enzymes are called "upregulated" in amount due to the natural surge of testosterone that is higher).  Acne will be a bigger issue as others have mentioned. 

 I've seen cases of very early prostate enlargement in guys in their twenties (needing a catherization just to pee) when they did use gear in their teenage years (remember, it is testosterone that enlarges the prostate.)....it takes years for the average Joe but it may be accellerated especially in teengagers who are chugging out a huge, huge dose of testosterone and  supplementing on top of it.  Also, theoretical( but not clinically studied ) increased risk of testicular cancer....the only cancer that reaches its peak between the age of 18 and 25.  (It's a young man's cancer).  Your leydig, sertoli cells,  neurohormonal axis etc. and all the cells residing in your testicles are still maturing until the age of 20 or so and such a outside source of extra testosterone may trigger the cells to "take off"  so to speak.  There are only case studies of its association with very early steroid use_ but not a proven cause and effect yet._  However, you realize the cure for testicular cancer is castration....... 

By the way, there have been no association between anabolic steroids and testicular cancer in those who have reached full sexual maturity ie: greater than 23 years of age.


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## Deeznuts (Feb 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> Camarosuper and everyone else here is right.   The 21 year old isn't some legallity.  The maximum testosterone production peaks between 19 and 21.  For some men, the growth plates don't fuse until 25.  You may be happy at your height but I've seen guys grow 3-4 inches between the age of 18 and 23.  And if height isn't of concern, then the other issues such as the higher rate of conversion to estrogen  of the prohormones seems to be more problematic  in teenagers (since your conversion enzymes are called "upregulated" in amount due to the natural surge of testosterone that is higher).  Acne will be a bigger issue as others have mentioned.
> 
> I've seen cases of very early prostate enlargement in guys in their twenties (needing a catherization just to pee) when they did use gear in their teenage years (remember, it is testosterone that enlarges the prostate.)....it takes years for the average Joe but it may be accellerated especially in teengagers who are chugging out a huge, huge dose of testosterone and  supplementing on top of it.  Also, theoretical( but not clinically studied ) increased risk of testicular cancer....the only cancer that reaches its peak between the age of 18 and 25.  (It's a young man's cancer).  Your leydig, sertoli cells,  neurohormonal axis etc. and all the cells residing in your testicles are still maturing until the age of 20 or so and such a outside source of extra testosterone may trigger the cells to "take off"  so to speak.  There are only case studies of its association with very early steroid use_ but not a proven cause and effect yet._  However, you realize the cure for testicular cancer is castration.......
> ...



Excellent post - exactly what I was trying to say just more educated sounding.


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## JerseyDevil (Feb 11, 2004)

What she said....


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## IronSlingah (Feb 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> Camarosuper and everyone else here is right.   The 21 year old isn't some legallity.  The maximum testosterone production peaks between 19 and 21.  For some men, the growth plates don't fuse until 25.  You may be happy at your height but I've seen guys grow 3-4 inches between the age of 18 and 23.  And if height isn't of concern, then the other issues such as the higher rate of conversion to estrogen  of the prohormones seems to be more problematic  in teenagers (since your conversion enzymes are called "upregulated" in amount due to the natural surge of testosterone that is higher).  Acne will be a bigger issue as others have mentioned.
> 
> I've seen cases of very early prostate enlargement in guys in their twenties (needing a catherization just to pee) when they did use gear in their teenage years (remember, it is testosterone that enlarges the prostate.)....it takes years for the average Joe but it may be accellerated especially in teengagers who are chugging out a huge, huge dose of testosterone and  supplementing on top of it.  Also, theoretical( but not clinically studied ) increased risk of testicular cancer....the only cancer that reaches its peak between the age of 18 and 25.  (It's a young man's cancer).  Your leydig, sertoli cells,  neurohormonal axis etc. and all the cells residing in your testicles are still maturing until the age of 20 or so and such a outside source of extra testosterone may trigger the cells to "take off"  so to speak.  There are only case studies of its association with very early steroid use_ but not a proven cause and effect yet._  However, you realize the cure for testicular cancer is castration.......
> ...




I understand that you destroy your natural test production if you take gear for months on end but its hard to believe that these serious side effects (IE-testicular cancer/ Stunted Growth Prostate inlargement) can happen after a 3 week cycle on something like M1T.


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## bandaidwoman (Feb 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by IronSlingah *_
> I understand that you destroy your natural test production if you take gear for months on end but its hard to believe that these serious side effects (IE-testicular cancer/ Stunted Growth Prostate inlargement) can happen after a 3 week cycle on something like M1T.




The patients I see had the prostatic enlargement even with short but frequent cycling (and strangely enough not in older ones who started their cycles in their late twenties or mid twenties but the younger ones who cycled in their late teens or early twenties. ) Exogenous (from gear) testosterone or endogenous (testicular) testosterone both affect prostatic enlargment so it doesn't matter if the natural (endogenous)  testosterone has been shut down or not. 

The testicular cancer has not been shown in clinical trials yet so that is just speculative, but we really don't know what causes it.  (ie: can on and off cycling of hormones do this in those not sexually mature?  studies are underway.)


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## ZECH (Feb 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by IronSlingah *_
> I understand that you destroy your natural test production if you take gear for months on end but its hard to believe that these serious side effects (IE-testicular cancer/ Stunted Growth Prostate inlargement) can happen after a 3 week cycle on something like M1T.


I can get you a link to where a guy did bloodwork on a M-1T cycle. He worked in a lab and had access to test. His test totally shut down after 3 weeks!! ZILCH, NADA!
If you want to read it let me know.


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## Arnold (Feb 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> I can get you a link to where a guy did bloodwork on a M-1T cycle. He worked in a lab and had access to test. His test totally shut down after 3 weeks!! ZILCH, NADA!
> If you want to read it let me know.



cool, that just confirms how powerful it is!


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## ZECH (Feb 11, 2004)

Yep. Although some substances are harder on HPTA than others. I guess M-1T happens to be one of them.


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## Arnold (Feb 11, 2004)

true.


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## JerseyDevil (Feb 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> I can get you a link to where a guy did bloodwork on a M-1T cycle. He worked in a lab and had access to test. His test totally shut down after 3 weeks!! ZILCH, NADA!
> If you want to read it let me know.


DG, you're referring to Supersoldier's thread correct?  He had shutdown after only 3 _days_, not weeks!!!  Here were the labs for testosterone.  For those who don't know, a male is considered to be hypogonadal at about 260 ng/dl and below.

Day 1: 436.77 ng/dl
Day 3:   39.10 ng/dl
Day 5:   24.49 ng/dl


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## IronSlingah (Feb 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by JerseyDevil *_
> DG, you're referring to Supersoldier's thread correct?  He had shutdown after only 3 _days_, not weeks!!!  Here were the labs for testosterone.  For those who don't know, a male is considered to be hypogonadal at about 260 ng/dl and below.
> 
> Day 1: 436.77 ng/dl
> ...




I thought test shutdown was expected when running M1T/Gear? maybe i miss read soemthing. I thought that was the main reason to have good PCT to get your test levels back to normal as soon as possible to hold on to your gains.


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## Arnold (Feb 11, 2004)

that almost seems impossible to go from 436ng/dl to 39ng/dl in 3 days.


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## IronSlingah (Feb 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> that almost seems impossible to go from 436ng/dl to 39ng/dl in 3 days.




How can they record just natural test-production? Wuddent they have to take the whole sample with the natural and M1T test in it?


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## Arnold (Feb 11, 2004)

not really sure...maybe bandaidwoman can clarify this.


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## ZECH (Feb 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by JerseyDevil *_
> DG, you're referring to Supersoldier's thread correct?  He had shutdown after only 3 _days_, not weeks!!!  Here were the labs for testosterone.  For those who don't know, a male is considered to be hypogonadal at about 260 ng/dl and below.
> 
> Day 1: 436.77 ng/dl
> ...


Yes I was........................good catch!


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## camarosuper6 (Feb 11, 2004)

Damn thats plain scary.  I planned on doing my 30mg of m1-t for four weeks before taking a full 8 weeks off.  Hmmm... maybe I should stick with the 2 week cycles.  What do you guys think. Anyone tried a 4 week cycle?


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## billyzane1 (Feb 11, 2004)

*you guys are scaring me with this test shutdown info*

I am sitting on several bottles. I was gonna just get a little boost by doing a few 2 week cycles by taking 1   5mg tab per day in the morning.

Will I get shutdown? I know that I will not get huge results but I figure that, plus hard training and creatine and a good diet and I will get some good results..

What do you think?


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## billyzane1 (Feb 11, 2004)

*one more thing*

I was gonna pct with 6oxo and milk thistle of course.


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## IronSlingah (Feb 11, 2004)

From what i hear from the experts around here the max suggested dosage ED is 20mg and the max lenth is 2 weeks on so going 4 weeks on at 30mg ED seems dangerous too me.


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## IronSlingah (Feb 11, 2004)

*Re: one more thing*



> _*Originally posted by billyzane1 *_
> I was gonna pct with 6oxo and milk thistle of course.



Also heard 6oxo isnt strong enough for M1T.


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## goldenthree (Feb 11, 2004)

ok number one, 1-test, and methyl 1-test are NOT prohormones, they are steroids, people call them prosteroids but thats just because they are legal.  It is a steroid just like anabol and the rest.   Therefore it has all the same effects, it can cause gyno, plate fissure, etc.. 

Basically it is just a bad idea unless your 21, and it is not just a decision now, but for the rest of your life your gonna be shorter then if you had not used the steroids, and you might not keep your gains b/c alot can happen in that time, but your still gonna be shorter.  If you must take them just wait a year you are talking permanant side effects, and 1-test IS a steroid.  

Also from my understand and all the studies I've seen its the estrogen not the test that tells your body to stop producing LH which shuts down your test production.  However if you MUST do the testerone read into heavily and make sure this is a lifelong decision you wanna make, also look into letrozole which will stop pretty much all aromatization which will stop growth plate fissure(caused by oestrogen), gyno, test shutdown,and increase your test levels even more.  However it will have an effect on bone density.  

Just remember research, research, research you can make a big gains, and big mistakes.  

Good luck.


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## coderr (Feb 12, 2004)

not to change subjects or sups but is 6-oxo strong enough for s1+?


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## bandaidwoman (Feb 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by IronSlingah *_
> How can they record just natural test-production? Wuddent they have to take the whole sample with the natural and M1T test in it?




Iron slingah is right.  These numbers look  like numbers after finishing a cycle rather than during. (In which case, such drastic decrease in 3 days is not unusual)  Not sure how he differentiated natural endogenous testosterone from M-1T conversion to testosterone  during a cycle unless he also looked at the ratio of coresponding estrogen production and some of the temporary changes associated with bound vs. free testosterone levels and has a formula for calculation that I am unware of.  Remember, only 2% of circulating testosterone is unbound and biologically active; the rest is bound to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) or albumin.   Standard testosterone level testing looks at the total testosterone = bound and unbound testosterone.


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## maze (Feb 12, 2004)

To the first post...

There are lots of supps that you can take right now, like creatine, l-glutamine, protein powders, etc.

I made the mistake of using Andro @ 22  
and got some fat in my pecs,  i removed that 3 years later. Its not worth it ... man, wait until you are 25 to use PHs or ProSteroids ... 

I have trained 17-23 year olds with only  
creatine and high protein diet and they get similar results as a 28-30yr PH user.


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## JerseyDevil (Feb 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> Iron slingah is right.  These numbers look  like numbers after finishing a cycle rather than during. (In which case, such drastic decrease in 3 days is not unusual)  Not sure how he differentiated natural endogenous testosterone from M-1T conversion to testosterone  during a cycle unless he also looked at the ratio of coresponding estrogen production and some of the temporary changes associated with bound vs. free testosterone levels and has a formula for calculation that I am unware of.  Remember, only 2% of circulating testosterone is unbound and biologically active; the rest is bound to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) or albumin.   Standard testosterone level testing looks at the total testosterone = bound and unbound testosterone.


I _think_ I know the answer to this. 1-testosterone and the methylated version (M1T) do not convert to testosterone, nor do they aromatize to estrogen. 1-testosterone (17beta-hydroxy-5alpha-androst-1-en-3-one) is a steroid that is closely related to testosterone chemically.  It has a double bond at the 1 position, testosterone has a double bond at the 4 position. Since this is the case, I don't believe it would show in total testosterone.


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## bandaidwoman (Feb 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by JerseyDevil *_
> I _think_ I know the answer to this. 1-testosterone and the methylated version (M1T) do not convert to testosterone, nor do they aromatize to estrogen. 1-testosterone (17beta-hydroxy-5alpha-androst-1-en-3-one) is a steroid that is closely related to testosterone chemically.  It has a double bond at the 1 position, testosterone has a double bond at the 4 position. Since this is the case, I don't believe it would show in total testosterone.




that makes absolutely perfect sense! I just assumed M1T was demethylated.  I'll have to look into it.  i learn Something new everyday!


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## RCfootball87 (Feb 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by maze *_
> To the first post...
> 
> There are lots of supps that you can take right now, like creatine, l-glutamine, protein powders, etc.
> ...


I've taken protein and creatine for like 8 months now.  Right now I'm using Optimum Nutrition After Max, Which has 40 grams of protein, 5 grams of creatine, and 5 grams of glutamine per serving.  I think it's a pretty solid supp, but I've only used it for a few days so I can't tell yet.  I suppose I should just get my diet a little better, and up my creatine to maybe 10 grams a day.


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## firestorm (Feb 14, 2004)

Excellent reading.  Very informative people.   I'm wondering why Bandaidwoman isn't a MODERATOR on here yet!!!   Prince look into that.


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## IronSlingah (Feb 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> Excellent reading.  Very informative people.   I'm wondering why Bandaidwoman isn't a MODERATOR on here yet!!!   Prince look into that.




Yeah she knows her shit.


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## JerseyDevil (Feb 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> Excellent reading.  Very informative people.   I'm wondering why Bandaidwoman isn't a MODERATOR on here yet!!!   Prince look into that.


I second that! She has helped me immensely with some personal questions.  Bandaidwoman rocks!


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## Larva (Feb 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by coderr *_
> not to change subjects or sups but is 6-oxo strong enough for s1+?



yes


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## samat631 (Mar 3, 2004)

> _*only 2% of circulating testosterone is unbound and biologically active; the rest is bound to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) *_


_*


so only 2% of testosterone is being used for strength?*_


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