# Please give me feedback on my diet/exercise regime



## Kenny537 (Aug 19, 2010)

Hello,

Please see my plan here:

It will not let me post links or images since I am new, so please see attached.

I am 22 years old, male, 170 lbs, 5'7", vegetarian.

I am starting p90x again, I have done it a couple times in the past, but on and off, never consistently, hopefully I can change that this time.  I would still classify myself as a beginner.  

I know that I cannot lose weight and gain mass - therefore my goal currently is to lose weight.  I am nearly 25% body fat, and my goal is to get that down to maybe 12-15%, and to get a six pack.  I would not be considered fat, but I would say I have manboobs or "moobs".  I want to get rid of that moob look. 

I am thinking about 1800 calories a day, would this be right?  What do you think of my diet/exercise regime?  As you can see, I am unsure what to eat on the day I do Yoga.. and also unsure what to eat and how much to eat on my rest day (Saturday).

I am trying to emulate this:
Meal 1 (wake up) - [Protein + Complex Carb] + Fruits/Veggies
Meal 2 (few hours later) - [Protein + Complex Carb] + Fruits/Veggies
Meal 3 (few hours later, pre-workout) - [Protein + Complex Carb] + Fruits/Veggies
Meal 4 (immediate post-workout) - [Protein + Complex Carb] + Fruits
Meal 5 (few hours later) - [Protein + Fat] + Fruits/Veggies
Meal 6 (few hours later) - [Protein + Fat] + Fruits/Veggies
Meal 7 (bedtime) - [Protein + Fat] + Fruits/Veggies

Also, I am operating under the assumption that my first meal of the day should be a complete protein + complex carb, and that I should eat a slow-digesting protein and complex carb before going to sleep.  Another couple things that I have read is that most of your carbs should be eaten after your workout, and before the afternoon on non-workout days.  Is all this true?

Any tips and advice would be appreciated.  Thanks!


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## Kenny537 (Aug 26, 2010)

Anyone?

I changed my diet plan again

I haven't really followed the p90x nutrition plan - rather I formed my diet based on things I have read online. I am trying to stay near the 1700-1800 calories a day range. This is the total calories consumed, not the net calories consumed after my workout. I assume that most people say their total calories consumed when they say how many carlories they are trying to eat, right? I am reading that losing weight is simple math - use up more calories then you take in .. however this is not making any sense to me. I burn an average of 600 calories with a p90x exercise, right? That would mean I would have to eat less than 600 calories a day? That makes no sense at all and I am sure no one would recommend that. My net calories consumed is about 1100-1200 - which is still a surplus. So how would I lose weight? I think I have actually gained a couple pounds - but I am almost sure that this is muscle gain, since I have been doing lifting along with cardio (I can tell its muscle gain because my forearms are like a rock now!)


Anyways, here is my diet (all in grams):

(water throughout day)

6:30 AM - (wake up) - 1 cup goat milk + 1 banana + 1 scoop whey (optimum nutrition) - then right after that I take a multivitamin and flax seed cap with water
8 g fat
51 g carb
32 g protein
(365 calories)

9:30 AM - quinoa (around 1/2 cup cooked) + lentil soup (around 3/4 cup)
1 fat
34 carb
10g protein
(138 calories)


12:30 PM - 3/4 cup egg white omelet with some greens (kale, spinach, brocolli, and asparagus) + apple

0 fat
25 carb
21 protein
(215 calories)

3:30 or 4 PM - 3/4 cup chickpeas, 1/4 cup dark red kidney beans, 1/4 cup black beans (all low sodium)

2 fat
69 carb
19 protein
(260 calories)

6:00 PM - Protein bar + Superpump 250(I have never drank much caffeine in my life, and I have been getting headaches recently .. earaches initially on.. but those have passed..should I stop doing this?  I think it helps a lot - should I take jack3d instead?)

superpump = 8 carbs (32 calories)
no protein bar included since I am stopping that



6:30 or 7 PM until 9 PM - workout and then p90x recovery drink packet
2 fat
40 carb
10 protein
(220 calories)

10:30 - 11:30 PM - fat free cottage cheese (1 or 1.5 cups) + a few tbps of peanut butter + a handful slices of avocado + a little high lignan flaxseed oil (barleans) + hot sauce, and maybe a few almonds and walnuts. 
42 fat
39 carb
44 protein
(650 calories)  *I am doing this to combine healthy fats in order to slow down the digestion of the casein protein even further.  Is this too much fat though?



Totals:

55g fats
266g carbs
136g protein
almost 1900 calories

After reading through the macros of this diet.. it looks like I have way too many carbs.  Would you agree?  If so, any suggestions on how to lessen them?  Some of the proteins I eat are tied to the high carbs, like the quinoa, lentils, recovery drink, legumes, etc.  I could get rid of the banana in the morning.. what else?


So knowing that I am trying to lose fat - what do you think of this diet? If you think it will help maximize my results - would you recommend I stick to this exact diet everyday? Even on Yoga day? What about on the stretch day? What about on days that I cannot workout because of an emergency or unexpected conflict? 

As you can see, I am only taking whey once a day, and only one scoop. I am reading a site that recommends taking it once in the morning (like I am) - and also once hour after my workout, assuming that I take the recovery drink right after the workout. My concern with that is: 1. If I take the whey one hour after I workout, it will already be like 9:30 or 10 PM when I take it, and I will have eat my casein cottage cheese protein a mere hour or less later. Would this be fine? My other concern is that it will add more calories. Would you agree with that recommendation knowing my situation? Or an alternative would be putting 2 scoops instead of 1 in the morning. 

Another concern I have is that I know that I am supposed to take a slow digesting casein protein before going to bed, which I do. But I have also read that the first meal of the day should be a complete protein and a complex carb. So I take whey - that's a complete protein right? If it is, I still have to worry about the carb. I am not even sure what goat milk is - is that a complex carb, or a simple carb, or a protein? Probably a mix, but I have heard the carbs for milk are not complex. what about the banana - is that a complex carb? If not, then I should modify it to include a complex carb, correct? 

I am reading about shakeology as a meal replacement - is this something I should look into?

Also, some people are taking glutamine, but I have no idea what that is or what it means, so I am hoping you could shed some light on that. Is this something I should take - if so why? 

As for creatine - it seems like it as many benefits, but I am reading that I should hold off on it if I am trying to lose fat - is this true?

Like you saw, I am taking a few tbps of peanut butter at night - is this fine? I am using one that is healthy and all natural.

What is insulinogenesis?  Something  I should look into ?

That post actually helped me a lot. What is your opinion?

Sorry for bombarding you with questions.

Thanks a lot!


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## JohhnySou (Aug 27, 2010)

If you're trying to bulk i would cut down the carbs and add protein same goes for if you're trying to cut.

if you're trying to cut you should have your carbs 30% of your calorie intake and with 1900 that would come to around 90g carbs. up the protein imo.

i run 50% protein/30%carbs/20%fat. Thats all in trying to cut down tho.

Theres a great section to read in the stickys, provides you with how you can find the figures in the kind of diet you want to create for what goal you're trying to reach, as well as tools and calculators.

Hope this helped!


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## Kenny537 (Aug 27, 2010)

It does help, but it's hard for me to up the protein since I am vegetarian.  How do I do this when the legumes and the protein and the lentils, all great protein sources, are also loaded with carbs?

Just stick to tofu and whey shakes?


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## gtbmed (Aug 27, 2010)

Do you eat eggs?


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## Kenny537 (Aug 27, 2010)

yeah if you look at my diet, I eat an egg white omelet everyday

I have nearly 300 carbs  .. according to the p90x nutrition guide - I should be eating about 2400-3000 calories a day, and also be at a 50/30/20 ratio of protein/carbs/fat during this phase of the program.   I am eating only about 1800 calories and nowhere near that ratio, as my carbs are through the roof.  Is this not a problem?


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## Kenny537 (Aug 28, 2010)

Here is my newly created diet plan:  this is the closest  I can get to 50% protein, 30 % carbs, 20% fat.

I am restarting p90x week 1 tomorrow with this diet:


6 30 AM:  Whey protein + banana + goat milk - 470 cals (42c, 9f, 57p) 

9 15 AM:  Greek Style Low Fat Plain Yogurt  - 160 cals (9c, 3f, 24p)

12 15 PM: liquid egg white omelet + spinach + broccoli - 260 cals (12c, 0f, 50p)

3 PM: Whey protein shake (with just water) - 240 cals (8c, 2f, 48p)

5 15 PM: Tofu + apple - 330cals (17c, 13f, 30p)

6 PM: Superpump 250 - 38 cals (9c, 0f, 0p)

8 30 PM: p90x Recovery Drink - 220 cals (39c, 2f, 10p) 

10 15 PM:  Whey protein shake (with just water) - 120 cals (4c, 1f, 24p)

11 30 PM - 12 AM: Cottage cheese + avocado + flax seed oil (26c, 21f, 44p)


Totals:

2273 calories

166 carbs, 51 fat, 287 protein

I did not reach the 2400 calorie mark with 300 protein, 180 carbs, and 53 fat... but its pretty close.  Not sure what else I can do.

How is that?  The thing that concerns me is all those carbs at night because of the cottage cheese .. but I need the casein right?  I assume the casein protein powder does not have as much carbs.. should I do that?  I kind of already have so much whey powder in there though.  Either way, I feel much better about this diet than the one before.  I'll do this for the first phase (4 weeks) before slowly highering my carbs and lowering my protein, fats stay consistent (all according to p90x nutrition plan).

Any feedback would be appreciated - thanks!


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## Built (Aug 28, 2010)

JohhnySou said:


> If you're trying to bulk i would cut down the carbs and add protein same goes for if you're trying to cut.
> 
> if you're trying to cut you should have your carbs 30% of your calorie intake and with 1900 that would come to around 90g carbs. up the protein imo.
> 
> ...



The ratios obfuscate what's really going on with your diet. Focus on the grams and the calories. 



Kenny537 said:


> yeah if you look at my diet, I eat an egg white omelet everyday
> 
> I have nearly 300 carbs  .. according to the p90x nutrition guide - I should be eating about 2400-3000 calories a day, and also be at a 50/30/20 ratio of protein/carbs/fat during this phase of the program.   I am eating only about 1800 calories and nowhere near that ratio, as my carbs are through the roof.  Is this not a problem?


Again, the ratios are something you need to move beyond. 



Kenny537 said:


> Here is my newly created diet plan:  this is the closest  I can get to 50% protein, 30 % carbs, 20% fat.
> 
> I am restarting p90x week 1 tomorrow with this diet:
> 
> ...



I eat most of my carbs at night, especially while cutting. I train at night, so this works for me. I don't eat carbs in the AM - I eat a fairly high fat diet through the day, moderate protein and very low carb outside the training window. 

Do you train in the AM or the PM? 

Are you losing weight now? How fast? 

Also, vegetarians especially can benefit from creatine. If you're not already doing so, I highly recommend 5g a day every day.


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## Kenny537 (Aug 28, 2010)

Thanks for the input.

I am not sure I understand how the ratios obfuscate.  Could you expand on that please?

I train in the evening after I work.  Around 6 30 PM.  So yes, at night.  But I don't sleep til around midnight (ideally).  So I'm only getting around 6 hrs of sleep unfortunately.  I try to fall asleep earlier but I just can't for some reason.  

I am guessing that I am losing weight... but I am not sure.  In the week that I have been training, I have seen some muscle improvements in my arms.. but my weight has been at about 170 consistently.  I believe this is because I am losing fat and gaining muscle so it's evening out.  I am going to measure my body fat % tonight with skinfolds so hopefully I can keep track of my progress that way.

I read that creatine is beneficial for when you are bulking, and should not be used when cutting.  Is this not true?

Thanks


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## juggernaut (Aug 28, 2010)

I cant even say or define obfuscate...let along use it in a sentence right. 

And why not basic weight training instead of p90x?


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## Hubauer (Aug 28, 2010)

That p90x gets your blood pumping! I did it for about 2 weeks with a friend... we always did the workouts at night, and I had trouble falling asleep even if I was tired.

But if I lift at night, I can pass clean out when I get back.

- Hubauer


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## juggernaut (Aug 29, 2010)

Hubauer said:


> That p90x gets your blood pumping! I did it for about 2 weeks with a friend... we always did the workouts at night, and I had trouble falling asleep even if I was tired.
> 
> But if I lift at night, I can pass clean out when I get back.
> 
> - Hubauer



Try a Javorek Complex. Hands down they very easily will beat the shit out of you.
Oh, and you're not paying a bazillion dollars for the free information.


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## Built (Aug 29, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> Try a *Javorek Complex. Hands down they very easily will beat the shit out of you*.
> Oh, and you're not paying a bazillion dollars for the free information.



Complexes will leave you searching for the puke-bucket faster than you could imagine.


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## Simply_Michael (Aug 29, 2010)

I agree built even Randy Couture MMA on YouTube sucks


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## Simply_Michael (Aug 29, 2010)

*bunch of complexes better than p90x*

------------------------------------------------------------------
*Complex A 5x5*
Row
Clean
Front squat
Military press
Back squat
Good mornings
------------------------------------------------------------------
*Complex B 5x5*
Deadlift
Clean-grip high pull
Clean-grip snatch
Back squat
Good mornings
Row
------------------------------------------------------------------
*Complex C 5x5*
Hang snatch
Overhead squat
Back squat
Good mornings
Row
Deadlift
------------------------------------------------------------------
*Complex D 5x5*
Upright row
Clean-grip snatch
Back squat
Behind the neck press
Good mornings
Row
------------------------------------------------------------------
*Complex E 5x5*
Power clean
Military press
Back squat
Good mornings
Behind the neck press
Front squat
------------------------------------------------------------------
*Complex F 5x5*
Overhead squat
Back squat
Good morning
Front squat
Rows
Deadlift
------------------------------------------------------------------
*Complex G 5x5*
Romanian Deadlift
Hang Clean + Front Squat + Push Press (combo lift ??? perform one rep of each in series)
Reverse Lunge (alternate legs)
------------------------------------------------------------------ 
*Complex H 5x5*
High Pull (onto toes)
Squat Clean (clean the bar from the hang and then drop into a full squat on the catch)
Military Press (strict)
Jump Lunges (switch legs)
------------------------------------------------------------------ 
*Complex I 5x5*
Jump Squat
Squat
Squat and hold for 10s
Military Press
Push Press
Squat and Press
------------------------------------------------------------------
*Bloody Barbell Complex (repeat 4 times)*
Overhead squat for 10 reps
Hang clean for 10 reps
Standing military press for 10 reps
Bentover row for 10 reps
Lunge for 10 reps on each leg
Romanian deadlift for 20 reps
Front squat for 10 reps
Standing calf raise (barbell across upper back) for 30 reps
------------------------------------------------------------------
*Bloody Dumbbell Complex (repeat 4 times)*
Standing hammer curl for 5 reps
Standing alternating shoulder press for 10 reps with each arm
Forward lunge for 10 reps with each leg
Bentover alternating row for 10 reps with each arm
Reverse lunge with overhead press (palms facing each other) for 10 reps with each leg
Romanian deadlift for 20 reps
Standing calf raise (arms hanging at sides) for 30 reps
------------------------------------------------------------------
*Cosgrove???s Evil 8*
Deadlift
Romanian Deadlift
Bentover Row
Power Clean
Front Squat
Push Press
Back Squat
Good Morning

On round one, perform 6 reps of each exercise, Rest 90 seconds after the first circuit, then perform 5 reps of each in the next circuit; rest 90 seconds, 4 reps of each; rest 90 seconds, 3 reps of each; rest 90 seconds, 2 reps of each; rest 90 seconds, and then do 1 rep of each.


*Tumminello's Weight Plate Metabolic Circuit *(use an olympic plate)
5 sets with 90 sec recovery

Overhead Squat x 6-8
Swings (like kettlebell swings) x 6-8
Bentover Row x 8-10
Reverse Lunge and Twist x 8-10 total
Diagonal Chops x 6-8 each side
------------------------------------------------------------------
*Waterbury**???s Submission Complex*
Reverse Lunges, 6 reps on each leg
Romanian Deadlift, 12 reps
Good Morning, 12 reps
Front Squat, 6 reps
Military Press, 6 reps
Bentover Row, 6 reps
Floor Press, 12 reps
Rest 60 seconds and repeat 2-4 more times depending on your testicular fortitude.
------------------------------------------------------------------
*Ferrugia???s Timed Complex*
The goal of this complex is speed. Start a timer and perform it once through, 6 reps for every movement. The next time you perform it, try to beat that time. 
Deadlift
Hang Clean
Front Squat
Hang Snatch
Overhead Squat
Front Press
Bentover Row
Romanian Deadlift
------------------------------------------------------------------

10 burpees, varying method
10 prisoner squats
10 lunge-jumps, alternating
20 bent-over reverse flies
10 second front plank, 10 second (left) side plank, 10 second (right) side plank
rest for 1 minute, repeat 10x
------------------------------------------------------------------

3-4 min warm-up 
· 1 min sled drags
· 20 sec active recovery
· 1 min overhead medicine ball slams (throw MB at ground from overhead)
· 20 sec active recovery
· 10 swiss ball jackknifes
· 10 push ups (keep feet on swiss ball if possible)
· 30 sec active recovery
Repeat 3-5 more times 

3-5 min cool-down

------------------------------------------------------------------


3-4 min warm-up (your choice)
· 15 burpees
· 15 MB Pushups 
· 15 MB Crunches
· 30 sec active recovery

Repeat 3-5 more times 

Finish up with some sled dragging/sprints if you want

3-5 min cool-down

------------------------------------------------------------------

3-4 minute warm-up (your choice)
· 50 burpees (jump laterally over small medicine ball or foam roller between each burpee) ??? fast as possible. These are full burpees with the jump.

· If you get to 50 burpees and more time is desired, do overhead walking lunges and skips with interval rests until time has elapsed.
3-5 minute cool-down 


------------------------------------------------------------------


3-4 min warm-up (your choice)

30/30
30 seconds work, followed by 30 seconds rest, repeat next exercise. I
· Rower
· DB or KB swings (15-40 lbs ??? trial and error)
· One leg hops (jump on 1 leg as high as possible, if not possible do 2 legs)
· Russian Twist
· Sit up and reach with medicine ball
· Mountain climbers
· Skipping (on track or any open space)
Repeat 2-4 times 

3-5 min cool-down

------------------------------------------------------------------

3-4 min warm-up (your choice)
· 30 sec jumping jacks
· 30 sec bear crawls
· 30 sec active recovery
· 30 sec jump rope
· 30 sec explosive push ups
· 30 sec active recovery
· 60 sec Sled Drags
· 30 sec active recovery
Repeat 3-5 times

3-5 minute cool-down

A1) Sledgehammer Swing x 20 (10 L/10 R)
rest: none
A2) Push-Ups x 10
rest: none
A3) Alternating Lunge x 20 (10 l/10 R)
rest: 60-sec
A1-A3 are a circuit. Repeat 10 times.
------------------------------------------------------------------
1A) Sandbag clean and push press, 1x10 
1B) Sandbag bent-over row, 1x10
1C) Shoulder get-up, 1x5 (each side)
1D) Sandbag shoulder squat, 1x10 (each side) 
1E) Sandbag carry, 1x50 yards
------------------------------------------------------------------
[FONT=&quot]

30 Good Mornings (with empty 45lb bar)
21 Atomic Situps
21 Pushups
30 Good Mornings
18 Atomic Situps
18 Pushups
30 Good Mornings
15 Atomic Situps
15 Pushups
30 Good Mornings
12 Atomic Situps
12 Pushups
30 Good Mornings
9 Atomic Situps
9 Pushups
30 Good Mornings
6 Atomic Situps
6 Pushups
30 Good Mornings
3 Atomic Situps
3 Pushups
------------------------------------------------------------------\
*Anti-Rodent Routines *
Beginner
First pass (of dumbbell): 10 one-arm dumbbell swings with each arm
Second pass: 50 sit-ups
Third pass: 10 one-arm clean and jerks with each arm
Fourth pass: 50 bodyweight squats
Intermediate
First pass: 20 dumbbell snatches with each arm
Second pass: 100 bodyweight squats
Third pass: 15 clean and push presses with each arm
Fourth pass: 50 sit-ups
Advanced
First pass: 10 one-arm dumbbell swings with each arm
Second pass: 50 sit-ups
Third pass: 10 one-arm clean and jerks with each arm
Fourth pass: 50 pushups 
Fifth pass: 20 dumbbell snatches with each arm
Sixth pass: 100 bodyweight squats
Seventh pass: 15 clean and push presses with each arm
Eighth pass: 50 sit-ups

Heavy Bag/Dumbbell Combo
Beginner
One minute heavy bag round
10 one-arm dumbbell snatches with each arm 
One minute heavy bag round
50 sit-ups
One minute heavy bag round
10 dumbbell swings 
One minute heavy bag round
50 bodyweight squats 

Intermediate 
Same as above, only extend the heavy bag rounds to two minutes. 

Advanced
Same as above, only extend the heavy bag rounds to three minutes. You can also add reps to the other exercises. 

Jump Rope/Dumbbell Cocktail
Beginner 
One minute of rope jumping
10 on-arm dumbbell snatches with each arm 
One minute of rope jumping
10 one-arm dumbbell clean and push presses
One minute of rope jumping
10 one-arm dumbbell swings
One minute of rope jumping
10 dumbbell squats 

Intermediate 
Same as above, only with two minute rounds of rope jumping. 

Advanced
Same as above, only with three minute rounds of rope jumping.



· 15 burpees
· 15 Pushups 
· 15 Hand Walkouts
· 30 sec active recovery

Repeat 3-5 more times

Cool down and stretch



· 50 burpees (jump laterally over small medicine ball or foam roller between each burpee) 
??? fast as possible. These are full burpees with the jump.

Cool Down and Stretch




-15 Prisoner Squats
-15 Pushups
-15 Bulgarian Split Squats Each Side
-15 Mountain Climbers

Repeat 3-5 more times

Cool Down and Stretch



15 burpees
15 prisoner squats
15 Good Mornings
15 Cross Knee Drives from pushup position

Repeat 3-5 more times

Cool Down and Stretch



Tabata Protocol:
20sec work/sprinting followed by 10sec rest repeated 8 times for a total of 4 mins

Some good ideas: burpees, prisoner squats, jump lunges, step ups, spider man climbs, squat jumps, overhead medicine ball slams, squat presses, overhead squats, skipping, running, cycling, cross trainer, rowing machine.




10 squats 
10 T pushups
10 body rows
10 lunges

Repeat 3-5 more times

Cool Down and Stretch



15 One leg Deadlifts
15 Star Jumps
15 Spiderman Climbs
60 sec Planks

Repeat 3-5 more times

Cool Down and Stretch



60sec Single Leg Hip Bridge each side
15 Burpees
15 Bench Dips
60sec Side Planks each side

Repeat 3-5 more times

Cool Down and Stretch 


(sorry for long post just thought others might like )


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## juggernaut (Aug 29, 2010)

exactly^^^^^^^^^


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## Hubauer (Aug 29, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> Try a Javorek Complex. Hands down they very easily will beat the shit out of you.
> Oh, and you're not paying a bazillion dollars for the free information.


 
I've seen some of those and they look vicious! The p90x isn't really my thing, I did it kind of as a favor for a friend because he wanted to try it. I sure as hell didn't buy the dvds.

Is there a certain benefit to exercise like the Javorek Complexes, aside from giving your workout a change and improving your endurance? I have no doubt that they're good for you, but being a bit of a hardgainer, I avoid that stuff when possible.


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## Built (Aug 29, 2010)

Good for GPP; also good as a substitute for sprinting if you're doing HIIT as part of Stubborn Fatloss Protocols (read daredevils article in my sig).


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## racer10 (Aug 31, 2010)

Kenny537 said:


> yeah if you look at my diet, I eat an egg white omelet everyday
> 
> I have nearly 300 carbs  .. according to the p90x nutrition guide - I should be eating about 2400-3000 calories a day, and also be at a 50/30/20 ratio of protein/carbs/fat during this phase of the program.   I am eating only about 1800 calories and nowhere near that ratio, as my carbs are through the roof.  Is this not a problem?



It's not a problem if your are using up those carbs.  My advice would be cut the carbs supplement with protein calories, get in your fat burn heart rate zone and go to town.  I can't speak to p90x never done it but most people respond best to 30 min or more in the target heart rate zone for fat loss a day for 5 or so days a week.   I've heard p90x is a good program but i personally haven't seen phenomal results from people using it.  I believe in omre normalized cardio (biking, running, elliptical , and lifting too) you burn a good amount of calories supersetting in the weight room and build muscle at the same time. My .02. Good luck!


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## racer10 (Aug 31, 2010)

Also AM card is a good idea before your first meal. Then you are exercising on a fast. Good for fat consumption by your body.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 1, 2010)

A few more questions.  What do you guys think of the p90x recovery drink vs whey protein as a PWO?

People tell me that the p90x one has a lower quality protein, and that whey digests faster.  According to one person, whey is a protein isolate while p90 is a protein concentrate, a less purer protein which will digest slower and an inferior product.  What protein to carb ratio would be best for me for PWO?  How much dextrose and maltadextrin?  Should I supplement Leucine?  What about HMB? 

Do you guys recommend anything for a sleep aid?  I can't seem to fall asleep at night and am only getting 4-5 hours.  I think it is because of the superpump 250.


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## Marat (Sep 1, 2010)

The biggest hindrance to your overall success is your poor programming (p90x) -- what whey shake you drink isn't going to make a difference. 

Squat, deadlift, bench press, press, and clean. Find a program that includes most (if not all) of those - at least squats, deadlifts, and the bench.  I recommend Baby Got Back by Built, 5/3/1 by Jim Wendler, or Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe. There are plenty of other programs as well, but at least sell (or delete) those ridiculous DVDs.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 3, 2010)

You're speaking in terms of body building though, right?  P90x is more of a cutting program.  I will finish the program, then start these bulking programs.  Is that not reasonable?  I want to cut first.. which brings me to this question:

 Should I eat less than my 2300 calories during cardio days?  Should my pre and post workout nutrition change?  I want to bulk up eventually...  but first I want to lose this belly fat.. which I assume means I want to "cut" first.  I have already seen noticeable muscle gains in the past couple week though, and have gained a few pounds, but not too much improvement in the belly area.. although I understand that is usually the last to go.

Some people are just telling me to "just stick to the nutrition plan".  And I am sure that is true and it works for people.  But I want to know WHY it will work.  I don't feel comfortable blindly following anything.


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## Marat (Sep 3, 2010)

Kenny537 said:


> You're speaking in terms of body building though, right?


 Not at all, I think everyone old enough to sit still for a few minutes at a time should participate in resistance training. 


Kenny537 said:


> P90x is more of a cutting program.


 I understand why you may presume so. Unfortunately, P90x is an incomplete modality. The program leaves out the heavy loading required to preserve your lean tissue. You also are not getting stronger -- you might be getting better at doing P90x, but you are not really getting any stronger in a significant, practical sense. I kindly direct that you check out the 'p90x' thread that is floating around the Training section. 


Kenny537 said:


> I will finish the program, then start these bulking programs.  Is that not reasonable?


 I certainly understand why that sounds logical but I do not believe it's the best (or like 50th best) course of action to reach your goal. What's your plan in regard to training when you want to bulk? Lift weights? You might as well start now and stop spending your time with activities that won't be getting you stronger. The benefits of lifting weights in comparison to p90x is like finding a dollar versus getting hit by a bus.  


Kenny537 said:


> Should I eat less than my 2300 calories during cardio days?


You can if you'd like. Feel free to work out the math to take in about 2000 on your cardio days (drop the carbs) and take in about 2600 on your lifting days. It won't exactly work out with those figures but I'll leave the math-ing to you. Or you can not complicate things. I'd recommend starting out with the simpler method (2300cal/ed) and going from there. Make the change if you start stalling. 


Kenny537 said:


> Should my pre and post workout nutrition change?


 Some low fiber carbs with some protein and relatively low fat pre workout and basically the same after. However, there is a ton of evidence (that I don't feel like looking for now) that suggests that we shouldn't be eating carbs after training, despite decades of the opposite being recommend, due to a bunch of insulin related 'stuff'. But whatever, go with the carbs and protein post workout for now. 


Kenny537 said:


> I have already seen noticeable muscle gains in the past couple week though


You've been in a caloric deficit right? Unless you had a bunch of muscle that has been lost, or you are just starting out with training , or you're injecting a bunch of anabolics, you almost definitely are not gaining muscle. Perhaps you are getting stronger, but probably no actual muscle tissue.


Kenny537 said:


> but not too much improvement in the belly area.. although I understand that is usually the last to go


That is the truth. 



Kenny537 said:


> Some people are just telling me to "just stick to the nutrition plan".  And I am sure that is true and it works for people.  But I want to know WHY it will work.  I don't feel comfortable blindly following anything.



Why it works? You'll probably be in a caloric deficit at 2300 calories. You're body doesn't care (it's actually fighting against you) about you're goals but it does care about getting its energy. Like the US Government, but I digress. Anyway, your not supplying the energy through food so the body needs to supplement the energy deficiency by grabbing energy from your second most readily available energy stores (fat). Protein 'stored' (it's not actually stored in the sense that fat is) is not a preferred energy source but you're body will be happy to gobble it up if you don't convince it that it should probably hold onto it. You do this by resistance training -- heavy resistance training. P90x does not provide this and therefore it is an incomplete training modality. With a balanced diet, you can ride out the fat loss to your goals of 12-15%. 

The reason that starving yourself or just doing a ton of cardio and not lifting weights is ineffective is due to the negative effects that those behaviors have on your hormonal profile. It's not really that interesting if you aren't...interested. Feel free to google  some stuff about leptin, ghrelin, testosterone, CCK, T3/T4 if you want to learn more about why you cannot just eat like 1800 calories, do P90x and get away with it.

An aside: you actually can go very low in calories but you need to be a bit trickier with it. Something like a protein sparing modified fast (PSMF) can perhaps be effective for you at some point. Lyle McDonald wrote a book on it - The Rapid Fatloss Handbook. 

However, I recommend starting simple and then moving on from there.

If that doesn't cover your question, feel free to copy and paste your previous post into a fresh post or ask for elaboration somewhere.


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## 200+ (Sep 3, 2010)

Kenny537 said:


> It does help, but it's hard for me to up the protein since I am vegetarian.  How do I do this when the legumes and the protein and the lentils, all great protein sources, are also loaded with carbs?
> 
> Just stick to tofu and whey shakes?



I have been a vegetarian for 8 years or so up until recently; I eat fish now.  I would get most of my protein from whey and casein.  I would get a little tired of the whey shakes contently but it worked well for me at the time.  How much whey do you consume a day?


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## Kenny537 (Sep 4, 2010)

200+ - I consume about 5 scoops of whey per day




M11 - I read the p90x thread and I think I understand the overall point.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they are trying to say p90x will help you get fit, but so will anything else, and it's a waste of money to pay for it - and it will not help you gain lots of muscle, just fit... which can be done for free.

I do not doubt that, but the reason I am hesitant to give up p90x is because I need some sort of structure and also some sort of motivation.  Maybe I don't.. who knows.  But I would definitely feel lost if I just stopped doing the program.  If I stop p90x and start over .. I think a good starting point would be that link in your signature - that seems catered to new people like me.


As far as my plan in regards to when I want to bulk - I figured after I lost my fat I would look into bulking programs.  I don't seem to be losing any fat though - I gained a few pounds.  Am I intaking too many calories?  I don't even know if I have been in a caloric deficit.. this is really confusing.  I am intaking about 2300 calories .. I am guessing I am burning at least 500 calories.. how do I know if I am in a deficit.  

So you're saying you recommend 2000 calories a day on cardio days and 2600 on lifting days.  Should I still main the 50/30/20 ratio of protein carbs fats?  You want me to lower the carbs on cardio days .. by how much though?  You want me to not complicate things.. but I'm sorry - I am just going to feel like crap everytime I eat now if I don't know what I'm doing - in order to achieve my goals - I need to know what is best for me to eat and when and how much!  

I have never heard of evidence that claims that you should not go for the insulin spike for PWO.  Do you?  Please let me know when you can get the evidence for me .  So youre saying intead of simple carb sugars, I should eat some low fiber carbs like veggies with my whey protein for pre and post wokout nutrition?  How far apart should they be from my workout?  How much low fiber carbs?


Thanks!


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## Built (Sep 4, 2010)

Kenny, you know you're in a caloric deficit the same way you know you're spending too much money: your "balance" goes down. If your scale isn't dropping, you're at (or over) maintenance. 

Are you weighing your food? There is a lot of measurement error in eyeballing portions. 

Regarding m11's post - there's a bit more to consider with p90x - it's not that it will get you into shape, that part is indeed true for many programmes, but there's a big difference between what you can reasonably expect to be able to do as a "normal-weight" person eating enough food to ensure no weight is lost,  from what you can sustain while dieting. It's like running a business - in a deficit, you don't increase expenditure (unless you're the government!) - instead, you look for new ways to become efficient. So does your body - it tosses out unnecessary muscle so you don't have to burn so much fuel. Increase your activity through a programme like p90x, where the weights you lift are not heavy but you're doing a lot of work - your body gets an even stronger message: "ditch these muscles NOW - he's burning way too much fuel and we have to try to prevent weight-loss!". Probably not what you really want. 

Furthermore, with resources low, it becomes very hard for your body to heal injuries. As you lose muscle, so to do you lose the ability to promote protein synthesis and tissue remodeling. Simply put, you start to wear out. The level of activity becomes increasingly unsustainable as your appetite soars (leptin down, ghrelin up), your metabolism slows to a crawl (thyroid down) and your body falls apart (cortisol up). 

If you somehow manage to exercise your way down to the bodyfat level you desire, you will now have to figure out how to maintain the loss. 

I have yet to meet a soul who has lost weight this way and sustained it for any reasonable length of time. To maintain the loss, you either have to maintain that level of activity, OR learn to eat a lot less, forever, or both. 

Now, if you are an otherwise fit person with say 5 lbs to lose (but no more), you'll manage just fine with p90x - provided you stop after a month or so. You'll probably lose a bit of muscle along the way, but you won't need to run a tremendous deficit while you do the programme. If you are lean enough and use p90x for conditioning, while eating at maintenance, you'll manage even better. 

It's like marathon training: do NOT try to use it for weight loss. It'll beat the shit out of you while slowing your metabolism. But once you lose the weight, and can eat to ensure that you don't lose any weight, your body will recover well enough and you won't beat the shit out of it by being overweight while pounding it into the road - so you'll be able to build up your training base. 

Kenny, lose the weight, then learn to maintain the loss for a while. Once you have that nailed, you'll become a member of a very elite club - very few people maintain the fat they lose, and this step is critical or bulking will be a journey back to obesity. I know of whence I speak - I was fat through most of the 80s and 90s back in my cardio bunny days.


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## Built (Sep 4, 2010)

Kenny537 said:


> I do not doubt that, but the reason I am hesitant to give up p90x is because I need some sort of structure and also some sort of motivation.  Maybe I don't.. who knows.  But I would definitely feel lost if I just stopped doing the program.  If I stop p90x and start over .. I think a good starting point would be that link in your signature - that seems catered to new people like me.


That's why I wrote it. 



Kenny537 said:


> As far as my plan in regards to when I want to bulk - I figured after I lost my fat I would look into bulking programs.  I don't seem to be losing any fat though - I gained a few pounds.  Am I intaking too many calories?  I don't even know if I have been in a caloric deficit.. this is really confusing.  I am intaking about 2300 calories .. I am guessing I am burning at least 500 calories.. how do I know if I am in a deficit.


From this point forward, ignore the calories you burn. Track only those you consume, and your weight. If you lose, you're in a deficit. Pretend exercise burns exactly nothing - it's just easier that way. 


Kenny537 said:


> Should I still main the 50/30/20 ratio of protein carbs fats?


Once you read the link in my sig on getting started, you'll see that there is no real logic behind dietary "ratios" - pay attention to the grams and the calories. 



Kenny537 said:


> You want me to lower the carbs on cardio days .. by how much though?  You want me to not complicate things.. but I'm sorry - I am just going to feel like crap everytime I eat now if I don't know what I'm doing - in order to achieve my goals - I need to know what is best for me to eat and when and how much!


Just breathe, and get your fitday going. 


Kenny537 said:


> I have never heard of evidence that claims that you should not go for the insulin spike for PWO.  Do you?  Please let me know when you can get the evidence for me .  So youre saying intead of simple carb sugars, I should eat some low fiber carbs like veggies with my whey protein for pre and post wokout nutrition?  How far apart should they be from my workout?  How much low fiber carbs?
> 
> 
> Thanks!


Current (and even former) fatties like us really don't need an insulin spike. It's highly overblown. You need to remember that much of the research on this was done on lean male college athletes. In obesity, insulin sensitivity is impaired - but movement improves glucose uptake through GLUT-4 (glucose transporters). This should help the pre-workout carb make better sense to you. Eat a bit of carb, THEN lift. After training, go back to the comfort of protein and fat so you don't overstimulate appetite. 

It really does mostly come down to comfort. If your diet is so miserable you can't sustain it, you're not going to lose anything, are you?


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## Kenny537 (Sep 4, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback Built.

Current fatties like you?  You're not fat!  Are you saying that fat people don't need an insulin spike, and only lean athletes?  For obese people, the insulin spike is useless?  I am not obese though.  Sorry, you just confused me more.  I read in your blog about comfort and I agree.

I have started reading your blog and it is very helpful!

One thing I am struggling with is how to design my diet the way you are specifying.  I have to start out by calculating my LBM.  The problem is that I don't know my body fat %.  I used one of those digital ones last month and it said 25%.  But that is the one that you just hold out with both your hands and it does it for you... so I don't think it's right.  I am sure I do have a high body fat %, just not that high.  I was a little chubby in high school and my first year of college (I'm 22 now) but now I don't think I would be considered fat by anyone, and I actually do have some muscle..  But it's sort of hard to describe.  Do you think it would be a good idea to post some pictures?  I will if it will help you help me .  

So my point is that you are saying take 90% of my "pipe dream" weight, and that is how I calculate my LBM.  The problem is that I have no idea what my pipe dream weight is.  My pipe dream is that I would like to lose my belly fat and have a six pack, and then get more bulkier.  So the first step is to lose my belly fat.. but I assume in the process of losing that belly fat.. I am gaining muscle.  So I have no idea how to calculate my pipe dream weight.  Am I overcomplicating this?  In your design, the macros and calories depend on your LBM, so it is obviously very important and I want to make sure I get it right.  

I weight  172 right now.  I am guessing if I weigh 140, I will have less body fat (hopefully).  But at the same time.. I don't want to weight 140 because I don't want to look like a scrawny stick figure. 

You are saying in your blog that resistance training will increase your metabolism and you will be burning calories long after you are done, while steady state cardio only burns calories in the process.  Therefore, for resistance training, your body needs more energy, so you should eat more.  I want to lose fat first, so I should do resistance training so my metabolism improves and I burn calories longer.  However, that means I should eat more.  However, you are saying to cut (cutting means the same thing as losing fat I am assuming), I have to drop total cals by 10-20%.  I cannot drop cals and eat more at the same time.  So that leads me to conclude that I am failing to understand something here.  Please help!  

Thanks!


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## Built (Sep 5, 2010)

I am not fat. I'm a former fatty. Once you've been fat, your appetite will never respond like it would have, had you never become fat. It changes you forever. 

Thank you for reading my blog! 

For the bodyfat thing, how about we say "20%" as a rough estimate? Use 80% of your current weight for an estimate of your lean mass, and assume it's right. It'll be close enough for this purpose. That puts you at around 135-140 lbs lean mass, and you'll probably have abs at around 150-155. That sound about right? If so, consider you have 140 lbs of lean mass and use that for a target - it'll really be close enough to anchor protein and fat minimums. 

Pretend for now that all exercise burns nothing at all. 

Eat less, you'll drop weight. Muscle, fat... everything. 

Eat less and lift heavy weights, and you'll protect muscle; however, your body MUST drop weight because of the caloric deficit you create by eating less. Thus you will drop fat. 

Now, stop thinking and just do it. Okay? Ignore the need for an insulin spike for now. Eat at a deficit, and make sure you get in at least 140g protein, 70g fat and 25g fibre daily. Eat as often or as infrequently as you wish. Lift heavy compounds three times a week, and do a little cardio (walking is fine) as often as you like.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 5, 2010)

Haha I would hope walking would be fine.  

I will do what you're saying about eating 1g protein per lb of LBM and .5g fat per lb of LBM and 25g fiber.  However, I don't think that estimation of LBM is accurate because I was 150 something pounds a year or 2 ago.  It might have even been less than 150 at one point, maybe 145.  But I still had the belly fat, probably around the same amount that I do now.  I am 170 now.. and I still look the same .. I think.  Maybe I just gained some muscle.  But it still makes sense that I had the same belly fat at 150 and at 170 since belly fat is the last to go.

How much of a deficit should I eat at?

I am assuming my maintenance calories are 14x my current body weight so about 2400 calories.  So now right now, for the last couple weeks, I have been eating at a deficit, but not by much, only like a 100 calories.  Although I did gain a couple pounds .. so I am guessing those are just noob muscle gains?

Thanks!


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## Built (Sep 5, 2010)

Okay, then our estimate of your lean mass will give you... um, seven grams more protein a day than you need. 

OH NO!!!

See how unimportant accuracy is here?

If you read the link in my sig, you'd know what deficit to run and how to build your diet. 

If you gained on 2400, you ate at a surplus, not a deficit. To lose, you'll need to eat less than you require. If you gained, by definition you at MORE than you require. Oddly enough, muscles do not defy Newton's laws any more than the rest of your body. 

Try 2000. 

You could try 200g protein, 80g fat and 120g carb if you like - or you could drop the carbs down to say 50-60g on non-training days and up to 150-180g on training days if you'd like to have extra food/carbs on the training days. It all comes down to running a deficit. You just need to find a way to do it that doesn't make you crazy.


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## Merkaba (Sep 5, 2010)

racer10 said:


> Also AM card is a good idea before your first meal. Then you are exercising on a fast. Good for fat consumption by your body.



Also good for chewing through muscle gains.  Thus limiting your "toning up" and decreasing strength and body composition


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## MDR (Sep 5, 2010)

Kenny537 said:


> Thanks for the input.
> 
> I am not sure I understand how the ratios obfuscate.  Could you expand on that please?
> 
> ...



Obfuscate means to get in the way of comprehension or understanding.  Seems to me that Built was offering a simpler way to understand your diet, and that the ratios are only serving to confuse the issue at hand.  Simply focusing on grams and calories makes it easier, while focusing on ratios only complicates matters.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 5, 2010)

Thanks for the responses guys.

Alright Built, I am in the process of designing my diet with your parameters.  One question - you guys are saying an insulin spike is not necessary?  But does it help at all?  I still have p90x recovery left over - should I use them after my workouts?   Or should I completely eliminate those from my diet.

I am trying to get my preworkout and pwo nutrition down right now.  What is your opinion on the superpump 250 I was taking?


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## Kenny537 (Sep 5, 2010)

So here are my macros on training days:

*1960 calories

143 carbs, 216 protein, 62 fat, 20 fiber  91 sugar*

I know it's not exactly what you said - but I'm not sure what else I can do to change it.  I think the sugars are very high.

6:30 AM  

1 cup goat milk, 1 scoop optimum nutrition whey, 5 asparagus spears, multi vitamin, 2 flax seed oil pils) 


9:15 AM 
1 cup Greek Style lowfat plain yogurt + 


12:15 PM

omelet + tomato/broccoli/spinach/onion


3:15 PM 

1/4 block tofu + cabbage


6M - 1.5 scoops of whey protein + apple

6:15 PM - 1 scoop of superpump 250

6:30 - 8:00 PM - workout / p90x recovery drink


8:30 - 1 scoop whey


11:30 - 12 - cottage cheese / avocado /  flax seed oil / walnuts


On non training days, I will lower carbs from 143 to 65 by having no recovery drink/superpump (-48), no apple (-14) , and I will replace cottage cheese with 2 scoops casein (-15), the calories will be lowered by around 300 though .. not sure what I can do to increase this without also increasing carbs.


Does that look okay?  Now I will try to get my exercise regime down!


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## Built (Sep 5, 2010)

You're a vegetarian, that's right. 

Ditch the tofu. Soy is not a food you should be eating daily. Flax seed oil won't convert to EPA/DHA to any appreciable extent. You don't eat fish at all, do you?


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## Kenny537 (Sep 5, 2010)

Thanks for the quick response.

No, sorry.   No fish either.  So what should I do?  Replace the tofu with another whey shake?  More liquid egg whites?  I heard soy isn't so bad for males as long as it is minimal.

  I should ditch the flax oil as well - I thought it was the next best thing to fish oil.


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## Built (Sep 5, 2010)

The soy thing, you'll have to play it by ear. Some feel it's okay, some don't. I CAN tell you it can interfere with thyroid function by competing with the thyroid for iodine, and that it is a source of phytoestrogen. In cultures where soy is a larger part of the diet, so too is seaweed - an iodine source. Fermented soy is safer to eat. Cabbage and other cruciferous vegetables may help you clear the metabolites of estrogen a little faster - they contain indole-3-carbinol  Indole-3-carbinol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Flax is in no way a substitute for fish oil. ALA must convert to EPA/DHA via delta-6-desaturation, and this enzymatic process may yield as litte as a few percent of your flax oil dose. 

You can buy algae-based EPA/DHA. It is VERY expensive, but it exists. 

By the way, as a vegetarian, creatine is a very good addition to your diet. I'd suggest 5g a day. The supplements you list, I don't know what's in them. I don't buy premixed supps - like most who have been at this for a while, I just get creatine monohydrate, dextrose, etc and make my own potions.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 5, 2010)

Well I am having cabbage with my tofu.  But I was just doing it for the fiber.  So would you recommend just eliminating the tofu?  What should I replace it with?

As for the algae based epa/dha - what about this?  h.t ~ t p://w ww.v-pure (dot) com
I can buy 180 capsules for about 50$ with shipping.  

Okay, I will look into creatine.  Do you recommend a particular brand or does it matter?  Also, when should I have the creatine (if that matters).  Dextrose supplementation is something I was going to look into, but I have the recovery formula which contains both dextrose and maltodextrin.  Would this be suitable?

Thanks!


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## Built (Sep 6, 2010)

Dextrose and malto are nearly identical - the difference is in the osmolality, which won't matter unless you're an endurance athlete. Use your "recovery" stuff until it's gone, then just skip it. I use white rice in a meal pre and or post workout for my carb, when I bother at all. Creatine, I buy monohydrate because it's the one that's been researched to death, and the one other creatine formulations are measured against in the literature. Many other formulations work as well as creatine monohydrate. I remain unconvinced any work better. I just buy whatever brand is on sale. To me, they're all the same. Take it in your pre or post workout shake. Or just knock back a teaspoon with water on your non-training days. 

The soy thing, it's really something you'll have to decide for yourself. PubMed home look up soy and testosterone. 

Those caps are the ones. Each cap supplies 0.2g EPA/DHA. My fish oil caps supply .3g EPA/DHA and I take ten of them for the 3g EPA/DHA ten grams of fish oil provides. You will need 15 caps to provide the same EPA/DHA as 10 fish oil caps.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 6, 2010)

Okay, I got it about the creatine.  I will use the recovery drinks until they are gone.  After that, have white rice + protein?   How close to your workouts pre and post do you have the white rice?  Is it with whey?

Oh wow.  Seriously?  I have to take 15 capsules a day?  That 50$ supply of 180 caps will only last a dozen days then.  Definitely not something I can afford!  No other alternatives??

I will go to the gym tomorrow and try out those exercises you specified in your newbie guide.  Thanks!


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## Built (Sep 6, 2010)

The alternative is eating fatty fish, or taking fish oil caps. I buy 300 at costco for 15 bucks - and that lasts me a month. 

Re eating: how about "when you're hungry"? 

Good luck.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 6, 2010)

Fiiiiine.  I'll eat when I am hungry ... crazy talk..

I am going to start the workout/diet tomorrow.  Hopefully this neck strain is gone by then.  I got a membership at lifetime.  I will try your whole body workout that you have outlined in your blog.  I am not too experienced with deadlifts and squats and things like that, but I'll try!  Thanks!


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## Built (Sep 6, 2010)

Try the squats with a dumbbell - goblet squats - until you get the form. For deads, watch youtube videos and make sure you keep the weight close to (read: in contact with) your body.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 8, 2010)

Hey Built - thanks for all the help so far, I really appreciate it!

I worked out for the first time today.  I forgot to take creatine though, I will start taking it everyday starting tomorrow.  I bought the micronized monohydrate creatine. The p90x recovery drink also has creatine, but only 500 mg from what I am reading.  Should I still take the 5g creatine even when I take the recovery drink?  I heard that some recommend cycling creatine.  Should I do this?

Here are some comments/concerns I had about my workout today.

- the pull ups on the smith machine are insanely hard - I can barely do one, so I did Lat pulldowns instead (50lbs on both sides)
- I did Goblet squats with 35 lbs ... but on the video that you have in your blog, it says Goblet squats are only for demonstration and for show so you can get the form down, and they wouldn't recommend using a high weight for this.  They are talking about doing air squats or something if I want to use a high weight.  
- I did 10 lbs on the Roman Deadlift - I think I can add more though - I'm not sure my form is perfect.. but I did feel changes in my lower back right after, so I think that is good.  Should I switch it up sometimes to do traditional deadlifts or any other kinds of deadlifts?  FYI the roman deadlift link in your blog is broken .

- for C1 - I did them on the compound row machine - is this okay? 155 lbs.   I also did the lat pulldown instead of weighted chins.  So I used two machines.  You mentioned several times in your whole body workout blog about the advantage of free weights - but you are giving machine alternatives.  So I am guessing you prefer I use the free weights?  The rows will not be a problem free weights, but the chin ups will be hard to get 3 sets of 5.  


I am confused on your D ab workout.  You are saying to do it sort of like the link you provided, but no twisting.  But there is no twisting in the way they do it in the link.  
What I did was just what they said, with the exercise ball, but I held on to a 45 lb weight while doing them.  


For the cardio - can I shoot some hoops instead of walking on the treadmill for 20 min?  Nothing intense, just shooting around.  

What do you recommend for stretching pre and post workout?  I am reading your high intensity interval foreplay blog, but I am getting the impression that it is for HIIT.  Although you are suggesting it for pre-workout so I will do it if you agree.  What about post workout?

Thanks again!


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## Built (Sep 8, 2010)

Yeah, take the creatine anyway. Half a gram is nothing. 

Do negative chins on the smith. Self-assist with your toes. These work better than assisted chins or lat pulldowns. When you're stronger, you'll be able to do the positives, but for now the negatives will do plenty of damage. 
Use the goblet squats to learn form - once you're holding an 80-lb dumbbell, you are probably ready to try barbell squats.
RDLs you should feel in your hams, not your back. Hold the weight closer to your body, like you're rolling a rolling pin down your body and back up. 
Stick to free weights wherever possible.

The vid for the crunches changed - I updated "homework I" - thanks for the heads-up. 
Hoops are fine. 
High intensity interval foreplay is excellent warmup for weights, or for sprinting. Post workout, slow stretches are ideal. 

Cheers.


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## unclem (Sep 8, 2010)

Kenny537 said:


> Fiiiiine. I'll eat when I am hungry ... crazy talk..
> 
> I am going to start the workout/diet tomorrow. Hopefully this neck strain is gone by then. I got a membership at lifetime. I will try your whole body workout that you have outlined in your blog. I am not too experienced with deadlifts and squats and things like that, but I'll try! Thanks!


 
ive seen people use p90x with great success , but, they were on gear. but it did make them cut and shredded. u dont want that. u got alot of great info. i can add u can get epa/dha omega3 fish oils at rite aide and vitamin shoppe. and just eatt when hungry and listen to built and the others. but i would avoid the creatine.it isnt hard getting cut up if u get the right advice. iam just learning alot from my trainer and here but i paid for my trainer your getting good knowledge here for free. just use simple things and eat smart and keep yourself in check and youll be ok. good luck.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 9, 2010)

Thanks Built - I will try what you said tomorrow.  So I should not cycle the creatine?  
You recommend doing this workout three days a week in your blog.  Was that recommendation just for people completely new to fitness?  Or should I stick to that as well for now?  I guess that makes sense since it is a whole body workout.  Maybe I can do yoga on an off-day? 

Built - what would you recommend for people that are older (my parents).  They are pretty unhealthy and I am trying to set a diet for them to start off with but I also want them to exercise.  But obviously they cannot do these high resistance exercises.  I am sure they can still do resistance exercises, but just not max out or anything of course.  My dad is 50 but has health problems and my mom is 47 and had knee replacement surgery on both her knees less than 9 months ago.

unclem - Can you expand on why I should avoid the creatine?  Also, I do not want to eat fish - I am vegetarian (lacto-ovo).

According to Built - flaxseed is no good for a significant amount of EPA/DHA - do you know any good deals for algae based EPA/DHA?  I haven't looked much yet, but perhaps if I find something in liquid form rather than pill form, it will be cheaper.

Thanks!


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## Built (Sep 9, 2010)

There is no rationale behind cycling creatine. I don't know why unclem doesn't recommend creatine - it's great for cutting because it helps your muscles hold more water - and anything that pushes water into your muscles - with no calories - while cutting is a good thing. This is particularly helpful for vegetarians. Go to PubMed home to read all the good things about creatine. 

Kenny, your mom is my age. I started training at 38, while overweight and on type II diabetes meds. I started with the same type of training I suggest in the link in my sig - but stupidly light. If they are both fat, the most important thing will be for them to get an iron grip on their diets. If they are VERY fat, I highly recommend Atkins. That's what I started with, and it really was ideal for me as a fat woman with an out-of-control appetite. They can accompany this with walking for now, or any form of low-impact, low-to-moderate movement they will do. They should both be seen by an exercise physiologist of some sort (NOT an ordinary personal trainer, for the love of God...) to see what they CAN be doing, safely, with regard to weights.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 9, 2010)

Thanks for the link.  Some of those PubMed articles go over my head because they are too scientific, but I'm trying to understand them.  Some of them are really informative and I'm able to find some I can understand.  So you recommend I only workout 3x a week?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10584048 - what do you think of that study?  I know it's a study for older men - but it's still seems like bad news for me haha.

My parents are not very fat, but I think their weight is gradually increasing.  And they don't have time to work out.  But my mom has a high body fat % ( she was measured at 67% by her new personal trainer ).  Although I don't even think that is possible, and even if it is, I do not believe it is accurate.  

My dad has high cholesterol and asthma and takes a bunch of medication for that.  Including a fish oil pill at night along with his other medications.  Besides the unhealthy, processed junk stuff he eats during the day, at night it is usually typical Indian food which consists of wheat flour + vegetables + white rice + lentil soup.  It is not the unhealthiest thing, but they do provide a lot of additional carbs (besides the veggies).  I asked him to record all the things he eats for one week so I can gradually start changing it, but I don't think he cares too much.  My mom will listen though.  

Do you think all vegetarians should supplement creatine or just those that do resistance training?  From my brief research it seems like all Lacto-Ovo vegetarians are low in it.  Should my parents supplement Vitamin B12?

I will research exercise physiologists and see if I can find one near me - thanks for the tip!


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## Built (Sep 9, 2010)

How tall is your mom, and what does she weigh?


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## Kenny537 (Sep 9, 2010)

5'4" 157 lbs


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## Built (Sep 9, 2010)

57% bodyfat means she's carrying 68 lbs lean mass. 

There is NO WAY this is accurate. 

I'm 5'7" and I carry about 120 lbs of lean NOW - and I've been training for almost ten years. I perhaps started with 100-105 lbs lean mass. 

She might be carrying 90-100 lbs lean mass. If it's 90 lbs, then she's just over 40% bodyfat. I was about 40% when I started, when I was 38 I was 170 lbs. She's shorter, so 157 lbs at her height probably puts her at about 40%. I'd go with that and get her to diet down to about 130 lbs. See how she looks and feels from here. Probably she will want to get down to about there, maybe 125. That will put her in the 25% - 30% bodyfat range, which is pefectly healthy for a woman her (my) age.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 9, 2010)

Nevermind - she says that the guy said she misunderstood him.  She was actually measured at 42% body fat, which is still high.  So you were pretty accurate in your estimation.  

I will try to work on her diet based on your methods and let you know what I come up with - thanks!

As for me, I understand what you are recommending now.  Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying it is more important to focus on resistance training than cardio because resistance training creates lean body mass.  And since LBM has a compounding effect, the process will speed up fat burning significantly faster than doing steady state cardio.  The latter only burns the calories you burn in the particular session, while resistance training gives you muscle gains which will burn calories 24/7.  

Is that right?  I thought that was all fine and dandy, but I am currently skimming through "BURN THE FAT FEED THE MUSCLE - Fat Burning Secrets of the World’s Best
Bodybuilders & Fitness Models
By Tom Venuto"

You have probably read or heard of it, but my point is that he is describing the different  body types, and I have no doubt that I am an Endomorph.  One of the nutritional/fitness strategies he listed for endomorphs is to do large amounts of cardio.

"Someone with a low endomorph component may stay lean with little or no cardio at all.
Endomorphs need a larger quantity of cardio to lose body fat. Most endomorphs will lose
fat with surprising ease by doing some type of cardio at least 4 – 5 times per week.
Extreme endomorphs usually need cardio every day (seven days per week). All
endomorphs will tend to gain the fat back if they stop doing cardio completely. Often,
they successfully lose weight, but then put it back on if they haven’t made the
commitment to continue exercising for life."

What do you think?  Also, should I really be working out only 3x a week?  Just want to make sure.  

Thanks!


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## Built (Sep 9, 2010)

Kenny537 said:


> Nevermind - she says that the guy said she misunderstood him.  She was actually measured at 42% body fat, which is still high.  So you were pretty accurate in your estimation.


That sounds better. From this point forward, with your mom, assume she has 90 lbs of lean mass, and that she'll hit 30% bodyfat at 130 lbs. If she diets down with a lot of protein (and not too fast), she shouldn't lose any lean mass. I'd aim for something like half a pound a week. Nothing more, she's too tiny and she's not lifting. 


Kenny537 said:


> I will try to work on her diet based on your methods and let you know what I come up with - thanks!
> 
> As for me, I understand what you are recommending now.  Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying it is more important to focus on resistance training than cardio because resistance training creates lean body mass.


No. You aren't going to gain a significant amount of muscle while losing weight. In fact, once you've become fairly lean and strong, you likely won't be able to gain any muscle at all unless you eat enough to ensure weight gain. You'll get a little bit of muscle while you drop weight, as a novice, but not very much. Basically, consider your cut a success if you only drop bodyfat. Most of us can no longer do this. 

The importance of lifting while cutting is the maintenance of lean mass. You don't want to use a lot of volume, since your ability to recover on a deficit will be small. You just want to give your muscles enough of a sign to say "hey, stick around, we need you to lift heavy shit for a few reps a few times a week". Grudgingly, your body will maintain the (metabolically expensive) muscle, and instead drop the low-fuel-consumption bodyfat it would prefer to maintain. 


Kenny537 said:


> And since LBM has a compounding effect, the process will speed up fat burning significantly faster than doing steady state cardio.  The latter only burns the calories you burn in the particular session, while resistance training gives you muscle gains which will burn calories 24/7.


Maybe. A little. The bigger deal by far is the maintenance of your existing lean mass. Cardio will do nothing to encourage this - in fact, it can and will do the opposite. 


Kenny537 said:


> Is that right?  I thought that was all fine and dandy, but I am currently skimming through "BURN THE FAT FEED THE MUSCLE - Fat Burning Secrets of the World???s Best
> Bodybuilders & Fitness Models
> By Tom Venuto"
> 
> You have probably read or heard of it,


I have. Not a fan - it's old school, and it'll work, but you'll probably lose a lot  more size than you need if you try to diet down to lean doing that. 


Kenny537 said:


> but my point is that he is describing the different  body types, and I have no doubt that I am an Endomorph.  One of the nutritional/fitness strategies he listed for endomorphs is to do large amounts of cardio.


I disagree. 



Kenny537 said:


> "Someone with a low endomorph component may stay lean with little or no cardio at all.
> Endomorphs need a larger quantity of cardio to lose body fat. Most endomorphs will lose
> fat with surprising ease by doing some type of cardio at least 4 ??? 5 times per week.
> Extreme endomorphs usually need cardio every day (seven days per week). All
> ...



Lift three times a week. For now, no more. Once you hit (or get damned close to) maintenance, you might want to revisit this to four. 

I disagree with the cardio statement. I was fat for twenty years. Cardio never leaned me out. That part is diet (run a deficit) with low-volume heavy lifting workouts. I do a little cardio, but not much, and not regularly. I basically consider exercise burns exactly NOTHING - to lose, I drop my calories.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 11, 2010)

Ok fair enough - I won't add any cardio - thanks!.  

Here is my what I did for my workout yesterday:

For the dynamic warm up - I was already sweating from it - I couldn't find a link where it showed me how to do the "Walking half-lotus overhand shin-tugs" for my glutes.

I believed I used all free weights

Goblet - 50 lbs
Romanian - 30 lbs
Smith Machine - 3 sets of 5 reps of only negatives - this helped TREMENDOUSLY - I was shaking so much on the way down, which is a good thing, and I really felt like I gained a lot of muscle in the arms in doing this!  I could only manage to do them when my wrists are facing me though.

Arnold - 25 lbs - I felt this in my lower back - is that a good thing or bad thing?
Dumbbell Rows - 30 lbs
Low Incline Dumbbell Press - 30 lbs
Bosu Ball - I held a 25 lb weight and did 3 sets of 7 

[I was sipping a little of the recovery drink throughout these exercises  - would you recommend this?]  After my workout, I drank the rest of the recovery drink + creatine

post workout cardio: - shot hoops

The only thing that concerns me is if I am in enough of a caloric deficit.  

How will I know that I have reached maintenance?  Once I lose my belly fat?  

I know I'm being impatient - because I've really only done the workout twice.  And I think yesterday was really the first time I did it right.  I am seeing some muscle gains .. even though you said what I am doing right now is mostly just to preserve my existing muscle while cutting down the fat - are these just preliminary newbie gains then I will stop gaining muscle?  Or am I eating too much?  For some reason my left arm looks more toned than my right arm, which is weird because my right arm has always been stronger.  I think my belly fat is slightly less, although I may just be imagining it.  I was a little sore today though - and I am trying my best to challenge myself and stick to 5-8 reps.  

I should drink plenty of water throughout the day now that I am on creatine, right?  Did you say that you would recommend creatine for my mom too since she is vegetarian, or just people that exercise?  

Thanks!


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## Built (Sep 11, 2010)

Maintenance is the calories you require to neither gain nor lose. You can be at maintenance while obese, it just means your weight isn't changing. You find it by tracking. For non-obese folks, it's likely to be somewhere between 13 and 15 times your bodyweight. 

To lose, you must eat less than your maintenance. To gain, you must eat more than your maintenance. 

My 80 year old mom takes creatine. 

You won't notice muscle gain this fast. BULKING you might gain one or two pounds of muscle in a month.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 11, 2010)

I was just using the bar on the smith machine to do negative pull ups - how else would I do them?

Okay, well if you are saying I haven't gained any muscle, well then I guess I haven't lost much fat either, because I am at 169.  Meaning I have lost a pound.  I guess that means I am on the right track then.


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## Built (Sep 11, 2010)

Smith is fine for negative chins.  

Two workouts is simply too soon to know. Just keep at this, monitor the intake and the weight, see how you feel and make adjustments as necessary. 

Sound good?


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## Kenny537 (Sep 11, 2010)

Yes lol - sorry if I am being annoying.

Also, I kind of fell off the wagon a little bit today.  I kind of get hungry toward the evening time, especially on non-workout days since I replace the cottage cheese with casein powder.  It doesn't help that my entire family eats unhealthy besides me.. and they always buy junk food.  But I've been really good about not eating all their taco bell and crap, but tonight they had leftover chinese in the fridge and i had a few spoonfuls.  That's basically carbs - the things I am trying to avoid lol.  But everything I eat right now sucks.  Eggs tofu and cottage cheese don't taste amazing haha(I don't have a lot of tofu), but I am used to them now - the only thing that tastes  decent is the greek yogurt.  I don't mind the shakes.  I didn't skip any meals, but the problem is that I still get hungry at certain times of the day I guess, and it was just right there in front of me!

I have bought some pickle slices and usually just munch a couple of those every time I have the urge to eat something bad, but it didn't work today!


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## Built (Sep 12, 2010)

Nothing wrong with eating at night - and if you're going to eat carbs, eat 'em near bedtime. That way you can brush your teeth and go to sleep before you do any more damage. 

What time do you train, and when are you hungriest - early in the day, or bedtime? Describe the timing of your meals through the day.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 12, 2010)

Oh - from what I was reading people tell me stick to carbs in the morning and fats at night (I have fats like avocadoes, walnuts, and flax oil with my cottage cheese at night .. i thought this helped slow the digestion).  Youre saying I should do the opposite?

I train in the evening - I start between 6 and 7 PM.  


During a typical workday:

6:30 AM - Whey shake + asparagus + multivitamin + flax seed pill + creatine (if its a non-workout day ... otherwise i take creatine PWO)

9:30 AM - Greek yogurt

12:30 - Omelet with spinach/broccoli/tomato/onion

3:45 - tofu + spinach

6:15 PM - Whey shake (+ apple if its workout day) 

6:45 - superpump 250

7-9 - workout + PWO recovery drink / creatine

9:30 - Whey shake

pre-bed - cottage cheese + avocado + walnuts + flax seed oil  (casein powder replaces cottage cheese to cut down on carbs on non workout days)


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## Built (Sep 12, 2010)

Why do you eat so frequently? Are you in fact hungry first thing in the AM, or could you wait until later to eat your first meal?


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## Kenny537 (Sep 12, 2010)

Because I have read everywhere that it is best to eat every 2-4 hours to keep your metabolism going so that your body does not go in to starvation mode.  

I don't really think I am hungry right away - but I commute to the city.. so I have a 2 hour commute every day, 4 hours total.  After the shake at 6 30, I do not arrive to work until around 9 AM.

But isn't it best to eat right away since your body has been starving all night?  I thought that was the whole point of eating the casein protein before sleeping, so the body can slowly digest it and therefore it starves for less of a time.


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## Built (Sep 12, 2010)

Kenny537 said:


> Because I have read everywhere that it is best to eat every 2-4 hours to keep your metabolism going so that your body does not go in to starvation mode.



It takes SO long for myths to die, doesn't it? The meal frequency thing got  disproved about 13 years ago:

Meal frequency and energy balance

Br J Nutr. 1997 Apr;77 Suppl 1:S57-70.
Meal frequency and energy balance.

Bellisle F, McDevitt R, Prentice AM.

INSERM U341, Hotel Dieu de Paris, France.
CONCLUSIONS AND PRIORITIES FOR FUTURE RESEARCH

We conclude that there is robust evidence from several independent laboratories to refute the hypothesis that feeding frequency is a significant determinant of energetic efficiency in human subjects when assessed over 24 h or longer. Consequently, feeding frequency has no significant impact on the rate of weight loss during energy restriction. We further conclude that the epidemiological studies which have suggested that nibbling is associated with leanness are extremely vulnerable to methodological errors which may generate spurious relationships due to dietary under-reporting and post hoc alterations in eating patterns in response to weight gain. Although these may not totally invalidate the cross-sectional studies, they highlight the need for considerable caution in interpreting the results and point to the need for a more critical analysis in the future.

Since we conclude that feeding frequency has no discernible effect on 24 h energy expenditure, then any putative effects on regulation of body weight must be mediated through effects on the intake side of the energy balance equation. Aspects of this question are reviewed elsewhere in this workshop (de Castro, 1997; Gatenby, 1997), but may also require fresh experimental approaches. Future research might usefully investigate the effects of meal frequency on spontaneous food selection and on the regulation of energy intake. This should address both the immediate effects of high and low meal frequencies, and the downstream effects on later meals. One prospective study in hyperlipidaemic patients already suggests that recommendations to increase or decrease meal frequency are accompanied by concomitant changes in overall energy intake and in body weight (King & Gibney, 1997). Interactions between meal frequency and habitual levels of physical activity might also be important. The difficulties of such research with respect to the confounding effects of under-reporting should not be underestimated.

In the field of eating disorders there is emerging interest in the potential interaction between eating frequency and the development and treatment of eating disorders. S68 F. BELLISLE ET AL.

Cognitive behavioural therapies for bulimia stress the importance of establishing regular meal patterns, and some practitioners are recommending high snack frequencies as a means of inhibiting bingeing. There is a need for a formal appraisal of the evidence base for such interventions.


Any decisions regarding dietary advice in favour of the adoption of nibbling or gorging meal patterns should be dominated by a consideration of the effects on carbohydrate and lipid metabolism (Jenkins, 1997; Mann, 1997), rather than on energy expenditure, where a prudent analyst would probably conclude that the metabolic effects are neutral."​
No need to eat at all during the daytime, either: The Leangains Guide | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health



Kenny537 said:


> I don't really think I am hungry right away - but I commute to the city.. so I have a 2 hour commute every day, 4 hours total.  After the shake at 6 30, I do not arrive to work until around 9 AM.


Since you're not hungry right away, don't eat. Wait. 


Kenny537 said:


> But isn't it best to eat right away since your body has been starving all night?


No. It's best to remain empty as long as you can stand it, then eat most of your food in large meals toward the end of the day, especially since you're training in the evening. 


Kenny537 said:


> I thought that was the whole point of eating the casein protein before sleeping, so the body can slowly digest it and therefore it starves for less of a time.



(Short-term) starving is healthy. Fasting is good for glycemic control. Read the leangains link I dropped up above to see how best to incorporate this, but in short, change your eating strategy.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 12, 2010)

Oh man, just when I thought I had a good grasp on things!

Thanks for the link - I am reading that website and also researching on my own and will let you know what I come up with.

In the meantime - do you incorporate IF (intermittent fasting) as well?  Do you know of anyone that is not lean and has high body fat % that has successfully done this technique in order to lose fat while maintaining muscle?


Thanks!


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## Built (Sep 12, 2010)

You don't have to jump right into intermittent fasting. My point here is that you also don't have to eat multiple small meals through the day, and that breakfast is easily the least important meal of your day. Skip it, eat your food in larger meals later in the day, and if you're going to eat any carbs, do it just before you train, in the evening. Once you're lean, eat carbs after you train, too.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 13, 2010)

Oh, Okay. 
So it is fine if I don't eat until whenever I am hungry.  But I should still maintain the same caloric intake and macros (I think it is about 1900 calories) even if I skip breakfast and possibly even have lunch really late?  Or it is fine if I do not reach the calories that I have set?  And should I also carb cycle?   I have been doing that.  Can I still have the multivitamin on an empty stomach in the morning if I don't eat in the morning?

Are you suggesting that I not do the intermittent fasting right away because it is not optimal for my situation or because you think that I will not be able to sustain it, or both?

I am still researching the intermittent fasting - I haven't had too much time yet, but I did work out today.  So far from my research I am getting the sense that it does have many benefits, and people on the other side say that the concept is understudied.   

Thanks!


EDIT: your comment about eating carbs before I train - right now, I usually just have a whey shake and an apple before I train, and then super pump 250.  The apple is probably not enough carbs, right?  Should I add white rice or something?

I have a lot of carbs right after I train with the recovery drink - (40g sugar)  - you told me to finish that up and then move on to things like white rice.  And I also have more carbs with the cottage cheese/avocado/walnuts/flaxoil at night on training days.    I guess I can just do straight casein powder to solve carb problem with the cottage cheese thing.  But I'm not sure how to solve the PWO if you are saying get rid of the carbs.


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## Built (Sep 13, 2010)

Built said:


> You don't have to jump right into intermittent fasting. *My point here is that you also don't have to eat multiple small meals through the day*, and that breakfast is easily the least important meal of your day. Skip it, eat your food in larger meals later in the day, and if you're going to eat any carbs, do it just before you train, in the evening. Once you're lean, eat carbs after you train, too.





Kenny537 said:


> Oh, Okay.
> So it is fine if I don't eat until whenever I am hungry.


Yes. 


Kenny537 said:


> But I should still maintain the same caloric intake and macros (I think it is about 1900 calories) even if I skip breakfast and possibly even have lunch really late?  Or it is fine if I do not reach the calories that I have set?


Whatever you like. 


Kenny537 said:


> And should I also carb cycle?


If you like. 


Kenny537 said:


> I have been doing that.  Can I still have the multivitamin on an empty stomach in the morning if I don't eat in the morning?


It won't make you feel sick? It makes ME feel sick. Have it with a meal. (Why would you even ask?)


Kenny537 said:


> Are you suggesting that I not do the intermittent fasting right away because it is not optimal for my situation or because you think that I will not be able to sustain it, or both?


Because it doesn't matter. You may not want to do that. That's fine, too. 


Kenny537 said:


> I am still researching the intermittent fasting - I haven't had too much time yet, but I did work out today.  So far from my research I am getting the sense that it does have many benefits, and people on the other side say that the concept is understudied.
> 
> Thanks!


Cool. 



Kenny537 said:


> EDIT: your comment about eating carbs before I train - right now, I usually just have a whey shake and an apple before I train, and then super pump 250.  The apple is probably not enough carbs, right?  Should I add white rice or something?


If you want. You don't have to have preworkout or postworkout carbs at all. If you do, go ahead. If you don't, that's fine too. 


Kenny537 said:


> I have a lot of carbs right after I train with the recovery drink - (40g sugar)  - you told me to finish that up and then move on to things like white rice.


If you want. Yes. If you prefer the sugar in the recovery drink, that's fine too. 



Kenny537 said:


> And I also have more carbs with the cottage cheese/avocado/walnuts/flaxoil at night on training days.    I guess I can just do straight casein powder to solve carb problem with the cottage cheese thing.  But I'm not sure how to solve the PWO if you are saying get rid of the carbs.


You don't have to. 

The only thing that matters is your calories. I was suggesting the carb timing for appetite control and comfort. If these aren't an issue for you, don't worry about it and have whatever you want. 

Really.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 13, 2010)

Okay I get your point hehe.  Caloric intake is the most important thing and everything else is insignificant in comparison.  

Here is another, unrelated concern I have.  I am getting like 4.5-6 hours of sleep on the weekdays - I have to wake up at 6 15 because I have a 4 hr commute.  I can barely sleep on the train.  I try to go to sleep early, like at 10:30 - 11,  but I can't manage to actually fall asleep until 12:30 - 1:30 (like right now).  Sleep is critical to getting the results I want, wouldn't you say?  I am taking the superpump at like 6 or 7 now, but only one scoop.  I am sensitive to stimulants I am assuming, since I have never drank caffeine in my life (pretty much none at all).  Although I don't know how much the superpump is contributing to the lack of sleep because I believe it still happens on non-training days, maybe not to as much of an extent, but I am not sure yet.  

Is there anything you would recommend?  I have looked at supplements like GABA, ZMA, and melatonin.  But I am not going to take anything like that without researching it thoroughly, and I just want your perspective.

Also, my stomach is fine if I eat the multivitamin on an empty stomach.

Thanks!


EDIT:  I also just realized I am getting 6.5 g of creatine on training days instead of the recommended 5g because of the superpump (1g) and the p90x recovery drink (500 mg).

Is this okay or should I cut it down to 5 by only taking 3.5g of the monohydrate on training days?


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## Built (Sep 13, 2010)

I take 10mg melatonin under my tongue at bedtime. I can sleep without it, but it's an antioxidant anyway. 

Creatine either way is fine. You just piss out the excess.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 14, 2010)

Do you take it everyday?  

Here is some research I have gathered on melatonin just based on browsing different articles.

Melatonin - reactions will of course differ from person to person  

 - may decrease libido?

- Since it affects your circadian rhythm, if you don???t take it at about the same time every night, it may cause you to lose sleep at certain nights.

- 10 mg seems like it is well above the dosage I should take, at least when I am first starting out, but I think recommended dosage depends on different factors.


I think I will start off by taking it an hour before I want to go to sleep, and only 2.5 mg, and only on the days I take superpump (3x a week right now)  How does that sound?


I am also thinking that I should supplement around 3g of Vitamin C daily - what do you think?


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## Built (Sep 14, 2010)

I did not recommend 10mg melatonin. I said that's what I take. Take it or don't. Up to you.

I don't see the point of more than a gram of vitamin C daily, but it's cheap and it won't hurt you.


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## Kenny537 (Sep 16, 2010)

I know you said I won't see any muscle gain, but I could swear that I appear more muscular.  Maybe I am just using the wrong phrasing.  Maybe it is not muscle gain, rather I am losing fat, which is making my existing muscles more visible?  Does that make sense?  Do you think that could be what is going on?

I believe I am down to 168 now.  

I am not eating anything in the mornings anymore .. just drinking water.. and sometimes I have my lunch pretty late.  

What calorie level for me, in your opinion, would be TOO low, where I would start losing muscle along with the fat?

Thanks!


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## Kenny537 (Sep 23, 2010)

Here is an overall update on where I am at now:

167 lbs and I am seeing improvements in the mirror

*DIET:*
Training days: 1700-1800 (+more carbs)
Non-training days: 1500-1600 calories

I have been incorporating intermittent fasting for the last few days (Leangains).  

Based on your blog, I'm going to try 1/2 cup of cooked white rice pre work-out today along with my scoop of whey protein and superpump.

*LIFTING:*
I have been trying to increase weight gradually each workout day.

Goblets - 65lb (3x7)  (I can barely grasp this dumbbell!)
Romanian - 50lb (3x5)

Negative Pull-Ups (3x7) (these are getting easier and I feel more confident doing normal pull-ups now)
Arnold Press - 30lb (3x7)

Dumbbell row - 45lb (3x8) (will increase today)
Low Incline Press - 35lb (3x7)

Bosu Ball - 25lb (3x8) (will increase today)

*CARDIO:*
I decided to do a steady walk on a high incline last time - I will likely do the same today, but I want to slowly start incorporating 20 minutes of HIIT a couple days a week, a HIIT technique like the one you have outlined in your cardio blog.

----------

I also have a base test scheduled to measure body fat among other things, along with two personal trainer sessions and a nutritionist session (all free from lifetime via LT Bucks).  Hopefully the personal trainer can help me out with my form because I am still feeling it in my lower back afterwards when I do the goblet squat/romanian dumbbell deadlift.  Perhaps I should start wearing a belt.  

My main question is: Do you think I should start moving away from this workout soon and going into Patrick Ward's workout that you recommended in your blog?  (Got Built? » Simple Variation).   I think you will say keep at this until I stop noticing improvements, but I thought I would ask anyway.

Thanks!


*SUPPLEMENTS:*

- ON Whey Powder
- ON Casein Powder (non-training days)
- ON Creatine 
- P90x Recovery Drink (still researching on what to do for PWO after this runs out)
- SuperPump 250 (I will try Jack3d after I run out of this)
- Vit C
- Flaxseed caps
- Centrum Performance multivitamin
- Melatonin (I have tried this two nights last week, 1g and 2g - not sure if it helped but during the 2g night, I had two terrible nightmares, but it might have just been a fluke).
- I still don't think I am getting enough fiber, so I am considering fiber supplements along with searching for algae oil and researching calcium/vitamin D supplements.


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## tennfan (Sep 30, 2010)

OMG this site is mainly bodybuilders and up and comers and were talking about crossfit and vegetarians. Neither of which work if you want to be big and lean. sorry


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## Kenny537 (Sep 30, 2010)

Thanks for the encouragement.  Not sure what crossfit is though.. I don't do it


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## Built (Oct 2, 2010)

tennfan said:


> OMG this site is mainly bodybuilders and up and comers and were talking about crossfit and vegetarians. Neither of which work if you want to be big and lean. sorry


That was random. 



Kenny537 said:


> Thanks for the encouragement.  Not sure what crossfit is though.. I don't do it



Never you mind about crossfit. Just keep doing what you're doing for the next month or so, okay? Get some strength going, get your bloodwork back and keep reading. How do you feel on your current diet?

Re the supplements:



> - ON Whey Powder
> - ON Casein Powder (non-training days)


Protein is protein. Use whichever you prefer. Or skip it entirely and just eat food. 



> - ON Creatine


If this is plain monohydrate, that's great. One teaspoon a day. 



> - P90x Recovery Drink (still researching on what to do for PWO after this runs out)


You won't need anything special. An ordinary whey shake is fine, or water and  a meal. When you get leaner, it'll matter a bit more. For now, it really doesn't.



> - SuperPump 250 (I will try Jack3d after I run out of this)


Or ephedrine with caffeine. Cheap and effective. Or a coffee.


> - Vit C


One gram a day is good


> - Flaxseed caps


Ditch these. Get some fish oil. Take ten a day. 



> - Centrum Performance multivitamin


That's fine. I take a multi, also. 


> - Melatonin (I have tried this two nights last week, 1g and 2g - not sure if it helped but during the 2g night, I had two terrible nightmares, but it might have just been a fluke).


Some folks get nightmares from it. And I think you mean milligrams, not grams!



> - I still don't think I am getting enough fiber, so I am considering fiber supplements along with searching for algae oil and researching calcium/vitamin D supplements.


Frozen raspberries. Thaw them and toss 'em into plain yogurt with splenda. Do that post workout instead of a shake. When you lean out a bit more, you can sweeten this with dextrose instead of splenda. Algae oil? Just get fish oil. Vitamin D is good - I take 3000 IU daily. I don't bother with calcium anymore though - I eat a lot of dairy. 

For fibre, in addition to the raspberries, eat a lot of broccoli. It helps clear estrogen metabolites out of your body anyway. Other great fibre sources: green beans, romaine, kale, raw nuts, & avocados.


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## Kenny537 (Oct 3, 2010)

Down to 166 lbs now.. I think I am losing a lb a week.  Is there anything specific I should ask the doctor for the blood test, or just do a generic one?

I feel fine on my current diet - no complaints.  Lots of powders though.  I still get temptations to just start eating random bad, high carb foods around the house... but those should be reduced by a lot because I will be moving to the city in the next month, and living by myself instead of with my unhealthy eating family! (That's not why I'm moving out though lol). 

I have taken melatonin on occasion after that, and no nightmares .. yeah I meant I take 2 mg not grams lol.  
-------------------
It's hard for me to skip the protein powder .. I am vegetarian remember?  You recommended algae oil since I could not have fish oil.  But I am beginning to think that maybe I should just take the fish oil caps ... I cannot find any reasonably priced vegetarian algae oil caplets.  Well, I can.. but not for the dosage requirements that you (and Lyle McDonald) are recommending of 3g per day.  

It would run me about $125 a month so that is not an option.  

I have looked at buying EPA and DHA individually (Lyle recommends 1.8g of DHA and 1.2g of EPA). This would be significantly cheaper.. maybe about 80$ a month.  Still not cheap.  Weird thing is that the EPA is manufactured from yeast and not algae (at least this one).

I have been a vegetarian all my life .. but if you think that I should break my rule in this case, if it really is that beneficial .. I guess I will.  As long as I'm not actually eating the raw fish.. and it is in pill form, it shouldn't be that disgusting.  Lyle says it helps with fat loss too, among other things.    

For fiber right now I am eating broccolli, spinach, collard greens, a few avocado slices, and a few walnuts.  Along with that I am taking a teaspoon of ON Fiber powder.
----------------------------
I was going to do the recovery drink until I ran out of it.. although I think the 40g of sugars might be harming more than doing good.

So you think I should stop doing the p90x recovery drink post workout immediately then?  And do the raspberries/yogurt/splenda instead?  Did you add the splenda in just for taste reasons?  Because I can do without that if that is the case.  

1 cup of frozen raspberries + 1 cup low fat greek yogurt will equal:

32 carbs (13 sugar)
27 protein
12 fiber (that would help a lot!)
(+ 5g creatine)  

= 270 calories

So that would be my post PWO macros .. what do you think?

Thanks!


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## Built (Oct 3, 2010)

1.8 g DHA and 1.2g EPA comes to 3g combined EPA/DHA, which is contained in ten grams of ordinary fish oil. I pay $15 bucks for 300 capsules (one month's supply) at Costco. 

I like splenda. It makes everything yummy. 

See? Lots of fibre in raspberries. Get some dextrose; you'll want to use that eventually for pre/post workout, but for now, just use stevia or splenda. Or nothing, so you can enjoy the brutal acidity of unsweetened yogurt and unsweetened raspberries. Your call.


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## Kenny537 (Oct 10, 2010)

*UPDATE*:


*Weight*: Just under 163 lbs.

I have lost about 7 lbs in a month doing your workout/diet plan!  And from the mirror it seems like it is virtually all fat!  Thanks a lot!!

*Exercise* 

Still lifting 3x a week.  Still 5-8 reps, resting 1-2 minutes in between sets

I was doing 70 lbs with the goblet .. but I ditched them because it is way too hard to grip those dumbbells now .. I have been doing barbell squats instead  - 

Do you think I can move on to the barbell for deadlifts as well?  I started 60 lb dumbbells for the Romanian Dumbbell Deadlifts today.

*Diet *
Haven't changed much.
I do the raspberries + yogurt PWO now.  Yeah, you were right - the acidity is brutal  - I think the splenda helped today.

I finished reading Lyle's Rapid Fat Loss Handbook.  I am kind of mixed based on what Lyle says.  I get the impression that it is for people with higher than 15% body fat, meaning me .. but also his reasoning kind of seems like this to me:  he does not recommend crash diets, but reality is that people will do it anyway, so here is the safest crash diet.
What is your opinion on me trying this?  What I'm doing right now is working great though.


*Supplements*

I added:

fish oil (10g a day)
vitamin D
Calcium Citrate
a teaspoon of fiber powder

I am also probably going to add zinc and magnesium very soon based on what I am reading from Lyle. (Supplements Part 1 | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald)
I am also considering adding b12 and iron since Lyle believes that are lacking in a vegetarian diet, and are poorly absorbed unless you eat red meat.  
I won't considering supplementing any iron until I do my blood test and see where I am at with that.

What do you think?


----------



## Built (Oct 10, 2010)

This all sounds great. 

Do switch to barbell deads. I'm glad to hear of your progress. 

Re RFL - no need for now. You're doing great. Why crash diet if you don't need to? (Although, if you need to, you're correct, this is the right way to go).

How do you feel?


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## Kenny537 (Oct 10, 2010)

I feel fine - maybe a little back soreness (probably from the squats today).  

The diet allows me to feel satiated.  More so when I eat an omelet from the egg whites rather just gulping down the liquid.  

Also I really love the leangains IF 16/8hr approach - I just eat roughly from 3-11 PM every day .. it is super convenient!


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## Built (Oct 10, 2010)

Isn't it just so much EASIER? I mean, I'd rather feel full part of the day and hungry part of the day, than underfed and frustrated ALL day!

I'm glad you're coming along so well with this. Way to drink the koolaid.


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## Kenny537 (Oct 13, 2010)

I usually don't even feel hungry until later on in the day anyway, so it is a breeze for me .

I have a concern about my workout and a question about my diet.

*EXERCISE*:

I am concerned about my form for squats and dead lifts.  I am not even sure what kind of squat I am really doing.  I just make sure to keep my back straight and slightly arched back, use my hip as a hinge, stick my butt out, and go down.  I started off by watching YouTube instructional videos.   I am still feeling it in my lower back afterwards, although I think my entire back is also starting to feel a little sore, which is good right?  Should I buy one of those belts that I see people with?

I read Lyle’s article here: Beginning Weight Training Part 3 | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald  and he talks about how 99.9% of people do their squats wrong and don’t have decent form.

Reading that really made me self conscious about my form when I was squatting yesterday and it probably affected my performance.  Same goes with RDL.  I tried RDLs on the barbell for the first time.  I think I do those better than the squats at least.

*DIET:*

So I think what I have been doing is a high end moderate deficit.  I am not as concerned about such a high deficit because I am reading that you won’t really lose much LBM at a high body fat %.  To make things even, let’s say I am at 160 lbs.  Multiply by 14 and my maintenance would be about 2200  calories.  I am eating at about 1600-1700 calories a day.  This is about a 23-27% deficit.  

I want to know what you think about high calorie/carb refeeds.  I am still reading about it, but I get the impression from Lyle that there are a lot of benefits to it in terms of hormonal changes (raising leptin levels temporarily is one benefit I am reading about).
Bodyweight Regulation: Leptin Part 6 | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

Would you recommend someone in my situation incorporate high calorie/carb refeeds into their diet plan?  If so, what would you say the frequency/amount should be?  Right now, I think I have done this a couple times – every other Saturday I kind of regard as a sort of cheat day.  He also mentions full diet breaks.

I don’t think it’s really that important right now since Lyle mentions that leptin drops more and more as one gets leaner and leaner.  Since I am not tremendously lean, I don’t think it is as critical or should be incorporated as frequently.  Also, he mentions that IF’ing may somehow help with this as well, so that is good for me.

Thanks!


----------



## Marat (Oct 13, 2010)

Get a belt. I'd recommend a single-prong one from EliteFTS or Inzer. Regarding your form, post a front and side video and we'll straighten your technique out.


----------



## Kenny537 (Oct 22, 2010)

Sorry, I've had a busy week moving to the city.

I took a few videos last week which I'll post sometime soon.  The good news is that I am down to 160 lbs now!  I gained a little bit (from 162 to 163 last week), which I assume was water weight, and then after eating lots of carbs this past weekend (mmm taco bell), it dropped down at least 2 lbs!  I think Lyle describes this as a "whoosh"


----------



## Built (Oct 22, 2010)

That is indeed a "whoosh". 

Nice!


----------



## Kenny537 (Oct 26, 2010)

*UPDATE:*

158.8 lbs!



Marat said:


> Get a belt. I'd recommend a single-prong one from EliteFTS or Inzer. Regarding your form, post a front and side video and we'll straighten your technique out.



I have not purchased a belt yet but I did take a few videos:

MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

The green shirt squats were a couple weeks ago - the black shirt was last saturday.  Hopefully you see a slight improvement in form with the black shirt because I got some advice to keep my head up and feet wider (I was not doing this during the green shirt video).  I also took a video of Romanian Deadlifts.

*DIET*

SuperPump is about to run out - I'm going to try an EC stack now for pre-workout.  I figured just getting the ephedrine/caffeine pills from Walgreens.  Unless there is a more economical way to buy it in bulk somewhere?  For dosage, I am going to try and work up to Lyle's recommended dosage of 20mg E + 200mg C taken 3x a day for 60/600 daily total.

I'll start out with only 1 dosage per day of 10mg E + 100mg C.  

Should I take this daily or just for pre-workout on days I exercise (3x a week)?

Thanks!


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## Built (Oct 27, 2010)

Daily.


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## Life (Oct 27, 2010)

I 2nd the fish oil recommendation. If you aren't going to do it then you should be taking a lot more flax, conversion isn't anywhere near as good.

I don't agree with Built on the protein is protein point. I've read a number of studies showing usage of one protein (Whey) vs. multiple types (Whey+Casein) of protein and diversity always pulls out ahead in fat loss and lbm gains. Granted the individuals in the studies were overweight to begin with..


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## Built (Oct 27, 2010)

Diversity pulls ahead because of satiety issues, Life. Protein powder as a nutritional supplement is protein powder. And the research shows that whey used as a preload works to promote satiety when followed by a solid meal.


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## Built (Oct 27, 2010)

Richard Gears said:


> built, you ever have someone drizzle chocolate syrup over your abs and lick them clean?


By the time I got my abs to look that way, I was so damned hungry I'd have licked it off myself!


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## Kenny537 (Oct 27, 2010)

Okay I bought some bronkaid + caffeine pills from CVS today.

So no one has an opinion on my squat video?  I have perfect form? (yeah right).


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## Life (Oct 27, 2010)

Kenny537 said:


> *UPDATE:*
> 
> 158.8 lbs!
> 
> ...



Get a little wider, turn your toes out further and go a hell of a lot deeper. You may have flexibility issues but keep working at it. You'll know when you're deep enough because you'll "bounce" back up.


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## Kenny537 (Oct 27, 2010)

Thanks I will do that.  By get a little wider, I assume you mean my feet and not my hands, right?
So just go as deep as I can as long as I think my back is straight and as long as I bounce back up?


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## Life (Oct 28, 2010)

You might not be able to bounce back up, it depends on how deep you can go. When you bounce it is because you've loaded your hamstrings, you might just be relying on your quads for the time being. If that is the case you won't "bounce," go up and down like normal until flexibility increases. And yeah I meant your feet, everyone is different. I have to go pretty wide before my hips "open."


----------



## Simply_Michael (Oct 28, 2010)

Best thread ever award to this 1, also built I have so much respect for you and your guidance:  u also crushed myths I has heard about every 3 hours eating and macros. Crushed by built 

Kenny great job on listening and losing weight! !!
Trust this info Is priceless


----------



## Built (Oct 28, 2010)

Okay, I watched your form vid (next time use youtube btw), and you're not sitting back far enough. 

Try this. Grab a dumbbell or a plate (25 lbs ought to do it for now) and perform a goblet squat. See how far you go down? Weight is through your heels. That's how a barbell squat should feel. Get rid of the pad, hold the barbell lower down on your trap, it won't hurt and the position won't force you to do a good morning. 

But try the goblet squat first to get the form. PS you don't need a belt.

Click my "getting started" sig to see a goblet squat.

Edited: or click here: http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/22/20544.jpg


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## juggernaut (Oct 28, 2010)

Built's on the money here with the goblet squat and form. One thing you need to know is to start relatively light and let the weight grow without sacrificing form above all else. She informed me also a few years back that for my structure and height, front squats are better suited for me. I love them, and pull them from the floor to make it a bit more challenging.


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## Kenny537 (Oct 28, 2010)

Supa_Spence said:


> Best thread ever award to this 1, also built I have so much respect for you and your guidance:  u also crushed myths I has heard about every 3 hours eating and macros. Crushed by built
> 
> Kenny great job on listening and losing weight! !!
> Trust this info Is priceless



Definitely.  I was so lost in the beginning of this thread and Built and everyone else were and still are very patient with me, and helped me tremendously.  Marat also really helped me in convincing me to get rid of p90x, and I'm really glad I did!  
I posted that I was 172 on Sept 5th and I'm down to 158 now, and I think it's pretty much fat.  It's been a solid 2lbs/week.  I just can't wait until I start seeing my abs and then start bulking eventually.  



Built said:


> Okay, I watched your form vid (next time use youtube btw), and you're not sitting back far enough.
> 
> Try this. Grab a dumbbell or a plate (25 lbs ought to do it for now) and perform a goblet squat. See how far you go down? Weight is through your heels. That's how a barbell squat should feel. Get rid of the pad, hold the barbell lower down on your trap, it won't hurt and the position won't force you to do a good morning.
> 
> ...



I did do goblet squats for at least an entire month.  I dropped them because it was hard to grip the larger dumbbells.  
I'll drop down the weight and try doing them again and then try to manipulate that feeling into the barbell squats.

I'll try to improve on this based on what you guys are advising and post a video in a week or two.  Hopefully you see an improvement - thanks!


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## Kenny537 (Nov 1, 2010)

Built - I asked you last month how long I should continue this workout, and you told me to do it for another month.  It's been a month and I am wondering what you think at this point.  Should I continue this?  Or should I move on to the Patrick Ward workout in your blog (Got Built? KISS Workout)  Or should I give Starting Strength a try?

Correct me if I am wrong, but the primary reason I am currently weight lifting is simply to preserve my existing muscle tissue while my diet is doing most of the fat burning via the calorie deficit.  As my only method of keeping track of this is the mirror (I hate calipers!), I would not really be too sure right away when my current workout is starting to be less effective and I am losing some muscle along with the fat.

On another note, I am planning on having some general bloodwork done this Saturday.  Still not sure if I need to make any special testing requests.  I am going to try to test testosterone levels assuming it is not very expensive.

Thanks!


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## Built (Nov 1, 2010)

How much weight do you use for each of your lifts?


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## Kenny537 (Nov 1, 2010)

Here is where I am at right now:

*Squats/Romanian deadllifts* - I went back down from 70lbs to 50lbs in order to fix my form.
*Weighted Chins* - I can now do about 6 reps of pullups per set - I only do 2 sets though, and during my 3rd set I do 8 negatives.  My grip is a split between palms facing me and palms not facing me.
*Arnold Press *- I switched these from sitting to standing.  So I am still on 35 lbs (3 sets of 5)
*Dumbbell row* - 55 lbs, 3 sets of 5
*Low incline -* 40 lbs, 3 sets of 5
*Bosu ball crunches *- This one is sort of weird - I usually use a 35 lb plate.. but I don't feel like any rep amount I give you would be accurate as the intensity of this exercise varies depending on where your butt is relative to the bosu ball.  I usually keep moving my butt around until I find the right intensity.


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## Built (Nov 1, 2010)

Keep it the same until you're squatting and deadlifting a plate a side. 

For shoulders, try switching to Oly bar corner presses. You tried 'em yet?


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## Kenny537 (Nov 1, 2010)

A plate a side?  Is that weightlifting lingo ?  Do you mean 45 lbs on each side?  

I have not tried Olympic bar corner presses.  I can try and learn it though.  You recommend that I try those out instead of the Standing Arnold Presses?

Lol I just read my last sentence from my last post - I sure hope that doesn't come back to haunt me!


----------



## Life (Nov 1, 2010)

Kenny537 said:


> A plate a side?  Is that weightlifting lingo ?  Do you mean 45 lbs on each side?



Yes. And she'd probably prefer the corner presses to arnold's too  Especially considering there are eighteen thousand variations of "arnold's".


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## Kenny537 (Nov 4, 2010)

Okay thanks.  I will google how to do Oly bar corner presses and do those instead of Arnold Presses.  Didn't know there were lots of variations of it.


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## Built (Nov 4, 2010)

I updated the "homework 1" sticky. Oly bar corner press is in there now.


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## Kenny537 (Nov 8, 2010)

Okay I checked it out.  The pictures give me an idea what to do - but I usually also like to follow along a youtube instructional video the first few times I do a new exercise.

Unfortunately, google/youtube does not agree much with "Olympic bar corner press".  Are there alternative names to this exercise?  What is the most common thing that it is called?

Haven't been able to find any good instructional videos.


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## Marat (Nov 8, 2010)

YouTube Video


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## Kenny537 (Nov 8, 2010)

Ya that was actually the only one that I found - just wanted to be sure he was doing it correctly.  So I guess he was then!


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## juggernaut (Nov 9, 2010)

a better site to check out is ExRx (Exercise Prescription) on the Net I dont like some of the YouTube videos because the form done on the YouTube videos suck.


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## Kenny537 (Nov 10, 2010)

Thanks for the link jugger.  

I never thought I would say this but I think I am losing weight too rapidly!  At least for the last week.  I have lost 4+ lbs in 4 days.  I would normally not have a problem with this, but I think it's partially muscle loss.

Weighed myself today and I am down to 152.2

About 2 months ago I believe I started at 172.  I started keeping track Oct 1st, basically just weighing myself every time I went to the gym - here is how it went:

10/1: 166
10/7: 164.5
10/10: 163
10/12: 162.2
10/14: 163
10/21: 160
10/23: 159.3
10/26: 158.8
10/28: 159
10/30: 157.4
11/2: 156.6
11/6: 156.4
11/10: 152.2 (today)

I have been going at around 1500 cals (1600-1700 on workout days)

I am guessing that the huge drop is a combination of eating carbs this past weekend (whoosh), which is fine... but also it hasn't been a good week for me at work the past 7 days (stressful and depressing!) and I wasn't following my diet as well I should have.  That is not to say I was eating more, but less actually - and also skipping/slacking on a couple workouts.  That's probably the reason why this happened but I thought I would post anyway to be safe.

Everything is back on track now diet-wise so hopefully I don't lose weight this rapidly anymore!  (unless it's all fat loss).  Should I eat a little more calories?  I finished my workout today but I felt a little dizzy and maybe a mild headache (still sort of do) while doing it so I didn't lift as much weight.  It may just be because of the EC stack that I started a couple weeks ago.  I am still not dosing to the full 60/600 (E/C) that Lyle recommends, but 40/400 usually, if that.


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## Built (Nov 10, 2010)

You didn't drop muscle. You dropped glycogen. 

Why have you been eating so few calories? What is maintenance for you? For most reasonably fit, non-obese people, maintenance is around 15 x your bodyweight, so around 2300 is likely. How much more do you intend to lose?


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## Kenny537 (Nov 10, 2010)

Well that's good news that you think it's not muscle loss!  Yeah, that calculation is pretty much what I did for maintenance based on what you said earlier.  I  just multiplied my body weight by 14 and just assumed it was near there.  I have never tested it though by counting calories.  So right now 152 x 14 = 2128.

I guess I am/was in too much of a deficit.  It's probably closer to a 30% deficit than a 20%.. . assuming maintenance is 2150-2300.  Probably not a good thing, right?  I think Lyle defined large deficits as 25%+.

The only problem is that when I get to the 1500-1600 mark, my macros already look good.  I'm already at the moderate amount of fat (around 50g) and I am at 50-70g carb depending on if it is a workout day or not.  And then I am usually around 180-200g protein.  
I know that calories take precedence over macro-nutrients though.  So the only way to increase calories is by protein - because I figure I'll have better results if I keep carbs/fat around the current levels.  And it's just hard with being a vegetarian.  I can only gulp so many cups of liquid egg whites!  

As for how much I intend to lose - I was going to lose as much as I could until my body fat% was at a point where I can see abs.  I kind of thought that's what you were recommending based on previous posts, but I was planning on asking you this anyway.  Should I just keep cutting until I see my abs?  I have marginally less belly fat than when I started, but there is still a good amount there and I feel like I still have a while to go before it's all gone.


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## Built (Nov 11, 2010)

Increase the fats. I like mine at around 80-120g daily - almost as high as my protein intake, actually. In a short while, you might want to consider transitioning into a maintenance phase, where you gradually bring up calories while increasing your training volume. Might help you recompose a bit, plus training while well-fed feels marvelous!


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## Kenny537 (Nov 11, 2010)

So for fats - do you have any recommendations on what to eat to increase them?  My primary sources right now are walnut, avocado, fish oil, and tofu.

Okay - so gradually increase calories and training volume in order to go to maintenance?  I think I understand how to do that, but I am still not clear on why you recommend to do this.  Shouldn't I lose as much fat as I can right now? 

Unless you are recommending easing back to maintenance only temporarily.  Maybe for a few weeks?  Are you thinking of something similar to Lyle's "full diet breaks"?  Where carbs are 100-150 and I eat at maintenance for a while?  He recommends this to raise thyroid/leptin and lower cortisol, and for psychological reasons.  But I believe he would recommend to do it for at least a month for someone like me.


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## juggernaut (Nov 11, 2010)

natural peanut butter, coconut/macademia nut/olive oil, steak, salmon


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## Kenny537 (Nov 11, 2010)

Good idea with the peanut butter - I'll buy that today.  I think the coconut has too many complementary carbs that come with the fat.  But I can certainly look into macadamian nuts and also buy some olive oil and start sprinkling it on random stuff I guess.

I'm vegetarian so salmon and steak are out of the question.

Thanks!


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## Built (Nov 11, 2010)

Avocados are the bomb. Butter's a good source of calories too, as is coconut milk.


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## Kenny537 (Nov 11, 2010)

Okay - I purchased butter, peanut butter, and things like that.  I will go with 1650-1700 on non-workout days and 1900 on workout days?  How does that sound? 

Was I on the right track with my previous post on why I think you recommended for me to go back to maintenance?  

Thanks!


----------



## Kenny537 (Nov 22, 2010)

I guess I will just keep trying to lose fat until I think I am at 10-12% body fat - and then start bulking after a maintenance period.  Still got a while to go to get to that range though.

I took some new squat videos.  Hopefully they are better than last time.

Could you guys please critique me again?

*Front View:*
MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

*Side View:*
MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

Thanks!


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## Built (Nov 22, 2010)

It's too much work going into megaupload. Toss it into youtube.


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## Kenny537 (Nov 22, 2010)

Oh yeah - I forgot about that.  Okay, here are the youtube links!

Front:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8bDCC_0QRA

Side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFLzPyYboK8


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## Kenny537 (Nov 26, 2010)

Built - did you get a chance to look at the videos yet?  Or anyone else too for that matter - any useful advice would be much appreciated.


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## Built (Nov 26, 2010)

You're struggling to stay BACK - you go down with your butt, but then kinda drift over toward your knees. 

Do a vid with a heavy dumbbell as a goblet squat. I want to see that you CAN at least get down there okay.


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## Kenny537 (Dec 1, 2010)

Okay - I took a couple videos doing goblet squats.

YouTube - gobletsquat1

YouTube - gobletsquat2

Thanks!


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## Built (Dec 1, 2010)

Those look fine.


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## Kenny537 (Dec 1, 2010)

That's good to hear!  

I'll take a couple more videos doing barbell squats based on your feedback.


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## Built (Dec 1, 2010)

No need. From here, you'll feel it. Do a few goblets, then try the barbell work, the do a few goblets to find your form again. 

If you can't do back squats, stick to fronts and get your form down. Think "push through heels"; "sit back and down".


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## Kenny537 (Dec 6, 2010)

Built - a couple of months ago you told me to get some blood work done.  I finally did that a couple days ago (12/04).  Today, I talked to the doctor on the phone about her interpretation of my results, and she also faxed me a copy of the results.  Unfortunately, when trying to decipher the results myself .. I have no idea what any of it means 

It was a basic CBC I believe.  She said that the only major thing that stood out to her is my BUN (Blood Urea Nitrogen).  She said it is elevated, it is supposed to be 23 and mine is 33.  My creatinine level is 1.0 and she said it supposed to be 1.3.  She said that since creatinine is relatively normal, she did not think it was any kidney diseases (the urinalysis was "normal")

So I did some searches and it does seem like that a BUN/creatinine ratio of 33 is abnormally high.  I don’t want to jump to any conclusions (i.e. Prerenal azotemia).  I am reading that such a high ratio can mean something as simple as dehydration or as serious as heart failure, but it has nothing to do with the kidneys themselves (prerenal).  I'm sure it's nothing to be alarmed about - it is probably because I am not drinking enough water?   I thought I was drinking plenty of water, but she seems to think I am dehydrated.  I really would like your thoughts on this.

She said my total protein was too high as well though (it is 8.4 and the upper limit is 8.2)  
Besides that, she said that everything is normal (blood count, cholesterol, etc.).  I don't want to just take her word for it though.  I'm currently digging around Lab Tests Online: Welcome! to see if I can make sense of some of my results.

*WEIGHT UPDATE:*
(checked during preworkouts)

10/1: 166
10/7: 164.5
10/10: 163
10/12: 162.2
10/14: 163
10/21: 160
10/23: 159.3
10/26: 158.8
10/28: 159
10/30: 157.4
11/2: 156.6
11/6: 156.4
11/10: 152.2
11/14: 154.4
11/16: 153.6
11/19: 152.4
11/21: 155.2
11/23: 152.4
11/28: 152.4
12/01: 152.2
12/03: 149.0
12/05: 152.0

I overall look more toned when naked - and now, when I suck in my gut, I am starting to see the beginnings of my abs!  That has never happened before!!  It's exciting 
(I can also sort of see my ribs now though which sucks)


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## Kenny537 (Dec 6, 2010)

I'm told by my brother that the high BUN may simply be to due to my high protein intake (160-210g).


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## Built (Dec 6, 2010)

Dear Mom and Dad are you worried that your teenager is getting too much protein?


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## Kenny537 (Dec 6, 2010)

Great info - thanks


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## Kenny537 (Dec 11, 2010)

*WEIGHT UPDATE:*

11/16: 153.6
11/19: 152.4
11/21: 155.2
11/23: 152.4
11/28: 152.4
12/01: 152.2
12/03: 149.0
12/05: 152.0
12/08: 150.2
12/10: 155.8 (refeed)

*FRIDAY*
I noticed that my weight has been fluctuating around 152 lately. I don't want to say anything prematurely, but it looks like my fat loss has stalled, or at least it is not dropping at the rate it used to anyway.
And I have been feeling sort of feverish/fatigued lately - especially thursday evening ... and also during the past couple weeks while doing my workouts. Which is odd because I have caffeine (EC stack) before my workout (3x daily regardless)

So since I was feeling like this, I did a refeed today- first time I did a structured one - here is what I did:

------------------------
About 3500 calories (my maintenance is probably around 2200)

500g carbs, 53g fat, 235g protein, 39g fiber, 70g sugar (didn't count the fructose but it shouldn't be above 50)

The food will be eaten throughout the day, a lot of the carbs before and after my workout. 

Carb sources include: captain crunch, pasta, steamed white rice, minestrone soup, fresco 7 layer burrito, frozen raspberries, potbelly sandwich, etc .
------------
My LBM is around 120-125 lb I am thinking..

I wanted to do my workout today too - it would be perfect with the refeed .. I went in the gym though and gave up after the first miserable set - I had a major shooting headache.   The only two variables were the lack of an EC stack and the massive increase in carb intake - I am pretty sure the latter is the reason for the headache. Probably should have started with a 5 hour refeed instead of a 24-hour.  Crazy though how my weight shot up 5.6 lbs cause of the refeed lol.  

*SATURDAY (TODAY):*

Couldn't workout today either because I still feel like shit.  Had a lot of carbs today as well (150ish)- the headache is gone.. but I'm feeling really hot all over, a major sore throat, sneezing and sort of a runny nose .. and I'm losing my appetite. I feel like I have a fever but the thermometer reads 98 degrees. Man I hope this goes away soon.


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## Built (Dec 11, 2010)

Sore throat isn't the refeed - you're sick. Rest up.


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## Kenny537 (Dec 30, 2010)

*WEIGHT UPDATE:*
11/16: 153.6
11/19: 152.4
11/21: 155.2
11/23: 152.4
11/28: 152.4
12/01: 152.2
12/03: 149.0
12/05: 152.0
12/08: 150.2
12/10: 155.8 (refeed)
12/15: 150.4
12/17: 149.0
12/19: 149.0
12/22: 148.0
12/26: 149.0 (refeed) (Full Diet Break begins!)
12/29: 147.6

Built, please let me know what you think of my plan going forward.  I noticed my fat loss rate has slowed down, so I went on a full diet break last Sunday.  The plan is to do it for two weeks, and then start RFL for two weeks.  What do you think?

*DIET FOR FULL DIET BREAK:*
Addition of beans, blueberries, bananas, and additional raspberries.  The extra fiber is great, but is this too much fructose?

Before the full diet break,  I was at around: Calories:1500-1700 (170protein, 50carb, 75fat)

Now I am:
Non-workout day: Calories:1900 (170protein, 139carb, 80fat)
Workout day: Calories: 2150 (198protein, 167carb, 83fat)

*TRAINING:*
I have still been doing your "Basically, Training" workout 3x a week.  I find that I cannot really increase the weight anymore at all, even though I increased it rapidly early on.  Is this okay?  I figure it is because my newbie gains are no more.  I felt good doing it yesterday though - I guess being in the full diet break gave me more energy/carbs to work with.

So if you do agree that I should do RFL, do you think I should stick with this workout when I start RFL?  I would think that I would need to cut volume while maintaining intensity in order to preserve my LBM on RFL.  And maybe decrease training frequency to two days a week?

Thanks!


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## Built (Dec 30, 2010)

You'll know it's too much fructose by your appetite - if it's out of control, stick to berries. Bananas and tree-fruits tend to be higher in sugars. 

RFL could work. You've got it with the workouts - full-body twice a week, and as much walking every day as you please.


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## Kenny537 (Jan 11, 2011)

*MY RFL PLAN (2 weeks)*:
I have finished reading RFL. I have been on a full diet break for the last 2.5 weeks after fat loss had stalled from a moderate deficit for the last 3~ months. I plan on starting RFL on Sunday and I want to make sure there isn???t anything hideously stupid with my RFL plan, any critique would be appreciated. 
*DIET*:
860 calories, 151 protein, 24 carb, 13 fat
It???s pretty much protein sources + fish oil, the 24 carbs are just complementary. It specifically consists of liquid egg whites, yogurt, cheese, whey/casein powders, veggies, (mainly broc/spin), and fish oil. And water obviously. 
5 hr refeed once per week
*SUPPLEMENTS*:
Vitamins/minerals, creatine, dextrose (16g each before and after workout), EC stack, finasteride
*TRAINING ??? full body workout (2.5x per week, 5x total*) 
All 2 sets of 6-8: 
Back squats, RDLs, pull-ups (half will be negatives), Olympic bar corner presses, dumbbell rows, low incline db press, bosu ball crunches


I think I am around 17-18% BF right now, I am hoping these two RFL weeks will bring me down a few percentage points. I can???t wait to be down at 12% BF so I can start reading and hopefully doing UD2!

Thanks!

Built - regarding back squats - I know you said I'd be fine going forward - but I still feel it in my lower back when I am doing back squats, some days more than others - I want to post a couple more videos if that's okay.


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## Built (Jan 11, 2011)

Sure.


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## Kenny537 (Jan 25, 2011)

YouTube - IMG 0160 NEW
YouTube - IMG 0161 NEW

Here they are - these are from a couple weeks ago.  I am getting more confident doing them - but that doesn't mean I'm doing them well hehe.

I have a question about my training.  I know that the intensity is important to maintain when trying to preserve muscle mass (aka "lift heavy"), but I was wondering if my intensity needs to constantly increase during a cut.  Do I need to keep progressing in weight in order to maximize my efforts at LBM preservation?

I ask because when I first started your workout, I was increasing the weight so rapidly (being a newbie), but for the last couple months - I have pretty much almost maintained the intensity - If I am increasing, it is not in every exercise, and the ones that do increase, it is increasing at an extremely slow, snail rate.  Is this normal?  I mean, I cannot gain much muscle tissue in a calorie deficit, so wouldn't it be logical to think that I cannot continue increasing intensity too much until I stop cutting?  Please let me know your thoughts!

My RFL is going well - I will post an update on the stats on Sunday when I finish it.  I am thinking 2 weeks RFL > 2 weeks Full Diet break > another 2 weeks RFL.

Thanks.


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## Built (Jan 25, 2011)

> wouldn't it be logical to think that I cannot continue increasing intensity too much until I stop cutting?



Yep.


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## gtbmed (Jan 25, 2011)

Kenny537 said:


> YouTube - IMG 0160 NEW
> YouTube - IMG 0161 NEW
> 
> Here they are - these are from a couple weeks ago.  I am getting more confident doing them - but that doesn't mean I'm doing them well hehe.
> ...



First things first, regarding your squat form:

Bring your hands in much closer together and hold the bar with your thumbs above the bar, not under it.  You want your lower back to be extremely tight and your arms' only purpose is to pull the bar into your lower back - it should not wobble on your back like it is currently.

Also, initiate the movement with your hips.  It looks like you are leading with your knees.

Last, "spread the floor" with your feet when you drive the bar up.

Now as for your questions, it is normal for you to gain strength quickly when you start training, regardless of your diet.  That said, it is tough to keep progressing when you are cutting weight, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.  When you start out, you can make progress in every training session.  Soon you make progress every week, then every month, then you have to start thinking about different ways to periodize your training to continue your improvement.  But on a long-term cut it's really more difficult to gain strength.

Remember that your goal with a cut is to improve relative strength.  If your bodyweight is dropping and your strength levels are staying the same or slowly improving, then you are improving your relative strength and you shouldn't be worried about preserving LBM.


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## Kenny537 (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm glad you guys think the intensity progression is not a big issue on a cut.  Hopefully that lowers my concerns for LBM loss - I am getting awfully skinny though.
I do not want to raise intensity, especially right now, since I am on the RFL diet.

gtbmed- Thanks for the feedback regarding the squat form - I will take your advice and hopefully post an updated video later on!


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## Kingjames99 (Jan 29, 2011)

I've read through this thread and what I gather is lift heavy and eatting mostly protine is the best way to lose weight. Right?


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## Kenny537 (Jan 31, 2011)

*UPDATE:*
RFL is finished (2 weeks)!  Just finished yesterday.  New weight is *141.8*.  I am seeing slightly more ab definition now.  I was hoping to lose more, but that is okay.

My plan is to move into a full diet break for the next 2 weeks and then do RFL again for two more weeks.  I think I did the Full Diet Break incorrectly last time.  I misread Lyle's suggestion for carb intake.  Instead of the 140g carb intake I did last time, I am planning on intaking 200-220g carb.

*Full Diet Break Info:*
Calories: 1900
Protein: 170g
Carbs: 200-220g
Fat: 35-45g

*WEIGHT UPDATE:*
09/16 172.0 lb
10/01 166.0
10/21 160.0
11/16 153.6
12/17 149.0
12/22 148.0
12/26 149.0 (refeed - maintenance begins (FDB))
01/09 148.0
01/11 148.0
01/16 (maintenance ends, RFL begins)
01/17 145.2
01/21 145.2 
01/23 143.0 (refeed)
01/27 142.5
01/30 141.8 (refeed, RFL ends, maintenance begins (FDB))
----------------------------------------------------------
Any comments/suggestions?


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## Kenny537 (Feb 13, 2011)

Full Diet Break is over - doing RFL again for two more weeks! I think I should see better results this time since I did the full diet break correctly.

*WEIGHT UPDATE
*
01/11 148.0
01/16 (maintenance ends, RFL begins)
01/17 145.2
01/21 145.2 
01/23 143.0 (refeed)
01/27 142.5
01/30 141.8 (refeed, RFL ends, maintenance begins (FDB))
02/03 143.0
02/05 143.0
02/08 142.0
02/11 142.5
02/13 (RFL begins)
__________________


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## Built (Feb 13, 2011)

This is very cool! August you were 170; now you're 142. Maybe it's time to try something like UD2.0 - you can't be carrying very much fat anymore!


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## Kenny537 (Feb 13, 2011)

It's all thanks to you! 

I was 172 on Sept 15th and that's when you started really helping me, so I always like to tell people I've lost 30 lbs since September.

I haven't finished reading UD2 yet, but that is definitely the plan after my BF% gets lower.  I see the beginning of the top two of my abs without needing to breathe in - but I still think I am at around 17% though.  If I remember correctly, I think it is recommended that you should be down to at least 13% for UD2.


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## Built (Feb 13, 2011)

Remind me again - how tall are you?


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## Kenny537 (Feb 13, 2011)

5 ft 7 in.   

I've taken pictures too, pre and post RFL anyway.


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## Built (Feb 13, 2011)

No more RFL. You'll disappear. You're my height and I currently out-weigh you. 
I don't think you're as fat as you think you are. I think, grashopper, it's time to move toward UD2.0


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## Kenny537 (Feb 13, 2011)

Gasp!  I was looking forward to RFL!  I don't think I really got the results I could have the first time since I didn't do the full diet break.

You really think so?  Would seeing pictures change your mind?  I thought I should diet down to 15% at least.  I better finish reading UD2 lol.


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## Built (Feb 13, 2011)

Show some pix. I don't think you're as fat as you think you are.


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## Kenny537 (Feb 13, 2011)

The left side of the picture is pre-RFL at 148 lbs and the right is post RFL at about 142 lbs.
I was told pre-RFL that my BF% is 16-20%  
It does seem that my BF% has lowered a bit in the right picture - but I still thought it was 17%ish


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## Built (Feb 13, 2011)

No more RFL. Time to start putting on some muscle, my friend. You've just got a bit of a soft tummy, and that'll tighten up as you get stronger.


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## Kenny537 (Feb 13, 2011)

Okay, you win.

I have been reading UD2 for a good while today.  I am almost done, but I can already tell that I will need your help with the training portion.  I am trying my best to take notes on what Lyle is saying and I will post what I think needs to be done - hopefully you can help me in the beginning and validate my plan!

Thanks!


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## Built (Feb 13, 2011)

You don't have to do UD2.0 if you don't want to - another alternative is to just train four days a week, do a bit of cardio and creep the calories up, slowly, until you're at maintenance - meanwhile, train hard and get your strength up. You can always do UD2.0 later on.


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## Kenny537 (Feb 13, 2011)

It's not that I don't want to.  I was always looking forwarding to doing it.    It's just that I thought that I wasn't lean enough.  
The secondary reason I am hesitant is because I am still not as confident with my basic knowledge of strength training fundamentals.  My only real experience with training has been doing your "Basically, Training" routine for the last five months.  And even with that, I don't think my form is perfect.  
So what I mean is that I don't think I can just design a workout based on the parameters Lyle gives.  

But in the book, he does give sample workouts - so I guess it is not so bad - I can just use those, right?  I am sure I will have some questions with the training early on - so hopefully you will be here to provide some pointers!  

-------

So I finished reading the book and I think that I will start this diet on Tuesday.  Tomorrow will be the last day of my full diet break.
I was going to post all of my notes on here - but I think I will instead just post my notes for the following day until I eventually post my entire cycle (7 days). 

So if I start Tuesday as day 1 - my training days will be Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, and Sunday.  That fits better with my schedule anyway.


*Day 1+2:* (Tues/Wed (02/15-02/16))

*GOAL:* Deplete muscle glycogen in all major muscle groups

*DIET:* 1400 calories - 140g protein, 60g carb, 66g fat (MCTs+Fish oil?)

*SUPPLEMENTS:* Protein powders, EC Stack, Fish oil (10g), multi, Vit E, Zinc, Calc, Glutamine, MCT oil

*TRAINING* - full body workout, 5-6 sets per bodypart, 1 min rest between sets.  The weight is 60% of 1RM.

Leg press (3x15)
Leg curl (3x15)
Chest press (3x15)
Row (3x15)
Lat raise (2-3 x15)
Calf raise (3x15)
Bicep curl (2x15)
Tri pushdown (2x15)

^ do all of that, rest a few minutes and then repeat it.
----------------------

How does that look?  I haven't yet planned out the details on what and when I am going to eat.  Tomorrow I will need to go buy some Glutamine, Zinc, and MCT oil though.  Hopefully GNC has it.  I should probably YouTube the forms on those workouts tomorrow so I don't go in blind on Tuesday!


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## Kenny537 (Feb 17, 2011)

I finished the two days of depletion workouts.  It wasn't very fun.   
I pretty much followed that routine in my previous post.  Would you recommend I add in some ab work?  

Tension workout is tomorrow and Power workout is Sunday - I just can't wait for the carb loab to arrive!!!!


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## Kenny537 (Feb 20, 2011)

First week of UD2 is done.  I look bigger :}.  

Did you use MCT oil as your fat source when you did UD2?


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## Built (Feb 20, 2011)

You could do some weighted ab work if you like. I didn't use MCT oil, no.


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## Kenny537 (Mar 7, 2011)

I just finished my 3rd cycle today.

One question I have:  am I taking in too much fructose during my carb refeed?  Lyle recommends only 50g I believe but I'm not really sure how to calculate that.

On Friday evening (my carb load day) I had:

*Preworkout*: 

140g frozen raspberries - 80 calories, 17 carb, 6 sugar, 9 fiber

*Post workout and later on that night*:

340g frozen raspberries - 194 calories, 41 carb, 15 sugar, 22 fiber
282g blueberries - 161 calories, 41 carb, 28 sugar, 7 fiber

I may be wrong but I don't believe you count the preworkout as a part of the 24 hour carb load - it starts with your post-workout drink.  
Keep in mind that I ate other food as well but I only listed the fruit related stuff.

Lyle recommends high GI stuff in the beginning of the carb load with a shift to low GI later on (24 hr carb load duration).  I am just concerned that this may be too much fructose - so the two questions I have are:

- How do I determine if this is indeed exceeding 50g of fructose?  Do I just subtract the sugar value from the carb value (would that mean carb minus sucrose = fructose?)
- If it is too much fructose, what are some high-GI, non-fructose alternatives that I can replace it with?

Thanks!


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## Built (Mar 7, 2011)

Half the sugar is fructose. 

Use dextrose and starches, like white rice, to reduce fructose consumption from your carbups. Other than that, if it's working you're fine.


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## Kenny537 (Mar 8, 2011)

Oh wow.  I was misunderstanding Lyle when he recommended 50 fructose and 100 sucrose.  I thought they were two separate things but they are one and the same - particularly, I have been eating lots of frozen raspberries around my workouts since October.  All this time I was significantly going over his recommended limit.
I'll be sure to reduce this - thanks a lot!


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## Kenny537 (Mar 22, 2011)

Just started Week 6 today.  

I started UD2.0 at 142.5 (2/15) and I weighed 139 today.

Do you think it's possible that in those five weeks I lost 6ish lbs of fat and gained a few lbs of muscle? That would make the numbers make sense. I do see subtle improvements in the mirror. 

Plus, I already have calories restricted to almost as low as 1200, so I'm not sure what else I can do outside of adding in some LISS cardio.  Do you think I should add that in?  I don't really do any right now.


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## Kenny537 (Apr 11, 2011)

Built - I just finished eight weeks of UD2.0.  I'll post an update on that soon - but here is my short-term plan going forward:

Full Diet Break for 3 weeks (until May 2nd) - (incorporating an IF eating pattern)
6-8 more weeks of UD2.0 (starting May 3rd)

I wanted your input on what workout I should do for these three weeks.  

The 4 choices that come to mind for me are:

*1. Continue where I left off with your "Basically, Training" program.* I've done this from September (when I started) until I started UD2.0 on Feb 15th.  I recall you telling me a while back that I should keep doing this program until I am doing 45 lbs on each side (90lb+bar total) for my back squat.  Yesterday, I was up to 70lb on each side (140 + bar total).  Although keep in mind that this was for my Power workout on UD2.0 so it was simply 2 sets of 3 reps and not the 3 sets of 6-8 reps like I was doing with your training program.

2. *Try your "Baby Got Back" program*.  This looks very interesting.  However, the feeling I am gathering is that beginners should stick to whole body workouts 3x a week.  This seems more of a split routine that is four times a week.   Is this still too advanced for me? What are your thoughts?

*3. Try out Patrick Ward's K.I.S.S. program*
This seems like a good fit for three weeks and seems pretty straightforward.  Although I'd probably do 4 weeks instead of 3 just for completeness. 

*4. Try out Starting Strength. * I really want to give this program a try since I've heard so many good things.  But I haven't read the book yet.  Not sure if it's worth it starting this for 3 weeks and then going back to UD2.0.


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## Kenny537 (Apr 28, 2011)

So I have just been maintaining with #1.  I've been reading up on Lyle's bulking routine for the past week - gonna start that soon.  Have you ever tried it?  If so, did it work well for you?


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