# Hunched Shoulders



## Ak_88 (May 24, 2008)

I'm not quite sure whats its resultant from - perhaps not helped by leaning forward when i'm working amongst other things, but i feel my shoulders are further forward than perhaps they should be.

Is there anything training wise i can do? I've heard that not balancing pushing and pulling movements can cause imbalances like this, my current routine is;

Chest/Bi

Decline Bench - 3x8
Incline Bench - 3x8
Dips - 3x6-8

EZ Bar Curls - 12, 10, 8, 6
Hammer Curls - 2x10
Conc. Curls - 3x6-8

Legs

Front Squat - 3x8
Leg Press - 3x10
Leg ext/curl - 3x12/3x10
Calf Work - 4x15

Shoulders/Tri

Cleans - 4x5
Some form of OHP - 3x8
Lateral Raises - 3x8
Machine Press - 3x10
CGBP - 3x10
Dips - 3x6-8
Rope Pulldowns - 3x12
Cable Lateral Raises - 2x8

Back

Deads - 4x6
Machine Row - 3x8
Lat Pulldown - 3x8
T-Bar Rows - 3x8
Face Pulls - 3x8 


If you count the push vs pull work, theres 9 sets chest, 9ish sets Delts and 16 sets Back.

Any suggestions on how i could sort this problem out?

Thanks

Ta


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## Witchblade (May 24, 2008)

Read the post about internally rotated humeri in my FAQ. I bet you have that too.


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## Built (May 24, 2008)

Ditch leg press and leg curl - switch to Romanian deadlifts and split squats. The RDLs will give better ham stimulation anyway, and adds another "deadlift/pulling" stimulus to your back work. Split squats are an excellent sub for leg press: they're "whole leg" work, they're free and they're unilateral. And you have to hold a heavy barbell like you would for a squat, which is a shoulder stretch on its own. 

Unrelated to your posture, but related to shoulder health: Start doing chins rather than lat pulldowns, and make sure you go no wider than shoulder width. 



As another aside, ditch decline bench. Try your barbell work as 5x5 for a while, then 3x8 for dumbbell work. Start doing some low cable flyes or dumbbell flyes at the end of your bench workouts to stretch out the pec after you work it. 

Stretch the hell out of your pecs whenever you think of it. Start doing "doorway" stretches every door you walk though. Do it like a game. 

Work on your scapular mobility. Here's a really good drill to use: 





YouTube Video











Boris Bachman. He's awesome.


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## Ak_88 (May 24, 2008)

Seems they're not - palms are facing each other in the alignment position (i.e facing each IT band)


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## Ak_88 (May 24, 2008)

Built said:


> Ditch leg press and leg curl - switch to Romanian deadlifts and split squats. The RDLs will give better ham stimulation anyway, and adds another "deadlift/pulling" stimulus to your back work. Split squats are an excellent sub for leg press: they're "whole leg" work, they're free and they're unilateral. And you have to hold a heavy barbell like you would for a squat, which is a shoulder stretch on its own.



Thanks for the input on these although i'm not looking to change my leg routine currently.



> Unrelated to your posture, but related to shoulder health: Start doing chins rather than lat pulldowns, and make sure you go no wider than shoulder width.



LP's will only be in use for 2 weeks or so longer - reason being the bars at my current gym are far too close together, making it far more forearm/bicep work than lats. After that i'll be going back to chins as i'll be at a different gym.



> As another aside, ditch decline bench. Try your barbell work as 5x5 for a while, then 3x8 for dumbbell work. Start doing some low cable flyes or dumbbell flyes at the end of your bench workouts to stretch out the pec after you work it.



Stretching i'll take on board - although i'm currently avoiding BB benching movements as i've had rotator cuff problems in the last few months which are aggravated by barbell work. Decline DB is much easier on the joint and relevant musculature. 



> Stretch the hell out of your pecs whenever you think of it. Start doing "doorway" stretches every door you walk though. Do it like a game.
> 
> Work on your scapular mobility. Here's a really good drill to use:
> 
> ...



Thanks - i'll factor this drill into my routine - pre/post upper body sessions?


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## Built (May 24, 2008)

The mobility work I'd do away from a  workout, actually. The split squats and RDLs were specifically for leg work but they also make sure you get your shoulders stretched back with weight on 'em more frequently during the week (split squats) and that you get more pulling (RDLs). Plus they're awesome! 

The recommendation for narrow is to ensure two things: narrow grip hits lats far better than wide does, AND it's better for shoulder health as an added perk. Wide-grip work actuall removes the emphasis from the lat and places it on the rotator cuff, although this is one hell of a myth to kill out there. 

That being said, try your lat pulldowns one arm at a time. Unbelieveable pumps, a really great way to  get in the higher-rep lat work at the end of a heavy chin workout.

I have this "forward hunch" naturally, AND I've broken/trashed my right shoulder. I'm offering you the best of the tricks I've used. 

Face pulls are great by the way. I sometimes use them for a warmup before I hit up chest, just to stretch everything out and help remind me to get good scapular retraction when I bench.


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## Ak_88 (May 24, 2008)

Thanks for the advice bud.

I'm doing steady state cardio on my off days - would this be a better time to do my mobility work then (in terms of stretching/RC work etc), or should i add 2-3 sets at the end of each workout instead?

Single arm pulldowns - presumably best one with a single cable attachment (same type you'd use for a cable crossover for example) than the usual pull-down bar?.


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## Built (May 24, 2008)

Yes, that's exactly right, the thing that looks like a stirrup. I hold the front of the seat apparatus with the opposite arm so I can stay upright, and really pull the elbow into the lat. You'll see what I'm talking about when you do 'em.

A few shoulder movements I also really like are Oly bar corner presses and Arnies. Anything that hits side delt a bit is helpful too - I'll sometimes do Oly bar corner presses as 3-4 sets of 6-8 reps a side, then Arnies supersetted with side laterals. Helps get the illusion of width going, yanno?


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## Ak_88 (May 24, 2008)

Yeah i think i see what you mean. I'm a little bored of DB/BB pressing and i could probably do with cutting it down a bit so i'll replace them with corner presses for now.

Would it be worth while adding a few sets of horizontal pull ups or other pulling exercises away from back training to spread out the work over the week - rather than destroying the posterior chain once a week?


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## Built (May 24, 2008)

Oh, I could not agree more. Frequent hits.

Have you looked at my split? You might like it: 

Got Built? » Baby Got Back
Scroll to the end for the split. It was also published on WBB. 

Two leg days, one of which has RDLs so you do pulling that day; upper body work broken up into vertical and horizontal planes with pulling on both days... 

You can incorporate the suggestions I've already given you with this split. Have a look. See how you like it.


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## Ak_88 (May 24, 2008)

I'm going for a full body routine that i've had suggested elsewhere and enjoy the look of - so i think for now i'll stick with that and factor in the above advice (though this may be incorporated down the line, changing it up keeping it fresh and all that!)

Thanks for the advice though, very much appreciated.


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## Gazhole (May 24, 2008)

Get a balance between pushing and pulling work. In that program you posted there is WAY more pushing than pulling, this is more than likely part of the problem.


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## Witchblade (May 24, 2008)

What exactly is your push/pull STRENGTH ratio? Both in your hips and your shoulders.


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## Ak_88 (May 25, 2008)

I'm a little unclear what lifts i need to calculate that Witchblade - can you expand a bit?


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## Witchblade (May 25, 2008)

Lifts that are the exact opposite of each other would be best. 

What do you lift when...
cable rowing
bench pressing
pull-ups
military press
squatting
deadlifting

Additionally, can you touch the bar with your chest (without bouncing) when doing supine rows?

These are just basic questions to see if you have any obvious muscle imbalances.


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## Ak_88 (May 25, 2008)

Witchblade said:


> Lifts that are the exact opposite of each other would be best.
> 
> What do you lift when...
> cable rowing
> ...



Thanks.

Cable row - not done recently due to gym constraints, was around 40-50kg for 8's i think. Machine row is ~50kgx8's, V-attachment row is 40kgx8

Bench - 30kgx8 DB on decline, 27.5kgx8 Incline 

Chins - Not done currently again due to gym constraints, normally BWx8's though. Lat Pulldown is around 55-60kgx8's

DB Press - 25kgx8, was seated BTN pressing 50kgx8 before it played havoc with my rotator cuff.

Squat - Back squat was ~107.5kgx8 or so, dropped that recently because of back problems, now front squatting ~60kgx8 (still getting back into this)

DL - Around 150-70kgx6

Touching my chest w/supine rows - couldn't say as i've not done them in a while.


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## Witchblade (May 25, 2008)

Your legs probably aren't the problem then. Your pushing movements are also strong, but your pulling movements are lacking. 

Push : pull (bench press: row) = 1:1 ideally

It's a very common problem. Focus on the pulling movements and stretch the muscles involved in pulling. In the end your gains will be greater than if you were to continue training with a muscle imbalance.


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## Ak_88 (May 25, 2008)

Thanks bud.

I'm upping my pulling movements, RC work and will stretch daily to see how the problem alleviates.


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## thewicked (May 26, 2008)

Witchblade said:


> Read the post about internally rotated humeri in my FAQ. I bet you have that too.



this is what i thought too.. but for some of us like me you get where your pecs are more developed than other muscle groups and can "pull" your shoulders down or forward. THis gave me the hunched look until I started religiously pulling..now i have that look from my monster erectors HAHA!

your IRH comment though is spot on and definately worth looking at.. if hes' got problems with elbows when squatting..this is another clue in to that kinda issue.


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