# What can low doses really do? .. Let's find out.



## jrock00123 (Nov 4, 2013)

*Background*: 43 yo.  189 lbs @ 14%.  10+ years training experience.  Been on TRT for 3 years -- transdermal cream for the most part, but recently switched to 100mg test-c + hcg.  Have done numerous oral cycles with my TRT dosage.  This will be my first real cycle with injections.  

*Goal*: 195 - 200 lbs with a slight reduction in body fat.

*Nutrition*: No change initially --  3,300 kcal, 390gm carb, 265gm pro, 80gm fat over six meals.  This is what I've been eating for the last three months.  I've slowly moved from 180 to 189 lb over this period.  Everything weighed and measured with 1 or 2 off menu meals per week.

*Training*: Modified 5/3/1.  I've added a fourth day using weighted chins as the main lift and do direct bicep work on this day also.  I typically do 10 sets of accessory work after the main work sets, but will likely add more volume starting today.

*Cycle*:
Weeks 1 - 9: 375mg test-c, 300mg tren-e
Weeks 1 - 2: 10mg d-bol, 4mg m-sten
Weeks 3 - 8: 25mcg bi-lateral IGF-1 DES intra-workout

Today is day 1.  Looking forward to this cycle and plan on busting my ass to get the most our of it.  I'll try to get some starting photos later today.

Any advice is welcome.


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## dieseljimmy (Nov 4, 2013)

I think this is a really good safe but effective low dose run.

I have found with igf des to be really effective you need to drink a ton of water.  Make sure to over drink pre and intra workout. Do your warm up. And right before your working sets hit the igf.  I love des.. good choice and good luck


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## oufinny (Nov 4, 2013)

I personally would run the orals 3-4 weeks at those doses, if not longer, so little to worry about with your liver or lipids at those levels. Make sure you have an AI and at a minimum BLR Prolactrone around to deal with the tren sides.  Besides that, looks good.  Any bump up should net you some great results and you may like the way that low dose of dbol makes you feel; I love it but it gives me gnarly headaches after about a week so I can't use it sadly.


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## HFO3 (Nov 4, 2013)

That looks solid, 300mgs tren is a very effective dose of tren. results will be great with proper eating, training and rest. good luck!


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## jrock00123 (Nov 4, 2013)

dieseljimmy said:


> I think this is a really good safe but effective low dose run.
> 
> I have found with igf des to be really effective you need to drink a ton of water.  Make sure to over drink pre and intra workout. Do your warm up. And right before your working sets hit the igf.  I love des.. good choice and good luck



I'm pretty good about drink water.  I really only drink water and coffee and probably get in a little over a gallon a day.  I'll definitely increase this now that the cycle has started.



oufinny said:


> I personally would run the orals 3-4 weeks at those doses, if not longer, so little to worry about with your liver or lipids at those levels. Make sure you have an AI and at a minimum BLR Prolactrone around to deal with the tren sides.  Besides that, looks good.  Any bump up should net you some great results and you may like the way that low dose of dbol makes you feel; I love it but it gives me gnarly headaches after about a week so I can't use it sadly.



Last bloodwork from a stupid TRT + oral cycle had my HDL at 5.  Scared me enough to be really careful with any orals going forward.



HFO3 said:


> That looks solid, 300mgs tren is a very effective dose of tren. results will be great with proper eating, training and rest. good luck!



Thanks bro!


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## jrock00123 (Nov 4, 2013)

Damn I'm a fat fuck!  The camera doesn't lie.  Looks like my "lean" bulk turned into a run of the mill bulk.  Anyway, one of the main goals of the cycle is get back on track.

Today I did over head pressing.  New PR = 170 lbs.  Very close on 175 but couldn't lock it out.  15 sets of accessory shoulder exercises (BTN presses, weighted dips, lateral raises).


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## Arcticman (Nov 4, 2013)

That's an awesome first cycle. I think you'll be very happy, the harder you push the better it is. I've never been a fan of orals but I'm definitely going to be trying some of IML's orals to keep levels up when I can't pin. Keep us posted.


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## jrock00123 (Nov 5, 2013)

Did squats today.  New PR = 280lb (I know this is sad).  Full range and deep.  Followed with unilateral leg presses, goblet squats, and leg extensions. Overall very good workout.  Felt great in the gym and definitely feel beat up pretty good now.

Wife made chili and corn bread for dinner, so I ate off menu.  Awesome dinner -- 200 or 300 kcal over, but I think I needed the extra calories after the intense leg workout.

Feeling good so far, no sides but it's only day 2.


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## jrock00123 (Nov 6, 2013)

Just spent an hour reconstituting 1mg of IGF-1 DES with 2ml of bac water and dividing into 40 slin pins.  All are now in the freezer and ready for week 3.  I wish they shipped the stuff in a bigger vial.  Loading 5 units at a time sucks.

Question: When should I expect to start seeing sides related to tren (night sweats, trouble sleeping)?


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## SwoleZilla (Nov 6, 2013)

ass to grass brotha! nice

lookin solid for being 43. keep it up


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## jrock00123 (Nov 6, 2013)

SwoleZilla said:


> ass to grass brotha! nice
> 
> lookin solid for being 43. keep it up



Thanks Swole!


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## independent (Nov 6, 2013)

Youre not fat brother.


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## jrock00123 (Nov 6, 2013)

bigmoe65 said:


> Youre not fat brother.



Thanks for the support bro!

Looking back I'm probably being too critical.  We all know there will be some fat gain when trying to put on size.  However, it's still tough when the abs disappear.


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## dieseljimmy (Nov 6, 2013)

jrock00123 said:


> Just spent an hour reconstituting 1mg of IGF-1 DES with 2ml of bac water and dividing into 40 slin pins.  All are now in the freezer and ready for week 3.  I wish they shipped the stuff in a bigger vial.  Loading 5 units at a time sucks.
> 
> Question: When should I expect to start seeing sides related to tren (night sweats, trouble sleeping)?



I kept mine in a potato skin box in the freezer.

Tip if you ever run igf des and ir3 at the same time get the u50 and u100 needles and seperate the peptides by rig size.  Never know when someone is going to handle your peps and mix them up


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## HFO3 (Nov 6, 2013)

I didn't know you could recon with BW, I thought AA was the only choice with igf...  in the hole with AA

BTW, you are far from fat!


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## dieseljimmy (Nov 6, 2013)

HFO3 said:


> I didn't know you could recon with BW, I thought AA was the only choice with igf...  in the hole with AA
> 
> BTW, you are far from fat!



I use aa... theres a train of thought that bw degrades igf. I dont know for certain. Aa does have a bite even when you cut it with nacl


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## HFO3 (Nov 6, 2013)

yes Jimmy I have heard that same train a few t_imes before, bro science? IDK..._

Jrock- Are you actually freezing it in the freezer? if so, why?


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## bulldogz (Nov 6, 2013)

jrock00123 said:


> Just spent an hour reconstituting 1mg of IGF-1 DES with 2ml of bac water and dividing into 40 slin pins.  All are now in the freezer and ready for week 3.  I wish they shipped the stuff in a bigger vial.  Loading 5 units at a time sucks.
> 
> Question: When should I expect to start seeing sides related to tren (night sweats, trouble sleeping)?



Night sweats, limit carb intake late at night or before bed

Insomnia, I never had it on tren but maybe try some zma...I will other chime in on this one


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## jrock00123 (Nov 7, 2013)

HFO3 said:


> yes Jimmy I have heard that same train a few t_imes before, bro science? IDK..._
> 
> Jrock- Are you actually freezing it in the freezer? if so, why?



Yes, in the freezer.  My understanding (bro-science?) is that this will keep it from degrading.  DieselJimmy mentioned this idea in another thread.


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## jrock00123 (Nov 7, 2013)

bulldogz said:


> Night sweats, limit carb intake late at night or before bed
> 
> Insomnia, I never had it on tren but maybe try some zma...I will other chime in on this one



No sides yet.  Just asking when they typically start.


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## jrock00123 (Nov 7, 2013)

Did weighted chin-ups.  Today's 1-RM (tied with last month for PR) = body weight + 95lbs.  Followed with seated row, barbell curls, and dumbbell curls.

Biceps were pumped much more than usual.  I think the d-bol had something to do with this.


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## jrock00123 (Nov 9, 2013)

New bench PR yesterday, 300lb.  Today will be deadlifts.  Nutrition and training going very well.  Just waiting for the long ester steroids to start taking effect.  Yawn.


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## jrock00123 (Nov 12, 2013)

Updated stats: 193.2lb (+4.2lb) @ 14.7% (+0.6%).

Well week one is tough to tell much.  Definitely seeing increased glycogen and water uptake, most likely from the d-bol and test.  A little too puffy this morning, so I'm going to start taking adex more consistently (0.5mg EOD).  I may cut back on carbs next week (~ 100gm) if my bf continues to rise.  I'm looking for *lean *mass on this cycle.

Deadlifts on Saturday went well.  New PR = 410lb.  No assistance exercises that day -- just lots of deads leading up to the new 1-RM.

Overhead press yesterday: 150lb x 4.  For assistance did BTN presses, lateral raises, and dips.  This was a killer workout and my shoulders were fried.


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## jrock00123 (Nov 16, 2013)

Updates for the last few days:

I'll focus on my 5/3/1 final work set and skip posting accessory work unless anyone is interested.  I've added volume and I'm now doing at least 15 sets of accessory work.

Monday, overhead press 150x4
Tuesday, squat 195x3 (knees were hurting so I did jot push beyond my 5/3/1 target)
Thursday, was out of town so I did heavy seated rows instead of weighed chins. 
Friday, bench 270x4

Approaching the end of week 2.  Weight has stayed around 193 this week.  Slight increase in strength but really just barely noticeable.  Up to this point it is probably just the low dosed orals contributing.  Very little sides -- slightly bloated, a little night sweating, but really nothing serious.  Looking forward to seeing something from the tren-e soon.


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## jrock00123 (Nov 22, 2013)

Sorry for the lack of updates.  There has been little to report until today -- but I think the tren-e is now kicking!  Serious night sweats last night and I definitely appeared leaner this morning.  I was becoming frustrated and ended up boosting the tren-e to 600mg weekly and also reduced the test-c to 250mg weekly.  Now that it is really starting to kick in I hope I don't regret the decision to bump.

To save everyone the time -- I know, I know, I should have used ace.  But I'm a big boy and will deal with the sides if necessary.

Started the IGF-1 this week.  I pinned it into my biceps intra-workout yesterday and they are still pumped today!  The pump is cool, but I'm really looking for the long-term effects from the IGF-1 (hyperplasia).  

I'll be benching tonight.  I'm really hoping to see some strength gains.


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## jrock00123 (Nov 26, 2013)

Well guys I wish I had more to report, but this cycle is kicking in sloooow!  Some minor comp changes and I'm routinely experiencing night sweats.  Strength is up very slightly, but the gains so far are not much more than what I would have achieved without tren.

Currently at the beginning of week 4.  Last week I bumped the tren-e to 600mg per week dosed mon/thr.  Also reduced test-c to 250mg per week.  So far the sides are manageable.

Monday: overhead press 175x1 -- new PR by 5lb.  But was very close to locking this out on my last attempt three weeks ago.
Today: squat (deep) 285x1 -- also new PR by 5lb.

When should I expect to start seeing the serious tren strength gains everyone talks about?  Hoping to press 185, squat 300, bench 315, and dl 450 by the end of week 8 -- is this unreasonable?

Diet is right on as outlined in the OP.  Overall energy and sleep are pretty good (besides the sweating).  Some work stress, but nothing too severe.

Edit: actually my diet is down from the op.  It's now 3,000 kcal.  The reduction is all carbs.


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## jrock00123 (Dec 1, 2013)

Today is half way point in the cycle.  Really looking forward to the second half.  I'm bumping my cardio up starting today.

Last few days have not been perfect diet-wise.  Thanksgiving, left overs, and a family restaurant dinner put me over some -- although nothing too crazy.  If I had to guess maybe an extra 2,000 kcal this weekend.

Yesterday's workout was helping a Buddy move furniture.  Although today was supposed to be an off day, I did 25 minutes of cardio this afternoon.

I'm doing a major reset on my 5/3/1 lifts.  This will result in much higher reps for the next several weeks.  This should go well with the second half if the cycle.  Long term this is also very helpful in breaking through strength plateaus.

I look a little bloated lately, but just in the belly / lower back -- no face bloat.  Then again maybe it's body fat.  Did I mention that I'm looking forward to the second half of the cycle?  So far I'm very underwhelmed by tren-e.

I'll update stats tomorrow.


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## Hightestfuel (Dec 1, 2013)

Subbed!


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## jrock00123 (Dec 2, 2013)

Updated stats: 192.8lb (+3.8lb from start) @ 14.2% (+0.1% from start).

So for the first half of this cycle I gained 3.1 lbs of lean mass and 0.7 lbs of fat.  No real strength gains thus far.

Did overhead pressing today: 5/3/1 lift 130x8.  Followed by 5x5 at 115lb.  Then four supersets of dips, lateral raises, and upright rows.

Diet remains at 3,000 kcal (320 carb, 255 pro, 75 fat).  Besides Thanksgiving and the couple of days following my diet has been spot on.


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## jrock00123 (Dec 5, 2013)

I'm beginning to think that I may be a very strange case of someone who retains water on tren.  I know this is not suppose to happen, but I did a search and there are actually a few others that this has happened to.  

A year or so ago I did a heavy cycle of a prohormone that converts to trenbolone.  At that time I was very confused by my lack of leanness after twelve weeks of intense dieting (cyclical keto), volume training, and double 45-min cardio sessions.  However, once the cycle was over (back to trt test dose) I dropped weight lack mad and got REALLY lean -- all within a few weeks of ending the cycle.  So I figured whatever was in the ph was not really tren.  After all no one retains water from real tren -- right?

I think the same thing may be happening with my tren-e cycle.  I'm starting to see some composition changes.  My arms and shoulder look bigger.  However, my stomach is a little bloated which is making it look like I've actually gained body fat.  My diet is spot on and overall calories are slightly less than where they were prior to this cycle.  There is no way I should be gaining fat -- especially on 750mg tren per week.

I'm still unsure if strength gains are kicking.  I will know for sure tomorrow when I bench.  I'm hoping the weight feel light and I'm able to push out several more reps than expected.


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## Hightestfuel (Dec 10, 2013)

How long did you run the dbol? Is that the bloat? How are the peps treating you? Most importantly is the tren kicking in yet? At that dose, it shouldn't be subtle.


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## jrock00123 (Dec 10, 2013)

Today is week 6 day 2.  Scale weight is still around 193.  As I said in the last update, for some reason I am retaining water.  This is giving the appearance of gaining body fat.  I am significantly leaner in the morning, but even then still slightly bloated.  This is not related to the d-bol as that ended four weeks ago.

I think I'm finally starting to see some strength increases.  Here are the last few workouts:

Bench: 225x13
Dead lift: 310x11
Overhead press: 120x14

Again, I typically do 12-15 sets of accessory work after my 5/3/1 main exercise.

Not expect much from the pep.  The idea is to attempt to achieve hyperplasia and down the road see growth from these new cells.


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## Animal187 (Dec 12, 2013)

Just wondering how the cardio is going? I haven't seen a lot of people post about on cycle cardio so Im wondering what kind of effects the gear is having on your cardio. Are you running for cardio? If so is it getting easier or harder?


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## jrock00123 (Dec 12, 2013)

The cardio is actually fine.  I'm only doing 20 minutes of steady state first thing in the morning.  I eat a small amount of coconut oil prior.  I switch it up between jogging (6 mph), bike, and elliptical.  My heart rate reaches 155 ppm within the first 10 minutes.  My resetting rate is currently around 95 due to this fairly strong cycle.  Bp has been pretty consistent around 135/85.

I also reduced sodium and eliminated caffeine five days ago.  Still not sure what's causing the bloating.  It's particularly bad tonight.

I'll try to take a couple of update photos next week.


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## DaPulse (Dec 13, 2013)

good log, looking forward to seeing your results.


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## jrock00123 (Dec 17, 2013)

Week 7 day 2

Still disappointed in this cycle.  I've done several pro-hormone cycles in the past with much better results.  750 mg of tren! -- WTF!!

Strength gains -- Very little.  Close to what I would have made on my TRT dose.
Recomp -- I believe there is some progress here, but I am terribly bloated so it's difficult to tell.

Still 100% committed to this cycle until the end -- 12 more days

A few changes starting this week:

Bumped calories to 3,800 kcal -- I no longer care about fat gain as I'm convinced it's just bloating.  If I'm not going to get a recomp effect I might as well try to get some size before the cycle ends.

Added probiotics, digestive enzymes, and betaine hcl.  Hoping this will help with the bloating.

Dropped test completely.  I'm still incorporating 150 mg mast-p so I think I'll get by for another week or so.

Going to finish the rest of my tren-e (bunk or not) -- bumped to 800 mg + 150 mg tren-a.  I know this is too much, but I have serious doubts this stuff is dosed correctly.  Otherwise, maybe I'm the only guy in the world that doesn't respond to tren.  I'll keep an eye on bp and drop back down if anything alarming develops.  Only 12 more days so I think I'll be ok.


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## Dannie (Dec 17, 2013)

Something is definitely wrong.
I recently to finished using (or should I say stopped due to sideffects) Muscle Factory Labs Tren Ace I have won in a comp/giveaway. I would advice you to get some and restart your cycle. I don't think they do Tren E though.
If you want Tren E,  try click on my banner. Roid+ gets good reviews.

Also not sure what is your metabolism like but I'd be loosing weight at 3000kcal,  3800 is a maintenance for me.

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2


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## Hightestfuel (Dec 17, 2013)

When you said cardio was fine is when I knew for sure your gear was bad. 20 mins of liss on tren is harder than 15 mins of HIIT off cycle for me. The good news is that you will recover fast, and can do a good tren cycle in a couple months. Sorry- I say start PCT ASAP, and kill it in February!


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## jrock00123 (Dec 18, 2013)

I've been holding off judgement until the end of the cycle.  But since there's only 11 days left I'll outline my thoughts:

At the start of my cycle I did two weeks low dose d-bol/m-sten. Both definitely legit and the results showed exactly what I would expect.

I added 150mg tren-a and 150mg mast-p at the start of week 5.  I think both of these are good.  However, the doses are low and were only meant to supplement the main cycle, not be the primary drivers.

The big issue is that the heart of this cycle revolved around tren-e.  I actually used two suppliers.  After seeing very little results from my first vial, I switched.  Both suppliers are sponsors on this board.  Both products behaved the same.  I do have some mild sides (night sweats but not too bad, elevated bp and resting heart rate, lower tolerance and easily frustrated.)

To clarify the cardio situation -- I meant it is fine relative to being on tren.  My cadio performance is far below what it is normally.  I can deal with relatively low/med intensity steady state, but not at my usual pace.  Bike and elliptical are much easier at this point than jogging.

My opinion is that the tren-e is not completely bunk, but it is severely under-dosed.  I also think this is a problem with the Chinese suppliers vs the labs.  Has anyone seen a log where someone has good results from tren-e without other compounds?  Everyone I see running it also runs orals and high doses of test.  There is no way to tell if the tren is working in these cases.  There are many threads that talk about tren-e vs tren-a and the wide majority seem to prefer acetate.

My next cycle will be late Feb.  I'm thinking about going with tren-a, mast-p, and very low dose test (100mg per week).  I'll just get over the inconvenience of pinning everyday.


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## jrock00123 (Dec 22, 2013)

Week 7, Day 6

I boosted calories fairly significantly this week.  Weight is up to 197.  I'll do a waist and bf measurement tomorrow.

Added a small dose of m-sten this week (4mg)

Bloating is still there, but may have calmed a little.  No testosterone in over a week, but I'm sure there is still some cyp floating around.  Libido is still strong.  Night sweats have pretty much gone away. 

Tested 1-RMs this week with no improvement from last check (three weeks ago)

I still plan on finishing the cycle.  Tomorrow is the beginning of week 8 -- the final week.  I put on some solid weight this week and I'm holing to continue through next week, which shouldn't be too hard with all of the holiday food.


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## Dannie (Dec 22, 2013)

If tren was legit waist and bodyfat measurements would not be necessary (unless you wanted to keep the track of the fat los that is)
Also 1RM's would improve weekly.

Especially at almost a gram of tren!

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2


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## jrock00123 (Dec 22, 2013)

I agree Dannie.  I think the ace and mast may be ok, but I'm only doing 150mg of each.  What is also telling is that very soon after adding the m-sten (even at this very low dose) my weight went up significantly.  Yes, I added about 400 or 500 kcal, but not enough to account for three pounds of new weight.  Again, this is my typical response to orals, but should not have been noticeable with such a high tren dose.

I also wonder if the tren was really some very low dosed test.  This could explain the bloating.  I'm taking adex, but dosing it as though I'm using 200mg of test.  I guess I'll never know.  Anyway I done with sponsors on this board.  Test and orals seem to be fine from just about all, but I am now VERY skeptical of tren.  Sorry if this upsets anyone -- it's just my opinion.


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