# Looking for opinions. Bulk or Cut ??



## allnaturalkid87 (Jan 7, 2011)

Hey guys,

So I have been training natural on and off for about 5 years now. 
I am trying to decide if I should cut down or bulk up right now.

My age is 23, my height is 5'11, my weight is 198lbs, and my body fat is about 15%

My goals are probably to get to around 215lbs at 10% body fat, hopefully staying all natural. 

I would love some opinions?


----------



## SFW (Jan 7, 2011)

Cut down to what? A skeleton? I suggest you start bulking.


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 7, 2011)

Mr. Fantastico said:


> Cut down to what? A skeleton? I suggest you start bulking.


 
mwahahaha!

 . .  and after giving careful consideration, weighing up all the options, and consulting with other experts . . 

 . .  highly recommend a course of Gears!


----------



## SFW (Jan 7, 2011)

+1

And a sammich or 3


----------



## allnaturalkid87 (Jan 7, 2011)

Mr. Fantastico said:


> Cut down to what? A skeleton? I suggest you start bulking.





Am I seriously that tiny ? Let me show you my legs. 




[URL=http://img819.imageshack.us/i/img0638q.jpg/]
	

[/URL]


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 7, 2011)

allnaturalkid87 said:


> Am I seriously that tiny ? Let me show you my legs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
good looking wheelz man, that must be where all your mass is. You dont need to be cutting, at all.

It's winter time in Can-a-Da yeah? Time to bulk. Eat those fucking clubbed seals and moose burgers!


----------



## allnaturalkid87 (Jan 7, 2011)

theCaptn' said:


> good looking wheelz man, that must be where all your mass is. You dont need to be cutting, at all.
> 
> It's winter time in Can-a-Da yeah? Time to bulk. Eat those fucking clubbed seals and moose burgers!



Thank you sir 

Definitely where the majority of my mass is, guess that's my genetics...

Yes, definitely cooooooold here in Canada right now eh? Hahahaha clubbed seals and moose burgers! Nothing beats a beaver burger and goose eggs in the winter with some grade A Canadian maple syrup 

New doot aboot it  eh ?

Thanks both for your input


----------



## Gazhole (Jan 7, 2011)

Definitely bulk. If you're going to cut up later anyways don't waste time cutting up now too if you're just going to throw away all that hard work and bulk some more. Get to well over 200lbs then cut, then stay that way and become a fucking unit.

Im totally the opposite to you, all my mass is in my upper body and my legs are crap. Squatting some good numbers, but they don't seem to grow on any program no matter how much i eat. Put on 30lbs and saw like half and inch growth 

Go figure. There must be a gymnast in my ancestry.


----------



## allnaturalkid87 (Jan 7, 2011)

Gazhole said:


> Definitely bulk. If you're going to cut up later anyways don't waste time cutting up now too if you're just going to throw away all that hard work and bulk some more. Get to well over 200lbs then cut, then stay that way and become a fucking unit.
> 
> Im totally the opposite to you, all my mass is in my upper body and my legs are crap. Squatting some good numbers, but they don't seem to grow on any program no matter how much i eat. Put on 30lbs and saw like half and inch growth
> 
> Go figure. There must be a gymnast in my ancestry.



Great, thank you as well for your input! I highly appreciate it !

I know what you mean Mr.Gazhole, when I put on 17 pounds of muscle in 2 years, only 1 pound of it went to my arms. 

Since I am training naturally, do you think 500 - 800 calories extra per day will suffice? 

And how much of a fan are you guys of creatine? I used to use it years ago, but always found I would lose everything when I discontinued it. 
Any thoughts on this? 

Thanks!


----------



## allnaturalkid87 (Jan 7, 2011)

Just thought I'd throw another one in here, this is from today after my chest, shoulders and triceps workout.

Biggest issue is definitely my chest. I am pressing 80's on incline, I am wondering how much higher I need to get before I start seeing some actual nice size on my chest. I feel like I gain and gain, but my chest won't get bigger. But I guess 80's aren't that much compared to most of you guys here.


----------



## OneWheyOrAnother (Jan 7, 2011)

It depends how much you worry about maintaining a lean look. If you care, do a clean bulk to minimize fat gain. If not, just BULK BULK BULK !


----------



## Gazhole (Jan 8, 2011)

allnaturalkid87 said:


> Great, thank you as well for your input! I highly appreciate it !
> 
> I know what you mean Mr.Gazhole, when I put on 17 pounds of muscle in 2 years, only 1 pound of it went to my arms.
> 
> ...



500 to start sounds fine. If in two weeks you havent gained, bump it up to 800 extra. An easy way to do this is by doing shots of olive oil or some other oil with smoothies or milk. It varies, but a tablespoon of oil equates to something like 135kCal.

Few of those in your regular shakes and you've got your extra calories already, and most people could stand to increase their unsaturated fat intake.

I dont generally take any sort of supplement past a multivitamin and something for my joints, but creatine is probably one of the few of them that has enough research to warrant taking it. Take about 5g a day, and don't bother with loading or cycling off it. Theres really no need to do either.


----------



## Retlaw (Jan 8, 2011)

allnaturalkid87 said:


> Am I seriously that tiny ? Let me show you my legs.



     lol......... couldnt resist !      Yeah bro..  nice wheels !


----------



## allnaturalkid87 (Jan 8, 2011)

Gazhole said:


> 500 to start sounds fine. If in two weeks you  havent gained, bump it up to 800 extra. An easy way to do this is by  doing shots of olive oil or some other oil with smoothies or milk. It  varies, but a tablespoon of oil equates to something like 135kCal.
> 
> Few of those in your regular shakes and you've got your extra calories  already, and most people could stand to increase their unsaturated fat  intake.
> 
> I dont generally take any sort of supplement past a multivitamin and  something for my joints, but creatine is probably one of the few of them  that has enough research to warrant taking it. Take about 5g a day, and  don't bother with loading or cycling off it. Theres really no need to  do either.



I look forward to becoming Gazhole Jr.  Thanks for the great advice!



Retlaw said:


> lol......... couldnt resist !      Yeah bro..  nice wheels !



LOL ! Not sure if I should be creeped out or humbled by your compliment. 
But thanks either way


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 8, 2011)

allnaturalkid87 said:


> LOL ! Not sure if I should be creeped out or humbled by your compliment.
> But thanks either way


 
 . . be creeped out


----------



## Merkaba (Jan 8, 2011)

Nice stumps.  Gimme-um!


----------



## Gissurjon (Jan 9, 2011)

gosh this guy is like a reversed popeye. those are big legs though, no homo


----------



## stepaukas (Jan 9, 2011)

this is a crazy post. you're not sure if you want to gain weight or loose weight??

for what??

if all replies were for you to cut and loose weight, what would your lighter bodyweight be for?

and if everyone that replied said gain weight and bulk up, what would the heavier bodyweight be for?

curious


----------



## allnaturalkid87 (Jan 9, 2011)

stepaukas said:


> this is a crazy post. you're not sure if you want to gain weight or loose weight??
> 
> for what??
> 
> ...



I'm trying to become around 215lbs at around 10% body fat. Right now I am about 198lbs at 15% body fat. So I was wondering if I should cut down to 10% and then go on another bulk, or if I should just bulk it and cut down after.


----------



## allnaturalkid87 (Jan 9, 2011)

Can I get your guys' expert opinions on some of my lifts. I want to make sure my form is proper. I accept all criticism and advice.

Me Squatting
Leg Press
Rack Deadlift
Barbell Row


----------



## big60235 (Jan 9, 2011)

allnaturalkid87 said:


> Nothing beats a beaver burger


 

I think this entire group was thrown off by your killer wheels and no one caught the beaver burger comment.

I am in 100% agreement with beaver. I can't get enough beaver myself even if I have to club her, I mean it.


----------



## nova1970sb (Jan 9, 2011)

bad ass legs dude, i would bulk if i were you just because of your upper body. you arent fat by any means so i would worry about cutting yet. eat eat and eat and keep up the good work man.


----------



## nova1970sb (Jan 9, 2011)

allnaturalkid87 said:


> Can I get your guys' expert opinions on some of my lifts. I want to make sure my form is proper. I accept all criticism and advice.
> 
> Me Squatting
> Leg Press
> ...



your form looks good to me on all those (dont really see how you can have bad form on leg press though). do you have a bad back? is that why you are doing half racked deadlifts? and with rows, i wouldnt drop them back to the safety bars just because i would rather have a full stretch of the muscle worked. so i would lighten up on the rows and do them outside of the rack. just my opinion though, only means jack to me!


----------



## allnaturalkid87 (Jan 9, 2011)

big60235 said:


> I think this entire group was thrown off by your  killer wheels and no one caught the beaver burger comment.
> 
> I am in 100% agreement with beaver. I can't get enough beaver myself even if I have to club her, I mean it.



Hahahahaha!!! Yummmmmmmmmmmm !!!! I can't keep my hands off of her, errrr um it.



nova1970sb said:


> bad ass legs dude, i would bulk if i were you  just because of your upper body. you arent fat by any means so i would  worry about cutting yet. eat eat and eat and keep up the good work  man.



Thanks for the kind words nova, the reason I believe my legs are what they are, is because at age 18 I weighed around 300 pounds, at about 50% body fat and I think my legs adapted to carrying my fat ass around, so even though I cut down and lost some size and strength in my legs, the muscle memory will always be with me 



nova1970sb said:


> your form looks good to me on all those (dont really see how you can have bad form on leg press though). do you have a bad back? is that why you are doing half racked deadlifts? and with rows, i wouldnt drop them back to the safety bars just because i would rather have a full stretch of the muscle worked. so i would lighten up on the rows and do them outside of the rack. just my opinion though, only means jack to me!



Right, I just wanted to make sure I was coming back DEEP enough on my leg press. My back is a hit or miss. Some days it bothers me, some days it does not. My last back day, my lower back was giving me some issues so I decided to do rack lifts instead. I expect to do full range reps next work out. So instead of placing the Barbell on the rack for the rows, would you just continue to hold it? I always figured racking it for a second was the best way to do the exercise, maybe I was misinformed.

Thanks all again for your great contributions to helping make me a better amateur bodybuilder


----------



## nova1970sb (Jan 10, 2011)

i would let my arms go down as far as they can go, so you get full stretch of the muscle. but again thats just me.


----------



## ectomorph141 (Jan 10, 2011)

I didnt expect to see legs like that after the upper body pics.  Its clearly where all the weight is at. I would also say bulk but I sure as heck didnt expect to see such huge legs.  For most people its the other way around.  Big upper body and stick legs. Honestly I would have never matched those legs with that upper body.   lol.   No offense. Oh and congrats on your weight loss from 300lbs to 198.   
I do kinda feel bad telling him to bulk after he already lost 100lbs.


----------



## awhites1 (Jan 11, 2011)

how are you when you dont work out? do you get chubby or resort to bean pole or somewhere between? seems that we're all agreeing on bulk, you look like a real ectomorph but you weigh a lot for your height and dont look very bulky. just try increasing calories by a few hundred. you want lean mass, not lean mass and huge amounts of fat with it like me   if you can gain mass and stay lean that is def the best course to take


----------



## ectomorph141 (Jan 11, 2011)

awhites1 said:


> how are you when you dont work out? do you get chubby or resort to bean pole or somewhere between? seems that we're all agreeing on bulk, you look like a real ectomorph but you weigh a lot for your height and dont look very bulky. just try increasing calories by a few hundred. you want lean mass, not lean mass and huge amounts of fat with it like me   if you can gain mass and stay lean that is def the best course to take


He confirmed in post#24 that he used to be 18years old 300lbs, 50%bf, and is now down to 198lbs.  So I am guessing if he doesnt workout or eat properly, he will start getting fat again.


----------



## allnaturalkid87 (Jan 11, 2011)

ectomorph141 said:


> He confirmed in post#24 that he used to be 18years old 300lbs, 50%bf, and is now down to 198lbs.  So I am guessing if he doesnt workout or eat properly, he will start getting fat again.



Correct. When I stop working out, I become a skinny-fat.


----------



## awhites1 (Jan 11, 2011)

ectomorph141 said:


> He confirmed in post#24 that he used to be 18years old 300lbs, 50%bf, and is now down to 198lbs.  So I am guessing if he doesnt workout or eat properly, he will start getting fat again.



my bad. didn't see them all



allnaturalkid87 said:


> Correct. When I stop working out, I become a skinny-fat.



yeah. dude dont do AAS then. just eat clean. sounds like you know what a pain in the ass it can be to lose weight. its easy to get carried away bulking. just eat a little more and powerlift


----------



## Mindgame516 (Jan 11, 2011)

I wouldent use the term bulk, Because when that comes to mind to me it means put on weight a little quiker then usual which will be more of a chance of loss of some definition.... IMO i would def want to increase my calories slowly up the protein, train around 6-8 reps with high volume low intensity and when do drop sets at the end of each muscle group


----------



## allnaturalkid87 (Jan 11, 2011)

awhites1 said:


> yeah. dude dont do AAS then. just eat clean. sounds like you know what a pain in the ass it can be to lose weight. its easy to get carried away bulking. just eat a little more and powerlift



I have a really hard time losing fat. I'm hoping as I increase my LBM, fat loss will become easier. Funny thing for me is, I am increasing my LBM, but every time I think my legs can't get any bigger they keep growing twice as fast as every other body part of mine. My friends always joke and call me "horse legs."

I have tried many variations of training for adding size, strength, endurance, etc... and when I find something that works, I get happy and stick with it. But no matter what I have found, nothing on my upper body compares to the progress I make on my lower body.

I'm not complaining or anything, because I love the feeling I get from a legs day. But it would be nice to have big arms, big chest, big shoulders as well. But I am probably going to wait until at least 25 - 26 years old before I try any AAS. I have been doing research on them since age 21, and I know quite a bit about AAS, including PCT, ancillaries, blast/cruise, blood work, etc... 

The only way I will bulk is clean bulking, because fat loss is an absolute nightmare for me. I will keep you all updated on my progress


----------



## urfitness (Jan 11, 2011)

Bulking is what you should go for now, cutting before the summer.


----------



## Mindgame516 (Jan 13, 2011)

Awsome me and you are the same paragraph in the bible lol.... Yea the way you just said you wanna bulk would be best. Have you ever done dropsets when power lifting?


----------



## stfuandliftbtch (Jan 13, 2011)

allnaturalkid87 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So I have been training natural on and off for about 5 years now.
> I am trying to decide if I should cut down or bulk up right now.
> ...




If your goal 215lbs and 10% bodyfat, and you are shy of about 25-30 lbs of muscle until you accomplish that goal, what sense would it make cutting?

In no way would cutting put you any closer to your goal... 


btw, if this pic is recent, you do not look 198... more like 180ish


----------



## Built (Jan 13, 2011)

stfuandliftbtch said:


> If your goal 215lbs and 10% bodyfat, and you are shy of about 25-30 lbs of muscle until you accomplish that goal, what sense would it make cutting?
> 
> In no way would cutting put you any closer to your goal...


Hold up there - that's not necessarily true. allnaturalkid87 has a hard time dropping fat, plus he's currently 15% bodyfat - probably the top end of bodyfat most guys would want to see on a bulk. See, the fatter you get, the more insulin-resistant you become. This inhibits muscle-gains, and promotes fat-gains. Short story long - the fatter you are while gaining, the fatter you get while bulking.  

The tricky part of course is that if you diet down, then switch to bulking, you'll also tend to pack on fat. 

A reasonable strategy is to kinda "ride the wave" - aim to keep bodyfat at or near 12% - 15-16% while gaining. When you start to notice bodyfat levels getting slightly out of control - pull back, drop a few pounds, let your body recompose a bit, then gradually creep up the calories while watching the iron getting heavier on the bar. 

It's a slow way to gain, but there are fewer wardrobe changes. 


stfuandliftbtch said:


> btw, if this pic is recent, you do not look 198... more like 180ish



Here's the other thing - allnaturalkid87 says why, below - the man has wheels:



allnaturalkid87 said:


> I have a really hard time losing fat. I'm  hoping as I increase my LBM, fat loss will become easier. Funny thing  for me is, I am increasing my LBM, but* every time I think my legs can't  get any bigger they keep growing twice as fast as every other body part  of mine. My friends always joke and call me "horse legs."
> *
> I have tried many variations of training for adding size, strength,  endurance, etc... and when I find something that works, I get happy and  stick with it. But no matter what I have found, nothing on my upper body  compares to the progress I make on my lower body.
> 
> ...



allnatural, I'm like you a bit - I gain muscle well, but I gain fat REALLY well and there's hell to pay when I need to cut. I can help you with that part - and I respect the hell out of you for wanting to wait until you're ready to use AAS, and for having horse-legs. 

Now, let's get you on track for this. Here's my suggestion to you now: drop a little bit of fat, slowly, until you're down to about 12% bodyfat - which should happen at about 190 - 192 lbs. Once you get there, gradually increase your calories - just an extra 200 calories a day for a week, then add another 200 a day the next week until you start gaining again - then back it off by 200 calories and HOLD it there for no more than a month. Ramp up your training and you'll find your body hardening up and your appetite increasing. When this happens, ramp the daily calories up 200 for a week, then another 200 for another week, then hold it there for a few weeks. 

Do you know your current macronutrient mix and calories?


----------



## rockhardly (Jan 14, 2011)

How do you know your 15% BF?  I would say closer to 10%.


----------



## Built (Jan 14, 2011)

He's not 10%, but I agree he's not 15% - maybe 12% or 13%.


----------



## allnaturalkid87 (Jan 14, 2011)

Built said:


> Hold up there - that's not necessarily true. allnaturalkid87 has a hard time dropping fat, plus he's currently 15% bodyfat - probably the top end of bodyfat most guys would want to see on a bulk. See, the fatter you get, the more insulin-resistant you become. This inhibits muscle-gains, and promotes fat-gains. Short story long - the fatter you are while gaining, the fatter you get while bulking.
> 
> The tricky part of course is that if you diet down, then switch to bulking, you'll also tend to pack on fat.
> 
> ...



Wow, this is a great post from a great moderator !

I won't even address the other posts because Built hit all the nails right on the head. Other than, I know my body fat is 15% because I had it done using DXA Body Comp Scan which is probably the most accurate method of measuring body fat. It's just very evenly distributed, so it doesn't look like I am as high as I am. Even the guy who measured my body fat was shocked when it came out like it did.

I will try your recommendation out for calorie cycling like that. My body like to fight me tooth and nail for everything that I do. When I cut down, it likes to drop fat and muscle easily unless done quite slowly. When I bulk, it has to be done again slowly otherwise I can pack on 5lbs a week of fat.

I know I don't look 198lbs, but again, look at my legs in comparison with my upper body. 5 different scales can't all be lying to me. 

My current macronutrient mix and calories are on kind of a carb/calorie cycle. 1800 calories 40-P/40/-F/20-C on off days, 4 times per week. 2500 calories at 40-P/20-F/40-C, 3 times per week. I found my BMR to be 2000 calories without exercise. I only work out 3 times per week, I find any more than that and my gains tends to struggle.

Hope I didn't miss anything, if I did, please let me know 

Thanks so much Built! You are my hero


----------



## Built (Jan 14, 2011)

You and I have the male and female equivalents of the same body - my legs were ALWAYS big (although I still derive sick pleasure from making them BIGGER, lol!) but the upper, I had to make on purpose. 

I too have had DXAs done, and it's fascinating, isn't it? What was your upper body % fat, and what was the lower? Mine was very disproportionate (more fat on the bottom, very little on top but then, I'm female), and I've had it checked many times.


Can I ask you how many grams pro, cho and fat you're consuming on these percentages? I try to get people away from percentages whenever possible. What are your current average calories and your maintenance calories, and are you currently cutting, bulking or maintaining?

Also, what time do you eat, what do you eat at these times, and when do you train? 

Have you ever been fat? Are either of your parents fat?

When are you hungriest - AM or PM?

Do you feel hungry when you eat a lot of carbs, or do they keep you full for a long time?


----------



## Built (Jan 14, 2011)

PS you most certainly do look like 198 lbs. The guys who have no legs look bigger than they are - until they drop their drawers!


----------



## BigBlackGuy (Jan 15, 2011)

rockhardly said:


> How do you know your 15% BF?  I would say closer to 10%.



It's harder to tell with the looseish skin.  The man has some big legs though.


----------



## T H E O R E M (Jan 16, 2011)

bulk for sure bro


----------



## allnaturalkid87 (Jan 21, 2011)

Built said:


> You and I have the male and female equivalents of the same body - my legs were ALWAYS big (although I still derive sick pleasure from making them BIGGER, lol!) but the upper, I had to make on purpose.
> 
> I too have had DXAs done, and it's fascinating, isn't it? What was your upper body % fat, and what was the lower? Mine was very disproportionate (more fat on the bottom, very little on top but then, I'm female), and I've had it checked many times.
> 
> ...



my fat was proportioned evenly throughout the body. Although it doesn't feel like it sometimes. I am currently doing a body recomp in which I cycle calories. I am hungriest around lunch time. I train in the evening around 8:00pm, I used to be obese. My parents are both overweight. Carbs fill me up but make me crave more food. Protein mixed with fat keeps me full the longest. 

Too lazy to type up my diet haha, but I track my calories daily. I know I am moving in the right direction, sometimes I wish it was faster, but I am progressing nicely so I'm just going to stick with it.

Here is a video of me squatting today.

YouTube - Squatting 255 x 6 reps


----------



## gtbmed (Jan 21, 2011)

Funny - your depth with 255 was much better than your depth with 245.  I was going to make a comment about it but after watching that video I have to say good job.


----------



## allnaturalkid87 (Jun 16, 2011)

YouTube - ‪Squatting 285 x 6 reps‬‏

Update: Squatting 285 x 6 reps. Looking for opinions.


----------



## Dedication (Jun 16, 2011)

bulk all the way! If you want to stay natural just go for high protein and high carbs, duh, but use products like need2slin to help with the carb shuffling. Stuff like bridge also helped a lot of people gain a good amount of weight. There is a lot sub sterone and blue gene


----------



## allnaturalkid87 (Jun 17, 2011)

allnaturalkid87 said:


> YouTube - Squatting 285 x 6 reps
> 
> Update: Squatting 285 x 6 reps. Looking for opinions.



Opinions??


----------



## LAM (Jun 18, 2011)

you want to cut once body fat gets to high.  the level of body fat is a direct indicator of the bodies current ability to metabolize and utilize nutrients efficiently.  as insulin sensitivity decreases in the muscles cells more nutrients get stored in fat cells as they do not become resistance to the effects of insulin.  so basically the higher the body fat the less muscle will be gained on a bulking diet.


----------



## theanvil@live.ca (Jun 20, 2011)

Good thread!


----------

