# Is Ephedra Really Dangerous even if it's taken in recommended dosages?



## Testosterone (Mar 23, 2004)

For a newbie, to use Ephedra or not - is a very tough decision for any coach or trainer. Is Ephedra that dangerous even if it's taken in recommended dosages (As recommended by product vendor)?
What sort of pre-existing medical condition of any individial in particular should we take care of if he'she has to start taking Ephedra? Is there any age limit regarding the use of Ephedra? Can older individuals (Above age 50) use Ephedra without any side effects?


----------



## Monolith (Mar 23, 2004)

Ephedra is fine as long as youre careful with your dosing.  Take whats recommended (with caffeine) to begin with.  Slowly increase the dose if needed.  Everyone responds to differently to different amounts.

As for people over 50 using it, i dont see any problems.  Just like for people under 50 i wouldnt take ephedra if you have any sort of heart/cardiovascular problems (high blood pressure, heart palpatations, etc).  You could always throw some aspirin in with the ephedra/caffeine if it worries you (the aspirin will thin your blood).

That said, you could avoid all ephedrines side effects, get the same "buzz", _and_ get some mild nootropic effects with this stuff.


----------



## Power Rabbit (Mar 23, 2004)

run it like you would run any other stimulant gear...start at a very low dose...look for sides...up the dosage....... repeat...


----------



## Arnold (Mar 23, 2004)

is ephedra dangerous? 

yeah, if you have a heart condition.

otherwise no it's not.


----------



## Testosterone (Mar 23, 2004)

But whats the barometer of a heart condition?

-High LDL?
-Low HDL?
-Higher than normal Triglycerides levels?

Or nothing of above but heredity heart condition?

Or you want to say that it's is advisable to go series of blood tests to find out if you really have any heart condition or not BEFORE YOU TAKE EPHEDRA.



> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> is ephedra dangerous?
> 
> yeah, if you have a heart condition.
> ...


----------



## Arnold (Mar 23, 2004)

I am not a doctor, so I would not even attempt to give an answer on that.


----------



## HoldDaMayo (Mar 23, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I am not a doctor, so I would not even attempt to give an answer on that.



Ripped and smart... breakin' the stereotypes


----------



## plouffe (Mar 24, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> is ephedra dangerous?
> 
> yeah, if you have a heart condition.
> ...




Even if you don't have a heart condition.. If you abuse the shit, and take it for long periods at a time - at high doses it can cause problems. But if you are smart about it, and take it responsibly you'll be alright.


----------



## Arnold (Mar 24, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by plouffe *_
> Even if you don't have a heart condition.. If you abuse the shit, and take it for long periods at a time - at high doses it can cause problems. But if you are smart about it, and take it responsibly you'll be alright.



you could say that with anything, I did not think that was relevant to the question.

from a general stand point using ephedra as directed by someone that does not have a heart condition, it's safe.


----------



## brodus (Mar 24, 2004)

I think the advice here is excellent, start small, go slow, watch for sides, repeat.  Use for no more than 8 weeks at a time before cycling.   I don't take this stuff right before exercise, and I usually take it after eating, not before.  This helps minimize jitteriness and other sides.

Another way to test it is try it without exercise a few times first, to see how you react. If it makes your heart race, you don't want to find that out while you're on the treadmill.

While I think ephedra's harm has been grossly overstated, you certainly want to be conservative with it.  The point about age is valid, b/c your max heart rate generally declines with age, as does your aerobic capacity.  The reason doctors make such a big deal about "undiagnosed heart condition," is b/c many times such a condition is asymptomatic, and is only revealed following an incident.  People generally don't push themselves to the upper reaches of CV capacity, when problems are more apparent.  

If you're worried, go to your doctor and get a stress test.  Basically a doctor hooks you up to a series of probes and has you run on a treadmill to exhaustion and then they look at the results.  If you have a problem, it will usually reveal itself there.


----------



## mousie (Mar 24, 2004)

Does anyone in your family have a heart condition?  If they do, then you most likely do as well.  If you are worried about whether or not you have one, you better get checked out by your doctor.

In addition, like others have said, everyone reacts differently with dosages of ephedra.  What you need to do is find out what you can handle - do not go overboard.  If you do for an extended amount of time, you'll just be adding to the people who caused ephedra to be banned.  And just remember to cycle ephedra every 4 weeks.


----------



## Deeznuts (Mar 24, 2004)

I have a line of heart problems in my family, but I still take the stuff. The only time it's ever made me feel bad is when I took way above the recommended dosage. I was younger then and that was stupid as hell. It's people doing stupid shit like that, that got the product banned. Take it as recommended on the back of the bottle - you'll be fine and will experience all the positive side effects that come from this product.


----------



## plouffe (Mar 24, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> you could say that with anything, I did not think that was relevant to the question.
> 
> from a general stand point using ephedra as directed by someone that does not have a heart condition, it's safe.




As directed. Yeah, I thought he ment in anyway, like abusing the stuff.


----------



## bandaidwoman (Mar 24, 2004)

Rememember, the highly publicised deaths surrounding the Orioles pitcher Bechler and the minnesota lineman Korey Stringer, were not cardiac related, so much, as heat stroke related.   Ephedra, especially in combination with caffeine, impairs the natural thermoregulation of the body during elevations in core body temperatures.  Bechler did have some underlying hypertension but the autopsy felt this was not the underlying cause of his death.   (He had multiorgan failure that usually happens with heat stroke ie:rhabdomyolysis, renal failure, etc.))  I have always felt that ephedra alone is not dangerous in this regards so much as its  combination with caffeine....that is when most of the case reports of heat stroke related adverse events seem to happen.


----------



## Monolith (Mar 24, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> Rememember, the highly publicised deaths surrounding the Orioles pitcher Bechler and the minnesota lineman Korey Stringer, were not cardiac related, so much, as heat stroke related.   Ephedra, especially in combination with caffeine, impairs the natural thermoregulation of the body during elevations in core body temperatures.  Bechler did have some underlying hypertension but the autopsy felt this was not the underlying cause of his death.   (He had multiorgan failure that usually happens with heat stroke ie:rhabdomyolysis, renal failure, etc.))  I have always felt that ephedra alone is not dangerous in this regards so much as its  combination with caffeine....that is when most of the case reports of heat stroke related adverse events seem to happen.



So would it be correct to say that all he had to do was drink a lot more water, and he wouldn't have died?


----------



## bandaidwoman (Mar 24, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Monolith *_
> So would it be correct to say that all he had to do was drink a lot more water, and he wouldn't have died?




Perhaps, hydration is one of the most important factors behind prevention of heat stroke.  The three most important variables  affecting an individual's risk of heat stroke is dehydration, age (age affects changes in  hyopthalamic thermoregulation  and thirst sensation which is why the old folks are the first to die in any heat waves ), and drugs.  

The autopsy on belcher showed liver disease.   I suspect some chronic alcohol liver damage and those who like to imbibe here and there stay chronically dehydrated (due to alcohol's action on antidiuretic hormone) and that probably may have  rendered him more dehydrated  on that particular day.......not saying he is an alcoholic or anyting.... just speculating......


----------



## Testosterone (Mar 25, 2004)

I  guess I got my answer. Thanks bandaidwoman.
You're optimistic.
Doctors always tend to be pessimistic about Ephedra Use.


----------



## Fitgirl70 (Mar 25, 2004)

My letter to Senator McCain regarding the subject of Ephedra banning:

Dear Senator McCain;
I am emailing you today on the subject of supplements and specifically, ephedra banning.

While I agree that this diet aid has been abused and publicized in recent media because of the death of Baltimore Orioles baseball player, Steve Bechler; I do not agree that banning it will make our problems "go away".  I think too many times, our government's view on "benefiting" issues, is simply to ban it.  
If you are serious about taking a stand where herbs and supplementation are concerned, perhaps you should ask those of us, myself included, what our views are on the issue.  Personally, I have taken the diet aid, before it was pulled off of the market, and had no trouble with it.  I believe the abuse of such substances come from those who do not understand it purposes and use it incorrectly, (i.e., wearing 4 layers of clothing, not eating for 3 days straight, not hydrating themselves properly and working out or practicing in their respective sport for hours on end in elevated temperatures).  
What action do you plan to take where illegal steroids are concerned?  What action do you plan to take upon those whom overeat at McDonald's and Braum's and then bring lawsuits against those establishments for their obesity?  Whatever happened to the word "choice"?  The National Institutes of Health call obesity an epidemic.  Webster's defines "epidemic" as: spreading rapidly and extensively by infection.  I was unaware that obesity was an epidemic.
Lastly, please let me quote to you a paragraph from the April 2004 issue of FLEX magazine.  "As the country's health-care system is ravaged by obesity-related disease and American employers face dramatic losses in productivity from dangerously overweight workers, the federal government declares war on the fitness industry.  Where's the logic in that"?


----------



## Jodi (Mar 25, 2004)

Remember everyone, Ephedrine hcl is not banned.  

I like to take 4-5 small doeses of ephedrine and caffeine a day instead of 2-3 full doses.


----------



## mousie (Mar 25, 2004)

What is ephedrine hcl?


----------



## Fitgirl70 (Mar 25, 2004)

Ephedrine HCL (Hydrochloride) is used as a bronchodilator (for asthma) to open air passages for easier breathing. Helps conditions of shortness of breath, tightness of chest and wheezing. 

Side effects are: Increased energy, appetite suppression, increased fat burning, and preservation of muscle tissue from breaking down


----------



## gr81 (Mar 25, 2004)

Lets now forget that the Orioles Pitcher also has had a history of heat stroke as well, long before his fatal incident recently. Its his fault he died, NOT the supps.


----------



## plouffe (Mar 25, 2004)

Ephedrine HCL and Ephedrine aren't close enough in my opinion.


----------



## mikeb (Mar 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Testosterone *_
> For a newbie, to use Ephedra or not - is a very tough decision for any coach or trainer. Is Ephedra that dangerous even if it's taken in recommended dosages (As recommended by product vendor)?
> What sort of pre-existing medical condition of any individial in particular should we take care of if he'she has to start taking Ephedra? Is there any age limit regarding the use of Ephedra? Can older individuals (Above age 50) use Ephedra without any side effects?



All moot questions at this point since you'll be hard pressed to find any ephedra products in the coming weeks.  However,  ephedra has been used safely by many people.  That's not to say that some people have lower tolerances or should avoid it altogether.  Most people here have mentioned heart ailments which is true but more dangerous (IMO) would be any family history of strokes or brain "bleeds", aneurysms etc.

My main concern re: ephedra, especially as a retailer is the use of it by young people who feel some need to get "jacked" for their workout.  If you need ephedra to get into the gym and get a great workout, you need to reevaluate things.

Mike


----------



## brodus (Mar 26, 2004)

> Ephedrine HCL and Ephedrine aren't close enough in my opinion.



How so, Plouffe?  

And have you ever tried pure Ephedrine HCL w/o guifenesin?


----------



## plouffe (Mar 26, 2004)

Yes I have. I've used BronkAid. If you were to take 50mg of ephedrine, and 50mg of ephedrine HCL - The pure ephedrine would have more kick. No questions asked.


----------



## brodus (Mar 26, 2004)

> BronkAid. If you were to take 50mg of ephedrine, and 50mg of ephedrine HCL - The pure ephedrine would have more kick.



I think there is some confusion here.  By pure ephedrine, do you mean pure EPHEDRA? Because you can only get ephedrine, the chemcial, in a salt (HCL) or sulphate.   I'm confused, b/c Ephedrine HCL or Ephedrine Sulphate IS pure ephedrine.  The Vasopro stuff is not, and neither is BronkAid.


----------



## plouffe (Mar 26, 2004)

Ephedrine - Like Mini-thins. Ephedrine HCL does not kick like the ephedrine used in sports supplements.


----------



## brodus (Mar 26, 2004)

> Ephedrine - Like Mini-thins.


Mini-thins have guafenesin in them.  Where do you get you're pure ephedrine?  



> like the ephedrine used in sports supplements.


Can you provive a link for a sports supplement with pure ephedrine? 

To the best of my knowledge, they all contain ephedra and a ton of other ingredients. EPHEDRA is not pure ephedrine, not even close (usually only 8%).


----------



## greekblondechic (Mar 26, 2004)

Maybe the mini thins had something else in them... caffiene perhaps? who knows!


----------



## Monolith (Mar 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by plouffe *_
> Yes I have. I've used BronkAid. If you were to take 50mg of ephedrine, and 50mg of ephedrine HCL - The pure ephedrine would have more kick. No questions asked.



Unless theres more than one kind of BronkAid, it's just ephedrine sulfate w/ guaifenesin...


----------



## brodus (Mar 26, 2004)

There isn't more than one kind of BronkAid, and Pl. was probably 9 or 10 when straight ephedrine mini-thins were recalled, so I'm very curious as to where he gets pure Ephedrine HCL and which sports supplements have pure Ephedrine in them, and not ephedra.


----------



## Stretch (Mar 27, 2004)

It seems clear what Ephedrine and Ephedra are, but what are Ephedrine Alkaloids?  (Stacker 2 ingredient)


----------



## bandaidwoman (Mar 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Stretch *_
> It seems clear what Ephedrine and Ephedra are, but what are Ephedrine Alkaloids?  (Stacker 2 ingredient)



From a chemist's standpoint, ephedrine is the sympathomimetic drug that occurs naturally in plants of the genus Ephedra.  

Ephedrine alkaloid is really the collective class  (sometimes collectively referred to as ??????ephedra?????? which is how the supplement industy uses it) which then includes ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, norephedrine, methylephedrine, norpseudoephedrine, and methylpseudoephedrine.


The total ephedrine alkaloid content of the herb or plant is approximately 1???2%, with ephedrine being the most abundant alkaloid  .Then, ephedrine and pseudoephedrine together generally constitute more than 80% of the alkaloid content of the dried herb.


In dietary supplements, the ephedrine alkaloid content is typically expressed as a standardized percentage of total herb content.

Hope that helps.


----------



## mousie (Mar 28, 2004)

*Re: Re: Is Ephedra Really Dangerous even if it's taken in recommended dosages?*



> _*Originally posted by mikeb *_
> ...young people who feel some need to get "jacked" for their workout.  If you need ephedra to get into the gym and get a great workout, you need to reevaluate things.
> 
> Mike



I personally need an extra umph sometimes to get into the gym.  It's not because I'm in it for the wrong reasons...it's just that I'm along with the thousands of overweight Americans that need a little help.  However, in my situation, I know the limits of ephedra.  That's the problem - people need to be educated about these things.

Anyway, people need a little help with things sometimes.  For instance, I love it when my boyfriend motivates me - that gets me going in my down times.

It's like when you've been with your significant other for a LONG time, and the passion level in the bedroom goes down.  So what you end up doing is "adding things" to give you guys a little boost!


----------

