# My sad deadlift diatribe



## Zin (Apr 11, 2006)

Well, I was just reading some posts while sitting in my chair and had another twinge of pain in my lower back again so I thought I would share my story in the hopes that others can avoid my situation.  I have had constant back pain for the past 4 months now...all due to a stupid f...ing deadlift mistake.  

I used to think that perfect form every time = no injuries.  Boy was I wrong!  I now realize how stupid and naive I really was. lol.  I had done deadlifts with perfect form for about 2 years and was up to doing 6 reps with 315 easily for 3 sets.  Well, it was just another back day when BAM ... my back gave out for no reason that I can tell whatsoever, keeping in mind that I maintained perfect form at all times.

I went to the doctor after a few weeks and had an x-ray and MRI done simply to confirm my worst nightmares, smashed disks in my lower back.  Here I sit in pain 4 months later with the knowledge that I will live with this pain for the rest of my life and possibly require surgery in the future, Not to mention that any sort of back excercise is completely out of the question now. (Its even questionable for me to do light squats now).  The doctor also told me that in his personal opinion, any type of deadlifts should be completely out of the question for any responsible athelete.

So, sorry for the book but I just felt that everyone should be aware that there are freak accidents out there when it comes to deadlifts and everone should take a good hard period of reflection when it comes to the benefits of deadlifts...I still am of the mind that they are one of the best back and core excercises out there but damn I would have never touched them had I known this would happen.  Im not saying light deadlifts are out of the question but the idea of placing hundreds of pounds on nothing but my lower back and the muscles that surround it makes me sick to the stomach.

Cheers
-Zin


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## BigDyl (Apr 11, 2006)

True Story, and this is why you should never do deadlifts.


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## topolo (Apr 11, 2006)

I agree.........they scare me.


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## StrongBlade (Apr 11, 2006)

I bet you quite a bit of money that your abdominals were not up to par. A strong stomache means a strong back, and endless repetitions are not the answer to a strong stomach.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 11, 2006)

*Listen Up!!!!*

* PLEASE LISTEN UP!!!*

*Robert Dimaggio and I have been trying to convince everyone that deadlifts should be avoided unless your a competitive powerlifter. Why??? Because guys like Robert and I have been involved in the Iron lifting game for many years and have come to realize deadlifts simply aren't worth the trauma they bring forth to the back. I used to be a big advocate of the deadlift but not after my education with that exercise. I am close friends with two orthopedic surgeons and both perform multiple LOWER BACK surgeries each year because of "DEADLIFTS".  This exercise can cause spinal disk to blow and leave you CRIPPLED even when done with proper form.. I don't what else to say???  *


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## IRON MAN (Apr 11, 2006)

StrongBlade said:
			
		

> I bet you quite a bit of money that your abdominals were not up to par. A strong stomache means a strong back, and endless repetitions are not the answer to a strong stomach.



Not true!!!


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## fufu (Apr 11, 2006)

There is a risk with everything. I had hurt my back during deadlifts but was only out for a week thankfully. I thought I had good form, in fact the day I hurt my back I was really concentrating on form. I've since fixed it. The best way to know if you have good form is to get some who knows their shit on deadlifts get a profile view of you while you pull.

Sorry to hear about your injury.

I don't know about the doctor though, I feel he made a very generalized and ignorant statements saying that "any type of deadlifts should be completely out of the question for any responsible athelete".


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## PreMier (Apr 11, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> * PLEASE LISTEN UP!!!*
> 
> *Robert Dimaggio and I have been trying to convince everyone that deadlifts should be avoided unless your a competitive powerlifter. Why??? Because Robert and I have been involved in the Iron lifting game for many years and we have realized deadlifts simply aren't worth the tauma they cause to the back. I used to be a big advocate of the deadlift but not after my education with that exercise. I am close friends with two orthopedic surgeons and both perform multiple LOWER BACK surgeries each year because of "DEADLIFTS".  This exercise can cause spinal disk to blow and leave you CRIPPLED. I don't anymore to say???  *




Your a cheesedick


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## PreMier (Apr 11, 2006)

Just because you and Robert dont have the genetic build to lift heavy, or to be deadlifting and its caused you to have problems doesnt mean the exercise is useless to everyone.  Thats like me saying "Dont do ass to grass squats!  Because this buddy of mine has knee problems because of it, and me as well" (yea yea even though a full ROM is better than not, and ATG is a great exercise, you can catch my drift)


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## maxpro2 (Apr 11, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> * PLEASE LISTEN UP!!!*
> 
> *Robert Dimaggio and I have been trying to convince everyone that deadlifts should be avoided unless your a competitive powerlifter. Why??? Because Robert and I have been involved in the Iron lifting game for many years and we have realized deadlifts simply aren't worth the tauma they cause to the back. I used to be a big advocate of the deadlift but not after my education with that exercise. I am close friends with two orthopedic surgeons and both perform multiple LOWER BACK surgeries each year because of "DEADLIFTS".  This exercise can cause spinal disk to blow and leave you CRIPPLED. I don't anymore to say???  *



This does not include SLDLs right?


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## fufu (Apr 11, 2006)

Now I'm torn on how I feel about deadlifts after reading this thread.


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## WantItBad (Apr 11, 2006)

wouldnt deadlifting help prevent lower back injury?


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## AKIRA (Apr 11, 2006)

fufu said:
			
		

> Now I'm torn on how I feel about deadlifts after reading this thread.




Yeah no shit.  I have a push/pull/leg routine and I have put it off due to a possible hernia.  However, I dont posses(sp?) many symptoms of a hernia and the things I did notice have gone, so maybe it was groin pull.

Anyway, my back has ached a little from some heavy dealifts and its been 3 weeks now since Ive lifted anything lowerbody.  Squats, dealifts, leg extensions, ham curls, etc.  I want to see a doc first before I go back.

However, I cant take this shit.  I want to do a real light workout program and really focus on form before going heavy..then this, THIS thread comes along.

HOWEVER.

I do recall reading Robert saying that this exercise could be fine, if its heavy/light enough for no less than, what, 8 reps?  Anything lower, with higher intesity is asking for it.  At least thats what I thought he was stating.
And thats exactly what I am going to go for next.


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## Seanp156 (Apr 11, 2006)

AKIRA said:
			
		

> I do recall reading Robert saying that this exercise could be fine, if its heavy/light enough for no less than, what, 8 reps?  Anything lower, with higher intesity is asking for it.  At least thats what I thought he was stating.
> And thats exactly what I am going to go for next.


It's funny then, that the only times I've ever gotten a pinched nerve from deadlifts was when I deadlifted in the 8-12 rep range about a year ago...


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## WantItBad (Apr 11, 2006)

our speed and strength coach in high school said to never deadlift over 6 reps ever


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## AKIRA (Apr 11, 2006)

Seanp156 said:
			
		

> It's funny then, that the only times I've ever gotten a pinched nerve from deadlifts was when I deadlifted in the 8-12 rep range about a year ago...




Aw jesus.  We are totally fucked then.


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## Seanp156 (Apr 11, 2006)

AKIRA said:
			
		

> Aw jesus.  We are totally fucked then.


I've been fine since staying in the 1-6 range most of the time, and only going above that once every 2-3 weeks.

The real issue in the individual, however, how prone they are to injury, etc.

I'm pretty much with PreMier on my opinion with this one.


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## zebianal (Apr 11, 2006)

I do deadlifts in the 6 rep range and right now i only deadlift about 115 pounds (yeah i know it sucks but i make sure i have perfect form). I guess i'll stop adding weight to my deadlift once i reach 225 or something to prevent accidents like this from happening.


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## CowPimp (Apr 11, 2006)

Not gonna stop me from doing deadlifts.  A lot of people think they have perfect form and don't.  A lot of people don't properly train their posterior chain to handle the load and round back that bitch off the ground.  A lot of people are genetically predisposed to problems like this, and likely would've suffered eventually via other exercises anyway.  A lot of people don't warmup properly.  

Does the deadlift have some inherent risk?  Sure, a lot of exercises do.  Just don't jump to conclusions because some people have had issues as a result.


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## Jay-Budaman (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks alot for scaring the shit out of me guys. Conventional deadlifts are my favorite exercise. I refuse to give them up. So what is the way to do them that is the least likely to cause injury? I usually do 3 sets of 4 @ 315 when training for strength and 3 sets of 10 at 275 when training for hypertrophy. But I'm still putting on weight because I consider myself a beginner when it comes to deads. I plan on doing 3 sets of 4 at 355 this week.


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## Brutus_G (Apr 11, 2006)

Man this worries me. I think I'm doing them right but now I'm not sure. Cowpimp will you post a vid with a perfect lift and explain form please or anyone who knows for sure. I was under the impression that back arched chest out and head up lifting from the legs,hips,and back straightening(while keeping it arched) was the way to do it.


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## fufu (Apr 11, 2006)

Brutus_G said:
			
		

> Man this worries me. I think I'm doing them right but now I'm not sure. Cowpimp will you post a vid with a perfect lift and explain form please or anyone who knows for sure. I was under the impression that back arched chest out and head up lifting from the legs,hips,and back straightening(while keeping it arched) was the way to do it.



Remember to keep the bar very close to body while pulling and also for the eccentric part of the lift. That is what has helped me the greatest when trying to improve form.


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## Brutus_G (Apr 11, 2006)

so just touching the body or like an inch or two away? Also why do people do the grip with one palm facing them and the other away?


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## fufu (Apr 11, 2006)

Brutus_G said:
			
		

> so just touching the body or like an inch or two away? Also why do people do the grip with one palm facing them and the other away?




Well I like to keep the bar extremely close to, or barely touching my shins when I start the pull. When the bar gets some distance from the body you put your self in the position for rounding your back easier.

The grip you are talking about is usually known as a "mixed grip", one hand supinated and one pronated. Most people can pull more weight using that kind of grip. However, P-Funk isn't a fan of mixed grip. I'll quote him from another thread: 

"1) The hand that is supinated (palm up) places a greater, more compromising strain on the bicep tendon. 

2) the supinated arm is always externally rotated while the pronated arm is always internally rotated. This puts some strange pull on the muscles in the spine and it is much easier to torque your back or rotate a little bit (especially if you are tight) during your pull."

Everything in moderation I suppose.


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## Brutus_G (Apr 12, 2006)

thanks man now i'm gonna go dead lift(no for real i'm gonna go do my workout for my lower body)


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## fufu (Apr 12, 2006)

Brutus_G said:
			
		

> thanks man now i'm gonna go dead lift(no for real i'm gonna go do my workout for my lower body)



haha alright man. good luck. remember, perfect form!!


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## Brutus_G (Apr 12, 2006)

I'm back and done thanks again! Oh shit man i dead lifted 211!!!! I'm just a little mad that i could'nt do pullups, i have no bar at home and the doors well lets say it's a old house lol.


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## zebianal (Apr 12, 2006)

A good thing i remember to keep proper form while doing deadlifts is by looking at one point at the wall in front of me (usually 2 or 3 meters above me) and that helps me from rounding my back. Just keep the bar really really close to your shins and think of a deadlift as a kind of squat. Use your legs to bring you down while keeping the bar close to your shins. I like to think  all my hands job to do in the deadlift is to keep the bar close to my shins and my legs are the ones responsible to complete the movements involved. This is something i like to remember when doing deadlifts and it helps me keep my form right.


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## Seanp156 (Apr 12, 2006)

Brutus_G said:
			
		

> so just touching the body or like an inch or two away? Also why do people do the grip with one palm facing them and the other away?



I keep it close enough, it used to scrape my shins... I've learned to control it better so it doesn't do that, but on occasion it still will sometimes.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 12, 2006)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Your a cheesedick



And your a SHIT HEAD.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 12, 2006)

MWpro said:
			
		

> This does not include SLDLs right?



Yes SLDL's can cripple you!!!

What really burns me is how guys like PreMier dont seem to care about the well being of others. Just because you can do deadlifts without pain means nothing. It only takes one time to really do you in and these disk degenerate over a period of time!!! Now if you recreational bodybuilders who never compete want to risk injury doing deadlifts and squats-ass to the ground it's your business but you can't say we didnt warn you.


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## CowPimp (Apr 12, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> Yes SLDL's can cripple you!!!
> 
> What really burns me is how guys like PreMier dont seem to care about the well being of others. Just because you can do deadlifts without pain means nothing. It only takes one time to really do you in and these disk degenerate over a period of time!!! Now if you recreational bodybuilders want to do risk injury doing deadlifts and squats-ass to the ground thats your decision but you can't say we didnt warn you. You gonna believe the Professionals in the medical field or some guy sitting behind a computer.



I don't consider you a medical professional.  

I don't think squatting ass to grass is great for everyone either, because a lot of people have flexibility problems that leads to them rounding their lower back at a certain depth.  Also, I start a lot of my clients off by having them deadlift off a litte rack boost until they strengthen their posterior chain enough to maintain good posture off the floor.


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

damn now i have no exercises to do for my hams(I workout at home), i was gonna start doing SLD's, is there any other exercises for the hams with just a bench and freeweights?


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## CowPimp (Apr 12, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> damn now i have no exercises to do for my hams(I workout at home), i was gonna start doing SLD's, is there any other exercises for the hams with just a bench and freeweights?



Glute bridges, glute ham raises, stepups, squatting PL style, etc.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 12, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> I don't consider you a medical professional.
> 
> I don't think squatting ass to grass is great for everyone either, because a lot of people have flexibility problems that leads to them rounding their lower back at a certain depth.  Also, I start a lot of my clients off by having them deadlift off a litte rack boost until they strengthen their posterior chain enough to maintain good posture off the floor.



CowPimp please quote me correctly. I never said I was a "MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL"!!!

My comments centered around the fact that I am friends with 2 medical professionals/orthopedics.

 WHY ARE YOU ON MY ASS ALL THE TIME?


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## Brutus_G (Apr 12, 2006)

Are there any other major injury causing lifts i should know about that require strict form? Oh and what is up with the behind the neck presses?


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## IRON MAN (Apr 12, 2006)

Jay-Budaman said:
			
		

> Thanks alot for scaring the shit out of me guys. Conventional deadlifts are my favorite exercise. I refuse to give them up. So what is the way to do them that is the least likely to cause injury? I usually do 3 sets of 4 @ 315 when training for strength and 3 sets of 10 at 275 when training for hypertrophy. But I'm still putting on weight because I consider myself a beginner when it comes to deads. I plan on doing 3 sets of 4 at 355 this week.



I'll be posting a powerlifting routine in my sub-forum in the near future. You might want to take a look at it when I sticky it.


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## Triple Threat (Apr 12, 2006)

DLs have been a part of my workouts for about 18 years now.  In that entire time, I've been hurt from them exactly once.  Ironically, it was during a warm-up set when I lost focus and let my back round while lowering the weight.  I gave the lower back about a month's rest and have had no problems ever since.

I plan to continue to do them.  For me, they're a low rep exercise, almost never going past 3 reps, no matter if I'm doing speed work, attempting a new PR (that would be a single), or anything in-between.

If anyone is afraid of doing them, for whatever reason, there are other exercises you can do.  I'm not planning on being in that group any time soon, though.  :fingers_crossed:


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## Triple Threat (Apr 12, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> I'll be posting a powerlifting routine in my sub-forum in the near future. You might want to take a look at it when I sticky it.



Great!    My workouts are mostly Westside-ish, so I'll be interested in what you have to say.

BTW, IRON MAN, for the past couple of months I've been using your rep scheme (medium/low/high) for my accessory work in my Westside-type workouts.  I've seen some strength increases along with some weight gain.


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## Seanp156 (Apr 12, 2006)

Brutus_G said:
			
		

> Are there any other major injury causing lifts i should know about that require strict form? Oh and what is up with the behind the neck presses?



Form is important in any movement, really... I, and many others here don't recommend doing behind the neck presses or pulldowns.


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## WantItBad (Apr 12, 2006)

bottom line is you can get hurt the lower back doing anything..walking...throwing up....unloading the dish washer...i think it depends on the person if it hurts dont do it....if it doesnt bother you than keep doing it


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## IRON MAN (Apr 12, 2006)

Triple Threat said:
			
		

> Great!    My workouts are mostly Westside-ish, so I'll be interested in what you have to say.
> 
> BTW, IRON MAN, for the past couple of months I've been using your rep scheme (medium/low/high) for my accessory work in my Westside-type workouts.  I've seen some strength increases along with some weight gain.



Great!


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## IRON MAN (Apr 12, 2006)

WantItBad said:
			
		

> bottom line is you can get hurt the lower back doing anything..walking...throwing up....unloading the dish washer...i think it depends on the person if it hurts dont do it....if it doesnt bother you than keep doing it



Theres a whole lot of truth to this statement as well.

 I've seen so much tradegy over the years I tend to lean on the cautious side of things. 

All I have to say is please be careful if you use deadlifts and if your lower back hurts during or afterwards find a different exercise.


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## PreMier (Apr 12, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> Yes SLDL's can cripple you!!!
> 
> What really burns me is how guys like PreMier dont seem to care about the well being of others. Just because you can do deadlifts without pain means nothing. It only takes one time to really do you in and these disk degenerate over a period of time!!! Now if you recreational bodybuilders who never compete want to risk injury doing deadlifts and squats-ass to the ground it's your business but you can't say we didnt warn you.



You sir are a pompous ass.. and for you to ASSUME that deadlifts are bad for everyone.. for you to ASSUME that I dont care about the well being of others is total bullshit.

When was the last time you did something to help someone out, other than giving cheap advice over an internet forum?  I could care less if you want to make generalized statements and toss your opinion all over them, but to claim them as some sort of a fact is rediculous.


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## AKIRA (Apr 12, 2006)

PreMier said:
			
		

> You sir are a pompous ass.. and for you to ASSUME that deadlifts are bad for everyone.. for you to ASSUME that I dont care about the well being of others is total bullshit.
> 
> When was the last time you did something to help someone out, other than giving cheap advice over an internet forum?  I could care less if you want to make generalized statements and toss your opinion all over them, but to claim them as some sort of a fact is rediculous.




I concur.
IRON MAN=KONAN


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

Glute bridges, glute ham raises, stepups, squatting PL style, etc
i have no idea what any of these are cowpimp, if i did i wouldnt have asked for a hamstring exercise do you know were i can get a vid of them online?
thnx


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## Jay-Budaman (Apr 12, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> I'll be posting a powerlifting routine in my sub-forum in the near future. You might want to take a look at it when I sticky it.



I sure will, thanks. I pulled 225 x 4, 315 x 4, 365 x 4 and 375 x 4 today. I wish I could have an experienced powerlifter evaluate my form to tell me if I'm doing them right. I try to apply the fundamentals and do dry runs in the mirror. But sometimes when I get up in the weight I feel the weight on my lower back first before my legs get involved. Is this normal?


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

Jay-Budaman said:
			
		

> I sure will, thanks. I pulled 225 x 4, 315 x 4, 365 x 4 and 375 x 4 today. I wish I could have an experienced powerlifter evaluate my form to tell me if I'm doing them right. I try to apply the fundamentals and do dry runs in the mirror. B*ut sometimes when I get up in the weight I feel the weight on my lower back first before my legs get involved. Is this normal?*




it sounds like you are shooting your hips up to quick from the bottom position and putting a lot of the load on your lumbar spine.  try and keep your chest up more and lift your hips up at the same time your chest is rising....think pushing against the floor like you would a leg press/


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## IRON MAN (Apr 12, 2006)

PreMier said:
			
		

> You sir are a pompous ass.. and for you to ASSUME that deadlifts are bad for everyone.. for you to ASSUME that I dont care about the well being of others is total bullshit.
> 
> When was the last time you did something to help someone out, other than giving cheap advice over an internet forum?  I could care less if you want to make generalized statements and toss your opinion all over them, but to claim them as some sort of a fact is rediculous.



Okay I take back the statement that you dont care about others as I really dont know but the attitude you have displayed toward me is poor. 

I agree with you on the fact deadlifts do not ruin "EVERYONES" back just as the flat bench press doesn't hurt everyones rotator cuff but how are you to know whether or not you will end up like the unfortunate guy who started this thread? I'm sticking to my guns in saying your taking a big chance with hurtin gyour lower back with deadlifts but I do realize some can do deadlifts with no problems. Are deadlifts worth the risk is the issue at hand...


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## Seanp156 (Apr 12, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> Okay I take back the statement that you dont care about others as I really dont know but the attitude you have displayed toward me is poor.
> 
> I agree with you on the fact deadlifts do not ruin "EVERYONES" back just as the flat bench press doesn't hurt everyones rotator cuff but how are you to know whether or not you will end up like the unfortunate guy who started this thread? I'm sticking to my guns in saying your taking a big chance with hurtin gyour lower back with deadlifts but I do realize some can do deadlifts with no problems. Are deadlifts worth the risk is the issue at hand...



Telling me not to do deadlifts is like telling me not to bench or squat... Are benching and squating worth the risk at hand? Many people(not involved in weight lifting) think lifting with free weights will screw you up. You can easily get injured doing squats, and benching as well, so I don't see the relevance to singling out deadlifts...

Nothing is certain when it comes to someone getting an injury, so don't go around spewing out, "Don't do deadlifts, they will cripple you."


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## IRON MAN (Apr 12, 2006)

Seanp156 said:
			
		

> Telling me not to do deadlifts is like telling me not to bench or squat... Are benching and squating worth the risk at hand? Many people(not involved in weight lifting) think lifting with free weights will screw you up. You can easily get injured doing squats, and benching as well, so I don't see the relevance to singling out deadlifts...
> 
> Nothing is certain when it comes to someone getting an injury, so don't go around spewing out, "Don't do deadlifts, they will cripple you."



I'm not saying EVERYONE should avoid deadlifts. My message is why take the chance in screwing up your lower back like ZIN and so many others have done if your not lifting competively???

I also try and discourage my clients from using "flat bench presses" and "presses behind the neck" for the same reasons. And yes most want to do flat bench press or else!!! "Weighted Hyperextensions" are much safer and very effective for building up the lower spine. Thats about all I have to say in this matter.


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## gopro (Apr 12, 2006)

Deadlifts are an awesome exercise, and done CORRECTLY will not only build a huge back, but a strong one, more resistant (not less) to injury.


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## CowPimp (Apr 12, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> CowPimp please quote me correctly. I never said I was a "MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL"!!!
> 
> My comments centered around the fact that I am friends with 2 medical professionals/orthopedics.
> 
> WHY ARE YOU ON MY ASS ALL THE TIME?



I wasn't trying to get on your ass, and I don't think I'm on it all the time.  I hardly even talk with you on these forums.

Okay, fair enough, you have friends who are medical professionals.  However, I guarantee there are boatloads of doctors involved in sports medicine that would consider the deadlift a great lift for a large number of people.  

Also, I agreed with you somewhat regarding ATG squats.  Personally, I just go as low as I can before I feel like my back is going to round.  I don't let it get to that point.  A lot of people have to start squatting above parallel, and have to be graduated to full squas over time.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 12, 2006)

gopro said:
			
		

> Deadlifts are an awesome exercise, and done CORRECTLY will not only build a huge back, but a strong one, less resistant (not more) to injury.



Go-po when you say "Huge Back" are you making reference to the lower back or upper back? 

Also do you think regular sit-ups build up the abs which in return helps stabilze the spine?


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## CowPimp (Apr 12, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> Glute bridges, glute ham raises, stepups, squatting PL style, etc
> i have no idea what any of these are cowpimp, if i did i wouldnt have asked for a hamstring exercise do you know were i can get a vid of them online?
> thnx



Glute bridges:
http://gymball.com/bridge_exercise.html
That band is optional.  I usually don't make my clients use one, but it might be a good idea if your butt "doesn't work right."

Glute ham raises:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Hamstrings/BBGluteHamRaise.html
Most gyms don't have a GHR machine, so you just have to anchor your feet under something and do them ghetto style.  If you do them without the machine, I guarantee you will need to push yourself out of the hole at the bottom, and you won't need anything more than bodyweight.

Stepups:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/DBStepUp.html
Can be done with a barbell as well.  I like stepping a little higher than that too.

PL Squat:
It is basically like a regular squats except for the following differences: your stance is generally wider, the bar sits lower on your back (On top of the rear delts as opposed to the traps), a little more forward lean is allowed, and you lift it by thrusting your hips forward and spreading the floor.


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## CowPimp (Apr 12, 2006)

gopro said:
			
		

> Deadlifts are an awesome exercise, and done CORRECTLY will not only build a huge back, but a strong one, less resistant (not more) to injury.



Please explain how deadlifting makes you less resistant to injury.  I'm not disagreeing (Though I can't guarantee I won't), but I would like to know why you feel this is so.


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## GenDJ (Apr 12, 2006)

i have a question..

Last year for football we had to do weight lifting competitions. Well, they gave us two choices on ways to do Deadlifts. One was Like with the back and all, and one was where you have A leg in the front of the bar, a leg in back, and you squat down to pick it up and dont use your back...

Why did they allow us to do these instead of the normal deadlifts for a lifting competition, was it just to avoid injuries, and does it do the same thing (in terms of Strengthening)


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## gopro (Apr 12, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> Go-po when you say "Huge Back" are you making reference to the lower back or upper back?
> 
> Also do you think regular sit-ups build up the abs which in return helps stabilze the spine?



Well, deadlifts will mostly build the erector spinae muscle group. However, huge traps are also borne of deadlifts...and it is my belief that they truly build thickness from the top to bottom of the back. You can always tell a "deadlifter's" back, as it has a thickness and density that is easy to spot...Ronnie Coleman, Johnny Jackson, Franco Columbo, etc.

Strong abdominals certainly help stabilize the spine, but I am not a fan of the sit up, as this works the hip flexors too hard, which can cause an imbalance that can actually help to injure the lower back.


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## gopro (Apr 12, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Please explain how deadlifting makes you less resistant to injury.  I'm not disagreeing (Though I can't guarantee I won't), but I would like to know why you feel this is so.



The stronger your lower back muscles are, the better. The deadlift is the best lower back strengther there is in my opinion. Also, there needs to be a balance between hip dominant and quad dominant exercise to keep the lower back healthy. Deadlifts are also the only pulling exercise that can balance out all of the heavy upper body pressing that we all do (most have an anterior/posterior imbalance). Rowing exercises are often not enough to counteract this.


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## Seanp156 (Apr 12, 2006)

gopro said:
			
		

> Well, deadlifts will mostly build the erector spinae muscle group. However, huge traps are also borne of deadlifts...and it is my belief that they truly build thickness from the top to bottom of the back. You can always tell a "deadlifter's" back, as it has a thickness and density that is easy to spot...Ronnie Coleman, Johnny Jackson, Franco Columbo, etc.
> 
> S*trong abdominals certainly help stabilize the spine, but I am not a fan of the sit up, as this works the hip flexors too hard, which can cause an imbalance that can actually help to injure the lower back.*


I do weighted decline situps with DB's (in the 5-10 rep range, so far anywhere from 35-50lbs)... Would you suggest replacing this with another weighted ab exercise (if so, what?), or is it fine?


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## motionman04 (Apr 12, 2006)

Is the romanian deadlift considered just as bad? Or not, because it focuses on hamstrings?


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## Brutus_G (Apr 12, 2006)

What about leg raises? My abs always feel burned after them. Also I've read the training stickies on training (cowpimp p funk)routines and I've read iron man's ideas they are very similar and both agree on most things split wise.


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## P-funk (Apr 13, 2006)

motionman04 said:
			
		

> Is the romanian deadlift considered just as bad? Or not, because it focuses on hamstrings?




just as bad as what?  a deadlift?



RDL's are a great exercise
deadlifts are a great exercise


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## CowPimp (Apr 13, 2006)

gopro said:
			
		

> The stronger your lower back muscles are, the better. The deadlift is the best lower back strengther there is in my opinion. Also, there needs to be a balance between hip dominant and quad dominant exercise to keep the lower back healthy. Deadlifts are also the only pulling exercise that can balance out all of the heavy upper body pressing that we all do (most have an anterior/posterior imbalance). Rowing exercises are often not enough to counteract this.



Right, I agree with you in a large way.  Scapular retraction is a function that is not strong enough in most people, and their posture and spinal alignment suck throughout the day and when lifting objects (Not even just traditional weight lifting).  Rack pulls are great for this too, although I think pulling off the floor is awesome to tear up your hips to a larger degree as well.

So aren't you saying that it makes you MORE resistant to injury?  I'm confused.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 13, 2006)

gopro said:
			
		

> Well, deadlifts will mostly build the erector spinae muscle group. However, huge traps are also borne of deadlifts...and it is my belief that they truly build thickness from the top to bottom of the back. You can always tell a "deadlifter's" back, as it has a thickness and density that is easy to spot...Ronnie Coleman, Johnny Jackson, Franco Columbo, etc.
> 
> Strong abdominals certainly help stabilize the spine, but I am not a fan of the sit up, as this works the hip flexors too hard, which can cause an imbalance that can actually help to injure the lower back.



We have trained with Ronnie Coleman on two different occasions and I don't think you could hurt his back with a sledge hammer.lol..These guys you mentioned are the exception rather than the rule. And Pros who take massive amounts of chemical enhancing agents have much stronger backs than the norm not to mention the extra cushioining effect the drugs provide. Thus allowing them to get by with exercises and heavy workloads a natural athlete could not with stand.


I agree about the LOWER BACK n TRAPS recieving much of the work with deads. But I believe SHRUGS and BACK EXTENSIONS are superior exercises for those areas.

   In regards to the sit-up I see them as a great ab exercise but as you stated they work the hip flexors too hard and the PSoas muscle forces the vertebrae into hyper-extension. I compare SIT-UPS to DEADLIFTS. Both are effective at building the stabilizing muscles but for some the added demand placed upon the spine does more harm than good.  

 Heres part of an article by Fredrick Hatfield I agree with. He believes as I  and my 2 othopedic friends. And that would be "back extensions are superior to deadlifts for building up the spinal erectors". 

*HATFIELD*



By far the biggest muscles of your lower back are the "erector" muscles. They're also the most visible. Your erector spinae muscles are designed to extend (and hyperextend) your spine. They do NOT act on your hip joint, so there's no reason to engage in exercises which require hip joint movement.

The best way to target your erectors is with "back extensions." This exercise requires the use of a specialized bench quite unlike the ones you're probably used to seeing around the gyms. To use this device to target your erectors, your feet are secured by the two foot pads which are backed by a metal plate that prevents your feet from slipping through. Your "belly button" is placed in the middle of the padded support. Your knees are bent. Then, your feet push against the metal plate in order to "lock" your upper legs against the padded bench. All of this ensures that only your erector muscles are targeted, and NOT your hip extensors (gluteals). Simply assume the described position and flex your spine (round your back downward). Hold as much weight behind your head as you can, and extend your spine (straighten it back out again). You should not raise way up by arching (hyperextending) your back, as doing so places too much strain on the intervertebral discs of your lumbar spine. Repeat for the desired number of reps.

This exercise is quite probably the ONLY low back exercise you will ever have to do. It is that effective.

Noted exceptions are deadlifts, squats, glute-ham raises and explosive high pulls, all of which involve the lower back muscles as either stabilizers or synergists. However, none is done for the express purpose of developing your lower back, and are probably unsuitable for most trainees outside clinical and sports-specific applications.


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## gopro (Apr 13, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Right, I agree with you in a large way.  Scapular retraction is a function that is not strong enough in most people, and their posture and spinal alignment suck throughout the day and when lifting objects (Not even just traditional weight lifting).  Rack pulls are great for this too, although I think pulling off the floor is awesome to tear up your hips to a larger degree as well.
> 
> So aren't you saying that it makes you MORE resistant to injury?  I'm confused.



Haha...apparently so am I!! LOL!! I apologize!! I MEANT that deadlifts make your back MORE (not less) resistant to injury!

It's funny because I was wondering why you might disagree with me, and now I went back and saw what I typed (now edited of course).


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## rangers97 (Apr 13, 2006)

gopro said:
			
		

> The stronger your lower back muscles are, the better. The deadlift is the best lower back strengther there is in my opinion. Also, there needs to be a balance between hip dominant and quad dominant exercise to keep the lower back healthy. *Deadlifts are also the only pulling exercise that can balance out all of the heavy upper body pressing that we all do (most have an anterior/posterior imbalance)*. Rowing exercises are often not enough to counteract this.


 
How exactly does a deadlift work to counteract a bench press?  If you think in terms of antagonistic exercises for push vs pull, you have bench press-rows, shoulder press-pullups, dips-upright rows, where does the deadlift fit into this?

I still don't see how it affects upper back mass as much as some of you are stating.  I mean, I am coming off doing a powerlifting routine, and all I can tell is that my erectors are fricken huge right now, but I feel I get nothing out of the deadlift in my upper back, all I feel after a day of deads is my lower back. (OK, so now someone is gonna say I have bad form, thats why, lol  )


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## P-funk (Apr 13, 2006)

rangers97 said:
			
		

> How exactly does a deadlift work to counteract a bench press?  If you think in terms of antagonistic exercises for push vs pull, you have bench press-rows, shoulder press-pullups, dips-upright rows, where does the deadlift fit into this?
> 
> I still don't see how it affects upper back mass as much as some of you are stating.  I mean, I am coming off doing a powerlifting routine, and all I can tell is that my erectors are fricken huge right now, but I feel I get nothing out of the deadlift in my upper back, all I feel after a day of deads is my lower back. (OK, so now someone is gonna say I have bad form, thats why, lol  )




If you have ever held a decenlt yheavy weight in your hands and moved through the full ROM of a deadlift or even an RDL for that matter you would know that the amount of force created by the upper back in the lift is crucial.  If you don't have strong rear delts, rhomboids, and trapezius muscles you are going to either (a) miss the lift, (b) round your back like crazy or  (c) rip your arms out of their sockets.  The deadlift places a great amount of pressure on the upper back.....the day after I deadlift my upper back is really sore!

Anyway, I agree with gopro 100%.....the deadlift is a crucial exercise in a training program.


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## rangers97 (Apr 13, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> If you have ever held a decenlt yheavy weight in your hands and moved through the full ROM of a deadlift or even an RDL for that matter you would know that the amount of force created by the upper back in the lift is crucial. If you don't have strong rear delts, rhomboids, and trapezius muscles you are going to either (a) miss the lift, (b) round your back like crazy or (c) rip your arms out of their sockets. The deadlift places a great amount of pressure on the upper back.....the day after I deadlift my upper back is really sore!
> 
> Anyway, I agree with gopro 100%.....the deadlift is a crucial exercise in a training program.


 
I wasn't being combatative, I was just asking for my knowledge, I hope that wasn't taken the wrong way.

I enjoy doing deadlifts, recently my lower back has felt a little funky, but I would advocate the exercise any day, I just wanted to know how it actually works the upper back.

One question though...is this "pressure" on the upper back the same kind of pressure as the lower back feels when you do something like a bent over row?  Meaning, is it more of an isometric type of thing (is that the correct term?) with the upper back where the lower back is the actual muscle being exercised?


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## P-funk (Apr 13, 2006)

rangers97 said:
			
		

> I wasn't being combatative, I was just asking for my knowledge, I hope that wasn't taken the wrong way.
> 
> I enjoy doing deadlifts, recently my lower back has felt a little funky, but I would advocate the exercise any day, I just wanted to know how it actually works the upper back.




I didn't think you were being combative.  I was just answering your question with an example.

anyhoo....if you back is feeling funky check your form or, drop the deadlifts for awhile in favor of something else.


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## CowPimp (Apr 13, 2006)

gopro said:
			
		

> Haha...apparently so am I!! LOL!! I apologize!! I MEANT that deadlifts make your back MORE (not less) resistant to injury!
> 
> It's funny because I was wondering why you might disagree with me, and now I went back and saw what I typed (now edited of course).



Haha, I thought something was amiss.  Thanks for the clarification.


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## AKIRA (Apr 17, 2006)

rangers97 said:
			
		

> How exactly does a deadlift work to counteract a bench press?  If you think in terms of antagonistic exercises for push vs pull, you have bench press-rows, shoulder press-pullups, dips-upright rows, where does the deadlift fit into this?
> 
> I still don't see how it affects upper back mass as much as some of you are stating.  I mean, I am coming off doing a powerlifting routine, and all I can tell is that my erectors are fricken huge right now, but I feel I get nothing out of the deadlift in my upper back, all I feel after a day of deads is my lower back. (OK, so now someone is gonna say I have bad form, thats why, lol  )



Actually, thats a good question.  I dont rememeber my upper back ever being sore.  But then again, that may be why I fucked something up.  

I thought I might had a hernia, but maybe it was just a groin pull.
In any case, I have completly started over with deadlifts.  Meaning I am back down to 135lbs focusing on nothing but form.  And it beat the shit out of me.   My hams were sore and my lower back a little, but not my upper back.  But then again, 'soreness is not an indicator or hypertrophy.'  No pain though, so I dont know.

Back to the subject, do RACK Deadlifts fall into this do not do deadlifts thread?


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## CowPimp (Apr 17, 2006)

AKIRA said:
			
		

> Back to the subject, do RACK Deadlifts fall into this do not do deadlifts thread?



Well, I don't think deadlifts fall into this do not do deadlifts thread, heh.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 18, 2006)

gopro said:
			
		

> Haha...apparently so am I!! LOL!! I apologize!! I MEANT that deadlifts make your back MORE (not less) resistant to injury!
> 
> It's funny because I was wondering why you might disagree with me, and now I went back and saw what I typed (now edited of course).





I think this could hold true for those who are EXTREMELY flexible but many trainers are not. I also do not believe that deadlifts when done properly work mostly the lower back. I think they mostly work the muscles in this order.

1. Quads
2. Hams
3. Glutes
4. Errectors
5. Traps
6. Abs. 

What's your thoughts on this???


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## IRON MAN (Apr 18, 2006)

rangers97 said:
			
		

> How exactly does a deadlift work to counteract a bench press?  If you think in terms of antagonistic exercises for push vs pull, you have bench press-rows, shoulder press-pullups, dips-upright rows, where does the deadlift fit into this?
> 
> I still don't see how it affects upper back mass as much as some of you are stating.  I mean, I am coming off doing a powerlifting routine, and all I can tell is that my erectors are fricken huge right now, but I feel I get nothing out of the deadlift in my upper back, all I feel after a day of deads is my lower back. (OK, so now someone is gonna say I have bad form, thats why, lol  )



Deadlifts are not a substitute for ROWS in terms of developing upper back thickness. Rows not deadlifts are the antagonist movement for the bench press. But like P-FUNK stated the deadlift can make your upper back/traps sore because they are used as stabilizers during the movement.

*Note:* When I train delts with over head presses my upper traps get sore. After one arm dumbell rows my lower traps get pumped. But thats not to say overhead presses and dumbell rows can be compared to shrugs in building trap mass. Same principle applies to deadlifts verses rows for upper back thickness!!!


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## P-funk (Apr 18, 2006)

how do they work your quads primarily with the deadlift?  Unless you are sitting way way low at the begining of the pull, I don't see how this is possible.  Your hips should be higher then the knees at the start of the pull. 

as far as the order of what gets worked when, there is no way you can offer up your opinion on that.  No two people pull the same way.  Likewise, the same person is not going to pull the same way or contract the same muscles in the same order as the weight nears a limit attempt.  Other factors get involved as the intensity rises.


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## PTYP (Apr 18, 2006)

Just thought Id chime in this thread, not because Im an expert because I am certainly not although I do have alot of experience in the gym, but because I do have personal and relevant experience with this exact topic. 

When I was in HS playing football, I took a pretty good shot to the head that transcended down the spine and ended up pinching a nerve that left me on the floor of 6, yes 6 days. I couldnt walk, sit, hell, I couldnt even get up to go to the bathroom w/o my back spazzing out. Excruciating pain. That was in 1993... over the next 10 years I would experience similar pains from doing the smallest thing.. picking up clothes from the floor, loading the dishwasher, playing basketball, or any sport for that matter.. in that 10 year time frame I would was at least 2x a year I would be on the floor again for 6 days not being able to move.

I started weight training again seriously again in 2003 and was reluctant to perform squats and of course deadlifts. However, one day I said wth.. Im feeling pretty good, lets just see what I can do. So I started off light and of the course of a few months continually increased weight in both squats and DLs. They have both been staples in my routine for 3 years and in that time, I have had 0 episodes to the extreme that I described above. 

I would love to say that squats and DLs have strengthened my lower back and have aided in keeping me from throwing the back in the last 3 years.

I will say however that a few weeks ago I started seeing a chiropractor that is helping me rebuild my rotator cuff muscles after a snowboarding incident, and she asked about my workouts. She was very adiment about NOT doing DLs.

Much like this thread in general, I too am giving conflicting ideas from myself w/ first hand experience and a medical professional that deals with this stuff daily.. who is right, who is wrong is irrelevant. It comes down to personal choice. If you feel you can do them and benefit greatly from them, then do so at your own risk. If you feel the risk does not warrant the reward, then dont do them.

And finally, I will say this one last thing about throwing backs. Everytime Ive experienced an episode to the magnitude I described above, it has ALWAYS been while bending or squating down... not up. So for DLs, I would say the negative is THE most dangerous part of the lift and strict form and absolute concentration should be used. Not to say I advocate not using strict form and absolute concentration on the way up, but definitely on the way down.

For what its worth..


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## IRON MAN (Apr 18, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> how do they work your quads primarily with the deadlift?  Unless you are sitting way way low at the begining of the pull, I don't see how this is possible.  Your hips should be higher then the knees at the start of the pull.
> 
> as far as the order of what gets worked when, there is no way you can offer up your opinion on that.  No two people pull the same way.  Likewise, the same person is not going to pull the same way or contract the same muscles in the same order as the weight nears a limit attempt.  Other factors get involved as the intensity rises.



Haven't you ever noticed how Louie Simmons preaches the "Box Squat" as an assistant movement for deadlifts??? 

I agree no two people pull exaclty the same but you are to lift with your "Legs", as when moving furniture, not your "Lower Back".


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## P-funk (Apr 18, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> Haven't you ever noticed how Louie Simmons preaches the "Box Squat" as an assistant movement for deadlifts???
> 
> I agree no two people pull exaclty the same but you are to lift with your "Legs", as when moving furniture, not your "Lower Back".




have you read any of louie's articles?  If you know anything about westside training, they use the box squat because they squat IN THE EXACT SAME MANNER that they deadlift. Which is a wide wide stance and sitting all the way back to really use the hip extensors and take the quads out of it.  Everything is from the glutes, hams and lower back with them.  The box squat is an assistance lift for the deadlift because the trunk angle and hip joint angle is supposed to be the exact same as the lockout when they are finishing the lift.

if you don't know what you are talking about...don't talk at all.


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## topolo (Apr 18, 2006)




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## shiznit2169 (Apr 18, 2006)

How about .. 

If you want to deadlift, then go ahead and deadlift

If you are concerned and do not want to risk it, then don't do it

Personally, i like to deadlift becausr it's one of the best mass building exercises and i just love pulling a lot of weight off the floor. It boosts my ego and huge guys are checking out my ass and getting a hard-on. That is definitely an accomplishment for me.

Now, what are you waiting for. Put on some chalk and go deadlift you pussies.


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## Brutus_G (Apr 18, 2006)

Lol 





> It boosts my ego and huge guys are checking out my ass and getting a hard-on. That is definitely an accomplishment for me.


 That's good to know man. I mainly feel deadlifts in my lower back,hipes,glutes,hams,and then quads. I don't at all feel my traps in the movement.


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## CowPimp (Apr 18, 2006)

Just to add to the topic of which muscles are stimulated most during a deadlift, you have to consider the center of gravity that you are lifting through during a deadlift.  It is shifted forward a lot relative to a squat, so torque on the hip joint is increased and torque on the knee joint is decreased.  Therefore, the emphasis moves away from your knee extensors (Quadriceps) and is shifted more toward your hip extensors (Glutes, hamstrings).  So, even if you sit down real low at the beginning of the deadlift, there is still going to be additional recruitment of the hip extensors relative to a squat.

Also, I'm referring to an Olympic style squat with the bar sitting high on your traps and a more upright stance as opposed to a PL squat performed with a wider stance and additional forward lean.


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## Brutus_G (Apr 18, 2006)

Should i be letting the weight hit the ground when i deadlift? I thought doing this takes off some tension from the muscles,but i see lots of guys in videos doing this for like 5-8 reps.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3517641807498259118&q=deadlift&pl=true
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6216339882038630725&q=deadlift&pl=true


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## CowPimp (Apr 18, 2006)

Brutus_G said:
			
		

> Should i be letting the weight hit the ground when i deadlift? I thought doing this takes off some tension from the muscles,but i see lots of guys in videos doing this for like 5-8 reps.
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3517641807498259118&q=deadlift&pl=true
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6216339882038630725&q=deadlift&pl=true



I usually alter the method I use for deadlifting for reps depending on where my sticking point is.  If my sticking point is near the floor, then I pause in between repetitions to help improve starting strength.  If my sticking point is higher up then I will usually kind of tap the weight on the floor in the interest of overloading the top portion of the lift a little more.


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## Brutus_G (Apr 18, 2006)

Ok thanks man. I feel mine is near the floor so i'll just take the pause then.


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## CowPimp (Apr 18, 2006)

Brutus_G said:
			
		

> Ok thanks man. I feel mine is near the floor so i'll just take the pause then.



You may also consider deadlifting from a deficit and additional work for your lower back.


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## Brutus_G (Apr 19, 2006)

Sorry to bug you again man but is this what you mean?


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## CowPimp (Apr 19, 2006)

Brutus_G said:
			
		

> Sorry to bug you again man but is this what you mean?



Yup.  Sometimes I even stand on an aerobic step or half a stackable plastic box or something.


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## gopro (Apr 19, 2006)

Ok, well, P-Funk and Cowpimp already did my job for me...and remarkably well I might add...so all I can do now is


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## IRON MAN (Apr 19, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Just to add to the topic of which muscles are stimulated most during a deadlift, you have to consider the center of gravity that you are lifting through during a deadlift.  It is shifted forward a lot relative to a squat, so torque on the hip joint is increased and torque on the knee joint is decreased.  Therefore, the emphasis moves away from your knee extensors (Quadriceps) and is shifted more toward your hip extensors (Glutes, hamstrings).  So, even if you sit down real low at the beginning of the deadlift, there is still going to be additional recruitment of the hip extensors relative to a squat.
> 
> Also, I'm referring to an Olympic style squat with the bar sitting high on your traps and a more upright stance as opposed to a PL squat performed with a wider stance and additional forward lean.



Yes!! It's very similar to SLDL'S in terms of torquing the hams-lower back-glutes and very similar to squats in terms of placing emphasis on the  quads-hamstrings-lower back and glutes..  

But I do not feel "DEADLIFTS" are no where near as effective as "ROWS" in terms of building "Lat Thickness"? Do you??? 

I do believe this movement is a great asset for powerlifters and athletes wanting to build overall physical strength. Also for those lucky individuals who are flexible enough to do deadlifts and not develop a back injury, this compound movement obviously involves multiple muscle groups at one time. But due to the lower back inuries I have witnessed with this exercise, I will only be pushing it for POWERLIFTERS who's focus is on overall strength as opposed to sheer muscle mass. I will push safer exercises such as weighted back extensions and hyper-extensions for working the lower back and leg curls and parallel squats for the hams/quads. 

*Note:* This solves alot of problems with setting up a training split for bodybuilders not wanting to over-train the lower back and CNS.


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## P-funk (Apr 19, 2006)

> Yes!! It's very similar to SLDL'S in terms of torquing the hams-lower back-glutes and very similar to squats in terms of placing emphasis on the  quads-hamstrings-lower back and glutes..



What the heck are you reffering to?  what are you talking about?



> But I do not feel "DEADLIFTS" are no where near as effective as "ROWS" in terms of building "Lat Thickness"? Do you???
> 
> I do believe this movement is a great asset for powerlifters and athletes wanting to build overall physical strength. Also for those lucky individuals who are flexible enough to do deadlifts and not develop a back injury, this compound movement obviously involves multiple muscle groups at one time. But due to the lower back inuries I have witnessed with this exercise, I will only be pushing it for POWERLIFTERS who's focus is on overall strength as opposed to sheer muscle mass. I will push safer exercises such as weighted back extensions and hyper-extensions for working the lower back and leg curls for the hamstrings.



weighted back extensions, as in the actual machine, are the worst thing for your back!  (a) you are starting from the bottom position and attempting to apply force without an eccentric contraction and preparation for the load you are concnetrically contracting against and (b) the set up of the machine is such that it is difficult to get into a good/safe position.  Way more dangerous then a deadlift

How are hyperextensions any different then deadlifts?  the trunk angle is the same and there are a few ways in which you can use the hyperextension bench:

1) hips locked and held statically/lumbar works dynamically
2) lowered pad, hips unlocked, hips work dynamically/thoracic works statically
3) lowered pad, hips unlocked, hips work dynamically/thoracic works dynamically (round back training)

None of these are vastly different then things you do when you deadlift save for #3 which you wouldn't want to do with heavy loads.




> *Note:* This solves alot of problems with setting up a training split for bodybuilders not wanting to over-train the lower back and CNS.



How does a deadlift overtrain your lower back and CNS anymore then a back squat?


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## IRON MAN (Apr 19, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> What the heck are you reffering to?  what are you talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. I was just making reference to the fact that Deadlifts primarily work the same muscle groups as the Squats and still-legged deadlits. Because the deadlift is a compound movement that places most not all but most of it's emphasis on the quadriceps, hamstrings, gluteus maximus, and the muscles in the lower back. The remaining muscles are involved in Stability Control just as the traps are a stabilizer in the over-head press. So the areas that garner the most benefit from the deadlift are the hams, hips, thighs, buttocks, lower back, and to some extent, the trapezius, latissimus dorsi, abs, and forearms. 


2. I also agree that the back extensions on a machine is far worse than deadlifts and it must be avoided at all cost!!! I'm referring to the back extension exercise that physical therapist hand out to people who are experiencing back problems. It was pro bodybuilder "Corrina Everson" who taught me the value of this lower back strengthening exercise. 

3. Hyper-extensions are not my favorite pick but I feel the odds of accidently rounding the back and or causing injury is less likely than with the deadlift. Again I have seen disk ruptures with deadlifts by those who knew proper exercise form and they make me nervous as a personal trainer. I only offer hyper-extensions to clients who have neck trouble and cannot do back extension on the floor. Some with back problems do better with no direct back or abs work at all!!! The back extension movement I am talking about is the antagonist movement to the crunch.  

4. Combining Deadlifts and Squats in the same training program places a great demand on the CNS. Back extensions isolate the lower back and produce very little strain on the CNS. Thus allwowing more energy to be spent on more effective upper back exercises such as pull-ups and Rows. In addition, the deadlift can be a bad exercise to use when trying to work around an injury such as a hurt shoulder, but back extension can generally be used year round.

*Note:* Again do not be surprised when you see me pushing deadlifts for powerlifting but on the same token I will continue to encourgage bodybuilders to use back extensions for lower back work.


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## P-funk (Apr 19, 2006)

> 4. Combining Deadlifts and Squats in the same training program places a great demand on the CNS. Back extensions isolate the lower back and produce very little strain on the CNS. Thus allwowing more energy to be spent on more effective upper back exercises such as pull-ups and Rows. In addition, the deadlift can be a bad exercise to use when trying to work around an injury such as a hurt shoulder, but back extension can generally be used year round.



how do you then propose that one works their posterior chain properly to balance out their loer body musculature.  The difference between the amount of tension created in squats and hyperextensions is so great that people are always going to have over powering quads which can be a dangerous thing for the knee joint.  How do you expect people to combat this problem?


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## CowPimp (Apr 19, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> But I do not feel "DEADLIFTS" are no where near as effective as "ROWS" in terms of building "Lat Thickness"? Do you???



I can't tell what you're asking.  Your usage of double negatives make me think you worded that wrong.  So, let me say that I feel deadlifts certainly promote growth in your scapular retractors (Traps, lats, rhomboids).  Whether or not the level of growth they stimulate will be greater than or equal to rowing movements I have no idea, and I don't think most people here can say definitively one way or the other either.




> 1. I was just making reference to the fact that Deadlifts primarily work the same muscle groups as the Squats and still-legged deadlits. Because the deadlift is a compound movement that places most not all but most of it's emphasis on the quadriceps, hamstrings, gluteus maximus, and the muscles in the lower back. The remaining muscles are involved in Stability Control just as the traps are a stabilizer in the over-head press. So the areas that garner the most benefit from the deadlift are the hams, hips, thighs, buttocks, lower back, and to some extent, the trapezius, latissimus dorsi, abs, and forearms.



I think it's a little nonsensical to assume that a movement has to be isotonic in nature to optimally promote growth and strength gains.  Also, the traps rotate the scapula upward at the top of an overhead press, so they do more than stabilize during that movement.




> 3. Hyper-extensions are not my favorite pick but I feel the odds of accidently rounding the back and or causing injury is less likely than with the deadlift. Again I have seen disk ruptures with deadlifts by those who knew proper exercise form and they make me nervous as a personal trainer. I only offer hyper-extensions to clients who have neck trouble and cannot do back extension on the floor. Some with back problems do better with no direct back or abs work at all!!! The back extension movement I am talking about is the antagonist movement to the crunch.



Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but I generally see more people rounding their backs when doing hyperextensions compared to deadlifts.  It's intuitive to flex your spine at the bottom of a hyperextension, and it's somewhat inuitive to keep a neutral spine when you deadlift.




> 4. Combining Deadlifts and Squats in the same training program places a great demand on the CNS. Back extensions isolate the lower back and produce very little strain on the CNS. Thus allwowing more energy to be spent on more effective upper back exercises such as pull-ups and Rows. In addition, the deadlift can be a bad exercise to use when trying to work around an injury such as a hurt shoulder, but back extension can generally be used year round.



So alternate between squats and deadlifts or perform them on different days.  You can manage CNS fatigue just fine if you structure your program properly, even with demanding exercises like that coupled together.  Hell, I do them on the same day quite often.  I just make sure I alter the other training variables frequently and deload as necessary.  My genetics and recovery abilities are sucky to average.


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## gopro (Apr 19, 2006)

Deadlifts should, and need to be done by serious trainees and those looking for a strong, injury free back. Deadlifts are by far the best back exercises when done with proper mechanics.  There is no replacement for this exercise as it brings into play more muscles than just about any other exercise.  Extension exercises are ok, but they ONLY WORK THE BACK EXTENSORS...nothing more! Deadlifts incorporate and strengthen approximately 30-35 different muscles, many of which are the deeper groups that actually support the discs of the spine.  

Yes it is true that if not done properly they CAN cause injury. However, it is not likely that it would be a herniation, or anything of that nature. This is because discs are made stronger by surrounding fibers called "sharpies fibers," that from a matrix of criss cross pattern that stabilize the disc.  The effects of this pattern make the disc STRONGER than bone. Basically, if you push straight down with powerful force on a bone and disc, the bone will shatter before the disc does.  

When it comes to herniations, it is lumbar flexion coupled with rotation that is the common culprit. This position actually unloads the discs and fibers and causes a release of the support therefore causing herniations. 

Anyway...do your deadlifts, but do them right!


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## gopro (Apr 19, 2006)

Seanp156 said:
			
		

> I do weighted decline situps with DB's (in the 5-10 rep range, so far anywhere from 35-50lbs)... Would you suggest replacing this with another weighted ab exercise (if so, what?), or is it fine?



The basic weighted crunch, swiss ball crunch, or cable crunch would be better. That said, you still can do weighted decline sit ups now and again. Just don't use them as your only ab exercise. Also, make sure to stretch the hip flexors after doing them. You do not want tight hip flexors.


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## shiznit2169 (Apr 19, 2006)

I'm just curious, how do you actually know if you have a herniated disk?


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## fufu (Apr 19, 2006)

shiznit2169 said:
			
		

> I'm just curious, how do you actually know if you have a herniated disk?



MRI I think. Or possibly an X-ray?


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## gopro (Apr 19, 2006)

shiznit2169 said:
			
		

> I'm just curious, how do you actually know if you have a herniated disk?



You need an MRI, which can detect soft tissue injury. I had an X-ray and it only looked like a compressed disc, then the MRI revealed a herniation.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 19, 2006)

shiznit2169 said:
			
		

> I'm just curious, how do you actually know if you have a herniated disk?



Usually pain or numbness in the lower extremeties is a sign of a herniated disk.


 Keep in mind I have read documentation where the disk themselves degenerate over a period of time from excessive workloads loads such as when doing heavy deadlifts. 

The disk itself has nerves located within and once it degenerates there can be pretty severe random pain down either leg and in the disk itself. With that being said you do not have to RUPTURE a disk to create a Chronic Back Problem. I THINK ALOT OF PEOPLE JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!  

*Note: Once you hurt a disk you'll never be the same regardless how strong your back muscle may be. Now if you gentlemen are like me, your not going to risk anything that can put a damper on your sex life and back problems will so that in short order!!! * :


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## kr1s1 (Apr 19, 2006)

I incorporate regular deads and straight legged deads in my workouts, Ive only had slight twinges from perhaps not warming up fully or slip of form. I agree with the guys who say genetics play a part, if you dead lift for years like me and have had no issues why not carry on, if you pick an injury up and are smart enough to admit deads arnt the best exercise for you then find an altenative.
I know a guy who cant shoulder press due to genetics and he has wicked front delts, he simply uses alternative exercises to target the fdelts....easy


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## IRON MAN (Apr 19, 2006)

kr1s1 said:
			
		

> I incorporate regular deads and straight legged deads in my workouts, Ive only had slight twinges from perhaps not warming up fully or slip of form. I agree with the guys who say genetics play a part, if you dead lift for years like me and have had no issues why not carry on, if you pick an injury up and are smart enough to admit deads arnt the best exercise for you then find an altenative.
> I know a guy who cant shoulder press due to genetics and he has wicked front delts, he simply uses alternative exercises to target the fdelts....easy



I agree that the common sense approach is best. But I do not necessarily agree that genetics and the use of good form is the end-all to not being injured. For example, many all of a sudden develop shoulder injuries from doing bench presses and or over-head presses regardless of gentics or the form they use. On the same note some have developed permanent damage to their lower backs with deadlifts. A severe shoulder injury might put you out of training but a severely damaged lower back can put you out of work on a permanent basis and that's something to think about.


----------



## P-funk (Apr 19, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> Keep in mind I have read documentation where the disk themselves degenerate over a period of time from excessive workloads loads such as when doing heavy deadlifts.




Did you know that it is documented proof that people in america have more back pain then woman in africa who labor all day, carrying large buckets of water from the river to their homes on top of their heads?

Do you know why this is?

it is because america has bread a chair based society.  Sitting all day leads to many more problems with the lumbar spine then getting to the gym and actually doing something about it.  Building muscle, strengthening stabalizers and actively preparing for everyday movement.  People bend over to pick shit up all day...boxes, bags, children, etc......how is any of this different then a deadlift (except for the load being lifted).

If you are ruling out deadlifts for this reason, then you need to rule out squats too because they place just as much (maybe more) compressive force on the spine.  Overhead presses!.....lots of compressive force there too.

the problem isn't that people go out and exercise...it is that THEY DON'T GO OUT AND EXERCISE.  they need to get out and do this stuff.

Obviously, hitting limit attempts is not for everyone.

How do we make the exercise safer when we are doing reps since being in a prone position, lifting weight from the floor and being fatigued (as you are in the later reps of a set) IS DANGEROUS!  Simple.....we do cluster sets.  You want to do 3 sets of 10 reps on the deadlift.  Do all 10 reps with 10-20sec. in between each rep in order to focus on proper pulling form, good rep execution and limit fatigue, when pulling in this dangerous position.


You still never answered my question about hamstring/glute strengthening exercises to balance out squatting and quad strength.



To add to this, world class strength coach, Mike Boyle, told me that he doesn't have any of his athletes deadlift or back squat because he doesn't want to put that much force on their back since they are so strong (most of his athletes are hockey players).  So what do they do.....the front squat and they do single leg DB deadlifts.  the front squat is quad dominant and the single leg deadlift takes a lot of load off the back since you can't use that much weight.  I wouldn't go as far to drop squatting and deadlifting out of my routine but it has certainly worked for him and the athletes he trains.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 19, 2006)

Brutus_G said:
			
		

> Lol  That's good to know man. I mainly feel deadlifts in my lower back,hipes,glutes,hams,and then quads. I don't at all feel my traps in the movement.



My personal experience with deadlifts is when I start bumping my shins
during the movement, it's because I'm starting the lift with my lower back,
instead of my "Upper Legs" and "Glutes". Starting the lift with the legs,
naturally straightens them up and gets the shins out of the way as the bar travels up.

Proper deadlift form is to start bent kneed, then begin the lift by
flexing the upper leg area ( quads, hams, glutes ). Continue through
mid-lift with the primary mover being the glutes at this juncture. And then about three
quarters into it, bring in the lower back muscles.

*Note:* Finish off with a nice flex of the upper back and traps!!!


----------



## IRON MAN (Apr 19, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> Did you know that it is documented proof that people in america have more back pain then woman in africa who labor all day, carrying large buckets of water from the river to their homes on top of their heads?
> 
> Do you know why this is?
> 
> ...



Apparently world class strength coach Mike Boyle has seen some back injuries from doing heavy deadlifts as have I, but doesn't his theory debunk GO-PROS.'

*Note:* GO-PRO is stating that heavy deadlifts like those performed in the Johnny Jackson video actually help not hurt the back as Mike Boyle claims. But I would agree with GO-PRO on the fact that regular deadlifts are safer because a single legged deadlift would put the spine in a very vulnerable position because of the twisting motion. 

In regards to everyday lifting, most aren't lifting to failure like Johnny Jackson does in his video and the weight loads are much lighter.  However, theres been multiple back injuries by people who move furniture for a living. As with deadlifts some get by with it while others end up crippled. And yes they are taught how to lift with the legs while keeping their backs arched.

I was not avoiding your question. I'll go back and answer it.


----------



## IRON MAN (Apr 19, 2006)

gopro said:
			
		

> Ok, well, P-Funk and Cowpimp already did my job for me...and remarkably well I might add...so all I can do now is



I'm not quite finished with you..


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## CowPimp (Apr 19, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> My personal experience with deadlifts is when I start bumping my shins
> during the movement, it's because I'm starting the lift with my lower back,
> instead of my "Upper Legs" and "Glutes". Starting the lift with the legs,
> naturally straightens them up and gets the shins out of the way as the bar travels up.
> ...



You're not starting the lift with your lower back.  Your lower back extends the spine, not the hips.  If the bar is rubbing your shins that just means you have better posture; your lower back is holding your spine in position nicely.  If you start to lean forward or round your back you will drift away, which not only  potentially compromsies the safety of the lift to some degree (Although you can certainly maintain a neutral spine and merely be very close to your shins), but decreases your leverage.


----------



## gopro (Apr 19, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> Apparently world class strength coach Mike Boyle has seen some back injuries from doing heavy deadlifts as have I, but doesn't his theory debunk GO-PROS.'
> 
> *Note:* GO-PRO is stating that heavy deadlifts like those performed in the Johnny Jackson video actually help not hurt the back as Mike Boyle claims. But I would agree with GO-PRO on the fact that regular deadlifts are safer because a single legged deadlift would put the spine in a very vulnerable position because of the twisting motion.
> 
> ...



No, I am not stating that about Johnny's approach to deadlifts. I feel he is too ballistic in his lifting style. Actually, on most exercises his form sucks. The only time I mentioned Johnny is in the obvious effect that heavy deadlifts have had on his back. I can GUARENTEE you that his back would look nothing like it does if he just did rows and back extensions.


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## gopro (Apr 19, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> Usually pain or numbness in the lower extremeties is a sign of a herniated disk.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind I have read documentation where the disk themselves degenerate over a period of time from excessive workloads loads such as when doing heavy deadlifts.
> ...



Yes, discs degenerate over time...and I would venture to guess that 99% of lifters on this site that have been training seriously for more than 10 years have at least a minor herniation, most likely at L5/S1. However, most do not feel it, especially if the entire core is trained properly...and deadlifts is one of the keys to this.

Last year I ended up in bed for 8 full weeks because of a disc herniation that became full blown sciatica. After looking at my MRI my doc said it looked as if I had been in a major car accident. However, he already new that this problem literally came out of nowhere. He explained that I probably had the herniation for many years but never felt it because of my core strength holding everything in place (so to speak).

When he asked me if anything in my program had changed over the last few months (before the pain began), I told him that only one thing I was doing was different...........I STOPPED DEADLIFTING!!

Bingo!


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## gopro (Apr 19, 2006)

You want to stay injury free, you must do lifts that mimic what we do in everyday life. We must not only thing in terms of the muscles we can see, but those that lie deep. Functional lifting builds strong, functional bodies. There must be a balance of strength between the muscles that move us, and those that stabilize us. The only way to do this is to deadlift, overhead press, squat, lunge, twist, row, etc. I call this 3-dimensional lifting. We do not live life attached to machines, but in a 3-dimensional environment, that requires strength, balance, and stabilization all at once.

Of course, all of the above is moot if proper technique is not used. When poor technique is used, you can get hurt from deadlifting or doing reverse wrist curls.

That said, if you use training to build true functional strength from head to toe, you can get away with many more "physical mishaps" in life that would otherwise cause major problems.


----------



## IRON MAN (Apr 19, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> how do you then propose that one works their posterior chain properly to balance out their loer body musculature.  The difference between the amount of tension created in squats and hyperextensions is so great that people are always going to have over powering quads which can be a dangerous thing for the knee joint.  How do you expect people to combat this problem?





1. If one of my clients begins to experience knee pain from squats I have them do 2 light sets of leg extensions and 3 sets of leg curls to strengthen the typically weaker parts of the leg. I also make sure their knees do not drift out over their toes. I also make sure they push with their legs, not with their back. I encourage them to use a lighter weight if need be inorder to maintain proper form, and try to keep the back as upright as they can while maintaining the natural arch. 

*Note:*The women I train often have to lean forward a bit more. I make sure they do not round their upper back as they ascend.

2. I give the exact same advice for deadlifts. The drive should be coming from the legs, hips, and glutes not the lower back. The back should be as straight as possible with the natural arch remaining in the lower back but not necessarily upright. At the top of the repetition I have them squeeze their hips and glutes in a sort of pelvic tilt to drive the hips forward. As the hips come forward, the back straightens on its own. Like COWPIMP I have them use light weights utill they get used to the movement. I've noticed when the weight is too heavy people tend to lift with their back too much. GO-PRO pointed out this very thing about Johnny Jackson who is a back injury waiting to happen!!!  

*Note:* For powerlifters with a weak back I  add in some extra lower back work and cut back on their squats and deadlifts for a little while until their weak link catches up. I use slow controlled weighted behind the head back extensions first and hyperextensions second. Also I make sure their abs are strong by incorporating weighted crunches and reverse crunches. A strong core-(abdominals and lower back) is one of the best preventive measure against injury along with flexibility. 

So for weak kness it's "Leg Extensions" and "Leg Curls." A weak back get "Back Extensions and Crunches."  

Does that answer your question or did I miss the boat?


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## IRON MAN (Apr 20, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> You're not starting the lift with your lower back.  Your lower back extends the spine, not the hips.  If the bar is rubbing your shins that just means you have better posture; your lower back is holding your spine in position nicely.  If you start to lean forward or round your back you will drift away, which not only  potentially compromsies the safety of the lift to some degree (Although you can certainly maintain a neutral spine and merely be very close to your shins), but decreases your leverage.



You are correct...  What I was trying to get across is I have gotten out of position in the past when the bar hit my shins. I "Over-Compensated" with my back to allow the bar to travel outward/upward, thus, rounding out my back. Hitting the shins can get you hurt!!!


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## Brutus_G (Apr 20, 2006)

I have another question referring to the spine. Lol yes i know another one,but please help me on this. When i squat,dead lift,or do heavy shrugs after I've done the exercise my back seems to...decompress(almost expanding back up..) it doesn't hurt and I'm sure my form is spot on(had my mom watch me and have a mirror that i can watch myself lift.). Well my question is should my spine be feeling like this after a  heavy lift? Like i said it's not a pain.


----------



## P-funk (Apr 20, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> 1. If one of my clients begins to experience knee pain from squats I have them do 2 light sets of leg extensions and 3 sets of leg curls to strengthen the typically weaker parts of the leg. I also make sure their knees do not drift out over their toes. I also make sure they push with their legs, not with their back. I encourage them to use a lighter weight if need be inorder to maintain proper form, and try to keep the back as upright as they can while maintaining the natural arch.
> 
> *Note:*The women I train often have to lean forward a bit more. I make sure they do not round their upper back as they ascend.
> 
> ...



You totally missed the boat.

Leg curls do jack shit for strengthening the hamstrings at the hip your hip.

back extensions wont get you the same load as a squat.....so again I as...HOW DO YOU BALANCE OUT YOUR JOINT MOVEMENTS WITH THE SQUAT?????  WHAT HIP EXTENSION EXERCSIES DO YOU DO THAT ARE COMPARABLE TO THE SQUAT IN TERMS OF VOLUME LOAD (TOTAL TONNAGE)....


quit dodging the question.  Your answers are becoming more and more vague.


----------



## P-funk (Apr 20, 2006)

gopro said:
			
		

> You want to stay injury free, you must do lifts that mimic what we do in everyday life. We must not only thing in terms of the muscles we can see, but those that lie deep. Functional lifting builds strong, functional bodies. There must be a balance of strength between the muscles that move us, and those that stabilize us. The only way to do this is to deadlift, overhead press, squat, lunge, twist, row, etc. I call this 3-dimensional lifting. We do not live life attached to machines, but in a 3-dimensional environment, that requires strength, balance, and stabilization all at once.
> 
> Of course, all of the above is moot if proper technique is not used. When poor technique is used, you can get hurt from deadlifting or doing reverse wrist curls.
> 
> That said, if you use training to build true functional strength from head to toe, you can get away with many more "physical mishaps" in life that would otherwise cause major problems.




exactly.


----------



## IRON MAN (Apr 20, 2006)

gopro said:
			
		

> Yes, discs degenerate over time...and I would venture to guess that 99% of lifters on this site that have been training seriously for more than 10 years have at least a minor herniation, most likely at L5/S1. However, most do not feel it, especially if the entire core is trained properly...and deadlifts is one of the keys to this.
> 
> Last year I ended up in bed for 8 full weeks because of a disc herniation that became full blown sciatica. After looking at my MRI my doc said it looked as if I had been in a major car accident. However, he already new that this problem literally came out of nowhere. He explained that I probably had the herniation for many years but never felt it because of my core strength holding everything in place (so to speak).
> 
> ...



Stopping deadlifts had nothing to do with your disk herniating. If that was the case everyone who did not deadlift would have disk herniations. I wish it were that simple!!! 

*Note: What exercises/activities had you been doing the week prior to having the sciatica kick it. What had you been doing when you first felt this leg/hip pain start?  *


----------



## IRON MAN (Apr 20, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> exactly.



 I had read this same cliche many time in the past. Yes it sounds good on paper but in real life experiences it doesn't always pan out. For e.g.; This article is stating "Everyone Must" do such things as overhead pressing. What about those who cannot overhead press or bench press without causing "MORE" trauma to the shoulder girdle??? I do not believe that for one minute that shoulder injuries are always caused by poor form with those two exercises yet they are movements we do everyday!!! 

I also read were GO-PRO uses the "Neck Press" for chest. Do you realize that particular exercise can destroy the rotator cuff. Vince Gironda caused many to have shoulder problems by preaching "Neck Presses" for chest development.  

*Note: As with the shoulders press, the deadlift can be hard on the back due to the intensity employed!!!*


----------



## Brutus_G (Apr 20, 2006)

Hey does anyone know what i'm talking about? And is this bad


> When i squat,dead lift,or do heavy shrugs after I've done the exercise my back seems to...decompress(almost expanding back up..)


----------



## P-funk (Apr 20, 2006)

Ironman,

I can see how you have dodged my question again!


Why do you put a "NOTE" at the end of each post like you are saying somethign important?  it is clear your understanding of simple biomechanics is piss poor.

Note: I though that you were only a partial dumb fuck.....Now I am certain you are a 100% jack fuck moron.


----------



## gopro (Apr 20, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> Stopping deadlifts had nothing to do with your disk herniating. If that was the case everyone who did not deadlift would have disk herniations. I wish it were that simple!!!
> 
> *Note: What exercises/activities had you been doing the week prior to having the sciatica kick it. What had you been doing when you first felt this leg/hip pain start?  *



You did not comprehend the meaning of that post properly IM. What the doc was saying was that the herniation already existed, but that heavy deadlifting kept all of the muscles supporting my spine in top condition, thus, my body was unaffected by the herniation. Once I stopped deadlifting, I lost valuable core strength that caused the herniation to rear its ugly head.

And by the way, this is not just any old doctor. He works with professional football players, baseball players, as well as Olympic athletes. All who go to him to literally keep them on the field.


----------



## gopro (Apr 20, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> I also read were GO-PRO uses the "Neck Press" for chest. Do you realize that particular exercise can destroy the rotator cuff. Vince Gironda caused many to have shoulder problems by preaching "Neck Presses" for chest development.
> 
> *Note: As with the shoulders press, the deadlift can be hard on the back due to the intensity employed!!!*



Yes I have done them for many years, as heavy as 405 on the smith machine, and have not had a single problem with my shoulders.

They should only be used by those with very flexible shoulder joints, and after extensive warmup.


----------



## NMOY (Apr 20, 2006)

Lol wow wow wow guys, lets all cool out and pound a protien shake or something!


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## IRON MAN (Apr 20, 2006)

gopro said:
			
		

> You want to stay injury free, you must do lifts that mimic what we do in everyday life. We must not only thing in terms of the muscles we can see, but those that lie deep. Functional lifting builds strong, functional bodies. There must be a balance of strength between the muscles that move us, and those that stabilize us. The only way to do this is to deadlift, overhead press, squat, lunge, twist, row, etc. I call this 3-dimensional lifting. We do not live life attached to machines, but in a 3-dimensional environment, that requires strength, balance, and stabilization all at once.
> 
> Of course, all of the above is moot if proper technique is not used. When poor technique is used, you can get hurt from deadlifting or doing reverse wrist curls.
> 
> That said, if you use training to build true functional strength from head to toe, you can get away with many more "physical mishaps" in life that would otherwise cause major problems.



Hey at least we are all concerned about the safety of our well being and that's the main thing here  as this debate will never be finalized.  But I would like to say one thing about "Functional Lifting." The sit-up is a perfect example of mimicing everyday life. When we wake up in the morning we don't *CRUNCH* our way out of bed. We do a *SIT-UP* !!! 

With that being said the same exact scenario applies to *DEADLIFTS!!!* You could take a group of people who had no prior back trouble. Have them mimic a deadlift by lifting a few 50 pound bags of mulch over a period of time while doing yard work and they wouldn't experience any serious back pain/problems. Muscle pain maybe but not disk pain. But take that same group of people and have them heave up "Heavy Weights" with "Extreme Intensity" and some will end up nearly crippled.  *No one can say with any accuracy who will and who will not end up with chronic debilitating back pain from doing deadlifts. The same goes for over-head presses and rotator cuff pain but I am extremely cautious because back trouble is far more extreme than a shoulder injury.* 

Did heavy deadlifts cause your disk to herniate over a period of time? I can't say for sure but my gut feeling is possibly.


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## P-funk (Apr 20, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> Hey at least we are all concerned about the safety of our well being and that's the main thing here  as this debate will never be finalized.  But I would like to say one thing about "Functional Lifting." The sit-up is a perfect example of mimicing everyday life. When we wake up in the morning we don't *CRUNCH* our way out of bed. We do a *SIT-UP* !!!




people, however, perform crunches in an effort to strength their abs without the hip flexors exhibiting synergystic dominance (as seen in the sit up, when you get past the first 20 degree or so, the hip flexors pull you the rest of the way up).  Majority of people have tight/over active hip flexors and weak abdominals, displaying an excessive anterior pelvic tilt (also sometimes reffered to as lower cross syndrome).  

So, in an effort to strengthen the abs and decrease the activety of the hip flexors, which are already overly tight, they do crunches.


again, if you have nothing smart to say then say nothing at all.  You seriously don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## IRON MAN (Apr 20, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> people, however, perform crunches in an effort to strength their abs without the hip flexors exhibiting synergystic dominance (as seen in the sit up, when you get past the first 20 degree or so, the hip flexors pull you the rest of the way up).  Majority of people have tight/over active hip flexors and weak abdominals, displaying an excessive anterior pelvic tilt (also sometimes reffered to as lower cross syndrome).
> 
> So, in an effort to strengthen the abs and decrease the activety of the hip flexors, which are already overly tight, they do crunches.
> 
> ...



Dude you need a serious attitude adjustment!!!!!  Have I disrespected you in any way in this debate? No I have not and I'd appreciate it if you treated me with the same respect I have shown towards you and the others. If you can't say something nice it's best to say nothing at all.. 

So now your trying to tell us that SIT-UPS aren't hard on the back if you have strong abs??? Oh dear Lord!!!


----------



## P-funk (Apr 20, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> Dude you need a serious attitude adjustment!!!!!  Have I disrespected you in any way in this debate? No I have not and I'd appreciate it if you treated me with the same respect I have shown towards you and the others. If you can't say something nice it's best to say nothing at all..
> 
> So now your trying to tell us that SIT-UPS aren't hard on the back if you have strong abs??? Oh dear Lord!!!




I didn't say sit-ups weren't hard on the back.  I just gave reasons for crunches.

I wont say anything else since i have nothing nice to say at all.  You should stop talking too because clearly you are not very smart and have nothing intelligent to say.


----------



## IRON MAN (Apr 20, 2006)

gopro said:
			
		

> You did not comprehend the meaning of that post properly IM. What the doc was saying was that the herniation already existed, but that heavy deadlifting kept all of the muscles supporting my spine in top condition, thus, my body was unaffected by the herniation. Once I stopped deadlifting, I lost valuable core strength that caused the herniation to rear its ugly head.
> 
> And by the way, this is not just any old doctor. He works with professional football players, baseball players, as well as Olympic athletes. All who go to him to literally keep them on the field.



You still do not understand what I am trying to get across here. Yes deadlifts do strengthen the core muscles as do sit-ups but those same exercises that hold our spine in place can do damage to the spinal disk. It's a mistake to treat the back muscle and the spinal disk as the same entity. And no doctor can get you back on the playing field after severe nerve damage occurs.  

 One of my friends is the #1 Pain Management Specialist in our area. Dennis told me that developing strong core muscle can sometime alleviate the symptoms of a HERNIATED disk that are not fully RUPTURED because of what you just stated -(stronger core muscles). On the other hand, he also claimed that trying to strengthen the core muscle with direct "Abdominal and Lower Back" work  can sometimes actually cause the herniated disk to escelate into a full blown rupture.  Then you are going under the knife. With that comes scar tissue build up etc, . Again it's not as simple as doing an exercise and getting better once the damage has been done. I have a "Prevention Mentality" as opposed to "Damage Control." when it comes to something as serious as the spine


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## IRON MAN (Apr 20, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> I didn't say sit-ups weren't hard on the back.  I just gave reasons for crunches.
> 
> I wont say anything else since i have nothing nice to say at all.  You should stop talking too because clearly you are not very smart and have nothing intelligent to say.



I'll say this and we can agree to disagree.   P-FUNK you sound like a guy who thinks he knows it all but in reality you've OBVIOUSLY never experienced any "SEVERE BACK PROBLEMS". I challenge you to go visit your local "Spine Center" and see how many of those people you can cure with SIT-UPS and DEAD-LIFTS.


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## CowPimp (Apr 20, 2006)

Regarding the whole issue of the degeneration of spinal disks, I have begun to implement a novel idea (Well probably not novel, but something that kind of just struck me after reading a few articles on the subject from powerlifters who beat the shit out of their spines) in my own program.  When unloading (Every 5-6 weeks), I'm going to avoid directly loading my spine throughout the entire week.  I think this will largely quell the issue of disk degeneration over time, as I am giving them a chance to fully recover for an entire 2 months or more every year.

Also, regarding the issue of properly stimulating the posterior chain, I still say deadlifts (Or at least some variation thereof) are necessary.  Extensions aren't going to cut it.  There is no way in Hell that squatting can be balanced out by an isolation movement like that in my opinon.  I think good mornings are awesome, but I feel those are much riskier than deadlifts.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 20, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Regarding the whole issue of the degeneration of spinal disks, I have begun to implement a novel idea (Well probably not novel, but something that kind of just struck me after reading a few articles on the subject from powerlifters who beat the shit out of their spines) in my own program.  When unloading (Every 5-6 weeks), I'm going to avoid directly loading my spine throughout the entire week.  I think this will largely quell the issue of disk degeneration over time, as I am giving them a chance to fully recover for an entire 2 months or more every year.
> 
> Also, regarding the issue of properly stimulating the posterior chain, I still say deadlifts (Or at least some variation thereof) are necessary.  Extensions aren't going to cut it.  There is no way in Hell that squatting can be balanced out by an isolation movement like that in my opinon.  I think good mornings are awesome, but I feel those are much riskier than deadlifts.



GOOD MORNINGS??? Are you joking??? That exercise put my good friend out of training for over 5 years. The guy had 7 major lower back surgeries due to that stupid exercise. Good Mornings are  worse than the Back Extension machine. I strongly urge you and  everyone else on this board to shun Good Mornings. That exercise can cripple you in a blink of an eye!!!  Weighted back extensions and crunches will suffice. Just give it a try and see for yourself.


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## shiznit2169 (Apr 20, 2006)

Listen people

To each its own. Do what you want to do. Don't let others influence you and make you change your way of thinking. Everyone has their own views and opinions.


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## P-funk (Apr 20, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> I'll say this and we can agree to disagree.   P-FUNK you sound like a guy who thinks he knows it all but in reality you've OBVIOUSLY never experienced any "SEVERE BACK PROBLEMS". I challenge you to go visit your local "Spine Center" and see how many of those people you can cure with SIT-UPS and DEAD-LIFTS.



curing and preventing are two different things.

I don't know everything.  But neither do you.......so please stop with "Note: blah blah blah"  at the end of each of your posts, like you are saying something very meaningful and thought provoking to everyone here.

I am sorry that I attacekd you.  That was more of my New York side coming out.  I should have been a bit more "honed down".  Since i am moving out of NYC I guess I have to try and drop the NYC vibe.  So I will start now....

I will agree to disagree with you on this.  While I see where you are coming from I will still stand by my reasoning that peoples weak, under developed core and posterior chain are what create majority of back problems in this society.  walk into a chiropractic office and ask people how they got their back problem and I can bet you that you may find one out of 40 that say they got it in the gym.  Most will say it was doing somethign that they do everyday and/or some freak thing like skiing.  In both cases this may have potentially been avoid had the person been more able to withstand the forces being placed on their spine at that time and had better stabilizatio throughout the movement or task they were performing.  While I can agree that limit attempts for the gerneral public are not neccessary, I will say that strengthening the posterior chain is still a vitale part of creating a strong healthy body.

-patrick


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## IRON MAN (Apr 20, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> curing and preventing are two different things.
> 
> I don't know everything.  But neither do you.......so please stop with "Note: blah blah blah"  at the end of each of your posts, like you are saying something very meaningful and thought provoking to everyone here.
> 
> ...



N.Y. eh? That explains alot.. Thank you and I agree that some back pain comes from a lack of exercise. I will stick with my beliefs as well, and that belief is that POWERLIFTERS rarely train to failure on exercises such as the "Bench Press" and "Deadlift." But BODYBUILDERS train to failure often and should avoid both of these exercises because of that fact. Again I feel it's the intensity level used with those particular exercises that can really break you.


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## kcoleman (Apr 20, 2006)

"I will stick with my beliefs as well, and that belief is that POWERLIFTERS rarely train to failure on exercises such as the "Bench Press" and "Deadlift." But BODYBUILDERS train to failure often and should avoid both of these exercises because of that fact. Again I feel it's the intensity level used with those particular exercises that can really break you."

Are you saying bodybuilders should avoid bench press and deadlifts completely or just avoid training to failure on these 2 exercises? bench press and deads are a staple in my routine


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## JordanMang (Apr 20, 2006)

Just throwing in my 2 cents worth but if I can get a back like P-funks I'll take his advice anyday.  Obviously their's a risk, I mean you're trying to do something for yourself that could intale pain if you aren't careful...you saying to not do deadlifts is like saying "Don't drive a car - because you may have a car crash!". It's a obvious risk, and most people are willing to take it ( infact 94% of Americans do everyday ). So we get what you're saying, but your argument is lacking a bit..


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## IRON MAN (Apr 20, 2006)

kcoleman said:
			
		

> "I will stick with my beliefs as well, and that belief is that POWERLIFTERS rarely train to failure on exercises such as the "Bench Press" and "Deadlift." But BODYBUILDERS train to failure often and should avoid both of these exercises because of that fact. Again I feel it's the intensity level used with those particular exercises that can really break you."
> 
> Are you saying bodybuilders should avoid bench press and deadlifts completely or just avoid training to failure on these 2 exercises? bench press and deads are a staple in my routine



I am of the belief that bodybuilders should train to failure or just a rep shy inorder to gain maximum muscle mass. In addition bodybuilders train with more overall reps causing wear and tear over a period of time. So yes I believe bodybuilders should avoid the BARBELL BENCH PRESS and DEADLIFTS for that reason. I see no value in performing these 2 exercises from a bodybuilders perspective. If you do use them I would not train to failure.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 20, 2006)

JordanMang said:
			
		

> Just throwing in my 2 cents worth but if I can get a back like P-funks I'll take his advice anyday.  Obviously their's a risk, I mean you're trying to do something for yourself that could intale pain if you aren't careful...you saying to not do deadlifts is like saying "Don't drive a car - because you may have a car crash!". It's a obvious risk, and most people are willing to take it ( infact 94% of Americans do everyday ). So we get what you're saying, but your argument is lacking a bit..



P-FUNK has a nice back but many of us who do not use deadlifts also have outstanding back development. 

Driving a car is a necessity. Doing Deadlifts and Barbell Bench Presses are not!!!


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## JordanMang (Apr 20, 2006)

I'm confused - since when have cars ever been necessary? You have feet, you have legs ( hopefully strong ones if you're posting here ), bycicles, air planes, helicopters, boats, trains, and those are just mechnical means of transportation besides cars...


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## kcoleman (Apr 20, 2006)

I train to positive failure on barbell bench but not with deadlifts.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 20, 2006)

kcoleman said:
			
		

> I train to positive failure on barbell bench but not with deadlifts.



I would go with a 15% incline or decline press if your wanting to gain more chest size without injurying your rotator cuffs. The flat bench press places a great amount of force on the pec tendon when training to failure.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 20, 2006)

JordanMang said:
			
		

> I'm confused - since when have cars ever been necessary? You have feet, you have legs ( hopefully strong ones if you're posting here ), bycicles, air planes, helicopters, boats, trains, and those are just mechnical means of transportation besides cars...




I see..And I quess you grow your own food instead of going to the grocery store..


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## CowPimp (Apr 20, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> GOOD MORNINGS??? Are you joking??? That exercise put my good friend out of training for over 5 years. The guy had 7 major lower back surgeries due to that stupid exercise. Good Mornings are  worse than the Back Extension machine. I strongly urge you and  everyone else on this board to shun Good Mornings. That exercise can cripple you in a blink of an eye!!!  Weighted back extensions and crunches will suffice. Just give it a try and see for yourself.



I don't have my clients do good mornings.  That isn't a risk I'm willing to take, although it would probably be fine with pretty light weights for certain people.  However, there is no way you can compare back extensions to good mornings.  I do hyperextensions and reverse hyperextensions, and they don't hold a candle to good mornings.  Good mornings have possibly been the most productive exercise I have ever done in terms of developing my posterior chain.


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## kcoleman (Apr 20, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> I would go with a 15% incline or decline press if your wanting to gain more chest size without injurying your rotator cuffs. The flat bench press places a great amount of force on the pec tendon when training to failure.



Thanks for the suggestion. I have barely trained incline or decline so it will be a big ego hit to switch to either one of them from flat pressing, a movement I have trained alot and made significant progress in.


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## Brutus_G (Apr 20, 2006)

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=270spine2
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=271spine2
SM: Yes???from several perspectives. When you look at the mechanisms of injury???let???s take for example a herniated disk???if a person maintains a neutral spine, as would an Olympic weight lifter for example, it???s very difficult to create a herniated disk. In contrast, in powerlifting some of the folks repeatedly flex their spine, and repeated full flexion with spinal compression is the mechanism to create a herniated disk. 

Here is an example of where a muscle physiologist might tell you "Yes, you???ve got to work the spine through a full range of motion," but if you do it under load you risk replicating the disk herniating mechanism. So the training becomes a damaging routine accumulating microtrauma rather than continuous tissue enhancement and improved performance motor patterning. 

Another vital fact is that under pure compression loads, and when the spine is fully flexed, we???ve measured the spine losing up to 40% of its ability to bear compressive loads. In other words the spine is strongest when in a neutral position. 

Also among the misperceptions that I hear out there about the rectus abdominis, and upper vs. lower abdominals, is that you???ve got to work the rectus throughout its range of motion. Again these might be muscle physiologists speaking but not people who are cognizant of spinal mechanics. For example, when you look at the architecture of the rectus, it???s a muscle with four heads, four contractile components each separated by a lateral tendon. 

If it was a muscle designed to work through its full range of motion it would be one long continuous muscle???but it???s not. It anchors the obliques and transmits the hoop stresses laterally through those lateral tendons. If it wasn???t beaded, the oblique forces would rip it apart laterally. In many elite performances the abdominals contract isometrically. Too many bad backs are created by misinformed people thinking they need to train the rectus with repeated full flexion exercises. There are much better and safer ways to do this. 

So again if we???re training athletes to perform, the question is do they need to work the lumbar spine through a full range of motion? Lumbar flexibility often increases the risk of future chronicity! For example, I???ve worked with some very good discus throwers and you???d think that discus throwing would require a huge amount of twist in someone???s back. In fact, if you take the twist out of the training, stabilize and lock the ribcage onto the pelvis, and twist through the legs and shoulders, you may actually enhance performance. Certainly it may be required to reduce back symptoms. 

Other performance requirements include variables like speed, agility and/or strength for example; all three of these things require stability, perhaps keeping a line of drive down the torso and through the feet into the ground, etc. A stiffened core may be optimal. So, of course this whole issue depends on the person and the task. But in many cases from both performance and safety perspectives, it???s a bit of a myth that the spine needs to be trained through its range of motion. 

I hope this helps he goes into great detail about everything discussed. It appears your both right on several points.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 21, 2006)

Brutus_G said:
			
		

> http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=270spine2
> http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=271spine2
> SM: Yes???from several perspectives. When you look at the mechanisms of injury???let???s take for example a herniated disk???if a person maintains a neutral spine, as would an Olympic weight lifter for example, it???s very difficult to create a herniated disk. In contrast, in powerlifting some of the folks repeatedly flex their spine, and repeated full flexion with spinal compression is the mechanism to create a herniated disk.
> 
> ...



I agree with this article in terms of lower back and ab training.

 A lot of trainers have come to the realization that training abs can produce back problems. Disk ruptures have occured using certain abdominal exercises such as the full range sit up and reverse sit-up. Thats why I have my clients use cruches and reverse crunches for abs.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 21, 2006)

kcoleman said:
			
		

> Thanks for the suggestion. I have barely trained incline or decline so it will be a big ego hit to switch to either one of them from flat pressing, a movement I have trained alot and made significant progress in.



Flat bench is definetly an EGO lift..


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## gopro (Apr 21, 2006)

I am done with this debate. I have no time for this really. You are a nice guy IRON MAN, and I have no problem with you. I just completely disagree with you and your perspective on many aspect of lifting (as I am slowly beginning to see). If you do well and your clients do well, then I wish more power to you. Thats all.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 22, 2006)

gopro said:
			
		

> I am done with this debate. I have no time for this really. You are a nice guy IRON MAN, and I have no problem with you. I just completely disagree with you and your perspective on many aspect of lifting (as I am slowly beginning to see). If you do well and your clients do well, then I wish more power to you. Thats all.



It would be a boring life if we all believed the same way. Most of what I have learned is from time spent in the gym and by observing others. Theres thousands of articles saying to do this exercise and don't use this one, etc, etc but if I experience something that does not agree with a particular article written down on paper, I will dis-regard it and go by what does work best. For e.g. some articles teach to do wrist curls and reverse wrist curls to re-hab a weak wrist inorder to prevent carpal tunnel syndrome. But for some it's those very exercises that brings forth further damage. I compare deadlifts to wrist curls when taken to momentary muscular failure but again it does not apply to everyone. But the question at hand is " CAN deadlifts do permanent damage to the lower back"??? According to my experience and the starter of this thread the answer is YES!!!   


 I think it all boils down to what our personal experiences have been. It's not always a matter of who's right and who's wrong. I think many apsects of life fall into that category.

Thanks for the time you spent in this long drawn out debate and we will have to agree to disagree on this subject matter and move on.

 Thank you for displaying a "Professional Attitude" throughout.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 22, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> I don't have my clients do good mornings.  That isn't a risk I'm willing to take, although it would probably be fine with pretty light weights for certain people.  However, there is no way you can compare back extensions to good mornings.  I do hyperextensions and reverse hyperextensions, and they don't hold a candle to good mornings.  Good mornings have possibly been the most productive exercise I have ever done in terms of developing my posterior chain.



I'm with P-FUNK on this one because this movement-Good Mornings mimics the "Back Extension Machines" P-FUNK is against. I think deadlifts done with less weight and low intensity work would be a better choice. I can't imagine myself doing an exercise I would not feel comfortable having my clients do. Either way be safe.


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## CowPimp (Apr 22, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> I'm with P-FUNK on this one because this movement-Good Mornings mimics the "Back Extension Machines" P-FUNK is against. I think deadlifts done with less weight and low intensity work would be a better choice. I can't imagine myself doing an exercise I would not feel comfortable having my clients do. Either way be safe.



This is not at all like a back extension machine.  Your back stays extended the entire duration of the movement.  I'm against round back good mornings, although some people do those too.  Good mornings should be virtually all hip extension.  In fact, a good morning should be virtually equivalent to an SLDL except that there is direct loading on your spine due to the placement of the bar.

Also, I do plenty of movements that my clients don't.  If I had a client who was a powerlifter, had no history of back problems, and displayed exceptional form on a variety of other exercises, then I might have him perform this movement.  However, for your average fat ass looking to lose weight it isn't needed for balance.  I pick deadlift variations as a safer alternative that still allows for development of the posterior chain and balance among the anterior musculature of the body.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 22, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> This is not at all like a back extension machine.  Your back stays extended the entire duration of the movement.  I'm against round back good mornings, although some people do those too.  Good mornings should be virtually all hip extension.  In fact, a good morning should be virtually equivalent to an SLDL except that there is direct loading on your spine due to the placement of the bar.
> 
> Also, I do plenty of movements that my clients don't.  If I had a client who was a powerlifter, had no history of back problems, and displayed exceptional form on a variety of other exercises, then I might have him perform this movement.  However, for your average fat ass looking to lose weight it isn't needed for balance.  I pick deadlift variations as a safer alternative that still allows for development of the posterior chain and balance among the anterior musculature of the body.



Cool..We agree that deadlifts are safer than goodmornings.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 22, 2006)

An article I found that falls in line with my beliefs. But I feel the rounding of the lower back during the deadlift movement tends to occur more often when lifting to complete muscular failure.



The deadlift exercise is effective for strengthening the hamstrings and buttocks. However, many bodybuilders and athletes erroneously use this exercise to target the erector spinae muscles of the lower back by rounding the spine as much as possible on the down phase. As a result, the straight leg or bent knee deadlift can become quite dangerous. 

When you bend over and round the spine as you lower the trunk to the horizontal position the forces acting on the spine are compounded greatly. In addition, when bending over with a rounded spine the erector muscles do not counteract the forces generated in the spine. As a result, you can easily over-stretch the strong ligaments that hold the lumbar spine in place and limit the amount of flexion. Because of the high forces acting on only a small portion of the spinal discs and vertebrae, other injuries such as disc ruptures may occur. In fact, bending over and lifting a weight with a rounded back is one of the most common causes of low back injury! 

The exercise is much safer if you have sufficient flexibility in the hip joints and good strength of the lower back erector spinae muscles to maintain the normal s-curve of the spine during the down and up actions. To most effectively strengthen the erector spinae do back extensions, the best exercise to work the lower back muscles through their entire range of motion.


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## P-funk (Apr 22, 2006)

source?


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## CowPimp (Apr 22, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> source?



It came straight from MrBiceps.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 22, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> It came straight from MrBiceps.



LOL...


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## IRON MAN (Apr 22, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> source?



I think it was written by Fred Hatfield.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 22, 2006)

*Question!!!*

Since muscle balance between the abs and lower back is so important, and various forms of weighted crunches are sufficient for building the front side of the spine, why do some of you feel that the antagonist movement for the crunch-" weighted back extensions", is not enough to build the back side of the spine?

I don't get it???


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## P-funk (Apr 23, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> Since muscle balance between the abs and lower back is so important, and various forms of weighted crunches are sufficient for building the front side of the spine, why do some of you feel that the antagonist movement for the crunch-" weighted back extensions", is not enough to build the back side of the spine?
> 
> I don't get it???




unless a person absolutely needs to be doing crunching movements (like they are really really weak and deconditioned), I try and shy away from them because of the reason you gave before...pressure on the lower back if the crunch is carried out through to great of an ROM (ie, closer to a sit up).  Sometimes the exercise just seems like a way to hurt yourself.  

For most people, as far as "core" is concerned, I do a lot of stabilization things like planks or bird dogs, holding for time etc...to work on that.  I also do hyperextensions on the hyper bench with static holds at the top to teach them how to stabilize themselves.  Other then that, they are going to get abdominal work through the entire session, just doing exercises.

I was talking about a hip extension movement which off sets quad dominant movents.  the hyper bench can be set up to hip the hip extensors but the amount of load is no where near that of what people can squat so you still could be setting yourself up for a potential muscle imbalance. that was what i was asking you about.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 23, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> unless a person absolutely needs to be doing crunching movements (like they are really really weak and deconditioned), I try and shy away from them because of the reason you gave before...pressure on the lower back if the crunch is carried out through to great of an ROM (ie, closer to a sit up).  Sometimes the exercise just seems like a way to hurt yourself.
> 
> For most people, as far as "core" is concerned, I do a lot of stabilization things like planks or bird dogs, holding for time etc...to work on that.  I also do hyperextensions on the hyper bench with static holds at the top to teach them how to stabilize themselves.  Other then that, they are going to get abdominal work through the entire session, just doing exercises.
> 
> I was talking about a hip extension movement which off sets quad dominant movents.  the hyper bench can be set up to hip the hip extensors but the amount of load is no where near that of what people can squat so you still could be setting yourself up for a potential muscle imbalance. that was what i was asking you about.



I see now..I'm of the opinion that the muscles of the lower back will always over-power the abs "regardless".

Great idea you have with static holds!!!  I also use weighted static holds on hyper/back-extrensions. Works very well for strengthening the neck muscles because working through a full range of movement can wreak havoc on the cervical spine. 

*Note:* The idea of working an exercise through it's full range of motion inorder to increase flexibility isn't always what it cracked up to be. For e.g.; "Impingment Syndrome" can occur to the supraspinatus tendon when doing lateral raise above the level position even though impingment of the shoulder generally occurs in activities that require the arm to be abducted or flexed and medially rotated, as when throwing a baseball. Not allowing the dumbells to travel above the level position may limit shoulder joint flexibility, but it can prevent rotator cuff injuries. I believe the same theroy holds true  with doing damage to the spinal disc. GO-PRO stated lifting with twisting motion is usually what cause a disc to herniate and I agree. But doing deadlifts with a full range of motion can also be hard on the lower back. As with the lateral raise, deadlifting with a full range of motion might increase flexibilty of the spine but it will also increase the risk of injury to that area. I believe the same holds true with such as exercises as flyes, flat bench press, squats, preacher curls, press behind the neck, vertical leg press and crunches.


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## CowPimp (Apr 23, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> I see now..I'm of the opinion that the muscles of the lower back will always over-power the abs "regardless".
> 
> Great idea you have with static holds!!!  I also use weighted static holds on hyper/back-extrensions. Works very well for strengthening the neck muscles because working through a full range of movement can wreak havoc on the cervical spine.
> 
> *Note:* The idea of working an exercise through it's full range of motion inorder to increase flexibility isn't always what it cracked up to be. For e.g.; "Impingment Syndrome" can occur to the supraspinatus tendon when doing lateral raise above the level position even though impingment of the shoulder generally occurs in activities that require the arm to be abducted or flexed and medially rotated, as when throwing a baseball. Not allowing the dumbells to travel above the level position may limit shoulder joint flexibility, but it can prevent rotator cuff injuries. I believe the same theroy holds true  with doing damage to the spinal disc. GO-PRO stated lifting with twisting motion is usually what cause a disc to herniate and I agree. But doing deadlifts with a full range of motion can also be hard on the lower back. As with the lateral raise, deadlifting with a full range of motion might increase flexibilty of the spine but it will also increase the risk of injury to that area. I believe the same holds true with such as exercises as flyes, flat bench press, squats, preacher curls, press behind the neck, vertical leg press and crunches.



That still doesn't really answer the question...


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## IRON MAN (Apr 23, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> That still doesn't really answer the question...




When I recieve a client who might have a possible muscle imbalance with quad dominant movements-( torso is bent forward less than 45% during the movement), the first thing I do is make sure they are keeping their backs arched and have them push their knees outward during the negative portion of the squat to keep the stress off the knees and lower back. The negative is the most dangerous portion of the movement!!!


The 1st hip "EXTENSION" exercise I would use are weighted hypers along with additional helpers such as leg curls, leg extensions,and weighted back extensions. "If that does not solve the problem," I will resort to using Rack Pulls/Romaninan deadlifts to build up the (hamstrings/glutes), but I do not use Standard or Stiff Legged Deadlifts with "BODYBUILDERS" for this purpose because they can round the back at the bottom of the movement, WHEN TRAINING TO FAILURE!!!   I avoid having them train to failure with Rack pulls as it's very demanding and can disrupt the breathing process during the negative portion of the lift taking pressure off the abdominal wall creating extra pressure on the lower back. 

*Note: I cannot stress enough how important it is to avoid training to absolute muscular failure on a "Frequent Basis" with any form of deadlifts. *


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## P-funk (Apr 23, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> When I recieve a client who might have a possible muscle imbalance with quad dominant movements-( torso is bent forward less than 45% during the movement), the first thing I do is make sure they are keeping their backs arched and have them push their knees outward during the negative portion of the squat to keep the stress off the knees and lower back. The negative is the most dangerous portion of the movement!!!





I am going to disagree with this.....big time!

If a person is imbalanced and hip dominant and displaying an anterior pelvic tilt like you are describing the last thing on earth I would ahve them do is squat!  The severe tilt is indicative of tight/over active hip flexors, weak abdominals and usually follwed up with weak glutes and sometimes hamstring which display synergistic dominance to off set the glute problem.  this causes an enourmous tug on the pelvis, opening the lower back up to all sorts of pressure.

Pushing their knees out on a squat is a great way to activate the glultes but that still doesn't cut it....especially if the hamstrings are firing improperly to overcompensate for the weakness.

I would do abdominal work, stabilization work and I would have them do glute activation work (bridging etc...).  I would lay off of the squatting or hip dominant movements at first to try and correct the imbalance rather then make it worse.


Also, the negative portion of the squat is not the most dangerous part of the exercise at all.  OUr eccentric strength over powers our concentric strength so much that one can usually eccentrically decelerate 110-130% more then their concentric strength.  It is when the person tries to apply force that their form typically breaks down.





> The 1st hip flexor exercise I would use are weighted hypers along with additional helpers such as leg curls, leg extensions,and weighted back extensions. "If that does not solve the problem," I will resort to using Rack Pulls/Romaninan deadlifts to build up the (hamstrings/glutes), but I do not use Standard or Stiff Legged Deadlifts with "BODYBUILDERS" for this purpose because they can round the back at the bottom of the movement, WHEN TRAINING TO FAILURE!!!   I avoid having them train to failure with Rack pulls as it's very demanding and can disrupt the breathing process during the negative portion of the lift taking pressure off the abdominal wall creating extra pressure on the lower back.
> 
> *Note: I cannot stress enough how important it is to avoid training to absolute muscular failure on a "Frequent Basis" with any form of deadlifts. *



Hypers ARE NOT  a hip flexor exercise! they work the hip extensors (glutes and hammies).

leg curls work the hamstrings and gastroc at the knee joint....not at the hip.  working them at the knee is couter productive in this case because the person is already synergytically dominant in that area.  they need glulte strength.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 23, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> I am going to disagree with this.....big time!
> 
> If a person is imbalanced and hip dominant and displaying an anterior pelvic tilt like you are describing the last thing on earth I would ahve them do is squat!  The severe tilt is indicative of tight/over active hip flexors, weak abdominals and usually follwed up with weak glutes and sometimes hamstring which display synergistic dominance to off set the glute problem.  this causes an enourmous tug on the pelvis, opening the lower back up to all sorts of pressure.
> 
> ...



I meant hip extension not flexion and of course leg curls and leg extensions are not hip dominant exercises. Surely you knew I meant here??? To qualify as one, there has to be movement at the hip joint, and the leg curls simply do not do this, making them a very poor choice for balancing the strength levels between the two main sections of the upper leg but they do balance out the knees and your first question related to the knees so I answered both question with one answer!!!  

*NOTE: Deadlifts are eqivalent to Squats in terms of being "QUAD DOMINANT" and that's why Louie Simmons recommends BOX SQUATS as an assistor. The RMDL has to be properly executed to get the desired effect.  *  

One of the most effective, most overlooked, and on the rare occasion it is performed, most poorly executed exercises for this purpose is the Romanian Deadlift.


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## P-funk (Apr 23, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> I meant hip extension not flexion and of course leg curls and leg extensions are not hip dominant exercises. Surely you knew I meant here??? To qualify as one, there has to be movement at the hip joint, and the leg curls simply do not do this, making them a very poor choice for balancing the strength levels between the two main sections of the upper leg but they do balance out the knees and your first question related to the knees so I answered both question with one answer!!!
> 
> *NOTE: Deadlifts are eqivalent to Squats in terms of being "QUAD DOMINANT" and that's why Louie Simmons recommends BOX SQUATS as an assistor. The RMDL has to be properly executed to get the desired effect.  *
> 
> One of the most effective, most overlooked, and on the rare occasion it is performed, most poorly executed exercises for this purpose is the Romanian Deadlift (R




thaks for your NOTE.  I know what Louie Simmons said.  I have read a shit ton of his articles.  If your quads are thea weakest link you should squat to a parallel box to work on that lock out...but the main muscles of the squat ARE THE HIPS meaning hip flexors), GLUTES, LOWER BACK and hamstrings.

read and learn:

I will bold the part you should read...



> Box Squatting By: Louie Simmons
> 
> 
> Box squatting is the most effective method to produce a first-rate squat. This is, in my opinion, the safest way to squat because you don't use as much weight as you would with a regular squat.
> ...



here is another article...I will again bold what is said....



> By: Louie Simmons
> How to Do the Squat
> 
> 
> ...


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## P-funk (Apr 23, 2006)

On another side note, why would you teach anyone to squat that wide if you are training them?  it puts tremendous pressure on the hips.  I am not a fan of it at all for the general population.  It puts a great deal of strain on the lumbar spine.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 23, 2006)

*How to do the RDL!!!*

How To Perform (Romanian Deadlifts/Rack Pulls) 

Set the racks in a power rack to just about knee level there is no need for safety rods if you lose control during a lift but they can be used and are recommended. Set a standard Olympic bar on the rack, Walk up, squat down slightly while maintaining a small curve in the lower back, grasp the bar, and stand back up. You want your hands to be shoulder width apart, perhaps slightly wider if you find it to be more comfortable. Take a few steps back, and set yourself for the exercise. Being set includes making sure your feet are shoulder width apart, your chest is up, your lower back has a slight curve in it, and your knees are slightly bent (not locked). Once set you're ready to start the exercise. 

Start by tightening your core musculature (abs and lower back) to ensure a secure spine. Keeping the bar close in to your body (it should maintain slight contact with the body at all times) start to bend at the hips, taking care that the lower back does not move. 

 The lower back should not loose its natural s curve at any time during the movement. Loosing this curve and bending or even straitening the lower back will put your lower back in a position to become injured. Practice with a light weight until you can bend over at the "hips" without bending the "lower back." 

As you descend, the butt should move back ever so slightly and you should feel a stretch in the "leg bicep". Visualize it as a hamstring stretch with no lower back movement. Most people will find that they can safely bring the bar down to around "knee level" before their (lower back begins to straighten to the "DANGER ZONE"). 



At the point right before you reach the limit of your hamstring range of motion you should stop and then slowly reverse the movement, taking care to keep the bar in close and maintaining a safe lower back position. Towards the top of the movement really force the hips through by squeezing the glutes.  

The biggest mistake most people will make in the execution of this exercise is not maintaining the position of their lower back. Some will even go so far as to bend all the way over till the weight touches the ground. This is a misunderstanding of this exercise and its purposes by some. It is not meant simply as a "hamstring stretch" as some beleive, nor is it meant to directly work the "lower back", although the lower back will get stronger from performing this exercise. 

In order to properly strengthen the "HIP EXTENSORS", you need to use HEAVIER WORK LOADS than what would be used for STANDARD DEADLIFTS. Such heavy weights are too dangerous for the lower back to handle in a (prime mover) or (synergistic roles). In order to derive maximum benefits from this movement, you must keep the lower back from moving and let it play a much safer role as a (stabilizer). 

*NOTE:*Rack pulls/Romanian deadlifts is a modified hyper-extension using much more weight!!!


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## IRON MAN (Apr 23, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> On another side note, why would you teach anyone to squat that wide if you are training them?  it puts tremendous pressure on the hips.  I am not a fan of it at all for the general population.  It puts a great deal of strain on the lumbar spine.



I'm not a fan of BOX-SQUAT either. I was just using Louie Simmons as an example.


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## P-funk (Apr 23, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> How To Perform (Romanian Deadlifts/Rack Pulls)
> 
> Set the racks in a power rack to just about knee level there is no need for safety rods if you lose control during a lift but they can be used. Set a standard Olympic bar on the rack, Walk up, squat down slightly while maintaining a small curve in the lower back, grasp the bar, and stand back up. You want your hands to be shoulder width apart, perhaps slightly wider if you find it to be more comfortable. Take a few steps back, and set yourself for the exercise. Being set includes making sure your feet are shoulder width apart, your chest is up, your lower back has a slight curve in it, and your knees are slightly bent (not locked). Once set you're ready to start the exercise.
> 
> ...




source??


RDLs are a great exercise.  But, they are much like doing a full deadlift in that you don't bend you knees enough to touch the floor.  I don't see how you can advocate RDLs and rack pulls but not deadlifts.  Rack pulls especially since people can pull supramaximal in relation to their full deadlift in that exercise.


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## P-funk (Apr 23, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> I'm not a fan of BOX-SQUAT either. I was just using Louie Simmons as an example.




why use something as an example if you don't believe in it?


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## IRON MAN (Apr 23, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> thaks for your NOTE.  I know what Louie Simmons said.  I have read a shit ton of his articles.  If your quads are thea weakest link you should squat to a parallel box to work on that lock out...but the main muscles of the squat ARE THE HIPS meaning hip flexors), GLUTES, LOWER BACK and hamstrings.
> 
> read and learn:
> 
> ...



 Squats do work the abs and thats why some PRO'S stop doing heavy squats-they thicken the waist line. I think we have come full circle with this debate. I'll join GO-PRO and go back over to my forum now as we seem to be wasting our time.


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## P-funk (Apr 23, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> Squats do work the abs and thats why some PRO'S stop doing heavy squats-they thicken the waist line. I think we have come full circle with this debate. I'll join GO-PRO and go back over to my forum now as we seem to be wasting our time.




who was saying that squats don't work the abs?  we are talking about the hips here.....you keep changing your mind in the middle of the discussion.



NOTE: ARGUING BIOMECHANICS WITH MORONS THAT HAVE LITTLE TO NO UNDERSTANDING OF FUNCTIONAL ANATOMY IS A WASTE OF MY SUNDAY.


you should go back to your forum (no need to bring gopro into it...he is smart and he doesn't agree with you either)......at least in oyur forum those people there still think you are smart.  In the training forum you are doing nothing more then establishing yourself as a fuck nut.


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## IRON MAN (Apr 23, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> who was saying that squats don't work the abs?  we are talking about the hips here.....you keep changing your mind in the middle of the discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You'll get your ass stomped real good in the South with that attitude you got there "boy"..

Maybe one day we can all be smart like you..Eh?:


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## P-funk (Apr 24, 2006)

IRON MAN said:
			
		

> You'll get your ass stomped real good in the South with that attitude you got there "boy"..
> 
> Maybe one day we can all be smart like you..Eh?:




please.


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