# METHYLDIENOLONE is it worth it?



## IronSlingah (Feb 22, 2004)

First of all this product is almost twice as expensive as M1T but with 85% less side effects so you could in theory run a safe cycle 85% longer than M1T and on top of that its 10% more effective than M1T.

So is it worth it?

Any other information would be appreciated.


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## QuestionGuy (Feb 22, 2004)

hmmm, i have no idea, but i am really interested on what people have to say about that so maybe i can look at that product also....


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## JerseyDevil (Feb 22, 2004)

Where did you come up with 85%?  From the two people I know that ran it, the main difference in side effects was it's lack of lethargy.  That does not mean it is safer.  It's hepatoxicity is probably at least as much as M1T, maybe more.  

In fact, methyldienolone is a very close chemical cousin to Methyltrienolone, which is said to be VERY toxic to the liver.


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## JerseyDevil (Feb 22, 2004)

Just found this on the Bulk Nutrition forum.  More good info...

Androgen Addendum
by Loki

'Methyldienolone'


The chemically-structured 'little cousin' of Methyltrienolone, one of the most potent steroids ever developed, 'MethylDienolone,' which also goes by the names 'Methyldien' & it's true, structural designation 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxyestra-4,9(10)dien-3-one, is one of the newest & most misunderstood 17-alpha-alkylated (i.e. 'methylated') androgens to have recently emerged in the PH/AAS market as of late. 

Little true data exists concerning the use of methyldienolone in humans, and-- at the moment I am writing this article-- user feedback concerning the compound simply does not exist to any significant degree. To my knowledge, at present, I am one of only a half-dozen individuals in the United States to have used methyldienolone in a cycle. Thus, for the purposes of this piece, I will be relying more on my own individual experiences/observations with the compound, rather than lab assays & its presumed anabolic:androgenic activity ratio.

Methyldienolone, for all extents & purposes, can best be thought of as a highly orally bioavailable, non-aromatizing 19-Nortestosterone derivative that boasts a very anabolic and moderately androgenic profile. Just to give you an idea, methyldienolone is only a single double-bond away from the 'ubersteroid' 17a-Methyl-17b-Hydroxyestra-4,9,11-Trien-3-one, one of the most anabolic (as well as hepatotoxic) steroids known to man.

In my own limited experience with the compound, methyldienolone is a rather singular androgen in its utter absence of effects on mood, energy levels, and SNS activity. While it is moderately androgenic (and thus has the penchant to produce any/all of the typical androgenic sides associated with PH/AAS use [acne, hair loss, prostate hypertrophy, et. al.]), methyldienolone does not appear to have any significant effect on energy levels, appetite, aggression/complacency, or cognitive capacity. Furthermore, given its close structural similarities to methyltrienolone (as well as its tremendous potency), methyldienolone is probably also the most hepatotoxic commercially-available 17aa-androgen currently. As with all 17aa-androgens, those with prior liver conditions &/or concerns in this regard should make sure they exercise the upmost caution if they choose to pursue methyldienolone for personal use. 

In terms of its anabolic capabilities, methyldienolone is, without doubt, the most potent (on a mg/mg basis), widely-available 17aa-androgen that one can currently obtain 'legally' (Author's note: Although it is important to note that the actual 'legality' of this class of compounds [re: 17aa-androgens] in compliance with the terms of DSHEA should be considered 'highly questionable' at best). As a comparison, 1mg of methyldienolone seems to be equivalent, anabolically, to ~8-12mg of 17aa-1-Testosterone (also known as Methyl-1-Test). Impressive (and often rapid) LBM gains (even in the face of a caloric deficit), marginal strength increases, and noticeable aesthetic improvements in vascularity, muscle hardness & fullness, and leanness are all facets to methyldienolone use that I have witnessed first-hand.

As a stand-alone androgen, methyldienolone should be used @ 1-3mg/day. Heavily experienced &/or much larger lifters might do better with 4-5mg/day, and I do not feel that there is any need whatsoever to exceed the 5mg/day dose-range. 750mcg-1000mcg (1mg) of methyldienolone can also be used in stacks with other androgens as well, although it is NOT recommended the use of methyldienolone in conjuction with aromatizing androgens such as 4-androstenediol (4AD) due to the potential incidence of progesterone-induced side-effects, which can negatively affect mood, skin appearance, insulin sensitivity, and vascularity, among other potentially-detrimental occurences/conditions.


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## IronSlingah (Feb 22, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by JerseyDevil *_
> Where did you come up with 85%?  From the two people I know that ran it, the main difference in side effects was it's lack of lethargy.  That does not mean it is safer.  It's hepatoxicity is probably at least as much as M1T, maybe more.
> 
> In fact, methyldienolone is a very close chemical cousin to Methyltrienolone, which is said to be VERY toxic to the liver.



I got it off kilosports and gasparinutrition it says Meth D only has 15% the side effects of M1T so its 85% less.

Product Summary
Methyldienolone is the trademarked name for the prosteroid 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxyestra-4,9(10)dien-3-one. Without a doubt, Methyldienolone is the most potent prosteroid ever developed and sold in the world to date as it is about 1.1X as anabolic as Methyl-1-Testosterone is while being only 15% as androgenic.

These characteristics allow Methyldienolone to cause the similar positive effects that Methyl-1-Testosterone users have reported with far fewer side effects. Additionally, because it is not a "1-ene" compound, the typical lethargy and mild depression found in users of Methyl-1-Testosterone and other 1-testosterone products is not present with Methyldienolone use. Due to it's fairly high Anabolic-to-Androgenic ration (A:A), the effects of Methyldienolone have been described by users as "Winstrol like" or "Winstrol Turbo" or "a hybrid between Parabolan and Winstrol".

This last comparison is right on the money as Methyldienolone is a very close chemical cousin to the most potent steroid on the planet bar none, that being methyltrenbolone (aka methyltrienolone). In fact, Methyldienolone is a close homolog of methyltrienolone, the singular difference between the two being a double bond at Carbon #11 found on methyltrienolone. So how potent is Methyldienolone? Users are recording fantastic gains in lean muscle mass and decreases in body fat with only 1-3mg per day.


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## IronSlingah (Feb 22, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by IronSlingah *_
> I got it off kilosports and gasparinutrition it says Meth D only has 15% the side effects of M1T so its 85% less.



I emailed designersupps about this and they gave me some good news heres the E-mail.


*ME* I see that some sites have METHYLDIENOLONE for sale already but it is in capsule form.
My question is if you will be selling METHYLDIENOLONE anytime soon in powder form by the gram?
Also i heard the dosage for this is 1-3mg so is there anyway to turn this into an oral solution like M1T can?

*THEM* I will have the solution ready on mon. 50 servings per bottle, 1mg per ml for $35. I will be doing the tabs in a few weeks. I will be the cheapest on the web.

Sldge


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## tomas101 (Feb 22, 2004)

this shit has me debating on whether i should buy some..its got me really curious


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## prolangtum (Feb 23, 2004)

Sledge probaly wont sell it by the powder, I got some, but Im no average dummy. Misdosing this could be dangerous, as 1-3mgs is effective, yet such a minute amount.


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## JerseyDevil (Feb 23, 2004)

I emailed Slgde also.  He said the tabs will ready in about 4 weeks.  He will have 100 count, 1 mg tabs for $45. Until then, he will have beta oral solutions, each bottle is 1mg/ml for 50ml (he told me $30).


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## ZECH (Feb 23, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by JerseyDevil *_
> I emailed Slgde also.  He said the tabs will ready in about 4 weeks.  He will have 100 count, 1 mg tabs for $45. Until then, he will have beta oral solutions, each bottle is 1mg/ml for 50ml (he told me $30).


Same thing he told me in an e-mail....


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## prolangtum (Feb 23, 2004)

its available today, the oral solution that is


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## IronSlingah (Feb 23, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Same thing he told me in an e-mail....


Did he lower it to 30$?
I asked on friday and he said 35$


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## ZECH (Feb 23, 2004)

Don't know but that is what the e-mail said...........


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## JerseyDevil (Feb 23, 2004)

You know when you think about it.... to run a methyldienolone cycle from Designer Supps won't cost that much more then the Underground Labs deal.

For instance, I ran my last M1T cycle for 4 weeks @ 30 mg per day.  One bottle of UL M1T is 60 count, 5 mg tabs.  It would take three bottles at $10 each to run this cycle, so $30. You don't have to stack with 4AD, but doing so greatly reduces the lethargy. I stacked with 4Derm, so my total cost for a 4 week cycle was $70. 

Running 3 mg each day of methyldienolone is roughly equal to 30 mg of M1T each day (see Prohormone FAQ).  So one bottle of DesignerSupps 100 count, 1 mg tabs will cover a 4 week cycle.  Total cost $45.  Since there is no lethargy associated with this product, 4AD isn't really needed, and in fact is not recommended due to possible progesterone-induced side effects.  So depending on how you look at it,  m dien may actually be cheaper overall.


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## Twin Peak (Feb 23, 2004)

The only two people that I know that have run this are Prolangtum and Loki, and both love it.

I got my oral solution from Sledge last week, and I started running it at 4mg today.


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## JerseyDevil (Feb 23, 2004)

...and if you get good results with it, we KNOW its a winner!


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## Twin Peak (Feb 23, 2004)

Yeah, pretty much.  

M1,4 did very little for me in two weeks.


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## JerseyDevil (Feb 23, 2004)

Yeah I know you don't respond well to most compounds.  Have you tried M5AA?


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## Twin Peak (Feb 23, 2004)

No.


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## ZECH (Feb 23, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Yeah, pretty much.
> 
> M1,4 did very little for me in two weeks.


I was never a fan of 1,4. Did nothing for me except maybe make me a little hungrier. So I wouldn't expect much out of M1,4 either.


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## rrgg (Feb 25, 2004)

Liver Toxicity & Androgrenic Side Effects

That Loki article doesn't make it clear how toxic MethylDienolone.  Where does this sit when compared to the toxicity of M1T and other prohormones, steroids, and synthetic testosterone (OTC or not)?  Guesses?

The author also says there's a "penchant" for hair loss/acne, but apparently didn't experience those side effects.  If side effects are 85% less than M1T, that doesn't seem like much at all.  Do others agree with this deduction?   Thanks.


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## rrgg (Mar 11, 2004)

*Can we get this before the banning starts?*

FDA to Crack Down on Supplement Andro

By LAURAN NEERGAARD, AP Medical Writer

WASHINGTON - The government will crack down on the steroid-like supplement made famous by baseball's Mark McGwire, telling companies Thursday to quit selling androstenedione unless they can prove it's not dangerous.

Commonly called andro, the product is a steroid precursor ??? the body uses it to make testosterone.

That means it poses the same health risks as directly using an anabolic steroid, the Food and Drug Administration (news - web sites) is expected to say in warnings telling 23 manufacturers to cease their production.

Anabolic steroids, which build muscle, are controlled substances. But andro ??? because it is a precursor, not the steroid itself ??? has long been marketed as a dietary supplement, selling over the counter. U.S. law lets dietary supplements sell with little oversight to ensure they're safe.

But the FDA is citing a seldom-used provision of that law that defines as a dietary supplement natural ingredients that were on the market before 1994 ??? and says manufacturers must prove that any new ingredients are safe before selling them as supplements.

Andro wasn't on the market in 1994 and thus its makers failed to follow the law's safety provision, said a spokesman for the Department of Health and Human Services (news - web sites).

The FDA expects its action to at least temporarily halt andro sales. Meanwhile, Congress is considering legislation sponsored by Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., that would permanently end over-the-counter sales of andro, as well as a new steroid named THG, and subject them to the same prescription restrictions as apply to anabolic steroids.

Andro's use skyrocketed after McGwire said he used it in 1998, the year he hit a record-setting 70 home runs for the St. Louis Cardinals. He has said he later quit the supplements.

Medical studies show andro does raise testosterone above normal levels. Side effects of elevated testosterone include acne, baldness, and a drop in the so-called good cholesterol that could lead to heart disease.

Critics are especially concerned about andro's effects if taken by children while they're undergoing puberty.


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## topolo (Mar 11, 2004)

tp what are you going to use for pct?


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## mousie (Mar 11, 2004)

Has anyone heard of any females taking it?  I found one article in Muscular Development magazine about a woman taking a quarter of a pill a day (.25 milligrams).  She had significant gains (-5% body fat in a month), and didn't see any manly changes in her body.  I've never taken steriods or anything like this, but I'm thinking about trying the same dosage.  Any ideas?  I'm just worried about turning into a man!


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## nikegurl (Mar 16, 2004)

did the article say how long she took it?


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## elitist (Apr 3, 2004)

I'm running 3mg. a day, and at my 3rd day in...the shit is already fucking showing signs!  The fat on my stomach is receding phenominally quickly, and im hard as hell all over. After I hit back, my lats are popping like never before. I kid you not. This stuff works. I'm planning on going on 6 -OXO, ecdysterone, and vitrix for pct, and everythings going good so far!


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## rrgg (Apr 3, 2004)

Ummm... I didn't think you could see noticable 3-day results on real juice ?


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## David Tolson (Apr 4, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by JerseyDevil *_
> Where did you come up with 85%?  From the two people I know that ran it, the main difference in side effects was it's lack of lethargy.  That does not mean it is safer.  It's hepatoxicity is probably at least as much as M1T, maybe more.
> 
> In fact, methyldienolone is a very close chemical cousin to Methyltrienolone, which is said to be VERY toxic to the liver.



Well, figures like that usually don't take into account the relative anabolic potency of the compound - so while it is much more toxic on a per mg basis, it is also much more effective on a per mg basis. As far as I know the liver toxicity of this compound relative to other methyls is still up in the air.


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## David Tolson (Apr 4, 2004)

Another thing, 85% less side effects, as far as I can tell that is a completely arbitrary number.


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## mikeb (Apr 4, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by IronSlingah *_
> First of all this product is almost twice as expensive as M1T but with 85% less side effects so you could in theory run a safe cycle 85% longer than M1T and on top of that its 10% more effective than M1T.
> 
> So is it worth it?
> ...



Where are you paying TWICE as much?  We have M1T 10mg tabs, 80 count for just over $44.  Gaspari Methy-D at about $49.
Not sure if it's "85%" safer but overall, results from people are good.


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## mousie (Apr 4, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by elitist *_
> I'm running 3mg. a day, and at my 3rd day in...the shit is already fucking showing signs!  The fat on my stomach is receding phenominally quickly, and im hard as hell all over. After I hit back, my lats are popping like never before. I kid you not. This stuff works. I'm planning on going on 6 -OXO, ecdysterone, and vitrix for pct, and everythings going good so far!



I'm with you on this!  I'm a female and even with my first week of taking Methyl-D, my muscles have already become bigger and harder!  I'm only taking .50 mgs a day!


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## David Tolson (Apr 6, 2004)

If I recall correctly, methyldienolone??? is more androgenic relative to anabolic potency than M1T. Of course, M1T isn't very androgenic either. In practice, methyldienolone??? has proven to have much less side effects (primarily the psychological ones), at least from feedback. But I really don't know where the number 85% came from.


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## maze (Apr 11, 2004)

Bulknutrition is having a presale right now, shipping April 19 2004


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## elitist (Apr 12, 2004)

I'll tell you....regardless of the good or bad you all have heard about this supp., I am seeing real results, and could not be happier.  My stomach continues to slowly tone, and My kcals are still way up! This compound is making my goal of both losing the bf, and beefing up a bit at the same time a reality. Sides? Not for me. My skin has actually cleared up! This is truly the next generation of pro-anabolic agents on the market. My arms are finally starting to grow again, and I am hungry....very hungry. I want it. It's within striking distance. I can taste it. Of course after the bottles gone, I'll come off.....but I'll be back.  Mos def. Mousie, I would say jump your dose to 1mg. if you want to go for everything. I would definitely say sides should not be an issue. But don't go any higher, for sure. 1mg. will get you nasty!


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## elitist (Apr 12, 2004)

Oh, and Mr. Tolsen, you recalled incorrectly, I have read the literature, and it clearly states over and over that methyl-D is approximately 50% as androgenic as M1T (M1T already having a respectably  high anabolic to androgenic ratio), so really, besides the liver toxicity, there is not much one can say negatively about this supplement.  Take milk thistle, NAC, and r-ALA, and you will be A-OK. 'nuff said.  Out 5000.


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## rrgg (Apr 12, 2004)

So now methyl-D actually clears up acne?  Will it also whiten my teeth?  I heard it's good as a floor polish.  Is there anything this supplement can't do?  

Elitist, are you still taking 3mg per day? 


P.S. I'm having trouble finding basic info on Methyl-4OHN.  Does this product convert to deca?  
Thanks.


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## elitist (Apr 12, 2004)

....(sigh) people always have to pop shit. Dude, get off me. My skin is clearing up. what the fuck you want?!??  Shall I say all the negative things people always say? Shall I say that my skin looks horrible because thats accepted outcome of androgens, even though it is much clearer since I've been on?. Who the fuck ever said IT was clearing up my skin? I said my skin had cleared up. "OBSERVATION"  You're sorry bro. Now go. just go.


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## rrgg (Apr 12, 2004)

Hey, I was only joking around.  You missed the smiley.  Sorry dude.


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## elitist (Apr 12, 2004)

no, I'm the one who's sorry. I'm just ragin' is all.....j/k.....no, but seriosly, the idea that the oral is clearing my skin, is simply ludicrous I know.and I'm definitely not saying it's responsible,but still.....I must note the marked improvement in my complexion.....oh yeah, and my hair is growing back in where I was losing it....j/p.....peace.


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## topolo (Apr 12, 2004)

what brand are you using and where did you get it?


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## elitist (Apr 12, 2004)

I went to kilosports....bottle does seem a bit generic, but hey, this is the site Kneller himself recomended people to. (Kneller being the patent holder on the brand name Methyldienolone). From what I'm getting so far from these perticular ones though, I will never stray from KS. It's a quality product, to be sure.


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## elitist (Apr 12, 2004)

Anyways....yea....I got a slight nosebleed today went I maxed out in the power rack. Guess you could say that's due to the methyl-D? I unno. I had only read about them occuring from M1T, but I guess it can happen with this as well. I am very particular about what I put in my body, and what effect it has on me, so I am not thrilled at the bleeding, but hey, I'll live.


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## rrgg (Apr 13, 2004)

I noticed that KiloSports is $70 and designersupp and another one are $25 and $26.

Do you know more about why Kneller recommends KiloSports?   I can understand some inflation in the price, but that's almost 300%.


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## ZECH (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by rrgg *_
> I noticed that KiloSports is $70 and designersupp and another one are $25 and $26.
> 
> Do you know more about why Kneller recommends KiloSports?   I can understand some inflation in the price, but that's almost 300%.


He has the patent on it and they carry his version.


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## rrgg (Apr 13, 2004)

dg806 - I'm confused.  If it's patented, are you saying the other two companies are selling something that's not Methyl-Dien?


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 13, 2004)

They are not allowed to call it Methyldienelone on the bottle unless they pay him royalties.  I believe this is why KS is more expensive while the others call it something else.


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## topolo (Apr 13, 2004)

so is the other stuff any good?????????


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## rrgg (Apr 13, 2004)

>They are not allowed to call it Methyldienelone 
>on the bottle unless they pay him royalties. I 
>believe this is why KS is more expensive while 
>the others call it something else.

That sounds like a trademark or copyright on a brand name, not a patent.  If that's the case, then the other products are the same thing with a different brand name. 

Is that right?


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## elitist (Apr 13, 2004)

No, you're right rr. The patent(the term Kneller himself used) is on the brand name. So in theory, Gaspari, and all the others should have identical prods......Hey guys, all I know, is that compared to the price of a "legit" on cycle, $70 is nothing to flinch at. Find another stand alone that cheap, and I will be silenced. I mean, you're talking 30 days at the max dose for 70 beans. I'm not going to someone selling beta-solutions, or any other variations on this product, but hey, that's just me. I know what it's like having to pinch pennies, so do what ya feel is best. I wanted Knellers, so I paid a measly $50 more. Simple. Fuck all the dumb shit. Yanno?


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## mousie (Apr 13, 2004)

TrojanMan gets nosebleeds all the time.


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## elitist (Apr 13, 2004)

not from methyl-D tho......right?


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## mousie (Apr 13, 2004)

Who knows


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## rrgg (Apr 13, 2004)

Hmm... I see your point elitist.  KiloSports is a good company though (and I think they've been around for quite a while). I guess it's like buying Advil or the Wal-Mart copy of it.


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## rrgg (Apr 15, 2004)

I've seen a number of methyl-d comments stating that cycles should be only 2 weeks long. 

Does anyone know why?  I think that with other (illegal) steroids, cycles are usually much longer.  Is this being done because (a) the risk of gyno and other side effects is high after 2 weeks, (b) effectiveness ends in 2 weeks, (c) risk of toxicity may be high (whether known or unknown at this time),  (d) something other reason? 

Thanks.


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## ZECH (Apr 15, 2004)

In a recent newsletter, someone taking M-dien had bloodwork done and his ALT and AST were double what they should be. That is the reason for short cycles.


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## elitist (Apr 15, 2004)

Two weeks is ludicrous to me. Although now, I must admit, I think I am starting to feel, yes thats right, feel sides instead of seeing them materialize in the common forms. I feel.....almost like...a low grade fever constantly, and something is definitely off. I can't say for sure it's the methyldienolone, but...I believe it may be. This stuff is potent no doubt. I'm thinking of going to get a check done on my enzymes just to allay any worries I may have at this point.


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## rrgg (Apr 15, 2004)

I think it's not uncommon for steroids to suppress the immune system to some degree.  Maybe you're just sick?


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## elitist (Apr 15, 2004)

No....I would think that as well....but something more feels off than what I've put into words here.....It almost feels./..like poisoning or som'n...fuk all this...I'm scheduling an appt. today to get the bloodwork. My liver should be ok. I don't drink, and the only other orals I've ever done were 1-Test, and winni, and only once for each of those, so I don't think I'm in the red zone, but still...I have this creeping feeling, that has been heightened a lot now after I read that post up there ^^ about the double baseline levels. I gotta know.  Damn...I'm glad I never fucked w/the 'drol when my bro had it.....hopefully I'm just being paranoid about all this,....hopefully.......only one way to find out tho.


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## David Tolson (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by elitist *_
> Oh, and Mr. Tolsen, you recalled incorrectly, I have read the literature, and it clearly states over and over that methyl-D is approximately 50% as androgenic as M1T (M1T already having a respectably  high anabolic to androgenic ratio), so really, besides the liver toxicity, there is not much one can say negatively about this supplement.  Take milk thistle, NAC, and r-ALA, and you will be A-OK. 'nuff said.  Out 5000.



No, I rarely recall incorrectly. Extrapolating from comparisons of the compounds to methyltestosterone, the existing literature (Vida text) would indicate that methyldienolone??? is between 2-3x as androgenic as M1T for the anabolic potency. Obviously, real world feedback is often a lot different than animal assays, but that is how it stands on paper at least.

I would like to see the literature you are referring to.

And, just to note, taking liver protection supplements does not ensure that you are ok.


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## David Tolson (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by elitist *_
> I went to kilosports....bottle does seem a bit generic, but hey, this is the site Kneller himself recomended people to. (Kneller being the patent holder on the brand name Methyldienolone). From what I'm getting so far from these perticular ones though, I will never stray from KS. It's a quality product, to be sure.



Having a name patented (trademarked?) means absolutely nothing. It is just a marketing strategy. Just like Cytodyne has tons of names trademarked, like "Tyroplex," that doesn't mean the tyrosine you get anywhere else is going to be different. In fact, using the patented name does not ensure anything about the quality of the product.


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## David Tolson (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by rrgg *_
> I noticed that KiloSports is $70 and designersupp and another one are $25 and $26.
> 
> Do you know more about why Kneller recommends KiloSports?   I can understand some inflation in the price, but that's almost 300%.



He recommends them because he sold it to them.


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## David Tolson (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by elitist *_
> No, you're right rr. The patent(the term Kneller himself used) is on the brand name. So in theory, Gaspari, and all the others should have identical prods......Hey guys, all I know, is that compared to the price of a "legit" on cycle, $70 is nothing to flinch at. Find another stand alone that cheap, and I will be silenced. I mean, you're talking 30 days at the max dose for 70 beans. I'm not going to someone selling beta-solutions, or any other variations on this product, but hey, that's just me. I know what it's like having to pinch pennies, so do what ya feel is best. I wanted Knellers, so I paid a measly $50 more. Simple. Fuck all the dumb shit. Yanno?



Yeah, "fuck all the dumb shit." Like paying three times as much for a product that is at best equivalent, and which, for anyone who has been paying attention, there is a good chance doesn't even contain the active.

"Find another stand alone that cheap, and I will be silenced."

Methyl-1-test, from Underground Labs, $20 a month at 20 mg daily. And, if you are referring to scheduled substances, many oral steroids are dirt cheap if you know where to find them, and injectables are cheaper.


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## Power Rabbit (Apr 15, 2004)

ya i can do a moderate gear cycle for 70-90 bucks... why people think more expensive means better makes no sense to me


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## elitist (Apr 15, 2004)

wow, extrapolated......I'm impressed. How positively snide of you "Mr. Tolsen".  The literature thast stands out in my head will be rediscovered, be sure of that, ans as far as your comments referring to my comment about liver protection supplements, and being OK,  funny to me that you took that as a scientifically stated fact. It was an opinion, one that of course largely optomistic and generalized. Funny you missed that. Oh, and as for the post about the patent/trademark statement I made, did you completely miss post #49 by chance, or was it out of co0nvenience to your assails on my commentary? "No, you're right rr. The patent(the term Kneller himself used) is on the brand name. So in theory, Gaspari, and all the others should have identical prods...."  Is it just me, or did I already state the correction you are trying to impose upon me? It is a trademarkeed name, and I do understand that it can mean next to nothing when comparing purity/effectiveness of a compound. However, the company which markets the trademarked produxt is highly reputable, as is bruce Kneller in the anabolic industry. Those two factors allude to a superior, and legit product, as opposed to the lesser known/sketchier behind the scenes companies who have not yet established their reputation in the supplement industry.  Don't talk down to me, your statements are overblown, and crass.


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## elitist (Apr 15, 2004)

More expensive does not mean "better" persay, more expensive is usually conducive to superior quailty/purity...note the "USUALLY"


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## biggmike777 (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by elitist *_
> More expensive does not mean "better" persay, more expensive is usually conducive to superior quailty/purity...note the "USUALLY"



On the BB.com forums Bruce Kneller's product was actually tested for purity and the outcome was that there was not much methyldienolone, if any actually in Kilo's product. Bruce sent it himself to Pat Arnold to be tested and it came back this way.


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## rrgg (Apr 15, 2004)

> In a recent newsletter, someone taking M-dien had bloodwork done and his ALT and AST were double what they should be. That is the reason for short (two week) cycles.



Hmm... so 1-3mg of methyl-d is toxic enough to warrant a 2 week limit on cycles.  What does this mean for d-bol and various other steroids that people cycle for 6 weeks or more?  Is methyl-d that much more toxic?


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## elitist (Apr 15, 2004)

I wouldnt be so hasty to believe everything you read in BB.com Bigmike. You may have a valid point about Arnolds test results, and also quite possibly, there may be much more to this "test" than meets the eye.  I myself, have seen quality gains on the methyldienolone from kilo. No shit. So to sit here, and have you tell me its basically a placebo, is not a pill I'm going to just sit back and swallow(no pun intended). This supp was worth the &0 bills. I stand by that. Real world results speak for themselves. I would have no shame in admitting if I'd been had by Kilo. That would be that. Alas, this is not the case. Arnolds test may say one thing, but my anecdotal evidence tells another tale. That's all I can say about this prod. It is effective.


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## HoldDaMayo (Apr 16, 2004)

heresay for teh win! 

sigh... this is why this industry is so laughed at... pickup a motor trend magazine and look at the LEGAL STEROID adds in the back and laugh your ass off at the ingrediants... yet you'll find people's accounts of the wonderful results...

Bottom line is, you can only learn so much from a forum... and you can only be a guinea pig for so long before you cause permanent damage... finding the balance isn't easy when it comes to debates like this....


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## ddouble (Apr 16, 2004)

If you've seen the cost estimates on the material and packaging, you know mdien costs about $15 tops per bottle.  So where is the other 55 bucks going when you buy Kilo/Gaspari?  You're paying for their ads in the muscle mags and padding their pockets with at least 2x the profit of the Designer/1Fast product.  So assuming that product quality is the same (I believe the Designer material tested at 98.6 percent), why pay almost three times as much?  
From time to time, every consumer gets overzealous about a purchase and gets screwed on price.  Just recognize that this is the case with anyone who bought/is buying from Kilo/Gaspari.


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## rrgg (Apr 16, 2004)

Apparently, someone taking 1-3mg M-dien daily had bloodwork done showing ALT and AST double what they should be.  Does someone know how this compares to ALT/AST results for taking 5-25mg of daily dbol or some other drug that's been around for many years?

Thanks.


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## elitist (Apr 16, 2004)

hey .....all i can say is i bought kilos prod, and to me, it it worth the money i paid. Am I saying i got the best deal or the best m-dien out there? fuck no. Am i going to lose sleep at night because i may have spent 50 or so bucks more than i could have spent on an equally effective prod? fuck no. Will i be a more cautious consumer in the future when it comes to descision time, most definitely. Will I spend countless hours upon hours researching companies and validating their claims of a superior product next time around? Fuck no. Will I do an appreciable amount of scrutinizing before i buy, fuck yes.


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## David Tolson (Apr 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by elitist *_
> wow, extrapolated......I'm impressed. How positively snide of you "Mr. Tolsen".  The literature thast stands out in my head will be rediscovered, be sure of that,



MethylD and M1T have been compared head to head? And I should take your word from this? As it stands right now, from the literature that is actually known to exist, M1T is less androgenic. In all reality this may be why people are liking methylD better, because some androgenic properties aren't necessarily a bad thing.



> ans as far as your comments referring to my comment about liver protection supplements, and being OK,  funny to me that you took that as a scientifically stated fact. It was an opinion, one that of course largely optomistic and generalized. Funny you missed that.



Then you should've stated as such, instead of saying "Take milk thistle, NAC, and r-ALA, and you will be A-OK."



> Oh, and as for the post about the patent/trademark statement I made, did you completely miss post #49 by chance, or was it out of co0nvenience to your assails on my commentary? "No, you're right rr. The patent(the term Kneller himself used) is on the brand name. So in theory, Gaspari, and all the others should have identical prods...."  Is it just me, or did I already state the correction you are trying to impose upon me? It is a trademarkeed name, and I do understand that it can mean next to nothing when comparing purity/effectiveness of a compound. However, the company which markets the trademarked produxt is highly reputable, as is bruce Kneller in the anabolic industry. Those two factors allude to a superior, and legit product, as opposed to the lesser known/sketchier behind the scenes companies who have not yet established their reputation in the supplement industry.  Don't talk down to me, your statements are overblown, and crass.



This is all purely subjective. As for the purity/quality issue, people can judge for themselves.

http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=1&t=9011
http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=1&t=9069


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## David Tolson (Apr 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by elitist *_
> More expensive does not mean "better" persay, more expensive is usually conducive to superior quailty/purity...note the "USUALLY"



With dietary supplements, product purity is a minor factor at most in determining the end price. How much money the company spends on advertising, packaging, etc., how much buying power the company has, and how much money the company thinks people will pay for something are much larger factors in most cases. Take Now Foods, reliably pure, yet almost always they have the lowest price.


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## David Tolson (Apr 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by elitist *_
> I wouldnt be so hasty to believe everything you read in BB.com Bigmike. You may have a valid point about Arnolds test results, and also quite possibly, there may be much more to this "test" than meets the eye.  I myself, have seen quality gains on the methyldienolone from kilo. No shit. So to sit here, and have you tell me its basically a placebo, is not a pill I'm going to just sit back and swallow(no pun intended). This supp was worth the &0 bills. I stand by that. Real world results speak for themselves. I would have no shame in admitting if I'd been had by Kilo. That would be that. Alas, this is not the case. Arnolds test may say one thing, but my anecdotal evidence tells another tale. That's all I can say about this prod. It is effective.



First, as I recently posted elsewhere: "Awareness of the placebo effect does not make you immune to it, by any means. Everyone considers themself to be an objective observer, able to adequately determine whether or not they are getting results from something - other than the good scientist. IOW I don't care how long someone has been lifting, or how smart they are, I wouldn't put much trust in anecdotal feedback from anyone, including myself."

Second, I'm not saying you are, but you could easily be someone trying to protect BK's interests. This wouldn't be too hard to believe since when I checked earlier your posts were almost exclusively on threads that discussed methylD so far. All I'm saying is, you really can't take anecodtal feedback from anyone for granted, especially someone who has made clear false or unsupportable statements in support of a product ("Take liver protection supplements and you will be A-OK," "50% as androgenic as M1T," etc).


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## elitist (Apr 18, 2004)

You make valid points Mr. Tolson, who's to say I'm not BKs bosom buddy? .....Hey the placebo effect is worth mentioning, but surely you don't write off anecdotal eveidence completely on its behalf. If it is subtle, maybe then....but stark results?   That's harder to write off as psychosomatic(although not impossible).  Yes, I have made subjective statements on here..and I trust that they were taken as such. Never did I state these opinions as factual, and I'm sure the good people of the board can infer they are anything but.  I'm going for my liver bloodwork on Tues., and I, being a methyldienolone user for the past weeks at 3 mg. a day will hopefully shed some light on the toxicity of the compound. Of course the varibles are too many to count between individual tolerance/sides, but one thing is for sure, the bloodwork is not partial to any placebo induced suggestion. So we shall see.


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## rrgg (Apr 19, 2004)

Thanks elitist.  I hope you share the results of that bloodwork.


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## topolo (Apr 19, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by HoldDaMayo *_
> heresay for teh win!
> 
> sigh... this is why this industry is so laughed at... pickup a motor trend magazine and look at the LEGAL STEROID adds in the back and laugh your ass off at the ingrediants... yet you'll find people's accounts of the wonderful results...
> ...




well said hold da mayo!!!


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## elitist (Apr 19, 2004)

not well said.  wtf do adds for smilax and deer antler velvet have to do with methyldienolone? Yea ...I'm  giving groundless positive reviews on a product that definitely doesnt work, right?....


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## topolo (Apr 19, 2004)

YES............WELL SAID!!!


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## elitist (Apr 20, 2004)

(laffs)....yer funny....lookin'


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## tomas101 (Apr 20, 2004)

price mark ups make consumers feel that they are paying for a superior product when in actuality, if they did a lil research they would find better deals with the same ingredients...name of a company has a lot to do with it...vpx, beverly int., etc can mark prices up b/c pple buy from them feeling that they are a superior company...kinda like with cars...pple buy mercedes b/c of the quality they put into their cars... that might not have came out correctly but u know what i mean ...brain is fried from just finishing a marketing exam and this is exaclty what it was on..lol


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## elitist (Apr 20, 2004)

yea i guess the mark up did make me feel better, bit yanno, when all is said and done I believe I got what I paid for. Could I have paid less? perhaps, but damn, to me, fifty dollars is not something I'm gonna whine about. so why dont you all follow suit.   This thread needs to be termed already, gettin redundant...


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## tomas101 (Apr 20, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by elitist *_
> yea i guess the mark up did make me feel better, bit yanno, when all is said and done I believe I got what I paid for.



ah HA!!! i was correct


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## elitist (Apr 20, 2004)

ummm....way to go sherlock


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## rrgg (Apr 21, 2004)

Wasn't Kilo the only one with the product in stock at the time anyway?  I don't think elitist got ripped off.  The other guys offered a lower price but didn't have it in stock yet.


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