# Taking M1T and Usnic Acid Together?



## M.J.H. (May 14, 2004)

Is this an extremely bad idea?


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## gopro (May 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MonStar *_
> Is this an extremely bad idea?



Your liver would think so.


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## Twin Peak (May 14, 2004)

Indeed.

Might as well down it with 5-6 shots of tequila while you are at it.


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## gopro (May 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Indeed.
> 
> Might as well down it with 5-6 shots of tequila while you are at it.



And 8-10 Tylenol.


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## Twin Peak (May 14, 2004)

Liver?  What liver?


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## gopro (May 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Liver?  What liver?



What were we talking about?


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## Monolith (May 14, 2004)

Hey Mon... maybe you should call it quits with the M1T now?  I mean...  there was 3 weeks of S1+ already, and youre at 2 weeks of M1T now, right?  There will be plenty of time for other cycles, maybe its best not to risk doing any permanent damage. :/


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## M.J.H. (May 16, 2004)

I am starting to think the same thing Monolith. I am really not sure what to do at this point. I am either going to finish up this last week or M1T and then do my PCT, or have tomorrow be my last day and stop it at 5 weeks, rather than 6.


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## TrojanMan60563 (May 16, 2004)

its always better to be safe then sorry.


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## plouffe (May 16, 2004)

Usnic Acid - ?


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## Tank316 (May 16, 2004)

usnic acid will torch your liver if you drink, and UA itself can be just as bad. there isnt a prize that big worth taking UA for, IMO.


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## plouffe (May 16, 2004)

Well what does Usnic Acid do for you?


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## brodus (May 16, 2004)

Usnic Acid is an "uncoupler," which effects the way your metabolism works-->it interferes with the way you produce enrgy, making your system highly inefficient-->producing heat instead of energy.  So calories only have about a 60% impact-->the rest becomes heat.

Usnic Acid works very well, with weight loss of 5-8 pounds per week easily possible-->problem is, it can cause serious liver problems and possibly liver failure in some people.  It's kind of like DNP-->the active and toxic doses are very similar.

Ironically, although products containing Usnic Acid have been pulled from the market, it is still availble, while Ephedra is not.

I have read way too many very scary user reports to ever try the stuff, even though I really would love to see the effects.


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## topolo (May 17, 2004)

i agree brodus i would love to use it too but i am too scared!


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## Twin Peak (May 17, 2004)

Didn't do much for me, save for massive headaches.


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## gopro (May 17, 2004)

As brodus mentioned, it is an "uncoupler of oxidative phosphorylation." It makes it harder for us to resynthesize ADP into ATP, making a process that is normally about 60% efficient, no more than 40% efficient, throwing off many more calories as heat.

I have used it before with pretty good success, especially combined with E/C. I have seen it work brilliantly for some and only mildly for others. Dose also has alot to do with it. The more you take, the better results you get (up to a point), but this increases chances for both side effects and liver problems.


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## brodus (May 17, 2004)

GP, do you know anyone who had bad side effects, i.e. the ubiquitous rash, and had to quit taking it?

Do you recommend to people?


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## topolo (May 17, 2004)

gp can you advise on what dosage you took and for how long?

tp, can you as well please?


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## PreMier (May 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Indeed.
> 
> Might as well down it with 5-6 shots of tequila while you are at it.



This is ironic.


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## Monolith (May 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by PreMier *_
> This is ironic.



Quite.  Wouldnt you love to see Mon's liver results?


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## PreMier (May 17, 2004)

They would be "interesting" to say the least.


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## gopro (May 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by brodus *_
> GP, do you know anyone who had bad side effects, i.e. the ubiquitous rash, and had to quit taking it?
> 
> Do you recommend to people?



No, never had a client get a rash. I have had people feel very lethargic, weak in the gym, headachy and/or nauseous.

I only recommend it to my clients that compete or are extremely hardcore.


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## gopro (May 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by topolo *_
> gp can you advise on what dosage you took and for how long?
> 
> tp, can you as well please?



450-600 mg of usnic acid per day works well, divided into 3 doses. I do know people that have gone as high as 1200 mg per day, but I feel this is dangerously high and asking for trouble.


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## Mudge (May 17, 2004)

You aren't fat so I dont know why you would even consider it, but as far as safety its about "as safe" as DNP.


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## gopro (May 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> You aren't fat so I dont know why you would even consider it, but as far as safety its about "as safe" as DNP.



Well, most people use this to get from say 6-7% bodyfat down to 3-4%, not b/c they are fat.

As far as safety goes, UA would never raise body temp as high as DNP can. UA is far "safer" than DNP for sure.


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## Monolith (May 18, 2004)

Isnt UA more toxic to the liver than DNP?


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## gopro (May 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Monolith *_
> Isnt UA more toxic to the liver than DNP?



Some say that...I disagree. And besides, the effective dose and deadly dose of DNP are so close that DNP is just so much more dangerous.


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## topolo (May 18, 2004)

GP how long of a cycle.........to still be somewhat "safe"?

and is milk thistle adviseable while using it?


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## brodus (May 18, 2004)

GoPro, UA indeed shuts down the oxidative phosphorolation process harder then DNP:



> The study cited looks at the concentrations of UA or DNP at the target site (liver mitochondria) which cause complete shutdown of OP. In the study cited, UA did so at 1/50th the concentration of DNP. _1: Nat Toxins 1996;4(2):96-102 Related Articles, Links
> 
> Lichen acids as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation of mouse-liver mitochondria.
> 
> ...



Now, that doesn't make UA more dangerous than DNP (I definitely think we all agree DNP is a much more lethal chemical) for a number of reasons, but something worth noting.

If I was going to try it, I would be extremely conservative for the first two weeks, b/c it's not something that you bump up every day until you see results.  That's how most of the bad reports I read occurred.   The effects may continue after stopping supplementation:



> I was the person to report extremely high liver enzyme levels. I took SU for about a week. I had some reaction so I went to the er and they did blood tests. At this point the liver enzymes were slightly high. I stopped the SU. However the enzymes continued to rise for 2 more weeks. At which point it started a downward trend and finally back to normal after a few more weeks. The doctor said there problably isn't any long term damage.



Also, you may be abnormally sensitive to UA, and it's no fun to learn this in an ambulance on the way to the hospital for liver failure.

From a study on what happens if you shutdown the oxidative phosphoralation process hard :



> Complete shutdown of oxidative phosphoralation causes liver failure, the inhibition even seen with lower doses causes tremendous amounts of free radical damage as well as impairing liver function which *in those susceptible* MAY lead to early/rapid expression of liver related cancers.



From an excellent post on UA:



> 1. Rash ? Some users develop a rash on usnic acid and sodium usniate. This appears to an allergic reaction to some substance within usnic acid. What we have witnessed is that the rash is mostly present in higher dosages ? usually above 750mg. In addition, the rash has subsided in all people who have reported the rash. For some it took a few days, others around 2 weeks to completely subside.
> 
> 2. Heat and increased sweating ? this is the most commonly reported side effect of usnic acid. The heat stops as usage stops and is simply a by-product of the way usnic acid works in your body.
> 
> ...



Lastly, for an opposing viewpoint, this is the post from another forum that made me decide to stay away from UA:



> 1)
> supplements containing usnic acid (or its sodium salt) have been implicated in fulminant hepatic failure (liver problems) in close to a dozen otherwise healthy people between the ages of 18 and 32.
> 
> 2)
> ...


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## brodus (May 18, 2004)

And it's hard to ignore the FDA action on Lipokinetix:



> *FDA Warns Consumers Not to Use the Dietary Supplement Lipokinetix*
> The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is warning consumers immediately to stop use of the product Lipokinetix®, marketed as a dietary supplement by Syntrax Innovations, Inc. Lipokinetix has been implicated in a number of serious liver injuries. FDA has received multiple reports of persons who developed liver injury or liver failure while using Lipokinetix.
> 
> Lipokinetix is marketed for weight loss. It contains the ingredients norephedrine (also known as phenylpropanolamine or PPA), caffeine, yohimbine, diiodothyronine, and sodium usniate. The injuries reported to FDA occurred in persons between 20 and 32 years of age. No apparent cause of liver injury was identified in these reports other than use of Lipokinetix. Liver injury developed between 2 weeks and 3 months of Lipokinetix use.


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## brodus (May 18, 2004)

Lastly, here is a list of studies on Usnic Acid:

1) J Ethnopharmacol 1999 Sep;66(3):343-6
2) Minerva Ginecol 1999 Jun;51(6):255-60
3) Eur J Pharm Sci 1998 Apr;6(2):141-4
4) Cell Mol Life Sci 1997 Aug;53(8):667-72
5) Nat Toxins 1996;4(2):96-102
6) J Ethnopharmacol 1991 Jul;33(3):217-20
7) Dermatol Monatsschr 1987;173(4):221-5
8) Contact Dermatitis 1995 Oct;33(4):271-2
9) Drug Metab Dispos 1992 Nov-Dec;20(6):909-11
10) Drug Metabol Drug Interact 1995;12(1):53-63

Note, there has not been a single study indicating Usnic Acid as a safe weight loss formulation in humans.  It is, however, an effective treatment for genital warts (this is true).


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## gopro (May 18, 2004)

Brodus...in NO WAY does usnic acid raise body temp to the level that DNP does. I've seen them both in action and there is NO comparison. I had a few talks about this with one of the bigger "gurus" in the industry, that helps prep many IFBB pros for their shows in the drug dept., and he agreed that UA is not in the same ballpark with DNP. He feels it is almost useless (after some experimentation)...although I disagree with him on that, I certainly agree that UA is in no way DNP.


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## brodus (May 18, 2004)

Yeah, the DNP death is a cooking one...NO THANK YOU!!

The UA death is liver failure.

I know you know this : )

Just wanted to point out the apples/oranges for other readers.

I have read a first-person account of an IFBB on DNP, and it literally burns fat off faster than anything...but a few too many mgs, and you're screwed!

The reason they even investigated DNP for weight loss was b/c the women working in ammo factories in WWII who were exposed to DNP were losing, like, 40 pounds in a month or two!

I agree with you, UA and DNP are only for the competitors and the truly hardcore, and even they need to be extremely careful or monitored.

I am more concerned with longevity/maintaining a great physique for life/competing in triathlons, etc., so it's not really attractive to me.  I guess for someone whose annual salary depended on that last .5% of bodyfat, it would be a risk worth taking, especially since the stuff is so cheap.  

On a side note, I am thinking of running my first Clen cycle...I heard 60% of the U.S. Olympic cycling team is prescribed it for "exercise induced asthma" (which only affects 1% of the population!)


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## Mudge (May 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Some say that...I disagree. And besides, the effective dose and deadly dose of DNP are so close that DNP is just so much more dangerous.



600 is high for DNP and that is after tapering up. I have heard of 800 for a very big guy and most people crap their pants when they hear that.

Oxidization is essentially why people die. If you look at the brain after death, free radical/oxidative damage shows the toll it takes.

Oxygen giveth life and taketh it away.

If you compete though and "need it" to hit 3-4% bodyfat, go for it. One of many reasons I wont be competing.


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## gopro (May 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by brodus *_
> Yeah, the DNP death is a cooking one...NO THANK YOU!!
> 
> The UA death is liver failure.
> ...



Thats cool. I'm glad the comparison was made and the effects of each were noted. I have worked with a couple of competitors that decided to take the risk of DNP, and one of them lost 14 lbs of fat in 14 days...AMAZING! But still, not worth it in my opinion. To me DNP are for those that are lazy with their diet and find themselves out of shape with 3 weeks to go. Do it right and DNP will never be needed.


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## topolo (May 18, 2004)

where can these products be purchased?


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## Monolith (May 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> But still, not worth it in my opinion. To me DNP are for those that are lazy with their diet and find themselves out of shape with 3 weeks to go. Do it right and DNP will never be needed.



You could make the same case for almost any supplement.


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## gopro (May 19, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Monolith *_
> You could make the same case for almost any supplement.



No, this is different. DNP is NOT a supplement first of all...it is a dangerous drug. And there is NO drug/supplement that can kill you as quickly aside from powerful diuretics. Additionally, nothing is in the ballpark as far as physique transformation goes, which is why someone can be rather out of shape and use this stuff for a week or two and literally transform (bodyfat wise).

No drug, including steroids, T3, clen, or anything else works like DNP can if you know how to use it (and even if you do you can still end up dead).


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## Mudge (May 19, 2004)

DNP sales are tracked as it is an explosive, not exactly off the shelf. It was a diet supplement waaaaaaay back around WWI days as I recall, it dissapeared very quickly.

Like GP said, I saw similar results in one person who lost something like 5% of his bodyfat in a week without losing any LBM noticeably, while on a high carb diet.


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## topolo (May 19, 2004)

how about a link??????????????


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## Ginobili (May 19, 2004)

A link for what?


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## gopro (May 19, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by topolo *_
> how about a link??????????????



There is no link for supplemental DNP. Usually steroid dealers sell the stuff. Usnic acid you can get on the legal market though.


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## topolo (May 19, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> There is no link for supplemental DNP. Usually steroid dealers sell the stuff. Usnic acid you can get on the legal market though.





would somebody be kind enough to post a link for it through a reputable supplier please?


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## PreMier (May 19, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by topolo *_
> would somebody be kind enough to post a link for it through a reputable supplier please?



Dont ask for sources on the board.  You should know this.
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26651

If its for UA then do a google search.


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## gopro (May 19, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by topolo *_
> would somebody be kind enough to post a link for it through a reputable supplier please?



You DON'T plan on using it do you?


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## topolo (May 20, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by PreMier *_
> Dont ask for sources on the board.  You should know this.
> http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26651
> 
> If its for UA then do a google search.




I thought ua was legal.........if it is why cant i ask for a source??????????? Who made you the hall monitor?


SO I ask again does anybody have a link


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## topolo (May 20, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> You DON'T plan on using it do you?




just want to investigate it gp...........I find the whole ua concept interesting.


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## brodus (May 20, 2004)

So you are interested in UA? 

Do a search on the internet, man.  You'll find it.

If you're after DNP, I'd suggest picking up a good 10-year pesticide.


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## topolo (May 20, 2004)

i did a search i would like to know a company that somebody here could reccomend. that is the point of coming here.to share experiences and info.........anybody can search google! I am asking for assistance fromy my IM brotheren.


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## brodus (May 20, 2004)

PM me and I'll send you a link


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## PreMier (May 20, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by topolo *_
> I thought ua was legal.........if it is why cant i ask for a source??????????? Who made you the hall monitor?
> 
> 
> SO I ask again does anybody have a link




Damn, your a retard.  Did you read my post.  I said if it is for UA do a search.  You werent specific, so I pointed out to you that asking for sources is not allowed.


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## topolo (May 20, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by PreMier *_
> Damn, your a retard.  Did you read my post.  I said if it is for UA do a search.  You werent specific, so I pointed out to you that asking for sources is not allowed.




you are the retard who thinks he runs this place! why do you feel the need to comment on my post. i have spoken about the search engine on this site in the past.i dont like it. that is why i wanted some assistance.................now leave me alone


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## topolo (May 20, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by brodus *_
> PM me and I'll send you a link




ok thanks bro


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## PreMier (May 20, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by topolo *_
> you are the retard who thinks he runs this place! why do you feel the need to comment on my post. i have spoken about the search engine on this site in the past.i dont like it. that is why i wanted some assistance.................now leave me alone




I dont think that I run the place.  You seriously need to grow up.  Calling me a "hall monitor" because I was pointing something simple out.  I try to keep the site out of trouble because I like it here.  Thats all.  The reason that I commented on your post is because you WERE NOT CLEAR on what you were asking.  As you can see from these 2 quotes:


> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> There is no link for supplemental DNP. Usually steroid dealers sell the stuff. Usnic acid you can get on the legal market though.





> _*Originally posted by topolo *_
> would somebody be kind enough to post a link for it through a reputable supplier please?




Next time be specific and say what you want.  And I didnt know that you did not like the search engine.  Why would I.


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## topolo (May 20, 2004)

Next time be specific and say what you want.  And I didnt know that you did not like the search engine.  Why would I. [/QUOTE]


because you seem to know everything!!! I dont need you to lecture me on the rules or to tell me what I can post! Just worry about your threads and leave the content up to the moderators......ok cyber cop?


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## PreMier (May 20, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by topolo *_
> 
> because you seem to know everything!!! I dont need you to lecture me on the rules or to tell me what I can post! Just worry about your threads and leave the content up to the moderators......ok cyber cop?



I seem to know everything?  Glad thats your opinion, because I never claimed it.  And it wasnt a lecture, just a simple suggeston on what not to do.  Go ahead and post for sources in the anabolic forum.  See how long it stays up.  
I could leave the content up to the mods, but I am just trying to help out.  No need to freak out on me.


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## topolo (May 20, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by PreMier *_
> I seem to know everything?  Glad thats your opinion, because I never claimed it.  And it wasnt a lecture, just a simple suggeston on what not to do.  Go ahead and post for sources in the anabolic forum.  See how long it stays up.
> I could leave the content up to the mods, but I am just trying to help out.  No need to freak out on me.




I'm not freaking out on you but I violated no rules! Your post was not necessary. I am well aware of the rules here and on other forums and I don't need you to explain them to me.


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## PreMier (May 20, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by topolo *_
> I'm not freaking out on you but I violated no rules! Your post was not necessary. I am well aware of the rules here and on other forums and I don't need you to explain them to me.



Here we go again.. this is an endless loop.  Like I said, this was caused by confusion.  If you would have been more specific, then I would not have said that.  Sorry.


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## topolo (May 20, 2004)

Here we go again.. this is an endless loop. Like I said, this was caused by confusion. If you would have been more specific, then I would not have said that. Sorry.



So am I .......let's forget this! BTW I looked at your pics.........great LATS!!!!!!!!!!


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## PreMier (May 20, 2004)

Thanks man


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## WILDMANBMAC (Jun 14, 2004)

*USNIC ACID is not bad*

Bad Idea?????????????  I don't think so.  I've taken a product called SHRED that has USNIC ACID in it and believe me............... it works.  I took off 10 pounds in 2 weeks and now I'm slowly taking off the hard to get fat and I'm started to look very lean.

The stuff works!!!!

www.perfectphysique.com has it in a product called SHRED and a lighter doze in a product called LEAN FAST.

Also, www.usnicacid.net has all the facts about it. 

Truth is, it was one isolated case of a women who had liver problems.  If you actually read the story and understand the background.  She waited until she was they asked her to be a spokes person for the product then she reported the problems.  This way she was able to go after them.  Which is BS.


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## topolo (Jun 14, 2004)

how much shred did you take and for how long?
did you get your liver values checked?


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## Mudge (Jun 15, 2004)

We are talking about stacking 2 items here, thats not the same as one item alone.

Someone discovered they had liver problems after a 4 week cycle of M1T and initially blamed it on the M1T, frankly I believe it simply raised their values to the point where it became noticeable (itching gets bad etc). Some people have genetically fatty livers and thats just how it is.


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## topolo (Jun 15, 2004)

mudge.....have you used ua?


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## topolo (Jun 15, 2004)

http://www.perfectphysique.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1&HS=1

there is not much ua in there!!


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## Mudge (Jun 15, 2004)

topolo said:
			
		

> mudge.....have you used ua?


I've only used clen and T3, I had always considered UA/DNP too freaky and the lazy mans way out. I am considering UA though but I'm giving my liver a break at the moment.

LAM has a journal of sorts in the Anabolic section on his current UA use, he is going to go for about a month he said.


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## gopro (Jun 15, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> I've only used clen and T3, I had always considered UA/DNP too freaky and the lazy mans way out. I am considering UA though but I'm giving my liver a break at the moment.
> 
> LAM has a journal of sorts in the Anabolic section on his current UA use, he is going to go for about a month he said.


You consider UA the lazy man's way out but not clen and T3?


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## WILDMANBMAC (Jun 18, 2004)

I been taken  SHRED for 8 weeks.  My liver levels are fine.  The myth has been 500mg, 600 mg, 700mg of US is what it takes and that my friends is INSANE.  The Woman took 600 mg of UA and thus had issues and I still don't believe it had anything to do with UA.  A small amount taken moderately is a safe and effective way to lose it.  I've turned other on to SHRED and they are seeing the same results.


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## topolo (Jun 18, 2004)

do you own stock?


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## PreMier (Jun 18, 2004)




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## WILDMANBMAC (Jun 19, 2004)

Do I own stock?????????????  I don't own stock in anything.  Unfortunately!! LOL
Seriously, I'm not pushing SHRED or LEAN FAST, just the notion that UA is really a proven fat burner and just because we had ONE 1 bad incident with UA, doesn't mean we should ban it,  To be honest, EPHEDRA made me jittery and SHRED didn't.  Take it for what i's worth.


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## Mudge (Jun 19, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> You consider UA the lazy man's way out but not clen and T3?


Sure, just less dangerous to me. As for jitters, clen is the only thing so far that affects me in that way.


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## gopro (Jun 21, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Sure, just less dangerous to me. As for jitters, clen is the only thing so far that affects me in that way.


I actually had very little sides with UA. Its not even comparable to DNP, which TRULY is the lazy man's dieting tool. Plus, I would say that a clen/T3 combo would be much more potent for fat loss than UA alone...much more.


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## brodus (Jun 21, 2004)

And to the Shred salesman on the board, there have been way more than ONE problematic encouters with UA.  If it was only one, no one here would care.  It's certainly something to take caution when using.  Their is such a thing as idiosyncratic biogenetics, meaning what might "SHRED" you might cause my liver to implode for reasons not fully understood. 

After reading all of the studies, I actually would probably use DNP before UA (although I'll never use either).  DNP is more deadly from a dosing standpoint and a hyper-thermic agonist, but is much less harsh on the liver.  Read the studies if you doubt it; there are quite a few.

BTW, MUDGE, what did you mean by "itching gets bad etc"?  Is this an indicator of liver issues?  Would it be accompanied by a rash?  Please explain.


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## Mudge (Jun 21, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> I would say that a clen/T3 combo would be much more potent for fat loss than UA alone...much more.


So you are saying UA sucks?


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## Mudge (Jun 21, 2004)

brodus said:
			
		

> BTW, MUDGE, what did you mean by "itching gets bad etc"? Is this an indicator of liver issues? Would it be accompanied by a rash? Please explain.


When liver bilirubin values are high, itching eventually occurs.

http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C72787.html



> Why?
> 
> The reason why patients with liver disease itch is not known, although it is commonly believed that some substances accumulate in the blood as a result of a poorly functioning liver and thus cause itching. A simple blood test can exclude liver disease as a cause for the itching, as liver enzymes are often elevated with liver involvement.


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## brodus (Jun 21, 2004)

Thanks...I've developed a small rash that I'm pretty certain is from Etched, but I'm also taking MDien @ 8mg ED, so I was a bit worried when I read that.   To wit: I've gotten a rash from Etched before, so I'm rather certain this is the cause.


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## Mudge (Jun 21, 2004)

Could be unrelated to liver, but I would not know for sure. I am not aware of rashes from liver related stuff though, one of the docs could perhaps answer this if you shoot them a link to the thread with your Q.


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## gopro (Jun 21, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> So you are saying UA sucks?


Not at all, its just that I would use a basic E/C/A stack by itself before just a UA supplement by itself. Now, when UA is used in combo with a thermogenic, its a different story...very synergistic!


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## Monolith (Jun 21, 2004)

If youve got elevated bilirubin, you should see a yellowing in your eyes... and if it gets really bad, youll see your skin begin to yellow.


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## Mudge (Jun 21, 2004)

That is when you are already somewhat SOL.


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## topolo (Jun 21, 2004)

I have a condition called gilberts syndrome...........and as a result my bilirubin count is always elevated. Never turned yellow though.


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## WILDMANBMAC (Jun 21, 2004)

The ONE article that keeps everyone talking about how bad UA is for you is the ONE artical about Jennifer Rosenthal
http://bioweb.usc.edu/courses/2003-spring/documents/bisc150-ca2_article4.pdf

and based on that one incident  the U.S. Food and Drug Administration started warning consumers not to use *Lipokinetix*, touted as a "dietary supplement" by *Syntrax Innovations*, Inc. 

and as I said in a recent reply.........................  she had other monetry reasons to come out with that claim and a bad liver before she took it.  BUT nobody ever talks about that.

If someone swallowed a bottle ADVIL's and had problems................  does that mean we should ban ADVIL?


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## brodus (Jun 21, 2004)

Dude, you don't do your research very well. This was the FDA press release:  

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/2001/ANS01120.html

"The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is warning consumers immediately to stop use of the product Lipokinetix®, marketed as a dietary supplement by Syntrax Innovations, Inc. *Lipokinetix has been implicated in a number of serious liver injuries.* FDA has *received multiple reports of persons who developed liver injury or liver failure* while using Lipokinetix.
Lipokinetix is marketed for weight loss. It contains the ingredients norephedrine (also known as phenylpropanolamine or PPA), caffeine, yohimbine, diiodothyronine, and sodium usniate. *The injuries reported to FDA occurred in persons between 20 and 32 years of age. No apparent cause of liver injury was identified in these reports other than use of Lipokinetix. Liver injury developed between 2 weeks and 3 months of Lipokinetix use. *"

And the semi-ban and FDA warning happened *BEFORE *the story you refer to.  You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

There are close to 50 peer-reviewed studies that show UA to be dangerous and HIGHLY live toxic in very small dosages.  Just because some mountain people from Tibet drank it in Tea for 2000 years does not make it safe.  There is so much misinformation out there.   People believe everything marketers tell them to believe because they're too f'in stupid to do their own legwork, and were too busy doing other things to pay attention in class, and therefore are at the mercy of others to translate things like science journals, etc.  Yes, that includes you, "WILDMAN."  

Also, read these, if you can, and they let you into a legitimate university library:
1) J Ethnopharmacol 1999 Sep;66(3):343-6
2) Minerva Ginecol 1999 Jun;51(6):255-60
3) Eur J Pharm Sci 1998 Apr;6(2):141-4
4) Cell Mol Life Sci 1997 Aug;53(8):667-72
5) Nat Toxins 1996;4(2):96-102
6) J Ethnopharmacol 1991 Jul;33(3):217-20
7) Dermatol Monatsschr 1987;173(4):221-5
8) Contact Dermatitis 1995 Oct;33(4):271-2
9) Drug Metab Dispos 1992 Nov-Dec;20(6):909-11
10) Drug Metabol Drug Interact 1995;12(1):53-63
11) Ann Intern Med 2002;136:590-595,616-618

And then tell me that UA is safe.

Point is, it's much more liver toxic than DNP, and not as effective.  The fact that you belittle anyone with a differing opinion, especially others who do real research while you spin the same old story, is why I think you're a sales rep...I've never met an honest sales rep...and sales reps never know the science very well, or can reference good studies...anyone whose first post is "TRY THIS AWESOME PRODUCT" is a sales rep.  You're lucky IM doesn't ban dumbasses as easily as Anabolic Minds, or you wouldn't have even gotten that fifth thread out.


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## WILDMANBMAC (Jun 25, 2004)

It's obvious to me that I'm dealing with an idiot.  I'm fully aware of ALL the articles on UA and I'm VERY educated on the dangers of it as well as the dangers surrounding DNP.   * I am TAKING the stuff *

The fact is EVERYONE and their body reacts differently to natural and or manufactured supplements.  If you for one moment think that reports of any kind side effects are to taken as gospel for the *masses* then there is no need to try and have a normal debate (which I already see is impossible) with a narrow minded person such as yourself.    There are 1000's of people taking UA with NO side effects, but I wouldn't think you'd understand percentages.

and for the record  I'm not a sales person.... I happend to be a personal trainer and have beeen for quite some time with an established and creditable clientele.

Oh yeah.......................and BTW......... by the looks of your picture,  seems like nothing works for you.  So I'd stop preaching to people who are looking for answers.  You should work on *LIFTING WEIGHTS* first before you start preaching to people about the secrets around building a perfect body.


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## gopro (Jun 25, 2004)

Both sides of this debate make good points. Its like I have said so many times before...science/studies tell one side of the story and real world/anectodal reports tell another.

There are some people that get elevated liver enzymes from holding an Anadrol in their hand, and others that get away with taking 5 a day for weeks on end.


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## brodus (Jun 25, 2004)

Wildman, show me how you're right about this claim:

"based on that one incident the U.S. Food and Drug Administration started warning consumers not to use *Lipokinetix"*

Or this claim:

"Truth is, it was one isolated case of a women who had liver problems."

Anyone who actually read the links I provided, would know you are wrong about this.  Not only did the FDA take action BEFORE the "isolated story" you base your argument on, but they did so on MANY SUBSTANTIATED CASES OF LIVER DAMAGE.

The fact is, I pointed out major inaccuracies in your claim, and you had to resort to personal attacks because you can't admit that you're wrong about this.  That's why you sound like a salesman, BC you're glossing over the possible downsides.  

And aynone who read any of the close to *50 Studies* on this,would know you're better off doing DNP.  I never said UA would kill or damage everyone who uses it--but to pretend like its use is without possible problems, the way you do, is completely irresponsible and naive.  

And since you obviously have a background in organic chemistry and wouldn't possibly base the use of a toxic chemical only on your own experience and those you've trained, why don't you explain to myself and the board exactly how much UA it takes to cause complete uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation in liver tissue-->vs. DNP?

And maybe you can explain what happens to the massive release of free radicals that occurs from the release of respiratory control and oligomycin inhibited respiration, or perhaps what that might do in the human body over the long-term?


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