# Can you take Clomid and Nolva at the same time?



## TJTJ (Dec 20, 2011)

I read that Clomid is one of the best pct and nolva for reduction of gyno. but Ive also come across other reports about Nolva achieving similar results as clomid. I cant find the thread posted on here but since you only need 20mg of nolva and w/o any vision issues that comes with 100mg of clomid. you can take less and still achieve similar results without the possibility of estro rebound that comes with clomid. Or is there a possibility of estro rebound with nolva too? 

Also the severe vision issues that come with clomid which isnt good because clomid deals with the pituitary gland and if your vision is changing it could indicate an enlargement of the gland and interfering with the optic chiasm.

would you think if you took 20mg nolva + 50mg clomid for the first week would that be a bad idea? and continue the last 3weeks of 50mg of clomid? only because the vision issues is a major problem for some.


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## kevinhy (Dec 20, 2011)

TJTJ said:


> I read that Clomid is one of the best pct and nolva for reduction of gyno. but Ive also come across other reports about Nolva achieving similar results as clomid. I cant find the thread posted on here but since you only need 20mg of nolva and w/o any vision issues that comes with 100mg of clomid. you can take less and still achieve similar results without the possibility of estro rebound that comes with clomid. Or is there a possibility of estro rebound with nolva too?
> 
> Also the severe vision issues that come with clomid which isnt good because clomid deals with the pituitary gland and if your vision is changing it could indicate an enlargement of the gland and interfering with the optic chiasm.
> 
> would you think if you took 20mg nolva + 50mg clomid for the first week would that be a bad idea? and continue the last 3weeks of 50mg of clomid? only because the vision issues is a major problem for some.



Combining the two is an approach i feel works great.

20/20/10/10 - Nolva
50/50/50/50 - Clomid

^^^thats where its at for PCT


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## TJTJ (Dec 20, 2011)

kevinhy said:


> Combining the two is an approach i feel works great.
> 
> 20/20/10/10 - Nolva
> 50/50/50/50 - Clomid
> ...



Why do you think that works best for you? Im not even sure even taking only 10mg of nolva does anything.


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## exphys88 (Dec 20, 2011)

I just used both plus aromasin for my pct after being on for 8 months.  I'm doing great.  I had zero sides from either of them.  I follow Dr. Scallys plan which calls for both.


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## fredlabrute (Dec 21, 2011)

kevinhy said:


> Combining the two is an approach i feel works great.
> 
> 20/20/10/10 - Nolva
> 50/50/50/50 - Clomid
> ...



I don't know why you're reducing your nolva as you should just do the opposite,clomid works faster but Nolva works kind of gradually and steadily...
I`m just taking both after a heavy cycle,currently doing:
clomid 100-100-50-50-50-50
nolva 20-20-40-40-20-20


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## TJTJ (Dec 21, 2011)

exphysiologist88 said:


> I just used both plus aromasin for my pct after being on for 8 months.  I'm doing great.  I had zero sides from either of them.  I follow Dr. Scallys plan which calls for both.



can you direct me to dr. scally?


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## rc771 (Dec 21, 2011)

i'm running both right now... works great for me.

clomid 100/100/50/50
nolva   40/40/20/20


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## exphys88 (Dec 21, 2011)

TJTJ said:


> can you direct me to dr. scally?



Dr. Scally is at meso and answers questions from members.  Just search his name, he's been recovering aas  and trt users for a long time.


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## MDR (Dec 21, 2011)

Nolva is not effective for PCT for a number of reasons discussed on this forum to death.  Some still use it for Gyno issues.  Clomid is the way to go during PCT, along with Aromasin.


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## freakinhuge (Dec 21, 2011)

exphysiologist88 said:


> I just used both plus aromasin for my pct after being on for 8 months.  I'm doing great.  I had zero sides from either of them.  I follow Dr. Scallys plan which calls for both.



same here and loved it....will be using aromasin, clomid, and nolva again for pct for sure


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## TJTJ (Dec 21, 2011)

MDR said:


> Nolva is not effective for PCT for a number of reasons discussed on this forum to death.  Some still use it for Gyno issues.  Clomid is the way to go during PCT, along with Aromasin.




Here is the thread Im talking about. 

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/anabolic-zone/40412-clomid-nolvadex-testosterone-stimulation.htmlhttp://www.ironmagazineforums.com/anabolic-zone/40412-clomid-nolvadex-testosterone-stimulation.html


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## MDR (Dec 21, 2011)

TJTJ said:


> Here is the thread Im talking about.
> 
> http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/anabolic-zone/40412-clomid-nolvadex-testosterone-stimulation.html


 
Great.  Dated, incorrect information.  Funny how this gets rehashed on here every few months.  You'd think people would have better things to do.


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## SloppyJ (Dec 21, 2011)

This is what I did after a 20wk cycle. 

Clomid: 100/100/75/75/50/50
Nolva: 40/20/20/20/20/20
Aromasin 25mg ED


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## exphys88 (Dec 21, 2011)

MDR said:


> Great.  Dated, incorrect information.  Funny how this gets rehashed on here every few months.  You'd think people would have better things to do.



I'm in no position to debate this issue.  I just do what Scally recommends because he seems like the most qualified person to listen to.


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## MDR (Dec 21, 2011)

This post by TGB1987 probably sums it up as well as any-

If this is such a no-brainer why are there so many guys who use and recommend Clomid for PCT here? It is a choice that we all are entitled to make. So what you are suggesting is instead of using Clomid I should buy (run) Aromasin, Nolva, and IGF-1 and when Clomid works well with Aromasin without the added hassle and cost of adding IGF1. Not everyone wants to use these peptides, some of which have had very little longterm studies completed on their use or any studies on Human use. Clomid is not as good as nolva for antiestrogenic purposes I'll give you that but that is why we are using Aromasin with it. You are referencing William Llewellyn who recommends Tamox for 45 days, Clomid for 30, with Hcg for PCT (no AI) . The fact is you are referencing very outdated information and went as far as making these two threads stickies(this is what is shocking to me). Clomid works just as well as nolva at restoring Test levels post cycle without IGF and GH suppression. Yeah it may take a higher dose but we are comparing differnt drugs. You speak of GnRH suppression which isn't that big of a deal with clomid since it still does just as good of a job as Nolva at restoring the HPTA just requires a higher dose. The possible upregulation of the LH receptors produced by Nolvadex is caused by the antiestrogenic effects produced in the pituitary by Nolva where clomid is not as much antiestrogenic in this area. I say possible upregulation because this is based off the fact that Nolva doesn't lower LH sensitivity where Clomid does slightly most likely due to the higher dose required for Clomid and the antiestrogenic effect nolva has on the pituitary. Add in an AI, Specifically Aromasin you also get an increase IGF1 Test, LH, FSH, and lowered E2 which will make either choice work just fine for PCT. Clomid is better for restoration of the sexual reproductive organs and sperm production which is why it is used as a fertility drug. Nolvadex is not used for this purpose as a first choice. My choice is Clomid and Aromasin which is not very shocking and is the more common current choice for PCT. All in all they both will restore the HPTA for PCT just at different doses. I would rather not have decreased IGF-1 and GH during PCT, I would like an increase in all anabolic hormones if possible but it is not so we have a choice to make. They both have the positives and some negatives but Clomid is my choice. My question to you is Why make this a Sticky, when it is controversial and outdated?

The bumped original post is seven years old, and Bill Llewellyn's article is even older than that. Some still use Nolva during PCT for their own reasons, but the vast majority of us use Clomid and Aromasin because it works better and more efficiently than anything else. Nolva is used primarily as a Gyno drug these days, and I think there are better options there as well, although I've never had any problems with Gyno. If you are still not convinced, take a look at Heavyiron's sticky First cycle and PCT. He addresses the issue as well. Everyone is free to do as they choose, but some of us have been doing this for a few decades, and are just trying to share what we have learned in the hope that it helps people make good, informed choices.


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## exphys88 (Dec 21, 2011)

As much as I respect yours, heavys, and tgb's opinion, I believe that a medical doctor that specializes in recovering aas users as well as trt patients and has treated literally thousands of them is more qualified to determine the best approach.  Of course, he could be wrong, but I think that he is the one who would be most likely to get it right.
I'm not trying to debate here, because you guys know far more than me, I'm just stuck with a choice of who to listen to, and I respectfully choose Dr. Scally and will use Clomid, nolva and aromasin.


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## MDR (Dec 21, 2011)

exphysiologist88 said:


> As much as I respect yours, heavys, and tgb's opinion, I believe that a medical doctor that specializes in recovering aas users as well as trt patients and has treated literally thousands of them is more qualified to determine the best approach. Of course, he could be wrong, but I think that he is the one who would be most likely to get it right.
> I'm not trying to debate here, because you guys know far more than me, I'm just stuck with a choice of who to listen to, and I respectfully choose Dr. Scally and will use Clomid, nolva and aromasin.


 
Nothing wrong with your decision, but it is always good to look at the most recent research in the area, then to depend on one person for their opinion.  I do think if you take the Clomid and Aromasin you will have a successful PCT.  The Nolva isn't much help in my opinion, but I understand your reasoning for taking it despite the information showing it is counter-indicated.  Good luck.


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## Vibrant (Dec 21, 2011)

MDR said:


> Nothing wrong with your decision, but it is always good to look at the most recent research in the area, then to depend on one person for their opinion.  I do think if you take the Clomid and Aromasin you will have a successful PCT.  The Nolva isn't much help in my opinion, but I understand your reasoning for taking it despite the information showing it is counter-indicated.  Good luck.



I have personally dealt with doctors whose knowledge was antiquated. Not too many doctors actually keep up with new research and new studies.


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## exphys88 (Dec 21, 2011)

Vibrant said:


> I have personally dealt with doctors whose knowledge was antiquated. Not too many doctors actually keep up with new research and new studies.



I assure you that Dr scally does.  In fact, he has conducted some of his own.  He used his pct protocol and every patient in his study recovered all hormone levels in 45 days.  A 100% success rate.  No aromasin, just clomid and nolva.  Although he doesn't use aromasin, he sees no problem in doing so.  The question is whether he could have done it w clomid alone, because he did not have that control in his study.


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## MDR (Dec 21, 2011)

exphysiologist88 said:


> I assure you that Dr scally does. In fact, he has conducted some of his own. He used his pct protocol and every patient in his study recovered all hormone levels in 45 days. A 100% success rate. No aromasin, just clomid and nolva. Although he doesn't use aromasin, he sees no problem in doing so. The question is whether he could have done it w clomid alone, because he did not have that control in his study.


 
Interesting.  It is contrary to all modern research, so it going to be taken with a grain of salt, by most experienced lifters.


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## Vibrant (Dec 21, 2011)

exphysiologist88 said:


> I assure you that Dr scally does.  In fact, he has conducted some of his own.  He used his pct protocol and every patient in his study recovered all hormone levels in 45 days.  A 100% success rate.  No aromasin, just clomid and nolva.  Although he doesn't use aromasin, he sees no problem in doing so.  The question is whether he could have done it w clomid alone, because he did not have that control in his study.



so what is his protocol? blast hcg before pct, then clomid/ nolva for 45 days?


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## exphys88 (Dec 21, 2011)

MDR said:


> Interesting.  It is contrary to all modern research, so it going to be taken with a grain of salt, by most experienced lifters.



I'm not sure I follow.  One could argue that the nolva is not necessary, but it shouldn't affect how the clomid works.  Am I correct?  Additionally, you could argue that nolva lowers igf, but that shouldn't affect hormone recovery, just strength changes.  Is it your position that the nolva is detrimental or just unnecessary?  I'm only asking in regards to hormone recovery.


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## exphys88 (Dec 21, 2011)

Vibrant said:


> so what is his protocol? blast hcg before pct, then clomid/ nolva for 45 days?



Yeah, basically the same HCG protocol as heavy, then clomid for 4 weeks and nolva for 6.  He doesn't use aromasin because he says it creates a clouded picture in terms of bloodwork.  But, he sees no problem in using it.


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## MDR (Dec 21, 2011)

exphysiologist88 said:


> Yeah, basically the same HCG protocol as heavy, then clomid for 4 weeks and nolva for 6. He doesn't use aromasin because he says it creates a clouded picture in terms of bloodwork. But, he sees no problem in using it.


 
*Post Cycle therapy*​

I strongly believe that an AI should be used as long as there is an aromatizing compound being administered. In this case Testosterone and HCG aromatize therefore using an AI until these meds clear and a few weeks longer is what I am recommending. There is some evidence that adding Nolva to an AI does not increase the effectiveness of estro control therefore Nolva has no real advantage alongside an AI unless one is experiencing gyno. Additionally Nolva has been shown to reduce IGF-1 and GH levels when used alone. This is not a big deal on cycle as testosterone increases IGF-1 in a dose dependant relationship. However off cycle this is a problem. PCT is a fragile time and lower IGF-1 and GH levels is not desirable. I am recommending an AI that is specific to men that can be used on cycle and during PCT. It is my conclusion that Aromasin is the obvious choice. 

I recommend the following PCT protocol for esters like Cypionate and Enanthate;

*Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day. (You may use less HCG if your testes are normal in size AND you have been using HCG on cycle, i.e. 1,000iu HCG etd.)*

*100/100/100/50 Clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3 after aas ester clears)*

*20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)*

*3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses*

*10g creatine daily *

The HCG is administered BEFORE the ester clears to increase the mass of the testes and bring back ITT levels. This will allow the testes to sustain output of testosterone sooner.

Clomid is universally accepted as THE testosterone recovery tool. It blocks estrogen from the HPTA and stimulates the production of GNRH then initiates the production of LH, which in turn signals the testis (if not atrophied) to produce testosterone.

Aromasin or a similar aromatase inhibitor is for testosterone recovery and it is used to keep the testosterone/estrogen balance in favor of testosterone. It is also helps to keep any additionally occurring estrogen from HCG low to none.

Cortisol is catabolic. It is the enemy of all anabolism and must be kept in check. While it is blocked when under the influence of AAS, it is free to attach to the Anabolic Receptors (AR) once the steroids leave. Due to this blockage Cortisol tends to accumulate and increase when on. A low level is desirable however since it is important for other vital functions such as control of inflammation. Balance is the key. Vitimin C keeps the exercise induced rise of Cortisol in check.

The use of Creatine has shown to increase ATP metabolism and cellular water storage among many other things. This is beneficial because it provides for heightened nutrient storage and a slight increase in anabolism as well as workout stamina.

*References*

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men;

Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males

Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

special thanks to those men and women who have influnced my thinking over the years in regards to aas use.

*Written by heavyiron *
Attached Images
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



estarweightum5.jpg (13.2 KB, 3956 views)


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## unclem (Dec 22, 2011)

i think unless its for pct, just take clomid and during a cycle if only needed use arimidex as if u dont need it dont take it. only pct clomid. as it stops muscle growth imo.


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## exphys88 (Dec 22, 2011)

So, according to heavy, The only issue w nolva is igf levels, but it doesn't affect hormonal recovery.  This was my question.  As a doc, I think his main goal would be recovery and retaining muscle mass would be less important.


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## heavyiron (Dec 22, 2011)

For the record I think Nolva is fine for PCT especially if you used HGH or IGF-1 along side it. 

Scally's protocol was an uncontrolled study so further controlled studies are needed.


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## exphys88 (Dec 22, 2011)

heavyiron said:


> For the record I think Nolva is fine for PCT especially if you used HGH or IGF-1 along side it.
> 
> Scally's protocol was an uncontrolled study so further controlled studies are needed.



Correct.  It could be that the clomid was responsible for the recovery, and nolva added nothing more.  But, until that study is done with the controls in, I feel that it's a wise choice to mimic what they did in the study.


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## heavyiron (Dec 22, 2011)

exphysiologist88 said:


> Correct.  It could be that the clomid was responsible for the recovery, and nolva added nothing more.  But, until that study is done with the controls in, I feel that it's a wise choice to mimic what they did in the study.


  Both Nolva and Clomid have been proven to raise T on there own but Nolva is proven to make you dumber so I'm not sure I would say its a wise choice to use Nolva and Clomid together. LOL!


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## JJ-INSANE1 (Dec 23, 2011)

Do any members feel HCG has to be used for PCT ? If I start a PCT in the future I plan on using nolvadex/ Clomid and many experienced users feel HCG should be used during the cycle when i heard it can actually cause estrogen related problems during a test cycle . There's too much debate on what is a proper PCT .


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## exphys88 (Dec 23, 2011)

JJ-INSANE1 said:


> Do any members feel HCG has to be used for PCT ? If I start a PCT in the future I plan on using nolvadex/ Clomid and many experienced users feel HCG should be used during the cycle when i heard it can actually cause estrogen related problems during a test cycle . There's too much debate on what is a proper PCT .



HCG should be used on cycle and the two weeks after your last pin when the esters are clearing your system (assuming you're using long esters).  There is little controversy about this.  it only causes estrogen problems if you don't take enough AI.  Test will cause more estrogen problems than HCG, but only if your AI is not dialed in.  And, although there is debate in PCT, it's very minor.  First, everyone agrees that clomid should be used.  Second, if you choose to use nolva also, it won't inhibit clomid, it just may be unnecessary.  Third, even those that don't recommend an AI (Dr. Scally), they see no problem in using one.  I prefer to use an AI to prevent any chance of gyno, and aromasin being a suicidal inhibitor is the best choice for this.


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## JJ-INSANE1 (Dec 24, 2011)

exphysiologist88 said:


> HCG should be used on cycle and the two weeks after your last pin when the esters are clearing your system (assuming you're using long esters).  There is little controversy about this.  it only causes estrogen problems if you don't take enough AI.  Test will cause more estrogen problems than HCG, but only if your AI is not dialed in.  And, although there is debate in PCT, it's very minor.  First, everyone agrees that clomid should be used.  Second, if you choose to use nolva also, it won't inhibit clomid, it just may be unnecessary.  Third, even those that don't recommend an AI (Dr. Scally), they see no problem in using one.  I prefer to use an AI to prevent any chance of gyno, and aromasin being a suicidal inhibitor is the best choice for this.


I definitely plan on having Nolvadex and Proviron on hand during my test cycle . It was recommeded from a mod on another board I'm on that I should use Proviron throughout the cycle because it increases the effectiveness of the test , while nolvadex should be used PCT with either HCG or Clomid .


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## ericksonalbert (Apr 2, 2016)

rc771 said:


> i'm running both right now... works great for me.
> 
> clomid 100/100/50/50
> nolva   40/40/20/20



Do you split it up and do 
clomid 50 morning and 50 night
nolva   20 morning and 20 night

Are you taking at the same time? I'm getting ready to start my PCT and want to make sure i do it correctly.


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## flarix (May 31, 2017)

But when taking them do you swallow both together?


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## heavyiron (May 31, 2017)

flarix said:


> But when taking them do you swallow both together?


Its not critical


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## Lovetogetjacked (Jun 1, 2017)

I had an eye injury when I was 3 years old. Have vision in one eye and am Legally blind in the other. 

Would I be smart to avoid Clomid after my first cycle of my life? Which was mild at 525 mg per week of Test Prop. I am thinking a PCT consisting of Nolva and HCG instead if there is a chance Clomid could fuck up my vision.  Considering I can only see out of one eye not sure if the risk would be worth using Clomid since I can't afford to have vision problems.

Anyone have any thoughts?


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## aenergy (Jun 5, 2018)

Lovetogetjacked said:


> I had an eye injury when I was 3 years old. Have vision in one eye and am Legally blind in the other.
> 
> Would I be smart to avoid Clomid after my first cycle of my life? Which was mild at 525 mg per week of Test Prop. I am thinking a PCT consisting of Nolva and HCG instead if there is a chance Clomid could fuck up my vision. Considering I can only see out of one eye not sure if the risk would be worth using Clomid since I can't afford to have vision problems.
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts?


You should do lab tests before any PCT to fix the dosage and to figure out what exactly you need to use on PCT.


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