# The Definitive Pre, During, and Post Workout Nutrition Discussion Thread



## Twin Peak (Sep 21, 2006)

*I am told that this will be moderated, and trolls and morons will be deleted.  Likewise, noise of the sake of noise will be deleted.  What is permitted?  Discussion on the aforementioned typoc from a scientific and/or practical level.  All comments must be back up with reference to *something*.*

"Bro whey rocks!" doesn't work.

"Using whey post workout over three months produced better gains for me and my training partner then a whole food meal..." does work.  So does scientific literature.

Cool?  Oh, and any jokes about Robert are permitted as well.

Shall we kick it off?  My personal opinion, based on limited research I have seen, and anecdotal feedback of my self and many others tells me that FOR BODY COMPOSITION, the following is the best approach for MOST:

Pre = EAAs and a small amount of simple carbs (20g or so).

During = if anything, BCAAs

Post = whey, plus a slow released protein (prefer casien) plus some simple carbs (10-15 grams) plus some slower released carbs.

This is nutrition only, I am not talking about other goodies like CEE, Citruline Malate, NO stuff, and so on.  Nor am I talking energy boosters.


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## P-funk (Sep 21, 2006)

Some research (since TP doesn't like to cite sources, I will do it.  )

Here is one on the before workout shake

Kevin D. Tipton, Blake B. Rasmussen, Sharon L. Miller, Steven E. Wolf, Sharla K. Owens-Stovall, Bart E. Petrini, and Robert R. Wolfe, *Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise*, American Journal of Endocrinological Metabolism, vol. 28, no. 2, pg 197-206, 2001.

he present study was designed to determine whether consumption of an oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement (EAC) before exercise results in a greater anabolic response than supplementation after resistance exercise. Six healthy human subjects participated in two trials in random order, PRE (EAC consumed immediately before exercise), and POST (EAC consumed immediately after exercise). A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine, femoral arteriovenous catheterization, and muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis were used to determine phenylalanine concentrations, enrichments, and net uptake across the leg. Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations were increased by ~130% after drink consumption in both trials. Amino acid delivery to the leg was increased during exercise and remained elevated for the 2 h after exercise in both trials. Delivery of amino acids (amino acid concentration times blood flow) was significantly greater in PRE than in POST during the exercise bout and in the 1st h after exercise (P < 0.05). Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg was greater (P = 0.0002) during PRE (209 ± 42 mg) than during POST (81 ± 19). Phenylalanine disappearance rate, an indicator of muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids, increased after EAC consumption in both trials. *These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.*[/QUOTE]




and here is on study on protein during.


Anantaraman R, Carmines AA, Gaesser GA, Weltman A., *Effects of carbohydrate supplementation on performance during 1 hour of high-intensity exercise*., International Journal of Sports Medicine, volume 16, number 7, pg 461-5, 1991.

The effects of carbohydrate supplementation on high-intensity exercise performance were examined in 5 moderately-trained subjects (age = 28.4 +/- 1.5 yr; ht = 171.0 +/- 4.3 cm; wt = 66.25 +/- 6.32 kg). High-intensity exercise tests (initiated at the power output (PO) associated with 90% VO2 peak [mean = 201 +/- 21 watts] x 60 min, with drop-off in PO allowed over time) were completed under the following randomized double blind conditions: 1) pre-exercise glucose polymer (G)/placebo during exercise (G/P), 2) G pre-exercise and during exercise (G/G), and 3) placebo pre-exercise and during exercise (P/P). Subjects ingested 300 ml of a sweetened placebo or a similarly flavored 10% G solution, immediately prior to and every 15 min during exercise. No differences were observed in PO among the 3 treatments until min 40-60 where PO was greater with G. This resulted in significantly greater total work (and less drop-off in PO) with G (G/P = 619 +/- 234kJ [14.5% lower than the value associated with 201 watts maintained for 60 min (724kJ)], G/G = 599 +/- 235 kJ [17.3% lower than the value associated with 201 watts maintained for 60 min]) compared with placebo (P/P = 560 +/- 198 kJ [22.7% drop-off in average PO]) (p < 0.05). VO2 followed a similar pattern with no difference in VO2 over min 0-40 and significantly higher VO2 in G/P and a trend for higher VO2 in G/G during min 40-60 compared to placebo. *Results of the present study indicate that, compared to placebo, pre-exercise ingestion of G (30 g in 10% solution) results in less drop-off in PO during 1 hour of high-intensity exercise performance, and that no further benefit is observed when the same amount of G is also ingested every 15 min during exercise.*


And one for the post workout shake

Blake B. Rasmussen, Kevin D. Tipton, Sharon L. Miller, Steven E. Wolf, and Robert R. Wolfe, *An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise*, vol. 88, no. 2, 386-392, 2000.

This study was designed to determine the response of muscle protein to the bolus ingestion of a drink containing essential amino acids and carbohydrate after resistance exercise. Six subjects (3 men, 3 women) randomly consumed a treatment drink (6 g essential amino acids, 35 g sucrose) or a flavored placebo drink 1 h or 3 h after a bout of resistance exercise on two separate occasions. We used a three-compartment model for determination of leg muscle protein kinetics. The model involves the infusion of ring-2H5-phenylalanine, femoral arterial and venous blood sampling, and muscle biopsies. Phenylalanine net balance and muscle protein synthesis were significantly increased above the predrink and corresponding placebo value (P < 0.05) when the drink was taken 1 or 3 h after exercise but not when the placebo was ingested at 1 or 3 h. *The response to the amino acid-carbohydrate drink produced similar anabolic responses at 1 and 3 h. Muscle protein breakdown did not change in response to the drink. We conclude that essential amino acids with carbohydrates stimulate muscle protein anabolism by increasing muscle protein synthesis when ingested 1 or 3 h after resistance exercise.*


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## P-funk (Sep 21, 2006)

Here is a good one explaining what is going on post workout

*Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.*

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 21, 2006)

Cool.


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## Trouble (Sep 21, 2006)

Forty percent of your EAAs are glucogenic.  That, plus your simple carbs will hit those who have relatively poor glucose control like a ton of bricks.  They get relatively little energy out of it, but it does incite, lets say, unhappiness, in the gut department.

Also, the retention time of this drink will be relatively short.  Its influence as a deterrent of proteolysis is..what?  

Short-lived, methinks.

I'm with Robert (and some of our friends back at M2), in the belief that BCAAs might be a better source of cell signalling agents for directing energy metabolism during exertion. This would be consumed just before and during workout. A prior meal within a period of one 1.5 hours prior to workout would be needed to supply nutrients in plasma to muscle during workout.

Working presumption: a more sizeable, slower release format of peptides and energy equivalents is preferrable, within a period of approximately 45 min prior to workout, to simply using BCAAs, for those with glucose tolerance issues.

Caveats: time of day and cortisol levels are factors worth considering, as well as type of extertion and its duration, cardiovascular conditioning, insulin sensitivity, hydration status during and afterwards, and reducing equivalent status (to offset ROS and oxidative stress induced pH shifts).


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## P-funk (Sep 21, 2006)

also, I should say, the during.....I would add carbs depending on the goals and duration of the training.  Obviously, this is a BBing site to the BCAAs are probably going to be favored more.  if we are working with athletes and going 1.5-2hrs of training we might throw carbs in there.  Endurance athletes especially are going to want the carbs to have extra energy and help produce kreb cycle intermediates to help faciliate better functioning of the krebs cycle and utilization of fat when necessary.  

I know Dale usually bangs down a carb drink either during or before (accelerade maybe?) his workout.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 21, 2006)

Carbs are much more important for endurance and performance then for bodybuilding.

Sharon, have you ever regularly used EAAs preworkout?  You can literally feel the difference in energy and endurance (yeah, it can cause stomach issues).


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## P-funk (Sep 21, 2006)

Twin Peak said:


> Carbs are much more important for endurance and performance then for bodybuilding.
> 
> Sharon, have you ever regularly used EAAs preworkout?  You can literally feel the difference in energy and endurance (yeah, it can cause stomach issues).



yea, I know.  that is why i was saying if you are lifting for athletic purposes it will be different then if you are lifting to look good in your posing trunks.


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## Trouble (Sep 21, 2006)

Twin Peak said:


> Carbs are much more important for endurance and performance then for bodybuilding.
> 
> Sharon, have you ever regularly used EAAs preworkout?  You can literally feel the difference in energy and endurance (yeah, it can cause stomach issues).



Yes sir,  I did try them.  What I found was:  they were unable to stave off hypoglycemia during hour long workouts.  They caused gut upset because of the their action in situ, in the absence of gut buffering (and gut dumping inhibiting fats and fiber).  In essence, about 20% of these EAAs are known to  bind to key receptors in stomach and ileum that cause both acid and bile acid dumping.  That sir, worsens gastric reflux disease.

But more importantly, some of these amino acids have secondary roles as neurotransmitters - alanine, glycine, and histidine, as well as glutamine and arginine, come to mind.  These amino acids, Steve, are not typical to natural dietary habits. In the mesomorph, they are not problematic and elicit the type response you affirm as desirable.

However, in the ecto- and endomorph, they elicit a very different, and undesirable CNS response.  

In the endomorph, a release of excess insulin from pancreas, and of excess triglycerides from liver.  With that CNS hit and insulin excess, any glucose that is present as simple carbs has a disasterous effect on rebound hyperglycmia and then, within a period of an hour or so, a plunge below baseline plasma glucose to hypoglycemia.  This is precisely the condition that has been reported on several forums (you may recall Prolangtums thread back on M2) when energy drinks with this mixture of aminos and simple glucose where consumed pre workout.

In the ectomorph, an excess flush of acids and without the benefit of food to buffer it, a concommitant release of bile acids as well.  These are emitted through the action of beta-adrenergic receptors.  The ectomorph has exceptional sensitivity to CNS stimulation and impaired uptake (leaky gut syndrome) of nutrients.  While he enjoys full utilization of glucose, normal muscosal cell transport of aminos and glucose does not occur because this type tends to have food move a bit too smartly through the intestinal track.

Both the endo- and ectomorph will suffer frome excess muscle proteolysis to meet energy demands during a longer workout.  Both may suffer from low energy status as a result of your suggested pre-workout supplement recommendation.

For the mesomorph, I concur, your approach is sensible, Steve.  Problem is, the mesomorph does not predominate as the archetype somatype on this and many other forums.


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## P-funk (Sep 21, 2006)

Trouble said:


> Yes sir,  I did try them.  What I found was:  they were unable to stave off hypoglycemia during hour long workouts.  They caused gut upset because of the their action in situ, in the absence of gut buffering (and gut dumping inhibiting fats and fiber).  In essence, about 20% of these EAAs are known to  bind to key receptors in stomach and ileum that cause both acid and bile acid dumping.  That sir, worsens gastric reflux disease.
> 
> But more importantly, some of these amino acids have secondary roles as neurotransmitters - alanine, glycine, and histidine, as well as glutamine and arginine, come to mind.  These amino acids, Steve, are not typical to natural dietary habits. In the mesomorph, they are not problematic and elicit the type response you affirm as desirable.
> 
> ...





can you cite a source that actually goes into the breakdown of how these amino acids are digested, processed and the different effects they have on those three standard body types?  I would like to know what book (or study) you are getting that from.  I have never read much into it but would like to read more.


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## Trouble (Sep 21, 2006)

Hmm.  Yes, I can pull up citations that support what I am talking about for the amino acid action on CNS. Not tonight, its late (later where you are, LOL).  

The insights I provide on CNS involvement in the pathophysiology of endo- and ectomorphs is a bit more involved.  I would have to think on how to present evidence here; its not found in textbooks.  Its just now begun to be supported by micronutrient supplementation studies in the biomedical research lit.


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## P-funk (Sep 21, 2006)

Trouble said:


> Hmm.  Yes, I can pull up citations that support what I am talking about for the amino acid action on CNS. Not tonight, its late (later where you are, LOL).
> 
> The insights I provide on CNS involvement in the pathophysiology of endo- and ectomorphs is a bit more involved.  I would have to think on how to present evidence here; its not found in textbooks.  Its just now begun to be supported by micronutrient supplementation studies in the biomedical research lit.



that would be great.

I may be able to find info on the amino acid action on the CNS in a textbook here.

I am specifically interested in the latter part, the involvement in the pathophyiology of ecto/endmorphs.  I would appreciate ant study or reference you could provide.

thanks,
p


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## Twin Peak (Sep 22, 2006)

Trouble said:


> For the mesomorph, I concur, your approach is sensible, Steve.  Problem is, the mesomorph does not predominate as the archetype somatype on this and many other forums.



As you know, I am not mesomorph.  Neither are the many others who I am thinking of that notice a dramatic difference when using Vendetta (for example).

In fact, I am sipping it right now -- and I am off to train arms.


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## camarosuper6 (Sep 22, 2006)

I feel that I have always neglected pre-workout supplementation rather than post-workout supplementation (post-workout seems to get all the glitz and glitter throughout bb circles).

I have always loved the ECA stack, although I havent used in at all in the past 6 months, and am looking for something more nutritionally sound (although something to add to my intensity and focus would also be grand)

Seems to me that BCAA's are the way to go pre-and during workout routines (will someone please shed some light on what EAA's are?).  

Personally.. my own pre-workout formulation has been a simple carb mixture of both slow and fast release carbohydrates (maybe whole grain mini-wheats with sugar) approx one hour before a workout with a cup of coffee.  But it seems I am missing out on certain aspects to aid my workout.

Suggestions from anyone?


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## P-funk (Sep 22, 2006)

> Seems to me that BCAA's are the way to go pre-and during workout routines (will someone please shed some light on what EAA's are?).



EAAs are Essential Amino Acids.  They are essential because the body cannot synthesize them on its own, so they need to be consumed through our diet.  There are 9 of them, histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine.


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## Arnold (Sep 22, 2006)

camarosuper6 said:


> (will someone please shed some light on what EAA's are?).



*E*ssential *A*mino *A*cids


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## P-funk (Sep 22, 2006)

> Personally.. my own pre-workout formulation has been a simple carb mixture of both slow and fast release carbohydrates (maybe whole grain mini-wheats with sugar) approx one hour before a workout with a cup of coffee. But it seems I am missing out on certain aspects to aid my workout.




I always eat a meal about 45-60min. before my workout too.  I am thinking about possibly switching over to something like a pre-workout drink, such as accelerade, before my training instead of the meal, because sometimes the food feels like it is slowing me down or, it doesn't sit well in the gut.

For what it is worth, I used to also drink BCAAs (ICE brand) during the workout (sipping it).  I never noticed any difference in my performance though (i know....completely anecdotal).  Maybe because I didn't have any carbs with it.  Maybe the accelerade would be a better fit just prior to training.


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## camarosuper6 (Sep 22, 2006)

Thanks for the input.  I was unaware of abbreviations 

But in reality, Im not big on supplements, but would be willing to try something that would seriously aid my workout performance.  I have seen vendetta and a few others (rather pricey)... feedback on any PARTICULAR supps?


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## Arnold (Sep 22, 2006)

camarosuper6 said:


> Thanks for the input.  I was unaware of abbreviations



it's not an abbreviation it is an acronym. 

okay, back to topic.


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## Dale Mabry (Sep 22, 2006)

I am big on the Accelerade, it is pretty good stuff.  I always had a meal 45 minutes or so prior to working out, but it would always make me feel odd, even if it was an hour before.  I tried the protein 45 minutes before and it gave me the shits.

With the Accelerade, I hit half of it up 15 minutes before my warm up and the rest throughout the workout.  Postworkout I hit up Endurox which is essentially a double dosing of Accelereade with a few other things in it, so I am pretty much doing the nutrient timing system thing.  My results are great so far after 2 1/2 months.  They recommend 20g whey 2 hours after a workout, but I don't always get that in, I typically get 20g of protein from food, like beef jerky or something..

I currently have MuscleAde, which is the strength training version of Accelerade, with Caffeine and a couple more aminos, but I am switching back to Accelerade, MuscleAde tastes like shit.

If you want citations, read Nutrient Timing by Ivy and some other dude, I am far too lazy to look for the reference.


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## Trouble (Sep 22, 2006)

So I looked over the Accelerade hype (home page).  It looks like it has some promise, small carb dose (6%) and has protein as well, plus magnesium, and vitamins C and E as antioxidants.  That must mean tocopherol and ascrobate esters, which isn't a bad idea.  It claims to rehydrate and induce recovery, plus replenish glycogen.

I would want to see the ingredients list.

Ingredients: Sucrose, Whey Protein Concentrate, Fructose, Maltodextrin, Citric Acid, Sodium Chloride, Lecithin, Natural Flavor, Magnesium Oxide Vitamin E Acetate, Ascorbic Acid, L-Arginine, Monopotassium phosphate, FD&C Yellow 5, FD&C Yellow 6.

Reformulate it with something like Supercarb, throw in some whey concentrate instead of what is probably isolate, fuck the fructose and maltodextrin, citrate (pH buffering) is good. Sodium chloride, no brainer - but lethicin?  Bang up the choline, for "energy".  Fuckchop logic.  Magnesium oxide is not clever  (wtf?? company doesn't know about mag citrate?), L-arginine - nnooooo (more CNS stimulation through eNOS), phosphate is a buffer (they wouldn't need it if they had the sense not to use the mag citrate), and then yellow dyes to make it pretty.

Nope. Close but no cigar, for product smarts.  

So you are taking in very dilute whey, a little vitamin C and E, magnesium citrate, table salt, a little cheap ass phosphate buffer, really cheap ass fat (lethicin), good ole maltodextrin and sucrose.  Oh yeah, arginine.

20 grams sucrose (21.5 grams carbs), 5 grams protein, 200 mgs sodium, 1 gram of fat, no fiber, 10 mg cholesterol.  120 mostly empty calories.

1.9 lbs, 28 servings, about 13 bucks on sale (not shipped).

If you glucose tolerance is good, this product works.  If not, you're a sucker.


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## Trouble (Sep 22, 2006)

Then I decided to look over the other product mentioned, Vendetta.

Vendetta Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 1.5 Scoops (45g)
Servings Per Container: 20
Amount Per Serving:
Calories 168
Calories from Fat 0
Total Fat 0g
Saturated Fat 0g
Cholesterol 0mg
Total Carbs 29g
Dietary Fiber 0g    
Sugars 13g
Protein 13g
Sodium 120mg        is this really necessary?
Calcium 160mg        
Phosphorus 20mg
L-Leucine 4290mg    BCAA
L-Lysine 2070mg      EAA
L-Valine 1830mg        BCAA
L-Phenylalanine 1607mg  neurotransmitter goodie
L-Threonine 1390mg       EAA
L-Histidine 638mg           EAA
L-Isoleucine 636mg         BCAA
L-Methionine 447mg      finally did something right - big plus
Potassium 150mg           not a bad idea
Magnesium 180mg         not enough to be useful
Vitamin B-6                  also a big plus, probably 100 mgs

Missing:  zinc, some sort of antioxidant.

Cleverness points for: Krebs cycle intermediates succinate, lactate, citrate

Threonine can be degraded to lactate and go into the TCA to form acetyl-CoA, for additional energy, can also form glycine to drive CNS action.

Phenylalanine can be hydroxylated to form tyrosine (neurotransmitters)

Lysine is used to form carnitine, driving TCA metabolism - plus points here.

I would have thrown in cysteine as well, but with methionine there, no problem.

(9 essential amino acids are:   histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, tryptophan, and valine.)

Negative brownie points for histadine, which can form histamine.  Not needed here, really.  

Ingredients:
Sucrose, d-glucose, amino acid blend, natural and artificial colors and flavors, citric acid, magnesium lactate, calcium succinate, mono potassium phosphate, pyridoxine hcl, sodium citrate, sodium chloride, sucralose.

All in all, a better product than Accelerade.  Proportionately more expensive.

20 servings, 2 lbs, 30 bucks (on sale, as was the accelerade)

A little biochemistry:  Glucogenic amino acids are those that give rise to a net production of pyruvate or TCA cycle intermediates, such as a-ketoglutarate or oxaloacetate, all of which are precursors to glucose via gluconeogenesis.

*All amino acids except lysine and leucine are at least partly glucogenic.* Lysine and leucine are the only amino acids that are solely ketogenic, giving rise only to acetylCoA or acetoacetylCoA, neither of which can bring about net glucose production.

A small group of amino acids comprised of isoleucine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and tyrosine give rise to both glucose and fatty acid precursors and are thus characterized as being glucogenic and ketogenic.

So, we have amino acids here that can feed two energy pathways: glucose and fatty acids.   Do we REALLY need glucose to shuttle aminos inot cells?

Lotta hype about this fact.  For fast absorption...maaayybee.  BUt lets face it, unless you are doing cardio, no.  The energy you largely need is already stored and ready to go.  

Do you need calories that are fairly fast acting to avoid hypoglycemia.

Yuppers!  If you have problems with hydration for hard cardio (HITT) and sprints, use these products.

For arm exercises??  You gotta be outta your fucking mind.


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## P-funk (Sep 22, 2006)

Dale Mabry said:


> I am big on the Accelerade, it is pretty good stuff.  I always had a meal 45 minutes or so prior to working out, but it would always make me feel odd, even if it was an hour before.  I tried the protein 45 minutes before and it gave me the shits.
> 
> With the Accelerade, I hit half of it up 15 minutes before my warm up and the rest throughout the workout.  Postworkout I hit up Endurox which is essentially a double dosing of Accelereade with a few other things in it, so I am pretty much doing the nutrient timing system thing.  My results are great so far after 2 1/2 months.  They recommend 20g whey 2 hours after a workout, but I don't always get that in, I typically get 20g of protein from food, like beef jerky or something..
> 
> ...





How much protein is in the Endurox?  What type of protein is it?  Whey?  A blend?


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## Dale Mabry (Sep 22, 2006)

12g whey concentrate.  I think they are reformulating again, they have separate products for strength training and endurance.  I actually like the Accelerade/Endurox better than the MuscleAde/Whatever the hell it's called.


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## P-funk (Sep 22, 2006)

that is such a small amount of whey.  Are they reformulating it to have more protein?  Or, is that why Ivy recommends the 20g of whey 2 hours after?


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## Dale Mabry (Sep 22, 2006)

P-funk said:


> that is such a small amount of whey.  Are they reformulating it to have more protein?  Or, is that why Ivy recommends the 20g of whey 2 hours after?



The thought is that more carb immediately after blunts cortisol, and leads to a better hormonal profile than with more protein.  2 hours later you load up on the protein because the body is at a better status to utilize it.


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## Trouble (Sep 22, 2006)

How does more carbs after a workout blunt cortisol if you can't use the carbs effectively?   BCAAs have been shown to blunt cortisol. Glucose??  Maybe if it keeps you from a blood sugar crash.  That presumes, like I said, that you can utilize glucose correctly.  That wouldn't be 2/3rds of our general population, and probably not more than 30-40% of our regular forum members.  Quick assay of members over at M2 about a year ago. Most couldn't handle anything more than a small meal without having significant blood sugar problems.

You get plenty of glucose cranked out from ordinary whey blends (not just concentrate or isolate, you want both for parsed delivery of aminos and also immune regulating proteins) without having to add glucose to it. 

But we're talking about pre-WO supplements.

Dales got a problem with pre-WO whey.  Maybe it hits his stomach CNS receptors like a ton of bricks, causes nausea.  Maybe it wouldn't if he used it an hour before and added a little fiber (not a lot, a small amount) and oil to stop gastric dumping.

I know lots of folks can't do a serious cardio WO with a full stomach.  For him, this approach of small amount of carbs and aminos must make sense. 

I also recall him making a statement about his client training schedule being somewhat fucked, in that it interfered with him getting good sleep.  Not sure just how badly that screws with his CNS function and digestion..but you know, it does have an effect.

I actually like that Vendetta formula, but I would use it for cardio. I would never just use BCAAs before a workout, thats not going to do much for staving off hypoglycemia (mostly because you can't get very much into solution at any one time).

Kinda weird.  I naturally presume that most folks who are doing a primarily anaerboic workout would be using a whey shake about 1 hour or so before a workout, with something to keep it from whizzing thru the intestines.  The glutamine, readily oxidized to glutamate, hits the NMDA receptors hard, and causes the shits that Dale mentions.  You don't get the shits if you use a little fiber and oil to absorb and slow down the way these compounds enter intestinal mucosal cells.

Its why you can also use larger shakes and get a much better absorption rate than you would if just used the shakes as is (plain whey plus dextrose or the somewhat idiotic approach of adding oats, from which much fo the useful fiber and micronutrients are stripped out when the bran outer coating is removed).

Thus, you can train your gut to absorb and utilize protein loads well in excess of 40-50 grams of whey.  You choose your whey types, and you slow down processing, plus you deliver much needed micronutrients and mixed fiber types with it.   Again, we are talking about post WO shakes.

PreWO is a tricky situation.  Smaller shakes. Still parsed,  with enough caloric load to sustain someone training hard for an hour or more.


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## Dale Mabry (Sep 22, 2006)

I have no scheduling problem, I get 8 a night, minimum of 7.

Performance-wise, I have found nothing better than Accelerade pre workout, but as I have said, I tried regular food, protein shake, and Accelerade.  I am sure there may be a better alternative, but most of the research done up until and after Nutrient Timing, points towards high GI carb with low protein pre-workout.  Again, I am not worried about physique so much as performance.  I certainly don't believe all that needs to be known is known, though.


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## Trouble (Sep 22, 2006)

Also, there is a certain amount of retail bullshit going on here with respect to hydration during a strength training workout.  A water bottle seems to suffice, hunky dory.  

Most who do serious cardio use a water bottle and maybe a little electrolytes added.  Do you need an electrolyte  and glucose sports drink for a 20-35 or 40 min workout, your average cardio bout, if you have a water bottle?  Maybe in intense heat if you are sweating like a pig.  Otherwise??  (this presumes you are using some sort of nutrient loading before workout).


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## Trouble (Sep 22, 2006)

Dale, those drinks were designed for endurance sports, not for lifting.

We are talking about a strength training workout, aren't we???  Beyond the first few dozen seconds, what exactly do you think you are using for energy in lift??  You want some glucose to help keep the body from going into the shitter (and start eating protein) during heavy exertion (keeps non muscle cells running, along with brain).  You also are getting some replenishment of glucose in muscle cells while working out, but you can get that from glucogenic aminos and slower acting carbs as well.  The BCAAs are slowing proteolysis (which does occur), providing some glucose, and also helping to blunt cortisol rise.  I don't see who an endurance sports drink of primarily glucose and electolytes is addressing the physiology demands of an anaerobic workout.


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## Dale Mabry (Sep 22, 2006)

Water doesn't blunt cortisol...

During recovery, glycolysis is used to regenerate ATP.  Sure, BCAAs could be used, but that isn't a very efficient process when you can just have glucose available...

The nutrient timing stuff is wrt endurance AND strength training.  Most of the studies cited in it used strength training as the method of training in the experimental design.  It compared water, a protein drink and the carb/protein mix.  They were performed at University, sure products came out, but I am fairly certain a University isn't going to risk FDA compliance to sell a supplement, and full financial disclosure would be required to the IRB.


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## Trouble (Sep 22, 2006)

The smallest grant programs at the NIH are for sports nutrition and sports physiology.  The Universities will pimp themselves out to do these so called studies in a heartbeat.  Its really, really fucking hard to get grant money these days in non hardcore medicine grant programs. 

LMAO!!  Who the fuck do you think is going to "evaluate" the authenticity of these studies cited on this Accelerade website??

They're all general studies.  The science is MINIMAL.  These are not refereed hardcore journal articles.  This is what we call "soft science".   Even I have, from time to time, done soft science to help provide starter data for a hardcore grant proposal project.

BTW, dehydration does cause a rise in cortisol, so water used for hydration can be said to reduce cortisol response.  But I didn't make that claim in any of my posts.  

Also, the FDA doesn't care fuck all about these products, as long as they don't claim to treat a disease.  They are over the counter electrolyte and sugar supplements.  Not sure what regulations you are citing here. Labeling??


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## Gordo (Sep 23, 2006)

> I'm with Robert (and some of our friends back at M2), in the belief that BCAAs might be a better source of cell signalling agents for directing energy metabolism during exertion. This would be consumed just before and during workout. A prior meal within a period of one 1.5 hours prior to workout would be needed to supply nutrients in plasma to muscle during workout.
> 
> Working presumption: a more sizeable, slower release format of peptides and energy equivalents is preferrable, within a period of approximately 45 min prior to workout, to simply using BCAAs, for those with glucose tolerance issues.




so in a nutshell w.r.t strength training you are suggesting:

prior: small meal ~60min out (whey + oat bran for instance...maybe a little fat) + some BCAA's

during: BCAA's

post: not clear on this.... just a meal (complex carb + slow digesting protein perhaps)....forget the Whey + fast carb hype/hooplah?

Just ran a marathon, played an intense pro level hockey game or trained for 4 hours....drink an electrolyte replenishment drink, otherwise....watch your waistline expand.


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## Dale Mabry (Sep 23, 2006)

Trouble said:


> The smallest grant programs at the NIH are for sports nutrition and sports physiology.  The Universities will pimp themselves out to do these so called studies in a heartbeat.  Its really, really fucking hard to get grant money these days in non hardcore medicine grant programs.
> 
> LMAO!!  Who the fuck do you think is going to "evaluate" the authenticity of these studies cited on this Accelerade website??
> 
> ...




A GCP University cannot conduct non-GCP compliant clinical trials if they want NIH grants.  Maybe 5-10 years ago they could, but not anymore.  If I have a fully-funded NIH grant for cancer research, and the FDA auditor wants to go through the offices or clinics in OB/GYN, they can, it actually happened when I worked in OB/GYN.  They went through my trial binder to make sure all the proper forms (FDA-1572, IND/IDE) were filled out and made sure all files were locked in a cabinet and they were not even there for my study.

The second the IRB receives a financial disclosure form indicating the researcher has a vested interest in the study, the compliance office is up their ass.

Simply put, a University isn't going to lose $15 million dollars in NIH grants because a researcher wants to sell a $20 supplement.

I don't get where you see the science is minimal, the book has like 200 citations from peer-reviewed journals, of which maybe 15 are from the authors.  That is, if you consider the Journal of Nutrition, Journal of Applied Phys, American Journal of Phys, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, and Medicine and Science in Sport and Exercise, among others, as scientific peer-reviewed journals.  I would, in fact, consider it a very good example of the empirical method.  Notice a trend in research, form a hypothesis, test it out, reformulate, test it out again, repeat as necessary.

I wasn't saying you said water blunts cortisol, what I was trying to say is that a carb/protein drink will blunt cortisol better than water in response to the claim that water is as effective at hydration.  Hydration isn't the only concern during exercise, which was my point.


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## P-funk (Sep 23, 2006)

Ivy is a really good guy on the topic of sports nutrition.

Dale, can you post up some of the references (title, authors, journal, volume, number, date) so that i can see if I can get some of the abstracts.  I may be able to get some of the full studies because I have access to thousands of journals for free through my school data base.


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## fufu (Sep 23, 2006)

This thread rocks.


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## viet_jon (Sep 23, 2006)

fufu said:


> This thread rocks.



agreed 100%.
Anxious to see the rest of it.


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## Trouble (Sep 23, 2006)

I was talking about the Accelerated website and their "research" page.   

I have b_ no idea of the text source_ you are talking about, Dale.  You don't bother to mention names. 

?  http://www.amazon.com/Nutrient-Timing-Future-Sports-Nutrition/dp/1591201411? 

Our communication wires got crossed.  I agree, no larger university would comprise its research dollars spent on NIH projects by sloppy paper handling of records persuant to the execution of NIH funded projects.  *The NIH does NOT dictate to universities their sources of extramural research activities that investigators may or maynot engage in*. The experience you cite is common to any of us who have received federal grant dollars - its not only the NIH that makes demands on following code on paperwork (14 pages of standard boilerplate went on each and every grant proposal I submitted at my last insititution, another institution may cover its legal ass even more cautiously for projects requiring human subjects or animals).

Hydration stress is a form of stress.  Cortisol is a form of stress response.  You are mixing apples and oranges.

Gordo, I am saying that, unless your glucose tolerance is spot on, supplying fast release glucose as part of a pre-workout drink isn't a gpod idea.  You will supply *low dose* trickle of glucose via amino acid conversion within a whey drink if its consumed 45 min- 1 hour before exertion.  How well you utilize that glucose in response to energy demand depends on your ability to shuttle it into cells and transport to the appropriate intracellular locations for aerobic metabolism.  

Recent studies of marathon running suggests that prolonged intense exertion induces cortisol regardless of pre WO supplementation. Supplementation may blunt the response, but the degree of response is dictated by HPA NE sensitivity, hydration and glucose status during and immediately after exertion, and exertion characteristics, coupled with energy metabolism efficiency (including recent history).


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## P-funk (Sep 23, 2006)

> Recent studies of marathon running suggests that prolonged intense exertion induces cortisol regardless of pre WO supplementation. Supplementation may blunt the response, but the degree of response is dictated by HPA NE sensitivity, hydration and glucose status during and immediately after exertion, and exertion characteristics, coupled with energy metabolism efficiency (including recent history).



Do you have a cite to that?

the idea of a pre exercise carb load prior to a marathon, or during,  has more to do with supplying the body with large amounts of energy than it does with blunting cortisol during the race itself.


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## Trouble (Sep 23, 2006)

http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/40/6/610

The response of the novel pro-inflammatory molecules S100A8/A9 to exercise.
 Int J Sports Med. 2006 Sep;27(9):751-8.

Risk of Upper Respiratory Tract Infection in Athletes: An Epidemiologic and Immunologic Perspective. J Athl Train. 1997 Oct;32(4):344-349.

A half-marathon and a marathon run induce oxidative DNA damage, reduce antioxidant capacity to protect DNA against damage and modify immune function in hobby runners.  Redox Rep. 2005;10(6):325-31.

Cortisol response to exercise and post-exercise suppression of blood lymphocyte subset counts.   Int J Sports Med. 1996 Nov;17(8):597-603. 

The effects of plasma cortisol elevation on total and differential leukocyte counts in response to heavy-resistance exercise. Eur J Appl Physiol Occup Physiol. 1996;73(1-2):93-7.

Many other related papers.  Last two indicate differential cortisol response among test populations are linked to the patterns of leukocyte counts (including pathologic B-cell differentiation associated with unusual liver lipid profiles - this is discussed elsewhere in more recent (2005) research lit that I have following for Devlin).


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## P-funk (Sep 23, 2006)

where in any of those studies does it talk about pre-exercise supplementation blunting cortisol?

yes, running a marathon places the body under stress.

Only one of your studies even had marathon runners.  The other was on a UBE.


Regardless, you need to be loading up on carbs if you are going to do any type of proplonged exercises like run a marathon.  You would be crazy not to!


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## Gordo (Sep 23, 2006)

Trouble said:


> Gordo, I am saying that, unless your glucose tolerance is spot on, supplying fast release glucose as part of a pre-workout drink isn't a gpod idea.  You will supply *low dose* trickle of glucose via amino acid conversion within a whey drink if its consumed 45 min- 1 hour before exertion.  How well you utilize that glucose in response to energy demand depends on your ability to shuttle it into cells and transport to the appropriate intracellular locations for aerobic metabolism.
> 
> Recent studies of marathon running suggests that prolonged intense exertion induces cortisol regardless of pre WO supplementation. Supplementation may blunt the response, but the degree of response is dictated by HPA NE sensitivity, hydration and glucose status during and immediately after exertion, and exertion characteristics, coupled with energy metabolism efficiency (including recent history).



Okay got it.



> drink an electrolyte replenishment drink, otherwise....watch your waistline expand.



Whoops that didn't come out right....what I was inferring was that you felt that an electrolyte drink is not utilized properly for strength training puposes or is simply not required for strength training purposes (I would tend to agree). However, endurance....most definitely and perhaps optimal.


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## Trouble (Sep 23, 2006)

Patrick, conversation got sidelined here: the mention of excess stress (cortisol) not being blunted no matter what the pre-event supplementation regimine is valid, since that supplementation benefit will typically expire long before the event is completed.

This is a logical conclusion, supported by numerous studies of excessive immune system perturbation from prolonged intense exertion effort.

This forum is not about edurance training and endurance sports, its about strength training.  Perhaps it might be best that comments made about exertion types not common to strength training programs be noted in context to avoid confusion.


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## P-funk (Sep 23, 2006)

Trouble said:


> Patrick, conversation got sidelined here: the mention of excess stress (cortisol) not being blunted no matter what the pre-event supplementation regimine is valid, since that supplementation benefit will typically expire long before the event is completed.
> 
> This is a logical conclusion, supported by numerous studies of excessive immune system perturbation from prolonged intense exertion effort.
> 
> This forum is not about edurance training and endurance sports, its about strength training.  Perhaps it might be best that comments made about exertion types not common to strength training programs be noted in context to avoid confusion.



Oh, don't worry, lol....I am not about endurance training.  

I just thought it started as pre/during/post workout nutrition for BBers or those physique minded, then it moved towards some strength training and then we started to get on topic of marathons and endurance training so I thought it was headed that way.


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## Gordo (Sep 24, 2006)

Any thoughts on Citrulline malate in Pre/workout drinks? A natural BBr I know  suggests this and BCAA's as the definitive pre and workout supp.

Some literature:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1930358&dopt=Citation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=12145119&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=1930358&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum
http://bjsm.bmjjournals.com/cgi/rep...late activity: study of blood lactate levels"


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## Twin Peak (Sep 24, 2006)

P-funk said:


> Oh, don't worry, lol....I am not about endurance training.
> 
> I just thought it started as pre/during/post workout nutrition for BBers or those physique minded, then it moved towards some strength training and then we started to get on topic of marathons and endurance training so I thought it was headed that way.



Correct, we were talking about physique, not strength or endurance.


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## Gordo (Sep 24, 2006)

Okay then a quick question....does anyone think that a person would have to alter the workout nutrition based on the time of day when you workout? Especially with respect to cortisol reponse and it's effects on body composition?

ie: what is effective in the morning after 7- 8 hours of sleep and no additional feeding past bedtime versus several meals leading up to an evening workout?

as an example


> Shall we kick it off? My personal opinion, based on limited research I have seen, and anecdotal feedback of my self and many others tells me that FOR BODY COMPOSITION, the following is the best approach for MOST:
> 
> Pre = EAAs and a small amount of simple carbs (20g or so).
> 
> ...



Is that for a morning workout or evening workout? Does anyone think it would matter? Just curious?


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## Twin Peak (Sep 24, 2006)

I lift in the morning.  But it would be fine for a midday workout if you haven't eaten for a few hours.


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## P-funk (Sep 24, 2006)

Twin Peak said:


> Correct, we were talking about physique, not strength or endurance.



I guess we are talking about physique.  I thought we were just talking about exercise in general....no matter what the goal.  But, I guess I am wrong.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 24, 2006)

P-funk said:


> I guess we are talking about physique.  I thought we were just talking about exercise in general....no matter what the goal.  But, I guess I am wrong.



We can talk about anything we want, its a discussion forum.  But my original post and recommendation was solely in regards to physique.  My recommendations would vary depending on goal.


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## Trouble (Sep 24, 2006)

Twin Peak said:


> Correct, we were talking about physique, not strength or endurance.



Negatory.  We are talking about exertion.  Marathon running and extreme intensity/high volume training bear some semblence to each other, in terms of the consequences of elevated insulin response in the post exertion window.

We are talking about strength training or at least, I am.  I also believe it prudent for us to include moderate cardio training.  One chooses pre-workout supplements accordingly.  Our point is to differentiate among various types of pre-workout supplements and to help readers understand the relationship between energetic, anabolic, and recovery/repair cellular responses and the action of various pre-workout supplements that influence performance and exertion result.


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## Trouble (Sep 24, 2006)

Gordo said:


> Any thoughts on Citrulline malate in Pre/workout drinks?




To answer this question, we need to consider the actions of citrulline.  The first is its action as a neurochemical.

Nitric Oxide and glutamate neurotransmitter receptors

A. Glutamate Receptors:* ligand gated ion channels *
    2 types, characterized by pharmacology:

    a. NMDA: Na+ and Ca+2, slow response, requires glutamate and glycine
     b. Kainate: Na+, fast response, requires glutamate only

     (both kinds co-mingle in same postsynaptic membrane)

B. nitric oxide (NO)
    small, highly diffusible substrate

   N-hydroxy-L-arginine > NO + L-cirtulline by NOS (nitric oxide synthetase)

   NO produced in POST-synaptic cell

   NOS activated by Ca+2 through NMDA receptor

Oh fucking oh.  Ca+2 is modulated by glutmate/NMDA receptors in brain and CNS..

So, for CNS nerve activity in brain and body, two types of chemistry drive neurochemistry:  ATP and Ca+2, for the two dominant ion-gated channel types (ACh = acetylcholine and glutamate)

Now comes the hammer: citrulline, arginine and glutamate metabolism are HIGHLY interconnected.  From wikipedia:

"Arginine is synthesized from citrulline by the sequential action of the cytosolic enzymes argininosuccinate synthetase (ASS) and argininosuccinate lyase (ASL). *This is energetically costly, as the synthesis of each molecule of argininosuccinate requires hydrolysis of adenosine triphosphate (ATP) to adenosine monophosphate (AMP); i.e., two ATP equivalents.*

*important note: if you have FUCKED UP GLUCOS METABOLISM, you are ATP IMPAIRED.  THIS DIRECTLY EFFECTS ARGININE <--> CITRULLINE <---> GLUTAMATE interconversion.   (leads to a pile up citrulline and glutamate)

Citrulline can be derived from multiple sources:

    * from arginine via nitric oxide synthase (NOS);
    * from ornithine via catabolism of proline or glutamine/glutamate;
    * from asymmetric dimethylarginine (ADMA) via DDAH.

*The pathways linking arginine, glutamine, and proline are bidirectional*. Thus, the net utilization or production of these amino acids is highly dependent on cell type and local metabolic demands.

On a whole-body basis, synthesis of arginine occurs principally via the intestinal???renal axis, *wherein epithelial cells of the small intestine, which produce citrulline primarily from glutamine and glutamate, *collaborate with the proximal tubule cells of the kidney, which extract citrulline from the circulation and convert it to arginine, which is returned to the circulation. *Consequently, impairment of small bowel or renal function can reduce endogenous arginine synthesis, thereby increasing the dietary requirement.*

ONE FUCKING HALF OF THE ADULT POPULATION HAS THIS PROBLEM BY AGE 40 and > 20% HAVE THIS PROBLEM IN THEIR EARLY 20.  Arginine/citrulline supplementation is a double edged sword.  If YOU FUCKING CAN"T CONVERT CITRULLINE TO ARGININE, YOU CRANK OUT MEGA QUANTITIES OF GLUTAMATE.  

You also upregulate ACh activity, and thus ---> excitotoxic neurochemistry in brain and body.  This has important consequences.  

--> Kenwood knows this, this is the problem he is having with his NO-inducer addiction.

Synthesis of arginine from citrulline also occurs at a low level in many other cells, and cellular capacity for arginine synthesis can be markedly increased under circumstances that also induce iNOS. 

Thus, citrulline, a coproduct of the NOS-catalyzed reaction, can be recycled to arginine in a pathway known as the *citrulline-NO or arginine-citrulline pathway.*  I mention this above, in the CNS activation discussion.

"This is demonstrated by the fact that in many cell types, citrulline can substitute for arginine to some degree in supporting NO synthesis. However, recycling is not quantitative because citrulline accumulates along with nitrate and nitrite, the stable end-products of NO, in NO-producing cells "

Bottom line: for a fairly large subset of the population with normal glucose metabolism and a lack of predominating excitatory (cause by an apparent inborn problem with glutamate translocation and norepinephrine supersensitivity to stress, which releases glutamte and Ca+2 in excessive quantities in the brain, gut, kidneys and body CNS), then citrulline supplementation will be salutory - in ortherwords, beneficial, when not used excessively.

For a smaller subset of the population that has excitatory neurochemical issues, this is not good chemical karma.  At best, it should be used sparingly, at worst, avoided completely.

I hope you can follow this argument. Its an important one to consider for use of both NO-inducers and citrulline malate.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 24, 2006)

Trouble said:


> Negatory.  We are talking about exertion.  Marathon running and extreme intensity/high volume training bear some semblence to each other, in terms of the consequences of elevated insulin response in the post exertion window.
> 
> We are talking about strength training or at least, I am.  I also believe it prudent for us to include moderate cardio training.  One chooses pre-workout supplements accordingly.  Our point is to differentiate among various types of pre-workout supplements and to help readers understand the relationship between energetic, anabolic, and recovery/repair cellular responses and the action of various pre-workout supplements that influence performance and exertion result.



Me thinks you are forgetting who started this thread.  Go check. 

Again, I would make different PRACTICAL recommendations for different athletes, with different somatotypes.


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## Trouble (Sep 24, 2006)

Twin Peak said:


> I would make different PRACTICAL recommendations for different athletes, with different somatotypes.



Agreed.  I think we are making the same point, Steve, except that in order for strength athletes to hit performance marks, they need to have their glucose tolerance in hand, and that requires cardiovascular conditioning workouts.

Strength and endurance are two different animals.  Strength and cardio conditioning are part of the same training coin for strength (and some track and field event) athletes.

Gordo has brought up a good point on cortisol and time of day effects on training and supplementation.

Worth discussing, yes or no?


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## Twin Peak (Sep 24, 2006)

Its not terribly exciting.  I think the timing of your workouts is really less important.  Some train better early, some train better late in the day.  I have trained a 5am, 9am, 1pm, 7pm, and even later for stints.  Unless you are eating right before the gym, supplementation can and should be close to the same for OPTIMAL results.

Again, when physique is not the primary goal, athletes should be consuming more carbs.  The types of carbs and the amounts depend on somatotypes, but you want carbs available pre (to use) and post (to replensih).

I am not terrible bothered by the elevated cortisol from the physical stress of training.  Unless you are talking about marathons, or marathon workouts, this is a normal reaction to a normal environmental stress.  Its part of growth and recovery.


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## BigDyl (Sep 24, 2006)

Questions:


CEE should be Pre WO, Post WO, or Both?
Fast Carbs should be Pre WO, Post WO, or Both?
Protein should be Pre WO, Post WO, or Both?
Slow Carbs should be Pre WO, Post WO, or Both?
Other Supps should be Pre WO, Post WO, or Both?

I'm guessing the answer is both to all of the questions.


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## Trouble (Sep 24, 2006)

TP: Gross oversimilification on cortisol and insulin effects.  Physique, sir, is that which you attain FROM training.  You either encourage Type I (endurance, with low priority on mass and strength), for equal measure of Type I and mixed type II (mixture of strength and hypertrophy) or you train for predominantly type II (strength, PL).  You eat and train accordingly.

You train best at the hour of the day that suits your energy/chronotype.  Nightowls who push their bodyclocks back will carry a flatter and broader peak of cortisol in the morning, and will have a brief energy lag in afternoon, with an energy rise in evening.  No brainer when they should workout.

Earlybirds who keep to a more normal sleep schedule, encourage an earlier, more abrupt rise, and sharper peaked cortisol release pattern, with a much steeper decay, more normal energy patterns throughout the afternoon, and have less energy in the evening hours.

Cortisol response threshold (from training, the amount of excess stress allowed before cortisol excess reduces recovery efficiency) varies by chronotype.  Chronotype directly effects energy metabolism efficiency and CNS baseline response (highly sensitive to stress versus relatively nonsensitive, with respect to NE release), and also effects acetylcholine baseline as well (therefore, it also affects aggression and irritability, and also suseptabilit to CNS damage from oxidative stress during workouts).

So we have a basic difference of opinion on the value of accounting for innate cortisol response to training, training time of day, and influence of circadian rhythms/lifestyle.  I submit that these are important factors and should be considered alongside cardiovascular training, macro- and micronutrient supply by diet (with careful attention to metabolic type) and stress management (rest, relaxation, and stress reduction).


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## Trouble (Sep 24, 2006)

BigDyl said:


> Questions:
> 
> 
> CEE should be Pre WO, Post WO, or* Both*?
> ...



*Fast carbs should be used in very limited doses for insulin insensitive types.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 25, 2006)

Trouble said:


> TP: Gross oversimilification on cortisol and insulin effects.



Did you expect anything less?  Practically speaking -- I still maintain I a right.


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## Gordo (Sep 25, 2006)

Trouble said:


> To answer this question, we need to consider the actions of citrulline...
> 
> Bottom line: for a fairly large subset of the population with normal glucose metabolism and a lack of predominating excitatory (cause by an apparent inborn problem with glutamate translocation and norepinephrine supersensitivity to stress, which releases glutamte and Ca+2 in excessive quantities in the brain, gut, kidneys and body CNS), then citrulline supplementation will be salutory - in ortherwords, beneficial, when not used excessively.
> 
> ...



Yowza, thanks for the indepth, slightly mind-cramping answer 

So for some, what's supposed to bring intensity to the gym is actually robbing you of your energy stores?
So how does one figure out what their glucose sensitivty is like? Other than a glucose monitor and fasted and non-fasted testing, I can't see any other way.

================================
I defintely adapted to my a.m. workouts, personally. By evening I can literally feel my body throttle down.

However I have to eat in the morning prior to my workouts otherwise a fasted literally makes me feel ill. I look white, get light-headed and kind feel like crap in general (low blood sugar at that point I'm guessing). Working out on a full stomach is less problematic for me. Ditto with cardio of all types.

When I used to workout in the evening, so long as my regular meals were setup okay...there was no real pre-requiste for an intentional preworkout nutrition. Mind you I guess when eating every 3 or so hours it falls under pre-workout simply because of timing.

Bottom line for me is a fasted workout is a no-no.


I will say how I felt after workouts in the p.m. is a lot different than the a.m. Evening workouts, I didn't feel like I needed much if any PWO followup. A.M. workouts...I do feel a need for immediate PWO replenishment. Nothing scientific to back that up though, just a 'feel' thing.


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## ZECH (Sep 25, 2006)

Good discussion so far.............

I think we need to primarily concentrate on Physique/strength training. We have very few people that are into endurance sports. This is a BB forum and I think that strength training goes in hand with BB(type I and II) if you want to get stronger/bigger. Do we have any pure PL's here?? I don't think we do?
I also think we need to hit more on glucose tolerance/performance and cardiovascular issues.


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## Dale Mabry (Sep 26, 2006)

Here is a link discussing the muscle building properties of nutrient timing...

http://69.94.64.50/poweringmuscles.com/article.php?article_id=105


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## Twin Peak (Oct 15, 2006)

dg806 said:


> Good discussion so far.............
> 
> I think we need to primarily concentrate on Physique/strength training. We have very few people that are into endurance sports. This is a BB forum and I think that strength training goes in hand with BB(type I and II) if you want to get stronger/bigger. Do we have any pure PL's here?? I don't think we do?
> I also think we need to hit more on glucose tolerance/performance and cardiovascular issues.



Way to kill the thread.


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## emitecaps (Oct 23, 2006)

Perhaps your refusal to acknowledge the importance of cortisol helped kill the thread. Seems like trouble lost interest thereafter. I would still liek to know her views even if others don't. 

I'm wondering what carb and protein sources she recommends for pre during and post workout. Timing too. Any protocol recommended for a ecto or meso lifting in the morning, say an hour after waking up.


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## ZECH (Oct 27, 2006)

Twin Peak said:


> Way to kill the thread.



How so?


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## tucker01 (Oct 29, 2006)

some more



> Independent and combined effects of liquid carbohydrate/essential amino acid ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training in untrained men.
> 
> Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, Marino FE.
> 
> ...


and



> * Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects *
> 
> * René Koopman,1 Anton J. M. Wagenmakers,4 Ralph J. F. Manders,1 Antoine H. G. Zorenc,1 Joan M. G. Senden,1 Marchel Gorselink,3 Hans A. Keizer,2 and Luc J. C. van Loon1,2 * _ Departments of 1Human Biology and 2Movement Sciences, Nutrition Research Institute Maastricht, Maastricht University, Maastricht; 3Numico Research BV, Wageningen, The Netherlands; and 4School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Birmingham, United Kingdom _
> Submitted  1 September 2004  ; accepted in final form 22 November 2004
> ...


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## tucker01 (Oct 29, 2006)

> Eur J Appl Physiol. 2006 Aug;97(6):664-72. Epub 2005 Oct 29.
> 
> Effects of dietary leucine supplementation on exercise performance.
> 
> ...


.


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## cman (Oct 29, 2006)

Trouble said:


> Yes sir, I did try them. What I found was: they were unable to stave off hypoglycemia during hour long workouts. They caused gut upset because of the their action in situ, in the absence of gut buffering (and gut dumping inhibiting fats and fiber). In essence, about 20% of these EAAs are known to bind to key receptors in stomach and ileum that cause both acid and bile acid dumping. That sir, worsens gastric reflux disease.
> 
> But more importantly, some of these amino acids have secondary roles as neurotransmitters - alanine, glycine, and histidine, as well as glutamine and arginine, come to mind. These amino acids, Steve, are not typical to natural dietary habits. In the mesomorph, they are not problematic and elicit the type response you affirm as desirable.
> 
> ...


Alot of that went over my head. But, I would like your help in this area. If I start a new thread will you help me work thru some things. I recently started a somewhat mild cycle and have noticed my blood sugar goes low at work now if I drink coffee. not sure what is going on with that.  also O have heard so many different things on this subject I am getting confused.


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## Little Wing (Oct 29, 2006)

probably more than 90% of this thread is over my head. the last of my excess fat is melting away and i want to try some supplements. i have no idea where to start. my workouts are not perfect but my body is staying sore enough so i know my efforts are being rewarded. arms, butt, thighs, calves getting harder. i want to feed my body not fuck with it if that makes sense. where should i start? which products do you feel are essential?


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## P-funk (Oct 29, 2006)

Little Wing said:


> probably more than 90% of this thread is over my head. the last of my excess fat is melting away and i want to try some supplements. i have no idea where to start. my workouts are not perfect but my body is staying sore enough so i know my efforts are being rewarded. arms, butt, thighs, calves getting harder. i want to feed my body not fuck with it if that makes sense. where should i start? which products do you feel are essential?



1) soreness is not the best indicator of a workout.  Also, the contiuned trauma might be a sign that your body needs a back off week to enhance recovery and allow new levels of fitness to manifest themself.

2) I think you should start with just some whey protein and a slower digesting carbohydrate (like oatmeal).  What are you currently eating post workout?


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## Little Wing (Oct 29, 2006)

i'm not really _sore_ i just feel the parts of my body i'm calling on to do the workouts. don't know how to describe it. 

after a work out i usually eat... nothing. i drink diluted juice and wonder what my body can do with the workout when i don't eat red meat. 

i eat oatmeal daily with fruit and splash of cream for fat. beans, some cheese, tons of egg whites, chicken, fish, brown rice and sweet potato but quite frankly i'm curious about the idea of whey protein and such because i end up feeling too full trying to get everything i need with food and once my fat is gone i'm going to be a beanpole if i can't eat enough.


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## P-funk (Oct 29, 2006)

diluted juice?  You need to get some protein in and drop the juice in favor of some sort of slower digesting carbohydrate.


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## Little Wing (Oct 29, 2006)

yea i'm looking at the different types of whey now. i know some flavors people end up hating so i'll order two flavors to start. all the whey woman sounds good. thanks. time to get my books back out. is Will Brink a good guy to listen to?


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## Little Wing (Oct 29, 2006)

thanks.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 30, 2006)

emitecaps said:


> Perhaps your refusal to acknowledge the importance of cortisol helped kill the thread. Seems like trouble lost interest thereafter. I would still liek to know her views even if others don't.
> 
> I'm wondering what carb and protein sources she recommends for pre during and post workout. Timing too. Any protocol recommended for a ecto or meso lifting in the morning, say an hour after waking up.



And did you register her just to say that?  Cool!  My "refusal"?  LOL, you are a funny person.  Now grow up.

====================

DG -- I was kidding man.


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## emitecaps (Oct 30, 2006)

You didn't want to discuss how cortisol levels factored in for whatever reason. I think it's an important aspect to take into consideration but perhaps through supplementation cortisol levels aren't an issue for you. You blamed someone for killing the thread so I did the same. Should've used smilies I guess. But no hard feelings.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 31, 2006)

emitecaps said:


> You didn't want to discuss how cortisol levels factored in for whatever reason. I think it's an important aspect to take into consideration but perhaps through supplementation cortisol levels aren't an issue for you. You blamed someone for killing the thread so I did the same. Should've used smilies I guess. But no hard feelings.



I suppose if I wanted to kill the thread, that's okay -- its my thread.

And I only took umbrage with the concept that I "refused" to discuss something.  That is just silly.  Mostly, I was giving DG shit, because in fact the conversation was moving along swimmingly until he tried to play director.

Anyway, I don't even remember what was being discussed about cortisol, lets just say that I personally do not believe cortisol to be an important factor worth worrying about due to training.  Which is probably why I "refused" to address it.


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## ZECH (Oct 31, 2006)

Twin Peak said:


> I suppose if I wanted to kill the thread, that's okay -- its my thread.
> 
> And I only took umbrage with the concept that I "refused" to discuss something.  That is just silly.  Mostly, I was giving DG shit, because in fact the conversation was moving along swimmingly until he tried to play director.
> 
> Anyway, I don't even remember what was being discussed about cortisol, lets just say that I personally do not believe cortisol to be an important factor worth worrying about due to training.  Which is probably why I "refused" to address it.



I only thought the thread was going into too many directions to stay on focus. Carry on........


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## Gordo (Oct 31, 2006)

I don't think this one was posted yet:


> doi: 10.1519/R-17695.1
> The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 20, No. 3, pp. 643???653.
> 
> The Effects of Protein and Amino Acid Supplementation on Performance and Training Adaptations During Ten Weeks of Resistance Training
> ...




Kinda flies in the face of the whey only advocates PWO doesn't it? (mind you, it doesn't list in the abstract when the subjects supplemented)

Of course, this also assumes they ate relatively the same meals and used the same meal timing over the course of the study. It also assumes they got the same amount of rest, had the same amount of stressors in their life, made the same incremental weight progressions, had the same genetics, biochemistry and phenotypic expressions.


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## emitecaps (Nov 1, 2006)

Twin Peak said:


> I suppose if I wanted to kill the thread, that's okay -- its my thread.
> 
> And I only took umbrage with the concept that I "refused" to discuss something.  That is just silly.  Mostly, I was giving DG shit, because in fact the conversation was moving along swimmingly until he tried to play director.
> 
> Anyway, I don't even remember what was being discussed about cortisol, lets just say that I personally do not believe cortisol to be an important factor worth worrying about due to training.  Which is probably why I "refused" to address it.



Cortisol can blunt insulin response or release or both, I forget which exactly. Thus is can severely affect protein synthesis postworkout and close that anabolic window.  At least that's the impression I got from trouble's posts but perhaps she can elaborate if she even reads this thread anymore.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 1, 2006)

emitecaps said:


> Cortisol can blunt insulin response or release or both, I forget which exactly. Thus is can severely affect protein synthesis postworkout and close that anabolic window.  At least that's the impression I got from trouble's posts but perhaps she can elaborate if she even reads this thread anymore.



Yes, I got the same impression.  Again, these effects are overstated, in my opinion.  Cortisol will be elevated from training -- it is supposed to be.  Its your body's response to stress.  Its somewhat necessary.  While cortisol will be elevated, protein synthesis will also be jacked way up, from the training.

Again, I am talking about normally functioning individuals -- if your response to training is hampered, or you particularly have cortisol issues, these statements will not apply.


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## emitecaps (Nov 3, 2006)

Twin Peak said:


> Yes, I got the same impression.  Again, these effects are overstated, in my opinion.  Cortisol will be elevated from training -- it is supposed to be.  Its your body's response to stress.  Its somewhat necessary.  While cortisol will be elevated, protein synthesis will also be jacked way up, from the training.
> 
> Again, I am talking about normally functioning individuals -- if your response to training is hampered, or you particularly have cortisol issues, these statements will not apply.



I think it depends on your phenotype. Ectos have high cortisol levels and I think it can affect their protein synthesis. 

We know that after a workout you are more anabolic but for low long does this period last? I hear roughly 3 hours and then protein synthesis drops. Eating more protein or carbs won't stimulate protein synthesis at least to the degree you acheive postwork. So it seems that you need most of your protein centered around your workout. So if you workout in the morning then eating a big dinner won't help much. Also eating 2g protein per lb bodyweight might not help if it's taken around the time you workout.


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## Gordo (Nov 4, 2006)

> 1: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Jun;86(6):2881-9.Click here to read  Links
> Cortisol and growth hormone responses to exercise at different times of day.
> 
> * Kanaley JA,
> ...



http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/86/6/2881


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## Twin Peak (Nov 4, 2006)

emitecaps said:


> I think it depends on your phenotype. Ectos have high cortisol levels and I think it can affect their protein synthesis.
> 
> We know that after a workout you are more anabolic but for low long does this period last? I hear roughly 3 hours and then protein synthesis drops. Eating more protein or carbs won't stimulate protein synthesis at least to the degree you acheive postwork. So it seems that you need most of your protein centered around your workout. So if you workout in the morning then eating a big dinner won't help much. Also eating 2g protein per lb bodyweight might not help if it's taken around the time you workout.



I don't disagree, and all of that is taken into account with my pre/during/post recommendations.


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## arlowf (Nov 13, 2006)

This is in the top three for my favorite threads on the web, most likely because it's made a huge difference in my gains because I used to lift on an empty stomach and thought my PostWorkout shake was covering me. Wrong.

For some n=1 feedback here:

Iv'e been taking preworkout:

LowCarb Yogurt, Cottage Cheese, BCAA's, SyntheSize (Which has CEE), and glycerine.

Postworkout:
Cottage cheese, LowCarb Yogurt, Protein powder, vinegar, lemon juice, BCAA's.

Anyone who works out should read this thread before wasting time in the gym, like I did.

Thanks Trouble and TwinPeak.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 13, 2006)

Cool, glad to help.  Didn't know you posted here.


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## viet_jon (Nov 13, 2006)

arlowf said:


> This is in the top three for my favorite threads on the web, most likely because it's made a huge difference in my gains because I used to lift on an empty stomach and thought my PostWorkout shake was covering me. Wrong.
> 
> For some n=1 feedback here:
> 
> ...




this thread started just over a month ago. your saying in one month time you've noticed that much of a difference?


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## ffemt (Nov 13, 2006)

This is a awsome thread!But way over my head can someone please break all of this down for us slow people.I see alot of good info put can't put it were it needs to go.Thanks


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## Twin Peak (Nov 13, 2006)

I gave my opinion on the nuts and bolts in the first post.



Twin Peak said:


> *
> Shall we kick it off?  My personal opinion, based on limited research I have seen, and anecdotal feedback of my self and many others tells me that FOR BODY COMPOSITION, the following is the best approach for MOST:
> 
> Pre = EAAs and a small amount of simple carbs (20g or so).
> ...


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## ffemt (Nov 14, 2006)

Thanks twin I guess after reading everything I forgot the start. Thanks again


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## oaktownboy (Nov 14, 2006)

trouble and tp, you have got to be the smartest people i have ever come across on a bb forum. u take it to a whole 'nother level. I don't understand why personal trainers don't cover this with their clients. I guess they just assume their clients don't care enough or maybe they have no idea themselves


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## viet_jon (Nov 14, 2006)

oaktownboy said:


> trouble and tp, you have got to be the smartest people i have ever come across on a bb forum. u take it to a whole 'nother level. I don't understand why personal trainers don't cover this with their clients. I guess they just assume their clients don't care enough or maybe they have no idea themselves



LOL


ya, try explaining this thread to the average client.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 16, 2006)

viet_jon said:


> LOL
> 
> 
> ya, try explaining this thread to the average client.



A good trainer can and should explain pre, during and postworkout nutrition.  Its not that hard.  If you want to keep it simple, its easy, watch:



> Pre = EAAs and a small amount of simple carbs (20g or so).
> 
> During = if anything, BCAAs
> 
> Post = whey, plus a slow released protein (prefer casien) plus some simple carbs (10-15 grams) plus some slower released carbs.



Joe, in order for you to make the most out of your workouts, and the massive amount of money you spend on me, you really need button down your nutrition, before and after your workouts.  At a minimum, here is what I want you to do:

60 minutes before you come to see me, eat a half can of tuna or small peice of chicken, and a peice of fruit.  Then, when you are done training with me, grab one of those high protein RTDs in the cooler over there.  About an hour after that, sit down and have a meal with some protein and good carbs (brown rice, or yams).

Now, if you want to REALLY dial it in:

Slam some Vendetta 30 minutes before you get to the gym.  Bring a water bottle with ICE or XTEND or some other BCAA drink.  You'll sip that while we lift.

Then after your workout, you'll use Replenish.

There you go, not so hard.


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## P-funk (Nov 16, 2006)

viet_jon said:


> LOL
> 
> 
> ya, try explaining this thread to the average client.



gotta keep shit simple when you are talking to the average client.  otherwise they have no idea.


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## Double D (Nov 16, 2006)

P-funk said:


> gotta keep shit simple when you are talking to the average client.  otherwise they have no idea.



I agree with this 100%. Hell I got a buddy who about a month ago I told him the donut he was eating is bad for him. I thought he was going to argue with me for an hour telling me that it was good for him. I was like holy shit, people are this retarted! So yeah the average person has to be explained in baby steps.


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## largepkg (Nov 16, 2006)

Double D said:


> I agree with this 100%. Hell I got a buddy who about a month ago I told him the donut he was eating is bad for him. I thought he was going to argue with me for an hour telling me that it was good for him. I was like holy shit, people are this retarted! So yeah the average person has to be explained in baby steps.



What's wrong with donuts?


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## Twin Peak (Nov 16, 2006)

Jelly donuts are awesome preworkout!  Powdered too!


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## camarosuper6 (Nov 23, 2006)

Twin Peak said:


> Jelly donuts are awesome preworkout!  Powdered too!



Ive been giving AMP by ergopharm a go... not bad at all actually.


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## tucker01 (Feb 21, 2008)

Bump

Something good to read.


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## Will Brink (Feb 22, 2008)

Little Wing said:


> yea i'm looking at the different types of whey now. i know some flavors people end up hating so i'll order two flavors to start. all the whey woman sounds good. thanks. time to get my books back out. is Will Brink a good guy to listen to?



You can't trust him!


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