# Law generates rush on soon-to-be-banned drugs



## redspy (Dec 21, 2004)

USA Today
Dec. 21, 2004 12:00 AM 

SAN FRANCISCO - With a new federal anti-steroid law kicking in next month, bodybuilders and athletes from coast to coast are snapping up the last bottles of popular products, including "Andro," which soon will become banned drugs akin to cocaine.

The shopping frenzy comes amid a government crackdown on illegal steroids and a widely-publicized sports doping scandal involving Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative founder Victor Conte and three other men, including Greg Anderson, a longtime friend and trainer of baseball's Barry Bonds. 

After Jan. 20, it's a crime to sell, buy or use "prohormones" and "steroid precursors," which are substances that turn into testosterone when ingested. advertisement 

But that isn't spooking customers, who like the way the substances - marketed and sold over the counter as diet supplements - build muscle mass and strength.

"I'm stocking up. I just bought about $1,000 worth," says Dan Phillips, 45, of St. Louis, an amateur bodybuilder who also owns a supplement site. "Obviously, if I get caught with it I'll be put in jail, which is even more ridiculous."

Steroid precursors made headlines a few years ago when former St. Louis Cardinals slugger Mark McGwire admitted he used androstenedione, or "Andro." Prohormones, which many say are much more potent, followed.

As the market grew, dozens of U.S. companies in the $19 billion diet supplement industry began selling prohormones and steroid precursors online.

"Customers really like these products, and they want to keep using them," says Ryan Deluca, Chief Executive Officer of BodyBuilder.com, an online company in Boise, Idaho.

BodyBuilder.com has only 10,000 bottles of prohormone products left, and they're moving quickly at $20 or more. Deluca says he probably will sell out by Dec. 31.

Diet supplement companies that hawk the products are urging people to act now. "DO NOT WAIT UNTIL JANUARY TO STOCK UP" reads the Web site of Fitness First U.S.A., a Portsmouth, N.H., company.

On the Web site of HouseOfMuscle.com, founder and weightlifter Joel Sward writes: "If you want prohormones after January 20, you will be forced to break the law and buy them on the black market. No one wants to deal with that, so buy 12 or 24 bottles and give yourself a cushion."

But industry officials warn customers they could be arrested for using the products after Jan. 20.

"While people may be stocking up, they risk being federal drug offenders if found in possession," says Michael DiMaggio, executive director of the United Supplement Freedom Association (USFA), which represents diet supplement companies.


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## iMan323 (Dec 21, 2004)

Yeah, hmm...  The funny thing is I never even considered PH's before this ban.  Now, I have a huge stash.  I know this'll sound like a surprise coming from a liberal, but....FUCK THE GOV'T OF THESE UNITED STATES.  LEGALIZE IT.  (oh and pot too)


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 21, 2004)

that fucking sux man, i was told its gona be illegal to sell but not to have for personal use...


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## redspy (Dec 21, 2004)

This is a post from steroid law guru Rick Collins:-



> Actually, the new law seeks to increase ALL steroid (and prohormone) penalties, not just those near schools. Steroids will remain in Schedule III. However, the new law asks the U.S. Sentencing Commission to review the way steroids are treated under the federal sentencing guidelines. You can expect to see a revision of the guidelines to permit those charged with steroid crimes involving LESSER quantities to get sacked with LONGER prison sentences. Once that happens, you can expect to see a heightened interest on the part of DEA to investigate steroid crimes.


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## PreMier (Dec 21, 2004)

QuestionGuy said:
			
		

> that fucking sux man, i was told its gona be illegal to sell but not to have for personal use...




Its ok.. cops are always using steroids.. your cool.


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## redspy (Dec 21, 2004)

QuestionGuy said:
			
		

> that fucking sux man, i was told its gona be illegal to sell but not to have for personal use...


If you keep your stash hidden away at home you won't have a problem.  If you travel with PHs obviously the risks increase, a lot of juicers are caught following a police search of their car.

If you order PHs (post ban) through the mail the risks are greater as the package may arouse suspicion by postal inspectors - they may be able to get search warrant to open the package (for first class/priority mail.)  If you have items shipped via private courier (Fedex, UPS etc.) they can open the package without probable cause or a search warrant.


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 21, 2004)

yeah both of you are right. I wont be traveling with it but even tho no one is going to know about it im still gona feel bad, im starting my cycle after new years and its gona last 2 months (including pct) and after that im never touching them again, except i have a fucking bottle of oxavar that is unopened that i need to get rid of or use. Its weird becasue im a rookie and I try to do everythin right and be the good guy, but I know real life isn't like that, Im gona see if im gona use the oxavar or not..


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## law74 (Dec 21, 2004)

Red Spy is quite right.  Only use USPS to order.  They do need a search warrant to open it.  Never, ever let the cops search your car when they ask.  Police have absolutely no right what so ever to search a car of its contents unless it is based upon probable cause, and speeding, tail light, registration do not provide probable cause.  To search your trunk cops actually need a warrant (that is unless you are arrested) to search through your trunk.  Never, Ever, grant a cop consent to search anything.  No one argue this one with me I know what I am talking about.


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 21, 2004)

*hm*



			
				law7  No one argue this one with me I know what I am talking about.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> why is that ?


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## law74 (Dec 21, 2004)

If people in general were more engaged in government dumb shit like this ban would not happen.  Also it is a very liberal comment to say FUCK this government.  Liberals are for legalizing most things.  Liberals are very oppossed to the criminalization of victimless crimes.  Oppossed to what the nasty conservatives say Liberals actually want the government out of most peoples lives.  Did not intend on starting a politicla thread but this ban makes me angry.  I to have never used PH's before but now want to stock up just in case I ever do.  The government has actually made this substance more attractive to me by making it illegal.


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## law74 (Dec 21, 2004)

I am a criminal defense attorney


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## redspy (Dec 21, 2004)

Good post Law.  

I recently read the Legal Muscle book from cover to cover and although it's scary it's essential reading if you're planning on using anabolics, whether it's PHs or traditional AAS.


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## iMan323 (Dec 21, 2004)

If you have to carry PH's on you, what do you think is the wisest method?


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## redspy (Dec 21, 2004)

iMan323 said:
			
		

> If you have to carry PH's on you, what do you think is the wisest method?


Empty a bottle of vitamins/supplements and put the PH caps in there.  Just by looking at the caps no one will know they're PHs.


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 21, 2004)

great, thanx guys, you are giving me great tips to share with the guys at the station........ what do you think cops dont know that one already???  You are gona be like the hooker who is hiding crack in the cigaret box................ "  it's just cigarets, and they're not mine!! "


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## Northy (Dec 21, 2004)

Just more ways for the Govt & Policing agencies to get more money out of the people, easily. Its sad when the media only shows the people who were stupid using ephedra (whatever that baseball pitchers name was - RIP) or about the 13yr olds using PH's. I always knew if anyone ever had a illegal subs in their car they better hide it fucking good. 
In my own personal experience, at least where I live, any excuse to search your car/home for anyway to incriminate is what the law (police) does. 
Example: I just leased a car (2004 GTO 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ) and a passenger with me had "a drug" in my car". Later that night I was driving home from the club and I noticed my left tail-light was out, so I didnt think twice and drove home. About 3miles from my house pos pre-1990's lebaron Conv. was going 15mph on the speed limit, so I decided to pass. About 100ft ahead of me was a cop, just sitting there. I was pulled over for reckless driving (dropped) and tailgating (dropped). My buddy was rolling a cigarette (tobacco thankyou) and guess what, Rolling your own cigarettes means you have drugs. Car was searched, I got the ticket for OWI (funny how looking tired makes you look high - charge later dropped due to blood work) but I did walkout with a nice posession charge, along with my friend having the same. After all this and going through the courts, probably spent a good $4,000 with drug screenings, probation - 9 monthes. Just like to say thanks for the aggrivation.

Just some advice, those of you who will be using PH's after the *BAN*, keep it at home, because this is how its going to be. Whats next, OWI from... Using PH's? I can see it now "HES GOT ROID RAGE! HIS INTOXICATED BY PH'S! ARREST HIM!"
I know to hide "certain things". I just never thought I'd have to hide anything that was in my Gym bag.


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 21, 2004)

The sades part of your post here was that the tail light of a brand new 2004 GTO was out...??? WTF ??? ............. Anyway, the cop pulled you over because he had reason to do so, you looked suspicious and he had reasonable doubt to search your car, and his instincts are right, he found what he was probably looking for. So how is that not your fault?? I doubt that you didnt know what that guy had on him but you should be careful who rides with you. 

  Oh and did you know that the poor guy was just doing his job??? Yes, cops do that.




PS: no need to fight now. I feel bad for you because of the tail light tho that is a weird thing.


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## Northy (Dec 21, 2004)

Its to late to argue, and I've already have the great feeling of knowing the two officers who arrested me have been fired - not due to my case though (thanks local newspaper) Turns out alot of seizures they have taken mysteriously were in the wrong amounts. 

I've dragged OT again. Anyways, QuestionG, I hope you have some "sympathy" at least for awhile if you happen to find someone with PH's.

Add to last post: probable cause is BS, at least in my case. We were pulled over, we had a can of solid tobacco, cigarette tubes and a auto roller - You cant even roll pot with this thing, unless you cut off the tubes filter, and then you just have a shitty joint 

As for the GTO, the dealership is owned by a family friend and the car is mine until Feb '05 for free since last may  Had it since last feb too 

Lets just all get along and look at this page <- Adult Page


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## brodus (Dec 22, 2004)

#1.  They will be illegal; only a dumbass would transport them.

#2  *They will be illegal;* Keep them at home and don't talk about it.

#3  _*They will be illegal;*_ Stock and save them.  Use them.. Chill out.  Or buy D-Bol or any other product at the nice, low, underground pricing.


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## ZECH (Dec 22, 2004)

law74 said:
			
		

> Red Spy is quite right.  Only use USPS to order.  They do need a search warrant to open it.  Never, ever let the cops search your car when they ask.  Police have absolutely no right what so ever to search a car of its contents unless it is based upon probable cause, and speeding, tail light, registration do not provide probable cause.  To search your trunk cops actually need a warrant (that is unless you are arrested) to search through your trunk.  Never, Ever, grant a cop consent to search anything.  No one argue this one with me I know what I am talking about.


If you speed over 15mph over the speed limit, it is a misdemeanor and you can be arrested and your vehicle searched. If they want to search, they can find something wrong and then search. Is your registration card signed?? If not it is a misdemeanor!


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## simbh (Dec 22, 2004)

Wow man , you the police officers in the states are crazy. I only got checked out by cops a few times. Once , I was speeding 40km above limit. Second time I was with a friend , about two years ago and we were smoking a joint in car in a local college parking. Actually , we just smoke one , and I was rolling another. The cop came up to us , asked us what the fuck we were doing there 11 at night . We just said we were waiting for a friend and since my friend has a pretty nice car for a 17 year old (subaru legacy gt 1999) he asked for his papers cuz he thought the car was stolen. He came back , gave him the papers and told us to have a good night. LOL. Thats what usually happens here , if you act cool for whatever you usually don't get busted. If you drank too much or you're not sure if you're over the limit of alcool you just need to tell him that ya , you had a few drinks but you are aware that you are driving and were cautious with your drinking.

Anyways , the phs are illigal in Canada as we speak . But a lot of stores still carry them for the sole reason that they have easy access to them since they are still legal in the states. Im 19 right now , almost 20 and I'll be doing my first cycle pretty soon . I know it is not recommended under 21 , but I'd rather do it now , a year younger than waiting and going threw the black market and not being sure about what the hell I'm purshacing.


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## DemolitionNine (Dec 22, 2004)

So what this comes down to... is that we're going to be throwing PH users in jail, wasting tax-payers money to put them there, and spending MORE money on something that doesn't need to be spent on  (I.E the incarceration of INNOCENT people).

The U.S already has over 3 million people behind bars, more than any other nation in the world.  Most of them are for stupid petty crimes that caused less harm than keeping them in jail for 5-10 years. 

Way to go USA.      

God I hate this country at times... 

it's seriously turned into a police state.


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## bludevil (Dec 22, 2004)

Yeah, but remember, your still living in the greatest country in the world, if you don't believe it, go do some travelling and you will soon see.


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## DemolitionNine (Dec 22, 2004)

bludevil said:
			
		

> Yeah, but remember, your still living in the greatest country in the world, if you don't believe it, go do some travelling and you will soon see.


 
I have.  I liked Germany / Austria a lot more than the U.S...

people over there know how to *gasp* drive too!


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## Dale Mabry (Dec 22, 2004)

iMan323 said:
			
		

> If you have to carry PH's on you, what do you think is the wisest method?




Fill a balloon with the PHs and shove them up your ass.  Not only will you not get caught, but you will have a story to tell your grandkids.


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## iMan323 (Dec 22, 2004)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> Fill a balloon with the PHs and shove them up your ass.  Not only will you not get caught, but you will have a story to tell your grandkids.



Speaking from experience there, Dale?


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## Dale Mabry (Dec 22, 2004)

iMan323 said:
			
		

> Speaking from experience there, Dale?




Nah, mine is an exit only.  It is a very sensitive area for me.  One time a chick was on top of me and she started to slide a finger up there.  I asked her what she was doing and she said to sit back and relax.  I told her if she was going to stick the finger in there I was going to stick something much larger up HER's, my foot.


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## redspy (Dec 22, 2004)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> I told her if she was going to stick the finger in there I was going to stick something much larger up HER's, my foot.


It's good to know romance isn't dead, Dale.  You charmer you.


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## Pirate! (Dec 22, 2004)

If your PH/PS are oral, buy bottles of something with caps that are not clear and have the brand name on the caps. I use Lean System 7 caps. It takes some time, but you can empty the caps and fill them with the desired dose of PH/PS. If necessary, use vitamin C powder or something else to cut it. Than again, the 5-HTP I use looks identical to the 1-ad I used. There is no way that cops are going to find a bottle of OTC supplements (Like Lean System 7 or 5-HTP) and guess that you are transporting controlled substances. He would look really dumb submitting what appears to be 5-HTP for a lab analysis. If you are under investigation for distribution, the situation is different. 

You would have to be totally careless to get busted with orals. The most careless thing to do is to drive around with the PH/PS in their factory-labeled bottles. You might as well have a bottle of D-Bol with Russian writing and a picture of some freak in a speedo on it. Keeping them at home is unquestionably the safest move, but with a little forethought keeping them on you without getting caught is extremely easy.


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## iMan323 (Dec 22, 2004)

Pirate...you da man.


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## simbh (Dec 22, 2004)

If you ask me , just dont go around telling everyone you have some ph/ps . Hide them carefully , hopefully leave em at home. If you have to take em during work , just bring the quantity you need for the day and just tell everyone its creatine or whatever . Or just hide as you take it ... I don't think its that hard to do.


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## MTN WARRIOR (Dec 23, 2004)

law74 said:
			
		

> Red Spy is quite right.  Only use USPS to order.  They do need a search warrant to open it.  Never, ever let the cops search your car when they ask.  Police have absolutely no right what so ever to search a car of its contents unless it is based upon probable cause, and speeding, tail light, registration do not provide probable cause.  To search your trunk cops actually need a warrant (that is unless you are arrested) to search through your trunk.  Never, Ever, grant a cop consent to search anything.  No one argue this one with me I know what I am talking about.



What fucking planet are you from?  Every state is different as PC is regulated by state government, not the federal government.  The PC laws are written vaguely to allow for searches when "gut feeling" is the only proof. Let me show you how this works:

You forget to signal a right hand turn.
You get pulled over. Officer asks, did you realize that you didnt signal that right hand turn.  "Oh, sorry, I guess I didnt".  Do you have a drivers license?  Sure.  Can you tell me why you didnt signal?  I guess I just forgot.  BAM!! You are done.  You just demonstrated to him (legally) that something must have caused you to forget a normal driving law.  It is now legally probable that you are under the influence of something which caused that.  It continues...
Officer says" I feel you may be under the influence of something, mind if I just search your vehicle for your safety and mine".  You say (cause you listened to this idior named LAW74) "Don't you need a search warrant?"  BAM!!!  You just did it again.  You are no giving him (legal) PC to search your vehicle without your consent because he feels it is probable that you are hiding something.

And the trunk is part of the car.


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## MTN WARRIOR (Dec 23, 2004)

law74 said:
			
		

> I am a criminal defense attorney




OUCH.  THAT WAS MY BULLSHIT DETECTOR GOING OFF!!!!


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 23, 2004)

*Niceeee*



			
				MTN WARRIOR said:
			
		

> OUCH.  THAT WAS MY BULLSHIT DETECTOR GOING OFF!!!!







  NICE DUDE, I was gona bash on this guy also but I didn't want to because it takes a lot of writing and I figured everyone is gona get back at me as if I was the bad guy........Anyway, you said it right. A lot of idiots just ask for trouble, because they are to kooky and think they know the law. FOR EXAMPLE: One of my first rides ever on training, It was 3 in the morning Saturday night, we parked our patrol car in a dark place to write out the report for the night, all of the sudden I hear a loud muffler and sure enough I see 2 guys racing down the street at above 60......as we were puling out with our lights still off, he noticed us and pulled over to a mexican restaurant got out quickly and headed inside (he must have thought that if he wasn't in the car we couldn't to anything) we  pulled behind him and just embarrassed him even more in front of all his friends by yelling at him to get back in his car. (we yelled because he was pretending to not hear us.) When we got to his window we said "did you just pull me over because Im black and you think im a trouble maker" (you feel like punching people in the face sometimes, but you still have to remain professional) we said that we saw him racing and that why we pulled him over. To that he responded "how do you know you don't have that speed measurer thing" we said we don't need one because we saw you racing. He became quiet and we gave him a ticket for exhibition of speed which is like 500 dollars here. 

        The thing is you are always gona see an asshole officer who just had a bad day, but if you keep your cool and not be a smart ass about the law then you might get away with some things. Also cops hate people who bed not to get a ticket, beggers always get tickets.


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## Vieope (Dec 23, 2004)

_Will it be illegal to talk about it on internet forums? _


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 23, 2004)

*.*



			
				Vieope said:
			
		

> _Will it be illegal to talk about it on internet forums? _





   What???? Banned supps ?? No since you can talk about illegal steroids I dont think talking about illegal supps is against the law...if thats what you mean


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## Vieope (Dec 23, 2004)

QuestionGuy said:
			
		

> What???? Banned supps ?? No since you can talk about illegal steroids I dont think talking about illegal supps is against the law...if thats what you mean


_Yes, that is what I mean. I don´t know if talking about steroids is illegal either. I remember that IM had a problem with it some time ago. _


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## BigDyl (Dec 23, 2004)

PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> There is no way that cops are going to find a bottle of OTC supplements (Like Lean System 7 or 5-HTP) and guess that you are transporting controlled substances.




No, He'd be like; "Looks like you got some illegal substances here.  7 HTP.  Hmm, that must stand for Hyper-Testosterone-Prohormones.  Ah lean system, whats that got in it?  I'm gonna guess DBOL.  Sir, put your hands behind your head, and step out of the car...."


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## iMan323 (Dec 23, 2004)

With all that detective power, how come there's never a cop around when ya need one?


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 23, 2004)

nah, talking about suppliers and shit like that probobly would be...But just talking about cycles and info wouldn't be. I hardly even go into the steroids forum at all and I really don't know shit about the illegal stuff so I wouldn't know much about it anyway but I really don't see a reason it would be illegal. Ofcourse there is probobly a taskforce out there who is going on these sites and checking if people spit out some names and locations....


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 23, 2004)

*.*



			
				iMan323 said:
			
		

> With all that detective power, how come there's never a cop around when ya need one?




they are only a call away.


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## iMan323 (Dec 23, 2004)

What I'd like to know is how much the average cop walking the beat knows about PH's.  I'll definately ask my friends in NYPD what they were told to be on the look out for.


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 23, 2004)

*.*



			
				BigDyl said:
			
		

> No, He'd be like; "Looks like you got some illegal substances here.  7 HTP.  Hmm, that must stand for Hyper-Testosterone-Prohormones.  Ah lean system, whats that got in it?  I'm gonna guess DBOL.  Sir, put your hands behind your head, and step out of the car...."





  You are right, cops are only humans and they cant know erverything, but trust me they are trained and more prepared then you. It's called officers discresion, If it was me who caught someone with pro-hormones after their bann, and they could provide me with a reciept that they bought it before the bann then fine. (if it was a small amount and for personal use) then I would give them a break, if they are not a known criminal. But rememer most cops are also "bodybuilders" and people who love to lift weight so they know some stuff about supps too.....  Plus I mentioned the thing about the hooker who hides her crack in the cigaret box and thinks noone will find it,(well everone does that)


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 23, 2004)

*.*



			
				iMan323 said:
			
		

> What I'd like to know is how much the average cop walking the beat knows about PH's.  I'll definately ask my friends in NYPD what they were told to be on the look out for.




   They know a shit load, well depends on which one you ask. It all about experience man and all about the officer. All the officers I know are guys who regulary workout, I know 4 who were in bb shows....


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 23, 2004)

And by the way, I bet you did not know this one either, it is a big crime to take a perscription medication out of its original bottle and put it somewhere else, yet people do that by mistake and get in trouble sometimes. So watch out for that shit, if ur gona stock up on hormones then leave them at home and shut up about it....


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## iMan323 (Dec 23, 2004)

Excuse me, but there's a terrorist in my soup...he could hide weapons of mass destruction in the crevices formed by his abdominal muscles.. HA HAAA  

 I hate the law.


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 23, 2004)

*.*



			
				iMan323 said:
			
		

> Excuse me, but there's a terrorist in my soup...he could hide weapons of mass destruction in the crevices formed by his abdominal muscles.. HA HAAA
> 
> I hate the law.





        the more mad people get abot the law the more fun we have, and the more we can make fun of people when its all done.... hehehe


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## brodus (Dec 23, 2004)

I have to agree with QuestionGuy here on the way to deal with police.  I have been pulled over many times, sometimes for very innane things like a taillight, once for a truly stupid thing like stealing a ground light from my college campus, and having my plate called in from a maintenance person.

My experience is this--honesty (to the degree necessary), calmness, and cooperation work to your advantage.  Exctiement, anger, and "pulling the books," do not work.  When you are pulled over, you are not in the driver's seat--the officer is.  He is all that stands between you and a lot of trouble.  Can you beat the "probable cause" charge?  Maybe, if your local DA isn't hardnosed, but you're going to spend a night in jail and probably $4,000 on court costs.  A lot more hassle than a $200 posession ticket and misdemeanor charge that will drop off.

When I tried the "I know the law" spiel, I got arrested.  I also heard that giving a statement was a bad idea, so I didn't.  Well, this showed the officers and detective just how interested I was in cooperating.  You all realize these notes go to the DA who has seen everything before, right?  Which also get to the judge, who determines sentence and punishment?  Needless to say, painting the officers and detectives as combatants is only asking for a fight, and you WILL lose, trust me.

Other times I have been pulled over after a couple drinks, probably drugs on someone in the car, and I was calm, cooperative, and told the officer I had a couple drinks at a party.  He asked to search my trunk.  I said ok.  He didn't even search it.  No ticket, nothing.  I've been pulled over w/o insurance, w/ bad tabs, etc., and in each case the mood and interaction with the officer set the tone.  Realize, if he's having a bad day, you're screwed regardless.  But if he's a decent guy, you have a good chance of receiving lenient treatment if you're cool about it and don't have priors.  There's such a thing as officer's discretion.

BTW-->If you're worried about your trunk being searched, don't drive with a trunkload of illegal shit!  Take a bike ride!  Or be prepared for the consequences.

Don't be a hero for the sake of a line in a law book. It's pointless, I know.


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 23, 2004)

nice said man!! But people will never learn and we deal with same shit every day so of course we know where everyone hides their shit and cops deal with the same problems over and over again so please don't be a smartass becasue you can only dig yourself a deeper hole by "knowing the law "


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## law74 (Dec 23, 2004)

Look, even if a cop did pull you over, like I said earlier unless you give consent to a search cops rarely are justified in conducting searches of vehicles.  Especially conducting searches for PH/PS.  the cop would have to believe that it was more likely than not that you had not just drugs, but PH/PS on you.  Cops are never allowed to conduct blanket searches merely because they are suspicious.  There is still the 4th Amendment, and don't ever listen to what the fuck a cop tells you about the 4th Amendment they are usually dead wrong.  They know what thety were told in cop school and the info is usually bad.  I get searches kicked out of court all the time because cops frequently conduct illegal searches of cars, people, etc.  The biggest problem is that people always give the cops consent to search.  If you give consent, it doesn't matter if the initial stop was illegal, the contraband is usually coming in.  Never consent.  They will not go easier on you if you consent.  They will take you to jail and then all decisions are made by the district attorney.  If you refuse and they search anyway you at least have a chance (sometimes pretty fucking good) that the contraband will be suppressed.  Cops expect people not to know what their rights are.  My suggestion to anyone, whether you are doing anything illegal are not is to educate yourself on what your rights are.  Buy any decent book about understanding criminal law or an outline of criminal law.  These can be purchased cheaply from any law school or University bookstore.  People died so we could be free, and not live in a fucking police state.


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## brodus (Dec 23, 2004)

> I get searches kicked out of court all the time



Yeah, and it costs your clients $4,000 and a night in jail vs. a >$500 petty fine.

There is a huge difference between what goes down in a book and what goes down on the streets.  I have a very low opinion of criminal defense lawyers.  You promise more than you can offer, and in the end are bound by the same rules.  You eloquently gloss over the fact that your job in life is hardly serving as the grand protectorate of 4th ammendment freedoms, but actually sifting through the minutae of law in order to get GUILTY clients off on technicalities, quite often costing them more than the original problem might have deemed.  There is such a thing as contrition--in the eyes of judges, parents, DAs, etc., when someone takes the blame for something they did, it is seen as the morally responsible choice.  When they fight to maintain what all parties know is a lie, they turn a battle into a war.

BTW-->People didn't die so you could illegally transport narcotics in your trunk.  You're argument is guilty of a multitude of logical fallacies, that I question your integrity...you did take philosophy pre-law right?   

Are those cops in my district, Humboldt Park, Chicago, IL, who have to deal with 50+ homicides per year just part of the "Police State" for searching vehicles when a truckload of guns is known to have been delivered in the area?  Why don't you ask the residents of my neighborhood how they feel about it, after we've had 2 innocent killings this summer in drivebys.   

Get a grip.  Just because you win a couple cases for your stoner trustafarian friends in God knows what tiny district does not make you an authority on geopolitical realities, crime indicies, human philosophy, or much else.  The vast majority of society understands that dangerous elements require relinquishing sometimes very small measures of personal privacy in order to protect the greater good, and since the vast majority of society doesn't transport narcotics, stolen guns, children, or steroids, they consent not out of ignorance but out of respect for the law.  It has fuck-nothing to do with a police state.  Your flippant use of the phrase betrays your naive understanding of that which you speak.


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 23, 2004)

You are a fucking idiot, If you were next to me right now I would punch you in the mouth asshole, how about some respect to the people who get spit on and yelled at and die for you everyday.We are the ones who do all the work, you just sit there and whine and lie about things. Bottom line if I want to search your car I will find a reason, I am a rookie and still not even out on the streets alone, im sure court shit happens and officers fuck up, but you better damn give those people respect we are nothing less then those guys serving our country in Iraq. You are sitting here filling people with shit so when they get pulled over to cause the officers more trouble and cause more trouble on themselves.  Bottom line, If you don't let me search and I have a reason to search I can impound your car and then search it. We are not talking about cops who don't have a reason to search we are talking about cops who do, and you are sitting here and telling people not to cooperate so they get into deeper shit. You are a little bitch and you have no idea what happens out on the streets man.   You say cops dont give you a break if you cooperate???? Well sometimes they do and sometimes they dont because they have a job to do. A lot of officers pull people over for drunk driving and are supposed to arrest them, well if the people are nice and cooperative sometimes they just park the car on the curb and make them walk home...That was just one example how things can go...damn man, dont disrespect people who die for the public like that just like you would not disrespect our troops in Iraq.......................OH and MTN WARRIOR WAS RIGHT UP THERE !!!


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## brodus (Dec 23, 2004)

We're all Americans, we're all citizens.  Beware of anyone who pushes you into "us vs. them" ideology.  I wish we could remember this sometimes.  Our culture is dominated with polarizing rhetoric.


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## brodus (Dec 23, 2004)

The Bill of Rights is not a get out of jail free card, even though some lawyers say otherwise.

The illegal search and seizure Ammendment, i.e. 4th Ammendment, grew out of our forefathers desperation when faced with the "writs of assistance," which allowed British troops to enter and raid your HOME.

Although their is a historical chain of legal precedent extending 4th Ammendment to also include protections on your auto, even the lay person can immediately see the gulf between intention of 4th Ammenment and application in terms of car-related drug busts, for instance. 

Further, a true police state is akin to Hitler's Nazi Germany, Castro's Cuba, etc., where dissidents are killed, jailed, detained, etc., for their beliefs alone, or for "smuggling" anti-government propoganda, or for nothing at all.

Here in America, naive pseduo-intellectuals find symmetry between dumb asses and dissidents, and try to argue from a context of "dissident supression," when in reality, most people don't care enough about how much weed they can legally possess, and those that do, are, well, not really part of the majority. 

See, the problem law-dawg is running into is that the PEOPLE of America, not a self-imposed dictator, have spoken, through their votes and elected officials, to pass certain laws that prohibit things deemed morally dubious for society, at best, and harmful and destructive at worst.  If the people didn't support these actions, then yes, you could make a case against it.  But by and large, people do support the law, and understand it's sad but very real necessity in a corrupt world.

I can only believe that an alternative analysis would be based on something other than fact.


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## brodus (Dec 23, 2004)

> the cop would have to believe that it was more likely than not that you had not just drugs, but PH/PS on you.



This coming from someone who has never worked a PH/PS case, since there have been exactly ZERO so far.

This is pure speculation, and not based on any precedent.

In other words, he's saying if you get stopped and searched for pot b/c the officer thinks he smells it, and instead they find an 8-ball of coke, you'd be innocent b/c they didn't have probable cause established for cocaine.


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## brodus (Dec 23, 2004)

Like I said in my original post...keep the shit at home, and you'll never need to worry about this shiaat.


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 23, 2004)

*.*



			
				brodus said:
			
		

> This coming from someone who has never worked a PH/PS case, since there have been exactly ZERO so far.
> 
> This is pure speculation, and not based on any precedent.
> 
> In other words, he's saying if you get stopped and searched for pot b/c the officer thinks he smells it, and instead they find an 8-ball of coke, you'd be innocent b/c they didn't have probable cause established for cocaine.




     If I pull you over for speeding and ask you to search your car for any drugs or illegal weapons and you say yes (notice I did not say what kind of drugs) and I find cocaine and arrest you, I still have to cite you for speeding because that was my reason for the stop in the first place, If you dont do that then shit might go wrong in court......


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 24, 2004)

.


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## law74 (Dec 24, 2004)

Actually majored in philosophy at an ivy league school.  Also don't charge my clients a thing.  I work by court appointment only so the fee is free.  I could work in the private sector and make a ton of money but I do believe in the 4th Amendment that is why I choose public service.  DOn't you dare question my morality boy.


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## law74 (Dec 24, 2004)

If your lawyer ripped you off, tough shit.  I don't get clients off on technicalities, unless of course you consider a little thing like the constitution and the rule of law a technicality.  It is attitudes like yours that allow freedom to evaporate just because cops tell you something is a threat.  Read a book for god's sake.  Also just because cops may do something does not make it legal or right.  Sorry, but I am much more scarred of cops with the unlimited ability to search and detain citizens, than whether somebody is transporting pot in their car.  I don't think a cop should ever be able to search a car for drugs.


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 24, 2004)

*.*



			
				law74 said:
			
		

> If your lawyer ripped you off, tough shit.  I don't get clients off on technicalities, unless of course you consider a little thing like the constitution and the rule of law a technicality.  It is attitudes like yours that allow freedom to evaporate just because cops tell you something is a threat.  Read a book for god's sake.  Also just because cops may do something does not make it legal or right.  Sorry, but I am much more scarred of cops with the unlimited ability to search and detain citizens, than whether somebody is transporting pot in their car.  I don't think a cop should ever be able to search a car for drugs.





            Idiot.


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## Twigz (Dec 24, 2004)

Yeah, right on Law, fight the power. Oh, ahh wait I am that power. Law you have some issues witht he laws that allow us to serve the public. For some reason you decided to become a defense attoney and now beieve that all cops are evil, sceeming, lying, cheating ..... bastards. Well, i'm here to tell you that ost cops are not. Most of us try to help people out. I did'nt sign up for this job to throw everyone in jail. Also if we were never allowed to search for drugs, then think of all the crap that would be floating around out there. We do this job to protect the community, and try to supply a better way of life in the U.S. 

 You seem to be blaming the cops for all this, when in fact we are just doing what the law makers of this country (which are elected by the majority) tell, or order us to do.

You also seem really worried about this who drug thing. Did your supplier get busted or what?


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 24, 2004)

*dude*



			
				Twigz said:
			
		

> Yeah, right on Law, fight the power. Oh, ahh wait I am that power. Law you have some issues witht he laws that allow us to serve the public. For some reason you decided to become a defense attoney and now beieve that all cops are evil, sceeming, lying, cheating ..... bastards. Well, i'm here to tell you that ost cops are not. Most of us try to help people out. I did'nt sign up for this job to throw everyone in jail. Also if we were never allowed to search for drugs, then think of all the crap that would be floating around out there. We do this job to protect the community, and try to supply a better way of life in the U.S.
> 
> You seem to be blaming the cops for all this, when in fact we are just doing what the law makers of this country (which are elected by the majority) tell, or order us to do.
> 
> You also seem really worried about this who drug thing. Did your supplier get busted or what?





Man this guy is an idiot is you read all my posts and his. He doesn't even answer to all the things I wrote to him........Did you read anything I wrote?? becasue he is ignoring it all.


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## Twigz (Dec 25, 2004)

I hope you are not calling me the idiot. I think you mean Law right? Because I agree with what you are saying QG.   You know what they are like if you have been to court. We are all corupt, and power hungry. 

Well im off to illegaly search people and violate someones rights.....


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 25, 2004)

*hahaha*



			
				Twigz said:
			
		

> I hope you are not calling me the idiot. I think you mean Law right? Because I agree with what you are saying QG.   You know what they are like if you have been to court. We are all corupt, and power hungry.
> 
> Well im off to illegaly search people and violate someones rights.....





Yup, Thats what we cops do of course. I meant law is an idiot not you. I am sorry for offending him like that so many times but all those post I wrote come down to one thing: " GIVE US SOME FUCKING RESPECT " that's my objective, to make people understand that. Most of the lawyers I know are pretty respectfull and cool with the officers, but of course when they protect a client they play dirty. I just don't get it, I wrote all this stuff in my posts and he totally ignores it.


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 25, 2004)

*yup!!!!*



			
				Twigz said:
			
		

> Well im off to illegally search people and violate someones rights.....





             Make sure you steal money from people and use unlawful excessive force.


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## RCfootball87 (Dec 28, 2004)

brodus said:
			
		

> When I tried the "I know the law" spiel, I got arrested.  I also heard that giving a statement was a bad idea, so I didn't.  Well, this showed the officers and detective just how interested I was in cooperating.  You all realize these notes go to the DA who has seen everything before, right?  Which also get to the judge, who determines sentence and punishment?  Needless to say, painting the officers and detectives as combatants is only asking for a fight, and you WILL lose, trust me.


Well you want to know the law and your rights and shut up about them not yell it out like a madman, but you also don't want to openly cooperate with all the meaningless demands that some disgruntled cops make.  If they ask to search your car try politely asking "Am I being accused of some kind of crime?"
  My problem is I have a tendency to snap off because I hate like 8 out of 10 cops I've ever met, and in my neighborhood, you don't talk to the cops.  But I was once giving a statement about a car accident while in possesion of marijuana and a switchblade, you just have to reemmber that the cop is dealing with something different and had no reason to suspect me, 15 years old at the time, of any wrong doing, so I was totally safe.


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## BigDyl (Dec 28, 2004)

WTH, is everyone a cop that posts on these forums?!

Shit!

**Hides his soon to be illegal pro-hormones**

I mean uhh, pro-protien....


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## RCfootball87 (Dec 28, 2004)

Twigz said:
			
		

> Also if we were never allowed to search for drugs, then think of all the crap that would be floating around out there. We do this job to protect the community, and try to supply a better way of life in the U.S.


I could honestly give a fuck about drugs floating around the community, if illegal drugs were legalized, it would save an incredible amont of taxpayer dollars, let a whole lot of people out of jail that shouldn't be there, and save a whole lot of people from getting killed, cops included.  It's scary how they can look at prohibition, a virtually identical situation that was resolved by lifting the law, and just continue to throw money away and people in prison. It's sad. Alcohol is legal and it's more dangerous than most illegal drugs as far as causing violence is concerned.  And don't start with this 'everyone would be on drugs...' thing.  Drugs are not hard to get for most peolpe and they never will be, the cat's out of the bag and the government might as well except that and move on.


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## law74 (Dec 28, 2004)

Benjamin Franklin said "He who trades liberty for security, deserves neither liberty nor security." Sorry to ignore. Not my intention at all. I don't have any problem with cops at all. My cousin is a cop and I hang out with him pretty frequently, we get along great. Cops serve an essential function in this country. My problem is with fundamental freedoms being stripped away because Drugs are such a "threat" to society. I am not afraid of most cops. I am concerned with the power that we as citizens have handed over to the state in order to protect us from the evil black drug dealing menance. Most cops use this power responsibly, however there are some who don't. I really do think the founders of this country would be astounded at the level of intrusion the government has into our lives today. The 4th Amendment was placed in the Constitution for a reason, to protect us, the citizens, from the government. However, once you hand over a freedom it is usually gone for good. The freedoms from governmental intrusion and interference that took centuries to secure can be lost in an instant and are next to impossible to get back. And just because the government is not kicking in my door today doesn't mean they absolutely won't tommorrow. the power that we hand over to the government to protect us today can easily be used agaisnt us tommorrow. So my problem is based upon principle. I did not intend to offend any particular law enforcement officers.  But I distrust all forms of organized power, just the way Thomas Jefferson told me I should.!!!


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## law74 (Dec 28, 2004)

Also, I appreciate the hard work you officers perform, but it is the very fact that drugs are illegal that causes all of the social problems associated with them.  If a person wants to sit around his house and smoke crack all day that is fine with me.  The problem is because drugs are illegal the price becomes ridiculuosly inflated.  This leads the drug addict to either (1) Commit crimes to feed his habit, 0r (2) begin selling drugs himself.  If cocaine was a legal product a kilo would cost about $10.  It is more difficult to refine sugar.  So if a guy wants to do coke until his head explodes, fine with me.  I don't use drugs for various reasons but I just firmly believe that the government should not be acting as my parent and telling me what I can and can not do.  If I am only hurting myself that is my decision.  If I go out driving and hurt someone charge me with a crime.  My freedom ends where your nose begins.  But I don't want the government all up in my nose, and playing with my urine.  The world would function just fine if drugs were legalized.  Just slap a big warning on the bottle that says "IF you do this it will fuck up your life and probably kill you."  That way we could build more schools instead of prisons.  Many European countries have had remarkable success with legalizing or at least decriminalizing narcotics.  This is my last post on this subject.  I know this will make you all very happy.  Just a final thought.  Is anyone on this board a criminal because they are using prohormones today.  Are they horrible deginerate people.  Well after Jan.20 these people are now criminals.  Law abiding one day, A felon the next.  It makes no sense to me why someone who is not hurting anyone else should be labled a criminal for what they put in their "own" body.


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## BigDyl (Dec 28, 2004)

Heh, this law guy knows his stuff....

I think...


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## iMan323 (Dec 28, 2004)

I like libertarians too.


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## G-man (Dec 28, 2004)

law74 said:
			
		

> Benjamin Franklin said "He who trades liberty for security, deserves neither liberty nor security."


 "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both". 
 Benjamin Franklin

 "If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny".
 Thomas Jefferson


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 28, 2004)

Well I always said that this country is not all that "FREE" like the people who have been living here all their life say, but then they start bitching at me. This country is just inflated and trus me we are not "free", dont get me wrong I love our country but please, before you judge that our country is "free" and the greatest, do some traveling instead of watching the news.......oh and yeah, dont compare yourself just to iraq and bullshit countries like that.........GOD BLESS US ALL, THE WORLD....

As for everything else, lets just drop it and let this thread rest in piece.......I love my job and my future and I feel happy about it, there are people who will never understand and never respect the "EVIL POLICE" but that is fine with me, I dont mind being called names for the job I do, I just wish that people see how things are thru our (the police) eyes, becasue we sure do also see thru your eyes, but we still havea  job to do. And as for the cops in someones neighboor hood, well I dont talk to people I dont know either when im in civilian clothers so why dont you introduce yourself...sure there are assholes out there but just becasue a guy pulls you over to do his job and gives you a tickets or takes you to jail doesnt mean that he is an asshole................But im just a rookie who cares to much to do the right thing and make people understand but I guess ill grow used to it and not even bother to talk about things that I did above in other posts.........


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## BigDyl (Dec 28, 2004)

Geez, QuestionGuy, I know your passionate about your job, but sometimes your rants sound crazy.

I'm curious to see if anyone can out argue this law guy.  I sure as hell could not.  I do agree with alot of what he is saying though.


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## RCfootball87 (Dec 28, 2004)

QuestionGuy said:
			
		

> I dont mind being called names for the job I do,


Pig...........just kidding


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## Twigz (Dec 29, 2004)

*I'll try*

Ok, BigD I will try to argue the other side. Go get something to drink and eat and use the bathroom, before you start reading. 

First of, the basic message is that "big brother" is controlling us by making drugs illegal. This in a way is true, but for the other part it is used to protect us. Let me ask you if you would allow your work to test your blood every time that you go in for a day of work? Now, I know that most of use said "hell no", but consider the fact that you are a doctor, or a brain surgeon. Now if you were having surgery today on any part of your body for that matter, would you want your doctor to be stoned, or whacked out on LSD. I sure as hell would not. Now, people say that this wouldn't happen because it would be just like alcohol, where you just couldn't be under the influence while working, but what way do we currently have to test for the presence of now illegal drugs. One of the best methods that I know is blood, but then when you go to work you would have to give a blood draw every day. Also alot of drugs are hard to, and expensive to test for, not to mention that some are out of the system in short periods of time well still haveing lasting effects. 

Second, the statement that Law makes with the fact that drug are illegal, which in turn causes all the problems "commit crimes to feed habit, and begin selling drugs". This is in essence true, but drugs also cause other problems, which may lead to crimes, not just to feed there habit. Lets take PCP/Ketamine. These substances cause people to become deranged, profuse sweating, increased pain thresholds, increased strength, extreme body heat, causing then to frequently take off all there clothing, and slow and incomplete responses to stimulus. This would be a great on to legalize due to the fact that we don't have enough crazy's running around on the streets now. Then there are the hallucinogens, which you can pretty much guess how poeple act on those. Now when it's legal and everyone can just walk into there local walmart and pick up a bottle, including kids because we all know that kids can and will get it when just as they do with cigs and alcohol, the problems will become more wide spread than what they are now, and people complain about paying higher insurance for smokers with health problems......

This will still lead to crimes, thefts would most likely sky rocket (subsequently causing the average consumer to pay for the losses with increased prices of everything else), due to the fact that a lot of the drugs are either physically or psychologically addictive. This would cause the person to crave the drug and in turn as is the case may times now, they would do anything and everything to obtain the product.  

You also say that "If I am just hurting myself that is my decision. If  go out driving and hurt someone charge me with a crime. This is one of the problems that we are trying to deter. Why wait for some whack job high on crack to run over your family on the sidewalk. I would much rather prevent them from even having that chance. Its like alcohol, that is legal and people still don't respect it the way they should. People constantly have the opinion that they are not that drunk, so they can drive. This would increase by unknown amounts if they now had the choice between drugs, and/or alcohol. 

There are way to many variables to look into, before you blindly make a statement about legalizing all drugs, just because the only reason that they cause problems, is due to the fact that they are legal.

Third, the founding fathers made the constitution amendable due to the fact that they wanted it to flex to fit the times, as times have definitely changed since the U.S.A. was established. I do believe in the constitution, and I know that some laws are crap, I won't argue with that, but for the most part the laws and constitution are put in place to defend that majority of the population.

Fourth, The government is not kicking your door down due to the fact that you are not doing things that are deemed illegal by the "elected" politicians that represent this nation, but yes if you do start to do thing illegally you are right, they will send proper personnel to do so. If you do not agree with the way things are going than voice your opinions at the polls. I know everyone says this doesn't help, but t should if enough people get off their lazy asses and do it. 

Fifth, you distrust all forms of organized power? This makes me worry. Due you just wish to have people do as they wish? If I am correct you are just stating a famous quote "absolute power, corrupts absolutely", I think thats it. In this matter I agree, the more power that we let them take out of our hands and place into there own, the more they will take from us, but like I said earlier f more people would pay attention and do something about the asshole politicians that just keep taking, the people could have the power, that they should. 

Last, (finally, sorry ) no people that use prohormones, or any drug for that matter are not horrible degenerates, but prohormones are most likely being banned due to the fact that someone thinks that they are dangerous, and misleading. In a way I agree with then, I have seen the products, and read the labels. At least the ones that I have seen don't mention that you need post cycle treatment, or any other thing that may happen. On the other hand I do also agree with you to a point, that people should be able to do things with there own bodies, but they should do so with the correct information before they start. 

One other thing that bothered me was your comment "evil black drug dealing menace" sorry to bring race up, but were you trying to state that this is in some way bias towards "African American" (hope that's politically correct still) ?

SORRY, so long, just trying to be specific.


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## Pirate! (Dec 29, 2004)

law74 said:
			
		

> Benjamin Franklin said "He who trades liberty for security, deserves neither liberty nor security." Sorry to ignore. Not my intention at all. I don't have any problem with cops at all. My cousin is a cop and I hang out with him pretty frequently, we get along great. Cops serve an essential function in this country. My problem is with fundamental freedoms being stripped away because Drugs are such a "threat" to society. I am not afraid of most cops. I am concerned with the power that we as citizens have handed over to the state in order to protect us from the evil black drug dealing menance. Most cops use this power responsibly, however there are some who don't. I really do think the founders of this country would be astounded at the level of intrusion the government has into our lives today. The 4th Amendment was placed in the Constitution for a reason, to protect us, the citizens, from the government. However, once you hand over a freedom it is usually gone for good. The freedoms from governmental intrusion and interference that took centuries to secure can be lost in an instant and are next to impossible to get back. And just because the government is not kicking in my door today doesn't mean they absolutely won't tommorrow. the power that we hand over to the government to protect us today can easily be used agaisnt us tommorrow. So my problem is based upon principle. I did not intend to offend any particular law enforcement officers.  But I distrust all forms of organized power, just the way Thomas Jefferson told me I should.!!!


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 29, 2004)

Twigz said:
			
		

> Ok, BigD I will try to argue the other side. Go get something to drink and eat and use the bathroom, before you start reading. .........................................................................................................................................................................................................................the whole post.............................................................................................................................................................................................................
> SORRY, so long, just trying to be specific.






that was good, By the way, did you know that president bush canceled gov funding to the "COPS" show???? The COPS show payed for equipement like vests and other stuff for the department but now our great president fucked it up......



Everything else was nice in you post, I wish you freaking back me up here, im fighting to get people to see stuff thru our eyes here not just think we are assholes......LOL, I know it'll never happen...


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## RCfootball87 (Dec 30, 2004)

QuestionGuy said:
			
		

> that was good, By the way, did you know that president bush canceled gov funding to the "COPS" show???? The COPS show payed for equipement like vests and other stuff for the department but now our great president fucked it up......
> 
> 
> 
> Everything else was nice in you post, I wish you freaking back me up here, im fighting to get people to see stuff thru our eyes here not just think we are assholes......LOL, I know it'll never happen...


Good he cancelled funding to "Cops."  It's propaganda bullshit.  Go ahead and show cops when theirs a show on a competing network called "Thug$" were gangsters film themselves running around being big men like the cops on that show think they are, and donate it to incarcerated felons.  Knowing that show is no longer publicly funded makes me happy.  I guess you can kinda tell I hate most cops.  Although there's exceptions, a lot of guys on this forum who are cops taught me a lot about supps, so I can't argue with that.  I guess my experiences with cops and former law breaking ways have skewed my viewpoint.  At least I admit I'm biased, unlike CNN


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## brodus (Dec 30, 2004)

> I'm curious to see if anyone can out argue this law guy.



Please read my arguments in threads 48 through 56.  [If you need an outline with key points highlights and the responses (or lack thereof), I can provide something tommorrow.]

Note that none of my key points were addressed by the "law man" who flexes his "ivy league" degree, yet whose own command of language and lack of original thought positions him firmly in the realm of an amatuer thinker, at best.  He still operates within a pedestrian false dichotomy of us vs. them, which is compounded by his general naivete regarding steet life and organized criminal activity; all of which is viewed through the glasses of a stoned revisionist historian who hasn't lived nearly as much as he pretends.  If you gather up all of his points and string them together, aside from being a regurgitation of a tired and unrealistic platform, you'll notice that the epsitemic weight of his points is rather flimsy and not at all based in the realm of fact, but in the realm of hypothesis and fancy.  Of course, that's if you chose to think that deeply.  If you want to keep running around circular logic, you certainly have that choice, as "lawman" has inarticulately explained.  In order for his points to work, you must become insensitive to mountains of evidence, and enter a realm not unlike being stoned.  Not to mention you have to pretend the US is the same as an imperialist monarchy when weighing their actions, which is an apples-to-oranges juxtaposition I am unwilling to subscribe to.  

Isn't it so much easier to see, based on blatant fact, that elements of criminal underground are deserving of much more fear than the police?  Of course, if all you worry about is getting off on your dope charge in white suburbia, perhaps.  Where I live, the vast majority of people approve of GREATER police involvement, not less, b/c people who commit crimes don't play by any of the rules the police do, and consistently wreck the good created by the majority.  

But, nonetheless, I guess it's easier to play faux thinker or "progressive" when in fact nothing that has been said by "lawman" is revolutionary or forward-thinking.


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## brodus (Dec 30, 2004)

BTW, SciFit just released 50mg. M1T capsules and markets them as "equal to 15mg. D-Bol."

How can anyone who knows what's up with M1T honestly think that's okay?

Well, anyone that gives a fuck about anything other than themself?


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## Twigz (Dec 30, 2004)

Go brodus. You are right that cops have to play by the rules. I have to worry about following the rules ever time that  make an arrest. If by chance I don't follow the slightest rule, the guy that just killed 12 people, and sold crack to second graders would get off. On the contrary. the criminal gets to do whatever they wish. He wants to walk into a building and shot 20 people he can. Then I have to go in there and give him the chance to surrender. After hours of talking about how life real isnt that bad, and he should just give up.... . Then we go in and he basically has to shoot me before I am allowed to shot at him. Then I get to perform CPR on him to attempt to save his life after he just killed those people and attempted to kill me. When this is over, I then get to read about myself in all the local anti-cop printed material (aka newspapers). Were everyone says that he was such a nice man, that he always kept to himself, and never would hurt a fly. The cop on the other hand has a complaint in his file from 10 years ago that says he was to rough on some 400 lb, whacked out lunitic on PCP (complaint submitted by lunitics wife). Why did that mean cop have to shoot him in the chest. He should have just shot him in the leg, or shot the gun out of his hands (like we all see is so easy in the movies)  .

Ok, I feel better now. Anyways most people have no idea what is is like to see the shit we see in a day, and they never will thanks to the brave men and women that serve this country everyday to prevent everyone else from having to deal with this crap. QG no worries, I got you back anytime you need it. Stay Safe.


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## brodus (Dec 30, 2004)

My precinct here in Chicago deals with over 50 homicides per year, including innocent drive bys.  Believe me, no one in my neighborhood doubts the importance of the police.  We are all part of a community...any one who tries to pit citizens against police officers who operate within multiple layers of law in a democratic nation state has suffered a breakdown in understanding.   Actually, in my experience, the only people who hate police officers are people who are breaking laws, and they take it out on cops instead of trying to legitimately change laws via the established channels....and if they lose, the holler "conspiracy," when instead all they have witnessed is democracy and majority rule.


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## Pirate! (Dec 30, 2004)

brodus said:
			
		

> BTW, SciFit just released 50mg. M1T capsules and markets them as "equal to 15mg. D-Bol."
> 
> How can anyone who knows what's up with M1T honestly think that's okay?
> 
> Well, anyone that gives a fuck about anything other than themself?


And for the last week I thought this guy was full of shit: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11781&item=5545716084&rd=1


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## PreMier (Dec 30, 2004)

Someone is going to die..


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## law74 (Dec 30, 2004)

Brodus, first, if you are going to try to use big words at least know what they mean. Epsitemic is not even a word man. Did you mean like epistemological, as in the theory of science and knowledge?  There is no such word. Also Brodus, you in no way adressed any of my points, instead you merely tried the old refutation by denigration technique, which is truley lame and "played out," in which you merely try to attack the messenger without addressing the message.   These things are really cute.
I really was trying to let this die but you just keep this on a respirator. It is a fucking zombie. I never said I hate cops. I just don't trust them. I don't trust most people. Sorry Twigz, but I am not buying that tired old argument about how tough you poor cops have it. You signed up for this shit when you became a cop. If you don't like the rules you can quit. It is also a bullshit argument to complain about "I make one mistake and the murderer gets off." That is such a load of shit. Yeah maybe the gun that you illegally seized was suppressed, possibly the confession that you obtained by violating his rights might get thrown out, but if your case is even halfway decent you have nothing to worry about. I have only seen one murderer (besides OJ) ever get away with it, regardless of what evidence was suppressed. I have seen many innocent people go away to jail for very long periods of time. Look into the innocence project at NorthWestern University or the programs at Columbia that are getting men off of death row. Men who were innocent, the DNA evidence proved it!!! And you want me to just role over and have me blindly trust you because you are some fucking hero cop. No way!! My job is to keep you as honest as possible. If you do your job right, you have nothing to worry about from me because there is very little I can do. If you are incompetent and abusive, or lazy and just bring in any old suspect who might be a match, I will give you hell. As I should. If you do your job right you will never have any serious problems. Think of us defense attorneys as internal affairs with law degrees. Only us public defenders get paid even less than a rookie police officer who only has a high school diploma. Your job is hard as hell. You have to deal with very difficult and stressful situations. your life is on the line. Guess what, Taxi drivers have a greater chance of being killed doing their job than you do in yours. The point is everyone has a hard job. You choose this line of work. I deal with the same people you do. I represent alot of them. Some are indeed very bad people. Quite a few need to be locked up for a very long time. However, many of the people I have represented, people I heard the police speak of so disdainfully while waiting at the jail to interview, I discover are pretty decent people. Some down on their luck, quite a few mentally ill without proper medication or treatment, and many, many drug addicts, who have no business being in a prison. 
I can come up with a million examples of how police have abused their authority. you can come up with a million examples about how much defense attorneys suck balls. the point is people need us as much as they need police officers. You protect them from the immediate threat. We protect them from the ever lurking and potential threat of abuse of power. That is why our founders designed an adversarial justice system. Read about the Star Chamber some time. Occured in Britain. Sir Walter raleigh had a hell of a time. We are just one of the many checks and balances in place.
Last, so what if Sci-Fit has 50 mg m1t. Should people who use Sci-Fit go to prison for a mandatory 10 years. The answer is no. Well we do that to drug addicts every day. Locking someone up with a disease is a crime in my opinion. Should Sci-Fit be punished. Sure, In a civil court, for failing to warn the customer about the danger. Possibly criminal negligence in knowing the risk of the product and still failing to warn. But if you give people a warning the problem is then theirs. I am all for personal responsibility. And all of the problems of street life you talk about, I probably know more than you. I engage the community, hang out with people from the community, try to be active in these communities. I do not just ride around in a car and jump out for 5 minutes to shake down some kids on a corner. I have been harrassed and assaulted by cops for being white and being in these neighborhoods. They get scarred now when they find out I am a lawyer. They don't like those complaints in their folders. they li9ke it even less when you file lawsuits against the city for being abused by police officers and win!! Do your job, do it right, and be an exemplary police officer. People will then respect you, as they should. But respect and trust are earned, never given.


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## law74 (Dec 30, 2004)

OK that is it for me. No more! Let us get back to talking about supplements and weightlifting. that is what we are all here for anyway.


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## brodus (Dec 30, 2004)

First of all, Epistemic is a word, but I wouldn't expect you to know that:

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry?id=e0182700

The fact that you doubted that erases your importance from my mind.  




> Guess what, Taxi drivers have a greater chance of being killed doing their job than you do in yours.



BULLSHIT...if you view yourself as internal affairs with a degree, I'm the secret service motherfucker, and you're full of shit.

In the *U.S. AND Canada * there were _606 fatalities TOTAL _ from 1980 to 1994.

http://c.rathbone.home.att.net/list.txt

If you're not a cabbie in NYC, your risk is extremely low.

In contrast, there were 154 officer fatalities in 2004, which is lower than the average of 164.  By extrapolation, during a 14 year period at a low average of 150 per year, that makes *2100 in the U.S. Alone*.

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=41056

Now, you might say that not all were shootings, and you'd be correct.  We don't have taxi numbers for shootings either, but for your sake we'll pretend they were all shot.  AT a low average of 57 per year, we get 798 shooting fatalities during the same time period--again, this is only the U.S., too.



> Among other significant findings contained in the report was a sharp increase in the number of federal law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty (eight in 2004, compared to one in 2003), and a _growing trend of more deaths resulting from traffic-related accidents (72) than from shootings (57)._



If we were to factor in all forms of death, the numbers would be even more slanted toward police officers.

More recent numbers indicate the same thing:



> During the four-year period 1998-2001, at least 141 cab drivers were murdered in the United States



That's slightly over 35 per year, again, nowhere near the 57 per average for police officers.  

Furthermore, police are on the receiving end of non-fatal assault to a much larger degree as well:

From the OSHA safety bulletin:

"Taxi and livery drivers are also among those with
the highest rates of nonfatal assault???183.8 per
1,000???exceeded only by police (306.0 per 1,000)
and private security guards (217.8 per 1,000)"



> And all of the problems of street life you talk about, I probably know more than you. I engage the community, hang out with people from the community, try to be active in these communities. I do not just ride around in a car and jump out for 5 minutes to shake down some kids on a corner.



Once again, you're totally off-base in your assumptions.  I've lived in the middle of NYC and Chicago, where I currently reside.  I actuall "live" in these "neighborhoods," hang and entertain in my area, and know the cops, too.  But, like most mildly educated people, you think in dichotomies, you probably still use terms like liberal and conservative, and you think anyone who views the cops as "the enemy" will be seen as hip, and people who don't are square or conservative, or whatever thin adjective you pick.  To be honest, where I live, the assumption among everyone is the only crooked ones in the equation are the lawyers.  That goes for the bars and clubs I work in, the police officers, YES the defendants, the dealers.  We all know where we stand when the ball is in play.  Anyone transporting drugs knows what the fuck they are doing. 

 When in fuck do you ever put your neck on the line for anyone?  I saw a total drunk jackass who was grabbing girls inappropriately get beat down last night for calling my neighbor, the doorman, a n**** and swinging at him.  He left in an ambulance--thank god you weren't there.   

What's the worst thing that can happen to you?  You lose a case?  It's not like you're going to do time in jail for that, or nurse a broken arm.  Quit painting yourself like some honorable civil servant.  You didn't even know language from whence law came until I schooled you, bitch.


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## brodus (Dec 30, 2004)

Anyone who thinks it's cool that a company is selling M1T @ 50mg., and takes the "buyer beware" stance, is an idiot in my book. Why the fuck do people like you protect enterprise and capitalism more than you protect social well-being...don't answer, that was rhetorical, and I already know every possible argument you have, as I've already read the books you probably still work out of.  It's just an expression of exasperation.  There is something fundamentally wrong with you if you think it's okay for a company to sell 50mg. caps of M1T.


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## QuestionGuy (Dec 30, 2004)

LawDUDE is an Idiot alright. God there is so much I want to say but I am not going to becasue it's going to be long and to emotional and complicated.....So whatever, keep your asses safe out there boy's, and make sure you steal money from drug dealers !!! aiight ??


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## law74 (Dec 30, 2004)

Well spell the fucking word right next time you fucking tard. I am right there is no such fucking word as epsitemic. Your problem, not mine. And I guessed correctly at what word you were attempting to spell after rumaging feverishly through your Roget's Thesaurus For Cops. You poor boy. I know you are smart, even if you are a cop. You don't have to prove anything to me. Don't be so insecure. Keep that gun on your side, it will distract the girls from noticing the conspicuous lack of bulge in your pants. They will never know you have a small penis. That is why you became a cop. Otherwise, if you really wanted to do something useful you would have been a firefighter. These guys truly are community servants. You are an insecure little boy who can only hurl insults. Why do you feel so threatened. I never insulted you. Yet you attack me. Why? Was your mommy neglectful? Did your daddy touch you in places? Give me a break. I know you will break my head. you are a cop right? 
Sorry but living in a building with a doorman does not qualify you as "living in these communities."  The communities I am talking about don't have doors sometimes, much less doormen. You punk ass bitch. I lived in the heart of Bushwick doing student teaching work. I put my neck on the line for nothing other than to help people. I didn't get a police car, I didn't get a gun. I didn't get to hang out in clubs and collect overtime pay like you, you fucking nimrod. If you want to help and you truly are as altruistic as you are claiming go down to the South Side of Chicago and volunteer to be a mentor for a kid. Help work in a soup kitchen. You get alot of nice benefits for being a cop. do something where the only benefit is the way you helped out. no money, no nothing. Then you can talk to me. Otherwise eat a doughnut you fucking pig!!! You wanted insults, you wanted name calling, well now I am finally wallowing in the mud with you pigs. Fuck You, Fuck this board. Too many fucking cops. Probably just trying to find out who is stocking up on PH/PS so they can bust people after the ban. No, half the cops I know do steroids and brag about it. You all are the fucking worst. Remember there are special places in hell reserved for hypocrites.
And you are the one protecting capitalism by supporting the continued construction of prisons to house nonviolent offenders. You have completely failed to address any substantive argument I have made. you lose.


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## Curlingcadys (Dec 30, 2004)

QG, I don't think I've seen someone get burned sooooo bad....ouch! put some ointment on that!


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## topolo (Dec 30, 2004)

I agree with Brodus


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## law74 (Dec 30, 2004)

Watch out who you agree with.  I saw in buy and trade that you said you stocked up on M1t and would probalby do a cycle or two next year.  Well these jokers have no problem with putting you in jail for that.  And if they don't I am very curious as to why not.  Any answers.


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## brodus (Dec 30, 2004)

> Otherwise eat a doughnut you fucking pig!!!



Nice, dude.  I liked your little attempt at making a creative jab; that Roget's thing was cute, I think I read someone write something similar in 9th grade English.  Not that it matters, since I don't own a Thesaurus,  Now if you could extend that spark of creative brilliance to think beyond your pedantic us-versus-them-ism, maybe you wouldn't be so angry, and you'd have time to realize that a lot of words can be used creatively as adjectives.

And the way you glossed over the fact that your Taxi/Cop analogy was total bullshit was classic lawyer-ese.  Tell me, in a court of law, when someone makes accusations and cannot find sources to back up what they say, while the other party does provide sources, what happens?  

BTW, I'm not a cop, I live in a rent-controlled building in Humboldt Park which has the highest homicide rate in town, I volunteer regularly throughout Chicago.  Maybe I mis-spelled Epistemic b/c I heard a siren outside of my window and looked up for a second.

You obviously hate cops.  That's too bad.  You obviously have a naieve perception of how things actually work in the world.  That the very machinations of big city policing, which you mock, are what allow us to maintain our illusion of relative safety among truly nasty people.  

Well, I hate lawyers.  I have more education in the core proficiencies than most lawyers, and I don't like the fact that they get paid to let guilty people dodge bullets of justice.  I especially hate when they step out of their sphere of knowledge, which really is the letter of the law, chain of precendence, and the "personality" of various districts, and then lecture people on things they read about or wish were true.

The advice you've given, namely play hardball with the cops when you're knowinlgy breaking the law,  has gotten me and a lot of my firends in a ton more trouble than we needed to get in.  We were young and impressionable and believed the bullshit you spew, and it got us fucked, legally.  This is why I'm not getting off your ass.  All of your arguments are built around a pseudo-anti-establishment platform, when in reality, it's all about getting your QP of B.C. Bud to your friends house, and if a cop bugs you, FUCK THEM...talk about displaced anger.



> And you are the one protecting capitalism by supporting the continued construction of prisons to house nonviolent offenders.



I know your mad about your friend doing time for selling pot.  Maybe if he earned income the way the rest of society does, people would care more.  But they don't, and that's the root of your anger...but please, don't take it out on the guys that bust burglars in my backyard, and catch the Wicker Park rapist.

Sleep tight, angry man.


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## brodus (Dec 30, 2004)

I have all the illegal PHs I want.  I stocked up probably more than anyone here.  I will not be driving with them so this case is moot.  If I did drive with them and was busted, that's my fault for being a dumbass.  We lost the PH battle.  The answer isn't to break the law and then say "it's my right." I've tried that one before a judge...trust me, it doesn't work.  

The answer is to be part of the democratic process, which is slow, plodding, and fair to all.  Of course, people in support of PH didn't do this.  It was part of my original threads--my anger at the lack of a solid front on the part of PH users and manufacturers.  Without that, I know nothing could have happened.  The greedy bastards got what they wanted--your money--and didn't do anything to secure the market once they realized the snowball was rolling downhill against them.  Not to mention MLB sucks a big fat dick for not being proactively involved, and forcing Congress to have hearings, when there were much more important things like wars going on.  Of course, I watched everything live on C-Span, and reported it here, but most people are content making sweeping assessments of McCain and everyone else, when in fact, no one I've spoken with actually watched all the debates and hearings save myself, and perhaps DiMaggio at USFA.biz.

You win some, you lose some...but smart drug users of any kind who truly understand the game and who aren't trying to profit from the underground market rarely get busted.  Like I said before, ride a bike if you must transport.  Searching a house is infinitely more difficult than a car.


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## law74 (Dec 30, 2004)

I don't do drugs, never have, never will.  Believe they should be legal on principle, not out of self-interest.  Don't dislike cops.  Read my post.   Like many cops.  Cops do keep us safe from the bad people.  however, I don't agree with the government creating a class of bad people legislatively.  I believe law should only restrict activities that directly, not indirectly harm others.  That is all.  I am not angry.  I am very peaceful.  Aikido, way of the peaceful warrior.  I don't get paid shit.  I don't get guilty people off.  I protect you, the same way a cop does.  If it wasn't for lawyers you would not have any of the rights you do have.  If most cops and government agents had their way yes we would all be very safe.  We would also be living in a fascist dictator state.  i like all the messy freedom that we have.  Always when it comes to drug arguments any one on the prohibition side can not win.  Look at alcohol prohibition.  It did not, can not, and will never work.  So why are drug addicts criminals while cigarettes and beer is still legal.  Should people who do PH/Ps be in prison.  I seriously don't believe so.  If you do i am really curious how you can justify it.  Sorry but social acceptability is not enough justification for putting someone in prison.  Cops don't make these shitty laws they just enforce them.  I know this.  Cops, lawyers both necessary.  Both scumbags in the eyes of the world.


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## Twigz (Dec 30, 2004)

Brodus, you are great. I wish we had more people out there like you, and less people like law. 
I personally help take on crooked cop off the streets because he was stepping over the line of right and wrong. I could have just stood by and watched the shit go through court, as no one would have ever known, but I decided to bring up the discrepancies that i witnessed, so as not to have innocent people spending time in jail. 

I have also sat on the porch with some kids, husbands, wifes, etc. that did some things that I sure as hell could have locked them up for, but I didn't I had the time to sit and mediate, even though that is not part of my job. Like I said before, I signed up for this job to help my community not to toss people behind bars. Many times my fellow officers look at me like I am nuts, or even tell me that I should have just booked them, but it all comes down to attitude. I'm not here to prove what a stud I am, or beat on people.

I do find it interesting that you bring in the arguments that "Did daddy touch you in places?" or "was your mommy neglecful?" because these I have seen used by defence lawyers before. 

Oh and I do believe that Brodus was argueing points that you brought up and he squashed with FACTS. 

So you go right ahead and call me crooked, and power hungry cop, but I treat people as I wish to be treated, defence attorney, crook, citizen. I don't care who you are, if you have not messed with me than I have no problems with you, just doing my job, nothing personal. I did know what i was getting into when I signed for this job, and i don't want your pity, I gladly take those chances everyday so that no one else has to. The thing that irritates me is the simple fact that people like you hate me just because I wear a badge.


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## law74 (Dec 30, 2004)

Who hates you.  I love you.  Seriously.  Brodus you are a decent fellow as well.  but how you can advocate breaking the law and then claim to be for law enforcement is beyond me.  I advocate everyone obey the law, whether you agree with it or not.  I do agree with your rants about the PH scare and the democratic process though.  But you do realize that you have just given law enforcement the ability to subpoena the internet records from this diatribe, find out who you are, and conduct very invasive searches of your house and person.  Will they, who knows, maybe, maybe not.  Once again, I DO NOT HATE COPS!!!  I don't even know why i have to state this.  Why is it that if you criticize a particular practice you hate all the people.  Shit I criticize the criminal defense bar all the time.  I sure as hell don't hate criminal defense lawyers.  I am just not comfortable with consensual activities ever being made crimes.  that is what both of you have failed entirely to understand.  My problem is not with cops.  Brodus I am very sorry that you got fucked over by the legal system.  But I will never consent to a search just because they will do it anyway.  That is like telling a girl to lay back and just enjoy being raped.  What you are saying is the least morally defensible position possible.  Twigz, do you realize this.  Brodus is saying then that because cops do these things anyway, legal or not, you just have to be a better criminal.  Would not the better alternative be that (1) This activity not be criminal in the first place; (2) Don't engage in criminal activity yourself.  I hate murderers, rapist, and yes anyone who drives under th einfluence of any narcotic or alcohol.  These things hurt other people.  I am just fundamentally uncomfortable with the government classifying consensual activity as being criminal, then giving law enforcement expanded powers to enforce laws that should not exist in the first place.   I fully understand how the world works gentleman.  I fully understand the need for police officers.  I fail to understand how I am safer because a heroin addict is in jail instead of treatment.  In case you say that this is not so, look at the mandatory sentencing under NY's recently reformed drug laws.  Yeah they have been reformed, but that does not give these people there lives back.  Sorry, to me the injustice of a person being in prison for having a drug addiction is much greater than that person being out and stealing my stereo.  These people need help, sometimes many opportunities.  Shit, it took me several tries to quit smoking and that was hard.  But putting people in jail.  Brodus, I am suprised at you.  You should no better than to argue the way you are.  Taking the position of just being a better, more cautious criminal is just utterly indefensible and morally bankrupt.  I don't agree with you on anything, but even I know you are too smart to honestly take that position.  So it is Ok to break laws, just don't get caught.  It is OK to send people to jail for the very same behavior that I am engaging in.  I only care if I get caught.  I love cops as long as they don't enforce the laws against me.  I think you agree with me more than you are willing to admit.  Remember, I don't hate cops.  move away from cops.  I don't like laws that take away freedoms.  It is invasive for a cop to search me and my car.  Why, have done nothing wrong.  I am not doing this to protect drug dealers.  I do this to protect the person who has done nothing wrong but is subjected to intrusive governmental laws that undercut what I believe to be basic human freedoms, and intrude upon the dignity of every free person.  I don't have anything to hide from the government.  That is why they have no business searching me.  Too often they do. I got pulled over for having a small crack in my windshield and the police officer wanted to know if he could search me car.  I said no.  He listened.  No problem.  Brodus, there is nothing wrong with asserting your rights, sorry it did not work out for you.  I would still defend you if you get busted.  Even better is I would do it for free.


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## Pirate! (Dec 30, 2004)

I will say that you all have very valid points. The Us vs. Them mentality only divides us all. I'm glad we have defense attorneys and police officers. The breakdown is in the system and our diminishing liberties. This has been the way off all societies that have come and gone, and it isn't going to change. I don't think this is an issue of who is the biggest intellectual or who has the most sound philosophy. We all have different values and beliefs concerning what is best for our country. My father--and best friend--is a socialist and I am completely opposite. You could even call me somewhat of a Libertarian. Despite ideological differences, we love each other. We would all do better to serve the people in the world who need our help, than to spew anger and disgust at those who have different opinions and values. People are diverse. It takes effort toward unity to keep us together and functioning as a healthy society. Just my opinion.


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## brodus (Dec 30, 2004)

Good Post!


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## brodus (Dec 30, 2004)

Law, I can drop the personal jabs, no sweat.  Just understand I have a lot of respect for the officers in my neighborhood, and I have had bad experiences with defense attorneys in the past.  I am very leery of any us vs. them logic, and I'm growing more and more angry at the gulf between practicality/utilitarianism and college-based theory. 

I'm not saying I think the police should be able to trample our rights at will.


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## law74 (Dec 31, 2004)

Brodus, I can drop it as well.  I have respect for many officers as well.  I don't think we are as far apart as you might think.  I just don't want anymore liberties being taken away from a government that seeks to protect us from ourselves.  I believe you agree with this.  You are responsible and rational.  You have determined for yourself, that you can manage prohormones safely even after the ban.  I just don't believe that you should be a criminal.  You are a smart guy.  Why should you go to jail b/c you want to have some more muscle on your body.  I don't believe the answer is to just be smarter about engaging in crime.  You should not have been labeled a criminal at all.  AS I said cops have the unfortunate role of having to enforce some of these ridiculuous laws.  They have an impossible job.  This is simply a war that they can not win.  In order for them to do their job of enforcing drug laws, civil liberties must be undercut because of the nature of drugs (easy to hide, easily disposable.)  I just don't feel that drugs are a big enough menance to sacrifice my liberties for.  I actually know a number of police officers who agree with me.  They agree with me that this problem could be better managed as a public health issue instead of as a law enforcement issue.  Cops should not be in the business of enforcing morality.  It would be like them arresting me for eating McDonalds (sure I know it is bad for me, but it is my body).  I do want cops to protect us from murderers and other violent criminals.  I just want to make their job easier by lessening their burden.  
Sorry if I come off confrontational.  This is something I do get worked up over.  I just hate seeing our rights gradually whitering away as the government seeks to protect us from the threat of the month.  There are always going to be threats, there will always be violence, there will always be crime.  I just don't want us rushing off in a moment of panic sacrificing the remaining liberities we do have.  Our liberities are almost unique in this world and I am just so tired of seeing them being handed over willfully to protect ourselves from some overstated threat.
Brodus, it has been interesting sparring with you.  Have a wonderful day.  Pirate, you finally brought some sanity to this discussion.  Stay safe, stay out of trouble.  If the cops ever do come looking for you just PM me. HAhahahahahaha.  Take care guys.


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## BigDyl (Dec 31, 2004)

law74 said:
			
		

> Brodus, I can drop it as well.  I have respect for many officers as well.  I don't think we are as far apart as you might think.  I just don't want anymore liberties being taken away from a government that seeks to protect us from ourselves.  I believe you agree with this.  You are responsible and rational.  You have determined for yourself, that you can manage prohormones safely even after the ban.  I just don't believe that you should be a criminal.  You are a smart guy.  Why should you go to jail b/c you want to have some more muscle on your body.  I don't believe the answer is to just be smarter about engaging in crime.  You should not have been labeled a criminal at all.  AS I said cops have the unfortunate role of having to enforce some of these ridiculuous laws.  They have an impossible job.  This is simply a war that they can not win.  In order for them to do their job of enforcing drug laws, civil liberties must be undercut because of the nature of drugs (easy to hide, easily disposable.)  I just don't feel that drugs are a big enough menance to sacrifice my liberties for.  I actually know a number of police officers who agree with me.  They agree with me that this problem could be better managed as a public health issue instead of as a law enforcement issue.  Cops should not be in the business of enforcing morality.  It would be like them arresting me for eating McDonalds (sure I know it is bad for me, but it is my body).  I do want cops to protect us from murderers and other violent criminals.  I just want to make their job easier by lessening their burden.
> Sorry if I come off confrontational.  This is something I do get worked up over.  I just hate seeing our rights gradually whitering away as the government seeks to protect us from the threat of the month.  There are always going to be threats, there will always be violence, there will always be crime.  I just don't want us rushing off in a moment of panic sacrificing the remaining liberities we do have.  Our liberities are almost unique in this world and I am just so tired of seeing them being handed over willfully to protect ourselves from some overstated threat.
> Brodus, it has been interesting sparring with you.  Have a wonderful day.  Pirate, you finally brought some sanity to this discussion.  Stay safe, stay out of trouble.  If the cops ever do come looking for you just PM me. HAhahahahahaha.  Take care guys.


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## Pirate! (Dec 31, 2004)

Group Hug?


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## iMan323 (Dec 31, 2004)

Yeah, group hug.  I have an idea .....pass that shit over here...*puff puff*


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## BigDyl (Dec 31, 2004)

Group hug.


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## Twigz (Dec 31, 2004)

I'll go with the group hug. Law in actuality I think we do agree, we just have different ways of stating it. Like I said at first, personally I don't care what you do to yourself. It just had better not cause problems for others.


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## law74 (Dec 31, 2004)

Happy New Year to All.


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