# Post post workout nutrition



## aad123 (Mar 3, 2011)

I have a question for you guys out there regarding post post workout nutrition.

As a result of family commitments I do not get to the gym until 8pm, I workout for 1 hour max as the gym closes at 9pm. Following my workout I have a post workout shake made up of 40g protein, 20g maltodextrin, 20g glucose and 5g creatine. Now here is my problem. I have read that the post post workout meal should have complex carbs, protein and fats, however I have also read that you should avoid carbs in your last meal. I don't want to go from 9pm to 7.30 with no food but I don't want to consume carbs which will be held as fat. I also don't want my hard work in the gym to be waste of time because I haven't taken adequate nutrition.
I currently have 3 boiled eggs (1 yoke only) and one piece of whole grain toast (115cal  6g-pro 12g-carb 4g-fat).

Can anyone offer some advise on how I should tackle this problem.

Many thanks.


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## ihateschoolmt (Mar 3, 2011)

You trying to gain weight or loose it? I don't know anything about cutting, but I'm bulking and I eat whatever the fuck I want before I go to bed haha.


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## Marat (Mar 3, 2011)

You're not going to gain fat unless you are in an overall caloric surplus.


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## BillHicksFan (Mar 3, 2011)

^ What Marat said is true and if you train late then you must eat you carbs late. There's no point burning glycogen during a training session and not replacing it.


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## jagbender (Mar 4, 2011)

Casein Protein @ night would give you a slower release  maybe mix whey and casein @ night.  what Bill Hicks said too  Carbs need to go back in your Muscle


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## aad123 (Mar 11, 2011)

Thanks for your replies. 
I am currently trying to bulk but as clean as possible so a little body fat is not a major problem, I am also looking into a ph cycle so the extra body fat should get shifted then.
I have now added 100g of oats to my final meal on training days to ensure my body gets the required carbs. I will see how this goes and adjust the quantity of oats when / if required. I will also order some casein when I get my next batch or protein.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.


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## Jodi (Mar 11, 2011)

I would suggest casein protein as well and I also wouldn't worry about adding a bit of complex carbs to your last meal either, you are bulking and your body needs it.


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## Built (Mar 11, 2011)

Just eat some solid food after your shake and go to bed.


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## aad123 (Mar 13, 2011)

How long after my shake should I wait to eat again. I currently leave it 1 hour. Is this too little or too long ????


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## Built (Mar 13, 2011)

It doesn't matter at all.


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## aad123 (Mar 14, 2011)

I thought you had to wait an hour so your body can absorb the nutrients from the shake quicker, as any fat (form a solid meal) will slow down the absorption. I may be wrong ?
Also what would you advise as a last meal in my position ? Eggs and oats is what I currently have. Is this ok or is there a better option ? Please bear in mind that I don't want to spend hours in the kitchen waking everyone up so quick and simple is the key.


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## Built (Mar 14, 2011)

If you trained utterly fasted, it might make a difference. For most of us, this isn't the case. Get in your macros for the day, feed your workouts and don't worry about the rest.


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## aad123 (Mar 15, 2011)

I have a slightly unrelated question. I am planning a ph cycle in about 6 weeks. I have received a lot of good advise from this forum but I was wondering if for the 6 weeks prior to the cycle should I concentrate on cutting my body fat % down so that when I am on the cycle my gains are better. My thinking is if I restrict carbs prior to the cycle then when I start I re-introduce the carbs my body will react better. This I believe is the case when a competitive body builder starts bulking after a show. Because their bodies are so hungry for nutrients they are absorbed far better and this is the best period of growth. I could be mistaken though
My current estimated body fat is 22%(+-1%). This was taken from a website based on height, waist and neck measurements and body weight. I'm sure its not that accurate but is better than nothing.


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## Built (Mar 15, 2011)

aad123 said:


> I have a slightly unrelated question. I am planning a ph cycle in about 6 weeks. I have received a lot of good advise from this forum but I was wondering if for the 6 weeks prior to the cycle should I concentrate on cutting my body fat % down so that when I am on the cycle my gains are better. My thinking is if I restrict carbs prior to the cycle then when I start I re-introduce the carbs my body will react better. This I believe is the case when a competitive body builder starts bulking after a show. Because their bodies are so hungry for nutrients they are absorbed far better and this is the best period of growth. I could be mistaken though
> My current estimated body fat is 22%(+-1%). This was taken from a website based on height, waist and neck measurements and body weight. I'm sure its not that accurate but is better than nothing.




Do get your bodyfat down before you begin the PH, but don't go directly from cutting to bulking or much of the weight you gain will be bodyfat. After dieting for weight loss - no matter which diet you use - your insulin sensitivity will decrease. PHs will increase insulin sensitivity, but not instantly. Diet down to around 10-12% bodyfat, hold it there for a few weeks, and then slowly transition into your bulk as your PHs kick in. 

How tall are you and what do you weigh btw? And where do you carry the majority of your bodyfat?


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## Swedeheart (Mar 16, 2011)

aad123 said:


> I have a question for you guys out there regarding post post workout nutrition.
> 
> As a result of family commitments I do not get to the gym until 8pm, I workout for 1 hour max as the gym closes at 9pm. Following my workout I have a post workout shake made up of 40g protein, 20g maltodextrin, 20g glucose and 5g creatine. Now here is my problem. I have read that the post post workout meal should have complex carbs, protein and fats, however I have also read that you should avoid carbs in your last meal. I don't want to go from 9pm to 7.30 with no food but I don't want to consume carbs which will be held as fat. I also don't want my hard work in the gym to be waste of time because I haven't taken adequate nutrition.
> I currently have 3 boiled eggs (1 yoke only) and one piece of whole grain toast (115cal  6g-pro 12g-carb 4g-fat).
> ...



It doesnt matter that your training at night. Your body doesnt know it just wants nutrients post workout. Do not skip meals pwo and go that long without food. 

Post workout your replenishing lost glycogen and refueling your body to start the repair and growth process. It doesnt matter if you train AM or PM eat your normal meal postworkout. There is no magical time that your body stores carbs as fat.


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## aad123 (Mar 17, 2011)

Built said:


> Do get your bodyfat down before you begin the PH, but don't go directly from cutting to bulking or much of the weight you gain will be bodyfat. After dieting for weight loss - no matter which diet you use - your insulin sensitivity will decrease. PHs will increase insulin sensitivity, but not instantly. Diet down to around 10-12% bodyfat, hold it there for a few weeks, and then slowly transition into your bulk as your PHs kick in.
> 
> How tall are you and what do you weigh btw? And where do you carry the majority of your bodyfat?



I'm 5ft8 and weigh 83kg (182lb). Most of my fat is around my waist and hips, with a little around my chest and legs. My upper abs are visible (if I breath in and crunch up a little). As for cutting I have never tried it with much success, I usually drop the weight but most of it seems to be muscle as my strength takes a real dip. I have read that dropping 250cal a week is about right. Would you agree. Any tips would be great.


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## Built (Mar 17, 2011)

Read homework 1 in my sig. It's all there.


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## aad123 (Mar 18, 2011)

Built said:


> Read homework 1 in my sig. It's all there.



Thanks a lot. I have had a quick look at your homework section and I will read it more closely this week end. I already have a spreadsheet with cal, pro, carb & fat of most of the foods I eat so I will add up the numbers.

Just one question, I noticed that in the initial section you said that at roughly 10% body fat your abs would be slightly visible, would this be when stood at rest or when tensing the abs ? If its at rest then my body fat estimate may be correct at 22% but if its tensed then I may be lower than I thought.

Thanks again for the help, I really appreciate it.


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## aad123 (Mar 20, 2011)

I tried the fitday site but couldn't get to grips with it, most of the foods I was looking for were not there and after about 2 hours of trying I gave up. The site is not exactly user friendly. I may have been doing something wrong ? 
Any way here are my average daily macros based on what I have managed to obtain from the info on the food packaging. The values are an average of monday to fridays meals. I have a log of all my typical foods on my pc so it was far easier to use that.

Kcal 2746
Carbs 215g  (35.6%)
Pro 216g     (35.8%) 
Fat 77g       (28.6%)

Break down of meals
07.30 k708 c71 p43 f14
10.30 k455 c45 p36 f12
13.00 k430 c45 p36 f25
15.30 k565 c17 p39 f17
18.00 k258 c24 p29 f3
22.00 k330 c13 p33 f6

My measurements are
Height 5ft 8 
Weight 13st 5lb -  187lb
Arms 15.5"
Chest 42.5"
Waist 35.5"
Thigh 25.5"
Calf 15.25"
Est body fat 22%

I hope this info will help


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## Built (Mar 20, 2011)

At 187, your diet is right where I would expect it to be for maintenance. To cut, drop your calories back by about 20% - about 500 or 600 calories a day less than you're eating now. Great info.  You might find it easier to diet on three or four meals than on six little ones. Keep your protein up; if you cut your carbs in half you'll accomplish enough of a deficit to start dropping.


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## ChrisSmithWebGuy (Mar 20, 2011)

Marat said:


> You're not going to gain fat unless you are in an overall caloric surplus.



very true!


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## aad123 (Mar 21, 2011)

Thanks Built,
Got to grips with fitday and have started a daily log. Values are similar to what I had worked out. I will create a modified diet and start to cut my carbs as advised. I will also look at meal timings. 
Do I count my post workout shake in my plans or does that cancel out the cals burned during the workout ?
Is there a better time to consume my carbs, I'm thinking b'fast, pre and post workout.


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## Built (Mar 21, 2011)

No calories get cancelled, and everything you eat is a calorie you've consumed. 

Breakfast is the worst time to eat carbs, if you're trying to modulate appetite. I stay low-carb and high-fat until dinner. 

Best time would be before and or after training.


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## aad123 (Mar 22, 2011)

Just worked out my macros for today.
cal 2242 
carb 176g  (still too high, i will work on that)
pro   213g
fat   73g

Thanks for the tip on carbs for b'fast, that should get me down
a little more. I keep fine tuning till I get to where I need to be.
Just off to get my eggs and oats post workout.

Thanks


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## aad123 (Mar 22, 2011)

oh one question, by dinner do you mean 12 noon or 5pm. This can be very confusing in the uk.


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## bigdaddymax (Mar 22, 2011)

if your working out late your metabolism will still be fired up at night and eat up the carbs in a hurry. At that time its probably best to have simple carbs so you can replenish your glycogen stores because if you have complex then go to sleep within an hour or two your body might store the slow digesting carbs. Just experiment with having simple carbs for several weeks then switch it up to see what is working


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## aad123 (Mar 23, 2011)

Today,s macros

cal 2075
carb 129 (going in the correct direction)
pro 225
fat 69     (a little low)

Felt a little hungry today about 1.5 hours after each meal so ended
up having 7 meals about 2 hours apart. Feeling positive about the diet
but realise it wont be easy after years of eating what I want.
I have noticed that my urine is smelling a little funny, like tuna or chicken difficult to pin point but definitely not normal?? any ideas.


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## DaBeast25 (Mar 23, 2011)

Built said:


> Breakfast is the worst time to eat carbs, if you're trying to modulate appetite. I stay low-carb and high-fat until dinner.
> 
> Best time would be before and or after training.


 
Just skimming through this... Built, what do you mean Breakfast is the worst time to eat carbs?


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## Built (Mar 23, 2011)

I didn't say it was the worst time to eat carbs; I said breakfast is the worst time to eat carbs, if you're trying to modulate appetite. I thought that was self-explanatory. 

Think of what's going to stick to you longer - a whey shake and eggs, or a bowl of oatmeal and eggwhites? Remember, we're talking about below-maintenance calories.


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## aad123 (Mar 24, 2011)

In your homework section you recommend compound movements so would I be better switching to a 3 day a week full body workout (Squats, deadlifts, bench, mill press, bent row and chins may be difficult to fit into 1 hour) or even a two workout split system (Workout 1. squats, bench, chins. Workout 2. deadlifts, mill press, bent row) alternating between the 2 workouts in rotation over 3 sessions a week.


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## Built (Mar 25, 2011)

Two day rotating split three or four days a week is perfect.


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## aad123 (Mar 25, 2011)

Today,s macros
cal   2082
pro   192g
fat    73g
carb  122

Been working hard on my diet and training this week so looking forward to sundays weigh in. Hopefully it will be good news. Do you think my reduction is too high, I have dropped about 700cals a day.


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## aad123 (Mar 26, 2011)

Just back from Rugby and my body is battered. Not sure about todays macros but I certainly had a 80mm intence cardio/weights session. Managed to resist the post match beer, which is very good for me.

"Two day rotating split three or four days a week is perfect." 


I will start my 2-day split tomorrow. Squats, bench, bent row & dips followed by 10 mins HIIT on the cross trainer. I was thinking of 4 sets (15/12/10/8) for each exercize increasing the weight each set. Should I bother training my arms or will the compound movements take care of them ? I dont want to over train whilst cutting.
I will also weigh and measure tomorrow evening.


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## Built (Mar 26, 2011)

No need to train arms while cutting.


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## aad123 (Mar 27, 2011)

Just completed my week one measurements.

Body fat    -0.5% (now 21.5%)

Waist       -0.5"
Chest       -0.5"
Hips (ass) -0.75"
Thigh        +1" 

Feeling positive about next week. After the first 3 days of the diet my body must have got used to it as the hunger was not as bad on days 4-7.


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## aad123 (Mar 28, 2011)

Today's macros
cal 2181
pro 172g
carb 165g
fat 93g

Been feeling ill all day, especially when I woke up. As a result missed breakfast and didn't eat a lot throughout the day. Hopefully this will pass so I can get back on track tomorrow. No workout till Wednesday as wife is working late so have the kids.
Told a work friend my progress and she was impressed with how well I'v done and couldn't believe I lost weight but was still eating all of the time.
Well of now to get my shake, nuts and eggs. Don't really fancy it but I'll force it down and hope it stays down.


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## aad123 (Apr 3, 2011)

Week 2
This weeks macros.
average
cal 225
pro   200g
carb 170g
fat   81g
My carbs still seem too high, this could be down to eating fruit. Should I cut down on my fruit, I only eat one apple and one banana a day but this equates to 47g of carbs.

This weeks measurements.
Waist -0.25"
Hips   -0.5"
Thigh no change
Chest -1.5"
Weight 182lb  -  BMI 27.67

Only managed to drop 0.1% body fat, which seems a little strange seeing as I lost 1.5" off my chest and 0.5" off my hips. I'm disappointed about my waist measurement though.

I have held of doing cardio so far, should I start doing some HIIT at the end of my weights or should I wait until my losses start to slow down ?


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## Built (Apr 3, 2011)

You don't know how much bodyfat you dropped in a week. You're down five pounds. Much of this will be water. BIA measurement devices underestimate your lean mass because it measures total body water. Drop glycogen and it thinks you got fatter.


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## joboco (Apr 3, 2011)

Built said:


> No need to train arms while cutting.


 
Why do you advice this??


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## ihateschoolmt (Apr 3, 2011)

Because it's good to keep workouts shorter and less intense while cutting. Your arms get plenty of work from heavy compound movements.


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## Built (Apr 3, 2011)

^ that. You're not going to bring anything up on a cut; if you can keep muscle-loss to a minimum, you're doing great.


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## joboco (Apr 4, 2011)

oki coci, thanks. Ill cut back a bit I'm still doing the same intense workout.


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## aad123 (Apr 4, 2011)

Built said:


> You don't know how much bodyfat you dropped in a week. You're down five pounds. Much of this will be water. BIA measurement devices underestimate your lean mass because it measures total body water. Drop glycogen and it thinks you got fatter.


 
I don't want to sound stupid but that went straignt over my head. What are BIA ??? I will google it also.


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## Built (Apr 4, 2011)

Bioelectrical Impedance Analysis. 

Body Impedance Analysis - Bioelectrical Impedance Analysis or BIA


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## aad123 (Apr 5, 2011)

Built said:


> Bioelectrical Impedance Analysis.
> 
> Body Impedance Analysis - Bioelectrical Impedance Analysis or BIA



Is there a reliable home method of determining body fat. I currently use an online site based on weight, waist, neck and wrist measurements. What methods do other readers use ???
If at first I will loose water when do I start to loose fat ?


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## ihateschoolmt (Apr 5, 2011)

Calipers are really cheap and an easy way to measure body fat. They aren't 100% accurate but they are good enough to measure progress. I expect you would loose about 5 pounds of water pretty fast. Anything done online is an awful way to measure body fat.


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## aad123 (Apr 10, 2011)

Week 3.

Diet has stayed the same as last week, so nothing to report.

Measurements
Waist   -0.75"
Hips     no change
Thigh   no change
Chest   -0.5"
Weight 180lb  -2lb

I am quite happy with this weeks progress, Iv started to see some definition in my thighs and upper abs. I no longer feel hungry, in fact some times I have to remind myself to eat. I did have a slice of Banana cake this week, but my 5yr old son cooked it for me so I couldn't say no. I was still below my daily calories so not a problem as long as I don,t make a habit of it. My urine still smells a bit funny but I'm not overly concerned with that.
Ready for next week and looking forward to dropping below the 35" waist bracket. I may have to buy a new belt as I'm running out of holes.


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## Built (Apr 10, 2011)

Hey - thanks for the update! 

Can you describe your meal plan - I'm always interested to read how people arrange things when they're working.


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## aad123 (Apr 11, 2011)

7.30
protein shake
1 whole egg 2 egg white
cod liver oil 2 caps
multi vit

10.00
option1
tuna salad with mayo (1 can of tune)
option 2
salmon salad with dressing (newmans original) 200g of salmon

1.00
boiled chicken fillet 100-120g
broccoli florets 4 -5
mixed nuts - aprox 5-6

3.30
protein shake
mixed nuts - aprox 10-12

6.00
this varies day to day.
Usually a family meal, curry with rice, pasta with meatballs, baked sweet potato with tuna. 
The normal type of meal but all home cooked no jars. Even on a diet I think its important
that the whole family sits down together for the evening meal and as my wife works in
eating disorders the food is usually healthy.

8.00 - 9.00 workout (4 days a week)

9.00
post workout shake.
25g protein
20g maltodextrin
20g glucose
5g creatine

on none workout days I still have the shake but replace the sugars with mixed nuts.
on workout days I have the nuts about 10.00.

10.30 bed.

I have taken some photos of my progress but I don't know how to get them up.
I will have a little fiddle later.


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## aad123 (Apr 11, 2011)

pics


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## aad123 (Apr 17, 2011)

Week 4

Chest +0.25"
Waist -0.25"
Hips   -0.25"
Thigh no change

Weight 177lb -3lb  (BMI 26.91)

Weight has dropped at a good rate this week. Target loss 2-4lb a week.
I can't quite understand why my chest has increased, could be a combination
of a three day a week full body workout and the increase in protein over the
last 4 weeks. Is it possible to build muscle whilst cutting ??? I wouldn't think so
but could the improvements in diet and nutrition be having a positive effect ?

Oh well I'll just keep on the diet and see what happens. I might start to introduce
a some cardio sessions on my none gym days. Just a light walk in the evening, 15 years
of rugby has not been kind on my knees so jogging is not really an option. 

I will post another progress report next week.
next week.


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## aad123 (Apr 24, 2011)

Week 5

Chest +0.25"
Waist -0.25"
Hips -0.25"
Thigh no change

Weight 175lb -3lb (BMI 26.61)

Not an ideal week due to the holidays but still managed to loose 2lb. I'm a little worried
about my chest as this is the second week it has increased by 0.25"
I'v started a slightly different training plan. I train 3 days a week, full body consisting of 5 exercises. 1 upper body push, 1 upper body pull, 1 lower body push, 1 shoulder and 1 exercise of my choice. All are compound movements except the last.
If I don't show an improvement next week I will start adding 10 mins HIIT at the end of each workout. I will also take a good look at my diet as it has slipped a little this week, dawn Easter eggs and hot cross buns.

See you next week.


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## aad123 (Apr 29, 2011)

I need a little advise.

I weighed myself today and I have only lost 1lb since Sunday. Do I need to further reduce my calories. If so where do I loose them from ?

I am still averaging 200g of protein, 80g of fat and 80g of carbs on non workout days and 110g of carbs on workout days. This works out to 2000 calories a day. As my carbs are low already where do I drop the cals ? 
I have started doing HIIT cardio after my workouts but as I'v only been twice this week (I will be going tomorrow) I'm sure that doesn't make a great deal of difference. I have read that cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach is good but with two small children and a wife that works early shifts that is not a real option. Is there another optimum time for cardio. Could I miss my pre-workout carbs and achieve the same type of result (bearing in mind that I do not have any carbs during the day) ?

Any advise would be greatly received.


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## Built (Apr 29, 2011)

A one-pound loss in a week is perfect. Keep going. 

(if you want to drop faster, you'll need to reduce calories)


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## joboco (Apr 30, 2011)

Keep up the good work. You will get there in the end if you stick at it.

Your doing better than me I'm up 2 pounds, damd bank holidays.


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## Liquid 2011 (Apr 30, 2011)

Nice job, bro!


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## aad123 (Apr 30, 2011)

I took a close look at my diet and I'm using milk in my protein shakes. 3 shakes a day adds up to 25g of carbs. If I start mixing them with water I could cut another 100+ cals with not too much effort.
The kids are at grandparents this weekend so I did some early morning cardio. 5 mins light jog around the block followed by 15 mins HIIT in the back garden. I wonder what the neighbours thought of me squat pressing half a paving slab at 8.30 in the morning.
Went to the gym in the afternoon for a leg workout. I did some walking lunges to finish and nearly fell down the stairs on the way out. Definitely adding them to my workout on a regular basis. Always nice to find a new exercise to the list. I will post my weekly stats tomorrow. Off now for some a casein shake (with water) and some nuts.


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## aad123 (May 1, 2011)

Week 6

Diet has been the same, however I will be cutting milk from my shakes next week.

Chest -0.50
Waist -0.25
Hips -0.50
Thigh -0.50
Weight 174lb (-1lb)

Although the weight has not dropped by a great deal the measurements are far better than expected. A good week, well on track.
Next goal is to drop waist below 34". Bring it on !!!!

Thanks for the replys to my last post. I was a little down at only 1lb but if you guys say thats OK then thats fine with me.


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## tommygunz (May 6, 2011)

I eat all the time, morning, day and night. Don't eat crap and you will be fine. Shakes are good for fast delivery but thats it. There is no substitute for whole food and besides there is not one casein shake that doesn't suck.


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## aad123 (May 7, 2011)

I have worked out my body fat to 19% using several web pages. This is a drop of 3% in 7 weeks. But based on my starting weight and body fat I have lost 5lb of lean mass.
187lb @ 22% fat = 146lb lean mass
174lb @ 19% fat = 141lb lean mass
So I have lost 13lb but 38% of that loss is lean mass. I know I can't get that back whilst cutting but how can I limit the muscle loss for the rest of my cut? I'm worried that when I get to 10 to 12% body fat the muscle loss will be huge and I will just end up looking skinny. My diet is as above.

I wish I didn't analyse these thing so much, but I do.


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## Built (May 7, 2011)

No, you didn't drop five pounds of lean mass. For one, you're dieting and training properly. For another, you didn't get dexa tested - averaging three shitty estimates doesn't give you one GOOD estimate, okay? I'm a statistician by education, this is my shit and I can assure you, there is no way you got a good read unless you got a dexa. Now the third point is that you're dieting and thus glycogen depleted. Glycogen shows up as muscle mass when you test, because it's in the muscle and it holds water. Carb up, and I guarantee you'll test out as leaner and more muscular on, say, a BIA/Tanita. 

So what do you do? Assume you've got 140 lbs of lean mass. Trust the process, don't diet too hard, and diet down to 156 lbs. Plan to lose no more than a pound a week. You'll look great, you'll see.


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## aad123 (May 8, 2011)

Week 7

Diat the same

Waist 34" -0.25
Hips 38.5" no  change
Thigh 24" +0.5
Chest 41.25" no change
Weight 173lb -1lb  _  I have lost 1 stone (14lb) go me !!!


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## aad123 (May 9, 2011)

Built said:


> No, you didn't drop five pounds of lean mass. For one, you're dieting and training properly. For another, you didn't get dexa tested - averaging three shitty estimates doesn't give you one GOOD estimate, okay? I'm a statistician by education, this is my shit and I can assure you, there is no way you got a good read unless you got a dexa. Now the third point is that you're dieting and thus glycogen depleted. Glycogen shows up as muscle mass when you test, because it's in the muscle and it holds water. Carb up, and I guarantee you'll test out as leaner and more muscular on, say, a BIA/Tanita.
> 
> So what do you do? Assume you've got 140 lbs of lean mass. Trust the process, don't diet too hard, and diet down to 156 lbs. Plan to lose no more than a pound a week. You'll look great, you'll see.



Thanks for the feedback. I am very happy with my results so far and I will carry on as directed. Your advice has been spot on so far so I trust your judgment. I'v read some of you other threads and you know your stuff. I have come further with your help than I would have on my own. Its good to know that there are people out there who give up their free time to advise people like me, who would other wise fail to get any real results. 

Many thanks to all who have posted replies.


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## Built (May 9, 2011)




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## aad123 (May 12, 2011)

I have a question on training whilst cutting.

I know that compound lifts are best as no muscle will be gained but should I train
to failure and use drop sets and forced reps etc or should I just work to a certain
rep range ?
I currently alternate one week heavy 6-8 reps and then one week light 10-12 reps
but I always do my last set to failure and some times have a spotter help me push a few extra reps. Is this a good idea or am I wasting my time ?


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## joboco (May 13, 2011)

At the moment I'm still lifting 6-8 heavy on all lifts. I know most people say dont train arms you wont gain, but i've put 1/4 in on my biceps. Although my weight is not dropping that much I seem to be getting harder if you know what I mean.


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## aad123 (May 13, 2011)

joboco said:


> At the moment I'm still lifting 6-8 heavy on all lifts. I know most people say dont train arms you wont gain, but i've put 1/4 in on my biceps. Although my weight is not dropping that much I seem to be getting harder if you know what I mean.


 
Are you training full body ? How many exersizes are you doing ? How many sets ? 
_I am currently doing full body 3 times a week but I find that as I get towards the end of my workout I don't have enough energy to give my final exersize the intenserty I want to. I'm thinking of going back to a half body split._

_Day 1._
_Upper body horizontal push / horizontal pull / lower body push._
_Day 2._
_Upper body vertical push / vertical pull / lower budy pull._

_I will alternate between the 2 workouts every other day. As I will only be doing 3 exersizes per workout I can go up to 3 sets per exersize. This will also cut down the length of my workouts and should reduce the risk of over training._


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## joboco (May 13, 2011)

At the moment I'm doing.

Monday
Dead lift @ 3 x 6-8
Barbell shrugs @ 3 x 6-8
Wide grip pull ups @ 3 x 6-8
Cable pull down wide grip @ 3 x 6-8
Bent over barbell rows @ 3 x 6-8
EZ bar curls @ 3 x 6-8
Alternate hammer curls @ 3 x 6-8

Wednesday
Flat bench press @ 3 x 6-8
Incline bench press @ 3 x 6-8
Flat bench dumbbell flyer's @ 3 x 6-8
Dumbbell press @ 3 x 6-8
Lateral raisers @ 3 x 6-8
Bent over rear raisers @ 3 x 6-8
Close grip bench press @ 3 x 6-8
Tricep pull down @ 3 x 6-8

Friday
Front squat @ 3 x 6-8
Leg extensions @ 3 x 6-8
Leg curls @ 3 x 6-8
Stiff leg dead lifts @ 3 x 6-8
Standing calf raisers @ 3 x 6-8

I only have a 1 minute break between sets,

Don't know if it is relevant or not,but I too was finding this a little hard. So I started taking a protein shake with 5g creatine about 15 minutes pre workout, followed by the same immediately post workout but including 40g of oats. 

The funny thing is my weights are slowly increasing, plus I have energy left over to do some sit ups post workout.


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## Built (May 13, 2011)

aad123 said:


> I have a question on training whilst cutting.
> 
> I know that compound lifts are best as no muscle will be gained but should I train
> to failure and use drop sets and forced reps etc or should I just work to a certain
> ...


Failure training is an occasional bulking trick; not useful for cutting. You'll just get too trashed. When you get very lean, it might be counterproductive. 


aad123 said:


> Are you training full body ? How many exersizes are you doing ? How many sets ?
> _I am currently doing full body 3 times a week but I find that as I get towards the end of my workout I don't have enough energy to give my final exersize the intenserty I want to. I'm thinking of going back to a half body split._
> 
> _Day 1._
> ...


This looks good. ^



joboco said:


> At the moment I'm doing.
> 
> Monday
> Dead lift @ 3 x 6-8
> ...


Yep, food rocks.


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## joboco (May 14, 2011)

Thanks for the reply Built I hope it will be of benefit to others that check this thread.

Bent over rear raisers. 

Should read, bent over rear delt raisers.

All other points taken on board.


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## aad123 (May 15, 2011)

Week 8.

Weight down by 1lb again this week but measurements are still a little disappointing.

Waist 34.5"  +0.5" (but I did have a large tuna salad about an hour ago).
Thigh 24"     no change
Chest 41.25  no change
Hips 39"       +0.5"

I have however had a good week end at the gym.

Sat
Chins 3 x 12 ( as many as poss on bar then onto lat pull down mc to finish the 12).
Mill press 3 x 12
Squats 3 x 10
Total time in gym 45 mins.

Sun
Inc bench 3 x 10
Bent row 3 x 12
Stiff leg dead lift 3 x 12
Total time in gym 50 mins, including talking training with another member who
is training for MMA. I could take him, yeah right, maybe if I snuck up on him whilst
he was benching.


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## SuperLift (May 15, 2011)

Agree with the others bro. You seem to have a pretty good understanding, now just make the changes happen bro, GL!


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## joboco (May 16, 2011)

Looks good at least your going in the right direction.


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## aad123 (May 16, 2011)

I need a little advise reguarding training.

For as long as I have been training I was under the impression that you had to lift untill failure in order to make progress. Like most gym users I was doing 3 sets to failure for every exersize. 
If this method is not what I should be doing then how should I be training. The answer to this could be the key to muscle grothand the reason I have not been making any real progress over the last few years.  I was just following what everyone else in the gym was doing but I didnt realy notice that they were not making any progress either.

Now I have my diet sorted out I need to improve my training.I know everyone is different but you guys have managed to build the bodies I am striving to achieve so any advice you have to offer will be greatfully received.


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## aad123 (May 17, 2011)

I need to vent my anger.

How can two skinny guys manage to use the squat rack for over 30 mins doing ez bar curls. Don't these people know that there are other gym members who might just want to use the rack for what it is meant to be used for "SQUATTING". Just because the support bars are at a nice height so they don't need to bend to pick the weight up doesn't mean that they can basically piss about whilst I have to weight for them to piss off, only to be informed that the gym will be closing in 10 mins.
I wonder if next time I do bench they will be using the bench to do sit ups or leg raises.
Being a true Brit I may just snap and write them a very stern letter. GRRRRRRRR!


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## primo33333 (May 18, 2011)

jagbender said:


> Casein Protein @ night would give you a slower release  maybe mix whey and casein @ night.  what Bill Hicks said too  Carbs need to go back in your Muscle



never heard of this protein, its like whey?


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## aad123 (May 18, 2011)

primo33333 said:


> never heard of this protein, its like whey?



Casein protein a slow release protein which is why its best take before bed to give you a steady release throughout the night. Whey protein is absorbed faster so is ideal post workout (mixed with maltodextrin).
If you do order some be advised that it mixes far thicker than whey so you need to double the amount of water/milk you add. The first time I mixed it I had to use a spoon to eat it. It's also a little more expensive than whey (in the uk) so some people mix it with whey.
If you google it you should find more info. 

Hope this helps.


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## joboco (May 18, 2011)

aad123 where you at in UK man.


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## aad123 (May 19, 2011)

joboco said:


> aad123 where you at in UK man.


England - Midlands


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## aad123 (May 19, 2011)

Just read "Should You Train to Complete Muscular Failure Each Set?" by Princes.

It was just what I was looking for. The science was a little in depth but I got the message.
The point about hard gainers training harder and to failure on every set sounds just like me.
I went to the gym this evening and didn't take any of my sets to failure and I felt rather good. Even managed 2 sets of hanging leg raises and 2 sets of woodcutters, it's normally all I can manage to get myself down the stairs without falling on my ass.
I will follow this protocol for the rest of my cut. It may take a little while to get into the feel of it but I will stick with it. I'v been going to failure for a long time and it hasn't worked out too well so time to try something different. Body building is all about learning what works for you, its a shame it took so long to learn that.


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## aad123 (May 22, 2011)

week 9

Another good week of solid training. Managed to get to the gym 4 times this week. Still sticking to the same half body split but have now completely cut all failure and forced reps.
If I don't think I can complete the next rep I don't even try. I have also drawn up a training log so I can track my progress and ensure I am continually adding either weight or reps each workout. I'v set my rep range between 7-10 so once I complete all 3 sets to 10 reps I will add 2.5kg (5lb) on the next workout. If I don't get all 3 sets to 10 I will keep the weight the same for the next workout and go for 3x10. I don't expect to gain a great deal whilst cutting but the log will keep me motivated.

This weeks measurements.
Waist 33.75" (-0.75") Finally below 34".
Hips 38.5" (-0.5")
Thigh 23.75" (-0.25")
Chest 42" (0.75")

Weight 170.5lb (-1.5lb)


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## joboco (May 23, 2011)

Well done mate, yet another drop in weight.


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## aad123 (May 23, 2011)

joboco said:


> Well done mate, yet another drop in weight.



Thanks.

I'v set my goal at about 11 stone (154lb) 10 to 12% body fat, so nearly there.

I'v been looking at some old photos from about 2 or 3 years ago and at the time I thought I looked ok, boy was I wrong. I have been taking body shots every 4 weeks since I started so on week 12 I will post another set showing progress so far. If you look every day you don't see any changes but over 4 weeks the difference is more apparent. 

Thanks for showing an interest.


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## MrSaturatedFat (May 23, 2011)

lift heavy - take a multi


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## joboco (May 23, 2011)

I just had a quick look back through your post and noticed you said you are going to start a PH cycle. 
Are you still planning to do this and if so what are you planning on running.


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## aad123 (May 24, 2011)

joboco said:


> I just had a quick look back through your post and noticed you said you are going to start a PH cycle.
> Are you still planning to do this and if so what are you planning on running.



I was going to go with p-mag as this seemed to be the best option for a first cycle. It was a choice between p-mag and h-drol but I felt that based on what I read p-mag would be a better of the two.
My feeling at the moment is that I will stick with the cutting diet and when I get to 10/12% bodt fat keep my weight there and maintain for a month or so. Following that I will start a clean bulk ( hopefully with a helping hand from Built, she has sorted me out up to now ) and if that goes well I may not need the ph.

There is still a lot to do before I get to that stage though.


----------



## joboco (May 24, 2011)

OK I get ye. personally I dont know much about p-mag but I will have a good google.
I'm not a fan of any PH's having done just one myself.
I dont like what they do to the old organs, and the gains are not solid more water/fat than anything else.
With hindsight I should have just gone for a Tes-e cycle. But we are all wiser looking back.

But like you say you have plenty of time to make up your mind on that one.

And I do agree if Built cant sort you out no one can she is the best in my opinion.


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## aad123 (May 25, 2011)

joboco said:


> OK I get ye. personally I dont know much about p-mag but I will have a good google.
> I'm not a fan of any PH's having done just one myself.
> I dont like what they do to the old organs, and the gains are not solid more water/fat than anything else.
> With hindsight I should have just gone for a Tes-e cycle. But we are all wiser looking back.
> ...


 
I did look into a test cycle as it would be far safer on my system and a better option than ph, but not being able to get them from a reliable supplier was the major problem. I have read too many stories of people getting ripped off over the net. I also understand that ph and aas are only the icing on the cake and if your diet is not bang on then they would be rather ineffective, so for now its diet / diet / diet. How much broccoli can one man eat???

If I can manage to get good gains naturally then that would be best. I don't think I will ever be a 15st beast but a little more muscularity would suit me fine. I just dont want to look like Mr Average if you get what I mean. Sure if I got to 13st at 10% bodyfat I would be over the moon but I dont think me genetics would allow that. But that sure wont stop me from trying.

What ph did you take and what were your gains like ? did you manage to keep them ?


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## suppRatings (May 26, 2011)

If you are cutting you will want to avoid carbs...but since its post workout, it is probably ok


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## joboco (May 27, 2011)

I think you are correct if you can make gains naturally its the best thing. The time will come for other things.

Personally I did a cycle of T-Bullets by extreme nutrition. 

This was against the advice of some very knowledgeable members of this forum. 

Well you live and hopefully learn. I did 1st week x 1 tab, 2nd week x 2 tabs, 3rd week only managed to get halfway through. Appetite disappeared, back pumps where unbearable and generally felt quite ill. 

Following this with very high cholesterol + bad blood count, shrunken nuts and loss of desire in the bedroom department, I decided overall it was a bad experience.

OK Maybe I could have prepared a little better for this cycle but personally I would not advice this product. 

I will be running a 500mg/week Test e cycle next as soon as my golfers elbow problem is sorted.


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## Built (May 27, 2011)

suppRatings said:


> If you are cutting you will want to avoid carbs...but since its post workout, it is probably ok



Why would he want to avoid carbs if he's cutting?


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## aad123 (May 27, 2011)

Built,  in a previous reply you advised doing pull ups and cable pull down shoulder width or narrower. What is the reason for this ?  I have recently added pull ups into my workout and I usually use a natural grip, about 8 to 10" wider than shoulder. Is a narrow grip a way of making the exersize more productive ?


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## base01 (May 27, 2011)

tks


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## Built (May 27, 2011)

aad123 said:


> Built,  in a previous reply you advised doing pull ups and cable pull down shoulder width or narrower. What is the reason for this ?  I have recently added pull ups into my workout and I usually use a natural grip, about 8 to 10" wider than shoulder. Is a narrow grip a way of making the exersize more productive ?


By natural grip, do you mean parallel?

I like a narrow parallel grip; doesn't stress my rotator cuff and I feel it more in my lats. Wide grip triangulates the force; you get less stress on the lat and more on the RC.


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## aad123 (May 28, 2011)

Built said:


> By natural grip, do you mean parallel?
> 
> I like a narrow parallel grip; doesn't stress my rotator cuff and I feel it more in my lats. Wide grip triangulates the force; you get less stress on the lat and more on the RC.


 
My arms are roughly parallel, maybe a little less. The problem I have is that I don't realy feel the back working, this is made worse by the fact I can only do a low number of reps. I have been doing 3x5 but Im hoping as I get stronger I will increase the reps and start to feel the movement more.


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## aad123 (May 29, 2011)

Week 10

Another week of solid training and diet.

Weight 169lb -1.5 (Only 9lb to go to my target of 160lb)
Waist 33" -0.75  (Taken first thing in the morning)
Hips 38.5 (no change)
Thigh 23.75 (no change)
Chest 41.5 (-0.5)


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## aad123 (Jun 2, 2011)

I have started adding creatine and l-glutamine to my post workout shake. Is there any benefit in doing this. I have read that the l-glutamine will reduce the possibility of muscle break down and aid recovery whilst creatine has many benifits. I plan to take both with my first and last meals on non training days and with my first meal and post workout on training days. Is this a good idea or am I wasting my time and money ? Are the times highlighted the best times to take them ? I will not be loading creatine as I know I will forget to take it half the time.


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## aad123 (Jun 5, 2011)

Week 11.

Its been a long old journey and there is still a way to go. Just need to stay focused and trust in what I am doing. Diet and training went well this week although I did feel a little fat later in the week ( purely mental ).

This week measurements.

Weight 168lb  -1lb
Waist 32.5     -0.5"
Hips 38          -0.5"
Chest 41.25   -0.25"
Thigh 23.5     -0.25"

Need to keep everything tight next week as I should be posting some photos at the 12 week stage.


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## aad123 (Jun 12, 2011)

week 12

Training went well, changed reps to 5x5 this week for a bit of variety. 
Diet was spot on until sat when I let my self go a little, after 12 weeks
I needed a break.

Took some photos this evening to show progress so far. Very happy with
the results so far.


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## joboco (Jun 13, 2011)

Whatever your doing its definitely working. I can see the difference more cut muscle starting to show through. 
Keep up the good work mate.


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## strength is pain (Jun 13, 2011)

what are you cutting for? a cycle or just because you want to lose fat?
high fats, proteins and low carbs is what you should be aiming for. 

as for training id try go 4 or 5 days a week ensuring you are both squatting and deadlifting as these are the most anabolic movements for your body, you need to make sure your doing as many compound movements as possible and train to failure aswell as a higher protein intake to minimise muscle catabolism as a low carb diet will influence fat lose but also muscle loss.
no matter what you do if your on a low carb you will lose muscle(unless you are running a compound) so by training hard and eating as much protein as possible will minimise this. i reccomend carbs in the morn for breaky, pre and post workout but no more than 100g a day


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## Built (Jun 13, 2011)

strength is pain said:


> what are you cutting for? a cycle or just because you want to lose fat?
> high fats, proteins and low carbs is what you should be aiming for.


For comfort, I'd tend to agree with you - but there are other ways to cut. Some do fine on higher-carb cuts. 


> as for training id try go 4 or 5 days a week


This might be too much. Three, or at most four workouts per week should be ample. 


> ensuring you are both squatting and deadlifting


This part's good. 


> as these are the most anabolic movements for your body, you need to make sure your doing as many compound movements as possible and train to failure


I wouldn't recommend failure-training on a cut. It might not be such a great idea to do deadlifts to failure, come to think of it. 


> aswell as a higher protein intake to minimise muscle catabolism as a low carb diet will influence fat lose but also muscle loss.
> no matter what you do if your on a low carb you will lose muscle(unless you are running a compound) so by training hard and eating as much protein as possible will minimise this.


Most will lose muscle while cutting on any diet. I wouldn't say a low carb diet is any worse for this than a higher-carb diet. 


> i reccomend carbs in the morn for breaky, pre and post workout but no more than 100g a day


Unless you train in the AM, why for breakfast? Why not stay nice and low until around the time you intend to train?


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## aad123 (Jun 13, 2011)

strength is pain said:


> what are you cutting for? a cycle or just because you want to lose fat?
> high fats, proteins and low carbs is what you should be aiming for.
> 
> as for training id try go 4 or 5 days a week ensuring you are both squatting and deadlifting as these are the most anabolic movements for your body, you need to make sure your doing as many compound movements as possible and train to failure aswell as a higher protein intake to minimise muscle catabolism as a low carb diet will influence fat lose but also muscle loss.
> no matter what you do if your on a low carb you will lose muscle(unless you are running a compound) so by training hard and eating as much protein as possible will minimise this. i reccomend carbs in the morn for breaky, pre and post workout but no more than 100g a day



I want to get down to 10-12% body fat then I plan to run a 6 week cycle
of p-mag, complete with all relevant cycle assist and pct.

As for training if I had my way I would only do squats and deadlifts.
I train every other day (when possible) and most of my lifts are compound.

Workout 1
Squat, Flat bench, T-bar row and if I have the energy 2 sets of tri ext with rope.

Workout 2
Deadlifts, Chins, Mill press and 2 sets of curls if I feel like it.

I alternate between 3x10 for 3 workouts then 5x5 for 1 workout. The tri and bi sets are always 2x12. I do feel that some exercises are better suited to the
10 rep range and other to the 5 rep range so that is why I change thing around on a 4 workout cycle. I don't take my sets to failure but to the point where I know I wouldn't be able to complete the next rep.

My protein is currently at around 200g a day, fat 80g and carbs 80 to 120g depending on if I'm training or not.

Thats just about it.

Oh, one other thing.
My weight loss has slowed down to 0.5lb this week. Do I need to adjust my
cals or just stick to my current diet until I'm no longer loosing ? Also could the creatine have anything to do with the reduced weight loss. I'v only been taking it for a week.


----------



## strength is pain (Jun 14, 2011)

mate you seem to be doing the right thing, personally i would up the anty when it comes to training. 4days a week at least and 5 days if you can. working harder is crutial especially when you are dieting, aswell as lots of protein and still having carbs. carbs are the building blocks to muscle growth so without carbs you will lose muscle. when you diet you will lose muscle also but by timing your meals appropriately especially with carb consumption is crutial. carbs in the morning, before and after workout. as for creatine you will not reduce weight lose, personally for the money, creatine is not worth the hassle. eat the right foods and train hard, also make sure your sleeping at least 8 hours each night. failure or close too is awesome, you want your muscles to grow than be willing to put in the training.


----------



## aad123 (Jun 14, 2011)

strength is pain said:


> mate you seem to be doing the right thing, personally i would up the anty when it comes to training. 4days a week at least and 5 days if you can. working harder is crutial especially when you are dieting, aswell as lots of protein and still having carbs. carbs are the building blocks to muscle growth so without carbs you will lose muscle. when you diet you will lose muscle also but by timing your meals appropriately especially with carb consumption is crutial. carbs in the morning, before and after workout. as for creatine you will not reduce weight lose, personally for the money, creatine is not worth the hassle. eat the right foods and train hard, also make sure your sleeping at least 8 hours each night. failure or close too is awesome, you want your muscles to grow than be willing to put in the training.



Mon to friday my first 4 meals are carb free and I have all my carbs pre and post workout. I hit the gym between 7.30 and 8 and train for aprox 45 mins. On the weekend I do have carbs with my b'fast as I train in the morning.
My basic diet is,

meal 1-  7.30am
eggs and a protein shake

meal 2 - 10.30
chicken fillet, nuts and broccoli

meal 3 - 1.00pm
salmon fillet and green beans or tuna salad with mayo

meal 4 - 3.30pm
protein snake and nuts. If I'm super hungry I have an emergency apple.

meal 5 5.30pm
whatever the wife cooks if she's home or some paste/rice/potato meat and veg mix if I'm cooking.

meal 6 - 9.00pm
same as meal 4. If Im training I wont have the nuts but will add 40g maltodextrin.

As for training I can only train when my wife is not working because she works shifts and we have 2 kids. I always manage 3 sessions, some times 4 on a good week.
I'v got the creatine now so I will use it up. I also brought some l-glutamin which I add to my post workout shake. I brought some new protein powder
last week but its giving me really bad lower stomach pains if I take it alone.
I thought it was the l-glutamine so I stopped taking that but the pain continued.
Its fine to start but after about an hour the pain kicks in. I wouldn't be
too bothered but I'v got 5kg (11lb) of the stuff. I think I might start taking
it with my other meals and see if that works.


----------



## Built (Jun 14, 2011)

strength is pain said:


> mate you seem to be doing the right thing, personally i would up the anty when it comes to training. 4days a week at least and 5 days if you can. working harder is crutial especially when you are dieting,


Why train so many days while cutting?


strength is pain said:


> aswell as lots of protein and still having carbs. carbs are the building blocks to muscle growth so without carbs you will lose muscle. when you diet you will lose muscle also but by timing your meals appropriately especially with carb consumption is crutial. carbs in the morning, before and after workout.


Again, why in the AM?


strength is pain said:


> as for creatine you will not reduce weight lose


?


strength is pain said:


> , personally for the money, creatine is not worth the hassle. eat the right foods and train hard, also make sure your sleeping at least 8 hours each night. failure or close too is awesome, you want your muscles to grow than be willing to put in the training.


You figure they're going to grow in a deficit? 


aad123 said:


> Mon to friday my first 4 meals are carb free and I have all my carbs pre and post workout.


That's how I'd do it, too. 


aad123 said:


> I hit the gym between 7.30 and 8 and train for aprox 45 mins. On the weekend I do have carbs with my b'fast as I train in the morning.





aad123 said:


> My basic diet is,
> 
> meal 1-  7.30am
> eggs and a protein shake
> ...


Try eating less frequently. You may find you feel fuller with larger meals. I've been doing three or at most four meals. 


aad123 said:


> As for training I can only train when my wife is not working because she works shifts and we have 2 kids. I always manage 3 sessions, some times 4 on a good week.


Perfect. 


aad123 said:


> I'v got the creatine now so I will use it up.


I keep creatine going throughout the cut. 


aad123 said:


> I also brought some l-glutamin


No need. Finish it, but don't bother to buy more. 


aad123 said:


> which I add to my post workout shake. I brought some new protein powder
> last week but its giving me really bad lower stomach pains if I take it alone.
> I thought it was the l-glutamine so I stopped taking that but the pain continued.
> Its fine to start but after about an hour the pain kicks in. I wouldn't be
> ...



Try taking it as a "preload" to your meal. It may have a lot of leucine in it, which is great for insulin release but can leave you feeling empty an hour later if you don't eat it with solid food, at least in my personal experience.


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## aad123 (Jun 15, 2011)

Try eating less frequently. You may find you feel fuller with larger meals. I've been doing three or at most four meals.

The meal times 10.30, 1.00 and 3.30 are set by my work break times, so I have grown
used to eating at those times. I have tried missing the 3.30 snack but I find I get extremely hungry if I don't have something between lunch at 1.00 and tea at 5.30/6.00 and I end up getting in from work at 5.00 and grabbing anything I can, which could end up being junk. So the 3.30 snack is kind of a safety net to prevent me from snacking on any old s**t. As the diet has progresses I have found that I hardly get hungry at all.

I will give the shake before a meal a try and next time I purchase my protein I will go for whey isolate as I have read this may reduce the problem. Just goes to show that in life you get what you pay for. Cheap protein = stomach cramps. Lesson learned!

Is it normal for the weight loss to slow down as you get closer to you goal or could this just be a minor blip ?


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## Built (Jun 15, 2011)

I didn't mean "don't eat as much food" - I'm suggesting you eat the same amount of food, but in fewer meals. You, however, know your body. 

Your maintenance has dropped, so yes, weight loss slows as the cut progresses. You'll need to deepen the deficit to continue to lose at the same rate.


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## aad123 (Jun 16, 2011)

If I do drop my calories I'm not sure where to loose them from. I don't want to lower my protein or fats but as I only have 100g of cards a day I don't want to go too much lower. 
Is it time to start doing some dreaded cardio ? If so is 10 to 15 mins straight after my weights worth while or should I do it on my days off. After weights is my preferred option as jogging on the roads really takes it out on my knees. Will cardio after weights lead to over training? Is there a better option? Please advise as I don't know what to do for the best.


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## Built (Jun 17, 2011)

At 170 lbs, 200g protein, 80g fat and 100g carbs is kinda low. I'd take a diet break, slowly creeping calories up to maintenance while you ramp up your training. After a few weeks to a month, resume your cut.


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## aad123 (Jun 17, 2011)

Built said:


> At 170 lbs, 200g protein, 80g fat and 100g carbs is kinda low. I'd take a diet break, slowly creeping calories up to maintenance while you ramp up your training. After a few weeks to a month, resume your cut.


 
I will keep my protein and fats roughly the same and increase my carbs. Calories will go up by 200 a day for the first week, 400 the second and 600 the third and fourth week. As for training should I go onto a 3 day split or keep things the same? If I do go for the split I will build my training around the same compound movements as I am currently using.
My split would look something like this.
Day 1, Legs and abs.
Day 2, Back and bi
Day 3, Shoulders and Chest (tri's will be worked as part of the pressing movements).
I do like training shoulders and back together but this doesnt allow my tricepts enough time to recover.

I'll start my mini-bulk on Monday. I was thinking I would keep meal 1 unchange add a little brown rice with meals 2 and 3 and keep 4,5,&6 the same.

How does all of that sound, any areas I could improve (im sure there are).


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## aad123 (Jun 19, 2011)

Week 13.
As advised I will take a 4 week break from the diet. I will increase to hopefully 4 gym sessions a week, on either a 3 or 4 day split. Over the last 13 weeks I have made far better progress than I would have thought possible.
Key changes,
Waist down 4.75"
Hips down   3.75"
Chest down 1.50"
Weight down 20lb
I just hope over the next 4 weeks I don't put on too much fat and gain a few pounds of muscle.


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## Built (Jun 19, 2011)

aad123 said:


> Week 13.
> As advised I will take a 4 week break from the diet. I will increase to hopefully 4 gym sessions a week, on either a 3 or 4 day split. Over the last 13 weeks *I have made far better progress than I would have thought possible.*


NICE!!!


aad123 said:


> Key changes,
> Waist down 4.75"
> Hips down   3.75"
> Chest down 1.50"
> ...


You'll blow up slightly in the first week - it's extra water, extra glycogen and extra poo - plus a bit of bodyfat. Don't panic. It won't persist beyond that first week. You may gain five pounds in a week, but you won't gain five pounds the next week - and as soon as you resume dieting, the water/bloat/glycogen weight will drop off within a week or two. 

Enjoy your break.


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## aad123 (Jun 20, 2011)

Built said:


> NICE!!!
> 
> You'll blow up slightly in the first week - it's extra water, extra glycogen and extra poo - plus a bit of bodyfat. Don't panic. It won't persist beyond that first week. You may gain five pounds in a week, but you won't gain five pounds the next week - and as soon as you resume dieting, the water/bloat/glycogen weight will drop off within a week or two.
> 
> Enjoy your break.



I added 100g of long grain brown rice to meal 2 and 100g of sweet potato to meal 3 all other meals were the same as on the cut. I trained legs yesterday and I can hardly bend to put my shoes on today.
I do have a bad case of wind (or gas) and my wife has informed me that I can sleep in the spare room if it continues. Is this normal as carbs increase? I did have occasional wind prior to the cut but during the diet it completely went away. Any ideas, it could save my marriage, only joking but they do stink!!!


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## aad123 (Jun 28, 2011)

I'm into my second week of maintenance and so far I have gained 2.5lb and 0.75" around my waist. Training is going very well on a 4 day split. Feels like my muscles are fuller and I'm enjoying the aditional carbs and energy.


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## aad123 (Jul 2, 2011)

I have just read a thread and it says that calcium is important to people who consume a high protein diet. I have never heard this before, could anyone explain why this true. What effect will increased calcium have ??


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## strength is pain (Jul 2, 2011)

aad123 said:


> In your homework section you recommend compound movements so would I be better switching to a 3 day a week full body workout (Squats, deadlifts, bench, mill press, bent row and chins may be difficult to fit into 1 hour) or even a two workout split system (Workout 1. squats, bench, chins. Workout 2. deadlifts, mill press, bent row) alternating between the 2 workouts in rotation over 3 sessions a week.



Fuck man that's a shit workout, for a women that's ok but you being a male won't grow much on that. I'd do the following:

(monday) Day1:chest/triceps(5exercises on chest, 4 on triceps)(warmup w rear delts and rotator cuff)

(Tuesday) Day2:legs/calfs(5exercises on legs, 4 on calfs)(warmup rotator cuffs)

(wednesday) Day3:rest day

(Thursday) Day4:shoulders/traps/abs(5 shoulders, 2 traps, 5 abs)(warm up rotator cuffs)

(Friday) back, biceps, calfs (deadlifts plus 4 other back exercises, 3 on biceps, 3 on calfs)(warmup ratator cuffs)

That's a workout and you'll grow like a Mofo if u push!


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## Built (Jul 2, 2011)

aad123 said:


> I have just read a thread and it says that calcium is important to people who consume a high protein diet. I have never heard this before, could anyone explain why this true. What effect will increased calcium have ??


Calcium excretion increases with protein consumption. If you get enough calcium, you won't lose your bones. 


strength is pain said:


> Fuck man that's a shit workout, for a women that's ok but you being a male won't grow much on that.


Women grow better than men on the same workout? 


strength is pain said:


> I'd do the following:
> 
> (monday) Day1:chest/triceps(5exercises on chest, 4 on triceps)(warmup w rear delts and rotator cuff)
> 
> ...


Corrected.


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## strength is pain (Jul 3, 2011)

Built said:


> Calcium excretion increases with protein consumption. If you get enough calcium, you won't lose your bones.
> 
> Women grow better than men on the same workout?
> 
> Corrected.



why you gotta be such a no it all, just admitt for once that your not always right, i bet when you were my age your results, determonation and knowledge were not even half to mine. Some of your theorys are bullshit and im not the only one who belives this, for the eat part, that is obvious so stop multi correcting everything as you do not no everything!!


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## strength is pain (Jul 3, 2011)

Built said:


> Calcium excretion increases with protein consumption. If you get enough calcium, you won't lose your bones.
> 
> Women grow better than men on the same workout?
> 
> Corrected.



and your whole women grow better than men bullshit, mabye to begin with yes but if this guy wants to be a guy than he will need to train alot harder than that, your trying to tell me you get a women and a man both the same body weight and put them on the same program that the women will grow stronger and bigger than the man? 

please say your not saying that cos f**k that is bullsh*t


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## yeksetm (Jul 3, 2011)

strength is pain said:


> why you gotta be such a no it all, just admitt for once that your not always right, i bet when you were my age your results, determonation and knowledge were not even half to mine. Some of your theorys are bullshit and im not the only one who belives this, for the eat part, that is obvious so stop multi correcting everything as you do not no everything!!




*I feel a battle brewing!!!* I think your about to get


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## strength is pain (Jul 3, 2011)

Built said:


> Calcium excretion increases with protein consumption. If you get enough calcium, you won't lose your bones.
> 
> Women grow better than men on the same workout?
> 
> Corrected.





yeksetm said:


> *I feel a battle brewing!!!* I think your about to get



yer i probly will but whatever


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## aad123 (Jul 3, 2011)

I think everyone needs to just relax a little. The 2 day split was only for the cutting phase and not for ever. The idea of only doing compound movements was a way of reducing muscle loss and prevent over training whilst on reduced calories._ I know that I wont add any muscle during my cutting chase so there is no point trying._
_D_uring my 4 week break for dieting I am on a 4 day split simular to what you advided. Day 1 legs. 2 chest & tri. 3 back & b.i 4 shoulders and traps. When I have reached my target of 12% body fat I will be resuming a simular 4 day training system and do intend to buils more muscle and I WILL BE EATING TO GROW but for now I am happy with where I am.
During my 13 week cut I have received some very helpful advise from Built and others and I wouldn't have made it this far without a little help. As for the question of who grows faster women or men you guys can fight that one out but after 10 years of marrage I know who I would back.


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## aad123 (Jul 17, 2011)

Back on the diet Monday, whilst I'v been off the diet I have gained 3lb and a little body fat but my chest, shoulders and traps have filled out a little and my arms have grown by 3/4", which is nice. I'm looking forward to getting down to my target weight of 158lb and having been through a properly planned cut I now know what to expect. BRING IT ON !!!!


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## stfuandliftbtch (Jul 22, 2011)

more carbs pw shake.. after your carbs, protein, etc.(no fat!!) wait 1hr...eat a meal containing complex carbs, fat, protein. You should be done with ALL of this by 10:15/10:30 by the looks of your schedule. If you are staying up a few hours later, down some casein with milk, w/ healthy fat...either; organic PB/almond butter, almonds, olive oil, etc.(I prefer almond butter in the protein shake - costco, big jug of A. butter about $7)

If your have to go to sleep around 10..then down the casein etc. when you wake up in the night to go pee..


Chocolate Casein Pudding: 6-8 ounces of milk, almond/peanut butter, 1-1.5 scoops protein...If its not thick enough, add more casein of almond/pb.. It taste so fucking good!!!


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## LAM (Jul 23, 2011)

aad123 said:


> I have just read a thread and it says that calcium is important to people who consume a high protein diet. I have never heard this before, could anyone explain why this true. What effect will increased calcium have ??



negative effects of a "high protein" diet are only seen in the sedentary individual.  of the 3 macro groups proteins have the greatest effect on the acid-base metabolism which can have a negative effect on bone mineral density.  the body of the athlete operates at a much higher level of efficiency than that of the sedentary individual so their bodies have higher energy and nutrient demands along with increased ability to utilize those nutrients.

there is a good 60 years of real-world results in terms of resistance training and high protein diets.  I can not name one old school body builder that has osteoporosis.


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## aad123 (Jul 23, 2011)

stfuandliftbtch said:


> more carbs pw shake.. after your carbs, protein, etc.(no fat!!) wait 1hr...eat a meal containing complex carbs, fat, protein. You should be done with ALL of this by 10:15/10:30 by the looks of your schedule. If you are staying up a few hours later, down some casein with milk, w/ healthy fat...either; organic PB/almond butter, almonds, olive oil, etc.(I prefer almond butter in the protein shake - costco, big jug of A. butter about $7)
> 
> If your have to go to sleep around 10..then down the casein etc. when you wake up in the night to go pee..
> 
> ...


 
I have increased my pw carbs/protein ratio to 80g carbs 40g protein. I drink this straight after my last set of weights. I then drive home, shower and then I have 125g of cottage cheese, around 10 nuts (almonds, cashews and brazil mixed) and a piece of fruit, banana, apple or orange. This seems to work well for me. Would I be better changing the fruit for oats ?


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## stfuandliftbtch (Jul 23, 2011)

aad123 said:


> I have increased my pw carbs/protein ratio to 80g carbs 40g protein. I drink this straight after my last set of weights. I then drive home, shower and then I have 125g of cottage cheese, around 10 nuts (almonds, cashews and brazil mixed) and a piece of fruit, banana, apple or orange. This seems to work well for me. Would I be better changing the fruit for oats ?





eat the fruit with your post workout drink..a banana would be best.


According to the link below, 125g of cottage cheese is only 15 grams of protein give or take depending on what brand. 10 nuts, roughly 5 grams or protein. 

    -20 grams of protein as your post workout meal!!! And NO complex carbs!       This is a recipe for disaster. Maybe you don't eat any carbs because you're going to sleep. But don't listen to all the BS anti-carb H8tr's who don't believe in carbs past like 7/8pm or whatever bullshit. If your tripping, down at LEAST 50 complex carbs. Thats only 1 cup of oats...Eat them raw. put them in some milk, let them absorb the milk for a few minutes. They are easier to eat, taste better, and when you decide to bulk(if ever) are way easier to consume larger amounts.  


Calories in Fat Free Cottage Cheese (125g) (1/2 Cup) - Nutrition Facts & Other Nutritional Information | LIVESTRONG.COM


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## aad123 (Jul 24, 2011)

stfuandliftbtch said:


> eat the fruit with your post workout drink..a banana would be best.
> 
> 
> According to the link below, 125g of cottage cheese is only 15 grams of protein give or take depending on what brand. 10 nuts, roughly 5 grams or protein.
> ...


 
I thought the shake was the important part of the recovery cycle ? Is the shake ok ?
I will look into adding a little more protein and complex carbs to my post post workout meal. If I have the complete 250g tub of cottage cheese we are up to 30g of protein and with the oats I get an extra amount of protein and 50g of complex carbs (are we getting some where near).
I'm just a little worried about adding too many carbs during my cutting phase but on the other hand I dont want to waist my time in the gym with poor nutrition. If I keep my carbs lower on non workout days and follow the advise above I will be kind of carb cycling. Getting the carbs when they are needes and loosing them when they are not.
On my non workout days my final meal is cottage cheese, a whey shake and a handfull of nuts, some times I will add blue berries or strawberries into the cottage cheese (if the kids havent eaten them all).
This bodybuilding stuff is far more complicted than I ever thought.
The weight lifting part is simple the diet is where the real hard work comes in. You need to be dedicated 100% of the time 24/7.


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## njc (Jul 24, 2011)

strength is pain said:


> why you gotta be such a no it all, just admitt for once that your not always right, i bet when you were my age your results, determonation and knowledge were not even half to mine. Some of your theorys are bullshit and im not the only one who belives this, for the eat part, that is obvious so stop multi correcting everything as you do not no everything!!


 

She was doing the responsible thing by pointing out the flaws in your advice so that the OP doesnt follow it.

You need to tone down the attitude a bit.


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## Built (Jul 24, 2011)

strength is pain said:


> and your whole women grow better than men bullshit, mabye to begin with yes but if this guy wants to be a guy than he will need to train alot harder than that, your trying to tell me you get a women and a man both the same body weight and put them on the same program that the women will grow stronger and bigger than the man?
> 
> please say your not saying that cos f**k that is bullsh*t


I didn't say that. You appeared to though, here:


strength is pain said:


> Fuck man that's a shit workout, for a women that's ok but you being a male won't grow much on that.


I was incredulous that you would suggest a workout that might be sufficient to induce growth in a woman would fail to do so for a man. Hence my comment.


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## Built (Jul 24, 2011)

LAM said:


> negative effects of a "high protein" diet are only seen in the sedentary individual.



LAM, I'd argue you won't see them here, either. Sedentary individuals who eat higher protein diets have less trouble with obesity. I don't know what other negative effects you might be mentioning so I'll ask for clarification before I proceed. 


stfuandliftbtch said:


> eat the fruit with your post workout drink..a banana would be best.


Not arguing - just asking. Why would you recommend fruit for post workout? I mean, as opposed to a carb that provides only glucose and glucose polymers. What advantage would he have in consuming a carb containing fructose in the post-workout period? 

(I can see eating it pre-workout btw, to induce a "fed state" by replenishing a little liver glycogen. The potassium might come in handy, too.)


stfuandliftbtch said:


> According to the link below, 125g of cottage cheese is only 15 grams of protein give or take depending on what brand. 10 nuts, roughly 5 grams or protein.
> 
> -20 grams of protein as your post workout meal!!! And NO complex carbs!       This is a recipe for disaster.


How come? Again, not arguing, just asking. Why, while cutting, do you feel complex carbs (read: starch) are necessary in the post-workout window?


stfuandliftbtch said:


> Maybe you don't eat any carbs because you're going to sleep.


Interestingly, this is exactly the time when I DO eat my carbs when I'm cutting. Why would you suggest otherwise? 


stfuandliftbtch said:


> But don't listen to all the BS anti-carb H8tr's who don't believe in carbs past like 7/8pm or whatever bullshit.


Now here, you and I are in agreement. It's utter nonsense. 


stfuandliftbtch said:


> If your tripping, down at LEAST 50 complex carbs. Thats only 1 cup of oats...Eat them raw. put them in some milk, let them absorb the milk for a few minutes. They are easier to eat, taste better, and when you decide to bulk(if ever) are way easier to consume larger amounts.
> 
> 
> Calories in Fat Free Cottage Cheese (125g) (1/2 Cup) - Nutrition Facts & Other Nutritional Information | LIVESTRONG.COM





aad123 said:


> I thought the shake was the important part of the recovery cycle ? Is the shake ok ?


I'm a big fan of post-workout whey, followed by a solid meal, myself. I don't bother with the carbs in that shake though - you get a nice insulin response from the whey, and that's really where all the action comes in. Insulin stores nutrients, tops up leptin and counters cortisol. The BCAAs in whey are very good at inducing a nice, strong insulin response, even in the absence of carb. Whether or not you add something like dextrose to your postworkout shake is entirely up to you. If it seems to agree with you and doesn't knock you into a caloric excess - go for it. If you get shaky from it and it seems to impede your cut, ditch it. 



aad123 said:


> I will look into adding a little more protein and complex carbs to my post post workout meal. If I have the complete 250g tub of cottage cheese we are up to 30g of protein and with the oats I get an extra amount of protein and 50g of complex carbs (are we getting some where near).
> I'm just a little worried about adding too many carbs during my cutting phase but on the other hand I dont want to waist my time in the gym with poor nutrition. If I keep my carbs lower on non workout days and follow the advise above I will be kind of carb cycling. Getting the carbs when they are needes and loosing them when they are not.


This can make dieting a lot more comfortable, to be sure. Carbs don't make you fat though - not in a deficit. They can make some of us hungrier, though. If you cycle calories and carbs higher on training days, you get a bit of a boost to look forward to. Lower carbs on the off-days makes it easier to eat fewer calories, and I've found this a very comfortable and effective strategy, myself. 

Ultimately, though, it's all about the deficit. 


aad123 said:


> On my non workout days my final meal is cottage cheese, a whey shake and a handfull of nuts, some times I will add blue berries or strawberries into the cottage cheese (if the kids havent eaten them all).
> This bodybuilding stuff is far more complicted than I ever thought.
> The weight lifting part is simple the diet is where the real hard work comes in. You need to be dedicated 100% of the time 24/7.


It is, and it isn't. People make it unnecessarily complicated. I'm doing three meals, no snacks, modest carb cycling and using an intermittent fasting approach for this cut, and it's the easiest way I've ever dieted. 




strength is pain said:


> why you gotta be such a no it all, just admitt for once that your not always right, i bet when you were my age your results, determonation and knowledge were not even half to mine. Some of your theorys are bullshit and im not the only one who belives this, for the eat part, that is obvious so stop multi correcting everything as you do not no everything!!


Now this was amusing. You're absolutely right - at your age, I knew SHIT. I also didn't give a shit.

At twenty five, I did give a shit and was faced with nothing but bro-school bullshit that didn't work. 

At thirty, I didn't understand why I did everything according to what I had been taught by the mainstream industry and still grew fatter.  

At thirty eight, I did the Atkins diet and started lifting. It spun my head around because... it worked. At this point, I cared enough to read. A lot. 

As I approach fifty, I try to share my toys so others don't have to waste as much time as I did. I've waded through a LOT of nonsense posted up as gospel on forums such as this one. I'd rather help people get results as quickly and simply as possible than allow the nonsense to perpetuate. 

As far as admitting when I'm wrong - honey, I'm wrong sometimes. Not often, not as often as I once was, but it does happen. I do my level best to correct these errors whenever I make them. If I post up something that goes against common "knowledge", I make DAMNED sure to post up a reliable source for this information. Often, I've also tried it myself. 

Just do the same and we'll get along fine. Post up recent, reliable sources of information (read: where possible, peer-reviewed research) and make a strong argument for your claim. We might have to agree to disagree, but at least you won't come off as a hothead who doesn't know how to argue his way out of a wet paper bag. (I'd hate to be that guy.  )

Deal?


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## aad123 (Jul 25, 2011)

I will take on the advice about having a solid food meal about an hour after training and will also try to determin how many grams of simple carbs to have in my shake.
On non training days I am quite happy with my diet but the training day diet needs a little work. I will have a look on fitday and work out exaxtly how many calories I will be getting and adjust so that I am still falling under my maintenance. I know that every calorie consumed counts towards that days total but if I factor in the calories burned during the weight lifting I should still be able to come in under, and if I don't get it spot on to start with it will just take a little longer to reach my goal but at least I have learned how my body works along the way. 
A lot of the diet is tryal and error but with a little help from you guys at least I'm heading in the right direction.


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## aad123 (Jul 25, 2011)

I have been onto fitday and worked out some nutrition values.
If I take my current calories at aprox 2150cal 99g fat, 80g carbs, 230g protein.
by adding 80g of simple carbs into my shake and 50g of oats after and having no milk in  my shakes I can get my cals to 2265cal, 90g fat, 151g carbs, 220g protein. I could further modify the simple carbs and oats to maintain roughly the same macros.


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## Built (Jul 25, 2011)

aad123 said:


> I will take on the advice about having a solid food meal about an hour after training and will also try to determin how many grams of simple carbs to have in my shake.


You don't need to wait an hour, just so you know. You can knock back your shake, then immediately eat your meal. I do this all the time. 

In terms of how much carb - you'll have to experiment with how you feel. Some like it high, some like it low and some like it not at all. The question you need to address first is why it is you think you need these carbs. If it's for the insulin response, you'll get one from whey all by itself. If it's to replenish glycogen, that'll happen in the hours and days following your workout, regardless of that first post workout meal. 


aad123 said:


> On non training days I am quite happy with my diet but the training day diet needs a little work. I will have a look on fitday and work out exaxtly how many calories I will be getting and adjust so that I am still falling under my maintenance. I know that every calorie consumed counts towards that days total but if I factor in the calories burned during the weight lifting I should still be able to come in under,


Do yourself a HUGE favour and ignore the calories burned during the workout. You're going to do it anyway; it's a sunk cost. Track your intake, track your strength, your conditioning, and your weight. Adjust your calories and your workouts accordingly. 



aad123 said:


> and if I don't get it spot on to start with it will just take a little longer to reach my goal but at least I have learned how my body works along the way.
> A lot of the diet is tryal and error but with a little help from you guys at least I'm heading in the right direction.


It's good to have, at the very least, a non-fucked starting point. You sound like you're on track to finding a good plan for yourself. 


aad123 said:


> I have been onto fitday and worked out some nutrition values.
> If I take my current calories at aprox 2150cal 99g fat, 80g carbs, 230g protein.
> by adding 80g of simple carbs into my shake and 50g of oats after and having no milk in  my shakes I can get my cals to 2265cal, 90g fat, 151g carbs, 220g protein. I could further modify the simple carbs and oats to maintain roughly the same macros.



Thank God for fitday. I seriously don't know how people set up diets before fitday.


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## aad123 (Aug 10, 2011)

I'v been back on the diet now for a few weeks and things seem to have slowed down. I have lost 1lb in the past two weeks but I feel that I'm no closer to my goal. I have been hitting the gym hard and heavy and this past week my diet has been super tight. I will take some measurements first thing tomorrow mornimg and look at where I can improve my diet. I have reduced the amount of simple carbs in my post workout shake and I am having 50g of oats post workout. I'm not sure if the oats or simple carbs are causing my slow progress. I am going to try removing the simple carbs completely from my post workout shake. I will do this for a few week and see what happens. I have read am artical this week that says the simple carbs are not required in the post workout shake so I will give it a try. On the plus side my training is going well on the push pull leg system. I am adding weight or reps on almost every session and my strength seems to be improving. I am on holiday this week so have been able to get to the gym and do some cardio on my non training days. I'm going away with the family next week on an adventure holiday in the forest so no gym but plenty of fresh air and exercise.


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## aad123 (Aug 31, 2011)

I have finally started my ph cycle and having kept my weight the same for a few weeks I am now starting to bulk. I have modified my diet acordingly.
I have set it up as follows using this thinking.
2200 maint cals + 600 cals = 2800
pro = 200g x 4 cals = 800 cals
fat = 100g x 9 cals = 900 cals
2700 - (800 + 900) = 1100 cals
1000 / 4 = 275 cals of carbs.

Protein 200g
Carbs 275g
Fats 100g
I have divided the macros into 5 meals each containing 40g protein, 20g fats and 55g cabrs. Using fitday I have created several meals that fall as close to these ratios as possible eg.
120g chicken, brocolli, 200g sweet potato, 20g nuts = p39, c48, f21
1 tin tuna, 2 spoons of mayo 100g sweet potato, 1 apple, 20g mixed nuts = p41, c46, f24.
This is just 2 examples but by keeping the macros the same and switching between a variety of meals I shouldn't get boared with the diet. I have also cut down on the quantity of shakes and replaced them with whole foods. I am a little unsure on the question of fruit, some say its good some say its bad ? any ideas. How does the diet look. Please comment as any input is good.


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## aad123 (Oct 14, 2011)

14/10/2011
I will use this thread as a training and diet diary.
Diet today went a little crazy as had to buy food at work. Poor planning did indeed lead to poor performance !!!
3070 cal
109 fat
285 carb
240 pro
Water 7lt

Trained legs and shoulders - heavy day. 3*6 for each movement.
Squats
Mill press
Seated DB press
Shrugs
Weight 176lb will measure waist in the morning as I have just drank 1.5lt of water whilst training and a further 0.5lt with my shake.
That's it for now off to eat some cottage cheese, oats and nuts. yum yum.


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## jimm (Oct 15, 2011)

Totally off subject here but see when people post how do you put in sever quotes rather then just one? Cheers haha sorry for high jakin ur thread dude.. Wont do it again.. As far as cutting have you tried the eca stack?


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## Built (Oct 15, 2011)

jimm, see this little button at the bottom right of each post? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 This is the "multiquote" feature.

When you click it, it changes colour: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Just click multiquote for whichever posts you wish to include in your respond, then hit the 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 button to begin your post. 

/threadjack


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## jimm (Oct 15, 2011)

Built said:


> jimm, see this little button at the bottom right of each post?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
haha thank you built sendin love ur way...


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## aad123 (Oct 16, 2011)

I measured my waist this morning and its starting to creap up a little too high. I'm thinking of lowering my carbs a little and going super strict on my diet. I have been having the odd chock bar here and the odd packet of crisps (french fries) there and its all starting to add up and happen a little too often. I went out for a meal last night 11" meat feast pizza followed by 5 beers, now thats out of my system I can start over today.


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## joboco (Oct 16, 2011)

aad123 said:


> I measured my waist this morning and its starting to creap up a little too high. I'm thinking of lowering my carbs a little and going super strict on my diet. I have been having the odd chock bar here and the odd packet of crisps (french fries) there and its all starting to add up and happen a little too often. I went out for a meal last night 11" meat feast pizza followed by 5 beers, now thats out of my system I can start over today.


 
You pig lol. 
The occasional pig out cant be bad, can it! but as you say if it gets too often then you should bring it back into line.
No point wasting all the hard work you have already done.

No I've finished giving you a pep talk I'd better take my own advise and finish that box of celebrations.


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## aad123 (Oct 16, 2011)

Ate a lot better today, only had a very small slice of cake whilst visiting my dear old mom.
I tried to turn it down but she wouldn't take no for an answer. I'm not sure 140g of steak with broccoli and 20g of brazil nuts was the best idea for my last meal as its not sitting too well at the moment.
Trained chest today and took a sneaky look in the changing room mirror with my top off and I didn't look too bad. Made me think I was over reacting to adding a little fat. I will keep adjusting the diet and see how I go. I will try and reduce my carbs to aprox 200g and increase my protein to make up the additional cals to get me to 2600ish. I think my body just reacts badly to too high carb intake and sweet potatoes seem to be the worst? I never feel to bad on brown rice so I will try a little experiment and keep off the sweet potato for a week and see what happens.
Off to bed now as I will be up at 5.30am to drive 4 hours to a meeting that will last about an hour followed by the 4 hour return drive.


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## aad123 (Oct 18, 2011)

18/10/2011
Diet went well today and my new supply of casein protein arrived so will be having that with cottage cheese as my last meal. I will also have 100g of oats as its a training day.
Trained back today and was nearly sick half way through my second set of dead lifts.
one arm bent row 3*8
pulldowns - wide 3*10
deadlifts 3*15
close grip pulldowns 3*10
t-bat row 3*12
By the time I got to my last set of t-bar I could only just lift the bar. I had to sit in my car for 10 mins after I finished I was so drained. I'm looking forward to my day of tomorrow and hopefully my back will feel like its been worked.
Time for supper.


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## aad123 (Oct 19, 2011)

19/10/2011
No gym today so taking it easy.
Todays diet went well.
cals 2710
pro 246
carbs 217
fat 93.
Not a lot more to say.


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## testosteronebaby (Oct 22, 2011)

if i were you i would still have a solid pospost wo meal even if it's close to sleep time


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## aad123 (Oct 24, 2011)

maintained at 178lb this week, training has been going well but i have been feeling a little sleepy in the early evening so I am taking a few days of training and will resume on wednesday. i have been reading up on over training and i think i may be overdoing it so i will back off a little.
no work this week so my diet will be a little off the pace. i dont seem to be as structured when im off work as there are no set break times and when your out and about with the kids you have to eat when you can. im still making sure i get my 200+ g of protein and fats but im not too bothered about my carbs. i will get back on track next week.


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## aad123 (Oct 25, 2011)

25/10/2011

No gym today but went swimming this morning and took a walk in the afternoon.
I am going to give carb cycling a try for a month or so to see what happens. My plan is to reduce my carbs on non-training days to around 100g a day and on training days I will increase them to 200 to 250g with the extra carbs being consumed pre and post workout. This should help lean me out a little and when I get to a comfortable level I will try to bulk again. I think last time I increased my carbs too steeply and my diet wasn't clean enough so this time I will try and bulk slower on lower carbs.
Todays macros were almost spot on.
carbs 101g
pro 248g
fat 99g
2268 cals.


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## aad123 (Oct 26, 2011)

26/10/2011
Trained back today. This was a shock session made up of supersets.
pulldown wide/pulldown narrow 3*8
b-bar row/bent row 3*8
deadlift/shrugs 3*8
seated row to finish, one strip set.
Workout wasn't anything special, this may be because I have increased the weight since last time and I couldn't complete 8 reps on every set. May reduce the weight a little next time I do a shock week so I feel the muscle work more. My form was a little off on the rows.
Diet went almost to plan.
cals 2767
fat 111g
carbs 193g
pro 254g


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## aad123 (Nov 16, 2011)

16/11/2011

I have been carb cycling for the past few weeks and I am now up to 181lb. I purchased a set of skin fold calipers and using them combined with a few websites I have worked by bodyfat to be 13%. I will stick to the diet for now and measure my weight and bodyfat every week and adjust my diet to suit. I have kept my diet almost the same everyday but I do take sundays as a cheat day. 
Things seem to be going well at the moment with my diet but I do have a question about training. I started a 4 day split that I took from a website but the amount of leg work was very little so I modified it to include a leg day. This then became a 5 day split but because I can only get to the gym 3 or 4 times a week it ment I was only training each body part once every 10 to 12 days. To reduce this I got rid of the arm day and put bis with back and tris with chest. The problem is that I dont feel my arms are getting enough stimulation. Do I go back to the 5 day split or stick to the 4 day with reduced arm training ?? Any ideas.


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## aad123 (Nov 20, 2011)

20/11/2011

Been looking back over this thread and on April 3rd 2011 I was 182lb at 21% body fat. Having cut for well over 20 weeks then built slowly back up I am again at 182lb but now a more reasonable 14% body fat. 8 months of hard work and dedication has paid off.  I am planning on bulking up to 190lb and then cutting down again to around 182lb but at 10% body fat.


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## Built (Nov 20, 2011)

Nice!


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