# Big Clenbutrx Deal!!!



## gopro (Apr 6, 2004)

FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT LOVE CLENBUTRX, THE BEST FAT BURNER ON THE MARKET, WE ARE RUNNING AN AWESOME DEAL UNTIL APRIL 12TH WHEN EPHEDRA WILL BE NO MORE...

BUY THREE BOTTLES AND GET 4 FREE!!!! YUP, BUY 3 GET 4!

GO TO WWW.VPXSPORTS.COM OR CALL 800-954-7904


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## David Tolson (Apr 6, 2004)

This product is amazing.

Not only are the majority of the ingredients underdosed and/or useless, but the price is still unjustifiably high after the deal. On top of that, you get ephedrine and yohimbine together, and there are about 100 reasons not to take this combination.

I still want to buy it though. I mean, with a product description such as this, who wouldn't?

Clenbutrx's pharmacodynamics revolve around a synergism encompassing thermogenisis, neruogenisis, thyrogenisis, insulinogenisis and antiestrogenisis.

Holy shit, I think I became retarded just reading that.


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## Eggs (Apr 6, 2004)

If you didnt want to buy it you could have just said so and given your reasons.  Your sarcastic little statements didnt really contribute all that much.

If you're the David Tolson from BN, which it very much looks like you are, I'd hope that degree in biochemistry or whatever you are studying for gives you more cause to provide evidence for what you claim and not just to make noise.

I wouldnt make the purchase either... but regardless, attaching your name and company to a jackass post reflects poorly on both you and them.  Mike at 1Fast is a cool guy and I enjoy the service he provides... I'd hope you would act in a manner that compliments that instead of detracting from it.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 6, 2004)

there was no need for a negative post regarding the clen.  GoPro wasn't shilling anything.  it was  a freaking announcement of a substantial savings.  If this was indeed an employee of Bulk nutrition making that sarcastic comment, then my opinion of Bulk nutrition just went into the shitter!  I won't be buying from Bulk nutrition any time soon.  
my posts about the endless shilling and obvious sham advertising on this board are about the "falseness " and false sincerity of the person making the posts themselves.  
perhaps, rather than continuing  with your studies in biochemisty, you should take a course in interpersonal skills development 101.  you must not have shared your toys in kindergarden.


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## SZ03 (Apr 6, 2004)

lets relax guys. If you do not like his comments do not follow them or just ignore them

While he did throw a cheap shot at VPXs marketing (a lot of people do outside this board), he was just making a statement about the product.

I am not sure if working for 1fast has to do with anything since Mike also sells this product

SZ


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## SZ03 (Apr 6, 2004)

On a side note this statement is quite funny:

Clenbutrx's pharmacodynamics revolve around a synergism encompassing thermogenisis, neruogenisis, thyrogenisis, insulinogenisis and antiestrogenisis.



I am assuming they mean genesis not genisis, which means the "creation of"

taking that statement

ClenX will

thermogenisis: create heat--makes sense

neruogenisis: I am assuming that means Neurogenesis, which means the production of new nervous tissue/neurons. I am not exactly sure what ingredient in ClenX would do that. LOL

Thyrogenesis: To tell you the truth I am not sure if that word even exists. PUBMED returns no results for that word. I am assuming they mean it will optimize thyroid function or it will create a new thyroid to increase metablic rate. Maybe that is where is the neurogenesis part comes in? To innervate the new thyroid??

Insulinogenesis: the formation and release of insulin by the islands of Langerhans. According to this ClenX will increase the release of Insulin, which I thought was bad for wait loss.

antiestrogenisis: ClenX will fight the formation of estrogen. Again I do not know if that is true since I have not looked at the ingredients extensively.

I think David was making the point (even though he was more hostile towards the product) that the statement, aside from gross mispellings was a bunch of big words thrown together. Most of them used incorrectly, others probably not true, but to the avg person sound good since they never bother checking out what they actually mean.



Anyways that being said i have used the product and it was the best in terms of energy since I used Ultimate Orange. It was likely due to the combo of ephedra and Yohimbine, but it did give me a kick in the behind. Not sure about the fat burning potency though.

SZ


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## Eggs (Apr 6, 2004)

Marcus - I wouldnt stop buying from 1Fast if David writes for them... a more appropriate action would probably be to tell him to word his thoughts more as constructive criticism rather than simply talking smack.  The service 1Fast provides is in no way in question with this... just a guy getting a bit too gung-ho in the wording of an advertisement.

SZ03 - I understood Davids point quite clearly, and in some regards I agree with him.  However, he can back what he is saying up without trying to be offensive... and that was my point.

As to not following anybodys posts... I in no way came to this thread to see his posting.  However, being that if he can make a posting, I am certainly entitled to respond to it.  Right? 

That said, VPX could do well to utilize the English language a bit more efficiently.

neurogenisis: Formation of nervous tissue.

thyrogenisis: No definition.

insulinogenesis: Production of insulin.

antiestrogenisis: No definition.

Obviously a poor use of word formation,  done to excite people who dont know any better, or perhaps taking for granted that people would connect the words without criticism.  Ah well


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 6, 2004)

i don't believe in negative advertisements.  i leave that for the politicians.
if 1fast or bulk nutrition endorses the comments that this fellow made, then it reflects poorly on the company.

as for the other comments by Sz; perhaps you could direct these same comments about ignoring or not following the advice to this David person.   It is always the same;  person A  makes a negative comment,. person B takes person A to task for the negative comment and someone always comes back to person B.  

and then there is the case that someone is always telling someone else on the internet to " chill out bro"  or ' relax "  when i can't imagine being any more relaxed.  i have to laugh.  probably just me tho.  makes for interesting threads and I admit that i read these crazy threads quite often.

to circumvent someone accusing me of being frantic,  i would insert a smiley thingy in here at this time yet i am in the wrong post.  let's try


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## Var (Apr 6, 2004)

Personally, I thought DT's post was pretty damn funny.


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## Eggs (Apr 6, 2004)

It was funny.  But when a respected member of the board makes a post professionally, you respond as such.

You know, like if your principal in high school (or our boss for most of us now) came to your class to speak to you... you didnt say "huh huh, pull my finger".  He was there in a professional manner, and it should be respected as such.

On the other hand, if you're his buddy and you go drinking later on at the bar... by all means use the "huh huh, pull my finger" gag


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## Var (Apr 6, 2004)

I dont know man.  This is a message board.  You post here and everyone has the opportunity to reply saying pretty much whatever they want (unless it breaks rules set up by the Admin).  IM is certainly pretty laid back about post rules, and he made some good points about VPX's advertising without making any rude comments to/ about GP.  I dont see what you're getting so worked up about.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 6, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Var *_
> Personally, I thought DT's post was pretty damn funny.



yes it was funny.  it was clear that he didn't think much of the product.  there is nothing , repeat absolutely nothing wrong with that.  all those made up words were simply to show how stupid some company's adverts are.  several companies slap some pseudo-scientific made up name to their product in the hope that no one cares enough to look it up.  moreover, his comment " I still want to buy it though. I mean, with a product description such as this, who wouldn't?"  quite rightly shows the thinking behind the goons who run the supplement companies.  
put a 5 color label, show several scientific references from obscure journals and then use some made up scientific term to describes it's purported actions.  all just a sham.  


what isn't funny is that it is a cheap shot.  Firstly,   GoPro wasn't shilling it to anyone.  he clearly states " for those of you who love clenbut..."   If you don't like Clen....  then don't bother posting.  it wasn't meant for you.  the same comment made to myself / Eggs regarding our not responding or ignoring DT's post should have been directed towards DT- the original culprit.  Not the people responding to what is so obviously a cheap shot.  

Secondly, IF DT is in fact an employee for another supplement company, 1fast 400 whose subsidiary makes a similar product ( does Underground Labs make a similar product? ), then it bodes poorly for 1fast400. It makes them look rather slimy to have an employee badmouth a competitor's product on an open board so blatantly as that. 

Notice that both Eggs and myself have said " if" he is an employee or "if" he is in fact this DAvid T.  fellow.


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## Vieope (Apr 6, 2004)

_Nobody can say who posted the criticism, so you can´t blame bulk nutrition for that. Because somebody could do it just to make bulk look bad. Let´s forget about this post. In fact, it was funny.  _


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 6, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Var *_
> I dont know man.  This is a message board.  You post here and everyone has the opportunity to reply saying pretty much whatever they want (unless it breaks rules set up by the Admin).  IM is certainly pretty laid back about post rules, and he made some good points about VPX's advertising without making any rude comments to/ about GP.  I dont see what you're getting so worked up about.



i rarely see people getting worked up.  there have been a few times when someone clearly has lost it but for the most part,  i imagine that the other person is calmly writing a rebuttal or agreement.  
so,, with that in mind,  i don't believe that anyone in here is getting worked up about anything.  pointing out the obvious is not getting worked up. 
 

VPX does have some stupid names for products.  is that gangsta shit made by these people?  man, what a stupid name..  

it seems to me that it was a cheap shot made on a person (gopro) who is too professional to comment in any way.  some people may not have thought that it was a cheap shot, much like they believed Todd BErtuzzi did nothing wrong with hitting steve moore from behind then pile driving his head into the ice.  a cheap shot is a cheap shot.  
DT comments came out of the blue-  he certainly could have made an entire thread devoted to company's stupid adverts.  and pointed out the fact that just about every company resorts to this sort of thing.   

so DT, you have a valid point.  start a thread highlighting EVERY company's crazy ads.  

If you do work for Bulk Nutrition,  the mission statement for that particular company must be something else.


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## Eggs (Apr 6, 2004)

Marcus - I dont think UG makes anything similar to clen specifically, in fact 1Fast/BN carries all VPX products as far as I know of.

As far as 1Fast, I'm sure that this has very little to do with them... it was just a statement by David and he didnt realize the political ramifications of him making a statement under a name that he uses professionally in the same field.  I didnt in fact have a problem with him making a statement, I just wanted it to be constructive and provide support for its claims instead of being a diss.


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## Jodi (Apr 6, 2004)

1 thing to think of here in all of this:

*This is Spam and we remove Spam from here, its just because it's Gopro's post it did get removed.*

So if someone wants to bash a product, then I thinks its fine.  He was bashing a product, not a person.  If he had bashed Gopro, then this should be treated differently.  There is nothing wrong with give a bad opinion or a sarcastic response to a product that they don't like.


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## Eggs (Apr 6, 2004)

Certainly Jodi 

Perhaps you might agree though that when one has ties to a supplement manufacturer (and thus are in the biz) that they'd respond appropriately to each other?  Instead of simply making silly comments about a product/advertising problem... it would be more beneficial for them to state the problems they see and then back it up with some information.

For example, the statement "Not only are the majority of the ingredients underdosed and/or useless" could have been followed up by a break down of the ingredients and the quantities needed to be effective so that we, the consumers, could be better informed.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 6, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> 1 thing to think of here in all of this:
> 
> *This is Spam and we remove Spam from here, its just because it's Gopro's post it did get removed.*



Kinda like this one...
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29580&highlight=bags

lol


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## DrChiro (Apr 6, 2004)

Liquid Clenbutrx??? Supplement Facts: 
Serving Size: 5ml
Servings per Container: 24
 Amount per Serving 
 DV%

Calories 
 4
 0%

Total Carbohydrates 
 1g 
 0%

Sugars 
 0g 
 0%

Total Fat
   Saturated Fat 
   Unsaturated Fat 
 0g 
0g 
0g 
 2%
**
0% 

Mahuang 
 312mg 
 **

Caffeine Anhydrous 
 200mg 
 ** 

Citrus Aurantium @ 95% Synephrine 
 60mg 
 **

Vinpocentine 
 10mg 
 **

Yohimbine HCL 
 5.5mg 
 **

*Percent daily values (DV%) are based on a 2000 Calorie diet.
**Daily value not established

Additional Ingredients: Proprietary blend: Sucralose, Natural Flavor & Colors in VPX's Proprietary Liposomal Matrix.


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## DrChiro (Apr 6, 2004)

sorry that "copy/paste" thing didnt work too well.

anyway....i just wanted to list the ingredients in response to David Tolson's remark about them being underdosed....they seem ok to me.

i'm not sure why vpx charges so much for most of their stuff...and their claims can be a bit outragous at times which makes them lose credability in my book.....but as far as a decent thermogenic goes, clenbutrx is pretty damn good.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 6, 2004)

Doc, are you referring to their prices compared to other web sites or just in general?  All mfgrs charge too much on their own sites IMHO.


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## Jodi (Apr 6, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> Kinda like this one...
> http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29580&highlight=bags
> 
> lol


Ahh but this is a member that found a good deal and is sharing it.   Monolith doesn't work for 1fast - big difference IMO!


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 6, 2004)

Okay smartass...I learned along time ago not to argue with women...at least in public. lol

How ya liking AZ Jodi?


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## Jodi (Apr 6, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> Certainly Jodi
> 
> Perhaps you might agree though that when one has ties to a supplement manufacturer (and thus are in the biz) that they'd respond appropriately to each other?  Instead of simply making silly comments about a product/advertising problem... it would be more beneficial for them to state the problems they see and then back it up with some information.
> ...


An explanation is always better than a blanket statement, yes of course.  However, its not like he was trying to compete with the product, in this case he appears to be expressing his personal opinion and POV, not bashing a product because of competition.


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## Jodi (Apr 6, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> Okay smartass...I learned along time ago not to argue with women...at least in public. lol
> 
> How ya liking AZ Jodi?


Excellent thanks!   We've got to catch up sometime


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 6, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> Excellent thanks!   We've got to catch up sometime



Absolutely.  Grab the BF and lets go grab bite sometime.


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## PreMier (Apr 6, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> Kinda like this one...
> http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29580&highlight=bags
> 
> lol




Son of a bitch!!!  I was looking for this the other day 

Now I already ordered! Fuck.


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## Twin Peak (Apr 6, 2004)

This whole thing is a darn shame.  Sarcasm has no place on message boards.


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## Eggs (Apr 6, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> This whole thing is a darn shame.  Sarcasm has no place on message boards.



Here here!

Buncha smart asses... the whole lot of you.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 7, 2004)

i dont see how this is spam any more than the dozens of  other posts about Nectar.  No one has ever removed those particular posts and it is the most blatant example of shameless product promotion i have ever seen.  Whether one works for the company or not is irrelevent.  your post about this being spam it should be removed is clearly wrong.  he was announcing a good price on a particular product for those people who like that exact particular product.  

that ain't spam.


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## David Tolson (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> there was no need for a negative post regarding the clen.  GoPro wasn't shilling anything.  it was  a freaking announcement of a substantial savings.  If this was indeed an employee of Bulk nutrition making that sarcastic comment, then my opinion of Bulk nutrition just went into the shitter!  I won't be buying from Bulk nutrition any time soon.
> my posts about the endless shilling and obvious sham advertising on this board are about the "falseness " and false sincerity of the person making the posts themselves.
> perhaps, rather than continuing  with your studies in biochemisty, you should take a course in interpersonal skills development 101.  you must not have shared your toys in kindergarden.



All right I apologize, you are right.

VPX has just really angered me recently, even more than usual. I do have many rational objections to make, including obvious marketing to teenagers, unjustifiable price markups, excessive pseudoscience in advertising, and lies in advertising, even when the health of the consumer is at risk. At some times you just have to give up and vent. But I could've expressed myself better.


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## David Tolson (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> i don't believe in negative advertisements.  i leave that for the politicians.
> if 1fast or bulk nutrition endorses the comments that this fellow made, then it reflects poorly on the company.



Don't confuse negative advertisement and honesty. Keep in mind that BN/1fast does sell VPX products. The fact that I am willing to tell consumers what I actually think of the products rather than just pimping them should say something positive about the company, not negative. You will always get my honest opinion.


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## David Tolson (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> Certainly Jodi
> 
> Perhaps you might agree though that when one has ties to a supplement manufacturer (and thus are in the biz) that they'd respond appropriately to each other?  Instead of simply making silly comments about a product/advertising problem... it would be more beneficial for them to state the problems they see and then back it up with some information.
> ...



I think you are right, the issue isn't whether or not I had the right to make that post as per forum rules but how it reflects on the company. I don't consider myself in any way an "official" representative of the stance of BN, in fact Mike is pretty much the only one there is, but I must pragmatically acknowledge that others are going to. I'm not going to censor my opinion but I can change the way I say it.

And this post was probably out of context for many, who haven't seen my many posts, on many boards, that criticize VPX prices/marketing in ways that are a little more rational. Here is one from a VPX debate on on another board from yesterday:

My reasons:

First, suggested retail prices _over 40 times wholesale_, with multiple competitors offering the exact same products for 5-10 times less in many cases. Yet the products still sell. There's nothing "innovative" going on here, it's all marketing to douche bags who think they get what they pay for. It pisses me off, nothing justifies markup of this kind. Nothing that involves a shred of dignity of course.

Second, deceptive advertising that is potentially harmful to the consumer. A bunch of psuedoscience added on in the ads to impress those who don't know any better.

Examples from the VPX website:

"Methyl-1-test is virtually side effect free"

"These Phamodynamic Characteristics Unlock the Mystery to Uncontrolled Growth!"

"a synthesized matrix of synergistic phytochemicals complexed amidst powerful intrinsic prohormones"

"VPX has now engineered a compound called 4-Hydroxy Nandrolone Decanoate," as if they thought of it themselves, rather than getting it from an old steroid biochemistry book everyone in the industry has.

"After entering the bloodstream, a powerful pharmacological phenomena medically known as pharmacokinetics occurs when PARADECAâ??????S multilayered phospholipids naturally break down dispersing billions of prohormone and phytochemical molecules into the body."


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## David Tolson (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by DrChiro *_
> Mahuang
> 312mg
> **



Well first it bugs me that it doesn't say how much ephedrine there is. I couldn't easily find it on the website although it may be somewhere. It's probably 25 mg but I still think stuff like that (stimulants) should be listed on the label or well known.



> Caffeine Anhydrous
> 200mg
> **
> 
> ...



No problems here. 



> Vinpocentine
> 10mg
> **



According to dose-response studies, vinpo is ineffective in healthy people until a dose hits 40 mg, maybe 30 mg.



> *Percent daily values (DV%) are based on a 2000 Calorie diet.
> **Daily value not established
> 
> Additional Ingredients: Proprietary blend: Sucralose, Natural Flavor & Colors in VPX's Proprietary Liposomal Matrix.



According to the website the product also contains:

12.5 mg 5-HTP

Clinical weight loss studies used 36 times this amount, you need at least 100 mg daily for this to have any significant effect at all, preferably 300 mg. IOW this ingredient is just in here for show.

22.5 mg 4-hydroxyisoleucine

You need around 300-500 mg at the least for this compound to be effective.

As you can see the only thing they put in in sufficient quantities were the CNS stimulants. Which is good from a marketing standpoint. As I posted on another board:

There are so many different factors, that it is difficult to ever isolate the fat burner you are taking as the sole cause of fat loss. People often give positive feedback based on their perception of what a fat burner should be like - I've noticed that if something makes the person feel wired, they will think it is a potent fat burner, even if it's not. This is why many companies hide large amounts of caffeine in their products, even though caffeine is not a very effective fat burner by itself. They know that people will "feel it working." And, with ephedrine and yohimbine, you will definitely "feel it." But this isn't necessarily indicative of positive results.

Personally, I recommend against combining the two, for safety reasons - ephedrine (with caffeine) is very effective, and the effectiveness will increase pretty much linearly up until about 100-150 mg, so if you aren't taking that much, then just increasing the dosage will increase your results. It is best to keep it simple, and that way you can guage exactly how you are reacting to the compound, without having to guess which one is causing a certain effect.


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## gopro (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by David Tolson *_
> This product is amazing.
> 
> Not only are the majority of the ingredients underdosed and/or useless, but the price is still unjustifiably high after the deal. On top of that, you get ephedrine and yohimbine together, and there are about 100 reasons not to take this combination.
> ...



Clenbutrx has proven itself to be one of, if not THE most potent fat burner on the market, despite any wording or advertising of the product that you personally do not like.

Step lightly.


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## David Tolson (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Clenbutrx has proven itself to be one of, if not THE most potent fat burner on the market, despite any wording or advertising of the product that you personally do not like.



Really - did you do a clinical study?

What makes it different than, say, Lipo 6 EF + ephedrine HCl, which provides the same ingredients, as well as other biogenic amines and forskolin, is less expensive, will be available OTC after the ban (not that I recommend use of OTC drugs off-label of course), and doesn't involve paying money to a company with such marketing tactics? I mean I'll admit Nutrex exaggerates, but it's not even in the same ballpark.



> Step lightly.



I'm not sure what you mean by this, could you elaborate?

I mean no personal insult to you, of course. In fact I rarely criticize supplements/companies so harshly just because I recognize and appreciate the hard work involved in many of the processes in making a supplement. I object to many of the activities of some of the major companies, but try not to make blanket statements about them. But VPX just takes it too far, and continues to take it too far, especially where safety is involved - I hope you can see where I'm coming from.


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## gopro (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by David Tolson *_
> Really - did you do a clinical study?
> 
> What makes it different than, say, Lipo 6 EF + ephedrine HCl, which provides the same ingredients, as well as other biogenic amines and forskolin, is less expensive, will be available OTC after the ban (not that I recommend use of OTC drugs off-label of course), and doesn't involve paying money to a company with such marketing tactics? I mean I'll admit Nutrex exaggerates, but it's not even in the same ballpark.
> ...



Perhaps its in the polylipid delivery system which so many people discount, or maybe in our raw materials, or our manufacturing process...but Clenbutrx has risen to the top of the fat burner market for one reason...it seems to outperform all the rest (we know its the most expensive, so it MUST work if people keep spending the money on it). I cannot tell you how many athletes from other companies (that sell similar fat burners) come to us for Liquid Clenbutrx. Some don't even call, they just come by our booth at the biggest shows and ask to buy Clenbutrx. When I ask them why the ydon't use their own stuff that they can get for free, they always reply, "Cause Clenbutrx works sooo much better." 

When I say step lightly I mean it seems so far that your main purpose in joining this board has been to...

1- Bash VPX
2- Get beta testers for MRM

If you continually bash VPX in every thread that appears about it I will make sure you don't last long here. Contribute something useful or remain at bodybuilding.com where you can do as you please.


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## Twin Peak (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> ....but Clenbutrx has risen to the top of the fat burner market for one reason...it seems to outperform all the rest (we know its the most expensive, so it MUST work if people keep spending the money on it)....



Eric, you and I both know that this logic is faulty -- one does not necessarily follow other.

That said, there is certainly a ton of positive anecdotal feedback on this product; and I have seen none negative.

I'd be interested in trying it, out of curiousity, but (unlike the various reps you mentioned) I wouldn't pay for it with so many other options at my fingertips.

Personally, I don't think David's purpose here is to stir up shit; its not his character.  Though on occassion, it is good for anyplace to have its shit stirred.


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## tucker01 (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> When I say step lightly I mean it seems so far that your main purpose in joining this board has been to...
> 
> 1- Bash VPX
> ...




Have you checked his posts?  

I would say you are seeing things with blinders on.  He has provided some good points in other threads.


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## Jodi (Apr 7, 2004)

BTW - This was David's first post and it has nothing to do with VPX. http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29745


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## Twin Peak (Apr 7, 2004)

Jodi, Eric said VPX or MRM.


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## tucker01 (Apr 7, 2004)




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## Eggs (Apr 7, 2004)

Thanks for quantifying those things David... facts and examples are things we can all respect 

On a side note, whats wrong with David trying to get Beta Testers for MRM?  I'd like to think that the more companies we have beta testing here the better... that way it gives more of the members a chance to participate.  I personally would like to see tons of testing going on at IM.com


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## Jodi (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Jodi, Eric said VPX or MRM.


  I'm tired and sick so I missed that.    My bad.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 7, 2004)

DAvid,   i figured that this must be just the final volley of some battle/game between you and gopro.  it seemed to come out of nowhere.   

most ppl agree with your comments about the stupid claims and outrageous adverts.  a thread about this wouldn't last long as the sponsors would be upset and pull their deals with the board owners.  maybe we can go back to the early 90's wheN bill philips would give his ' seal of approval ' rating on specific companies....  

As for deleting threads;  i would rather see those dozens of  shameless plugs for companies/products by people on this board deleted by Prince.  the sly insidious advertising by embedded marketers on boards should be ended yet nothing is ever done about it.  

jodi, sorry to hear that you are not well.  you are tired and sick.  i am sick and tired....


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## Jodi (Apr 7, 2004)

Thanks, damn cold for the past few days.  Sore throat to boot. 

Oh and the word Syntrax brings a thought to my mind.


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## Twin Peak (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> DAvid,   i figured that this must be just the final volley of some battle/game between you and gopro.  it seemed to come out of nowhere.
> 
> most ppl agree with your comments about the stupid claims and outrageous adverts.  a thread about this wouldn't last long as the sponsors would be upset and pull their deals with the board owners.  maybe we can go back to the early 90's wheN bill philips would give his ' seal of approval ' rating on specific companies....
> ...



My, my, my, you are the conspiracy theorist.  Start a thread.  I guarantee that none of the sponsors pull anything, and several company reps that peruse the board would probably join in (myself included).

Also, most of the threads you are speaking of are legit posts by respected members of the board.  Others are legit posts by company reps (so long as they disclose thier affiliation, etc.).  There can be problems where company reps post as unbiased members, and that is shady, and fraudulent, in my opinion.  Every effort should be made to flush out and expose such persons.  Ultimately, Darwinism will reign, as exposing such trolls will do the company more harm then good.

So again, I state, please, discuss these important issues.  We need to police our industry.  But don't overgeneralize when doing so.


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## gopro (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Eric, you and I both know that this logic is faulty -- one does not necessarily follow other.
> 
> That said, there is certainly a ton of positive anecdotal feedback on this product; and I have seen none negative.
> ...



No, I don't think the logic is faulty at all. If I try a product of ANY kind that is more expensive than others, but is supposed to be better, it better live up to it or I will never purchase it again, opting for a cheaper product that works similarly.

Clenbutrx is RARELY advertised yet remained as one of the top selling products on the market, with most feeling it is the best fat burner out there. I have seen this for years already, long before I started with VPX. Products that don't "produce" do not resell. Products that don't resell disappear. Clenbutrx has remained on or near the top for many many years now for one reason...it WORKS amazingly well.

AS far as David's purpose here, I have seen his kind before. He goes by a different name over at bbing.com and posts the same VPX bashes over there. In fact, he copied and pasted one of his responses over there and put it up over here.

I don't mind him being here, especially if he contributes good info, but if he thinks he will have the opportunity to bash VPX every chance he gets he has another thing coming.

We all know his feelings now, so he can move onto other business.


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## Twin Peak (Apr 7, 2004)

Eric, so you have never heard of Cell-Tech?

Please don't tell me you think its sales data proves that it is the best creatine product on the market.

That is my only point, one does not inextricably follow the next.


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## gopro (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Eric, so you have never heard of Cell-Tech?
> 
> Please don't tell me you think its sales data proves that it is the best creatine product on the market.
> ...



However, despite what people say, there is nothing wrong with Cell Tech. Forget about how its advertised. It contains quality creatine, simple sugars, and ALA...a very effective mix for people looking to get stronger and put on weight quickly. Its market is really teens, athletes, and ectomorphs that have trouble adding size. There is nothing inherently wrong with Cell Tech and its not a scam product. It does the job it was intended to do.


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## Var (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> If you continually bash VPX in every thread that appears about it I will make sure you don't last long here. Contribute something useful or remain at bodybuilding.com where you can do as you please.



I sure as hell hope that this isnt the route my favorite bodybuilding site is taking.    This has always been an open environment for people to say whats on their minds and provide "honest" feedback.  If people are going to get banned (or whatever it is you're implying) when they go against you, your current employer, or your personal beliefs...this is a truly sad situation.


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## Twin Peak (Apr 7, 2004)

See that is point, it doesn't do the job it is advertized to do.

That aside, for the price, its a rip-off, yet it still sells off the chart, which proves my point that sales volume does not necessarily equate to effectiveness.


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## craig777 (Apr 7, 2004)

You know what I find interesting, is that when VPX is dragged through the mud and gopro defends them he is chastised thoroughly for it.

If Avant was under attack does anyone think that the Avant people here wouldn't immediately form a lynching party.

Why is it OK for some and not for others.  

Just my observation, and I am not blaming the Avant people just using that as an example  



This whole thread was started trying to do everyone a favor, I sometimes wonder why gopro continues to do it.  Now instead of the intended purpose everyone comes here to see the fighting.


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## Twin Peak (Apr 7, 2004)

Have I been fighting?

I see nothing wrong with this thread, or Eric's intent with it.

And do you seriously think Avant has not "been attacked?"


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> However, despite what people say, there is nothing wrong with Cell Tech. Forget about how its advertised. It contains quality creatine, simple sugars, and ALA...a very effective mix for people looking to get stronger and put on weight quickly. Its market is really teens, athletes, and ectomorphs that have trouble adding size. There is nothing inherently wrong with Cell Tech and its not a scam product. It does the job it was intended to do.




No one was saying Celltech is a scam.  The point is that there are 100 other products out there that have the EXACT same ingredients in it.  Sure it is probably the best selling one, but what TP is getting at is that does not necessarily translate to it being the best.  The reason it sells better is because:

A)Heavy, misleading advertising
Showing geared up pros immeidiately after an accident and the after a heavy cycle in every single mag for 6 pages.

B)It costs more.
If company A sells a product at 3 times the amount of company B, company B has to sell 3 times as much of the product to break even with company A.


The only logical way to say that Company A's product is better than Company B's product, is to run a clinical trial and measure the pertinent data (Not marketing data).  I have yet to see ANY company put forth ANY evidence from a clinical trial using GCP showing that they are superior to another.  This is a very expensive process that many companies cannot afford.  This is why I really believe the industry NEEDS regulation.  On the one end it would prolly drive prices high, but you would have alot less scammers out there.  I like seeing the little "beta" pilot trials, they are pretty neat, but for any of them to hold water you would need to have an equal amount of placebo participants to compare the results to and come to an informed conclusion.


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## David Tolson (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Perhaps its in the polylipid delivery system which so many people discount, or maybe in our raw materials, or our manufacturing process...



Polylipid delivery system? None of those actives are even fat-soluble (except maybe vinpo, don't know about that one).

Raw materials - you mean the yohimbine HCl that comes from VPX is molecularly different from the yohimbine of 99%+ purity that I buy elsewhere?

Come on man. This is what I am talking about when I say pseudoscience.



> but Clenbutrx has risen to the top of the fat burner market for one reason...it seems to outperform all the rest (we know its the most expensive, so it MUST work if people keep spending the money on it).



"Seems to." We have different outlooks, and it's not even going to be worth arguing about. You seem to think personal feedback on supplements indicates what does and doesn't work. This is a very good attitude to promote if a supplement has weaky scientific basis but is marketed well enough that people will get a good placebo effect. Do I need to explain how strong the placebo effect is? Strong enough that you can give someone methamphetamine, and tell them it is a sedative, and 9 times out of 10 they will fall asleep; strong enough that you can give someone a trainquilizer and tell them it is a stimulant and the opposite will happen, strong enough that it can even change the outcome of an illness. Strong enough that there are still a large number of people out there who think glutamine is highly effective. If you market something well enough, even if the ingredients are inert, it will generate loads of positive feedback. It is unfortunate, that that is human nature. Do you really need a social psychology lesson here?

So here are the priorities I use I evaluate a supplement. If information isn't available I go on to the next option.

1. Meta-analyses of double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical studies published in peer-reviewed journals.
2. Double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical studies published in peer-reviewed journals.
3. Other placebo-controlled studies in humans.
4. Good animal and in vitro data.
5. Theoretical support based on known mechanisms.
6. Open studies.
7. User feedback.

Now you can choose to do two things. You can either listen to real science or you can discount it. Real science is how we know how certain drugs work and why you shouldn't combine them with other drugs, what the dangers are, and so on. It's how we know that many supplements/drugs do not fulfill their claims, even when there was a large amount of positive feedback. You often can't tell some things, like if your liver is failing, until it is too late. Which is why we don't rely solely on "feedback" when making claims about supplements. 



> I cannot tell you how many athletes from other companies (that sell similar fat burners) come to us for Liquid Clenbutrx. Some don't even call, they just come by our booth at the biggest shows and ask to buy Clenbutrx. When I ask them why the ydon't use their own stuff that they can get for free, they always reply, "Cause Clenbutrx works sooo much better."



This is the same stuff you hear from every supplement company. Anyone can say this. It means absolutely nothing.



> When I say step lightly I mean it seems so far that your main purpose in joining this board has been to...
> 
> 1- Bash VPX
> 2- Get beta testers for MRM
> ...



Bodybuilding.com is definitely not a place where you can do as you please. But that's beside the point. I am free to express my opinion. I really, really doubt there is anything you can do about me talking bad about VPX, as long as I am rational about it. I am, as you say, "contributing something useful."


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> You know what I find interesting, is that when VPX is dragged through the mud and gopro defends them he is chastised thoroughly for it.
> 
> If Avant was under attack does anyone think that the Avant people here wouldn't immediately form a lynching party.
> ...



At issue here is not defending a company.  At issue here is stating that a product is superior to another without any credible evidence.  I think everyone here knows GP works for VPX, I would hope he would defend them, but with a little more science and a little less spin.


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## David Tolson (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Products that don't "produce" do not resell.



I think my glutamine example disproves this.


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## David Tolson (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> However, despite what people say, there is nothing wrong with Cell Tech. Forget about how its advertised. It contains quality creatine, simple sugars, and ALA...a very effective mix for people looking to get stronger and put on weight quickly. Its market is really teens, athletes, and ectomorphs that have trouble adding size. There is nothing inherently wrong with Cell Tech and its not a scam product. It does the job it was intended to do.



I agree, sugar and creatine works. Something that has been known for quite some time. But you are ignoring some other aspects of the equation here:

*Is that advertising deceptive? Yes, incredibly so.
*Is it unjustifiably expensive? Yes. You can homebrew it for 1/3rd the price.

And these are the three fundamentals I think should go into a supplement buying decision: how good the product actually is, what you think of the company and their marketing tactics, and price.


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## David Tolson (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> You know what I find interesting, is that when VPX is dragged through the mud and gopro defends them he is chastised thoroughly for it.



I am really trying to avoid personal attacks, although you can never fully dissociate the message from the sender.


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## BruceWayNE (Apr 7, 2004)

I've only been here for a short amount of time, but it seems gopro is always under attack because of his affiliation and belief in vpx products. I found this board by typing in a search for some information on 1t and in the thread I found(the very first thread I've ever seen here) gopro was being attacked by a few members. I for one believe in vpx, know trainers who believe in vpx, and will continue to purchase from them as long as finances permit. So that may be why people like eggs and my self see it as more than an assault on vpx. This thread started out as an informative post on savings for a product that some people like. It wasn't a come on in and bash me thread. I know people have the freedom to give and share their thoughts and opinions, but spreading uncalled for negativity is immature in my opinion. Oh yeah cell tech worked wonders for me when I was just a 155lb skinny kid. Of course I've moved on to V12 because it's just as effective and cost less. Just


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## David Tolson (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> I like seeing the little "beta" pilot trials, they are pretty neat, but for any of them to hold water you would need to have an equal amount of placebo participants to compare the results to and come to an informed conclusion.



I definitely agree. Note that on my hieararchy open trials was pretty low, internet trials would be even lower. But it's still better than random feedback because at least it controls for a few of the major variables. And unfortunately very few volunteers come forward if you say there is going to be a placebo group.

Luckily, there are still quite a few supplements out there with clinical research.


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## gopro (Apr 7, 2004)

There is a handfull of individuals that bash VPX at every chance they get. It happens over and over, ad nauseum, and it is old, boring, and not worth me spending TOO much time on. My days are ridiculously busy and spending time on the message boards is but a tiny part.

I do not need to defend VPX in any way. Personally I don't really care what you or any of the other jealous haters think. I used VPX products long before coming to work here. I sold them in my gym. I used them with clients. ALL for one reason...because overall they produce better results than any other supplement line in existence (although there are many other very good companies out there).

I see the research. I see the testing. I see all that goes into each product that VPX turns out. If VPX fired me tomorrow I'd still use most of their products. Real world results mean more than any biased scientific study out there, and when I see something produce amazing results over and over and over, THAT is what convinces me something works, whether a supplement or kitchen cleaner.

I consider myself a trainer way before I consider myself a VPX employee. I still maintain a huge client base over the web and my job is to get people into the best shape of their lives...something I do not take lightly. I look to be in the best possible shape year around. Another thing I don't take lightly. And with all of my clients and with myself I use mostly VPX products. This was before Aug 2003 when I started working here, and it will stay that way as long as VPX keeps producing wonderful, useful products.

Some think out advertising is the best in the business. Some hate it. Some think our prices are too high. Most feel that its worth the price. It is your choice to use or not to use our products. Luckily enough people have used and continue to use VPX so that we keep growing and they can keep paying me the way they do. For every bash I hear about VPX I get 10 emails praising us. This tells me something.

Anyway, go ahead and say what you wish, but I know the facts, and they are simply that VPX puts out quality. That makes me quite comfortable in what I do, and very happy to recommend our products to family and friends b/c I know it will do them good.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 7, 2004)

I think all this would be moot if WE all saw the testing.  If you have good results in research, you should show them for all to see.  I have no doubt VPX gets results.  Considering how much they cost, I don't doubt they have their own trials.  I would figure with such a good advertising department they would capitalize on good results and publish them or at least make them known to the public.

By the way, I know Clenbutrx works, I have tried it.  I would never pay full price for it, but I think it is a good supplement.  not as good as say, micellean, but still pretty good.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> My, my, my, you are the conspiracy theorist.  Start a thread.  I guarantee that none of the sponsors pull anything, and several company reps that peruse the board would probably join in (myself included).
> 
> Also, most of the threads you are speaking of are legit posts by respected members of the board.  Others are legit posts by company reps (so long as they disclose thier affiliation, etc.).  There can be problems where company reps post as unbiased members, and that is shady, and fraudulent, in my opinion.  Every effort should be made to flush out and expose such persons.  Ultimately, Darwinism will reign, as exposing such trolls will do the company more harm then good.
> ...



wow, i got 3 my's from you on that one.  i feel special.  now i can sit at the front of the bus.
 

your comment about shady, fraudulent posts are exactly those of which i speak.  the every effort made to expose and flush out comment mirrors my own sentiments.

there is no overgeneralization made;  many companies do indeed pull their sponsorship of events/contests/boards when enough negative noise is made about their products or company itself. Or when it seems that they are not wanted or appreciated.   if suddenly someone were to start a thread about how , oh i dont know,  allthewhey protein powder sucks ( it doesn't ) and kept that particular thread going somehow, then i don't imagine that Prince would be thrilled
.  
hopefully such a thread would die a horrible death on it's own.  

As for the stupid ads, after a couple of comments about how bad they are, how the promises made in the ads don't reflect the reality, there would be little else to say.  
one of the stupidest ads i ever saw was for Twinlab Mass Fuel or whatever, it had Jim Quinn coming out of a space craft holding a bucket of the stuff.  so apparently taking the product makes you so freaky that you could be taken for an alien.  he was freaky looking though but the product had little if anything to do with it.  

so we seem to be in total agreement in principle.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by David Tolson *_
> Don't confuse negative advertisement and honesty. Keep in mind that BN/1fast does sell VPX products. The fact that I am willing to tell consumers what I actually think of the products rather than just pimping them should say something positive about the company, not negative. You will always get my honest opinion.



negative advertisement with honesty?  actually i was referring to your practice of negative commentary about VPX.  and i didn't in fact confuse that with honesty: quite the opposite.   Rather than make me think ill of the object of derision, it made me think LESS of the person posting.    which sadly was you...
 
But now, all is well,  i realize that it wasn't  a personal spat with gopro.  YOu have a beef with the company.  However, you would do well next time to rephrase your comments.  No one was defending gopro by the way.  We were commenting upon the inappropriateness of your post.  But enough on that.

FYI,  i knew immediately what you were getting at and agreed with the general thrust of your ironic commentary.  it just should have been directed elsewhere.  My posts on this board have been overwhelmingly AGAINST all the blatant shilling going on.  And the adverts are pretty stupid and lack creativity.  They are indeed, as you said, directed towards the uninformed and impulsive ( teenagers usually ).


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> Thanks, damn cold for the past few days.  Sore throat to boot.
> 
> Oh and the word Syntrax brings a thought to my mind.



thought?  ok,  i'll bite..
syntax?


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## Twin Peak (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> wow, i got 3 my's from you on that one.  i feel special.  now i can sit at the front of the bus.
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, I think we are in agreement.


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## David Tolson (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> I see the research. I see the testing. I see all that goes into each product that VPX turns out.



There are no way to verify any of these claims. They could be made by anyone. Without evidence they are meaningless.



> Real world results mean more than any biased scientific study out there



That is absurd. Are you saying that personal feedback is less biased than good science?

As I said this is an issue that will prove useless debating. I gave my reasons why one should listen to good science, people can take it or leave it.



> Some think out advertising is the best in the business.



If by "best," you mean sleaziest, and most effective at duping the unknowing, yes. Klein Becker being a close second. "Effective" advertising does not mean "good" advertising.

I don't see how someone who wrote the ad saying "Methyl-1-test has very few side effects" can go to sleep at night.



> Some think our prices are too high. Most feel that its worth the price.



Charge more, and people will think the product is better, even if it's exactly the same. That's basic psychology.

It's like expensive restaurants. You know what their secret is? _Smaller_ serving sizes. That way, the customers don't stuff themselves. The more you eat, the worse food tastes. Because people will only be eating while they are hungry they will think the food tasted better. It's good psychology. But it's a bad deal. The same goes for VPX products.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 7, 2004)

this is better than those threads involving "just a guy"..


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> Thanks, damn cold for the past few days.  Sore throat to boot.
> 
> Oh and the word Syntrax brings a thought to my mind.


although i responded to this earlier, i just now discovered what you are talking about.


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## Jodi (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> although i responded to this earlier, i just now discovered what you are talking about.


Took you long enough


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> 
> If Avant was under attack does anyone think that the Avant people here wouldn't immediately form a lynching party.



Lets find out...

AVANT PRODUCTS SUCK FARTS OUT OF DEAD CHICKENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> I think all this would be moot if WE all saw the testing.



Tests never put anything to rest.  It always ends up that the people that know the most multi-syllable words put their own spin on the results and things, and just like before, nobody knows shiat...just like at the beginning.  I get sick of all the cross examination bullshit personally.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 7, 2004)

You can't put spin on numbers and if you are doing good research no one should be able to shoot holes in it.  I agree with the multi-syllable words thing, though.  I have to constantly tell my boss to dumb things down so that the general public will understand what we are looking at.  I follow a general rule when reporting stuff, you should find the lowest level of education of your audience and describe stuff in a manner one step below that.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 7, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> You can't put spin on numbers and if you are doing good research no one should be able to shoot holes in it.


If that were true, 90% of the lawyers would be out of business. lol




> I agree with the multi-syllable words thing, though.  I have to constantly tell my boss to dumb things down so that the general public will understand what we are looking at.  I follow a general rule when reporting stuff, you should find the lowest level of education of your audience and describe stuff in a manner one step below that.


Good rule Dale.  Always keep things on the bottom shelf...where everyone can reach it.  If people have to impress "bottom shelfers" with the big words, they are suffering from some serious acceptance issues. lol


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## craig777 (Apr 8, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> Lets find out...
> 
> AVANT PRODUCTS SUCK FARTS OUT OF DEAD CHICKENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## craig777 (Apr 8, 2004)

I will add my .02 cents

I have tried numerous "Fat burners" and Clenbutrx far far surpasses any that I have tried.

but I looked at the deal on the VPX website "buy 3 get 4 free" for $197.00.

1fast400 sells 120cc for $34.99 so that deal is more like "buy 5 get 2 free".  It is still a deal but not as advertised.


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## Twin Peak (Apr 8, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> Lets find out...
> 
> AVANT PRODUCTS SUCK FARTS OUT OF DEAD CHICKENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



We are about to release a product that is, in fact, specifically designed to do just that.


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## gopro (Apr 8, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> I will add my .02 cents
> 
> I have tried numerous "Fat burners" and Clenbutrx far far surpasses any that I have tried.
> ...



For those that choose to buy directly from us (and EVERY company that sells direct charges full retail) that is a HUGE deal. For those that are aware of online wholesalers like 1fast, DPS, ProSource, 1supplement, etc, of course you know you can get it cheaper.

Any person that asks me in the gym or anywhere else where they should buy VPX learns quickly about these wholesalers as I would never have them go direct.


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## nikegurl (Apr 8, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> For those that choose to buy directly from us (and EVERY company that sells direct charges full retail) that is a HUGE deal. For those that are aware of online wholesalers like 1fast, DPS, ProSource, 1supplement, etc, of course you know you can get it cheaper.
> 
> Any person that asks me in the gym or anywhere else where they should buy VPX learns quickly about these wholesalers as I would never have them go direct.



  that way everyone wins.  consumer can buy it cheaper and vpx's wholesale customers get more business (which means they buy more product from vpx to replenish their stock)


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## craig777 (Apr 8, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by nikegurl *_
> that way everyone wins.  consumer can buy it cheaper and vpx's wholesale customers get more business (which means they buy more product from vpx to replenish their stock)




I love VPX products.


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## ZECH (Apr 8, 2004)

It's all about greed.......................


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## gopro (Apr 8, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> I love VPX products.



Thank goodness


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## gopro (Apr 8, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by nikegurl *_
> that way everyone wins.  consumer can buy it cheaper and vpx's wholesale customers get more business (which means they buy more product from vpx to replenish their stock)



Yup!


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## camarosuper6 (Apr 8, 2004)

Well, I thought Clenubrx was extremely powerful, and fast acting.

Thats about all I have to add to this topic.


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## tomas101 (Apr 8, 2004)

i like vpx..their mrp are damn good and my buddy loves the 1test and m1test better than any other companies m1test..but i only buy at whole never at retail


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## GAmuscle26 (Apr 8, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> I love VPX products.



I do too. VPX has customer service, at least from my experience.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> We are about to release a product that is, in fact, specifically designed to do just that.



 Let me know when it's out. lol


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## maze (Apr 11, 2004)

Where is the Clen???  

I preffer Liquid Clen ... from research chemicals.


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