# Weekly Body Fat Measurements



## gigaplex (Jul 13, 2009)

This question came up in another thread and I thought it would be interesting to explore.

If any of you follow Tom Venuto (see book list on this forum) then you have heard the case for weekly body fat measurements. Others may do this too but it is basically a mandatory thing on a BFFM diet and that is how I ran into the idea.

So here's how it's done:
1) This is only for use on a "normal" diet. No diet that drastically changes water weight or glycogen should be going on when doing this. It's okay if these things change drastically the first week but if it's on a continual basis then this method will not be a useful tool.
2) You are not looking to find your exact body fat %. You are only interested in the amount of change in your body fat % over time. So don't over concern yourself with the number, look at the change over time.
3) Get measured by the same person each week. This encourages consistency in measurements. And this is a big one too because different people can give very different measurements.
4) Measure at the same time on the same day each week. This is because things fluctuate slightly during the day and after different activities so doing it at the same time will further encourage consistency.
5) It helps if on the day you pick to do measurements, you have roughly the same level of activity, eating schedule, etc. each week. This promotes even more consistency.
6) Do not over-interpret the data. You should be looking at trends not week to week changes. If something is off for two or three weeks then you might adjust your diet accordingly but if something is off for just a week then you shouldn't jump to conclusions.

So that's how weekly body fat measurements are generally done at least in the Venuto circle. It can be very useful for recognizing when something goes wrong and diagnosing why and what to do about it. So to me, it's worth it. The more data I have at hand, the better decisions I can make about diet and training.


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## Marat (Jul 13, 2009)

What you listed does promote more accurate results than if you did not observe those rules. However, caliper measurements are still not accurate enough to use as a major factor in determining if you are successful in your endeavors on a week to week basis. Week to week changes are too small for a caliper to accurately pick up.


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## Built (Jul 13, 2009)

m11, you bring up an interesting poing. 

gigaplex, can you humour us and post up some of your own data? I'd be interested to see your particular application of them.


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## gigaplex (Jul 13, 2009)

m11 said:


> What you listed does promote more accurate results than if you did not observe those rules. However, caliper measurements are still not accurate enough to use as a major factor in determining if you are successful in your endeavors on a week to week basis. Week to week changes are too small for a caliper to accurately pick up.



Right, that's rule number 6 - do not over-interpret the data. So week to week is basically irrelevant but after 4, 6, 8 weeks, you should be seeing a trend.


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## gigaplex (Jul 13, 2009)

Yes.

I just uploaded here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tUHJf15wmRK8hdQ9-K7gP6A

Have at it


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## gigaplex (Jul 13, 2009)

It is a lot easier to see these things with charts but I have not used google docs until just a few minutes ago so I'll have to mess with that later.

A couple things to start off here. You can see a definite trend that indicates the diet is doing what it is supposed to. An example of when the trends would indicate a problem is near the end before I started doing calipers. I was getting too skinny for the rope and choke method to do me much good anymore. So it wasn't an actual problem with the diet but that is kind of what I would look for. The body fat % levels off there for enough weeks to consider it a trend while the weight keeps going down.

Really, I've been pretty lucky and things have worked out to where I haven't needed to make much modifications. But if there was a problem, the data would be there and I should see it. And I should be able to diagnose the problem better since I have this additional data. Even if I got the diagnosis wrong, at least I'd have that historical data to learn from.

If accuracy becomes a big deal for the caliper tests, I can always get a professional at my gym to do it. I like to do it myself because I am more reliable to get this done every week at the same time but most weeks I'd be able to get the same pro to do it at the same time.


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## gtbmed (Jul 13, 2009)

So you gained 9.5 lbs. of mass and lost .6 lbs. of bodyweight in 1 week?

Just from measurements?  I honestly don't understand the point of doing these measurements and going through all of this, it just doesn't seem worthwhile to me.


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## Marat (Jul 13, 2009)

gigaplex said:


> Right, that's rule number 6 - do not over-interpret the data. So week to week is basically irrelevant but after 4, 6, 8 weeks, you should be seeing a trend.




I agree. 

You also mentioned "You should be looking at trends not week to week changes." I, of course, agree with that too.

However, the title of the thread caused me to believe that we were talking about weekly body fat measurements. 


We are certainly in accordance regarding pinching yourself once or twice a month. I like to do it too just for kicks. However, if one week of a cut it says one percentage and then 7 days later the same number..or god forbid a higher number...I'm not going to go making adjustments. 

Come to think of it, even after a month I wouldn't really want to go by caliper readings as a primary method to determine diet/training effectiveness. [Conjecture warning for the next statement] : Which notch is being used on my pants belt  is _probably_ more accurate than a caliper reading from Venuto himself.


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## Marat (Jul 13, 2009)

Great work by the way on your progress. Keep up the consistency and hard work. You'll definitely reach your goal before you know it.


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## Built (Jul 13, 2009)

gigaplex said:


> It is a lot easier to see these things with charts but I have not used google docs until just a few minutes ago so I'll have to mess with that later.
> 
> A couple things to start off here. You can see a definite trend that indicates the diet is doing what it is supposed to. An example of when the trends would indicate a problem is near the end before I started doing calipers. I was getting too skinny for the rope and choke method to do me much good anymore. So it wasn't an actual problem with the diet but that is kind of what I would look for. The body fat % levels off there for enough weeks to consider it a trend while the weight keeps going down.
> 
> Really, I've been pretty lucky and things have worked out to where I haven't needed to make much modifications.


You've done well, but this hasn't been luck - you've been following a non-fucked protocol while significantly over-fat. Unless you did something truly stupid - for example, dieting on a protein sparing modified fast while doing boot-camp five days a week - you wouldn't lose lean mass and you'd put on a smidge of muscle. Any modest deficit with sufficient protein and compound lifts will do this. 

This isn't to understate your progress - you stuck to it and it paid off. 


gigaplex said:


> But if there was a problem, the data would be there and I should see it. And I should be able to diagnose the problem better since I have this additional data. Even if I got the diagnosis wrong, at least I'd have that historical data to learn from.


But what would you change? Furthermore, what if you changed something based on an incorrect conclusion? Week to week, the probability of making a type II error is very large here. Taken as a trend, your actions simply wouldn't be responsive enough: by the time you acted, it might be too late. 


gigaplex said:


> If accuracy becomes a big deal for the caliper tests, I can always get a professional at my gym to do it.


Don't kid yourself - I've had three pros test my bodyfat with calipers. One was kinda close, one was spot on (when I was 14%, he was VERY pleased with himself!), and one pegged me at 26% bodyfat when I was DEXA'd at 16.5% the very next day. 

I just laughed at this last one. She was at the extremely overpriced Steve Nash gym in downtown Vancouver no less, and competed in figure. 



gigaplex said:


> I like to do it myself because I am more reliable to get this done every week at the same time but most weeks I'd be able to get the same pro to do it at the same time.





gtbmed said:


> So you gained 9.5 lbs. of mass and lost .6 lbs. of bodyweight in 1 week?
> 
> Just from measurements?  I honestly don't understand the point of doing these measurements and going through all of this, it just doesn't seem worthwhile to me.



Now I think we all realize that gigaplex didn't truly believe he gained that much muscle in a week, but it does illustrate the problem - what if it went the other way? What if gig actually lost this much muscle according to the calipers? How would he know what to change on this basis? 



m11 said:


> I agree.
> 
> You also mentioned "You should be looking at trends not week to week changes." I, of course, agree with that too.
> 
> ...


Bingo. 


m11 said:


> Come to think of it, even after a month I wouldn't really want to go by caliper readings as a primary method to determine diet/training effectiveness. [Conjecture warning for the next statement] : Which notch is being used on my pants belt  is _probably_ more accurate than a caliper reading from Venuto himself.



Ultimately, this is what it all comes down to. 

Listen, gplex, if you find it helps you keep yourself focused by taking these measurements, go for it. 

You started out quite fat and are now at serious risk of seeing abs. This is a very cool time for you and you deserve to enjoy it. 

Do keep in mind that the method you employed to get from "obese" to "normal weight" might not be quite as satisfying as you navigate the waters from "normal weight" to "ripped". You might want to consider a game plan for when you start losing muscle - which you will either notice from your caliper readings, or from how you look, or from your lifts, or even from how you feel. 

Do you have one? Do you know what you will do when you start dropping muscle?


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## Yanick (Jul 14, 2009)

Too much structure/stress for me to be a lab experiment. I did it way back when, when I started dieting and tracking and such. All the forum guru's were spewing the AccuMeasure calipers for progress tracking and I bought a pair and pinched myself endlessly. It just became so much of a hassle and probably led to a greater stress response than the diet itself.

I now take it easy, don't overly analyze my diet (its a diet, not a cross-over, double blind, placebo research study) and just go by the scale, strength levels, clothes fit and the mirror. Gives me enough subjective and objective data to make informed decisions.


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## gigaplex (Jul 14, 2009)

m11 said:


> I agree.
> 
> You also mentioned "You should be looking at trends not week to week changes." I, of course, agree with that too.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I wouldn't either. After maybe about 4 weeks it starts meaning something to me. And this is part of it too: learning how much variance you have in your measurements so that you can interpret the data correctly. If someone was really, really good at doing body fat measurements or maybe they did hydrostatic weekly then they would be able to draw conclusions from smaller amounts of data. So I guess another reason for doing these weekly is so you get better and better at doing consistent measurements.



m11 said:


> Come to think of it, even after a month I wouldn't really want to go by caliper readings as a primary method to determine diet/training effectiveness. [Conjecture warning for the next statement] : Which notch is being used on my pants belt  is _probably_ more accurate than a caliper reading from Venuto himself.



lol. Well maybe I should add a column to the spread sheet called "Belt Notch".


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## gigaplex (Jul 14, 2009)

m11 said:


> Great work by the way on your progress. Keep up the consistency and hard work. You'll definitely reach your goal before you know it.



Thanks


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## Built (Jul 14, 2009)

gigaplex said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't either. After maybe about 4 weeks it starts meaning something to me. And this is part of it too: learning how much variance you have in your measurements so that you can interpret the data correctly. If someone was really, really good at doing body fat measurements or maybe they did hydrostatic weekly then they would be able to draw conclusions from smaller amounts of data.


How would you act upon these data?


gigaplex said:


> So I guess another reason for doing these weekly is so you get better and better at doing consistent measurements.


For what purpose? You appear to be more interested in tracking the variation than acting upon it. How and when would you react to a reading you didn't like?


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## gigaplex (Jul 14, 2009)

Built said:


> Week to week, the probability of making a type II error is very large here. Taken as a trend, your actions simply wouldn't be responsive enough: by the time you acted, it might be too late.



First off, nobody is saying that this should be looked at on a week to week basis. I have been accused of this endlessly despite me pointing out time and time again that I do not do this or advocate it and never did do this. So why? Why continue with that. Everyone here knows that that would be misinterpreting the data. I even mentioned it in the initial post of this thread as well as other threads.

Secondly, too late? Too late for what? Like you'll be stuck permanently fat forever? Man would that suck! Seriously though, if there is a problem, it seems better to know about it after a few weeks than to keep going forward not knowing about it. There are of course other ways that you may even detect it sooner and if that's the case then you still have that data there for historical purposes and can have verification that you have changed the diet correctly.



Built said:


> Don't kid yourself - I've had three pros test my bodyfat with calipers. One was kinda close, one was spot on (when I was 14%, he was VERY pleased with himself!), and one pegged me at 26% bodyfat when I was DEXA'd at 16.5% the very next day.



So again, you assume I'm oblivious. Ugh, it is getting tiring. The truth is I know exactly what you're talking about. I have seen the same variance as well. Some know what they are doing and others don't. It's a good point to bring up. It can make for an awkward situation too like if you're getting the measurement done by someone for a few weeks and then you have to be like, uh yeah, so I'm going to have one of your co-workers do this instead... yeah.



Built said:


> Now I think we all realize that gigaplex didn't truly believe he gained that much muscle in a week, but it does illustrate the problem - what if it went the other way? What if gig actually lost this much muscle according to the calipers? How would he know what to change on this basis?



If it had said that I lost all that muscle, it would not really be enough data to act on. I would have to get additional data. I don't look at week to week, I look at trends. You also have to take into consideration that the way body fat was measured changed at that point so you would expect to probably see a difference. It wasn't like it was some big surprise.



Built said:


> Do keep in mind that the method you employed to get from "obese" to "normal weight" might not be quite as satisfying as you navigate the waters from "normal weight" to "ripped". You might want to consider a game plan for when you start losing muscle - which you will either notice from your caliper readings, or from how you look, or from your lifts, or even from how you feel.
> 
> Do you have one? Do you know what you will do when you start dropping muscle?



Yes, but that's going to be a VERY long answer. I'll tell you what. I have nearly all the information I know about diet and nutrition stored in this huge document where I take notes and stuff. I will try and get it online for everyone to see tonight. Then we can all analyze it to death. Should be fun


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## Built (Jul 14, 2009)

No need. Just outline the plan if you notice you're dropping muscle. What will you do first?


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## jbish8 (Jul 14, 2009)

Hey Gigaplex,
Congrats on the success. It's good to hear from a fellow BFFM'er. I've been using Tom's program for a couple years now and have gotten good results and believe that at least for me, it is the best diet for long term overall health and fitness.
 As far as measuring BF% each week, here's my thinking: For Tom's program, which is really geared towards people who are cutting on a diet that keeps macro ratios consistent and training/activity volume consistent, as long as you measure at the same time of day/week, same way, in the same site/s than I believe you can get some pretty accurate results with the accumeasure for determining what your BF is doing, however not necessarily actual BF% as moving 1/2" along the illiac crest either way can greatly affect your measurement. This is why it is crucial to measure at the EXACT same spot each time.
I do think that as long as you have the right attitude towards the results ie:
That they are for trends, that they aren't EXACT, and that changes in diet and activity can affect hydration and glycogen storage then I believe they can be a great tool for motivation as well as information on when something has stalled or is not working anymore, which is why the "it's too late" argument doesn't really work IMO. It may be too late to stop the stall from happening, but you will know sooner that it has and can start to work to resolve the problem. It sounds as though you have this attitude and it certainly seems to be working for you so I say keep doing what your doing regardless of what anyone else thinks. I personally track my BF% weekly as well but definitely don't believe that it was the make or break it tool to my success. Anyone who uses the argument that it's a waste of time is ignorant as most everyone on here do things to track and log and document that take take much longer (BF testing takes less than a minute) and are only tools to help not a requirement for success.
As far as Built's advice is concerned, I would not be offended to her method of telling you what to be careful of, rather listen and learn. You obviously don't have to do everything she's suggesting, but she has helped me and my wife out and given us some really solid tips and advice that we have used and are working quite well. I personally started losing LBM using the BFFM program when I started to try to get lower than 10% which is common.
Tom doesn't teach much in the area of training and there are some critical things you can do to avoid muscle loss when reaching the lower BF ranges. Built definitely knows her stuff in this area IMO and it sounds like shes trying to help you.
Also I may be able to help you get a more accurate reading as to what your true BF% is if your interested. The accumeasure instructions are somewhat vague and I have used some trial and error tests along with some comparison testing with the Bod pod DEXA and accumeasure and so far my last 3 readings on all 3 have been within 1% of each other on my wife and I.
Keep in mind the leaner you get the more accurate your readings will be if done correctly.


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## gigaplex (Jul 14, 2009)

jbish8 said:


> Hey Gigaplex,
> Congrats on the success. It's good to hear from a fellow BFFM'er. I've been using Tom's program for a couple years now and have gotten good results and believe that at least for me, it is the best diet for long term overall health and fitness.



Thanks! I knew there had to be someone else here  I looked at a lot of different forums before this one and was disappointed with all them. I happened to see BFFM was in the book list here and decided to join basically just based on that. I was at that BFFM inner circle forum before this but I just can't see paying for a forum anymore. You get extremely good advice there but I'd rather use it just for tough questions then and not have to pay every single month.



jbish8 said:


> As far as measuring BF% each week, here's my thinking: For Tom's program, which is really geared towards people who are cutting on a diet that keeps macro ratios consistent and training/activity volume consistent, as long as you measure at the same time of day/week, same way, in the same site/s than I believe you can get some pretty accurate results with the accumeasure for determining what your BF is doing, however not necessarily actual BF% as moving 1/2" along the illiac crest either way can greatly affect your measurement. This is why it is crucial to measure at the EXACT same spot each time.



Yeah, it seems to be a skill. I don't think people just pick up the calipers and get awesome readings right off the bat. So I do need to get a bit better at it and I will in time.



jbish8 said:


> I say keep doing what your doing regardless of what anyone else thinks.


That's the plan.




jbish8 said:


> As far as Built's advice is concerned, I would not be offended to her method of telling you what to be careful of, rather listen and learn. You obviously don't have to do everything she's suggesting, but she has helped me and my wife out and given us some really solid tips and advice that we have used and are working quite well. I personally started losing LBM using the BFFM program when I started to try to get lower than 10% which is common.
> Tom doesn't teach much in the area of training and there are some critical things you can do to avoid muscle loss when reaching the lower BF ranges. Built definitely knows her stuff in this area IMO and it sounds like shes trying to help you.



Yeah, I know that I may run into the same issue. I was kind of anticipating it and so one of the things I was looking into when I first entered the forum was HIIT. My plan right now on what to do first is basically just all the stuff BFFM talks about. So I would look at all the things I could do to improve on my diet:
eating more of the calories earlier in the day and tapering off
switching all carbs to fibrous later in the day
move up to 6 meals instead of 5
swicth to HIIT for cardio (this is actually what I was investigating when I first entered the forum)
start getting more sleep (i get like 5 hours a night)
drop fruit from the diet except for right after a workout
there are some carbs I eat that could be better so I might switch them out
switch up weight lifting routine

And then I'd pick the ones that were the most relevent. HIIT would probably be the first thing I'd do. I might go back to maintenance to try and fix my metabolism if I thought that might be the issue (depends on other factors). I'd have to look through my notes (they are at home) on the other things to see which one applies best and maybe some of those wouldn't and there may be other things I could do as well. I've got a lot of this stuff written out in my notes (which is like 50 pages long) and so I'd just be going through that.There are obviously other factors besides just whether or not I am losing LBM like what kind of training is being done when this happens, how low was my deficit, etc., etc. So although I have a plan, I do agree that it could be changed or improved.

I guess the nice thing about my method is that I will know when I am losing LBM rather than continue on causing additional damage. Since it is basically inevitable that at some point I will reach that (you can't lose fat forever) it just seems like a vital thing to do these measurements.



jbish8 said:


> Also I may be able to help you get a more accurate reading as to what your true BF% is if your interested. The accumeasure instructions are somewhat vague and I have used some trial and error tests along with some comparison testing with the Bod pod DEXA and accumeasure and so far my last 3 readings on all 3 have been within 1% of each other on my wife and I.
> Keep in mind the leaner you get the more accurate your readings will be if done correctly.



That would be awesome! I did get the accumeasure with the click thing so it should be the same. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

The instructions DO suck. However, I think I am closer using the calipers to my true BF% and man was it a relief to know that the diet wasn't stalling. When the body fat percentage leveled off like that, I kept getting leaner and then I started looking at pics online of people at different body fat percentages and it was not matching up so I switched to calipers and I am pretty confident that was the issue as I look like pictures of others at that BF% so I think I was apparently losing fat that whole time. If I had to do it again I would probably start doing both measurements much earlier and then eventually phasing out rope and choke.


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## Built (Jul 14, 2009)

gigaplex said:


> Yeah, I know that I may run into the same issue. I was kind of anticipating it and so one of the things I was looking into when I first entered the forum was HIIT. My plan right now on what to do first is basically just all the stuff BFFM talks about. So I would look at all the things I could do to improve on my diet:
> eating more of the calories earlier in the day and tapering off
> switching all carbs to fibrous later in the day
> move up to 6 meals instead of 5
> ...



A few questions.


Why would you want to eat more calories earlier in the day and taper them off later?
Why would you want to switch your carbs to fbrous ones later in the day?
Why would you want to eat MORE meals while cutting?
Why drop fruit?
Which are the "better" carbs? 
In what way would you change your workouts?


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## Yanick (Jul 14, 2009)

I have a better question. How long have you been training and/or dieting seriously (we'll define serious as what you are doing now)?


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## danzik17 (Jul 14, 2009)

gigaplex - There is one big thing that I really think some people don't understand here (possibly yourself included)

Venuto's program and BFFM is a GREAT starting point for people who are just beginning and need that strict step by step "DO THIS" approach.

I used to be the same way and just as you are right now and would only ever eat "clean" carbs, 6 meals every 3 hours on the minute, etc.

I compare this to being a musician.  You practice and learn the sheetmusic for a long time, but then you master it and no longer need that.

Dieting is no different.  A lot of people (myself included) NEEDED that absurdly strict set up because it gave a measure of consistency and comfort.  After a while, you learn WHY those techniques worked so you are no longer bound by Venuto's or anyone's rules and can make a diet that is right for you.


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## jbish8 (Jul 14, 2009)

gigaplex said:


> Yeah, it seems to be a skill. I don't think people just pick up the calipers and get awesome readings right off the bat. So I do need to get a bit better at it and I will in time.
> *I also think learning what your body looks and feels like at different BF%'s is key and will come with time and body part measurements are also a great barometer. I check these 1 a month just to double check with my BF readings.*
> 
> 
> ...


OK.. so my biggest problem with the instructions is that, where is the illiac crest REALLY. Like I said it doesn't really matter for a barometer as long as you do it in the same site each time, but why not try to get as accurate as possible to actual BF while you're at it. Keep in mind I've only used 2 subjects (myself and wife) with this method to check accuracy but so far it's really close (within 1% of dexa) everytime (3 times). Here's what you do:

1. mark with a pen along the illiac crest (this is top of your hip bone starting at where the bony nub towards the front sticks out, obviously I'm not an MD.)
2. Find the point where the front of your arm meets your torso and use a plumb bob or level (I am a contractor) to find where this vertical line (this is called the anterior axillary line) intersects the mark on your illiac crest. 
3. One inch above this intersection is where the measurement should be taken. Try that and then test it against a DEXA. I bet you'll be really close.
4. Also I always measure on Monday morning, after my only complete rest day on sunday so as to be as normal hydration/glocogen wise as possible.

Good job, and keep it up.


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## jbish8 (Jul 14, 2009)

danzik17 said:


> gigaplex - There is one big thing that I really think some people don't understand here (possibly yourself included)
> 
> Venuto's program and BFFM is a GREAT starting point for people who are just beginning and need that strict step by step "DO THIS" approach.
> 
> ...



I *totally* agree with this. I myself am learning that I can still get great results without being so anal, however I don't think that means Gig should stop doing what he's doing rather just realize it may get easier in the future.
Also Gig here's a link to a thread where Built helped me that may be of use to you.http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/diet-nutrition/100492-help-please.html


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## Yanick (Jul 14, 2009)

danzik17 said:


> gigaplex - There is one big thing that I really think some people don't understand here (possibly yourself included)
> 
> Venuto's program and BFFM is a GREAT starting point for people who are just beginning and need that strict step by step "DO THIS" approach.
> 
> ...



Took the words right out of my mouth.


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## gigaplex (Jul 14, 2009)

danzik17 said:


> gigaplex - There is one big thing that I really think some people don't understand here (possibly yourself included)
> 
> Venuto's program and BFFM is a GREAT starting point for people who are just beginning and need that strict step by step "DO THIS" approach.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I was pretty strict in the beginning too. I have loosened it up a bit though. BFFM shows the some of the cleanest and safest routes but you'd go crazy trying to do the "perfect" diet forever.


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## gigaplex (Jul 14, 2009)

jbish8 said:


> This is where I feel the BFFM program comes up short in trying to get to sub 10% levels, however in fairness to the program, before I explain why, I should note that I haven't actually carried out any of the theories I'm going to mention so who knows, it could just be me. Tom suggests upping the amount of cardio as you get to the lower levels but doesn't really get into the details of how or why or when. He also doesn't really address the training protocols when reaching these levels. This in my opinion was at least for me the main reason that I lost LBM when going sub 10%. After Built helped me and researching many others situations on this and other forums I have decided that my problem has been far to much volume in both resistance training and cardio type activities (I don't specifically do cardio, but I would up my mountain/road biking and sporting activities during my cutting). I felt like I had to always progress to get lower and lower so that I ended up in the gym way too long and my workouts were way to high in volume. I did reach my goal BF% but at the expense of some precious LBM. IMO it is much harder to gain LBM than to lose BF so hang on to you LBM for dear life. I've tried all the tecniques you mention above with varying levels of success (still always lost LBM) but the one constant was my training, so this next cut (I'm currently bulking) I will be trying some suggestion built gave me to see if it will help. Sorry about the book, but bottom line, training is much more important than I feel BFFM leads you to believe, or at least should give more direction on and needs to be planned carefully.



Yeah on the inner circle forum (Venuto's pay forum) the question would come up a lot: How do I lose that last couple percent? When I was on the forum I never really zoned in on those posts because it seemed like it would be ages before I would be at that point. Wish I would have read them now. So I figured it was likely going to be an issue since everyone was asking.

I'm going to read through your thread but one thing I am definitely curious about is your cardio. Was this more like steady state type cardio or HIIT? I know you say it's not like you're specifically doing cardio but if you had to categorize it, what would you call it? One of the biggest things that worries me about that last couple percent and LBM loss is the cardio. It just seems like it would be an obvious culprit so I am looking into that now.

Thanks for the tips about the caliper - that will definitely help.


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## Built (Jul 14, 2009)

gigaplex, the trick at the end comes down to coaxing your body to release a little fat instead of a lot of muscle: recall that a pound of fat holds 3500 calories. A pound of muscle, if it's anything like lean beef or lean bison, holds maybe 500-600 calories. You can lose weight FAST if you drop muscle!

The daredevils article in my sig outlines how a catecholamine release can tip the balance when you get to this point - based on research out of the Netherlands, Lyle McDonald's ideas and various supplementation options. 

In short, it's a two-step process: 
1. release free fatty acids so your muscles have an easy source of fuel for when you later...
2. burn them off with steady state cardio

But there's a bit more to it than this.


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## jbish8 (Jul 14, 2009)

gigaplex said:


> I'm going to read through your thread but one thing I am definitely curious about is your cardio. Was this more like steady state type cardio or HIIT? I know you say it's not like you're specifically doing cardio but if you had to categorize it, what would you call it? One of the biggest things that worries me about that last couple percent and LBM loss is the cardio. It just seems like it would be an obvious culprit so I am looking into that now.


When I rode on the road, which I did at least once a week,  I always rode a 40 mile loop with a 4000' climb. The climb itself took an hour, so I was on my bike total about 1 1/2 hours. I was always trying to beat my previous time so I was always pushing as hard as I could. If I remember right, it seems my average heart rate for the entire trip was always in the range of 165-170 BPM and the highest it would get was around 180. My max. heart rate is 191, so that should give you an idea. I also rode a couple of different routes in the mountains 2 times per week that would take about 45 min. each. These I considered my HIIT as there would be really steep climbs followed by downhills to recover. My heart rate would average in the 150's but I would usually get into the high 180's on some of the climbs. I always played alot of sand V-ball and raquetball and tennis as well. Too much now that I look back, but it sure was fun and I was in some really good shape cardiovascular wise.


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## gigaplex (Jul 15, 2009)

Built said:


> gigaplex, the trick at the end comes down to coaxing your body to release a little fat instead of a lot of muscle: recall that a pound of fat holds 3500 calories. A pound of muscle, if it's anything like lean beef or lean bison, holds maybe 500-600 calories. You can lose weight FAST if you drop muscle!
> 
> The daredevils article in my sig outlines how a catecholamine release can tip the balance when you get to this point - based on research out of the Netherlands, Lyle McDonald's ideas and various supplementation options.
> 
> ...



I have to admit I am initially quite skeptical of Lyle mostly because of the huge deficit he recommends for PSMF. I will admit that it sounds the most logical of any crash diet I've seen but I am just automatically skeptical of anyone recommending that kind of a deficit.

Of course if you couldn't tell I have a pretty healthy dose of skepticism about most new information I encounter  Doesn't mean I will ignore it though so I will take a look at the link. Thanks.


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## Marat (Jul 15, 2009)

I'd recommend reading Lyle's books. Here's a podcast that P-funk did with him. It's an interesting listen and should give you a decent perspective on his approach.

Podcast #4 – Lyle McDonald « Reality-Based Fitness


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## jbish8 (Jul 15, 2009)

gigaplex said:


> I have to admit I am initially quite skeptical of Lyle mostly because of the huge deficit he recommends for PSMF. I will admit that it sounds the most logical of any crash diet I've seen but I am just automatically skeptical of anyone recommending that kind of a deficit.
> 
> Of course if you couldn't tell I have a pretty healthy dose of skepticism about most new information I encounter  Doesn't mean I will ignore it though so I will take a look at the link. Thanks.



Don't mean to keep butting in here, but you seem to have some similar beliefs that I had when I came to this forum and I figure I can help by telling you what I've learned here and possibly easing some of your doubts in the process. Keep in mind, these are my opinions only and what I believe and I'm not stating them as facts.

1. Everyone has their guru.
You will find that Lyle Mcdonald's methods are highly praised here, and rightfully so most likely. I've yet to try any of his diets (I plan to though), but I also haven't heard any complaints from anyone who has.

2. What works for one does not mean it works for another.
I had no problem using Venuto's plan to reach my goals, but my wife was a different story. I was completely baffled as to why it was so hard for her to do what was so easy for me, and chalked it up to me just having more determination. Not so. Simply changing up the macro's while cutting has made it so much easier for her to now do what I was able to do. (She's alot funner to be around too I might add).

3. Both diets are good.
Whithout Venuto's program, I would not have become as aware nor organized about my diet. Because of this, I feel I easily got every penny I paid for his book. As I said before, his plan in general is one I will adopt for my long term health and fitness. I do however think it's just a starting point and that there are many details that just by way of practicality must be omitted (the book is already 300+ pages).

Lyle's Programs seem more extreme but they are also geared towards specific people with specific goals and so in my mind they are temporary. 
Nothing wrong with that if you already have the basics of a healthy diet down first and realize that it is your basis. I've only actually read one of his books UD2.0 because it's the one that most applied to my situation, but I think I know the general idea of his others. I do plan on reading them as well if for nothing more than curiosity. I was very impressed with the book I read and it makes sense and he backs it up with years of research and science.

4. Best way to find what works is to try it.
Lot's of diets look good on paper but since everyones different, it's virtually impossible to find a blanket diet to work for everyone. Educated trial and error (and documenting) are the best way to figure what works for you. If it makes sense and is not dangerous I'm willing to give it a go.

5. I have alot to learn.
After reading Tom's book, I felt like I knew all the answers to the dieting universe. Boy was I wrong. I realize I haven't even scratched the surface, but I'm having fun learning more and more each day, especially when you try something new and it works.


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## Built (Jul 15, 2009)

jbish8 said:


> 2. What works for one does not mean it works for another.
> I had no problem using Venuto's plan to reach my goals, but my wife was a different story. I was completely baffled as to why it was so hard for her to do what was so easy for me, and chalked it up to me just having more determination. Not so. Simply changing up the macro's while cutting has made it so much easier for her to now do what I was able to do. (She's alot funner to be around too I might add).



I'm so glad she's more comfortable! She must have been SO FRUSTRATED! I remember how I felt trying to diet and train like this. It was impossibly uncomfortable to maintain. I just couldn't do it. (The fact that others COULD did nothing for my morale, lemme tell you!)


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## jbish8 (Jul 15, 2009)

Built said:


> I'm so glad she's more comfortable! She must have been SO FRUSTRATED! I remember how I felt trying to diet and train like this. It was impossibly uncomfortable to maintain. I just couldn't do it. (The fact that others COULD did nothing for my morale, lemme tell you!)


Thanks alot Built. She's doing awesome and she's very excited as she is starting to see the definition in her legs and the booty is getting tighter. She's lost 6lbs with hardly any LBM loss. She's gone from 18% to 15% BF and is finally getting the form down on squats (thanks to the goblets). We both are doing variations of your BGB and are both responding very well even though I'm bulking and she's cutting. Thanks again for all your help.


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## Built (Jul 15, 2009)

My pleasure.


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## danzik17 (Jul 15, 2009)

jbish8 said:


> Thanks alot Built. She's doing awesome and she's very excited as she is starting to see the definition in her legs and the booty is getting tighter. She's lost 6lbs with hardly any LBM loss. *She's gone from 18% to 15% BF* and is finally getting the form down on squats (thanks to the goblets). We both are doing variations of your BGB and are both responding very well even though I'm bulking and she's cutting. Thanks again for all your help.



Pics or it didn't happen!


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## jbish8 (Jul 15, 2009)

danzik17 said:


> Pics or it didn't happen!


I only have a before picture cause' she won't let me take another one till she reaches her goal of 13%. This was at our backyard pool party with some of her friends. She's the one in the hot pink on the right. She measured 18% the morning before this. We used a bioimpedic scale so it could be a little off, but I pride myself on being a good judge of BF% just by look, especially on women, and I'd have to say it was pretty spot on. Enjoy!


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## danzik17 (Jul 15, 2009)

Oh man, can you hook me up with the hottie in green?


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## gigaplex (Jul 15, 2009)

Hmmm. Are you sure it didn't read 18% lean instead? Easy to confuse the two


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## jbish8 (Aug 1, 2009)

Ok, so here are the real progress pics of the wife. I thought Built may be interested to see how well she's progressing. She still has another few lbs. to go but she's really excited at how good she's done so far.

So this her about a month ago on left and now on right







She is flexing her back in the after and not in the before but it's the lower half that I think has the biggest change anyways. Any guesses as to her BF in these shots. Here's another back and leg shot.


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## Built (Aug 1, 2009)

Holy cow, she looks HOT!

Bodyfat - hmmm, high teens maybe? It's harder to tell on her than on me because she doesn't carry as much in the lower as I do. 

Tell her I hate her. That'll tell her what she needs to hear.


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## Marat (Aug 1, 2009)

Wow. She certainly deserves being excited. She's doing an excellent job.


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## Built (Aug 1, 2009)

jbish8 said:


> Ok, so here are the real progress pics of the wife. I thought Built may be interested to see how well she's progressing. She still has another few lbs. to go but she's really excited at how good she's done so far.
> 
> So this her about a month ago on left and now on right
> 
> ...



Just having another look here. Maybe 16-17%, which is to say lean - most gymrats have a skewed perception of what lean is. I'm 14% in my avatar and profile pix and although they don't show up in the pix, I had veins around my navel. 

17% on a woman is LEAN. 

Her butt and outer thighs have noticeably leaned out. How much weight difference in that month, jbish8?

What were her average macros before she switched gears, and what are they now?


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## jbish8 (Aug 1, 2009)

She's lost 6-7 lbs. this month. Her macros were based on %'s before at about p-30, carbs-50, fat-20 so that would be 108g/181g/32g eating approx. 1450 cals per day. For the month, she's been eating about the same grams in protein, but we pretty much doubled her fats and the rest is carbs, plus she's been making sure to get her 25 g of fiber in those carbs. She says it makes her much more comfortable but it did take about a week to adjust to the energy loss. Now she feels great. It also took some figuring on how to find the right meals to work with more fats and less carbs.


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## Built (Aug 1, 2009)

I am SO glad to read this - not just because I was right (I love being right. LOL!) but because she's feeling better - nobody deserves to feel THAT uncomfortable while dieting. 

Plus she looks awesome!


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## jbish8 (Aug 2, 2009)

Yep. Ya done good. She's only got about 4-5 lbs left to reach her goal, but I have a feeling these last lbs. are gonna be tough. My strategy for the next few weeks is to have her drop off another 150 or so cals per day and lower the volume a bit on her resistance work but keep the weight heavy. Should I have her do more cardio? She's been doing it after workouts for 20 min like you prescribed and sometimes on rest days, but she misses sometimes so she really does it 3- 4 times per week. Any tips for losing the last bit?


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## Built (Aug 2, 2009)

jbish8 - good call. 

Have her read "daredevils", in my sig. She may find it helpful to drop VERY low (basically PSMF) on the off days so she has enough food on lifting days, and on the very low days, she can try up to two hours (in total, it need not all be at once) of low-intensity cardio (read: walking) over the course of the day for an additional deficit that seems to fly under the radar of appetite - in fact, walking seems to help settle down appetite for many of us while we endure the subtle starvation of those last five pounds.


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## jbish8 (Aug 2, 2009)

Built said:


> jbish8 - good call.
> 
> Have her read "daredevils", in my sig. She may find it helpful to drop VERY low (basically PSMF) on the off days so she has enough food on lifting days, and on the very low days, she can try up to two hours (in total, it need not all be at once) of low-intensity cardio (read: walking) over the course of the day for an additional deficit that seems to fly under the radar of appetite - in fact, walking seems to help settle down appetite for many of us while we endure the subtle starvation of those last five pounds.


Sounds good. we will try it and keep you posted.


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## DocHoliday (Aug 18, 2009)

Use a Tanita Bodyfat scale that also measure hydration level.  Do first thing in morn after taking a leak.  Use spray bottle of water and spray water on each metal pad before stepping on it.  Record your weight, % BF, and % water, along with the date.  Very informative!


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## Marat (Aug 18, 2009)

DocHoliday said:


> Very informative!



...and inaccurate.


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