# Circuit training vs. Running



## Tiroof! (Jun 28, 2011)

Yooo,

New to the forums not new to gym related awesomeness.

Question: For fat burn what would be more effective Circuit or running? Ive been running for a while now and have come to hate it. The boredom....not even FFDP can cure. Im wondering if Citrcuit training is indeed more effective:
A) Your heart rate is not as high
B) it lasts only 20 mins
C) Havent seen any Empirical evidence to say it is!

Comments, suggestions, personal story's would help.

TIROOF!


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## carmineb (Jun 29, 2011)

I have been told that to really lose weight, it isnt the weight you lose while doing cardio that is the significant part of weight loss, raher it is the circuit type training programs that altho shorter in length, increase, speed up your metabolism for up to 48 hours.  It was told me that it is like a car that speeds 1 mile then stops and shuts off engine and the other one drives a mile and idles teh car for 48 hours.  who uses up more gas?  the inefficent speeder or the guy who idles for 48 hours?

now, my personal story from way back...  I always did HIIT  (high intensity interval training) if I did anything you would call cardio .  It was always my understanding that weight training you use more energy than cardio cuz one is anerobic and one is aerobic.....  And I sued to always go with that.....  So I used to do a power workout each week for bodyparts and a lighter pump it up fast paced workout later that week for same body part and in the past, just using those two things and taking nothing more than protein, vit c vit bs , etc...  I used to be able to lose weight almost daily at least weekly from MOnday to Monday.  Adn I used to compare it to my cousins who used to do 45 minute cardios daily and spent tons of time in teh guy doing their power routines, i think my second workout each week trumped all their cardio to be honest....

Recently, I have started some form of circuit training once a week in lieu of cardio which is always HIIT for me, I cant walk on a treadmill for 45 minutes dailoy and then only see the equivalent of a donut of caloeries come off, I'd rather not eat the donut and choose that course of action....

some people do however say that weight training forces fat to go into the bloodstream and if it isnt all used up, it get redeposited in places again.  That might be so but the action of forcing fat into the bloodstream for energy to then redeposit it, isnt that  costing the body energy to do anyway?  so it must be why people do cardio for 30 minutes after weight training, to spend down the fat in bloodstream, sort of like leaving your cell phone on to draw down the battery til it dies.

All the new programs I see online ANd in eh gym ALL use a form of circuit training wtih plyometrics cuz it shreads you....  Could be just a gimmick but tons of testimonials swear it works.


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## Tiroof! (Jun 29, 2011)

Makes sense. Now you used to do HIIT's then at one time switched to Circuit and you saw increased results?


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## To_The_Top (Jun 29, 2011)

I have been training hard for about 8 years now and have tried many times to run and actually enjoy it. I have tried everything including full blown marathon training regimens but just simply cannot gain any interest or motivation in the exercise. To make up for the lack of running in my training I have integrated supersets and other intensity increases in my lifts. I manage to keep my heartrate up and the sweat pouring. This method is not bullet proof.. I am able to maintain at about 9% body fat at about 182. This is great for maintenance but when i want that good summer cut, I have to step up the cardio.


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## sosc (Jun 29, 2011)

The bulk of the literature I have seen on this topic does not
differentiate between activities, but instead focuses on the
need of a sustained high rate rate. 

Almost any activity can be made more strenuous. Some activity
have limits to their potential however. Check out these projections
from Mayo Clinic. For example, I can't think of a way to make golfing
challenging but most have some way.

If you are running then add sprint intervals every 10 - 15 mins
where you are going 100% for 45 - 60 seconds, and run at a
good pace at all other times. And of course this is without stopping.
Running weights and/or a vest are good additions too.

I am not too familiar with circuit training, but it seems to be a form
of weight training where each set is composed of a multitude of
different exercises. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

To have a high heart rate here use short rest periods combined
with the proper weight (one that is challenging for your desired
rep range). This is an area where the Mayo Clinic is being too 
general, IMHO.

Like yourself, I happen to hate things like running, although
this is typically known as the best exercise for burning calories.
Lately I have been including a session or two a week of tennis,
racquetball, basketball, soccer, etc. All of the sports that require
constant movement are good.

Overall I find that the best indicators are sweat, and how much you
are huffing and puffing. Also, most people recommend not engaging
in these activities for more than an hour.


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## Built (Jun 29, 2011)

For fat loss: diet. Lift heavy and diet hard.


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## World-Pharma.org (Jun 30, 2011)

yes,diet is the key.


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## feinburgrl (Jun 30, 2011)

Built said:


> For fat loss: diet. Lift heavy and diet hard.



This above. Diet is the key to weight loss. You can run 8 hours a day but if your taking more calories then coming out then you will not loss weight. Although it's not as simple as calorie in vs calorie out there are some other factors but if you keep your calories intake lower then you take in then your all good with losing weight. I do cardio because I enjoy it.


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## LAM (Jul 2, 2011)

just looking at the workouts.  if you did 2 comparable workouts there would be about an equal 24hr caloric expenditure from the resistance training session vs cardio.  but aerobic exercise offers no strength benefits nor does it have a positive effect on the endocrine system like resistance training does.

for a person looking to sustain muscle mass and decrease body fat you would do better performing sprints vs distance running.  you can increase the VO2Max much quicker with sprints than you can with distance running.


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## Tiroof! (Jul 2, 2011)

LAM said:


> just looking at the workouts.  if you did 2 comparable workouts there would be about an equal 24hr caloric expenditure from the resistance training session vs cardio.  but aerobic exercise offers no strength benefits nor does it have a positive effect on the endocrine system like resistance training does.
> 
> for a person looking to sustain muscle mass and decrease body fat you would do better performing sprints vs distance running.  you can increase the VO2Max much quicker with sprints than you can with distance running.


  Ok so you see thats interesting. I like the direction in where you were going with your response. If I ran and dieted, yes I would lose fat, however, Kcal vs Kcal which exercise would preserve the most muscle and burn the most fat? Circuit training or running? Im guessing Circuit training but have no concrete evidence.


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## Built (Jul 2, 2011)

Tiroof! said:


> Ok so you see thats interesting. I like the direction in where you were going with your response. If I ran and dieted, yes I would lose fat, however, Kcal vs Kcal which exercise would preserve the most muscle and burn the most fat? Circuit training or running? Im guessing Circuit training but have no concrete evidence.


Neither. You'll drop the most fat and preserve the most muscle if you diet hard and lift heavy, and tack some low intensity activity like walking. You can easily overtrain off your muscle doing circuit training in a deficit - it's called P90X.


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## Tiroof! (Jul 2, 2011)

Built said:


> Neither. You'll drop the most fat and preserve the most muscle if you diet hard and lift heavy, and tack some low intensity activity like walking. You can easily overtrain off your muscle doing circuit training in a deficit - it's called P90X.



So cardio really isnt even needed. Just "diet hard" (???) and "lift heavy" (???)

Can you be more specific? Have you tried this and has it worked for you in comparison? You can also easily overtrain with lifting heavy and being in caloric deficit. Ive been a victim of that myself.

Lastly, just noting although I dont agree with p90x at all. All my idiot buds who have tried it....got fairly ripped....


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## Built (Jul 2, 2011)

Tiroof! said:


> So cardio really isnt even needed. Just "diet hard" (???) and "lift heavy" (???)


Depends what you want. If you want to lose the most weight possible in a given timeframe, do everything. Much of what you drop will be muscle, but you'll get smaller, and you will lose a lot of fat. 


Tiroof! said:


> Can you be more specific? Have you tried this and has it worked for you in comparison?


Yes. The only way I've ever successfully cut was using this method. Minimal cardio (read: 6 x 20:40 sprint/walk intervals followed by 12 minutes of walking four times a week), heavy compounds lifted four times a week, and a caloric deficit. 

Those are my abs in my 'tar. I was fat for twenty years prior to that. 


Tiroof! said:


> You can also easily overtrain with lifting heavy and being in caloric deficit. Ive been a victim of that myself.


You used too much volume. The workouts you do while cutting are short. Mine are usually something like one upper and one lower per workout, something like quads and shoulders for instance:

5x5 squats
3x8 front squats
5x5 cleans
3x8 shoulder press
20 minutes of post workout cardio, first six minutes are sprints
stretch and go home.



Tiroof! said:


> Lastly, just noting although I dont agree with p90x at all. All my idiot buds who have tried it....got fairly ripped....


Like I said above, you'll lose a lot of weight. Much of this will be muscle, but if you don't mind losing muscle and getting weaker while you cut up, it'll do the trick. 
Remember, you have to burn off 3500 calories to drop a pound of fat, but only about 600 calories are stored in a pound of muscle. Train and diet wrong, and for a 3500 calorie deficit, you can lose six pounds, but you won't like it.


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## Tiroof! (Jul 2, 2011)

Built said:


> Depends what you want. If you want to lose the most weight possible in a given timeframe, do everything. Much of what you drop will be muscle, but you'll get smaller, and you will lose a lot of fat.
> 
> Yes. The only way I've ever successfully cut was using this method. Minimal cardio (read: 6 x 20:40 sprint/walk intervals followed by 12 minutes of walking four times a week), heavy compounds lifted four times a week, and a caloric deficit.
> 
> ...




WOW. Ok. A) Nice abs.
B) what supplements do you take?
C) is there anyway to do this with no/minimal loss of strength? Can I do heavier cardio? Its ok if it takes me a bit more time to shred this way.
D) Again you say circuit training was easy to over train with a caloric deficit....again...whats the difference in overtraining when your lifting heavy with a caloric deficit?

E) how ofter did you work out per week? If you were to clock in a time. not uncluding cardio how long were your workouts?


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## Built (Jul 2, 2011)

Tiroof! said:


> WOW. Ok. A) Nice abs.
> B) what supplements do you take?
> C) is there anyway to do this with no/minimal loss of strength? Can I do heavier cardio? Its ok if it takes me a bit more time to shred this way.
> D) Again you say circuit training was easy to over train with a caloric deficit....again...whats the difference in overtraining when your lifting heavy with a caloric deficit?
> ...



a) thank you. That part's genetic, plus I'm female. Don't talk to me about ass-fat. <sigh>

b) At that time (I'm 48 now; I was 42 in that shot) I was taking creatine monohydrate 5g daily, fish oil 10g daily, and a multivitamin. 

c) yes; yes but you may lose more muscle, and with it, strength. As your cut progresses, heavier cardio will also negatively impact upon your testosterone levels. 

d) Lifting heavy signals your body to risk-manage muscle in spite of the deficit. You may not get stronger or gain muscle while cutting, so higher-volume hypertrophy programs may not be advisable. But reduced-volume workouts centered on heavy compounds will provide sufficient anabolic stimulus to retain muscle, provided you don't do something stupid. Stupid things include, in no particular order: insufficient protein, too strong of a deficit and run for too long, insufficient fat intake, too much calorie-burning activity. Calorie burning activity such as running or circuit training won't stimulate an anabolic response, because you don't need big muscles to do P90x. Your body quickly realizes this, and reduces the size of those muscles so they don't burn as many calories to run. In short, this type of activity promotes efficiency. Efficient bodies burn very few calories. Perhaps this is not what you want. 

e) 4 lifting workouts a week. Note that each workout was about 16 sets in total. With nice long rest-breaks, my lifting took about 40 minutes, then another 20 minutes of post-workout cardio.


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## LAM (Jul 2, 2011)

Tiroof! said:


> Ok so you see thats interesting. I like the direction in where you were going with your response. If I ran and dieted, yes I would lose fat, however, Kcal vs Kcal which exercise would preserve the most muscle and burn the most fat? Circuit training or running? Im guessing Circuit training but have no concrete evidence.



you have to look at them as 2 completely different forms of exercise.  exercise itself is catabolic by nature at the conclusion the body has a negative protein balance.  feeding after exercise will restore the nitrogen balance in the body.

how much body fat do you have?  this is also a factor when trying to determine the most effective type of workout for a given amount of time.  those with higher amounts of body fat will not lose muscle mass even with a caloric deficit because of the way leptin regulates fatty acid metabolism and muscle catabolism.

I'm a big fan of utilizing high intensity exercise for cardio in conjunction with resistance training vs lower intensity cardio.  you can increase the VO2max substantially in a much shorter amount of time.  the greater the VO2max the harder a person can exercise for a maximum levels of effort in terms of resistance training.  this in turn maximizes the EPOC in the hours after exercise where the real fat loss occurs.


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## Tiroof! (Jul 3, 2011)

Alright so you obviously seem to imply that you know a good amount about nutrition. I dont know anything so tell me what to tweak.
Food Name
Amount
Unit
Cals
Fat (g)
Carbs (g)
Prot (g)
Delete


Total
3,271 cals
54.7 fats
323.1 carbs
357.3 protien

WHEY ultimate

480
4.0
0.0
100.0

Milk, 1% fat

307
7.1
36.5
24.7

Granola, lowfat, Kellogg's

794
10.7
166.4
17.1

Bread, whole wheat

345
4.7
61.4
14.3

Egg, white only, raw

103
0.3
1.4
21.6

Egg, whole, raw

63
4.4
0.3
5.5

Cheese, cottage, lowfat (1-2% fat)

163
2.3
6.1
28.0

yogurt bio 1.5%

236
4.6
37.8
11.2

Fish, tuna, white, canned in water, drained solids

220
5.1
0.0
40.6

Bread, white

69
0.9
13.2
2.0

Chicken, breast, skin not eaten

491
10.6
0.0
92.3



Total
3,271
54.7
323.1
357.3















Again, I beleive you stated to start at a 500 cal deficit. If I started at 250 would that decrease the amount of muscle lost?


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## Built (Jul 3, 2011)

How tall are you, what do you weigh and how much are you trying to lose?


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## Tiroof! (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm 5.7 
175 lbs
Want to be a shredded 170


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## Built (Jul 3, 2011)

So you'll be shredded in five pounds?


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## Tiroof! (Jul 4, 2011)

Built said:


> So you'll be shredded in five pounds?



Well if I'm thirteen percent body fat then I got 22 lbs of fat. 5 lbs is pretty significant no?


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## Built (Jul 4, 2011)

Tiroof! said:


> I'm 5.7
> 175 lbs
> Want to be a shredded 170





Built said:


> So you'll be shredded in five pounds?





Tiroof! said:


> Well if I'm thirteen percent body fat then I got 22 lbs of fat. 5 lbs is pretty significant no?



Okay, so you're carrying 152 lbs lean mass, so if you diet down well and don't drop muscle, you'll hit 8% fat at about 165 lbs. That's pretty shredded - so you're looking to drop ten pounds.


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## pebble (Jul 4, 2011)

LAM said:


> just looking at the workouts.  if you did 2 comparable workouts there would be about an equal 24hr caloric expenditure from the resistance training session vs cardio.  but aerobic exercise offers no strength benefits nor does it have a positive effect on the endocrine system like resistance training does.
> 
> for a person looking to sustain muscle mass and decrease body fat you would do better performing sprints vs distance running.  you can increase the VO2Max much quicker with sprints than you can with distance running.




It's true, you can, but it is intensity and frequency dependent. It is at such a high level that most people would never be able to do it.  Most studies done in this area are WinGates.  Normally 4-6 wingates a session 3 x week for a couple weeks.  Most people can not do a single wingate never mind 4 to six of them with only 4-10 minutes between each one, despite them being only 30secs of high intensity exercise.  Compound that with multiple times per week and it is not going to work for your average gym rat.  


Also slow steady state exercise offers more vascular system adaptations and even a few central (heart) adaptations that HIIT does not due to its shorter time of stimulus and reliance on specific muscle tissues (type 2a and b (or x)).

OP circuit training is good, you breath heavy and expend energy, but that energy is not fat and does not cause adaptions that mimic cardio.  However, that does not mean it can not be used as a tool to stimulate fat loss (primarily) calorie expenditure and hormonal raises in GH, norepi and epi that cause lipolysis (use the no freed fatty acids as energy once the workouts done.


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## pebble (Jul 4, 2011)

LAM said:


> you have to look at them as 2 completely different forms of exercise.  exercise itself is catabolic by nature at the conclusion the body has a negative protein balance.  feeding after exercise will restore the nitrogen balance in the body.



This is dependent on nutritional state pre/peri exercise.



LAM said:


> how much body fat do you have?  this is also a factor when trying to determine the most effective type of workout for a given amount of time.  those with higher amounts of body fat will not lose muscle mass even with a caloric deficit because of the way leptin regulates fatty acid metabolism and muscle catabolism.



I would say this is pretty immature assumption based of the current  information on leptin and its role in lipolysis.  Cyto(Adpio)kines play  many roles that are not fully understood at this time. To jump to this conclusion you are taking a big leap of faith that I doubt many scientists would every consider doing (at least good ones).



LAM said:


> I'm a big fan of utilizing high intensity exercise for cardio in conjunction with resistance training vs lower intensity cardio.  you can increase the VO2max substantially in a much shorter amount of time.  the greater the VO2max the harder a person can exercise for a maximum levels of effort in terms of resistance training.  this in turn maximizes the EPOC in the hours after exercise where the real fat loss occurs.



All resistance training is anaerobic, how does having a higher VO2max help RT?  Having a higher VO2 plays no role in ones ability to clear waste products or prevent the dissociation of H2O into H+ and HO-  so pH will still drop and cause enzymes to stop function, and thus reconversion of ADP into ATP will stop and subsequently contractions cease.


And EPOC is largely over exaggerated.


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## Tiroof! (Jul 4, 2011)

Built said:


> Okay, so you're carrying 152 lbs lean mass, so if you diet down well and don't drop muscle, you'll hit 8% fat at about 165 lbs. That's pretty shredded - so you're looking to drop ten pounds.



Ok fine. How do I do that with minimal muscle drop (time not an issue)


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## Built (Jul 4, 2011)

Read homework 1 in my sig, and daredevils are shredded, also in my sig.


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## juicemeup (Jul 4, 2011)

in my experience better overall strength and lean look throuhg circuit, running obviously for cutting weight


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## Tiroof! (Jul 4, 2011)

Built said:


> Read homework 1 in my sig, and daredevils are shredded, also in my sig.



Still mid read. Yet I skimmed and dont see any algorithm fitted for weight requirment. To get to 165 how much carb/fat/protien do I require? Additionally, you seem to favor a large amount of fat. Were talking about doubling it. Will my body react alright to that? Make it feel flooded and itl store it away


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## Built (Jul 4, 2011)

Calories in, calories out. You need to actually read the words in that article 
There's a very clear description of how to find your macronutrient mix and calories.


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## Built (Jul 4, 2011)

pebble said:


> EPOC is largely over exaggerated.



It really is. Repped. 

You want to drop fat? Drop your calories and lift some weights. Pretend for now that exercise burns nothing. That way, you don't try to train off the weight.


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## Tiroof! (Jul 6, 2011)

Built said:


> Calories in, calories out. You need to actually read the words in that article
> There's a very clear description of how to find your macronutrient mix and calories.



Ok:
So more intense the sets of HIITS are the more Catecholamine is released  therefore triggering the lipid stores and are trapped by lactate which  is also produced, and is protecting the lipid stores so you need to  create mitochondria  to clear both lactate and the lipids from the blood  stream by strengthening you capillary density which happens when you  enhance your VO2max then clearing the lipid stores and lactate by  exercising at 25% your VO2 max.

So you quoted me 20 mins of cardio after. So thats 10 sets HIIT sprints 10 min walking? And you said Circuit training was ok in your Daredevil article. Still not recommended? Lastly I need help with the diet calculation. So I keep it at a 500 kcal deficit? Wont I level out? What about maintenance once I reach my weight? So for my weight it would be 300 gram protien 200 gram carb and 100 gram fat....right?


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## GauSha (Nov 20, 2011)

*HIIT program- Any suggestiosn?*

I've recently started a new routine focused around HIIT. I'm 30 years old and relatively fit. Small guy at 5'4 and weighing roughly 59kg. My aim is not to get massive but more to get defined and cut. The area that I feel I wanna target the most is my mid section (lowr abs). Can you tell me if my routine sounds like it would work. I've been doing it for the past week and feel great. 

HIIT: 3x week
Phase I
-5 min: warm up (treadmill)
-10 min: sprint/jog: 15sec sprint/45sec jog
-2 min: cool down 
Phase II
-20 min: steady state cardio (eliptical)
Phase III
-10min: sprint/jog: 1min sprint:1min jog (lower intensity then in Phase I).

The days that I'm not doing HIIT, I do stead state cardio for 30-40 minutes. Along with a high intensity based weight session (3-4x week). 

Any tips woudl be great. 
ps: Would it hurt to have a weight session on days of HIIT? ie: high rep/low weight work otu? 

Cheers.


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## Built (Nov 21, 2011)

Tiroof! said:


> Ok:
> So more intense the sets of HIITS are the more Catecholamine is released  therefore triggering the lipid stores and are trapped by lactate which  is also produced, and is protecting the lipid stores so you need to  create mitochondria  to clear both lactate and the lipids from the blood  stream by strengthening you capillary density which happens when you  enhance your VO2max then clearing the lipid stores and lactate by  exercising at 25% your VO2 max.
> 
> So you quoted me 20 mins of cardio after. So thats 10 sets HIIT sprints 10 min walking? And you said Circuit training was ok in your Daredevil article. Still not recommended? Lastly I need help with the diet calculation. So I keep it at a 500 kcal deficit? Wont I level out? What about maintenance once I reach my weight? So for my weight it would be 300 gram protien 200 gram carb and 100 gram fat....right?



Sorry I missed this. Circuits are fine as a sub for sprints - you'd still need some heavy lifting in your week, though, to hold onto muscle mass. 

Diet, you just run a modest deficit - 10-20% below maintenance - until you hit goal. Then slowly creep up the calories until you hit maintenance. 
GauSha, see my reply to your identical post in the other thread.


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