# Help me help my son



## The Mom (Nov 4, 2006)

My son, 15 plays football, linebacker and runningback.  He tore up his Quad on 10/2 during a game (wouldn't come out, because he can't be hurt of course).  Crutches for a week, Immobilizer for 2 weeks and he's been going to PT now for about 2 weeks.  Ultrasound, massage, heat/ice with electric stimulation directly to the Quad etc.  He started on the sationary bike yesterday and they are going to have him try to run next week.  My question is this.  Before injury, he was easily squatting 305# in the weight room every day (takes strength training daily instead of PE).  The only reason I know this number is because when he told the trainer the trainer replied "holy cats"!  The trainer says that his Quad is "so defined" that basiclly he just tore himself up as he continued to play because he wouldn't come out and stretch it out.  He wants to play college ball, and really needs to #1 rehabilitate this injury #2 gain about 30-35 pounds (he's 5'9" and 160-5) #3 shave some time off of his 40 (4.8 seconds before injury).  He can handle the weight training part of it, does that every day in school and visits the weight room every day when out of school.  The trainer is going to teach him a complete stretching program to do before during and after working out/games so this doesn't happen over and over and What do I feed this kid and does he need any supplements (if any) to bulk up before next August?


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## Dale Mabry (Nov 4, 2006)

Moved to nutrition...


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## fyredup1286 (Nov 4, 2006)

read the stickies at the top of the nutrition forum...it should answer ur question...


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## StanUk (Nov 4, 2006)

Aim to feed him 5 or 6 meals a day, I cant give you an exact figure but at his height/weight you should probably be aiming around the 3500 calories mark for optimal lean body mass gains. Make sure all the meals contain whole foods, a good protein source, some good carbs and healthy fats, fruit and vegetables, yada yada.. meat, fish, eggs for protein, oats, whole rice and pasta for carbs and flaxseed oil, olive oil for healthy fats, and as i say try to include plenty of fruits and vegetables, if suppliments (i.e protein powder) make life easier then by all means use them, in my opinion they have no benefit over whole foods and whole protein sources, they just make life easier and are more convenient. 

Good luck


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## Trouble (Nov 4, 2006)

Good answer from Stan, but I want to correct a misconception.

 Whey (complete, a blend of concentrate and isolate) is an ideal protein source that is highly enriched in the precursors that function as critical free radical scavengers that form form normal energy burning processes (called respiration).

These precursors present in milk and eggs, but at much lower concentrations.  Whey is also enriched in important growth and immune regulating factors.

To that whey shake, add a little EVO (olive oil) and also either rice or oat bran, not wheat bran.  This bran is also a source of important fiber, and its components will help in the longer-term healing of your sons injury and strengthen connective tissue and maintain joint health - all vital for athletic performance.

The only supplements to focus on are a multimineral multivitamin and water.  Hydration is a critical part of diet, one we stress here.

Mom, your kid is 15 - old enough to begin taking adult responsibility for his health and wellbeing.  He should play a primary role in his nutrition/dietary habits. We have quite a few members his age who learn how to eat for healthy strength training performance.  You should have your son register here and begin reading the same material in nutrition and diet, and he can begin to read study 'pinned' articles in training section on stretching here as well.

More importantly,I would ammend Stans recommended diet to include root vegetables as the primary source of energy replenishing carbs, not just pasta and rice.  The latter are devoid of much of the useful vitamins, minerals and antioxidants found in root vegetables.


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## StanUk (Nov 4, 2006)

Ah I stand corrected, thankyou Trouble 

The examples I listed were obviously just a few examples, there are many other foods you can substitute them with. Also I forgot to say, and as Trouble said, hydration is a key part of diet.


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## The Mom (Nov 4, 2006)

He's a good kid, I can't complain, but, to his determent of his "training" he has the attitude of a total animal,  if it hurts, it makes him mad and he just goes out and hits harder the next play, hence, why he didn't come out of the game, pure adrenaline his PT trainer and Dr say.  Took him about 45 minutes post game to be unable to bear wieght,  this one scared him, because now he realizes he could blow any chance he may have to play football, or to go into the military, which is his other goal, if the football doesn't pan out.  He eats like a typical teenaged boy, but, I've got him totally off the pop except for the occasional one, he drinks nothing but gatorade or powerade, I know they contain sugar, but better than pop in my estimation.  He needs to drink much more H2O  and I'm hoping to get him turned onto more salads to get in more vegies.  As for eating 5-6 times a day, he already does that, eats me out of house and home and still only about 160.  I already cook with olive oil, and he eats oatmeal for breakfast, usually with a bananna or apple.  But, as you say, he's 15, and I certainly can't control what he chooses to eat during the day when I'm not doing the cooking.  I feel like he needs some kind of multivimin supplement, can you boys suggest one?  I don't feel protein powders would be helpful to him, until he trains himself to eat correctly and quit cruising the drivethrus with his buddies.  He continues to do upper body every day in the weight room, and is making small gains there.  Like I said before, this week he will start a running program with the trainer at PT, and if everything goes like it has been, I'm sure he'll be off restrictions soon.  He was lucky, he was in good shape, so he'll bounce back quickly, but, it was a major tear and now he'll have to combat that for a long time to come.  Hopefully by August, he'll be in prime shape, and won't have to worry about hurting himself again.  Thanks for all the good info, keep it coming, I'm getting an education with this also.


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## bio-chem (Nov 4, 2006)

how much does this kid stand to grow naturally? what im asking is 5'9" his finished height or is he likely to grow another few inches? 

as far as a multivitamin/multimineral i like kirkland signatures high energy that you can buy at costco.  stay away from centrum or something similar as it doesnt have the right things he will need for recovery.  as far as protien goes some sort of whey is usually the first supplement someone adds when they begin training because its difficult to get all the protien you need at the right time just by eating.  its a good thing to add.

as far as the drivethru goes relaxe, he is 15. unless he gains fat easily, he most likely has the metabolism of a goat and calories are calories the more the better.


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## PWGriffin (Nov 4, 2006)

bio-chem said:


> as far as the drivethru goes relaxe, he is 15. unless he gains fat easily, he most likely has the metabolism of a goat and calories are calories the more the better.



trouble is going to eat this up.  

All calories are not created equal.  Shitty foods are not optimal for growth and health...and the protein in most of those (processed) foods is subpar at best.


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## Double D (Nov 4, 2006)

PWGriffin said:


> trouble is going to eat this up.
> 
> All calories are not created equal.  Shitty foods are not optimal for growth and health...and the protein in most of those (processed) foods is subpar at best.




I was about to say the same thing....


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## Seanp156 (Nov 4, 2006)

In addition to what's been said about his diet, his training routine in all honesty sounds pretty bad... You say he's doing upper body every day and squatting everday? Something like upper body twice a week and lower body twice a week would be more ideal... Some might even argue hitting the main muscles twice a week is too much... He's more than likely not getting enough recovery time to allow his muscles to rebuild and get stronger between his workouts... Somewhere around 72 hours is about the right amount of time to wait before hitting the same muscle group again during the week.


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## The Mom (Nov 4, 2006)

He's 5'9" now, and stands to add a few more inches due to DNA, probably, he's only 15, so I'd assume he has at least a few more to add.  I agree, he's 15, and until he decides for himself to use some discipline, he probably won't skip very many drive thrus with his buddies so to speak.  he eats constantly, so I'd also assume he has a pretty good motabolism, because this kid just doesn't have any fat on him anywhere.  Shows a nice light 6 pack, and some starting definition in the arms ect, but nothing well defined like someone in serious training would have.  He takes strength training as a class instead of PE, probalby 45 minutes a day M-F, he's only doing upper body, because he hasn't been released to do any lower body.  He walks around the track right now while the other kids run, that's all his PT trainer and the Dr will allow due to his injury.  In 4 weeks he's gone from unable to bear any weight on the R leg at all to a session of light stationary bike followed by stretching and then some electric muscle stimulation under ice by the PT trainer.  This next week he will start his running program, and as I understand it, when he can run a mile at pre-injury speed and do sprints at pre-injury speed, they will let him starting doing lower body again.  So, he wants to get back to squatting his 305# by January, then start to bulk up and gain some weight by next August because on #1 he doesn't want to be on the injured list #2 he wants to be in good enough shape that he'll be able to hit harder and sprint faster, will probably be starting defense as a linebacker due to graduating starters and #3 he'll be a junior and it'll be go time to start looking at colleges.  I think the multivimin is a good idea, we have a GNC here any suggestions?  I'll try to talk him into a protein shake LOL, I'll let you know how that goes Thanks to you all.


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## durk (Nov 4, 2006)

PWGriffin said:


> trouble is going to eat this up.
> 
> All calories are not created equal.  Shitty foods are not optimal for growth and health...and the protein in most of those (processed) foods is subpar at best.



I dont agree with this it all depends on genetics I know an ex pro wrestler who also dabbed a little bit in WWF a while ago and hes got 21 inch arms and a six pack year round and all he eats is burger king and pizza hut. Its better to get bad cals then not enough cals.  
See how his body responds then adjust from there it much harder to eat the food if its not enjoyable.


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## bio-chem (Nov 4, 2006)

PWGriffin said:


> trouble is going to eat this up.
> 
> All calories are not created equal.  Shitty foods are not optimal for growth and health...and the protein in most of those (processed) foods is subpar at best.




sure, you are absolutely correct. how cleanly do you expect a 15 year old kid to eat?  do you really expect the kid to pack white rice and a chicken breast to school for lunch while his friends, also on the football team, eat at burger king?  its time to be realistic. get the kid to do the best he can, without taking the fun out of being a teenager. remember todd maronovich?


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## bio-chem (Nov 4, 2006)

The Mom said:


> I'll try to talk him into a protein shake LOL, I'll let you know how that goes Thanks to you all.



what is his problem with a protien shake? there are a few varieties that taste pretty good? muslce milk in any flavor tastes great, and adds needed calories. and i like optimum nutrition as well.  both are easy to pack in a shaker bottle, add some water, and he can drink it after his strength traing class.


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## StanUk (Nov 4, 2006)

Any multivitamin is going to be beneficial if hes not already taking one, just make sure it doesn't contain any iron, obviously there are some multis that are better than others but you cannot really go wrong with most of them. I think its important you get his training right, I don't think the poor kid should be squatting every day or even working out everyday full stop, its defiantly over training, obviously at the moment he cant really train lower body but just make sure he gets adequate rest. In regards to his bulking, at that age hes probably going to have a very fast metabolism, so remember that if the gains are coming very slowly it might be worth upping the calories by 500/day until you see optimal gains, at that age/metabolism I don't think you need to worry about him getting fat, especially if at the moment he has a visible six pack, im guessing that hes probably got quite low body fat and if hes training to be a line backer he could probably benefit with gaining some bf if it means gaining extra mass. As for the drive throughs I wouldn't worry about it at all, sure its not particularly healthy but the extra calories aren't really going to effect him, and hes still young so he needs to live a little


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## Trouble (Nov 4, 2006)

While its true that this kid may not put on fat mass from the fast food, there is a drawback to daily trips to the drive-through with his buddies: he develops a taste for this type of food, a regular habit.  Eating that saturated fat laden food will do very little to help keep him from porking (gaining fat) because its the saturated fat that binds to and activates the insulin receptors in pancreas.  Those saturated fats partition into membranes..for a long time. They are released slowly back into circulation..and within a few years can result in weight problems (like when he playing in college).  The young man that may not problems gaining fat at 15 can face a nightmare in weight control at 19 or 20.

Believe it, its part of the problem of both high blood pressure and obesity in our young people. 

Better at this point to restrain his urge to visit fast food heaven, to keep it to once a week or so, as a cheat meal (reward system), rather than to have him consider it daily fare.

See my point?

Also, the fat calories will not help him build muscle. On the contrary, they will induce a catabolic state by activating inflammatory response, and can slow down his recovery from injury, as well as alter his ability to properly produce vitamin D, a compound vital to growth in bones and connective tissues.

You can purchase whey protein through this site.  Stans recommendation for the multivitamin is a good one; its a brand I use as well (Kirkland by Costco).

If you want to get him to bulk, feed him the whole food sources we describe (and covered more thoroughly in stickied (permanent) threads in this subforum. His ability to absorb and utilize food stuffs is directly tied to the soluble and insoluble fiber from grains and vegetables.  They will condition his intestinal tract and improve nutrient retention and uptake.  Right now, his problem is that he is very active and food stuff passes through his system faster than it can be properly absorbed...he's burning off what he takes in and just able to maintain - hence the need for more food calories, in excess, to drive lean muscle mass gains.

The comment on the person who can eat anything, and still have a fantastic physique?  Ahh, sure.  Thats presuming his membranes don't change their characteristics with this asinine diet of crap food.  For the time being, you can't see these changes, they are slow, and accumulate over time.  Down the road, the price is paid for having more robust genetics (that means, a system that runs very efficiently despite poor quality inputs).  

Its fairy tale that such individuals can keep up these habits long term.  You see them for a snapshot of their lives.  They will pay the piper, rest assured, their bodies respond to basic laws of matter, just like everyone does.


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## PWGriffin (Nov 4, 2006)

Trouble said:


> While its true that this kid may not put on fat mass from the fast food, there is a drawback to daily trips to the drive-through with his buddies: he develops a taste for this type of food, a regular habit.  Eating that saturated fat laden food will do very little to help keep him from porking (gaining fat) because its the saturated fat that binds to and activates the insulin receptors in pancreas.  Those saturated fats partition into membranes..for a long time. They are released slowly back into circulation..and within a few years can result in weight problems (like when he playing in college).  The young man that may not problems gaining fat at 15 can face a nightmare in weight control at 19 or 20.
> 
> Believe it, its part of the problem of both high blood pressure and obesity in our young people.
> 
> ...



   

I was going to mention nutrient partitioning...but I knew you would!!

You guys are like "let em eat whatever he wants....he's 15 blah blah"....the kid wants to play in college...this means he's serious....if he's serious, he will do what it takes.


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## Plateau_Max (Nov 5, 2006)

Right on PWG, I was right about to say something along those lines.

Seriously Mom, (that feels weird to say) if your son is serious enough to train daily with brut force then with enough emphasis he could be shown to put that same enthusiasm into his diet.  If anything, when his friends are packing down the grease and fat and he's eating the lean protein, complex carbs, and vitamin packed fruits and veggies he's gonna be the one with room to talk.  He's gonna be the one who's going to show that he has not only the intelligence, but the discipline to eat foods that are going to make him a powerhouse of strength and endurance as well as lead into a healthier adult life.

As far as the weight training, he had it coming, he really did.  Squatting is a very muscle intensive activity ESPECIALLY for the quadricep region.  This is one of the groups that I suggest the longest rest periods for.  If at 160 he's squatting 305 that's a lot of muscle tear-down with very little repair, and on top of that he's going out and playing football as a line backer balls to the wall.

Once he's fully recovered he needs to educate himself and institute a proper training program that involves good form and adequate rest time or he's just going to destroy his muscles and tendons again.


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## durk (Nov 5, 2006)

But the kid is gona have way more trouble putting the wheight on. I see how college football players eat and they have a hell of a time getting enough calories alone to stay at a heavy wheight. If he gets picky with what he eats there is no way he is going to put enough cals down to get to his desired wheight.     
Those ultra healthy eat only clean cals when they bulk guys are the smallest guys in any gym.  I love laughing in their faces when they try to give people diet advice when they cant break 170 and can barely lift half of what I do and have roughly the same BF as me.     

The only people that I see that have done the clean Bulk properly are competetive BB'ers that work in the Gym and have f@#! all to do all day other then cram down another ultra healthy meal between personal training sessions.  

Is eating clean to get big the best solution on paper? yes but it is not very realistic for the amount of wheight he needs to gain! How do you expect a kid that age to be constantly cooking ultra clean meals? It is very time consuming and unless his mommy is going to spend all day in the kitchen for him its not going to realisticly happen he is just a kid and he needs to do some stuff he enjoys.


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## NeilPearson (Nov 5, 2006)

durk said:


> But the kid is gona have way more trouble putting the wheight on. I see how college football players eat and they have a hell of a time getting enough calories alone to stay at a heavy wheight. If he gets picky with what he eats there is no way he is going to put enough cals down to get to his desired wheight.
> Those ultra healthy eat only clean cals when they bulk guys are the smallest guys in any gym.  I love laughing in their faces when they try to give people diet advice when they cant break 170 and can barely lift half of what I do and have roughly the same BF as me.
> 
> The only people that I see that have done the clean Bulk properly are competetive BB'ers that work in the Gym and have f@#! all to do all day other then cram down another ultra healthy meal between personal training sessions.
> ...




This is not true.  It can be done.  Eat lots of stuff that is easy to prepare.  Cereal like Kashi Go-Lean (17 g soy protein, 10 g fiber, 36 g carbs, 12 g sugar per cup) is good and will provide lots of energy.  Same with fruit.  Having oranges, bananas, grapes, apples, etc around to snack on will help.  Also nuts are huge in calories and good fats.  Natty peanut butter is a great way to add some calories.  All these things I mentioned require no cooking and almost no preparing.  All he has to do is keep track of his calories and know what he is eating.  Enter it into something like www.fitday.com and if he isn't gaining weight, just increase the calories.  

Honestly, if he is serious about football... it is very, very competitive and the ones that are serious about it at 15 have a lot better chance of making it.  Excuses about teenage lifestyle are just lame.  If he is serious, he seriously needs to do what it takes.  This means he is going to have to start researching and figuring things out.  It is all spelled out on this site how do it properly.  All it takes is a few days of going through the stickies and studying...   and if he is serious, that shouldn't be too much of a task - but he can't really have mom do it for him.  Don't get me wrong, I think it is great that mom is helping out and it will make it much easier on him if his mom understands what he is doing... but ultimately, he is still going to have to take the active roll here.


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## PWGriffin (Nov 5, 2006)

durk said:


> But the kid is gona have way more trouble putting the wheight on. I see how college football players eat and they have a hell of a time getting enough calories alone to stay at a heavy wheight. If he gets picky with what he eats there is no way he is going to put enough cals down to get to his desired wheight.
> Those ultra healthy eat only clean cals when they bulk guys are the smallest guys in any gym.  I love laughing in their faces when they try to give people diet advice when they cant break 170 and can barely lift half of what I do and have roughly the same BF as me.
> 
> The only people that I see that have done the clean Bulk properly are competetive BB'ers that work in the Gym and have f@#! all to do all day other then cram down another ultra healthy meal between personal training sessions.
> ...



fuck you really don't know anything about nutrition do you?  You can get all the calories you will ever need without eating BULLSHIT, that's the WHOLE POINT!!!  What the fuck will empty calories do for the guy?  We are not telling the kid to eat 2500 cals a day JESUS.  Here let me give you a great example.

4 whole eggs
1/2 cup oatmeal
2 slices wheat bread 
2 cups fat free milk

= almost a thousand cals 

Another example

2 PBJ's with natty PB and low sugar jam on whole wheat
2 cups fat free milk

Fucking lots of calories and good fats and a bit of carbs too...I'm not saying this is the best choice, but better for an athlete than Burger King, wouldn't you say?

What is the kid eating for breakfast now?  Prolly a bowl of cereal or a granola bar or some shit at the cafeteria.  If the kid eats bullshit a lot he will get maybe more cals?  Maybe...but they will ALL be in the way of FAT cals...prolly SATURATED fats.  So his FF diet would be what 20%carbs, 30% protein, 50% fat??  Is that good?  Is that reasonable since he just needs to put on a bunch of shitty weight??

Damn people, we are supposed to give good advice for CHRIST's sake.  Nowhere on this damn DIET AND NUTRITION forum should we say "eh, fast food is great for a bulk!!  Young athletes especially!!"


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## durk (Nov 5, 2006)

PWGriffin said:


> fuck you really don't know anything about nutrition do you?  You can get all the calories you will ever need without eating BULLSHIT, that's the WHOLE POINT!!!  What the fuck will empty calories do for the guy?  We are not telling the kid to eat 2500 cals a day JESUS.  Here let me give you a great example.
> 
> *4 whole eggs
> 1/2 cup oatmeal
> ...



I know enough about nutrition but bulking in general doesnt have much to do with eating healthy. It is much better when bulking to eat some fast food rather then miss a meal. I am not saying fast food is all you should eat but if you have no time during the day and if its all you can get at the time it is much better then going without.


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## durk (Nov 5, 2006)

by far I think the best resource for bulking is a book called anabolic diet. I had trained at a gym owned by the author and everyone in it was massive! I have even heard this sites admin talk about this book in the past and It calls for heaps of bacon and food portions that most of you cellary munchers would cringe at.         
probably some nobody right? wrong! he is dr. mauro dipasquale only canadas first powerlifter to win the olympic gold.


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## PWGriffin (Nov 5, 2006)

sigh, you are hopeless.  This kid is not on steroids.  Thus, he needs a better approach then all the enhanced muscle heads at your gym.  

The better approach is to eat clean, calorie dense foods....not eat fast food.  Period.  You can't dispute that with anything.  So stop.


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## P-funk (Nov 5, 2006)

durk said:


> by far I think the best resource for bulking is a book called anabolic diet. I had trained at a gym owned by the author and everyone in it was massive! I have even heard this sites admin talk about this book in the past and It calls for heaps of bacon and food portions that most of you cellary munchers would cringe at.
> probably some nobody right? wrong! *he is dr. mauro dipasquale only canadas first powerlifter to win the olympic gold.*



what did he win olympic gold in?  Powerlifting is not an olympic event.


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## durk (Nov 5, 2006)

P-funk said:


> what did he win olympic gold in?  Powerlifting is not an olympic event.



sorry I confused it he won a world championship powerlifting contest in 76 and the World Games in the sport of Powerlifting in 1981.


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## durk (Nov 5, 2006)

PWGriffin said:


> sigh, you are hopeless.  This kid is not on steroids.  Thus, he needs a better approach then all the enhanced muscle heads at your gym.
> 
> The better approach is to eat clean, calorie dense foods....not eat fast food.  Period.  You can't dispute that with anything.  So stop.



yeah sorry I guess everyone bigger then you must be on steroids


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## durk (Nov 5, 2006)

P-funk said:


> what did he win olympic gold in?  Powerlifting is not an olympic event.



I thought at the time it was something olypmic because I remember pictures in his gym wearing something that looked like a gold medal.


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## PWGriffin (Nov 5, 2006)

durk said:


> yeah sorry I guess everyone bigger then you must be on steroids



They must be if they are massive from eating heaping piles of bacon and food portions that make us celery munchers cringe


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## bio-chem (Nov 5, 2006)

guys you are all giving great advice, and it is obvious you know your stuff. clean bulk is abviously better.  now lets look at reality. Mom thinks its going to be difficult to get the kid to have a protien shake. so how about we start with baby steps in regards to advice.  try and give advice that will be easiest to follow for a 15 year old high schooler. Do you even remember what it was like to be that age in high school?  argueing "If he was really serious, then he would do it"  is kind of a joke. today he wants to play college football, in 2 months it might be wrestleing, and after that baseball. or maybe he wants to be a doctor, or fireman. my point being at 15 its hard to say what the future is going to hold.  Burger King is not going to hurt the kid.  I played on the same high school team and graduated with former NFL 1st round draft pick Tyler Brayton.  I saw him eat fast food, its not going to kill this kid to eat out with his friends.  lets try and give advice that understands the whole situation.


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## durk (Nov 5, 2006)

bio-chem said:


> guys you are all giving great advice, and it is obvious you know your stuff. clean bulk is abviously better.  now lets look at reality. Mom thinks its going to be difficult to get the kid to have a protien shake. so how about we start with baby steps in regards to advice.  try and give advice that will be easiest to follow for a 15 year old high schooler. Do you even remember what it was like to be that age in high school?  argueing "If he was really serious, then he would do it"  is kind of a joke. today he wants to play college football, in 2 months it might be wrestleing, and after that baseball. or maybe he wants to be a doctor, or fireman. my point being at 15 its hard to say what the future is going to hold.  Burger King is not going to hurt the kid.  I played on the same high school team and graduated with former NFL 1st round draft pick Tyler Brayton.  I saw him eat fast food, its not going to kill this kid to eat out with his friends.  lets try and give advice that understands the whole situation.



exactly I was trying to be realistic everyone needs to start somewhere 

and PWGriffin dont make me laugh you sound just like I did my first 3 years of working out before I saw the light and put on an aditional 30 pounds to the total of sixty pounds I gained naturally, send me a postcard when you break 180 cupcake


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## Trouble (Nov 5, 2006)

Neil said it best, that the boy will have to take active responsibility, a personal role in choosing to eat healthy selection of food types.  He also needs to be careful in adjusting his calories, someone suggested boosting them 500 per week. I would calculate intake and estimate energy output.  Then slowly increase calories above once they are well above maintenance, to help him put on mass..slowly, so that his joints have a chance to acclimate to the stresses put on them. 

Excess saturated fat in the diet is not a good idea for the reasons already mentioned.   Mauro Di Pasquale's Metabolic diet is looks to be a repackaged version of the standard higher protein (anabolic diet), adequate fat, slow release carb (so called low carb, although its not really) cycled carb approach. 

It completely ignores standard biochemistry: that excess glucogenic amino acids are used to produce glucose in the absence of fat release carbs, and that fats are very important nuclear receptor modifiers. 

Fats were never meant to constitute as much as 50% of the diet when used as an energy source in hypercaloric diets. At these higher percentages (in terms of absolute mass effects), they tend to act on receptors they were never intended to naturally to hit as targets in the liver, brain and other tissues.

Do you get my meaning here?  These fats act like drugs on key nuclear receptors that control very important cellular processes throughout the body.

You do not fuck with them, especially not in adolescents who are still undergoing active physical development. These nuclear receptors turn on and off large cohorts of genes in certain tissues - bone and brain, skin and other tissues.  

For instance, I can provide you with a very creditable chain of events to that describe a solid link between increase in the incidence of childhood leukemia  (documented below) and the prevalence  of dietary fats, altered sleep habits, and sedentary behaviors.  

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=12712476

So I suggest that the most sensible approach to helping this young man meet his strength and performance goals is to eat cleanly and avoid the faulty logic behind cutting and bulking (which successful trainers like IronAddict now firmly dissuade in their training clientele), to get proper rest and sleep hygiene, to use stretching and other forms of adjunct training (including cardio and plyometrics) in addition to a sensible graded approach to strength training, and to employ stress management strategies to promote sound mental conditioning to that of physical conditioning.


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## PWGriffin (Nov 5, 2006)

durk said:


> exactly I was trying to be realistic everyone needs to start somewhere
> 
> and PWGriffin dont make me laugh you sound just like I did my first 3 years of working out before I saw the light and put on an aditional 30 pounds to the total of sixty pounds I gained naturally, send me a postcard when you break 180 cupcake



In my avatar I'm over 180 cupcake.  I'm over 200 now.  Oh yeah and I train individuals for a living.  So send me a postcard when anyone gives a shit what you think.

I'm close to a 500lb raw deadlift @201-202...where you at you big strong man? No pictures?  Typical.


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## PWGriffin (Nov 5, 2006)

> guys you are all giving great advice, and it is obvious you know your stuff. clean bulk is abviously better.



That's all I was ever getting at.  We are here to give solid advice though, and that solid advice doesn't consist of eating piles of bacon and fast food.  We all made our case.


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## bio-chem (Nov 5, 2006)

PWGriffin said:


> In my avatar I'm over 180 cupcake.  I'm over 200 now.  Oh yeah and I train individuals for a living.  So send me a postcard when anyone gives a shit what you think.
> 
> I'm close to a 500lb raw deadlift @201-202...where you at you big strong man? No pictures?  Typical.



have a lot of good results with 15 year olds do you?


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## durk (Nov 5, 2006)

PWGriffin said:


> In my avatar I'm over 180 cupcake.  I'm over 200 now.  Oh yeah and I train individuals for a living.  So send me a postcard when anyone gives a shit what you think.
> 
> I'm close to a 500lb raw deadlift @201-202...where you at you big strong man? No pictures?  Typical.



my max dead is probably only 350 since I have only been doing deads for three months I mainly stick to BBing excersises so I dont care about strength but if you want here are my strength stats Deadlift 350 squat 400 and bench 265 for max and hah I am still bigger then you and no I dont have a camera to take pics I am a college students who is barely getting by I have a busy schedule and no time to eat 100% clean.   
You are a personal trainer? you do fuck all during the day try balancing school and a job rather then hanging out at the gym  train someone here and there and be able to make a meal everytime in between.      

I bet 3 months after you started training you took a 1 week course at the ymca then started training people.


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## bio-chem (Nov 5, 2006)

PWGriffin said:


> That's all I was ever getting at.  We are here to give solid advice though, and that solid advice doesn't consist of eating piles of bacon and fast food.  We all made our case.



so try and give solid advice that a mother of a 15 year old could use to help her son.  and who is advocating piles of bacon and fast food? all we are saying is its not life or death here. he can eat fast food, bulk, and stay lean all at the same time. its not the best, but perfection isnt realistic right now is it?


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## ZECH (Nov 5, 2006)

durk said:


> my max dead is probably only 350 since I have only been doing deads for three months I mainly stick to BBing excersises so I dont care about strength



LMAO, Deadlifts are a staple bb exercise along with squats and bench press. Shows how much you know. Too bad you can't respond to this


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## Arnold (Nov 5, 2006)

durk said:


> I am a college students who is barely getting by I have a busy schedule and no time to eat 100% clean.
> You are a personal trainer? you do fuck all during the day try balancing school and a job rather then hanging out at the gym  train someone here and there and be able to make a meal everytime in between.
> 
> I bet 3 months after you started training you took a 1 week course at the ymca then started training people.



college student huh... do they not teach you how to use proper grammar?

when I was in college I maintained a 3.0 GPA, worked part time, trained 5-6 days per week, and competed in bodybuilding.


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## The Mom (Nov 5, 2006)

Alrighty, to clarify a few things and answer a few questions.  I know calling me Mom is weird, but I'm everyone's Mom.  Good idea to know the friends what they are all doing and where they are all going.  I'm the only one in my kids' life that encourages them to do anything, so when they have a dream, I do research and pursue it til they either get there or change their minds (which happens often, but it keeps them out of trouble and is cheaper than a defense lawyer these days)  I asked him what he lifts and he says before injury he squatted 305# and he Benches 195# now.  Whatever else they do every day in his class I have no idea.  Before injury he did the 40 in 4.8 seconds also.  Usually as a sophomore they are required to take a year of PE, but we also have the strength training option, and that's way more interesting than playing dodge ball with the girls your trying to score with if you know what I mean, and it also fullfills the weight room every day requirement for the sport you go out for, so that means no 6am or 7pm weightrooms every day.  He strained his quad at the beginning of the season, a week of PT and was back in action, but, didn't listen and when he hurt it this time, kept playing, play after play, and tore it up good.  Blood clot the size of the quad on top also.  He's been standing on the sidelines for about 5 weeks now in his jeans and it's killing him, especially when he was told 2 days after injury that it's too bad, he was going to start varsity defense 3 days later.  Lesson learned the hard way.  The reason I feel he should gain about 30# is because in my research of freshman/sophomore college linebackers his height, they are about 190# or more on average.  I also realize after much research that it's not necessarily bulk that makes the college player, he can pretty much stop anyone in their tracks already unless they are a lot and I mean a lot bigger, but, it's speed, how fast can you slip around the line to sack the quarterback or nail the runningback before he can get to the line of scrimmage.  If he's gonna shave some time off of his 40, he's gonna have to bulk up, to increase speed, and he now has a recordable major injury on his record, he's going to have to stretch more, lift more, be faster and hit harder than the other guy because of that to be taken seriously.  Nobody wants to put their neck out and offer a scholarship to anyone that's gonna be on the sidelines every other game.  I'm a nurse, so I know what a healthy diet should consist of, but when it comes to body building and bulking up, I have no clue what I should be encoraging him to eat, supplements he should be taking, etc.  We've already talked with the trainer and when done with this bout of PT he will have a complete stretching program to do before/during/after training/games and a running/sprinting program to build up his stamina and shave off some time for his sprints.  In reading all your posts, I"m getting the idea that he needs to be eating way more fruits/vegies, rice and lots of protein.  Like I said before he drinks gatorade/powerade almost exclusively, with the occasional pop.  He needs to drink more water.  A multivimin daily and probably some kind of protein shake after working out.  I like the idea of adding the hard boiled eggs to breakfast, he already (usually) has oatmeal and fruit, sometimes yougurt also.  He probably doesn't make the best food choices for lunch, or it's drivethru, and for supper, I cook, so it's usually a good balanced meal 3-4 nites a week.  The rest of those nites he's with his dad and it's casseroles or drivethru again.  He seems serious about rehabing from this injury and continuing his training and bulking up.  I've encouraged him to register and ask his own questions, but you know how much a 15 year old listens to Mom.  Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and tips, I really appreciate it, they are exactly what I was looking for when I posted this thread.  Hopefully, he'll take some of my (your) suggestions and eat a little better and train a little smarter from now on.  (one can only hope)


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## bio-chem (Nov 5, 2006)

The Mom said:


> Alrighty, to clarify a few things and answer a few questions.  I know calling me Mom is weird, but I'm everyone's Mom.  Good idea to know the friends what they are all doing and where they are all going.  I'm the only one in my kids' life that encourages them to do anything, so when they have a dream, I do research and pursue it til they either get there or change their minds (which happens often, but it keeps them out of trouble and is cheaper than a defense lawyer these days)  I asked him what he lifts and he says before injury he squatted 305# and he Benches 195# now.  Whatever else they do every day in his class I have no idea.  Before injury he did the 40 in 4.8 seconds also.  Usually as a sophomore they are required to take a year of PE, but we also have the strength training option, and that's way more interesting than playing dodge ball with the girls your trying to score with if you know what I mean, and it also fullfills the weight room every day requirement for the sport you go out for, so that means no 6am or 7pm weightrooms every day.  He strained his quad at the beginning of the season, a week of PT and was back in action, but, didn't listen and when he hurt it this time, kept playing, play after play, and tore it up good.  Blood clot the size of the quad on top also.  He's been standing on the sidelines for about 5 weeks now in his jeans and it's killing him, especially when he was told 2 days after injury that it's too bad, he was going to start varsity defense 3 days later.  Lesson learned the hard way.  The reason I feel he should gain about 30# is because in my research of freshman/sophomore college linebackers his height, they are about 190# or more on average.  I also realize after much research that it's not necessarily bulk that makes the college player, he can pretty much stop anyone in their tracks already unless they are a lot and I mean a lot bigger, but, it's speed, how fast can you slip around the line to sack the quarterback or nail the runningback before he can get to the line of scrimmage.  If he's gonna shave some time off of his 40, he's gonna have to bulk up, to increase speed, and he now has a recordable major injury on his record, he's going to have to stretch more, lift more, be faster and hit harder than the other guy because of that to be taken seriously.  Nobody wants to put their neck out and offer a scholarship to anyone that's gonna be on the sidelines every other game.  I'm a nurse, so I know what a healthy diet should consist of, but when it comes to body building and bulking up, I have no clue what I should be encoraging him to eat, supplements he should be taking, etc.  We've already talked with the trainer and when done with this bout of PT he will have a complete stretching program to do before/during/after training/games and a running/sprinting program to build up his stamina and shave off some time for his sprints.  In reading all your posts, I"m getting the idea that he needs to be eating way more fruits/vegies, rice and lots of protein.  Like I said before he drinks gatorade/powerade almost exclusively, with the occasional pop.  He needs to drink more water.  A multivimin daily and probably some kind of protein shake after working out.  I like the idea of adding the hard boiled eggs to breakfast, he already (usually) has oatmeal and fruit, sometimes yougurt also.  He probably doesn't make the best food choices for lunch, or it's drivethru, and for supper, I cook, so it's usually a good balanced meal 3-4 nites a week.  The rest of those nites he's with his dad and it's casseroles or drivethru again.  He seems serious about rehabing from this injury and continuing his training and bulking up.  I've encouraged him to register and ask his own questions, but you know how much a 15 year old listens to Mom.  Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and tips, I really appreciate it, they are exactly what I was looking for when I posted this thread.  Hopefully, he'll take some of my (your) suggestions and eat a little better and train a little smarter from now on.  (one can only hope)


damn. if more mothers took this much interest in their childrens lives.....great job mom


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## The Mom (Nov 5, 2006)

Thanks, I don't do it for the praise, it's just something that has to be done.  I'm selfish that way, #1 I really don't want to have to visit them in the local prison when I see my kids and #2 I really don't want to support them forever LOL.  My boy is my youngest, so it won't be long and I'll be a 41 year old empty nester.  Less than 3 years and they will all be gone out on their own.  Plus, being a single mom, the kid's gonna have to get a scholarship if you know what I mean.  College is expensive these days.


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## shiznit2169 (Nov 5, 2006)

Good lord, please split it up into paragraphs next time. I almost went blind reading all of that.


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## The Mom (Nov 5, 2006)

Oh comeon now I'm at work, overtime, to pay for all that protein you guys are telling me to feed him sheesh   I see venison is on one of the diet lists I checked out, hopefully we'll bag some this week?


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## PWGriffin (Nov 6, 2006)

For protein shakes....be sure to get something with a good mix of carbs and protein.  And he could actually get away with a second shake sometime during the day.


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## PWGriffin (Nov 6, 2006)

bio-chem said:


> have a lot of good results with 15 year olds do you?



WTF is this supposed to mean?  I'm more than confident in my ability to get results with anyone...If you can get results and improve a person's strength and mobility who is old and has serious impairments...I think I could handle a 15 year old with little to no orthopedic imbalances and primed for growing.


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## NeilPearson (Nov 6, 2006)

bio-chem said:


> guys you are all giving great advice, and it is obvious you know your stuff. clean bulk is abviously better.  now lets look at reality. Mom thinks its going to be difficult to get the kid to have a protien shake. so how about we start with baby steps in regards to advice.  try and give advice that will be easiest to follow for a 15 year old high schooler. Do you even remember what it was like to be that age in high school?  argueing "If he was really serious, then he would do it"  is kind of a joke. today he wants to play college football, in 2 months it might be wrestleing, and after that baseball. or maybe he wants to be a doctor, or fireman. my point being at 15 its hard to say what the future is going to hold.  Burger King is not going to hurt the kid.  I played on the same high school team and graduated with former NFL 1st round draft pick Tyler Brayton.  I saw him eat fast food, its not going to kill this kid to eat out with his friends.  lets try and give advice that understands the whole situation.



Please... I remember what 15 was like.  At 15 I was extremely motivated and idealistic.  Much more than I am now.  At 15 everything went to extremes.  Everything was black and white.  If I believed something it was THE truth.  15 year olds can be extremely motivated.  I know I played classical guitar at least 2 hours every and never missed a day even though I was going to school and teaching guitar from after school to around 9:00.  I could never do that now.

Now to mention how many 15 year olds (and younger) on this site seem to be able to read and learn this stuff and are extremely motivated.  Letting him do stuff half-assed because he is 15 is a lame excuse.


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## MCx2 (Nov 6, 2006)

NeilPearson said:


> Please... I remember what 15 was like. At 15 I was extremely motivated and idealistic. Much more than I am now. At 15 everything went to extremes. Everything was black and white. If I believed something it was THE truth. 15 year olds can be extremely motivated. I know I played classical guitar at least 2 hours every and never missed a day even though I was going to school and teaching guitar from after school to around 9:00. I could never do that now.
> 
> Now to mention how many 15 year olds (and younger) on this site seem to be able to read and learn this stuff and are extremely motivated. Letting him do stuff half-assed because he is 15 is a lame excuse.


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## Gazhole (Nov 6, 2006)

NeilPearson said:


> Please... I remember what 15 was like. At 15 I was extremely motivated and idealistic. Much more than I am now. At 15 everything went to extremes. Everything was black and white. If I believed something it was THE truth. 15 year olds can be extremely motivated. I know I played classical guitar at least 2 hours every and never missed a day even though I was going to school and teaching guitar from after school to around 9:00. I could never do that now.
> 
> Now to mention how many 15 year olds (and younger) on this site seem to be able to read and learn this stuff and are extremely motivated. Letting him do stuff half-assed because he is 15 is a lame excuse.



Im only 19, but even i remember how awesomely focused i was at 15. Now that ive started working full time and paying bills some of that is gone.

I used to carry an amp and a bass to the train station, ride to the next city on the line, and walk two miles with it to get to band practice for 2 hours, then do it all again in reverse.

And all because i believed my band were the best thing in the world.

If only id been this into training back then...


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## bio-chem (Nov 6, 2006)

PWGriffin said:


> WTF is this supposed to mean?  I'm more than confident in my ability to get results with anyone...If you can get results and improve a person's strength and mobility who is old and has serious impairments...I think I could handle a 15 year old with little to no orthopedic imbalances and primed for growing.



relaxe big guy and try not to be wound so tight. i was joking


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## bio-chem (Nov 6, 2006)

NeilPearson said:


> Please... I remember what 15 was like.  At 15 I was extremely motivated and idealistic.  Much more than I am now.  At 15 everything went to extremes.  Everything was black and white.  If I believed something it was THE truth.  15 year olds can be extremely motivated.  I know I played classical guitar at least 2 hours every and never missed a day even though I was going to school and teaching guitar from after school to around 9:00.  I could never do that now.
> 
> Now to mention how many 15 year olds (and younger) on this site seem to be able to read and learn this stuff and are extremely motivated.  Letting him do stuff half-assed because he is 15 is a lame excuse.




sometimes you are all so dense.  the question is coming from the mother, isnt it? you have as facts she feels it will be difficult to get the kid to drink a protien shake, and despite the fact she has told him to sign on here and learn for himself we have yet to see him.  so at what point do you think given these 2 facts this kid is going to immediately start taking rice and a chicken breast with him to school?

If a 15 year old kid gets on here and posts that he wants to gain weight, go to college for football, and will do anything to do it, then your posts to him would be right on. however your not posting to that situation are you? your posting to a mother who is trying to find out all that SHE can do to help her son. so maybe you should try and give advice for the appropriate situation.

as is, the advice of eating more meals a day containing protien/fuits/vegetables, adding a multivitamin/multimineral, and a protien shake after workout seems to be a good start.  Rome wasnt built in a day and neither will a 15 year olds training routine.


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## bio-chem (Nov 6, 2006)

NeilPearson said:


> Now to mention how many 15 year olds (and younger) on this site seem to be able to read and learn this stuff and are extremely motivated.  Letting him do stuff half-assed because he is 15 is a lame excuse.



and how many of those 15 year olds first post includes something about wanting to take steriods?


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## NeilPearson (Nov 6, 2006)

bio-chem said:


> sometimes you are all so dense.  the question is coming from the mother, isnt it? you have as facts she feels it will be difficult to get the kid to drink a protien shake, and despite the fact she has told him to sign on here and learn for himself we have yet to see him.  so at what point do you think given these 2 facts this kid is going to immediately start taking rice and a chicken breast with him to school?
> 
> If a 15 year old kid gets on here and posts that he wants to gain weight, go to college for football, and will do anything to do it, then your posts to him would be right on. however your not posting to that situation are you? your posting to a mother who is trying to find out all that SHE can do to help her son. so maybe you should try and give advice for the appropriate situation.
> 
> as is, the advice of eating more meals a day containing protien/fuits/vegetables, adding a multivitamin/multimineral, and a protien shake after workout seems to be a good start.  Rome wasnt built in a day and neither will a 15 year olds training routine.




Just because it doesn't appear that he is overly interested in learning doesn't mean we should change our advice.  The question is what should be done, not what does he want to hear.  His mom has said he is very commited to training to the point that he is hurting himself.  He just sounds a little misinformed and uneducated on the importance of nutrition.  Kids are quite impressionable and if he was pushed on the right track, he might decide to channel that energy that hurt himself into eating properly.  I don't believe he doesn't want to do it.  I just think he doesn't have the info he needs.  Which is why I think he should be encouraged to do some reading.

If he doesn't want to take this advice, I am not going to say, "That's alright do what you want and eat your fast food and it might work out."  That is not doing him any favors.


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## bio-chem (Nov 6, 2006)

NeilPearson said:


> Just because it doesn't appear that he is overly interested in learning doesn't mean we should change our advice.  The question is what should be done, not what does he want to hear.  His mom has said he is very commited to training to the point that he is hurting himself.  He just sounds a little misinformed and uneducated on the importance of nutrition.  Kids are quite impressionable and if he was pushed on the right track, he might decide to channel that energy that hurt himself into eating properly.  I don't believe he doesn't want to do it.  I just think he doesn't have the info he needs.  Which is why I think he should be encouraged to do some reading.
> 
> If he doesn't want to take this advice, I am not going to say, "That's alright do what you want and eat your fast food and it might work out."  That is not doing him any favors.



again thats not what im saying.  im not saying "eat fast food and it might work out"  im saying lets give good advice that his mother can do to help him. understanding she doesnt have total control of the situation.  if at the moment he cant get past the fast food then perhaps we can give advice that works around that untill he is ready/willing/able to get past that.  look at the perspective. we are giving advice to the mom not to the kid


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## PWGriffin (Nov 6, 2006)

bio-chem said:


> again thats not what im saying.  im not saying "eat fast food and it might work out"  im saying lets give good advice that his mother can do to help him. understanding she doesnt have total control of the situation.  if at the moment he cant get past the fast food then perhaps we can give advice that works around that untill he is ready/willing/able to get past that.  look at the perspective. we are giving advice to the mom not to the kid



So what is your advice then?

I don't understand why we are argueing.  We are in agreement (except dork).


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## bio-chem (Nov 6, 2006)

PWGriffin said:


> So what is your advice then?
> 
> I don't understand why we are argueing.  We are in agreement (except dork).



we are in agreement mostly. i just felt it was way overkill to tell the mom he cant eat fast food anymore, and on and on and on.

my advice: have him add an extra meal or 2 if possible. a protien shake after workout. a multivitamin/mineral daily. and add the fruit and vegetables


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## PWGriffin (Nov 6, 2006)

bio-chem said:


> we are in agreement mostly. i just felt it was way overkill to tell the mom he cant eat fast food anymore, and on and on and on.
> 
> my advice: have him add an extra meal or 2 if possible. a protien shake after workout. a multivitamin/mineral daily. and add the fruit and vegetables



agreed.  We are totally in agreement.  I'm just not going to say "oh fast food, we it's ok, your bulking."  As a professional I'm not going to say that.  I'm more inclined to say "that's not your best choice".  

The disagreement was with the endorsement of "heaping piles of bacon" and "fast food, yeah ur bulking"


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## bio-chem (Nov 6, 2006)

PWGriffin said:


> The disagreement was with the endorsement of "heaping piles of bacon" and "fast food, yeah ur bulking"



i dont remember saying that


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## PWGriffin (Nov 6, 2006)

bio-chem said:


> i dont remember saying that



you didn't...dorkus did.


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## The Mom (Nov 9, 2006)

Have been working for a few days straight here and unable to post.  Did the treadmill at PT on Tuesday and has been released to go back to the weight room and start out slow (HA!) which subsequently, Tuesday, the day after our football season ended, now if that isn't a kick in the ass?  We are going to visit GNC on Friday, and I'm going to try to get him to pick out a Protein Shake and Multivitimin.  I've been steering him towards more friuts and vegies.  Notwithstanding the visits to the drive thru, he already eats about 5-6 times a day.  Hopefully he'll continue to progress back to his #305 in the weight room.  He's supposed to also be continuing on a running program.  Since it's starting onto winter here, I'm steering him towards the YMCA.  I'll keep you guys posted and hopefully he'll bulk up a little, see his success and get more serious.


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## bio-chem (Nov 9, 2006)

keep posting and keep us up to date


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## The Mom (Nov 10, 2006)

I'll be sure and keep you guys updated, this next week will be his real first week at being back at training.  He's deer hunting this weekend, opening day tomorrow.  Leg is feeling great and he did some light weights back in the weight room this week after being released Tuesday.  Everyone have a great weekend.


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## joesmooth20 (Nov 11, 2006)

don't buy anything from GNC it is very overpriced. If you like I or most of us on here can direct you to the best sites online.


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## PWGriffin (Nov 11, 2006)

what kind of running program will he be implementing??  If he has a healthy metabolism, but needs to put on 30-40lbs in a short amount of time, alot of running would not be optimal.


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## The Mom (Nov 12, 2006)

The PT gave him the running program.  #1 he needs to build up his stamina/endurance and #2 he needs to increase his speed and drop a few 
10ths off his 40 and #3 he needs to recondition his thigh to be able to do sprints and cutting while sprinting.  It's to get him back into the condition he was preinjury and to help him keep stretched out when he does his sprints etc. that's how he injured himself in the first place.  As for GNC, we live in the middle of Nebraska, only have a GNC within driving distance, I wanted to try something there before getting a bunch of stuff online and having it go to waste etc. if he doesn't keep up with the program so to speak.


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## P-funk (Nov 12, 2006)

If he needs to drop time off of his 40 then why the hell is he working on endurance?  It is counterproductive to his goal.  Your son is a football linebacker, not a marathon runner.  Plays in football take place in about 5yrds and 8sec.  He needs to be working on 10yrd. accelerations and starting speed if he wants to improve his 40 and improve his ability to get off the ball and get after QBs and RBs.  Working on endurance will program your child to move slow, it works the wrong motor units and it is completely different mechanics than sprinting is.  You get what you train for.  If you want your child to be worse, have him run distances and train endurance.  Otherwise, stick to being specific to the activity demands of the sport.


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## PWGriffin (Nov 12, 2006)

P-funk said:


> If you want your child to be worse, have him run distances and train endurance..



alright mr boyle


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## DiGiTaL (Nov 12, 2006)

steriods ;D makes reaction go faster.


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## Trouble (Nov 12, 2006)

Plyometrics are needed here, explosive movements that parallel his weight training.  However, as he is putting on mass, he will need to make sure that his connective and joint condition is top notch, or he will end up with a series of minor injuries that will hamper his progress.

Therefore, its not just what he eats, but the careful use of supplements that help optimize recovery.

Squatting heavy has its benefits..but also its drawbacks.  He needs to work on core strength and lateral conditioning to avoid lets say, side impact injury.

To stand out among recruits, its really going to be technique as well.  I hope your kid is sharp.  Fast and strong are only two of four assets he had better be well endowed in, if he is to excel and secure himself a free ride through college.

He needs to understand gamesmanship and strategy - for this, he needs to exercise his mind in school. And he needs to understand the principles of self respect, dedication and perseverance.

For that last asset type, he needs a male role model and mentor.  Not necessarily his coach, since there are potential conflicts of interest.


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## The Mom (Nov 13, 2006)

Well, he did get his deer this weekend, so he's happy about that.  I understand where your coming from P-funk on why does he need endurance.  Basically, these boys, mine in particular, are playing ironman football.  Offense and Defense, for most of the game if not all of it, if it's close.  He also receives on the kickoff team.  Hence, why he needs to build up his endurance.  As for the 40, he has been doing 4.8, but he really needs to cut some seconds off of that.  He plays runningback on offense, and he needs to be a little faster to keep ahead of the pack.  As for his linebacking skills, he's good.  He can eye the ball well, see where it's going and most of the time he's there and either makes the tackle or assists.  He's also a good sacker, because he can get through  a 2nd rate line quick and usually that's all she wrote as far as that goes.  Next year, barring complications, he'll most likely start defensive linebacker on varsity and be about #3-4 runningback on Varsity.  As a junior, he'll start both offense and defense and will be ironmanning it most of the time for JV games.  If he's to reach his goal of college ball, he's really going to need to put on about 25 or more pounds (at the minimum at his height now, more if he starts growing again) of bulk to be similar in size of his teammates and opposition.  He went to the weight room this week, did some squats with "just he plates" (about #135 he says) and his hamstrings are now killing him, he's not surprised, just disappointed, "that's what I get for being out of the weight room for 6 weeks" according to him.  It'll come, cause above all he doesn't want to strain much less tear anything again.  He's working on the running program to work himself up to full speed sprints with cuts added in.  And, of course he's still doing his upper body training in the weight room also.  Football is over now, so he'll be training on his own.


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## P-funk (Nov 13, 2006)

what colletes are recruiting him?

even still....he needs to improve his endurace via football specific interval training....NOT, long/slow duration running.  You are missing the point that I am trying to make.  He needs to be doing proper interval work (which can positively enhance his endurance).

He needs to be working on deceleration for his hamstrings as well...squatting is good....RDLs are great.  Get someone to coach him on power cleans and DB snatches or Close Grip snatches.


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## Trouble (Nov 13, 2006)

Patrick, I doubt this kid knows squat about training.  I also doubt he did any kind of proper warm up and stretching, which is one of the reasons his hams are killing him.

The kid needs to register here, get active on the forum and start asking questions.

Pfft, its not like we don't have a lot of guys who have played ball in highschool and college.

Having Mom as interlocutor on training and fitness to avoid injury issues isn't going to cut it.


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## P-funk (Nov 13, 2006)

That is true too.  His technique on all exercises probably needs to be assessed (squatting, benching, deadlifting, etc.) as well as his technique when sprinting (mechanics) and cutting (creating positive angles).

This his offseason.  He needs to now take some time to work on General Physical Preparedness (GPP).  Looking at the things YOU are saying that he needs.....hypertrophy (muscle gain) and conditioning.  Start there.  I would say if he is already playing ironman football, his conditioning is already pretty good.  So, for his first few cycles of training, have him train his conditioning and a retention level (ie, the minimal amount of interval training he can do to maintain his current base level) as this will prevent him from expending to much energy and not being able to put on size.  Then look at his training program.  He needs to be some hypertrophic specific lifting if he wants to put on muscle mass.  At the same time, he can't loose the strength that he already has, as well as his power output.  So, you need to train the quality that you need (hypertrophy), but make sure to have some tension work in there (to help with the strength) and some power work in there (olympic lifts work well) to maintain the power.   You can program in 4-6 week blocks and go from there.


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## bio-chem (Nov 13, 2006)

could be a little early for recruiters dont you guys think?


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## P-funk (Nov 13, 2006)

also, what about movement assessment?  What about testing his squat?  How strong is he?  What about testing his power?  vertical jump?  How are they timing that 40yrd dash?  High football coaches are notorious for having sloppy testing methods and fudging numbers to make their players look as good as possible.  there is a lot of 'dishonesty' in the testing protocol.


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## P-funk (Nov 13, 2006)

bio-chem said:


> could be a little early for recruiters dont you guys think?



a junior is is still sometimes underdeveloped (they still have growing to do).

a 4.8 forty (if it is legit) for linebacker at that level, should raise eyebrows.

When I was in high school, playing baseball, the Colorado Rockies and Florida Marlins were one season away from their first Majo Leauge seasons.  They had scouts at our games watching some of the guys, and we were only sophmores.


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## The Mom (Nov 13, 2006)

No, it's not to early bio-chem.  He's already contacted all the neighboring Division I and II colleges so they "know he's interested" and now he has to train up so he has a good junior year, so they will pay attention to him his senior year.  This is Nebraska.  There isn't very much here and one common dream of Nebraska boys is to play football, so everybody and their dog thinks they can do it.  Our school has an agressive program, we get into the playoffs every year and usually have several all conference/state players and usually 1-3 a year go on to play Division I and II ball for college, mostly Division II.  If he has a chance at this, he needs to step it up now and get ahead of the pack.


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## P-funk (Nov 14, 2006)

send him down to AZ for a few months.  I'll train him.


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## CowPimp (Nov 14, 2006)

Hey P, can you recommend some good reading material regarding assessing sprint mechanics?  Perhaps something a little more in depth that the NSCA-CPT textbook, for example.  Maybe there is information in High-Performance Sports Conditioning I should review?


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## P-funk (Nov 14, 2006)

CowPimp said:


> Hey P, can you recommend some good reading material regarding assessing sprint mechanics?  Perhaps something a little more in depth that the NSCA-CPT textbook, for example.  Maybe there is information in High-Performance Sports Conditioning I should review?



High performance sprots conditioning has a chapter on it.

Didn't I send you a copy of the Charlie Francis Training Systems book?  I am pretty sure he talks about it there.

Dale has a few other books you might want to check out too.


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## The Mom (Feb 3, 2007)

Well it's been awhile since I posted, son's leg has healed well, he's squatting #365 now without too much effort.  More and more power in all his other lifting, got him eating better and he's been working outside a lot more.  So, all is well, hopefully he'll continue to increase his size and stamina.  Thanks for everyones advice, it helped this "dumb" mom gain a some new knowledge so I could give him some good advice.


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