# Do Less Gain More?



## ben1793 (Jan 10, 2012)

Sorry about the new post but this is just confusing me...for some reason people are saying do less gain more, I understand people are busy with work and other stuff so working out 3 days a week with compound moves is good for them.
I am a beginner and just cant get my mind around how working less gains more...like I said I am a beginner I workout 3 days a week now because people say the body needs rest, I have the time and the motivation to workout 5 or even more days a week, if I could find a plan that would only target one muscle group at a time and not go near any other muscles for the day I would go for it, I just dont understand, muscles need rest to grow so if you only do one musclegroup a day and eaten ALLOT more than when working out 3 days a week wouldnt that give you more gains? I mean scientificly, you are still geting your rest, working out making sure it is under 45 mins your testrone levels are allot higher than 3 days workouts and you are geting enough food for repair.

I only ask think because I was lifting heavy for 4 days a week when I FIRST started and recovered fine, ye sure I was a little sore but my workout routine wasnt the best and still recovered...
PLEASE HELP ME I AM SO CONFUSED...


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## Usealittle (Jan 10, 2012)

If your new to workin out you can push harder then someone that's been doin it for years... The reason is it's new to your body, and the body has no idea what your doin to it so it will respond and recover faster due to that fact.

The fact is most people that have been doin it for some time do overtrain! I'd say 95% of people overtrain. I'd say for the first year or 2 do what you want and your body will be able to keep up. That being said you still need to feed yourself and rest. The younger you are the better this works.


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## ben1793 (Jan 10, 2012)

EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING! 
If I could find a decent 5 day or more workout plan, I will stuff myself with food and only work the muscle group 1 day a week, it makes sense to me...I mean more days <45mins in the gym = higher testrone levels meaning better muscle growth,
Anyone know a good 5 day workout split with just a barbell and bench? I am geting dumbells soon so a few dumbell exercises in there would go nice too, also I am eating 2700 cals on 3 day workout should I up it to about 3300ish if I do 5 days a week?
I can workout monday,tuesday,wednesday,friday,saturday,sunday if a 5 day split I will prefer wednesday off since all other days I can work straight after breakfast.


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## justhav2p (Jan 10, 2012)

my 7 day workout program

MONDAY
Chest/Shoulders/Traps

Flat Bench
Incline Bench
Decline Bench
Military DB Press
Side Lat Raises
Shrugs , front and back 

Tuesday
Back

Deads
BB Row
DB Row
Lat Pulldown
Row

Wednesday
Abs Cardio

Thursday
Legs

Squat
Calf Raises
Leg raises
Leg Pulldowns

Friday
Bi's/Tri's

Inner Bi curl
OutterBi curl
Hammer Curl
Skull Crusher
Rope Pulldown
Close Grip Bench
1 other Tricep workout

Saturday
Abs/Cardio

Sunday 
Cardio

I try to do cardio everyday but when going with my girl, she bitches about how long we are at the gym.....

All compound lifts I do a 5x5 routine... isolated muscle groups I do a 3x8 .

At least stck with the monday-friday, the weekend cardio and extra ab days is just what  I personally need because that is my areas of slacking


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## ben1793 (Jan 10, 2012)

The workout has to many ab and cardio days for me, will this work too?

chest:
barbell bench 3 sets
incline db 3 sets
DB Flys 3 sets

bis:
standing barbell curl 2 sets
supinated db curl 2 sets
hammer curl 2 sets

legs:
squats 3 sets
lunges 3 sets
calves raises 3 sets 

shoulders:
db shoulder press 3 sets
upright rows 3 sets
side lat raises 2 sets
rear lat raises 2 sets

tris:
close grip bench 2 sets
skull crushers 2 sets
bent over tri extensions 2 sets

back:
dead lifts 3 sets
bent over barbell rows 3 sets
pullups 2 sets

I think that will only target the muscle groups 1 or 2 times a week and enough time to recover, will this work? Please tell me what I can change if you see anything wrong, also the lat raises get the triceps too? just wondering because tri day is after shoulder day.


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## justhav2p (Jan 10, 2012)

ben1793 said:


> The workout has to many ab and cardio days for me, will this work too?
> 
> chest:
> barbell bench* 5 sets*
> ...


 

Looks fine.. You can always pair up shoulders with chest. Or Chest with Tri's. Or Back with Bi's...

I like to keep bi's and Tri's away from Back and Chest because he lightly hit them with those compound movements and a seperate day for them is my fav...

Just run it for a week, If you feel like on chest day your only in the gym for 25 mins, add in another workout to that day that works with what your doing.


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## ben1793 (Jan 10, 2012)

OK thanks  should I up my protein too? I am 140lbs 5ft10 2700 cals but thinking about uping since I am going to be doing 5 days.


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## ben1793 (Jan 10, 2012)

So if I workout through that week heavy weights doing sets of 8-12 reps per workout and feel like I have recovered will this benefit me more than something like starting strength an stronglifts 5x5?

Also how would you edit the program, I mean the days because you said back shouldnt go with bi/tri and how would you change it to 5 days?
I was thinking of trying this: 

Chest
Back
OFF
Shoulders
Legs
Arms(Tri/Biceps)
Rest

Will that be to soon for the arms then 1 day then chest and only legs between shoulders and arms?


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## justhav2p (Jan 10, 2012)

ben1793 said:


> So if I workout through that week heavy weights doing sets of 8-12 reps per workout and feel like I have recovered will this benefit me more than something like starting strength an stronglifts 5x5?


 This all depends on you. Try out one way for a month and try out the other way for a month and see which best suits you. Either way you choose, when it gets too easy or your doing more then proposed reps, *up your weight.*


UP YOUR PROTIEN and TOTAL CALORIES. The only way to grow is to feed your muscles more then they are used to getting. 

Now that you figured out your training, I think you need to dial down your diet to gain significantly.


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## pebble (Jan 10, 2012)

Usealittle said:


> If your new to workin out you can push harder then someone that's been doin it for years... The reason is it's new to your body, and the body has no idea what your doin to it so it will respond and recover faster due to that fact.



Umm ... WTF?  This is incredibly incorrect. People that are new to training incur more sarcolemma damage as a result of training because the muscle tissue has not yet adapted to the stimulus (tension).  This is the exact reason why new trainees have higher protein requirements than experienced trainees.  

Just because they are neurologically inexperienced, thus making it unlikely they will over stimulate their PNS  (not CNS) does not mean they should train more.  Their bodies still need time to rebuild the tissues they damaged.


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## pebble (Jan 10, 2012)

ben1793 said:


> So if I workout through that week heavy weights doing sets of 8-12 reps per workout and feel like I have recovered will this benefit me more than something like starting strength an stronglifts 5x5?




Based off of the fact that you are beginner I would take advantage of the fact that you will adapt neurologically very fast for the first 3-6 months.  That means focusing on linear periodization much like any 5x5 (bill star, stronglifts, rips) training program have in place.  Once your body has slowed on the neurological adaptations try moving to something that focus more on the muscle side of the equation.  You will be bigger and stronger which will allow you to create more tension within the muscle resulting in a better chance of stimulating hypertrophy.


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## ben1793 (Jan 10, 2012)

So your saying the 5 day split wont work and a 3 day 5x5 will?
I thought you work BIG eat BIG rest BIG and you get BIG, this is all I was told so I tried the 4 day split and felt good, was thinking if I can recover from a 5 day split I would be geting more out of it than 3 day workout? thats just what I am thinking please correct me if I am wrong before I start messing up


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## pebble (Jan 10, 2012)

ben1793 said:


> So your saying the 5 day split wont work and a 3 day 5x5 will?
> I thought you work BIG eat BIG rest BIG and you get BIG, this is all I was told so I tried the 4 day split and felt good, was thinking if I can recover from a 5 day split I would be geting more out of it than 3 day workout? thats just what I am thinking please correct me if I am wrong before I start messing up



It is not as simple as have you expressed.  

Based off of the time course of physiological adaptations of people new to exercise I would stick with a method of linear periodization.  It maximizes your potential for later down the road.  

You will still be working hard, eating a caloric surplus, and providing your body with enough recovery.


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## Usealittle (Jan 10, 2012)

pebble said:


> Umm ... WTF?  This is incredibly incorrect. People that are new to training incur more sarcolemma damage as a result of training because the muscle tissue has not yet adapted to the stimulus (tension).  This is the exact reason why new trainees have higher protein requirements than experienced trainees.
> 
> Just because they are neurologically inexperienced, thus making it unlikely they will over stimulate their PNS  (not CNS) does not mean they should train more.  Their bodies still need time to rebuild the tissues they damaged.




..... How's that. The first 3 years of training I put on 45lean lbs not knowing what iwas doing, as for working out. And now the last 10 years have not put on anywhere near that much, maybe about half that. Also iv been training my wifes son for 2 years after he got cured of cancer and iv put 25lbs of very lean muscle on the kid...... And he don't even work out as hard as I think he should.

I'm point is when you new to it it comes easy! After your body knows what's goin on and after changing workouts and adding day doin differant body parts together.... It's time to slow down cuz your most likely overtraining. I don't know any guy that wants to get big that doesn't overtrain to some degree...


Your gonna come back with some doctor jargon explaining it differant but my point remains the same.  You have your point I have mine and that's how I see it.


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## ben1793 (Jan 10, 2012)

I just simply used my common sense, think 2 people one works out 3 days and other works out 5 days, whos going to get stronger faster? I would have thought the 5 days sine he is spending 2 more days working on building up.
Also I was told the 5x5 program concentrates more on strength less on building mass, that is why I was kind of put off.


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## ben1793 (Jan 10, 2012)

Also Justhave2p, my callories at the moment are at 2700-2800 350g carbs 80g fat 140g protein, I am 140lbs 5ft10 18 years old.


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## Usealittle (Jan 10, 2012)

Dude that was when I gained all the weight.... Workout hard and fast however you want and you will grow. Your hormone levels will never be higher.


For weight and size 3-5sets of 8-12reps, sometimes higher and sometimes lower but for the most part you can't go wrong in that range.

Just keep it simple and move weight.....


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## pebble (Jan 10, 2012)

ben1793 said:


> Also Justhave2p, my callories at the moment are at 2700-2800 350g carbs 80g fat 140g protein, I am 140lbs 5ft10 18 years old.




You are getting enough protein.  Based on your numbers its even a little high (you need 108, but consume 140) for the sake of growth.  In new trainees peer reviewed research shows that there is no added benefit (nitrogen retention) above 1.7g/kg of body weight.  However, if you are eating that much just because you like protein (like most do) don't worry too much about it.

Your kcal may be a little low to add weight, but start there.  If you are not adding weight add 250 kcal a day for a couple weeks.  If the scale is moving up stay there until it stops.  Whenever it hasn't moved in a couple weeks toss on another 250kcal.  Always give it at least two weeks to make sure that you can acquire an average weight, not just daily (it can fluctuate too much).


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## pebble (Jan 10, 2012)

Usealittle said:


> ..... How's that. The first 3 years of training I put on 45lean lbs not knowing what iwas doing, as for working out. And now the last 10 years have not put on anywhere near that much, maybe about half that. Also iv been training my wifes son for 2 years after he got cured of cancer and iv put 25lbs of very lean muscle on the kid...... And he don't even work out as hard as I think he should.
> 
> I'm point is when you new to it it comes easy! After your body knows what's goin on and after changing workouts and adding day doin differant body parts together.... It's time to slow down cuz your most likely overtraining. I don't know any guy that wants to get big that doesn't overtrain to some degree...
> 
> ...




I agree, when you are new it does come easy.  But the neurological adoptions come easiest.  So take advantage and get as strong as possible at that time.  When that is leveled out transition the focus to hypertrophy specific training. 

And you're right, I could come back with jargon and the research to back it up, but it wouldn't help in this case.  This kid doesn't have the basic exercise physiology/ scientific method knowledge required to read it yet.  It would be gibberish to him.


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## justhav2p (Jan 10, 2012)

ben1793 said:


> I just simply used my common sense, think 2 people one works out 3 days and other works out 5 days, whos going to get stronger faster? I would have thought the 5 days sine he is spending 2 more days working on building up.
> Also I was told the 5x5 program concentrates more on strength less on building mass, that is why I was kind of put off.


 
5x5 = mass and strength... never stay with the same routine for too long... switching it up keeps the body guessing = growth


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## stewy101 (Jan 10, 2012)

First thing you want to do is figure out what works for you as an individual. You can workout a 3 day week but trying to get all of what you need in that time especially if you want to do legs is very hard. I learned a long time ago to do a 4 day split routine that spreads all your body parts out through the week so you are only working 1 body part at a time. And it is spread out just right so that it wont interfere with the push and pull of repeating exercises that can use the same muscles more than you want in the same day. 

They will be spread out through the week to give you and them just the right amount of time to rest and heal before you use them again. Example: you don't want to do chest and triceps on the same day because even though you are primarily exercising your chest, you are pushing your triceps hard to do them. so there you are using the pushing affect. Example 2: Never do back and biceps on the same day. When you work your back you are also using your bicep muscles to do so with the pulling affect.

You want to spread these body parts and exercise apart far enough in the week so you get at least 3 days rest before you hit them hard again.

This is my 4 day a week split routine:

Mondays: Back and Abs with 30 t0 45 minutes cardio of my choice.

Tuesday: Shoulders, Triceps and Abs with 30 t0 45 minutes cardio of my choice.

Wednesday OFF

Thursday: Full Leg routine including Calves, NO Abs

Friday: Chest, Biceps and Abs with 30 t0 45 minutes cardio of my choice.

Weekend OFF

This is just what I do and what works for me. Just remember whatever routine you do make sure to only work 1 body part a week (except abs if you want) so that you give them enough time to rest , heal and grow while you are feeding the hell out of them. You do NOT make your muscles grow while you are in the gym working them. You are breaking them down. They ONLY grow after you leave the gym and give them time to rest and heal while you are feeding the hell out of them. Then and ONLY then will they repair themselves and come back bigger, badder and stronger.


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## stewy101 (Jan 10, 2012)

ben1793 said:


> Also Justhave2p, my callories at the moment are at 2700-2800 350g carbs 80g fat 140g protein, I am 140lbs 5ft10 18 years old.



You need to be getting at least:

6 meals a day spread out every 3 hours.

1. Protein= Body weight times 1.25 to 1.50 = 
    140 times 1.25= 175 grams 
    140 times 1.50= 210 grams 
    divided by 6 meals = 30 to 35 grams of protein at every meal.

2. carbohydrates= 240 to 300 grams per day for your size and weight.
  240 and  300 divided by 6 = 40 to 50 grams of carbs at each meal.

3. Fats= between 40 and 60 grams of fat each day.
  40 to 60 divided by 6 = just stay between 6 to 10 grams of fat per meal.

Don't worry if you are not exactly on the numbers when you eat as long as you are close.

 Eat healthy and exercise smart and I guarantee you will see results in no time.


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## BP2000 (Jan 10, 2012)

ben1793 said:


> Also Justhave2p, my callories at the moment are at 2700-2800 350g carbs 80g fat 140g protein, I am 140lbs 5ft10 18 years old.


 

You need more protein. Eat 1 lb. per weight that you would like to be at. If you want to be 180lb. eat at least 180grams. Personally I would eat 200-250 if I were you and keep carb's around 200 and fats around 60. Healthy fat's like Nuts, Peanut Butter, Avacado, EFA, Krill oil, etc. 

Carb's are complex carbs like brown rice or Yam's. Protein is chicken, london broil, turkey, protein shakes. 

Most ppl when they start out overtrain. Get a 5X5 workout plan and follow the plan. It will build the mass you want. Then you will have to find another plan because not all plans work forever. After 5X5 do a nice hypertrophy plan 8-12 rep's.

Most guy's when they start out just workout bicep's and chest.  Do a 5X5 program and follow it to the T.  Bench, Squats, deadlift's, cleans.  Find video's on the net to find out the proper form and follow the program.


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## pebble (Jan 10, 2012)

stewy101 said:


> You need to be getting at least:
> 
> 6 meals a day spread out every 3 hours.
> 
> ...



*Such bullshit here.  *

Why 6 meals a day?  to keep insulin stable?  What about the other side of the equation, nutrient pulsing to encourage the body to draw nitrogen into the muscle along with glucose?

Show me some peer reviewed articles that state a person needs to consume that much protein while exercising?  I can put up research that shows your number is close to double what is needed for adequate nitrogen retention (+ive balance).  1

Why are carbs being limited?  They should be the most flexible variable to ensure he meets his caloric needs.  

And why so little fat?  Hormones are made with a lipid backbone.  Research has show low fat diet's (<30% , you suggested <20%) result in less serum androgens.2  On top of that cell walls (including muscle) are made stronger and heal faster as a result of cholesterol being embedded into the sarcolemma.

Oh and by the way you dropped the kids kcal consumption down by 1-200kcal a day.  Thats a great idea when one of his goals is hypertrophy.


1 Protein requirements and muscle mass/strength changes during intensive training in novice bodybuilders
2 Low-fat high-fiber diet decreased se... [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI


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## Usealittle (Jan 10, 2012)

pebble said:


> I agree, when you are new it does come easy.  But the neurological adoptions come easiest.  So take advantage and get as strong as possible at that time.  When that is leveled out transition the focus to hypertrophy specific training.
> 
> And you're right, I could come back with jargon and the research to back it up, but it wouldn't help in this case.  This kid doesn't have the basic exercise physiology/ scientific method knowledge required to read it yet.  It would be gibberish to him.




If you have it post it up..... I'll take a look at it. Also the OP can ggudge for himself.


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## stewy101 (Jan 11, 2012)

pebble said:


> *Such bullshit here.  *
> 
> Why 6 meals a day?  to keep insulin stable?  What about the other side of the equation, nutrient pulsing to encourage the body to draw nitrogen into the muscle along with glucose?
> 
> ...



Are you looking to gain Fatty weight or Lean Muscle weight?

DIETS FOR BUILDING LEAN MUSCLE:

To gain weight of any type, you must consume more calories than you burn through exercise and daily activities. If your goal is to gain weight in the form of lean muscle mass, choose the right balance of calories to give your body the fuel to build muscle. Combine this with a strength training, muscle building exercise routine, and you will see the muscles begin to build.

Overall Calories:
Finding the right amount of calories for your current size is the key to building lean muscle and not adding fat.  recommend consuming 18 to 20 calories per pound of body weight each training day if you are trying to gain lean muscle mass, dropping to 12 to 14 calories per pound on rest days. These calories should be divided amongst six to eight small meals.

Protein:
Protein provides the body with amino acids, which are the building blocks of muscle tissue.  recommend consuming 40 to 60 g of protein at each meal. Sources of protein include lean cuts of meat such as chicken or turkey breast, pork, low-fat dairy products, and nuts or nut butters. You may also use a protein powder to make a protein shake if you need additional protein at a meal. Keep your protein intake the same on days you train and days you rest, because your muscles need the protein to repair themselves after training.

Carbohydrates:
Carbohydrates provide energy for your workouts. Aim for 40 to 80 g of carbohydrates at each meal on days you train, for a total of between 240 and 480. On days you do not train, aim for between 100 and 200 g of carbohydrates. Choose carbohydrates that are high in fiber because these help your digestive system to function at its best. High-fiber sources of carbohydrate include fruits, vegetables and whole grains.

Fats:
Fats also provide energy for workouts, but too much fat can lead to gaining fat tissue instead of lean muscle tissue. Recommend 5 to 10 g per meal come from healthy fats, including fatty fish, olive oil or nuts. These healthy fats will help fuel muscle growth and aid in your energy levels while you work out.  Recommend keeping your fat intake to 15 to 20 percent of your daily diet.


DIETS FOR GAINING FATTY WEIGHT:

1. Eat Tons of carbohydrates a day.

2. Eat tons of fat a day.

3. Eat a low protein diet each day.


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## justhav2p (Jan 11, 2012)

Ben,

Take a look at the online journals as well... Those guys either have a great routine or are getting help on their routine. ...


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## stewy101 (Jan 11, 2012)

ben1793 said:


> So if I workout through that week heavy weights doing sets of 8-12 reps per workout and feel like I have recovered will this benefit me more than something like starting strength an stronglifts 5x5?
> 
> Also how would you edit the program, I mean the days because you said back shouldnt go with bi/tri and how would you change it to 5 days?
> I was thinking of trying this:
> ...


First thing you want to do is figure out what works for you as an individual. You can workout a 3 day week but trying to get all of what you need in that time especially if you want to do legs is very hard. I learned a long time ago to do a 4 day split routine that spreads all your body parts out through the week so you are only working 1 body part at a time. And it is spread out just right so that it wont interfere with the push and pull of repeating exercises that can use the same muscles more than you want in the same day. 

They will be spread out through the week to give you and them just the right amount of time to rest and heal before you use them again. Example: you don't want to do chest and triceps on the same day because even though you are primarily exercising your chest, you are pushing your triceps hard to do them. so there you are using the pushing affect. Example 2: Never do back and biceps on the same day. When you work your back you are also using your bicep muscles to do so with the pulling affect.

You want to spread these body parts and exercise apart far enough in the week so you get at least 3 days rest before you hit them hard again.

This is my 4 day a week split routine:

Mondays: Back and Abs with 30 t0 45 minutes cardio of my choice.

Tuesday: Shoulders, Triceps and Abs with 30 t0 45 minutes cardio of my choice.

Wednesday OFF

Thursday: Full Leg routine including Calves, NO Abs

Friday: Chest, Biceps and Abs with 30 t0 45 minutes cardio of my choice.

Weekend OFF

This is just what I do and what works for me. Just remember whatever routine you do make sure to only work 1 body part a week (except abs if you want) so that you give them enough time to rest , heal and grow while you are feeding the hell out of them. You do NOT make your muscles grow while you are in the gym working them. You are breaking them down. They ONLY grow after you leave the gym and give them time to rest and heal while you are feeding the hell out of them. Then and ONLY then will they repair themselves and come back bigger, badder and stronger.


My workout regimen is bast on a 4 day a week split routine.

My workout days are Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday.

I switch All these exercises for every body part every other week to insure proper muscle growth. I also do a 5-10 minute warm-up on the treadmill before each workout day and 45 minutes cardio after (2 days a week).

1. Mondays= Back, Abs, Cardio. 

Back routine consist of 2 primary and 2 secondary exercises with one warm up set before:

(Sets) = 3-4  each    (Reps) = 8 to 10  heavy

Abs routine consist of 2 primary exercises.

(Sets) = 3 each       (Reps) = 15 to 20

Cardio consist of 45 minuets treadmill  and or Bike.


  A. Primary examples for back: 

    : Bent over barbell or dumbbell row.
    : Dead lift-barbell
    : Row-cable with v-handle
    : Row-Machine
    : Row-T-Bar
    : Chin Ups 
    : Dumbbell Pullovers



    B. Secondary examples for back:

    : Good Morning Barbell.
    : Lat Pull-down Front Or Back.
    : Stiff-Arm Lat Pull-Down
    : Reverse-Grip Row-Cable With Strait Bar.
    : Hyperextension-Machine 
    : Shrugs-Barbell and or Dumbbell.


    C. Primary examples for Abs:

    : Abe Crunch machine
    : Hanging Leg Raises
    : Hanging-Weighted Knee Raises



2. Tuesday= Shoulders, Triceps, Abs

Shoulders consist of 2 primary and 2 secondary exercises with 1 warm-up set before:

(Sets) = 3-4 each   (Reps) = 8 to 10 heavy

Triceps Consist Of  2  Primary And One Secondary 
Exercise:

(Sets) =  3 each     (Reps) = 10 to 12 heavy

Abs routine consist of 2 primary exercises.

(Sets) = 3 each       (Reps) = 15 to 20

A. Primary Examples for shoulders: 

    : Front Military Press-Barbell
    : Rear Military Press-Barbell
    : Shoulder Press -Dumbbell
    : Shoulder Press- Machine (Variation)
    : Arnold Press-Dumbbell
    : Upright row barbell or cable.

   B. secondary examples for shoulders: 

    : Face Pulls- cable with rope.
    : Front raises- dumbbell or cable.
    : side raises- dumbbell,cable or machine.
    : standing or seated bent-over raises-dumbbell
    : reverse fly-pec deck

   C. Primary examples for Triceps: 

    : Narrow-Grip Bench Press-Barbell
    : Triceps Dip Machine
    : Scullcrushers-Barbell
    : Overhead Triceps Extension-Dumbbell, Cable Or Machine
    : Two-Arm Cable Push-Down-Strait Bar
    : One-Arm Cable Push-Down

   D. Secondary Examples For Triceps:

    : Kickback-Dumbbell Or Cable
    : Bent-Over Cable Triceps Extension-Strait Bar
    : Reverse Grip Cable Pull-Down-Strait Bar
    : Triceps Push-Down-Rope

   E. Primary examples for Abs:

    : Abs Crunch machine
    : Hanging Leg Raises
    : Hanging-Weighted Knee Raises




3. Thursday= Full leg workout, No Abs, No Cardio.

Upper legs consist of 2 primary and 2 secondary.

(Sets) = 4- primary  3- secondary    (Reps) = 8 to 10 heavy

Calves consist of 2 primary

(Sets) = 3-4     (Reps) = 8 to 10 heavy



A. Primary-Upper leg examples:

    : Squat-Barbell And Or Dumbbell
    : Squat-Machine
    : Front Squat-Barbell
    : Hack Squat-Machine
    : Leg Press-Machine
    : Lunge-Barbell
    : Step-Up-Barbell

  B. Secondary-Upper Leg examples:

    : Leg Extension-Machine
    : Braced Squat
    : Lying Hamstring Curl-Machine
    : Seated Hamstring Curl-Machine
    : Prone Hamstring Curl-Dumbbell
    : Standing Hamstring Curl-Machine
    : Stiff-Legged Dead Lift-Barbell

  C. Calves Examples:

    : Standing Calf Raise-Barbell
    : Standing Calf Raise-Machine
    : Seated Calf Raise-Machine
    : Donkey Calf Raise-Machine
    : Toe Raise-Machine



4. Friday= Chest, Biceps, Abs and cardio

Chest Consist Of 2 Primary And 2 Secondary Exercises.

(Sets) = 4- Primary   3- Secondary      (Reps) = 8 to 10 heavy

Biceps Consist  Of  2 Primary And 1 Secondary Exercise

(Sets) = 3 each      (Reps) = 10 to 12 heavy 

Abs routine consist of 2 primary exercises. 

(Sets) = 3 each       (Reps) = 15 to 20

Cardio consist of 45 minuets treadmill  and or Bike.


  A. Primary Chest Exercise Examples:

    : Bench Press-Barbell,Dumbbell Or Machine
    : Incline Press-Barbell,Dumbbell Or Machine
    : Decline Press-Barbell,Dumbbell Or Machine
    : Dip-Parallel Bars

  B. Secondary Chest Exercise Examples:

    : Fly-Dumbbell Flat or Incline
    : Fly-Cables Standing,Lying-Flat Or Incline
    : Fly-Peck Deck Lying Or Seated
    : Cable Crossovers

  C. Primary Biceps Exercise Examples:

    : Biceps Curl-Barbell Wide and narrow grip variation
    : Biceps Curl-Cable With Strait Bar Wide and narrow grip variation
    : Biceps Curl-Dumbbell Standing Or Seated-(Incline)
    : One-Arm Biceps Curl-Cable

  D. Secondary Biceps Exercise Examples:

    : Concentration Curl-Dumbbell Or Cable
    : Preacher Curl Barbell-Dumbbell-Machine
    : Standing Hammer Curl-Dumbbell
    : Lying Biceps Curl-Cable
    : Standing Two-Hand Overhead Cable Curl

  E. Primary examples for Abs:

    : Abe Crunch machine
    : Hanging Leg Raises
    : Hanging-Weighted Knee Raises



This is just an example of what exercises and workouts I do each and every week for what stage I am at. Do not follow this stage until you are ready.

You as a beginner can start out by doing 1 primary and 1 secondary exercise for the first 3 weeks. Then move up by doing 2 primary and 1 secondary exercises for the next 3 to 4 weeks. Then you can move on the the next stage if you want at that time or when you feel ready to do so. You can pick and choose what days you do your cardio as well.


----------



## Powermaster (Jan 11, 2012)

ben1793 said:


> I just simply used my common sense, think 2 people one works out 3 days and other works out 5 days, whos going to get stronger faster? I would have thought the 5 days sine he is spending 2 more days working on building up.



Common sense should tell you that you that you recover and grow while resting. So the questions becomes do you rest more working out 5 days a week or 3?
Also, can you train harder on your workout day with a day of rest between them or no days of rest between them?


----------



## justhav2p (Jan 11, 2012)

Powermaster said:


> Common sense should tell you that you that you recover and grow while resting. So the questions becomes do you rest more working out 5 days a week or 3?
> Also, can you train harder on your workout day with a day of rest between them or no days of rest between them?


 

common sense should tell you if you rested 7 days a week you would be a monster? 

You get enough rest sleeping for 8 hours and sitting on the couch at home or a chair at work.... 

Peeps do cardio 7 days a week and are in perfect shape.. did they need to rest more ????


----------



## CowPimp (Jan 11, 2012)

Doing less only results in more if you are exceeding your ability to recover by doing more.  I feel like people have gone overboard in recent years espousing extremely low volume routines.  Here are the facts to keep in mind:


You have a limited ability to recover.  If you exceed this capacity, you will not optimize results.  Major factors that influence one's ability to recover include genetics, hormones, sleep, nutrition, and other stressors.


Working out doesn't build muscle, it breaks down muscle.  The stress imposed by resistance training causes tissue damage.  It is during your recovery from the workouts that you repair this damage and supercompensate, or re-build beyond the previous baseline.


If you are not pushing the limits of your ability to recover, then you can, and should, do more.  Less is only more if you are exceeding your ability to recover.  In fact, over time it is a good idea to try and increase work capacity.  Read some stuff from Louie Simmons on this topic.


The more intense the activity, the more difficult it is to recover from.  Therefore, you can get away with doing less if the activity is more intense.  You can't half ass it in the gym at very low volumes.  If you do plan on performing a low volume routine, you need to be busting your ass.


----------



## pebble (Jan 11, 2012)

Usealittle said:


> If you have it post it up..... I'll take a look at it. Also the OP can ggudge for himself.



I will post the the articles names.  Some have free access to all, others you need a membership. 


Nissen SR, Sharp M, Ray JA, Rathmacher D, Rice JC, Fuller Jr, Connelly AS, Abumrad N: Effect of leucine metabolite beta - hydroxy-beta -methylbutyrate on muscle metabolism during resistance-exercise training. _J Appl Physiol _1996, 81:2095-2104. 

Gontzea, I., Sutzescu, Dumitrache. The influence of daptation to physical effort on nitrogen balance in man. Nutr. Rep. Int. 22: 231-236, 1975. 16. 

Van Someren K, Edwards A, Howatson G: The effects of hmb supplementation on indices of exercise-induced muscle damage in man. _Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise _2003, 35(5):270.

Yoshimura H., Inque T, Yamada, Shirkai.  Anemia during hard physical training (sports anemia) and its causal mechanism with special reference to protein nutrition. WorZd Rev. Nutr. Diet. 35: l-86, 1980. 

Van Someren K, Edwards A, Howatson G: Supplementation with beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) and alpha-ketoisocaproic acid (KIC) reduces signs and symptoms of exercise- induced muscle damage in man. _Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab _2005, 15(4):413-24.

Jowko E, Ostaszewski P, Jank M, Sacharuk J, Zieniewicz A, Wilczak J,  Nissen S: Creatine and β-hydroxy-β-methylbutyrate (HMB) additively increase lean body mass and muscle strength during a weight-training program. _Nutr _2001, 17:558-566.


----------



## Powermaster (Jan 11, 2012)

justhav2p said:


> common sense should tell you if you rested 7 days a week you would be a monster?



Not without training stimulus. You'd be a weak blob.



justhav2p said:


> You get enough rest sleeping for 8 hours and sitting on the couch at home or a chair at work....



Then I'd say you need to bump intensity up or are on some massive amount of gear and eating a ton of food. For a natty beginner...no way.



justhav2p said:


> Peeps do cardio 7 days a week and are in perfect shape.. did they need to rest more ????



Endurance training...  Not sure what the relevance is here to the topic on gaining mass and strength, enlighten me.


----------



## Powermaster (Jan 11, 2012)

CowPimp said:


> Doing less only results in more if you are exceeding your ability to recover by doing more.  I feel like people have gone overboard in recent years espousing extremely low volume routines.  Here are the facts to keep in mind:
> 
> 
> You have a limited ability to recover.  If you exceed this capacity, you will not optimize results.  Major factors that influence one's ability to recover include genetics, hormones, sleep, nutrition, and other stressors.
> ...



This pretty much says it all.


----------



## ben1793 (Jan 11, 2012)

I just want to add, I didnt realise this was a anabolic forum but wanted to clear up I dont take any gear, I am beginner and dont plan on taking any gear yet.


----------



## pebble (Jan 11, 2012)

stewy101 said:


> Are you looking to gain Fatty weight or Lean Muscle weight?


  Is this a rethorical question?  And based off your advice I would assume he is looking to gain no weight.  You didn’t provide him with a caloric surplus.  



stewy101 said:


> DIETS FOR BUILDING LEAN MUSCLE:
> 
> To gain weight of any type, you must consume more calories than you burn through exercise and daily activities. If your goal is to gain weight in the form of lean muscle mass, choose the right balance of calories to give your body the fuel to build muscle. Combine this with a strength training, muscle building exercise routine, and you will see the muscles begin to build.


 

  This isn’t true. You can build muscle (or LBM) , lose fat, and decreased total weight at the same time as long as you are meeting your protein requirements and have a stimulus to cause muscle adaption.  The energy deficit created by the diet can be supplemented by lipolysis of triglycerides.  This allows the body to fuel the activity of building new, or adding to existing lean body tissue (muscle included) while reducing total body fat and total weight. 3



stewy101 said:


> Overall Calories:
> Finding the right amount of calories for your current size is the key to building lean muscle and not adding fat. recommend consuming 18 to 20 calories per pound of body weight each training day if you are trying to gain lean muscle mass, dropping to 12 to 14 calories per pound on rest days. These calories should be divided amongst six to eight small meals.


 

  Or he could use the Harris Benedict formula to estimate his basal metabolic rate and then use an activity multiplier to estimate his daily caloric needs.  That gives him a starting point and he can adjust to his needs based of the simple method I outlined in a previous post in this thread.
  I bet the method that is based on scientific data and years of research is a probably the way to do this.



stewy101 said:


> Proteins:
> Protein provides the body with amino acids, which are *the building blocks of muscle tissue. recommend consuming 40 to 60 g of protein at each meal*. Sources of protein include lean cuts of meat such as chicken or turkey breast, pork, low-fat dairy products, and nuts or nut butters. You may also use a protein powder to make a protein shake if you need additional protein at a meal. Keep your protein intake the same on days you train and days you rest, because your muscles need the protein to repair themselves after training.


 

  Provided some literary references why one should do what is bolded .  I can provide evidence that states that more than 20g of whey at a time does not add any benefit in terms of increased levels protein synthesis.  



stewy101 said:


> Carbohydrates:
> Carbohydrates provide energy for your workouts. Aim for 40 to 80 g of carbohydrates at each meal on days you train, for a total of between 240 and 480. On days you do not train, aim for between 100 and 200 g of carbohydrates. Choose carbohydrates that are high in fiber because these help your digestive system to function at its best. High-fiber sources of carbohydrate include fruits, vegetables and whole grains.


 

  Shouldn’t this number be based off of the total caloric goal?  It should be the left of what ones protein and lipid needs are.  At that point you can divide it up as you see fit.  You can use them to pulse nutrients, like the unified diet, or you can use it to create a more balanced a neutral state, by eating more frequently.

  And if you want the dude to carb cycle, come out and say it.  But the way you have it laid out is haphazardly with no real reasoning.  



stewy101 said:


> Fats:
> Fats also provide energy for workouts, but too much fat can lead to gaining fat tissue instead of lean muscle tissue. Recommend 5 to 10 g per meal come from healthy fats, including fatty fish, olive oil or nuts. These healthy fats will help fuel muscle growth and aid in your energy levels while you work out. Recommend keeping your fat intake to 15 to 20 percent of your daily diet.


 

  Do fats provide energy for workouts?  Maybe for low steady state walking, but if you are doing resistance training you can be damn sure that fats are not providing you the energy you need.  The rate of ATP (energy) synthesis from lipids does not meet the rate of the bodies demand for ATP during resistance training.  Your body relies on plasma glucose, intramuscular glucose, and intramuscular ATP (+ CP for re-synthesis). 
  And dude even the general food guidelines of the US say to eat about 30% fat.  It even notes going as low as 15-20% can cause endocrine (reproduction related – so yes testosterone) problems in males and females respectively.  



stewy101 said:


> DIETS FOR GAINING FATTY WEIGHT:
> 
> 1. Eat Tons of carbohydrates a day.
> 
> ...


  The terms ‘tons’ in your context is not a unit and therefore holds no value.   Using the terms ‘tons’ is ambiguous and adds no value or substance to your argument.  Give me some numbers …  
  Your posts are a joke.  They are full of a bunch of broscience you read online, in a magazine, or heard from a friend.  Educate yourself.

  3 Effect of a Hypocaloric Diet, Increased Protein Intake and Resistance Training on Lean Mass Gains and Fat Mass Loss in Overweight Police Officers


----------



## pebble (Jan 11, 2012)

ben1793 said:


> I just want to add, I didnt realise this was a anabolic forum but wanted to clear up I dont take any gear, I am beginner and dont plan on taking any gear yet.



That is a smart move.


----------



## Powermaster (Jan 11, 2012)

pebble said:


> I can provide evidence that states that more than 20g of whey at a time does not add any benefit in terms of increased levels protein synthesis.


 Wouldn't a minimum amount of whey protein to initiate protein synthesis be determined by it's leucine content?
From research I've seen a minimum of 2.5 to 3g of leucine would be required and is roughly 8 to 11% by volume in whey protein which should equal more like a 30g serving.
I'm interested in your thoughts and findings on this.


----------



## ben1793 (Jan 11, 2012)

THE ONLY THING THAT CONFUSED ME IS THIS:

You all say 5+ days a week is OVERTRAIN, but how can this be true?
Think about it, if you train 1 musclegroup per day and let it rest 1 week, beginners are told to do 3x full body workouts...isnt that overtrain? 

I just think to myself, 3 days when I am siting around for another 4 doing nothing just feels bad, I did a bad workout routine went like this:
chest
shoulders
triceps 
for the start of the week...I recovered and gained from it, if that helped me gain wouldnt a decent 5 day program?


----------



## justhav2p (Jan 11, 2012)

Powermaster said:


> Not without training stimulus. You'd be a weak blob.
> 
> 
> Then I'd say you need to bump intensity up or are on some massive amount of gear and eating a ton of food. For a natty beginner...no way.
> ...


 

 you don't understand sarcasm do you?


----------



## justhav2p (Jan 11, 2012)

ben1793 said:


> THE ONLY THING THAT CONFUSED ME IS THIS:
> 
> You all say 5+ days a week is OVERTRAIN, but how can this be true?
> Think about it, if you train 1 musclegroup per day and let it rest 1 week, beginners are told to do 3x full body workouts...isnt that overtrain?
> ...


 

It's not overtraining...Power is an idiot. 

CowPimp summed it up nicely. Just don't work the same muscle more then 1x a week and your golden... Don't spend more then an hour working out that muscle group a day either and your golden.


----------



## ben1793 (Jan 11, 2012)

So if I recover from that I will gain faster than the starting strength? just because starting strength is a 3 day program and I want more time in the gym, I like it  
So will I benefit more on 5 days if I eat ALLOT and recover?


----------



## pebble (Jan 11, 2012)

justhav2p said:


> it's not overtraining...power is an idiot.
> 
> Cowpimp summed it up nicely. J*ust don't work the same muscle more then 1x a week and your golden*... *don't spend more then an hour working out that muscle group a day either* and your golden.



wtf?


----------



## justhav2p (Jan 11, 2012)

YES. 

Everyworkout,.... hit that muscle hard. The rest for the muscle will be the week you spend working on other body parts. 

Don't forget or skimp on legs... in order to have a large upper body, you need wheels too.


----------



## pebble (Jan 11, 2012)

ben1793 said:


> THE ONLY THING THAT CONFUSED ME IS THIS:
> 
> You all say 5+ days a week is OVERTRAIN, but how can this be true?
> Think about it, if you train 1 musclegroup per day and let it rest 1 week, beginners are told to do 3x full body workouts...isnt that overtrain?
> ...



No one is saying you will over train.  What I am saying is that you will reap more rewards for less effort with a program based around linear periodization (and neurological adaptations - strength based) at this time.   I am all for doing as little as possible to get the most reward.  I don't want to spend hours in the gym when I could spend minutes for the same gains (arbitrary units of time). 

I think you should start off with something basic and when your body stops adapting to it move onto something that puts you in the gym a little more and adds more volume/ stress to the workouts to allow you to continue to make progress.  

Start small and move toward big.  If you start big you have nowhere to go.


----------



## pebble (Jan 11, 2012)

justhav2p said:


> YES.
> 
> Everyworkout,.... hit that muscle hard. The rest for the muscle will be the week you spend working on other body parts.
> 
> Don't forget or skimp on legs... in order to have a large upper body, you need wheels too.



Hypertrophy is not systemic, it is local.  You do not need to have big legs to have big arms.  Look around and gym and the theoretical evidence will be abundant.


I suggest you read some old western bloc training methodology.  You really no nothing about perdioization.


----------



## ben1793 (Jan 11, 2012)

Workout A 
3x5 Squat 
3x5 Bench Press 
1x5 Deadlift 
2x8 Dips

Workout B 
3x5 Squat 
3x5 press 
3x5 power cleans
2x8 Chin-ups

Thats what I saw in the SS program, you say I will gain with less, if I do this alternating non consecutive days will I gain more than 5 day split?
Do I lift as heavy as possible with good form every workout day?
Is there any way I can add anything to other days to spend more time in the gym?

Just researching both programs, I will try them both and see what happens, start with this first and see how I feel.


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## pebble (Jan 11, 2012)

Powermaster said:


> Wouldn't a minimum amount of whey protein to initiate protein synthesis be determined by it's leucine content?
> From research I've seen a minimum of 2.5 to 3g of leucine would be required and is roughly 8 to 11% by volume in whey protein which should equal more like a 30g serving.
> I'm interested in your thoughts and findings on this.




Here is a link to the article.  Its a free to view full content. Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men

And it isn't leucine that trigers protein synthesis.  Its the metabolite,  β-Hydroxy β-methylbutyric acidHMB.  But beyond that there are many factors that stimulate protein synthesis. Take a look for research on the mTOR pathway and all of its factors.  


And I have posted the following before elsewhere and will post it again here, because I think it could be useful.



> First off during RT cortisol rises, you can defend against this with CHO (causes insulin  spike which cause a shift from catabolism to anabolism therefore less muscle break down).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## pebble (Jan 11, 2012)

ben1793 said:


> Workout A
> 3x5 Squat
> 3x5 Bench Press
> 1x5 Deadlift
> ...



You will not gain less if you do both with equal intensity and attention to detail.  As long as you are eating an adequate amount of calories (and macro-nutrients) you will gain roughly the same on both routines.  You will grow from just about anything at this point in your training life. 

The difference is that one routine will better set you up to make gains off the next routine.  Doing starting strength first will followed by some hypertrophy specific split with an extra day and a little more volume to each movement pattern ( or muscle group if you prefer) will allow you to continue to progress easily.


----------



## Powermaster (Jan 11, 2012)

Very interesting stuff Pebble. Thanks!


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## justhav2p (Jan 11, 2012)

pebble said:


> Hypertrophy is not systemic, it is local. You do not need to have big legs to have big arms. Look around and gym and the theoretical evidence will be abundant.
> 
> 
> I suggest you read some old western bloc training methodology. You really no nothing about perdioization.


 
so your saying when working out legs it doesnt release all the stored up testosterone that helps repair and buld your body?

I don't need to read about how to workout.. I live it Jagoff.


----------



## pebble (Jan 11, 2012)

justhav2p said:


> so your saying when working out legs it doesnt release all the stored up testosterone that helps repair and buld your body?
> 
> I don't need to read about how to workout.. I live it Jagoff.



I am saying it does not play close to the role you think it does.  Try to find some evidence of what you are stating.  There is no evidence that can prove that training legs makes the rest of the body grow.  Like I said before hypertrophy is not systemic.  It is local. 

With all of your life and training experience I was wondering if you could explain a something to me: Why don't all of the guys that train back all day have big legs?  The back is full of very large muscles.


----------



## justhav2p (Jan 11, 2012)

pebble said:


> I am saying it does not play close to the role you think it does. Try to find some evidence of what you are stating. There is no evidence that can prove that training legs makes the rest of the body grow. Like I said before hypertrophy is not systemic. It is local.
> 
> With all of your life and training experience I was wondering if you could explain a something to me: *Why don't all of the guys that train back all day have big legs?* The back is full of very large muscles.


 

Because they are scrawny fucks mostly from Brazil who think kicking a ball is enough.


----------



## stewy101 (Jan 11, 2012)

pebble said:


> Is this a rethorical question?  And based off your advice I would assume he is looking to gain no weight.  You didn???t provide him with a caloric surplus.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






References
Haverford College Athletics: Strength and Conditioning: Nutrition Essentials
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: Carbohydrates
Columbia University: Go Ask Alice!: Amino Acid Supplements
Harvard School of Public Health: The Nutrition Source Fats and Cholesterol: Out With the Bad, In With the Good
MayoClinic.com; Healthy Diet: End the Guesswork with These Nutrition Guidelines; Mayo Clinic Staff; Feb. 22, 2011
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign: McKinley Health Center: Designing a Resistance Training Program


Have a good day


----------



## pebble (Jan 11, 2012)

stewy101 said:


> References
> Haverford College Athletics: Strength and Conditioning: Nutrition Essentials
> Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: Carbohydrates
> Columbia University: Go Ask Alice!: Amino Acid Supplements
> ...



You do understand that the sources you posted contradicts the information you have posted right?

Here are a couple examples:
1. mayo clinic suggests 44 to 78 grams of fats on a 2k kcal diet.  You suggested less for a 2.5k diet you outlined.  

2.Uni of Illi  - suggests working back and biceps together. you said this is the wrong thing to do.

Posting some random links to generic information does not constitute as providing literary references. 

Maybe you want to try again.  You can find research to support just anything out there.  

Oh and maybe this time you can try to refute my claims with counter points (and some real references) about the topics I am questioning you about instead of just spouting off more random information.  The strawman tactics are frivolous.


----------



## stewy101 (Jan 11, 2012)

pebble said:


> You do understand that the sources you posted contradicts the information you have posted right?
> 
> Here are a couple examples:
> 1. mayo clinic suggests 44 to 78 grams of fats on a 2k kcal diet.  You suggested less for a 2.5k diet you outlined.
> ...




Listen Numbnuts I have had about enough of your bullshit. I have been doing this off and on for 28 fkn years. You sound like some little punkass in collage who has nothing better to do than run your fkn mouth. Its time to shut the hell up and let people who actually know what there doing do there job. Go write an article about your little punk ass bullshit to someone who gives a damn and shut the fk up. I am done with you shit for brains. I have been using this formula for years and it WORKS for me and everyone else who uses it. So go play with your little dolls or yourself and give it a rest.


----------



## pebble (Jan 11, 2012)

stewy101 said:


> Listen Numbnuts I have had about enough of your bullshit. I have been doing this off and on for 28 fkn years. You sound like some little punkass in collage who has nothing better to do than run your fkn mouth. Its time to shut the hell up and let people who actually know what there doing do there job. Go write an article about your little punk ass bullshit to someone who gives a damn and shut the fk up. I am done with you shit for brains. I have been using this formula for years and it WORKS for me and everyone else who uses it. So go play with your little dolls or yourself and give it a rest.



Thanks for cracking and letting everyone see your true colors.   So my guess is you don't have any empirical evidence for your claims. Enjoy doing it your way, but maybe it's time to open your mind and start learning more current information from the 'kid'. You may even make a little extra progress because of it. 

Good luck,
Pebble

P.S.  So you realy don't have any counterpoints to the arguments I brought forth?  We could have an intellectual conversation about it if you feel up to it.


----------



## stewy101 (Jan 11, 2012)

pebble said:


> Thanks for cracking and letting everyone see your true colors.   So my guess is you don't have any empirical evidence for your claims. Enjoy doing it your way, but maybe it's time to open your mind and start learning more current information from the 'kid'. You may even make a little extra progress because of it.
> 
> Good luck,
> Pebble
> ...




WOW you really are an immature little prick aren't you. I Have been doing this longer than you have been alive and YOU are going to tell ME how to utilize my workouts, diet and nutrition. You have got to be kidding me son. Your a joke. A big fkn joke and now everyone see's that. I quit working out a little over 2 years ago because of a back injury i got at work. I weighed 190 pounds of lean muscle at the time doing the same routine i put fourth on here. I sat around for 2 years doing nothing but feeling sorry for myself because I could not workout any longer and ate like a pig. I got up to 210lbs of fat. After those 2 years went by i was able to get back in the gym and workout some. I wanted to loose the fatty weight BAD. I went on a diet that consist of :

6 meals a day:

Protein: body weight times 1.5 grams 
Carbohydrates: Body weight times 1
Fats: Body weight times .22  

I lost 45lbs of body fat in 4 months.
Went from 210lbs to 165lbs

2 weeks ago I changed my diet because my goal now is to add lean muscle.
Goal weight: 190lbs of lean muscle

6 meals a day:

Protein: body weight times 1.5
Carbohydrates: At least 40 grams at each meal= 240 grams everyday
Fats: 40 grams a day

How much weight have I gained in 2 weeks sense changing my diet to add lean muscle mass?

7lbs:  I have gone from 165lbs to 172lbs AND GAINING.

I know what works son. Maybe one day when you grow up and actually become a bodybuilder or just want to workout a little give me a call and I will show you how to do it right. Until then keep chomping at the bit and chasing bones because I just threw you one when I sent you on that wild goose chase.


----------



## triplstep (Jan 11, 2012)




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## justhav2p (Jan 11, 2012)




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## pebble (Jan 12, 2012)

stewy101 said:


> WOW you really are an immature little prick aren't you. I Have been doing this longer than you have been alive and YOU are going to tell ME how to utilize my workouts, diet and nutrition. You have got to be kidding me son. Your a joke. A big fkn joke and now everyone see's that. I quit working out a little over 2 years ago because of a back injury i got at work. I weighed 190 pounds of lean muscle at the time doing the same routine i put fourth on here. I sat around for 2 years doing nothing but feeling sorry for myself because I could not workout any longer and ate like a pig. I got up to 210lbs of fat. After those 2 years went by i was able to get back in the gym and workout some. I wanted to loose the fatty weight BAD. I went on a diet that consist of :
> 
> 6 meals a day:
> 
> ...



You did not gain 7lbs of muscle in the past two weeks.You are foolish if you think you did.  It is primarily water weight, glycogen stores, and other intracellular content that is being replenished after being in a prolonged hypo-caloric state.  On top of that you likely replenished some of your adiopcytes due to the recent stunting of your basal metabolic rate (during states of prolonged caloric deficits the body deceases synthesis of thyroid hormones) which makes it likely the body was unable to utilize the very rapid change in energy supply (from deficit to surplus).

And FYI each gram of CHO you added to your diet pulled in another 3g of H2O ...

Further more, protein turnover is limited to a pretty consistent rate in humans unless hormonal manipulations are present.  Simply put, you can not physically gain 7lbs of muscle in two weeks.   Heck, even someone using steroids would be happy to gain 3.5lbs of muscle/week.  It would be an incredibly feat.  

I am glad you have had your success with your diet.  Losing 45lbs can be a challenge and takes dedication, but anyone that can stick to a hypo-caloric diet for long enough will reach their goals, regardless of their macro-nutrient split.  I am not congratulating you on your diet, but rather your fortitude to stick with it.  Good job.  Any diet is successful if  you adhere to it persistently.  


Good luck with your continued success.  

Stay persistent,
pebble

P.S.  Stop trying to change the topic about you, and respond to my counterpoints.   I will not respond to anymore of your off topic points.  If however you start discuss to true topic at hand and not your strawman points I will revisit this conversation with you. 

P.S.S.  I have more experience than you would imagine working in the field of exercise physiology with amateurs, professionals, and persons with chronic illness, so stop calling me son.


----------



## ben1793 (Jan 12, 2012)

I am learning *ALLOT* here, atleast all the arguments have benefited someone in gaining knowledge 
Just wanted to say, I am sorry I didnt make this post to start off any arguments just wanted to know what was best for me, looking at this I have been thinking of going onto ss then the next day I look and another good point so I think WORK HARD GAIN MORE, like I said I was going to try both programs but now am thinking of starting with the 5 day split first, maybee try for 1 week and see if I recover.
I just wanted to say I am a very new beginner, bench is like 90lb and deadlift is like 140lb
Very bad strength so just wanted to add that information if anyone knows which program will be more ideal for me, I love spending time in the gym but if it is going to slow stuff down I will slow it down a bit.
If the answer is like said before just try both I will do but after seeing how low I lift what one would you do if you were me?


----------



## pebble (Jan 12, 2012)

ben1793 said:


> I am learning *ALLOT* here, atleast all the arguments have benefited someone in gaining knowledge
> Just wanted to say, I am sorry I didnt make this post to start off any arguments just wanted to know what was best for me, looking at this I have been thinking of going onto ss then the next day I look and another good point so I think WORK HARD GAIN MORE, like I said I was going to try both programs but now am thinking of starting with the 5 day split first, maybee try for 1 week and see if I recover.
> I just wanted to say I am a very new beginner, bench is like 90lb and deadlift is like 140lb
> Very bad strength so just wanted to add that information if anyone knows which program will be more ideal for me, I love spending time in the gym but if it is going to slow stuff down I will slow it down a bit.
> If the answer is like said before just try both I will do but after seeing how low I lift what one would you do if you were me?



Starting strength or any program based around linear periodization.


----------



## ben1793 (Jan 12, 2012)

So I will definatly see better muscle growth on a SS rarther than a 5 day split?


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## Powermaster (Jan 12, 2012)

ben1793 said:


> So I will definatly see better muscle growth on a SS rarther than a 5 day split?



Yup. I'd suggest you take pebbles advice, also re-reading Cowpimps post and his training articles posted in the stickies here: http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/60741-designing-training-routines-cowpimp.html

or you could listen to immature name callers with inflated egos.

Your choice.

Good luck!


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## pebble (Jan 12, 2012)

No, not short term, but that is not the point. It will set you up for better long term gains.  It will better prepare you for a 4 or 5 day split that focus on hypertrophy.  It would be smartest to move to a 4 day upper/lower or push/pull split following SS. After some time (8-12 weeks at least) on that try a 5 day "body part" split.


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## stewy101 (Jan 12, 2012)

pebble said:


> You did not gain 7lbs of muscle in the past two weeks.You are foolish if you think you did.  It is primarily water weight, glycogen stores, and other intracellular content that is being replenished after being in a prolonged hypo-caloric state.  On top of that you likely replenished some of your adiopcytes due to the recent stunting of your basal metabolic rate (during states of prolonged caloric deficits the body deceases synthesis of thyroid hormones) which makes it likely the body was unable to utilize the very rapid change in energy supply (from deficit to surplus).
> 
> And FYI each gram of CHO you added to your diet pulled in another 3g of H2O ...
> 
> ...




Taking all that sudo science mumbo jumbo bullshit is making me tired. I am a grown 41 year old man who has been doing this for 26 years. I have spent time up and down the east and west coast of the United States putting my time in the gym far longer than you have been alive son. Again, you have no points on this because you are still wet under the collar and have not had the experience or time put in like I have. I have been researching this for many many years little one and have come up with the perfect formula that I have been using for the last 10 years.

I have it down to a perfect science kid. I can loose, gain or maintain any kind of lean or bulky muscle weight  that I want. lol it is an easy task for me. The proof is in the pics. Go to my page and look at them, but please don't get a hard on because I don't swing that way. Little kids like you give this sport a bad name with all the trash you talk. Like you know what the hell you are doing. Like I said kid Talk is cheap and getting the job done is a bitch when you don't know what your doing, and obviously you don't. And yes I keep myself very hydrated with drinking at least a gallion of sweet spring water every day, It does a body good. Keep grasping for straws kid, you might learn a thing or two. 

Oh by the way I see your from the Carina Nebula, an estimated distance between 6,500 and 10,000 light years from Earth. Did you come by yourself or are there more like you here on earth. I hope they are coming back to pick you up sometime soon. I am sure your kind miss you very much.


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## slownsteady (Jan 12, 2012)

Mike Mentzer, Dorian Yates, even Branch warren are doing less total sets. Jay Cutler, Ronnie Coleman, and many others go more total sets. I think you'll find out what works best for you in time. I feel that I overtrain very easily, so I do only 10-12 heavy sets per workout about 5 days or less per week. I haven't got photo's up but I plan on it, and I'm usually the thickest, freakiest, full musclebellied guy at all my gyms. Also I don't use tons of gear. I think 5'8'' @ 165 with decent abs is thick, but it's how it looks that freaks ya out!!! Phil Heath's arms and shoulders are genetics. You'll find what works best for you.


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## Mattweim (Jan 12, 2012)

I think ive been overtraining


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## ben1793 (Jan 12, 2012)

So you are saying if my genetics are good I could recover very fast? I trained 4 day split which was very bad like I said before it had stuff like shoulders or triceps day after chest...I recovered from it, I am just having a hard time geting my head around how a person can train 3 days and get same results as training  for 5+ days.


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## ben1793 (Jan 12, 2012)

edit: its ok, I am just going to try a routine and stick to it, thanks for the help.


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## pebble (Jan 12, 2012)

The body has limits to how fast it can build muscle. This means that stimulus above the threshold needed to reach this point is almost useless.  When you are new to training the threshold is low. I am sure almost all of us in this thread can agree its easy to grow when you are new to training. Take advantage of this.  When you need a larger stimulus to see adaptions. Add another day so that you have time to add more exercisess to specific movement patterns.  

There is no rush with this. Take your time and enjoy the journey.


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## grotto72 (Jan 12, 2012)

Has anyone mentioned Dorian Yates' style of high intensity training? 2 warm up sets followed by 1 set of ur max effort to 8-10 reps with some forced reps at the end to train the negative to failure. Watch his "blood and guts" training videos on youtube.

I saw last nite that when he was winnng all those olympia's he was only doing 3.5hrs a week of weight training while other guys were doing 2 hours a day.


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## stewy101 (Jan 12, 2012)

pebble said:


> The body has limits to how fast it can build muscle. This means that stimulus above the threshold needed to reach this point is almost useless.  When you are new to training the threshold is low. I am sure almost all of us in this thread can agree its easy to grow when you are new to training. Take advantage of this.  When you need a larger stimulus to see adaptions. Add another day so that you have time to add more exercisess to specific movement patterns.
> 
> There is no rush with this. Take your time and enjoy the journey.


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## Big G (Jan 12, 2012)

Well... That was quite a read! 

Pebbles, You clearly have a head-full of research and studies. How on earth did you acquire all that? Honestly. I'm interested (at least in knowing how).

Name-caling & ranting aside, I must confess that I'm a bit more on the Stewy side (not to be confused with ON stewy's side.). I've read my fair share of studies, broscience and wotnot in my time, and incorporated numerous lessons & tidbits into a general muddle of knowledge that I draw from to attain my goals. None of it is clear enough for me to tell you that an increased level of beta-hydroxy-nonsensiculis will outperform an increased level of thyroidiculous-hormoaninanwhinin But, even without all that, I've been known to cut from a blubbery 200lb to a ripped 160lb, then bulked to a strong & beefy 200lb inside two years (check my journals on this site if you like). Like stewy I've also been out for two years for surgeries & physical therapy (genetic disorder, not injury related), but I'm back to cutting again and I'm sure I'll have no problems bulking back up when I'm done.

With that said... 

BEN... Chill out! This isn't rocket science! Give it time, play around and keep a journal. If you find that you used to be able to add weight or reps every week, but suddenly can't, flick back through your journal and see what you were doing. Maybe doing less will enable you to do more. I know, for example, that if I do legs more than once a week then my strength gains come slower than if I do them once a week. Why? Because obviously I need a week to heal. 

Similarly, as time rolls by you'll probably find that religiously working squats & deadlifts HARD will pack meat all over your body (despite hypertrophy being "local") whereas the pussy-ass bitches parading around doing DB lunges & burpees will all be the same size they were when you joined the gym years prior.

None of this entire conversation will amount to a pile of testosterone if you don't enjoy your workouts and stick at it. Do whatever the hell you like. Seriously. Could you have gained more muscle faster by doing things differently? Of course. Everyone could. Even Pebbles. Could you have gotten stronger faster by choosing a different program? Yup. Probably. But BIG WHOOP! Who gives a rats ass!? You're not in competition with the imaginary you that couldashouldawoulda done better. You're on a long road of self discovery and enjoyment with the added benefit of being bigger & stronger week by week, year by year. Just grab some iron, pick it up, put it down and see if you can move more iron next week. 

I'm not advocating you immediately try to deadlift 400lb with a rounded back. You can't be a complete jackass about it. But you don't need to know anywhere near the depth of knowledge that Pebbles knows in order to grow big and strong.

Try 5x5 five days a week with supersets. See how it goes. Try 20rep squats four times a week. See how it goes. Try BO DB rows while picking your nose with the other hand if you like. Do whatever. It'll be more than apparent how your body works in no time.   

So anyway... Stay cool. Don't worry. Keep a journal. And have fun! You'll learn how you react to what you put yourself through after you've put yourself through it. It's not a race. Ask a question here and there along the way. I found myself asking how to reach 5% body-fat recently, and I've been at this shit for years. 

There's always something to learn, but the answers to most of the questions are found under a huge pile of iron! You have to move the iron to find the answers. =)

 Enjoy!


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## slownsteady (Jan 13, 2012)

That's funny that I weigh 165. Actually I can do barbell curls with 165 for reps no problem. I believe I'm at about 260-265lbs @ 5'8''depending on stress and what I've eaten. I think I've been training around 17yrs. But yeah, training less often, with less sets has been good to me. I've tried Jay Cutlers training and Ronnie Coleman's, but my body get's to worn out I think. I Think I train more like Yates, but more sets and 10-12 reps, but heavy as I can. I cheat on form almost always, cause it feels better to me. Can you keep training and find youre way.


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## pebble (Jan 14, 2012)

Big G said:


> Well... That was quite a read!
> 
> Pebbles, You clearly have a head-full of research and studies. How on earth did you acquire all that? Honestly. I'm interested (at least in knowing how).



For a long time I was paid to train professional athelets and professional hopefuls. At that level of training you better know why you are doing something and have a way to back it up. I have supplemented that with training persons in clinical settings.

To put things simply I am paid to know the research and how to apply it.  This is a hobby for most, but a career for me.


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## Big G (Jan 14, 2012)

pebble said:


> For a long time I was paid to train professional athelets and professional hopefuls. At that level of training you better know why you are doing something and have a way to back it up. I have supplemented that with training persons in clinical settings.
> 
> To put things simply I am paid to know the research and how to apply it.  This is a hobby for most, but a career for me.



How fortunate then that you are on this site and kind enough to share your knowledge with the rest of us. Thanks for that.

Off topic, I know, but where has your knowledge come from? Can you recommend books, websites or other resources where an inquisitive mind could potentially go in search of a more in-depth understanding?


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## stewy101 (Jan 14, 2012)

pebble said:


> For a long time I was paid to train professional athelets and professional hopefuls. At that level of training you better know why you are doing something and have a way to back it up. I have supplemented that with training persons in clinical settings.
> 
> To put things simply I am paid to know the research and how to apply it.  This is a hobby for most, but a career for me.




Just wondering what type of formula do you use for your diet and nutritional needs and what type of workout program do you have? Just got off another thread where they were talking about protein intake for ones day and how high most people keep there's. i was at 1.5 time body weight per day which i roughly keep it between 240 and 260 grams per day but after reading through all the evidence I have decided to drop it to between 1.0 and 1.25 I know we got off to a rough start and want to analogize sincerely for my actions pebble. I am not a bad guy and really think I was a dick the other day. 
 I know your not a bad guy ether and just want to man up and tell you that.


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## pebble (Jan 15, 2012)

Its not a problem. 

Well right now I am in between programs.  I was feeling rundown from the routine leading up to the end of the year.  I have been doing a pretty basic full body routine right now 3 days a week.  As for diet it really depends on what my goals are.  Right now it's a general 25(P)/45(C)/30(F) split.  Within the next 2 weeks I will be transitioning to carb cycling.  Protein and fats will be much higher.    

Like I have said before you eat protein because you like it or have reasons beyond protein synthesis go ahead, but just remember that we don't need that much for growth.  Realizing this can help cut down the cost of shakes for guys that have trouble eating enough real food, but are still trying to get very large numbers of protein.  

P.S.  The numbers are obviously for a natural lifter.  If someone is using AAS they need to up that protein.  Thats a whole different ball game.


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## stewy101 (Jan 15, 2012)

pebble said:


> Its not a problem.
> 
> Well right now I am in between programs.  I was feeling rundown from the routine leading up to the end of the year.  I have been doing a pretty basic full body routine right now 3 days a week.  As for diet it really depends on what my goals are.  Right now it's a general 25(P)/45(C)/30(F) split.  Within the next 2 weeks I will be transitioning to carb cycling.  Protein and fats will be much higher.
> 
> ...




Thanks for your valuable input. I will take this all into account. Even at 41 I still have a lot to learn and do strive to learn something new each and everyday. I will take all that I can sponge and use as much of it that I can.......


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## BroncoJunkie (Jan 16, 2012)

If you're a hard gainer, i'd recommend always stick with GVT, and always vary your exercises and reps.  You can do this forever and continue to gain.


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## YSGC (Jan 16, 2012)

I know guys in prison who only eat 3 meals a day and only hit the weights 3x a week if that (due to riots and what not). Not to mention there are no free weights. The rest of the time is all body weight exercise's. And these guys are swoll as **** fit as can be. Matter fact they look like they could be on gear. Now some might say genetics. I say not true. I say these guys are more motivated and work harder than most. These guys dont have the luxuries of protein shakes, amino acids and etc. What they do have is drive, they are consistent with everything they do(with some help from the state). Its work or die for them.LOL. Okay maybe a little extras on that, but hopefully you get my point.


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