# NYPD officers banned from using OTC supplements!



## Arnold (Jan 18, 2010)

*NYPD officers banned from using OTC supplements!*

NYPD presses cop-steroid ban
By REUVEN BLAU

City cops have been told to stay off the "juice" -- or else.

In an effort to create a stricter steroid ban, the NYPD last week issued a stern warning to its members not to bulk up with supplements purchased online or over the counter.

A bulletin distributed at roll call identified 21 nutritional supplements that contained steroids but failed to list them on their labels.

All dietary supplements are also forbidden, the four-page memo said -- noting that their use would trigger positive drug tests.

The NYPD began random steroid testing in April 2008 after a scandal that tainted as many as 27 cops.

At least four more have been snared by those tests in 2009.
The FDA has said steroid use can lead to liver damage, stroke, heart disease or kidney failure.

The NYPD noted that illegal steroid use fuels a market run by organized crime.


----------



## nni (Jan 18, 2010)

organized crime is such a blanket statement. there is no guarantee that buying steroids ties into mob related activity, which is what is implied/thought of. in related any crime that requires a supply side, is technically organized. you are getting the steroids out of thin air, there has to be organization. using that term has a definite effect and they are exploiting it.


----------



## MtR (Jan 18, 2010)

27 cops in an organization of over 10k!!  LOL!!!!!!

If that is all they could find then the rest of the guys are doing a fantastic job of hiding their use.  More power to them, you won't find me bitching that cops shouldn't use AAS.

Why is New York so against muscle building products.  Wasn't it Charles Schumer who initiated the bill to add HGH to the controlled substance list?


----------



## Arnold (Jan 18, 2010)

Mike the Ripper said:


> Why is New York so against muscle building products.



its not just NY, it's the entire country and its because the government demonized anabolic steroids, the same way they demonized marijuana.


----------



## MtR (Jan 18, 2010)

Robert said:


> its not just NY, it's the entire country and its because the government demonized anabolic steroids, the same way they demonized marijuana.


 

True, but it always seems that NY and their self-aggrandizing politicians are at the forefront, hence my reference to Charles Schumer. I commend them on being proactive in certain areas that apply to general health and well being....i.e trans fat ban, public smoking bans etc... but a lot of the things they rally against are the result of misguided advice and information as well as capitalizing on current political buzzwords.


----------



## GearsMcGilf (Jan 18, 2010)

This is getting ridiculous. Trans fat bans, smoking bans, my ass. What's next? I wonder how long it'll be before big daddy govt starts requiring that we all eat 3 servings of veggies everyday and limits how much sugar and sweets we can buy each month. Afterall, that is why we have govt, to take care of us and watch over our health. 

I wonder if by "dietary supplements" they're referring only to PH/PS/AAS or any dietary supps used for muscle building, including things like creatine, NO products, etc.  Either way it wouldn't be any surprise.


----------



## lennoxchi (Jan 19, 2010)

out of all the people i know and are familar with cops and prison guards are the ones i would want to be able to take steroids, or at least not test them so under the table use could be exercised. if i'm a 190lbs. officer trying to subdue a 300lbs. gorilla like roids here, i would want a little advantage. lets face it folks, cops have tough jobs, they deal with the part of society that most of us don't care for......drug addicts, drug dealers, robbers, murders etc. i say let them do it. now before someone fires back with "yea, that's what i want is a guy or gal with a legal right to carry a gun and arrest me all juiced up" keep in mind, most and i say most departments screen their officers very well looking for emotional stability, polygraphs are conducted, extensive backgrounds checks are just a few of the things that are done before you are sent to the academy. now do a few crack pots slip throught the system, sure, especially in big cities like the one i'm from, but for the most part you're talking about maybe 1 in several hundred.


----------



## GearsMcGilf (Jan 19, 2010)

lennoxchi said:


> out of all the people i know and are familar with cops and prison guards are the ones i would want to be able to take steroids, or at least not test them so under the table use could be exercised. if i'm a 190lbs. officer trying to subdue a 300lbs. gorilla like roids here, i would want a little advantage.


 
Say what?  Do you see any fur?! Roids ain't no gorilla!


----------



## namean (Jan 19, 2010)

Why do they always bring up this stupid $hit...

"The FDA has said steroid use can lead to liver damage, stroke, heart disease or kidney failure."


----------



## GearsMcGilf (Jan 20, 2010)

So can alcohol abuse.

Fuck! Just realized I'm all outta beer!


----------



## lennoxchi (Jan 20, 2010)

Roids1 said:


> Say what? Do you see any fur?! Roids ain't no gorilla!


 
even gorillas can shave.....you can teach them to do all kinds of things, even be teachers.....


----------



## Pirate! (Jan 20, 2010)

The issue is that the government pays for their medical care. As long as medical care is the financial resposibility of the employer, we will increasingly see employer interference in personal issues. Imagine if the federal government wanted to save money by mandating your lifestyle choices. They may restict your protein, stating it's hard on your kidneys.


----------



## brk_nemesis (Jan 20, 2010)

Pirate! said:


> The issue is that the government pays for their medical care. As long as medical care is the financial resposibility of the employer, we will increasingly see employer interference in personal issues. Imagine if the federal government wanted to save money by mandating your lifestyle choices. They may restict your protein, stating it's hard on your kidneys.


True,... but this is more of a liability and PR move on the gov't's part. The last thing they want the public to know is the same people who are enforcing the law - are now breaking it. Most recently the media has made public the "loopholes" these supplement companies have used to put out prohormones and in fact they are steroidal compounds.

This line pretty much seals the deal: 



> The NYPD noted that illegal steroid use fuels a market run by organized crime.


----------



## KelJu (Jan 20, 2010)

lennoxchi said:


> out of all the people i know and are familar with cops and prison guards are the ones i would want to be able to take steroids, or at least not test them so under the table use could be exercised. if i'm a 190lbs. officer trying to subdue a 300lbs. gorilla like roids here, i would want a little advantage. lets face it folks, cops have tough jobs, they deal with the part of society that most of us don't care for......drug addicts, drug dealers, robbers, murders etc. i say let them do it. now before someone fires back with "yea, that's what i want is a guy or gal with a legal right to carry a gun and arrest me all juiced up" keep in mind, most and i say most departments screen their officers very well looking for emotional stability, polygraphs are conducted, extensive backgrounds checks are just a few of the things that are done before you are sent to the academy. now do a few crack pots slip throught the system, sure, especially in big cities like the one i'm from, but for the most part you're talking about maybe 1 in several hundred.




Yes you are right. Cops should not be held to the same laws they enforce. Personally, I think cops should be allowed to do just about whatever they want. I mean, they are heroes and all.


----------



## ZECH (Jan 21, 2010)

brk_nemesis said:


> The last thing they want the public to know is the same people who are enforcing the law - are now breaking it. Most recently the media has made public the "loopholes" these supplement companies have used to put out prohormones and in fact they are steroidal compounds.
> 
> This line pretty much seals the deal:



thats the kicker though. these substances should not be illegal in the first place. If you study scheduled drugs, they each have a list that make them addictive, side effects and so on and that is how they decide what is illegal. Steriods and ph's fit NONE of thest profiles.


----------



## ZECH (Jan 21, 2010)

There are 5 classifications and here is a list of what drug is in each class and what makes it listed as an illegal drug.


Schedule I controlled substances 
Main article: List of Schedule I drugs (US)
"Placement on schedules; findings required

Except ... The findings required for each of the schedules are as follows:

(1) Schedule I.???

(A) The drug or other substance has a high potential for abuse.

(B) The drug or other substance has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States.

(C) There is a lack of accepted safety for use of the drug or other substance under medical supervision." [9]

No prescriptions may be written for Schedule I substances, and such substances are subject to production quotas by the DEA.

Under the DEA's interpretation of the CSA, a drug does not necessarily have to have the same abuse potential as heroin or cocaine to merit placement in Schedule I (in fact, cocaine is currently a Schedule II drug due to limited medical use):

When it comes to a drug that is currently listed in schedule I, if it is undisputed that such drug has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States and a lack of accepted safety for use under medical supervision, and it is further undisputed that the drug has at least some potential for abuse sufficient to warrant control under the CSA, the drug must remain in schedule I. In such circumstances, placement of the drug in schedules II through V would conflict with the CSA since such drug would not meet the criterion of "a currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States." 21 USC 812(b).[16] 
Sentences for first-time, non-violent offenders convicted of trafficking in Schedule I drugs can easily turn into de facto life sentences when multiple sales are prosecuted in one proceeding.[17] Sentences for violent offenders are much higher.

Drugs in this schedule include:

gamma-Hydroxybutyric acid (GHB), which has been used as a general anaesthetic with minimal side-effects[citation needed] and controlled action but a limited safe dosage range. It was placed in Schedule I in March 2000 after widespread recreational use. Uniquely, this drug is also listed in Schedule III for limited uses, under the trademark Xyrem; 
12-Methoxyibogamine (Ibogaine), which has been used in opiate addiction treatment and psychotherapy. 
Marijuana. Controversy exists about its placement in Schedule I. There remains no reported cases of THC overdose. Main article: Removal of cannabis from Schedule I of the Controlled Substances Act. 
Heroin (Diacetylmorphine), which is used in some European countries as a potent pain reliever in terminal cancer patients, and as second option, after morphine. (It is about twice as potent, by weight, as morphine.) 
Other strong opiates and opioids used in many other countries, or even in the USA in previous decades for palliation of moderate to severe pain such as nicomorphine (Vilan), dextromoramide (Palfium), ketobemidone (Ketalgin), dihydromorphine (Paramorfan), piritramide (Dipidolor), diacetyldihydromorphine (Paralaudin), dipipanone (Wellconal), phenadoxone (Heptalgin) and many others. 
Weak opioids used for relief of moderate pain, diarrhea, and coughing such as benzylmorphine (Peronine), nicocodeine (Tusscodin), Dihydrocodeinone enol acetate, tilidine (Valoron), meptazinol (Meptid), propiram (Algeril), acetyldihydrocodeine and others. 
Pholcodine, a weak opioid cough suppressant with negligible abuse potential[citation needed] which is available over-the-counter in many other countries. 
MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine, Ecstasy), which continues to be used medically, notably in the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). The medical community originally agreed upon placing it as a Schedule III substance, but the government denied this suggestion, despite two court rulings by the DEA's administrative law judge that placing MDMA in Schedule I was illegal. It was temporarily unscheduled after the first administrative hearing from December 22, 1987 - July 1, 1988.[18] 
Psilocybin, the active ingredient in psychedelic mushrooms; 
5-MeO-DIPT (Foxy / Foxy Methoxy / 5-methoxy-N,N-diisopropyltryptamine) 
Lysergic acid diethylamide ("LSD" / "Acid"), formerly used in psychotherapy 
Peyote, a cactus growing in nature primarily in northeastern Mexico; one of the few plants specifically scheduled, with a narrow exception to its legal status for religious use by members of the Native American Church; 
Mescaline, the main psychoactive ingredients of the peyote, san pedro, achuma, and Peruvian torch cacti; 
Methaqualone (Quaalude, Sopor, Mandrax), a sedative that was previously used for similar purposes as barbiturates, until it was rescheduled; 
2,5-dimethoxy-4-methylamphetamine (STP / DOM), a psychotropic hallucinogen that rose to prominence in 1967 in San Francisco when it appeared in pill form (known as "STP", in doses as high as four times the amounts previously considered "safe") on the black market; 
Tetrahydrogestrinone (THG / "The Clear"), an anabolic progestegenic androgen first created by the BALCO athletic supplement company that was the drug of choice for athletes using steroids due to its "invisibility" in standard steroid screening tests until 2003, when Trevor Graham provided a sample to the United States Anti-Doping Agency for use in creating a screening test; banned by the FDA for medical use and added to Schedule I in 2003; 
2C-T-7 (Blue Mystic / T7), a psychotropic entheogen; 
2C-B (Nexus / Bees / Venus / Bromo Mescaline), a psychotropic hallucinogen and aphrodisiac; 
Cathinone (β-ketoamphetamine), a monoamine alkaloid found in the shrub Catha edulis (Khat); 
AMT (alpha-methyltryptamine), an anti-depressant from the tryptamine family with hallucinogenic properties; first developed in the Soviet Union and marketed under the brand name Indopan; 
Bufotenin (5-OH-DMT), a naturally-occurring tryptamine with hallucinogenic and aphrodisiac properties; named for the Bufo genus of toads whose venom contains the chemical;[19] 
Benzylpiperazine (BZP), a synthetic drug with a slight resemblance to MDMA and stimulant effects 10 times less potent than amphetamine (though it was mistakenly said to be 10 times more addictive than amphetamine at the drug's schedule hearing). 
DXO, active metabolite of Dextromethorphan, NMDA antagonist.[20] 
Controlled Substance Analogs intended for human consumption (as defined by the Federal Analog Act) 
[edit] Schedule II controlled substances 
Main article: List of Schedule II drugs (US)
"Placement on schedules; findings required

Except.... The findings required for each of the schedules are as follows:

Schedule II.???

(A) The drug or other substance has a high potential for abuse.

(B) The drug or other substance has a currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States or a currently accepted medical use with severe restrictions.

(C) Abuse of the drug or other substances may lead to severe psychological or physical dependence." [10]

Except when dispensed directly by a practitioner, other than a pharmacist, to an ultimate user, no controlled substance in schedule II, which is a prescription drug as determined under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act [21 U.S.C. 301 et seq.], may be dispensed without the written prescription of a practitioner, except that in emergency situations, as prescribed by the Secretary by regulation after consultation with the Attorney General, such drug may be dispensed upon oral prescription in accordance with section 503(b) of that Act [21 U.S.C. 353 (b)]. Prescriptions shall be retained in conformity with the requirements of section 827 of this title. No prescription for a controlled substance in schedule II may be refilled.[11] Notably no emergency situation provisions exist outside the Controlled Substances Act's "closed system" although this closed system may be unavailable or nonfunctioning in the event of accidents in remote areas or disasters such as hurricanes and earthquakes. Acts which would widely be considered morally imperative remain offenses subject to heavy penalties.[12]

These drugs vary in potency: for example Fentanyl is about 80 times as potent as morphine. (Heroin is roughly four times as potent.) More significantly, they vary in nature. Pharmacology and CSA scheduling have a weak relationship.

Drugs in this schedule include:

Cocaine (used as a topical anesthetic); 
Methylphenidate (Ritalin and Concerta) & Dexmethylphenidate (Focalin) (used in treatment of Attention Deficit Disorder); 
Opium and opium tincture (laudanum), which is used as a potent antidiarrheal; 
Methadone (used in treatment of heroin addiction as well as for treatment of extreme chronic pain) 
Oxycodone (semi-synthetic opioid; active ingredient in Percocet, OxyContin, and Percodan) 
Fentanyl and Most other strong pure opioid agonists, i.e. levorphanol, opium, or oxymorphone; 
Morphine 
Mixed Amphetamine Salts under brand name Adderall 
Lisdexamfetamine under brand name Vyvanse 
Dextroamphetamine (Dexedrine) Dextromethamphetamine (Desoxyn) 
Hydromorphone (Dilaudid) 
Pure codeine and any drug for non-parenteral administration containing the equivalent of more than 90 mg of codeine per dosage unit.; 
Pure hydrocodone and any drug for non-parenteral administration containing no other active ingredients or more than 15 mg per dosage unit.; 
Secobarbital (Seconal) 
Pethidine (USAN: Meperidine; Demerol) 
Phencyclidine (PCP); 
Short-acting barbiturates, such as pentobarbital, Nembutal (now out of production); 
Amphetamines were originally placed on Schedule III, but were moved to Schedule II in 1971. Injectable methamphetamine has always been on Schedule II; 
Nabilone (Cesamet) A synthetic cannabinoid. An analogue to dronabinol (Marinol) which is a Schedule III drug. 
Tapentadol (Nucynta) A new drug with mixed opioid agonist and norepinepherine re-uptake inhibitor activity. 
[edit] Schedule III controlled substances 
Main article: List of Schedule III drugs (US)
"Placement on schedules; findings required

Except... . The findings required for each of the schedules are as follows:

Schedule III.???

(A) The drug or other substance has a potential for abuse less than the drugs or other substances in schedules I and II.

(B) The drug or other substance has a currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States.

(C) Abuse of the drug or other substance may lead to moderate or low physical dependence or high psychological dependence." [13]

Except when dispensed directly by a practitioner, other than a pharmacist, to an ultimate user, no controlled substance in schedule III or IV, which is a prescription drug as determined under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act [21 U.S.C. 301 et seq.], may be dispensed without a written or oral prescription in conformity with section 503(b) of that Act [21 U.S.C. 353 (b)]. Such prescriptions may not be filled or refilled more than six months after the date thereof or be refilled more than five times after the date of the prescription unless renewed by the practitioner.[14] Control of wholesale distribution is somewhat less stringent than Schedule II drugs. Provisions for emergency situations are less restrictive within the "closed system" of the Controlled Substances Act than for Schedule II though no schedule has provisions to address circumstances where the closed system is unavailable, nonfunctioning or otherwise inadequate.

Drugs in this schedule include:

Anabolic steroids (including prohormones such as androstenedione); 
Intermediate-acting barbiturates, such as talbutal or butalbital; 
Buprenorphine; 
Dihydrocodeine single-ingredient drugs and the pure drug itself. 
Ketamine, a drug originally developed as a milder substitute for PCP (mainly to use as a human anesthetic) but has since become popular as a veterinary and pediatric anesthetic; 
Xyrem, a preparation of GHB used to treat narcolepsy. Xyrem is in Schedule III but with a restricted distribution system. All other forms of GHB are in Schedule I; 
Hydrocodone / codeine, when compounded with an NSAID (e.g. Vicoprofen, when compounded with ibuprofen) or with acetaminophen (paracetamol) (e.g. Vicodin / Tylenol 3); 
Marinol, a synthetic form of Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) used to treat nausea and vomiting caused by chemotherapy, as well as appetite loss caused by AIDS; 
Paregoric, an antidiarrheal and anti-tussive, which contains opium combined with camphor (which makes it less addiction-prone than laudanum, which is in Schedule II; 
Lysergic acid amide ("LSA"), listed as a sedative but considered by some to be hallucinogenic.[21][22] A precursor to and chemical relative of LSD. LSA occurs naturally in Rivea corymbosa, morning glory seeds, and Hawaiian baby woodrose seeds. LSA is not biosynthesized by the ergot fungus (Claviceps purpurea), but can be biosynthesized by other Claviceps geni. LSA can be present as an artifact in extracts of ergot. 
[edit] Schedule IV controlled substances 
Main article: List of Schedule IV drugs (US)
"Placement on schedules; findings required

Except.... The findings required for each of the schedules are as follows:

Schedule IV.???

(A) The drug or other substance has a low potential for abuse relative to the drugs or other substances in schedule III.

(B) The drug or other substance has a currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States.

(C) Abuse of the drug or other substance may lead to limited physical dependence or psychological dependence relative to the drugs or other substances in schedule III." [15]

Control measures are similar to Schedule III. Prescriptions for Schedule IV drugs may be refilled up to five times within a six month period.

Drugs in this schedule include:

Benzodiazepines, such as alprazolam (Xanax), chlordiazepoxide (Librium), clonazepam (Klonopin), diazepam (Valium) 
temazepam (Restoril) (Note that some states require specially coded prescriptions for temazepam) 
flunitrazepam (Rohypnol) (Note that flunitrazepam is not used medically in the United States); 
The benzodiazepine-like "Z-drugs": Zolpidem (Ambien), Zopiclone, Eszopiclone, and Zaleplon; 
Dextropropoxyphene (Doloxene) and propoxyphene (sold in the U.S. as Darvon, and in combination with acetaminophen as Darvocet); 
Long-acting barbiturates such as phenobarbital; 
Some partial agonist opioid analgesics, such as pentazocine (Talwin); 
The stimulant-like drug modafinil (sold in the U.S. as Provigil) as well as its (R)-enantiometer armodafinil (sold in the U.S. as Nuvigil); 
Antidiarrheal drugs, such as difenoxin, when combined with atropine (Motofen) (difenoxin is 2-3 times more potent then diphenoxylate, the active ingredient in Lomotil, which is in Schedule V); 
[edit] Schedule V controlled substances 
Main article: List of Schedule V drugs (US)
"Placement on schedules; findings required

Except.... The findings required for each of the schedules are as follows:

Schedule V.???

(A) The drug or other substance has a low potential for abuse relative to the drugs or other substances in schedule IV.

(B) The drug or other substance has a currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States.

(C) Abuse of the drug or other substance may lead to limited physical dependence or psychological dependence relative to the drugs or other substances in schedule IV."[23]

No controlled substance in schedule V which is a drug may be distributed or dispensed other than for a medical purpose.[24]

Drugs in this schedule include:

Cough suppressants containing small amounts of codeine (e.g., promethazine+codeine); 
Preparations containing small amounts of opium or diphenoxylate (used to treat diarrhea); 
Pregabalin (Lyrica), an anticonvulsant and pain modulator. 
Pyrovalerone 
Some centrally-acting anti-diarrhoeals, such as diphenoxylate (Lomotil) when mixed with atropine to make it unpleasant for people to grind up, cook, and inject. Difenoxin with atropine (Motofen) has been moved to Schedule IV. Otherwise the drugs are in Schedule II. 
[edit] Other provisions
The federal law has only five schedules, but some states have added a "Schedule VI" to cover certain substances which are not "drugs" in the conventional sense, but are nonetheless used, or abused, recreationally; these include toluene (found in many types of paint, especially spray paint) and similar inhalants such as amyl nitrite (or ???poppers???), butyl nitrite, and nitrous oxide (found in many types of aerosol cans, though it is pharmacologically active, it is considered an inhalant). Many state and local governments enforce age limits on the sale of products containing these substances.

Pharmaceuticals that require a prescription to be dispensed often are not covered under the Controlled Substances Act. This category includes medicines which should only be taken under a doctor's care, or which may have harmful interactions with other substances, but which are not known to be addictive and which are not used recreationally. These medications are used to treat a wide variety of medical conditions and to manage chronic conditions.

Drugs requiring prescriptions are sometimes also known as legend drugs because legislation formerly required labels with the legend, "Caution! Federal law prohibits dispensing without a prescription." The current requirement has been simplified to the legend "Rx only."

The term controlled drugs is sometimes used for scheduled drugs because of the additional controls placed on them (beyond the need for a prescription).

[edit] Federal regulation of pseudoephedrine
Due to pseudoephedrine being widely used in the manufacture of methamphetamine (see also: pseudoephedrine, "Misuse and illicit use"), Congress passed the Methamphetamine Precursor Control Act which places restrictions on the sale of any medicine containing pseudoephedrine. That bill was then superseded by the Combat Methamphetamine Epidemic Act of 2005, which was passed as an amendment to the Patriot Act renewal and included wider and more comprehensive restrictions on the sale of pseudoephedrine containing products. This law requires[25] customer signature of a "log-book" and presentation of valid photo ID to purchase of pseudoephedrine (PSE) containing products from all retailers.[26]

The law restricts an individual to the retail sale of such products to no more than three packages or no more than nine grams in a single transaction (9 grams is equivalent to 300 standard 30 mg tablets of Sudafed nasal decongestant). A violation of this statute constitutes a misdemeanor. In states where OTC medications which contain pseudoephedrine are not regulated, many retailers, notably Target and Wal-Mart have restricted their purchase by requiring it to be sold behind the pharmacy or service counter and/or placing an age restriction on purchase. Additionally, pharmacies such as CVS and Walgreens also require photo ID and log-book signatures for sales of PSE containing products in compliance with Federal law.

Prior to this, the state of Oregon passed a law requiring a prescription for pharmacies to dispense any cold remedy containing pseudoephedrine. Likewise, the states of Alabama, Arizona, Colorado, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, South Carolina, New Mexico, New Jersey, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, Washington, Wisconsin and Wyoming restrict sales of pseudoephedrine-containing products to licensed pharmacies and require customers to show photo ID and sign a log book. California, Maryland, and Maine have also enacted degrees of controlled access to over the counter drugs that contain pseudoephedrine. This affects many preparations which were previously available over-the-counter without restriction, such as Actifed, their generic equivalents, etc. California Health and Safety Code sections 11100 and 11106 specify the new restrictions regarding over the counter (OTC) sale of ephedrine or pseudoephedrine containing products (PSE).


----------



## brk_nemesis (Jan 22, 2010)

dg806 said:


> thats the kicker though. these substances should not be illegal in the first place. If you study scheduled drugs, they each have a list that make them addictive, side effects and so on and that is how they decide what is illegal. Steriods and ph's fit NONE of thest profiles.


True,... but then again look back at the hearings of anabolics, and I mean the very first hearings right before the first ban. The FDA, DEA, etc did not want them banned, illegal or put on the list. They basically didnt want to waste the manpower enforcing banned substances that didnt need to be banned in the first place. Yet,..... the gov't did it anyway.


----------



## ZECH (Jan 22, 2010)

brk_nemesis said:


> True,... but then again look back at the hearings of anabolics, and I mean the very first hearings right before the first ban. The FDA, DEA, etc did not want them banned, illegal or put on the list. They basically didnt want to waste the manpower enforcing banned substances that didnt need to be banned in the first place. Yet,..... the gov't did it anyway.



Yep and we keep re-electing these idiots year after year. Time for new blood. Lets get lifetime politicians out of office.


----------



## KelJu (Jan 23, 2010)

dg806 said:


> thats the kicker though. these substances should not be illegal in the first place. If you study scheduled drugs, they each have a list that make them addictive, side effects and so on and that is how they decide what is illegal. Steriods and ph's fit NONE of thest profiles.





Ummm, that is a crock O' shit. Lsd, psilocybin, GHB, peyote, ibogaine, marijuana, ketamine...the list goes on and on for drugs that are scheduled, but not addictive. Hell, most of the ones I just listed: psilocybin, GHB, ibogaine, peyote, and lsd are good for you when used properly. One study was done by the Johns Hopkins Institute no long ago showing tons of positive benefits from the drugs I listed. There is absolutely no hard proof that these drugs are addictive. More so, these drugs are much safer than alcohol and tobacco.   

However alcohol and nicotine are legal, and CDC studies report that they are better predictors of concurrent illicit hard drug use. 

I am with you that steriods and GH should be legal. However you sound very hypocritical. You want to be able to legally do steroids, but you say anything else should remain illegal because their addictive quality and/or side effects. 
That is complete and utter bullshit. Steroids have a bad name because a few jerks died from misuse or beat the shit out of their wife and claimed roid rage as a defense. The exact same is true for many scheduled drugs. Some asshat did something stupid, or hurt himself, and blamed a harmless drug as the scapegoat.


----------



## ZECH (Jan 23, 2010)

KelJu said:


> Ummm, that is a crock O' shit. Lsd, psilocybin, GHB, peyote, ibogaine, marijuana, ketamine...the list goes on and on for drugs that are scheduled, but not addictive. Hell, most of the ones I just listed: psilocybin, GHB, ibogaine, peyote, and lsd are good for you when used properly. One study was done by the Johns Hopkins Institute no long ago showing tons of positive benefits from the drugs I listed. There is absolutely no hard proof that these drugs are addictive. More so, these drugs are much safer than alcohol and tobacco.
> 
> However alcohol and nicotine are legal, and CDC studies report that they are better predictors of concurrent illicit hard drug use.
> 
> ...



I see your line of thinking.....let me rephrase my statement....
I am not arguing for or against what is already banned before steroids. That was established long before steroids were banned. Weather or not all of them have addictive or bad side effects may or may not be true. I certainly think that some are bad. Others like you mentioned GH, I think fit into the steroid catagory that are not harmful if used correctly. I'm not here to argue those, as I am not familiar enough with any of them to really make a decision. I am just talking basic steroids, if used correctly and not abused, can be helpful, especially for older men.


----------



## KelJu (Jan 23, 2010)

dg806 said:


> I see your line of thinking.....let me rephrase my statement....
> I am not arguing for or against what is already banned before steroids. That was established long before steroids were banned. Weather or not all of them have addictive or bad side effects may or may not be true. I certainly think that some are bad. Others like you mentioned GH, I think fit into the steroid catagory that are not harmful if used correctly. I'm not here to argue those, as I am not familiar enough with any of them to really make a decision. I am just talking basic steroids, if used correctly and not abused, can be helpful, especially for older men.



But that isn't fair. You have a strong valid argument for the free use of steroids and other performance enhancing drugs. You have done the research, and you want to be heard. You want a fair and balanced discussion on the matter. But, at the same time you don't want to do the research on other banned drugs, so that you can have a fair and balanced discussion with someone who is in the exact same boat as you, only with a different substance. 

Let me pose a ethical question. You pull a young male over for not wearing his seat-belt. When you ask for his registration, you notice he is very nervous. You ask to search his car, and you find a bottle of testosterone propionate and some syringes. You talk the the guy for a bit and you find out he has no criminal record, he is a radiologist at the local hospital, and he bought the steroids recently. Would you have any hesitation to arrest him? Would you arrest him? 

What if the exact same situation happened, only the drug in question was a a jar of mushrooms and a small bag of grass? What you have any hesitation to arrest him? Would you arrest him? Do you think in your mind that he deserves to be arrested? 

These questions are important. These type of situations happen all of the time, and people's lives are ruined depending on how it is handled.

I know you guys get sick of hearing this shit from me. I don't go to the time and trouble of making the same arguments over and over because it is fun. I am trying to help people see things from a new perspective. I want people to think about this just as you want people to think about the truth of steroids. There is no difference between you and I here. You can't say I want steroids to be talked about, but I don't care about the other stuff, because I don't really know much about it.


----------



## GearsMcGilf (Jan 23, 2010)

lennoxchi said:


> even gorillas can shave.....you can teach them to do all kinds of things, even be teachers.....


 
Hahahhahahhahahhahahha!  They can even be Not Bigs and be trained to be smart asses also apparently!


----------



## ZECH (Jan 24, 2010)

KJ, it is sad that no matter what either of us want, there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. And no matter what I or you think, we both have our opinions and everyone else will too. That is where it makes it tuff. We could argue for years and never come to a conclussion. Do we make everything legal, or do we make everything illegal? Personally I don't think we can make EVERYTHING legal, and I have no idea what I would make legal if I could. I know personal choice means alot to you and it does me too!


----------



## GearsMcGilf (Jan 24, 2010)

dg806 said:


> thats the kicker though. these substances should not be illegal in the first place. If you study scheduled drugs, they each have a list that make them addictive, side effects and so on and that is how they decide what is illegal. Steriods and ph's fit NONE of thest profiles.


 
IDK that AAS are not addictive and without sides.  I know from experience how hard it is to get the gear monkey off your back once you venture into the darkside.  WO while on gear is like driving a Ferrari and once you stop, it's like downsizing to a 1984 station wagon.  Once you stop, all you can think about is getting back on another cycle.  Plus, when you're mid 30s and stronger and leaner than at 20, it's hard to stay off for very long.  I think the logic behind banning AAS is just as sound as banning any other drug.  

I can't honestly say that I think AAS should be legal.  Although, I think it'd be a lot cooler if they were!


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 24, 2010)

Roids1 said:


> IDK that AAS are not addictive and without sides. I know from experience how hard it is to get the gear monkey off your back once you venture into the darkside. WO while on gear is like driving a Ferrari and once you stop, it's like downsizing to a 1984 station wagon. Once you stop, all you can think about is getting back on another cycle. Plus, when you're mid 30s and stronger and leaner than at 20, it's hard to stay off for very long. I think the logic behind banning AAS is just as sound as banning any other drug.
> 
> I can't honestly say that I think AAS should be legal. Although, I think it'd be a lot cooler if they were!


 
As soon as something becomes illegal it becomes a commodity, and organised crime has far greater resources than any govt with no restrictions on how they operate.

The only sensible option is to plow money into education, not law enforcement.


----------



## ZECH (Jan 25, 2010)

Roids1 said:


> IDK that AAS are not addictive and without sides.  I know from experience how hard it is to get the gear monkey off your back once you venture into the darkside.  WO while on gear is like driving a Ferrari and once you stop, it's like downsizing to a 1984 station wagon.  Once you stop, all you can think about is getting back on another cycle.  Plus, when you're mid 30s and stronger and leaner than at 20, it's hard to stay off for very long.  I think the logic behind banning AAS is just as sound as banning any other drug.
> 
> I can't honestly say that I think AAS should be legal.  Although, I think it'd be a lot cooler if they were!



I think you bring up some very good points.


----------

