# Benching and workout routine...



## Seanp156 (Nov 11, 2004)

I've been working out for a while, but I'm really not sure if I'm doing things right to improve how I want to. I don't have a partner so I've been benching using the smith machine. Is that a bad thing? The bars movement is fixed, so you're using less muscles to move the weight. Also, I tend to do multiple arm exercises each time I go. Should I divide these up throughout the week rather than doing many at once?


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## Mudge (Nov 11, 2004)

I can't stand the smith for flat benching but I can accept it for incline work. It is completely unnatural for me to use it on a flat press, and honestly I do not press in a completely straight line - so it does not work well for me at all. I had to discover this the painfull way, I can't bench as much on a flat smith at all, honest truth, it hurts because its wrong.

Specify multiple arm exercises...?  I stick to basics myself, I do 2 types of movements for both triceps and biceps and my sets are pretty moderate in volume, high intensity and often mid to heavy weights by rep count.


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## Seanp156 (Nov 11, 2004)

Well, I've been doing seated curls for a while, and close grip benches for triceps as well as seated wrist curl and behind the back wrist curls, and a rotary should machine for triceps. 

 I'm actually kind of concerned I'm over training and thinking I need to work out a new plan. I pretty much always go to the gym 3 times a week for 1.5 - 2 hours, but I haven't made a whole lot of improvement from 4-6 months ago. Sure I can use more weight on some things, but on other things it's not nearly as much as I'd like.


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## Mudge (Nov 11, 2004)

Oh wow, unless you are doing cardio try to avoid anything over 1 hour. After about 45 minutes your hormone levels start to drop, so you are half way wasting your time... I dont do lots of forearm work but I do some, and I dont do any behind the back stuff EVER, its unnatural IMO. No shrugs, no curls behind the neck, but thats just my thoughts, some people are ok with it. You use your forearms to hold all your weights also, so keep in mind they have already done some "sets," so dont try to duplicate a tricep/bicep routine in terms of set count with forearms. You'd be inviting RMI/Carpel Tunnel.



> Well, I've been doing seated curls for a while, and close grip benches for triceps as well as seated wrist curl and behind the back wrist curls, and a rotary should machine for triceps.



You dont do your whole routine in one day do you? You dont really mention how your split is... For me 4 days a week works, its a balance between time out of the gym resting and recouping, and not having too long of a workout in your sessions when you are in the gym.


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## CowPimp (Nov 11, 2004)

Listen to Mudge.  That is some good advice.  Why don't you spell out your routine in detail for more specific critiquing.


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## Seanp156 (Nov 11, 2004)

Well, here's what I usually do in a day at the gym, I'll try to list things in order that I do them, but sometimes I change a few minor things.

 1.Benchpress (I don't do both close and wide in the same day)
      a. Close grip- usually start out with about 70 lbs on the smith machine and do a set of about 6-8 reps, then I'll add about 10 lbs to each side and do as many more reps as I can, usually around 4-6.
      b. Wide grip- Usually start with about 90 lbs, do 12 reps, add 5 lbs to each side, do 6 reps, add 5 more to each side, do 6 reps, take 5 lbs off each side and do 6 more.

 2. Seated bicep curls- Start with 50 lbs on the 25 lbs curl bar, do about 8 reps, add 5 to each side and do as many as I can, usually around 4-6 reps.

 3. Seated wrist curls- Start with the same weight as bicep curls, do 8-10 reps, add 5 lbs to each side and do about 8 more

 4. Behind the back wrirst curls- For this I use the bench bar instead of the curl bar. I usually add 25 lbs to each side, do 8 reps, add 10 to each side and do 6-8 more.

 5. Rear-Delt machine- Start out with about 55 lbs, do 12 reps, add a 2.5 or 5 lbs rubber weight and do about 8-12 more reps.

 6. Rotary shoulder machine- Start out with around 100lbs, do 8 reps, take it to 115 lbs, do about 6, take it to 130 lbs do about 4 reps.

 6. Butterfly machine- start out with 115lbs, do 15 reps, take it to 130 lbs, do 15 more reps.

 8. Seated-Row machine- Start out with around 100 lbs, do 8 reps, take it to 115lbs do 6-8 reps, take it to 130 lbs if I'm feeling good, do about 4-6 reps.

 9. Lateral Pull Downs (machine with different handles and a pully system, I don't know the name of it). This one I have a problem with because I can't get enough weight on it to really challenge me. The max on it's 200 lbs so I usually start at that, and then I find as many rubber 2.5-5 lbs weights as I can and throw them on. I usually do 3 sets of around 10-12 because I can't get enough weight on it. Is there any way to rig the discs on it?

 10. Stretch, then do about 20-30 pushups, walk around the track a few minutes, then do 10 pullups.

 In between I'll usually do 15-20 minutes of cardio either running 1-2 mile around the track, 20 mins on the bike or elliptical. However I just got back from my workout today and I did do cardio, but I did most of my weight lifting first.

 Today I flat benched using the normal bar instead of the smith machine and I was only doing about 90 lbs. I was having trouble becase my muscles aren't used to balancing the bar because I was using the smith machine a lot and I'm trying to transition now, but I also don't have a partner who can spot me. Should I just keep benching 90 lbs until I can balance it easily, or keep increasing weight?

 Benchpressing is my major weakness, for a few reasons. I'm not very big, although I'm not small either I'm about 5'11 or 6' and weigh 160 lbs. The other reason is I don't have someone to spot me, so I can't really push myself, I got trapped once and that was definately not cool, one of the most embarrasing things ever.


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## Duncans Donuts (Nov 11, 2004)

Where is the leg work?  The Squats, Leg Presses, Deadlifts?  You need to revamp your routine.  I don't see hardly any kind of back work, either...


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## nmuriqi (Nov 11, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> You'd be inviting RMI/Carpel Tunnel.



What is that exactly?


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## Mudge (Nov 11, 2004)

For bench you need a good strong back (lats) and proper form as well. I see you do very little back work, no traps, and no leg work. Also, how many days a week do you do this program? I would suggest a more traditional routine, although if you really like to do full body or half body workouts more frequently you could try HST. I dont feel that flat benching with a smith allows for proper form with maximal strength, you are probably benching higher on the chest than I do though, still, not my prefered way 

Here is some stuff on HST, be sure to dig through all the posts in the thread as I believe the info is spread around a bit.
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=9008



> 4. Behind the back wrirst curls- For this I use the bench bar instead of the curl bar.



You always want to use a straight bar or a dumbell to do these, not an EZ curl bar.


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## Mudge (Nov 11, 2004)

nmuriqi said:
			
		

> What is that exactly?



Repetitive Motion Injury, which would usually be carpel tunnel syndrome (CTS). This comes from excessive friction on the tendons that run through your carpel tunnel in your hand, from using your fingers under high stress or excessive frequency (typing, checkout clerks).


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## Seanp156 (Nov 11, 2004)

I'm just kind of confused on what to do now...I don't know if I should stop lifting for a week or two to make sure my body's not overtrained, and while I'm taking a break come up with a new routine,or if I should just read through some stuff and change my routine immediately, or if I should go to our school's gym with some of my friends and get tips from them ( a couple over them are very strong, at least comparatively to what I'm used to they do around 250-350 lbs bench presses).


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## Duncans Donuts (Nov 11, 2004)

3-4 day a week would be a good start.  Try and not workout on subsequent days so you can get good rest - also, make sure you have a clean, healthy diet.

You suffer from a typical overdoing of the upperbody that a lot of novices do.  You focus on your chest, arms, and completely ignore the largest muscle groups (back, legs).  This is a huge mistake, especially considering your working basically just 3 muscle groups for 2 hours multiple times a week.

Don't neglect squats (if you can't do squats, do leg presses), deadlifts, or rows (pullups with weight work too).  There are plenty of people who will give you advice on training splits around here, I would trust them over people who might benchpress alot at your gym relative to you.


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## Seanp156 (Nov 11, 2004)

Hmm....Would anyone be able to come up with a workout plan for me? I'm not really sure I trust myself to make one up now. Would it be a good idea for me to take a break for a week or two? Also, it might be good to talk to someone in real-time about changing/adjusting my rountine, so if you have the time my aol screen name is seanp156. I really need to know what I should do differently each day, each week, if I should take a break every month or two etc.


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## Seanp156 (Nov 12, 2004)

Is a routine that will work for me basically trial and error on my part, or is there a way to plan things from the start that will work for me?


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## Seanp156 (Nov 13, 2004)

I just thought I'd share this website, don't know if it's been posted before but here it is http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Directory.html  It has a huge list of exercises, how to do them, what muscles they work, and animations of them.


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## KarlW (Nov 13, 2004)

Seanp156 said:



> Hmm....Would anyone be able to come up with a workout plan for me?



be happy to (as many others would), however........

What are your goals, your age, your body type, your current diet etc etc....

Don't stress, it'll work out for the better. I would stop what your doing for 4 or 5 days and rethink (with help from here) what you want to achieve and how your'e going to go about it.

cheers
karl


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## Seanp156 (Nov 13, 2004)

KarlW said:
			
		

> Seanp156 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Cool, well I guess my goals are probably pretty much the same as most people. I want to be bigger, stronger more muscular pretty much everywhere on my body. Right now, I feel like a big goal would be being able to bench my own body weight.

 I'm 18 and I'm around 5'11 or 6' and weigh 155-160 lbs. My arms and legs are fairly long, so it's a bit difficult for me to add muscle to them quickly, but I have notice my arms have definately improved in the last few months, just not as fast as I'd like. I also need to get more leg and back workouts in my routine. My current diet is pretty random I guess, and probably not the healthiest. Sometimes I'll have a nice big salad with chicken in it, other times a McDonalds 1/4 pounder, pizza, a chicken sandwich, a PB/J sandwich, a sub with lettuce and meat, a bagel, cereal, waffel etc......


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## sabre81 (Nov 13, 2004)

i vote for ditiching the smith machine for bench press.


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## Seanp156 (Nov 13, 2004)

I'm already going to do that.


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## KarlW (Nov 13, 2004)

yep for sure, inclines are OK on smith though, a personal thing!

for bench you can use DB's or get someone to spot you on the bar. I tend to go for DB's, others may disagree.

Sean, we can work on your routine slowly. What you need to do first is re-think your strategy and your mindset towards getting big.

If your???e serious........and if I can be blunt in my approach.....forget your arms for a while, at least in principle. Learn, carefully and intelligently, the correct form in dead lifts, squats, rows (barbell or t-bar), shoulder press, and of course bench press. Take it slowly, use light weights for a while and increase gradually. You MUST work on very good form, ask people, look around this site and others you can find. I'm assuming you don't have any pre-existing back problems (from injury or some disease), because if you do you should seek medical advice first.

You need to build a routine around these lifts. The 'BIG' look comes from having a thick/wide back, big thighs, nice chest, wide shoulders and thick traps. The arms will develop proportionately as a result of working the larger muscle groups. Also plenty of rest between workouts will help.

Let???s see, good workout for you for starters would be:

3 days a week - Mon / Wed / Fri

Mon: Legs

Squats 3 x 8-10
Leg Press 3 x 8-10
Calf Raise 3 x 8-10
SL Deadlifts w/ DB???s 3 x 8-10
Leg Curls 1 x 8-10


Wed: Chest / Shoulders

DB bench press 3 x 8-10
Dips 3 x 8-10
Millitary Press 3 x 8-10
Upright rows 2 x 8-10
Close Grip Bench Press 2 x 8-10

Fri: Back

Pull Ups: 3 x 6
Deadlift: 3 x 8-10
DB Row: 2 x 8-10
DB Shrugs: 2 x 8-10
Barbell Curls: 2 x 8-10


There???s your workout for the next 4 weeks. Concentrate on form and ???feeling??? the lifts, don???t worry whether you can lift what you think is heavy or not, that will come later. Anything your'e not sure about just ask.

Please note I do not claim to be an expert and there a guys around here who know way more than me???????????????.I???m just offering help.

Then there's REST and DIET:

REST: Overlooked by new starters and even some who claim to be experienced. It's a personal thing, but I never work out 2 days in a row. Later on you can (esp since you're young) but not more than 4 days a week.
After a workout, the muscle group needs adequate rest in order to grow.

DIET: Increase your calories from as much good sources as possible. If you aren't gaining weight now then add 500-1000 cal per day. Look around for protein rich foods, fruit and veg, and quality carbs.

cheers
Karl


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## KarlW (Nov 13, 2004)

apologies, I mentioned learning barbell rows then had DB rows in the routine. Stick with the DB rows for now, BB and t-bars you can do later.


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## KarlW (Nov 13, 2004)

Sean, forgot to add..........

b4 each workout, warm up with 5 min treadmill or bike, then stretch for 5 min, then some warm up sets in the exercises you're doing that day.

your warm up sets must start light but end up fairly close (80%) to your 1st working set. Don't go anywhere near failure in your warm up sets.

With your working sets, adjust the weight so you can do the nominated amount of reps, which will take some guesswork.

eg say for squats:

After 5 min bike and stretching:
warm up sets: 45lb (bar only) x 10 (easy), 95lb x 8 (easy), 135lb x 6 (fairly easy)

working sets: 150lb x 8, 135lb x 9, 125lb x 8


This is just an example of how it might go, don't worry about the actual weights I've got their.


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## Seanp156 (Nov 13, 2004)

Thanks , so for the working sets I should always work down in weight as I progress in sets?

 Also, on a lot of this stuff, I haven't really done it before, or I've only done it in a different form (example, seated row on a machine, but not standing with a barbell). So, I'm not really sure how much weight I can/should use for the amount of sets/reps I'm doing while maintaining proper form.


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## KarlW (Nov 13, 2004)

> so for the working sets I should always work down in weight as I progress in sets?



Not as a rule, it's just that you may not get the same # reps out on the 2nd and 3rd set at the same weight. If you do then great. Unfortunately like I said it's a bit of guesswork, but it's worth it. Learning this will set you up for more involved stuff later on. Another method is to INCREASE the weight for each set and do less reps (known as pyramiding) but I wouldn't bother; after adequate warm up sets you want to be freshest for the heaviest sets. Make sure you record your lifts (weight and #reps) in a book or table or something. That way the following week you know exactly what to aim for.

As for the other stuff on weight and form. Simple rule - Start light (too light) but maintain form. The first 2-3 weeks will probably just be getting a feel for the weight and form of the exercises. DON"T WORRY you won't be losing anything, in the long run it will be well worth it.

eg For deadlifts 1st week your working sets might be 135lb or so I dunno the point is better to be too light and learn correct form than try and go heavy too early. In the 1st week, even the 2nd, you don't want to be straining on new exercises (particularly squats/deads etc).

Hope it helps....

Karl


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## Seanp156 (Nov 14, 2004)

I'm assuming by DB rows you mean the kind bent over a bench with your knee on the bench?

 Anyway thanks for the help, my routine will probably be tuesday/thursday/saturday rather than mon/wed/friday, but it's the same thing, I just can't really get the the gym either of the 3 days of mon/wed/fri. I guess I should start this week.


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## KarlW (Nov 14, 2004)

Sean,

yes to the DB rows. Another good way is to just lean on the DB rack with the other hand and row the DB, makes you work a bit harder.

Anyway good luck with it. It's a solid routine that will teach you those lifts needed to put on mass. Later on you get get fancy and do other stuff. I'd stick to the basic routine for about 6 weeks then you can look at changing it up.

Karl


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## soxmuscle (Nov 14, 2004)

I don't know about not having any bicep or tricep work..


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## Robboe (Nov 14, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> I can't stand the smith for flat benching but I can accept it for incline work.



Agreed. Although i do like CG benches on the smith.


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## Seanp156 (Nov 14, 2004)

soxmuscle said:
			
		

> I don't know about not having any bicep or tricep work..


 Yeah, I'm a bit concerned about that as well, the only thing that will work my triceps that I see is the close grip bench press, and there's nothing for biceps. Any particular reason for leaving them out KarlW?


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## KarlW (Nov 14, 2004)

> I don't know about not having any bicep or tricep work..



This is a basic 3 day split to get Sean in the groove of the main lifts. The biceps are hit doing pull ups, DB rows and barbell curls. Triceps are hit doing bench, dips and close grip bench.

You could stretch it to a 4 day split (which is what I would have envisaged for you) in 6 or 8 weeks that would incorporate more direct arm work.

Sean, I', trying to get you to take the focus off your arms for a while. If you want to get big you need to learn the compund lifts without worrying about concentration curls and kickbacks and butterflies and such, they will come later. If you add mass to your torso and thighs, and the arms will go along for the ride. Anyway, it's up to you.



> Agreed. Although i do like CG benches on the smith.



Yeah even they start to feel a bit funny after a while, like you're pushing yourself away from the bar in the horizontal. I've gone back to doing them on normal bench press.

Karl


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## Randy (Nov 14, 2004)

sabre81 said:
			
		

> i vote for ditiching the smith machine for bench press.


Me too.   I agree with Mudge, it feels very unnatural and awkward to say the least.  I do like the self spotting free benches though where they have like hooks built in all the way up and down.  This way if you're running into any trouble you just kick the bar back so it rests on the hooks.  I tried one of the quality machines like this at a local gym equipment dealer.  It worked very well.


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## Randy (Nov 14, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> dont try to duplicate a tricep/bicep routine in terms of set count with forearms. You'd be inviting RMI/Carpel Tunnel.


I've never heard of anyone experiencing carpel Tunnel from doing forearm exercises Mudge. I know that anything the puts stress on the tendons throughout your hand/wrist can cause it. As most everyone knows continous typing on computers can cause it (especially with improper posture) and not taking adaquate breaks where you stretch your wrists and allow the blood to flow through properly. I've also know someone who claims that doing a lot of dips caused them to get carpal tunnel. I remember when I had bad wrists, the dips really did put a lot of pressure on my wrists, so I wouldn't doubt it could attribute to carpal tunnel. Forearms though again...that's a new one on me.Now maybe RMI, not sure what that is? Is it repetative motion injury?


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## Mudge (Nov 14, 2004)

Its just that much more workload is all, I'm not saying it WILL cause it just that it can. So I do not believe in excess.

A couple sets are all thats needed, not 8-12 or anything like another bodypart, I wont even do the 5 sets I used to. Correct on RMI.


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## Randy (Nov 15, 2004)

I usually work 3 sets of 10-12 of forearms and they always feel great.. But I guess it all depends on the person. I know you lift with extreme heavy weights, and with certain exercises like forearms might cause problems. I can usually feel how heavy I want to push myself before I feel injury could take place.. I back off before that point.

I also built one of those wrist/forearm ropes where I took a length of 3/4 pvc , drilled hole in center, threaded rope through hole, tied knot and added weights at the end of the rope. I try to work that it as well. That one does wonders for your wrists and forearms. 

Carpal Tunnel really sucks though, and if I thought I was putting myself at risk for that I would definately steer clear. I've had friends that have had that and had to have operations and what not...It is a bad thing to have.

Wrists are most important to me... I used to have problems with my wrists due to an accident of falling and using my wrists to break the fall...  They were really bad for a long time.  But after focusing little by little on building them up doing wrist curls, they feel much better now.


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## Seanp156 (Nov 16, 2004)

Well, I just got back from the gym doing the first split of my new workout (the legs one posted by KarlW). All went well, except the SL Dead Lifts with dumbbells seemed to work my back more than my legs, I didn't really feel a lot of strain in my legs while doing it.


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## Randy (Nov 16, 2004)

Dead Lifts are intended to work your lower back.
That is one area I have been lacking. In fact I just started rotating them within my own routine. They are very good for strengthening your lower back I hear. 

Here is a good reference to many of the exercises available. Maybe this will give you some more ideas for your legs.


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## Seanp156 (Nov 16, 2004)

That site lists Deadlifts and SL Deadlifts under the Hip Exercise category though, I really don't feel anything in my hips being worked during deadlifts, at least not SL deadlifts.


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## Randy (Nov 16, 2004)

You need sex for that


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## KarlW (Nov 16, 2004)

Hi Sean,

SL deadlifts are quite different from regular deadlifts. Granted they do work the lower back as well as the hammies but if you don't feel it in your hammies THE NEXT DAY (not when you do them) then you're doing them wrong. IF done correctly, your hammies will kill the next day.

check the vid on this page for the correct form.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/lance.htm#videos 

I'm not saying that you're not doing them properly, but they are supposed to work the hammies moreso than the back. Regular  deadlifts definately work the back.

Take a while to get them to feel right cause they are worth it. If you end up still not liken em no matter just do some other hamstring exercise (setaed leg curls???).

Karl


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## CowPimp (Nov 16, 2004)

Seanp156 said:
			
		

> That site lists Deadlifts and SL Deadlifts under the Hip Exercise category though, I really don't feel anything in my hips being worked during deadlifts, at least not SL deadlifts.



Most likely you are not keeping your back tight.  Your are probably slouching forward.  I used to do the same thing, and it requires a lot more lower back involvement.


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## Randy (Nov 16, 2004)

I watched this Bench video from the bodybuilding.com link.
The guy bounces the bar off his chest. That isn't a good practice 
Well maybe it just looked that way.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/lancebenchdsl.wvx


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## CowPimp (Nov 16, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> I watched this Bench video from the bodybuilding.com link.
> The guy bounces the bar off his chest. That isn't a good practice
> Well maybe it just looked that way.
> 
> http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/lancebenchdsl.wvx



He is also causing undue rotator cuff stress by keeping his upper arms perpendicular to his body when he bench presses.


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## Randy (Nov 16, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Most likely you are not keeping your back tight. Your are probably slouching forward. I used to do the same thing, and it requires a lot more lower back involvement.


I didn't throw my lower back out yet on deads, so that's a good sign.
Mudge mentioned a good tip though with regular dead..  To help keep proper form imagine someone has attached a cable to your back and is pulling you from behind.  Keep your head always level and looking forward with back arched.

I'm looking forward to doing more deads so I can master the technique and help build a strong lower back.


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## Randy (Nov 16, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> He is also causing undue rotator cuff stress by keeping his upper arms perpendicular to his body when he bench presses.


Yeah I was thinking the same thing.  I move my grip in just a little closer.


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## CowPimp (Nov 16, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> I didn't throw my lower back out yet on deads, so that's a good sign.
> Mudge mentioned a good tip though with regular dead..  To help keep proper form imagine someone has attached a cable to your back and is pulling you from behind.  Keep your head always level and looking forward with back arched.
> 
> I'm looking forward to doing more deads so I can master the technique and help build a strong lower back.



Well, I was referring to the guy I quoted.  However, I do think Mudge's explanation is good.  Basically, keep your back and abs tight, pull your shoulder blades together (I know it makes it hard to reach the bar), use Mudge's imagery, and push your head into your traps while humping (Moving your hips forward; this should naturally occur after pushing your head back).


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## Randy (Nov 16, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> push your head into your traps while humping (Moving your hips forward; this should naturally occur after pushing your head back).


  I think I might just try this tonight.


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## CowPimp (Nov 16, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> I think I might just try this tonight.



What's with the eye rolling?


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## Mudge (Nov 16, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> To help keep proper form imagine someone has attached a cable to your back and is pulling you from behind.  Keep your head always level and looking forward with back arched.



I think I said an imaginary weight but whatever, so long as you make it work for you, its really a mental thing.


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## Seanp156 (Nov 17, 2004)

KarlW said:
			
		

> Hi Sean,
> 
> SL deadlifts are quite different from regular deadlifts. Granted they do work the lower back as well as the hammies but if you don't feel it in your hammies THE NEXT DAY (not when you do them) then you're doing them wrong. IF done correctly, your hammies will kill the next day.
> 
> ...


I think my problem might have been moving my legs a bit too much, although I still didn't move them much at all. Anyway, my legs kill today after that routine lol, from my butt down to my calves....

Also, I think it MIGHT be easier for me to have the correct form on SL deadlifts with a barbell instead of using DB's...


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## KarlW (Nov 17, 2004)

Sean, cool   

With SL deads you must get your butt and hammies sort of squeezed and stick your butt out a bit before you descend, and remember to keep your legs slightly bent.

Here's another look:

http://www.stumptuous.com/baddl.html 

With regular deads (on your back day) another tip is to keep your butt down and your head and shoulders up (looking staright ahead and up slightly). This will ensure your back is angled up and not slouched forward.

Karl


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## KarlW (Nov 17, 2004)

Oh yeah, by all means use a barbell, I only went for DB's for variety.
Remember to keep the bar close to your legs as you go through the movement


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## Randy (Nov 17, 2004)

Did I leave that word out "Imaginary?"   
That's what I meant.. Thanks for clarifying that Mudge. 




			
				Mudge said:
			
		

> I think I said an imaginary weight but whatever, so long as you make it work for you, its really a mental thing.


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## Randy (Nov 17, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> What's with the eye rolling?
> 
> Originally Posted by *CowPimp*
> _push your head into your traps while *humping* (*Moving your hips forward*; This should naturally occur after pushing your head back )._




_Oh just teasin ya Cow... It's just that your statement sounded sexual to me   You couldn't see that with the wording I extracted from your quote?  _

_That is why I tossed in the rolling eyes._


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## Mudge (Nov 17, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> Did I leave that word out "Imaginary?"
> That's what I meant.. Thanks for clarifying that Mudge.



Its basically to take your mind off of the conciousness of a weight pulling you forward, and to make you keep the bar as "far back" as you can, hence the rubbing of the thighs and such.


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## Randy (Nov 17, 2004)

Yes, sounds like a great psychological tool to help one use proper form through the exercise


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## allpro (Nov 17, 2004)

KarlW said:
			
		

> This is a basic 3 day split to get Sean in the groove of the main lifts. The biceps are hit doing pull ups, DB rows and barbell curls. Triceps are hit doing bench, dips and close grip bench.
> 
> You could stretch it to a 4 day split (which is what I would have envisaged for you) in 6 or 8 weeks that would incorporate more direct arm work.
> 
> ...


SOUNDS LIKE SOLID ADVICE


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## Seanp156 (Nov 18, 2004)

Earlier today I did this section of the routine:
   Wed: Chest / Shoulders

   DB bench press 3 x 8-10
   Dips 3 x 8-10
   Millitary Press 3 x 8-10
   Upright rows 2 x 8-10
   Close Grip Bench Press 2 x 8-10

 Only thing I really had trouble with was the military press, felt kind of awkward for some reason like it worked my upper back more than my chest. The upright rows felt a little weird too, I'm not sure why. For some reason I feel like I'm starting over almost totally, I could hardly add any weight to the barbell when I did 10 reps. I feel so weak, lol.


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## CowPimp (Nov 18, 2004)

Seanp156 said:
			
		

> Earlier today I did this section of the routine:
> Wed: Chest / Shoulders
> 
> DB bench press 3 x 8-10
> ...



That's a good loking routine.  Just keep at it.  Progression is the key.


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## Seanp156 (Nov 18, 2004)

Yeah, I'm a bit confused knowing when, and by how much I should increase weight on specific exercises, any suggestions? I guess the simplest thing I can think of is increase it when it's not challenge to do the alloted sets/reps.


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## Randy (Nov 18, 2004)

Seanp156 said:
			
		

> Earlier today I did this section of the routine:
> Wed: Chest / Shoulders
> 
> DB bench press 3 x 8-10
> ...


Sean,

Military Press should be primarily working your Delts, not a lot of focus on chest.


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## KarlW (Nov 18, 2004)

> For some reason I feel like I'm starting over almost totally



Good cause you practically are!.

As for military presses, they are for the shoulders not the chest. There is a variety of ways you can do them (standing, seated, with barbell or DB, etc). I usually find seated with DB's the best, although I do standing BB presses sometimes. Just be careful about doing them behind the neck (have a read about this elsewhere so you can make up your own mind).

Upright rows, if done correctly DO take some getting use to AND are not supposed to be done with massive amounts of weight. What you say is good, means you're taking it nice and slow. When you achieve the upper limit of the rep range for a set (like 10 in the case of 3 x 8-10) before failure then you need to increase the weight. By how much? only you will know through experience.

eg Say your first set upright rows is the bar + 5lbs a side (so 55lbs) and you get 10 just on failure, I wouldn't increase the weight for the next set because you probably won't have as much strength/endurance for the 2nd set so leave the weight as it is. However, if you got 10 reps easy then you'd need to up it 5 or 10 lbs for the next set.

When you go back in the next week, you look at your notes, if you got 10 reps on 55lbs, then for you first set I would add 10lbs, maybe you'd get 7 or 8 reps, OK then drop back to 55 for the 2nd set. It takes some practice and experience but it keeps you focused.

Important thing is to stay in the rep range. Don't pack on weight if you know you're only going to get 4 reps when you should be getting at least 8.

cheers


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## Randy (Nov 18, 2004)

KarlW said:
			
		

> As for military presses, they are for the shoulders not the chest.


Is there an echo in here ?


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## BaNaNaS (Nov 18, 2004)

Karl, this has really helped me out a lot. I've switched to this too. I would like to thank you. And ask if you could create a day for arms to throw in too. Thanks in advance. One other thing today when i was doing dips. First set i got 8, second 4, and third 4. Would you suggest going for 3 sets of 6? Or is what i did fine, just go for 8-10 all 3 sets next thursday?


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## Randy (Nov 18, 2004)

If you want to get strong then you want to keep pushing the envelope..
If you do 8 then wait 15-30 seconds and do 2 more right away to make 10. Then rest a minute to 1.5 and do as many as you can do. If you were doing 4 then push for 6. Then rest a few seconds an pick up the remaining till you can do 10. That is how you build yourself up. Before you know it you will be adding weight.


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## KarlW (Nov 18, 2004)

> Originally Posted by *Randy*
> 
> Is there an echo in here ?



Yeah, I started my post before I read yours and took a phone call in the middle of it. LOL


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## KarlW (Nov 18, 2004)

Bananas, adding arms changes the whole routine around. I'll post something soon.

As for the dips, stay in the 8 -10 rep range. You could drop to 6 (subsequently adding some weight on your first set) IF you wanted to head towards a more power oriented workout (like you would for P/RR/S). However, the original routine I posted was just something to get Sean started, for which purpose the 8-10 RR is best.


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## Seanp156 (Nov 18, 2004)

Now that I've switch from mainly an all arm routine to a balanced routine, I can see that my arms are definately stronger than my chest, back, legs etc proportionately. Right now, I can probably curl the same amount of weight that I can do close grip benches with, which I believe is the opposite of how it's supposed to be (well, bench more and curl less anyway).  Dips are tough, first set I didn't use an assisted weight, but the 2nd one I used 20lbs, and the 3rd I used 30 lbs.

 Also I forgot....I haven't been documenting the weight I've been doing . I meant to pick up a sheet and fill it out the first day, but forgot...Oh well guess I try to remember saturday.

 I remembered what I did today, here it is... I did warmup sets before each of these except for Dips, didn't think there was much point for dips.

   Chest/Shoulders 11-18-04



   Dips

   1st set, did 9 reps no assistance

   2nd set, did 10 reps, 20lbs assistance

   3rd set, did 10 reps, 30 lbs assistance



   Military Press (lower weight next week to round out the sets

   1st set did 7 reps at 65 lbs

   2nd set did 6 reps at 55 lbs

   3rd set did 7 reps at 45 lbs (added this set to get 20 total)



   Upright Rows

   1st set 10 reps at 55lbs

   2nd set 10 reps at 45 lbs



   Close Grip Bench Press

   1st set did 10 reps at 65lbs

   2nd set did 10 reps at 75 lbs



   Dumbbell Bench press

   1st set did 10 reps with 30 lbs DBs

   2nd set did 10 reps with 25 lbs DBs

   3rd set did 10 reps with 25 lbs DBs


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## KarlW (Nov 18, 2004)

> Originally Posted by *Seanp156*
> 
> _Also I forgot....I haven't been documenting the weight I've been doing _



 

Looks good, did you do DB bench first or last?


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## BaNaNaS (Nov 18, 2004)

Okay I'll just stick with this for now and wait for what you have comming, because before i was trying to just do a muscle group a day. but i had no structure. This is way more organized and i can see my self progress better by writing down my reps and weight for each set. I know this was not for me karl but i thank you for doing this you too randy .


  edit: Oh did you want us to decrease weight on each set? Or increase? ex 25 - 30 - 35, or 35 - 30 - 25.


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## KarlW (Nov 18, 2004)

Here's a rountine incorporating arms, pretty basic.

Workout #1 Quads/Traps	
Squats	                         3x8-10
Leg press	                         3x8-10
Barbell lunges	            1x10-12
Hang cleans	            3x8-10
Smith machine shrugs	2x8-10

Workout #2 Chest/Calves/Bis	
flat bench	3x8-10
Dips	             3x8-10
Incline bench	2x8-10
Machine calf raise	4x8-10
Barbell curls	3x8-10
Hammer curls	2x8-10

Workout #3 Hams/Shoulders	
Stiff deadlifts	3x8-10
leg curls	             2x8-10
Seated DB press	3x8-10
Upright row	2x8-10
Lateral raises	1x8-10

Workout #4 Back/Tris	
Chins	            3x8-10
Deadlifts	            3x8-10
DB row	            2x8-10
CG bench	            3x8-10
Skull crushers	2x8-10

My advice to Sean though is don't bother with this for 4-6 weeks or so, stick to the more basic routine.


----------



## BaNaNaS (Nov 18, 2004)

Thanks karl, i'm going to do the current 3 day split. Then in two weeks switch to this. Or would it be best just to do this right away?


----------



## KarlW (Nov 18, 2004)

> Originally Posted by *BaNaNaS*
> 
> Oh did you want us to decrease weight on each set? Or increase? ex 25 - 30 - 35, or 35 - 30 - 25.



It's about staying in the rep range, and getting failure (or almost) in that rep range. So the weight may go up OR down depending on how you go in each set.

Rule 1. Warm up adequately: this is almost like pyramiding up the weight except that you DO NOT go near failure. 

Rule 2. 1st working set dependent on what you did last time (or a good guess if it's your first)

Rule 3. Subsequent sets dependent on previous set.

eg Say you're doing deadlifts. Last week you did 200 x 9, 200 x 7, 200 x 5

ie you didn't adjust the weights so you dropped out of the rep range (8-10) on the 2nd and 3rd set. So this week you'd have your warm up sets - maybe 45 x 10, 95 x 8, 135 x 5, 175 x 3. Then your 1st working set would be 200 and say you get 10 so you go for 200 again and you get 7, now you know you have to peel off some weight (maybe down to 175) and you get 8. Next week you can start 1st working set on maybe 205 or 210.


----------



## KarlW (Nov 18, 2004)

> Originally Posted by *BaNaNaS*
> 
> _Thanks karl, i'm going to do the current 3 day split. Then in two weeks switch to this. Or would it be best just to do this right away?_



I'd stay on the first one (maybe for 3-4 weeks) then rest 3-4 days before going onto the 2nd one.


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## BaNaNaS (Nov 18, 2004)

Sounds good!


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## CowPimp (Nov 19, 2004)

KarlW said:
			
		

> Upright rows, if done correctly DO take some getting use to AND are not supposed to be done with massive amounts of weight. What you say is good, means you're taking it nice and slow. When you achieve the upper limit of the rep range for a set (like 10 in the case of 3 x 8-10) before failure then you need to increase the weight. By how much? only you will know through experience.



I like to take my upright rows pretty heavy and do them fairly rhythmically.  To each his own.


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## Randy (Nov 19, 2004)

KarlW said:
			
		

> Yeah, I started my post before I read yours and took a phone call in the middle of it. LOL


That's ok, it happens


----------



## KarlW (Nov 19, 2004)

Cowpimp what do you mean by rythmically? Do you mean quick?


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## Mudge (Nov 19, 2004)

That can be quick or slow or in the middle, it means with a pattern that is continual and unchanging.

I do higher reps for shrugs, 12-15 reps, once in awhile I might hit 20.


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## Randy (Nov 19, 2004)

He means with Rhythm 

I do the same thing with my shrugs.  I rotate in a smooth rotation at a specific rhythm.


----------



## Randy (Nov 19, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> That can be quick or slow or in the middle, it means with a pattern that is continual and unchanging.
> 
> I do higher reps for shrugs, 12-15 reps, once in awhile I might hit 20.


Just like a music ....rhythm can come in all forms.


----------



## Mudge (Nov 19, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> I do the same thing with my shrugs.  I rotate in a smooth rotation at a specific rhythm.



Rotate? You should not be rotating anything, unless you want to blow out your rotators. Up and down, just like you do at night.


----------



## Randy (Nov 20, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Rotate? You should not be rotating anything, unless you want to blow out your rotators. Up and down, just like you do at night.


Why do some bodybuilders recommend and illustrate in their exercise books to do shrugs in a circular motion?

Could it just be dangerous if you have problems with your rotator cuffs?
I've never had problems with mine.  Or are your rotators that sensative where you should still avoid them despite not ever having problems with them?


----------



## P-funk (Nov 20, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> Why do some bodybuilders recommend and illustrate in their exercise books to do shrugs in a circular motion?
> 
> Could it just be dangerous if you have problems with your rotator cuffs?
> I've never had problems with mine.  Or are your rotators that sensative where you should still avoid them despite not ever having problems with them?





Well, the traps (specifically trap 1 and 2 which we work when doing shrugs) work to elevate the scapula, not rotate the shoulder joint.  So, if you are trying to work your traps then shrug up. The thing about rotating with that much weight (the load is typically heavy when people do shrugs) is that you are rotating back , external rotation of the shoulder.  the external rotators (teres minor, infraspinatus, posterior delt) are small muscles and can't handle that much load.  Overloading these muscles can lead to a tear.  

There could be two reason that most bodybuilders advocate a cirucalr motion for shrugs.  One (and probably my guess) is that they have very little knowledge of biomechanics and don't know what the hell they are talking about.  Or two, when going through external shoulder rotation your shoulder girdle will abduct and slightly rotate inwards, which will recruit some of the lower traps (trap 3 and 4).  But, there are better ways to hit the fibers of the lower traps that are much safer.  Exercises that you already do like low rows or pull ups/downs (which internally rotate the scapula) are good enough.


----------



## Mudge (Nov 20, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> Why do some bodybuilders recommend and illustrate in their exercise books to do shrugs in a circular motion?



Wait a second, are you proposing that all of them actually know what they are talking about?

There is no prerequisite in bodybuilding that says lifting heavy weights, eating a lot of food, and doing drugs requires you to actually know the safest way of doing things.

Come on man, Ronnie Coleman believes he was 3 tenths of a percent bodyfat giving him less than one pound of bodyfat over his whole body.


----------



## Randy (Nov 20, 2004)

...



			
				Mudge said:
			
		

> Wait a second, are you proposing that all of them actually know what they are talking about?
> 
> *Of course not, that is why I am asking?*
> 
> ...


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## Randy (Nov 20, 2004)

Hey Mudge, what do you think of this?    Sounds pretty interesting.

*S.J. streets may roar with racing sounds*






*PROPOSED GRAND PRIX-STYLE EVENT HAILED AS BOON FOR BUSINESS, CITY PROFILE*




*[size=-1]By Rodney Foo[/size]*




*[size=-1]Mercury News[/size]*





San Jose officials said Friday they have reached a tentative agreement to stage a grand prix car race in the streets surrounding HP Pavilion in July.

The five-year deal with the race promoter -- the Woodside-based Canary Fund, a non-profit corporation dedicated to early cancer detection -- is being applauded by city officials who say the Champ Car World Series event could generate millions of dollars for businesses and the city treasury while raising San Jose's profile.

``It gets our name and our identity out literally across the world, so from that perspective, you can't buy better PR,'' said Councilwoman Cindy Chavez, whose district includes downtown.

The race is contingent on the city council approving $650,000 to help shoulder the $3 million needed to prepare the course and pay for public safety services during the race, which could attract 120,000 people downtown. The promoter will be responsible for funding the remaining $2.35 million.

The event, similar to the Grand Prix of Long Beach, features open-wheel cars that reach speeds above 150 mph as they race around a 1.5-mile course along West Santa Clara Street through the HP Pavilion parking lot and in the streets behind the arena.

The proposal is scheduled for the council's Dec. 7 agenda, said Mayor Ron Gonzales' budget and policy director, Joe Guerra.

``We're optimistic about getting this thing going,'' said Canary Fund President Dale Jantzen.

The $650,000 investment request comes just weeks after city officials announced San Jose was facing a $60 million budget shortage next year. However, Guerra said the money being proposed would come from funds that don't finance city services.

The proposal calls for tapping $250,000 from a redevelopment agency business grant fund and $400,000 from a city Office of Economic Development fund dedicated for small business loans, Guerra said. The plan calls for the city to be repaid with race revenues.

The agreement to hold races with the Canary Fund -- founded by former Cisco senior executive Don Listwin -- would end after five years with an opportunity to renew for another five years, said David Vossbrink, the mayor's spokesman.

The agreement, reached Friday morning, ends six months of negotiations between the Canary Fund and city officials, who say the July 29-31 event could nourish cash-strapped downtown businesses and pour $10 million to $20 million in local sales-tax revenue into the treasury.

``Revenues generated by the event will bring real economic benefit to our community and local businesses,'' Gonzales said in a news release.

But others, such as the Silicon Valley Taxpayers Association, aren't sold on the race being financed with public money.

``There is a more critical need for the money and higher priorities,'' association president Dennis Umphress said. ``I think it's inappropriate for the city to be in the racing business.''

Association board member George Swenson said he didn't trust the city's revenue projection.

``I would believe their estimates are overly optimistic,'' he said.

But in Long Beach, a three-day race event this year added $40 million to the local economy and drew more than 175,000 spectators, according to race officials.

In Denver, the race brought in $17 million and 112,000 visitors, said Tim Litherland, sports and special markets director for the Denver Metro Convention and Visitors Bureau.

``It's like having a small convention come to town,'' said Kevin Magner, who oversees special projects for Denver's public works department and worked on negotiations to bring a Champ Car event into the city.

The Champ Car World Series, formerly known as Championship Auto Racing Teams (CART), had been the dominant ``open wheel'' racing series in the United States for years, featuring drivers such as Mario Andretti and Al Unser. The schedule was highlighted by the Indianapolis 500.

But in 1994, Indianapolis Motor Speedway owner Tony George began a competing series, the Indy Racing League (IRL), and took the Indy 500 with him. Top drivers eventually followed, crippling CART, which declared bankruptcy last year.

A new ownership group, which included former Silicon Valley CEO Kevin Kalkhoven, took over and changed the series' name to Champ Car.

Of the $3 million initially needed for the course, $2.8 million will be used to prepare streets and the arena's parking lot for the race. The remaining $200,000 is needed for police, fire, paramedic and dispatch services.

Because of the racing cars' low ground clearance, the crowned streets must be repaved with a special asphalt and made smooth so that the road is virtually level. The asphalt takes three months to cure so it must be poured by late April.

The San Jose Sports Authority and the city's Office of Economic Development have been scouring Silicon Valley's corporate world for sponsors to help pay the costs. Knight Ridder -- the Mercury News' parent company -- has pledged $100,000 for the race's first year, but only if it is staged downtown.

The promoter will have to pay for concrete dividers, fencing, hospitality suites and bleachers -- a tab that costs millions more, said Paul Krutko, director of the Office of Economic Development.


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## Seanp156 (Nov 23, 2004)

Anyway....Here's todays...

Legs Tuesday 11-23-04



 Squats

 1st set, did 10 reps at 85 lbs

 2nd set, did 10 reps at 85 lbs

 3rd set, did 10 reps at 95 lbs



 Leg Press

 1st set, 10 reps at 85 lbs

 2nd set, 10 reps at 100 lbs

 3rd set, 10 reps at 115 lbs



 SL Deadlifts (barbell)

 1st set, 10 reps at 85 lbs

 2nd set, 10 reps at 85 lbs

 3rd set, 8 reps at 95 lbs







 Calf Raises

 1st set, 10 reps at 115 lbs

 2nd set, 10 reps at 130 lbs

 3rd set, 10 reps at 150 lbs

 
 Leg Curls

 1st set, 10 reps at 80 lbs

 

After all this, ran 1 mile



 Definately doing more on this week than last on leg press and calf raises, wasn't really sure how far I could go the first week, I could still probably go more on those next week too so I'll aim for a bit more.


 One of my friends at school is unbelievable, he can do a total of 26 45lbs discs on calf raises. That's around .5 tons ! Makes me feel so far behind.


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## Mudge (Nov 23, 2004)

Something to keep in mind, if you are hitting 10 reps on each and every single set, are you really trying that hard? I would expect to see some 8s or 9s in there from time to time. I see you hit 8 on one of the SLDL sets.

Not trying to get you injured here, just something to think about. I try to keep it in mind because self torture is easily forgotten.


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## KarlW (Nov 23, 2004)

Sean, Mudge is right, although you are still early in the program and still probably get a feel for the exercises and weights, but like he said......something to start thinking about.

You'll know when your'e starting to lift heavy when you get less reps at the same weight on 2nd and 3rd sets.

eg: You did:

Squats

1st set, did 10 reps at 85 lbs
2nd set, did 10 reps at 85 lbs
3rd set, did 10 reps at 95 lbs

Soon, you'll probably find it's more like this:

Squats

1st set, did 10 reps at 125 lbs
2nd set, did 8 reps at 125 lbs
3rd set, did 9 reps at 115 lbs

................if you know what I'm getting at.

Still, looks like you're progressing and getting the idea. WELL DONE


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## KarlW (Nov 23, 2004)

..........mmmmmmmmmmmm your friends not one of those folk who pack 16 plates on the leg press and do reps that hardly even bend their legs is he?
The same type who try to do squats and again hardly go 1/3 way down?

.......just asking. I mean 26 x 45 is impressive no doubt.


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## CowPimp (Nov 23, 2004)

I actually think that leg routine looks pretty good.  Nice compound movements with a reasonable amount of volume.  I think squats and SLDLs are my two favorite leg exercises.


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## Seanp156 (Nov 24, 2004)

Yeah, I'm feeling sore today, but not as much as last week. Last week the day after killed when I walked, but now it's just a little sore, not really hard to deal with. I don't know if that's good or bad or what...


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## KarlW (Nov 24, 2004)

It's OK. Keep lifting, making sure you go heavier each week IF you hit the target rep range the week before. You *will * get less and less sore as the weeks go by, which is why after 4-6 weeks you would change things up. We'll worry about that when you get there.


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## Seanp156 (Nov 24, 2004)

Ughh, tomarrow's Thanksgiving...thursday's my normal day for the chest workout...I'm going to a lodge, and I'm not sure but I think they might have a little weight room there. I remember there was last time our family went there, but I don't remember what equipment they had. I guess if they don't have the right stuff there I'll just do it friday and the back workout on saturday (as normal)...Or maybe bump the back workout to sunday if need be, but I shouldn't need to if their different muscle groups...


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## Randy (Nov 24, 2004)

Blowing a little creatine powder at the Cow  whifffff  *+*+*+*+*+**+*+**+*++**+*+*+*


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## KarlW (Nov 24, 2004)

In the news in Australia they said that thanksgiving was snowed out.


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## Randy (Nov 24, 2004)

Poor Kangaroos


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## KarlW (Nov 25, 2004)




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## Seanp156 (Nov 30, 2004)

Ok, here's what I've been doing

 Friday 11-26-04
 Chest/Shoulders

 DB Bench Press: 
 1st set - 30 lbs DBs, 10 reps
 2nd set - 30 lbs DBs, 10 reps
 3rd set - 35 lbs DBs, 8 reps

 Dips
 1st set - 10 reps 10lbs assist
 2nd set - 10 reps 20 lbs assist
 3rd set - 10 reps 30 lbs assist

 Military Press
 1st set - 55lbs 10 reps
 2nd set - 50lbs 10 reps
 3rd set - 50lbs 9 reps

 Upright Rows
 1st set - 55lbs 10 reps
 2nd set - 60 lbs 9 reps

 Close Grip Bench Press
 1st set 65lbs 10 reps
 2nd set 75lbs 10 reps

 Saturday 11-27-04
 Back

 Pull Ups 
 1st set - 6 reps 20 lbs assist
 2nd set - 6 reps 30 lbs assist
 3rd set - 6 reps 40 lbs assist

 Deadlift
 1st set - 65lbs 10 reps
 2nd set - 75 lbs 10 reps
 3rd set - 85 lbs 8 reps

 DB Row
 1st set - 35lbs DB's 10 reps
 2nd set - 35 lbs DB's 10 reps
 3rd set - 40 lbs DB's 8 reps

 DB Shrugs 
 1st set - 40lbs DB's 10 reps
 2nd set - 50lbs DB's 10 reps

 Barbell Curls
 1st set - 65lbs 10 reps
 2nd set - 60 lbs 7 reps

 Tuesday 11-30-04
 Legs

 Squats
 1st set - 105lbs 10 reps
 2nd set - 95lbs 10 reps
 3rd set - 95lbs 8 reps

 Leg Press
 1st set - 115lbs 10 reps
 2nd set - 130lbs 10 reps
 3rd set - 145lbs 10 reps

 Calf Raises
 1st set - 145lbs 10 reps
 2nd set - 160lbs 10 reps
 3rd set - 175lbs 10 reps

 SL Deadlifts 
 1st set - 85lbs 10 reps
 2nd set - 95lbs 8 reps
 3rd set - 85lbs 8 reps

 Leg Curls
 1st set - 100lbs 6 reps
 2nd set - 90lbs 4 reps (did very quickly after first set)



















 Yeah, about diet...What should I eat? I have pretty much no knowledge of cooking good, healthy food. Right now I don't really eat much, maybe a bowl of cereal or pop-tart in the morning, a pb-j and some baked chips for lunch, and fast food for dinner, yes I know my diet's horrible for the most part, so what can I do?


----------



## KarlW (Nov 30, 2004)

Sean, workouts looking good. Keep upping the weight (with good form of course!)

As for diet, start with the Nutrition section. Best learn it yourself.


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## CowPimp (Nov 30, 2004)

That workout looks great.  My only suggestion is that you do deadlifts before pullups.  Exercise selection is great, and volume looks pretty good.  I'm glad to see you don't do 12 sets for each of your arm muscles!


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## Randy (Nov 30, 2004)

I did 3 sets of 10 on the deads today....felt good. I'm going to stick with the small weight for my 6 week routine, then I will add after that. Whenever I introduce something new I don't focus on weight, I focus on proper form. Once I feel comfortable with form and get acclimated to the exercise then I will increase weight and move towards a mass routine to build strength. 

Actually I forgot today I was supposed to switch to RR (Rep Range).. Oh well, I'll add that one in tomorrow. Actually I don't really know if I should do RR for my benching.


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## KarlW (Nov 30, 2004)

You can do deads b4 pullups as CP suggests. I only do pullups 1st cause I find em friggin hard and can get more out if I do em first so it makes me feel better. After deadlifts I'm pretty 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Prob not the best way of thinking.


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## Randy (Dec 1, 2004)

I do the same thing Karl... I try to target the hardest exercises first.
As for deads,  I don't know if it is because I they are new to me or not, but after doing 10 sets I can feel my heart going pretty good.  It seems like an exercise that gets the blood flowing much more so then other exercises.


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## Seanp156 (Dec 1, 2004)

I was so tired yesterday after my workout, I fell asleep at like 6:45 while I was studying for a test, then I woke up studied for about 10 more minutes then relaxed and went to bed at 9:30. That's the earliest I've gone to be since as long as I can remember. My body's used to about 6 hours of sleep, so I woke up at like 3 in the morning for no reason, but I fell right back asleep...Kind of random. Hehe

 On a side note, I'm kind of thinking I'd like some exercises for my abs + obliques. I've been doing crunches, sit-ups + v-ups for a while but don't really see much improvement.


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## Randy (Dec 1, 2004)

Seanp,

Coming from those who have maintained 6 pack abs, the key is cardio and lean diet.
The crunches, situps, and other exercises will build the muscle underlying the fat.  But to expose the muscle, you must burn off the fat.   Since I am not lean myself I can't speak first hand, but I believe that will set you on the right track.


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## KarlW (Dec 2, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> I do the same thing Karl... I try to target the hardest exercises first.
> As for deads, I don't know if it is because I they are new to me or not, but after doing 10 sets I can feel my heart going pretty good. It seems like an exercise that gets the blood flowing much more so then other exercises.


Rand, what do you mean by 10 sets? do you mean reps?
Yes deads, followed by squats, followed by BOW's are the 3 that exercises where after a set your body turns to you and says "Wot the hell are U tryin' ta doota me?????". The reason?...

1. Weight used compared to other exercises.
2. The recruitment of more muscle mass / joint involvment compared to other exercises. Well that's my theory anyway.


----------



## KarlW (Dec 2, 2004)

Sean, you can throw abs in once or twice a week for good measure.

Thing is, as Rand says, until you get BF% down you won't see em.
Good to train the midsection for strength and stability anyways but it's debatable whether you get all you need from the other exercises (deads/squats etc)


----------



## Seanp156 (Dec 2, 2004)

Guess I need to change my diet, although that may be very difficult...

 Thursday 12-2-04
 Chest/Shoulders

 DB Bencher press
 1st set 40 lbs DBs 8 reps
 2nd set 35 lbs DBs 8 reps
 3rd set 30 lbs DBs 10 reps

 Dips
 1st set - 20 lbs assist 8 reps
 2nd set - 30 lbs assist 10 reps
 3rd set - 40 lbs assist 8 reps

 Military Press (bit of trouble here)
 1st set - 65lbs 10 reps
 2nd set - 65lbs 5 reps
 3rd set - 60 lbs 5 reps

 Upright Rows
 1st set 65lbs 8 reps
 2nd set 60 lbs 8 reps

 Close Grip bench press (felt good today like I could've done more weight the first set)
 1st set 75lbs 10 reps
 2nd set 95lbs 7 reps


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## Randy (Dec 2, 2004)

Whoops....Yes, I meant 10 reps .  I am doing 3 sets of 10 reps.



			
				KarlW said:
			
		

> Rand, what do you mean by 10 sets? do you mean reps?
> 
> Yes deads, followed by squats, followed by BOW's are the 3 that exercises where after a set your body turns to you and says "Wot the hell are U tryin' ta doota me?????". The reason?...
> 
> ...


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## KarlW (Dec 4, 2004)

wow my CG bench went way up today from 3 weeks ago (doing P/RR/S). For my first set I started with the same weight I did 3 weeks ago + 10 lbs ready to do 4-6 reps. Well I got to 4 and wasn't even trying, so I put on another 10lbs, did 4 reps which seems too easy, so I put on another 10lbs and that was about right (near failure on rep 6). I'm thinking WTF? checked the weights again and thought........... COOL!!!!.


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## Seanp156 (Dec 5, 2004)

Here's what I did saturday:

 12/4/04
 Back

 Pullups
 1st set - 0 lbs assist 6 reps
 2nd set - 20 lbs assist 6 reps
 3rd set - 30 lbs assist 6 reps

 Deadlift
 1st set - 85lbs 10 reps
 2nd set - 95lbs 10 reps
 3rd set - 85 lbs 8 reps

 DB Row 
 1st set - 40lbs 10 reps
 2nd set 45 lbs 8 reps

 DB Shrugs
 1st set - 45 lbs 10 reps
 2nd set - 55lbs 10 reps

 Barbell Curls (too much weight on first set maybe?)
 1st set - 70lbs 5 reps
 2nd set - 60 lbs 5 reps


 Anyway, I got a bunch of healthy food at the grocery so hopefully I'm on track to getting my diet right as well.


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## Randy (Dec 6, 2004)

I will need to borrow some of those healthy foods Sean.
My ass is burning from that damn mexican food I ate last night.
Damn, I'm not eating at that place anymore. 
I need some detox food to bring me back to normal.  I think I will eat broccoli tonight for dinner


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## Seanp156 (Dec 8, 2004)

I'm kind of getting the feeling it's time to up the intensity of my workout. Some of my friend start at about maybe 50-60% of what they figure to be their max and then keep adding 10 lbs each set until they reach 100% each set they just try to do as many as they can until failure. After that, they go all the way back down 10lbs at a time. I think this is probably overkill, but I don't know. 

 I guess I should probably keep with this routine for the 3 or so more weeks and then discuss changes?


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## Randy (Dec 8, 2004)

I found I can't lift as Much doing that method Sean.   Myself I warmup well at the 135 mark then I jump to 180 and do like 5 sets,  then jump to 220, then 250, then 270, then 300.   If I worked my way up to my 100 percent zone at 10 pounds each set I would be tired and out of power by the time I hit 100 percent.  That is why I cut my reps down to 5 too, so I can conserve strength.   Once I hit 300 then I will usually drop down to like 180 and lift to failure.


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## Seanp156 (Dec 18, 2004)

As you may have seen in my other post I'm getting my wisdom teeth out soon, so I'll probably be taking a week off from lifting. In the mean time could someone (maybe KarlW) help me change up my routine? 3 Day split works out very nice for me time wise.

 Also you may have noticed I stopped updating my workouts. I have written them down, I just haven't posted them here. Last night I typed them up and I have a full journal here: http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?p=863120#post863120

 But yeah, if someone could come up with a semi new routine with different exercises than my current one, and maybe separate chest/shoulders into different days, I would be very appreciative. maybe mix shoulders with leg day or something I don't know, is that a bad idea?


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## KarlW (Dec 19, 2004)

Thing is Sean, on a 3 day split you have to put shoulders somewhere or not do them at all, maybe that's an option? If you don't want them with chest then another split would be:

Quads/Hamstrings/Shoulders
Chest/Triceps/Calves
Back/Biceps/Traps

Now a lot of people r gunna tell u don't do shoulders on leg day, but there you have it with a 3 day split. Otherwise you have to go to a 4 day split but I think a 3 day split is fine. How's sound?


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## Seanp156 (Dec 19, 2004)

I guess  that makes sense, but why move calfs to the chest day? Couldn't you just move shoulders to the normal leg day with all the leg exercises or is that too many muscle for the body to repair at once?

 Are there really any different leg exercises I can do on leg day or no?

 I know for chest I can change to barbell bench press, inclined bench, triceps I could do skull crushers, biceps preacher curls, standing or sitting dumbbell curls etc.

 What would be the most beneficial workouts for these muscle groups to change to for the next 6-8 weeks?


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## KarlW (Dec 20, 2004)

I guess that makes sense, but why move calfs to the chest day? Couldn't you just move shoulders to the normal leg day with all the leg exercises or is that too many muscle for the body to repair at once?

*mmmmm.......too many exercises to do in one session. Quads/Hamstrings/Shoulders is pushing it as it is. I mean you can if you want but it makes the workout too long IMO.
*
Are there really any different leg exercises I can do on leg day or no?

*Definately, though it can be argued whether you should do anything other than squats. Same goes for deadlifts. Well there's no harm in changing for a while.
*
I know for chest I can change to barbell bench press, inclined bench, triceps I could do skull crushers, biceps preacher curls, standing or sitting dumbbell curls etc.

*you got the idea!!!!!!!  *

What would be the most beneficial workouts for these muscle groups to change to for the next 6-8 weeks?

I got a better idea.......gimme a while.


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## KarlW (Dec 20, 2004)

Actually Sean I would only change a few things for the next 6 weeks since you'll be having a week off or so. We can vary the rep ranges and change a few exercises. Remember to take it easy (relatively speaking) for the first week back from time off.

*Day #1 Thighs/Shoulders*

Squats - 3 x 6-8
Hack Squats - 2 x 10-12 (if you can't do these see what else your gym has got)
Shoulder Press - 3 x 6-8 (do them differently to before, i.e use a BB instead of DB's or vice versa)
Lateral Raises - 2 x 10-12
Seated Leg Curl - 2 x 6-8 (if you have this machine, if not then lying leg curl)
SLDL's - 1 x 10-12

*Day #3 Chest/Calves/Triceps*

Incline Bench in Smith machine - 3 x 6-8
Decline Bench w/ DB's - 2 x 10-12 (if you can do them, get used to them using light DB's at first!)
Calf Raises - 3 x 6-8
Skull Crushers - 2 x 6-8
Cable pushdowns - 1 x 10-12

With declines, form is important. On inclines, you bring the bar to your upper chest. With declines, you bring the bar or DB's to the bottom of your rib cage, otherwise you can blow your shoulders out. However, if done correctly they feel great. 

*Day #5 Back/Biceps/Traps*

Bent Over Rows 3 x 6-8 (One word here.....form. Learn how to do them. Start light at first. I find using the E-Z bar gives the best squeeze in the back and most comfortable grip).
WG Lat Pulls - 2 x 6-8
CG Cable Rows 2 x 10-12
DB curls - 2 x 6-8
Hang Cleans 2 x 8-10 (let me know if you're not sure about these)


Throw Abs in somewhere if you want.
See what you think and let me know.

Cheers


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## Seanp156 (Dec 20, 2004)

Cool, thanks KarlW  As for Hack squats my gym doesn't have a machine for it, but I could use the smith or just a barbell, which would you recommend? Also, I don't know what Hang Cleans are...

 Also, on Saturdays which is usually my back/biceps/traps day, I throw in abs as well as a bunch of cardio. Example: after my weight lifting session I did 40 declined situps with no weight, and 20 holding a 25lbs plate. After that, I did 15 minutes on the stairmaster, then when I got home I took my dog on a walk and run. 

 Is that too much extra to throw in on one day, or does it just basically depend how I feel?

 I'm thinking for cardio I might go on a 2 mile run on my non-workout day with my dog because she needs the exercise (she's a siberian husky) and it would be a good time for me to work cardio in. I'm just wondering if that would hinder me getting bigger, and make me much more lean instead, even if I am eating right.


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## KarlW (Dec 20, 2004)

> Cool, thanks KarlW  As for Hack squats my gym doesn't have a machine for it, but I could use the smith or just a barbell, which would you recommend? Also, I don't know what Hang Cleans are...


mmmmm Smith squats.....see the other thread and decide for yourself. Otherwise you could do Leg Presses one leg at a time, that'll test you out.

Hang Cleans.......http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/HangClean.html



> Also, on Saturdays which is usually my back/biceps/traps day, I throw in abs as well as a bunch of cardio. Example: after my weight lifting session I did 40 declined situps with no weight, and 20 holding a 25lbs plate. After that, I did 15 minutes on the stairmaster, then when I got home I took my dog on a walk and run.
> 
> Is that too much extra to throw in on one day, or does it just basically depend how I feel?


Basically it depends. However if your goal is purely to gain mass you'd be better doing cardio at different times, not right after a workout. I'm not 100% on this so others may help you out there.



> I'm thinking for cardio I might go on a 2 mile run on my non-workout day with my dog because she needs the exercise (she's a siberian husky) and it would be a good time for me to work cardio in. I'm just wondering if that would hinder me getting bigger, and make me much more lean instead, even if I am eating right.


No that sounds good. I would however, have 1 rest day a week of no weights or cardio whatsoever.

Hey I've got a Border Collie X Kelpie and she also requires HEAPS of exercise. She NEVER gets tired. See Avatar


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## Seanp156 (Dec 20, 2004)

KarlW said:
			
		

> mmmmm Smith squats.....see the other thread and decide for yourself. Otherwise you could do Leg Presses one leg at a time, that'll test you out.
> 
> Hang Cleans.......http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/HangClean.html
> 
> ...


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## KarlW (Dec 20, 2004)

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=19894Hang cleans take some practice. You dont have to go into a full squat unless you're going quite heavy. It's a lift that requires, and builds power. You must  pull the bar up high then get under it in one fluid movement. You'll only look retarded if you try to 'place' the bar on your shoulders rather than getting your body under it. Have you seen the olympic weightlifters doing cleans? Have you seen their traps and thighs?


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## Seanp156 (Dec 24, 2004)

I'm assuming by  WG Lat Pulls you mean wide grip lat pull downs? Where you just pull the bar down to your upper chest?


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## KarlW (Dec 24, 2004)

yup. Make sure you don't do what a lot of people (newbies) do and incorporate the triceps at the bottom of the rep by turning the pull into a push as they take the bar down further in front of them. As you say, the bar is pulled to your upper chest with your back squeezed.


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## Seanp156 (Dec 29, 2004)

Ok, well I started day 1 of the new split yesterday and today my legs and shoulders feel pretty sore, but they don't kill. 

 One thing however is my left knee aches whenever I'm standing and/or walking, but my right one's fine. On squats I just went to parallel so I don't think that's the problem but I don't know...

 Should I just see how it feel by the next time I do legs. Is it normal for your knee to ache? It does feel like a joint and not a muscle. I don't want to invite any type of knee injury...


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## KarlW (Dec 29, 2004)

What did you do after squats?

No your knee shouldn't ache. Did this happen before? Maybe it's because you no longer have wisdom teeth LOL..............btw how'd the op go?


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## Seanp156 (Dec 29, 2004)

Haven't gotten them out yet... Parents are a little slow on calling in on that....

 Anyway, I did the routine in the order you posted, so I did Hack Squats after normal squats, then shoulder press, then lat raises, leg curls, then SLDL. Hack Squats are killer, can't do nearly the weight I can on normal squats.

      I also threw in 40 reps declined situps, and 20 reps decline situps holding 25lbs.

 I'm not currently taking any type of fat or fish oils, could that possibly be a problem with my knee? I might need to get some at GNC if that's the case.

 My diet's mostly lean steak, grilled check, eggs, vegetables, fruit, peanut butter usually on bagel or bread, and whole grain wheat bread(bagels and toast). I have 4 total serving of whey protein in 2% milk on non-workout days and 6 on workout days.


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## KarlW (Dec 29, 2004)

Haven't gotten them out yet... Parents are a little slow on calling in on that....



> Anyway, I did the routine in the order you posted, so I did Hack Squats after normal squats, then shoulder press, then lat raises, leg curls, then SLDL. Hack Squats are killer, can't do nearly the weight I can on normal squats.


*oh i thought you said your gym didn't have a machine. yeah there's a fair bit if weight in the machine itself.
*


> I'm not currently taking any type of fat or fish oils, could that possibly be a problem with my knee? I might need to get some at GNC if that's the case.


*doubt it but i'm no expert there.
*


> I have 4 total serving of whey protein in 2% milk on non-workout days and 6 on workout days.


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## Seanp156 (Dec 29, 2004)

*oh i thought you said your gym didn't have a machine. yeah there's a fair bit if weight in the machine itself.
*
    It doesn't, you can do them with a barbell....Just hold it like a deadlift behind your back and go down like a squat.
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/GluteusMaximus/BBHackSquat.html


 As for the whey it's not that much. It says one scoop for 8 oz, so I use 16 oz of milk and put 2 scoops in and that's 2 servings right there. I do that 2 times a day on non-workout days and 3 on workout days... So that's 40g of protein each time.


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## KarlW (Dec 29, 2004)

oh OK I've never done them that way but I have heard of them yeah. Not sure if that's good for the shoulders???? anyone done these and can help Sean out here?

As for the whey........OK that makes sense.


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## Seanp156 (Dec 30, 2004)

Yeah, my knees definately still hurting today, I'm getting kind of concerned... I don't remember doing anything specific to it while I was in the gym but it has to have been something I did there...


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## KarlW (Dec 30, 2004)

Not necessarily, could have been sumthin else you did out of the gym.

It's always weird when you don't know what you did to cause these things. I've had that before. Maybe you strained a ligament or sumthin, sumtimes it's not obvious at the time and the soreness comes along later. I wouldn't worry too much, just rest it for a while and don't do anything that brings more pain.


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## Seanp156 (Dec 31, 2004)

Here's what I did this week so far

   Tuesday

   12/28/04

   Thighs and Shoulders



   Squats

   1st set ??? 115lbs 8 reps

   2nd set ??? 125lbs 8 reps

   3rd set ??? 135lbs 6 reps



   Hack Squats (barbell)

   1st set ??? 65lbs 10 reps

   2nd set ??? 60 lbs 10 reps



   Shoulder Press (Dumbbells)

   1st set ??? 30lbs 8 reps

   2nd set ??? 35lbs 6 reps

   3rd set ??? 30 lbs 6 reps



   Lateral Raises

   1st set ??? 15lbs 10 reps

   2nd set ??? 10 lbs 10 reps



   Seated Leg Curl

   1st set ??? 100lbs 8 reps

   2nd set ??? 110lbs 6 reps



   SLDL

   1st set ??? 135lbs 8 reps



   Thursday

   12/30/04

   Chest/Calves/Triceps



   Inclined Bench in Smith (I just listed the weight added, don???t know if the machine itself counts)

   1st set ??? 50lbs 8 reps

   2nd set ??? 70lbs 6 reps

   3rd set ??? 60lbs 8 reps





   Declined Bench (Dumbbells)

   1st set ??? 30lbs 12 reps

   2nd set ??? 30 lbs 12 reps



   Calf Raises

   1st set ??? 190lbs 8 reps

   2nd set ??? 205lbs 8 reps

   3rd set ??? 220lbs 8 reps



   Skull Crushers

   1st set ??? 45lbs 8 reps

   2nd set ??? 40lbs 8 reps



   Cable Pushdowns

   1st set - 110lbs 10 reps



   Vertical Leg Hip Raises

   1st set ??? 15 reps

   2nd set ??? 10 reps

   3rd set ??? 10 reps



 On the skull crushers, I don't know if I'm doing the form right. Should the bar come down past the top of your head at the bottom of the movement, or should it be eye level or what? I felt like I was rotating too much in the shoulders instead of elbows.


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## Seanp156 (Jan 2, 2005)

Wow Hang Cleans weren't nearly as hard to get right as I thought they would be, of course I did start put light but I always do with unfamiliar things, I actually kind of liked them even...

   Also, some hot girl got on the elliptical next to me and smiled at me when I was done .

 One thing however, For the Lat pulls and CG cable Rows I used the universal pulley machine that's in our gym (the one with various grips), but it only goes up to 200lbs. For Lat pulls I need more than 200 unless I do like 20-24 reps which isn't a good thing. And the gym doesn't have any of the small 2.5-5lbs rubber weight to throw on.

   A while ago I saw some guy stick a 45 lbs barbell plate on it vertically, but I don't really know how...Any ideas?


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## Seanp156 (Jan 4, 2005)

Another update...

   Sunday

   1/2/05

   Back/Biceps/Traps



   Bent Over Rows

   1st set ??? 65lbs 8 reps

   2nd set ??? 85lbs 8 reps

   3rd set ??? 95lbs 8 reps



   WG Lat Pull Downs

   1st set ??? 200lbs 8 reps

   2nd set ??? 200lbs 8 reps (need more damn weight???)



   Close Grip Cable Rows

   1st set ??? 110lbs 12 reps

   2nd set ??? 160 lbs 12 reps



   Dumbbell Curls

   1st set ??? 35lbs 7 reps

   2nd set ??? 30lbs 10 reps



   Hang Cleans

   1st set ??? 65lbs 8 reps

   2nd set ??? 75lbs 8 reps



   Tuesday (workout out at friends house instead of gym)

   1/4/05

   Thighs and Shoulders



   Squats (a machine, not a smith or barbell)

   1st set ??? 110lbs 8 reps

   2nd set ??? 130lbs 8 reps

   3rd set ??? 150lbs 12 reps

   4th set ??? 160 lbs 20 reps

   5th set- 180lbs 16 reps

   6th set ??? 200lbs 8 reps



   Hack Squat ??? 

   1st set - 65lbs 12 reps

   2nd set ??? 85lbs 10 reps



   Shoulder Press (Dumbbells)

   1st set ??? 30 lbs 8 reps

   2nd set ??? 35lbs 8 reps

   3rd set ??? 40lbs 6 reps



   Lat Raises

   1st set ??? 15lbs 12 reps

   2nd set ??? 10 lbs 12 reps

   3rd set ??? 15lbs 10 reps



   SLDL

   1st set ??? 135lbs 8 reps

   2nd set ??? 135lbs 6 reps



   Leg Curls (lying on stomach)

   1st set ??? 50lbs 16 reps

   2nd set ??? 75lbs 10 reps



   Leg Extensions

   1st set ??? 75lbs 16 reps

   2nd set ??? 100lbs 14 reps


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