# How critical is it to add dextrose to a PWO shake?



## bigsahm21 (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm bulking, and currently I use skim milk, whey, oats, and a banana.  I don't use dextrose.  Is this detrimental to my recovery?


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## BigDyl (Mar 19, 2006)

It depends on if you want to live or die.  Easy choice if you ask me.


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## CowPimp (Mar 19, 2006)

It isn't absolutely necessary to induce an insulin spike after a workout, no.  I used to eat only oats and whey after a workout.  Now I do the insulin spike thing; I do think it made a little difference, but that amount is hard to quantify.  Overall caloric intake is far more important I think.


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## Tha Don (Mar 19, 2006)

bigsahm21 said:
			
		

> Is this detrimental to my recovery?


if compared to a shake of whey, dextrose and maltodextrin?.. possibly


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## Jodi (Mar 20, 2006)

No your recovery will have no effect.  IMO you are better off without the huge insulin spike.


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## Emma-Leigh (Mar 20, 2006)

bigsahm21 said:
			
		

> I'm bulking, and currently I use skim milk, whey, oats, and a banana.  I don't use dextrose.  Is this detrimental to my recovery?


Personally, I am partial to a partial insulin surge.  

I like a mix of carb sources PWO - things like high glucose fruits, skim dairy (specifically milk), dextrose and maybe some faster digesting starch (eg: quick oats etc).

So your current meal looks pretty good (as long as the oats are quick oats?)  
but if you are wanting to try dex then give it a go. 

Something like:
skim milk
banana
dex
whey

Could be something that would work.


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## bigsahm21 (Mar 20, 2006)

Thanks for the feedback...


...and yeah, they're quick oats


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## furion joe (Mar 20, 2006)

*For myself...*

I notice a difference (in terms of recovery) when using simple sugar(s) PWO compared to a food source(s) such as oatmeal.  I save that kind of source for the PPWO meal.  

Been using maltodextrin for awhile with good results, but I just purchased dextrose (to mix in with whey), I hear good things about this combo.  

The insulin 'spike' approach works for me; I want to replenish nutrients as quickly as possible so that I can make the most of my efforts in the gym...

Experiment and find/do what works best for you.


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## CowPimp (Mar 20, 2006)

furion joe said:
			
		

> Experiment and find/do what works best for you.



That would make sense; we can't have that.


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## furion joe (Mar 21, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> That would make sense; we can't have that.



lol, yeah, I hear ya!


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## shm353 (Mar 21, 2006)

So how much dextrose is required to be effective? I know this is subject to debate


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## Emma-Leigh (Mar 21, 2006)

shm353 said:
			
		

> So how much dextrose is required to be effective? I know this is subject to debate


This can't be given to a specific amount. Depends on your weight, your goals, your total diet, what else you were eating etc etc...


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## furion joe (Mar 21, 2006)

shm353 said:
			
		

> So how much dextrose is required to be effective? I know this is subject to debate



Depends on your requirements...

Emma-Leigh gave a good calculation of carbs and protein in terms of LBM (lean body mass) here:

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=50255&highlight=glycogen+stores



			
				Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> Generally, post-weight training I use:
> 0.5g x lean mass in carbs
> 0.25-0.33g lean mass in protein
> 
> ...




The 2:1 ratio works well.  So for me, that's 185 lbm X .5 for carbs = 92.5 grams; and then 185 lbm x .25 for protein = 46 grams.  I consume approximately 90c/45p PWO shake with dextrose and whey protein.  

Tried the dextrose today and it's like powdered sugar.  Makes the shake pretty tasty. 

The whole idea for this practice, in regards to using a simple sugar (monosaccharide) that has a high GI just made sense to me.  Right now I am very interested in the recovery process, especially the initial phase of the recovery process.  I am starting to believe that the overall recovery process has an equal value to the training stimulus itself. 

The use of dextrose is debatable for sure and to each his/her own in regards to what works best.  As stated previously by CowPimp, and in agreement I must say, a totally sound nutritional practice (overall calories and the correct ratio of macronutrients) goes a long way in determining the success or failure of one's goals.  Nutritional support is key...

I've tried numerous approaches and I feel that the one I am now using is superior to what I have done in the past.  The idea of someone using a combination of fruits, oats, milk, or whatever else is fine and I hope that works for that particular individual.  But for myself, I want the absorption of nutrients to be quick, like BAM!, they're replaced and my muscles and total system can start to recuperate asap.  That's why I always like to say "experiment" - there is no magic bullet.  Well, on second thought, maybe there is, I just haven't seen it yet.


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## CowPimp (Mar 22, 2006)

Another ratio I've seen to use is .8 grams of carbohydrates per kilogram of bodyweight and .4 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight.  I believe this one is espoused by John Berardi, who is a big dog in the nutritional world.


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## Dale Mabry (Mar 22, 2006)

I hit up accelerade before and during workouts.  I'd rather have the insulin-related surge in energy during my workout than right after.  Then I just eat a normal meal 30 minutes after.


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## CowPimp (Mar 22, 2006)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> I hit up accelerade before and during workouts.  I'd rather have the insulin-related surge in energy during my workout than right after.  Then I just eat a normal meal 30 minutes after.



I think starting your PWO shake during your workout is also a really good idea as well, but it's still a good idea to take advantage of the enhanced protein synthesis and propensity for glycogen storage during that hour or so after a workout.


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## Dale Mabry (Mar 22, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> I think starting your PWO shake during your workout is also a really good idea as well, but it's still a good idea to take advantage of the enhanced protein synthesis and propensity for glycogen storage during that hour or so after a workout.




I agree, I just don't think dextrose or anything like it is necessary.  Although I loved Biotest Surge when it came out and it definitely helped, but that was for size as opposed to performance.

I remember doing a form of the anabolic diet where you were keto throughout the day, but hit up a high GI carb right before working out.  Talk about an insulin surge.


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## CowPimp (Mar 22, 2006)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> I agree, I just don't think dextrose or anything like it is necessary.  Although I loved Biotest Surge when it came out and it definitely helped, but that was for size as opposed to performance.



I don't think it is necessary either.  I have only been trying the insulin spike thang for the past few months.  I can gain muscle mass with or without the insulin spike, but it does appear that the insulin spike provided slightly favorable results.  They aren't groundbreaking, and I did just fine without it before, but significant nonetheless.




> I remember doing a form of the anabolic diet where you were keto throughout the day, but hit up a high GI carb right before working out.  Talk about an insulin surge.



Yeah, the anabolic diet does seem to make sense in that respect.  However, I have a serious problem with low carbohydrate diets in general.  One, I respond very poorly to low amounts of carbohydrates; I feel like shit without a reasonable amount of them.  Two, I don't think largely reducing an entire category of foods is ever a good idea.  There are all kinds of nutrients that are found largely in grain products that are probably only partially replaced with supplementation.


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## juggernaut (Mar 26, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> It depends on if you want to live or die.  Easy choice if you ask me.



dyl. explain yourself, girlie man.
I think what dyl means in his own muddled way is that all of your gains are short circuited if you dont use some form of simple sugar (ie, maltodetrin, vitargo, dex or white bread), especially in a bulk. Figure it this way, at least *(.4) x (your bodyweight)* should be in the form of simple sugar. Break out the calculator and you'll see that a banana doesnt cut it.


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