# Fuck Israel and Zionist ; Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet



## doctormomen (May 31, 2010)

Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet - Middle East - Al Jazeera English


 News  Middle East                                                         
                                                                             Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet                                                                                               
 
Al Jazeera's report on board the _Mavi Marmara_  before communications were cut
                                                                                                                                                            Israeli forces have attacked a flotilla of  aid-carrying ships aiming to break the country's siege on Gaza.
 At least 19 people were killed and dozens injured when troops  intercepted the convoy of ships dubbed the Freedom Flotilla early on  Monday, Israeli radio reported.
                                                                                                 The flotilla was attacked in international  waters, 65km off the Gaza coast.
 Avital Leibovich, an Israeli military spokeswoman, confirmed that the  attack took place in international waters, saying: "This happened in  waters outside of Israeli territory, but we have the right to defend  ourselves."
                                                               Footage from the flotilla's lead vessel, the _Mavi  Marmara_, showed armed Israeli soldiers boarding the ship and  helicopters flying overhead.
 Al Jazeera's Jamal Elshayyal, on board the _Mavi Marmara_,  said Israeli troops had used live ammunition during the operation.
    Live blogging        

​ Aftermath  of Israel's attack on Gaza flotilla        The Israeli military said four soldiers had been wounded and claimed  troops opened fire after "demonstrators onboard attacked the IDF Naval  personnel with live fire and light weaponry including knives and clubs".
 Free Gaza Movement, the organisers of the flotilla, however, said the  troops opened fire as soon as they stormed the convoy.
 Our correspondent said that a white surrender flag was raised from  the ship and there was no live fire coming from the passengers.
 Before losing communication with our correspondent, a voice in Hebrew  was clearly heard saying: "Everyone shut up".
*Israeli intervention*
 Earlier, the Israeli navy had contacted the captain of the _Mavi  Marmara_, asking him to identify himself and say where the ship was  headed.
 Shortly after, two Israeli naval vessels had flanked the flotilla on  either side, but at a distance.
    IN DEPTH        


 *Focus:  *On board the Freedom Flotilla *Focus:*  'The future of Palestine' *Focus:* Gaza's real humanitarian crisis Outrage over Israel attack Tensions  rise over Gaza aid fleet 'Fighting  to break Gaza siege' Aid  convoy sets off for Gaza *Programmes:*  Born in Gaza *Video:  *Israel's Gaza PR offensive *Video:*  Gazan's rare family reunion abroad *Video:*  Making the most of Gaza's woes        Organisers of the flotilla carrying 10,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid  then diverted their ships and slowed down to avoid a confrontation  during the night.
 They also issued all passengers life jackets and asked them to remain  below deck.
 Al Jazeera???s Ayman Mohyeldin, reporting from Jerusalem, said the  Israeli action was surprising.
 "All the images being shown from the activists on board those ships  show clearly that they were civilians and peaceful in nature, with  medical supplies on board. So it will surprise many in the international  community to learn what could have possibly led to this type of  confrontation," he said.
 Meanwhile, Israeli police have been put on a heightened state of  alert across the country to prevent any civil disturbances.
 Sheikh Raed  Salah,a leading member of the Islamic Movement who was on board the  ship, was reported to have been seriously injured. He was being treated  in Israel's Tal Hasharon hospital.
 In Um Al Faham, the stronghold of the Islamic movement in Israel and  the birth place of Salah, preparations for mass demonstrations were  under way.
*Protests*
 Condemnation has been quick to pour in after the Israeli action.
 Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, officially declared a  three-day state of mourning over Monday's deaths.
 Turkey, Spain, Greece, Denmark and Sweden have all summoned the  Israeli ambassador's in their respective countries to protest against  the deadly assault.



*Worldwide  outrage has followed the deadly Israeli attack of Gaza aid convoy [AFP]*    Thousands of Turkish protesters tried to storm the Israeli consulate  in Istanbul soon after the news of the operation broke. The protesters  shouted "Damn Israel" as police blocked them.
 "(The interception on the convoy) is unacceptable ... Israel will  have to endure the consequences of this behaviour," the Turkish foreign  ministry said in a statement.   
 Ismail Haniya, the Hamas leader in Gaza, has also dubbed the Israeli  action as "barbaric".
 Hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists, including a Nobel laureate and  several European legislators, were with the flotilla, aiming to reach  Gaza in defiance of an Israeli embargo.
 The convoy came from the UK, Ireland, Algeria, Kuwait, Greece and  Turkey, and was comprised of about 700 people from 50 nationalities.
 But Israel had said it would not allow the flotilla to reach the Gaza  Strip and vowed to stop the six ships from reaching the coastal  Palestinian territory.
 The flotilla had set sail from a port in Cyprus on Sunday and aimed  to reach Gaza by Monday morning.
 Israel said the boats were embarking on "an act of provocation"  against the Israeli military, rather than providing aid, and that it had  issued warrants to prohibit their entrance to Gaza.
 It asserted that the flotilla would be breaking international law by  landing in Gaza, a claim the organisers rejected.

​


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## DOMS (May 31, 2010)

Good for them!  Now maybe those asshats will realize that you don't go fucking around in a life or death situation.  It's not like protesting in London, Los Angeles, or Berlin.  It's not fun and games in the Middle East.

Also, "The Israeli military said four soldiers had been wounded and claimed troops opened fire after 'demonstrators onboard attacked the IDF Naval personnel with live fire and light weaponry including knives and clubs'", you most certainly do not attack some of the best trained soldiers on the planet unless you're ready, and able, to finish it.

When are moronic first-world activists going to get it into their heads that most of the world can be a very dangerous place?  Maybe now that that they can see what happens?

Good for Israel.


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## Little Wing (May 31, 2010)

i really wouldn't give two shits if israel was wiped off the face of the earth and took gaza with it. israel is a bitter old cunt. you can't really know unless you were there but it sounds as if this action was bullshit and israel is making some fresh enemies.


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## DOMS (May 31, 2010)

Little Wing said:


> i really wouldn't give two shits if israel was wiped off the face of the earth and took gaza with it. israel is a bitter old cunt. you can't really know unless you were there but it sounds as if this action was bullshit and israel is making some fresh enemies.



So what, they should have just let people shoot at them?


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## bandaidwoman (May 31, 2010)

Special Alert: Flotilla Battle Unleashes Anti-Israel Wave

doctormormon, best to read this, it gives a balanced view of what this "humanitarian" flotilla really was. I don't think Israel over reacted. I'm neutral regarding Israel.



> Propaganda Not Humanitarianism
> 
> If there was any doubt that these organizations were unconcerned with universal human rights, this was confirmed by the rejection of a request from the family of Gilad Shalit for activists to pressure Hamas to allow international organizations to bring letters and food packages to the kidnapped soldier in exchange for the family's support for the international expedition's attempt to dock in Gaza.
> 
> ...



Ironically, this site was referred to me by one of the progressive Iranian scientist I work with. 


As an athiest I can tell you this gaza thing will never be resolved.  The issue is not religious, the gaza strip controls water to the region, think about it, squabbllng tribes no matter what the religion in a desert , yes desert region will always fight over land that controls water ( and therefore life).Religions can change and they would still be fighting over this piece of land.....


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## Little Wing (May 31, 2010)

do you have proof they were shot at? nor do i have proof they weren't. it just really does not sound as if that was the purpose of the flotilla. israel had it's ego up it's ass about not letting them reach gaza so it seems POSSIBLE they invented being shot at. you think it's IMPOSSIBLE that israel is full of shit about what actually happened? hmmmm let's see shooting at us is suicide but they wanted to die so bad they did. how does that aid the people they were trying to get aid to? it's just bad logic. about as logical as fighting wars over a turd which is pretty much what's at the bottom of this. this SHITHOLE is mine.


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## Little Wing (May 31, 2010)

if they can't share the water they should all die. fuck 'em. what the hell drives people? if i owned land with water and people bought land beside me and had no water i would gladly share. if there's not enough water to sustain you move, you're living on a barren turd.


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## DOMS (May 31, 2010)

Little Wing said:


> do you have proof they were shot at? nor do i have proof they weren't. it just really does not sound as if that was the purpose of the flotilla. israel had it's ego up it's ass about not letting them reach gaza so it seems POSSIBLE they invented being shot at. you think it's IMPOSSIBLE that israel is full of shit about what actually happened? hmmmm let's see shooting at us is suicide but they wanted to die so bad they did. how does that aid the people they were trying to get aid to? it's just bad logic. about as logical as fighting wars over a turd which is pretty much what's at the bottom of this. this SHITHOLE is mine.



Did you not read bandaidwomans' link?  One of the backers of the flotilla is known for sacrificing people to achieve their ends.

How does it aid them?  It gets uniformed people angry about a situation that they don't fully understand (you) and gets those same people to back them and stand against the oh so unfair Israelis.

I know, I know, a Muslim shooting at a Jew, it just doesn't happen.


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## DOMS (May 31, 2010)

Little Wing said:


> if they can't share the water they should all die. fuck 'em. what the hell drives people? if i owned land with water and people bought land beside me and had no water i would gladly share. if there's not enough water to sustain you move, you're living on a barren turd.



It may have started with water rights, but the Palestinians have made it clear that they simply want to kill every last Israeli.


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## doctormomen (May 31, 2010)

Bullshit..a neutral mind cant believe that those peaceful activists are terrorists..they are from England,Greece,Turkey and many European countries.The attack occurred in the international water.let me say that those Israeli dogs wouldnt dare to do this,unless they have the American green line.....Again Fuck Israel


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## DOMS (May 31, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> Bullshit..a neutral mind cant believe that those peaceful activists are terrorists..they are from England,Greece,Turkey and many European countries.The attack occurred in the international water.let me say that those Israeli dogs wouldnt dare to do this,unless they have the American green line.....Again Fuck Israel



A neutral mind?  Ri-i-i-ght...

It's not like those fucked up Muslims aren't into sacrificing people for their cause.  They've even tried to use a retarded guy to do a suicide bombing.

At least the Israelis do a stand up fight, and don't act like the bitches that Muslims are.


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## Little Wing (May 31, 2010)

DOMS said:


> It may have started with water rights, but the Palestinians have made it clear that they simply want to kill every last Israeli.




i say kill them all and let god sort them out. it is clear by now this will never end and both parties are equally guilty of keeping it going. can you end war with violence? two parties can't get along you kill them both seems to me it would make the next combatants more ready to seek peace.


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## DOMS (May 31, 2010)

Little Wing said:


> i say kill them all and let god sort them out. it is clear by now this will never end and both parties are equally guilty of keeping it going. can you end war with violence? two parties can't get along you kill them both seems to me it would make the next combatants more ready to seek peace.



The real problem is that people outside of the region (the US, UN, UK, etc.) are interfering with the conflict, which has caused it to drag out.

If this fight was left to its own devices, it would have ended a decade or more ago.  Of course, there would be no more Palestinians.  Which I'm okay with.


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## DOMS (May 31, 2010)

Besides, give it time.  At some point, a Arab nation will get a nuke, use it on Israel, and then Israel will nuke them back.  At which point most of the Middle East will be irradiated.

For the betterment of the world.


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## doctormomen (May 31, 2010)

As an athiest I can tell you this gaza thing will never be resolved.  The issue is not religious, the gaza strip controls water to the region, think about it, squabbllng tribes no matter what the religion in a desert , yes desert region will always fight over land that controls water ( and therefore life).Religions can change and they would still be fighting over this piece of land.....[/QUOTE]

wrong thought.its all about belief...its our battle and we gave them the lesson on 6th October..and we r giving them the last lesson soon...israel ..it's just time.


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## Little Wing (May 31, 2010)

DOMS said:


> The real problem is that people outside of the region (the US, UN, UK, etc.) are interfering with the conflict, which has caused it to drag out.
> 
> If this fight was left to its own devices, it would have ended a decade or more ago.  Of course, there would be no more Palestinians.  Which I'm okay with.





DOMS said:


> Besides, give it time.  At some point, a Arab nation will get a nuke, use it on Israel, and then Israel will nuke them back.  At which point most of the Middle East will be irradiated.
> 
> For the betterment of the world.



good and even better. war war war war war war... time to stomp on that area and try something else.


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## DOMS (May 31, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> wrong thought.its all about belief...its our battle and we gave them the lesson on 6th October..and we r giving them the last lesson soon...israel ..it's just time.



What lesson?  That Muslims are cowardly bitches that target women and children?  That Muslims can't fight for shit, witness the 7-day war and the 2006 bitch-slap of Lebanon.

Everyone already knows.


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## doctormomen (May 31, 2010)

the whole world should know who is the real terrorist





YouTube Video


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## DOMS (May 31, 2010)




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## Big Smoothy (May 31, 2010)

Cheers doctormomen,

for calling the racist sickening Jewish Zionist of Israel to task.

Did you all know that it is ILLEGAL for a Jew in Israel to marry a NON-JEW?

Fact.

Your tax dollars hard at work: in the racist religiosist Jewish Israeli hate regime.



> MIXED MARRIAGES:*
> With the exception of consular marriages, a marriage between a Jew and non-Jew may not be performed in Israel. Either the non-Jewish partner must convert to Judaism or the Jewish partner must convert to the religion of the other.*
> 
> Whether two persons of different non-Jewish religious communities may marry depends on the religious laws of the religious communities involved.



U.S. Embassy Israel

For the record, Muslims, do the same.


(I am a non-theist.)


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## doctormomen (May 31, 2010)

DOMS said:


>


really all what u got in ur brain is mocking others..this is all what u have..


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## doctormomen (May 31, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> Cheers doctormomen,
> 
> for calling the racist sickening Jewish Zionist of Israel to task.
> 
> ...


what do u mean by muslims do the same?


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## DOMS (May 31, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> really all what u got in ur brain is mocking others..this is all what u have..



All I have?  I pointed out that any lesson taught was given to the Muslims.  In every major encounter with Israel, they got their asses beat down.  The only thing that the Muslims "win" is killing civilians with bombs.

I also pointed out that Muslims love a martyr.  Which explains why Muslims would start a fire fight in the midst of the activists.  They're cowards who can't fight for shit, so they're trying to influence public opinion by getting innocents killed.


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## Big Smoothy (May 31, 2010)

^ Jewish Israelis kill civilians all of the time.

Do your research.


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## Little Wing (May 31, 2010)

got this email today. 



Emergency protests today‏
                           From: *Jewish Voice for Peace*  (info@jewishvoiceforpeace.org)                                                             Sent:         Mon 5/31/10 3:47 PM                   




                          Message                    



 
[SIZE=-1]                                                                                                                                             Join us on:




 *
*                                                                                                [/SIZE]Jewish Voice for Peace condemns Israel's  attack and killing of members of the Freedom Flotilla aiming to bring  much needed aid to the besieged Gaza Strip.

                    Before the flotilla was attacked, Yigal Palmor, an  Israeli foreign ministry spokesman, said,

"If we let them throw egg at us, we appear stupid with  egg on our face. If we try to prevent them by force, we appear as  brutes." 

                    Israel has more than egg on its face. Israel has  blood on its hands. At least 10 passengers have been killed by Israel  and about 30 wounded in international waters. This is just another  deadly escalation of Israel's harsh repression of nonviolent protests  against the occupation, paid with American tax-dollars.

                    The White House has stated that it "deeply regrets  the loss of life and injuries sustained, and is currently working to  understand the circumstances surrounding this tragedy."  
This is not enough.

                    President Obama should call for an immediate lifting  of the siege of Gaza. He should support an international and impartial  investigation into the tragic killing of civilians in a humanitarian  mission. And he should suspend military aid to Israel until he can  assure the American public that our aid is not used to commit similar  abuses.
*EMERGENCY PROTESTS TODAY*
Join local activist in your area... Here are  some happening right now...
                    (Additional protests here: http://gazafreedommarch.org/cms/en/flotilla/protest.aspx)
NY: 3 PM TODAY, Times Square.  Assemble at  47th St. and 7th Ave.  Look for the JVP banner to join our contingent.

                    SAN FRANCISCO: 12noon TODAY. Israeli Consulate (456 Montgomery St.) and march  to Union Square, Memorial Day. Please be there! Bring your own sign! 1  pm at Market and Powell.

DC: 3pm TODAY: Assemble at the Israeli Embassy, 3514  International Drive NW  (Van Ness Metro Stop), moving to the White House  at 5pm.
SEATTLE: 1:00 pm TODAY. 5th  Avenue and Broad St, Seattle Center near the Experience Music Project.
MIAMI: 5pm-7pm TODAY, at Torch of Friendship (Downtown)


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## GearsMcGilf (May 31, 2010)

It's ironic that whenever Hezbollah or Hamas takes credit for an attack that kills dozens of unarmed Israelis no one bats an eye.  But, if one (Palestinian) civilian gets caught in the crossfire and is killed by Israeli fire, everyone is quick to condemn Israel.  Sounds like two sets of standards at work.  When Israel takes out civilians it's collateral damage.  When Hezbollah or Hamas take out civilians, it's a successful strike.  Go Israel!


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## jmorrison (May 31, 2010)

Every army in the history of conflict has killed civilians.  Do YOUR reseach.

The Isrealis *fucking told them* prior to them even shipping out that they would not be allowed to reach Gaza.  

This wasnt unprovoked, and if they truly DID come under fire, then they handled it the way it should have been.

And Littlewing, while I enjoy most of your posts, this is definately not your area.  Biiter old Cunts?  Try being under almost constant attack for a couple thousand years and see how it affects your views of warfare.

If Isreal told me in no uncertain terms that I would not be permitted to complete a goal, I would fucking reconsider my goals, or undertake them with the express understanding that Israel is not Canada, and they take attacks on their national security pretty seriously.

Doctormomen, you are obviously biased, and your posts show it.


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## Little Wing (May 31, 2010)

it's not the way of the world for men to just bow down before people who tell them shit that they don't want to hear. if it was we'd still live in england and serve the queen.


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## doctormomen (May 31, 2010)

[/QUOTE]jattacks on their national security pretty seriously.

Doctormomen, you are obviously biased, and your posts show it.[/QUOTE]

lol  im biased!! wow ..
Did israel own the international water ????shame


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## DOMS (May 31, 2010)

Little Wing said:


> it's not the way of the world for men to just bow down before people who tell them shit that they don't want to hear. if it was we'd still live in england and serve the queen.



You also shouldn't be stupid enough to stick your neck into a deadly confrontation unless you can take care of yourself.

You also shouldn't bring along people (Muslims) to a potential conflict who are know for their hard-ons of martyrs.

The Muslims got some dumb ass westerns who aren't smart enough to know that the rest of the world isn't like it is the western world to die for them.  I'd be a lot more upset at the Muslims if I didn't feel it was actually a public service.


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## jmorrison (May 31, 2010)

Little Wing said:


> it's not the way of the world for men to just bow down before people who tell them shit that they don't want to hear. if it was we'd still live in england and serve the queen.



I agree completely LW.  But it's also not realistic to think that you can ignore the opposition or the repercussions of defying them.

I see a hot woman at the bar, and want to touch her ass.  She has a huge boyfriend.  I express my intent to touch her ass.  He informs me that he will not allow it.  I attempt to touch her ass.  He intercepts me and beats the fuck out of me.  Who was wrong?

Obviously a retarded example, but I'm sure you see the point.  Who in their right minds defies the Israeli military, and expects it to end well for them?  Not to mention that this is all regardless of whether or not the protestors really did or did not open fire!  If that is true, they are lucky their ships weren't sank.


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## jmorrison (May 31, 2010)

jattacks on their national security pretty seriously.

Doctormomen, you are obviously biased, and your posts show it.[/QUOTE]

lol  im biased!! wow ..
Did israel own the international water ????shame[/QUOTE]


Of course not, *but they still have a right to defend themselves*.  They have no idea what was being shipped to Gaza.  Be it weapons, militants, training aids, etc etc.  They offered to carry the cargo FOR them, but were rebuffed in FAVOR OF THE CONFLICT.  Every country has a right to national security, even those you obviously don't like.

And yes.  you are obviously biased.


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## DOMS (May 31, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> And yes.  you are obviously biased.



If you pick up a jihad for not supporting the blockade run, can I trade you one of mine.   I have jihads for "not putting my woman in a burka", "not denouncing Israel for defending itself", "being an American", and "eating ham".  None of those sound as cool as the one you're gonna get for not supporting the blockade run.  I've tried to earn one on my own, but I just can't seem to pick it up.

So, can we trade?


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## jmorrison (May 31, 2010)

I'm all jihad'd out.  

"does not believe in Mohammed" I think is mine.

Don't get me wrong.  Israels response was maybe extreme, but since when were their military responses moderate?  I guess these protestors never heard of Munich.  I can think of at least 1 or 2 other countries I would rather antagonize by belligerantly shipping shit to their enemies.


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## Curt James (May 31, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> *told them* prior to them even shipping out that they would not be allowed to reach Gaza.
> 
> This wasnt unprovoked, and if they truly DID come under fire, then *they handled it the way it should have been.*



Not sure about that last.

"So how would any other navy enforce a naval  blockade? First, a clear warning in English: Turn back or we shall fire.  Next, A shot across the bow – a last warning to show the seriousness of  our intentions. Finally, firing at the vessel’s propeller, in a bid to  paralyze the ship’s sailing and steering capabilities.    
Only then, and only after allowing the ship to be tossed from  side to side under the sun, the time would come for taking over the  vessel using massive force: Clearing away the decks using water hoses,  splashing oil on its windows, ramming into the vessel, and finally  staging the takeover.    
This is how any self-respecting Navy would conduct itself."

That's an editorial piece from somewhere online. Google any bit of that to find the actual article.

It's a public relations nightmare and, yes, could make more enemies for Israel. Big surprise.

Someone on Facebook stated that Israel wanted to make a statement, well, it looks like someone in that wheelchair-providing flotilla _also _wanted to make a statement.

It's a mess created by poor decisions on both sides.


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## jmorrison (May 31, 2010)

No no, maybe I worded that semi-retarded lol.  What I meant was that if they really DID come under fire from the protesters, then they handled the situation correctly.  Once attacked, all bets are off.


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## Curt James (May 31, 2010)

^Agreed. Trained elite commandos or not. Once they're being fired on they probably turned into Bill Paxton in Aliens.






YouTube Video


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## Little Wing (May 31, 2010)

DOMS said:


> You also shouldn't be stupid enough to stick your neck into a deadly confrontation unless you can take care of yourself.
> 
> You also shouldn't bring along people (Muslims) to a potential conflict who are know for their hard-ons of martyrs.
> 
> The Muslims got some dumb ass westerns who aren't smart enough to know that the rest of the world isn't like it is the western world to die for them.  I'd be a lot more upset at the Muslims if I didn't feel it was actually a public service.



so if we were invaded by muslims and mexicans tomorrow. completely out numbered and out gunned you'd just lay down and die like a dog? not try and take at least one of them out before they killed your children? one man who truly believes his cause is just and his ideals worth fighting for will make a last stand against a hundred rather than go down like a coward not even putting up a fight. it sounds like people are saying if some tyrant has the power it is smart to cower? am i hearing this right?


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## jmorrison (May 31, 2010)

Wow...what!?  You are comparing a bunch of protestors carting in "aid" to Gaza with being invaded by another country!?  If that's not whacked out rhetoric I don't know what is.

They wanted to deliver shit to Gaza.

Israel said, ok, but we will be the ones delivering it, since we don't want you smuggling them weapons/terrorists.

They said "no", just so they could HAVE a conflict, or possibly smuggle shit in.

Israel stopped them.

How the hell does this equate to invasion of your country?  What they did wasn't heroic, it was stupid.  If they support Gaza, fair enough, every man and woman should stand for what they believe in, but when Israel tells you point blank that you will NOT be permitted to do this, going ahead with the master plan is just fucking stupid, and then being upset when it blows up their your face is just helmet-wearing drooling idiocy.

Israel has a right and a duty to defend their people.


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## atomic-peace (May 31, 2010)

*it makes me sick*

makes me sick how people can clearly see injustice and yet still point blame at the Palestinian people. you dont have to be a Muslim to realize there is oppression happening.

still really none of us have any place to talk on these matters. we should rather make things happen with our actions. 



never forget, or one day it may bite you in your ass.


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## atomic-peace (May 31, 2010)

Little Wing said:


> so if we were invaded by muslims and mexicans tomorrow. completely out numbered and out gunned you'd just lay down and die like a dog? not try and take at least one of them out before they killed your children? one man who truly believes his cause is just and his ideals worth fighting for will make a last stand against a hundred rather than go down like a coward not even putting up a fight. it sounds like people are saying if some tyrant has the power it is smart to cower? am i hearing this right?


when has an islamic nation ever invaded Europe or the West since democrisy? stop watching the news save your self from making silly assumptions. if the koran said to kill every non muslim, the world would have be in endless war till the end time. not to mention the non muslims would not have a chance considering the muslims would come till they ALL DIE! many things on propaganda doesnt make seance. the world is turning to islam watch muslim demographics on youtube. and this is happening with out the sword or any invasion. so what happens to the 50million plus muslims in the west, reverts and muslim borns? do you realy think they will destroy the homes they was brought up in? NO the world will exept the laws and principals of islam if they like it or not. it just has the sollution for everything. even if people dont become muslims they are still adopting its manny systems. do  you realy think non of the western or european countries dont have shariah laws as part of their constitutions?

you can see for you self. you may also want to read the works of the scholar Said Nursi. this scholar has built bridges for peace and since his death now there are more than 80 million students in the wrold muslim and non muslim.


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## Little Wing (May 31, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> Wow...what!?  You are comparing a bunch of protestors carting in "aid" to Gaza with being invaded by another country!?  If that's not whacked out rhetoric I don't know what is.
> 
> They wanted to deliver shit to Gaza.
> 
> ...



you need to do some research. a lot of israels "people" think what they are doing in regards to gaza is criminal. and i don't give a shit if it equates that's not my point. i don't think if your heart tells you a cause is just and worth fighting for, standing up for, a man should just piss themself and crawl away cuz the other guy is bigger.


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## Little Wing (May 31, 2010)

atomic-peace said:


> when has an islamic nation ever invaded Europe or the West since democrisy? stop watching the news save your self from making silly assumptions. if the koran said to kill every non muslim, the world would have be in endless war till the end time. not to mention the non muslims would not have a chance considering the muslims would come till they ALL DIE! many things on propaganda doesnt make seance. the world is turning to islam watch muslim demographics on youtube. and this is happening with out the sword or any invasion. so what happens to the 50million plus muslims in the west, reverts and muslim borns? do you realy think they will destroy the homes they was brought up in? NO the world will exept the laws and principals of islam if they like it or not. it just has the sollution for everything. even if people dont become muslims they are still adopting its manny systems. do  you realy think non of the western or european countries dont have shariah laws as part of their constitutions?
> 
> you can see for you self. you may also want to read the works of the scholar Said Nursi. this scholar has built bridges for peace and since his death now there are more than 80 million students in the wrold muslim and non muslim.



i just used muslims and mexicans as an example. maybe i should have chosen a couple tribes from star trek.


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## doctormomen (May 31, 2010)

Curt James said:


> Not sure about that last.
> 
> "So how would any other navy enforce a naval  blockade? First, a clear warning in English: Turn back or we shall fire.  Next, A shot across the bow ??? a last warning to show the seriousness of  our intentions. Finally, firing at the vessel???s propeller, in a bid to  paralyze the ship???s sailing and steering capabilities.
> Only then, and only after allowing the ship to be tossed from  side to side under the sun, the time would come for taking over the  vessel using massive force: Clearing away the decks using water hoses,  splashing oil on its windows, ramming into the vessel, and finally  staging the takeover.
> ...


great words dude!..but can you imagine that those ppl under the fuckin israeli siege for years...who can withstand this ?


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## jmorrison (May 31, 2010)

Little Wing said:


> you need to do some research. a lot of israels "people" think what they are doing in regards to gaza is criminal. and i don't give a shit if it equates that's not my point. i don't think if your heart tells you a cause is just and worth fighting for, standing up for, a man should just piss themself and crawl away cuz the other guy is bigger.



Now you are just talking out of your ass.

I need to do research!?  I have worked hand in hand with the Israeli military several times over, and dealt with this shit non stop.  The "people" you are referring to are a fringe movement.  This is exactly like saying "a lot of US citizens think that eating meat is criminal".  Yeah, it's true, but only in context.  We have a lot of vegetarians, but they are still a minority.

The vast majority of Israeli's support their government, and the steps taken to preserve their national security.

Where the fuck do you keep coming up with these crazy assed scenarios?!  No one is talking about standing up for what they believe like in some 80's high school movie.  We are talking about *Importing goods to Israel's enemy, who is murderously aggressive on a frighteningly alarming rate* 

If you don't pay attention to anything else I am saying, read this part very slowly.

*Israel, and Israel alone tried to avoid this.  They stated that THEY would deliver the goods, but would not allow an unsearched vessel to deliver unknown goods to their enemies in the interests of national security.  If the goal of the protestors was truly humanitarian, and interested only in aid, they would have allowed the Israeli government to deliver the goods.  They were only interested in the conflict and media attention that an incident would provide.*


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## doctormomen (May 31, 2010)

now the European ppl are also terrorists and criminals ..just becoz they aimed to break the siege ...and who's next??


----------



## jmorrison (May 31, 2010)

There goes your bias again.  No one said that anyone is a terrorist or criminal.  I suppose you think that the airport security folks are accusing you of being a terrorist when they check your baggage?

Nope.  It's just a reasonable precaution in the vein of security.

You really aren't even worth bothering with.  The only reason I am still in this thread is because I like LW and am trying to make her see the light.

You are just a biased bag of unsubstantiated bullshit with incendiary comments.


***EDIT*** Oh yeah, I haven't spent much time addressing the possible attack from the "humanitarians", because, as LW pointed out, we weren't there.  BUT, if it IS true, and they DID open fire on the Israelis, then yes, they are criminals/terrorists, or at a minimum harboring some on board.


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## doctormomen (Jun 1, 2010)

i hope that some one shows us the weapons that they found on the ships then.if im biased,then you should be 10 times biased more....keep ur hand in their bloody hand and shut up....i think u need to put yourself in a siege for sometime to feel it...


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## doctormomen (Jun 1, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> The only reason I am still in this thread is because I like LW and am trying to make her see the light.


i think little wing is not in need for ur light,she has a definite view and her heart still beating...


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## jmorrison (Jun 1, 2010)

You're probably right.  The injured Israeli soldiers probably just hurt themselves.

Way to avoid the entire text of my post except for the part that is conjecture.  I am not saying that they had weapons.  I said if they DID have weapons, then yes, they are terrorists/criminals or harboring them.

Even if not, Israel still had a responsibility to ensure that the goods for delivery were not warfare items.

Here.  I can prove your bias.  Watch this.  Just answer 1 very simple question:

1. What would have been the downfall of allowing Israel to deliver the goods after inspection so that they could ensure national security?

Just answer that one.

I am not biased whatsoever.  I have no ties to Israel, I just firmly believe in a countries sovereign right to protect itself.  I am neither Jewish nor Muslim, and frankly find religious conflict to be just about the epitome of human stupidity.  You however, have an obvious agenda.

***Edit*** And to your insulting little jab in that last one about her heart still beating, and implying that I am not.  Fuck off.  Without meeting you or knowing anything about you, I would venture to bet that I have contributed more to humanitarian causes, both politically and personally than you could fathom.  I have served my country.  I have served our allies.  I have saved children, I even delivered a fucking baby from a woman in a bombed out house, that was shrieking curses at me the whole time, and telling me to "go burn" because I didn't believe in her fucking God, and I am no doctor.  I know right from wrong, so take your horseshit and shove it right up your ass.


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## doctormomen (Jun 1, 2010)

israel will deliver the goods to Gazans after inspection...i think i need to laugh..


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## jmorrison (Jun 1, 2010)

Thank you for proving my point.

Yes.  After announcing to the media that they would deliver the goods themselves, Israel would have just been evil and kept them for themselves.

Don't look now, your bias (and stupidity) is showing.

I'm out.


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## doctormomen (Jun 1, 2010)

LOLs  on silly brains..


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## jmorrison (Jun 1, 2010)

Just adding that linking pictures of dead children to back up your point is disgusting and in incredibly bad taste.  You could just as easily link pictures of dead children from any conflict.  Bad horrible shit happens in war/conflict.

Bad form.  You should take that post down.


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## jmorrison (Jun 1, 2010)

Try to understand something you ignorant fuck.  I am not saying that the  pictures are fake.  I am saying that posting them is in bad taste.  This isn't the anything goes forum.  We are all aware that children die in war.  It's awful.  You don't need to link pictures of dead babies.  Its just sad and disturbing, and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


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## bandaidwoman (Jun 1, 2010)

I love stratfor and pay the money to subscribe to them, very bipartisan and gives a different picture of events and the underlying facts.




> Flotillas and the Wars of Public Opinion
> May 31, 2010
> 
> 
> ...


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## DOMS (Jun 1, 2010)

Little Wing said:


> so if we were invaded by muslims and mexicans tomorrow. completely out numbered and out gunned you'd just lay down and die like a dog? not try and take at least one of them out before they killed your children? one man who truly believes his cause is just and his ideals worth fighting for will make a last stand against a hundred rather than go down like a coward not even putting up a fight. it sounds like people are saying if some tyrant has the power it is smart to cower? am i hearing this right?



Good grief, you brought that picture out the last time this topic came up...

That's a man standing up for his _*own rights*_ in his _*own country*_.  The flotilla didn't have any Palestinians on it.

Also, you don't get involved in a conflict, show up, shoot at them, and then get to bitch that you got your ass mauled.


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## DOMS (Jun 1, 2010)

Little Wing said:


> you need to do some research. a lot of israels "people" think what they are doing in regards to gaza is criminal. and i don't give a shit if it equates that's not my point. i don't think if your heart tells you a cause is just and worth fighting for, standing up for, a man should just piss themself and crawl away cuz the other guy is bigger.



Big fucking deal.  Every war the US has been in, there were fucktards saying that it was wrong.  Every single one.

Also, I've seen the videos of some Jews in Israel whining about the conflict.  They were almost entirely 18-20 year olds that don't know jack about shit.

Whoopdie-fucking-doo.


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## DOMS (Jun 1, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> Now you are just talking out of your ass.
> 
> I need to do research!?  I have worked hand in hand with the Israeli military several times over, and dealt with this shit non stop.  The "people" you are referring to are a fringe movement.  This is exactly like saying "a lot of US citizens think that eating meat is criminal".  Yeah, it's true, but only in context.  We have a lot of vegetarians, but they are still a minority.



Damn, I can't give you anymore reps yet.


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## YorkKnight (Jun 1, 2010)

Israel are out of control, they are a Rogue state. they are running the worlds Media, the Worlds Banks, they have a huge Nukular arsenal. they do what they want to whoever they want, and nobody is gonna stop them. the USA bank roles their Wars- whats next a preemptive strike against Iran???  then send in young American and British Soldiers to die for their Zionist cause... WAKE UP THE WORLD

"Even if we Jews are not bodily with you in the trenches, we are
nevertheless morally with you. This is OUR WAR, and you are fighting it
for us." (Les Nouvelles Litteraires, February 10, 1940).D!!!


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## DOMS (Jun 1, 2010)

YorkKnight said:


> Israel are out of control, they are a Rogue state. they are running the worlds Media, the Worlds Banks, they have a huge Nukular arsenal. they do what they want to whoever they want, and nobody is gonna stop them. the USA bank roles their Wars- whats next a preemptive strike against Iran???  then send in young American and British Soldiers to die for their Zionist cause... WAKE UP THE WORLD
> 
> "Even if we Jews are not bodily with you in the trenches, we are
> nevertheless morally with you. This is OUR WAR, and you are fighting it
> for us." (Les Nouvelles Litteraires, February 10, 1940).D!!!



I don't want to spread rumors, but I've also heard that they're the ones that got Lucas to create those last three Star Wars movies.

Which is unforgivable.


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## Big Smoothy (Jun 1, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> what do u mean by muslims do the same?



Muslims, do do, the same.

In Malaysia for example.

A Muslim nation.

A Muslim must only marry a Muslim, by law.

It's illegal for a Muslim to marry a non-muslim and vice-versa in Malaysia.


Muslims and Jews, worship the same god referred to as Yahweh/Allah.

And both, are hypocritical bigots.


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## doctormomen (Jun 1, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> Muslims, do do, the same.
> 
> In Malaysia for example.
> 
> ...



if you would allow me to clear it,
Muslim man can marry a christian or jew woman,becoz He believes in Jesus and Moses and their bibles.
christian and jews men can not marry a muslim woman-according to islamic sharia- becoz they dont believe in Mohamed or in Qur'an.
islam is the last and the comprehensive message from the god of Moses,Jesus and all the prophets.


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## Little Wing (Jun 1, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> There goes your bias again.  No one said that anyone is a terrorist or criminal.  I suppose you think that the airport security folks are accusing you of being a terrorist when they check your baggage?
> 
> Nope.  It's just a reasonable precaution in the vein of security.
> 
> ...




supposedly one of the organizers of the flotilla clearly stated the aim was not simply to deliver aid but to break israel's siege. the flotilla was a statement SUPPOSEDLY, a peaceful protest. i have no way of knowing but if the people on the flotilla started the violence they got what they deserved. and i do believe it would be critical to know exactly what was on the boats, it would be stupid not to search them. all common sense though says this was a non violent mission that the israelis escalated to avoid egg on their faces. if i didn't want bubba to cross my pond in his boat i could easily stop him by crippling his boat, i don't need to shoot the stupid bastard. same goes on a bigger scale. i think both sides there though are too angry to act rationally and that is never good.


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## ZECH (Jun 1, 2010)

If the US had half the guts Israel had, we would be alot better off. It is God's chosen land and will never be overtaken.


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## Little Wing (Jun 1, 2010)

DOMS said:


> Big fucking deal.  Every war the US has been in, there were fucktards saying that it was wrong.  Every single one.
> 
> Also, I've seen the videos of some Jews in Israel whining about the conflict.  They were almost entirely 18-20 year olds that don't know jack about shit.
> 
> Whoopdie-fucking-doo.



maybe if you lived there you'd get sick of the fighting too? i think these kids have a right to say motherfucker can we can get a break from this shit. move your kids to a war zone and tell them not to whine about it.


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## omerta2010 (Jun 1, 2010)

A DUI checkpoint is going to be set up and is put in the papers to everybody is aware of it.

I call the police department and let them know I have no intention of drinking that night, and let them know what I'll be driving.

They warn me that it's policy on a holiday weekend they stop all cars at the dui checkpoint.

So a friend and I decide to take that road on the way home, and I drive around everybody waiting as well as the police cars.

Do I really expect the officers to just let me drive on by, maybe even give me a quick wave to say hi?

No, I'm going to get chased down, and most likely pulled out of my car because those officers don't know what my true intentions were. And most likely so would my friend, and say he bruises his knee on the pavement.

Should I be mad at them or should I take some responsibility for being an asshole and going against the authority in charge (plus getting my friend injured)?


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## Little Wing (Jun 1, 2010)

how about i just shoot you and your friend cuz i'm tired of your bullshit and i told you there was going to be a roadblock? you have a phone and a car i have a gun and i'm not fucking around.


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## Little Wing (Jun 1, 2010)

i'll just say you shot at me first. a lot of people want to believe that anyway and the truth is so flexible in these situations.


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## doctormomen (Jun 1, 2010)

omerta2010 said:


> A DUI checkpoint is going to be set up and is put in the papers to everybody is aware of it.
> 
> I call the police department and let them know I have no intention of drinking that night, and let them know what I'll be driving.
> 
> ...


sick example..there r no any similarity ...


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## Little Wing (Jun 1, 2010)

you know i heard the israeli spokesman said to the head flotilla guy "do you feel lucky punk? well do ya?"

seriously all they need to do to say fuck you to all this bad press is say and what would gaza do if they had the firepower and the upper hand? would they be any more merciful? peace seeking? i can't think of the word i want... benevolent?


 i think both sides are equally _mal_evolent. 

so i guess it is true some Americans will say a plague upon both your houses.


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## DOMS (Jun 1, 2010)

Little Wing said:


> maybe if you lived there you'd get sick of the fighting too? i think these kids have a right to say motherfucker can we can get a break from this shit. move your kids to a war zone and tell them not to whine about it.



Sure they can say, but you need to realize that they are a very, very small group of people and don't represent jack shit.  I bet there is a much larger group of Israelis that want to kill all the Palestinians right now.  So why don't we just do that instead?


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## Little Wing (Jun 1, 2010)

DOMS said:


> Sure they can say, but you need to realize that they are a very, very small group of people and don't represent jack shit.  I bet there is a much larger group of Israelis that want to kill all the Palestinians right now.  So why don't we just do that instead?



because the world is too pussified to simply get shit done anymore. the court of public opinion stands smack square in the way of doing what needs to be done. ... to CRUSH your enemy...


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## ROID (Jun 1, 2010)

Why did the individuals on the boat have guns to begin with if it was a humanitarian mission?

maybe that's explained somewhere but I am too lazy to read anything other than my own posts or replies to my posts.


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## maniclion (Jun 1, 2010)

Both sides the Palestinians and Israeli's are like a couple pre-teen siblings in the backseat on a car ride with nothing better to occupy their time.  They are just capable of doing damage but not big enough for either one to get the upper hand and stop it.  And they just instigate one another...."Mom his fingernail is on my side of the line!!!"  "Nuh-uh he breathed into my space first" then they resort to fisticuffs....then the cool off period for a while until they get cranky again.....


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## Little Wing (Jun 1, 2010)

if i was going someplace dangerous even on a peaceful mission i would want a gun. i would want one camping in the maine woods with my kids just because of people not animals.... shit happens, it's better to be somewhat prepared.


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## omerta2010 (Jun 1, 2010)

Little Wing said:


> how about i just shoot you and your friend cuz i'm tired of your bullshit and i told you there was going to be a roadblock? you have a phone and a car i have a gun and i'm not fucking around.


 
If you were the cop it's my fault for being a moron and I'd be the one to live or die because of my choice, and yes it would be sad for the friend, but I'd be the one responsible for him beign shot because it was based on a decision I made. (Just like the person who decided it was better to try to run the barricade instead of getting the aid throught the right channels is the one responsible for these people's deaths, they are the ones who put the people into that situation, it doesn't matter who did what first if they weren't put into that situation nobody would have ended up dead)

Dieing for a cause is stupid seeing as how YOUR DEAD, and if it doesn't work your still DEAD and they win.

I'm really tired of people always blaming others for stupid choices and never taking responsibility for there actions, why is it everybody thinks they are entitled to be able to break laws and never pay the consquences.


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## doctormomen (Jun 1, 2010)

i think you guys need to review the history and realize who is the true Settler...


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## omerta2010 (Jun 1, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> sick example..there r no any similarity ...


 
Really? I'll simplify.

Checkpoint - Baracade
Cops - Isreal's Military
Me and friend - floatilla 

Not as grand a stage but the situation is the same. Somebody made a choice to go against the law/authority. Did they really expect to just be let through?

Maybe "ignorence is bliss" should be the group's motto, because that is what they did and as a result they put all those people in harms way. 

It just amazes me nobody is holding the one who made the final call to go against the baracade responsible for a decision, intended or not that resulted in people's death.


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## doctormomen (Jun 1, 2010)

whats the hell gives the stupid israeli the right to do this in the international water ???


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## jmorrison (Jun 1, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> Just adding that linking pictures of dead children to back up your point is disgusting and in incredibly bad taste.  You could just as easily link pictures of dead children from any conflict.  Bad horrible shit happens in war/conflict.
> 
> Bad form.  You should take that post down.



Doctormomen,

Thank you for taking down the photos.  I tried to give you the reps back but I couldn't.

Just for FYI for everone else.

What's to investigate? We know what happened to the Gaza flotilla. - By Shmuel Rosner - Slate Magazine

Just a snippet:

*As long as blockade is the policy, no bunch of kooky protesters can be given the right to enter, no matter how peaceful they claim to be. Neither Turkey nor Russia nor France nor Britain would allow a ship of protesters to cross into its territory, nor into territory it had declared impassable. Whether Gaza is entitled to jurisdiction over its shore is another worthy debate. But it also has nothing to do with the failure of the Israeli government to effectively enforce its policy.

*


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## ROID (Jun 1, 2010)

Little Wing said:


> if i was going someplace dangerous even on a peaceful mission i would want a gun. i would want one camping in the maine woods with my kids just because of people not animals.... shit happens, it's better to be somewhat prepared.



just let me know if you need a little protection


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## maniclion (Jun 1, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> i think you guys need to review the history and realize who is the true Settler...


True settler, meaning way back when Judaism was prominent and Islam nor Christianity existed?


----------



## DOMS (Jun 1, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> Doctormomen,
> 
> Thank you for taking down the photos



He didn't take shit down.  They disappeared right after I flagged them.  This is the OC, not Anything Goes.  That shit doesn't belong here.


----------



## DOMS (Jun 1, 2010)




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## Little Wing (Jun 1, 2010)

ROID said:


> just let me know if you need a little protection


----------



## ZECH (Jun 1, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> i think you guys need to review the history and realize who is the true Settler...



One thing you arent mentioning. Israel voluntarily pulled out at one time with no desire for war until hamas started shelling them night and day and they said screw it, we're taking back our shit. It's not about land and who's got it. Hamas (Palestinians) only want one thing. Destruction of Israel. They are only defending themselves. I also understand that this is very complicated and can argued forever.


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## GearsMcGilf (Jun 1, 2010)

dg806 said:


> One thing you arent mentioning. Israel voluntarily pulled out at one time with no desire for war until hamas started shelling them night and day and they said screw it, we're taking back our shit. It's not about land and who's got it. Hamas (Palestinians) only want one thing. Destruction of Israel. They are only defending themselves. I also understand that this is very complicated and can argued forever.



LMAO!  I think the 2000 pic looks a lot better.  At least something's being accomplished in that arab/muslim cesspool as Israel expands.  Where as they accomplished nothing themselves for 3000 years.  If Israel disappeared off the map tomorrow, they'd just start killing each other off like they did after Yassir Arafat croaked.  Fine with me if the whole fucking picture turns white


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## Curt James (Jun 1, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> great words dude!..but can you imagine that those ppl under the fuckin israeli siege for years...who can withstand this ?



I'm totally divorced from their sense of history or faith or devotion.

If a group of people surrounded my apartment and said GTFO? I'd probably pack up my things and move. 

Simplistic. Irrelevant. But I don't see myself going nuts over a claim of this roof over some other roof somewhere else.

Otoh, _where _exactly do the Israelis want the Palestinians to move?


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## Big Smoothy (Jun 1, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> if you would allow me to clear it,
> Muslim man can marry a christian or jew woman,becoz He believes in Jesus and Moses and their bibles.
> christian and jews men can not marry a muslim woman-according to islamic sharia- becoz they dont believe in Mohamed or in Qur'an.
> islam is the last and the comprehensive message from the god of Moses,Jesus and all the prophets.



Bigotry and discrimination is.....bigotry and discrimination.

Can one build a church in Saudi Arabia.

How about me?

I don't believe Mohamed was a prophet, I don't believe Jesus was a prophet (as Muslims do) nor do I believe he was the son of Yahweh.  I don't believe in the Talmud.  I don't believe in the concept of the Methuselah, in which Noah lived to be 969 years old and fathered children while he was hundreds of years old.  I also do not believe Joseph Smith was a prophet.  I do not believe the Jews are the "chosen" people. 

Now, back to Israel, and the next supply ship, which will be escorted by the Turkish Navy.


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## TheGreatSatan (Jun 2, 2010)

I've never understood why Americans care at all. They've _always_ hated eachother and always will. The news broadcaster said that this will strain peace talks! Are you freaking serious!! Peace talks? There will *never* be peace. They've been talking of peace for how many years?

I say we let them wipe eachother off the map and we'll turn our backs on it. No news of it or nothing.

Any U.S. protesters/sympathizers deserve what they get if they go there.


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## Little Wing (Jun 2, 2010)

Latest Updates: Gaza aid flotilla raid, protests – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs

Israeli forces have unloaded the humanitarian cargo from the aid  flotilla and taken it into Gaza through the Kerem Shalom border  crossing, the Israeli military said.

Since the summer of 2008, five flotillas have gotten through the  blockage to deliver humanitarian goods, the Free Gaza Movement said.


----------



## DOMS (Jun 2, 2010)

TheGreatSatan said:


> I've never understood why Americans care at all. They've _always_ hated eachother and always will. The news broadcaster said that this will strain peace talks! Are you freaking serious!! Peace talks? There will *never* be peace. They've been talking of peace for how many years?
> 
> I say we let them wipe eachother off the map and we'll turn our backs on it. No news of it or nothing.
> 
> Any U.S. protesters/sympathizers deserve what they get if they go there.



Wipe each other off the map?  I don't think you understand how this would end if outside people stopped interfering.


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## DOMS (Jun 2, 2010)

Little Wing said:


> Latest Updates: Gaza aid flotilla raid, protests – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs
> 
> Israeli forces have unloaded the humanitarian cargo from the aid  flotilla and taken it into Gaza through the Kerem Shalom border  crossing, the Israeli military said.
> 
> Since the summer of 2008, five flotillas have gotten through the  blockage to deliver humanitarian goods, the Free Gaza Movement said.



The Israelis are much nicer about it than I would have been.  I'd have flown it up to 5,000 thousand feet, and then given it to the Palestinians.


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## Big Smoothy (Jun 2, 2010)

TheGreatSatan said:


> I've never understood why Americans care at all. They've _always_ hated eachother and always will. The news broadcaster said that this will strain peace talks! Are you freaking serious!! Peace talks? There will *never* be peace. They've been talking of peace for how many years?



Totally agree.



> I say we let them wipe eachother off the map and we'll turn our backs on it. No news of it or nothing.



Hezbollah is likely warming up for round 2, and did a pretty good job against the Israelis in the Summer 2006.

A stalemate, at best. 

As for "blowing each other up," it's up to them, IMO.

Their business. 

Syria may be still trying to acquire nuke technology, and we all know about Iran.

Also, the demographic issue: 20% of Israeli citizens are Pali-Arab, and their birthrates are much higher than Israeli Jews.

Also, the birthrate/population growth of Gaza and the West bank, compared to Israel.


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## bio-chem (Jun 2, 2010)

Go Isreal. they need a free license to do whatever they need to over there. screw the international pansy asses. handle business Isreal. If the muslims are incapable of policing themselves and their radicals then they should all be grouped together as world trash.


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## doctormomen (Jun 2, 2010)

we were about to totally wipe those pigs off in 1973,unless the american supplies flowed to tell aviv.even when they were the settler ,the usa was by their side......this is really fair.We-Muslims-do not hate the american ppl themselves,but we hate those american governers who accepted to be under the israeli shoes against any arabian rights.


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## bio-chem (Jun 2, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> we were about to totally wipe those pigs off in 1973,



that right there is why i support Israel full throated. You don't seem like a radical muslim, yet here you are supporting the total destruction of a nation and people. 

 I can't wait till your oil runs out and the middleast goes back to what it was. a bunch of insignificant on the world stage, camel riding, tribal third worlders searching for water.


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## DOMS (Jun 2, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> we were about to totally wipe those pigs off in 1973,unless the american supplies flowed to tell aviv.even when they were the settler ,the usa was by their side......this is really fair..



You mean the Yom Kippur War?  True, the Israelis were on the ropes, but it was far from over.  The reason you still would have been defeated, and the reason that the US sent aid, was that the Israelis were about to launch their nuclear weapons.  No matter what, you losers weren't going to win.




doctormomen said:


> We-Muslims-do not hate the american ppl themselves,but we hate those american governers who accepted to be under the israeli shoes against any arabian rights.



Really?  

So the people in the Trade Towers were "American governors"?  Or the people on the planes?   Or the sailors on the USS Cole? Or the people in the US embassy? Or the reporters that the Muslims have killed?  

Fuck you, you lying sack of shit.  I can't wait until the Israelis nuke the majority of your loser race off the planet.


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## doctormomen (Jun 2, 2010)

anyhow,i would thank every one shared his opinion on this topic.
at least i found some americans still fair,have a brain and a beating heart...this is not a loss at all.
again and again ..im against killing innocents ..im against what happened in 9/11 ...
those who did that do not represent islam..do not represent us..
extremists r every where..every religion..every belief..


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## bio-chem (Jun 2, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> those who did that do not represent islam..do not represent us..
> extremists r every where..every religion..every belief..



true, Christians have the KKK. however Christians police themselves. When the KKK steps up the rest of the Christian world beats them down.When priests abuse kids and we find out about it we prosecute the priest and the church protecting them. we don't allow the minority to speak for us. that is not the case with Muslims.


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## Big Smoothy (Jun 2, 2010)

For the record I despise, Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

And bio-chem.

I refuted your, refutations in the mormon thread......I notice you haven't responded.


----------



## KelJu (Jun 2, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> anyhow,i would thank every one shared his opinion on this topic.
> at least i found some americans still fair,have a brain and a beating heart...this is not a loss at all.
> again and again ..im against killing innocents ..im against what happened in 9/11 ...
> those who did that do not represent islam..do not represent us..
> extremists r every where..every religion..every belief..



You are a fundamentalist Islamic douchbag. I hope Isreal kills all of you and your family.


----------



## Will Brink (Jun 2, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet - Middle East - Al Jazeera English



The vids from BOTH sides show who attacked who. Nice thing about modern technology, don't have to the word of one side vs the other, especially that of a bunch of lying muslims on some BS peace flotilla:


YouTube - Demonstrators Use Violence Against Israeli Navy Soldiers Attempting to Board Ship

Lots of vids like this, from BOTH sides all showing exactly who started the violence. 

Two, the IDF showed HUGE restraint and could have killed 100 people in a few minutes had they chosen to, but they didn't. 

Me, I would have opened up on those D bags the second they started to club me. knife me, etc, and or my team mates which would have been the true slaughter the peace loving boaters are wining about. 

Once the facts come out, as they so quickly are due to the wonders that is the 'net, this will be short lived PR for the pretend "peace loving" Muslims who set this all up.


----------



## DOMS (Jun 2, 2010)

YouTube Video


----------



## Will Brink (Jun 2, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet - Middle East - Al Jazeera English



The vids from BOTH sides show who attacked who. Nice thing about modern technology, don't have to the word of one side vs the other, especially that of a bunch of lying muslims on some BS peace flotilla:







YouTube Video











Lots of vids like this, from BOTH sides all showing exactly who started the violence. 

Two, the IDF showed HUGE restraint and could have killed 100 people in a few minutes had they chosen to, but they didn't. 

Me, I would have opened up on those D bags the second they started to club me. knife me, etc, and or my team mates which would have been the true slaughter the peace loving boaters are wining about. 

Once the facts come out, as they so quickly are due to the wonders that is the 'net, this will be short lived PR for the pretend "peace loving" Muslims who set this all up.


----------



## maniclion (Jun 2, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> anyhow,i would thank every one shared his opinion on this topic.
> at least i found some americans still fair,have a brain and a beating heart...this is not a loss at all.
> again and again ..im against killing innocents ..im against what happened in 9/11 ...
> those who did that do not represent islam..do not represent us..
> extremists r every where..every religion..every belief..



"Said a blade of grass to an autumn leaf, "You make such a noise falling! You scatter all my winter dreams."

Said the leaf indignant, "Low-born and low-dwelling! Songless, peevish thing! You live not in the upper air and you cannot tell the sound of singing."

Then the autumn leaf lay down upon the earth and slept. And when spring came she waked again -- and she was a blade of grass.

And when it was autumn and her winter sleep was upon her, and above her through all the air the leaves were falling, she muttered to herself, "O these autumn leaves! They make such a noise! They scatter all my winter dreams."


----------



## doctormomen (Jun 2, 2010)

KelJu said:


> You are a fundamentalist Islamic douchbag. I hope Isreal kills all of you and your family.


----------



## DOMS (Jun 2, 2010)

doctormomen said:


>



Which brings up a point...

You've done shit to refute anything that anyone has had to say about the pathetic nature of your argument points or the douche-baggery that is Muslims in general.

Sucks to be you.  Really.


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 2, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> For the record I despise, Christians, Jews, and Muslims.
> 
> And bio-chem.
> 
> I refuted your, refutations in the mormon thread......I notice you haven't responded.



you are following me in other threads now? seriously? thats pretty desperate 


you didn't refute anything. Im more than happy to let your worthless post from an anti-mormon website sit without a response. nothing there hadn't already been discussed and shown to be ridiculous. good luck with your witch hunt.

every time you post another 100 mormons get baptized. you keep up the good work for us. 

sorry for going off topic here and responding to this guys. hopefully this douche will learn not to follow me in other threads


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 2, 2010)

DOMS said:


> Which brings up a point...
> 
> You've done shit to refute anything that anyone has had to say about the pathetic nature of your argument points or the douche-baggery that is Muslims in general.
> 
> Sucks to be you.  Really.



I owe you more reputation DOMS.


----------



## doctormomen (Jun 2, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> i owe you more reputation doms.


lol


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 2, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> LOL



.


----------



## jmorrison (Jun 2, 2010)

DOMS said:


> Which brings up a point...
> 
> You've done shit to refute anything that anyone has had to say about the pathetic nature of your argument points or the douche-baggery that is Muslims in general.
> 
> Sucks to be you.  Really.



He has nothing to back his arguments up with.  Most fanatics don't.  Logic is no deterrent to mindless idiocy.  Is that redundant?  Yes, I think it is.  Sticking with it though.


----------



## maniclion (Jun 2, 2010)

doctormomen said:


>


Are you an agent of Homeland Security just trying to find out who the Islamofacist sympathizers are....looks like Curt James repped you recently guess who get's a full cavity search next time they go to the airport....


----------



## ZECH (Jun 2, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> Bigotry and discrimination is.....bigotry and discrimination.
> 
> Can one build a church in Saudi Arabia.
> 
> ...


Are you athiest?


----------



## DOMS (Jun 2, 2010)

dg806 said:


> Are you athiest?



He's a douche bag.


----------



## GearsMcGilf (Jun 2, 2010)

I've actually had several mates over the years who are muslims.  While they all dislike Israel, they claim that suicide is the ultimate sin in islam and that the suiciders are not true muslims for doing what they do.  I always argue with them that if more moderate muslims would speak out that these islamofascists don't represent islam, than islam wouldn't be getting the bad rap that it has been getting.  The response is always "well we do!  But, the fucking media ignores it and only covers the radicals."  I'm still  not convinced that some of these younger, more secular muslims I've run into actually represent mainstream islam.  It's pretty friggin confusing sometimes.  For ever one who condemns radicals, there seems to be three or more who empathize with them.


----------



## jmorrison (Jun 2, 2010)

dg806 said:


> Are you athiest?



He's a troll.  But in his defense, he is a really GOOD troll.  It's hard to tell when he is serious or just getting a rise out of someone.


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 2, 2010)

dg806 said:


> Are you athiest?



No. 

I am not an atheist.


----------



## lnvanry (Jun 3, 2010)

Just got back from the Gulf a few hours ago and its all over the news there...Israel is losing a PR battle in places where it counts, like Europe.  It was a military decision that was piss poor IMHO.  There are a million different things they could have done (like maybe shooting out the prop or engine with a high caliber machine gun or simply closed all the docks on Gaza)...why would you send in armed troops from helos and expect a normal outcome?  I don't blame the GIs shooting for their safety, but that was a poor display of tactical operation.

BTW, this doesn't change much with Turkey and Israel...Turkey is still spending over 
$150M on Israeli defense hardware.  These two countries always blast each other in public, but shake hands in private...though the public is not aware to it


----------



## lnvanry (Jun 3, 2010)

here's one public domain sale

Turkey's PM says Israel should be punished | Reuters

read last paragraph...drones are just one little piece of the picture.  There are joint military efforts in regards to area and strategic missile defense.


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 3, 2010)

lnvanry said:


> Just got back from the Gulf a few hours ago and its all over the news there...Israel is losing a PR battle in places where it counts, like Europe.  It was a military decision that was piss poor IMHO.  There are a million different things they could have done (like maybe shooting out the prop or engine with a high caliber machine gun or simply closed all the docks on Gaza)...why would you send in armed troops from helos and expect a normal outcome?  I don't blame the GIs shooting for their safety, but that was a poor display of tactical operation.
> 
> BTW, this doesn't change much with Turkey and Israel...Turkey is still spending over
> $150M on Israeli defense hardware.  These two countries always blast each other in public, but shake hands in private...though the public is not aware to it



Thanks for the info, Ivanry.

Cheers.


----------



## bandaidwoman (Jun 3, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> I've actually had several mates over the years who are muslims.  While they all dislike Israel, they claim that suicide is the ultimate sin in islam and that the suiciders are not true muslims for doing what they do.  I always argue with them that if more moderate muslims would speak out that these islamofascists don't represent islam, than islam wouldn't be getting the bad rap that it has been getting.  The response is always "well we do!  But, the fucking media ignores it and only covers the radicals."  I'm still  not convinced that some of these younger, more secular muslims I've run into actually represent mainstream islam.  It's pretty friggin confusing sometimes.  For ever one who condemns radicals, there seems to be three or more who empathize with them.



part of it is our press. 

For instance, the Cordoba Initiative is a muslim society that condemns radicals and fundamentalism, wants to promote tolerance among all faiths ( not out to convert infadils over).they are antiterrorists yet when they want to build a conferance center with pools, auditoriums, and a prayer hall and a memorial to the 9-11 victims  that invites all religions they get slammed with saying they are building a mosque.  It's the muslim equivalent of the YMCA for God's sake  yet the media blasts them for building this conferance center near the Twin Towers.  Hello..... these are the muslims you want on your side, not the radical shiites or sunnis.  Honestly, I never would have known about them except for the fact the Iranian collegue that gave me the article defending the israeli action in this thread belongs to them.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions..._proposed_muslim_center_near_ground_zero.html


A direct quote from one of the leaders :


> My colleagues and I are the anti-terrorists. *We are the people who want to embolden the vast majority of Muslims who hate terrorism to stand up to the radical rhetoric*..



Our press should be lauding them for what they stand for.  It's no different than the peaceful missionaries who came after the Taiping rebellion which killed 58-70 million of my countrymen trying to clarify the "real christians" would not have perpetuated such a horrific rebellion.


----------



## busyLivin (Jun 3, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> that right there is why i support Israel full throated. You don't seem like a radical muslim, yet here you are supporting the total destruction of a nation and people.
> 
> I can't wait till your oil runs out and the middleast goes back to what it was. a bunch of insignificant on the world stage, camel riding, tribal third worlders searching for water.


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 3, 2010)

DOMS said:


> He's a douche bag.



damn, more reps owed.


----------



## doctormomen (Jun 3, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> I've actually had several mates over the years who are muslims.  While they all dislike Israel, they claim that suicide is the ultimate sin in islam and that the suiciders are not true muslims for doing what they do.  I always argue with them that if more moderate muslims would speak out that these islamofascists don't represent islam, than islam wouldn't be getting the bad rap that it has been getting.  The response is always "well we do!  But, the fucking media ignores it and only covers the radicals."  I'm still  not convinced that some of these younger, more secular muslims I've run into actually represent mainstream islam.  It's pretty friggin confusing sometimes.  For ever one who condemns radicals, there seems to be three or more who empathize with them.




believe me dear,islam is totally against killing innocent people whatever their religion or race.islam stated to fight those who begin fighting us,not more.find this yourself in the Qur'an,and look up what are the islamic rules in wars.and dont forget that those islamic extremists were made originally by the united states to get the Russians down,so dont blame only them.the united states always enjoyed playing a dirty policy in the middle east and now it's getting it paid back.the united states now facing major problems,it got itself involved with Iraq,,Afghanistan,and soon North Korea and Iran.in addition to the indoor critical economic situation,increase in the unemployment that reached 9.9% last Jan.,Bankruptcy  proceedings that reached the highest level last month since 2005..according to the The  American Treasury Department: the  U.S. public debt of the United States reached 13 trillion dollars for  the first time, raising a debate on government spending plans.,also we cant close our eyes for the environmental Disaster in the gulf of mexico,this will cost the Bp at least one billion dollars to face this disaster..in addition to the billion of dollars required to cover the war in the middle east { according to the american army,the american troops who commit suicide is higher than those who killed in Iraq} ,and the money paid to israeli army to face Hamas rockets,wich originally paid by the american ppl as taxes.
it's the time to stop seeing the american governers as angels.it's the time to stop escaping the problems.it's the time for the wise voice in the states to rise.


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 3, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> believe me dear,islam is totally against killing innocent people whatever their religion or race.islam stated to fight those who begin fighting us,not more.find this yourself in the Qur'an,and look up what are the islamic rules in wars.and dont forget that those islamic extremists were made originally by the united states to get the Russians down,so dont blame only them.the united states always enjoyed playing a dirty policy in the middle east and now it's getting it paid back.the united states now facing major problems,it got itself involved with Iraq,,Afghanistan,and soon North Korea and Iran.in addition to the indoor critical economic situation,increase in the unemployment that reached 9.9% last Jan.,Bankruptcy  proceedings that reached the highest level last month since 2005..according to the The  American Treasury Department: the  U.S. public debt of the United States reached 13 trillion dollars for  the first time, raising a debate on government spending plans.,also we cant close our eyes for the environmental Disaster in the gulf of mexico,this will cost the Bp at least one billion dollars to face this disaster..in addition to the billion of dollars required to cover the war in the middle east { according to the american army,the american troops who commit suicide is higher than those who killed in Iraq} ,and the money paid to israeli army to face Hamas rockets,wich originally paid by the american ppl as taxes.
> it's the time to stop seeing the american governers as angels.it's the time to stop escaping the problems.it's the time for the wise voice in the states to rise.



The United States is hardly puritanical with the meddling we have done throughout the world. no one argues or debates this. the funny thing is you make it sound like these issues are easily resolved if only the wise would step forward. these issues are more complicated than a Gordian knot. thats the problem. when you are faced with a decision based upon the lesser of two evils then you of necessity will get dirty.

If I'm forced to compare the two and choose I will however side with the society that does not believe in blowing up women and children. the society that lets women drive cars, and go to school. the society that prosecutes rapists and child molesters. but you know thats just me.


----------



## doctormomen (Jun 3, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> If I'm forced to compare the two and choose I will however side with the society that does not believe in blowing up women and children. the society that lets women drive cars, and go to school. the society that prosecutes rapists and child molesters. but you know thats just me.



just for your knowledge; there is no blowing up here for woman and children.this only happens where your country messed every thing in iraq for example.here women drives cars and go to school also.the society here definitely do prosecutes the rapist and child molesters.
and since you mentioned the rape ,i think you like to search for it in your society and in your army.and also u may have to review the sexual crimes that your army commited in Abu Ghraib prison in iraq.
i think this will help you 
*40 page summary of Military Recruiter Sexual  Assault, Abuse and Rape of potential recruits*

Rape in the Ranks


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 3, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> just for your knowledge; there is no blowing up here for woman and children.this only happens where your country messed every thing in iraq for example.here women drives cars and go to school also.the society here definitely do prosecutes the rapist and child molesters.
> and since you mentioned the rape ,i think you like to search for it in your society and in your army.and also u may have to review the sexual crimes that your army commited in Abu Ghraib prison in iraq.
> i think this will help you
> *40 page summary of Military Recruiter Sexual  Assault, Abuse and Rape of potential recruits*
> ...


I didn't say abuses don't happen in my country i said when it does we do something about it. no your society gives rapists and child molesters a free pass. marriage of little girls to old men where the man "promises" not to have relations with the little girl till she is older? yeah. the rape of those little girls is well documented. and jack shit is done about it. 

we messed everything up in iraq?  because with sadam huissen in power it was sunshine and roses? the abuses and atrocities of sadam's reign are well documented. 

"blowing up here for woman and children.this only happens where your country messed every thing in iraq for example"-------this gets me the most. are you really trying to say that we are the cause of this? you have no credibility anymore in my mind. you are so blinded by your anti-american views that you can't see that the only potential the middle east has is because of us. we've not been perfect. not by a long shot. but the middle east will be swallowed up by the desert without the US.


----------



## DOMS (Jun 3, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> I didn't say abuses don't happen in my country i said when it does we do something about it. no your society gives rapists and child molesters a free pass



Muslim Fact: A woman was raped by a prominent member of their town.  She went to the authorities and complained.  Since she was besmirching the good name of a prominent member of society, they all took turns raping her.


----------



## doctormomen (Jun 3, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> but the middle east will be swallowed up by the desert without the US.


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 3, 2010)

doctormomen said:


>



other than oil you have no natural resources. none. period. zip. nada. nothing. who buys your oil? we do. when your oil is gone the middle east becomes a blip on the world stage. you go back to riding camels looking for water. look what the UAE is trying to do.  abbu dhabi wants to become the next Vegas. good luck.


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 3, 2010)

DOMS said:


> Muslim Fact: A woman was raped by a prominent member of their town.  She went to the authorities and complained.  Since she was besmirching the good name of a prominent member of society, they all took turns raping her.



And sometimes they kill her in an honor killing. 

The alleged prophet Mohammed was a 53 year old man that married a 7 year old girl and consummated the marriage at 9.

The alleged prophet Mohammed was a p*dophile.

It's called the "Aisha story."


----------



## Dark Geared God (Jun 3, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> other than oil you have no natural resources. none. period. zip. nada. nothing. who buys your oil? we do. when your oil is gone the middle east becomes a blip on the world stage. you go back to riding camels looking for water. look what the UAE is trying to do. abbu dhabi wants to become the next Vegas. good luck.


----------



## lnvanry (Jun 3, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> other than oil you have no natural resources. none. period. zip. nada. nothing. who buys your oil? we do. when your oil is gone the middle east becomes a blip on the world stage. you go back to riding camels looking for water. look what the UAE is trying to do.  abbu dhabi wants to become the next Vegas. good luck.




Oil is only the 2nd most important natural resources next to water...and there are countries (like Israel) that have neither, but we sacrifice much for them still.  


The UAE has already become Vegas (Dubai and Abu Dhabi)...the amount of concentrated wealth there blows any American city out of water.  Everything is bigger, flashier, newer, and even safer than Vegas...minus the gambling of course  They've done a very good job at diversifying their economy...especially compared to the rest of the region.


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 3, 2010)

lnvanry said:


> Oil is only the 2nd most important natural resources next to water...and there are countries (like Israel) that have neither, but we sacrifice much for them still.
> 
> 
> The UAE has already become Vegas (Dubai and Abu Dhabi)...the amount of concentrated wealth there blows any American city out of water.  Everything is bigger, flashier, newer, and even safer than Vegas...minus the gambling of course  They've done a very good job at diversifying their economy...especially compared to the rest of the region.



dubai is nearly bankrupt. and the oil will run out is my point


----------



## lnvanry (Jun 3, 2010)

Dubai is not bankrupt...big brother Abu Dhabi has taken care of them, and Abu Dhabi isn't going to run out of oil in our lifetime.  but you are right about Dubai running out of oil...they've pretty much hit that point already, which is why they had to make an accelerated run to diversify their economy.  They are one of the only locales in the middle east trying to create an economy that is not based on oil.  I commend the effort and vision even though they were a bit too aggressive in financing it.


----------



## Will Brink (Jun 4, 2010)

Mark one for the good guys!

Well, no lie lives forever, and this one seems to be unraveling quickly, due mostly to modern technology: the 'net and cams everywhere. And a medal coming to the last guy down the rope who said "flame on" and put a stop to the nonsense:


From the Times UK:

Israeli commando who shot six passengers in aid convoy in line for medal

(AP Photo/Israel Defence Force)
Clashes between Israeli soldiers and passengers on board the Mavi Marmara
James Hider, Jerusalem and Alexander Christie-Miller, Istanbul The latest on the fallout from the flotilla raid thetimes.co.uk


Six of the nine passengers killed in an Israeli raid on an aid convoy bound for Gaza were shot by a single Israeli commando, who is being considered for a medal of valour for saving his injured comrades as passengers attacked them with clubs, knives and even guns they had taken from downed Navy Seals.

Fresh details of the controversial raid, which has led to accusations of ???piracy??? and ???state terrorism??? being levelled against Israel, and which wrecked its strategic partnership with Turkey, emerged yesterday. There were reports that passengers who attacked the Israeli boarding party had been dragging three captured commandos into the hold of the ship when the shooting broke out.

And a British passenger who witnessed the deadly pre-dawn encounter in international waters said that some of the more peaceful activists on board had tried to protect captured Israeli soldiers being set upon by a hardcore of passengers, most of them believed to be Turks linked to an Islamic charity accused by Israel of having links to extremists.

The Israeli commando who killed six of the passengers of Mavi Marmara, the Turkish ferry owned by the IHH charity, said that he had been the last of 15 soldiers to rappel down the rope from an overhead helicopter on to the decks of the ship, which he described as ???a battlefield???.

Identified for security reasons only as Staff Sergeant S, he said that contrary to initial Israeli Army reports, the shooting had started within minutes as he and his comrades were set upon by a ???mob of mercenaries???.

As he landed on the ship???s top deck, he said he saw three of his superior officers who had landed ahead of him lying wounded, one with a bullet wound to the stomach, another shot in the knee and the third beaten unconscious.

Taking charge, he formed his men in a perimeter around the wounded, pulled his 9mm Glock pistol and opened fire on passengers he accused of shooting at the boarding party with guns taken off the first soldiers, who had been overwhelmed as they landed one by one.

???When I hit the deck, I was immediately attacked by people with bats, metal pipes and axes,??? the sergeant recalled. ???These were without a doubt terrorists. I could see the murderous rage in their eyes and that they were coming to kill us.???

He said he saw one of the passengers holding a seized pistol to another Israeli commando???s head.

His accusation that his assailants were mercenaries was based on the large amounts of cash found on a number of the detained and killed passengers, although other officials have suggested the money was destined to be given to Hamas in Gaza if the convoy succeeded in breaking the Israeli naval blockade.

New footage released by Israel, and apparently filmed by activists before the boarding had started before dawn on Monday, showed an Israeli assault craft full of helmeted commandos pull alongside the Mavi Marmara, where men waving metal pipes and a chain leant overboard to ward them off.

Others were emptying fire hoses at the Israeli boat below, while a stun grenade was dropped into the vessel, exploding among the soldiers.

Some Israeli officials have accused the Turks who attacked them of links to terrorist groups, although it was unclear why, in that case, the soldiers of Flotilla 13, the elite Navy Seals unit involved in the operation, were briefed only to expect peaceful resistance.

The question also remained as to why the passengers, if they were indeed terrorists, did not use deadlier weapons against the approaching naval launches and helicopters hovering overhead.

Alexandra Lort-Phillips, 37, an activist from Hackney, was on the Mavi Marmara when it was stormed and described seeing an Israeli soldier taken down into the stairwell below the deck where the soldiers landed.

???I went down the stairwell and there was a massive crowd of people and lots of shouting,??? she said, after being deported to Istanbul.

???They had got a soldier who had boarded the ship from the roof. There was a sense of ???My god, we???ve got an Israeli soldier???. I don???t think we really knew what we were going to do.???

???I saw a gun being taken. His gunbelt was removed and someone, I don???t know who, ran past me with the weapon and disappeared. They could have shot him but didn???t.??? She said around 25 people were gathered around the soldier, who was held by his legs and stripped to his underwear as he was restrained.

???The women who were there were shouting ???Don???t hurt him???.??? Ms Lort-Phillips denied he was beaten, but said: ???There were obviously some guys there who were extremely agitated by the situation. It is like you???d expect when there???s a fight between men.??? As Israel desperately tried to limit the damage caused by the bloodbath on the high seas, the organisers of the aid flotilla said another boat was due to challenge the blockade and make for Gaza at the weekend.

The Rachel Corrie, an Irish-flagged ship, is named after a young American peace activist who was crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer in 2003 while trying to prevent the army from demolishing a Palestinian home in Gaza. Organisers said it was steaming straight for Gaza with Mairead Maguire, winner of an Irish Nobel Peace Prize, on board.


----------



## DOMS (Jun 4, 2010)

The Rachel Corrie.  A ship named after a dumb ass bitch, full of dumb ass people, going to cross swords with one of the toughest military forces on the planet.

I hope they're also dumb enough to attack the Israelis.  I hope they all die.


----------



## jmorrison (Jun 4, 2010)

And there we have it.

Thread closed.

Score one for democracy and the good guys.


----------



## DOMS (Jun 4, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> And there we have it.
> 
> Thread closed.
> 
> Score one for democracy and the good guys.



Correction, that's twelve (?) dead activists.

Democracy: 12
Ass Monkeys: 0


----------



## jmorrison (Jun 4, 2010)

Honestly, and I know you will nut-shot me on this one, I feel bad for the genuine activists, as they were probably well intentioned (albeit misguided) young people attempting to do what they considered to be a good thing, and I hope that none of them were caught in the crossfire.  I mean, we were all slightly retarded when we were college age.  They deserve an ass-kicking, but I hope none of them were killed.

However, if the only ones killed were the terrorist scum or those knowingly harboring them...then hell yes.  Line em up and knock em down I say.


----------



## maniclion (Jun 4, 2010)

activism is a crucial part of democracy....and it's not retarded to feel for the other side...

I see the reason why Arab's feel cheated and I understand Israel's side of the story....if I could I'd stand in between both sides too and say calm the fuck down and work this out like mature adults.....but the Israeli's are pretty much as obstinate as the Arab's so all you get is hotheaded locking of horns.  It's my view that people who live in desolate arid lands get ornery and like to start shit.  Also hot climates tend to have the most viscious warring going on.  Why do you think we've come up with the phrase Be Cool or Cool it to suggest someone act non-violent....  You know in yourself that when you get hot you get irritable...

I say the solution here is to send a few million Air-conditioning systems over there and see if they don't chill for a while.....


----------



## DOMS (Jun 4, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> Honestly, and I know you will nut-shot me on this one, I feel bad for the genuine activists, as they were probably well intentioned (albeit misguided) young people attempting to do what they considered to be a good thing, and I hope that none of them were caught in the crossfire.  I mean, we were all slightly retarded when we were college age.  They deserve an ass-kicking, but I hope none of them were killed.
> 
> However, if the only ones killed were the terrorist scum or those knowingly harboring them...then hell yes.  Line em up and knock em down I say.



I almost agree with you.  Except when you consider that they could be like this bitch, Rachel Corrie:







If they're like her, they deserve to die too.


----------



## jmorrison (Jun 4, 2010)

You win points for making me hate someone I have never heard of.

That picture alone makes my blood boil lol.


----------



## maniclion (Jun 4, 2010)

DOMS said:


> I almost agree with you.  Except when you consider that they could be like this bitch, Rachel Corrie:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I never understood those Lawrence of Arabia wanna-be's....they need to watch that movie and realize he was trying to level with them, not join in their barbaric ways.

Look at her with all those children acting like a fool....


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 4, 2010)

DOMS said:


> The Rachel Corrie.  A ship named after a dumb ass bitch, full of dumb ass people, going to cross swords with one of the toughest military forces on the planet.



The Israeli IDF military equipment is supported by $2 billion dollars of US taxpayer money per year.  The Israelis have to buy US arms from US arms manufacturers.  

We are fools.


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 4, 2010)

As for Rachel Corrie, 

Anybody will stand against the racist Jewish Zionists has my supported.

And Hezbollah is getting ready for the next confrontation, which I believe will happen in less than 5 years.


----------



## brk_nemesis (Jun 5, 2010)

YouTube Video


----------



## jmorrison (Jun 5, 2010)

Moral of your story?


----------



## DOMS (Jun 5, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> You win points for making me hate someone I have never heard of.
> 
> That picture alone makes my blood boil lol.



Same here.  On the upside, the dumb bitch jumped in front a bulldozer pushing a mountain of dirt and got herself killed.


----------



## DOMS (Jun 5, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> Moral of your story?


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 5, 2010)

^ Is that a $$$$ bill on the surface of the water?


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 5, 2010)

brk_nemesis said:


> YouTube Video



Israeli IDF attacked at soon as they land?

Yes, it's in international waters.

Question:

Is FOX sided with Israeli Jews on this?


----------



## Will Brink (Jun 5, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> Israeli IDF attacked at soon as they land?
> 
> Yes,



Ah, so now that the vids show that as a fact, you and the ilk are now willing to admit who actually attacked who? I guess that's progress.



Big Smoothy said:


> it's in international waters.



Because you  think the term "international waters" is some how a magical place no rules or laws exist pertaining to a country acting in what it considers it's national security?

From International Humanitarian Law:

    quote:

    SECTION II : VISIT AND SEARCH OF MERCHANT VESSELS

    Basic rules

    118. In exercising their legal rights in an international armed conflict at sea, belligerent warships and military aircraft have a right to visit and search merchant vessels outside neutral waters where there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that they are subject to capture.

    119. As an alternative to visit and search, a neutral merchant vessel may, with its consent, be diverted from its declared destination.

    Merchant vessels under convoy of accompanying neutral warships

    120. A neutral merchant vessel is exempt from the exercise of the right of visit and search if it meets the following conditions:

    (a) it is bound for a neutral port;
    (b) it is under the convoy of an accompanying neutral warship of the same nationality or a neutral warship of a State with which the flag State of the merchant vessel has concluded an agreement providing for such convoy;
    (c) the flag State of the neutral warship warrants that the neutral merchant vessel is not carrying contraband or otherwise engaged in activities inconsistent with its neutral status; and
    (d) the commander of the neutral warship provides, if requested by the commander of an intercepting belligerent warship or military aircraft, all information as to the character of the merchant vessel and its cargo as could otherwise be obtained by visit and search.

    Diversion for the purpose of visit and search

    121. If visit and search at sea is impossible or unsafe, a belligerent warship or military aircraft may divert a merchant vessel to an appropriate area or port in order to exercise the right of visit and search. 

You already shown  an anti Israel/anti Jewish bias via your other comments. No  country on the planet with a proper Navy would allow any group of ships to come anywhere near their coast line and would be boarded or sunk, or are you so f-ing stupid you think if the IDF waited for the ships to enter 1' out of international waters they would not have attacked them? 

Obviously, the "peace flotilla" was there to push a confrontation, and they got one. Did a fine job of it too. I'm sure those behind it consider 9 lives worth the cost for the PR score over Israel.


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 5, 2010)

^^^everything will says I agree with. wish i could rep him again


----------



## DOMS (Jun 5, 2010)

I love how the douche bags on the Rachael Corrie were saying that they put video cameras all over the boat to "prove" the Israelis are abusive.  

Too late assholes, the IDF beat you to it and made it clear that you're a bunch of liars and attempted murderers.

Oh, and the crew of the USS* Douche Bag realized that they couldn't pull any shit, so they turned their boat over to the IDF for inspection.



* I know the ship isn't from the US and that Irish ships use the prefix L??, but it just doesn't sound as funny.


----------



## jmorrison (Jun 5, 2010)

Will Brink said:


> Ah, so now that the vids show that as a fact, you and the ilk are now willing to admit who actually attacked who? I guess that's progress.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You must spread rep around before giving it to awesome people.


Will, I did not know this, thank you for the education.


----------



## Little Wing (Jun 5, 2010)

it doesn't make much of a statement for peace when you're beating your fellow man viciously with metal pipes. i have no sympathy for the dead in this case. none, nada, zero.


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 5, 2010)

DOMS said:


> Oh, and the crew of the USS* Douche Bag realized that they couldn't pull any shit, so they turned their boat over to the IDF for inspection.
> 
> 
> 
> * I know the ship isn't from the US and that Irish ships use the prefix L??, but it just doesn't sound as funny.


----------



## seth1031black (Jun 5, 2010)




----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 6, 2010)

We all have our biases.

When Hezbollah and Israel clash again, I'll be hoping Hezbollah hits Israel hard.  Sad to think I'll support an Islamist group, but with Israel, I am.


----------



## Will Brink (Jun 6, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> Sad to think I'll support an Islamist group, .



At least we can agree on that much. More from the peace loving boaters delivering baby food:






YouTube Video











"footage of an interview with one of the ship's passengers for Press TV taken before the Israeli soldiers boarded. In the footage, he tells the interviewer how he twice before tried to become a martyr, or shahid, and then says, "Third time lucky, with the help of God I will be a shahid (martyr)."

We can only hope he got his wish.


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 6, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> We all have our biases.
> 
> When Hezbollah and Israel clash again, I'll be hoping Hezbollah hits Israel hard.  Sad to think I'll support an Islamist group, but with Israel, I am.



everything DOMS has said about you is correct


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 6, 2010)

^ Try to stick to the topic at hand.  

Do you believe, like Joseph Smith did, that people live on the Moon and dress like quakers?


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 6, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> ^ Try to stick to the topic at hand.
> 
> Do you believe, like Joseph Smith did, that people live on the Moon and dress like quakers?



 this is sticking to the topic? you are a total TROLL.


----------



## doctormomen (Jun 6, 2010)

YouTube Video


----------



## Will Brink (Jun 7, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> YouTube Video



Glad I watched that. Confirmed for me ever more what a bunch loony toons morons were on those ships. Thanx for posting that. Keep up the fine!


----------



## brk_nemesis (Jun 7, 2010)

^ yup... those people with tear drop tattoos are the best type of people to interview to confirm any sort of truth.........


----------



## maniclion (Jun 7, 2010)

Yeah that guy and a retired Army Colonel from Hawaii were in the news here...

How did that guy go from saving sea turtles to the Gaza Strip?  I do like his World Citizen passport though....


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 7, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> this is sticking to the topic? you are a total TROLL.



It's Tit-for-Tat, Bio.

Do you wear that magical underwear?


----------



## jmorrison (Jun 7, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> ^ Try to stick to the topic at hand.
> 
> Do you believe, like Joseph Smith did, that people live on the Moon and dress like quakers?



-10 Troll points

Usually you are a better troll than this.  Getting sloppy in your old age.


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 7, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> It's Tit-for-Tat, Bio.
> 
> Do you wear that magical underwear?



tit for tat? when have i ever followed you into another thread and asked you questions totally unrelated? keep it up though. i want everyone here to recognize you as a troll. people don't listen to your posts here. they don't respect you, and those times that you may even stumble upon something intelligent people are reluctant to listen or agree with you because of your troll reputation. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


----------



## DOMS (Jun 8, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> keep it up though. i want everyone here to recognize you as a troll. people don't listen to your posts here. they don't respect you



For those that haven't read his crap:



Big Smoothy said:


> I support the insurgents.  I support road-side bombs.  I support  snipers.
> 
> The Americans in Iraq are fascists.
> 
> ...


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 8, 2010)

^ Thanks for the reminder, DOMS.

I believe, like Kissinger: 

That: "Military men are dumb stupid animals, to be used as tools for foreign policy."


Military men are dumb, rejects.  They are stupid and uneducated.


----------



## tucker01 (Jun 8, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> ^ Thanks for the reminder, DOMS.
> 
> I believe, like Kissinger:
> 
> ...



And Idiots are people who cast a belief on the whole without knowing each individual.


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 8, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> ^ Thanks for the reminder, DOMS.
> 
> I believe, like Kissinger:
> 
> ...



and you wonder why I've stopped responding to your posts? keep it up. this makes things so much easier


----------



## tucker01 (Jun 8, 2010)

How about you go tell all those dumb rejects from wars past, that gave you this freedom.  Where you stand.

I truly could care less what you post.  But that post is utterly disgusting. You are a pathetic troll.


----------



## Will Brink (Jun 8, 2010)

IainDaniel said:


> How about you go tell all those dumb rejects from wars past, that gave you this freedom.  Where you stand.



To their face not hiding behind the anonymity of the 'net? The 'net gives people like him big brass ones. 



IainDaniel said:


> I truly could care less what you post.  But that post is utterly disgusting. You are a pathetic troll.



You + mod + trolls = 

If he's just an A-hole, that's one thing (which he is) but if you as a mod have decided he's simply a troll, then use them thar mod powers.

Would you tolerate him or another calling someone a nigger?


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 8, 2010)

will brink said:


> to their face not hiding behind the anonymity of the 'net? The 'net gives people like him big brass ones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



+1


----------



## maniclion (Jun 8, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> ^ Thanks for the reminder, DOMS.
> 
> I believe, like Kissinger:
> 
> ...


I'd say about 1 in 3 military personnel fit that description having witnessed it first hand.  But they also say 1 in 3 kids don't graduate so it would seem that this is the norm for the civilian community as well.......I graduated in the top 5 in High School with honors, then from military training as #1 and from college with honors as #1....I continue my education....yeah I didn't stick with the military because I am not a stick to the rules type of person.  Yeah there are grunts, deck hands, toilet polishers, swabby's, in the military, but there are grunt workers in the civilian world too.....Doesn't mean their sacrifice for their country should be seen as an expenditure on a checklist only.  At least they were brave enough to put their neck out for a cause, even if you don't think the cause was worth it.....


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 8, 2010)

maniclion said:


> I'd say about 1 in 3 military personnel fit that description having witnessed it first hand.  But they also say 1 in 3 kids don't graduate so it would seem that this is the norm for the civilian community as well.......



I agree.

I noted Kissinger's statement because in the US there is a lot of warrior like military worship not only in the mainstream media but with military families themselves.

I recently talked with a wife of a person in Afghanistan and she directly stated he was protecting Americans' feedom.

I ask here how, being that he was in Afghanistan.  She could not answer.

The concept of "freedom" in the US, no matter how you define it, is based on Constitutional precdents (rulings) and federal, state, and local law.

The military does not interview with it, nor enforce the laws, or the curtailing of these "freedom" laws that have happened recently.


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 8, 2010)

IainDaniel said:


> How about you go tell all those dumb rejects from wars past, that gave you this freedom.  Where you stand.



The wars past are WWII and the war of 1812.

The rest did not protect freedom:

French & Indian War - no
Spanish-American War - no
Invading Hawaii over sugar and taxes - no
WWI - no
Korea - no
Vietnam - no
Panama - no
Persian Gulf I - no
Persian Gulf II - no

Look at history.

As I noted above, the concept of "freedom" is based upon law, not the military.



> I truly could care less what you post.  But that post is utterly disgusting. You are a pathetic troll.



Not a troll.  Not at all. Somebod quoted that statement.  Fair enough.

Kissinger's statement makes perfect sense. He's never retracted that statement.

And Mr. Will Brink.  It is YOU, that is using that word.  And your point fingers?


----------



## theCaptn' (Jun 9, 2010)

gotta love dem jews!


----------



## maniclion (Jun 9, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> The wars past are WWII and the war of 1812.
> 
> The rest did not protect freedom:
> 
> ...


Don't  you know freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose?


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 9, 2010)

maniclion said:


> Don't  you know freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose?



Please clarify.

I don't understand.

There are different kinds and forms of "Freedom."

I highly value it.

Also, the definition of freedom - from a government perspective - changes over time.

From the Alien & Sedition Act of 1798 (freedom of speech) to the recent government usurpation of freedom via the Patriot Acts and "War" on Drugs.


----------



## jmorrison (Jun 9, 2010)

maniclion said:


> Don't  you know freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose?



Nothing, I mean *nothing* honey if it ain't *free*


----------



## maniclion (Jun 9, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> Please clarify.
> 
> I don't understand.
> 
> ...


You're so square man....you been subjected to left over agent orange or something over there in 'Nam?

George Hanson:"They'll talk to ya and talk to ya and talk to ya about individual freedom. But they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em."
Billy: Well, it don't make 'em runnin' scared. 
George Hanson: No, it makes 'em dangerous. Buh, neeh! Neeh! Neeh! Neeh! Swamp!


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 9, 2010)

Nobody wants to discuss the topic.

^ I'm square.  Cool.  Back in the 60s man......


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 9, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> Nobody wants to discuss the topic.
> 
> .



 having trouble getting people to play with you BS? guess everyone realizes you are a troll


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 9, 2010)

^ I'm not a troll.

Troll means: Total Rubbish Online.

I don't troll, I just discuss things in this section.


----------



## DOMS (Jun 9, 2010)

"You must spread some Reputation around before negging Big Smoothy again.  Yeah, he's a douche, but you have to wait your turn."


----------



## bio-chem (Jun 9, 2010)

DOMS said:


> "You must spread some Reputation around before negging Big Smoothy again.  Yeah, he's a douche, but you have to wait your turn."



hahahhahha


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 9, 2010)

DOMS said:


> "You must spread some Reputation around before negging Big Smoothy again.  Yeah, he's a douche, but you have to wait your turn."



I don't care about greens and reds.  I don't check them.  I think it's silly.


----------



## Will Brink (Jun 13, 2010)

Well here is a full length vid "smuggled" out:

Israeli Attack on the Mavi Marmara // Raw Footage on Vimeo

The festivities don't start 'till min 35, so fast forward. If people want to see exactly what happened from the "peace lovers" side, here it is.

This vid is supposed to be some form of "proof" as to the evil IDF, when it shows nothing but restraint on their part. 

Guy babbling about the IDF having a list with pics of who they should be focusing on is bad why? That's SOP for everyone and anyone. 

Probably a bad idea to have their paint balls full of red paint from a PR perspective, but perhaps psychological warfare? You look down and see a mass of red and think you have been shot and give up the fight? 

I hate to do it, but you have to give credit where it's due, even to the enemy: the organizers of this "peace" flotilla out maneuvered the Israelies here. By attacking the soldiers with "non weapons" like sticks, chains, etc, they forced the IDF into a deadly response at some point, making them - in the eyes of the already biased and ill informed world - look like the bad guys. 

The people on the boats were well prepared for the confrontation and obviously had a specific plan, which worked (as far as I can tell) exactly as they planned it to. 

Had they met the IDF with "weapons" they would have been toast and lost the PR war, and they knew it. This was no, grab some sticks and what's lying around and "defend" yourself, this was a well designed plan and strategy, and it worked well. Don't know if they planned for, or even cared about, the deaths on both sides (again, we have vid from the people on the boat saying they hoped "Allah Willing" they would become martyr on this trip) but from their POV, 9 lives for their 'cause' is a small price to pay no doubt. 

Ever seen so many people cameras on a boat? Me neither.


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jun 13, 2010)

^ Thanks Will.

"Enemy?"

The enemy is Israeli Jewish Zionists, IMO.

To each their own though.


----------



## Curt James (Aug 13, 2010)

*Edit:* My bad. I misinterpreted that entirely. doctormomen had clipped the attribution off a post he replied to. I thought he was saying he was an atheist, but he was replying _to _an atheist. 

_Never mind. _

In other news...

I deleted a bunch of mean-spirited _crap _in several of your threads in Open Chat, doctormomen. You'll find yourself about 20 posts light compared to about an hour or so ago.


----------



## independent (Aug 13, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> ^ Thanks Will.
> 
> "Enemy?"
> 
> ...



The only enemy to our country is the ignorance that you and many other people are infected with.


----------



## benjani1 (Dec 17, 2010)

big slaps on the back for DOMS , its good to hear someone NOT take the usual old anti semetic view point . Israel has a write to defend and strike at people they deem as a risk . America does it all the time , plus Israel is surrounded by hostile countries . Having spent over a year there working , i can tell you that israelis are some of the fairest , genuinly caring people . they have worked very hard to turn it into a powerful country . lots of ploughing , irrigating the land , practically turning the land into a usefull place . From personall experience most arabs , want to complain and fight . Little wing - why so angry ?


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 17, 2010)

bigmoe65 said:


> The only enemy to our country is the ignorance that you and many other people are infected with.



you cannot give reputation to the same post twice.

apparently 4 months later I still like your comment


----------



## Big Smoothy (Dec 17, 2010)

benjani1 said:


> big slaps on the back for DOMS , its good to hear someone NOT take the usual old anti semetic view point . Israel has a write to defend and strike at people they deem as a risk . America does it all the time , plus Israel is surrounded by hostile countries . Having spent over a year there working , i can tell you that israelis are some of the fairest , genuinly caring people . they have worked very hard to turn it into a powerful country . lots of ploughing , irrigating the land , practically turning the land into a usefull place . From personall experience most arabs , want to complain and fight . Little wing - why so angry ?



Nice try...but...you failed.

Many Israeli Jews are not even Semitic....but the Palestinians are.

Tell me about 1956, 1967, and 1973, and the Oslo Peace Accords.

Lot of banter, but little facts.


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 17, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> Nice try...but...you failed.
> 
> Many Israeli Jews are not even Semitic....but the Palestinians are.
> 
> ...



The way you choose to twist facts is astonishing.


----------



## Dark Geared God (Dec 17, 2010)




----------



## Big Smoothy (Dec 17, 2010)

^^ BIO-CHEM I didn't twist facts.

I just listed them.


----------



## DOMS (Dec 17, 2010)

Source: Wikipedia. The emphasis is mine.

In linguistics and ethnology, Semitic (from the Biblical "Shem", Hebrew: שם‎, translated as "name", Arabic: ساميّ‎) was first used to refer to a language family of largely Middle Eastern origin, now called the Semitic languages.Akkadian, Amharic, Arabic, Aramaic, Ge'ez, *Hebrew*, Maltese, Phoenician, Tigre and Tigrinya This family includes the ancient and modern forms of  among others.


----------



## maniclion (Dec 17, 2010)

We had an Isreali kid in high school, I thought he was Arab for the longest time...couldn't tell the difference...


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 17, 2010)

DOMS said:


> Source: Wikipedia. The emphasis is mine.
> 
> In linguistics and ethnology, Semitic (from the Biblical "Shem", Hebrew: שם‎, translated as "name", Arabic: ساميّ‎) was first used to refer to a language family of largely Middle Eastern origin, now called the Semitic languages.Akkadian, Amharic, Arabic, Aramaic, Ge'ez, *Hebrew*, Maltese, Phoenician, Tigre and Tigrinya This family includes the ancient and modern forms of  among others.



you are good people DOMS, but problem is BS is a douche and even trying with that guy is a waste of time


----------



## Big Smoothy (Dec 18, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> ....problem is BS is a douche and even trying with that guy is a waste of time



Good, then please don't respond to my posts like you just did above.


----------



## DOMS (Dec 18, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> you are good people DOMS, but problem is BS is a douche and even trying with that guy is a waste of time



I didn't post it for Big Douchey. I posted it for anyone reading this thread so that they'll know he's full of shit.


----------



## Ejams (Dec 18, 2010)

I actually studied the Arab - Israeli conflict when I did my Political History Major at Uni & I'll tell u 1 thing. Israel is famous for attacking & killing unarmed civilians all the time, its their bread & butter. Israel is the biggest terrorist organization in the world. I don't know who's wrong or right, but 2 say the Muslims kill women & children is very biased as Israel has killed far more women, children & civilians than all the Muslim countries combined.


----------



## DOMS (Dec 18, 2010)

Ejams said:


> I actually studied the Arab - Israeli conflict when I did my Political History Major at Uni & I'll tell u 1 thing. Israel is famous for attacking & killing unarmed civilians all the time, its their bread & butter. Israel is the biggest terrorist organization in the world. I don't know who's wrong or right, but 2 say the Muslims kill women & children is very biased as Israel has killed far more women, children & civilians than all the Muslim countries combined.



Your grammar belies the notion that you're a major in anything.  Much less informed about the Israeli / Palestinian conflict.

"Israel is the biggest terrorist organization in the world."

Truly, you know nothing.

"but 2 say the Muslims kill women & children is very biased"

Two years back the PLO fired a rocket into Israeli territory. The rocket hit a preschool, killing two children and the grand mother of one of those children. Instead of saying that it was an accident and that they were sorry, they claimed it as a great victory.

Really, help bring up the average IQ of the Internet by shutting off your computer.


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 18, 2010)

DOMS said:


> Your grammar belies the notion that you're a major in anything.
> Really, help bring up the average IQ of the Internet by shutting off your computer.


----------



## doctormomen (Dec 19, 2010)

Ejams said:


> I actually studied the Arab - Israeli conflict when I did my Political History Major at Uni & I'll tell u 1 thing. Israel is famous for attacking & killing unarmed civilians all the time, its their bread & butter. Israel is the biggest terrorist organization in the world. I don't know who's wrong or right, but 2 say the Muslims kill women & children is very biased as Israel has killed far more women, children & civilians than all the Muslim countries combined.


----------



## Big Smoothy (Dec 19, 2010)

^ Good to see you back, doctor momen.


----------



## Ejams (Dec 21, 2010)

There are many examples of the Israeli defence force shooting, killing & bombing schools, hospitals & child care centres. So just stop lying. I don't have 2 prove anything 2 u but if u want 2 see my diploma's I can show u. P.S- u are attacking me as a person just because I made a point u didn't like, that is proof of ur lack of intelligence not mine.


----------



## DOMS (Dec 21, 2010)

Ejams said:


> There are many examples of the Israeli defence force shooting, killing & bombing schools, hospitals & child care centres. So just stop lying. I don't have 2 prove anything 2 u but if u want 2 see my diploma's I can show u. P.S- u are attacking me as a person just because I made a point u didn't like, that is proof of ur lack of intelligence not mine.



Nothing you have said has so far been of substance. At least I related a story that backs up my point.

As for the Israelis attacking say civilian locations, don't you think (ha!) that it has to do with the fact that the Palestinians love to launch attacks from schools and hospitals?

When was the last time an Israeli strapped bombs to himself and ran into a location where there were no soldiers and blew it up? The Palestinians rarely attack soldiers compared to how often they attack _civilians_. 

You can question whether or not a hospital was housing militants or not, but you cannot question whether a shopping center with no military personnel in it was targeted because it was full of civilians.

I didn't put you down so much for you point (which is uninformed), but because you write like the worst of Internet posters. You're the definition of Internet retarded.

When I read your posts, it feels like someone is shitting on my eyes.


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 21, 2010)

DOMS said:


> Nothing you have said has so far been of substance. At least I related a story that backs up my point.
> 
> As for the Israelis attacking say civilian locations, don't you think (ha!) that it has to do with the fact that the Palestinians love to launch attacks from schools and hospitals?
> 
> ...



DOMS some guys will stare at the sun and tell everyone around them that it is night time. Ejams is one of those guys. I must say I applaud your effort for pointing out his blatant twisting of the facts though.


----------



## DOMS (Dec 21, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> DOMS some guys will stare at the sun and tell everyone around them that it is night time. Ejams is one of those guys. I must say I applaud your effort for pointing out his blatant twisting of the facts though.



I try, but I have to use Charmin on my eyes every time I do.

Do I think that the Israelis are saints? Of course not.  I do believe that they're showing incredible restraint. If Mexico started firing rockets into the US, we'd have bombed them out of existence in the first couple of days.

Also, I view it this way: The Israelis are a productive, decent culture. The Muslims...they have no redeeming value.


----------



## bio-chem (Dec 21, 2010)

DOMS said:


> I try, but I have to use Charmin on my eyes every time I do.
> 
> Do I think that the Israelis are saints? Of course not.  I do believe that they're showing incredible restraint. If Mexico started firing rockets into the US, we'd have bombed them out of existence in the first couple of days.
> 
> Also, I view it this way: The Israelis are a productive, decent culture. The Muslims...they have no redeeming value.



I'm still waiting to see a list of muslim accomplishments over the last 1000 years. I'm not sure MINO is working hard enough on that


----------



## DOMS (Dec 21, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> I'm still waiting to see a list of muslim accomplishments over the last 1000 years. I'm not sure MINO is working hard enough on that



I found one! A burka made for women patients.  I'm not making this shit up.








She looks like she's from the CDC.


----------



## DOMS (Dec 21, 2010)

Oh, and quick!  Someone kill her!  I can see her hands.  That's Muslim porn!


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## benjani1 (Dec 22, 2010)

DOMS - you ARE right to stand up for Israel . Unfortunately you are surrounded mostly by   " Numpties " on this ocassion . Bit like Israel . Dont worry bout it . keep on looking ahead and leave the " Arm chair " racism to the haters , after all if there was no Israel they would find some other peeps to hate . SHALOM .


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> I'm still waiting to see a list of muslim accomplishments over the last 1000 years. I'm not sure MINO is working hard enough on that



In medical research they are quite dominant.  LAU | Executive Officers | Dr. Kamal Badr  This guy was my attending at Emory during my nephrology rotation after he left Harvard.  Lili Farrokh-Siar, MD , a female muslim is at the forefront of research in aptosis , Shahrokh C. Bagheri D.M.D., M.D., F.A.C.S. - Atlanta Oral and Facial Surgery who is a briliant researcher oral maxillofacial surgeon here at Emory the list can go on for pages and pages..... Just read any medical journals and you'll see that many many muslims are contributing to significant advances in medicine. 

It's not the religion that impairs them, once they escape their tribal impoverished backward countries that conveniently hijak islam for their sordid, mysoginistic purposes, these muslims thrive and are productive in scientific advances like anyone else.  I don't put these muslims in the same catagory as their backward bretheren anymore than scientists who are christians in the same catagory as the "young" earthers in this country....


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## GearsMcGilf (Dec 22, 2010)

The question I always ponder is this.  Who are the real muslims?  Are the fundamentalists in the backward countries, who believe in the more radical version of islam, the real muslims?  Or, are the watered down, secularized muslims who've lived in the west for at least a generation the real ones?  Both claim they represent the true version of islam.  I don't know, and as a nonmuzzie, I don't think it's my call any more than it's on me to accept that it's a religion of peace when I see just the opposite everytime I turn on the TV.


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## DOMS (Dec 22, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> The question I always ponder is this.  Who are the real muslims?  Are the fundamentalists in the backward countries, who believe in the more radical version of islam, the real muslims?  Or, are the watered down, secularized muslims who've lived in the west for at least a generation the real ones?  Both claim they represent the true version of islam.  I don't know, and as a nonmuzzie, I don't think it's my call any more than it's on me to accept that it's a religion of peace when I see just the opposite everytime I turn on the TV.



I think this sums it up pretty well:


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> The question I always ponder is this.  Who are the real muslims?  Are the fundamentalists in the backward countries, who believe in the more radical version of islam, the real muslims?  Or, are the watered down, secularized muslims who've lived in the west for at least a generation the real ones?  Both claim they represent the true version of islam.  I don't know, and as a nonmuzzie, I don't think it's my call any more than it's on me to accept that it's a religion of peace when I see just the opposite everytime I turn on the TV.



There are 1.3 billion muslims, if a majority subscribed to the radical thinking we would all be dead.   

When moderate muslims like the Cordoba House tries to propagate their message ( gender equality and interfaith tolerance) we trash them and tell them they have no right to build in New York City.  They represent everything al quada and the wahabis hate.  Heck, these are the guys we want on our side.   My country China,  Suni sects allow for female Imans, how incredibly progressive and anti- misogynistic but no one knows about it.  It's all about education.  The same reason you guys don't hear about the baptist christian terrorists NLFT terrorizing the Indian continant.  I can tell you in  my home country china , our   media blasts news about their terroristic activities all the time since they hate christians ( after the christian led Taiping rebellion almost wiped out the south east population.) .


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## DOMS (Dec 22, 2010)

bandaidwoman said:


> When moderate muslims like the Cordoba House tries to propagate their message ( gender equality and interfaith tolerance) we trash them and tell them they have no right to build in New York City.  They represent everything al quada and the wahabis hate.


Yes, the freakin' angels. They want to force in a Muslim centre where almost none of the locals want it. Yes, their message of _understanding _and _respecting others_ is _so_ clear.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

As an ex new- yorker the cordoba house was being built 2- 3 blocks away from the world trade center  ( equivalent to miles in the suburb culture) , founded by a sufi,  a sect that doesn't  believe in jihad ( which is why the Bosnian sufi muslims never launched a jihad against the serbs who slaughtered them) in the garment district which  is a already Little Syria  and moslty muslim.  .   

That's what I mean, you american demonize the moderate muslims, it was just logical to build this cordoba house in a persian neighborhood, just like we would not build a buddist temple in Little Italy, it would be in China town.  *And by the way, there is a real mosque on ground zero that was being rebuilt at the same time, why no protest?*

I  also think you americans forget this country is a republic, not a democracy, it's government rests on the constitutional mandate to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority, which is why it is the greatest country in the world.


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## GearsMcGilf (Dec 22, 2010)

LOL.  Yes, the cordoba house and their planned trophy mosque by ground zero.  I guess I misspoke.  Not _all_ of the muslims that come to this country are of the watered down secular brand.  Yes, those radical christians are one hell of a global threat.  I'm sure they are wreaking just as much havoc all over the globe as radical muslims, but the media is just covering for them.  

It don't think it is any coincidence that just about every area in the world where there is conflict nowadays seems to involve Muslims that can not get along with their nonmuslim neighbours.  Lots of religious tension out there as well; allways seems to involve Christians & Muslims, Jews & Muslims, or Hindus & Muslims.  No pattern there of course.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

It's interesting when the Christian Serbs were slaughtering the Muslim Bosnians it was labelled as a ethnic conflict, not a religious massacre.

Once again, media spin.  

In my home country, the largest in the world, most of our conflicts have nothing to do with Islam, it's minorities  lobbying for nationhood, human rights, and torturing and capturing christian missionaries who still remind the red giant of the Taiping Rebellion.


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## maniclion (Dec 22, 2010)

I worked next to some Egyptian dudes who used to hire a few muslims friends children who came to attend UH, I knew a few of them and we'd play soccer after work.  One was a member of one of the royal family of Malaysia he was fairly normal college kid he'd smoke weed with us, go out to pick up girls at the clubs(but not drink), only weird thing about him was he had to use restrooms where it was lockable and had a sink since Muslims have to wash their ass with water after taking a dump....The other guy I became friends with was from Morocco, he was a dread lock wearing weed smoking pimp, he neve drank either but he smoked all day long and would always hook up with the hottest chicks.....


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> It don't think it is any coincidence that just about every area in the world where there is conflict nowadays seems to involve Muslims that can not get along with their nonmuslim neighbours.  Lots of religious tension out there as well; allways seems to involve Christians & Muslims, Jews & Muslims, or Hindus & Muslims.  No pattern there of course.



Think about it, most of these countries are marginal countries in terms of poverty, ethnic tribal mentalities, unequal distribution of resources etc. all of which contribute to strife,.  Religion, for good or bad, has always been a perfect avenue for directing that conflict. Unfortunately, these countries are mostly muslim, *then take Serbia, also a marginal country with tribal tensions, except there, the majority is christian*.  I don't blame christianity for their behavior.  Then look at India, which is a hodge podge of hinduism, christianity and muslim.  You have christian and muslim terrorists.  The poor pacifistic Hindus just get slaughtered.

Afganistan is mountainous and isolates tribal identities, has almost no natural resources but opium and now the new lithium mines, it would still be fucked up without islam.  They would probably still be using persian gods to slaughter each other if islam had never made it there.


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## maniclion (Dec 22, 2010)

bandaidwoman said:


> Think about it, most of these countries are marginal countries in terms of poverty, ethnic tribal mentalities, unequal distribution of resources etc. all of which contribute to strife,.  Religion, for good or bad, has always been a perfect avenue for directing that conflict. Unfortunately, these countries are mostly muslim, *then take Serbia, also a marginal country with tribal tensions, except there, the majority is christian*.  I don't blame christianity for their behavior.  Then look at India, which is a hodge podge of hinduism, christianity and muslim.  You have christian and muslim terrorists.  The poor pacifistic Hindus just get slaughtered.
> 
> Afganistan is mountainous and isolates tribal identities, has almost no natural resources but opium and now the new lithium mines, it would still be fucked up without islam.  They would probably still be using persian gods to slaughter each other if islam had never made it there.


I just think about how much worse of a problem the Middle East would be if Islam hadn't brought a lot of those tribes together.  It would be another Africa with horrible atrocities
we've seen over the last 50 years there....Thing is a majority of those African people are Christian, and up north more Muslim..


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## bio-chem (Dec 22, 2010)

bandaidwoman said:


> I  also think you americans forget this country is a republic, not a democracy, it's government rests on the constitutional mandate to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority, which is why it is the greatest country in the world.



Us Americans, are very aware of it being a republic and not a democracy, and the minority has more freedom here in the USA than in any other country in the world. your welcome. another thing, you're american. you live here, you vote here, you pay taxes here. you're american. the thing i've always thought is off about you is your desire to throw around your ethnic background, and where else in the world you've lived as if it somehow sets you apart from "American" yet it doesn't mean crap. you're american. same way as I am. 
I'm bilingual and have lived outside this hemisphere yet there is no reason to throw it around like I'm special or have some amazing insight no one else could possibly have into the socio/economic/political world.


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## Big Smoothy (Dec 22, 2010)

Bandaid woman, thoughtful and insightful comments.


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## Ejams (Dec 22, 2010)

I'm not going 2 argue with u. If I was 2 type the facts of Israeli terrorism, I'd be here all night. So I'll just guide anybody interested. Just Google Israeli war crimes or Israel breaking humanitarian laws or how many times has Israel broken the ?Geneva convention? Now I'm going back 2 pump weights, leave me alone bitches.


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## maniclion (Dec 23, 2010)

Ejams said:


> I'm not going 2 argue with u. If I was 2 type the facts of Israeli terrorism, I'd be here all night. So I'll just guide anybody interested. Just Google Israeli war crimes or Israel breaking humanitarian laws or how many times has Israel broken the ?Geneva convention? Now I'm going back 2 pump weights, leave me alone bitches.


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## Ejams (Dec 23, 2010)

U sure love 2 hide Muslim achievements. Muslims built & taught in the worlds 1st university, they invented algebra, the started modern day science. They where the 1st people to use street lights, some 300 years before they appeared in Europe. The financial system used in the U.S 2day is based on the work of Abu Khaldoun, a famous Muslim mathematician.The worlds leading brain & heart surgeons are Muslim. The Muslims where the 1st people to have an organisation to look after the poor & widowed. There is much much more but I'm so sick of this argument, look it up yourself.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 24, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> Us Americans, are very aware of it being a republic and not a democracy, and the minority has more freedom here in the USA than in any other country in the world. your welcome. another thing, you're american. you live here, you vote here, you pay taxes here. you're american. the thing i've always thought is off about you is your desire to throw around your ethnic background, and where else in the world you've lived as if it somehow sets you apart from "American" yet it doesn't mean crap. you're american. same way as I am.
> I'm bilingual and have lived outside this hemisphere yet there is no reason to throw it around like I'm special or have some amazing insight no one else could possibly have into the socio/economic/political world.




Actually, as a dual citizen who ventures back and forth all the time  I am as much chinese as american , and I am very proud that I am both a chinese national and american national, i am a minority because you cant do that anymore......and I think I am only allowed to do so because my dad pulled strings while he was still in Air AMerica.(cia).  For the record, due to my strange unplacable accent I am labelled as foreigner everywhere I go here in Georgia.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 24, 2010)

Ejams said:


> The worlds leading brain & heart surgeons are Muslim. .



Here at EMory University the neurosurgeons considered to be some of the best in the world are Lebanese. I have noticed that 3 years in a row the chief neurosurgical residents ( nominated by their peers to be best in the neurosurgical residency) have all been from Lebanon.

http://www.issamawad.com/honors_and_recognitions.htm

This guy was a Tindal scholar here at Emory, incredibly world wide famous ( Susie Tindal was a neurosurgeon here who perfected transsphenoidal pituitary surgery.)


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## bio-chem (Dec 24, 2010)

bandaidwoman said:


> Here at EMory University the neurosurgeons considered to be some of the best in the world are Lebanese. I have noticed that 3 years in a row the chief neurosurgical residents ( nominated by their peers to be best in the neurosurgical residency) have all been from Lebanon.
> 
> Professor Issam A. Awad MD
> 
> This guy was a Tindal scholar here at Emory, incredibly world wide famous ( Susie Tindal was a neurosurgeon here who perfected transsphenoidal pituitary surgery.)



and educated in English speaking countries. his life has been here in the west from the moment he left high school. I wonder why?


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## Big Smoothy (Dec 24, 2010)

Ejams said:


> U sure love 2 hide Muslim achievements. Muslims built & taught in the worlds 1st university, they invented algebra, the started modern day science. They where the 1st people to use street lights, some 300 years before they appeared in Europe. The financial system used in the U.S 2day is based on the work of Abu Khaldoun, a famous Muslim mathematician.The worlds leading brain & heart surgeons are Muslim. The Muslims where the 1st people to have an organisation to look after the poor & widowed. There is much much more but I'm so sick of this argument, look it up yourself.



I personally don't consider past muslim achievements to be relevant to anything about the religion, and what is going on with Islam today.

Same as Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, and other religions.

Achievements of people, that just happened to follow a particular religion is not relevant to me.

What IS relevant, is what this book called the Quran advocates, and being considered the "direct word of god" has seriously screwed up the minds of over 1.2 billion people on this Earth.

I've worked with muslims, becamse friends a 2 and have talked with them about their beliefs and Quran. 

It's horsesh*t.


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## doctormomen (Dec 25, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> I personally don't consider past muslim achievements to be relevant to anything about the religion, and what is going on with Islam today.



Well.. if you allow me BS , i disagree with you.

Ejames is right ,the past Muslims were the Pioneers in most of the fields and they were the first to put the basis of the Most sciences.

and as a Muslim i can say that these achievements were very much related to the religion..why ??
its very simple..

Muslims at these ages were very close to the teachings of islam.
the first word of the Qur'an revealed to the prophet was " Read".
the Qur'an insists in many verses on the importance of thinking and learning.
the prophet Mohamed(PBUH) said " Ask for science,even if it was in China "

So what i want to say is that Muslims were in certain ages the Leaders of the World,they Guided the human being to what we r in today,and that's becoz we were very close to the Qur'an and we were taking it as the source in making laws.but today in muslim countries most of our laws are of foreign origin.

Today Muslims are out of the science race becoz all of our Dictator governments became less caring to science and mostly caring on how to stay stick on their chairs as presidents,Those Dictators who are supported by the US policy as they get alot of benefits from this regardless to our suffers.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 25, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> and educated in English speaking countries. his life has been here in the west from the moment he left high school. I wonder why?



You follow the money, plain and simple. Second, most americans are not bilingual and can't qualify to train in a superior fellowship program in Lebanon or other countries for that matter because they can't speak another language.  AS for the money, many will flock to china and India where their technical  univeristies make MIT look like daycare. *Third, he was probably a reject like me.  University of Taiwan and two other major chinese universities rejected me but dartmouth, stanford, and cornell dididnt.  Sometimes it is much more competative in our own countries than here. *

Third,  my point was the religion, just pointing out many, many muslim researchers and scientists are productive and contribute to science but westerners dont realize how imbedded they are into our own R and D, I can't stop bumping into at them research conferences.  It's not the religion, its the environment.  People on this forum keep mixing the two up.


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## DOMS (Dec 25, 2010)

bandaidwoman said:


> You follow the money, plain and simple.



Completely ignoring biochem's point. Nice.




bandaidwoman said:


> Second, most americans are not bilingual



Which has nothing to do with the the topic of Muslims not inventing or creating much of anything in 1500 years.



bandaidwoman said:


> many will flock to china and India where their technical  univeristies make MIT look like daycare.



Bitter about Muslims not doing jack in regards to inventing or creating anything, and bitching about it in a passive aggressive way?  Check.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 25, 2010)

DOMS said:


> Completely ignoring biochem's point. Nice.



nope, most of us study in america because of better funding (dartmouth gave me 100 grand) and we come from countries ( lebanon is very competative like taiwan) where we can't compete with our uber nerdy compatriots.






> Which has nothing to do with the the topic of Muslims not inventing or creating much of anything in 1500 years.



*In medicine, almost all research is creative and inventive and there are many muslims doing the research and inventing that ignoramuses don't bother to look up.*  I have just given you a small taste of their capabilities and innovativeness in medicine, you are completely ignoring it.

Let's start with my ex-collegue, Kamal Badr  MD, why don't you look up how his research has contributed to the recent advances in glomerulonephritis? *He holds at least three  patents? *(We were sad to lose him but lebanon university gave him better pay so he went back to his country)  How does this not constitute creative and inventive?  Oh wait, it kills xenophobes that so many foreigners might be so iimportant in medical advances in this country?

So what were you saying muslims have not invented or created anything in 1500 yrs.  I guess his 2006 patent does not count.

How about (gasp an Iranian muslim !)  Kavah Kajavih, also an ex collegue of mine http://www.gaspine.com/about/bio_KevahKhajavi.php who is a top neurosurgical reasearcher.   At least the Falcons and Walter Reed  don't give a crap that he is muslim.

Then there is Hassan sayegh, who was my cardiology fellow, a former NIH research award recipient.http://www.piedmontheart.org/phy/Page.asp?PageID=PHY001171

Then there is a egyptian muslim Kamal Mansour MDthe cardiothoracic surgeon here who has had over 20 research publications( all original medical work). 

  This is just the tip of the iceberg..


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## DOMS (Dec 25, 2010)

bandaidwoman said:


> nope, most of us study in america because of better funding (dartmouth gave me 100 grand) and we come from countries ( lebanon is very competative like taiwan) where we can't compete with our uber nerdy compatriots.



Because your third-world "greatness" can't fund it because it hasn't done jack in doing...ya know...things that the rest of the world wants.




bandaidwoman said:


> Let's start with my ex-collegue, Kamal Badr  MD



You mean the guy who had to go to a Western country/school to get most of his medical education (emphasis mine)?

"Dr. Badr received his MD from the *American University of Beirut* (AUB) in  1980 and completed Residency training at the AUB-Medical Center  followed by a 4-year fellowship in nephrology at the *Brigham and Women’s  and Children’s Hospitals*, Harvard Medical School. He joined the faculty  at *Vanderbilt University* as Assistant and then Associate Professor  (1986 to 1992), and then at Emory University as Professor of Medicine,  nephrology section Chief at the *Atlanta VA* Hospital, and Director of the  Center for Glomerulonephritis (1992 to 2000)."

Yeah, he just needed the West's money...right.

Compare his achievements to say, Carole Greider (American) and Jack Szostak (British), and their discovery of telomeres. 

So yes, a third-world Muslim _may _amount to something if they make use of all the the first-world has to offer. Say, that reminds me of someone on this board, I just can't remember who...


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## bio-chem (Dec 25, 2010)

DOMS said:


> Completely ignoring biochem's point. Nice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't know why I even bother. She holds this guy up as a bastion of medical awesomeness, quick to point out just how foreign he is, and then when it's shown all of his schooling is coming from right here in the US he is labeled a foreign reject? my gosh, what a silly attempt to thread the needle and have it both ways. I don't give two shits how competitive foreign universities are compared to the US. by a whopping majority medical and scientific advances are done right here at US universities. the idea that MIT doesn't hold up to foreign universities shows the ridiculousness of her posts, and yet for some reason I let myself get sucked in yet again.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 25, 2010)

Let's not forget he did this in a country racked by civil war and invasion at one point by Israel.  Conditions are now better or why else would he return to Lebanon?  

Once again, you are detracting from the argument, I have just proven to you that the muslim religion itself is not the problem, finis.

I*ndians and chinese ( non muslim) also come to our country to benefit from the post graduate environment here. So what is your point?
*
  I know how great the west is, but the initial argument is that the religion of islam does not produce creativity and science but I just refuted that.  But, just like Lebanon, and China, and India, they are now plundering our knowledge and bringing it back to their country as the conditions get better.  II don't see and Serbian scientists producing any worthwhile research in their own marginal country despite the fact that they are christian.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 25, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> I don't know why I even bother. She holds this guy up as a bastion of medical awesomeness, quick to point out just how foreign he is, and then when it's shown all of his schooling is coming from right here in the US he is labeled a foreign reject? my gosh, what a silly attempt to thread the needle and have it both ways. I don't give two shits how competitive foreign universities are compared to the US. by a whopping majority medical and scientific advances are done right here at US universities. the idea that MIT doesn't hold up to foreign universities shows the ridiculousness of her posts, and yet for some reason I let myself get sucked in yet again.




Both of you are confusing religion with environment, both of you have not refuted that islam prevents creativity and invention, I just showed you muslims that did.  You both are so emotional about "defending" how great the west is.

Yes the west is great which is why we are seeing a flood of Serbian scientists coming to america because their country, like many of the middle east, tribal infighting, corruption etc, and exists in marginal conditions.  Yet no one uses the argument that being christians is why they must do so.

In fact, I know it infuriates you so much that muslims are capable of such astonishing medical research that your react by saying they had to come to the west to do so? How does that tie into the hypothesis that being muslim means you are incapable of producing anything inventive?

Laugh, but if your "ivy leagues" accepted  me and Univeristy of Taiwan rejected me for being unqualified, then you are truely ignorant.(  and I really wanted to go because my family was there).    There isn't a flood of americans vying for the top spot at a Japanese or Taiwanese university ( harder to get into than harvard) because you can't get in, simple

I am looking to china in the future or latin america ( brazil) because in my field, stem cell therapy for type 1.5 diabetes or LADA they are leaps and bounds ahead of us.  WHere I used to do research, cold spring harbor laboratory, many of the molecular biologists fled to china and europe and brazil to do embryonic research, yes america is great, but it is no longer the mecca for scientific research like it used to be.  The reason why Badr went back to Lebanon, now as for the Iranian neurosurgeon, he would have to be a moron to leave the Falcons.   $$$$$$$


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## DOMS (Dec 25, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> I don't know why I even bother. She holds this guy up as a bastion of medical awesomeness, quick to point out just how foreign he is, and then when it's shown all of his schooling is coming from right here in the US he is labeled a foreign reject? my gosh, what a silly attempt to thread the needle and have it both ways. I don't give two shits how competitive foreign universities are compared to the US. by a whopping majority medical and scientific advances are done right here at US universities. the idea that MIT doesn't hold up to foreign universities shows the ridiculousness of her posts, and yet for some reason I let myself get sucked in yet again.



Very true.

To give credit where's it due, a lot of useful research and advancement also come from facilities in Europe. Most notably German, British,and French.


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## Dark Geared God (Dec 25, 2010)

Muslims took care of a lot of them overseas..no refunds


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## DOMS (Dec 25, 2010)

bandaidwoman said:


> Both of you are confusing religion with environment, both of you have not refuted that islam prevents creativity and invention, I just showed you muslims that did.  You both are so emotional about "defending" how great the west is.
> 
> Yes the west is great which is why we are seeing a flood of Serbian scientists coming to america because their country, like many of the middle east, exists in marginal conditions.  Yet noone uses the argument that being christians is why they must do so.



Okay, so what're saying is that every place where Muslims reside on this planet is shit. You do realize that by saying they have to come to the West to get anything of substance done, and that none of it gets done "back home" says just that?

Additionally, you're saying that they have to go to places where Muslims don't set the law in order to get anything done. This is the most telling thing that you have said about Muslims and their culture. It's also part of what I and biochem are saying.


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## Big Smoothy (Dec 25, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> Well.. if you allow me BS , i disagree with you.
> 
> Ejames is right ,the past Muslims were the Pioneers in most of the fields and they were the first to put the basis of the Most sciences.
> 
> ...



It's certainly OK to disagree, doctormomen.

Yes, many government in the Muslims world are dictatorships supported by American backroom deals and oil money.

Even your nation of Egypt (which I hope to visit one day) has Mubarak being propped up the US, as he received the #2 largest amount of US foreign aid in the world.  

And the Saud family.

And many more.....

Good point, doctor.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 26, 2010)

DOMS said:


> Okay, so what're saying is that every place where Muslims reside on this planet is shit. .



You obviously haven't been to singapore, Malaysia  or turkey, you should, beautiful  countries.  Once again you confuse religion with geographic politics, why don't you read up on stratfor, just order the basic 300 dollar subsription, they analyze these areas and explain the problem more objectively, I know you have liked what they have had to say in the past.


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 26, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> It's certainly OK to disagree, doctormomen.
> 
> Yes, many government in the Muslims world are dictatorships supported by American backroom deals and oil money.
> 
> ...



China is following suit, people forget china supported president mugabe in zimbabwe, also, out of the future urgent addiction to oil, they support the oil rich Iran, Russia and Venezuala totalitarian governments.  It's amazing how both superpowers help finance some pretty shady characters, but that is the privelige of being super powers no? Unfortunately, the chinese nation has no ethical qualms about this since chinese are ultimately pragmatists above being "ethical".  At least this country allows a healthy showing of disgust for some of our actions.


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## GearsMcGilf (Dec 26, 2010)

bio-chem said:


> I don't know why I even bother. She holds this guy up as a bastion of medical awesomeness, quick to point out just how foreign he is, and then when it's shown all of his schooling is coming from right here in the US he is labeled a foreign reject? my gosh, what a silly attempt to thread the needle and have it both ways. I don't give two shits how competitive foreign universities are compared to the US. by a whopping majority medical and scientific advances are done right here at US universities. the idea that MIT doesn't hold up to foreign universities shows the ridiculousness of her posts, and yet for some reason I let myself get sucked in yet again.



Yes, it is interesting that she claims that Asian Universities are so much more competitive than western ones.  Yet, when you look at the whopping majority (if not 100%) of scientific breakthroughs, over the last hundred years, they all have come from European and US universities.  When I was in China, I spent a lot of time, on the side, proof reading essays for students applying for graduate schools, PhD programs, and Med school in the US, UK, Canada, and Australia.  Basically, every student I met who was reasonably fluent in English and academically competitive was trying to get into a western Ivy League university and most of them were science related.  Not a single one was studying Japanese or Portuguese to study in Japan or Brazil.

Sure, Islamic law has nothing to do with why the middle east has remained so backward for the last 1500 years.  Prior to Islam, it was a bastion of creativity, with great contributions to mathematics and science.  However, after Islam was spread by the sword for hundreds of years, the whole region remained stagnant and they would still be living in tents and shearing sheep if it weren't for the discovery of oil.  Please show some examples if something they export, other than oil, terrorism, and their hateful ideology.


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## doctormomen (Dec 26, 2010)

Big Smoothy said:


> It's certainly OK to disagree, doctormomen.
> 
> Yes, many government in the Muslims world are dictatorships supported by American backroom deals and oil money.
> 
> ...


This video is Awesome! 
YouTube - He is a SOB but he is our SOB


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## DOMS (Dec 26, 2010)

bandaidwoman said:


> You obviously haven't been to singapore, Malaysia  or turkey, you should, beautiful  countries.  Once again you confuse religion with geographic politics, why don't you read up on stratfor, just order the basic 300 dollar subsription, they analyze these areas and explain the problem more objectively, I know you have liked what they have had to say in the past.



Singapore and Malaysia I can buy, but Turkey? Seriously? 

Oh, and Singapore and Malaysia have worthwhile attributes because the have so many people that _aren't Muslim_.

Singapore (wiki): "It has a diverse population of close to 5 million people made up of Chinese, Malays, Indians, Asians of various descents, and Caucasians. 42% of the population in Singapore are foreigners who work and study there. Foreign workers make up 50% of the service sector" and "Buddhism  is the dominant religion in Singapore, with 42.5% of the resident  population declaring themselves adherents at the most recent census."

Malaysia (wiki): "50.4% Malay, 23.7% Chinese, 11.0% Indigenous,  7.1%, Indian, 7.8% Other" and "approximately 60.4% of the population practiced Islam; 19.2% Buddhism; 9.1% Christianity; 6.3% Hinduism; and 2.6% practice Confucianism, Taoism and other traditional Chinese religions". Unlike Singapore, this one counts as an official Islamic country, barely.

However, I'm feeling magnanimous, so I'll simply agree that all three countries are fine, shining examples of Muslim culture. Singapore has a population of 4,987,600, Malaysia has 27,467,837, and Turkey has 74,815,703.  That's a total of 107 million people. Supposedly there are about 1.4 billion (the numbers are between 1.2 and 1.6) Muslims in the world. That means that about 7% of Muslims worldwide are any good.

Wow. That's awesome.


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## DOMS (Dec 26, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> Sure, Islamic law has nothing to do with why the middle east has remained so backward for the last 1500 years.  Prior to Islam, it was a bastion of creativity, with great contributions to mathematics and science.  However, after Islam was spread by the sword for hundreds of years, the whole region remained stagnant and they would still be living in tents and shearing sheep if it weren't for the discovery of oil.  Please show some examples if something they export, other than oil, terrorism, and their hateful ideology.



I never really considered this line of reasoning. The Egyptians made their greatest discoveries when the believed in the Egyptian pantheon. Then the Muslim religion showed up and...nothing.

A very interesting insight, Gears. Well done.


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## GearsMcGilf (Dec 26, 2010)

DOMS said:


> However, I'm feeling magnanimous, so I'll simply agree that all three countries are fine, shining examples of Muslim culture. Singapore has a population of 4,987,600, Malaysia has 27,467,837, and Turkey has 74,815,703.  That's a total of 107 million people. Supposedly there are about 1.4 billion (the numbers are between 1.2 and 1.6) Muslims in the world. That means that about 7% of Muslims worldwide are any good.
> 
> Wow. That's awesome.



Great points.  But, I was a bit skeptical already when she used Singapore and Malaysia as examples successful Muslim countries.  That's like saying that Sikhism is the reason for India's emerging economy.  Ethnic Chinese make up 24% of the Malaysian population and dominate the economy to this day, to the tune of 70%.  IOW, ifleft entirely to the Muslim Malays, 70% of country's economy would be nonexistent.



> Inequalities exist between different ethnic groups, with a major issue  being that the Chinese minority accounts for 70% of the country's market  capitalization, even though it only makes up about one-third of it.[112]



Malaysia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## DOMS (Dec 26, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> Great points.  But, I was a bit skeptical already when she used Singapore and Malaysia as examples successful Muslim countries.  That's like saying that Sikhism is the reason for India's emerging economy.  Ethnic Chinese make up 24% of the Malaysian population and dominate the economy to this day, to the tune of 70%.  IOW, ifleft entirely to the Muslim Malays, 70% of country's economy would be nonexistent.
> 
> "Inequalities exist between different ethnic groups, with a major issue   being that the Chinese minority accounts for 70% of the country's market   capitalization"



I'm willing to bet the source of the "inequalities" is that the Chinese actually _do something_ to make the money. Such as _going to school, _building businesses_,_ and being globally aware.

So many cries of inequality stem from one of group of people doing little or nothing and then bitching about another group that actually does something to improve their lives.

I've learned quite a bit in this thread.  Very nice.


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## GearsMcGilf (Dec 26, 2010)

GWCH!  Yes, when you sit on your ass and expect Allah and the govt to support you and your 10 kids, not much gets done.  That's why the ethnic Malays hate on the Chinese so much.  It's that "inequality" of wealth distribution.


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