# Sarms?



## Call of Ktulu (Feb 19, 2013)

Do they cause shutdown? At what dose and what is the purpose of using it during pct?


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## blergs. (Feb 19, 2013)

Call of Ktulu said:


> Do they cause shutdown? some mild shut down yes At what dose no one can tell you but higher the dose the more the shut down most likely  and what is the purpose of using it during pct? NON... it should not be, SERM's should be not SARMS, if anything i rec igf1 or other peps during PCT.  it could be people trying to limit muscle loss during pct, but using a SARM wont HELP pct, i would do a mild PCT after SARM use





in red


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## blergs. (Feb 19, 2013)

this may help you too:

SARMS Article : Uses, benefits and general compound info  *A Noob Must read* 				 				   						 							 							 						 						 				 					 						Today I want to talk about an AMAZING type of compound that has been growing immensely in popularity and use!

What is it?

SARMS!!!!!!

No not SERMS like Tamox or clomid!

SARMS!   

*SARM's stands for--->  Selective androgen receptor modulators.


*Why would I care about that?*

    Well they have some of the same kind of effects as anabolic steroids  and other compounds that affect the androgen receptor. SARMs are more  selective in their action then most steroids on the market currently and  give much less side effects that are usually seen with these steroids.
The discovery of this new class of drugs is amazing not just to  bodybuilders and power lifters, but to people in all walks of life.
Beneficial use could be from a simple old guy (or young guy like me) on  HRT or a person having bone issues or even for something very life  threatening like a women fighting for her life with breast cancer! 
There are a lot of clinical applications for SARMS and possibly a lot more that we have not discovered yet.[1]

I find this so exciting because in my opinion this is just the start in the development of SARMs.

I guess, "Just the tip of the ice berg" you could say.

That's not meant to sound like we don't already have great SARMs already, we do!


   We have some very amazing SARMs out right now and although none are  legally on the market for general human use, if you know where to look,  they do seem to be readily available now on the black market.
It is nice to think that soon HRT might just be 1 oral SARM dose a day  and for some that might mean a lot if they do not like getting a shot  every 1-2 weeks or rubbing on creams daily for HRT and that's besides  the side effects part of it all.

   There are the side effects of HRT that some people have issues with,  for example someone with prostate issues (or even cancer) on HRT, well  then the use of testosterone for HRT could be very troublesome for a  person in that condition. 
With a SARM that person could possibly use the SARM for his HRT  treatment while limiting the effects on the prostate and maybe even  helping it. There might even be a male oral contraceptive on its way![2]


Now I am no female, but I can only imagine the wonderful uses SARMS could have for women!

  Think about it, just about every treatment for muscle wasting and hormonal issues are treated with... well hormones! 
For a women loosing muscle mass, bone mass, has declining hormones or  even less energy due to these issues could benefit greatly with SARMS  and with limited side effects when compared to other hormone treatment.
For women using hormones, side effects could be (and more times than  not) much worse for them than men. Women can develop an enlarged  clitoris, body/facial hair and even a deepened voice!

For a women that could be devastating and to use hormones at an amount  high enough to combat for eg. muscle wasting effectively, more times  than not women seem to experience one or more of these side effects.

Now with SARMs there is a chance at not only helping female bodybuilders  gain mass with limited side effects, but also treat the very ill and  needy while limiting the side effects on females.
There can still be side effects for women, and especially at high doses  of SARMS, but this would be a lot less so compared to most steroids  currently available. 


*OK, OK, sounds great, but how is it so orally active yet not liver toxic like just about all other oral steroids out there?*

Since SARMs are manmade and not actually a hormone they do not need to  be methylated/17aa to make the hormone to be orally active, which is  usually why it is liver toxic to begin with. SARM's provide the  opportunity to design molecules that can be delivered orally without  making them liver toxic. This is great due to the fact just about every  oral hormone seems to be liver toxic due to the alterations made to the  hormone making it more orally active and effective.


*To understand how a SARM works you need to have a bit of an  understanding about the androgen receptor, so here is a bit of info on  that:

Androgens and Androgen receptors * 
The androgen receptor plays a big role in the function of many organs in  the body including sexual organs, skeletal muscle, and bone. Androgen  receptors let the body to respond to androgens in the body and androgen  receptors are in a lot of the body's tissues.
 When the androgen binds to the androgen receptor it regulates the  activity of androgen responsive genes by turning them on or off. The  androgens and their receptors help direct the development of male sexual  characteristics during puberty. 
But that's not the only thing they do, androgens also have other very  important functions in males and females like controlling hair growth,  mood, energy, cognitive function and sex drive (amongst other  things).[3]


*So a SARM is an ANDROGEN?*

NO!

Some crazy ass scientist's figured out how to active the receptors without even using an androgen at all!
That's the beauty of it; SARMS are on a whole new level!

Over MANY years scientists have toyed with steroids to limit their side effects and utilize the effects they want from them. 
I mean just about all AAS are just an altered form of testosterone, DHT or prog!
It has been many years and they still don't have a "perfect steroid"!  >: - (


   Now with SARMS on the other hand, they have just started toying with  them and we are already this far! If you think of it like that, I can  only imagine how advanced we will be with SARM's in the coming years. 
I am very excited about this fact! That's not to say AAS is crap. I love  testosterone myself and am on HRT. I love how it makes me feel and the  help in recovery it gives me (on HRT or on cycle) But to be able to  possibly use a SARM as full blown HRT treatment along with boosting sex  drive and be a contraceptive and to be all orally taken, it is just  amazing to me!

How I see it is there may even be quite a few SARMs to pick from sometime soon for HRT treatment.

*What do I mean?*

Ok let me try to explain my theory with 3 "made up" SARM's for HRT use:

SARM1: HRT treatment SARM with closest possible effects to testosterone, without the negative side effects.


SARM2: HRT treatment SARM with effects like testosterone but altered to  boost libido much higher and also be an oral contraceptive


SARM3: HRT/muscle wasting SARM with effects like that of testosterone,  but with a much higher anabolic activity. For use with HRT and/or muscle  wasting patients.


The above is just me explain my theory, Please don't PM me asking where to get them lol.


What I am getting at is we may have an option for "many flavours" of SARMs depending on our personality, goals or conditions!
I think that's FREAKING AWESOME!!!

If you could cut down the amount of medications and treat more than one  condition with just one drug that is not even liver toxic AND with less  side effects is just amazing! 


*So what SARM's are out there then?*

Well there is many and many still being made. I am going to talk about  the 2 most popular and currently used and they are called Ostarine (or  MK-2866) and Andarine (or S-4).

These SARMs very a bit in their effects but both will get the job done  for those of us that are into powerlifting or bodybuilding.


*So whats the deal of these two SARMs?*


Here is a short description on them:

*MK-2866 :*
Ostarine is a selective androgen receptor modulator developed by GTx Inc  for treatment of conditions like muscle wasting and osteoporosis.  Ostarine is an orally active, potent and selective agonist for androgen  receptors shown in animal and human studies to have anabolic effects in  both muscle and bone. It has an androgenic potency around 1/3rd of its  anabolic potency. It was shown in vitro to increase the ratio of  osteoblast formation from bone marrow osteoprogenitor cells, and reduced  the number of new osteoclasts formed. It produced dose-dependent  increases in bone mineral density and mechanical strength in vivo, as  well as decreasing body fat and increasing lean body mass.[4] Human  trials have shown promising efficacy and with a long half-life in humans  of about 24 hours.[5] Ostarine has also gone through human trials up to  Phase II with positive results.[6]
Dosing: 10-40mg ed seems to be the norm in its black market use for muscle building effects.


*S-4 : * 
Andarine is an orally active agonist for androgen receptors. In an  animal model of benign prostatic hypertrophy, Andarine was shown to  reduce prostate weight with similar efficacy to Finasteride, but without  producing any reduction in muscle mass or anti-androgenic side effects.  This suggests that it is able to block binding of dihydrotestosterone  to its receptor targets in the prostate gland, but its partial agonist  effects at androgen receptors prevent the side effects associated with  the anti-androgenic drugs traditionally used for treatment of BPH.  Studies showed that Andarine is rapidly absorbed and highly bioavailable  after oral doses capable of maximal pharmacologic activity. The  favorable pharmacokinetics of Andarine permits convenient low doses and  show that it is a strong candidate for continued clinical  development.[7] A common side effect is slightly yellow colored vision  and night blindness, but these side effects diminish around 5-6 days  after last dose. 
Dosing: 30-100mg ed,  1-2X a day is the norm for black market use for muscle building effects.



Ok so now that I covered the basics on what the hell a SARM is and how  they even work if they are not hormones, I will move on to how you can  cycle these.

   There is A LOT of debate on what is the best way to use these  compounds (I mean for the most part medical human use it limited so) but  I along with many others have personal experience with these compounds.  So Combined with my years of research, personal experience (and of  others) I will base these cycles of what I feel is the most effective  yet safe way to go about it. 

   Now there is a lot of debate (more so in the past) that SARM's do not shut you down, I believe this to be untrue. 
They may be VERY VERY mild in this regard and lower doses you may not  even notice shut down at all, but they can cause shut down so keep PCT in mind and/or on hand as a possibility.
I rec a small PCT anyway if you are using them more than 4-6weeks at a time, just to be safe.


 Some may argue to limit its use to 4 weeks, while others recommend much  more. I found for optimal results with no added side effects (that I  noticed or from others reports) that 6-8weeks min and 8-10wks avg is a  good amount of time to run these SARM's. 
I personally like 8-10wks of osta.  *Also since we do not exactly have  long term use record of them so it is best to be on the safer side* 



*SARMS CYCLES:*

*S-4 cycle:*
Wk1-6 25mg ed 2X a day = 50mg total


*Osta cycle:*
Wk1-8 25mg ed



HA, very simple when compared to AAS cycles is it not?  

If you feel like you may need a PCT then 2-3 weeks of low dosed Tamox (10mg ed) or clomid (20-30mg ed) should help. 

Most should be fine with just OTC supplemental help post cycle to aid in recovery.


I truly hope this information help someone out that is new to SARMs and did not understand them. 



Hope you enjoyed!!!




Take care












References:
1)	Selective androgen receptor modulators in preclinical and clinical  development. Ramesh Narayanan, Michael L. Mohler, Casey E. Bohl, Duane  D. Miller, and James T. Dalton Selective androgen receptor modulators in preclinical and clinical development
2)	A SARM for Horomonal Male Contraception http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/conten...2/546.full.pdf
3)	J Endocrinol Invest. 2003;26(3 Suppl):23-8. Sexual differentiation. Sinisi AA, Pasquali D, Notaro A, Bellastella A. Sexual differentiation. [J Endocrinol Invest. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI
4)	Kearbey JD, Gao W, Narayanan R, Fisher SJ, Wu D, Miller DD, Dalton  JT. Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator (SARM) treatment prevents bone  loss and reduces body fat in ovariectomized rats. Pharmaceutical  Research. 2007 Feb;24(2):328-35. PMID 17063395
5)	Gao W, Kim J, Dalton JT. Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of  nonsteroidal androgen receptor ligands. Pharmaceutical Research. 2006  Aug;23(8):1641-58. PMID 16841196
6)	GTx Announces That Ostarine Achieved Primary Endpoint Of Lean Body  Mass And A Secondary Endpoint Of Improved Functional Performance  Discovery and therapeutic promise of selective androgen receptor  modulators. Chen J, Kim J, Dalton JT.Source Division of  Pharmaceutics,College of Pharmacy, The Ohio State University, Columbus,  Ohio 43210, USA. Discovery and therapeutic promise of selective an... [Mol Interv. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI​


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## Call of Ktulu (Feb 19, 2013)

Thanks that answered my question.


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