# Is Caffeine even GOOD for you?!?! - Article and Discussion!



## lgkitfox (Jan 11, 2008)

*is Caffeine even good for you?!?!*

Prepare yourself, it is a LONG read, but a very good one..and it will educate you and give you something to think about 

With the explosion on the market of 4 hour+ energy shots that contain zero caffeine, I question the value of caffeine in weight loss products and energy pills in general. One major problem is that there are so many sources of caffeine in the diet: including coffee, chocolate, soda pop (diet and regular) and now just about every dietary supplement. 

Most pre-workout NO products contain some form of caffeine. Many unscrupulous supplement companies are disguising caffeine as ???Methyl Xanthines??? or simple ???Xanthines??? as a way to disguise the use of caffeine in their supplement. Things like ???Chocamine??? ??? and Chocolate extract are primarily made up of caffeine and its derivatives. Finally, herbal extracts like Guarana and certain tea extracts like Mate are used to disguise the caffeine content of dietary supplements.

Picture this, you wake up in the morning and have large coffee at your favorite Starbucks???. The Venti has 480mg of caffeine on average and that is NOT using the expresso beans! So, 480mg to start your day is a whopping dose of caffeine. Then let???s say you have a diet soda at 10am and then another 20oz at lunch. That indulgence adds an extra 72mg per serving, so tack on another 144mg to your tally. You decide to hit the gym before your workout and take the typical EXPLODE product with caffeine. These pre-workout supplements have roughly 300mg per serving and often recommend that you take a double serving before working out, so add on another 600mg. Just an average day in the life of a bodybuilder is looking like over a GRAM of caffeine without even thinking about it (1,224mg to be exact). Now, if you add your caffeine based theromogenic on top of it, you could be ingesting another 600-800mg per day (most ???stimulant??? based thermogenics contain about 200mg of caffeine per serving in one of the forms mentioned above). 

So, the average bodybuilder is *consuming 2000mg of caffeine per day! *The recommended level that the Mayo Clinic recommends is two 12oz cans of diet soda per day max or about 90mg. Every day, millions of people take caffeine in one form or another. It can stay in the body for about 10 hours, if you have a fully functioning liver. If you drink alcohol or take steroids or 17aMethyl Pro-steroids, it will stick around even longer. That means the Starbucks??? you had for breakfast is still around at 6pm and if you take something with Guarana, it will hang around even longer. So, the average bodybuilder is consuming 2000mg of caffeine per day! The recommended level that the Mayo Clinic recommends is two 12oz cans of diet soda per day max or about 90mg. Every day, millions of people take caffeine in one form or another. It can stay in the body for about 10 hours, if you have a fully functioning liver. If you drink alcohol or take steroids or 17aMethyl Pro-steroids, it will stick around even longer. That means the Starbucks??? you had for breakfast is still around at 6pm and if you take something with Guarana, it will hang around even longer.

So, what?!? What is the big deal? Isn???t caffeine the most harmless thing that a bodybuilder can take? Caffeine doesn???t have side effects and it can give you a boost when you are down???right? I need that stimulant to get ???going???!

*HOW IT AFFECTS BODYBUILDERS*

Effects of eight weeks of caffeine supplementation and endurance training on aerobic fitness and body composition:

???_These findings indicated that chronic use of the caffeine-containing supplement in the present study, in conjunction with aerobic training, provided no ergogenic effects as measured by VO(2)peak and TRE, and the supplement was of no benefit for altering body weight or body composition.???_

*So*, it is more than possible that caffeine does not add to the ergogenic effect in trained athletes and doesn???t help athletes lose weight. How about this study showing the negative effects on creatine supplementation?

Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading.Vandenberghe K, Gillis N, Van Leemputte M, Van Hecke P, Vanstapel F, Hespel P.

This study shows the caffeine reversed the benefit of creatine and muscle strength. Creatine showed an increase in muscle torque of 10-23% in the subjects studied. According to the conclusion: 

???_The data show that Creatine supplementation elevates muscle PhosphoCreatine concentration and markedly improves performance during intense intermittent exercise. This ergogenic effect, however, is completely eliminated by caffeine intake.??? _

So, here we have clear evidence that caffeine eliminates some of the key benefits of creatine supplementation, so why is it in your NO or Creatine product?

Let???s talk about another big problem with the over use of caffeine???type II diabetes and metabolic syndrome. Why would this matter to the bodybuilder? One big reason! Insulin is the second most important nutrient to the bodybuilder for building muscle and anything that blunts its effect isn???t really a good thing. 

Caffeine has been proven in many scientific studies to increase the risk of metabolic syndrome and type II diabetes by blunting the effect of insulin in the bloodstream. In fact caffeine can be implicated in making diabetics fat! Reduced insulin sensitivity causes the body to release more insulin (hyper-insulinemia) which reduces the uptake of nutrients in the muscle cells (stay away from caffeine with your workouts) and potentiates the storage of energy as fat!

So, in effect this caffeine over consumption might do WAY more harm than good and increase your chances of becoming obese, reducing your muscles ability to recover and taxing your adrenal system. There are reams of documents on pubmed that show how destructive caffeine is to your ability to metabolize sugar and the reduced effect of insulin in a hyper caffeinated environment.

Professional bodybuilders take EXTRA insulin to increase their recovery and size, it is one of the most important nutrient systems that they can use to increase size and recovery. *It is second only to anabolic steroids in making *the professional bodybuilder ultra big. Why would anyone that wants a better physique take something that blunts the most anabolic hormone in the body next to testosterone? Why take 2,000mg of something that is PROVEN to reduce your recovery and ability to store nutrients? It is insanity, especially when you consider that caffeine has a very dubious effect on its ability to increase weight loss, with very little data showing it to be an effective weight loss aid. 

Actually, it seems that caffeine barely has a thermogenic effect and there are FAR better ways of getting a mental lift in the gym (although caffeine is very cheap, running about $8 per kilogram, which is why so many companies put it in their supplements to contrast, Yohimbine is about $1500 per kilogram).

Type II Insulin resistance caused by caffeine WILL HAMPER YOUR ABILITY TO GAIN MUSCLE! Period! It is proven in multiple studies: 

_???The present study in mice demonstrates that both models of diabetes impair regenerating muscles as well as uninjured muscles. Regenerating fast muscles are weaker, lighter and slower in diabetic compared with nondiabetic mice.???(-_Vignaud, A) 

Meaning, muscles regenerate more slowly in a insulin resistant environment! How about this study: ???In conclusion, individuals with impaired glucose homeostasis have reduced skeletal muscle nNOSmicro protein content.???(???Bradley, SJ)

Caffiene aslo increses your blood pressure, and these findings from Duke University state:

_???Excessive pressure on the artery walls can damage your vital organs. The higher your blood pressure and the longer it goes uncontrolled, the greater the damage"._

Uncontrolled high blood pressure can lead to:

Damage to your arteries. This can result in hardening and thickening of the arteries (atherosclerosis), which can lead to a heart attack or other complications. An enlarged, bulging blood vessel (aneurysm) also is possible.

Heart failure. To pump blood against the higher pressure in your vessels, your heart muscle thickens. Eventually, the thickened muscle may have a hard time pumping enough blood to meet your body's needs, which can lead to heart failure.

A blocked or ruptured blood vessel in your brain. This can lead to stroke. Weakened and narrowed blood vessels in your kidneys. This can prevent these organs from functioning normally.

Thickened, narrowed or torn blood vessels in the eyes. This can result in vision loss. Metabolic syndrome. This syndrome is a cluster of disorders of your body's metabolism ??? including elevated waist circumference, high triglycerides, low high-density lipoprotein (HDL), or "good," cholesterol, high blood pressure and high insulin levels. If you have high blood pressure, you're more likely to have other components of metabolic syndrome. The more components you have, the greater your risk of developing diabetes, heart disease or stroke.

Uncontrolled high blood pressure also may affect your ability to think, remember and learn. Cognitive impairment and dementia are more common in people who have high blood pressure.???

The average bodybuilder doesn???t need higher blood pressure. In fact heavy lifting has been shown to increase blood pressure up to a whopping 250/180 (the average healthy blood pressure is under 120/80), so an unnecessary boost in blood pressure from caffeine. Supplements can certainly use other forms of stimulation to boost the metabolic effect or increase focus and intensity.

Yohimbine for example has been shown by Pantox Laboratories in California, to not raise blood pressure at moderate doses and makes an excellent replacement for caffeine in pre-workout nitric oxide drinks and powders to give the focus boosting effect. It also has a very good thermogenic effect without worsening insulin sensitivity. 

Also, many stimulant manufacturers are using things other than caffeine to provide a boost in energy or even offsetting the dangers of caffeine with natural blood pressure reducing agents like Hawthorn Berry (*Search Hawthorn Berry Stimulants for a list) and natural insulin potentiators like Momordica (*search mormodica stimulants for a list) with their thermogenics. Searching the internet for caffeine free stimulants is a good place to start (*search ???caffeine free stimulants???) looking for such alternatives.

These items are useful in eliminating the negative effects of caffeine with all of the positive benefits. They are included in many supplements the do not include caffeine. The problem is that most supplements are either stimulants with caffeine or are simply less effective non-stimulant versions, which do not provide the focus and thermogenic effect of stimulants. 

Considering the amount of caffeine in dietary sources, the average person consumes enough from their standard diet to add any thermogenic effect to a stimulant based fat burner (caffeine does help increase the effect of other fat burners) without over doing it on the caffeine. So, if your stimulant and pre-workout Nitric Oxide supplement contains caffeine, perhaps you should look for alternatives that contain other stimulants like yohimbine. They will give you the same boost in the gym with out the negatives. If you want a little extra caffeine, have a cup of coffee. 

Caffeine has also been shown at high doses to increase cholesterol levels (suicide for bodybuilders taking anti-estrogens to boost testosterone or people using anabolic steroids since a reduction in estrogen, even in males can cause altered lipid profiles) without showing much of a weight loss effect. High cholesterol is something that a bodybuilder should take very seriously, since the current class of pro-steroids on the market has a chance to alter lipid profiles greatly.

Caffeine is something that is damaging to the body builder who wants to build the most possible muscle, by reducing the sensitivity to insulin. Insulin is a key hormone in building muscle and recovery and its impairment will certainly hamper growth. Also, caffeine makes bodybuilders more susceptible to the dangers of high blood pressure and altered lipid profiles which can worsen the chances of sudden death when combined with anabolic steroids. Interestingly coffee is somewhat different since it has been discovered that coffee contains chlorogenic acid, which has been shown to increase the effect of insulin and reduce the metabolic syndrome effects of caffeine (studies found that drinking coffee did not have the same negative metabolic insulin reducing effect as standard caffeine supplements from Guarana or Caffeine Anhydrous). So, if you must have your ???caffeine boost??? then take it from Charbucks or better yet a coffee company that has good coffee and leave the caffeine out of your dietary supplements!


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## XFatMan (Jan 11, 2008)

And for those who are interested in more should google for *the caffeine blues*. It was my first step  back to normal life again. I used to drink one cup of coffee after another and had all those bad symptoms. Only one symptom persists even after nine months of very low caffeine intake: chronic insomnia. But now it's much better than before. I can sleep up to 7 hours without waking up. It was quite normal for me to wake up after just two hours. And that was the point where I couldn't take it anymore. My limit now is three cups of coffee per day. 

I take Guaraná as it is a very, very good fat loss supplement with scientific background. One of the active substances in guaraná is technically identical with caffeine. However, it stimulates in a different way and doesn't give you "the caffeine blues", similar to the caffeine found in green tea.

I had every single caffeine-overdose symptom you can think of. And God only knows how bad this is. So anytime someone suggests caffeine or describes it as harmless, uh-oh! I get quite upset.


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## sensamilia (Jan 11, 2008)

I aint givin up coffee or soda or my ECA stack.


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## KelJu (Jan 11, 2008)

If loving coffee is wrong, I don't wanna be right.


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## XFatMan (Jan 11, 2008)

sensamilia said:


> I aint givin up coffee or soda or my ECA stack.



If one day you get where I have been, you will, believe me.


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## KelJu (Jan 11, 2008)

My father is 65. He has been drinking coffee since his early 20s. He is doing just fine. My grandfather is 90, still drinks coffee, and is is doing just fine.


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## danzik17 (Jan 11, 2008)

Coffee and Tea are the only things I drink besides water.  No way in hell I could go 100% water for the rest of my life, I would go insane.


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## lgkitfox (Jan 11, 2008)

Consider your goals and aspirations in the sport, and whether you are reaching your maximum potential within your knowledge. Thats all i have to do, when i arm myself with the knoweldge that caffiene SUCKS, and it makes caffienated products alot less tempting!!! 

I will still use green tea, but there are plenty of non caffienated teas, fruit and veggies juices, crystal lite, sugar substituted sweet drinks pseudo-pops etc, etc.


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## danny81 (Jan 11, 2008)

caffein burns fat tho doent it?


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## Arnold (Jan 11, 2008)

damn, the next thing you're going to tell us is that alcohol is bad!


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## jhawkin1 (Jan 11, 2008)

green tea is just fine for me.


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## XFatMan (Jan 12, 2008)

KelJu said:


> My father is 65. He has been drinking coffee since his early 20s. He is doing just fine. My grandfather is 90, still drinks coffee, and is is doing just fine.


Some people can do that, but most really can't. My dad is 65, too. He drinks like 10 - 15 cups of coffee a day and never felt bad in any way.


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## P-funk (Jan 12, 2008)

some people can....some people can't....

this thread is filled with so much conjecture.


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## KelJu (Jan 12, 2008)

P-funk said:


> some people can....some people can't....
> 
> this thread is filled with so much conjecture.



This thread? Don't you mean every thread?


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## Witchblade (Jan 12, 2008)

I'm not a fan of coffee either. The only things I drink are green tea, water and work-out shakes.

BTW, great thread!


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## P-funk (Jan 12, 2008)

KelJu said:


> This thread? Don't you mean every thread?



true, a lot of things are conjecture based.

But, you can be evidenced based....it just depends on doing the research and citing sources.


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## KelJu (Jan 12, 2008)

P-funk said:


> true, a lot of things are conjecture based.
> 
> But, you can be evidenced based....it just depends on doing the research and citing sources.



I already have, I just didn't feel like going into it. There have been tons of studies done about coffee benefiting neurological heath, diabetes, GI tract functions, ect. 

Plus, coffee has been around forever.


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## P-funk (Jan 12, 2008)

KelJu said:


> I already have, I just didn't feel like going into it. There have been tons of studies done about coffee benefiting neurological heath, diabetes, GI tract functions, ect.
> 
> Plus, coffee has been around forever.



For the record, you are not the one I was disagreeing with.


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## KelJu (Jan 12, 2008)

P-funk said:


> For the record, you are not the one I was disagreeing with.



Gotcha.


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## danzik17 (Jan 12, 2008)

Almost everything can be proven to be bad for you in excess.  Just go for moderation if anything - there's no real reason to give up having a cup or two of coffee a day, just don't have fifteen (unless it's finals week and you have 3 papers due the next morning ala last semester  )


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## lgkitfox (Jan 12, 2008)

It may have been around forever, but so has booze, that doesnt make it good. ALot of things in our society have been around for ages, that doesn't translate into it's use and functionality for the human body so much as it indicates our societal gravitation to latch onto things that aren't good for us (from a health stand point) and THRIVE - smoking, boozing, partying, you name it.


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## Gazhole (Jan 14, 2008)

I like tea, caffeine or not. I drink one or two cups a day usually, though when i worked in building services id have something like 6 cups a day - and i refused about that many aswell.

What is it about tradespeople and tea? Is this just a british phenomenon? Its like theyre critically dehydrated and tea is IV.

 Coffee i just dont like the taste of, call me a heathen if you like, Kelju .


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## tucker01 (Jan 14, 2008)

What ever happened to using things in moderation?


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## soxmuscle (Jan 14, 2008)

A lot of times I'll drink green tea or a cup of decaf coffee before I go to bed because it's relaxing.  Both of those drinks have a significant amount of caffeine and do nothing to negatively affect my sleeping patterns.

Perhaps my liver is just superior to yours.


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## XFatMan (Jan 14, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> A lot of times I'll drink green tea or a cup of decaf coffee before I go to bed because it's relaxing.  Both of those drinks have a significant amount of caffeine and do nothing to negatively affect my sleeping patterns.
> 
> Perhaps my liver is just superior to yours.



Some studies have shown that low to moderate caffeine intake shortly before going to bed (about 20 - 30 minutes) can actually contribute to better sleep - even in individuals that have the "caffeine blues" otherwise. They just don't know why. Several studies have been done on that topic. So, I don't think your liver is special.


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## KelJu (Jan 14, 2008)

XFatMan said:


> Some studies have shown that low to moderate caffeine intake shortly before going to bed (about 20 - 30 minutes) can actually contribute to better sleep - even in individuals that have the "caffeine blues" otherwise. They just don't know why. Several studies have been done on that topic. So, I don't think your liver is special.



Its the same reason that a high power amphetamine calms down children and adults with ADD/ADHD.


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## starseed (Jan 18, 2008)

2000mg of caffeine is a ton! It only takes 10mg to affect mood.

I'm very sensitive to caffeine and avoid all forms (other than a rare dark chocolate).  It was an eye opening event to count caffeine mgs from obvious sources like coffee and especially hidden sources.  Why not count caffeine mgs along with calories, fats, fiber, carbs, etc., then choose a healthy caffeine level for one's self, i.e. just be aware of how much caffeine mgs one consumes daily.

It might also be of interest that caffeine addiction, caffeine withdrawal and caffeine psychosis are soon to be medically recognized.  The new Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM V due in 2012) will contain the above as medical conditions.


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## starseed (Jan 18, 2008)

I also might add that caffeine withdrawal is not bad, but tricky.  Mainly a diffused headache, irritability, and excess fatigue.  Goes away in about 7 to 10 days, but cravings for caffeine lasts for a long time (the tricky part 1).  

Many people never withdrawal from caffeine, even when they quit coffee, because they are unaware of hidden sources of caffeine.  Those hidden sources keep their caffeine addiction going, never allowing withdrawal to happen (tricky part 2).  A very large percentage of the American population maintains a consistent addiction to caffeine and doesn't know it.

Once withdrawal is over, most people get their energy back, feel calmer and more grounded, sleep better, and their mood stabilizes.  Personally, I feel 100% better without caffeine.  I know caffeine is one more addiction me and my body are senior to.  I like being in control of my body, not hostage to an addiction (I'm not perfect, but I work on it all the time).

Anyone who suffers from anxiety or panic attacks or nerve disorders should also stay away from caffeine.


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## KelJu (Jan 18, 2008)

starseed said:


> I also might add that caffeine withdrawal is not bad, but tricky.  Mainly a diffused headache, irritability, and excess fatigue.  Goes away in about 7 to 10 days, but cravings for caffeine lasts for a long time (the tricky part 1).
> 
> Many people never withdrawal from caffeine, even when they quit coffee, because they are unaware of hidden sources of caffeine.  Those hidden sources keep their caffeine addiction going, never allowing withdrawal to happen (tricky part 2).  A very large percentage of the American population maintains a consistent addiction to caffeine and doesn't know it.
> 
> ...




I started having anxiety and panic attacks when I was 12. I didn't become a stimulate user until I was 18. I started drinking coffee when I was 22. My mood, concentration, grades, and alertness finally stabilized to an acceptable level with a daily regular intake of coffee. I hail coffee as the greatest fucking thing known to man with pot falling a close second. Mix pot with coffee, and I become a fucking God. 

I refuse to talk bad about caffeine. It fuels the hopes and dreams of champions.


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## danzik17 (Jan 18, 2008)

I'll never stop drinking coffee, but holy shit going through caffeine withdrawal sucked.  For about a week straight I could barely stay awake or get out of bed, let alone do something like go to the gym.


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## Namo (Jan 19, 2008)

Mmmmmm...  turbo-hot


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