# Protein through the night.



## patrickjfanning (May 22, 2011)

About a year ago I started drinking protein through the night.  The reason I started was two fold.  One, to speed my metabolism.  It made it much easier to reach my optimum protein mgs.  I use a standard protein shaker.  I stack 1/2 casein and 1/2 whey, 4 scoops total.  so we're talking 100 mgs of protein.  It's crazy, like clockwork I wake up at 12:30, 3am, and 5:30 starving.  I don't think I could make it through the night without it.  My metabolism is great.  On top of my 5-6 meals a day, I have 3 night time feeds.  I've never heard of anyone else doing this.  I'd love some feedback.


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## Built (May 22, 2011)

It doesn't speed up your metabolism. Meal frequency doesn't impact upon metabolism at all. 

You're interrupting your sleep for something that's completely unnecessary.


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## SuperLift (May 22, 2011)

Im kind of neutral on the subject. I wouldn't agree or disagree. Some people don't sleep through the night, like me. I wake up at least once 9 out of 10 nights without fail. VERY rarely will I sleep through the night without waking up. So if I were to slam a small shake since im waking up anyways, I don't see how that could be bad. It actually may benefit me. I usually take a blend protein before bed. Does it make it hard to fall back asleep after having a shake in the middle of the night?


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## patrickjfanning (May 22, 2011)

Built said:


> It doesn't speed up your metabolism. Meal frequency doesn't impact upon metabolism at all.
> 
> You're interrupting your sleep for something that's completely unnecessary.


 How can you say that???  Of course it does.  If you eat 3 meals a day and then don't eat from 6pm till 8am that's 14hrs of fasting.  You body naturally slows down.  it's almost in starvation mode.  Haven't you heard of 6 small meals a day???  Why do you think that is???  Now maybe what I'm doing is a little excessive.  But I'm 45yrs old,  do no cardio for the time being.  210lbs and 12%bf and that's a high est.  And that's not my natural genetics.  I have to manipulate it...


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## OutWhey (May 22, 2011)

patrickjfanning said:


> How can you say that??? Of course it does. If you eat 3 meals a day and then don't eat from 6pm till 8am that's 14hrs of fasting. You body naturally slows down. it's almost in starvation mode. Haven't you heard of 6 small meals a day??? Why do you think that is??? Now maybe what I'm doing is a little excessive. But I'm 45yrs old, do no cardio for the time being. 210lbs and 12%bf and that's a high est. And that's not my natural genetics. I have to manipulate it...


 I tend to agree with you but I look at the more frequent meals as keeping a steady flow of macronutrient to the body in lieu of overloading the body a few times a day. However, many people have the reasons for what they do which I always enjoy reading.


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## ThreeGigs (May 22, 2011)

patrickjfanning said:


> How can you say that???  Of course it does.  If you eat 3 meals a day and then don't eat from 6pm till 8am that's 14hrs of fasting.  You body naturally slows down.  it's almost in starvation mode.  Haven't you heard of 6 small meals a day???  Why do you think that is???  Now maybe what I'm doing is a little excessive.  But I'm 45yrs old,  do no cardio for the time being.  210lbs and 12%bf and that's a high est.  And that's not my natural genetics.  I have to manipulate it...



It doesn't SPEED your metabolism, it ALTERS your metabolism. Fact check it. It takes 3 days for your metabolism to slow down in 'starvation mode'. Until then, it's actually even more primed for action, unless of course you've de-trained your body away from being able to quickly and efficiently utilize fat for energy.

And 100 mgs of protein? A tenth of a gram? Are you sure you have your measurements right?


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## patrickjfanning (May 22, 2011)

ThreeGigs said:


> It doesn't SPEED your metabolism, it ALTERS your metabolism. Fact check it. It takes 3 days for your metabolism to slow down in 'starvation mode'. Until then, it's actually even more primed for action, unless of course you've de-trained your body away from being able to quickly and efficiently utilize fat for energy.
> 
> And 100 mgs of protein? A tenth of a gram? Are you sure you have your measurements right?


 Come on bro.  That's obviously a typo.  100 grams, is that better??  And I'll research your point.  But I'm not sure what the difference is between alter and manipulate.... But I appreciate the feedback...


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## LAM (May 22, 2011)

proteins have the highest TEF of the 3 macro groups, it takes more energy in the digestion process to break down proteins that it does carbs or fatty acids.  

most would not notice it's effects unless they are already on strict diet, low bf, etc.  the overall glycemic load of the meal is also a factor in the amount of energy used during digestion of a meal.  the more cals in a meal they greater the TEF, this does not apply to those that are severely overweight and/or obese, their metabolism are less efficient for a variety of reasons.  

in terms of the metabolism at night, for those that are lean, have excess LBM, etc. greater than average  amounts, etc. the RMR actually increases during the 1st sleep cycle then steadily decrease until it reaches it's "slowest" point right before awakening.  the greater the amount of fat free mass that a person has the less of a difference there is between the sleeping metabolic rate (SMR) and the resting metabolic rate (RMR).

to delay gastic emptying or the rate at which the stomach contents migrate further down the GIT add fibers and healthy fats to your nighttime shake.  both effect the rate at which nutrients enter the portal bloodstream via the small intestine, a.ka. time release.


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## feinburgrl (May 22, 2011)

Sleeping is the most important time for your body to repair your muscles. Good job patrickjfanning, you just worsen your body for opti time for development with metabolism that you don't understand about.


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## patrickjfanning (May 23, 2011)

feinburgrl said:


> Sleeping is the most important time for your body to repair your muscles. Good job patrickjfanning, you just worsen your body for opti time for development with metabolism that you don't understand about.


Really!!!!!!! How can you reach such a conclusion with such little info. For one, I haven't slept through the night in 15yrs. I wake every 3hrs anyway. I wish I didn't, but I do. The only difference is now I wake hungry. In the last year I've put on 10lb of lean muscle mass.


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## feinburgrl (May 23, 2011)

As bodybuilders we are constantly on the lookout for new and effective ways to gain muscle. The latest supplement, a sophisticated training routine, a new diet. Granted, all of these things are crucially important but what is possibly most important of all is sleep.

The best training routine, diet and supplement program will not compensate for insufficient rest, and sleep is the best, and only (in some instances), way of getting this rest. Professor Michael Colgan went as far as to say: €œeven if your training and nutrition program can straight for the mouth of God almighty, without adequate rest your body will fail to adapt.€?

During sleep, growth hormone is produced and protein synthesis (provided protein is consumed prior to sleep) occurs. These are only two beneficial aspects of sleep. Energy consumption reduction and brain cell restoration are two other aspects equally important for bodybuilders.

Throughout this article I will explain the various stages of sleep and their implications for bodybuilders. Outlined also will be the benefits sleep has in terms of muscle recovery and growth.


Why Do We Sleep?


Sleep serves many vital functions. For bodybuilders the main functions are growth and mental alertness. Sleep provides these effects directly. Without adequate sleep, time in the gym could be, to a large degree, wasted. The following are important functions of sleep.

The repairing of muscle and other tissues, and replace aging or dead cells:

Sleeping for 8-10 hours per night is similar to fasting and this is catabolic to muscle growth. However, eating just prior to sleeping, can help to reverse this process and increase protein synthesis. Protein synthesis does occur under conditions of sleep but it occurs in the gastrointestinal tract, not the muscles.
Muscle is actually broken down under these conditions to provide our stomach with amino acids during this time of €œstarvation€?. Eating before bed is crucial in offsetting this. Some reports suggest waking up in the middle of the night to eat (nocturnal eating).

Human growth hormone is also released under conditions of sleep. In men, 60% to 70% of daily human growth hormone secretion occurs during early sleep which is typically when the deepest sleep cycles occur. Poor quality sleep can negatively impact human growth hormone levels.

Research suggests that it€™s during REM (Rapid Eye Movement: explained later) sleep that the body is able to: restore organs, bones, and tissue; replenish immune cells; and circulate human growth hormone. Sleep has a profound effect on muscle growth and physical well being.

During sleep energy consumption is lowered:

Lowered energy consumption is a biological mechanism for resource conservation. We would need many meals per day (rather than the normal 4-6 for bodybuilders) if we did not get enough sleep.
With bodybuilders, the name of the game is increased size, so energy conservation out of the gym is paramount. Several meals throughout the day also assists growth, and sleep helps to ensure that food is used to replace energy and rebuild muscle (pre-sleep meals and nocturnal eating help to intensify this effect).

Sleep to recharge the brain:

Adenosine (a neurotransmitter that produces ATP, the energy-storage molecule that powers most of the biochemical reactions inside cells) is used as a signal to tell the brain that it needs to rest. Rising and declining concentrations of adenosine suggest that the brain is actually resting during sleep given that adenosine secretion reflects brain activity.
During sleep, levels of adenosine decline. Blocking adenosine in the brain has been shown to increase alertness, so this suggests that during sleep the brain is recharging. During the day heightened levels of adenosine, particularly toward the end of the day, suggest that the brain is getting tired.

Resting the brain has obvious implications for bodybuilders given that mental alertness is desired during the day, especially during training. Motivation levels are highest when mental alertness is highest. Studies suggest that it is during REM sleep that proper functioning of the brain and alertness is assisted.


The Stages Of Sleep & The Sleep/Wake Cycle


The brain follows cycles during sleep, which last between 90 and 100 minutes each. The two different types of sleep are REM and non-REM sleep. A sleep cycle begins with 4 stages of non-REM sleep before they reverse and REM sleep commences. Most people experience around 5 of these cycles per night.

Knowing about sleeps stages are important for bodybuilders as the stages typically follow a set pattern and to adequately recover (get a good night of sleep, and grow) ones brain must experience all of these stages.

A lack of REM and stage three and four sleep is particularly problematic because it is during these periods that the body and brain are complete rest (stages three and four) and memory consolidation occurs (REM). During stages three and four the body and brain are completely at rest due to the slowing of brain activity that occurs.

Due to the neurotransmitter acetylcholine€™s activation in the pons, which in turn activates the medulla, during REM sleep, the body becomes paralysed. This is because the medulla inhibits motor neurons and gives rise to atonia (complete immobility). Newborn babies undergo about 50% of REM sleep per night.

This level decreases as one ages, until, by adulthood, REM will account for 20-25% of sleep per night. The phenomenal growth that occurs as the baby makes the transition to childhood, then to adulthood, suggests that REM is beneficial for growth. Sleep research is not conclusive on this point but many bodybuilders will attest to the benefits of a complete night of uninterrupted sleep (8-10 hours).


The Stages


Stage One: 
Considered the transition stage between sleepfulness and wakefulness, stage one non-REM sleep is the shortest period (2-5%) of sleep in the sleep/wake cycle.
Stage Two:
Considered the baseline of sleep, non-REM sleep stage two accounts for 45-60% of sleep.

Stages Three & Four: 
Termed delta sleep, non-REM sleep stages three and four account for up to 40% of sleep time. These are the deepest stages of sleep and the most restorative for the brain.

REM Sleep:
The most active stage of sleep REM accounts for 20-25% of a normal nights sleep. Breathing, heart rate and brain activity quicken during this stage.


Getting Adequate Sleep


Often it is hard to get a good night of sleep. Even when we do fall asleep the quality of the sleep may not be sufficient. The following ways can assist in getting that good night sleep and subsequently the benefits thereof.

Never Oversleep: Oversleeping may set the bodies clock to a different cycle. This will make trying to fall asleep much harder.
Take A Warm Bath: A warm bath will sooth and relax. However, a shower will have the opposite effect so these should be avoided.
Exercise: Exercising, particularly aerobic, during the day will sufficiently tire one out and sleep will come faster at night. Intense training sessions during the late evening will have the opposite effect.
Avoid Alcohol, Caffeine & Tyrosine-Rich Foods At Night: Caffeine causes hyperactivity and wakefulness. Tyrosine- rich foods are brain stimulating and may keep one awake. Alcohol significantly disrupts sleep by interfering with the stages of sleep.
Avoid Sleeping Pills: These may work temporarily but in the long term will cause disturbed sleep patterns.
Correct Sleeping Environment: Keep your room reasonably cool (about 60 degrees). Humidity may cause disrupted sleep. A fan running or soft background music may help to relax and encourage sleep.
Make evenings relaxed, not stressful affairs.
Do not watch television in bed. This may also increase alertness. The brain may also decide that bedtime is for television watching and refuse to sleep.

Conclusion 


As research has shown, sleep is important for any reasons. For bodybuilders, sleep is particularly important as it restores brain function and alertness in preparation for intense training sessions.

Sleep also enhances muscular recovery through protein synthesis and human growth hormone release. Getting eight to ten hours of quality sleep every night will promote these factors as well as general well being. Recovery will take a backward step if one does not prioritize sleep, so get to sleep if you want to grow.


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## Built (May 23, 2011)

patrickjfanning said:


> How can you say that???  Of course it does.  If you eat 3 meals a day and then don't eat from 6pm till 8am that's 14hrs of fasting.  You body naturally slows down.  it's almost in starvation mode.  Haven't you heard of 6 small meals a day???  Why do you think that is???  Now maybe what I'm doing is a little excessive.  But I'm 45yrs old,  do no cardio for the time being.  210lbs and 12%bf and that's a high est.  And that's not my natural genetics.  I have to manipulate it...



Please do some reading before you run your mouth. 

Meal frequency does not speed up metabolism AT ALL. Nada. Zip. This has been beaten to death on this and other fora. 
Br J Nutr. 1997 Apr;77 Suppl 1:S57-70.
Meal frequency and energy balance.
Bellisle F, McDevitt R, Prentice AM.
Source

INSERM U341, Hotel Dieu de Paris, France.
http://journals.cambridge.org/downl...93a.pdf&code=5a8434660033a3f781bc6fe8a66d382c
*CONCLUSIONS AND PRIORITIES FOR FUTURE RESEARCH*

We conclude that there is robust evidence from several independent laboratories to refute the hypothesis that feeding frequency is a significant determinant of energetic efficiency in human subjects when assessed over 24 h or longer. Consequently, feeding frequency has no significant impact on the rate of weight loss during energy restriction. We further conclude that the epidemiological studies which have suggested that nibbling is associated with leanness are extremely vulnerable to methodological errors which may generate spurious relationships due to dietary under-reporting and post hoc alterations in eating patterns in response to weight gain. Although these may not totally invalidate the cross-sectional studies, they highlight the need for considerable caution in interpreting the results and point to the need for a more critical analysis in the future.

Since we conclude that *feeding frequency has no discernible effect on 24 h energy expenditure, then any putative effects on regulation of body weight must be mediated through effects on the intake side of the energy balance equation.*​
Starvation does not happen this quickly. For this, I turn to Martin Berkhan, who has likely forgotten more on the subject than I will ever know:
Top Ten Fasting Myths Debunked (Major Update Nov 4th) | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health

4. Myth: Fasting tricks the body into "starvation mode".


Truth

Efficient adaptation to famine was important for survival during rough times in our evolution. Lowering metabolic rate during starvation allowed us to live longer, increasing the possibility that we might come across something to eat. Starvation literally means starvation. It doesn't mean skipping a meal not eating for 24 hours. Or not eating for three days even. The belief that meal skipping or short-term fasting causes "starvation mode" is so completely ridiculous and absurd that it makes me want to jump out the window.

Looking at the numerous studies I've read, the earliest evidence for lowered metabolic rate in response to fasting occurred after 60 hours (-8% in resting metabolic rate). Other studies show metabolic rate is not impacted until 72-96 hours have passed (George Cahill has contributed a lot on this topic).

Seemingly paradoxical, metabolic rate is actually increased in short-term fasting. For some concrete numbers, studies have shown an increase of 3.6% - 10% after 36-48 hours (Mansell PI, et al, and Zauner C, et al). This makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. Epinephrine and norepinephrine (adrenaline/noradrenaline) sharpens the mind and makes us want to move around. Desirable traits that encouraged us to seek for food, or for the hunter to kill his prey, increasing survival. At some point, after several days of no eating, this benefit would confer no benefit to survival and probably would have done more harm than good; instead, an adaptation that favored conservation of energy turned out to be advantageous. Thus metabolic rate is increased in short-term fasting (up to 60 hours).

Again, I have choosen extreme examples to show how absurd the myth of "starvation mode" is - especially when you consider that the exact opposite is true in the context of how the term is thrown around.

Origin

I guess some genius read that fasting or starvation causes metabolic rate to drop and took that to mean that meal skipping, or not eating for a day or two, would cause starvation mode.


5. Myth: Maintain a steady supply of amino acids by eating protein every 2-3 hours. The body can only absorb 30 grams of protein in one sitting.


Truth

Whenever you hear something really crazy you need to ask yourself if it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. It's a great way to quickly determine if something may be valid or if it's more likely a steaming pile of horseshit. This myth is a great example of the latter. Do you think we would be here today if our bodies could only make use of 30 grams of protein per meal?

The simple truth is that more protein just takes a longer time to digest and be utilized. For some concrete numbers, digestion of a standard meal is still incomplete after five hours. Amino acids are still being released into your bloodstream and absorbed into muscles. You are still "anabolic." This is a fairly standard "Average Joe"-meal: 600 kcal, 75 g carbs, 37 g protein and 17 g fat. Best of all? This was after eating pizza, a refined food that should be quickly absorbed relatively speaking.

Think about this for a second. How long do you think a big steak, with double the protein intake of the above example, and a big pile of veggies would last you? More than 10 hours, that's for sure. Meal composition plays an important role in absorption speed, especially when it comes to amino acids. Type of protein, fiber, carbohydrates and prior meals eaten all affect how long you'll have amino acids released and being taken up by tissues after meals.​


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## patrickjfanning (May 23, 2011)

Hey Built.  I don't claim to know even 10% of all the info out there, okay.  But I know what works for me.  And eating 6 smaller meals worked.  I got leaner and had more energy through out the day.  So take it easy with the "running your mouth" comments.  I didn't disrespect you so please show me the same courtesy.  
Now, I'm 45yrs old and I'm raising my 16month old daughter so it's hard for me to find time for cardio.  So, I need all the help I can get to stay lean.  I have a decent 6 pack but I eat very clean and train with alot of intensity.  I'm not here to get bashed.  But for positive imput.  Thanks...


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## patrickjfanning (May 23, 2011)

Feinburgrl, I agree with every word. But for some reason about 15yrs ago my sleep patterns got screwed up. I don't sleep well. I always wake up every couple of hours. Sometimes every hr of so. I don't want to take sleeping pills. Naps are great when I can squeeze 'um in. But it seems my bodies gotten used to it. I feel well rested even when I wake 3 times a night. If you have any ideas on how to help me get uninterrupted sleep PLEASE let me know. 
But even your article suggests eating right before bed and waking to eat once a night can be beneficial.  Great info.  I appreciate it...


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## patrickjfanning (May 23, 2011)

Okay....  I'm gonna ease up on my night feeds.  I'm probably wasting some money and not allowing my body to get back to normal if it's gonna happen.  I think I'll use just casein before bed.  And wean myself down to one more maybe 5 hrs in.  I appreciate all the feedback I received.


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## LAM (May 23, 2011)

patrickjfanning said:


> Hey Built.  I don't claim to know even 10% of all the info out there, okay.  But I know what works for me.  And eating 6 smaller meals worked.  I got leaner and had more energy through out the day.  So take it easy with the "running your mouth" comments.  I didn't disrespect you so please show me the same courtesy.
> Now, I'm 45yrs old and I'm raising my 16month old daughter so it's hard for me to find time for cardio.  So, I need all the help I can get to stay lean.  I have a decent 6 pack but I eat very clean and train with alot of intensity.  I'm not here to get bashed.  But for positive imput.  Thanks...



smaller meals keep glucose levels more stable, no highs and lows from insulin spikes.  the body can also only utilize so many nutrients at once, smaller meals allow the body to partition nutrients better.


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## Built (May 23, 2011)

patrickjfanning said:


> Hey Built.  I don't claim to know even 10% of all the info out there, okay.  But I know what works for me.  And eating 6 smaller meals worked.  I got leaner and had more energy through out the day.  So take it easy with the "running your mouth" comments.  I didn't disrespect you so please show me the same courtesy.


You bet. You were the one who posted this:



patrickjfanning said:


> How can you say that???  Of course it does.  If you eat 3 meals a day and then don't eat from 6pm till 8am that's 14hrs of fasting.  You body naturally slows down.  it's almost in starvation mode.  Haven't you heard of 6 small meals a day???  Why do you think that is???  Now maybe what I'm doing is a little excessive.  But I'm 45yrs old,  do no cardio for the time being.  210lbs and 12%bf and that's a high est.  And that's not my natural genetics.  I have to manipulate it...


You're maintaining your bodyfat because you aren't overeating. Six meals or one, it makes no difference. 

Your remarks appeared rather inflammatory - hence the running your mouth comment. 

By the way, I'm 48 years old. I didn't bring this up because I didn't see the relevance. 



patrickjfanning said:


> Now, I'm 45yrs old and I'm raising my 16month old daughter so it's hard for me to find time for cardio.  So, I need all the help I can get to stay lean.  I have a decent 6 pack but I eat very clean and train with alot of intensity.  I'm not here to get bashed.  But for positive imput.  Thanks...


Excellent! Read the posts I offered. I'm not a fan of cardio either - it's too hard on our old joints. 



			
				LAM said:
			
		

> smaller meals keep glucose levels more stable, no highs and lows from insulin spikes. the body can also only utilize so many nutrients at once, smaller meals allow the body to partition nutrients better.



There is actually evidence to the contrary. Even in individuals where insulin response and carbohydrate metabolism is impaired (read: type II diabetics), intermittent fasting/larger, less frequent feedings actually improve glycemic response. 

Read Martin Berkhan's site in particular - there appear to be multiple benefits to pulsing food intake rather than keeping the "steady stream of nutrients" which has long been espoused within physical culture.


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## Chubby (May 23, 2011)

LAM said:


> smaller meals keep glucose levels more stable, no highs and lows from insulin spikes. the body can also only utilize so many nutrients at once, smaller meals allow the body to partition nutrients better.


Small frequent meal will also put body on anabolic state, no?


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## Built (May 23, 2011)

chobby192 said:


> Small frequent meal will also put body on anabolic state, no?


No more so than large, infrequent meals. Calories in, calories out.

That being said, a young man trying to pack in 6000 calories a day may find it a LOT more comfortable to eat six times a day than three!


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## Chubby (May 23, 2011)

Built said:


> No more so than large, infrequent meals. Calories in, calories out.
> 
> That being said, a young man trying to pack in 6000 calories a day may find it a LOT more comfortable to eat six times a day than three!


Does it mean when I bulk, it is good idea to eat six meals, and when I maintain or cut, it is okay to eat three meals a day,right?


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## Built (May 23, 2011)

chobby192 said:


> Does it mean when I bulk, it is good idea to eat six meals, and when I maintain or cut, it is okay to eat three meals a day,right?


Basically, yeah. When you bulk, do what you gotta do to get the food in. Cutting, you may find you're more comfortable eating three satisfying meals, than six micro-snacks. I know I am.


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## Chubby (May 23, 2011)

Built said:


> Basically, yeah. When you bulk, do what you gotta do to get the food in. Cutting, you may find you're more comfortable eating three satisfying meals, than six micro-snacks. I know I am.


Thanks, built


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## Daft205 (May 23, 2011)

I wake up during the night hungry often as well... I usually take shake right before bed, immediately upon rising and sometimes one in the middle of the night. Although as of late I just have been keeping some powerchews glutamine and bcaas on my bathroom counter and I just chew a few of each if I happen to wake- seems to help.


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## LAM (May 23, 2011)

chobby192 said:


> Small frequent meal will also put body on anabolic state, no?



insulin is the most anabolic hormone that the body produces, so technically eating is anabolic. constantly elevated insulin levels from either either eating too much or following to high a GI diet is what decreases insulin sensitivity.  this shifts nutrient partitioning from skeletal muscle to fat cells, they do not become desensitized to the effects of insulin.


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## Built (May 24, 2011)

LAM said:


> insulin is the most anabolic hormone that the body produces, so technically eating is anabolic. constantly elevated insulin levels from either either eating too much or following to high a GI diet is what decreases insulin sensitivity.  this shifts nutrient partitioning from skeletal muscle to fat cells, they do not become desensitized to the effects of insulin.



That's actually not what causes the elevated insulin levels - that part's due to an impaired first-phase insulin response. Those who have this problem oversecrete insulin in the second phase, because the first-phase response was attenuated. Because the first-phase was too low and for too long, the second phase subsequently goes too high and remains there for too long. You may be interested to note that this is because these individuals DON'T get a normal insulin response from glucose, the supposedly highest-GI of all foods. Type II diabetics may sometimes take a shot of insulin at this time, to ensure a normal response after a meal which subsequently allows the body to establish a normal second-phase response on its own. 

You may also be interested to note that a normal insulin response - that is to say, a postprandial spike, can be reinstated by administering a pre-meal preload in the form of a 50g bolus of whey protein. 

LAM, I've called you on this one before. Please read up on incretin and the two phases of insulin response. It'll save me continuing to correct you, and it'll save the newbies a lot of unnecessary confusion.


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## blergs. (May 24, 2011)

good thread!
i myself prefer 3 meals and 3 smaller snack type meals inbetween. so i guess 6 times a day.
im always hungry  and i have pritty low BF, but this is NOT genetics ad before i was not eating as well now i do and i eat 3X more yet carry alot less fat.

i dont think i could ever only eat 3 times a day unless I was forced to.


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## patrickjfanning (May 24, 2011)

Built said:


> You bet. You were the one who posted this:
> 
> 
> You're maintaining your bodyfat because you aren't overeating. Six meals or one, it makes no difference.
> ...


 Okay.  I can admit, I was wrong.  It just seemed like common knowledge.  Everything I read or heard suggested it.  You're the first person to  shoot that theory down.  I have to say, your VERY knowledgeable on the subject.  And I appreciate you sharing.  I will never stop learning.  Thanks again and much respect...


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## LAM (May 24, 2011)

Built said:


> That's actually not what causes the elevated insulin levels - that part's due to an impaired first-phase insulin response. Those who have this problem oversecrete insulin in the second phase, because the first-phase response was attenuated. Because the first-phase was too low and for too long, the second phase subsequently goes too high and remains there for too long. You may be interested to note that this is because these individuals DON'T get a normal insulin response from glucose, the supposedly highest-GI of all foods. Type II diabetics may sometimes take a shot of insulin at this time, to ensure a normal response after a meal which subsequently allows the body to establish a normal second-phase response on its own.
> 
> You may also be interested to note that a normal insulin response - that is to say, a postprandial spike, can be reinstated by administering a pre-meal preload in the form of a 50g bolus of whey protein.
> 
> LAM, I've called you on this one before. Please read up on incretin and the two phases of insulin response. It'll save me continuing to correct you, and it'll save the newbies a lot of unnecessary confusion.



yes you have...and medical studies performed on the sedentary individual are of no interest to me, they do not apply to athletes...


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## Built (May 24, 2011)

Built said:


> That's actually not what causes the elevated insulin levels - that part's due to an impaired first-phase insulin response. Those who have this problem oversecrete insulin in the second phase, because the first-phase response was attenuated. Because the first-phase was too low and for too long, the second phase subsequently goes too high and remains there for too long. You may be interested to note that this is because these individuals DON'T get a normal insulin response from glucose, the supposedly highest-GI of all foods. Type II diabetics may sometimes take a shot of insulin at this time, to ensure a normal response after a meal which subsequently allows the body to establish a normal second-phase response on its own.
> 
> You may also be interested to note that a normal insulin response - that is to say, a postprandial spike, can be reinstated by administering a pre-meal preload in the form of a 50g bolus of whey protein.
> 
> LAM, I've called you on this one before. Please read up on incretin and the two phases of insulin response. It'll save me continuing to correct you, and it'll save the newbies a lot of unnecessary confusion.





LAM said:


> yes you have...and medical studies performed on the sedentary individual are of no interest to me, they do not apply to athletes...



Then don't mention insulin resistance and fat gain, which is what I was addressing: 


LAM said:


> insulin is the most anabolic hormone that the body produces, so technically eating is anabolic. constantly elevated insulin levels from either either eating too much or following to high a GI diet is what decreases insulin sensitivity.  this shifts nutrient partitioning from skeletal muscle to fat cells, they do not become desensitized to the effects of insulin.



Your understanding of the insulin response - normal or impaired - does not appear to be your strong suit.


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## DaMayor (May 24, 2011)

patrickjfanning said:


> Okay.  I can admit, I was wrong.  It just seemed like common knowledge.  Everything I read or heard suggested it.  You're the first person to  shoot that theory down.  I have to say, your VERY knowledgeable on the subject.  And I appreciate you sharing.  I will never stop learning.  Thanks again and much respect...



A very noble response, Patrick.

Besides, that Cowgirl has quite a few bullets to shoot at rogue theories.


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## LAM (May 24, 2011)

Built said:


> Then don't mention insulin resistance and fat gain, which is what I was addressing:
> 
> 
> Your understanding of the insulin response - normal or impaired - does not appear to be your strong suit.



nor yours...the 1st phase insulin response is really only quoted in text from study on diabetics and/or the obese.  which has what to do exactly with athletes that are neither or do not have reduced glucose tolerance?


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## Built (May 24, 2011)

What's your point, LAM?


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## patrickjfanning (May 25, 2011)

DaMayor said:


> A very noble response, Patrick.
> 
> Besides, that Cowgirl has quite a few bullets to shoot at rogue theories.


Agreed.   And Thanks......


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## patrickjfanning (May 26, 2011)

DaMayor said:


> A very noble response, Patrick.
> 
> Besides, that Cowgirl has quite a few bullets to shoot at rogue theories.


 Thank you.  I'm hear to learn from others.  And maybe teach a little along the way...


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## andreaus (Jun 1, 2011)

hi guys im 50, and have a milk protein shake before bed, worked for me for the last god knows how many years ! if i wake up in the middle of the night i dont feel like anythin accept a glass of water but have my shake and oats first thing, solid meal when i get to work. as eating is one of my favourite past times i have no problem bulking the only thing is i have to watch myself at this age as losing weight is getting harder and no i dont like cardio either.


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## sharoncrunch (Jun 1, 2011)

Patrick, so weird you mentioned this because I too wake twice during the night ,hungry.

I crave protein and fat.  A protein shake and a TBSP of peanut butter gets me satisfied and back to sleep.  I eat regularly throughout the day as well.









patrickjfanning said:


> About a year ago I started drinking protein through the night.  The reason I started was two fold.  One, to speed my metabolism.  It made it much easier to reach my optimum protein mgs.  I use a standard protein shaker.  I stack 1/2 casein and 1/2 whey, 4 scoops total.  so we're talking 100 mgs of protein.  It's crazy, like clockwork I wake up at 12:30, 3am, and 5:30 starving.  I don't think I could make it through the night without it.  My metabolism is great.  On top of my 5-6 meals a day, I have 3 night time feeds.  I've never heard of anyone else doing this.  I'd love some feedback.


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## Pump4EVER (Jun 1, 2011)

casein protein hurts my stomach, i believe in having a lean meat meal such as tuna and olive oil along with some veggies.


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## rayb (Jun 1, 2011)

Good thread.  It is not easy to change our notions about reality.  There is so much emotion tied to it (ie. if this isn't true then what else isn't true).  However, I too continue to learn which requires that we be able to change our views.


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## 'Danger (Jun 3, 2011)

rayb said:


> Good thread. It is not easy to change our notions about reality. There is so much emotion tied to it (ie. if this isn't true then what else isn't true). However, I too continue to learn which requires that we be able to change our views.


 
Its easy for me.


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