# no matter what, my arms are small compared to my chest and shoulders



## clemson357 (Feb 16, 2007)

What to do?

I have tried doing a lot of arms, and tried doing a little.  I have tried high reps, I have tried low reps.  I have been doing cheat curls lately.  I have tried straight bar curls, ez-bar curls, dumbell curls, reverse curls, preacher rest curls, hammer curls.  For triceps I generally do cable pulldowns, overhead dumbell extensions, and skull crushers.

I do side dumbell raises, military press, and front ez-bar raises for deltoids.

Give me some suggestions.


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## Boost777 (Feb 16, 2007)

Try heavy rows/pullups for bi's and heavy bench, close grip, and skull crushers.


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## Bakerboy (Feb 16, 2007)

Maybe they aren't growing because they don't get enough rest. What does your program look like?


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## Arnold (Feb 16, 2007)

stop focusing on isolation movements, work on building your body through compound movements and gaining overall bodyweight and mass, you're arms will follow.


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## KelJu (Feb 16, 2007)

My arms got massive when I stopped doing isolation work. Dips and pull-ups will build up your arms nicely.


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## DOMS (Feb 16, 2007)

Prince said:


> stop focusing on isolation movements, work on building your body through compound movements and gaining overall bodyweight and mass, you're arms will follow.



I second this (though I still enjoy isolation work).  No amount of calf raises made my calves explode as much as doing Back Squat three times a week did.


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## mrmark (Feb 17, 2007)

From what I understand, the best 3 exercises for triceps (newcomers anyways) are skull crushers, closegrip bench, and dips. 

As for biceps, bar/ez bar curl and then hammer curls should be sufficient. 

Using the combination above should really help move things along... assuming that the rest of the regime is good, without overtraining, and the nutrtition is there too.


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## Uthinkso (Feb 17, 2007)

I have this same problem. I realized I was doing too much. 

Here is my routine for my tris and then bi's which are done on seperate days and done in this order. I find if I don't do dips first I cheat myself out of good dips.

Tris
Dips or close grip BP
Skull crushers
3 sets 12/8/6
Pull Downs (I avoid the rope here and use the v-grip)
12/8/6
Single arm over head extension
(this is more of a burn out deal, I go light)
15lbx12, 20x8, 25x6

Bis
Straight bar (has to be first)
12/8/6
Inclined db curls (keep your back on the bench and it burns good)
12/8/6
Cable Pull down (palms towards you, and I go heavy here)
12/8/failure
standing hammer curls
(I do these light as well, as my last burnout excercise)
20x12, 25x8, 30x6

That is what works or has been working the last month for me pretty well. I have noticed a rise in strength and stability in my bench.


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## Witchblade (Feb 17, 2007)

That is a crapload of arm work you have there, Uthinkso. For most people this would be way too much.


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## Seanp156 (Feb 17, 2007)

At MOST I do 2-3 sets of isolation work for EITHER biceps OR triceps in a given day, I don't even do both the same day.


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## CowPimp (Feb 18, 2007)

I swear that I can't recall seeing anyone with really crappy arms compared to their body.  I think most people have a distorted view of what well proportioned arms look like, and they are just having dysmorphia issues because those few with genetically gifted arms have become the "ideal."  It's nonsense.

Got any pictures?  I bet your arms are in better proportion than you think.


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## BulkBoy (Feb 19, 2007)

My friend (longtime lifting partner) used to have the same problem. He always worried about his arms, telling me "We need to do more biceps!" or, "I want to hit my Bi's and Tri's more.", I eventually talked him into focusing on compound movements and staying away from isolation (for the most part), and he has had alot of growth in his arms, not to mention massive strength and mass gains all over. You really should listen to what everyone tells you on here, read the stickies, study up on things, lift hard, eat well, rest well. This site has helped me so much it is unbelieviable.


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## blueboy75 (Feb 19, 2007)

For a change, I superset tri & bi's together for a week every now and then.  Great shock technique and the pump is awesome.


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## Uthinkso (Feb 19, 2007)

Witchblade said:


> That is a crapload of arm work you have there, Uthinkso. For most people this would be way too much.




Too much you think???? When I am done the pump is incredible my arms feel like bricks and aren't terrible flexible at all when I stretch post work out.


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## Gazhole (Feb 19, 2007)

Uthinkso said:


> Too much you think???? When I am done the pump is incredible my arms feel like bricks and aren't terrible flexible at all when I stretch post work out.



Yeah, but why would anybody want to train for decreased flexibility?

If you want to train for a pump then go for it. A pump isnt necessarily what will help put on mass though.

I stopped doing as much direct arm work about 10 months ago. My arms then were 15 1/2", and since then i have cut it down to no direct arm work at all. Its been like this for about 6 months.

My arms grew bigger by 1/4" in the first 4 months, and got to 16" when they were at their biggest. The rest of me has gotten bigger, also. 

Now im cutting down calories to lose some fat and my arms are still 15 3/4", while the rest of me hasnt hardly changed at all.

How?

COMPOUNDS, BABY!

Looking at that lot of arm work, your previous one (which had "too much" arm work) must have been 80% made up of it.

Focusing on the big lifts will do more for EVERY part of your body than isolation will. FACT.


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## AKIRA (Feb 19, 2007)

I remember camarosoupe7(is that it?) made a good quote..

Why curl 50lbs when you can row 245lbs?  The bicep is activated in both movements, only one of them is a shit load of weight.

Which movement do you think will recruit more muscular growth?


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## Uthinkso (Feb 19, 2007)

Gazhole said:


> Yeah, but why would anybody want to train for decreased flexibility?
> 
> If you want to train for a pump then go for it. A pump isnt necessarily what will help put on mass though.
> 
> ...




That was a typo, my fault. I meant that my arms are still flexible when I stretch just beaten and tired. So your saying no curls then, because as I see it thats a isolated movement. No leg press as thats an isolated movement. Is there a sticky on this that I am missing. I have always worked under the idea of isolated movements, since joining here I have heard of push/pull routines and then compound routines of which I understand little if any on either topic.


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## Uthinkso (Feb 19, 2007)

AKIRA said:


> I remember camarosoupe7(is that it?) made a good quote..
> 
> Why curl 50lbs when you can row 245lbs?  The bicep is activated in both movements, only one of them is a shit load of weight.
> 
> Which movement do you think will recruit more muscular growth?



In my line of thinking the curls would because you are isolating the bicep. With the row you are still using the bicep along with your back, shoulders, etc. The bicep doesn't get worked as hard. At least thats my view point, but I'm open to new ideas.


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## AKIRA (Feb 19, 2007)

Hmm...Ill wait for others to step in on this one.  Im too tired of this subject.


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## zootroid (Feb 19, 2007)

The rows would recruit more muscle fibers, not just because of the weight, but because of the fact that you are using more than just your bicep for this particular movement..


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## AKIRA (Feb 19, 2007)

Lets say for instance you do back and biceps on one day.

3 compounds and 1 isolation (a curling exercise).

Thats 4 movements where your bicep is working.  With volume and adequete intensity, that should be plenty for your biceps to fry.  Plus, since its on only 1 day, they can recover and not be overtrained.

Doing back and biceps on seperate days can be done, but the volume should be decreased and I dont know about you, but Id rather devote my time in the gym to other workouts that might be slacking...(LIKE GRIP!)

Dont forget, this goes for triceps as well.


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## Uthinkso (Feb 19, 2007)

AKIRA said:


> Lets say for instance you do back and biceps on one day.
> 
> 3 compounds and 1 isolation (a curling exercise).
> 
> ...




Hmm thats very interesting. I'll be honest I'm not real clear on what makes a movement isolated or compound. I mean of course there are some obvious ones, but overall I do 3 excercises per body part.


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## clemson357 (Feb 19, 2007)

I am going to do back and biceps tomorrow, probably something like this:Heavy straight bar curls - 2 sets of 6 or 8Hammer dumbell curls - 2 sets of 12Shrugs - 3 setsDeadlifts - 3 setsRows - 4 setsLat pull downs - 3 sets


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## Yanick (Feb 19, 2007)

Compound means you are using more than one joint to complete the movement.

Isolation means only one joint is being moved to complete the movement.

Compound=bench press, Isolation=Crossover
Compound=Squat, Isolation=Leg Extension
Compound=Row, Isolation=Bicep Curl

Get my drift?


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## AKIRA (Feb 19, 2007)

Uthinkso said:


> Hmm thats very interesting. I'll be honest I'm not real clear on what makes a movement isolated or compound. I mean of course there are some obvious ones, but overall I do *3 excercises per body part*.



While youre thinking about that, think about this.

Anytime you flex your elbow, your bicep is doing it.
Anytime you extend your elbow, your tricep is doing it.

SO!

Every exercise that requires either one of those movements to happen, recruits one of those arm muscles.

For instance...forget volume for a second and lets say you do 3 exercises for biceps.  For your back you do 3 exercises.  Your biceps just did 6 fucking exercises!  Now add in the volume and you may have a recipe for overtraining, thus, SMALL ARMS.

Remember, when you row, your bending your elbow = biceps
Pullups, you bend your elbow = biceps

Doesnt matter if its machines, hammer strength, cables, free weights, or the Shit Machine, your elbow will always bend making that bicep work.

Triceps are the same story but with the opposite direction.

Trust me, it took me a couple months to grasp the idea on here and with NASM.  

"You must unlearn, what you have learned."


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## Uthinkso (Feb 20, 2007)

AKIRA said:


> While youre thinking about that, think about this.
> 
> Anytime you flex your elbow, your bicep is doing it.
> Anytime you extend your elbow, your tricep is doing it.
> ...




Ok I'm starting to follow you here. So what your telling me is by doing all isolation movements like my routine posted, and do a low rep range with heavy weight. Even still due to the amount of excercise I will have small or smaller arms? Too much work for them to grow?


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## Gazhole (Feb 20, 2007)

Uthinkso said:


> Ok I'm starting to follow you here. So what your telling me is by doing all isolation movements like my routine posted, and do a low rep range with heavy weight. Even still due to the amount of excercise I will have small or smaller arms? Too much work for them to grow?



Look at it like this:

I go the IronMag gym and do bicep curls. Because the bicep is pretty much the only muscle directly involved with this exercise it gets worn out easily. My bi's are fried after 4 sets of these.

Akira comes into the gym and does Rows. This exercises uses the biceps, the shoulders, and the back. Even if his biceps get tired, the other muscles are there to pick up the slack, so the biceps in fact get more work but dont die like they did for me with the curls, because its a compound movement - everything works together to complete the lift.

Not to mention, recruiting more muscle fibers will stimulate more overall growth.

Why do Tricep Pressdown (Tris), Lateral Raise (Shoulders), and Crossover (Chest) - you can do all these in the Bench Press.

Too much isolating will burn a muscle out. Compound movements share the load.


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## Uthinkso (Feb 20, 2007)

ok so oddly enough today is back and bis for me. Using your ideas of compound movments how does this work out look.

Straight bar curl (heavy)
3 sets 12/8/6

Row 
3s 12/8/6

Hammer Curls
3s 12/8/6

Lower back machine (hard to explain, basically you sit in it and lean back against a pad and adjust the resistance) 
3s 12/8/6


Lat pull downs (palms facing me)
3s 12/8/6


then 25 minutes of cardio


Look good???? It really doesn't seem like much work to me.


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## nsr54 (Feb 20, 2007)

try some drop sets/supersets/ ect. & maybe try to pre-exhaust your arms lightly then hit them hard


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## Uthinkso (Feb 20, 2007)

nsr54 said:


> try some drop sets/supersets/ ect. & maybe try to pre-exhaust your arms lightly then hit them hard



not familiar with drops sets. an example if you please....


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## Billie7 (Feb 20, 2007)

I do Bi's and Tri's on the same day, this is what I do...

Biceps....
DB standing curl
BB standing curl
cable curls
seated BB curls
Hammer curls

Tricep's....
DB overhead Extensions
BB skull crushers
Rope pull downs


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## Uthinkso (Feb 20, 2007)

Billie7 said:


> I do Bi's and Tri's on the same day, this is what I do...
> 
> Biceps....
> DB standing curl
> ...



right thats what I might normally do with a few changes but those are all isolation movements are they not?


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## kinkery (Feb 20, 2007)

Billie7 said:


> I do Bi's and Tri's on the same day, this is what I do...
> 
> Biceps....
> DB standing curl
> ...



why so much for such a small muscle? why don't you train triceps first? they are 2/3rds of your upper arm ya know...


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## Billie7 (Feb 20, 2007)

kinkery said:


> why so much for such a small muscle? why don't you train triceps first? they are 2/3rds of your upper arm ya know...



It's just what works for me.  I know Tri's are the biggest part, but it's just the order that I like, and it's workin!...  My tri's get hit pretty good in some of the other things I do too.


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## Uthinkso (Feb 20, 2007)

this thread has also shown me that not everyone agrees on what works, but then again we are all different people.


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## Billie7 (Feb 20, 2007)

Uthinkso said:


> this thread has also shown me that not everyone agrees on what works, but then again we are all different people.



That's exactly it!...you just need to change things up and find what works for YOU!  High volume doesn't work for some and for some it does.  This has been workin for me, but I have tried full body, upper/lower body routines.  I do squat's, deadlifts, lunges, steinborn lift, Push press, plate raises, etc..  I don't JUST do Isolation, but I like doing the Isolation for my Bi's and Tri's...It's workin!..


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## nsr54 (Feb 20, 2007)

Uthinkso said:


> not familiar with drops sets. an example if you please....



It explains everything in this link. http://www.dolfzine.com/page587.htm


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## Double D (Feb 20, 2007)

Normally the more volume will work with someone who is eating their calories in excess where as if you are in a caloric deficit your body normally cant handle more volume. As far as iso lifts, they have their place and for me they are after all of the heavy lifts like, bench, oh presses, chins, pullups, etc. Best of luck.


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## AKIRA (Feb 21, 2007)

nsr54 said:


> try some drop sets/supersets/ ect. & maybe try to *pre-exhaust your arms lightly then hit them hard*



He is.  Hes doing barbell curls before compounds.


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## AKIRA (Feb 21, 2007)

Billie7 said:


> That's exactly it!...you just need to change things up and find what works for YOU!  High volume doesn't work for some and for some it does.  This has been workin for me, but I have tried full body, upper/lower body routines.  I do squat's, deadlifts, lunges, steinborn lift, Push press, plate raises, etc..  I don't JUST do Isolation, but I like doing the Isolation for my Bi's and Tri's...It's workin!..



What has worked and what could work better are different.

From 15 years old to 24 years old, I did the same old routine.  A lot of overtraining from time to time, too much volume, no balance between pushes and pulls and guess what?  I still grew!  But thats a long time for my results.  A real fucking long time.

Had I learned then what I know now, my results wouldve came quicker and my muscles wouldve been a lot leaner, stronger, and bigger.

I suppose an analogy would be pedaling a bicycle to work and driving the car.  Youll get the same results, but with the bike, youll get there slower, be exhausted when you arrive, and possibly be useless for the rest of the day. (overtraining)

People hate change and in this type of lifestyle, I cant see why.


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## Billie7 (Feb 21, 2007)

AKIRA said:


> What has worked and what could work better are different.
> 
> From 15 years old to 24 years old, I did the same old routine.  A lot of overtraining from time to time, too much volume, no balance between pushes and pulls and guess what?  I still grew!  But thats a long time for my results.  A real fucking long time.
> 
> ...




See... now this is what kinda bugg's me, just because someone has a lot of volume you automatically assume that they are overtraining.  I am not overtraining, I feel like I have worked out hard after my training, but I am not crawling to the door and dragging myself to my car!

I do all the compound lifts and have gained a lot of size and strength, especially in the last 2 years.  Just because I have day for Bi/Tri does not mean that's all I do.  To many people think that their way is the best way, it's not that simple, everyone has to find what works for them!

I have done Full body routines 3 day's a week, I've done upper/ lower body routines 4 day's a week, but now that I do 5 day's a week and have a split routine, I like it better than the others and have gained more strength and size with this routine than any other!


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## Uthinkso (Feb 21, 2007)

I've taken all of this information and looked what I do in my split routine. I do a bit of both isolation and coumpound excercises. I feel comfortable with my work in the gym and really need to focus on my diet most of all right now to see the fruits of my labor in the gym.


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## AKIRA (Feb 21, 2007)

Billie7 said:


> See... now this is what kinda bugg's me, just because someone has a lot of volume you automatically assume that they are overtraining.  I am not overtraining, I feel like I have worked out hard after my training, but I am not crawling to the door and dragging myself to my car!
> 
> I do all the compound lifts and have gained a lot of size and strength, especially in the last 2 years.  Just because I have day for Bi/Tri does not mean that's all I do.  To many people think that their way is the best way, it's not that simple, everyone has to find what works for them!
> 
> I have done Full body routines 3 day's a week, I've done upper/ lower body routines 4 day's a week, but now that I do 5 day's a week and have a split routine, I like it better than the others and have gained more strength and size with this routine than any other!



I wasnt meaning to isolate you out or call a arm day a bad idea.  Different strokes for different folks!  Its all about balance really...

However, the thread starter ran into a wall, so we might as well cover all the bases.

I am surprised no one else has chimed in..I guess people are really sick of this subject.


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## Gazhole (Feb 21, 2007)

AKIRA said:


> I am surprised no one else has chimed in..I guess people are really sick of this subject.



Aye.

I go through it every time i go to the gym and see somebody who has the balls to talk to me.

Im not a great believer in the "Find out what works for you" philosophy, though. Humans arent THAT physiologically different.


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## Billie7 (Feb 22, 2007)

Gazhole said:


> Aye.
> 
> I go through it every time i go to the gym and see somebody who has the balls to talk to me.
> 
> Im not a great believer in the "Find out what works for you" philosophy, though. Humans arent THAT physiologically different.



It's not that we are physiologically different, it's just that people respond differently to different things.  It we where all the same then we would all like the same kind of house, like the same kind of car, we would all be good at the same things.  Some people like 3 day a week full body routines and gain a lot from it, for me I didn't care for it much and was bored.  I respond better to a higher volume.  Yes, all exercise will work, it just depends on the intensity and dedication to it.   It just comes down to what you like and what you will stick with....


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## AKIRA (Feb 22, 2007)

For humor's sake, how often do you drastically change your program?

Drastically:  all exercises are different, tempo is slower/faster, less/more rests, less/more volume


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## Uthinkso (Feb 22, 2007)

I look at it like this. People learn things different ways, some are visual learners while others are more text oriented. Its the same for muscles, what works for one person may not work for another. 

Just my .02


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## Witchblade (Feb 22, 2007)

Regarding 'what works for you', I think there are some things people don't take into the equasion.

If you're going to see if something different than the scientific standard works for you, you should IMO:
- Have at least 1 year of training experience.  You can't judge what works for you if you don't have enough experience.
- Have tried at least 6 completely different programs and run them for the entire duration of the program. Otherwise, there's really no comparison.
- Keep all other variables the same. Starting a crappy program, but improving your diet might result in gains, they just don't come from the program.
- Have taken accurate measurements and/or a journal. There's no way you can judge overall progress by heart.

If you've done all that and you've really found something that works for you, more power to you. If you haven't, stick to the basics that have been proven to be successful again and again.


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## Gazhole (Feb 22, 2007)

Billie7 said:


> It's not that we are physiologically different, it's just that people respond differently to different things.  It we where all the same then we would all like the same kind of house, like the same kind of car, we would all be good at the same things.  Some people like 3 day a week full body routines and gain a lot from it, for me I didn't care for it much and was bored.  I respond better to a higher volume.  Yes, all exercise will work, it just depends on the intensity and dedication to it.   It just comes down to what you like and what you will stick with....



What we like is different - yes.

What we respond to is different, given that the training goals are the same - no.


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## Gazhole (Feb 22, 2007)

Witchblade said:


> Regarding 'what works for you', I think there are some things people don't take into the equasion.
> 
> If you're going to see if something different than the scientific standard works for you, you should IMO:
> - Have at least 1 year of training experience.  You can't judge what works for you if you don't have enough experience.
> ...



Put it better than i did, IMO.

Muchly in agreement.


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## Billie7 (Feb 22, 2007)

AKIRA said:


> For humor's sake, how often do you drastically change your program?
> 
> Drastically:  all exercises are different, tempo is slower/faster, less/more rests, less/more volume



I'm not sure if you are asking me, but if you are....why for HUMOR'S sake?  Why is what I do Humorous?

I would not say that I Drastically change my routine, but I do change the day's and mix things up about every 3-4 weeks.  I have only been on this kind of split for about 5 months.  I like it and have gained a lot and still am gaining,size and strength.  
I put in new things quite often, I like to try new lifts, I always try to shock my body.  But I just happen to really like this split, I am about to hit a goal that I have been workin on for about 5 months now. If I am still gaining size and strength and love the split then why Drastically change it?


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