# Food or Whey Protein Powder?



## rpoclt (Aug 19, 2005)

If it's possible to get enough protein from real food, is protein powder really necessary?  Is their any benefit from consuming protein from the powder vs real food?

Yesterday, I was able to get in 210 grams of protein from food - so I didn't drink any shakes.  If I can stay away from those shakes as much as possible, I will.


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## Vieope (Aug 19, 2005)

rpoclt said:
			
		

> If it's possible to get enough protein from real food, is protein powder really necessary?  Is their any benefit from consuming protein from the powder vs real food?


_Yeah. No. No.  _


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## Emma-Leigh (Aug 19, 2005)

rpoclt said:
			
		

> If it's possible to get enough protein from real food, is protein powder really necessary?


Yes it is possible and no, protein powder is not really necessary.



> Is their any benefit from consuming protein from the powder vs real food?


Whey powder does offer the benefits of being:
1. very portible and convenient
2. Simple to prepare
3. Rapidly digested and absorbed
4. High in the BCAA to aid in recovery and anabolism
5. Insulinogenic - further inhancing it's ability to aid recovery
6. It is also shown to stimulate the immune system, to have certain anti-cancer properties and to stimulate growth hormone production too.



> Yesterday, I was able to get in 210 grams of protein from food - so I didn't drink any shakes.  If I can stay away from those shakes as much as possible, I will.


Hey, if you can manage without it and if you are getting the results you desire, then you certainly do not need to worry and just keep doing what you are doing!


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 19, 2005)

Food...

And then Whey -


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## Tough Old Man (Aug 19, 2005)

rpoclt said:
			
		

> If it's possible to get enough protein from real food,


You don't really think that they have had whey protein around for 100's of years do you. Hope that answeres your questioned


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## The Monkey Man (Aug 19, 2005)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> You don't really think that they have had whey protein around for 100's of years do you. Hope that answeres your questioned


Toughy...  The sauce must be kicking in...
You are jumping right down everybody's throat -


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## Tough Old Man (Aug 19, 2005)

1) Really I wasn't trying to bash him if that's the way it looked. Only person was MuscleM4n. 
2) Strongest thing I have had today is water. My spelling should tell that! Now have a great day Monkey



			
				The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> Toughy... The sauce must be kicking in...
> You are jumping right down everybody's throat -


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## smithieaus (Aug 20, 2005)

I buy my whey in bulk and it saves me money in the long run.
Good protien sources like meat and dairy are getting quite expensive and it all ads up, especially if you are consuming 210g a day.


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## LAM (Aug 20, 2005)

rpoclt said:
			
		

> If it's possible to get enough protein from real food, is protein powder really necessary?  Is their any benefit from consuming protein from the powder vs real food?
> 
> Yesterday, I was able to get in 210 grams of protein from food - so I didn't drink any shakes.  If I can stay away from those shakes as much as possible, I will.



it is essential to use whey protein(s) for post workout.  that is the one meal where protein supplements are definetly superior than whole food protein sources


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## Tha Don (Aug 20, 2005)

LAM said:
			
		

> it is essential to use whey protein(s) for post workout.  that is the one meal where protein supplements are definetly superior than whole food protein sources


ditto

i'd also like to add that trying to eat 300-400g a day of lean proteins without any supplementation is very difficult, not only is it costly but also very time consuming, i probably get about 200g of lean protein from food sources, the rest comes from protein drinks


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## Emma-Leigh (Aug 20, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> ditto
> 
> i'd also like to add that trying to eat 300-400g a day of lean proteins without any supplementation is very difficult, not only is it costly but also very time consuming, i probably get about 200g of lean protein from food sources, the rest comes from protein drinks



But you have to realise that for the non-juicing/non-professional person, 300-400g of protein a day is really not necessary... Unless you are about 230-260 pounds of PURE muscle, then anything near that quantity of protein is really just a waste - you are simply converting it to glucose via gluconeogenesis.

And I have to disagree to a certain extent... Sure, whey protein PWO is great and it is your best option (esp if you are working out with little food in your stomach) but it is not absolutely essential...


> *Ingestion of Casein and Whey Proteins Result in Muscle Anabolism after Resistance Exercise*
> [Basic Sciences: Original Investigations]
> TIPTON, KEVIN D.; ELLIOTT, TABATHA A.; CREE, MELANIE G.; WOLF, STEVEN E.; SANFORD, ARTHUR P.; WOLFE, ROBERT R.​
> Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children and Department of Surgery, The University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, TX
> ...



Also - a mix of different protein sources may actually better - it will give you the different properties of the protein fractions...

For example, casein protein is highly anti-catabolic and could especially be important in those that are trying to retain lean mass when losing weight. 



> *Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers.*
> Demling RH. DeSanti L.​
> Annals of Nutrition & Metabolism. 44(1):21-9, 2000.
> 
> We compare the effects of a moderate hypocaloric, high-protein diet and resistance training, using two different protein supplements, versus hypocaloric diet alone on body compositional changes in overweight police officers. A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups. Mean percent body fat with diet alone decreased from a baseline of 27 +/- 1.8 to 25 +/- 1.3% at 12 weeks. With diet, exercise and casein the decrease was from 26 +/- 1.7 to 18 +/- 1.1% and with diet, exercise and whey protein the decrease was from 27 +/- 1.6 to 23 +/- 1.3%. The mean fat loss was 2. 5 +/- 0.6, 7.0 +/- 2.1 and 4.2 +/- 0.9 kg in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 +/- 1.4 and 2 +/- 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 +/- 9% for casein and 29 +/- 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate.


 
Which is why I will always come back to my suggestion of milk, combined with a WPI to increase the ratio of whey:casein, being a very good PWO mix. (And to those who say 'but it will slow digestion' - the whey protein and the casein protein are not intimately connected. They will seperate and while the casein will clot, the whey and the rest of the liquid components in the milk will continue to be digested and absorbed without a significant alteration in time).


However, if someone did not want to supplement then, as long the PRE-WORKOUT meal is non-stupid, and had sufficient carbs and protein to last through their workout, then having plain milk would be fine (+/- some other foods such as a banana or some egg whites if you wanted to increase the protein content).


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## TheUnlikelyHERO (Aug 20, 2005)

Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> But you have to realise that for the non-juicing/non-professional person, 300-400g of protein a day is really not necessary... Unless you are about 230-260 pounds of PURE muscle, then anything near that quantity of protein is really just a waste - you are simply converting it to glucose via gluconeogenesis.



There's plenty of 200-230 pound natural bodybuilders who consume way over 400-500g of protein a day, and they've gotten there by consuming over 2g/lb of bw since they were 150 pounds.  So I wouldn't call it a waste, it's working ..

And back to the topic, if you can reach your protein totals with real food then do so, but if you can't filling in the gaps with whey is just fine.


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## Akkers (Aug 21, 2005)

TheUnlikelyHERO said:
			
		

> There's plenty of 200-230 pound natural bodybuilders who consume way over 400-500g of protein a day, and they've gotten there by consuming over 2g/lb of bw since they were 150 pounds.  So I wouldn't call it a waste, it's working ..



No it's not. 500g protein + for a natural 200lb bodybuilder is the most pointless thing I've ever heard.


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## Tha Don (Aug 21, 2005)

Akkers said:
			
		

> No it's not. 500g protein + for a natural 200lb bodybuilder is the most pointless thing I've ever heard.


  

so Einstien... tell us how you build lean muscle without a high protein diet?


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## Emma-Leigh (Aug 21, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> so Einstien... tell us how you build lean muscle without a high protein diet?



Simple:
1. Lift heavy stuff using a training program that incorporates the basic principles of stimulating hypertrophy (time under tension and progressive overload in order to stimulate over-compensation... with the right balance between frequency and adequate rest)
2. Eat adequate amounts of calories for your goals.
3. Get adequate essential fatty acids for health.
4. Consume about 1-1.5g of protein per pound body weight (or 1.25-1.5g per pound LEAN mass) [and yes, those totals includes the incomplete protein you will get from grains and seeds].


Weight training, believe it or not, actually reduces a bodies requirement for protein - it makes you more efficient at processing and retaining nitrogen. And, just on that note, high protein diet also increases the rate at which you WASTE protein and once you start taking in such high quantities your is simply going to be converting most of it to glucose (gluconeogenesis)...


Don't allow yourself to be fooled. A high protein diet is not what causes you to grow - that is a huge miss conception that has been perpetuated by the supplement companies. It is the combination of training, overall calorie intake (with sufficient energy for growth) and lastly, adequate protein (which in reality is not a huge amount) that all have to be factored in.


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## buildingup (Aug 21, 2005)

i agree with no one here.
you need to -
stay up all night
be lazy with weights because lifting in itself will cause your muscles to grow in the gym
eat less protein because it makes you fart like crazy
and bath every hour to help muscle grow in size.

oh and to give you an edge over your competitors you must refrain from having sex or any sort of intimate feelings because recent studies at bullshit university show that this decreases you will to lift weights and grow muscle.


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## TheUnlikelyHERO (Aug 21, 2005)

You all can believe what you want to - I'll listen to the guys that are 200+ pounds of lean mass who swear by high protein diets.


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## Akkers (Aug 21, 2005)

Listen to me then. The human body does not need 2g/lb of bodyweight to build muscle. I've always eaten 1-1.25g of protein/lb of bodyweight and 3-3.5g carbs (carbs are one of the most anabolic things going around...) and it got me up to 250lbs no worries. So, go ahead, eat your ludicrous amounts of protein. Don't listen to me. What do I know?


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## Emma-Leigh (Aug 22, 2005)

TheUnlikelyHERO said:
			
		

> You all can believe what you want to - I'll listen to the guys that are 200+ pounds of lean mass who swear by high protein diets.


Rightio... And you don't think their million dollar deals with supplement companies have anything to do with that? 

They gain because the protein they are eating = calories and that is what counts... Yes, protein IS important, but when it comes to hypertrophy most athletic type people get enough protein (that is, they are getting something close to about 1g/pound) for good muscle growth (that is, as long as they are eating a non-stupid diet - which, as athetes, is not usually a problem).

Interestingly enough - when it comes to dieting, or at times when you are restricting your carbs, your requirements for protein does go up above this - as you want to RETAIN lean mass in the face of calorie deficiency... So something closer to the 1.5g/pound is much better.


But if you do not believe me then go and read this: here... Or this.

Or have a look at pubmed, highwire journals or any number of other journal sites and do some scientific research - you will find that most of the research suggests that intakes of about 1.6-1.8g per kg body weight (which, by the way, is 0.8g/pound weight) is enough for a person interested in hypertrophy. 

Jeezzz... I can even do some research for you:


> Nutrition, Volume 20, Issues 7-8 , July-August 2004, Pages 689-695
> 
> *Protein requirements and supplementation in strength sports *​
> 
> ...






> American Journal of Clinical Nutrition
> Volume 77, Issue 1, 1 January 2003, Pages 109-127
> 
> *Meta-analysis of nitrogen balance studies for estimating protein requirements in healthy adults*​
> ...




Here is an endurance training article (and endurance training is, oddly enough, more demanding in terms of protein requirements due to the higher rate of amino acid oxidation...):



> Nutrition
> Volume 20, Issue 7-8, July 2004, Pages 662-668
> 
> *Protein requirements for endurance athletes*​
> ...



Basically,


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## Akkers (Aug 22, 2005)

Nicely done Emma


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## TheUnlikelyHERO (Aug 22, 2005)

Has there been any scientific studies done with people eating over 2g/lb of bw to show that it is pointless (or more effective)?  From what I've seen there hasn't been any studies at all.

Also, can everyone that hasn't "succumbed" to the High Protein Myth post pictures so I can see how an alternative diet produces huge 220+ pound monsters?


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## Akkers (Aug 23, 2005)

There has been many studies, some provided in kind by Emma, that prove that excessive protein intake (excessive is regarded as 1.6g/lb of bodyweight and above) is not neccesary. 

A 'high protein diet' is actually anything that contains more than .7g protein per pound of bodyweight. A bodybuilder obvsioulsy needs more than this, the baseline being 1g/lb. Anything more than 1.6g/lb is considered excessive even by bodybuilders. Go anymore than this any your bodys ability to retain and synthesize this protein rapidly decreases. Drop the 'huge protein intake builds huge muscles' theory because its just plain bullshit, as Emma explains in post #15. There are more effective, and indeed cheaper ways to build muscle, and it continues to baffle me the amount of people that get sucked into this myth (damn money hungry supplement companies).

Just stick with 1-1.25g protein per pound of bodyweight, 3g carbs per pound of bodyweight and combine this with a workout full of heavy, moderate rep compound movements and you'll grow so much better...


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## buildingup (Aug 23, 2005)

i stick with 1gram per pound of bw cos im poor and its working well!


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