# Abortion: Yes or No



## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

Are you pro-choice or pro-life?

and please explain why?

I believe in pro-choice, I think that it's up to the mother not the government.

I do not see abortion as murder either, I do not view a fetus (in the first trimester) as a person. A fetus is a potential life or person.


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## Rusty (Jan 22, 2003)

Are you a democrate also........??

Not trying to start anything, just wondering


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

I do not really label myself either.

now answer the damn question!


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## w8lifter (Jan 22, 2003)

Prince = shit disturber


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## ALBOB (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I believe in pro-choice, I think that it's up to the mother not the government.
> 
> I do not see abortion as murder either, I do not view a fetus (in the first trimester) as a person. A fetus is a potential life or person.



I agree with Prince 100%.  You know my political leanings IPMC but on this issue I think the government needs to back off.


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## I Are Baboon (Jan 22, 2003)

Pro-choice.  I believe a woman should have the right to do as she pleases with any part of her body.  Better to terminate the pregnancy than bring an unwanted child into the world.


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by w8lifter *_
> Prince = shit disturber



LMAO

yup, I like to stir things up!


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by I Are Baboon *_
> Better to terminate the pregnancy than bring an unwanted child into the world.



exactly!


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## Rusty (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by w8lifter *_
> Prince = shit disturber




No shit....no pun intended.

As for the abortion issue, .........In the case of rape or teenage pregnancy.......I believe it is acceptable.

Now if a woman decides to have sex and gets pregnant.....She should have to bare the burdan.  In other words "you play, you pay"

And no, I don't believe the government should dictate either way.


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## irontime (Jan 22, 2003)

I agree so far. A fetus that is aborted early enough does not yet have brain development (shut up Albob) and therefore is not yet really a person, it is a living bunch of cells that is still developing. I would however rather see the kid put up for adoption, but if the kid was going to be brought into a family that is not ready for it then I think abortion should be a consideration.


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## irontime (Jan 22, 2003)

I also believe Prince should have made this into a 'poll'


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by IPMC *_
> Now if a woman decides to have sex and gets pregnant.....She should have to bare the burdan.  In other words "you play, you pay"



I understand your point here, but ultimately the child will suffer more, don't you think?


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_
> I also believe Prince should have made this into a 'poll'



naaah, I want a discussion!


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## irontime (Jan 22, 2003)

And you don't think there would have been one anyways?


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## Rusty (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I understand your point here, but ultimately the child will suffer more, don't you think?




You do have a point.  That is why this is such a touchy subject.  There are no real clear cut lines of right and wrong.  And this subject will always be a political hotbed.


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## ALBOB (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_ A fetus that is aborted early enough does not yet have brain development



I think this is one of the main sticking points to the argument.  My contention is that until the fetus can survive UN-SUPPORTED outside the womb it's not yet a baby and therefore it's not taking a life.


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## Mudge (Jan 22, 2003)

To some point I think people have the right to choose.

On a personal level though, if you do the crime do the time. If you can't wait long enough to put a condom on, or keep control of the situation however, then why are you taking away someones right to live. 

I think that abortion is the easy way out because "oh gosh, I dont have time to be a mommy, too bad I screwed that guy from the bar last night now I have to deal with an abortion."

In the case of rape, I read somewhere that rape rarely involves pregnancy (I assume this is some kind of stress/retaliation thing in women? I know this occurs even with consentual). Anyhow, that is a tough issue, and it seems almost inhuman to ask a woman to live with not only the rape, but then the thereafter pregnancy, and either keeping the child or putting it up for adoption, that is asking alot out of a person. On that note though I also think sometimes we ask for too soft a life nowdays. This is kind of why though I think overall there should be the right to choose, even though I do NOT agree with it on a personal level. Still though, I think a fetus is a living thing and can eventually become an adult, and I think its wrong to kill a living thing without it being self defense or food. Again on that note, I think eating human fetusus is also wrong and would appeal to many people as such, and just seems "off", and speaking of off, I'm off the subject...


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## irontime (Jan 22, 2003)

I just had to put in (shut up Albob) after that cause I knew you'd say I didn't have any yet either.


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## Mudge (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by I Are Baboon *_
> Pro-choice.  I believe a woman should have the right to do as she pleases with any part of her body.  Better to terminate the pregnancy than bring an unwanted child into the world.



If you dont want the child, dont take the risk. If people could keep thier dick in their pants it would make things easier wouldn't it, or put a freaking sock on it.

But no, its too hard to do isn't it, so we'll take the risk and if we have to stick a coat hanger up there to fix it then oh well. Hopefully you dont die honey, but you know I'm not ready for a child.


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## Mudge (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> My contention is that until the fetus can survive UN-SUPPORTED outside the womb it's not yet a baby and therefore it's not taking a life.



So, if someone has a life threatening disease, we should just abandon them because if they can't survive on thier own, they should die (similar to some Native American beliefs).

Still however, a baby cannot survive on its own for years until after pregnancy.


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## Rusty (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_
> I just had to put in (shut up Albob) after that cause I knew you'd say I didn't have any yet either.




Do you mean ......afterbirthBOB?


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## I Are Baboon (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> If you dont want the child, dont take the risk. If people could keep thier dick in their pants it would make things easier wouldn't it, or put a freaking sock on it.
> 
> But no, its too hard to do isn't it, so we'll take the risk and if we have to stick a coat hanger up there to fix it then oh well. Hopefully you dont die honey, but you know I'm not ready for a child.




I think most abortion clinics use tools more advanced than a coat hanger.

People are too irresponsible to take precautions, hence the abortion debate.  I'd much rather see the child born and put up for adoption, but I think it is up to the parents to decide that.


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## Stacey (Jan 22, 2003)

WELL~ My Opinion:

I believe that if I am EVER RAPED Or Something Along those lines... I would have an abortion..
but If I have WILLING sex with someone~ I should and Will face the consequences!!!  ( I would have the baby)

Abortion is horrible In my eyes, and theres tooo many teenagers/ and young women getting it, its too cheap also. I think it should cost over a thousand. I  know its around $500 here in houston. Thats just sad. 

Thats how I was raised, my opinion..and a lot of my friends feel different, sooo No pun intended 
not gonna judge anyone by their opinion..


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## Mudge (Jan 22, 2003)

Yes, largely when its illegal is when the coat hanger places show up, however I still think its dangerous.

I would not like to see a child grow up abused because of parents who cant' use protection and are shitty people, but I dont like the idea of abortion at all, so its a toughie.

Welfare aka crackbaby kids, I feel bad for kids like that. The government dishes out more money though for women that have children, the more kids the more dough. Does anyone remember the welfare list someone posted? One of them was something like (although much less intelligable), "I had a baby several months ago, so what are you going to do about it?"

The person sending in the letter obviously wasn't very good with the English skillz (not that I am either), but gee whiz, its rather sick to think of the poor kids that grow up in such an environment. Kids who grow up with nothing and no love, often dont turn out too well themselves IMO, rarely will a diamond emerge from the rubble.


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## Rusty (Jan 22, 2003)

See what you started Prince.......


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## Stacey (Jan 22, 2003)

One more thing that really pisses me off when girls/women have an abortion WHO ARE NOT RAPED~ 
Is that There are women like ME who Cannot get pregnant Easy, and who have to go through so much crap (YEARS OF CRAP) to have a baby,..and would Totally Adopt a child that was unwanted, these women need to have the child~ if you don't want it, someone else does, and would love it like their own!


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## I Are Baboon (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Princess *_
> One more thing that really pisses me off when girls/women have an abortion WHO ARE NOT RAPED~




So what's worse, terminate the pregnancy via an abortion, or have the baby, wrap it in a towel, and throw it in a dumpster?  That latter seems to be happening more and more these days.


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## Max. Q (Jan 22, 2003)

Pro-choice. No doubt about it, let the women decide.


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## ALBOB (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> So, if someone has a life threatening disease, we should just abandon them because if they can't survive on thier own, they should die (similar to some Native American beliefs).
> 
> Still however, a baby cannot survive on its own for years until after pregnancy.



The life threatening disease of an already living person is comparing apples to oranges, stick to the subject of fetuses.

You're trying to carry my fetus survival statement to the absurd, I'm talking about being able to survive without life support.  Until the fetus can survive without life-support I don't consider it a baby.  (Next you're going to try to take me to task for pre-mies and/or babies that are born with illnesses that require life support.  Again, apples and oranges.  If the baby is carried FULL term and still requires life support due to illness it is a life and should be treated as such.  I'm only talking about fetuses that are intentionally terminated berfore being able to sustain life without external support.)


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## Mudge (Jan 22, 2003)

Babies need external support until they are probably at least 3 years old, and out in the wild I'd still say, there would not be many of us around with those odds.

Help from parental units is external support in my book, no doubt about it.


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## Mudge (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Princess *_
> There are women like ME who Cannot get pregnant Easy, and who have to go through so much crap (YEARS OF CRAP) to have a baby



Have you talked to a doctor about that, or are you actively trying right now? My dad's mom was like that, he would have had an older sister but she didn't last very long, so he was kind of thier miracle baby. I know that clomid is used during certain times to beef up estrogen levels, although I think this is largely in women who have problems releasing an egg, maybe not other stuff.


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Princess *_
> WELL~ My Opinion:
> 
> I believe that if I am EVER RAPED Or Something Along those lines... I would have an abortion..
> but If I have WILLING sex with someone~ I should and Will face the consequences!!!  ( I would have the baby)



Yes, but most young teens are irresponsible and do not posess the maturity and responsibility to think and act this way.

And unfortunately they're going to have sex, and many will not use protection.

So, if we force these 13-18 year old children to have this baby is that fair to the child that is being brought into this world?


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## ALBOB (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_Help from parental units is external support in my book, no doubt about it.



Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "external".  How about if I rephrase my original statement and call it "artificial" support.  True, parental support for food, shelter, etc is external but it's also natural.  Life support equipment such as breathing devices and incubators are not natural.  Can we agree on that point?


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by IPMC *_
> See what you started Prince.......



I know, fun huh? 

the reason I started this thread is because it's Rush Limbaugh's topic today on his radio show.


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## I Are Baboon (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I know, fun huh?
> 
> the reason I started this thread is because it's Rush Limbaugh's topic today on his radio show.




And how does Mr Limbaugh feel about the topic?  (I honestly do not pay any attention to him, good or bad)


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## Rusty (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I know, fun huh?
> 
> the reason I started this thread is because it's Rush Limbaugh's topic today on his radio show.



I didn't know you listened to him.  He is still going on about it.


He tends to debate the law and not the action.


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## Stacey (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by I Are Baboon *_
> So what's worse, terminate the pregnancy via an abortion, or have the baby, wrap it in a towel, and throw it in a dumpster?  That latter seems to be happening more and more these days.



Hey you! 
I have no clue which is worse!!! Your right, that has been going on TOO much lately!! I get soo sad when I hear that on the news!!


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by I Are Baboon *_
> And how does Mr Limbaugh feel about the topic?  (I honestly do not pay any attention to him, good or bad)




I am still not sure what his exact stance is, if you have ever listened to him it sometimes takes awhile before you know exactly where *he* stands.

I would suspect that he is pro-choice just by knowing him.


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## Stacey (Jan 22, 2003)

MUDGE~ 2 doctors have told me that when I do try, it will be hard and I will have to get on a fertility pill. And they are probably right, b/c lately shits happend, and I haven't come up preggo.. HOWEVER, we will try for awhile before taking drugs


PRINCE~ I know, your right, very right, I am not gonna argue with you!! They will have sex no matter what! Sad!


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Princess *_
> PRINCE~ I know, your right, very right, I am not gonna argue with you!!




hmmmm...I think that everyone should hold this opinion! 

maybe I should put this quote in my signature!


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## I Are Baboon (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> hmmmm...I think that everyone should hold this opinion!
> 
> maybe I should put this quote in my signature!






Ohhhh boy.


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## Stacey (Jan 22, 2003)

LMAO @ You Prince~~ ya goober!


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## Tboy (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> the reason I started this thread is because it's Rush Limbaugh's topic today on his radio show.



I'm supprised that you listen to Rush...

not a slander or anything.  It's just usually people that are for abortion, against  guns, God have a hard time listining to him.


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

well, funny you say that cause I am for abortion and against guns!


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## mmafiter (Jan 22, 2003)

I'm pro-choice, but I'm a little uncomfortable when people say "It's the woman's choice, let her decide." Didn't it take two people two create the fetus?  Shouldn't the father have a say in this at all?

I know I would be very upset if a condom broke or something and I didn't want the woman to have the kid, and she decided to keep it. I'm forced to be a father! If she aborts, then once again, she's enforced her will! Maybe I wanted a baby?

Also, for the pro-lifer's, I'd like to ask. Wouldn't it be better to abort the fetus rather than bring a child into a world where it wasn't wanted? What kind of a life do you think that kid will have?


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## Tboy (Jan 22, 2003)

OK here is my say on it.   IT'S WRONG!  (supprised?)

Some people have more compassion over the way Mickie D's raises and kills their chickens than, the way people have disposable babies.


Next topic:  Human cloning


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

Yes, it should be a joint decision, however since it's her body we are ultimately forced to deal with her decision.

that is exactly why I am pro-choice/pro-abortion, it's not fair to the children.


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## Tboy (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by mmafiter *_
> Also, for the pro-lifer's, I'd like to ask. Wouldn't it be better to abort the fetus rather than bring a child into a world where it wasn't wanted? What kind of a life do you think that kid will have?



What happened to responisbility?  Give the child away for adoption.  My sister has been waiting for a baby to adopt for quite sometime. 

There are other options... like Don't have sex.   Or don't have Sex, or dont have SeX.  

I think rape or incest may be different.


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## Rusty (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> well, funny you say that cause I am for abortion and against guns!




Not to change the subject on you, but why are you against guns?


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> OK here is my say on it.   IT'S WRONG!  (supprised?)
> 
> Some people have more compassion over the way Mickie D's raises and kills their chickens than, the way people have disposable babies.



so, you say you're compassioniate about human life, right? then where is your compassion for this baby that will be brought into this world who will be unwanted and will most likely have an inferior life due to it's immature and iresponsible teen parents?


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by IPMC *_
> Not to change the subject on you, but why are you against guns?



let's not change the subject...if you do a search we had a gun thread a while back.


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## Tboy (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> so, you say you're compassioniate about human life, right? then where is your compassion for this baby that will be brought into this world who will be unwanted and will most likely have an inferior life due to it's immature and iresponsible teen parents?




Does that still make it right to kill it?


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## Mudge (Jan 22, 2003)

Rush, pro-choice? I would be shocked if he would say that out loud.

Taking away a citizens right to own guns is leaving it for the cops and drug dealers/gangsters to own, where does that leave is, in the f'ing middle of it all.


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## Tboy (Jan 22, 2003)

I dont think Rush is pro-choice.


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> Does that still make it right to kill it?



well, that is the philiosophical aspect of this debate that will _never_ be agreed upon. 

what are you killing? if you view a fetus as a "potential life" you're not killing anything, just terminating the potential of a life, and that's how I view it.


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> I dont think Rush is pro-choice.



what is he, I still have yet to hear his exact stance on this.


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

ahhh...you're correct:

_Limbaugh alleges that abortion isn???t about the individual rights of a mother, and that women can???t be allowed to do whatever they want with their bodies. His rationalization: ??????Can a woman choose to steal, using her own body? Of course not. Can she choose to do drugs? Not according to the law. Can she legally choose to be a prostitute? Again, no, which establishes, as does the drug example, that there is precedent for society determining what a woman can and can???t do with her body.?????? _


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## ALBOB (Jan 22, 2003)

Along those same lines, suicide is illegal. 

(Though I've always wondered how they'd punish you if you were found guilty.  )


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> Along those same lines, suicide is illegal.
> 
> (Though I've always wondered how they'd punish you if you were found guilty.  )



LMAO!

so, what is the charge for attempted suicide?


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

btw, I do not always listen to Rush, nor do I agree with many of his opinions. I listen because he is very knowledgeable on many topics, especially politics, and it's a good way to gain insight on many things, especially current events.


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## Rusty (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I listen because he is very knowledgeable on many topics, especially politics, and it's a good way to gain insight on many things, especially current events.




Agreed.......


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## irontime (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> so, what is the charge for attempted suicide?


Death by be-heading.


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## Mudge (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> _Again, no, which establishes, as does the drug example, that there is precedent for society determining what a woman can and can???t do with her body.??????
> _




Really there are alot of things we can't do with our bodies, but if you want to drink yourself into the ground and smoke yourself, your family and friends to death go right ahead.


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Really there are alot of things we can't do with our bodies, but if you want to drink yourself into the ground and smoke yourself, your family and friends to death go right ahead.



that is not my thinking, it's Rush Limbaugh's.


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## mmafiter (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> What happened to responisbility?  Give the child away for adoption.  My sister has been waiting for a baby to adopt for quite sometime.
> 
> There are other options... like Don't have sex.   Or don't have Sex, or dont have SeX.
> ...



I agree you should be responsible, but asking people to not have sex isn't going to work. People are sexual beings and in our culture everything is sold using sex. The message our children/teens recieve is that sex is fun and they should do it. Nothing about responsibility, 1:00am feedings, diaper changing, colic, child poverty, etc. This is wrong, but it won't ever change, ever. Too much money is at stake too worry about morals.

As for the people waiting to adopt, why can't they find a child to adopt? Usually there are waiting lists of children looking for homes, but most people only want to adopt a baby. And a particular "type" of baby at that. I'm not saying this is the case with your sister, but I find this tactic against abortion frustrating. Many pro lifers say that the fetus shouldn't be aborted and someone will adopt it, but when you ask them if they have adopted any underpriveledged kids they say "Oh no!"

Or they only want a baby, without any health problems, of the same race, etc. Yet there may be a 6 or 7 year old kid sitting in foster care that nobody wants because he has been screwed up mentally by unfit parents.


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## ZECH (Jan 22, 2003)

Pro Life! I think when a baby is conceived, there is life. Many people will argue that point. I think this has alot to do with the way you believe(religion thread). And Prince noted that teenagers were too irresponsible. Well they were irresponsible when they had sex too. Where does it stop? I agree with IPMC. You do the deed, you need to take responsibility. Too many people in this country today don't face up to their responsibility. Too damn sad!!


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## cornfed (Jan 22, 2003)

Holy sh!t, I'm not touching this trip-wire 

I'd rather play hokey-pokey w/ a claymore mine's trigger


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## ZECH (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by mmafiter *_
> 
> Or they only want a baby, without any health problems, of the same race, etc. Yet there may be a 6 or 7 year old kid sitting in foster care that nobody wants because he has been screwed up mentally by unfit parents.


Those kids are very special in their own way and deserve to be loved just like any other human being, maybe more. Would it make life more difficult? Sure it would.


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## coleman (Jan 22, 2003)

i am pro-choice.

i believe it is unfair on the child to be punished for his mother's irresonsibility. i also believe in youthinasia


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## Dr. Pain (Jan 22, 2003)

I'm not voicing an opinion....but wwas wondering were 'Late term' abortion plays ito this discussion, if at all? 

DP


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## dino (Jan 22, 2003)

Pro-choice, and that's as far as I will answer this one!


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## Tboy (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Dr. Pain *_
> I'm not voicing an opinion....but wwas wondering were 'Late term' abortion plays ito this discussion, if at all?
> 
> DP




For me, You get into when would it be to late to abort.  As the baby comes out?  6 months down the road?  30yrs later?  What would be the differance in you or I aborting one of our children after we've had them around awhile and decide we didn't wan't them?  Whats the difference in 1 day and 30 days?  3 months?

Is it to late to abort Prince or Dero?


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## BUSTINOUT (Jan 22, 2003)

I'm with Cornfed on this deal. lol  But I am by no mean neutral on the subject either.  But I do have a few questions out of curiosity.  Bear in mind, I'm not making jundgement, just asking the question...

I'm curious how many people can look in their own child's eyes and say it is okay to commit this act. 

As for the argument of teenagers having the abortion simply because the likelyhood of them being responsible about sex is not realistic.  This is insane.  Think about it.  We are teaching them that there are no consequences for their actions.   You don't want ot have a baby as a teenager?  Tough shit.  Like Princess said, put it up for adoption.  Again, this is regarding teenage pregnancies and abortions.  As for abortions limiting the number of kids thrown in trashcans.  I don't see this as a viable argument.  Many of those instances don't have money for they trailer rent, much less an abortion.

It has always amazed me though how we justify things when we cannot step up and take responsibility for our actions.  I bet nearly every one of us here are glad at least one of our parents was willing to take on some responsibility.


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## ZECH (Jan 22, 2003)

The problems with teenagers today are the parents not taking responsibility to raise the children correctly!!


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## kuso (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by coleman *_
> i also believe in youthinasia



I`m not sure if you are joking or not  but its euthanasia....and another whole topic


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## ZECH (Jan 22, 2003)

This has really got me hot...................hell I see it everyday with the drug dealers on the corners, the prostitutes walking the streets. Where the hell are the parents??


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## irontime (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> For me, You get into when would it be to late to abort.  As the baby comes out?  6 months down the road?  30yrs later?  What would be the differance in you or I aborting one of our children after we've had them around awhile and decide we didn't wan't them?  Whats the difference in 1 day and 30 days?  3 months?
> 
> Is it to late to abort Prince or Dero?


The difference is development. After a baby is developed and has a brain and other functions then it is a human being and not just a fetus. (as cold as that sounds) 

And sorry. Prince and Dero are developed (not sure into what though   ) and are considered human beings


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## BUSTINOUT (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_
> The difference is development. After a baby is developed and has a brain and other functions then it is a human being and not just a fetus. (as cold as that sounds)



Again, this is a matter of opinion.  Not saying it is wrong opinion.  Just that there are two schools of thought on the topic.


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## kuso (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_
> 
> 
> And sorry. Prince and Dero are developed (not sure into what though   ) and are considered human beings



I noticed though BO, you didn`t say this was just a matter of opinion


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## BUSTINOUT (Jan 22, 2003)

I'll have to think about that one. LOL


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## kuso (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> I'll have to think about that one. LOL



Another new topic up for debate maybe??


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## ragingbull (Jan 22, 2003)

Holy Crap Prince,

I've been out for four, count them one, two, three, four, FOUR hours. I come back home and what do I see. Freak'n 380 reads and 80+ post to an abortion thread. Anyway.......

I think it is a little odd how many of the post describe abortion as having mercy on this child. This poor child who will never be loved, never cared for, and never given a chance.  This may be a revelation to some but.....ever child deserves a chance at life.So, in having mercy for you, my fetus, I will kill you. interesting.(IMO). 

These are the questions I wonder about since Roe V Wade.
1. Which abortion would have had the cure to cancer?
2. Which abortion would have been our countries leader?
3. Which abortion would have cure for AIDS?
There are hundreds more.

What I think this argument boils down to is adults doing away with their mess by making another. There is tons of research done on mothers who have had abortions and the psychological ramifications of it. 

IMO-This is not a fetus issue, this is a human issue. A fetus is human when it has human DNA. which is at inception. 

JUST MY OPINION.


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## Stickboy (Jan 22, 2003)

Personally, I am Pro-life.  I believe that life is created at conception, and that it is morally wrong to have an abortion.

BTW, this topic is a powder keg.


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> well, that is the philiosophical aspect of this debate that will _never_ be agreed upon.
> 
> what are you killing? if you view a fetus as a "potential life" you're not killing anything, just terminating the potential of a life, and that's how I view it.



a few of you here failed to read or acknowledge this post I made (see my quote).


this whole argument boils down to *is a fetus a person?* that is the philosophical debate at hand that has no right or wrong answer.

or is a fetus a "potential person"?


and how exactly do you define a person? 

is a seed a plant?
is a an egg a chicken?


at what point is the fetus a person? 

right at conception? 
or once there is consciousness? 


if you have ever taken a philosophy course in ethics there are very strong arguments on both sides of this argument, and no matter what it will remain a philosophical debate because there is no black and white answer.


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## Mudge (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> that is not my thinking, it's Rush Limbaugh's.



Well no deh? LoL, I know man...



> _*Originally posted by mmafiter *_
> I agree you should be responsible, but asking people to not have sex isn't going to work. People are sexual beings and in our culture everything is sold using sex. [/b]



Ah hah, but how did we get here. This is not my fancy car, this is not my beautiful wife.... oops, eh, so that is saying since were "stuck" here now with a lazy society and weak parenting, we should just let things fly and treat irresponsibility as OK. Do you tell your kids that its ok because the rest of society is in the hell hole? I am guessing not   Sure, on some level its not going to work, but damn if the parents can get to the kids first and not avoid being a parent, that would freaking help. Its a shame that TV and society raise the kids now because we went downhill VERY fast over the last 100 years.


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## Mudge (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Dr. Pain *_
> I'm not voicing an opinion....but wwas wondering were 'Late term' abortion plays ito this discussion, if at all?
> 
> DP



I for one can't understand, how seeing a 6 month baby on a plate waiting to get eaten wouldn't sicken them. Why? Because a baby is just a 'thing' to people like that, not a human being, one of thier own, how the connection doesn't get made in someone elses brain like our own sometimes we dont understand, and it shocks us.

Just as much as I can't understand going at a full term baby with a coat hanger does not drop your stomach to your knees, it seems sick on the level of irresponsibility, but sure you can get off the hook no problem, come into my office and I'll fix that one night stand for you. I think pro-choice is a misnomer of its own, because I think you are speaking on someone elses behalf as well, someone who has no voice.


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## Mudge (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Stickboy *_
> BTW, this topic is a powder keg.



It doesn't have to be, I think everyone is being quite civil so far, I'm not red in the face and I'm still glad to be here.


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## Rissole (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by w8lifter *_
> Prince = shit disturber


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## butterfly (Jan 23, 2003)

I'm totally pro-choice... in the sense that a woman should have the right to make decisions without interference from the government.

BUT... I DO believe abortion is murder unless there is a life threatening situation to the mother.


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by butterfly *_
> BUT... I DO believe abortion is murder unless there is a life threatening situation to the mother.



so, if that's what you believe would it not still be murder?

and why is the mother's life more important than the unborn child's life?


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## cornfed (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> I'm with Cornfed on this deal. lol  But I am by no mean neutral on the subject either.  But I do have a few questions out of curiosity.  Bear in mind, I'm not making jundgement, just asking the question...


Wow, we agree on even more than I thought


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## cornfed (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by coleman *_
> i am pro-choice.
> 
> i believe it is unfair on the child to be punished for his mother's irresonsibility. i also believe in euthanasia


Well look out Dero and Oldbob


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## ALBOB (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> Well look out Dero and Oldbob



DAMN, gonna have to change my address again.


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## butterfly (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> so, if that's what you believe would it not still be murder?
> 
> and why is the mother's life more important than the unborn child's life?



I had to have 2 D&Cs last year which are essentially abortions... doc said I could wait and see if my body would miscarry own it's own but then I ran the risk of hemorraging which could cause other problems, like even death.

Even though those pregnancies weren't meant to be, I know those little embryos had souls... I could feel them with all my being.  Most men just can't understand that.

It's such a personal decision to make.  I've never judged a woman on her choice to keep a baby, give him/her up for adoption or even getting an abortion.  I don't have to agree with someones choice... I just agree that they should have the right to make it.


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by butterfly *_
> Even though those pregnancies weren't meant to be, I know those little embryos had souls... I could feel them with all my being.  Most men just can't understand that.




I am sorry to hear that you went thru that.

but, you avoided my question: If the mother's life is at risk then it's okay to "murder" the unborn child? Why?


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## Freeman (Jan 23, 2003)

http://quoi.freeservers.com/post_sounds/D2K/babies.wav


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## cornfed (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> but, you avoided my question: If the mother's life is at risk then it's okay to "murder" the unborn child? Why?


Think on this one... mother is under and the husband has to decide    .   I've seen that 1 1st-hand.


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## butterfly (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I am sorry to hear that you went thru that.
> 
> but, you avoided my question: If the mother's life is at risk then it's okay to "murder" the unborn child? Why?



Not sure I have the kind of answer you are looking for.  It just seems the logical thing to save the mother's life because 1) she could have more children and 2) she may already have other children that need her.

Being a mother myself, I'm not so sure I would want to live if I lost my child but I think it would be even harder on the child to have lost his mother... some might even go through life feeling guilty for "causing" his mother's death.

I don't believe one life is any more valuable then the other.  It would be a tough call!


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## butterfly (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> Think on this one... mother is under and the husband has to decide    .   I've seen that 1 1st-hand.



Guess that's something expecting parents should talk about it before hand.


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

so, what if the mother were single, had no other children, and it has already been determined that after this pregnacy it is impossible for here to have more children? (hypothetical speaking here)

then do we save the unborn child and sacrifice the mother, or is the mother's life still more important?



(btw, I am just trying to stir up some philosophical shit here.  )


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## butterfly (Jan 23, 2003)

Like I said... I don't see one life as being more important than the other esp. in the situation you described.


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

so, you flip a coin?


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## cornfed (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> (btw, I am just trying to stir up some philosophical shit here.  )


Damn, you're doin it now


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## cornfed (Jan 23, 2003)

Oh, and have any of you listened to the Dream Theater song ... #4 on their latest CD... it's about stemcell research... "...Life to save life..."


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

should I change my user title to Shit Disturber?


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## cornfed (Jan 23, 2003)

He!! yes


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## butterfly (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> so, you flip a coin?



I'm saying that I don't know what I'd do if I were in that situation.

What would you do?


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

well, seeing as I do not have a problem with abortion, I would save the mother. 

I would not have to think twice on that decision.


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## butterfly (Jan 23, 2003)

I'm assuming you mean before the mom ever goes into labor, right.

What would you do if she was in labor and a choice had to be made between her or the baby?


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

the mother.

that would make the decision very difficult and hard to live with, but I would still save the mother, don't ask why I just would. 

I guess I would have a harder time living with the fact that I let my wife die, someone that I love and cherish, and have spent many years with and consider to be a huge part of my life.  

Maybe that is a selfish decision and reasoning.


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## irontime (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I guess I would have a harder time living with the fact that I let my wife die, someone that I love and cherish, and have spent many years with and consider to be a huge part of my life.
> 
> Maybe that is a selfish decision and reasoning.


I agree %100 with ya. A baby still does not have a personality or provide the attatchment that comes with making a relationship with someone. It would be a sad loss but at least if you still have the mother and you wanted to, you could try again.


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## david (Jan 23, 2003)

pro choice w/ stipulations


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## Tboy (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> the mother.
> 
> that would make the decision very difficult and hard to live with, but I would still save the mother, don't ask why I just would.



Why would it be a hard decision if you believe in abortion?

I don't believe in abortion but the choice for me would still be the same.  If it came down to the finish and the choices were the mother or the baby... I'd choose the mother.  

I really don't think that it would even be a choice.  I would make the choice then ask for forgivness.


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## ZECH (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by butterfly *_
> I had to have 2 D&Cs last year which are essentially abortions... doc said I could wait and see if my body would miscarry own it's own but then I ran the risk of hemorraging which could cause other problems, like even death.
> 
> Even though those pregnancies weren't meant to be, I know those little embryos had souls... I could feel them with all my being.  Most men just can't understand that.
> ...


I can somewhat understand B! As much as I can anyway. My wife had two D&C's last year also. One was trying to miscarry and the other did not have a heart beat at 10 or 12 weeks. I know the feelings and hormones way well!!


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## ZECH (Jan 23, 2003)

She also had a miscarriage and D&C before we had the two we've got. So she has a history and feels just like you do as far as the child having a soul and being a human being.
BTW that was early spring and summer and it took the rest of the year to get her hormones straight!


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> Why would it be a hard decision if you believe in abortion?
> 
> I don't believe in abortion but the choice for me would still be the same.  If it came down to the finish and the choices were the mother or the baby... I'd choose the mother.
> ...



If your wife were six months pregnant and the doctor said that if the baby is not *aborted* the mother will die.

ummm...isn't that abortion?

hence, it would not be a difficult decision for me because I do not have a problem with abortion.



Do I really post my stances and opinions so unclearly that people make me re-post what I have already said?


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## Tboy (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> If your wife were six months pregnant and the doctor said that if the baby is not *aborted* the mother will die.
> 
> ummm...isn't that abortion?
> ...




Hmmm... No usually you quite clear.   Just your last post has you contridicting yourself.  

You first said that it would be a difficult decision.  Now you say it's not.  

The latter I believe.  The first I was questioning.


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## ALBOB (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> Hmmm... No usually you quite clear.   Just your last post has you contridicting yourself.
> 
> You first said that it would be a difficult decision.  Now you say it's not.



Sorry Prince, I gotta agree with Tboy here, you had me confused too.


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

ahhh...let me clarify:

It would be difficult if my wife were in labor and I had to say let the baby die, but I would not have to think twice about what the decision would be. I just meant it would be hard to stand there and say let the baby die, it would hurt, that's what I meant by a difficult decision.

As far as believing in abortion I was meaning that if we were talking about aborting the baby before labor ever took place I would not have a problem with that decision.

You're right though, we had a couple of different scenerios going on here with abortion, and I think my posts started to get confusing, or I forgot which scenario I was responding to.


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## Tboy (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> Sorry Prince, I gotta agree with Tboy here, you had me confused too.



Hey!  Somebody agreed with me!  

Boy,  Now where do I go from here?


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## Tboy (Jan 23, 2003)

> Do I really post my stances and opinions so unclearly that people make me re-post what I have already said?





Prince +   =


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## ALBOB (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_Boy,  Now where do I go from here?



Bad news Tboy, once I agree with you, you're as high as you're gonna get.  There's no other place to go but down.


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## Tboy (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> Bad news Tboy, once I agree with you, you're as high as you're gonna get.  There's no other place to go but down.




Dang,  And I thought this was going to to be a good day.


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

Tboy what image are your trying to display?


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## cornfed (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> Bad news Tboy, once I agree with you, you're as high as you're gonna get.  There's no other place to go but down.


I beg to differ, but that's cause I knows ya


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## Tboy (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Tboy what image are your trying to display?




You guys can't see it?

Kinda ruins the joke huh?


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## ALBOB (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> I beg to differ, but that's cause I knows ya


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

oh, I can add that "smiley" to the board.


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

there


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## Tboy (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> there



Sure take away my uniqueness.  Now everyone'll be using it.


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## irontime (Jan 23, 2003)

Yup


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## ALBOB (Jan 23, 2003)

Wow cool smiley Prince, where'd ya' find it?


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## Tboy (Jan 23, 2003)




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## ragingbull (Jan 23, 2003)

Prince,
I guess what this is coming to is, is a fetus a meanful life. 

We know what constitutes life (according to biology).
1. Is it growing
2. Is it metabolizing
3. Is it reproducing (cell reproduction)

All three apply to a fetus

A fetus is also as genetically human as it ever will be, from inception.

So, your saying because a baby is not born, doesn't contribute to our society, and is dependant for life, it is not meaningful.

My question than is, what will our country do with our baby boomers when they are elderly. Our medicare and medicaid systems are almost bankrupt as they are and will only get worse as time goes on.  Will you choose to eliminate our elderly because they are not contributing to society and  are dependant for survival. When they offer no value to our economic system, they impose significant cost to our government, will you choose to eliminate them?

I see these two issues as the same.


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## ZECH (Jan 23, 2003)

Might as well close this too.....................because when someone post a thread and people don't agree, it gets closed!


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## coleman (Jan 23, 2003)

it's cause ppl get fired up just because someone doesn't agree with them.


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## ZECH (Jan 23, 2003)

Then they shouldn't post it if they can't take the heat!


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## ragingbull (Jan 23, 2003)

Hey, I don't get fired up, I just think that it's interesting how we sometimes compartmentalize things in our lives for our convience.
Like Prince, I'm just asking question so I know where people are coming from and where they base their moral ground. 

Just information gathering....That's all.......A little info......


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## ragingbull (Jan 23, 2003)

*HEY GUYS CHECK OUR THE NEW SMILEY*

        

Prince, where did you find the new one?

Never saw it here before....

......way to much time on my hands!


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

Damn, you guys like to argue with me! 


Is a fetus a person?

No, I already said that I view it as a potential person. It is not fully developed, it's not conscious and does not think, it does not breathe, it is fully dependant on it's mother for life, and it's feeds thru an umbilical cord.

What it really comes down to is how do you define the essence of a person? Do you define it thru biology, or do you have other criteria of what qualifies something to be classified as a person?

That is my opinion, you do not have to agree with me and no matter how we disect this argument it's a moral issue that has no right or wrong answer.


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## Freeman (Jan 24, 2003)

I wanna put babies on spikes!


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## Tboy (Jan 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by freeman1504 *_
> I wanna put babies on spikes!




Go here  

www.babysonspikes.com


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## Tboy (Jan 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_




Heres the one I was trying to do....  Mabye Prince'll add this one also


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## urso8up (Jan 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by IPMC *_
> 
> 
> 
> Now if a woman decides to have sex and gets pregnant.....She should have to bare the burdan.  In other words "you play, you pay"



I agree with this 100%
My soon to be Ex-wife called the other day and told me she was pregnant. Na d she didn't want the person who was involved with her in her life anymore so she is going to look into an abortion. I


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## butterfly (Jan 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> She also had a miscarriage and D&C before we had the two we've got. So she has a history and feels just like you do as far as the child having a soul and being a human being.
> BTW that was early spring and summer and it took the rest of the year to get her hormones straight!



Tell your wife there is someone else out there who knows her pain.

I think I'm still trying to get my hormones in line


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## butterfly (Jan 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Might as well close this too.....................because when someone post a thread and people don't agree, it gets closed!



Why would Prince close this thread  he started it and for the sole purpose of disturbing the shit... hence his new title.

We just like to debate issues.

BTW, I agree with you Prince...



> That is my opinion, you do not have to agree with me and no matter how we disect this argument it's a moral issue that has no right or wrong answer.


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## ALBOB (Jan 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> Go here
> 
> www.babysonspikes.com



Now THAT's just cruel.  

You're gonna fit in great around here.


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## irontime (Jan 24, 2003)

You bastard! That was wrong!


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## Tboy (Jan 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_
> You bastard! That was wrong!




Admit it... you got a stiffie didnt ya???


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## ZECH (Jan 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by butterfly *_
> I think I'm still trying to get my hormones in line


Poor Fade!!!!!


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## irontime (Jan 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> Admit it... you got a stiffie didnt ya???


Well maybe a bi.... NO! HELLL NO!!!!!!


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