# Fighting Back Against Wretched Wages



## Bowden (Jul 28, 2013)

*Entire article at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/28/sunday-review/fighting-back-against-wretched-wages.html?hpw&_r=0

Fighting Back Against Wretched Wages*

*By STEVEN GREENHOUSE*

*Published: July 27, 2013*

OFTEN relegated to the background, Americas low-wage workers have been  making considerable noise lately by deploying an unusual weapon one-day strikes to make their message heard: they're sick and tired of  earning just $8, $9, $10 an hour.

 Their anger has been stoked by what they see as a glaring disconnect:  their wages have flatlined, while median pay for chief executives at the  nation's top corporations jumped 16 percent last year, averaging a  princely $15.1 million, according to Equilar, an executive compensation analysis firm.        

In recent weeks, workers from McDonalds, Taco Bell and other fast-food  restaurants many of them part-time employees  have staged one-day  walkouts in New York, Chicago, Detroit and Seattle to protest their  earnings, typically just $150 to $350 a week, often too little to  support themselves and their families. More walkouts are expected at  fast-food restaurants in seven cities on Monday. Earlier this month  hundreds of low-wage employees working for federal contractors in  Washington walked out and picketed along Pennsylvania Avenue to urge  President Obama to press their employers to raise wages.        

Ana Salvador, who earns $10 an hour after 10 years working at the  McDonald?s inside the National Air and Space Museum, wrote Mr. Obama to  say that she did not earn enough to support her four children, adding  that her family relied on food stamps and Medicaid. Another striker,  Karla Quezada, who has worked at the Subway inside the Ronald Reagan  Building for 11 years, said that while her employer made ?lots of money  off of my work, I still only make $9.50 an hour. This is higher than  the $7.25-an-hour federal minimum wage as well as the District of  Columbia's $8.25 minimum many states have minimums above the federal  level but it isn't much after more than a decade on the job. In a  speech in Galesburg, Ill., last Wednesday aimed at bolstering the middle  class, Mr. Obama called for raising the minimum wage.        

 Many low-paid workers feel their employers have put an invisible ceiling  on their wages, with little prospect of ever making more than $10 or  $11 an hour, as corporations have focused on keeping wages competitive  and maximizing profits to benefit shareholders. The richest Americans  have benefited mightily from corporate Americas record profits and the  stock markets repeated highs.        

 Corporate America has embraced many strategies to slice labor costs.  Many Walmart stores as part of a new strategy to save on wages and  benefits are hiring only temps to fill job openings. Scores of  companies are relying increasingly on part-timers, who typically get  paid several dollars less per hour than full-timers.        

 Caterpillar has pioneered two-tier wage systems, in which workers hired  after a certain date are consigned to a significantly lower wage scale  than others, and it recently pressed its longer-term employees into  accepting a six-year wage freeze. Many Caterpillar workers ask why the  company insisted on a pay freeze when it reported repeated record  profits  $5.7 billion last year, amounting to $45,000 per Caterpillar employee.        

Caterpillars chief executive, Douglas Oberhelman (whose compensation  has increased more than 80 percent over the last two years), says the  freeze was vital to keep wages competitive with rival companies. I  always try to communicate to our people that we can never make enough money, he recently told Bloomberg Businessweek. We can never make enough profit.


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## Little Wing (Jul 28, 2013)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/briansolomon/2013/07/24/the-wal-mart-slayer-how-publixs-people-first-culture-is-winning-the-grocer-war/2/


Walmart Losing To Quirky Florida Based Publix - Employee Owned Company Touted By Forbes As 'Wal-Mart Slayer' -


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## LAM (Jul 28, 2013)

a consumer/consumption based economy will cease to function when money no longer circulates and wealth is accumulated in the hands of the few....this is both history and economics 101


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## dogsoldier (Jul 28, 2013)

It is Bush's fault.


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## bdad (Jul 28, 2013)

Bowden said:


> *Entire article at:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/28/sunday-review/fighting-back-against-wretched-wages.html?hpw&_r=0
> 
> ...



To those employees with glaring disconnect.  Due to the  fact that  your job does not pay what you would like, use this as incentive to earn youreself a better paying job.


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## troubador (Jul 28, 2013)

Bowden said:


> Many low-paid workers feel their employers have put an invisible ceiling  on their wages, with little prospect of ever making more than $10 or  $11 an hour



Yeah not like the golden days when flipping burgers meant you could afford a two story house and a swimming pool.


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## LAM (Jul 28, 2013)

troubador said:


> Yeah not like the golden days when flipping burgers meant you could afford a two story house and a swimming pool.



it's funny to hear you right wingers complain about people being in poverty but see no problem with profitable firms paying poverty wages...do all of you have brain damage?  did you eat to much lead based paint chips when you were young or what?


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## Little Wing (Jul 28, 2013)

Fashion Victims | Watch Free Documentary Online

more and more i see the two main political parties as just people either capable or incapable of empathy. democrats and sociopaths.


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## troubador (Jul 28, 2013)

Bowden said:


> Ana Salvador, who earns $10 an hour after 10 years working at the  McDonald?s inside the National Air and Space Museum, wrote Mr. Obama to  say that she did not earn enough to support her four children, adding  that her family relied on food stamps and Medicaid.



So that's an interesting component of the argument because what do we do if the minimum wage is raised to a living wage? Do the government benefits paid out to individuals decrease in proportion to the wage increase?


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## Standard Donkey (Jul 28, 2013)

so how much should someone get paid to put mayonnaise on bread?


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## LAM (Jul 28, 2013)

troubador said:


> So that's an interesting component of the argument because what do we do if the minimum wage is raised to a living wage? Do the government benefits paid out to individuals decrease in proportion to the wage increase?



of course they do.

data from the CBO clearly shows that government transfers decrease as the income decreases, this is all economics 101.  

I've posted all this stuff before, look at the column heading "Cash Transfers"   then look at the decrease in the percentage of the income from the 2 bottom income quintiles to the middle to the upper 2.

CBO - Sources of Income for All Households (1979 to 2007)


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## Little Wing (Jul 28, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> so how much should someone get paid to put mayonnaise on bread?


enough so they don't resent making it and do this

subway worker - Image - Digital Journal


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## LAM (Jul 28, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> so how much should someone get paid to put mayonnaise on bread?



more than a Wallstreet "financier" that doesn't add any real value to the economy


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## troubador (Jul 28, 2013)

LAM said:


> of course they do.
> 
> data from the CBO clearly shows that government transfers decrease as the income decreases, this is all economics 101.



I wasn't asking about historical trends. I'm asking what policy decisions would be proposed in conjunction. Clearly people who make more money get less government assistance. If the government assistance decreases in proportion to wage increases there's no average net gain to the employees(by definition), only shifting the burden from tax payer to stock holder.


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## Dark Geared God (Jul 28, 2013)

troubador said:


> Yeah not like the golden days when flipping burgers meant you could afford a two story house and a swimming pool.



yea those golden bush 2 era when you could say you made 300000 a year with a piece of payer that said it. just take it to the bank and bam  new house with walk away cash..ahhh those day just 8 years ago


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## LAM (Jul 28, 2013)

troubador said:


> I wasn't asking about historical trends. I'm asking what policy decisions would be proposed in conjunction. Clearly people who make more money get less government assistance. If the government assistance decreases in proportion to wage increases there's no average net gain to the employees(by definition), only shifting the burden from tax payer to stock holder.



how is it a "burden" being passed to the stock holders when the vast majority of major shareholders are 1%ers, the kind that are bringing in 10's and 100's of millions a year.  the stocks head by wage workers do nothing except grease the wheels.  half the country has $0 in retirement savings and the other 40% have about $40-50K which is chump change.

*the small hit in wealth by the top percent doesn't change the quality of their life one bit, that's the difference.*


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## troubador (Jul 29, 2013)

LAM said:


> how is it a "burden" being passed to the stock holders when the vast majority of major shareholders are 1%ers, the kind that are bringing in 10's and 100's of millions a year.  the stocks head by wage workers do nothing except grease the wheels.  half the country has $0 in retirement savings and the other 40% have about $40-50K which is chump change.
> 
> *the small hit in wealth by the top percent doesn't change the quality of their life one bit, that's the difference.*



Never mind, I forgot.


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## Zaphod (Jul 29, 2013)

troubador said:


> I wasn't asking about historical trends. I'm asking what policy decisions would be proposed in conjunction. Clearly people who make more money get less government assistance. If the government assistance decreases in proportion to wage increases there's no average net gain to the employees(by definition), only shifting the burden from tax payer to stock holder.



Let me get this straight.  You're not liking the fact that low wage workers need government assistance.  But you're against paying them more because that would hurt stock holders?  Therefore keeping the low wage workers on government assistance, which you don't like.  You're against subsidizing the poor but have no problem with subsidizing the already wealthy?  That about sum it up?


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## Standard Donkey (Jul 29, 2013)

why is everyone who owns stock considered wealthy? old folks have their retirement funds invested in companies.. their pensions.. etc.. parents have their children's college funds invested lmao.. yes, let's crush corporate profits so Emilia rodriguez gonzalez hernandez can get paid 16.50 to make sandwiches.. so she and her husband Julio can raise their 20 children


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## LAM (Jul 29, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> why is everyone who owns stock considered wealthy? old folks have their retirement funds invested in companies.. their pensions.. etc.. parents have their children's college funds invested lmao.. yes, let's crush corporate profits so Emilia rodriguez gonzalez hernandez can get paid 16.50 to make sandwiches.. so she and her husband Julio can raise their 20 children



your talking in the PAST tense when people could actually afford to put substantial amounts of monies into both retirement and non-retirement savings accounts.  that is not the REALITY of the worker today as they can not afford to do either.


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## Swiper (Jul 29, 2013)

LAM said:


> your talking in the PAST tense when people could actually afford to put substantial amounts of monies into both retirement and non-retirement savings accounts.  that is not the REALITY of the worker today as they can not afford to do either.



yeah and under the Obama admin. wages have gone down about 4%.  Obama 2016!


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## Zaphod (Jul 29, 2013)

Swiper said:


> yeah and under the Obama admin. wages have gone down about 4%.  Obama 2016!



Real wages haven't changes in about 40 years.  Why are you bitching about it now?


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## DOMS (Jul 29, 2013)

The following needs to happen:

- Corporations need to pay their fair share of the taxes (and be penalized for off-shoring work).
- The rich need to pay their fair share of taxes.
- The minimum wage needs to be increased (the cost of a house and car had long ago been taken out of the equation that set that amount).
- All illegals should all be expelled.
- The border needs to be tightened.
- The wars to give shit-bag third-worlders "democracy" needs to end.
- Financial aid to anyone that is not actively aiding the USA needs to stop (especially to Africa and hostile countries).
- Money generated, or saved, from the above needs to be put into schools (at all levels).
- Laws need to be enacted that make it illegal for schools to profiteer at the cost of students.
- Laws need to be enacted that make it illegal to profiteer from prisons.
- Pot needs to be legalized.

And that's just for starters.


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## hoyle21 (Jul 29, 2013)

DOMS said:


> The following needs to happen:
> 
> - Corporations need to pay their fair share of the taxes (and be penalized for off-shoring work).
> - The rich need to pay their fair share of taxes.
> ...



If you add legalize prostitution I'll vote for you.


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## LAM (Jul 29, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> Real wages haven't changes in about 40 years.  Why are you bitching about it now?



he watched a Youtube video about it yesterday from Ron Paul most likely...RP tells him how to think


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## KelJu (Jul 29, 2013)

DOMS said:


> The following needs to happen:
> 
> - Corporations need to pay their fair share of the taxes (and be penalized for off-shoring work).
> - The rich need to pay their fair share of taxes.
> ...




You seem different. That is a great plan!


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## Swiper (Jul 29, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> Real wages haven't changes in about 40 years.  Why are you bitching about it now?



I was stating a fact.


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## DOMS (Jul 29, 2013)

KelJu said:


> You seem different. That is a great plan!



Yeah, I've changed a little. Not much, just a bit.


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> why is everyone who owns stock considered wealthy? old folks have their retirement funds invested in companies.. their pensions.. etc.. parents have their children's college funds invested lmao.. yes, let's crush corporate profits so Emilia rodriguez gonzalez hernandez can get paid 16.50 to make sandwiches.. so she and her husband Julio can raise their 20 children



gambling when you can't afford to lose is a game for idiots.


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## Popeye. (Jul 29, 2013)

GOOD!  people should stand up! soo much BS in Amarica, if its not the Gov its the corporate Ass holes!

WALK OUT I say!


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## Standard Donkey (Jul 29, 2013)

Little Wing said:


> gambling when you can't afford to lose is a game for idiots.



so investing = gambling? idk.. Anywanys.. maybe im just weird but.. I don't think people should have kids if they can't afford them. having kids keeps poor people poor.. kids are expensive as fuck which is why I don't plan on having any.. gunna cut into my gearz fund too much


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> so investing = gambling? idk.. Anywanys.. maybe im just weird but.. I don't think people should have kids if they can't afford them. having kids keeps poor people poor.. kids are expensive as fuck which is why I don't plan on having any.. gunna cut into my gearz fund too much



then don't vote republican or more poor people will be having kids they cannot afford. and yes investing in something you might lose your money at is gambling. nothing makes that clearer than children to support. smart people don't gamble with anything they cannot afford to lose. investing in companies that use slave labor or pay slave wages right now is a losing bet. they are going down in flames.


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

Popeye. said:


> GOOD!  people should stand up! soo much BS in Amarica, if its not the Gov its the corporate Ass holes!
> 
> WALK OUT I say!



i think the next ten years are going to be very interesting times.


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## Standard Donkey (Jul 29, 2013)

Little Wing said:


> then don't vote republican or more poor people will be having kids they cannot afford.



I don't understand this? also, how long do we have to wait after the corporations all leave the country to begin bitching about offshoring?


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## heckler7 (Jul 29, 2013)

DOMS said:


> The following needs to happen:
> 
> - Corporations need to pay their fair share of the taxes (and be penalized for off-shoring work).
> - The rich need to pay their fair share of taxes.
> ...


did Bowden edit your post?


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## LAM (Jul 29, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> so investing = gambling? idk.. Anywanys.. maybe im just weird but.. I don't think people should have kids if they can't afford them. having kids keeps poor people poor.. kids are expensive as fuck which is why I don't plan on having any.. gunna cut into my gearz fund too much



that is the way people have been PROGRAMED to behave in this country.  you go to school either learn a trade go to college, etc. then you get married, buy a house and raise a family.  that's the "American Dream" that they have been selling to US citizens for the past century.

marketing techniques are broadcast over the various types of media, persuading people to consume things that don't even make our life's any better.  the news Fed gov and "economists" sell to the sheep that things are going to get better, etc.

then on top of all that the average person has no real working knowledge of how economics works, that being the case they "listen" to what they are told via the various forms of media.


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## Standard Donkey (Jul 29, 2013)

LAM said:


> that is the way people have been PROGRAMED to behave in this country.  you go to school either learn a trade go to college, etc. then you get married, buy a house and raise a family.  that's the "American Dream" that they have been selling to US citizens for the past century.
> 
> marketing techniques are broadcast over the various types of media, persuading people to consume things that don't even make our life's any better.  the news Fed gov and "economists" sell to the sheep that things are going to get better, etc.
> 
> then on top of all that the average person has no real working knowledge of how economics works, that being the case they "listen" to what they are told via the various forms of media.



so what you're saying is... americans are idiots? I can agree with that, but how is that the fault of corporations? I mean.. if they start paying higher wages, they start cutting back on hours and/or firing people. this shit is happening right now im not making it up


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## LAM (Jul 29, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> so what you're saying is... americans are idiots? I can agree with that, but how is that the fault of corporations? I mean.. if they start paying higher wages, they start cutting back on hours and/or firing people. this shit is happening right now im not making it up



the very nature of the current US economy is based on the exploitation of labor by capital (the classical capitalists vs the proletariat) and at the international level the wealthy country's exploit the 2nd and 3rd world country's via the standard debt trap.

and people wonder why I didn't want to have any kids...

I wouldn't say that all are idiots but at least 50%.  there's a reason why no other country's in the EU have done half the things to it's citizens as the US has done to it's.


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> so what you're saying is... americans are idiots? I can agree with that, but how is that the fault of corporations? I mean.. if they start paying higher wages, they start cutting back on hours and/or firing people. this shit is happening right now im not making it up



and their shitty reactions to paying fair wages needs to be pooped on too. if you can't afford to pay your workers and aren't willing to play a fair game fuck off and die. close your doors and someone willing to play fair will step up. the same old shit isn't going to fly.


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## Standard Donkey (Jul 29, 2013)

Little Wing said:


> and their shitty reactions to paying fair wages needs to be pooped on too.* if you can't afford to pay your workers and aren't willing to play a fair game fuck off and die. close your doors and someone willing to play fair will step up*. the same old shit isn't going to fly.



this is not true at all.. if anything, the opposite will occur, workers will quit and easily be replaced. There are always highschool students who will take an $8.50/hour job that requires hardly any physical labor..


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## hoyle21 (Jul 29, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> this is not true at all.. if anything, the opposite will occur, workers will quit and easily be replaced. There are always highschool students who will take an $8.50/hour job that requires hardly any physical labor..



You realize profits are at all time highs correct?   If company's are cutting back, it's not due to lack of profits.


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## heckler7 (Jul 29, 2013)

basic truth here, the people who are working for minimum wage filled out the application and interviewed for the position knowing exactly what the job payed and I would guess they knew that weeks before their start date. And now they are complaining. If you want to make more money you don't have to go to  school and earn a degree. You work in a trade field, lets say construction, you make minimum and work hard learn and move up the ladder. You start with lets say drywall, then learn framing or tile eventually your skill and hard work pays off. If your a lazy fuck work at walmart stocking shelves. that is all


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## DOMS (Jul 29, 2013)

heckler7 said:


> basic truth here, the people who are working for minimum wage filled out the application and interviewed for the position knowing exactly what the job payed and I would guess they knew that weeks before their start date. And now they are complaining. If you want to make more money you don't have to go to  school and earn a degree. You work in a trade field, lets say construction, you make minimum and work hard learn and move up the ladder. You start with lets say drywall, then learn framing or tile eventually your skill and hard work pays off. If your a lazy fuck work at walmart stocking shelves. that is all



I could buy into this if not for the fact that CEOs are getting paid more than ever before (especially when compared as multiple of the company's base pay) and the companies are making record profits. One of the many shitty ways that they're doing it is by taking away from the pay of actual workers.

Just look at the demise of Hostess. They blamed it on the workers. Even after they workers had already taken a pay cut...and the execs gave themselves a pay raise.

The entire playing field is stacked against the actual workers. It's nothing even like "fair."


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> this is not true at all.. if anything, the opposite will occur, workers will quit and easily be replaced. There are always highschool students who will take an $8.50/hour job that requires hardly any physical labor..



and rub their cock or your sandwich or jerk off in your ice cream or piss in the pickle barrel. this discontent is going to come to a head. poverty is turning this country into a shit hole and the people creating that poverty are not the poor. it's going to get really ugly but things will change.


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## heckler7 (Jul 29, 2013)

^^^ whos the new guy?


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## Bowden (Jul 29, 2013)

heckler7 said:


> did Bowden edit your post?



I don't edit posts on this board.


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## heckler7 (Jul 29, 2013)

Bowden said:


> I don't edit posts on this board.


I know, it was a joke


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## poppa_cracker (Jul 29, 2013)

simple economics dictates as wages go up so do the cost of the products...


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## heckler7 (Jul 29, 2013)

^^ glad you were here to clarify that


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> simple economics dictates as wages go up so do the cost of the products...



if wages go up people can afford the miniscule price hike in products. if i want tampons i want to pay for tampons not some douchebag's yacht. cost of item, manufacturing etc are all fair costs. i don't want to foot paul ryans wet dream elitist utopia.


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

i fail to understand why people don't grasp a well paid working citizenry will have buying power.


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## Bowden (Jul 29, 2013)

Something to consider as to low wage service workers is besides crappy wages that they usually do not get decent benefits like adequate health insurance provided by an employer that they can afford.
So they do without it.
They also do not get sick pay benefits.
The  result is they go to work sick and may spread bacteria and viruses into the  food they prep and serve and on the customers they wait on.
Think about that one the next time you order anything from a fast food joint, order in a restaurant and pick up a knife and fork, drink out of a beverage glass, contact anything that has been touched by a worker.

Hey, can't let a little bacteria and virus contagion get in the way of ROI to stock investors and decreased corporate profits due to providing workers with health insurance and sick pay huh?

Furthermore many temp workers/contractors hired into higher wage occupations usually do not get sick pay.
Think about that one the next time you go into your office if your employer uses temp workers/contractors .
Their health insurance benefits stink, that is if they even get health insurance.
Those people do not take time off when they get sick because they don't get paid if they do not work while sick.

But hey once again, can't let a little bacteria and virus contagion get in the way of ROI to stock investors and decreased corporate profits due to providing workers with health insurance and sick pay huh?


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## poppa_cracker (Jul 29, 2013)

Simple economics also dictates that minimum wage jobs are for people with no skills. They are starting points. I am sorry but I don't want to hire someone to answer a phone and file some papers for 15 dollars an hour. you might say you will pay the extra money for your tampons, but you will wait 30 minutes in the line because they will have half the work force.


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## poppa_cracker (Jul 29, 2013)

well who dictates the pay??? why not make minimum wage 100 dollars an hour? The market will always tell you the value of a product or service. If someone thinks they are worth more money, they should go out and make it. If someone won't hire you for that price start your own business, and then see if you want to hire some person to answer your phone for 15 dollars an hour.


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

Bowden said:


> Something to consider as to low wage service workers is besides crappy wages that they usually do not get decent benefits like adequate health insurance provided by an employer that they can afford.
> So they do without it.
> They also do not get sick pay benefits.
> The  result is they go to work sick and may spread bacteria and viruses into the  food they prep and serve and on the customers they wait on.
> ...




i lost my voice at work one day waitressing at a bagel shop. i shit you not i got fired for not coming in sick.


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> Simple economics also dictates that minimum wage jobs are for people with no skills. They are starting points. I am sorry but I don't want to hire someone to answer a phone and file some papers for 15 dollars an hour. you might say you will pay the extra money for your tampons, but you will wait 30 minutes in the line because they will have half the work force.



and people are in these jobs for years and still on welfare. walmart  has 20 register that are empty whenever you go there and you have to wait half an hour to check out anyway. your argument is invalid. and it's simple. pay a livable wage or do the job yourself.


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## Bowden (Jul 29, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> Simple economics also dictates that minimum wage jobs are for people with no skills. They are starting points. I am sorry but I don't want to hire someone to answer a phone and file some papers for 15 dollars an hour. you might say you will pay the extra money for your tampons, but you will wait 30 minutes in the line because they will have half the work force.




If people have to wait 30 minutes in a line then they will not be a repeat customer of your business.
Word will spread that your customer service sucks and that business will lose customers and go out of business due to lack of customer demand.

Better to pay your employees higher wages and give them decent benefits.
That way they have increased motivations to do a good job, the business customer service improves and then the business has increased traffic due to customer satisfaction increases.
Inexperience unmotivated employees = reduced customer satisfactions.
Your costs also do not increase due to employee turnovers and associated increased hiring and training costs.

This was the way that owners of a business, the executives of a corporation used to look at matters until the cult of the deferred stock options and managing the business to meet wall street quarterly EPS to increase stock option values and stock prices became status quo.


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## hoyle21 (Jul 29, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> simple economics dictates as wages go up so do the cost of the products...



If Walmart was forced to pay a minimum wage of $12 an hour to its employees and passed all of that costs into its customers, their bill would increase 1.1%


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

Bowden said:


> If people have to wait 30 minutes in a line then they will not be a repeat customer of your business.
> Word will spread that your customer service sucks and that business will lose customers and go out of business due to lack of customer demand.
> 
> Better to pay your employees higher wages and give them decent benefits.
> ...



and you won't have employees whoring themselves out in your bathrooms to make ends meet. i seriously hate going to walmart and the last two retards that waited on me there wouldn't just stfu and let me leave. i heard about some girl's sister's cat not getting along with her cat etc. i didn't want to be rude and just walk away but it was freaky. walmart is obviously taking advantage of the mentally ill.


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## poppa_cracker (Jul 29, 2013)

tell this to the small business owner!


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## hoyle21 (Jul 29, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> tell this to the small business owner!



This thread isn't about small business owners, who also by the way typically pay their employees much more than their corporate counterparts.


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## poppa_cracker (Jul 29, 2013)

they keep saying raising the minimum wage will take people out of poverty so they keep raising it, yet poverty is increasing everyday. every law that you enact on a corporations effects the small business man the most. What is minimal to Wal-Mart might shut down another business. Small business is what still drives this country. you don't like your wage, get a different job, learn a new skill, or get your education. Don't dictate what people pay. Everybody always wants fairness and social justice until it starts affecting them in a negative way.


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## LAM (Jul 29, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> The market will always tell you the value of a product or service.



sorry but that's nothing more than "economic theory" from the 1800's and that's not the way macroeconomics works in reality.  the price discovery mechanism has been distorted by fiat currency and inflation, government subsidy in certain sectors and not others, the manipulation of interest rates (LIBOR fraud, etc.), artificially low federal funds rate out of the FED, commodities and futures, trading, etc.

your about 200 years behind....


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## poppa_cracker (Jul 29, 2013)

15 bucks an hour to sweep a floor or stock toilette paper... really???


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## Bowden (Jul 29, 2013)

hoyle21 said:


> If Walmart was forced to pay a minimum wage of $12 an hour to its employees and passed all of that costs into its customers, their bill would increase 1.1%



That might impact their ability to fund 15 billion dollars worth of stock buy-backs.

A major consideration as to why Wal-Mart pays their employees so little and provides benefits at a low level.
That level of compensation is related to Wal-Mart reducing the cost of doing business by transferring employee costs to taxpayers who pick up the bill for Wal-Mart employees health care coverage under Medicaid and their grocery bills via SNAP ( food stamps) ect.
Anyone that thinks that Wal-Mart only employs people that are straight out of high school in their first minimum wage entry level job had better think again.

Wal=Mart included instructions in their employee handbook as to how their employees could apply for tax payer funded welfare benefits  in all the states that Wall-mart operates in.
People pay cheap prices, but that is offset by what they pay in increased local, state and federal taxes to fund Wal-Mart employee welfare.

Wal-Mart de facto is the largest recipient of corporate welfare and has the highest taxpayer funded welfare programs levels for the employees of any major employer in the U.S.


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## poppa_cracker (Jul 29, 2013)

Not going to get into a pissing match with someone on the internet... Those that can, do. It is as simple as that. you don't like your wage, go make more doing something else. The only thing that holds anyone back is fear or laziness.


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

yes. every worker deserves to have dignity and not be treated like a slave. next time you use a bathroom at a restaurant don't use any toilet paper because, you know, that person's job isn't important.


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

Bowden said:


> That might impact their ability to fund 15 billion dollars worth of stock buy-backs.
> 
> A major consideration as to why Wal-Mart pays their employees so little and provides benefits at a low level.
> That level of compensation is related to Wal-Mart reducing the cost of doing business by transferring employee costs to taxpayers who pick up the bill for Wal-Mart employees health care coverage under Medicaid and their grocery bills via SNAP ( food stamps) ect.
> ...



boggles my mind when a person doesn't realize they aren't just getting the t shirts for 3 dollars they are getting it for 3 dollars and a little here n there to support the employees on welfare AND THEIR FAMILIES. how are they saving money?


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## LAM (Jul 29, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> 15 bucks an hour to sweep a floor or stock toilette paper... really???



cumulative inflation on the USD averages 25-30% a year....LOL

those in the lowest income quintile receive wages that are effected the greatest by inflation, are effected the greatest by the regressive tax state structures and also see there pay increase the least as a % of income.

my guess is your LOL'ing  your utter lack of comprehension of how economics works in reality


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

walmart is also making a commitment to hire and financially abuse veterans.


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## LAM (Jul 29, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> 15 bucks an hour to sweep a floor or stock toilette paper... really???



and you think a hedge fund manager that produces nothing of value deserves 1Billion a year?


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## Bowden (Jul 29, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> they keep saying raising the minimum wage will take people out of poverty so they keep raising it, yet poverty is increasing everyday. every law that you enact on a corporations effects the small business man the most. What is minimal to Wal-Mart might shut down another business. Small business is what still drives this country. you don't like your wage, get a different job, learn a new skill, or get your education. Don't dictate what people pay. Everybody always wants fairness and social justice until it starts affecting them in a negative way.



This thread is about corporations like Wal-Mart that pay very low wages and benefits to employees and at the same time have enough free cash flow to fund 15 billion dollars worth of stock buy backs.
They can do this because they are transferring the cost of doing business related to reducing employee costs by instructing their low paid low benefit employees in their employee handbook on how to access federal government tax payer funded socialist welfare programs like Medicaid and SNAP.
You, I and anyone else that pays taxes that fund government socialist programs at federal, state and local levels are picking up the cost of this transference and stock holders like the Walton family that own huge levels of Wal-Mart stock are benefiting from this transference and stock buybacks.


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## hoyle21 (Jul 29, 2013)

I don't shop at Walmart or Sam's.

I do my shopping at Meijer, Target, my local family owned grocer and Costco.


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

no one would shop a wm if they had to go around the store and hand a dollar to every worker before they left but they still don't see the picture. they are saving money.


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## DOMS (Jul 29, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> they keep saying raising the minimum wage will take people out of poverty so they keep raising it, yet poverty is increasing everyday. every law that you enact on a corporations effects the small business man the most. What is minimal to Wal-Mart might shut down another business. Small business is what still drives this country. you don't like your wage, get a different job, learn a new skill, or get your education. Don't dictate what people pay. Everybody always wants fairness and social justice until it starts affecting them in a negative way.



Source. Emphasis mine.

"In 2010 the highest paid CEO was Viacom's Philippe P. Dauman at *$84.5 million*. That year the top *500 executives* earned a total of *$4.5 billion* in compensation, averaging of $9 million each.  The c_ompensation of twenty-five of these CEOs was greater than the  amount their companies paid in that year's federal income taxes_?an  average of $16.7 million."

I find it hard to hear that the actual workers shouldn't get paid more when I read shit like that. That's 500 people that make 4.5 billion -- not million! -- dollars.

Further...

Source. Emphasis mine.

"Measured with options granted, CEOs earned *18.3 times* more than typical  workers in *1965* and 26.5 times more in 1978; the ratio grew to  136.8-to-1 in 1995 and *peaked at 411.3-to-1 in 2000*. In 2012, CEO pay  was *202.3 times* more than typical worker pay."

Tell me again how the actual workers need to have their pay-rate kept low?


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## poppa_cracker (Jul 29, 2013)

I rarely use public restrooms like Wal-Mart because these low skilled workers usually hate their jobs so much because they think they deserve to be paid 15 bucks an hour, that the rooms are filthy. I am sorry that I am not as intelligent as some of you with "macro economics degrees" but then again I am not bitching about my wages... But then again when I joined the Air Force and served for 8 years then got out and got student loans to pay for college and medical school plus working full time hours with minimum wage pay to make ends meet. I was too busy to worry about hand outs and what other people made because I was too busy making a path to where I was going. And my Clinic is a small business, so I actually hire people and I have news for you, a part time teenage receptionist who I have to tell to get off their damn phones and facebook is not worth 15 bucks an hour.


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## hoyle21 (Jul 29, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> I rarely use public restrooms like Wal-Mart because these low skilled workers usually hate their jobs so much because they think they deserve to be paid 15 bucks an hour, that the rooms are filthy. I am sorry that I am not as intelligent as some of you with "macro economics degrees" but then again I am not bitching about my wages... But then again when I joined the Air Force and served for 8 years then got out and got student loans to pay for college and medical school plus working full time hours with minimum wage pay to make ends meet. I was too busy to worry about hand outs and what other people made because I was too busy making a path to where I was going. And my Clinic is a small business, so I actually hire people and I have news for you, a part time teenage receptionist who I have to tell to get off their damn phones and facebook is not worth 15 bucks an hour.



I don't believe any of this other than you weren't man enough to join the marines or the army.


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## DOMS (Jul 29, 2013)

hoyle21 said:


> I don't believe any of this other than you weren't man enough to join the marines or the army.



I cannot believe that _*I*_ am going to say this but...easy their pal. He hasn't, as far as I've seen, said anything mean-spirited. He's just speaking his mind.


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## Bowden (Jul 29, 2013)

Little Wing said:


> boggles my mind when a person doesn't realize they aren't just getting the t shirts for 3 dollars they are getting it for 3 dollars and a little here n there to support the employees on welfare AND THEIR FAMILIES. how are they saving money?



People don't think about it.
The entire business model game is to privatize the profit and socialize the risk.
Employee costs can be seen as a form of business risk related to resource cost ratios and profit margins.
The risk of doing business is reduced and corporate profit is increased when you can reduce wages and benefits to a low level to maximize the profit and then socialize the cost of your employees benefits to federal government socialist tax-payer funded welfare programs.

The socialized risk pay-off is huge related to in this case freeing up huge levels of cash due to low employee costs. In this case an associated 15 billion dollars worth of free cash flow for stock buybacks.
Stock buybacks can increase stock share prices.
Short term speculators in a corporation stock, if this game goes on long enough long term investors ,the executives of that corporation that received deferred stock options as a form of compensation and the owners of the company, in this case the Waltons that own huge levels of Wal-Mart stock are making a huge profit from this game.
This is one of the best examples I can think of as to why income inequality is escalating in the U.S.


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## DOMS (Jul 29, 2013)

DOMS said:


> Source. Emphasis mine.
> 
> "In 2010 the highest paid CEO was Viacom's Philippe P. Dauman at *$84.5 million*. That year the top *500 executives* earned a total of *$4.5 billion* in compensation, averaging of $9 million each.  The c_ompensation of twenty-five of these CEOs was greater than the  amount their companies paid in that year's federal income taxes_?an  average of $16.7 million."
> 
> ...



Also, Bowden, stop editing my posts!


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> I rarely use public restrooms like Wal-Mart because these low skilled workers usually hate their jobs so much because they think they deserve to be paid 15 bucks an hour, that the rooms are filthy. I am sorry that I am not as intelligent as some of you with "macro economics degrees" but then again I am not bitching about my wages... But then again when I joined the Air Force and served for 8 years then got out and got student loans to pay for college and medical school plus working full time hours with minimum wage pay to make ends meet. I was too busy to worry about hand outs and what other people made because I was too busy making a path to where I was going. And my Clinic is a small business, so I actually hire people and I have news for you, a part time teenage receptionist who I have to tell to get off their damn phones and facebook is not worth 15 bucks an hour.




you get what you pay for. if you want a professional receptionist hire one.


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## LAM (Jul 29, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> I rarely use public restrooms like Wal-Mart because these low skilled workers usually hate their jobs so much because they think they deserve to be paid 15 bucks an hour, that the rooms are filthy. I am sorry that I am not as intelligent as some of you with "macro economics degrees" but then again I am not bitching about my wages... But then again when I joined the Air Force and served for 8 years then got out and got student loans to pay for college and medical school plus working full time hours with minimum wage pay to make ends meet. I was too busy to worry about hand outs and what other people made because I was too busy making a path to where I was going. And my Clinic is a small business, so I actually hire people and I have news for you, a part time teenage receptionist who I have to tell to get off their damn phones and facebook is not worth 15 bucks an hour.



blah...blah...blah...I made it so EVERYBODY else can, same old psyco babble from the sociopaths

forget empirical data, let's just use our own experiences and emotions to form an opinion about something...LMAO


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

He's Now 101 Years old --- And Still Working At Wal-Mart- Hatteberg's People TV - YouTube

kids today.


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## Bowden (Jul 29, 2013)

Little Wing said:


> He's Now 101 Years old --- And Still Working At Wal-Mart- Hatteberg's People TV - YouTube
> 
> kids today.



Any day now Wal-Mart will come out with a Soylent Green product line at lower prices.


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

well if i'm gonna be made into food for republicans i'm not washing my ass first.


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## ROID (Jul 29, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> I rarely use public restrooms like Wal-Mart because these low skilled workers usually hate their jobs so much because they think they deserve to be paid 15 bucks an hour, that the rooms are filthy. I am sorry that I am not as intelligent as some of you with "macro economics degrees" but then again I am not bitching about my wages... But then again when I joined the Air Force and served for 8 years then got out and got student loans to pay for college and medical school plus working full time hours with minimum wage pay to make ends meet. I was too busy to worry about hand outs and what other people made because I was too busy making a path to where I was going. And my Clinic is a small business, so I actually hire people and I have news for you, a part time teenage receptionist who I have to tell to get off their damn phones and facebook is not worth 15 bucks an hour.



You think you could hook me up with a couple scripts?

Nothing major, Ultram and a strong anti inflammatory.


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## LAM (Jul 29, 2013)

you can get that stuff on the silkroad website once you download the Tor browser, you can buy just about anything there.


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## ROID (Jul 29, 2013)

Thank you.

Just to contribute to this thread....I dropped my insurance because it went up to $240/month.

General Dynamics took over the company I worked for and everything went to shit.


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## Little Wing (Jul 29, 2013)

Find the Silk Road Website - YouTube


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## LAM (Jul 29, 2013)

the graph attached below here is a visual glimpse of what has happened to the US economy.  we went from a country that used to actually make things to a country that consumes using debt/credit.  when the US went from a manufacturing based economy to a consumption based economy where investment capital would then take the lead it was the end of the US working class.  because now "skilled labor" is no longer needed and the stagnant and low wages of service sector wages is proof positive of that.  and now the FIRE sector which works closest to the issuance of currency no takes in the lions share of the national income while actually producing nothing of value in return.

below are some blogs from people that help to explain the transition in plain old English with no fancy useless economic mathematics and models to confuse people.


Financialization Era

How Deregulation Trashed the US Economy and Government Intervention Became the Only Way Out


Financialization Era ? how banking welfare captured our economy and ravaged the wealth of the working and middle class. Building profits through financial debt leverage.


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## Zaphod (Jul 29, 2013)

Swiper said:


> I was stating a fact.



It's a fact we already know.


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## Zaphod (Jul 29, 2013)

Bowden said:


> Something to consider as to low wage service workers is besides crappy wages that they usually do not get decent benefits like adequate health insurance provided by an employer that they can afford.
> So they do without it.
> They also do not get sick pay benefits.
> The  result is they go to work sick and may spread bacteria and viruses into the  food they prep and serve and on the customers they wait on.
> ...



Last time I was a contract worker was for four and half years.  Didn't take a single sick day because I couldn't afford not to get paid.  So I went to work sick to the point of nearly passing out on the job.  Who knows how many of my coworkers got sick because of me?


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## LAM (Jul 29, 2013)

Bowden said:


> This thread is about corporations like Wal-Mart that pay very low wages and benefits to employees and at the same time have enough free cash flow to fund 15 billion dollars worth of stock buy backs.
> They can do this because they are transferring the cost of doing business related to reducing employee costs by instructing their low paid low benefit employees in their employee handbook on how to access federal government tax payer funded socialist welfare programs like Medicaid and SNAP.
> You, I and anyone else that pays taxes that fund government socialist programs at federal, state and local levels are picking up the cost of this transference and stock holders like the Walton family that own huge levels of Wal-Mart stock are benefiting from this transference and stock buybacks.



that's the kicker right there...the low wagers don't want the firms to pay workers enough to survive AND want the government to reduce government spending on social protections when it's already one of the lowest in the OECD as a percentage of GDP.  they think they can have their cake and eat it too, pure delusion it's one or the other.

just like freedom and democracy or wealth concentrated in the hands of the few, it doesn't work both ways.  it's one OR the other.  but the radicals just can't compute this because it goes against their "belief" systems.


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## DOMS (Jul 29, 2013)

LAM said:


> the graph attached below here is a visual glimpse of what has happened to the US economy.  we went from a country that used to actually make things to a country that consumes using debt/credit.  when the US went from a manufacturing based economy to a consumption based economy where investment capital would then take the lead it was the end of the US working class.  because now "skilled labor" is no longer needed and the stagnant and low wages of service sector wages is proof positive of that.  and now the FIRE sector which works closest to the issuance of currency no takes in the lions share of the national income while actually producing nothing of value in return.
> 
> below are some blogs from people that help to explain the transition in plain old English with no fancy useless economic mathematics and models to confuse people.
> 
> ...



The sky is falling...

The non-manufacturing sectors neatly include real estate, rental, and leasing. That number rose 2.04 times. From 1947 to 2012, the population rose from 144,126,071 (source) to 315,091,138 (source). That's a increase of 2.18 times. One would hope there was an increase in those sectors.

Additionally, manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen for many countries (source). 

Same source as last. Emphasis mine.



> It?s also interesting to note that the decline in *manufacturing?s share  of U.S. GDP over the last forty years* is *nearly identical* to the *decline  in world manufacturing* as a share of world GDP, which fell from 26.6%  in 1970 to 16.2% in 2010. Therefore, we can conclude that the declining  share of manufacturing?s contribution to GDP is not unique to America,  but *reflects a global trend as the world moves from a traditional  manufacturing-intensive ?Machine Age? economy to more a  services-intensive ?Information Age? economy*.



Feel free to rant about that not reflecting reality. (source and source)


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## LAM (Jul 29, 2013)

DOMS said:


> The sky is falling...
> 
> The non-manufacturing sectors neatly include real estate, rental, and leasing. That number rose 2.04 times. From 1947 to 2012, the population rose from 144,126,071 (source) to 315,091,138 (source). That's a increase of 2.18 times. One would hope there was an increase in those sectors.
> 
> ...



nice graph but I wasn't comparing the US to other country's but if you want to answer this:

population growth in those country's did the increase at the same rate as the US or less? and how does that effect labor wages?  take Germany as one example with 60m people in 1900 and about 90m today while the US was at 76m in 1900 and is at 310m today.  are you actually trying to say that the effects of declining manufacturing sectors are the same given the difference in workers protections, union density, trade agreements, corporate governance? really....

now the country's with declining manufacturing sectors what is the labor union density rate? how much of labors share of the national income has decreased and what about off-shoring, how many jobs have been lost to technology vs being off-shored?

and what of the growth of the financial sectors of those same country's?  have they increased at the same rate and dwarfed the real economy like in the US?  and what about the ability for those financial sectors to seek rents?  what about financialization of those economy's?  and consumer protections the same as the US or different?  what about the increase in financial services as a percentage of GDP?

how about the size of houses in the other country's in the OECD, have they increased in size as the family size has gotten smaller? what about the ration of the home mortgage to the household income?  what about the home ownership rates?

I like how you try to use comparative economics when it suites your defense of the failing US economy but your another that's in denial.  just keep thinking that everything will be alright DOMS like a good sheep.

I know you think you understand economics when you do a couple of web searches, but you don't and that's painfully obvious.  

here are a couple of short papers that you should read before you "defend" the US financial sector, which no intelligent person would in this day and age that doesn't actually work in the FIRE sector.

since you know so much about econ DOMS what are the positive indicators that the US is on a path to sustainable economic growth?

chicken little..no more like having a firm grasp on economics in reality.

Financialization and its Consequences: the OECD Experience | Jacob Assa - Academia.edu

http://www.esr.ie/vol 43_4/01 Basak Kus article.pdf


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## Swiper (Jul 30, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> It's a fact we already know.



who's we?


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## Zaphod (Jul 30, 2013)

Swiper said:


> who's we?



Everyone that isn't you.


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## poppa_cracker (Jul 30, 2013)

If you can rationally look at both arguments read Thomas Sowell and Milton Friedman on minimum wage.


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## poppa_cracker (Jul 30, 2013)

hoyle21 said:


> I don't believe any of this other than you weren't man enough to join the marines or the army.



This kind of stuff makes me laugh... Is there where you tell me because you were a marine you can beat me up??? HAHAHAHAHA I love internet tuff guys. I resect all branches of service so if you served, thank you. If you didn't then you really shouldn't talk about some ones manliness for the branch that they chose to serve in. Typically the marines nor the Army hit the ground until we blow it to kingdom come, and we are also the first people they call when they get into trouble.


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## poppa_cracker (Jul 30, 2013)

oops... looks like someone was telling the truth


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## hoyle21 (Jul 30, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> This kind of stuff makes me laugh... Is there where you tell me because you were a marine you can beat me up??? HAHAHAHAHA I love internet tuff guys. I resect all branches of service so if you served, thank you. If you didn't then you really shouldn't talk about some ones manliness for the branch that they chose to serve in. Typically the marines nor the Army hit the ground until we blow it to kingdom come, and we are also the first people they call when they get into trouble.



The Navy has more planes and better trained pilots than the Air force.    Don't kid yourself.   I never made any threats of violence.   Just think it's funny you're full of shit and chose the most undisciplined branch of the armed forces to serve for.


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## hoyle21 (Jul 30, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> View attachment 51803View attachment 51804oops... looks like someone was telling the truth



The local quack chiropractor passes himself off as a Dr too.   For that matter so does the herbalist.


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## poppa_cracker (Jul 30, 2013)

hoyle21 said:


> The Navy has more planes and better trained pilots than the Air force.    Don't kid yourself.   I never made any threats of violence.   Just think it's funny you're full of shit and chose the most undisciplined branch of the armed forces to serve for.


I just proved I was, what I said I was. You probably didn't even serve. You can't make it in the "real world without bitching about your circumstances instead of picking yourself up and acquiring a skill or getting an education to make a better income. Your mad at me for doing what you wont do for yourself. But hey, if self pity works for you, me and a few other million soldiers fought for your freedom to cry, bitch and protest about how tuff life is for you.


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## Little Wing (Jul 30, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> I just proved I was, what I said I was. You probably didn't even serve. You can't make it in the "real world without bitching about your circumstances instead of picking yourself up and acquiring a skill or getting an education to make a better income. Your mad at me for doing what you wont do for yourself. But hey, if self pity works for you, me and a few other million soldiers fought for your freedom to cry, bitch and protest about how tuff life is for you.



what you have done with your life is commendable but there are many people in the world i don't want operating on my brain. they still deserve to make a livable wage. this is America there should be no such thing as working poor or two people each working 40 hours a week that can't feed their kids without being on welfare.


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## hoyle21 (Jul 30, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> I just proved I was, what I said I was. You probably didn't even serve. You can't make it in the "real world without bitching about your circumstances instead of picking yourself up and acquiring a skill or getting an education to make a better income. Your mad at me for doing what you wont do for yourself. But hey, if self pity works for you, me and a few other million soldiers fought for your freedom to cry, bitch and protest about how tuff life is for you.



I do just fine.   I certainly don't try and convince people chiropractors are real doctors.

Warren Buffet also disagrees with you.   He must not have accomplished anything either.


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## Little Wing (Jul 30, 2013)

i used to get horrible stiff necks once in a while and once a friend i was helping when i fucked up my neck took me to her chiropractor. been a believer ever since. healing time was about 1/3 of what i was used to and it was the worst one ever. i remember her laughing at me in the car on the way there because i couldn't even turn my damned head. lol in my opinion they are well worth the money.

also was in a car accident when i was pregnant with my son. i refused to take pain meds n saw a chiro instead. got relief from pain so bad i felt like puking.


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## poppa_cracker (Jul 30, 2013)

hoyle21 said:


> I do just fine.   I certainly don't try and convince people chiropractors are real doctors.
> 
> Warren Buffet also disagrees with you.   He must not have accomplished anything either.



I tend to not trust people who want laws to affect other people and not them personally... He says he wants higher taxes and then he doesn't pay what he owes. Hypocrite!!!


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## poppa_cracker (Jul 30, 2013)

Actually, chiropractors are real doctors, they just don't write scrips. I never said I was a chiropractor, you did. And for someone who is doing just fine financially I think it is very commendable how upset you are for your fellow man who is suffering at the hands of greedy corporations that are stealing from the little man. Social justice for everyone!!! There, can we be friends now? or do I need to bow and renounce my serving in the Air Force because my balls aren't as big as the Marine and Army soldiers?


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## hoyle21 (Jul 30, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> I tend to not trust people who want laws to affect other people and not them personally... He says he wants higher taxes and then he doesn't pay what he owes. Hypocrite!!!



I don't recall him ever not paying his taxes.   Although he is only required to pay about 16%


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## hoyle21 (Jul 30, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> Actually, chiropractors are real doctors, they just don't write scrips. I never said I was a chiropractor, you did. And for someone who is doing just fine financially I think it is very commendable how upset you are for your fellow man who is suffering at the hands of greedy corporations that are stealing from the little man. Social justice for everyone!!! There, can we be friends now? or do I need to bow and renounce my serving in the Air Force because my balls aren't as big as the Marine and Army soldiers?



I don't care where you served, or that served.   I though it was more interesting you through it out there.

Chiropractors are not doctors though.   I draw the line there.   They don't need an undergrad degree and are not even required to take a single biology class.


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## oufinny (Jul 30, 2013)

DOMS said:


> Source. Emphasis mine.
> 
> "In 2010 the highest paid CEO was Viacom's Philippe P. Dauman at *$84.5 million*. That year the top *500 executives* earned a total of *$4.5 billion* in compensation, averaging of $9 million each.  The c_ompensation of twenty-five of these CEOs was greater than the  amount their companies paid in that year's federal income taxes_?an  average of $16.7 million."
> 
> ...



That kind of shit NEVER, EVER makes it to the news and if it does it's made to be some great achievement not the hypocracy that it is!  Fucking bunch of assholes!!!!!


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## DOMS (Jul 30, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> Actually, chiropractors are real doctors, they just don't write scrips. I never said I was a chiropractor, you did. And for someone who is doing just fine financially I think it is very commendable how upset you are for your fellow man who is suffering at the hands of greedy corporations that are stealing from the little man. Social justice for everyone!!! There, can we be friends now? or do I need to bow and renounce my serving in the Air Force because my balls aren't as big as the Marine and Army soldiers?





hoyle21 said:


> I don't recall him ever not paying his taxes. *  Although he is only required to pay about 16%*



The average middle class man pays about 30% in income tax (source). That 16% tax rate is just so super awesomely fair.

No, poppa_cracker is correct. Warren Buffet is just now talking about how we need to raise taxes on the rich...only after profiting for over four *decades*. Now that _he's _all done, it's time to raise taxes.

Also, I just fucking love how people -- let's be honest, they're morons -- trot out the tired, "The top 1% pay 30% of all the taxes" shit. They own, at least, 40% of the nations wealth. Can I too pay 25% _less _taxes?


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## oufinny (Jul 30, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> Actually, chiropractors are real doctors, they just don't write scrips. I never said I was a chiropractor, you did. And for someone who is doing just fine financially I think it is very commendable how upset you are for your fellow man who is suffering at the hands of greedy corporations that are stealing from the little man. Social justice for everyone!!! There, can we be friends now? or do I need to bow and renounce my serving in the Air Force because my balls aren't as big as the Marine and Army soldiers?



So what's the average wait in your office for your patients?  The fact you have time to be on here is pretty impressive.  My girl is a doctor and I may get the occasional text from time to time from her during the day but that is VERY rare.  Granted, she works in hospitals but I have not seen any doctor recently that doesn't have an office full of people waiting an entirely long amount of time and now I am starting to see why... and if you have a shit receptionist, find a good one and pay her properly so he/she has the incentive to the job he/she is hired for.  Don't bitch about your poor hiring choices when you are the person doing the hiring; take some damn responsibility and go see your damn patients!


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## Dale Mabry (Jul 30, 2013)

DOMS said:


> The following needs to happen:
> 
> - Corporations need to pay their fair share of the taxes (and be penalized for off-shoring work).
> - The rich need to pay their fair share of taxes.
> ...



You must have gotten in to some good bud to morph your views that much.


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## Dale Mabry (Jul 30, 2013)

hoyle21 said:


> If Walmart was forced to pay a minimum wage of $12 an hour to its employees and passed all of that costs into its customers, their bill would increase 1.1%



Doubling McDonald's Salaries Would Cause Your Big Mac To Cost Just 68? More: Study


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## hoyle21 (Jul 30, 2013)

poppa_cracker said:


> And for someone who is doing just fine financially I think it is very commendable how upset you are for your fellow man who is suffering at the hands of greedy corporations that are stealing from the little man. Social justice for everyone!!!



They aren't stealing from the little man, they are steeling from you and me.   Our taxes that we pay are subsidizing their workers because they won't pay them a living wage. 

Success isn't tricking down, poverty is trickling up.

Have you ever done the math to try and figure how long you can keep your clinic open if 80% of the population makes 10 bucks an hour?


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## Swiper (Jul 30, 2013)

DOMS said:


> The following needs to happen:
> 
> - Corporations need to pay their fair share of the taxes (and be penalized for off-shoring work).
> - The rich need to pay their fair share of taxes.
> ...



most of these are big government views.


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## Swiper (Jul 30, 2013)

hoyle21 said:


> They aren't stealing from the little man, they are steeling from you and me.   Our taxes that we pay are subsidizing their workers because they won't pay them a living wage.
> 
> Success isn't tricking down, poverty is trickling up.
> 
> Have you ever done the math to try and figure how long you can keep your clinic open if 80% of the population makes 10 bucks an hour?



what's your solution to low wages?


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## DOMS (Jul 30, 2013)

Dale Mabry said:


> You must have gotten in to some good bud to morph your views that much.



Why does everyone keep saying this? 

Most of that is inline with views I've held for a long time.


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## hoyle21 (Jul 30, 2013)

Swiper said:


> most of these are big government views.



And opposition to gay marriage, the war on drugs, and a completely bloated military aren't?


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## hoyle21 (Jul 30, 2013)

Swiper said:


> what's your solution to low wages?



I'm not sure there is a viable solution.   That doesn't we shouldn't discuss it.   Someone may have a great idea that I never thought of.


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## DOMS (Jul 30, 2013)

Swiper said:


> what's your solution to low wages?





hoyle21 said:


> I'm not sure there is a viable solution.   That doesn't we shouldn't discuss it.   Someone may have a great idea that I never thought of.



There's not simple solution, but based on simple supply and demand, getting rid of the illegals is a great start.


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## Swiper (Jul 30, 2013)

hoyle21 said:


> And opposition to gay marriage, the war on drugs, and a completely bloated military aren't?



no, they are all big gov policies.


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## Dale Mabry (Jul 30, 2013)

DOMS said:


> Why does everyone keep saying this?
> 
> Most of that is inline with views I've held for a long time.



Certainly wrt to the Illegals issue.


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## Dale Mabry (Jul 30, 2013)

DOMS said:


> There's not simple solution, but based on simple supply and demand, getting rid of the illegals is a great start.



How would that help?  Not being a smartass, but if they aren't there to mow the lawns or pick the veggies who will do it for slave wages?


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## DOMS (Jul 30, 2013)

Dale Mabry said:


> How would that help?  Not being a smartass, but if they aren't there to mow the lawns or pick the veggies who will do it for slave wages?



It comes down to the invisible hand. Someone would have to do those jobs. The pay will increase until people are willing to do the job.

Consider that the middle class started when a third of the British workforce was killed by the Black Plague. Supply was so low that barons had to be competitive with the pay.


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## Dale Mabry (Jul 30, 2013)

DOMS said:


> It comes down to the invisible hand. Someone would have to do those jobs. The pay will increase until people are willing to do the job.
> 
> Consider that the middle class started when a third of the British workforce was killed by the Black Plague. Supply was so low that barons had to be competitive with the pay.



Sounds feasible.


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## Little Wing (Jul 30, 2013)

Some Disabled Goodwill Workers Earn As Little As 22 Cents An Hour As Execs Earn Six Figures: Report

As some workers were making as little as 22 cents per hour in 2011, Goodwill International CEO Jim Gibbons made $729,000 in salary and deferred compensation. The CEOs of Goodwill franchises across the country collectively earned about $30 million, according to NBC.


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## hoyle21 (Jul 30, 2013)

Little Wing said:


> Some Disabled Goodwill Workers Earn As Little As 22 Cents An Hour As Execs Earn Six Figures: Report
> 
> As some workers were making as little as 22 cents per hour in 2011, Goodwill International CEO Jim Gibbons made $729,000 in salary and deferred compensation. The CEOs of Goodwill franchises across the country collectively earned about $30 million, according to NBC.



Charities are some of the most wasteful, corrupt organizations on the planet.

Of course there are others that do amazing work.   I would suggest researching a charity before you just donate though.


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## Little Wing (Jul 30, 2013)

if i remember right less that 1 percent of money the humane society of us takes in ever helps animals in any way

Wayne Pacelle and The HSUS Scam - YouTube


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## hoyle21 (Jul 30, 2013)

Kids wish foundation spends less than 3 cents on the dollar helping kids.


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## Little Wing (Jul 30, 2013)

i think we should forget how other countries govern themselves and clean our own shit up for the next few decades.


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## DOMS (Jul 30, 2013)

Little Wing said:


> i think we should forget how other countries govern themselves and clean our own shit up for the next few decades.



I have to disagree. We need to keep an eye on the Chinese. When they caught the head of the their version of the FDA taking kickbacks that resulted in the deaths of children, they executed him. *That* is how it should be done.


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## LAM (Aug 1, 2013)

DOMS said:


> It comes down to the invisible hand. Someone would have to do those jobs. The pay will increase until people are willing to do the job.
> 
> Consider that the middle class started when a third of the British workforce was killed by the Black Plague. Supply was so low that barons had to be competitive with the pay.



and herein lies one of the major problem with country's with very large populations they put downward pressure on wages on jobs that are low-semi skilled, which employ over 60% of the people.

then there are no true "wage increases" at the bottom because those "raises" that people get are always less than the real rate of inflation and the cost of increasing food and energy costs.  they might be earning more on paper but they can never save, the avg. annual savings rate for those in the lowest 2 income quintiles is less than .4% of the annual income.

the math just don't work out unless there were some price controls put in place for those that earn the lowest wages.  and in the world today in the US that's not even a viable solution because of corporate governance and the modern day quest for short-term profits at the expense of the future.

it just seems that no matter which way you slice it this consumption based economy with low wages for the majority where nothing is really made anymore is simply unsustainable.

Low savings
Personal Saving Rate (PSAVERT) - FRED - St. Louis Fed

and high Household debt
Households and Nonprofit Organizations; Credit Market Instruments; Liability (CMDEBT) - FRED - St. Louis Fed


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## Swiper (Aug 1, 2013)

LAM said:


> and herein lies one of the major problem with country's with very large populations they put downward pressure on wages on jobs that are low-semi skilled, which employ over 60% of the people.
> 
> then there are no true "wage increases" at the bottom because those "raises" that people get are always less than the real rate of inflation and the cost of increasing food and energy costs.  they might be earning more on paper but they can never save, the avg. annual savings rate for those in the lowest 2 income quintiles is less than .4% of the annual income.
> 
> ...



you do know that wages are a result of supply and demand, right?


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## DOMS (Aug 1, 2013)

Swiper said:


> you do know that wages are a result of supply and demand, right?



When companies can employ illegals with illegal wages and off-shoring to third-world countries, supply becomes unnaturally high.


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## DOMS (Aug 1, 2013)

Swiper said:


> what's your solution to low wages?





hoyle21 said:


> I'm not sure there is a viable solution.   That doesn't we shouldn't discuss it.   Someone may have a great idea that I never thought of.





LAM said:


> and herein lies one of the major problem with country's with very large populations they put downward pressure on wages on jobs that are low-semi skilled, which employ over 60% of the people.
> 
> then there are no true "wage increases" at the bottom because those "raises" that people get are always less than the real rate of inflation and the cost of increasing food and energy costs.  they might be earning more on paper but they can never save, the avg. annual savings rate for those in the lowest 2 income quintiles is less than .4% of the annual income.
> 
> ...



I think short-term profits (and corporate greed) are far more of a problem than the population.


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## LAM (Aug 1, 2013)

DOMS said:


> I think short-term profits (and corporate greed) are far more of a problem than the population.



the population is a huge problem because most of the jobs people do don't really add any real value to life or society.  take for instance the fast food industry, originally places like Howard Johnson's, etc. catered to travelers on the road.  back the in 30's-60's were did people eat lunch when they went to work?  they brought it with them and they ate dinner at home.

so when you look at it from that perspective sure that industry didn't really add any value to our society, it just make it different by allowing people access to cheap food that lacks any real nutrition instead of planing their meals and taking them with them like people used to.


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## Dale Mabry (Aug 2, 2013)

LAM said:


> the population is a huge problem because most of the jobs people do don't really add any real value to life or society.  take for instance the fast food industry, originally places like Howard Johnson's, etc. catered to travelers on the road.  back the in 30's-60's were did people eat lunch when they went to work?  they brought it with them and they ate dinner at home.
> 
> so when you look at it from that perspective sure that industry didn't really add any value to our society, it just make it different by allowing people access to cheap food that lacks any real nutrition instead of planing their meals and taking them with them like people used to.




It was giving people what they want, food without having to actually expend any energy to get or prepare it...and diabeetus.  Then, on the back end, their healthcare is subsidized if they make it to 65 and everyone else gets to pay for it.


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## oufinny (Aug 6, 2013)

DOMS said:


> When companies can employ illegals with illegal wages and off-shoring to third-world countries, supply becomes unnaturally high.



This is the key take-away that needs to be addressed.


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## LAM (Aug 6, 2013)

oufinny said:


> This is the key take-away that needs to be addressed.



has nothing to do with it, the population growth (namely the baby boomers) is what increased the demand in the 80's.  offshoring only helps to further increase the profits of large firms and hides the real rate of inflation buy keeping the cost of consumables affordable to those of modest income.


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## SheriV (Aug 6, 2013)

I don't have a lot to say because economics frankly baffles me and I'd rather avoid reading anything about it 

but a few points in this thread. I served in the army. I have three degrees; a BS, a BA and an AS in unrelated areas of study. I have zero student debt. 
I do not work in a field even remotely related to any of those three degrees. I maintained a nearly perfect 4.0 GPA. I work in sales where frankly a high school diploma would do just fine. I have many friends and family members that also have degrees and can't find any sort of work in their desired fields. I know HEALTHCARE workers that can't find adequate work to make ends meet.
I worked as a manager for a cleaning company (janitorial) where the workers are paid between $15-$20 an hour and the owner is a perfectionist, know what? he does absolutely fine financially and pays his workers what he pays them so they take pride in their jobs. Some of them still don't. The owner makes a comfortable 6 figures (not bad for a guy who started with a mop and a bucket himself).

My husband also served in the Army, has an undergrad degree and works for a major weapons engineering firm. He got his degree after he was hired there. He was hired at a little over a salaried rate that worked out to 26.00 an hr when he started there several years ago. They encourage the use of sick time, personal time and any other damn time you can invent. The company is over 100 yrs old and prides itself in taking care of its employees. They post very respectable profits in the billions.


Our cost of living has gone up so exponentially that we barely make ends meet and can not contribute at this time to any sort of savings and have dipped into our retirement funds.
My electric bill has tripled in the last 4 years, my grocery bill has quadrupled in the last 6 years (family size has gone up by two small children).

My husband I are both educated, middle class and part of the rat race. We drive older cars that were purchased used for cash. We live in a beautiful home but our mortgage is less than rent in most places. We don't even have cable in our home (roku ftw)..we don't run around charging shit up and shit is barely working for us.....


you explain any of this to me in moron terms I can understand because I just don't get it. We did everything right and we're still fucked.


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## SheriV (Aug 6, 2013)

I guess I had more to say than I thought. :/


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## s2h (Aug 6, 2013)

bottom line is a lot of Americans are lazy...and they don't want to work...so why flip Big Mac's for $7.50 a hour when you can get a gov-o-ment check on the 3rd and $400 in free groceries every month..along with some medicaid and your all set...

the problem is there's too many hand outs...if people worked for a living then we wouldn't need all the freebies which drives the working man's taxes up...the wheel goes round and round..


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## DOMS (Aug 6, 2013)

s2h said:


> bottom line is a lot of Americans are lazy



Most people on the planet are lazy. It's a basic biological trait: seek the path of least resistance. Do you think a cheetah would run at 75mph if it could go to the store and buy a steak?


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## Swiper (Aug 6, 2013)

SheriV said:


> I don't have a lot to say because economics frankly baffles me and I'd rather avoid reading anything about it
> 
> but a few points in this thread. I served in the army. I have three degrees; a BS, a BA and an AS in unrelated areas of study. I have zero student debt.
> I do not work in a field even remotely related to any of those three degrees. I maintained a nearly perfect 4.0 GPA. I work in sales where frankly a high school diploma would do just fine. I have many friends and family members that also have degrees and can't find any sort of work in their desired fields. I know HEALTHCARE workers that can't find adequate work to make ends meet.
> ...



welcome to the new America, sadly it's not going to get any better until our gov takes the Austrian economic approach the economy. 

Ludwig von Mises Institute : The Austrian School Is Advancing Liberty



Austrian School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## SheriV (Aug 6, 2013)

yeah it just blows my mind that we MAKE good money, we don't spend anywhere near lavishly ..I've cut back on every conceivable expense 

our respective employers treat us very well and we're screwed
I've learned how to coupon on top of sales on top of whatever dumb point system some store is using to track my purchases ...right on through to making my own freaking laundry detergent (works awesome btw)


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## s2h (Aug 6, 2013)

DOMS said:


> Most people on the planet are lazy. It's a basic biological trait: seek the path of least resistance. Do you think a cheetah would run at 75mph if it could go to the store and buy a steak?



if there was a good sale he would run that fast to get it...


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## Swiper (Aug 6, 2013)

American History- * Government, Labor Unions, Low Wages and Poverty*


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