# lower/upper abs, one muscle?



## mike456 (Oct 10, 2006)

I have some questions...

are the lower and upper abs seperate muscles? Is it true that the upper abs are trunk flexors, and the lower abs are hip flexors, or do they both do both movements? and are the erectors trunk extensors or hip extensors?

I am asking all of this because of my posture problems, I know I need to strengthen my abs, but don't know if I should be training trunk flexing or hip flexing? Is it possible to have tight upper abs, and weak lower abs  Because I also have a hard time keeping my back arched during deads, so I am thinking this could mean tight upper abs, but it might be just tight hammies.

I realized my posture problem, and my inability to do a squat are 2 different problems, The posture is because of tight/weak muscles, and the inability to squat is because of bad balance/stability. My knee pain is caused by the bad posture, so that is why I need to fix it.

If someone can help me with these problems, I am sure I can find out what I need to stretch/strengthen, Thanks alot.


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## PWGriffin (Oct 10, 2006)

The rectus abdominus is one muscle.  When you crunch it is trunk flexion....when you do leg raises the abs tilt the pelvis so the hip flexors can function more efficiently...if I read that correctly.  

I would stick to planks and bird dogs....throw in some crunches to tighten up the rectus abdominus if you need to.  With an anterior tilt do you find it hard to do crunches??


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## mike456 (Oct 10, 2006)

yea I need to tighten up my abs, because I have an anterior tilt, planks and bird dogs aren't going to do anything for that, although I am doing those to get more stability/balance so I can start squatting. Yea I know crunching is trunk flexion, leg raises is hip flexion, but wich one would you do to fix an anterior tilt? I am guessing crunches, because the leg raises will tighten up my hip flexors even more... Thanks for your response, No I don't find it hard to do crunches.


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## P-funk (Oct 10, 2006)

crunches.


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## mike456 (Oct 10, 2006)

P-funk said:


> crunches.


whats the best set/rep-range to tighten muscles?


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## P-funk (Oct 10, 2006)

3 count hold at the top (only a crunch), 2 count lowering.

12-15 reps if you can.  if not, work up to it.


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## CowPimp (Oct 10, 2006)

Having a hard time keeping your back arched when you squat/deadlift may very will indicate weak spinal extensors, not flexors...


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## fUnc17 (Oct 10, 2006)

tight hamstrings is another possibility, especially if you have a hard time squatting


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## AKIRA (Oct 10, 2006)

Haha!  Youve got such a hard on for hamstrings!


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## AKIRA (Oct 10, 2006)

Somehow, I am not pictuing this right.

Anterior tilt=weak abs?  Not tight?


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## mike456 (Oct 10, 2006)

CowPimp said:


> Having a hard time keeping your back arched when you squat/deadlift may very will indicate weak spinal extensors, not flexors...



how is it possible that I have weak spinal extensors, if I have an anterior tilt? I can arch my back at the top portion, but the lower down I go, the harder it is to keep it arched (keep in mind my deadlfts are stifflegged), I am pretty sure it is tight hammies, erectors, hip flexors,  accompanied by weak abs, glutes, but I need to make sure, before I fuck myself even worse, hehe. If someone had tight erectors and tight hammies would they have trouble keeping back arched during a Stifflegged dead? So if what your saying is the my case than that means my abs are tight


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## mike456 (Oct 10, 2006)

AKIRA said:


> Somehow, I am not pictuing this right.
> 
> Anterior tilt=weak abs?  Not tight?



It depends wich way the tilt is 

This is the tilt I have (A):


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## PWGriffin (Oct 10, 2006)

mike456 said:


> how is it possible that I have weak spinal extensors, if I have an anterior tilt? I can arch my back at the top portion, but the lower down I go, the harder it is to keep it arched (keep in mind my deadlfts are stifflegged), I am pretty sure it is tight hammies, erectors, hip flexors,  accompanied by weak abs, glutes, but I need to make sure, before I fuck myself even worse, hehe. If someone had tight erectors and tight hammies would they have trouble keeping back arched during a Stifflegged dead? So if what your saying is the my case than that means my abs are tight



my hammies are SUPER tight.  There is NO WAY your hammies are tighter than mine I PROMISE....my TIGHT hammies are HONEST and GUARANTEED!!  



Seriously, my hammies are really tight and I don't have a problem keeping my back tight during any squat or deadlift.  But when you don't round ur back during and SLDL or RDL, it really shortens the stroke...or at least gives such an appearance.


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## fUnc17 (Oct 10, 2006)

PWGriffin said:


> my hammies are SUPER tight.  There is NO WAY your hammies are tighter than mine I PROMISE....my TIGHT hammies are HONEST and GUARANTEED!!
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, my hammies are really tight and I don't have a problem keeping my back tight during any squat or deadlift.  But when you don't round ur back during and SLDL or RDL, it really shortens the stroke...or at least gives such an appearance.



true, i didnt have a problem at all keeping form in either a squat or deadlift. the tight hamstrings cause postural problems, and no matter how "good" your form is, you will _eventually_ get injured

and it seems strength training just compounds the problem by tightening them even further


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## mike456 (Oct 10, 2006)

so what the hell is it thats keepin me from keeping my back arched? Griffin can you keep your back arched on Stiff-legged deads, because those are the ones I do:


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## mike456 (Oct 10, 2006)

click on the pic to make it bigger...


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## PWGriffin (Oct 10, 2006)

mike456 said:


> so what the hell is it thats keepin me from keeping my back arched? Griffin can you keep your back arched on Stiff-legged deads, because those are the ones I do:



You are still relatively new to weight training.  Just because ur erectors might be tight causing an anterior tilt...doesn't mean they are strong.  As ur core gets stronger and you develop better motor patterns I'm sure things like that will become easier.  



Now I will say this...you may not be able to set the weight down on a stiff dead....keeping the back tight shortens teh stroke.  Focus on driving the hips back while keeping the back tight and keeping the weight close to ur body moving straight down....then drive the hips forward back to the standing position.  If you are focusing on bending over moreso....it may make it more difficult to keep the back tight.


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## CowPimp (Oct 10, 2006)

mike456 said:


> how is it possible that I have weak spinal extensors, if I have an anterior tilt? I can arch my back at the top portion, but the lower down I go, the harder it is to keep it arched (keep in mind my deadlfts are stifflegged), I am pretty sure it is tight hammies, erectors, hip flexors,  accompanied by weak abs, glutes, but I need to make sure, before I fuck myself even worse, hehe. If someone had tight erectors and tight hammies would they have trouble keeping back arched during a Stifflegged dead? So if what your saying is the my case than that means my abs are tight



The reason I said that is that you seem to connect the rounding of your back in a deadlift with weak abs, which is not necessarily the case.  It could be though.  Are you reasonably sure you have an anterior pelvic tilt?


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## P-funk (Oct 10, 2006)

also, just because you have an anterior tilt, doesn't mean that your errectors can't be weak also.  I see tons of people with poor alignment, just because something is tight or overactive, doesn't mean that it is strong as well.  If that were the case, the people with rounded shoulders and upper cross syndrome would have some really great bench presses.


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## fUnc17 (Oct 10, 2006)

http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/fitness/h_Chair_Sit3.htm


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## mike456 (Oct 11, 2006)

CowPimp said:


> The reason I said that is that you seem to connect the rounding of your back in a deadlift with weak abs, which is not necessarily the case.  It could be though.  Are you reasonably sure you have an anterior pelvic tilt?



No I know the the rounding of my back doesnt have to do with weak abs, tight abs would do that. What I was saying is tight hammies is the reason I probably can't keep the back arched. From a pic, 2 people said I have a posterior tilt (one of them were you, hehe)


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## mike456 (Oct 11, 2006)

fUnc17 said:


> http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/fitness/h_Chair_Sit3.htm



when I sit on a chair that has no back, my traps start burning like hell, And my back is never straight when I sit, I am always leaning forward (trunk flexed), maybe I do have tight abs   , Would someone with a posterior tilt, when seated (on a chair with no back) have a naturally flexed trunk?


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## mike456 (Oct 11, 2006)

P-funk said:


> also, just because you have an anterior tilt, doesn't mean that your errectors can't be weak also.  I see tons of people with poor alignment, just because something is tight or overactive, doesn't mean that it is strong as well.  If that were the case, the people with rounded shoulders and upper cross syndrome would have some really great bench presses.



i am starting to think I have weak tight abs, maybe I don't have an anterior tilt?


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## P-funk (Oct 11, 2006)

mike456 said:


> i am starting to think I have weak tight abs, maybe I don't have an anterior tilt?



can you not go to someone that can help you?

Why are you trying to figure this stuff out on your own?  It is hard to assess yourself.  You need someone to properly look at you.


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## mike456 (Oct 11, 2006)

P-funk said:


> can you not go to someone that can help you?


correct


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## P-funk (Oct 11, 2006)

why can't you?


that is what i am asking.


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## mike456 (Oct 11, 2006)

P-funk said:


> why can't you?
> 
> 
> that is what i am asking.



I don't have the money, plus theres noone that knows what they are doing around me.


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## P-funk (Oct 11, 2006)

mike456 said:


> I don't have the money, plus theres noone that knows what they are doing around me.



a) I am sure there is someone in your area that knows something.  You just need to look.

b) some places will give you a free assessment.  or, you can get a job and try and make some money.


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## PWGriffin (Oct 11, 2006)

Could a chiro make such an assessment??  Even if you have no insurance they are cheap...I payed like 35 bucks for a visit.  I think ur folks would spring for that as long as you present it to them like a back problem that causes you pain and not "something that holds you back in the weight room"


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## fUnc17 (Oct 11, 2006)

PWGriffin said:


> Could a chiro make such an assessment??  Even if you have no insurance they are cheap...I payed like 35 bucks for a visit.  I think ur folks would spring for that as long as you present it to them like a back problem that causes you pain and not "something that holds you back in the weight room"



depends who it is. my original chiro had no idea what i was speaking of, re-aligned me and took my money without acknowledging anything i was saying

my new chiro, whom specializes in ART knows my condition and is actively helping me (she treats many athletes)

so it really depends on the person and their qualifications. Some just dont give a fuck


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## CowPimp (Oct 11, 2006)

mike456 said:


> No I know the the rounding of my back doesnt have to do with weak abs, tight abs would do that. What I was saying is tight hammies is the reason I probably can't keep the back arched. From a pic, 2 people said I have a posterior tilt (one of them were you, hehe)



I don't think I ever said that.  I think you showed me a picture of a silhouette with an anterior pelvic tilt and I told you that it was displaying an anterior pelvic tilt.


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## mike456 (Oct 11, 2006)

CowPimp said:


> I don't think I ever said that.  I think you showed me a picture of a silhouette with an anterior pelvic tilt and I told you that it was displaying an anterior pelvic tilt.


lol you have a bad memory, check your PMs


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## PWGriffin (Oct 11, 2006)

mike456 said:


> lol you have a bad memory, check your PMs



What people have said you display is an anteriorly tilted pelvis...as in it tilts forward.


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## CowPimp (Oct 11, 2006)

mike456 said:


> lol you have a bad memory, check your PMs



I get a lot of PMs.  I don't remember every conversation I have via PM.  

Are you talking about those two pictures you e-mailed me.  That was a front and a back shot.  I can't really tell you about pelvic tilt without a side shot, and I think I told you that too.


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## mike456 (Oct 11, 2006)

CowPimp said:


> I get a lot of PMs.  I don't remember every conversation I have via PM.
> 
> Are you talking about those two pictures you e-mailed me.  That was a front and a back shot.  I can't really tell you about pelvic tilt without a side shot, and I think I told you that too.



oh sorry, your right, I take that back, I am the one with the bad memory


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