# will nolva alone suffice for PCT? Is Clomid really needed?



## BUCKY (Apr 5, 2012)

my cycle was short (8 weeks). 500mg weekly of Test E, Anavar, Kigtropin. I used Anastrozole on cycle, 0.50mg daily.

I started taking Nolva 20mg daily, after 14 days of last injection of Test E. I might be taking Clomid as well if necessary. My testicles didn't shrink during the cycle. Not sure if I should pass on the Clomid. My cycle was short and light. Do you think 3 weeks of Nolva at 20mg daily is sufficient? Perhaps 10 days of Clomid as well? I might kickstart my Clomid on the 21st day AFTER my last Test E injection. I was told I have within 3 weeks to start my PCT. I started Nolva within 2 weeks, then maybe Clomid after just within 3 weeks of last Test E injection. I was trying to see any adverse reaction to these drugs. I felt nothing with 20mg Nolva daily. Not sure about Clomid yet.

Also, can anyone here confirm that both nolvadex and clomid greatly stimulate the release of the Luteinizing Hormone (LH) thereby promoting the production of testosterone? I thought Nolva was only good for gynecomastia prevention and clomid is for both gynecomastia and hypogonadism? One source mentioned that both are interchangeable, but I don't see much of Nolva as for being for hypogonadism as well, specifically only Clomid.


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## Grozny (Apr 5, 2012)

BUCKY said:


> my cycle was short (8 weeks). 500mg weekly of Test E, Anavar, Kigtropin. I used Anastrozole on cycle, 0.50mg daily.
> 
> I started taking Nolva 20mg daily, after 14 days of last injection of Test E. I might be taking Clomid as well if necessary. My testicles didn't shrink during the cycle. Not sure if I should pass on the Clomid. My cycle was short and light. Do you think 3 weeks of Nolva at 20mg daily is sufficient? Perhaps 10 days of Clomid as well? I might kickstart my Clomid on the 21st day AFTER my last Test E injection. I was told I have within 3 weeks to start my PCT. I started Nolva within 2 weeks, then maybe Clomid after just within 3 weeks of last Test E injection. I was trying to see any adverse reaction to these drugs. I felt nothing with 20mg Nolva daily. Not sure about Clomid yet.
> 
> Also, can anyone here confirm that both nolvadex and clomid greatly stimulate the release of the Luteinizing Hormone (LH) thereby promoting the production of testosterone? I thought Nolva was only good for gynecomastia prevention and clomid is for both gynecomastia and hypogonadism? One source mentioned that both are interchangeable, but I don't see much of Nolva as for being for hypogonadism as well, specifically only Clomid.



I never really think of Nolvadex as sufficient PCT. Maybe a little clomid from a short cycle; anything else I like a normal PCT program. Nolvadex is more traditionally used to combat estrogenic side effects and Clomid support gonadotropin release.


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## Digitalash (Apr 5, 2012)

nolva is effective for pct IMO, I would run it for 4 weeks @ 20mg though. I've read pretty convincing arguments from both sides in the nolva vs. clomid debate but in the end they both work very well for restoring hpta function. Nolva is a stronger drug and you can use a much lower dosage , it also has less side effects for most. Twist started a thread in the research chem section with a pretty positive argument for nolva but in the end I think it just comes down to personal choice. Try them both separately and see what you like better. If you're going to order anything it should be aromasin to run through your pct


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## MovinWeight (Apr 5, 2012)

Clomid for sure.


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## BUCKY (Apr 5, 2012)

I like this. I know Nolva is better compared to Clomid when in comes to per milligram per price. You need less of Nolva but more of Clomid. I think I'm going to try both separately. After my 4 weeks of Nolvadex, I might try a little Clomid then. Some people take both at the same time, but it worries me that taking 2 almost identical drugs (both are SERMs) at the same time might cause problems. It's like taking 2 oral steroids, which is not recommended, or taking 3 types of multi vitamin when all you need is 1!

I was told about Aromasin. Maybe for next time. I was told Nolva, Aromasin, and HCG are supposed to be the better PCT drugs. Since Aromasin is an AI, I always considered AIs to be great for on-cycle therapy. My choice for on-cycle therapy was Arimidex. I think for PCT, Nolva and HCG would be sufficient. What do you think?



Digitalash said:


> nolva is effective for pct IMO, I would run it for 4 weeks @ 20mg though. I've read pretty convincing arguments from both sides in the nolva vs. clomid debate but in the end they both work very well for restoring hpta function. Nolva is a stronger drug and you can use a much lower dosage , it also has less side effects for most. Twist started a thread in the research chem section with a pretty positive argument for nolva but in the end I think it just comes down to personal choice. Try them both separately and see what you like better. If you're going to order anything it should be aromasin to run through your pct


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## Digitalash (Apr 5, 2012)

Hcg shouldn't be run during pct, rather on cycle or leading up to pct. Just in the way taking testosterone will cause you to produce less of it, taking artificial lh (hcg) will inhibit it's natural production, and in this case the hypothalamus produces gnrh which in turn causes lh to be produced, so that too will be suppressed. Run hcg at 500-1000iu. per week (split biweekly) throughout the cycle or in the weeks leading up to pct, stopping one week before clomid/nolva. 

Suppressing estrogen during pct is also very important thus the need for an AI, they will also improve testosterone production via the negative feedback loop triggered by having low estrogen. Arimidex is great on cycle IMO but you really need a suicidal AI like aromasin or formestane for pct or you risk estrogen rebound and gyno etc. after your pct. If you still have arimidex on hand I would continue it until you start pct and then taper down to .25mg 2x a week by week 2 of pct, and then drop it completely. This will still help prevent estrogenic side effects and improve recovery, but the two weeks off a-dex while still on a Serm should prevent rebound effects like gyno. Perfect pct in my opinion is hcg throughout the entire cycle, blasted before pct, and then the serm + suicidal AI of your choice


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## Grozny (Apr 6, 2012)

BUCKY said:


> I like this. I know Nolva is better compared to Clomid when in comes to per milligram per price. You need less of Nolva but more of Clomid. I think I'm going to try both separately. After my 4 weeks of Nolvadex, I might try a little Clomid then. Some people take both at the same time, but it worries me that taking 2 almost identical drugs (both are SERMs) at the same time might cause problems. It's like taking 2 oral steroids, which is not recommended, or taking 3 types of multi vitamin when all you need is 1!
> 
> I was told about Aromasin. Maybe for next time. I was told Nolva, Aromasin, and HCG are supposed to be the better PCT drugs. Since Aromasin is an AI, I always considered AIs to be great for on-cycle therapy. My choice for on-cycle therapy was Arimidex. I think for PCT, Nolva and HCG would be sufficient. What do you think?



Yo bro before taking any medication, try to inform yourself and dont mix all this gear like u do now.

The simplest way to sum this up would be this.. CLOMID AND NOLVA they are two drugs of the same family. Their structures and actions are very similar in a general sense (estrogenic and anti-estrogenic), though have slightly different effects in certain tissues. Nolvadex is more traditionally used to combat estrogenic side effects and Clomid support gonadotropin release, though both drugs share some similar properties in both of these contexts.

Personally I am not a fan of AI's for PCT, and I'll tell you why. *The objective with PCT is hormonal homeostasis back at pre-treated norms.* We want all our hormones to be *balanced and not suppressed. * I don't know that suppressing estrogen for the sake of LH/Testosterone is the best idea.  

For PCT, the only program I like is the Scally protocols (HCG/NOL/CLO). There are plenty of other theories, but this is well studies and known to work well.

*Here is the traditional PCT program, as developed by Dr. Scally.*

Human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG): 2000lU every other day for 20 days. 
Clomiphene citrate: 50 mg taken twice per day for 30 days. 
Tamoxifen citrate: 20 mg twice per day for 45 days.


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## Digitalash (Apr 6, 2012)

what's the reasoning for such high doses of nolva and clomid? Plus the half life of nolva is something on the order of 14 days so why dose 2x a day?


Also the point of pct is to recover your testosterone production, if adding an AI will help with that then it's worth suppressing estrogen for a little while IMO. Once you come off the aromasin your body will slowly start to build back levels of aromatase and your estrogen will return to normal so long as you have enough test to feed the conversion. I respect Dr. Scally but some of it just doesn't make sense to me. Why isn't running hcg during pct suppressive to LH, once one comes off won't their LH production be temporarily low? How is using 2 serms better than just one if we're only trying to bind to a few tissues in the brain, which either one is quite good at?


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## Grozny (Apr 6, 2012)

Digitalash said:


> what's the reasoning for such high doses of nolva and clomid? Plus the half life of nolva is something on the order of 14 days so why dose 2x a day?
> 
> [FONT=Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica][/FONT] Also the point of pct is to recover your testosterone production, if adding an AI will help with that then it's worth suppressing estrogen for a little while IMO. Once you come off the aromasin your body will slowly start to build back levels of aromatase and your estrogen will return to normal so long as you have enough test to feed the conversion. I respect Dr. Scally but some of it just doesn't make sense to me. Why isn't running hcg during pct suppressive to LH, once one comes off won't their LH production be temporarily low? How is using 2 serms better than just one if we're only trying to bind to a few tissues in the brain, which either one is quite good at?



As u know Nolvadex allows estrogen to build in the body, but blocks it at the receptor. It seems less "harsh" on the cardiovascular system compared to aromatase inhibitors. Generally though, my advice is to consider estrogen maintenance drugs only when you need them.

I am more traditional bro I prefer to recommend a tested and proven PCT protocol such as the Scally program (NOL/CLO/HCG). It may be that he is correct, but I am not yet sold on inhibiting aromatase during the critical PCT  

Here is the original paper. 

http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf

PS: It is not unreasonable to require a good dose of an AI if you are taking a lot of testosterone though


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## Digitalash (Apr 6, 2012)

I can understand that, nolva is good for your lipid profile even. Obviously on cycle most will need an AI but I think it should atleast extend into the first week of pct to reduce any circulating estrogen. Maybe crushing E2 with aromasin while you have no test in your body is overkill though, serm's are incredibly effective at blocking estrogen receptors in most tissues so it's not even guaranteed your body can sense that estrogen floating around (ie. an AI may not provide any additional help to your recovery if serms are dosed properly, they are for sure effective on their own but I don't think I've ever seen a study proving the serm/ai combination to be more effective than a serm by itself as far as restoring lh/test etc.). I still somewhat disagree with using hcg during pct and using two serms though, that pct protocol I'm sure is effective but some of it is overkill and the hcg may or may not cause problems in recovering natural lh/gnrh production.


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## XYZ (Apr 6, 2012)

Grozny said:


> Yo bro before taking any medication, try to inform yourself and dont mix all this gear like u do now.
> 
> The simplest way to sum this up would be this.. CLOMID AND NOLVA they are two drugs of the same family. Their structures and actions are very similar in a general sense (estrogenic and anti-estrogenic), though have slightly different effects in certain tissues. Nolvadex is more traditionally used to combat estrogenic side effects and Clomid support gonadotropin release, though both drugs share some similar properties in both of these contexts.
> 
> ...




Do you know if this is intended to be used if the AAS user had NOT used hcg on cycle or not?  That just seems like a LOT of hcg either way.


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## Goldenera (Apr 6, 2012)

XYZ said:


> Do you know if this is intended to be used if the AAS user had NOT used hcg on cycle or not?  That just seems like a LOT of hcg either way.



I'd like to know as well. Seems like way to much hcg per this
http://www.elite-bodiez.com/forums/showthread.php?5684-HCG-Unraveled-Protect-The-(-Y-)

I would assume no hcg was used for oct and that protocol is attempting to wake the lh deprived rasin sides nuts lol.


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## Goldenera (Apr 6, 2012)

I believe it was mentioned but check the research Chem section on a great debate of nolva vs clomid specifically for pct. 

My personal route is hcg ON cycle.  I use masteron  or primo in cycles so I don't use an AI drug on cycle. 

For pct nolva for lh/fsh stimuli and aromosin for lowering estro to prevent rebound after pct


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## Grozny (Apr 6, 2012)

I cannot comment for Dr. Scally, but I understand he devised the protocols to deal even with the worst cases of anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism.

There are all different approaches to hCG really. I generally like the ideal of 250 -500 IU 2-3 times per week while on a program, or 2000IU every other day for 20 days during PCT.. If using a high (PCT) dose you usually do not keep taking it past 20 days of PCT.

Low doses of HCG are used during the cycle (250-500 IU ) to maintain testicular size, or higher recovery doses (1500-2500 2-4x week) are used after a cycle for 2-3 weeks.


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## toothache (Apr 7, 2012)

Grozny said:


> Yo bro before taking any medication, try to inform yourself and dont mix all this gear like u do now.
> 
> The simplest way to sum this up would be this.. CLOMID AND NOLVA they are two drugs of the same family. Their structures and actions are very similar in a general sense (estrogenic and anti-estrogenic), though have slightly different effects in certain tissues. Nolvadex is more traditionally used to combat estrogenic side effects and Clomid support gonadotropin release, though both drugs share some similar properties in both of these contexts.
> 
> ...


Good stuff ^^^^^^^^^^^


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## BUCKY (Apr 9, 2012)

Is HCG only required for oppressively long cycles (12 weeks or more)? That's what I read, otherwise a simple Nolva or Clomid for PCT will be ok. I went on a short cycle of 500mg (weekly) Test E for 8 weeks, Anavar 50-100mg daily for first 6 weeks (my HGH is ongoing for 6 month cycle). My OCT was Arimidex, about 0.75 mg daily. My testicles never shrunk nor have I shown any gynecomastia symptoms. This is the reason why I think I won't be needing HCG for this cycle. 



Goldenera said:


> I'd like to know as well. Seems like way to much hcg per this
> http://www.elite-bodiez.com/forums/showthread.php?5684-HCG-Unraveled-Protect-The-(-Y-)
> 
> I would assume no hcg was used for oct and that protocol is attempting to wake the lh deprived rasin sides nuts lol.


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## BUCKY (Apr 9, 2012)

Doesn't Nolva (SERM) also lower estrogen? So why the need for an Aromasin (AI) with it? If the AAS user used an OCT drug, which will most likely be an AI (my personal choice is Arimidex), then there shouldn't be a need for another AI for PCT. The AI used for OCT was for preventive measures most likely. If no AI used for OCT, I think then your suggestions of using Nolva (SERM) and Aromasin (AI) might actually make sense for PCT. 



Goldenera said:


> I believe it was mentioned but check the research Chem section on a great debate of nolva vs clomid specifically for pct.
> 
> My personal route is hcg ON cycle.  I use masteron  or primo in cycles so I don't use an AI drug on cycle.
> 
> For pct nolva for lh/fsh stimuli and aromosin for lowering estro to prevent rebound after pct


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## Digitalash (Apr 9, 2012)

Serms do not suppress estrogen, only block it at the receptor. An AI will actually reduce circulating estrogen which may be left over from the cycle. Also preventing the brain from sensing the presence of estrogen is how we stimulate it to produce testosterone, Serm + AI is about as effective as it gets. Also Serms can actually raise estrogen so symptoms may appear after their use if an AI isn't run alongside


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## Grozny (Apr 9, 2012)

another important thing that everybody forget is that *e**strogen is involved in muscle repair/growth *(not solely through the GH axis), so to some extent any inhibition/antagonism has the potential for some level of interference. I find aromatase inhibitors to be the most noticeable in this regard. Nolvadex is usually preferred as it isn't as strong as say Aromasin or Arimidex and is a site-specific antagonist.. but again response is a very individualized thing.


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## Grozny (Apr 9, 2012)

Digitalash said:


> Serms do not suppress estrogen, only block it at the receptor. An AI will actually reduce circulating estrogen which may be left over from the cycle. Also preventing the brain from sensing the presence of estrogen is how we stimulate it to produce testosterone, Serm + AI is about as effective as it gets. Also Serms can actually raise estrogen so symptoms may appear after their use if an AI isn't run alongside



good point, aromasin will not remove all estrogen, but typically enough that you will notice a strong reduction in estrogenicity when taking it. I guess you could argue Nolvadex can help antagonize what estrogen is left, but honestly I think it is going to be overkill. To AI drugs are generally used to replace Nolvadex, not compliment it.. Mind you I am a bigger fan of Nolvadex because it doesn't suppress HDL as much.


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## BUCKY (Apr 30, 2012)

Ok this is great. As I mentioned before, I was on a short cycle (8 weeks). My only PCT is Nolvadex at 20mg daily. I'm on my 27th day. I felt some chest pains and some muscle twitching on my left chest area, but not on the nipple area. Not sure what that was about. But 1 more day of this and I'm done with the PCT. I'll keep it at 28 days (4 weeks) of Nolvadex at 20mg daily. I do have some Clomid but didn't use it. Someone told me if my testicles shrank then I should use it. My testicles were normal sized. I saw Nolva and Clomid as similar drugs so why use both? Both are SERMs. Although I still could not find any info. that Nolva is supposed to be also to help with hypogonadism, but only for gynecomastia. Now Clomid is for both issues. 

Just wondering how many days do I have to wait for the Nolva to be out of my system? Since the half-life is about 5-7 days, does that mean I'd have to wait atleast 2 weeks for it to be completely out of my system? 

I'm trying to get on an Anavar cycle after this PCT. Since Anavar does not aromatize, I won't have to worry about OCT or PCT, although I read that using Anavar for longer periods (12 weeks) will cause issues. I'll follow the cycle of 6 weeks on, 100mg daily, 3 weeks off.



Grozny said:


> another important thing that everybody forget is that *e**strogen is involved in muscle repair/growth *(not solely through the GH axis), so to some extent any inhibition/antagonism has the potential for some level of interference. I find aromatase inhibitors to be the most noticeable in this regard. Nolvadex is usually preferred as it isn't as strong as say Aromasin or Arimidex and is a site-specific antagonist.. but again response is a very individualized thing.


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## Digitalash (Apr 30, 2012)

This guy again....



BRO you don't start another cycle as soon as you finish pct..............................................................................................................................................................


Also you don't need pct with var?? LOL! Why would you run var solo anyway? Cycling- you're doing it wrong.


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## BUCKY (Apr 30, 2012)

It's just a cutting cycle. Nothing too complicated. Var does not aromatize so PCT is not always mandatory. It might affect the testicles for long periods of use (dose dependent), but I have Clomid just in case. LOL. How is my cycling wrong? Are you talking about my PCT? All I know is that 4 weeks is sufficient. I did just that so what are you talking about? I even went to some website about dosages and how long to use the drug for. Nolvadex clearly states 4 weeks. Maximum use of it is 5 years. It is carcinogenic if using it for long periods of time. Come on, bro. You're confusing yourself again.



Digitalash said:


> This guy again....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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