# gear for joints?



## showtime104 (Dec 24, 2011)

what is the best gear to use to help with bad joints and arthritis? please help lookin for oral or injectable suggestions hands are gettin so bad it hurts to lift anymore


----------



## Noheawaiian (Dec 24, 2011)

Deca Durabolin is known to have VERY good effects on joints/joint pain. But I would not suggest running an aas "just" for joint repair. There are many other types of steroids designed to help relieve inflamation in the joints. 
Deca, however, IS like liquid gold when it comes to making your joints feel 10-20 years younger.


----------



## swollen (Dec 24, 2011)

Noheawaiian said:


> Deca Durabolin is known to have VERY good effects on joints/joint pain. But I would not suggest running an aas "just" for joint repair. There are many other types of steroids designed to help relieve inflamation in the joints.
> Deca, however, IS like liquid gold when it comes to making your joints feel 10-20 years younger.



^^^ This


----------



## Digitalash (Dec 24, 2011)

run deca and some type of peptides or hgh. cjc-1295 + ghrp 6 OR 2 is a great combo from what I hear. Provides similar results to hgh at a much lower cost, and will help with joint repair probably even more than deca. 

If you have serious joint issues to the point it's becoming difficult to lift though, I would definitely see a doctor. Deca/gh will probably work great for just the minor aches and pains of a well used joint, but if there's a real medical issue there you might require some kind of treatment.


----------



## returnofthdragon (Dec 24, 2011)

Deca and peptides for the win!


----------



## FordFan (Dec 24, 2011)

Dbl post


----------



## FordFan (Dec 24, 2011)

As said above, if it's major see a doc. Otherwise deca will be your friend. But only temporary. Not sure about cruising on deca.

There are some peptides that can help you also.


----------



## Glycomann (Dec 24, 2011)

I do pretty good with GHRP-2 and NPP (shorter acting nandrolone than deca durabolin). Can't stay on it forever though.  Any nandrolone will eventually give you sexual side effects.


----------



## Digitalash (Dec 24, 2011)

I cruised on 100mg deca for a while, on top of 250mg test. I think it may have helped my joints a tad but nowhere near where I was on 400mg a week. I did it originally to help my shoulders but they are apparently injured and it didn't help there, my knees/elbows etc. felt amazing though


----------



## Vibrant (Dec 24, 2011)

Digitalash said:


> run deca and some type of peptides or hgh. cjc-1295 + ghrp 6 OR 2 is a great combo from what I hear. Provides similar results to hgh at a much lower cost, and will help with joint repair probably even more than deca.
> 
> If you have serious joint issues to the point it's becoming difficult to lift though, I would definitely see a doctor. Deca/gh will probably work great for just the minor aches and pains of a well used joint, but if there's a real medical issue there you might require some kind of treatment.



actually from what my research and some pep vets tell me, the peps dont do much for the actual joints. they are more for small fibers and tendons repair, but when that happens your joints may feel better because inflamed tendons arent causing pain for the joints. Not 100% on this though.


----------



## hypno (Dec 24, 2011)

You might look into trying Mobic. Its not AAS but it is very powerful arthritis drug. Very powerful but really very NOT. Its like taking an aspirin. However, it is like NPP or even better on the joints and you can take it pretty much forever. It feels like my joints are 25 years old when I am now in my 50's. Very few ever have side effects from it as well. You have to get a script from Doc for it but 99% of them will give it to you without a second thought.


----------



## Digitalash (Dec 24, 2011)

Vibrant said:


> actually from what my research and some pep vets tell me, the peps dont do much for the actual joints. they are more for small fibers and tendons repair, but when that happens your joints may feel better because inflamed tendons arent causing pain for the joints. Not 100% on this though.


 
Tendons/ligaments and cartilage are essentially made of similar collagen based tissue right? So if collagen production is increased that should also help repair the actual cushioning between joints and things like the labrum/meniscus etc. I would think


----------



## Vibrant (Dec 24, 2011)

Digitalash said:


> Tendons/ligaments and cartilage are essentially made of similar collagen based tissue right? So if collagen production is increased that should also help repair the actual cushioning between joints and things like the labrum/meniscus etc. I would think



That was what I thought as well, but maybe there are other mechanisms at play...


----------



## Digitalash (Dec 24, 2011)

Vibrant said:


> That was what I thought as well, but maybe there are other mechanisms at play...


 

Very possible, I won't pretend to understand all that goes into something like that lol. Either way it seems to help people and keeping your joints in good shape is obviously hella important for anyone that plans to train for a while


----------



## World-Pharma.org (Dec 24, 2011)

In every diet you need to take some Calcium too!


----------



## Vibrant (Dec 24, 2011)

World-Pharma.org said:


> In every diet you need to take some Calcium too!


----------



## oufinny (Dec 24, 2011)

Why has no one mentioned Anavar?


----------



## Digitalash (Dec 24, 2011)

oufinny said:


> Why has no one mentioned Anavar?


 

equipoise supposedly increases collagen production slightly more than deca but for some reason deca just seems to help people's joints more. For actual repair EQ might be the better choice but it probably won't take away the pain as readily as deca


----------



## Laborer (Dec 24, 2011)

Anavar helps me but I would like to try some npp with My next cycle


----------



## Ezskanken (Dec 24, 2011)

Heres a post from OSL...




OldSchoolLifter said:


> *Joint and Tendon Cycle : *
> every once in a while its a good idea to run a Joint and Tendon health cycle to help repair the damages you have encountered running higher doses of test, and other compounds.
> 
> *The Cycle*
> ...


----------



## Noheawaiian (Dec 24, 2011)

Glucosamine also helps


----------



## showtime104 (Dec 24, 2011)

ya thanks fellas im gunna look into that i hav a deca hhok up and i did a drol cycle this last summer and felt great till bout the last month then the pain started comming back in my hands and ive had surgury for carpletunnle back in 97 and just my knee's and hands are hurtin bad when im lifting heavy but my hands even when im wrighting


----------



## Thresh (Dec 24, 2011)

Any proof of deca and joints?

Steroid.com
"Also, Ive read many places that Deca-Durabolin stores water in connective tissue, thus alleviating joint pain. I have no idea what "storing water in the joints" means. I have no idea how to really quantify that statement, or where it started. However, in one study of postmenapusal women, Deca impoved collagen synthesis (1), and in another study Deca-Durabolin increased bone mineral content. (2)Both of these studies used VERY low doses, which were far too low to promote muscle growth. In my estimation, based on these 2 studies, an athlete attempting to use Deca only for these two effects (increasing bone mineral content and collagen synthesis)"

Good pills from any grocer will help with joints just fine. 


5"10
193lbs
BF = around 13% (guess)
600mg Tren E, 325mg Test Cyp week


----------



## buck (Dec 25, 2011)

i know you said gear but good noni juice helps a lot.


----------



## Hell (Dec 25, 2011)

All I know is that 150mg of Deca a week makes my joints feel great!! No longer in any pain...


----------



## bobby6638 (Dec 26, 2011)

Hell said:


> All I know is that 150mg of Deca a week makes my joints feel great!! No longer in any pain...




i agree, but can't stay on forever


----------



## ljeremy23 (Dec 26, 2011)

which makes your joints feel better, Deca or Anavar ?


----------



## aminoman74 (Dec 26, 2011)

Decs is supposed to help with joint pain but i didn't see any relief from it.I liked igf-1LR3 for tendon pain so give that a try.Shoot it close to the joint.


----------



## vancouver (Dec 26, 2011)

ajs.sagepub.com/content/32/4/934.abstract

nandrolone decanoate and Load Increase Remodeling and Strength in Human Supraspinatus Bioartificial Tendons

Ioannis K. Triantafillopoulos, MD*,***8224;, 
Albert J. Banes, PhD***8224;,***8225;,§, 
Karl F. Bowman, Jr||, 
Melissa Maloney, MS¶, 
William E. Garrett, Jr, MD, PhD#, and 
Spero G. Karas, MD*,***8224;,**

+ Author Affiliations

From *the Shoulder and Elbow Service, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, ***8224;Department of Orthopaedics, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, ***8225;Flexcell International Corporation, Hillsborough, North Carolina, the §Department of Biomedical Engineering, the ||School of Medicine, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, ¶Flexcell International Corporation, Hillsborough, North Carolina, and the #Department of Orthopaedics, Duke University, Durham, North Carolina 

Address correspondence to Spero G. Karas, MD, Chief, Shoulder and Elbow Service, University of North Carolina, Department of Orthopaedics, CB#7055, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7055 (e-mail: Spero_Karas@med.unc.edu). 


Abstract

Background: To date, no studies document the effect of anabolic steroids on rotator cuff tendons. 

Study Design: Controlled laboratory study. 

Hypothesis: Anabolic steroids enhance remodeling and improve the biomechanical properties of bioartificially engineered human supraspinatus tendons. 

Methods: Bioartificial tendons were treated with either nandrolone decanoate (nonload, steroid, n = 18), loading (load, nonsteroid, n = 18), or both (load, steroid, n = 18). A control group received no treatment (nonload, nonsteroid [NLNS], n = 18). Bioartificial tendons***8217; remodeling was assessed by daily scanning, cytoskeletal organization by staining, matrix metalloproteinase***8211;3 levels by ELISA assay, and biomechanical properties by load-to-failure testing. 

Results: The load, steroid group showed the greatest remodeling and the best organized actin cytoskeleton. Matrix metallo-proteinase***8211;3 levels in the load, steroid group were greater than those of the nonload, nonsteroid group (P < .05). Ultimate stress and ultimate strain in the load, steroid group were greater than those of the nonload, nonsteroid and nonload, steroid groups (P < .05). The strain energy density in the load, steroid group was greater when compared to other groups (P < .05). 

Conclusions: nandrolone decanoate and load acted synergistically to increase matrix remodeling and biomechanical properties of bioartificial tendons. 

Clinical Relevance: Data suggest anabolic steroids may enhance production of bioartificial tendons and rotator cuff tendon healing in vitro. More research is necessary before such clinical use is recommended.


----------



## blazeftp (Dec 27, 2011)

I broke my ankle in 4 places when i was younger. Gave me a lot of hassle when running long distance or squatting heavy, Did a 400mg of Deca and 400mg of EQ for 10 weeks. It hasn't clicked or caused pain at all since. Very Effective. 

Also had a friend who had just undergone a shoulder op had bone spurs on his shoulder. Done the same cycle he hasn't had any problems. 

Best of luck to you friend !


----------



## Hell (Dec 27, 2011)

bobby6638 said:


> i agree, but can't stay on forever



I dont plan on coming off 150mg of deca for a long while, currently cruising on 250mg of test and 150mg of deca......


----------



## purplerain (Dec 27, 2011)

Before I scrolled down to your post I was just sayin what about a Deca/Eq/Var cycle. It sounds like a person will get all the benefits of each one for some pain relief and some collegen repair. Now I ain't acting like I am the first one to think of or even suggest this kind of cycle. This was just a thought.


----------



## GT 500 (Jan 4, 2012)

never heard of  adequan


----------



## njc (Jan 4, 2012)

returnofthdragon said:


> Deca and peptides for the win!


 

X2

Anavar is great too


----------



## Live99 (Jan 5, 2012)

Beating a dead Horse here but deca helped with my shoulder pain immensely. Problem is that you have to add test to keep from getting deca dick. You could have calcium deposits or other issues that a doc should look at. For long term relief a cortisone shot from your doc always helps too.


----------



## 1bad1 (Jan 6, 2012)

Winstrol does wonders for joints


----------



## 9mm (Jan 6, 2012)

1bad1 said:


> Winstrol does wonders for joints




Is that a supposed to be funny?


----------



## returnofthdragon (Jan 6, 2012)

1bad1 said:


> Winstrol does wonders for joints



If you like pain.


----------



## celticthug (Jan 6, 2012)

will bump eq 600 decca 600 16 weeks.REALLY helped.and seemed to continue after cycle.not injured joints,jus sore an abused.of course run test.though first cycle i jus ran dball an decca a was jus fine


----------



## GT 500 (Jan 8, 2012)

adequan  is the best for joint


----------



## RockShawn (Jan 8, 2012)

Ezskanken said:


> Heres a post from OSL...


REPOST

Joint and Tendon Cycle : 
every once in a while its a good idea to run a Joint and Tendon health cycle to help repair the damages you have encountered running higher doses of test, and other compounds.

The Cycle

1-17 Test E 250-300mg/wk
1-16 EQ 500-600mg/wk
1-17 Mod-Grf 100mcg 2 x per day
1-17 GHRP-2 100mcg 2 x per day
1-6 Anavar 50mg/ed
1-17 Aromasin 12.5mg EOD

PCT
19 - Clomid 100mg/ed - 25mg Aromasin ED
20-21 Clomid 75mg/ed - 12.5mg Aromasin ED
22 - Clomid 50mg/ed - 12.5mg Aromasin EOD


You can also add a back end Oral, like Anavar or even a low dose Dbol to the end. I chose EQ over deca for the fact that in order for this to be successful you need your test to be 300mg or less, anything more will cause collagen degeneration. EQ has been shown to increase collagen synthesis up to 320%. If you ran Deca higher than Test like above, you can pose the risk of issues.


----------



## sassy69 (Jan 8, 2012)

oufinny said:


> Why has no one mentioned Anavar?




Anavar is a medically recognized repair & recovery compound - but relative to an injectable, it will probably always be the second thing brought up and not the first. It is usually more expensive, an oral and requires at least 50 mg / day to be worth anything for a guy. 



Noheawaiian said:


> Glucosamine also helps



The studies I've seen are inconclusive on glucosamine, however I've been using MSM / glucosamine / chondroitin for several years, w/ the bigger emphasis on MSM.



GT 500 said:


> never heard of  adequan



Adequan is a joint treatment for animals. You need a script (from a vet) to use it and it is not available from a physician (since it is a vet medication). The human equivalent is alflutop. From what I've heard, its not as effective as  adequan, for whatever reason.  


I'd also add that making sure you're getting enough EFAs in your diet (e.g. omega-3s) - this is an easy dietary way to help support your joints. 

From an injury standpoint, ice is your best friend.  Its hard if its an on-going thing. It might best require just laying off for a while. If its more than that, keep up w/ the regular icing and also be sure to work on good stretching & warmup.

Another thing to keep in mind is that using AIs, including winstrol, these are designed to suppress estrogen, which subsequently suppresses water. So expect to experience joint pain with these. You can stack w/ other things so its a balance of water & water suppression, or just be aware of it, expect it and train / plan / recover accordingly.


----------



## JMedic79 (Jan 9, 2012)

hypno said:


> You might look into trying Mobic. Its not AAS but it is very powerful arthritis drug. Very powerful but really very NOT. Its like taking an aspirin. However, it is like NPP or even better on the joints and you can take it pretty much forever. It feels like my joints are 25 years old when I am now in my 50's. Very few ever have side effects from it as well. You have to get a script from Doc for it but 99% of them will give it to you without a second thought.


 
Mobic is a pretty powerful NSAID. There is research floating around about NSAIDs effect of blocking prostaglandins and they're concurrent role in protein synthesis. Just a thought. Lots of pain in lots of joints, getting older, history of intense repetitive impact exercises, this path leads down the ruling-out-arthritis diagnosis. A doctor might be your best bet.


----------



## btls (Jan 9, 2012)

I've heard that Deca is supposed to be good for your joints and I am not disagreeing with people who say that it works for them. However I have seen the article below on a post from a different site. It is from the December 2011 issue of Muscular Development  and makes for an interesting read, keep in mind that the experiments were performed on rats and rabbits:


DECA-DURABOLIN Weakens Tendons and Collagen

If you are not visiting musculardevelopment.com on a daily basis, you  are not getting breaking news and up-to-the-minute information. In a  recent thread started in the NO BULL forums a person wrote, ???_How come people don???t train like Ronnie anymore?_???  The thread talked about the change in the training style of all the  bodybuilders to more high-volume training and less high-intensity  training. With the exception of Branch Warren, there are not many pros  who are training with high intensity. It may be because today???s  bodybuilders don???t want to risk injury. Here is a list of some of the  top bodybuilders who have suffered major injuries or tears during their  training careers, off the top of my head:


Dorian Yates: tricep/bicep
Kevin Levrone: pec
Rich Gaspari: pec
Ronnie Coleman: tricep
Berry de May: pec
Chris Dickerson: pec
Tom Platz: bicep
Branch Warren: tricep/quad tendon

Is it just a coincidence that bodybuilders are more likely to suffer  injuries because of heavy training, or does the use of  anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS) have any impact on tendon/collagen  strength? The research is very preliminary, as only a few studies have  examined the effects of AAS on tendon and collagen strength. It was  shown that anabolic steroids alter the biomechanical properties of  tendons and reduce tendon flexibility.(1,2,3)

Some interesting theories have been suggested as why heavy anabolic  steroid use can cause tendon injury, which is based around cortisol  production and AAS. Researches have demonstrated that AAS combined with  tension overload reduced MMP2 activity (MMP2 is a gene responsible for  collagen production) and increased serum values of cortisol.(4) During  cortisol treatment, the serum levels of genes responsible for collagen  production decrease, suggesting that cortisol suppresses the synthesis  of collagen production.(5) The reduction in genes for collagen and  tendons have been speculated as to why AAS makes bodybuilders  susceptible to injuries. New research links the use of high doses of  anabolic steroids to tendon and collagen dysfunction, which may make a  bodybuilder think twice about training heavily while using anabolics.

_GENE EXPRESSION IN TENDONS/COLLAGEN AFTER HEAVY AAS USE_

Researchers in the European Journal of Applied Physiology examined how  heavy use of the anabolic steroid Deca-Durabolin affected collagen  strength in rats.  The rats were separated into two groups: natural  training and training with heavy anabolic steroid use. The dose the  researchers administered to the rats was considered supra-physiological ???  Deca-Durabolin (nandrolone decanoate) 5mg/kg of bodyweight.

The rats were cleverly forced to perform resistance exercise, but you  can???t just tell a rat to start benching ??? so the researchers attached  weights to the rats??? backs.  They dropped the rats into a tank of water  and the rats immediately jumped out of the water as soon as they were  dunked. Every week, the researchers gradually made the weight on the  rats??? backs heavier and heavier until at the end of seven weeks the  weight was 80 percent of their bodyweight. The researchers dropped the  rats in the tank so that they performed this for 4 sets x 10 repetitions  of ???jumps??? with 30-second rest periods. After that, they rats were  sacrificed and the rats??? tendons and collagen were examined for gene  expression.

There were some very interesting findings after seven weeks of training  with anabolic steroids, compared with the natty (natural) group of rats.  _The natty group did not have any biochemical changes in the rat  tendon/collagen properties, while the anabolic steroid group had major  changes.(6) The Deca-Durabolin group had reduced biochemical properties  of genes involving tendon and collagen strength._

It is interesting to note that AAS administration reduced the  accumulation of IGF-1 mRNA levels in some tendon regions, compared to  the non-treated, trained group. This decrease of IGF-1 mRNA levels  induced by AAS administration may be related to the observed decreases  collagen expression when considering the possible connection between  IGF-1 and collagen synthesis.(8) The AAS treatment also decreased the  MMP-2 mRNA expression (this gene encodes an enzyme for collagen).

The above study is similar to another recently published study, which  showed that nandrolone impaired the healing of rotator cuffs of rabbits.  In the latter study, male rabbits underwent an incision in the rotator  cuff and were divided into groups with anabolic steroids (nandrolone  decanoate, 10mg/kg) and natural recovery. Groups that did not receive  anabolic steroids showed better healing and more tendon strength  compared to groups that received anabolic steroids. Microscopic  examination of specimens from the groups with anabolic steroid use  showed focal fibroblastic reaction and inflammation, suggesting an  impaired healing response.(7)

The key point is that many of these studies were using  supraphysiological dosages of steroids that could be like the typical  Olympia stack ??? but the new research suggests that a high-volume  approach to training with less weight may be a better approach to use  for a bodybuilder than a high-intensity, heavy weight program that puts  more stress on the tendons and makes them more susceptible to injury.

By Robbie Durand, M.A., Senior Science Editor of Muscular Development

References:

1. Evans NA, Bowrey DJ, Newman GR (1998) Ultrastructural analysis of ruptured tendon from anabolic steroid users. _Injury_, 29:769-773.
2: Marqueti RC, Prestes J, Paschoal M, Ramos OH, Perez SE, Carvalho HF,  Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2008) Matrix metallopeptidase 2 activity in  tendon regions: effects of mechanical loading exercise associated to  anabolic-androgenic steroids, _Eur J Appl Physiol_, 104:1087-1093.
3: Marqueti RC, Prestes J, Wang CC, Ramos OH, Perez SE, Nakagaki WR,  Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2010). Biomechanical responses of  different rat tendons to nandrolone decanoate and load exercise. _Scand J Med Sci Sports_, 29.
4: Marqueti RC, Parizotto NA, Chriguer RS, Perez SEA, Selistre-de-Araujo  HS (2006) Androgenic-anabolic steroids associated with mechanical  loading inhibit matrix metallopeptidase activity and affect the  remodeling of the Achilles tendon in rats. _Am J Sport Med_, 34:1274-1280.
5: Oikarinen A, Autio P, Vuori J, Va¨a¨na¨nen K, Risteli L, Kiistala U,  Risteli J (1992) Systemic glucocorticoid treatment decreases serum  concentrations of carboxyterminal propeptide of type I procollagen and  aminoterminal propeptide of type III procollagen. _Br J Dermatol_, 126:172-178.
6: Marqueti RC, Heinemeier KM, Durigan JL, de Andrade Perez SE,  Schjerling P, Kjaer M, Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS. Erratum to:  Gene expression in distinct regions of rat tendons in response to jump  training combined with anabolic androgenic steroid administration. _Eur J Appl Physiol_, 2011 Sep 8.
7: Papaspiliopoulos A, Papaparaskeva K, Papadopoulou E, Feroussis J,  Papalois A, Zoubos A. The effect of local use of nandrolone decanoate on  rotator cuff repair in rabbits. _J Invest Surg_, 2010 Aug;23(4):204-7.
8: Heinemeier KM, Olesen JL, Schjerling P, Hassad F, Langberg H, Baldwin  KM, Kjaer M (2007b) Short-term strength training and the expression of  myostatin and IGF-1 isoforms in rat muscle and tendon: differential  effects of specific contraction types. _J Appl Physiol_, 102:573-581.


----------



## RockShawn (Jan 10, 2012)

Might make sense. I didn't have jount problems before or during my cycle with deca but after pct and starting next cycle - tons of elbow pain I'd never had before. Now i'm wondering if the deca did damage that i didn't notice till after it was outta my system. I was blaming it on EQ in my last cycle causing my joints to be "drier"


----------



## pieguy (Jan 10, 2012)

Why would EQ make your joints drier? If anything, most people feel joints are better on EQ...


----------



## RockShawn (Jan 10, 2012)

pieguy said:


> Why would EQ make your joints drier? If anything, most people feel joints are better on EQ...


 
I didn't mean they felt drier, I was assuming since EQ is a Drier compound that thats what was contributing to my elbow pain. In reality it could have been the tren or the dbol or the hgh or the test I was on at the time as well.


----------

