# no death linked to steroids..really?



## bjg (Feb 15, 2012)

i know many will contradict me here and it is a subject that is over discussed but i would like to mention few points especially to those natural and teen bodybuilders.

point #1: If you check the number of bodybuilders and pro athletes that died at a young age  (while in perfect shape apparently) you will see a high percentage compared to normal population,  while  logically it should be the opposite since sports and bodybuilding is supposed to give you better health..then one can logically conclude that there is a common element among those pro athletes that is causing all these death

point #2: you will see articles saying that no death was caused by steroids or proven to be caused by steroids right? well of course ! since all the death are either heart attacks or some kind of cancer or etc... there is no illness called "steroids" that will kill you, it is not easy to DIRECTLY link a heart attack to steroids. they will say his death was not linked to steroids but incidently he was a steroids user. 

like saying cigarettes will not kill you...many smokers die from heart attacks and cancer ..but not from cigarettes!!!! smokers will tell you that no death was linked to cigarettes ..of course there is no illness called "cigarettes".

and even worst they will tell you mr so and so died from lung cancer and he does not smoke!

Got my point ?


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## redz (Feb 15, 2012)

Many athletes die from head traumas for example football players going head to head or boxers being repeatidly struck in the head. Pro wrestlers also fall in to this as well many of them are addicted to pain killers and other drugs. It's hard to draw conclusive evidence.


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## Curt James (Feb 15, 2012)

bjg said:


> If you check the number of bodybuilders and pro athletes that died at a young age  (while in perfect shape apparently)* you will see* a *high percentage* compared to *normal population*




*Cite, please.*
Define high percentage.
Define normal population.

bjg, I understand you're passionate about natural bodybuilding and believe you have created more than one thread or written more than one post commenting on the dangers of AAS, however it's important that actual studies be conducted.

Unfounded commentary helps no one, imo.

Have you read this?







From *Anabolic steroid abuse and cardiac sudde... [Arch Pathol Lab Med. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI*


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## Curt James (Feb 15, 2012)

redz said:


> Many athletes die from head traumas for example football players going head to head or boxers being repeatidly struck in the head. Pro wrestlers also fall in to this as well many of them are addicted to pain killers and other drugs. *It's hard to draw conclusive evidence.*



Especially without longterm studies. This is another reason AAS should be legalized or decriminalized. 

Due to the sizable cost a full series of clinical trials may incur, the burden of paying for all the necessary people and services is usually borne by the sponsor who may be a governmental organization, a pharmaceutical, or biotechnology company. Since the diversity of roles may exceed resources of the sponsor, often a clinical trial is managed by an outsourced partner such as a contract research organization or a clinical trials unit in the academic sector.

More @ *Clinical trial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*


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## bjg (Feb 15, 2012)

Curt: i really don't need any studies i can see around me what is happening and again many studies done on the same subject are contradictory ..it all depends who is funding these studies...however objective medical books are clear about steroids effects and one does not need a study to reach conclusions.
and who knows perhaps tomorrow a study will come out and tell you that steroids cause a heart attack ..what would you do if you were a steroid user? would you say Fuck iam screwed!
there are no studies stating that smoking directly causes lung cancer  and no one knows how cancer really starts and yet you cannot deny that smoking can cause cancer.
 and finally i showed in many other threads studies that are conclusive about some steroids causing cysts on internal organs and even causing chromosomal damage to users and offsprings and i mean conclusive studies done on animals.


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## bjg (Feb 15, 2012)

redz said:


> Many athletes die from head traumas for example football players going head to head or boxers being repeatidly struck in the head. Pro wrestlers also fall in to this as well many of them are addicted to pain killers and other drugs. It's hard to draw conclusive evidence.



true ..but search for bodybuilders who died young and you will find a long list ranging from heart attacks to antidepressive medicine overdose, to all kinds of reasons and none is really steroids but all could be TRIGGERED by steroids or indirectly caused by steroids.


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## Curt James (Feb 15, 2012)

bjg said:


> Curt: i really don't need any studies i can see around me what is happening and again many studies done on the same subject are contradictory ..it all depends who is funding these studies...however objective medical books are clear about steroids effects and one does not need a study to reach conclusions.
> and who knows perhaps tomorrow a study will come out and tell you that steroids cause a heart attack ..what would you do if you were a steroid user? would you say Fuck iam screwed!
> *there are no studies stating that smoking directly causes lung cancer*  (snip)



"On average, smokers increase their risk of lung cancer between 5 and 10-fold and in developed countries, smoking is responsible for upwards of 80% of all lung cancers. Using American data, 24% of men who smoke can expect to developing cancer during their expected life time.

Recently, the spread of tobacco use to developing countries has led to papers describing similar patterns there. Thus, in a report from India, roughly two-thirds of all patients with lung cancer were smokers, using either cigarettes and/or bidis, hand-rolled tobacco. Among 54 female patients, only 5% were smokers, reflecting both the low prevalence of tobacco use among women and the cancer-causing effects of environmental tobacco smoke. In a study of 1,000,000 deaths in China, lung cancer risk was two to four times higher among men who smoked compared to men who did not smoke and this association was generally consistent over both rural and urban areas."

From *WHO | Cancer*

Find that kind of data on AAS.


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## bjg (Feb 16, 2012)

they stated risks and statistics but not conclusive cause of death...they cannot be conclusive like in the case of steroids while everybody knows that the effects of steroids can lead to health problems and death...all i have to do is look around me, i even know pros ( and very well known pros i wont say the name that secretly got treated for serious liver problems)
however studies on rats and cows showed conclusive evidence of steroid effects, such studies cannot be done on humans for obvious reasons


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## GFR (Feb 16, 2012)

OP is a retard and has clearly never read a book in her life.


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## KelJu (Feb 16, 2012)

bjg said:


> Curt: i really don't need any studies i can see around me what is happening and again many studies done on the same subject are contradictory ..it all depends who is funding these studies...however objective medical books are clear about steroids effects and one does not need a study to reach conclusions.
> and who knows perhaps tomorrow a study will come out and tell you that steroids cause a heart attack ..what would you do if you were a steroid



To say that you do not need an objective study is the argument of mental midgets. 


Do steroids have negative side effects? Yes.
Do all people experience negative side effects? No.
Are steroids harmful? Yes.
Do all people experience harmful side effects? No.

The four statements above are fact. What can you derive from them? Not a fucking thing. Those statements are essentially the only facts we have and those four facts can be applied to almost anything we put into our bodies. 

We need long-term research to even begin the discussion of how "bad" steroids are. Relying on anecdotes and what we see is retarded. Someone might say that Arnold's heart problems were caused by steroids he took during his career. Well, what about all the other bodybuilders that took just as many steroids as he did, but have no heath problems today. What about Lou? What about Franco?


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## bigbenj (Feb 16, 2012)

We've been down this road a million times.

There's big difference between USE and ABUSE.

Abuse anything, and you're going to run into problems.

Andreas Munzer, abused diuretics and the like. Dead. No surprise, when you're abusing the shit out these things.

Steroids don't kill people. Alcohol doesn't kill people. Guns don't kill people. Cars don't kill people. Bombs don't kill people. People kill people.

Do you understand this?


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## hypo_glycemic (Feb 16, 2012)

^ I understand and you are correct Benj. That's a good way to put it bro


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## bigbenj (Feb 16, 2012)

This dude is always on an anti-steroid crusade.


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## ANIMALHAUS (Feb 16, 2012)

bigbenj said:


> This dude is always on an anti-steroid crusade.



He's such a tool.  BJG, why did you find it necessary to post this in a section dedicated to NATURAL BODYBUILDING?  I'm so tired of your bullshit propaganda.


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## chucky1 (Feb 16, 2012)

ANIMALHAUS said:


> He's such a tool.  BJG, why did you find it necessary to post this in a section dedicated to NATURAL BODYBUILDING?  I'm so tired of your bullshit propaganda.


^ this Im so over seeing you dumb ass posts go some where else dude


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## Curt James (Feb 16, 2012)

KelJu said:


> To say that you do not need an objective study is the argument of mental midgets.
> 
> 
> Do steroids have negative side effects? Yes.
> ...



I suppose it could be a cover story but *his heart problem was reported as congenital.*



bigbenj said:


> This dude is always on an anti-steroid crusade.



Stating the obvious. There are other threads if you're not interested in reading his "anti-steroid crusade" posts.



ANIMALHAUS said:


> *He's such a tool.*  BJG, why did you find it necessary to post this in a section dedicated to NATURAL BODYBUILDING?  I'm so tired of your *bullshit propaganda.*



Again, there are other threads. This is not AG. Create a bjg thread *there*.


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## bigbenj (Feb 16, 2012)

So he should go on an anti-steroid campaign, and we should just sit back and watch him spread his bullshit?

This has nothing to do with what section were in this, it has to do with proper reporting and presenting all facts.


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## Calves of Steel (Feb 16, 2012)

Steroids raise your blood pressure, orals mess up your lipids pretty bad, stepping over to the dark side may reduce your inhibitions towards other drugs, and you may end up with lower testosterone levels for life if you abuse them or if you are unlucky. Other than that, it's all cosmetic IMO. Some people can use them safely and responsibly, some can't. They're definitely not for everybody, and especially not for teenagers.


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## Powermaster (Feb 17, 2012)

We all die sometime. Might as well be big, strong, happy, and horny as hell when you go.


....or you could be a whimpy bitch full of estrogen with a huge gut and die of prostate cancer.

I choose option A.


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## PushAndPull (Feb 17, 2012)

Powermaster said:


> We all die sometime. Might as well be big, strong, happy, and horny as hell when you go.
> 
> 
> ....or you could be a whimpy bitch full of estrogen with a huge gut and die of prostate cancer.
> ...



What the hell? Are you saying that if you don't use gear then you're a whimpy bitch full of estrogen?


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## BIGBEN2011 (Feb 17, 2012)

PushAndPull said:


> What the hell? Are you saying that if you don't use gear then you're a whimpy bitch full of estrogen?


yes that is what he was sayingd  do we need to add dumb to the list all so.


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## bjg (Feb 17, 2012)

Calves of Steel said:


> Steroids raise your blood pressure, orals mess up your lipids pretty bad, stepping over to the dark side may reduce your inhibitions towards other drugs, and you may end up with lower testosterone levels for life if you abuse them or if you are unlucky. Other than that, it's all cosmetic IMO. Some people can use them safely and responsibly, some can't. They're definitely not for everybody, and especially not for teenagers.



exactly steroids do have bad side effects on EVERYBODY , these side effects do not have to be fatal but they become serious with time until their effects can reach a point where they could become fatal. They could be used safely but usually this is done by mature people not by teens and even young new bodybuilders and by new i mean not before 10 years of lifting.
besides all that i really question anything positive that comes from them except short term cosmetic effect. Is it worth it? for some yes and for some no.
of course one could argue about heart problems due to steroids but remember that steroids will make internal changes including your circulatory system and heart which in time could lead to problems.  i personally know people who died suddenly from heart failure and they really looked in competition shape when this happened. 
unfortunately some people in this forum do not have the maturity to engage in a discussion , instead they go on with their stupid insults, ..
i am a gym owner and people like that are not allowed to step in my gym.
As pushandpull said: if you are natural does not mean you are wimpy full of estrogen in fact the opposite is true ..juicers will end up wimpy on estrogen ..this is a fact ..NONE of my friends juicers who are my age and even 10 years younger can come Close to me ..simply NONE even with their steroids and all the gear they take..why? because they relied on gear all their lives and i relied on years of hard training. this is a SIMPLE FACT. period.


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## 69grunt (Feb 17, 2012)

Young people are not ready for roids,they're are too fuckin' crazy ,they get all emotional
and end up killin' themselves over a girlfriend,or a freakin' ballgame,or flunkin' an exam.


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## PushAndPull (Feb 17, 2012)

BIGBEN2011 said:


> yes that is what he was sayingd  do we need to add dumb to the list all so.



We could. If you don't use gear then you're a dumb whimpy bitch full of estrogen
Likewise you could say that if you use gear then you're a pussy that couldn't get any size naturally.


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## Powermaster (Feb 17, 2012)

PushAndPull said:


> What the hell? Are you saying that if you don't use gear then you're a whimpy bitch full of estrogen?



LOL. Yeah, that's what I said but wasn't serious.


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## PushAndPull (Feb 17, 2012)

^^^ Sometimes it's hard to tell


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## Zaphod (Feb 17, 2012)

bjg said:


> exactly steroids do have bad side effects on EVERYBODY , these side effects do not have to be fatal but they become serious with time until their effects can reach a point where they could become fatal. They could be used safely but usually this is done by mature people not by teens and even young new bodybuilders and by new i mean not before 10 years of lifting.
> besides all that i really question anything positive that comes from them except short term cosmetic effect. Is it worth it? for some yes and for some no.
> of course one could argue about heart problems due to steroids but remember that steroids will make internal changes including your circulatory system and heart which in time could lead to problems.  i personally know people who died suddenly from heart failure and they really looked in competition shape when this happened.
> unfortunately some people in this forum do not have the maturity to engage in a discussion , instead they go on with their stupid insults, ..
> ...



How can you say steroids have a bad side effects on everybody?  Especially without any research to back it up.


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## sassy69 (Feb 17, 2012)

bjg said:


> exactly steroids do have bad side effects on EVERYBODY , these side effects do not have to be fatal but they become serious with time until their effects can reach a point where they could become fatal. They could be used safely but usually this is done by mature people not by teens and even young new bodybuilders and by new i mean not before 10 years of lifting.
> *besides all that i really question anything positive that comes from them except short term cosmetic effect. *Is it worth it? for some yes and for some no.
> of course one could argue about heart problems due to steroids but remember that steroids will make internal changes including your circulatory system and heart which in time could lead to problems.  i personally know people who died suddenly from heart failure and they really looked in competition shape when this happened.
> unfortunately some people in this forum do not have the maturity to engage in a discussion , instead they go on with their stupid insults, ..
> ...



Because you can't isolate the conversation to some tightly targeted audience,  I think the whole of the older folks who are on HRT would strongly argue this statement. If you've ever seen a guy go thru living w/ naturally low or reduced test levels as he gets older, its really, really sad. Depression, muscle loss, etc. FWIW, you might even argue about how critical birth control has been in helping women over the last several decades, deal w/ raging PMS. Same thing - hormone levels. Low or high - the point is the body operates on homestasis and extremes in any one area produce issues.


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## Curt James (Feb 17, 2012)

Ben, _everyone_, I encourage you to refute what you see as error without benefit of ad hominem.


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## bjg (Feb 17, 2012)

PushAndPull said:


> We could. If you don't use gear then you're a dumb whimpy bitch full of estrogen
> Likewise you could say that if you use gear then you're a pussy that couldn't get any size naturally.



the second statement is more accurate
 sassy i am not referring to the usage of steroids for medical reasons , i am talking about the use of steroids just for cosmetic reasons, and that for me is already an abuse.
Zaphod of course it has negative effects on everybody such as increasing LDL levels, etc... some of the negative effects of steroids are always present on everybody and all research back it up  but some other negative effects are not present or present to a lesser degree. remember that there is a long list of negative effects and a very very short one on positive effects.
i know a girl who is 25 (bb on steroids) with a cholesterol level of fat old guy..and it is not hereditary for a fact, now if she dies (hope not i like her) from a heart attack who is going to blame steroids?


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## GFR (Feb 17, 2012)

OP must be mad because steroids did not work for him.


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## cg89 (Feb 17, 2012)

steroids make you strong. don't abuse follow protocols check dosages get blood work and you'll be fine


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## sassy69 (Feb 17, 2012)

bjg said:


> the second statement is more accurate
> sassy i am not referring to the usage of steroids for medical reasons , i am talking about the use of steroids just for cosmetic reasons, and that for me is already an abuse.
> Zaphod of course it has negative effects on everybody such as increasing LDL levels, etc... some of the negative effects of steroids are always present on everybody and all research back it up  but some other negative effects are not present or present to a lesser degree. remember that there is a long list of negative effects and a very very short one on positive effects.
> i know a girl who is 25 (bb on steroids) with a cholesterol level of fat old guy..and it is not hereditary for a fact, now if she dies (hope not i like her) from a heart attack who is going to blame steroids?



As I said, you can't make a statement about steroids and expect to scope the conversation. It just ain't gonna happen. Its a spectrum range of use, and probably underutilized from a medical standpoint. 

As you are noting and has been called out, the bigger deal is moderation & educated use.


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## Curt James (Feb 17, 2012)

^^^^ Well said.


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## Arnold (Feb 18, 2012)

bjg said:


> i know many will contradict me here and it is a subject that is over discussed but i would like to mention few points especially to those natural and teen bodybuilders.
> 
> point #1: If you check the number of bodybuilders and pro athletes that died at a young age  (while in perfect shape apparently) you will see a high percentage compared to normal population,  while  logically it should be the opposite since sports and bodybuilding is supposed to give you better health..then one can logically conclude that there is a common element among those pro athletes that is causing all these death
> 
> ...



I do not personally know of any deaths of athletes, bodybuilders, etc. that were directly linked to AAS use/abuse. There are always other factors involved that ultimately cause their death, not AAS.


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## bjg (Feb 18, 2012)

prince as i said it is very hard to find a direct link..the other factors you talked about..they did not come from nowhere...i mean when you see a guy who is in superb competing shape 25 years old no medical history and then he dies from a heart attack  then you ve got to ask yourself questions...
besides all the side effects of steroids are not just side effects that stop there..these side effects lead to other and other effects...it is like a chain reaction. you don't need research to know that ..you just need your analytical thinking.
Besides tell me how many steroids users stop at one or two cycles????? or stay within  certain limits..from what i see in the Anabolic section here , most of them are way beyond addicts.


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## hoyle21 (Feb 18, 2012)

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/41392...etes-sudden-deaths-spur-call-heart-screening/


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## hoyle21 (Feb 18, 2012)

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2011/11/21/hlsa1121.htm


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## Curt James (Feb 18, 2012)

hoyle21 said:


> Teen athletes



From that article:

In the Italian study, one in 50 athletes were told they couldn’t play as a result of the ECG tests, Shannon said. “To prevent one death in the U.S., where there’s a lower rate of inherited heart conditions that lead to sudden cardiac arrest, you’d have to stop almost 2,000 kids from playing sports,” he added.

Parents could elect to have an ECG test done on their child/athlete.


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## Curt James (Feb 18, 2012)

hoyle21 said:


> amednews: Many physicians unfamiliar with student-athlete heart screening guidelines :: Nov. 21, 2011 ... American Medical News



From that article:

Even the most thorough exams won't detect everything, said Dr. Washington, a member of the American Academy of Pediatrics' Council on Sports Medicine & Fitness. For example, an athlete may get a viral infection months after the exam and develop myocarditis or inflammation of the myocardium. "Even if you did EKGs and ultrasounds on everybody, you are still going to have kids who are going to die unexpectedly," he said.


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## bjg (Feb 19, 2012)

All what you have mentioned as studies did not involve steroids so they are irrelevant for our discussion, your way of thinking is by negative logic: that is mr x died from a heart attack but mr x does not smoke hence smoking does not hurt...This is a wrong way of thinking.
it happens that i am an EKG expert since i designed state of the art EKG advanced analysis devices...there are methods to predict heart problems ahead of time but it is reserved for research and are not common cardiologist practice. But it is always true that some things can go undetected....however this is the case for any disease and one can always find reasons to deny the bad effects of steroids ..you can always find excuses.


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## heavyiron (Feb 19, 2012)

Heart attacks are very common, to assume the heart attack was caused by steroids is also illogical. 

I have used steroids many years. I get frequent blood work and see a doctor every 6 months. I have had some side effects but nothing life threatening. There are many many people just like me.

Many medications can cause harm. Tylenol causes death from time to time but many folks have zero problems with Tylenol. To demonize a particular medicine seems odd however I do think education is great. We have studies that show little side effects from testosterone use even when used for 5 months (much longer than a standard cycle).

Our culture is open to plastic surgery and surgeries to remove body fat mechanically but the media has vilified steroids when used for cosmetic reasons. I find that a bit hypocritical. 

I would love to see actual scientific data showing the real side effects of steroids that are life threatening but so far this data is elusive. Why is it that we cannot link many steroids directly to death? Maybe the risk is so low a pattern cannot be scientifically mapped out yet. This then raises another point. How dangerous are steroids in relation to other things? Getting in my car and driving to the store can directly lead to my death so do I stop driving? Tylenol has wiped out many livers so do I stop taking Tylenol all together? Water overdose is a reality so do I stop drinking large amounts of water? 

Some people have a higher tolerance to risk. I think we should allow adults to take risks in a free society. If an adult wants to jump out of an airplane and sky dive then great. If a lady wants to get liposuction then great. If a guy uses an extra Tylenol for his headache then great. If I want to use Testosterone then great. The bottom line is you are either for freedom or against it. Testosterone is relatively safe in comparison to driving a car. I think its silly that government has criminalized its use. Hopefully it won't ever be a felony to use Tylenol but for those who fight against freedom they may one day get their wish. I'm all for education but let's be honest. Testosterone is a pretty safe medication.


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## Bowden (Feb 19, 2012)

bjg said:


> true ..but search for bodybuilders who died young and you will find a long list ranging from heart attacks to antidepressive medicine overdose, to all kinds of reasons and none is really steroids but all could be TRIGGERED by steroids or indirectly caused by steroids.



You understand that bodybuilding, especially at the competition level has nothing to do with training just to stay healthly?

Bodybuilding training in some cases could be the trigger that causes early death if someone has a undiagnosed physical problem then starts bodybuilding training.

These risks have nothing to do with steroid use.

In example, someone has a underlying undiagnosed cardiovascular problem and starts a training program at the intensity level that bodybuilding requires without getting a physical exam before starting training.

Bodybuilding related diets as well in some cases have nothing to do with health, extreme bodybuilding diets consisting of consuming 4k+ calories and over 200 grams of protein a day have nothing to do with staying healthy.


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## bjg (Feb 19, 2012)

ok guys i gave up on you   no matter what i say or anybody says you will always find an excuse so go ahead take steroids but i can assure you i will meet you in 20 years  when i am 70 and will still be able to whip your ass in the gym kidding


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## .V. (Feb 19, 2012)

bjg said:


> ok guys i gave up on you   no matter what i say or anybody says you will always find an excuse so go ahead take steroids but i can assure you i will meet you in 20 years  when i am 70 and will still be able to whip your ass in the gym kidding



Everyone is missing one important point.  Testosterone is well documented (and I'm not going to look for the studies, it's easily available for anyone who wants to look) to increase LDL.  Elevated LDL levels do contribute to atherosclerosis.  So in the end, testosterone does increase risk of heart attack.  

This would be why historically men have had more heart attacks than women.  

Should this eliminate use?  I think not.  My doc and I had this discussion before I was placed on TRT therapy.  We also had the discussion about use vs abuse.  Use is when it serves a purpose and is not doing harm, abuse is continuing to use when it is causing harm.

However, exercise and diet can easily mitigate the increased risk caused by LDL, good diet and cardio will control LDL quite easily.  Supplementation with fish oil will also reduce LDL levels.  I've been on for quite a few years.  I went on knowing this risk.  I've mitigated this risk with diet and training.  I lift at least 3x a week.  I walk EVERY DAY.  I do sprints 2 or 3 times a week.  I DO NOT use IFBB pro dosages.  In the end, my lipid profile is better than when I started.

Oh yeah, and before you comment "without steroid use you wouldn't be on TRT"... well, no not exactly...my HTPA crashed long before I picked up the first needle, all on it's own, natural causes from a disease process caused by my immune system attacking my own body...CAUSED BY A SUPPOSEDLY HEALTHY DIET.  Too many carbs, too much protein, not enough fat in my diet put my health at risk.  Changing that around and using AAS by prescription has changed my life for the better.

Sorry, you can't do a blanket Mr. Mackey type statement saying, "Steroids are bad...M'Kay?"  Steroid abuse...sure it's got risks and is likely not a good idea.  Steroid use...sorry, must disagree with you.


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## bjg (Feb 19, 2012)

.V. said:


> Everyone is missing one important point.  Testosterone is well documented (and I'm not going to look for the studies, it's easily available for anyone who wants to look) to increase LDL.  Elevated LDL levels do contribute to atherosclerosis.  So in the end, testosterone does increase risk of heart attack.
> 
> This would be why historically men have had more heart attacks than women.
> 
> ...



GLAD YOU MENTIONED ALL THAT perhaps my point will be clearer:
I have always always said that steroids and test use for medical reasons are ok and they are not considered abuse because the dosage is well within the limits of therapeutic reasons. However steroids taken as a cycle for BB reasons are ALREADY AS IT IS an abuse because the dosage taken during a cycle are way beyond therapeutic reasons. and glad you mentioned LDL. because rise in LDL when taking test for medical reasons can be countered by a good diet and  supplements etc... however rise in LDL when doing a cycle cannot be rectified by anything and after few cycles LDL level will increase risks of heart attack , will damage arteries and will do many other things..and that's just LDL.....
anyways like i said i gave up


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## btex34n88 (Feb 19, 2012)

bjg said:


> exactly steroids do have bad side effects on EVERYBODY , these side effects do not have to be fatal but they become serious with time until their effects can reach a point where they could become fatal. They could be used safely but usually this is done by mature people not by teens and even young new bodybuilders and by new i mean not before 10 years of lifting.
> besides all that i really question anything positive that comes from them except short term cosmetic effect. Is it worth it? for some yes and for some no.
> of course one could argue about heart problems due to steroids but remember that steroids will make internal changes including your circulatory system and heart which in time could lead to problems. i personally know people who died suddenly from heart failure and they really looked in competition shape when this happened.
> unfortunately some people in this forum do not have the maturity to engage in a discussion , instead they go on with their stupid insults, ..
> ...


 
What gym do you own? I would love to come workout there. Im totally natural and enjoy lifting weights.


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## bjg (Feb 19, 2012)

btex34n88 said:


> What gym do you own? I would love to come workout there. Im totally natural and enjoy lifting weights.



unfortunately i left the united states (texas) long time ago, i just go there for visits 1 month a year, now i live in Beirut Lebanon. so if you are around you are welcome to workout my treat!


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## .V. (Feb 19, 2012)

bjg said:


> ... *however rise in LDL when doing a cycle cannot be rectified by anything* and after few cycles LDL level will increase risks of heart attack , will damage arteries and will do many other things..and that's just LDL.....
> anyways like i said i gave up



*And this is where you are mistaken. * Even at dosages of up to a gram a week, with proper diet and proper training that includes some very high intensity cardio as in a sprint 8, sprint 10, tabata, or the like...routine and DAILY long distance walks... take some fish oil too... and guess what?  LDL is completely normal...and I've got the labs to prove it.  This is with 12 week blasts and 12 week TRT cruises...blasts that include test, tren, and mast.  

My labs are much better NOW than they were before.  And yes, my doc is the one who first turned me on to AAS with TRT therapy.  And kind of like tylenol, if a little is good, then a lot must be better.  OK, so I'm joking here and not actually minimizing the risks...there certainly are risks...but none that can't be mitigated.  Even the polycythemia risk, which greatly increases risk of heart attack or stroke, even more than the lipid profile...easily mitigated by donating blood every couple of months.

Sorry man, 23 years of experience in ICU, ER, and EMS as a nurse and a paramedic... I know the risks better than most...and I still don't believe it every time chicken little says the sky is falling.  But also don't buy into the "it's harmless, no one's ever died from it" bullshit that we like to tell ourselves either.  

Sure, it's safe if done right with careful attention to lab work, to nutrition, and to training.  And sure it can kill you if you are idiotic about it.  Just like with anything else.

Oh and cancer risks...testosterone has never been shown to cause any cancer...ever...not a single documented case.  However, if you are going to get a cancer anyway, and if you do develop the disease and are using any AAS (except for breast cancer in women...test e and test c at relatively high doses are one of the treatments for certain types)...expect it to grow like crazy and probably kill you sooner.


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## bjg (Feb 19, 2012)

You are lucky since your system is coping with the steroids, but many do not respond as well....besides you follow yourself with blood tests etc... how many steroids users do that????? 
how about showing you a study on rats with conclusive evidence that tren causes chromosomal damage to user and offsprings and a study on tren causing cysts on cows internal organs.
and seriously would you advise your own son to use steroids???


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## hypo_glycemic (Feb 19, 2012)

^^ bjg. Not being disrespectful at all. Besides the accusation on the Internet and some printed studies, where do you obtain the studies on the adversity of AAS? 

I haven't read this whole post.. my bad! But coming on here to argue PAD., is like going to a bowling alley trying to knock pins down without a ball.. right?

I agree with some of your findings- but do you yourself have credentials to make such bias statements that really have no validity?


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## heavyiron (Feb 19, 2012)

I can lower my LDL when on testosterone through diet and exercise easily. I have the lab reports to prove it. One time my LDL was in the 60's while on a blast. Granted my fat intake was low but for me controlling LDL is easy. Bodybuilders are typically conscience of their diet and exercise on a regular basis so controlling lipids is easier for them.


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## hypo_glycemic (Feb 19, 2012)

^ Diet is everything regarding LDL.. Even people who don't use AAS -that have informal LDL-are recommended a clean diet with a moderate protein and high veggie/fruit baseline intake.


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## heavyiron (Feb 19, 2012)

hypo_glycemic said:


> ^ Diet is everything regarding LDL.. Even people who don't use AAS -that have informal LDL-are recommended a clean diet with a moderate protein and high veggie/fruit baseline intake.


Yup, low fats and high fiber do wonders for LDL.


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## Arnold (Feb 19, 2012)

bjg said:


> prince as i said it is very hard to find a direct link..the other factors you talked about..they did not come from nowhere...i mean when you see a guy who is in superb competing shape 25 years old no medical history and then he dies from a heart attack  then you ve got to ask yourself questions...
> besides all the side effects of steroids are not just side effects that stop there..these side effects lead to other and other effects...it is like a chain reaction. you don't need research to know that ..you just need your analytical thinking.
> Besides tell me how many steroids users stop at one or two cycles????? or stay within  certain limits..from what i see in the Anabolic section here , most of them are way beyond addicts.



by other factors I was referring to a predisposition (such as heart, liver, kidney issues) or other drugs, e.g. most pro bodybuilders use insulin and diuretics, that is the death of several bodybuilders in past history, not AAS.

using AAS is a risk just as anything and there certainly could be problems, side effects, etc., but AAS use does not kill people, unless maybe we're talking about using a shitload of methylated orals recklessly and end up with cirrhosis.

how many people die from alcohol and tobacco every year?


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## Powermaster (Feb 20, 2012)

bjg said:


> and seriously would you advise your own son to use steroids???



I would have advised my father to check into HRT if I had known to recognized the symptoms of estrogen dominance back then in his aging body which most likely his been determined in recent studies to have caused the cancer that killed him.


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## .V. (Feb 20, 2012)

bjg said:


> You are lucky since your system is coping with the steroids, but many do not respond as well....besides you follow yourself with blood tests etc... how many steroids users do that?????


No, I'm not lucky.  I just understand how the body works then eat and train appropriately.  Most people eat like shit and that's what leads to their heart attacks.  Bodybuilders eat for size rather than health, eat way too much protein, etc... too much protein is harsher on the kidneys than steroids.  Too many carbs and too much protein leads to the insulin response that causes the inflammatory response from the immune system that leads to plaque build up and elevated LDL.  Sorry dude, it's the food, and the excess, not the AAS usage that causes what you talk about.   This would be why I'm a fitness guy and NOT a bodybuilder.  But if someone is just interested in size...then that's their right too...if they want to take the risks that excessive food and less cardiovascular training will lead to, it's not my place to slam them for it.

 I've asked you about the human studies with trenbolone before...I've still not seen them.  Back it up please???  




			
				bjg said:
			
		

> and seriously would you advise your own son to use steroids???



If my son has a fever or a headache, I give him tylenol or ibuprofen...both of which have many confirmed kills...far more than AAS has been "claimed" to have...actually confirmed.  If my son has an infection, I give him an antibiotic, be it naturopathic or prescription, it's still an antibiotic...and still a poison which will have it's own negative effects on the body, some potentially fatal.

So if it was medically indicated, damn right I'd give him steroids under proper medical supervision.  If he was an adult and making his own choices...then I'd offer him the best guidance I could, advise him of the risks and the benefits so that he could make an informed decision...then he would make just that...his own informed, educated decision...It's called liberty, something I believe strongly in.


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## Curt James (Feb 20, 2012)

Prince said:


> how many people die from alcohol and tobacco every year?



Assuming that was rhetorical, but difficult to resist a good Google...

The World Health Organization reported that approximately 2.5 million die each year of alcohol related causes.

More @ *Alcohol kills more than AIDS, TB or violence: WHO*

Tobacco? More than 5 million. 

Aspirin, Tylenol, or Advil account for 100,000+ deaths while the Center for Disease Control lists deaths associated with AAS as _three_ (one of those from an infection from a dirty syringe).


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## bjg (Feb 20, 2012)

.V. said:


> No, I'm not lucky.  I just understand how the body works then eat and train appropriately.  Most people eat like shit and that's what leads to their heart attacks.  Bodybuilders eat for size rather than health, eat way too much protein, etc... too much protein is harsher on the kidneys than steroids.  Too many carbs and too much protein leads to the insulin response that causes the inflammatory response from the immune system that leads to plaque build up and elevated LDL.  Sorry dude, it's the food, and the excess, not the AAS usage that causes what you talk about.   This would be why I'm a fitness guy and NOT a bodybuilder.  But if someone is just interested in size...then that's their right too...if they want to take the risks that excessive food and less cardiovascular training will lead to, it's not my place to slam them for it.
> 
> I've asked you about the human studies with trenbolone before...I've still not seen them.  Back it up please???
> 
> ...



V:you answered me: FOR MEDICAL REASONS YOU GIVE HIM STEROIDS .
No body goes cycling with ibuprofen for cosmetic purposes.
and for others: LDL levels could be high no matter how much you diet , some people have predisposition to high LDL.


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## hoyle21 (Feb 20, 2012)

Curt James said:


> Assuming that was rhetorical, but difficult to resist a good Google...
> 
> The World Health Organization reported that approximately 2.5 million die each year of alcohol related causes.
> 
> ...



Really tough to make much of an argument here.


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## bjg (Feb 20, 2012)

interesting chromosomal damage mmm


SIDE EFFECTS OF TREN STEROIDS
 Mar 8, 2011 | By Tomas Linnaeus

The slang phrase "tren steroids" refers to use of trenbolone, a performance-enhancing drug invented in 1963 says "Advances in Environmental Biology.” This veterinary medication increases muscle size and caloric appetite in animals. Readily available, athletes such as body builders and weight lifters use tren steroids to enhance their physique and improve their strength. These drugs alter the body's natural testosterone system which is responsible for development and growth. Trenbolone is considerably more potent than testosterone, but it can cause both short-term reactions and long-term effects.

GENETIC DAMAGE
A 2007 report described in the journal "Advances in Environmental Biology" tested the effects of tren steroids on human lymphocytes, or white blood cells. These cells, maintained in a petri dish culture, are rarely abnormal. Yet, the addition of trenbolone produced a dramatic increase in the number of abnormal cells. This increase represents a change in chromosomal structure. Most cells experiencing such a change die off. Yet surviving cells can cause genetic changes in the host and the offspring.

PHYSICAL CHANGE
A 2007 study by H. K. Hotchkiss presented in the periodical "Toxicology Letters" looked at the impact of trenbolone in female rats. Fetuses exposed to tren steroids prior to birth displayed delayed puberty and deformed genitals. Trenbolone causes similar physical changes in male rats. A 2002 report in "Toxicological Sciences" showed that tren steroids shrank the adrenal gland. This study also indicated that trenbolone was far more effective when administered through the skin than by the mouth. This finding may explain why body builders typically use tren steroids in home-made transdermal preparations, says “Toxicology Letters.

CHEMICAL CHANGE
A 1999 experiment offered in the "Journal of Animal Science" assessed the lipid content of steer meat. Lipids include natural chemicals like fats, vitamins and sterols. Cholesterol is a lipid of particular interest due to its potential role in heart disease. Trenbolone pellets are often implanted into steers to increase their growth. Such implants, unfortunately, increase the cholesterol content present in steak. People may also absorb steroid additives directly from steak as well, says the "Journal of Animal Science.

BEHAVIORAL CHANGE
Two reports described by the "International Programme on Chemical Safety" observed changes in behavior induced by tren steroids. Male and female rats were given active metabolites of trenbolone: 17-alpha-trenbolone or 17-beta-trenbolone. Males, but not females, exhibited drug-induced behavioral changes. These rats frequently salivated and consumed more food than controls.

IMMUNE SUPPRESSION
A 2007 investigation in the "Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health" evaluated the effects of tren steroids on the immune system. Male rats received either trenbolone, testosterone, or saline. A delayed-type hypersensitivity test measured immune function. For this test, a potential allergen is placed under the skin, and the appearance of a rash within 72 hours indicates a positive reaction. A positive reaction indicates normal immunity. Rats given tren steroids showed less rash relative to those given either testosterone or saline.

REFERENCES
"Advances in Environmental Biology": Chromosomal Damage Induced by Androgenic Anabolic Steroids
"Toxicology Letters"; In Utero Exposure to the Environmental Androgen Trenbolone Masculinizes Female Sprague-Dawley Rats; H. K. Hotchkiss et al.; Nov. 1, 2007
"Journal of Animal Science"; Effect of Anabolic Implants on Beef Intramuscular Lipid Content; S. K. Duckett et al.; May 1999
"International Programme on Chemical Safety": Detailed Studies on Trenbolone Acetate
"Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Part A"; An Environmental Androgen, 17beta-trenbolone, Affects Delayed-Type Hypersensitivity and Reproductive Tissues in Male Mice; H. K. Hotchkiss et al.; Jan. 15, 2007

Read more: Side Effects Of Tren Steroids | LIVESTRONG.COM


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## bjg (Feb 20, 2012)

Short term effects ...again read carefully thise is a medical journal not some magazine selling steroids.

IRREVERSIBLE SIDE EFFECTS OF STEROIDS
 Jul 5, 2010 | By Tomas Linnaeus

Performance-enhancing drugs such as anabolic steroids increase muscle strength and body size. These drugs act on the body's testosterone system. This system plays an important role in reproduction and development. A 2006 poll presented in the medical journal "Drug and Alcohol Dependence" looked at steroid use in recreational athletes. About 14 percent of these athletes had used steroids. Such users risk short-term and long-lasting side effects. Many adverse reactions remain irreversible and cause permanent damage.

POSSIBLE MORTALITY
Establishing a causal relationship between steroid use and mortality risk remains difficult. Yet several case studies have shown that steroids played a role in the death of some users. For example, a 2009 report in "Forensic Science International" describes a case of fatal lung damage in a 29-year-old man abusing testosterone and nandrolone. On autopsy, this man had extensive blood-filled cysts present throughout his lungs. These steroid-induced lesions likely caused his death. And a 2006 review in the "Journal of Endocrinology" shows the addictive, and sometimes fatal, potential of steroids. Hamsters given ad lib access to anabolic drugs will occasionally self-administer them until they overdose.
Ask a Doctor Online Now A Doctor Will Answer You Now! Questions Answered Every 9 Seconds. Health.JustAnswer.com

VENTRICULAR ENLARGEMENT
Steroid users often experience changes in heart structure and vascular function. For example, testosterone intake typically increases blood pressure. Such increases are reversible, however, as they disappear upon steroid withdrawal. Yet the underlying mechanism often remains. A 2004 study in the journal "Heart" looked at cardiac parameters in strength athletes using, and not using, anabolic steroids. Results indicated left ventricular enlargement in users relative to nonusers. This change in heart structure remained one year after steroid use. The latter finding suggests that performance-enhancing drugs have permanent effects.

ATHEROGENIC LIPID PROFILE
With atherogenesis, plaques develop in the arteries that cause them to "harden" and narrow. Such plaques result from a high-cholesterol diet. This type of diet produces an atherogenic lipid profile characterized by a decrease in "good" cholesterol and plaque-fighting proteins as well as an increase in "bad" cholesterol and plaque-promoting proteins. A 2004 report in the "British Journal of Sports Medicine" shows that anabolic steroid intake for eight weeks negatively affects blood lipids, creating an atherogenic lipid profile. These steroid-induced changes did not normalize after six weeks of withdrawal, indicating irreversible damage.

CHROMOSOME DAMAGE
Some evidence suggests that anabolic steroids cause DNA damage and even cell death. A 2010 analysis in the journal "Steroids" evaluated oral mucosa cells using a micronucleus test. This test identifies carcinogens that cause genetic damage. Cells were obtained from the mouths of bodybuilders using anabolic steroids for two months. Findings included pyknosis, an irreversible condensation of chromatin in the nucleus of a dying cell. Such a result indicates chromosomal damage, a permanent change in DNA caused by short-term steroid intake. These genetic changes can affect both the host and the offspring.

REFERENCES
"Drug and Alcohol Dependence"; Anabolic Ergogenic Substance Users in Fitness-Sports: A Distinct Group Supported by the Health Care System; H. Striegel et al.; January 4, 2006
"Forensic Science International"; First Case of Fatal Pulmonary Peliosis Without Any Other Organ Involvement in a Young Testosterone Abusing Male; T. Vougiouklakis et al.; April 15, 2009
"Heart"; Are the Cardiac Effects of Anabolic Steroid Abuse in Strength Athletes Reversible?
"British Journal of Sports Medicine"; Effects of Androgenic-Anabolic Steroids on Apolipoproteins and Lipoprotein (a); F. Hartgens et al.; June 2004
"Steroids"; Chromosome Damage and Cytotoxicity in Oral Mucosa Cells after 2 Months of Exposure to Anabolic Steroids (Decadurabolin and Winstrol) in Weight Lifting; R.A. Martins et al.; June 1, 2010
Article reviewed by Christine Brncik     Last updated on: Jul 5, 2010

Read more: Irreversible Side Effects Of Steroids | LIVESTRONG.COM


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## bjg (Feb 20, 2012)

Short term effects ...again read carefully thise is a medical journal not some magazine selling steroids.

IRREVERSIBLE SIDE EFFECTS OF STEROIDS
 Jul 5, 2010 | By Tomas Linnaeus

Performance-enhancing drugs such as anabolic steroids increase muscle strength and body size. These drugs act on the body's testosterone system. This system plays an important role in reproduction and development. A 2006 poll presented in the medical journal "Drug and Alcohol Dependence" looked at steroid use in recreational athletes. About 14 percent of these athletes had used steroids. Such users risk short-term and long-lasting side effects. Many adverse reactions remain irreversible and cause permanent damage.

POSSIBLE MORTALITY
Establishing a causal relationship between steroid use and mortality risk remains difficult. Yet several case studies have shown that steroids played a role in the death of some users. For example, a 2009 report in "Forensic Science International" describes a case of fatal lung damage in a 29-year-old man abusing testosterone and nandrolone. On autopsy, this man had extensive blood-filled cysts present throughout his lungs. These steroid-induced lesions likely caused his death. And a 2006 review in the "Journal of Endocrinology" shows the addictive, and sometimes fatal, potential of steroids. Hamsters given ad lib access to anabolic drugs will occasionally self-administer them until they overdose.
Ask a Doctor Online Now A Doctor Will Answer You Now! Questions Answered Every 9 Seconds. Health.JustAnswer.com

VENTRICULAR ENLARGEMENT
Steroid users often experience changes in heart structure and vascular function. For example, testosterone intake typically increases blood pressure. Such increases are reversible, however, as they disappear upon steroid withdrawal. Yet the underlying mechanism often remains. A 2004 study in the journal "Heart" looked at cardiac parameters in strength athletes using, and not using, anabolic steroids. Results indicated left ventricular enlargement in users relative to nonusers. This change in heart structure remained one year after steroid use. The latter finding suggests that performance-enhancing drugs have permanent effects.

ATHEROGENIC LIPID PROFILE
With atherogenesis, plaques develop in the arteries that cause them to "harden" and narrow. Such plaques result from a high-cholesterol diet. This type of diet produces an atherogenic lipid profile characterized by a decrease in "good" cholesterol and plaque-fighting proteins as well as an increase in "bad" cholesterol and plaque-promoting proteins. A 2004 report in the "British Journal of Sports Medicine" shows that anabolic steroid intake for eight weeks negatively affects blood lipids, creating an atherogenic lipid profile. These steroid-induced changes did not normalize after six weeks of withdrawal, indicating irreversible damage.

CHROMOSOME DAMAGE
Some evidence suggests that anabolic steroids cause DNA damage and even cell death. A 2010 analysis in the journal "Steroids" evaluated oral mucosa cells using a micronucleus test. This test identifies carcinogens that cause genetic damage. Cells were obtained from the mouths of bodybuilders using anabolic steroids for two months. Findings included pyknosis, an irreversible condensation of chromatin in the nucleus of a dying cell. Such a result indicates chromosomal damage, a permanent change in DNA caused by short-term steroid intake. These genetic changes can affect both the host and the offspring.


REFERENCES
"Drug and Alcohol Dependence"; Anabolic Ergogenic Substance Users in Fitness-Sports: A Distinct Group Supported by the Health Care System; H. Striegel et al.; January 4, 2006
"Forensic Science International"; First Case of Fatal Pulmonary Peliosis Without Any Other Organ Involvement in a Young Testosterone Abusing Male; T. Vougiouklakis et al.; April 15, 2009
"Heart"; Are the Cardiac Effects of Anabolic Steroid Abuse in Strength Athletes Reversible?
"British Journal of Sports Medicine"; Effects of Androgenic-Anabolic Steroids on Apolipoproteins and Lipoprotein (a); F. Hartgens et al.; June 2004
"Steroids"; Chromosome Damage and Cytotoxicity in Oral Mucosa Cells after 2 Months of Exposure to Anabolic Steroids (Decadurabolin and Winstrol) in Weight Lifting; R.A. Martins et al.; June 1, 2010
Article reviewed by Christine Brncik     Last updated on: Jul 5, 2010

Read more: Irreversible Side Effects Of Steroids | LIVESTRONG.COM


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## bjg (Feb 20, 2012)

not going to put the whole article only the abstract


Chromosomal Damage Induced by Androgenic  Anabolic Steroids, Stanozolol and
Trenbolone, in Human Lymphocytes 
Ta n v eer  Beg , Ya sir Ha sa n   S id d iq u e   a n d  Mo h amma d  Af za l
Human Genetics and Toxicology Laboratory, Department of Zoology, Aligarh ,
2 0 2   0 0 2 ,  In d ia .
Ta nve er  Be g,  Ya sir  Ha sa n   S i d d iq ue   a nd   Mo ha mm a d   A fz al,:  C h ro m o so m a l  Da m age   Ind uc ed   b y
Androgenic Anabolic Steroids, Stanozolol and Trenbolone, in Human Lymphocytes, Am.-Eu r a sia n  J .
S u sta in .  A g ric .,  1 (1 ):  3 9 -4 3 ,  2 0 0 7
A B STR A C T
S ta n o z o lo l  a nd   tre n b o lo n e , c ommon ly  u se d   a s  p e rfo rma n c e  e n ha n cin g  a nd   b od yb u ild in g  d r ug s, we re   stu d ie d
fo r   th e ir  g en o to x ic   effe c t  o n   huma n  lymph o c yte   ch romo some s  u sin g  c hromo s oma l   abe r r atio n s  (CAs)  a nd   siste r
chroma tid  exchange s   (SCEs )  a s  pa r ame te r s, both  in  the  pr e s enc e   and  abs ence of  me tabolic   a c tiva tion  (S9 mix) .
Thi s   expe r iment was   a imed  a t   finding  the dos age   at whi ch  thes e  two  s te roids   a r e genotoxi c   enough  to  c aus e
chromosome damage. They were studied at 1, 10, 20,  40,  60 mM respectively, and were found to be similarly
g e n o to xic   a t  4 0   and   6 0   m M,  in  the   p re se nc e  as  we ll  as  ab se nc e  o f  S 9   m ix.  The   re sults  sugge st  a  str o n g
genotoxi c   e f fe ct of both  s t e roids   in  v i tro in human lymphocytes. 
Ke ywords : Stanozolol,  Trenbolone, Androgens, Genotoxicity, Chromosomal aberrations, Sister chromatid


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## bjg (Feb 20, 2012)

do you want more ??????there are hundreds more
here you go 
few lines i can send you the whole article ..but i think you got the idea
Nandrolone and stanozolol damage bodybuilders' DNA
A couple of days ago we wrote about an animal study in which a one-time injection of nandrolone decanoate caused genetic damage. Now mice are not men and genetic damage is nothing like cancer, but a 2010 Brazilian study has shown that 

humans can also damage their genes by using steroids.


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## bjg (Feb 20, 2012)

Hypo glycemic : finally my credentials? professor (PhD ) in biomedical engineering worked in baylor medical center dallas texas and oklahoma health science center ...may i say on state of the art projects ..2 patents , many articles, been on discovery channel for your info, what more????????
oh yest 35 years of bodybuilding
not being disrespectful either
what are your credentials????????
by the way in my 35 years of bb this is my conclusion: good genetics no steroids always beats poor genetics with steroids......seen it lived it still living it .


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## redz (Feb 20, 2012)

You must be a sad lonely person to do this all the time.


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## Curt James (Feb 20, 2012)

bjg said:


> Hypo glycemic : finally my credentials? professor (PhD ) in biomedical engineering worked in baylor medical center dallas texas and oklahoma health science center ...may i say on state of the art projects ..2 patents , many articles, been on discovery channel for your info, what more????????
> oh yest 35 years of bodybuilding
> not being disrespectful either
> what are your credentials????????
> by the way in my 35 years of bb this is my conclusion: good genetics no steroids always beats poor genetics with steroids......seen it lived it still living it .



Brother Doctor, calm down. I don't believe Hypo was being flippant as much as genuinely curious about your credentials.

I'd definitely agree with your belief -- good gen w no AAS > poor gen w AAS, but that doesn't address _superior genetics with intelligently applied AAS._

This is probably why I've never pinned -- Chihuahua structure. Why put a HEMI in a Yugo?


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## hypo_glycemic (Feb 20, 2012)

bjg said:


> Hypo glycemic : finally my credentials? professor (PhD ) in biomedical engineering worked in baylor medical center dallas texas and oklahoma health science center ...may i say on state of the art projects ..2 patents , many articles, been on discovery channel for your info, what more????????
> oh yest 35 years of bodybuilding
> not being disrespectful either
> what are your credentials????????
> by the way in my 35 years of bb this is my conclusion: good genetics no steroids always beats poor genetics with steroids......seen it lived it still living it .


 
Good to hear. My credentials are nothing as of a PHD..However I do have a BA in Nutrition and minor in food science. I've been around competitive bodybuilding since 1984.

I agree that if (abused) there are significant sides regarding internal organs and the main thing (possible plack build up around heart)...haven't seen facts about if the plack as a cause of death as much as vent health affects on heart. Since 1984 I've never seen a death- or cause of death from AAS. In fact, the stuff --it seems-- that you copied and pasted, doesn't have any relation to "death" using AAS? Only "test" that are associated with your stance, that have no record in regards to death? 

I'm not going to the alcohol and tobacco piece because we all know about those substances and the adverse sides and number of deaths realted to those.. I have a professor at Cal Poly San Louis Obispo CA that taught us in labs class the pros and cons of AAS. Also the ER room list, there has not been one death from a OD from AAS or long term use (documented). I think most of what we studied is abuse of cetain anabolics having problems with liver and kidney functions. Due to the fact there is not one valididation that concurs a death from direct use of AAS..I'd like to read more of the publications you have written.

I like this debate. You or whoever has some valid points. I don't dispute the internal organ piece and how some things can cuase damaged if used wrong or obessive use.. If you have been around body building for 30 plus years, you would know that all "steroid deaths" are caused from diuretics causing dehydrtation causing kidney failure and other problems. Not from direct use of AAS. If you can show me one death associated from the direct use of steroids, I'd be happy to see one..just one..listed and documented steroid death. Not the side affects that were done on animals..just one?

Regards


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## Glycomann (Feb 20, 2012)

Comparing smoking to anabolic steroids in terms of harmful effects is a false comparison. Smoking, which introduces 100s of carcinogens into the body, none of which resemble in structure or effect those attributes of any steroid hormone makes the comparison only a convenient falsehood for you to perpetuate the life of your opinion in this thread.

AAS may very well increase health risks but the OP dismisses the literature as so much bias reporting, clearly lacking any objectivity himself.  He projects his own intellectual weakness onto all of the scientific community rather than enter into the situation with defined questions and reading the literature in earnest. 


It is curious to me that the internet provides a comfortable platform for these individuals that fail to think and seemingly are supported by like minded intellectually incurious individuals.  This making all that actually think suffer their foolishness.

His arguments are so improperly crafted that there is no argument.  All that exists is an unsupported opinion packed with emotion and distrust of the sources of information that would inform him of the truth or at least guide him closer to that reality.

This thread disgusts me.


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## bjg (Feb 20, 2012)

hypo_glycemic said:


> Good to hear. My credentials are nothing as of a PHD..However I do have a BA in Nutrition and minor in food science. I've been around competitive bodybuilding since 1984.
> 
> I agree that if (abused) there are significant sides regarding internal organs and the main thing (possible plack build up around heart)...haven't seen facts about if the plack as a cause of death as much as vent health affects on heart. Since 1984 I've never seen a death- or cause of death from AAS. In fact, the stuff --it seems-- that you copied and pasted, doesn't have any relation to "death" using AAS? Only "test" that are associated with your stance, that have no record in regards to death?
> 
> ...


 first i did not mean to be arrogant with you again some of the studies i posted said (as i always say) it is very hard to DIRECTLY link death to steroids ..it is a complicated process and as you know one thing can lead to another. besides you don't have to die ..just being unhealthy and always under risks should be enough to deter you from AAS
but lets forget about all studies and think a bit:
any imbalance in the body can be fatal or if not fatal can harm you ...excess temperature is bad, excess adrenaline is bad, excess sugar is bad....,
and excess testosterone is bad. any test level above normal level range can be bad. when on a cycle the test levels can go 100 times or more above normal level!


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## bjg (Feb 20, 2012)

redz said:


> You must be a sad lonely person to do this all the time.



not sad at all and trust me far from being lonely (in fact i wish i was for a while need the rest if you know what i mean..) ...i do this for fun and to relax between classes or at home....


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## hypo_glycemic (Feb 20, 2012)

bjg said:


> first i did not mean to be arrogant with you again some of the studies i posted said (as i always say) it is very hard to DIRECTLY link death to steroids ..it is a complicated process and as you know one thing can lead to another. besides you don't have to die ..just being unhealthy and always under risks should be enough to deter you from AAS
> but lets forget about all studies and think a bit:
> any imbalance in the body can be fatal or if not fatal can harm you ...excess temperature is bad, excess adrenaline is bad, excess sugar is bad....,
> and excess testosterone is bad. any test level above normal level range can be bad. when on a cycle the test levels can go 100 times or more above normal level!


 
It's all good man..I didn't think you were coming off arrogant at all...

We can all agree to disagree. 

Just not sure why your on a bodybuilding forum taking a gamble on "junk science"? If you can't document one death,. everything would be negated.


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## bjg (Feb 20, 2012)

hypo_glycemic said:


> It's all good man..I didn't think you were coming off arrogant at all...
> 
> We can all agree to disagree.
> 
> Just not sure why your on a bodybuilding forum taking a gamble on "junk science"? If you can't document one death,. everything would be negated.



i am on bodybuilding forum because i am a bodybuilder and i like bodybuilding unfortunately i did not realize that Bodybuilding = taking steroids or is it?
at least for me it is not.
and also i am on the natural bb threads right? 
hey hypo g as much as i am against AAS why so many here are ragingly pro AAS? especially on a natural BB thread....when i was saying shit on the anabolic zone they told me to F ...off i think now i am entitled to tell them the same since i am on a Natural section don't you think youve got to agree with me on that one!


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## hypo_glycemic (Feb 20, 2012)

bjg said:


> i am on bodybuilding forum because i am a bodybuilder and i like bodybuilding unfortunately i did not realize that Bodybuilding = taking steroids or is it?
> at least for me it is not.
> and also i am on the natural bb threads right?
> hey hypo g as much as i am against AAS why so many here are ragingly pro AAS? especially on a natural BB thread....when i was saying shit on the anabolic zone they told me to F ...off i think now i am entitled to tell them the same since i am on a Natural section don't you think youve got to agree with me on that one!


 
I think it's the fact of not proving (a death) related to AAS? Even though it's the natural section, people are going to have opinions and not agree with your "studies" in general. 

I have respect for people who don't use AAS and have a lot of friends who feel the same way you do. But at the end of the day, they will admit that they haven't found any truth to accusations and a cause of death due to pinning testosterone or let's say..strong anabolics. 

As far as being "entitled to tell people what you think"..,It's freedom of speach-even if your wrong or right. IMO you don't have validity nor true documentation on AAS..So moving forward-or until you can come up with a death related to AAS use-It's still "junk science" and always will be- to be honest


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## Arnold (Feb 20, 2012)

why do people care what other people put into their bodies?


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## Curt James (Feb 20, 2012)

Prince said:


> why do people care what other people put into their bodies?



If I had a family member _pulling a Whitney_ I'd care very much, but I don't see a difference between a woman dealing with menopause by manipulating hormones and a man doing similar. Still don't understand the illegality of hormone use in males.  

And, yes, bjg, I remember you have no issue with legitimate TRT.


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## BIGBEN2011 (Feb 21, 2012)

i use gear but i am all so mature enough and smart enough to know that they are harmfull to you.and if what bjg puts on here does not make you think and want to stay as save as possable you are either dumb ass or a teen.when i was a teen i would have been saying dumb shit to bjg like steriods are cool they dont hurt you and you must be sad he is a fucking dr i am more than willing to hear some of his points of view and some may be wroung lots of what dr say are.but a lot is right to i am sure and i am allso smart enough to know people die from steriods all the time if you dont believe that there is a word for that it is denial.the thing i will take away from this thread is to use a small amount of test as i can to get the results i want.and hope like hell it does not end up killing me one day.thats real shit no study.just comen since from a regular joe.


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## bjg (Feb 21, 2012)

BIGBEN2011 said:


> i use gear but i am all so mature enough and smart enough to know that they are harmfull to you.and if what bjg puts on here does not make you think and want to stay as save as possable you are either dumb ass or a teen.when i was a teen i would have been saying dumb shit to bjg like steriods are cool they dont hurt you and you must be sad he is a fucking dr i am more than willing to hear some of his points of view and some may be wroung lots of what dr say are.but a lot is right to i am sure and i am allso smart enough to know people die from steriods all the time if you dont believe that there is a word for that it is denial.the thing i will take away from this thread is to use a small amount of test as i can to get the results i want.and hope like hell it does not end up killing me one day.thats real shit no study.just comen since from a regular joe.


 
hey thanx BIGBEN it takes courage to admit what you just did......true...today  teens don't respect anybody ....times are really changing
by the way here is something that happened today: i was in my friend's gym talking to him (he is a pro) and discussing what new logo he is going to use for his gym and he suggested to use the shape like a drawing of a bodybuilder...so i told him to use Serge Nubret as a model, then he asked me what happened to Nubret , so i answered that he died...then he asked how old was he ...i answered 72..
so he replied well that's good enough for a pro bodybuilder! 
now Nubret's death may or may have nothing to do with steroids ,..the point here is my friend's ANSWER.


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## ciulloboe (Feb 27, 2012)

good read.


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## hypo_glycemic (Feb 27, 2012)

I agree with some of what BJG has to say, BUT, the argument is that steroids can kill you? However, he or anybody has never documented proof that steroids "directly" have killed anybody?


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## hypo_glycemic (Feb 27, 2012)

BIGBEN2011 said:


> i use gear but i am all so mature enough and smart enough to know that they are harmfull to you.and if what bjg puts on here does not make you think and want to stay as save as possable you are either dumb ass or a teen.when i was a teen i would have been saying dumb shit to bjg like steriods are cool they dont hurt you and you must be sad he is a fucking dr i am more than willing to hear some of his points of view and some may be wroung lots of what dr say are.but a lot is right to i am sure and i am allso smart enough to know people die from steriods all the time if you dont believe that there is a word for that it is denial.the thing i will take away from this thread is to use a small amount of test as i can to get the results i want.and hope like hell it does not end up killing me one day.thats real shit no study.just comen since from a regular joe.



All respect bro, but where is proof that a steroid has killed anybody? And not indirectly .. Not just sides and alleged this or that, just document one death "directly" contributed to AAS? You made some big claims- so I was curious where you're info was obtained? Again, not being a dick , but your all over the place in your post bro.


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## BFHammer (Feb 27, 2012)

Where do you draw the line between cosmetic and medical is a question.  I've been prescribed TRT for years and it turns out how it was administered just made things worse.  Since the anthrax vaccinations my whole system is fucked.  The VA prescribed test at 200 every other week.  Now years later I go and research it more and realized the test just increased estrogen because I'm 80 lbs overweight from the insulin resistance/sleep apnea etc.  They are not allowed to prescribe a AI or HCG so I ended up here for information.  Insulin resistance has an inverse relationship to testosterone, how high should my test be to counter that?  The extra 80lbs is far more dangerous than AAS.  
Testosterone Replacement May Lower Death Rate Among Type 2 Men - Diabetes Health

APR 2011: Low Testosterone, Early Death? | Health and Fitness Tips for Men & Women
Men with the highest testosterone levels were 41% less likely to die  when compared to those with lower levels. “We found that low  testosterone predicts early mortality in men over the next 10 years or  so,” Khaw said. “But we think this finding needs to be replicated.”

So yes I'm at the point I will take as much as necessary along with GHRP 2, cjc, AI's to get my body and life back.  As I have to be on test for the rest of my life who is to say the doctor has the right to tell me where my levels should be when their range is massive?
What about someone who has a mental issues about their body image?  Is that still cosmetic or does that stray over  to medical?  Who should decide the doctor or the patient?

And Cholesterol has nearly zero impact on heart attacks other than if it's too low.  Cholesterol Does Not Cause Heart Disease

Statin drugs however will screw you up in an attempt to fix something that doesn't need a fix.


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## Curt James (Mar 1, 2012)

^^^^ Reps on recharge.


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## bjg (Mar 1, 2012)

BFHammer, cholesterol does cause heart problems and cardiovascular problems and can kill you, if you read the article you will see that the guy was talking about slightly high cholesterol .....if cholesterol is high it will damage your arteries and obstruct them and this will cause your heart to struggle and to fail...no question about that.... period.
now some studies suggested that eating high cholesterol food does not cause heart problems because there is a difference between high cholesterol due to food intake and high cholesterol formed in the blood one does not necessarily cause the other) some other claims were made following an experiment on rabbits.  Note that for every medical claim there is always another medical counterclaim However steroid use does rise cholesterol levels in the blood directly and that is not good at all.

anyways here is some quotes regarding AAS from the well known casey viator former champion and now renown international trainer during an interview.

*Q:* Casey, what are your thoughts on the future of bodybuilding?

*A:* I'm a little concerned about the large amounts of chemicals these guys are using, and I hope, somehow it can be toned down in the future. It hurts to see these guys ruining there health, just for cash and trophy's. There is a wonderful life after competing if you don't damage your insides too much with chemicals.

And as far as steroids are concerned i think i posted enough studies and there are hundreds more....


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## BP2000 (Mar 11, 2012)

hypo_glycemic said:


> Good to hear. My credentials are nothing as of a PHD..However I do have a BA in Nutrition and minor in food science. I've been around competitive bodybuilding since 1984.
> 
> I agree that if (abused) there are significant sides regarding internal organs and the main thing (possible plack build up around heart)...haven't seen facts about if the plack as a cause of death as much as vent health affects on heart. Since 1984 I've never seen a death- or cause of death from AAS. In fact, the stuff --it seems-- that you copied and pasted, doesn't have any relation to "death" using AAS? Only "test" that are associated with your stance, that have no record in regards to death?
> 
> ...


 

There is a big difference in using and ABUSING. You can drink a few beers a week and it won't hurt you. But if you can abuse alcohol and cause problem's. 

Here is abuse. How did his liver get so bad. 

Andreas Munzer's? scary stuff.
After months of stomach pain, Münzer was admitted to hospital on the morning of March 12. By 7pm, doctors had decided to operate to stop bleeding from his stomach, but shortly afterwards his liver and then kidneys failed. His condition by this point was too severe for a blood transfusion???he died on the morning of March 13, aged 31.[1][2]
The autopsy gave the cause of death as dystrophic multiple-organ-failure.[3] Some of the specific autopsy findings:[3]
* An extremely muscular physique, with an almost complete absence of subcutaneous fat
* Affecting the liver were *numerous table-tennis-ball-sized tumors, typical for doping; half the liver consisted simply of a crumbly mass, similar to polystyrene (Styrofoam)*
* Diminutive testes
* *Cardiac hypertrophy (Münzer's heart weighed 636g; a normal man's heart usually weighs 300???350g)*
Münzer's electrolytes were also completely out of balance, and his potassium levels were extremely high. Traces of about twenty different drugs were found, along with acute toxicity (perhaps caused by a stimulant).
Schwarzenegger sent a wreath to Munzer's funeral in Styria, with the message 'A last greeting to a friend.'[citation needed]
[edit] Münzer's drug regimen[3]
Daily
* Ephedrin
* AN 1
* Captagon
* Aspirin (to thin his blood and help with the pain of training)
* Valium
* Clenbuterol (muscle growth with fat loss)

10???6 weeks before an event
* 2 Injections of 250 mg Testoviron (mass gain in the muscles)
* 1 Injection Parabolan (anabolic to muscle growth)
* 30 Tablets Halotestin (anabolic steroid for force production)
* 30 Tablets Metandienone (anabolic steroid for mass and force production)
* 16 IU of STH (growth hormone: Muscle growth with simultaneous fat loss)
* 20 IU of Insulin

5???2 weeks before an event
* 3 Injections Masteron (for muscle hardship and sharpness)
* 2 Injections Parabolan (anabolic to muscle growth)
* 30 Tablets Halotestin (anabolic steroid for force production)
* 50 Tablets Stromba (anabolic to muscle maintenance and definition with more hardship)
* 2 Injections Stromba (anabolic to muscle maintenance and definition with more hardship)
* 24 IU of STH (growth hormone: Muscle growth with simultaneous fat loss)

Two weeks everyday until the competition
* 2 Injections Masteron (for muscle hardship and sharpness)
* 2 Injections Stromba (anabolic to muscle maintenance and definition with more hardship)
* 40 Tablets Halotestin (anabolic steroid for force production)
* 80 Tablets Stromba (anabolic to muscle maintenance and definition with more hardship)
* 24 IU of STH (growth hormone)
* Insulin
* Aldactone, and Lasix (water reduction in the muscle)


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## vancouver (Mar 11, 2012)

bjg said:


> Curt: i really don't need any studies i can see around me what is happening and again many studies done on the same subject are contradictory ..it all depends who is funding these studies...however objective medical books are clear about steroids effects and one does not need a study to reach conclusions.
> and who knows perhaps tomorrow a study will come out and tell you that steroids cause a heart attack ..what would you do if you were a steroid user? would you say Fuck iam screwed!
> there are no studies stating that smoking directly causes lung cancer and no one knows how cancer really starts and yet you cannot deny that smoking can cause cancer.
> and finally i showed in many other threads studies that are conclusive about some steroids causing cysts on internal organs and even causing chromosomal damage to users and offsprings and i mean conclusive studies done on animals.


 
BS! The rising rate of death of athletes has been attributed to increased concussion rates; something you haven't considered because you've got preconcieved notions about AAS. All you've read is subject matter that supports your notion.

Abuse of any drug can increase risk of death. How many athletes have we heard about who took AAS, but also abused alcohol and coke? How many athletes are there with supperior genetics where proper diet is an afterthought...Michael Phelps is well known for training on a diet of cheese burgers and twinkies (this catches up to you). How many athletes have died of natural causes, but had poor genetics (no AAS, no media attention).

While the U.S. war on durgs has made AAS research difficult, there are plenty of studies all over the world. There is no smoking gun. There is no evidence that AAS used responsibly is more dangerous than a person smoking cigars on the weekend or eating bacon and eggs once a week.

If you're doing superdrol and getting hammered every night, it's not the AAS fault you're now on dialysis...


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## lee111s (Mar 11, 2012)

Don't forget, there's a difference between use and abuse, just like anything in life!


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## bjg (Mar 11, 2012)

vancouver said:


> BS! The rising rate of death of athletes has been attributed to increased concussion rates; something you haven't considered because you've got preconcieved notions about AAS. All you've read is subject matter that supports your notion.
> 
> Abuse of any drug can increase risk of death. How many athletes have we heard about who took AAS, but also abused alcohol and coke? How many athletes are there with supperior genetics where proper diet is an afterthought...Michael Phelps is well known for training on a diet of cheese burgers and twinkies (this catches up to you). How many athletes have died of natural causes, but had poor genetics (no AAS, no media attention).
> 
> ...



of course abuse of any drug can cause health issues...of course smoking  and eating bad can cause health issue ...but do these arguments mean that steroids are ok????? if you take 20 pills of advil a day you will have health issues but does this mean that steroids are ok???? your argument in bringing in causes of death other than steroids does not negate the fact that steroids causes death. Again medical books are clear about it. and steroids used for bodybuilding ARE ALREADY IN THE ABUSE ZONE. Medical treatments with steroids as far as dosages are concerned are nowhere near what bodybuilders take when doing a cycle.


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## MuscleGauge1 (Apr 4, 2012)

there are plenty of "links"  lol


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Apr 4, 2012)

why do we need studies?

steroids are a very old medication


they have been saving lives and bettering quality of life since they were invented

im sure doctors dont envision poisoning there patients when they give them these miracle drugs


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## bjg (Apr 5, 2012)

Munzer died of abuse right? as BP200 posted...
but here is my question ..isn't the goal of every bodybuilder who goes for AAS to look like Munzer?  thus to take as many steroids as Munzer????????so don't tell me about use and abuse..anything used for bodybuilding is already an abuse..
and steroids is not a miracle drug KIllerofsaints...it is just a drug used ONLY when necessary as other medical drugs ...when the benefits outweigh the harm in extreme cases. They are not designed to be used on a healthy human being for the sake of cosmetics or performance enhancement


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## Thresh (Apr 5, 2012)

bjg said:


> Munzer died of abuse right? as BP200 posted...
> but here is my question ..isn't the goal of every bodybuilder who goes for AAS to look like Munzer?  thus to take as many steroids as Munzer????????so don't tell me about use and abuse..anything used for bodybuilding is already an abuse..
> and steroids is not a miracle drug KIllerofsaints...it is just a drug used ONLY when necessary as other medical drugs ...when the benefits outweigh the harm in extreme cases. They are not designed to be used on a healthy human being for the sake of cosmetics or performance enhancement



Benefits outweighs harm...

Guess you'll have to list the "harm" cause i have yet to see any....


5"10
195lbs

Currently cycle:
Cruising on 250mg Test Cyp/week.


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## Thresh (Apr 5, 2012)

bjg said:


> i know many will contradict me here and it is a subject that is over discussed but i would like to mention few points especially to those natural and teen bodybuilders.
> 
> point #1: If you check the number of bodybuilders and pro athletes that died at a young age  (while in perfect shape apparently) you will see a high percentage compared to normal population,  while  logically it should be the opposite since sports and bodybuilding is supposed to give you better health..then one can logically conclude that there is a common element among those pro athletes that is causing all these death
> 
> ...



I'd get your point if you could back it up with data 

Your references to cigs, you obviously have no clue how the causes of death are listed. 

Dear god please use google or something and educate yourself first. 


5"10
195lbs

Currently cycle:
Cruising on 250mg Test Cyp/week.


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## bjg (Apr 5, 2012)

Thresh said:


> google can use me to educate itself dude....
> list of harm you can google it yourself and you will discover..it is written all over ...if so far you havn't seen any then i doubt you can read or you are blind...


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## Thresh (Apr 5, 2012)

bjg said:


> Thresh said:
> 
> 
> > google can use me to educate itself dude....
> ...


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## bjg (Apr 5, 2012)

can you answer me why doctors always avoid using steroids and any hormonal and steroid based medicine and save it as the last resort?
Even stupid cortisone based cremes are avoided by doctors..
i did not fail to show you anything i just refused to do so since you can do the research yourself...
Don't you get it yet??? i do not need to prove my point to anybody ....i already proved it to myself and that is enough ...
i am a professor and i fail and pass people so please don't teach me the methods of evaluating a person...i have been a professor long enough and frankly i am ready to retire


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## HANDSOME STRANGER (Apr 5, 2012)

bjg said:


> i know many will contradict me here and it is a subject that is over discussed but i would like to mention a few points, especially to those natural and teen bodybuilders.
> 
> point #1: If you check the number of bodybuilders and pro-athletes that have died at a young age, (while in perfect shape apparently)          ( apparently they were not in perfect shape or health.) you will see a high percentage compared to the normal populations,                   ( actually the normal population of citizens die MORE OFTEN from various illnesses everyday, so very weak argument. )  while  logically (something you lack, logically mr phd) it should be the opposite. Since sports and bodybuilding is supposed to give you better health.. ( not better health but healthier life style.) Then one can logically conclude, that there is a common element among those pro athletes that is causing all these deaths.
> 
> ...




All this from a man who holds a PHD in bio mechanical engineering. And says that he has written papers. And been on NG!!!!!!!!
And NO BJG I don't get your point!!!!!!!!!  In the 80's there were a lot of guys who worked out who died. But also, they were not just using steroids. They were using other drugs. Same as today. Take everything that happens into context and don't just use one thing to help propagate your agenda. There are 1000's if not 100,000's of guys who use steroids and that do not die. The number of users that die vs the number of who do not die, is a small fraction. You have been asked many times to show your proof and you always either bypass the question. OR you completely come up with BS...  

I want you to do me a favor. Look in the mirror and ask yourself. DO I REALLY THINK ANYONE ON THIS BOARD BELIEVES A WORD I TYPE????   THEN LOOK AT YOUR BODY.  .  .  .   SHOW US SOME PICS BUDDY SHOW US WHAT A 50 + yr old man who is all natural and as strong as you say you are looks like.  AT 165lbs........  

And just so you know everything in red is where you fucked up. I know in order to get a phd you have to pass some written English classes if you went to Texas a&m.   Also work on your grammar.... Or just be honest and say actually guys I have no phd and all the shit i say is just my opinion. I have no facts to back anything up, but I believe from the bottom of my heart that this is in fact the truth...


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## bjg (Apr 5, 2012)

cross80 send me your email and i will send you a congratulation letter personally written by the chancelor of texas A&M on my first patent and this was in 1991 ..so go ahead send me your email and i challenge you to do so maybe then you will STFU and stick to the subject of this thread.
and perhaps if i feel like it i will send you my pics to you alone ..i don't want to post my pics just like that..believe me i will blow your mind.


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## Thresh (Apr 5, 2012)

bjg said:


> cross80 send me your email and i will send you a congratulation letter personally written by the chancelor of texas A&M on my first patent and this was in 1991 ..so go ahead send me your email and i challenge you to do so maybe then you will STFU and stick to the subject of this thread.
> and perhaps if i feel like it i will send you my pics to you alone ..i don't want to post my pics just like that..believe me i will blow your mind.



You can do all of that but you can't post a single study?


5"10
195lbs

Currently cycle:
Cruising on 250mg Test Cyp/week.


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## bjg (Apr 5, 2012)

or you know what ...after your last post on another thread i think you are not worth it...but my offer is open to anyone else decent enough to talk to


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## HANDSOME STRANGER (Apr 5, 2012)

bjg said:


> cross80 send me your email and i will send you a congratulation letter personally written by the chancelor of texas A&M on my first patent and this was in 1991 ..so go ahead send me your email and i challenge you to do so maybe then you will STFU and stick to the subject of this thread.
> and perhaps if i feel like it i will send you my pics to you alone ..i don't want to post my pics just like that..believe me i will blow your mind.




I think you want to blow more than my mind!!!!!!!  OK I will send you my email address!!!!!!!!!!   You have to be shitting me you think if you sent that shit to I would not post it up on IM. Come the fuck on guy. With a phd you should be smarter than that................   And you think I am going to give you my info so you can spread it around......   I know I am not the brightest crayon in the box but fuck, buddy you need to slip down the stairs and hit your head to knock all the bullshit out so you can see and think clearly.....................


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## HANDSOME STRANGER (Apr 5, 2012)

Thresh said:


> You can do all of that but you can't post a single study?
> 
> 
> 5"10
> ...




This guy is starting to smell fishy to me.......................    I love his reply to you.. And I agree he will send me his shit. But he can't help us dumb fucks out and post up all this enlightening literature he has....


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## Thresh (Apr 5, 2012)

cross80 said:


> This guy is starting to smell fishy to me.......................    I love his reply to you.. And I agree he will send me his shit. But he can't help us dumb fucks out and post up all this enlightening literature he has....










5"10
195lbs

Currently cycle:
Cruising on 250mg Test Cyp/week.


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## andyrodgers (Jul 31, 2012)

steroids can never be good for nerve system, so i don't agree with you


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## SFW (Jul 31, 2012)

^ Studies have shown that steroids can dramatically increase the rate of myelin synthesis, which can reduce the advancement of MS and other nervous system disorders. 

Negged for misinformation....and for being a dirty pakistani.


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## Faymus (Aug 1, 2012)

Please tell me where people claim cigarettes don't kill. Yes, cigarettes are linked towards death, why are you comparing the two? As a smoker, I admit smoking kills, as for steroid usage, there are many factors that come into play. Be smart. 

Your twisting words and making your own facts up. It's quite agitating to be honest.


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## KelJu (Aug 1, 2012)

andyrodgers said:


> steroids can never be good for nerve system, so i don't agree with you



It is called the nervous system you retard.


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