# Thoughts on fasted training(bcaa)



## tubbednova (Apr 3, 2011)

I've just started kickboxing in mornings for 30-40min and keep my heart rate around 80%i've been drinking around 3scoops of x-tend for this.I get up at 4:45-5:00am and start this at 6:00 and then eat breakfast around 7:30 are the bcaa's enough you think?I lift around 5:00pm.Also so i train my ab's(weighted)empty?Really don't want to lose any more muscle then i already did(overtrained)im making some nice gains now and don't want to screw that up Again!!Any help would be very grateful.


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## carmineb (Apr 3, 2011)

tubbednova said:


> I've just started kickboxing in mornings for 30-40min and keep my heart rate around 80%i've been drinking around 3scoops of x-tend for this.I get up at 4:45-5:00am and start this at 6:00 and then eat breakfast around 7:30 are the bcaa's enough you think?I lift around 5:00pm.Also so i train my ab's(weighted)empty?Really don't want to lose any more muscle then i already did(overtrained)im making some nice gains now and don't want to screw that up Again!!Any help would be very grateful.


 

i have heard it both ways dont fast and fast...  Dont fast if yoau re trying to gain muscle so the nutrients are available when teh anabolic window is there and fast if you are trying to lose weight, (fat)  but in your case it is the cardo portion you are doing in the AM, not the workout so you arent tearing anything down

I like Extend myself....    i think the rule of thumb is to not go catabolic....  so if you are taking your extended release protein at night, get up early adn take your bcaa and glutamine and keep the cardio workout an hour or less, sounds like u are doing good.  You can always just sip some bcaa's during workout in lieu of water but with extend, it is flavored and I choke on flavored stuff when I do cardio, I have to drink water only.


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## tubbednova (Apr 3, 2011)

carmineb said:


> i have heard it both ways dont fast and fast... Dont fast if yoau re trying to gain muscle so the nutrients are available when teh anabolic window is there and fast if you are trying to lose weight, (fat) but in your case it is the cardo portion you are doing in the AM, not the workout so you arent tearing anything down
> 
> I like Extend myself.... i think the rule of thumb is to not go catabolic.... so if you are taking your extended release protein at night, get up early adn take your bcaa and glutamine and keep the cardio workout an hour or less, sounds like u are doing good. You can always just sip some bcaa's during workout in lieu of water but with extend, it is flavored and I choke on flavored stuff when I do cardio, I have to drink water only.


 Does it matter that im using a heavy bag?I know about an hour or little less after waking up my gut starts growling.


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## control101 (Apr 3, 2011)

tubbednova said:


> I've just started kickboxing in mornings for 30-40min and keep my heart rate around 80%i've been drinking around 3scoops of x-tend for this.I get up at 4:45-5:00am and start this at 6:00 and then eat breakfast around 7:30 are the bcaa's enough you think?I lift around 5:00pm.Also so i train my ab's(weighted)empty?Really don't want to lose any more muscle then i already did(overtrained)im making some nice gains now and don't want to screw that up Again!!Any help would be very grateful.


I personally wouldnt even consider ever training fasted, especially if your interested in keeping the muscle you have, if your heart rate is around 80% your body probably isnt shuffling just fat for energy in a fasted state, its probably breaking down muscle too.  If you were around a 65% intensity it might shuffle a good amount of fat for energy and just a small bit of muscle in a fasted state.  Think about it, youve come off 8 hours without eating to do cardio, how is your body going to adapt? By getting rid of that excess muscle weight because its essentially starving for nutrients, sure fat will go too, but are you willing to roll the dice on that? Id say eat, something at least, with carbs, 2 bananas and ur xtend?  Ive heard both about the training fasted and not, and im definitely in the camp that training fasted is a good way to kiss some of that hard earned muscle good bye.


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## tubbednova (Apr 3, 2011)

control101 said:


> I personally wouldnt even consider ever training fasted, especially if your interested in keeping the muscle you have, if your heart rate is around 80% your body probably isnt shuffling just fat for energy in a fasted state, its probably breaking down muscle too. If you were around a 65% intensity it might shuffle a good amount of fat for energy and just a small bit of muscle in a fasted state. Think about it, youve come off 8 hours without eating to do cardio, how is your body going to adapt? By getting rid of that excess muscle weight because its essentially starving for nutrients, sure fat will go too, but are you willing to roll the dice on that? Id say eat, something at least, with carbs, 2 bananas and ur xtend? Ive heard both about the training fasted and not, and im definitely in the camp that training fasted is a good way to kiss some of that hard earned muscle good bye.


 It took all i had to get to 11.1% just hate to start climbing to far up.Might try what i use to do with coffee scoop of whey and tsb of buckwheat honey.


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## Gazhole (Apr 3, 2011)

I've trained fasted for about two months and havent seen any negative benefits so long as i pre-wo with:

BCAA
Caffeine
Dextrose
Creatine

I've been getting 4000 calories post workout throughout the rest of the day. Currently running the LeanGains intermittant fasting protocol. Good results so far.


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## control101 (Apr 3, 2011)

Gazhole said:


> I've trained fasted for about two months and havent seen any negative benefits so long as i pre-wo with:
> 
> BCAA
> Caffeine
> ...


Still getting some form of carbs in the dextrose


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## tubbednova (Apr 3, 2011)

Dextrose isn't an opp. for me it seems like when i used it before i gained a butt load of fat!i'd rather not eat any carbs pre thought about some almonds on top of the fish oil i take.I know almonds have carbs.I just already take in 350g of carbs during day.its starting to seem like the x-tend is baerly getting me though it.


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## carmineb (Apr 3, 2011)

control101 said:


> I personally wouldnt even consider ever training fasted, especially if your interested in keeping the muscle you have, if your heart rate is around 80% your body probably isnt shuffling just fat for energy in a fasted state, its probably breaking down muscle too. If you were around a 65% intensity it might shuffle a good amount of fat for energy and just a small bit of muscle in a fasted state. Think about it, youve come off 8 hours without eating to do cardio, how is your body going to adapt? By getting rid of that excess muscle weight because its essentially starving for nutrients, sure fat will go too, but are you willing to roll the dice on that? Id say eat, something at least, with carbs, 2 bananas and ur xtend? Ive heard both about the training fasted and not, and im definitely in the camp that training fasted is a good way to kiss some of that hard earned muscle good bye.


 


good point about the anearobic activity, high intensity cardo....  

if he has a slow release protein at night, his body isnt in starvation mode if it is in positive nitrogen balance from the protein,  and I think BCAA's arent going to do anything different than straight protein as far as cortisol release control, they might be more efficient.. 

Not sure but I think cortisol is released when l-luceine and glutamine are scarse, (in their absense)  ....  like I have said I sort of remember studies that basically take either side.

I think I remember MAtt Porter sayuing he was doing some fasted portions in his getting contest ready, maybe it is for shock  and not daily, not sure.


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## damage (Apr 3, 2011)

Gazhole said:


> I've trained fasted for about two months and havent seen any negative benefits so long as i pre-wo with:
> 
> BCAA
> Caffeine
> ...


 
That isn't fasted.

The consensus is, except you are doing LISS, fasted training is not optimal and is potentially detrimental to muscle gain. So BCAA's are used to provide energy for the workout and post workout period without technically breaking the fast.

Dont train fasted, Its pointless.


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## tubbednova (Apr 3, 2011)

carmineb said:


> good point about the anearobic activity, high intensity cardo....
> 
> if he has a slow release protein at night, his body isnt in starvation mode if it is in positive nitrogen balance from the protein, and I think BCAA's arent going to do anything different than straight protein as far as cortisol release control, they might be more efficient..
> 
> ...


My last meal is 1/2c cottage cheese with a 1/4c walnuts.Are saying the x-tend is not saving muscle?


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## carmineb (Apr 3, 2011)

tubbednova said:


> My last meal is 1/2c cottage cheese with a 1/4c walnuts.Are saying the x-tend is not saving muscle?


 
i am saying they assist in sparing the muscles....  (and like stated elsewhere, used as energy in lieu of muscle itself)

I am not versed on actual nutritional foods but i can see how walnuts, having good fats and cottage cheese would do teh same thing sa a good slow release store bought powder but I dont know but it feels right

I would also supplement glutamine at night, been told it assists in GH release too ir is required for a better release.


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## control101 (Apr 4, 2011)

Bottom line tubbed, dont train fasted, get some real food in your system (aka not just a drink), your only going to make your body want to hold onto calories more by demanding energy from it when it has none to spare (in the form of glucose) because your glucose levels drop dramatically through the night, so it'll want to 'save' the calories you intake on the next meal in the form of adipose tissue (fat) because it realizes its going to need it if you keep up the fasted workout.  Eat something, save your muscles and your metabolism.


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## tubbednova (Apr 4, 2011)

control101 said:


> Bottom line tubbed, dont train fasted, get some real food in your system (aka not just a drink), your only going to make your body want to hold onto calories more by demanding energy from it when it has none to spare (in the form of glucose) because your glucose levels drop dramatically through the night, so it'll want to 'save' the calories you intake on the next meal in the form of adipose tissue (fat) because it realizes its going to need it if you keep up the fasted workout. Eat something, save your muscles and your metabolism.


 Yeah,im coming to the conclusion that i need to get some food in me.Took all i had this morn to go 35min.As before bed i take zma hour before last meal with gaba and 5-htp.But i though som glut in the mix.I also do 1 1/2scoop casien and p/b on weekends(like whole food better)plus i have to pee 3x during night with a shake.


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## buff1 (Apr 4, 2011)

tubbednova said:


> Yeah,im coming to the conclusion that i need to get some food in me.Took all i had this morn to go 35min.As before bed i take zma hour before last meal with gaba and 5-htp.But i though som glut in the mix.I also do 1 1/2scoop casien and p/b on weekends(like whole food better)plus i have to pee 3x during night with a shake.



if your doing the heavybag for cardio drink your bcaa's and do it fasted for fat loss.  If your trying to gain muscle from it then you need to eat.  I would at least eat right afterwards either way.


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## tubbednova (Apr 4, 2011)

buff1 said:


> if your doing the heavybag for cardio drink your bcaa's and do it fasted for fat loss. If your trying to gain muscle from it then you need to eat. I would at least eat right afterwards either way.


Im trying to build endurance from it mostly.I hit the gym around 5pm to build muscle also i always have a rough one on mondays i don't take in alot of carbs and cals on sunday around 100g and 2300cal and no carbs after lunch usally.Like wed.my endurance is better but i go all out for 2 1/2 3min a round and rest 30-45sec its the only way i get my heart rate 80%+. 90%and im starting to keel over.Just don't want to feel like a big pile afterwards!I eat about 45min later but im awake for 2 1/2 without anything and im hungry about 45min after im up stomach growls so its not in my head.I do warm up and cool down to which really doesn't make a diff but i still do it.


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## tubbednova (Apr 4, 2011)

control101 said:


> Bottom line tubbed, dont train fasted, get some real food in your system (aka not just a drink), your only going to make your body want to hold onto calories more by demanding energy from it when it has none to spare (in the form of glucose) because your glucose levels drop dramatically through the night, so it'll want to 'save' the calories you intake on the next meal in the form of adipose tissue (fat) because it realizes its going to need it if you keep up the fasted workout. Eat something, save your muscles and your metabolism.


 That makes sense to me.would you recommend around 100-200cal from carbs and stay with the x-tend or whey and carbs?or some p/b i figure i burn around 400+staying above 157bpm(81%is my average with the occ.85-90when it comes back and hits me in the melon!)


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