# Lifting while sore?



## Vale Tudo (Oct 12, 2002)

If I am sore at all in a certain body part, say my Tris for example, and my tri day comes up and I am still a little sore should I train them or give them another day to rest.  I never know which i should do, i dont want to overtrain them, but sometime parts are still sore when their training day comes up.  Which would be the most benificial for stregnth and size gains?  To wait or train?
Thanks


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## Scotty the Body (Oct 12, 2002)

I would let them rest. 
A little light work would be ok to get blood running through them, it can help them to recover but you should let them heal back up before breaking them down again.


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## Fade (Oct 12, 2002)

Yeah if you feel the need to hit them do it light light light.


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## gopro (Oct 12, 2002)

You should not still be sore in a bodypart when its time to train it again. There may be something wrong with your training split or your ability to recover properly. What is your program right now?


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## Fade (Oct 12, 2002)

Oooo good question.

You must now answer to Master Trainer Gopro!


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## Scotty the Body (Oct 12, 2002)

Yeah, what Gopro said!!! I fugured you must be training them more than once a week if they're still sore by the next workout.


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## twelvepercentt (Oct 12, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> You should not still be sore in a bodypart when its time to train it again.



But don't you think a _little _ bit of soreness is okay?  I mean, I always a little bit sore, but not like the _OMG sore_ 2-4 days after leg day


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## Robboe (Oct 12, 2002)

Depends on the methods of training you employed for your last session and the methods you plan to employ for the pending session (i.e. relating to failure training).


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## Josh (Oct 12, 2002)

I believe if you're training HST style then there is a chance that a body part is still (a bit) sore when the time to work on it again comes.

- Josh


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## Vale Tudo (Oct 13, 2002)

Well I am using this split. 
Mon: Chest/delts/calves
T: Back/Abs
Wff(maybe abs, and light cardio)
Th: Quads/Hams/calves
Fri: Bis/Tris/Abs
Sff
Sff
My problem is that My tris are sometimes a little sore when my Chest day comes around.  and since I am using them to some extent, I was just wondering if it is okay or not. 
Any suggestions would be great.


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## twelvepercentt (Oct 13, 2002)

Maybe you could try working your chest and back together, and do your first calves session  on your cardio day.


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## gopro (Oct 13, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Vale Tudo *_
> Well I am using this split.
> Mon: Chest/delts/calves
> T: Back/Abs
> ...



If you want to stick to this type of program you may wish to switch Back to mon and Chest to tues. The biceps recover more quickly than the triceps.


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## miamiguns (Oct 13, 2002)

Is it alright to train cardio while my legs are sore from my leg workouts?


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## LAM (Oct 13, 2002)

active recovery principles can be used when lifting sore.  but you MUST use less weight (like around 60-70%) than the previous training session for that body part.


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## twelvepercentt (Oct 13, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by miamiguns *_
> Is it alright to train cardio while my legs are sore from my leg workouts?



You know your legs will be less sore after cardio because they will be warmed up!  And after cardio is a perfect time to stretch those sore muscles!


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## twelvepercentt (Oct 13, 2002)

Oh, and I would never do any cardio if I waited until my legs weren't sore!


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## miamiguns (Oct 13, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by twelvepercentt *_
> Oh, and I would never do any cardio if I waited until my legs weren't sore!



Thanks 12%, 

I usually do cardio when I'm still sore but I wanted to make sure.

I've been getting injured alot lately, first my right shoulder and then my upper hamstring.  As I approach the big 40  I've been prone to injury .

The fast and furious days are over for me.


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## gopro (Oct 14, 2002)

Cardio while sore is ok if it is not very high intensity cardio. Light biking or treadmill walking for example, will help your legs to recover, but high incline treadmill walking or sprints would hinder recovery. We all need to find a balance based on our goals.


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## Vale Tudo (Oct 14, 2002)

Thanks for all of the help guys.


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 16, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Cardio while sore is ok if it is not very high intensity cardio. Light biking or treadmill walking for example, will help your legs to recover, but high incline treadmill walking or sprints would hinder recovery. We all need to find a balance based on our goals.




I find the higher the intensity the faster I recover, especially in regards to legs, work the hell out of my legs and two days later when maximum soreness has kicked In Im on the tread or stat. bike after 10-15 mins of sheer agony i can up the intensity for the last half hour, could it also be said that we need to find a balance based on muscle group recovery according to the specific individual?


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## gopro (Oct 16, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by BjUaFyF *_
> 
> 
> 
> I find the higher the intensity the faster I recover, especially in regards to legs, work the hell out of my legs and two days later when maximum soreness has kicked In Im on the tread or stat. bike after 10-15 mins of sheer agony i can up the intensity for the last half hour, could it also be said that we need to find a balance based on muscle group recovery according to the specific individual?



While that type of activity can help alleviate soreness it does HINDER the recovery that is necessary for muscular growth to take place.


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 16, 2002)

i guess im the exception


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## gopro (Oct 17, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by BjUaFyF *_
> i guess im the exception



Hey, there are exceptions to EVERY rule


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 17, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> 
> 
> Hey, there are exceptions to EVERY rule




lol, yes this is true, I dunno it's more of a feeling than anything I could very well be hindering some recovery, but I have always found my legs to be my strongest, fastest recovering, easieast to gain on and shred muscle group, but like I say, for me it's just that feeling of driving the soreness away...........


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## gopro (Oct 18, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by BjUaFyF *_
> 
> 
> 
> lol, yes this is true, I dunno it's more of a feeling than anything I could very well be hindering some recovery, but I have always found my legs to be my strongest, fastest recovering, easieast to gain on and shred muscle group, but like I say, for me it's just that feeling of driving the soreness away...........



If your legs are a genetically superior bodypart than the "rules" of recovery may not apply to you for this particular area. The only thing I can say is that your legs MAY be even better if you let them recover more, but the only way you'd know is to see for yourself. Either way...bless you for having such good recovery ability in your legs!


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 19, 2002)

and believe me when I say thats the only group in which I have good recovery, I think I'll leave em alone for awhile and see what happens ?? can't really say to much until I have compared


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## gopro (Oct 19, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by BjUaFyF *_
> and believe me when I say thats the only group in which I have good recovery, I think I'll leave em alone for awhile and see what happens ?? can't really say to much until I have compared



I'll be interested to see what conclusion you come to! Keep me posted!


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 19, 2002)

NP gopro, legs tommorow


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## gopro (Oct 20, 2002)

Figures!


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## Snake_Eyes (Oct 20, 2002)

Anaerobic work such as sprints or even weight training with moderate weights and short rest intervals will not hinder recovery and may in fact improve it, as Bj is seeing.

It utilizes lactate metabolism yes (which is a good thing), but does not effect the structure of the muscle fiber itself (which is also a good thing).

There's no reason that form of work done without over-taxing the muscle group would hinder recovery. Bj isn't the only one that's noticed that effect.


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## gopro (Oct 20, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> Anaerobic work such as sprints or even weight training with moderate weights and short rest intervals will not hinder recovery and may in fact improve it, as Bj is seeing.
> 
> It utilizes lactate metabolism yes (which is a good thing), but does not effect the structure of the muscle fiber itself (which is also a good thing).
> ...



Disagree totally and comepletely! Nothing new though.


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## Snake_Eyes (Oct 20, 2002)

No offense but I'm currently training an individual using a method designed to emphasize lactate metabolism (5-7 sets, 30-60 second rest intervals) and he's noting better recovery. 

I've trained others in the past with similar methods as well as sprints and noticed similar results.


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## Robboe (Oct 20, 2002)

Are you a PT, Snake?


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## Snake_Eyes (Oct 20, 2002)

Depends on how you define PT. I suppose so.


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## Robboe (Oct 20, 2002)

Do you have any certs?


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 20, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Figures!




no sheet figures lmao


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## gopro (Oct 21, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> No offense but I'm currently training an individual using a method designed to emphasize lactate metabolism (5-7 sets, 30-60 second rest intervals) and he's noting better recovery.
> 
> I've trained others in the past with similar methods as well as sprints and noticed similar results.




You and I may be talking about 2 different things.


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## Arnold (Oct 21, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Do you have any certs?



I would figure you to be a person that thinks very little of certifications.


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## Robboe (Oct 21, 2002)

Oh, I have no clue what each cert does or means. Literally no clue. 



I was just making small talk...I think


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## Snake_Eyes (Oct 21, 2002)

Gopro: To what were you referring then? I was referring to low/moderate-intensity weights (65% 1RM or less), high set volume (5-8 sets) and short rest intervals (30-90 seconds), designed to maximize anaerobic work output without stressing the muscle itself. I consider this method of "interval weight training" to be the same category of work as sprinting, just fyi, with near-equivalent effects on both recovery and fat loss.

Chicken_Daddy: I have some qualifications on paper, yes. But I don't normally mention them because I don't think paper qualifications are an entirely accurate means of judging someone's capability.

I prefer to let my knowledge and results speak for themselves.


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 21, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Do you have any certs?




why you have bad breath??


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## Robboe (Oct 21, 2002)

I'm reporting that post to a moderator...


























....Purely because i don't get it.


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## Arnold (Oct 21, 2002)

certs are breath mints.

http://www.certs.com/


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## Robboe (Oct 21, 2002)

Well alrighty then.

Can i still report his post?

Verbal abuse. 

I'm hurting right now.


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 21, 2002)

LMAO, I didn't realize it would cut so deep.........


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## Tank316 (Oct 21, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Well alrighty then.
> 
> Can i still report his post?
> ...


TCD, do ya need a shoulder there bud.


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 21, 2002)

LMAO


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## Robboe (Oct 22, 2002)

You guys should feel irresponsible.

I have a noose here and ready.


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## gopro (Oct 22, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> Gopro: To what were you referring then? I was referring to low/moderate-intensity weights (65% 1RM or less), high set volume (5-8 sets) and short rest intervals (30-90 seconds), designed to maximize anaerobic work output without stressing the muscle itself. I consider this method of "interval weight training" to be the same category of work as sprinting, just fyi, with near-equivalent effects on both recovery and fat loss.



I was referring to the fact that after one performs a heavy leg workout, the next day should be followed with rest for the legs, not high intensity cardio involving the legs. This would seriously cut into recovery for the legs. In fact, when a natural BBer is training to add mass, I recommend little to ZERO cardio, as recovery ability is quite limited in most, save for genetic freaks, and making further inroads into both local and systemic recovery will hinder overall progress.

The ONLY time I do cardio is about 12 weeks form a show.


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## Snake_Eyes (Oct 22, 2002)

As I was saying, provided the working volume is kept within a reasonable range, this work will *enhance* the recovery process, not detract from it. Enhancing anaerobic metabolics and NOT stressing the muscle itself (key point here) will only work to improve the processes occurring.

This is obviously going be a function of diet as well, however while gaining weight the individual should be taking in more than enough calories.


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## gopro (Oct 22, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> As I was saying, provided the working volume is kept within a reasonable range, this work will *enhance* the recovery process, not detract from it. Enhancing anaerobic metabolics and NOT stressing the muscle itself (key point here) will only work to improve the processes occurring.
> 
> This is obviously going be a function of diet as well, however while gaining weight the individual should be taking in more than enough calories.



So you don't think that pedaling hard on a stationary bike, walking uphill on a treadmill, or sweating away on a stairmaster will stress your thigh muscles??


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## Snake_Eyes (Oct 22, 2002)

If its done in an interval fashion and for a brief period of time, then no it will not stress the thigh muscles in a fashion that will hinder recovery.


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 22, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> You guys should feel irresponsible.
> 
> I have a noose here and ready.




Well tank offered his help I feel I should do the same......did ya want me to give the stool a good kick when yer ready????









LMAO j/k


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## Robboe (Oct 22, 2002)

Thanks for the consideration, but chances are, should that situation actually arise, you'd have to fight for that priviledge.


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## Trap-isaurus (Oct 22, 2002)

lol......ill wait in line


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## gopro (Oct 22, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> If its done in an interval fashion and for a brief period of time, then no it will not stress the thigh muscles in a fashion that will hinder recovery.



Could not disagree more! Recovery ability is very limited and cardio of any sort is going to cut into systemic recovery regardless. Without systemic recovery you will get nowhere. You can dispute it all you want, but I feel you are dead wrong. If we are talking about natural trainees with normal lives you have to be very careful about overtraining not only your muscles but your nervous system.

I have gained 135 lbs naturally...I think I'll stick to my methods. If yours work for you...God Bless you...


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## Snake_Eyes (Oct 22, 2002)

_*Originally posted by gopro *_
*Could not disagree more! Recovery ability is very limited and cardio of any sort is going to cut into systemic recovery regardless.*

I repeat once again. This type of training does not require "recovery." To imply that it does implies that you do not understand what is occurring.

This is simply usage of the glycolytic pathway. There is no "damage" to recover from. Yes more calories are expended but this can be taken care of with diet.

*If we are talking about natural trainees with normal lives you have to be very careful about overtraining not only your muscles but your nervous system.*

The nervous system isn't involved enough in submaximal training to cause it any form of stress. Certainly not the type you're trying to suggest. 

If you were taking the sets to failure or using maximal weights it would be one thing. But weights at 65% of your max not even remotely to failure won't have any effect.

*I have gained 135 lbs naturally...I think I'll stick to my methods. If yours work for you...God Bless you...*

Congratulations. However I have multiple people under my guidance who have used this method and still use this method, in concert with others, to great success.

Does the fact that you gained 135 lbs detract from these very real and very measurable results?


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## Training God (Oct 22, 2002)

Go Pro, we know what your accomplishments are.
We don't need a constant reminder.


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## gopro (Oct 22, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> *Could not disagree more! Recovery ability is very limited and cardio of any sort is going to cut into systemic recovery regardless.*
> 
> ...




Let me explain myself. If you were to train 4 days per week very intensely...meaning, training to failure with multiple sets using heavy weights, yada, yada, yada (a good solid BBing program)...you will be doing yourself a disservice in terms of hypertrophy if you engage in light, medium, intense, interval or any other type of training in your off days. Days off from the gym, unless entering a competition, should be spend resting and NOTHING else!


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## gopro (Oct 22, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by PowermanDL *_
> Go Pro, we know what your accomplishments are.
> We don't need a constant reminder.




No you see you have forgotten where you are PDL...this is Ironmag, where people are friendly and don't mind me talking about accomplishments...this is not WBB where, well you know...


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## Snake_Eyes (Oct 22, 2002)

I do have scientific evidence beyond the anecdotal evidence of those under my guidance which I could provide to back my position.

However, I do feel that it would fall upon deaf ears if I presented it as an argument since you already seem incapable of accepting that what I'm saying not only can work and has worked, but continues to work.

All I can do is present the information if requested and hope that people here are better at critical thinking than you are.

Though I am interested in knowing how using restorative techniques will "hinder" any positive effect of training.


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## gopro (Oct 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> I do have scientific evidence beyond the anecdotal evidence of those under my guidance which I could provide to back my position.
> 
> However, I do feel that it would fall upon deaf ears if I presented it as an argument since you already seem incapable of accepting that what I'm saying not only can work and has worked, but continues to work.
> ...



Yeah, restorative techniques like massage maybe, but extra work when a body needs rest in order to recover from the incredible demands made on it from lifting weights. Sorry, don't buy it.

Go ahead and present you scientific evidence to make your point. Maybe someone on here will buy it. Just not me.


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## Training God (Oct 23, 2002)

I think the point being made Go Pro, is regardless of whether you agree or not it works. It's worked for him and his clients.  So trying to argue that it doesn't is pointless.


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## gopro (Oct 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by PowermanDL *_
> I think the point being made Go Pro, is regardless of whether you agree or not it works. It's worked for him and his clients.  So trying to argue that it doesn't is pointless.



I told him in a previous post that if his plan works for him than God Bless! In essence saying just what you said. 

In my opinion, however, based on MY research and my 16 years of training myself and 12 years of training clients from seniors to competitive athletes (and I've tried every which way), that his methodology while interesting, is not the most productive...not at least for the majority of people out there.


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## Training God (Oct 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> 
> In my opinion, however, based on MY research and my 16 years of training myself and 12 years of training clients from seniors to competitive athletes (and I've tried every which way), that his methodology while interesting, is not the most productive...not at least for the majority of people out there.



*** Who's to say what is or what isn't the most productive method for the exercising population?

Your research, clients and experience do not make up the majority, only a minority. That being said you are only speaking for what has worked for you, not what works and what doesn't for everyone out there.

If it works for him but goes against what you have found through experience, this shows that you have not tried every which way. Otherwise it would have worked for you.


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## gopro (Oct 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by PowermanDL *_
> 
> 
> *** Who's to say what is or what isn't the most productive method for the exercising population?
> ...



Maki...you don't seem to understand something. Every "expert" in the field of exercise (or any field for that matter) does what he or she thinks is BEST. Each of us believe we are using the techniques that are the MOST productive available. Charles Poliquin thinks his are best...Mike Mentzer thought his were best...Ian King thinks his are best...Louis Simmons thinks his are best...I think mine are best.

Now of course we all revise things as we go along as we see fit...but it is based on OUR research and our experiences. Now, if the "expert" is smart, he or she will be willing to try others' methods to see how they work...to see if they might be incorporated into their own theories. A really great "expert" will truly experiment with EVERTHING out there to have a complete knowledge of all techniques and protocols.

Well, this is exactly how I handle myself in the world of fitness training. Talking about Snake specifically...I have tried protocols similar to his and I have discarded it as I feel it is less than optimal. I have done that with many others ideas as well. Snake can do that with mine if he likes as can you.

My point is I feel I am one of the best at what I do and therefore I will express my opinions as being the best out there. This is how I operate and this has helped make me successful. Its not conceit, its confidence based on years and years of passion for fitness training.

Love me or hate me, thats how it is.


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## Training God (Oct 23, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> 
> 
> Maki...you don't seem to understand something. Every "expert" in the field of exercise (or any field for that matter) does what he or she thinks is BEST. Each of us believe we are using the techniques that are the MOST productive available. Charles Poliquin thinks his are best...Mike Mentzer thought his were best...Ian King thinks his are best...Louis Simmons thinks his are best...I think mine are best.
> ...


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## gopro (Oct 24, 2002)

Oh Maki...you have far too much time on your hands. Just drop it. I don't have time for your nonsense.


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## Scotty the Body (Oct 24, 2002)

So what do you think of Snakes theory on it Powerman? 

Do you think its the better (I didn't say best  ) thing to do to aid recovery or would rest be the better option?


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## Snake_Eyes (Oct 24, 2002)

Just to clarify, to avoid any possible misunderstanding: That protocol is only one of many I use and have used to facilitate restoration.

Much like every method used in strength training, there is a time and a place for it. The specific protocol I outlined is one designed to A) help the lifter manage or reduce body fat without a drastic reduction in calories while developing strength, when reducing calories could affect performance, B) facilitate recovery after intensive training, and C) increase the anaerobic work capacity of the body, both as a whole and in terms of individual muscle groups. As such, there are specific times and durations for which this method should be employed, as with ANY regimen.

Again, to make the blanket statement that this method is wholly and entirely ineffectual is closed-minded and short-sighted. It's all about context.

I'm going to avoid commenting on your comparisons of your results being somehow "better" than mine. That argument, used as it is without any objective backing, is grasping at straws, and the last resort of the man with no tangible case.


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## gopro (Oct 24, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> Just to clarify, to avoid any possible misunderstanding: That protocol is only one of many I use and have used to facilitate restoration.
> 
> Much like every method used in strength training, there is a time and a place for it. The specific protocol I outlined is one designed to A) help the lifter manage or reduce body fat without a drastic reduction in calories while developing strength, when reducing calories could affect performance, B) facilitate recovery after intensive training, and C) increase the anaerobic work capacity of the body, both as a whole and in terms of individual muscle groups. As such, there are specific times and durations for which this method should be employed, as with ANY regimen.
> ...



I said it before and I'll say it again...if your methods work for you and those you train, than God Bless...more power to you...don't fix it if it ain't broke...yada, yada, yada...

However, trust me. I've explored the methodology you speak of...decided there are better ways...discarded it from my arsenal...moved on to bigger and better things.

End of story. End of argument. End of the line.


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## Snake_Eyes (Oct 24, 2002)

Some how I highly doubt your arrogance is truly justified by your results. Nor do I believe that your methodology has been as comprehensive as you claim.

However that is not the point of this thread. If you cannot offer more than vague anecdotal reports to detract from what I'm stating, then please refrain from discouraging others in pursuing its use.

Thank you.


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## gopro (Oct 24, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> Some how I highly doubt your arrogance is truly justified by your results. Nor do I believe that your methodology has been as comprehensive as you claim.
> 
> However that is not the point of this thread. If you cannot offer more than vague anecdotal reports to detract from what I'm stating, then please refrain from discouraging others in pursuing its use.
> ...




Believe whatever you wish...oh, and I'll discourage or encourage others exactly as I see fit.

Your welcome


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