# To Juice or not to Juice...



## live2pump (Mar 18, 2005)

I'm not knocking anyone who decides to take steroids, but there has to be a thought process to decide if you're going to take the plunge.  Has anyone here gone over the pros vs. cons or is it something you just start doing?  

I won't lie, in my younger days I actually thought about it, but my conscience wouldn't let me and I'm glad I didn't.


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## Cardinal (Mar 18, 2005)

Biggest hurdle for me to overcome was the legal aspect.  This is the only con that I ever seriously considered, the potential to ruin my career specifically.  It is also what will limit my future use.  Otherwise, I see them as a very viable, effective and efficient means of achieving a number of goals I have set for myself.

I don't view it as unethical or cheating in any regard.  I definitely did not choose this path to skip out on a lot of hard work in the gym.  Those that do, very quickly find out they couldn't have been more wrong. 

I see no reason to list all the positives I see in it.  The list would be quite long in the making

Had it not been for my beloved prohormones, the legal implication surrounding steroid use might have kept me from taking the plunge.  Since then, however, I grew a pair and realized I only have one life to live and will exert more control over the quality of my life than our beloved government would normally allow.


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## musclepump (Mar 18, 2005)

I think when taken correctly, the only effects of steroids are bigger muscles. I honestly don't think it's going to take any years off my life, change my relationships with people, alter my ability to bear children, none of that.

To me, since I'm not competing in any sport where steroids are tested for, I'm fine with them. If I were in baseball or wrestling (Olympic competition), boxing or whatever, then I wouldn't even consider using.


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## LAM (Mar 18, 2005)

I've been around steroids for about 20 years and did about 6 years of research on them and the endocrine system before I started.  I've been using low dose cycles for about 2 years and have no regrets.


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## Pirate! (Mar 18, 2005)

live2pump said:
			
		

> Has anyone here gone over the pros vs. cons or is it something you just start doing?


Using steroids without going over the pros and cons would be stupid. Using steroids isn't nearly as dangerous as driving, but we find that the pros outweigh the cons, so we drive. All resposible decision making requires thoughful consideration when health, safety, and well-being are involved.

I decided to it is worth it to me, and I'm glad I did.


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## crazy_enough (Mar 18, 2005)

What they all said!!

I dont see steroid use an easy way out or a cheat(as long as ure not competing in an event that prohibits such use). Muscle doesnt appear miraculously on gear, it simply provides the athlete with an edge, to train harder and grow.


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## Mudge (Mar 18, 2005)

When I was younger I didn't know much about them so I figured what everyone said was probably true, so I wasn't open to the idea.

Gear has made me realize even more how important diet is.


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## live2pump (Mar 18, 2005)

Thanks for all the respectful responses.  I say that because I've seen many times on this board people who get bent out of shape because a non-gear person has a different position.

One last thing I wanted to mention in my first post is this.  Knowing that you will never get the same size and gains when off the gear, is that a deterent to stop?


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## gococksDJS (Mar 18, 2005)

live2pump said:
			
		

> One last thing I wanted to mention in my first post is this. Knowing that you will never get the same size and gains when off the gear, is that a deterent to stop?


 It's not that you will never get the size and gains off gear, it's that you will not gain at that speed off gear. It is still possible to continue to gain while off gear, but your not going to put on 20lbs of lbm in 3 months. It is a common misconception that your gains while on a steroid cycle are not real and that you lose them when you come off. It's not like that little vial of oil does the lifting for you, they increase constructive metabolism, but it's still the person that determines the gains. Many different things determine gains while on, the biggest is diet. If you use gear, but eat a measly 1000 cals a day, that is a very big waste and dangerous. Before I started using, I thought all you had to do was stick a needle in your ass, but people who aren't familiar with anabolics do not realize what it really takes to achieve those gains, and in my personal experience, you can't explain it to them unless they are unbiased about steroid use. If someone doesn't agree with what your doing, no matter what you say, they will still write it off as cheating because they think all you do is shoot yourself up, watch your penis fall off, get huge, get roid rage, and die 2 years later from heart failure.


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## LAM (Mar 18, 2005)

live2pump said:
			
		

> One last thing I wanted to mention in my first post is this.  Knowing that you will never get the same size and gains when off the gear, is that a deterent to stop?



I started using gear because I know I hit my maximum genetic potential. that's all it took for me to finally decide to use gear.


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## musclepump (Mar 18, 2005)

and now LAM is one biiiigggg mofo. you should post some updated pics brah


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## LAM (Mar 18, 2005)

I will post new ones when I get back down to 7-8%


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## Tha Don (Mar 18, 2005)

LAM said:
			
		

> I will post new ones when I get back down to 7-8%



what is it at the moment?


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## LAM (Mar 18, 2005)

too much 11-12%.  be eating like shit lately


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## SlimShady (Mar 18, 2005)

The way I see it, gear can accomplish two things -

 1. It can greatly decrease the time involved to make gains up to one's genetic potential. Say it would take someone a year to add 20lbs naturally. With gear they may be able to add that same 20 lbs in 60 days.  Gear is a great shortcut for the intermediate bber. 

 2. It is one way a person can surpass maximum genetic potential. Quite possibly the only way. Your genetic capacity to gain muscle slowly decreases as you age. The same person does not have the ability to gain muscle at age 50 that he/she did at age 18. Gear can change that. Gear is sometimes the only way for an advanced bber or an older bber to make gains. 

 With or without gear, you still gotta lift.


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## live2pump (Mar 21, 2005)

LAM, when you do post new pics make sure they're not dark bro!


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## westb51 (Mar 22, 2005)




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## gococksDJS (Mar 22, 2005)

LAM you kind of look like Barry Bonds in those photos...


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## Leon77 (Mar 23, 2005)

I would like to clear up any confusion you may have about anabolic steroids. Every serious bodybuilder should know the truth about steroids. It is my opinion that you can gain all the weight and gains you want without them. steroids are a radical departure from physical culture. Far to much emphasis is placed on their value for a improved physique. I think the usefulness of steroids is overrated and needless to say, overdone. Superstars of the past such as reg park, john grimek, steeve reeves, clancy ross, jack delinger, and bill pearl reached the ultimate in massive muscularity, so can you with the right diet, training system and correct supplementation"

Arnold schwarzenegger-Ironman encyclopeda 1999


Hey,
All you amateur pharmisists/MD's steroid experts.Point to 1 guy in his 50/60"s who was a steroid user who is alive and healthy. Don't tell me schwartzenegger. he made his own admissions about the negative effects.
Did you ever see the special that was done on E german and russian athletes and steroid use?most were weight lifters and sprinters. The injections were forced upon them by doctors who told them the sh*t was harmless.Today they are totally fu*ked up mental cases.
I am aware of clinically administered steroids given to individuals with growth problems and their use to fight certain illnesses But for the most part what i see in the world of athletics are Illegally obtained,black market steroids administered by a bunch of Quacks.Look at Giambi and the health problems he had last year and the slump he was in.
Barry Bonds is now experiencing health problems. Remember Lyle Alzedo? He's fu*kin dead. Stick your "taken in moderation" in your ass.What are you guys fu*kin doctors now? 
I cant help but think it just represents a cheap, lazy, reckless way to cut corners to get ahead temporarily. Their endorsement sends the wrong message to the young and impressionable athletes striving for success.


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## musclepump (Mar 23, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> Hey,
> All you amateur pharmisists/MD's steroid experts.Point to 1 guy in his 50/60"s who was a steroid user who is alive and healthy. Don't tell me schwartzenegger. he made his own admissions about the negative effects.
> Did you ever see the special that was done on E german and russian athletes and steroid use?most were weight lifters and sprinters. The injections were forced upon them by doctors who told them the sh*t was harmless.Today they are totally fu*ked up mental cases.
> I am aware of clinically administered steroids given to individuals with growth problems and their use to fight certain illnesses But for the most part what i see in the world of athletics are Illegally obtained,black market steroids administered by a bunch of Quacks.Look at Giambi and the health problems he had last year and the slump he was in.
> ...


                

                
        
       
       
Oh man that was good!


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## LAM (Mar 23, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> Hey,
> All you amateur pharmisists/MD's steroid experts.Point to 1 guy in his 50/60"s who was a steroid user who is alive and healthy.
> 
> Remember Lyle Alzedo? He's fu*kin dead.



I know 1 guy. my father ! lol and he's perfectly healthy.

Lyle Alzedo died of brain cancer. If you actually did any research on steroids you would know that they do not cause cell proliferation.  next question please

I'ts quite obvious that you along with 99.9% of the public haven't done any or your own research on the subject.  way to jump on the bandwagon


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## musclepump (Mar 23, 2005)

Fucking putz!


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## LAM (Mar 23, 2005)

LAM said:
			
		

> If you actually did any research on steroids you would know that they do not cause cell proliferation



actually let me rephrase that.  some steroids (namely androgens) may increase cancer cell formation from a pre-existing condition.  but there is also a lot more to it than that.


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## vegman (Mar 23, 2005)

I work with a guy that's 52 and he used gear for 3 years. he is perfecly healthy


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## musclepump (Mar 23, 2005)

And he references that Reg Parks "didn't" use steroids...   Ok buddy, we'll let you tell it


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## Tha Don (Mar 24, 2005)

musclepump said:
			
		

> Oh man that was good!



exactly what i was about to say


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## Tha Don (Mar 24, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> Barry Bonds is now experiencing health problems. Remember Lyle Alzedo? He's fu*kin dead. Stick your "taken in moderation" in your ass.What are you guys fu*kin doctors now?
> I cant help but think it just represents a cheap, lazy, reckless way to cut corners to get ahead temporarily. Their endorsement sends the wrong message to the young and impressionable athletes striving for success.



you don't have a fucking clue what your taking about! you stupid cocksucking twat!

if you really think roids are all that bad fuck off n' forget about them and keep your uneducated opinion to yourself! mind you that was pretty damm funny, so thanks for the laugh, now you can fuck off back to wherever it is you came from!


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## SlimShady (Mar 24, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> Hey,
> All you amateur pharmisists/MD's steroid experts.Point to 1 guy in his 50/60"s who was a steroid user who is alive and healthy. Don't tell me schwartzenegger. he made his own admissions about the negative effects.


 Don't tell you Schwartzenagger? Why not? You asked for 1 guy who used, so why does Arnold not count? He used a ton a steriods and he is alive and doing fine. Do you really think that Lyle Alzado is the only pro football player who used gear? Heh, try again... just about all the players in the NFL use gear, especially the ones from Alzado's era. How come they all aren't dead or fucked up? One guy has a prob and you want to point at steroids? Plus, you don't know what else these people were using. There are literally a TON of performance enhancing drugs out there. Pro athletes are constantly looking for an edge, so there is no telling what else these guys took before game time. Even back in the day, they used to take handfuls of black beautys to get hyped up for a game - and that was 35 years ago, so no telling what they are taking now. 

 Get off the soapbox, because you got no idea what's involved in sports 'medicine'.


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## gococksDJS (Mar 24, 2005)

SlimShady said:
			
		

> Do you really think that Lyle Alzado is the only pro football player who used gear? Heh, try again... just about all the players in the NFL use gear, especially the ones from Alzado's era. How come they all aren't dead or fucked up? One guy has a prob and you want to point at steroids? Plus, you don't know what else these people were using.


 9 Carolina Panthers were indicted for suspected steroid use last week..


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## Leon77 (Mar 24, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> you don't have a fucking clue what your taking about! you stupid cocksucking twat!
> 
> if you really think roids are all that bad fuck off n' forget about them and keep your uneducated opinion to yourself! mind you that was pretty damm funny, so thanks for the laugh, now you can fuck off back to wherever it is you came from!



lets not forget whos the "toughest" on this forum--- me


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## Leon77 (Mar 24, 2005)

Steroids are in almost in every sport. However, the use of steroids is incredibly bad. Never, ever, take them. These athletes who do, they will end up with severe health problems. everyone has heart problems, a local kid I know has nasty protein deposits in his arms, and it screws up your bones and ligments. I have seen people in my gym get injured from steroid use (your muscles develop, but your ligaments and joints can't keep up with muscles, i.e. this guy I saw benching 395 dropped the weight on his chest because his left shoulder dislocated). Plus the side-effects of steroids are permanent and mostly irreversible, yet the strength you get is lost when you cycle off. So steroid use has temporary benefits, but in the end you are only screwing yourself over.

average people on the street shouldnt be needing steroids


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## Tha Don (Mar 24, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> Steroids are in almost in every sport. However, the use of steroids is incredibly bad. Never, ever, take them. These athletes who do, they will end up with severe health problems. everyone has heart problems, a local kid I know has nasty protein deposits in his arms, and it screws up your bones and ligments. I have seen people in my gym get injured from steroid use (your muscles develop, but your ligaments and joints can't keep up with muscles, i.e. this guy I saw benching 395 dropped the weight on his chest because his left shoulder dislocated). Plus the side-effects of steroids are permanent and mostly irreversible, yet the strength you get is lost when you cycle off. So steroid use has temporary benefits, but in the end you are only screwing yourself over.
> 
> average people on the street shouldnt be needing steroids





i think your confuzing 'use' with 'abuse', all of those effects (along with 99% of other sides effects from steroids) can be minimised if used correctly and with the proper precautions taken, 1-2 sensible cycles a year with precautions and blood testing ain't gonna cause any of that rubbish your talking about

damm for your sake i really hope some of the other guys like flex and gr8 don't read this thread


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## musclepump (Mar 24, 2005)

This Leon really is a cunt!    

He has to be an old-timer trying to rub us the wrong way; no one is THIS stupid!


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## Leon77 (Mar 24, 2005)

musclepump said:
			
		

> This Leon really is a cunt!
> 
> He has to be an old-timer trying to rub us the wrong way; no one is THIS stupid!



why am i a cunt- just because i aint agreeing with you- i call it how i see it- i have trained with gold winning olympic athletes and even though i aint a expert in dosage and technical use, i have seen first hand the side effects of both steroid ABUSE and USE that was classed as "safe". plus i have seen with me own eyes many times, athletes losing gains in appearance, strength and power when cycling off gear, some guys end up in bad physical condition in terms of apearance and peformance when cycling off, even when done correctly, which can lead to steroid abuse

i dont buy this theory that used correctly steroids are fine for anyone, its not peoples bodys react differently


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## LAM (Mar 24, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> why am i a cunt- just because i aint agreeing with you- i call it how i see it- i have trained with gold winning olympic athletes and even though i aint a expert in dosage and technical use, i have seen first hand the side effects of both steroid ABUSE and USE that was classed as "safe". plus i have seen with me own eyes many times, athletes losing gains in appearance, strength and power when cycling off gear, some guys end up in bad physical condition in terms of apearance and peformance when cycling off, even when done correctly, which can lead to steroid abuse
> 
> i dont buy this theory that used correctly steroids are fine for anyone, its not peoples bodys react differently



didn't you say in a previous thread that you have only been training with weights for 3 years ?  I've been trainining with weights for over 20 years and have seen PLENTY of people use steroids correctly with out injury and with out side effects.


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## musclepump (Mar 24, 2005)

I've trained with Olympic gold medalists from Sydney and Athens, they're all fine. So what? I recently consulted with a group of a dozen Olympians from 1968-current about supplementation and steroid use in sports; users and abusers in the group, no health problems to report.

You're a cunt because you think you are the say-all-do-all of gear. You're not, you're stupid. You don't know a damn thing factually about what you're talking about. So you hung out with some people who fucked up, or some people who were genetically prone to disfunction, I'm sorry. But that doesn't mean steroids are bad.

Uh oh, you'd better stop drinking that water because it might have fluoride or chlorine in it, and I've seen people die from poisioning. Oh no! RUN! We'd all better stick to beer... oh wait, we can't because... well, you get the picture.


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## vegman (Mar 24, 2005)

What was the point of this tread?


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## gococksDJS (Mar 24, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> your a nobody, "a bum" who has never achieved nothing, you write all these fancy write outs saying steroids are harmless and great and I've trained with "Olympic gold medalists from Sydney and Athens" is bullshit, you wouldnt last 1min in 400m interval sprints,you show me 50 people who steroids have worked out good for them, i can show you 50 cases where its not worked out, even when used correctly, dwain chambers ruined his carear when useing steroids- it infact slowed him down over the 100m - bloated him all up and now hes banned i know people who been on steroids before and they have all lost the gains when off cylces, and end up in worse condition then ever - bloated mid section, water retention, steroids are a quick fix but it all falls flat later down the road, people like you think they fitness gurus who think they know it all but know fuck all, why would anyone listen to you and that picture of you and that silly pose of your arm is doin my nut.


 What is your point with all this mindless babble? Do you for some reason think we all need a father figure telling us that steroids will kill us all. All you are doing is taking up space where useful information could be posted. No one listens to your post because all you do is state opinions and talk like steroid use and abuse are the same thing. Why don't you save your breath, because your full of shit and don't know what you are talking about. Why don't you run along now son and leave the anabolic section to the adults. And don't drink mellow yellow because yellow-5 shrinks your dick.


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## Leon77 (Mar 24, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> What is your point with all this mindless babble? Do you for some reason think we all need a father figure telling us that steroids will kill us all. All you are doing is taking up space where useful information could be posted. No one listens to your post because all you do is state opinions and talk like steroid use and abuse are the same thing. Why don't you save your breath, because your full of shit and don't know what you are talking about. Why don't you run along now son and leave the anabolic section to the adults. And don't drink mellow yellow because yellow-5 shrinks your dick.




well i have alot of replies so people are reading it, i dont know what i am talkin about and u dont know what your talkin about, whats this tough guy talk?


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## gococksDJS (Mar 24, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> well i have alot of replies so people are reading it, i dont know what i am talkin about and u dont know what your talkin about, i could take you down easy in a 1 on 1 so whats with your tough guy talk?


 What kind of hard ass does it take to say shit like this over the computer? Do you think we will ever see each other? The fact that you say you can take me down when you know we will never meet just shows your level of immaturity and how big of a pussy you are. You know nothing about me, so trying this hard ass "Dude, I would kick your ass" attitude is very comical. You provide no useful imput on the board except to try to start arguments with your stupid posts, so why don't you run along and educate yourself before preaching about something. Or are you an endocrinologist with a PhD in biochemistry and physiology? I bet you are Mr. Hardass, so go ahead and feed us some more bullshit. Well guess what, ive been to the moon.


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## musclepump (Mar 24, 2005)

LeonTheIdiot said:
			
		

> your a nobody, "a bum" who has never achieved nothing, you write all these fancy write outs saying steroids are harmless and great and I've trained with "Olympic gold medalists from Sydney and Athens" is bullshit, you wouldnt last 1min in 400m interval sprints


 

If you had any idea of the athletic accomplishments I've made, without steroids, you'd shit your pants. You're the type of guy who has to try and exercise his prowess by pretending he's a master of the art. You're ignorant and you try to pit your mindless ramblings onto others, and you take offense to it when people point out you're full of shit. Deal with it, and get off this board. You're only making an ass of yourself.

When did I say steroids were harmless? I'm an advocate for INTELLIGENT steroid use. You, obviously, wouldn't know what that is pointing out extreme cases. Track athletes have obviously benefitted from anabolics (Montgomery, White, et al.), until they got caught. If you're in a drug tested sport, don't use. If you want it for personal reasons, go for it if you're smart enough to research first.


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## musclepump (Mar 24, 2005)

Oh, and another thing moron, if you're going to try and flame someone, or even try to get your point over the plate, learn to fucking spell. If you're not on roids, find out what's preventing your educational capacity from reaching "normal" levels. Learn to phrase a sentence correctly, learn the difference between your/you're and there/their/they're, and you'll be a step closer. 

Ignorant fuck.


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## SlimShady (Mar 24, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> Steroids are in almost in every sport. However, the use of steroids is incredibly bad. Never, ever, take them. These athletes who do, they will end up with severe health problems. everyone has heart problems, a local kid I know has nasty protein deposits in his arms, and it screws up your bones and ligments. I have seen people in my gym get injured from steroid use (your muscles develop, but your ligaments and joints can't keep up with muscles, i.e. this guy I saw benching 395 dropped the weight on his chest because his left shoulder dislocated). Plus the side-effects of steroids are permanent and mostly irreversible, yet the strength you get is lost when you cycle off. So steroid use has temporary benefits, but in the end you are only screwing yourself over.
> 
> average people on the street shouldnt be needing steroids


 I'm sorry that you've seen some people who've had bad experiences with steroids. That's very unfortunate. It proves that a lot of people try to use steroids without having sufficient knowledge to do so in a safe manner. I don't know what athletes you are speaking about, but they certainly aren't in professional sports. I spent a few years as a pro and now I am a sports agent. I represent some pretty successful people. Steroid use is rampant, but it's not causing the problems that you speak of. Where do you think most of the athletes get their gear? They aren't buying it from some guy behind the gym. Most of them are getting it right from the team doctor. The use is administered and controlled by a physician. There are literally hundreds of retired players who used gear (during their careers) and experienced zero problems. Perhaps even thousands. The track and field athletes you speak of, they aren't using common steroids because they're concerned about beating the test. They have to test clean, so they use exotic substances and clouding agents. Don't confuse those drugs with steroids a knowledgable body builder might use. 

  Once more, I am sorry about your friends who had problems. Don't confuse abuse with use. They are two different things.


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## live2pump (Mar 24, 2005)

Damn Leon, you made the post run rampant.

My original reason of creating this post was to get the thought process of taking steroids.  I wanted to know when is the moment when you say to yourself, "I need to do something that is possibly harmful and illegal to make my physique look better!"  

I don't think there is nearly enough medical research to say if steroids are bad or not.  Honestly, I wonder what would happen if a (pre-death) poll was conducted on former athletes, BB, etc who died fairly young or from terminal illnesses in the 60s,70s,80s.

We are blessed to to own such delicate and complex bodies and we should be working with what the man above gave us.  If males were indeded to produce the amount of test that steroids gave it should be as natural as breathing air for our lungs.  Yes they're are some unfortunate that have disorders w/ test and they I can see needing  a boost.  I just hope a lot of you guys that are pro-steroids don't look back and regret it for such short-term goals.


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## Little Wing (Mar 25, 2005)

just a womans out of place opinion but even if steroids have risk and aren't so well accepted. i think they are still better than a country full off obese people sitting on their sofas scarfing down buckets of fat and smoking cigarettes... it's a personal choice and far far less dangerous than many of the choices people in our society make. yea my mother died of second hand steroids? oh that's smoke that does that sorry. our government is retarded on this issue too just like everything else. a kid cannot go pick up a pack of smokes for their dad but he can go pick up dads perscription for 100 oxycontin. where the hell is the common sense there? then there is extreme body modification. it's legal to go have your tongue split in two and your teeth filed into points, scales tattoed all over you, things implanted under your skin. christ fake tits. there is a real healthy thing to do to a body. but because most people including me don't really understand steroids the government reacts like a bunch of cross waving baptists. i don't have to understand a guy wanting to transform his body into a tiger-man thru modification but it shouldn't give me the right to stop him . not my body it's his.
 it's a legal right to cut life from a womans womb and throw it in the trash. it's a legal right to surgically alter the body in procedures that have a very high risk of death, face lifts, lipo, implants,_ vanity_ sugeries. have some rational perspective as to where steroids fit on the scheme of these things. then lighten up.


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## P-funk (Mar 25, 2005)

I have gone over the pros and cons before.  I must say my conscience, like yours has kept me from doing it.

I understand why people do it.  I don't think it is a bad thing.  I don't think that they are dangerous if you are smart about it (like anything).

The pro's would be:
to get bigger
stronger
better physique
etc...

All that sounds great but the biggest CON of using for me is that I have no interest at being a pro bodybuilder and I am not a professional or Elite athelete.  I am just a regular guy.  So, I don't see the point in doing it just so that I can walk about the streets ripped at 210lbs and feel better about myself.  I would rather just try and work with what I have and do the best that I can.  If I was a pro athelete I would have no problem using.  But, for me, it just isn't the path to take.


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## devildog88 (Mar 25, 2005)

Didn't Arnold have open heart surgery due to artery thickining and blockages.


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## Leon77 (Mar 25, 2005)

i am not against steroid use i was just saying you cant tell everyone theres no side effects and the result is just big muscles, these people are not doctors etc

This is copy and pasted from Massmuscleinc.com, it is a post by some guy, I just think you all should read, remember their are a lot of factors that go into something like this, but it seems kidney disease has been creeping up on some bodybuilders as of late. 

"Alot of you people know me, but for those who don't i'm a 2 time state middleweight Pa State champion in the NPC. I also took it to the next level 2 times competing at Nationals for the allmighty PRO card. I recently was diagnosed with Renal Kidney Failure, that means basically my kidney are shutting down. I need dialysis 3 times a week for 4 hours a session to stay alive. Kidney problems do not run in my family, nobody in my family has ever had a kidney related issue.
You have to realize there are consiquenses to your actions with AAS, do not think that you are invinsible. 
I was recently prepping for the state championships, i figured this is my year for the overall state title Mr Pennsyvania and it was balls to the wall. About 6 weeks out i started throwing up every day sometimes 2 times a day, my ankles were holding water and my skin was turning very pale and i was so fatigued but i pushed on anyway thinking i was being a pussy. Finally it got so bad i could harly breathe and was truely afraid that something very serious was wrong. I went to the doctor for bloodwork, he sent it out stat the next thing i know he called me and wanted me in the hospital NOW. I went to intensive care where they gave me 4 units of blood and blood pressure meds, turns out my kidney's where shutting of and have been doing so for some time now. I went from prepping for a state title to having a doctor sitting in front of me telling me "you need a transplant". If i would have had bloodwork and payed attention to it i would more than likey not been in this grim position. Nobody talks about the bad side of steroids on these boards, so i just wanted you to know what you are getting into. I don't mean to lecture, i was asked to write this piece to make people realize there is a bad side about steroids that most people are in denial about.
Thank you for listening and hopefully i can help some of you from being in the same position as me some day.

I am a non drinker, non smoker, i have had a very strict diet since 1996 always lean. I have to say that i have also taken the ephedrine, caffeine, aspirin stack since 1991 nonstop, and nsaids for joint and muscle pain. Once again this is not in my genes and i am only 37. We all know anadrol, d-bol, winny, halo, and tren are harsh substances, but the quest for size blinds us to the negative aspects of these drugs. I'm not saying don't do them, that is a personal choice but at least be careful.

I never juiced like some of these people on the boards. Shit was hard to come by where i live so cycles were very basic with average doses. I never did 1 gram of test a week, d-bol would be 50mg a day tops, and anadrol would be 150 mg a day for a maximum of a week during a cycle. The thing is that i never really came off since 1996. Figured i'd never turn pro if i took time off."


----------



## Witmaster (Mar 25, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> lets not forget whos the "toughest" on this forum--- me


Uh...... yep.  No doubt about that Ace.  You're one "tough" cookie indeed!!


----------



## Leon77 (Mar 25, 2005)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Uh...... yep.  No doubt about that Ace.  You're one "tough" cookie indeed!!


i was saying that in response to be called a cunt because i said steroids may have side effects even if not abused

i have made excellent gains of strength and lean compact muscle without using steroids 







 [/IMG]


----------



## LAM (Mar 25, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> i was saying that in response to be called a cunt because i said steroids may have side effects even if not abused
> 
> i have made excellent gains of strength and lean compact muscle without using steroids
> 
> ...



the fact remains that all of your comments are based mainly on your opionion and not on research that YOU have performed.  do you even know the difference between anabolic and androgenic steroids ?  if so name one irreversable side effect of short term nandrolone usage ?

many of us here trained for a number of years before deciding to use AAS.  I was a natural 260 lbs and had been training for 20+ years before I stuck a needle in my ass.  when I stop using steroids I will still be bigger and stronger than 99.9% of the people on this planet.


----------



## musclepump (Mar 25, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> i was saying that in response to be called a cunt because i said steroids may have side effects even if not abused
> 
> i have made excellent gains of strength and lean compact muscle without using steroids


Leon, I've got nothing personal against you, really. I came at you the way I did because you didn't "just say" that steroids "May" have side effects; you came out in a way that insinuated that all of us who even condone the use of steroids were immoral, moronic losers. You really shouldn't try and come down on people--share your opinions, that's what we're all here to do, but don't try to act smarter or more dominant tha n you are.


----------



## njc (Mar 25, 2005)

Why cant you guys just disagree with him in a cool manner? whats with all the calling him a cunt and shit like that?  Overly defensive much?

He was just posting what he believes.  If he believes what he does due to his past experiences then I wanna hear about it.  If there are pro and anti steroid views I want to hear them both.  He didnt write his info to insult you guys, he wrote it to voice his beliefs.  If what hes seen in his life leads him to the conclusion that roids are bad then why does that make him a "putz", or a "cunt".  Fuckin retarded.


----------



## musclepump (Mar 25, 2005)

njc said:
			
		

> Why cant you guys just disagree with him in a cool manner? whats with all the calling him a cunt and shit like that? Overly defensive much?
> 
> He was just posting what he believes. If he believes what he does due to his past experiences then I wanna hear about it. If there are pro and anti steroid views I want to hear them both. He didnt write his info to insult you guys, he wrote it to voice his beliefs. If what hes seen in his life leads him to the conclusion that roids are bad then why does that make him a "putz", or a "cunt". Fuckin retarded.


Because he was acting as stupid and holy as you are, idiot.


----------



## njc (Mar 25, 2005)

musclepump said:
			
		

> Because he was acting as stupid and holy and you are, idiot.


Thats the stupidest sentence ive ever read in my life.


----------



## Leon77 (Mar 25, 2005)

musclepump said:
			
		

> Because he was acting as stupid



hang on there boy, me being stupid just because i said some nasty and unhealthy side effects can occure during and off cycles some people who are told to take steroids end up a bloated mess who became injury prone. which i have witnesed, you ramble on like anyone can take steroids, sit back and light the cigars.


----------



## musclepump (Mar 25, 2005)

Leon: What in any of my posts has insinuated that I think "anyone" can take steroids, sist back, and light a cigar? Point out one time where I have made the use of Anabolic steroids sound like it's for anyone and everyone. You can't. You came out denoting anyone who uses or condones the use of steroids, and you assume just because people aren't as against them as you are, that they are pro-steroids for everyone? Not a chance.


----------



## Witmaster (Mar 25, 2005)

live2pump said:
			
		

> Damn Leon, you made the post run rampant.
> 
> My original reason of creating this post was to get the thought process of taking steroids. I wanted to know when is the moment when you say to yourself, "I need to do something that is possibly harmful and illegal to make my physique look better!" ....


You seem to be convinced that Steroids are inevitably and unavoidably harmful when used.  I would submit to you that the majority of users are doing so because after careful research and proper study they have each discovered that Steroids, when used in a responsible manner, are not harmful.


----------



## SlimShady (Mar 25, 2005)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> You seem to be convinced that Steroids are inevitably and unavoidably harmful when used. I would submit to you that the majority of users are doing so because after careful research and proper study they have each discovered that Steroids, when used in a responsible manner, are not harmful.


  I wonder what the real percentages of informed/uninformed users actually is?
  The way I see it, there are three kinds of people using steroids -

  1. Athletes using under doctor's supervision. They really don't need to know anything because that's the Doc's job.

  2. People who study, research and learn the proper uses and dosages prior to using.

 3. People who "get it from some guy at the gym" and just follow orders from an unknown person, and end up taking the wrong dosages, no PCT, etc. These people end up crippled, hurt, or dead. 

 Just a wild guess on my part, but I would say the majority resides in number 3. Most people aren't smart enough to research anything, plus they equate illegal steroids with illegal drug use - (n which case one could safely listen to the dealer or a buddy and not really worry about research.)


----------



## Witmaster (Mar 25, 2005)

Oh I won't dispute your theory here but suffice it to say that there really is no way to honestly know the answer. I honestly believe that if you were to somehow get an actual "count" of ALL the people who use steroids responsibly you may very well find they greatly outnumber the ones who do so with reckless abandon. Unfortunately, since roids are illegal the main focus of these threads seems to be on the "deadly side effects" because that's all people see on the news.


----------



## live2pump (Mar 25, 2005)

*I wonder what the real percentages of informed/uninformed users actually is?*

Shady-

I would put money on it that that most users of steroids would fit into the bottom 2 categories.  Mostly category 3.  The average joeschmo doesn't have the cash or the connections to have a Md. guiding their cycles.


----------



## Tha Don (Mar 26, 2005)

some of you need to realise there is a big difference between steroid use and abuse

bottom line is... *steroids are not harmful when used sensibly*


----------



## Leon77 (Mar 27, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> some of you need to realise there is a big difference between steroid use and abuse
> 
> bottom line is... *steroids are not harmful when used sensibly*



why do the experts on here keep saying steroids have no side effects and repeatedly fail to come up with any sort of a explanation of facts and answers to back there claims?

these so called experts are just as bad as the guys who are against steroids. 

people who hate steroids bang on about how they kill you and the pro steroids just bang on about their totaly side effect free for anyone, theirs no "middle" ground balance.


----------



## LAM (Mar 27, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> why do the experts on here keep saying steroids have no side effects and repeatedly fail to come up with any sort of a explanation of facts and answers to back there claims?



where are your facts ? where are the links to your medical studies ?

  like I asked in a previous post.  name one side-effect that is not irreversable from short term nandrolone use ?


----------



## Flex (Mar 27, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> It is my opinion that you can gain all the weight and gains you want without them. Far to much emphasis is placed on their value for a improved physique.




Ya, you're right. You can look like Ronnie w/o steroids.





			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> Superstars of the past such as reg park, john grimek, steeve reeves, clancy ross, jack delinger, and bill pearl reached the ultimate in massive muscularity, so can you with the right diet, training system and correct supplementation"




I got news for ya. Most of those guys DID use steroids. The guy who supposedly introduced steroids to Arnold learned about them from Steve Reeves.




			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> Point to 1 guy in his 50/60"s who was a steroid user who is alive and healthy.




Hmmm. Arnold, Ferrigno, let's see. EVERY other pro from the Golden Era, not to mention EVERY other single guy who's ever done steroids.




			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> Don't tell me schwartzenegger. he made his own admissions about the negative effects.




Really? Prove it. After he had triple bypass heart surgery the Dr's confirmed it was due to a disfunctional heart valve from a birth defect, not steroids. So, please inform me what other negative effects he said there were.




			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> Did you ever see the special that was done on E german and russian athletes and steroid use?most were weight lifters and sprinters. The injections were forced upon them by doctors who told them the sh*t was harmless.Today they are totally fu*ked up mental cases.




I'd like to see some documentation on this also, please.




			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> Remember Lyle Alzedo? He's fu*kin dead. Stick your "taken in moderation" in your ass.What are you guys fu*kin doctors now?




Lyle Alzedo? This PROVES what little you know. He did of a brain tumor. PLEASE show me proof that steroids caused that.




			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> I cant help but think it just represents a cheap, lazy, reckless way to cut corners to get ahead temporarily. Their endorsement sends the wrong message to the young and impressionable athletes striving for success.



Just b/c you suck at bodybuilding doesn't mean you hafta hate on people that use steroids to enhance their physique. And to this ridiculous "endorsement" to young kids that you speak of, how bout don't let your fucking kids unconditionally worship athletes. That's a social problem that directly begins with the kids' parents, and not an athlete's problem who chooses to use steroids.  




			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> lets not forget whos the "toughest" on this forum--- me



Wow. I'm scared.



			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> Steroids are in almost in every sport. However, the use of steroids is incredibly bad. Never, ever, take them. These athletes who do, they will end up with severe health problems. everyone has heart problems, a local kid I know has nasty protein deposits in his arms, and it screws up your bones and ligments. I have seen people in my gym get injured from steroid use (your muscles develop, but your ligaments and joints can't keep up with muscles, i.e. this guy I saw benching 395 dropped the weight on his chest because his left shoulder dislocated). Plus the side-effects of steroids are permanent and mostly irreversible, yet the strength you get is lost when you cycle off. So steroid use has temporary benefits, but in the end you are only screwing yourself over.
> 
> average people on the street shouldnt be needing steroids




Your opinion on how bad steroids are doesn't mean shit. Right now your credibility is about a -1 outta 10. You need to show some facts, son. 




			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> i have seen with me own eyes many times, athletes losing gains in appearance, strength and power when cycling off gear, some guys end up in bad physical condition in terms of apearance and peformance when cycling off, even when done correctly, which can lead to steroid abuse



I got news for ya, these "people" didn't cycle correctly. Sure, you're gonna lose some size and strength coming off, but saying it "can" lead to steroids abuse? You've got to be fucking kidding me. ANYTHING "CAN" lead to something.   





			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> why do the experts on here keep saying steroids have no side effects and repeatedly fail to come up with any sort of a explanation of facts and answers to back there claims?



Who says they have NO side effects? 
What D was saying is that, when done properly, steroids are not harmful, not that there's no side effects.

Dude,
people are treating you like a clown b/c repeatedly you sound like a clown. That's great you can state your opinion about what you think happens, but that hasn't cut it since people said the world was flat. What i mean is basically your opinion doesn't mean shit unless your backing it up with fact. Start showing some fact to back up your garbage.  Start with my signature, "Got juice". Do some reading then maybe, just maybe, you'll have some credibility around here..


----------



## Leon77 (Mar 28, 2005)

Flex said:
			
		

> Ya, you're right. You can look like Ronnie w/o steroids.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





why are people who use steroids think they are supirior then everyone else is beyond me


----------



## Mudge (Mar 28, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> pro steroids just bang on about their totaly side effect free for anyone, theirs no "middle" ground balance.



How do you figure that? Playing with your hormones is not always side effect free, nature does what it does best all to its lonesome. To interfere requires care and education, as well as monitoring of your health. 

Can humans take medicine, monitor, and control side effects? Yes.


----------



## Mudge (Mar 28, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> Point to 1 guy in his 50/60"s who was a steroid user who is alive and healthy.



Albert Beckles is in his 70s, and was huge and ripped the last time I saw him.



			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> Remember Lyle Alzedo? He's fu*kin dead. Stick your "taken in moderation" in your ass.What are you guys fu*kin doctors now?



Tell us what his own doctors said about his condition? Or are you just blowing hot air again?


----------



## ZorroAzul (Mar 28, 2005)

Hello everyone, it's been a while 

Nice to see that after a few months, nothing changes here, LOL...

just wanted to add my 2 cents...   A close friend of mine just finished med school and started juicing.  He was very weary of me juicing at first, but now that he finished med school he is convinced tht there is nothing wrong with them if used correctly.

"used correctly" means correct PCT, using anti-estrogen when needed,  no overdoing it, taking enough time off, bla bla bla....

something we alredy know here in this forum, and something we are tired of explaining to all these people that storm in here like a SEAGULL  (makes a lot of noise, craps all over the place, then leaves)


----------



## Leon77 (Mar 28, 2005)

ZorroAzul said:
			
		

> Hello everyone, it's been a while
> 
> Nice to see that after a few months, nothing changes here, LOL...
> 
> ...




i aint saying they going to kill you YOU FOOL, i am saying steroids are overated, and can have side effects in people even if taken in moderation crap which is why you cant say everyone can use them and the results are  bigger muscles. i have more strength, power then any steroid user i know. who cares about the bench press or huge dumbell curls hows that going to help you in life


----------



## Du (Mar 28, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> i aint saying they going to kill you YOU FOOL, i am saying steroids are overated, and can have side effects in people even if taken in moderation crap which is why you cant say everyone can use them and the results are bigger muscles. i have more strength, power then any steroid user i know. who cares about the bench press or huge dumbell curls hows that going to help you in life


Youre a very angry person. I suggest you look into counseling.


----------



## ZorroAzul (Mar 28, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> . i have more strength, power then any steroid user i know. who cares about the bench press or huge dumbell curls hows that going to help you in life



You must not know ANY juicers at all lol....  

And one thing you DO have is bad spelling....  oops...


----------



## LAM (Mar 28, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> i aint saying they going to kill you YOU FOOL, i am saying steroids are overated, and can have side effects in people even if taken in moderation crap which is why you cant say everyone can use them and the results are  bigger muscles. i have more strength, power then any steroid user i know. who cares about the bench press or huge dumbell curls hows that going to help you in life



   you have yet to state any FACTS regarding any health issues caused by moderate steroid use.  where is your proof ? all you do is run your mouth and state your opinion.

if you are such an expert on bodybuilding why don't you give us some pointers ?  how tall are you and how much do you weigh ? how much LBM have you gained since you started resistance training ?


----------



## gococksDJS (Mar 28, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> i aint saying they going to kill you YOU FOOL, i am saying steroids are overated, and can have side effects in people even if taken in moderation crap which is why you cant say everyone can use them and the results are bigger muscles. i have more strength, power then any steroid user i know. who cares about the bench press or huge dumbell curls hows that going to help you in life


 Do you realize how hypocritical and monotonous your posts are? You ask how a big bench or big curls are going to help you in life, but what does that have to do with steroid use? You claim to be stronger and more powerful than any steroid user you know, but how does that help you in life? So are you essentially saying that attaining strength while using anabolic steroids will serve no purpose in life, but if you don't use anabolics then your strength is a pedestal to preach from and chastise every anabolic user? Do the bullys take your lunch money? Is that why your so mad?


----------



## Mudge (Mar 28, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> i have more strength, power then any steroid user i know. who cares about the bench press or huge dumbell curls hows that going to help you in life



It sure sounds like you care.


----------



## SlimShady (Mar 29, 2005)

Leon77.. 

 Read this link and then tell me what you think. I told you that most pro-athletes used steroids and I told you they got them from the team doc...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/29/60II/main683747.shtml


----------



## Leon77 (Mar 29, 2005)

SlimShady said:
			
		

> Leon77..
> 
> Read this link and then tell me what you think. I told you that most pro-athletes used steroids and I told you they got them from the team doc...
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/29/60II/main683747.shtml



i dont doubt they get in from the team doctor and to say every pro athlete uses illegal substances is wrong also. none of us know whats going if we not involved in the sport

Kelly holmes the british double olympic gold winnner over 800m - 1500m in athens 2004 i can guarantee you is not taking any banned subtances to improve performance while some compeitiors have.


----------



## redspy (Mar 29, 2005)

Guarantee?  There's no official test for HGH and there are a number of currently undetectable steroid varients out there so how can you have such confidence?  Another leap of faith.


----------



## Leon77 (Mar 29, 2005)

redspy said:
			
		

> Guarantee?  There's no official test for HGH and there are a number of currently undetectable steroid varients out there so how can you have such confidence?  Another leap of faith.




why do people assume YOU HAVE TO TAKE STEROIDS,

1.to get a good physique
2. to get the women
3.to be strong


----------



## redspy (Mar 29, 2005)

No one is assuming the above.  A lot of people here have reached their genetic potential and want to push the boundaries of growth.  Some take steroids to complete, some do it for cosmetic reasons, others do it for strength.  Whatever the reason it's a personal choice - whether you like it or not.


----------



## SlimShady (Mar 29, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> i dont doubt they get in from the team doctor and to say every pro athlete uses illegal substances is wrong also. none of us know whats going if we not involved in the sport
> 
> Kelly holmes the british double olympic gold winnner over 800m - 1500m in athens 2004 i can guarantee you is not taking any banned subtances to improve performance while some compeitiors have.


 First of all, I never said EVERY pro athlete, I said most. There is a difference.

 Second, I am involved with athletes and used to be a pro myself.

 Third, you have no idea what Kelly Holmes uses or doesn't use. You aren't with Kelly 24 hrs per day and there is no way you'd be told anyway.


----------



## Mudge (Mar 29, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> why do people assume YOU HAVE TO TAKE STEROIDS,
> 
> 1.to get a good physique
> 2. to get the women
> 3.to be strong



I have never seen anyone here such a sorry ass that they actually said they "had to do it."

Some people want things to happen faster. For some, benching 300 or 400 is not all that strong. Its a personal choice, just as your choice not to use, to bitch and moan like a little kid who loves to argue, and missquote users of the forum.

When you stop worrying so much about what other people do with and to themselves, I bet your blood pressure will go down a few points.


----------



## Leon77 (Mar 29, 2005)

SlimShady said:
			
		

> First of all, I never said EVERY pro athlete, I said most. There is a difference.
> 
> Second, I am involved with athletes and used to be a pro myself.
> 
> Third, you have no idea what Kelly Holmes uses or doesn't use. You aren't with Kelly 24 hrs per day and there is no way you'd be told anyway.



i would be suprised holmes would lie to her family, she very against drugs in sport-


----------



## redspy (Mar 29, 2005)

How many athletes are publically pro drugs may I ask?


----------



## Leon77 (Mar 29, 2005)

redspy said:
			
		

> How many athletes are publically pro drugs may I ask?



whats that got to do with it


----------



## redspy (Mar 29, 2005)

Well, you said "she very against drugs in sport" because that is her public stance.  Name an athlete who's openly supportive of drug use.  See my point?  They're all publically against drugs, if not the IOC would do more than random tests.


----------



## Leon77 (Mar 30, 2005)

redspy said:
			
		

> Well, you said "she very against drugs in sport" because that is her public stance.  Name an athlete who's openly supportive of drug use.  See my point?  They're all publically against drugs, if not the IOC would do more than random tests.



 most athletes dont say anything for or against about drugs, holmes has gone on the record many many times in england about steroids in sport and when she has lost in past, she has said her self "well at least i am clean"  or "they should award me gold"
her times we not freakish or recored breaking and completely obtainable without cheating with hard work and talent.


----------



## musclepump (Mar 30, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> most athletes dont say anything for or against about drugs, holmes has gone on the record many many times in england about steroids in sport and when she has lost in past, she has said her self "well at least i am clean" or "they should award me gold"
> her times we not freakish or recored breaking and completely obtainable without cheating with hard work and talent.


So are you saying that she thinks everytime she loses, it's to someone on drugs? How repugnant.


----------



## Leon77 (Mar 30, 2005)

musclepump said:
			
		

> So are you saying that she thinks everytime she loses, it's to someone on drugs? How repugnant.



no but there has been certain incidences when athletes like Regina Jacobs, who tested positive for a banned designer anabolic steroid at world indoor championships and a few years back holmes said live on TV that the winner of 800m world championships, jolanda ceplak was using banned drugs. and "at least i am clean and walk away with a clear conchance"


----------



## Mudge (Mar 30, 2005)

www.dictionary.com


----------



## brogers (Mar 30, 2005)

Out of curiousity, does the temporary negative effect on your LDL/HDL ratio really matter long term?


----------



## Mudge (Mar 30, 2005)

Winstrol can affect lipids for months after cessation, and arterial plaque is not temporary unless it breaks off which is not a good thing.

Its its lots of little "temporary" things that you do with your life that either mean a long, or short lifespan. Of course everyones genes are different.


----------



## Flex (Mar 30, 2005)

Leon,

Do you see why we "bash" people like you who give nothing but opinion on steroids and steroid related topics?


----------



## shutupntra1n (Mar 30, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> i would be suprised holmes would lie to her family, she very against drugs in sport-


Check out this link :
http://www.bodybuilding.com/bodybuilders/gmacken.htm

Gina Maken, better now known as Pro FBB Gina Davis had an interview from years ago. Check out the part where she's asked what advice she has for other bodybuilders. 

Then check out this link :
http://www.ginadavis.us/


----------



## Leon77 (Mar 30, 2005)

shutupntra1n said:
			
		

> Check out this link :
> http://www.bodybuilding.com/bodybuilders/gmacken.htm
> 
> Gina Maken, better now known as Pro FBB Gina Davis had an interview from years ago. Check out the part where she's asked what advice she has for other bodybuilders.
> ...




What One Tip Would You Give Other Bodybuilders?

Train to achieve your own "personal best". Work within your genetic structure without attempting to alter it with enhancement drugs. Never sacrifice your health for a trophy!


----------



## LAM (Mar 30, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> What One Tip Would You Give Other Bodybuilders?
> 
> Train to achieve your own "personal best". Work within your genetic structure without attempting to alter it with enhancement drugs. Never sacrifice your health for a trophy!



obviously you don't know jack squat about the IFBB.  NOBODY is natural in the IFBB.


----------



## Leon77 (Mar 30, 2005)

LAM said:
			
		

> obviously you don't know jack squat about the IFBB.  NOBODY is natural in the IFBB.



not me sayin it- i was quoting what the guy had posted


----------



## shutupntra1n (Mar 30, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> not me sayin it- i was quoting what the guy had posted


You obviously failed to check out both links. I was enlightening this thread by pointing out your ignorance towards some pro competitors not using b/c of their own personal ethics. Furthermore, Gina Maken in the BB.com interview stood by her drug free ideas at one point too. Now go check her out. The only thing that has changed is her last name from marriage. LOL You are very gullible.


----------



## Leon77 (Mar 30, 2005)

shutupntra1n said:
			
		

> You obviously failed to check out both links. I was enlightening this thread by pointing out your ignorance towards some pro competitors not using b/c of their own personal ethics. Furthermore, Gina Maken in the BB.com interview stood by her drug free ideas at one point too. Now go check her out. The only thing that has changed is her last name from marriage. LOL You are very gullible.



and why are you compearing a bodybuilder to 800/1500m, 5ft3, 120 pound brittish olympic athlete is even more dumb


----------



## shutupntra1n (Mar 30, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> and why are you compearing a bodybuilder to 800/1500m, 5ft3, 120 pound brittish olympic athlete is even more dumb


I was not comparing the women... I was pointing out to you that just b/c someone claims at one point they want to be drug free doesn't mean they are or that they will stay that way. And for you to belive someone at the drop of the dime means you're a fool  Now that's what I was saying.


----------



## Dale Mabry (Mar 30, 2005)

Most people who are fervently against steroids are prolly doing them.


----------



## Mudge (Mar 30, 2005)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> Most people who are fervently against steroids are prolly doing them.



"Thank God for strength. Pure, natural strength!" - Ronnie Coleman


----------



## musclepump (Mar 30, 2005)

Ronnie Coleman is hilarious. He also endorses those "Life Wave" patches


----------



## redspy (Mar 30, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> "Thank God for strength. Pure, natural strength!" - Ronnie Coleman


----------



## Mudge (Mar 30, 2005)

musclepump said:
			
		

> Ronnie Coleman is hilarious. He also endorses those "Life Wave" patches



Kevin Levrone has a fetish for magnetic bracelets.


----------



## musclepump (Mar 30, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Kevin Levrone has a fetish for magnetic bracelets.


Don't you? They're the key to muscles, you know.


----------



## Supermans Daddy (Apr 2, 2005)

*Originally Posted by Leon77*



			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> lets not forget whos the "toughest" on this forum--- me


 Damn Dog , I beg to differ wit ya, That would be me Homey!





> Originally Posted by Leon77
> What One Tip Would You Give Other Bodybuilders?
> 
> Train to achieve your own "personal best". Work within your genetic structure without attempting to alter it with enhancement drugs. Never sacrifice your health for a trophy!
> ...


----------



## Supermans Daddy (Apr 2, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> i dont doubt they get in from the team doctor and to say every pro athlete uses illegal substances is wrong also. none of us know whats going if we not involved in the sport
> .


 Well , I'm involved and I'm telling you it's harder to find someone these days that is not juice'n. Maybe some old men on tha Golf course, and they are probley on GH.


----------



## SlimShady (Apr 3, 2005)

Mikhal said:
			
		

> Well , I'm involved and I'm telling you it's harder to find someone these days that is not juice'n. Maybe some old men on tha Golf course, and they are probley on GH.


 You can't convince the guy of anything. I've been trying to tell him, but he won't listen. 

 Look Leon, you can easily find people on the net and in gyms across the country who are doing gear just to look good. No money involved and yet people still use....

 Now, in pro sports there are literally millions of dollars on the line. You got teams who are willing to spend 100 million just to win some games, you don't think those same teams would encourage steroid use if they thought it would give them an edge? You better wake up and smell the coffee.


----------



## simbh (Apr 3, 2005)

I'll just say what a personnal trainer told me about steroids . She has a bachelors degree in physical activity or however its called in english . She never said to me that she supported steroids but she said this one thing that I never forgot. She told me , that steroids were risky for one reason , because they were illegal and the fact that it was a taboo subject to the society . She told me that if they were legal , there would be plenty of studies on the matter and the correct dosage to have little to no effect on your global mid/long term health would be known.

I'll add to this , that I trully respect guys like LAM . No , not because he's 5 times bigger than me . Even though I wouldn't use a needle , I respect him for actually doing intense research on the subject before using it and knowing what are the appropriate dosage for using safely steroids.


----------



## Leon77 (Apr 3, 2005)

Mikhal said:
			
		

> Well , I'm involved and I'm telling you it's harder to find someone these days that is not juice'n. Maybe some old men on tha Golf course, and they are probley on GH.



everyone  on juice? what the fuck does this mean. since when has every athletic discipline require you to use "juice" as the best option for improved performance - take boxing - john schaffer has commented by saying that of all the supplements available, steroids would be the last thing he would supply to a boxer. He stated that steroids actually detract from the boxer???s ability to fight efficiently for 12 rounds. Steroids will provide a boost for the first 3 or 4 rounds before negatively affecting the fighter???s performance. Steroids are great for the short-term, explosive athletes.


he also added that one problem with many trainers is that they simply do not understand the true science of conditioning. Each athlete is unique, thus requires a unique conditioning and nutritional, supplement program. Many trainers wish to help their athletes, but their actions often come back to hurt them.


----------



## Leon77 (Apr 3, 2005)

simbh said:
			
		

> I'll just say what a personnal trainer told me about steroids . She has a bachelors degree in physical activity or however its called in english . She never said to me that she supported steroids but she said this one thing that I never forgot. She told me , that steroids were risky for one reason , because they were illegal and the fact that it was a taboo subject to the society . She told me that if they were legal , there would be plenty of studies on the matter and the correct dosage to have little to no effect on your global mid/long term health would be known.
> 
> I'll add to this , that I trully respect guys like LAM . No , not because he's 5 times bigger than me . Even though I wouldn't use a needle , I respect him for actually doing intense research on the subject before using it and knowing what are the appropriate dosage for using safely steroids.



sorry but people can suffer all sorts of problems, be it acne, baldness, water retention, gyno, bad cholesterol levels, kidney problems, for every success story from people saying there great you can always find people with bad experiences, which is why you cant say steroid use safe (if not life threatening)for everyone.

also i cant find any studies proving that steroids have no side effects from long term use. and dont just say my uncle jack used them 30yrs with no problems as this holds no substance - someone might smoke for 20years and contract lung cancer from the smoke while some people can smoke into there 70s with no reported problems, but we all know smoking can be harmful to health long term.


----------



## WilliamB (Apr 3, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> i dont know what i am talkin about and u dont know what your talkin about, whats this tough guy talk?


----------



## Mudge (Apr 3, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> He stated that steroids actually detract from the boxer???s ability to fight efficiently for 12 rounds. Steroids will provide a boost for the first 3 or 4 rounds before negatively affecting the fighter???s performance. Steroids are great for the short-term, explosive athletes.



Hey stupid, thats called "nothing to see here, look away people."

Boxers dont take gear? You are talking to one moron. Ever heard of cheque drops? No of course not, because you have no idea what you are talking about.

I want to know what fighters are benching 600 pounds all natural.


----------



## Supermans Daddy (Apr 3, 2005)

> take boxing - john schaffer has commented by saying that of all the supplements available, steroids would be the last thing he would supply to a boxer. He stated that steroids actually detract from the boxer???s ability to fight efficiently for 12 rounds. Steroids will provide a boost for the first 3 or 4 rounds before negatively affecting the fighter???s performance.


    OOHH ! OK I'll listen really close about what fighters do as you might know more about that than me...............NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!! You have just prove'n to me and everybody here that knows me and what I do, That you DO NOT HAVE A FUCK"N CLUE OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.I'm not a Bodybuilder and my knowledge is very limited in that field, however I know pretty much ALL tha whose who in tha fight game and hang out wit a lot of them ALL THA TIME. So when I say damn near everybody is juice'n , I'm not guess'n,read'n reports about it for info and I did'nt studdddddddddder ! A word of advise, You don't know who does what here,nor do you realize who you may be talk'n to.  Just so ya know it goes like this Homey: You can't teach what you don't know, and you can't be what you can't be ! Marinaid on that a bit Playa .You better ask somebody Pimp !


----------



## Supermans Daddy (Apr 3, 2005)

OH yeah, by tha way, you made an ass of yourself !  Peace n Love  Cya on Showtime sucka !


----------



## Leon77 (Apr 3, 2005)

Steroids aren't a big problem in boxing. Most fighters cannot afford to gain any weight. Steroids would only make this more difficult. I've worked with guy who cannot afford to add an ounce of muscle, never mind pumping their body full of juice.


Steroids are a much bigger problem in strength related sports (Ex. power lifting, strong man competitions, football, etc.).

Boxing is a different animal. Strength doesn't mean sh*t if you are not in shape or lack technique. Also, extra strength is useless if you can't make the weigh-in.


----------



## Supermans Daddy (Apr 3, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> Steroids aren't a big problem in boxing. Most fighters cannot afford to gain any weight. Steroids would only make this more difficult. I've worked with guy who cannot afford to add an ounce of muscle, never mind pumping their body full of juice.
> 
> 
> Steroids are a much bigger problem in strength related sports (Ex. power lifting, strong man competitions, football, etc.).
> ...


 Man stop . PLEASE ! I know fly weights ( 108)that are juice'n. Talk bout another sport dude , you don't know shit bout " Tha Game". Your very last paragraph is tha only thing you've said about boxing that makes any sense, but that part ain't hard to figure out.Go to bed.


----------



## Mudge (Apr 3, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> Steroids aren't a big problem in boxing. Most fighters cannot afford to gain any weight.



How do you think powerlifters stay in their weight classes, THEY DONT EAT MORE FOOD. How does a 165 pound guy bench 635 and not gain weight, BY NOT EATING MORE FOOD.

Do I need to say it again?


----------



## Leon77 (Apr 3, 2005)

Mikhal said:
			
		

> Man stop . PLEASE ! I know fly weights ( 108)that are juice'n. Talk bout another sport dude , you don't know shit bout " Tha Game". Your very last paragraph is tha only thing you've said about boxing that makes any sense, but that part ain't hard to figure out.Go to bed.



So what is the benefit of steroids? Steroids cut down on the recovery time necessary between workouts. You can train harder and expect larger muscle gains because of your increased intensity. In boxing however, cellular growth is not the primary objective. Boxers must increase their strength while staying within the confines of their weight class. The boxer must train to increase ligament and tendon strength while initiating a response from a maximum number of motor units. The boxer can thus gain speed, power and explosiveness.

steroids would make a fighter more susceptible to a knockout. Steroids cause an increase in blood flow and blood pressure, while reducing the body???s ability to clot blood. This equates to a fighter that is less able to go the distance and more vulnerable to knock out.

ps i would like to know your background if you have worked with alot of top pros -as i am always open to new advice


----------



## Supermans Daddy (Apr 3, 2005)

> ps i would like to know your background if you have worked with alot of top pros -as i am always open to new advice


  My background tells me you need to quit talk'n bout what you don't know. My advise is, you need to quit talk'n bout what you don't know.


----------



## Mudge (Apr 3, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> steroids would make a fighter more susceptible to a knockout. Steroids cause an increase in blood flow and blood pressure, while reducing the body???s ability to clot blood. This equates to a fighter that is less able to go the distance and more vulnerable to knock out.



Did you read that shit or invent it?

Steroids if anything raise your RBC enough that you can in theory be at risk of a blood CLOT. Blood would be thicker sooner than thinner, which is why some people use aspirin with their cycles.

You are completely, and utterly talking out of your ass yet again.


----------



## P-funk (Apr 3, 2005)

Leon, I don;t get it.  If you don't use steroids and you clearly are misinformed about them and the proper use of them why are you trying to debate with people that use them regularly or have been using them for years and run many cycles?

there is good reason why I don't post anything in this forum......because I have no fucking clue what I am talking about!!!  Why don't you give it up?


----------



## Leon77 (Apr 3, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Did you read that shit or invent it?
> 
> Steroids if anything raise your RBC enough that you can in theory be at risk of a blood CLOT. Blood would be thicker sooner than thinner, which is why some people use aspirin with their cycles.
> 
> You are completely, and utterly talking out of your ass yet again.



your now the "tell all expert" on boxing and combat conditioning who dis-credits peoples studies, research, experienes from the world-class boxing community. how fuck do you know whats best for a pro/ametuer-boxer. 

Just because you have learnt to juice the bodybuilding way to gain more mass and pose about, you now think your a expert in every fucking field on how AAS effects performances in different sport, you aint


----------



## Mudge (Apr 3, 2005)

Who said I'm a bodybuilder? Not I.

Who posted studies? Not you.

Who is a fighter in this forum? Not you, not I, Mikhal.



			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> self proclaimed fitness guru moderating a website.



Find one instance where I claimed to be a "guru," I will tell you in advance you wont find such a statement.



> i will no doubt get a "cocky" barrage of pathetic "you no nothing responses"



No, but we can talk about your horrible communication skills. Again. Did you make it past primary school? Obviously the educational system has failed you.


----------



## Leon77 (Apr 3, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> ill no doubt get a "cocky" barrage of pathetic "you no nothing responses"]



their is no wrong spelling or grammar in that sentence dont the americans know the word "Cocky" or "barrage" ?

i refuse to take your abuse and preaching, your nothing more then a gymrat that learnt to juice the "bodybuilding/strongman way" many years ago, you are not a expert on how AAS steroids effect or can be detrimental  to sporting performance in other athletic events or disciplines, so keep your ill-advised opinions to yourself.


----------



## Mudge (Apr 3, 2005)

Study the differences between your and you're, and know and no.

You are a comedic genius. Keep up the good work


----------



## Supermans Daddy (Apr 3, 2005)

> your now the "tell all expert" on boxing and combat conditioning who dis-credits peoples studies, research, experienes from the world-class boxing community. how fuck do you know whats best for a pro/ametuer-boxer


  Because I'm from that community. My findings did not come from "peoples studies,or research,just as yours did not come from "tha world class boxing community,or experience which mine do. DIRECTLY FROM ! AS to " how tha fuck I know whats best for pro/am boxer and lets even take it a step farther,lets include cage fighter and kickboxers too. Reason is lets just say this I've got more Title belts right now, then you've got fingers on tha hand you used to type tha bullshit you did. I've KOed  world class fighters,trained wit world class fighters,and ametuer champions.Since you chose to base this on experience, how many World titles have you held in ANY sport. I have 4 , and I'm 12 days from make'n that number go to 5 . I'll be Televised world wide, OK your turn, when's your next world title match, how many titles you hold'n, where is your fight gonna be shown. I don't wanna be rude( and I know that I have been) but dude you are full of shit.What we have here is a simple case of " tha truth walks,and bullshit runs tha marathon !" Be a man and just understand that you don't know what you think you do.How many world class fighters you hang out wit that you know well enough to know whats really goin on.Do you think that anyone of us would just start spill'n their guts for you. I post in this section but I don't post about what I might or might not use,shit you could work for tha fuck'n boxing commission.( but I know that you don't because you would be a lot more well versed and smoother than you been). You asked for advise earlier, OK and I'm being serious, If you you would take tha cotton outta your ears and put it in your mouth for a minute you might actually learn some shit so that tha next time you post some stuff you can say that you have got it from people who live it not write about it. Please listen and think bout this as I've stated it before " you can't teach, what you don't know.But if you listen to people who do then you can talk all tha shit in tha world, and nobody can fuck wit cha. Does that make any sense to you?


----------



## Supermans Daddy (Apr 3, 2005)

Just so that you know tha flavor  http://www.mmaathletes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=474  I don't talk about, I am about it !


----------



## Leon77 (Apr 3, 2005)

Mikhal said:
			
		

> Just so that you know tha flavor  http://www.mmaathletes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=474  I don't talk about, I am about it !




like a 5 belt world champion fighter known worldwide is going to come online to discuss his GH and steroid use to the public


----------



## Stallions05 (Apr 3, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> their is no wrong spelling or grammar in that sentence dont the americans know the word "Cocky" or "barrage" ?


 Learn the difference between Their and There as well


----------



## Mudge (Apr 3, 2005)

And they're.


----------



## Supermans Daddy (Apr 3, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> like a 5 belt world champion fighter known worldwide is going to come online to discuss his GH and steroid use to the public


Hey asshole, You ever hear of this thing called a doctor. I never said that I did steroids idiot,I've never tested postive and never will.As amatter of fact tha commission for boxing gives 2 test now one I just passed friday silly rabit. Just because this is a topic that is interesting to me does'nt mean anything other than I enjoy learning and asking questions concerning them, not to mention that your dumbass did'nt figure that even ahtletes are allowed tha same rights as everyone else who has a doctor advising them on HRT and may even suggest that an athlete be put on a program of such. Do you really think that I would not have my ass covered. Like I said you don't have a clue on tha real world of professional sports. You are tha kinda guy who argues wit those who do it and you only talk bout what "you think".Tha commission govering boxing and tha protocal for Football, baseball, basketball ,etc.are totally different and independent of each others rulings.I said that I know for a fact that most guys do. And I never stated that their use was illegal Now you find out tha names Sherlock. I also don't know of a professional athlete that does'nt have a very good and respected Dr. You think we just go out on tha street and wait on tha block for tha steroid dealer to meet us.you figure out the rest. You are too fuck'n stupid to consume anymore of my time. Tha only thing remotely intelligent about you is that fine ass chick at tha bottom of your post. Other than that I declare you " Brain Dead" Oh yeah Fuck what you and your trainers say. Until you understand basic shit like Dr. monitered HRT, just watch from your easy chair.


----------



## Flex (Apr 4, 2005)

whoa!

I think Leon is Johnny!!!


----------



## Flex (Apr 4, 2005)

BTW, go back to the toolshed, Leon.


----------



## gococksDJS (Apr 4, 2005)

Flex said:
			
		

> whoa!
> 
> I think Leon is Johnny!!!


 haha, i agree...


----------



## Tha Don (Apr 4, 2005)

respect to mikhal for putting up with this loser, but TBH i wouldn't bother with him anymore homey, everyone in here knows that he dosen't know jack shit about AS.. or boxing, or bodybuilding, or anything to do with health and fitness!

Leon just fuck off, you're pathetic


----------



## Leon77 (Apr 4, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> AS.. or boxing, or bodybuilding, or anything to do with health and fitness!
> 
> Leon just fuck off, you're pathetic



based on what, i have not disclosed no information regarding anything about me, maybe i have used gear before, maybe i have anabolic 2005 stacked away on the ol bookshelf and about being pathetic do you really think i am dumb ass to believe athletes/actors dont use gear!! i am just fucked these guys are under effective controlled situations from physicians,trainers and knowledgble gurus! - take kelly holmes double gold in athens, 34yr old who had severe leg injuries throughout her career, did you see how she ran the final laps!! not to mention all the previous week heats - Oatmeal and Vitamin E my ass.


----------



## simbh (Apr 4, 2005)

10$ That this thread will be the longest (non journal or sticky thread) thread in the forum


----------



## simbh (Apr 4, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> based on what, i have not disclosed no information regarding anything about me, maybe i have used gear before, maybe i have anabolic 2005 stacked away on the ol bookshelf and about being pathetic do you really think i am dumb ass to believe athletes/actors dont use gear!! i am just fucked these guys are under effective controlled situations from physicians,trainers and knowledgble gurus! - take kelly holmes double gold in athens, 34yr old who had severe leg injuries throughout her career, did you see how she ran the final laps!! not to mention all the previous week heats - Oatmeal and Vitamin E my ass.


Ever heard of pain killers ?


----------



## ihateschoolmt (Apr 4, 2005)

simbh said:
			
		

> 10$ That this thread will be the longest (non journal or sticky thread) thread in the forum


 http://ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=25045 you owe me 10$.


----------



## redspy (Apr 4, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> .....Kelly holmes the british double olympic gold winnner over 800m - 1500m in athens 2004 i can guarantee you is not taking any banned subtances to improve performance while some compeitiors have.





			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> ...take kelly holmes double gold in athens, 34yr old who had severe leg injuries throughout her career, did you see how she ran the final laps!! not to mention all the previous week heats - Oatmeal and Vitamin E my ass.


Is it just me or did you contradict yourself in the same thread?


----------



## gococksDJS (Apr 4, 2005)

He contradicts himself in every post in every thread. His first post is in Mudge's sig about whether or not steroids will boost ze test levels. How are we expected to take a word he says seriously after a post like that. Has he become a steroid guru in the 1 month since joining the forum? You constantly claim to know what your talking about but a mere 3 weeks ago you didn't know what steroids do to your testosterone levels. Leon is a joke.


----------



## redspy (Apr 4, 2005)

His first post is now indexed in Google's search database for all to see.


----------



## gococksDJS (Apr 4, 2005)

redspy said:
			
		

> His first post is now indexed in Google's search database for all to see.


 is it under keyword "moron"


----------



## Leon77 (Apr 4, 2005)

redspy said:
			
		

> Is it just me or did you contradict yourself in the same thread?



yes.. i am not sure what to believe even though shes from down my road and says she clean, but who the hell knows what shes taken when your not with her 24/7


----------



## Celtic Bhoy (Apr 4, 2005)

redspy said:
			
		

> His first post is now indexed in Google's search database for all to see.





Is it wrong to find this lad amusing aswel?


----------



## redspy (Apr 4, 2005)

Celtic Bhoy said:
			
		

> Is it wrong to find this lad amusing aswel?


Hey, it's Monday, we all need a laugh.


----------



## Tha Don (Apr 4, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> yes.. i am not sure what to believe even though shes from down my road and says she clean, but who the hell knows what shes taken when your not with her 24/7



who knows? and who cares?? she won us 2 gold medals!!


----------



## redspy (Apr 4, 2005)

I just wish the English soccer team took steroids, boy do they need them LOL.


----------



## simbh (Apr 4, 2005)

ihateschoolmt said:
			
		

> http://ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=25045 you owe me 10$.


Pfft , I'm sure with leon that this will get to 890 pages


----------



## Tha Don (Apr 4, 2005)

redspy said:
			
		

> I just wish the English soccer team took steroids, boy do they need them LOL.



 they probably do, well Rio Ferdinand missed that drug test a couple of years back, who knows..


----------



## redspy (Apr 4, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> is it under keyword "moron"


No, I think the search syntax was ???Retarded, meat-head, illiterate fuckwit??? +testo +"ze juice" -steroid knowledge


----------



## redspy (Apr 4, 2005)

Oh, you've learned to copy and paste a sample cycle from Anabolicreview.com. Good job! Gold star for this boy!

So tell me, what did you get from 12 weeks use of HGH?

Edit: Where's the footnote for ***?


----------



## CursedOne (Apr 4, 2005)

comedy


----------



## Leon77 (Apr 4, 2005)

fuck this shit i aint a guru or expert and never said i am but i have been on cycles and not the total novice you make out, here was my last cycles, i was helped by people i trusted who know they beans, and they showed me how keep the side effects down how important the exit stratgey was for post recovery-  doing so i kept 21 of the 25 pounds of gains and my bodyfat is at 3%- 157 pounds 5ft 9(dont you think they have friggin gyms in london where this kind o shit goes down) i done with this subject now

ps the stars are under the number 8 on your key board ***

Week 1 to 16: .5mg of arimidex EOD
Week 1 to 12: 300-500ius of HCG every 4th or 5th day***
Week 1 to 5: 50mg of Androl ED
Week 1 to 6: 750mg of Test
Week 1 to 10: 400mg of Deca
Week 7 to 12: 75mg of Fina ED
Week 7 to 12: 100mg of Prop ED
Week 7 to 12: 50mg of Winny ED
Week 13 to 15: Clomd Therapy***



Week 1 to 16: .5mg of Arimidex EOD
Week 1 to 12: 300-500ius of HCG every 4th or 5th day***
Week 1 to 12: 2ius of GH 5 on 2 of
Week 1 to 10: 500mg of Test
Week 1 to 12: 400mg of EQ
Week 7 to 12: 40mg of Oxanadralone
Week 14 to 16: Clomid Therrapy***


----------



## Tha Don (Apr 4, 2005)

redspy said:
			
		

> Oh, you've learned to copy and paste a sample cycle from Anabolicreview.com. Good job! Gold star for this boy!
> 
> So tell me, what did you get from 12 weeks use of HGH?
> 
> Edit: Where's the footnote for ***?


----------



## simbh (Apr 4, 2005)

3% body fat ... RIGHT


----------



## Leon77 (Apr 4, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> they probably do, well Rio Ferdinand missed that drug test a couple of years back, who knows..



must be the effects of steroids


----------



## DDan16 (Apr 4, 2005)

oh my god you are so dumb, your saying that youve done that cycle when before you wanted advice on how to use steroids for a begginer? that doesnt look like any begginers cycle ive seen retard.


----------



## gococksDJS (Apr 4, 2005)

If you have run cycles, why did you ask if gear would raise your test level? Surely you would know that anabolics suppress your HPTA, but the use of HCG stimulates the gonads, so naturally you would know that your overall test levels would be high but natural test levels would be low because your body has no need to produce testosterone due to the exogenous suppply of hormones. Surely someone who has had previous experience with such drugs as anadrol, deca, and a whopping 12 weeks of GH would not have to ask such an elementary question. If you were not lying out of your ass you would especially know that Deca practically drives your HPTA into hibernation and does so quite quickly. You are no doubt a blatant liar. If you truly have run those cycles, you would never have had to post "i need to know what i need to do boost my testo levels i been lifting for 3yrs and if its ze juice what is recomended for da begineer". You are a lying assbag, so why not admit to your lies, at least you will earn a little respect in doing so.


----------



## simbh (Apr 4, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> If you have run cycles, why did you ask if gear would raise your test level? Surely you would know that anabolics suppress your HPTA, but the use of HCG stimulates the gonads, so naturally you would know that your overall test levels would be high but natural test levels would be low because your body has no need to produce testosterone due to the exogenous suppply of hormones. Surely someone who has had previous experience with such drugs as anadrol, deca, and a whopping 12 weeks of GH would not have to ask such an elementary question. If you were not lying out of your ass you would especially know that Deca practically drives your HPTA into hibernation and does so quite quickly. You are no doubt a blatant liar. If you truly have run those cycles, you would never have had to post "i need to know what i need to do boost my testo levels i been lifting for 3yrs and if its ze juice what is recomended for da begineer". You are a lying assbag, so why not admit to your lies, at least you will earn a little respect in doing so.


Lets not forget hes 3% body fat after his cycle *cough*


----------



## Leon77 (Apr 4, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> "i need to know what i need to do boost my testo levels i been lifting for 3yrs and if its ze juice what is recomended for da begineer"                 .



the first ever experience was 10 Weeks 400mg of test then Clomid 

My first proper bulking cycle i did back in 2003

Week 1 to 16: .5mg of arimidex EOD
Week 1 to 12: 300-500ius of HCG every 4th or 5th day*
Week 1 to 6: 30mg of D-bol ED
Week 1 to 10: 600mg of EQ
Week 1 to 10: 750mg of Test
Week 13 to 15: Clomid Therapy*

i have  got 4 cycles under me belt and i was lucky - the only side effect i got was huge boils on me back! aggression levels high - i also managed to keep a good level of the gains, you just have to plan the right exit strategy.


----------



## gococksDJS (Apr 4, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> the first ever experience was 10 Weeks 400mg of test then Clomid
> 
> My first proper bulking cycle i did back in 2003, i was to lean and light but i waited (luckily i got some knowledgble cats around me)
> 
> ...


 you didn't address any of my questions at all. How about you quit being evasive and tell us what the deal was with your first post that is quoted in Mudge's sig despite the fact that you claim you have run several cycles of some strong gear.


----------



## redspy (Apr 4, 2005)

I'll ask my simple question again: Where's the footnote for ***?  What does* ** denote?  Did you forget to copy and paste that bit?


----------



## Tha Don (Apr 5, 2005)

redspy said:
			
		

> I'll ask my simple question again: Where's the footnote for ***?  What does* ** denote?  Did you forget to copy and paste that bit?



^ answer the man


----------



## Tha Don (Apr 5, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> *i have  got 4 cycles under me belt * and i was lucky - the only side effect i got was huge boils on me back! aggression levels high - i also managed to keep a good level of the gains, you just have to plan the right exit strategy,  comparing natural training to training on steroids is like compering a 1992 ford escort to a ferrari but i do have reservations as to continue again this year, i have seen only good results but i dont wana fall flat on my ass with dealing with the negatives- at the moment i feel "if it aint broke dont fix it"



 you just make it up as you go along

please explain this...



			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> i need to know what i need to do boost my testo levels i been lifting for 3yrs and if its ze juice what is recomended for da begineer



ze? testo levels? begineer? do you really not know proper English..? or were you trying to sound like Arnold


----------



## Leon77 (Apr 5, 2005)

i highlighted my HCG therapy for  ze prevention of testicular arophy. 

and My Clomid recovery therapy was 36 pills. 300mg day 1, 100mg next 10, 50mg final 10.

fuck sake i thought zo guys would go figure it being the experts 

ps
**** is under number 8 of your keyboard then enlarge it




oh ya- ich heize von dis der bahnhof - ie do ze bost la test lavuls??


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## simbh (Apr 5, 2005)

and yet you havn't explained this



			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> _i need to know what i need to do boost my testo levels i been lifting for 3yrs and if its ze juice what is recomended for da begineer_


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## westb51 (Apr 5, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> oh ya- ich heize von dis der bahnhof - ie do ze bost la test lavuls??


its the swedish chef


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## westb51 (Apr 5, 2005)

hey leun i cun understund yuoo. i a cheff es vell. Oo.K. Yuoo hefe-a beee oon un evesume-a 4-munt cycle-a ooff Soostunun und Deeunebul. Yuoo???fe-a geeened a messeefe-a 20 lbs, und ere-a ixtremely pleesed veet yuoor resoolts. Yuoo cun???t stup luukeeng in zee murrur. Boot zeere-a is a prublem noo sterteeng tu iet evey et yuoo. Yuoo ere-a gueeng tu roon oooot ooff sterueeds fery suun (yuoo knoo yuoo need a breek unyvey), und yuoor testeecles ere-a zee seeze-a ooff reeesins. Yuoor budy is prudooceeng less testusterune-a thun a 9-yeer-oold gurl, und yuoo ere-a scrembleeng tu feegoore-a oooot vhet tu du tu efueed a nesty pust-cycle-a cresh thet cuoold putenteeelly streep evey sume-a ooff yuoor herd-ierned mooscle-a. Bork Bork Bork!


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## Mudge (Apr 5, 2005)

Leon77 said:
			
		

> i have made excellent gains of strength and lean compact muscle without using steroids





			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> how much does it cost to get all the gear needed for a safe and succesful cycle. i read in a interview a fews years back the pro bodybuilders spend 30K a year





			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> i would like to know from someone who knows there salt, what is used for a safe steroid cycle, how to combat side affects etc and whats needed to recover. i am curious to know and gain better knowledge





			
				Leon77 said:
			
		

> MAYBE i would consider to use myself in few years if i thought it would enhance my overal condition to a new level without giving me health problems, acne, baldness, bloated water retention or gyno etc



You are so full of shit, we need a snowplow. Shovels just wont get the job done.


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## Leon77 (Apr 5, 2005)

ah yes - dont forget my other posts as well  athletes dont take gear one and burppes for maxium pump - thats a good one


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