# liquid creatine??



## Rissole (May 10, 2002)

Hi guy's. I've been taking a micronised monohydrate creatine for about 6 weeks and for the last 2 weeks been takin with glucose seems to help heaps. I have just recently heard about a creatine in liquid or "serum" form. Have any of you tried it?? Is it any good??
Another question. I also take protien & flaxseed oil as my other suppliments do you have any other recomendations for supps that i should take?? ie: a fat burner, ZMA (zinc magnesium aspartate) 
Thanks fellas (and of course you wimin folk if you have 2 bobs worth to put in)


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## kuso (May 11, 2002)

Creatine Serum 
Separating Fantasy From Reality 

Over the past couple of years, and more so this last year, a company called Muscle Marketing has been selling a product called Creatine Serum. It's a liquid creatine supplement that they claim is 100% stable and far more effective than creatine powder. I first ignored the product and wrongly assumed that everyone knew creatine in a liquid degrades rapidly. I never really gave it more than a glance. Well as this company started advertising heavily and more and more retail stores and gyms began carrying the product, I gave it closer scrutiny. And when I did I couldn't believe what I was seeing. 

Creatine Serum is a liquid creatine supplement (Well it's marketed and sold as a creatine supplement.) sold in a uniquely shaped red plastic dropper bottle. It comes in many flavors and now in varying formulations. If you take a look at how Creatine Serum is marketed it's pretty easy to see what this company is doing. They are playing on all the inconveniences and misconceptions of powder creatine and claiming that their Creatine Serum is not only free of side effects (that don't exist with powder creatine in the first place), but also that it's more effective. They also claimed to have defied science and made creatine stable in a liquid for 2 years. This is their attempt to discredit creatine powder in order to generate greater sales of their liquid product. Typical sports nutrition marketing, but they go about in a very misleading and deceptive manner. 

They have a chart on their bottle that lists the positives of the Creatine Serum verses the negatives (according to them) of the powder. 

Let's see if we can clear through some of the hype and get to the facts so you can decide if you should spend your hard earned money on this supplement as this company is trying so hard to persuade you to do. 

Here's what they claim for the Creatine Serum and here are the facts. 

Claim 
Serum: No loading: take just minutes before exercise. 
Powder: Loading required: must be taken in large amounts for 5 days prior to exercise. 
Supports For Their Claim 
None - No scientific studies or data backs up their claim that there is no need to load with Creatine Serum. In other words, they made this up to convince you to buy it. 
Fact 
You don't have to load with any creatine. It's not mandatory. However, scientific studies show that you can achieve maximum muscle creatine saturation in 5 days through a 5 gram - 4 times a day protocol. Scientific studies also show you can achieve muscle creatine saturation by taking 3 grams once a day for 30 days. Each way has its advantages and disadvantages. 

So their claim that there is no need to load with the serum verses a need to load with powdered creatine is completely misleading and void of the physiological facts involving the body's utilization of creatine. If you want to achieve muscle creatine saturation in the same amount of time you will have to go through the loading phase with the serum just as you do with the powder. It's that simple. It does not matter if it's in a liquid form or not. Your body utilizes it the same way. 

For this company to insinuate that their creatine somehow acts differently in the body than creatine powder is pure wishful thinking on their part. Or attempted deception on their part. I guess it depends on how you look at it. They're either deceiving you or they're just totally inept and actually believe what they are saying. 

A simple "show me the science" will leave you and them empty handed. 

Claim 
Serum: No maintenance: take only on training days 
Powder: Daily maintenance: must be taken even on non-training days. 
Supports For Their Claim 
None - No scientific studies show that their creatine serum does not need to be taken on days you don't train. They also made this up to convince you to buy it. Why wouldn't you need to take it on non-training days? 
Fact 
They are trying to convince you that just because it's a liquid there is no need to take it on days you don't train, but you must take the powder on days you don't train to achieve the same results. Again this is another very misleading statement. And it's simply not true. Creatine will saturate your muscle cells whether you train or not. Taking the creatine serum on training days and not on non training days would act exactly the same as taking powdered creatine on training days and not on non training days. Because the Creatine Serum is in a liquid form does not add any special ability to the creatine that would enable you to only have to take it on training days. If you want a continual creatine supply to the muscles you will need to take it every day. The liquid medium does not change this. 

By making this claim they are trying to mislead you into thinking that their product is superior when no evidence even comes close to suggesting this. In fact, the science indicates the exact opposite due to creatine's rapid degradation in a liquid medium. 

Claim 
Serum: Instant absorption. 
Powder: Takes one hour or more to digest. 
Supports For Their Claim 
None - No scientific studies show that their creatine serum is absorbed instantly or any faster than powdered creatine. Again, they made this claim up too. 
Fact 
Just because it's a liquid does not mean your body does not have to digest it. That's absurd. In fact, there is no evidence and certainly no scientific study showing that this creatine serum is absorbed, enters the bloodstream, or saturates muscle tissue any faster than powdered creatine. 
Claim 
Serum: Completely assimilated into the muscles in minutes. 
Powder: 50% wasted during the digestion process. 
Supports For Their Claim 
None - No scientific studies show that their creatine serum is assimilated into the muscles in minutes and no science shows that creatine powder is 50% wasted in the digestion process. In other words, this has no truth backing it whatsoever. 
Fact 
It is physiologically impossible for this creatine serum to be "Completely assimilated into the muscles in minutes". That would be nice, but even an intravenous injection would not enable this to happen. And nowhere in the scientific research is there any indication that 50% of powdered creatine is wasted during digestion. They just made this one up as well. Like all the other claims so far, they completely made it up with no means or scientific data to back it up. None. 
Claim 
Serum: 100% stable: 2 year shelf life. 
Powder: Unstable: rapidly degrades into waste product creatinine. 

Supports For Their Claim 
None - No scientific studies show that their creatine serum is stable at all much less that it has a 2 year shelf life. There are specific FDA protocols that are used to establish "shelf life" and I am not aware of any stability testing done on this product. 
Fact 
All of our analytical test showed that Creatine Serum contains high levels of creatinine. In fact the creatinine levels were as much as 600% greater than the creatine levels. I can only conclude through the analytical testing that Creatine Serum is highly unstable. The scientific and chemical reference books are correct and Creatine Serum degrades as quickly as any creatine would that is put into a liquid. 
Claim 
Serum: Does not cause water retention, bloating or cramping. 
Powder: Causes water retention resulting in dehydration, bloating and cramping. 
Supports For Their Claim 
None - No scientific studies indicate that Creatine Serum works any differently than creatine powder. In fact, it's physiologically impossible and to suggest that it does is completely untrue. 
Fact 
Creatine in a liquid, if it remained stable (all lab analysis shows that creatine degrades into creatinine in solution), would act no differently in the body than creatine in a powder form. Their own statement about powder creatine, "Causes water retention resulting in dehydration, bloating and cramping.", is incorrect, contradictory, and misleading. If creatine causes water retention then how can it cause dehydration? And we are back to the fact that the creatine molecule is the same whether it's in a liquid medium or a powder, so it will impart the same physiological effect either way. 

Because creatine is in a liquid does not mean it will function any differently. Also, the negatives listed on their bottle for powder creatine are simply not true and have no scientific validity. 

That's like saying, "Muscle turns to fat, but if you take my product muscle will not turn to fat." If it's physiologically impossible for muscle to turn into fat in the first place how is taking my product going to stop something that would never happen? Call this what you want, but I call it a blatant misleading statement designed to sell you on a product by giving it virtues that don't exist. 
Claim 
Serum: Stay with your normal water intake. 
Powder: Must consume extra water to counteract dehydration. 
Supports For Their Claim 
None - No scientific studies indicate that Creatine Serum works any differently (if at all) than powdered creatine. No studies suggest you need to consume any less water with Creatine Serum than with powdered creatine. They made this one up too. 
Fact 
Creatine imparts a portion of its benefit by its ability to hyper-hydrate the muscle cell. You consume extra water while taking creatine to assist this hyper-hydration. You don't drink extra water to prevent dehydration because of the creatine. As I said before, the creatine molecule is the same regardless of what medium it is delivered in. If you could maintain a stable creatine solution then its physiological effect on the body would be no different than creatine in a powder form. So to take full advantage of a "liquid" creatine you would need extra fluid to assist the creatine's effect on hydrating the muscle cell. 

If creatine caused dehydration it would cause this whether it was in a powder form or liquid form. It would not be because of the powder. It would be because of creatine's physiological effect on the body. But there is no scientific evidence indicating that creatine causes dehydration. 

They are trying to instill some magic quality to Creatine Serum and at the same time bucking the physiological effects creatine, in any form, has on muscle hydration. It's like saying, "Fertilize your lawn with this 'special' fertilizer and you won't have to water your lawn in the summer time like you do with the other fertilizers". Grass needs water in the summer regardless of the type of fertilizer and when taking creatine your body needs fluid to provide the extra hydration (not to counteract dehydration) to the muscle cells no matter what type of creatine it is. 

The Science 
A quick look in the Merck Index (The bible in the scientific community for all chemical monographs.) clearly tells you the following: 

"1 gram of creatine dissolves in 75 milliliters of water" and "in aqueous solution creatinine is formed, and aqueous and alkaline solutions contain an equilibrium mixture of creatinine and creatine, while in acid solutions the formation of creatinine is complete" 

In other words, you can only dissolve 2 grams of creatine in each bottle of Creatine Serum and that creatine will partially or fully degrade into creatinine depending on the pH of the liquid it's dissolved in. 

This is no surprise and is common knowledge to anyone with just the slightest understanding of chemistry and our testing proved this to be exactly the case. Every bottle we tested had less than 1 gram of creatine in the entire bottle. 

In fact, if they attempted to put the amount of creatine they claim is in each bottle it certainly would not dissolve and would have a consistency of a very thick paste or mud. You wouldn't use a dropper to administer a serving you would use a fork. 

They also claim that Creatine Serum is 100% stable and remains that way for 2 years. By this they mean that the creatine does not degrade into creatinine in the liquid. The analytical tests revealed just the opposite. Each bottle contained more creatinine than creatine and according to expiration dates on the bottles tested none were more than a couple of months old. 

Conclusion 
Their promotional statements are misleading, incorrect and factually and educationally void of any scientific validity. As I read the side of this bottle I'm left to wonder how they can legally and morally sell this product with the claims they are making. Their entire promotion of this product is based on absolutely no scientific substantiation whatsoever. Not even a backyard study. 

Even on their web site they are quick to cite scientific studies extolling the positive effects of creatine, but the peculiar thing is the studies that they so quickly reference are studies done using powdered creatine and not Creatine Serum. Imagine that, they use the science from the very creatine powder they say is no good in the promotion of their liquid creatine. 

As one of my colleagues said, they took every negative ever unjustifiably associated with creatine and said because theirs is in a liquid it will not cause any of them. And by doing this, not only are they obviously ignorant of the scientific research on creatine, but they are making up imaginary benefits for the Creatine Serum that solidifies their total lack of knowledge. 

When it comes to analyzing the Creatine Serum the tests speak for themselves. Less than 1 gram of creatine is in each bottle of Creatine Serum. This actually blows me away. The fact that they make such phenomenal claims about their product and yet there is less than 1% of the amount of creatine that their label says there is. 

As with many companies in this industry, this one is no different. They are all after a piece of the pie. The bigger the piece they can get, the more money they'll make. And as you can see they'll stop at nothing to sell their products. 

There are consumer protection laws in this country to help guard the consumer from such fraud. Just this week a company known for selling two weight loss products, "Fat Trapper" and "Exercise in a Bottle", through late night and weekend infomercials was fined 10 million dollars for misleading hundreds of thousands of consumers with the promotion of their products. In the case of Creatine Serum I don't see any difference. A lie is a lie, and the law says you cannot lie to sell your products. The only reason companies like this one have yet to face the same type of penalties is because our government simply does not have the resources to prosecute all of them. But in due time their fraudulent behavior will catch up to them. In the meantime, don't be sucked in to the hype.

 And a little more........... 

Creatine Serum Test Results 



Contrary to the claims made about Creatine Serum, it's a scientific fact that creatine in a liquid is highly unstable. It will rapidly degrade to waste product creatinine which is completely worthless in the human body. 

Muscle Marketing has been selling Creatine Serum for a couple of years now claiming that it is 100% stable and more effective than creatine powder. Through their large advertising campaign they have gained massive distribution and have generated millions of dollars in sales. 

Because their claims ran out of bounds of the scientific literature we decided to test their Creatine Serum for amount of creatine and amount of creatinine. According to their label there should be 500 milligrams of creatine per millimeter and 0 milligrams of creatinine. 

Here are the results through HPLC testing: 



Creatine Serum Test Results 
Click the links below to see the actual test. 


Test 1 - Test 2 - Test 3 

Component .............Label Claim........... Actual Contents 

Test 1 Lot #: 9179 
Creatine.................500 mg. / ml.............5.5 mg. / ml 
Creatinineõ.............0 mg. / ml .............12.1 mg. / ml 

Test 2 Lot #: 8822 
Creatine.................500 mg. / ml.............2.1 mg. / ml 
Creatinineõ.............0 mg. / ml.............11.7 mg. / ml 

Test 3 Lot #: 8823 
Creatine.................500 mg. / ml.............2.7 mg. / ml 
Creatinineõ.............0 mg. / ml.............13.9 mg. / ml 

õ Creatinine is waste byproduct of creatine degradation. 


An entire bottle of Creatine Serum contains less than 1 gram of creatine. I have to admit I didn't think the tests would come back this bad. Less than 1 gram in the entire bottle. You would have to drink 6 full bottles a day just to get 5 grams of creatine. 6 bottles a day! But this would pose another nasty problem. The creatinine (creatinine is the result of creatine catabolism or breakdown) levels are as much as 600% higher than the creatine levels. 

As for the stability issue, like I said and like the scientific literature clearly indicates, creatine in a liquid medium will degrade into the useless byproduct creatinine. And the tests show this to be true. Creatine Serum has over 5 times the amount of creatinine as it does creatine. So much for their 100% stability claim.


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## lina (May 11, 2002)

Great article Kuso! I took their creatine serum too.  It was just overpriced, no make that grossly overpriced grape syrup in a fancy bottle!  Don't waste your money.  I didn't see any difference and switched to micronized powder instead.


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## kuso (May 11, 2002)

Thanks, I`m quite good at....................cut and paste


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## Sub-Zero (May 11, 2002)

They are thinking of renaming Creatine Serum to just 'Serum'

Cos theres NO F*CKIN CREATINE IN IT !!


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## Rissole (May 11, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> Creatine Serum
> Separating Fantasy From Reality


thanx Kuso that was a doozie read saved a few bucks there eh!!
What about the other half of my question though?
"I also take protien & flaxseed oil as my other suppliments do you have any other recomendations for supps that i should take?? ie: a fat burner, ZMA (zinc magnesium aspartate) "


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## Arnold (May 12, 2002)

I use micronized creatine, never even thought about using that liquid shit.


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## gr8one (May 14, 2002)

liquid creatine? sucks!


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## gopro (May 14, 2002)

Hold on a minute...there is a good liquid creatine out there called DIMAXX. It has been tested and is legit. I have used it and it works very well. I know many powerlifters that buy tons of the stuff. Is it better than powdered...not necessarily...but it is good stuff!


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## BPB (May 15, 2002)

*DIMAXXX*



> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Hold on a minute...there is a good liquid creatine out there called DIMAXX. It has been tested and is legit. I have used it and it works very well. I know many powerlifters that buy tons of the stuff. Is it better than powdered...not necessarily...but it is good stuff!




DP or anyone else ever use this or heard of the quality of this product??


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## stam (May 15, 2002)

hmmm... i think liquid creatine are crap!


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## BPB (May 15, 2002)

me too... but there are always new products coming out and we have to get some testing or feedback on them before we judge them all


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## gopro (May 15, 2002)

*Re: DIMAXXX*



> _*Originally posted by BPB *_
> 
> 
> 
> DP or anyone else ever use this or heard of the quality of this product??



Because of the business I'm in I deal with several large companies that deal in supplement sales. One of the hottest creatines, with one of the best "return sales" has been DIMAXX for over a year now. Even before it was ever advertised it was selling big!


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## BPB (May 15, 2002)

Not doubting you, but I own a supplement store and we had a lot of repeat customers wanting the MM liquid crap too but that doesn't mean it's any good. I was just looking for some others that may have any feedback. If I find out that it is legit I may consider selling it. As of now, I no longer sell any liquid creatines because I don't believe in them


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## kuso (May 15, 2002)

The last I heard NO ONE had come up with a way of keeping it stable in liquid for more than about a week.


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## Dr. Pain (May 15, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by BPB *_
> Not doubting you, but I own a supplement store and we had a lot of repeat customers wanting the MM liquid crap too but that doesn't mean it's any good. I was just looking for some others that may have any feedback. If I find out that it is legit I may consider selling it. As of now, I no longer sell any liquid creatines because I don't believe in them




BPB, you've known my feelings on it for over a year! My collegues at SKW Labs (Creapure) say that CM CAN NOT be stabilized in any substance other than oil!  Their actual quote was, "If it can be done, we'd be doing it!"

SoCal tried, Optimum tired it, both had to add MSM  to mask the smell of the methionine ( creatine is gylcine, arginine and methionine, chemically converted) masked with another sulphur like odor.

However, I am not familiar with the product that GP is talking about, and while I'd like to keep and open mind, my belief is that those using liquids, more than likely are having an idiosyncratic response!

DP


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## BPB (May 15, 2002)

I know, i know..I was just trying to find some excuse to buy it. I most likely wouldn't sell it, or would be able to sell it,  after I tell everyone that asks for it that it is crap and kindly hand them the report on the MM liquid


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## gopro (May 16, 2002)

The MM liquid IS CRAP...I completely agree...but I have used DIMAXX, and am skeptical about EVERY supplement until I try ot myself, and usually on a few clients. The DIMAXX most definitely had a positive effect on strength levels. I am not subject to a placebo effect either. DIMAXX does work!


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## kuso (May 16, 2002)

gopro, do you have the results of the tests you mentioned above.....I`d be interested to see them


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## gopro (May 16, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> gopro, do you have the results of the tests you mentioned above.....I`d be interested to see them



Sorry, wish I did...I will try to locate them for you though!


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## kuso (May 16, 2002)

Thanks


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## Xeldrine (May 27, 2002)

Liquid Creatine?? Well, not much to say expect the some of those sprays are just scams, but Creatine Serum is not.


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## kuso (May 27, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Xeldrine *_
> Liquid Creatine?? Well, not much to say expect the some of those sprays are just scams, but Creatine Serum is not.



Creatine Serum is not a scam????  I`m kinda wondering if you read the rest of this thread before posting this???!!!


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## Xeldrine (May 28, 2002)

I said the sprays are scams, not the Serum, read carefully first before typing.................


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## kuso (May 28, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Xeldrine *_
> I said the sprays are scams, not the Serum, read carefully first before typing.................



I think you may want to go and read my previous post before you start typing bud!


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## Fade (May 28, 2002)

So the Serum is good??


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## kuso (May 28, 2002)

The best  

I think I smell something bad.....I`m outta here


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## Fade (May 28, 2002)

Hey...I wiped.


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## Xeldrine (May 29, 2002)

oh i did read.... I said the serum is not a scam!!!!!!!!!!


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## Xeldrine (May 29, 2002)

stupid ppl....


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## kuso (May 29, 2002)

Lets have a short recap of this coversation shall we????? And I`ll try my hardest to be nice about it!



> _*Originally posted by Xeldrine *_
> Liquid Creatine?? Well, not much to say expect the some of those sprays are just scams, but Creatine Serum is not.





> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> Creatine Serum is not a scam????  I`m kinda wondering if you read the rest of this thread before posting this???!!!






> _*Originally posted by Xeldrine *_
> I said the sprays are scams, not the Serum, read carefully first before typing.................





> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> I think you may want to go and read my previous post before you start typing bud!






> _*Originally posted by Xeldrine *_
> oh i did read.... I said the serum is not a scam!!!!!!!!!!





> _*Originally posted by Xeldrine *_
> stupid ppl....



Now, once again I am forced to ask....DID YOU READ ANY OF THE POSTS ABOVE BEFORE OFFERING THIS LITTLE BIT OF INFORMATION, or was it just bs so you could see the pix?

You are saying that serum is not a scam and calling me stupid?? I guess you also put on 30lb of lean mass after the loading faze of Cell-tech too right?? 

 !!!!


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## Xeldrine (May 29, 2002)

Well, I have 30 now.. To be honest a lil of both, but most of the info I put wasn't bs! It was from experience....... I've only looked at the pix twice. The main thing I do on here is read what others have to say & learn more. So??***


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## Fade (May 29, 2002)

Over the years I've taken bogus supps and I've gained a little off some. When the news came out that the supp was bogus I thought "No way I gained off that stuff." It was all in my head. I gained because I thought it would work. The mental part of working out can make a difference in your progression.


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## J'Bo (Jul 17, 2002)

This is quite the thread here.
I LMAO for about an hour.
I know the SERUM by MM is crap, because i can read.
Thanks for the info. Kuso, its always nice to get legit material to work with. As for the dude, whats up?
LOL


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## gopro (Jul 18, 2002)

Just to reiterate...not ALL liquid creatines are crap, but yes, The Serum is!


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## rks1969 (Jul 18, 2002)

that serum is absolute crap & 100% profit for the people selling it.
can't possibly be anything in those bottles but a little kool aid.


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## 5abi (Jul 19, 2002)

is DIMAXX available in canada???
the guy at gnc also said that he has lots of return customers bout the serum, and thats the only reason he stocks it, cause the litrature he has read is all anti-serum


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## gopro (Jul 19, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by 5abi *_
> is DIMAXX available in canada???
> the guy at gnc also said that he has lots of return customers bout the serum, and thats the only reason he stocks it, cause the litrature he has read is all anti-serum



Not sure whether Dimaxx is available in Canada...they are funny over there about certain products!


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## LAM (Jul 19, 2002)

gopro..just wondering, who did the testing on the DIMAXX  product ?  if it was not a independent testing lab the results are not credible...


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## gopro (Jul 21, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by LAM *_
> gopro..just wondering, who did the testing on the DIMAXX  product ?  if it was not a independent testing lab the results are not credible...



I fully agree. The testing was done by Europa Sports Products some time last year. I don't have a copy. I have field tested the product and have used it myself...it works very well. Some felt it worked better than powdered creatine, while others said it worked just the same. To me, it is simply another choice in creatine usage.


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## crackerjack414 (Jul 26, 2002)

I have also heard extremely good things about dimaxx. It is supposed to be the best stuff around. It isn't very popular yet though. I beleive it is german though.


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## gopro (Jul 27, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by crackerjack414 *_
> I have also heard extremely good things about dimaxx. It is supposed to be the best stuff around. It isn't very popular yet though. I beleive it is german though.



It is from Germany, but was very limited in its distribution for awhile as it is a small company. It is very sought after and is beginning to gain more mainstream popularity now.


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## riniguez (Mar 21, 2005)

Liqiud Creatine isnt really designed for Body Builders it's orignal intention was for runners because it quickly asimulates into your system
Typically we use CEX or Cell tech


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