# Help please!!!



## jbish8 (Jun 13, 2009)

Hello everyone,
I'm another new member with some more old questions I'm guessing, but I did read through the stickies and just need some help with some specifics. Sorry if these questions have already been answered somewhere else and feel free to refer me to earlier posts that could help. So here's my background and stats. I am a 32 year old male. I am 5'9.5 (gotta give me every fraction I can get), 163.5 and approx. 6-7% BF. I've always been in relatively good shape, I would guess the highest my bodyfat% has ever been is around 15% and the most I ever weighed was 180 (I have pics. of this but haven't figured out how to post them yet). I've always lifted (since 18 years old) but never really watched my diet (OK I actually ate anything and everything put in front of me). A couple of years ago this started to catch up to me. I bought Tom Venutos book BFFM and incorporated his program into my life. Within around 4 months I was able to get down to 156 from the 180 and around 5-6% BF (again I have pics). This was about a year and a half ago. I set a new goal of weighing 170 and 6% BF, so I started bulking, at first slowly but I had to continue to up my calorie intake just to keep gaining weight, some days eating as many as 4500 to 5000 cals (keep in mind my lean mass is around the low 150's so this seemed like too much). This became very hard as I was still eating very clean. My macro ratios were always P 30-35/ C 50/ F 15-20. I finally made it to 170 but my BF was around 9% so I went into a cut again and by the time I was 6% I was back down to 161. This time I decided to go really slow on my bulk and and try to maintain my BF better. It took me 4 months just to gain 6 lbs. and monitoring my diet obssesivley (167) but my BF  was about 7.5-8, so I cut again using Tom's carb cycling method described in BFFM which brings me to where I am now at 163.5 and between 6-7% BF. Sooooo, here are my questions.

1. What is the best macro ratio for bulking at a slow rate (1/4 lb per week) to keep BF down?
2. Am I doing something wrong on my cuts to be losing so much lean mass each time (I try to only lose 1LB per week and have tried the carb cycling)?
3. Would I be a good canidate for UD 2.0 even though my BF is already somewhat low (I understand he recomends 15% BF)?
4. This one should probly' be in the training section but here goes anyways. I have tried to incorporate a 5x5 scheme into my workout at 85% of my 1RM (heard this was most effective for building) but this always seems to hurt my joints after (sometimes during), especially my elbow during weighted pull-ups. I've always done reps between 8-12 but would like to start going heavier. Any suggestions on how to start working heavy weights in?

Thanks in advance, and sorry if this is annoying.


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## jbish8 (Jun 13, 2009)

*I think I figured the pictures out.*

Here's me 2 years ago at 180 and 14% BF (I'm guessing on my BF. I wasn't testing at the time).








This was after my first cut. I was 156 and around 5%.








.
This was after my first bulk then cut at 161 and around 6%.





.
This is about 2 months ago at about 165 and 7%.




Hope that helps. Any input is greatly appreciated.


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## Built (Jun 13, 2009)

Dude! You look HOT!

Um, what was the question? <drools>


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## Built (Jun 13, 2009)

jbish8 said:


> 1. What is the best macro ratio for bulking at a slow rate (1/4 lb per week) to keep BF down?


It really won't matter, just try to not gain too fast and you're fine. You are VERY lean, which is really fortunate. I'd personally aim to gain about a pound a week if I were you. Adjust your calories accordingly, but ditch the ratio approach. Your body cannot do math, and quite honestly, you may find you gain better if you up your fats - you need those to support testosterone production. Aim to get in about half a gram of fat per pound LBM, or more if you like. About a third each from poly, mono and unsaturated, and about 10g of fish oil to enhance partitioning. Creatine, of course is also a good one. 


jbish8 said:


> 2. Am I doing something wrong on my cuts to be losing so much lean mass each time (I try to only lose 1LB per week and have tried the carb cycling)?


You're likely doing too much cardio, and perhaps training with too much volume. You seriously look great though - this is an easy thing to fix. 


jbish8 said:


> 3. Would I be a good canidate for UD 2.0 even though my BF is already somewhat low (I understand he recomends 15% BF)?



He recommends 15% as a MAX. UD2.0 you could use for a slow bulk right now if you wished. You are the ideal UD2.0 candidate for a cut OR a bulk at this stage. 


jbish8 said:


> 4. This one should probly' be in the training section but here goes anyways. I have tried to incorporate a 5x5 scheme into my workout at 85% of my 1RM (heard this was most effective for building) but this always seems to hurt my joints after (sometimes during), especially my elbow during weighted pull-ups. I've always done reps between 8-12 but would like to start going heavier. Any suggestions on how to start working heavy weights in?
> 
> Thanks in advance, and sorry if this is annoying.



Have a read at the split I wrote - it's on my blog Got Built? » Open Source Fitness - Get started here

Scroll down and click on "Baby Got Back". 

Now, I've been a good little mod. I think I deserve a shot of the wheels...


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## Kevsworld (Jun 14, 2009)

1-2.  My advice would be to experiment with your carb intake.  You may be better off getting more of your calories from fats vs carbs.  Ketogenic diets can have a protein sparing effect (when you decide to cut).  Check out my blog for a review of Lyle McDonald's _The Ketogenic Diet. _ 

4.  If weighted pull-ups hurt your elbow, I'd just try an alternate exercise.


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## nkira (Jun 14, 2009)

Nice physique........I mean REALLY nice.

Looking ripped!

Getting built to <drool> is really not easy....yanno,


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## Built (Jun 14, 2009)

Actually, that can depend if I'm ovulating or not.


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## est doll (Jun 14, 2009)

MA,you crack me up!

LMAO!


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## jbish8 (Jun 14, 2009)

Thanks for the kind words Built.
<blushes, then lifts jaw after seeing avatar>.
That is a crazy set of abs!! What is your BF in that shot?

Thanks a ton for the advice, and thanks for the blog link. It is AWESOME!!! I know where I'll be spending my spare time for the next couple of weeks. It's really refreshing to see someone willing to take the time to not only document what they've learned but then share it just to help people out. Thanks again. Now if I could just get my lips off your butt, I've got a couple of follow up questions.

1. So I don't actually do any cardio specificaly, but I do Mountain bike a couple times a week (more Intermitent cardio cause it has downhill mixed in), and play volleyball a couple times per week. I keep track of how many calories I burn while doing this so that I can make sure to eat enough to either gain or cut at the right speed. Should I still eat the same macro ratios to make up these burnt calories, cause like I said sometimes it ends up being 5000 cals per day which puts my fats at 115 (well over .5 per LBM) or does it even matter.

2. I don't mean to question you, but I've always heard that the most lean mass an average male can gain is 1/4-1/2 LB per week. I would LOVE to Gain 1lb per week, but wouldn't the excess just be fat?

3. I am taking creatine, but I don't mess with the "load phase" and just take 10 grams 1/2 hour before my workout. Any changes you would make to this?

4. Your baby got back workout looks fun, and I'm gonna try it after I get done with this "explosion workout" I'm doing to try to increase my vertical, but do you have any suggestions on how to work into the heavy 5x5, or can the scheme be changed to start with the lighter weights and end with the 5x5 and still be effective?

5. What is the best source to get that kind of split you suggested on the fats.
I am taking udo's oil 3x6x9 but I'm not sure if I'm getting all those different kinds.

6. Last one. Sorry. So does the UD2.0 have a diet recommendation for bulk.
I kind of got lost since the BFFM only talks about how to cut.

You probly' have all this on your blog, so it may not matter in a while. As far as the pictures of my "wheels" I'll have to work on that one. I went through my pictures and realized I'm wearing board shorts in everything so I'll have to spend some time with a shaver (where do I start, or end for that matter), and take some new ones . Thanks again.


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## jbish8 (Jun 14, 2009)

> Nice physique........I mean REALLY nice.


Thanks alot nkira!!


> 1-2. My advice would be to experiment with your carb intake. You may be better off getting more of your calories from fats vs carbs. Ketogenic diets can have a protein sparing effect (when you decide to cut). Check out my blog for a review of Lyle McDonald's The Ketogenic Diet.
> 
> 4. If weighted pull-ups hurt your elbow, I'd just try an alternate exercise.


Thanks for the help Kev. I was afraid you would say stop doing it, but it definetly makes sense. I love pull-ups though so I'll just have to ease into the weighted ones.


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## DIVINITUS (Jun 14, 2009)

I have to be honest, obviously you're in sick shape...just nasty, but have you thought about not cutting once you reach 9%?  Maybe it's because I haven't been that lean in 10 years, but why not keep bulking back up to say the 14% you thought you were in the first pics?  You still look really good, trying not to go all "Built" on you, but I'm sure women would find still find you plenty attractive as you were in the first two pics and you were probably much stronger too.  Judging by how you look now, I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to try but maybe bulking for a longer period of time would help.


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## jbish8 (Jun 14, 2009)

> I have to be honest, obviously you're in sick shape...just nasty, but have you thought about not cutting once you reach 9%? Maybe it's because I haven't been that lean in 10 years, but why not keep bulking back up to say the 14% you thought you were in the first pics? You still look really good, trying not to go all "Built" on you, but I'm sure women would find still find you plenty attractive as you were in the first two pics and you were probably much stronger too. Judging by how you look now, I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to try but maybe bulking for a longer period of time would help.


Thanks for the honesty, and the compliments. 
Trust me, I've thought about bulking longer, but ultimatley it doesn't mean I would keep that muscle once I cut again. The first cut I did I probly' lost 1/3 of the weight in LBM. Who knows though, maybe it would make a difference but I really like the way I feel at this BF, and not because of the "looking good for women theory". Don't get me wrong, I'd be lying if I said it doesn't make me feel good and keep me motivated to hear people say I'm doing good, especially people like Built who obviously knows what it takes, but my real goals are to stay as fit as possible to be able to enjoy my current lifestyle and try to reach 170 (which I think would be my ideal weight) and maintain my current BF. I feel a little too small at my current state and you're right that I've lost some strength but if there is a way to bulk and not have to go over 10% than thats what I would like to do. That also brings up another controversial issue between some buddies of mine. They say It's not healthy to try and maintain a bodyfat of 6-8%, but it sure feels healthy.
Any thoughts?


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## Built (Jun 14, 2009)

jbish8 said:


> Thanks for the kind words Built.
> <blushes, then lifts jaw after seeing avatar>.
> That is a crazy set of abs!! What is your BF in that shot?


Thanks! Glad you like the blog. Oh and the abs.   I am 14% bodyfat in that shot, confirmed by DEXA. Sadly, the legs were still juicy. Working on that this cut. 


jbish8 said:


> Thanks a ton for the advice, and thanks for the blog link. It is AWESOME!!! I know where I'll be spending my spare time for the next couple of weeks. It's really refreshing to see someone willing to take the time to not only document what they've learned but then share it just to help people out. Thanks again. Now if I could just get my lips off your butt, I've got a couple of follow up questions.
> 
> 1. So I don't actually do any cardio specifically, but I do Mountain bike a couple times a week (more Intermittent cardio cause it has downhill mixed in), and play volleyball a couple times per week. I keep track of how many calories I burn while doing this so that I can make sure to eat enough to either gain or cut at the right speed. Should I still eat the same macro ratios to make up these burnt calories, cause like I said sometimes it ends up being 5000 cals per day which puts my fats at 115 (well over .5 per LBM) or does it even matter.


It doesn't matter. As long as you get the calories in, you're golden. 0.5g/lb LBM is a minimum for fat. I routinely go much higher than this, personally. In my happy place, fats are about a gram per pound LBM. Mmmm... fat. <drool>


jbish8 said:


> 2. I don't mean to question you, but I've always heard that the most lean mass an average male can gain is 1/4-1/2 LB per week. I would LOVE to Gain 1lb per week, but wouldn't the excess just be fat?


You're right, and yes, it will be fat. You won't gain much muscle unless you gain SOME fat with it, that's the sad truth. You're so lean, you can handle it though. If you don't gain too much fat, you'll partition well and you won't have that much to cut once you switch gears. I can appreciate not wanting to get too juicy along the way though - fewer wardrobe changes. 


jbish8 said:


> 3. I am taking creatine, but I don't mess with the "load phase" and just take 10 grams 1/2 hour before my workout. Any changes you would make to this?


Nah. You could try five before and five after, get some fast carb in with it. This helps enhance glucose uptake anyway, which is helpful while bulking or carbing up. 



jbish8 said:


> 4. Your baby got back workout looks fun, and I'm gonna try it after I get done with this "explosion workout" I'm doing to try to increase my vertical, but do you have any suggestions on how to work into the heavy 5x5, or can the scheme be changed to start with the lighter weights and end with the 5x5 and still be effective?


Hmmm... I like to start with the heavy compound. Do a few short warmup sets for the heavier stuff. Read the Thibaudeau article I link to in that article. 


jbish8 said:


> 5. What is the best source to get that kind of split you suggested on the fats.
> I am taking udo's oil 3x6x9 but I'm not sure if I'm getting all those different kinds.


I'm not a fan of balanced fats. Most of us get too much 6 and 9 as it is. I just supplement with fish oil for the EPA/DHA (your body won't convert enough from ALA) and eat plenty of avocados, olive oil, butter, raw nuts, egg yolks etc for the healthy natural fats. An easy boost to calories is a shot of olive oil with a shake. Good healthy monos and a painless way to stuff in extra calories. 



jbish8 said:


> 6. Last one. Sorry. So does the UD2.0 have a diet recommendation for bulk.
> I kind of got lost since the BFFM only talks about how to cut.


You just run a surplus rather than a deficit. I can help you with that part when you get there - I built a spreadsheet that runs the numbers based on your LBM and a few other parameters. 



jbish8 said:


> You probly' have all this on your blog, so it may not matter in a while. As far as the pictures of my "wheels" I'll have to work on that one. I went through my pictures and realized I'm wearing board shorts in everything so I'll have to spend some time with a shaver (where do I start, or end for that matter), and take some new ones . Thanks again.


Meh, I was born in the sixties and I married a Hungarian. In my world, men are hairy - no need to shave to post 'em up.


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## jbish8 (Jun 14, 2009)

Thanks  Built, that should answer all my questions. I love that you said butter and egg yolks. I haven't even seen those items in a year or so. If only you had said cheese. I will get back as soon as I read the UD2.0.

Thanks for the input everyone.


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## Built (Jun 14, 2009)

Cheese is good too. You need SOME saturated fat. It supports testosterone production. 

My husband eats five eggs and cheddar scrambled in butter for breakfast every morning. Keeps him full for HOURS.


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## nkira (Jun 14, 2009)

Nice combo....I am gonna try it out. I am already eating eggs in the morning, adding cheddar would be nice. Any one tried cottage cheese n egg combo?




Built said:


> Eggs and cheddar scrambled in butter for breakfast every morning. Keeps him full for HOURS.


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## Yanick (Jun 15, 2009)

I just want to add a few points. For a naturally thin, 32 y/o without hormonal assistance its pretty difficult to put on the lean mass. The sad fact of the matter is, even with all of your ducks in a row, you might squeeze out an extra couple of pounds of LBM in a few months of training. So what I'm saying, practically, is that in the 1.5 years of cutting/bulking you might have maybe squeezed out 10 lbs of lean mass instead of 6. No matter what the magazines say natural trainees, especially once they are up there in age, don't gain 25lbs of muscle in 6 weeks. Mileage will vary with the individual of course, but I'm saying don't expect to explode when you implement X diet or Y training program.

Another thing to look at is your method of measuring BF. Readings can all vary based on fluid balance in the body and if you get too caught up on the number it can lead you too prematurely call it quits on mass phases lose time by getting back down to X% whereas you could've just kept at bulking for a little more, and had more mass to show for it.

The training aspect can get as complicated as the dieting aspect. I recommend you read around the training forum on this place, Built's blog, and P-Funk (Patricks) blog (too lazy to link, you'll see his stuff all over the place in the training forum). Learn how to set up blocks of training and periodize your training, that way you can go heavy for time periods then have some back off weeks for recovery and metabolic work etc. Too much to go into in a single post, books are written about this stuff, but just know that safe, effective and efficient training is part and parcel of any bulking/cutting phase.


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## jbish8 (Jun 15, 2009)

Built said:


> Cheese is good too. You need SOME saturated fat. It supports testosterone production.
> 
> My husband eats five eggs and cheddar scrambled in butter for breakfast every morning. Keeps him full for HOURS.


Mmmmmmm....Cheeeeeeese.<drooling> (I must be ovulating).
Hey, by the way Built, I noticed on your blog that you like Glute ham-ups.
I'm gonna try your technique but if you're interested, I have one that you might like and you can do it with a small seat and Smith machine. Let me know and I'll post a video. Thanks again for all the help.


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## Built (Jun 15, 2009)

Oooh, post it!


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## jbish8 (Jun 15, 2009)

Yanick said:


> I just want to add a few points. For a naturally thin, 32 y/o without hormonal assistance its pretty difficult to put on the lean mass. The sad fact of the matter is, even with all of your ducks in a row, you might squeeze out an extra couple of pounds of LBM in a few months of training. So what I'm saying, practically, is that in the 1.5 years of cutting/bulking you might have maybe squeezed out 10 lbs of lean mass instead of 6. No matter what the magazines say natural trainees, especially once they are up there in age, don't gain 25lbs of muscle in 6 weeks. Mileage will vary with the individual of course, but I'm saying don't expect to explode when you implement X diet or Y training program.
> 
> Another thing to look at is your method of measuring BF. Readings can all vary based on fluid balance in the body and if you get too caught up on the number it can lead you too prematurely call it quits on mass phases lose time by getting back down to X% whereas you could've just kept at bulking for a little more, and had more mass to show for it.
> 
> The training aspect can get as complicated as the dieting aspect. I recommend you read around the training forum on this place, Built's blog, and P-Funk (Patricks) blog (too lazy to link, you'll see his stuff all over the place in the training forum). Learn how to set up blocks of training and periodize your training, that way you can go heavy for time periods then have some back off weeks for recovery and metabolic work etc. Too much to go into in a single post, books are written about this stuff, but just know that safe, effective and efficient training is part and parcel of any bulking/cutting phase.


Thanks alot for the input Yanik. You're right my expectations are probly' a bit high but it's been a long time since I believed anything I've read in a magazine. I guess I just want to make sure I'm being as efficent as I can be, plus I love to experiment to see what works best for me. I may just have to keep doing what I'm doing with a few tweaks that have been recommended, cause I am gaining LBM but it just seems really slow. It sounds like that's normal though, so I'll try to be more patient.

As far as the BF%, again you are right. I probly' get a little obsessed with that too however I feel pretty confident in the measurement method. My father works at the local campus in my area so I have access to a DEXA scanner and the "Bod pod" for a very reasonable price. Both have always been within .5% of each other for my wife and I and they are always within 1% of my accumeasure (don't laugh, it works well when you get below the 15% range). I always test the same time in the morning and even the same day of the week. The method I find the least accurate is the bioimpedic scales. They can jump all over the place even within minutes. As far as when to cut, I really just use the mirror and how I feel but I agree I could probly' get better results as far as gaining quicker if I bulked longer but staying as lean and athletic as possible is also my goal so whattayado. Oh well I can be patient.

I do need alot of help in the training area, so I really appreciate the references for that and I will definetly be reading up on that area. Thanks for the time.


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## jbish8 (Jun 16, 2009)

This post is cause the site won't let me post links until I've posted 10 posts cause of some spam mumbo jumbo or something. Anyhow this will be my 10th post so I am now officially not spam. Yipeeee.


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## jbish8 (Jun 16, 2009)

Built said:


> Oooh, post it!


Hope ya have Quicktime.Here's the ham-ups, not sure why there is no sound but don't worry, it was just some cheesy gym music. No this does not hurt my back and yes I do know I forgot to breath (Like I said I'm still learning on the training)http://files.me.com/brucewayne8/b77gj5
Here's my favorite ab excersize courtesy of Rocky and bruce Lee. Ya all should try it. It's harder than it looks.http://files.me.com/brucewayne8/jqf561.mov


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## Built (Jun 16, 2009)

Okay, those look crazy hard. You're STRONG!


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## juggernaut (Jun 16, 2009)

uhh Built. Stop salivating. Poor guy probably feels like a boytoy.


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## Built (Jun 16, 2009)

Yeah, guys hate that.


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## juggernaut (Jun 16, 2009)

Me especially...gosh!


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## jbish8 (Jun 17, 2009)

Hey guys, Does anyone know if there is an e-book version of UD2.0, I can't seem to find one on Lyle's site but I see people talking about them all over the place.


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## T_man (Jun 17, 2009)

your shoulders on the second to last shot omg wtf look how much they stick out

whats your shoulder routine??


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## est doll (Jun 17, 2009)

There isn't an e-version of UD 2.0 anymore.

After researching and snooping around the internet,I believe it used to exist,but it has been removed because people used to pass it around.

I ran into the same problem a few weeks ago when i finally bought hard copy version from Lyle's website.They shipped it really fast with no problem.

Only took a few days.


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## jbish8 (Jun 17, 2009)

T_man said:


> your shoulders on the second to last shot omg wtf look how much they stick out
> 
> whats your shoulder routine??


Thanks man,
I actually don't really have a specific routine for shoulders. I have just been trying to stick to as many compound lifts as possible. I'm really trying to get a better handle on the whole training aspect. After reading through Builts blog and some stuff in the training section, It looks as tough I've been bulking all wrong. I've always done 4 sets of 12 reps on everything and tons of drop and supersets with 30 to 60 second rests. It's been really hard to keep progressing that way.......Sorry got off topic. To answer your question I do BB military, Arnolds and sometimes upright rows but thats about it. I actually feel like I get my shoulders the most when I do incline bench, and that's mostly all I do for chest so maybe that's. Sorry I can't be more help. I'm somewhat of a newbie as much as I hate to admit it.


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## jbish8 (Jun 17, 2009)

est doll said:


> There isn't an e-version of UD 2.0 anymore.
> 
> After researching and snooping around the internet,I believe it used to exist,but it has been removed because people used to pass it around.
> 
> ...


Oh well, thanks for the help anyways. By the way, how are you liking it so far?


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## est doll (Jun 17, 2009)

I am not using UD 2.0 as yet.People say wonderful things about it though.

I am currently strength training (Built is coaching me!) and I'm about to do a PSMF (Rapid fat Loss - another book by Lyle) and only once i'm through with that I'll be on UD 2.0.

I just do whatever Built tells me,and so far - works like magic!



I'm sure my physical goals are very different from yours though,given the fact that I'm clueless at BB-ing and am a female.

There are a few people on this forum that have posted their UD 2.0 experiences though, just do a search,all the ones i have seen have been very positive,that's what made me buy the book.Partly - because i'd like to use the UD 2.0 in the near future and partly to just educate myself on the way things work (nitrition-wise) - Lyle explains everything in detail,I'm learning a lot from the books (RFL and UD 2.0) and of course Built is a walking encyclopedia.


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## jbish8 (Jun 17, 2009)

est doll said:


> I just do whatever Built tells me,and so far - works like magic!


Yup, I'm learning that's the case. I tried her bicep workout, and loved it. Also tried cleans for the first time. Loved that one too, makes me want to try some more Olympic lifts I haven't done yet. Time for some youtubin'. Well good luck, not that ya need it.....just keep doin' what she tells ya.


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## nkira (Jun 18, 2009)

Cleans are BOMB!


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## jbish8 (Jun 19, 2009)

*"To UD2 or not to UD2"*

So I've read through the UD2 book, and love Lyle's reasoning and explanations for how and why things work during cutting and bulking phases. It makes alot of sense to me. Here's my question however: Has anyone here successfully BULKED on this diet and if so could you describe your results. The reason I ask is, while his program makes alot of sense to me in being efficent on a cut, I have some concerns that it would work as well on a bulk (which is my goal). Any input is greatly appreciated.


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## gtbmed (Jun 19, 2009)

How do you want to incorporate 5x5 into your program?  I think it's best suited for heavy compound lifts, which you should be doing early in your workout.

Apart from that, Starr's 5x5 program recommends that you start at a weight that is only a percentage of your 5RM.  For example, many people recommend starting the program somewhere between 80-90% of your current 5RM (as opposed to the 85% of your 1RM that you're using), then building up the weight progressively over a few weeks until you start setting new 5RMs and stuff like that.

5x5 is a difficult rep range, but my guess is, if you're experiencing some pain, you need to let your body get accustomed to that type of load.  Drop the weight a bit, work up to your current 5RMs over a few weeks, and you should get comfotable with it.


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## jbish8 (Jun 19, 2009)

gtbmed said:


> How do you want to incorporate 5x5 into your program?  I think it's best suited for heavy compound lifts, which you should be doing early in your workout.
> 
> Apart from that, Starr's 5x5 program recommends that you start at a weight that is only a percentage of your 5RM.  For example, many people recommend starting the program somewhere between 80-90% of your current 5RM (as opposed to the 85% of your 1RM that you're using), then building up the weight progressively over a few weeks until you start setting new 5RMs and stuff like that.
> 
> 5x5 is a difficult rep range, but my guess is, if you're experiencing some pain, you need to let your body get accustomed to that type of load.  Drop the weight a bit, work up to your current 5RMs over a few weeks, and you should get comfotable with it.


Great advice. I actually do think that's my problem, cause after studying up some on training, I've realized my training has all been endurance (high volume, high reps, and short rests), and I don't think my body (joints and such) are used to or ready for 85% of my one rep max. I like the logic in what you're saying. Thanks alot. I'm gonna try it.


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## gtbmed (Jun 19, 2009)

Also, if you're accustomed to short rest intervals, you may need to think about getting more rest between each set of 5 reps.

5 reps of a heavy compound lift is taxing, not only to the muscles but to the CNS.  Starr/Pendlay generally recommend something like 2-5 minutes of rest between sets, but you have to go by how you feel.  If you do a set and you feel really fatigued, you may need to rest more, things like that.


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## jbish8 (Jun 20, 2009)

gtbmed said:


> Also, if you're accustomed to short rest intervals, you may need to think about getting more rest between each set of 5 reps.
> 
> 5 reps of a heavy compound lift is taxing, not only to the muscles but to the CNS.  Starr/Pendlay generally recommend something like 2-5 minutes of rest between sets, but you have to go by how you feel.  If you do a set and you feel really fatigued, you may need to rest more, things like that.


Yeah, I've tried one of Starrs programs and resting that long is hard for me (just cause I'm so used to the short rests that it feels like I'm not working hard if I'm not panting), but I can force the rests, it's the joint issues I haven't figured out. I think your earlier advice should do the trick.


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