# Military press - with a bar or on the Smith machine?



## mrmark (Nov 20, 2006)

For my shoulder work out which begins with military press, what do you guys think is best?

Standing military press with a bar or seated military press on a smith machine?

It is often said free weights are better but I wonder if the smith machine allows extra control over the weight.

Many thanks for any help.


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## P-funk (Nov 20, 2006)

anything but the smith machine.  there is no way to press in the proper line on a smith machine.  The bar needs to move around the head and then over the head during lockout.  This is more of a surve than a straight line.  This doesn't happen on a shit machine.


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## Gazhole (Nov 20, 2006)

Barbell or Dumbells. Never the "shit machine" as P put it


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## Witchblade (Nov 20, 2006)

Rule #7: Never, ever, use the smith machine.


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## DiGiTaL (Nov 20, 2006)

I love how everyone uses the smith machines and no one uses the bench press ever in my gym (Except me that is)


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## Double D (Nov 20, 2006)

Absolutly hate the smith machine. I have one at home and it sits in the corner and hasnt been used since I got it a few years ago. It was a gift from my mom. Nice of her, but for the same amount of money I couldve gotten a squat rack.


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## Seanp156 (Nov 20, 2006)

DiGiTaL said:


> I love how everyone uses the smith machines and no one uses the bench press ever in my gym (Except me that is)



Where I work, this is often the case... I see some people doing quarter squats in the smith machine... I've learned to just ignore it anymore...


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## katt (Nov 20, 2006)

I only use the smith machine for ATG squats - just cause I can't seem to balance the darn bar on my shoulders


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## Nate K (Nov 20, 2006)

katt said:


> I only use the smith machine for ATG squats - just cause I can't seem to balance the darn bar on my shoulders



You can do ieeet!


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## vortrit (Nov 20, 2006)

katt said:


> I only use the smith machine for ATG squats - just cause I can't seem to balance the darn bar on my shoulders



Have you tried on of those shoulder pads? I think, it's called a manta ray pad. Very comfortable and easier to balance a barbell.


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## KentDog (Nov 20, 2006)

I prefer dumbbells.

katt - try to get someone to help you out with your form, freeweight squats are so different than SM squats.


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## P-funk (Nov 20, 2006)

katt said:


> I only use the smith machine for ATG squats - just cause I can't seem to balance the darn bar on my shoulders



are you trying to set it high bar or low bar?


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## DOMS (Nov 20, 2006)

P-funk said:


> are you trying to set it high bar or low bar?


Maybe he's leaning forward or backward too much?  Flexibility issues, perhaps?


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## P-funk (Nov 20, 2006)

DOMS said:


> Maybe he's leaning forward or backward too much?  Flexibility issues, perhaps?



lol....Katt is not a 'he'!!


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## DOMS (Nov 20, 2006)

P-funk said:


> lol....Katt is not a 'he'!!



Doeth!

I saw that mark was the thread started and I *ass*umed...


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## ALBOB (Nov 21, 2006)

katt said:


> I only use the smith machine for ATG squats - just cause I can't seem to balance the darn bar on my shoulders



Have you ever tried front squats.  They take a bit of getting used to, but having the bar on the front of your shoulders helps a great deal with balance.  I found that once I perfected my form on fronts I did much better on back squats too.

Back on topic:  I'm gonna throw out a double no-no.  I occasionally use the Smith Machine to do behind the neck military presses.  By using the macine I don't have to worry about my shoulder joint hyper-extending in the rearward direction.  I find it's a great change up to my normal routine, but I use it very sparingly.


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## CowPimp (Nov 21, 2006)

I prefer not to use the smith machine at all.  I don't particularly like machines period, but they have their place in bodybuilding programs.  If you are going to use a machine, then you might as well use those which are designed specifically for the exercise you plan on doing so there is some semblance of a natural line of action.


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## Perdido (Nov 21, 2006)

Witchblade said:


> Rule #7: Never, ever, use the smith machine.


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## vortrit (Nov 21, 2006)

rahaas said:


>



I don't agree. Yes, go for the free weights first. But if I were in a situation were all I had to work on was the smith-machine it would be okay once in awhile. I'm not saying it would be okay everytime, but once in awhile is fine.

I was at the gym last week and this guy ranted on and on and on about how great the smith machine was for shoulder press because it was better on your rotor cuffs. Funny thing is, I've noticed my shoulders popping a lot less (actually never at all) since using free weights. So, yeah free weights are the way to go, but smith machine once in awhile, I think, if fine. I actually had to do shoulder press once last week on the smith because nothing else was available and I was in a rush.

So I agree, but I'd rather use the smith than skip something altogether...


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## Perdido (Nov 22, 2006)

vortrit said:


> So I agree, but I'd rather use the smith than skip something altogether...



The reason I agreed was that I've only had a sore lower back and shoulder joints from using that machine. IMO the purpose of using a machine is to insure perfect form which that one fails at.
If I was forced to use it for whatever reason, I'm going to another gym or workout at home rather than risk getting hurt.


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## vortrit (Nov 22, 2006)

rahaas said:


> The reason I agreed was that I've only had a sore lower back and shoulder joints from using that machine. IMO the purpose of using a machine is to insure perfect form which that one fails at.
> If I was forced to use it for whatever reason, I'm going to another gym or workout at home rather than risk getting hurt.



As I said I noticed my shoulder popping problem went away since getting away from it. However, it don't seem to bother me to use once in awhile, not all the time. I personally have not noticed pain from using it the one time in the past few months. In a rare event I will use it.

But personally I'd rather see your attitude about it than a lot of the people around here. There are a lot who think it's the greatest. This one guy from the gym is always doing close grip bench on it. I told him I never use it for tri work, and the dumbass told me my arms look like sticks. My arms are probably an inch smaller than his, not to mention the fact I've been growing like a week the past six months, and I also don't have his beer belly... etc. 

The only thing I've used it for on a regular basis is standing calf raise. If anyone can point out how that would be bad, I'd be glad to find another way to work my calves...


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## vortrit (Nov 22, 2006)

CowPimp said:


> I prefer not to use the smith machine at all.  I don't particularly like machines period, but they have their place in bodybuilding programs.  If you are going to use a machine, then you might as well use those which are designed specifically for the exercise you plan on doing so there is some semblance of a natural line of action.



Are your feelings the same for an ab machine? I ask because I've noticed a lot of BB's claim to hate machines, but still seem to like the ab machines. It's the only machine I am still using on a regular basis. Except for leg stuff, of course.


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## P-funk (Nov 22, 2006)

this was just covered in another thread.

The idea of an ab machine is the silliest thing I have ever heard.  Just think about it....the muscles that provide the stability to your body are now asked to not work in that fashion at all......doesn't that seem stupid....I mean really.  just think about it.


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## CowPimp (Nov 22, 2006)

vortrit said:


> Are your feelings the same for an ab machine? I ask because I've noticed a lot of BB's claim to hate machines, but still seem to like the ab machines. It's the only machine I am still using on a regular basis. Except for leg stuff, of course.



Nope, don't use that either.  The closest I get to a machine is cable equipment.

I have never used machines regularly.  The leg press a little sporadically, and some lower body machine work when I was coming back from a shoulder injury.  I never liked them.  They always felt akward to me. I benched on a smith machine one time, and that was it.  I was 13-14, and I didn't know shit, but I knew it felt unnatural.


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## P-funk (Nov 22, 2006)

CowPimp said:


> Nope, don't use that either.  The closest I get to a machine is cable equipment.
> 
> I have never used machines regularly.  The leg press a little sporadically, and some lower body machine work when I was coming back from a shoulder injury.  I never liked them.  They always felt akward to me. I benched on a smith machine one time, and that was it.  I was 13-14, and I didn't know shit, but I knew it felt unnatural.



I don't consider cable equpitment a machine though becasue it allows for joint stability and moves in all three planes.


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## CowPimp (Nov 22, 2006)

P-funk said:


> I don't consider cable equpitment a machine though becasue it allows for joint stability and moves in all three planes.



I agree.  The freedom of movement is there.  That's why I said the closest to a machine, heh.


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## vortrit (Nov 22, 2006)

CowPimp said:


> Nope, don't use that either.  The closest I get to a machine is cable equipment.
> 
> I have never used machines regularly.  The leg press a little sporadically, and some lower body machine work when I was coming back from a shoulder injury.  I never liked them.  They always felt akward to me. I benched on a smith machine one time, and that was it.  I was 13-14, and I didn't know shit, but I knew it felt unnatural.



I like doing cable crunches. They don't seem that different from good mornings.


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## P-funk (Nov 22, 2006)

vortrit said:


> I like doing cable crunches. They don't seem that different from good mornings.



a crunch (flexion) is the complete opposite of a good morning (extension).


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## vortrit (Nov 22, 2006)

P-funk said:


> a crunch (flexion) is the complete opposite of a good morning (extension).




I was refering to the kind were you stand straight and bend down in a forward motion. Maybe it is different, just seems close... bending down in a forward motion.


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## P-funk (Nov 22, 2006)

vortrit said:


> I was refering to the kind were you stand straight and bend down in a forward motion. Maybe it is different, just seems close... bending down in a forward motion.



It is the complete opposite movement.  read my last post.  think about the concentric and eccentric of each of those exercises.  they are in opposition.


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## vortrit (Nov 22, 2006)

P-funk said:


> It is the complete opposite movement.  read my last post.  think about the concentric and eccentric of each of those exercises.  they are in opposition.



Right. That makes sence.

Either way, I've noticed WAY better ab development since adding good mornings to my routine, which Cowpimp seems to suggest a lot. 

I guess it's time to stay away from the ab machine, and definatly the smith although I rarley use the smith machine anyway...

As I said though, this one guy at one of my gyms tells me how great the smith is for shoulder pressing. It's hard to argue with him because he's easily 3X my size. I guess I will have to barbell shoulder press when he's not looking.


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## AKIRA (Nov 22, 2006)

vortrit said:


> Right. That makes sence.
> 
> Either way, I've noticed WAY better ab development since adding good mornings to my routine, which Cowpimp seems to suggest a lot.
> 
> ...



Mr. Florida at my gym is NEVER seen doing any free weight movements.  Hes always on machines or the fucking smith machine.  He even recommends the movements for his clients.

The guys that workout with him follow the same workouts he does and theyre not much smaller.

I just dont get it.  I find myself at one point arguing with him or someone else about free weights vs. machines.


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## vortrit (Nov 22, 2006)

AKIRA said:


> Mr. Florida at my gym is NEVER seen doing any free weight movements.  Hes always on machines or the fucking smith machine.  He even recommends the movements for his clients.
> 
> The guys that workout with him follow the same workouts he does and theyre not much smaller.
> 
> I just dont get it.  I find myself at one point arguing with him or someone else about free weights vs. machines.




Well, as I've said. I've packed on WAY more mass in a shorter time using free weights. I did use the smith, etc., for a long time and I did grow, but I ended up dropping it, at the reccomendations of people of this board, and I've grown 2 1/2 X (at least) faster. 

You can't argue with results...

Well, actually some people can.


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## PWGriffin (Nov 22, 2006)

AKIRA said:


> Mr. Florida at my gym is NEVER seen doing any free weight movements.  Hes always on machines or the fucking smith machine.  He even recommends the movements for his clients.
> 
> The guys that workout with him follow the same workouts he does and theyre not much smaller.
> 
> I just dont get it.  I find myself at one point arguing with him or someone else about free weights vs. machines.



Does he recommend test and deca and dbol and growth to his clients as well?  Cuz that is DEFINITELY workin for him!!


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## CowPimp (Nov 22, 2006)

vortrit said:


> Right. That makes sence.
> 
> Either way, I've noticed WAY better ab development since adding good mornings to my routine, which Cowpimp seems to suggest a lot.
> 
> ...



I like good mornings, but make sure you take into account the risk factor.  For a reference, I have had one client do good mornings for a couple of weeks with very submaximal weight.  That was it.


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## PWGriffin (Nov 22, 2006)

I think uber light good mornings are a great way of teaching people to keep their back tight and shoulders up....A lot of my clients can't even do RDL's with their own bodyweight without serious rounding either in the lumbar or thoracic region...


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## P-funk (Nov 22, 2006)

PWGriffin said:


> I think uber light good mornings are a great way of teaching people to keep their back tight and shoulders up....A lot of my clients can't even do RDL's with their own bodyweight without serious rounding either in the lumbar or thoracic region...



I teach 1-legged good mornings with a broom stick as a precursor to 1-legged RDLs, for some people.


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## camarosuper6 (Nov 22, 2006)

I dont see anything wrong with the smith.

I use it (albeit sparingly) but I use it for the occasional Military Press and Incline Press for chest.  Very helpful if I dont have a spotter, and my gains have been solid.

But to each their own.


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## Burner02 (Nov 22, 2006)

P-funk said:


> this was just covered in another thread.
> 
> The idea of an ab machine is the silliest thing I have ever heard. Just think about it....the muscles that provide the stability to your body are now asked to not work in that fashion at all......doesn't that seem stupid....I mean really. just think about it.


what???? You don't think the AB LOUNGE is a viable tool? I want my 6 minute abs, dammit!

<note to self: scratch Ab Lounger off Christmas wish list>


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## vortrit (Nov 23, 2006)

CowPimp said:


> I like good mornings, but make sure you take into account the risk factor.  For a reference, I have had one client do good mornings for a couple of weeks with very submaximal weight.  That was it.




I think I generally use about 10 - 15 pounds...


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## KataKlysm954 (Nov 23, 2006)

Seanp156 said:


> Where I work, this is often the case... I see some people doing quarter squats in the smith machine... I've learned to just ignore it anymore...



hmm.... and yeah a diablo 2 screen shot for your pic....


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## JimSnow (Nov 23, 2006)

I dunno. I suppose I'm a "freeweight person". I don't use machines. When I use cables - it's rope, maybe pulleys w/freeweights attached.

I think machines have their places.

One of my dreams is to build a rock wall with the heaviest rocks I can handle from a river at the base of my property over a great deal of time. I dont use machines to train for that. I use rocks.


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## JerseyDevil (Nov 23, 2006)

Machines have their place, but they can never REplace free weight compound movements.  I like some cables, some Hammer Strength, 45 degree leg press, that's about it.

As far as big dudes using machines exclusively, that's just drugs and laziness in action.


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## Plateau_Max (Nov 24, 2006)

There's a few things to consider when you see people dominate machines.  In the gym we have set up over here they're two completely different sides of the building.  People who are rats like me have taken to calling the two sides "the free world" and "the machine world" I guess it's a play off the matrix or something, but anyway...

CP do you recommend seated or standing good mornings?  I like to start people off with seated because I like them but people are usually turned off real quick by how akward the standing ones can be.  I do standing good mornings personally and use the EZ bar since it sort of navigates around my neck a bit.

On to the debate.  The Smith Machine can be alright if used properly, I see a deal of people using it for squats so they can place their feet farther forward and have their back vertical through the whole movement.  While this does work the posterior aspect of the leg more I feel it removes much needed gluteus activity, especially when that's their only form of squat... as in they're not pairing front squats to activate the quad region.

For military press I would say if you need it for that extra helping hand on balance then ONLY use it for anterior presses only where you can easily lean forward and straighten your body out as the bar goes above your head where it needs to be at the end of the movement.  Posteriors you need to use the free bar and you need to have a spotter since this move can go easily out of whack and the last thing you want is a bar pulling your arms back behind you really fast (ouch).

quick question AKIRA sir, does the smith Mr. Florida use have horizontal freedom?  and does he do core specific training since all he uses is machines which take away from the need for core strength?


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## CowPimp (Nov 24, 2006)

I've never really had people do seated good mornings, though I have done them myself.  Like I said, I don't generally have people do standing good mornings either.  I have done both, but have used the standing version much more.


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