# The greatest Country in the world



## GFR (Jun 9, 2005)

Vote for the Country you think is the best to live in, and give some reasons why.


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## busyLivin (Jun 9, 2005)

USA. We have our problems, but still the best 


.. even though I've never left the country


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## musclepump (Jun 9, 2005)

USA Muddah fuckah!


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## TriZZle305 (Jun 9, 2005)

Usa..


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## SPIKE1257 (Jun 9, 2005)

That's a no brainer.. I think everyone will say U.S.A. The assholes are rushing our borders daily, can't keep the dumbshits out.


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## Robboe (Jun 9, 2005)

England. 

Cuz i'm here.


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## GFR (Jun 9, 2005)

Top 10 in standard of living
1. Norway
2.  Sweden
3. Canada
4. Belgium.........oops should have put them on the list
5. Australia
6. USA
7. Iceland
8. Netherlands
9. Japan
10. Finland


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## TriZZle305 (Jun 9, 2005)

I have never been accross the atlantic..


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## GFR (Jun 9, 2005)

Top 10 Countries with Enviornmental Treaties

1. Norway
2. Netherlands
3. Sweden
4. Denmark
5. Switzerland
6. Canada
7. Austria
8. Bulgaria
9. Luxembourg
10. Czech Republic


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## god hand (Jun 9, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Top 10 Countries with Enviornmental Treaties
> 
> 1. Norway
> 2. Netherlands
> ...



Most powerful country in the world. 
1. USA
2. USA
3. USA
4. U get tha picture


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## Witmaster (Jun 9, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Top 10 Countries with Enviornmental Treaties
> 
> 1. Norway
> 2. Netherlands
> ...


Any coincidence that every one of those listed had to have their tree huggin asses saved and/or kicked by the United States in one or more past situation?


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## GFR (Jun 9, 2005)

Top 10 Weapons exporting Countries

1. Russia 5.9 Billion
2. USA 3.9 Billion
3. France 1.6 Billion
4. China .8 Billion
5. Germany .7 Billion
6. United Kingdom .7 Billion
7. Italy .5 Billion
8. Canada .3 Billion
9. Ukraine .3 Billion
10. Netherlands .3 Billion


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## Fashong (Jun 9, 2005)

USA > ALL  muahahhahaa lol


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## Vieope (Jun 9, 2005)

_To the people that picked USA, did you ever visited another country? _


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## SPIKE1257 (Jun 9, 2005)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _To the people that picked USA, did you ever visited another country? _


Yes..


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## god hand (Jun 9, 2005)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _To the people that picked USA, did you ever visited another country? _


No! Y? So I can get my head chopped off!


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## god hand (Jun 9, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Top 10 Weapons exporting Countries
> 
> 1. Russia 5.9 Billion
> 2. USA 3.9 Billion
> ...



I am loving the stats Forefuck! Keep them comin!


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## TriZZle305 (Jun 9, 2005)

this being a *EDIT: predominantly * american forum, i have no doubt that by the end of this forums lifetime.. if it does ever end.. the odds will be well in favor of USA,


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## GFR (Jun 9, 2005)

Top 10 Military expenditures ( per capita)

1. Israel
2. Singapore
3. USA
4. Brunei
5. New Caledonia
6. Kuwait
7. Qatar
8. Oman
9. Bahrain
10. France


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## Vieope (Jun 9, 2005)

SPIKE1257 said:
			
		

> Yes..


_I like america but I don´t think I want to live in it. At least not today. It seems that everybody lives in a prison. That is the view the rest of the world gets now. Laws for everything, censorship.. 
Anyway, it doesn´t seem the america of freedom I liked when I was growing up. But NYC is great and so is europe, asia.. _


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## Witmaster (Jun 9, 2005)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _To the people that picked USA, did you ever visited another country? _


Aye

Japan
Phillipines
Korea
Mexico
Germany
Austria
France
Spain
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Kuwait
Tajikastan
Afghanistan
Bosnia
Serbia
Croatia
Guam (does that count?)

Now, granted, some of these were combat missions and the overall experience wasn't exactly what I would consider "vacation standard".  However, I did get the opportunity to experience a great many good things in Each of these countries.  Each place offered a very unique (some better than others) experience but still, I prefer the freedom, security, and beauty of the United States.  Yes, as an American Citizen I am very biased but hey, that's my right as an American


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## GFR (Jun 9, 2005)

Top 10 most educated

1. Norway
2. Finland
3. Australia
4. United Kingdom
5. New Zealand
6. Sweden
7. Netherlands
8. Belgium
9. Iceland
10. Denmark

11. France
14. USA
18. Canada


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## TriZZle305 (Jun 9, 2005)

well damn norway just needs to take over the world


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## Vieope (Jun 9, 2005)

_That is one good list Wit, I still think you can have fun at almost any place. So every country I would think it is nice to live in. Places with no war I mean. 
If it has women, internet, culture and good people. I can stay there for a long time. Stop by in south america anytime, there are some neat places here that will go undiscovered for a long time..   _


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## TriZZle305 (Jun 9, 2005)

jack their military up a lil bit and go for it


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## TriZZle305 (Jun 9, 2005)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _That is one good list Wit, I still think you can have fun at almost any place. So every country I would think it is nice to live in. Places with no war I mean.
> If it has women, internet, culture and good people. I can stay there for a long time. Stop by in south america anytime, there are some neat places here that will go undiscovered for a long time..   _


I want to go to Brazil... they always look nice on the music videos  

EDIT: we had a brazilian girl in my school in miami once  mm mm mm


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## min0 lee (Jun 9, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Top 10 Military expenditures ( per capita)
> 
> 1. Israel
> 
> I thought most of that money came from the USA.


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## Vieope (Jun 9, 2005)

TriZZle305 said:
			
		

> I want to go to Brazil... they always look nice on the music videos
> 
> EDIT: we had a brazilian girl in my school in miami once  mm mm mm


_
Yes, the women  
It is great here but other south american countries are pretty good too and Canada is great, South Africa, Egypt, Russia, Japan, Laos, Australia.. _


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## gr81 (Jun 9, 2005)

fucc all the other shit, I voted sweden just for their blondes.. couldn't be helped


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## JJJ (Jun 9, 2005)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Any coincidence that every one of those listed had to have their tree huggin asses saved and/or kicked by the United States in one or more past situation?



Well thats just not true.


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## Witmaster (Jun 9, 2005)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _That is one good list Wit, I still think you can have fun at almost any place. _


Oh I agree entirely.  I've never been to a country where I wasn't able to have a good time in some form or fashion.

Brazil is on our list of places to visit.  Being held captive in a Brazillian Steak House is a fantasy of mine


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## The Monkey Man (Jun 9, 2005)

got hand? said:
			
		

> 1. USA
> 2. USA
> 3. USA
> 4. U get tha picture


U-G-L-Y...

Baby, you aint got no alibi...

You UGLY - Ooh-Ooh - You UGLY


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## JJJ (Jun 9, 2005)

Move norway just a little to the south, and make them all speak swedish, and Id vote Norway.


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## GFR (Jun 9, 2005)

Divorce rate top 10 

1. USA
2. Puerto Rico
3. Russia
4. United Kingdom
5. Denmark
6. New Zealand
7. Australia
8. Canada
9. Finland
10. Barbados


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## JJJ (Jun 9, 2005)

Rank	Country	Debt - external (Billion $)

1	United States	1,400	
2	Brazil	223.6	
3	Portugal	211.7	
4	Australia	193	
5	China	184	
6	Russia	165.4	
7	Mexico	159.3	
8	Argentina	142	
9	Turkey	141.3	
10	Korea, South	134.9	

Rank	Country	Internet users

1	United States	159,000,000	
2	China	59,100,000	
3	Japan	57,200,000	
4	Germany	34,000,000	
5	Korea, South	26,270,000	
6	United Kingdom	25,000,000	
7	Italy	19,900,000	
8	France	18,716,000	
9	India	16,580,000	
10	Canada	16,110,000	

Rank	Country	Military manpower - availability

1	China	379,524,688	
2	India	293,677,117	
3	United States	73,597,731	
4	Indonesia	66,458,805	
5	Brazil	52,100,042	
6	Pakistan	39,793,586	
7	Bangladesh	39,523,128	
8	Russia	39,127,169	
9	Nigeria	32,665,407	
10	Japan	29,179,095	

Rank	Country	Life expectancy at birth (years)

1	Andorra	83.5	
2	Macau	82.03	
3	San Marino	81.53	
4	Singapore	81.53	
5	Hong Kong	81.39	
6	Japan	81.04	
7	Switzerland	80.31	
8	Sweden	80.3	
9	Australia	80.26	
10	Iceland	80.18


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## JJJ (Jun 9, 2005)

I wonder how it would come out if you couldnt vote for the country you were born in...


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## GFR (Jun 9, 2005)

Jehovahs Witnesses........who has the most

1. USA
2. Brazil
3. Mexico
4. Nigeria
5. Italy
6. Japan
7. Germany
8. Philippines
9. Russia
10. Argentina


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## The Monkey Man (Jun 9, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Jehovahs Witnesses........who has the most
> 
> 1. USA
> 2. Brazil
> ...


 

Ahhhhhhhhh!!!!!


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## Vieope (Jun 9, 2005)

_Not true. I never saw Jehovahs Witnesses in my life. I learned about that in american movies._


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## min0 lee (Jun 9, 2005)

They are downright annoying, knocking on my door early in the morning


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## Vieope (Jun 9, 2005)

_Aren´t they the ones that try to sell bibles? What do they do more? _


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## Witmaster (Jun 9, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> They are downright annoying, knocking on my door early in the morning


Yea, and I learned the hard way that if you try to act civilized and polite that only prompts them to come back more often.

You gotta kick em in the balls up front so they get the message.


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## goandykid (Jun 9, 2005)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _To the people that picked USA, did you ever visited another country? _



I was born in Luxembourg, dad lives in Holland since parents divorced.
go overseas atleast once a summer.



...



USA dominates.


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## min0 lee (Jun 9, 2005)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Aren´t they the ones that try to sell bibles? What do they do more? _


I love it when they tell I am going to hell, I think that only a certain chosen few will make it to heaven and i have less of a chance to make it since I don't follow their religion.


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## The Monkey Man (Jun 9, 2005)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Not true. I never saw Jehovahs Witnesses in my life. I learned about that in american movies._


You count your blessings Cochise!


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## min0 lee (Jun 9, 2005)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Yea, and I learned the hard way that if you try to act civilized and polite that only prompts them to come back more often.
> 
> You gotta kick em in the balls up front so they get the message.


My co-worker who happens to be a Jehovah witness and he tells me they avoid those who answer the door in their under wares...lol.


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## min0 lee (Jun 9, 2005)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Vieope
> Man, we have the worst of the worst people here. All the rejects from all over the universe are here. Assassins, thieves, hookers, we have it all.
> 
> "IM the place where a transgender is just another dude."


Damn that Bunny


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## GFR (Jun 9, 2005)

Top 10 in Education spending ( % of GDP )

1. Moldova
2. Namibia
3. Denmark
4. South Africa
5. Uzbekistan
6. Barbados
7. Saudi Arabia
8. Sweden
9. Finland
10.New Zealand 

27. France
30. Australia
47. USA


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## Vieope (Jun 9, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> Damn that Bunny


_Look at that. My quote is a signature.  _


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## goandykid (Jun 9, 2005)

woo woo 47th, striving for perfection as always


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## goandykid (Jun 9, 2005)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Look at that. My quote is a signature.  _



I saw it right when you posted it, i had to.


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## Witmaster (Jun 9, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> My co-worker who happens to be a Jehovah witness and he tells me they avoid those who answer the door in their under wares...lol.


That didn't phase this one group a bit.  I answered the door one Saturday morning in nothing but a bathrobe (freezing winter day, mind you).  These persistant jackasses wanted me to stand there in the open doorway and shoot the shit.  Finally I just looked at them and said, "excuse me, My wife wants to fuck and I'm about to freeze my dick off here.  I better get inside before it's too late.  You guys wanna wait?"

Never saw those two again.


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## min0 lee (Jun 9, 2005)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> (freezing winter day, mind you). .


That would have explained the "shrinkage".


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## Witmaster (Jun 9, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> That would have explained the "shrinkage".


Hey, I may be a stud but I'm still mortal.


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## The Monkey Man (Jun 9, 2005)

About 4-5 years ago, my neighbor called me, and warned me the JW's were on their way over to my house... *"Don't answer the door man!"*

I answered the door in cut off sweatpants,
with my shotgun leaning against the closet door (very visable) behindme, hand down my pants scratching my nuts,
and in a southern accent...

It's a nice lookin couple...
I asked what they wanted...

The dude starts to go into his pitch, so I put this look of anger and severe distaste on my face, and say calmly...

"Y'all better git off my porch right quick"

I figure_ "this is over"_

The guy gets a scared look on his face,
But the lady just keeps going, and gets closer to me... Like in my face!?

So I sorta shift my weight, place my left foot backward in the direction of the closet...

The guy snags her by the elbow, and *drags* her... off the porch and down the driveway...

Didn't say one word!?

I wish I had it on video, it was totally premeditated... Awesome!


Then I heard later, all you have to say is, *"I've been disfellowshipped"*
And they will about-face and leave?


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## min0 lee (Jun 9, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> *"I've been disfellowshipped"*


I forgot about that, to get that you would have had to do something really bad.


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## The Monkey Man (Jun 9, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> I forgot about that, to get that you would have had to do something really bad.


Yeah, like be gay, or unmarried!?


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## Witmaster (Jun 9, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> Then I heard later, all you have to say is, *"I've been disfellowshipped"*
> And they will about-face and leave?


No shit?  That's the magic phrase?  Sweet!  I'll give it a whirl next time they show up.  If that doesn't work I'll elaborate on your method and answer the door looking like Ths guy...


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## The Monkey Man (Jun 9, 2005)




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## min0 lee (Jun 9, 2005)

It could be a list of things. They are very strict and they prefer their members to stay away from outsiders.


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## min0 lee (Jun 9, 2005)




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## irontime (Jun 9, 2005)

Greatest country in the world;
Anywhere but the U.S. 























just waiting to see how many people start bitching about that one


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## Rocco32 (Jun 9, 2005)

I've been quite a few places, would really like to go to Australia. 

I can say with certainty however that I think Sweden SUCKS


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## BigDyl (Jun 10, 2005)

CO2: Total Emissions (excluding land-use) Units: thousand metric tonnes of carbon dioxide

 Amount 
1. United States 5,762,054.0  
2. China 3,473,597.3  
3. Russia 1,540,365.0  
4. Japan 1,224,737.4  
5. India 1,007,978.9  
6. Germany 837,424.8  
7. United Kingdom 558,225.1  
8. Canada 521,404.4  
9. Italy 446,596.5  
10. Mexico 385,075.0  
11. France 363,484.2  
12. Ukraine 348,356.6  
13. South Africa 344,590.4  
14. Australia 332,377.2  
15. Brazil 327,857.7  
16. Spain 304,882.5  
17. Poland 303,777.5  
18. Indonesia 286,027.2  
19. Saudi Arabia 266,083.0  
20. Turkey 223,861.6  
21. Netherlands 174,809.1  
22. Thailand 171,696.5  
23. Korea, North 168,319.8  
24. Argentina 138,982.8  
25. Venezuela 136,685.5 


*hugs a tree*


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## min0 lee (Jun 10, 2005)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> **hugs a tree**


 That's not called hugging.


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## Flex (Jun 10, 2005)

'nuff said:


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## tucker01 (Jun 10, 2005)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Any coincidence that every one of those listed had to have their tree huggin asses saved and/or kicked by the United States in one or more past situation?




Not Canada


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## JJJ (Jun 10, 2005)

IainDaniel said:
			
		

> Not Canada



Nor Sweden.

 And I think Switzerland, only 95 % sure about that.


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## JJJ (Jun 10, 2005)

Rocco32 said:
			
		

> I can say with certainty however that I think Sweden SUCKS



Its was the polar bears, santa claus and the blond girls you couldnt stand right?


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## tucker01 (Jun 10, 2005)

Blonde girls eh?! I LOVE SWEDEN 

Except you suck at hockey


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## Big Smoothy (Jun 10, 2005)

Those that haven't lived abroad, can't really compare.

Also, we need to ask why. 


Lot of reasons, I think:

Jobs
taxes
lifestyle
cost of living
ability to meet people
weather
laws

and more.

I've always loved the Mediterranean, but I love living in South East Asia.

Plan on dying here.


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## drew.haynes (Jun 10, 2005)

I think three things when I see this thread and the posts in it.

1. France? ON the list? Come on.
2. I'd still really like to see more pics in BusyLivin's gallery, cuz he's lookin ripped. And I submit that request in the most straight way humanly possible.
3. I am really starting to like God Hand even less.


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## brogers (Jun 10, 2005)

Defeated Hitler and Nazism in Germany
Defeated Communism in the USSR

I've been abroad, and there is no better than the United States, not even close. Trips to Europe make me appreciate home even more.

Here's a top 5 list for you.



Most TaxedCountry..........Tax Revenue as % of GDP

1. Sweden.......50.8%
2. Denmark.....49.0%
3. Belgium.......45.8%
4. Finland.........44.9%
5. France..........44.2%​Least Taxed



Country..........Tax Revenue as % of GDP

1. Mexico............19.5%
2. U.S.................25.4%
3. Korea.............25.5%
4. Switzerland...29.8%
5. Ireland...........30.0%​


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## Rocco32 (Jun 10, 2005)

JJJ said:
			
		

> Its was the polar bears, santa claus and the blond girls you couldnt stand right?


Yep, I'm a brunette man


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## JJJ (Jun 10, 2005)

IanDaniel; We dont suck its just that all our stars (forsberg, Lidström, sundin, etc the list goes on) are bunch of women who fake injuries to get out of smaller tournaments and then play in the big ones. And Swedens coaches hasnt got the gut to exclude them all from all play, and let the hungry younger ones play. (oh and canada would suck a little if IIHF werent controlled by canada, the did a lot of things that no other country would be able to do the last WC. Great spirit in the team and good players though)

drew.haynes; yeah, the great culture, awsome scenery, food, wine, and women are no fun at all. Have you ever been there? Maybee a little upset with france due to the whole Iraq thing? Dont forget, they saved your asses agains UK.

brogers: I realise now how different everyone thinks, you posted that the USA has got low taxes, and thought of it as a positive for living in the US? I see sweden is high taxed and thats a positive for living here. (= healtcare, schools, pension, social saftey net, infrastrukture etc that works.)

Rocco32; yeah, that could be troublesome


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## BigDyl (Jun 10, 2005)

Yeah and what does our tax money do for us anyways? 

I'd rather not spend anymore on taxes, yet have what we do pay for not go into a 500 billion dollar military budget.  Maybe take 1% of that and put it into healthcare, or education.  Maybe we should spend money saving people instead of building bombs to kill them.


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## SPIKE1257 (Jun 10, 2005)

Flex said:
			
		

> 'nuff said:


Amen..


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## brogers (Jun 10, 2005)

Obviously there is a philosphical difference in government here.  I (and others) believe the government is not here to act like our father, to be our provider.  Redistribution of money is what those countries with the really high tax rates are about.  It's known as Socialism.  I don't like it, and that's why I like America, even though we are far more socialistic than we used to be.  Perhaps we can reverse this trend and get back to personal responsbility instead of having Uncle Sam hold everyone's hand throughout their entire life.

JJJ enjoy forking half your money over to the government so they can spend it for you?  You think the government knows what's best for you?  I don't.  I'd rather make my own decisions, than letting politicians decide for me.


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## musclepump (Jun 10, 2005)

Rwanda!


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## JJJ (Jun 10, 2005)

brogers said:
			
		

> JJJ enjoy forking half your money over to the government so they can spend it for you?  You think the government knows what's best for you?  I don't.  I'd rather make my own decisions, than letting politicians decide for me.



Some things dont work like that. Say I lived in america, and one day got ill, and needed surgery for $ 50 000 to survive. No way I could cough up that. And I know not everyone in america is covered with health insurance. 

Also, say you want to go to your friends house, do you build the road to get there yourself? (exagurated, I know, but Im trying to make a point)


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## Nick+ (Jun 10, 2005)

JJJ said:
			
		

> Some things dont work like that. Say I lived in america, and one day got ill, and needed surgery for $ 50 000 to survive. No way I could cough up that. And I know not everyone in america is covered with health insurance.
> 
> Also, say you want to go to your friends house, do you build the road to get there yourself? (exagurated, I know, but Im trying to make a point)




Good point JJJ.     One pays a lot of tax over here, but one gets a damned good service ; when there's trouble with  the teeth, or an operation needed.


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## Dale Mabry (Jun 10, 2005)

I have no basis for opinion since I have been to 2 and both are on this continent.  I have always wanted to live in Australia, though, for 2 reasons.

1)It seems like there is a lot of wilderness that no one seems to be in a rush to cut down.

2)Australian women seem to like me.  Obviously the standards are quite low, which benefits me greatly.


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## GFR (Jun 10, 2005)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Any coincidence that every one of those listed had to have their tree huggin asses saved and/or kicked by the United States in one or more past situation?



Thats a great point, list every war in witch the USA saved each of the 9 other countries.........and don't forget to list all the other countries who also fought in those wars helping to defeat whoever was the enemy at the time.


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## god hand (Jun 10, 2005)

drew.haynes said:
			
		

> I think three things when I see this thread and the posts in it.
> 
> 3. I am really starting to like God Hand even less.


I've only made 4 posts? And didnt say nothing bad about nobody!


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## GFR (Jun 10, 2005)

Murders with firearms ( per capita) top 10

1. South Africa
2.Colombia
3. Thailand
4. Zimbabwe
5. Mexico
6. Costa Rica
7. Belarus
8. USA
9. Uruguay
10. Lithuania


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## redspy (Jun 10, 2005)

From that Liberal rag The Economist......







http://www.economist.com/theworldin/international/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3372495&d=2005

By the way, how many of you who voted USA actually have a passport and have lived in other countries?


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## The__wenger (Jun 10, 2005)

_              CANADA....._


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## god hand (Jun 10, 2005)

The__wenger said:
			
		

> _              CANADA....._


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## redspy (Jun 10, 2005)

God Hand, please correct your sig.  Thanks. 

"You*'re* either with me, or against me. There is no *in between*."


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## TCAP28 (Jun 10, 2005)

USA baby.  The answer is obvious.  The diversity, the government, everything.


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## seven11 (Jun 10, 2005)

i was gonna vote sweden becuase its a great place to live in, but i live in the states and i love it here, and im not going anywere


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## Big Smoothy (Jun 11, 2005)

redspy said:
			
		

> From that Liberal rag The Economist....



The "Economist" is not liberal.


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## Nick+ (Jun 11, 2005)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> The "Economist" is not liberal.



Damn right it isn't !


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## darkt (Jun 11, 2005)

my friend you forgot to include ALBANIA on the list of options. Thats were im from. its a badass place to live. cause its almost like anarchy in there. haha. USA ALL THE WAY


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## musclepump (Jun 11, 2005)

Krakoshia!


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## god hand (Jun 11, 2005)

redspy said:
			
		

> God Hand, please correct your sig.  Thanks.
> 
> "You*'re* either with me, or against me. There is no *in between*."


Whatever u say.


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## GFR (Jun 12, 2005)

god hand said:
			
		

> Whatever u say.


I'm changing my vote, the greatest country is where god hand is not.


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## god hand (Jun 12, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> I'm changing my vote, the greatest country is where god hand is not.


You need to get that dried sperm off your lips


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## GFR (Jun 12, 2005)

god hand said:
			
		

> You need to get that dried sperm off your lips


  ........................  .......you really are gay.


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## The Monkey Man (Jun 12, 2005)

Hmmmmm...

More suspicious


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## joesmooth20 (Jun 12, 2005)

Australia is my favorite but i've only spent about a month there. I have been to allot of
other places though and that's the best in my book for allot of reasons.


Antarctica
Australia
Aruba
Bahamas
Bermuda
Costa Rica
Colombia
Dominican Rep.
England (place sux balls)
Guatemala
Haiti (during a very bad conflict)
Honduras
Jamaica
Japan
Mexico 
New Zealand
Tasmania

Soon Bahrain and Iraq


----------



## god hand (Jun 13, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> ........................  .......you really are gay.


I think u and Monkeyshit our having relations! Do what u do its none of my business.


----------



## GFR (Aug 11, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> That's not called hugging.


He must be from the Netherlands.


----------



## THEUNIT(XXL) (Aug 11, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> He must be from the Netherlands.


Then he could have been your father, but the next door dog was faster to take his dick out


----------



## Nick+ (Aug 12, 2005)

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

Samuel Johnson   (1709-1784)


----------



## MuscleM4n (Aug 12, 2005)

I am English but i voted for USA 

who voted for France? hahaha


----------



## The Monkey Man (Aug 12, 2005)

MuscleM4n said:
			
		

> who voted for France?


Canadians that are too cold and not arrogant enough


----------



## tucker01 (Aug 12, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> Canadians that are too cold and not arrogant enough




Fuck that! We hate those fuckers as much as the next person.  Just wishing they would take back these seperatist fuckers here in Quebec.


----------



## MuscleM4n (Aug 12, 2005)

I dont understand (sorry live in England don't know the situation) what's wrong with Canadians?

Sorry if i sound dumb now but i really don't know what the situation is over their.


----------



## Nick+ (Aug 12, 2005)

MuscleM4n said:
			
		

> I am English but i voted for USA
> 
> who voted for France? hahaha



I did.


----------



## GFR (Aug 14, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> Canadians that are too cold and not arrogant enough


Arrogant Canadians are called "Americans."


----------



## The Monkey Man (Aug 14, 2005)

IainDaniel said:
			
		

> seperatist fuckers here in Quebec


Those tea sipping asswipes are the ones I was talking about -


----------



## MyK (Aug 14, 2005)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Any coincidence that every one of those listed had to have their tree huggin asses saved and/or kicked by the United States in one or more past situation?



Canada has beat the us in every war or battle between the 2 countries!


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Aug 14, 2005)

Scotland!!!






Or japan..


----------



## Eggs (Aug 14, 2005)

The greatest country in what regard?

Be more specific.


----------



## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

Eggs said:
			
		

> The greatest country in what regard?
> 
> Be more specific.


No.


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

UK seeing as we have rich culture, and always have to bail France out because they know nothing about war! in terms of culture USA lags behind seeing as it is a republic (a country needs it monarch) and you have too many foreigners with different weird cultures e.g all those who come from mexico and south of usa border


----------



## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> UK seeing as we have rich culture, and always have to bail France out because they know nothing about war! in terms of culture USA lags behind seeing as it is a republic (a country needs it monarch) and you have too many foreigners with different weird cultures e.g all those who come from mexico and south of usa border


Thats funny, as I remember the United States saved your ass and Frances in WWll. As a matter of fact name a war you people won in the last 100 years without us saving your asses.


----------



## The Monkey Man (Aug 15, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Thats funny, as I remember the United States saved your ass and Frances in WWll. As a matter of fact name a war you people won in the last 100 years without us saving your asses.


They wooped the shit out of those Argentinians in the Falklands -


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

ww1, american involvement was insignificant


----------



## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> ww1, american involvement was insignificant


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

we helped your arses in korea, i seem to recall a certain war you did well in urm what was it called..... oh yeh vietnam


----------



## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> we helped your arses in korea, i seem to recall a certain war you did well in urm what was it called..... oh yeh vietnam


I said a war that was won.  

And you were of no help at all.


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

we held out against germany by ourselves compare that to russia on the eastern front who only succeeded at stalingrad because american involvement on the western front diverted german troops


----------



## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> we held out against germany by ourselves compare that to russia on the eastern front who only succeeded at stalingrad because american involvement on the western front diverted german troops


You held out long enough  for the United States to ultimately save your ass.


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

haha no help my lord, you dont know your military history, we secured the ports with naval bombardment so that north korea wouldnt overun it and bring an end to the war!!!!!!! if the british royal navy wasnt present the ports would have been taken making it damn near impossible for any sort of assault by sea!


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

without britain there would be no d day!! no plaqce for americans to launch an offensive on mainland europe.


----------



## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> haha no help my lord, you dont know your military history, we secured the ports with naval bombardment so that north korea wouldnt overun it and bring an end to the war!!!!!!! if the british royal navy wasnt present the ports would have been taken making it damn near impossible for any sort of assault by sea!


Wining a war isn't about one or two battles.....  
Without the United States you would be speaking German right now.


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

debatable! i suppose in hindsight i would have to agree but america could also have spoken german, thats if you cocked up the war.


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

but we can both agree at present we have the worst leaders, blair and bush, what a perfect couple


----------



## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> debatable! i suppose in hindsight i would have to agree but america could also have spoken german, thats if you cocked up the war.


You still haven't named one war in the last 100 years.  
An A bomb or two would have kept us from speaking German.


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

ww1 fool
falkland


----------



## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> ww1 fool
> falkland


WWl................  not quite
Falkland...................


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

but then again we dont drag ourselves into wars to combat communism


----------



## MuscleM4n (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingnp is right!

the Americans came right at the end of WW1 to claim glory....


----------



## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

MuscleM4n said:
			
		

> buildingnp is right!
> 
> the Americans came right at the end of WW1 to claim glory....


I will say it was a shared win  
But that war is almost 100 years ago......


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

ww1 of course, america came when german western front was retreating! we had em running, you werent even prepared for war in the last yr of the war


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

thank u muscleman, i know im right on this occasion


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

im just so overzealous when it comes to speaking of the glories of Great Britain


----------



## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> thank u muscleman, i know im right on this occasion


Not really but as I said I will concede that we both won that war.
So thats one win with some help 87 years ago.


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

lol american contribution was insignificant, we stopped the great schlieffen plan forcing the german dogs back into their country


----------



## Akkers (Aug 15, 2005)

Whether WW2 couldve been won without the USA is debatable. Britain only survived so long because Hitler kept switching primary targets during the Battle of Britain. Also, American and Australian troops in North Africa and Sicily diverted huge amounts of resources from Germany which probably would have made Operation Sealion a reality.


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

commonwealth troops only participated in the war because of gb, so they count as gb forces


----------



## Akkers (Aug 15, 2005)

You didnt stop the Schieffen Plan. The Schleiffen plan stopped itself. The German armys were too far strected out and the French (yes, the French) exploited this at the Battle of The Marne


----------



## MuscleM4n (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> lol american contribution was insignificant, we stopped the great schlieffen plan forcing the german dogs back into their country



Correct.

Before the Americans arrived the German troops were already retreating (this is a fact).


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

anyways american special forces arent considered to great conpared to the infamous SAS and french foreign legion


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

the BEF halted the schlieffen plan you idiot, read a book fool


----------



## Akkers (Aug 15, 2005)

As far as special forces go, the ASASR are the best in the world. That is also fact.


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

how about you talk about the battle of the bulge in the fat thread lol


----------



## Akkers (Aug 15, 2005)

And I'd be more worried about the GSG-9 than the French Foreign Legion.


----------



## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> anyways american special forces arent considered to great conpared to the infamous SAS and french foreign legion


That is debatable...............but as a whole the American Military is the best in the world, and has been for over 200 years.


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

not so, SAS considered so after the iranian embassy seige. ha


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

no, you only have better technology and resources as it goes european forces have better training and experience. yes you could win in a war obviously, only because of your sheer size,resources and technology


----------



## Akkers (Aug 15, 2005)

WW2 was all about the Russians. The Red Juggernaut kept over a million German soldiers tied up at various seiges, most notably Leningrad (which went for 950 odd days or some riculous number)


----------



## Akkers (Aug 15, 2005)

Funny fact I found out from one of my buddies - the American navy has more officers than Australia do defence force personnel. Not sure if it's true, never looked into it, but if it is, it's damn funny.


----------



## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> no, you only have better technology and resources as it goes european forces have better training and experience. yes you could win in a war obviously, only because of your sheer size,resources and technology


A win is a win......when you guys get one on your own then we can talk  
ALI ONLY WON FIGHTS BECAUSE HE HAD GREAT SPEED AND SKILL.


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

we're all english speaking and good cousins. we shouldnt be fighting each other just france.

'Poverty is like being born a Frenchman - no crime, just a damned misfortune'


----------



## Akkers (Aug 15, 2005)

Float like a butterfly sting like a bee, your hand can't hit what your eyes can't see....hahaha


----------



## MuscleM4n (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> no, you only have better technology and resources as it goes european forces have better training and experience. yes you could win in a war obviously, only because of your sheer size,resources and technology



This is true!


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

muscleman where u live in london?


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

one thing i like about America is the christian principles you live by, the uk is not as religious. i like the hospitality as well, better than canadians they are supposed to be polite but arent most of the time!


----------



## Akkers (Aug 15, 2005)

As for hospitality, I swear you won't find a more hospitable place than New Zealand. People willing to take in complete strangers, give them a meal and a bed for the night.


----------



## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> one thing i like about America is the christian principles you live by, the uk is not as religious*your lucky then* . i like the hospitality as well, better than Canadians they are supposed to be polite but aren't most of the time*I find Canadians to be much more friendly than Americans* !


America IMO does not live by true Christian values......they just like to say they do.


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

never been there, but it has a reputation for gang violence such as a group called something dogs composed of native new zealanders


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

i dunno i just found americans to be nicer people but maybe its was a good day for the americans i met


----------



## Akkers (Aug 15, 2005)

Well I was only there for a few weeks backpacking. I never ran into any trouble. I mean, seriously, there cops don't even carry guns! I thought it was a great place. Nice countryside, nice people, nice beer


----------



## MuscleM4n (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> muscleman where u live in london?



I live in West London in Ealing.

Are you from London too Buildingup?


----------



## GFR (Aug 15, 2005)

madds said:
			
		

> Well I was only there for a few weeks backpacking. I never ran into any trouble. I mean, seriously, there cops don't even carry guns! I thought it was a great place. Nice countryside, nice people, nice beer


My brother in law moved there for a year to surf, he loved it.


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

just outside london, epsom to be precise


----------



## buildingup (Aug 15, 2005)

ealing up by richmond?


----------



## MuscleM4n (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> ealing up by richmond?



yeah that's it!

I live about 30mins away from Richmond on the bus


----------



## tucker01 (Aug 15, 2005)

buildingup said:
			
		

> one thing i like about America is the christian principles you live by, the uk is not as religious. i like the hospitality as well, better than canadians they are supposed to be polite but arent most of the time!




Fuck you 

Isn't it Tea time or something


----------



## MuscleM4n (Aug 15, 2005)

I don't drink tea.....


----------



## The Monkey Man (Aug 15, 2005)

Oh terribly sorry...

Pip-pip, very well then. Off you go


----------



## MuscleM4n (Aug 15, 2005)

times change...only old fashioned people have 'tea time'.

and go to London most will talk cockney.


----------



## Eggs (Aug 16, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> No.



Ah, you unspecific bastard.

Hrmmm, what good to argue about who contributed more to the WWs in regards to England and the US... I think thats somewhat inconsequential, as we worked together ultimately to win it.

I do think that Brits shouldn't be talking trash about US involvement in that war though. We did play an important role in it, and we certainly didn't have to.

As to the worst leaders in the world, thats a stretch in the least. One who says that couldn't have taken a very serious look around the globe. B & B are the cream of the crop compared to many.


----------



## GFR (Aug 16, 2005)

Eggs said:
			
		

> Ah, you unspecific bastard.
> 
> Hrmmm, what good to argue about who contributed more to the WWs in regards to England and the US... I think thats somewhat inconsequential, as we worked together ultimately to win it.
> 
> ...


Don't be lazy................read the first post of this thread. I cant spoon feed you and I don't want to.


----------



## Eggs (Aug 16, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Don't be lazy................read the first post of this thread. I cant spoon feed you and I don't want to.



If you cant afford a few spoons, just say so and I'll send you a few


----------



## MuscleM4n (Aug 16, 2005)

'we certainly didn't have to'

you had no choice! If the Germans succeeded in capturing all of europe it would only take time to capture the rest of the world!
Basically if they weren't stop their would be united states of Germany LOL.

I am going to say something very very radical now! PLEASE PLEASE don't jump down my throat......i think it would be better if the Germans did win the war and did own the world.

yes it would be horrible them killing all etc

BUT since it would be one nation there would be no more war , no more religious hatred etc in the long run....it would be one united nation.

Do you understand my theory?


----------



## GFR (Aug 16, 2005)

Eggs said:
			
		

> If you cant afford a few spoons, just say so and I'll send you a few


I need much more than spoons.....PM me your ss# and drivers license number....name and address....


----------



## Eggs (Aug 16, 2005)

No. Just because there is one nation does not mean there is not war. What about revolution for example? Holding together such a huge area would be a logistical nightmare, and I truly doubt it was possible at the time.

Look at Rome, and various other past greats. They did not control the whole world... but just because they were massive didn't mean they got a free ride.


----------



## MuscleM4n (Aug 16, 2005)

Eggs said:
			
		

> No. Just because there is one nation does not mean there is not war. What about revolution for example? Holding together such a huge area would be a logistical nightmare, and I truly doubt it was possible at the time.
> 
> Look at Rome, and various other past greats. They did not control the whole world... but just because they were massive didn't mean they got a free ride.



yes correct, however the Nazi regime would be so strict they would make one arian race and kill all others

etc. 

Bastard Nazis


----------



## Eggs (Aug 16, 2005)

I mean, it was a good answer, but you didn't have to repeated it three times 

I'd rather there was a bit of diversity than no war. With diversity there will generally be more reasons for strife... and thus war. Its worth it though. Imagine how boring life would be under Hitler?

I wonder if he'd make me grow one of thost mustaches.


----------



## MuscleM4n (Aug 16, 2005)

War is human nature

but peace is what is needed in today's world (and NO i'm not a hippie!  )

Nah hitler would just make you dye your hair blonde at least


----------



## Eggs (Aug 16, 2005)

But his hair wasn't blonde, was it?

Now that would be classy, Hitler in a long blonde wig.

War is human nature... or perhaps not war, but our innate sense that we are right and others are wrong.

Peace. We'll have it some day... but it'll be at the end of a gun.


----------



## Akkers (Aug 16, 2005)

Eggs said:
			
		

> Peace. We'll have it some day... but it'll be at the end of a gun.



Never a truer word spoken.


----------



## dschneid (Aug 18, 2005)

TriZZle305 said:
			
		

> well damn norway just needs to take over the world


Agreed


----------



## LexusGS (Sep 5, 2005)

Out of all these countries, how the fuck could you forget about Antarctica?


----------



## JJJ (Sep 8, 2005)

Dunno if someone posted this already, but the official verdict is in (by the UN). 

The winner (5 years straight, mainly because of its human rights and huge oil wealth) is Norway.

1 Norway
2 Island
3 Australia
4 Luxembourg
5 Canada
6 Sweden
7 Switzerland
8 Ireland
9 Belgium
10 USA

Scandinavian countries kick ass, now if we only could get a little more of that global warming Ive been hearing about...

Top 3 _worst_ 

1 Niger
2 Sierra Leone
3 Burkina Faso


----------



## GFR (Sep 30, 2005)

Where is the UnitXXL on this topic???


----------



## maniclion (Sep 30, 2005)

MuscleM4n said:
			
		

> I am going to say something very very radical now! PLEASE PLEASE don't jump down my throat......i think it would be better if the Germans did win the war and did own the world.
> 
> yes it would be horrible them killing all etc
> 
> ...


Aldous Huxley understood your theory, the one about wouldn't it be great if we all thought alike and didn't have conflicting points of view.


----------



## GFR (Mar 24, 2006)

maniclion said:
			
		

> Aldous Huxley understood your theory, the one about wouldn't it be great if we all thought alike and didn't have conflicting points of view.


 [FONT=Verdana,][SIZE=-1] In Brave New World, Huxley contrives to exploit the anxieties of his bourgeois audience about _both_ Soviet Communism and Fordist American capitalism. He taps into, and then feeds, our revulsion at Pavlovian-style behavioural conditioning _and_  eugenics.

Of the three classic dystopian Novels, Brave new world is the one that hits the mark. America is more and more like it, except America has not yet [/SIZE][/FONT]eliminated warfare and poverty, art and literature still remane but they are becoming more and more stylistically lamentable every year.


----------



## Lurker (Mar 24, 2006)

I picked Norway, for standing up against hate in WWII and being civilized in its treatment of people.


----------



## fufu (Mar 25, 2006)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _To the people that picked USA, did you ever visited another country? _



Yes, I've lived in several others too.


----------



## Nick+ (Mar 25, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> [FONT=Verdana,][SIZE=-1] In Brave New World, Huxley contrives to exploit the anxieties of his bourgeois audience about _both_ Soviet Communism and Fordist American capitalism. He taps into, and then feeds, our revulsion at Pavlovian-style behavioural conditioning _and_  eugenics.
> 
> Of the three classic dystopian Novels, Brave new world is the one that hits the mark. America is more and more like it, except America has not yet [/SIZE][/FONT]eliminated warfare and poverty, art and literature still remane but they are becoming more and more stylistically lamentable every year.



The USA is a failed experiment.


----------



## BigDyl (Mar 26, 2006)

Iraqi Protestors get what they deserve:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fxi5kxzx3V0&search=military press


----------



## DOMS (Mar 26, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> Iraqi Protestors get what they deserve:
> 
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=fxi5kxzx3V0&search=military%20press


----------



## BigDyl (Mar 27, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

>




True Story


----------



## NeilPearson (Mar 27, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Any coincidence that every one of those listed had to have their tree huggin asses saved and/or kicked by the United States in one or more past situation?




So not true at all


----------



## NeilPearson (Mar 27, 2006)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> I love it when they tell I am going to hell, I think that only a certain chosen few will make it to heaven and i have less of a chance to make it since I don't follow their religion.



They don't even believe in hell


----------



## GFR (Mar 27, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> True Story


----------



## NeilPearson (Mar 27, 2006)

IainDaniel said:
			
		

> Not Canada



True... remember 1812?


----------



## NeilPearson (Mar 27, 2006)

brogers said:
			
		

> Defeated Hitler and Nazism in Germany



I believe that was Europe.  Sure the US joined at the last minute and claimed victory but it was the rest of Europe (and allied nations) that did the bulk of the work for years before the US joined.  Germany was on it's way to defeat before the US joined.


----------



## DOMS (Mar 27, 2006)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> I believe that was Europe.  Sure the US joined at the last minute and claimed victory but it was the rest of Europe (and allied nations) that did the bulk of the work for years before the US joined.  Germany was on it's way to defeat before the US joined.


Europe was on its way to defeat before the US joined up.  Germany was not on its way to defeat.  The had access to more resources than anyone fighting against them at the time.  They also had air superiority over all of Europe except over the UK.  Only the UK was holding out, but they were nearing defeat too.

Sometimes I wish the US had just sat out of WW2.


----------



## GFR (Mar 27, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Europe was on its way to defeat before the US joined up.  The only country
> that was holding out was the UK, but they were nearing defeat too.
> 
> Sometimes I wish the US had just sat out of WW2.


True.....We saved all their asses in WW2.


----------



## NeilPearson (Mar 27, 2006)

buildingup said:
			
		

> one thing i like about America is the christian principles you live by, the uk is not as religious. i like the hospitality as well, better than canadians they are supposed to be polite but arent most of the time!



 

Wow, not sure where in the US you have been.  (or where in Canada)

Having lived 8+ years in both countries, I can tell you this is completely not true.

Oh and the American Christian principles?  Please give me a break.


----------



## NeilPearson (Mar 27, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Europe was on its way to defeat before the US joined up.  Germany was not on its way to defeat.  The had access to more resources than anyone fighting against them at the time.  They also had air superiority over all of Europe except over the UK.  Only the UK was holding out, but they were nearing defeat too.
> 
> Sometimes I wish the US had just sat out of WW2.



That's what they teach you in the your US school system  (which is horrible by the way unless you can afford private school)


----------



## NeilPearson (Mar 27, 2006)

The US is probably one of the best countries in the world to live in if you make lots of money.

If you don't it is one of the worst.


----------



## DOMS (Mar 27, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> True Story




Yeah, war sucks.  But for the amount of ordinance used, the civilians casualties were low.  The only reason that they were as high as they were is that Saddam liked to place his military in civilian areas.

To put this war into perspective, I say that the US should make an example of the next country to earn our ire.  Just carpet bomb the whole damn country from one end to the other.  Take North Korea for example, it has a surface area slightly less than that of Mississippi.  It wouldn't take much ordinance to level the whole thing.


----------



## DOMS (Mar 27, 2006)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> The US is probably one of the best countries in the world to live in if you make lots of money.
> 
> If you don't it is one of the worst.



What a dumb ass you are.  You obviously have no fucking clue what it means to be poor in a worldly sense.  In the US, if you have nothing, no food, no money, absolutely nothing, you're not going to starve to death.  The only people who starve to death in the US are people that don't feel like asking for food.  How many people starve to death all around the rest of the world?  And that's just one aspect of being poor.

Your foot is so far down your throat that you're staring at your own ass.


----------



## NeilPearson (Mar 27, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> In the US, if you have nothing, no food, no money, absolutely nothing, you're not going to starve to death.



Maybe not but you are constantly looking over your shoulder wondering when your neighbor is going to start shooting at you 

When I said it's one of the worst to be poor, I am comparing it to countries that aren't 3rd world countries.  I would much, much rather be poor in Canada, Sweden, Norway, England, France, Germany, Russia (well maybe not Russia), etc...  These are the countries this thread is comparing the US to.... not Ethiopia.


----------



## GFR (Mar 27, 2006)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> Maybe not but you are constantly looking over your shoulder wondering when your neighbor is going to start shooting at you
> 
> When I said it's one of the worst to be poor, I am comparing it to countries that aren't 3rd world countries.  I would much, much rather be poor in Canada, Sweden, Norway, England, France, Germany, Russia (well maybe not Russia), etc...  These are the countries this thread is comparing the US to.... not Ethiopia.


----------



## bio-chem (Mar 27, 2006)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> I believe that was Europe.  Sure the US joined at the last minute and claimed victory but it was the rest of Europe (and allied nations) that did the bulk of the work for years before the US joined.  Germany was on it's way to defeat before the US joined.



bulk of the work? you mean like handing over whole countries to hitlers army without a fight.  or the fact the french had the largest retreating army in the history of the world.  why was it winston churchhill said he had his greatest night of sleep the day he heard of pearl harbor? oh yeah, because then he knew america would be joining the war with the allies.  before d-day how well did the all british invasion of france go?  this is not american pride from a poor public school system showing. this is just fact.


----------



## BigDyl (Mar 27, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Yeah, war sucks.  But for the amount of ordinance used, the civilians casualties were low.  The only reason that they were as high as they were is that Saddam liked to place his military in civilian areas.
> 
> To put this war into perspective, I say that the US should make an example of the next country to earn our ire.  Just carpet bomb the whole damn country from one end to the other.  Take North Korea for example, it has a surface area slightly less than that of Mississippi.  It wouldn't take much ordinance to level the whole thing.





True Story, because "wars are bad" that justifies all atrocities.


----------



## NeilPearson (Mar 27, 2006)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> bulk of the work? you mean like handing over whole countries to hitlers army without a fight.  or the fact the french had the largest retreating army in the history of the world.  why was it winston churchhill said he had his greatest night of sleep the day he heard of pearl harbor? oh yeah, because then he knew america would be joining the war with the allies.  before d-day how well did the all british invasion of france go?  this is not american pride from a poor public school system showing. this is just fact.



blah, blah, blah... Germany was weak after all the years of fighting.  They didn't hand over countries without a fight... well maybe France did.  Russia was all about kicking some German ass though.


----------



## ALBOB (Mar 27, 2006)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> blah, blah, blah... Germany was weak after all the years of fighting.  They didn't hand over countries without a fight... well maybe France did.  Russia was all about kicking some German ass though.



OK, we've established your take on our pathetic American school system, where exactly are you getting your "facts" from?


----------



## NeilPearson (Mar 27, 2006)

ALBOB said:
			
		

> OK, we've established your take on our pathetic American school system, where exactly are you getting your "facts" from?



duh, I'm making them up to piss people off


----------



## Doublebase (Mar 27, 2006)

I never lived or visited another country.


----------



## DOMS (Mar 27, 2006)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> Maybe not but you are constantly looking over your shoulder wondering when your neighbor is going to start shooting at you
> 
> When I said it's one of the worst to be poor, I am comparing it to countries that aren't 3rd world countries.  I would much, much rather be poor in Canada, Sweden, Norway, England, France, Germany, Russia (well maybe not Russia), etc...  These are the countries this thread is comparing the US to.... not Ethiopia.


"Maybe not Russia"?  Here again you're talking about something you don't seem to know much about.  Russia is a definite "no."  Germany has an unemployment of almost 12% and France has an unemployment rate of 10%.   You're more likely to _*be *_poor in any of those countries.  Your odds of rising above poverty in these countries is slim to none.

Once again, you, like so many others, are comparing apples to oranges.  Take Norway for example.  They have a population of about 4.5 million.  My home county of Los Angeles has a population of over 11 million.  And that's just one county in this country.  It's much easier to support a small group in a small geographic location than one the population and size of the US.  Yes, you're odds of being poor in the those small countries is slimmer than in the US, but your odds of rising in station are also just as slim.

Add to that the homogeneous nature of countries like Norway.  Norway is 100% Norwegian except 20,000 Sami.  In the US we have to deal with the minorities who skew all the statistics.  Minorities account for just over 18% of the population, most of which live under the poverty level.

No country has more opportunities to rise above poverty than the US.  None.  Period.  

Lastly, have you ever actually been poor?  Or are talking about something which you really know little about?


----------



## GFR (Mar 27, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> No country has more opportunities to rise above poverty than the US.  None.  Period.


Prove it, I want details of all the  188 other countries employment, average income, cost of living, opportunities ect...


----------



## NeilPearson (Mar 27, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> "Maybe not Russia"?  Here again you're talking about something you don't seem to know much about.  Russia is a definite "no."  Germany has an unemployment of almost 12% and France has an unemployment rate of 10%.   You're more likely to _*be *_poor in any of those countries.  Your odds of rising above poverty in these countries is slim to none.
> 
> Once again, you, like so many others, are comparing apples to oranges.  Take Norway for example.  They have a population of about 4.5 million.  My home county of Los Angeles has a population of over 11 million.  And that's just one county in this country.  It's much easier to support a small group in a small geographic location than one the population and size of the US.  Yes, you're odds of being poor in the those small countries is slimmer than in the US, but your odds of rising in station are also just as slim.
> 
> ...



I'm not referring to the unemployment rate.  There are many people living in areas of the US that are employed but are still very poor.  What I am talking about is this... Drive to the poor areas of Phoenix (where I live) or Chicago or Detroit and have a look at how those people live.  Many are employed.  Many are single parents working 2 or 3 jobs to try and support themselves in a gang infested neighborhood.  You really think it is that easy for these people to rise above it?  Education and high paying jobs just don't come real easy for these people.... and there are a lot of them.

The truth is, I would rather be unemployed in many of those listed countries than employed in the US making < $30,000.  The neighorhoods are better.  They have less crime.  They are cleaner.  There are more government programs to help people.  Unemployed Canadians can have a standard of living that is quite a bit better than poor employed Americans.

Family and friends visit me from Canada and I often take them for a drive to south Phoenix to see the neighborhoods... because they have never seen people live like that except on tv.  There just aren't neighborhoods like that in western Canada where they are from.  I also take them to neighborhoods like Paradise Valley and Scottsdale because there aren't really neighorhoods like that either.  The US has extreme highs and lows.  Canada is much more middle class without the extremes either way.... which is why I am here in the US.  I had the education and the skillset to make more than the average American... and my lifestyle in the US is better than it would be in Canada.  If I was poor though, I would much rather be in Canada.

And whether or not I was ever poor is really irrelevant but yes, I was poor for a while as a kid in a single parent home.  But that was in Canada and although I was in one of the poorest areas of the town I grew up in, there were no gangs or violence and I was safe to walk around at night.  So yeah, I was poor in Canada but I have never been poor like the poor in the US.  

My poor Canadian lifestyle was kind of middle class by Canadian standards.

And don't blame it on minority groups.  Canada have just as many if not more minorities and we don't see slums up there like we do in the US.


----------



## Dale Mabry (Mar 27, 2006)

Aside from the US, the only other place I would live is in Canada.  I found the people in Canada to be nicer, and the whole scene there to be cool.  This is in Montreal, of course.

I would still choose the US, though.  I think the better opportunities are here, financially.  The women in Canada are far better than the ones in the US, on an order of at least 10 times better in essentially every category you could possibly think of.  Looks, attitude, looks, friendliness, looks, breasts, ass, you name it they are better.  I could do without the smoking, though.


----------



## brogers (Mar 27, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Yeah, war sucks. But for the amount of ordinance used, the civilians casualties were low. The only reason that they were as high as they were is that Saddam liked to place his military in civilian areas.
> 
> To put this war into perspective, I say that the US should make an example of the next country to earn our ire. Just carpet bomb the whole damn country from one end to the other. Take North Korea for example, it has a surface area slightly less than that of Mississippi. It wouldn't take much ordinance to level the whole thing.


 
Sadaam killed tons of civilians, yet the largely liberal, "America is wrong, America is bad" apologist morons try to point out any bad thing that happens, despite the fact we are trying our best to minimize it.  It's absolutely disgusting.  Where were they when Sadaam's fedayeen soldiers were cutting the heads off accused prostitutes/adulterers in the streets?  When the kurds were being gassed?  When girls were raped by his government? 

Our efforts to reduce causalities are vastly greater than any other country in the history of the world has ever made.  We have given more money than any other nation, yet we still have idiots trying to shed a bad light on us.  

Love it or leave it.


----------



## ALBOB (Mar 27, 2006)

brogers said:
			
		

> Sadaam killed tons of civilians, yet the largely liberal, "America is wrong, America is bad" apologist morons try to point out any bad thing that happens, despite the fact we are trying our best to minimize it.  It's absolutely disgusting.  Where were they when Sadaam's fedayeen soldiers were cutting the heads off accused prostitutes/adulterers in the streets?  When the kurds were being gassed?  When girls were raped by his government?
> 
> Our efforts to reduce causalities are vastly greater than any other country in the history of the world has ever made.  We have given more money than any other nation, yet we still have idiots trying to shed a bad light on us.
> 
> Love it or leave it.



Hope you're wearing your lead lined underwear because those "liberal apologists" are getting ready to nuke you. 

Cue: Decker, Mr. Snafu, Foremanrules, BigDyl, etc.


----------



## lnvanry (Mar 27, 2006)

I had to move somewhere outside home (US) I would pick Austalia..I've never been there though.  I can think of more beautiful places, but a lot of those paradise like countries (Greek Island/souther Spain etc.) have no work amibition.

Canada would be close second, but its got to be fucking cold up there


----------



## ALBOB (Mar 27, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> I had to move somewhere outside home (US) I would pick Austalia..I've never been there though.  I can think of more beautiful places, but a lot of those paradise like countries (Greek Island/souther Spain etc.) have no work amibition.
> 
> Canada would be close second, but its got to be fucking cold up there



Never checked into it, but I've heard Australia has very tough imigration laws.  They love tourists, but definitely make sure they go home after their trip is over.


----------



## Decker (Mar 27, 2006)

brogers said:
			
		

> Sadaam killed tons of civilians, yet the largely liberal, "America is wrong, America is bad" apologist morons try to point out any bad thing that happens, despite the fact we are trying our best to minimize it. It's absolutely disgusting. Where were they when Sadaam's fedayeen soldiers were cutting the heads off accused prostitutes/adulterers in the streets? When the kurds were being gassed? When girls were raped by his government? ....


Thank you Albob, I'll take it from here.

I was at the same place George Bush Sr. was at when this shit happened, out playing golf.

Of course I was a kid and he was a President who let this shit happen after pulling US support for the Kurdish uprising.

Of course when I learned of the Kurdish gassing, I stopped my round of golf and went home feeling a litttle bad.

I hear Bush Sr. went for 36 holes that day.


----------



## ALBOB (Mar 27, 2006)

Decker said:
			
		

> I hear Bush Sr. went for 36 holes that day.



I wonder what he shot?


----------



## Decker (Mar 27, 2006)

ALBOB said:
			
		

> I wonder what he shot?


Almost every president plays golf but you never hear the scores.  I did hear that Clinton was a cheater, but hell, back in those heady days everything he did was reviled.


----------



## ALBOB (Mar 27, 2006)

Decker said:
			
		

> Almost every president plays golf but you never hear the scores.  I did hear that Clinton was a cheater, but hell, back in those heady days everything he did was reviled.



I actually heard Slick Willy was pretty good.  Golf - the only damn thing I could ever respect that man for. 

Ah, who am I kidding?  He used his position to get laid.  I'm enough of a disgusting pig to respect that too.  I just wish he would have done the right thing and said, "Yeah, I screwed her.  So what?  Politicians have been screwing their constituents for as long as there have been politicians.  Get over it."  Now THAT would have been respectable." 

P.S.  They can't post Gerald Ford's scores.  They're still being calculated.


----------



## Decker (Mar 27, 2006)

ALBOB said:
			
		

> I actually heard Slick Willy was pretty good. Golf - the only damn thing I could ever respect that man for.
> 
> Ah, who am I kidding? He used his position to get laid. I'm enough of a disgusting pig to respect that too. I just wish he would have done the right thing and said, "Yeah, I screwed her. So what? Politicians have been screwing their constituents for as long as there have been politicians. Get over it." Now THAT would have been respectable."
> 
> P.S. They can't post Gerald Ford's scores. They're still being calculated.


I always wondered why people hated Clinton viscerally.  Here's a guy who's smarter than anyone, a polished speaker, never caught at a loss for words...I mean don't you want someone that can think on his feet as president?  He loved the ladies though.  Guilty as charged.

Hey Al--good one on Ford hahahaha--have you ever seen anything as funny as Pres. Ford falling down the stairs of Airforce 1?  I think shit like that is hilarious...I'm a Stooges fan myself.


----------



## ALBOB (Mar 27, 2006)

Decker said:
			
		

> I always wondered why people hated Clinton viscerally.  Here's a guy who's smarter than anyone, a polished speaker, never caught at a loss for words...I mean don't you want someone that can think on his feet as president?  He loved the ladies though.  Guilty as charged.
> 
> Hey Al--good one on Ford hahahaha--have you ever seen anything as funny as Pres. Ford falling down the stairs of Airforce 1?  I think shit like that is hilarious...I'm a Stooges fan myself.



"Viscerally" is the operative word.  Nothing I could really put my finger on, I just HATE him.  To my very core.  Can't even WATCH him speak, much less listen.  Now his other half is in front of every camera in the country spewing her vile garbage.  Don't even bother asking for facts, figures, examples, etc., I have none.  Just a deep seated HATE for those two.  Kind of how some on your side feel about GWB.  Calgon take me away. 

The only thing as funny as him tumbling down the stairs of Air Force One is him doing a full gainer on an icy sidewalk.  In that respect he was definitely the fourth stooge.


----------



## Nick+ (Mar 27, 2006)

I never cease to be amazed by you Americans.........


----------



## Dale Mabry (Mar 27, 2006)

ALBOB said:
			
		

> I wonder what he shot?




Probably a black guy.


----------



## BigDyl (Mar 27, 2006)

ALBOB said:
			
		

> "Viscerally" is the operative word.  Nothing I could really put my finger on, I just HATE him.  To my very core.  Can't even WATCH him speak, much less listen.  Now his other half is in front of every camera in the country spewing her vile garbage.  Don't even bother asking for facts, figures, examples, etc., I have none.  Just a deep seated HATE for those two.  Kind of how some on your side feel about GWB.  Calgon take me away.
> 
> The only thing as funny as him tumbling down the stairs of Air Force One is him doing a full gainer on an icy sidewalk.  In that respect he was definitely the fourth stooge.



True Story, but we actually have a _reason _to dislike _GW_.


----------



## maniclion (Mar 27, 2006)

Hawaii is the best country in the World.


----------



## DOMS (Mar 27, 2006)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> ....
> 
> The truth is, I would rather be unemployed in many of those listed countries than employed in the US making < $30,000. The neighorhoods are better. They have less crime. They are cleaner. There are more government programs to help people. Unemployed Canadians can have a standard of living that is quite a bit better than poor employed Americans.
> 
> ...



I misunderstood your measure of being poor.  I thought you were talking about access to food and opportunities to rise above poverty.  Now I see you're referring to the quality of neighborhoods.

"And don't blame it on minority groups."  Bullshit.  It all comes down to minorities.  They constitute 18% of the population but commit over 60% of all murders, not to mention all other violent crimes.


----------



## NeilPearson (Mar 27, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> "And don't blame it on minority groups."  Bullshit.  It all comes down to minorities.  They constitute 18% of the population but commit over 60% of all murders, not to mention all other violent crimes.



Funny, they don't seem to cause trouble in Canada.


----------



## DOMS (Mar 27, 2006)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> Funny, they don't seem to cause trouble in Canada.



They are in the US.


----------



## NeilPearson (Mar 27, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> They are in the US.



They have them in Canada too


----------



## DOMS (Mar 27, 2006)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> They have them in Canada too



Do you even know what the racial profile of Canada is?  Or what percentage of crimes are committed by each race?

I doubt it.


----------



## adrenaline (Mar 27, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Any coincidence that every one of those listed had to have their tree huggin asses saved and/or kicked by the United States in one or more past situation?



Not true, in fact when the U.S. tried to invade Canada way back when, the Canadians drove them back with their tails between their legs. There has been no conflict between the 2 countries since.


----------



## lnvanry (Mar 27, 2006)

wasn't that back in 1800's?


----------



## DOMS (Mar 27, 2006)

adrenaline said:
			
		

> Not true, in fact when the U.S. tried to invade Canada way back when, the Canadians drove them back with their tails between their legs. There has been no conflict between the 2 countries since.



Nice bullshit you're spewing there.  The only war of note between the (nascent) US and "Canada" was the war of 1812.  The US wasn't fighting Canada, it was fighting the British who owned Canada at the time.  It was a US-British war.  If a war was fought now, Canada wouldn't last more than a week.  The Canadian population inhabits a small percentage of the land and lacks a deep industrial and agricultural base.


----------



## DOMS (Mar 27, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> wasn't that back in 1800's?



1812 to be exact.


----------



## min0 lee (Mar 27, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Nice bullshit you're spewing there. The only war of note between the (nascent) US and "Canada" was the war of 1812. The US wasn't fighting Canada, it was fighting the British who owned Canada at the time. It was a US-British war. If a war was fought now, Canada wouldn't last more than a week. The Canadian population inhabits a small percentage of the land and lacks a deep industrial and agricultural base.


 
You ever debate in school Doms? Your pretty good.


----------



## GFR (Mar 27, 2006)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> You ever debate in school Doms? Your pretty good.


----------



## BigDyl (Mar 27, 2006)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> You ever debate in school Doms? Your pretty good.


----------



## min0 lee (Mar 27, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

>


 
Were you ever a bully in school Foreman? Your crazy.


----------



## DOMS (Mar 27, 2006)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> You ever debate in school Doms? Your pretty good.



Thanks for the kind words, min0.

I came close once, but ultimately declined the teacher's offer.  I regret that decision.


----------



## min0 lee (Mar 27, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

>


Were you ever bullied in school Big? I want to spank you.


----------



## DOMS (Mar 27, 2006)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> Were ever a bully in school Foreman? Your crazy.



Apparently, if rebuttals consist of more than a picture, "ghey", or some variation of "owned", they don't seem to think that it counts as debating.


----------



## GFR (Mar 27, 2006)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> Were ever a bully in school Foreman? Your crazy.


No, but I beat a few up for fun.


----------



## GFR (Mar 27, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Apparently, if rebuttals consist of more than a picture, "ghey", or some variation of "owned", they don't seem to think that it counts as debating.


Ghey


----------



## CowPimp (Mar 27, 2006)

It's not on there, but I think Switzerland would be an awesome place to live:


Income tax is incredibly low.  I believe 11% is the exact number.

Their form of democracy makes more sense to me.  It's not a winner take all system.  If, for example, a party were to receive 30% of the votes, they would get some level of representation in congress.

It borders Italy, France, and Germany.  This makes it pretty culturally diverse.

It is SOOOO clean, it is almost disgusting.  They essentially giftwrap their garbage; I'm not kidding...

Lots of natural beauty: mountains, lakes, clear skies, etc.

They are neutral.  They don't get involved in everyone else's affairs.

Higher per capita income in the world.

Marijuana can be purchased in stores.


----------



## NeilPearson (Mar 27, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> The Canadian population inhabits a small percentage of the land and lacks a deep industrial and agricultural base.



There is a huge agricultural base... ever been to Alberta or Saskatchewan?

Not to mention more oil in Alberta than Iraq.  The whole country is booming big time.


----------



## brogers (Mar 27, 2006)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> There is a huge agricultural base... ever been to Alberta or Saskatchewan?
> 
> Not to mention more oil in Alberta than Iraq. The whole country is booming big time.


 
Why don't you move there, since it's so great?  The last thing we need is another ungrateful, out-of-touch-with-reality libtard.


----------



## CowPimp (Mar 27, 2006)

brogers said:
			
		

> Why don't you move there, since it's so great?  The last thing we need is another ungrateful, out-of-touch-with-reality libtard.



I hate that fucking attitude.  You think the country is so great that people can't complain and suggest improvements?  You get the fuck out.  Some people are trying to improve this country; you are just blindly accepting it as the greatest country there is just because you were born there.  That makes no sense.


----------



## BigDyl (Mar 27, 2006)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> Were you ever bullied in school Big? I want to spank you.




I'm calling the police right now.


----------



## BigDyl (Mar 27, 2006)

brogers said:
			
		

> Why don't you move there, since it's so great?  The last thing we need is another ungrateful, out-of-touch-with-reality libtard.





True Story, anyone who disagree's with you should move to another country.


----------



## MyK (Mar 27, 2006)

I was born and raised in England, and lived in Canada on the border of the US for the last 13 years.

As far as this debate goes my opinoin is very strongly alligned with NeilPearson. Sorry you guys but germany was on the brink of defeat when the US came in. and the only reason why the US is the US is because the british empire was spread to thin with wars in Africa, India, and I think China too when they went to war for independence.

Britain was very weak coming out of WW2 which gave the US the opportunity to become the worlds new superpower, britain just didnt have the resources to compete. Canada does have the resources, however Canada lacks a strong population base to take advantage.

Canada is one huge middle class compared to the large class seperation the states has. its fine for college grads who make about 50Gs a year, but if you want more the G'vnt taxs your ass and give your money to the lower class creating an income equilibrium.

I dont know what to tell you, Im currently deciding where I want to live. the US and Canada both have appealing qualities to me and factors that deter me. I dont think one nation is better, I just think they're completely different on so many levels!


----------



## lnvanry (Mar 27, 2006)

MyK said:
			
		

> I was born and raised in England, and lived in Canada on the border of the US for the last 13 years.
> 
> As far as this debate goes my opinoin is very strongly alligned with NeilPearson. Sorry you guys but germany was on the brink of defeat when the US came in. and the only reason why the US is the US is because the british empire was spread to thin with wars in Africa, India, and I think China too when they went to war for independence.
> 
> ...


----------



## brogers (Mar 27, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> True Story, anyone who disagree's with you should move to another country.


 
Anyone who can't appreciate how good they have it here should move elsewhere. If you think it's better in Canada, move there. Insulting the place you choose to live in, and are reaping benefits from, is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

It isn't disagreeing with some political aspect, it's saying things like "America is the most evil and arrogant nation in the history of the world." If you believe that, yet still choose to live amongs us arrogant evildoers, and support our evil arrogant government, you are far worse than those you accuse of being evil, and whatever else. In your own mind you know it's wrong, yet you still choose to be a part of it.

Nothing you have EVER said has been constructive. You post pictures of the victims of war (Where were you when Saddam was doing that shit on purpose?). You don't disagree, you spew hate. Nothing you have ever said could be construed as a rational argument, you haven't even made an argument! You just bitch and moan, you have no solution, you have no alternative, you whine and complain mindlessly.



By the way, prefacing everything with "True Story" really makes you look like a moron.


----------



## brogers (Mar 27, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> I hate that fucking attitude. You think the country is so great that people can't complain and suggest improvements? You get the fuck out. Some people are trying to improve this country; you are just blindly accepting it as the greatest country there is just because you were born there. That makes no sense.


 
You think these people are trying to improve the country by bashing it? You think calling the USA the most evil and arrogant nation in history is suggesting improvements?

By the way, you share the trait of hypocrisy with the ungrateful human garbage bashing this coutnry.  I should "Get the fuck out" because telling someone to get out is the wrong attitude?  Right.  I guess we're wrong together then huh.


----------



## brogers (Mar 27, 2006)

MyK said:
			
		

> I was born and raised in England, and lived in Canada on the border of the US for the last 13 years.
> 
> As far as this debate goes my opinoin is very strongly alligned with NeilPearson. Sorry you guys but germany was on the brink of defeat when the US came in. and the only reason why the US is the US is because the british empire was spread to thin with wars in Africa, India, and I think China too when they went to war for independence.
> 
> ...


 
If Europe was able to defend itself, they wouldn't have gotten their ass kicked in the first place.


----------



## lnvanry (Mar 27, 2006)

chill Brogers....

bigdyl is Joker...you can't take hime seriously

cowpimp is just a toker...his activism consists of smoking in a circle w/ some of his hippie friends and talking about about how the man has too much control.

Myk is ok...at least he changed that wierd avatar of the lip disc guy

yes we all know Europe needed us in WWII...I don't think anyone is arguing it except for the self made Aussie (can't remember his name though.)


try to keep a sense of humor when discussing on this forum.  you'll go crazy if you don't.  I learned that a long time ago.


----------



## NeilPearson (Mar 27, 2006)

brogers said:
			
		

> Why don't you move there, since it's so great?  The last thing we need is another ungrateful, out-of-touch-with-reality libtard.




I left Canada to escape from the liberal Canadian government... that and the cold.  I like the US.  I have a great quality of life here because I make good money.  I just think it would be a crappy place to be poor.  That doesn't mean I don't like it.


----------



## bio-chem (Mar 27, 2006)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> blah, blah, blah... Germany was weak after all the years of fighting.  They didn't hand over countries without a fight... well maybe France did.  Russia was all about kicking some German ass though.


i think  you need to look over history again before you speak. check out how much land hitler basically anexed without even a shot fired.


----------



## MyK (Mar 28, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> Myk is ok...at least he changed that wierd avatar of the lip disc guy



peeps stoped talking to me, so I had to change it!  .............


----------



## MyK (Mar 28, 2006)

brogers said:
			
		

> If Europe was able to defend itself, they wouldn't have gotten their ass kicked in the first place.



K, stop! what the fuck are you trying to say???????


----------



## min0 lee (Mar 28, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> try to keep a sense of humor when discussing on this forum. you'll go crazy if you don't. I learned that a long time ago.


 
It works in real life also.


----------



## min0 lee (Mar 28, 2006)

brogers said:
			
		

> By the way, prefacing everything with "True Story" really makes you look like a moron.


 
I have personally spoken to him and he's a nice educated guy who likes to have fun on the net. 

It's just the net, no bodily harm was done...


----------



## Decker (Mar 28, 2006)

MyK said:
			
		

> ....only reason why the US is the US is because the british empire was spread to thin with wars in Africa, India, and I think China too when they went to war for independence.
> 
> Britain was very weak coming out of WW2 which gave the US the opportunity to become the worlds new superpower, britain just didnt have the resources to compete.....


I agree with this that the US was not a world superpower until the conclusion of WWII and the other superpowers were in no position to challenge the US's designs. 

I like the US. It's my home. But due to many complex factors that appreciation is best embodied by the Jeffersonian quote, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." To me, that means always be wary of one's government and critical. Always be critical to improve what is and do not trust the better angels of our elected leaders.

That said, I wouldn't mind living in Canada only b/c, living in WI, I already know what the weather's like. Isn't weed legal there too? That's one more checkmark on the plus side.


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## NeilPearson (Mar 28, 2006)

Decker said:
			
		

> I agree with this that the US was not a world superpower until the conclusion of WWII and the other superpowers were in no position to challenge the US's designs.
> 
> I like the US. It's my home. But due to many complex factors that appreciation is best embodied by the Jeffersonian quote, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." To me, that means always be wary of one's government and critical. Always be critical to improve what is and do not trust the better angels of our elected leaders.
> 
> That said, I wouldn't mind living in Canada only b/c, living in WI, I already know what the weather's like. Isn't weed legal there too? That's one more checkmark on the plus side.




Nope weed is not legal there.


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## Decker (Mar 28, 2006)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> Nope weed is not legal there.


Then fuck it...what good is Canada? No weed, no deal. What the hell was I thinking? "Canada"...that even sounds made up.


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## GFR (Mar 28, 2006)

brogers said:
			
		

> Anyone who can't appreciate how good they have it here should move elsewhere. If you think it's better in Canada, move there. Insulting the place you choose to live in, and are reaping benefits from, is the worst kind of hypocrisy.
> 
> It isn't disagreeing with some political aspect, it's saying things like "America is the most evil and arrogant nation in the history of the world." If you believe that, yet still choose to live amongs us arrogant evildoers, and support our evil arrogant government, you are far worse than those you accuse of being evil, and whatever else. In your own mind you know it's wrong, yet you still choose to be a part of it.
> 
> ...


True story, you are a slave and the best bootlicker I know.


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## CowPimp (Mar 28, 2006)

brogers said:
			
		

> You think these people are trying to improve the country by bashing it? You think calling the USA the most evil and arrogant nation in history is suggesting improvements?
> 
> By the way, you share the trait of hypocrisy with the ungrateful human garbage bashing this coutnry.  I should "Get the fuck out" because telling someone to get out is the wrong attitude?  Right.  I guess we're wrong together then huh.



I don't really care if you leave.  I was obviously just saying that for effect.  The point is that this country is not perfect.  If people are angry, then they are allowed to voice their opinion; you have to deal with it and so do I.  If you think this is the greatest country in the world without competition, then you are delusional, ignorant, or both.  Fine if think it is the greatest nation, but there are certainly other nations that will give it a run for its money.

The other problem with telling people to move is that it's not just that simple.  I'm broke as shit.  I don't have the money to just move out of the country, but I am sure as Hell considering it.  It just simply isn't feasible at this time.  There are probably a lot of people who share the same problem.

My beef is with the government, not the people.  There are a lot of morons here, but that's the case everywhere.  It is my opinion that this country supports and conducts acts of terrorism, but what can I really do about it without devoting my life to such a cause?  Even then it will probably do nothing.


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## Dale Mabry (Mar 28, 2006)

What is interesting to me is that Republicans seem to be distancing themselves from Bush, especially with this election year.  Should be interesting what these traitors have to say.  I assume they are traitors because they disagree with the president on such things as the ports deal that went sour.


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## Decker (Mar 28, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> ...It is my opinion that this country supports and conducts acts of terrorism, but what can I really do about it without devoting my life to such a cause? Even then it will probably do nothing.


It's not just your opinion my friend:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6802629/site/newsweek/

Reagan utilized these terrorist tactics (that Bush is using) in El Salvador. The US does not acknowledge the jurisdiction of the World Court b/c we are #1 on the docket for terrorist activity in Nicaragua (we mined their harbors).  This is why Hussein is on trial in Iraq instead of before the World Court--the US controls the Iraqi courts but not the World Court.

The Archie Bunker/US does no wrong mentality is counterproductive. No one wins through sycophantic myopia.

What can we do? The public will can still be known. Letters, protests, etc. It's a cumulative thing. Every time I think of giving up, I think of the bastards in the current administration that flout the law and send other people's children to die for personal gain and power aggrandizement.

Unfortunately, propaganda works. Wave the flag, thump the bible and point the accusatory finger at opponents...that recipe for oppression is very effective. Remember, it's the interests of a small elitest/wealthy few versus the common good.


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## BigDyl (Mar 28, 2006)

True Story, US is the biggest terrorist nation in the world.


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## BigDyl (Mar 28, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> I don't really care if you leave.  I was obviously just saying that for effect.  The point is that this country is not perfect.  If people are angry, then they are allowed to voice their opinion; you have to deal with it and so do I.  If you think this is the greatest country in the world without competition, then you are delusional, ignorant, or both.  Fine if think it is the greatest nation, but there are certainly other nations that will give it a run for its money.
> 
> The other problem with telling people to move is that it's not just that simple.  I'm broke as shit.  I don't have the money to just move out of the country, but I am sure as Hell considering it.  It just simply isn't feasible at this time.  There are probably a lot of people who share the same problem.
> 
> My beef is with the government, not the people.  There are a lot of morons here, but that's the case everywhere.  It is my opinion that this country supports and conducts acts of terrorism, but what can I really do about it without devoting my life to such a cause?  Even then it will probably do nothing.




We gotta meet up before you go.


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## ALBOB (Mar 28, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> True Story, US is the biggest terrorist nation in the world.



Not true.  If it's THEM doing it to US, they're terrorists.  If it's US doing it to THEM, we're liberators.  Yaaaaaaaaay US.


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## lnvanry (Mar 28, 2006)

ALBOB said:
			
		

> Not true. If it's THEM doing it to US, they're terrorists. If it's US doing it to THEM, we're liberators. Yaaaaaaaaay US.




good thing were not them


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## GFR (Mar 28, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> True Story, US is the biggest terrorist nation in the world.


I agree 100%, and we have the best propaganda system in the world also.


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## lnvanry (Mar 28, 2006)

propaganda is just another word for persuasion.


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## GFR (Mar 28, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> propaganda is just another word for persuasion.


Propaganda within Nazi Germany was taken to a new and frequently perverse level. Hitler was very aware of the value of good propaganda and he appointed  Joseph Goebbels as head of propaganda.​ 


 Propaganda is the art of persuasion - persuading others that your 'side of the story' is correct. Propaganda might take the form of persuading others that your military might is too great to be challenged; that your political might within a nation is too great or popular to challenge etc. In  Nazi Germany, Dr Joseph Goebbels was in charge of propaganda. Goebbels official title was Minister of Propaganda and National Enlightenment.​ 

 As Minister of Enlightenment, Goebbels  had two main tasks:​ 
 to ensure nobody in Germany     could read or see anything that was hostile or damaging to the Nazi Party.​
 to ensure that the views of the     Nazis were put across in the most persuasive manner possible. ​
 To ensure success, Goebbels had to work with the SS and Gestapo and Albert Speer. The former hunted out those who might produce articles defamatory to the Nazis and Hitler while Speer helped Goebbels with public displays of propaganda.​ To ensure that everybody thought in the correct manner, Goebbels set up the Reich Chamber of Commerce in 1933. This organisation dealt with literature, art, music, radio, film, newspapers etc. To produce anything that was in these groups, you had to be a member of the Reich Chamber. The Nazi Party decided if you had the right credentials to be a member. Any person who was not admitted was not allowed to have any work published or performed. Disobedience brought with it severe punishments. As a result of this policy,  Nazi Germany introduced a system of censorship. You could only read, see and hear what the Nazis wanted you to read, see and hear. In this way, if you believed what you were told, the Nazi leaders logically assumed that opposition to their rule would be very small and practiced only by those on the very extreme who would be easy to catch.​ Hitler came to power in January 1933. By May 1933, the Nazi Party felt sufficiently strong to publicly demonstrate where their beliefs were going when Goebbels organised the first of the infamous book burning episodes.  Books that did not match the Nazi ideal was burnt in public - loyal Nazis ransacked libraries to remove the 'offending' books. "Where one burns books, one eventually burns people" commented the author Brecht.   ​ The same approach was used in films. The Nazis controlled film production. Films released to the public concentrated on certain issues : the Jews; the greatness of Hitler; the way of life for a true Nazi especially children, and as World War Two approached, how badly Germans who lived in countries in Eastern Europe were treated. Leni Riefenstahl was given a free hand in producing Nazi propaganda films. A young film producer, she had impressed Hitler with her ability. It was Riefenstahl who made "Triumph of Will" - considered one of the greatest of propaganda films despite its contents. ​ What was seen in the cinemas was controlled. "Hitlerjunge Quex" was made in 1933. This film told the story of a boy brought up in a communist family in Germany who broke away from this background, joined the  Hitler Youth and was murdered by the Communists in Germany for doing so. "The Eternal Jew" was a film that vilified the  Jews - comparing the Jews in Europe to a hoard of rats, spreading disease etc. "Tarzan" films were banned because the Nazis frowned on so little clothing being worn especially by women. One film that celebrated the might of the German Navy was not screened as it showed a drunken German sailor. However, the cinemas were not full of serious films with a political message. Goebbels ordered that many comedies should be made to give Germany a 'lighter' look.​ The ensure that everybody could hear Hitler speak, Goebbels organised the sale of cheap radios. these were called the "People's Receiver" and they cost only 76 marks. A smaller version cost just 35 marks. Goebbels believed that if Hitler was to give speeches, the people should be able to him. Loud speakers were put up in streets so that people could not avoid any speeches by the Fuhrer. Cafes and other such properties were ordered to play in public speeches by Hitler.​ Goebbels and his skill at masterminding propaganda is best remembered for his night time displays at Nuremberg. Here, he and Speer, organised rallies that were designed to show to the world the might of the Nazi nation. In August of each year, huge rallies were held at Nuremberg. Arenas to hold 400,000 people were built. In the famous night time displays, 150 search lights surrounded the main arena and were lit up vertically into the night sky. Their light could be seen over 100 kilometres away in what a British politician, Sir Neville Henderson, called a "cathedral of light".   ​ 

 *Part of the Nuremberg Stadium's "Cathedral of Light"
*​ *Why was so much effort put into propaganda?*​ At no time up to 1933, did the Nazi Party win a majority of votes at elections. They may have been the largest political party in 1933, but they did not have a majority of support among the people. Therefore, those who had supported the Nazis needed to be informed on how correct their choice was with an emphasis on the strength of the party and the leadership. Those who opposed the Nazi Party had to be convinced that it was pointless continuing with their opposition. The fact that Goebbels had so much power is indicative of how important Hitler thought it was to ensure that the people were won over or intimidated into accepting Nazi rule.   ​


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## DOMS (Mar 28, 2006)

Cut-and-paste is almost as good as writing something yourself...


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## GFR (Mar 28, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Cut-and-paste is almost as good as writing something yourself...


There is a time for everything son. 

Let go of your hate and embrace life.


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## min0 lee (Mar 28, 2006)

Decker said:
			
		

> Then fuck it...what good is Canada? No weed, no deal. What the hell was I thinking? "Canada"...that even sounds made up.


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## min0 lee (Mar 28, 2006)

I see nothing wrong with being critical of your own country, that's what makes it so great....we have the freedom to do so.

I bet have of these guys getting mad at those who complain about this country drive foreign cars, support out sourcing and whatever else.


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## GFR (Mar 28, 2006)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> I see nothing wrong with being critical of your own country, that's what makes it so great....we have the freedom to do so.
> 
> * I bet have of these guys getting mad at those who complain about this country drive foreign cars, support out sourcing and whatever else*.


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## lnvanry (Mar 28, 2006)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> I see nothing wrong with being critical of your own country, that's what makes it so great....we have the freedom to do so.
> 
> I bet have of these guys getting mad at those who complain about this country drive foreign cars, support out sourcing and whatever else.



I have a foreign car and I support outsourcing....hopefully getting an overseas assignment in a few years.


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## lnvanry (Mar 28, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Propaganda within Nazi Germany was taken to a new and frequently perverse level. Hitler was very aware of the value of good propaganda and he appointed  Joseph Goebbels as head of propaganda.​
> 
> Propaganda is the art of persuasion - persuading others that your 'side of the story' is correct. Propaganda might take the form of persuading others that your military might is too great to be challenged; that your political might within a nation is too great or popular to challenge etc. In  Nazi Germany, Dr Joseph Goebbels was in charge of propaganda. Goebbels official title was Minister of Propaganda and National Enlightenment.​
> 
> ...



looks like he was pretty good at persuading.

That charisma that was coined in Germany by the Nazis in now looked down upon.  We still value charisma in our politicians, but in Germany its a big no no...There is also no patriotism either...no saluting...no hand over your heart during the anthem...anything that is patriotic/nationalistic is uncommon and looked down upon in Germany these days.


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## min0 lee (Mar 28, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> I have a foreign car and I support outsourcing....hopefully getting an overseas assignment in a few years.


 
So you think sending work to other countries is a good idea?

Some of these jobs they are sending overseas can be done by people who are retired but need or want another check.
I really don't think the day I retire my 401K will let me live comfortably and the way I see things we may not even have Social Security in the future.


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## lnvanry (Mar 28, 2006)

oops double post


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## lnvanry (Mar 28, 2006)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> So you think sending work to other countries is a good idea?
> 
> Some of these jobs they are sending overseas can be done by people who are retired but need or want another check.
> I really don't think the day I retire my 401K will let me live comfortably and the way I see things we may not even have Social Security in the future.



The goal of American/British business is corporate wealth...ie shareholder wealth.  Cutting costs through outsourcing is one of the several ways to do this.  As heartless as it sounds, it's not a legal nor an ethical repsonsibilty to provide for American workers who costs  much more...

THis is a natural process.  Besides, the bulk of outsourcing has already occured...meaning the losses in the automotive/silicon/and other vaious manufacturing industries has been done.  In other words, its not going to get much worse.  The only industries I can see that haven't proceeded to substantial outsourcing is the service sector.  that's starting to change with India; however, its just the nature of American business.

There will always be a portion of manufacturing that will never leave the country (integral components such as engines/innovative R&D/goods that are only sold in the US like Hummers and military equipment).

Corporate Headquaters will always remain here in the US too


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## TOMO (Mar 28, 2006)

First I do think the USA is number one, go to Australia I think even buying caffeine is illegal. What about Canada full of social programs.  Many of these countries dont work as hard as americans,,,look at France last year they almost over threw the govt because they wanted people to work 40 hours as oppossed to the French work week which is 35 hrs.


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## MyK (Mar 28, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> The goal of American/British business is corporate wealth...ie shareholder wealth.  Cutting costs through outsourcing is one of the several ways to do this.  As heartless as it sounds, it's not a legal nor an ethical repsonsibilty to provide for American workers who costs  much more...
> 
> THis is a natural process.  Besides, the bulk of outsourcing has already occured...meaning the losses in the automotive/silicon/and other vaious manufacturing industries has been done.  In other words, its not going to get much worse.  The only industries I can see that haven't proceeded to substantial outsourcing is the service sector.  that's starting to change with India; however, its just the nature of American business.
> 
> ...




I agree with everything except the last sentence. more and more corporations are becoming global and then turning transnational companies. as the world ecomony becomes global so will big business! and therefore the US headquarters will not remain in the US, but will become global. Like you said "its only natural"


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## min0 lee (Mar 28, 2006)

I believe I get better service from an American than I would from someone in India, nothing personnel against them but I can't understand them.

This Country is growing and I don't think we'll there will be enough work in Corporate headquarters.


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## kbm8795 (Mar 28, 2006)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> bulk of the work? you mean like handing over whole countries to hitlers army without a fight.  or the fact the french had the largest retreating army in the history of the world.  why was it winston churchhill said he had his greatest night of sleep the day he heard of pearl harbor? oh yeah, because then he knew america would be joining the war with the allies.  before d-day how well did the all british invasion of france go?  this is not american pride from a poor public school system showing. this is just fact.




I hate to disappoint you, dude. . .but the United States had over two years to rearm while the rest of the world was engulfed in war - and still we weren't prepared, thanks in large part to the shrill isolationist policies of Republicans at the time. And we had no problem getting our butts kicked out of whole countries during the first six months of the war, including our own possessions, like the Phillippines, some of our South Pacific islands - and there was real fear that the Japs were going to invade Hawaii. We even had two Aleutian Islands invaded and occupied - and we couldn't do crap to stop them. The only protection we had was those two oceans - and even then, the Japs sent over a few incendiary balloons that started some fires in California. We were in a panic mode, thinking as irrationally as our current Administration. We threw everyone with slanted eyes into concentration camps, took their businesses and yet let every German-American and Italian-American roam free around the country. 

Hell, the Canadians and the Aussies were in the war for two years before Pearl Harbor pulled us into the conflict. Canadians and Aussies were serving in every theater of battle, from Africa to Britain to the South Pacific and India. In the European theater, America's contribution was the ability to manufacture goods from a location that couldn't be easily bombed, while the Brits and the Russians took all the major hits from the Germans and Italians. Until the end of 1942, the Soviets fought the brunt of the land war, suffering more casualities than the other Allies combined, who kept themselves bottled up in North Africa. We helped save the Brits from starving, but so did the Canadians - and we were damned lucky the Japs didn't take Hawaii and Alaska, because this country would have been in an absolute panic if we had been bombed. 

We were totally unprepared. . .parking most of the Pacific fleet in Pearl Harbor (except the carriers). No reinforcements available for the American troops who were supposed to protect the Phillippines. Very few planes to defend Hawaii and most of them were shot up on the ground.


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## lnvanry (Mar 28, 2006)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> I believe I get better service from an American than I would from someone in India, nothing personnel against them but I can't understand them.
> 
> This Country is growing and I don't think we'll there will be enough work in Corporate headquarters.



Your right...there won't be enough.

That's why education and hardwork and vital.  Nepotism helps too.


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## kbm8795 (Mar 28, 2006)

MyK said:
			
		

> I agree with everything except the last sentence. more and more corporations are becoming global and then turning transnational companies. as the world ecomony becomes global so will big business! and therefore the US headquarters will not remain in the US, but will become global. Like you said "its only natural"




I agree with that too. And a global company isn't going to have any patriotic loyalty to some North American country, just because that's where they started their business. If a Chinese worker can do the job for half the American worker, the job will stay in China. When Americans are reduced to second world wage status, then they'll find ways to employ people here. . .so I expect the number of poor and elderly with reduced or eliminated pensions to grow in this country. Americans are too impulsive, too - they don't save and use credit cards like cash.


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## MyK (Mar 28, 2006)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> This Country is growing and I don't think we'll there will be enough work in Corporate headquarters.



your 100% correct, large corporations are a thing of the past, dinosaurs. the trend in the future will be small networks or clusters of companies that operate in sophistocated supply chains! kind of like a nuronal(sp) net. and if one of the cells operates at a substandard level, they are replaced in the chain!



			
				min0 lee said:
			
		

> I believe I get better service from an American than I would from someone in India, nothing personnel against them but I can't understand them.



RACIST!!!!! BANNED!!!


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## kbm8795 (Mar 28, 2006)

TOMO said:
			
		

> First I do think the USA is number one, go to Australia I think even buying caffeine is illegal. What about Canada full of social programs.  Many of these countries dont work as hard as americans,,,look at France last year they almost over threw the govt because they wanted people to work 40 hours as oppossed to the French work week which is 35 hrs.




Hey...I just applied for a position in Australia....so they best have coffee.


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## lnvanry (Mar 28, 2006)

MyK said:
			
		

> I agree with everything except the last sentence. more and more corporations are becoming global and then turning transnational companies. *as the world ecomony becomes global so will big business! and therefore the US headquarters will not remain in the US,* but will become global. Like you said "its only natural"



Corporate headaquaters will remain in the US for two reasons:

1. Most Int'l fortune 500's are spawned states due to our superior R&D and innovation.

2. The US corprate tax rates are one of the lowest in the world...next to Switzerland, Lichtenstein, and Ireland (all of which are capitalisic economies).  

Unless the Dems that are socialists (foreman...shhhh..they use code words like economic inequality and wealth distribution) raise taxes for welfare, free medical, and various gov't programs for the poor (many of which don't even know how to handle money except spend it) corporate HQ is here to stay.


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## lnvanry (Mar 28, 2006)

The day Exxon, GM, FORD, Chrysler, CAT, DEERE, DELL, Microsoft, Disney, AOL-Time Warner, Disney, *GE, *and Lockheed martin move overseas is day I'll admit that we lost our corporate HQ.

There may be regional HQ, but never a nerve center overseas unless that's where it started like Toyota.


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## BigDyl (Mar 28, 2006)

MyK said:
			
		

> your 100% correct, large corporations are a thing of the past, dinosaurs. the trend in the future will be small networks or clusters of companies that operate in sophistocated supply chains! kind of like a nuronal(sp) net. and if one of the cells operates at a substandard level, they are replaced in the chain!
> 
> 
> 
> RACIST!!!!! BANNED!!!





RACIST!! BANNED!!! is trademarked, and copywrighted.


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## kbm8795 (Mar 28, 2006)

Well, GM's butt is on the line begging for a government handout to stay afloat, and Ford is right behind them. CAT has been near the brink before (I grew up in central Illinois) and we need a better economic base than just making computers and movies. . .besides, the theocrats who want to take over will ruin Hollywood - what foreign country is going to want to buy a bunch of S/M religious drama flicks when Falwell Enterprises turns our entertainment media into a 24/7 televangelista marathon?


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## MyK (Mar 28, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> Corporate headaquaters will remain in the US for two reasons:



Corporate headaquaters will remain in the US until the corp becomes multinational and it becomes more efficient to decetralizes the authority around the world.

Corporations develop into multinational corps through the foloowingstages:

1. Exports products abroad
2. Establishes sales orgs. Abroad
3. Licenses foreign firms to produce Multinational Corps products.
4. Establishes Foreign manufacturing facilities, keeps decisions.
5. Gives foreign production facilities more autonomy
6. Decentralizes authority.


once a company becomes large enough and the market in th ehome contry becomes saturated becoming multinational looks nice. the following are some advatages for a corp to become mutinational:


Manufacture in companies for competitive advantage.
Buy and sell for a price advantage.
Take advantages of productivity, trade agreements, currency fluctuations.
Achieve greater sales
Maintain/improve company strengths.
Encounter fewer barriers to entry in host company.


and for good measure heres a list of reasons why it makes sense forHost Governments to let them in:



Economic growth
Full employment/use of resources
Develop favorable balance of trade
Retain a share of profits of the MNC
Technological development
Retain hegemony over economy
Advance the quality of life
Protect the nations physical environment


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## MyK (Mar 28, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> RACIST!! BANNED!!! is trademarked, and copywrighted.



I was saying that when you were knee high to a grasshopper SON!


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## lnvanry (Mar 28, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> Well, GM's butt is on the line begging for a government handout to stay afloat, and Ford is right behind them. CAT has been near the brink before (I grew up in central Illinois) and we need a better economic base than just making computers and movies. . .besides, the theocrats who want to take over will ruin Hollywood - what foreign country is going to want to buy a bunch of S/M religious drama flicks when Falwell Enterprises turns our entertainment media into a 24/7 televangelista marathon?



from the Peoria area....call some old friends or take a look at the NYSE and look up CAT.  Things are looking better than ever with us  Even the UAW....yeah I can't go there in public.


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## lnvanry (Mar 28, 2006)

MyK said:
			
		

> Corporate headaquaters will remain in the US until the corp becomes multinational and it becomes more efficient to decetralizes the authority around the world.
> 
> Corporations develop into multinational corps through the foloowingstages:
> 
> ...


I agree your steps to in becoming an MNC, but the office HQ...the CEO's, VP, and Board will always remain at home...for the two reason I stated previously.

An MNC can become 100% outsourced in production and service, but the HQ bank accounts sit in the US or Switz.

your lists are classic textbook Nice rentention or good quick research.


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## MyK (Mar 28, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> I agree your steps to in becoming an MNC, but the office HQ...the CEO's, VP, and Board will always remain at home...for the two reason I stated previously.
> 
> An MNC can become 100% outsourced in production and service, but the HQ bank accounts sit in the US or Switz.
> 
> your lists are classic textbook Nice rentention or good quick research.



yes, but the final step is decentralization of power! therefore the HQ no longer has authority over the business units and is by definition is not the HQ!

I got the lists of off an old presentation I did!!


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## CowPimp (Mar 28, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> Corporate headaquaters will remain in the US for two reasons:
> 
> 1. Most Int'l fortune 500's are spawned states due to our superior R&D and innovation.
> 
> ...



In addition to what you said, corporate HQ is here to stay regardless, unless massive campaign finance reform is implemented.  Politicians are, for the most part, completely dependant on large corporations for sufficient funding to run for office.  That means favors to be repaid, and indirect corporate control of the government.

In addition to that, there are far too many organizations like the Skull and Bones Club and Trilateral Commission that are entirely comprised of corporate big wigs and politicians collaborating together on ways to get each other more money and/or power.  It's a disgusting synergistic relationship that is virtually impossible to do anything about.

Short version:
Politicians in the US get down on their knees for big time corporate shareholders, and these shareholders pay them big bucks for that.


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## lnvanry (Mar 28, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> In addition to what you said, corporate HQ is here to stay regardless, unless massive campaign finance reform is implemented. Politicians are, for the most part, completely dependant on large corporations for sufficient funding to run for office. That means favors to be repaid, and indirect corporate control of the government.
> 
> In addition to that, there are far too many organizations like the Skull and Bones Club and Trilateral Commission that are entirely comprised of corporate big wigs and politicians collaborating together on ways to get each other more money and/or power. It's a disgusting synergistic relationship that is virtually impossible to do anything about.
> 
> ...




I think that's an excellent point...except for the Skull and Bones club...I think that's a little conspiracy theory, but then again we will never know


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## CowPimp (Mar 28, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> I think that's an excellent point...except for the Skull and Bones club...I think that's a little conspiracy theory, but then again we will never know



Go ahead and look at the members of those groups.  It's kind of insane the connections that you will find.


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## kbm8795 (Mar 28, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> from the Peoria area....call some old friends or take a look at the NYSE and look up CAT.  Things are looking better than ever with us  Even the UAW....yeah I can't go there in public.



I grew up in Bloomington-Normal and lived in Morton for four years. . .but left in 1989. CAT tends to run hot and cold - and the cold spells are scary, since it's the major industry for that whole area. I kinda liked Peoria. . .the bluffs were cool, and they used to have a couple of pubs on the Upper Peoria Lake (restaurants too) that were great to hang out on a warm summer's evening watching the barges go down the river. Nice parks in that city, too. 

Be careful about those UAW remarks...I used to be a union steward with IBEW...


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## Decker (Mar 29, 2006)

MyK said:
			
		

> Corporate headaquaters will remain in the US until the corp becomes multinational and it becomes more efficient to decetralizes the authority around the world.
> 
> Corporations develop into multinational corps through the foloowingstages:
> 
> ...


That's interesting. I always thought that foreign incorporation was largely done for the following reasons: exploitation of cheap labor, tax avoidance, environmental exploitation, regulatory avoidance, etc. I think these reasons refer to the moment that corporations become more 'efficient.' It's not really efficiency but shortcuts. 

American corp.s that change headquarters abroad for the above reason(s) yet still maintain business in the US are unamerican. They take advantage of the US's laws and infrastructure while engaging in tax avoidance. http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0522/p01s01-uspo.html

There is nothing "natural" about the expatriation of US companies. Unless of course one defines 'natural' as unmitigated greed.

I strongly disagree with some of your reasons for why a gov. should let these multinationals in. Political corruption can be starkly rampant with these mutlis. Multis do not go out of their way to protect another nation's physical environment and when they do, it's only to preserve their ownership of the means of production while exploitation runs full boat. Is exploitation always bad? Not according to most credible economists. Ideally the standard of living should rise for the exploited workers. Does this always happen? No. Just look at third world countries where the gravy never 'trickles down' and keeping the workforce underpaid, overworked and non-unionized is in the owner's best interests. 

What does "Retain hegemony over economy" mean?


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## MyK (Mar 29, 2006)

Decker said:
			
		

> That's interesting. I always thought that foreign incorporation was largely done for the following reasons: exploitation of cheap labor, tax avoidance, environmental exploitation, regulatory avoidance, etc. I think these reasons refer to the moment that corporations become more 'efficient.' It's not really efficiency but shortcuts.
> 
> American corp.s that change headquarters abroad for the above reason(s) yet still maintain business in the US are unamerican. They take advantage of the US's laws and infrastructure while engaging in tax avoidance. http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0522/p01s01-uspo.html
> 
> ...




great post!

your absolutely right my post was overly optimistic and paited a pretty picture, and you saw right through it. If you want to see the fworst that can happen take a look at the Bhopal incident when Union carbide gave a third world country control over a technology that thay had no cultural understanding of.



> The *Bhopal Disaster *of 1984 is claimed by many as the worst industrial disaster in history. It was caused by the accidental release of 40 tonnes of methyl isocyanate (MIC) from a Union Carbide India, Limited (UCIL, now known as Eveready Industries India, Limited) pesticide plant located in the heart of the city of Bhopal, in the Indian state of Madhya Pradesh. UCIL was a joint venture between Union Carbide and a consortium of Indian investors.
> 
> In the early hours of December 3, 1984, a holding tank with stored MIC overheated and released toxic heavier-than-air MIC gas, which rolled along the ground through the surrounding streets killing thousands outright. The transportation system in the city collapsed and many people were trampled trying to escape. The gases also injured anywhere from 150,000 to 600,000 people, at least 15,000 of whom later died.





> *Hegemony* (pronounced hɪ'gem.ə.ni) (greek:ηγεμονία) is the dominance of one group over other groups, with or without the threat of force, to the extent that, for instance, the dominant party can dictate the terms of trade to its advantage; more broadly, cultural perspectives become skewed to favor the dominant group. Hegemony controls the ways that ideas become "naturalized" in a process that informs notions of common sense.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemony



because of India's history of colonial rule by the British they demanded the control of the Union Carbide factory in Bhopal (hegemoney). However, the culture of the people couldnt appreciate the power of the MIC, and this was the major cause that lead to the disaster. IMO.


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## CowPimp (Mar 29, 2006)

Every time I hear the word trickle down I want to cry.  That is one of the most genius uses of rehtoric I have ever heard of.  It illicits an image of water following the natural path that gravity dictates.  Well, the flow of wealth isn't dictated by gravity people!  Give more discretionary income to those who lack it, and that will spur business activity, not the reverse.  God what a load of horseshit.


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## BigDyl (Mar 29, 2006)

True Story, sometimes I look at the poster on my wall, which is a picture of a crying bald eagle holding the American Flag up with its talons.  I've jerked off many times to this poster.


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## lnvanry (Mar 29, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Every time I hear the word trickle down I want to cry. That is one of the most genius uses of rehtoric I have ever heard of. It illicits an image of water following the natural path that gravity dictates. Well, the flow of wealth isn't dictated by gravity people! *Give *more discretionary income to those who lack it, and that will spur business activity, not the reverse. God what a load of horseshit.


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## Decker (Mar 30, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Every time I hear the word trickle down I want to cry. That is one of the most genius uses of rehtoric I have ever heard of. It illicits an image of water following the natural path that gravity dictates. Well, the flow of wealth isn't dictated by gravity people! Give more discretionary income to those who lack it, and that will spur business activity, not the reverse. God what a load of horseshit.


I'm a big fan of the trickle down economics debate. My brother characterizes it as whatever pittance falls out of the overstuffed pockets of the wealthy.

TDE/supplyside economics is really just a crank theory. One of the planks in the platform is: Cutting taxes on the wealthy doubles tax revenue b/c the attendant growth in business production/productivity more than makes up for the tax cut. 

That is what we in the legal arena call a FREE LUNCH. No such thing.

Back to our regularly scheduled program.

Thanks Myk for the def. of hegemony. I was reading 'hegemony' in the narrow terms of economic production in the markeplace and not societal influence. That's a very sobering piece on the Bhopal/Union Carbide disaster. Thanks.


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## BigDyl (Mar 30, 2006)

Decker said:
			
		

> I'm a big fan of the trickle down economics debate. My brother characterizes it as whatever pittance falls out of the overstuffed pockets of the wealthy.
> 
> TDE/supplyside economics is really just a crank theory. One of the planks in the platform is: Cutting taxes on the wealthy doubles tax revenue b/c the attendant growth in business production/productivity more than makes up for the tax cut.
> 
> ...




Don't trust MyK.


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## CowPimp (Mar 30, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

>



Look, I'm not suggesting communism (Although I don't think it's as insane as most people do).  However, if you're going to provide tax breaks, then don't give them to those who don't need them.  That's my point.  

No capital gains tax?  That is ludicrous in my opinion.  Yeah yeah, spur economic growth, blah blah.  Horseshit.  How come my physical labor gets taxed, but the money that some douche bag made by using money isn't getting taxed?  Nonsense.  Guess what; if you give the tax breaks to those who truly could use them, then they are going to spend more money on your businesses!  What a novel idea...


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## GFR (Mar 31, 2006)




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## BigDyl (Mar 31, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

>




True Story, you did a spit shine job of cleaning my shoes that day.  You won't tell anyone about our little naughty story, will you?


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## lnvanry (Mar 31, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

>



good stuff...I'm glad i took preventative measures to not become the boy


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## GFR (Mar 31, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> good stuff...I'm glad i took preventative measures to not become the boy


Like picking the vagina you would be born from????


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## lnvanry (Mar 31, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Like picking the vagina you would be born from????



 I don't get it?


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## lnvanry (Mar 31, 2006)

JK



They hate us for our freedom


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## MyK (Mar 31, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> I don't get it?



he saying that your born into money! you dont have a choice, you dont pick your parents!!!!!!!!!


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## GFR (Mar 31, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> I don't get it?


I know, and that is the sad thing about it.


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## BigDyl (Mar 31, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> I know, and that is the sad thing about it.




True Story...


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## lnvanry (Apr 1, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> I know, and that is the sad thing about it.



so if does that mean if you are born into poverty you have to be the shoe shiner?

BigDyl do you types anythings besides "true story" or "ban him" or "0wned"?


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## BigDyl (Apr 1, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> so if does that mean if you are born into poverty you have to be the shoe shiner?
> 
> BigDyl do you types anythings besides "true story" or "ban him" or "0wned"?




NO!  BANNED!


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## CowPimp (Apr 1, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> so if does that mean if you are born into poverty you have to be the shoe shiner?
> 
> BigDyl do you types anythings besides "true story" or "ban him" or "0wned"?



No, but it certainly puts you at a disadvantage.  A moron with out of control behavior and horrible business sense like George Bush would probably be a shoe shiner if not for daddy.


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## KelJu (Apr 1, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> No, but it certainly puts you at a disadvantage.  A moron with out of control behavior and horrible business sense like George Bush would probably be a shoe shiner if not for daddy.




I am completely for capitalism, and completely against socialism, but I have to agree with the above statement. 
I would like to make a correction to the logic some of you are using regarding which the vagina you came from statement.
I don't think the amount of money that your parents make has any bearing on what you could accomplish today in the states. Poor parents raise children to be sucessful all of the time.

Think of it like this. Do people that have great genetics with huge fucking muscles owe anything to the 130lb little guys, just because they were born with shit genetics? I don't think so. I think the guy with shit genetics should work harder at it. It would be ludicrous to expect the big guy to give some of his muscle to the little guy just because he has so much and the little guy has so little. Well I think about money the same way.

But, the quality of your parents makes a huge difference on whether you are successful. It is common for lower class citizens to not push their kids to get an education even when it is fucking free. That is stupidity at its worst. That is why so many kids grow up to be worthless, because their parents were worthless. I will guarantee you that parents of wealthy families make their children do well in school, so to have a head start in the world. 
Money isn't the controlling factor here, intelligence combined with wisdom is. Successful people teach their kids to be successful. Worthless people teach their children to be worthless. 
There are exceptions, because many kids do not turn out anything like their parents, because of events that shaped their life. But for the most part, this holds true.
So why give tax breaks to the poor? Lol, nevermind, the poor take more out of the system than they put in, I forgot. I say give the middle class a break, we are the ones that are carrying both the upper and lower class. We work the shitty 9 to 5 jobs making big corporations rich while paying taxes to fund the worthless lower class.
Too bad they are poor, because their didn't have parents that taught them to have a better work ethic or the value of investing into your future. 
Too fucking bad! That doesn't mean I want to bust my ass to help pay for their problems. Fucking go back to school, get an education and fix your life. 

The funny thing is look how well socialism is working in France right now.
Do we really want to look like that in 50 years? The citizens of France are softer and lazier than we are. They have an entire class of foreigners doing the labor jobs, because socialism has made the country to weak to do their own shitjobs so they brought in other people to do it for them. Now, the worker class is rebelling against their system and there isn't shit they can do about it. The same thing is going to happen to use if we don???t start enforcing our borders better, but that is a different issue all together.


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## BigDyl (Apr 1, 2006)

KelJu said:
			
		

> I don't think the amount of money that your parents make has any bearing on what you could accomplish today in the states. Poor parents raise children to be sucessful all of the time.




I disagree 1000%.



			
				KelJu said:
			
		

> Think of it like this. Do people that have great genetics with huge fucking muscles owe anything to the 130lb little guys, just because they were born with shit genetics? I don't think so. I think the guy with shit genetics should work harder at it. It would be ludicrous to expect the big guy to give some of his muscle to the little guy just because he has so much and the little guy has so little. Well I think about money the same way.




The guy with shit genetics will never be Mr. O no matter how hard he trys.   



			
				KelJu said:
			
		

> But, the quality of your parents makes a huge difference on whether you are successful. It is common for lower class citizens to not push their kids to get an education even when it is fucking free. That is stupidity at its worst. That is why so many kids grow up to be worthless, because their parents were worthless. I will guarantee you that parents of wealthy families make their children do well in school, so to have a head start in the world.
> Money isn't the controlling factor here, intelligence combined with wisdom is. Successful people teach their kids to be successful. Worthless people teach their children to be worthless.
> There are exceptions, because many kids do not turn out anything like their parents, because of events that shaped their life. But for the most part, this holds true.
> So why give tax breaks to the poor? Lol, nevermind, the poor take more out of the system than they put in, I forgot. I say give the middle class a break, we are the ones that are carrying both the upper and lower class. We work the shitty 9 to 5 jobs making big corporations rich while paying taxes to fund the worthless lower class.
> ...




True Story, I see people who give 1000% at work, work on the weekends, and put in 12 hour days and who basically are 99% the reason the company is so sucessful.  Then I see a higher up who gets paid 5x more with no education, who does nothing but goto meetings all day.  And, I see it all the time.   

The higher up guy pays more taxes, so he contributes more to society though.


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## KelJu (Apr 1, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> I don't think the amount of money that your parents make has any bearing on what you could accomplish today in the states. Poor parents raise children to be sucessful all of the time.
> 
> I disagree 1000%.



Ok, let me rephrase that.
I don't think the amount of money your parents make can stop you from accomplishing great things in the states.

I know that being born rich puts you at an advantage, but being poor also puts you at an advantage when you are college age. Middle class gets shit on because they make too much for their kids to receive any college aid, but don't always make enough to help their kids pay for it. If you are wealthy, mommy and daddy pays for it, and if you are dirt poor, Uncle Sam pays for it. If you are middle class, you get stuck paying for it yourself usually and the poor people's education on top of that.


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## CowPimp (Apr 1, 2006)

KelJu said:
			
		

> I am completely for capitalism, and completely against socialism, but I have to agree with the above statement.
> I would like to make a correction to the logic some of you are using regarding which the vagina you came from statement.
> I don't think the amount of money that your parents make has any bearing on what you could accomplish today in the states. Poor parents raise children to be sucessful all of the time.



To say it has no bearing is ridiculous.  Wealthy parents can afford a better education, a more nurturing environment for child, etc.  Compare a family where there is a full time stay at home mother to a family where both parents work two jobs to support their children, and the child has to learn to stay home by themselves at the age of 5.  You don't think that has any effect on the development of the child?  It's easy to speculate that the child could've done X or Y when you've never been in that situation.




> Think of it like this. Do people that have great genetics with huge fucking muscles owe anything to the 130lb little guys, just because they were born with shit genetics? I don't think so. I think the guy with shit genetics should work harder at it. It would be ludicrous to expect the big guy to give some of his muscle to the little guy just because he has so much and the little guy has so little. Well I think about money the same way.



This is different.  Money equates to buying the necessary resources to survive.  Having an extra 100 pounds of muscle mass on your frame doesn't.  That is a comparison that sounds good until you realize that one is referring to something that is essential to survival and the other is referring to a frill that some people choose to experience.




> But, the quality of your parents makes a huge difference on whether you are successful. It is common for lower class citizens to not push their kids to get an education even when it is fucking free. That is stupidity at its worst. That is why so many kids grow up to be worthless, because their parents were worthless. I will guarantee you that parents of wealthy families make their children do well in school, so to have a head start in the world.
> Money isn't the controlling factor here, intelligence combined with wisdom is. Successful people teach their kids to be successful. Worthless people teach their children to be worthless.



Again, it's easy to speculate from afar.  A lot of times the parents do push their children, but they have a harder time coping with the stressors of a more impoverished lifestyle.  As well, the parents don't often have the time to devote to their children, like the stay at home mother in a well off family.  Are there scenarios in the world such as those you are mentioning?  Certainly, but there are just as many where the circumstances of life play a larger factor than you are letting on.




> There are exceptions, because many kids do not turn out anything like their parents, because of events that shaped their life. But for the most part, this holds true.



For the most part?  You're just talking out of your ass.  Let's be honest.  Neither one of us know the percentage of people that fail as a result of poor parenting or as a result of a lack of the ability to parent sufficiently because of their living situation.




> So why give tax breaks to the poor? Lol, nevermind, the poor take more out of the system than they put in, I forgot. I say give the middle class a break, we are the ones that are carrying both the upper and lower class. We work the shitty 9 to 5 jobs making big corporations rich while paying taxes to fund the worthless lower class.



Because they need the money.  If they have more discretionary income, then they can buy more things from rich corporations.  Why give tax breaks to the rich?  What the fuck do they need the money for?  Golden toilet seats?  I'm talking the top 1% richest people in the country, who recent tax cuts have funneled plenty of funds to.  Fuck them, they don't need the help.




> Too bad they are poor, because their didn't have parents that taught them to have a better work ethic or the value of investing into your future.
> Too fucking bad! That doesn't mean I want to bust my ass to help pay for their problems. Fucking go back to school, get an education and fix your life.



Oh yeah, it's just that easy to go back to school and fix your life.  Just like that, snap my fingers, poof it's done.  Give me a fucking break.  It takes time, suffering in the grips of massive debt, and an incredible amount of stress.  Not to mention a 4 year degree doesn't get you shit anymore.  

It's all about connections.  I have a friend who got a job making 40K a year right out of highschool with no certifications and a very minimal amount of experience.  I had two certifications in the same field, higher SAT scores, and many hours of volunteer work at my high school performing the required duties (Network technician work).  I couldn't get shit.  The best offer I got was an unpaid internship.  Woopdee fucking doo.  Well, I can't do that; I have to work 40 hours a week and goto school both because my family needs me.

Now it's flipped.  I just got a job as a personal trainer without a certification or experience.  How?  I got a hookup through someone I know, a previous co-worker.

Stop being a greedy fuck.  I'm sure you work hard for your money, but so do poor people.  They just happen to live in a world where people are allowed to be paid wages that couldn't pay the rent for a fucking cardboard box.  Not everyone can work white collar jobs.  What if 100% of the population had PhDs?  They wouldn't all get a chance to use them.  The white collar jobs would be saturated, and someone needs to build the houses, fix the cars, and clean the goddamned toilets.  I have worked with people who had masters degrees, and they were dumping the shitter and loading the bags on airplanes with me.  Why?  They got laid off and were unable to find another job.  Not that they didn't try, but everything is not as easy as you make it out to be.




> The funny thing is look how well socialism is working in France right now.
> Do we really want to look like that in 50 years? The citizens of France are softer and lazier than we are. They have an entire class of foreigners doing the labor jobs, because socialism has made the country to weak to do their own shitjobs so they brought in other people to do it for them. Now, the worker class is rebelling against their system and there isn't shit they can do about it. The same thing is going to happen to use if we don???t start enforcing our borders better, but that is a different issue all together.



Look how well capitalism is working for the USA.  We are trillions of dollars in debt and totally unable to balance our budget.  Over 1/4 of our 2.2 trillion dollar anual budget goes to pay just the interest on our national debt.  We create the illusion that we're doing well, but we're not.  People are dipping into their savings for the first time in years, social security is looking incredibly unstable in the future, and we have no healthcare for a large chunk of our citizens.  Yeah, we're the greatest.


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## GFR (Apr 1, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> No, but it certainly puts you at a disadvantage.  A moron with out of control behavior and horrible business sense like George Bush would probably be a *shoe shiner* if not for daddy.


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## BigDyl (Apr 1, 2006)

Someone got pwned.


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## KelJu (Apr 1, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> To say it has no bearing is ridiculous.  Wealthy parents can afford a better education, a more nurturing environment for child, etc.  Compare a family where there is a full time stay at home mother to a family where both parents work two jobs to support their children, and the child has to learn to stay home by themselves at the age of 5.  You don't think that has any effect on the development of the child?  It's easy to speculate that the child could've done X or Y when you've never been in that situation.


I had already rephrased that in the previous post. Yes, it does have a bearing on your success.



> Again, it's easy to speculate from afar.  A lot of times the parents do push their children, but they have a harder time coping with the stressors of a more impoverished lifestyle.  As well, the parents don't often have the time to devote to their children, like the stay at home mother in a well off family.  Are there scenarios in the world such as those you are mentioning?  Certainly, but there are just as many where the circumstances of life play a larger factor than you are letting on.



So at what point do people take responsibility for their actions? "It???s not my fault; my parents didn't spend enough time with me." "It???s not my fault, my parents were poor". I see your point Cowpimp, but I don't agree with it. I think you should be accountable for your actions or lack of action in your financial future. It might require not knocking up some ho before you are in good enough financial shape to raise a kid. It might mean establishing a career before getting married. It might require a little extra work and sacrificing a little fun for a sound future later. I will just come out a say it, I am fucking pissed that I have had to work 40+ hours a week for the last 5 fucking years to pay for college while every friend I have has either pal grants, or parents paying for school. They have had the time of their life, and I have been beating my head against the wall trying to balance work and school without losing my mind. It is so fucking hard to work an 8 hour day then come home to pull an all nighter to be prepared for exams the next morning. Maybe my bitterness has turned me into a selfish bastard, but I have no pity for those who don't prepare for their future. My parent???s both worked, and didn't get to spend that much time with me, but you know what? I knew I was going to get my assed beat if I came home on report card day with failing grades. How fucking hard is that? "Kids make A's and B's and you won't get the shit beat out of you on report card day." 
I think my dad was an asshole for how hard he was on me a lot of times, but I thank god he instilled in me a work ethic and understanding of the importance of an education. I will be pretty fucking surprised if I can't land a good job with a BS in Computer Sciences. I haven't even graduated, and I already have 2 companies here in Mobile that told me they want me to come to work for them as soon as I graduate.



> For the most part?  You're just talking out of your ass.  Let's be honest.  Neither one of us know the percentage of people that fail as a result of poor parenting or as a result of a lack of the ability to parent sufficiently because of their living situation.


Ok, I am making an assumption here and I could be wrong, because I don't know the percentage, because it would be impossible to ever learn the percentage. So, you can only make an educated guess at this point, and that is what I did.



> Because they need the money.  If they have more discretionary income, then they can buy more things from rich corporations.  Why give tax breaks to the rich?  What the fuck do they need the money for?  Golden toilet seats?  I'm talking the top 1% richest people in the country, who recent tax cuts have funneled plenty of funds to.  Fuck them, they don't need the help.
> I wasn't suggesting giving the tax breaks to the top 1%. I was suggesting giving the tax breaks to the middle class. I think the people making between 40 thousand and 120 thousand need a fucking break.



I wasn't suggesting giving the tax breaks to the top 1%. I was suggesting giving the tax breaks to the middle class. I think the people making between 40 thousand and 120 thousand need a fucking break. 



> Oh yeah, it's just that easy to go back to school and fix your life.  Just like that, snap my fingers, poof it's done.  Give me a fucking break.  It takes time, suffering in the grips of massive debt, and an incredible amount of stress.  Not to mention a 4 year degree doesn't get you shit anymore.



I know all too well what it takes. I have been doing it for 5 years. I almost lost it a few times too. You get burnt out eventually. You wake up, go to class for 4 hours, then rush to work, then work for 5 hours or more, then go back to school for your night classes, then go home and do homework for 4 hours, then work on weekends to make a little extra cash to pay your bills, then catch-up on your school work that you fell behind on during the week. By that time you only have 6 hours to sleep before you have to do it all over again tomorrow. I think it sucks. You do this long enough and you are more than prepared for the real world, and you lose a little bit of you soul in the process. I am of the opinion that if I have to do this shit to get ahead in life, fuck everybody else. I paid my dues and it is time for me to reap the rewards. "Oh whets that, you failed out of school because you ditched class too much?" "Oh, that???s too bad; can I get fries with that?"   




> It's all about connections.  I have a friend who got a job making 40K a year right out of high school with no certifications and a very minimal amount of experience.  I had two certifications in the same field, higher SAT scores, and many hours of volunteer work at my high school performing the required duties (Network technician work).  I couldn't get shit.  The best offer I got was an unpaid internship.  Woopdee fucking doo.  Well, I can't do that; I have to work 40 hours a week and goto school both because my family needs me.



Ok, I agree that connections have a big part in success. That just means that you might have to change things about your life or even people you know and hang out with to get ahead. I do not hang around losers. I have no respect for them, and I can't be friends with someone which I do not respect. My friends can count on me for anything, and I can count on them. My friends are all ambitious and intelligent and one day I might need a friend to hire my kid. One day they might need me to pull strings to get their kid into a company. That is just how things work and you know this Cowpimp. 



> Now it's flipped.  I just got a job as a personal trainer without a certification or experience.  How?  I got a hookup through someone I know, a previous co-worker.



So are you saying that that person recommended you just by the fact that they knew you? It wouldn???t have anything to do with the fact that the person knew you were an intelligent and competent worker before they recommended you would it? It wouldn't have anything to do with you displaying good work ethic in the presence of that person would it? If you were a worthless loser, that person would not have stuck their neck out for you. That in itself shows that people make their own success. The things that you do come back to you. If you are a dumbass that never makes good impressions on people, then you will have a really hard fucking time getting your foot in the door, but if you are someone that shows that you are ambitious and willing to work hard, you will eventually impress the right people. 




> Stop being a greedy fuck.  I'm sure you work hard for your money, but so do poor people.  They just happen to live in a world where people are allowed to be paid wages that couldn't pay the rent for a fucking cardboard box.  Not everyone can work white collar jobs.  What if 100% of the population had PhDs?  They wouldn't all get a chance to use them.  The white collar jobs would be saturated, and someone needs to build the houses, fix the cars, and clean the goddamned toilets.  I have worked with people who had masters degrees, and they were dumping the shitter and loading the bags on airplanes with me.  Why?  They got laid off and were unable to find another job.  Not that they didn't try, but everything is not as easy as you make it out to be.



Yeah, it is a damn shame that the world isn't perfect. Life isn't fair. I believe that people have three options really.
A) Be happy with what you have.
B) Work harder to improve your situation.
C) Kill yourself

I am choosing option B, but C is still a possibility.


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## CowPimp (Apr 1, 2006)

KelJu said:
			
		

> I had already rephrased that in the previous post. Yes, it does have a bearing on your success.



Thank you.




> So at what point do people take responsibility for their actions? "It???s not my fault; my parents didn't spend enough time with me." "It???s not my fault, my parents were poor". I see your point Cowpimp, but I don't agree with it. I think you should be accountable for your actions or lack of action in your financial future. It might require not knocking up some ho before you are in good enough financial shape to raise a kid. It might mean establishing a career before getting married. It might require a little extra work and sacrificing a little fun for a sound future later. I will just come out a say it, I am fucking pissed that I have had to work 40+ hours a week for the last 5 fucking years to pay for college while every friend I have has either pal grants, or parents paying for school. They have had the time of their life, and I have been beating my head against the wall trying to balance work and school without losing my mind. It is so fucking hard to work an 8 hour day then come home to pull an all nighter to be prepared for exams the next morning. Maybe my bitterness has turned me into a selfish bastard, but I have no pity for those who don't prepare for their future. My parent???s both worked, and didn't get to spend that much time with me, but you know what? I knew I was going to get my assed beat if I came home on report card day with failing grades. How fucking hard is that? "Kids make A's and B's and you won't get the shit beat out of you on report card day."
> I think my dad was an asshole for how hard he was on me a lot of times, but I thank god he instilled in me a work ethic and understanding of the importance of an education. I will be pretty fucking surprised if I can't land a good job with a BS in Computer Sciences. I haven't even graduated, and I already have 2 companies here in Mobile that told me they want me to come to work for them as soon as I graduate.



I see your point.  There are certainly lazy ass people who rape the system for all it's worth and don't deserve any help.  Does that mean those who are truly working hard for and just not getting anywhere should be fucked over too?  Maybe, but that's a matter of opinion.  I think not.  There should be some type of reform that takes place that gives a greater incentive to those who work, additional incentive if you goto school, etc.  You see my point?

Don't get me wrong, it pisses me off that people abuse the system.  People like me and you who are going to school and working at the same time are working damned hard to make it in this world.  Then people buck the system so they can be lazy, and I'm helping pay for them to do that.  It infuriates me, but that will always be the case.

Also, you have to take into consideration that there are people who made mistakes in the past that are having trouble getting past them.  For example, the 16 year old girl who got knocked up.  Should she have been more careful with pre-marital sex?  Probably, but a lot of us have done similar deeds and just didn't suffer the same misfortune.  Going back to school, working, AND taking care of a kid is beyond my comprehension.  I couldn't even imagine.  Just another example of a scenario where someone probably deserves some help.

I'm glad to hear you have a job waiting for you, but not everyone is so lucky.  The girl I'm seeing right now has two college degrees (Agricultue and land management with emphasis on engineering and dance), and she's back in school again because she can't get a good paying job with those degrees.  She actually is employed as a dancer, but it is only part time when they put on shows and doesn't pay the bills entirely.  Thankfully her parents let her move back in so she can go back to school.  Not everyone is so fortunate.




> Ok, I am making an assumption here and I could be wrong, because I don't know the percentage, because it would be impossible to ever learn the percentage. So, you can only make an educated guess at this point, and that is what I did.



Fair enough.




> I wasn't suggesting giving the tax breaks to the top 1%. I was suggesting giving the tax breaks to the middle class. I think the people making between 40 thousand and 120 thousand need a fucking break.



I can agree with that, but that's where these most recent tax cuts have gone, the richest of the rich.  Things like making dividends tax free and removing inheritance tax primarily benefit these people too, way way way more than your middle class families.




> I know all too well what it takes. I have been doing it for 5 years. I almost lost it a few times too. You get burnt out eventually. You wake up, go to class for 4 hours, then rush to work, then work for 5 hours or more, then go back to school for your night classes, then go home and do homework for 4 hours, then work on weekends to make a little extra cash to pay your bills, then catch-up on your school work that you fell behind on during the week. By that time you only have 6 hours to sleep before you have to do it all over again tomorrow. I think it sucks. You do this long enough and you are more than prepared for the real world, and you lose a little bit of you soul in the process. I am of the opinion that if I have to do this shit to get ahead in life, fuck everybody else. I paid my dues and it is time for me to reap the rewards. "Oh whets that, you failed out of school because you ditched class too much?" "Oh, that???s too bad; can I get fries with that?"



I shouldn't have assumed anything about you.  You definitely work hard to make it in this life.  However, we are pretty much arguing two different points here.  I don't necessarily think the poor should get all the breaks, I just don't think the rich should get any.  I don't really consider 100K a year rich.  It's that very top bracket that I think doesn't deserve the tax breaks.  If you eventually make it into that bracket, then good for you.  Personally, I will never.  I have no desire to be rich.  I don't want it.  I don't deserve to have that much more money than anyone no matter how hard I worked; that's my opinion.




> Ok, I agree that connections have a big part in success. That just means that you might have to change things about your life or even people you know and hang out with to get ahead. I do not hang around losers. I have no respect for them, and I can't be friends with someone which I do not respect. My friends can count on me for anything, and I can count on them. My friends are all ambitious and intelligent and one day I might need a friend to hire my kid. One day they might need me to pull strings to get their kid into a company. That is just how things work and you know this Cowpimp.



Yup, that is how things work.  The rich, and even the upper middle class generally have a lot more connections than the poor and lower middle class citizens.  Just another point that your social stature plays a big role in how life turns out for you, a big uncontrollable factor.  I know this will never change, it's just a point I was making.




> So are you saying that that person recommended you just by the fact that they knew you? It wouldn???t have anything to do with the fact that the person knew you were an intelligent and competent worker before they recommended you would it? It wouldn't have anything to do with you displaying good work ethic in the presence of that person would it? If you were a worthless loser, that person would not have stuck their neck out for you. That in itself shows that people make their own success. The things that you do come back to you. If you are a dumbass that never makes good impressions on people, then you will have a really hard fucking time getting your foot in the door, but if you are someone that shows that you are ambitious and willing to work hard, you will eventually impress the right people.



See, the difference is that I need both.  I needed to bust my ass, get educated, and find the connection.  Some people just need the connection.  They don't need the knowledge.




> Yeah, it is a damn shame that the world isn't perfect. Life isn't fair. I believe that people have three options really.
> A) Be happy with what you have.
> B) Work harder to improve your situation.
> C) Kill yourself
> ...



Sometimes you have to be A and B though.  You can work hard to improve your situation and spin your wheels.  I see it all the time, and it happens in my family a lot.  My mom and dad both work very hard to earn their livings.  My dad has a college degree, but it hasn't done shit for him.  He paid his way through college, and it didn't get him shit.  My mom has her own business, and it's doing well enough to pay the bills, but not well enough to set her up for big bucks.  My dad tried to start his own business and improve his situation; it failed.  He is broke, now he's busting his ass doing manual labor again to try to make ends meet.  He deserves a tax break more than rich fuckers, so does my mom, and so do I.  That's what I believe.

Bottom line, there are controllable variables, and there are uncontrollable variables.  If you take charge of all of the controllable variables and still don't progress, then you deserve some help in my opinion.  I see it all the time too.  Even if it is only temporary, it is still deserved.  That's what I think.  Again though, I feel this applies to middle class citizens, not just those on welfare or whatever.


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