# Sore for days



## SubSolar (Mar 29, 2009)

Ever since I started weight lifting about 6 years ago, I've always been sore for days after working a particular muscle group.  Most muscles take about 4-5 days to fully recover.  If I do squats or leg presses it's more like a week to fully recover.  Even abs will take about 3 or 4 days to recover if I do weighted exercises.  It doesn't seem to matter if I go for high reps (12) or go heavy (8).  I'm not getting injured, just really sore.  The long recovery time isn't a big deal for weight training since I typically lift about 3 or 4 times a week so a muscle group is fully recovered by the time it's time to work it again.  But my legs are pretty much sore all the time since they take 5-7 days to recover so it's hard to do cardio.  My question is, is there some kind of deficiency in my diet?   Should I take a supplement like BCAA's or glutamine?  I'm getting about 1.5 grams of protein per pound of lean muscle right now, should I boost this to 2?  I started taking creatine mono with a little glutamine a month ago and haven't really noticed any difference in recovery or while working out.  Or is being sore for days just how it is for my particular body?


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## Built (Mar 29, 2009)

How is your diet? Are you gaining, losing or maintaining?


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## sendit08 (Mar 29, 2009)

post your routine... in detail...


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## SubSolar (Mar 29, 2009)

Built said:


> How is your diet? Are you gaining, losing or maintaining?



I actually just totally revamped my diet.  I've never really focused on it before besides the protein side.  But I've noticed that as I approach 30 I need to watch what I eat.  George Foreman grill and food scale have definitely slimmed up my midsection this month.  I've lost 9 lbs. in 3 weeks and still losing.  I think it's mostly fat since I haven't lost strength in my exercises.  I have some Accumeasure digital calipers coming in the mail so I'll know in about a week.  I'm 5'6" and down to 175 lbs.  Years ago a trainer used calipers on me when I was about this weight and I was 13%.  I may be more now, I want to get down to about 10% without losing strength and maintain that.

Here's my diet:

Meal 1:  Three slices of turkey breast with 2 whole wheat bread slices and apple

Meal 2:  Lean Body RTD shake

Meal 3:  Nitro-Tech protein bar

Meal 4:  salmon and two oranges

Meal 5:  Syntrax Nectar protein shake

Meal 6:  skinless chicken breast and zucchini

If I'm hungry between meals I always have strawberries, apples, oranges and grapes on hand.

Cut out all soda and juices, just drink water.

Diet has really helped me lose weight and my top abs are starting to show.  Eating cleaner definitely helped but I think the biggest difference was I was just eating too much.  Had no sense of portion control.


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## SubSolar (Mar 29, 2009)

sendit08 said:


> post your routine... in detail...



Day 1:
Chest and triceps

Day 2:
Legs and lower back

Day 3:
Biceps and upper back

Day 4:
Shoulders and abs

I generally do about 3 different exercises per muscle group.  I do a warmup set then 3 sets for each exercise, try to hit 12 reps, if I can hit 12 I'll up the weight.  Try and do different exercises each time to mix it up.


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## sendit08 (Mar 29, 2009)

take my opinion for what its worth... I am not a pro but I will give some input.

First, I think that you might be off on your protiein counting you said 1.5g per lb of lbm (225g) and at a glance it doesnt look like your getting that much from what you posted. If you are then you are getting alot of protein outside of real food which I personally am not a fan of.

Second, if I was on a natural cut and used a split like yours I would go with 2-3 excersices on largy muscle groups (compounds). with a lower rep range 4-6 and 3 sets each. and one isolation, if you insist.
so take your chest day for example.... 
I would do
Bench ; Incline ; crossovers ; Dips. 
I know it seems like your not working hard enough, but it sounds like you might be overtraining a little bit.

You may also want to get something along the lines of glucosomine chondroitin. 
Some of the soreness may be aches in your joints. I take a combo of gluc chond and msm and it really helps with joint aches for me


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## Built (Mar 29, 2009)

Can't add anything to that. Good suggestions all around.


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## sendit08 (Mar 29, 2009)

Built said:


> Can't add anything to that. Good suggestions all around.



Thanks Built... But I must say after 3 years as a Kin major and numerous university level nutrition courses Ive learned a hell of a lot more from reading your posts over the last year or so.


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## SubSolar (Mar 29, 2009)

sendit08 said:


> take my opinion for what its worth... I am not a pro but I will give some input.
> 
> First, I think that you might be off on your protiein counting you said 1.5g per lb of lbm (225g) and at a glance it doesnt look like your getting that much from what you posted. If you are then you are getting alot of protein outside of real food which I personally am not a fan of.
> 
> ...



I get about 90 grams of protein from the shakes and bars alone.  How much do you recommend per pound of lean mass?  I do take glucosamine in my Triple Flex.  I don't think it's my joints that hurt/are sore.


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## Built (Mar 29, 2009)

Thanks sendit - I'm flattered. 

Subsolar, why all the phony food? So many shakes and bars. Why not just eat food?

Link in my sig might help you solidify your plans.


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## sendit08 (Mar 30, 2009)

SubSolar said:


> I get about 90 grams of protein from the shakes and bars alone.  How much do you recommend per pound of lean mass?  I do take glucosamine in my Triple Flex.  I don't think it's my joints that hurt/are sore.



personally, I shoot for 2g per lb of lbm. Minimum of 1.5g whether i am cutting or bulking its the same. I am 205 lbs and I get at least 350g of protein per day and only 48 grams come from a post workout whey shake.  If you have a time issue you could cook your chicken/fish the night before. Sometimes I even just eat it cold or room temp if I have no time or access to heat them up.  
Use fitday.com to find out how many grams of protein are in the foods that you will eat. 
Are your sleeping patterns ok?

I think you may find that lowering the volume of your workout will result in a decrease in soreness.
Also maybe have someone take a look at your form. Or do a couple workouts in front of a mirror or video camera. You could be off a bit on form. However, it is quite interesting that every muscle takes a long time to recover. Give the lower volume routine some time but it could just be something that you endup blaming on genetics.


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## Zeus100 (Mar 30, 2009)

Quick though on the diet is a lot of fruit, but not really any veggies outside of zucchini. 

There are a lot of nutrient dense, fibourous veggies that are low cal (can eat a ton). Looks to me like you maybe deficient in a few vitamin areas. Are your shakes just protein or "meal replacements" with some added nutrients? 

If you start a fitday account, it'll give you the info on how well you meet your daily recommended consumption of various vitamins and minerals -> and flag any long term misses. 

Most proteins don't seem to list any nutrient breakdowns outside the bare minimum (likely because they have none - you'll have confirm what your's actually has, if you can't verify it has some, it doesn't). 


From my very limited view, I'd guess your deficient in at least a few.


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## SubSolar (Mar 31, 2009)

Okay, I created a fitday account and made a typical day's diet:

FitDay Free Calorie Counter and Diet Journal: Public Journal

I'm getting a lot more protein than I thought, is this fitday accurate?  83.8 grams of protein from a chicken breast?

Built, I'm a pretty picky eater and there's not much more I can think of eating that I know how to cook and would be healthy.  I will try and think of other stuff to eat when I'm at the grocery store.

sendit, my sleeping patterns have never been normal but they are pretty consistent.  I suffer from sleep apnea, I use a CPAP machine religiously but I still need to take a nap in the afternoon to have enough energy to workout at night.  I probably sleep about 6-7 hours at night with a 1.5 to 2 hour nap.

Zeus, I agree I need to add more vegetables, I've never been a big fan of them.  I also sometimes eat corn, broccoli, and an artichoke.  For some reason I can't eat salad, lettuce, cabbage, etc.  Those leafy veggies just make me want to gag after a bite or two.  The Lean Body RTD feels like a meal replacement (small meal), but the Syntrax Nectar I take with straight water so it's just a drink I use to get more protein.

In addition to taking a long time to recover, I should note that when I do big exercises my muscles seem to fatigue easily.  For instance, after I squat my legs already seem "done" and I can't do much else after like lunges or leg presses on the same day.  Same with chest, I start with dumbbell bench and then I just work on triceps.  I can't do like flat, incline and decline dumbbell presses in a row like some people.  Should I just do a lot less weight so I can do more exercises?  This isn't a problem on other muscles like biceps, triceps, abs, etc--I can do multiple sets of 3 different exercises for each of those groups no problem.


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## sendit08 (Mar 31, 2009)

SubSolar said:


> Okay, I created a fitday account and made a typical day's diet:
> 
> FitDay Free Calorie Counter and Diet Journal: Public Journal
> 
> ...



fitday is definately accurate.

Your sleeping patters can definately effect recovery but I really dont have the knowledge to recommend anything for a more restful sleep other than maybe melatonin. But I dont know if that would help you. Id run it by your doctor. It can have many advantages.

as for veggies, I get mine from frozen stream fresh bags. You just put them in the microwave for 5 mins then you have about 4-6 servings of mixed veggies. I add a little seasoning salt for flavor then just chow down and eat them all at once.

Looking at your diet it may serve you to substitute the one of your shakes (not the post workout one) for a steak. It will increase your calories and give you some more protein. surely you like steak right?

Ditch all the isolation work. I rarely do isolation work when I train natural.  It is a waste of energy when you compare the results you will get from compound movements.  
If you want to ease into your comfort zone just do Bench and shoulder press only (3-5x5each) then next workout Deadlifts and pull/chinups only (same rr). then next workout squats and calf raises only (same rr). see how you feel after a few rotations of that at like 1 day on 1 day off and make additions from there.

aslo... there is no rule that says you cant take as long as you want to rest between sets...


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## Built (Mar 31, 2009)

That would be from a "double" chicken breast -both breast portions of an average roasting chicken. This works out t about 10 ounces cooked, or about 12-13 ounces of raw, boneless skinless chicken breast meat.


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## SubSolar (Mar 31, 2009)

sendit, I love steak, of course usually the tastier cuts that are fatty.  I try to only have it once or twice a week cause they say too much red meat is bad for ya.  It also seems to not sit as well with my stomach, unlike chicken and salmon.   And I've always taken about 3-5 minutes in between sets to make sure I can do as much as possible.  What kind of veggies are in those bags?  Which veggies are recommended in general for weight lifters (like which have the highest protein content)?

Built, I just go to vons and get the skinless chicken breasts from the deli.  Should I be using a different selection in fitday that the one I have in my fitday menu?


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## Built (Apr 1, 2009)

Dunno. Weigh them.


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## juggernaut (Apr 2, 2009)

sendit08 said:


> Thanks Built... But I must say after 3 years as a Kin major and numerous university level nutrition courses Ive learned a hell of a lot more from reading your posts over the last year or so.


 well said.


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## sendit08 (Apr 2, 2009)

SubSolar said:


> sendit, I love steak, of course usually the tastier cuts that are fatty.  I try to only have it once or twice a week cause they say too much red meat is bad for ya.  It also seems to not sit as well with my stomach, unlike chicken and salmon.   And I've always taken about 3-5 minutes in between sets to make sure I can do as much as possible.  What kind of veggies are in those bags?  Which veggies are recommended in general for weight lifters (like which have the highest protein content)?
> 
> Built, I just go to vons and get the skinless chicken breasts from the deli.  Should I be using a different selection in fitday that the one I have in my fitday menu?



they are called "steam fresh" by the company bird's eye. basically they are just mixed veggies (all sorts or variations) that you just throw the bag from the freezer into the microwave for like 6mins and they are ready. they are like 200 cals for an entire bag and each bag has around 15g fiber.  



juggernaut said:


> well said.



Its actually amazing how much bs they attempt to teach you at a University.
Its no wonder so many people out there with actual degrees are giving shitty advice.


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## DiGiTaL (Apr 2, 2009)

sendit08 said:


> Its actually amazing how much bs they attempt to teach you at a University.
> *Its no wonder so many people out there with actual degrees are giving shitty advice.*



thank god you wont be one of them  hehe


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## Built (Apr 2, 2009)

I have an actual degree. In fact, I have two actual degrees - one's in Mathematics/Statistics, the other's in OpLog. 

I just use my research background to go through pubmed. You'd think those teaching physiology, exercise science and kinesiology would do the same. 

<shrugs>

I don't get it. I had a woman with a kinesiology degree and a PT cert, working in her cousin's gym as a trainer, ask ME what she was doing wrong and what I was doing right.

I asked her "tell me your macronutrient breakdown and calories, and describe your training programme" - she was trying to lean out. 

She says "Okay, I don't know what I eat, but I eat clean"
I said: "There's your first mistake. Go on..."

She says "I go to the gym and do 20 minutes on each of three cardio machines before I do weights..."
I said: "there's your second..."

And she continues: "And then I lift circuit style, making sure to not rest between sets so I can keep my heart rate up"
I said: "there's your third."

What the hell do they TEACH these people?


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## nkira (Apr 6, 2009)

The problem with these people is that they look at it from job or money earning point of view. 

IMO they simple lack the passion for it.


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