# hydroxycut while on juice?



## Just a guy (Nov 25, 2003)

Whats up fellas... just a little ?.... i got 7 weeks of cyp left... and d-bol..  I am fat in my opinion... im stronger than hell but fat...  I would like to lose 15 lbs of Bodyfat... is that at all possible without losing 15 pd's of muscle?  I dont run...  But i will if that is what i absolutely HAVE to do...   I have a big ass bottle of Hydroxycut (ephreine free)  would it be smart to take that while on juice so maybe i could lose some fat??   Someone just give a suggestion on my diet...  what i should eat...  PLEASE IM TRIED OF BEING FAT!! HELP!!!


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## Just a guy (Nov 25, 2003)

cmon now fellas... someone has to know something


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## gr81 (Nov 25, 2003)

first of all an ephedra free product isn't going to help you, a strict diet will. Why don't you wait until you are off of gear to cut. For a thermogenic to work you have to have a decrease in cals but your kcals chould be high if you are running gear. Once you are done with your shit, get on your post cycle stuff, and go to the diet forum and construct a cutting diet. Its all about the diet, that will determine how much muscle you will keep. If you just start running hella and cut your cals way down then you will most likely lose plenty of muscle mass, you have to take it slow.


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## Just a guy (Nov 25, 2003)

so why not cut on the gear... so i want lose any muscle... ya know?


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## Mudge (Nov 25, 2003)

Cutting on the gear is still diet. Any legal fat burner will do about shyt for me.


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## Just a guy (Nov 25, 2003)

so what should i do??  how far can i cut my cals... should i lower the dosage of the cyp from 600 to like... 500? or 400?


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## gr81 (Nov 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Just a guy *_
> so why not cut on the gear... so i want lose any muscle... ya know?




what is the point of running a bulking style cycle then if you are gonna restrict your cals on it? You might as well not use then if you aren't gonna eat hella and take advantage of being on. You can cut weight naturally when you are off just fine, you don't need to be on test to cut BF. You are just looking for all the shortcuts aren't you. Why don't you do shit the old fashioned way and work hard. There are anabolics that are good to take when cutting and test isn't onew of them unless you are running a very low maintenance dose along with something else mostly anabolic.
Like mudge and I just told you, it is all diet. not hydroxycut or an anabolic.


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## Just a guy (Nov 25, 2003)

i way 240... do u think i should just try to get as fuckin huge as possible??


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## Just a guy (Nov 25, 2003)

i've been on for 16 weeks??


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## Just a guy (Nov 25, 2003)

Just thought it would be nice to lose some BF in the last 7 weeks...   i meen damn gr81... just thought it would be good to lose a little fat....


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## gr81 (Nov 25, 2003)

you mean weigh nto way.
Dude it is all up to you what your goals are, how should we know? do what you want. It doesn't sound like you have a very good base of knowledge judging by teh questions you are asking. I would do some much needed reading so you can answer some of your own questions. I can say that you are best to spend your time bulking when you are about 8-10% BF. There is no advantage being higher than that in regards to your building more muscle/fat ratio. If you are higher than that then maybe it is time to cut down to a lower BF.


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## Arnold (Nov 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Just a guy *_
> cmon now fellas... someone has to know something



Yeah, I know quite a bit.

For starters no supplement is going to get you lean, a proper diet will. So, I suggest you head over to the nutrition forum.


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## Mudge (Nov 25, 2003)

I agree, without magical genetics diet is going to be #1 when it comes to gaining quality weight or losing crappy weight. I have proven it to myself enough times that I have forced myself to be more active in the study of this stuff.

Unless you are on DNP or usnic acid there is no such thing as magical weight loss without good diet. Likewise if you just drop calories half hazardly you will lose muscle with it.


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## Just a guy (Nov 25, 2003)

ok screw it lol   im just gonna try to hit 270      and when i get off my cycle i'll cut.... just seems like i'll lose muscle that way... will clomid/nolva be a decent PCT... and how do you know your fully recovered???


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## Just a guy (Nov 25, 2003)

man a 16week cycle will drain the hell out of ya...  Hey and mudge... when u say the lower back pain comes from d-bol.... the pain is not really in the center... its more like on the side... and only hurts real bad when i take a deep breathe.... I know your liver wraps around there a little but.. along with your kidneys..

Oh and Gr81... aint this a discussion board?? where u ask questions you dont know??  I just happen to not know if I could cut at the end of cycle or not.....


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## Just a guy (Nov 25, 2003)

goin to DOC tommorow... its probably just a pulled muscle or something


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## gr81 (Nov 25, 2003)

yes it is important to ask questions, but it is also important to learn things on your own via research so people do not hand you the answers all the time. It isn't just important to know what, but to know how and why. Steriods are a big deal and one should know all they can before starting them. You are injeting synthetic hormones into your body for gods sake, you should have a basic knowledge base without having to ask people the simpler questions. don't you agree? It isn't smart to just start putting something major into your body without fully knowing all you can about them.


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## Just a guy (Nov 25, 2003)

yes it is important... But i dont know the answers to the ?'s  i asked... i could not find nothing on them... just wanted to see if yall had prior experience


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## Supermans Daddy (Nov 25, 2003)

I'm new to the game too, however I noticed a couple of key points in a careful reading of your questions and the reponses. I just fininished my frist cycle too,but GR81 is on point when he sprinkled you with the REAL, Like MUCH RESPECT to you my brother ,but DAMN you took something that changes your bodys chemisty and you don't know how to come back to normal or at least an idea,Love yourself my man, and as my boys would say "check yourself, before you wreck yourself.And I'm a dummy compared to 90% of the knowledgable cats here, and this might sound stupid, but ain't 16 weeks a long ass time for a beginning cycle. I'm no Guru, or doctor but just being on some stuff that strong and new to your body might be the reason your side hurts,God fobid it's your kidney or liver. Here are a few sites that give you info on drug profiles READ THIS AND SAVE YOUR OWN ASS!!! www.anabolicworld.com www.steroids.com.  On the weight cutting tip, I'm learning that everything these cats have said is word  about that diet tip. I do feel like I know a little more than the average bear about cutting weight,using extreme cardio. The bottom line is you can lose as much as you are willing to work off. Running is an EXCELLENT way to get rid off weight. I feel like I know this because I myself have lost 13lbs in the last 2 days (48hrs) and I was at 8% bodyfat when I did it.The shit ain't easy, but what in life thats real is? Remember this homey, Anabolics is an ENHANCER NOT THE ANSWER. It still comes down to having the balls to do the work( and the research )it takes to reach your goal and fuck everything else. I kinda know how you feel, but you gotta keep it real, at least with yourself.Good luck Playa


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## Just a guy (Nov 26, 2003)

13lbs in two days?? christ... see thats what i want to do lol... just aint a good runner (smoke too much)


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## Supermans Daddy (Nov 26, 2003)

I'm going to sprinkle you with this. Nothing but love for you homey.This what I'm doing and the stuff is working super! First I alternate every 2 weeks between ECA and Clenbutrol.  I'm running this for a total of 8 weeks. I use an ECA that seems to REALLY kick fat in the ass you can cop for under a dub ($20.00) at http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/fatloss.htm. Next  you'll need some clen there are a million places to cop just do a search and you'll find all of them ,I'm using the 20mcg  tabs made by Novegram.  I do 1cc every other day of Maxi B- 1000 www.barnyardhealth.com under a 10 piece ($10.00). I think that this next  spice may be what is supplying that overall kick to everything it's called Thyro-Activatior www.phyiscalenhancement.com . I personally believe it's the difference between Pimpin and Limpin, you feeling me? Next get up off your 240lb ass and hit the cardio like you mean it!!!!!!!!!!!! I do alot of running and boxing ,kickboxing,and grappling along with lifting, but you don't have to be that extreme to get results. I would say AT LEAST 30 minutes every other day for a couple of weeks should make you "bout it , bout it". As all the cats here have already said watch your diet, But here's something you may find attractive, with those items I gave you used as a stack, you can even eat some crazy shit and STILL lose weight. That does not mean you can run to the local diner and order all the shit on page 2, but I have lost like close to 15lbs in the last 72 hrs and I ate a couple slices of lemon pie LATE last nite,( not a good thing to do but I try to keep it real). You've got to drink a gang of water, I mean like a fish, feeling me? This is what works for me, I offer it only as a suggestion. I'm losing weight and I'm lifting more weight than I did a week ago. I'm down to 157lbs and I'm benching 310 for 10 reps, not amazing for most,but as GR81 would say "it's hella for the kid" as lifting is not really what I do. I'm sayin that to say you can drop crazy weight and gain strength at the same time. The next thing I want to shoot past you is this SMOKING IS WACK AS HELL, get rid of that shit with the quickness, smoking and training is like taking a bath in a scuba suit,STUPID! Makes no logic happen in my mind and if you think about long enough, not in yours either. Good luck. Be real.Hang tuff playa.


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## Martin Smolinsk (Nov 27, 2003)

Just a guy: I think you should really follow the advices given above. Jus a few things. Do you wanna say that you run 16 weeks on steroids? On test? Or some 10 plus the rest on clomid, clen...? If you want to run 16weeks on test, do not do it!!! I know what im saying! After some 8 or 9 weeks you dont feelany change in your strenght or mass. Your receptors are already full! There no reason to do it. Stop the cycle after 8 or 10 weeks by lowering the doses, then use clomid or whatever, then I would make a short brake and you can start your real cutting cycle with diet, cardio...two weeks on ECA and two weeks on clen is a very good thing, I lost some 20lbs for 6weeks this way.


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## gr81 (Nov 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Martin Smolinsk *_
> If you want to run 16weeks on test, do not do it!!! I know what im saying! After some 8 or 9 weeks you dont feelany change in your strenght or mass. Your receptors are already full! There no reason to do it. Stop the cycle after 8 or 10 weeks by lowering the doses, then use clomid or whatever,




this statement iso so wrong. where the hell did you read that after 8 weeks your receptors are full? BS. I dare you to post some valid info backing that up. Your receptors don't just get full like that, and certainly not after 8 weeks. There is also no benefit in pyramiding  cycle by tapering it down as you suggest either. I wholey recommend running you shit at least 12 weeks. IMO there is a better chance of keeing the gains you made when on a highly androgenic drug like test. The shorter the cycle, the bigger the probability that the percentage weight you gained at that point is gonna strickly water weight. there is nothing wrong with running a 12-16 week cycle, and it certainly isn't b/c your receptors will be full. that is bigus info man.


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## Martin Smolinsk (Nov 27, 2003)

Id like to see how you put on weight after lets say 10th week of test.....I think you do not, you just keep the gains you have. As far as the tapering is concerned. Everybody here does it and it works its not my invention! If we re talking bout the test, OK, you dont have to lower the doses here, but for dbol,... you have to. It will help you to keep the gains and you dont have to take so much clomid after the cycle. Thats it. 
I dont want to argue. I just want you to explain me why the hell I should not lower the dosage by the end. Do you want to say that you run on 1g of test per week, then you just stop it and the gains are kept??? For me, I do it always this way and I can tell you that I did not lose anything! I even put on some more weight and it was an androlic cycle.
I would be hapy if you could just explain to me what you do post cycle....in details. Thanks

I m always happy to see more opinions, more experiences, I don say you re wrong! I just would never try that. Thats all.


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## Just a guy (Nov 27, 2003)

i have heard of many people doing 16 week cycle;s... doin great for me.... went from 205 on bench to 350...  so... yeh


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## Just a guy (Nov 27, 2003)

mikhal... so ur doin this off cycle rite?  So when do u start your next Juice cycle??


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## Just a guy (Nov 27, 2003)

ok so here's a ?....  i want be able you use any of those things u listed mikhal except the Clen....  I have NO thyroid gland at all... its dead.. im hypothyroid... so how does this sound.... like after my post cycle start hydroxycut... chitosin... and Clen... what would be a good dosage on the Clen or what not?  Or what would be a different alternative to your cycle of drugs mikhal... so i could still keep muscle but lose the fat ...


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## Just a guy (Nov 27, 2003)

well shit... Clen is anabolic...  can u still take it inbetween cycles?  And you can only take it 2 weeks at a time rite?    just give me some info if you can.. i did some reading but couldnt really find out if you could do it AFTER a cycle or not... like a bridge between cycles


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## plouffe (Nov 27, 2003)

Just wait until your cycle is totally through, then just start cutting, concientrate on mass right now. Thats what Im talking bout bro!


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## Just a guy (Nov 27, 2003)

so clen is ok when im totally through with post cycle?


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## Mudge (Nov 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Just a guy *_
> well shit... Clen is anabolic...



Mildly anti-catabolic, not really anabolic like test man. You sound like you have alot of health related issues, and you seem to push the envelope more than most on top of that. 

Hope you stick around man.


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## Just a guy (Nov 27, 2003)

damn cuz... what u trying to say... im gonna die?  LoL hypo thyroid aint that big of a deal... im also hypo parathyroid (calcium defincientcy).. but doc said as long as it doesnt slow me down then im fine...  is clen real bad for u or somethin??


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## Just a guy (Nov 27, 2003)

it doesnt increase thyroid function or nothin rite?? as long as it dont do that neither then im ok... cuz i have NO thyroid.. its dead


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## Mudge (Nov 27, 2003)

Thyroid, blood pressure, your freakish weight gains, long ass cycles - thats all. If you have no thyroid output you are already on synthroid correct?

I have a friend at work who had high TSH levels yet still had a low body temperature, something wasn't working properly even though the thyroid was trying desperately to work. They put her on 25mcg of T3 daily and she is at least normalized now, albiet still overweight.


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## Supermans Daddy (Nov 27, 2003)

Yeah my man I been off exactly 13 days, I'd gained alot of mass (at least for me) really quick with Primo-bolen Depot And Deca with aweekly dose of Sus 250 did that for 8weeks then I finished off with 17 days. of Halo I went from 144 to 172 without trying.I'm down to 156 and I still feeling the strengh that I had at a jucied 172. My next run Jan . But I'm researching  some different cycles as I can't afford to be overweight at fight time. I'm thinking Anavar/winny/equ and close the show with Halo.My clen routine is pretty standard I think  each day I upped the dose by 25mcg or 1 tab in any case I started with 2 got to 8 stayed there for 6 days and then I down dosed by one a day.Dig this though, You better check with somebody here about using Thyro-Activatior if you've got some Med shit  happening But I also think as mentioned you want to max out while you are massing up For damn sure with all the risks you fronting, you want to get all you can if the cost is that high and still want to play.All the stuff for cutting was started end of cycle.


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## Just a guy (Nov 27, 2003)

u didnt use clomid or nothin for post cycle?? u lost 15 pounds after ur cycle was through?? muscle or fat??


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## Just a guy (Nov 27, 2003)

just did some more reading on Clen... is it really dangerous?  is their another fat burner that is safer?    Because i never wanted to use ephedrine... but they say clen is like stronger than epherdrine.... mite just use Hydroxycut(no epherdrine) and the chitosin... any other opinions on what to use for cutting after a 16 week cycle??


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## Mudge (Nov 27, 2003)

Clen or thyroid meds are as pussy as you are going to get, without using something OTC.

Anything is dangerous if missused, including water, or your index finger.


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## Just a guy (Nov 27, 2003)

just seems like clen is gonna mess with my heart rate alot...  So you think i'd be alrite with it (i know your psychic abilities are failing you).. im just asking... u know how my heart acts... and all of those people having heart attacts on epherdrine... whats that all about?


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## Mudge (Nov 27, 2003)

Clen is pretty safe IMO, keep the dose reasonable and dont run it for more than 2 weeks at a time. Longer than that requires precautions.


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## Just a guy (Nov 27, 2003)

well i just got done with some more reading... it seems like that clen stuff messes with the thyroid... it says it cuts Alot of the active thyroid down...   I dont think this is the stuff for me in my situation.... any other good fat burner??   i dont know how strong hydroxycut without epehdrine  is...


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## Just a guy (Nov 27, 2003)

say when My cycle and post cycle is over... and I want to keep the muscle I have and lose the fat...  What could i use legally to help me in this...  Creatine?  Glutamine?  I'm not real sure which one would work or what not...  anyone have any expiernce in this situation?


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## Supermans Daddy (Nov 27, 2003)

I was  and am still finishing a Nolvadax 14 day run. And I lost what at least appears to have been extra fat from everywhere. Even my glutes are ripped, and as I said earlier I'm lifting more so it does not seem like I lost muscle. Man it really seems like you've got some serious health issuses though. If you are worried about the effect of clen on your health and you don't do ECA, damn homey I don't know what to suggest, Like I said from the rip, that's what works for me.Man on the real BE CAREFUL, the more you reveal the more you make me feel like Why are you even fucking around with your life this way, unless you make a living off of your body,It don't sound worth the risk . But roll how you gotta roll. I'll make my part simple, when all else fails , do cardio fuck it


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## Just a guy (Nov 27, 2003)

Man.. hypothyroid is not that big of a deal... im just worried cuz i dont want the doc up my ass about my tsh levels being out of wack... and then they will have to change my medicine... i seriously dought it would hurt me except over a long period of time....   just didnt want to have to go through the trouble of that...  ya know what i meen?  I meen if i had a heart mermur or somethin i would be worried but hypothyroid isint shit... i know you didnt know that... and im not tryin to sound like a ass... but i have done alot of reading over the past 4 years on hypothyroid and roids... and just 6 months ago i discovered it wouldn't be bad for me at all... except maybe Extended half-life's do to slower excretion... trust me fellas... im fine.. and i want get hurt... hopefully... im trying to do whatever i can do to stay in the game and stay healthy... i didnt just jump into it...   

With all of that said... hydroxycut... chitosin... maybe a carb blocker... glutamine... and creatine... does that sound decent to keep muscle but lose some body fat... and yes ALOT of cardio... maybe someone know a real good stack?  Appreciate the looking out mikhal


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## Just a guy (Nov 27, 2003)

maybe i should take this to supplement forum... prolly a good idea... not unless yall know of a different REAL good fat burner that maybe dont mess with thyroid... i'll do some searchin


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## Mudge (Nov 27, 2003)

I dont think "real good" fat burners exist, when using T3 in moderate doses I got some decent results (thyroid medication), if your thyroid is dead I hardly see why you care since you are using it already anyway right?

However, it was still diet that got my waist line down, not much difference from getting off of the T3 @ 60mcg daily.

The only serious fat burners are deadly IMO, the other stuff is a minor helper and nothing more.


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## Supermans Daddy (Nov 27, 2003)

You know I just thought about a way old school fighters used to cut weight. I know that this worked for me at the time but once again it's all about the diet. First this is not the most fun tasting stuff, and I'm sure that all the bodybuilders at this site know many other effective ways. I'm not looking for drama from anyone asking me how or why it works, cause I have no idea, Choline/Inositol/B6 and drink a glass of Cider vineger with a tablespoon of honey some cats added lecithin and that was the thing in the late 50's thru 90's at Kronk and every other world class boxing gym( until everybody got hip to sneaking in gear). No I'm not a warlock ha ha, I'm just trying to spread that little tip. I've done it and I've seen cats lose crazy weight and be strong enough to win 12 rd title fights. But then again the magic word in all my examples is CARDIO. I'm not trying to weigh 200 or even 160, I'm all about strength and looking swell, so you may find that my way is not that cool for what your goals are.  I love bodybuilding,but in reality I'm not really a bodybuilder , I'm more of a body breaker you feeling me? Peace


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## gr81 (Nov 28, 2003)

dude, after your cycle it isnt' really necessarily important to worry about fat burners. You should be worrying about eating right so you can hold on to your gains when your hormone levels dip, which they will soon. You aren't gonna find a good fat burtner that is superior to the ECA stack. all that other stuff is useless if the diet isn't squared away. IMO clen isn't a very great drug. You are certainly not going to build any muscle with it and it does mess with thyriod levels. Not a good plan for you. You need to be more conscious of your bodies needs and not putting it in risky situations. You have had heart problems so you don't need to be experimenting with stimulants or thermogenics IMO. All you need is a good diet and you need to concentrate on holding on to the muscle you gained, a diet will be eenough to lose the fat you want. Stop looking for answers in drugs, look for it through discipline and hard work!


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## Just a guy (Nov 28, 2003)

Alrite...   So does this sound good...   After the post cycle... yes im going to take hydroxycut... and chitosin... now what would be a good diet plan??  Low carbs??  and high protein...  i just dont get how i can cut down on calories and maintain the same muscle... but i will try!  i'll do alot of running and get that diet rite


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## Just a guy (Nov 28, 2003)

ok here's my ?  should i still continue to consume JUST as much protein off cycle?  cuz im getting like 300-400g's a day... prolly more... and weight gainer...


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## gr81 (Nov 28, 2003)

mantain until your hormoone levels return to normal and then restrict cals.


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## Just a guy (Nov 28, 2003)

hopefully im not sounding like a dumbass....  but how do you know when your levels are back to normal?? blood test rite??  or just when post cycle is over


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## Mudge (Nov 28, 2003)

Actually, even one blood test can be fooled because PCT can bring levels up and then they can go back down afterwards, so you do the best you can.

With HCG in the mix I have heard of successfull blood results in 6 weeks of PCT.

If I called my PCT one week long how does that equate to a successfull recouperation?

You are probably taking in 300-400 or more? You dont even know? There is a lot of variance there. I try to never dip below 330 or so for the day, bulking I am close to 450 right now. I never, ever touch weight gainer, I'm not looking to be a sumo.


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## Supermans Daddy (Nov 28, 2003)

Hey man, word, you need to just cool your jets and recover correct stylo.Do what sounds right after you check to make sure you're straight. And try some old school "hard work".marinade on what you're REALLY trying to accomplish,(hobby,bodybuilding,rec,model,sport,pimp,etc) then when you're feeling positive about what you want and what can and or has to be done  to get it safe style.then go on and throw dizzle fo shizzle.  Be sure not to put salt in the game by not doing the proper research.Now, Be bout it.


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## Just a guy (Nov 29, 2003)

well guys... i quit my cycle today... i had 4 more weeks left of cyp and d-bol... but ya know what...  my body feels like shit... i feel drained 24/7 and i aint noticing any spectacular gains no more and 12 weeks is long enough.... so im going to start my post cycle in like a week and a half... but im gonna go ahead and start running....   my post cycle is only nolva and clomid..... i think i only have enough to last 3 or 4 week.... and the 1st week is 100 of clomid and 40 of nolva and then after that just keeping it at one dose a day instead of 2...  prolly not a good idea to start the hydroxycut, glutamine, and chitosan now rite?  should i wait till post cycle is over?  im thinking so..  now im trying the best i can to keep muscle and lose fat... any extra opinions would be great... any change in my diet will be great just for the fact i have never had one really... since i was bulking i was on a see-food diet.. and that expains the Shamoo effect going on...  so im gonna try to keep my diet clean... no pizza... skinless chicken... u know stuff like that... and prolly only 2 protein shakes a day....  whats a good range to keep my protein in.. off cycle??  and any other legal supplements good for maintaining muscle  would be great... thx


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## Just a guy (Nov 29, 2003)

or illegal... just cant mess with my thyroid


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## Mudge (Nov 29, 2003)

3 or 4 weeks of PCT for a 16 week cycle?

If you are running a cycle for that long unless you are freaking on the doses you are going to stagnate, because your own test levels hit the floor so you have less total test than when you started the cycle with, that should have occured long ago. *Receptor saturation is a myth, otherwise year round users would not exist.*

See food diets put the weight on me no problem, but likewise I get fat. Right now I am holding a 37.5" waist and can see to some degree 6 of my abs, at my  height a 37" waist is actually decent. I have not seen 34.5" since I was under 200 pounds.


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## Just a guy (Nov 29, 2003)

i hear ya... its a 12 week cycle... so u dont think that is enough for post cycle..?


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## Mudge (Nov 29, 2003)

Not for me man.


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## Martin Smolinsk (Nov 30, 2003)

Just a guy: yeah, maybe, but the longer cycle you do the most difficult recovery you will have!!! And then, I have to repeat what Ive already said: I dont believe that you will put on more muscles doing a 16 week cycle than doing 10weeks on test.
As far as the "bridge" between the cycles is concerned, I would really like to know how you others do it, cause I believe that your body needs some break, you cannot take the drugs all the time non stop. Thats why I use creatine and glutamine between my cycles and it seems to work very well at least for me. 

Just a guy: remember what I told you? No more gains after 10th week! And now you found out that it was true???..if you wanted to run a 16 week cycle you would have to change the steroids, am I right? 

Martin


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## Mudge (Nov 30, 2003)

You dont have to change gear. I agree there is no real such thing as a bridge without some suppression occuring (unless its a non suppressive drug), its been proven enough times.

600mg is not that much, I am at a point where I have to use more as well.

I do know a year rounder who switches between enanthate and cypionate every 6 months, 1.2 grams a week.


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## Supermans Daddy (Nov 30, 2003)

Now I've gotta ask even at the risk of sounding stupid,is it really possible to stay on cycles that last year round and change gear, and still remain healthly? Would'nt you need some brake time even a couple of weeks or something to keep it together.


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## Mudge (Nov 30, 2003)

I would be moderately supprised if a single pro or heavyweight NPC guy came off at all, for 4-8 weeks during the year maybe (smaller guys).

Expect to be doing blood tests once every 2-4 weeks though at that level. Healthy, well that could mean a whole lot of things. Still living and beathing, entirely possible. Having kids, moderately possible. There are plenty of big guys who do come off, but 6 month cycles get to be the norm after awhile, and they can still successfully impregnate people as proven by Needsize.

So maybe define healthy here, if you take precautions it can be done.


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## Supermans Daddy (Nov 30, 2003)

WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not for the kid !!!!!!! Thanks for the low down!


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## Mudge (Nov 30, 2003)

Essentially you are looking at cholesterol levels out of whack, blood pressure issues, dead steroli cells (no sperm production), and dead leydig cells (no natural testosterone, shrivled nuts unless using HCG).


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## Supermans Daddy (Dec 1, 2003)

Damn, talk about paying the cost to be the boss!


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## Just a guy (Dec 1, 2003)

Already lost 10 pounds guys... i started the hydroxycut and started running... with the glutamine... 240 to 230... becoming unfat


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## Supermans Daddy (Dec 1, 2003)

MY MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MAD PROPS!!!!!!!!!!!! DO DAT THANG BABY BOY! I really compliment you on doing that over the holidays when most people GAIN weight. Now stay true to the game and keep that cardio booming homey.I ain't mad at cha. GREAT WORK! Keep that up and you and me will be in the same weight class. ha ha ha ( Now that would scare the shit outta you) ha ha


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## Just a guy (Dec 2, 2003)

LoL


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## Martin Smolinsk (Dec 2, 2003)

"I do know a year rounder who switches between enanthate and cypionate every 6 months, 1.2 grams a week."
Mudge: and does he look like that? I mean is he so big that one would say that he is on the juice one year without a brake??? Or in other words Is it worth the risk? I mean in your opinion.


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## Mudge (Dec 2, 2003)

NPC Heavyweight, 270 pounds @ 10% bodyfat, he's no jerkoff, 22 years old.


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## Supermans Daddy (Dec 3, 2003)

Just a Guy, I don't know how I fogot to suggest this , must be slippen. Try jumping rope, now that burns fat and water off instantly. roll with it about 10 minutes a day, see what that does, when you get comfortable with that add 3 more minutes,and go from there. PEACE


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## Martin Smolinsk (Dec 3, 2003)

NPC Heavyweight, 270 pounds @ 10% bodyfat, he's no jerkoff, 22 years old.

Then it works...

Mudge, can I know how old you are?


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## Mudge (Dec 3, 2003)

27


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 3, 2003)

Just a kid...


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## Mudge (Dec 3, 2003)

I wouldn't mind being 23 again, some of the girls are just a tad young these days


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## Martin Smolinsk (Dec 3, 2003)

thanks dude


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## Martin Smolinsk (Dec 3, 2003)

Mudge, I want to ask you st. I have a text, its a translation into EN, if you can have a look a send it back to me by tomorrow evening, send me an email. What I need is to read it and correct al gramatical mistakes and say what phrases are not understandable to a native speaker...
martinmax@azet.sk

its some ten pages, Id be very thankful to you, if you could do it for me, bro 

Martin


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## Mudge (Dec 3, 2003)

Oy vey, 10 pages in one day is a little short notice man, time is not something I have alot of actually right now.


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## Just a guy (Dec 3, 2003)

down to 225!! fuq yeh!   how am i losing weight so fast?? i meen i feel great      and have not lost any strength... well except on the butterfly machine... i guess im not as aggresive cuz i used to be able to do all the weight for 3 sets... had to take off 20 pounds


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## Just a guy (Dec 3, 2003)

it must be the glutamine


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## Mudge (Dec 3, 2003)

Water weight will go up or down easily, but pulling back some calories and I can lose weight quickly too, the difference between a pizza or ice cream a day is an easy 2000-2400 calories.


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## Just a guy (Dec 3, 2003)

yeh i went from 5,000 calories to like 2k  figured i would feel like shit... that glutamine makes me think better 2.... its the food for the brain ( so i read)


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## Mudge (Dec 3, 2003)

2k is too much of a cut for me personally, I dropped down to 210 with 2300 calories a day, but I went down SLOWLY I do not cut calories instantaneously.


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## Martin Smolinsk (Dec 4, 2003)

Mudge, well, I understand :-(


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## gr81 (Dec 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Just a guy *_
> it must be the glutamine




it sure as fuck ain't the glutamine, that stuff ain't shit man IMO. It is probably the water weight and kcal deficit that did it, s mentioned above. You shouldn't cut your cals so much so quick bro, that is if you wanna keep any gains. Cutting should be much slower of a process otherwise youa re bound ot lose muscle mass, especially with hormone levels dippin!


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## Mudge (Dec 4, 2003)

I have seen litterally 2 or 3 people claim glutamine works for them, on a cut or bulk.

I have not tried it myself.


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## gr81 (Dec 4, 2003)

They must be full of shit. it has no thermogenic or fat buring proporties of any kids, it was obviously something else they did while taking it that caused change. i have gone through my share of glutamine back in the day and IMO is is worthless from a BB standpoint.


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## Just a guy (Dec 5, 2003)

no... u dont understand.... im barely eating... but im keeping muscle and strength... i just weighed myself... 220! unbelievable... that shit keeps your muscles from Detereorating(cant spell)... so far so good here....   it has not made me lose more weight... it has not made me get stronger... but it HAS kept my muscle with me... considering im only eating 2,000 calories a day  IF even that...


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## Just a guy (Dec 5, 2003)

i looked it up in a Medical book


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## gr81 (Dec 5, 2003)

dude the anabolics are probably not even out of your system yet, it ain't teh glutamine. I tell you what, post for me any type of factual based info from a legit source saying that glutamine is responsible for that. It doesn't prevent catabolism, it can help with your immune system btu it doesn't prevent muscle breakdown by itself


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## Just a guy (Dec 5, 2003)

facts??  cuz i read that shit in a medical book man...   but just for YOUR entertainment i will find some info


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## Just a guy (Dec 5, 2003)

L-Glutamine is manufactured by the liver and lungs, so it is considered a non-essential amino acid, however, during strenuous exercise or heavy stress loads, the need for glutamine can increase beyond the body???s ability to synthesize it, and therefore it becomes ???conditionally essential???. Recent research demonstrates the dramatic effect exertion has on the body???s glutamine reserves. For example, athletes doing intensive anaerobic exercise showed a 45% drop in plasma glutamine compared to pre-exercise levels. When the same athletes continued aerobic exercise for 10 days, their plasma glutamine dropped by 50%. Some still had depressed glutamine levels even six days after recovery from the exercise. This suggests that they need more glutamine than their diets provided and their liver could manufacture. Athletes who overstress their muscles (without adequate time for recovery and/or without glutamine replenishment) may be at increased risk for infection and often recover slowly from injuries. The amid group of L-Glutamine contributes to the biosynthesis of hexosamines such as glucosamine and therefore can help protect joints from degradation and injury.

These findings are significant for anyone wanting to increase strength and muscle mass, as glutamine is essential to muscle growth. It???s the most prominent amino acid comprising muscle tissue. Findings indicate that glutamine may reduce the rate of muscle breakdown (anticatabolic) relative to the rate of muscle growth (anabolic) and increase concentrations of plasma arginine and glutamate, two amino acids linked to Human Growth Hormone (HGH) production, which among many things, signals muscles to grow.

In another study, subjects were given either placebo or 2 g. of glutamine to drink. After 90 minutes, blood samples were analyzed for bicarbonate and plasma HGH, two substances stimulated by glutamine. Subjects who consumed the glutamine showed significant increases in bicarbonate (12%) and HGH (up to 430%), whereas those consuming placebo showed no changes.

Subjects who consumed the glutamine showed significant increases in bicarbonate (12%) and HGH (up to a whopping 430%)

HGH (Human Growth Hormone) is produced by the pituitary gland, and aids in a variety of health functions. According to researchers, human levels of HGH begin to drop around the age of 30, and some experts claim that its level may diminish by as much as 80% over time. Its decline is believed to be a causative factor in modern aging symptoms such as weight gain, reduced energy, muscle loss (muscle breakdown is accelerated under acidic conditions), wrinkles, declining mental alertness, weakened immune system, vision problems and more. Glutamine is also used to make the very important antioxidant glutathione.

Bicarbonate functions as a buffer in the body to neutralize excess blood and muscle acids (such as lactic acid) generated especially during heavy anaerobic exercises. Lactic and other acids, if allowed to accumulate, lead to fatigue and muscle soreness, and also has a catabolic effect on muscle tissue. Glutamine itself acts as a buffer as well, its negative charge negating the net positive charge of acids (H+). Research indicates that glutamine supplements may provide additional buffering power when the acid/base balance becomes more acidic ??? enabling longer, harder workouts with less muscle soreness the next day. Glutamine is also important for removing excess ammonia (a common waste product in the body).


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## Just a guy (Dec 5, 2003)

i found about 11 articals saying the same thing... what else do u want??   quit being so critical im just trying to lose fat and keep all the muscle i can....  dont hold me down cuz


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## Just a guy (Dec 5, 2003)

shit it might not be as strong as some thing else... but it does what i read in the medical book....  but u want admit to it.. i know

How bout this... YOU do some reading post something that contradicts what i have read...  so far i am unable to find ANYTHING on what u have said.... have fun


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## gr81 (Dec 5, 2003)

Here ya go man. this is probably more recent than what you posted. It is certianly from a source that is more focused in the BB aspect than a medical journal is. Believe what you want though. Its all good.


Glutamine
Destroying the Dogma, Part 1
by David J. Barr

One of the most frequent supplement questions I get as a strength coach is whether or not athletes should use the amino acid glutamine for either performance enhancement or size gains. 

The topic comes up so much that it almost seems as though glutamine is a "no brainer" supplement just like creatine. In fact, its popularity is such that at least two separate online message boards, as well as numerous magazines, have feature articles on the use of glutamine as a supplement. The dogma of glutamine supplementation had even permeated the SWIS symposium to the extent that the numerous conversations about this amino acid were solely about how much to take, rather than whether or not to take it. 

So, it seems as though everything is pretty cut and dried when it comes to glutamine use??? or is it? While there was some literature-supported speculation as to the potential benefits of glutamine supplementation, there needs to be an updated review of the literature examining the current status of this purported "wonder supplement." In fact, there's quite a bit of information that's been left out of the popular bodybuilding literature that needs to be brought to light. 

But before we get on to that, we should review some of the basics of glutamine.


Glutamine: The Basics

For those of you who are new to the concept of glutamine supplementation, you should know that it's a non-essential amino acid created largely by our muscles. It's also noteworthy that glutamine is the most abundant free amino acid in our bodies, comprising up to 2/3 of the muscle free amino acid pool.(13) This fact, coupled with the idea that muscle is the largest producer of this amino acid, could suggest that supplementation would be beneficial.

One potential problem with this is that glutamine is a non-essential amino acid (meaning that we don't have to consume outside sources containing this amino acid because our bodies can make it on its own), but this is where things get interesting: the use of glutamine by many different cells in our bodies is so great that there may be times when its use exceeds its availability, therefore glutamine has been termed a "conditionally essential" amino acid.(18) 

This means that during times of physical stress the body may actually need glutamine from the diet to maintain proper cellular function. Clearly, activities such as resistance training constitute a physical stress on the body, which is one reason that athletes have been targeted for glutamine supplementation.

Another interesting fact about our muscles and glutamine is the issue of transport. For an amino acid to get into or out of our muscles, it has to be transported by specific carriers. Using these carriers, our muscle takes up amino acids according to demand from protein composition (i.e. what our muscles need the most), BUT amino acid release is NOT according to composition. 

Alanine and glutamine can account for up to 50% of amino acid release from muscle despite accounting for only about 15% of total muscle protein.(31) Obviously, this is a huge discrepancy???which is normally made up for through glutamine production???but as mentioned earlier, during times of physical stress (i.e. exercise), the synthesis of glutamine is hindered. Everyone knows that lacking even one amino acid can hinder muscle growth, which fortifies the theory of glutamine supplementation by athletes.

Now that you're familiar with the basics behind glutamine supplementation, it's time to delve into the literature and pull out some more specific theories as to the beneficial effects of glutamine supplementation.


Glutamine and Muscle Mass

Interest first arose in glutamine as a supplement when it was found that glutamine enrichment elevated levels of protein synthesis in isolated rat muscles.(21) This isn't surprising since it's also been found that muscle protein synthesis levels can be correlated with free glutamine levels.(17) It's also been shown in vitro using rat skeletal muscle cells that glutamine may decrease protein breakdown.(22) 

Additionally, we know that the anabolic/catabolic state of a muscle cell is related to it's hydration status???this simply means that cellular swelling has an anabolic or an anticatabolic effect on the affected cells (including muscle cells). Based on this, it's been found that glutamine supplementation may mediate cell swelling and therefore an anticatabolic effect through either increasing cell swelling or hindering cellular dehydration.(28)

Sure you say, these theories are all well and good in cell cultures or animals, but what about the human studies? Well, studies in humans indicate that glutamine supplementation may improve nitrogen balance in critically ill patients, as well as assist in the prevention of protein synthesis decreases following surgery (a HUGE physical stress) or following a 14-hour fast.(13, 12,24,13) There have even been a couple of studies done on resistance trained subjects (more on that a little later)!


Glutamine and Overtraining

We've all felt the scourge of overtraining: the lethargy, the sickness, and the lack of desire to train. Aside from the horrible feeling associated with overtraining, we also know that the longer we're out of the gym, the longer we go without any anabolic stimulus to our muscles. Based on this, another theory suggesting glutamine supplementation for athletes involves the prevention of overtraining.

Glutamine is used as a fuel source by many cells of our body, including many cells of our immune system. Now if you recall that there are times of stress where the body's production fails to meet its needs for glutamine, you can see that this could negatively affect the immune system. In fact, you may not be surprised to find that blood glutamine levels may be compromised following exercise induced overtraining.(1) 

Surveys of endurance athletes supplementing with glutamine following a marathon race showed lower rates of infection than those who didn't supplement.(8,9) As for the applicability to bodybuilding, one study showed that resistance exercise may induce a small transient (ie short-term) negative effect on some cells of the immune system, although plasma glutamine levels weren't examined.(6)

So now we have theories for glutamine supplementation to increase protein synthesis/inhibit protein breakdown, as well as boost immunity following intense exercise. This sounds great, but we have yet to look at glutamine's potential effect to stimulate glycogen replenishment following exercise. Glutamine infusion has been shown to enhance glycogen stores following cycling exercise twice as much as compared to subjects who infused saline or other amino acids.(27) If this happened after weight training, it could even help with our cellular swelling and have the aforementioned postive effect on protein accretion. 

Another study supports the use of glutamine for enhancing muscle glycogen. Bowtell et al. found that glutamine supplementation following exercise enhanced glycogen resynthesis in muscle just as well as the ingestion of a glucose polymer.(4)

Sadly at this point, many readers have already gone out and bought their kilos of glutamine, and are now reading only to find out how to use the stuff. You may argue, why not? There's plenty of evidence to support the theories presented! This was exactly the thinking when glutamine was introduced to bodybuilders several years ago. In fact, the journal articles reviewed above are the same research papers that can be found time and again, in any outdated article that's trying to sell you on glutamine. But things have recently changed; new studies have been done on animals, and people involved in resistance training, but the results are less than positive.


What the Glutamine Salespeople Don't Want You To Know:

Glutamine and Protein Synthesis ??? The other side of the coin

We've seen the theory that glutamine levels in the blood and muscle may decrease during or following exercise, and that this decrease correlates with reduced levels of protein synthesis. Several studies have addressed whether this relationship between glutamine and protein synthesis was a coincidental or a causal (meaning that one caused the other) relationship. 

The first study compared the abilities of glutamine and the amino acid alanine to stimulate protein synthesis in rats with artificially reduced blood and muscle glutamine levels.(23) As expected, glutamine infusion increased intramuscular glutamine levels, while alanine didn't. Surprisingly, even depleting muscle glutamine levels by 60% had no effect on protein synthesis. What may also surprise you is that restoring blood and muscle glutamine levels to normal had no effect on protein synthesis compared to rats receiving no glutamine treatment! Additionally, even though whole body protein turnover didn't change, alanine stimulated protein synthesis! 

In support of this contention, researchers studied the effect of glutamine supplementation on septic rats. Sepsis is a severely catabolic condition, during which glutamine levels (and protein synthesis) fall. Again, this study showed that despite increasing muscle glutamine levels to even higher than normal, it had no effect on protein synthesis or the catabolic state of the rats.(11) 

Cumulatively, these studies show that decreased or increased levels of glutamine in the muscle has no effect on protein synthesis. 

Another study, performed on people, examined the effect of adding glutamine to an amino acid mixture on muscle protein synthesis .(30) Ultimately, infusion of the original amino acid mixture increased protein synthesis by nearly 50%, but adding glutamine to this mix had no additional effect. This study is particularly relevant because most consumers of glutamine do so following a workout, along with other amino acids (or a whole protein). 

Finally, Wusteman et al., used a drug to reduce muscle protein synthesis, along with muscle glutamine levels, in rats.(29) Much like the Olde Damink et al. study, restoring muscle glutamine levels to normal had no effect on protein synthesis. This study further supports the concept that blood and muscle glutamine levels have no bearing on protein synthesis and protein turnover.


Editor's note: Part 2, which pretty much presents a case for relegating glutamine to the Retired Supplements shelf (except for very specific circumstances) will be posted next week.


David J. Barr, CSCS, MSc. Candidate, is a Varsity Strength and Conditioning Coach at the University of Waterloo.


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## gr81 (Dec 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Just a guy *_
> i found about 11 articals saying the same thing... what else do u want??   quit being so critical im just trying to lose fat and keep all the muscle i can....  dont hold me down cuz




I am not trying to "hold you down" bro, I am just saying ti is foolish to attribute those affect to glutamine. How long have you been off you anabolics?


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## gr81 (Dec 5, 2003)

here is part two fro you to read, if you care to. It addresses much of what you were claiming, its a good read.

Glutamine
Destroying the Dogma, Part 2
by David J. Barr


Last week, David Barr started shooting holes into the reputation of the long-standing bodybuilding supplement, glutamine.. While glutamine was staggered and bleeding at the end of part 1, watch as Barr sticks a sharp knife into glutamine's still barely beating heart and twists it.


Another One Bites the Dust

You may recall that the theory of exercise induced immunosuppression is often cited, based on the fact that glutamine levels decrease after exercise, as does our immunity.(10) 

What we must now address is whether the relationship between the body???s glutamine stores and the effects of exercise on the immune system exhibit a causal or coincidental relationship (just as we did for protein synthesis). A recent review article in "The Journal of Applied Physiology" examined this connection between plasma glutamine and exercise-induced immunosuppression.(15)

The study admitted that there are conflicting reports about plasma glutamine levels following long duration exercise, repeated high intensity bouts, as well as short single high intensity bouts. This indicates that plasma glutamine concentrations may be affected differently depending on the intensity and duration of exercise. 

Even data on blood glutamine concentrations following eccentric exercise is mixed, which can relate directly to bodybuilders and their use of heavy loads. Based on the relatively small reductions in plasma glutamine that might occur following exercise, supplementation with glutamine wouldn???t likely affect the immune cells. 

More importantly, there are several studies showing that glutamine supplementation doesn't alter exercise-induced suppression of the immune system! The bottom line is that blood glutamine levels, whether they drop or not following exercise, don???t seem to affect immunity to any great extent, which precludes the use of glutamine for this reason.

Another recent review looked at over 75 research papers pertaining to the effect of glutamine on immunity and muscle growth, and came to the following conclusion: "Overall, although glutamine obviously plays important metabolic roles within the body, supplementation does not appear to provide consistent beneficial or therapeutic effects, except during certain catabolic situations. Glutamine availability, therefore, does not seem to be a limitation in many challenge situations."(19)


What about the glycogen?!

Yep, we have one final theory to validate spending God-awful amounts of money on glutamine; that of enhanced glycogen resynthesis following our workouts. In addition to the aforementioned studies showing better glycogen storage, there is also a study showing no effect of oral glutamine on glycogen regeneration following high intensity interval training.(26) 

This issue was actually addressed by the authors of the Candow study, who found no strength or mass changes in trained individuals using glutamine (versus a placebo).(7) They suggested that the studies done showing enhanced glycogen recovery used exercise bouts which depleted intramuscular glycogen by 90%(!), while resistance exercise only depletes muscular glycogen by ~36%. 

The bottom line is that the jury is still out on glutamine enhancing glycogen resynthesis following resistance exercise, but it seems unlikely that it would have any effect. Toss in the huge amounts of high glycemic carbs that most of us use following our workouts, and it???s almost a sure bet that glutamine won???t do anything for additional glycogen storage under normal dietary situations. 


Things That Mom Never Told You About Glutamine Supplementation

It???s important to examine the method used for getting glutamine into the body in the human studies presented. Unfortunately, getting glutamine into our blood and to our muscles is a lot harder than one may expect. It was mentioned earlier that many cells of the body use glutamine for fuel. Well one area of cells that just loves glutamine is the gastrointestinal tract. In fact, it can account for up to 40% of glutamine utilization in the body! Now figure out the first area to come into contact with our "wonder supplement," and you can see that you have to take a whole crap-load of the stuff all at once, just so our gut doesn???t use it all! 

Now, dumping 20g of one amino acid into our bodies at once may sound fun to some, but then again we can safely call these people masochists. For the rest of us, this huge glutamine dump may lead to some GI distress, which we all know is NOT fun. 

Fortunately, the two studies performed with bodybuilders using relatively high dosages of glutamine (0.3g/kg/d and 0.9g/kg lean mass/d) reported no side effects of any kind.(2, 7) What is unfortunate is that the authors of these studies also showed no positive effect of any kind!


Glutamine and Resistance Trained Athletes: The Studies

One recent study examined the effect of acute glutamine ingestion on weightlifting performance.(2) This study examined the potential buffering effect of glutamine on lactic acid production during resistance exercise (to the point of momentary muscular failure). 

One hour following glutamine ingestion (0.3g/kg), glycine ingestion (0.3g/kg), or placebo drink ingestion, the trained subjects performed 2 sets each of leg press (@ 200% body weight) and bench press (@ 100% body weight). This would equate to an average of ~23g of either amino acid ingested all at once, but there were no reports of GI discomfort. 

Each subject consumed one of the three supplements before three separate testing sessions separated by a week. There was no effect of glutamine on number of reps performed compared to glycine or placebo ingestion. These results indicate that a high dose of glutamine ingested before exercise has no positive or negative effects on weightlifting performance in trained subjects.

If you???re interested in glutamine for its effect on muscle mass and strength, you???re in luck because a study was done on that, too! This next study is undoubtedly one of the best kept secrets in bodybuilding! In this study, the trained subjects consumed either 0.9g/kg lean body mass/day (average of 45g/day!), or a placebo, in 2 divided doses.(7) 

It's noteworthy that using this amount of glutamine would run over 1200$USD per year for a 200lb guy!

By the end of the 6-week period, there were no differences in terms of 1Rep Max on squat or bench between the groups. There were also no differences between groups when it came to the gains in lean body mass (i.e. the amount of muscle they put on) during the trial period. This study was well designed and used the highest amount of glutamine ever studied for these purposes.


Glutamine Ain't All That Bad

After kicking the crap out of glutamine for most bodybuilding purposes, it is important to realize that there are certain situations where glutamine can be useful.

A recent study from the journal "Metabolism" shows that glutamine injections following glucocorticoid (ie catabolic steroid -such as cortisol) treatment can increase protein synthesis in the gastrointestinal system of dogs.(16) Unfortunately, nonoxidative leucine disposal, a measure of whole-body protein synthesis, remained unchanged in the glutamine treated group. 

There are a dozen ways you could interpret these findings, but at least we can say that glutamine supplementation may improve protein synthesis in some tissues following gluccocorticoid treatment. In fact, glucocorticoid treatment is one area where glutamine supplementation may really help! 

Another study with rats supports this contention, again using corticosteroid administration.(14) Although glutamine infusion had no effect on muscle protein synthesis in the rats not receiving cortisol, there was a beneficial effect in the glucocorticoid treated rats. In fact, glutamine infusion actually attenuated more than 70% of the muscle wasting caused by the cortisol injections! 

Along these lines, certain catabolic conditions (such as sepsis) may be another useful situation in which glutamine could help out. One literature review clearly concluded that "The increased intake of glutamine has resulted in lower septic morbidity in certain critically ill patient populations."(3) This means that people with certain catabolic medical conditions may live longer when taking glutamine. Keeping this in mind, we also know that AIDS can be associated with muscle wasting. Recent evidence has arisen to demonstrate that glutamine supplementation may attenuate AIDS-induced muscle wasting.(25)

Overall, these studies show that glutamine could be very helpful for muscle mass during corticosteroid treatment and certain wasting conditions. For those of you who think that your everyday training may be intense enough to simulate a catabolic condition, keep in mind that these people are dying because of their catabolism, so you're really no where near that level. 

The only time a bodybuilder even remotely approaches these kind of catabolic conditions is when improperly coming off a cycle of anabolic steroids. In this situation the user has minimal anabolic stimulus from Testosterone and a large amount of cortisol just waiting to eat that muscle (again, this is only when done improperly). In this situation, glutamine supplementation might help, but it's not a situation you should be in anyway.

The other time that glutamine supplementation may be beneficial to bodybuilders is when on a low carbohydrate diet. Glutamine can not only be converted to glucose, but may also have an anapleurotic effect.(5) In other words, it may replenish metabolic intermediates, in this case, ATP (especially important when you're lacking carbs). This is another article unto itself, so I'll leave it at that for now.

You may be asking why you???ve never heard of most of these studies, and why everything you???ve heard about glutamine was always so amazing. I can indirectly answer that by reminding you of one simple fact: no one makes money by showing that supplements don???t work. I???ll leave the rest of the thinking on this matter to you. 

Despite this, you may still be skeptical regarding the points mentioned, based on the original dogmatic theories associated with glutamine use (and how long you???ve been hit over the head with them). But then again, that???s why they???re just theories. To paraphrase Homer Simpson: "Sure it may work in theory, but then again even communism works...in theory." 

It's the mark of a great person who can devise a theory, drawing from many different ideas, and stick to it. Without this, science would be meaningless. But it's the mark of an even greater person when they can admit, without shame, that their idea is wrong. 

Sometimes theories pan out and sometimes they don???t, but we have to be able to let go of them once they're shown to be incorrect. This doesn???t mean that we shouldn???t believe new theories when they first come out; it just means that we have to be conscious about the fact that they aren???t dogma and may be wrong. 

Case in point: The theory behind glutamine was so great that I refused to believe the authors of the Candow et al. (2001) study when they told me the results in person. I was an educated bodybuilder and I wasn???t going to let some egghead scientist (who was actually more muscular than I was, and therefore far from being just an "egghead") tell me that I was wrong. Of course, I wanted to believe that glutamine was useful (even though I got nothing from it) and when someone wants to believe something you can???t convince them otherwise. 

Since then I???ve had a while to let the results sink in. I know that most believers in glutamine will also have a hard time accepting the reality of the situation, which is why I didn???t just try to convincingly show that glutamine wasn???t as great as everyone thought; I tried to overwhelmingly demonstrate it.


Bottom Line

Glutamine is good for hospital patients and rich people with money to waste. If you???re involved in resistance training and already have proper post workout nutrition, along with a moderate carb intake, then glutamine probably won???t do anything for you. In fact, none of the proposed theories dealing with glutamine supplementation have worked out in the athletic world. It???s also one of the most expensive supplements around (simply based on dosage recommendations), so it???s way too costly to use for personal experimentation ??? especially when the updated scientific literature doesn???t support the theories.


David J. Barr, CSCS, MSc. Candidate, is a Varsity Strength and Conditioning Coach at the University of Waterloo. You can contact him at dbmuscle@hotmail.com.


References

1. Antonio J, Street C.

Glutamine: a potentially useful supplement for athletes. Can J Appl Physiol 1999 Feb;24(1):1-14

2. Antonio J, Sanders MS, Kalman D, Woodgate D, Street C.

The effects of high-dose glutamine ingestion on weightlifting performance. J Strength Cond Res 2002 Feb;16(1):157-60

3. Boelens PG, Nijveldt RJ, Houdijk AP, Meijer S, van Leeuwen PA.

Glutamine alimentation in catabolic state. J Nutr 2001 Sep;131(9 Suppl):2569S-77S; discussion 2590S

4. Bowtell JL, Gelly K, Jackman ML, Patel A, Simeoni M, Rennie MJ.

Effect of oral glutamine on whole body carbohydrate storage during recovery from exhaustive exercise. J Appl Physiol 1999 Jun;86(6):1770-7

5. Bruce M, Constantin-Teodosiu D, Greenhaff PL, Boobis LH, Williams C, Bowtell JL.

Glutamine supplementation promotes anaplerosis but not oxidative energy delivery in human skeletal muscle. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2001 Apr;280(4):E669-75

6. Bush JA, Dohi K, Mastro AM, Volek J, Lynch JM, Triplett-McBride, Putukian M, Sebastianelli WJ, Newton RU, Hakkinen K, Kraemer WJ. Exercise and recovery responses of lymphokines to heavy resistance exercise J Str Cond Res 2000 14(3) 344-349

7. Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T.

Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. Eur J Appl Physiol 2001 Dec;86(2):142-9

8. Castell LM, Poortmans JR, Newsholme EA.

Does glutamine have a role in reducing infections in athletes? Eur J Appl Physiol Occup Physiol 1996;73(5):488-90

9. Castell LM, Newsholme EA.

The effects of oral glutamine supplementation on athletes after prolonged, exhaustive exercise. Nutrition 1997 Jul-Aug;13(7-8):738-42

10. Castell LM.

Can glutamine modify the apparent immunodepression observed after prolonged, exhaustive exercise? Nutrition 2002 May;18(5):371-5

11. Fang CH, James JH, Fischer JE, Hasselgren PO.

Is muscle protein turnover regulated by intracellular glutamine during sepsis? JPEN J Parenter Enteral Nutr 1995 Jul-Aug;19(4):279-85

12. Hammarqvist F, Wernerman J, von der Decken A, Vinnars E.

Alanyl-glutamine counteracts the depletion of free glutamine and the postoperative decline in protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. Ann Surg 1990 Nov;212(5):637-44

13. Hankard RG, Haymond MW, Darmaun D.

Effect of glutamine on leucine metabolism in humans. Am J Physiol 1996 Oct;271(4 Pt 1):E748-54

14. Hickson RC, Czerwinski SM, Wegrzyn LE.

Glutamine prevents downregulation of myosin heavy chain synthesis and muscle atrophy from glucocorticoids. Am J Physiol 1995 Apr;268(4 Pt 1):E730-4

15. Hiscock N, Pedersen BK.

Exercise-induced immunodepression- plasma glutamine is not the link. J Appl Physiol 2002 Sep;93(3):813-22

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## Just a guy (Dec 5, 2003)

ok cuz... im just saying its working for me... is that ok?  u find stuff.. i find stuff... some things work for some... but so far im doing ok....  but i did find some legit information... and so did u... so lets just drop this.... well actually lets not... sorry i was gettin mad cuz... just seemed like u were jumping to conclusions... just let me think it working for me even if it really doesnt (placebo) but so far so good.... im actually just doing what i should have done before i ever started... gettin skinney so i can start on the cycle... but i was fat when i started... and fatter now... but now down to 218... starting PCT tommorow... and going to eat VERY VERY clean on my upcoming cycle... which is a big one...  i want to go ahead and be skinny enough so i can keep my calories pretty high and protein pretty high after the cycle...... my aggression is gone but my balls are back!!!   i meen shit... its amazing that after a week and a half after my cycle... my heartrate is down in the 50's instead of the hundreds (if u remember) no side effects (none what so ever)  and my nuts are back... i dont know what it is... but im already fully recovered in my opinion (blood test coming up the 18th)  I just feel as if the glutamine is helping with keeping my muscle... wouldnt u try anything?  but at this point i really dont care how much muscle i lose (knock on wood)    I was stupid and started roids to early.... but now i learned more... so im gonna go ahead and try to lose as much fat as possible... even if my bench somes down to 300 from 350... i meen shit... i couldnt get pass 205 for 2 years... and im 19 and that was in my prime 2 years ago (testosteronely speaking)  so its cool.... just cant wait to start my next cycle....   800mg's of test is going to do the trick with how much weight i have lost


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## Mudge (Dec 8, 2003)

L-Glutamine and weight gain

http://medibolics.com/glut2.htm


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## Just a guy (Dec 8, 2003)

good read


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