# Squats with smith machine



## Jvette73 (Aug 3, 2003)

When I do squats with my smith machine I usually dip all the way down.  This limits the amount of weight I can handle.  I notice that if I dip only half way or so I can handle twice the weight.  Should I be doing sets of each?  Full dips with lower weight and then half dips with the increased weight?  After squats I follow with sets of quad extensions and then leg curls followed by calf raises.


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## Arnold (Aug 3, 2003)

my advice, stop doing squats on the Smith machine, it's dangerous.

do free weight barbell squats only.


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## MeanCuts (Aug 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> my advice, stop doing squats on the Smith machine, it's dangerous.
> 
> do free weight barbell squats only.



Why are squats on a smith machine more dangerous than free weight barbell squats? I always thought the smith machine was safer.


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## Jvette73 (Aug 3, 2003)

Hmm..its interesting that you mention that.  I feel much safer on the smith.  Can always just lock out if I fail.  I work out alone and have no spotter or squat cage.  Before I got the smith I would do squats off the back of my TDS mega bench with the uprights raised.  Now that was hairy and dangerous.  why is the smith dangerous for squats?


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## oaktownboy (Aug 3, 2003)

i have to respectfully disagree here Prince..the Smith machine is very safe because it has stoppers which you can adjust to use as "spotters" Second, you don't have to worry about balancing the weight.This is especially important when the weight starts to get really heavy. Oh yeah, NEVER GO ALL THE WAY DOWN ON SQUATS Jvette73! Only go halfway so your quads are parallel to the ground.Going all the way down risks back injury and can induce a wide number of other problems.


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## Arnold (Aug 3, 2003)

You guys are missing the entire point of why it's unsafe.. 

I do not feel like re-typing any answers, so I will use P-funk's answer to this from a previous thread that sums it up pretty well!



> The problem with a smith machine squat is not so much that you are taking pressure off the quads because you aren' really. The final 10-15% of the movement is still knee extension. The real problem is that you are not efficiently driving through your center of gravity.
> 
> When you are performing a real barbell squat you are squating down in such away that allows you to drive straight through your center of gravity. Think if there were a rod running straight from your spine to the ground, it would move in a diagonal fashion with your spine as you squat down. This makes the exercise more functional, increases your balance and strengthens your stabalizing muscles.
> 
> ...


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## oaktownboy (Aug 3, 2003)

bad advice yes i agree on the point that u should use a regular barbell This helps build coordination, balance, strength.HOWEVER, when going for a heavy squat and u don't have someone to spot you, i think it would be very wise to use the Smith. Think about it. The only way you are going to build muscle is if you go heavy, That's a fact. Arnold says it, all the pros say it because it's a fact. Now with a barbell you can only go so heavy. Do you want to be at the bottom of the rack, unable to drive up because of the weight? I don't think so.Also, Smith is great for people who are coming off an injury. There are many advantage to the Smith.Don't count it out.


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## Jvette73 (Aug 3, 2003)

Cant one change the center of gravity on the push by simply changing your foot position.  My smith is not angled as some are.  Its line of upward movement is vertical.  Sure I can place my feet forward and that would put the line of gravity behind me.  Move feet back and the line is more directly underneath.  I do it both ways since I feel greater stress on the back of my legs with a forward foot position and more on then front with a rearward foot position.  I like love the smith for squats.  Its almost like being on a hack machine or a sled.


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## neanderthal (Aug 3, 2003)

prince is right kids. ''free squats'' may be safer in terms of not getting crushed under the bar on a missed rep. but you are at much more of a risk to injury, especially to the KNEES!!  who wants a blown out knee? i sure as hell dont. i vote for tradtional style squats!


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## Arnold (Aug 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by oaktownboy *_
> bad advice yes i agree on the point that u should use a regular barbell This helps build coordination, balance, strength.HOWEVER, when going for a heavy squat and u don't have someone to spot you, i think it would be very wise to use the Smith.


Well my friend you're dead wrong.  If you squat with a cage you do not need a spot you can drop the barbell on the rack. And NO it's not wise to use a Smith, at least not for squats.

Doing squats on a Smith IS BAD! Period. It restricts the body from the natrual arc movement and it puts a lot of stress on both you're back and knees. Did you not read the quote from P-funk? 




> Think about it. The only way you are going to build muscle is if you go heavy, That's a fact.


Think about it? I have for 17 years! That's how long I have been squatting with FREE weights. Never once injured myself on a squat. Oh, not that it's important but I am a certified trainer.




> Arnold says it, all the pros say it because it's a fact.


What? Arnold says that you should squat on a Smith? All I ever saw him doing was free weight squats in Pumping Iron, but who knows. Are you familiar with Tom Platz or Fred Hatfield? Why don't you go read up on their advice on squats. I do not know of any pro that does not do free weight squats, but I do not really care either, most of them are pretty stupid/ignorant when it comes to bodybuilding science.




> Now with a barbell you can only go so heavy.


Yup, you can go as heavy as you're capable, not sure what you're point is.




> Do you want to be at the bottom of the rack, unable to drive up because of the weight? I don't think so.


Hell yeah, why wouldn't I? I guess that would mean I hit failure, right?




> Also, Smith is great for people who are coming off an injury. There are many advantage to the Smith.Don't count it out.


Bullshit! This would be the absolute worst thing they could do! Free weight squats are used in knee rehabilitation, not Smith squats.


Where in the hell are you getting your information? Because everything you've said here is incorrect.

I suggest that you do some reading before you post any more crap like this.


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## neanderthal (Aug 3, 2003)

rock on prince!


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## gr81 (Aug 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by oaktownboy *_
> bad advice yes i agree on the point that u should use a regular barbell This helps build coordination, balance, strength.HOWEVER, when going for a heavy squat and u don't have someone to spot you, i think it would be very wise to use the Smith. Think about it. The only way you are going to build muscle is if you go heavy, That's a fact. Arnold says it, all the pros say it because it's a fact. Now with a barbell you can only go so heavy. Do you want to be at the bottom of the rack, unable to drive up because of the weight? I don't think so.Also, Smith is great for people who are coming off an injury. There are many advantage to the Smith.Don't count it out.




HA HA, you sound like a fool. No pro ever, EVER said to use a smith machine to squat, I guarantee it, and even if they did, do not concern yourself with what the pros say, or what arnold says, what applies to them does not apply to you. Prince knows what he is talkin about and so do I, the smith machine is a cop out, it is not a real squat, it is good for nothing but an ego boost to pussies who are afraid to step under the squat rack. 

Quote:
*Oh yeah, NEVER GO ALL THE WAY DOWN ON SQUATS Jvette73! Only go halfway so your quads are parallel to the ground.Going all the way down risks back injury and can induce a wide number of other problems.* 
:end quote


Where are you getting your info from, this is BS. You need to take some time and do some reading and learn something before you post ignorant garbage like this. No one needs you perpetuating these fallacies here, you obviously don't understand the physics of a squat so go read up.


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## Mudge (Aug 3, 2003)

I have done flat benching on a smith and even that KILLS me, for the most part, stay away from that thing.


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## P-funk (Aug 3, 2003)

lol, what a funny thread......Listen to Prince....Smith machine squats are extremly foolish.  It is funny that this thred is up right now I was just in a 2 hour biomechanics class in which I gave a speech on the dangers of smith squats.

Here were some of my main points:

1) you are not driving through your bodies center of gravity creating a movement which is not functional.  This intern creates an improper motor pattern in your brain.
2) because your feet are out infront of you and you are laying back, supported by the bar, you are creating lots of distortion with respect to your center of gravity, which is now iin front of you.
3)because of the position you are in on the smith squat you are placing lots of tension on the spinal erectors as well as the neck muscles which are being forced to push up the bar which you are resting against creating a great amount of strain.
4) because your feet are infront of you and your center of gravity is displaced you are able to get down into much further knee flexion placing lost of uneccesary and dangerous shearing forces on the knees and hip.

I am really tired and have to wake up early to go to work and train my clients to do real squats....So if you are still not convinced I can add to this list later.

peace,
Patrick


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## P-funk (Aug 3, 2003)

Oaktownboy, what happened to your post were you broke down what prince said?  I was hoping to post a rebuttle.


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## oaktownboy (Aug 3, 2003)

i am rewording it right now


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## P-funk (Aug 3, 2003)

thanks


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## oaktownboy (Aug 3, 2003)

The advantages of the Smith machine are in the control, the rigid limiting mechanics that protect injured rehabbing shoulders, and the chest or triceps, says Dave Draper.
*I believe I already said this.*
 It???s a neat gadget for partial pumping movements, isolation, and improvised strictness. And it???s a great piece of equipment for guys who don???t have training partners or spotters, so you can use big weight. 
*Does this ring a bell?sounds awfully familiar*
*Ok this coming from a famous pro bodybuilder.Am I still wrong?*


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## Arnold (Aug 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by oaktownboy *_
> The advantages of the Smith machine are in the control, the rigid limiting mechanics that protect injured rehabbing shoulders, and the chest or triceps, says Dave Draper.
> *I believe I already said this.*
> It???s a neat gadget for partial pumping movements, isolation, and improvised strictness. And it???s a great piece of equipment for guys who don???t have training partners or spotters, so you can use big weight.
> ...



As far as shoulders, a Smith can cause big problems because it does not strengthen synergisitc muscles, e.g. rotator cuffs. However, it might come in handy for initial pressing rehabilitation as in bench presses, etc., but I am not an physical therpaist so I cannot say that I have any expertise in that area.

If I has to choose between a machine, Smith or any other, and free weights for ANY movement, I choose free weights hands down every time. Period.

Do not get me wrong here, I like the Smith (I have one in my home gym), it has it's uses, but squats are certainly not one of them. And a Smith is not a replacement, nor a better alternative to any free weight exercise.

As far as these pro bodybuilders, I honestly do not care what they said or say. They're fame is completely irrelevant. Plus you have used the advice of bodybuilder's from the 70's, sorry but we've come a LONG way with exercise science since then. 

You have now gone from Arnold to Dave Draper, interesting. I honestly have never read one word of what Dave Draper has written, and after reaing that quote I now know I never will.


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## gr81 (Aug 3, 2003)

Isolation movements are not what is going to put on the mass, multi joint movements are what will get the job done. Like I said, who cares what a famous BB says, they have great genetics that will get them big no matter what they do. A smith bench is different than a smith squat b/c with the squat, the movement is changed around and puts stress on different locations as Pfunk said. Why do you seem to have the notion that you can't go heavy unless you have a machine to do it on?


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## oaktownboy (Aug 3, 2003)

i never mentioned benching  you did durrrrr


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## oaktownboy (Aug 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Do not get me wrong here, I like the Smith (I have one in my home gym), it has it's uses, but squats are certainly not one of them.
> *Well then apparently the trainers at the Gold's Gym i go to are dead wrong according to this statement.*


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## Arnold (Aug 3, 2003)

If the trainers at Gold's Gym are telling you the stuff you've been posting in this thread, then yes they're DEAD WRONG! 

Tell them to join this board and we would all be happy to debate with them.


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## oaktownboy (Aug 3, 2003)

* i have told them, and they said they don't give a rat's ass what people on the internet think.*


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## aceman (Aug 3, 2003)

*back*

I used to do my squats on the smith machine and ended up eventually having to go to the chiropractor.  He explained that by using the smith machine you are not going through the full and proper motion that you do using a squat rack.  Since using the rack I have not had the problems I did before.  You will have to go down in weight, but you get greater benefits from the rack.  You will have to give up alittle pride for growth and safety.


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## gr81 (Aug 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by oaktownboy *_
> i never mentioned benching  you did durrrrr



I was deriving my comments from Prince's previous' statement. There are many PT's out there that don't know shit. Don't listen to what people tell you and accept it, do the research for yourself.


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## oaktownboy (Aug 3, 2003)

have any sites or books u recommend?


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## Arnold (Aug 3, 2003)

www.ironmagazine.com

This board is full of knowledgable people and the main site has numerous articles.

As far as what you said about the trainer's don't give a rat's ass about what people on the internet think, well is that all we are? 

Am I not a real person that has been involved in bodybuilding and fitness for 17 years? Am I not a certified trainer? Have I not trained people? Have I not competed in bodybuilding? Do I not have a formal education in diet/nutrition, biology, anatomy, physiology, etc.?

Sounds like they do not have the confidence to come to a board like this and debate with people that know what they're talking about. Or, you are just making this shit up.


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## gr81 (Aug 3, 2003)

the site in my signature

www.t-mag.com

This is my favorite site, it is all about the science of the sport. There are many other site as well


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## oaktownboy (Aug 3, 2003)

now why the fuck would i be making this shit up?


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## oaktownboy (Aug 3, 2003)

thanks gr


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## gr81 (Aug 3, 2003)




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## Arnold (Aug 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by oaktownboy *_
> now why the fuck would i be making this shit up?


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## oaktownboy (Aug 3, 2003)

hey man i'm just reflecting the ideas of the people i train with...


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## oaktownboy (Aug 3, 2003)

i was by no means directly criticizing u prince


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## oaktownboy (Aug 3, 2003)

oh i see now you got a personal vendetta against me now with that dumb people joke?


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## Arnold (Aug 3, 2003)

it's a joke, lighten up.


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## Mudge (Aug 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by oaktownboy *_
> i never mentioned benching  you did durrrrr



Arms are shorter than legs, and yet legs are somehow fine with the smith? I think not.


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## Mudge (Aug 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by oaktownboy *_
> * i have told them, and they said they don't give a rat's ass what people on the internet think.*



"I refuse to listen to any opinion but my own."

Way to go!


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## P-funk (Aug 4, 2003)

Oak, the problem with your statments is that they are taken from personal trainers that clearly have no knowledege of biomechanics and exercise science.  I hate walking into other gyms and seeing how trainers train people.  They have very little knowledge of the body, anatomy and the way in which things work.  As far as bodybulders go their advice is to be taken with a grain of salt.  They have even less knowledge of this stuff and are pumping some much crap down their throats that no matter what they do they will have great results.

I can ohonestly tell you that I have studied this stuff extensivley and am trying to help you realize why the smith squat is improper and dangerous.  Besides the fact that you are not driving through your forces and all the other things I have mentioned you must look at the pelvis.  This is probably the worst thing about the smith squat, you pelvis is always in an anterior tilt because of the nature of this exercise.  Leaving your back in a vunuralble postition for injury.   I see a lot of crazy things in the gym everyday and I don't like to see people get hurt.  We are trying to help you out, not fight with you.

peace,
Patrick


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## Arnold (Aug 4, 2003)

Here is a pic of the scene from Arnold's Pumping Iron where him and Dave Draper are squatting with free weights!


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## Arnold (Aug 4, 2003)

btw, notice how frick'n LOW they're going!


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## Mudge (Aug 4, 2003)

The Blonde Bomber, I can't believe they workout in those shoes


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## OceanDude (Aug 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jvette73 *_
> When I do squats with my smith machine I usually dip all the way down.  This limits the amount of weight I can handle.  I notice that if I dip only half way or so I can handle twice the weight.  Should I be doing sets of each?  Full dips with lower weight and then half dips with the increased weight?  After squats I follow with sets of quad extensions and then leg curls followed by calf raises.



Maybe it would be appropraite to spin off a seperate thread on Smith Machines. But I am still personally interested in the other part of Jvette's question. Namely, partial motion. I can load up a TON of weight on the hack squat machine relative to what I can do on the squat rack but I do not go all the way past parallel eitther - more like 80%-95% to parallel. But if I drop the weight by about 50% I can go well below parallel and feel that I get a much better workout with half the weight and a little higher rep count per set. With the heavy 80-95% range of motion to parallel I get tired but not burned. With the 50% of max weight at extended range of motion past parallel I am burning and so sore I need to lay in bed all morning the next day.

So - what is better  - going heavy with slightly less than full range of motion or going lighter and getting an exegerated range of motion and really feeling the burn?


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## CJB (Aug 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by P-funk *_
> Oak, the problem with your statments is that they are taken from personal trainers that clearly have no knowledege of biomechanics and exercise science...



Most personal trainers I see know 4 things:
1) Chest - work it 4 times a week
2) Biceps - work them 4 times a week
3) Leg Extensions - do them once a week and never squat
4) Drink the $5.00 shake at the juice bar after you've just spent 2 hours working your chest and biceps.


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## ZECH (Aug 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Here is a pic of the scene from Arnold's Pumping Iron where him and Dave Draper are squatting with free weights!


Holy crap!
 What happened to the bar??
And by the way OTB, at my gym you have to have no experience to be hired as a trainer! How scary is that! I probably know more than all our trainers put together and I don't know didly!


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## Arnold (Aug 4, 2003)

look at Arnold's chest just hanging there!


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## OceanDude (Aug 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Holy crap!
> What happened to the bar??
> And by the way OTB, at my gym you have to have no experience to be hired as a trainer! How scary is that! I probably know more than all our trainers put together and I don't know didly!



This was how they use to bend volkswagen transaxels in the old days - take em to Gold's Gym, load up some weight on em and have the big boys bounce em a few times on their shoulders till it came out kinda straight.

If you have his encyclopeida of modern bodybuilding book you will notice from the old pictures that all the equipment in those days was total junk - lots of cheepie Joe Weider gear and wooden benches. duct tape wrapped padding and the like.


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## MeanCuts (Aug 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by neanderthal *_
> rock on prince!



Bro can you stop kissing so much butt it's making me ill.


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## MeanCuts (Aug 4, 2003)

I agree that free weights are better than machine weights and perhaps in the long run they're safer because your balance,cordination..ect will be stronger from doing free weights but I still think because the balance is reduced by the smith machine and the fact you know you can stop at any time and don't have to rack the weight,makes the smith machine easier and safer to use.JMO but a little practice with a free weight barbell and it can be very safe too,plus you'll get the extra benefits that come from using free weights.I personally use the smith machine once a month and I like the change up from free weights.


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## Mudge (Aug 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> If you have his encyclopeida of modern bodybuilding book you will notice from the old pictures that all the equipment in those days was total junk - lots of cheepie Joe Weider gear and wooden benches. duct tape wrapped padding and the like.



Most of the entry level Olympic bars are also only rated to about 500 pounds  There are some mildly bent bars like that at my gym, several of them.


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## OceanDude (Aug 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Most of the entry level Olympic bars are also only rated to about 500 pounds  There are some mildly bent bars like that at my gym, several of them.



Did they charge you a damage deposit ?


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## Mudge (Aug 4, 2003)

Heh, nope, but it wasn't me doing that.


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## Jim1954 (Aug 4, 2003)

I bend bars like that all the time, but I usually use a rosebud, and get em cherry red first.


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## OceanDude (Aug 4, 2003)

jim1954 that may be slightly too sublte for some here...


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## Mudge (Aug 4, 2003)

Rosebud is a cutting torch tip  I am stuck with a gasless mig with a conversion kit, its good enuf for me.


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## Jvette73 (Aug 4, 2003)

Well maybe ill have to start lookin around for a squat rack as I would never discount the benifits of free squats.  Not quite sure where I would put it at this point but I could figure somethin out.  For now ill continue to use the smith.  After reading the responses from this thread I went down and practiced some form(light weight) with different foot positions for squats using the smith.  Ill say again, my bar moves up and down totally vertical.  With my foot position forward and leaning back into the bar I definatly noticed more stress on the knees, so I can see how that could increase chance of injury especially when using heavy weights.   But is there a rule that says I have to use a forward foot position?   With my feet placed further back under the bar,  my back stays straight, my head stays up, I dip straight down.  The majority of the workout is put on my legs reducing the chance of back injury.  At least thats how it feels to me.  With my back held straight since the bar is in a fixed line,  It wont allow me to cheat by leaning forward and using my back as might be possible with a free squat.  Because of this ive been able to get a good leg workout to complete failure while using less weight.  To me that means less chance of injury to both knees and back.  I like the fact that I can use the smith safely without a spotter.  Since aquiring it,  my legs have gotten stronger and bigger and look better than ever before.  Everyone is entitled to thier opinion and thats what makes good debate.  Because some people think one method is better then another, does not make the other totally useless.  A thousand people can call a dog a horse but that doesnt make it so.  Im not parroting info I got from someone else with respect to the smith machine.  Ive used it for a while now, im comfortable with it, it benifits me.  

  I noticed that someone made a comment about smith machines being for pussys who are afraid to get under a squat rack.  Comments like that do absolutly nothing to add to the debate.  In fact they hurt the reputation of the forum and may make some people think twice before participating in threads or becomming a member.  You moderators know what im talkin about.   Frankley I could care less what anyone else thinks about me,  but if people would excersize thier brain and think before they speak,  then we could all benifit greater on this forum,  and the membership #'s would likely go up. 

 Ocean Dude,  thanks for trying to revive my original question.  So far theres not been any real discussion on the original topic.  Im glad someone took real interest in the original question.


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## OceanDude (Aug 4, 2003)

Something else you can do that I have seen. It's a great physiologica tool that will remove the fear of getting caught in the down position and being unable to raise up when you have no spotter. Put a box or bench at just below or at parallel level and when you come down touch it slightly with your butt so you know you have gone the whole way. If you get in trouble you can always sit it out and call for help or drop the bar to the ground over your back by just leaning back from a seated position (embarassing but effective in a panic).


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## Mudge (Aug 4, 2003)

Those are called Box Squats


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## Jvette73 (Aug 4, 2003)

Thats what I do when doing squats off the back of my TDS megabench.  I squat down till just before my rear hits the pad.  i knew if I failed I caold just sit down and dump the weight since I dont use the clamps to hold the weights on.  I had to do it once.  I sat down and tilted the bar to one side and the weights slid off.  As soon as the weights fell off the one side the bar shifted the other way and off went the other side.  Made a hell of a racket and the family came runnin down to see what happened.  I walked away unscaved.


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## BeerHunter (Aug 4, 2003)

I had surgery on my foot in March (heel spur removed and plantar fascia released) and have been using the Smith for the last few months incase my foot decides to give out in the middle of a push. I have noticed a great difference in the way it effects my lower back(in a bad way). Should I go back to the squat rack, drop the weight to something more comfortable on my foot and do more reps?


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## P-funk (Aug 4, 2003)

yes, most defenitly go and do real squats.  By using the smith machine you are providing your body with a crutch wich is going to do nothing but create muscle imbalances, improper motor patterns and it will not alow you to properly learn how to deal with your problem wich may lead to a different injury.


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## gr81 (Aug 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jvette73 *_
> I noticed that someone made a comment about smith machines being for pussys who are afraid to get under a squat rack.  Comments like that do absolutly nothing to add to the debate.  In fact they hurt the reputation of the forum and may make some people think twice before participating in threads or becomming a member.  You moderators know what im talkin about.   Frankley I could care less what anyone else thinks about me,  but if people would excersize thier brain and think before they speak,  then we could all benifit greater on this forum,  and the membership #'s would likely go up.



Hit a little too close to home, huh? The fact is that people who don't know jack about legs assume that the smith would be safer b/c you can rack it at any time, and they envision themselves on the free squat bottoming out with too much weight on there. Why don't you just take it step by step and work your weight up and get stronger so you don't have to use a crutch like the smith machine to supposedly keep you safer. Based on your earlier comments, it sounds like you ARE afraid to get under a squat rack to me. Don't try to call me out like this and tell me I am not "exercising my brain" before I talk, How many times must we explain this concept to you before you understand it?


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## Jvette73 (Aug 4, 2003)

gr81,  I never claimed to be highely knoledgable on the subject of legs or squats. Thats why im posting questions.   Im learning from this forum and understand the responses that have been made.  I have done and do do free weight  squats even without a squat rack or spotter.  So why would I be afraid to get under a rack?  What did I say that makes you think that?  I respect yours and everyone elses right to opinion.  Just remember theres more than one way to prove a point.  Avoiding derogatory comments will gain one more respect regaurdless of thier view point.  Peace dude.


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## gr81 (Aug 4, 2003)

it wasn't necessarily a derogatory comment aimed at you, I was just using that phrase to prove a point, that is all. Its all good though, no harm no foul


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## MeanCuts (Aug 4, 2003)

Jvette there's nothing wrong with learning and you definitely shouldn't be insulted for posting a question.Just remember there is good and bad advice. Try what you think makes sense first and maybe try what doesn't make as much sense cause you never know,but be safe,if it doesn't feel right don't do it. JMO


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## Jvette73 (Aug 4, 2003)

Im gonna change my routine a bit.  Im gonna go back to doin free squats off the back of bench but ill have to keep the weights down to a point where I wont get into trouble or have to cheat to get out of it.  Then on my final set I could go to the smith for one more set to complete failure.  This way I can take advantage of the advice provided me here and still work to failure without getting into any real trouble.  As far as the smith is concerned im not loading the heck out of it.  Just maintaining good form with a reasonable amount of weight that produces failure in nor more than 8 to 10 reps.  Thanks for the the advice everyone.  Im taking note of it.


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## Jvette73 (Aug 4, 2003)

no hard feelins here gr81,  nuff said


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## maze (Sep 18, 2003)

just some notes...

I was recommended to use the barbell squat when got a right knee problem (Osteo-disecante) to avoid surgery ...

I can lift more on the regular barbell than the smith (and in the smith my base of the spine hurts / tickle sometimes) 

One friend of mine had done smith for 1yr and when he started using the barbell he didnt have any balance. Took him 1 month to correct that on the barbell.

maze


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## Dale Mabry (Sep 18, 2003)

Let me first start out by saying that I find the free squat to be far superior to the smith machine, but believe the smith has it's place.  Anyway, here are a few points.

1)If you bring your heels under the bar and throw your back into lordosis (Ass out), partial reps are fine on the smith.  Just don't go so low that your heels come off the floor.

2)If smith squats caused so much damage, there would be no hack squat machine out there since it is pretty much the same motion.  Since there IS a hack squat machine out there, I will assume that no one has been sued extensively due to injuries caused by it.

3)That picture is pretty cool, but I noticed the heels were elevated which is a biomechanical no-no since it GENERALLY causes the knee to track past the toe causing a shear force at the knee.  Not exactly the ideal situation.

That is all I got now, I have to go do legs...


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## KarlW (Dec 19, 2004)

Sorry to drag this one out, but I've got a couple questions. I've always done free barbell squats and was wondering whether Smith squats could be used as a secondary exercise. After reading this thread I am thinking no, but.......

Here's what P-Funk said:

1) you are not driving through your bodies center of gravity creating a movement which is not functional. This intern creates an improper motor pattern in your brain.

*>> This I understand. Aren't hack squats just the same i.e not functional where the COG is displaced?* 

2) because your feet are out infront of you and you are laying back, supported by the bar, you are creating lots of distortion with respect to your center of gravity, which is now iin front of you.

*>> Same as point 1?*

3)because of the position you are in on the smith squat you are placing lots of tension on the spinal erectors as well as the neck muscles which are being forced to push up the bar which you are resting against creating a great amount of strain.

*>> How does it place more tension on the spine than normal squats? Is it because you are not driving through the COG? I know the feeling, like you're pushing into you spine, but I get that somewhat from hack squats and the sled leg press as well.*

4) because your feet are infront of you and your center of gravity is displaced you are able to get down into much further knee flexion placing lost of uneccesary and dangerous shearing forces on the knees and hip.

*>> How so? in regular squats I can go all the way down to full knee flexion, should I not be doing that?*

*I only respond to this thread because I want to know why Smith squats are bad. I know they are not as good as regular squats which I have always known, but then neither are leg presses or hack squats. *
*The main part I would like described again is why they are bad for the back and knees?*


* 



*


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## ph8bringer (Dec 19, 2004)

This is a very interesting thread. I definately agree with Prince here. Also, regarding this issue, I have a question.

Is it ok to use the smith for bench press? I suffer from mild tendinitis in my left elbow and free bench irritates it. The problem will go away after a few more weeks, if I continue to avoid agrovating it. Using the smith, I can bench 200 pounds without pain to my elbow. On free bench, I can bench around 150-160 pounds, but it hurts to start the set. I havn't attempted heavier, because I took note of the pain and stopped. 

So is it ok to use the smith for bench press?


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## Duncans Donuts (Dec 19, 2004)

> Hit a little too close to home, huh?





> get stronger so you don't have to use a crutch like the smith machine to supposedly keep you safer.



This is an old thread, but that's fucking ridiculous.


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## Arnold (Dec 19, 2004)

ph8bringer said:
			
		

> This is a very interesting thread. I definately agree with Prince here. Also, regarding this issue, I have a question.
> 
> Is it ok to use the smith for bench press? I suffer from mild tendinitis in my left elbow and free bench irritates it. The problem will go away after a few more weeks, if I continue to avoid agrovating it. Using the smith, I can bench 200 pounds without pain to my elbow. On free bench, I can bench around 150-160 pounds, but it hurts to start the set. I havn't attempted heavier, because I took note of the pain and stopped.
> 
> So is it ok to use the smith for bench press?



yes, it is okay to bench with a smith, but you really need to incorporate some other type of free weight exercise to keep the synergistic muscles strong. 

have you tried dumbbell presses or flyes?


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## Golden_Boy (Dec 21, 2004)

Hey guys, I'm not sure if I even belong in this heated debate, but will share with you a quick opinion.  
Smith Machine vs Free Weight squats aside, with regards to the type of free weight rack, I'm upset that there is anything else beside a squat cage for this exercise.  They have the other design, that will not let you place the weight down if you should fail.  I've never failed myself yet in squats, but the thought of doing so frightens me because it would be horrific in itself, not to mention any injury that accompanies the trainer trying desperately to rack it from his knees.  
I've written a long letter to my own gym about this issue, in an effort to get them to replace our current rack with a cage that has pins, and I'm willing to forward it to anyone who would like to see it/add on to it to help me improve it.
The last time I used a smith machine to do squats, I injured a muscle in my neck, and almost blacked out after hanging the weight back up.  For whatever depth of knowledge I have (or lack thereof), I haven't seen any concern for the lower part of the body (besides the lack of involvement of stability muscles) when using a Smith Machine, but I will admit the first thing I find as soon as I have the weight on my shoulders and start lifting, is the amount of pressure on my upper shoulders/neck, which I don't experience in free weight lifting.


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## ChrisROCK (Dec 21, 2004)

interesting stuff.... I guess i'll be taking the advice of the more senior members here and start doing regular squats more frequently.  I always reserved them for when i had a training partner...and lately that's almost never.  Ironically enough, this comes after a night of heavy (for me) smith squats...  and this morning...i feel like i tweaked my back last night.  Nothing major, but there is some discomfort there.


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