# Mild PH for first cycle



## Logman (Dec 9, 2011)

Slowing working up the balls to do a PH cycle.  Looking for something mild as it's my first run.  Other forums say H-drol is good, but it methylated.  What's a good PH (hopefully available at Orbit) for a pill-popping virgin.

Also, does Orbit sell SERMs, and if not where do I get?  And if I do something mild can I get away with a non-SERM PCT (like AIs, natty test boosters etc).  Definitely don't want to add mass to my pecs by way of bitch tits.

Cheers.


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## PushAndPull (Dec 9, 2011)

H-drol is probably the way to go
http://www.ironmaglabs.com/product-list/halo-extreme/
CEMPRODUCTS
http://www.cemproducts.com/featured-ancillaries/clomi-70ml-35mg-ml.html


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## kevinhy (Dec 9, 2011)

H-Drol.


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## Logman (Dec 9, 2011)

Outstanding, thanks.  On the IronMagLabs site it says this is okay for PCT:

Anabolic-Matrix Rx - 2 caps daily
Ultra Male Rx - 1 cap daily
Advanced Cycle Support Rx - 2 caps daily 

But should I not risk it and just go for the Clomid?


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## gamma (Dec 9, 2011)

PushAndPull said:


> H-drol is probably the way to go
> IronMagLabs Bodybuilding Supplements & Prohormones: Halo Extreme
> CEMPRODUCTS
> http://www.cemproducts.com/featured-ancillaries/clomi-70ml-35mg-ml.html



X2


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## sofargone561 (Dec 9, 2011)

tren. 90000mg a day. finally working up the balls? not trying to bew a dick but if you are scared about a ph then PH and AAS is not for you. this is getting old.


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## MattPorter (Dec 9, 2011)

Logman said:


> Slowing working up the balls to do a PH cycle. Looking for something mild as it's my first run. Other forums say H-drol is good, but it methylated. What's a good PH (hopefully available at Orbit) for a pill-popping virgin.
> 
> Also, does Orbit sell SERMs, and if not where do I get? And if I do something mild can I get away with a non-SERM PCT (like AIs, natty test boosters etc). Definitely don't want to add mass to my pecs by way of bitch tits.
> 
> Cheers.


 
Log,

It sounds like you understand the dangers of methylated orals and are hesitant.

Your safest bet OTC would be AndroMassv3 (for mass) or AndroHardv3 (recomp). --These are NOT methylated and orally active via--lymphatic absorption and also is dosed once-a-day which keeps hpta suppression to a minimum--(far less shut down from blood work that we ran on testers)

That being said -- Hdrol is a mild anabolic compound. Just keep the duration to 4-(6) weeks tops and take proper liver precautions.

-Matt


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## Logman (Dec 9, 2011)

sofargone561 said:


> tren. 90000mg a day. finally working up the balls? not trying to bew a dick but if you are scared about a ph then PH and AAS is not for you. this is getting old.


Nut hug Ron Paul some more.  Has does it feel to literally have another man's balls in your mouth?


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## Logman (Dec 9, 2011)

MattPorter said:


> Log,
> 
> It sounds like you understand the dangers of methylated orals and are hesitant.
> 
> ...


Thanks Matt.  I've looked at Andro but had my doubts on it due to some feedback here.

What's the recommended PCT for AndroMass?


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## sofargone561 (Dec 9, 2011)

Logman said:


> Nut hug Ron Paul some more. Has does it feel to literally have another man's balls in your mouth?


 i will and i will neg you the rest of you ironmag life WELCOME


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## MattPorter (Dec 9, 2011)

Logman said:


> Thanks Matt. I've looked at Andro but had my doubts on it due to some feedback here.
> 
> What's the recommended PCT for AndroMass?


 
 The only "somewhat" negative feedback we really had was with older version AndroLean -- just didn't pack the punch people expected it to.

Mass and Hard got great reviews -- and the updated versions got even more advanced with higher potency of androgens.

PCT should always be mandatory regardless of severity of cycle, that said, I hardly feel a Serm is necessary as d-aspartic acid, and perhaps triazole or another reputable pct product.

-Matt


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## Logman (Dec 9, 2011)

sofargone561 said:


> i will and i will neg you the rest of you ironmag life WELCOME


Oh no, not a neg rep?  How will I cope?


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## sofargone561 (Dec 9, 2011)

Logman said:


> Oh no, not a neg rep? How will I cope?


 well idk. youll probably cry in the closet. your to scared to even try a PH and you wanna bad mouth Dr. Ron Paul?


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## Logman (Dec 9, 2011)

MattPorter said:


> The only "somewhat" negative feedback we really had was with older version AndroLean -- just didn't pack the punch people expected it to.
> 
> Mass and Hard got great reviews -- and the updated versions got even more advanced with higher potency of androgens.
> 
> ...


Yea, I like Formaula X and recently did a mega stack of Formaula X, Titanium, Division 1, Anabolic-Matrix Rx, Ultra Male Rx and E-Control Rx.  Hurt the wallet but it was good fun, heh.  I think that stack might work for PCT on a mild PH.


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## Logman (Dec 9, 2011)

sofargone561 said:


> well idk. youll probably cry in the closet. your to scared to even try a PH and you wanna bad mouth Dr. Ron Paul?


I think Ron Paul is the only hope for the US but I'm not about to suck his cock.  Every other politician in the US is a corporate yes-boy and all should be executed.


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## sofargone561 (Dec 9, 2011)

Logman said:


> I think Ron Paul is the only hope for the US but I'm not about to suck his cock. Every other politician in the US is a corporate yes-boy and all should be executed.


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## Digitalash (Dec 10, 2011)

Personally I say fuck going mild, if you're gonna shut yourself down and have to pct might as well make it good. My first "cycle" was p-plex and I loved it <3


as for serms, I would always use one for pct regardless of how mild the cycle. Check the link in my sig and you can find everything you need


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## ckcrown84 (Dec 10, 2011)

Depends on your goals, here are two mild products. I do not sponsor them and am just speaking from personal experience. 
Katanadrol is a cutting PH. "Katanadrol 2.0 is a high dosed version of Orastan A and is dosed perfect for great cycle stacking or stand alone."
I have used this product with some success, it is mild for sure. It also is not methylated so it won't be harmful to your liver. The compound is  5a-androstanol[2,3]furazan-17b-tetrahydropyranol

Another good one is Helladrol. I have used this and made great strength gains. 
4-chloro-17a-Methyl-Androsta-1, 4-diene-3,17-diol - 
It is methylated. But, it supposedly does not aromatize and has very very low risk of Gyno. Unlike Superdrol.

If you go with a Methyl compound I would get some liver support supplement. 

Good luck brotha


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## PappyMason (Dec 10, 2011)

h drol seems better for strength gains than weight. P-mag (very similar chemical compound) adds more weight with a little less strength tho. both are solid starting ph's tho


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## Logman (Dec 10, 2011)

Cheers, fellas.  I'm definitely feeling more confident about the whole deal.  Looks like Welcome to CEMproducts.com! ship international and have a few SERMs.  I heard Nolvadex is preferable to Clomid and I assume this is it: Nolva-Tamoxifen 50mL 20mg/mL

Anyone got any thoughts on Clomid vs Nolvadex?


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## sofargone561 (Dec 10, 2011)

Digitalash said:


> Personally I say fuck going mild, if you're gonna shut yourself down and have to pct might as well make it good. My first "cycle" was p-plex and I loved it <3
> 
> 
> as for serms, I would always use one for pct regardless of how mild the cycle. Check the link in my sig and you can find everything you need


 This. i was going to start off with hdol cycle then i went to mdol then i did a shit load of research and not im on my first cycle. of test E kicked it off with the first 4 weeks on SDMZ 2 caps a day and ending with DBOL 50mg/ED  also 50mg proviron/ED


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## ~RaZr~ (Dec 10, 2011)

H-Drol would be a good beginner PH cycle. If you could, Torem would be a good choice in PCT.


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## Logman (Dec 10, 2011)

I also heard Torem was a good PCT.....


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## MattPorter (Dec 12, 2011)

Logman said:


> I also heard Torem was a good PCT.....



If you must insist on shutting yourself down hard with a methyl, then please go with Torm. 

I would use testosterone conversion factor-1 (dAA) w/topical sustain alpha pct to keep your rod hard for your lady or internet screen.

-Matt


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## oufinny (Dec 12, 2011)

MattPorter said:


> If you must insist on shutting yourself down hard with a methyl, then please go with Torm.
> 
> I would use testosterone conversion factor-1 (dAA) w/topical sustain alpha pct to keep your rod hard for your lady or internet screen.
> 
> -Matt



When I factor in all the extra costs of using a methyl, AndroHard is not expensive at all and you can run it for 8 weeks.  I normally don't pimp non-AAS products but PP really outdid itself with this release of AH.  It is high on my list of things I want to try.


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## Logman (Dec 12, 2011)

To be honest I'm probably going to do AndroMass and then do their Testosterone Recovery Stack.  Even though H-drol is mild I definitely care for my nutz more than my muscles.  I'm about to hit 40 so I could do with a little help but I'm not looking to be the next Arnie.  If AndroMass could help me puton 10lbs of lean gains in the 8 week period that's all I really want.


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## MattPorter (Dec 14, 2011)

Logman said:


> To be honest I'm probably going to do AndroMass and then do their Testosterone Recovery Stack.  Even though H-drol is mild I definitely care for my nutz more than my muscles.  I'm about to hit 40 so I could do with a little help but I'm not looking to be the next Arnie.  If AndroMass could help me puton 10lbs of lean gains in the 8 week period that's all I really want.



LOg!

10lbs ----Hell yes, just put food in your mouth and move some heavy objects and take AndroMass and I will say 10lbs is an EASY goal.

Easier pct --->more gains retained--->cycle again to build "on top" of the previous gains---rinse and repeat.

SO basically you move 2 steps forward and maybe a "half step" back.....

Opposed to using something that will inflate you with water for 2-4 weeks, shut your test down, and leave you deflated post cycle and worse off than before.....

ehhh

-Matt


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## Logman (Dec 14, 2011)

Sounds good to me.


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## Bonesaw (Dec 14, 2011)

What ever you do make a log of it on here, im kinda in the same boat as you with picking that first cycle.


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## Logman (Dec 15, 2011)

Won't be until the spring anyhow as have a holiday in January and I plan on doing one more test booster super stack before this.  Hopefully by then they'll be a few logs on the new Andro recipes.  Also have a bunch of niggling injuries that I want to get beyond and finally see the light at the end of the tunnel on.  Hitting 40 does suck, heh.


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## MattPorter (Dec 15, 2011)

Logman said:


> Won't be until the spring anyhow as have a holiday in January and I plan on doing one more test booster super stack before this.  Hopefully by then they'll be a few logs on the new Andro recipes.  Also have a bunch of niggling injuries that I want to get beyond and finally see the light at the end of the tunnel on.  Hitting 40 does suck, heh.



There will be alot more logs for sure. In fact, I am having a Bodybuilding competitor rely entirely on JUST ANDRO for his contest preparation....

He used aas in past --tren,winny,test (all dosed mildly)

He gained 14lbs off AndroBulk (beta tester) and now believes in Mass/Hard/Lean for his contest prep. He will be fully sponsored so this will save him money that would have been spent on black market aas.

Should be very convincing if everything pans out!

-Matt


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## ryansm (Dec 15, 2011)

Logman said:


> To be honest I'm probably going to do AndroMass and then do their Testosterone Recovery Stack.  Even though H-drol is mild I definitely care for my nutz more than my muscles.  I'm about to hit 40 so I could do with a little help but I'm not looking to be the next Arnie.  If AndroMass could help me puton 10lbs of lean gains in the 8 week period that's all I really want.



H-drol gets touted as a mild oral but it isn't. I had similar bloods from it as I did on SD and M1T along with other issues.


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## patternsco (Dec 18, 2011)

i also was considering my first cycle and this is wat was told to me too, plus the benefits of a mild dose wont be worth it, so i was advised?



Digitalash said:


> Personally I say fuck going mild, if you're gonna shut yourself down and have to pct might as well make it good. My first "cycle" was p-plex and I loved it <3


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## BP2000 (Dec 18, 2011)

why iz you in Japan?  Military?


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## Logman (Dec 19, 2011)

Nah, just ended up here after some travels.


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## Logman (Dec 19, 2011)

Nah, just ended up here after some travels.


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## MattPorter (Dec 19, 2011)

Logman said:


> Nah, just ended up here after some travels.



So what is the final verdict? What will be your cycle of choice?

-Matt


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## Logman (Dec 19, 2011)

I did the AndroStat thing and it says:

"Your estimated total testosterone level is - 461ng/dL"

And looking at the chart it makes out that I just suck and Andro is no good to see.  Weird teh test didn't ask about sex drive and stuff as I'm sure that's an indicator of test levels.  Maybe I'll keep it natural for another year or so.  I just did a massive cut from 81kg to 71kg to try and get some definition and I wasn't even that fat.  Even then I couldn't lose the thin layer of fat over my abs totally.  Ah well, sucks to have shit genetics.


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## MattPorter (Dec 20, 2011)

Logman said:


> I did the AndroStat thing and it says:
> 
> "Your estimated total testosterone level is - 461ng/dL"
> 
> And looking at the chart it makes out that I just suck and Andro is no good to see.  Weird teh test didn't ask about sex drive and stuff as I'm sure that's an indicator of test levels.  Maybe I'll keep it natural for another year or so.  I just did a massive cut from 81kg to 71kg to try and get some definition and I wasn't even that fat.  Even then I couldn't lose the thin layer of fat over my abs totally.  Ah well, sucks to have shit genetics.



Will be hard to lose stubborn fat if your hormones arent superficially high.

You would fare well with AndroHArd v3 and AndroLean when it gets released.

Stay positive! If you wanted to run a mass gaining cycle -- then keep trying to get lean before starting the cycle as you will super sensitive in a lean state before introducing hormones.

-Matt


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## Logman (Dec 20, 2011)

Aye, well, I'm on a bulk phase right now after that massive cut.  But I'm going a lot slower this time around.  My last few bulks didn't go well and ended up putting on too much too soon.  Doing better this time though.  Going to do a few natty t-booster stacks next year and may hit Andro for a cut before the summer.


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## Logman (Dec 22, 2011)

So why does Andro need a PCT if it doesn't shit down test production in the nutsack?


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## ~RaZr~ (Dec 22, 2011)

I believe the general consensus is that whenever you mess with your natural testosterone production with exogenous hormones, you need some sort of way to speed up the recovery process. 

I think the only time you don't need some sort of PCT is when you take natural products like trib.


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## Logman (Dec 22, 2011)

Yea, but on the Andro site they tout the need to just use their TRS stack yet their reps say differing things from yes you need a serm to no, just buy our TRS stack for $10,000.

If your nutz continue to make test during the cycle as is claimed by Andro I don't see a scientific reason to artificially restart the process with a serm.  Maybe it just puts a dampener on test production while not actually cutting it to zero?  If that's true I think I'd like to see real data on how much natural test production is affected by these DHEA compounds.  If I don't have to take a serm I don't want to put my liver through it.


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## MattPorter (Dec 23, 2011)

Logman said:


> Yea, but on the Andro site they tout the need to just use their TRS stack yet their reps say differing things from yes you need a serm to no, just buy our TRS stack for $10,000.
> 
> If your nutz continue to make test during the cycle as is claimed by Andro I don't see a scientific reason to artificially restart the process with a serm.  Maybe it just puts a dampener on test production while not actually cutting it to zero?  If that's true I think I'd like to see real data on how much natural test production is affected by these DHEA compounds.  If I don't have to take a serm I don't want to put my liver through it.



Guys--- For pete sake.....ALL INFO and QUESTIONS you have are on our HOME SITE!!!

Don't be lazy ---the information is there.

You want the data to prove that the suppression is not so harsh? You can DOWNLOAD the full case report on each beta tester. Here is one of them --Kalen D. Case Report

Also --- it WILL MILDLY shut you down---but NOT FULLY, so it would be wise to run some testosterone stimulating products for PCT --not something I would chance regardless of less suppression.

-Matt


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## Logman (Dec 24, 2011)

Not being lazy, just discussing the product.  Even if the info is there on the site, doesn't mean I can find it.  Also I find the lack of concensus of PCT from the site and teh reps quite concerning.  The site seems to promote the TRS as the only necessary PCT.  You said it's wise to run something but didn't state if that was boosters or serms.


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## ryansm (Dec 24, 2011)

Logman said:


> Yea, but on the Andro site they tout the need to just use their TRS stack yet their reps say differing things from yes you need a serm to no, just buy our TRS stack for $10,000.
> 
> If your nutz continue to make test during the cycle as is claimed by Andro I don't see a scientific reason to artificially restart the process with a serm.  Maybe it just puts a dampener on test production while not actually cutting it to zero?  If that's true I think I'd like to see real data on how much natural test production is affected by these DHEA compounds.  If I don't have to take a serm I don't want to put my liver through it.



Reps do have their own opinion I always use a SERM, use the TRS with a lower dose of SERM like Torem if you have concerns


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## ryansm (Dec 24, 2011)

Logman said:


> Not being lazy, just discussing the product.  Even if the info is there on the site, doesn't mean I can find it.  Also I find the lack of concensus of PCT from the site and teh reps quite concerning.  The site seems to promote the TRS as the only necessary PCT.  You said it's wise to run something but didn't state if that was boosters or serms.



consensus is is there we all use the TRS, I just add in a low dose SERM. The info easy easy to find a lot of work was put into it and the site is quite clear.


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## Logman (Dec 24, 2011)

Okay, understood.  Guess I'll just bite the bullet and not let the "Not for Human Consumption" label put me off.  Main reason for wanting to avoid it is because I'd have to try and get it shipped in and i have no idea on Japan's laws about this. I found this site selling Nolva that do international shipping so I'll get that first and if all good I'll get some Andro if I see a good promo.  8 weeks of AM and 8 weeks of AH at 3 caps would be the stack I want but that's a cool $530. :|


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## MattPorter (Dec 26, 2011)

^^

Have you tried prohormonewarehouse dot com? They are a wholesaler of ours and have great prices....

-Matt


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## Logman (Dec 26, 2011)

Thanks, that looks good, and international shipping too.  But I really need to see if I can receive the serm first before buying I guess.  I hope there's another 40% sale in the near future.

Hey, I read on PHF that everyone pre-loads cycles with Hawthorn Berry.  But I see IMs Advanced Cycle Support contains it so should I just pre-load with that or take it while on teh cycle?  Also intending on doing an H-Drol cycle after the AM/AH if all goes well and as that is a methyl I'm interested in preserving my liver.  The PP Liver Juice looks cheap too so interested in those two products for liver support on AM/AH and Halo Extreme.

Oh yea, also need recs on a decent Taurine product. 

Thanks for all the advice so far fellas.


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## HeavyMIGGY (Dec 27, 2011)

H-drol and torem


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## banker23 (Dec 27, 2011)

Logman said:


> So why does Andro need a PCT if it doesn't shit down test production in the nutsack?


 
depends on the length of cycle...6 weeks is well established to befine with just the OTC Test recovery stack. I did 7 weeks of AM and AH laddered (4 weeks each with one week overlap) and I recovered fine and experienced no shrinkage. 

Now that I've done an AAS cycle I would like to use my new knowledge to lengthen an Andro cycle beyond the recommended 6 weeks. 10 weeks AM/AH using HCG on cycle and a true PCT. I will also research increasing dosage at 5 weeks and 8 weeks if androseries result in myostatin stalls in gains like test. AM is supposed to be the "test base" of the lineup so I am going to give it a chance and use it the same way I would use test and see what happens.

The only thing I can't really match in the andro series is the "dbol" kicker so I will have to hold off on making direct comparisons until week 5 or so.


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## banker23 (Dec 27, 2011)

ryansm said:


> Reps do have their own opinion I always use a SERM, use the TRS with a lower dose of SERM like Torem if you have concerns


 
I would always use a SERM now but part of that is because we are comfortable sourcing and receiving them...running HCG and pharma stuff is still a little on the "grey" side though (while the PP stuff on its own is completely above board hopefully for a long long time). 

I know I wasn't ready for grey market stuff on my first go-round so as long as OP is doing the short recommended cycle (4-6 weeks) he should do great. If he's already comfortable with research and pharma route then by all means lengthen a cycle and use a real PCT and possibly AI if running AB.


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## banker23 (Dec 27, 2011)

sofargone561 said:


> tren. 90000mg a day. finally working up the balls? not trying to bew a dick but if you are scared about a ph then PH and AAS is not for you. this is getting old.


 
SFG I think a little fear is a healthy thing with these products. How many times do we see posts in here from kids who are popping stuff with no thought for long term effects? Way too often, right ?(except maybe it's a little fun to rag on them).

I am 38; was 37 when I decided to use my first PH and was all excited about getting started, but then I started reading about elvated liver values and all kinds of medical stuff that sounded a little too serious for a quick decision. I hunted around until I found something that had low sides and zero liver toxicity: Andro series from PP.

I did a great cycle and learned a ton of stuff while I was doing it from their site forum, and made the decision to join the dark side a few months later. I never would have gained that confidence and knowlege if I had not made the jump last year and I needed a "safe" option to feel good about making that initial first step.

This isn't fish oil or vitamins we're talking about here. Fear is a good thing when it comes to PH or AAS.


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## Logman (Dec 27, 2011)

Cheers.  There's a lot of shit to get your head around but I'm pretty much there and comfortable with it now.  I'm going to source some Nolva as PCT as it looks the most tried and tested.  Torem looks pretty new?  Then I'll run the AM/AH stack and then if all goes well I'll do an H-Drol run and then reassess.

Think I'm good for most of the supps to run.  I even heard of some gyno issues on h-drol so thinking an AI like Triazole ran on cycle could help prevent that.  And then there's teh standard Cycle Support stuff, and a DAA based booster during PCT.  How hard can it be.


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## banker23 (Dec 27, 2011)

Logman said:


> Cheers. There's a lot of shit to get your head around but I'm pretty much there and comfortable with it now. I'm going to source some Nolva as PCT as it looks the most tried and tested. Torem looks pretty new? Then I'll run the AM/AH stack and then if all goes well I'll do an H-Drol run and then reassess.
> 
> Think I'm good for most of the supps to run. I even heard of some gyno issues on h-drol so thinking an AI like Triazole ran on cycle could help prevent that. And then there's teh standard Cycle Support stuff, and a DAA based booster during PCT. How hard can it be.


 
torem is newer but no reason not to go with it. reviews are among the best for PCT but if you want tried and true go with clomid versus nolva. Nolva's more of an AI than a PCT in my opinion. I see people using it to address gyno not as an actual full fledged PCT. Clomid's the best established PCT but Torem is rapidly being recognized for its effectiveness (possible superiority?) as well.

You can find research that supports nolva both on cycle and PCT but most of the vets that I have grown to know over the last year will say stick with Clomid (or torem if they've made the jump). Not a bad idea to have a few different AI's and prolactin drugs on hand before starting anything just in case though.

Shouldn't need any of these things at all though if you're just testing the water with a short androseries cycle. Just get the TRS and try a 4 week cycle to see how it sits with you. Like I said, I did seven weeks and everything went fantastic. I started logging it on the PP website after about the second week if you want to look at it. PM me and I'll send you a link.


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## ryansm (Dec 28, 2011)

Logman said:


> Thanks, that looks good, and international shipping too.  But I really need to see if I can receive the serm first before buying I guess.  I hope there's another 40% sale in the near future.
> 
> Hey, I read on PHF that everyone pre-loads cycles with Hawthorn Berry.  But I see IMs Advanced Cycle Support contains it so should I just pre-load with that or take it while on teh cycle?  Also intending on doing an H-Drol cycle after the AM/AH if all goes well and as that is a methyl I'm interested in preserving my liver.  The PP Liver Juice looks cheap too so interested in those two products for liver support on AM/AH and Halo Extreme.
> 
> ...



If you are running Hdrol as well the yes you will need support supps. What you have been reading is fine, pre-load with the advanced cycle support and continue it on cycle. If you are not running the Hdrol with AM/AH then there is no need for support supps.


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## |Z| (Dec 28, 2011)

My vote is also for H-Drol. I did it 50/75/75/75/75 and bumped it up to around 125 towads the end... 75 was the sweet spot for me, 100 and over was too much, back pumps were hell.

Anyway, it was a great cycle, would and will run it again soon. Prob going to stack with 11-oxo for a lean summer cycle!


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## Logman (Dec 28, 2011)

Thanks guys I think I'm decided on the first few cycles.  I'll do an AM/AH cycle and then H-Drol after that.  If all good maybe move onto Epivar for the third.


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