# "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +



## John H. (Apr 12, 2004)

The movie by Mel Gibson "The Passion of the Christ" I understand is approaching the 500 million dollar mark in sales.

My question: since it cost 30 million to make, what is Mel Gibson planning to do with the profit? Will he be Christ-like? He says he believes in every word of the Bible and in Christ. Will he then help those who are less fortunate in this country and around the world with the profits? Will he build more churches as he has done (he has built one that cost 5 million to build before he made this film)? Or will he be more down-to-earth and Christ-like - do as Christ said to do?

John H.


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## I Are Baboon (Apr 12, 2004)

I think he should go on a hooker, drug, and booze binge for about three years.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 12, 2004)

I agree with IAB.  


While I am not remotely religious, I think it is great that he has made all that money off of this movie considering movie execs wouldn't touch it.  I would rather see him get it than a production company.


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## nikegurl (Apr 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by I Are Baboon *_
> I think he should go on a hooker, drug, and booze binge for about three years.



maybe 4


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## Var (Apr 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by I Are Baboon *_
> I think he should go on a hooker, drug, and booze binge for about three years.



Classic!   I think the right thing would be for him to to give me enough $ to go on a hooker, drug, and booze binge.


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## Stickboy (Apr 12, 2004)

I'm sure he'll give 10% (or more) to the church, but whatever else he does with it simply isn't anyone's buisness.

If you really want to know, John H. perhaps you should ask him.


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## Rocco32 (Apr 12, 2004)

Yeah, I really don't think it's any of your business what he does with his money John H. I think you need to focus in on your life and stop wondering if everyone else is living right.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 12, 2004)

The real question you should be asking is "What would YOU do if it was your 500 mil?"

I'm willing to bet he gives at least 10%.  Kinda makes all the idiots that said he should have given the 25 mil to charity to begin with..real math wizards. lol


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## John H. (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Stickboy *_
> I'm sure he'll give 10% (or more) to the church, but whatever else he does with it simply isn't anyone's buisness.
> 
> If you really want to know, John H. perhaps you should ask him.


 Hi Stickboy. I watched a number of the interviews he did before the movie came out (there were many and on a number of stations) and was so "popular". He stated he knows of the "other side" (the left) and he felt there was nothing there for him or anyone else since he had done everything and experienced just about everything there so he went to the right. He said HE believes in the entire Bible and that you either believe in it ALL or not at all. He said he believed in it and Christ also. 

This is all fine - as long as he LIVES by what he says and would want others to do also as he has said. Thus my questions. 

IF he DOES believe and follows and practices what he preaches would it not follow then that he would also DO as Christ actually SAID to do? It seems to me that a man that HAS vast wealth already (before he made this movie and the money associated with it) that he would want to spread the wealth he made from this movie to those who are less fortunate - as Christ said to do - is he now following the word of Christ in HIS life (Mel Gibson's own life) and DOING as Christ said to do?

I have not heard anything as to how he will utilize the additional wealth he is making from this film. If Mel Gibson IS living his life as Christ said to do... Or is he just making more money for himself? I am not trying to be "sour grapes" here, just wondering IF he REALLY IS living and doing as he professes? 

I hope he is not using the death of Christ to enrich himself as the expense and utilizing people's fears and lack of answers to life's most important questions... 

I wonder.

He spent 5 million on a church that is HIS - his own church - which he says he is in charge of and/or the head of. There was a news report in Fox News (if I remember correctly it was on the internet also) that this church he built (it was under construction at the time of the interviews before the movie came out) he wants no one to know where it is and those that do he does not want anyone to tell others where it is... Seems strange to me. 

Before Mel Gibson built his own church for 5 million, he gave roughly 5 million to a Catholic Church (I believe it was reported in two separate donation amounts totalling about 5 million). 

He has said he wants to have his church follow the old methods of the old Roman Catholic Church. Apparently the Catholic Church did not agree with him on this so that is apparently when he built his own church. 

Just wondering about all this.... 

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by rock4832 *_
> Yeah, I really don't think it's any of your business what he does with his money John H. I think you need to focus in on your life and stop wondering if everyone else is living right.



Hi Rock. Normally I do feel it is a person's private business - UNLESS - that person is TELLING others how to live their lives which is what Mel Gibson is doing. I saw his interviews and that is why I was responding so. If he can tell others how to live their lives and he SAYS he is living his a certain way then I feel it is fine for someone to follow up on what he is saying and actually doing. 

As for my life, believe me I focus on it completely. I do have a right to question someone else who sets himself up to question how others live their lives. Mel Gibson has done this. I am not trying to run him down for any reason necessarily, he will do that automatically based on what he actually does, says, and follows through on - or not. 

He actions should speak louder then his words I feel. To be credible he should take that advice he says others should take equally. 

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> The real question you should be asking is "What would YOU do if it was your 500 mil?"
> 
> I'm willing to bet he gives at least 10%.  Kinda makes all the idiots that said he should have given the 25 mil to charity to begin with..real math wizards. lol



Hi Bustinout. What would I do with the money - I can tell you HONESTLY that if I said as Mel Gibson has said I would be giving ALL of that money I made on the film to those less fortunate - HONESLTY deserving so. Every penny above the actual costs. Yes, I would - IF I was being honest and very sincere and following what Christ said to do as Mel Gibson has said he is doing. The 10% figure is outrageous in my mind. That is a very small amount especially when you think about the subject of the movie he has made. Its message, etc. 

Take Care, John H.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 13, 2004)

He is telling a story in his movie, nothing more.  Do you think he was telling everyone to slaughter the British in Braveheart.

If you have a link to an article where he says everyone should give their money to the poor, I would love to see it.

Also, not all of the poor are victims of an unfortunate event, a large number of them are just lazy.  Bible or not, this behavior should not be rewarded.  When I first moved to Philly, I used to give any bum who asked a dollar.  I don't do that anymore since there are people working their asses off at 3 jobs just scraping by and these wanderers are just asking for handouts.  On occasion I will give them money if they can tell me a good story, however.


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## John H. (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Var *_
> Classic!   I think the right thing would be for him to to give me enough $ to go on a hooker, drug, and booze binge.



Hi Var. Apparently in Mel Gibson's former life (living "left") he did just about everything and tried just about everything. He said he was addicted and when asked to what he said "you name it"... So I guess a person can say based on his statements he knows about the "left"? 

I was actually concerned about him and his mental state his sincereity, etc. when I saw the various interviews he made on various programs. I watched him closely and listened to him closely and his responses and actions. I wondered then if he might not have some residual problems associated with his life as he had "lived" it and/or experienced it.  He seemed to have some problems he was not addressing and that something was missing from his life. I was just wondering. 

Take Care, John H.


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## Pepper (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> He is telling a story in his movie, nothing more.  Do you think he was telling everyone to slaughter the British in Braveheart.
> 
> If you have a link to an article where he says everyone should give their money to the poor, I would love to see it.



Post of the Day.


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## Pepper (Apr 13, 2004)

What's the over/under on "Number of Posts before John H starts talking about gays?"


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## John H. (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> He is telling a story in his movie, nothing more.  Do you think he was telling everyone to slaughter the British in Braveheart.
> 
> If you have a link to an article where he says everyone should give their money to the poor, I would love to see it.



Hi Dale. There is a LOT more to this "...telling a story in his movie..." In order to understand where I am coming from and why I question you would have had to seen the interviews before the moving came out that he did - several - and the reporting that was done associated with him and his movie. It is critical that you see these. Mel Gibson was making the statements with regard to living life and how someone should do that and how he lives his - past and present... Mel Gibson said he believes in every word of the Bible and believes in Christ - thus my questioning what he is going to do with the money he has made on this portion of Christ's life and what Christ said for others to do in their lives. Is he now following what he (Mel Gibson) has said he is doing in HIS life?  See what I am saying?

There was a lot of PRE-movie interviewing and a lot said by Mel Gibson about himself and the movie he made. I have seen nothing subsequent to the showing of his movie and what will happen to the money made from it. 

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> He is telling a story in his movie, nothing more.  Do you think he was telling everyone to slaughter the British in Braveheart.
> 
> If you have a link to an article where he says everyone should give their money to the poor, I would love to see it.
> ...



Hi Dale. I am speaking about  those that are HONESTLY deserving. Sure each person has an obligation to honestly DO for themselves. I am speaking from the point of view of what Christ said to DO for those that are less fortunate honestly so. Those that are lazy and will not do for themselve do not deserve anymore than what they put into their own efforts. 

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> What's the over/under on "Number of Posts before John H starts talking about gays?"



Pepper. How do you arrive at this statement? Where have I talked about "Gays" in this thread? I was speaking about Mel Gibson and the movie he made about the last twelve hours of Christ's life. I was speaking about how Mel Gibson has stated himself how he has lived his life and how others should and the reasons he made the movie based on interviews he made in the media. 

John H.


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## Pepper (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> Pepper. How do you arrive at this statement? Where have I talked about "Gays" in this thread? I was speaking about Mel Gibson and the movie he made about the last twelve hours of Christ's life. I was speaking about how Mel Gibson has stated himself how he has lived his life and how others should and the reasons he made the movie based on interviews he made in the media.
> 
> John H.




It was a joke, John, just a joke.


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## Rocco32 (Apr 13, 2004)

John, I think Mel did an amazing thing with this movie and I do believe he is a follower of Christ. He does not need to do anything with his money to convince me of this. But then again this is not between me and Mel but between God and Mel. I have no business judging his life nor do you.

And very respectfully, I have very little faith that you understand the Christian faith from the posts I've read from you. I do not think you understand that Bible and only pick out scriptures to prove some mutated point YOU want to prove.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> What's the over/under on "Number of Posts before John H starts talking about gays?"



This is quite funny.


Anyway John, if the church really did follow the "Law of Christ", a large portion of the collection plate should go to the needy.  I have seen hundreds of Churches and most of these buildings are incredible and I bet incredibly expensive, some in the millions.  Who says you need an immaculate building to pray in?  I am not religious, but I would dare say that most of the people currently going to Church and the clergy involved missed his point as well.


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## nikegurl (Apr 13, 2004)

anyone know what percentage of the Vatican's wealth (think art, gold etc) is going to the poor this year?

didn't think so.  

and before anyone freaks out....i'm not starting a "bash Catholicism" thread.  i'm just making the point that if the church itself holds onto wealth that doesn't go directly to the poor and needy....who are we to want percentages from Mel?


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## craig777 (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> The movie by Mel Gibson "The Passion of the Christ" I understand is approaching the 500 million dollar mark in sales.
> 
> My question: since it cost 30 million to make, what is Mel Gibson planning to do with the profit? Will he be Christ-like? He says he believes in every word of the Bible and in Christ. Will he then help those who are less fortunate in this country and around the world with the profits? Will he build more churches as he has done (he has built one that cost 5 million to build before he made this film)? Or will he be more down-to-earth and Christ-like - do as Christ said to do?
> ...




John,

The Bible was written by men, so we have no idea what Christ said to do. Christ never said anything about what to do, and he never did say anything. The Bible was written by men, and Jesus never said anything, and never did. How can Mel Gibson do as Christ said when he never said anything, because the Bible was written by men, and not by Jesus I might add.

Craig


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## Arnold (Apr 13, 2004)

Maybe Mel could invest the money in better writers so if he produces a sequel people will not fall asleep watching it. 

Yes, I did see the movie, it was awful.


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## Rocco32 (Apr 13, 2004)

Out of everyone I know that has seen the movie, your the first for me to hear say that. Bound to happen though, can't make something EVERYONE will like.


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## Arnold (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by rock4832 *_
> Out of everyone I know that has seen the movie, your the first for me to hear say that. Bound to happen though, can't make something EVERYONE will like.



not sure who you're talking to, but I have spoken with several people that share my opinion, even some Christians. 

I do think that it COULD have been a good movie had the first half or even 3/4 been focused on Christ and his life, but watching him get beaten to death for 1.5 hours is not my idea of a good movie.


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## Rocco32 (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> not sure who you're talking to, but I have spoken with several people that share my opinion, even some Christians.
> 
> I do think that it COULD have been a good movie had the first half or even 3/4 been focused on Christ and his life, but watching him get beaten to death for 1.5 hours is not my idea of a good movie.


I thought it was a good movie but I completely agree with you on the focusing on his life more. Those were the moments that really hit me and established him as a real person. Then to cut from those personal scenes back to the torture made it even harder to watch.


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## Stickboy (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> Before Mel Gibson built his own church for 5 million, he gave roughly 5 million to a Catholic Church (I believe it was reported in two separate donation amounts totalling about 5 million).
> 
> He has said he wants to have his church follow the old methods of the old Roman Catholic Church. Apparently the Catholic Church did not agree with him on this so that is apparently when he built his own church.
> ...



John H.,

Couple of things here.  Gibson is a Catholic that doesn't follow the Vatican II decrees.  Many that I know in the church prefer the older ways.  (BTW, Read a book called 'AA-1025' if you need more info on why some catholics are wary about Vatican II.).

No, catholics can choose to take mass in the old ways.  Many parishes don't, but the ones that do are not disowned by the Vatican.  They are still very much a part of the church.

He didn't build his OWN church.  He gave money to the church to have one built, and that just happens to be the one he goes too.

The church only requires people give 10% of what they make.  Not many do that, in actuality.  If he gives 10%, then there it is.

I still think it no bodies business what he does with his money.


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## tucker01 (Apr 13, 2004)

*Re: Re: "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +*



> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> John,
> 
> The Bible was written by men, so we have no idea what Christ said to do. Christ never said anything about what to do, and he never did say anything. The Bible was written by men, and Jesus never said anything, and never did. How can Mel Gibson do as Christ said when he never said anything, because the Bible was written by men, and not by Jesus I might add.
> ...


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## John H. (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> It was a joke, John, just a joke.



Hi Pepper. OK, I did not know that. I was not sure what you meant. Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by rock4832 *_
> John, I think Mel did an amazing thing with this movie and I do believe he is a follower of Christ. He does not need to do anything with his money to convince me of this. But then again this is not between me and Mel but between God and Mel. I have no business judging his life nor do you.
> 
> And very respectfully, I have very little faith that you understand the Christian faith from the posts I've read from you. I do not think you understand that Bible and only pick out scriptures to prove some mutated point YOU want to prove.



Hi Rock. He certainly got people's attention by making this movie especially with the graphic nature which needed to be shown if it was truthful - but NOT TO CHILDREN in my opinion - and I understand many took their CHILDREN to this movie and made them view it - that is VERY WRONG in my book.

Normally I would agree with you EXCEPT it is HE who is SAYING how we should live our lives in his interviews and statements so I feel he gives me then the opening to ask then if he is following what Christ was supposed to have said and how to live your (meaning anyone's) life and IF Mel is distributing his wealth to those in HONEST need. Certainly I do not think you could b. s. Christ if you made 500 million + on one movie about HIM and then kept it all for yourself - that would be counter to what Christ is supposed to have wanted... 

Yes, it certainly IS between Mel and God - but I see all the time where "christians" tell others how they must live their lives and judge even though the Bible they say they follow says to do otherwise.... I am NOT trying to start anything here just saying how it is... 

I know I have a very good crasp of the "Christian faith" - I've seen and learned a lot from personal experience and certainly can speak to the subject firsthand and from history...

It is NOT me who is "picking from scriptures" to suit my needs. 

Take Care, John H.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> not sure who you're talking to, but I have spoken with several people that share my opinion, even some Christians.
> 
> I do think that it COULD have been a good movie had the first half or even 3/4 been focused on Christ and his life, but watching him get beaten to death for 1.5 hours is not my idea of a good movie.



agreed. 
 what is funny is to listen to self - confessed religious people proudly proclaim that " at least they got the part about Jesus being beaten correct!"  .. !! how the hell would they know for how long the guy was beaten?  were they there?  it's wishful thinking or taking their own position of how they hoped it happened to an extreme.  For soome reason,  some Christians wish to believe that the Jews beat the living daylights out of Jesus.  The initial translation didn't mention it being Jews; at first it was the Romans.  ( this information was on a radio program called Tapestry up here in Canada on CBC over the past weekend. )  a bunch of theologians from various religions discussed not only the movie but Easter and the entire shebang..


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## Stickboy (Apr 13, 2004)

The passion is not about the life of Jesus.  ALL passion plays are about the death of Jesus and his reserection.  

The point of the Passion of the Christ was not about making a movie about his life or his teachings.  It was soley made  to SHOW people what how terrible his death was.  Even the bible states that he was tortured more than others that were put up on a cross.

Prince, I agree it wasn't entertaining.  Having said that, I thought it was a very moving (if not disturbing) movie.  But the passion is not about his life - it's about his death.

The bible doesn't say the Jews beat the crap out him, but it does state that Jews were hitting him when they were questioning him.

There are very few scenes (only 3 or 4 come to mind) in the movie that are not right out of the bible.   And in defense of Gibson, he has stated that he added a couple of things for "effect".  These would be the demon children, throwing Jesus over the wall, and perhaps the devil lurking around.  I think most believers would say that they believe the devil was present during the crucifixion.   I certainly do.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> IF he DOES believe and follows and practices what he preaches would it not follow then that he would also DO as Christ actually SAID to do?



Well I can tell you what Christ said NOT to do.  And that is running off at the mouth telling how much you DO give.  And I'm sure Mel could not give a crap about what you want to know either.  He answers to someone alot higher up than you John. lol


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> Hi Rock. Normally I do feel it is a person's private business - UNLESS - that person is TELLING others how to live their lives which is what Mel Gibson is doing.


Oh Please...


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> Hi Bustinout. What would I do with the money - I can tell you HONESTLY that if I said as Mel Gibson has said I would be giving ALL of that money I made on the film to those less fortunate - HONESLTY deserving so. Every penny above the actual costs. Yes, I would - IF I was being honest and very sincere and following what Christ said to do as Mel Gibson has said he is doing. The 10% figure is outrageous in my mind. That is a very small amount especially when you think about the subject of the movie he has made. Its message, etc.
> 
> Take Care, John H.



I agree with you there John.  But that is very easy to say on this side of the fence.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 13, 2004)

*Re: Re: "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +*



> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> John,
> 
> The Bible was written by men, so we have no idea what Christ said to do. Christ never said anything about what to do, and he never did say anything. The Bible was written by men, and Jesus never said anything, and never did. How can Mel Gibson do as Christ said when he never said anything, because the Bible was written by men, and not by Jesus I might add.
> ...



Huh   Not sure I get your meaning there Craig.  You are right.  The Bible was written by men.  Men inspired by God.  Some of which actually walked with Jesus.  No dissing you here man, just not clear on the "Jesus never said anything" part.



> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> 
> what is funny is to listen to self - confessed religious people proudly proclaim that " at least they got the part about Jesus being beaten correct!"  .. !! how the hell would they know for how long the guy was beaten?  were they there?  it's wishful thinking or taking their own position of how they hoped it happened to an extreme.



MM, you do not have to be there to know historical fact.  Like the fact that Romans were some of the best at inflicting pain.  Do a little history research.  You will learn about the degree of hatred Rome had for that kind of blasphemy.  So no, nobody had to be there to understand history and the kind of beating involved.



> For soome reason,  some Christians wish to believe that the Jews beat the living daylights out of Jesus.  The initial translation didn't mention it being Jews; at first it was the Romans.  ( this information was on a radio program called Tapestry up here in Canada on CBC over the past weekend. )  a bunch of theologians from various religions discussed not only the movie but Easter and the entire shebang..



Turning the tables on your original argument...how do you know there where NOT beatings inflicted by Jews...where YOU there?
Personally, I don't believe there were...I believe they had others carry out the dirty work.  Now to all my Jewish peeps, that is in no way a Jewish slur.  Again, just stating the way the Pharisees and Sanhedron(sp) prolly did things back then.  

But you are correct, there are several parts of the movie where Mel exercised some "lattitude", but the "basic core" of the Gospel was not compromised.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Maybe Mel could invest the money in better writers so if he produces a sequel people will not fall asleep watching it.
> 
> Yes, I did see the movie, it was awful.



P. with your views, did you expect anything else?  Curious...


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## Vieope (Apr 13, 2004)

_$500 million 
 Probably he is a very smart atheist.  _


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## Rocco32 (Apr 13, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +*



> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> Huh   Not sure I get your meaning there Craig.  You are right.  The Bible was written by men.  Men inspired by God.  Some of which actually walked with Jesus.  No dissing you here man, just not clear on the "Jesus never said anything" part.


Craig is making fun of John from another thread where John was using the fact that that Jesus never really said anything and the Bible was written by men to prove an erroneous point. Craig just turned his words around on him here.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 13, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +*



> _*Originally posted by rock4832 *_
> Craig is making fun of John from another thread where John was using the fact that that Jesus never really said anything and the Bible was written by men to prove an erroneous point. Craig just turned his words around on him here.



Crap...I musta missed that post.

I hate looking stupid...but used to it. lol


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 13, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +*



> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> 
> MM, you do not have to be there to know historical fact.  Like the fact that Romans were some of the best at inflicting pain.  Do a little history research.  You will learn about the degree of hatred Rome had for that kind of blasphemy.  So no, nobody had to be there to understand history and the kind of beating involved.




Please tell me how this is an historic fact and not a subjective perception.  There are three sides to every story, person A's, person B's, and the truth.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 13, 2004)

Oh please Dale...  That is the same thing the Holocost nay sayers always spout.   I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you.  Seems like nobody wants to find anything for themselves...instead, just make others prove it.  And until they do...it never happended.

Questions for you...Were blacks ever hated so much in the South that they were hanged and dragged?  Or was that just a subjective perception?


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> Oh please Dale...  That is the same thing the Holocost nay sayers always spout.   I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you.  Seems like nobody wants to find anything for themselves...instead, just make others prove it.  And until they do...it never happended.
> 
> Questions for you...Were blacks ever hated so much in the South that they were hanged and dragged?  Or was that just a subjective perception?




There is video of such things.  Also, it is alot less far removed from our present and, therefore, alot less open for interpretation.  I am not knocking your ideology, you have the right to believe what you want just like I will believe what I want.  I personally believe in evolution, but it is certainly NOT fact.  There are other theories that have yet to be disproven.  If one religion were fact, why would anyone follow another?  This is not a religious discussion, it is a discussion of proper science.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 13, 2004)

Science really has nothing to do with it either Dale.  It cannot be proven or disproven with science.  I realize that you are not nocking my beliefs and I have no problem with people questioning them either.  I think questions always make for a stronger belief system...or unfortunatly a weeker one at times too.  Well they did not have the luxury of videos back then.  But their methods of record keeping were far from sloppy either.   It's sort of frustrating that only because we cannot see visual proof of something, we take they easy road and say "NO WAY".  I admit I do that too though.  As for why some follow one religion over another, your guess is as good as mine...I guess it's what they call free will.   I'll tell you this though, I do have some resources that can certainly show the accuracy of the records that were kept 2000 years ago.(granted, they still require a smidgen of faith...but what part of the past does not?...as well as science)  If you'll bear with me while I take some time to get to them, I'd be glad to pass them along to you if interested.  Not to change your mind of course, but rather to show you where my info comes from and why I believe it.  May take me some time to get it though since it is not in my posessoin.   Like I said, not interested in a pissing contest, but you are one of the few that can carry deap conversations around here. lol


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 13, 2004)

You don't necessarily need a video, but if you have one that would be pretty solid proof, although videos very rarely give you any context.  I don't really think context is needed when seeing African Americans being hung, pretty cut and dry actually when the group that was doing it admitted it freely.

I would be more than happy to see what you've got in terms of "proof".  I just watched that movie Jesus of Nazareth the other day and it was pretty neat since I had no idea what would happen.  I would say you have a large task at hand trying to prove something such as this since alot of it rests on taking Jesus on his word that he was the son of man, which would be nearly impossible to prove.  This is of course provided that all these characters DO exist.  I don't actually think the difficulty is in PROVING christianity, you can't really PROVE anything.  The difficulty would lie in DISPrOVING all other religions.


----------



## Arnold (Apr 13, 2004)

History is always based on the writers perceptions of what happened.


----------



## BUSTINOUT (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> You don't necessarily need a video, but if you have one that would be pretty solid proof, although videos very rarely give you any context.  I don't really think context is needed when seeing African Americans being hung, pretty cut and dry actually when the group that was doing it admitted it freely.



Agreed, but when those people die and those pictures/videos fade away...then what?



> I would be more than happy to see what you've got in terms of "proof".  I just watched that movie Jesus of Nazareth the other day and it was pretty neat since I had no idea what would happen.  I would say you have a large task at hand trying to prove something such as this since alot of it rests on taking Jesus on his word that he was the son of man, which would be nearly impossible to prove.  This is of course provided that all these characters DO exist.  I don't actually think the difficulty is in PROVING christianity, you can't really PROVE anything.  The difficulty would lie in DISPrOVING all other religions.



Dale, not so much on proof as Jesus as the son of man.  That requires too much faith to prove to someone.  I was referring to the accuracy of record keeping during that time.  Sometimes you have to take information and how it was "passed down" and base an opinion/belief on that information.  For example, three hundred years from now when your family members are sitting around the fireplace telling stories about how great a guy great great great great great grandad Dale was.  10:1 someone will be there saying "prove it!"  I heard he was a dick and until you can show me otherwise, I ain't buyin' it. lol  Poor example I know, but it is the best I could think of right off the top of my head. lol But the only proof they have is the accuracy of the information handed down about great great great great great grandad Dale. lol

I agree, Jesus of Nazareth was pretty good.  History channel has been showing some cool stuff too.  Not only about Jesus, but about that period in time too.


----------



## BUSTINOUT (Apr 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> History is always based on the writers perceptions of what happened.



No doubt


----------



## craig777 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +*



> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> Huh   Not sure I get your meaning there Craig.  You are right.  The Bible was written by men.  Men inspired by God.  Some of which actually walked with Jesus.  No dissing you here man, just not clear on the "Jesus never said anything" part.




BO,

I was trying to sound like John.  This is the line he gives over and over and over.  So I thought I would send it back his way.  I don't believe any of that.


----------



## Dale Mabry (Apr 14, 2004)

Not to get off topic, but it amazes me how much I used to HATE the History channel and now I love it.


----------



## John H. (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> This is quite funny.
> 
> 
> Anyway John, if the church really did follow the "Law of Christ", a large portion of the collection plate should go to the needy.  I have seen hundreds of Churches and most of these buildings are incredible and I bet incredibly expensive, some in the millions.  Who says you need an immaculate building to pray in?  I am not religious, but I would dare say that most of the people currently going to Church and the clergy involved missed his point as well.



Hi Dale. I agree. I have always thought it strange how those that profess to be so religious and following "the word" end up with all the money and seem to have no real regard for those less fortunate - I am not speaking about less fortunate that are lazy and do not do for themselves and make the effort but more importantly the less likely to be able to help themselves - the children. 

Take Care, John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: Re: "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +*



> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> John,
> 
> The Bible was written by men, so we have no idea what Christ said to do. Christ never said anything about what to do, and he never did say anything. The Bible was written by men, and Jesus never said anything, and never did. How can Mel Gibson do as Christ said when he never said anything, because the Bible was written by men, and not by Jesus I might add.
> ...



Hi Craig. The Bible was written by men - over 40 and over a long period of time. The New Testament for example was written long after Christ died - perhaps 250 years later. But we are told that some of what is written in that Bible was said by Christ and those that believe say they follow what Christ had to say - which is my point - if they are actually following what is said then I would hope they would DO as He said to do at least as far as helping those  who are truly less fortunate if they are able...

Take Care, John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by nikegurl *_
> anyone know what percentage of the Vatican's wealth (think art, gold etc) is going to the poor this year?
> 
> didn't think so.
> ...


 Hi Nikegurl. I agree and I am not trying to just point out about Mel Gibson's wealth but the wealth of anyone or any institution... I am not trying to bash anyone just wondering how much these religious people really follow what they say they believe in... FOR those that are truly less fortunate (at least the children).... 

When someone or some institution sets themselves up as being so righteous and good, etc. I think anyone has an obligation to ask serious and honest questions of them especially if they focus on others and how they live their lives or not, etc. 

Take Care, John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Maybe Mel could invest the money in better writers so if he produces a sequel people will not fall asleep watching it.
> 
> Yes, I did see the movie, it was awful.


 Hi Prince. I heard of parents taking their children to watch this movie - little children - I thought that was VERY WRONG given the violence. The movie does have an "R" rating but apparently some parents do not consider the total welfare of their children honestly.  Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> not sure who you're talking to, but I have spoken with several people that share my opinion, even some Christians.
> 
> I do think that it COULD have been a good movie had the first half or even 3/4 been focused on Christ and his life, but watching him get beaten to death for 1.5 hours is not my idea of a good movie.


  Hi Prince. I agree with you. I understand he was trying to prove his point and show the horror and pain and suffering of Christ and was wanting people to be shocked at the reality of loosing your life in this manner... It was not a movie any child should ever see in my opinion because of the violence and the fact children are children. They will grow up and be better able to handle a subject like this later in their lives. Take Care, John H.


----------



## MarcusMaximus (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +*



> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> Huh   Not sure I get your meaning there Craig.  You are right.  The Bible was written by men.  Men inspired by God.  Some of which actually walked with Jesus.  No dissing you here man, just not clear on the "Jesus never said anything" part.
> MM, you do not have to be there to know historical fact.  Like the fact that Romans were some of the best at inflicting pain.  Do a little history research.  You will learn about the degree of hatred Rome had for that kind of blasphemy.  So no, nobody had to be there to understand history and the kind of beating involved.
> Turning the tables on your original argument...how do you know there where NOT beatings inflicted by Jews...where YOU there?
> ...




IMO, your views of people, humanity , the bible, religion are exactly why i chose to turn my head AWAY from religion that are based upon differences between people rather than similarities.  That promulgate hatred, misunderstanding, distortion and obfuscation rather than love, tolerance compassion and loyalty.  i leave you to your own religion.  thankfully you have not exercised your right to subject me to your own conversion.  for that i am grateful.  


MM


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## John H. (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Stickboy *_
> John H.,
> 
> Couple of things here.  Gibson is a Catholic that doesn't follow the Vatican II decrees.  Many that I know in the church prefer the older ways.  (BTW, Read a book called 'AA-1025' if you need more info on why some catholics are wary about Vatican II.).
> ...


 Hi Stickboy. I was aware that some Catholics like the old liturgy and in Latin. I understand that and why some like it that way. Latin was the original language... It can help a person understand another language beside the one they normally speak also. 

As for HIS church, the story I saw on TV showed the church he gave 5 million to build and I saw an article which said he was the head of the church and in charge I believe (I do not think the story was saying that Mel Gibson was acting as a priest or as the head of this church - as the pope is in the Roman Catholic Church - only that he was "the owner"?) The article also stated that he did not want anyone knowing where the church is and those that do he does not want anyone telling others where it is - I thought this strange... Maybe he wants a church building where only he and some of his close friends can worship?  The story was on the internet too and I believe it was from FoxNews.

As for his money - if he sets himself up as someone who follows Christ and His teachings and states others should also and that he follows the Bible to the letter and believes in it totally - THIS is where I then feel I can question him personally since he already is a multi-millionaire and now has another 500 million plus just from this one movie he made. Certainly he has more than he needs personally to live a very good life and for the sake of CHILDREN in this country and around the world who can not help themselves I would think that if Mel Gibson follows truthfully what he says he would at least be willing to help out CHILDREN in some fashion.  See what I mean?

Take Care, John H.


----------



## Flex (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I do think that it COULD have been a good movie had the first half or even 3/4 been focused on Christ and his life, but watching him get beaten to death for 1.5 hours is not my idea of a good movie.



that was exactly the point of the movie. to show how he suffered to save us. yes, it got gruesome at times, but the point was to show how much he went through so that our sins may be forgiven.


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## camarosuper6 (Apr 14, 2004)

I think I'm the only Christian left that hasnt seen it yet.

I will make a point to see it tommorrow.


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## John H. (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> agreed.
> what is funny is to listen to self - confessed religious people proudly proclaim that " at least they got the part about Jesus being beaten correct!"  .. !! how the hell would they know for how long the guy was beaten?  were they there?  it's wishful thinking or taking their own position of how they hoped it happened to an extreme.  For soome reason,  some Christians wish to believe that the Jews beat the living daylights out of Jesus.  The initial translation didn't mention it being Jews; at first it was the Romans.  ( this information was on a radio program called Tapestry up here in Canada on CBC over the past weekend. )  a bunch of theologians from various religions discussed not only the movie but Easter and the entire shebang..


 Hi MM. I agree. Even the scholars disagree with what is said in the Bible - they spend their entire lives studying it and they disagree about a lot and are mistified about some of it no one knows what it means.... It was written by Men though - over 40 and over a long period of time. It does contradict itself in many places. I believe it is an old "document" that has at least in part survived - a collection of literature written by many, an old book yes, but how accurate is it really and what was the thinking really of those that did the actual writing, what was the conditions under which they lived, what were their true motives, what kind of people were they really, etc. - all things a person MUST ask when reading anything but especially with regard to religious beliefs. God Himself would WANT all of us to honestly question Him and He gave us each the brain to do that honestly, accurately, completely, etc. for good reasons. Anything that is honest, sincere, accurate, etc. will stand the test of any questioning and nothing should be exempt from someone honestly wanting answers....

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Stickboy *_
> The passion is not about the life of Jesus.  ALL passion plays are about the death of Jesus and his reserection.
> 
> The point of the Passion of the Christ was not about making a movie about his life or his teachings.  It was soley made  to SHOW people what how terrible his death was.  Even the bible states that he was tortured more than others that were put up on a cross.
> ...


 Hi Stickboy. The title does say this: The PASSION of the Christ. It is supposed to portray the last twelve hours of his life.  Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> Well I can tell you what Christ said NOT to do.  And that is running off at the mouth telling how much you DO give.  And I'm sure Mel could not give a crap about what you want to know either.  He answers to someone alot higher up than you John. lol



Bustinout. My point for even starting this thread was to discuss what if anything Mel Gibson was doing with the money he made on this movie BECAUSE he set HIMSELF up as following the teachings of Christ and the Bible so I feel I have a right to ask then what he intended to do with money he made from this movie he based on the last hours of Christ's life. Mel Gibson is ALREADY wealthy. IF he TRULY FOLLOWS the teachings of Christ and the Bible LIKE HE SAID HE DOES then I would think ANYONE would have good reason to then question what he is doing with the vast amount of money he has made on this. Even Christ Himself would I would think.  

Mel Gibson HIMSELF set himself up to the questioning by others by the statements HE MADE is my point. I am just following up on what he says he believes...  Understand what I am saying?

John H.


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## Flex (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> it is HE who is SAYING how we should live our lives in his interviews and statements so I feel he gives me then the opening to ask then if he is following what Christ was supposed to have said and how to live your (meaning anyone's) life and IF Mel is distributing his wealth to those in HONEST need. Certainly I do not think you could b. s. Christ if you made 500 million + on one movie about HIM and then kept it all for yourself - that would be counter to what Christ is supposed to have wanted...



John H-
there is a fine line b/w what people say and what they do. of course a man's word is his bond, but you know what? people don't do exactly as they say, or in this case, Christians/Catholics don't do exactly as they should. If you really want to get down to the nitty gritty, we were all born with original sin, meaning with sin in our lives, so no one is perfect.

if EVERYONE (meaning Catholics/Christians....all believers in 
God/Jesus) followed EXACTLY what they should on earth, you think the U.S. would be in Iraq right now. NO, Bush would be having Osama over for brunch at the Whitehouse, cuz one of the things Jesus preached was to "forgive those who hurt you". 

So there is no way you can say Mel should give up all his money to charity, even if he said people should live "this way" or "that way". 

Do i think Mel should donate $? hell yes. Do i think pro athletes should donate some of the millions they make? hell yes. Should Osama give some of his fortune to poor Muslims instead of funding terrorism? of course. does Bill Gates need $20 billion to survive? no, i THINK he could get by w/19, but that'd be pushing it. 
BUT, just because they don't donate money to the poor doesn't make them any less a believer in God. sure, it is a great thing to do, and by all means, i would if i had the money. 

My point is John H, many people are Catholic/Christian (...followers of the Bible/Jesus etc.), but to what degree is their and only their determination. Some choose to live their lives by Christ's word in other ways other than donating money.
So there's no way you can judge what Mel should do with his money, cuz only God can judge. Peace.


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## John H. (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> I agree with you there John.  But that is very easy to say on this side of the fence.


 Hi Bustinout. All I am saying is: here is a man - Mel Gibson - who happens to already be rich and has everything he will ever need and is now making a movie which has made so far worldwide 500 million + and HE says he follows the teachings of Christ and the Bible and so should we. SO, if that is so, what is he going to do with helping those less fortunate - such as the children - as Christ said to do is my point.

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Vieope *_
> _$500 million
> Probably he is a very smart atheist.  _


 Hi Vieope. I suppose anthing is possible.  Take Care, John H.


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## Flex (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> All I am saying is: here is a man - Mel Gibson - who happens to already be rich and has everything he will ever need and is now making a movie which has made so far worldwide 500 million + and HE says he follows the teachings of Christ and the Bible and so should we. SO, if that is so, what is he going to do with helping those less fortunate - such as the children - as Christ said to do is my point.



And what i'm saying, John H., is that it DOES NOT make him any less a believer in God if he doesnt donate all his money to the poor.


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## John H. (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +*



> _*Originally posted by rock4832 *_
> Craig is making fun of John from another thread where John was using the fact that that Jesus never really said anything and the Bible was written by men to prove an erroneous point. Craig just turned his words around on him here.


 Hi Rock. I understand what Craig was trying to do. I stand completely by what I said. The Bible was written by Men - over 40. I was not backing off on what I said at all and am not. The New Testament was not written until AFTER the death of Christ - perhaps over 250 YEARS after so I would think it kinda difficult to remember accurately what anyone actually said so long after a person's death. You must remember that where this all was written too is very hot, sandy, arid mostly, hateful weatherwise and I think people in this area at the time did not have a lot going for them. So ACCURATELY recording anything would naturally lead to anyone questioning. As for Jesus saying anything I was referring to Jesus NOT and God NEVER saying anything EVER about the Sexualities - THEY NEVER DID THEMSELVES - that is true. I stand by that statement I made regarding that.  Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +*



> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> Crap...I musta missed that post.
> 
> I hate looking stupid...but used to it. lol


 Hi Bustinout. I was referring to Sexualities - Heterosexuality, BiSexuality and Homosexuality - Christ and God BOTH NEVER SAID - THEMSELVES - one word about them as recorded in the Bible. I stand by that because They NEVER DID. Certainly if it was an important topic someone somewhere would have recorded what THEY DID SAY - Christ and God NEVER SAID period. Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> History is always based on the writers perceptions of what happened.


 Hi Prince. Exactly. And it is not always accurate, honest, complete, etc. That is part of humanity. The Bible was written by human beings. The conditions which they lived were not ideal by any stretch of the imagination. Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +*



> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> BO,
> 
> I was trying to sound like John.  This is the line he gives over and over and over.  So I thought I would send it back his way.  I don't believe any of that.



Hi Craig.  I have no problem with you questioning me either. If what I have to say requires questioning anyone should. If what I say is accurate, honest, etc. it will stand up to what I have said. That goes for anyone. And anything INCLUDING religion and religious beliefs. They should be questioned for their authenticity and accuracy always. I am not going to say something that is so important that is not true, accurate, etc. I stand by what I said. Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> John H-
> there is a fine line b/w what people say and what they do. of course a man's word is his bond, but you know what? people don't do exactly as they say, or in this case, Christians/Catholics don't do exactly as they should. If you really want to get down to the nitty gritty, we were all born with original sin, meaning with sin in our lives, so no one is perfect.
> 
> ...


 Hi Flex. I agree with you. Not all people are perfect but when they set themselves to tell others.... When they set themself up to proclaim something... When they set themselves up to tell a story and say they follow the teachings... But are they being honest with themselves and are they really believing in what they proclaim they believe in? Are they then a hypocrite? CHILDREN are the least able to help themselves. Someone with a lot of money - much more than they actually need to survive themselves and then profess to follow the teachings of Christ and the Bible I would then think would be obliged to follow through at least with regard to the CHILDREN.  Take Care, John H.


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## Flex (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> Hi Flex. I agree with you. Not all people are perfect but when they set themselves to tell others.... When they set themself up to proclaim something... When they set themselves up to tell a story and say they follow the teachings... But are they being honest with themselves and are they really believing in what they proclaim they believe in? Are they then a hypocrite?
> 
> CHILDREN are the least able to help themselves. Someone with a lot of money - much more than they actually need to survive themselves and then profess to follow the teachings of Christ and the Bible I would then think would be obliged to follow through at least with regard to the CHILDREN.  Take Care, John H.



OMG bro. you're missing my point. 

Show me one person that has NOT ever been a hypocrit, and i'll show you a liar. 

Sure, he "set" himself up to proclaim something, to follow the teachings, and to believe in what they proclaim to what they believe in. 
BUT, LIKE I SAID BEFORE, it DOES NOT make Mel any less of a believer if he doesn't donate his money. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, there are a million different degrees of believing. 

Am i not a "good" follower of Jesus b/c i made $500 this week and didn't donate all to the children? NO. Is Mel b/c he didnt donate $500 million? NO. Is George Bush not a believer in Christ b/c he is at war, when he should just forgive the terrorists for blowing the hell outta the U.S.????

and this whole children thing, that is a completely offtopic tangent. DON"T GET ME WRONG, of course i believe in charity. But that has nothing to do with this whole topic. 

BUT SERIOUSLY, John H., NO ONE does EXACTLY what they say or "should" do. Find me someone that does and i'll show you a liar.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +*



> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> MM, you do not have to be there to know historical fact.  Like the fact that Romans were some of the best at inflicting pain.  Do a little history research.  You will learn about the degree of hatred Rome had for that kind of blasphemy.  So no, nobody had to be there to understand history and the kind of beating involved.
> Turning the tables on your original argument...how do you know there where NOT beatings inflicted by Jews...where YOU there?
> 
> ...



the turning the tables statement is spurious; it is the argument of a 5 year old.    " i know you are but what am I' type of thing.  try something else.  

historical fact?  the bible?  surely that was a misprint and you meant to say "hysterical".


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## Arnold (Apr 14, 2004)

NO OFFENSE CHRISTIANS, THIS IS MY OPINION AND I AM ENTITLED TO IT:

*Jesus was a great philosopher, teacher and leader, nothing more. Very similar to Plato, Socrates and Aristostle.*


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## nikegurl (Apr 14, 2004)

here's one for you....when people start saying how historically accurate the movie is....the chances that jesus was a white man are slim to none.  that's how we portray him and his disciples in our art etc. but considering geography...i tend to think not.


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## Flex (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> NO OFFENSE CHRISTIANS, THIS IS MY OPINION AND I AM ENTITLED TO IT:
> 
> *Jesus was a great philosopher, teacher and leader, nothing more. Very similar to Plato, Socrates and Aristostle.*



ya well opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one


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## Flex (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by nikegurl *_
> here's one for you....when people start saying how historically accurate the movie is....the chances that jesus was a white man are slim to none.  that's how we portray him and his disciples in our art etc. but considering geography...i tend to think not.



well, in reality, Jesus was Jewish. Jewish people in the U.S. today look pretty white to me last time i checked....


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## Arnold (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> ya well opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one



wow, that was so original.


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## nikegurl (Apr 14, 2004)

in reality the Arabian peninsula is present day Africa - not the Middle East.

most people in the bible were people of color (Mediterranean, black, Semitics, Romans - not Anglos)

what i've stated above doesn't proof anything - but it's enough to make me question the likelihood that Jesus was Caucassian.

doesn't much matter to me - but comes to mind when the "authenticity" of these types of movies is brought up


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## Flex (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> wow, that was so original.



so was your opinion about Jesus


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## Arnold (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> so was your opinion about Jesus



your responses are like a fifth graders....not worth my time.


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## Flex (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> your responses are like a fifth graders....not worth my time.



oh ok because you are SO articulate let me tell ya.


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## Arnold (Apr 14, 2004)

point proven...


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## Flex (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> point proven...



ditto


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 14, 2004)

and the beat goes on.......  the beat goes on..  
like the argument about the fifth graders...where have i seen that before recently   . 
nah nah nah nah nah.....  
in the same vein as a bunch of fifth graders.  

hysterical fact?   ask any christian about dinosaurs..  see how the run..  see how they run.....


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> Not to get off topic, but it amazes me how much I used to HATE the History channel and now I love it.



LOL...ditto.  You'd have to drag me to history calss in college.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> ya well opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one




People who state this are generally saying that they believe their opinion is better than someone else's.  Considering there is alot more support for evolution than there is for Christianity, I would tend to agree that Prince's opinion is more likely correct.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> Bustinout. My point for even starting this thread was to discuss what if anything Mel Gibson was doing with the money he made on this movie BECAUSE he set HIMSELF up as following the teachings of Christ and the Bible so I feel I have a right to ask then what he intended to do with money he made from this movie he based on the last hours of Christ's life. Mel Gibson is ALREADY wealthy. IF he TRULY FOLLOWS the teachings of Christ and the Bible LIKE HE SAID HE DOES then I would think ANYONE would have good reason to then question what he is doing with the vast amount of money he has made on this. Even Christ Himself would I would think.
> 
> Mel Gibson HIMSELF set himself up to the questioning by others by the statements HE MADE is my point. I am just following up on what he says he believes...  Understand what I am saying?
> ...



I understand what you're saying John.  But because someone prefesses to follow Christ and His teachings does not make them perfect to the letter.  That was the reason Christ died in the first place...because we are NOT perfect.  The very problem that nonChristians have against Christian, I have in reverse at times.  Being judgemental.  Christians are not perfect nor do they claim to be(or at least ones with much sense lol).  As for what Christ would be thinking, not sure if you are qualified to say that.  If so, where are you getting your info>


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> Hi Bustinout. All I am saying is: here is a man - Mel Gibson - who happens to already be rich and has everything he will ever need and is now making a movie which has made so far worldwide 500 million + and HE says he follows the teachings of Christ and the Bible and so should we. SO, if that is so, what is he going to do with helping those less fortunate - such as the children - as Christ said to do is my point.
> 
> Take Care, John H.



John, I get your point man, but evidentally my point is not makin git through.  He owes NOBODY an explination.  Have you ever thought that maybe he's been blessed with financial success because he showed some sack and spend his OWN money to do what no weasel leftist in Hollywood was willing to do.  Go read the parable of the talents.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> NO OFFENSE CHRISTIANS, THIS IS MY OPINION AND I AM ENTITLED TO IT:
> 
> *Jesus was a great philosopher, teacher and leader, nothing more. Very similar to Plato, Socrates and Aristostle.*



No offense take P.


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## Crono1000 (Apr 14, 2004)

dare I suggest we create a distinction between christians and creationalists.  I am a christian but I'm not doubting evolution.  I believe in the stories of the Bible but I do believe that there is room in the Bible for evolution.  

but must every John H. thread go off on some tangent where the same members of the board rag on beliefs and who's right and who's not?  What's the sense in argueing over this?  If the christians are right, then we can point our fingers down at yall and laugh while we're in heaven (jk, that wouldn't be very nice now would it).  If the nonbelievers are right, then there won't be much oppurtunity to point anywhere, we're all dead.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +*



> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> the turning the tables statement is spurious; it is the argument of a 5 year old.    " i know you are but what am I' type of thing.  try something else.
> 
> historical fact?  the bible?  surely that was a misprint and you meant to say "hysterical".



That's not how I am trying to come across MM.  Just that anyones argument can be turned on themselves.  As for the Bible being a historical document, there are as many nonchristian experts that believe that as not.  They may not believe in the miracles and teaching of Jesus, but they do not dispute historical accuracies of writings.  There are plenty of other scribes of that time that have writings that verify the historical writings of the Bible.  I'm not trying to come to you with smartass little remarks either...so I would expect the same courtesy.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 14, 2004)

I would just like to point out here that no one here is wrong.  If there were a definite answer there would not be more than one ideology.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Crono1000 *_
> dare I suggest we create a distinction between christians and creationalists.  I am a christian but I'm not doubting evolution.  I believe in the stories of the Bible but I do believe that there is room in the Bible for evolution.
> 
> but must every John H. thread go off on some tangent where the same members of the board rag on beliefs and who's right and who's not?  What's the sense in argueing over this?  If the christians are right, then we can point our fingers down at yall and laugh while we're in heaven (jk, that wouldn't be very nice now would it).  If the nonbelievers are right, then there won't be much oppurtunity to point anywhere, we're all dead.



I'd have to agree Crono.  Not meaqning to rag on anyone's beliefs.  Or at least no more than mine are being ragged on.  It's ironic that Christians are called narrow minded, yet, we are sitting here discussing this with people that have to have visual proof before believing anything. lol


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## Flex (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> People who state this are generally saying that they believe their opinion is better than someone else's.  Considering there is alot more support for evolution than there is for Christianity, I would tend to agree that Prince's opinion is more likely correct.



I def to do NOT think my opinion is better than everyone else.

i'm just sick of people putting down my beliefs, that's all. its the same thing when people argue politics. everyone has their own opinion, and they're not easily changed. 

i guess i should just not express my opinion when others disagree with me???


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> I would just like to point out here that no one here is wrong.  If there were a definite answer there would not be more than one ideology.



I'd have to disagree slightly dale.  Not for the sake of argument, but to make a point.  How many people do you know that are definitely wrong about something, but have absolutely no clue that they are wrong and therefore keep being wrong.  But you do make a very good point.  Life would be so much easier but so much more boring. lol


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> 
> i guess i should just not express my opinion when others disagree with me???



THAT'S RIGHT...KNOW YOUR ROLE AND SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> How many people do you know that are definitely wrong about something, but have absolutely no clue that they are wrong and therefore keep being wrong.




That would be roughly equal to the number of Bush supporters on this web site.  

Naw, my point is that the only way to prove you are right is to prove everyone else wrong, which you could not do without the aid of a time machine or everyone else saying that they are wrong.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> I def to do NOT think my opinion is better than everyone else.
> 
> i'm just sick of people putting down my beliefs, that's all. its the same thing when people argue politics. everyone has their own opinion, and they're not easily changed.
> ...




That was just the way you came off with that opinions are like aholes statement.  That statement is basically telling someone their opinion is wrong.  I don't think Prince was putting down your belief so much as showing his own.  

I personally have no problem discussing religion or politics with anyone.  I used to argue with some of my best friends for hours about this stuff and then, when it was over, we forgot about it and got drunk.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> That would be roughly equal to the number of Bush supporters on this web site.


Hey now...  lol



> or everyone else saying that they are wrong.


And we know the likelihood of that. lol


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> I don't think Prince was putting down your belief so much as showing his own.



Prince has the gift of doing both at the same time.  As do I though so I'm not about to point fingers. lol


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## Arnold (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> i'm just sick of people putting down my beliefs, that's all. its the same thing when people argue politics. everyone has their own opinion, and they're not easily changed.



I did NOT put down anyone's beliefs, I simply stated my opinion on Jesus, if that insulted you seek help.

I believe that Jesus existed, otherwise we would not still be talking about him today. I believe he was a great philosopher, teacher, etc., he led and obviously had great influence on many people, but I do NOT believe he was the son of God. He may have went around saying that and that is why they crucified him.

No one knows the entire truth though, there is so much speculation it's rediculous.

Obviously I am not religeous, I never will be. That does not mean I am an athiest though.

I just think that religeon ultimately does much more harm than good, and has all through out history.


I have said this before, and I will say (post) it again...

"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business." - Jess Ventura


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## Eggs (Apr 14, 2004)

And as we all know, Jesse Ventura is a great philosopher


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## Eggs (Apr 14, 2004)

So was Mr. T!


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## Arnold (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> And as we all know, Jesse Ventura is a great philosopher



I actually think he is very intelligent and speaks well.

But that is irrelevant, I just like that quote.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 14, 2004)

And Jesus too.


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## Flex (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> I don't think Prince was putting down your belief so much as showing his own.



Fair enough. 

But i mean the whole point of the thread was because someone was trying to dispute what Mel Gibson does with his money or some shit, then of course someone has to go ahead and say this and that about Jesus. No, it doesnt insult me, so Prince, apparently i don't need to seek help, but thanks for looking out for me in case i did need it. I just draw that analagously to people who come onto this BB forum and say they believe BB is just ok, when in fact we are very passionate about it, just as i am very passionate about my religous beliefs.

but apparently i have the I.Q. of a 5th grader, so WTF do i know


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## Flex (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> THAT'S RIGHT...KNOW YOUR ROLE AND SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol



BREAK YO SELF BO!


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## Arnold (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> I just draw that analagously to people who come onto this BB forum and say they believe BB is just ok, when in fact we are very passionate about it, just as i am very passionate about my religous beliefs.
> 
> but apparently i have the I.Q. of a 5th grader, so WTF do i know



the difference is this is a bodybuilding board, not a religeous board.

I never said anything about your IQ, I said your responses.


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## Flex (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> the difference is this is a bodybuilding board, not a religeous board.



OOOOOh, so if its not a BB thread, then its garbage? it actually wasn't even a religious thread....


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## Flex (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I never said anything about your IQ, I said your responses.



oh, so my responses are like that of a 5th grader and not my IQ, that really boosts my credentials.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> BREAK YO SELF BO!



You got it buddy. lol


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 15, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +*



> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> That's not how I am trying to come across MM.  Just that anyones argument can be turned on themselves.  As for the Bible being a historical document, there are as many nonchristian experts that believe that as not.  They may not believe in the miracles and teaching of Jesus, but they do not dispute historical accuracies of writings.  There are plenty of other scribes of that time that have writings that verify the historical writings of the Bible.  I'm not trying to come to you with smartass little remarks either...so I would expect the same courtesy.




your comment that since i was not there, and you were not there and that no one alive today was there illustrates my original point. you seem to have trouble making connections.  no one alive today was there at the time, it is a written story reported to have been put down 60-90 years after the event happened.   many books written about the same time frame were not included in the story as some of the authors of the books didn't have the same message as the others.     

Really?  you consider that a smart ass comment above all others?  interesting.    

as always with these discussions devout Christians seem to consider themselves very openminded about people, as long as the people go along with the brainwashing and never question anything.   the devout Christians always bring up " FAITH" and inevitably tell us we are all going to rot in hell.  

as long as i get the top bunk.  and Bacardi rum, none of that ron rico shit!

you explain to me where dinosaurs fit in your theory.  
as for the Bible / Heaven  itself, well, the brochure looks nice. you be sure to send us all a post card when you get there.


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## Eggs (Apr 15, 2004)

You know what I have a problem with Marcus, do you lift weights man? I see your occasional posts in diet and nutrition and supplements. Are you truly a florist?  Could there not potentially be a botanical forum where you could annoy people?

This thread is and should be about Mel Gibson and the money that The Passion made, which our little buddy John thinks Mel owes to the world because he thinks that Mel should hold himself to a standard that he truly doesnt have to.

John, Jesus also died on the Cross by all reports in the bible..  Tell me, should Mel go crucify himself too for the sins of the world?  What else should he do that Jesus did?  And tell me, did Jesus have 500 large back in the day that he gave away to base your example off of in this?  No?  Surprising... and how did this comparison of doing what Jesus would do come to light?  Because you're trying to manipulate what occured to make it sound like  Mel is a bad guy in all of this.  Critics hounded him before, critics hound him now... whoopdeedooo, stand in line, grab your pitch fork and torch, and go get yourself some Christians for Neros garden.  But really, I'd like to think we all have better things to do that squabble like teenage drama queens over money that'll never end up in our pockets.

Oh, and Marcus.  Using words like "interesting" after your sentences... is a idiotic way of trying to look superior.  Lets deflate that bubble with reality why dont we.


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## craig777 (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> You know what I have a problem with Marcus, do you lift weights man? I see your occasional posts in diet and nutrition and supplements. Are you truly a florist?  Could there not potentially be a botanical forum where you could annoy people?
> 
> This thread is and should be about Mel Gibson and the money that The Passion made, which our little buddy John thinks Mel owes to the world because he thinks that Mel should hold himself to a standard that he truly doesnt have to.
> ...



Actually this has nothing to do with Mel Gibson and his money at all. John is trying desparately to make Christians out to be hypocrites so that he can push his own agenda once he has trashed Christians as being hypocritical.

Now John will deny this, but it is definately the truth because what other purpose is there for caring about how Mel Gibson spends his money. John wants to say Mel, "and all other Christians", are hypocrites so therefore you can't believe what they say about anything. For what other purpose does John care about Mel and his money.

I would rather people be like Prince and say exactly what they feel and believe. I don't agree with Prince on this and probably a lot of things, but I defend his right to believe what he wants.

I have yet to see one thread started by a Christian bashing non-Christians, but I have seen many many threads started by non-Christians bashing Christians. Let us believe what we want, and we can have opinions based on those beliefs if we want.

In my opinion John is very hypocritical because he will say in one thread Jesus never said anything, and in another thread he will say Jesus said to do this. Which is it. Pick a side John.

At least you know where Prince stands on this.


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## John H. (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> OMG bro. you're missing my point.
> 
> Show me one person that has NOT ever been a hypocrit, and i'll show you a liar.
> ...


 Hi Flex. I understand what you are saying. All I am saying is that when someone sets themselves up to criticize others with regard to how they should live their lives religiously speaking and they push that on others and SAY that THEY follow every word, etc. - see what I am saying? If Mel Gibson is "so religious", and "so saved" and telling others how to live their lives from a religious standpoint don;t you think he should be the first to step up to the plate and DO HIMSELF? He says he believes in every word so if that is true then he, being a man of great wealth before the movie and now 500 million+ more, don;t you think he should at least consider the CHILDREN who are in need since he HAS more than he will ever need? How can someone live with themselves with such wealth and know there are others less fortunate and ignore them and then say they follow the teachings of the Bible and believe in Christ? I do not think you making $500 dollars - which in today's world is a small amount - can compare with a person making 500 million +. Someone with 500 million + who is already wealthy is not hurting in any way... I am speaking for the children here who are living on the edge and here is a man who professes to be so....  Many people are hypocritical at some point I guess but that does not excuse... 

You being willing to take a part of the $500 dollars you made to help out children is a tremendous thing because while the amount of what you may be able to give may not be all that much for the effort to help out it is that you are willing to do so within your means is a truly wonderful thing and even small amounts help someone. Someone with wealth already and gaining another 500 million +, someone who is not hurting anyway.... 

George "Herbert Hoover" Bush is another subject altogether... This country and its people do have to protect itself from terrorism HERE at home and abroad, at the pump, with your heating bills, and from bullets and planes.... By the way, those that are against us are doing that for religious reasons basically. 

And for "...I'll show you a liar..." - yes I know. 

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> NO OFFENSE CHRISTIANS, THIS IS MY OPINION AND I AM ENTITLED TO IT:
> 
> *Jesus was a great philosopher, teacher and leader, nothing more. Very similar to Plato, Socrates and Aristostle.*


 Hi Prince. You certainly are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. What you say may very well be right on. 

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by nikegurl *_
> here's one for you....when people start saying how historically accurate the movie is....the chances that jesus was a white man are slim to none.  that's how we portray him and his disciples in our art etc. but considering geography...i tend to think not.


 Hi Nikegurl. Yep, this has been said by the religious scholars also. I think "white" people think He was "white", etc.  Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> People who state this are generally saying that they believe their opinion is better than someone else's.  Considering there is alot more support for evolution than there is for Christianity, I would tend to agree that Prince's opinion is more likely correct.



Hi Dale. I agree. Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> I understand what you're saying John.  But because someone prefesses to follow Christ and His teachings does not make them perfect to the letter.  That was the reason Christ died in the first place...because we are NOT perfect.  The very problem that nonChristians have against Christian, I have in reverse at times.  Being judgemental.  Christians are not perfect nor do they claim to be(or at least ones with much sense lol).  As for what Christ would be thinking, not sure if you are qualified to say that.  If so, where are you getting your info>



Hi Bustinout. I understand that. I hate when people who are "so religious" are so willing to damn others and tell them how much THEY are sinning, etc. ... 

"(or at least ones with much sense lol) - GLAD you said that and I CERTAINLY AGREE COMPLETELY!!!

Assuming that what we are told Christ DID say, I am going by those words and have no particular "inroad" myself to Christ necessarily - that I am aware of - I am ONLY thinking of the children who ARE in need....

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> John, I get your point man, but evidentally my point is not makin git through.  He owes NOBODY an explination.  Have you ever thought that maybe he's been blessed with financial success because he showed some sack and spend his OWN money to do what no weasel leftist in Hollywood was willing to do.  Go read the parable of the talents.



Hi Bustinout. I understand that he owe noone an explanation necessarily but it IS HE who is setting himself up to tell others how.....  That is not being credible on his part in my book when he professes....

Hollywood goes where the money is because it is a business and they are in the business of making money... I completely understand what you are saying but you and others MUST REMEMBER that the movie Mel Gibson made would NOT have been at all "popular" UNLESS he made it with almost three hours of VIOLENCE - it WAS the VIOLENCE in the movie that sold the movie NOT the Death of Christ necessarily... The movie was successful BECAUSE OF THE VIOLENCE in it. We as a people must look at this desire for violence very hard. Why is it we LOVE violence but HATE Sex - which is a NATURAL THING - portrayed? 

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Crono1000 *_
> dare I suggest we create a distinction between christians and creationalists.  I am a christian but I'm not doubting evolution.  I believe in the stories of the Bible but I do believe that there is room in the Bible for evolution.
> 
> but must every John H. thread go off on some tangent where the same members of the board rag on beliefs and who's right and who's not?  What's the sense in argueing over this?  If the christians are right, then we can point our fingers down at yall and laugh while we're in heaven (jk, that wouldn't be very nice now would it).  If the nonbelievers are right, then there won't be much oppurtunity to point anywhere, we're all dead.


 Hi Crono. Probably so. As for evolution there is scientific reason to feel that at least some of what is said has real basis in fact. And the sources of their information are always given for others to check... 

"...(jk, that wouldn;t be very nice now would it)." - but you would not be far at all from stating something very true....

As to "believing", I consider the area where the Bible was written and its climate, conditions, etc. - hot, dry, sand blowing everywhere, the starkness, the lack of anything really "going on", etc. and then you add "religion" to it all - seems to me to be a recipe for a lot of no good....

There is absolutely nothing wrong with people wanting answers to the most pressing things of life and living but that effort should always be done with as much accuracy, honesty, completeness, etc. as possible...  How else is the truth really found? There is never anything wrong with asking questions. That is how all learn. 

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> I def to do NOT think my opinion is better than everyone else.
> 
> i'm just sick of people putting down my beliefs, that's all. its the same thing when people argue politics. everyone has their own opinion, and they're not easily changed.
> ...



Hi Flex. You should and must always express your opinion - everyone should. How else do we really learn?  No one knows it all - no one. Discussing open-mindedly is the best approach. Being objective about all things....  Wondering.... Take Care, John H.


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## Eggs (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> Hi Bustinout. I understand that he owe noone an explanation necessarily but it IS HE who is setting himself up to tell others how.....  That is not being credible on his part in my book when he professes....



Tell others how what?  How to live their lives?  Please... every time you vote you are trying to tell people how to live their lives, every time someone runs a red light and you give them a mad look you are attempting to push guilt or anger at them because you think what they did is wrong.  So is he more wrong when he professes to be a Christian and "only" gives 10% of the money he made? How is that?  Christianity only requires a tenth... and I fully believe that Mel Gibson will give well beyond that.  However, there will be those such as yourself that will always find fault in what he is doing because you want to destroy what he is doing... in reality you could care less about the money or suffering of little children, you're simply trying to discredit him.  If you dont think so you'd best look a bit deeper into your heart.  You hate what he's saying, and you see this as an opportunity to lash out against him.  At least admit to the truth bud, we'll take what your saying alot better when you're truthful about it.



> Hollywood goes where the money is because it is a business and they are in the business of making money... I completely understand what you are saying but you and others MUST REMEMBER that the movie Mel Gibson made would NOT have been at all "popular" UNLESS he made it with almost three hours of VIOLENCE - it WAS the VIOLENCE in the movie that sold the movie NOT the Death of Christ necessarily... The movie was successful BECAUSE OF THE VIOLENCE in it. We as a people must look at this desire for violence very hard. Why is it we LOVE violence but HATE Sex - which is a NATURAL THING - portrayed?



Hollywood does go where the money is... however, in this film Mel Gibson took all the risk himself in the venture... and there was no guarantee it'd come out big.  Remember, he couldnt find investors or directors for this film because people didnt want any part of it.  Lets be realistic, if they saw that there was money to be made, they'd have jumped at hte chance.

Do you really think that the movie made it because of the violence?  That is ludicrous, people saw the movie because to them it was truthful telling of the last moments of their saviors life.  The violence certainly had something to do with it... but its not the fact that it showed Jesus being whipped countless times that moved people, it was the fact that this God become man had done so to save them.  Its a personal thing, and as a person who only wants to attack Christianity I could never expect you to understand that despite your attempts to say otherwise.

I say that this topic has pretty much been run into the ground... those that want to smach Christanity will continue to do so, because they feel the need to... those that want to defend Christianity will do so, because they have the need to.  Regardless, John... this has nothing to do with starving children, and everything to do with you having a personal problem with Christians and trying to use this as an excuse to go after them.

Well, I hope that these attacks somehow make you feel better inside, or whatever motivation truly drives them.    As to Mel, only time will tell how he uses that money.  Until then, why dont you give him the chance to do so free from criticism of people who know nothing about the situation.


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## John H. (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> You know what I have a problem with Marcus, do you lift weights man? I see your occasional posts in diet and nutrition and supplements. Are you truly a florist?  Could there not potentially be a botanical forum where you could annoy people?
> 
> This thread is and should be about Mel Gibson and the money that The Passion made, which our little buddy John thinks Mel owes to the world because he thinks that Mel should hold himself to a standard that he truly doesnt have to.
> ...


  Hi Eggs. Mel Gibson HIMSELF set HIMSELF UP as professing what others should or should not do... That then gives me the obligation to ASK "so then what are you going to do with the money you made on this story based on a portion of the Life of Christ - someone you say you follow very closely?" Here is a man who ALREADY IS WEALTHY before the movie was made. HE SET HIMSELF UP not me. I am just following through... I am not asking for myself but for those CHILDREN who ARE IN NEED and are lest able to help themselves. Mel Gibson is a father, I would think he would understand what a child needs, especially one that has no one really....  Mel Gibson SET THOSE STANDARDS you speak of. HE is the man making the statements about what others should do so I think I then have a right to ask HIM then and I am not trying to bankrupt him either. If he made a movie based on a part of the Life of Christ and he says he believes in Christ why then does he not follow through and DO what CHRIST SAID TO DO? 

I am NOT asking for A PENNY for myself or anyone who can DO for themselves. To be credible I would think Mel Gibson would DO as he SAYS he believes.... 

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> Actually this has nothing to do with Mel Gibson and his money at all. John is trying desparately to make Christians out to be hypocrites so that he can push his own agenda once he has trashed Christians as being hypocritical.
> 
> Now John will deny this, but it is definately the truth because what other purpose is there for caring about how Mel Gibson spends his money. John wants to say Mel, "and all other Christians", are hypocrites so therefore you can't believe what they say about anything. For what other purpose does John care about Mel and his money.
> ...



Hi Craig. I am not trying to making anyone anything. THEY DO THAT THEMSELVES BY THEIR ACTIONS - OR INACTION. I do not have the power to "make anyone anything" THEY DO THAT THEMSELVES. If christians are hypocrites IT IS THEIR DOING THAT MAKES THAT SO NOT ME. Their history and past and present practices prove or disprove that. Not me. 

If christians (or "religious people") set out to judge others then they set themselves up to BE judged based on THEIR ACTIONS or INACTION. They DO judge people ALL THE TIME! 

Craig, you keep bringing up that I said "Jesus never said" - I was speaking about the various Sexualities  - please re-read what I DID SAY - Christ and God NEVER said - THEMSELVES - ONE WORD - THEY NEVER DID about Heterosexuality, BiSexuality and Homosexuality. This has nothing to do with "my aggenda" at all - it has to do with what WAS OR WAS NOT SAID. If it was never stated - and IT NEVER WAS - you or I or anyone else CAN NOT CHANGE THE FACTS. How does me stating that Christ/God NEVER said make me at all hypocritical? I was making a statement of FACT. 

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> Tell others how what?  How to live their lives?  Please... every time you vote you are trying to tell people how to live their lives, every time someone runs a red light and you give them a mad look you are attempting to push guilt or anger at them because you think what they did is wrong.  So is he more wrong when he professes to be a Christian and "only" gives 10% of the money he made? How is that?  Christianity only requires a tenth... and I fully believe that Mel Gibson will give well beyond that.  However, there will be those such as yourself that will always find fault in what he is doing because you want to destroy what he is doing... in reality you could care less about the money or suffering of little children, you're simply trying to discredit him.  If you dont think so you'd best look a bit deeper into your heart.  You hate what he's saying, and you see this as an opportunity to lash out against him.  At least admit to the truth bud, we'll take what your saying alot better when you're truthful about it.
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Eggs. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is NOT ME who discredits HIM but HE does that HIMSELF by his actions or inaction. I do not have that "power". I do have a right to question someone who sets themselves up.... I do have a right to question them then because of THEIR actions.... I am not damning him at all, if that is do HE does that to HIMSELF...

As for Christianity "...only requires a tenth..." the Bible says absolutely nothing about an amount in percentages.

As for Hollywood, it IS a business and VIOLENCE - unfortunately - SELLS. Why else all the violence? Mel Gibson picked up on that for sure and it IS THE VIOLENCE in "The Passion of the Christ" that SELLS the movie. Do you honestly think that that movie would have sold even a tenth HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR THE VIOLENCE PORTRAYED? Hollywood did not want to take the gamble of portraying the violence because they feared the heat that might be caused by doing so to make a buck. But a person who professes to be Christian and believe in the Bible and Christ COULD get away with it.... And he did.... He was successful...

(I have to get back to you to finish this later)

Take Care, John H.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> You know what I have a problem with Marcus, do you lift weights man? I see your occasional posts in diet and nutrition and supplements. Are you truly a florist?  Could there not potentially be a botanical forum where you could annoy people?
> 
> This thread is and should be about Mel Gibson and the money that The Passion made, which our little buddy John thinks Mel owes to the world because he thinks that Mel should hold himself to a standard that he truly doesnt have to.
> ...




trying to look superior?  interesting comment.

mel can do whatever he wants with his money as it is his money after all.  I don't agree with John H. assessment of the situation.  

people wish to find things that annoy them.  in order to feel superior to the person who is 'annoying" them..   interesting....


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## Eggs (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> Hi Eggs. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is NOT ME who discredits HIM but HE does that HIMSELF by his actions or inaction. I do not have that "power". I do have a right to question someone who sets themselves up.... I do have a right to question them then because of THEIR actions.... I am not damning him at all, if that is do HE does that to HIMSELF...



I dont seeing him as discrediting himself, so therefore he must not have 



> As for Christianity "...only requires a tenth..." the Bible says absolutely nothing about an amount in percentages.



You need to read the bible a little more... anybody here want to venture where the word tithe comes from?



> As for Hollywood, it IS a business and VIOLENCE - unfortunately - SELLS. Why else all the violence? Mel Gibson picked up on that for sure and it IS THE VIOLENCE in "The Passion of the Christ" that SELLS the movie. Do you honestly think that that movie would have sold even a tenth HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR THE VIOLENCE PORTRAYED? Hollywood did not want to take the gamble of portraying the violence because they feared the heat that might be caused by doing so to make a buck. But a person who professes to be Christian and believe in the Bible and Christ COULD get away with it.... And he did.... He was successful...



Do you really think that the only reason he portrayed the violance that Christ suffered in the movie was to make money?  The Passion is about Christs death, and it is one of the most heart moving moment that a Christian has... because it is in that time that Christ gave his life for the lives of everyone in the world.  In that moment, he saved us.  Thats why it is such an important moment.  The violence speaks of what he endured for us.  We dont go to watch it because we get kicks off of seing Jesus die.  Anybody here get kicks out of the movie?  I think you'll find very few hands that go up.

Once again John... give the guy a chance before you criticise.  You have no basis for your criticism, because you still have no evidence one way or another what he did do with the money.  You're not willing to give him the chance though, because you do not want to see him succeed, even if it did benefit others.


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## Eggs (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> people wish to find things that annoy them.  in order to feel superior to the person who is 'annoying" them..   interesting....



Could we revise this in a memo, and perhaps work on that syntax a little bit?  I just got back from a run and I cant for the life of me figure out what exactly you are saying


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## tucker01 (Apr 15, 2004)

Why does his return to society have to be monetary?

What about the enlightenment and experience that many received from this film?

BTW I am not religous, but I do respect each persons beliefs


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> Could we revise this in a memo, and perhaps work on that syntax a little bit?  I just got back from a run and I cant for the life of me figure out what exactly you are saying




did you mean work on my syntrax?  because if that was a spelling error, then i know of someone from whom you can purchase all the syntrax products you may ever need.  

and once again, i thank you for your support. 
MM


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## craig777 (Apr 15, 2004)

Mat 19:4  And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,  


 Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?  


 Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.


I don't know, this seems crystal clear to me what Jesus thought about marriage and sexuality, but people will believe what they want to believe no matter what.


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## Flex (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> Hi Flex. I understand what you are saying.
> 
> All I am saying is that when someone sets themselves up to criticize others with regard to how they should live their lives religiously speaking and they push that on others and SAY that THEY follow every word, etc. - see what I am saying? If Mel Gibson is "so religious", and "so saved" and telling others how to live their lives from a religious standpoint don;t you think he should be the first to step up to the plate and DO HIMSELF? He says he believes in every word so if that is true then he, being a man of great wealth before the movie and now 500 million+ more, don;t you think he should at least consider the CHILDREN who are in need since he HAS more than he will ever need? How can someone live with themselves with such wealth and know there are others less fortunate and ignore them and then say they follow the teachings of the Bible and believe in Christ? I do not think you making $500 dollars - which in today's world is a small amount - can compare with a person making 500 million +. Someone with 500 million + who is already wealthy is not hurting in any way... I am speaking for the children here who are living on the edge and here is a man who professes to be so....  Many people are hypocritical at some point I guess but that does not excuse...
> ...



No, you still don't understand what i'm saying.


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## Eggs (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> did you mean work on my syntrax?  because if that was a spelling error, then i know of someone from whom you can purchase all the syntrax products you may ever need.
> 
> and once again, i thank you for your support.
> MM


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## John H. (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> Hi Eggs. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is NOT ME who discredits HIM but HE does that HIMSELF by his actions or inaction. I do not have that "power". I do have a right to question someone who sets themselves up.... I do have a right to question them then because of THEIR actions.... I am not damning him at all, if that is do HE does that to HIMSELF...
> 
> As for Christianity "...only requires a tenth..." the Bible says absolutely nothing about an amount in percentages.
> ...



(to continue) - It was not me that started all the damning or criticising or the advice on how others must lead their lives, etc. of others so I want that to be clear. I am responding to what others have done. Religious people do tend to go around telling others.... It is they who say they are so "........."  Anytime someone sets themself up as "holier than thou..." they open themselves up to questioning. I do have a right to respond to someone who would have others believe whatever...  

I could care less what people actually do or not as long as it doesn't affect me or my family or my friends in some way. I believe in living and letting live. I do not back away from those that think they have the "only answers"... and then try to tell me how I am so wrong and they are so right...

I question everything and everyone. Even myself. 

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> I dont seeing him as discrediting himself, so therefore he must not have
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Eggs.

I stand by what I said with regard to the discrediting. Anyone that sets themself up to certain standards must themselves meet those standards - I think this applies especially to those that say they are "religious" because more often than not they go around damning and criticizing others... 

I did not say it didn't say to tithe, I said it did not say the amount specifically as in 10%.... 

As for the violence, I can tell you that any movie about Christ made without the violence has not done as well historically which is probably why Hollywood did not want to do something in this regard - they are in the business of making a profit and as big as possible. He may not have intentionally put violence into the movie just to sell the movie but I am sure being an intelligent man he certainly knew violence sells. I can tell you that if Hollywood would have made this VERY SAME movie they would have been criticized TREMENDOUSLY as making a buck on Christ and his death but an individual who happens to say he is a Christian and follows the Bible and the word of Christ would certainly be less likely to experience criticism than the "Hollywood establisment"... I would be willing to bet that if the movie had been made WITHOUT the violence it would NOT have made anywhere near the bucks it made. You tell me why it is that violence seems to sell so very well. That IS a fact. Anyone in the business KNOWS that. Violence is "just fine" to protray. Sex "is dirty" (even though it is a very natural thing and in and of itself is certainly very sacred - people can make Sex "dirty" or religion can but in and of itself it is not). 

You mention I am not giving Mel Gibson a chance - well he spent a lot of time before he movie came out to sell the movie certainly to make money, why does he not also take some time to spread the wealth he made on the story he told about the Death of Christ? He would not be hurting by any stretch of the imagination by soing so. And IF he truly follows and believes in the Life of Christ and His messages. (I am NOT asking for one red cent for myself and would NEVER accept any at any time even if I personally needed it)...

As for him succeeding I think that is fine. I have nothing against people succeeding but when they tell others what they should or should not do and USE the Life of Christ to make themselves wealthier (IF this is what end up happening) then I think I have a right to criticize. 

Take Care, John H.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> You know what I have a problem with Marcus, do you lift weights man? I see your occasional posts in diet and nutrition and supplements.



i am happy to note that you checked out my profile then looked to see where my posts were located.  as for those particular threads: i won't be visiting them too often in the future.  there were too many SYNTRAX errors for my liking.    er...  syntax errors is what i meant..  either one actually or both so take your pick.


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## Eggs (Apr 15, 2004)

John - 

A tithe being a tenth is very biblical... for example:

Deuteronomy 14:22
"Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year."

Leviticus 27:32
"The entire tithe of the heard and flock - every tenth animal tht passes under the shepherds rod - will be holy to the Lord."

There are a few more cases like that when it states pretty directly what a tithe is and how it is to be used.  The concept of stewardship very much applies to tithing... so as much as we are reponsible in our daily lives for using and taking care of our money/assets/etc as best as possible, we are stewards of our tithes and are responsible to make sure that it is properly used.  Just dropping money off in a basket at any ol church isnt truly a tithe, a tither should be responsible and make sure that money is going to good causes as well.

I agree... sex is a beautiful and amazing thing.  I think the concept of sex as being "dirty" has hurt us alot, and as alcohol being considered bad hurts us, so does our considering sex to be bad.  That said, sex abused is bad.  As is alcohol when it is abused.  I agree that religion has played a huge role in that, and not necessarily for the better at all.

As to Mel, we'll see how it all works out.


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## Eggs (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> i am happy to note that you checked out my profile then looked to see where my posts were located.  as for those particular threads: i won't be visiting them too often in the future.  there were too many SYNTRAX errors for my liking.    er...  syntax errors is what i meant..  either one actually or both so take your pick.



I knew it, I so knew you abused Syntrax!


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 15, 2004)

i know,  i know,,,,, i am in a 12 step program for it right now as we speak....  the only emoticon i have memorized


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## Stickboy (Apr 15, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> I did not say it didn't say to tithe, I said it did not say the amount specifically as in 10%....




John H.,

This statement really made me laugh, I almost spat water on my screen when I read it.  The bible does say 10%, and here's why:

(You can find this, or similar definitions in the dictionary of your choice).

tithe
     n 1: a levy of one tenth of something
     2: an offering of a tenth part of some personal income
     v 1: exact a tithe from; "The church was tithed"
     2: levy a tithe on (produce or a crop); "The wool was thithed"
     3: pay one tenth of; pay tithes on, esp. to the church; "He
        tithed his income to the Church"
     4: pay a tenth of one's income, esp. to the church; "Although
        she left the church officially, she still tithes"


As you can see, the very word "tithe" means 10%.  

It would be kind of redundant to say "You should tithe.  By tithing, you should give 10%.  

That would be like saying " You should give 10%.  By giving 10%, you should give 10%".


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 15, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +*



> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> 
> as for the Bible / Heaven  itself, well, the brochure looks nice. you be sure to send us all a post card when you get there.



Case and point about being a smartass.  Never once did I bash or belittle your choice to NOT believe.  Not my place to judge.  Granted, I'm sure you have encountered Christians that have said you'll fry in hell or whatever...but I never said that so do not paint me with that same brush.  But you belittling my beliefs makes you no better than the very people you claim to despise...now who's the hypocrite?

As for the dinosours, there is plenty of thoughts on that that you can look up for yourself.   I'm not going to waste my breath on you.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 16, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "The Passion of the Christ" - 500 million +*



> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> Case and point about being a smartass.  Never once did I bash or belittle your choice to NOT believe.  Not my place to judge.  Granted, I'm sure you have encountered Christians that have said you'll fry in hell or whatever...but I never said that so do not paint me with that same brush.  But you belittling my beliefs makes you no better than the very people you claim to despise...now who's the hypocrite?
> 
> As for the dinosours, there is plenty of thoughts on that that you can look up for yourself.   I'm not going to waste my breath on you.



and once again, i thank you for your support


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 16, 2004)

over at another thread about an alleged inadequate ( for the crime )  sentence that some murderous freak received for running a person down.
i made the comment, " how about forgiving him?".  i didn't write that that choice was the one that i would make.  only Premier took notice of that to actually ask me if that is what I would choose.  NO.  
But since the majority of the very active  members here profess to be practicing if not devout Christians, able to quote Scripture in a single bound, ( superChristians no less )  i wondered if you were able to remember that fact when placed in another context.  
Forgiveness is a tenet of the Christian faith although people will now jump into this to tell me that it's not.   
I am not about forgiving when forgiving allows the offender to benefit at my expense once again.


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## Eggs (Apr 16, 2004)

Forgiveness is indeed important to Christians... regardless, society is built on justice, and justice is ingrained in the bible.  Read the old testament   In the bible, if you had an ox and it struck a man down, the first time it occured the owner could not he held to blame.  He probably had to provide for the people the worth of the person struck down, or what that person could have provided for them over a certain amount of time.  However, if it happened again, he was to be killed.  Its very much biblical.

Life is short as is, to let someone run free that blatantly disregards the existance of other... well, that would be just plain silly.  Especially when those others respect the existence of humanity.  Forgiveness is grand, but from a societal standpoint it is not always the best thing to do.  Well, you can forgive somebody and still desire them to sit in the chair.  Those two arent necessarily exculsive.


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## Stickboy (Apr 16, 2004)

Forgiveness does not equate to no justice.  Eggs made a good point here.

Forgiveness is done by the individual wronged.  Some can do it immediately, some it takes a while, and others never can.  People are flawed, we are not perfect.

Justice is metted out by society in accordance with whatever law.  Just because an individual may (eventually) forgive the murderer of his child doesn't mean society won't punish the murderer.

Could I forgive?  I'd honestly have to have it happen to me to answer the question.  I would hope that in time, I could, but I seriously doubt I could do it immediately.


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## John H. (Apr 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> Mat 19:4  And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
> 
> 
> ...


 Hi Craig. Nothing that man writes can be termed crystal clear when it comes to religion. The Mormons (Christ of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) believed in multiple wives too and I guess it was based on visions Joseph Smith said he experienced - a latter-day "prophet".  You yourself could claim to be a prophet or to have seen visions and have people follow you because they believe in what you have said even though it is long past the Death of Christ. (I am not trying to be disrespectful to anyone here just making a statement of possibility the could very well be also)... As for Christ and/or God actually saying anything regarding BiSexuality or Homosexuality They PERSONALLY (THEMSELVES) never did. Man has made statements not necessarily based on anything factual or accurate. Christ was on this earth for 32 years and had plenty of time to say something about these and never once said a word about these variations HIMSELF (variety exists in ALL things in life and living and are a natural part)...

The New Testament is written, as is the entire Bible, by Men. Over 40 and over a long period of time. The New Testament was not even written or in existance until long after the Death of Christ - perhaps 250 years or more after He died. People's "recollections" I would think as to what someone actually said can certainly be questioned as to its accuracy even one month after anything was said. That is part of the nature of human beings - they do not always get things right - that does not make it necessarily good or bad that they can be inaccurate or forget it is just part of the human experience. When you throw politics into the equation - which religion is very closely tied to and always has been -  when you consider that there are thousands of religions each with their own beliefs... What you are quoting is written by Man and given the time, place, weather, climate, conditions, politics of the time, etc. anything can be suspect. 

I feel the American Indian closer to a reality religion-speaking - it was Europeans who said they were "religious" that murdered them.

But this is getting away from my original subject of this thread. Mel Gibson made statements as to his beliefs and his purposes. I have no problem with that at all as it is a personal decision but when he would have others listen to his message and have him want others to believe and follow as he has said but then he himself does not follow through.... One of the things we are told Christ said to do was to take care of those honestly less fortunate. Mel Gibson is a man of wealth far beyond what any normal everyday person needs. Yes he is free to do with his money however he desires but when he tells others how they should or should not live, believe or not in whatever, etc. .... 

I would hope for the sake of the children of this country for example that he would remember them and find ways to help them that are less fortunate since he himself is very well off even before the making of this film. I feel the violence of the film was a selling point with many people - wish I did not have to say that but the final tally is not in yet - it was at last I heard 500 million + worldwide. For a Man who is already wealthy even before he made this film I would think as a follower and believer in Christ and the Bible he would follow through on what he is told do do by those. In the end what he does or does not is his call and he will have to answer to whatever if he is in error or if he ignores the needs of others less fortunate - at least that is what the Bible he says he believes in tells him and others who believe likewise.

Take Care, John H.


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## craig777 (Apr 16, 2004)

John,

Trying to discuss a topic with you is like trying to capture the wind, you have no idea which way it will blow next.

Have a good life John


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## John H. (Apr 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Stickboy *_
> John H.,
> 
> This statement really made me laugh, I almost spat water on my screen when I read it.  The bible does say 10%, and here's why:
> ...



 Hi Stickboy. Apparently you "got me" there but in my defense I was stating what I was told (I did not check it out myself because of the sources I used - see what happens when you do not check out your sources yourself) by a priest and some ministers that there was no specific amount really stated in the Bible. (You say your information is from the dictionary?)  I wondered this myself and instead of reading myself asked those I thought certainly would know for sure and I "just accepted" what they told me. I specifically asked if there was a mention of an amount as to tithing in the Bible and that was the answer I received but I did ask more than one religious person and was told it does not mention a specific amount or percentage. 

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> John -
> 
> A tithe being a tenth is very biblical... for example:
> ...



Hi Eggs. I did not check this out myself but asked people I thought would know for sure - a priest and several ministers. They all said there is no specific percentage or amount mentioned - given who they were I did not check out what they told me myself (see what happens when you do not do your own homework?)

In the end Mel Gibson will make his decision as he sees fit and that is fine. My argument is to all those that like to tell others how to live their lives but do not take their own advice. Also given the amount of money he must possess before the movie was made I would hope he would think of those honestly less fortunate - the children of this country - who can not help themselves. I personally could never live with myself if I was truly able to help others and did not. I do my very best everyday - honestly so.

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> i know,  i know,,,,, i am in a 12 step program for it right now as we speak....  the only emoticon i have memorized



Hi MM. Building  real muscle really helps BIGTIME!!! It allows you to really know who you are too and to feel damn good about your accomplishments. Not to mention stress-relief.... 

TDGC, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> John,
> 
> Trying to discuss a topic with you is like trying to capture the wind, you have no idea which way it will blow next.
> ...



Hi Craig. You too Buddy HONESTLY!!! I am NOT your enemy in any way whatsoever. I just believe in questioning and finding answers - hopefully as honest, sincere, accurate, complete, etc. as possible. No one will ever know it all. It can be fun learning about all things. 

I sincerely hope you will always stay with Bodybuilding - judging from the photo that accompanies your profile you have been doing a tremendous job and have tremendous further potential... 

 TDGC, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> over at another thread about an alleged inadequate ( for the crime )  sentence that some murderous freak received for running a person down.
> i made the comment, " how about forgiving him?".  i didn't write that that choice was the one that i would make.  only Premier took notice of that to actually ask me if that is what I would choose.  NO.
> But since the majority of the very active  members here profess to be practicing if not devout Christians, able to quote Scripture in a single bound, ( superChristians no less )  i wondered if you were able to remember that fact when placed in another context.
> ...



Hi MM. ABSOLUTELY right ON!!! TDGC, John H.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> Forgiveness is indeed important to Christians... regardless, society is built on justice, and justice is ingrained in the bible.  Read the old testament   In the bible, if you had an ox and it struck a man down, the first time it occured the owner could not he held to blame.  He probably had to provide for the people the worth of the person struck down, or what that person could have provided for them over a certain amount of time.  However, if it happened again, he was to be killed.  Its very much biblical.
> 
> Life is short as is, to let someone run free that blatantly disregards the existance of other... well, that would be just plain silly.  Especially when those others respect the existence of humanity.  Forgiveness is grand, but from a societal standpoint it is not always the best thing to do.  Well, you can forgive somebody and still desire them to sit in the chair.  Those two arent necessarily exculsive.



man, you people are rather foot loose and fancy free with your quotes  .  first i am to read the old testament, then told that the old testament is no longer in vogue, that the new testament is the thing du millenium and then someone goes back to quote the old testament.  

as for forgiveness;  screw me over once.   ok,,  i was stupid to assume that the person had my best interest at heart.   should i let ya back into my life thereafter, and you still screw me over again by lies, deceit or treachery then ya blew it.   there are numerous ppl in life who fail to consider the impact of their actions on others.  when the victims complain, it is always the ruthless remorseless ones who cry foul" hey what are you whining about anyway?  i said sorry didn't I?"   bunch of sicks schmucks.  

i dont know what chair you are talking about but i sure hope it has a sharp tack on it.  and is very uncomfortable.  and that someone is poking them with a stick while they sit there, uncomfortable,  in the chair on that tack..


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> over at another thread about an alleged inadequate ( for the crime )  sentence that some murderous freak received for running a person down.
> i made the comment, " how about forgiving him?".  i didn't write that that choice was the one that i would make.  only Premier took notice of that to actually ask me if that is what I would choose.  NO.
> But since the majority of the very active  members here profess to be practicing if not devout Christians, able to quote Scripture in a single bound, ( superChristians no less )  i wondered if you were able to remember that fact when placed in another context.
> ...



Bro, I saw your post...main reason I chose to ignore it.  The law is the law.  As for scripture...render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and render unto God what is God's.  The guy has a debt to society to pay.  It's not OUR forgiveness the clown needs to worry about anyway.  Sometimes forgiveness does not do away with the fact that thetr are still consequences.  Besides, he did nothing wrong to me...I got no reason to forgive him.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 17, 2004)

man, i love the way the majority of you christians always say " the guy did nothing to me so it doesn't affect me either way!"  when the nazis were into burning/gassing jews, killing homosexuals, killing artists and poets, the response from Christianity was " hey, as long as it ain't christians that all right by me!"  the RC pope at the time even gave his blessing.  
The nazis hired the head fellow from IBM ( yup, the computer company ) to come up with a way of tracking those pesky jews and other non desirables -  he came up with the idea of using the  punch card system.  he said, that it didn't affect americans at the time so, like a good christian anywhere, decided to help the nazis.  
  yup, nothing affects you until some other religion decides to launch an offensive.  Can you people who continually say " it doesn't affect me !"  not see how your blase attitude has contributed to the huge social injustices and present danger now before us?
as always, i thank you for your support


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## Eggs (Apr 17, 2004)

Haha, now that hardly deserves a response MM,  Puhhllleeeaaase


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> man, i love the way the majority of you christians always say " the guy did nothing to me so it doesn't affect me either way!"  when the nazis were into burning/gassing jews, killing homosexuals, killing artists and poets, the response from Christianity was " hey, as long as it ain't christians that all right by me!"  the RC pope at the time even gave his blessing.
> The nazis hired the head fellow from IBM ( yup, the computer company ) to come up with a way of tracking those pesky jews and other non desirables -  he came up with the idea of using the  punch card system.  he said, that it didn't affect americans at the time so, like a good christian anywhere, decided to help the nazis.
> yup, nothing affects you until some other religion decides to launch an offensive.  Can you people who continually say " it doesn't affect me !"  not see how your blase attitude has contributed to the huge social injustices and present danger now before us?
> as always, i thank you for your support



Don't even begin to compare me to a nazi you little prick.(yes a Christian calling you a prick).  I did not say it does not effect me what this guy did.  But MY forgiveness is not the forgiveness he needs.  Do not try to sound like you know crap about my beliefs.    As for launching an offensive, you would have no idea what that means...or a defensive for that matter...those are few and far between where you live.


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## John H. (Apr 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> man, i love the way the majority of you christians always say " the guy did nothing to me so it doesn't affect me either way!"  when the nazis were into burning/gassing jews, killing homosexuals, killing artists and poets, the response from Christianity was " hey, as long as it ain't christians that all right by me!"  the RC pope at the time even gave his blessing.
> The nazis hired the head fellow from IBM ( yup, the computer company ) to come up with a way of tracking those pesky jews and other non desirables -  he came up with the idea of using the  punch card system.  he said, that it didn't affect americans at the time so, like a good christian anywhere, decided to help the nazis.
> yup, nothing affects you until some other religion decides to launch an offensive.  Can you people who continually say " it doesn't affect me !"  not see how your blase attitude has contributed to the huge social injustices and present danger now before us?
> as always, i thank you for your support



Hi MM. And the American Indian and what the "christians" did to them and all in the name of "god"...  What you say has a lot of evidence to support it. No one would be able to say one thing if there was no evidence to show what you have said is absolutely true. I personally think there is a TREMENDOUS VOID between God/Christ and religion. Look at all the killing done "religion"-orientated. Look at all the hatred and the bigotry that has religion as its source and throughout time. If I had the power I would eliminate these three things from the face of the earth: religion, politics and the abuse of children in any form by anyone. This world would be far better off bigtime! Take Care, John H.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by John H. *_
> Hi MM. And the American Indian and what the "christians" did to them and all in the name of "god"...  What you say has a lot of evidence to support it. No one would be able to say one thing if there was no evidence to show what you have said is absolutely true. I personally think there is a TREMENDOUS VOID between God/Christ and religion. Look at all the killing done "religion"-orientated. Look at all the hatred and the bigotry that has religion as its source and throughout time. If I had the power I would eliminate these three things from the face of the earth: religion, politics and the abuse of children in any form by anyone. This world would be far better off bigtime! Take Care, John H.



Killing Indians in the name of God???  From what orifice are you digging this stuff up now?  We slote their land John...plain and simple.  And you are absolutely right, there is a huge void between God/Christ and religion.  That is because religion is man made.  It is mans attemt to justify himself before God.  Religion is the downfall of the relationship between man and God.  But you are not enightening us with some new revelation there either.  It is always good to remember one thing, all the crap people do in the name of religion(and there is plenty I admit), cannot be laid at God's doorstep.  It is clear what God stands for.  

You make no mention of the Christians today being killed simply because they are Christian.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 17, 2004)

there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of christians being murdered each year, over in the sudan i believe, for their beliefs.    organized religion is one of the main causes of death.    some of the people involved in whatever chosen religion  always seem to want to kill anyone else who doesn't belong to their particular group.  

as for the comment that my post doesn't need  a response,  i think that it is because there is no argument.  THIS is historical fact.  
As for the person who is concerned that i suggested that he was a nazi; your paranoia if not mania is showing.  i didn't compare you to the nazis.  try reading at a sufficent level will ya?  i said that the Catholic POPE got involved at the highest level to not do anything about the holocaust.  the pope gave his blessing.  i think that you should either double the dose of the lithium or cut the dosage of the praxil .   

Calling me a little prick-  i really have to find the woman  ( and yes, it was a woman BO, before you resort to calling me a faggot or whatever name that suits you )  that let my little secret out.  

Strange how the short name for you, BO seems to suit you.


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 17, 2004)

I'll stick with prick...it suits you man. lol


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 17, 2004)

LOL--  might as well go all out and go with little prick .


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## Eggs (Apr 18, 2004)

If thats the case, I'll take the time to respond 



> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> man, i love the way the majority of you christians always say " the guy did nothing to me so it doesn't affect me either way!"  when the nazis were into burning/gassing jews, killing homosexuals, killing artists and poets, the response from Christianity was " hey, as long as it ain't christians that all right by me!"  the RC pope at the time even gave his blessing.



Pull your head out of your ass, unless you have statistics to back up that majority claim, then its rubbish.  Its ignorant to make claims like "the majority" when you have no clue what the majority would say.  You're trying really hard to stretch the different world wars to make the US look like bad guys in it, and particularily the US Christians... stop being a chump MM.



> The nazis hired the head fellow from IBM ( yup, the computer company ) to come up with a way of tracking those pesky jews and other non desirables -  he came up with the idea of using the  punch card system.  he said, that it didn't affect americans at the time so, like a good christian anywhere, decided to help the nazis.



How do you know the head of IBM was a Christian?  Give me either a book on the subject as a referance or give me an academic web site to somebody who is not just a fruit trying to throw stones so I can verify it myself.  Yeah IBM did work with Hitler.  As far as him being a Christian, your reaching for straws... and all I see in that paragraph is you trying to slip Christianity in at the end of the argument to disredit it.  So what I'm really trying to say is, thats a worthless post by some sort of nutcase.  Ooh, that'd be you 



> yup, nothing affects you until some other religion decides to launch an offensive.  Can you people who continually say " it doesn't affect me !"  not see how your blase attitude has contributed to the huge social injustices and present danger now before us?
> as always, i thank you for your support



You'd bitch about that, and at the same time you'd no doubt bitch about anything else you could get your hands on.  What stands out to me is that you dont truly care about arguing a valid point, you just liking bitching.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 18, 2004)

if you dont know history, then i am not about to do your work for you.  at least not for free.  i charge 125.00 per hour, minimum 4 hours.  there are several books on either of these 2 subjects-  IBM and/or Catholic Christian complicity.  i will give you a freebie though. 
No where do i say that Christains caused either WW 1 or WW II.  the guy at IBM  (and a number of other American companies in fact ) decided early on that Germany was going to win that particular war.  It was purely a financial decision.  Since it didn't affect them, they decided to make money from that war.  AS America was the de facto owner of Germany at the time ( being the top creditor to the Germans )  they figured that the only way to get their money back was to finance their efforts.  

as always, glad to see that the influence of ignorance and bias doesn't cloud your strong opinions.  

when a person has nothing left with which to support his/ her position, the person resorts to tactics such as the one you are currently displaying in your last response.  

your desperate clinging to your stance is admirable.  but keep yelling, someone may indeed hear you.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> You know what I have a problem with Marcus, do you lift weights man? I see your occasional posts in diet and nutrition and supplements. Are you truly a florist?  Could there not potentially be a botanical forum where you could annoy people?



By whose criteria do YOU use in order to determine who should be able to post on which thread and who shouldn't?  i would be interested in knowing how you came to be the final arbiter on this subject.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> You know what I have a problem with Marcus, do you lift weights man?



Is this the absolute test one must pass in order to post on these boards.  By what other criteria do you use in order to discern the merits or lack thereof of a person's posts?  

If you benched more than I do, would your opinion hold court over mine?  What if I beat you at chess?


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## OceanDude (Apr 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> It was a joke, John, just a joke.



Pepper,
Whoa, I take a few months off (well maybe closer to a year) and I come back and you are a moderator!! Times are a changing apparently. But I got to know bro, are you also joking with that Kerry statement in your signature. It makes me laugh.


BTW: As as for MEL - just think about it a few secs guys. I would say about 80% of modern day writers and producers are just publishing books and movies to capitalize on the emotion or conflict dujour. Dichotomy of opinion, lifestyle or values equates to emotion and identity struggles. Identity equates to ego. Interplay them all togher and it equates to conflict - either inner, external or both. Conflict and struggle in a capitalistic society equates to money flow. MEL may be feeling good about himself for bucking the Hollywood Godfathers and making a lot of money. But MEL is not going to be big enough to redefine the whole counter culture process machine. MEL is not The Christ - he is a money changer.

-OD


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## Eggs (Apr 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> if you dont know history, then i am not about to do your work for you.  at least not for free.  i charge 125.00 per hour, minimum 4 hours.  there are several books on either of these 2 subjects-  IBM and/or Catholic Christian complicity.  i will give you a freebie though.
> No where do i say that Christains caused either WW 1 or WW II.  the guy at IBM  (and a number of other American companies in fact ) decided early on that Germany was going to win that particular war.  It was purely a financial decision.  Since it didn't affect them, they decided to make money from that war.  AS America was the de facto owner of Germany at the time ( being the top creditor to the Germans )  they figured that the only way to get their money back was to finance their efforts.



I knew about the guy from IBM and WW2.  No, you didnt say that christiants caused the war, but instead  you implied that Christians were at fault for not rushing to go to war more quickly.



> as always, glad to see that the influence of ignorance and bias doesn't cloud your strong opinions.



I have my biases... and I'm not proud of that.  But I do believe myself less biased than you are.  I didnt even grow up in the US, so my reason for backing them is purely because I find your reasoning at fault and your criticism overstated.



> when a person has nothing left with which to support his/ her position, the person resorts to tactics such as the one you are currently displaying in your last response.
> 
> your desperate clinging to your stance is admirable.  but keep yelling, someone may indeed hear you.



About you bitching?  But dear Marcus, if everyone around here notices that you bitch alot then perhaps there is some truth to it.  Rarely do you ever say "Yeah, this is great" or say something good about something... you do tend to be more the critic.

Is that why you keep yelling Marcus, you're hoping that someone will hear you and care about what you say?  Well, obviously... but do I really have to wear that hat with you?


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## Eggs (Apr 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MarcusMaximus *_
> By whose criteria do YOU use in order to determine who should be able to post on which thread and who shouldn't?  i would be interested in knowing how you came to be the final arbiter on this subject.



Oh, I was just asking to know which God I could thank that you landed on our door step


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## John H. (Apr 19, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> Killing Indians in the name of God???  From what orifice are you digging this stuff up now?  We slote their land John...plain and simple.  And you are absolutely right, there is a huge void between God/Christ and religion.  That is because religion is man made.  It is mans attemt to justify himself before God.  Religion is the downfall of the relationship between man and God.  But you are not enightening us with some new revelation there either.  It is always good to remember one thing, all the crap people do in the name of religion(and there is plenty I admit), cannot be laid at God's doorstep.  It is clear what God stands for.
> 
> You make no mention of the Christians today being killed simply because they are Christian.



Hi Bustinout. If you will study the history of the American Indian and the white man wou will see. 

Yes there is a HUGE void between God/Christ and religion(s).  The crap we speak of I am not "...(laying) at God's doorstep" at all. 

As for religion in general and no matter who's I believe based on their practices it has been the worst thing ever invented by human beings. I fully understand Man's need to find answers to the most important questions of life and living, but that endeavor must be done honestly, completely, accurately, etc. To just believe in something does not make it true or accurate or honest, etc. 

As for Christians being killed, I am very aware of that also. All religions have killed others of different beliefs throughout history.

Take Care, John H.


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## Eggs (Apr 19, 2004)

1. We didnt kill Indians in America for religion... we killed them so we could steal their land, etc.  Plus, we were probably a little afraid of them.  I'd be wary to lay that at the doorstep of religion though.  Thats just humans needing to do evil.

2.  To not believe in something does not make it any less accurate or true   You really dont have a basis for communication with BO in this, because you are resentful towards religion and do not believe that is has anything to do with God.  BO on the other hand believes Christianity to be true, and come from God.  This severely limits your ability to discuss most things, because you'll just always say things like "To just believe in something does not make it true or accurate or honest, etc."  Even though that in itself is not an argument.

3. It doesnt take religion to kill... if you look around you'll find lots of people get killed without religion.  Look at the Soviet Union and what was committed over there for example, that wasnt due to religion.  Nor are most every day crimes that are committed.  Religions has and does play a role in conflict... but if it were not religion does so something ele would take its place.

Anyways, if you are implying that there is no God... then there truly are no answers of importance for us to find.


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## John H. (Apr 20, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> 1. We didnt kill Indians in America for religion... we killed them so we could steal their land, etc.  Plus, we were probably a little afraid of them.  I'd be wary to lay that at the doorstep of religion though.  Thats just humans needing to do evil.
> 
> 2.  To not believe in something does not make it any less accurate or true   You really dont have a basis for communication with BO in this, because you are resentful towards religion and do not believe that is has anything to do with God.  BO on the other hand believes Christianity to be true, and come from God.  This severely limits your ability to discuss most things, because you'll just always say things like "To just believe in something does not make it true or accurate or honest, etc."  Even though that in itself is not an argument.
> ...



Hi Eggs,

I never said or suggested there is no God. I am saying there is a HUGE "void" and/or "difference" between God - and religion(s). Sure "religion(s)" SAY they worship God, etc.  and... BUT the ACTUALITY of what really happens... I never even implied there is no God - just about all people feel there is a "Supreme Being", "God", "something Greater", etc.  Their religious affiliation or lack thereof does not necessarily mean they do not believe in a "god"... 

The Indians were killed by some "religious types" - Indians were considered "heathens", "filthy", "primitive", "unchristian", etc. and religion was used while it may not have been stated necessarily as a "valid" reason to "get rid of them"... but the wealth the Indians were perceived to have had was the another big reason they were treated as they were in an effort to discredit them as a people or even as human beings and to gain that wealth that they possessed... The Indians felt all people should share and to respect what all were given and to understand the importance of all things...  As for some people needing to do evil that sure is very true - human beings do evil to a lot of things they love being evil...  Perhaps this is one reason violence is so prevelant say in movies - violence seems to really sell. Now if you speak about Sex (a very natural and beautiful thing mostly) we are told it is very "dirty", etc. by religion and it is damned but you will not hear much nor is much done about violence other then lip-service. 

As for accuracy and truthfulness and completeness the subject does not matter, the end result does. If religion, for example, is false, untruthful, inaccurate, etc. ... ANYTHING should always be subject to scrutiny and to questioning - even God would appreciate a human being wanting to KNOW about Him and to do that sincerely, honestly, accurately, etc. we should question the "all" - that's how we truly learn anything.... And anything truthful and accurate will stand the "test"...  Certainly religion is not the ONLY source of problems in this world but they sure can have a tremendous amount of guilt laid at their doorstep and throughout the history of the world this is so. 

Taking a very hard, close, accurate, complete, honest, sincere look at anything is very important and for any real understanding. If, say religion, has a problem(s) ignoring those or pretending they do not exist does not correct the situation or lying about any situation(s) that do exist and not correcting them does not make that "go away" or solve the source of the problem... 

Take Care, John H.


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## GFR (Oct 8, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> The movie by Mel Gibson "The Passion of the Christ" I understand is approaching the 500 million dollar mark in sales.
> 
> My question: since it cost 30 million to make, what is Mel Gibson planning to do with the profit? *Will he be Christ-like?* He says he believes in every word of the Bible and in Christ. Will he then help those who are less fortunate in this country and around the world with the profits? Will he build more churches as he has done (he has built one that cost 5 million to build before he made this film)? Or will he be more down-to-earth and Christ-like - do as Christ said to do?
> 
> John H.


Absolutely not,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,he is just one of the many fake Christians out there.


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## The Monkey Man (Oct 8, 2005)

I didn't pay to see that movie, but I would pay to see
 some intolerant bible thumpers go through a jesus-like ass kicking -


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## SuperFlex (Oct 8, 2005)

I STILL HAVEN'T READ THE MOVIE... I wish it was in freakin english! But God bless Mel Gibson!!!!!!!


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