# Glutamine



## njc (Jan 30, 2005)

I was suprised to see Glutamine haters when i discovered this board.  I had always heard only good things about it, and not just from supplement companies.


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## SlimShady (Jan 30, 2005)

I think Gopro likes it... which is good enuff reason for me to try it. Haven't been taking it long enough to form an opinion. But yeah, I've seen people knock it here.


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## gopro (Jan 31, 2005)

Many people here love it and many do not think its worth anything. I have no problem with anyone that says they feel it is worthless FOR THEM PERSONALLY, and as long as they tried it themselves and used it properly before forming their opinion. However, if they say its worthless for everyone, and/or have never even used it themselves, then they should just keep quiet.

I am a huge proponent of glutamine and use it with all of my clients.


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## musclepump (Jan 31, 2005)

I love Glut. I ingest huge amounts, but no ill effects. Love it.l


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## SlimShady (Jan 31, 2005)

gopro said:
			
		

> Many people here love it and many do not think its worth anything. I have no problem with anyone that says they feel it is worthless FOR THEM PERSONALLY, and as long as they tried it themselves and used it properly before forming their opinion. However, if they say its worthless for everyone, and/or have never even used it themselves, then they should just keep quiet.
> 
> I am a huge proponent of glutamine and use it with all of my clients.


 How much should a 150lb person take per day, and when should it be taken? I've got a big bottle of 500mg capsules and I've been taking 1 capsule, 3 times a day.


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## Robboe (Jan 31, 2005)

I'm not a glutamine hater.

I just hate unnecessary costs.


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## gopro (Jan 31, 2005)

TCD said:
			
		

> I'm not a glutamine hater.
> 
> I just hate unnecessary costs.



Only unnecesary to you. To me, its a necessity and justifies its cost...just as whey, creatine, vitamin C, a multivitamin, and my BCAAs do.


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## gopro (Jan 31, 2005)

SlimShady said:
			
		

> How much should a 150lb person take per day, and when should it be taken? I've got a big bottle of 500mg capsules and I've been taking 1 capsule, 3 times a day.



Thats FAR too little to see/feel any appreciable effects. That is only 1.5 g per day total. You will need 10 x that amount. You are better off with the powdered versions.


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## SlimShady (Jan 31, 2005)

Ok then, when I buy some supps next week, I will grab some powered glutamine. How much per day and when? Mix it in the protein shake? I think I have 200 of these caps.. I suppose I could break them all open and dump the powder into a bottle.


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## crazy_enough (Jan 31, 2005)

SlimShady said:
			
		

> Ok then, when I buy some supps next week, I will grab some powered glutamine. How much per day and when? Mix it in the protein shake? I think I have 200 of these caps.. I suppose I could break them all open and dump the powder into a bottle.


the only time u should mix em with ur shake, is if u decide to purchase glutamine peptides. Otherwise, with L glut, absorbtion is far from maximal when ingested with food. I ahd to fix that in my supplementation a few weeks back...


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## redspy (Jan 31, 2005)

Glutamine is a waste of time IMO. The vast majority of clinical studies report no boost in athletic performance. It may help your immune system if you're overtraining though. Most of the glutamine you ingest is destroyed in the stomach.

Here's an example of one study:-



> *Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults.
> 
> Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T.*
> 
> ...


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## redspy (Jan 31, 2005)

*Should I Spend my Hard-Earned Money on Glutamine or Hookers?*

*Q:* In a recent T-mag article, glutamine was described as pretty much worthless if you're already taking care of protein and post-workout protein/carb/amino needs. What's your opinion? Is glutamine overrated? 

*A:* Well, for starters, glutamine is the most abundant free amino acid???
Aww hell; I'm not going start my response off with the standard opening line that just about everyone uses to indirectly affix grandiose importance to this amino acid! Sure, it's conditionally essential (meaning that although it's not absolutely necessary in the diet, our requirements for glutamine can exceed our production of it in certain conditions).

Yes, it makes up 2/3 of the muscle's free amino acid pool (which is a pretty damn small part of the muscle's total amino acid content anyway) and sure, glutamine has been shown to have some pretty amazing benefits in wasting conditions, postoperative patients, and in TPN (total parenteral nutrition).

But as bodybuilding/fitness writers, it's about time we put aside this useless trivia and discuss the utility of glutamine supplementation for athletes, weight lifters, etc. A few years ago there were no data and therefore we could speculate all we wanted about the theoretical potential of glutamine supplementation. But nowadays, we've got the data and the data demonstrate that our theories may have been wrong. 

To this end, I applaud my good friend David Barr on his excellent articles (Glutamine ??? Destroying the Dogma Part I and Part II) that revealed that despite all the conjecture about how glutamine supplementation may help increase muscle mass, muscle strength, and prevent overtraining, each and every research investigation examining the effects of glutamine supplementation on exercise performance, body composition, and protein degradation has shown that it offers no benefit. Because of the great job that Dave did in his literature review, I certainly don't have to provide a reference list ??? they're all right there at the end of his article.

To reiterate a few of the key points that Dave brought up in his article and that I brought up at the SWIS seminar:

??? A high protein diet provides a big whack of glutamine as it is. In fact, if you follow standard bodybuilding protein recommendations, about 10% of your total dietary protein intake is composed of glutamine (milk proteins are composed of somewhere between 3 ??? 10% glutamine while meat is composed of about 15% glutamine). This means that a high protein diet (400g/day) already provides me with about 40g of glutamine. 

??? While the theorists still cling to the idea that since glutamine helps clinical stress, it might help with exercise stress, it???s important to note that exercise stress has got nothin??? on surgery, cancer, sepsis, burns, etc. For example, when compared with downhill running or weight lifting, urinary nitrogen loss is 15x (1400%) greater in minor surgery, 25x (2400%) greater in major surgery, and 33x (3200%) greater in sepsis. When it comes to the immune response, it???s about 9x (800%) greater with surgery. When it comes to metabolic increase, it???s 7x (600%) greater with burn injury, and when it comes to creatine kinase release; it???s about 2x (100%) greater with surgery. As I said, exercise has got nothin??? on real, clinical stress. It???s like trying to compare the damage inflicted by a peashooter and that inflicted by a rocket launcher.

??? The major studies examining glutamine supplementation in otherwise healthy weightlifters have shown no effect. In the study by Candow et al (2001), 0.9g of supplemental glutamine/kg/day had no impact on muscle performance, body composition, and protein degradation. Folks, that's 90g per day for some lifters.

??? The majority of the studies using glutamine supplementation in endurance athletes have shown little to no measurable benefit on performance or immune function. 

??? And with respect to glycogen replenishment in endurance athletes, it's interesting to note that the first study that looked at glycogen resynthesis using glutamine missed a couple of things. Basically, the study showed that after a few glycogen depleting hours of cycling at a high percentage of VO2 max interspersed with very intense cycle sprints that were supramaximal, a drink containing 8g of glutamine replenished glycogen to the same extent as a drink containing 61g of carbohydrate. 

The problem was that during the recovery period, a constant IV infusion of labeled glucose was given (i.e., a little bit of glucose was given to both groups by IV infusion). While this isn't too big of a deal on its own since the infusion only provided a couple of grams of glucose, the other problem is that during glycogen depleting exercise, a lot of alanine, lactate, and other gluconeogenic precursors are released from the muscle. 

What this means is that there's a good amount of glucose that will be formed after such exercise, glucose that will be made in the liver from the gluconeogenic precursors and that will travel to the muscle to replenish glycogen. Therefore, without a placebo group that receives no calories, carbohydrates, or glutamine, we have no idea of knowing whether or not the placebo would have generated the same amount of glycogen replenishment as the glutamine group or the glutamine plus carbohydrate group. To say it another way, perhaps there's a normal glycogen replenishment curve that was unaffected by any of the treatments. 

??? And finally, with respect to the claims that glutamine might increase cell swelling/volume (something I once believed was a reality), we decided to test this theory out in our lab using multifrequency bioelectric impedance analysis as well as magnetic resonance spectroscopy. The pilot data that's kicking around has demonstrated that glutamine supplementation has no effect on total body water, intracellular fluid volumes, or extracellular fluid volumes (as measured by mBIA) and has no effect on muscle volume (as measured by nMRS).
​Therefore, at the present time, I think it's safe to conclude that glutamine supplementation probably offers little to no benefit with respect to athletic performance or body composition when given to well-fed, healthy athletes. But I don't want to totally burst anyone's little glutamine bubble. After all, I'm not saying that glutamine supplementation is totally worthless. As Dave Barr pointed out in his article, there may be some circumstances in which glutamine supplementation is of benefit. Here are some of them:

??? Steroid users who are improperly coming off a cycle might need some. When coming off a steroid cycle, blood Testosterone concentrations are dismally low while cortisol levels become quite elevated. If said steroid user continues training (which he/she must to try to preserve their muscle mass), the catabolic stimulation might be significant. It still doesn't approach clinical catabolism but it may just become bad enough that some extra glutamine might help. This is just a guess, however.

??? When trying to get really lean, many bodybuilders restrict energy intake and increase exercise volume and might need some glutamine. This type of energy deficit may signal the body to begin using protein as an energy source, cutting into valuable muscle resources. In addition this catabolic stimulus will be compounded by the exercise stress and may lead to excess catabolism. Perhaps glutamine may help out in these scenarios. Again, a guess.

??? In elite endurance athletes training intensely 2 or 3 times in a given day, I might prescribe some. Although I rarely recommend glutamine to my clients, my elite cross country skiers are encouraged to take it mostly during their trips to altitude camp and for glacier training. These athletes train 2-3 times per day for a week or two at a time while living in tents on a glacier at altitude. Add on the fact that nutrition on such excursions is bare bones, so that's some stress that glutamine might help with.

??? When injured and trying to prevent wasting or facilitate wound/soft tissue injury, take some. Williams et al (2002) demonstrated that daily supplementation with 3g of HMB, 14g of glutamine, and 14g of arginine can lead to increased wound healing.
​So when all is said and done, I pretty much agree with Dave's appraisal of the value of glutamine supplementation for well-fed weightlifters and bodybuilders. Considering how much protein most bodybuilders consume, additional glutamine supplementation are probably worthless. However, like any other question, there isn't a black and white answer. There do remain a few situations, as discussed above, that glutamine might be a supplement to consider. Personally, I only prescribe it to my skiers during altitude and glacier training, to steroid users coming "off," to bodybuilders during the last few weeks of competition dieting, and to people who are injured and trying hard to recover. And, of course, to those with legitimate wasting conditions. If you don't fall into any of these categories, spend your money on more groceries.

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/qa/afc/afc_nov082002.htm


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## SlimShady (Jan 31, 2005)

redspy said:
			
		

> receive either glutamine (0.9 g x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 17)


 I wonder what amount that computes out as per day?? ... Did they take as much as GoPro recommends? ... I'm no math wiz, so forgive me. 

 Plus, the people in the study were aged 18-24... and I wonder if they were just random test subjects or if they had been consistently working out. Regardless of the conclusion, the study does show more gains by the people who took glutamine, even if those gains were small. You gotta remember, these people weren't locked up all six weeks and there is no telling what kind of diet plan they were on (if any at all) nor the intensity of the workouts. I'm 43 years old now, I can use all the help I can get. Even if it costs me $20 to grow an extra 2% in 6 weeks.. I don't care.  And I don't mind trying stuff... Gropro likes glutamine, so I'm gonna give it a shot.


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## redspy (Jan 31, 2005)

SlimShady said:
			
		

> I wonder what amount that computes out as per day?? ... Did they take as much as GoPro recommends? ... I'm no math wiz, so forgive me.
> 
> Plus, the people in the study were aged 18-24... and I wonder if they were just random test subjects or if they had been consistently working out. Regardless of the conclusion, the study does show more gains by the people who took glutamine, even if those gains were small. You gotta remember, these people weren't locked up all six weeks and there is no telling what kind of diet plan they were on (if any at all) nor the intensity of the workouts. I'm 43 years old now, I can use all the help I can get. Even if it costs me $20 to grow an extra 2% in 6 weeks.. I don't care. And I don't mind trying stuff... Gropro likes glutamine, so I'm gonna give it a shot.


Regarding doses see this extract from my second post:-



> In the study by Candow et al (2001), 0.9g of supplemental glutamine/kg/day had no impact on muscle performance, body composition, and protein degradation. Folks, that's 90g per day for some lifters.


If you feel it will give you an extra 2% go ahead.  I'm not telling you it won't have any effect, I'm merely pointing out the majority of scientific study suggests it's not worth it.  When a number of randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind clinicals prove otherwise I'll take it.


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## Tha Don (Jan 31, 2005)

SlimShady said:
			
		

> How much should a 150lb person take per day, and when should it be taken? I've got a big bottle of 500mg capsules and I've been taking 1 capsule, 3 times a day.



recommended dose is 15-20g a day, your taking 1.5g a day! 

them caps are a f'ing rip off man! get the powder.. its dirt cheap if you know where to find it


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## redspy (Jan 31, 2005)

*Glutamine is Worthless* - http://www.fitnessgeared.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5691

I guess I'll be called a 'Glutamine Hater" from here on out...


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## BRW (Jan 31, 2005)

I'm with SlimShady.

i'm 40 & have used Glutamine in the past with no real results i could see but there may have been some changes i wasn't aware of.

i found when cutting & drop my carbs i find it a lot easier when using Glutamine as it decreases my cravings for carbs but *only* if i keep the dose fairly high (50-60 grams a day)

less than that i actually think it increases it  so it's definitely a seasonal thing due to the cost!!
it's *VERY* expensive here in Australia.

i also do feel fuller in the muscle. i experimented with this while trying to justify the cost of it.

i usually flatten out when i drop my carb intake so this is a *must have* while cutting. i hate that small, flat feeling.


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## Robboe (Jan 31, 2005)

Redspy, I wouldn't bother.


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## SlimShady (Jan 31, 2005)

redspy said:
			
		

> Regarding doses see this extract from my second post:-
> 
> 
> If you feel it will give you an extra 2% go ahead. I'm not telling you it won't have any effect, I'm merely pointing out the majority of scientific study suggests it's not worth it. When a number of randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind clinicals prove otherwise I'll take it.


 Hey Redspy, I see your point and I do appreciate your advice. I don't want to give you the wrong idea that I discount what you say. . I'm just more willing to take a guy like Gropro's advice over the studies. If he says it works for him, I'm willing to try it. He isn't selling it, so he has nothing to gain... plus, he has tried in real world situations with clients. . It would be the same if you posted that you tried it and it worked, that would mean more to me than a study.  Heck, I am willling to blow $20 and give it a shot. I might be a sucker, but at this point I am willing to try about anything.  At least I don't drink or gamble....lol


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## redspy (Jan 31, 2005)

SlimShady said:
			
		

> Hey Redspy, I see your point and I do appreciate your advice. I don't want to give you the wrong idea that I discount what you say. . I'm just more willing to take a guy like Gropro's advice over the studies. If he says it works for him, I'm willing to try it. He isn't selling it, so he has nothing to gain... plus, he has tried in real world situations with clients. . It would be the same if you posted that you tried it and it worked, that would mean more to me than a study. Heck, I am willling to blow $20 and give it a shot. I might be a sucker, but at this point I am willing to try about anything. At least I don't drink or gamble....lol


No sweat bro, if you think it's worth a trial go for it.  I'm just sharing some scientific data and my personal experience.  What people do with their hard earned money is up to them.


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## gopro (Jan 31, 2005)

SlimShady said:
			
		

> Hey Redspy, I see your point and I do appreciate your advice. I don't want to give you the wrong idea that I discount what you say. . I'm just more willing to take a guy like Gropro's advice over the studies. If he says it works for him, I'm willing to try it. He isn't selling it, so he has nothing to gain... plus, he has tried in real world situations with clients. . It would be the same if you posted that you tried it and it worked, that would mean more to me than a study.  Heck, I am willling to blow $20 and give it a shot. I might be a sucker, but at this point I am willing to try about anything.  At least I don't drink or gamble....lol



To be a little more accurate I just want you to know that the company that I work for...VPX...DOES sell glutamine. However, while this is the brand that I use now, I have used all major brands with success and invite you to pick a brand that has a good price for you. As long as it is not some "fly-by-night" company, than the quality of most L-glutamine's will be similar.

Thanks for your confidence in me. While studies can be extremely important, they are not the end-all-be-all and often do not reflect what happens in the real world. I have built my physique from 125 to well over 250 lbs using nothing more than hard training, proper diet, and a few supplements...glutamine has been one of them, and always will.

As far as the caps you have, you will need 10 at a time, and 3 times per day for a decent effect. Next time get the powder and it will be easier and more economical. Also, use it on an empty stomach and not with other proteins.


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## Reignman35 (Jan 31, 2005)

When it comes to glutamine, I think some people are mistakenly looking for a "seat of the pants" feel when they take it. They are looking for pumps or some really noticeable sign, but I think it is more subtle than that. On the research that I have done and read on it, and something I haven't seen mentioned much on this topic is some of the other ways glutamine helps out. For one, it is supposed to aid in what they call "gut integrity," meaning that with all the food and other supplements we lifters shove down our throats, glut helps to keep digestion and the other mechanisms running smoothly. Two, it is also supposed to help with immune system function, just like vit C and E and the like. I find that when I take the stuff regularly, which I have for over a year now, any colds and things I get never really set in at full strength. And, the glut also seems to help keep my muscle soreness down, so that seems to be a benefit. So if redspy is on the glut-hater side, I would definitely be on the lover side...


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## redspy (Jan 31, 2005)

Reignman35 said:
			
		

> When it comes to glutamine, I think some people are mistakenly looking for a "seat of the pants" feel when they take it. They are looking for pumps or some really noticeable sign, but I think it is more subtle than that. On the research that I have done and read on it, and something I haven't seen mentioned much on this topic is some of the other ways glutamine helps out. For one, it is supposed to aid in what they call "gut integrity," meaning that with all the food and other supplements we lifters shove down our throats, glut helps to keep digestion and the other mechanisms running smoothly. Two, it is also supposed to help with immune system function, just like vit C and E and the like. I find that when I take the stuff regularly, which I have for over a year now, any colds and things I get never really set in at full strength. And, the glut also seems to help keep my muscle soreness down, so that seems to be a benefit. So if redspy is on the glut-hater side, I would definitely be on the lover side...


I touched on some of the GI/immunity benefits you refer to last year - see this post http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showpost.php?p=762855&postcount=26


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## juggernaut (Jan 31, 2005)

I only had noticeable results with glutamine during the last month of my contest. I used  it to keep the immune system (during overtraining) mainly and it also helped for the obvious reasons. Other than that, glut didnt do a damn thing.


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## Reignman35 (Jan 31, 2005)

redspy said:
			
		

> I touched on some of the GI/immunity benefits you refer to last year - see this post http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showpost.php?p=762855&postcount=26


Cool.  I stand corrected.  I had not done a serious glutamine search on this board, I was just referring to the recent stuff I had seen.


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## Reignman35 (Jan 31, 2005)

BTW, if anybody is in fact looking for a cheap source, I take Optimum's glut that comes in a 1000 gram tub for only around 40 bucks. I take 5-10 grams a day depending on workout or off days, and the tub lasts around 5-6 months. Even if it JUST helps with your intestinal tract or what not and immune system it seems to me like a good benefit for only two Andrew Jackson's.


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## SlimShady (Jan 31, 2005)

crazy_enough said:
			
		

> the only time u should mix em with ur shake, is if u decide to purchase glutamine peptides. Otherwise, with L glut, absorbtion is far from maximal when ingested with food. I ahd to fix that in my supplementation a few weeks back...


 Hey thanks for the info. I didn't mean to seem as if I was ignoring your post, I was just caught up in the debate. What brand of glutamine are you using? Do you think it has worked?



			
				young d said:
			
		

> them caps are a f'ing rip off man! get the powder.. its dirt cheap if you know where to find it


 Yup.. I only paid $10 for the caps, so it didn't break me, but I gotta get powder now.


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## PreMier (Jan 31, 2005)

TCD said:
			
		

> Redspy, I wouldn't bother.



Exactly.  You can post all the studies ever done, but no one will listen to you.  Then a few weeks later, they will post a thread stating that it isnt working   Thats when you can rub it in.


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## gopro (Jan 31, 2005)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Exactly.  You can post all the studies ever done, but no one will listen to you.  Then a few weeks later, they will post a thread stating that it isnt working   Thats when you can rub it in.



The problem is that those that don't believe in glutamine continue to ignore those that use it and can attest to its positive effects.


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## PreMier (Jan 31, 2005)

gopro said:
			
		

> The problem is that those that don't believe in glutamine continue to ignore those that use it and can attest to its positive effects.



Well, it goes back to the age old question of "how does one define recovery?".  Thats what glutamine is supposed to do, right?  Help one _recover_?  It doesnt matter what they think, because there really is no way of proving it effective.. and someone saying "I feel it makes me less sore" isnt enough for me.

This is a useless debate, so whatever.  I wont waste my money, or lose any sleep over those that do.


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## gopro (Jan 31, 2005)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Well, it goes back to the age old question of "how does one define recovery?".  Thats what glutamine is supposed to do, right?  Help one _recover_?  It doesnt matter what they think, because there really is no way of proving it effective.. and someone saying "I feel it makes me less sore" isnt enough for me.
> 
> This is a useless debate, so whatever.  I wont waste my money, or lose any sleep over those that do.



Yes, it is a useless debate...and the only ones that I really need to worry about taking glutamine are myself and those that pay me to make them the best they can be.


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## redspy (Jan 31, 2005)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Well, it goes back to the age old question of "how does one define recovery?". Thats what glutamine is supposed to do, right? Help one _recover_? It doesnt matter what they think, because there really is no way of proving it effective.. and someone saying "I feel it makes me less sore" isnt enough for me.
> 
> This is a useless debate, so whatever. I wont waste my money, or lose any sleep over those that do.


If I consumed high doses of glutamine ED my mind would invent a placebo effect to justify the expenditure too


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## PreMier (Jan 31, 2005)




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## Robboe (Feb 1, 2005)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Exactly.  You can post all the studies ever done, but no one will listen to you.  Then a few weeks later, they will post a thread stating that it isnt working   Thats when you can rub it in.



lol. Is a small fraction of you congregating elsewher to discuss funnier replies to glutamine threads than I can muster?


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## FishOrCutBait (Feb 1, 2005)

i like glutamine... It makes my shakes foamy... lol, i screwed up, i need to be taking it by itself... I got the L form... dang... 

DANCE BANANA!! DANCE!!


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## SlimShady (Feb 1, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> DANCE BANANA!! DANCE!!


 hehe hehe.. snicker, snicker


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## njc (Feb 1, 2005)

FishOrCutBait said:
			
		

> i like glutamine... It makes my shakes foamy... lol, i screwed up, i need to be taking it by itself... I got the L form... dang...
> 
> DANCE BANANA!! DANCE!!


what kind of Glutamine do i take?  whats the differences? Theres kinds u take with food and kinds u take w out?


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## njc (Feb 1, 2005)

gopro said:
			
		

> Yes, it is a useless debate...and the only ones that I really need to worry about taking glutamine are myself and those that pay me to make them the best they can be.


If this debate is useless then so is every other one on this board.


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## PreMier (Feb 1, 2005)

njc said:
			
		

> If this debate is useless then so is every other one on this board.



Its because its been debated to death.. Thats why its useless.. and the fact that people will listen to placebo, and not science.  Do you know why YOU take glutamine?  Can you provide any evidence of a benefit, other than gopro says so?


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## gopro (Feb 1, 2005)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Its because its been debated to death.. Thats why its useless.. and the fact that people will listen to placebo, and not science.  Do you know why YOU take glutamine?  Can you provide any evidence of a benefit, other than gopro says so?



Just want to make something clear. I do not rely on ANY supplement that I have not tested in a scientific manner. I have tested glutamine on myself and about half a dozen clients, controlling all factors possible...diet, training, other supplementation, etc. Over periods of 12 weeks there were measurable differences in each person I tested, including myself, in how much muscle was gained over that period vs a period without glutamine. There were also differences in bodyfat lost during cutting phases...and in a longer test, using myself and my training partner, which we did over two winters, there was also a marked difference in immunity from illness, translating to less lost time in the gym.

I don't just "think" glutamine works, I have proven to myself and to others that I've worked with. I have done the same types of tests with about 15 other supplements as well.

Done.


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## PreMier (Feb 1, 2005)

Gopro says so 

Gotta love the lemmings.


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## gopro (Feb 1, 2005)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Gopro says so
> 
> Gotta love the lemmings.



Yeah, whatever. I have earned my reputation. People take me at my word for a reason.


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## PreMier (Feb 1, 2005)

Thats nice.. Maybe even more would listen to you, if so many of your posts didnt drip arrogance.



			
				gopro said:
			
		

> Just want to make something clear. I do not rely on ANY supplement that I have not tested in a scientific manner. I have tested glutamine on myself and about half a dozen clients, controlling all factors possible...diet, training, other supplementation, etc. Over periods of 12 weeks there were measurable differences in each person I tested, including myself, in how much muscle was gained over that period vs a period without glutamine. There were also differences in bodyfat lost during cutting phases...and in a longer test, using myself and my training partner, which we did over two winters, there was also a marked difference in immunity from illness, translating to less lost time in the gym.
> 
> I don't just "think" glutamine works, I have proven to myself and to others that I've worked with. I have done the same types of tests with about 15 other supplements as well.
> 
> Done.



Some questions.  
These same people that took glutamine.  Was it at the begining of their training?  Or were they 'seasoned'?  Did you use glutamine in the 12 week study first, or after the 'non using' 12 weeks?

The winters study is flawed, there are too many variables.  Some years I never get sick, and others I get sick 3-4 times.  You cant base this on glutamine use IMO


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## gopro (Feb 1, 2005)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Thats nice.. Maybe even more would listen to you, if so many of your posts didnt drip arrogance.



That might actually be one of the most idiotic things you have ever said on here...and since you have said so many idiotic things, that is saying quite a bit. Accomplish more than just having a big MOUTH and maybe that will lend more credence to anything that YOU say.

Arrogance is the farthest thing from my personality. Try to stop letting it bother you so much that I have such a following on here. Because jealousy is an even more evil trait than arrogance.


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## SlimShady (Feb 1, 2005)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Gopro says so
> 
> Gotta love the lemmings.


 In 1982, I weighed 145lbs. I needed to get down to 110lbs in order to compete in a sport. I used the Atkins diet to accomplish that goal and competed as a professional athlete for two years in that weight class. I made a decent living during that time. 

 At that time, scientific studies showed that the Atkins diet did not work. Not only did they claim it didn't work, they actually went as far as to say it was dangerous. It was a good thing I hadn't read those studies. I'd learned about the diet from a friend who had used it to lose weight. 

 I'm not discounting the value of studies. Nor am I claiming that glutamine works. I'm only pointing out that studies have been wrong in the past. Science is always changing. Sometimes it's worth risking $20 on a friend's word. That money I risked on the Atkins diet in 1982 is still paying off for me today, cause the connections I made back then enabled me to become a sports agent today. If that makes me a lemming, then so be it.


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## PreMier (Feb 1, 2005)

gopro said:
			
		

> That might actually be one of the most idiotic things you have ever said on here...and since you have said so many idiotic things, that is saying quite a bit. Accomplish more than just having a big MOUTH and maybe that will lend more credence to anything that YOU say.
> 
> Arrogance is the farthest thing from my personality. Try to stop letting it bother you so much that I have such a following on here. Because jealousy is an even more evil trait than arrogance.



Mwa jealous of you!?  Bwahahaha  Dont flatter yourself.  You have accomplished NOTHING that I want.  Nothing.  You just dont get it.

Yup, Im an idiot.  What have I posted idiotic?  That you cant build your upper chest?  Or that glutamine is pretty much worthless?  Please, enlighten me..

One thing I will also point out, is that I'm constantly learning.. and this site has helped me a lot.


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## gopro (Feb 1, 2005)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Mwa jealous of you!?  Bwahahaha  Dont flatter yourself.  You have accomplished NOTHING that I want.  Nothing.  You just dont get it.
> 
> Yup, Im an idiot.  What have I posted idiotic?  That you cant build your upper chest?  Or that glutamine is pretty much worthless?  Please, enlighten me..



Listen, you are a person that believes he has real knowledge in a subject that you are relatively clueless. I know a little about fixing cars, but would never claim to know as much as someone that has spent their life doing it, and has become an expert in the field. 

I posted above regading glutamine and the tests that I have done on it, and instead of you coming back and saying...well, ok, maybe you did that and it worked for you and your clients, but I choose to believe the studies I have read, that would have been reasonable. But instead, you went the idiotic route.

I am sorry that I called you jealous of me. I was under the false impression that it is your goal to add serious amount of muscle to your body, but perhaps I was wrong. Maybe you are just in this for general health or to tome up, which is cool too. 

But really, it does seem to bother you that people listen to me and take me at my word...but again, I reiterate, that I have earned that type of respect (thankfully) because I produce results for everyone that works with me. And results are what have true meaning in the real world.

Well, whatever...lets just squash this now before it gets ugly.


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## gopro (Feb 1, 2005)

SlimShady said:
			
		

> In 1982, I weighed 145lbs. I needed to get down to 110lbs in order to compete in a sport. I used the Atkins diet to accomplish that goal and competed as a professional athlete for two years in that weight class. I made a decent living during that time.
> 
> At that time, scientific studies showed that the Atkins diet did not work. Not only did they claim it didn't work, they actually went as far as to say it was dangerous. It was a good thing I hadn't read those studies. I'd learned about the diet from a friend who had used it to lose weight.
> 
> I'm not discounting the value of studies. Nor am I claiming that glutamine works. I'm only pointing out that studies have been wrong in the past. Science is always changing. Sometimes it's worth risking $20 on a friend's word. That money I risked on the Atkins diet in 1982 is still paying off for me today, cause the connections I made back then enabled me to become a sports agent today. If that makes me a lemming, then so be it.



Correct...studies are not only proven wrong every day, but they are often also biased, skewed, and not replicable. Way too much inconsistencies for me much of the time. This is what leads me to do studies of my own where I can be in better control of the subjects...who they are, what their goals are, and what they do. I will then combine real world results with the studies I have read and come to a conclusion.

Years ago I did a study with clients using HMB when it was the "new thing." It failed as a supplement with all but one of my subjects, who was a top level athlete on a training regimen that would kill most people. Thus it has little application with 99.9% of the population that trains.

Steroids were once said to be useless for building muscles by scientists...boy, did they get THAT one right


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## PreMier (Feb 1, 2005)

Wow.. because I have a difference of opinion with you on certian subjects, that means that I am 'jealous' or I 'envy' you?  Please.. just because I dont agree with you on certian things, doesnt mean I want to be you, or that I'm jealous. 



> I posted above regading glutamine and the tests that I have done on it, and instead of you coming back and saying...well, ok, maybe you did that and it worked for you and your clients, but I choose to believe the studies I have read, that would have been reasonable. But instead, you went the idiotic route.



Idiotic route?  I ASKED you some questions regarding your 'study'.  How is asking questions idiotic?  I truly would like to know.  Or did you even make not of any of your 'studies'?


As for studies.. you are both talking about studies that are OLD.  Do you have any that have been done in the last 5-10 years, and been disproved?  My reasoning is that science has made leaps and bounds since 1982(atkins) and whenever they thought steroids wouldnt build muscle.


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## gopro (Feb 1, 2005)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Thats nice.. Maybe even more would listen to you, if so many of your posts didnt drip arrogance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I apologize...I actually missed this post.

I did the glutamine study on serious, seasoned trainees.

I used no glutamine in the first 12 weeks, and then used it for the second 12 weeks. Diet exactly the same...supplements the same...training the same.

The winter study was not flawed only because I have suffered from chronic illnesses, as did my partner, every winter of my life, from childhood to adulthood. Glutamine has removed this problem entirely and was the initial reason I started taking it.


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## PreMier (Feb 1, 2005)

Thanks.


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## redspy (Feb 1, 2005)

Gopro


I just want to make a couple of final points here. The Steroid studies you referred to were heavily politicized. They also lacked the rigorous scientific techniques of today. That really isn't a fair comparison with modern glutamine studies. With regard to HMB the scientific 'buzz' is often a result of in-house clinical studies (I use the term loosely) conducted by supplement manufacturers, who obviously have a vested interest in the outcome and this influences the study design and execution. If these clinical studies were objectively run using the 'gold standard' of randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind clinicals they would have more credibility. In addition to supplement manufacturer bias we have bodybuilding magazines ramping up the hype to ensure higher ad sales from said supplement companies.

Science isn't perfect, but you shouldn't automatically dismiss it just because it goes against your personal views. As an example would you take drugs prescribed by your doctor with no clinical trials behind them? I doubt it.

I'm not trying to start a fight here, I have the greatest respect for you and your training accomplishments. You are one of the most knowledgeable mods here, but personally I have greater confidence in 'randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind clinicals' than your personal "studies".

That said, I've posted more than enough on this topic and it's up to the good people on IM to make up their own mind.


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## gopro (Feb 2, 2005)

redspy said:
			
		

> Gopro
> 
> 
> I just want to make a couple of final points here. The Steroid studies you referred to were heavily politicized. They also lacked the rigorous scientific techniques of today. That really isn't a fair comparison with modern glutamine studies. With regard to HMB the scientific 'buzz' is often a result of in-house clinical studies (I use the term loosely) conducted by supplement manufacturers, who obviously have a vested interest in the outcome and this influences the study design and execution. If these clinical studies were objectively run using the 'gold standard' of randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind clinicals they would have more credibility. In addition to supplement manufacturer bias we have bodybuilding magazines ramping up the hype to ensure higher ad sales from said supplement companies.
> ...



I understand your points redspy, and appreciate what you have to say, but it doesn't really change things. Just the way that the steroid studies were outdated, the "modern" studies done on glutamine (and not all are negative by the way) might end up outdated and proved wrong 10 years from now. Just as athletes 20 years ago ignored the scientists and used steroids anyway, because they knew better, the same could end up being said about glutamine in the future. There are hundreds of thousands of people that use, and swear by glutamine, and I'm sorry...they are not all experiencing placebo effect. I KNOW I am not. I also know and have conversed with about a dozen, at least, strength/athletic/bodybuilding coaches, that train world class athletes that HEAVILY use glutamine with their clientele, and consider it one of our most important supplements.

I never said that I dismiss science at all...I take it all into account...however, if I experience things over and over again in the "trenches" that go against what the scientific literature says, I am going to have to believe what my senses show me. And as far as science has come, there is still TONS of things that are going on with the human body that have not even been "officially discovered" as of yet, but they are happening everyday.

If you do not consider "my studies" and my experience with training bodybuilders, athletes, teens, the elderly, the injured, etc, etc, for the past 16 years enough to trust what I say about a training technique, diet recommendation, or supplement, that is cool with me. You are not a client of mine, and thus I do not have a personal responsibility in your progress. You are an intelligent person, and thus have the right to make your own decision on what you deem best for yourself. And I have no problem with someone saying..."hey, I see what you are saying GP, but I tried glutamine (or whatever) for 8 weeks and it truthfully did nothing for me..." Heck, there are some guys that took M 1-T and gained 15 lbs in 15 days, and others that gained the big zero...not everything works for everyone exactly the same. That said, I DO have a problem with people that say..."dude, you are laughable if you really think glutamine is doing something for your muscle growth...everyone that is using it is only getting a placebo effect and is wasting their money..." THAT is an arrogant statement, and is literally insulting the intelligence, experience, and education of thousands upon thousands of people...some of which who are/train regional, national, college, and pro athletes.

Anyway, thats all I have to say...hopefully this will be done for a while. Use glutamine...don't use it...thats your personal choice...unless you are a client of mine, however


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## SlimShady (Feb 2, 2005)

PreMier said:
			
		

> As for studies.. you are both talking about studies that are OLD. Do you have any that have been done in the last 5-10 years, and been disproved? My reasoning is that science has made leaps and bounds since 1982(atkins) and whenever they thought steroids wouldnt build muscle.


 
 The 1982 study is old? .. Yeah well, back in 1982 we thought studies from the 60's were old. Probably in 2020, someone who is 20 years old will think a study from 1998 is old. Science is always changing... heck, 10 years ago everyone ranted and raved about carbs, and now carbs are the athlete's enemy and protein rules.   Look how workouts and training methods have changed in 20 years. 

 You know what? 20 years from now people will look back and say the same thing. 

 I'm not saying that I never believe the scientists, I'm just saying that I believe people just as much. It costs $20 to try out glutamine and it's risk free (health wise). $20 is nothing in long run.....  and this topic isn't worth a bunch of you guys getting mad at each other.  If we were all in the same city, I'd blow $20 buying you all a beer and we'd laugh about this. 

 Premier, I just want to say that I have respect for what you say, so don't think I am blowing off your words, or saying you don't know anything. I'm still new to a lot of this stuff and I try to listen to everyone. So no beef here, just got to explain my point of view...


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## godfather (Feb 2, 2005)

I have a freind that started using glutimine and i thought i noticed some results. ive always been bigger an stronger than him by a fairly large margin and it seemed like his muscles got fuller and he had a slight increase in strength. me and him have always sorta been in competion in the weight room so this piised me off and i bought some. As for the debate since i joined this boarded ive always thought that gopro and redspy were very knowledgeable people and i have always listened to there advice but on this i think gopro is right because every nutrion or diet book lists glutimine as a must have supp. and gopro has used it himself and witnessed results. if it was a peice of shit product why wouldnt everyone agree on it like other bullshit products.alot of people think creatine sucks and alot concider it a must have.


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## maze (Feb 3, 2005)

I think Glutamine works better on ppl that have a deficiency.  And im sure that there are non-responders. We are not all alike, is like coffe ... I cant stand 4oz of it ..my heart start banging.. but other ppl drink a 20oz cup ...

I remember this same type of posts with desiccated liver, many haters and lovers... in the end we can only know for sure by testing it ourselves...


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## Pylon (Feb 4, 2005)

I had never heard of the GI benefits of glut until reading this post, but I can say for sure that since I started taking glut a couple of weeks back, my...um...emissions have been less...um...plentiful.


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## gopro (Feb 4, 2005)

Pylon said:
			
		

> I had never heard of the GI benefits of glut until reading this post, but I can say for sure that since I started taking glut a couple of weeks back, my...um...emissions have been less...um...plentiful.



Well ladies and gentlemen...there is an all time first for glutamine!!


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## jram (Feb 11, 2005)

"and others that gained the big zero...not everything works for everyone exactly the same. "

That's what it's all about. A specific supplement may have varied results on ten different people. For me personnally glutamine works great in the recovery process. Before taking glutamine my 3 day split would actually take 9 days. It would actually take me 2 days to recover before starting the next workout. I started taking glutamine every day 3 times a day and after a month I was able to do a normal 3 day split without any problems. Presently, I'm in my third week of a 5 day split and doing great (M,T Off Th,Fr,Sa. Off). Just my 4 cents.

Pecae


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## huesoloco (Feb 13, 2005)




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## BigKid1212 (Feb 24, 2005)

hey gopro i just started taking L-Glutamine and i always wake up in the middle of the night and cant go back to sleep no matter how much i try =/ its real annoying, should i not take glutamine before bed time. should i just take a little before workout and a little after workout?


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## gopro (Feb 24, 2005)

BigKid1212 said:
			
		

> hey gopro i just started taking L-Glutamine and i always wake up in the middle of the night and cant go back to sleep no matter how much i try =/ its real annoying, should i not take glutamine before bed time. should i just take a little before workout and a little after workout?



Well, I have never heard of glutamine waking anyone up, but perhaps you are an exception. Take it out before bed and see if this changes anything. Switch to taking it first thing in the morning and before and after workouts.


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## Yunier (Feb 24, 2005)

While taking 15 grams of glutamine daily I noticed a major decrease in muscle soreness and hardly got sick.


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## BigKid1212 (Feb 24, 2005)

same with me bud and i train intense i love my supersetting. ive been off sup's for a while and always had major to a little soreing. but i feel great after taking L glut for a while, i have a hell of alot of energy too. that must be keeping me up at night while supping witt it. but hey gopro another Q. what do i take L glute with , fruit juices , milk, water? which is the best choice, thanks.


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## DamnHardGainer (Feb 24, 2005)

Regarding the scientific studies that show little benefit to glutamine supplementation vs placebo, and the theorizing that normal high protein diets sufficiently supply the body with natural glutamine, rendering additional supplementation redundant...

I believe this is why the advice to take glutamine on an empty stomach is sound. We already know the benefits of eating 5-6 small meals per day vs 3 main meals per day when weight training. Is it not logical then to conclude that taking glutamine in between the 5-6 small meals throughout a course of a day may also "fill in the gaps" and be beneficial to building lean muscle mass? I think so.

I would question _when_ the studies directed the subjects to injest the glutamine. If during meals it is likely that the body does what it usually does when it is faced with too much quantity of any nutritional component in a single sitting: it passes through unused.

Consider if someone could drip feed glutamine in a serum through an IV feed 24 hours a day for a bodybuilder. Would having this most vital amino acid available at the body's calling be beneficial in repairing damaged muscle tissues? Of course. By the same logic I would surmise that supplementing glutamine in between meals on an empty stomach would be the way to go. Arnold seems to suggest this according to his Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding book.


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## gopro (Feb 25, 2005)

BigKid1212 said:
			
		

> same with me bud and i train intense i love my supersetting. ive been off sup's for a while and always had major to a little soreing. but i feel great after taking L glut for a while, i have a hell of alot of energy too. that must be keeping me up at night while supping witt it. but hey gopro another Q. what do i take L glute with , fruit juices , milk, water? which is the best choice, thanks.



You can take it with water or with fruit juice (just remember the extra sugar calories in there). As long as you do not take it with protein you are ok (unless you use glutamine peptides in which case it can be taken with protein).


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## gopro (Feb 25, 2005)

DamnHardGainer said:
			
		

> Regarding the scientific studies that show little benefit to glutamine supplementation vs placebo, and the theorizing that normal high protein diets sufficiently supply the body with natural glutamine, rendering additional supplementation redundant...
> 
> I believe this is why the advice to take glutamine on an empty stomach is sound. We already know the benefits of eating 5-6 small meals per day vs 3 main meals per day when weight training. Is it not logical then to conclude that taking glutamine in between the 5-6 small meals throughout a course of a day may also "fill in the gaps" and be beneficial to building lean muscle mass? I think so.
> 
> ...



Some of my best progress occurs when I take small amounts of glutamine/BCAAs/creatine between every meal of the day. Also, when dieting, this strategy will keep you from getting hungry and will keep energy up, muscles full, and will aid in fat loss.


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## BigDyl (Feb 25, 2005)

Jesus, I can't wait till GlutTech comes out.


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