# What gives you the most "keepable gains"?



## DaBeast25 (Mar 12, 2011)

There are obviously a number of factors hear...

I'm wondering about the actual muscle gain NOT the water weight, increased glycogen storage gains, etc...

Proper PCT, diet, and training in check...

You often hear of things like primo and anavar, but I also have heard tren which is very much the opposite of the previously mentioned in terms of how strong it is.


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## prop01 (Mar 12, 2011)

I have never done Tren but I doubt it will give keepable gains . Gear that gives you the slowest and slightest gains seem to be more easy to keep off cycle . EQ ..Anavar and Primo would be my answer .


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## Imosted (Mar 12, 2011)

^^^^this


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## Work IN Progress (Mar 12, 2011)

Id hate to beat a dead horse here but my vote is gonna be good old plain jane testosterone.  Its not just a coincidence that people run it in every cycle.


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## Runner22 (Mar 12, 2011)

prop01 said:


> I have never done Tren but I doubt it will give keepable gains . Gear that gives you the slowest and slightest gains seem to be more easy to keep off cycle . EQ ..Anavar and Primo would be my answer .


 
I used Tren/ Parabolan many years ago as part of my recovery after having reconstructive surgery on my ankle.  Not only did it speed my recovery by months, but the lean muscle I gained was second to none - followed very closely by A50.  I gained some water weight from the A50, but it made me so damn strong, I couldn't help but have long lasting gains from the heavy lifting.  Now, I'm a runner and much weaker - but I look good!


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## twotuff (Mar 12, 2011)

Proper Pct is a must!! if you follow a good pct i dont see why you dont keep half of what you gain. 

*Post Cycle Therapy*​ 

Post Cycle Therapy is a common topic among steroid  users for maximizing gains and restoring the  hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis so I thought I would give you  guys some of the best information that I have ever read about the topic.  I have always respected clinical human trials and their application to  androgenic anabolic steroids and I have always admired William Llewellyn  for his contribution to chemical enhancement so I have decided to  reproduce William Llewellyn’s thoughts about PCT along with a clinical  human study of a successful PCT.

The following information is taken from Anabolics  2007 by William Llewellyn, I have written another section at the end for  practical application of this information.

*BACKGROUND*

When you take AAS, your body stops making natural  hormones (i.e., test). Once you stop taking steroids, you can be left  with a gap until your body starts making its own again, which can take  months. Here, you can be faced with low levels of androgens and normal  levels of corticosteroids. Corticosteroids have a pronounced catabolic  (muscle-depleting) state on our bodies, and without the androgens to  balance the catabolic effects of corticosteroids, a good deal of your  new muscle mass may be lost. To help your body maintain its size, you  will want to restore endogenous (natural) testosterone production  quickly. The methods for doing this seem to be different everywhere you  look: "Take HCG, don't take HCG, use an aromatase inhibitor, just take  Clomid, forget Clomid and just take Nolvadex." What option is reall  best? Without an understanding of what is really happeningin your body,  and why certain compounds help to correct the situation, choosing he  correct PCT program can be quite confusing.

*The HPTA Axis*

The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis (HPTA)  is the thermostat for your body's natural production of testosterone.  Too much testosterone, and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and  the heat is turned up (to put it very simply). For the purpose of our  discussion, we can look at this regulating process as having three  levels. At the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, which  releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone) when it  senses a need for more testosterone. GnRH sends a signal to the second  level of the axis, the pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone in  response. LH for short, this hormone stimulates the testes (level three)  to secrete testosterone. The same sex steroids (testosterone, estrogen)  that are produced serve to counterbalance things, by providing negative  feedback signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) to lower  the secretion of testosterone. Synthetic steroids send the same  negative feedback. This quick background of the testosterone-regulating  axis is necessary to furthering our discussion, as we need to first look  at the underlying mechanism involved before we can understand why  natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle is a slow process. Only then can  we implement an ancillary drug program to effectively deal with it.

*Testicular Desensitization*

Although steroids suppress testosterone production  primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones, the big  roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off steroids is surprisingly  not LH. This problem was made clearly evident in a study published back  in 1975. Here, blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels,  were monitored in male subjects who were given testosterone enanthate  injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks, a low dose for even a  beginner's cycle. Subjects remained under investigation for an  additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the  study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in  testosterone, which was to be expected. Things looked very different,  however, once the steroids had been withdrawn. LH levels went on the  rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for  quite some time. In fact, on average, it was more than 10 weeks before  any noticeable movement in testosterone production started at all! This  lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen  levels restored is not necessarily the level of LH, but more so  testicular atrophy and desensitization to LH. After a period of  inactivation, the testes have lost mass (atrophied), making them unable  to perform the required workload. The protracted post-cycle window can,  likewise, no longer be looked at as one of low testosterone and low LH.  Much of it actually involves low testosterone and normal (even high) LH.

*The Role of Anti-Estrogens*

It is important to understand that anti-estrogens  alone are inadequate to restore normal endogenous testosterone  production after a cycle. These agents ordinarily increase LH levels by  blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. But LH rebounds quickly on  its own post-cycle, without help. Plus, there is not an elevated level  of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block during this window, as  testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the  synthesis of estrogen in men. Serum estrogen levels are actually lower  here, not higher. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle, likewise,  happens with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (there  is an imbalance in the ratio of androgens to estrogens post cycle, but  this is another topic altogether). On their own, we are seeing no  mechanism in which anti-estrogenic drugs can effectively help here. I  can, however, see why this fact would be easy to overlook. The medical  literature is filled with references showing anti-estrogenic drugs like  Clomid and Nolvadex to increase LH and testosterone levels in men, and  in normal situations they indeed perform this function very well.  Combine this with the fact that just as many studies can be found to  show that steroid use lowers LH when suppressing testosterone, and we  can see how easy it would be to jump to the conclusion that we need to  focus on LH. We would miss the true problem, testicular desensitization,  unless we were really looking into the actual recovery rates of the  hormones involved. When we do, we immediately see little value in  focusing solely on anti-estrogenic drugs.

*The Role of HCG*

With anti-estrogens alone proving to be  ineffective, we are left to focus on a very different level of the HPTA  in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this, we will need the  injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar, HCG, or Human Chorionic  Gonadotropin, is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the body's  natural LH. Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as  they are to LH (they work through the same receptor), we are  administering it as a measured drug and are, therefore, not constrained  by the limits of our own LH production. In other words, we can give  ourselves a good dose of the drug (as much LH as we really need),  shocking the testes with unnaturally high levels of stimulation. We want  it to reach a level above what our bodies, even when supported by  anti-estrogens, could do on its own. The result should be a more rapid  restoration of original testicular mass, which would allow normal levels  of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary  program in place. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the  pivotal post-cycle drug, with anti-estrogens playing more of a  supportive role.

*The PoWeR PCT Program*

The PCT program outlined below represents what I  consider to be an ideal and effective PCT program. It was developed by  the doctors at the Program for Wellness Restoration (PoWeR), who have a  formidable history helping patients recover from abnormal hormonal  functioning following steroid therapy. One of the key doctors on this  program, Dr. Michael Scally, claims to have successfully treated more  than 100 cases of hypogonadism/hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, and is  very well known in the field of androgen replacement therapy. PoWeR  published this program as part of a recent clinical study, which  involved 19 healthy male subject who were taking supraphysiological  (highly suppressive) doses of testosterone cypionate and nandrolone  decanoate for 12 weeks. Their HPGA Normalization Protocol focuses on the  combined use of HCG, Nolvadex, and Clomid, and is perhaps the only  clinical documented post-cycle therapy program to be found in the  medical literature (it is amazing how little attention has been paid to  hormone normalization in clinical medicine). The most notable variation  from a classic PCT stack, such that I have been a longtime supporter of,  is the combined use of two anti-estrogens. In this case I cannot say  there is a disadvantage to such us; perhaps it is indeed the better  option.

*NOLVADEX: ran for 45 days from day 1*
*CLOMID: ran for 30 days from day 1*
*HCG: ran for 16 days from day 1*
*(Day after drug cessation)*


Examining the program closely, we note that the  testes are hit hard with HCG at the onset of therapy. Its intake,  however, is limited to only 16 days. The doctors undoubtedly recognize  that when HCG is taken for too long or at too high a dosage it can  desensitize the LH receptor. This would only further exacerbate the  post-cycle program, not help it. Anti-estrogens are used during and  after HCG, with a dosage of 10mg of Nolvadex and 100mg of Clomid per  day, rounding out this compliment of drugs. Clomid is used for a shorter  period of time than Nolvadex, likely because of the desensitizing  effect it too can have (on the pituitary gland) with continued use.  Among other things, these two anti-estrogens will continue to foster LH  release as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as combat  any potential estrogenic side effects that may be caused by HCG's  up-regulation of testicular aromatase activity. Although the first  couple of weeks the anti-estrogens probably do very little, they should  be much more helpful toward the middle and end of the program. During  this clinical investigation, normal hormonal function was restored in  all subjects within 45 days of drug cessation. This is a definite  success, far more favorable than the protracted recovery window noted in  studies without PCT, such as the 250mg/week testosterone enanthate  investigation. Such a detailed recovery program should follow any  serious steroid cycle. It is the best way to maintain your gains at  their maximum, and that is, after all, what we are after.

*HPGA Normalization Protocol After Androgen Treatment*
*N Vergel**, AL Hodge, MC Scally*
*Program for Wellness Restoration, PoWeR*​ 

*Objective Results Discussion*

To develop an approach to cycle  androgens that would result in significant changes in body composition  and accelerate the normalization of the hypothalamic pituitary gonadal  axis (HPGA) after cessation of androgens.

*Methods*

An uncontrolled study of 19  HIV-negative eugonadal men, ages 23 – 57 years, administered  testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks, and then  were treated simultaneously with a combined regimen of human chorionic  gonadotropin (hCG) (2500 IU/QODx16d), clomiphene citrate (50 mg PO BID x  30d) and tamoxifen (20 mg PO QD x 45d), to restore the HPGA.

*Results*

Mean FFM by DEXA increased from  64.1 to 69.8 kg (p<.001); percent body fat decreased from 23.6 to  20.9 (p<.01); strength increased significantly from 357.4 lb to 406.4  lb (p=.02). No significant changes in serum chemistries and liver  function tests were found. HDL-C decreased from a mean value of 44.3 to  38.0 (p=.02). Mean values for luteinizing hormone (LH) and total  testosterone (T) were 4.5 and 460, respectively prior to androgen  treatment. At the conclusion of the 12-week treatment with androgens the  mean LH <0.7 (p<.001) and total testosterone was 1568  (p<.001). The mean values after treatment with the combined regimen  were LH=6.2 and testosterone=458.

*Discussion*

The use of androgens has been  reported to improve lean body mass, strength, sexual function, and mood  accompanied by side effects caused by continuous uninterrupted use of  these compounds (polycythemia, testicular atrophy, hypertension, liver  dysfunction [oral androgens] and alopecia.) Androgen-induced HPGA  suppression causes a severe hypogonadal state in most patients that  often require an extensive period of considerable duration for  normalization. This prevents most if not all individuals from cycling  off these medications due to the adverse impact of this state on their  previously gained LBM and quality of life. The protocol of  hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful in restoring the HPGA within 45  days after androgen cessation. Further controlled studies are needed to  determine if these results can be duplicated in HIV positive subjects. 


*PRACTICAL APPLICATION *

The esters used in the abstract were cypionate and  deconate however the administration of the PCT medications were started  the day after aas cessation. Essentially the aas esters were still  active when PCT began. The first 16 days a large amount of HCG was used  in order to increase the mass of the testes so that they could sustain  output of testosterone sooner. The HCG was stopped about the time the  esters cleared so that estrogenic activity from the HCG would be  reduced. During those first 16 days 2 different SERM’s were also  employed (Clomid and Nolvadex) This protocol is contrary to what is  typically recommended in many forums but regardless the protocol was  effective in all 19 men. This is a 100% success rate! After the HCG was  discontinued both SERM’s were continued. The following is the exact  protocol in laymen’s terms.

*Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day.*
*Day 1-30 : Nolva 20mg/day; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day)*
*Day 31-45 : Nolva 20mg/day*

 *Please see the ammended PCT protocol in post #33 as I no longer advocate Nolva* 



_~heavyiron~

^^^^ thanks heavy^^

This is a great outline for you. SO INJECT YOURSELF with whatever you want just follow this
_​


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## Repo (Mar 12, 2011)

The proper pct is going to play a major part in what gains you keep.

I'd say first hand - test - and also (I think) tren as well.

I'm in my first tren cycle and I hear you keep most of your gains if everything else is in check.


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## prop01 (Mar 12, 2011)

Runner22 said:


> I used Tren/ Parabolan many years ago as part of my recovery after having reconstructive surgery on my ankle. Not only did it speed my recovery by months, but the lean muscle I gained was second to none - followed very closely by A50. I gained some water weight from the A50, but it made me so damn strong, I couldn't help but have long lasting gains from the heavy lifting. Now, I'm a runner and much weaker - but I look good!


 
That's interesting . A50 I guess are Abombs ..Drol ?
Ya' know I have thought about giving up weights and running more myself ...I mean I like the way I feel after a nice run , which for me now would be three miles tops . Well I'll just try to incorporate both .


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## BillHicksFan (Mar 12, 2011)

Just browsing steroid profiles it was common to read that EQ gains seemed to be the best kept of all the gears. Ive never ran a decent amount so I have no experience with this compound.


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## Runner22 (Mar 12, 2011)

prop01 said:


> That's interesting . A50 I guess are Abombs ..Drol ?
> Ya' know I have thought about giving up weights and running more myself ...I mean I like the way I feel after a nice run , which for me now would be three miles tops . Well I'll just try to incorporate both .


 
A50 is Anadrol 50 and I would not give up weights unless you want to be a distance runner and compete at a high level (even then its still important). Bulk and running just don't mix, but strength and sprinting compliment each other - to a point. Most would consider 3 miles a sprint (as I do). I also love the way I feel when I run and I love the way I feel when I lift. I try to find an equal medium that compliments each other. The reality is that it's a fine line and I often question what I want more. I've done the body building thing and now, for me, I like to run. Don't get me wrong, I incorporate everything I learned as a bodybuilder (diet, training, supplementation, etc) into a training plan. Then I learn some more and make adjustments. I guess what I'm trying to say is be strong, stay agile and listen to your body. It will tell you what works for you...despite all else.


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## ROID (Mar 12, 2011)

No matter what you use, screw the PCT up and you're not going to keep anything.

I think it is a safe bet to say that 85% of the people that use gear lose most of their gains once the cycle is over. 

I have several friends that "cycle" this way.

Start a cycle in Jan./ Feb for the summer.  

 Juice till mid June.

Workout until mid July. 

By August they have stopped going to the gym all together and by the end of September they have lost everything , which was just water, they have gained. 
This pattern is repeated every year.

I always love hearing the excuses as to why they don't work out anymore.

 The funniest thing I hear from a few of them is that they are "all natural"   after they pack on 30lbs of water in a couple months


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