# Good Mornings...primarily for back or hamstrings?



## AKIRA (Feb 21, 2006)

This question stems from my leg day and deciding which deadlifts to do.  

If Good Mornings are for back, then stiff-legged deads are for back, yes?
If Good Mornings are for hamstrings, then stiff-legged are for hams, yes?

And if one is correct, then how about regular deads, with a more so bended knee, what is the primary mover for that?

Fucking REAL confused here.


----------



## kenwood (Feb 21, 2006)

AKIRA said:
			
		

> This question stems from my leg day and deciding which deadlifts to do.
> 
> If Good Mornings are for back, then stiff-legged deads are for back, yes?
> If Good Mornings are for hamstrings, then stiff-legged are for hams, yes?
> ...


great job bro, u confused both of us


----------



## JerseyGuy (Feb 21, 2006)

I'm confused about this too, which type of deadlift is for back/which for hams?


----------



## fUnc17 (Feb 21, 2006)

This comes back to the training movements not body parts.

Conventional deadlifts work MANY muscles, which is why it's considered a compound movement.

SLDL's work numerous muscle groups as well, but they are a primarly hamstring dominant movement. Just as an Incline Barbell bench works much more than just the chest.

Just as with SLDL's, Good Mornings (GM's), work more than one muscle. But they are primarily a lower back movement. 

This is why it's MUCH easier to follow a program that trains movements, not body parts.

You said your leg day is what your having problems with. Well to be honest, you can do SLDL's on leg day or Conventional deads, doesn't matter. If I were you, I'd do one of two things. Either, A, do SLDL's on leg day, or B, do Conventional deads on leg day, NOT both. Switch em on and off, or just choose one of them and stick with it.

And the primary mover of the deadlift would be the back, only because of the location of the bar. If it were across your traps more emphasis would be placed upon your legs (squat). Same basic movement, but the location of the bar determines where the emphasis lays.


----------



## Arnold (Feb 21, 2006)

good mornings are meant to target low back, personally I do not recommend them.


----------



## Seanp156 (Feb 21, 2006)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> good mornings are meant to target low back, personally I do not recommend them.



May I ask why? It seems to me, that if you can squat 315+ but can't GM 135 you could have some muscle imbalance issues that would likely lead to injury down the road.

Sure, if you try to use too much weight on GM's too quick (true of squats & deadlifts too...), you're most likely going to be injured, but I still think they're a good movement.


----------



## CowPimp (Feb 21, 2006)

This is why body part training, and classifying exercises by body part, is retarded.  Technically it's a lower back isolation  exercise, and so is the SLDL/RDL.  Both smash your entire posterior chain though.




			
				Seanp156 said:
			
		

> May I ask why? It seems to me, that if you can squat 315+ but can't GM 135 you could have some muscle imbalance issues that would likely lead to injury down the road.
> 
> Sure, if you try to use too much weight on GM's too quick (true of squats & deadlifts too...), you're most likely going to be injured, but I still think they're a good movement.



Good mornings are a riskier movement than many out there, but damn it if they aren't really effective.  Rob has had his share of back problems, so I can't blame him for the suggestion.


----------



## P-funk (Feb 21, 2006)

good mornings are gor hamstrings.

deadlifts are for hamstrings.

both execises are hip extension on the concentric.  It is simple biomechanics (also the reason why single body part training doesn't work).  any dip shit bodybuilder that tells you deadlifting is for 'back' should also be doing bent over rows for their hamstring since it is an isometric contraction.






			
				Seanp156 said:
			
		

> May I ask why? It seems to me, that if you can squat 315+ but can't GM 135 you could have some muscle imbalance issues that would likely lead to injury down the road.
> 
> Sure, if you try to use too much weight on GM's too quick (true of squats & deadlifts too...), you're most likely going to be injured, but I still think they're a good movement.




in general, for most people, the risk is greater then the reward.


----------



## P-funk (Feb 21, 2006)

cowplop beat me to it...haha


----------



## Vlar (Feb 21, 2006)

I did good mornings for the first time the other day.. previously i've got accustomed to squats and deadlifts so my lower back handled it very well I think. Now be it practically a bare bar, but a day later I can say my hams got hit harder than ever before.


----------



## DOMS (Feb 22, 2006)

You should try Romanian deadlifts.


----------



## AKIRA (Feb 22, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> You should try Romanian deadlifts.



Arent they the same as SLDLs?  Or are SLDLs Russian Deadlifts?  Cant find my book so I dont know off the top pf my head.

I think everyone is getting a lil crazy about movements vs. bodyparts.  TRUST ME, Ive adapted this and preached it in person to people not visiting this site.

Im very, very aware on what these damn deadlifts do.  I am also aware there is more than 1 reason why there are different angles, forms, and grips to do these.  Hence the questions I asked.

I really wanted to know about the good mornings from the deadlift ponderment.  Since its a slightly different 'movement,' I was wondering if less/more muscles are involved.  Particularily, the lower back.

(My lower back is fucked right now and Id like to know what to avoid or improve.  And I am on my way the a muscle therapist or whatever you call it)


----------



## CowPimp (Feb 22, 2006)

If your lower back is "fucked" right now, then you most likely want to avoid good mornings.  I'm just assuming fucked means some kind of pain?

Well, I don't want to speak for everyone else, but the reason I promote thinking of lifting in movements so much is because everyone has the whole body part thing ingrained to the point where they can't visualize it any other way.  This is flawed.  I get tired of people asking me what muscle I'm working when I do clean & jerks, Turkish get-ups, or landmines.  Everything dammit!  The other reason being that thinking in body parts often leads to developing muscle imbalances and injuries later down the road.  Not to mention it doesn't make sense.

Anyway, think about it.  The SLDL and good morning are essentially the same movement, but the placement of the bar is different.  You can generally use more weight on SLDLs simply because the bar is further away from the hip joint when doing good mornings, so there is more torque to counteract.  Good mornings probably also place more stress on your spine, at equivalent loads, for this very reason.


----------



## DOMS (Feb 22, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> If your lower back is "fucked" right now, then you most likely want to avoid good mornings. I'm just assuming fucked means some kind of pain?
> 
> Well, I don't want to speak for everyone else, but the reason I promote thinking of lifting in movements so much is because everyone has the whole body part thing ingrained to the point where they can't visualize it any other way. This is flawed. I get tired of people asking me what muscle I'm working when I do clean & jerks, Turkish get-ups, or landmines. Everything dammit! The other reason being that thinking in body parts often leads to developing muscle imbalances and injuries later down the road. Not to mention it doesn't make sense.
> 
> Anyway, think about it. The SLDL and good morning are essentially the same movement, but the placement of the bar is different. You can generally use more weight on SLDLs simply because the bar is further away from the hip joint when doing good mornings, so there is more torque to counteract. Good mornings probably also place more stress on your spine, at equivalent loads, for this very reason.



I thought that GMs had the bar further from the hip than SLDLs, which would mean that you couldn't use as much weight (simple lever mechanics)?


----------



## The13ig13adWolf (Feb 22, 2006)

AKIRA said:
			
		

> Arent they the same as SLDLs?  Or are SLDLs Russian Deadlifts?


no. RDLs = soft knees, the movement varies slightly.

what is a Russian DL?


----------



## P-funk (Feb 22, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> I thought that GMs had the bar further from the hip than SLDLs, which would mean that you couldn't use as much weight (simple lever mechanics)?




yes, the bar on a good morning is further away from the hip joint then on an SLDL...Think about it.  We keep the bar close to the hips on the SLDLs (or RDLs or deadlifts or cleans or snatches or whatever) in an effort to keep the load closest to the axis of rotation.  By doing a good morning, in the 'bottom' positition, that bar is a good 2 feet or more (given different peoples torso lengths) away from that axsis of rotation, therefore, placing greater stress on the spine.  Also, less weight is used because it is 'direct' loading of the spine so you are really going to have to stay tight to complete the concentric of the repetition where as with a deadlift (even though there shouldn't be) you have some leeway to bend or round a tad.


----------



## The13ig13adWolf (Feb 22, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> I thought that GMs had the bar further from the hip than SLDLs, which would mean that you couldn't use as much weight (simple lever mechanics)?


relatively the same distance from the hip but the weight distribution variable makes a lighter load necessary on a GM.


----------



## Arnold (Feb 22, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Good mornings are a riskier movement than many out there, but damn it if they aren't really effective.  Rob has had his share of back problems, so I can't blame him for the suggestion.



right, I do not think the risk of the movement is worth it, there are other things you can do for your lower back without the amount of risk involved in a good morning. 

also, after many years of training and beating the hell out of my back if I could go back 15 years and do it all over I would take much better care of my back. if you are still young this will not mean anything to you, but keep training hard and heavy for another 15 years and you will know exactly what I am talking about!


----------



## The13ig13adWolf (Feb 22, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> yes, the bar on a good morning is further away from the hip joint then on an SLDL...Think about it.  We keep the bar close to the hips on the SLDLs (or RDLs or deadlifts or cleans or snatches or whatever) in an effort to keep the load closest to the axis of rotation.  By doing a good morning, in the 'bottom' positition, that bar is a good 2 feet or more (given different peoples torso lengths) away from that axsis of rotation, therefore, placing greater stress on the spine.  Also, less weight is used because it is 'direct' loading of the spine so you are really going to have to stay tight to complete the concentric of the repetition where as with a deadlift (even though there shouldn't be) you have some leeway to bend or round a tad.


you don't think it's about equal at the beginning of the movement?


----------



## Dale Mabry (Feb 22, 2006)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> right, I do not think the risk of the movement is worth it, there are other things you can do for your lower back without the amount of risk involved in a good morning.
> 
> also, after many years of training and beating the hell out of my back if I could go back 15 years and do it all over I would take much better care of my back. if you are still young this will not mean anything to you, but keep training hard and heavy for another 15 years and you will know exactly what I am talking about!




This message brought to you by Papa Dimaggio...


----------



## Dale Mabry (Feb 22, 2006)

In all seriousness, no exercise movement is all that bad for you, it is when a lack of common sense and humility combine to have some retard doing a rounded back Good Morning with 200lbs.


----------



## P-funk (Feb 22, 2006)

The13ig13adWolf said:
			
		

> you don't think it's about equal at the beginning of the movement?




think what is equal?  The force?  I think it is near equal at the begning of the movement (the standing position) sure.  How much...who knows.  When you extend your hips and get your body into that prone position I think the force is greater when the load is on your back then when it is being held in front of you.  If it weren't people's good mornings would far surpass their deadlifting abilities.

you don't think?


----------



## The13ig13adWolf (Feb 22, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> think what is equal?  The force?  I think it is near equal at the begning of the movement (the standing position) sure.  How much...who knows.  When you extend your hips and get your body into that prone position I think the force is greater when the load is on your back then when it is being held in front of you.  If it weren't people's good mornings would far surpass their deadlifting abilities.
> 
> you don't think?


no argument.


----------



## P-funk (Feb 22, 2006)

The13ig13adWolf said:
			
		

> no argument.




wanna fight?


----------



## The13ig13adWolf (Feb 22, 2006)

yes please


----------



## AKIRA (Feb 22, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> If your lower back is "fucked" right now, then you most likely want to avoid good mornings.  I'm just assuming fucked means some kind of pain?
> 
> Well, I don't want to speak for everyone else, but the reason I promote thinking of lifting in movements so much is because everyone has the whole body part thing ingrained to the point where they can't visualize it any other way.  This is flawed.  I get tired of people asking me what muscle I'm working when I do clean & jerks, Turkish get-ups, or landmines.  Everything dammit!  The other reason being that thinking in body parts often leads to developing muscle imbalances and injuries later down the road.  Not to mention it doesn't make sense.
> 
> Anyway, think about it.  The SLDL and good morning are essentially the same movement, but the placement of the bar is different.  You can generally use more weight on SLDLs simply because the bar is further away from the hip joint when doing good mornings, so there is more torque to counteract.  Good mornings probably also place more stress on your spine, at equivalent loads, for this very reason.




My pain isnt sharp or burning.  Its merely a STIFF pain.  I can hardly bring my knees to my chest during simple movments like putting on shoes to doing a SLDL.  The guy that fucked with my back today said my left leg was shorter than the other and that the siatic(spelled it just like it sounds) nerve was being pinched.  Is this guy bullshitting?  

I have been meaning to stay away.  In fact, when I was overtrained 2 weeks ago, this was another reason why I took a break.

Sooooooo, I was thinking about which deadlift move would cause the least pain, then thought about Good Mornings.  Then the confusion set in.


----------



## AKIRA (Feb 22, 2006)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> right, I do not think the risk of the movement is worth it, there are other things you can do for your lower back without the amount of risk involved in a good morning.
> 
> also, after many years of training and beating the hell out of my back if I could go back 15 years and do it all over I would take much better care of my back. if you are still young this will not mean anything to you, but keep training hard and heavy for another 15 years and you will know exactly what I am talking about!



What other movements are just as good?  Just deadlifts?  I am talking about movements you can add weight to and increase strength.


----------



## Seanp156 (Feb 22, 2006)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> right, I do not think the risk of the movement is worth it, there are other things you can do for your lower back without the amount of risk involved in a good morning.
> 
> also, after many years of training and beating the hell out of my back if I could go back 15 years and do it all over I would take much better care of my back. if you are still young this will not mean anything to you, but keep training hard and heavy for another 15 years and you will know exactly what I am talking about!


So, you'd recommend doing things like rack deads, hyper extensions, conventional deadlifts, romanian deadlifts, etc over GM's ? Even though I might not have problems now, I certainly don't want them down the road either...


----------



## Arnold (Feb 22, 2006)

Seanp156 said:
			
		

> So, you'd recommend doing things like rack deads, hyper extensions, conventional deadlifts, romanian deadlifts, etc over GM's ? Even though I might not have problems now, I certainly don't want them down the road either...



Those exercises are fine if you use good form, but deads will put a lot of extra wear and tear on your back/discs that will eventually catch up with you, I guess my advice would be do them sparingly and don't do anyhting under 8-10 reps. 

I guess my point is if you beat your back to hell you will pay for it eventually when you're older as I am now.


----------



## shiznit2169 (Feb 22, 2006)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> Those exercises are fine if you use good form, but deads will put a lot of extra wear and tear on your back/discs that will eventually catch up with you, I guess my advice would be do them sparingly and don't do anyhting under 8-10 reps.
> 
> I guess my point is if you beat your back to hell you will pay for it eventually when you're older as I am now.



lol, i do deadlifts every week and i usually target the 3-5 rep range area and then usually go for my max. Last week, i did 400 and still have no back/hip pain whatsoever


----------



## P-funk (Feb 22, 2006)

shiznit2169 said:
			
		

> lol, i do deadlifts every week and i usually target the 3-5 rep range area and then usually go for my max. Last week, i did 400 and still have no back/hip pain whatsoever




papa dimaggio has a few more years on you son.  

he is saying it may catch up with you later in life.


----------



## Rottweiller (Feb 22, 2006)

GM's are hard to do.


----------



## Arnold (Feb 22, 2006)

shiznit2169 said:
			
		

> lol, i do deadlifts every week and i usually target the 3-5 rep range area and then usually go for my max. Last week, i did 400 and still have no back/hip pain whatsoever



how old are you and how long have you been training hard & heavy?


----------



## Squaggleboggin (Feb 22, 2006)

Rottweiller said:
			
		

> GM's are hard to do.



I have to agree with this. Every time I've tried them I've been unable to feel comfortable with the exercise - incorrect bar placement, inconsistent ROM on each rep, etc. That's why I just stick to SLDLs and I'm actually doing more weight for these than I am for squats.


----------



## DOMS (Feb 22, 2006)

Surprisingly, GMs feel natural to me.  I usually don't go below 10 reps though.


----------



## P-funk (Feb 22, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Surprisingly, GMs feel natural to me.  I usually don't go below 10 reps though.




yea, I always do higher reps on them because I find max good mornings to be more trouble then they are worth...also, I usually do my good mornings at the end of the workout so the last thing I want to do is heavy doubles after snatches, clean and jerks and front squats.


----------



## DOMS (Feb 22, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> yea, I always do higher reps on them because I find max good mornings to be more trouble then they are worth...also, I usually do my good mornings at the end of the workout so the last thing I want to do is heavy doubles after snatches, clean and jerks and front squats.



I've the same reasoning.

On a side note, the last part of your post sounds pornographic.


----------



## shiznit2169 (Feb 22, 2006)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> how old are you and how long have you been training hard & heavy?



 19 years old and been lifting hard and heavy for 1 year


----------



## shiznit2169 (Feb 22, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> I've the same reasoning.
> 
> On a side note, the last part of your post sounds pornographic.



why were you spending your energy looking for "pornographic" terms?


----------



## Arnold (Feb 22, 2006)

shiznit2169 said:
			
		

> 19 years old and been lifting hard and heavy for 1 year



ahhh...learn from my great wisdom young grasshopper!


----------



## IRON MAN (Feb 22, 2006)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> right, I do not think the risk of the movement is worth it, there are other things you can do for your lower back without the amount of risk involved in a good morning.
> 
> also, after many years of training and beating the hell out of my back if I could go back 15 years and do it all over I would take much better care of my back. if you are still young this will not mean anything to you, but keep training hard and heavy for another 15 years and you will know exactly what I am talking about!



Another experienced trainer tells the truth about "Good Mornings". It's just not worth it. .I hope the younger guys on this board will listen to what Robert is saying )


----------



## Doublebase (Feb 22, 2006)

I have never done them.  They look like they could hurt yuh.


----------



## BritChick (Feb 22, 2006)

I throw my SLDL and Good Mornings in on hamstring day, SLDL usually is my primary exercise and heavy, Good Mornings last and higher reps.  
Unless you've got great core strength and have no back injuries I'd stay away from both, perfect posture is a must to avoid injury.


----------



## CowPimp (Feb 22, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> I thought that GMs had the bar further from the hip than SLDLs, which would mean that you couldn't use as much weight (simple lever mechanics)?



That's what I said, although I think I phrased it poorly.

My stance on GMs is that they are an extremely useful exercise.  Are they riskier than some comparable movements?  Yes.  Are they highly effective?  Yes.  You have to determine if the risk is worth it to you.

Personally, I have never had any problems with rounding or even feeling uncomfortable with the movement.  I do 1RMs with them, and honestly think good mornings are a big part of why my posterior chain strength went through the roof in the last year or so.  Of course, I think my goals are a little more aggressive than most, and they are certainly not necessary for the vast majority of people to achieve their goals.


----------

