# Body Part Training



## Steed77 (Apr 11, 2006)

Okay...many people here do not like body part training. I DO NOT disagree with that, but my question is this:

Wouldn't leg curls, extensions, calf raises, be body part training? So, how would you train your legs without "Body Part Training"? Squats? Lunges? 

Also...Leg extensions DO build muscle mass, but is it practicle? We don't really use our legs that way, so why do it-other than to try and get more strength/muscle? Same thing with leg curls...???


I'm not trying to be a smart ass...I am just curious what everyone else thinks?

Thanks!


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## GFR (Apr 11, 2006)

Steed77 said:
			
		

> Okay...many people here do not like body part training. I DO NOT disagree with that, but my question is this:
> 
> Wouldn't leg curls, extensions, calf raises, be body part training? So, *how would you train your legs without "Body Part Trainin*g"? Squats? Lunges?
> 
> ...


Squats, SLDL and lower legs


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## maxpro2 (Apr 11, 2006)

Someone claiming that they do not use bodypart training is not entirely true. For instance, a push day would be the same as working your chest, shoulders, and triceps. But the difference lies in using compound movements to accomplish hitting each muscle, and not trying to completely _isolate_ a particular muscle. For example, instead of doing tricep pushdowns, do dips or CG bench press. For shoulders, instead of doing front raises, do overhead presses. That way when you get down to the smaller muscle groups such as triceps, you will only need a few sets if that to stimulate them. For quads, instead of leg extensions do squats and leg press.


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## AKIRA (Apr 11, 2006)

Steed77 said:
			
		

> Okay...many people here do not like body part training. I DO NOT disagree with that, but my question is this:
> 
> Wouldn't leg curls, extensions, calf raises, be body part training? So, how would you train your legs without "Body Part Training"? Squats? Lunges?
> 
> ...




A leg day or hip day is yes a bodypart day, but that doesnt mean you think of just one part of the leg.  Part=Leg Not Part=quad.

Why not do squats then leg extensions?
Or Deadlifts then ham curls?
Or switch them for pre-exhaustment..?

Now you got best of both worlds.


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## CowPimp (Apr 11, 2006)

MWpro said:
			
		

> Someone claiming that they do not use bodypart training is not entirely true. For instance, a push day would be the same as working your chest, shoulders, and triceps. But the difference lies in using compound movements to accomplish hitting each muscle, and not trying to completely _isolate_ a particular muscle. For example, instead of doing tricep pushdowns, do dips or CG bench press. For shoulders, instead of doing front raises, do overhead presses. That way when you get down to the smaller muscle groups such as triceps, you will only need a few sets if that to stimulate them. For quads, instead of leg extensions do squats and leg press.



It is true.  Guess what other muscles work when you are overhead pressing?  Your trapezius works to superiorly rotate the scapula to get a full range of motion.  Do you dumbbell pullovers for your chest?  Well, you're working your lats too.  You like to do WG pullups?  Well, the chest assist in shoulder adduction in this movement.

Let's not discount stabilizers either.  Are you retracting your scapula and firing your lats to stabilize the bar during a bench press?  Well, probably not, most people bench wrong, but you should be!  Are you keeping your spine in a neutral position when deadlifting?  Well, that takes an assload of isometric contraction from muscles all up and down your back, but the primary movement is still hip extension and knee extension, which is carried out by the lower body.

You see a curl as a bicep movement.  I see it as elbow flexion.  You see the leg curl as a hamstring movement.  I see it as knee flexion.  You see the situp as an ab movement.  I see it as hip/spinal flexion.  On and on...


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## furion joe (Apr 12, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> It is true.  Guess what other muscles work when you are overhead pressing?  Your trapezius works to superiorly rotate the scapula to get a full range of motion.  Do you dumbbell pullovers for your chest?  Well, you're working your lats too.  You like to do WG pullups?  Well, the chest assist in shoulder adduction in this movement.
> 
> Let's not discount stabilizers either.  Are you retracting your scapula and firing your lats to stabilize the bar during a bench press?  Well, probably not, most people bench wrong, but you should be!  Are you keeping your spine in a neutral position when deadlifting?  Well, that takes an assload of isometric contraction from muscles all up and down your back, but the primary movement is still hip extension and knee extension, which is carried out by the lower body.
> 
> You see a curl as a bicep movement.  I see it as elbow flexion.  You see the leg curl as a hamstring movement.  I see it as knee flexion.  You see the situp as an ab movement.  I see it as hip/spinal flexion.  On and on...



Geez, what a party pooper, you take all the fun out body part training.


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

Im starting bodypart training because: When i do push pull legs, on push day i do chest than shoulders than triceps, the next day only my chest is sore, but when i do triceps on a day by itself they are sore the next day, I think when im doing a push the triceps are being fatigued and not overworked, its like doing a light weight set of 20 theyll get tired but they are not being overworked IMO

well im gonna start doing this max-ot workout(body part training): 
Monday Legs
Tuesday Arms(biceps, triceps, forearms), Abs
Wednesday  Shoulders, Traps
Thursday Back
Friday Chest

I will still be doing compund movements, but compounds that target the muscle I am traing that day example: Chest I will do Flat Bench Press, Shoulders I will do overhead press


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> Im starting bodypart training because: When i do push pull legs, on push day i do chest than shoulders than triceps, the next day only my chest is sore, but when i do triceps on a day by itself they are sore the next day, I think when im doing a push the triceps are being fatigued and not overworked, its like doing a light weight set of 20 theyll get tired but they are not being overworked IMO
> 
> well im gonna start doing this max-ot workout(body part training):
> Monday Legs
> ...




sorenss is not an indicator of a good workout.  It means nothing.

trust me, your triceps are being overworked with all that pressing.


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## Vieope (Apr 12, 2006)

_Why the body produces lactic acid? _


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

"You see a curl as a bicep movement. I see it as elbow flexion. You see the leg curl as a hamstring movement. I see it as knee flexion. You see the situp as an ab movement. I see it as hip/spinal flexion. On and on..."

Cowpimp why do you think that way we know that curls do other muscles but the muscle it targets are the biceps
The same for benchpress it also works triceps, and shoulders, but the chest is what is being worked the most


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Why the body produces lactic acid? _




it is a byprodcut of anerobic metablism.  It is produced because there is not enough oxygen present in the blood to convert energy quick enough for the task at hand.  that is why (in short).


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> Cowpimp why do you think that way we know that curls do other muscles but the muscle it targets are the biceps
> *The same for benchpress it also works triceps, and shoulders, but the chest is what is being worked the most*




that is complete bullshit.  you don't know that for sure.  you could be a shoulder bencher or a tricep bencher....it is horizontal abduction (or horizontal flexion depending on which anatomy book you want to go by).  it works many things.


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## Vieope (Apr 12, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> it is a byprodcut of anerobic metablism.  It is produced because there is not enough oxygen present in the blood to convert energy quick enough for the task at hand.  that is why (in short).


_Why everything with you must be in short, tiny, small?

Jesus! _


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## Bakerboy (Apr 12, 2006)

"...that is complete bullshit. you don't know that for sure. you could be a shoulder bencher or a tricep bencher...."

P-funk this is a very interesting point. It is also why some people prefer some exercises over others: depends on your specific structure, how you lift (technique), etc.. That is why lifting is both a science and an art.

It's always about the details...


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Why everything with you must be in short, tiny, small?
> 
> Jesus! _




because I am short.....sorry.


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

Bakerboy said:
			
		

> "...that is complete bullshit. you don't know that for sure. you could be a shoulder bencher or a tricep bencher...."
> 
> P-funk this is a very interesting point. It is also why some people prefer some exercises over others: depends on your specific structure, how you lift (technique), etc.. That is why lifting is both a science and an art.
> 
> It's always about the details...




It is also why people who overdo it on the bench press complain about their shoulder hurting....

....Have you ever heard someone overdo it on the bench press and complain about pec pain?  Nope!  It is always..."god, my shoulder is killing me."


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

go to this website: http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Directory.html , click on the muscle you want an exercise for and choose one, the exercise will target the muscle you choose but of course it also works other muscles, it tells you wich other muscles the exercise works


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> go to this website: http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Directory.html , click on the muscle you want an exercise for and choose one, the exercise will target the muscle you choose but of course it also works other muscles, it tells you wich other muscles the exercise works




ah...because the website says so......that is pretty archaic.

it is like the football coach that tests his players in the 2 mile run when that has nothing to do with playing football.  When asked about it he says "well, that is the way we always did it."

give me a break.


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

and still answer the question why people who overdo their bench press complain about their shoulder bothering them....can you explain that to me?


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

Squats and Lunges are targeted for the quads but also hit alot of other lower body muscles, your hitting the quads the most therefore it is the main muscle worked, why doesnt everybody else think like that, whats wrong with that?
I dont know why mostly everyone on this forum hates bodypart training,


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO PROVE BY THAT QUESTION
no one ever said that to me, I bench press alot and my shoulder never gets fucked up, they probably stretch there chest before working out and don't even know how to stretch there anterior deltoid
also i didnt say the benchpress doesnt work the shoulder, the chest is a bigger and stronger muscle thats why the shoulder would probably get injured and the chest would not
answer this: yesterday i only did bench press, my chest is sore as hell, but i dont feel anything in my shoulder .. can you explain that to me?


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> Squats and Lunges are targeted for the quads but also hit alot of other lower body muscles, your hitting the quads the most therefore it is the main muscle worked, why doesnt everybody else think like that, whats wrong with that?
> I dont know why mostly everyone on this forum hates bodypart training,



quad dominant exercises focus on the quads but hit the hammies also.

ham/hip dominant exercises focus on the glutes/hammies (hip extensors) but hit the quads also (depending on the exercise...ie...step ups, deadlifts from the floor to a certain extent depending on how you pull, etc...).

those are how we catergorize those exercises.  Quad or hip dominant.

in the upper body it is movement planes.....vertical and horizontal.....bench press is a horizontal movement.  It hits the chest, shoulders, triceps to the greatest extent.....the reason we don't like Body part training is because you are NEVER ISOLATING ONE MUSCLE GROUP.  that is not how the body works.  As a way to balance out our joints in a hopes to preven injury we group things in these movement planes so that we can manage volume at the joint more effeciently.  

It isn't like WE made this shit up here at this forum.  this is how a lot of people are training now, save for those that are still rocking D-bol or stuck in the same old.....the times move on...things evolve and we try and find more effecient ways of getting things done.

I have given the reason...you have provided no good reasons for body part training.  Your arguments lack content.


On a side note, I could see using body part training as a mesocycle for increasing volume before backing off and increasing the intensity, see-sawing between structural training/increases (muscluar hypertrophy) and functional training/increases (intra/inter muscular coordination, strength and power).

Please, try and keep on open mind.


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO PROVE BY THAT QUESTION
> no one ever said that to me, I bench press alot and my shoulder never gets fucked up, they probably stretch there chest before working out and don't even know how to stretch there anterior deltoid
> also i didnt say the benchpress doesnt work the shoulder, the chest is a bigger and stronger muscle thats why the shoulder would probably get injured and the chest would not
> answer this: yesterday i only did bench press, my chest is sore as hell, but i dont feel anything in my shoulder .. can you explain that to me?




great!  You are lucky.  Tell that to foremanrules or anyone else that has had shoulder impingment.  I am sure you chest is sore.  Who's chest doesn't get sore when they are pressing in a horizontal manner....that is the way the pectoralis fibers run/work.....DUH....


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## MCx2 (Apr 12, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> I am sure you chest is sore.  Who's chest doesn't get sore when they are pressing in a horizontal manner....that is the way the pectoralis fibers run/work.....DUH....



Apparently alot of people on this forum don't get sore. You said yourself soreness means nothing... You are starting to confuse me P-funk.....


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

im saying how come my shoulder or tricep isnt sore, im not talking about injured..
you are the one that needs to keep an open mind
when i do triceps on a day by themselves or just not with chest or anterior delt, they get worked not fatigued and i feel the soreness the next day (that is a good thing)
when i do a push, pull, legs like you say to do, on push days i do chest, shoulders, triceps
for example for chest exercises i do bench presses(regular), then i do shoulder presses, then i do triceps extensions, the triceps and anterior deltoid were already fatigued from the previous exercies, they are tired not worked, they are not sore the next day only the chest is because it was not pre-exhausted
fatigued and worked are two different things, just because a muscle is tired it does not mean there will be increased strength or hypertrophy or as much of hypertrophy or strength as being worked

its like doing a set of 20 reps on a light weight for the triceps and shoulders, they will become tired but not worked
bench press does not hit the shoulders and tris as hard as doing shoulder presses for the delts, and tricep extensions for the triceps, therefore they are not being worked enough for hypertrophy
bodypart training is better
this would be a great routine:
Monday - Chest/Biceps
Tuesday - off
Wednesday - Shoulders/Legs
Thursday - off
Friday - Back/Triceps
Saturday - off
Sunday - off 

And how many times do i have to say this, I know exercises do not isolate only one muscle but one muscle is worked alot more than the other ones that are worked!! 
such as lunges- quads are worked the most therefore it is a quad exercise!


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

give me a good reason on why you train like that and why bodypart training is stupid, and tell me my argument is not better than yours, if you dont want to listen fine, trust me every1 will receive more hypertrophy doing that routine above than a push, pull, legs 
use exrx.net pick the muscle than pick about 3-4 exercises for the major muscle groups(  Chest, Back, Legs) and choose about 2-3 exercises for minor muscle groups(biceps,triceps, shoulders)
other people post your opinion, what is better after you read this whole post(bodypart training, or push, pull, legs), If you disagree with me you are the ones missing out on a lot of hypertrophy and/or strength


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

whoever agrees with me(if anybody does) try this out for a routine
Monday - Chest/Biceps
Tuesday - off
Wednesday - Shoulders/Legs
Thursday - off
Friday - Back/Triceps
Saturday - off
Sunday - off 

Chest
Bench Press 3 sets
Flyes 2 sets
Incline Bench Press or Dips 2 sets

Biceps
Barbell Curls 3 sets
Concentration, Hammer, or EZ bar curls 2 sets

Shoulders
Military Press 3 sets
Upright Rows or Lateral Raises 3 sets
Reverse Flyes 2 sets

Legs
Squats 3 sets
SLD???s or hamstring curls 2 sets
Calve Raises 3 sets

Back
Pullups or Pull downs 3 sets
Bent-over rows 3 sets
Hyperextensions or deadlifts 3 sets

Triceps
Tricep Extensions or pushdowns 3 sets
CG bench Press 3 sets


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## MCx2 (Apr 12, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> give me a good reason on why you train like that and why bodypart training is stupid, and tell me my argument is not better than yours, if you dont want to listen fine, trust me every1 will receive more hypertrophy doing that routine above than a push, pull, legs
> use exrx.net pick the muscle than pick about 3-4 exercises for the major muscle groups(  Chest, Back, Legs) and choose about 2-3 exercises for minor muscle groups(biceps,triceps, shoulders)
> other people post your opinion, what is better after you read this whole post(bodypart training, or push, pull, legs), If you disagree with me you are the ones missing out on a lot of hypertrophy and/or strength




My theory on this whole argument is this: How long have people been training body parts? If thats what Arnold did to get as big as he was, then obviously thats good enough for me. Do you have success with the push - pull method? Then good, keep doing it. As much as the "pros" on this site will preach the fact there is no "best" workout, you would think that something that has been effective for as many years as it has been (bodypart training that is), wouldn't be such a "4 letter word". Yes, I like to keep an open mind about everything, which includes working out, but until I see drastic ill effects from the way I train (which is bodypart training) I will continue to do it...


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

FatCatMC said:
			
		

> Apparently alot of people on this forum don't get sore. You said yourself soreness means nothing... You are starting to confuse me P-funk.....




Soreness is not an indicator of a good workout.  What are you confused about?  Anyone can get sore from a workout....go in and do 30 sets of squats for 10 reps per set with a 4 count hold at the bottom of each rep and let me know if you get sore.....ofcourse you will!  Does that mean it was a safe effecitve workout?  No...But it was stupid.



> My theory on this whole argument is this: How long have people been training body parts? If thats what Arnold did to get as big as he was, then obviously thats good enough for me. Do you have success with the push - pull method? Then good, keep doing it. As much as the "pros" on this site will preach the fact there is no "best" workout, you would think that something that has been effective for as many years as it has been (bodypart training that is), wouldn't be such a "4 letter word". Yes, I like to keep an open mind about everything, which includes working out, but until I see drastic ill effects from the way I train (which is bodypart training) I will continue to do it...



my theory is this....Bodypart training came on the scene around the same time D-bol did.  Big surprise?  The stongmen before that era were doing what....total body training!  read up on some history.





> give me a good reason on why you train like that and why bodypart training is stupid, and tell me my argument is not better than yours, if you dont want to listen fine, trust me every1 will receive more hypertrophy doing that routine above than a push, pull, legs
> use exrx.net pick the muscle than pick about 3-4 exercises for the major muscle groups( Chest, Back, Legs) and choose about 2-3 exercises for minor muscle groups(biceps,triceps, shoulders)
> other people post your opinion, what is better after you read this whole post(bodypart training, or push, pull, legs), If you disagree with me you are the ones missing out on a lot of hypertrophy and/or strength



I gave you several good reasons. read the stickies if you want more.  I see no need to re-hash.

how many times do I have to say it.....the web page is old....that shit is old school.

regardless, you are getting all worked up...perhaps you missed the part where I said that I could see times when fitting body part training into the routine would be okay.....Not everything is set in stone.  Everything works but nothing works forever.  You seem to see things only one way.  I am telling you to look further.



> whoever agrees with me(if anybody does) try this out for a routine
> Monday - Chest/Biceps
> Tuesday - off
> Wednesday - Shoulders/Legs
> ...




that is not a training program.....training programs have loading parameters...training programs have periodization.....training programs have a begning and an end....your little workout has none of that.


Seriosly, grow up.  I sped a lot of time researching this stuff and reading and helping people and training people.  I don't give a fuck how you do things.  I am just saying that you need to open your eyes and check some new things out once in awhile and get out of the same old.  If you like the same old then there are tons of shitty bodybuilding forums out there re-hashing the same old bodybuilding routines and the same old garbage so I suggest you get the fuck out of here and go check them out......The training mods (wolf, cow, dale) and I are trying to do the best job we can in bringing the latest, most up to date, training information to this board....we frequently post studies, articles, and help people bring their routines full circle.......If you don't like the advice then don't take it.


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## MCx2 (Apr 12, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> my theory is this....Bodypart training came on the scene around the same time D-bol did.  Big surprise?  The stongmen before that era were doing what....total body training!  read up on some history.



So total body training is the same thing as push - pull? 

And this is what I'm confused about :



			
				P-funk said:
			
		

> Who's chest doesn't get sore when they are pressing in a horizontal manner....



I can find quite a few threads that answer that question. It's confusing that you are using that as an arguement when you being as knowledgable as you are on the subject know damn well there are people who dont get sore....


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

FatCatMC said:
			
		

> So total body training is the same thing as push - pull?
> 
> And this is what I'm confused about :
> 
> ...




you are taking it out of context.....He is saying he gets sore when he does bench press....I am saying...."yea...most people get sore when they do the bench press."  Whether you get sore on not is not a big deal though....that is why he is saying his triceps don't get sore so they must not be working.

Typically people get sore when they workout.....Sometimes they don't....Who gives a shit?  What the hell is so confusing about my statment?


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

FatCatMC said:
			
		

> So total body training is the same thing as push - pull?
> /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> ...


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

im only 15 years old,  i bench 130 max, im 235 pounds(prolly 30%bf), i just started lifting about 8 months ago and know more than all of you


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> im only 15 years old,  i bench 130 max, im 235 pounds(prolly 30%bf), i just started lifting about 8 months ago and know more than all of you




   

you have a long way to go kid.  well, at least now I wont argue with you since you know it all.


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

you need to grow up.


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

I am stupid!!


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

i can't get on, it makes me put in my name and password and still does not work


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

what do you have to do to become a moderator?


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

p-funk you know im righ u just dont want to admit it, i know you are writing up a body part routine right now


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

yea your the dumb one the owner should ban you from this site


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

yea your the one editing my stuff making it look like i said, I am stupid!
how old are you, you are the one that needs to grow up


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

I hope that foremanrules sees this thread so that he can call you a kid.....


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> yea your the one editing my stuff making it look like i said, I am stupid!
> how old are you, you are the one that needs to grow up




if you don't behave, you little child, i will start editing your stuff.


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

why would you say i need to grow up, i make sense you do not


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## AKIRA (Apr 12, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> whoever agrees with me(if anybody does) try this out for a routine
> Monday - Chest/Biceps
> Tuesday - off
> Wednesday - Shoulders/Legs
> ...



Hmm lets see.  Triceps are worked everyday you work out (3 times).  Biceps are worked out on two days.  And you have just 2 exercises for the legs (minus the calfs).  I know you dont have rest, tempo, reps, warm ups, etc included, but this sucks.

However, I am not totally against you.  Before I came on here I did as you did, argued with the moderators, but I also asked questions.  Ultimately, I had to do the push/pull/leg routine to have some grounds to speak off of.

And I know EXACTLY what youre talking about when you tried this.  On a push day, your chest wouldnt get sore?  Is that what you said?  Yeah me too.  SOmetimes.  That week though, my triceps would be sore the next day.  The following week, my chest was sore, while my triceps were not.  And guess what, this week the front of my shoulders were sore.  So maybe you didnt stick to it enough.

I am having the same problem with my pull days, nothing is sore!  Then again, back in my body part days, my back and bis were always a fucking bitch to get sore.  Only difference from then and now, is now my back is a helluva lot stronger (right now, not my deadlifts) and my arms are bigger, not to mention . more 'cut.'

Either way though, I think any program can work, but if there not a good balance, then youll either be unproportioned (poor ryan) or be prone to an upcoming injury.

Ont he soreness note, yes it is nice to have.  It gives you a satifying feeling the next day knowing you tore that gym up, but on days I havent gotten sore (remember my push day example?), the next week I increase the intesity, reps, or decrease the rest interval.  

Id like to see what you DID do on your push day.  That way we can maybe see why some muscle may be more sore than others.  Or we can see if the push day just sucks.

Or and to whomever is editing his shit, dont yet.  I think this is a good debate.


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

AKIRA said:
			
		

> Or and to whomever is editing his shit, dont yet.  I think this is a good debate.




no one edits anything....this isn't t-bag.com......The only person I edit is kefe when he is making fun of someone.


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## AKIRA (Apr 12, 2006)

FatCatMC said:
			
		

> My theory on this whole argument is this: How long have people been training body parts? If thats what Arnold did to get as big as he was, then obviously thats good enough for me.



Dont forget though, back when he was in his prime, he was juiced.  People on gear have different workouts than naturals due to recovery time.  They can workout everyday, which I believe Arnold did.  I think thats what P-Funk was referring to when he mentioned D-bol.

ANother thing you have to remember was back then, the bodybuilders were basically the half-assed trainers.  They knew what worked for them, so when someone came along asking questions, they told them what they did.  All these guys knew were their own bodies and their own 'dosages.'  No science, no internet, no debates, no nutrional advice on almost every food.

Their exercises did work however, those are the kind of facts that come from our history that might as well be stapled.

Then there are the guys that DID do it naturally, but who was it?  And were they might as well genetic freaks?  Prolly.


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## AKIRA (Apr 12, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> no one edits anything....this isn't t-bag.com......The only person I edit is kefe when he is making fun of someone.




I figured it wasnt 'edited' cuz wed see it on the bottom of each post.  However, I dont think its him.


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

he did edit one of my posts, but that alright
here was my routine I rest 90-120 sec between sets, i don't know my exact tempo ,on all exercises on the negative is slow, the neutral is 0 except on last rep i might pause for a sec, and the positive is as fast as i can do it(like 3 sec)
I traine to failure i make sure i don't give up b4 i hit failure, i give it my all, Ill admit, when i first started training i wasnt giving it my all. 

On push day i do chest, anterior delts, and triceps
Flat Bench Press 3 sets 4-8 reps
Flyes- 2 sets 4-8 reps
Dips i do them with cables- 3 sets 6-10 reps
Overhead Press- 3 sets 6-10 reps
3 sets triceps extensions- 4-8 reps


----------



## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

by the way i dont do warmups i might stretch a little be4 a set, and I dont care about leg size i just want strength and endurance


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## MCx2 (Apr 12, 2006)

AKIRA said:
			
		

> Dont forget though, back when he was in his prime, he was juiced.  People on gear have different workouts than naturals due to recovery time.  They can workout everyday, which I believe Arnold did.  I think thats what P-Funk was referring to when he mentioned D-bol.



I think it's pretty unrealstic to believe that I'll ever be as big as Arnold, thats not the point I was making. The point I was trying to make is that it seems the "pros" on this site make bodypart training sound like it's a complete waste of time. Granted I'm a relative beginer (only training seriously for 7 months), I have seen fantastic gains from the workout I have been following, and I am very pleased with my results. I'm a singer, I can't read music but in my opinion (and most others that have heard me) I am a DAMN good singer. Just because I don't know what note I'm looking at on a piece of paper, doesn't mean I can't sing it. The same goes for working out. I have an excelent mind-to-muscle connection. I can feel each muscle doing what they are supposed to be doing during any given exerscise. Just because I don't know what the muscle is called doesn't mean I'm not using it right. I have noticed that just like anything else in this world, common sense will always win, and over-analyzing things is IMO a waste of time. With the little research that I've done in reguards to working out, there is something that is constant in every piece of litterature that I read and that is: "Simple is better", and so far that has done wonders for me. Like I said before, I'll never be as big as Arnold, and thats not my goal anyway. I don't disagree that other methods are effective (perhaps even more effective) but if someone insists on using one method over another at least point them in the right direction instead of just telling them their workout sucks...


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## soxmuscle (Apr 12, 2006)

I had a most a post in regards to body part training and movement training, and it got lost in the shuffle, but I was meaning to reply to Patrick.

The reason I didnt enjoy my push days as much is because my triceps would be so dead, that it would effect my shoulders.  If it only affected my triceps, then as you previously said, thats my goal, but if its affecting my shoulders and in some cases, my chest, is it really worth while to perform that style of training?

I've been all over the place with my training since I stopped HIT over a month ago, but this week I went back to bodypart training, and have enjoyed it for the most part.

We shall see, but read the first part.


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## P-funk (Apr 12, 2006)

soxmuscle said:
			
		

> I had a most a post in regards to body part training and movement training, and it got lost in the shuffle, but I was meaning to reply to Patrick.
> 
> The reason I didnt enjoy my push days as much is because my triceps would be so dead, that it would effect my shoulders.  If it only affected my triceps, then as you previously said, thats my goal, but if its affecting my shoulders and in some cases, my chest, is it really worth while to perform that style of training?
> 
> ...




why were you doing your triceps in the middle of the workout?

Bench press
DB shoulder press
skull crushers

How can that affect your shoulders?  You are doing it at the end of the workout.


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## furion joe (Apr 12, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> I spend a lot of time researching this stuff and reading and helping people and training people.  I don't give a fuck how you do things.  I am just saying that you need to open your eyes and check some new things out once in awhile and get out of the same old.  If you like the same old then there are tons of shitty bodybuilding forums out there re-hashing the same old bodybuilding routines and the same old garbage so I suggest you get the fuck out of here and go check them out......The training mods (wolf, cow, dale) and I are trying to do the best job we can in bringing the latest, most up to date, training information to this board....we frequently post studies, articles, and help people bring their routines full circle.......If you don't like the advice then don't take it.



That's cool man; your time spent here (as well as all the others) is very much appreciated.   



And congratulations there CowPimp!  Totally missed the new title...well deserved.


----------



## soxmuscle (Apr 12, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> why were you doing your triceps in the middle of the workout?
> 
> Bench press
> DB shoulder press
> ...



I suppose youre right, and I am wrong.  Nothing new here.  I've always done Bench press, Military press, and then Dips as you layed out, but for some reason I just haven't liked it as much.  Perhaps it's another one of those mind things that I so frequently have.

I'm still trying to put together a routine, so odds are, since by all accounts movement training is superior to body part training, I will be back.


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## Bakerboy (Apr 12, 2006)

Yes, I agree P-funk and the rest of the moderators deserve some respect once and a while...... They put a lot of time into giving out the most current 
info they can get their hands on... Thanks guys we  you.....

Raise your protein shakes in the air. Let's give it up for the moderators


----------



## CowPimp (Apr 12, 2006)

Okay, let me set the record straight on why I don't like body part training.  It is NOT because it doesn't work.  It works, and it works well.  There are a Hell of a lot of successful bodybuilders: professionals, recreational, natural, juiced, or whatever that use body part splits.  No one is suggesting it doesn't work well for hypertrophy.  

My beef is with the fact that it becomes harder to balance out the volume of antagonistic muscle groups/movements surrounding a joint.  This makes it that much harder to create a stable joint, hence a lot of people's shoulder (Too much damned pressing and training of anterior musculature), knee (Too many quad-dominant exercises with a total disregard for the posterior chain), and lower back problems (A weak posterior chain from the top to bottom).  So, I will take a routine that works, and affords me the ability to properly equalize my routine on both sides so as to help prevent injuries and correct imbalances.

Another problem I have with the body part split is the whole leg day crap.  Why is it that everyone is training their lower body 1 day each week, but they train their upper body an additional 3-4 days each week?  Something seems wrong to me here.

My final qualm with body part training is that it generally leads to always performing higher volume/lower frequency routines.  Is there anything wrong with this?  Certainly not, but you still shouldn't do it ALL the time.  Cycling frequency and volume levels would make a lot more sense.  In fact, if I ever get more focused on gaining mass, then I will probably alter my routine to increase the volume for each body part worked by reduce the frequency.


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## maxpro2 (Apr 12, 2006)

> Another problem I have with the body part split is the whole leg day crap. *Why is it that everyone is training their lower body 1 day each week*, but they train their upper body an additional 3-4 days each week? Something seems wrong to me here.



Some people like being able to walk easily most of the week . And for me at least, I feel my legs are growing and making strength gains just fine once a week, in comparison to my upper body which needs to be stimulated more frequently. 

Great points though.


----------



## CowPimp (Apr 12, 2006)

MWpro said:
			
		

> Some people like being able to walk easily most of the week . And for me at least, I feel my legs are growing and making strength gains just fine once a week, in comparison to my upper body which needs to be stimulated more frequently.
> 
> Great points though.



Pfft, who needs to walk?  Hehe.  

Anyway, all the more reason to train your legs more frequently.  Lower the volume each session while increasing the frequency of training the body part and voila, you can now walk AND maintain the same total volume of lower body exercises each week.


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## shiznit2169 (Apr 12, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Okay, let me set the record straight on why I don't like body part training.  It is NOT because it doesn't work.  It works, and it works well.  There are a Hell of a lot of successful bodybuilders: professionals, recreational, natural, juiced, or whatever that use body part splits.  No one is suggesting it doesn't work well for hypertrophy.
> 
> My beef is with the fact that it becomes harder to balance out the volume of antagonistic muscle groups/movements surrounding a joint.  This makes it that much harder to create a stable joint, hence a lot of people's shoulder (Too much damned pressing and training of anterior musculature), knee (Too many quad-dominant exercises with a total disregard for the posterior chain), and lower back problems (A weak posterior chain from the top to bottom).  So, I will take a routine that works, and affords me the ability to properly equalize my routine on both sides so as to help prevent injuries and correct imbalances.
> 
> ...



This is exactly why i am a member here. I have learned a lot from all of you moderators. I used to do bodyparts only and followed a bunch of shit professionals would suggest in magazines. Ever since then, i have been constantly reading articles and asking for advice. Well, it paid off and my strength/gains have soared. 

I'm starting to wonder if mike456 is Johhhhnny's son. He said he is 15 years old, 235 pounds, 30% BF, and he knows everything? Oh man, i cannot wait for his future idiotic posts.


----------



## shiznit2169 (Apr 12, 2006)

> Another problem I have with the body part split is the whole leg day crap. Why is it that everyone is training their lower body 1 day each week, but they train their upper body an additional 3-4 days each week? Something seems wrong to me here.



My biggest guess is because most people hate doing legs. Honestly, i used to be a victim myself. I absolutely hated doing legs and was always an "upper body" type of guy when i first started lifting because i loved the feeling of having a pump. That's why you see so many guys with big chests and chicken legs.

Ten months later, legs and back are my two favorite parts to work on. Mainly due to deadlifts, SLDL's, squats, front squats, pullups, pulldowns, and rows.


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

im 15 years old, my max bench was 130 like 2months ago(havent maxed out in a while) but i did 120 for 10 yesterday, im 22, i have 24.5% bodyfat, Im not Johhhhnny's son, i do not know everything, but i am 99% sure i know more than you- shiznit. Yea P-funk knows more than me, but i still think he is wrong about body part training, whatever.


----------



## shiznit2169 (Apr 12, 2006)

> *im 15 years old*, my max bench was 130 like 2months ago(havent maxed out in a while) but i did 120 for 10 yesterday, *im 22*, i have 24.5% bodyfat, Im not Johhhhnny's son, i do not know everything, *but i am 99% sure i know more than you- shiznit*. Yea P-funk knows more than me, but i still think he is wrong about body part training, whatever.




  

You say you are 15 .. and then you say you are 22? 

You know more than me? Well judging by your posts and how you preach bodyparts training style, I advise you to keep doing what you're doing and then I'll hear about your injury report in a couple weeks.


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

*.*

yea ok buddy, that was either a typo or a edit i didnt mean to type that im 22( i have no idea how the hell that got in there), im a sophmore in highschool, i bet by next year with my style of training ill woop ur ass, ill be 16 and how old will u be
dont just say bodypart training is stupid, give your reason or else ur the stupid 1
did u even understand why i think bodypart training is better, post what i meant and then tell me whats wrong about that or else just keep ur dumbass comments out of the thread


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## MyK (Apr 12, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> yea ok buddy, that was either a typo or a edit i didnt mean to type *that im 22*( i have no idea how the hell that got in there), *im a sophmore in highschool*, i bet by next year with my style of training ill woop ur ass, *ill be 16* and how old will u be
> dont just say bodypart training is stupid, give your reason or else ur the stupid 1
> did u even understand why i think bodypart training is better, post what i meant and then tell me whats wrong about that or else just keep ur dumbass comments out of the thread




  

what the fucks wrong with you?


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

myk read the previous messages if ur confused: i bymistake wrote im 22, and shiznit realized it, in the post u quoted i was saying it was a typo(mistake)

I AM A 15 YEAR OLD SOPHMORE IN HIGHSCHOOL


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## MyK (Apr 12, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> myk read the previous messages if ur confused: i bymistake wrote im 22, and shiznit realized it, in the post u quoted i was saying it was a typo(mistake)
> 
> I AM A 15 YEAR OLD SOPHMORE IN HIGHSCHOOL



either your really weird or someone is fucking with your posts!


----------



## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

sum1s fuckin with my posts, please stop


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## mike456 (Apr 12, 2006)

anyway, I am 15 years old- do you understand that myk


----------



## AKIRA (Apr 12, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Okay, let me set the record straight on why I don't like body part training.  It is NOT because it doesn't work.  It works, and it works well.  There are a Hell of a lot of successful bodybuilders: professionals, recreational, natural, juiced, or whatever that use body part splits.  No one is suggesting it doesn't work well for hypertrophy.
> 
> My beef is with the fact that it becomes harder to balance out the volume of antagonistic muscle groups/movements surrounding a joint.  This makes it that much harder to create a stable joint, hence a lot of people's shoulder (Too much damned pressing and training of anterior musculature), knee (Too many quad-dominant exercises with a total disregard for the posterior chain), and lower back problems (A weak posterior chain from the top to bottom).  So, I will take a routine that works, and affords me the ability to properly equalize my routine on both sides so as to help prevent injuries and correct imbalances.
> 
> ...




Yeah thats what I was thinking..."balance."  Id like to do bodypart training again and prolly will in a few weeks, but it wont be the same as it was before cuz of balance.

The workout mike posted was too much of a good thing.  And now after seeing his push day, I dont see shit for his posterior deltoids or laterals.  Do they need to be done?  I dont know, I am not you.  Would I recommend them? Sure, why else are we going to gyms?

Bodypart working works even if its not balanced, but then we gotta look at goals.  Is an injury a goal? Prolly not.

Also, besides injury, bodypart training also may incorporate overtraining, which I believe NONE of us want.  But then THAT has to do with your split.  Is it a 3 day split, 4 , 5 etc.  There are so many variables.



			
				CowPimp said:
			
		

> Another problem I have with the body part split is the whole leg day crap.  Why is it that everyone is training their lower body 1 day each week, but they train their upper body an additional 3-4 days each week?  Something seems wrong to me here.



I am not sure if a push/pull/leg routine follows through this as its a 3 day split.  I like doing my whole leg day on one day.  Its hard as hell, but if it can be done with enough intensity and sufficient volume, why not, you sure as hell arent going to overtrain it.

Only reason why I quoted that is when I FIRST started the push/pull/leg routine, I felt as if I could do more, so I went back to the gym and did more push/pulls but lighter.  They worked fine, but I was still doing only 1 leg day a week.  Why didnt I do a light leg day too?  Cuz I was sore!  So I thought, well shit, if I figured out a way to get my legs THAT sore, why couldnt I with the upper body?  So I went back to the drawing board and guess what, I am still there.

Like someone said, this shit is an art.  No matter what the workout style you have, you know what works for YOU.  Dont forget that some of these members/moderators are trainers, so they have to be able to not only show their clients how to do these exercises, but 'why' also.  The 'why' explains movements, not bodyparts.

A client may ask their trainer why they do certain workouts that are not in THEIR program and the trainer could say its for powerlifting, olympic, or even just cuz of experience.  The trainers own workout should work for a client, but again, lots a variables have to be met or measured.

In the end, I dont think bodypart training is worse or better than a movement training regime.  If both are balanced, both should work for anyone.


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## P-funk (Apr 13, 2006)

soxmuscle said:
			
		

> I suppose youre right, and I am wrong.  Nothing new here.  I've always done Bench press, Military press, and then Dips as you layed out, but for some reason I just haven't liked it as much.  Perhaps it's another one of those mind things that I so frequently have.
> 
> I'm still trying to put together a routine, so odds are, since by all accounts movement training is superior to body part training, I will be back.




well, those are three money exercises that are all hitting the same type of musculature......So, ofcourse, by the time you get to dips you are going to be fried to hell!  This is also the reason why I don't do it as a push day and a pull day.  I do total upper body so that I can get in, hit what I need to hit and get out and things don't affect the other because I balance intensity between the movement planes...no what I mean?

It has nothing to do with me being right and you being wrong.  It has everything to do with your program set up.  I would have done upper/lower and hit the movement planes with different loading schemes on both days rather then push/pull and heavy on one day.


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## CowPimp (Apr 13, 2006)

AKIRA said:
			
		

> I am not sure if a push/pull/leg routine follows through this as its a 3 day split.  I like doing my whole leg day on one day.  Its hard as hell, but if it can be done with enough intensity and sufficient volume, why not, you sure as hell arent going to overtrain it.
> 
> Only reason why I quoted that is when I FIRST started the push/pull/leg routine, I felt as if I could do more, so I went back to the gym and did more push/pulls but lighter.  They worked fine, but I was still doing only 1 leg day a week.  Why didnt I do a light leg day too?  Cuz I was sore!  So I thought, well shit, if I figured out a way to get my legs THAT sore, why couldnt I with the upper body?  So I went back to the drawing board and guess what, I am still there.
> 
> ...



There's nothing wrong with push-pull-legs.  I was referring to the chest, back, shoulders, arms, and legs split mostly.  Yeah, one day can be enough, but if you want to increase the frequency of your training (Total training in this case) then you should want to increase this factor for your legs as well, no just upper body musculature.  Your lower body will adapt.  It can handle being trained more than once each week.


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## nsimmons (Apr 13, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> anyway, I am 15 years old- do you understand that myk



To quote denis leary "You're 15 years old, you don't know shit about shit, and pull up your fucking pants!"

Your program works because youre a fat ass whos probably never exercised before. I used traditional body part programs before, and i made good progress on them. Although Ive made the most progress in the least amount of time using compoud movements. Ohh the time wasted isolating muscles...so foolish

Deads, squats, bench, pullups, Overhead press, what else do you need?


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## mike456 (Apr 13, 2006)

i do lateral deltoids on pull day(upright rows) and i don't do posterior, they get hit when i do bent-over rows

shut the hell up nsimmons, u dont know shit about shit, what the fck does it have do with that im fat im prolly more athletic than you. theres nothing wrong with bodypart training and theres nothing wrong with push, pull, legs they will both work if you train hard and have good exercises, but i still think bodypart training has its advantages, and all those exercises you mentioned are in the routine I posted, i noticed every1 just kisses the mods asses, they are smart but i bet if they said bodypart training is good you would agree, most of you don't have a mind of your own, you just listen to the mods, what ever they say u back them up, all of you whhy dont u post why i think bodypart training is better and whats wrong about it, your prolly too stupid to understand what i was tryin to say in the previous posts.


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## mike456 (Apr 13, 2006)

ill try to explain why i think bodypart training is better one more time

ON push days most people do Chest, than Shoulders, than triceps

mostly all the chest exercises you do use the shoulders to assist them to complete the lift you are doing, now lets say your done with chest, your shoulders are tired, you cant do the weight you would normally be able to do, most people think this is a good thing, the thing is your shoulders are just fatigued and not worked properly, you werent targeting the shoulder with a hard 6-10 reps-which is what you should be doing for muscle growth, for example its like you just did a shoulder press with a light weight for 20 reps, they will be tired but they were not worked properly for muscle growth, now lets say you finished the shoulders with your lighter weight because they were fatigued, now its time to do triceps- oh no, you just did pressing movements for your chest, then overhead presses for your shoulders, your triceps are tired as hell, just like last time you will use a way lighter weight for the triceps than you would normally be able to do if they were fresh, again they didnt get hit hard with 6-10 reps, for example its like you did 30 reps of skull crushers your triceps are done but they didnt get worked properly for hypertrophy! do you get it now, whats negative about bodypart training,your muscles that you  will be working that day will be fresh, and youll hit them hard with the heavy weight you usually use, with a push, pull, legs i bet your chest and back were growing because those are the probably the muscles you hit first and they were fresh, but those poor shoulders, triceps, and biceps are getting little to no results!


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## PTYP (Apr 13, 2006)

Sounds to me like Mike456 gets his training philosophies from Konan.


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## mike456 (Apr 13, 2006)

whatever im sick of trying to convince people to train right 
u do it your way, ill do it my way


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## tucker01 (Apr 13, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> whatever im sick of trying to convince people to train right
> u do it your way, ill do it my way


 
How long have you been training?

How many clients have you trained and for how long?

How much research have you done on this subject?


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## mike456 (Apr 13, 2006)

i been training since june, so about 11 months, I havent trained any clients i did help out a couple of friends though- im 15 years old, all i think about is bodybuilding, ive done a shitload of research


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## mike456 (Apr 13, 2006)

Ian Daniel let me ask you this, what do you think is so negative about bodypart training, and after you read my post don't u think it is better, if u understood and agreed with my post, they keep talkin about injury- what the hell does that have to do with doing a push, pull, legs, or bodypart training, most of them just say im stupid and dont give a reason, does this make any sense to you, they just agree with the mods, they don't have a mind of ther own. this thread just keeps gettin me pissed off


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## tucker01 (Apr 13, 2006)

so reference something to support your claims. And Muscle and Fitness is not research. I am talking about studies. 

And in 11 months at 15 I highly doubt you would understand what type of research would be needed to make any reccommendations.


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## mike456 (Apr 13, 2006)

i am my reference- trial and error and some common sense
did u ever here of max-ot training they have the same thinking as me- fatigued muscles and worked muscles are two different things
you can go to this web page, you have to register, but its free- http://www.ast-ss.com/max-ot/max-ot_intro.asp 
 read if u want to understand more, im not saying just cause they wrote it its true, its that it makes sense


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## tucker01 (Apr 13, 2006)

So you have basically no understanding of the mechanics of the body?

Nor any legit sources to reference?

You have been training for 11 months,  and have read shit all. Talk in 10 years when your ignorance has left you with a screwed up shoulder or back


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## mike456 (Apr 13, 2006)

fu


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## mike456 (Apr 13, 2006)

you never answered my question so just shut up


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## tucker01 (Apr 13, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> fu


 
Point proven


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## tucker01 (Apr 13, 2006)

mike456 said:
			
		

> you never answered my question so just shut up


 
Your question has been answered many times.  If you like to do a body part workout and that gives you the results you like.  Then stick to it.

You just can't get your dick out of a body part workout to realize there are many ways to train.  Maybe in a few years when you mature and realize you don't know everything


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## mike456 (Apr 13, 2006)

u didnt answer my question so shut the hell up


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## CowPimp (Apr 13, 2006)

furion joe said:
			
		

> And congratulations there CowPimp!  Totally missed the new title...well deserved.



Thanks man.  I appreciate the kind words.


----------



## CowPimp (Apr 13, 2006)

> i do lateral deltoids on pull day(upright rows) and i don't do posterior, they get hit when i do bent-over rows



You could apply the same philosophy to lateral deltoids.  They are used to a large degree when overhead pressing.  Abduction at the shoulder joint (On the frontal plane) is largely carried out by the lateral deltoids.




> shut the hell up nsimmons, u dont know shit about shit, what the fck does it have do with that im fat im prolly more athletic than you. theres nothing wrong with bodypart training and theres nothing wrong with push, pull, legs they will both work if you train hard and have good exercises, but i still think bodypart training has its advantages, and all those exercises you mentioned are in the routine I posted, i noticed every1 just kisses the mods asses, they are smart but i bet if they said bodypart training is good you would agree, most of you don't have a mind of your own, you just listen to the mods, what ever they say u back them up, all of you whhy dont u post why i think bodypart training is better and whats wrong about it, your prolly too stupid to understand what i was tryin to say in the previous posts.



Calm down.  The problem is that you have no argument, not that people are kissing the mod's asses.  Now, me and P-funk already espoused certain benefits of body part training.  Further, a body part split can be put together to promote a balanced physique, it is just more troublesome.  It's already been stated that not only do body part splits work, but it is a great way to ramp up the total volume of your training during an accumulation phase.




> ill try to explain why i think bodypart training is better one more time
> 
> ON push days most people do Chest, than Shoulders, than triceps
> 
> mostly all the chest exercises you do use the shoulders to assist them to complete the lift you are doing, now lets say your done with chest, your shoulders are tired, you cant do the weight you would normally be able to do, most people think this is a good thing, the thing is your shoulders are just fatigued and not worked properly, you werent targeting the shoulder with a hard 6-10 reps-which is what you should be doing for muscle growth, for example its like you just did a shoulder press with a light weight for 20 reps, they will be tired but they were not worked properly for muscle growth, now lets say you finished the shoulders with your lighter weight because they were fatigued, now its time to do triceps- oh no, you just did pressing movements for your chest, then overhead presses for your shoulders, your triceps are tired as hell, just like last time you will use a way lighter weight for the triceps than you would normally be able to do if they were fresh, again they didnt get hit hard with 6-10 reps, for example its like you did 30 reps of skull crushers your triceps are done but they didnt get worked properly for hypertrophy! do you get it now, whats negative about bodypart training,your muscles that you will be working that day will be fresh, and youll hit them hard with the heavy weight you usually use, with a push, pull, legs i bet your chest and back were growing because those are the probably the muscles you hit first and they were fresh, but those poor shoulders, triceps, and biceps are getting little to no results!



Do you understand why your shoulders are fatigued when you come to overhead pressing?  Because they have already been worked!  Goal achieved, problem solved.  Using your logic, you should alternate the order of your exercises every session, but I bet you don't do that.

Furthermore, that problem is very easy to solve.  How about you alternate which plane you press on at the beginning of each session.  Week 1 you emphasize the horizontal plane, and week 2 you emphasize the vertical plane.  You could also alternate; you're still thinking too much in terms of body parts, and that body parts have to proceed one another.  Example:

Instead of doing...
Bench Press
Incline DB Press
Military Press
DB Arnold Press
Skullcrushers

You could do...
Bench Press
Military Press
Incline DB Press
DB Arnold Press
Skullcrushers

Or...
Week 1:
Military Press
Bench Press
DB Arnold Press
Incline DB Press
Skullcrushers

Week 2:
Bench Press
Military Press
Incline DB Press
DB Arnold Press
Skullcrushers


See what I mean?  Get creative.  Your "problem" is solved.  However, you shoulders are getting subjected to plenty of training stimuli no matter which way you do it, so you should be growing regardless.  Your pseudoscience bodybuilding theories that lack any scientific or empirical evidence aren't cutting it.


----------



## furion joe (Apr 13, 2006)

AKIRA said:
			
		

> ...this shit is an art.  No matter what the workout style you have, you know what works for YOU.  Dont forget that some of these members/moderators are trainers, so they have to be able to not only show their clients how to do these exercises, but 'why' also.  The 'why' explains movements, not bodyparts.



Well said AKIRA...





			
				CowPimp said:
			
		

> It is true.  Guess what other muscles work when you are overhead pressing?  Your trapezius works to superiorly rotate the scapula to get a full range of motion.  Do you dumbbell pullovers for your chest?  Well, you're working your lats too.  You like to do WG pullups?  Well, the chest assist in shoulder adduction in this movement.
> 
> Let's not discount stabilizers either.  Are you retracting your scapula and firing your lats to stabilize the bar during a bench press?  Well, probably not, most people bench wrong, but you should be!  Are you keeping your spine in a neutral position when deadlifting?  Well, that takes an assload of isometric contraction from muscles all up and down your back, but the primary movement is still hip extension and knee extension, which is carried out by the lower body.
> 
> You see a curl as a bicep movement.  I see it as elbow flexion.  You see the leg curl as a hamstring movement.  I see it as knee flexion.  You see the situp as an ab movement.  I see it as hip/spinal flexion.  On and on...



Even though my previous post was in jest and in agreement (containing this statement), it is one that should not be taken lightly.  It's important to look at exercises in their entirety so that one can reap the benefits from the basic understanding of how the body works in relation to movements.


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## furion joe (Apr 13, 2006)

IainDaniel said:
			
		

> Maybe in a few years when you mature and realize you don't know everything



Yeah, that sux huh?  





			
				CowPimp said:
			
		

> Thanks man.  I appreciate the kind words.



You're welcome, and best of luck; I'm sure you'll do a great job.


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## mike456 (Apr 13, 2006)

fatigued and worked are two different, things, ill try switchin up the exercises, thanx for the advice


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## Bakerboy (Apr 13, 2006)

"fatigued and worked are two different, things, ill try switchin up the exercises, thanx for the advice"

Could this be peace in the middle east!!! 

It's not about who  s  the loudest. We are not kissing anyones ass. We all (most of us) just want to use this site to pass on the knowledge we have as well as listen to the researched, life experience of others. Nobody knows everything about training, that's why we are here. I like you kid cause you got balls and from your last post it shows you are humble enough to take some well put advice. It takes a long time to figure out a good program. At least you are smart enough to get on this site and ask questions...


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## mike456 (Apr 13, 2006)

thnx alot bakerboy, im gonna stick to a  push, pull, legs for a couple of months and see if it does me wonders like it does for all of you, i just posted what im gonna do in another thread- check it out


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## Steed77 (Apr 13, 2006)

WOW...I had no idea that this thread would be so entertaining...thanks everyone Good stuff...LMAO!

Anyway, I do appreciate eveyone's input on the question at hand about Body-Part Training. I have to say...it does make more "sense" to do compound movements instead of Body-Part Training, because that is how we use our bodies on a day-to-day basis.  

Also, whether you are doing Body-Part Training, or Upper/Lower, or Push/Pull/Legs...it is always good to switch things up. If we stick with the same routine, it not only gets boring, but our bodies adapt...which will mosty likely lead to a plateu. 

IMO...the more variety of exercises/routines you can implement, the better off you will be.


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## soxmuscle (Apr 13, 2006)

shiznit>mike


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