# Brown Rice as good as Oats in PWO shake?



## ddawg (May 28, 2006)

I don't like an insulin spike in my PWO shake because I'm kind of skinny fat and so I gain fat fairly easily.  I had been using just quick oats and whey and getting about 80g of carbs PWO which is about 120g of oatmeal.  I'd much rather eat the oatmeal but I know you really should have a shake PWO so I was wondering if grinding some brown rice  in my shake instead of using the quick oats would be just as good?  Or is there anything else or a combination of things that would get the job done but not cause the massive insulin spike like dextrose does?


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## Tough Old Man (May 28, 2006)

PWO you have a window there. You can take in just about any type of carbs without harm. In a matter of fact a lot recommend you to take in dextrose which would be a corn sugar. Does that tell you anything?

Grind your oats and you have a fairly fast acting carb with lots of fiber. I personally thinks it's the best carb PWO if your carb sensitive and staying low in carb intake. You need Fibers......and this will do it.    JMO


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## juggernaut (May 28, 2006)

gotta disagree, tough. I used a spike for the longest time and all it did was fatten me up. Granted, my diet was somewhat shitty, but when I started taking Emma's advice and do a 1/2 cup of old fashioned oats, a 1/2 banana and whey things started getting better.


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## juggernaut (May 28, 2006)

personally, I dont think you can beat oats. Just keep using it.


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## Emma-Leigh (May 29, 2006)

ddawg said:
			
		

> I don't like an insulin spike in my PWO shake because I'm kind of skinny fat and so I gain fat fairly easily.  I had been using just quick oats and whey and getting about 80g of carbs PWO which is about 120g of oatmeal.  I'd much rather eat the oatmeal but I know you really should have a shake PWO so I was wondering if grinding some brown rice  in my shake instead of using the quick oats would be just as good?  Or is there anything else or a combination of things that would get the job done but not cause the massive insulin spike like dextrose does?


Unless you are going to cook that brown rice first, then don't do it... Although COOKED brown rice (or, even better, white rice) would be ok, if you do not cook it your body is not able to correctly digest the carb present... So you will be wasting your time (not only that, but you will likely give yourself a gut ache).

Quick oats are different - they are pre-steamed (twice), rolled and chopped. So you don't need to cook these again.

If you want to stick to oats, then this is fine, but personally, I would think about skim milk and a very ripe banana... Or what about a bagel or some cooked white rice (you could make whey, skim milk and rice-pudding!!  )!!


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## juggernaut (May 29, 2006)

I am emma's wannabe love child. I love this woman-she is the shit!!!!!


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## Trouble (May 29, 2006)

Unless your blood glucose is as steady as a rock, think twice about using the instant oats - it defeats the purpose of their use, which is to provide slow release carbs via soluble fiber slowing of whey protein digestion. That fiber release is compromised by oat processing for the quick oats variety.

There is little point in using rice with whey.  You may as well use the banana, or better yet, berries, which are little more forgiving in their insulin spiking capacity when added to the glucogenic load (that is, the amino acids that are readily converted directly to glucose once they enter your liver for processing).

If you have problems with oats causing a little too much of drop in blood glucose during your workout, use barley bran, which is becoming an increasingly popular and sensible alternative to the standard use of steel cut oats as an additional carb source to bridge the fast release of glucose from insulogenic amino acids in whey and the drop that occurs once fast digesting whey is absorbed and processed in your gut.


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## juggernaut (May 29, 2006)

so if he doesnt use quick oats and cant find barley anywhere, old fashioned oats are the best thing right? 
I'm not sure I follow. 
Every time I used a high GI, I got fat and never looked completely sliced at a show. When I did the OF oats, banana and whey, I actually looked better.


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## VanessaNicole (May 29, 2006)

ddawg said:
			
		

> I don't like an insulin spike in my PWO shake because I'm kind of skinny fat and so I gain fat fairly easily.  I had been using just quick oats and whey and getting about 80g of carbs PWO which is about 120g of oatmeal.  I'd much rather eat the oatmeal but I know you really should have a shake PWO so I was wondering if grinding some brown rice  in my shake instead of using the quick oats would be just as good?  Or is there anything else or a combination of things that would get the job done but not cause the massive insulin spike like dextrose does?




The entire purpose of PWO carbs is that they enter the blood stream quickly. But if you had a good workout, then you have depleted your liver and muscle glycogen stores, so your carbs are not likely to be deposited as fat.

Instant oatmeal could be an okay PWO carb, but IMO it's not the best.

Rice cakes and milk sugars are much better.

Brown rice just defeats the purpose.

Try rice cakes and a protein shake. 1gm protein to 2 gms carbs. The "insulin spike" you are refering to isn't going to be a problem. Your liver and muscle can store massive quantities of glycogen, so provided that you deplete their stores properly, those calories will never make it into fat storage (obviously assuming that you're overall caloric intake for the day is in check).

VanessaNicole


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## juggernaut (May 29, 2006)

fuck everything and listen to emma.


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## NJ-Surfer (May 29, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> Unless your blood glucose is as steady as a rock, think twice about using the instant oats - it defeats the purpose of their use, which is to provide slow release carbs via soluble fiber slowing of whey protein digestion. That fiber release is compromised by oat processing for the quick oats variety
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## sonofman (May 30, 2006)

> Rice cakes and milk sugars are much better.



Your the 2nd person on this forum that I know do this(P-Funk was the other).  I'm thinking about trying rice cakes PW or what GoPro suggested with Waxy Maize Starch.


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## msunid83 (May 30, 2006)

huh, I always thought that quick and instant where the same thing.  Also, I would think eating the oatmeal instead of mixing with a shake would be fine as well.


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## Jodi (May 30, 2006)

Jesus.............ok, let's break this down by type of person.

Ecto - Bulking = PWO of Simple Sugars/Whey/Fruit
Meso - Bulking = PWO of Fruit, Rice Cakes/Yogurt/Whey
Endo - Bulking = PWO Fruit, Oats, Whey

Ecto - Cutting = PWO Simple Sugars/Whey/Fruit
Meso - Cutting = PWO Fruit/Instant orr Reg. Oats/Yogurt and Whey
Endo - Cutting = Whey & Oats (or oat bran, barley etc.)

Insulin Resistance = Whey/Oats (or bran)

Anymore we should add?


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## P-funk (May 30, 2006)

break it down more.....

workout....eat.....repeat.


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## Emma-Leigh (May 30, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> break it down more.....
> 
> workout....eat.....repeat.


 Ahhh... Got to love the K.I.S.S. approach. Simple and effective in 95% of the cases... (and the other 5% - well... ermmm.... 

Workout... eat less than the other 95%.... repeat...


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## ddawg (May 30, 2006)

So which of these two would be better for me.....I'm kind of skinny fat and trying to gain muscle.

1)  40g Whey
     80g Quick Oats
     4oz Banana

     568 Calories, 7g fat, 83g carbs, 43g protein

2)  40g Whey
     55g Quick Oats
     4 Quaker Rice Cakes (200 Cals, 44g carbs)

     570 Calories, 6g fat, 85g carbs, 44g protein

3)  40g Whey
     A Shitload of Quick Oats

4)  Something else?


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## Emma-Leigh (May 30, 2006)

ddawg said:
			
		

> So which of these two would be better for me.....I'm kind of skinny fat and trying to gain muscle.
> 
> 1)  40g Whey
> 80g Quick Oats
> ...


What is your weight?


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## ddawg (May 30, 2006)

Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> What is your weight?




170 and I try to put my carbs mainly Pre/Post/PPWO


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## Emma-Leigh (May 30, 2006)

ddawg said:
			
		

> 170 and I try to put my carbs mainly Pre/Post/PPWO


Ok - total amount you should aim for is going to be dependant on your weight, BF%, training (how long and the type) and how many carbs you are getting over a day... But for most people with average BF% who are working out HARD for 60-90 minutes, then something in the realms of 0.33-0.5g carbs per weight (or, if you want to get a little more restrictive, 0.33-0.5g per DESIRED lean mass) should be fine... 

If you are REALLY having insulin resistance issues then I suggest you look into sticking to ~100g carbs/day and bracket this around your workouts (Lyle McD's 100g carb bulk?)... (It is a good principle...)

Anyway - Personally - I don't like pure starches after a workout (unless you are having huge glucose disposal issues) and so I will usually suggest you go for something with either dairy or fruit in it.... So out of the options you gave number 1 would be my choice (with or without a slightl alteration to total carb intake based on the above factors)...


ps: pre-workout meal is actually more important for overall gains.... so make sure you have this correct too...


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## juggernaut (May 31, 2006)

I'm allowing myself 1/2 cup old fashioned oats with 1/2 banana and 40g of whey. Is this too little or fine? I'm cutting and meso/endo. Bodyweight at this point is 225 with about 15% BF.


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## juggernaut (May 31, 2006)

i'm talking post workout by the way.


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## Emma-Leigh (May 31, 2006)

Depends on your overall intake over the day (and your macronutrient goals), the length of your workouts, when you train, what you had pre-workout, and lots of other things... 

But personally - just based on the info you have given, if you are doing a long and intense workout (>60-90 minutes of heavy lifting) then I would increase the quantity of this meal. When cutting the last place you want to skimp on calories is pre/post workout.

So with ~38g of carbs + ~45g protein = not really enough for someone with 191 pounds of lean mass.  Even if you are doing low carbs I would at least consider increasing it to ~50g (~45g protein is not too bad... may want a slight increase in this too).

But, unless you have insulin resistance issues, I would also consider altering the foods in it.... eg: decreasing the fibre, increasing the insulin index. Just being an endo/meso does not instantly mean you are less capable of disposing of glucose... 

You have 191 pounds of lean mass... 

You may be endo/meso,


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## juggernaut (May 31, 2006)

actually, my workouts are usually 60-76 minutes long; my macros are 60g of carbs daily, with about 300g of protein a day, and 30-40 g of efas a day. On the weekends, I do a refeed of complex and refined carbs. Protein stays high and fats shrink to what is only found in the actual foods I'm ingesting on that day of refeed.


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## juggernaut (May 31, 2006)

my pwo is always the oats and whey with the banana, bringing up the protein is something easy. But what about the carbs? should they stay the same or should I bring those up too, and to what amount?


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## Emma-Leigh (May 31, 2006)

1/ 1750 cals, under most circumstances, would not be considered enough for someone your size (just stupid going that low). But this would depend on the type of diet you are following. If you are doing something similar to a UD2 or PSMF type thing... then fine... But otherwise - rethink it (oh - and are you including vegetables with that carb intake)? 

3/ You don't need 30-40g of EFAs (which are specific fats - LA and ALA). Get most of your fats from monounsaturated sources (olive oil, avocado, canola oils etc). Then have a few nuts/seeds each day (omega-6s) and supplement with 6-8g of fish oils (omega-3 sources). That is probably all you need. 

4/ If you are doing weekend re-feeds then staying low carb after your workouts is probably going to be necessary... Reason being that if you are trying to 'deplete glycogen' during the week, the last thing you want to do is go and 'restore glycogen' PWO.... Si whether or not you should increase will therefore depend on  what you are actually trying to achieve with your diet being so low during the week and if you are not aiming for glycogen depletion then I would increase PWO carbs.

5/ If you do remain so low cal/low carb during the week then you will have to make sure that you are getting enough during the weekends. And for these days you can drop your protein - I would take it down to about 200g complete (+ the extra stuff from carb sources). Reason being is that the most important thing is getting enough carbs (which are protein sparing - so taking in more than about 1g per pound protein is going to be useless). You do not want to waste calories on excess protein.


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## juggernaut (May 31, 2006)

1) whats a ud2 or psmf thing anyway? 
Greens are included in ALL of my meals except breakfast, postworkout and my shake of casein at night before bed; I do use a host of other fats such as olive oil and canola. I also eat a handful of almonds everyday, or peanuts to break up the boredom.
2) I am trying to deplete, but I like my carbs being low during the week. Its just more convenient. I only allow the two bowls of oats (1/2 cup servings) one at breakfast and the other at PWO. On the days that I dont workout, no second bowl of carbs is allowed. Just the one and the greens.
3) If I scale back on the protein on my refeed, should I install a second day of high carb/lowered protein refeed?
Finally, my goal is just some basic fat loss. I am not competing this year, but trying to lean out. September comes, I will be going into another mass cycle. I have competed before and this type of diet has worked well.


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## fUnc17 (May 31, 2006)

Jugg, i am pretty close to your stats... I hover between 218-222 @ 10-11%. I'm thinking your leaving yourself no where to go... you should probably up the cals a bit, as well as the carbs. This will slow your weight loss. Once you stop losing weight decrease by 200cals to jump start things again.

Just for comparison I eat around 2600 calories and I am cutting.


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## juggernaut (Jun 1, 2006)

I think youre right. Next workout, I'll up the carbs/protein ratio and keep it near the same on days off. Sound right?


			
				fUnc17 said:
			
		

> Jugg, i am pretty close to your stats... I hover between 218-222 @ 10-11%. I'm thinking your leaving yourself no where to go... you should probably up the cals a bit, as well as the carbs. This will slow your weight loss. Once you stop losing weight decrease by 200cals to jump start things again.
> 
> Just for comparison I eat around 2600 calories and I am cutting.


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## juggernaut (Jun 1, 2006)

btw-what does your pwo look like?





			
				fUnc17 said:
			
		

> Jugg, i am pretty close to your stats... I hover between 218-222 @ 10-11%. I'm thinking your leaving yourself no where to go... you should probably up the cals a bit, as well as the carbs. This will slow your weight loss. Once you stop losing weight decrease by 200cals to jump start things again.
> 
> Just for comparison I eat around 2600 calories and I am cutting.


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## fUnc17 (Jun 1, 2006)

My Cutting PWO:

1 half banana
2 scoops whey
2 cups water
1/2 cup oats

Bulking PWO:

1 half banana
2 scoops whey
1 cup skim milk
1 cup water
1 large plain bagel

I just finished a recomp so I am in the beginning of my cut.. keeping 3-4 carb meals on w/o days with larger carb servings. On Off days, 1-2 carb meals with half the serving size, this is not including veggies. I have 3 meals every day with veggies. In 2 weeks I will re-evaluate and either continue what I've been doing or decrease carb intake by 10% and continue until weight loss stops again.

Its a slow process but you'll have a much better foundation once it's done. When you want to bulk you'll start out much leaner.


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## juggernaut (Jun 1, 2006)

so your saying that I should institute more carb meals, scale back on the refeeds and take my time losing the BF? Not a bad idea, but I need to cheat. Does your diet allow for a cheat while cutting? And should I continue the refeed if I put in more carb meals?


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## sonofman (Jun 1, 2006)

fUnc17, how did you set up your recomp diet.  You, jugg and I are around the same weight, but my bodyfat is higher.   I trying to get some ideas


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## fUnc17 (Jun 1, 2006)

juggernaut said:
			
		

> so your saying that I should institute more carb meals, scale back on the refeeds and take my time losing the BF? Not a bad idea, but I need to cheat. Does your diet allow for a cheat while cutting? And should I continue the refeed if I put in more carb meals?



Yea exactly. I'd say get rid of the refeeds until you really need them. For instance... when you get down to sub 10% refeeds will become more important. Take your time, you'll pretty much maintain all of your LBM for the most part (minimizing the loss of any because of the slow pace of the diet).

You need more calories and carbs. Stay in a deficit. When you stop losing weight reduce calories (from carbs). This will cause you to lose weight again (about 1lb/wk), it will then stop again. Drop calories again (always from carbs). And so on

I've found you don't need to create an enormous deficit to lose fat. Your only at 15% bf, not fat at all. When I diet I want to lose FAT, not LBM.. you have to do everything possible to preserve the LBM you have, it is hypocritical not to.

I cheat one meal per week.. usually a saturday/sunday thing. But sometimes I am so into my progress that I go 2 weeks without a cheat meal. You have to indulge every so often, can't cut yourself off from the rest of the world, ya know?

*sonofman: *Ok. I recommend reading the sticky Jodi has up to get an idea what clean foods are. Then take those clean foods and figure out what your maintenance caloric intake is. 

For example: If you weigh 225 (regardless of BF) you would do 14cals/lb*225 = 3150 calories required for you to maintain that weight. So you will need a 3150 calorie diet consisting of all clean foods (complex carbs, veggies, lean meats... the whole shibang). My recomp lasted about 6 weeks.


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## juggernaut (Jun 1, 2006)

you're making good sense func. Lets see a daily diet of of what you eat both on and off when cutting.


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## fUnc17 (Jun 1, 2006)

*Training days*

2 scoops whey
1 cup oats
multi 
vit C

train

2 scoops whey
1/2 banana
1/2 cup oats

Chicken/Salmon/Tuna/Flank steak
Medium sweet potato
1 serving of either broccoli or spinach
orange or apple
2 fish oil caps

Chicken/Salmon/Tuna/Flank steak
Medium sweet potato
1 serving of either broccoli or spinach
orange or apple
2 fish oil caps

Chicken/Salmon/Tuna/Flank steak
1 serving of either broccoli or spinach

7 whites, 1 whole
1 Tbsp olive oil
1 Tbsp natty pb

2 scoops whey
2 fish oil

*Off days

*2 scoops whey
1/2 cup oats
multi 
vit C

Chicken/Salmon/Tuna/Flank steak
Medium sweet potato
1 serving of either broccoli or spinach
orange or apple
2 fish oil caps

Chicken/Salmon/Tuna/Flank steak
 1 serving of either broccoli or spinach
 2 fish oil caps

Chicken/Salmon/Tuna/Flank steak
 1 serving of either broccoli or spinach

7 whites, 1 whole
1 Tbsp olive oil
1 Tbsp natty pb

2 scoops whey
2 fish oil

Try to drink 2 gallons of water per day as well. I shoot for 2, end up getting about 1.5. Pretty easy when you carry a jug around with you.


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## VanessaNicole (Jun 1, 2006)

(Wow, Jugg, I eat 1750 too and I'm cutting and I'm female, 5'9" 144. Yeah, you need to up that.)


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## sonofman (Jun 1, 2006)

fUnc17 said:
			
		

> sonofman: Ok. I recommend reading the sticky Jodi has up to get an idea what clean foods are. Then take those clean foods and figure out what your maintenance caloric intake is.
> 
> For example: If you weigh 225 (regardless of BF) you would do 14cals/lb*225 = 3150 calories required for you to maintain that weight. So you will need a 3150 calorie diet consisting of all clean foods (complex carbs, veggies, lean meats... the whole shibang). My recomp lasted about 6 weeks.



Thanks, just checking!  Our diets are very similar.  I appreciate you posting it


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## juggernaut (Jun 1, 2006)

VanessaNicole said:
			
		

> (Wow, Jugg, I eat 1750 too and I'm cutting and I'm female, 5'9" 144. Yeah, you need to up that.)


Vanessa, i'm guesstimating here, but I have a strong feeling counts are probably off. I eat about 300 to MAYBE 325g in protein; currently but making changes very soon in carbs-i eat about 50g of carbs a day and about 30-40g of fats a day. This is an on day for training, off i have abiout 25-30g of carbs. So, 

50g carbs x 4=200cals
325g protein x 4 = 1300cals
40g fats x 9 = 360cals
________________________
total caloric intake is: 1860

Where the hell can i add to this? Unless I add in 2 more healthy carb (oats, yams) meals...


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## juggernaut (Jun 1, 2006)

func what are your total cals? on and off?


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## ddawg (Jun 1, 2006)

I decided to throw some milk in my PWO shake after reading some good things about it so my final shake is:

30g Whey
4oz Banana
1 Cup Skim Milk
60g Quick Oats

538 Calories, 6g fat, 81g carbs, 43g protein


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## sonofman (Jun 2, 2006)

juggernaut said:
			
		

> func what are your total cals? on and off?



I'm curious also...


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## Gordo (Jun 2, 2006)

juggernaut said:
			
		

> Vanessa, i'm guesstimating here, but I have a strong feeling counts are probably off. I eat about 300 to MAYBE 325g in protein; currently but making changes very soon in carbs-i eat about 50g of carbs a day and about 30-40g of fats a day. This is an on day for training, off i have abiout 25-30g of carbs. So,
> 
> 50g carbs x 4=200cals
> 325g protein x 4 = 1300cals
> ...



At your BW fats seem REALLY low. Especially if you're gonna low carb it. You're at ~70% protein


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## VanessaNicole (Jun 2, 2006)

That's still really low...

Good idea adding milk in your PWO shake.

You could add more fats to up your calories. An extra serving of nuts would be good.

You don't have to add more carbs, but you should add more calories, IMHO.

Don't flame me, guys, but I'm afraid I have to disagree that PWO nutrition should depend on body type.

And I think the only difference between a cutting PWO and a bulking PWO should be in caloric content. I think everyone would benefit from 2gms of carbs per gram of protein PWO, with some fast acting carbs. 

Oatmeal is fine, brown rice is fine, fruit is fine, but get some starch in there too.

Just my opinion.

VanessaNicole


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