# why lift when cutting?



## drbenroth (Jul 4, 2006)

if you are eating less calories, seems to me that working out (breaking down muscles) can do more harm than good, as the damage cant be repaired without enough calories.
it also seems like a waste of the little energy that you are consuming.


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## tucker01 (Jul 4, 2006)

is this a serious question?


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## tucker01 (Jul 4, 2006)

yes


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## tucker01 (Jul 4, 2006)

Why would they maintain more muscle.  The body is going to use up energy from the highest energy output source (ie. muscles) Because you are in a caloric deficit, to the body starvation.  

If they are not being used, then the body will break them down first to to create energy to survive.


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## tucker01 (Jul 4, 2006)

Gaining muscle and preserving muscle are both factors as to why to weight train.  It depends on how severe of  caloric deficit you are in.  Obviously preserving muscle is the key.

The big issue is finding the correct deficit, so the minimal muscle loss and maximum fat loss occur


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## tucker01 (Jul 4, 2006)

drbenroth said:
			
		

> exactly, it is the "caloric deficit" that causes the body to "use up energy from the highest energy output source (ie. muscles)"
> whether you workout or not, when cutting, you have a calorie deficit, so muscle loss will happen. i suggest that the guy who does not workout will maintain more muscle because he has a SMALLER calorie deficit. He has not wasted a load of calories lifting weights for not good reason.



Muslce requires more calories daily then fat.  The body wants to hold on to fat as a saftey net for times of famine.


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## tucker01 (Jul 4, 2006)

Yes and lift heavy


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## AKIRA (Jul 4, 2006)

IainDaniel said:
			
		

> Muslce requires more calories daily then fat.  The body wants to hold on to fat as a saftey net for times of famine.



You just basically agreed with his questioning points.

I understand what hes asking.  If a person wanted to cut, theyd have to consume less calories than burned.  If this person lifts weights, he/she would burn more calories than say, a different person who didnt lift.

Is Iain saying that if you dont workout your muscles to lift heavy weight, the body will break down what it doesnt 'need?' (non-working muscles)

I think understand the answer, however.  Once a muscle is worked/torn as it recovers, the body doesnt have as much calories as it did before, but I believe a diet will give the body what it needs during this catabolic state..


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## mike456 (Jul 4, 2006)

try not lifting while cutting and see how much muscle you lose.


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## GFR (Jul 4, 2006)

drbenroth said:
			
		

> as far as i can tell, there are two reasons why people do it
> 
> 1.to gain muscle.
> 2.or to maintain muscle.
> ...


This is one of the most ridiculous posts I have read here in a month...

Why even move then, just sit or sleep all day and you will maintain even more muscle


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## nsimmons (Jul 5, 2006)

*muscle repair, whilst cutting, is a low priority need.*

Not if the body is expecting to be hammered with a daily workout. It knows to hold on to the muscle required for the task. The body doesnt know that the task is a voluntary action, as far as its concerned the muscle is required for existance. It will make retention a priority.

Have you considered why cardiac muscle is one of the last to be broken down. Hint because the muscle is being used constantly.

Comparing malnurished children to a body builder really takes the cake.

This really is a stupid question.

Arguing theory is even pointless, the empirical evidence to the contrary is overwhelming. Anyone who stops working out becomes weaker and smaller, regarless of the calories consumed.

Everysingle person here has most likely taken time of lifting and became smaller and weaker. You tell me someone who takes a year off lifting to pig out on mc pukes and pizza doesnt get weaker.


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## nsimmons (Jul 5, 2006)

You keep saying "I believe" 

Good for you, People also believe in god that doesnt mean he exists, back it up with some studys to show you're corrent. 

What the fuck is wrong with you? Have you never seen a huge fat strong kid follow a jenny craig diet and become a skinny fat kid? How many people come here alone saying they dieted without training and are small and weak now.

You just agreeded with half my points which invalidate your reasoning. 

You propose that not lifting will in a deficit while retain more muscle mass as lifting in a deficit. That is complete and utter bullshit, you have zero evidence to support that claim.

Youre changing your story half way through, first you were talking about maintaining as much muscle as possible (having some loss) now your talking about creating new muscle(building a house with no bricks) 2 different arguments.

Dont you think the body will partition chemicals differently if there is a different need. You think the body is so stupid as to repair muscle first, power sub systems, then store fat. You do realise these things happen at the same time, and the percentage towards fat storage can be shifted to fiber repair, if the body senses the need to ie training heavy?

Once again there is no point in arguing theory when the experimental evidence (training for the last 100 years) disagrees with your theory.

Have you ever even studied science? You know what the scientific method is? Your theory and the evidence dont jive. Your theory is wrong.


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## GFR (Jul 5, 2006)

drbenroth said:
			
		

> it is very easy to say somebody is wrong, and i am willing to admit that i might be, but certainly you have given me no reason to suggest that i am.
> if this is a ridiculous post, i would like to suggest an equally ridiculous explanation as to why i am wrong.
> 
> undernourished children that are described as suffering from protein deficiency, can put on muscle, when lying in bed, if they are simply given a glass of coke every day. i.e activity, and even protein intake are secondary to the basic number of calories.
> ...


You have no data to back up your silly opinion. Read up on hypertrophy, starvation  and diet and then get back to us son.


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## Jodi (Jul 5, 2006)

OMG what a thread!


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## assassin (Jul 5, 2006)

ok when u lift weight  why does your body increase  your muscles mass?????? to survive ?? to over come the load ?? to be able to lift the weight on the next time ????... the same when you are cutting ,,, your body will try to keep your muscles because it feels that you still need them ..... so it i'll fight to keep your muscles ........if you don't lift while cutting your body will find it easier to break muscles tissues for energy as there is no need for them .. they just cost your body to burn more calories .... so the first thing is that your body will drop the pounds of muscles u've got before  going to your fat stores ..... cause your body thinks that the fat storage is for survival and to ensure you have enough energy to live when there is no food....

noob thread


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## min0 lee (Jul 5, 2006)

How many of his own threads did he just delete?
I'm lost here, I thought Iain lost his marbles and went crazy talking to himself.


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## GFR (Jul 5, 2006)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> How many of his own threads did he just delete?
> I'm lost here, I thought Iain lost his marbles and went crazy talking to himself.


Enough to admit he is wrong and that he has shamed his family


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## sonofman (Jul 5, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Enough to admit he is wrong and that he has shamed his family


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## ge3k0 (Jul 6, 2006)

dude great post. I was basically wondering the same thing, can I : should I take protein shakes while trying to cut? I lift weights, but want to focus more on cardio, and think that the reason why I haven't lost as much weight is because I lift, and take in alot of protein and try to eat the "right" amount of times + that other junk...but keep it to a mim. like eating oranges and fruites only, and having those shake things.


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## nsimmons (Jul 6, 2006)

I won!

If you were correct you would be able to back it up with substance rather than conjecture.

I spent 8 hours at work wondering what stupid thing was going to be posted next.


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## nsimmons (Jul 6, 2006)

You lost, quit pouting, if you had anything of substance you'd post it instead of telling people we dont understand.

Not a single person had the slightest agreement with you.


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## nsimmons (Jul 6, 2006)

% of LBM retained will be greater in a caloric deficit without the expenditure of lifting weights, than if weights were lifted.



			
				drbenroth said:
			
		

> as the damage cant be repaired without enough calories.



You fail to realize that the body will make the extra effort to repair the muscle if it has a reason too. It will not be able to repair everything, there will be some loss.

If you consume more food in one meal than needed to fill muscle glycogen stores then the body will store the excess in fat cells. It will make little effort to promote hyperthrophy if it deems the excessive muscles as useless.

If you continue to train hard the body will assue the muscles are vital and after glycogen is restored it will divote a higher partition of excess to muscle repair then sending it completley to adipose tissue for storage.

You dont seem to have even a basic understanding of the metabolic process.

Its not so simple as calories in calories out, there are dynamic processes being played out simultaneously.



Now I ask a question of you, give one single piece of evidence(not your beliefs) to support your theory and how it relates to *body building*. Feeding sugar water to emaciated children is not relevent.


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## assassin (Jul 6, 2006)

lol cutting doesn't mean u'll starve your self 24/7 ........ it's a deficit in your tootal daily intake , not in ever meal.....


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## nsimmons (Jul 6, 2006)

In one meal stupid, fuck youre dense...

Eat a big mac and you'll fill the stores, but can still be under your bmr for the day.

Go educate yourself then come back.

You didnt respond to any of the post except for the part that went over your head? Obviously i understand your point. Obviously you dont understand anything.

Assasin, this guy doesnt even understand basic terms. Theres no point in arguing with him. Its like trying to prove a math theorem to someone who cant add. Im done.

You loose


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## tucker01 (Jul 6, 2006)

Like was stated previously.  If you think you know so much.... educate us and prove your theory.  Don't just spout off your opinion as fact.

I never once stated I knew it all.  Although I didn't clearly convey my message, you have done nothing to disprove it.


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## tucker01 (Jul 6, 2006)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> How many of his own threads did he just delete?
> I'm lost here, I thought Iain lost his marbles and went crazy talking to himself.


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## MCx2 (Jul 6, 2006)

drbenroth said:
			
		

> "lol cutting doesn't mean u'll starve your self 24/7"
> neither does having partially replenished glycogen stores.
> 
> clearly we have different ideas of cutting. mine does not involve lifting weights and eating big macs.



Dude, you're missing the whole point of cutting. Cutting pertains to retaining LBM while reducing body fat. I really don't see how that's possible if you AREN'T LIFTING. What you are refering to as "cutting" most refer to it as "dieting". So do us all a favor, give Jenny Craig a call, and start counting those points.


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## Pepper (Jul 6, 2006)

They understood the question just fine.

You are just wrong.

I don't think they have been rude, stupid, impatient or anything.


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## tucker01 (Jul 6, 2006)

back these numbers up with substatial proof.  Or you are just spouting shit off


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## Pepper (Jul 6, 2006)

I am starting to think this guy is a troll. This can't be real.


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## assassin (Jul 6, 2006)

repleneshing glycogen stores would take less than one day sometimes.........read the refeed & leptin sticky..


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## assassin (Jul 6, 2006)

by the way i wanted to say one last thing ..... sometimes ppl maybe able to increase their muscles mass while eating under maintanance & losing body fat (beginners and ppl on roids) .............


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## nsimmons (Jul 6, 2006)

Looks like i missed some fun, to busy doing legs. I guess i should have taken a nap instead and gotten stronger.


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## nsimmons (Jul 6, 2006)

assassin said:
			
		

> maintanance & losing body fat (beginners and ppl on roids) .............



Funny, this guy started another thread where im fighting over this issue.


I like how presents a premise then places the responsibility to disprove it on us.

Guess what numb nuts. I am Jesus Christ. Prove me wrong.

You cant prove a negative.


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## nsimmons (Jul 6, 2006)

Maybe if you presented any points to back up your beliefs? 

Are you really that stupid you expect someone to disprove a belief? 

This is really the most illogical rediculous conversation Ive ever had on here. 

Do you know the difference between knowing something and believing something? Knowledge can be independantly verified. By definition a belief cannot. It is logically impossible. 

By asking me to do so proves your ignorance of not only english, but in deductive reasoning.



Once again I ask you to provide even one shread of evidence to support your claim. If you cant this thread is done. Making things up and asking others to do the leg work invalidates anything you could possibly have to say.


[edit]
I just noticed something, your use of the words premise and conclusion. Sounds like a freshman philosophy class.

Your argument is only a logically sound argument if your premises are accepted as true. Your premises cannot be defined as true or false as in a deductive statement, so they must be defined inductively and given a probability rating as to how true they are.

As they are your premises the *onus* is on you to define the probability of being true or false, before your argument can even be considered sound. 

Please provide the necessary statistics to back up the probability calculations of your argument. I can provide you with the formulas if you like.

Dont fuck with the Jedi Master son, Ive read a book or two about logic.


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## nsimmons (Jul 6, 2006)

*PWN3D!*


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## assassin (Jul 6, 2006)




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## nsimmons (Jul 6, 2006)

haha he keeps deleting his posts...

what a tool


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## GFR (Jul 6, 2006)

drbenroth said:
			
		

> you have proven nothing except that you enjoy tangents.
> my question remains inadequately answered



http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showpost.php?p=1387416&postcount=13


Done a day ago......time for you to study up son.


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## Pedigree (Jul 6, 2006)

Pepper said:
			
		

> I am starting to think this guy is a troll. This can't be real.



Agreed.


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## fUnc17 (Jul 6, 2006)

why lift while bulking? fuck it, why lift at all?


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## musclepump (Jul 6, 2006)

This is hilarious.


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## min0 lee (Jul 6, 2006)

nsimmons said:
			
		

> haha he keeps deleting his posts...
> 
> what a tool


 
And everytime I try to read his stuff it's gone......I wanted to see this wreck.


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## GFR (Jul 6, 2006)

nsimmons said:
			
		

> haha he keeps deleting his posts...
> 
> what a tool


That's why it's good to quote people....Like I just did here


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## JonnyStead (Jul 7, 2006)

Hey guys

This post is pretty difficult to follow with all the deleted entries etc so can I ask a quick question? I think I have grasped that I still need to lift weights whilst finding the balance of calorie intake to cut? (hope I got that right) but can you recommend whether I should be:

A)  Lifting the same weights / reps as before but with more cardio
B)  Lifting lighter weights but higher reps
C)  Exactly the same routine/weights/reps as before

Sorry for the noob question but I have been training for 18 months and want to cut properly for the first time - so advice would be great - thanks all!


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## BulkMeUp (Jul 8, 2006)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> I'm lost here, I thought Iain lost his marbles and went crazy talking to himself.


 me too! I thought Iain got mad at the question and was just spamming this thread with multiple posts when i realised the poster had deleted his posts.


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