# How to Bench Big



## Mudge (Sep 14, 2002)

Yes I know this is not a powerlifters forum, but this article goes into detail on the proper form (etc) which I only learned months ago.

FORM PICTURE (SORTA)
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?p=692254#post692254

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Bench Press 600 Pounds
A 12 Step Program
by Dave Tate



Obviously, not everyone has the genetic raw material to bench press 600 pounds. However, if anyone can teach you to increase your bench, it's Dave Tate. Dave's been assisting and training under Louie Simmons of Westside Barbell fame for over 10 years. He's also the co-owner of Elite Fitness Systems and has consulted thousands of athletes throughout the world. When an athlete wants to get stronger and gain an edge in the world of elite, world class competition, the name Dave Tate is often on the short list of strength coaches who can get the job done. As you'll see, Dave "walks the walk" as well as "talks the talk" when it comes to getting bigger and stronger. We're proud to welcome him as a Testosterone contributor.


I spend most of my weekends in transit these days. In fact, I'm writing this article on a plane headed to yet another seminar I'm conducting. This travel time gives me the chance to think, relax, and reflect on many issues dealing with training and life. I also use the time to prepare for my upcoming seminar or consulting session. I normally sit here going over what topics I'll be presenting and how I can better relate them to my audience. But today there's a problem. No there's not a creature on the wing throwing monkey wrenches into the plane's engines, but it's almost that bad. The problem is all I can think about is my bench press!

You see, I train at Westside Barbell, which is renowned for producing world-caliber strength athletes. I've been a part of this group since 1990. Before that, I had spent five years stuck at a 1955 pound total in powerlifting. Then I tore my right pectoralis major tendon while trying to bench 500 at a bench press competition. I figured that was the end of competition days and thought about retiring from the sport. Then I thought to myself, retire from what? I haven't done anything yet! 

I knew I had two options: I could keep training the way I always had and totally fall apart, or I could move to Columbus to train under the watchful eye of Louie Simmons. It wasn't that difficult of a decision. After the surgery I packed the car and moved to Columbus. That was over 10 years ago. Since then, my lifts have increased to a 935-pound squat, 585-pound bench and a 740-pound deadlift. This was after my surgeon told me I'd never bench over 400 again!

Although my bench press has increased 85 pounds, it's still a far cry from where it should be. At Westside we have 34 guys benching over 500 pounds and eight benching over 600. (In fact, six of those eight guys press over 650!) My bench pretty much sucks when compared to the others in the gym. When people ask me for bench advice, I cringe because I'm still chasing 600. I've missed that mark five times in competition at the time of this writing. 

I kept telling myself that once I push up 600 pounds I'd write a definitive article on benching. Well, I haven't hit that mark yet, but I do have the biggest bench out of everyone on my flight, so I'm feeling like an authority on benching at the moment. Who knows, maybe writing this article I'll teach myself something, or remember something I've forgotten? I also feel the need to write this because of the vast amount of misinformation out there on this subject. I feel there're 12 components to a great bench press. If we apply these 12 steps, then perhaps you and I both will reach our bench press goals.


12 Steps to a Bigger Bench

1 ??? Train the Triceps

Years ago, if you had asked Larry Pacifico how to get a big bench, he'd have told you to train the triceps. This same advice applies today. This doesn't mean doing set after set of pushdowns, kickbacks, and other so-called "shaping" exercises. Training your triceps for a big bench has to involve heavy extensions and close-grip pressing movements such as close-grip flat and incline bench presses, close-grip board presses, and JM presses. 

Various barbell and dumbbell extensions should also be staples of your training program. Don't let anyone try to tell you the bench press is about pec strength. These people don't know the correct way to bench and are setting you up for a short pressing career with sub-par weights. I just read an article in one of the major muscle magazines by one of these authors on how to increase your bench press. The advice given was to train your pecs with crossovers and flies and your bench will go up! This, along with many other points, made me wonder how this article ever got published or better yet, how much the author himself could bench. 

I believe articles should go under a peer review board before they get printed. I'd like many of my peers to review these authors in the gym or better yet on the bench to see how much they really know. Bottom line: Train the triceps! 

2 ??? Keep your shoulder blades pulled together and tight.

This is a very important and often overlooked aspect of great bench pressing. While pressing you have to create the most stable environment possible. This can't be done if most of your shoulder blades are off the bench. The bench is only so wide and we can't change this, but we can change how we position ourselves on the bench. 

When you pull your shoulder blades together you're creating a tighter, more stable surface from which to press. This is because more of your body is in contact with the bench. The tightness of your upper back also contributes. These techniques also change the distance the bar will have to travel. The key to pressing big weight is to press the shortest distance possible.

3 ??? Keep the pressure on your upper back and traps. 

This is another misunderstood aspect of pressing. You want the pressure around the supporting muscles. This is accomplished by driving your feet into the floor, thereby driving your body into the bench. Try this: Lie on the bench and line up so your eyes are four inches in front of the bar (toward your feet). Now using your legs, drive yourself into the bench to put pressure on the upper back and traps. Your eyes should now be even with the bar. This is the same pressure that needs to be applied while pushing the barbell.

4 ??? Push the bar in a straight line. 

Try to push the bar toward your feet. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, right? Then why in the world would some coaches advocate pressing in a "J" line toward the rack? If I were to bench the way most trainers are advocating (with my elbows out, bringing the bar down to the chest and pressing toward the rack) my barbell travel distance would be 16 inches. Now, if I pull my shoulder blades together, tuck my chin and elbows, and bring the bar to my upper abdominals or lower chest, then my pressing distance is only 6.5 inches. Now which would you prefer? If you want to push up a bar-bending load of plates, you'd choose the shorter distance. 

Here's another important aspect of pressing in this style. By keeping your shoulder blades together and your chin and elbows tucked, you'll have less shoulder rotation when compared to the J-line method of pressing. This is easy to see by watching how low the elbows drop in the bottom part of the press when the barbell is on the chest. With the elbows out, most everyone's elbows are far lower than the bench. This creates a tremendous amount of shoulder rotation and strain. 

Now try the same thing with the elbows tucked and shoulder blades together while bringing the barbell to your upper abdominals. For most people, the elbows are usually no lower than the bench. Less shoulder rotation equals less strain on the shoulder joint. This means pressing bigger weights for many more years. I've always been amazed at trainers that suggest only doing the top half of the bench press, i.e. stopping when the upper arms are parallel to the floor. This is done to avoid the excess shoulder rotation. All they have to do is teach their clients the proper way to bench in the first place!

5 ??? Keep the elbows tucked and the bar directly over the wrists and elbows. 

This is probably the most important aspect of great pressing technique. The elbows must remain tucked to keep the bar in a straight line as explained above. Keeping the elbows tucked will also allow lifters to use their lats to drive the bar off the chest. Football players are taught to drive their opponents with their elbows tucked, then explode through. This is the same for bench pressing. Bench pressing is all about generating force. You can generate far more force with your elbows in a tucked position compared to an "elbows out" position.

The most important aspect of this is to keep the barbell in a direct line with the elbow. If the barbell is behind the elbow toward the head, then the arm position becomes similar to an extension, not a press.

6 ??? Bring the bar low on your chest or upper abdominals.

This is the only way you can maintain the "barbell to elbow" position as described above. You may have heard the advice, "Bring it low" at almost every powerlifting competition. This is the reason why. Once again, the barbell must travel in a straight line.

7 ??? Fill your belly with air and hold it. 

For maximum attempts and sets under three reps, you must try to hold your air. Everyone must learn to breathe from their bellies and not their chests. If you stand in front of the mirror and take a deep breath, your shoulders shouldn't rise. If they do you're breathing the air into your chest, not your belly. Greater stability can be achieved in all the lifts when you learn how to pull air into the belly. Try to expand and fill the belly with as much air as possible and hold it. If you breathe out during a maximum attempt, the body structure will change slightly, thus changing the groove in which the barbell is traveling. 

8 ??? Train with compensatory acceleration. 

Push the bar with maximal force. Whatever weight you're trying to push, be it 40% or 100% of your max, you must learn to apply 100% of the force to the barbell. If you can bench 500 pounds and are training with 300 pounds, you must then apply 500 pounds of force to the 300-pound barbell. This is known as compensatory acceleration and it can help you break through sticking points.

These sticking points are known as your "mini maxes," or the points at which you miss the lift or the barbell begins to slip out of the groove. Many times I'm asked what to do if the barbell gets stuck four to five inches off the chest. Everybody wants to know what exercise will help them strengthen this area or what body part is holding them back. Many times it isn't what you do to strengthen the area where it sticks, but what you can do to build more acceleration in the area before the mini max. If you can get the bar moving with more force then there won't be a sticking point. Instead, you'll blast right through it. Compensatory acceleration will help you do this.

9 ??? Squeeze the barbell and try to pull the bar apart! 

Regardless of the lift, you have to keep your body as tight as Monica Brant's behind. You'll never lift big weights if you're in a relaxed physical state while under the barbell. The best way to get the body tight is by squeezing the bar. We've also found that if you try to pull the bar apart or "break the bar," the triceps seem to become more activated.

10 ??? Devote one day per week to dynamic-effort training.

According to Vladimir Zatsiorsinsky in his text Science and Practice of Strength Training, there are three ways to increase muscle tension. These three methods include the dynamic-effort method, the maximal-effort method, and the repetition method. Most training programs being practiced in the US today only utilize one or two of these methods. It's important, however, to use all three.

The bench press should be trained using the dynamic-effort method. This method is best defined as training with sub-maximal weights (45 to 60%) at maximal velocities. The key to this method is bar speed. Percentage training can be very deceiving. The reason for this is because lifters at higher levels have better motor control and recruit more muscle than a less experienced lifter. 

For example, the maximal amount of muscle you could possibility recruit is 100%. Now, the advanced lifter _ after years of teaching his nervous system to be efficient _ may be able to recruit 70 to 80% of muscle fibers, while the intermediate might be able to recruit only 50%. Thus, the advanced lifter would need less percent weight than the intermediate. This is one of the reasons why an advanced lifter squatting 80% of his max for 10 reps would kill himself while a beginner could do it all day long. 

If you base the training on bar speed, then the percentages are no longer an issue, only a guideline. So how do you know where to start? If you're an intermediate lifter, I suggest you start at 50% of maximal and see how fast you can make it move for three reps. If you can move 20 more pounds with the same speed then use the heavier weight. 

Based on years of experience and Primlin's charts for optimal percent training, we've found the best range to be eight sets of three reps. Based on Primlin's research, the optimal range for 70% and less is 12 to 24 repetitions.

We've also found it very beneficial to train the bench using three different grips, all of which are performed within the rings. This may break down into two sets with the pinky fingers on the rings, three sets with three fingers from the smooth area of the bar and three sets with one finger from the smooth area. 

11 ??? Devote one day per week to maximal-effort training.

For the second bench day of the week (72 hours after the dynamic day) you should concentrate on the maximal-effort method. This is best defined as lifting maximal weights (90% to 100%) for one to three reps. This is one of the best methods to develop maximal strength. The key here is to strain. The downfall is you can't train above 90% for longer than three weeks without having adverse effects. 

Try performing a max bench press every week for four or five weeks. You'll see you may progress for the first two, maybe three weeks, then your progress will halt and begin to work its way backward. We've combated this by switching up the maximal-effort exercises. We rotate maximal-effort movements such as the close-grip incline press, board press, floor press, and close-grip flat press. These exercises are all specific to bench pressing and all have a very high carryover value.

12 ??? Train the lats on the same plane as the bench.

I'm talking about the horizontal plane here. In other words, you must perform rows, rows, and more rows. "If you want to bench big then you need to train the lats." I've heard both George Hilbert and Kenny Patterson say this for years when asked about increasing the bench press. When you bench you're on a horizontal plane. So would it make sense from a balance perspective to train the lats with pulldowns, which are on a vertical plane? Nope. Stick to the barbell row if you want a big bench.


Now that my trip is over and I'm back in Columbus, I no longer feel like an authority on bench pressing. My 585 pound bench press is considered sort of "puny" by Westside standards, after all. By writing this article, however, I've realized a few things I need to change about my bench pressing. I bet you have too. Hopefully, I've helped you correct a few problems that might've been keeping you from breaking your own personal record. Remember, the smallest things often bring the biggest results.


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## Dr. Pain (Sep 14, 2002)

*Butt I have A BIG BENCH!*







Thanks,   Gr8 post! 


DP


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## Scotty the Body (Sep 14, 2002)

Great read,  geez DP, that is a big bench!!


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## Dr. Pain (Sep 14, 2002)

Thanks, my bench is 'Well Endowed" 

DP


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## w8lifter (Sep 14, 2002)

You're nuts


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## Dr. Pain (Sep 14, 2002)

Yeah, those too! 

DP


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## Mudge (Sep 14, 2002)

Not sure if Scotty could use it, but it looks like a good 2 seater


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## Josh (Sep 15, 2002)

> 1 ??? Train the Triceps
> 
> ......
> 
> of your training program. Don't let anyone try to tell you the bench press is about pec strength. These people don't know the correct way to bench and are setting you up for a short pressing career with sub-par weights. I just read an article in one of the major muscle magazines by one of these authors on how to increase your bench press. The advice given was to train your pecs with crossovers and flies and your bench will go up! This, along with many other points, made me wonder how this article ever got published or better yet, how much the author himself could bench.



I thought bench press is for chest, and triceps are only a synergist muscle.  Though strengthening triceps certainly help to enable one to push more, but isn't the main muscle worked on (thus built in strength and size) is still chest?  If so then how come this article says that bench press has nothing to do with pec strength?

Or is it that developing strength and size must be done in different way?  So for a powerlifter to push the most weight he has to reply much on his triceps (thus concentrate to first strengthen triceps and use them much in the lifts), while for a bodybuilder to enlarge and define his chest he must concentrate on using his chest muscle to move the weight and not aiming to the max weight (thus no need to prioritize triceps for bodybuilding)?



> 5 ??? Keep the elbows tucked and the bar directly over the wrists and elbows.
> 
> This is probably the most important aspect of great pressing technique. The elbows must remain tucked to keep the bar in a straight line as explained above. Keeping the elbows tucked will also allow lifters to use their lats to drive the bar off the chest.



Keeping the elbows tucked in, does this mean the elbows are kept very close to our sides?  But if so, the grips would be close, so this bench press would become a close grip bench press, which I understand is usually to target triceps and not for chest.  Again, is this an effort to rely on triceps to push the most weight (powerlifting) instead of to develop chest (bodybuilding)?

- Josh


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## Mudge (Sep 15, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Josh *_
> 
> thought bench press is for chest, and triceps are only a synergist muscle. Though strengthening triceps certainly help to enable one to push more, but isn't the main muscle worked on (thus built in strength and size) is still chest? If so then how come this article says that bench press has nothing to do with pec strength?



It is not the same for everyone, HOWEVER if you bench using this method it will use the triceps significantly, unless your body structure is much different than mine. I use triceps ALOT in benching, especially the later portions of the rep (moving towards lockout).



> Keeping the elbows tucked in, does this mean the elbows are kept very close to our sides? But if so, the grips would be close, so this bench press would become a close grip bench press, which I understand is usually to target triceps and not for chest. Again, is this an effort to rely on triceps to push the most weight (powerlifting) instead of to develop chest (bodybuilding)?



Aha! No, this does not exactly mean close grip, I do not use an ultra wide grip - but! If you lower the weight to below the nipples as the article suggests, then you will find that it is not possible to have your elbows way out at your sides, this means that your arms are not neccessarily rubbing your sides but they are closer than most people who are benching INCORRECTLY. I spent enough time doing it the incorrect way which kept on beating my shoulders to death, always holding back any shoulder work AND holding back my bench.

Like I said in my own little summary, it took me about a week to grasp and physically perform all these concepts, to "get it" in other words. What I did, is remember the key points, and did a set of a few reps with a really light weight every day I went into the gym. I can take pictures if this remains confusing.

I might add that it hits my triceps hard enough, that this is again why I ultimately prefer dumbells. Again though everyones structure is different, some hit shoulders alot, some triceps, some see most of it in chest, its in your form and your own structure that determine these things.


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## Mudge (Sep 15, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Josh *_
> 
> Keeping the elbows tucked in, does this mean the elbows are kept very close to our sides? But if so, the grips would be close, so this bench press would become a close grip bench press, which I understand is usually to target triceps and not for chest. Again, is this an effort to rely on triceps to push the most weight (powerlifting) instead of to develop chest (bodybuilding)?



If you put your hands close together this would put the wrists in an awkward position, that is a "close grip" bench. This doesn't neccessarily even mean a closer than normal grip, remember to keep the weight centered over the wrists, this means that you are not using the wrists under any stress to maintain holding onto the weight, which many people do without noticing it.

If you did a hands together close grip press, yes it would hit the triceps very hard, but would require you to use less weight and would put stress on the wrists.


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## Craft (Sep 16, 2002)

Awesome post, thanks.... great info.


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## Josh (Sep 17, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Like I said in my own little summary, it took me about a week to grasp and physically perform all these concepts, to "get it" in other words. What I did, is remember the key points, and did a set of a few reps with a really light weight every day I went into the gym. I can take pictures if this remains confusing.



It's very thoughtful of you to offer taking pictures for clarfication, but I think it's not necessary.  After thinking some more, I think I can understand the points contained in the article.  In fact, I think I do the same thing with bb bench press, just not realizing that this position already put my elbows not way out but rather close to my sides, just as you explained.  And same thing with close grip bench press which I sometimes do for training triceps (not chess), I always keep the weights center on the wrist, so the grip is not as close as some people would consider as close grip.

Anyway, thanks for all your explanation.

- Josh


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## Pepper (Nov 16, 2003)

Bump...this is excellent!


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## firestorm (Nov 16, 2003)

Well mudge like you said this is a powerlifters point of view and I couldn't say a negative thing about it.  I only question such things as the following if your a "bodybuilder".
""Try to push the bar toward your feet. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, right? Then why in the world would some coaches advocate pressing in a "J" line toward the rack? If I were to bench the way most trainers are advocating (with my elbows out, bringing the bar down to the chest and pressing toward the rack) my barbell travel distance would be 16 inches. Now, if I pull my shoulder blades together, tuck my chin and elbows, and bring the bar to my upper abdominals or lower chest, then my pressing distance is only 6.5 inches. Now which would you prefer? If you want to push up a bar-bending load of plates, you'd choose the shorter distance. 

Bodybuilders want the longer range of motion they are not looking for record bench presses.  If you don't care about range of motion then you should never touch a dumbell for bench presses ever again.   I doubt very much a powerlifter ever uses dumbells for benches.   
I have always pressed the bar up and back as he said so many trainers tell people.   Just my opinion though.

To take the opposite approach,  some of the best bodybuilders of all time all started out as powerlifters before becoming bodybuilders and that includes Arnold.  Training in the way you described would be benificial to ANY bodybuilder because it will assist him/her in raising their max poundages and the more poundages you use the bigger you will get.  So I say add this style of lift to your workoug once in awhile.


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## firestorm (Nov 16, 2003)

Why YES I do Vanity!!! Who he thinks he is I swear!!!   hahahahahaha

I agree with you on that Vanity, you couldn't give me a powerlifters body.  Mark Henry for example;  blaaaahh  yuk. For a 600 pound bench you can keep it.


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## gr81 (Nov 16, 2003)

Cmon guys, alot of the powerlifters out there aren't the fat 300 lbs guys of the past. I know there are plenty of guys that look like that but there are plenty of guys that are in incredible shape too, more so than before even. I would love to be a great powerlifter, it is such a manlier sport than BB competition wise.


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## firestorm (Nov 16, 2003)

It is more manly as you put it but I still don't like their builds ever the least.  Not even the guys on that ESPN show "worlds strongest men comp"  Now they arent built like my example: Mark Henry but I still don't like them (their builds not the men themselves).  to each his own GR8 that is what makes the world go round.  I'd rather have the 32 inch waist and 53 inch chest.


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## gr81 (Nov 16, 2003)

I'd rather have 21 inch guns and a 40 inch waist personally. I love the giant man look for me. It is great to be lean and all, and don't get me wrong I am a BB for sure, I just want to be as big and strong as possible. there is something to be said for that IMO. ha. 
BB training is just about as manly, or at least it can be if done right, but hoppin up in stage all tan and shaved in a thong isn't as bad ass as throwing up as much weight as possible in a powerlift, no doubt


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## firestorm (Nov 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by vanity *_
> beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> I bet powerlifters mother's think they are the most precious poopsie's on earth.
> ...



Yes but thinking as you 1st stated above, EXXXtreme body builders have a following also including their mothers.  
 

I don't like extreme either but many do.  Hell the judges sure as hell like them more then the more symetric stream line bodybuilders like  Milos Sarchev,and  Bob Paris just to name 2.  
If someone said take this pill and you could have the same build as Milos OR  take THIS pill and you can have the same build as Ron Coleman,  I'd be taking the 1st pill.


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## firestorm (Nov 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> I'd rather have 21 inch guns and a 40 inch waist personally. I love the giant man look for me. It is great to be lean and all, and don't get me wrong I am a BB for sure, I just want to be as big and strong as possible. there is something to be said for that IMO. ha.
> BB training is just about as manly, or at least it can be if done right, but hoppin up in stage all tan and shaved in a thong isn't as bad ass as throwing up as much weight as possible in a powerlift, no doubt



I knew what you meant by manly bro. you didn't have to explain yourself.  I know you didn't mean the physics.  

You did contradict yourself though up there.  In once sentence you said you would "rather" have 21 inch arms and 40 inch waist Personnally"  and then below that you said:  " I am a BB for sure but want to be big /strong/ possible"
So I have to ask you, which is it?  You can't have a 40 inch waist and 21 inch arms and call yourself a bb by its true meaning.   Sure having a 40 inch waist is building your body but it's not what the term Bodybuilder means  which you already know.


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## gr81 (Nov 16, 2003)

I'd be taking pill #2 my friends, ha ha. In fact Fuck it, I'd take both pills, fuck 1 pill. I'd be a house!


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## firestorm (Nov 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by vanity *_
> It's like comparing a Big bear with a horse.
> 
> personal taste.


Again I agree.


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## firestorm (Nov 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> I'd be taking pill #2 my friends, ha ha. In fact Fuck it, I'd take both pills, fuck 1 pill. I'd be a house!




hahahahahaha  you dick!!!  You can't have both pills!!  I already got Dibbs on one of those!!  Take your pill and go away ya selfish bastard bro !!!   hahahahahahaha


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## firestorm (Nov 16, 2003)

Tupac??  Tupac Shakur???  I thought he was skinny?  I think your thinking of Biggy Smalls.


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## Mudge (Nov 16, 2003)

If I bench with the "dead fish" technique it kills my back and my shoulders, I have to bench using this method. On the incline however it is slightly different. For me right now incline is prioritized, then I do decline benching afterwards, I am liking this setup very much.


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## gr81 (Nov 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> So I have to ask you, which is it?  You can't have a 40 inch waist and 21 inch arms and call yourself a bb by its true meaning.   Sure having a 40 inch waist is building your body but it's not what the term Bodybuilder means  which you already know.




its called the offseason man! ha ha. Sure that is the defn of a BB, but I am training with weights to be big AND strong. Since I am probably never gonna compete on any type of high BB level I don't think I have to restrict myself to just being a "BB". I want to be as big and strong as possible, I don't want to be big and not strong. It is my opinion that too many people are foucusing on just developing the muscles without focusing on strength. Whatever happened to the old school attitude of going in there and moving around heavy weight with big movements. Instead everyone wwants to hit the pec deck and tri pressdown to be nice and fit! Fuck that. What about being a highly conditioned athlete which comes from being strong and having endurance. I think that looking like you are strong like some BB do ithout having the hardore strength is false advertising.
In fact the biggest goal that I have for myself when it is all said and done is to deep squat between 700-800 lbs. That is more important to me than a goal weight to reach, any low BF I get to or anything like that. see what I am saying? You can be both. I am a weight trainer i guess, both a strength athlete and a BB b/c I train for both and both are important. It is the strength conditioning that makes you an impressive athlete IMO. It is also much more useful than looking the part alone. You gotta have the whole package. I guess I am just old school like that though, I keep it hardcore my man! believe that


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## firestorm (Nov 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> its called the offseason man! ha ha. Sure that is the defn of a BB, but I am training with weights to be big AND strong. Since I am probably never gonna compete on any type of high BB level I don't think I have to restrict myself to just being a "BB". I want to be as big and strong as possible, I don't want to be big and not strong. It is my opinion that too many people are foucusing on just developing the muscles without focusing on strength. Whatever happened to the old school attitude of going in there and moving around heavy weight with big movements. Instead everyone wwants to hit the pec deck and tri pressdown to be nice and fit! Fuck that. What about being a highly conditioned athlete which comes from being strong and having endurance. I think that looking like you are strong like some BB do ithout having the hardore strength is false advertising.
> In fact the biggest goal that I have for myself when it is all said and done is to deep squat between 700-800 lbs. That is more important to me than a goal weight to reach, any low BF I get to or anything like that. see what I am saying? You can be both. I am a weight trainer i guess, both a strength athlete and a BB b/c I train for both and both are important. It is the strength conditioning that makes you an impressive athlete IMO. It is also much more useful than looking the part alone. You gotta have the whole package. I guess I am just old school like that though, I keep it hardcore my man! believe that



Oh now GR8 nobody in here promotes such gay workouts.  We all stress the importance of the big movements and heavy weight.  Many of us are on GoPros workout and  deads, squats are in there.  reps ranges in the 4 area so Heavy weights are expected.


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## firestorm (Nov 16, 2003)

There is pleanty of "old school" attitude still left around here my man.  I know I'm always reluctant to try new training phylosopies.   In fact it took me a month before I actually tried GoPros workout because the sets were so low.   (I added a few sets here and there but don't tell him)  hahahaha


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## SJ69 (Nov 16, 2003)

Great article, thanks, I'll definately use it.
-Triceps - Very true, the arm is extended, the triceps extends the arm.
-Bodybuilders need to increase their max bench also, by default this increases the weight they can use for reps.
-My chest didn't grow until I started benchin' heavy (heavy for me, that is)  I love low reps 3-6 is where my body responds for chest.


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## firestorm (Nov 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> There is pleanty of "old school" attitude still left around here my man.  I know I'm always reluctant to try new training phylosopies.   In fact it took me a month before I actually tried GoPros workout because the sets were so low.   (I added a few sets here and there but don't tell him)  hahahaha



Point is  Gopro keeps the sets LOW because he expects you to go Balls to the wall on the sets you ARE doing and if your intensity is on track you shouldn't have much left to do any more sets.  That is pretty old school thinking to me.  It certainly isn't any candy ass  low weight High rep workouts.   His high rep workouts are 8!!


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## firestorm (Nov 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by vanity *_
> I think any serious bb could be considered a strength athlete too.
> you don't get big by lifting 10 hex dumbells.



I've said that in myself many times Vanity. It can't be more true.  I like to say,  big weights = big muscles.


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## Mudge (Nov 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by vanity *_
> don't you lift less on your inclines?



Me? Most people would, I am no different. I max about 10% less weight, did 225x11 last time as my opening set.


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## gr81 (Nov 16, 2003)

there are plenty of guys out there that are not nearly as strong as they look. Besides I am not talking baout pro BBs, they are all really big and really strong relative to us. I am talkin about the everyday BB or lifter. You can't deny that a gigantic focus these days is put on being "fit", not strong. I know that the hardcore are out there too, there just aren't as many as there should be. Believe me I know alot of guys that weight train and bb and it is mainly about developing the aesthetics unproprtionately over the strength aspect. I really don't run into many powerlifters. I guess you would have to go to a hardcore powerlifting gym for that though huh! Just being a bodybuilder doesn't necessarily correlate into being a strength athlete. They are not the same thing. I could list hella movements that would fall under the category of strength and endurance training that most BBs never do. they aren't equivocal.


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## oaktownboy (Nov 16, 2003)

like them power cleans


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## firestorm (Nov 16, 2003)

My inclines and flats are just about equal with dumbells.  Straight bar on inclines causes me too much stress on my injured shoulder so I have to stay really light on them so I just don't use incline straight bar much.


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## gr81 (Nov 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> Point is  Gopro keeps the sets LOW because he expects you to go Balls to the wall on the sets you ARE doing and if your intensity is on track you shouldn't have much left to do any more sets.  That is pretty old school thinking to me.  It certainly isn't any candy ass  low weight High rep workouts.   His high rep workouts are 8!!




I know that  Go Pro isn't a pansey. I wasn't referring to him. A person is as hardcore as they want to be!


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## gr81 (Nov 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by oaktownboy *_
> like them power cleans




hell ya, I knew you'd like 'em. How heavy have you gone with them so far? What kind of rp scheme do you use for them man?


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## firestorm (Nov 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by vanity *_
> I think a good philosophy is to get as strong as you can be  while looking good and being healthy and injury free.
> 
> It could be done but you have to have the whole package in your control.



Absolutely Vanity, when I was at the top of my game, I would be able to keep my strength up and bodyfat gain was minimal.  I considered my training "dialed in".  You can't argue with a 495 bench and sporting a 32 inch waste right?


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## firestorm (Nov 17, 2003)

Very well put Vanity.


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## JerseyDevil (Nov 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> Cmon guys, alot of the powerlifters out there aren't the fat 300 lbs guys of the past. I know there are plenty of guys that look like that but there are plenty of guys that are in incredible shape too, more so than before even. I would love to be a great powerlifter, it is such a manlier sport than BB competition wise.



What GR81 said  

Ken Lain the "Mighty Texan" has benched over 700 lbs.  Not a bad physique IMO.


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## firestorm (Nov 17, 2003)

Hey Jersey your absolutely CORRECT!  That guy looks fantastic but I'm thinking of the majority of power lifters and they are built like fire plugs.  Very very thick expecially in the mid sections.  I agree this guy has it all.   I can also see what appears to be side effects of HgH on him but that is besides the point. I can't take anything away from this guy.


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## Mudge (Nov 17, 2003)

The real fatties of powerlifting are outside of the 275 pound class, the SHW guys (super heavyweights).


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## HoldDaMayo (Nov 17, 2003)

"the real fatties"

haha, lmao...

I just want to look good everywhere... if I was standing there... and some crazy person ripped off an article of clothing... REGARDLESS of which part of my body be exposed... I would want to be able to stand there and laugh while the ladies observing raise their eyebrows and make a sound something like... Mmm...


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## firestorm (Nov 17, 2003)

yeaa I like the Umm sound but you wanta know sumpen?  I used to get an even better ego boast when they would say I was too big.  I used to really love hearing I was too big.  Damn days of old gone with the winds of time.  Now the chicks dig me and that sucks.  hahahahaha


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## Mudge (Nov 18, 2003)

Yes, I get comments on my ghetto booty all the time.


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## goal_500_bench (Jul 25, 2004)

firestorm said:
			
		

> It is more manly as you put it but I still don't like their builds ever the least. Not even the guys on that ESPN show "worlds strongest men comp" Now they arent built like my example: Mark Henry but I still don't like them (their builds not the men themselves). to each his own GR8 that is what makes the world go round. I'd rather have the 32 inch waist and 53 inch chest.


I see where you are coming from...alot of those pls have guts that look like their about to bust wide open...but to be able to lift the weight they do is undescribable and I know alot of bb wish they could do it.


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## WilliamB (Apr 1, 2005)

I think people should read this article once a month.


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## WilliamB (Apr 1, 2005)

Bump this one to the top of the Training forums


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## BiggerNstronger (Apr 1, 2005)

WilliamB said:
			
		

> Bump this one to the top of the Training forums



Thanks for the bump, this is exactly what I was searching for when I came to this forum.   I will put it to the test in about an hour!    Update this evening on whether I hit 355+ for the first time in my life.    Goal is 400 by July!


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## jasoncscs (Feb 9, 2010)

thanks for posting the  Dave Tate article. if you're going to listen to  Anybody about benching that would be the guy.


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