# Al Qaeda beheads American contractor on video



## Rob_NC (May 11, 2004)

Now what should we do?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119615,00.html


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## ALBOB (May 11, 2004)

My first reaction is to say "nuke the whole damn place" but that is not the right thing to do.  The entire region isn't to blame, it's just a few sick extremists who need to be hunted down and brutally killed in the same manner they chose to kill us.  And to the idiots among us who think WE are to blame, FUCK YOU!!!  Yeah, a few prisoners got embarrassed, that justifies beheading a man and posting the video on the world wide web?  FUCK YOU again.


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## V Player (May 11, 2004)

I steer clear of these types of threads. But I just cant help but feel we need to blow this damned region off the face of the earth. Period. Dont give me crap about innocents and children dying in the face of war. This make it obvious that the only thing these people understand is like minded actions. They need to be obliterated to a one. My hands are shaking so much in anger and frustration that its hard to type.


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## Dale Mabry (May 11, 2004)

We shoulda finished what we started with them is alls I can say.

I never looked at the video though, I will take your word for it.


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## Rob_NC (May 11, 2004)

Fox stops short of showing all of the video.


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## Dale Mabry (May 11, 2004)

Ahhh, I thought it was a vid, I didn't look that it was an HTML extension.


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## Rob_NC (May 11, 2004)

I want to know who the ass was that leaked the info about being able to track Bin Laden when he uses his cell phone? If that hadn't happened, Bin Laden would have been gone long ago.  Then there's the stupid fuqs in the media that feel it's their partriotic duty to print that shit.


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## Rob_NC (May 11, 2004)

Right now, all the pigeons at Gitmo would be toast. Guilty by association.


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## ALBOB (May 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Rob_NC *_
> Right now, all the pigeons at Gitmo would be toast. Guilty by association.



Oh dear God no.  They're innocent.  They're just helpless prisoners who don't deserve the HORRIBLE way they've been abused by our evil government.


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## OceanDude (May 11, 2004)

I'd say it's about time to reconsider our participation in the Geneva Convention as it relates to Iraq. 

It is high past time to alienate the materminds and their henchmen. I say that we round up relatives and friends of any one we know that is behind this activity and make a statement that each and every time al-qaeda makes a press release that is other than an apology or a surrender that we go on record as saying that we will execute 10 people from the list randomly. We have to make Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and the like an enemy of his own people each and every time he presents himself as a leader. 
Alienation is the only way to stop it.

-OD


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## Stickboy (May 11, 2004)

I'm so pissed off about this.  I'll try and reply later.  Right now my only thought is to kill every last one of these fuckers and be done with it.


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## BUSTINOUT (May 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Stickboy *_
> I'm so pissed off about this.  I'll try and reply later.  Right now my only thought is to kill every last one of these fuckers and be done with it.



Amen.  But I will probably still post thoughts as they come to mind.


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## BUSTINOUT (May 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> The entire region isn't to blame, it's just a few sick extremists who need to be hunted down and brutally killed in the same manner they chose to kill us.



This is one of the few points I might slightly disagree with you buddy.  If muslims around the world and especially in that region do not stand up and condemn these attrocities, they are just as damn guilty.  

This is horseshiat!!!  Come to think of it, I cannot recall one time on this board when a muslim has spoke out against these types of actions.  Don't get me wrong...being Christian, I am NOT anti muslim, but dammit if this is not what Islam stands for, someone should step up pretty damn quick and say so, because they are going to start being judged pretty damn quick based on the actions of these six cowards that cannot even show their faces.  All the while yelling"God is great!"  Lets here some liberal piece of crap try to say NOW that Al Quada has nothing to do with this crap.  Obviously Iraq is now harboring terrorists and terrorism.  Of course they will say this is a direct result of the prison treatment those scumbags rec'd.  Hell, if we were going to abuse them, maybe they should off'd them in the process.  DAMN I'M PISSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  We are dealing with nothing but trash over there...sand sucking trash.


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## senimoni (May 11, 2004)

Its bad enough that soliders are forced to be over there loosing their lives......if you have a choice get the F*ck out....its that simple really.


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## bandaidwoman (May 11, 2004)

I personally know alot of Iranian and Syrian doctors who condemn the murder.  Unfortunately, not alot of them surfing this type of forum.   Unfortunately, alot of them are probably here because the more moderate, liberal minded ones hemmorage out of ther repressive states that are corrupt theocracies.  Trust me, the average Muslim does not condone these actions, especially the ones that are here.  My husband is best freinds with an Afghani male and his wife who fled the Taliban.  They are constently persecuted at their jobs (He works in a factory as a maintenance engineer) in Newton county, georgia.  He can't seem to impress upon them that he is a man of peace because of his religion and this whole jihad, extremist crap doesn't apply to him. (by the way, he is a vegan vegetarian that can't even stomach eating an egg because it is murdering an animal.)


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## LAM (May 11, 2004)

30 years ago this would not have happened as the abuse of those Iraqi prisoners most likely would not have been publicized and the military would have dealt with them on their own accord at the proper time.  

There are many things that happen in wartime that should not made public.  This is one of those times when the First Amendment has come back to bite us in the ass.  Unfortunately because of the abuse scandal by US troops this type of retaliation by Al Qaeda was inevitable???


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## BUSTINOUT (May 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> I personally know alot of Iranian and Syrian doctors who condemn the murder.  Unfortunately, not alot of them surfing this type of forum.   Unfortunately, alot of them are probably here because the more moderate, liberal minded ones hemmorage out of ther repressive states that are corrupt theocracies.  Trust me, the average Muslim does not condone these actions, especially the ones that are here.  My husband is best freinds with an Afghani male and his wife who fled the Taliban.  They are constently persecuted at their jobs (He works in a factory as a maintenance engineer) in Newton county, georgia.  He can't seem to impress upon them that he is a man of peace because of his religion and this whole jihad, extremist crap doesn't apply to him. (by the way, he is a vegan vegetarian that can't even stomach eating an egg because it is murdering an animal.)



Well if they are the only muslims that are opposed to these actions, then we are hurting for sure.  You cannot tell me with the diversity of this board, there are not any here that are not speaking up.  Also the prejudice your husband's friend is experiencing Georgia...well that does not come as a surprise considering the state.  ANd there are probably a million of radicals that won't eat an egg, but would not hesitate in killing a Yank given the chance.


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## Pepper (May 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> Also the prejudice your husband's friend is experiencing Georgia...well that does not come as a surprise considering the state.



This is just an old stereo-type that I am frankly sick of.


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## senimoni (May 11, 2004)

Ironic how everyone is making generalizations, yet we all hate when they are applied to us......just a random thought.....things that make you go hmmmm.


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## Pepper (May 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by senimoni *_
> Ironic how everyone is making generalizations, yet we all hate when they are applied to us......just a random thought.....things that make you go hmmmm.



More ironic is how it is assumed that we are blaming all muslims for this kind of violence.

I don't blame all muslims any more that others should blame me for Christians who kill abortionists. Assholes are assholes, regardless of religion.


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## BUSTINOUT (May 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> This is just an old stereo-type that I am frankly sick of.



Horseshiat...been there...seen it.  You're just jealous because they did not ask you to be in the cast of Deliverance.  lol


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## BUSTINOUT (May 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by senimoni *_
> Ironic how everyone is making generalizations, yet we all hate when they are applied to us......just a random thought.....things that make you go hmmmm.



People will always be subject to generalizations until the show some sack, stand up and say otherwise.  Silence is acceptance.


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## BUSTINOUT (May 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> More ironic is how it is assumed that we are blaming all muslims for this kind of violence.
> 
> I don't blame all muslims any more that others should blame me for Christians who kill abortionists. Assholes are assholes, regardless of religion.



I don't blame all muslims either pepper...but I have still heard no disputes


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## derekisdman (May 11, 2004)

Did anyone actually see the video?  I saw it : /, you don't want to.


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## Mudge (May 11, 2004)

I've seen one of a guys hand getting sawed off, that was enough, it may have been both hands I forget.


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## BUSTINOUT (May 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by derekisdman *_
> Did anyone actually see the video?  I saw it : /, you don't want to.



Nope.  And I won't watch it.  I don't have to look under a manhole cover to see whats underneath.


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## Big Smoothy (May 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Rob_NC *_
> Now what should we do?



This man was just another statistic.  

The FBI has jurisdiction over this case because he was an American citizen.   It will be hard for them to investigate for safety reasons.


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## Hanz29 (May 12, 2004)

I can not, and will never watch that video.....I'm sorry I feel so human.....I don't intend to insult anyone who has seen it,  but if I were to see it, I would probably cry.


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## bandaidwoman (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> People will always be subject to generalizations until the show some sack, stand up and say otherwise.  Silence is acceptance.




If you go to alot of the political forums there will be many muslims who have spoken out against them.   Like I said, there aren't alot on this type of forum....... fitness is not a big issue and their silence on this board does not condemn them.  In addition, there is a certain humility about their bodies and the muslim religion generally prevents such aesthetic appreciation of the human form and so a body building board is just not going to be a big draw for alot of muslims. 

As for hearing any formal apology, remember, most of these countries are theocracies, if one speaks out against this "holy crusade" you are dead.  An Iranian feminist doctor I know had some family members who were still in Iran killed due to some of her political actions here in America.  Turkey and Indonesia are probably some of the very few secular muslim countries.  Thus, we cannot expect any formal outrage from countries whose leaders are radical religious fanatics.  However, their citizens should not be painted with the same brush.  (It's equivalent to  the rest of the world judging me based on Bushwacked.)


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## Pepper (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> Horseshiat...been there...seen it.  You're just jealous because they did not ask you to be in the cast of Deliverance.  lol



I live here! I travel a good bit and I will tell you I am 100% convinced that the South is NO MORE RACIST than any other part of the country. The first time I heard a racial statement yelled at a ballgame? Dodger Stadium.

Give it a rest, it is a tired stereo-type that is BS.


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## Pepper (May 12, 2004)

*Re: Re: Al Qaeda beheads American contractor on video*



> _*Originally posted by Mr_Snafu *_
> This man was just another statistic.



With every passing day, I feel more and more sorry for you. I don't know what your problem is, but I wish you'd take it somewhere else.


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## Rob_NC (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> I live here! I travel a good bit and I will tell you I am 100% convinced that the South is NO MORE RACIST than any other part of the country. The first time I heard a racial statement yelled at a ballgame? Dodger Stadium.
> 
> Give it a rest, it is a tired stereo-type that is BS.




I agree.  In some ways, I feel the South is less racist. I don't see the activites from our colored friends down here that perpetuate racist attitudes and actions from others.


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## OceanDude (May 12, 2004)

I agree with Pepper and Rob. In many ways the majority of the South is more civil than anywhere else in the country in the racial department. Perhaps we should spin off a new thread. But really, you guys up north should see some of the warmth and sense of "family" that is integrated in many of the deep south communities. In some of the older cities that go way back to the beginning of the country you will see an embedded culture of respect and warmth that can just amaze you. There is real honest to goodness culture and a genteel (in the good connotation of the word) demeanor in some of the nicer cities among the races. If you look for it among the uneducated poor you will always be able to find the class hatred and bigotry but this will always exist anywhere in the world. But so many people confuse the issue class with race and the two are worlds and cultures apart. Most of the so called race issues in this country are nothing of the sort they are just "class" issues and the ignorant people can't see the difference.

OD


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## kbm8795 (May 12, 2004)

Having lived in the South for a decade, I tend to believe that the culture is often misunderstood.  It does seem true that the region can often resist change, especially in long-established social relationships, but not necessarily moreso than, say, my own roots in the rural Midwest. 

At the same time, the image is often perpetuated by situations that exist in certain areas. Alabama, for example, took their ban on interracial relationships off the books only a couple of years ago. Similarly, there have been a couple of school district officials who faced court challenges over attempts to prevent interracial couples from attending local proms. 

As far as the beheading video is concerned, it makes me wonder about how wise we were about enlisting reconstruction contractors before resistance in Iraq was largely eliminated. Apparently, the contractor killed had traveled there on his own to repair broadcasting towers, but wasn't associated with a government program or the military. At least two news reports have indicated that as recently as March, he was apprehended by Iraqi authorities at a checkpoint after curfew and apparently held by Americans for 13 days - when he was supposed to be coming home. Now the family is filing a second lawsuit against the U.S. government - one report claimed they had filed suit because he was previously held without any due process, but the family dropped the case when he called home. 

While we obviously need civilian contractors over there to speed up the reconstruction plans, it looks like we need a better handle on who our citizens are and what they are doing there. Our military can't protect 20,000 of them without some kind of knowledge. 

When there is a single attack in another country, our State Department issues warnings for American citizens to leave - obviously we can't do that in Iraq without risking any momentum in reconstruction. But we are also limited in how we can furnish protection if people go into a dangerous situation and expect complete freedom of movement - it's still too risky.


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## Big Smoothy (May 12, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Al Qaeda beheads American contractor on video*



> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> With every passing day, I feel more and more sorry for you. I don't know what your problem is, but I wish you'd take it somewhere else.



Let me CLARIFY my statement, for the upteenth time.

His death was a tragedy.  Sickening.

But it was another death in this war.  Get used to it.

We have only seen a small fraction of the deaths and permanent injuries in Iraq--a mess people like you support.  

His beheading was sickening, yet no different than being shot, hit by an RPG, or driving over a landmine.

THINK ABOUT IT!!!


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## Rob_NC (May 12, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Al Qaeda beheads American contractor on video*



> _*Originally posted by Mr_Snafu *_
> Let me CLARIFY my statement, for the upteenth time.
> 
> His death was a tragedy.  Sickening.
> ...




The difference lies in the fact that it was made public and it was intentional.  We only hear of the military casualties AFTER they happen. Usually, nobody is there to film it.


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## kuso (May 12, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Al Qaeda beheads American contractor on video*



> _*Originally posted by Rob_NC *_
> The difference lies in the fact that it was made public and it was intentional.  We only hear of the military casualties AFTER they happen. Usually, nobody is there to film it.



Didn`t I read the same post in the thread about soliers killing/abusing prisoners?


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## Vieope (May 12, 2004)

[IMG2]http://www.lacofd.org/HHMD/HHMD_NLtr/V04I01/Nuclear_Bomb.gif[/IMG2]

_..that was my first reaction too but I still believe in humanity and all that peace thing.. _


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## Rob_NC (May 12, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Al Qaeda beheads American contractor on video*



> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> Didn`t I read the same post in the thread about soliers killing/abusing prisoners?




I don't recall that any of our people have killed prisoners intentionally and I question the so-called abuse. I see it more as humiliation.

I'm somewhat sure the photos that are circulating weren't meant to be seen outside the little "torture ring" that took them.


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## kuso (May 12, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Al Qaeda beheads American contractor on video*



> _*Originally posted by Rob_NC *_
> I don't recall that any of our people have killed prisoners intentionally and I question the so-called abuse.



One of the photo`s I saw was labelled "beaten to death" and the guy looked,....well, dead.



> _*Originally posted by Rob_NC *_
> I see it more as humiliation.



You not see the dog tearing the guys leg open? Or the guy getting hit in the jewels with the rifle butt?



> _*Originally posted by Rob_NC *_
> I'm somewhat sure the photos that are circulating weren't meant to be seen outside the little "torture ring" that took them.



But they were seen. I`d be surprised if more killings like the one that just happened haven`t been happening for awhile.....this one being more public as they now have an excuse to make it so ( unless of course you subscrib the the snowballing theory that the US is infact behind the killing ).


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## Rob_NC (May 12, 2004)

I'm not aware of the photos you describe.  Guess I need to crawl out of my hole.


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## CourtQueen (May 12, 2004)

Educate and empower the women.  It would totally change that region.


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## OceanDude (May 12, 2004)

I am weary of hearing the word ???humiliation??? coming from the fanatic Arab element. The fundamental problem is that these people are supreme egotists and anything that makes them look less than perfect is an affront to their egos. The truth is, almost *everything* in existence in today???s world (and in the past) or every incident they see or hear reinforces the fact that they are complete rejects to humanity and are not the glorious and perfect holy warriors that they fancy themselves to be. This they find humiliating.. This is a culture that is disintegrating and they will be happy to grasp at any childish excuse they can to justify slaughtering innocents and to stir the rank and file to action. This is another problem ??? as a people they are immature and unable to transition to adult behavior. They are literally as children throwing temper tantrums in efforts to get attention and respect.  Deep down they know that they are the lowest form of scum on the planet and through their conniptions have fallen from humanity. They believe it is appropriate to ???give up their souls to hell??? for the greater good. And that is what makes these people so hideously insane. There are psychologically damaged beyond all hope of recovery. They have become creatures of living hate and will act out of all forms of spite to attempt to bring humanity to their levels of degradation. That is the only way they can level the playing field. They are evil in the purest form of the word. We would be merciful in remembering that at one time they were human by shooting them on sight any time we can find them.

OD


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## kbm8795 (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by CourtQueen *_
> Educate and empower the women.  It would totally change that region.




That is actually one of our goals - the new Iraqi constitution is supposed to guarantee women 25% of the seats in the national assembly. Of course, that isn't a proportional number in accordance to the country's gender population. 

Ironically, it will give women in Iraq more representation than they currently have here in the United States. After 80+ years of having voting rights, American women constitute about 12% of our Congress.


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## CourtQueen (May 12, 2004)

It is the private sector vs. the goverment institution that this needs to happen.


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## bandaidwoman (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> I live here! I travel a good bit and I will tell you I am 100% convinced that the South is NO MORE RACIST than any other part of the country. The first time I heard a racial statement yelled at a ballgame? Dodger Stadium.
> 
> Give it a rest, it is a tired stereo-type that is BS.




So true!  Considering Atlanta has the distinction of harboring the most amount of upper middle class African Americans in America and labelled the place for an African American to succeed, * it is no longer "Deliverance"*.

 A prominent monument to John Wesley Dobbs, the godfather of Black business in Atlanta, also testifies that "Sweet" Auburn Avenue, is home to one of the nation's oldest sustained Black business districts. It is anchored by the second largest Black life insurance company and one of the largest Black banks. 

*No other city matches Atlanta University Center (AUC), with its six historically Black colleges and only Howard University can rival AUC for producing the most Black post-graduates.*

While some cities celebrate their 1st or 2nd Black mayor,Atlanta counts many candidates entering the race every electoral year to become the next strong Black mayor._ In other words, don't paint us with a Hollywood's rendition of what the South is._ 

*I have seen my share of Hill billys up in the mountains of New England, especially Vermont and New Hampshire as well as Colorado. *These guys make the Deliverance yahoos look like sophisticated erudites. It has its problems, but it also has greatness that many from the North do not see (I'm an exNew Yorker)


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## Dale Mabry (May 12, 2004)

Isn't Georgia the state where that school has separate proms for whites, blacks, and hispanics?

I remember watching something about it where a member of the school board says it is a shame and no one will say it publicly, but alot of parents prefer it this way.

I don't really think it is a matter of North vs South so much as Big City vs small rural town.  I am from VT and racism is not rampant in Burlington, but if you go into the hills, there are some very bad peeps.

I woudl also like to point out that alot of races perpetuate separation.  At my college, me and friends hung out with this guy Yan for a couple years.  When he became a junior he joined this ASian club and we pass him on campus and not get so much as a hello.


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## bandaidwoman (May 12, 2004)

Kuso, you are right.  There seems to be more than humiliation and physical abuse.


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=519448



> The Bush administration was bracing itself last night for the release of new pictures and video footage from Abu Ghraib which show_US soldiers having sex with an Iraqi woman prisoner, troops almost beating a prisoner to death, and * the rape of young boys by Iraqi guards at the jail.* _
> 
> Senior officials have warned that the new images and details of the abuse and torture at the prison west of Baghdad will be even more shocking than those already released.



so rape, murder, pedophilia rape can be added to list.


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## Dale Mabry (May 12, 2004)

So one would have to ask if the exact details of the abuse are absolutely necessary for the public to know considering there are a bunch of our guys being held as well.


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## CourtQueen (May 12, 2004)

I agree.  There is a point to the whole "right to know media crap" that isn't right.


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## OceanDude (May 12, 2004)

Given the total lawlessness of the region and the fact that this is a transition period it does little constructive good to begin a round of US public self flagellation and dirty laundry airing. In fact it is insane to do so and can only further hurt us to the point of crippling us completely. In the old days it would be called treason to go down this path blatantly against our national policy in a way that can only undermine our efforts. What is it with this country where we feel that we must always expiate our guilt and purge ourselves of these minor things before we accomplish the mission? We are not always perfect and we hold ourselves to a standard that we can never meet to give the impression that we are just and righteous. This has elements in pride that is similar to our enemies. It is completely pretentious and venial. It is profoundly foolish to focus on our own faults before we can cure the pervasive infection of Al-Qaeda. To me, what???s going on in the press it???s a vetting of national psychosis and neurosis. We need balance.  This prisoner abuse thing is still mild compared to the utter lunacy and mayhem of the region. It???s akin to having the surgeon slap himself silly for having impromptu thoughts of having an affair with a heart transplant???s wife in the event the patient died  - just before he finishes up the heart transplant operation.

Let???s wipe out Al-Qaeda then after words give the distracters special grant money to go study how we could do it better next time around. It???s just a different form or ransom when you get right down to it.

OD


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## LazyByNature (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> Isn't Georgia the state where that school has separate proms for whites, blacks, and hispanics?
> 
> 
> I woudl also like to point out that alot of races perpetuate separation.  At my college, me and friends hung out with this guy Yan for a couple years.  When he became a junior he joined this ASian club and we pass him on campus and not get so much as a hello.



I remember hearing about this but I don't invest too much of time into stupid things.  The school didn't organize or promote the seperate proms thing.  They were private parties, just like the ones that occur every weekend, held off of school property.  Somebody in the press probably called them proms and the story took off.  Don't know for sure and I don't care.

As for the voluntary seperations of the races, I agree completely.  Go into any high school or college dinning hall and you will see it.  I think that its human nature for people to want to be around others who are the same as they are.  Its not good, its not bad, its just the way that it is.   When people start stopping free association and forcing segration it is bad.

Atlanta is one of the most diverse cities in the country with the largest black middle class in the country and large populations of Indian (India) and Asian people.   Black friends of mine have told me that they experienced much more racism in the Norht than in the South.  Specifically in Chicago and Chicago isn't a small town by any means.   Of course I know people have experienced racism in the South too, its not perfect here either.


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## OceanDude (May 12, 2004)

^^ footnote:
It???s funny how people often forget that this country has a very fundamental right that for some seems as anathema to their personal belief systems. Namely, we all have the constitutional right to ???free association???. In other words picking who your friends are ranks right up there with free speech. 

-OD


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## Dale Mabry (May 12, 2004)

Yeah, I prefer a more diverse mix of peeps.  Being from VT I got to hang around with all the white folk I needed for 20 years.

What I found odd about my friend Yan was that it seemed more like groupthink, his Asian friends did not think he should hang around with us so he eventually thought that way too.  Psych explains so many things it is amazing.


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## maniclion (May 12, 2004)

For all you guy's who say lets destroy Al-Qaeda and all of our other enemies, I'm sure we would if we could find them.  

As for racisim, I am a minority in Hawaii being a haole(honky,whitey).  Most of the population here is Asian when I arrived in 1996 I first felt like I was in a foreign land, but the people treat everyone with the same respect except for some of the older folks who still get nervous around black people.  I have Egyptian friends who own a car rental company one day some mainlander haoles came to rent a car and took notice that they were "Arab" looking and decided not to "support a terrorist" as they put it, one of their Samoan employees took offense to it and almost jumped over the counter to kill them.  So the moral of the story is, If you come to Hawaii leave your racist mindset on the Mainland.


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## splatman (May 12, 2004)

I'm just a messenger...you can see the whole video here  You be the judge. I agree death is death, but this man is very alive as his head is being ripped off (very dull knife). As for all the prisioner abuse I haven't seen the evidence to prove what happened just photos.This video speaks for itself.

I had to push play to the it to work (slow buffer too).


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## kuso (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> Kuso, you are right.  There seems to be more than humiliation and physical abuse.



In the photo`s I have seen there was one of three soldiers having sex with a woman....she certainly didn`t appear to be a willing participant, though as it wasn`t like any of the other photo`s I was/am not sure if it was real or not.


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## splatman (May 12, 2004)

Those photos your referencing are fake. Boston Globe publishes bogus GI rape pictures


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## Vieope (May 12, 2004)

_Anybody saw the complete video that was posted above ? _


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## kuso (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by splatman *_
> Those photos your referencing are fake. Boston Globe publishes bogus GI rape pictures




Well, I wouldn`t know as they don`t show the particular picture I saw.

And yes, I`ve seen the video, though not from the link above


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## BUSTINOUT (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> 
> As for hearing any formal apology, remember, most of these countries are theocracies, if one speaks out against this "holy crusade" you are dead.  An Iranian feminist doctor I know had some family members who were still in Iran killed due to some of her political actions here in America.  Turkey and Indonesia are probably some of the very few secular muslim countries.  Thus, we cannot expect any formal outrage from countries whose leaders are radical religious fanatics.  However, their citizens should not be painted with the same brush.  (It's equivalent to  the rest of the world judging me based on Bushwacked.)


I could not agree more BAW.  It's pretty sad that people cannot stand up against these actions.  But that tells you right there where most of these countries stand on these issues...regardless of their lack of direct participation.  By no means do I think all muslims should be painted with the same brush.  Some of the greatest friends I have are muslim(bodybuilding friends at that) and this sickens them.  They are greatful to live in a place where they can say that too.


----------



## BUSTINOUT (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> I live here! I travel a good bit and I will tell you I am 100% convinced that the South is NO MORE RACIST than any other part of the country. The first time I heard a racial statement yelled at a ballgame? Dodger Stadium.


I won't argue with that pepper.  Crap, I live in AZ and they screwed themselves out of a Super Bowl game by not observing MLK Day.  But on another note, I've been in some pissant towns down your way and have seen quite a bit.  The city has prolly grown out of it.


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## OceanDude (May 12, 2004)

I started to follow the link. Then when it was slow to load I just decided I don't want to see it out of respect for the man and his family. So I terminated the connection before it started.

-OD


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## maniclion (May 12, 2004)

Terrorists are such pussies they have to have 5 guys standing over 1 hostage with guns where as in our prisoner photos there is one woman standing by mocking them unarmed.  They cover their heads and not the hostage, we cover the prisoners and not the guards.


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## Vieope (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> I just decided I don't want to see it out of respect for the man and his family.
> -OD


_The was the other reason why I didn´t watch it too._


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## OceanDude (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by maniclion *_
> Terrorists are such pussies they have to have 5 guys standing over 1 hostage with guns where as in our prisoner photos there is one woman standing by mocking them unarmed.  They cover their heads and not the hostage, we cover the prisoners and not the guards.



If the woman GI under investigation was clever she could have told the investigators that her uniform regulations did not permit her to respectfully cover her head with a shroud as was their custom. So out of respect to the naked muslim men's honor she elected instead to cover their heads with a veil so they would not be able to see her unveiled face and be disgraced in their nakedness. 


-OD


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## Dero (May 12, 2004)

Hmmmmm,let's have a look at these events.

-Twinn Towers blown to bits(many people died)
-War in Iraq(many more people died)
-Cleanup in Iraq(more death)
-Pictures of prisoners,made public.
-Civilian contractor decapitated.

     
What's next,what will it take to end it?
Mass destruction?(more death)

Just thinking out loud...


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## tomas101 (May 12, 2004)

watch at your own risk 
shits really sad..especially hearing him screaming for his life...i would love to know what they were saying when they were reading those papers and the last line he said b4 the beheading...but its bush's fault...he told us to go over there and will be paid up to 100,000 dollars to work in iraq...the man was just trying to better his life...sad to see


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## moon (May 12, 2004)

those savage uncivilised Arabs....
never evolved i think...


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## PreMier (May 12, 2004)

You have got to be fucking kidding me...


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## bandaidwoman (May 13, 2004)

Well, I was wrong, there has been some formal condemnation of the act by some countries.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/13/iraq.berg/index.html




> *Three Arab states condemn American's beheading
> Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE decry 'barbaric act'
> Thursday, May 13, 2004 Posted: 5:02 AM EDT (0902 GMT) *





> (CNN) -- Three Arab states -- Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates --- are condemning the beheading of American Nicholas Berg by his Iraqi captors, shown in a video that appeared on an Islamist Web site.
> 
> "There is no doubt that killing detainees and mutilating the remains of the dead are acts which are condemned by all religions and contrary to the morals of all nations and peoples," Saudi Ambassador Prince Bandar bin Sultan said in a statement released Wednesday.
> 
> ...


----------



## bandaidwoman (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by moon *_
> those savage uncivilised Arabs....
> never evolved i think...



Let's see what those less evolved Arabs have done:

1.Arabs enhanced and developed the arts and sciences and preserved the libraries of the early centuries of the Greek, Roman, and Byzantine cultures during the Dark Ages of Europe.  




2. In mathematics, the Arab sifr, or zero, provided new solutions for complicated mathematical problems. Not to mention the Arabic numeric system that we all use or else we would still be writing XX, XXI, etc. instead of 20 or 21.

3. The Arab decimal system facilitated the course of science. 

4. The Arabs invented and developed algebra and made great strides in trigonometry. Al-Khwarizmi was credited with the founding of algebra

5.  Arab astronomers of the Middle Ages compiles astronomical charts and tables in observatories such as those at Palmyra and Maragha. Gradually, they were able to determine the length of a degree,* to establish longitude and latitude, and to investigate the relative speeds of sound and light.*

8.   Al-Biruni, considered one of the greatest scientists of all time, discussed the possibility of the earth???s rotation on its own axis ???* a theory proven by Galileo six centuries later.*

9.  Arab astronomers such as al-Fezari, al-Farghani, and al-Zarqali added to the works of Ptolemy and the classic pioneers in the development of the magnetic compass and the charting of the zodiac.

10. Al-Razi, a medical encyclopedist of the ninth century, was an authority on contagion. Al-Razi * was the first to diagnose smallpox and measles,* to associate these diseases and others with human contamination and contagion, to introduce such remedies as mercurial ointment, *and to use animal gut for sutures.* 

11.  The famous scientist-philosopher known in Europe as Avicenna was Ibn Sina, an Arab. Avicenna did pioneer work in mental health, and was a forerunner of today???s psychotherapists. He believed that some illnesses were psychosomatic, and he sometimes led patients back to a recollection of an incident buried in the subconscious in order to explain the present ailment. 
(Sounds familiar?)


12.  In the fourteenth Century, when the Great Plague ravaged the world, Ibn Khatib and Ibn Khatima of Granada recognized that it was spread by contagion. In his book, Kitabu???l Maliki, al-Maglusi showed a rudimentary conception of the capillary system; an Arab from Syria, Ibn al-Nafis, discovered the fundamental principles of pulmonary circulation. 

13.  Camphor, cloves, myrrh, syrups, juleps, and rosewater were stocked in Arab sydaliyah (pharmacies) centuries ago. Herbal medicine was widely used in the Middle East, and basil, oregano, thyme, fennel, anise, licorice, coriander, rosemary, nutmeg, and cinnamon found their way through Arab pharmacies to European tables. 


14.  Designs from the Islamic mosques of Jerusalem, Mecca, Tripoli, Cairo, Damascus, and Constantinople were borrowed in the building of ribbed vaults in Europe. The Arab use of cubal transitional supports under domes was incorporated into the cathedrals and palaces of eleventh and twelfth century Palermo. 


15.  The world???s earliest navigational and geographical charts were developed by Canaanites who, probably simultaneously with the Egyptians, discovered the Atlantic Ocean. 

16.  The medieval Arabs improved upon ancient navigational practices with the development of the 

17.  It should also be remembered that in the fifteenth century Vasco da Gama, exploring the east coast of Africa new Malindi, was guided by an Arab pilot who used maps never before seen by Europeans. The pilot???s name was Ahmed ibn Majid. 

18. They contributed to agricultural science as well.    a) They were able to graft a single vine so that it would bear grapes in different colors, and their vineyards were responsible for the future of wine industries of Europe. 

         b) Peach, apricot, and loquat trees were transplanted in southern Europe by Arab soldiers. The hardy olive was encouraged to grow in the sandy soil of Greece, Spain, and Sicily. 

         c) From India they introduced the cultivation of sugar, and from Egypt they brought cotton to European markets. ???

         d) They also perfected the storage of soft fruits to be eaten fresh throughout the year. 

18.  Bulb flowers were already in a highly hybridized and cultivated state when the Crusaders carried them home from Palestine to western Europe toward the end of the centuries of Arab power. Rice, Sesame, pepper, ginger, cloves, melons and shallots, as well as dates, figs, oranges, lemons, and other citrus fruits, were introduced into European cuisine via the Crusaders and the trade caravans of Eastern merchants. 

19.  They invented the water wheel, cisterns, irrigation, water wells at fixed levels, and the water clock. In 860, the three sons of Musa ibn Shakir published the Book on Artifices, which described a hundred technical constructions. One of the earliest philosophers, al-Kindi, wrote on specific weight, tides, light reflection and optics. 

20.  Al-Haytham (known in Europe as Alhazen) wrote a book in the tenth century on optics, Kitab Al Manazir. He explored optical illusions, the rainbow, and the camera obscura (which led to the beginning of photographic instruments). He also made discoveries in atmospheric refractions (mirages and comets, for example), studied the eclipse, and laid the foundation for the later development of the microscope and the telescope. Al-Haytham did not limit himself to one branch of the sciences, but like many of the Arab scientists and thinkers, explored and made contributions to the fields of physics, anatomy and mathematics. 


21.  The Arabs further developed the art of crucible steel forging. They hardened the steel, polished and decorated it with etchings, and produced tempered Damascene swords.


22.  The Arabic language is rich and pliant, and poetry, literature, and drama have left their mark on both East and West. Among the earliest publications of the Arabs were the translations into Arabic of the Greek and Roman classics ??? the works of Aristotle, Plato, Hippocrates, Ptolemy, Dioscorides and Galen. Some note that the poet Nizami???s translations of the twelfth century romance, Layla and Majnun, may have been an inspiration for the later work, Romeo and Juliet. Ibn Tufail???s Hayy ibn Yaqzan (Alive, Son of Awake), considered by many to be the first real novel, was translated by Pocock into Latin in 1671 and by Simon Ockley into English in 1708. It bears many similarities to Defoe???s Robinson Crusoe. A Thousand and One Nights and Omar Khayyam???s Rubaiyat are among the best loved and most widely read of Arab literature. 

22. the Arabs developed a system of historiography called isnad. This procedure documents all reliable sources and it provides the modern historian with accurate and comprehensive materials. Foremost among these historiographers was Ibn Khaldun, of whose Book of Examples Arnold Toynbee writes: ???Ibn Khaldun, has conceived and formulated a philosophy of history which is undoubtedly the greatest work of its kind that has ever yet been created by any mind in any time.??? 

23. 
    The harp, lyre, zither, drum, tambourine, flute, oboe and reed instruments are today either exactly as they were used from earliest Arab civilization or variations of the Arabs??? early musical instruments. The guitar and mandolin are sisters to that plaintive, pear-shaped stringed instrument, the oud. 


24.  Arab poetry was put to music the subtle delicacy of minor key sequences and rhythm. The modes continue to influence our ballads and folk songs today. Extempore poetry was perfected into musical expression, and Arab wedding and other occasions are still celebrated with extempore versing and musical composition. 

25.  In government and law, one refers to Hammurabi (Babylonian), Ulpian and Papinian (Phoenicians). 

(The above list is compiled mainly from Cleveland State University???s Ethnic Heritage Studies Program by Mary Macon.)

Yep, those unevolved, uncivilised subhumans!

Perhaps it shows what happens when radical religious extremism takes root.


----------



## LazyByNature (May 13, 2004)

Have they done anything to advance society in the last 100 years of so?

Part of the reason that they feel humiliation so bad is that they were supposedly so advanced 1,000 years ago and since then they haven't done anything and have fallen behind the rest of the world.

Evolution is a continuous thing.  If you haven't advanced in the last 100 to 1,000 years you are unevolved.


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## bandaidwoman (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by LazyByNature *_
> Have they done anything to advance society in the last 100 years of so?
> 
> Part of the reason that they feel humiliation so bad is that they were supposedly so advanced 1,000 years ago and since then they haven't done anything and have fallen behind the rest of the world.
> ...



Individual arabs continue to advance science , but not in their countries where religion,not science, governs the people.  One of the best Emory cardiologist doing novel angiogensis research is an Iranian, a fellow Pakistinian female hematologist oncologist is doing astounding work in the field of bone marrow transplant

 They are "Americans" and now label themselves as such after fleeing their respective regimes.  Do not condemn the people, condemn the government of these countries who use religion to keep a majority in the dark ages.  Release that yolk, and they will surprise you.  (as these collegue scientists of mine show.)

Bush is following their footsteps by trying to regress science in the field of stem cell transplant research.  Fetal cell research can be done on the "extra" fetuses that get flushed down the toilet after embryos are harvested for reproductive in vitro fertilization.  (I actually have a problem with that since I believe adoption is more humane and better for humanity than propagating our genes selfishly.)


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## Pepper (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> Individual arabs continue to advance science , but not in their countries where religion,not science, governs the people.



You consistent blaming of religion for the troubles is a bit annoying. Religion does not hinder societies. The problem in the middle east is simply that they are fanatics.

Blaming religion for that is absurd, IMO.


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## Pepper (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> 
> Bush is following their footsteps by trying to regress science in the field of stem cell transplant research.  Fetal cell research can be done on the "extra" fetuses that get flushed down the toilet after embryos are harvested for reproductive in vitro fertilization.



So, if it advances science it is, per se, good. Some things are just wrong and should not be pursued even if it annoys the scientists.


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## bandaidwoman (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> You consistent blaming of religion for the troubles is a bit annoying. Religion does not hinder societies. The problem in the middle east is simply that they are fanatics.
> 
> Blaming religion for that is absurd, IMO.




It is not religion.   It is when religion is in a position of political power. Power corrupts.  It is when politics and religion combine together that corrupts a beautiful religion wether it is islam or christianity.  Christianity , in the past was judged by its abuse by those in power, look at the middle ages, look at the Protestant Catholic wars.   The Arabs have not forgotten the crusade.  That's why America's seperation of church and state is wonderful.  It is no surprise that the few muslim nations that are our allies have secular governments (ie Turkey) rather than ayatollas who run the show.  The fanatical muslim religion holding political office do not allow for  the advancement of science in much the same way the Catholic church persecuted Gallaleo.  

I have no contention with relgion, but people point to the muslim religion (peaceful) as the culprit behind all the mess in the middle east and the actions of the fanatics.  My point is, it is not the religion, it is the political infrastructure (theocracies)  that nurtures such extremism.   In fact, can anyone point to a successful theocratic government?  

 Let's also not forget that the extreme muslim religion does not allow half of their population engage in scientific inquiry, the women.  Considering how many women have won the nobel prize, it is a shame to suppress that intellectual pool.


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## Pepper (May 13, 2004)

You are correct, power does corrupt. The problem is not the mix of religion and politics, it is the lack of democracy.

With or without religion, governments with no accountability go south (or as we like to say down here, go north)


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## tomas101 (May 13, 2004)

HERE'S THE TRANSLATION B4 THE BEHEADING THAT THEY WERE READING


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This translation is by the National Virtual Translation Center (NVTC) and made possible by DARPA???s eTIRR (???enhanced TIDES Iraq Reconstruction Report???) research effort. TIDES World Press Reports participation in this effort is sponsored by the Corporation for National Research Initiatives (CNRI) and the Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center (SPAWAR). Use of this material does not reflect official endorsement. The opinions expressed in this document do not reflect the opinion of DARPA, CNRI, or of the U.S. Government. This report may be freely redistributed without prior permission; however, reproduction in whole or in part for private use or gain is prohibited.

Editor's note: Al-Qa'ida's leader in Iraq Abu Musab al-Zarqawi beheaded an American civilian and vowed more killings in revenge for the "Satanic degradation" of Iraqi prisoners, in a video statement dated May 11, 2004. After reading a statement, the masked men in the video push the 26-year-old American to the floor and shout "God is greatest" above his screams as one of them (allegedly al-Zarqawi himself), saws off his head with a large knife and then holds it aloft for the camera. A beheaded body found in Baghdad over the previous weekend was positively identified as Berg before the videotape was released. 


[The man introduces himself, his family, and where he lived]



"My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael, my mother's name is Suzanne; I have a brother and sister, David and Sarah. I live in??? [Westchester, New York???.Philadelphia (indistinct).]" 





[Statement read by masked man]:



Praise to Allah who honored Islam with His support, humiliated the infidels with His power, controlled everything with His Command, and tricked the infidels. Prayers and peace be upon the one that raised the banner of Islam with his sword.



Nation Of Islam, 



Great news! The signs of dawn have begun and the winds of victory are blowing. Allah has granted us a great victory, in one of his battles in Fallujah. Thanks to Allah alone.



Nation of Islam,



Is there any excuse left to sit idly by? How can a free Muslim sleep soundly while Islam is being slaughtered, its honor bleeding and the images of shame in the news of the satanic abuse of the Muslim men and women in the prison of Abu-Ghraib. Where is your zeal and where is the anger for the religion of Allah? And where is the jealousy over the honor of the Muslims and where is the revenge for the honor of the Muslim men and women in the prisons of the Crusaders?



As for you, scholars of Islam, it is to Allah that we complain about you. Don???t you see that Allah has established the evidence against you by the youth of Islam, who have humiliated the greatest power in history and broken its nose and destroyed its arrogance?



Hasn???t the time come for you to learn from them the meaning of reliance on God and to learn from their actions the lessons of sacrifice and forebearance? How long will you remain like the women, knowing no better than to wail, scream and cry?



One scholar appeals to the free people of this world, another begs Kofi Annan, a third seeks help from 'Amr Musa and a fourth calls for peaceful demonstrations as if they did not hear the words of Allah "O Messenger, rally the believers to fight!"



Aren???t you fed up with the jihad of conferences and the battles of sermons? Has the time not come for you to lift the sword, which the master of the Messengers was sent with?



And we hope that you will not intervene as usual by denouncing what we do to please the Americans. The Prophet, the master of the merciful has ordered to cut off the heads of some of the prisoners of Badr in patience. He is our example and a good role model.



As for you, Bush dog of the Christians, we promise you things that will displease you. With Allah???s assistance, hard days are coming to you. You and your soldiers are going to regret the day that you stepped foot in Iraq and dared to violate the Muslims.



Another message for the collaborator and traitor Pervez Musharraf; we say to you, we can not wait to welcome your soldiers. By Allah, we will target them before the Americans and will avenge the blood of our brothers in Wana and others.



As for you, mothers and wives of the American soldiers, we say to you that we offered the American Administration the chance to exchange this prisoner for some of the prisoners in Abu-Ghraib, but they refused. We say to you, the dignity of the Muslim men and women in the prison of Abu Ghraib and others will be redeemed by blood and souls. You will see nothing from us except corpse after corpse and casket after casket of those slaughtered in this fashion.



"So kill the infidels wherever you see them, take them, sanction them, and await them in every place" 



END


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## LazyByNature (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> Christianity , in the past was judged by its abuse by those in power, look at the middle ages, look at the Protestant Catholic wars.



The key phrase is "in the past".   The western cultures and Christianity have evolved where as the majority of Middle Eastern countries, dominated by Islam, have not.

I initially responded to your contention that Muslims/Islam weren't unevolved because they did things thousands of years ago.   

When an individual Muslim escapes their Middle Eastern Islamic dominated culture and comes to America they enter the American culture and are no longer part of the Middle Eastern Islamic dominated culture (unless they are part of a sleeper cell or Islamic missionaries trying to destory the culture that made America so much better than where they came from).   So, I consider the majority of Muslim Americans as American and don't associate them with the amimals that claim to represent Islam in countries like Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, ...


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## bandaidwoman (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> You are correct, power does corrupt. The problem is not the mix of religion and politics, it is the lack of democracy.
> 
> With or without religion, governments with no accountability go south (or as we like to say down here, go north




I think we have both been arguing the same principle from different angles.   Democracy, or near semblence is the key, as you stated, and   the very nature of theocracies would prohibit any form of democracy.


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## JLB001 (May 13, 2004)

I don't think whole group of Arabs or people of that Nationality are bad.  I think they have a many bad seeds like any nationality has.  

We just tend to group them all together when we shouldn't.  Not everyone in their nationality supports what they have done or what their beliefs may be.

I do believe that the one's that did this to Berg should be punished.  I don't think it is right that this is their way to get "even" do to a few indecent photographs of people of their nationality.  I don't believe America should be making this big of a deal over those photos.  I believe we should be spending our time getting out of their country and let them do as they will.  We got what we went after to begin with.  Sadam.  I see this as something we will not win or benefit from as a country.  It will only cost more lives on both sides of the fence.

Craig did watch that video, coming from him it was very harsh and brutal.  He can pretty much stomach anything, but this really turned his in a big way.  I was going to watch, had it qued up on the pc...but then decided it wasn't worth it to see such a person die in such a harsh way and that I certainly would not want it broadcast for everyone to see if it every happened to me.  My watching it would have been a BIG disrepect to his family who is already having to deal with the harshness, the brutallity, and death of a family member they so dearly loved.  Our media can be relentless in its pursuit to cover stories that draw us in, but I think in this case they need to let the family mourn and deal with this in private.  Just my 2 cents....I'll go back to being quite now.


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## bandaidwoman (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by LazyByNature *_
> The key phrase is "in the past".   The western cultures and Christianity have evolved where as the majority of Middle Eastern countries, dominated by Islam, have not.
> 
> I initially responded to your contention that Muslims/Islam weren't unevolved because they did things thousands of years ago.
> ...




You are right in that we need to condemn the governments some of whom use the religion to achieve an ends to their means or allow it by their complacence... but not the people.  However, many still take pride in their Middle eastern, arabic heritage.  The ones I know  hold dual citizenships since they ultimately want to return home.


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## tomas101 (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by JLB001 *_
> 
> Craig did watch that video, coming from him it was very harsh and brutal.  He can pretty much stomach anything, but this really turned his in a big way.  I was going to watch, had it qued up on the pc...but then decided it wasn't worth it to see such a person die in such a harsh way and that I certainly would not want it broadcast for everyone to see if it every happened to me.  My watching it would have been a BIG disrepect to his family who is already having to deal with the harshness, the brutallity, and death of a family member they so dearly loved.  Our media can be relentless in its pursuit to cover stories that draw us in, but I think in this case they need to let the family mourn and deal with this in private.  Just my 2 cents....I'll go back to being quite now.


ya the video is very harsh....sick pple out there, that can just slice an innocents man's throat and then cut his head off, while everyone is cheering in the back ground...but we shouldnt have even been there in the first place


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## OceanDude (May 13, 2004)

BAW, a link to that propaganda would have been sufficient. No doubt a few very specific *individuals* in a very few tribes or families made some early contributions to the arts and sciences. But their nomadic history dissuades me from accept this as prima facie evidence that this was produced by a civilized society or people at large. So, not withstanding the romanticization of a violent history by the studies??? sponsors one has to ponder why they as a people seem to have embraced barbarism and conflict as a preferred expressive art form of hatred and intolerance? I would not jump to blame religion in the aggregate. I think it has more to do with the institutionalization of criminal and anti-freedom philosophy into their societal fabric under the veneer of religion. Like the thug gangs in the inner cities of the west, at its core its really all about turf, repression, domination and control.  Religion, is just the mechanism used and funded by the thugs. So be careful about tossing the holy hand grenade of religion in this arena since it is prone to charges of bigotry as worse as the charge of racism. That argument pathway assumes the majority subscribe to a secular standard that has as it???s only ???grievous sin??? the subscription to the notion of a universal good and bad. So when you get to the core philosophy from that pathway we really see that secularism is really just a undeveloped and minor form of religion unto itself (without the spiritual dimension). To make a rebuttal to what you posted I can just as easily make a laundry list as large or larger to show all the contributions of non-denominationally specific ???religions???. 

But back to the topic at hand. In my ledger, the old Arab contributions to humanity in the arts and science still equate to *sifr* since the *algebra* always turns to mush if their aggregate ???contribution??? to humanity succeeds in setting the entire planet on fire and reducing us all to anarchy.

So what have they done for humanity lately ??? say in the last 500 years?


-OD


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## Dale Mabry (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> 
> So what have they done for humanity lately ??? say in the last 500 years?
> 
> ...




Being someone who has lived with a few as roommates, I can say for a fact that they have done nothing in the science of personal hygiene, especially in terms of eliminating body odor.


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## Dale Mabry (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> You are right in that we need to condemn the governments some of whom use the religion to achieve an ends to their means or allow it by their complacence... but not the people.  However, many still take pride in their Middle eastern, arabic heritage.  The ones I know  hold dual citizenships since they ultimately want to return home.




Are you talking about our current government or theirs?  It seems to me there is a current trend in our government toward religion.


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## bandaidwoman (May 13, 2004)

I am no historian but the issue is why has there has been a growing radicalization in Islam since the early 1800s, perhaps in response to the spread of Western colonialism and the demise of Muslim political supremacy?

I think Islam was a highly evolved religion compared to Christianity's barbaric past until the recent radicalization that caused it to regress or de-evolve while Christianity continued to transform itself . Christian anti-Semitism has a long and terrible history, as does Christian aggression against Islam during the Crusades and against fellow Christians during the Wars of Religion. 

But after each outpouring of violence, the church has been forced to ask itself: Is this what Christianity is about? In time the answers came, and except for small, radical fringes,* Christianity as a whole has repudiated war, coercion, and hate as ways to further the Christian message.*

*I think we are at a point, not of the clash between the West and Islam, it is, instead, the clash between Muslims as they try to define their faith for the 21st century.*

 Much the same way the Christians did with their many wars amongst each other. 

Islam clearly does not speak with one voice. It shows nearly as much diversity as does Christianity. This is where this religion stands and it is at a crucial crossroads at which we can hopefully play a part. 

Is Islam fundamentally opposed to human rights by its inherently theocratic thrust? Why do Muslim countries have such deplorable records on human rights? .

Human beings are being traded as slaves in Sudan. Has the government in Khartoum been flooded with protests from every corner of the Muslim world?. 

No one can deny the lack of women's rights under Islam. The widespread practice of female genital mutilation in Muslim countries alone signals the reality of women's oppression. Women are forbidden even to drive a car in Saudi Arabia. But niether was America interested in the plight of the horrific oppression, enslavement and killing of the women under the Taliban until Sept 11th. (Yet, Mohammad's second in command I believe was a woman.) My most radical feminist friends are Muslim who see the Q'uran as more liberating than the Bible but they hemmoraged out of the Middle East and there are none back home to take up their interpretation and reading of the Q'uran to advance the cause of women. 


Thus, We hear so many differing accounts of Islam today, is it peaceful or not? precisely because Muslims are in the midst of a struggle for the soul of Islam. 

Thus what must we do  to help the moderate movement win over the radical movement? i don't know, except our current leader seems to be injecting his own form of fundamentalism behind his policy making.  I don't know.  

Once again, Arab culture is not unified as it was years ago so to say they haven't contributed anything is erroneous.  Many Arab individuals do so, but cannot thrive in their political environment.  Scientists, especially in the medical field, contribute daily, but, are not recognized but within the inner circle of scientists.


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## Mudge (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by LazyByNature *_
> Part of the reason that they feel humiliation so bad is that they were supposedly so advanced 1,000 years ago and since then they haven't done anything and have fallen behind the rest of the world.



One show I saw said that is exactly why there are such problems today, most of them live in poverty and have no self esteem, it all sounds plausible to me.


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## Dale Mabry (May 13, 2004)

They are a backwards living civilization, what do you expect.


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## Mudge (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> I think Islam was a highly evolved religion compared to Christianity's barbaric past until the recent radicalization that caused it to regress or de-evolve while Christianity continued to transform itself . Christian anti-Semitism has a long and terrible history, as does Christian aggression against Islam during the Crusades and against fellow Christians during the Wars of Religion.



The Crusades were in retaliation for being attacked by the Muslims. There are hypocrites on both sides, to say that Muslims have clean hands is simply, bullshit. The Mustlims were not exactly on a good-will tour of the countries they conquered 

What is the problem with religion? What is the problem with government? People.

http://www.worldhistory.com/crusades.htm


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## HoldDaMayo (May 13, 2004)

BAW... I'm impressed you are so patient with the huge amount of ignorance and misguided hatred being thrown around in this thread...


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## Mudge (May 13, 2004)

If you read her threads, you should have figured that out long ago Mayo.


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## Dale Mabry (May 13, 2004)

Well, I will sum this all up in this post.  The muslims are living in the past which is their main problem.  Case in point the terms they use.

Muslims still use the term infidel, that is sooooooo 1980's.  The last time I heard the term "infidel" outside of quotes from the muslim world was in the movie Iron Eagle.  This movie sucked so much ass.  Back when this movie was filmed we were still using model airplanes to simulate dogfights, which was so weak.  Now, while we have progressed to computer modeling of dogfights, they still have not updated their jargon from the 80's while we have moved from the days of saying rad and tubular to the more up to date sweet and kick ass.  Case closed!


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## Mudge (May 13, 2004)

Do you think they also secretly wear neon colored clothing outside of public view? Do you think they are hiding mass stores of Pepsi Clear?


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## supertech (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> Well, I will sum this all up in this post.  The muslims are living in the past which is their main problem.  Case in point the terms they use.
> 
> Muslims still use the term infidel, that is sooooooo 1980's.  The last time I heard the term "infidel" outside of quotes from the muslim world was in the movie Iron Eagle.  This movie sucked so much ass.  Back when this movie was filmed we were still using model airplanes to simulate dogfights, which was so weak.  Now, while we have progressed to computer modeling of dogfights, they still have not updated their jargon from the 80's while we have moved from the days of saying rad and tubular to the more up to date sweet and kick ass.  Case closed!


I thought iron eagle was a cool movie


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## Dale Mabry (May 13, 2004)

It was good in the context of the 1980's, but so weak in comparison to what we have now.  Look at Animal House, now that movie transcends generations.


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## OceanDude (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> I am no historian but the issue is why has there has been a growing radicalization in Islam since the early 1800s, perhaps in response to the spread of Western colonialism and the demise of Muslim political supremacy?
> 
> I think Islam was a highly evolved religion compared to Christianity's barbaric past until the recent radicalization that caused it to regress or de-evolve while Christianity continued to transform itself . Christian anti-Semitism has a long and terrible history, as does Christian aggression against Islam during the Crusades and against fellow Christians during the Wars of Religion.



BAW, I have a much different opinion about your personal take on history. The Crusades were a direct response to the invading Islamic hordes raping and pillaging Europe in an attempt to dominate and spread their culture. If the Crusaders did not go on the offensive the initial attacking waves would have taken out everything that defines our current culture. Had they not been pushed back we likely would not be born or be the same ethnicity we are today and would be bowing 3 times daily to Mecca and praising one mullah or another. Not to mention having to go to war against competing mullahs every time some rival offended his interpretation of doctrine.

Why must we always consider that their inhuman behavior is possibly somehow our fault? Sorry, I refuse to go down that path. There is no western colonialism taking place over there - at least not by America. The British did some things (aren???t you originally from a country in British Common Wealth?) but please don???t try to subscribe that to an artificial grouping called ???the west???. I know of no ruling body representing ???The West???. It???s not a real place with boarders. The Arabs were slaughtering their own people long before Americans arrived in numbers on the scene to initiate trade with them. 

I also just don't think it's a worthwhile thing to try and understand why someone is slaughtering and killing innocents because no matter what the reason is it can not be acceptable. To go down that path at all is silly since it suggests that they are not responsible for their own atrocities. This is typical liberal thinking since it tries to place the blame on everyone but the people doing the unacceptable behavior. There is no need or time for the scientific method or self flagellation here. This avenue of thought presumes that someone has the power and authority to diagnose and then externally intervene to change their societal course as if they were a doctor. This sounds arrogant and assumptive to me since no one appointed anyone to the role of social scientist or will likely willingly grant the authority to socially reengineer that nation. To me, this assumption is worse than the colonialism you find so abhorrent. If we want to play social doctor, let???s use the medical analogy. What is going on in the Arab world is more like a contagious disease that must be isolated to save the rest of the planet from chaos. They have taken precisely the same view from the perspective of the disease and want to kill the doctors first. Can???t blame them ??? all species including the scum in the sewers want to survive. In a manner of speaking they have elected to use a dull rusty knife to express their hate in the most violent way possible to invoke fear. We should be merciful instead and use a sharp scalpel to perform what triage we can and be swift and merciful with those that will not desist.

I find the other part you mentioned about the evolution of religion ???interesting??? but irrelevant to the task of survival.

-OD


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## Dale Mabry (May 13, 2004)

From a game theory standpoint it is both sides' fault for playing the game...


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## LazyByNature (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> Thus what must we do  to help the moderate movement win over the radical movement? i don't know, except our current leader seems to be injecting his own form of fundamentalism behind his policy making.  I don't know.



Why do you include an attack on Bush in almost every post?

Yes, Bush II speaks about his faith and beliefs.  Name me 1 law that has been passed by the house and senate and then signed by Bush that establishes the Christian in the US.  Or takes aways someones rights because it violates the Christian principles.   

You can mention banning the creation of new stem cell lines but many non-religious people (myself included) see the slippery slope of cloning and having babies for the sole purpose of organ farming down the line.   If you can get pregant, have an abortion and then harvest stem cells, why not get pregant have a (late term) abortion and harvest the heart, eyes, liver, ... for transplants.  An aborted fetus is an aborted fetus.  If you can harvest stem cells why not harvest organs?


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## ZECH (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> Do not condemn the people, condemn the government of these countries who use religion to keep a majority in the dark ages.


If the majority of the people did not feel the same way, this could not prevail. While I agree that not all muslims are this way, I think the majority does feel this way.


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## bandaidwoman (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> If the majority of the people did not feel the same way, this could not prevail. While I agree that not all muslims are this way, I think the majority does feel this way.




But we don't know that. Many cannot express their dissedant thoughts due to the lack of free speech.  Their countries execute those who pubicly show support or threaten great harm .    Those that do, are the ones who found a way out and came here.  Many are working in the scientific research arena and so I am lucky to work alongside many of them.  One Iranian, Dr. kajavi, another cardiologist here has expressed how his family and freinds are very pro American.  They may not agree with our government policies but overall have no genuine hatred for us any more than they do anyone else.  Unfortunately, they are not the vocal ones who grab the headlines.  Their radical peers grab the spotlight with such acts of depravity the ones such as Dr. Kajavi,  become overshadowed.

As for arguing about Bush being influenced by his christian agenda (I believe he wants an constitutional  amendment allowing only marriage to be between a man and a woman ....kind of reeks of christian/islamic influences to those who don't subscribe to these religions.)  *That is another thread topic. * 
The same can be said for stem cell research. So I will leave those alone.   Personally, I don't believe in artifical reproduction of any type and abhor fetal cell research ( since they use the wasted fetus from these procedures.) but, I won't telll another scientist  or a couple desperate to concieve that they can't.


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## bandaidwoman (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> The Crusades were a direct response to the invading Islamic hordes raping and pillaging Europe in an attempt to dominate and spread their culture. If the Crusaders did not go on the offensive the initial attacking waves would have taken out everything that defines our current culture. Had they not been pushed back we likely would not be born or be the same ethnicity we are today and would be bowing 3 times daily to Mecca and praising one mullah or another. Not to mention having to go to war against competing mullahs every time some rival offended his interpretation of doctrine.
> 
> -OD



Once again I am no historian, and there is no doubt the Islamic civilization had their war of conquests against Europe.    

But what made the Crusades different was that the West wanted to free the Holy Lands from Islamic influence and the * initiative was taken by popes and supported by religious enthusiasm *.
The Crusades were not a defensive manuever, as you stated,  but an offensive one , where they not only  killed  their old invading muslim enemies ,they  marched  through the Rhine Valley slaughtering  Jews who refused to convert to Christianity and left a similar wake of destruction in Eastern Orthodox and Muslim centers along the way to their goal of liberating the region where Jesus lived from non-Christian rulers


 The West became more fully acquainted with the ideas and technology of a civilization far more advanced than their own. The Crusades also highlight the initial phase of western expansion into new lands, a movement of the peoples of Europe that has influenced the course of western civilization ever since. This is the unintended consequence and benefit of these Crusades.

I see the  Crusades as a representation of how the West visited these lands with a sword and a spirit of vengeance * in a manner contrary to teachings and character of Jesus.*  In much the same way those who use Jihad to advance  their political goals. 


.That is my interpretation, as such, it is only an interpretation, but then, so is so much of history...no?


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## PreMier (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Do you think they also secretly wear neon colored clothing outside of public view? Do you think they are hiding mass stores of Pepsi Clear?




Its Crystal Pepsi   And what the hell happened to it?


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## Mudge (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by PreMier *_
> Its Crystal Pepsi   And what the hell happened to it?



I thought it was ok, but you know how fads are, they come and go. Everything was clear back then, even dish soap, I think that survived.


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## Witmaster (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Do you think they also secretly wear neon colored clothing outside of public view? Do you think they are hiding mass stores of Pepsi Clear?



Actually, one thing that surprised me was to see some of the fashions that have emerged here in (former) Taliban country.  The women will (in certain areas of downtown kabul) lift up thier Burkas and wear them like a cloak. Underneath they are wearing brightly colored dresses and even business attire.  Then when they leave these certain sectors of downtown they pull the burka back down and resume their traditional "muslim" dress.


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## DrChiro (May 13, 2004)

This whole situation makes me sick...it is nieve to think that this sort of thing does not go on everyday in many countries...but to actually see it...damn.

After hearing about the video I was angry and had a "kill em all, let God sort em out " attitude...i actually saw the WHOLE video last night and i couldnt sleep...it made me sick to think people could treat other humans like that...especially defensless ones. 

They want us to hate all muslims, they want us to wage war, they are just provoking us to do things that we wouldnt normally do so that they can reinforce their message that we are the evil americans...we cant let them win like that...we already started down the wrong path...was a WAR the right method for destroying terrorism? 

I would think more covert measures, strategic assasinations, freezing assets, intelligence, etc...would have been a more effective approach...but we saw 9/11 and we wanted blood for blood....myself included.

Those fuckers on the tape deserve to die...very slowly...no doubt...but we must remember they are isolated cases, not indicative of all muslims.

A good way to think of them is like the KKK....if they were to commit a hate crime it would be all over the news along with all the sick shit they have done in the past and statistics on how many of them are still around and it would give the impression that all white people are evil biggots. 

All major religions teach peace and brotherhood...all muslims are not like those in the tape.

now all i have to do is keep reading this post till i believe what i just said....fuckers.


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## Witmaster (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by DrChiro *_
> ...was a WAR the right method for destroying terrorism?



you're DAMN right it was.


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## maniclion (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by DrChiro *_
> I would think more covert measures, strategic assasinations, freezing assets, intelligence, etc...would have been a more effective approach...



I agree, but we have to do the old rope-a-dope watch this hand while I swing at you with this one.  The hard part is luring them out of hiding which I think these prisoner photos and stories might do as the hate builds inside of them driving them to make mistakes.  We hope.


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## JerseyDevil (May 13, 2004)

The amazing thing is they want us to be sympathic to their cause.  They don't understand that this action just breeds more hatred towards the muslim world. Maybe they think this beheading will scare away Americans, but in truth most Americans after viewing this barbaric action will want to hunt these savages down. 

What upsets me to no end is the fact  these 'revolutionaries' are so brave, why do they have to hide their faces as they murder an innocent victim? 

Before this happened, and I viewed some of the prisoner photo's at Abu Ghraid, I was sickened by the way our troops treated these detainees. After what happened to Nick Berg, I say so the fuck what! Of course that is the wrong attitude, but after viewing the entire, uncensored video I just want to destroy these people.

The average Muslim is a peace loving person, and NO ONE should  EVER be persecuted for their religious beliefs.   But these extremists are making that more, and more difficult.


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## Little Wing (May 13, 2004)

If a war is worth action send a fucking bomb n not my son. Just Do It.


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## Little Wing (May 13, 2004)

The soldiers that abused those prisoners made America look too Jerry Springer for my taste. I understand the desire for revenge n all the stress they all must feel but show some class n represent.
Now it's a big pissing contest n unfortunately the revenge gets taken out on the wrong person or persons. Maybe if the sick sneering dyke bitch on those tapes thought SHE would suffer the enivatable wrath n not someone else she'd have acted accordingly....


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## Witmaster (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by rockgazer69 *_
> If a war is worth action send a fucking bomb n not my son. Just Do It.



I believe they tried that.  Sent several bombs into both Iraq and Afghanistan and yet, 911 still occured.  Now by sending a "Bomb" are you refering to a NUKE?

Now I certainly understand any reservations one may have about sending thier children into combat.  I know I certanly would.  But, consider this...

The U.S. Military today is comprised 100% of VOLUNTEER members who knowingly understand and embrace the risks of being in the Armed services.  Yes, we are sent to war.  Yes, there is danger involved.  That's part of it.  No member of the Armed Forces can say, "hey I didn't know there was gonna be danger involved..."  If they do, they are lying.

Nobody WANTS war.  it sucks.  But something I find even more disturbing is hearing people who don't feel thier freedom from terrorism is worth going to war over?!?  Listen, I'm here neck-deep in it and I can say with all certainty that it sucks but, I certainly feel better knowing that we are HERE keeping these bastards on the ropes rather than leaving them free to continue sending thier "contact teams"to other countries abroad to inflict more terrorism.  I would much rather they try shooting at me here than blowing my Wife up at the grocery store.

One of the things that seperates us apart from other nations is the fact that we do not indiscriminatly bomb nations into submission.  Sure, we could do that easily but to what end would that serve?  Do you really think that terrorist cells will simply lay down thier weapons and bombs simply because we bombed them?  I wish it were that simple but unfortunately these murderous animals are a bit more resilient than that.


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## Little Wing (May 13, 2004)

Nuke. n then gee what terrorist cells would that be?


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## PreMier (May 13, 2004)

You obviously dont know the reprocussions of setting of a nuclear bomb.  Especially the ones available today.


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## Var (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by rockgazer69 *_
> Nuke. n then gee what terrorist cells would that be?



Thats just silly.  Do u think the terrorists are just in Afghanistan and Iraq?  What about the ones in Spain, France, USA???  Your plan would kill a shit load of innocent people and still wouldnt wipe out terrorism.  Not to mention the fact that we're left looking like war-mongers.


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## Little Wing (May 13, 2004)

I hear what you're sayin but too I'm a mother and I wonder if we care so much about  the innocent why are _any_ children in the world allowed to suffer? we have the resources n power to assist but what we do do is limited by what? Are we afraid to destroy the innocent or the resources there? money makes war go round n very often the simple difference between right n wrong is an afterthought. Notice the gas prices lately? I say don't hide the fact we want to be sure no other attack is made on American soil n innocents be damned. Don't pretend to give a fuck to save face.


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## Little Wing (May 13, 2004)

n I do know but if countries thought it'd be a real consequence the little cells of terrorists wouldn't be allowed to fester n it'd be a lot harder for them to find recruits.


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## Var (May 13, 2004)

Posting pics of your children isnt going to miraculously change my views.  I have family, too!  The fact is, your approach would put our families in more danger than you're aware.  Also, you made a comment about gas prices.  What about them?  I havent saved any $ on gas since the war.  If the war were about oil, the prices would be dropping.  We basically own those countries right now.


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## PreMier (May 13, 2004)

The fact is if we set a nuke off in that region, it would effect the WHOLE planet.  Nukes are very dangerous.  Not to just the area of deployment, but the whole planet.


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## Var (May 13, 2004)

Good point


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## Little Wing (May 13, 2004)

I know that n if we wait long enough n play nice long enough someone will eventually drop one right in our lap.


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## Var (May 13, 2004)

Which is why the world needs to keep nations like N. Korea in check.  Being the first to drop a bomb is not the best solution to the problem


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## Witmaster (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by rockgazer69 *_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not pretending nor could I give a rats ass about "saving facie".  I make no apologies for my involvement here inAfghanistan.  In fact, I'm proud to say I am here.

Strange, you made the comment earlier about sending your son off to War.  Uh.... he's a bit young I think.

Next, you pull the "I'm a mother" card out of your deck to somehow validate your protest and yet you claim to want to NUKE countries!?!  Hey, guess what?  Believe it or not there are CHILDREN here in these countries too!  And you know what else?  Some ofthem even have MOTHERS!

For the record, we do a ton of routine missions to orphanages here in the region.  we deliver food, medicine, and school supplies as well as offer armed security to defend them from terrorist jackasses who might want to bomb them.


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## Var (May 13, 2004)

Thanks for what you're doing over there, Witmaster!


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## Little Wing (May 13, 2004)

Power is sexy but this coy game is getting our soldiers killed. Politics is the ultimate diversion game who really believes gas prices aren't coming down if we're over there long enough. If I had a neighbor set on hurting me freedom isn't living in fear ... It's destroying it.


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## Var (May 13, 2004)

Are we still talking about the same war???  You're referring to the US involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan, right?  Almost sounds like you dont know what you're talking about at all.

So when exactly do gas prices come down?  What will more time over there do to hurry along the process?  We already "have the oil"...so to speak.  I think the "this war is all about oil" bullshit has been disproven by now.


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## Witmaster (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Var *_
> Thanks for what you're doing over there, Witmaster!



It's a pleasure and an honor.  But seriously, thank YOU for your support.


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## Little Wing (May 13, 2004)

My children will tell you that disrespecting a soldier or vetaren will get them in major trouble with me and that they are well taught who the true heroes in this country are. Love the pop stars but keep it in perspective...I just wonder.. if our soldiers are really so happy n proud to be over there why are they torturing those prisoners? Not all are I know but I have friends who served in Vietnam who hate our goverment still for it. N a few feeling like walking garbage for how they are treated by our government after the fact when their medical and psychiatric needs are far from adequately met... Love the soldiers they are heart and soul but the politics behind them is insane.


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## Little Wing (May 13, 2004)

If Bush had to pick up a gun n be the 1st in the line of fire how differently would this have gone? What other solutions do you think he'd have come up with? My son will have the right to choose to be a soldier n my daughter already talks about it and I would be proud but I think too how it'd be to hear they'd had their head hacked off. I'd rather see every man woman and child there dead than lose my own and that is naked and ugly but it's the truth.


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## Witmaster (May 13, 2004)

Good to know your children are taught to respect servicemen and Women.

I would caution you to not sterotype all soldiers with the isolated cases you saw involving the abuse of Iraqi POWs.  That was an isolated case involving a handful of people who will go to prison for it.  You also (in the same breath) invoke your "friends from Vietnam" who "hate the government" as if there is some sort of connection between the two?!?

Comparing the War today with the war in Vietnam is absurd.  Aparently you may have forgotten the original Gulf Warwas never declared over.  It was a sieze fire agreement conditional upon the Iraq complying with 14 UN mandates.  Iraq failed to meet even ONE requirement.  Next, there was this momentous event we refer to as 911 (not to mention the half dozen terrorist attacks against U.S. embasys and military personnel between these two events).

Now, the treatment of Vietnam Veterans (past and present) is deplorable but it is improving.  frankly, I fail to see how that subject has any relevant  bearing on this subject except that perhaps you thought it might explain why U.S. troops are abusing Iraqi POWs.  Again, I don't see the connection but then, I'm not opposed to the politics behind the War either.


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## Little Wing (May 13, 2004)

If i understood all the complexities I'm sure my opinions would be changed by the knowledge I have more emotion than true understanding of the situation. I wonder if all the soldiers that are there truly understand why they are.. I sure as hell don't n won't pretend to . And I do wonder if the ones acting badly are angry n confused about their being there. Money, travel, college are somrtimes more of an incentive to enlist than a true desire to serve in the fullest sense. I feel like a coward n im sure i am that I'd rather level a threat , end it, then do what you are in seeking a solution but my base instinct to survive n to protect my own says well bring our troops home so noone else has their American head chopped off.


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## Little Wing (May 13, 2004)

I also do not agree that the VA hospitals are improving- my friend gets more n more dedressed all the time as more services are budget cut from existance...I'm afraid you'll face the same some day n it just isn't fair.


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## OceanDude (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> Once again I am no historian, and there is no doubt the Islamic civilization had their war of conquests against Europe.
> 
> But what made the Crusades different was that the West wanted to free the Holy Lands from Islamic influence and the * initiative was taken by popes and supported by religious enthusiasm *.
> ...



Band Aid I was going to go into a long analysis of the history of the region but it is not my specialty and many books have already been written by more scholarly people than I and everyone still draws different conclusions. So I won???t bother. But a relevant fact to consider is that Christianity pre-dates Islam and that belief system was well established in Jerusalem about 600 years before Mohammad invented his Arab answer to the growing threat of Zionism and Christianity. Make no mistake about it. There were no ???Muslims??? on the planet at the time the Christians initially occupied and made pilgrimages to Jerusalem under the Romans. From my perspective, the world was very hostile and warlike during this period and there was no pretense of any concept of peaceful coexistence among the peoples. Basically the law of the day was to conquer, hold territory and subject the populace to taxation and servitude (and rape the woman to make new soldiers). We are also perhaps making a judging from a point in time where we have ideals that were completely alien to most peoples of that day. If we use the standard of who was there first and who was living there then clearly the Christians (who were mostly Jewish converts) had the right to be there and live in peace ??? long before the Arabs *invaded*. . Christians were not the aggressors the Persians and the Arabs were. The European armies and crusaders attempted to come to their aid since there was the commonality in religious belief and due to the fact that the popes (they use to have more than 1 in those days ??? a different history itself) felt they had the responsibility to protect the pilgrims and Christians from being butchered mercilessly. 

I do not agree with your assessment that what the popes did was somehow wrong or was an offensive maneuver. It was a defensive act and was to be a rescue mission. Frankly if anything is to be blamed they stood by idle for hundreds of years and did not act soon enough to protect innocent life. I suppose it took them a long time to intervene because there was major political turmoil in Europe and little chance for successful intervention with a cohesive force. I know nothing of the history of the Rhine Valley so I can???t comment too much in this area. But whatever did happen I suspect was less about religion and more about who the armies suspected as being profiteers of the conflict. It was a fairly common thing for certain peoples to supply both sides of the conflict to make money and prosper on the living hell that the rest of the continent was suffering. I don???t know if this was the case or not but I would not condemn an army for destroying agents that were actively working counter to their cause (if it was a just cause). I also do not agree that the Arab society was far more advanced than the ???European??? society but it is not relevant anyway. I do recall one area of technical supremacy however. The Arabs did perfect the annealing process for making high strength sword steel. The trick was to heat up steel, shape it on an anvil and then thrust it into the warm belly of a live Christian to have it extract the nitrogen from living tissue and suddenly cool and fortify the steel. Yeah, by that standard they were ???advanced??? but they were complete barbarians, thugs and brigands looking to make individual profits when they raped Jerusalem and cut the throats of the Christians.
-OD

PS:
Here is just a short intro on some of the events leading up to the first crusades if anyone wants to read: 

Jerusalem was occupied by the Jewish people and Christian converts in 33-135 AD. I won???t go into history before this period of time. The Jews have the best record of that prior time period.

The Roman Emperor Hadrian constructed a grandiose pagan temple over the sites of Golgotha and the garden tomb of Jesus in 135-326 AD to assert Roman social dominance. 

Jerusalem later became an early and most important liturgical center during Constantinian and Byzantine Period (326-638 AD) when Roman emperor
Constantine recognized the Universal Church and converted to Christianity.

In 614 AD the Persians (Iran) devastated and burned the Christian Holy Sites ??? I won???t go into motive but it was unprovoked.

In 629 the Emperor Heraclius defeated the Persians. In 634 AD the Moslem-Arabs began their incursion into the area and they occupied Palestine (note that this is 600 years after Christ). So now the Arabs think they have a legitimate claim on the area through spoils of war and conquest ??? which was the popular tradition of the time.

Then we transition into the Arab Period of the Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids (638-1071). In 638 Jerusalem itself is assaulted and captured by Omar, Caliph of the Arab Moslems.  Note ??? The Christians did not invite them to kill them.

Christian holy places were defiled from fires started by Arab Moslems (938, 966), and from the partial occupation of the atrium of the Constantinian Basilica, and from the destruction of all the sacred edifices and of the Rock of the Holy Sepulchre (ordered by the Fatimid Sultan Hakim in 1009), and from other profanations, killings, and persecutions. This was a direct attack by Moslems on the most holy of Christian areas. This is fanatic anti-Christian hatred of a non militarized citizenry.

Next comes the First Seljuk Turk Period (1071-1098)
The Seljuk Turks of Persia conquered Mesopotamia, Asia Minor, Syria and Palestine. They occupied the Sacred Sites and were the first to impose an entrance tax on pilgrims who desired to visit these sites. According to Moslem legislation any places of cult were the property of the government and the government maintained the right to grant their use. If the site was ruined, it could be sold or given as a present. Essentially the Arabs saw Christianity as a business opportunity so they tolerated the pilgrims but taxed them and made them pay homage.

The Emperors of Constantinople were not able to resign themselves to the reality that they had lost both the territory of the Byzantine Empire and the Holy Places in Palestine. On the other hand, the European governments tolerated the fact that the loss of the Holy Places was an irrevocable reality. Palestinian territory and its Sanctuaries belonged to the victorious government ??? this was the pragmatic law in those days. Kill and take what you want if you can. 
Next comes The Brief Egyptian-Arab Period (1098-1099). For a brief time the Egyptian-Arabs occupied the Holy Land. They did not respect the freedom given to the Sanctuaries by the Caliph Omar and succeeding Sultans, a freedom which was respected until the arrival of the Turks (1071). Moreover, in imitation of the Turks, they took possession of the Holy places and reinstituted the pilgrim tax. Again the Christians are basically milked like cows for tax.
Then comes the First Crusader Period (1099-1187). This is basically a response to the hundreds of years of aggression by the Persians and Arabs on Christians and the lands that rightfully belonged to the Roman Empire. At this point in time the the Crusaders took possession of Jerusalem and the Holy Land they also took possession of the Holy Places, in accord with the rights of conquerors. Some of the sites were restored or enlarged. Others were reconstructed.

Next comes the Second Egyptian-Arab Period: the Ayyubids (1187-1229)
In 1187 Saladin captured all the Holy Land from the Crusaders and took the Sanctuaries as his own possession. In the period immediately following his conquest they were closed to Christian cult. Only those pilgrims who paid the tax were permitted to enter. Peace was signed by Saladin and Richard the Lionhearted, King of England (September 1192).

It goes on and on from this point forward:

the Second Crusader Period (1229-1239).
Transjordan-Arab Period (1239-1241)
Third Crusader Period (1241-1244)
The Third Egyptian-Arab Period (1244-1291):
The Reign of the Mameluke Sultans (1250-1517)
Etc. etc.


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## Little Wing (May 13, 2004)

Barbarians did somebody say Barbarians?


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## tomas101 (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by PreMier *_
> The fact is if we set a nuke off in that region, it would effect the WHOLE planet.  Nukes are very dangerous.  Not to just the area of deployment, but the whole planet.


 no the fact is there are too many ignorant pple on this site that say "nuke em all", u all must live in the middle of the usa and be sheltered to shit..but back on topic, if u nuke, u kill innocent lives and start more wars and receive more terrorists attacks...u cant nuke a region and not kill innocent people....pple that say nuke em all are fuking idiots and need to look outside the box and stop thinking of only us, but everyone


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## kbm8795 (May 13, 2004)

One of the things that separated the early United States from the religious and political squabbles of the rest of the world was our intent to create a society in which religious beliefs were both protected in private practice and denied official political power. It was a truly radical belief at the time. Both our federal Constitution and most state constitutions make those points very clear. 

It was also quite clear when the United States had it's first conflict with the Barbary Pirates. A treaty of peace was signed and ratified by the U.S. Senate and signed by President John Adams in 1797. In Article 11 of that treaty ending a war with Muslim pirates, it says: "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered upon any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

While fundamentalist, radical Islamics also sneer at us for NOT representing one religion, it isn't in our best interests for either the President or those radical Muslim elements to try to link us with any kind of religious conversion goals. It just becomes another way for insurgents to feed the fire. As a nation, we are not in Iraq to promote "christian" beliefs. But now that we are occupying the country, we have our hands full with reconstruction, getting a new government going, and financing the establishment and protection of the Iraqi people. 

We didn't find weapons of mass destruction. Whether we ever do or not doesn't matter too much at this point. For all we know, if they existed, they were packed in a UHaul, driven into Syria, and they'll be taken somewhere else if we invade there. 

What we do have to deal with are 130,000 troops, proposals for 20,000 more; 20,000 civilian contractors that we either can't keep under supervision or can't be protected, and a growing list of complaints about inadequate supplies, training and equipment. 

When Rumsfeld spoke to the troops in Baghdad today, the questions of WHEN more and better body armor will arrive were brought up again. Seems to me our first priority at this point should be producing and shipping this stuff to help protect our troops. This was the fourth report I've read about this kind of complaint, along with the need for better training. We seem to forget that we have a large number of Reservists and National Guard soldiers in Iraq - many of them never thought they would be deployed overseas. We need to be complaining about our soldiers receiving adequate supplies and training, especially if they need those things to do their job and come home safely.

There are also increasing numbers of soldiers who are, sometimes at the last minute, receiving extensions of deployment orders. This not only creates hardship on families, but can eventually hurt morale. And now, with the prison photos and the beheading of an American citizen, they have to handle another set of problems. 

Two of our local news stations reported today that when a local National Guard unit was assigned to escort contractors, some of the members were upset  - they are apparently used to driving heavy supply trucks, not following contractors around. Suddenly an already strained military force has to protect all the foreign civilian workers trying to help rebuild the infrastructure, handle a radical insurgency, and protect the establishment of Iraq's freedom. 

We aren't in Iraq any longer to protect OUR freedom - Saddam's regime was removed. Our job there now is to get the country on it's feet - its a commitment we made to both Iraq and the rest of the world. So in many respects, our military commitment for the next couple of years is more about rebuilding the country and establishing some kind of orderly peace. We won't get very far if they think we are promoting disrespect for their religion.


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## tomas101 (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by kbm8795 *_
> 
> We aren't in Iraq any longer to protect OUR freedom - Saddam's regime was removed. Our job there now is to get the country on it's feet - its a commitment we made to both Iraq and the rest of the world. So in many respects, our military commitment for the next couple of years is more about rebuilding the country and establishing some kind of orderly peace. We won't get very far if they think we are promoting disrespect for their religion.


but thats not the only reason we are there...iraq has the 2nd largest oil reserve...now that wasnt ours,  and now bush will milk it dry...we never should have been there, this is what we get for going into a country and invading it, and then changing why we are there in the first place...but i hear ya and i hope we do fix the place up, but they will never live under a demacracy(sp) and there will be a civil war this time nest yr


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## kbm8795 (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by LazyByNature *_
> 
> Yes, Bush II speaks about his faith and beliefs.  Name me 1 law that has been passed by the house and senate and then signed by Bush that establishes the Christian in the US.  Or takes aways someones rights because it violates the Christian principles.




Well, actually there is one bill pending in the U.S. House that will establish a National Hymn. Another bill would allow houses of worship to not only openly endorse political candidates, but actively contribute and campaign for them. When the President issued the annual proclamation for our National Day of Prayer, the group organizing the observances was led by evangelicals who excluded large numbers of other religious denominations in the program. In at least four states now, clergy who are invited to open state legislative sessions with a non-sectarian prayer have used the opportunity to promote a political platform. Most recently, in Colorado, a Catholic priest used the opportunity to declare the concept of separation of church and state as wrong and told legislators they should FIRST and FOREMOST decide public policy based on their religious doctrine. One well-known televangelist who attempted a presidential bid a few years ago openly said only christians and jews would hold positions in the government. 

President Bush's faith-based charity plan, which uses taxpayer monies to pay for welfare programs promoted by religious groups, has been criticized for favoring fundamentalist organizations and excluding other outreach programs of other denominations. They did fund Pat Robertson's "Operation Blessing," which a few years ago was accused of using a portion of it's operation to fly diamond mining equipment to develop one of Pat's investments in Africa.


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## OceanDude (May 13, 2004)

Can we get beyond the parochialism of thinking this is about oil. I am so sickened by this schoolboy conspiracy thing. It???s old and proven to be ridiculous ??? give it a rest.

-OD


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## Little Wing (May 13, 2004)

Yes our newly formed government promised religious freedom- as long as it was the right religion . If you clung to  Pagan beliefs and practices you were burned at the stake.


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## OceanDude (May 13, 2004)

KBM - I'd recommend spinning off a separate discussion on church and state. I don't agree with you that there is a clean line between church and state implied or required by our constitution. 

A people can not pragmatically deny their fundamental belief systems and pretend to exist in an artificial, vacuous and sterile state that suffers no religious influence. My God, think about the insanity of the concept for a moment. ???A government by the people for the people??? that artificially disallows all thoughts and actions that represent their own belief systems is profoundly neurotic. It is high time that politicians that profess to be members of certain religious classes be called on the carpet to answer to why their conduct in government life is not consistent with the stated norms of the groups that elected them to office. Clearly, some members of congress are using their religious affiliations as a ticket to public service and forget precisely who put them in office. To think that religious people should have no voice or influence in this country is absurd. The priest has the same right to vote and to representation as does the criminal, the drug addict, the welfare mom and the lying politicians. Interesting concept huh? 

-OD


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## Little Wing (May 13, 2004)

my daughter is 12 she amazes me she said they did find weapons of mass destruction....ignorance and hate


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## kbm8795 (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by rockgazer69 *_
> Yes our newly formed government promised religious freedom- as long as it was the right religion . If you clung to  Pagan beliefs and practices you were burned at the stake.



Ah yes - I forgot about the "savages" that populated this continent. But your comments about the "right religion" are well-noted - that serves as the core philosophy of our own extremist religious groups. And one reason why our President should be careful about providing religious fuel to an already extreme Islamic group.

Some of our state constitutions were careful to spell out a citizen's rights in relation to religious activity, even separating the words "religion" and "morality" in law as social influences so they would not be construed to mean the same thing or have a single dominating influence. Obviously, those who support theocracies never read beyond the "religion" part of the document.

One of our own rightious religious organizations has decided to blame the prison abuse in Iraq on our popular culture. In an e-mail to supporters this week, the Family Research Council president agreed with another religious right leader who, in remarks before a pastor's briefing, said that when you "mix young people who grew up on a steady diet of MTV and pornography with a prison environment, you get the abuse of Abu Ghraib." 

Now we can move on to asking why the government is having trouble filling body armor orders for our troops.


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## Big Smoothy (May 13, 2004)

As for Berg his death is terrible, BUT:

Anyone who is working in Iraq voluntarily needs to have their head examined.

He seemed to be very naive.


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## Big Smoothy (May 13, 2004)

PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - The father of Nick Berg, the American beheaded in Iraq (news - web sites), directly blamed President Bush (news - web sites) and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Thursday for his son's death. 

"My son died for the sins of George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld. This administration did this," Berg said in an interview with radio station KYW-AM. 

In the interview from outside his home in West Chester, Pennsylvania, a seething Michael Berg also said his 26-year-old son, a civilian contractor, probably would have felt positive, even about his executioners, until the last minute. 

"I am sure that he only saw the good in his captors until the last second of his life," Berg said. "They did not know what they were doing. They killed their best friend." 

Two days after the publication of a video showing the execution of his son by five masked men, Berg attacked the Bush administration for its invasion of Iraq and its sponsorship of the Patriot Act, which gives sweeping powers of surveillance to the federal government. 

Berg described the Patriot Act as a "coup d'etat." He added: "It's not the same America I grew up in." 

The criticism came amid finger-pointing between Berg's family, U.S. military officials and Iraqi police over the young businessman's imprisonment before his execution. 

Michael Berg rejected U.S. government claims that his son had never been held by American authorities in Iraq. The Iraqi police chief in the city of Mosul has also contradicted statements by the U.S.-led coalition concerning the younger Berg's detention.


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## bandaidwoman (May 14, 2004)

OD  firstly this is a very interesting topic you have started.

So, could the crusades have been justified?  That's essentially what it comes down to.  My whole contention is the Crusades represented the face of Christianity that is seen by the Arab world that they will never forget.  If it was done purely for political reasons or sovereignty protection or land acquisition , is one thing.  But to get back to the justification of the Crusades.  The one thing is clear, it can never justify its treatment of the jews.   

To address this argument we need to ask ourselves what was the actual reason behind the crusades . Also using such an argument such as the conquests of the followers of the Prophet Mohammed during the 7th and 8th centuries is not going to wash for me because we can easily say that about the Europeans and Christian conquests.

 Either way there were plans for expansion on both sides as you stated.    

 The lands that were Muslim in the 10th century and onwards were in the hands of Muslims, it???s as simple as that. 

Thus a vote of sympathy for the Crusades since the land was not originally Muslim  does not justify what they did to the Muslims. With that mentality we can say that about every country in the world that all current occupiers are in some way are invaders of their own established countries.

Anyway, what we need to do is focus on the crusades itself. 

If I had to pick the immediate catalyst it looks like it was the Seljuk Turks who  had taken control of Jerusalem. As a result Alexius, emperor of Byzantium, wanted help from the Christian west to rid him of this barbarian horde the Seljuk Turks and save the Christians of Jerusalem. He was scared because his army  was crushed by the Turks somtime in the past. Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that the Seljuk Turks (the main reason for the crusades) were ousted from Jerusalem by the Egyptians, thus,  the Christians that needed rescuing were no longer in need of rescue other than being taxed, the Egyptians were tolerant of that religion.  Therefore, there is no longer a justifiable reason to start the crusade to rescue people that did not need rescuing. 

So if there was no longer a reason for a rescue mission of the Christians in Jerusalem   why on earth did the Christian west continue with this expedition? As we both agree, it was a war of expansion. 

We need to then examine the motives of the person that orchestrated the crusades. The nice little gentleman that had started this monstrosity of a war was Pope Urban II. So having looked at the motives of the Pope Urban II, which he saw the crusades as a way to empower him and as there were no longer a need for a rescue mission, then the actions that would follow during the crusades was totally wrong to continue this mission and totally unjustifiable. 

 The Christians  were executed under the hands of the Muslims.   But those executions were  mostly towards soldiers.  I believe the  Christians and also Jews in Jerusalem  were allowed to continue being jews, under Islamic rule, but this comes from a Rabbi Shapiro here in a local temple.    
As for exacting tokens for not being muslim the main head honcho was Saladin who showed  great mercy towards the Christian armies, especially when they had conquered Jerusalem . There were times when Christian soldiers had refused the option of being a Muslim and were  asked to pay a ransom if they wished to be set free, he would go as far as to release those that could not afford to pay.. 

Which is far from the brutalities of the Christian armies? 

For example, during the first crusade and when the Christian armies had invaded Jerusalem, a Norman Knight called Tancred did one of the most un-noble things a knight could do. You see many Muslims had fled into the Al-Aqsa mosque. There they had surrendered, promising to give a huge ransom in exchange for their lives, by which they would accept Tancred???s banner as a symbol of his protection. Guess what happened? Yup, you guessed right. The following day the crusaders re-entered the Al-Aqsa mosque and slaughtered every Muslim man, women, and child. It did not care. The funny thing was that the mentality of the Christian west was that by slaughtering the Muslims you were actually doing penance. Funny isn???t it, the act of slaughter was deemed as a penitential act. 

Again there was another time of great barbarity of the Christian west. The Christians had invaded a place called Maarrat an-Numan. In this unfortunate city the inhabitant were eaten by the barbarian Christian west. Yes, that is cannibalism, for those that it did not sink in properly. They had put Muslim babies on spits burned them and then devoured them. (At least the only civilised thing they did was to eat them cooked rather then raw, for those that think slowly, I was being sarcastic) 

One other time of great brutalities was conducted by the great king Richard the lion heart himself. After having captured Acre, Richard was in a hurry to get to Jerusalem and had many Muslim prisoners. He of course did not want to get into a long drawn-out process of ransoming prisoners. He had somewhere in the region of three thousand Muslim prisoners. Saladin in this kind of predicament would have just simply have released them all. In fact Saladin was in a bit of a fiddle with his own people because his own people were getting pissed off with him for having released too many Christian soldiers previously and wanted to see him take some action against these thugs, which he stuck by his principles and refused to do what his people commanded him to, which probably explains why he lost control of his army on Jaffer. Anyway let???s get back to the great king Richard, so what did he do? He instead decided to butcher all the Muslim prisoners because it was too much of a bother to baby-sit them, after all Richard also thought he was doing the right thing because it was deemed as a penitential act.

* In all the battles fought between the Muslims and Christians, the Muslims only executed the Christian men-of-war. Whereas, the Christians executed everybody, man, women, child, Muslim, Eastern Christian, and Jews it did not matter because everything they did was an act of penance. *


It had taken two hundred years for the Muslims to create a man that would treat the Christians in the same way. He was a warrior slave by the name of Baybars, who slaughtered very Christian he could find. But remember his acts were barbaric, but this all took place in the last crusade, and were a result of enough was enough, someone had to do something about the crusaders. Baybars was the man!

I find history, like clinical medicine, offeres different conclusions using the same facts for different people.  We must never forget, despite arguments for justification of the crusade, that it will always be a war that represented the worst aspect of Christianity and its abuse in the same way we will always remember the Jihad by these extremists as the worst and warped use of Islam .  Both Crusades and Jihad (as defiend by these extremists) do not represent the true christianity or Islam.


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## ZECH (May 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by kbm8795 *_
> 
> 
> When Rumsfeld spoke to the troops in Baghdad today, the questions of WHEN more and better body armor will arrive were brought up again. Seems to me our first priority at this point should be producing and shipping this stuff to help protect our troops.


Well thanks to people like *JOHN KERRY* that may not happen. Why you ask. Because he voted against body armor for troops. Oh yeah, he also voted against F18 fighter jets, B2 bombers and patriot missles. Basically anything to defend us, he's against.


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## Witmaster (May 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Well thanks to people like *JOHN KERRY* that may not happen...



You know...  Those of us here stationed abroad are pretty much convinced that if John Kerry gets elected we will end up leaving our weapons on our bunks along with an apology note.


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## kbm8795 (May 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Well thanks to people like *JOHN KERRY* that may not happen. Why you ask. Because he voted against body armor for troops. Oh yeah, he also voted against F18 fighter jets, B2 bombers and patriot missles. Basically anything to defend us, he's against.




Yes, I've seen that Bush commercial. . .

If common gangbangers in New Orleans are able to order better body armor online than the local police department there, I think it shouldn't be a very difficult task for the Pentagon to get those vests to our troops. The issue isn't whether the military provides body armor - it does. It just doesn't have enough for the personnel already in Iraq, and it's likely they weren't issued to some reservists or National Guard troops in their local armories. Surely they could have found enough money in the $87 billion first budget for this war to provide those materials quickly.

One byproduct of the financial expense of this protracted war - we may end up scrapping up to 1/3 of our submarine fleet. Nothing like a little sacrifice in defending us in order to promote Iraq's freedom, is there?


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## ZECH (May 14, 2004)

There is also a shortage of gas masks. Why, I have no idea. You would think that and body armor would be tops on the list.


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## Rob_NC (May 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by rockgazer69 *_
> Yes our newly formed government promised religious freedom- as long as it was the right religion . If you clung to  Pagan beliefs and practices you were burned at the stake.




Santa Claus, our beloved Christian icon, actually has Pagan roots.


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## OceanDude (May 14, 2004)

^^ Actually Rob, Santa Claus and the elfs was a literary concept introduced by certain "other" religious groups to waterdown and trivialize the canonical legitimacy of Christmas as an emerging national movement and holiday. It was also a means to secularize and commercialize a Christian holy day to expand the market for merchants.

-OD


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## Rob_NC (May 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> It was also a means to secularize and commercialize a Christian holy day to expand the market for merchants.
> 
> -OD





Well,,, It certainly succeeded in doing that.  And it happens to be the one reason why I dislike that holiday.


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## Dale Mabry (May 14, 2004)

First off, who the fuck starts off a war without enough equipment?  I'm not going to ask 20 people to play a baseball game if I only have 5 gloves.  If a year into this war we just now decide we need more body armour, we OBVIOUSLY were not prepared.

Well, I have to tell you that a bunch of people will be surprised by what I am about to write.  As for Mr. Berg...I fail to see how their son's death is President Bush's or Secretary Rumsfeld's fault.  Sure, I believe they started a war without being fully prepared, but it's too late for that.  I would say that we have known for about 6 months that we were not prepared for this war.  Nick Berg entered this war as a willing participant.  Sure, he is no soldier, but did he actually think they were going to roll out the red carpet for him when he got there?  He saw all the violence, no doubt, he HAD to know that there was even the slightest possibility that this would happen, a newsman was killed a while ago so he knew civilians were not off-limits.  He went over there, rolled the dice and lost and it is a horrible tragedy, but it was his conscious choice.

And finally, another thing, I think we are waaaaaaaay over our heads in this one.  We entered a war with an irrational opponent who appears to be doing very well at dividing the nation and causing a few of us to behave irrationally (Prisoner abuse) as well.  Worry about November in November, but until then, support what is going on now and check your political ideologies at the doorstep.

Now if you will excuse me, I am going to go post about something I know more about...


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## Rob_NC (May 14, 2004)

Damn good post DM. Damn good.


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## OceanDude (May 14, 2004)

Dale, 
My biggest complain about equipment is the complete inadequacy of the Bradley???s. We have known for a decade (e.g. Somalia) that the Bradleys were completely inadequate for simple direct fire team on fire team engagements. When a $50 RPG can take out a Bradley (and even incapacitate or stun the occupants inside an M1) its??? time to fire the people that specified the weapons systems. We should have had some version of a light tank or medium skinned troop transport system 10 years before this conflict. I am so tired of congress saving money on ineffective weapon systems and taking the cost out of the flesh of our young men. I am told that our old Vietnam era medium armored vehicles that are in mothball could have done the trick

I do disagree with you about being way over our head. There is a clever behind the scenes tactic that was specifically designed to focus and concentrate terrorists into a foreign land where we could isolate and kill them. Prior to the invasion we had not concentrated opponent in any numbers to go after. Do you think we left the Syrian boarders unsecured by accident? Nope. We are letting them come into the region so we have an excuse to invading Syria as an option and also for the purpose of getting the terrorists to concentrate their fire power so we can annihilate them in large numbers. American Generals have a long history of extremely advanced tactics to draw upon. You would be amazed at how educated these guys are in military sciences. The only trouble we can get into is if we let the political will flounder and then prevent the generals from doing what they were trained to do. I would much rather this war on terrorism be fought in Iraq, Afghanistan and (and soon other places) rather than all over the country. People need to wake up to what is going on. This is not some small little skirmish ??? this is a battle to the death between the cultures of a freedom minded people and those that want mob rule. This will go on for a decade or more.

-OD


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## tomas101 (May 14, 2004)

dm, bush is giving pple 100,000 dollars to go work in iraq....many pple are doing this, its just that berg was captured...they are willing to give that type of money b/c they know the area isnt the safest, but many pple are willing to take that chance


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## Dale Mabry (May 14, 2004)

I wouldn't take that chance for money, if I felt morally obligated to help the peeps of iraq I imagine I would, I just don't  Things that don't have a direct effect on me are generally thrown by the wayside in my mind.  I will just let the people who know do what they need to do and not give it a second thought.

OD-When I said over our head, I used the wrong wording.  Unprepred may have been better.  If we now are realizing we need more body armor and the Bradley's are inadequate, then we obviously weren't fullr prepared.


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## kbm8795 (May 14, 2004)

I pretty much agree, Dale - though we were aware a year ago that there wasn't enough body armor. I'm a little more disturbed that the Pentagon recently announced that the problem was alleviated and that every soldier in Iraq had adequate body armor - and then yesterday a soldier was bold enough to ask Rumsfeld about it. The Secretary had to tell them that there were some production, delivery and shipment problems. Seems to me that Congress should have been asking defense authorities what THEY could do to help alleviate that problem. 

While I don't want to discredit the grieving remarks of Berg's father, I wonder about his motives in filing that lawsuit. If I remember correctly, this is the second one that was filed - the first one was dropped after his son made a phone call from Iraq shortly before he was abducted adn about the time he was allegedly released by American authorities.

The puzzling thing is that American personnel claim he was never in their custody and Iraqi authorities seem to be contradicting that claim. I assumed that most civilian contractors were supposed to be registered under contracts with our government and military there - but it almost sounds like Berg might have somehow been more of a free agent. I would rather not see the military get crawled on the carpet for not protecting an American citizen who they don't seem to have had much control over his movements in a dangerous situation.


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## kbm8795 (May 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Rob_NC *_
> Well,,, It certainly succeeded in doing that.  And it happens to be the one reason why I dislike that holiday.




As bothersome as that might be to some, it certainly shouldn't prevent you from enjoying a holiday that holds special religious significance to your personal faith.


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## Larva (May 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by moon *_



are you stupid or something, do you even understand about the origin of that symbol and i am not talking about what hitler used it for.


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## Rob_NC (May 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by kbm8795 *_
> As bothersome as that might be to some, it certainly shouldn't prevent you from enjoying a holiday that holds special religious significance to your personal faith.




In our family, we have made a point not to become obsessed with gift giving, rather we celebrate the real reason for the season.  IMHO, Xmas has become too commercial.


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## OceanDude (May 14, 2004)

sounds like a good topic for a "ho ho ho" thread Rob. It's kind of out of place in a beheading thread.

OD


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## Dale Mabry (May 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Rob_NC *_
> In our family, we have made a point not to become obsessed with gift giving, rather we celebrate the real reason for the season




You mean getting crunk?


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

Philippine rebels behead two hostages
JOLO, Philippines (AP) ??? Muslim extremists linked to the al-Qaeda terror network beheaded two of six Jehovah's Witnesses they kidnapped in the southern Philippines and dumped their heads in a public market, authorities said Thursday. 





  Filipino Dronie Montolo weeps over a box containing the head of his younger brother, Lemuel, one of two Jehovah's Witnesses beheaded by Muslim extremists this week.  
Reuters 

Brig. Gen. Romeo Tolentino, army commander on the southern island of Jolo, said the heads of the two male hostages were found in bags with notes denouncing them as "infidels." 

The bags were left at food stands about 100 yards apart at the main market in the town of Jolo. The attached notes called for "jihad" or Islamic holy war, included a passage from the Koran and were written in Arabic and the local Tausug dialect, Tolentino said. 

"They did this because they want to punish the nonbelievers of Allah," he said. 

The two men were abducted along with four women on Tuesday a few miles outside the town of Jolo in Patikul district, a stronghold of the murderous Abu Sayyaf group that survived a U.S.-backed military campaign to wipe it out. 

Police said the hostages had been selling Avon cosmetics, herbal teas and medical supplies on the predominantly Muslim island about 600 miles south of Manila. 

Tirso Bendijo, husband of one of the surviving captives, Nori Bendijo, denied newspaper reports that the six were trying to spread their religion. 

"They didn't even have religious leaflets," he said. "They were just trying to add some income." 

For the second consecutive night, the army on Wednesday shelled suspected Jolo island hideouts of the Abu Sayyaf, known for mass kidnappings of Filipinos and others, including Americans and Europeans. Some have been beheaded. 

On Thursday, hundreds of army reinforcements, including elite fighters who received counterterrorism training from U.S. troops this year, arrived in the town of Patikul from other villages on the island. 

Tuesday's kidnappings were the first by the Abu Sayyaf since the United States began supporting a Philippine military campaign to eradicate the group in February. 

A six-month U.S. military mission in the area ended last month. At that time American and Filipino officials boasted that the Abu Sayyaf had been decimated. 

The latest killings and abductions were a major setback for President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo's attempts to restore law and order in the Philippines and for Washington's focus on Southeast Asia in its war on terror. 

Military spokesman Col. Jose Mendoza denied that the kidnapping shows the Abu Sayyaf still has much power. 

"What we have now in Jolo are splinter groups that are saying they are still around," he said. "They staged this abduction because they are feeling the pressure." 

Officials said the two dead were Lemuel Bantolo, 21, and Leonel Mantic, of an unknown age. 

Mantic's 23-year-old widow, Emily, was feared to be one of the surviving captives along with Bendijo, 41; Cleofe Bantolo, 46; and Flora Bantolo, 40. The relationship between the captive Bantolos and victim Lemuel Bantolo wasn't immediately known. 

Police and military officers say the kidnappings were led by Muin Maulod Sahiron, a nephew of Radullan Sahiron who heads the Abu Sayyaf group in Patikul. 

Police said two men with pistols stopped a jeep carrying the Jehovah's Witnesses and forced them out on Tuesday. The driver was left behind and alerted authorities. Two other people in the vehicle, who were Muslims, were not taken hostage. 

Police also found Avon products and herbal teas in the jeep. 

A spokesman at Avon Products' New York headquarters, Victor Beaudet, said the abductees were not employees or official Avon representatives. 

The Abu Sayyaf has often kidnapped for ransom, but more frequently has abducted poor Filipinos, mostly Christians, to serve for weeks or months as slave labor. Kidnapped women are sometimes forced to marry guerrillas. 

On May 27, 2001, Abu Sayyaf rebels raided a tourist resort and abducted three Americans and 17 Filipinos. 

Days later, the gang beheaded American Guillermo Sobero from Corona, California. They also beheaded several Filipino hostages. 

That kidnapping saga ended on June 7 when U.S.-trained and backed Philippine soldiers tracked down the rebels. 

They rescued American missionary Gracia Burnham, but her husband Martin and Filipino nurse Ediborah Yap were killed in the raid. 



Why beheading? for the shock value or to illustrate the degree of hatred they feel?


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

Saudi Arabia - the beheading capital of the modern world.
Saudi Arabia uses public beheading as the punishment for murder, rape, drug trafficking, sodomy and armed robbery, apostasy and certain other offences. 45 men and 2 women were beheaded in 2002 and a further 52 men and 1 woman in 2003.  
The condemned of both sexes are given tranquillisers and then taken by police van to a public square or a car park after midday prayers. Their eyes are covered and they are blindfolded. The police clear the square of traffic and a sheet of blue plastic sheet about 16 feet square is laid out on the ground. 
Dressed in their own clothes, barefoot, with shackled feet and hands cuffed behind their back, the prisoner is led by a police officer to the centre of the sheet where they are made to kneel facing Mecca. An Interior Ministry official reads out the prisoner's name and crime to the crowd of witnesses.
A policeman hands the sword to the executioner who raises the gleaming scimitar and often swings it two or three times before approaches the prisoner from behind and jabbing him in the back with the tip of the sword causing the person to raise their head. (see photo)
Normally it takes just one swing of the sword to sever the head, often sending it flying some two or three feet. Paramedics bring the head to a doctor, who uses a gloved hand to stop the fountain of blood spurting from the neck. The doctor sews the head back on, and the body is wrapped in the blue plastic sheet and taken away in an ambulance. The body is then buried in an unmarked grave in the prison cemetery.
Beheadings of women did not start until the early 1990s, previously they were shot. 33 women have been publicly beheaded up to the end of 2003. 
Most executions are carried out in the three major cities of Riyadh, Jeddah and Dahran.
Saudi executioners take great pride in their work and the post tends to be handed down from one generation to the next.


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

Three Arab States Condemn Berg Atrocity
CNN

Three Arab states -- Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates --- are condemning the beheading of American Nicholas Berg by his Iraqi captors, shown in a video that appeared on an Islamist Web site.

"There is no doubt that killing detainees and mutilating the remains of the dead are acts which are condemned by all religions and contrary to the morals of all nations and peoples," Saudi Ambassador Prince Bandar bin Sultan said in a statement released Wednesday.

"The Al-Zarqawi group is a criminal, deviant and un-Islamic group, allied with bin Laden and the criminals of Al Qaeda who are killing even Muslims and Arabs for no reason.

"Accordingly, it is not out of character for them to commit acts that violate the teachings of Islam, a noble religion that deplores such acts."

The Web site that posted the video said the killing was carried out by Abu Mus'ab al-Zarqawi , a Jordanian national who heads an Islamist terrorist group that has claimed responsibility for numerous attacks on coalition forces in Iraq. The United States has accused Zarqawi of having close ties with Osama bin Laden. Berg's captors said his killing was in part a response to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. 

The Jordanian Embassy in Washington issued its own release, decrying the beheading.

"Jordan strongly condemns the barbaric act committed against Mr. Nick Berg, a U.S. contractor in Iraq, by the terrorist group headed by Abu Al Zarqawi.

"Jordan has issued a death sentence against Al Zarqawi for his terrorist activities which threatened to kill thousands of Jordanian citizens and for plotting attacks against U.S. and foreign interests in Jordan."

The United Arab Emirates called the killing a "heinous crime against the civilized world."

"We are ashamed because these terrorists carried out this revolting and inhumane act in the name of our religion and culture," UAE Information Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed al-Nahayan said in a written statement. "This disgusting brutality can never be justified and has nothing to do with Islam or with our Arab values."

He also extended the UAE's condolences to the family of Berg, saying, "We pray for them to find the courage and strength to deal with their loss."


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

Qa'ida, «KAH ihd uh», Al-, also spelled al-Qaida and al-Qaeda, is a terrorist organization that supports the activities of Muslim extremists around the world. Its founder and leader is Osama bin Laden, a Saudi-born millionaire (see Bin Laden, Osama). Al-Qa'ida is an Arabic term that means the base. The United States government has blamed al-Qa'ida for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks against the World Trade Center in New York City and the Pentagon Building near Washington, D.C. Al-Qa'ida also is believed to have aided other attacks against U.S. targets, including the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.




Map  Al-Qa'ida network  


Al-Qa'ida believes that governments of Muslim countries that fail to follow Islamic law should be overthrown. Al-Qa'ida also considers the United States to be a primary enemy of Islam. It opposed the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, the country where the holiest Muslim sites are. Thousands of U.S. troops were stationed in Saudi Arabia from 1991 to 2003. In 1996, bin Laden called upon Muslims to topple the Saudi government and liberate Islamic holy sites from foreign influence. Two years later, he also said it was the duty of Muslims to kill U.S. citizens, both civilian and military, and their allies.


In 1979, bin Laden reportedly joined the mujahideen, the Muslim resistance movement that was fighting against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. He spent much of the 1980???s raising funds to help the mujahideen. In the late 1980???s, bin Laden founded al-Qa'ida to resist the Soviets. During the 1990???s, al-Qa'ida expanded its goals. It opposed foreign influence in Muslim countries and called for the overthrow of Muslim governments allied to the United States. Al-Qa'ida is believed to support other Islamic extremist groups throughout the world.

In 1996, Bin Laden and other al-Qa'ida leaders moved to Afghanistan. There, they lived under the protection of the Taliban, a conservative Islamic group that controlled most of the country. After the September 2001 attacks, the United States and its allies launched a military campaign against the Taliban. The campaign drove the Taliban from power later in 2001.

Since the fall of the Taliban, United States and allied forces have continued to search for Bin Laden and other al-Qa'ida leaders. Several of the leaders have been captured or killed. The fate of many others, including Bin Laden, remains unknown. U.S. officials believe Bin Laden is still alive.


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## Dale Mabry (May 16, 2004)

If these Arab countries are so upset that these "extremists"are carrying these acts out in the name of Islam, you would think that they would be wasting noefforts in trying to put it to a stop.


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## V Player (May 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> If these Arab countries are so upset that these "extremists"are carrying these acts out in the name of Islam, you would think that they would be wasting noefforts in trying to put it to a stop.


I was beggining to wonder why this is not obvious to more people. Bruther Dale hast spoken the gospel.


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

Well I'm really pissed at the idiots that shamed America with their ignorant abuse of those prisoners n think firing squad. They are soldiers n acted like brainless scum but it isn't like Bush is going to listen to me. A lot of Americans are ashamed of them n it is likely that a lot of of people are ashamed of the actions of the extremists. I'm just spendin part of the day looking for answers that may not exist. 
I think it is naive of people to WONDER if these wartime abuses happen a lot n are just covered up. I'd like to think American soldiers above it or severely punished for failing to comply with a standard they are sworn to.


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

Al Qaeda Training Manual

http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/trainingmanual.htm


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## OceanDude (May 16, 2004)

The so called ???condemnation??? by these few so called Islamic states means nothing. The only countries making any statements are either extorted to do so by our political pressure or they are just pro-west on the surface to keep themselves in good standing for trading and for defensive protection (especially places like Qatar, Bahrain , UAE etc.). I have worked over there extensively and I know how the game is played. Later in the night they will have TV newscasters showing the various Kings and heads of states making large donations to the Palestinians to cover their bases.


I won???t take much notice until countries like Iran, Syria, Egypt, and Pakistan make stronger statements condemning these barbarious acts. If they really are such a peaceful loving people with high religious ideals why not have each countries leading Mullahs stand up and declare any Muslims committing such barbaric acts as infidels to Islam? But we know the answer to that one ??? they approve and condone it. So they are our enemies and not our friends. Let???s explain it to them what it really means to be our enemy.

-OD


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

KILLING GAMES




Japanese's killings were so cruel, savage, their ways of killing are beyond human imagination. They took killing people as a game. For instance, once, Japanese invaders tied up more than one thousand refugees from several places in a square, and made them stand in rows. Some of them wore long robes, some wore suits, some were women, some were children, all bare-feeted. Japanese first sprayed gasoline on their body, and then shot them with machine guns, a big fire set off whenever a person was shot. Dying refugees being shot and burnt, their body shivered in pain, it was a field of flickering flames. Japanese invaders laughed wildly, took great pleasure in it.
(see: NanJing historical documents archive, Interview with Liu RouYuan who escaped to HuNan from NanJing, "Massacres in the Occupied areas", Vol. 5 )

 Some Japanese soldiers took scores of refugees to a pond, forced them to take off their clothes and broke the ice to "catch fish", they froze to death immediately. Some resisted and were shot right at the spot, and then thrown into the pond. Japanese soldiers hang a young man for no reason at all with wire, and put dry wood below them, bake him slowly. After half of his body burned black, the Japanese soldiers left, shouting wild. One day, Japanese soldiers set a store on TaiPing avenue on fire and then forced the clerks to fight the fire. When people were fighting th fire, Japanese tied some the clerks and threw them into the fire and burnt them alive. On another day, some Japanese soldiers tied the hands and feet of some refugees and threw them into a shallow pond, then the Japanese threw grenades, blood and flesh flew all over, the Japanese laughed wild. In an other occasion, Japanese forced several hundred POWs to climb to the roof of the Department of Justice building, some knew they would definitely die, jumped off and died. Others climbed to the roof, Japanese then set fire from below, the POWs could not get down and cried painfully in the fire.




In another occasion, several Japanese soldiers broke into a store and captured a young man, they forced him to take off his clothes. Then they poured nitric acid down from the top of his head, his body eroded right away. The young man shouted curses in anger in order to die fast. Japanese soldiers then followed him, shouting and making fun of him, until he died. Some Japanese gathered several hundred POWs together, scooped out their eye balls, cut off their ears and noses and then burned them alive. Even more savage, a group of Japanese soldiers gang raped a middle-aged lady, later they learned that the lady was pregnant, so they cut open the lady and took out the fetus.  They took the fetus as a toy and played in the streets, met with a Japanese officer, they wavered the fetus on their bayonets to the officer, the officer returned a smile. The brutal killing game like this, who knows how many happened. Hundreds? Thousands? Above, we only listed a few instances


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

RAPE OF NANJING 

Those suffered most from the barbarity were women. They were not only raped by the Japanese, they were often brutally killed by the Japanese after the rape. "Sometimes (Japanese) cut off their breasts to reveal their white ribs; sometimes Japanese pierce through their lower body with bayonets, let them cry in pain! Sometimes they sticks wooden sticks, reed pipe or carrots into their lower body and stir, until they are dead, Japanese soldiers clap their hands and loudly laugh alongside" (Ref. The Record of the Brutal Acts of the Japanese Invaders, Political Department, KMT Military Commission, Published July 1938). 

A Chinese who were taken by the Japanese to serve as a cook told the following story after he escaped: 


"On December 16th, I went to the streets, smoke and fire flames had not yet been extinguished. The number of the dead bodies of my countrymen was terrifyingly large, especially there were many corpses of women... Eight of ten of them had their abdomens being cut open, intestines squeezed out. There were several mothers laid died together with their fetuses covered by blood... the breasts of these female bodies were either cut off or bayoneted into a mixture of flesh and blood ..." 
(Ref. "Blood debt--- Eye witness of the brutal acts of the enemy in the Capital", DaGong paper, Feb. 7th, 1938 ) 






Another Chinese who buried bodies in the suburbs told the following: 


"The bodies in the villages, piled up in tens or hundreds, laid in ditches, ponds, fields or among haystacks. The horror of the scenes is hard to describe. Especially women..., their faces were dark, teeth fell, cheeks broken, blood in their mouth, their breasts had been cut off, chest and abdomen had been pierced through, intestines dragged on the ground, lower abdomens had been kicked at, their bodies had been bayoneted randomly." 
(Ref. "Photographic history of the atrocities of the Japanese army", DaHua Publishing House, 1946 edition. ) 



During the period of the NanJing massacre, inside and outside the city, many female bodies laid like this: in a house close to the city wall at the XinZhong gate, laid the body of woman in her sixties, her lower body bloated; on north YangPi street, a girl laid dead, with her abdomen being cut open and intestines dragged out, two eyes wide open, blood in the mouth. In GuYiDian street, a girl of age twelve laid dead, her under-ware was torn, her eyes closed and mouth open. These facts tell us: these women not only died under the butcher' knifes of the Japanese, they had been humiliated before they died. 

The crime of rape that the Japanese committed were extremely savage, just like their brutal murders. The Japanese officers never restrained these brutal acts, they even encourage them, to satisfy their soldiers animal desire. As a consequence, Japanese invaders raped wherever they went. In ShangHai, SuZhu, WuXi, HangZhou... Japanese invaders did the same. The fate of the women in NanJing were particularly miserable. 

After the fall of NanJing, Japanese invaders searched everywhere in NanJing in groups, whenever they found women, they gang raped them. "The Japanese brutal acts witnessed by foreigners" by Tian BoLie recorded the reports of the atrocities in NanJing, most of them were rape. Just take a few, and one can see the crimes of the Japanese army: 





"December 14th, noon, Japanese soldiers broke into a house in JianYin street, they kidnaped four girls, raped them for two hours. 
December 14th, night, Japanese soldiers broke into the homes of Chinese residents, humiliated women, or took them away...
In the night of December 15th, a large group of Japanese soldiers broke into the dorm of Jingling University, raped over thirty women, several women were gang raped by more than six Japanese. 
In the night of December 15th, many Japanese soldiers broke into the resident homes in ShanTiao street, humiliated many women. 
December 16th, Japanese soldiers kidnaped seven girls from Infantry University, aged from sixteen to twenty-one. Five of them were later released. According to the report of 18th, they were raped over six times a day.
In the dusk of December 18th, about four hundred and fifty women fled to our office, requesting protection. Many of them were raped by Japanese... 
(See. "The Japanese brutal acts witnessed by foreigners", p189--199, quoting the report from NanJing International Committee. ) 

Here, we only listed a few cases in the first couple of days after the fall of NanJing. In fact, "Rape...continued in large scale during six weeks after the fall of NanJing" (See. "Judgment of International Military Tribunal for the Far East " p458 ). These crimes were not only the acts of the Japanese soldiers, but also the acts of the Japanese low and high ranking officers... The principal criminal of the NanJing massacre  himself, raped Din Lan and other two women near ZhongHua gate, raped Liu YuQing and other three women at SaiHongQiao, raped over ten women at other places. 
(See. "Suit against the principal criminal of NanJing massacre", HePing Daily, December 31th, 1946). 

Japanese invaders not only raped to satisfy their animal desire... These animals often gang rape women and then kill them and mutilate their bodies. Many women were gang raped by several, tens of Japanese, the results were usually the death of the victims. The bodies of this kind of victims were everywhere. ... 




.... 

During the Massacre, among the rape victims, there were wives of professors, nuns, workers, teachers, students, etc,etc. Even more shocking is the following report: 


"At the end of February, a refugee family of fourteen people were all murdered by Japanese. The youngest daughter was only fourteen, she died on two square tables, upper body dressed, lower body totally stripped of clothing, blood was all over the tables, her lower body was bayoneted twice. An elder daughter died in the bed, in the same way as the younger one. The mother died at the table, with a one year old baby in her arms. The baby was also cut by knife, intestines flew out of the body, too horrible to look at. Members of the International Committee went to investigate, and took photos, and sent the photos to members of US citizenship and the Jap embassy..."
" Young girls were usually not mature,..., the Japanese then tear open their lower body and gang rape them."
(Ref. "The Atrocities of Japanese Invaders", Du ChengXiang, Time Publisher, p55, 1939 edition ) 

... 

 Even pregnant women were not spared. "At 7:30 PM of December 19th, two Japanese soldiers gang raped a seventeen year old woman who has been pregnant for 9 months, led to the abortion of the fetus, the woman became insane. (Ref. "Judgment of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East" p 451) Outside HongWu gate, Japanese soldiers raped a pregnant woman in a farmer home, and then cut open the abdomen of the woman and took out the fetus. In another case, Japanese soldiers wanted to rape a pregnant woman, her mother-in- law struggled to stop them, the Japanese were brutal than anything, they kicked the old lady, and cut the pregnant woman with knife, a fetus of several month flew out of the body, in a moment two lives ended like this.
(Ref. XinHua Daily, Feb 24th, 1951) 

 Many women were killed after being raped. One Japanese officer advised his subordinates, "To avoid too many troubles,...kill them after that" (Ref. "A Photographic history of the atrocities of the Japanese army ") Many female victims could never tell their stories. But there was one woman escaped from such death. She originally lived at No 6, JianYin Street. She and several women were taken away by the Japanese, they washed clothes during the day, and were gang raped during the night. The elder ones were raped ten to twenty times a night, the younger and prettier ones, even more. On January 1st, two Japanese took her to an abandoned school, bayoneted her ten times, four times on the back of her neck, one wound in her arm, one on her face, four on her back, the Japanese thought she was dead and left. She was later found by passing-bys and sent to hospital, and finally survived. Some rape victims, though not killed, contracted sexual transmitted diseases, suffered all their lives.


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

I would prefer American Soldiers comport themselves with dignity and honor despite feeling they have reason to not.


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

Documentary of US 'war crimes' shocks Europe

June 12 2002 at 05:28PM



By Clive Freeman

Berlin - American soldiers have been involved in the torture and murder of captured Taliban prisoners, and may have aided in the "disappearance" of up to 3 000 men in the region of Mazar-i-Sharif, according to Jamie Doran, an Irish documentary film-maker.

Doran's latest film, Massacre At Mazar, was shown on Wednesday in in the Reichstag, the German parliament building in Berlin, and there were immediate calls for an international commission to be set up to investigate charges made in the documentary.

Andrew McEntee, a leading international human rights lawyer, who has viewed the film footage and read full transcripts, believes there is prima facie evidence of serious war crimes having been committed by American soldiers in Afghanistan.

'The Americans did whatever they wanted' 
McEntee, who was in Berlin for Wednesday's special screening, said war crimes had been committed not just under international law but, also, "under the laws of the United States itself".

Much of the footage shown in Doran's 20-minute documentary was taken secretly, and although witnesses were said to be living in fear of reprisal from within Afghanistan itself they had all agreed to appear at any future international war crimes tribunal to give evidence, it was claimed.

One witness in the film claimed he had seen an American soldier break an Afghan prisoner's neck and pour acid on others. "The Americans did whatever they wanted. We had no power to stop them," he alleged.

Sometimes prisoners who were beaten up and taken outside had "disappeared", he said.

In other sequences witnesses, among them two men, claimed they had been forced to drive into the desert with hundreds of Taliban prisoners.

The living were then summarily shot while 30 to 40 American soldiers purportedly stood by, it was alleged. The prisoners had been taken there on the orders of the local American commander, according to the documentary.

In the film, an Afghan witness admitted to killing prisoners himself, and another officer, allegedly a senior officer in the army of deputy defence minister Dostum's forces, was said to have gone into hiding following threats to his life.

The far-left Party of Democratic Socialism (PDS) arranged for the special showing of Massacre At Mazar in the Reichstag. Party chairman Roland Claus was cautious regarding its content but did spoke of its attempt at "authenticity."

Andre Brie, a PDS member of the European Parliament, concerned by reports of ill treatment of Taliban prisoners, said he would be in favour of an international commission looking into "disturbing" questions raised by the film.

At a press conference Brie said he had known of Doran's dangerous film activity in Afghanistan, and had helped to support him financially.

The PDS party faction had wanted to obtain authentic footage of the war in Afghanistan, he said.

The film was due to be screened at the European Parliament in Strasbourg later on Wednesday evening. - Sapa-DPA


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

Article published Wednesday, May 12, 2004

Tiger Force answers still elusive
Washington slow in responding to calls for Army prosecution

By JOE MAHR
BLADE STAFF WRITER


For 37 years former Army journalist Dennis Stout has waited for answers - and justice - after witnessing members of an elite platoon in Vietnam kill unarmed civilians.
The Army conducted a major probe in the 1970s but buried the results and did not charge anyone. After The Blade exposed the atrocities in October, the Army began reviewing its case again - even reinterviewing Mr. Stout - and told U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D., Cleveland) that answers would be available at the end of March.

They're still waiting.

Mr. Kucinich sent a letter this week to acting Army Secretary Les Brownlee asking again why the Army did not prosecute former members of the unit known as Tiger Force and whether it plans to prosecute them now.

"I hope that the Army today is taking seriously the crimes committed by people in uniform in 1967, and the failure of the Army to prosecute even one of those cases," Mr. Kucinich wrote.

The Blade's October series, "Buried Secrets, Brutal Truths," documented the war crimes of a highly acclaimed platoon that went on long search-and-destroy missions. Facing enemy ambushes and booby traps, some soldiers turned their weapons on unarmed men, women, and children in a slaughter through two provinces in the Central Highlands from May to November, 1967, the longest-known series of atrocities by a battle unit in Vietnam, with a death toll estimated in the hundreds.

A week after the series ran, the Army opened an "active review" of the case.

Since then, the Army's public affairs office has rarely responded to requests from The Blade seeking updates on the status of the case, including one request May 3. Reached yesterday, Lt. Col. Pamela Hart said she had been too busy responding to prisoner abuse by U.S. soldiers in Iraq to check on the status of the Tiger Force case.

In the Iraq case, seven military police reservists have been charged with crimes, and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld insisted to Congress Friday that he will push for justice.

"Part of what we believe in is making sure that when wrongdoing or scandal do occur, that they are not covered up, but they are exposed, they are investigated, and the guilty are brought to justice," he testified.

Still, a key question remains about Mr. Rumsfeld's role in the Tiger Force case, which was killed the same month in 1975 that Mr. Rumsfeld began his first stint as secretary of defense. Mr. Rumsfeld has said he does not remember the case despite it being the longest war-crimes investigation of Vietnam.

Mr. Kucinich said he is waiting for findings from the latest Army Tiger Force probe, under which:

w??Col. William Condron, chief of criminal law for the judge advocate general's office, would determine how the original case was dropped and who ordered it dropped. Allegations were still secret, and prosecution risked publicity.

w??Maj. Gen. Donald Ryder, the Army's top law-enforcement officer, would decide whether to recommend prosecutions of anyone in the case, including any of the 18 former soldiers who originally have been found by Army investigators to have committed crimes. There is no statute of limitations on murder, and retired soldiers still could be prosecuted.

General Ryder is also a key player in the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal, having issued a classified report in November that warned of problems in the Iraqi prison system. Still, Mr. Stout is skeptical the Army will follow through on its latest Tiger Force inquiry, noting how no one has been prosecuted for crimes he has long reported from the Quang Ngai province, including the execution of 35 women and children in a field in July, 1967.

"I don't think the culture has changed a bit," said Mr. Stout, now a contractor in Arizona.

Army agents this year also interviewed former medic Rion Causey, who said officers systematically ordered the platoon to kill all males in part of Quang Nam province.

The California nuclear engineer is also frustrated. "There's no sense in dragging this out," he said.

Contact Joe Mahr at:
jmahr@theblade.com
or 419-724-6180


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

The atrocity claims below are all taken from the "1st Marine Division" session of the Winter Soldier Investigation -- just one of 15 sessions held during the three day event. 

Complete transcripts can be found at The Sixties Project.


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...he just moved up to the old woman and started nudging her and then I saw her fall out of the way. When the convoy had completely passed, like she was on the road, really like squashed.


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He was about 70 years old. I believe he was some sort of religious, like a monk or something like that, from his dress. He had an ID card and he was in pretty bad shape so they didn't want to call in a MEDIVAC chopper so they told us to kill him.


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Whenever any prisoners were taken, the crewmen in the helicopters were in charge also of loading, in addition to maintenance on the aircraft would blindfold the prisoners, holding the blindfold on with heavy wire, safety wire. They'd bind their hands, bind their feet and maybe bind them into a fetal position and upon landing, rather than releasing them so they could walk off the aircraft, they'd throw them out--get the grunts to mark how far they could throw them and have little contests.


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The calling in of artillery for games, the way it was worked would be the mortar forward observers would pick out certain houses in villages, friendly villages, and the mortar forward observers would call in mortars until they destroyed that house and then the artillery forward observer would call in artillery until he destroyed another house and whoever used the least amount of artillery, they won.


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...we didn't give the people any time to get out of the villages. We just went in and burned them and if people were in the villages yelling and screaming, we didn't help them. We just burned the houses as we went.


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The torturing of prisoners was done with beatings and I saw one case where there were two prisoners. One prisoner was staked out on the ground and he was cut open while he was alive and part of his insides were cut out...


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When we went through the villages and searched people the women would have all their clothes taken off and the men would use their penises to probe them to make sure they didn't have anything hidden anywhere and this was raping but it was done as searching... MODERATOR. The company commander was around when this happened? CAMILE. Right.


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I saw one case where a woman was shot by a sniper, one of our snipers. When we got up to her she was asking for water. And the Lt. said to kill her. So he ripped off her clothes, they stabbed her in both breasts, they spread-eagled her and shoved an E- tool up her vagina, an entrenching tool, and she was still asking for water. And then they took that out and they used a tree limb and then she was shot.


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...when you shot someone you didn't think you were shooting at a human. They were a gook or a Commie and it was okay.


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So these guys decided that they would kind of play a little game and they let her run about fifty yards and they'd fire in front of her so she'd have to turn around, and then they'd let her run another direction and then they'd cut her off. This went on about a half hour until the time the sun started to come up. So then they decided it best to eliminate her as soon as possible, so they just ripped her off right there...


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The skipper came down to where they had found the prisoner, had asked the people around him to get going and that he would tend to the prisoner. I was machine gunner at the time and I had to set up some security around him and I came up over a rock to watch what he was doing and he took out his .45 and he blew his head off. This, like, wasn't really the first time this ever happened.


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I was picked up by a truckload of grunt Marines with two company grade officers, 1st Lts.; we were about 5 miles down the road, where there were some Vietnamese children at the gateway of the village and they gave the old finger gesture at us. It was understandable that they picked this up from the GIs there. They stopped the trucks--they didn't stop the truck, they slowed down a little bit, and it was just like response, the guys got up, including the lieutenants, and just blew all the kids away.


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...they would find VCs or something (I never got the story on them) but, anyway, they were human beings, obviously dead, and they would take them and string them out on fences, on barbed wire fences, stripped, and sometimes they would take flesh wounds, take a knife and cut the body all over the place to make it bleed, and look gory as a reminder to the people in the village.


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...in order to explain these civilian bodies it was standard procedure to carry several extra fragmentation grenades in the field and these would be planted on the bodies in order to make them a Viet Cong rather than a civilian.


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A lifer was in charge of the mail. He stopped the mail for about three days because he wanted his troops to shine their shoes or something or clean up or shave or get a haircut and he stopped the mail. So someone told him if we don't get mail by noon on a specific day before midnight, that night you're going to be offered. But since he was hard and he was in the Korean War, he thought that what happened in the old Marine Corps is happening in Vietnam, he persisted and the mail wasn't gotten out and before midnight he was fragged.


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...in ITR in the Marine Corps you go through Infantry Training Regiment. They have a class on when you interrogate a POW or a villager what to look for--where they hide things. They stress over and over that a woman has more available places to hide things like maps or anything than a male. So it took about twenty minutes to cover where to search for a male suspect, and about an hour on a female.


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...it makes a lasting impression on some guy -- some "zip" -- that's watching his daughter worked over. So we have a better opportunity of keeping him in line by working her over.


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Back to this specific instance where I talk about the disembowelment of the women--I think the person involved was a freaked out sexist, if that's what you're trying to get at. I think maybe he had problems. He had to be--he was in the Army for 20 years.


----------
I went to Boot Camp at Paris Island and we had a lot of brothers from Philly there and the common term used in discussing the brothers amongst the DIs, the drill instructors, was they were "niggers." "Come here nigger, do this nigger." 


----------
They usually tie them up and put a blindfold on them and they'll put maybe three guys in a C-54 and fly off. They'll ask the guys in the air, "What is your unit?" and all this jive, and if they don't cooperate, they just might take one of them and say, "Okay, take off the blindfold," and just shove him right out.


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The ROK Marines came up to us and one of their officers asked us if they could have the NVA nurses... They tied their hands to the ground, they spread-eagled them; they raped all four. There was like maybe ten or twenty ROK Marines involved. They tortured them, they sliced off their breasts, they used machetes and cut off parts of their fingers and things like this. When that was over, they took pop-up flares (which are aluminum canisters you hit with your hand; it'll shoot maybe 100-200 feet in the air)--they stuck them up their vaginas--all four of them--and they blew the top of their heads off.


----------
They didn't find any enemy but they found a woman with bandages. So she was questioned by six ARVNs and the way they questioned her, since she had bandages, they shot her. She was hit about twenty times. After she was questioned, and, of course, dead, this guy came over, who was a former major, been in the service for twenty years, and he got hungry again and came back over working with USAID, Aid International Development. He went over there, ripped her clothes off and took a knife and cut, from her vagina almost all the way up, just about up to her breasts and pulled her organs out, completely out of her cavity, and threw them out. Then, he stopped and knelt over and commenced to peel every bit of skin off her body and left her there as a sign for something or other and that was those instances.


----------
The bridge got a radio call that they had supposedly received a sniper round from this village. So the Lt. on the bridge told them to sweep the village. They swept the village and they called back that there was nothing found. There was nothing found, I mean, there were just people in the village and so the Lt. told them to burn the village. From my position, which was about 150 to 200 yards away, and there was a tree line in the way, smoke started coming up over the tree line and about this time, I guess about three minutes after the smoke started showing, there was a lot of screaming and just chaos coming from the direction of the village and a lot of people started running out of the tree line. From where I was standing, I saw maybe two or three male villagers and the rest were women and children--some of the children walking and some of them young enough to be carried, I would say under a year, maybe. The last thing I heard as a command was the gunnery sergeant told them to open fire to keep them back. Their village was on fire and they were in panic; they didn't stop, so they just cut down the women and children with mortars, machine guns, tank...


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I saw approximately, during my tour, twenty deformed infants under the age of one. It never made sense to me, I thought it was congenital, or something, from venereal disease, because they had flippers and things. I didn't understand what I saw until approximately six months ago I read a report that was put out by Stamford which talked about the thalidomide content within Agent Orange and it was common knowledge that Agent Orange was sprayed in the area...


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...if we had a village where we'd lost people because of booby traps, we'd call in napalm and it just burns down the village and the people.


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...we had mortar squads in the infantry used to avoid going into a village or something if we thought it might be VC infested or something like this, we'd send in Willie Peter mortars, 60 millimeters, and this would burn up the hootches --that explode--throwing white phosphorus on different hootches in the village. Start the hootches burning and also kill people.


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...they used to have these things called "Pop-ups." You hit them on the bottom and it shoots like a green star cluster up in the air. It's used for location when somebody wants to find out where you are and we used to shoot them down into the village that was below and watch the people run around and we used to get big kicks out of it.



www.wintersoldier.com - 
On January 31, 1971, members of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) met in a Detroit hotel to document war crimes that they had participated in or witnessed during their combat tours in Vietnam. During the next three days, more than 100 Vietnam veterans and 16 civilians gave anguished, emotional testimony describing hundreds of atrocities against innocent civilians in South Vietnam, including rape, arson, torture, murder, and the shelling or napalming of entire villages. The witnesses stated that these acts were being committed casually and routinely, under orders, as a matter of policy.

In April, the VVAW stormed Washington in a week-long protest. At the height of it, spokesman John Kerry went before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations to accuse the United States military of committing massive numbers of war crimes in Vietnam. The appearance launched Kerry's political career. The charges he made shocked and sickened a nation, changed the course of a war and stained the reputation of the American military for decades.

But the mass murder of civilians was never American policy in Vietnam. War crimes were the exception, not the rule. And the Winter Soldier tribunal itself -- which John Kerry had helped moderate -- turned out to be, in the words of historian Guenter Lewy, "packed with pretenders and liars."

Massachusetts elected John Kerry to the U.S. Senate in 1984. Now he is seeking the most powerful job in the world.


----------
If you're just passing through, try the quick tour: a list of key points, some memorable quotes, and a look at the Winter Soldier Investigation's claims and their debunking.

Our newest topic is a time line that lays out many of the events of the international war crimes propaganda effort.

If you packed a lunch, consider taking a crack at the entire 32-page transcript of John Kerry's testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Check out our unique and growing collection of documents, clips and more. Or save yourself a few hundred bucks, and dig into John Kerry's The New Soldier.

If you've been here before, What's New lists and links our recent updates. In-depth essays are available in Special Features, along with some deeply disturbing early samples of Garry Trudeau's "Doonesbury." Several tons of additional information on the "war crimes" propaganda effort and its relation to the 2004 campaign can be found in our news articles.

Last, but certainly not least, we present a remarkable assortment of letters from WinterSoldier.com readers along with our own commentary in Incoming.


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## bandaidwoman (May 16, 2004)

Oh let's not forget the ethnic cleansing of the muslims by the Christian Serbs....



> The Arkanovci???who operated under a separate authority???then instituted a reign of terror, including random executions, murder, rape and looting, in which they were joined by Seselj???s, Jovic???s and various other groups of "volunteers." A night curfew was immediately imposed, which remained in force until the "ethnic cleansing" was completed.  *Muslim men were sent into locally established detention centers, where many of them died under torture.*
> 
> Those who could flee did so.  This was the stage of "unorganized" expulsion of the Muslim population.  After that came the next step: total expulsion using administrative measures.  For this to happen, it was necessary to round up all those hiding in the city, or its immediate surroundings, in order to register them.
> 
> ...


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

I think what Jane Fonda did was wrong, she went too far n I wouldn't vote for Kerry if my head was on fire n he was holding a bucket of water...


After being blocked from holding a ceremony honoring the war dead at Arlington National Cemetery, the veterans marched to the Capitol to present sixteen demands to Congress. At the end of the day; they held a candlelight march around the White House. After a man who said his son died in Vietnam blew taps, the soldiers began flinging their war medals over a high wire fence in front of the Capitol: Purple Hearts, Bronze Star Medals, Silver Stars -- bits of ribbon and metal hurled in the face of the government that had so betrayed them. Some, after throwing away what had cost them so dearly, broke down and cried.

One of them was John Kerry, Vietnam Navy veteran and aspiring politician who had been among those who organized the protest. Kerry flung a handful of medals -- he had received the Silver Star, a Bronze Star Medal, and three Purple Hearts -- over the fence. Kerry spoke later that week before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, putting a face on the antiwar movement far different from the one seen before -- the scruffy hippie or wild-eyed activist. Kerry represented the All-American boy, mentally twisted by being asked to do terrible things, then abandoned by his government.

From start to finish, the public took Dewey Canyon III at face value, not understanding that they were watching brilliant political theater. Kerry, a Kennedy protege with white-hot political aspirations, ascended center stage as both a war hero and as an antiwar hero throwing away his combat decorations. His speech, apparently off the cuff, was eloquent, impassioned.

But years later, after his election to the Senate, Kerry's medals turned up on the wall of his Capitol Hill office. When a reporter noticed them, Kerry admitted that the medals he had thrown that day were not his. And Kerry's emotional, from-the-heart speech had been carefully crafted by a speechwriter for Robert Kennedy named Adam Walinsky, who also tutored him on how to present it. TV reporters totally ignored another Vietnam veteran, Melville L. Stephens, a former aide to Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, chief of Naval Operations, who that same day urged the Senate not to abandon America's allies in South Vietnam. "Peace for us must not come at the cost of their lives," Stephens said in a speech he wrote himself.





 but I still  smell a cover up here.


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

What happens inside a person to make them so entirely capable of acting less than human? or is it that they are in fact acting entirely human?


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

How young Marines were made War Criminals and Massacred Civilians at Nasariya  


 "The Iraqis are sick people and we are the chemotherapy," said Corporal Ryan Dupre. "I am starting to hate this country. Wait till I get hold of a friggin' Iraqi. No, I won't get hold of one. I'll just kill him."

The Times, London, March 31, 2003

Today in the online edition of the conservative daily, The Times , was published a piece by the correspondent Mark Franchetti in Nasiriya. It was headlined ???US Marines turn fire on civilians at the bridge of death??? which graphically described a massacre of Iraqi civilians at the hands of US Marines in the outskirts of the besieged town. And goes on to show us generally how young Marines are made into the killers of civilians. 

It is useful to note that The Times is a strong supporter of the Tory Party in Britain and has only once endorsed a Labour Party candidate in recent times: Tony Blair! Because the current Prime Minister was, according to The Times, the best choice to defend British interests, namely its decaying imperial needs. 

Nobody could accuse The Times of having the slightest hesitation in its support for the British government or the invasion of Iraq. The Times was born during the splendor of the British Empire. 

Franchetti writes in a piece most likely to be on the front page of tomorrow???s edition of the paper: 

"...some 15 vehicles, including a minivan and a couple of trucks, blocked the road. They were riddled with bullet holes. Some had caught fire and turned into piles of black twisted metal. Others were still burning. 

"Amid the wreckage I counted 12 dead civilians, lying in the road or in Nearby ditches. 

"All had been trying to leave this southern town overnight, probably for fear of being killed by US helicopter attacks and heavy artillery. 

"Their mistake had been to flee over a bridge that is crucial to the coalition's supply lines and to run into a group of shell-shocked young American marines with orders to shoot anything that moved. 

"One man's body was still in flames. It gave out a hissing sound. 

"Tucked away in his breast pocket, thick wads of banknotes were turning to ashes. His savings, perhaps. 

"Down the road, a little girl, no older than five and dressed in a pretty orange and gold dress, lay dead in a ditch next to the body of a man who may have been her father. Half his head was missing. Nearby, in a battered old Volga, peppered with ammunition holes, an Iraqi woman perhaps the girl's mother - was dead, slumped in the back seat. 

"A US Abrams tank nicknamed Ghetto Fabulous drove past the bodies. 

"...a father, baby girl and boy lay in a shallow grave. 

"On the bridge itself a dead Iraqi civilian lay next to the carcass of a donkey. As I walked away, Lieutenant Matt Martin, whose third child, 
Isabella, was born while he was on board ship en route to the Gulf, appeared beside me. 

'Did you see all that?' he asked, his eyes filled with tears. 'Did you see that little baby girl? I carried her body and buried it as best I could but I had no time. It really gets to me to see children being killed like this, but we had no choice.' 

They had "no choice?" Every soldier has the choice of refusing to serve or to open fire against civilians. The ones who did not have any choice, were the civilians mowed down. 

Franchetti added: 

"Martin's distress was in contrast to the bitter satisfaction of some of his fellow marines as they surveyed the scene. 'The Iraqis are sick people and we are the chemotherapy,' said Corporal Ryan Dupre. 'I am starting to hate this country. Wait till I get hold of a friggin' Iraqi. No, I won't get hold of one. I'll just kill him.' 

The journalist then described the evolution of these soldiers, from young arrogant soldiers told that they would be received as "liberators" by their superiors to become targets of small arms by Iraqi civilians and soldiers, who inflicted heavy casualties in their ranks and showed courage in defending their town. 

"I was with Alpha company"- continues The Times correspondent, explaining how they received the news of ambushes of other Marines by armed civilians. 

???Five wounded soldiers were rescued by our convoy, including one who had been shot four times. The attackers were believed to be members of the Fedayeen Saddam, a group of 15,000 fighters under the command of Saddam's psychopathic son Uday. 

"Blown-up tires, a pool of blood, spent ammunition and shards of glass from the bullet ridden windscreen marked the spot where the ambush had taken place.??? 

???Swiftly, our AAVs (23-ton amphibious assault vehicles) took up defensive positions. About 100 marines jumped out of their vehicles and took cover in ditches, pointing their sights at a mud-caked house. 

"Was it harboring gunmen? Small groups of marines approached, cautiously, to search for the enemy. 

???A dozen terrified civilians, mainly women and children, emerged with their hands raised.???It's just a bunch of Hajis," said one gunner from his turret, using their nickname for Arabs. "Friggin' women and children, that's all." 

Now a witness to the war the journalist continues: 

???Cobras and Huey attack helicopters began firing missiles at targets on the edge of the city. Plumes of smoke rose as heavy artillery shook the ground under our feet. 

"Heavy machinegun fire echoed across the huge rubbish dump that marks the entrance to Nasiriya. Suddenly there was return fire from three large oil tanks at a refinery. 

"The Cobras were called back, and within seconds they roared above our heads, firing off missiles in clouds of purple tracer fire. 

"There were several loud explosions. Flames burst high into the sky from one of the oil tanks. 

"The marines believed that what opposition there was had now been crushed. "We are going in, we are going in," shouted one of the officers. 

???More than 20 AAVs, several tanks and about 10 Hummers equipped with roof-mounted, anti-tank missile launchers prepared to move in. 

"Crammed inside them were some 400 marines. Tension rose as they loaded their guns and stuck their heads over the side of the AAVs through the open roof, their M-16 pointed in all directions. 

"As we set off towards the eastern city gate there was no sense of the mayhem awaiting us down the road. 

"A few locals dressed in rags watched the awesome spectacle of America's war machine on the move. Nobody waved. 

???Slowly we approached the first bridge. Fires were raging on either side of the road; Cobras had destroyed an Iraqi military truck and a T55 tank positioned inside a dugout. Powerful explosions came from inside the bowels of the tank as its ammunition and heavy shells were set off by the fire [???]??? 

???[???] We charged onto the bridge, and as we crossed the Euphrates, a large mural of Saddam came into view. Some marines reached for their disposable cameras. 

???[???] Suddenly, as we approached ambush alley on the far side of the bridge, the crackle of AK-47s broke out. Our AAVs began to zigzag to avoid being hit by a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG). 

"The road widened out to a square, with a mosque and the portrait of Saddam on the left-hand side [???]???" 

The journalist even tried to somehow justify the actions of the Marines: 

???[???] The exchange of fire was relentless. We were pinned down for more than three hours as Iraqis hiding inside houses and a hospital and behind street corners fired a barrage of ammunition. Despite the marines' overwhelming firepower, hitting the Iraqis was not easy. 

"The gunmen were not wearing uniforms and had planned their ambush well ??? stockpiling weapons in dozens of houses, between which they moved freely pretending to be civilians. 

"It's a bad situation," said First Sergeant James Thompson, who was running around with a 9mm pistol in his hand. 

"We don't know who is shooting at us. They are even using women as scouts. The women come out waving at us, or with their hands raised. We freeze, but the next minute we can see how she is looking at our positions and giving them away to the fighters hiding behind a street corner. It's very difficult to distinguish between the fighters and civilians." 

???Across the square, genuine civilians were running for their lives. Many, including some children, were gunned down in the crossfire. In a surreal scene, a father and mother stood out on a balcony with their children in their arms to give them a better view of the battle raging below. A few minutes later several US mortar shells landed in front of their house. 

???In all probability, the family is dead. 

???[???]An AAV from Charlie company was racing back towards the bridge to evacuate some wounded marines when it was hit by two RPGs. 

"The heavy vehicle shook but withstood the explosions. 

???Then the Iraqis fired again. This time the rocket plunged into the vehicle through the open rooftop. The explosion was deadly, made 10 times more powerful by the ammunition stored in the back. 

"The wreckage smoldered in the middle of the road. I jumped out from the rear hatch of our vehicle, briefly taking cover behind a wall. 

"When I reached the stricken AAV, the scene was mayhem. The heavy, thick rear ramp had been 
blown open. There were pools of blood and bits of flesh everywhere. 

"A severed leg, still wearing a desert boot, lay on what was left of the ramp among playing cards, a magazine, cans of Coke and a small bloodstained teddy bear. 

"They are f****** dead, they are dead. Oh my God. Get in there. Get in there now and pull them out," shouted a gunner in a state verging on hysterical. 

"There was panic and confusion as a group of young marines, shouting and cursing orders at one another, pulled out a maimed body. 

"Two men struggled to lift the body on a stretcher and into the back of a Hummer, but it would not fit inside, so the stretcher remained almost upright, the dead man's leg, partly blown away, dangling in the air. 

"We shouldn't be here," said Lieutenant Campbell Kane, 25, who was born in Northern Ireland. "We can't hold this. They are trying to suck us into the city and we haven't got enough ass up here to sustain this. We need more tanks, more helicopters." 

"Closer to the destroyed AAV, another young marine was transfixed with fear and kept repeating: "Oh my God, I can't believe this. Did you see his leg? It was blown off. It was blown off." 

???[???]About 1pm, after three hours of intense fighting, the order was given to regroup and try to head out of the city in convoy. 

"Several marines who had lost their vehicles piled into the back of ours. 

"We raced along ambush alley at full speed, close to a line of houses. "My driver got hit," said one of the marines who joined us, his face and uniform caked in mud. "I went to try to help him when he got hit by another RPG or a mortar." 

"I don't even know how many friends I have lost. I don't care if they nuke that bloody city now. From one house they were waving while shooting at us with AKs from the next. It was insane." 

???There was relief when we finally crossed the second bridge to the northeast of the city in mid-afternoon. 

"But there was more horror to come. Beside the smoldering wreckage of another AAV were the bodies of another four marines, laid out in the mud and covered with camouflage ponchos. 

"There were body parts everywhere. One of the dead was Second Lieutenant Fred Pokorney, 31, a marine artillery officer from Washington state. 

???[???]Pokorney made it over the second bridge and a few hundred yards down a highway through dusty flatlands before his vehicle was ambushed. Pokorney and his men had no chance. 

"Fully loaded with ammunition, their truck exploded in the middle of the road, its remains burning for hours. Pokorney was hit in the chest by an RPG. 

???Another man who died was Fitzgerald Jordan, a staff sergeant from Texas. 

???[???]Frantic medics did what they could to relieve horrific injuries, until four helicopters landed in the middle of the highway to take the injured to a military hospital. 

"Each wounded marine had a tag describing his injury. One had gunshot wounds to the face, another to the chest. Another simply lay on his side in the sand with a tag reading: "Urgent - surgery, buttock." 

???One young marine was assigned the job of keeping the flies at bay. Some of his comrades, exhausted, covered in blood, dirt and sweat walked around dazed. 

"There were loud cheers as the sound of the heaviest artillery yet to pound Nasiriya shook the ground. Before last week the overwhelming majority of these young men had never been in combat. Few had even seen a dead body. Now, their faces had changed. 

???[???]They suspected that civilian cars, including taxis, had helped resupply the enemy inside the city. When cars were spotted speeding along two roads, frantic calls were made over the radio to get permission to "kill the vehicles". Twenty-four hours earlier it would almost certainly have been denied: now it was granted. 

???Immediately, the level of force levelled at civilian vehicles was overwhelming. Tanks were placed on the road and AAVs lined along one side. Several taxis were destroyed by helicopter gunships as they drove down the road. 

???A lorry filled with sacks of wheat made the fatal mistake of driving through US lines. The order was given to fire. Several AAVs pounded it with a barrage of machinegun fire, riddling the windscreen with at least 20 holes. The driver was killed instantly. 

"The lorry swerved off the road and into a ditch. Rumor spread that the driver had been armed and had fired at the marines. I walked up to the lorry, but could find no trace of a weapon. This was the start of day that claimed many civilian casualties. 

???After the lorry a truck came down the road. Again the marines fired. Inside, four men were killed. They had been traveling with some 10 other civilians, mainly women and children who were evacuated, crying, their clothes splattered in blood. Hours later a dog belonging to the dead driver was still by his side[???]??? 

???[???]Two tanks and three AAVs were placed at the north end of the third bridge, their guns pointing down towards Nasiriya, and given orders to shoot at any vehicle that drove towards American positions. 

"Though civilians on foot passed by safely, the policy was to shoot anything that moved on wheels. Inevitably, terrified civilians drove at speed to escape: marines took that speed to be a threat and hit out. 

"During the night, our teeth on edge, we listened a dozen times as the AVVs' machineguns opened fire, cutting through cars and trucks like paper. 

???Next morning I saw the result of this order - the dead civilians, the little girl in the orange and gold dress. Suddenly, some of the young men who had crossed into Iraq with me reminded me now of their fathers' generation, the trigger-happy grunts of Vietnam. 

"Covered in the mud from the violent storms, they were drained and dangerously aggressive. 

???[???] Mike Brooks was one of the commanders who had given the order to shoot at civilian vehicles. It weighed on his mind, even though he felt he had no choice but to do everything to protect his marines from another ambush. 

"On Friday, making coffee in the dust, he told me he had been writing a diary, partly for his wife Kelly, a nurse at home in Jacksonville, North Carolina, with their sons Colin, 6, and four-year-old twins Brian and Evan. When he came to jotting down the incident about the two babies getting killed by his men he couldn't do it. 

"But he said he would tell her when he got home. I offered to let him call his wife on my satellite phone to tell her he was okay. He turned down the offer and had me write and send her an e-mail instead. He was too emotional. If she heard his voice, he said, she would know that something was wrong.??? 

Franchetti???s story is likely to unleash a storm of angry responses by working and young people from around the world. Creating a scandal of great proportions we hope will help to stop these crimes. 

It is absolutely clear that those who gave the orders around Nasariya are at risk of being indicted as war criminals. We hope that the indictment gets all the way to the top of the US military hierarchy. 

After all, George W. Bush, Colin Powell, Donald Rumsfeld and the US Armed Forces High Command are the ones who made these young Americans war criminals. 

Meanwhile, the US media continues to show the ???clean war??? waged by powerful empires against Iraq. Possibly, they are already at work manufacturing stories that would explain how these Marines did not have "any other choice" but shooting civilians.


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## OceanDude (May 16, 2004)

This had degraded into a spam alternative news posting board . I am withdrawing from the thread. Way to go RG.

OD


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

Sorry thought it was relevent. Human nature during wartime...besides no one was using it after gettin crunk

"I have worked over there extensively and I know how the game is played. Later in the night they will have TV newscasters showing the various Kings and heads of states making large donations to the Palestinians to cover their bases."OD

Thought this was really informative n thanks for sharing it. Sorry you'd rather turn your nose up now than continue to share you insights.


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## Little Wing (May 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Rob_NC *_
> Santa Claus, our beloved Christian icon, actually has Pagan roots.






> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> ^^ Actually Rob, Santa Claus and the elfs was a literary concept introduced by certain "other" religious groups to waterdown and trivialize the canonical legitimacy of Christmas as an emerging national movement and holiday. It was also a means to secularize and commercialize a Christian holy day to expand the market for merchants.
> 
> -OD


while you aren't here maybe you can visit these sites smart ass

Learn more about Matching Sites
Christmas Paganism and Peace in Bible Codes  - ... See also at Greater Things. Why I Believe in Santa by Ren Carter. ... Related Sites. Heathen Holidays - Documenting pagan roots of Christmas. ... 
http://www.greaterthings.com/Word-Number/Years/Christmas359/ 
Christmas and Easter are Pagan Holidays  - ... or shouldn't the roots of our worship be in the scriptures ... If you seek, you will find that these things are pagan also All over the world, Santa Claus is a ... 
http://www.greaterthings.com/JeanKellySharp/Christmas_Easter.htm 
[More results from www.greaterthings.com] 
Are Holidays like Christmas and Easter pagan or Christian?  - ... Santa has Eight Reindeer. ... Unfortunately, almost every holiday that is commonly celebrated can be traced to pagan roots, including the lowly Ground Hog day. ... 
http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/holidays2.htm 
[UA] Santa's Archetype  - ... The Santa Claus (or Father Christmas) motif has massive pagan overtones/roots. Especially when using the bloodthirsty Frazerian fertility myths. ... 
http://lists.unknown-armies.com/pipermail/ua/2003-December/000409.html 
Celebrating Winter Solstice  - ... share appreciation. Reclaim Santa Claus as a Pagan Godform. Today's Santa is a folk figure with multicultural roots. He embodies ... 
http://www.dragonflydream.com/Solstice.html 
5th Annual AntiChristMas Party  - ... 5 th ANNUAL ANTICHRISTMAS PARTY read the plans we have to celebrate this 'pagan party'. ... polaroids and a video courtesy of Calvin of Scarecrow Balcony Bad Santa! ... 
http://dogeatdogma.sed.ca/acparty2003.htm 
Beliefnet.com  - ... All of the following Christmas traditions have pagan roots, except ... A Pagan nativity scene might include ... Mother Donn, Father Math, and Baby Hu 2. Santa Claus, Mrs ... 
http://www.beliefnet.com/section/quiz/index.asp?sectionID=&surveyID=160 
Should Christians Celebrate Easter and Christmas?  - ... In your opinion do you think it is wrong to celebrate these holidays since they have their roots in pagan worship, or do ... What about Santa Clause? Answer: ... 
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/holidays.htm 
A History of the Celebration of Christmas  - ... America. They frowned upon the pagan roots of the tree custom. ... (Holy, Reindeer, and Colored Lights by Edna Barth.). Santa Claus. In ... 
http://www.new-life.net/chrtms15.htm 
Santa's Many Faces  - Santa's Many Faces: Shaman, Sailor, Saint. ... article. by Kathie Dawn. Pagan celebration of Winter Solstice is a tradition with its roots in the ancient past ... 
http://www.widdershins.org/vol6iss6/04.html


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## Stickboy (May 16, 2004)

I thought Macy's invented the "American" version of Santa Claus.


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## kuso (May 17, 2004)

Seems there will be a couple of eyebrow raising articles published over the next couple of days.


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## Big Smoothy (May 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Rob_NC *_
> Santa Claus, our beloved Christian icon, actually has Pagan roots.



The Easter Bunny is of pagan origin, also.

December 25th was chosen to be the day of Christian celebration because it was a Zoroastrian date in which bulls were sacrificed and their blood was drunk.  The Roman soldiers picked up many of these Zoroastrianist rituals while serving in Persia, and later brought them back to the Rome.

When you tell this to knowledgeable Christians, they usually run away, not wanting to listen, nor acknowledge it.  The ignorant ones, will simply state, "that's not true."


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## MXQdRacer (May 17, 2004)

I find it disturbing that some people are not supporting our troops any more than they do.......I am not condoning the killing of women and children in any means, but have you ever been in a situation where you have no clue who is on your side, and who isn't? I spent 4 years in the USAF as a  Aircrew Life Support Technician, and trainer to aircrew members, in the circumstances that they had been shot down, or any other type of emergency.  I was however fortunate enough to never be put in harms way, the way these Marines, soldiers, and Airmen are....I guess one thing I am trying to say is...Have a little respect, because if they didn't volunteer to be there, it might just be you....


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## Little Wing (May 17, 2004)

How do we get the equipment our soldiers need to them? Seems that might be the best thing we can do right now? Why don't they have this stuff already?


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## I Are Baboon (May 17, 2004)

Holy shit, I open this thread about an innocent American being brutally killed, and you people are discussing Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny!

*note to self:  Don't open this thread again*


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## Dale Mabry (May 17, 2004)

Boobies...


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## KillerAbz (May 17, 2004)

*My Naive Yet Overly Candid Response...*

This was/is something that hit me hard, in the heart.  I felt it.  I can't even begin to imagine nor grasp how anyone can do something like that, I just can't, and I KNOW the reason that I can't understand it is because I don't have the same mindset as those people, nor will I ever, and for that, I am so grateful.  All I can say is that I was scared to hear it, see it, see parts of it, even acknowledge that a human being could do something like that to another human being all in the name of... ... ... of anything.  My question I suppose is, what does it matter?  Even if I truly could not stand someone, even if someone pushed me down so hard, even if someone made me feel no bigger than a piece of broken up dirt underneath a worn shoe, I could never do something like to another human being - ever.  My heart is just to big.  

All I can say is I am so sorry...  I am so sorry that today, even with all of these advances in communication, that human nature still does things like this to prove points, or get attention, or seek understanding or answers...  I am so sorry that we as a species still, after all of this incredible advances in medicine, in philanthopy, in EXPRESSION, still use these tactics in solving problems or gaining redeption.  I am sorry because it is not one race, one creed, one religion, or one belief that is doing it... it is far greater than that, it is one SPECIES...  Human beings will always seeks to solve things through violence, and for that, I am saddened.  I am saddened because I as travel around and visit hospices and bring kids little Mickey's or little balloons, just go room to room and talk with them, just sit with them for a bit, that after I leave, I am still a part of a species that commits these acts...

I know many people have labeled me things from alien, to eccentric, strange, a hope, a light, you name it...  I have always loved being called an alien... in fact, I have made it an artform because the more you think about it, the more beautiful the notion of being some other form, some other type of creature, the more you can hope and pray that for however long you may be on this planet, your efforts will be from the heart and because you TRULY CARE and hope that some difference or some spots of sun can be shared amongst this continued darkness that continues to float overhead.


Again, I know this all sounds incredibly idealist, dreamy, almost silly coming from me, but again, I would rather be considered a dreamer or someone so naive to the "realities of this harsh world" and try my BEST to do some good, than not do anything at all and continue to watch and FEEL all of this pain that is happening... it's just to much, and it's just sad.  


My heart goes out TO EVERYONE... period...  


Things like this hurt me so much, but they hurt me even more when the voices of hope and compassion that ones were around in the past in leaders who fought against violence seemed to have been silenced in recent years because the voices of hatred through brutality have seemingly gotten even louder and louder...


Everyone can do something to help... no matter how small.  I won't preach, lord know I am far from anything perfect, but just go to a shelter today, maybe give that cat you see on the street everytime you pull up your car from work and give him a few pets, maybe bring out a little bowl of milk, or some little nibbles... I do, I know I do ALL I CAN IN MY POWER with what I have, even if right now it's seemingly nothing.


It's hard to find some time to be alone now, especially when this is the world we live in...  trust me, I am just like everyone else... 


I just pray ONE day maybe people will take to peace as they have taken to violence, and use that as the means to an end...   but, right now, it seems as if only ALIENS will ever truly make that a "reality"...


xojl
http://www.jamieleigh.net
Email:  jamieleighdotnet@hotmail.com
AIM:  xanAmericanGrrlx


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