# How does 5x5 routines gain mass if......



## Gulfcoastgorilla (Jan 11, 2012)

How does a 5x5 routine gain mass if hypertrophy(muscle growth in size) is from 8-12 reps. This is a widely accepted scientific fact. So in theory wouldn't a 5x5 routine be great for off season strength and power while a 5x8-12 routine be much better for actually hypertrophy. If I am wrong I would like to hear why from someone with know how. I have been on a 8-12 rep program and it has built me up to a very solid 230, but I wonder if I can take my body to a 245 at my 10% body fat. I could see going 5x5 for strength gains then having those strength gains boost my 10 rep program


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## vancouver (Jan 11, 2012)

StrongLifts 5x5: Ultimate Strength & Muscle Building Program | StrongLifts.com

some good info if you can look past the hype and BS.

Recent research has shown 7-8 reps X 4 sets is the sweet spot for someone who has training experience...


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## ThreeGigs (Jan 11, 2012)

5x5 gives you mass gains because it makes you stronger. And stronger muscles are larger muscles. Laws of physics and all.


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## Gazhole (Jan 12, 2012)

You can gain mass in pretty much any rep range. I don't buy into the so called "mass building range" of 8-12, because i refuse to believe that there's a significant different between 7 and 8 reps, or 12 and 13. Hell, even 6 and 8 reps are similar enough.

All you need to get bigger is a surplus of calories, and an increased training load over a long enough period of time to allow your body to grow. How you increase your training load is almost irrelevant because different people will respond better to different things, but the general principle works across the board.

Look at some of the best mass training programs out there:


- 20 Rep Squat program = increased squat load over 6 weeks, 1 set of 20 reps.

- Heavy Duty / HIT = Increase rep volume/load over 6-12 weeks, usually 1 set per exercise but ALWAYS increasing something.

- Doggcrapp = Similar to above. A huge part of DC training is logging your workouts and making sure you challenge yourself to beat those numbers every week. PROGRESSION!

- 5x5 = Increases the weight on the bar constantly throughout the training cycle.

- EDT = Increases training density every workout (work over time).


The list could go on really. Even typical no-thought bodybuilding routines stress the need to put more weight on the bar. This is what's really important rather than the rep range. So long as something is consistently progressing and improving over say 8 weeks and you're eating enough food to recover, you'll gain mass.


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## LAM (Jan 15, 2012)

the rep range of 8-12 is said to be optimum to stimulate hypertrophy because depending on the rep tempo the optimum time under tension per set is 45-60 secs with working loads at or around 85% of the 1RM.


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## SFW (Jan 15, 2012)

Low volume bores me me as a primary routine. Higher volume will always be more engaging for me. The theory is, if you have a higher percentage of low twitch, you'll gravitate towards powerlifting style lifts (low volume) over BBing's higher volume.


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## CowPimp (Jan 18, 2012)

8-12 rep sets are not necessarily considered optimal.  What is considered optimal is using weights between your 5-12RM.  This corresponds to about 70-85% of your 1RM.  Performing 5 sets of 5 using a flat weight for all work sets means you have to use about 80% of your 1RM.  This is right in that optimal range.

Furthermore, just because there is an optimal range doesn't mean that no hypertrophy can results from training outside of it.  The main problem with weights heavier than that is it is hard to accumulate enough volume to maximally stimulate hypertrophy, though you should still see some.  Training lighter than that will not likely result in significant amounts of hypertrophy unless you are completely new to resistance training, then as little as 40% of 1RM can stimulate hypertrophy.


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## CG (Jan 18, 2012)

CowPimp said:


> 8-12 rep sets are not necessarily considered optimal.  What is considered optimal is using weights between your 5-12RM.  This corresponds to about 70-85% of your 1RM.  Performing 5 sets of 5 using a flat weight for all work sets means you have to use about 80% of your 1RM.  This is right in that optimal range.
> 
> Furthermore, just because there is an optimal range doesn't mean that no hypertrophy can results from training outside of it.  The main problem with weights heavier than that is it is hard to accumulate enough volume to maximally stimulate hypertrophy, though you should still see some.  Training lighter than that will not likely result in significant amounts of hypertrophy unless you are completely new to resistance training, then as little as 40% of 1RM can stimulate hypertrophy.



Now that's a new concept for me... currently doing 5x5 with increasing weight each set.. based on this principle, I will gain more strength and size using the right weight for all 5 sets? Hmmm

How would one know when to add more weight?


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## brazey (Jan 18, 2012)

Gazhole said:


> You can gain mass in pretty much any rep range. I don't buy into the so called "mass building range" of 8-12, because i refuse to believe that there's a significant different between 7 and 8 reps, or 12 and 13. Hell, even 6 and 8 reps are similar enough.
> 
> All you need to get bigger is a surplus of calories, and an increased training load over a long enough period of time to allow your body to grow. How you increase your training load is almost irrelevant because different people will respond better to different things, but the general principle works across the board.
> 
> ...


 
I agree completely with this post. I???m not sure if the OP is looking for evidence (scientific or otherwise) to determine the best course to follow. But because we are all so different physically & mentally; and have varied perceptions of hard work, eating & resting; it is difficult to pin down the best routine for someone. Doing a 5X5 in the "off season" and then going back to 8-12 sounds like a great idea to me. The OP has made good gains on 8-12 and should get the feel for heavier weights on the 5X5 that should help increase his weights in the 8-12. So stay with what you like as long as the gains keep coming and don???t be too concerned with theory.  

I believe the reason there are so many training systems is because they all work to an extent. We all know that the _perfect_ routine for one will not be the _best_, or even a good routine for another. Everyone has to find what works best for themselves and that's usually through trial & error. Any good routine will have to be enjoyable to the trainee, have some sort of progression and be worked over a long period of time. As long as one does more reps, or more sets, or uses more resistance while working as hard as possible with proper form, he's using a good routine. The best routine is the one you have the most fun doing and can see the greatest achievements of your goals. Experimenting is all part of the journey.


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## RockShawn (Jan 18, 2012)

Cgrant said:


> Now that's a new concept for me... currently doing 5x5 with increasing weight each set.. based on this principle, I will gain more strength and size using the right weight for all 5 sets? Hmmm
> 
> How would one know when to add more weight?



Go up on weight when you easily lift out of the rep range. You should fail at the top of the rep range you are working. if 5x5 then failure should occur at 5 reps meaning you can't physically do another rep.


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## CowPimp (Jan 19, 2012)

Cgrant said:


> Now that's a new concept for me... currently doing 5x5 with increasing weight each set.. based on this principle, I will gain more strength and size using the right weight for all 5 sets? Hmmm
> 
> How would one know when to add more weight?



It depends on the increments at which you increase.  In theory, using the same weight for all 5 sets would be more hypertrophy-oriented than increasing intensity as you move through the 5 sets.  This is because you do a greater volume of work in the optimal hypertrophy range.  

By the same token, increasing the weight each set will allow you to use a higher weight on your last 1-2 sets.  So, you will be performing work at a higher overall intensity (You can use your 5RM instead of ~8RM), which should be superior for strength gains.

In practice, I doubt there is a really dramatic difference, though there is probably some.  Also, the 5x5 programs I have seen incorporate both types of loading parameters: cumulative fatigue (Flat weight for all sets) and the pyramid (Start light and increasing weight as the sets progress).  I think both have their place, such is the magic of periodization.


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## Tomekkplk (Jan 22, 2012)

Gazhole said:


> You can gain mass in pretty much any rep range. I don't buy into the so called "mass building range" of 8-12, because i refuse to believe that there's a significant different between 7 and 8 reps, or 12 and 13. Hell, even 6 and 8 reps are similar enough.
> 
> All you need to get bigger is a surplus of calories, and an increased training load over a long enough period of time to allow your body to grow. How you increase your training load is almost irrelevant because different people will respond better to different things, but the general principle works across the board.
> 
> ...



Haven't see anything closer to the truth than this man, great post


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## CG (Jan 23, 2012)

CowPimp said:


> It depends on the increments at which you increase.  In theory, using the same weight for all 5 sets would be more hypertrophy-oriented than increasing intensity as you move through the 5 sets.  This is because you do a greater volume of work in the optimal hypertrophy range.
> 
> By the same token, increasing the weight each set will allow you to use a higher weight on your last 1-2 sets.  So, you will be performing work at a higher overall intensity (You can use your 5RM instead of ~8RM), which should be superior for strength gains.
> 
> In practice, I doubt there is a really dramatic difference, though there is probably some.  Also, the 5x5 programs I have seen incorporate both types of loading parameters: cumulative fatigue (Flat weight for all sets) and the pyramid (Start light and increasing weight as the sets progress).  I think both have their place, such is the magic of periodization.



Its kind of funny to see how things work out with this, I had been doing db bench, adding 5lb per db per set. 
Last week, I tried increasing by 10 every 2 sets (70, 80,80,90,90). Needless to say, it felt MUCH different, still feeling it in the chest, and discovered some new strength. My 4th set was more difficult than my 5th. 

I think this week I will go straight sets, and next week back to the original pyramid. Further, I need to do a month's woth of research into periodization lol.

Another issu is the mental debate of hypertrophy vs overall strength, what is more important...I can't decide


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## Dath (Jan 23, 2012)

Gazhole said:


> You can gain mass in pretty much any rep range. I don't buy into the so called "mass building range" of 8-12, because i refuse to believe that there's a significant different between 7 and 8 reps, or 12 and 13. Hell, even 6 and 8 reps are similar enough.
> 
> All you need to get bigger is a surplus of calories, and an increased training load over a long enough period of time to allow your body to grow. How you increase your training load is almost irrelevant because different people will respond better to different things, but the general principle works across the board.
> 
> ...




ABsoultely solid explanation and advice right here.


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## CowPimp (Jan 23, 2012)

I just wanted to point out that in Gazhole's post, every single one of those programs utilizes the optimal hypertrophy intensity zone.  Even the 20 rep squats program calls for using your 10RM, and doing breathing squats for the remaining repetitions.  Again, this doesn't mean that you can't produce hypertrophy by lifting somewhat heavier or lighter than your 5-12RM, but there are practical limits.  

If you sit there doing 1-3RMs for your whole workout, you'll fatigue before you accumulate enough volume to maximally stimulate hypertrophy.  Conversely, if you use weights that are too light, it will eventually turn into something aerobic.  Running and walking are resistance training in a very literal sense of the phrase, but the resistance isn't enough to stimulate hypertrophy, no matter how much volume you use.

Training age, as stated before, is another important training variable.  Very deconditioned individuals, or just average Joe's new to resistance training can get a hypertrophy stimulus from much lighter weights.  More seasoned veterans are mostly wasting their time if they go much lighter than 70% 1RM.  The minimum threshold necessary to stimulate hypertrophy goes up with training age, but goes down as you become deconditioned.

With that said, Gaz's message of progressive overload should be taken seriously.  I don't care if you're lifting in your optimal range if you don't attempt some form of progression.  Progression is the most important element in ANY type of exercise program where you want to see performance improvement.  You will see better results using your 15RM combined with proper progression than using your 8RM without ever attempting to progress.


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## Tomekkplk (Jan 23, 2012)

I've heard 3x3 even, idk.. so much new crap in the lifting world these days, anything is possible


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## Gissurjon (Jan 23, 2012)

CowPimp said:


> I just wanted to point out that in Gazhole's post, every single one of those programs utilizes the optimal hypertrophy intensity zone.  Even the 20 rep squats program calls for using your 10RM, and doing breathing squats for the remaining repetitions.  Again, this doesn't mean that you can't produce hypertrophy by lifting somewhat heavier or lighter than your 5-12RM, but there are practical limits.
> 
> If you sit there doing 1-3RMs for your whole workout, you'll fatigue before you accumulate enough volume to maximally stimulate hypertrophy.  Conversely, if you use weights that are too light, it will eventually turn into something aerobic.  Running and walking are resistance training in a very literal sense of the phrase, but the resistance isn't enough to stimulate hypertrophy, no matter how much volume you use.
> 
> ...



What about programs such as 10x10, where you have 4 sec. eccentric phase? Surely one would have to use considerably less weight than one's 85% 1RM..


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## bjg (Jan 23, 2012)

when a muscle contracts depending on individuals , not all the fibers contract at once , muscle fibers are stimulated by neurons to contract and they are not stimulated all at once within the same muscle. Contraction starts with a group of fibers then  As this group of fibers gets tired(not enough nutrients to continue maximum contraction) other fibers come into play until all the fibers are used. Of course it all depends on weight (load) and duration. Also a single group of fibers working together does not mean that the fibers within this group are all next to each other.
Low reps will not allow enough time for all the fibers to be used. 
this is why 8-12 reps is a good compromise between load and duration.
When you train with low reps you improve your short duration strength but not all the fibers are being used. If you keep training for strength (low reps heavy load) the same fibers that are being used all the time , will multiply and you will have more fibers that will be used instantly for low reps ( you increase the size of the group of fibers being always used) . Also as you keep training low reps other fibers will add on to the usual fibers being used as your nervous system will be trained to stimulate more fibers together. And with time and training low reps more and more fibers will come to play during these low reps to a point where adding 2 more reps will make you hit all the fibers. That is why a well trained weightlifter or bodybuilder with many years of lifting heavy does not need many reps to use up all the fibers within a muscle, and the 8-12 range may be reduced to 6-10 reps.


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## CowPimp (Jan 23, 2012)

Gissurjon said:


> What about programs such as 10x10, where you have 4 sec. eccentric phase? Surely one would have to use considerably less weight than one's 85% 1RM..



Again, the minimum that is considered optimal for hypertrophy is about 70%, which is your 12RM.  Doing 10x10 certainly involves using a resistance outside of that range.  However, that is an "optimal" range.  It doesn't mean, once again, that intensities outside the 70-85% range are incapable of producing hypertrophy.  In the case of 10x10, you are making up for the fact that the weight is a little lighter than the optimal range by doing a ton of volume.

I think it is useful to go outside this optimal range because it results in fatigue of different types of muscle fibers, which do have SOME potential for hypertrophy.  However, most of the potential for hypertrophy lies in the type II muscle fibers.


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## Gazhole (Jan 23, 2012)

I mean, i've grown on programs using heavy triples, doubles, and singles. I've grown MORE on programs like the one i'm doing now which uses volume and that optimal intensity zone CP is talking about.

I'm doing a mix of 1-5 reps (but not at maximal intensities for those rep ranges), all-out rep sets (10-25 reps), some things between 8-12 reps, some things are maximal intensity 5 rep sets, some things are sets of 20-40 reps. Some things use techniques like rest pause.

Most things are within that 70-85% range, but some arent. EVERYTHING is progressing, though, and i'm using enough volume and/or intensity techniques on the other stuff to stimulate hypertrophy through a stimulus i haven't used very often having recently coming off a strength phase.


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## poohiron (Jan 29, 2012)

Gulfcoastgorilla said:


> How does a 5x5 routine gain mass if hypertrophy(muscle growth in size) is from 8-12 reps. This is a widely accepted scientific fact. So in theory wouldn't a 5x5 routine be great for off season strength and power while a 5x8-12 routine be much better for actually hypertrophy. If I am wrong I would like to hear why from someone with know how. I have been on a 8-12 rep program and it has built me up to a very solid 230, but I wonder if I can take my body to a 245 at my 10% body fat. I could see going 5x5 for strength gains then having those strength gains boost my 10 rep program


 
If subscribe to the energetic theory of hypertrophy, the mass of proteins catabolized during heavy resistence training can be seen as the product of the rate of protein breakdown and the number of lifts. When the resistance is very large (1RM), the rate of protein breakdown is high but the number of repetitions is small. With higher RM lifts the breakdown is greater The rate of protein degradation is a function of the weight lifted.

A chart from the Science and Practice of Strength Training illustrates this.

RM       Rate of protein degrad   Mech work (reps)     Tot Amt of prot degrad
1              High                           Small                         Small
5-10        Average                    Average                        Large
>25          Low                         Large                           Small

So to be specific staying in a 5-15 rep range with occasional drops to 1-4RM would facilitate your goals for bodybuilding.


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