# HMB and it's effects when combined with other ingredients



## soxmuscle (May 27, 2008)

Built said:


> Chris,
> 
> Just to clarify - although it has been established that HMB does nothing on its own (hence, why you don't sell it as a stand-alone), it has a positive, interactive effect when combined as you have done with the other ingredients (creatine, dextrose, and BA) in your product?



Does anybody know the answer to this?


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## Arnold (May 27, 2008)

Not really, but where was it established that HMB does nothing on it's own? My take on HMB has always been it's just not cost effective to use for most people, e.g. it's very expensive to produce and a high amount is needed for anabolic effects.


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## soxmuscle (May 27, 2008)

At Large Nutrition's owner has stated on numerous occasions that HMB doesn't do anything on it's own, thus why he doesn't sell HMB by itself.


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## Arnold (May 27, 2008)

rather than continuing to post slanderous remarks like you just did, why don't you do some research yourself and report back here, thus be helpful and constructive here rather than an ass.


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## soxmuscle (May 27, 2008)

...that's my point.

All the research points out that HMB is an overpriced, unnecessary supplement regardless of what it's combined with.


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## Arnold (May 27, 2008)

maybe, but can't you say the same about a lot of supplements, how many are really necessary?


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## Built (May 28, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> At Large Nutrition's owner has stated on numerous occasions that HMB doesn't do anything on it's own, thus why he doesn't sell HMB by itself.





Prince said:


> rather than continuing to post slanderous remarks like you just did, why don't you do some research yourself and report back here, thus be helpful and constructive here rather than an ass.



Actually, this is just a statement of fact. Slander, like libel, is a form of defamation - a falsehood that causes harm to the individual. Stating a truth, harmful or not, is not defamation: Mr. Mason has suggested that the HMB may have no effect on its own - in fact, it is why At Large does not sell HMB on its own:



chris mason said:


> One point being sorely missed by the "twits" is that HMB is part of a total formula which makes said formula better.  As someone who formulates products, I think it incumbent upon me to create the best product I can within reasonable cost parameters.  That is EXACTLY why I included HMB.  You will note that I do not offer HMB by itself.



First, some background: nni had earlier posted a brief analysis of some of the articles Chris Mason posted up in support of HMB's inclusion in Results:


nni said:


> Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate on aer...[Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2007] - PubMed Result
> 
> Regarding body composition, there were no significant differences.
> 
> ...





chris mason said:


> I posted what I did to show an alternative to your opinion.
> 
> Next, you are entitled to your opinion, but that does not preclude the fact RESULTS works exceptionally well and HMB is an integral component in the product.
> 
> ...



Chris Mason's argument hinges upon his assertion that HMB works differently - better - when combined with the other ingredients in his product (80g of sugar, 5g creatine monohydrate, 3.5g beta alanine, 3g HMB) than HMB does alone. 

This is what is called an interaction. Chris Mason is suggesting that HMB may work by itself, or it may not - but that when combined with the other ingredients in Results, it adds value. 

*For example, suppose the following:*
3g of HMB on its own increases some performance metric by A% 
(where A is greater than or equal to zero)

80g of dextrose, 5g of creatine and 3.5g of B-A increase said metric by B%
(where B is greater than zero, without a doubt. Creatine's worth has been established, creatine does indeed work better with dextrose, B-A has measureable benefit)

Chris Mason's assertion is that the combination of 80g dextrose, 5g of creatine and 3.5g of B-A, when consumed with 3g of HMB, increases the performance metric by something larger than (A+B)%

Note that this is what "positive interaction" means.​
The problem with this assertion is that there is no known mechanism through which this synergy could exist:


nni said:


> the second study is with creatine, and through the mechanisms in which creatine, beta alanine and hmb work there really is no synergy. creatine is effective as is beta alanine, as are carbs.  there is synergy between carbs and creatine, but the others work on their own. point is if a study shows hmb doesnt work on its own, adding the above isnt going to change that imo. but, take out the hmb and half the carbs and results looks good to me, add in 7grams of eaa's and i would make it a staple.





chris mason said:


> ...whether or not HMB works by itself is something that is open to argument based upon various studies.  I feel that it does, but could agree to disagree on that point. Now, IF you were correct and it did not work by itself that in no way indicates what it would do in concert with other ingredients and to make assumptions about it, especially when they fly in the face of empirical evidence, is just poor science.
> Chris



Summarizing, Chris Mason believes that HMB, even if it has no effect on its own in trained athletes, has a positive effect on these individuals when consumed as part of the Results cocktail. Problem is, there is no scientific evidence that this is possible. 

From what I've read, there are exactly two possibilities here:

HMB has little or no ergogenic benefit to trained athletes, and therefore adds no value when 3 grams of it are consumed with 80g of dextrose, 5g of creatine and 3.5g of B-A
HMB has a positive effect on these individuals on its own, and this value is additive upon the ergogenic benefits of consuming 80g of dextrose, 5g of creatine and 3.5g of B-A

Chris is suggesting a third possibility:

    3. Even if HMB is of little or no benefit to trained athletes, it adds value when 3g of HMB are consumed with 80g of dextrose, 5g of creatine and 3.5g of B-A.


There is no evidence of this. The mechanisms through which this could happen don't exist. This was brought up by nni:


nni said:


> im not worried about losing face, and feel confident in what i have offered. hmb is not new, it is not a giant mystery to understand how it works, and the other ingredients are not new. they work on their own towards a common goal, but no research has shown that creatine enhances BA, or ba enhances hmb etc...



Mr. Mason responded that there is evidence of HMB's additive effect with the dextrose, creatine and B-A:



chris mason said:


> Oh, and I forgot to mention you assertation about no research showing BA and creatine, or HMB and creatine having additive effects exists is wrong.  There IS research which shows exactly that.



If HMB has an effect, its effect WOULD be additive since there is no known mechanism through which its effect could be interactive with dextrose, creatine and B-A, a point brought up by nni earlier and which is borne out in the research.
*
So it all comes down to this:*

Either HMB has an effect that is good enough ON ITS OWN to be worth being the most expensive part of Results, 
or it doesn't.

Discuss...


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## soxmuscle (May 28, 2008)

Prince said:


> maybe, but can't you say the same about a lot of supplements, how many are really necessary?



Creatine is necessary.  Creatine taken with dextrose post-workout is necessary.  HMB and Beta alanine (especially in the small dose that Results has to offer) aren't necessary, but they can be jammed down peoples throats and made to look like a "new, revolutionary" supplement simply because not many people know much about either of the two.

It should also be noted that this is a horrible point.  Just because there are a plethora of bad/unnecessary supplements, At Large Nutrition should be left unaccountable?


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## Arnold (May 28, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> It should also be noted that this is a horrible point.  Just because there are a plethora of bad/unnecessary supplements, At Large Nutrition should be left unaccountable?



are they breaking a law? if what they are doing is so bad in your opinion don't buy their products, and report them to the FDA for false claims, just be sure you report every other supplement company along with them.


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## soxmuscle (May 28, 2008)

Built said:


> *So it all comes down to this:*
> Either HMB has an effect that is good enough ON ITS OWN to be worth being the most expensive part of Results,
> or it doesn't.
> Discuss...



Great post, Built.

I think we all know the answer here


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## soxmuscle (May 28, 2008)

Prince said:


> are they breaking a law? if what they are doing is so bad in your opinion don't buy their products, and report them to the FDA for false claims, just be sure you report every other supplement company along with them.



I could tell a girl my semen would make her tits bigger and end up getting a lot more action because of it.  Not only is that wrong though, it's downright sickening IMO.  I understand the Supplement industry is a complete quackery of a business, but I certainly don't agree with it which is why I've been so outspoken about some of these fraud companies such as ALN, Muscle Tech and BSN.


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## Arnold (May 28, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> Great post, Built.
> 
> I think we all know the answer here



then why are we discussing it?

check out the claims being about this product:
Anabolic-Matrix Rx - Maximize Natural Testosterone Levels

I don't know of any real world studies performed to support them.


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## ZECH (May 28, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> Creatine is necessary.



It is? Since when? It's not any more necessary than steriods are. If you want to get a benefit from it, sure, take it. But it is not necessary to lifting weights and I'm sure there are many people that don't take it. I just recently started taking it again after not taking it for several years.


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## TexanTA1996 (May 28, 2008)

I don't think he's going to be interested in discussing it because deep down, I think he knows what the deal is.  Nobody is that stupid.  There was a time when cigarette executives denied that smoking was bad for you, this is sort of the same deal.  They know, but won't admit it.


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## ZECH (May 28, 2008)

FWIW, I used HMB about 6 yrs ago at high doses. To me it done a great job. I seemed to retain more lean muscle when on it and looked better overall. But like Prince said for the money and the dose I was taking, it was not beneficial to me for the money I was spending. But to say it does not work I don't think is totally true. And I was in my late 30's at the time so maybe that had something to do with it as well.


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## Arnold (May 28, 2008)

I guess we could start discussing the claims that almost every company uses to sell and market their products, whether it be toothpaste that supposedly whitens teeth, to motor oil that makes your engine last longer, if you believe it buy it, if not as a consumer you hold the ultimate power to not buy a product.


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## ZECH (May 28, 2008)

Prince said:


> Not really, but where was it established that HMB does nothing on it's own?



I agree..........for everyone knocking it, lets see some studies that show this?


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## ZECH (May 28, 2008)

Advertising is general is very powerful.


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## quark (May 28, 2008)

dg806 said:


> FWIW, I used HMB about 6 yrs ago at high doses. To me it done a great job.



* dg *what do you define as 'high doses'? I am always interested in real world experiences.


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## soxmuscle (May 28, 2008)

Prince said:


> then why are we discussing it?
> 
> check out the claims being about this product:
> Anabolic-Matrix Rx - Maximize Natural Testosterone Levels
> ...



Well, to prove a point of course.



> *Anabolic-Matrix Rxâ???¢ contains the highest quality herbal extracts and ingredients available. The Tribulus Terrestris in our formula contains a minimum of 20% Protodioscin, the active ingredient that raises LH (Leutenizing Hormone) levels. Most Tribulus based supplements on the market do not contain a high quality Tribulus extract and will do absolutely nothing!*
> 
> Our formula is all natural and completely unique combining high amounts of Tribulus Terrestris (40% extract), Tongkat Ali (20:1 extract), Diindolemethane, 5,7-Dihydroxyflavone, Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and Bioperine??®, and has been shown to *naturally* increase Testosterone levels up to 150%!


These are the claims made by you and your company, Prince.  I believe that you guys used the highest quality herbal extracts/ingredients available.  I believe that your Tribulus Terrestris formula contains a minimum of 20% Protodioscin.. Sure, you sugar coat things, but that's not what frustrates me.

Make outrageous claims and I'm sure I'd be on your ass as much as I am on ALN's


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## soxmuscle (May 28, 2008)

dg806 said:


> It is? Since when? It's not any more necessary than steriods are. If you want to get a benefit from it, sure, take it. But it is not necessary to lifting weights and I'm sure there are many people that don't take it. I just recently started taking it again after not taking it for several years.




By that logic, no supplements are necessary.

I truly believe without Glucosamine, my shoulder would still be healing right now.

I truly believe the reason I haven't been sick over the last 4-5 years (outside of a common cold) is because of the multi-vitamins I take.

etc.

Creatine is a proven supplement.  HMB has been proven to be ineffective unless taken in high doses as you mention later on in this thread.

Apples to oranges.


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## soxmuscle (May 28, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> I don't think he's going to be interested in discussing it because deep down, I think he knows what the deal is.  Nobody is that stupid.  There was a time when cigarette executives denied that smoking was bad for you, this is sort of the same deal.  They know, but won't admit it.



Like I said, the supplement industry is a complete scam of a business.  A quackery business if you will.  People are that stupid, it's unfortunate.


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## TexanTA1996 (May 28, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> Like I said, the supplement industry is a complete scam of a business.  A quackery business if you will.  People are that stupid, it's unfortunate.



I completely agree.  All these expensive supplements exist because the world is full of idiots that will buy them.  Sponsorship is the second part.  Give it to a bunch of people who are using steroids and you convince that same population of stupid people that this overpriced product is what caused their physique or strength, they buy it hook line and sinker.


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## Built (May 28, 2008)

Getting back to the discussion - I personally have no problem with a supplement being sold without strong evidence of its efficacy. This does not mean I will PURCHASE it, but if there is a demand for a product with only anecdotal evidence of efficacy - ie that has not tested well clinically - as long as the marketing claims stick to the facts, I'm cool.

For example, the test booster mentioned above: trib has never been shown to increase test levels in humans. This does not mean it doesn't - merely that there is no clinical evidence to the contrary. This is not the case with DHEA, which HAS been shown to increase test. There are also many plant substances which have been shown to inhibit aromatase, further increasing the available pool of free testosterone by preventing a little more of it from aromatizing into estrogen. Furthermore, increasing endogenous levels from baseline to baseline plus a half is not a far-fetched claim. The mechanisms are there within at least some of the ingredients in this product, and the addition of tribulus - a substance that at least anecdotally increases libido in older man, and which at the very least is safe when consumed in these amounts - does not add much to the overall cost of the product.

Back to the discussion.


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## ZECH (May 28, 2008)

No I was just saying it was not necessary.
Sure I think it works, but you don't have to have it.



soxmuscle said:


> By that logic, no supplements are necessary.
> 
> I truly believe without Glucosamine, my shoulder would still be healing right now.
> 
> ...


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## ZECH (May 28, 2008)

jchappj said:


> * dg *what do you define as 'high doses'? I am always interested in real world experiences.



I think I had gotten up to around 9g per day


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## chris mason (May 28, 2008)

I never said HMB does not work alone.  I said that I do not sell it as a singular product.  

Next, for anyone to say all of the studies show HMB is not effective absolutely proves that individual should be ignored as they are making statements which have no basis in reality or fact. 

Built, you too speak out of your ass rather often and try to hide behind the guise of "science" when doing so.  There ARE studies which show HMB and creatine to have additive effects.  In fact, Dr. Volek, who you claim to so love, was involved in one such study.


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## Built (May 28, 2008)

chris mason said:


> I never said HMB does not work alone.  I said that I do not sell it as a singular product.


You said that it may or it  may not - that you would agree to disagree on that point - but that it works in combination with the other ingredients in your product.

This isn't the same as saying its effect is additive - this is saying its effect is INTERACTIVE. 



chris mason said:


> Next, for anyone to say all of the studies show HMB is not effective absolutely proves that individual should be ignored as they are making statements which have no basis in reality or fact.
> 
> Built, you too speak out of your ass rather often and try to hide behind the guise of "science" when doing so.  There ARE studies which show HMB and creatine to have additive effects.  In fact, Dr. Volek, who you claim to so love, was involved in one such study.



Can you stop for just a moment and examine what you just said to me, Chris? 

You said Volek supports that the effect of HMB with creatine is ADDITIVE. 

I agree 100%. Read everything I posted in this thread, carefully this time. 

Volek says ADDITIVE.
I say ADDITIVE.

You suggested that even if it didn't work by itself (and you feel that it does, I'll give you that), it works IN COMBINATION with creatine, dextrose and B-A.

That's not an ADDITIVE effect. That's an INTERACTIVE effect. 

Do you see the difference now?


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## soxmuscle (May 28, 2008)

You present things so clearly, Built.  You should look into teaching kin-dee-garden...


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## Built (May 28, 2008)

Thanks Sox. 

I taught Algebra, Calculus and Statistics for a long time - I'm used to explaining nuances to people who are having a hard time grasping logical concepts.


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## chris mason (May 28, 2008)

Built said:


> You said that it may or it may not - that you would agree to disagree on that point - but that it works in combination with the other ingredients in your product.
> 
> This isn't the same as saying its effect is additive - this is saying its effect is INTERACTIVE.
> 
> ...


 
Built, I said what I said based upon the fact the individual, much like you (not necessarily in this thread), was making statements based upon presumptions.  

I believe HMB to have an additive effect and POSSIBLY an interactive one in RESULTS.  I believe HMB works on its own, but I am not interested in selling it by itself at this time.


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## chris mason (May 28, 2008)

Built said:


> Thanks Sox.
> 
> I taught Algebra, Calculus and Statistics for a long time - I'm used to explaining nuances to people who are having a hard time grasping logical concepts.


 
Lol, you are also evidently used to being overly confident in your position on matters.  If you truly had a scientific mind you would not make the arguments that you do.


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## Built (May 28, 2008)

chris mason said:


> I believe HMB to have an additive effect and POSSIBLY an interactive one in RESULTS.  I believe HMB works on its own, but I am not interested in selling it by itself at this time.



There we go. That was what I was looking for, and thank you Chris, for that. I shall clarify my present stance, since you've graciously done the same. 

The title of this thread is "HMB and it's effects when combined with other ingredients".  

With regard to *well-trained *athletes, I am not convinced HMB "works", and I am not convinced it does not work. As far as I am aware, At Large did not pilot a "HMB-only" supplement on any of its sponsored athletes, so this remains an unknown, and I'm satisfied to leave it there. I will neither agree nor disagree with you, Chris, on its efficacy as a stand-alone supplement. I have not tried it, you did not test it that way, and we simply do not know for certain. You do not sell it on its own, so this is not a real concern to us at this time. 

There is evidence that it does have some benefit in certain cases (untrained/detrained adults for example ), and it appears to be safe. 

When combining two or more treatments, there are main effects and there are interactive effects. The interactive effects may either add to or detract from (ie partially "cancel out")  the main effect.

Let's suppose for the sake of argument that HMB on its own has some measurable main effect. If this were true, then an ADDITIVE effect would imply that no matter what else you are taking, HMB will add the same metric of improvement. 

*For example:*
Suppose a 3g dose of HMB increases your performance by "A".
Further, let's suppose 80g of dextrose, 3.5g of B-A and 5g of micronized creatine monohydrate increases your performance by "B"

If those effects are ADDITIVE, then a daily dose of Results will increase your performance by "A + B"

If those effects are INTERACTIVE (lets only consider positive interaction for this example), then a daily dose of Results will increase your performance by "A + B + AB", where "AB" is some non-zero interaction effect.

If indeed there is an interactive effect, there has to be a physiological mechanism through which this can occur. The problem is, there does not appear to be any such mechanism.

Do you have something to support this?


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## ZECH (May 28, 2008)

mechanisms of action...............now we are getting into a whole different ballgame.


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## chris mason (May 28, 2008)

Built said:


> There we go. That was what I was looking for, and thank you Chris, for that. I shall clarify my present stance, since you've graciously done the same.
> 
> The title of this thread is "HMB and it's effects when combined with other ingredients".
> 
> ...


 
To support my statement "may"?  I used the word because the only evidence I have of an interactive effect is empirical.  

Lol, you know, I was speaking to Jeff on the phone today and he himself mentioned there is a lot of crap that needs to be sorted through even in the scientific community when it comes to supplements.  The best evidence I can give you that RESULTS works is to tell you to try it for yourself.  Quit whining about the dextrose and give it a run.  You can then comment intelligently on what you feel it has done for you.  The same could be said for those few people (TX, sox, and aussie) on this site that want to bash the product.  They can bash away, but unless they have used it themselves it is baseless bashing especially considering virtually everyone who has used it LOVES the product.  Westside Barbell wants more of it than I can afford to give them on a monthly basis.  What do you think that says?   

Anyway, try it, or don't.  We will both be missing out if you don't...


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## Duncans Donuts (May 28, 2008)

Isn't science lovely?  The benefit of scientific linearities like logic, math, and Newtonian physics is the satisfaction we get from proofs.  Applying this kind of "truth" to a supplement, the interactions the supplement has within a human being, and whether there is an effect and the degree of that effect.

To really recognize benefits that hinge themselves on exercise stimulus, you have to wonder a lot of things about the people being tested: their nutritional outlook, natural stress level, training protocols, rest times, genetic potential.  And don't give me that "average" crap, either, because modification of one in hundreds of variances or "overlooking" from the case Doctor can skew results.  We need to be very careful in evaluating experiments that are related to human biology and the effects made on it from chemicals.

As far as averages go, throwing two darts: one 5 inches to the left of the bullseye, and 5 inches to the right of the bullseye garners an average of a perfect hit.

I'm not an alarmist or anti-experiment, either.  There has been some very valuable and good work done and published in journals.  That said there is also a lot of shit, and reading the conclusions, despite being easy and convenient, will sometimes lead you into believing the wrong thing.  Back in the 70s (i think) many Doctors held the position that anabolic steroids did nothing - and published to that effect, a clear expression of their bias - despite the overwhelming reality that was contrary.

The thing to remember here is that our bodies operate on sophisticated mechanical principles.  Gene transcription, expression, receptor sensitivity, nutrition absorption efficiency, etc. will vary wildly from person to person.  And those are the inherent factors, not including the environmental ones!  What you eat, how you train, how much you sleep, how much you work, and the like.  

And, as anecdotal and unscientific as it sounds, the best way to figure out if a supplement is hype or helpful will depend largely on you.  I've seen people who have taken creatine, gone insane with overestimating their recover ability, and dropped weight at the end of the cycle as well as having lost several pounds after.  

Of course, the fact that there is evidence it works whether additive or interactive or stand alone should warrant a personal experiment with it.  At least wait to know before you slander it, yeah?


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## Built (May 28, 2008)

I haven't actually ever bashed your product, Chris. 

I can't handle the dextrose and requested a sugar free version, and I questioned the validity of the claims made by yourself and your sponsored athletes, but I haven't said that HMB doesn't work. 

I only ever said I don't know.

And asked for something - ANYTHING - that would back up YOUR claims that your product:

Has anabolic-like protective properties while cutting (half as effective, in your experience)
Will produce better results than a protein supplement
Works better than the same combination of ingredients sans HMB
Would work almost as well without the 80 grams of dextrose, even though you aren't selling it.

I can't take your product with the dextrose, Chris. I got off Metformin by changing my diet, and losing weight, but I'm still waaaaay too insulin resistant to consume that much sugar. It will make me ill.


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## chris mason (May 29, 2008)

Duncans Donuts said:


> Isn't science lovely? The benefit of scientific linearities like logic, math, and Newtonian physics is the satisfaction we get from proofs. Applying this kind of "truth" to a supplement, the interactions the supplement has within a human being, and whether there is an effect and the degree of that effect.
> 
> To really recognize benefits that hinge themselves on exercise stimulus, you have to wonder a lot of things about the people being tested: their nutritional outlook, natural stress level, training protocols, rest times, genetic potential. And don't give me that "average" crap, either, because modification of one in hundreds of variances or "overlooking" from the case Doctor can skew results. We need to be very careful in evaluating experiments that are related to human biology and the effects made on it from chemicals.
> 
> ...


 
Well said!


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## TexanTA1996 (May 29, 2008)

A dextrose free version isn't offered because dextrose and creatine are the only two things in the supplement that are worth spending money on.  It may be overpriced, but at least it has *some* ingredients that "work".  Take those two away and you have nothing left.


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## quark (May 29, 2008)

This thread is becoming a do loop. That comment is only fanning embers and is totally your opinion.


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## TexanTA1996 (May 29, 2008)

jchappj said:


> This thread is becoming a do loop. That comment is only fanning embers and is totally your opinion.



lol, The theory of evolution is also an "opinion"-what's your point?  That opinion is overwhelmingly supported by the science and most of the people in that particular industry.  We still haven't seen a _good study _that shows HMB has significant impact on _trained individuals_, why in the hell do you think that is?


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## chris mason (May 29, 2008)

Built said:


> I haven't actually ever bashed your product, Chris.
> 
> I can't handle the dextrose and requested a sugar free version, and I questioned the validity of the claims made by yourself and your sponsored athletes, but I haven't said that HMB doesn't work.
> 
> ...


 
Built, you HAVE bashed the product and you have turned a blind eye to any and all evidence I have provided (including studies).  The fact you don't recognize that makes me think there are other issues at hand.

In any event, you seem to not tire of the same old stuff, but I am tired.  You have expressed your opinion over and over.  I am not sure why you are compelled to keep repeating yourself.  Your perseveration on the matter may seem appropriate to you, but it really isn't.

If you feel you cannot use the product then I think it best you comment no further.  AGAIN, you have stated your opinion, no need to keep repeating it.


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## Built (May 29, 2008)

Show me where I've bashed your product.


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## nni (May 29, 2008)

she can have an opinion and not try the product. trying the product isnt the end all be all, there is plenty of real world feedback on the ingredients and more than enough science to base an opinion without ever ingesting the product. i know you guys have a bit of a history from other boards, but simply dismissing her and saying try the product doesnt really prove anything.


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## lucifuge (May 29, 2008)

this is just getting silly now...


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## Built (May 29, 2008)

It really is.


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## ZECH (May 29, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> A dextrose free version isn't offered because dextrose and creatine are the only two things in the supplement that are worth spending money on.  It may be overpriced, but at least it has *some* ingredients that "work".  Take those two away and you have nothing left.



You would argue with a telephone pole!


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## ZECH (May 29, 2008)

Yeah, we have beat this subject to death.


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## Arnold (May 29, 2008)

dg806 said:


> Yeah, we have beat this subject to death.



ya think?


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## JerseyDevil (May 29, 2008)

One of my favorite quotes of all time....

"A sucker is born every minute", although P.T Barnum never said it, still a classic quote when it comes to seperating people from their money.

After 20 years of lifting, these are my conclusions.

I tried Joe Weider protein powders, no result except a smaller wallet.

I tried chromium picolinate, no result except a smaller wallet.

Tried EAS HMG, absolutely no gains, but a HIGHLY smaller wallet.

I tried creatine..... gained 5 lbs of water and could do 3 more reps on a high rep wo. No more gain with continued use. But if I stopped, I lost 5 lbs of water and lost 3 reps on my high rep wo.

After about 15 years of lifting consistently....

Tried prohormones in the form of 1AD, transdermal 4AD, M1T.... big gains. 30 lb increase in bench in around 2 to 2-1/2 weeks. Lost gains almost as fast as I gained once ceased.

Tried steroids in the form of testosterone enanthate, deca, dianabol, winstrol. Huge gains in strength and size. Gains long lasting, about a year after ceasing..

Moral of the story, according to me (imo), don't waste your cash on "supplements" provided by the guys trying to make a living from it. If you are serious, use the real deal.

Do I recommend that? NO. I recommend...

LIFT BIG
EAT BIG 
GET BIG

Seems so simple huh? Food is super anabolic. Proof? If you stop eating, you will die. If you eat a bunch, you will get big (fat and muscle). If you stop eating, and take high dose steroids? You will still shrink and die.

I'm sure the supplement boys will slam this post, but remember YOU are lining their wallets. They have an agenda.


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## TexanTA1996 (May 29, 2008)

JerseyDevil said:


> One of my favorite quotes of all time....
> 
> "A sucker is born every minute", although P.T Barnum never said it, still a classic quote when it comes to seperating people from their money.
> 
> ...



You are absolutely correct.


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## nni (May 29, 2008)

yes, nothing works, science lies.


im all for saying the majority of stuff being sold is crap, but i will never say all supplements are worthless. it simply isnt true, but nothing will compare to steroids.


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## TexanTA1996 (May 29, 2008)

nni said:


> yes, nothing works, science lies.
> 
> 
> im all for saying the majority of stuff being sold is crap, but i will never say all supplements are worthless. it simply isnt true, but nothing will compare to steroids.



Technically, a protein supplement is food.  So I'm not talking about protein, or even weight gainers, MRP's etc...I don't believe he was either.  

We're talking about 99% of the other supps out there.  Multi's and all that stuff are great.  However, most everything else is a gigantic waste of money.


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## nni (May 29, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Technically, a protein supplement is food.  So I'm not talking about protein, or even weight gainers, MRP's etc...I don't believe he was either.
> 
> We're talking about 99% of the other supps out there.  Multi's and all that stuff are great.  However, most everything else is a gigantic waste of money.



i disagree. i think the problem lies in company claims, and the never ending comparison to steroids. eliminate steroids from history, and all of a sudden many supplements work. but with the existence of steroids, gaining 10lbs in a month is a lot better than an extra pound or two from a test booster, therefore supps dont work.

there is too much science out there to ignore the effectiveness of certain compounds, they do in fact work. when i see blood results per and post a test booster it does work, it just doesnt compare to the illegal compounds.


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## TexanTA1996 (May 29, 2008)

nni said:


> when i see blood results per and post a test booster it does work, it just doesnt compare to the illegal compounds.



Supplements that have the ability to increase a humans testosterone levels enough to result in significant gains WILL have side effects that come with it.  End of story.  That puts them in a different class than the supplements I'm referring to.


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## nni (May 29, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Supplements that have the ability to increase a humans testosterone levels enough to result in significant gains WILL have side effects that come with it.  End of story.  That puts them in a different class than the supplements I'm referring to.



significant gains is something related to steroids. to me, being somewhat of a hard gainer, gaining 5 lbs in a month is significant, im sure steroids have triple that. but significant gains do not come from supplements, moderate gains do. 

im talking herbal, natural test boosters, not endogenous steroids, boosting natural test production to result in significant gains does not exist, only introducing exogenous hormones does that .im not talking about spiked supplements, or gray supplements, i am talking the legit supplements that arent questioned to be breaking any laws. some supplements work, i cannot say that it isnt true. i will say that when most companies find something that works well, they inflate the results and make so many claims that the product can never live up to the hype.


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## TrojanMan60563 (May 29, 2008)

I tried HMB in like 98, and it wasn't amazing on its own...nothing great for what the cost was at the time. Its hard to say it did nothing because I was working so hard in the gym and diet was on point. If I had to give advice I would say HMB would be on the bottom of my list of supplements to use. I will go on a limb and say I believe that high doses of Glutamine is more effective....but on another note its been 10 years since trying it and things change within your body over the years...I would probably try it again to see if it did anything...but I wouldn't have high expectations.


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## TexanTA1996 (May 30, 2008)

TrojanMan60563 said:


> I tried HMB in like 98, and it wasn't amazing on its own...nothing great for what the cost was at the time. Its hard to say it did nothing because I was working so hard in the gym and diet was on point. If I had to give advice I would say HMB would be on the bottom of my list of supplements to use. I will go on a limb and say I believe that high doses of Glutamine is more effective....but on another note its been 10 years since trying it and things change within your body over the years...I would probably try it again to see if it did anything...but I wouldn't have high expectations.



It is just me or do the opinions differ greatly from sponsors to real opinions 

I've hit 3 PRs in the last couple of weeks, it's crazy, I'm not even using RESULTS or HMB    It's sort of like the workouts in the RESULTS log thread, mine just came 50 bucks cheaper.


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## Built (May 30, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Supplements that have the ability to increase a humans testosterone levels enough to result in significant gains WILL have side effects that come with it.  End of story.  That puts them in a different class than the supplements I'm referring to.



I'm not so sure about that. If you can take something that puts you back into the high end of normal, won't you still enjoy better health without sides?

Just throwing it out there.


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## Arnold (May 30, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> It is just me or do the opinions differ greatly from sponsors to real opinions [



yeah, we call this bias, it happens in all areas of life.


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## TexanTA1996 (May 30, 2008)

Built said:


> I'm not so sure about that. If you can take something that puts you back into the high end of normal, won't you still enjoy better health without sides?
> 
> Just throwing it out there.



Good point, I'd be interested in hearing what supps ppl have done this with.


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