# Possible to gain and lose at the same time?



## Mariner (Jun 15, 2003)

Hello, I'm looking for tips to help in gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time.

I am currently following a Body For Life like program and have had great results over the past 6 weeks. However, I feel the need to increase my workouts to push more iron and gain more muscle.

Will I be able to cut and bulk at the same time? Or, if my primary goal is to lose fat should I simply concentrate on cutting the fat now and clean bulking later once I've reached a decent body fat percentage?

I can include pics if that would help. Thanks for the advice!


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## gr81 (Jun 15, 2003)

no it isn't possible, focus on one at a time


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## Fit Freak (Jun 16, 2003)

For the most part the are 2 cases where it's possible to gain muscle while losing fat:

1) You're using anabolic steroids (AAS)

2) You're a beginner lifter

After that I would say it's not going to happen


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## Jodi (Jun 16, 2003)

I disagree.  I believe with the proper diet you can build muscle while cutting.  I do it all the time!  

Yes the progress is very slow compared to building muscle while bulking but regardless, it is possible IMO and my experience.

I'm pretty much guessing here, but I assume because you are currently on the BFL program that you are a beginner.  As Fit Freak said because you are a beginner you will for sure be able to cut and gain muscle at the same time.  

You may want to think about posting your diet.


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## tjwes (Jun 16, 2003)

I agree with Jodi. It`s all about changing body composition.You can`t bulk up and cut up simultaneously ,but you can build muscle while losing fat at the same time.A good diet and time is what it takes.Have you ever seen before and after pics of people who weighed 200 lbs. of fat then AFTER still weighed 200 lbs. but were a lot harder? I know it`s not a good example but it can happen if you are patient.


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## ZECH (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Fit Freak *_
> For the most part the are 2 cases where it's possible to gain muscle while losing fat:
> 
> 1) You're using anabolic steroids (AAS)
> ...


I agree 100% with this!


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## Mudge (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> no it isn't possible, focus on one at a time



I read T-Mag now and again, and I have no idea where you get the idea that this is impossible.

Simply working out can help the metabolism itself, fix up the diet, as well as the muscle itself needing its own calories for sustaining itself. Overall though unless your genetically gifted, your going to have to live with less progress each way. This is why people bulk, or cut, generally speaking doing both at the same time is like trying to step forwards and backwards at the same time. Its possible but you have to live with slower progress, especially if natural.

It is not however impossible. Like Fit Freak eluded to however, unless you get things right you may just end up frustrated.


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## Mariner (Jun 16, 2003)

Thanks for the replies. I???d like to get a concrete definition on what is considered a ???Beginner Lifter???. And, what qualifies as an intermediate and advanced lifter?

For reference, I have lifted on and off since high school (hmm, many years ago???). I know all but the most obscure exercizes and I always execute with good form. I don???t have the luxury of a spotter so when I lift to failure it???s on a machine. I???m around 14% bodyfat as measured by that nifty electro-gizmo at the gym but I???d like to get to around 7-8%. My goal in life is to look like Brad Pitt in Fight Club (heh, just kidding).

As for the original topic, what kind of body fat percentage are we talking about when we are trying to gain muscle?


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## Mudge (Jun 16, 2003)

Concrete definition, thats a tough one, because it depends what circles you travel in. To some an "advanced lifter" is NPC level or above, intermediate say 19" arms or better. Again it depends who you ask.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Fit Freak *_
> For the most part the are 2 cases where it's possible to gain muscle while losing fat:
> 
> 1) You're using anabolic steroids (AAS)
> ...



I'd respectfully like to add a third option.  If you can figure out how to send the "fed" signal to the body, without the accompanying calories, you could accomplish both at the same time.

A fourth would be through using prohormones, unless that falls under category (1) depending on your views.


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## Skib (Jun 16, 2003)

i'm no expert or anything but i don't see how it's not possible unless you have no fat to really lose...

if you're eating properly and exercising, will your body not shed the fat from exercise and use the nutrients you're giving it to build muscle?

cardio is usually essential for burning fat, but does a lot of muscle get burned as well?


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## Robboe (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> I'd respectfully like to add a third option.  If you can figure out how to send the "fed" signal to the body, without the accompanying calories, you could accomplish both at the same time.
> 
> A fourth would be through using prohormones, unless that falls under category (1) depending on your views.




Another: if you're really fat.


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## Jodi (Jun 16, 2003)

I don't understand how you guys can deny the fact that one can put muscle on during a caloric deficit.  How do you think I built muscle and how do you think most women do it???  I never did any bulk until this past winter and I had plenty of muscle before then and I was in a caloric defict for 9 months prior.  I only bulked for 4 weeks too.  I've been in a caloric defict for 6 months and my w8's and strength are increasing still.  Sure its definately alot slower process than when I was bulking but its still happening!!  

Oh and I don't use any AAS or prohormones.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> I don't understand how you guys can deny the fact that one can put muscle on during a caloric deficit.  How do you think I built muscle and how do you think most women do it???  I never did any bulk until this past winter and I had plenty of muscle before then and I was in a caloric defict for 9 months prior.  I only bulked for 4 weeks too.  I've been in a caloric defict for 6 months and my w8's and strength are increasing still.  Sure its definately alot slower process than when I was bulking but its still happening!!
> 
> Oh and I don't use any AAS or prohormones.



Its perspective, not an impossibility.

If, in the course of a year, you can bulk and add say 15 pounds of LBM, and then Cut and Lose 15 pounds of fat, are you not better off than trying to do both, and only end up gaining 10 pounds of muscle and losing 10 pounds of fat?

As I always say: CONTEXT.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Another: if you're really fat.



I'd put this in the beginner category, unless you are talking of an overfat powerlifter, in which case he will have a tough time adding muscle anyway.


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## Robboe (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> I don't understand how you guys can deny the fact that one can put muscle on during a caloric deficit.



Jodi, do you perform bi-weekly carb ups?


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## Robboe (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> I'd put this in the beginner category, unless you are talking of an overfat powerlifter, in which case he will have a tough time adding muscle anyway.




Well someone who's been training for 2-3 years but who is also in the 20%+ bodyfat region most likely has a shit load of triglycerides floating around their blood system, and usually at this bf (unless having a genetic disorder), the fat cells are more than happy to let go of some fat. During this, the body doesn't sense that calories are being restricted and muscle can continue to be gained.

it may not be a hugely significant muscle gain and fat loss, but it's certainly a possibility.


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## Jodi (Jun 16, 2003)

TCD - Only on this particular plan but I change my plan every 4-6 weeks.

TP - I hate bulking thats why!  I tried it for 4 weeks and I mentally could not handle it.  I felt fat all the time!   So thats why I prefer this way.  Besides, I don't care if I put on another ounce of muscle.  I'm happy and pleased with the amount I now have.  Now I have to shed the rest of the fat.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> TCD - Only on this particular plan but I change my plan every 4-6 weeks.
> 
> TP - I hate bulking thats why!  I tried it for 4 weeks and I mentally could not handle it.  I felt fat all the time!   So thats why I prefer this way.  Besides, I don't care if I put on another ounce of muscle.  I'm happy and pleased with the amount I now have.  Now I have to shed the rest of the fat.



That is just a matter of personal goals.

But except with notable exceptions listed above, if the goal is to gain as much muscle as possible, and lose as much fat as possible, the quickest road is a series of hypo and hyper caloric stints.  Now, if you have followed my journal, you know that how I currently bulk and cut is very different from what most do.


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## Robboe (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> TCD - Only on this particular plan but I change my plan every 4-6 weeks.



Jodi, you realise that the days of carb loads *tend* to knock you above calorie maintenance and thus out of deficit. Muscle can be built in surplus.

Do tell what your other plans involve.


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## Jodi (Jun 16, 2003)

TCD - I don't carb load, I do a carb-up and even with the amount of carbs on my final meal, it still does not put me above caloric maitenance.

Most of the other plans that I follow are 50/30/20 or  50/25/25 but they are always below maintenance.  
Another thing, most know that I really worked hard on my legs this past year.  Well to prove that *I* can gain muscle during a deficit, I reached my heaviest w8 of squatting and pressing during a deficit.  When I reached my personal best I was 8 weeks into a cut and that meal plan was 50%P 30%F 20%C.


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## ZECH (Jun 16, 2003)

Look at any top level pro, NPC, IFBB or whichever? The only way they add muscle, men or women, is to increase calories and protein on bulk. Then it is usually 8 to 12 week diet right before contest. When you get that big, it takes alot just to maintain the muscle you have. If you stay in calorie deficit, you will loose muscle. No way around it!


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## Twin Peak (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> Well to prove that *I* can gain muscle during a deficit, I reached my heaviest w8 of squatting and pressing during a deficit.  When I reached my personal best I was 8 weeks into a cut and that meal plan was 50%P 30%F 20%C.



I am not trying to gang up on you here, but gaining strength and gaining muscle are not the same thing.  Indeed, I will contend that it is far easier to gain strength while hypocaloric then it is to gain muscle.


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## Jodi (Jun 16, 2003)

I'm positive it was muscle gain TP seeing my legs got 2" bigger with no fat gain.  

Now I'm trying to shrink the muscle


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## Mudge (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Look at any top level pro, NPC, IFBB or whichever? The only way they add muscle, men or women, is to increase calories and protein on bulk.



Well  we can easily argue, that its true for them because they are way outside of the range of a natural person. So for them to maintain thier size they need both gear, and high calories - gear works best on high caloric intake diets.

Gearhead bulking is not something hardly anyone in here does, pizza, ice cream, milk is all NORMAL and I dont want to hear otherwise because its the truth. When these guys are going from 280 to 300+, they aren't just eating chicken and rice.

So when they start switching to items for show prep so that they dont hold water, they are inevitably going to lose size on the low calorie diets coupled with different compounds being used for contest prep since they can't afford to come in full of bloat.

Anyone is eventually going to hit some kind of wall when trying to continue to gain beef on a caloric restriction, but I still believe absolutely that both are possible at the same time. Of course like noted the experience level, fat levels and so on are going to determine just how much of a compromised situation it is.


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## DaMayor (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> Now I'm trying to shrink the muscle




Why?


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## ZECH (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Well  we can easily argue, that its true for them because they are way outside of the range of a natural person. So for them to maintain thier size they need both gear, and high calories - gear works best on high caloric intake diets.
> 
> Gearhead bulking is not something hardly anyone in here does, pizza, ice cream, milk is all NORMAL and I dont want to hear otherwise because its the truth. When these guys are going from 280 to 300+, they aren't just eating chicken and rice.
> ...


True. Lots of factors involved! And TP, I was going to post the same statement about strength and size!


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## Jodi (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> Why?


Because I can't get my jeans over my legs.    I had to go from a size 1 to a size 3 with a belt to hold them up just to fit my legs.


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## Mudge (Jun 16, 2003)

I know the feeling, I'm going to have to shop at Big and Tall now. I guess for you that means Pretty and Plump   I'm sure people will stare wondering what your doing in there.


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## Jodi (Jun 16, 2003)

OMG! I hardly call a size 3 Plump!!!


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## Twin Peak (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> I'm positive it was muscle gain TP seeing my legs got 2" bigger with no fat gain.
> 
> Now I'm trying to shrink the muscle



I am not saying whether it was or wasn't.

I am saying that your implication that you "must have" gained muscle by the evidence of the stength increase is not *necessarily* correct.


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## ZECH (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> OMG! I hardly call a size 3 Plump!!!


Mudge, abandon ship, abandon ship!!!


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## DaMayor (Jun 16, 2003)

Hey Mudge, Pretty and Plump? Ouch! 

Yeah, I hate to hear that Jodi. Size 3 must really suck....especially considering that most women are an average size 10-12 or bigger.


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## Jodi (Jun 16, 2003)

TP Did you see my leg pics?  Its obvious I gained muscle.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> TP Did you see my leg pics?  Its obvious I gained muscle.



I did.  And I agree.  I am not disputing this point.  I think you misunderstand me.

BTW, I have a similar problem.  Pants/shorts that fit me around the waist do not fit me in the upper leg/quad area.


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## Jodi (Jun 16, 2003)

Oh, Ok, so then how did I do it then? 

And yes, it sucks especially for a women have to increase your pant size because of your legs as well as mentally disappointing.

DM - I don't want to be the average women


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## Mudge (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> TP Did you see my leg pics?  Its obvious I gained muscle.



Jodi, dont take offense. I have never even been to P&P, I dont know what they have. But my situation is like this, my T shirts look like I stole them from my little brother (thats what someone told me), and Big and Tall is the only place I can get a T shirt with different dimensions that DONT make the T shirt longer.

Same with the pants, its the only place I could go without just upping the waist size. I went from 32/32 years ago, to 34/32, and now I wear a 36/32 because I wont fit in anything else without ripping the crotch walking


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## Mudge (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> BTW, I have a similar problem.  Pants/shorts that fit me around the waist do not fit me in the upper leg/quad area.



'Xactly.


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## Mudge (Jun 16, 2003)

If only some company would make clothes for "bodybuilder" types that didn't have stupid logos everywhere


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## Twin Peak (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> Oh, Ok, so then how did I do it then?



I repeat, you missunderstand me.


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## Jodi (Jun 16, 2003)

I must be.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 16, 2003)

I never said it can't be done.  Just said that except the previously discussed exceptions, it was not the most efficient, or quickest way to gain as much muscle and lose as much fat, as possible, over an extended period of time.

That is all.

Then you countered with the fact that you gained strength while dieting.

Although this does not counter what I previously states, I simply said that while in a hypocaloric state it is easier to gain strength then it is to gain muscle, an one does not necessarily mean the other.


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## Jodi (Jun 16, 2003)

Gotcha!

For the record I never said it was the most effective way I just said yest it can be done!


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## Mudge (Jun 16, 2003)

Ditto


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## tjwes (Jun 16, 2003)

Prp- Hormones don`t work ,save your money and eat a lot of good quality food.An intermediate lifter is someone who has been training "Correctly" and intensely for about two years or so and has graduated beyond the beginner basics,it has nothing to do with arm size or competing.


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## Robboe (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tjwes *_
> Prp- Hormones don`t work ,



All due respect, there are hundreds of prohormones users who would beg to differ.

We're not talking about "andro" from back in the day here.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tjwes *_
> Prp- Hormones don`t work ,save your money and eat a lot of good quality food.An intermediate lifter is someone who has been training "Correctly" and intensely for about two years or so and has graduated beyond the beginner basics,it has nothing to do with arm size or competing.



Wow, you have all the answers don't you?

And Rob, you could probably safely say, thousands of users.


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## Robboe (Jun 16, 2003)

I initially wrote thousands, but i wasn't sure in all honesty. You're probably right.


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## ZECH (Jun 16, 2003)

Wanna go for a million??


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## Robboe (Jun 16, 2003)

Don't be such a dumbass. There's no where near 1 million people on this planet. 

Only a fool would think otherwise.


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## ZECH (Jun 16, 2003)

I hope your kidding!


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## Twin Peak (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Don't be such a dumbass. There's no where near 1 million people on this planet.
> 
> Only a fool would think otherwise.



This was my thought exactly.


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## ZECH (Jun 16, 2003)




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## Malachor (Jun 16, 2003)

Being a teenager I guess I definitely have the advantage on eatting whatever I want and still gaining muscle/size.  I gained a lot of fat in the last year, but nonetheless muscle and strength were gained.  I was getting half my protein from milk because I didn't know how bad sugar could be for gaining fat.  Plus, milk does have quite a bit of fat in it.  In a little over a year I went from a 32/32 to a 39/32.  Now I'm trying to lose the extra fat while keeping my muscle.  It's not going very fast, but I'm also not eatting 100% clean.  I still eat a lot of fattening foods, but I've lost a lot of empty calories by cutting out things like soda, candy, and excess fat/sugar products.  I have lost fat around the top abs, but I'm still working on the waste.

The biggest problem is finding shirts that I like that fit me.  Being 6'3 and having gained quite a bit of muscle in my upper body has proved to be a problem.  Most XL shirts I find are too short for me and they look like I'm too poor or dumb to find shirts that fit.  Also, old XL shirts that have fit right, are being worn out sine I wear them more due to finding less clothes.  It indeed sucks.  I haven't had the problem finding shorts or pants that fit right due to leg thickness.  I guess that's coming next...


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## gr81 (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> I read T-Mag now and again, and I have no idea where you get the idea that this is impossible.
> 
> Simply working out can help the metabolism itself, fix up the diet, as well as the muscle itself needing its own calories for sustaining itself. Overall though unless your genetically gifted, your going to have to live with less progress each way. This is why people bulk, or cut, generally speaking doing both at the same time is like trying to step forwards and backwards at the same time. Its possible but you have to live with slower progress, especially if natural.
> ...




Building muscle and losing fat is entirely different than slowing adding quality muscle without packing on the fat. I challenge anyone in this thread to explain biologically how it IS possible to build muscle while on a cutting diet. It isn't possible unless you are on drugs, and alot of them at that. Some people may be more genetically predisposed to have an easier time adding lean muscle than others, but it isn't happening. Do you know how many cals make up just 1lb of muscle? It's as simple as that this:  you need to burn more cals than you consume to lose fat, and to gain muscle you need need to consume more than you burn. Adipose tissue doesn't transform magically into muscle tissue, so where are all the nutrients and cals that are needed to make up a lb of muscle even, where is it coming from when you are on a restricted diet? please tell me. This is a ridiculous arguement. You all have been watching to many late night infomercials.


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## tjwes (Jun 16, 2003)

TP, I don`t have all the answers ,but beleive me their not all on this website.I contend that you CAN build muscle and lose fat at the same time.It`s not a "cutting up diet ,but an all around hi-protein ,moderate zig-zag carb intake,low good fat intake,tons of water,and some gut busting intense training.Oh by the way,do you have all the answer`s? Don`t be so dogmatic.


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## tjwes (Jun 16, 2003)

Gr81,Calories don`t build muscle ,protein does.Just keep your protein at 1.5-2 grams per pound of bodyweight and you`ll grow.


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## gr81 (Jun 16, 2003)

^^bullshit. go ahead and see how much muscle you build on an all protien diet. that is such an ignorant statement man. Why doesn't everybody just drink protien shakes all day and never consume calories, if that will get you big like you say. You obviously don't know the first thing about the human body and its functions. Hey I would love for you to go ahead and prove that you can build muscle by just consuming protien and that is it, I would love for you to prove that you can bulk and cut at the same time as well since you have all the answers, please. The fact of the matter is that you are just speculating and don't really know at all so don't try and tell me how to build muscle. Go hit the books and lean something, then you can contribute


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## ZECH (Jun 16, 2003)

gr81, same goes, try to keep it friendly! OK?


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## tjwes (Jun 16, 2003)

I didn`t say JUST protein did I ?NO.I`m not talking about bulking and cutting at the same time as they are two completely different things.I`m talking about building lean muscle tissue while keeping fat accumulation to a minimum.Protein contains calories,as do carbs and fats.I said zig-zagging carbs not eliminating them and I said a minimum of good fats,not no fats .I`m not talking about gainiong weight here ,I`m talking about changing body composition.T-mag doesn`t have all the answers either.My physique speaks for itself.I have won 40 trophies to date and have been training for 30 years or more son.


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## gr81 (Jun 16, 2003)

what the fuck are you talking about. You are completely contradicting yourself. You DID say protien builds muscle, not calories. The thread isn't asking how to build muscle while keeping fat to a minimum, it asks if you can build muscle and lose fat AT THE SAME TIME. You said that you can. Do you actually think that impresses someone that you won some local amatuer contest, b/c it doesn't. not 1 thing you have said has made any sense. Hey this is your exact quote 

"Gr81,Calories don`t build muscle ,protein does.Just keep your protein at 1.5-2 grams per pound of bodyweight and you`ll grow"

You can say all that you want about your trophies but I can tell exactly what kind of lifter you are by what you say and how you say it.


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## Mudge (Jun 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Malachor *_
> The biggest problem is finding shirts that I like that fit me. Being 6'3 and having gained quite a bit of muscle in my upper body has proved to be a problem. Most XL shirts I find are too short for me and they look like I'm too poor or dumb to find shirts that fit. Also, old XL shirts that have fit right, are being worn out sine I wear them more due to finding less clothes.



I'm 6'2" and wear XXL shirts, there are XXXL and XXXXL available in most stores. However they also make the shirts longer, so its about time for big and tall for me.


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## Malachor (Jun 16, 2003)

Yeah, I had to go to big and tall two weeks ago to get a nice button up shirt.  I'm just not big enough though to get most XXXL shirts, but the length is better.


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## Mudge (Jun 16, 2003)

XXXL is too long on me, but I have found that different MFGs, or even the same one depending when you buy it, are often never the same size twice  and the thickness of the shirt fabric often changes too (the quality). I hate that.


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## tjwes (Jun 17, 2003)

gr81,Why have a fit just because someone has a different opinion than yours? I don`t care that much about this issue to keep wasting my time arguing a point that doesn`t even freaking matter anyway.An open mind is a terrible thing to lose.You seem like a real nice guy though.Keep pumping !


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## Robboe (Jun 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> Do you know how many cals make up just 1lb of muscle?



Between 600 and 800kcals, and it requires about 2400kcals to synthesis one pound of muscle tissue.


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## Fit Freak (Jun 17, 2003)

> Gr81,Calories don`t build muscle ,protein does.Just keep your protein at 1.5-2 grams per pound of bodyweight and you`ll grow.



You have a lot to learn if you think this is the case....a think you are in need of a friendly reminder to have a read from a PHYSIOLOGY TEXT


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## Robboe (Jun 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tjwes *_
> Gr81,Calories don`t build muscle ,protein does.



There's a LOT more to hypertrophy than just protein.

(P.s. It's actually amino acids.)

Re: your calorie statement there - workers on a building site won't lay bricks unless you pay them.


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## Fit Freak (Jun 17, 2003)

> Building muscle and losing fat is entirely different than slowing adding quality muscle without packing on the fat. I challenge anyone in this thread to explain biologically how it IS possible to build muscle while on a cutting diet. It isn't possible unless you are on drugs, and alot of them at that. Some people may be more genetically predisposed to have an easier time adding lean muscle than others, but it isn't happening. Do you know how many cals make up just 1lb of muscle? It's as simple as that this: you need to burn more cals than you consume to lose fat, and to gain muscle you need need to consume more than you burn. Adipose tissue doesn't transform magically into muscle tissue, so where are all the nutrients and cals that are needed to make up a lb of muscle even, where is it coming from when you are on a restricted diet? please tell me. This is a ridiculous arguement. You all have been watching to many late night infomercials.



This was the most correct statement made in the last 2 pages of BS....it's a physiological fact.....and Jodi...you are saying you added 2 inches to your legs w/o ANY fat...I would beg to differ...which could be proven through accurate HYDROSTATIC MEASUREMENTS....what is much more likey is that you gained muscle with VERY LITTLE fat gain.


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## Robboe (Jun 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Fit Freak *_
> You have a lot to learn if you think this is the case....a think you are in need of a friendly reminder to have a read from a PHYSIOLOGY TEXT



Actually, if the link in his sig leads to a website with photos of him, then he's in good nick.


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## tjwes (Jun 17, 2003)

I`ve learned one thing ,I don`t really care.I`ve got better things to do.How long are we going to argue about this?We all have different opinions it doesn`t make yours right in my eyes,just like you don`t agree with mine.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tjwes *_
> TP, I don`t have all the answers ,but beleive me their not all on this website.I contend that you CAN build muscle and lose fat at the same time.It`s not a "cutting up diet ,but an all around hi-protein ,moderate zig-zag carb intake,low good fat intake,tons of water,and some gut busting intense training.Oh by the way,do you have all the answer`s? Don`t be so dogmatic.



I was referring to your ignorant comment about prohormones.

If you bothered to read my comments in this thread, it would be clear to you (as I discussed my position at length with Jodi) that I do believe you can do both at the same time.  Thanks for misunderstanding me though.

Do I have all the answers, far from it.  Do I limit my knowledge to this website.  Please.

Dogmatic?  Me?  That is laughable.  You clearly do not understand a word of what I say, explicitly or implicitly, or have a clue as to my "beliefs" on training and nutrition.  Thanks for being so presumptuous though.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> Building muscle and losing fat is entirely different than slowing adding quality muscle without packing on the fat. I challenge anyone in this thread to explain biologically how it IS possible to build muscle while on a cutting diet. It isn't possible unless you are on drugs, and alot of them at that. Some people may be more genetically predisposed to have an easier time adding lean muscle than others, but it isn't happening. Do you know how many cals make up just 1lb of muscle? It's as simple as that this:  you need to burn more cals than you consume to lose fat, and to gain muscle you need need to consume more than you burn. Adipose tissue doesn't transform magically into muscle tissue, so where are all the nutrients and cals that are needed to make up a lb of muscle even, where is it coming from when you are on a restricted diet? please tell me. This is a ridiculous arguement. You all have been watching to many late night infomercials.



Physiologically of course it is possible.  Causing nutrient partitioning through training, diet, and supplementation, one can divert more kcals (protein, EFAs, and carbs) consumed to muscle, and less to fat.  This can occur even in a hypocaloric state, such that sufficient nutrients (both micro and macro) are diverted to the muscle so that hypertrophy can occur.

Since you are in a hypocaloric state, your body needs energy from somewhere and since the bulk of your kcals are going toward muscle building, your body will utilize fat stores.

Thus, your body is physiolofically capable of both hypertrophy and lipolysis concommittently.

Granted, this is not nature's way, or even the prefer choice, that is why you need to manipulate this through, as I said, diet, training and supplementation.  BTW, one of the biggest reasons why AAS is an exception to the general rule is because it sends powerful repartitioning signals to the body.

Lastly, take your argument (that it is physiologically impossible) to the extreme and even significantly overfat newbies could not do both, save drug use.  That is obviously not true.


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## tjwes (Jun 17, 2003)

TP,No I don`t know about your beleifs any more than you know about mine.Your statement that you know what kind of lifter I am is totally ridiculous.You know nothing about me ,only that you disagree with me.I must also thank you for being so presumptuous.Pro-hormones might work for you, but they did nothing for me, except lighten the load in my wallet.There is a new supplement out called food.It probably worked for you because you beleived in them so strongly.Of course you don`t limit yourself to this website,good move, because with all the armchair authorities here you would be bound to fail in your attempts to build a good physique.Everyone here suggests reading a book or two.Is that what makes them experts?How about some in the trenches experience?I read a lot but I also have been training a long time,with very little propensity to build muscle.I had to experiment and try a lot of different methods.This is where you gain knowledge ,not in a book designed to take your money by touting a lot of mumbo-jumbo that a lot of people here quote.Read,by all means but use your own brain to find out what works for your particular situation.


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## ZECH (Jun 17, 2003)

tjwes, I would like to know which PH you took? There are several excellent PH's out that will give you excellent gains!! I've tried several over the last year or so and I've had good gains!


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## Twin Peak (Jun 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tjwes *_
> TP,No I don`t know about your beleifs any more than you know about mine.Your statement that you know what kind of lifter I am is totally ridiculous.



WTF are you talking about.  I never said this.  Your are clearly confusing things.

As to prohormones, there are dozens of people here, and thousands on other boards who have experienced unparalleled (save for AAS) growth.

I suspect you either used an outdated form, a poor brand, or an insufficient dosage.

I am an advanced lifter, and have gained 10-15 pounds of solid muscle in the last year, at least half of which is due to 3 short  prohormone cycles.

I have no clue what your rant is regarding a book, or what principles are touted that you disagree with.

It certainly seems you have issues, and those issues, when directed to me, are clearly misplaced.


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## Mariner (Jun 17, 2003)

Thanks for all the replies on this subject. Egos aside, it has been a good debate. My own experience is that I can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. But I???m speaking from the perspective of someone who isn???t interested in being massive. I simply want to see my abs and not be embarrassed taking my shirt off at the beach. I know in the last 8 weeks that I have lost at least 8% bodyfat and all my major muscles are bigger and more toned than before.

But, I???m also starting to feel like I need to work each musclegroup harder to see more gains. However, my number one goal remains to lose the fat around the waist. Once the love handles are gone I???ll be more concerned with muscle mass.

This board is a good source of info, but I have zero interest in any ???roid supplementation, nor do I want to get freaky with my bod. I simply want to look like Brad Pitt in fight club (joke).


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## Twin Peak (Jun 17, 2003)

Brad Pitt weighed around 140 pounds, in that movie.  I.e. the anorexic look.


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## Dale Mabry (Jun 17, 2003)

I agree with TP in that it is possible. For anyone to say it is impossible is unfounded.  Does anyone have conclusive evidence supporting that it can or cannot happen?  Nope.  Do some people have anecdotal evidence that it has happened to them?  Most definitely.  I feel it is more than possible. 

I would also like to add that when you have attained 200 lbs at 10% bf and then you get sloppy for a few months, it is possible to gain muscle and lose BF at the same time, at least by the measurements being used.  I love when people say most of the gain is water weight when your muscles are 70% water in the first place, of course any gain in muscle is going to be mostly water..


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## Twin Peak (Jun 17, 2003)

Of course, when I say most of the weight gain is water weight, I mean that it is subcutaneous waterweight, as opposed to intramuscular water weight.


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## Dale Mabry (Jun 17, 2003)

Oh, TP, I know that you know, I am talking about other folk who discredit progress with the statement.  Do you know who this is by the way?


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## Twin Peak (Jun 17, 2003)

Doesn't everyone? 

Welcome back.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> I agree with TP



With a comment like this, I figured it was someone intelligent.


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## Dale Mabry (Jun 17, 2003)

Only you would.  Nice Smilie,


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## Pepper (Jun 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Fit Freak *_
> For the most part the are 2 cases where it's possible to gain muscle while losing fat:
> 
> 1) You're using anabolic steroids (AAS)
> ...



IMO, you need to add one more....3) if you have alot of body fat.

I am 100% sure that i have lost body fat and added muscle. Will I be able to continue this as I get leaner? I doubt it.


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## Robboe (Jun 17, 2003)

*Hands Pepper the 'You need to look a page or two back' award for the month of June*


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## DaMayor (Jun 17, 2003)




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## Pepper (Jun 18, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> *Hands Pepper the 'You need to look a page or two back' award for the month of June*



Yep, I deserve that...I read all of that right after posting. Sorry!


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## Nate (Jul 10, 2003)

yes, it's possible.

i'm doing it right now with great results...so far.


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## OceanDude (Jul 10, 2003)

Wow, I just caught up with the thread ??? am reluctant to throw in my results for fear of re-kindling another heated round of debate. But the debate was very stimulating and I think by and by you all pulled the emotions in well and got some good thoughts on the table. Hey that???s why I came here to hear arguments and experiences from people that have actually been doing this stuff all their life. Well, it may be of benefit to hear the opinion of a person who fits into one of the prior categories of being a beginner and ???fat???.

OK. I am one of those guys who was carrying around a lot of body fat after getting ???domesticated??? for 15 years. I just decided I had enough of the sluggishness and the bad fitting clothes and the little aches and pains and other nasty things that happen as I aged. I was not a ???couch potato???, rather I was active but principally just not eating nutritiously and fat was on a winning advance. Anyway, I started one of the 12 week transformation programs at the start of this year. Since I use to lift off and on at an intermediate level years ago (10 ??? 15 years ago) I at least knew enough of the basic lifting principals to get me up to speed pretty fast. What I did not know when I started my transformation program was good nutrition ??? that I learned on the fly very rapidly (am intrigued by it all and it???s now a hobby). 

From my own personal results I have concluded that YOU CAN lose a LOT of fat and GAIN a fair (some) percentage of lean tissue/muscle on a slightly restrictive caloric intake and/or increased activity level when body composition is well outside of its original early adult genetic composition programming/template. Hell I use to be a string bean swimmer in High School and did not put on any muscle on till college. I concur however, with most here that it is probably NOT OPTIMAL (highly unlikely) to do both at the same time ??? especially once you get close to your basic natural body composition levels. But from my own personal experiences I am inclined to believe that the rules & conventional thinking (that you can???t do both fairly well) are much different when body fat levels are high and the person is not a pure endomorphic type (I???m probably naturally about a 2-7-1 ecto/meso/endo). That is, I believe that the body will actually GREATLY accommodate a complete composition makeover (i.e. essentially facilitate swapping a fair amount of fat for muscle) when way outside of your normal natural composition levels and when one knows certain rules about how to eat, when to eat and how to naturally manipulate natural hormones (predominantly insulin, IGF-1, GH & Testosterone) and how to encourage the body out of a state of catabolism. 

Having stated that let me now say this. I am not yet at an advanced level of body building by any means ??? I am now focusing on that 6 pack rather than huge mass gains. I am currently at 191 lb on a 6??? frame 10% body fat (down from 32%) in less than 6 months and have put on significant lean body mass (17 lbs ??? way more than I thought possible) that was lost to age and previously poor nutritional habits. I know the lean tissue gains are real (and not just a measurement and math artifact) since my strength gains are remarkable (albeit, a good portion of this strength gain is undoubtedly related to neurological efficiencies as well). Since I have now just about radically changed my body composition from the prior state and am closer to what I originally use to be (but actually stronger than at any prior time in my life), I believe it will now become much harder to put on additional mass/lean tissue without greatly increasing the risk of injury through higher intensity (risk benefit concept here) and the risk of more body fat (again risk-benefit concept) through higher caloric/protein intake. However, since my personal goals are probably not geared toward a true bodybuilder???s objective I will be very happy with focusing on maximizing my strength-to-weight ratio while maintaining a relatively low body fat for aesthetic purposes. If that means I can carry more aesthetically attractive muscle without substantially more risk ??? that???s terrific since it contributes to the greater strength to weight objective. 

Hey, I tend to run long on my posts ??? I apologize. But I did want to let you all know my personal experiences from the perspective of someone that is coming off that higher body fat scenario.


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## trinsdad (Jul 13, 2003)

NM


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