# The Vice Presidential Debate 2012



## Gregzs (Oct 11, 2012)

Since it was the only debate they were going to have VP Biden and Candidate Ryan went at it. I'm surprised no one posted about it yet.

FACT CHECK: Slips in vice president's debate | General Headlines | Comcast


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## bheart (Oct 11, 2012)

I saw another thread on the debate on here


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## Little Wing (Oct 11, 2012)

to sum it up for anyone that missed it.


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## LAM (Oct 12, 2012)

can't think of a bigger waste of time but I think I can sum it up with our having watched one in decades

"Blah...Blah...Blah....yackety smackety ....lies....lies...lies....blah...blah...blah...some truth...blah...blah..blah.."

the only hope for the youth of today is time travel...


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## FUZO (Oct 12, 2012)

VP debates dont matter and I would rather watch the game


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## Z499 (Oct 12, 2012)

I quit watching the debate last night and got pussy... It was much more exiting than seeing 2 guys sit in a chair and bicker like 2 old people in an nursing home.


Sent from my iPhone while dri


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## jay_steel (Oct 12, 2012)

Watched the debate after my class online and honestly it was pretty annoying Biden's professionalism during the debate made me wonder why Ryan did not jump across the table and slap him. It was also very offensive to hear Biden deny that they knew that the ambassador needed help. It makes me further think about what went wrong, because even at a local base in the states we increase security for all threats at local bases. So why wouldn't we ensure an over seas embassy was protected? Makes me wonder what is really going on.

The entire bail out for GM and stuff he insisted on bothered me because that was some thing Bush actually had passed but they took credit for. I just find it offensive that biden and obama take credit for every thing but do not take blame for their faults. 

The entire two year timeline, I take that with a grain of salt. I remember Obama's promising to bring back troops in 90 days back in 2008. At least Ryan is being honest about how there can be conditions, because no one can predict what will happen period. To make that promise we will have people home by 2012 only makes me feel like you are lying even more to gain votes. At this point Obama and Biden have nothing lose. 

I liked the story about Romney with the family and even Biden knew that it was true the Romney truly cares about the American Middle class. LW posted that video of him helping tear out that root and now hearing this story further concretes him further on caring for the people. I can see Biden getting his hands dirty to help but I just feel Obama has his nose so high up in the clouds he feels like he is better then every one. 

Biden did a much better job in this debate, but his lack of self control only got under my skin. Maybe it is some thing the military instilled in me but, when you are the one representing an entire group or organization you all ways conduct your self in a professional manner. Confidence is a better attribute to portray then arrogance.


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## Little Wing (Oct 12, 2012)

Biden has an important job. He doesn't have time to sit quietly and listen to idiots ramble. Ryan looked like a bug eyed ODD kid that can't accept he is wrong. Iran is *nowhere* near ready to make one bomb let alone five and it was enough to make anyone aware of this ready to smack him to see him go on n on n on about how close they are when he was obviously just pandering to the stupid. I saw Joe's interrupting as more wanting to movie on to a real issue not humoring Ryan's "let's stir 'em up with bullshit" And watch Ryan's facial expression. The thing he does that bugs out his eyes is tightening his forehead between the brows. It means he is lying.


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## Little Wing (Oct 12, 2012)

Obama was advised to be polite and non confrontational so he sat quietly and nodded his head respectfully and appeared to be listening intently while Romney switched his position on every key issue. Polite doesn't work when your opponents sit there and build a big pile of "stuff"


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## Little Wing (Oct 12, 2012)




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## jay_steel (Oct 12, 2012)

Little Wing said:


> Biden has an important job. He doesn't have time to sit quietly and listen to idiots ramble. Ryan looked like a bug eyed ODD kid that can't accept he is wrong. Iran is *nowhere* near ready to make one bomb let alone five and it was enough to make anyone aware of this ready to smack him to see him go on n on n on about how close they are when he was obviously just pandering to the stupid. I saw Joe's interrupting as more wanting to movie on to a real issue not humoring Ryan's "let's stir 'em up with bullshit" And watch Ryan's facial expression. The thing he does that bugs out his eyes is tightening his forehead between the brows. It means he is lying.




show me facts that state Biden is telling the truth about Iran, when all of the intel advisers are informing Obama we need to take action? Bidens debate was a dog and pony show plain and simple. They have all ready proved half the shit he said was false and most his claims against Ryan were made up. All he is trying to do is convince America to vote for Obama out of fear not facts.


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## LAM (Oct 12, 2012)

Little Wing said:


> Obama was advised to be polite and non confrontational so he sat quietly and nodded his head respectfully and appeared to be listening intently while Romney switched his position on every key issue. Polite doesn't work when your opponents sit there and build a big pile of "stuff"



they always put on a semi-convincing dog & pony show for the camera's but some checks of voting history on legislation shows exactly what it is.  the GOP is constantly meddling with the markets with their deregulation and top-down grants then the dems come throwing money at the problems they create, then the GOP calls them socialists for doing so.  it's utter insanity


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## hypo_glycemic (Oct 12, 2012)




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## Little Wing (Oct 12, 2012)

Perhaps the clearest indication of who won and  lost the VP debate came quickly on the heels of the event itself: the  Democratic post-debate message was that Joe Biden scored a clear win;  the Republican message was that Joe Biden was too mean to Paul Ryan. The  former is a boast of success; the latter is an excuse for failure. ~ Rachel Maddow


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## LAM (Oct 12, 2012)

jay_steel said:


> All he is trying to do is convince America to vote for Obama out of fear not facts.



how do you think the GOP kept winning presidential elections all these years.


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## Gregzs (Oct 12, 2012)

Krauthammer’s Analysis: If You Heard the Debate on the Radio, Biden Won; If You Watched It on TV, He Lost | Fox News Insider


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## hoyle21 (Oct 12, 2012)

jay_steel said:


> show me facts that state Biden is telling the truth about Iran, when all of the intel advisers are informing Obama we need to take action? Bidens debate was a dog and pony show plain and simple. They have all ready proved half the shit he said was false and most his claims against Ryan were made up. All he is trying to do is convince America to vote for Obama out of fear not facts.



http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/mar/12/ex-mossad-chief-iran-is-rational/


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## Swiper (Oct 12, 2012)

Ryan lost. he let Biden run all over him. they almost agreed on every issue.


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## secdrl (Oct 12, 2012)

jay_steel said:


> *show me facts that state Biden is telling the truth about Iran*, when all of the intel advisers are informing Obama we need to take action? Bidens debate was a dog and pony show plain and simple. They have all ready proved half the shit he said was false and most his claims against Ryan were made up. All he is trying to do is convince America to vote for Obama out of fear not facts.



She can't. She's just taking Biden's word for it. Sadly, that's enough for the majority of Americans.


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## Little Wing (Oct 12, 2012)

yea i'm too busy building a bomb shelter and pissing myself about camel riding boogeymen.


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## jay_steel (Oct 12, 2012)

hoyle21 said:


> Ex-Mossad chief: Iran is 'rational' - Washington Times



Again where are the facts about Iran. Biden said Iran has no weapon and are far from even achieving a weapon. He can not prove this, this is all based off of theory. I have zero trust in Obama and Biden with military related issues and foreign policy, there lies have all ready cost many people to lose their lives.


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## Little Wing (Oct 12, 2012)

secdrl said:


> She can't. She's just taking Biden's word for it. Sadly, that's enough for the majority of Americans.



you don't soften a place up with sanctions this harsh unless you're preparing to punch them out_ if you have to_. there's no way Iran will be allowed to have nuclear capabilities and Obama has made that clear.


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## btex34n88 (Oct 12, 2012)

Little Wing said:


> Perhaps the clearest indication of who won and  lost the VP debate came quickly on the heels of the event itself: the  Democratic post-debate message was that Joe Biden scored a clear win;  the Republican message was that Joe Biden was too mean to Paul Ryan. The  former is a boast of success; the latter is an excuse for failure. ~ Rachel Maddow



So your admitting this is on the same lines of the actual presidential debate where Romney laid the facts and Obama blamed the altitude? Snap crackle pop your a Republican deep down!


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## Little Wing (Oct 12, 2012)

Iran Propaganda Debunked in Less Than 7 Minutes

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dXyD8rHmq4
[/URL]


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## btex34n88 (Oct 12, 2012)

I love how Biden claimed his catholic faith plays a major role in his stance on Abortion. He doesnt believe in abortion because he's catholic, yet he doesnt support taking those rights away from women...yeah that makes sense lol. Catholics take a steady stance on abortion, Ryan straight up said how he felt, but Biden pussy footed around because he's a liberal, he has to meet the needs of the audience, he cant say how he truly feels. Personally i think abortion is the same as murder, however we cant completely rule it out under certain circumstances like rape & incest. Imagine if your mom fucked your dad, got pregnant(which she did) and then opted to not give birth to you. You wouldnt be sitting here typing right now, you would have never learned to ride a bike and you never would have got to experience the joys of life. If you dont believe in abortion Biden, then man up and say it you cunt.


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## Little Wing (Oct 12, 2012)

btex34n88 said:


> So your admitting this is on the same lines of the actual presidential debate where Romney laid the facts and Obama blamed the altitude? Snap crackle pop your a Republican deep down!



I don't see where Obama blamed anything. He said he had a bad night and the guy that claimed to be Romney had a good one.


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## Little Wing (Oct 12, 2012)

btex34n88 said:


> If you dont believe in abortion then man up and say it you cunt.



like Romney does every tuesday then takes back on wednesday?


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## Swiper (Oct 12, 2012)

Little Wing said:


> like Romney does every tuesday then takes back on wednesday?



yeah like Obama is against gay marriage then he's for it.  or for closing gitmo then against it. or hes against super pacs then he's for them. or he's for a birth control mandate for churches then he's against it. i can go on and on. 

both candidates are full of shit. 

 obamney 2012!


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## hoyle21 (Oct 12, 2012)

jay_steel said:


> Again where are the facts about Iran. Biden said Iran has no weapon and are far from even achieving a weapon. He can not prove this, this is all based off of theory. I have zero trust in Obama and Biden with military related issues and foreign policy, there lies have all ready cost many people to lose their lives.



That interview is with the former head of Mossad.   He is single handedly the most knowledgeable person on the planet when it comes to the Iran nuclear program.

Even he says Iran is years from making a weapon.


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## qwerty_lifter (Oct 12, 2012)

I'd totally buy a used car off Biden


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## LAM (Oct 12, 2012)

btex34n88 said:


> I love how Biden claimed his catholic faith plays a major role in his stance on Abortion.



does he realize that there is no difference between birth control and abortion and the decreasing birth rates of anglo catholics around the world (OECD country's) are at record lows because of the high usage of birth control.


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## Little Wing (Oct 13, 2012)

The 6 Studies Paul Ryan Cited Prove Mitt Romney's Tax Plan Is Impossible - Matthew O'Brien - The Atlantic

Let's briefly consider *the six such "studies" that Ryan cited -- most are actually blog posts -- *in turn.

1. *Harvey Rosen paper*.  Rosen, a professor at Princeton, assumed Romney's lower tax rates would  kickstart enough growth to pay for the revenue hole those lower tax  rates would create. This seems dubious. Alan Viard and Alex Brill  of the conservative American Enterprise Institute (AEI) have argued  that it seems unlikely revenue neutral tax reform would have big growth  effects -- incentives don't change even if tax rates do. And besides,  the Tax Policy Center used aggressive growth estimates from Romney  adviser Greg Mankiw's work to test Romney's plan. It still didn't add  up.


2. *Marty Feldstein Wall Street Journal op-ed*.  Former Reagan adviser and current Harvard professor Feldstein argued  Romney's plan works if you assume growth would be much stronger and if  you define middle class as households making less than $100,000 rather  than households making less than $200,000. This latter figure is the one  Romney has used when he has said his plan would not raise taxes on the  middle class. 


3. *Marty Feldstein blog post. *Feldstein  was less aggressive with his growth estimates this time, but he stuck  with his definition of middle class as households making less than  $100,000. He also assumed Romney might cut tax preferences for employer  health-insurance, make municipal bond interest taxable, and eliminate  the child tax credit for households making more than $100,000.


4. *Matt Jensen blog post at AEI*.  He argued Romney might cut tax preferences for municipal bonds and life  insurance buildups. But this might go against Romney's promise not to  cut tax preferences for savings and investment -- and would only pay for  half of Romney's revenue hole, according to the Tax Policy Center.


5. *Curtis Dubay blog post at Heritage*.  He argued Romney might cut tax preferences for municipal bonds and life  insurance buildups -- yes, again -- and that Romney might tax  inheritances on a "carryover basis" after eliminating the estate tax. In  plain English, heirs would have to pay capital gains for the price an  asset was bought for, rather than the price it was inherited at. But as Suzy Khimm of the _Washington Post_ notes, Dubay overestimates how much revenue this change -- which, remember, is just a _guess_ about what Romney would do -- would generate.


6. *Romney Tax Reform White Paper*. This is just his advisers arguing by assertion that the plan works.


In  other words, Romney's plan only works if you assume he has a different  plan or use a magic growth asterisk. And that means we have no idea what  he would do if he wins. Does he care more about his tax rate cuts,  about not hiking taxes on the middle class, or not increasing the  deficit? His adviser Kevin Hassett suggested they would back off the high-end tax rate cuts if it would increase the deficit, but Romney quickly denied that. He's also denied reality, by relying on studies that only prove his critics' point.


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## hypo_glycemic (Oct 13, 2012)

^^ what plan??


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## LAM (Oct 13, 2012)

any "plan" that does not involve creating higher paying jobs in the US is not a path to long term sustainable growth as taxes are at a 60 year low on large firms and capital, so they are obviously not the problem.  over the decades as the highest earners earn more from capital and less from wages that burden has been shifted down (what a shocker) on the workers with constantly increasing income taxes which goes great with stagnant and decreasing wages once adjusted for inflation.

is this what they talk about on the tv news all the time also?  because just reading about it all the time makes me want to blow my fucking head off....

"taxes, we talking about taxes" - in Allen Iverson voice


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## oufinny (Oct 13, 2012)

Little Wing said:


> The 6 Studies Paul Ryan Cited Prove Mitt Romney's Tax Plan Is Impossible - Matthew O'Brien - The Atlantic
> 
> Let's briefly consider *the six such "studies" that Ryan cited -- most are actually blog posts -- *in turn.
> 
> ...



The Economist this week just backed this up.  I like the attitude but the plan just doesn't add up.


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## LAM (Oct 13, 2012)

oufinny said:


> The Economist this week just backed this up.  I like the attitude but the plan just doesn't add up.



that's because it's simply voodoo economics re-packaged....there is no correlation at all between macroeconomic principles and real income growth and the past 30 years is proof-positive of this doesn't matter if they are pareto-effecient or not.


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## Swiper (Oct 13, 2012)

it's funny how u liberals think the govt has to pay for tax cuts.  it's not the govts  money.


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## Little Wing (Oct 13, 2012)

LAM said:


> any "plan" that does not involve creating higher paying jobs in the US is not a path to long term sustainable growth as taxes are at a 60 year low on large firms and capital, so they are obviously not the problem.  over the decades as the highest earners earn more from capital and less from wages that burden has been shifted down (what a shocker) on the workers with constantly increasing income taxes which goes great with stagnant and decreasing wages once adjusted for inflation.
> 
> is this what they talk about on the tv news all the time also?  because just reading about it all the time makes me want to blow my fucking head off....
> 
> "taxes, we talking about taxes" - in Allen Iverson voice



Dean Baker: Romney Pledges a Fed That Will Screw Workers


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## LAM (Oct 13, 2012)

Little Wing said:


> Dean Baker: Romney Pledges a Fed That Will Screw Workers



and this is why we see a constant decrease in labors share of the national income during republican presidential administrations.   and the right has the nerve to talk about redistribution and their low wage supporters gooble it up.

take the decreasing labors share of income combine that with increased debt and you come up with real GDP growth

Nonfarm Business Sector: Labor Share (PRS85006173) - FRED - St. Louis Fed


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## maniclion (Oct 13, 2012)

Little Wing said:


> you don't soften a place up with sanctions this harsh unless you're preparing to punch them out_ if you have to_. there's no way Iran will be allowed to have nuclear capabilities and Obama has made that clear.



Why are we worried about Iran, Israel can take care of that for us on the ground while we pound them from the Persian gulf, do you know how much fire power we have in that theater at any given moment?  I did 2 tours and the battle group on station round the clock is nothing to fuck with....we could rain down hellfire and brimstone in a snap of your fingers...


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## LAM (Oct 13, 2012)

maniclion said:


> we could rain down hellfire and brimstone in a snap of your fingers...



on every country in the middle east with the snap of a finger.  in the Defense Planning Guidance from 1992 the neo-cons even admitted there was no force in the world that could fuck with the US, then all of a sudden comes this threat of terrorism right out of the blue.

while I hate the way they used us in the military most will never understand just what the US can do with out using nukes.  one properly designed carrier group can pretty much take out most small countrys in terms of their defense systems.


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## LAM (Oct 13, 2012)

Swiper said:


> it's funny how u liberals think the govt has to pay for tax cuts.  it's not the govts  money.



taxes are what give fiat currency value as they are not redeemable for any commodity, they have no intrinsic value.  this stuff is way beyond you, it's why you are easy pray for tv economics from politicians.


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## Swiper (Oct 14, 2012)

LAM said:


> taxes are what give fiat currency value as they are not redeemable for any commodity, they have no intrinsic value.  this stuff is way beyond you, it's why you are easy pray for tv economics from politicians.



you being a communist/socialist  should know the only reason why the world excepts our money because its the reserve currency of the world,  when the world rejects it, it not gonna be worth the paper it's printed on. has nothing to do with taxes,  it's also has no backing by gold which will enhance its value of we go back on some kind of gold standard.


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## FUZO (Oct 14, 2012)

LAM has his head clean up Barrys ass


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## heavyiron (Oct 14, 2012)

Biden KNOWS Iran is far from having a nuclear weapon but Biden had NO idea there was a terrorist attack on our consulate.

Biden said "the administration didn't know more security was needed."


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## Swiper (Oct 14, 2012)

LAM said:


> and this is why we see a constant decrease in labors share of the national income during republican presidential administrations.   and the right has the nerve to talk about redistribution and their low wage supporters gooble it up.
> 
> take the decreasing labors share of income combine that with increased debt and you come up with real GDP growth
> 
> Nonfarm Business Sector: Labor Share (PRS85006173) - FRED - St. Louis Fed



average income of Americans has dropped by $5000 under Obama.

the economy has grown less this year than it had the previous year and even less than year before that,  under Obama


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## Little Wing (Oct 14, 2012)

FactCheck.org : Romney’s Stump Speech

Romney says median family income dropped $5,000 under Obama. That?s an  exaggeration. The true loss of inflation-adjusted, median family income  was $3,290 during Obama?s first three years. Romney?s figure is based on  a report that covers a period that includes 13 months before Obama took  office.


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## Swiper (Oct 14, 2012)

Median household incomes have fallen 8.2 percent since President Obama took office and continue to drop despite the official end of the  recession, a new study shows. 


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-obama-took-office-study-shows/#ixzz29KqNYxUA


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## bio-chem (Oct 14, 2012)

Little Wing said:


> FactCheck.org : Romney?s Stump Speech
> 
> Romney says median family income dropped $5,000 under Obama. That?s an  exaggeration. The true loss of inflation-adjusted, median family income  was $3,290 during Obama?s first three years. Romney?s figure is based on  a report that covers a period that includes 13 months before Obama took  office.



thanks for clarifying that for us. Bottom line Obama hasn't delivered the world he promised us 4 years ago, and 4 more years isn't going to change that.


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## Little Wing (Oct 14, 2012)

the promised land isn't what Mitt will deliver either.


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## LAM (Oct 14, 2012)

bio-chem said:


> thanks for clarifying that for us. Bottom line Obama hasn't delivered the world he promised us 4 years ago, and 4 more years isn't going to change that.



not Obama, McCain, Jesus, Allah, Buddha, ET or Chuck Norris's beard could do what he promised.  but if people had been paying greater attention to the economy before 2008 they wouldn't have bought into the bs so much and not have expected some miraculous turn-around in 4 years. if you guys read a fraction of the stuff that I post from the Fed you would understand this.

what is going on in the US has happened before to other country's in different periods of time it is nothing new to the world just to the US a very young country.  history has shown 2 things that no country escapes from, that the oligarchy causes nations economy's to collapse and that every major fiat currency in world history has failed.  both of these events eventually to occur in the US.

preventing the oligarchy is why the country's of the EU have not decreased taxes on large firms and capital post WWII as much as the US or to date, to prevent the creation of massive wealth in the hands of the few. it is why they have not allowed their financial sectors to grow as large as the US and to allow them to pray on their on citizens.  and it is why their economy's don't have frequent asset bubble burst cycles like we do in the US.  that's why I find it comical when people use the word socialism when referring to the EU, etc.  because out of all the history from the many hundreds and hundreds of years they have on us and the dozens of dozens of country's with different types of leaders and government, that is the only thing they picked up and most of the times just because they heard some politician use that word on tv.

capitalism has run it's course in the US and we are on the downward slope, as decreasing socioeconomic mobility is a hallmark of a failing economy.  I feel for all of you out there that have children, I really do.  I know many of you have to hope for a better future for their sake and you don't want to become cynical.  but no country escapes history the US included so hope for the best but also plan for the worst that's all I'm saying.  because the 1%ers on both side in D.C will always make out better than all of us.

pick your poison the fast track or the slower track


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## NVRBDR (Oct 14, 2012)

LAM said:


> capitalism has run it's course in the US and we are on the downward slope, as decreasing socioeconomic mobility is a hallmark of a failing economy.  I feel for all of you out there that have children, I really do.  I know many of you have to hope for a better future for their sake and you don't want to become cynical.  but no country escapes history the US included so hope for the best but also plan for the worst that's all I'm saying.  because the 1%ers on both side in D.C will always make out better than all of us.
> pick your poison the fast track or the slower track



Im not bashing you here, but, To say "plan for the worst" and leave no opinion is helping in what way? 

Here are a few ideas you may or may not agree with:

There are ways to be on the correct side of a possible economic apocalypse, the hurdle many face is they have too much debt and a lack of liquidity to really plan for a 2nd shoe to drop!

Many people use an IRA and mutual funds or diversify with currencies see link for an info source:
https://www.everbank.com/personal/foreign-currencies.aspx

Many people have chosen "hard precious metals" and the ETFS that represent them as preferred invetment tools, in additon to other ETF's for commodities trading.  I'm not recommending holding or trading ETFS for various reasons. However, an experienced trader can also use options to leverage themselves if they are lacking in liquid or are willing to take that risk VS reward gamble.

Many, including myself are heavily invested in real estate, due your own DD. be creative and make new streams of revenue so the money is flowing in from more than one direction. It would be interesting to see other ideas that I'm sure many of you have


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## Little Wing (Oct 14, 2012)

Republicans remind me of little kids at Christmas and they think mitt Romney is Santa Clause. I'll take the slow track please


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## LAM (Oct 15, 2012)

Jimmyusa said:


> Many people have chosen "hard precious metals" and the ETFS that represent them as preferred invetment tools, in additon to other ETF's for commodities trading.  I'm not recommending holding or trading ETFS for various reasons. However, an experienced trader can also use options to leverage themselves if they are lacking in liquid or are willing to take that risk VS reward gamble.
> 
> Many, including myself are heavily invested in real estate, due your own DD. be creative and make new streams of revenue so the money is flowing in from more than one direction. It would be interesting to see other ideas that I'm sure many of you have



I'm old school, I stick with hard assets and very little in real estate or anything equity based that is not tangible.  started to get into some currency trading but that stuff is managed by friends from hs that work in finance in other country's.  preservation is more important for me than creation as I have no children, etc.

"financial innovation" of recent decades have tainted the financial markets.  800-900T being traded annually on a global economy of 60T.   how long is that going to last? derivatives, CDSs and off-balance sheet reporting, etc. 

many large highly profitable US firms have less equity now then they did 30 years ago.  profits are being extracted in dividends today by CEO's etc. and being replaced with debt and hidden via off balance sheet reporting.  much of the gains on wallstreet the past 2 decades have come from company's investing in real-estate (residential).  it's why the Fed secretly handed out that 16T in loans in 2009 or the stock market would have crashed during the credit default swaps. 

considering the real economy compared to the fake economy created by finance on computers Bernie Maddof was actually right about it being a big ponzi scheme but what he did was obviously totally wrong.


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## Swiper (Oct 15, 2012)

LAM said:


> not Obama, McCain, Jesus, Allah, Buddha, ET or Chuck Norris's beard could do what he promised.  but if people had been paying greater attention to the economy before 2008 they wouldn't have bought into the bs so much and not have expected some miraculous turn-around in 4 years. if you guys read a fraction of the stuff that I post from the Fed you would understand this.
> 
> what is going on in the US has happened before to other country's in different periods of time it is nothing new to the world just to the US a very young country.  history has shown 2 things that no country escapes from, that the oligarchy causes nations economy's to collapse and that every major fiat currency in world history has failed.  both of these events eventually to occur in the US.
> 
> ...


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## jay_steel (Oct 15, 2012)

Little Wing said:


> Republicans remind me of little kids at Christmas and they think mitt Romney is Santa Clause. I'll take the slow track please




hahahha I think you have that backwards... Because Obama is santa with a bag full of Obama phones and EBT cards.


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## Little Wing (Oct 15, 2012)

Like I said, the concern for the unborn looks really phoney in light of the disregard for the living. Many Americans took pride in how we care for the less fortunate long before Obama.


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## jay_steel (Oct 15, 2012)

people sucking the system is not the less fortunate. People who refuse to not get off the system and get work and beg for free shit are greedy and only want for them selves. Less fortunate are people who worked a job got laid off collecting unemployment and continuing to look for work daily, fighting for that chance for employment. Not the person who used drugs growing up, dropped out of high school, lives off the system, and is a leach to society. I have no issues helping but greedy people rich or poor can just take a bullet to the head and we can call it a day.


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## hoyle21 (Oct 15, 2012)

jay_steel said:


> people sucking the system is not the less fortunate. People who refuse to not get off the system and get work and beg for free shit are greedy and only want for them selves. Less fortunate are people who worked a job got laid off collecting unemployment and continuing to look for work daily, fighting for that chance for employment. Not the person who used drugs growing up, dropped out of high school, lives off the system, and is a leach to society. I have no issues helping but greedy people rich or poor can just take a bullet to the head and we can call it a day.



We give them less money than we give to the super rich.


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## jay_steel (Oct 15, 2012)

exactly which is why i have posted shit about stopping half these stupid none profit organizations. The main difference is at least the super rich creates jobs.


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## Little Wing (Oct 15, 2012)

The argument that "rich people create the jobs" is repeated so often that many people regard it as fact.
 Specifically, the argument goes, entrepreneurs and investors, when  incented by low taxes, build companies and create millions of jobs.
 And these entrepreneurs and investors, therefore, the argument goes,  can solve our nation's huge unemployment problem ? if only we cut taxes  and regulations so they can be incented to build more companies and  create more jobs.
 In other words, this thinking goes, by even considering raising taxes  on "the 1%," we are considering destroying the very mechanism that  makes our economy the strongest and biggest in the world: The incentive  for entrepreneurs and investors to build companies in the hope of  getting rich and, in the process, creating millions of jobs.
 There have long been many problems with this argument starting with


*Taxes on rich people (capital gains and income) are,  relative to history, low, so raising them would only begin to bring them  back in line with prior prosperous periods*, and 
*Dozens of rich entrepreneurs have already gone on record confirming that a modest hike in capital gains and income taxes would not have the slightest impact on their desire to create companies and jobs*, given that tax rates

 are historically low. 
 So this argument, which many people regard as fact, is already flawed.

*what creates the jobs in our economy is, in part, "customers," who are these customers? And what can government policy

 do to make sure these customers have more money to spend to create demand and, thus, jobs? **The customers of most companies, Hanauer points out, are ultimately  the gigantic middle class ? the hundreds of millions of Americans who  currently take home a much smaller share of the national income than  they did 30 years ago, before tax policy aimed at helping rich people  get richer created an extreme of income and wealth inequality not seen since the 1920s.*

Read more: Here's The Real Problem With Mitt Romney's Economic Plan: It's Not "Rich People" Who Create Jobs - Business Insider




​


----------



## hoyle21 (Oct 15, 2012)

jay_steel said:


> exactly which is why i have posted shit about stopping half these stupid none profit organizations. The main difference is at least the super rich creates jobs.



Oh, I must be confused.   I thought unemployment was almost 8 percent and that didn't include the people who left the job market.


----------



## Little Wing (Oct 15, 2012)

the super rich fighting to keep more profits while their employees barely make enough to survive on isn't helping anyone but the super rich. 

Trimming back on eligibility for the  Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or SNAP, as food stamps are  called, would save $4 billion over the decade. Republicans are pushing  to reduce that even more. ...
 "Is the benefit going to the right people? Is the money being expended wisely?" questioned Sen. Jeff Sessions  (R-Ala.), who has led efforts to change the program, during a recent  Senate speech. "Is it encouraging people to look for ways to be  productive and be responsible for their families? Or does it create  dependency on a series of government programs?"
*Senator Sessions, that question is offensive. It's  especially offensive when you recognize that a significant number of  Americans who rely on Food Stamps to feed their families, are working full-time but are not being paid a thriving wage by their employers. So of course the benefit isn't going to "the right people," or being "spent wisely," because it's going to line the pockets of billionaires and their billion-dollar corporations!

ATTN CONGRESS: Walmart Is The Largest Food Stamp Recipient In The Country - The Winning Words Project
*


----------



## Little Wing (Oct 15, 2012)

*Walmart Is America’s First Welfare Queen Superstore | Addicting Info


Walmart receives between 25 and 40 percent of all food stamp spending.  Of course Walmart's slave wages force all of its employees to depend  heavily on $2.66 billion  in government help every year. The company that brought in $448 billion  in sales last year, the super concrete-laden seller of brightly colored  crap, gobbles up food stamps faster than land.  Walmart?s ridiculously low wages and deliberate underemployment keep  their workers just rich enough to not be living in a dumpster co-op, but  poor enough to be eligible for food stamps. Seeing as Walmart is the  reason why countless Americans go on Food Stamps in the first place, one  could say this is a low-cost orgy of irony.*


----------



## hoyle21 (Oct 15, 2012)

LW- It's because they have the incentive wrong.   Low taxes don't encourage business creation and thus job creation.   Low taxes encourages the hoarding of money.


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## Little Wing (Oct 15, 2012)

*Quite a few of today's superrich, Romney included, make or made their  money in the financial sector, buying and selling assets rather than  building businesses in the old-fashioned sense.* Indeed, the soaring  share of the wealthy in national income went hand in hand with the  explosive growth of Wall Street.  Not long ago, *we were told that all this wheeling and dealing was  good for everyone, that it was making the economy both more efficient  and more stable. Instead, it turned out that modern finance was laying  the foundation for a severe economic crisis whose fallout continues to  afflict millions of Americans*, and that *taxpayers had to bail out many  of those supposedly brilliant bankers to prevent an even worse crisis.*  So at least some members of the top 0.01 percent are best viewed as job  destroyers rather than job creators.

  Did I mention that *those bailed-out bankers are now overwhelmingly  backing Romney, who promises to reverse the mild financial reforms  introduced after the crisis?*

Are the superrich really 'job creators'? | Opinion | The Seattle Times


----------



## Big Pimpin (Oct 15, 2012)

Little Wing said:


> *Walmart Is America?s First Welfare Queen Superstore | Addicting Info
> 
> 
> Walmart receives between 25 and 40 percent of all food stamp spending.  Of course Walmart's slave wages force all of its employees to depend  heavily on $2.66 billion  in government help every year. The company that brought in $448 billion  in sales last year, the super concrete-laden seller of brightly colored  crap, gobbles up food stamps faster than land.  Walmart?s ridiculously low wages and deliberate underemployment keep  their workers just rich enough to not be living in a dumpster co-op, but  poor enough to be eligible for food stamps. Seeing as Walmart is the  reason why countless Americans go on Food Stamps in the first place, one  could say this is a low-cost orgy of irony.*



I worked at walmart early on in my college days (1hr photo) and outside of management, the majority of employees who work at walmart as their career deserve the shitty pay and benefits they get because the majority of non-management walmart employees have either given up on life or are too stupid to work anywhere else.  I have never seen such an overwhelmingly useless group of people in my life.


----------



## jay_steel (Oct 15, 2012)

tell me where would the world be with out the super rich. Just curious? If tomorrow every billionaire that employs hundreds of thousounds of employee's decided to shut down shop. That they decided, you know what people want to blame me because I am rich well they can go start their own company and we are shutting the doors. They have every right to do so, they have every right to fire every one and shut down. Apply employs over 300,000 people and over 200,000 make wages from apps. Yet people judge them because they are the super rich... What if they shut down tomorrow and now 500,000 people no longer have jobs. 

Its not the owner of these companies responsibility to ensure people are paid high, there number 1 responsibility period is to ensure the corporation is successful. Any business school will teach that, why pay more for labor if people are willing to work for less. Are they practicing illegal practices or employment, or is every thing they do lawful. In your mind it may not be moral, but ethically it is their responsibility to have the most successful company so they can further expand it and which will create more jobs. If a business can not stay competitive it will get crushed and shut down. All this bull shit on tax the rich, you have no clue how that is affecting you.

The price of food is dramatically going up, and who does that affect EVERYONE. My overhead for farming has gone up over 40k a year the past 3 years due to the larger companies having to pay more taxes. Where I get my spray from, electricity, tractors, maintenance equipment, fuel, and ect. I have to buy those from larger companies which are charging more now, due to the tax increases and they are having to pay more and so on. 

_?I have two options, I can stop offering coverage and pay the $2,000 fine, or I could keep my number of staff under 50 so the mandate doesn't apply,? she told Legal Newsline. Nichols added that the law may cost her between $20,000 to $30,000extra in taxes. ?Obamacare is making me think about cutting jobs instead," she said.


_


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## jay_steel (Oct 15, 2012)

Big Pimpin said:


> I worked at walmart early on in my college days (1hr photo) and outside of management, the majority of employees who work at walmart as their career deserve the shitty pay and benefits they get because the majority of non-management walmart employees have either given up on life or are too stupid to work anywhere else.  I have never seen such an overwhelmingly useless group of people in my life.



Also many of them have felonies and other major criminal backgrounds where other employeers would not consider to hire. The navy has a great moto. Choice your rate  choice your fate. If you do not like you job and you tell you self I want to make more money. Ask your self this... What am I qualified to do? If your list consists of moving shit, lifting things, and those are your top skills then you need to be happy you have a job.

I have two jobs and I am a full time student working for my BA in advanced networking, and going for my Masters next year in business management. I knew I needed a job so I saved money and bought the MCSE books and taught my self and took the test. The only people who deserve a shot in the world are the ones willing to put in the work. The ones willing to make the sacrifices of giving up things they enjoy like TV, video games, drinking, going out and ect to make extra time to become successful. Man did not get to this state of power on earth by begging. We got to this state of power by hard work and survival.


----------



## Little Wing (Oct 15, 2012)

All presidential campaigns, including certainly President Obama's,  receive extensive donations and policy advice from big corporations and  other special interests. And Mitt Romney may truly believe to his core  that all Americans, and not just his wealthy patrons and partners, will  benefit from the policies described above.*  But never has a presidential  candidate so blatantly tied his family's own financial dealings, and  those of his big donors, to his campaign policy proposals, including  proposals that undermine fiscal responsibility, government  accountability, and common sense.* No Apology  indeed. Rather, *rule of the rich, by the rich, and for the rich --  borderline kleptocracy.* If Americans ignore these signs, they do so at  their peril.

David_Halperin: Beneath the Etch a Sketch: 5 Signs That Romney's Real Ideology is Crony Capitalism


----------



## Big Pimpin (Oct 15, 2012)

Riddle me this:  Why the fuck would any honest person with integrity want to run this fucked up country and live in a fish bowl for a measly $400,000/yr?


----------



## hoyle21 (Oct 15, 2012)

jay_steel said:


> tell me where would the world be with out the super rich. Just curious? If tomorrow every billionaire that employs hundreds of thousounds of employee's decided to shut down shop. That they decided, you know what people want to blame me because I am rich well they can go start their own company and we are shutting the doors. They have every right to do so, they have every right to fire every one and shut down. Apply employs over 300,000 people and over 200,000 make wages from apps. Yet people judge them because they are the super rich... What if they shut down tomorrow and now 500,000 people no longer have jobs.
> 
> Its not the owner of these companies responsibility to ensure people are paid high, there number 1 responsibility period is to ensure the corporation is successful. Any business school will teach that, why pay more for labor if people are willing to work for less. Are they practicing illegal practices or employment, or is every thing they do lawful. In your mind it may not be moral, but ethically it is their responsibility to have the most successful company so they can further expand it and which will create more jobs. If a business can not stay competitive it will get crushed and shut down. All this bull shit on tax the rich, you have no clue how that is affecting you.
> 
> ...



This drivel is the exact opposite of what guys like Sam Walton, Bernie Marcus, and Arthur Blank believed and taught.

But hey, who should we listen to?   The founders of Walmart and Home Depot or the guy who has no real world experience that's working on a business degree?


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## jay_steel (Oct 15, 2012)

This nonsense I am speaking of is coming from every farmer in where I farm Almonds at. Plain and simple the price it takes to complete our yield goes up, the price of your food increases. Then because of water supply drastically down due to environmentalist our yields are smaller which increases your prices as well. But shit who cares about the farmer that is working on his business degree..

You just contradicted your entire post? First every one is blasting walmart for bad business practices, now your saying their practices are good?


----------



## Dale Mabry (Oct 15, 2012)

jay_steel said:


> This nonsense I am speaking of is coming from every farmer in where I farm Almonds at. Plain and simple the price it takes to complete our yield goes up, the price of your food increases. Then because of water supply drastically down due to environmentalist our yields are smaller which increases your prices as well. But shit who cares about the farmer that is working on his business degree..
> 
> You just contradicted your entire post? First every one is blasting walmart for bad business practices, now your saying their practices are good?



Why is water down because of environmentalists?


----------



## hoyle21 (Oct 15, 2012)

jay_steel said:


> This nonsense I am speaking of is coming from every farmer in where I farm Almonds at. Plain and simple the price it takes to complete our yield goes up, the price of your food increases. Then because of water supply drastically down due to environmentalist our yields are smaller which increases your prices as well. But shit who cares about the farmer that is working on his business degree..
> 
> You just contradicted your entire post? First every one is blasting walmart for bad business practices, now your saying their practices are good?



I didn't contradict anything, you must not be aware of Walmart's history.   Sam Walton was a very generous boss.   Walmart didn't start treating people like shit till he was no longer involved.   Same as the founders at Home Depot.   If you see an 15-20 year associate at Home Depot they more than likely make 25.00 bucks an hour and are probably millionaires in stock.   Then they hired Robert Nardelli who took a profit at all costs mentality and almost ruined them.


I saw before you talked about the military and starting your own business. This is the first I have seen you mention school.   I'd love to know who is teaching you this shit.   I personally have a few friends with MBA's from UofM which I believe is one of the best business schools in the world.   They are both polar opposites of your beliefs.


----------



## Luxx (Oct 15, 2012)

Little Wing said:


> Walmart Is America's First Welfare Queen Superstore | Addicting Info
> 
> Walmart receives between 25 and 40 percent of all food stamp spending.  Of course Walmart's slave wages force all of its employees to depend  heavily on $2.66 billion  in government help every year. The company that brought in $448 billion  in sales last year, the super concrete-laden seller of brightly colored  crap, gobbles up food stamps faster than land.  Walmart?s ridiculously low wages and deliberate underemployment keep  their workers just rich enough to not be living in a dumpster co-op, but  poor enough to be eligible for food stamps. Seeing as Walmart is the  reason why countless Americans go on Food Stamps in the first place, one  could say this is a low-cost orgy of irony.



This is why I try my hardest not to go in there. That place is a shit hole.


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## LAM (Oct 15, 2012)

Luxx said:


> This is why I try my hardest not to go in there. That place is a shit hole.



I don't shop there and when I used to do work for them I would ass rape them every time I could.  it might have started off being a good company but it's not anymore. fuck wallmart and fuck the greedy ass waltons


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## Luxx (Oct 15, 2012)

LAM said:


> I don't shop there and when I used to do work for them I would ass rape them every time I could.  it might have started off being a good company but it's not anymore. fuck wallmart and fuck the greedy ass waltons



Lol reps when I get to my Mac.


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## hoyle21 (Oct 15, 2012)

LAM said:


> I don't shop there and when I used to do work for them I would ass rape them every time I could.  it might have started off being a good company but it's not anymore. fuck wallmart and fuck the greedy ass waltons



I do 100% of my shopping at either Costco or my local mom and pop grocer.


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## hoyle21 (Oct 15, 2012)

Costco for the record is another company that takes care if their employees.   The last I heard the average Costco associate makes 17 an hour, and is more profitable than Walmart's Sam's Club.


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## Swiper (Oct 15, 2012)

Little Wing said:


> *Walmart's slave wages force all of its employees to depend  heavily on $2.66 billion  in government help every year.*



why would someone apply and work for "slave labor" wages? why wouldn't they just get a job elsewhere?  if they accept the job they agree on the wage. if they don't like the wages, don't work there. it's pretty simple.


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## hoyle21 (Oct 15, 2012)

Swiper said:


> why would someone apply and work for "slave labor" wages? why wouldn't they just get a job elsewhere?  if they accept the job they agree on the wage. if they don't like the wages, don't work there. it's pretty simple.



Im sure a lot do move on, others probably can't for a variety of reasons.


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## jay_steel (Oct 15, 2012)

Dale Mabry said:


> Why is water down because of environmentalists?



The EPA caused a drought in CA in 2009 because of the delta smelt. Many farmers lost their tree's because they could not even irrigate there land. It reduced the final yield for the farmers and for the next couple years due to the damage of the trees from 2009 it affected the next years yield too. An almond tree can technically last for 2 years with out water a fully mature tree. But the tree will go into survival mode and not produce with no water and the next year not produce as much even with water to help protect it.

However many farmers had baby trees that were either not producing yet or just started to produce. A year with no water for younger trees is death. So what happens is the farmer invests 300k on trees and even more money prepping the land and pollinating ect. So the total years cost is close to 450k-500k for younger trees for lets say 300 acres. Now those trees had to be pulled because they did not survive and the famer is all ready at a loss because his mature trees did not produce. That put many farmers at over a 700k lose per 300 acres. Now some farms are smaller and some are larger. Then the next year they did not produce as many either. So the EPA fucked us with the regulations. 

This is what the trees looked like in summer






What they should have looked like


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## hoyle21 (Oct 15, 2012)

You lost me at the first sentence, can you rewrite it without blaming the EPA for the weather?


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## hoyle21 (Oct 15, 2012)

P.S. Im now boycotting almonds.


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## Little Wing (Oct 15, 2012)

Jujube - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia  here. these do well in drought. you should have thought of this 30 years ago.


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## Little Wing (Oct 15, 2012)

hoyle21 said:


> You lost me at the first sentence, can you rewrite it without blaming the EPA for the weather?



don't you get it? he's allowed to make excuses. it's perfectly fine that he didn't plan ahead etc.


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## Little Wing (Oct 15, 2012)

almonds are too good to boycott.


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## hoyle21 (Oct 15, 2012)

Little Wing said:


> don't you get it? he's allowed to make excuses. it's perfectly fine that he didn't plan ahead etc.



He's clearly chose the wrong crop.   The educated farmers are talked about in this story: http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2012...nt-program-paying-farmers-not-to-plant-crops/

Isn't it welfare when you get payed to not work?


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## Little Wing (Oct 15, 2012)

no when YOU get paid to not work it's FINE. when OTHER people do it's welfare.


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## LAM (Oct 15, 2012)

jay_steel said:


> My overhead for farming has gone up over 40k a year the past 3 years due to the larger companies having to pay more taxes. Where I get my spray from, electricity, tractors, maintenance equipment, fuel, and ect. I have to buy those from larger companies which are charging more now, due to the tax increases and they are having to pay more and so on.



there have been no tax increases for large firms.  do you not verify this stuff on the IRS website yourself or with your own tax accountant?

large firms constantly increase their prices for goods and services to account for increasing inflation and will tell buyers what ever they have to to pass those costs on.  you should read the Biege Book at the federal reserve website it talks about all this stuff


----------



## LAM (Oct 15, 2012)

Swiper said:


> why would someone apply and work for "slave labor" wages? why wouldn't they just get a job elsewhere?  if they accept the job they agree on the wage. if they don't like the wages, don't work there. it's pretty simple.



and where exactly are these jobs? in the US the service sector employees 80% of the US workforce and is paying hourly wages are between $8-$14, once adjusted for inflation it comes out to $2.2-$5/hr in 1990
's dollars.

inflation effects those who earn the least the most and it only gets worst every year it never gets better.  and 80% of the US population lives in the metro area so those wages buy even less than those earning the same wages in the non-metro area.  

in 2001 my job in R&D in telecommunications was off-shored to India because US teleco company's were not investing in the copper infrastructure anymore they were focusing on the wireless side.  silicon valley was flooded with guys like me with dual engineering degrees, etc. all fighting over a couple of jobs.  so for people on the lower end of the education ladder it's even harder to "just find a better paying job".  I don't understand what world some of you live in, it's like a bubble in your head but not the same reality the rest of us live in.


----------



## oufinny (Oct 15, 2012)

LAM said:


> there have been no tax increases for large firms.  do you not verify this stuff on the IRS website yourself or with your own tax accountant?
> 
> large firms constantly increase their prices for goods and services to account for increasing inflation and will tell buyers what ever they have to to pass those costs on.  you should read the Biege Book at the federal reserve website it talks about all this stuff



All true but LAM, working man who farms have time to read that book?  Uh no, just like many of us, no one has the time for that.


----------



## oufinny (Oct 15, 2012)

Dale Mabry said:


> Why is water down because of environmentalists?



Its not.  Water out west is transported mainly in large diameter concrete and PVC pipe; I know this because I worked in the pipeline industry for a few years and bought HDPE in UT for jobs out there.  The PVC lobby is the west's worst enemy because this medium of transport leaks up to 30% of what is originally transported and is brittle.  If the west wants to get serious about water conservation, it would start using HDPE pipe like the rest of the country does that has a 40+ year life span (actually much longer in the larger thickness/diameters).  This will NEVER be public unless you have access to the industry information that few ever learn.  I was happy to get out of it, unbelievably corrupt between the steel lobby and the aforementioned PVC lobby like so many industries in this country.


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## Swiper (Oct 15, 2012)

LAM said:


> and where exactly are these jobs? in the US the service sector employees 80% of the US workforce and is paying hourly wages are between $8-$14, once adjusted for inflation it comes out to $2.2-$5/hr in 1990
> 's dollars.
> 
> inflation effects those who earn the least the most and it only gets worst every year it never gets better.  and 80% of the US population lives in the metro area so those wages buy even less than those earning the same wages in the non-metro area.
> ...




you talk a lot, but give no solutions to your imaginary problems at walmart.  next time post some solutions.   it's pretty simple as I've stated in my previous post.


----------



## LAM (Oct 15, 2012)

Swiper said:


> you talk a lot, but give no solutions to your imaginary problems at walmart.  next time post some solutions.   it's pretty simple as I've stated in my previous post.



I have no problems your the one that can't comprehend basic math and econ.  there was a job shortage in the US in the 70's and the population has increased almost 100M people since then and they have been off-shoring jobs for decades so business owners can increase their profits by farming out work to lower wage country's.

they would not have made a pre-exisiting problem worst if there was any intentions on having to fix it have you not figured this out yet.


----------



## Swiper (Oct 16, 2012)

LAM said:


> I have no problems your the one that can't comprehend basic math and econ.  there was a job shortage in the US in the 70's and the population has increased almost 100M people since then and they have been off-shoring jobs for decades so business owners can increase their profits by farming out work to lower wage country's.
> 
> they would not have made a pre-exisiting problem worst if there was any intentions on having to fix it have you not figured this out yet.



uh?


----------



## oufinny (Oct 16, 2012)

LAM said:


> I have no problems your the one that can't comprehend basic math and econ.  there was a job shortage in the US in the 70's and the population has increased almost 100M people since then and they have been off-shoring jobs for decades so business owners can increase their profits by farming out work to lower wage country's.
> 
> they would not have made a pre-exisiting problem worst if there was any intentions on having to fix it have you not figured this out yet.



Pretty straightforward Swiper if you ask me.  Fact are all too often inconvenient as they don't fit into an ideology or whatever other "facts" we deem true.  I would venture to say you could find the fact LAM is presenting in about an hour with google, probably half that if you are serious.


----------



## LAM (Oct 16, 2012)

I was working at a Jiffy Lube today on their network and it was early in the a.m and they had no customers yet.  The MOD was walking around doing stuff in the repair area and I was talking to the service tech.   he was telling me how he was looking at this job cutting meat in Missouri but he had to go the library to use the computer to complete the online application.  the job was paying $13 and you could be up to $15 in a couple of years, it was non-union but he was a certified meat cutter.  he said he brother has been out there for a decade doing the same thing but he had to leave for a little because the cold and the bursitis in his shoulder.

I was thinking to myself WTF is a grown man who had to be in his mid 40's or older going to do with $13-$15/hr. so what is Jiffy Lube paying him if that's good money?


----------



## NVRBDR (Oct 16, 2012)

It's not good money, There are "the have" and the "have nots" 

based on his relative perspective,  this guy bought the idea that 15 bucks an hour is it for him... It is what is is, the mind is a powerful thing, he believes it's his limit, therefore it is.


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## Swiper (Oct 17, 2012)

oufinny said:


> Pretty straightforward Swiper if you ask me.  Fact are all too often inconvenient as they don't fit into an ideology or whatever other "facts" we deem true.  I would venture to say you could find the fact LAM is presenting in about an hour with google, probably half that if you are serious.




i'm still confused on what LAM would do to fix the problem with lower paying jobs.  what would HE do?  i see what he's saying about the problem but gives no solutions. what's LAM"S SOLUTION?  does he want to raise the minimum wage to $25.00 an hour?


----------



## Big Smoothy (Oct 17, 2012)

The debate was the typical.

Nothing was seriously discussed.

Nothing new; no new news.


----------



## LAM (Oct 17, 2012)

Swiper said:


> i'm still confused on what LAM would do to fix the problem with lower paying jobs.  what would HE do?  i see what he's saying about the problem but gives no solutions. what's LAM"S SOLUTION?  does he want to raise the minimum wage to $25.00 an hour?



low pay is the nature of retail and the service sector and  only those that are supervisors and managers make wages above the poverty level and they account for only about 10% of those employed at such businesses.  this is why I have been saying for years the entire US economy has been designed to transfer wealth up the ladder to business owners.  all the major clothing stores, major shore stores, fast food chains etc. are all subsidiaries of larger company's so they all follow the same exact business models.  wage "increases" in these industry's are all consumed by inflation or the rising costs of food and energy every year nor are they a stepping stone to any type of higher paying job or career they are all dead-end jobs.

pretty much all jobs not in the FIRE sector of the economy fall into this category.  jobs in the FIRE sector are the only high paying jobs but that sector does not employ a large section of the US workforce and these jobs are actually part of the destructive forces of the US economy because the majority of their "profits" come from increasing debt.

now add in the fact that the US has the 3rd lowest rate of labor unionization in the OECD only adds to the low wage problem in the service sector.  county's with low rates of labor unions suffer from low wages, empirical data collected from the economists in the OECD over the past 30+ years and in over 100 country's has shown this.  25% of the US workforce suffers from low wages and another 20% is underemployed and real unemployment is closer to 15-20% than the bullshit BLS number of 8%.

all of these long term structural problems with the US economy and what is the major topic of debate?  taxes...time and time again tax cuts favor those at the top of the wage ladder only causing more inequality in wealth and income further increasing the gap between the middle and the top.  this only makes the economy more sluggish and more unstable as private wealth is not used to fund public and capital projects.  which is why the super wealthy continue to gain and the US infrastructure etc. continues to fall to shambles.


----------



## Swiper (Oct 17, 2012)

LAM said:


> low pay is the nature of retail and the service sector and  only those that are supervisors and managers make wages above the poverty level and they account for only about 10% of those employed at such businesses.  this is why I have been saying for years the entire US economy has been designed to transfer wealth up the ladder to business owners.  all the major clothing stores, major shore stores, fast food chains etc. are all subsidiaries of larger company's so they all follow the same exact business models.  wage "increases" in these industry's are all consumed by inflation or the rising costs of food and energy every year nor are they a stepping stone to any type of higher paying job or career they are all dead-end jobs.
> 
> pretty much all jobs not in the FIRE sector of the economy fall into this category.  jobs in the FIRE sector are the only high paying jobs but that sector does not employ a large section of the US workforce and these jobs are actually part of the destructive forces of the US economy because the majority of their "profits" come from increasing debt.
> 
> ...



ok your solution is to raise taxes. got it.


----------



## Zaphod (Oct 22, 2012)

bio-chem said:


> thanks for clarifying that for us. Bottom line Obama hasn't delivered the world he promised us 4 years ago, and 4 more years isn't going to change that.



Corporate profits are at an all-time high.  When do you think the job creators will start doing so?


----------



## Swiper (Oct 22, 2012)

Zaphod said:


> Corporate profits are at an all-time high.  When do you think the job creators will start doing so?



I think most of it has to do with the uncertainty about obamacare,  most companies are just going to drop their health care plans for employees and pay the fines. it'll be cheaper that way.  

and since republicans like corporate welfare,  hiring will pick up if Romney gets elected. this way if companies get financially strapped govt will be there to bail them out again.


----------



## LAM (Oct 22, 2012)

Swiper said:


> I think most of it has to do with the uncertainty about obamacare,  most companies are just going to drop their health care plans for employees and pay the fines. it'll be cheaper that way.



not an option for large firms after a certain amount of employees they are required to offer it.  *over the decades many large firms have shifted the cost of healthcare back down onto the employee at higher and higher percentages.  many did this in response to the government taking away the ability for large firms to actually right off a subsidy on their taxes...fucking greedy corporate bastards*

you are totally blind as to how US large firms work in reality.  they do almost nothing if there is not some form of subsidy or free money from the government.


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## DOMS (Oct 23, 2012)

Source.








BOCA RATON, FL - Saying that the high-value target represented a major threat to their most vital objectives, Obama administration officials confirmed tonight that former governor Mitt Romney was killed by a predator drone while attending a presidential debate at Lynn University.

Sources said the drone attack, which occurred at approximately 10:10 p.m. Monday night, obliterated Romney in the middle of a statement on Chinese-purchased U.S. securities, sending his dismembered limbs and internal organs into the audience and leaving a smoking pile of charred flesh and bone in his seat.

"The information we have received from military personnel in the field indicate that tonight's drone strike took out Mitt Romney, a former businessman the Obama administration has long considered a serious danger, especially in past few weeks," said White House press secretary Jay Carney, describing the operation as "an unmitigated success." "The president personally authorized the strike earlier this evening, and as soon as we had visual confirmation that the target in the drone's sights was, in fact, Mitt Romney, we eliminated him."

"We can all rest a little easier tonight knowing we have rid the world of a man who has been a continual menace to us," Carney added. "I know I will."

Pentagon officials confirmed that tactical teams were able to pinpoint the former Republican presidential candidate's location with intelligence gathered through surveillance, reported sightings of the target, a campaign calendar posted on the Romney 2012 website, and testimony from confidential informants.

According to eyewitness reports, when Romney saw the unmanned combat vehicle enter the college auditorium, he promptly stood up and shrieked in terror before the device launched an AGM-114 Hellfire missile that "took him apart."

"Our information indicated that the target, who had been recently spotted in Ohio, Virginia, and Colorado, was traveling all around America and had access to a fortune consisting of hundreds of millions of dollars," a military spokesperson said of the mission to "find and kill" the Detroit-born politician "no matter what the cost." "When we received credible evidence that Romney was going to be in the vicinity of Lynn University the evening of Oct. 22, we realized our opportunity had arisen."

The drone strike, which killed three of Romney's sons sitting near the debate stage, reportedly also took the lives of at least 45 civilians, including 12 Lynn University students, nine Secret Service agents, first daughter Malia Obama, and two cameramen.

"Military operations of this ilk are dangerous, and occasionally a few innocent civilians get caught in the crossfire," said Carney, describing the lost arm and severe second-degree facial burns inflicted on debate moderator Bob Schieffer as "necessary collateral damage." "However, we must realize that this is a price we pay when we face our greatest challenges."

At press time, President Obama was reportedly wiping his face clean of Romney's blood and had removed his late opponent's severed head from his lap to begin his closing remarks.


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