# More questions on Bulking



## FMJ (Jan 18, 2010)

I'm not one to make things over complicated but when shit don't add up, it don't add up.
Some may have read my previous posts on trying to gain. I've been on an attempted bulking phase for a while now. 
Last week after being on 4500 calories for something like 6 weeks, I gained 5 pounds but since it was all in that last week, I was concerned that I wasn't gaining the right weight so I decided to go down to 3600 calories. Been doing that for this past week and now I lost half a pound.
This prompted a few more questions that I hope some of you guys can help clarify.

1. At any time during a "Bulk" diet should one LOSE any weight? Should one fluctuate to a weight which is LESS that the week before?

2. How long does one typically stay on a bulking phase? I've been on one for the last 8 weeks and only gained 5 pounds. Probably all fat and water.
What is the typical weight gain target amount while on a bulk phase?

3. Does cardio have it's place during a bulk? Doesn't seem to make sense. If I'm eating to gain, why would I spend the excess calories on cardio? Raising my metabolism during a bulk seems counter-productive to me.

4. What macro percentages are best for a bulking phase? I'm currently doing 45%c, 30%p and 25%f. Should I be doing 45%p, 30%c and 25%f during the bulking phase or should I save the latter macro numbers for the cutting phase?

5. As mentioned, this past week I reduced my diet from 4500 down to 3600 and I lost half a pound. Should I be concerned about this? Should I give it more time before adjusting the numbers?

Thanks folks. Sorry for the paranoia!


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## kyoun1e (Jan 18, 2010)

How do you know what you're consuming? Are you weighing your food?

At 5'8" 164, your maintenance cals should be far lower and you should be gaining. Even taking into consideration lower age/high metabolism. Often, when things aren't adding up it's because someone isn't tracking their intake accurately.

Also, if you're bulking at 18-20% BF bulking could backfire. Partitioning of nutrients is far less efficient above 15%. 

KY


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## FMJ (Jan 18, 2010)

hey KY
yes, I'm tracking and digitally weighting every morsel. My numbers are accurate within a couple hundred calories for sure. 
My BF is certainly in the 18-20% range. You're saying I shouldn't be bulking while in that range?


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## Motorcycled00d (Jan 18, 2010)

Yup, cut down before you do another bulk.


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## kyoun1e (Jan 18, 2010)

FMJ said:


> hey KY
> yes, I'm tracking and digitally weighting every morsel. My numbers are accurate within a couple hundred calories for sure.
> My BF is certainly in the 18-20% range. You're saying I shouldn't be bulking while in that range?



Yeah.

Everyone's different and their bodies look and behave differently at various BF percentages, but I'd say in general you cut down to 10-12% and bulk from there. Then repeat. Bulking at higher fat %'s will lead most to more fat gains than they want.

You should post some pics.

KY


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## FMJ (Jan 18, 2010)

It's interesting, I know I'm at least 18% bf and yet I do have some hint of abs. At least the illusion of 4 of them. So I didn't think I was too far gone to start a bulk. To directly quote from the Sticky thread written by Built,  _"If you're significantly overfat, plan to cut first, then build muscle. If you're just a little soft, but not truly fat, start building first."
_I really think I'm the second of those two descriptions.
I guess I can revert to a cutting but it's winter, bulking season. I would have rather put on a good 10 or 15 before cutting.


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## kyoun1e (Jan 18, 2010)

Just went back and read some of your other posts. You're older (like me...I'm 41) and it sounds like you just got back in the gym after a layoff. 

I wonder if it's premature to jump right into either bulking or cutting just yet. You may want to eat at maintenance for a while while getting your body in the groove. During this time, you can find your maintenance, nail your macros, strategize your diet, and prepare your body for the next phase --whether bulking or cutting -- when it's ready to do so and handle more volume. 

And if you've been out of the gym a while, you could experience "newbie gains" -- one of the only segments of the universe where you could both lose fat and gain muscle (unless you're on drugs fo course).

Seems like you're in a rush. I understand that though. I remember last year at this time I was kinda in your shoes. 

KY


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## downtown (Jan 18, 2010)

I can say this, everybody is different.  Myself i bulk at 6000cals and up, but i will have a 6pack the whole time, my metabolism/job just wont allow my BF to raise.  Anything below 3500cals is a cutter for me.  

My advice would be to stay at the 3600cals, and split your meals into 6-8 meals a day just divid them up equally and eat every 2hours, this will raise your metabolism.  Since your body is getting feed every 2 hours it will no longer need to store fat, the excess cals will go for energy and muscle building, as your body adjusts and you notice the recomposition effects you can start raising the calories again and maintain the same effect as long as the cals are coming from clean food sources.  

I hope this helps you out, best of luck to you.


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## Motorcycled00d (Jan 18, 2010)

1. At any time during a "Bulk" diet should one LOSE any weight? Should one fluctuate to a weight which is LESS that the week before?

No matter what you can see your weight fluctuate on a scale.  Make sure when you weigh in that your doing it at the same time of the day, after the same amount of meals.  If you weight yourself monday morning at 200 pounds, and the next monday you weigh yourself at night at 210, that extra weight is coming from food and water.  

2. How long does one typically stay on a bulking phase? I've been on one for the last 8 weeks and only gained 5 pounds. Probably all fat and water.
What is the typical weight gain target amount while on a bulk phase?

Length of a bulk or cut pretty much depends on your goals.  If you want to gain 10 pounds, bulk until you gain 10 pounds ya know?  Everyone is different, some people can gain more muscle quicker than others, but a pretty safe bet is to aim for 1 or 2 pounds per week.  That means that you need a caloric surplus of 3500, or 7000 calories per week.

3. Does cardio have it's place during a bulk? Doesn't seem to make sense. If I'm eating to gain, why would I spend the excess calories on cardio? Raising my metabolism during a bulk seems counter-productive to me.

Overall health yes, the cardiovascular benefit is nice and to keep good health, but if your strictly trying to gain mass, than I PERSONALLY wouldn't.  A lot of people do a little cardio during their bulk though.

4. What macro percentages are best for a bulking phase? I'm currently doing 45%c, 30%p and 25%f. Should I be doing 45%p, 30%c and 25%f during the bulking phase or should I save the latter macro numbers for the cutting phase?

Again, everyone has their own ideas on this.  I don't follow specific macros, I just balance it out as I eat each meal and am in my last month of a very successful bulk.  It also depends on what time your eating the meal.  After workouts you can really load up on carbs, a lot of people recommend 70 to 100gs, but I personally wouldn't eat 100 grams any other time of the day at once.  Many Recommend a 40P 40C 20F, but if you want to plan it out the best rule of thumb is 1 or 1.5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight, and .5 or a little more grams of good fats per pound of bodyweight.  Fill the rest of your calories with good carbs.

5. As mentioned, this past week I reduced my diet from 4500 down to 3600 and I lost half a pound. Should I be concerned about this? Should I give it more time before adjusting the numbers?

Use this to calculate your BMR - BMR Calculator

Then use this to calculate your daily maintenance needs - Harris Benedict Equation

Then use Fitday.com to create a good diet plan, it will tell you all the calories and macros, as well as vitamins and minerals.  

Eat 500 calories more than your maintenance to bulk, or 500 less to cut.  After a couple weeks, make small adjustments if you need to.

Good luck brotha!


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## T_man (Jan 18, 2010)

Motorcycled00d said:


> 1. At any time during a "Bulk" diet should one LOSE any weight? Should one fluctuate to a weight which is LESS that the week before?
> 
> No matter what you can see your weight fluctuate on a scale.  Make sure when you weigh in that your doing it at the same time of the day, after the same amount of meals.  If you weight yourself monday morning at 200 pounds, and the next monday you weigh yourself at night at 210, that extra weight is coming from food and water.
> 
> ...



this


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## Motorcycled00d (Jan 18, 2010)

??


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## FMJ (Jan 19, 2010)

Motorcycled00d said:


> ??


 
lol... He means He agree's with your post.

You know, I've been brewing this over in my mind all night and the basic claim is: Anyone over 18%bf (give or take) who begins a bulk cycle is more likely to gain fat than muscle.
I have tried to find the facts on this but I can't so can someone please give me the science behind this?

Also, If I do decided to revert to cutting diet. How to I approach this? Do I need to ease in or can I just jump in to the new calorie numbers?

on a side note.. the last 6 days that I've been on 3600 cal, I've lost a pound and a quarter. However my BMR+activity says I need 2600. 
I'm don't know which number to use for a deficiet. Do I use something under 2600 even though I'm losing weight while on 3600?


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## downtown (Jan 19, 2010)

Why not just try carb cycling during your bulk?  Even if your BF is high you can still gain muscle and loose fat, you wont loose fat as fast but you will still loose it without sacrificing muscle.


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## Motorcycled00d (Jan 19, 2010)

FMJ said:


> lol... He means He agree's with your post.
> 
> You know, I've been brewing this over in my mind all night and the basic claim is: Anyone over 18%bf (give or take) who begins a bulk cycle is more likely to gain fat than muscle.
> I have tried to find the facts on this but I can't so can someone please give me the science behind this?
> ...




Ohhh gotcha hah.

Well, a lot of people say that the higher the bodyfat the less effective nutrient partitioning is to building muscle.  I think someone might have said that earlier in this thread as well.  Personally, I don't know.  It's not like you won't build muscle, it just might be more effective at a lower body weight.  On the other hand, most bodyfat testing isn't THAT accurate, unless your doing underwater testing.  

Do what your comfortable with.  If you 18%, but don't look it, or feel it, you might just have different body composition and it throws the BF tester off.  Maybe you drink a shit load of water, or eat a lot and that throws it off as well.  

Personally, I would jump into the lowered calories, or maybe stay at maintenance for a couple weeks before you do it.  

Remember, even though you lost a pound and a quarter, that might not be actually body tissue.  You reduced your calories = less food and water in your body when you weigh.  That is probably where the weight loss came from.  Drop 500 below the BMR+activity, add in 20 or 30 minutes of cardio 4 days a week and lift real heavy with lower rep full body workouts 

Good luck!


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## Motorcycled00d (Jan 19, 2010)

I meant bodyFAT, not bodyWEIGHT in the first paragraph


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## FMJ (Jan 19, 2010)

I've actually decided to bail on the bulking and do a cut first. Some of the things you guys said did make more sense for what I was seeing. 
Gaining 4 pounds in a week can only be bad gains. I figure I'm only at 18% bf and if my metabolism is as high as I believe it is, it's not gonna take me too long to get down below 12-15%
I'll stick with my current training and have adjusted my calories from 3600 to 2200 comprised of 40%p, 30%c and 30%f. I'm gonna do my best to keep my lbm and hopefully, I will take out yet one more variable for failure.


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## T_man (Jan 19, 2010)

About the macros as long as you hit around 1-1.2g of protein per lb of LBM and get all your vitamins/minerals and essential fats in then the rest of the macros can come from anywhere.


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## FMJ (Jan 20, 2010)

Hey T-man
Well, being 168 and 18%bf, I'm figuring I'm looking at about 137lbs LBM.
My 2200 calories breaks  down to 220g protein, 165g carbs and 74g fat so I think I'll make good progress now. Get myself down to a reasonable bodyfat so I can start a bulk.


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