# Milk Thistle ??? good for the liver, bad for androgen receptors



## Arnold (Feb 13, 2010)

*Milk Thistle – good for the liver, bad for androgen receptors *

For years steroid users have been taking Milk Thistle (Silybum marianum, which contains the polyphenolic flavonoid silymarin and the active component silibinin) to protect their livers from potentially hepatoxic oral steroids. In the Anabolics series of books, William Llewellyn talks about using this stuff as a liver protector. Well, he’s wrong…yeah, it’ll protect your liver, but it’s also going to reduce the effectiveness of the entire cycle, by reducing androgen receptor transactivation and also by inhibiting the IGF-I signaling pathway.

*Less androgen receptor activity + less IGF-1 = less muscle and strength.*

MuscleTech uses milk thistle in some of their products as does Universal (it’s in their Animal Pack and some others), as does Muscle Pharm and MHP (who stupidly included it in a product designed to boost testosterone). Anabolic Innovations includes Milk Thistle in a product called “Cycle Support“- so clearly this stuff is being marketed heavily towards steroid users. Llewellyn even includes it in his “Liver Stabil” product….but users will pretty quickly find out that it’s making them gain less muscle and strength.

In any case, I’ve never been a fan of this kind of thing, i.e. taking one thing to stop side effects from another…robbing Peter to pay Paul, or Ringo or whatever…. To my way of thinking, if your dose is too high, it’s too high, and adding another chemical into the mix (herbal or not), is not the solution. Sure, you can take a ton of steroids with liver protectors and anti-estrogens and all kinds of other stuff…but why wouldn’t you just cut the dose down and not take all the other crap?

Effects of SM and SB on whole cell AR levels (a), transcription activity of the AR promoter (b) and ligand-binding activity of the AR (c). The upper panel in (a) shows a representative western blot analysis of total AR protein levels in LNCaP cells and Ponceau S staining, representing protein loading. The lower panel in (a) is a densitometric analysis of total AR protein levels from three independent experiments.

Effects of SM and SB on whole cell AR levels (a), transcription activity of the AR promoter (b) and ligand-binding activity of the AR (c). The upper panel in (a) shows a representative western blot analysis of total AR protein levels in LNCaP cells and Ponceau S staining, representing protein loading. The lower panel in (a) is a densitometric analysis of total AR protein levels from three independent experiments.

We know that estrogen is necessary for optimal growth, so why would we mega-dose on steroids, but then take an anti-estrogen with them? Our gains will effectively be reduced in a similar way to simply taking a lower dose – which would obviously cost less (the savings from lowering the dose + not buying the anti-estrogen). Using a lower (non-side effect causing) dose seems to make more sense (or using non-aromatizing androgens). So why would we take a ton of (potentially toxic) oral steroids with a liver protector? What if I could make the case that taking a liver protector (*in this case, Milk Thistle) will actually cause your entire cycle to be less effective?

I’ve been doing some research into Milk Thistle recently, because it’s the most commonly used liver protector for steroid users. It’s sold at GNC, Vitamin Shoppe, etc…and it not only works to protect the liver, it’s also pretty cheap. For years, mediocre supplement designers have been slamming this stuff into any formula that could be liver toxic, and then forgetting about it. It’s a no-brainer (literally). People just cram the stuff in their supplements without doing any real research.

The problem with Milk Thistle is that it blocks your androgen receptors, thereby making the steroids (androgens) you’re taking less effective – this is why it has been studied as a possible chemoprotective agent for androgen dependent cancers. The active component in Milk Thistle effectively reduces nuclear androgen receptor levels (click for the full study), and down-regulates several androgen-regulated genes primarily by inhibiting the transactivation activity of the AR, and can also inhibit nuclear localization of the androgen receptor. Admittedly this study only looks at certain site-specific androgen receptor cells but I see no reason in the available data to think this isn’t the case elsewhere. I’ve looked at several related studies, and I think that this stuff simply isn’t the best choice for liver protection.

In fact, there is additional information available that strongly suggests that Milk Thistle will also have an inhibitory effect on the insulin-like growth factor I receptor-mediated signaling pathway. All in all, there seems to be a reasonable expectation that this stuff is anti-anabolic.

Nobody is right all of the time, and I’ve probably thought this stuff was a good idea in the past (like Llewellyn and a lot of other people), but the truth is that Milk Thistle looks like an extremely bad idea for use on a cycle – at least if you want your cycle to be as effective as possible. I know that these studies aren’t perfect (i.e. they don’t examine healthy, weight training individuals, etc…), but I’m still reasonably confidant that Milk Thistle will inhibit your gains from a cycle, and that’s the bottom line.

I wonder how many of these guys will be reformulating their products now?

Source: Milk Thistle – good for the liver, bad for androgen receptors | Anthony Roberts


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## GearsMcGilf (Feb 13, 2010)

Interesting.  I've been pounding milk thistle the entire time I've been abusing orals.  Maybe I'll pack those fuckers in till I'm ready to come off and see if it makes a difference.....other than my liver falling outta my ass after a coupla weeks.


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## Dark Geared God (Feb 13, 2010)

What about LIV52. i hread thats good stuff


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## theCaptn' (Feb 13, 2010)

who fucking knows what to believe these days . . . .


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## Pirate! (Feb 13, 2010)

Nevermind that the author is an idiot with an agenda.


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## theCaptn' (Feb 13, 2010)

Pirate! said:


> Nevermind that the author is an idiot with an agenda.


 
 . .please elaborate Mr Pirate


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## MAC24/7 (Feb 14, 2010)

milkthistle dosnt help u..ur young bro


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## dave 236 (Feb 19, 2010)

Pirate! said:


> Nevermind that the author is an idiot with an agenda.


Yes advice on worthless supplements from the marketer of var10 and winn50.Thats the ole pot and kettle story.


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