# what do I take next???



## carmineb (Mar 3, 2011)

Well coming off a havoc cycle, got a few more days...  To be honest, with some of the stresses in my life, I was not as geared up to do my max effort in diet, nutrition, drinking water or working out  and with that, I have lost around 15 pounds and probably some was muscle yet see improvements elsewhere as far as muscle....

I have to do a PCT.  My credit cards were shot so I bought a local pct product ath is anti estrogenic and had tribulus and long something or another in it for natural test booster...  that will run say 3-4 weeks and I am hoping the stresses taht prevented me from taking advantage of this cycle , as I should have are gone.

Waht next?

Waht should I considering giving a go at?  With the little contest thing going on here and with the many supplement companies, I want to preorder all the supplements and pct now, (within next few weeks)....

I want Mass gains, I tend to be on the fat side, I gain weight in the wrong places fast so just pure bulking up I will have much to lose....  

I weigh in at 220 right now at 5'9".  I was 245-250 when I started going to the gym 4 mos ago

first time in 10 years I got into 36 jeans so traht is good for me, for now....


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## tigger1 (Mar 3, 2011)

go to the ironmaglabs site above.  they have great pro hormones.


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## Nedster (Mar 3, 2011)

Test-E & Trenbolone , Test will give you the bulking you require whilst the tren wiil help eleviate your unwanted fat !!!


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## djm6464 (Mar 3, 2011)

the guy has been going to the gym for 4months, how can anyone advise any anabolics
ontop of the fact hes saying hes not in great shape....over 15%bf dont cycle

id say food and a good program will do more for you right now

and im seriously wondering bout that pct for havoc.....hope it works out for you


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## carmineb (Mar 3, 2011)

couple of things....  yes, been going since 2nd week of October....(first month, I barely did 1 set maybe 2 exercises per body part, i almost quit cuz I never thought I could get back into shape ...)

initially did an antiaromatiser product reversitrol from iforce and pre post workout bcaas , etc.....  did all that after first 6 weeks....  took me to the 10th week.

went to pink magic and didnt see any real magic but I had it so I continued to just go thru bottle.  Started havoc beginning of 4th month.

Started HAvoc about 3 1/2 weeks ago..  at first I saw strong workout rage and some strength increases but I had started to overtrain since my volume went up and i was doing rest pause, drop sets, 1/4 reps at the stretch point for burns, i basically had to tone down to 1 bodypart a day one work out per body part a week.  taht I think was a mistake for me since having had less volume, even to failure or using the drop sets or super sets I was fine ....  

About steroids. I didnt know havoc was a steroid, I thought it was a prohormone when I got it< I got it sight unseen cuz my training partner had used it and loved it so I found it and bought it up.  my local nutrition store later told me it wsa a steroid but the pct for it isnt super huge, just an antiestrogen and some herbal test boosters. the product he sold me last night was:  Black Skull "Kickstart"  for a PCT

if my card was available, i would have gone to ironmaglabs for theirs I guess...


About taking prohormones or otehrwise....  I am 50... my testosterone is as dead as a floorboard, well it was 4 mos ago, ...  lets say even viagara wasnt always successful but now I dont even take that and I am always pretty much ready, even tho my prostate is not used to it and getting mad at me!...

taking a prohormone or a steroid, I guess I am looking to build up from wehre I am at and try to be as "efficient" as I can be.

My local nutrition store suggested a DMZ plus one other product in a stack pill they want me to do next, (in 3 weeks)

He has 2 and 3 prohormone chemicals stacked in other pilsl with single and double metyls and stuff but he said too strong for me right now, use what you can til it has no more effect before you go higher was what he said to me, they offer some of teh "otehr things" of course on the q-t ...

Since I have come to see this forum as authoritative or at least good information I can listen to and continue to reseaerch it, I wanted to see what you all said....

the jekyll and hyde book and some of teh other ebooks I read the intro infos on line , some suggest prohormones dont work much you ahve to go to steroids, why mess around.  train hard, take the real stuff safely, cycle, change workout you will be big and cut in a year....

so all these voices everywhere , can get confusing....  I can train 12-14 sets for back, chest, legs, and shoulders...   8-10 fortris and bis...  I like doing a hard first workout and alter in week doing a lighet workout for same bodypart...

I have been taking it easy this week and just waiting to rev up for a GOOD cycle of "something".   so I can look good come June.  yes, I'd love a 4 pack, taht cant be unreasonable but I also have 16 1/2 inch arms now, would like to be at 17 1/2 by summer while being more chiselled.

Am I just unreasonable?

I aint looking for pie in teh sky overnight body but if I have to bust my ass in the gym and work thru pain, (hate calves  lol) I want to take whatever supplements I ahve to and try to eat how I ahve to to be as efficient as possible.  kill myself in gym 1 year and get little resutls, not for me, rather do soemthing for 6 months and get results  however I get theere, as long as it is safely

tha is why I am hoping this little thing you all are putting on , (contest or whatever it is being named) might give me some additional motivation, in the end, we all will look better.


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## djm6464 (Mar 3, 2011)

the 'kickstart' supp he gave you looks shit, not a cool guy, and the dude trying to sell you the dmz is the same

if i were you id go see an endo and get your test levels checked

and dont use anymore phs!!!!


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## OutWhey (Mar 3, 2011)

carmineb said:


> Well coming off a havoc cycle, got a few more days... To be honest, with some of the stresses in my life, I was not as geared up to do my max effort in diet, nutrition, drinking water or working out and with that, I have lost around 15 pounds and probably some was muscle yet see improvements elsewhere as far as muscle....
> 
> I have to do a PCT. My credit cards were shot so I bought a local pct product ath is anti estrogenic and had tribulus and long something or another in it for natural test booster... that will run say 3-4 weeks and I am hoping the stresses taht prevented me from taking advantage of this cycle , as I should have are gone.
> 
> ...


 My thoughts below would something great to consider bud 

Beastdrol 
Epistrong 


hcgenerate and n2guard all the way through pct end.
Forma-stanzol 5 pumps am 5 pumps pm


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## carmineb (Mar 3, 2011)

I am listening to and taking in all your suggestioins and the spirit in which each is given andI have appreciated all of them somfar.

Witht he last comment, epistrong , isnt that like havoc which I am just coming off of?  havoc is epistaine....???

beastrol I saw that on the orbitnutrition website.

the other things, I dont recognize ....


The second to last reply:  why do you think I should go off all prohomones or not get into them at all?  I know my test levels are much higher, at least my sex drive is wehre it was when i was 30, which is reassuring..

I did have some rage in the beginning but I think that has to do with hormonal levels CHANGING and the body just getting used tot he higher levels, i no longer have any minor rage, (think of a woman going thru the change of life and fluxuating levels, I thought of it as the same.....  and my prostte was feeling it so I started on some prostate stuff to protect and it has been much better....  

I cant do what a 20 yaer old guy does, I have to get my body slowly getting all its things back in place I guess.

so, what is a reasonable pct for epistaine/havoc?  what compound should I look for , for now since to be honest, if I could have purchased online here, I would have but I was maxed out on the cc.. next time, if I try something, I buy all at once....

about geting a testosterone test done, what test ought I ask for?  did one 3 years ago when I asked doc for testosterone replacement and he checked and the number he got back was around 400 or so, and he said it was within normal range....  I dont know what they test for in a docs office?

if I go to an endocronologist??  (is that what you meant??), might as well get a complete test done..what tests ought I look to have done??

are they expensive?


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## carmineb (Mar 3, 2011)

btw, the kickstart has these as the ingredients, (i copied from another forum to save myself typing it all over again)


Bulgarian Tribulus Terrestris
(20% Protodioscin , 80% steroidal saponins) 133mg

Eurycoma Longifolia Jack 100:1 17mg

Milk Thistle (80% Silymarin) 133mg

4-OHA (Formestane) 50m

I take two a day for the PCT

otherwise, next week I can order from orbit or elsewhere and get soemthing else and start off wtih this for now or stack this and something else


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## Good Grip (Mar 4, 2011)

Hmm.. Im not digging your pct. Id go with something proven like d aspartic acid, found in our TCF-1 and Trans-Resveratrol, found in our Sustain Alpha. TCF-1 will expedite the process of getting your body to produce testosterone and Sustain Alpha will help regulate estrogen. For your Endo visit, get total and free test checked to start. If your budget is tapped out I can hook you up, just send me a private message.


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## TooOld (Mar 4, 2011)

IMO You are wasting a bunch of money of supplements.
I'd see a good HRT doc and get blood work done to get your hormone levels checked.
A simple shot of prescribed test or two a week, proper diet and training might be all you need.


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## AznTomahawk (Mar 5, 2011)

I dont like that pct product. And I would suggest you take some time off in between CYCLES. Dont always listen to salesmen. Get views and do some research. At 50 years old I would consider TRT or HRT if they are a viable option. While on one you could pepper in a DS cycle every now and then to help with the process. DS are hard on the organs so they shouldnt be ran all the time.


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## kajal123 (Mar 5, 2011)

carmineb said:


> I am listening to and taking in all your suggestioins and the spirit in which each is given andI have appreciated all of them somfar.
> 
> Witht he last comment, epistrong , isnt that like havoc which I am just coming off of?  havoc is epistaine....???
> 
> ...



Nice job,,,,its so amazing work in this thred,,,Thanks for the share valuable information here, it will be very helpful for all people?????????..


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## carmineb (Mar 5, 2011)

good grip:  I only hav e 32 posts so far, cant pm anyone, I tried PM'ing u.

too old:  I wanted to get test shots 3 years ago, I felt I was goign to male meopause to be transparent and is why I got the test done at the time....  he didnt prescribe anything even tho I know I had al he symptoms since the test came back normal range in his eyes....

Azntomahawk:  please explain TRT  HRT  ??  What are they?  types of supplements or particupar product name?  DS cycle?

9I apologize for being so green.. reemmber, the only gym talk i used to get when I was younger was how many dissicated liver pills was I taking, how much vit c and Bs, or kelp for thyroid and none of this stuff wsa out there for discussion.  I came back once to work out hard say 20 years ago when EAS and phillips at the time had their stack of vanadyl suphate, creatine, HMB, and i think glutamine at the time....  I completely lmissed the advent of prohormones, had a bottle of andro, said it helped sex drive took it not working out and no one told me at the time i would have needed a pct nor was one suggested on the bottle....  that probably screwed me for a while  (lol)

Just want to get bigger and better than what I had when I was younger and I was not a beast at that time 20 years ago, at 190 , 5'9" an around 14% bodyfat, (at worlds gym at the time they used some hand held machine I hold onto the bars and it tested resistance thru body and knew your bf %)  I'd like to be around 210 and 8%


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## MDR (Mar 5, 2011)

I think you might think about going natural for awhile and dropping some weight.  You didn't give us your bodyfat level, but if it is high, you won't find what you are looking for with Ph's or AAS.  Also, if you are not giving a full effort to diet and training, you might think twice about using anything at all.  HRT is a good thought if you have a deficiency, but if not, I honestly don't think drugs are the solution.


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## carmineb (Mar 5, 2011)

MDR< I have been wondering when to "bulk up"

heck, last time i was at dr's office, I was 245, weighed in at 215 after hmmmm  4 mos, not bad considering I know I have gained another 10 in muscle anyway....  I just dont want to have to bulk up and get too fat again.

I ALWAYS was watching diet like hawk and ttraining, just last few weeks with family crap and court stuff going on, it toook me away from fully functioning efficeintly, not that I would be efficient the next time around...

called the place that recommended the other product I mentioned for pct, guy said , no, you should have been sold arimidex, it is waht he gives for all pcts.....  said it was like $30 for the bottle.

dont know squat about arimidex....  just that it is antiestrogen


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## carmineb (Mar 6, 2011)

bump :  any info on arimidex????


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## Good Grip (Mar 6, 2011)

Carmine, id consider finding a different doctor. If you genuinly feel that he isnt looking out for your best interest and health, start searching for a doctor who will. Ill see if I can pm you.


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## MDR (Mar 6, 2011)

carmineb said:


> MDR< I have been wondering when to "bulk up"
> 
> heck, last time i was at dr's office, I was 245, weighed in at 215 after hmmmm  4 mos, not bad considering I know I have gained another 10 in muscle anyway....  I just dont want to have to bulk up and get too fat again.
> 
> ...



Take a look at the cycle advice in my signature, and if you post all that info up front, we can help you more effectively.  Good luck.


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## carmineb (Mar 7, 2011)

thanks again for all the great advice and time you all have taken in writing...    I am not able to pm anyone, I dont have enough posts yet, I might have to just post a few useless ones just to get my number up  lol  ...

the links for the first cycle, etc...  are good....

but the biggest thing I realize from all thewe talks is this:

what is my baseline?  testosterone levels, etc...  fat percentage and any other test I ought to check......  Taking powerful substances whether prohormone or steroid, one shouldknow fyull well where they are at, how it is affecting their numbers and after cycle, if they are back to normal....  I wa messing wtih some natural boosters, herbal, they were fine, with a reversitrol product, that wa fine but the moment I went to havoc, I am realizing that i could screw things up with my estrogen if I dont pct correctly and it could rebound and that could be bad!


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## GMO (Mar 7, 2011)

Nedster said:


> Test-E & Trenbolone , Test will give you the bulking you require whilst the tren wiil help eleviate your unwanted fat !!!




I almost negged you, but I am in a good mood this morning.  Nevertheless, this would be the wost thing the OP could possibly do.  He is nowhere near ready for any AAS IMO, much less Tren.



MDR said:


> I think you might think about going natural for  awhile and dropping some weight.  You didn't give us your bodyfat level,  but if it is high, you won't find what you are looking for with Ph's or  AAS.  Also, if you are not giving a full effort to diet and training,  you might think twice about using anything at all.  HRT is a good  thought if you have a deficiency, but if not, I honestly don't think  drugs are the solution.



^^^Well said MDR, as always.

Develop a consistent diet and training routine, get your BF down and then you may open the door to other options.  I would post your diet and training routine in the appropriate forums and let us help you there first.


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## djm6464 (Mar 7, 2011)

OutWhey said:


> My thoughts below would something great to consider bud
> 
> Beastdrol
> Epistrong
> ...




why?????????? i dont get this, he just ran an awful cycle and shows a complete lack of knowledge, and you suggest beastdrol????? rep eh


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## carmineb (Mar 7, 2011)

djm6464 said:


> why?????????? i dont get this, he just ran an awful cycle and shows a complete lack of knowledge, and you suggest beastdrol????? rep eh



I aint ALL That bad....  I ran a natural and reversitrol for a month, I lost about 10 pounds or so BUT I was also building muscle, I could measure it, I could see it and it was hard... my diet, supplements, sleep was good....  Since coming back, I am behind and trying to ctch up on hormonal supplementation like the prehormones/steroids, etc.....  it is the only element I thought I'd ry to add and since I am 50 and my testosterone is/was low and estrogen is was high, I didnt wantt o bust my ass in gym fighting the impossible so it makes, made alot of sense to supplement my regiment with something that is going to boost my test so I have a fighting chance to at least build half the muscle that idiot on the cell phone  in between sets can do, while I bust my ass...  if I am going to do all the right things and still lose, why bother!  so give me the test of a 25 year old , even if for just a year of hard training and I will be happy to revert back to maintenance once I get to where I want to be.  you all watch jersey shores, a ripped version of Ronnie isnt bad, he aint all that big!  that is not a bad goal to go for, for the end of the summer for me. (6 months)

When I went to havoc, it was in the middle of some family issues and there was stress at my house daily, my sleep patterns were messed up, my diet suffered, only thing that didnt was my supplementation with proteins, pre post workout stuff, etc....  I had wanted to make this havoc cycle work to it's max.  I realized after the first week on havoc, my strengths went up alot, I was pushing harder for more sets and i was fine.....  Going into the 3rd week, my mind was flooded with family issues to the point tht when I went to the gym, I didnt have any mental energy to realy push and I knew it, I would give it my best effort but i was NOT in the zone, so to speak, so realizing this, I decided to cycle the raining routine to ligthter weight and higher reps and go for volume not as much intensity but only so it wouldnt be a complete failure....  

my company has left, my home life is in order.  I have a legal issue I have to resolve family related and once that is gone, my stress levels will be back to normal....  It was a bad time to start a cycle, that was the major point i was trying to make....  And then I feel, OK, I'll end the havoc cycle early, I still have 1 week left on it and just go pct and it seems I go to the nutrition place I get my protein from, first guy gives me what he called a PCT sith some test boosters and an anti aromatizer in it, everyone tells me it is junk and you all were not the only ones, (btw, this guy had done cycles so I expected he knew better).  I call back to the store, the other guy says I should take arimidex, now I am figuring he wants me to go hardcore and he uses it for all pct as a catch all....

I just want to end this havoc cycle, be on something to get me to a nice level and in a month , my life ought to be cleared enough to take some prohormones or a beginner cycle.

by bodyfat, only place I have bodyfat is mostly my stomach, at the thickest part, I can pinch about 1 1/2 inches, my back around 3/4.  the rest of my body is 1/2 inch or less....

of course, I think each suggestion is a viable suggestion and a realistic cycle to get what I am after some r more aggressive or hardcore than others.  if I lose 20 more pounds I will see a 4 pack, that I am sure of. so I aint that far off.  

Just trying to bring it back full circle...  cuz the guy at my nutrition store recommended a DMZ product tah is stacked in with something else....  but my goal is in fact, over the next month, shread more weight while on a pct, I havent even been taking any stimulants for pre workout or thermogenics for over 3 weeks so my goal is to tune all my systems up and be sharp for when I am ready to start seriously thinking mass.  I have the body type that tends to gain fat weight a little more and I dont want to not eat to also prevent muscle growth but i do want to know I can halt most of the wrong kind of weight, if possible.


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## djm6464 (Mar 7, 2011)

phs do not raise test, they shut it down, seein gthey are an exegenous hormonal source

what you need to do like alot of posters said, is go see an endo

a script for trt will blow all these hormones being mentioned away

btw no slight on you, but the planning of your havoc cycle was bad, and the pct even worse, a bit of research would have helped you, this thread alone should set you straight.....ENDOCRINOLOGIST !!!!!!!!!!!!

good luck


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## carmineb (Mar 7, 2011)

thank u.  (now I have 50 posts and I can reply to some of your PMs)


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