# AAS Vs. PH (and the law of supply and demand)



## Damaged_1 (Aug 9, 2011)

So I have a theory...

If the legal, cheaper alternative worked even somewhat, would there be such a demand for AAS? Obviously the demand is there, and the price is high...but it works.


I am thinking the demand and existence of the market for AAS is evidence that all the over the counter stuff just doesn't work (or at least not very well). I have no experience in either, but given my age (39) I expect to head that direction once I get more experience under my belt. Trying to determine if the PH is even worth trying in the middle area, or if it's just a waste.


I realize this is more of a supplement question, but I specifically want to get the viewpoint of the older, experienced AAS folks on this, so I put it here. I would like to know from your point of view (assuming many who have  used AAS have also tried PH or have advanced knowledge of them)...are  PH's even worth fooling with at all?


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## GMO (Aug 9, 2011)

Damaged_1 said:


> So I have a theory...
> 
> If the legal, cheaper alternative worked even somewhat, would there be such a demand for AAS? Obviously the demand is there, and the price is high...but it works.
> 
> ...


 
There are a few OTC products that are just as strong as any oral AAS.

SuperDMZ & Methadrol Extreme are just two examples.


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## heavyiron (Aug 9, 2011)

Super DMZ is actually 2 steroids. Very strong stuff and legal for now.


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## Life (Aug 9, 2011)

Side effects are greater with PH's because you can't counter-balance issues like libido, hunger, ect... like you can when using various injectables together.


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## OldSchoolLifter (Aug 9, 2011)

^^ GMO is right on, Their are many Designer steroids, and PH's that work very well.

Iron Mag Labs has very good products, I have only used Methadrol Extreme from their line, but it was excellent. And it is extremely strong.

The demand is high for AAS not becasue PH's dont work, but becasue they are two different things, Using only orals can only do so much, but compounding an injectable with an oral makes things work even better.


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## Damaged_1 (Aug 9, 2011)

Life said:


> Side effects are greater with PH's because you can't counter-balance issues like libido, hunger, ect... like you can when using various injectables together.




Thanks all for the fast replies...


Have 6 kids, so I could do without the libido for a bit...lol

Interesting replies as well...I would have thought if they actually work, why would people incur greater risk and expense to use AAS?


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## OldSchoolLifter (Aug 9, 2011)

Damaged_1 said:


> Thanks all for the fast replies...
> 
> 
> Have 6 kids, so I could do without the libido for a bit...lol
> ...




Using Injectable correctly pose less of a risk then orals alone.


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## SwoleZilla (Aug 9, 2011)

oral are harsh on the liver

but ya now adays there isnt much good phs anylonger since the ban but IML has a lineup that is above and beyond

superdmz and methadrol extreme are the two of the strongest! but we also just released deca drol that is great also


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## Arnold (Aug 9, 2011)

Damaged_1 said:


> So I have a theory...
> 
> If the legal, cheaper alternative worked even somewhat, would there be such a demand for AAS? Obviously the demand is there, and the price is high...but it works.
> 
> ...



Nothing compares to injectables, however most AAS users will stack injectables with an oral, for those that don't want to go to the "dark side" companies like IronMagLabs are there to provide the legal alternatives. And yes they work and work quite well as some have already mentioned above, Super-DMZ (Superdrol/Dimethazine) and Metha-Drol Extreme (Superdrol/Dimethazine/Max LMG), and several other we have on the market.

Another thing to mention is I can guarantee you with absolute certainty (because its all 3rd party tested) that all IronMagLabs compounds are real and dosed exactly as the bottle says. Can you say that about the UGL gear available on the market? Hell no, in some cases you have no idea what your putting into your body, pretty scary.


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## Damaged_1 (Aug 9, 2011)

Interesting...I did not take into account the companion role the PH's play to AAS...

I suppose a more accurate question would be do they work as a stand-alone alternative to AAS?

And when you say orals are harsh on the liver, are we talking "don't do it too much" harsh on the liver (like heavy drinking), or are we talking "can fry your liver with one cycle and you'll need time to heal" harsh on the liver?

Planning ahead and trying to figure out what to educate myself on for if/when I am ready for the next step.


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## Arnold (Aug 9, 2011)

Damaged_1 said:


> Interesting...I did not take into account the companion role the PH's play to AAS...
> 
> I suppose a more accurate question would be do they work as a stand-alone alternative to AAS?
> 
> ...



The term "prohormone" gets misused, most compounds are not PH's at all, they are real oral steroids that are basically unclassified steroids or "designer steroids".

If you use a methylated compound like Superdrol or Dimethazine you need to educate yourself on them, if used incorrectly or carelessly they can cause problems. 

Yes, they work and work very well, we get feedback often from users saying they gained 15lbs off one cycle of Metha-Drol Extreme.


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## Damaged_1 (Aug 9, 2011)

Thanks Prince...though I do hope to hear from others (PM me if need be) on the subject as well...not to be too cynical, but I would expect you to speak highly of them (obviously).

If not, you would be the first person selling a product I have ever seen to say "yeah, don't buy my stuff, it doesn't work"...lol


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## jackedntan (Aug 9, 2011)

I tried PH/DS before I ever tried real gear and felt they were just as effective when compared to other orals of the illegal variety. IMO its just like running an oral only cycle, its gonna work, but running with an injectible will make it work better.


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## weightslayer (Aug 9, 2011)

yup....Ironmagslabs has some legit shit!!!!!


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## mikadoo (Aug 9, 2011)

Dmz works great. Take liv52 for 2 weeks before and do proper PCT and you will be happy with results. Do a search on here and you will find alot of info.


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## bobdylan (Aug 9, 2011)

Damaged_1 said:


> So I have a theory...
> 
> If the legal, cheaper alternative worked even somewhat, would there be such a demand for AAS? Obviously the demand is there, and the price is high...but it works.
> 
> ...



You do realize a PH is literally an oral steroid?

Superdrol knocks the pants of many oral steroids.


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## heavyiron (Aug 9, 2011)

Damaged_1 said:


> Thanks Prince...though I do hope to hear from others (PM me if need be) on the subject as well...not to be too cynical, but I would expect you to speak highly of them (obviously).
> 
> If not, you would be the first person selling a product I have ever seen to say "yeah, don't buy my stuff, it doesn't work"...lol


Superdrol and Dimethazine are actual steroids. Take 5 minutes of your time with google and you will see. Or you can read the threads in here that have actual abstracts on Dimethazine.


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## heavyiron (Aug 9, 2011)

Comparisons with methyltest, winny, anadrol and test prop showed better mytropic effect on the castrates with Dimethazine.

*Biological activity of dimethazine in the protein-anabolic field. *

Matscher, R.; Lupo, C.; De, P. Ruggieri. Lab. Ric. Ormonoter. Richter,  Milan, Bollettino - Societa Italiana di Biologia Sperimentale (1962), 38  988-90. CODEN: BSIBAC ISSN: 0037-8771. Journal language unavailable.  CAN 58:34623 AN 1963:34623 CAPLUS

*Abstract*

Dimethazine (I), 2,17-dimethyl-5-androstan-17-ol-3,3'-azine, was  compared to methyltestosterone, oxymethalone, androstanazole and  testosterone propionate in its protein-anabolic activity. The tests were  made on castrated rats with a single hypodermic injection of 250 , on  young male and female rats with increasing daily oral doses from 100 to  1000 for 30 days, and on adult male rats with daily oral doses of 1000  for 25 days. It was shown that I did not interfere with the growth of  young animals; that adult rats treated with I gained, on an av., 20 g.  more in wt. than the controls; and that I had a greater myotropic effect  on castrates than the other steroids, and induced a higher N retention  than methyltestosterone in adult males.


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## Livebig14 (Aug 9, 2011)

Damaged_1 said:


> Thanks Prince...though I do hope to hear from others (PM me if need be) on the subject as well...not to be too cynical, but I would expect you to speak highly of them (obviously).
> 
> If not, you would be the first person selling a product I have ever seen to say "yeah, don't buy my stuff, it doesn't work"...lol


Heavyiron ran a superdmz log and gained 8 pounds or something and hes up around 250 with a low bodyfat %.


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## Deity (Aug 9, 2011)

Some "prohormones" are *VERY *potent and several of them have been banned and classified as steroids. Superdrol is the only one of the above I have experience with, and I can tell you from my experience OP, that the shit works and it works well, but if you do not do your research things can go very wrong.


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## Damaged_1 (Aug 9, 2011)

This has been a very educational thread for me...thank you all for the data and input. It has provided direct info, as well as ideas of what to look for.

I wasn't aware Super DMZ was a designer (didn't really know what that was)...have been reading non-stop on it most of the afternoon.

Assuming the recommended stack on IML is followed for Super DMZ, what sort of risks are there to the liver?

Again, are we talking "way too much heavy drinking lately" sort of risk, or risk of a permanently trashed liver, or somewhere in between?

Twice I have seen the advice to do the research or things can go very wrong...what are the things that can go very wrong?


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## TJTJ (Aug 9, 2011)

Damaged_1 said:


> ...Assuming the recommended stack on IML is followed for Super DMZ, what sort of risks are there to the liver?
> 
> Again, are we talking "way too much heavy drinking lately" sort of risk, or risk of a permanently trashed liver, or somewhere in between?...



IMO If you *dont *take Liver support with an oral on cycle and PCT with it we're talking damage. With liver support youre GTG. Also if you drink daily on cycle then even with liver support were talking real damage. Its all about compounding the stress on the liver we want to avoid. Drink plenty of water to help flush your system of toxins. This is all my opinion due to experiences. 

I dont have experience w/injectables but from what Ive read it buy passes your liver completely. And anything you take orally has to go through your stomach and liver which causes lose of potency.


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## ct67_72 (Aug 9, 2011)

I often see the debate, and I think it comes down to a few things. 
1. people are afraid to pin, and want to stick to orals. Some of the best are (were) pro-hormones. 
2. Law. if you want to do it legally (depending on your country of course) these are the only option. 
3. Access. lets face it, you can get the pro-hormones any time you want. Most suppliment stores have them on the shelves. how can you beat being able to walk in and walk out with your product. 

That being said, I started pro-hormones for a combination of the above. I wasnt ready to pin, or use reall AAS I thought. It was redily available so I went with it. After a lot of research I got a bottle of super drol. OH MY GOD, this stuff was great. on the second week my labido was through the roof. 
In 3 weeks my bench went from 275-315. 4 weeks to 335. I gained 7 lbs the second week. Its the real deal. 
So for a bit I thought of sticking to them, then after talking to some friends it became aparent that doing the "real thing" was actually safer and more controlable. 
But dont be fooled. There are some awesome compounds out there, readily available, that work.


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## Digitalash (Aug 9, 2011)

TJTJ said:


> IMO If you *dont *take Liver support with an oral on cycle and PCT with it we're talking damage. With liver support youre GTG. Also if you drink daily on cycle then even with liver support were talking real damage. Its all about compounding the stress on the liver we want to avoid. Drink plenty of water to help flush your system of toxins. This is all my opinion due to experiences.
> 
> I dont have experience w/injectables but from what Ive read it buy passes your liver completely. And anything you take orally has to go through your stomach and liver which causes lose of potency.


 

I disagree, depending on the oral liver support may not be necessary, and the liver will almost always heal without any serious consequences if the cycle is kept short enough. And forget drinking alcohol daily while using an oral, I wouldn't drink even once. Four weeks without a drink shouldn't be a problem, especially since alcohol is far from conducive to a bodybuilding lifestyle anyway. 

To Op, yes there are otc compounds that rival or even surpass many of the illegal orals. I gained 14 pounds on a cycle of pheraplex by itself, though that's not as easy to come by anymore. I (and I'm sure just about everyone else here) would strongly reccomend stacking it with testosterone though. You will still need a thorough pct with any otc steroid, treat it the same as you would "real" AAS. Do your research and don't take it lightly.


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## Nightowl (Aug 9, 2011)

brad1224 said:


> oral are harsh on the liver
> 
> but ya now adays there isnt much good phs anylonger since the ban but IML has a lineup that is above and beyond
> 
> superdmz and methadrol extreme are the two of the strongest! but we also just released deca drol that is great also


 

I was told that all do pass through the liver, but with orals, that some are passing twice.

Might someone here with more experience be able to address this, or you Brad? Why is that?


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## TJTJ (Aug 10, 2011)

Digitalash said:


> ...Do your research and don't take it lightly.



This ^^^


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## Damaged_1 (Aug 10, 2011)

TJTJ said:


> This ^^^



That's exactly what I am doing...starting with this thread. Getting the real world nitty gritty on first hand experiences is my first step in sorting out what to study and research. 

If someone sent me some stuff free right now, it would stay in the bottle till I knew what it was, what it does, and what the risks are.


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## Life (Aug 10, 2011)

Digitalash said:


> I disagree, depending on the oral liver support may not be necessary, and the liver will almost always heal without any serious consequences if the cycle is kept short enough. And forget drinking alcohol daily while using an oral, I wouldn't drink even once. Four weeks without a drink shouldn't be a problem, especially since alcohol is far from conducive to a bodybuilding lifestyle anyway.
> 
> To Op, yes there are otc compounds that rival or even surpass many of the illegal orals. I gained 14 pounds on a cycle of pheraplex by itself, though that's not as easy to come by anymore. I (and I'm sure just about everyone else here) would strongly reccomend stacking it with testosterone though. You will still need a thorough pct with any otc steroid, treat it the same as you would "real" AAS. Do your research and don't take it lightly.



Agreed. Besides, there has been no study that has conclusively showed milk thistle helped protect the liver. Results have varied depending on the study.


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## pieguy (Aug 10, 2011)

How does superdmz and methadrol stack up against the popular orals? Potency and safety as benchmarks? 

Do iml designers give you that euphoric feeling dbol is known for? 

A superdmg or methadrol kick start instead of dbol/tbol/adrol seems pretty interesting.

All the research I've done on Dbol, which is the benchmark oral for AAS users shows that liver damage is highly overstated and over-emphasized. That's not to say you should go dosing huge amounts of dbol for 10 weeks at a time, but I don't think 40-50mg for 4-6 weeks is anything to get bent over. Especially if you run cycle support or liver protection supps.


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## Arnold (Aug 10, 2011)

Damaged_1 said:


> Thanks Prince...though I do hope to hear from others (PM me if need be) on the subject as well...not to be too cynical, but I would expect you to speak highly of them (obviously).
> 
> If not, you would be the first person selling a product I have ever seen to say "yeah, don't buy my stuff, it doesn't work"...lol



true, but I don't have to, based on user feedback they sell themselves.


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## Arnold (Aug 10, 2011)

pieguy said:


> How does superdmz and methadrol stack up against the popular orals? Potency and safety as benchmarks?
> 
> Do iml designers give you that euphoric feeling dbol is known for?
> 
> ...



Well, you would have to look at the compounds we use in them and then make comparisons, e.g. Superdrol and Dimethazine are very powerful and most will say stronger than Dbol, Anadrol, etc.


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## heavyiron (Aug 10, 2011)

Mg for mg DMZ and Methadrol are both stronger than Anadrol or D-bol.


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## pieguy (Aug 10, 2011)

I read the sticky on methadrol so I got the part with stronger at equivalent doses, but how do the two compare at the recommend dosages? Usually you dose dbol at around 50mg and a-50 at 100mg so at the two capsule dosage of methadrol, you're getting an equivalent 20mg superdrol, 30mg dimethazine and 30mg decadrol. 

Is it safe to say that lbm gains with methadrol at recommended doses, methadrol wins out over both dbol and anadrol in the same time frame? 

I'm just a bit dumbfounded over the fact that methadrol is apparently stronger than most orals, doesn't aromatize and has less sides overall than anadrol, yet isn't vastly overshadowing dbol/anadrol as an oral kick start.


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## heavyiron (Aug 10, 2011)

I would say Anadrol has less sides actually. 

Earlier in the thread I posted an abstract on D-zine.


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## pieguy (Aug 10, 2011)

Less sides than Anadrol? You felt worse on methadrol than on anadrol despite your sticky of:  (which include a headache, bloating, elevated blood pressure, and a general "unwell" feeling for me)? Kinda scared now haha


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## heavyiron (Aug 10, 2011)

I'm referring to the data not on how I "feel". D-zine causes liver stress faster than Anadrol mg for mg however that is without liver support so it has less application for those who use liver support.


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## pieguy (Aug 10, 2011)

Hrmm lots of good information. Makes me wanna rethink my future cycles. Thanks heavy.


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