# anti estrogen



## rxlizard (Sep 9, 2003)

do i need to take a anti-estrogen in the past 12 weeks frome impact nutrition i've had 6 bottles of demagain,6 of equ-bolan 6  of maxteron, 3 of genedge, and 1 bottle of test 250. i've just finished this and not sure if i need to take anything


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## Mudge (Sep 9, 2003)

These are legal supplements and yes you need a post cycle.


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## rxlizard (Sep 9, 2003)

i've ordered the monster stack from 1fast400 that includes 6-oxo would that be good to use-should arrive of friday or saturday. Then i'll just have to order another bottle of 6-oxo for the monster stack. Should everything be ok if a whole week would pass before i start taking the anti-estrogen


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## Testosterone (Sep 12, 2003)

*Most Effective Anti-Estrogen Produtcs*

Try Biotest's M and Ergopharm's 6-OXO and stack it for best results. It's pretty cost effective too!


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## tk... (Sep 12, 2003)

what do u guys think of Aromadex?

a'm thinking of using it to raise test levels, it is usefull stacked alone? wat results should i expect along with side effects...


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## Mudge (Sep 12, 2003)

If it is anything like the real Arimidex then it is not sufficient for post cycle, Arimidex the real compound is anti aromatase which simply means it blocks estrogen production but does nothing to stimulate test levels to return.

12 weeks is an awfull long time for pro hormones, how did you do?


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## bigswole30 (Sep 12, 2003)

Aromadex has the 6oxo compound which was shown to increase free test levels over 200%. Also, the liposomal delivery system takes the product to a new level of even more effectiveness. From what I hear many employess of VPX who do not use ph's make decent gains from taking Aromadex. If you are one of the people who choose to slam VPX you could go w/ ergo 6oxo.


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## rxlizard (Sep 13, 2003)

i stopped on mon sept 8 of the 12 weeks of prohormone and on wed i started 6-oxo. from tues til sat when i first hopped in the shower my nipples seemed to get a little hard but now its not happening. the only side effect while on the cycle was some zits. I think I will start my next cycle the beginning of oct-which is the monster stack- 1test,4ad, and 6-oxo from 1fast400


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## Mudge (Sep 13, 2003)

Unless you felt some pain or tingling sensation in the nipples its all in your head.


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## tk... (Sep 14, 2003)

has anybody stacked anti estrogen alone on this board yet? a'm very interested in having some real life feedback on the product when used alone

on a biochem level, besides an increase in test, how does the male body respond to a decrease in estrogen levels?


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## Mudge (Sep 14, 2003)

Decreasing estrogen does not increase testosterone production, it will effect the ratio but it does not stimulate a rise in testosterone just as decreasing tesosterone does nothing to raise estrogen levels.

Increasing tesosterone levels will raise estrogen levels to keep _balance_ this is part of homeostasis that the body tries to hold.

You say you want feedback on "the product," what product? This Aromadex you mention?


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## tk... (Sep 15, 2003)

Yes i was talking about Aromadex.

In the human body for every action there is a reaction. I find it hard to believe that by blocking estrogen receptor sites that testosterone would not be influenced. The way i see it, the body has 2 choices: 1) it increases the amount of test produced to compensate for the lack of estrogen in hope to regain the ratio by aromatisation  or 2) it decreases the amount of test so that the ratio remains the same .

i am no biochemists, but these solutions seem very logical. One thing is for certain, there is always a counterbalance act  between the 2 hormones. This is why i find it hard to beleive that by blocking one hormone, it wouldnt stimulate the other (negative or positive way)


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## ZECH (Sep 15, 2003)

You need at least 12-16 weeks off right now to give your receptors time to recover. If not you are wasting money and are at a higher risk for side effects.


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## Mudge (Sep 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tk... *_
> I find it hard to believe that by blocking estrogen receptor sites that testosterone would not be influenced.



It doesn't matter how you "see it" when we know scientifically how the body works in that regard. Toying with estrogen has nothing to do with testosterone production. You want to stimulate testosterone production look into LH and FSH, not aromatase inhibitors.



> 1) it increases the amount of test produced to compensate for the lack of estrogen in hope to regain the ratio by aromatisation



Pardon me but what are you smoking? If there is a lack of estrogen then the body would compensate by lowering the testosterone level to even things out again. If I raise the active testosterone level estrogen goes up, if I lower one eventually the body must lower the other to restore natural balance between the two.

Further, flat out blocking estrogen is not healthy, and arimidex itself (the real thing) is not good for your cholesterol levels, bone density and so on. So it must be used wisely.

By blocking estrogen you change the effective RATIO but you do NOT stimulate testosterone production directly. Testosterone is produced in the testes, if they are shrunk then thier ability to produce testosterone will be poor, this is where HCG is used to get them back up to size so that they can produce testosterone again on some meaningfull level. Blocking aromatase action again does nothing to stimulate testosterone production when it only affects estrogen levels.

Since there are other substances in the product you are talking about, then perhaps those could help do the job.

1) Restore estrogen to normal levels
2) Stimulate LH and FSH to restore test levels

Blocking estrogen by itself does nothing to help recovery other than get rid of or block estrogen.


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## odin52 (Sep 15, 2003)

mudge...I am confused, the stuff I read about 6oxo said it is just an aromatase inhibitor but the ads say it increases test by 200%.
I think it shares the ingredient 3,6,17-androstenetrione with aromadex. From your other posts I can see you know your stuff so I just want to understand this a little better.


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## Mudge (Sep 15, 2003)

If you can keep it test, and not allow estrogen conversion (aromatase action) yes, but it would still not be a recovery drug IMO.

With that said I know very little about how well, or how the legal supplement recovery items work. I thought it was posted above that "Aromadex" had multiple items within.


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## ZECH (Sep 15, 2003)

After a PH cycle, your test/estrogen levels are out of whack. Most Ph's will convert to some estrogen. Estrogen then is higher than test. And taken long enogh, natural test levels will slow way down. This is why you want to control estrogen. It allows test to get back in the same ratios as quick as possible.


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## tk... (Sep 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> 
> Pardon me but what are you smoking? If there is a lack of estrogen then the body would compensate by lowering the testosterone level to even things out again. If I raise the active testosterone level estrogen goes up, if I lower one eventually the body must lower the other to restore natural balance between the two.



like i said in my last post, the solutions were either 1) or 2)..if u read my post you will see that i said the same thing you did. I jsut wanst sure which one it was, so i looked at it from 2 logical pointst of view. But yes,practical science does speak for itself and that was the answer i was looking for.


It's funny though how a'm not the only one to think that 1) is so unlikely: 

"6-OXO??? is what is known as a suicide inhibitor of aromatase. This means that 6-OXO??? binds to the aromatase enzyme in a permanent and irreversible manner, rendering it inactive. The result of this is an eventual diminishment of aromatase enzyme in the body and a concomitant reduction in estrogen levels.3 4 5 6 7 A corresponding increase in testosterone production is usually experienced as well."

"The hypothalamus is so sensitive to estrogens in fact that administration of an estrogen blocker can often result in a very substantial surge in testosterone production."

it looks like my two solutions are being debated, since we broke it down to two solutions, now which one is it 1) or 2)  

these are the ingredients for aromadex:
Calories 
 4
 0%

Total Carbohydrates 
 1g 
 0%

Sugars 
 0g 
 0%

Total Fat 
 0g 
 0%

Saturated Fat 
 0g 
 0%

3; 6; 17-Androstenetrione ( 6 oxo)
 100mg

4-Androsten-4-ol-3beta, 17 beta-dione,,(what is this though ??)
 50mg


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## tk... (Sep 15, 2003)

derived from 
http://www.spinellinutrition.com/ergopharm-6-OXO.html


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## Mudge (Sep 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tk... *_
> like i said in my last post, the solutions were either 1) or 2)..if u read my post you will see that i said the same thing you did.



My point is simply that blocking estrogen has zero to do with increasing testosterone output. Arimidex the real compound is not healthy for long term use due to lowering of the HDL cholesterol levels, and raising LDL. I dont know how close Aromadex is to the real thing.

So while it will block aromatase action it will not stimulate normal testosterone output, so regardless of what your levels are this alone will not a recouperation make. Even nolvadex and/or clomid for short term use can help bring up test levels, but after cessation test levels can drop once again meaning the subject did not recouperate fully.



> "The hypothalamus is so sensitive to estrogens in fact that administration of an estrogen blocker can often result in a very substantial surge in testosterone production."



I'll be glad to read up on that one, recovery is the subject I read about most, as of yet I have not heard this claim. When it is a legal and commercial product, or even a scientific study I am wary of any claims made, so I often look for real world "evidence" or multiple studies finding the same things.

i.e. Cybergenics "studies" showing how great the products were, but oh gosh Franco Santoriello was using steroids and I'm 'sure' they didn't know that.


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## Mudge (Sep 16, 2003)

Another vote for no arimidex post cycle.



			
				DrJMW said:
			
		

> *Stop the arimidex the last week of AAS use. *


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