# Bulky Muscle vs. Lean Muscle ?



## msoper (Jun 20, 2002)

I am not really a body builder but I would like to be.  When I was in High school (just 2 years ago) I played football and we worked out.  I have a farely large frame and it seemed like any muscle I built just bulked me up and  I still had fat over the muscle.

I was wondering what kind of weight traing would be needed to get like, oh lets say....Brad Pitt in Fight Club.  Very muscluar but to too bulky.  And no fat over the muscle.

I know it has a little to do with genes but I am sure there is a way to be muscular without being too bulky.  I have heard that doing less wight with more reps does this and that less reps with heavy weight bulks.  Is this true?

(By the way.....im not obese or anything.  Im just about 6 feet and 168lbs.)

Thanks!


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## msoper (Jun 20, 2002)

I meant NOT too bulky =)


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## Scotty the Body (Jun 20, 2002)

Your body fat is to high, you need to address your diet and a little cardio might help. 

There's no such thing as bulky muscles. 

*I have heard that doing less wight with more reps does this and that less reps with heavy weight bulks. Is this true?*

More weight and lower reps does help for building up muscle but I wouldn't use the light weight high rep scheme. 

With your hight and current weight, I'd worry more about putting on some more weight than cutting right now, I guess your going to have to decide what your goals are, get lean ore put on some Lean muscle cause its pretty hard to do both.


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## msoper (Jun 20, 2002)

Well I have alot of friends that wanted to be "Huge" and all they did was just bulk up muslce under fat and the muscles were not cut either.  They just looked like huge hulking masses.  I don't care about being huge, just defined.  But i know you must build muscle to make muslce to define it.


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## Mudge (Jun 20, 2002)

If they ate like pigs and ended up just eating carbs and fats, with only modest amounts of protein, then that is why they would be getting 'fat'. If your 168 pounds you sound pretty lean or thin already, I'm 6'2" and 217, and I'm not very large framed or big, my lean body mass is a little over your entire bodyweight.

Good eating, and not eating in 2 large meals, spread it out to 4-6 smaller meals through the day (not 3 hours before bedtime) and it will be easier for your body to make use of the nutrients and NOT have them go to fat. You may also want to add in 3 times a week, 30 minute bike and/or cardio.


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## Vale Tudo (Jun 20, 2002)

Getting cut/defined is all about your body fat.  Do as the man says...Watch your diet and hit some cardio


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## Mudge (Jun 20, 2002)

Get your bodyfat taken sometime, that way you know exactly where your starting from. You may be supprised.

From what I remember in high school, make sure to decide now, are you powerlifting or bodybuilding?


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## msoper (Jun 20, 2002)

Cant I build my body while I gain power? Or is to two completely differnt ways of training?


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## Mudge (Jun 20, 2002)

Yes of course, but 1-3 reps every day, all day, isn't going to make you hard like a rock.

Alot of high schoolers thought they were doing some kind of workout, when in reality they were wasting more time than they were making use of, and yes the two sports are very different. I think the record for someone 168 pounds in the bench is close to 600 pounds, and obviously this person does not look like a bodybuilder. Some of them are skinny, some of them look like jabba the hut, and only rarely do any of them look like an offseason bodybuilder.

Make sure your repetitions are deliberate, its not an ego fest in there. I'm not saying you ARE doing this, but if your workouts are not giving you the results your after, then it could be diet or workout, so I'm just suggesting you double check and make sure your not shortcutting yourself.


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## Scotty the Body (Jun 20, 2002)

The training is the same, it has more to do with your diet and maybe cardio.  You shouldn't use lifting to lower body fat (reps sets etc)


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## Mudge (Jun 20, 2002)

The training is not the same, similar sure but no its not the same.

Keep your rest periods to 60-90 seconds, dont stay in the gym longer than 45-60 minutes.

If you stick with it and are not cutting yourself short diet/training wise, the gains WILL come, and they will show, this definately takes time and consistency.


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## Sub-Zero (Jun 20, 2002)

I sense that your definition of 'muscular' would mean you could see the muscles very well. This is due to a low BF%.

Most people would lose 10-20lbs to get that cut from their bulking period dependant on how much BF they added and how low they wish to be.

Being cut is more a factor of diet manulpilation as opposed to any real differences in training. Look at it this way -

You lifted heavy to build up those muscles, so why would you change when cutting ?

Power can be achieved whilst cutting, but the gains would come slower due to the fact ur calorie intake probably would be lower.

At your height however, I would concentrate on adding 10lbs muscle and minimal fat and water. This would give a good base to cut on. There's no point cutting if there's nothing TO CUT !!


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## msoper (Jun 20, 2002)

Thanks for the advice guys!!!  Helps a great deal.


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## Mudge (Jun 20, 2002)

To really show your abs/muscles your probably looking at 8% BF and below, at least from my experience.


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## Sub-Zero (Jun 20, 2002)

Single digits is what you need to aim for. Some people even have abs at 12% + BF (These are the genetically gifted ones wid killer abs)


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## Scotty the Body (Jun 20, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> The training is not the same, similar sure but no its not the same.



What I'm trying to get at is he shouldn't use weight training (reps and number of sets) as a way to drop body fat.


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## Mudge (Jun 20, 2002)

Gotcha.

You can keep the heart rate elevated by using very short rest periods (30 seconds or so), but I agree, either cardio or bodybuilding, keep them seperated. Cardio can be done in the morning on an empty stomach (I dont do true cardio, just 65% max heartrate for 30-45 minutes on a stationary bike), and your weights whenever you can fit it into your schedule.

Remember the rest periods though, not this 4 minute stuff (thats for powerlifting), you'd end up in there all day long. Don't forget to have at least 1 rest day in there somewhere, I do the body over 4 days time and have a fifth day off.


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## epimetheus (Jun 22, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Remember the rest periods though, not this 4 minute stuff (thats for powerlifting



As somebody who primarily powerlifts, I must nitpick here...
I have never rested for 4 mins.  My rest period is more like 15-20 seconds, or just long enough for me to add some more weights.  I usually deliberately either have very little rest, or do supersets to keep me active the whole 30-45 mins I am in the gym.  This elevates my heart rate, and keeps me from having to do Cardio (which effects my strength)


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## LAM (Jun 22, 2002)

being an ex-PL'er myself how can 15-20 secs be enough time inbetween sets when training at 85% of your 1RM ? when bb'ers typical go a minute.  

When training heavy I easily go 4-5 minutes inbetween sets.  how long have you been PL'ing ?


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## Mudge (Jun 22, 2002)

I'm not on LAM's level, but cardio and powerlifting don't mix, and when your murdering yourself doing 1-3 reps, I have been using 4 minute rest periods between as thats what I've seen used for ultra heavy workouts, poundages would drop pretty fast.


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## epimetheus (Jun 22, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by LAM *_
> being an ex-PL'er myself how can 15-20 secs be enough time inbetween sets when training at 85% of your 1RM ? when bb'ers typical go a minute.
> 
> When training heavy I easily go 4-5 minutes inbetween sets.  how long have you been PL'ing ?



I just started Pling solo.  I worked briefly (one month) with a group doing Westside methods.  There were 4 of us.  We rotated doing 3-5 reps, and did them quickly so that rest time was minimal.  On our auxillary work we also used 15-20 seconds in between sets.  We made PR's every week.  I gained 50lbs on my bench and 85lbs on my deadlift and in the time I was there I went from squatting 95lbs to 135lbs. (my squat sucks, had never done it before that time)  In ONE month.
I went solo because the drive there was over 40 mins, and my schedule could not handle the time It took.  My gym is less than a mile down the road.

They are the ones that trained me so that is why I do it the way I do.  It works for me currently so I use it.  
I don't know how other powerlifters lift, but in my experience, (who I trained with, the msg boards I have frequented) I don't know anybody that has 4 min rest periods.  I guess I am wrong, there are some out there, but I think its the exception not the rule.


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## epimetheus (Jun 22, 2002)

I started lifting in Early March.  Have never lifted in my life before then.  Was doing BB untill a month and two weeks ago.


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## Mudge (Jun 22, 2002)

Almost no matter what you do early on, and you will make pretty impressive gains.


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## epimetheus (Jun 22, 2002)

Aye, but two of the lifters were pretty experienced, and the guy that owned the gym had been lifting for years.  His max bench was like 375 when I left, was 350 when I got there.  So in the month I was there he gained 25lbs.  Not bad at that level.  The woman in our group had a max bench of 309 when I left, and was like 250 when I got there.  She had been doing WS methods for 10 months.  Her weights were amazing for a woman.  On top of that she had an old damage rotator cuff from her BB days before she started PL.  The other guy was only Pling a couple months before I joined.

Indeed, if you watch the Westide Squat, Bench, or seminar films that Louie Simmons puts out, you will notice that in thier routine (and these are guys that max 600, 800 on bench and squat respectivly) they have 30 seconds max rest time.  The time it takes for the guys in front of them (and they seem to train in 3's or 4's) to finish, and they are on top of it.  I am not saying it is the only way or the best way, just that if low rest time works for them, as well as for me (a beginner) then it must be good, and not make me weaker or damage me.


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## Mudge (Jun 22, 2002)

In 3s or 4s? What do you mean?

Traditional powerlifting has working sets of 1-3 reps, and approximately 4 minute rest periods. What you described is more like bulking, with insufficient rest periods between sets.

From the time you get off the bench, to the time you start working again, that is rest.


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## epimetheus (Jun 22, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> In 3s or 4s? What do you mean?



I mean they work in groups of 3 or 4 people.
Three people rotate the lifts.  Person 1 lays down, rips out three quick reps, hops up, Person 2 lays down, rips out three quick reps and hops up, Person 3 lays down, does 3 quick, and Person 1 starts again. Total time, around 30 seconds.  
On max effort day, it is the same, but only 1 rep is used on working sets.
I don't know anything about Traditional Powerlifting.  For all I know, they could have 10 min rest periods.  I don't know any powerlifters that do it that way though, so I thought you were wrong.

I don't understand what you mean about bulking..  Bodybuilders bulk, and they operate under TUT and long rest periods to allow better hypertrophy.  I don't see how lifting with short rest periods is the same.


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## Mudge (Jun 22, 2002)

If they are training in 3-4 person groups, they are getting alot more than 15-20 seconds between sets.

Bulking, lifting heavy but not powerlifting. Working sets go down to your 1RM, which you apperantly are not doing in your working sets. So, my considering is whoever your training with is not a powerlifter.

If they are adding 25 pounds to thier bench in a month, they should be well out of the 300 and 400 bench mark, unless they are relative newbies like yourself.

Long rest periods are pretty generally not bodybuilder friendly, 60-90 seconds is the norm. This is enough time for me to have 1 training partner, and we switch off almost immediately between our sets.


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## Scotty the Body (Jun 22, 2002)

I don't think 3 people can set up on a bench, do 3 reps in 30 seconds. I'd say it takes at least 15-20 seconds to get on the bench and set up (hand position) and then another 10-15 seconds at least to do the reps for a total of more like 1 minut per person.


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## Scotty the Body (Jun 22, 2002)

don't forget Pl'ers are putting up some weight, to be rushing would be just asking for an injury.


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## epimetheus (Jun 22, 2002)

True, but a single person takes no longer than about 8-12 seconds to do his set.  We are talking about explosive power here.

Whoever I was training with are indeed powerlifters.  You can do a simple read on elitefts.com and find out all about Westside barbell, a very well known POWERLIFTING gym in Columbus Ohio.  
I think they are relativly new to Westside barbell, and have only been using their methods for the last few months.  Just because they made a 25 lb jump in one month does not mean they make it every month, sometimes you jump 5lbs in one week, and then the next week you make a 15 lb jump.  It is odd.

Who I am training with now is just myself, as I mentioned I recently started lifting solo.

From http://www.wannabebig.com/printarticle.php?articleid=46


> Rest periods should be between 40-60 seconds.



20 seconds is what I am using now since I am solo.  If I get weaker from it fine, I will switch when I notice.  4 mins?  never.


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## LAM (Jun 22, 2002)

Westside does put out some serious PL'ers however the majority of them are heavy AS users, it's funny how that is always left out in extreme training routines...


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## Mudge (Jun 22, 2002)

You should give your body, not just your muscles - more rest than 20 seconds. I have only known 1 person to have a serious injury, being a torn pectoral muscle. Either way, I hope you look into rest periods more seriously.

Leave 15-20 second rest periods for the aerobic people.

Good luck


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## epimetheus (Jun 22, 2002)

Ahh, the old AS acusation argument.

It always seems that when I see somebody post a routine, inevitably somebody comes along and says "Yeah, its a great routine, but (insert name) uses AS" , which I am guessing is supposed to invalidate the entire routine.
Its like the whole Nazi accusation in debates, it is always brought up and it is still a logical fallacy.

I go based on how my muscles feel.  Yesterday I did Deadlifts, only 225, when my Max is 309.  Did 8 working sets of 1.  Speed lifts I must add, and only rested about 20 seconds.  I don't wear a watch, nor do I time the seconds.  I go on how I feel, 20 seconds seems about right, though It might be 30 or even 40 seconds that I am resting.  I don't want to hurt myself either, and I do thank you for your concern.  It feels pretty good knowing that there are people out there looking out for others, even if it does invoke a childish bit of anger in me.  I appologize.


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## Scotty the Body (Jun 22, 2002)

*It always seems that when I see somebody post a routine, inevitably somebody comes along and says "Yeah, its a great routine, but (insert name) uses AS" , which I am guessing is supposed to invalidate the entire routine. 
Its like the whole Nazi accusation in debates, it is always brought up and it is still a logical fallacy.*

You'd be suprised how many people use AS, the routines arn't total crap but arn't practical for most natural BB'rs.


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## LAM (Jun 22, 2002)

epimetheus...how long have you been weight training ?


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## Snake_Eyes (Jun 22, 2002)

The short rests used by Westside are only done on their dynamic effort (or speed) days. These days are used to develop power and only use from 50-65% of their 1RM in a lift.

On the maximal effort day, Westside works up to a heavy 1-3 rep set, using normal rest periods.


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## Mudge (Jun 22, 2002)

Tada, that explains it.


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## 1xDeatHsHeaDx3 (Jun 24, 2002)

Fight Club is a great movie


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