# Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story



## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

*Stephen Hawking: 'There is no heaven; it's a fairy story'*

In an exclusive interview with the Guardian, the cosmologist shares his thoughts on death, M-theory, human purpose and our chance existence

Stephen Hawking dismisses belief in God in an exclusive interview with the Guardian.

A belief that heaven or an afterlife awaits us is a "fairy story" for people afraid of death, Stephen Hawking has said.

In a dismissal that underlines his firm rejection of religious comforts, Britain's most eminent scientist said there was nothing beyond the moment when the brain flickers for the final time.

Hawking, who was diagnosed with motor neurone disease at the age of 21, shares his thoughts on death, human purpose and our chance existence in an exclusive interview with the Guardian today.

The incurable illness was expected to kill Hawking within a few years of its symptoms arising, an outlook that turned the young scientist to Wagner, but ultimately led him to enjoy life more, he has said, despite the cloud hanging over his future.

"I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I'm not afraid of death, but I'm in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first," he said.

"I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," he added.

Hawking's latest comments go beyond those laid out in his 2010 book, The Grand Design, in which he asserted that there is no need for a creator to explain the existence of the universe. The book provoked a backlash from some religious leaders, including the chief rabbi, Lord Sacks, who accused Hawking of committing an "elementary fallacy" of logic.

The 69-year-old physicist fell seriously ill after a lecture tour in the US in 2009 and was taken to Addenbrookes hospital in an episode that sparked grave concerns for his health. He has since returned to his Cambridge department as director of research.

The physicist's remarks draw a stark line between the use of God as a metaphor and the belief in an omniscient creator whose hands guide the workings of the cosmos.

In his bestselling 1988 book, A Brief History of Time, Hawking drew on the device so beloved of Einstein, when he described what it would mean for scientists to develop a "theory of everything" ??? a set of equations that described every particle and force in the entire universe. "It would be the ultimate triumph of human reason ??? for then we should know the mind of God," he wrote.

The book sold a reported 9 million copies and propelled the physicist to instant stardom. His fame has led to guest roles in The Simpsons, Star Trek: The Next Generation and Red Dwarf. One of his greatest achievements in physics is a theory that describes how black holes emit radiation.

In the interview, Hawking rejected the notion of life beyond death and emphasised the need to fulfil our potential on Earth by making good use of our lives. In answer to a question on how we should live, he said, simply: "We should seek the greatest value of our action."

In answering another, he wrote of the beauty of science, such as the exquisite double helix of DNA in biology, or the fundamental equations of physics.

Hawking responded to questions posed by the Guardian and a reader in advance of a lecture tomorrow at the Google Zeitgeist meeting in London, in which he will address the question: "Why are we here?"

In the talk, he will argue that tiny quantum fluctuations in the very early universe became the seeds from which galaxies, stars, and ultimately human life emerged. "Science predicts that many different kinds of universe will be spontaneously created out of nothing. It is a matter of chance which we are in," he said.

Hawking suggests that with modern space-based instruments, such as the European Space Agency's Planck mission, it may be possible to spot ancient fingerprints in the light left over from the earliest moments of the universe and work out how our own place in space came to be.

His talk will focus on M-theory, a broad mathematical framework that encompasses string theory, which is regarded by many physicists as the best hope yet of developing a theory of everything.

M-theory demands a universe with 11 dimensions, including a dimension of time and the three familiar spatial dimensions. The rest are curled up too small for us to see.

Evidence in support of M-theory might also come from the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at Cern, the European particle physics laboratory near Geneva.

One possibility predicted by M-theory is supersymmetry, an idea that says fundamental particles have heavy ??? and as yet undiscovered ??? twins, with curious names such as selectrons and squarks.

Confirmation of supersymmetry would be a shot in the arm for M-theory and help physicists explain how each force at work in the universe arose from one super-force at the dawn of time.

Another potential discovery at the LHC, that of the elusive Higgs boson, which is thought to give mass to elementary particles, might be less welcome to Hawking, who has a long-standing bet that the long-sought entity will never be found at the laboratory.

Hawking will join other speakers at the London event, including the chancellor, George Osborne, and the Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz.

Science, truth and beauty: Hawking's answers

What is the value in knowing "Why are we here?"

The universe is governed by science. But science tells us that we can't solve the equations, directly in the abstract. We need to use the effective theory of Darwinian natural selection of those societies most likely to survive. We assign them higher value.

You've said there is no reason to invoke God to light the blue touchpaper. Is our existence all down to luck?

Science predicts that many different kinds of universe will be spontaneously created out of nothing. It is a matter of chance which we are in.

So here we are. What should we do?

We should seek the greatest value of our action.

You had a health scare and spent time in hospital in 2009. What, if anything, do you fear about death?

I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I'm not afraid of death, but I'm in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first. I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.

What are the things you find most beautiful in science?

Science is beautiful when it makes simple explanations of phenomena or connections between different observations. Examples include the double helix in biology, and the fundamental equations of physics."


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## CV3 (May 19, 2011)

I believe in Stephen.


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## murf23 (May 19, 2011)

everybody is entitled to an opinion...can he prove there is no after life or that God doesnt exist ? no ...so its just an opinion the man is a genius tho so i do have alot of respect for his work


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## I Are Baboon (May 19, 2011)

He was pretty good in that Family Guy episode.


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## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> everybody is entitled to an opinion...can he prove there is no after life or that God doesnt exist ? no ...so its just an opinion the man is a genius tho so i do have alot of respect for his work



that is like me saying Unicorns exist, and you cannot prove they don't.


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## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

Prince said:


> that is like me saying Unicorns exist, and you cannot prove they don't.



So you can say with 100% confidence that there is no creature remotely like the unicorn in the entire universe? With all the myriad opportunities for life in the universe,  all the possible permutations of life, there is nothing like the unicorn?


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## murf23 (May 19, 2011)

are u kidding Prince ? do ya really wanna get into a religius debate on here about wether there is a God or not...i most def dont ...and i do believe in unicorns prove me wrong go ahead


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## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> So you can say with 100% confidence that there is no creature remotely like the unicorn in the entire universe? With all the myriad opportunities for life in the universe,  all the possible permutations of life, there is nothing like the unicorn?



no, but I think I can say with 100% confidence there are no unicorns on the face of this earth.


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## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> are u kidding Prince ? do ya really wanna get into a religius debate on here about wether there is a God or not...i most def dont ...and i do believe in unicorns prove me wrong go ahead



all I did is post an article from a very well known genius, believe what you want.

I don't have to prove unicorns don't exist, if you say they do the onus is on you to prove they do exist.


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## Leave (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> everybody is entitled to an opinion...can he prove there is no after life or that God doesnt exist ? no ...so its just an opinion the man is a genius tho so i do have alot of respect for his work


 
No one can prove he does exist as well.


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## murf23 (May 19, 2011)

ok ok please lol this is makin me crazy ....obviously the unicorn is a joke but cmon u cant debate religion ...i mean please ....its an endless debate ....u cant tell me that i am wrong and there is no GOD and i cant make u believe there is ...i did enjoy ur thread hawkings is a genius


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## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

Prince said:


> no, but I think I can say with 100% confidence there are no unicorns on the face of this earth.



God is not from here. He's from out there somewhere. So to say there is no god is to say that such a being cannot exist anywhere in the universe.


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## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> God is not from here. He's from out there somewhere. So to say there is no god is to say that such a being cannot exist anywhere in the universe.



take your argument up with Stephen Hawking.


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## Leave (May 19, 2011)

No being has been proven the be perfect, therefore a "god" doesn't exist. 
Its only a fabricated belief that makes certain people feel hopeful in life.


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## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> ok ok please lol this is makin me crazy ....obviously the unicorn is a joke but cmon u cant debate religion ...i mean please ....its an endless debate ....u cant tell me that i am wrong and there is no GOD and i cant make u believe there is ...i did enjoy ur thread hawkings is a genius



I am not arguing religion, we have done that countless times here.
If you want my opinion I think religion was created to control the masses, period, and it works even to this day. However, religeon and spirituality are completely different, I am not arguing whether a god exists or not, Stephen Hawking is. I just thought it was an interesting article.


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## MDR (May 19, 2011)

Hey, it's just a theory...

Also an opinion, and he is entitled to his as much as anyone who is a true believer in the fairy tale.  I don't believe in God or the idea of Heaven and Hell.  Why does anyone who doesn't agree with the fable seen to piss off those who do?


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## Leave (May 19, 2011)

Religious people are crazy like that, and its pitiful, and that's a fact.


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## murf23 (May 19, 2011)

oh man i see this one is really gonna take a life of its own like that WP not legit thread ...i hope not but just in case  where is that lil smilely face wit the couch and the popcorn


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## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

MDR said:


> Hey, it's just a theory...
> 
> Also an opinion, and he is entitled to his as much as anyone who is a true believer in the fairy tale.  I don't believe in God or the idea of Heaven and Hell.  Why does anyone who doesn't agree with the fable seen to piss off those who do?



because religious people think that everyone should believe in what they do, if you don't then you're wrong in their eyes, according to them if its in the bible its true. my family is all devote christians and they think I am going to "hell" because I have not accepted Jesus as my savior.


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## MDR (May 19, 2011)

Leave said:


> Religious people are crazy like that, and its pitiful, and that's a fact.



There does seen to be a correlation between the fundamentalist folks and manic behavior.  Maybe Stephen can come up with a scientific experiment to show a causal relationship.  My family is all Lutheran.  I grew up in church.  I was around five when I realized the people around me actually BELIEVED what they were hearing.  Shocked the hell out of me.


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## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

Prince said:


> take your argument up with Stephen Hawking.



I can take him.


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## Leave (May 19, 2011)

MDR said:


> There does seen to be a correlation between the fundamentalist folks and manic behavior. Maybe Stephen can come up with a scientific experiment to show a causal relationship.


 



Good for him if he did, their inanity just seems pretty obvious to me.


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## MDR (May 19, 2011)

Prince said:


> because religious people think that everyone should believe in what they do, if you don't then you're wrong in their eyes, according to them if its in the bible its true. my family is all devote christians and they think I am going to "hell" because I have not accepted Jesus as my savior.



Yep, me too.


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## murf23 (May 19, 2011)

who's crazy ? me ? how is it pitafull for sumone to believe in sumthin stongly enuff to stand up and speak out bout it ...believe me im not that person ...i believe with out a doubt but unfortunatly i dont live my life like a person who believes should in fact im not that good of a person but that dont change the fact that i believe and have the utmost respect for ppl who live their life according to living the way the bible teaches ...but that def is not me ...to each there own but the point is nobody can say for sure what is next ...nobody ...so there nuthin to debate


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## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

MDR said:


> Hey, it's just a theory...
> 
> Also an opinion, and he is entitled to his as much as anyone who is a true believer in the fairy tale.  I don't believe in God or the idea of Heaven and Hell.  Why does anyone who doesn't agree with the fable seen to piss off those who do?



You're 100% correct. It's not like there aren't groups trying to force their beliefs on religious organizations. Or organizations of theists trying to push their agenda against religious organizations.

Yeah, only religious people get upset about stuff like that.


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## myCATpowerlifts (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> who's crazy ? me ? how is it pitafull for sumone to believe in sumthin stongly enuff to stand up and speak out bout it ...believe me im not that person ...i believe with out a doubt but unfortunatly i dont live my life like a person who believes should in fact im not that good of a person but that dont change the fact that i believe and have the utmost respect for ppl who live their life according to living the way the bible teaches ...but that def is not me ...to each there own but the point is nobody can say for sure what is next ...nobody ...so there nuthin to debate



you DO know that the bible was HEAVILY edited by King James' scholars right?
That's a KNOWN FACT that ALL Christians accept as true? The Vatican does not dispute this fact.

So how the fuck are you gonna tell me, you should follow the teachings in the bible when a DICTATOR rewrote as much of it as he saw fit, to CONTROL his people with FEAR.


Also you know what the bible teaches?
Incest is Okay.
Women are subservient to Men.
An Eye for Eye.

....I could go on and on. You are TOTALLY FUCKING BLIND if you are a christian and furthermore, YOU HAVEN'T EVEN READ YOUR OWN RELIGIOUS TEXT.

Fuck you and all those like you.

I understand wanting comfort. But at least admit it's bullshit.


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## Leave (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> who's crazy ? me ? how is it pitafull for sumone to believe in sumthin stongly enuff to stand up and speak out bout it


 
Its crazy for anyone to chastise or condemn those who don't believe what they do. Much like those who believe everyone should look, act, 
and think the same on everything in one big world of dullness. A big reason why racism, dictatorship, and terriorism will always exist.


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## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> You're 100% correct. It's not like there aren't groups trying to force their beliefs on religious organizations. Or organizations of theists trying to push their agenda against religious organizations.
> 
> Yeah, only religious people get upset about stuff like that.



being religious and being atheist are both radical beliefs (left and right), nothing positive comes from that, just like Dems and Repubs, its much better to take the intelligent stance and admit that neither are right and neither can be proved.


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## myCATpowerlifts (May 19, 2011)

TO ANY CHRISTIAN READING THIS:

COME AT ME BRO!
a


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## murf23 (May 19, 2011)

he we go ...mycatpowerlifts..obviously u talkin to me so suk my fukin cock u fukin jerkoff...i was bein normal and jus havin a nice fun bak and forth here but u wanna take it there ...dont b a comp tuff cause only pussy's talk shit on the comp so u prove to b a fukin chump pussy by talkin like that on the comp if u feel like u wanna talk shit to a man do it to his face or dont do it at all pussy ...hey if ur in nyc or close by or ever comin thru and u feel like testin urself and talkin to a mans face like that then please pm me and i will def b able to accomadate ya pussy...until then im really cant get on ur levle anymore and do this comp fightin shit so i will let u shoot ur mouth bak off again which im sure u will but please dont forget my offer to be a man and talk all that shit to a mans face ...to all others sry i was enjoyin passin my time in this thread but this jerkoff deserve a fukin smack ...


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## murf23 (May 19, 2011)

FUKIN PUSSY ...now im done


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## murf23 (May 19, 2011)

im not fukin done ...man do i hate comp tuff guys ...fuuuuk i could could smack ur fukin teeth out if u were close...u fukin chump pussy


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## myCATpowerlifts (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> he we go ...mycatpowerlifts..obviously u talkin to me so suk my fukin cock u fukin jerkoff...i was bein normal and jus havin a nice fun bak and forth here but u wanna take it there ...dont b a comp tuff cause only pussy's talk shit on the comp so u prove to b a fukin chump pussy by talkin like that on the comp if u feel like u wanna talk shit to a man do it to his face or dont do it at all pussy ...hey if ur in nyc or close by or ever comin thru and u feel like testin urself and talkin to a mans face like that then please pm me and i will def b able to accomadate ya pussy...until then im really cant get on ur levle anymore and do this comp fightin shit so i will let u shoot ur mouth bak off again which im sure u will but please dont forget my offer to be a man and talk all that shit to a mans face ...to all others sry i was enjoyin passin my time in this thread but this jerkoff deserve a fukin smack ...



SORRY MAAAAAAN.
But you being normal is exactly my problem.

It's this idea of "being normal" that has caused to much heartache to people in general.

And all you had to say was a bunch of gibberish..Really dude?
that's the best you got?

NO wonder you're mad.

You're a fucking invalid.

I'm not trying to be tough.

I'm just right.

You admitted you weren't even a real follower, so why the fuck do you care?
Don't you see how crazy that is??

No you can't. Because you're too scared. You're scared of death and what is or isn't beyond. So you'll spend your whole human life, skirting around the issue until you die.

Sucks to be you son.


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## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> he we go ...mycatpowerlifts..obviously u talkin to me so suk my fukin cock u fukin jerkoff...i was bein normal and jus havin a nice fun bak and forth here but u wanna take it there ...dont b a comp tuff cause only pussy's talk shit on the comp so u prove to b a fukin chump pussy by talkin like that on the comp if u feel like u wanna talk shit to a man do it to his face or dont do it at all pussy ...hey if ur in nyc or close by or ever comin thru and u feel like testin urself and talkin to a mans face like that then please pm me and i will def b able to accomadate ya pussy...until then im really cant get on ur levle anymore and do this comp fightin shit so i will let u shoot ur mouth bak off again which im sure u will but please dont forget my offer to be a man and talk all that shit to a mans face ...to all others sry i was enjoyin passin my time in this thread but this jerkoff deserve a fukin smack ...



what are you so upset about? do you really care what another member here thinks about your religious beliefs?


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## OfficerFarva (May 19, 2011)

<---------------------------Agnostic


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## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> im not fukin done ...man do i hate comp tuff guys ...fuuuuk i could could smack ur fukin teeth out if u were close...u fukin chump pussy



lol


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## myCATpowerlifts (May 19, 2011)

Prince said:


> lol



He's real Christ like Ain't he prince?


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## Leave (May 19, 2011)

All non-believers will have *HELL TO PAY:*








The price: A weekend with this thing below:








Ha Ha Ha Ha.


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## murf23 (May 19, 2011)

no prince not at all ...i dont care what u think bout my beliefs to each is own ...im not in any way defendin my or anybody elses religion ....this guys words ended wit FUCK U ...where the fuk that come from...i dont defend religion ...thats would never make me that mad lol...who the fuk tellin me to fuk u and all like u ...was havin good time till that ...but u know cuz u dont start that comp tuff guy shit tellin me fuk u ...what i do to deserve  that nuthin ...so please understand my rant wasnt defendin religion it was that whole fuk u thing ..


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## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

people tell me to fuck off all the time online, who cares.


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## Leave (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> no prince not at all ...i dont care what u think bout my beliefs to each is own ...im not in any way defendin my or anybody elses religion ....this guys words ended wit FUCK U ...where the fuk that come from...i dont defend religion ...thats would never make me that mad lol...who the fuk tellin me to fuk u and all like u ...was havin good time till that ...but u know cuz u dont start that comp tuff guy shit tellin me fuk u ...what i do to deserve that nuthin ...so please understand my rant wasnt defendin religion it was that whole fuk u thing ..


 
Gotta love that religious & saintly dialogue. God would be proud, I imagine.


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## blergs. (May 19, 2011)

"can he prove there is no after life or that God doesnt exist ? no ...so its just an opinion"
as good as my own words.......
he is very interesting man though.


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## murf23 (May 19, 2011)

u rite prince ....it jus one of my pet peeves that comp tuff guy shit...especially on here when i know im dealin wit mostly guys like myself in gym and juicin so i try to b a lil more respectful to ppl on this forum and just dont expect that comp tuff guy shit in return...but u rite prince


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## myCATpowerlifts (May 19, 2011)

Leave said:


> All non-believers will have *HELL TO PAY:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Well it'd be better than being trapped with a bunch of monkeys repeating other peoples words without even knowing their meanings or implications


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## irish_2003 (May 19, 2011)

i don't believe in hell so i'm not going to your imaginary world.......

non of us REALLY exist......we're all the figment of imagination of aliens who put us here to cultivate the land and conduct experiments so when they come back they can take our progress as theirs' and enslave us like an "ant farm" or worse........i remember reading as a kid "the little engine who could".....perfect example of what prayer is...."i think i can, i think i can, i think i can".........

maybe we're already in your so-called purgatory? maybe we're not really here at all? who the fuck knows......i know i don't....nor do i care........


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## myCATpowerlifts (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> u rite prince ....it jus one of my pet peeves that comp tuff guy shit...especially on here when i know im dealin wit mostly guys like myself in gym and juicin so i try to b a lil more respectful to ppl on this forum and just dont expect that comp tuff guy shit in return...but u rite prince



Nice strawman argument.
Here, you'll need this: Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wasn't acting tough. I was simply stating the obvious.

That being said, I could still beat your ass.


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## murf23 (May 19, 2011)

u think thats my worst moment leave ...u think God mad at me for that lol  o should here me when im ckokin a bitch out my im stickin my cock in her that i actaully am a lil embarresed about


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## murf23 (May 19, 2011)

im sure u could cat so if u ever passin thru i let u do it just remember to pm me and bring ur cat so i can step on its neck


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## IronAddict (May 19, 2011)

lol ..   True story, Jesus cuts my lawn for me every Thursday morning.


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## Leave (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> im sure u could cat so if u ever passin thru i let u do it just remember to pm me and bring ur cat so i can step on its neck


 

I thought this guy was a saint. God doesn't approve of feline abuse. 
Puts you that much closer to a date with Lucifer. He can't wait....


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## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> u think thats my worst moment leave ...u think God mad at me for that lol  o should here me when im ckokin a bitch out my im stickin my cock in her that i actaully am a lil embarresed about



god is okay with you having sex however it must be missionary style and only for the purpose of procreation, not pleasure, I believe that is what the bible says, of course they may have modified it, isn't masturbation now okay in god's eyes so the bible was changed?


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## myCATpowerlifts (May 19, 2011)

IronAddict said:


> lol ..   True story, Jesus cuts my lawn for me every Thursday morning.


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## Leave (May 19, 2011)

> Originally Posted by *IronAddict*
> 
> 
> _lol .. True story, Jesus cuts my lawn for me every Thursday morning._


 

So Jesus is doing community service just moments after parole. Good for him.


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## myCATpowerlifts (May 19, 2011)

Leave said:


> Originally Posted by *IronAddict*
> 
> 
> _lol .. True story, Jesus cuts my lawn for me every Thursday morning._
> ...


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## bandaidwoman (May 19, 2011)

he's a physicist so he doesn't know the neurophysiology research showing massive amounts of light emmission from the brain at the moment of death. 

 If those light waves are the last convulsive electromagnetic emmission of our memories, as a physicist he should know that special relativity says that time will dilate to infinity when something reaches the speed of light.  There may be no heaven but special relativity and quantum  mechanics does allow for an afterlife consisting of our memories captured in photons of light in an infinite loop.  Thus, people like me with great lives , it will be heaven, the poor blokes trapped in child slavery etc. what a miserable existance, and makes human suffering much more intolerable.


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## Glycomann (May 19, 2011)

Hawking has examined the physical sciences at a level that only a hand full of men in history have. He feels he can explain mostly anything without invoking the existence of God. God is not necessary to explain the workings of the universe.  Therefore the likelihood of his existence is small.  Then Steven examines the works that many religious men do in the name of their god and there is little evidence that these acts are for anything but self interest. Again there is no reason to invoke the existence of god.  Therefore the likelihood of the existence of a god is small.


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## Dale Mabry (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> he we go ...mycatpowerlifts..obviously u talkin to me so suk my fukin cock u fukin jerkoff...i was bein normal and jus havin a nice fun bak and forth here but u wanna take it there ...dont b a comp tuff cause only pussy's talk shit on the comp so u prove to b a fukin chump pussy by talkin like that on the comp if u feel like u wanna talk shit to a man do it to his face or dont do it at all pussy ...hey if ur in nyc or close by or ever comin thru and u feel like testin urself and talkin to a mans face like that then please pm me and i will def b able to accomadate ya pussy...until then im really cant get on ur levle anymore and do this comp fightin shit so i will let u shoot ur mouth bak off again which im sure u will but please dont forget my offer to be a man and talk all that shit to a mans face ...to all others sry i was enjoyin passin my time in this thread but this jerkoff deserve a fukin smack ...



How Christian of you.


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## largepkg (May 19, 2011)

I'm agnostic but I do find it interesting that some of you are talking about religious zealots cramming their beliefs down your throat. It would seem in this thread the opposite is true...


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## ROID (May 19, 2011)

We are God.

We are the creators. 

There is not a Heaven or a Hell.


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## KelJu (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> who's crazy ? me ? how is it pitafull for sumone to believe in sumthin stongly enuff to stand up and speak out bout it ...believe me im not that person ...i believe with out a doubt but unfortunatly i dont live my life like a person who believes should in fact im not that good of a person but that dont change the fact that i believe and have the utmost respect for ppl who live their life according to living the way the bible teaches ...but that def is not me ...to each there own but the point is nobody can say for sure what is next ...nobody ...so there nuthin to debate





Your language skills are impressively awful. I would like to debate the position that anyone who communicates like you should have been aborted.


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## myCATpowerlifts (May 19, 2011)

ROID said:


> We are God.
> 
> We are the creators.
> 
> There is not a Heaven or a Hell.



This.

/thread


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## myCATpowerlifts (May 19, 2011)

bandaidwoman said:


> he's a physicist so he doesn't know the neurophysiology research showing massive amounts of light emmission from the brain at the moment of death.
> 
> If those light waves are the last convulsive electromagnetic emmission of our memories, as a physicist he should know that special relativity says that time will dilate to infinity when something reaches the speed of light.  There may be no heaven but special relativity and quantum  mechanics does allow for an afterlife consisting of our memories captured in photons of light in an infinite loop.  Thus, people like me with great lives , it will be heaven, the poor blokes trapped in child slavery etc. what a miserable existance, and makes human suffering much more intolerable.



Read this shit if you wanna trip out dudes!
Bandaid woman, will you marry me?


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## SFW (May 19, 2011)

I wonder when the last time hawking got a boner or had his dick sucked. Probably decades. Of course he doesnt believe in heaven, his life is a living hell.


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## MDR (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> You're 100% correct. It's not like there aren't groups trying to force their beliefs on religious organizations. Or organizations of theists trying to push their agenda against religious organizations.
> 
> Yeah, only religious people get upset about stuff like that.



Atheists get upset when the religious try to foist their beliefs on others, not at the idea of people believing in monotheism.  Many atheists are very tolerant, spiritual people.  

Core atheists like myself simply believe in no gods of any kind. The fact that I believe the propagation of religion is both dangerous and deleterious to humanity in many cases is only proven by the actions of many religious people who use religion to justify tremendous violence and destruction in the world.  Religion is not just the opiate of the masses, but sadly often a justification for overt destruction and hate.  I am a card-carrying member of the American Atheist movement, and I believe strongly that the movement has done a lot of good for this country.


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (May 19, 2011)

SFW said:


> I wonder when the last time hawking got a boner or had his dick sucked. Probably decades. Of course he doesnt believe in heaven, his life is a living hell.



His life is a living hell.

But you'd think that would make him a "believer".

No... I don't think his life situation is why he feels the way he does.
He just can't argue against his own natural logic.


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (May 19, 2011)

MDR said:


> Atheists get upset when the religious try to foist their beliefs on others, not at the idea of people believing in monotheism.  Many atheists are very tolerant, spiritual people.
> 
> Core atheists like myself simply believe in no gods of any kind. The fact that I believe the propagation of religion is both dangerous and deleterious to humanity in many cases is only proven by the actions of many religious people who use religion to justify tremendous violence and destruction in the world.  Religion is not just the opiate of the masses, but sadly often a justification for overt destruction and hate.



Exactrree.


----------



## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

MDR said:


> Atheists get upset when the religious try to foist their beliefs on others, not at the idea of people believing in monotheism.  Many atheists are very tolerant, spiritual people.
> 
> Core atheists like myself simply believe in no gods of any kind. The fact that I believe the propagation of religion is both dangerous and deleterious to humanity in many cases is only proven by the actions of many religious people who use religion to justify tremendous violence and destruction in the world.  Religion is not just the opiate of the masses, but sadly often a justification for overt destruction and hate.



Oh, so _your_ group is full of "tolerant, spiritual people", but the _other_ group is 
"dangerous and deleterious to humanity".

Go it. 

Never mind that the greatest killers of the 20th century were atheists.

Right.


----------



## SFW (May 19, 2011)

Shouldnt you be patrolling the border in your pick up, jasper?


----------



## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

SFW said:


> Shouldnt you be patrolling the border in your pick up, jasper?



Awetbacksayswhat?


----------



## MDR (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> Oh, so _your_ group is full of "tolerant, spiritual people", but the _other_ group is
> "dangerous and deleterious to humanity".
> 
> Go it.
> ...



More people have been killed and maimed in the name of religion than anything else in human history.  I didn't say that religious people were all dangerous to humanity.  Some are productive members of society, and very nice, well-meaning people.  Pretty much my entire family falls into this category. But if you look at the lunatic fringe connected to religion, they do far more harm than good.


----------



## murf23 (May 19, 2011)

KelJu anotha tuff guy huh...pass on thru and we see how tuff u talk in person


----------



## largepkg (May 19, 2011)

Anyone else believe that to some degree humanity's downfall is knowledge? We come to believe so strongly in what we can see, touch, feel, and understand that we forget we don't know squat. Relatively speaking of course.

Bandaidwoman's approach is much more interesting a topic than "he does or does not".


----------



## largepkg (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> KelJu anotha tuff guy huh...pass on thru and we see how tuff u talk in person



Actually, Kelju IS a tough guy mixed in with a bit of crazy while still remaining cool. 

People can have differences of opinion. Plus in a forum where text conveys thought. Proper use of it would seem imperative.


----------



## murf23 (May 19, 2011)

im a writing a paper for my college class ...i write my own version shorthand on the computer is that alright with you, do i have your permission ...i dont need to fukin spell chek here if u can read it then job is fukin done cunt ....man i cant believe how many lil cunts are on this board these are the same lil cock suckers who blow their sources balls on the source forum ...these are the guys in the gym gettin huge and doin juice ...it cant b i just cant believe it ...or are these the lil pussies tellin mne to keep it down in the gym and please dont drop the waits ..this fukin thread brought so many lil ball sniffin lil whinny bitches out from under their gym towel ...go back to ur book while im busy gettin huge and bangin ur gf and all other politicly correct lil pussies like u


----------



## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

MDR said:


> More people have been killed and maimed in the name of religion than anything else in human history.  I didn't say that religious people were all dangerous to humanity.  Some are productive members of society, and very nice, well-meaning people.  Pretty much my entire family falls into this category. But if you look at the lunatic fringe connected to religion, they do far more harm than good.



I can agree that the lunatic fringe is good for no one.

And, based on simple statistics, I'll also agree that religious people have killed more people for the simple fact that for the last 6 to 10 thousands years there have been more religious people. 

However, believing that atheists are less prone to killing is a logical fallacy. That's like the belief that woman are less prone to abusing power than men. Which in obstinately true in absolute numbers, but falls apart when you consider that women have only been allowed to have power for a short time; and when you check the per-capita numbers, the belief is clearly wrong.


----------



## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

largepkg said:


> Actually, Kelju IS a tough guy mixed in with a bit of crazy while still remaining cool.



What he said.


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## largepkg (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> im a writing a paper for my college class ...i write my own version shorthand on the computer is that alright with you, do i have your permission ...i dont need to fukin spell chek here if u can read it then job is fukin done cunt ....man i cant believe how many lil cunts are on this board these are the same lil cock suckers who blow their sources balls on the source forum ...these are the guys in the gym gettin huge and doin juice ...it cant b i just cant believe it ...or are these the lil pussies tellin mne to keep it down in the gym and please dont drop the waits ..this fukin thread brought so many lil ball sniffin lil whinny bitches out from under their gym towel ...




I disagree.


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## Hench (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> im a writing a paper for my college class ...i write  my own version shorthand on the computer is that alright with you, do i have your permission ...i dont need to fukin spell chek here if u can read it then job is fukin done cunt ....



If you want people to acknowledge your opinion then yes, you do have to spell check and use correct punctuation.  

You should also save the word cunt for special occasions, this is not one of them.


----------



## largepkg (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> im a writing a paper for my college class ...i write my own version shorthand on the computer is that alright with you, do i have your permission ...i dont need to fukin spell chek here if u can read it then job is fukin done cunt ....man i cant believe how many lil cunts are on this board these are the same lil cock suckers who blow their sources balls on the source forum ...these are the guys in the gym gettin huge and doin juice ...it cant b i just cant believe it ...or are these the lil pussies tellin mne to keep it down in the gym and please dont drop the waits ..this fukin thread brought so many lil ball sniffin lil whinny bitches out from under their gym towel ...




You drop the weights too?


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## murf23 (May 19, 2011)

listen i dont have the patience or tolarence to sit here and b attacked and b kool bout it...if any of u guys who took this to anotha levle and made personal remarks to me i garuntee u wouldnt do it in person so im askin real nice for my benifet because like i said i cant handle it even if it is just comp bs im not capable of keepin my kool...please enuff wit tuff guy words please ....who the fuk does that , what kind of real man wants to b tuff only on the comp...i def dont but i cant sit here and not respond its not in my nature please already b tuff in person and not on the comp cause in the end im the only 1 who gonna lose cause im gonna threatin everybody and continue to lose my kool and eventaully get banned cause i wont let it go ....so as long as its just on the comp i give up and u who personally attacked me win....im sry u win,  u got me u are the man


----------



## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> listen i dont have the patience or tolarence to sit here and b attacked and b kool bout it...if any of u guys who took this to anotha levle and made personal remarks to me i garuntee u wouldnt do it in person so im askin real nice for my benifet because like i said i cant handle it even if it is just comp bs im not capable of keepin my kool...please enuff wit tuff guy words please ....who the fuk does that , what kind of real man wants to b tuff only on the comp...i def dont but i cant sit here and not respond its not in my nature please already b tuff in person and not on the comp cause in the end im the only 1 who gonna lose cause im gonna threatin everybody and continue to lose my kool and eventaully get banned cause i wont let it go ....so as long as its just on the comp i give up and u who personally attacked me win....im sry u win,  u got me u are the man



Your writing makes me want to be an atheist. With that sort of grammar, there can be no god.


----------



## murf23 (May 19, 2011)

its my comp typing ...if i were to type with all correct spelling and periods and grammer i would b here for an hour...i was busy cutting class during computer lessons ...if u can understand it then its good enough for me. i type with 2 fingers only not the way i was taught but i dont sit on the computer for a living so what difference does it make


----------



## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> its my comp typing ...if i were to type with all correct spelling and periods and grammer i would b here for an hour...i was busy cutting class during computer lessons ...if u can understand it then its good enough for me. i type with 2 fingers only not the way i was taught but i dont sit on the computer for a living so what difference does it make



It matters because on the Internet what you say and how you say it is all that you are.

What we say can be debated as to its merits or truthfulness, but there is no debating the failure that is poor grammar. Does it mean that every post must get an A+ from an English teacher? No, but it does mean that you should put forth at least a modicum of effort.

Poor grammar is the Internet equivalent of being a wigger and going to a wine tasting. There will indeed be a whole lot of spitting.


----------



## SilentBob187 (May 19, 2011)

murf23 said:


> listen i dont have the patience or tolarence to sit here and b attacked and b kool bout it...if any of u guys who took this to anotha levle and made personal remarks to me i garuntee u wouldnt do it in person so im askin real nice for my benifet because like i said i cant handle it even if it is just comp bs im not capable of keepin my kool...please enuff wit tuff guy words please ....who the fuk does that , what kind of real man wants to b tuff only on the comp...i def dont but i cant sit here and not respond its not in my nature please already b tuff in person and not on the comp cause in the end im the only 1 who gonna lose cause im gonna threatin everybody and continue to lose my kool and eventaully get banned cause i wont let it go ....so as long as its just on the comp i give up and u who personally attacked me win....im sry u win,  u got me u are the man





murf23 said:


> its my comp typing ...if i were to type with all correct spelling and periods and grammer i would b here for an hour...i was busy cutting class during computer lessons ...if u can understand it then its good enough for me. i type with 2 fingers only not the way i was taught but i dont sit on the computer for a living so what difference does it make









GICH!


----------



## Hench (May 19, 2011)

lol ^^^ That's how I learnt to touch type. I can still head the audio in my head now, 'dip your right pinky in the yellow pot of paint, now dip your left pinky in the orange pot of paint'. 

Can knock it too much though, shit works.


----------



## fufu (May 19, 2011)

Prince said:


> that is like me saying Unicorns exist, and you cannot prove they don't.



No it's not. But it could be like, unicorns _might_ exist because we can't prove they don't. Even though, it is apples and oranges.

Unicorns would be some sort of terrain mammal, something we could search for. It would be something on the surface of our planet, something palpable, something physical.

Death and what may be beyond death cannot be quantified or recorded in anyway. Completely different. People who die cannot come back and tell us what happened. However, there has been anecdotal evidence of similar phenomena occurring when people have near death experiences or people who are resuscitated. This is not proof, but it is something to consider.  

Hawking is awesome, but he has no proof that there is nothing beyond death. He is ignoring science in these statements. One could say Hawking is oversimplifying what happens when a human dies for his own comfort. Maybe he doesn't want to consider the possibilities. Whatever.

I am a very evidence based person, and I think it is important to be skeptical. Hawkings claims are arrogant, in my opinion.


----------



## MDR (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> I can agree that the lunatic fringe is good for no one.
> 
> And, based on simple statistics, I'll also agree that religious people have killed more people for the simple fact that for the last 6 to 10 thousands years there have been more religious people.
> 
> However, believing that atheists are less prone to killing is a logical fallacy. That's like the belief that woman are less prone to abusing power than men. Which in obstinately true in absolute numbers, but falls apart when you consider that women have only been allowed to have power for a short time; and when you check the per-capita numbers, the belief is clearly wrong.



I agree that being Atheist is no guarantee of being non-violent.  Crazy people of every ilk.  Also that there are far more religious people than Atheist.  My point was just that more violence has happened throughout history in the name of religion.  If someone broke into our condo and threatened my wife or myself, I would definitely use extreme violence to prevent that from happening.  One of the reasons I go to the gun range fairly frequently.  I have no problem with violence if it is justified.  I guess the problem for some comes in determining what is or isn't justifiable.  Lot of very confused folks out there.


----------



## BillHicksFan (May 19, 2011)

He is basically saying that heaven is a manmade concept. All life on this planet originated from single celled organisms almost 4 billion years ago. This isn't a theory in the hypothesis sense, it's a fact.
At what stage during the evolutionary process did our invisible God (whichever one you were indoctinated into believing in) implant a soul into our bodies and what makes humans so special? Every species is good at what they do and thinking happens to be our survival mechanism. We didn't just evolve from primates, we are primates and I think that's pretty cool. God is much more creative than you give her credit for. 
The only reason to believe there is such thing as heaven or hell is because it's written in the bible, a book that is clearly based on fiction. To debate this fact should put any christian is a state of embarrassment.

What humans have discovered about the nature of reality belittles all scriptures yet for some reason a good majority of the the human race continue to believe myth and superstition over logic and reason. Ironically, it is the U.S. in particular who seem to be absorbed in all forms of Christianity. 
The rest of the western world is dropping Christianity like a hot rock due to new information. They haven't moved onto a different religion, they just have the ability to admit that there is more answers than questions and that someday we will know more.

This video and others from this channel are brilliant and well worth the watch.





YouTube Video


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## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

bandaidwoman said:


> he's a physicist so he doesn't know the neurophysiology research showing massive amounts of light emmission from the brain at the moment of death.
> 
> If those light waves are the last convulsive electromagnetic emmission of our memories, as a physicist he should know that special relativity says that time will dilate to infinity when something reaches the speed of light.  There may be no heaven but special relativity and quantum  mechanics does allow for an afterlife consisting of our memories captured in photons of light in an infinite loop.  Thus, people like me with great lives , it will be heaven, the poor blokes trapped in child slavery etc. what a miserable existance, and makes human suffering much more intolerable.



Yeah, but are those lights as bright as Rudolph the Rednose Reindeer's nose?


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## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

Glycomann said:


> Hawking has examined the physical sciences at a level that only a hand full of men in history have. He feels he can explain mostly anything without invoking the existence of God. God is not necessary to explain the workings of the universe.  Therefore the likelihood of his existence is small.  Then Steven examines the works that many religious men do in the name of their god and there is little evidence that these acts are for anything but self interest. Again there is no reason to invoke the existence of god.  Therefore the likelihood of the existence of a god is small.



this.


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## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

MDR said:


> I agree that being Atheist is no guarantee of being non-violent.  Crazy people of every ilk.  Also that there are far more religious people than Atheist.  My point was just that more violence has happened throughout history in the name of religion.  If someone broke into our condo and threatened my wife or myself, I would definitely use extreme violence to prevent that from happening.  One of the reasons I go to the gun range fairly frequently.  I have no problem with violence if it is justified.  I guess the problem for some comes in determining what is or isn't justifiable.  Lot of very confused folks out there.



My point is that atheists are no more, or less, prone to violence that religious people; and vice versa.

Simply that.


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## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> My point is that atheists are no more, or less, prone to violence that religious people; and vice versa.
> 
> Simply that.



I know that 9-11 was because of religious beliefs.


----------



## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

Prince said:


> I know that 9-11 was because of religious beliefs.



Tho 20 million killed by Stalin wasn't.


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## BillHicksFan (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> Tho 20 million killed by Stalin wasn't.



Both Stalin and Hitler had a moustache but we don't blame the mass murder of innocent people on moustaches.


----------



## KelJu (May 19, 2011)

Looky here, I got me a new pen pal. 



			
				muff23 said:
			
		

> hey pussy ...i hope ur mother gets raped in her fukin ass u lil bitch...keep bein a tuff guy on the comp u fukin punk ...if u had any balls u only would say that in person ..ur u fukin lil bitch pussy and i hope nuthin but sufferin for u and ur family u pussy ...u dont like what i have to say then do sumthin about it bitch ....keep tellin ppl they shulda been aborted u cunt ...i hope ur wife gets raped by the same guy who rapes ur mother and both of em get pregnant and keep the baby and u have to look at them till the day u die skumbag...any problems wit me pass on thru and handle it like a man please im beggin u


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## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

BillHicksFan said:


> Both Stalin and Hitler had a moustache but we don't blame the mass murder of innocent people on moustaches.



A mustache is not a defining characteristic of a person. Race, gender, and ideology are such characteristics.


----------



## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> Tho 20 million killed by Stalin wasn't.



I know you're a smart guy, but *wow* I can't believe you're defending religion.

I ask you this: how many people throughout history, up until today, have been killed in the name of religion and/or god?


----------



## BillHicksFan (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> A mustache is not a defining characteristic of a person. Race, gender, and ideology are such characteristics.




You believe in God and I do not. Why is it that we can both agree that mass murder is wrong?

That argument is redundant and you know it.


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## Arnold (May 19, 2011)

because religion does not work very well when you throw logic into it.


----------



## MDR (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> My point is that atheists are no more, or less, prone to violence that religious people; and vice versa.
> 
> Simply that.



My argument is simply that murder in the name of Religion is far more likely than murder in the name of Atheism.  Atheists do not kill in the name of their cause, although they may kill for many other reasons.  Stalin did not kill over the idea of Atheism, he killed anyone who he saw as standing in the path of his communist utopia, and more specifically, for personal power.  He was a murderer, but it wasn't due to the fact that he didn't believe in god.


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## MDR (May 19, 2011)

Prince said:


> I know you're a smart guy, but *wow* I can't believe you're defending religion.
> 
> I ask you this: how many people throughout history, up until today, have been killed in the name of religion and/or god?



Exactly


----------



## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

MDR said:


> My argument is simply that murder in the name of Religion is far more likely than murder in the name of Atheism.  Atheists do not kill in the name of their cause, although they may kill for many other reasons.  Stalin did not kill over the idea of Atheism, he killed anyone who he saw as standing in the path of his communist utopia, and more specifically, for personal power.  He was a murderer, but it wasn't due to the fact that he didn't believe in god.



But you'll note that someone that didn't believe in god did a whole lot of killing, but since he's not religious, that makes it better.

So, because atheists kill for money or power it somehow better than killing for an ideology? That's just as stupid a thought as that which created hate laws.

That's awesome.


----------



## BillHicksFan (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> But you'll note that someone that didn't believe in god did a whole lot of killing, but since he's not religious, that makes it better.
> 
> So, because atheists kill for money or power it somehow better than killing for an ideology? That's just as stupid a thought as that which created hate laws.
> 
> That's awesome.



I amazed at your flawed logic, DOMS. Morality is based on limiting the suffering of other human beings. It has nothing to do with religions.


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## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

BillHicksFan said:


> I amazed at your flawed logic, DOMS. Morality is based on limiting the suffering of other human beings. It has nothing to do with religions.



Nothing to do with religion? The basis of most religions is tending to the needs of people. You can have morality without religion, though.

But yes, keep telling yourself that all religious people lack the high morality that you possess.


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## MDR (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> But you'll note that someone that didn't believe in god did a whole lot of killing, but since he's not religious, that makes it better.
> 
> So, because atheists kill for money or power it somehow better than killing for an ideology? That's just as stupid a thought as that which created hate laws.
> 
> That's awesome.



Now you are just reading things into what I am saying.  I never stated that Stalin was a good guy.  He was a ruthless and brutal dictator.  I also never argued that killing can be excused unless justified.  I've made my points clearly, and I stand by what I said.


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## MDR (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> Nothing to do with religion? The basis of most religions is tending to the needs of people. You can have morality without religion, though.
> 
> But yes, keep telling yourself that all religious people lack the high morality that you possess.



Religion is no guarantee of morality, or even decency.


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## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

MDR said:


> Religion is no guarantee of morality, or even decency.



Neither does atheism, which seems to bother you.


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## DOMS (May 19, 2011)

MDR said:


> Now you are just reading things into what I am saying.  I never stated that Stalin was a good guy.  He was a ruthless and brutal dictator.  I also never argued that killing can be excused unless justified.  I've made my points clearly, and I stand by what I said.



Since you have forgotten what you wrote, here it is again in its entirety (emphasis mine).



> *My argument is simply that murder in the name of Religion is far more  likely than murder in the name of Atheism*.  Atheists do not kill in the  name of their cause, although they may kill for many other reasons.   *Stalin* did not kill over the idea of Atheism, he *killed* anyone who he  saw as standing in the path of his communist utopia, and more  specifically, *for* *personal power*.  He was a murderer, but it wasn't due  to the fact that he didn't believe in god.



Stalin is an atheist who killed for power, whereas some religious people killed in the names of their organization, which somehow makes it worse, or in other words, makes Stalin's killing for power a bit more okay.

That is, after all, what _you_ wrote.


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## MDR (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> Neither does atheism, which seems to bother you.



Not in the least.


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## BillHicksFan (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> Nothing to do with religion? The basis of most religions is tending to the needs of people. You can have morality without religion, though.
> 
> But yes, keep telling yourself that all religious people lack the high morality that you possess.



No, the basis of most religions was to control the masses. Now we have governments for this and these ancient religions no longer serve their purpose. Sure they have a set of morals to abide by however they always manage to put add-ons to their code of morality that forbids people to do things that are simply none of their business. Telling people what to eat, when to eat, how and who to have sex with all has nothing to do with God and everything to do with mind control. Christians can even be charged with thought crime. You can't escape the wraith of religion if you are a true believer.

Thankfully, it is despite religion that our morality is forever improving as women now have rights, slavery and pedophilia have been forbidden, gays and people who work on the day of the sabbath are no longer stoned to death, disobedient children are no longer murdered, the list goes on and on.
As stated in this thread, there has been far more blood spilled in the name of religion than by the hand of all the mass murders of the modern world and both believers and non believer alike can agree that this shouldn't ever be tolerated again.

I'll go as far as to say that your morality has exceeded the morality of Christian scripture by a long shot. If it hadn't you'd be in jail or on death row.


----------



## GearsMcGilf (May 19, 2011)

> The physicist's remarks draw a stark line between the use of God as a  metaphor and the belief in an omniscient creator whose hands guide the  workings of the cosmos.



Hawkins is clearly not an true Atheist juging by the comment, as he is rejecting the notion of a paternal figure wathing over us and the enforcement of a man made religious belief system.  He does acknowledge of an omniscient creator who guides the working of the universe.  The latter is not aethiesm, just seeking knowledge without the confines of a man made religion.  Atheism is the assumption that the human intellect is is an omniscient creator can not possibly exist because humans can not detect it with our 5 human senses, none of which can be fully explained by modern science to date.


----------



## BillHicksFan (May 19, 2011)

Atheism is the rejection of the belief in any manmade god. ^  To claim ultimate knowledge would be ignorant and non-scientific.


----------



## MDR (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> Since you have forgotten what you wrote, here it is again in its entirety (emphasis mine).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What seems to bother you is that your statement does nothing to disprove what I said.  I haven't forgotten anything.  My claim is that Athiests are capable of violence, but it is seldom related to their Atheistic beliefs.  Other motivations separate from their lack of belief in god are directly responsible.  On the other hand more people have been killed in the name of god and religion than any other single motivation.  I stand by that statement, and nothing you have said, or can say, disproves it.


----------



## soxmuscle (May 19, 2011)

largepkg said:


> Actually, Kelju IS a tough guy mixed in with a bit of crazy while still remaining cool.



I'm just now catching up.

This is the best description of Kelju ever.


----------



## troubador (May 19, 2011)

Prince said:


> I ask you this: how many people throughout history, up until today, have been killed in the name of religion and/or god?



What about in the name of justice, peace and liberty? Have you not realized what type of morality you are adhering to by condemning religion in this regard? I've noticed there seems to be a difference in atheists who condemn religion because of this and those who don't.


----------



## soxmuscle (May 19, 2011)

prince said:


> because religion does not work very well when you throw logic into it.



+1


----------



## troubador (May 19, 2011)

MDR said:


> My claim is that Athiests are capable of violence, but it is seldom related to their Atheistic beliefs.



I think this is true basically by definition. Atheism is a lack of belief in god. For the same reason we are not required to prove a negative in logic, atheism at its core has no beliefs which one could be motivated by. In other words, atheism could be thought of as an absence of beliefs and therefore an absence of motives. 

It's silly to compare religion and atheism in this regard and I think it's a discredit to those who also boast that science and reason are on their side.


----------



## Chubby (May 19, 2011)




----------



## MDR (May 19, 2011)

troubador said:


> I think this is true basically by definition. Atheism is a lack of belief in god. For the same reason we are not required to prove a negative in logic, atheism at its core has no beliefs which one could be motivated by. In other words, atheism could be thought of as an absence of beliefs and therefore an absence of motives.
> 
> It's silly to compare religion and atheism in this regard and I think it's a discredit to those who also boast that science and reason are on their side.



I agree 100%.  All Atheists I know adhere to the idea that Atheism is by definition a lack of belief in God.  You can't possibly kill to defend a belief that by definition is not a belief.  The very idea is pretty laughable, really.


----------



## LAM (May 19, 2011)

Prince said:


> I know that 9-11 was because of religious beliefs.



several of Bush's professors at Harvard have stated that he would lie frequently, get caught then deny and get very upset when confronted about it by classmates.  one of his professors also spoke about how he had a particular distaste for the "poor" and showed no empathy towards them, he stated it was obvious that he was not brought up properly. 

there probably aren't too many leaders in the modern world that do not have some issues for even wanting to be in such places of high power but specifically talking about GWB no doubt he displayed many narcissistic traits, not sure about having full blown NPD.

it was an Israel paper that quoted Bush as saying that "Gold told him to strike Al Queda and Saddam".  but anyone that has read excerpts from the Defense Planning Guide knows for years they were just looking for an excuse to topple Saddam and to bring democracy to that region they thought for sure since we had the receipts from the chemicals shipped to him that plan would work out.  everyone knows that democracy is the pre-requiste to capitalism, and multi-national corps spread like viruses from country to country.

not sure about other countries but in the US when a person of power claims that "god told them" the masses simply except it, Palin also does this when speaking and in her Tweets.


----------



## BillHicksFan (May 19, 2011)

troubador said:


> It's silly to compare religion and atheism in this regard and I think it's a discredit to those who also boast that science and reason are on their side.




Science and reason is all we have to work with. I don't believe people boast about science being on their side. Science doesn't choose sides. It simply finds what is true and what is false.


----------



## LAM (May 19, 2011)

BillHicksFan said:


> Science and reason is all we have to work with. I don't believe people boast about science being on their side. Science doesn't choose sides. It simply finds what is true and what is false.



Stephen stated that when we die synapse stop firing and we loss consciousness forever and that is why there is no "heaven" in terms of the joyous place spoken about in Christianity.


----------



## BillHicksFan (May 19, 2011)

LAM said:


> Stephen stated that when we die synapse stop firing and we loss consciousness forever and that is why there is no "heaven" in terms of the joyous place spoken about in Christianity.



I don't understand how your point refers to my quote. I agree that after we die we will return to exactly the same state of consciouness that we were in before we were born which is nothing. However, the energy which makes up the atomic structure of our bodies will transform for an eternity. That's as close to an eternal life as we are ever going to get, IMHO.


----------



## LAM (May 19, 2011)

BillHicksFan said:


> I don't understand how your point refers to my quote. I agree that after we die we will return to exactly the same state of consciouness that we were in before we were born which is nothing. However, the energy which makes up the atomic structure of our bodies will transform for an eternity. That's as close to an eternal life as we are ever going to get, IMHO.



to me it sounded like he was just trying to squash the notion of "heaven or hell" in the sense of the human spirit being in conscious state where one could actually interact at this new level of being.

the physics law regarding the conservation of energy states that it can neither be created or destroyed it can only change forms.  based on that I think he was implying that our energy "spirit" may go somewhere else but not in any capacity were consciousness or any state of being is involved.


----------



## BillHicksFan (May 19, 2011)

LAM said:


> to me it sounded like he was just trying to squash the notion of "heaven or hell" in the sense of the human spirit being in conscious state where one could actually interact at this new level of being.
> 
> the physics law regarding the conservation of energy states that it can neither be created or destroyed it can only change forms.  based on that I think he was implying that our energy "spirit" may go somewhere else but not in any capacity were consciousness or any state of being is involved.



That's something I think about often however we need to be realistic and realise that we, along with all lifeforms have evolved from single celled organisms therefore we need to ask ourselves at what point exactly did we have souls inserted into us along the evolutionary chain.
If we have spirits/souls then you'd assume that single celled organisms also have souls.

The more I think about it, the more it scrambles my brain.


----------



## LAM (May 19, 2011)

BillHicksFan said:


> If we have spirits/souls then you'd assume that single celled organisms also have souls.
> 
> The more I think about it, the more it scrammbles my brain.



that or at least all lifeforms with higher levels of intelligence that are aware of their existence, take the canine for example.  they feel many of the same emotions as we do, joy, sadness, anticipation, etc. and are definitely aware of their environment.  I have a 3.5 year old porti and let me tell you he manipulates me to get things he wants and desires.  all dog owners see this more or less depending on the intelligence of the breed.  and anyone that with 2 dogs that has had one of them die 1 has seen the other dog mourn the loss of the other.  I find it difficult to believe that somehow we do not come from and return to the same place.   a place nothing at all like the stores told by Judea-Christianity, etc.


----------



## SFW (May 19, 2011)

DOMS said:


> My point is that atheists are no more, or less, prone to violence that religious people; and vice versa.
> 
> Simply that.



I agree with the self loathing mexican. However, there are no scientific data reports to substantiate this. But its a solid opinion.


----------



## BillHicksFan (May 19, 2011)

Look at your jail statistics. The amount of atheists in U.S. prisons compared to the atheists on your streets. I'll have a search and see if I can find them. The results are interesting.
History proves that good people will murder in the name of their God and are only too keen to do so. In the bible it was Abraham who took a knife to his own son's throat in order to prove his love to God. If that were me, I would have told God to go fuck himself.


----------



## Imosted (May 20, 2011)

BillHicksFan said:


> That's something I think about often however we need to be realistic and realise that we, along with all lifeforms have evolved from single celled organisms therefore we need to ask ourselves at what point exactly did we have souls inserted into us along the evolutionary chain.
> If we have spirits/souls then you'd assume that single celled organisms also have souls.
> 
> T*he more I think about it, the more it scrambles my brain.*



_Most religions say not to think, not to question but to believe or as they say have FAITH._ That is the problem. That is why i like science If we didn't ask why how we would still be in stone age.


----------



## bandaidwoman (May 20, 2011)

Imosted said:


> _Most religions say not to think, not to question but to believe or as they say have FAITH._ That is the problem. That is why i like science If we didn't ask why how we would still be in stone age.



religion is good force when done correctly but it often confuses ethics with true morality.  Secular humanism is why slavery is frowned upon, all religious texts condone slavery, in essence, slavery is not ethically inconsistent with all the religious texts, including the new testament.  Secular humanism is why women can be individuals instead of property, which we pretty much were in almost all the religious books.  When an athiest kills, there is no defensible reason why.  Richard the Lion heart, muslim terrorists etc.kill innocents but feel that ethically they have been justified.

Jesus taught true kindness , not just empty charity, to the social outcasts, prostitutes, disabled and poor.  The supposed christians in the south spew so much venom and spittle of hatred against blacks, immigrants, the poor, the addicts, prostitutes and gays and the disabled..  The very people Jesus would embrace.  I don't see the athiests down here with such spittle dripping from their mouths.  Probably because salvation in christianity is belief and indoctrination unlike the  jews and buddists who believe actions, not belief , is what defines you in god's eyes.


----------



## Glycomann (May 20, 2011)

BillHicksFan said:


> Both Stalin and Hitler had a moustache but we don't blame the mass murder of innocent people on moustaches.



Stalin wished to remove religion as did Mao.  This was to remove all other ideologies other than communism.  In a way you can say the implementation of communism in China and Russia were the usurping of the former ancient ideologies, religion, for the new ideology, communism. Same principles of rule over masses.  Just a different ideology.


----------



## KelJu (May 20, 2011)

Glycomann said:


> Stalin wished to remove religion as did Mao.  This was to remove all other ideologies other than communism.  In a way you can say the implementation of communism in China and Russia were the usurping of the former ancient ideologies, religion, for the new ideology, communism. Same principles of rule over masses.  Just a different ideology.



This! Ruthless dictators use their own brand of fear based ideologies to suppress competing ideologies. Nationalism, communism, socialism, ect, they all become a form of instituted religion. The only real difference is they don't go to Sunday School.  

Stalin, Pot, and Mao didn't commit horrible atrocities because of their lack of belief in God. They did so because they were evil and power hungry. They needed a tool to keep control and order while they did what they wanted, and Communism fit nicely with their leadership style.


----------



## phosphor (May 20, 2011)

Prince said:


> that is like me saying Unicorns exist, and you cannot prove they don't.


 
Prince, I know what you did last summer.


----------



## Chubby (May 20, 2011)

"When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land." ​~ Denmond Tutu


----------



## troubador (May 20, 2011)

BillHicksFan said:


> Science and reason is all we have to work with. I don't believe people boast about science being on their side. Science doesn't choose sides. It simply finds what is true and what is false.



They do and you'll see it every time the debate comes up. Regardless, my point was that it's poor reasoning to make that argument. It hinges on emotion and even the presupposition that killing in the name of religion is evil. It's also for the same reasons I stated one cannot kill in the name of atheism that it's ridiculous to make the comparison. If there is a reason to kill someone, it's beliefs not lack of beliefs. I've never killed anyone due to my lack of belief in werewolves. There are however a great deal of well educated muslims who belief in jihad. It's only a logical extension of that belief that they kill in the name of it. You need to show that the core belief is wrong, not the consequences. It makes much more sense to show that a belief isn't true than to show it is evil. When you try to argue something is evil you've opened up a giant can of worms by then having to prove your morality. So to say religion is bad because many people have died in the name of it is probably fine for an atheist dinner party but to make that assertion in a stricter philosophical sense requires more evidence.


----------



## Arnold (May 20, 2011)

phosphor said:


> Prince, I know what you did last summer.




busted!


----------



## Arnold (May 20, 2011)

*DOMS* = a reborn Christian.


----------



## juggernaut (May 20, 2011)

Someone tip that motherfucking crippled douchebag over in his chair. 
 whoops...sorry Stephen Buzzkill.


----------



## LAM (May 20, 2011)

BillHicksFan said:


> Look at your jail statistics. The amount of atheists in U.S. prisons compared to the atheists on your streets. I'll have a search and see if I can find them. The results are interesting.
> History proves that good people will murder in the name of their God and are only too keen to do so. In the bible it was Abraham who took a knife to his own son's throat in order to prove his love to God. If that were me, I would have told God to go fuck himself.



* this is what I found from most articles talking about this subject.  the data was collected in 1997.

The Federal Bureau of Prisons does have statistics on religious affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of inmates per religion category: 

Response Number % 
Catholic 29267 39.164% 
Protestant 26162 35.008%
Muslim 5435 7.273% 
American Indian 2408 3.222% 
Nation 1734 2.320% 
Rasta 1485 1.987% 
Jewish 1325 1.773% 
Church of Christ 1303 1.744% 
Pentecostal 1093 1.463% 
Moorish 1066 1.426% 
Buddhist 882 1.180% 
Jehovah Witness 665 0.890% 
Adventist 621 0.831% 
Orthodox 375 0.502% 
Mormon 298 0.399% 
Scientology 190 0.254% 
Atheist 156 0.209% 
Hindu 119 0.159% 
Santeria 117 0.157% 
Sikh 14 0.019% 
Bahai 9 0.012% 
Krishna 7 0.009% ---------------------------- -------- 
Total Known Responses 74731 100.001% (rounding to 3 digits does this)

Unknown/No Answer 18381 ---------------------------- Total Convicted 93112 80.259% (74731) prisoners' religion is known.

Held in Custody 3856 (not surveyed due to temporary custody) ---------------------------- Total In Prisons 96968


----------



## bandaidwoman (May 20, 2011)

not a single quaker, yeah quakers, surprised to see bahai ( though small) , they are like the quakers in their creed.


----------



## phosphor (May 20, 2011)

Jesus christ LAM, where do you get all this info? Oh.. I see now. 






Why do you have a pic of a dude on your desk? To each their own I guess.

Good info you posted.


----------



## phosphor (May 20, 2011)

LAM said:


> * this is what I found from most articles talking about this subject. the data was collected in 1997.


 
I think allot of this has to do with people saying they are religious but not following the book - obviously. In my case, I was 'told' I was Catholic, but never went to church or followed anything in particular. I just try to be a good person. Years back, if I was incarcerated, I would have said I was catholic - don't know why, I guess it was because I was told I was. 

Parents bring their children up in church every sunday into their teens, but many turn sour and get into trouble - they were brought up a certain denomination or religion, but they strayed. If asked, what religion they are, ofcourse they will say whatever they were brought up with. Most people are not incarcerated of a crime they commited from religious motivations, so the numbers don't mean a whole lot of anything imo. Still, interesting to see those numbers - I would have thought athiesm would have been on the rise.


----------



## KelJu (May 20, 2011)

phosphor said:


> I think allot of this has to do with people saying they are religious but not following the book - obviously. In my case, I was 'told' I was Catholic, but never went to church or followed anything in particular. I just try to be a good person. Years back, if I was incarcerated, I would have said I was catholic - don't know why, I guess it was because I was told I was.
> 
> Parents bring their children up in church every sunday into their teens, but many turn sour and get into trouble - they were brought up a certain denomination or religion, but they strayed. If asked, what religion they are, ofcourse they will say whatever they were brought up with. Most people are not incarcerated of a crime they commited from religious motivations, so the numbers don't mean a whole lot of anything imo. Still, interesting to see those numbers - I would have thought athiesm would have been on the rise.





Because atheism offers no hope.


----------



## LAM (May 20, 2011)

phosphor said:


> I would have thought athiesm would have been on the rise.



I remember reading stuff years ago that stated Christianity is on the decline globally which only makes sense, it has been the natural cycle of religion since man has walked the earth.  they all come and go over time.  I don't have a link to the text but I'm pretty sure recent polls in the US show people moving from believing in the Judeo-Christian "God" to simply a higher power.

I was raised Protestant, after confirmation I got my DL and my parents gave me the choice to continue to go to church or not, I choose going to Time Out (arcade) at the mall on Sunday..


----------



## ROID (May 20, 2011)

bandaidwoman said:


> If those light waves are the last convulsive electromagnetic emmission of our memories, as a physicist he should know that special relativity says that time will dilate to infinity when something reaches the speed of light.  There may be no heaven but special relativity and quantum  mechanics does allow for an afterlife consisting of our memories captured in photons of light in an infinite loop.  *Thus, people like me with great lives , it will be heaven, the poor blokes trapped in child slavery etc. what a miserable existance, and makes human suffering much more intolerable*.



lol

You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. You have just bastardized modern physics so much that is almost making me angry. I only have a 4yr in physics but I can promise you special relativity and quantum do NOT say anything like that.

You are a very convincing person. You remind me of people that seem very intelligent but when it comes to reality they are a danger to be around in any lab settings.


----------



## ROID (May 20, 2011)

All you guys need to worship me. I am a kind GOD. I'm not dualistic.


----------



## SFW (May 20, 2011)

LAM said:


> * this is what I found from most articles talking about this subject. the data was collected in 1997.
> 
> The Federal Bureau of Prisons does have statistics on religious affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of inmates per religion category:
> 
> ...


 

There is no way to tell who is devote or sincere in their beliefs. You might subscribe to a faith but still be a total heathen. A catholic pedophile priest for example.

Then you have the atheist scientist who inevitably benefits mankind because of his research. 

Subscribing to a faith means nothing and doesnt speak to what is trully in the heart of the individual.


----------



## bandaidwoman (May 20, 2011)

ROID said:


> lol
> 
> You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. You have just bastardized modern physics so much that is almost making me angry. I only have a 4yr in physics but I can promise you special relativity and quantum do NOT say anything like that.
> 
> You are a very convincing person. You remind me of people that seem very intelligent but when it comes to reality they are a danger to be around in any lab settings.



 you physicists are much smarter than us lab jockey analytical chemists ( that is my degree) , perhaps i am bastardizing special relativity but why dont you correct me? I have no ego, but  i remember being taught as you approach the speed of light time dilation approaches infinity, in fact if you are the light, there is no time.   if our last dying memories are traveling at the speed of light in the form of light waves........?.  no one has ever approached this subject, except a neurophysiologist at EMory who talked about these convulsions of light waves seen at death he talks about the neurophoton conscious theory, something I notice these neurophysiologists like to play around with.


----------



## ROID (May 20, 2011)

bandaidwoman said:


> your right,  you physicists are much smarter than us lab jockey chemists , perhaps i am bastardizing special relativity but why dont you correct me?  i remember being taught as you approach the speed of light time dilation approaches infinity, if our last dying memories are traveling at the speed of light in the form of light waves........?.  no one has ever approached this subject, except a neurophysiologist at EMory who talked about these convulsions of light waves seen at death.



you are the genius. not me.

its mainly your last statement that bothered me.

It's not about being smarter. It's about having an understanding of what is actually happening. 

Your right, if I wanna argue then I have to say otherwise. I will try but I don't understand much when it comes to metaphysics and  you are very elegant with words. Even if I could say 100% that you are wrong you could convince people otherwise.

You can't really understand quantum until you know the "why" behind it. Trying to claim a fact about something from theory doesn't work. Way more to it than that.

anyway, Einstein didn't come up with relativity   I always thought that was a cool fact.


----------



## bandaidwoman (May 20, 2011)

ROID said:


> you are the genius. not me.
> 
> its mainly your last statement that bothered me.
> 
> ...



Honestly,  I had quantum chemistry shoved down my throat, hours and hours of multivariable calculus equations that made no sense literally, only mathmatically. and I don't ever pretend to understand quantum physics completely , even my brother , the princetonian physicist says he can never understand it. ( and he is way way smarter than me).  However, I sense your frustation because I hate it when people bastardize the second law of thermodynamics...


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (May 20, 2011)

Lao Tzu ( ~4500 BC)
on morality:


When the great Way is forgotten,
the doctrines of humanity and morality arise.
When knowledge and cleverness appear,
there emerges great hypocrisy.
When family relationships are not in harmony,
filial piety and parental love are advocated.
When a country falls into chaos and disorder,
there is praise of loyal patriots.


Abandon wisdom and discard cleverness,
and people will benefit a hundredfold.
Abandon humanity and discard morality,
and people will rediscover love and duty.
Abandon skill and discard profit,
and there will be no thieves or robbers.
These three things relate to externals and are inadequate.


when the Way is lost, power arises.
When power is lost, humanity arises.
When humanity is lost, morality arises.
When morality is lost, custom arises.
Now custom is a superficial expression
of loyalty and faithfulness, and the beginning of disorder.

Foreknowledge is the flowering of the Way
and the beginning of folly.
Therefore the mature dwell in the depth, not in the thin,
in the fruit and not in the flowering.


----------



## ROID (May 20, 2011)

bandaidwoman said:


> Honestly,  I had quantum chemistry shoved down my throat, hours and hours of multivariable calculus equations that made no sense literally, only mathmatically. and I don't ever pretend to understand quantum physics completely , even my brother , the princetonian physicist says he can never understand it. ( and he is way way smarter than me).  However, I sense your frustation because I hate it when people bastardize the second law of thermodynamics...



the conversations you and I could have. We should start our own thread and just talk about "life" 

Calculus is something practiced unless you're a true genius. 

I wanted so bad to be either a theoretical physicist or an astrophysicist. Theoretical didn't work because I don't like writing computer programs all day and when I tried to be mentored under an astrophysicist he turned out to be a drunk that done the same research over and over. Experimental is where I'm at now, @ 28  Either way, I don't think I have the intelligence to do either.

Being smart is relative, relative to the observer


----------



## bandaidwoman (May 20, 2011)

ROID said:


> the conversations you and I could have. We should start our own thread and just talk about "life"
> 
> Calculus is something practiced unless you're a true genius.
> 
> *I wanted so bad to be either a theoretical physicist or an astrophysicist*.



Your not missing out, my brother said half of the theoretical physicists at princeton either were insane or were going to go insane. My brother himself is bipolar.....so there you are.   The nice thing about chemistry is that you can get real nuts and bolts without ever having to sequay back into theoretical realm, spectographs, osmolar concentrations, those are just nice and solid and practical.  Honestly, I was too dumb to ever be a good chemist that could be innovative like my hero the  woman chemist who invented kevalr,Stephanie Kwolek, she was so smart she opted out of medical school and went straight to research chemistry .  Medicine is very much nuts and bolts, which is probably why "real" scientists make fun of us.


----------



## ROID (May 20, 2011)

bandaidwoman said:


> Your not missing out, my brother said half of the theoretical physicists at princeton either were insane or were going to go insane. My brother himself is bipolar.....so there you are.   The nice thing about chemistry is that you can get real nuts and bolts without ever having to sequay back into theoretical realm, spectographs, osmolar concentrations, those are just nice and solid and practical.  Honestly, I was too dumb to ever be a good chemist that could be innovative like my hero the  woman chemist who invented kevalr,Stephanie Kwolek, she was so smart she opted out of medical school and went straight to research chemistry .  Medicine is very much nuts and bolts, which is probably why "real" scientists make fun of us.



Hell, I'm a manic depressant that see's a psychiatrist. 

What makes me laugh sometimes is that people think you have to so intelligent to be a doctor, chemist, physicist, etc....  You have to be willing to be bored for years on end. I can understand being bi-polar or depressed because that describes me perfectly, hence the testosterone supplements 

I'm sure no one believes anything I say on the board, little do they know.


----------



## ROID (May 20, 2011)

My belief is that we all draw from a universal consciousness. We all have the ability to do anything.


----------



## Zaphod (May 20, 2011)

ROID said:


> My belief is that we all draw from a universal consciousness. We all have the ability to do anything.



The only limit is our brain.  All that untapped potential.


----------



## LAM (May 20, 2011)

ROID said:


> What makes me laugh sometimes is that people think you have to so intelligent to be a doctor, chemist, physicist, etc....



you surely have to be smarter than the norm but definitely not Einstein, that's why they all have specialty's or are gen practice.   

personally I think there is something a little "off" about surgeons. being in combat i've seen just about everything inside of a person on the outside and non of it smells good or looks pretty, fucking gross...but then again people think my gf is weird for being a mortician.


----------



## ROID (May 20, 2011)

fuck, i just typed three paragraphs and deleted it.

I'm too messed up to remember what I typed.


----------



## bandaidwoman (May 20, 2011)

LAM said:


> you surely have to be smarter than the norm but definitely not Einstein, that's why they all have specialty's or are gen practice.
> 
> personally I think there is something a little "off" about surgeons. being in combat i've seen just about everything inside of a person on the outside and non of it smells good or looks pretty, fucking gross...but then again people think my gf is weird for being a mortician.



no , i keep telling people docs are not the smartest but we do have to be able to function at a very high level with constant sleep deprivation, I still have to run through my head acid base equations quickly when someone is gasping with a mixed acid base acidosis and I have to figure out his or her overdose of choice at 4 in the afternoon after 36 hours of sleep deprivation.  Surgeons do this almost constantly and it changes them from human to non human.  *We are masters at multitasking which, honestly, geniuses are not*, I have to analyze my gel electrophoresis for my research with LADA and run to the ICU for a stat consult from a surgeon whose patient is having seizures ( most can't deal with them) while looking at the last 35 set of critical labs that came through on the computer.  That is why they look,not for the einstein genius who figures out a theory of everything,but someone who accomplished a lot of things well yet not really a master of one....


----------



## bandaidwoman (May 20, 2011)

ROID said:


> Hell, I'm a manic depressant that see's a psychiatrist.
> 
> What makes me laugh sometimes is that people think you have to so intelligent to be a doctor, chemist, physicist, etc....  You have to be willing to be bored for years on end. I can understand being bi-polar or depressed because that describes me perfectly, hence the testosterone supplements
> 
> I'm sure no one believes anything I say on the board, little do they know.



Most bipolars I know are friggin brilliant.   Many may not be educated due to circumstances of their disease, but all are brilliant.  Those of us cursed with average IQs , seem to escape this for the most part.


----------



## BillHicksFan (May 20, 2011)

SFW said:


> There is no way to tell who is devote or sincere in their beliefs. You might subscribe to a faith but still be a total heathen. A catholic pedophile priest for example.
> 
> Then you have the atheist scientist who inevitably benefits mankind because of his research.
> 
> Subscribing to a faith means nothing and doesnt speak to what is trully in the heart of the individual.



The fact that atheism is not a belief should be enough, there is no degree of non belief. I believe that if being christened was enough to make you appear religious in those stats, the atheist group would have been much higher.

If Stalin and Pot can be labeled atheist then those jail stats can be used as an accurate indicator for the religiosity of inmates. The religious can't have it both ways.

Pedophile priests are not usually atheists. Its living an unatural life of abstinence and guilt which leaves them wanting to jump the only peice of ass that they come across. The'd simply pray for forgiveness afterward and continue as they were.


----------



## LAM (May 20, 2011)

bandaidwoman said:


> I had quantum chemistry shoved down my throat, hours and hours of multivariable calculus equations that made no sense literally, only mathmatically.



don't feel bad it's not just you.  the first time I took quantum mechanics I spent all my time trying to figure out the "why" instead of just doing the math. I dropped it and had to re-take it the next semester.  the funny thing is I didn't learn my lesson as I did the exact same thing when I took multivariable calc in undergrad years before.


----------



## BillHicksFan (May 20, 2011)

KelJu said:


> Because atheism offers no hope.




Would you really want to remain conscious for the rest of eternity? I believe that is a more frightening prospect than death itself. 

You're right though. If Jesus had have presented people with a set of beliefs only to claim that after you died there was nothing at all to look forward to I highly doubt Christianity would have taken off among the majority.


----------



## LAM (May 20, 2011)

BillHicksFan said:


> Would you really want to remain conscious for the rest of eternity? I believe that is a more frightening prospect than death itself.



no doubt, talk about being bored...lol

one's concept of "heaven" is also very subjective.  the heaven of the pedophile that never carried out on those cravings and made it would differ greatly than that of the evangelical christian, etc.  one's persons heaven would be the equivalent to another's hell...


----------



## Curt James (May 20, 2011)

Prince said:


> that is like me saying *Unicorns exist*, and you cannot prove they don't.


----------



## juggernaut (May 21, 2011)

Maybe I'm losing my mind, but why is it so awful or taboo to believe in a heaven, a single deity named God or anything deemed religious these days? I don't believe in a lot of what the bible says, but I do believe in God, and his son, a heaven and a hell; and yet I don't call myself Catholic.


----------



## niki (May 21, 2011)

The spirituality that spawned major religions was killed when they made them into major religions. Anything that makes your world smaller, ain't what it's about. I have no problems with either atheists or christians, for the most part.

The way I see it, the spiritual principles were so amazing, that they tried to put them in a box, out of the very best of intentions.....but these things cannot be marketed to the masses and instead - religion results. Which is merely a caricature of the original concept.

As far as heaven goes - I'm too busy working on life to worry about that. I've got plenty of heaven and hell right where I'm at.


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## Chubby (May 21, 2011)

phosphor said:


> Prince, I know what you did last summer.


 Looks like something is biting his ass.


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## withoutrulers (May 21, 2011)

Spending an entire life time hoping an egocentric God-king will grant you entry into HIS idea of heaven is an enormous waste of energy. Die, then go join the legion of angels created for the sole purpose of singing your lords praises. Join in the singing, and die again, inside from the boredom. But keep this bit to your self cause this oblivion is saving you from the other oblivion. catch 22 
Perfect God has no need
God creating all suggests a need:

imperfect god
Needy imperfect God creates slaves
Piety= uncle tom
Go forth and serve your owner.


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## Saney (May 21, 2011)

I wonder why this thread was moved into the anything goes section?

Anyway, I read all six pages. And some of the people here posting sound like complete fools.


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## withoutrulers (May 21, 2011)

withoutrulers said:


> Spending an entire life time hoping an egocentric God-king will grant you entry into HIS idea of heaven is an enormous waste of energy. Die, then go join the legion of angels created for the sole purpose of singing your lords praises. Join in the singing, and die again, inside from the boredom. But keep this bit to your self cause this oblivion is saving you from the other oblivion. catch 22
> Perfect God has no need
> God creating all suggests a need:
> 
> ...


^This


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## withoutrulers (May 21, 2011)

withoutrulers said:


> ^This


This^


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## withoutrulers (May 21, 2011)

withoutrulers said:


> This^


Stop copying me


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## withoutrulers (May 21, 2011)

withoutrulers said:


> Stop copying me


shut up


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## withoutrulers (May 21, 2011)

withoutrulers said:


> shut up


YOU shut up


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## niki (May 21, 2011)

Lol!


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## withoutrulers (May 21, 2011)

withoutrulers said:


> YOU shut up


AAAND scene. Thank you thank you. This was a portion of my play "God's three heads can't get along". It's a representation of the completely asinine assertion that God the Father, the son, and the Holy spirit are all the same being.


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## Arnold (May 21, 2011)

this 12 year old will try and explain it:






YouTube Video


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## Saney (May 21, 2011)

Smart kid. He understood Einsteins theory at age 12... I learned that women didn't have penises at age 14


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## Leave (May 21, 2011)

It doesn't take much to be labeled a "genius" these days I see.


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## Chubby (May 21, 2011)




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## Leave (May 21, 2011)

chobby192 said:


> I think end will come either from our own greed or another big bang. If it is former then it will take a long time. If is later then we never know when it is going to happen. I do believe that it will end but I just don't know how or when it will end.


 

^ Be nice if I could have sex with you before it all ends. ^


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## Chubby (May 21, 2011)




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## withoutrulers (May 21, 2011)

You're not allowed to have sex in heaven. God changed the rule after one too many angel orgies ended up as a god on bottom gay fest. It's true, just read the bible


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## Leave (May 21, 2011)

"Read the bible" he says > HA HA HA HA HA < Good one.


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## Saney (May 21, 2011)

No where In the Bible have I read that Gears were bad.. So I say, "Let there be the Jerked & Tan"


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## withoutrulers (May 21, 2011)

It's in the book of JD&T: Vanquish thine blubbedness with copious gears and sfw. Do not alloweth notbig status to fill thine heart. Coucheth not thine ass, for that is the road to blubbeddumb.


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## Saney (May 21, 2011)

I likey^


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## withoutrulers (May 21, 2011)

Yeah you like it alright, right in the ear hole


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## Saney (May 21, 2011)

Honestly, I'm sure taking it up the ass has more pleasure than getting my ear penetrated


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## withoutrulers (May 21, 2011)

Anal has lost it's novelty, I've moved on to tighter fits.


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## Aries1 (May 21, 2011)

withoutrulers said:


> Anal has lost it's novelty, I've moved on to tighter fits.


The war cry of the "less-than-well" endowed.


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## DOMS (May 21, 2011)

withoutrulers said:


> Anal has lost it's novelty, I've moved on to tighter fits.



Pedophilia, it's not just for breakfast anymore!


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## Curt James (May 21, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> Maybe I'm losing my mind, but why is it so awful or taboo to believe in a heaven, a single deity named God or anything deemed religious these days? I don't believe in a lot of what the bible says, but *I do believe in God, and his son, a heaven and a hell*; and yet I don't call myself Catholic.



I try to respect all people if they respect others. A quick Google offered this quote:

"Every religion emphasizes human improvement, love, respect for others, sharing other people's suffering. On these lines every religion has more or less the same viewpoint and the same goal."
???Dalai Lama


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## Curt James (May 21, 2011)

Das Sloot said:


> *I wonder why this thread was moved into the anything goes section?*
> 
> Anyway, I read all six pages. And some of the people here posting sound like complete fools.



I moved it. 



murf23 said:


> KelJu anotha tuff guy huh...pass on thru and we see how tuff u talk in person
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If I made an error moving the thread then please voice your opinion in a pm to me ASAP.



Or _whenever you feel like it. _

largepkg sums up my sentiment pretty much spot-on or 100%.

The dispute over religion just doesn't lend itself to reasonable and calm discussion, imo. "Anything Goes" seems like the place for a heated exchange.


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## Curt James (May 21, 2011)

withoutrulers said:


> You're not allowed to have sex in heaven. God changed the rule after one too many angel orgies ended up as a god on bottom gay fest. It's true, just read the bible



I was engaged to a girl who told me that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that if you're married in one of their temples that you're joined in Heaven after you die for all eternity. 

If I'm not mistaken she also said that smoking cigarettes and drinking ice tea were both forbidden activities for Jehovah's. 

When I was a kid a bus would drive through the neighborhood and pick kids up to attend the local Church of the Nazarene. Remember someone telling us that playing cards and going to the movies was also forbidden by their church. 

Dated a Catholic woman, attended mass with her, but wasn't allowed to join in the Catholic-specific activities. 

And though I'm baptized, I currently only attend the Church of the Smiley.


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## phosphor (May 21, 2011)

I thought the discussion was about Hawkings comments on religion? Ahh well, it's still good regardless. I waste hours reading this shit while at 'work' - it passes the time on slow days.


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## Curt James (May 21, 2011)

phosphor said:


> *I thought the discussion was about Hawkings  comments on religion? *Ahh well, it's still good regardless. I waste  hours reading this shit while at 'work' - it passes the time on slow  days.



It _is_, but any debate between religion and atheism seems to move from the topic to _"I will keel you!"_ in no time flat.


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## Leave (May 21, 2011)

Says alot about the kind of religious fruitcakes that roam around here.


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## ROID (May 21, 2011)

bandaidwoman said:


> Most bipolars I know are friggin brilliant.   Many may not be educated due to circumstances of their disease, but all are brilliant.  Those of us cursed with average IQs , seem to escape this for the most part.



I'm very average but in my day dreams I am a genius that is going to change the world.


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## SFW (May 21, 2011)

Truth = You're all insignificant and will not be remembered after you die.

None of you are interesting.

If hell does exist, ill fucking see you all there.


GICH!!


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## Arnold (May 21, 2011)

ROID said:


> I'm very average but in my day dreams I am a genius that is going to change the world.



Winning!


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## LAM (May 24, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> Maybe I'm losing my mind, but why is it so awful or taboo to believe in a heaven, a single deity named God or anything deemed religious these days? I don't believe in a lot of what the bible says, but I do believe in God, and his son, a heaven and a hell; and yet I don't call myself Catholic.



I find nothing wrong in believing in a higher power, etc. just not making real world decisions based on such. women also seem to get the short end, that sounds more like the works of a man than a god.  the main thing I have against religion is it is forced upon you, Blue Laws are a perfect example.


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## BillHicksFan (May 24, 2011)

It should be illegal to force feed religious beliefs down the throats of children at an age when they are yet to aquired even the most basic reasoning skills. IMO a good time to teach children any religious doctrine would be after you've let them know Santa Claus doesn't really exist.

If you have full confidence that your religion is true then you should feel confident enough in _presenting _your belief system to your child at an age when they can understand the core beliefs of what they are being taught and allow them they to make up their own mind as to whether they are willing to accept that particular religion, choose another, create their own or choose to keep an open mind.

Im constantly at war with myself as I really don't enjoy stealing people's comfort blanket however when I think of these people indoctinating their children into a set of beliefs which are fueled by guilt, shame, sickness and fear it really gets under my skin. 
Injecting the fear of Hell into a child's fragile mind is nothing short of child abuse. 

Seriously though, which method is more ethical? We wouldnt feel right to label a child as a republican, liberal or a conservative because we realise its a decision that only the child can make therefore why should religion get a free pass in hijacking childrens beliefs before they are old enough to make up their own mind?

I realise this thread is about heaven however the amount of genuine respect it receives as a possible reality amazes me. If you believe in Heaven then deep down inside you must believe in Hell. Its sugar coated with a poison center everytime.

I gotta put a lid on these religious rants.  I dont mean to be an asshole.


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## Hench (May 24, 2011)

^^^Coming from someone who had religion forced upon them from a VERY young age, BH speaks the truth!!!

Great post.


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