# First course advise on AAS and HGH



## Big Ed (Dec 29, 2009)

I am 38 years old, 5 feet 8 and 190 lbs. I have all aspects of my training and diet sorted and am about to start my first course and I need your opinions please.

I am planning to take 2 sustanon 250 and 1 deca durabolin per week for 12 weeks in conjunction with Norditropin Simplex 15mg 1.5ml HGH.

I have my PCT treatment in the form of clomid 20mg per day and HGC1500 every third day for 4 weeks. I am also taking Roaccutane as I am prone to serious acne.

My main concern is the HGH as I have researched as much as I can and seem to have come accross just about every conflicting opinion possible. I know a guy who is around 50 years old who claims to be a conniseur of HGH who is a first team rugby player. He says that Norditropin is such better quality than the chinese jintropin I used to strip fat that I only need 0.4 ius per day and any more is a waste as my body can only use that amount. The norditropin cost £640 for two 45iu cartridges so that means I could use 1 iu per day max for my course of AAS and then switch to the hugely cheaper Jintropin for the duration of time between my first and second course of AAS. This guy has the body of someone aged 30 so is he right?

Furthermore, as 1 iu is such a piddling amount of fluid can and should I mix it with reverse osmotic water or bacteriostic water to assist in injection? I am concerned that some fluid might remain in the hyperdermic after injection meaning I end up with less in my system than I want.

Best of all would be if anyone knew where I might get my hands on a Nordipen the put the cartridges into without a prescription as I have searched everywhere and everyone I email does not reply.

Finally, I am new to this site today and am unfamiliar with the etiquette of posting threads and possible taboo questions or wording so any pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you


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## VictorZ06 (Dec 29, 2009)

That's over $1000 for 90iu.  Completely insane.  

Norditropin and Jintropin are the same, Somatropin.  If they both have a sequence of 191aa, they will work the same.  

It all depends on how they are handled...especially in the mail.  Having a kit come from China and having it bounce all over the place constantly changing temps will cause the HGH to become less potent.  With the exception of Serostim...that becomes active once it's mixed and doesn't need to be kept in the fridge (until mixed).

/V


Lastly, you will be better off with test enan or cyp...sust is a poor choice for several reasons.


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## heavyiron (Dec 29, 2009)

*Testosterone cycle design*​

Almost weekly someone posts on the Chemical Enhancement forum asking about first cycle advice. The most common questions are; “what steroid should I take?” “How long should I take it?” and “What will the effects be?” There are literally dozens of steroids available and that makes it difficult for a first time user to choose. The following information will attempt to provide enough information for a first time user to make an educated decision about anabolic androgenic steroid use.
Testosterone is one of the most effective, safe and available steroids today, therefore I believe Testosterone is the best first cycle choice. The following text outlines the benefits and risks of Testosterone administration based on a clinical human trial of 61 healthy men in 2001. The purpose of the trial was to determine the dose dependency of testosterone’s effects on fat-free mass and muscle performance. In this trial 61 men, 18-35years old were randomized into 5 groups receiving weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, 600 mg of Testosterone Enanthate for 20 weeks. They had previous weight-lifting experience and normal T levels. Their nutritional intake was standardized and they did not undertake any strength training during the trial. The only two groups that reported significant muscle building benefits were the 300 and 600 mg groups so any dose lower than 300mg will not be considered in this essay. 12 men participated in the 300 mg group and 13 men in the 600 mg group.
600mg of Testosterone a week for 20 weeks resulted in the following benefits. Increased fat free mass, muscle strength, muscle power, muscle volume, hemoglobin and IGF-1.
The same 600 mg administration resulted in 2 side effects. HDL cholesterol was negatively correlated and 2 men developed acne.
The normal range for total T in men is 241-827 ng/dl according to Labcorp and 260-1000 ng/dl according to Quest Laboratories. The normal range for IGF-1 is 81-225 according to Labcorp. Total T and IGF-1 levels were taken after 16 weeks and resulted in the following;

*Total Testosterone*
300 mg group-1,345 ng/dl a *691* ng increase from baseline
600 mg group-2,370 ng/dl a *1,737* ng increase from baseline
*IGF-1 *
300 mg group-388 ng/dl a *74* ng increase from baseline
600 mg group-304 ng/dl a *77* ng increase from baseline

Body composition was measured after 20 weeks.

*Fat Free Mass by underwater weighing*
300 mg group-*5.2kg (11.4lbs)* increase
600 mg group-*7.9kg (17.38lbs)* increase
*Fat Mass by underwater weighing*
300 mg group*-.5kg (1.1lbs)* decrease
600 mg group-*1.1kg (2.42lbs)* decrease
*Thigh Muscle Volume*
300 mg group-*84* cubic centimeter increase
600 mg group-*126* cubic centimeter increase
*Quadriceps Muscle Volume*
300 mg group-*43* cubic centimeter increase
600 mg group-*68* cubic centimeter increase
*Leg Press Strength*
300 mg group-*72.2kg (158.8lbs)* increase 
600 mg group-*76.5kg (168.3lbs)* increase
*Leg Power*
300 mg group-*38.6* watt increase
600 mg group-*48.1* watt increase
*Hemoglobin*
300 mg group-*6.1* gram per liter increase
600 mg group-*14.2* gram per liter increase
*Plasma HDL Cholesterol*
300 mg group-*5.7* mg/dl decrease
600 mg group-*8.4* mg/dl decrease
*Acne*
300 mg group-7 of the 12 men developed acne
600 mg group-2 of the 13 men developed acne

There were no significant changes in PSA or liver enzymes at any dose up to 600mg. However, long-term effects of androgen administration on the prostate, cardiovascular risk, and behavior are unknown. The study demonstrated that there is a dose dependant relationship with testosterone administration. In other words the more testosterone administered the greater the muscle building effects and potential for side effects.

Given the results of the study and based on years of personal experience I believe the first time user can safely use between 300-600 mg of testosterone enanthate or cypionate per week for 8-12 weeks. Because it is desirable to have even blood androgen levels I advise at least 2 equal injections per week. The following graph demonstrates that testosterone cypionate peaks within 1-2 days after injection and falls off to almost baseline by day 10. Therefore waiting 7 days between injections of cypionate would cause wide fluctuations in blood androgen levels.

*Pharmacokinetics of Testosterone cypionate Injection*






Figure. Pharmacokinetics of 200mg Testosterone cypionate injection. Source: Comparison of Testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of Testosterone enanthate or Testosterone cypionate. Schulte-Beerbuhl M, Nieschlag E. Fertility and Sterility 33 (1980) 201-3.

If a first time user wanted to use 600 mg of cypionate or enanthate per week he would inject 300 mg on Tuesday and another 300 mg on Saturday each week for 10 weeks. When injecting long heavy esters like cypionate with this frequency I tend to have less acne then 1 injection per week.
There are a number of esters which provide varying release times. Acetate or propionate esters extend the release time of testosterone a couple of days. In contrast, a deconate ester prolongs the release of testosterone about 3 weeks. Testosterone enanthate and cypionate are almost identical esters. The use of an ester allows for a less frequent injection schedule than using a water based testosterone like suspension which has no ester at all and is rapidly in and out of your system after injection. The published release times are not exact and are many times based on a single injection not many multiple injections which can delay the release of the hormone. Other factors affect release times of esters such as scar tissue and the muscle group injected. Only a blood test can confirm when the active hormone has cleared your system.
Esters not only effect release times but also the potency of the Testosterone as esters make up part of the steroid weight. This must be taken into account when calculating dosages. The longer the release time the less free hormone. For example propionate is about 15% more potent mg. for mg. then enanthate so 500mg of propionate would equal about 575 mg. of enanthate. The following chart illustrates the free base equivalents for several compounds.




Although it was not indicated in the trial, during or after the steroid cycle some men are prone to gynecomastia which is the formation of female like breast tissue. This is due to excessive estrogen as the body tries to balance out the sex hormones. A selective estrogen receptor modulator or S.E.R.M. such as Tamoxifen can be used effectively to combat gynecamastia in an emergency as it competes for the estrogen receptor which in turn inhibits estrogens effects. It is highly recommended that a S.E.R.M. be available during treatment of Testosterone. 10-40mg daily is an effective dose however dosage is dependant on how much testosterone is administered as well as the individual himself.
The decision to use steroids should not be taken lightly and should be the last consideration after implementing a solid nutritional, training and recovery plan. It is advised to get blood work when using these medications.

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men;
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/281/6/E1172



*Ancillaries during the cycle*



*Aromatase Inhibitor*​

I briefly wrote about using Tamoxifen above for emergency gynecomastia treatment however I am convinced that there is a better strategy for controlling estrogen during a steroid cycle. Rather than waiting for the side effects of estrogen to present an aromatase inhibitor like Arimidex or Aromasin should be used on cycle to control Estrogen and keep free testosterone levels high. 0.5mg-1mg Arimidex daily OR 10-25mg Aromasin daily. Start with the lower dose and then see how that controls water retention, blood pressure and libido and make adjustments as needed. A blood test would be the most ideal way to determine the dosage of the AI. Free T needs to be in the high range and estradiol between 10-25 pg/ml.


*Human Chorionic Gonadotropin*​

Testosterone-Induced gonadotropin suppression tends to cause atrophy of the testes and decreases intratesticular testosterone. In other words, when a male administers testosterone his testes shrink because they are suppressed. A simple way to restore ITT levels and maintain the mass of the testes is to administer HCG during testosterone treatment. During a study it was determined that HCG is dose dependant and that approximately 300iu HCG taken every other day restored ITT levels. This is 1,050iu HCG weekly. I recommend 500iu twice weekly while on testosterone treatment. On a very heavy cycle a third dose of 500iu could be added but that is typically not needed. HCG will not only keep ITT levels and the mass of the testes normal but will also aid in keeping the male fertile. 


*Sample cycle with ancillaries*​

*Sunday 10mg Aromasin*
*Monday 10mg Aromasin/500iu HCG*
*Tuesday 10mg Aromasin/300mg Enanthate*
*Wednesday 10mg Aromasin*
*Thursday 10mg Aromasin*
*Friday 10mg Aromasin/500iu HCG*
*Saturday 10mg Aromasin/300mg Enanthate*


For all you guys who want to add multiple compounds to your first course I advise against it because if you have side effects then you will not know which compound is causing the sides. I have gotton a ton of PM's over the years and there is always some reason that I am given for using multiple compounds on the first run but there really is no need. However my cycle sample above may not be for everyone so I am offering an alternative to the flat cycle design. If you want to run a first cycle with a little more horespower than you may want to consider a modified pyramiding cycle. I have done over 20 pyramid courses and must say they are my favorite way to run aas. The human body is always fighting for homeostasis so the concept is to increase dose before gains plateau. Based on the 2009 myostatin study we can design a cycle that is effective for 10 weeks using this strategy. The following first cycle is for men that want a little more performance with added risk while only using Testosterone. The first 5 weeks a standard dose is administered to evaluate how your body responds and to determine if sides are manageable. If sides are manageable then increase the dose.​
*Sample first course #2*​
*Week 1-5 600mg Testosterone weekly*
*Week 6-8 800mg Testosterone weekly*
*Week 9-10 1 gram Testosterone weekly*

*10 mg Aromasin daily with the goal of keeping Estradiol between 10pg/ml-25pg/ml. Only blood work can confirm if you are in this range.*

*500iu HCG twice weekly.*​

*Post Cycle therapy*​

I strongly believe that an AI should be used as long as there is an aromatizing compound being administered. In this case Testosterone and HCG aromatize therefore using an AI until these meds clear and a few weeks longer is what I am recommending. There is some evidence that adding Nolva to an AI does not increase the effectiveness of estro control therefore Nolva has no real advantage alongside an AI unless one is experiencing gyno. Additionally Nolva has been shown to reduce IGF-1 and GH levels. This is not a big deal on cycle as testosterone increases IGF-1 in a dose dependant relationship. However off cycle this is a problem. PCT is a fragile time and lower IGF-1 and GH levels is not desirable. I am recommending an AI that is specific to men that can be used on cycle and during PCT. It is my conclusion that Aromasin is the obvious choice. 

I recommend the following PCT protocol for esters like Cypionate and Enanthate;

*Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day. (You may use less HCG if your testes are normal in size AND you have been using HCG on cycle, i.e. 1,000iu HCG eod.)*

*100/100/100/50 Clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3)*

*20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)*

*3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses*

*10g creatine daily *

The HCG is administered BEFORE the ester clears to increase the mass of the testes and bring back ITT levels. This will allow the testes to sustain output of testosterone sooner.

Clomid is universally accepted as THE testosterone recovery tool. It blocks estrogen from the HPTA and stimulates the production of GNRH then initiates the production of LH, which in turn signals the testis (if not atrophied) to produce testosterone.

Aromasin or a similar aromatase inhibitor is for testosterone recovery and it is used to keep the testosterone/estrogen balance in favor of testosterone. It is also helps to keep any additionally occurring estrogen from HCG low to none.

Cortisol is catabolic. It is the enemy of all anabolism and must be kept in check. While it is blocked when under the influence of AAS, it is free to attach to the Anabolic Receptors (AR) once the steroids leave. Due to this blockage Cortisol tends to accumulate and increase when on. A low level is desirable however since it is important for other vital functions such as control of inflammation. Balance is the key. Vitimin C keeps the exercise induced rise of Cortisol in check.

The use of Creatine has shown to increase ATP metabolism and cellular water storage among many other things. This is beneficial because it provides for heightened nutrient storage and a slight increase in anabolism as well as workout stamina.

*References*

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men;

Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males

Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

special thanks to those men and women who have influnced my thinking over the years in regards to aas use.

*Written by heavyiron *


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## GFR (Dec 29, 2009)

Big Ed said:


> I am 38 years old, 5 feet 8 and 190 lbs. I have all aspects of my training and diet sorted and am about to start my first course and I need your opinions please.
> 
> I am planning to take 2 sustanon 250 and 1 deca durabolin per week for 12 weeks in conjunction with Norditropin Simplex 15mg 1.5ml HGH.
> 
> ...


Considering you have only been working out for 12 weeks I would say this idea of GH and steroid use of yours is idiotic. 

If someone gave you the idea to use GH and steroids you need to realize that person is a moron and avoid all of their advice from now on.


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## WFC2010 (Dec 30, 2009)

you have best HGH in the wrold i think..but most expensive!
normal iu Europe pharmacy 45iu (15mg) norditropin cost 500???..fuck its expensive!


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## Big Ed (Dec 30, 2009)

*use of gear*



Patrick Bateman said:


> Considering you have only been working out for 12 weeks I would say this idea of GH and steroid use of yours is idiotic.
> 
> If someone gave you the idea to use GH and steroids you need to realize that person is a moron and avoid all of their advice from now on.



Its like this.

I want to be as big as I can and have the correct bodily proportions to achieve this according to the guys at the gym. Apparently I have the correct underlying genetics required to get huge and thats exactly what I intend to do using every means at my disposal.

I may have misled you somewhat regarding my previous experience. I have been training on/off for years but stopped completely for a while after the birth of my daughter but continued to eat like a horse so inevitebly got fat. I took 12 weeks to strip 48lbs of fat off and now have a 6 pack.

Considering all of the above I dont see the harm in wanting to get the best results in the best possible time. After all, I spend most of my spare time in the gym.


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## VictorZ06 (Dec 30, 2009)

Big Ed said:


> I am planning to take 2 sustanon 250 and 1 deca durabolin per week for 12 weeks



How much is your 1 deca?  I've seen 50mg/ml up to 400mg/ml.

/V


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## TrashMan (Dec 30, 2009)

You haven't trained long enough and your PCT sucks.


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## Big Ed (Dec 31, 2009)

*deca*



VictorZ06 said:


> How much is your 1 deca?  I've seen 50mg/ml up to 400mg/ml.
> 
> /V



The deca is 50 mg


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## VictorZ06 (Dec 31, 2009)

Big Ed said:


> The deca is 50 mg



So your plan is to take 50mg of deca a week?  Who told you to do that?  Cmon...that's not even enough to take if you wanted to use it just to lube your joints.  

All of your dosing and timing protocols are completely far off base (deca, HGH, clomid, etc.) .  You need to do a lot more research and stop listening to those who are giving you bad advice.

Lastly, you are better off running HCG _during_ your cycle instead of post.  This way you avoid testicular atrophy for the entire ride.  Take it 2X a week, about 300-500iu per shot.  

But, all this should come into play when you are ready to take AAS and I don't think right now is the correct time for you (a year in the gym is not enough time...your body can still grow a lot).  Go natty for at least another 6 months to a year, IMHO.  Good luck.

/V


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## SunAndSteel (Dec 31, 2009)

20 mgs a day of Clomid for PCT?

I run heavier PCT on pro-hormones. I don't think that's gonna cut it. Be tough to keep your gains without a proper PCT. 

You also didn't mention having any ancillaries on hand in case you start getting gyno...You're concerned about acne, but you're not worried about disfiguring female breast tissue?

Not pissing on you or telling you what to do, but your cycle looks like crap.


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## Big Ed (Jan 1, 2010)

SunAndSteel said:


> 20 mgs a day of Clomid for PCT?
> 
> I run heavier PCT on pro-hormones. I don't think that's gonna cut it. Be tough to keep your gains without a proper PCT.
> 
> ...




Ok Point taken.

I have been doing nothing but research since I came away for christmas to ski for two weeks and its done nothing but rain the entire time.

I cant see why I shouldnt consider a first course as I want to get the hell on with it. I am 38 and in decent shape with my diet and training nailed down but am growing so slowly its irritating.

I trusted the guy who detailed what I should take as he is huge and thats where I want to be. However, reading what everyone has to say I am now doubtful of his advice. Id like to add at this point that he has no financial gain from me as my closest friend would be my source as he works directly in the medical industry.

If I were to wait, how long would you suggest? Is there a given time to put your foot on the gas? I work an active job and that combined with training means I seemed to have stopped growing and my figure is trim and shapely, I live life like a monk for christs sake. All I do is work, train, sleep and eat like a horse.


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## NJ-Surfer (Jan 1, 2010)

Big Ed said:


> ...I am 38 and in decent shape with my diet and training nailed down..


Post your diet and workout routine. If your not growing I'm sure there is room for improvement. Perhaps you just need to add some periodization.



Big Ed said:


> ..but am growing so slowly its irritating....


Sounds like you need a dose of patience not deca. Bodybuilding is a sport and like any other sport you need to put in the time to get results, *patience* and persistence are key. Shortcuts are short term solutions only dedication and persistence lead to long term results.



Big Ed said:


> ...If I were to wait, how long would you suggest? Is there a given time to put your foot on the gas?


Where are you going so fast? Enjoy the ride and take in the scenery. Learn to love your God given ability to change your body. Once you truly understand how to drop fat and build muscle you will know if and when it's time for an AAS.


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## VictorZ06 (Jan 1, 2010)

Ignore your friend at the GYM.  I always end up in some debate in the locker room with one of those guys, usually trying to explain to them what PCT is.  No doubt, there are HUGE guys out there that have no clue what they are doing, they simply eat and inject everything they can get their hands on.  Call it blessed genetics if you will.  What worked for him does not mean what he has done is healthy or correct.

In your shoes.  I would train for at least another 6 months naturally and run something like this.

Test enanthate 500mg EW 1-12

Proviron at 50mg ed 1-14
HCG 400-500iu 2X a week
Nolva (on hand in case of gyno)
Clomid for PCT (look up clomid doses)

And if running HGH, I would look at 2iu early AM and see where that puts you.  I don't know of many guys taking less than that as 2iu is probably just enough for better skin and sense of well being.  But, the older you get, the less you will need.  For fat loss and better/tighter definition, you will likely need a few more ius a day.

/V


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## SunAndSteel (Jan 1, 2010)

Why isn't anyone except HeavyIron suggesting running an AI with his gear or with his PCT, for that matter? 

Are Clomid-only PCTs the new thing for 2010? 

Seriously, dude, everything you need to know for a first cycle is contained in HeavyIron's post above.

Are you planning on competing or something? Just not getting the big rush for all this.


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## WFC2010 (Jan 2, 2010)

victor give you good cycle plan


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