# Proviron Off Cycle?



## JCBourne (Jun 26, 2011)

My rat is already showing signs of sex drive dropping after 2 week from last pin, would you recommend proviron in PCT or even off cycle? How long would you suggest?

Thinking my rat may run it next cycle with test c, deca, dbol, think this would be a stupid idea even on a 20 week cycle?


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## underscore (Jun 26, 2011)

What is your PCT?

Could you also explain your logic behind using proviron to increase your sex drive with almost no testosterone in your system? 

Just curious, as I want to keep learning. 

Thanks


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## BigBird (Jun 27, 2011)

underscore said:


> What is your PCT?
> 
> Could you also explain your logic behind using proviron to increase your sex drive with almost no testosterone in your system?
> 
> ...


 
As a pure androgen, Proviron will spike your libido regardless of whether you're running test or not.  Of course, Proviron has virtually zero anabolic value but it is very androgenic.


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## D-Lats (Jun 27, 2011)

Proviron will work great but remember if you are running it you are still on cycle. You wont fully recover bro. It does free up test in the system and has a mild anti estrogen effect but you should eventually come off completely. I think underscore might want to correct me.


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## BigBird (Jun 27, 2011)

D-Lats:  Everyone wants to correct you!!  lol


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## XYZ (Jun 27, 2011)

D-Latsky said:


> Proviron will work great but remember if you are running it you are still on cycle. You wont fully recover bro. It does free up test in the system and has a mild anti estrogen effect but you should eventually come off completely. I think underscore might want to correct me.


 
Proviron does not supress you, at least not in the studies I've read.


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## BigBird (Jun 27, 2011)

CT said:


> Proviron does not supress you, at least not in the studies I've read.


 
So if that's true, one could - in theory - use Proviron off/on for a viagra-like effect if they were experiencing libido problems like the OP alludes to, right?  THe only thing I know about Mesterelone is that it's a pure androgen with nearly no anabolic value whatsoever.  It also "seems" to have an anti-estrogen effect that helps burn BF.  If I'm not mistaken, it's chemical structure is very similar to either Dbol or Stanozolol.  However, it is not 17 a/a hepatoxic.


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## D-Lats (Jun 27, 2011)

I honestly thought i read it does suppress the testes but i could be mixed up. Bigbird i madr that comment because i was accused of being a parrot by undrrscore lol apoerently i just repeat whatever the trend of the thread is lol!! So i just wanted yo make sure my opinion was suitable.


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## XYZ (Jun 27, 2011)

It's been debated both ways.  One way it does shut you down at higher doses and another it doesn't.  Personally, I've only read a few different articles and had several discussions on another board about it.  I walked away feeling comfortable that it is not supressive at 50mg ED and below.  

The facts and arguments seemed to make logical sense to me, but there is really only one way to find out.

However, seeing that it is a synthetic hormone you would think that it would supress you.

I guess to answer the question, you could use it year round if you really wanted to.  I know a lot of guys like it because it has a drying effect on them.


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## JCBourne (Jun 27, 2011)

Alright, I'm going to try in PCT or if I don't get it then, afterwards. I've read people running 50mg ED for 12-18 months with no effects afters blood work, seems like a pretty good deal to keep the sex drive alive after PCT, with strength gains possibly going up.

I'm thinking of trying for about 6 weeks and going from there, CT do you recommend against this?


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## XYZ (Jun 27, 2011)

GymRat4Life said:


> Alright, I'm going to try in PCT or if I don't get it then, afterwards. I've read people running 50mg ED for 12-18 months with no effects afters blood work, seems like a pretty good deal to keep the sex drive alive after PCT, with strength gains possibly going up.
> 
> I'm thinking of trying for about 6 weeks and going from there, CT do you recommend against this?


 

You won't gain any real strength from it, it basically frees up bound testosterone, that's it.  

I think your plan would be fine.


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## BigBird (Jun 27, 2011)

Again - do not expect Proviron to assist with strength nor size.  It's anabolic rating is very very low.  It is highly androgenic but this does not equate to anabolic.  Therefore, the only effect you will notice from working out is perhaps a leaner dryer appearance due to androgen effect.  It is safe and accurate to expect virtually zero anabolic aka strength/tissue building effects from Proviron.


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## JCBourne (Jun 27, 2011)

Yeah not expecting much besides hopefully a sex drive boost. I miss that from test.


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## TwisT (Jun 28, 2011)

Proviron is very very lightly suppressive, yet it is still. Really depends on you and how hard/easily you shut down. If you don't normally have a problem, proviron off cycle would be fine.


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## Vibrant (Jun 28, 2011)

What is the lowest effective dose for proviron? I ordered some for my next cycle but I don't think I got enough proviron is a little pricy.


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## BigBird (Jun 28, 2011)

25mg has always worked for me.  However, I've recently upped it to 50mg (25mg taken 2x daily) - that is, until I ran out nearly 4 weeks ago.


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## XYZ (Jun 28, 2011)

TwisT said:


> Proviron is very very lightly suppressive, yet it is still. Really depends on you and how hard/easily you shut down. If you don't normally have a problem, proviron off cycle would be fine.


 

It's used to treat hypogonadism, so if it were supressive wouldn't that defeat the original purpose?

*The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.*

Varma TR, Patel RH.
*Source*

Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

*Abstract*

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. *Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated.* *There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function*. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.


This study used 100-150mg ED. I suggested using 50mg ED. I think it's safe to say at 50mg ED it is not supressive.


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## D-Lats (Jun 28, 2011)

Interesting study. Thanks CT


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## XYZ (Jun 29, 2011)

No problem.


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## TwisT (Jun 29, 2011)

The study only shows it helps when you have between 5mil and 20mil swimmers, a very *very *narrow margin. Lower or higher that that shows depression or non-improvement. More then likely, any AAS user are *not* in the range of benefit.*

No proviron off-cycle. It will not benefit you.

________________________________

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml)......
**
depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated*. There was no  significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function.  One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9  of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone  was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging  between 5 and 20 million/ml. *Those with severe oligospermia (count less  than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.*


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## TwisT (Jun 29, 2011)

*Mesterolone and idiopathic male infertility: a double-blind study.  World Health Organization Task Force on the Diagnosis and Treatment of  Infertility.*

[No authors listed]
*Abstract*

A  prospective randomized double-blind study was undertaken to assess the  effect on male fertility of 6 months' treatment with the synthetic  androgen mesterolone. The study was performed in seven centres and 248  infertile couples were recruited. All men and their partners were  investigated according to the standardized WHO protocol--Investigation  and Diagnosis of the Infertile Couple. Following this investigation, 157  couples were selected in whom the male diagnosis was primary idiopathic  testicular failure or idiopathic low sperm motility; the female partner  had no demonstrable cause for infertility or was under successful  treatment for a minor endocrine problem. The remaining 91 couples  admitted were either incompletely investigated or had some additional  factor associated with infertility. Men received either 150 or 75 mg  mesterolone daily or placebo. Response was assessed in terms of semen  characteristics and the partner's pregnancy rate. The cumulative life  table pregnancy rates among all couples 8 months after randomization  were 9 +/- 3% (+/- standard error), 12 +/- 4% and 16 +/- 4% in the  placebo, 75 and 150 mg mesterolone groups, respectively. The ratios of  the pregnancy rates compared to placebo were 1.3 (0.5-3.2) and 1.8  (0.7-4.4) for the 75 and 150 mg mesterolone groups respectively. Among  the subset of 157 couples satisfying the strict eligibility criteria,  the pregnancy rates were 11 +/- 5%, 12 +/- 5% and 19 +/- 6% in the  placebo, 75 and 150 mg mesterolone groups, respectively. The  corresponding ratios of pregnancy rates to the placebo group were 1.2  (0.4-3.4) and 1.8 (0.6-5.3) for the 75 and 150 mg mesterolone groups  respectively. There were no significant changes semen quality during the  course of the study, apart from an increase in sperm concentration 3  months after the start of treatment.* The increase was greatest among the  placebo treated group, but did not differ significantly between  treatment groups.*


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## XYZ (Jun 29, 2011)

TwisT said:


> The study only shows it helps when you have between 5mil and 20mil swimmers, a very *very *narrow margin. Lower or higher that that shows depression or non-improvement. More then likely, any AAS user are *not* in the range of benefit.
> 
> *No proviron off-cycle. It will not benefit you.*
> 
> ...


 

You're missing the point of the LH and FSH issue.  That is what is being discussed here as well at testosterone levels.

Guys on gear have gotten women pregnant all the time, so the number of swimmers is secondary to the issue of LH, FSH and testosterone for this particular thread.

How many people actually go and get a semen analysis done during PCT anyhow?  It also only takes one swimmer to work as well.  I know guys who have been well below 5M and have children without having to use a fertility clinic.


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## juggernaut (Jun 29, 2011)

BigBird said:


> S - in theory - use Proviron off/on for a viagra-like effect if they were experiencing libido problems like the OP alludes to, right?


I'm confused. Why not just use viagra/cialis if it's only the rat issue? This is what this is used for.


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## XYZ (Jun 29, 2011)

TwisT said:


> *Mesterolone and idiopathic male infertility: a double-blind study. World Health Organization Task Force on the Diagnosis and Treatment of Infertility.*
> 
> [No authors listed]
> *Abstract*
> ...


 

Neither of the studies you posted here mentions the use of hcg, hmg or clomid ALL of which are a part of a standard protocol. You're comparing apples to oranges here.


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## juggernaut (Jun 29, 2011)

Interesting stuff CT.


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## Vibrant (Jun 29, 2011)

Damn, this thread is heating up. I love it when two knowledgeable get into a debate.


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## D-Lats (Jun 29, 2011)

Trust me you can get a girl pregnant on cycle lol! I have my beautiful daughter to prive it!


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## juggernaut (Jun 29, 2011)

D-Latsky said:


> Trust me you can get a girl pregnant on cycle lol! I have my beautiful daughter to prive it!



How many weeks were you on for?


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## TwisT (Jun 29, 2011)

CT said:


> Neither of the studies you posted here mentions the use of hcg, hmg or clomid ALL of which are a part of a standard protocol. You're comparing apples to oranges here.



We are talking about proviron, not hcg, hmg, santa clause or hitler. Proviron.



CT said:


> You're missing the point of the LH and FSH issue.   That is what is being discussed here as well at testosterone levels.
> 
> Guys on gear have gotten women pregnant all the time, so the number of  *swimmers is secondary to the issue of LH, FSH* and testosterone for this  particular thread.
> 
> How many people actually go and get a semen analysis done during PCT  anyhow?  It also only takes one swimmer to work as well.  I know guys  who have been well below 5M and have children without having to use a  fertility clinic.



You dont understand FSH..... FSH *IS* sperm count (kindof)

FSH is a DIRECT agonist for sperm germ cell maturation, *not* LH. LH has very little if nothing to do with sperm count, maturity, germ cell development. (yet obviously botha re hand-in-hand in fertility) How can you say I didn't touch on the FSH issue when both studies are directly related to *sperm count.* Sperm count is a *DIRECT *result of FSH secretion. Lower spem count means your FSH is not being secreted from the anterior pituitary. 

You dont need to get a sperm count, FSH is covered in almost every hormone panel.

The point is, its proven that Priviron suppresses/has little to no effect other then between the ranges of 5-20mil sperm, (most likly because the subjects pituitary reacted to secretagogue), on FSH. Meaning its no good for PCT.... thats the point.


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## D-Lats (Jun 29, 2011)

I was on a long cycle of test and tren i would say it was atleast ten weeks in. I was running proviron and no ai. Just had nolva it was before i learned about the other drugs used with 19 nors. Never had any issues with estrogen or prolactin ever. I used the proviron as a hardner and run it post cycle for another 5 weeks.


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## XYZ (Jun 29, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> Interesting stuff CT.


 

I was always under the impression that ANY amount of ANY aas would cause shutdown.  Then this exact topic came up on a different board and the studies, facts and opinions really made me second guess this particular med.  It was eye opening, that's for sure.


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## XYZ (Jun 29, 2011)

TwisT said:


> We are talking about proviron, not hcg, hmg, santa clause or hitler. Proviron.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I disagree.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match and post study after study as we both could find studies which contradict each other.

I totally 100% believe in what I posted and what the study I posted states.  I still won't change my opinion that at 50mg ED supression is void.

The studies you posted (as I've already stated once before) do not mention hcg, hmg or clomid being used, which most people who run a PCT use.  The study mentions that the male had either idiopathic testicular failure or idiopathic low sperm mobility, and were dosed at 75-150mg proviron ED.  MOST aas users do NOT have either of these symptoms.

IF an aas user had been using hcg on cycle and also used clomid for PCT then you're using data that does not apply to the original question, not to mention the fact that they never had issues with ITF or ILSM.  The study and an aas user are two totally different subjects which do not have the same criteria.  That is what I'm getting at, not Santa Clause or Hitler just the fact that proviron at 50mg ED does not cause shutdown for an aas user.


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## ZECH (Jun 29, 2011)

I don't want to get involved in weather it is suppresive or not. I will tilt to the side that it is, just for safety sakes. The whole point in PCT is to recover your natural test. 
To me that means staying off all aas until you have recovered. I would use viagra.
CT, can you post a link so I can read that thread? Sounds interesting.


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## heavyiron (Jun 29, 2011)

CT said:


> It's used to treat hypogonadism, so if it were supressive wouldn't that defeat the original purpose?
> 
> *The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.*
> 
> ...


 

Good study!


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## TwisT (Jun 29, 2011)

I think we can both agree, we really would need to see, and would benefit from, a study on anabolic users in the PCT phase with proviron  I realllyyyy want to see that study.

Not a pissing match, educational debate... much more fun 




CT said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I'm not going to get into a pissing match and post study after study as we both could find studies which contradict each other.
> 
> ...


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## heavyiron (Jun 29, 2011)

Int Urol Nephrol. 1978;10(3):251-6.

*Mesterolone treatment of patients with pathospermia.*

Szöllösi J, Falkay GY, Sas M.

*Abstract*

The response to Mesterolone, in doses of 25 mg/day, was examined in 42 pathospermic patients. Treatment lasted for 100 days. The pronounced response to the Mesterolone treatment was observed in hypozoo- and oligozoospermia with low initial fructose content in the ejaculate. Fructose content attained its normal range after the treatment. During the therapeutic period 11 wives became pregnant.The authors conclude that Mesterolone does not influence plasma FSH, LH and testosterone levels, it has only peripheral effects.

PMID:689818[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## XYZ (Jun 29, 2011)

heavyiron said:


> Int Urol Nephrol. 1978;10(3):251-6.
> 
> *Mesterolone treatment of patients with pathospermia.*
> 
> ...


 

Thanks for taking the time to post that up.


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## BigBird (Jun 29, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> I'm confused. Why not just use viagra/cialis if it's only the rat issue? This is what this is used for.


 
Well for starters, I don't believe Proviron has the tendency to make you flush aka red-faced the way Viagra or Cialis would.  Also, Proviron - as a puire androgen - offers the additional benefit of body hardening which would not be the case with Viagra and similar ED drugs.  Therefore, if all things are considered equal and Proviron doesn't shut you down at low to moderate doses, I would choose Proviron to resolve libido issues when off-cycle (as well as on cycle).


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## heavyiron (Jun 29, 2011)

CT said:


> Thanks for taking the time to post that up.


 I have read a number of studies and all the lower dose ones show zero effect on LH or T levels.


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## D-Lats (Jun 29, 2011)

So in conclusion proviron is simply magic lol!!


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## heavyiron (Jun 29, 2011)

D-Latsky said:


> So in conclusion proviron is simply magic lol!!


 No, it will supress at higher doses. This effect may also happen at very long durations so keep dose and duration reasonable.


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## D-Lats (Jun 29, 2011)

Thats somewhat what i said at the start of the thread lol! Ive always believed it to cause the natural production of test to stop. I havent done research as deep as yourself or CT or Twist but it only makes sence in my mind that something so androgenic would have to have  spillover. I would really like to see a scientific study done on it involving aas. Anyone who has used it understand what it does just need to know the "how" part.


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