# All my M1T research in one post



## Purdue Power (Sep 1, 2004)

I have done daily research for over a month for everything about doing an M1T cycle, and I wanted to save people the time and make sure that they are well informed about all that an M1T cycle entails.
Here is what I have learned thus far:
DO NOT START ANYTHING UNTIL YOU HAVE NOLVDEX ON HAND FOR YOUR PCT-->if gyno starts to set in, you are FUCKED if you don't have it on hand for immediate use.

Start you 4Derm by Dermabolics 1 week before starting your M1T to get your test levels up before you start your M1T- 4 sprays twice a day 12 hours apart

Start taking Alpha Lipoic Acid for liver protection a few days before you start you M1T and continue all through the cycle and through your pct.

Start you M1T @ 5-10mg a day, taking the entire dose post workout and     continue the dosage of 4Derm through the cycle.
Listen to your body, if the side effects are mild or not there at all, up your dose by 5mg/day.  If the sides are bad, lower your dose and/or increase your dose of 4Derm.  Take the M1T for NO MORE THAN 3 weeks, less if the sides get too unbearable.  Eat insane amounts; you can't build muscle without something to build it with.

Take at least 1000mcg of B12 a day to keep you appetite up.
Take shit loads of Vit C and Echinacea to keep your immune system up.

Continue the 4Derm for 2 weeks after you stop the M1T along with your VitC and Echinacea and Alpha Lipoic Acid. Keep you calories up.

Start your pct of Nolvadex the last day of your 4Derm.  For the first 2 days, take 60mg/day.  For the next 2 weeks, 40mg/day.  Last 2 weeks, 20mg/day.  Keep you calories up, or you will lose the strength and size that you just gained.  You can do 2 weeks of Clenbuterol to burn off much of the fat that you put on and rid some of the water retention.

If anyone has anything that they think should be added or changed, please let me know.


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## Pirate! (Sep 2, 2004)

I don't understand why you would do 60 mg of nolva for the first two days. First 2 weeks sounds better to me (especially if using liquid). The clen during PCT is to keep from gaing fat with your calories high. Fat loss should not be a goal during PCT. JMO


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## MTN WARRIOR (Sep 2, 2004)

See nothing wrong with going 4 weeks on M1T.  Shouldnt need liver protectant until you start M1t.  Think you should start your PCT as soon as you stop M1T.  IMHO


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## Pirate! (Sep 2, 2004)

I agree. Didn't catch that stuff. I would suggest 3 weeks for newbies though.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 2, 2004)

so start the Nolva as soon as the M1T is done and continue the 4Derm for 2 more weeks?


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## Pirate! (Sep 2, 2004)

Some people stop both at the same time. I pefere to continue the 4-Derm as my body recovers from the M1T, as do others. It is a matter of preference. 4-AD is best run for 6 weeks, IMO.


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## gococksDJS (Sep 2, 2004)

Not meaning to get off the subject but Pirate, i saw an earlier post under a different thread that you added 3 g's of 4-AD powder to a bottle of 4 derm. I am about to do this and i know to put the 4 derm in hot water but was just wondering exactly how you went about doing this? I'm gonna add 4 grams to my 4 derm before i start an M1T cycle.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 2, 2004)

MTN WARRIOR said:
			
		

> See nothing wrong with going 4 weeks on M1T. Shouldnt need liver protectant until you start M1t. Think you should start your PCT as soon as you stop M1T. IMHO





			
				PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> Some people stop both at the same time. I pefere to continue the 4-Derm as my body recovers from the M1T, as do others. It is a matter of preference. 4-AD is best run for 6 weeks, IMO.


So do I start my pct once I stop the M1T or once I stop the 4Derm?


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## redspy (Sep 2, 2004)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> So do I start my pct once I stop the M1T or once I stop the 4Derm?


 You start PCT the day after you stop taking PH/PS's, in this case after you finish the 4-AD.


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## MTN WARRIOR (Sep 2, 2004)

So we have a contradiction of opinions which may be confusing people here.  NP.  Start PCT after conclusion of PH/PS.  IMO, stop taking 4AD when you stop taking M1T.  IT is there to counter the sides of MIT.  The PCT is there to jumpstart the test production after the shutdown caused by excessive amounts put in by the use of M1T, not by the use of 4AD.  4AD does not cause the shutdown, it is attempting to counter the effects.  So it doesnt make sense to me to continue the use of 4AD and NOT start PCT immediately after stopping the use of M1T.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 2, 2004)

Well, just to make sure both sides are played out and defended, I have been told that continuing the 4AD for the last two weeks makes a better transition to the pct.  So I would assume that you would be continuing to keep you test levels up with the 4AD while your nuts started to kick back in, and then after those 2 weeks were up, since the 4AD doesn't cause a shutdown, your nuts will be back in lower gear when you start your pct.


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## redspy (Sep 2, 2004)

MTN WARRIOR said:
			
		

> 4AD does not cause the shutdown, it is attempting to counter the effects.


 This is not completely correct.  It's true M1T will shutdown natural testosterone production very quickly and that the addition of 4-AD will increase Testosterone levels to offset side effects.  However, after 4-AD is converted it's still exogenous testosterone and it will shutdown natural test production.

 After the cessation of M1T you will still have the potential to make more gains from use of 4-AD.  Not massive gains of course, but gains all the same.


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## MTN WARRIOR (Sep 2, 2004)

redspy said:
			
		

> This is not completely correct.  It's true M1T will shutdown natural testosterone production very quickly and that the addition of 4-AD will increase Testosterone levels to offset side effects.  However, after 4-AD is converted it's still exogenous testosterone and it will shutdown natural test production.
> 
> After the cessation of M1T you will still have the potential to make more gains from use of 4-AD.  Not massive gains of course, but gains all the same.



Test production shuts down due to the extraordinary amount of exogenous test produced by M1T use.  You stop using M1t and start PCT because you dont want "permanent" shutdown.  WHY would you continue to use 4AD without starting PCT.  After 4 weeks for example, you are mostly shut down.  The minimal amount of exo-test that 4AD will convert will not be sufficient to kick start you.  You need PCT.  And I don't believe you will make ANY gains being off M1t, shutdown and not on PCT.  You have virtually no test running around your body.


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## redspy (Sep 2, 2004)

MTN WARRIOR said:
			
		

> You stop using M1t and start PCT because you dont want "permanent" shutdown.


 A 4-6 week cycle isn't going to cause permenent shutdown. A 12 week cycle of potent AAS without HCG is a different story.



			
				MTN WARRIOR said:
			
		

> WHY would you continue to use 4AD without starting PCT.


 The question is why would you start PCT while still ingesting exogenous testosterone? It doesn't make sense. PCT is started after all androgens are stopped to allow the HPTA to return to its normal state.



			
				MTN WARRIOR said:
			
		

> After 4 weeks for example, you are mostly shut down. The minimal amount of exo-test that 4AD will convert will not be sufficient to kick start you.


 After 3-4 days of M1T you'll be shutdown. If you take a high dose of transdermal 4-AD it will elevate Test levels after cessation of M1T IMO. I agree with Pirate's tactic of avoiding a post M1T crash by using 4-AD after.



			
				MTN WARRIOR said:
			
		

> You need PCT. And I don't believe you will make ANY gains being off M1t, shutdown and not on PCT. You have virtually no test running around your body.


 I'm not disputing the need for PCT, we all know it's critical. This issue at hand here is timing. IMO you'll still make small gains and more importantly you'll reduce the post M1T crash . While on 4-AD your lipid profile will improve as will your liver values.

   You clearly have your approach and I have mine.  The M1T user will make up their own mind.


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## MTN WARRIOR (Sep 2, 2004)

My approach is only based on my interpretation of my research.  It may be flawed and I bow to you and Pirates experience.  I have done only a few PH/PS cycles.  IF I am wrong, then it is through mis-interpretation of my reasearch.  I am certainly not arguing with you guys.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 2, 2004)

So is the verdict that one should continue high doses of 4AD for around 2 weeks after cessation of the M1T, and then start on pct?


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## MTN WARRIOR (Sep 2, 2004)

Thats not my opinion, but its a technique.


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## redspy (Sep 2, 2004)

MTN WARRIOR said:
			
		

> My approach is only based on my interpretation of my research. It may be flawed and I bow to you and Pirates experience. I have done only a few PH/PS cycles. IF I am wrong, then it is through mis-interpretation of my reasearch. I am certainly not arguing with you guys.


 I don't see this as an argument, you've certainly done your research and combined that with your experience.  I've just come to a different conclusion.


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## Pirate! (Sep 2, 2004)

As I said, it is a matter of preference. My experience and research causes me to like the cycle I have stated. It wouldn't hurt to run some nolva those last two weeks while you run high levels of 4-AD, but PCT definitely starts when you stop all PH/PS. Others cycle it this way, too: http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=31166
Unfortunately, a few months ago I told MTN that I thought the cycle he speaks of made since to me. After doing it, I learned better: http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=33782&highlight=M1T+4-AD


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## redspy (Sep 2, 2004)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> So is the verdict that one should continue high doses of 4AD for around 2 weeks after cessation of the M1T, and then start on pct?


 There's no Unified Theory on PH stacks, so you have to do what feels right for you.

 I'm two weeks into a M1,4ADD/4-AD and M5AA (preworkout) stack.  I'll post my results when I'm finished in 4 weeks.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 6, 2004)

Has anyone that has done an M1T stack had the opposite of the common side effects?  I ask because when i have done my previous 1-Test cycles, I had the opposite effects of the common sides, being that my labido was kicked into high gear, my energy was up, and I was hungry all the time.  I just wondered if I would have the same effects with M1T.


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## Redneck (Sep 6, 2004)

*Purdue*

I'm 42 and my libido goes through the roof on 20mg M1t / 4ad Derm stack....... I haven't felt like this since i was in my early twenties. This is my second cycle and really haven't had any sides to speak of.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 6, 2004)

What brand of M1T are you using(seems to be potentcy differences btw the brands) and how many sprays of 4Derm are you using?


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## Redneck (Sep 6, 2004)

*Purdue*

I use Underground Labs m1t 10mg about 7am with 6 sprays of Dermabolics 4ad Derm and then i repeat that around 3:30pm.

My wife thinks i'm taking viagra!


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## Pirate! (Sep 6, 2004)

Yeah, 12 sprays of 4-derm definitely gets the libido going. It was during PCT--after stopping both at the same time--that my libido was shot. I was actually real horny during the first few days of my cycle, even though I started at only 6 sprays a day (3 sprays twice daily).


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## Purdue Power (Sep 6, 2004)

Ya, I think I AM going to go with the 2 weeks of 4Derm after my 3 weeks of M1T.  I think I am going to start on low doses of 6OXO for those 2 weeks, since I have some left over, along with some Irwin Naturals Steel Labido that I got for free from work.  I will then start on Nolva after those 2 weeks are over.  Someone tell me if this sounds good or if it is a fuckup waiting to happen.


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## topolo (Sep 6, 2004)

MTN WARRIOR said:
			
		

> So we have a contradiction of opinions which may be confusing people here.  NP.  Start PCT after conclusion of PH/PS.  IMO, stop taking 4AD when you stop taking M1T.  IT is there to counter the sides of MIT.  The PCT is there to jumpstart the test production after the shutdown caused by excessive amounts put in by the use of M1T, not by the use of 4AD.  4AD does not cause the shutdown, it is attempting to counter the effects.  So it doesnt make sense to me to continue the use of 4AD and NOT start PCT immediately after stopping the use of M1T.



I agree with this


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## Redneck (Sep 6, 2004)

*Pirate*

The only problem with that many sprays of 4 derm.......I smell like oranges all day.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 7, 2004)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> Ya, I think I AM going to go with the 2 weeks of 4Derm after my 3 weeks of M1T. I think I am going to start on low doses of 6OXO for those 2 weeks, since I have some left over, along with some Irwin Naturals Steel Labido that I got for free from work. I will then start on Nolva after those 2 weeks are over. Someone tell me if this sounds good or if it is a fuckup waiting to happen.


So does anyone have any comments about this approach?


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## pop (Sep 8, 2004)

can u tell me plz wat 4 derm is, is oxo6 a good test stimulate and Alpha Lipoic Acid can i use this on dianobol does it protect the liver and where can i get it tyvm


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## Pirate! (Sep 8, 2004)

Many people would say that is a waste of 6-oxo, but I did the same kind of thing. I had about half a bottle left, but planned on using nolva for pct, so I just ate a bunch of 6-oxo during the last week of my cycle. It couldn't hurt, but it might not help much either. I don't know what Irwin Naturals Steel Labido is, but it sounds funny.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 8, 2004)

pop said:
			
		

> can u tell me plz wat 4 derm is, is oxo6 a good test stimulate and Alpha Lipoic Acid can i use this on dianobol does it protect the liver and where can i get it tyvm


 Pop, you need to first start by typing in sentences, using punctuation and separating your statements.  Then you would do good to use the search tool to find answers to the questions that you have.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 8, 2004)

The steel labido is a mix of Tribulus, Arganine, Horny Goat Weed, and a bunch of other stuff for raising labido.  I figured that every little bit would help.  We get a bunch of sample packs at work, so I helped myself, so now I have a bunch of little baggies with 6 black pills in them.  I look like a recreational pharmacist.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 8, 2004)

I just started my M1T on Monday(today being Wed).  I did the full week of 4Derm last week with 4 sprays at a time, 2 times a day.  There is definately a lot more test in my system now.  It is like being in HS again with all of the sudden erections.  It is pretty awesome.  I'm only 21, so I still naturally have high test levels.  I will post again when I can tell that the M1T is kicking in, which according to the common occurence with other people's posts, should be in the next day or 2.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 8, 2004)

If my the time of day that I lift for a certain day permits me to take my M1T in 2 doses, would that be better?  Being that like today, I don't lift till 5, so I took 5mg this morning and I will take another 5mg after I lift.  Or should I still just take it all at once?


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## gococksDJS (Sep 8, 2004)

I also started M1T on Monday, right now im doing 15 mg. a day and doing 5 sprays of 4-Derm twice a day but i added 4 grams of 4-AD powder to it. I am in college and can't lift until around 4 or 5 so I have been taking 5 mg in the morning and then 10 mg in the afternoon. I gotta be careful in class though due to the 4 Derm. Ill pop up out of nowhere and have to execute the flip. Im starting to get slight headaches at night though but nothing thats too bad, but the M1T should kick in pretty soon. My initial plan was 2 weeks on M1T followed by 4 weeks on S1+ and then another 2 weeks on M1T and then an aggressive PCT but i doubt ill do that now. I'm gonna get bloodwork done about halfway through just to see what the deal is and ill post my results.


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## Pirate! (Sep 9, 2004)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> I gotta be careful in class though due to the 4 Derm. Ill pop up out of nowhere and have to execute the flip.


  I had the same problem. Post your blood work. I split up my doses sometims just to keep blood pressure in check. I don't see anything wrong with it, PP.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 9, 2004)

Day 4- I had a huge swell going this morning doing bi's(more than ususal).  It looked like I had roid arms goin.  This is good shit so far.  

How long should I wait to up my dosage if I don't see any sides???  I havn't seen any yet.


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## gococksDJS (Sep 9, 2004)

I would say a week. Im at 15mg a day and all ive seen is small headache's at night but they go away so im gonna up it to 20 mg this monday if i don't see any more sides.


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## rrgg (Sep 9, 2004)

I don't think I read any responses to the following instruction:



> Start you 4Derm by Dermabolics 1 week before starting your M1T to get your test levels up before you start your M1T- 4 sprays twice a day 12 hours apart



Do you guys agree with this logic?  If so, would you apply this to other cycles, say doing it for 1 week before using 1-test/4ad together?  I haven't really seen this recommendation before.


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## gococksDJS (Sep 9, 2004)

I did not do this, so im not sure how important it is. I started 4Derm the same day I started M1T, and added 4 more grams of 4-AD to the 4Derm. I haven't encountered any shutdowns yet, but this is only my 4th day


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## Purdue Power (Sep 12, 2004)

I have been on the M1T for a week now.  I started at 10mg/day and didn't have any sides and saw a big increase in size by day 4.  And you know if you can tell a difference in *yourself,* that there must be a difference.  I upped my dosage to 15mg/day a couple days ago, and still don't have any sides.  I hope that this keeps up so I can share everything that I did so that others might be able to cycle w/o the sides.  I definately think that the week of 4Derm prior to starting the M1T helped, and all of the extra vitamins that I am pumping in.


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## Pirate! (Sep 12, 2004)

I kept upping my dose based on lack of sides, but now I know it was a mistake. One thing is for sure: the higher dose you take, the more and longer you are shut down. One thing is up for debate: If you get great results with 10 mg, will you get better results with 20 mg? I seriously doubt it. I figured the more the merrier, and payed the price. My gains on 10 mg/ day were just as good as my gains on 20 mg/day (on my first M1T cycle). I have read many posts where others have shared the same experience. I have two more M1T cycles planned in the future, and I have no intention of going above 10 mg/day. Why shut myself down twice as hard when I get awesome results with 10 mg M1T and plenty of 4-derm? It is a better policy to take the least amount a drug necessary to get the desired effect. Your body will only produce new muscle so fast. You should just take enough to get the job done. This amount will vary with individuals and the quality of your product.


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## Pirate! (Sep 12, 2004)

rrgg said:
			
		

> I don't think I read any responses to the following instruction:
> Do you guys agree with this logic?  If so, would you apply this to other cycles, say doing it for 1 week before using 1-test/4ad together?  I haven't really seen this recommendation before.


It is not necessary. I think it is more important to continue the 4-AD after you stop the M1T than to start the 4-AD first. You will have a smoother transition into PCT, IMO. I don't see any reason to do it with 1-Test, because one test doesn't hit so hard so fast. What brands of M1T are you two using?


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## rrgg (Sep 12, 2004)

Pirate- I guess I was just asking whether this is a sound idea.  I think you're saying it is, but maybe not the best strategy.  (To answer your other question-- I'm not using m1t)


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## Purdue Power (Sep 12, 2004)

I am on the UG M1T.
Is it too late to go back to 10mg/day, or do I have to stay at 15 to keep my progress?  I have only been doing 15mg for 2 days.


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## firestorm (Sep 12, 2004)

Redneck said:
			
		

> I use Underground Labs m1t 10mg about 7am with 6 sprays of Dermabolics 4ad Derm and then i repeat that around 3:30pm.
> 
> My wife thinks i'm taking viagra!



I'm 42 as well, maybe I better up my amount of 4ad then cause I didn't have this experience.  sheeit.


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## firestorm (Sep 12, 2004)

Well all this M1T talk got me all excited.  I'll start a cycle tomorrow.  I don't have any of that spray on stuff guys so I'm just gonna go with 4ad caps.  Anybody see a problem with that????  That is how I did it in the past but I'm wondering now of what if any benefits the spray has over the oral.  ??????  Word??


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## PreMier (Sep 12, 2004)

4ad isnt very bio available.  The liver breaks it down way too fast, the transdermal spray is highly recommended.  Mike sells 4-derm for pretty cheap at bulknutrition.com.

Here is from the FAQ:


> 4AD
> 
> 4AD is the next best. It is almost always used with other hormones due also to its resounding user feedback and adding large amounts of mass from increases in testosterone and estrogen. 4AD can be taken orally, transdermally, or sublingually.
> 2-6 week cycles are generally used. 4AD can be stacked with just about anything.
> ...




Notice that almost tripple dosage is needed orally.


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## firestorm (Sep 12, 2004)

Well since I have so damn much of it, wouldn't spacing it out throughout the day work?


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## PreMier (Sep 12, 2004)

Do you have raw powder?  You could buy some t-gel and make your own transdermal I believe.


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## firestorm (Sep 12, 2004)

disregard last post, I didn't see that quote you put up there....I thought it was one of those big as signatures  Thank you for the imput. Very appreciated.


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## PreMier (Sep 12, 2004)

Your welcome.


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## firestorm (Sep 12, 2004)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Do you have raw powder?  You could buy some t-gel and make your own transdermal I believe.



Several months ago I bought 15 bottles of M1T and like 10 bottles of 4ad Caps.  Ironically I did buy the 6 oxo in powder form and made my own caps.  
I'd really Hate to sit there pulling all those 4ad caps apart but I suppose I could.  Would doing so work or is the powder form used for the spray a different compound.


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## PreMier (Sep 12, 2004)

Im not 100% sure.. but I believe its the same thing.  I mean 4ad is 4ad right?  It would be a pain to pull them apart, but you would save yourself a bit of money, because you would have to use far less.  You can get t-gel from custom, and even DMSO(wich increases absorbtion).  You want your stuff to be ~10% DMSO.

Maybe redspy or pirate will chime in, they know more than me.


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## firestorm (Sep 12, 2004)

I can always check the bottle of 4ad for additives but I'm not sure if the other form is treated or something. Maybe powedered down more, who knows.  Just have to wait for more input OR just go and buy it.  I'd pretty much assume though it's the same thing.  only real thing might be possible additives in the precapped stuff.  
Thanks again for all the imput.  I also copied/pasted your FAQ quote to word and printed it.  that was very helpful


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## PreMier (Sep 12, 2004)

Edit.. the t-gel from custom has DMFA in it.. no need for DMSO


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## PreMier (Sep 12, 2004)

For proper credit, the FAQ came from here http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=27368


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## firestorm (Sep 12, 2004)

Awesome. one less thing to have to measure. lol  Thanks man.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 12, 2004)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> Is it too late to go back to 10mg/day, or do I have to stay at 15 to keep my progress? I have only been doing 15mg for 2 days.


:bump


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## firestorm (Sep 12, 2004)

I very much doubt anyone will debate this but dropping the dose would be fine. In fact "encouraged" as I'm sure you may have read regarding negative sides.  I personnally on my 1st cycle had such lethargy that I was forced to cut back and actually made better gains.  I'm sure that was due to the "lack" of lethargy but the point being, cutting the dose to 10 is actually the prescribed amount so do so expecially if it's only been a couple of days.


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## Pirate! (Sep 12, 2004)

PP, It is not too late. I backed off during my cycle when I realized that I wasn't getting better gains and just shutting down harder. My gains were just as good when I backed off to 10mg/day again.

rrgg, I should have been more specific. I was asking PP & gococksDJS what brand they were using in the same post that I addressed your question.


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## Luke9583 (Sep 12, 2004)

I'm starting a 5mg a day 4 week cycle tomorrow with UG labs


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## redspy (Sep 12, 2004)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Edit.. the t-gel from custom has DMFA in it.. no need for DMSO


 Custom's T-Gel is great, it absorbs rapidly in the skin and doesn't leave behind a greasy residue. I added 10 grams of bulk 4-AD powder with no problems.

 With regard to breaking up the 4-AD caps the only issue is what fillers, if any, were added during the capping process. Hopefully they're pure 4-AD and if so a transdermal is a much better option. Even if fillers were used I'm sure it would be with inert ingredients so it's not going to cause any harm IMO.


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## redspy (Sep 12, 2004)

Luke9583 said:
			
		

> I'm starting a 5mg a day 4 week cycle tomorrow with UG labs


 Are you intending to split the pill into two 2.5mg doses?


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## Purdue Power (Sep 12, 2004)

I cut back to 10mg/day starting today.  This is the last day of my first week, and I am blowing up huge.  My swells are enormous and I am putting on some insane mass.  Everyone is telling me that I am looking a lot bigger too.  I wonder how long it will be before somebody asks me if I am on steroids.


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## firestorm (Sep 12, 2004)

Thanks Red


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## redspy (Sep 12, 2004)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> I cut back to 10mg/day starting today. This is the last day of my first week, and I am blowing up huge. My swells are enormous and I am putting on some insane mass. Everyone is telling me that I am looking a lot bigger too. I wonder how long it will be before somebody asks me if I am on steroids.


 Glad things are working out well for you.  I've seen a few cycle logs of people running 5-10mg for 4 weeks and they love it because of the great gains and low sides.  When people see great gains at 10mg there's a huge temptation to jack up the dose without waiting to see what 10mg will do for a longer period of time.  Next cycle I'll be running 10mg M1T with transdermal 4-AD.

 Keep us updated


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## Purdue Power (Sep 12, 2004)

If I havn't had any hint of signs after the first week, that doesn't mean that I won't have sides at all, does it???  I have had quite the opposite of all the side effects that I have been warned about: my appetite is through the roof(eating every hour and a half), labido through the roof(from 4Derm), no headaches, lots of energy....


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## firestorm (Sep 12, 2004)

Perdue, I will say that when I suffered and I mean suffered from lethargy it was almost immediate. 24 hours after 1st dose and I felf like I was hit by a truck. I couldn't get enough sleep.  I'd think that if you were going to get some of those types of sides you  would have had them already.  As for any of the other possibilities I can't say since I didn't have any.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 13, 2004)

Still no sides after starting into my 2nd week.  My swells are still huge and everyone is telling me that I am a lot bigger.


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## redspy (Sep 13, 2004)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> Still no sides after starting into my 2nd week.


 I wonder whether your liver agrees with that statement?


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## Purdue Power (Sep 13, 2004)

Poor guy...I am feeding him ALA.  I don't drink anyways, so that is less for it to deal with.  Are there any signs that it might be stressed?


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## PreMier (Sep 13, 2004)

Not untill its too late.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 16, 2004)

I may be experiencing the first signs of side effects towards the end of my 2nd week.  I have noticed a slight appearance of very tiny whiteheads on my forehead and around my nose.  It may also be due to the heat and humidity around here causing my skin to be oily and sweaty.  It is by no means a bad case, but it is worth noting, since this is the first side that I have had.


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## redspy (Sep 16, 2004)

It could also be a side effect of the 4Derm.


----------



## Pirate! (Sep 16, 2004)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> Poor guy...I am feeding him ALA.  I don't drink anyways, so that is less for it to deal with.  Are there any signs that it might be stressed?


It is possible that you could wake up feeling like you have to shit really bad. When you let it out, you will see that you just shat out your liver. Unlikely, but possible. You wont see it coming. Everything will be fine, then its all over. Before you can fish it out of the pot and call 911, you will fall down dead. Your friends will find you lying on the bathroom floor naked with a shit-coated liver in your hand. However, it wont do any good to worry about it. Either you live or you die. Just enjoy the gains while your heart still beats in your chest. If you quit posting, we will no why.


----------



## PreMier (Sep 16, 2004)




----------



## redspy (Sep 16, 2004)

Pirate's a little edgy as he goes under the knife tomorrow. Hope that shoulder is okay bro!


----------



## babylon (Sep 16, 2004)

here is a question i have had for a while...if methyl 1-test doesnt convert to estogen why should one still watch out for gyno? ? ?


----------



## Purdue Power (Sep 17, 2004)

The test in your system can convert to estrogen, but not the M1T directly.


----------



## Pirate! (Sep 17, 2004)

Gyno from M1T is extremely rare. If you are particularly prone to gyno and you stack with a bunch of 4-AD, then you have cause to watch for it. Even then, it is rare.


----------



## rrgg (Sep 17, 2004)

Do you guys think it's equally rare for other PH/PS that don't directly convert?  It seems like this wouldn't be an issue without high enough test levels.


----------



## Pirate! (Sep 17, 2004)

I think most cases of gyno with PH/PS involve gross overdosing. When you say "directly convert" do you mean to testosterone? All PH directly convert to something. It is certainly an issue with high enough test levels. The test is what coverts to estrogen--which is usually the cause of gyno.


----------



## rrgg (Sep 17, 2004)

PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> When you say "directly convert" do you mean to testosterone?


I meant PH that have some direct conversion to estrogen





> It is certainly an issue with high enough test levels.


Yes, but then the issue is defining overdosing.  It seems different for everyone.


----------



## Pirate! (Sep 18, 2004)

rrgg said:
			
		

> It seems like this wouldn't be an issue without high enough test levels.


I see. I misunderstood. Gyno is rarely an issue when test isn't being raised significantly. However, some PH can convert to estrogen.

5 androstenediol (5AD or 5diol) converts to testosterone at a very low rate and is an estrogen agonist
4 androstenedione (andro) converts to testosterone and estrone (estrogen)
19 nor-4-androstenedione (norandro) converts to nortestosterone and estrogen
DHEA converts to androstenedione and can be converted to all other hormones
Pregnenolone converts to progesterone and can be converted to all other hormones

Therefore, gyno can happen without high test levels.


----------



## Purdue Power (Sep 19, 2004)

I am have reduced my 4Derm dosage to 3 sprays at a time.  I think it is the cause of my appearance of whiteheads, though not a major problem.  My gains havn't been as drastic as the first week, so I am going to up my M1T dosage up to 15mg.


----------



## Luke9583 (Sep 19, 2004)

I seem to get ance with 4ad too, i'm not prone to getting acne either.


----------



## Pirate! (Sep 19, 2004)

Who gives a fuck about zits? I'd keep the 4-derm up PP. Just wash your face more more often and get a drying agent like benzol peroxide. It is only for a few weeks. Nolva gives me worse zits than 4-derm.


----------



## Purdue Power (Sep 19, 2004)

I have had no signs of side effects.  There is no reason why I should need to keep my dosage that high.  I will raise it back up for my last two weeks when I am running it solo.


----------



## Pirate! (Sep 19, 2004)

cool then


----------



## Purdue Power (Sep 20, 2004)

I think that I have been experiencing a side from M1T the whole time, but didn't know that was what it was from.  I thought that I just had some allergies goin, but I have read that some people get a lot of sinus drainage while on M1T.  It isn't all day long, but on and off throughout.  Other than that, everything is going well.  This is my last week(done Sunday) and then I have the 1 1/2 to 2 weeks of 4Derm left, then the long road of kickin my bunnies back into gear.  Then the wait to do it all over again!


----------



## redspy (Sep 20, 2004)

How are your gains so far?


----------



## Pirate! (Sep 21, 2004)

Well, he didn't shit his liver out yet.


----------



## Purdue Power (Sep 21, 2004)

Qualitatively, my gains have been awesome.  Quantitatively, I'm not sure how much weight I have gained.  My size has gone way up, with everyone telling me week to week that I look like I am getting a lot bigger.  I can't wait to go home to see my family(I am away at college and see them once every other month at most) to see what they have to say.  My strength has gone way up.  I aim for 5 reps on lifts that I would have never been able to get 3 on, and I get upwards and around 10 reps on them.  I just got 405 for 6 on squats yesterday for the first time and I got 225 for 10 on incline bench.  It is gonna be a shame to stop the cycle.


----------



## Purdue Power (Sep 21, 2004)

My strength increases astound me everyday.  I benched today and started with 265 hoping to get 5, but would have been satisfied with 3... I got 8 easily.  Kept bumping up and on my 4th set, I got 295 for 3, which I have never done.  DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE your gaining strength while on M1T.  I can't wait for my next cycle.  This is insane stuff.  Still no sides at my last week.


----------



## Purdue Power (Sep 24, 2004)

Ok...after all of my success with no sides, I think the worst case scenario is setting in for me.  My right nipple has been sore for the past day or so but I thought it might be from rubbing on the preacher bench.  I have been keeping an eye on it all day, but when I took my shirt of tonight after work, it is a little swollen.  Now it might be from messing with it being paranoid all day checking it, but I don't want to take any chances by letting it be.  I took 40mg of Nolva just now.  I just wanted to know what my options were at this point.
Should I: 1. Dose 40mg Nolva each day and continue on with my last week of M1T (ends this Sunday) and the 2 weeks of 4Derm after that.
2.  Stop with the 4Derm and just keep on with the M1T since the 4Derm aromatizes slightly.
3.  Start my pct now and stop my M1T and 4Derm.
Immediate input is appreciated!


----------



## Purdue Power (Sep 24, 2004)

bump


----------



## Pirate! (Sep 24, 2004)

You are paranoid. Quit playing with it and it won't be inflamed. If taking nolva gives you peace of mind, go for it. Otherwise, keep on schedule.


----------



## Purdue Power (Sep 24, 2004)

It feels like there is an increase in fat deposits behind it too.  So should I just keep with the 40mg Nolva ED and finish my program?


----------



## Pirate! (Sep 24, 2004)

Well, is it really itchy and painfully sore if you press directly on it? I seriously doubt you have gyno. You are probably just bloated from the 4-AD. If you look hard enough for something, you will find it--even if it is not there. Finish the program with the nolva. The nolva should help some with the bloat. Read up on gyno symptoms, but don't start believing you have them just because you are so paranoid. If there is true pain and ichiness, then reevaluate your situation. Gyno from this cycle is extremely rare. I didn't even watch for gyno when I did that cycle. The people that worry and watch the most start to believe they have it. Just like the people who watch the sky all night thinking they will see an alien ship. Eventually, they will believe they saw one.


----------



## redspy (Sep 24, 2004)

Completely agree with Pirate.  There are so many horror stories out there which fan the flames of paranoia in this area.  The PH/PS combo you're using is highly unlikely to cause gyno.  If you're that concerned run Nolva immediately, it's highly effective at dealing with early stage gyno.


----------



## Purdue Power (Sep 24, 2004)

Well, it is only on my right nipple.  Is it possible to get it on just one side or to have the symptoms show up on one side first?


----------



## Pirate! (Sep 24, 2004)




----------



## Pirate! (Sep 24, 2004)

Just kidding. It is possible, but not likely. Does it itch bad, or is it real tender if you press directly on it? Do you feel like watching Titanic and eating a pint of Ben & Jerrys while you cry about your lack of shoes? Run a google search. There are ways of checking for symptoms. I've never had it. I prefer my tits on a hot chick.


----------



## gococksDJS (Sep 24, 2004)

I say wait a few days and see if it subsides. If you play with your nips a lot, they will get sore so just don't tweak them as much, but if your worried run Nolva


----------



## Pirate! (Sep 24, 2004)

Purdue Power, you will look like this tomorrow: http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showpost.php?p=763583&postcount=4


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## redspy (Sep 24, 2004)

His cheerleading lady friend will be really jealous of a set like that.


----------



## PreMier (Sep 24, 2004)

PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> Purdue Power, you will look like this tomorrow: http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showpost.php?p=763583&postcount=4




Sweet jesus!  WTF!?


----------



## redspy (Sep 24, 2004)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Sweet jesus!  WTF!?



When you have boobs bigger than your girlfriend you're in trouble.


----------



## Pirate! (Sep 24, 2004)

Your thread has been hijacked, PP!


----------



## Purdue Power (Sep 25, 2004)

It was paranoia coupled with water retention and fat deposits from my intent bulk cycle.  The soreness stemmed from the preacher bench.  All is well.  Sorry about the spaz and thanks for the help.  Still good gains going.  3 more days on the M1T then the 2 weeks of 4Derm.


----------



## Pirate! (Sep 25, 2004)

I'm not surpirsed, but glad to hear it. Don't forget to post those before and after pics.


----------



## Purdue Power (Sep 25, 2004)

I didn't take any pics, I wish that I would have.  But I have put on about 15lbs and everyone tells me that I am looking thick as hell.  Modesty aside, I am looking pretty freakin huge after this cycle.  I noticed today that a few of my lymph nodes are swollen and my sinus drainage continues, but other than that, no side effects.


----------



## babylon (Sep 25, 2004)

hi all, 
i just read that methyl1testerone and metandrostenolone are drastically simular. Metandrostenolone is the active ingredient of a steroid called Dianabol. The recommended dose for it 40-60mg a day, so I guess my question is has anyone experimented with high doses of m1t? 40mg+?


----------



## Pirate! (Sep 25, 2004)

Whoever reccomended you take 40-60 mg MD a day (if that is what you are saying) is an idot and an asshole for advising people on something he knows nothing about. 40 mg day of dianabol is reasonable, though.


----------



## babylon (Sep 25, 2004)

no i am saying that the active components of dianabol and m1t are very simular. AND SINCE the recommended dose of dianabol is 40-60mg a day, why take such a low dose of m1t?


----------



## brodus (Sep 25, 2004)

Because M1T is a hell of a lot more potent than Dianabol...I'd say 10mg. of M1t = 30mg. Dianabol.


----------



## Purdue Power (Sep 26, 2004)

I had another awesome day from the M1T.  My previous sets for bench when I did 3x5 was using 250.  Today I did 3x5 with 295.  Unfortunately, Mon is my last day on the M1T, then the ~2 weeks of solo 4Derm.  This has been an awesome ride.  Can't wait to do it again.


----------



## firestorm (Sep 26, 2004)

DAMN...  that is awesome!!!  What a drastic jump!!  Gotta love Chemical assistance!!!


----------



## babylon (Sep 26, 2004)

brodus said:
			
		

> Because M1T is a hell of a lot more potent than Dianabol...I'd say 10mg. of M1t = 30mg. Dianabol.



hmmm...then why is dianabol illegal, and m1t is an over the counter supplement?


----------



## Du (Sep 26, 2004)

babylon said:
			
		

> hmmm...then why is dianabol illegal, and m1t is an over the counter supplement?


wait a couple months, it wont be


d-bol has been around forever, it was out when steroids became illegal. m1t wasnt.


----------



## Purdue Power (Sep 26, 2004)

1-test wasn't banned when the steroid ban took effect.  It will be illegal pretty soon though.  Noone has any clue when though.  For the past couple years, everyone keeps saying "it will be in the next couple months", but all those next couple months keep going by and it is still legal.  Last I heard someone say it would be banned by September for sure, by the time the Olympics were going on.  Nope- still here.


----------



## babylon (Sep 26, 2004)

this is sort of off topic. I am thinking of running clen after my m1t cycle as I've heard its key to keeping the gains. Is this true? Will i see decent gains from it as well? From what i have read its pretty safe, and considering its price i dont see a reason not to take it...


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## Purdue Power (Sep 26, 2004)

I am planning on running clen the first 2 weeks of my pct to help get rid of some of my water retention and my fat stores from bulking.  You won't get gains from it, but you will cut down well while you have to keep your food intake up during your pct.


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## Purdue Power (Oct 2, 2004)

How much of my nuts' size should I expect to get back after pct?   I guess this is a sign of how much I am shut down.  I am throwing in some 6OXO while I am on my last 2 weeks of 4Derm to give them a head start before I start the Nolva and Tribulus .


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## Pirate! (Oct 2, 2004)

I wouldn't try to lose fat during PCT. The clen is a great idea to help keep your muscle, but you should be eating bulking, not maintenance, calories. The idea is to keep all the muscle and not put on fat. During PCT--especially the first two weeks--your body's hormonal chemistry is way off. This included cortisol and others, not just test. This imbalance of hormones can put your body into a more catabolic state. Clen is the best way to eat enough to retain your muscles without adding fat. If you try to shed pounds during the first couple weeks of PCT, you could lose a surprising amount of muscle. This was my experience before I knew better. At least wait three weeks into PCT to cut calories down to maintenance, or do it very gradually. Just don't go into diet/cut mode at all.


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## Purdue Power (Oct 11, 2004)

I just started my Nolva yesterday.  The 2 extra weeks of 4Derm went well, but I won't know for awhile if it helps my nuts kick back into gear.  I took 3caps of 6OXO each night while I was on it, just for good measure.  I am doing a 50/40/30/20 dosage with my Nolva, since it is liquid.  I am probably going to start some Clen tonight.  I am going to continue my bulk diet well through my pct and start cutting towards the end of the year.  I am planning on doing my first competition around March.  I will start a Methyl-Dien cycle shortly after the first of the year, probably.  Or once I sit down and figure out all of my timing, I might get another M1T cycle in and wait on the Methyl-Dien.


----------



## Purdue Power (Oct 11, 2004)

And just incase anyone has been living in a hole, the prohormone ban passes the senate and is awaiting being signed into law by the president.  There has been one that wasn't banned, but after reading the entire text of the bill, I don't know which one it is.


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## Pirate! (Oct 11, 2004)

Did you  make any gains over these last 2 weeks? How has the libido been?


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## Purdue Power (Oct 11, 2004)

My size kept going up, but my strength didn't.  My labido was decent, but not as much as it was when I first started.  That was due solely to the fact that my natural test production was still in full swing.


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## Pirate! (Oct 11, 2004)

Size =  acorns, walnuts or eggs?


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## Purdue Power (Oct 11, 2004)

If you are asking how my nuts are doing, they are still markedly smaller.  I am not sure if that is what you are asking, please clarify.


----------



## Pirate! (Oct 11, 2004)

Yeah, that is what I was asking. I didn't have that problem on cycle, but they shrunk during PCT. They didn't hang as low either. I did a little HCG and things were back to normal in no time. I won't touch M1T without HCG in the future. Sounds like you made some significant gains. Good luck with the recovery.


----------



## Purdue Power (Oct 11, 2004)

So I can do HCG after my cycle?  I really know nothing about HCG.


----------



## Purdue Power (Oct 11, 2004)

Well, I just read all about it and know how it works and what it does, but if I need it for...say...rats in an experiment, like with their Nolva, could I get it like that?


----------



## justin22 (Oct 11, 2004)

So you guys are saying if i took m1t..keep in mind im 14 and 1/2 and take Alpha Lipoic Acid for liver protection  i should be ok? what about 60x0 or what ever with just the Alpha Lipoic Acid for liver protection?


----------



## Du (Oct 11, 2004)

justin22 said:
			
		

> So you guys are saying if i took m1t..keep in mind im 14 and 1/2 and take Alpha Lipoic Acid for liver protection i should be ok? what about 60x0 or what ever with just the Alpha Lipoic Acid for liver protection?


Are you serious?


----------



## gococksDJS (Oct 11, 2004)

justin22 said:
			
		

> So you guys are saying if i took m1t..keep in mind im 14 and 1/2 and take Alpha Lipoic Acid for liver protection i should be ok? what about 60x0 or what ever with just the Alpha Lipoic Acid for liver protection?


 I sure hope this is a joke. You really need to wait about 7 years before even thinking about touching something like M1T. It is a pro-steroid. You need to read up on supplements my man.


----------



## justin22 (Oct 11, 2004)

well what about the 60x0 they sell it at gnc? and if i took the Alpha Lipoic Acid for liver protection with that?


----------



## justin22 (Oct 11, 2004)

its better than tons of kids at my h.s including 13 yr oldes injecting it in there ass'es


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## redspy (Oct 11, 2004)

justin22 said:
			
		

> its better than tons of kids at my h.s including 13 yr oldes injecting it in there ass'es



Look bro, just give it up before you do some serious harm.  Just because your 13 yr old friends are screwing themselves up doesn't mean you have to.  Quit the lemming mentality.


----------



## justin22 (Oct 11, 2004)

OK last stuiped ass q. from me..can 60x0 really fuk me up with the Alpha Lipoic Acid for liver protection? i have gone through one bottle of pump tech yea im retarted b.c of mucsletech..and i have gone through one bottle of no2 with no gains!! yes im dumb for buying those but it says must be 18 or older? i took them with no side effects at all?


----------



## Purdue Power (Oct 11, 2004)

justin22 said:
			
		

> its better than tons of kids at my h.s including 13 yr oldes injecting it in there ass'es


Ya, well drinking yourself retarded every day and night is better than smoking crack, but you don't see us advocating here, do you.  Don't touch the shit.  If you learn how to lift and eat right, you will be bigger than any of them on whatever they are on.


----------



## justin22 (Oct 11, 2004)

Ok!!! but would u been kind enough to explain 60x0 to me..? b.c i was really thinkin abuot taking that instead of roids!! so please help me out? if u dont mind


----------



## redspy (Oct 11, 2004)

Taking 6-OXO will do nothing for you whatsoever.  It's designed for kickstarting your testosterone after a cycle of PHs.


----------



## justin22 (Oct 11, 2004)

It wont boost my testosterone at all? i was thinkin about just taking it and not full dose


----------



## redspy (Oct 11, 2004)

Again, it will nothing for you whatsoever, except perhaps upset the balance of your hormones.  At your age your testosterone levels are already high, these type of supplements won't increase those levels.


----------



## justin22 (Oct 11, 2004)

Then whats up with all these kids takin roids and then seein 4 pounds of muscle in one week?


----------



## redspy (Oct 11, 2004)

Well, think about the price of that 4lbs of steroid induced muscle - stunted growth, a limp noodle, liver problems, hairloss, acne, infections from poor injecting hygiene etc etc.  Do you really think it's worth it?


----------



## justin22 (Oct 11, 2004)

no..thats why im tryin to find the safest way with out takin real roids to help me besides protein and creatine


----------



## redspy (Oct 11, 2004)

All you need is a good workout schedule, a balanced diet and adequate recuperation.  Supplements aren't essential at your age.


----------



## Purdue Power (Oct 11, 2004)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> Ya, well drinking yourself retarded every day and night is better than smoking crack, but you don't see us advocating here, do you. Don't touch the shit. _*If you learn how to lift and eat right, you will be bigger than any of them on whatever they are on*_.








			
				justin22 said:
			
		

> OK last stuiped ass q. from me..can 60x0 really fuk me up with the Alpha Lipoic Acid for liver protection? i have gone through one bottle of pump tech yea im retarted b.c of mucsletech..and i have gone through one bottle of no2 with no gains!! yes im dumb for buying those but it says must be 18 or older? i took them with no side effects at all?


O WOW....no side effects at all????   Ya, because there are none...they don't work anyways.  Give it up.  You are just going to keep coming up with stupid ass questions and making it repeatedly obvious that you have no clue what the fuck you are doing.  You won't stop until you hear what you want to hear.  Get the fuck off of my thread!


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## justin22 (Oct 12, 2004)

ok sorry


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## Purdue Power (Oct 12, 2004)

OK, obviously I was way harsh on my last post.  It wasn't all because of you.  I just get tired of so many young guys coming in and wanting to try so many hardcore things when there are so much more basic things that  you can fine tune (diet and workout) that will give you all of the results that you are looking for.  I do appreciate the fact that you are coming here to get info and not just going out and starting the things that you are inquisitive about.  That said....search the site for threads on diet and workout plans.  I guarantee if I knew then at your age what I know now, I would have been a freakin monster on the field and on the mat.


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## Pirate! (Oct 12, 2004)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> you have no clue what the fuck you are doing.  Get the fuck off of my thread!


  Looks like maybe the old natural test production is up and running again. Post Cycle Blues? PCB needs its own sticky!


----------



## Purdue Power (Oct 12, 2004)

Not yet, but I am working on it.  My workouts have been less than desirable and I have been very sluggish the past few days.


----------



## Pirate! (Oct 13, 2004)

Same for me during my first week of M1T PCT.


----------



## Redneck (Oct 13, 2004)

Purdue ...It took me 2 weeks to start feeling good in the gym again when i started my pct after my m1T - 4ad cycle.


----------



## Tha Don (Oct 13, 2004)

justin22 said:
			
		

> Then whats up with all these kids takin roids and then seein 4 pounds of muscle in one week?



WTF has that got to do with you?

if they wanna fuck their bodies up for the rest of their lives let them, at 14 you shouldn't even be thinking about that shit, man!!!!

just eat lots and do plently of cardio and press-ups and sit ups each day

just doing weights before 16 will stunt your growth n' shyt! doing roids before 16 is suicidal!!!!

i'm 20, and i won't touch roids!


----------



## Tha Don (Oct 13, 2004)

justin22 said:
			
		

> ok sorry


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## Luke9583 (Oct 13, 2004)

4lbs in a week is most likely water


----------



## Pirate! (Oct 13, 2004)

Shit, I can put on 4 pound in one meal.


----------



## babylon (Oct 15, 2004)

finishing my m1t cycle in 2 days. The results are awesome - gained 12lbs! How long should i wait before its safe to cut?


----------



## gococksDJS (Oct 15, 2004)

Wait until after you finish PCT


----------



## Pirate! (Oct 15, 2004)

babylon said:
			
		

> finishing my m1t cycle in 2 days. The results are awesome - gained 12lbs! How long should i wait before its safe to cut?


Don't start cutting at all until after 4 weeks of successful pct.


----------



## Purdue Power (Oct 16, 2004)

Ya, I made the mistake on my last 1-TU cycle to start cutting during my pct.  My strength and size went way down.


----------



## Purdue Power (Oct 25, 2004)

UPDATE: I have kept most of my size, minus the constant swell from having so much test and 1-test in my system. My strength has gone done some, for the same reason, but I am still way ahead of where I started. I am on my 3rd week of pct with Nolva. My labido is near normal, but my workouts are still lacking slightly.  Overall, I am having good progress with my pct, doing a 50/40/30/20 dosage with the Nolva.  I stopped my clen after 1 week, because I am too far out of cardio shape to withstand the raised pulse. I was out of breath after one flight of stairs, so I am gonna wait till I do some more cardio before I start another 2 week cycle of it.


----------



## Pirate! (Oct 25, 2004)

Keep cardio at low/moderate intensity on clen or your heart will be very unhappy. No HIIT on clen, IMO.


----------



## Purdue Power (Oct 25, 2004)

Don't worry... I ALWAYS err on the side of caution.  My cardio (clen or not) only consists of about 30min on a stationary bike.  I don't take it to extremes.


----------



## Purdue Power (Oct 30, 2004)

UPDATE: I am near the end of my 3rd week of pct, and my labido is back to normal, if not higher than before.  My test levels are back to normal levels and my workouts are going well.  I still have one more week of Nolva just to make sure everything is good.  I am going to take a ~10week break before I start anything else(equivalent to time on+pct).  I have a MethylDien cycle stocked up for a cutting cycle.  By the time I start on it, the ban will be about in place.


----------



## majorwest (Nov 1, 2004)

This has been a very enjoyable thread.

Thank you PP for your continuous updates and to the others for your frequent input.

Bravo!


----------



## Purdue Power (Nov 1, 2004)

I am just glad that I was able to give something back to the forum.  I have learned so much in the past few months that have helped me along my way so much.


----------



## Pirate! (Nov 1, 2004)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> I am just glad that I was able to give something back to the forum.  I have learned so much in the past few months that have helped me along my way so much.


 You aren't goning to start   , are you? Alright everybody, group hug.


----------



## Purdue Power (Nov 1, 2004)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> I am just glad that I was able to give something back to the forum. I have learned so much in the past few months that have helped me along my way so much.


Ya, pretty fuckin tender, wasn't it?


----------



## Pirate! (Nov 1, 2004)




----------



## JSmall (Nov 2, 2004)

*Water weight ?*

If you have a solid diet and are taking in plenty of water how long does it take after a cycle of m1t/4ad to lose all the water weight you will gain?  Does it come off naturally because you aren???t on the cycle anymore or do you have to wait until after your pct to lower your calories and get rid of it through diet?

Thanks


----------



## Pirate! (Nov 2, 2004)

JSmall said:
			
		

> If you have a solid diet and are taking in plenty of water how long does it take after a cycle of m1t/4ad to lose all the water weight you will gain?  Does it come off naturally because you aren???t on the cycle anymore or do you have to wait until after your pct to lower your calories and get rid of it through diet?
> 
> Thanks


You will piss the water out during the first week of PCT irregardless of diet.


----------



## JSmall (Nov 2, 2004)

PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> You will piss the water out during the first week of PCT irregardless of diet.



Thanks


----------



## Purdue Power (Nov 2, 2004)

But then again, I am still fat from it.  Well not really fat, but moreso than before I started.  I didn't notice much difference in what I thought was water retention after I started my pct, and I am a few days away from being done with it.


----------



## ryank771 (Dec 16, 2004)

Hi Everyone,



After doing some research, and reading up as much as I can --- I've found that people on this site are very knowledgeable about this cycle. Here's a bit of background --- I'm 21 - 140lbs. I haven't gained a pound since HS even though I've been working out for quite some time.  I've taken all kinds of weight gainers, gone on high protein diets, NOx2, creatine fusion, ect. I really would like to try this stack to see if it would work for me. Here is what I'm going to try out based on this thread:



*1 week prior* --- Start 4derm treatment 4 sprays, twice a day

*Few days prior* --- Start taking Alpha Lipoic Acid

*Cycle* *(ONLY 4 WEEK CYCLE!)* --- Take M1T (5mg/day) à

Continue 4derm

1000mcg of B12/day

Lots of Vit C and Echinacea

*After cycle* --- Continue 4derm for 2 weeks

*PCT* - Take Formadrol for 4 weeks after ending 4derm (For the first 2 days, take 60mg/day. For the next 2 weeks, 40mg/day. Last 2 weeks, 20mg/day)



Does this sound okay for a first timer? I don't have access to Nolva, and I was told Formadrol was good enough. Is that a true statement? My main concern is my liver (obviously) because for some time I was a hard drinker due to some personal issues, but have since decided that I'd rather take that time and workout and get some meat on me. My second concern is the test levels. I'm hoping my PCT will push me back to normal.



Any thoughts or criticism would be greatly appreciated.


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## Du (Dec 16, 2004)

Looks good. Id up the M1t levels as you go along, as you see fit. Wouldnt go above 10mg for your size though. As for PCT, formadrol isnt very good, in all honesty. You can just google "tamoxifen citrate" and find Nolva online. Assuming you take milk thistle pre-cycle and post-cycle, your liver will be alright. Also, drink plenty of water, eat right, and DONT DRINK. Proper PCT will bring your natural test back soon enough, especially at 21 years old. 

Im glad you did some research before posting, nice work. Good luck.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 16, 2004)

I would up the dosage as you go. I went as high as 20 mg's ED in my 3rd week, but started to get really foggyheaded so didn't go any higher. Frontloading the 4-Derm is a good idea, but i personally see no reason to continue it for 2 weeks post cycle. You can't start PCT until you are completely off PH/PS's and the gap between when you stop the M1T and when you start PCT could lead to losing a good amount of your gains. I say go with liquid nolva for PCT and have it on hand incase you need to end the cycle abruptly or incase of gyno, which is extremely uncommon with M1T. Definately don't drink while on. M1T is hell on your liver as it is. Make sure to up your calorie intake and train harder because your recovery time will be shorter.


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## Purdue Power (Dec 16, 2004)

Don't go above 10mg/day.  You won't get much more gains at all and will just shut yourself down harder.


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## ryank771 (Dec 17, 2004)

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll be sure to take them into consideration. I'll post my results once I get everything that I've ordered, and I start my training. Hopefully I'll finally see some results!

One more question though --- what's the difference between nolva pills and liquid? Is there any?  Also --- is generic okay.  I found a Canadian site that's pretty cheap.


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## MTN WARRIOR (Dec 17, 2004)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> UPDATE: .  I stopped my clen after 1 week, because I am too far out of cardio shape to withstand the raised pulse. I was out of breath after one flight of stairs, so I am gonna wait till I do some more cardio before I start another 2 week cycle of it.



I have been noticing this same issue but not with Clen. Right now I am way out of cardio shape because for the last few years I have been really focusing on size and muscle.  Every now and then I notice that I am out of breath a little more than usual and inappropriately (ie walking up one flight of stairs).  Now, I dont mean that I feel like a fat man after eating a ham sandwich, but just a little winded.  I have noticed this while on ephedra and gugglesterones and other things that raise the temp.  Is the raise in pulse/body temp etc causing the shortness of breath possibly?


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## Du (Dec 17, 2004)

ryank771 said:
			
		

> One more question though --- what's the difference between nolva pills and liquid? Is there any? Also --- is generic okay. I found a Canadian site that's pretty cheap.


No difference. Just do the math to ensure you get the right dosages. I told you it was easy to find. Generic is great, cheaper, and more common.


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## ryank771 (Dec 17, 2004)

du510 said:
			
		

> No difference. Just do the math to ensure you get the right dosages. I told you it was easy to find. Generic is great, cheaper, and more common.


Woah -- time out. I was trying to find what I needed, and I kept being asked for a prescribtion.  I also got this on a Canadian site (which *still* said I needed a prescription):

*The FDA, due to the current state of their regulations, has taken the position that virtually all shipments of prescription drugs imported from a Canadian pharmacy by a U.S. consumer will violate the law.*  

If any of you recommend a site --- PM me if you would. Wasn't sure if you guys are allowed to recommend sites for Nolva via rules and stuff on this site.


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## Du (Dec 17, 2004)

www.customnutritionwarehouse.com

www.ibenutrition.com or www.ibenutrition.net 


Time in.


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## ryank771 (Dec 17, 2004)

du510 said:
			
		

> www.customnutritionwarehouse.com
> 
> www.ibenutrition.com or www.ibenutrition.net
> 
> ...


Thanks du510 -- much appreciated. I think I may stick with 6-OXO. I may take that as directed (3 capsules a night, with my last meal) so here is my final stack procedure: 

*1 week prior* --- Start 4derm treatment 4 sprays, twice a day

*Few days prior* --- Start taking Alpha Lipoic Acid

*Cycle* *(ONLY 4 WEEK CYCLE!)* --- Take M1T (5mg/day) à

Continue 4derm

1000mcg of B12/day

Lots of Vit C and Echinacea

*PCT* - Take 6-OXO for 4 weeks after ending cycle (3 caps a night, during last meal)

According to bodybuilding.com (which is where I like to purchase most of my stuff), it seems like following the directions should be okay, as opposed to doing like 6 capsules for the first couple days, 4 for 2 weeks, then 3 for two weeks.) I was also considering a few others, but from the reading, 6-OXO is a highly rated choice.

Seriously, thanks to all of you with your insight. I want to get this right to avoid doing any harm to myself.


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## gococksDJS (Dec 17, 2004)

Your gonna need a stronger PCT than 6-oxo with M1T. I would only suggest 6-oxo with 1-AD because you get shut down hard and fast on M1T. Nolvadex is a perscription medication, but it is not illegal to be in posession of a research chemical like liquid nolvadex. most of us on here feed it to mice in order to further research its effects.


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## ryank771 (Dec 17, 2004)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> Nolvadex is a perscription medication, but it is not illegal to be in posession of a research chemical like liquid nolvadex. most of us on here feed it to mice in order to further research its effects.


Interesting -- never thought of that......I have some mice I'd like to test it on  -- is this easy to find? I did a google and it didn't pull anything relevent. And "research" chemicals --- sounds kinda risky. I've read about Tamox on a site -- kinda pricy, but if I only take 20MG a day, it should last me almost 2 cycles.


oh yeah -- the M1T I got was "Higer Power M1T" -- 5mg M1T per serving.  I know there are a lot of different vendors out there --- but this one I thought was pretty good.  Most were 10mg per serving...and like I said, I want to start out with 5mg anyways. Wasn't sure if you guys wanted to know what I was getting.


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## Purdue Power (Dec 17, 2004)

Yes it is easy to find, being as how he already gave you the links to it.  Research Chems are the same thing.  Tamoxifen citrate is Nolvadex and it is not risky.  Almost all of us use them.  You will have to do more then 20mg/day.  You will need to do 50mg/day for the first week and taper down 10mg each week until you do a 4th week @ 20mg/day.  You should have gotten Underground Labs M1T.  It is tried and trued by many of us.


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## ryank771 (Dec 17, 2004)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> Yes it is easy to find, being as how he already gave you the links to it. Research Chems are the same thing. Tamoxifen citrate is Nolvadex and it is not risky. Almost all of us use them. You will have to do more then 20mg/day. You will need to do 50mg/day for the first week and taper down 10mg each week until you do a 4th week @ 20mg/day. You should have gotten Underground Labs M1T. It is tried and trued by many of us.


Yeah, I found it on one of the sites that was supplied to me .  Kinda scary how it says "This product is NOT for human use, this product can be harmful if ingested".  But like I said --- I trust the advise you all have given me, hince the reason I came here to do all my investigating before I started my cycle.  I'll go ahead and get the Tamoxifen Citrate and return the crap that bodybuilding.com sold me.


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## vellanator (Dec 17, 2004)

Just finished reading the entire thread - this helped me out tremendously in a lot of ways... thanks to all who contributed, esp. the originator.

There has already been a group hug, so we can skip that.


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## DemolitionNine (Dec 21, 2004)

Ok....   newbie to these boards.. but not a newbie to lifting. 

I must ask this. 

I'm 19 years old, 178lbs and growing pretty well.  I was 140lbs in August 

Anyway, My goal for now is to bulk up, and then later to cut up. 

I've done ONE cycle of M1t.  I however didn't stack it with anything.  I gained 10-15lbs of hard lean muscle from that cycle.

I still have quite a few caps left, and would like to do another cycle sometime soon.

Lemmie' ask this.  What is PCT, and this 4-Derm stuff?  Everyone is saying to take this PCT stuff after your cycle on M1t. 

I crashed HARD last-time I cycled, for 2 weeks I just felt like killing myself.  How can I avoid that this time around?  I want the gains, but the head-cloudiness, the lathargia, and the sleepiness about drove me NUTS.  I wanted to do nothing but lift, eat, and sleep.

I wanna' gain about another 2-3" in diameter on my biceps, and then lose the fat on my belly.  (the fat I've put on from lifting. I used to be a TWIG).

Any help would be MUCH appreciated.

Thanks guys.

-Matt


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## Purdue Power (Dec 21, 2004)

Well, of all things to not do pct(post cycle therapy) for, M1T would be the worst possible thing.  You are about to be flamed by so many people on this board.  PCT gets your nuts producing testosterone again, which taking M1T shuts down completely.  At that age, you have no business taking any prohormones or the like.


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## DemolitionNine (Dec 21, 2004)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> Well, of all things to not do pct(post cycle therapy) for, M1T would be the worst possible thing. You are about to be flamed by so many people on this board. PCT gets your nuts producing testosterone again, which taking M1T shuts down completely. At that age, you have no business taking any prohormones or the like.


Doh' 


Oh well. 

I guess the harm is already done then....   ......

 

So what to do with the rest of my caps?  

Should I just let my body recover?


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## Du (Dec 21, 2004)

At your age, its not the end of the world. Your hormones should bounce back. But, I wouldnt fuck with it. Dont do it again. 

I'd hang on to the rest for a few years.


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## DemolitionNine (Dec 21, 2004)

du510 said:
			
		

> At your age, its not the end of the world. Your hormones should bounce back. But, I wouldnt fuck with it. Dont do it again.
> 
> I'd hang on to the rest for a few years.


How long are they usually good for?

My bottle is about 1/2 full, and it's the IDS Methyl-1-Test XTreme.  

I'll prolly juss' hang onto it, and continue supplementing with my Protein & Creatine for now.


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## Du (Dec 21, 2004)

DemolitionNine said:
			
		

> How long are they usually good for?
> 
> My bottle is about 1/2 full, and it's the IDS Methyl-1-Test XTreme.
> 
> I'll prolly juss' hang onto it, and continue supplementing with my Protein & Creatine for now.


Keep it in a dry, dark place, tucked away in a corner, keep it sealed, youll be alright for a few years. Put some cotton in the bottle with it. 

As for continuing with protein and creatine, good idea.


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## wannagetbig2001 (Dec 27, 2004)

after reading and re-reading this thread - I will try doing the same as ryank - the ONLY issue I have is I've already bought my M1T and they are 10 mg caps.  so incrementing from 5 to 10  to (maybe 15) wont be possible.  is starting out at 10 mgs of M1T, OK?


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## Du (Dec 27, 2004)

How big are you?

You can always cut them in half with a razor blade.


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## Purdue Power (Dec 27, 2004)

You can buy a pill splitter at WalMart or any pharmacy.  They are only $4 or so.


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## DOMS (Dec 27, 2004)

It is worth splitting a 5mg M1T pill?  That's to say, if you're only taking 5mg/day (first week) is there any benefit to taking 2.5 twice a day?


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## Du (Dec 27, 2004)

cfs3 said:
			
		

> It is worth splitting a 5mg M1T pill? That's to say, if you're only taking 5mg/day (first week) is there any benefit to taking 2.5 twice a day?


If your tabs are 5mg as most are, then no, I wouldnt say its worth it. 

But, his caps are 10mg. I would say that is worth it to split, especially if its your first time.


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## DOMS (Dec 27, 2004)

Thanks.  I plan to start a cycle on January 2nd.  I'll do 5mg on the first week and 10mg for the second and third weeks.


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## wannagetbig2001 (Dec 27, 2004)

OH well - looks like I'm going to have to stat with 10 MGs  (the Gaspari M1T's are in capsules which CAN"T be cut in half!


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## Du (Dec 27, 2004)

cfs3 said:
			
		

> Thanks. I plan to start a cycle on January 2nd. I'll do 5mg on the first week and 10mg for the second and third weeks.


Thats a good first cycle dosage.


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## Pirate! (Dec 27, 2004)

I used 10 mg/caps. Just open them up and split the powder. Worked for me with no problems. If you are only going to take 5mg/day, split it into two 2.5 mg doses. It is worth the hassle.


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## dstack (Apr 8, 2005)

I've been consistantly cycling MT1 since Novemer 2004. I am convinced that MT1 gave me gyno. You would not know I have anything unless you felt around. 

Can Nova reduce and rid of gyno if it has already begun to form? I'm seeing a doctor on Monday about this, and I started a thread about my little problem. 

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=45851&page=1&pp=30


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## Purdue Power (Apr 8, 2005)

For some people, high doses will get rid of it, since there is no more estogen binding to it.  Mine didn't go away, it just stopped being sore and didn't get any bigger.  Even at doses of 90mg of Tamoxifen Citrate, it was still there.  Like yours, you wouldn't be able to tell mine was there unless you felt around.  I was told that after my cycle(injectables) was over, that it would go away.  If you are stacking with 4Derm, that might be what is giving you the gyno, since it has a certain level of aromatization.  You can definately prevent the progression of it with on-cycle Nolva.  Did it form during your cycle or post-cycle?


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## ZECH (Apr 8, 2005)

By taking the 4/ad, he already had circulating estrogen because of the amount of test that aromatized. That is what aggrivated the progesterone/prolactin allowing gyno to start to form IMO.


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## patbucks (Sep 16, 2005)

Hey,
You are all talking about staking many different things while doing M1T. But I'm not sure I get the reasoning behind stacking so much stuff with it?
I would like to do 1 cycle of M1T 2.5mg a day for 2 weeks, and maybe repeating that later.
I don't want to take nothing else with it. Is this dangerous?
What is going to happen to me, if I don't stack nothing with it?

I'm 30, I have been training for 3 years "solid" following a very thigh diet for the whole time. I'm drinking a lot of water, eating 6 times a day, with vitamine and protein supplements. I have done some creatine, but I will stop it when on M1T.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 16, 2005)

The only thing actually "stacked" with it is the 4Derm.  All of the other stuff is vitamins for preventative measures.  2.5mg a day isn't going to do shit for you.  The lowest dose is 5mg.  If I were you, I would do 5mg ED for the first week, then 10mg ED for the second and third week.  You would do good to run some HCG with it, too, to keep testicular atrophy from making a guarenteed appearance.


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## Du (Sep 16, 2005)

But HCG is a lot harder to get. Id recommend focusing more on getting nolva than getting HCG, even though HCG is a great idea as well. 

 Like PP said - 2.5mg wont do much. Start with 5mg ED and work up as you feel OK. I get the best gains on week 3 (out of a 4 week cycle) so at least do that. Be sure to run PCT and take time off between cycles - M1T wreks havoc on your system. 

 Good luck.


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## patbucks (Sep 17, 2005)

OK Thanks,
I'm going to do 5 mg a day. 
2 weeks, I don't want to be shutdown for more then 2 weeks. If I get nothing for this first cycle then I will do something else with the other cycle. 
For only 2 weeks I shouldn't have any testicular problem.

I will take AKA as well for the 2 weeks, 1x1000mg pill per meal.
For the PCT I will just do Tribulus and b12. If I feel very drag down maybe I can see my doctor and ask him to precrib me some prosac... 
Can my doctor prescrib me some noval?

I'm in Canada, can I get noval over the counter?
Do I really need noval for a 2 weeks cycle?

After reading a lot, I think I would be better off with Test enanthate, looks like there is less side effects, and it's less dangerous for me. What's scares me the most is the injection, I'm just scared to make a mistake while doing it... 
How did you guys did it the first time? 
Where you scared?
Did you get somebody else to do it for you?
Did you tell your wife? )


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## Purdue Power (Sep 17, 2005)

You didn't read much past the first page of this thread, did you?  You will be shut down before the first week is over and you will have testicular atrophy at that time.  You won't get enough out of a 2 week cycle.  Go 3-4 weeks.  Secondly, you CANNOT just do tribulus and B12 for post cycle.  You have to use Nolva or Clomid.

One thing that you were right about is that you would be better off to run a cycle of real test.


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## patbucks (Sep 18, 2005)

I did read the whole thread, and a few other thread and a few web pages, but that shit is not ovious to understand... 

Can you show me where I could find information about noval (what to get, how to ingest, when, how much, what it is exactly) ?


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## Purdue Power (Sep 18, 2005)

NOLVA can be found in a research oral suspension on many research chemical sites.  http://www.innovative-research.net/aqs.htm is my favorite.  Tamoxifen Citrate is the chemical name for it.  Dosages for pct are 50/40/30/20mg(starting at 50mg/day for the first week, then dropping by 10mg each week).


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## Tha Don (Sep 18, 2005)

wow, this thread is taking it back a bit, ehy pp, reminissin them PH/PS days..


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## patbucks (Sep 18, 2005)

okok, basicly your saying I should take noval because I will be shot down for too long and I need something to prevent estrogen to get to high in my body during the PCT.

So here is the plan:
1x 5mg M1T for 2 weeks <-- I know it's not much but I don't want to do more.
After That Noval-- How much of it? for How long? When it's liquid I guess you take some drop in your mouth?

I can't believe I could get bitch, from 5 mg for 2 weeks.


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## Tha Don (Sep 19, 2005)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> Dosages for pct are 50/40/30/20mg(starting at 50mg/day for the first week, then dropping by 10mg each week).


.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 19, 2005)

The gyno comes from your estrogen shooting up during pct because you have no test in your system.  It doesn't come directly from the M1T.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 19, 2005)

Ya, YoungD...it is funny for me to read back at all the questions I was asking back in the day.  I have learned so much since then and moved on to bigger and harder stuff.  Those were some of my first posts here.


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## I'm Trying (Sep 19, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> .


Is that David Boston in your Avi D??


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## Tha Don (Sep 19, 2005)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> Ya, YoungD...it is funny for me to read back at all the questions I was asking back in the day.  I have learned so much since then and moved on to bigger and harder stuff.  Those were some of my first posts here.


yeah i know, posts like this 1...



			
				Purdue Power said:
			
		

> So do I start my pct once I stop the M1T or once I stop the 4Derm?


  
how innocent! i know i asked plenty of similar questions back then

and look at us now, kickin it with the big boys, lol


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## Tha Don (Sep 19, 2005)

I'm Trying said:
			
		

> Is that David Boston in your Avi D??


it is indeed, showin off them natural guns


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## I'm Trying (Sep 20, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> it is indeed, showin off them natural guns


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## pnismuscle (Sep 21, 2005)

How does M1T compare to Superdrol?


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## Shalio (Sep 22, 2005)

the M1t Purdue Journal is really interesting for people who want to try M1T.

Just one thing which seems to me weird is to continue 4Derm after the end of your M1T cycle during 2 weeks. 4 Derm is useful during your cycle, but does it change really something to help you to keep you gain or aanything else? 

Isn't it better instead of that to begin directly your pct of nolva?


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## Purdue Power (Sep 22, 2005)

Yes, as corrected later in the journal from the point that you read that, I changed my views and did, in fact, stop the 4Derm at the same time I stopped the M1T and went straight into pct.


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## Pirate! (Sep 22, 2005)

LOL, this is your eternal thread, Purdue. It is interesting how the best way to learn something is to teach others. I bet you don't miss M1T.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 22, 2005)

It was the best thing that I had tried at that point, but I surely don't miss it now that I have moved on. Screw 3 weeks of M1T....15 week test cycles are more like it.


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## gococksDJS (Sep 22, 2005)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> Screw 3 weeks of M1T....15 week test cycles are more like it.


 mmm, I like that.


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## cormudgen (Oct 17, 2005)

Ok,

I am a 21 year old male who just began working out around 8 months ago.  I about 165 pounds with around 11% body fat.  My current max is 200 on bench which has gone up from 135 when I began working out.  I have done differnet creatine as well as many diffrent protein supplements in the past.

I have thoroughly read this whole post and feel I have gained quite the understading.  I  Have acces to IDS's m1t. in 10 milligram capsules. Unfortunately I have no access to any 4derm or 4-ad.  To my undersanding this is only used for balancing out the negative _NON_long term side effects so I should be alright not using it.

I intend to do a 4 week cyle as follows:

Start taking Alpha Lipoic Acid for liver protection a few days before I start.
Take at least 1000mcg of B12 a day to keep my appetite up.
Take insane amount of Vitamin C daily
Continue taking my multivitamin daily.

Week 1 5mg of m1t
Week 2 10 mg of m1t
week 3 10 mg of m1t
week 4 possibly step up to 15 if not making progess still


I will then do a 4 week PCT of USP TAMOXIFEN CITRATE  found here:
http://www.innovative-research.net/aqs.htm
I intend to do 50/40/30/20

Any points tips or things I missed?
Thanks
Mark


----------



## cormudgen (Oct 19, 2005)

any help?


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## CityHunter (Oct 19, 2005)

*not bad*

Yes I think your training is pretty good but you should begin by 60Mg of Tamoxifen citrate especially if you choose to do 4 weeks with M1T.


According to the expert Purdue Power the master of M1T, he advised me to do that

1st week: 60MG
2nd week: 40MG
3rd week: 20MG
4th week: 20MG

I will begin M1T in November we can compare our experience if you want.

By the way, read all the threads in this post you will learn a lot.


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## Pirate! (Oct 19, 2005)

The IDS M1T is good stuff, but you have to open the capsule to do less than 10 mg at a time. 
My advice:
Start with 10 mg/day.
Don't start until you have more than enough nolva on-hand. 
Use the nolva like this 60mg/60/30/30. There is no reason to go below 30 mg/day of tamoxifen citrate.


----------



## cormudgen (Oct 19, 2005)

Sounds good.  Should I degrees the M1t cycle to just 3 weeks since I"m starting out with 10mg a day instead of 5?


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## patbucks (Oct 25, 2005)

Hey, I have done 2 weeks 5 mg of M1T with nothing else, not event post cycle.
I had good gain in strenght, I felt really pumped up during the whole cycle and 1 week after. 
I had no side effect at all, maybe I was a little grumpy that's all...
It has been 3 weeks now since I stoped. 
I do have lot less energy in the gym, I'm still lifting has heavy as when on it, but I'm getting a lot more tired toward the last sets.


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## CityHunter (Oct 25, 2005)

if what you say is true, and I have a little doubt about it.... you are the the biggest idiot of the world and your nuts are going to be in a big trouble, so do your nipples...... And without a proper PCT you're gonna loose all your gains. I don't understand people who have THE perfect way to learn whith this thread and who don't read anything.....

I'm sure Purdue will enjoy your post..... and tell you how stupid you have been!


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## Skate67 (Oct 25, 2005)

CityHunter said:
			
		

> so do your nipples......



uhh i though M1T doesnt aromatize?


----------



## Purdue Power (Oct 25, 2005)

ST240 said:
			
		

> uhh i though M1T doesnt aromatize?


It doesn't aromatize, but when you go off-cycle, your test levels are rock bottom and to compensate for the low levels of hormones in your body, your body pumps out as much of the easiest hormone to produce that it can: estrogen.  This is why a lot of people get gyno post-cycle and not during.

And to the idiot...ya, you are crapping out in your lifting because your body has no test production.  You are going to lose all of your gains.  I am sure that your nipples are looking pretty puffy about right now...maybe even some nice hard balls behind them.  Say hello to gyno, dicknose.


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## patbucks (Oct 26, 2005)

I'm not crapping out in my lifting, I'm still lifting pretty well, I just have less energy.
My nipples are not any different then they were before, nothing has change there...

Maybe your right anyway, I'm an idiot just for trying steroids. 

It wasn't possible to find any pct anyway for me here in Canada. And that's why I did such a small amount 2 weeks on 5 mg  of M1T. And like I was expecting I didn't have no side effect...


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## CityHunter (Oct 26, 2005)

HAHAHAHAHA this is the best joke of the year!!!! Listen to me. I'm a foreign citizen and I was in canada during a couple of months and Canada is the country where you can find all you need the easiest way as possible including Steroids and PCT. Other thing concerning PCT you have apparently internet lol, so it's pretty easy to order nolva whenever you want wherever you are.`

But I think your post is just a fake and nothing more, whatever if you did that I give you the Oscar of jerk


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## patbucks (Oct 26, 2005)

Well I tried to get noval, but the guys were telling me we don't ship to Canada. And I didn't want to ask people in the gym, because it didn't feel right to talk with someone the first time and ask for product like that. I don't know anyone in the gym...

Man you guys are really rude for nothing --- I started to post prior to take the product to know what you guys think. I tried to get noval and it was like no one could help. I figured if I do small amount it shouldn't be that bad. So why so much fuss about that??
Why would I lie? I have been a member of this forum since 2003 and I never lied to anyone. 
You have no reason to get upset, because I didn't follow your instruction. 

I did what I did and it didn't do what you said.

I still have 14 pills that I want to do for 5 mg a day, but I would sure like to find noval this time. Since I still think it will be better for me, enventhough I didn't have any side effect...

An other guy I know did 10 mg for 2 weeks, and he didn't take nothing for pct, and he didn't stack nothing with it. He told me he had lots of side effect he felt really drag down, is 40 years old. He said he didn't have bitch tits but he was really draged down. People do that all the time, no surprise there. I didn't want to do it, because I was well informed, but since I couldn't wait any longer I figured I'll try and I'll see.

Maybe I didn't get nothing, except for the temper change, because when I split the pills of 10 mg to 5 mg I had put more of the filling into some pills...


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## Skate67 (Oct 26, 2005)

bro if you cant get ahold of PCT items, dont even bother _considering_ a cycle.  I had my test/deca and clomid but i didnt put one shot in my leg until i got ahold of my nolva.  If its any consolation im in canada too...


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## cormudgen (Nov 10, 2005)

Ok,

I started my cycle Sunday night.  So far I have taken 4 doses of 10 mg.  I have not been able to work out until the evening(finishing around 8) most days.  I have been waiting and taking the full dose at that point.  Is this OK?

Today is my first rest day, at what point should I take the dose today.

So far I have had no side effects.  My blood pressure went from 122/66 to 136/68.  That is still highly acceptable.  

As far as gains, I have not noticed much yet.  I do feel like my workouts have been slightly easier and I have been able to get slightly larger amounts each time.  This also may be me really pushing myself because I want to believe this stuff is working so bad in my head.  Yesterday I did feel like my pump was a litttle bigger though, and my forearms felt like a rock.


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## Purdue Power (Nov 10, 2005)

You should still split the dose up.  I am assuming that you have 5mg tabs, so take each one about 12 hrs apart.  I never took a dose right before I lifted since it raises your bloodpressure so much.  I usually aimed to get a dose in an hour or so before a workout.

As far as gains, you need to be taking in a lot of food, eating at least 6 times a day.  I would aim for 8 times, if I were you.  You need to push your workouts hard.  Aim for higher weight.  If you put it on there, you will get it.  You will have more control over heavier weight, and those last 2 or 3 reps, you will be able to push through them much easier.


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## Pirate! (Nov 10, 2005)

Expecting noticable gains in under a week in unrealistic.


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## cormudgen (Nov 10, 2005)

The tablets I have are 10mg a piece.  Ist it worth my while to break them apart and do 5mg in the moring and 5 mg after I work out?

I have been eating like a horse.  I'm getting around 3200 calories and proxmimately 250+ grams of protein daily.  This is WAY more than I have ever eaten and it really is a push for me to do so.  

My major question is when should I take the m1 on the rest day? Around middle day?  Also should I breakt the tablets into two and do one in the morning and one after workout?

Thanks


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## Purdue Power (Nov 10, 2005)

You can take it all at once, but it would be better to take it in 2 divided doses.  It would be best to aim to take the doses about 12 hrs apart so that they are evenly spaced.  You can take them at any time, but I wouldn't suggest taking a dose within an hour or so of lifting, because it spikes your blood pressure and you will feel very sick if you try to lift while you bp is so high.


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## cormudgen (Nov 14, 2005)

Ok,

Yesterday was my 7th day of 10mg of M1t.  Since starting I have been ensureing to get the hardest workout in possible.  I have also been averging 240-260 grams of protein a day.

I have felt NO side effects so far.  No headaches, no lethargy, no loss of libidio, no muscle cramps ( i'm eating like 3 bannanas a day ), no itchy nipple, no increased acne.  My blood pressure has not jumped either.  Before I started it was 122/66 and increased to 136/68, still well within a healthy range.

As far as workougts go, I did my normal 8,8,8 of bench increasing each weight by 10 pounds.  I alsmost finished the last set.  This is a big improvement for me.  This was on my fourth day of takign M1.  Saturday I did arms and the swells I got while doing biceps were enourmous in comparison to what I have seen in the past. 

I started out weighing an average of 164-167.  The past two days I have been at 171-172.  

Should I increase my dosage at the beggining of the second week (today) to 15mg of m1t? The pills I am taking are the IDS 10mg capsules.  I'm concerned with breaking them in half and have considered just taking 20mg one day and then 10 mg the next.

What do you think I should increase my dosage too?

Thanks


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## cormudgen (Nov 15, 2005)

Any input

I have decided to not alternate the two pills one day and one the next day. From my understanding it is best to keep my testoterone levels at a consistent level.  If I still have no side effects this Friday I am going to up the m1t to 20mg a day.

Let me know what you think.


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## Pirate! (Nov 15, 2005)

> From my understanding it is best to keep my testoterone levels at a consistent level


Please tell me you don't think M1T provides your body with testosterone. If you are not taking testosterone by injection or transdermal and not using HCG, you have NO TESTOSTERONE right now. I split the IDS caps to half the dose. Took 1 cap in the morning, 1/2 cap at night.


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## NO2 (Mar 7, 2006)

why do you people think m1t is so bad it's not i have taken about 4 cycle with just test boost for a pct and nothing for my liver it's not that bad


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## thepackage (May 17, 2006)

Ok...I have a lot to say here...

First...Hello everyone..alot of informative information from lots of experienced
M1T users..thats great..and thank you for your feedback!!!!
I've been working out for 10 years...I'm no rookie...poound for pound IM as
strong as they come...a little over a year ago I was lifting 275 for 8 easily..sometimes 10..and 365 deep squats...all this at about 6 foot, 190 pounds and no juice..just creatine and the regular stuff..
However..I think the wear and tear of 10 years have been kicking in..my joints hurt..and due to this my strength has declined..altough my size hasnt much..about 185 now..but my bench is down to about 250 for 7..mostly because of joint pain...I probably just neeed to take an extended break but dont want to....Since IM older now Im looking into something to get me back to top form...and have been considering M1T..and you guys have provided a plethora of information....but we could do without some attitude towards questions ....I saw one Canadian posted that he couldn't get his hands on 4-AD and he was practically ripped to shreads...Well guess what boys...I know lots of people in Toronto and Vancouver..and you simply can't get it in this country...suppliers wont send it..and manufacturers that previously supplied it to Canada don't even make it anymore...Dymatize for instance...Also, not everyone knows what all the short forms stand for, if people can go to the trouble to respond and say"Look it Up" in a demeaning tone..they can say a brief word or two to explain what the supplement is...This is a wonderful tool to share a wealth of knowledge...some people on here are allowed to ask there own personal questions pertaining to their cycles, down times, perceived breast growth, etc...So let's not bash anyone for questions asked...every question is a good question, and no one should be scared off because everyone is here for the purpose of educating themselves and reducing risks...I don't think you guys realize what a great thing you've started here with posting this information..take pride in it..share your knowledge and be nice to those less informed because thats half the reason the thread was started in the first place...
Thanks everyone..


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## tryn2getbig (Sep 17, 2006)

Hey all... I know that this thread was started a long time ago and I am hoping that there are still people out there monitoring or following it... I have read through this whole thread and am going to follow one of the other users... But I still have a question...? Here is the cycle...

1 week prior --- Start 4derm treatment 4 sprays, twice a day

Few days prior --- Start taking Alpha Lipoic Acid

Cycle (ONLY 4 WEEK CYCLE!) --- Take M1T (5mg/day) à

Continue 4derm

1000mcg of B12/day

Lots of Vit C and Echinacea

PCT - Tamoxifen Citrate starting out with 60mg then decrementing 10mg per week till I reach 20mg (Should I also go with 4AD through pct?)

Thanks in advance--


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## tryn2getbig (Sep 17, 2006)

The doseage will actually be 10mg/day for M1T


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## Du (Sep 17, 2006)

tryn2getbig said:


> Hey all... I know that this thread was started a long time ago and I am hoping that there are still people out there monitoring or following it... I have read through this whole thread and am going to follow one of the other users... But I still have a question...? Here is the cycle...
> 
> 1 week prior --- Start 4derm treatment 4 sprays, twice a day
> 
> ...




its good to see that youve read through the thread, there is a lot of good info in here.

your plan is solid, but i would suggest amending it as follows:

1. start with 5mg E/D. This is not to assess how you react to the hormone, but rather how you react to the side effects. M1T isnt exactly the friendliest of compounds. If, after a week or so, you feel comfortable, then move up to 10mg ED.

2. Do not take the 4derm during PCT. 4derm converts to an active hormone, and there is no point in post-cycling if youre still introducing exogenous hormones. I would suggest finishing up the M1t and 4derm at the same time, and starting nolva the next day.

You dont mention it but i feel it necessary to: do not drink alcohol on m1t. An occasional beer may be OK, but you really need to consider this month as a non-drinking month. Drink lots of water, your liver and kidneys will be under a lot of strain (youll know what i mean after your first piss while on m1t).  And eat, eat, eat. Eat clean, eat often, eat big. Workout like a madman. These hormones will allow you to recover faster and handle more per day. Make the most of your four weeks on.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 17, 2006)

I'm sorry I wasn't able to get to your email before you ended up posting on here, T2GB.  In your email, you asked about gyno setting in.  There is a chance, though it is very low, that the aromatization from the 4Derm could cause breast tissue growth to occur.  This will be evident by one or multiple hard, grissle-like balls under your nipple.  If this happens, you should start dosing 40mg Nolva/day until it goes away.  It is also possible that they could show up during or after your pct.  In this case, up your Nolva dosage for a few days until it goes away.  You will want to have some extra Nolva around after your pct is done in case it shows up then.

Also,  you should take Milk Thistle to help protect your liver.


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## tryn2getbig (Sep 17, 2006)

Awesome advice guys... Thanks a lot! This is my first time using anything harder than any MuscleTech products so I want to make sure that everything is planned out! Oh, and Du, I don't drink anymore. Plus, where I am currently at there is no alcohol aloud for anyone. 

A couple questions though, for pct, should I cycle through with 4AD? 

Anyone know where I can get the 4AD as well as 4Derm? I have searched for 4Derm and can't find it anywhere.

Thanks again for the advice and I will keep posting my progress as soon as I get everything!


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## Purdue Power (Sep 17, 2006)

You will need to drop the 4Derm at the same time that you drop the M1T.  You don't want to run the 4Derm while you are trying to run your pct.

It has been very difficult for people to find 4AD in any form for quite awhile.  I wish I could help you out on that one.

I am really glad to see that this thread is continuing to help people out.


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## tryn2getbig (Sep 18, 2006)

Since 4AD is going to be pretty difficult to find, do you recommend anything else that I should use for pct? What about the 4Derm, have you any good sites that I might be able to get that?


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## tryn2getbig (Sep 18, 2006)

Sorry for all of the questions... But the 4Derm, I was thinking of E-Form by Dermobolics. Would this be the correct product? It's a topical spray. 

Thanks again for all of your help!


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## Du (Sep 18, 2006)

4derm is now a generic term for a 4-ad transdermal. Any brand would work. 

But PP was pretty clear; 4derm is not to be used during PCT. Its a hormone to be taken on cycle, and not post cycle. 

If you cannot find the 4derm, youll do just fine to run the m1t on cycle, and nolva post cycle.


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## Purdue Power (Sep 18, 2006)

You will need Nolvadex for your pct.  E-Form won't be good enough, in my opinion.  You can get Nolvadex from many research sites, or possibly by contacting Pirate.  He is a supporter of anti-estrogen researchers.


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## Serega (Dec 11, 2006)

I have a question concerning PCT. If I were to use M1T Plex from Promatrix should I use Vitrix with NTS-5 for my PCT or should I still get Nolva or Nolvadex. Thanks.


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## Little_Ste (Aug 19, 2007)

ANyone suggest any suitable alternatives to Nolva as i'm in England and having difficulties finding any. I can find formadrol as previously mentioned or 6oX0. Would either of these be suitable? I plan to be just usin M1T on its own if thats relevant at all.

Thanks

Ste


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## Little_Ste (Aug 21, 2007)

Looks like they can its just the cost. Would formadrol not be suitable for the PCT?

Thanks

Steve


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## Pirate! (Sep 9, 2007)

Bumping this old thread because it deals with a number of questions recently asked on the board. Good luck finding 4-derm, though.


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## serpy007 (Sep 24, 2007)

Hello, everyone i am planning to take m1t and i have researched this topic thoroughly. The only trouble im having is finding PCT supplements. Im interested    in where to find nolva, and 4 derm in canada  and i know that you guys don't recommend any substitution of novla/derm.  Any Canadians that faced this problem??  ..  i dont wanna bite the bullet and take it without pct  ..


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## astro17 (Nov 2, 2007)

hey i live in newfoundland canada and have been trying to get these m1ts for a month now can any1 ship them to me??


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## serpy007 (Dec 4, 2007)

astro17 said:


> hey i live in newfoundland canada and have been trying to get these m1ts for a month now can any1 ship them to me??



I dont thinks its hard to find m1t though !


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## nunya53 (Dec 13, 2007)

Man, I haven't posted on this site in a couple of years...don't know why I came back....anywho, I thought M1T was banned a couple of years back? I just checked my closet stash and I have a several bottles I bought at the end of '04 along with a couple of bottles of M5AA.

If there is a point to my post, I guess it is...was it not banned, and if it was, is the current M1T the same stuff I have from underground labs?

I stopped going to the gym almost two years ago after crashing my M3 pretty bad, but need to get back into it...I'm fat now.
Thanks,

Jerry


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## PreMier (Dec 13, 2007)

m-1t is a banned substance.  so what you have is an illegal anabolic.


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## nunya53 (Dec 13, 2007)

Well, I guess I will have to keep it quiet them...

Once I get myself back in shape, I will have to dispose of it...15 mg at a time....

Thanks for the clarification...

Jerry


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## PreMier (Dec 13, 2007)

yep.  just make sure you use proper pct, and have it on hand before you start.


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## tiger08 (Feb 22, 2008)

I Agree With You


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## Lacks06 (Mar 10, 2008)

Im 20 years of age and im starting m1t with liver pills.. Is there anything else i need to start


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## Arnold (Mar 10, 2008)

Lacks06 said:


> Im 20 years of age and im starting m1t with liver pills.. Is there anything else i need to start



the shit is harsh, I never felt that the sides justified using M1T, have PCT ready, preferably Nolva, how long of a cycle you planning on?


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## PreMier (Mar 11, 2008)

nolva and tormafine..


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## asher (Mar 15, 2008)

*has any body heard of*

advanced methyl technolgies???they make m1t too!!!
but it looks kinda fake!!


and when ur done with the post cycle can i jump back on it..or should i wait???


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## quark (Mar 16, 2008)

asher said:


> advanced methyl technolgies???they make m1t too!!!
> but it looks kinda fake!!
> 
> 
> and when ur done with the post cycle can i jump back on it..or should i wait???



 First it seems you need to do a lot more reaearch on m1t itself. Then, what supps will you be taking on cycle? What do you have in mind (and on hand) for pct? How long of a cycle? How long for pct? The minimum time frame between cycles is generally considered to be the cycle length + the pct length.


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## clayu86 (Mar 16, 2008)

Prince said:


> the shit is harsh, I never felt that the sides justified using M1T, have PCT ready, preferably Nolva, how long of a cycle you planning on?



I ran it when I was 18...very young I know but I was well more educated then a lot of people in this area even by that age by my superiors and people I had access to.  In saying this I do not promote you to use it because it will fuck your liver enzymes up...what I am saying is I would have a physician available if at all possible to keep watch of your liver enzymes....high enzymes while on a synthetic means it is stressing your liver...extremely high means doing damage.  Run no longer than 6 weeks and make sure you get liver support and have a pct together....go into it planned...dont be impulsive bout it...think bout it first and have a good game plane...how your going to prepare, how ur going to do it, and how ur gonna get out of it.  On a side not any synthetic contrary to pop belief...(not just m1t as everybody seems to point out...which is toxic.)... that you intake into your mouth is going to be toxic and stressful to the liver. So this does not only apply to m1t but every synthetic...either way they all fuck with your liver and enzymes...why I know is because I am in the military and I know bout the blood test that happen everyday...


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## asher (Mar 31, 2008)

has anybody heard of 400 test or test 400??
i heard its good stuff!!
i know its some kind of steriod but is it good?


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## asher (Mar 31, 2008)

is this a good stack???
m1t by andro tech...and 4AD abd 1AD....then on my post cycle..some novadex by gaspari and some estrogen blocker ?


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## biggfly (Mar 31, 2008)

Nope


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## asher (Apr 12, 2008)

where can i get some nolvadec??


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## monster16 (Jun 22, 2008)

can you only get novla if you have a prescription? if anyone has any idea where to get please let me know..


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Oct 10, 2008)

My cycle looks like this:

Weeks 1-4 [M1T @ 10MG/ed and 4-AD (oral) @ 1.5g]

Weeks 5-6 [4-AD (oral) @ 1.5g ed]

Weeks 1-6 [HCG @ 500IU ew (250IU twice weekly)]

please critique my PCT, it may be overkill, but I dont want to take any chances and want to maintain as much as possible

PCT [6 weeks]

Day 1-14: HCG @ 1000IU per week ?

Day 1: 300mg Clomid, 60mg Nolva
Day 2-7: 100mg Clomid, 60mg Nolva
Day 8 - 21: 100mg Clomid, 40mg Nolva
Day 22 - 35 (or 42): 50mg Clomid, 30mg Nolva (as recommended by Pirate! to never go under 30mg Nolva ed  )


So? What do you guys think? If I do go overkill, will it hurt maintaining gains? If not, I will just keep taking my Cycle Support during PCT and maybe after PCT as well because of the SERMS.

I may add in Clen to help with the increased calories during PCT to decrease fat gain (Im an endomorph, so I have to be careful). How much above maintenance do you figure I should be eating? Maybe 500 calories?


Thanks again guys!!!


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Oct 10, 2008)

monster16 said:


> can you only get novla if you have a prescription? if anyone has any idea where to get please let me know..



A completely LEGAL and public company will ship Nolva, Clomid and HCG WORLD WIDE. You can get generic or name brand versions too! This is where I get all my PCT supplies without worrying about legal issues or getting scammed or inferior products.

Canadian Online Pharmacy - Safe, Secure, Satisfaction Guaranteed (Again like I said, completely legal)


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