# The Gabriel Method



## ArnoldsProtege (Apr 9, 2010)

Anyone else tried this? My friend recomended it to me after having some great results with it. I have been overweight all my life and I trust the friend, so I dove in. 

I can honestly say its the single best method of diet and health I have ever read. Never have I felt like this that I can remember; even when I was losing weight before, it was a chore, a hassle, a non stop battle of cravings and will power. I got down to 190, my lowest weight to date (since like, grade 8) and over the course of 4 months, a full course load at college, a part time job and financial woes, I gained back almost 25 lbs. That is because I never got past the MENTAL reasons that I was overweight, but that is a lot to get in to. Needless to say I was devastated. It took me over 6 months to get in to that shape, and to go from that to not being able to wear certain clothes was just depressing. I cannot stress how powerful the Gabriel Method can be IF you allow it. 

His method is simple: if your body wants to be fat, it will be fat, and if it wants to be thin, it will be thin. This is just my interpretation, and he has a much more intelligible way of putting it. He also has a strong biochemistry background. His biggest asset though, is his achievement. He went from 425 lbs in 2001 to 180 in 2 years and has kept it off for close to 5 years. He has no loose skin, and did not diet once. He eats very healthy, but as he will explain, his body WANTS to be healthy. He did tonnes of research on the chemistry of starvation, and what causes our body to put on fat. He calls them the FAT programs, or Famine and Temperature, and claims if these programs are on in your brain, it doesnt matter what you do, you will stay fat. You can exercise, eat well, but there will be a binge or a relapse and it is not out of weakness, laziness or stupidity, but that your body is ultimately in control, and if it wants to be fat in order to be safe, there is nothing you can do about it.

Again, I am simplifying. He is also huge on visualization, and his book comes with a cd to listen to at bed. He also recomends meditation, de stressing, positive energy, and is big on eating live, organic foods and taking omega 3 supplements. It is a very Eastern approach, and he mentions energy, vitality, and other "intangible" things that to some may seem like bs. I am very open to that though, and am familiar and open to the Law of Attraction, as illustrated in movies like The Secret and What the Bleep do we Know, and the premise that our thoughts and emotions have an energy to them. His method is programming your subconsious mind to WANT to be thin, so that your body takes control. It craves live, healthy, organic, vibrant foods, it has a strong desire to run, to jump, to get to the gym and destress, or jsut head to the park and sprint. Once you program your brain, rewire it so to speak, weight loss is effortless and acheiving your ideal body, without dieting or struggling, is attainable. 

This post may be long, and muddled, and will most likely not do Jon Gabriel justice. I am hoping that a few people who have struggled with weight and obesity will check it out, with an open mind, and change their lives. I cannot stress enough how good I feel, and how I am finally in control of food. I never, in my 20 something years of conscious life, have been truly in control until recently. 

check out the site, thegabrielmethod.com, and there is also a good torrent on Download music, movies, games, software! The Pirate Bay - The world's most resilient BitTorrent site called The Complete Gabriel method. I originally dled it, but am ordering a CD from the site instead of downloading it because I truly beleive in the value he is giving, and it has literally changed my life. Its a completely different approach then I have ever seen, and I say that in the best way possible. It is not just about fat loss, its about living the best life you can live. 

I feel like I should end with a "God Bless You" due to my zealousness; I sound like a religious fanatic. But its just so beneficial in all areas of life that I wanted to share it, with hopes that even a few others, like myself, the people on the fence, who still have the occasional staredown with a slice of pepperoni pizza despite their fitness progress, will change their lives.


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## MyK (Apr 9, 2010)

the delusion of god has done more retardation to the advancement of the human race than anything


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## Phineas (Apr 12, 2010)

It's true that the brain is a tremedously powerful tool, and can, to a degree, produce physiological reactions. Studies have shown that visualizing in great detail a physical obstacle you want to overcome will help you reach that goal. For instance, (and, I have successfully used this method) let's say you can normally squat 225 for 8 or 9 reps, if you really push. By visualizing yourself effortlessly squatting 225 for those 10 reps your brain can actually compensate by helping you push harder than normal because it thinks it just did that. You're tricking your brain to work for you. Supposedly, visualizing weight lifting even outside of the gym is believed to stimulate muscle fibers and potentially result in some minor supplementary tissue development.

However -- and, this is a glaring exception -- the brain won't make those changes without the weight lifting itself. Visualization won't make you ripped; it will only augment an already intense program. Likewise, visualizing you're thin won't make you lose fat. It might help you stick to healthy diet better, as you might begin to feel inclined to the healthy lifestyle. Nevertheless, consistent, healthy diet is what will lead to fat/weight loss.


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## MyK (Apr 12, 2010)

neuroscientits claim that we currently only use 10% of the brains potential


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## Marat (Apr 12, 2010)

MyK 3.0 said:


> neuroscientits claim that we currently only use 10% of the brains potential



This is ridiculous and false.


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## MyK (Apr 12, 2010)

m11 said:


> This is ridiculous and false.


 
why?


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## Marat (Apr 12, 2010)

It's a popular myth propagated usually by individuals that work in ESP, hypnotism and fields of that nature. Actually, by throwing in the word "potential", you are altering the myth a bit, but it's still the same idea. Any sort of analysis of a PET or CAT scan of a human brain will dismiss the myth. A quick Google search will surely give you a more thorough answer.


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## MyK (Apr 12, 2010)

I'm sorry, what I meant to say is:

"God claims that we currently only use 10% of the brains potential"

there. is that more believable now?


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## OfficerFarva (Apr 12, 2010)

MyK 3.0 said:


> I'm sorry, what I meant to say is:
> 
> "God claims that we currently only use 10% of the brains potential"
> 
> there. is that more believable now?



No, its even less believable now.  Why not give us some solid references for these ridiculous claims you've made?


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## MyK (Apr 12, 2010)

LikeARock said:


> No, its even less believable now. Why not give us some solid references for these ridiculous claims you've made?


 
god said!!

you just have to have faith....

if you don't have faith you're pathetic!


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## OfficerFarva (Apr 12, 2010)

MyK 3.0 said:


> god said!!
> 
> you just have to have faith....
> 
> if you don't have faith you're pathetic!



Well as long as God says so it must be true..


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## MyK (Apr 12, 2010)

LikeARock said:


> Well as long as God says so it must be true..


 
your blind obedience is appreciated. now can I have some money?


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## OfficerFarva (Apr 12, 2010)

MyK 3.0 said:


> your blind obedience is appreciated. now can I have some money?



Will it guarantee a place in Heaven?  If so will I also be able to buy some spots for deceased friends and family as well?


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## ArnoldsProtege (Apr 12, 2010)

I agree that you cannot sit on your ass, eat shit all day and expect to get your "ideal" body. However, since I have started utilizing everything he mentions, his "method" so to speak, I have noticed unbeleivable results that I have never had in my life. It is truly like a switch went off in my head. For anyone who is or has ever been fat, or has had that unhealthy, emotional response with food, you know what I am talking about. Its gone. Entirely. I HAVE been eating very healthy, and I enjoy everything I eat. I HAVE been working out often and hard, exercising, sprinting, going for jogs, playing sports, and I have loved every minute of it. It is truly effortless, wich happens to be a mantra he suggest repeating to yourself while in an alpha brainwave state (weightloss is effortless, my body is naturally thin, etc).

I have been following his method for about a month now and have noticed incredible results. Like, I honestly cannot say enough about this idealogy. It is a very Eastern approach, and I have been meditating every day for as long as I can, I take every oppurtunity to walk in the sun and just close my eyes, breathing in deep. When I see a field I just want to run, sprint as fast as I can for as long as I can. I had a beer the other day and it repulsed me, and I LOVE beer. Well, loved I suppose. I just have no desire whatsoever to drink it. I also used to LOVE pizza, and I mean love. It was probably my worst enemy for awhile, and I have had 0 cravings. That is by far the biggest difference; before, I didnt eat it because I knew I shouldnt, but the desire was still there. Now, the thought of putting unhealthy food in my mouth is repulsive to me. 

I have been eating tonnes of fruits and veggies, and they taste so good to me. Apples are one of my new favorite foods. I bite in and taste everything fully, chewing it slowly until it almost liquefies in my mouth. That is huge as well, for anyone; eating slowly. Every naturally thin person I know eats very slowly and chews their food thoroughly. I used to watch my cousin (who is naturally lean and fit) eating icecream, pizza, cake as if he was indifferent, like he didnt care, while I would get wide eyed at the idea of all these delectable foods and inhale them, going back for more. He just didnt give a shit about it, and ate when he was hungry, and stopped when he was full. He still does, and I get it now. I had some serious mental roadblocks in my head that were keeping me fat. Gabriel identifies all possible reasons, and helps eliminate them. 

This is not for everyone, though. If you are close minded, generally skeptical person who finds the ideas of "energy" or hypnosis,the power of the subconsious mind and the idea of daily meditation and visualization to be silly, pointless or nonsense, obviously this approach will not work for you. If, however, you are open minded, welcome new things, have an eastern way of looking at things (zen, positivity, tai chi, energy transfer, etc.) then this can change your life. I am dead serious. 

Even if you do not download the cd, or read the book, just practice visualization every night. Get a picture of your perfect body, the body that if you could ask a genie to give you and in a snap you would be it. Keep it on your nightstand and look at it for a few minutes every night. Then, as you go to bed, imagine the day ahead. Imagine waking up when you want to wake up and feeling fresh, energized and ready to go. Imagine performing all the positive habits you want to instill, like going to the gym and having a great working, going to the park and sprinting and eating fresh, healthy, whole foods and imagine the day going exactly how you want it. Then imagine your perfect body. Imagine yourself playing a sport, or at a beach, and take in everything around you; the sights, the smells. Imagine how good you feel to be in your ideal body. Picture it as strongly as you can, and think of all the positive empotions and reactions you will enjoy as a result of it. Imagine working out with your ideal body, going to the park and playing sports, swimming. Reaffirm that weightloss is effortless, and that through the power of your mind you can create the body you desire.

^follow that type of thinking every night as you fall to sleep and I gauruntee you will notice positive results in your life. I literally am waking up every day at 8 o clock without an alarm, its insane. The power that our subconscious mind holds is truly remarkable. Even if you are already fit, visualizing before bed works great for all areas of your life.


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## DiGiTaL (Apr 12, 2010)

Laws of Attraction is indeed an interesting topic


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## danzik17 (Apr 12, 2010)

Yes, I do keep visualizing Jamie Eason walking into my room in lingerie, but sadly it has not happened.  Yet.

But what you describe is pretty much goal-setting from the sounds of it.  You decided that you want your ideal body more than you want a slice of pizza or a beer.


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## ArnoldsProtege (Apr 12, 2010)

I had a goal before, too. I always have goals. But a goal is a conscious choice. 

When something is subconscious though, it is different. It transcends goals and moves in to the realm of belief. It is through subconscious programming that weight loss has been effortless for me, not from goal setting.

This method is targeted towards people who have struggled with being fat their entire lives. It is one thing to have a few extra lbs that have accumulated from poor eating habits and too much beer; it is another to struggle with obesity, emotional eating and mental limiting beliefs.

Goals can be reached, then what? Most people gain back some or all of the weight lost by dieting, as in, eating certain foods and restricting others. This is a problem, as most do not stay on the diet forever and in turn, regress. The beauty of this is that you are literally programming your brain to have the kind of beneficial beleifs about food and fatloss that you want in order to reach your ideal body and live a healthy, vibrant life. Diets never work in the long term for people who have suffered from obesity, or any other emotional or mental eating. Look at Oprah for godsake. If THAT woman is gaining kilos back and getting fat, with all the resources she has to lose weight, then there IS something to the mind/body connection.  The Gabriel method just utilizes that.


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## Merkaba (Apr 12, 2010)

Sounds like just another system that over-complicates weight gain and weight loss in an attempt to sound like it has the answers in a multi billion dollar industry.  Oprah?  Shit she's always trying some kinda "name brand diet"....That shit NEVER works.  
I agree though, some people need a different approach.  But how many people that live in the woods need to visualize or meditate to be fit.  We sit on our asses waaaaay more than we are desinged to, and our food is devoid of nutrition, bottom line.  
Good luck...whatever luck is.


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## rubika (Apr 12, 2010)

Great method and great efforts.
I like this.
Useful for all.
thanks.


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## jmorrison (Apr 13, 2010)

I thought this was spam at first, but it is interesting stuff.  Was good for printing out and reading on the shitter at work anyway.   I even practiced the visualization while defecating.  Was a world-shattering experience.  Thank you OP.


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## ArnoldsProtege (Apr 13, 2010)

@Merkaba, it seems that way, and the fact that it comes up as a google ad makes it seem like a scamish type of thing, but it does anything but complicate weight and fat loss. In a nutshell, JG explains how our bodies decide what they want. If we activate the F.A.T programs (famine and temperature), then our body wants to preserve fat to make us safe. These can be activated by a number of factors, such as stress, improper sleeping patterns, an emotional tie that fat=safe, mental reasons... he looks at all possible reasons our bodies would WANT to be fat, and helps eliminate them. He has a biochemistry background, and he goes in to the specifics of what takes place in our body when it goes in to starvation mode. 

Like I said, I see it as the single best method of fat loss for PREVIOUSLY OR CURRENTLY FAT people. People who have struggled with weight, or currently struggle with it, and have a different relationship with food then most people. This is by no means a muscle gaining program, and is designed at overall health, fitness, and having a healthy relationship with food. Hardgainers, ectomorphs looking to gain some lbs of muscle, or douchebags like jmorrison are not who it is aimed at.


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## danzik17 (Apr 13, 2010)

Sorry, but as a former fatty I disagree.  The thing that will make you healthier and leaner is knowledge, not prayer.  I can visualize all I want, but if I don't know how to diet and train then it's a waste of time.

And about goalsetting - if you reach your goal and don't know what to do next, then you're not doing it right.  You should always have some goal beyond what you're at.  If you're at 10% bodyfat, go for 8%.  If you can finally bench 300, go for 400.  In the end it's you making the decisions for yourself, not your body.


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## Merkaba (Apr 13, 2010)

ArnoldsProtege said:


> @Merkaba, it seems that way, and the fact that it comes up as a google ad makes it seem like a scamish type of thing, but it does anything but complicate weight and fat loss. In a nutshell, JG explains how our bodies decide what they want. If we activate the F.A.T programs (famine and temperature), then our body wants to preserve fat to make us safe. These can be activated by a number of factors, such as stress, improper sleeping patterns, an emotional tie that fat=safe, mental reasons... he looks at all possible reasons our bodies would WANT to be fat, and helps eliminate them. He has a biochemistry background, and he goes in to the specifics of what takes place in our body when it goes in to starvation mode.
> 
> Like I said, I see it as the single best method of fat loss for PREVIOUSLY OR CURRENTLY FAT people. People who have struggled with weight, or currently struggle with it, and have a different relationship with food then most people. This is by no means a muscle gaining program, and is designed at overall health, fitness, and having a healthy relationship with food. Hardgainers, ectomorphs looking to gain some lbs of muscle, or douchebags like jmorrison are not who it is aimed at.



Well you know I had to take one of my smart ass jabs at it.  I didn't google it but it sounds like everything else at first.  I might get around to reading up on it though.  I hate stuff that has stuff like F.A.T and catchy stuff in it, it screams sell to me.  Thats ok in general because he is trying to sell something.  And as I always say, i'd do it too if I had the opportunity.  

But I do agree, and tell people quite often, especially females, that the average person's body may not want to get super lean, and yes stress plays a big role in that, including workout stress as touched on earlier.  

...douchebags...lol...


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## ArnoldsProtege (Apr 13, 2010)

Danzick, it is not just about prayer, or visualization, or meditation, but about real life implementation of healthy eating and training. Do you really think that every overweight person is completely oblivious to what they are doing? Many people ARE very educated on fat burning, weight training and fitness but they are still overweight. Gabriel addresses the deep, underlying issues that may be keeping people fat. I lost a lot of weight and was in really good shape for awhile, I knew everything I could know at the time about fat loss, metabolism, hormones, training methods, sleep patterns, everything to lose bf and maintain a good body. When I went off the diet though, because it is hard and probably unhealthy to stay on a "diet" forever, and when new stresses came added to my life, I regressed and gained the weight back over a period of 4 months. I am not saying everyone does, but a large portion of people who do lose weight when they have not addressed the psychological and possibly physical reasons they are overweight, will gain it back.

I honestly do not know how anyone can be against this way of thinking. No one is saying to just sit on your ass and pray your way to a ripped body. It is addressing the mental, emotional and physical reasons as to why your body may be overweight, and creating new and positive beliefs and habits about weight loss, eating and life. 

Definitely read up on it Merkaba, it is relatively new and I think it is going to be big. His book is a national best seller, and on the forums there are thousands of people who swear by it, and some who it has truly changed their lives. It is very holistic, "new age" if you want to call it that, but it is truly remarkable how powerful it can be if you let it. 

I have recommended this to 5-6 people in my life who are overweight or struggle with their weight and every single one of them has told me it has helped them unimaginably. If people don't care, or are skeptical and think its bullshit, I couldn't care less. But there are people it can truly help, and those are the ones I want to show this to.


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## Charter (Apr 14, 2010)

Brain-washing yourself into losing weight is probably not very good for anything other than losing weight. 

Belief is the death of intelligence. 

The reason why people continue to eat in an unhealthy manner is because they're addicted to food. My opinion? This works only insofar as meditation, prayer,therapy etc work in curing drug addicts. 

The problem with people who suffer from addiction is that they readily swing from one belief to the next to get the high. 

Basically, what I'm saying is that there isn't that large of a difference between the person who  avidly pursues eating, drugs, lifting-weights, playing video games etc.

Altering preconditioned patterns of behavior is fine, but let's call it what it is.

Rather than reconditioning your belief system, how about you step outside of it, and realize from an objective viewpoint that losing weight is as simple as energy in, energy out. Anything and everything beyond that is a story you made up to entertain yourself.


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## ArnoldsProtege (Apr 14, 2010)

Belief is the death of intelligence? You mean to say that all beliefs that cannot be proven are anathema to any form of intelligent thought? The entire basis of scientific analysis is that of hypothesis, a "belief" in an idea or theory, and then doing research to prove or disprove it. 

 Obviously you have not researched your opinion (though that's the great thing about opinions, isnt it? no merit needed!), or else you would have found piles of evidence suggesting that meditation, prayer and hypnosis IS beneficial to many, many forms of therapy. The power of the subconscious mind is remarkable and those who capitalize on it, and try and understand and make it work for them instead of against them, are at an advantage.

There is also a large body of evidence supporting the idea that it is NOT just as simple as energy in energy out. Gary Taubes book Good calories, Bad Calories is a good counter to the "energy in, energy out" argument. There is a lot more to it then just that. I am not saying that the amount of calories you consume is unimportant, but there would be a signifigant chemical and hormonal differnece in your body if you consume 3500 calories of carbohydrate vs 3500 calories of fat and protein. Then again, you do not seem like much of a reader.

People who are not open to this will never benefit from it. The same people who scoff at people who meditate and find it wishy washy are often the people tensed up and honking the horn in the middle of a traffic jam. It is a beleif that benefits myself tremendously, as well as anyone who can accept the fact that our minds are incredibly powerful and capable of helping us achieve whatever we want. 

Belief does not kill intelligence, ignorance does.


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## Charter (Apr 15, 2010)

ArnoldsProtege said:


> Belief is the death of intelligence? You mean to say that all beliefs that cannot be proven are anathema to any form of intelligent thought? The entire basis of scientific analysis is that of hypothesis, a "belief" in an idea or theory, and then doing research to prove or disprove it.
> 
> Obviously you have not researched your opinion (though that's the great thing about opinions, isnt it? no merit needed!), or else you would have found piles of evidence suggesting that meditation, prayer and hypnosis IS beneficial to many, many forms of therapy. The power of the subconscious mind is remarkable and those who capitalize on it, and try and understand and make it work for them instead of against them, are at an advantage.
> 
> ...



I never said prayer, meditation, and hypnosis weren't valuable methods of therapy.

I merely stated that their effectiveness in food addiction therapy could be likened too their effectiveness in smoking addiction, drug addiction, etc.

Energy in, Energy out. Take in less then you put out, and you lose weight. Everything beyond that is a story you made up to entertain yourself.

Belief systems are ignorance. Belief does not equate to truth. 

Who is the Master that makes the grass green?

It's funny that you say that I haven't researched my own opinion, but in reality you still haven't realized that the map is not the territory.


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## ArnoldsProtege (Apr 16, 2010)

Charter said:


> Energy in, Energy out. Take in less then you put out, and you lose weight. Everything beyond that is a story you made up to entertain yourself.



Read Good Calories, Bad Calories, or at least research it (or anything for that matter). Gabriel Method too is a well researched, well put forth book that dispels the idea that it is entirely calories in v.s calories out. There is a lot of current information out there saying there is much more to it then that. The old idea that if fat people just ate less, they wouldn't be fat is really getting dated, and there are so many factors to take in to consideration, like the way your body reacts to certain nutrients, the hormonal and chemical effects of food that varies in different people. 

Gabriel takes a holistic approach to fat loss, and asserts that if you're body wants to be fat (he goes on to explain the chemical, hormonal, psychological and physical reasons why your body would equate fat with safety) then it will do everything in its power to make you fat, which makes perfect sense if you take into account why humans carry body fat in the first place. Ask any health expert, our brains are still stuck in hunter gatherer mode. It WANTS to hold on to extra fat to keep us SAFE, from famine and cold temperature. It's sole purpose is survival, and it will do anything it can do reach that goal. There are so many factors in the modern world besides tigers chasing us and unbearably cold, food-less winters that our body can only interpret as stresses concerning our survival and trigger your body to store fat, establishing a metabolic "set point" that your body decides is ideal for survival.

You can choose to ignore the mental power we are all capable of. If more diet, training and exercise programs, or anything for that matter took the subconscious and the power it holds over us in to account, things would be so much easier for everything. Almost all success literature nods to the idea that our thoughts form our reality. Take a look at the top humans in almost any field or venture and you will notice a trend among the way that they think.


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## Charter (Apr 17, 2010)

ArnoldsProtege said:


> Read Good Calories, Bad Calories, or at least research it...



I haven't disagreed with you once.

I merely made the point that the methodology is inconsequential.

At the end of the day you can argue every variable, and create ever connection possible in defense of your position, but the truth is that things that operate within our physical reality operate based on a set of natural laws.

My opinion is that many people read to much into the methodology looking for some kind of "answer" to their problems when for most (barring actual biological impairments) it's as simple as eating less, and exercising more.

It's a simple as that.

I get the sequence of events, but you apparently don't.

Reason a Person is Fat + Fixing of this reason =/= skinny person

The equation is always as simple as

Person is fat + Eatingless/Workingout = skinny person

People are fat for a whole host of reasons. Many not because of any reason having to do with anything in the "Gabriel Method".

What then is their solution?

Oh yeah, the same as everyone else, eat less, exercise MOAR.


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## fufu (Apr 17, 2010)

Charter said:


> I haven't disagreed with you once.
> 
> I merely made the point that the methodology is inconsequential.
> 
> ...



The method of weight loss is easy to understand, but practicing it is often not. People need to develop meaning in order to engage in action and change. If there is no meaning, there is no motivation. 

Humans have mystic tendencies, we develop unsubstantiated beliefs. Everyone does. To ignore that completely and base all actions of verifiable evidence is to deny your own human nature. 

I am not asserting that everyone should throw out science and logic and become mystics, but accepting and understanding* the faith based tendencies we often develop is important in order to understand one's self. The man who holds knowledge of himself can apply his will confidently and contently. This applies to weight loss. 

*Not necessarily believing. 

I am also not implying that fervent belief will change any physical laws of reality, but I am implying that belief in the unverifiable can change the behavior of man, a behavior that is largely subjective. Our behavior is only partially dictated by what we perceive from the objective external reality. The internal reality, which runs wide and deep in subjectivity, also dictates our behavior. Ignoring this duality of human nature isn't wise. 

I'll end in saying I have never heard of the Gabriel method and I am not supporting it.

My main point is you can throw logic and reason at an individual, but if he/she in their own subjectivity cannot find meaning, there is no point to engage in action. To engage in behavior will no meaning is a sort of death of human nature.


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## Charter (Apr 18, 2010)

fufu said:


> The method of weight loss is easy to understand, but practicing it is often not..



In advance - TL;DR

I agree, but it's also important for me to offer at least an alternative perspective on the matter, and to back said alternative with sound logic and empirical evidence.

Basically, my assertion has been that most psychological disorders behave in like but to varying degrees when influenced by external and internal catalyst.

Yoga,Prayer,Meditation,Hypnosis,Talk Therapy are methodologies which employ both in the hope of coming to a more let say... sane perspective.

Often the initiation of this process is something of a more superficial nature such as wanting to lose weight, wanting to quit smoking, wanting to stop drinking or drugs, wanting to stop feeling depressed.

All expressions of more base problems within a person. Oral fixation, repressed trauma, etc.

While causality certainly plays a role here I think the "Gabriel Method" is exactly what I said from the start - brainwashing. Throw in some voodoo reasoning, mix in some psychoanalytical technique, and then let people do what they already know how to do which is eat less and exercise more and then claim supreme understanding. Solid technique - works well on dummies I bet. 

That being said -

I would also say that their is no such thing in my opinion as an objective reality apart from the observer.

As it is impossible for anything within the Universe to get outside of the Universe so as to look back at the Universe I find it very unlikely that any person at any level of consciousness can say that they have a way of quantifying an objective reality. 

Therefore, I agree that everyone is stuck within their own subjective perspective influenced in part by nature and nurture, but that doesn't preclude one perspective from not being wider than the other.

We often think of some of the more ignorant people we meet as narrow-minded, and having "tunnel vision", but in reality we all have tunnel vision. Some more so, some less so. 

I also agree that changing someone's beliefs by attempting to change their logic and reasoning has been proven to be futile. The alternative method is of course long term degradation of their belief system (which happens naturally, as people are apt to change dramatically over the course of their lives), but that would be an abuse of the person in what could be the worst possible way. There is much unforeseen consequence in tampering with another persons base psyche without proper instruction from a trusted individual who is giving personal care to each individuals specific case.

I don't see that in this case at all, and it's kind of disturbing.


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## fufu (Apr 19, 2010)

Charter said:


> In advance - TL;DR
> 
> I agree, but it's also important for me to offer at least an alternative perspective on the matter, and to back said alternative with sound logic and empirical evidence.
> 
> ...





I understand that it is really impossible to see an objective world in isolation. The only consciousness we've ever known is our own, we don't know what the physical world exists like outside ourselves. Therefore we can only quantify it with our personal scope.

However, there is a relative objective reality that exists with everyone's personal scope, regardless of semantic or perceptual differences. Gravity effects us all, water is always two hydrogen and an oxygen. I know you are aware of this, but I am rounding off my point. I never implied that we can have "the eye of god" when it comes to knowing reality. 

But yes, I agree we only know what we can sense, or build things to sense, we can unlikely know what the universe exists as ultimately. 

And yes, I agree we are all subjects of our own biases, of course. 

I also agree that drinking the kool-aid and subscribing to a guru is not healthy. People need to trek the hard and lonely road in developing beliefs individually and not have someone impress their own fantasy world upon them. People submit their skepticism far too easily when it comes to dieting and training. 

The phenomena still exists though, people's motivations and emotions can be largely shaped by seemingly meaningless rituals and practices. It is something worth looking into rather than ignoring as mere ignorance or superstition.

BTW, what does TL;DR stand for?


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## cheappinz (Apr 19, 2010)

The guy found a program that works for him.  Good for him.  It was just a nice thing to do--to try to share his positive results and enthusiasm.  
Everyone is unique and has their preference of how they like to live, how they like to learn.  If this technique isn't harmful, and takes a previously obese person from dangerously fat to above average and fit, then great.  I'm glad for him.   
We all know food and exercise are what makes a body.  Who cares what motivates you into doing what is best for your body?  I don't.  

And look at this man's age.  He's 19.  Give him a break and don't ride him so hard.  He's young and needs guidance not negativity.


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## Charter (Apr 20, 2010)

fufu said:


> I understand that it is really impossible to see an objective world in isolation. The only consciousness we've ever known is our own, we don't know what the physical world exists like outside ourselves. Therefore we can only quantify it with our personal scope.
> 
> However, there is a relative objective reality that exists with everyone's personal scope, regardless of semantic or perceptual differences. Gravity effects us all, water is always two hydrogen and an oxygen. I know you are aware of this, but I am rounding off my point. I never implied that we can have "the eye of god" when it comes to knowing reality.
> 
> ...



Too Long, Don't Read!

I agree that it's something worth looking into. In fact it's the entire reason for my posting. 

Belief is ignorance in action. Belief is the death of intelligence. I know my post may seem roundabout, but that's only because the first couple of post I made in this thread were succinct and to the point of what I had to say.

"All phenomena are real in some sense, unreal in some sense,  meaningless in some sense, real and meaningless in some sense, unreal  and meaningless in some sense, and real and unreal and meaningless in  some sense." - R.A.W.

Anyway, I diverge. Losing weight is important for people who are unhealthy due to their weight. This at least we can agree on. Whatever is necessary to that end is fine I suppose as long as it doesn't harm others.


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## fufu (Apr 20, 2010)

Charter said:


> Too Long, Don't Read!
> 
> I agree that it's something worth looking into. In fact it's the entire reason for my posting.
> 
> ...



"Belief is ignorance in action. Belief is the death of intelligent."

I agree in a large sense, but I believe it would be better understood if expounded upon further. I think those phrases can sound a bit chauvinistic without more explanation of their meanings. 

Belief, as a mechanism of terminal understanding, is ignorance in action. Meaning, the moment you stop further investigations because you think you have it all figured out, is the moment intelligence and critical thinking goes into submission.

Ok, I'm done!

Calories in versus calories out!!! I'm going to go eat a cookie now.


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## Charter (Apr 20, 2010)

fufu said:


> "Belief is ignorance in action. Belief is the death of intelligent."
> 
> I agree in a large sense, but I believe it would be better understood if expounded upon further. I think those phrases can sound a bit chauvinistic without more explanation of their meanings.
> 
> ...



You hit the nail on the head. I could have and would be willing to expound further, but I mean...it's a internet bodybuilding forum so...yeah.

Explaining the failings of semantics and symbols with semantics and symbols is difficult to say the least, but it's the only avenue available. 

The map is not the territory.


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## piratedebo (Apr 20, 2010)

MyK 3.0 said:


> neuroscientits claim that we currently only use 10% of the brains potential



Today's christians are averaging 5% use of their brains while catholics are still down to 2%..


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## fufu (Apr 20, 2010)

Charter said:


> You hit the nail on the head. I could have and would be willing to expound further, but I mean...it's a internet bodybuilding forum so...yeah.
> 
> Explaining the failings of semantics and symbols with semantics and symbols is difficult to say the least, but it's the only avenue available.
> 
> The map is not the territory.



Nice metaphor, I haven't heard that before.


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## MyK (Apr 20, 2010)

piratedebo said:


> Today's christians are averaging 5% use of their brains while catholics are still down to 2%..


 

LMFAO!!!

classic!


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## MyK (Apr 20, 2010)

Charter said:


> The map is not the territory.


 


fufu said:


> Nice metaphor, I haven't heard that before.


 
that one?

its nlp, Neuro-linguistic programming, crazy shit, check it out

Neuro-linguistic programming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## fufu (Apr 21, 2010)

MyK 3.0 said:


> that one?
> 
> its nlp, Neuro-linguistic programming, crazy shit, check it out
> 
> Neuro-linguistic programming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Great stuff.


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## soxmuscle (Apr 21, 2010)

Insanity.


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## Charter (Apr 21, 2010)

Why must I have 20 post to send a message to other users besides mods and also to post links?

It's not NLP, but plays a part in it, and NLP what in part was got me interested in General Semantics.

Fufu - well anyway - thought I'd throw some names at you for lite reading purposes.

Much of what I've said in the thread has been derived solely from these  two gentleman. Wiki will bring up a wealth of information on both, but more importantly I think is Korzybski's work on General Semantics of which both were students. You'll find that linked shortly into Korzybski's wikipedia page. 


The map is not the  territory. - *Alfred Korzybski *


“I don't believe anything I write or say. I regard  belief as a form of brain damage, the death of intelligence, the  fracture of creativity, the atrophy of imagination. I have opinions but  no Belief System (B.S.)” -* Robert Anton Wilson*


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## fufu (Apr 21, 2010)

Charter said:


> Why must I have 20 post to send a message to other users besides mods and also to post links?
> 
> It's not NLP, but plays a part in it, and NLP what in part was got me interested in General Semantics.
> 
> ...



I'll look into them, thanks for the info.


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## ArnoldsProtege (Apr 24, 2010)

I am not here to argue ideology. If you are not open to it, I am perfectly ok with that. It does not affect my reality in any way. I am merely illuminating this method and book for those who may gain from it. 

I am a fan and believer of subjectivity. While I do believe in an objective universe of simultaneous consciousness, I practice a subjective view. As in, if a belief benefits me i.e the belief that I can program my brain to want to be fit, the belief in the law of attraction, belief I am destined to be successful, etc. I do not care if anyone questions or tries to disprove any of them, for their input is irrelevant to me. I am also not stuck with beliefs; for a long time I believed in the Christian religion until it became detrimental to me, so I shed it and developed new ones. 

For anyone open to new ideas, new methodologies, and ideas like the law of attraction, the idea behind The Gabriel Method is an invaluable resource. 

Also, way to steal those quotes, I thought they were original lol. For a moment I thought you were being profound.


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## Charter (Apr 25, 2010)

ArnoldsProtege said:


> I am not here to argue ideology. If you are not open to it, I am perfectly ok with that. It does not affect my reality in any way. I am merely illuminating this method and book for those who may gain from it.
> 
> I am a fan and believer of subjectivity. While I do believe in an objective universe of simultaneous consciousness, I practice a subjective view. As in, if a belief benefits me i.e the belief that I can program my brain to want to be fit, the belief in the law of attraction, belief I am destined to be successful, etc. I do not care if anyone questions or tries to disprove any of them, for their input is irrelevant to me. I am also not stuck with beliefs; for a long time I believed in the Christian religion until it became detrimental to me, so I shed it and developed new ones.
> 
> ...



So you shed one belief system for another one. Still puts you in a mode of ignorance.

The problem with believing anything is not that we turn a blind-eye to everything else, but more importantly a blind-eye to that which we have begun to believe.

As soon as anything is assimilated as a belief (an ultimatum, and end all be all, a "personal truth") then investigation into that belief stops all together. 

You bare witness to the fact that over time and do to stimuli - belief systems change (this is the same for everyone, and what I alluded to in an earlier post), but it's a repeating pattern of abuse. 

People move from one belief system to the next, and each time the upheaval is usually a tumultuous experience which in itself is an addictive experience. It gives us a sense of self when our sense of self changes, and we like that.

What I'm trying to advocate is agnosticism about everything. Anything and everything which you experience as a phenomenon should be placed into proper perspective, and then continually re-examined. We do this anyway with the big questions in life, and continue to do so endlessly for all of our lives, but it's many of the "smaller things" that we take for granted, and on faith so to speak.

We aren't discussing idealogy, but rather methodology. The heart of the matter is a little more complex then I think you're able to grasp at this point, but I urge you to continue mentally digesting and re-examining what I and others have said in this thread (as well as yourself) rather than completely shutting down, and clinging to your beliefs. 

I urge you to learn about fractals - if only to give you an idea of what infinity really means. You are wrong at every level. 

Trust me when I say that everyone feels when clinging to an old paradigm at first as if they are at a precipes, but that precipes is just as imagined as the "belief" system itself. Cling rather to that immovable constant in life which you the observer. Just my personal philosophy there. 

I would also say that it takes more then we imagine from individual to individual to go from knowing how to do something to actually doing it, and I applaud your ability to do so. 

If anything your last post about me "stealing quotes" tells me more about you than anything. 

When you really begin to understand some of said quotes, from Buddha to Korzybski to Jung to Watts to R.A.W. you'll understand that anything ever said by anyone was only ever a gamble anyway.


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## fufu (Apr 25, 2010)

In addition to what Charter has stated - 

There is a phrase I often tell myself  - "Anyone can convince themselves that anything is real, no matter how ridiculous it may seem. Anything within the realm of mental conception can become real if the individual so wishes. "

I try to keep that in the back of my mind at all times. In practical terms, we humans naturally judge things as black or white, good or bad. It makes things easier, we don't like to be unsure. We would rather ignore the unknown and create a user-based reality.

The other side of the coin is accepting the unknown; accepting that it is everywhere and everything. Like Charter said, "I don't know", "we'll see", or "maybe". I believe that is the heart of science and understanding. Is is of the same character as Socratic belief, "I know that I know nothing". 

The problem with accepting the unknown is the mental incongruity. Accepting the unknown often brings people into a feeling of chaos and instability. But I think perhaps living in the world of instability will bring a person closest to the "reality" of life than anything else.

I'm not directly responding to anything specific, but just the general subject presented in this thread. I am not arguing good or bad, or right or wrong.


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## Charter (Apr 25, 2010)

fufu said:


> In addition to what Charter has stated -
> 
> There is a phrase I often tell myself  - "Anyone can convince themselves that anything is real, no matter how ridiculous it may seem. Anything within the realm of mental conception can become real if the individual so wishes. "
> 
> ...



For sure. I subscribe to non-aristotelian logic, but that's merely as a means of widening my own personal perspective. 

I would say to your analogy that there are not in fact two-sides of the coin, and if there are it's only because we the observer have invented said sides. 

Accepting the unknown becomes easy when we realize that nothing is known period, and only taken for granted. 

I try to remain in the moment, and tell myself that all perception is gamble. 

It's a crap-shoot, and if anyone says they have the answers then they're probably full of shit. 

In the end there is no substitute for experience. Limit your mind, limit your body, limit your experience. Experience is all the we have in life. Different experiences - some viewed subjectively as bad or good, but in the end all that we know that we have is experiences. Engage yourself fully in the moment. 

I don't think that any man has learned the truth, but many men have experienced it.


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## ArnoldsProtege (Apr 25, 2010)

Charter, I agree with much of what you have to say, and I respect you for the fact that you seek knowledge and education from important areas, where most people I know remain oblivious to social and political thought, cling to the ideas of success and happiness in life as a steady job and a mortgage. 

I am aware, also, that belief can be detrimental to the invididual as well as society itself. Just recently where I live a bill was shot down after religious groups protested against it. They are NOT for teaching sex education earlier in childhood development, and find it sinful. I find it ridiculous, and fear that mankind cannot progress as a species while religion is present, but that is off topic. 

I choose to believe in certain things because they benefit me, and that is all that matters for my subjective reality. I suppose you can say I am turning a blind eye and being ignorant, and I would not disagree. However, I have experienced incredible success in life when following these principles, and will continue to do so. Therefore, The Gabriel Method is highly effective for individuals who follow its teachings openly. 

I read of a spiritual teacher who claims that we are infinite beings, and have chosen our lives before hand. Since in our infiniteness things like money and possessions are useless, experience is what we exist for, and we go through infinity gaining new experiences and feelings. At first glance, I thought it was completely absurd, and it probably is. But, if that belief enables that man to live his life fully, to accept pain, and loss, and death and agony as part of his journey, then in his subjective reality, it benefits him. Not saying it is right or wrong, only a different perspective on this lovely consciousness that we all have come to enjoy.


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## fufu (Apr 25, 2010)

Charter said:


> For sure. I subscribe to non-aristotelian logic, but that's merely as a means of widening my own personal perspective.
> 
> I would say to your analogy that there are not in fact two-sides of the coin, and if there are it's only because we the observer have invented said sides.
> 
> ...



Yes, a creation of the observer, but one with very real and wide-spread implications. I think my phrasing was suitable.

The notion of "the creation of the observer", while true to me, can be taken so far that it practically breaks down all attempts to describe things literally into complete absurdity. That is why it is a tough idea to throw into an argument, as I see it. I agree with it, but when the notion of contrivance is itself described through the fabrication of spoken and written word, the meaning is largely lost, or just compounded into a mind-fuck. 

We just have to hope somebody gets what the other is saying when ideas are put through their own mental filters. Even harder when done over a forum. I like the way you think, though.


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## Charter (Apr 26, 2010)

fufu said:


> Yes, a creation of the observer, but one with very real and wide-spread implications. I think my phrasing was suitable.
> 
> The notion of "the creation of the observer", while true to me, can be taken so far that it practically breaks down all attempts to describe things literally into complete absurdity. That is why it is a tough idea to throw into an argument, as I see it. I agree with it, but when the notion of contrivance is itself described through the fabrication of spoken and written word, the meaning is largely lost, or just compounded into a mind-fuck.
> 
> We just have to hope somebody gets what the other is saying when ideas are put through their own mental filters. Even harder when done over a forum. I like the way you think, though.



Well put sir. 

I would also like to make the point that in the moment I don't necessarily analyze and extrapolate like I am now. In fact for the most part I don't at all, and this being an internet forum it's hard to observe the social skills of those involved which plays a huge role in how we experience situations.

Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle dictates that I engage in the experience first, and re-examine later if necessary. It sounds ridiculous, but it's how everyone works, and I just make it a point to take it a little further. Why not? I've always taken things a little further then most.

If it's unnecessary which is to say - no new information, nothing of interest, no patterns created derived from said experience etc, I just don't worry about it.

I think that luckily for me I've always been extroverted and able to maneuver myself well in social situations. I like to think that I am an engaging person. People enjoy conversing with me, and that helps in this area in particular. 

ArnoldsProtege - using a methodology which you know produces success doesn't mean you have to "believe" in it (and maybe you really don't) it just means you have empirical evidence of a methodology that works.

It's as simple as this. You perceive that the cracker is a cracker, and so it is as cracker. You are making the cracker.

You perceive that these methodologies work, and they work. You are losing the weight.

Now both of these things can be broken down into their basic parts, and we can see how they're the same. 

Crackers = flour/salt/water = h2o,NaCL,carbon = subatomic particles.

Gabriel Method = psycho-therapeutic techniques/Faulty Logic/Eating Healthy + Working out = losing weight.

Everything may be seen as a means to an ends. You invented the cracker. You invented the methodology. Both to achieve your goal in reference to said phenomenon. One goal was to lose weight, and the other was to quantify that little square bit of disorder in the Universe. 

Who is the Master who makes the grass green?

I would also say that while I believe consciousness is a infinite intelligence of which we are all apart I seriously doubt that we as individuals continue in any sense of which we could be recognized beyond our death. 

Either the individual is stripped of identity and reinserted into the stream of consciousness or they become something so radically different that they'd be indistinguishable to those of us engaged in a personally preconceived pattern of consciousness. 

You won't be you after you die. How's that for an answer? Bare in mind I'm probably wrong.


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