# arnold press



## jmesherghi (Sep 8, 2010)

hi i need a rough estimate for this exersise

if i can do 24 kg for 8 reps of normal seated shoulder presses

then how much weight do yout think i can do for 12 reps with the arnold press


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## roastchicken (Sep 8, 2010)

Why don't you try it and find out!


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## jmesherghi (Sep 8, 2010)

lol i no but i just want a rough estimate so i can build on that i wna make sure my routine is near enough spot on when i start


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## yeksetm (Sep 8, 2010)

It all depends on whether you've hit your triceps for 12 sets beforehand! If you haven't then I think 5kg for 12 reps would be a good place to start!


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## juggernaut (Sep 8, 2010)

He wants someone else to do the work for him. Lazy with Down Syndrome.


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## Gazhole (Sep 8, 2010)

Start with something you know for a fact you can do. Increase each set until it feels about right.

Theres not a formula for this sort of thing. I can do 200+ on flat bench, but when i switch to incline i struggle with 150. Switch to dumbell incline and i'm only doing the 50's. Yet with all that i can military about 170 so my shoulders aren't the problem. Go figure.

Just get in there and lift something.


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## jmesherghi (Sep 8, 2010)

juggernaught man uv got some really bad roid rage, comon u knwo that u love me really 

nah tricep day is a different day  iv decided to head some of your advice, on my back day im going to get rid of the 1 set of lat spade pulldowns and 3 sets of bench dumbell rows, and going to replace them with another 2 sets of barbell bentover rows ( my back day had most isolation exersises)

tuesday: back, deads, shrugs biceps

4 sets of lat pull downs 
4sets of Barbell bentover row 
2 sets of reverse flys 
5 deads 
5 shrugs 
 and okayyyyyyyy guys u win 5 sets of bicep ( still going to train tris on a friday they are a top priority)

2 EZ sets and 3 sets of dumbell preacher curls 

do you think it would be better to get rid of the 2 sets of reverse flys and just add another 2 sets of bentover rows its just i though they where a compound move what do you think?


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## Built (Sep 8, 2010)

jmesherghi, is that the order you intend to use for your back workout?


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## yeksetm (Sep 8, 2010)

Why no pull up/chinup for your back day? In my opinion they should be a staple of every workout?!!

Now you've been told this already so I will put it in bold so you don't miss it!

*Read the stickies*

Cheers


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## Gazhole (Sep 8, 2010)

Deads should be first, always.


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## jmesherghi (Sep 8, 2010)

i can only do like 4 pullups, dunno y im shit at them just i think my body doesnt realy work weel with them, 

guess il just scrap the reverse flys and add another 2 sets of bent over rows iv bin training in the 8 rep range for quite a while now, ocasionally going 2 9 reps, do you think 

with the bentover rows i shud follow a pyramid sceme do 2 sets at 12 reps, 2 sets at 10 reps and then 1 set at 8 reps and 1 set at 6 reps?

erm i was going to do the back exerises followed by the bicep exersises and then the deads and shrugs


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## jmesherghi (Sep 8, 2010)

erm okay il do the deads first then its just that i read somehwre they shud be last cuz your back primary exersies should be your focus


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## jmesherghi (Sep 8, 2010)

or maybe it will be benificial to miss out that 8th rep and just do 2 6 reps as i have been training at 8 reps for a while?


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## Gazhole (Sep 8, 2010)

Oh and pullups. Do them. I don't care if you're doing sets of 1 for 6 months. They're by far the best back exercise out there and will do more for your biceps than any curl could ever hope to.

Deads should be first simply because you'll be doing more weight on them than any other exercise (i hope), and if your back is pre-fatigued theres more chance of you rounding it and sending vertebrae flying all over the gym.


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## yeksetm (Sep 8, 2010)

4 is a start! Practice practice practice.  Do negatives as well!  When I started all I could manage was 3, im up to 11 now.  As Gaz said do your dead first! Bigger excercise = more demanding on your body.


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## jmesherghi (Sep 8, 2010)

okay il do pullups as many as i can, what do you think about the 8th rep?

iv been training this way for  a while now so on compound exercises i plan to follow  a pyramid sceme, shud i ignore the 8th rep and try and go for another 10th rep and another 6th rep maybe?


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## Phineas (Sep 8, 2010)

Poor performance on pullups isn't _necessarily_ from not performing them enough. Granted, the best way to improve at pullups is to do them, but there are other factors which will hinder performance:

(1.) The assisting muscles are fatigued due to (too much) isolation training. Remember, in a pullup you're lats are assisted by the biceps and posterior deltoids. Bent-over laterals for the posterior delts aren't very popular but as we all know arm curls are just about all you see from most guys in a gym. Overtrained/fatigued biceps will lead to poor pullup performance.

(2.) Your grip is weak. Pullups require a great deal of grip. Not only are you pulling up your own bodyweight -- which most people can't do, or at least do very poorly -- you're controlling that weight to prevent yourself from swinging around. While it would be your core muscles primarily that keep your torso and hips stabalized in the lift your grip/forearms will surely play a role in that, as well. 

(3.) Your core is weak. Many people don't realize but pullups are an excellent core workout. Unless you want to be swinging around the place on the way up on down, your core muscles need to contract isometrically to maintain a steady position as you move up and down the bar. For someone who regularly performs squats, deadlifts, military presses, cleans, rows, or just about any heavy compound lift for that matter with controlled form this shouldn't be an issue. However, those who train heavily with isolation and machine exercises tend to not have the core strength/coordination to properly execute a pullup. It is, believe it or not, a full-body exercise. It's not just "back".


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## jmesherghi (Sep 8, 2010)

true...

but anyone have any ideas on the 8th rep scenario even my favourtie juggernuaght?


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## Phineas (Sep 8, 2010)

jmesherghi said:


> true...
> 
> but anyone have any ideas on the 8th rep scenario even my favourtie juggernuaght?



So, from my understanding you've been training at sets of 8 and you're worries you'll be shortchanged if you don't train to 8 reps?

How many reps you perform is really meaningless. It all depends on the intensity at which you're lifting (intensity as a measure of relative effort, e.g. 80% of your 1 RM; 3 sets of 10 @ 12 RM, etc), overall volume, rest intervals, tempo, tonneage, etc. It's good to mix up your training intensity, however. Also, you'll probably come to find you get better results with certain lifts at certain intensities. For instance, I prefer to keep my deadlifts at submaximal loads. I'll use deadlift variations for higher-rep accessory work, but the conventional deadlift I reserve for powerlifting.

Also, deadlifts are actually a leg exercise. The primary muscle groups trained are the hamstrings and glutes. The back is worked secondarily. Go ahead and do them on a back day, but always do them first.


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## jmesherghi (Sep 8, 2010)

okay thanks


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## unclem (Sep 8, 2010)

just try 40lb db to start with arnolds and see if u can do them. if u can do 8 then go higher until 6-8 is just hard enough. if its 100 lbs then thats wat u use. u gotta try it yourself.


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## juggernaut (Sep 8, 2010)

To be completely honest with james, do yourself a real favor-and I mean this in all honesty and no bullshit: Your routine is completely ridiculous. You need to begin with heavy compounds, as in squats, deads, bench, military presses, and chins or rows. And do those only for about 10 weeks. Get insanely strong and grow from doing that alone. When I put my clients on weight gain/bulk routine, I keep it simple yet brutally effective. Here's my absolute favorite for getting BIG:

For the first exercise, pick a weight you can do just 10 reps with. go to 20, but take deep breath in between reps.

Session 1:
20 rep squats 1x20
Dumbbell Pullover; 1x12
5 minute rest;
Romanian Deadlifts; 2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps
Weighted Pullups; 2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps
.
Session 2:
20 rep standard deadlift 1x20
Dumbbell Pullover; 1x12
5 minute rest;
Barbell Push Press; 2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps
Hang Cleans;2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps
.
Session 3:
20 rep squats 1x20
Dumbbell Pullover; 1x12
5 minute rest;
Incline Bench Press; 2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps
Barbell Rows; 2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps

I've recommended this to several people and all of them saw success. Gaz put this into my head I just ran with it. He wrote a great article some time back.


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## juggernaut (Sep 8, 2010)

btw-sorry, no arm work. But it wont matter.


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## jmesherghi (Sep 8, 2010)

thanks juggernuaght i do appreciate your help cuz u have still writen and tried to help me even though we  had arguments before lol

i have taken aboard your views on isolation exersises being shit ect, but i think a few are helpfull, i personally think i react well to hard intensity training and the way i train i used to train chest twice a week and its my best feature

i have taken aboard you advice and mixed it in with my own ideas on what i think will work with me 

(i was training 6 to 8 rep range before) all over exerises not listed rep range will rep between 10 and 12

monday: chest 
7 sets of bench press (starting off at 15, 12, 12, 10,10 8,6)
2 sets of incline barbell press(10 to 12 rep) 
2 sets of decline 
2 sets of flies 

tuesday: back, deads,  bis
5 deads (10, 10, 8, 6, 6)
as many pullups as i can manage
4 sets of lat pull downs 
6 sets of Barbell bentover row starting off at 12 working down to 6 reps)

2 EZ BB curls 
2 standing hammer curls 
2 preacher curls 


wednesday: shoulders 
5 sets of arnold seated shoulder presses (12,,10,10,8,6)
3 sets of lat raises 
2 sets of front raises 
2 bentover lat raises 

thursday: legs 

8 sets of squats(15,12,12,12,10,10,8,6) 
3 sets of hamstring curls machine 
1 sets of quad extensions 

friday: tris + traps

7 sets of narrow grip BB (starting off at 15, 12,,10,10, 10,8,6,)
2 sets of seated overhead extenions 
3 sets of one arm reverse grip pushdowns 

5 shrugs

i want to train tris by themselves as i cnt perform good form after chest day

also i want to train traps on this day to as it would take probaly take over an hour on back day is that okay
 i feel because i just eat and literally rest on my bed at home all day then this helps the recovery process

probaly gna slaughter me for this routine but hey...


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## LAM (Sep 8, 2010)

never understood the "Arnold" press..supination of the forearm during the movement accomplishes what exactly?


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## MDR (Sep 8, 2010)

LAM said:


> never understood the "Arnold" press..supination of the forearm during the movement accomplishes what exactly?



My understanding is that it brings the posterior head of the deltoid into play a bit more-correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Phineas (Sep 8, 2010)

MDR said:


> My understanding is that it brings the posterior head of the deltoid into play a bit more-correct me if I'm wrong.



That's what was always said about it, but I don't understand how it can. The posterior deltoids assist in pulling the arms inward, not extending outward.


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## jmesherghi (Sep 8, 2010)

i might change that thinking about it i am presuming normal shoulder presses hit the side delt more then the arnyu press which hits the front more and less sides

what do u think of the trap thing?


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## MDR (Sep 8, 2010)

Phineas said:


> That's what was always said about it, but I don't understand how it can. The posterior deltoids assist in pulling the arms inward, not extending outward.



Yep-I've tried it a few times just for shits and giggles, but I'm far from an expert, as it isn't a staple for me by any means.


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## LAM (Sep 8, 2010)

Phineas said:


> That's what was always said about it, but I don't understand how it can. The posterior deltoids assist in pulling the arms inward, not extending outward.



exactly....personally think this is another one of those exercises (such as leg lifts/frog kicks, etc. targeting the "lower" abs) where people use localized fatigue to judge the actual mechanics of the exercise..which is wrong


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## Phineas (Sep 8, 2010)

LAM said:


> exactly....personally think this is another one of those exercises (such as leg lifts/frog kicks, etc. targeting the "lower" abs) where people use localized fatigue to judge the actual mechanics of the exercise..which is wrong



Agreed.


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## jmesherghi (Sep 9, 2010)

is the principle of my routine good, i have read a few times it can be good to train up to 15 reps so i have included it, OR IS IT NOT NESSARY AND JUST SHOULD START OFF AT 12 REPS

i would just imagine that after heavy hard training 6_8 reps that my muscles would be completely shocked by this rep sceme, what do you think
 (all over exerises that have no rep sceme next to it will be between 10_12

monday: chest 
7 sets of bench press (starting off at 15, 12, 12, 10,10 8,6)
2 sets of incline dumbell press
2 sets of decline 
2 sets of flies 

tuesday: back, deads, bis
5 deads (10, 10, 8, 6, 6)
as many pullups as i can manage
4 sets of lat pull downs 
6 sets of Barbell bentover row starting off at 12 working down to 6 reps)

2 EZ BB curls 
2 standing hammer curls 
2 preacher curls 


wednesday: shoulders 
5 sets of arnold seated shoulder presses (12,,10,10,8,6)
3 sets of lat raises 
2 sets of front raises 
2 bentover lat raises 

thursday: legs 

8 sets of squats(15,12,12,12,10,10,8,6) 
3 sets of hamstring curls machine 
1 sets of quad extensions 

friday: tris + traps

7 sets of narrow grip BB (starting off at 15, 12,,10,10, 10,8,6,)
2 sets of seated overhead extenions 
3 sets of one arm reverse grip pushdowns 

5 shrugs


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## unclem (Sep 9, 2010)

on a personal note i like arnold presses. its good at 130lb db it hits them hard. but only if its strict u can feel the muscle work. i can anyway, but iam only speaking for wat it does for me. but i dont do them more than 8 weeks then i change to other movements. i do them seated as with all heavy movements. iam going to start to use standing military presses. if it dont fuck with my form or back.


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## unclem (Sep 9, 2010)

jmesherghi said:


> is the principle of my routine good, i have read a few times it can be good to train up to 15 reps so i have included it, OR IS IT NOT NESSARY AND JUST SHOULD START OFF AT 12 REPS
> 
> i would just imagine that after heavy hard training 6_8 reps that my muscles would be completely shocked by this rep sceme, what do you think
> (all over exerises that have no rep sceme next to it will be between 10_12
> ...


 
 brother u have to many sets for just one movement. break up the sets evenly. and i would do a 4 on 1 off 3 on 2 off and train some in am then eat , nap, eat, wait awhile 2 hrs then hit the gym again in the pm. thats wat i do if my work allows it. but power lifting i dont know, jugger, flathead, phineas, gazhole, few others are the ones to listen to. flathead competes in powerlifting competitions.


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## jmesherghi (Sep 9, 2010)

i understand that everyone on here pretty much aggres thata re to manys ets etc but i feel my body responds weel to hard intensity as i have said i sued tot rain my chest twice a week and its my best feature,

BUT THE PRINCIPLE OF MY ROUTINE IS WHAT I REAALY NEED ADVICE ON, I MEAN AFTER TRAINING HARD FOR A WHILE AND STALLING IN PROGRESS DO YOU GUYS THINK THE REP SCEME I HAVE MADE UP WILL SHOCK MY MUCLES, OR IS THE 15H REP NOT NEEDED?


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## unclem (Sep 9, 2010)

i would stay at 6-10, 12 max, but iam not smart.


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## jmesherghi (Sep 9, 2010)

Okay cheers


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## Phineas (Sep 9, 2010)

jmesherghi said:


> is the principle of my routine good, i have read a few times it can be good to train up to 15 reps so i have included it, OR IS IT NOT NESSARY AND JUST SHOULD START OFF AT 12 REPS
> 
> i would just imagine that after heavy hard training 6_8 reps that my muscles would be completely shocked by this rep sceme, what do you think
> (all over exerises that have no rep sceme next to it will be between 10_12
> ...



Simply increasing the reps isn't the answer to "shock" your muscles. You don't improve by just adding more and more volume to an already high-volume routine. Remember that as volume increases intensity has to decrease.

Some people do respond well to volume. You might be one of them. I just finished two microcycles of an extremely high-volume program. Just to give you an idea, mine had more combined exercises and sets than yours, except purely with compounds! It was torture. However, I wrote the program with very specific intensities to keep me from reaching failure on all but maybe the powerlifts at the beginning of each session. I got amazing results in two months, but after that my body started to catch up with the torture, so I scaled down to a hybrid high/low volume program. Still lots of sets, relatively speaking, but fewer lifts, one less day, and more recovery time. Because of this, the intensity can go up again. I didn't bother rewriting a complex program, as I'm beginning a new one in a month, but in the mean time this sudden shift of volume/intensity will be plenty of "shock".

You need to address more than just the number of sets and reps. To most people saying 10 sets of 5 would seem very intense, as they would assume failure at rep 5 or 6 (that's the common approach to reps for most guys in the gym...to train to failure or near failure on all sets). However, what if I said 10 sets of 5 at an 8 rep max? What about 10 sets of 5 at a 10 rep max? The intensity changes considerably. From the first assumption of the failure set to the 10 RM sets the intensity changed from submaximal loads to more along the lines of active recovery. This is one of many training variables.

One way for you to "shock" your muscles will be to ditch all that isolation, and reserve all your body's resources for the more productive, physically demanding compound lifts. Try some submaximal lifting. Muscle gains don't just come from a certain rep range. The whole follow this rep range and that rep range is kind of oversimplified. What is certain is that training at submaximal loads improves your neural efficiency -- that is you train your body to recruit a greater number of motor units in a movement, thus making your muscles more efficient. More efficient muscles are stronger/more powerful muscles. Stronger muscles lift more weight in a shorter time. More weight in a shorter time means more stimulus with more recovery time. More recovery time means more growth and opportunity to replenish muscle gylcogen. Larger, stronger, fresher muscles with more glycogen means more productive workouts. It's an endless cycle of productivity, if you play your cards right.

(1.) Ditch the isolation.

(2.) Balance your upper body pulling with pushing. Currently, there is too much chest and shoulder work. You want the two to be 50/50, or else (a) risk rotator cuff injury down the road, which will prevent you from doing chest/shoulder work and (b) look ridiculous and get laughed at by anyone seriously using a squat rack.

(3.) Include more leg work. Of all those exercises only 4 are lower body (deadlifts are a leg lift) -- two of which are isolation (even them, you have far fewer sets relative to upper isolation). Bring in more lower body compounds, with equal number for pushing and pulling. Use a unilateral lift for each, as well (split squats for pushing? unilateral romanian deads for pulling?).

(4.) Drop the volume. Too much volume, and no rationale for the rep ranges besides that they're common. Reserve certain lifts for certain intensities. Not all lifts necessarily need to be trained at the same rep range. The basic compounds like squats, deads, rows, etc, typically yield better results at submaximal loads, as they're more geared towards full-body development and neural efficiency. Then, include supplementary lifts like squat, dead, row, bench, etc, variations at higher rep ranges with different intensities, tempos, etc, and order of exercises according to what works for you. Don't do three chest-dominant lifts back to back. If you do an upper push/pull day maybe do heavy bench then follow it with heavy bent over rows. You allow the pushing muscles to actively recover due to localized blood flow, you can maintain better lifting intensity by switching and not training the freshly fatigued pushing muscles, and you'd be training in the horizontal plane (same as bench press) which will augment your bench performance (improving your rows improves your bench performance).

(5.) Adopt a periodization scheme. Rather than performing the same sets, reps, etc every session, set concrete goals and write an entire program that progresses in some way to achieve that goal. You can compose microcycles where you train at different intensities, add/remove certain lifts and adjust the volume accordingly, you can incorporate other training styles for a few weeks at a time like plyometrics, GPP, olympic weight lifting, etc. If you assess your weakpoints preventing you from reaching your goal then you can customize your program to gradually address those weak points on a number of fronts.

(6.) Eat big but eat clean and smart. It's true that when bulking you need to take in a lot of calories to provide your body with those extra resources necessary to create new, metabolically-expensive tissue (which it doesn't want, remember..this is the challenge of muscle development). However, this isn't an excuse to scarf down greasy burgers and take-out. When it comes to bodybuilding, strength training, powerlifting, whatever, you really are what you eat. The better you serve your body the better it will serve you. 

Track your diet on fitday.com, and post it here for review. Everyone says their diet is great, but they don't understand how wrong they can be. There's so much more to it than protein shakes and canned tuna. In fact, most guys claiming to have a hold on diet have only addressed high-protein, and almost always are over-relying on supplements, and just flat out consuming way more than they need.

As important as training may be, diet is the determining factor in whether or not you'll be successful.


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## nova1970sb (Sep 9, 2010)

i would chang squats and deads to a heavy 5x5, that was where i saw the most gain. and go heavy. and 7 sets of bench press, are you serious man? i would go 3 sets flat, 3 sets incline, and ditch the decline.


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## jmesherghi (Sep 9, 2010)

i am going to get rid of my front raises and add another 2 sets of shoulder presses
thats personally one exersise (decline) i do like, i have trained for a period without it and period with it a very long period and i honestly think it helped develop my lower chest,

i also used to train my chest twice a week for MORE sets alot more sets and hard, and its my best feature, it was the only muscle i trained twice a week and well it grew very well,

i do think that we can train our muscles more then what most people think as i have said before i no many people that hit there chest tris and bis all for 12 sets and are hugeeeeeee, i no people that hit there chest i was one of them, and tris twice a week for 12 sets each! and well they are big, i no people that go tot he gym 6 times a week and he is big trains muscles groups twice a week and agaain he is big

if i can train my chest twice a week for more sets and harder then the routine above with constant sets to failure and have my chest grow like a weed, well i do not think that the routine is overtraining, i have researched and studied perodisation and performed a 24 week cycle, (endurance phase), (muscular endurance)  (hypertrophy), (strength/power) and gues what it worked during hypertophy i got fuking massive all down to the previous endurance and muscular endurance pahses which built me up for hypertrophy, during my hypertrophy phase all large muscle groups where 12 sets, bis and tris where only 5 sets but where after chest and back
but i want to train my tris once a week hard as they are lagging so thats why i have put them in a seperate day

isnt a 5x5 routine more for strenght rather then size considereing its not in hypertrohy range but rather strenght range?


(all other exercises with no listed reps will be between 12 and 10)
monday: chest 
6 sets of bench press (starting off at , 12, 12, 10,10 8,6,6)
2 sets of incline dumbbell press
2 sets of decline 
2 sets of flies 

tuesday: back, deads, bis
5 deads (10, 10, 8, 6, 6)
as many pullups as i can manage
4 sets of lat pull downs 
6 sets of Barbell bentover row starting off at 12 working down to 6 reps)

2 EZ BB curls 
2 standing hammer curls 
2 preacher curls 


wednesday: shoulders 
7 sets of  standing  shoulder presses (12,,10,10, 10,8,6, 6)
3 sets of lat raises 
2 bentover lat raises 

thursday: legs 

8 sets of squats(12,12,10,10,10,8,6,6) 
3 sets of hamstring curls machine 
1 sets of quad extensions 

friday: tris + traps

7 sets of narrow grip BB (starting off at 12, 12,10,10, 10,8,6,)
2 sets of seated overhead extensions 
3 sets of one arm reverse grip pushdowns 
5 shrugs


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## Phineas (Sep 9, 2010)

jmesherghi said:


> i am going to get rid of my front raises and add another 2 sets of shoulder presses
> thats personally one exersise (decline) i do like, i have trained for a period without it and period with it a very long period and i honestly think it helped develop my lower chest,
> 
> i also used to train my chest twice a week for MORE sets alot more sets and hard, and its my best feature, it was the only muscle i trained twice a week and well it grew very well,
> ...



You can train muscle groups several times in a week. In fact, I think training full-body 3 days a week is ideal. However, it's the volume that we're talking about. 

Just because you had growth in an area doesn't mean the process was the most efficient or safest. You could have had better results with a lower volume approach. We're just saying what's the safest, most efficient way to see results. You can blast the hell out of your muscles constantly and see results, or you can do less but in a more organized, progressive manner and see just as good if not better results. I enjoy being in the gym as much as any bro-school advocate, but I'd rather see the results at the least cost to my body and schedule. I already spend several hours a week preparing, weighing, and portioning food -- not to mention researching -- I would like to keep the training as efficient as possible.

Also, if you train certain muscle groups at the expense of others then those muscle groups receiving the extra attention WILL grow well beyond the other muscle groups. Ever hear of Greg Valentino? He obsessively trained his arms to the point that they were inhuman, disgusting proportions. Ever seen his legs or back, though? Different story.

At the moment you have very little leg work, and not much back work relative to the rest. You have an overwhelming amount of chest, shoulder, and arm work (the male model triangle, as I like to call it). Even if by common training knowledge you're overtraining those muscle groups they at least have extra resources for repair because the other muscle groups are undertrained, and thus aren't demanding the same amount of calories and nutrients.

5 x 5 is intended for strength/power/neural efficiency. Muscle mass doesn't necessarily come from any rep range. Muscle mass comes from diet. Besides, with even a decent diet 5 x 5 will give amazing mass. Look at the common powerlifter versus a high-rep gym go'er. High reps will develop muscular endurance, not necessarily large muscles. Bodybuilders tend to stick to higher reps, but (a) they gain their mass through very careful diet/supplements and (b) the IFBB freakshow pros are all juiced. Gears change the physics of muscle building.

We've given plenty of advice to you. Between this thread and PMs I especially have invested a lot of time in you, hoping I could help you clean up your program, but you seem unconvinceable. If you're so keen on what you're doing that you just reject any advice from those arguing with science and logic versus claimed results based on false logic then why are you here asking for advice? 

We just want to help those looking for help. If you're not really open to help, then please don't waste our time asking for it.


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## jmesherghi (Sep 9, 2010)

fair enough i do appreciate the help, and i have taken pointers from you guys, i have ditched pretty much all islolation work which i was wrong in doing and yes your logic was write in the sene of compound moves and i will also take on the 5x5 approach for my deads and squats so your time has not been completely wasted you have converted me with some important aspects  

other then the 5x5 approach for my squats what else can i do in my leg day i do like the hamsting curl tho i really do feel it the next couple of day and i like to use the quad extension just to finish off so to speak the quads
so that would be 5 sets of squats
3 sets of curls and il do 3 sets of leg extenions
anything else to add for the leg day? i was thinking of romain deadlifts but i would think doing deads on my back day and then ro deads wud be overkill

my diet is one thing that is in order i believe and rest outside of the gym all i do on monday to fridays is go to the gym, supplement with shakes, creatin and alminos, eat, eat some more and sit on my hairy ass all day at the computer or my bed lol so i think this is another reason why i think i can recover well from my routine whereas you probaly go to work so your intensity probaly needs to be lower...

but still you are convincing me about overtraining ..... its just i see loads and loads of people train tris chest bis twice a week for 12 sets espcially tris and no of people going everyay for 6 months and getting massive, iv read lots of articles online and magazines ect saying large muscle groups like chest and legs can be trained up to 12 sets and even more.... my gym instrcutre helped me plan my hypertrophy work and he considers shoulders a large muscle group in a  way and set to hit them hard once a week for 12 sets

i no triceps get worked during chest and shoulder presses but not directly, they arnt the main muscle group used write? so wnt a day between chest, and a day between shoulder be enough rest to target the tricep muscles directly, as during the pressing move  ie bench and shoulder press they are a secondary muscle group used?


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## Phineas (Sep 9, 2010)

jmesherghi said:


> fair enough i do appreciate the help, and i have taken pointers from you guys, i have ditched pretty much all islolation work which i was wrong in doing and yes your logic was write in the sene of compound moves and i will also take on the 5x5 approach for my deads and squats so your time has not been completely wasted you have converted me with some important aspects
> 
> other then the 5x5 approach for my squats what else can i do in my leg day i do like the hamsting curl tho i really do feel it the next couple of day and i like to use the quad extension just to finish off so to speak the quads
> so that would be 5 sets of squats
> ...



Why do you think having two deadlift variations -- which train the whole body indirectly and the largest muscle groups directly -- in one week is overkill but training smaller muscle groups more often isn't?


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## jmesherghi (Sep 9, 2010)

oh because deadlifts train hams directly dnt they, isnt it one of the main uscle gruops that get hit by them,

can i ask something else then if i still wanted to train tris heavy by themsevles on a friday can i train that chest routine on a monday morning and then the shoulder routine in the late afternoon, train my back and bis routine on tuesday and then have that brake on wednesday so i directly get 3 days before i hit the tris again or wud that be completely overkill


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## roastchicken (Sep 9, 2010)

This guy does not want any genuine help and is clearly not reading any of the posts.

Another cunt who wants validation of his own piss poor routine ,LET HIM BE SMALL!!!


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## jmesherghi (Sep 9, 2010)

okay guys okay, i have been thinking about it and your convincing me your makeing me think, you my very well have to be working hard on me but your convincing me, how about on a chest day i perform the same chest routine, however i also will train my shoulders, 4 sets of shoulder presses 2 sets of lateral raises and 2 bentover raises, should i then do my back day tuesday and then take wednesday off?

also will this help my validation of training triceps with my routine on friday as i now have 3 full days to recover from the pushing of the chest and shoulder preses?


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## nova1970sb (Sep 9, 2010)

still think your planning on doing way way way too much work bud, there is such thing as over training


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## jmesherghi (Sep 10, 2010)

final routine _

(all other exercises with no listed reps will be between 12 and 10)

monday: tris + traps
7 sets of narrow grip BB (starting off at 12, 12,10,10, 10,8,6,)
2 sets of seated overhead extensions 
3 sets of one arm reverse grip pushdowns 
5 shrugs

tuesday: legs 

8 sets of squats(12,12,10,10,10,8,6,6) 
3 sets of hamstring curls machine 
1 sets of quad extensions 


wednesday: (rest)


thursday: back, deads, bis

5 deads (10, 10, 8, 6, 6)
as many pullups as i can manage
4 sets of lat pull downs 
6 sets of Barbell bentover row starting off at 12,10,10,8, 6, 6 reps)

2 EZ BB curls 
2 standing hammer curls 
2 preacher curls 


friday: chest and shoulders

6 sets of bench press (starting off at , 12, 12, 10,10 8,6,6)
2 sets of incline dumbbell press
2 sets of decline 
2 sets of flies 

4 sets of standing shoulder press (12,10,8,6)
2 sets of lat raises
2 sets of bentover lat raises

I do want to thank you all for your help i no it has been hard.... but i have taken alot of your points like geting rid of most of my isolations and i have now decided to take a brake off on wednesday

i now have 3 full days to recover before my triceps are stimulated through their secondary involvement in the pushing exersises of chest and shoulders which will give me a suffient rest i feel

but thanks for the advice, i am going to try this routine for amonth if i make now progress il be going back here begging for help, its its a success i will caryy on for 6 to 8 weeks and stay intouch witht his forum for advice

thankyou


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## MyK (Sep 10, 2010)

"ok ok guys, so I am going to totally disregard and ignore all of the well thought out clearly explained and priceless advice that you have given me. Instead can you please just say that you think that the routine that I want to do will work because I saw a guy with huge triceps one time do alot of isolation volume. thanks"


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## Built (Sep 10, 2010)

Do calves on Monday and Friday. Toss 'em in between sets. 
Learn how to do cleans - and do 'em first on Monday. (good for traps)


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## jmesherghi (Sep 10, 2010)

okay the only muscle group where i can see it might be overtained is the triceps, however i do not want to train them on either a chest day or shoulder day 

i will get rid of the overhead extensions, but i do want to keep the reverse grip beacuse it will aloow me to self spot and push through a few extra reps

how many sets would you guys do if you trained triceps once a week by themselves would 10 sets be reasonabal?
also if you trained biceps by themselves how many sets would you do,


also do you think the amount of sets and exersises i had planned for shoulder training on chest is good enough to stimulate good growth?


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## Phineas (Sep 10, 2010)

jmesherghi said:


> okay the only muscle group where i can see it might be overtained is the triceps, however i do not want to train them on either a chest day or shoulder day
> 
> i will get rid of the overhead extensions, but i do want to keep the reverse grip beacuse it will aloow me to self spot and push through a few extra reps
> 
> ...



How many isolation sets would depend on how many compound sets you were doing. If you train a decent amount of compound sets, and want to keep isolating let's say your biceps and triceps then I'd say maybe 3-5 sets per muscle groups would be fine. 10 is quite a bit, but again it depends on the intensity of those sets. As long as they're augmenting training and not impeding on your performance on your compounds -- and you're making progress -- then go ahead. 

Also, note that you get shoulder training with upper pulling. Most people don't realize that; they think of "shoulder work" as shoulder presses, front raises, lateral raises, etc. However, the posterior deltoids are part of your shoulders, and they're a pulling muscle group. So, for full shoulder development make sure you're doing rows and pullups (which you have).

Incidentally, deadlifts, cleans, and other exercises where you have to support heavy loads with your arms will result in extra posterior deltoid development, as the muscle group not only assists in pulling but also stabilizing the scapula when holding objects (basically prevents your shoulders from tearing forward when bearing heavy loads).


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## MyK (Sep 10, 2010)

jmesherghi said:


> okay the only muscle group where i can see it might be overtained is the *triceps, however i do not want to train them on either a chest day or shoulder day *
> 
> i will get rid of the overhead extensions, but i do want to keep the reverse grip beacuse it will aloow me to self spot and push through a few extra reps
> 
> ...


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## jmesherghi (Sep 10, 2010)

basicly i hate training triceps after a chest or shoulder day simply because my form really suffers, i can perfrom bicep on a  back day fine but not triceps after a chest or shoulder day, lots of people prefer to train triceps with back etc 

phineas_ i always do compound exersises before isolation as you already know compounds are the bread and butter of routines, 


7 sets of narrow grip BB (starting off at 12, 12,10,10, 10,8,6,)
3 sets of one arm reverse grip pushdowns 


this is my tricep routine, i got rid of the overhead extensions , erm i was planning to take the narrow grip sets to failure or at least near it
and for my one arm reverse grips i was going to self spot on the last 2 sets to force a few extra reps out so thats my intensions for the intensins for the intensity of my tricep training

but then i have a whole 3 days off before any direct work is done with shoulder and chest

speaking of shoulder and chest 

chest and shoulders

6 sets of bench press (starting off at , 12, 12, 10,10 8,6,6)
2 sets of incline dumbbell press
2 sets of decline 
2 sets of flies 

4 sets of standing shoulder press (12,10,8,6)
2 sets of lat raises
2 sets of bentover lat raises


i would ideally like to add another 2 shoulder press sets taking it in total to 10 sets for shoulders but im guessing thats a no no right


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## Phineas (Sep 10, 2010)

jmesherghi said:


> basicly i hate training triceps after a chest or shoulder day simply because my form really suffers, i can perfrom bicep on a  back day fine but not triceps after a chest or shoulder day, lots of people prefer to train triceps with back etc
> 
> phineas_ i always do compound exersises before isolation as you already know compounds are the bread and butter of routines,
> 
> ...



See comments.


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## jmesherghi (Sep 10, 2010)

no the bench press sets do not include warm ups and all the sets on my bench i was looking to go near to failure at least, i was looking to go to absolute failure on the last to reps of 6 

so then just 6 sets for triceps? i see and have reserached that a lot of pople will nomrally do 5 or 6 sets after training chest, however i will be training triceps by themselves so theres no previous stimulation of the tricep areas so i though that 10 sets would be a good bet?

also i have been looking to incorporate higher rep scemes, what benefits will doing lat raises have at say the 15 rep mark rather then the 10 to 12 rep mark?


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## LAM (Sep 10, 2010)

jmesherghi said:


> what benefits will doing lat raises have at say the 15 rep mark rather then the 10 to 12 rep mark?



varying the rep range allows one to more effectively fatigue the various muscle fiber types from type 1 to type 2a and b.

I use a rep scheme from about 6-50 reps and vary my training loads from 50% to 85% of the 1RM (for compounds).


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## MDR (Sep 10, 2010)

I get a lot of tricep work on chest days, so if I was inclined to do tricep isolation work, it would make sense to do a bit after the major chest lifts, when the muscle is already fatigued.  Same thing for back and biceps, because my biceps get worked considerably during my back work.  Probably something you have already considered, but I like training the smaller body parts for a few sets after the major compound movements are finished, if at all.


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## jmesherghi (Sep 10, 2010)

sory lam im not good with knowlege with different muscle fibers altough i understand what they are i dnt nessarily know what the end result would mean? how would converting it into the different type of muscle fiber help acheive mass? sory for asking so many questions it just interestes me and knowlege is power


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## jmesherghi (Sep 10, 2010)

I wish i could do that with my tris MDR would make things alot simpler its just my form is so poor after all the heavy pressing movements form benching etc because my tris feel fatigued, i just cnt put in the right effort and from so my tris suffer thats why i have to feel its essential for me to train tris by themsevles


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## Phineas (Sep 10, 2010)

jmesherghi said:


> no the bench press sets do not include warm ups and all the sets on my bench i was looking to go near to failure at least, i was looking to go to absolute failure on the last to reps of 6
> 
> so then just 6 sets for triceps? i see and have reserached that a lot of pople will nomrally do 5 or 6 sets after training chest, however i will be training triceps by themselves so theres no previous stimulation of the tricep areas so i though that 10 sets would be a good bet?
> 
> also i have been looking to incorporate higher rep scemes, what benefits will doing lat raises have at say the 15 rep mark rather then the 10 to 12 rep mark?



Just because a lot of people might do however many sets doesn't mean that's the ideal way to train. At my old gym this is how all the guys I knew and saw regularly trained, and every time I go back there after the year since I was a permanent member they're still training the same way, lifting the same weights for the same rep ranges; they're not stronger, faster, bigger, leaner, or anything. It's very hard to make progress this way, or remain injury-free.

What do you mean by lat-raises? The lats don't raise objects -- they pull. do you mean lateral raises? Regardless, performing an exercise at 15 reps versus 12 won't make any difference aside from developing a little more endurance maybe. 

In my opinion you're overthinking rep ranges way too much. There are too many illogical arguments in internet and magazine bodybuilding articles out there on rep ranges that people completely misconstrue the whole concept of volume. There's no magic rep range for gaining muscle. Muscle development is purely diet.

3 rep sets will build muscle; 8 rep sets will build muscle; 15 rep sets will build muscle; hell, even 50 rep sets will build muscle -- so long as you're providing sufficient dietary resources to enable your body to carry out the necessary functions to create new tissue. 

of course, you need to provide stimulus to the muscles to trigger to them that they need to grow larger and stronger, but you also need to do it in such a way that they're actually convinced. Remember, your body doesn't want large muscles; muscle tissue requires more dietary resources than fat, or no excess weight at all, so biologically speaking muscle is counter-productive to survival. This is why it's so hard to build muscle. We have to be as efficient as possible to outwit evolution, and convince our brains to make the changes to our physique that we desire. The problem is it's not as simple as providing stimulus and eating a lot. You can't just tell the brain that you need to be able to perform this strenuous activity and expect it to adapt. The body wants to adapt if needed, but only if it's safe. The body will do all it can to keep things as simple and easy for survival as possible.

Enter the central nervous system (CNS). The CNS is the number enemy to the athlete, bodybuilder, powerlifter, or whoever you are if you're looking for strength/muscle gains. The CNS will either make or break your results. If you provide just enough stimulus to the muscles the CNS will respond by telling the brain that it needs to increase its muscles' output, and the brain will release growth hormones assuming sufficient dietary resources are provided. However, if you put too much work on the CNS's plate it will fatigue, and it will tell the brain the opposite -- that it's being hurt and to protect itself it needs to inhibit its muscles' output. This is muscular failure. It's your CNS telling your brain that this is too much, and it shuts off your muscles' motor units (nerve connectors where nerves from muscle fibres meet and are activated to contract). It's beneficial to occassioanally train to failure, as sort of a sudden "shock" to the CNS, but doing it too often will increasingly damange the CNS. This doesn't tell the body it needs to adapt and grow stronger; it tells the body it needs to preserve itself from future damage -- and will either prevent strengthening of the muscles or in some cases weaken the muscles.


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## jmesherghi (Sep 10, 2010)

good to know bout the rep ranges, erm you say that you shudnt go to failure all the time, i have always done this and everyone else that i know haas done this and have grown and got big so it can be done but what u mean is that if you didnt train to failure all the time u wud probaly see better results?


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## Phineas (Sep 10, 2010)

jmesherghi said:


> good to know bout the rep ranges, erm you say that you shudnt go to failure all the time, i have always done this and everyone else that i know haas done this and have grown and got big so it can be done but what u mean is that if you didnt train to failure all the time u wud probaly see better results?



Likely.

Some people can do regular failure training. Some people can't. However, even for the people who "see results" with it, (a) it doesn't mean it's the ideal way to train and (b) it's not very safe or healthy.

Beating your CNS to a bloody pulp on a regular basis won't always play out in negative ways immediately. Some people can get away without symptoms of overtraining, but problems could arise later in life.

It's just not a smart idea for the long run. Also, other people you've seen training this way might be heavily using supplements or performance enhancing drugs. Also, what is considered "good results" is very subjective. I've seen people use failure training when they first started, gained maybe 10lbs in a couple months, and thought they had discovered gold. But, it's well documented that (relative) beginners make the fastest gains due purely to neurological adaptation to a stimulus their bodies aren't used to.

Also, many of the guys who claim to have seen great results from failure training tend to see the results in the same regions: chest, shoulders, arms. Part of the reason for this could also be the imbalanced training they follow. Even if you're "overtraining" certain muscle groups, as most guys do with the aforesaid muscle groups, the body at least has extra building resources due to the lack of muscle breakdown going on in other regions of the body, like the back and legs -- which most guys tend to "undertrain". This is why you see so many chicken legs and pussy backs in gyms. These guys swear by their arm curls, chest flies, and shoulder presses because in a few years they've managed to grow 17-inch arms. Yeah, that's nice, but what do you expect when 80% of your training goes into those muscles? Their legs and back are absolutely embarrassing, but they don't mind. There are so many guys at my gym who have arms quite a bit bigger than mine, maybe 2 inches bigger. They probably think they're such hot shit, yet my legs are twice the size of their, my back trumps theirs in thickness and width, my chest is proportionately as big, and for the difference in size of our arms versus our training methods I don't think it's very impressive. It's taken those guys years and years to build big arms but nothing else from doing a shit ton of arm work. For me, it's been 2 years, going from a malnourished distance runner, training the second of those two years with absolutely no isolation work, and I've developed better than them in every region but the arms -- and even my arms are big and well proportioned (without any arm curls or tricep extensions). 

If you train with compounds your body will develop in proper, aesthetic proportions. Most guys' arms are disproportionate to the rest of their body. Isolation should be reserved for any muscle groups that, from a hypertrophy standpoint, are not responding as well as others (some people just have the genetics they have, you might not develop tricep mass as easily, for instance, or lateral delt mass, etc, then isolate them and it's all good) or, from a performance standpoint, are not strengthening as well as others (this is how powerlifters would use accessory isolation movements...maybe they need stronger triceps to help their bench lockout).


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