# Are Catholics Christian?



## TheGreatSatan (Dec 22, 2003)

Every Catholic I know says they are, but every Christian I ever talked to says no they are not.


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## Mudge (Dec 22, 2003)

They are not, but its a Christianity based religion. Catholicism though is seperate just are the Lutherans etc.

Or is this a trick question/opinion thing?

I think constant branching off only shows how people muck up religion, rewriting and interpreting things to thier own benefit. I wonder if the worst/best example are the Jehovas Witnesses.


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## Burner02 (Dec 22, 2003)

maybe they were methodists?


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## Mudge (Dec 22, 2003)

I am methodical


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## Rissole (Dec 22, 2003)

That bloody avatar is methodical Mudge


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## TheGreatSatan (Dec 22, 2003)

No, that's just funny.


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## Rissole (Dec 22, 2003)

Whats your defininition of a Christian TGS??


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## TheGreatSatan (Dec 22, 2003)

Goes to church that claims they're christian not catholic, mormon, baptists.  You know, sign out side says christian church.


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## Burner02 (Dec 22, 2003)

non-denominational?


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## TheGreatSatan (Dec 22, 2003)

Huh?


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## Rissole (Dec 23, 2003)

My interpretation of a Christian is anyone who has a relationship with JC, regardless of denomination.
If the truth of the Bible has been retarded by their denom for personal advantage then they lose that relationship, eg: Catholosism, Jehovas, Mormons, etc
I know alot of Catholics that say they are Catholic but never go to church. I also know alot of Catholics that love the Lord and are Christians in my book.
Who are people to judge anyway, only God can judge the heart


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## Burner02 (Dec 23, 2003)

good post, my friend!


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## TheGreatSatan (Dec 23, 2003)

I'm not bad at judging.


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## Rissole (Dec 23, 2003)

The Christians you know shouldnt be judging.


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## Rissole (Dec 23, 2003)

thanks B


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## Burner02 (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by TheGreatSatan *_
> I'm not bad at judging.


I'd like to judge a biini pageant personally..


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## TheGreatSatan (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Rissole *_
> The Christians you know shouldnt be judging.



Awww c'mon it's fun!


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## TheGreatSatan (Dec 23, 2003)




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## nikegurl (Dec 23, 2003)

i thought all religions that believed in JC = Christian.  and Catholic/Lutheran/Methodist etc were more specific sub categories under the big Christian umbrella.


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

When people refer to Catholics today, they often mean Roman Catholics. But, there are many other types of Catholics. Some are associated with cultural groups like Byzantine Catholics or Polish National Catholics while others such as Old Catholics span all cultural groups. 

While some groups are in union with Rome, others have been independently governed by their own bishops, in the tradition of the Eastern Orthodox church, for well over 200 years. 

The White Robed Benedictine Network is a Catholic community, outside the institutional church, dedicated to making the world a more compassionate place. Guided by its own Bishop/Abbott, it celebrates the same sacraments and follow the spirit of reforms initiated in Vatican Council II.


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## JJJ (Dec 23, 2003)

If you belive that Jesus died and was resurected then you are a christian. Atleast that is what Ive been taught in school. 
But there is a posibility that I was sleeping and dreamt it.


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## nikegurl (Dec 23, 2003)

what do you mean different catholics?  i've never heard that in my life.  i really think the term christian only means you believe in JC and then there are different christian faiths.

never heard of "different catholics"  ?


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

Being Catholic today means many things. Most importantly it continues to represent the faith community of Christians most identified with the celebration of the sacraments and its rich tradition of symbols and metaphors. Contemporary Catholic is a term which best describes those who continue to search for a non-judgmental, sacramental experience different from that offered by the institutional church.

Because these searchers have not found the kind of experience they want within traditional, institutional Catholicism many drift to other Christian communities but still miss the sacraments in their lives. 

Recognizing the need to fill a void in the lives of many, the White Robed Monks of St. Benedict, offer the sacraments in a non-judgmental Catholic experience. By celebrating the sacraments without question, the WRB hopes to bring unity without the stumbling block of uniformity. 

Uniformity of externals does not equate with the unity called for by Christ. 

During much of the first eleven hundred years after Jesus, there was only one church that developed different traditions. Everything from the way the Mass and sacraments were celebrated to the date of Easter and celibacy were interpreted differently. Even today, the Eastern and Western churches have many externals that are vastly different yet all celebrate the same sacraments and scriptures. 

The institutional church of today can be traced, in part, to ongoing disagreements over papal supremacy in the 12th century resulting in a schism with the Eastern church, reaction to the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century and the proclamation of papal infallibility in the 19th century which created further schisms. All these events speak to the confusion of unity with uniformity


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## BigBallaGA (Dec 23, 2003)

God is Dead

~Nietzsche


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

Here TGS...........

(just read it!!!)

A good example that explains the exact relationship between "communism" and "socialism" would be to examine the two terms "Catholic" and "Christian". Obviously, though they share a relationship, they are not interchangeable. You could for example, say that the Pope is a "Christian". But you could not say that Billy Graham is a "Catholic". 

Why? The two share certain basic beliefs, but differ upon certain specific issues. Fundamentally, Christians and Catholics believe in things like an all-powerful God, the authenticity of the Bible, and the divine resurrection of Jesus Christ. But many Christians would disagree with infant baptisms, the authority of priests to absolve sins, and the direct praying to saints - all things that are part of Catholicism. So while all Catholics are Christians, not all Christians are Catholics. Just as "Catholic" is a narrower and more specific definition of "Christian", "communism" is a narrower and more specific definition of "socialism".


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BigBallaGA *_
> God is Dead
> 
> ~Nietzsche




I'd hate to be you come judgement day!!!!!!


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## BigBallaGA (Dec 23, 2003)

judgement whatttttt

hahahahhahahaaa

theology is the past, science is the future !!!!


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BigBallaGA *_
> judgement whatttttt
> 
> hahahahhahahaaa
> ...


Dude, that was said like 70 years ago and now most scientist are turning to religion now!


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

Babs and Ris, I think you aptly answered this question.


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## BigBallaGA (Dec 23, 2003)

hahhahahahahahah pleaseeeeee 

this theology shit is getting old

theology is a figment of someones imagination put down on paper a long time ago........


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## maniclion (Dec 23, 2003)

Even Einstein beleived in God.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

Then leave the thread Bigballa!


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## Mudge (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BigBallaGA *_
> this theology shit is getting old
> 
> theology is a figment of someones imagination put down on paper a long time ago........



That is pretty much the definition of old, well done! I'll make sure to take the dictionary I bought you back to the store.


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## naturaltan (Dec 23, 2003)

I think the real question that has been overlooked is, are Christians catholic?


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 23, 2003)

First of all, TGS posts nothing but crap to rile everyone up anyway.  I mean crap, just look at his name for crying out load.  I have yet to read a post of his that has ever been encouraging in any way, shape, or form.  I find it hard to believe any Christains even give him the time of day. 

But there have been some interesting responses here....



> _*Originally posted by TheGreatSatan *_
> You know, sign out side says christian church.



That's idiotic.  Because it says it on the sign?  "Here is YOUR sign".



> _*Originally posted by Rissole *_
> My interpretation of a Christian is anyone who has a relationship with JC, regardless of denomination.
> 
> Who are people to judge anyway, only God can judge the heart



BINGO!!!!



> _*Originally posted by nikegurl *_
> i thought all religions that believed in JC = Christian.



Close but no cigar.  Simply believing IN does not cut it.  Read rissole's post.  It's based on a relationship. 



> _*Originally posted by JJJ *_
> If you belive that Jesus died and was resurected then you are a christian. Atleast that is what Ive been taught in school.
> But there is a posibility that I was sleeping and dreamt it.



Personal relationship is still key.



> _*Originally posted by nikegurl *_
> what do you mean different catholics?  i've never heard that in my life.  i really think the term christian only means you believe in JC and then there are different christian faiths.
> 
> never heard of "different catholics"  ?



Ever heard of different Jews?  Like Messianic Jews.  Or different Mormans?  Like the ones that still practice polygamy?  Or different Baptist?  eg. Southern Baptist, Conservative Baptist, etc.  There are probably lots of others you have never heard of.  So yes, different Catholics too.



> _*Originally posted by BigBallaGA *_
> God is Dead
> 
> ~Nietzsche



How bout coming up with something on your own. 



> _*Originally posted by BabsieGirl *_
> So while all Catholics are Christians, not all Christians are Catholics. Just as "Catholic" is a narrower and more specific definition of "Christian", "communism" is a narrower and more specific definition of "socialism".



Actually, not all Catholics are Christian.  Just like not all Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, are not Christian.  Sitting in a garage does not make me a car either.



> _*Originally posted by BigBallaGA *_
> theology is the past, science is the future !!!!



Belief in God was the foundation of science for most of the scientists whose principals are still in place today.

Learn to study on your own and quit buying everything you are taught in school.  Or better yet...go to class.



> _*Originally posted by BigBallaGA *_
> 
> theology is a figment of someones imagination put down on paper a long time ago........



And science in not?


Religion is simply nothing more than man attempting to justify himself before God.  As much I believe in is crucial to be associated with people of like faith, it is NOT the key to salvation.  So to answer the original question, there are Christian Catholics as well as non Christian Catholics.  That goes for ALL denominations.  Now when we are talking about religions that take away from the diety of Christ, they are NOT Christian...period.


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

Wasn't over looked...I explained it in black and white


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

Damn, BO............. How long did it take you to do all that?


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

whatever makes you sleep better BigBalla...

And no, Catholicism is not a Christian faith...

Now, that being said, an individual Catholic could be considered a Christian depending on their beliefs... but the Religion of Catholicism... in it's truest form, is Roman Catholic... and is not considered Christian... but we love them just the same!  just like Jesus does


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 23, 2003)

About five minutes Babsie.  Some things I have no trouble putting together. lol


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by HoldDaMayo *_
> whatever makes you sleep better BigBalla...
> 
> And no, Catholicism is not a Christian faith...
> ...





Please do some reading


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> About five minutes Babsie.  Some things I have no trouble putting together. lol



Do you feel better?


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

I have done some reading... as well as lived in a country that's 98% roman catholic, as well as studied religion in school, as well as had parents that ran a bible school in a foreign country, as well been a pastor's kid my whole life practically... 

Do I know everything? No... but I know something!!!!


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

What do you know?  Tell us...we wanna hear it......


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/Catholicism/catholic.htm

I'm going to go ahead and say, my statements about (Roman) Catholicism not being Christian are opinion based and not necessarily fact...


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

........you can do better than that.....

Is that all you got?


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## nikegurl (Dec 23, 2003)

a lot of what is being said here (by me included) is opinion based.   for instance a strict Roman Catholic will not agree with there being other "types" of Catholicism.  they will not acknowledge any of the stuff babsie wrote about.  they very clearly recognize only ONE catholic church.  

i'm NOT saying that's "correct".  i'm just saying to keep in mind a lot of this isn't fact.


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

Babs, I think that link is very solid... saves me from doing alot of typing too


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

All we have is opinion...


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

FAITH!!!


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## maniclion (Dec 23, 2003)

I beleive that science is a puzzle of clues God has left us to figure out.


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

Science has saved lives and changed the face of the world... i got love for science... but I don't feel that it has to interfere with a person's religious beliefs...


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by HoldDaMayo *_
> FAITH!!!




A little louder please....I can still barely hear you 

In response to NG, vs. what one says (here at IM) is Opinion...


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

Aside from everyone's opinions, from what I have been taught is that Catholicism fall under the "Churches" definition of a Christian religion. Overwise it would be a cult such as Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness which the "Church" does not recognise as being a "Christian" religion.


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

Honestly Rock, many Christians believe Catholicism is a cult... 

http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0436.htm


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## nikegurl (Dec 23, 2003)

babsie - my point was that some people seem to be forgetting that all they can state on a topic such as this is their opinion.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

Yes, some Christians do. But it is not categorised as a cult whereas the others are put in that category.


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

I know and I got your point sweetie...

I'm just picking on Hold.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

Holdamayo- that is someone's or Church's opinion on that website. Doesn't hold for much. Plus it's baptist, again for me means didly and I'm currently Baptist.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

BTW- Hey Babs!


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by rock4832 *_
> BTW- Hey Babs!




Hey baby


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

I can find you websites like that to support any stand Holdamayo. If it ends in .org, or.com it's opinion and not to necessarily be trusted as solid.


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## maniclion (Dec 23, 2003)

and if it ends in .gov it's pure fiction.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by maniclion *_
> and if it ends in .gov it's pure fiction.


Haha, you got that right!!


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

and if it ends in the toilet......you know it's dooooooo


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

Thanks Babs! That really helps illustrate the point!!


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

No problemo


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

you at work Babs?


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

pfff...yep


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

How much longer?


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

Rock, let me just say this, ther is no FACT when it comes to religion... it's all based and opinion, faith, interpertation, as well as personal conviciton whether divinely inspired or not...

Some books of the Bible are only letters written by a man to a church or group of people, just like a website... many pharicies at the time would also have passed these letters off as just a person's opinion... 

I just want to keep this in perspective...


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

I know this Mayo, I was a missionary for 4 1/2 years. The question was whether Catholics were under the umbrella of Christianity as seen by the church, as a whole not as individual people view it. And the answer is yes. We can debate the individual of it for many years and come to nothing. But as a whole Catholicism is seen as a Christian religion. That's all I'm saying.


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by rock4832 *_
> whether Catholics were under the umbrella of Christianity as seen by the church, as a whole not as individual people view it. And the answer is yes.



This is not true Rock... "as seen by the Church" 

1.  What Church?

2.  Where is this stated?

3.  Is this stated in the Bible?

4.  Christianity has MANY MANY MANY different branches, with many similarities and some differences, mostly minor... you simply cannot generalize that all christian sects or denominations believe Catholics are Christians... can you see how it's impossible to make that statement?


If you want to talk about Dictionary definition or Encylcopedia definition... that's really the only place you can say Catholicism is considered under the Christian umbrella... You and I simply don't have the means to make the statement for "the church" or all of christianity...


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## nikegurl (Dec 23, 2003)

the Roman Catholic church would deem Catholicism a Christian faith.  other Christian and non Christian belief systems may or may not agree.

how's that?


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## MikeKy (Dec 23, 2003)

This can be made very complex, but I think that is satan at work (the real satan).
Being a Christian is so simple, realize you are a sinner, that Jesus is the son of God, that he died the cross for your sin and was resurected on the third day. Then confess your sin to him and ask him to come into your heart and forgive you.
That's what is required. BUT, it CANNOT be a head thing, it HAS to be a heart thing.
Will you be perfect? No way. But you will be saved. And Christ is just to forgive you when you sin.
If a true conversion has taken place, you will not continue to live as you did. You will constantly strive to better.
You have to remember that you are a sinner and are not better than anyone else.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

http://www.namb.net/evangelism/other_religions.asp
There is a link from the Southern Baptist Convention that recognises Catholicism as a denomination of the Christian religion. That is one large section of the Church that ascribes to that.

If dictionaries (especially religious ones which they do) incorporate Catholicism into the christian religion then that is fine with me. 

Ultimately it doesn't matter because it comes down to each individual person, but trust me. I have worked in literally hundreds of Churches over the world, Protestant and Catholic (there is a difference there) and they see Catholicism as Christian!


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

and then there was light


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

Who ya talking to Babs?


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

myself......


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

wwjd


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

Oh, i see. and do you answer yourself?


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## MikeKy (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BabsieGirl *_
> wwjd



Exactly......


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

close


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by rock4832 *_
> Oh, i see. and do you answer yourself?




ummmm........no, maybe...sorta, yeah......dunno


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

I must admit, I never really liked that.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

That's why I like you!


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by rock4832 *_
> I must admit, I never really liked that.




So you're saying you disagree with self assurance?


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

What does that have to do with it?


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

lol


You're assuring yourself with yourself!


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

Your weird Babs!!


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

I know......Shhh....don't tell anyone though


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

It's our secret!!


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

ok


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

I accept Catholicism under the generic Christian umbrella in the same way I would accept Mormons...


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

Fine, that is you and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you there. However I think there is a huge difference between Mormons and Catholicism in how close to the truth they are.


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

lets not go there brother... Although, would you agree if it's not Biblical it shouldn't be a part of your beliefs?


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

What denomination are you Mayo?


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

Hey...I'm going home now......See ya..


HEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....what happened to your AVI


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## MikeKy (Dec 23, 2003)

Careful BabsieGirl there are people out there.


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

uhg.......why did you go and do that?  I'm gonna panic on my way home now......

Do you know there is a sniper on the loose.........


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## MikeKy (Dec 23, 2003)

Oh...sorry. Didn't mean to do that. Go ahead, I will pray a hedge around you.


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 23, 2003)

thanks....I;ll prolly need it.....

I cannot wait for that guy to be caught...............

K.......night all....and, I've put a new photo up in my gallery


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## Burner02 (Dec 23, 2003)

G'night, babs!
get home safe!


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## Burner02 (Dec 23, 2003)

hey...nice pic! very sha-wing!


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## Rissole (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> 
> Close but no cigar.  Simply believing IN does not cut it.  Read rissole's post.  It's based on a relationship.
> 
> ...



That was 'A' class post BO


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## Rissole (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by HoldDaMayo *_
> Rock, let me just say this, ther is no FACT when it comes to religion... it's all based and opinion, faith, interpertation, as well as personal conviciton whether divinely inspired or not...
> 
> Some books of the Bible are only letters written by a man to a church or group of people, just like a website... many pharicies at the time would also have passed these letters off as just a person's opinion...
> ...



I dont believe this statment to be correct, The whole bible is the Word of God. There is fact!! God is FACT, What Jesus did FACT!! i could go on but i really couldnt be bothered... too


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## MikeKy (Dec 23, 2003)

Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 
Revelation 22:19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

Rock, I'm a born again Christian... My family and I were missionaries with the Assembly of God... Pentacostal type church... currently I attend Calvary Chapel in Carlsbad... I like it very much...

Riss... prove it to me... without a shadow of a doubt... Believing in God takes FAITH, believing Jesus Died and was Resurrected takes FAITH, Believing the Bible is the Word of God... ALSO takes FAITH... you can BELIEVE it to be fact... but you can't prove it... otherwise we'd all be in Church every Sunday...


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## MikeKy (Dec 23, 2003)

*I'll post this and then take my suit off and put on some sweats.*

It's a Wednesday night and you are at a church prayer
meeting when somebody runs in from the parking lot
yelling, "Turn on a radio, turn on a radio!" 
And while the church listens to a little transistor
radio with a microphone stuck up to it, the
announcement is made: "Two women are lying in a Long
Island hospital dying from a 'mystery' flu." Within
hours it seems, this thing just sweeps across the
country. 
People are working around the clock trying to find an
antidote. Nothing is working! California, Oregon,
Arizona, Florida, Massachusetts. 
It's as though it's just sweeping in from the borders.
And then, all of a sudden, the news comes out. The
code has been broken. A cure can be found. A vaccine
can be made. It's going to take the blood of somebody
who hasn't been infected, and so, sure enough,all
through the Midwest, through all those channels of
emergency broadcasting, everyone is asked to do one simple thing: Go to your downtown hospital and have your blood type taken.
That's all we ask of you. When you hear the sirens go
off in your neighborhood, please make your way
quickly, quietly, and safely to the hospitals. 
Sure enough, when you and your family get down there
late on that Friday night, there is a long line, and
they've got nurses and doctors coming out and pricking
fingers and taking blood and putting labels on it. 
Your wife and your kids are out there, and they take
your blood type and they say, "Wait here in the
parking lot and if we call your name, you can be
dismissed and go home." 
You stand around, scared, with your neighbors,
wondering what in the world is going on and if this is
the end of the world. 
Suddenly a young man comes running out of the hospital
screaming. He's yelling a name and waving a clipboard.
What? He yells it again! And your son tugs on your
jacket and says, "Daddy, that's me." 
Before you know it, they have grabbed your boy. Wait a
minute! 
Hold on! And they say, "It's okay, his blood is clean.
His blood is pure. 
We want to make sure he doesn't have the disease. We
think he has got the right type." Five tense minutes
later, out come the doctors and nurses, crying and
hugging one another ... some are even laughing. It's
the first time you have seen anybody laugh in a week,
and an old doctor walks up to you and says, "Thank
you, sir. Your son's blood type is perfect. It's
clean, it is pure, and we can make the vaccine." As
the word begins to spread all across that parking lot
full of folks, people are screaming and praying and
laughing and crying. 
Then the gray-haired doctor pulls you and your wife
aside and says, "May we see you for moment? We didn't
realize that the donor would be a minor and we need
....... we need you to sign a consent form." You begin
to sign and then you see that the number of pints of
blood to be taken has been left blank. 
"H-how many pints?", you ask. 
And that is when the old doctor's smile fades and he
says, "We had no idea it would be little child. We
weren't prepared. I'm sorry sir, we need it all!" 
"But but .. You don't understand." 
"We are talking about the world here. Please sign. We
need it all!" 
"But can't you give him a transfusion?" 
"If we had clean blood we would. Can you sign? Would
you sign?" 
In numb silence, you do. 
Then they say, "Would you like to have a moment with
him before we begin?" 
Can you walk back? Can you walk back to that room
where he sits on a table saying, "Daddy? Mommy? What's
going on?" Can you take his hands and say, "Son, your
mommy and I love you, and we would never ever let
anything happen to you that didn't just have to be. Do
you understand that?" 
And when that old doctor comes back in and says, "I'm
sorry, we've GOT to get started! People all over the
world are dying. 
Can you leave?" 
Can you walk out while he is saying, "Daddy? Mommy?
Daddy? 
"Why, why have you forsaken me?" 
And then next week, when they have the ceremony to
honor your son some folks sleep through it ..... some
folks don't even come because they go to the lake or
the seashore ... some folks come with a pretentious
smile and just "pretend" to care. Would you want to
jump up and say, "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU
CARE?" 
Is that what GOD wants to say? "MY SON DIED FOR YOU.
DON'T YOU KNOW HOW MUCH I CARE?" 
"FATHER, Seeing it from YOUR eyes breaks our hearts.
Maybe now we can begin to comprehend the great Love
YOU have for us."


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## Rissole (Dec 23, 2003)

I'm the same denom as you Mayo....

I see it as nothing but fact...... You sound like your faith is yours....
my faith is a "gift from God, so that no one can boast" there's a fact, if God wasnt fact then there would be no faith.....
I can see what your saying, but to me, everything about God is fact


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## Rissole (Dec 23, 2003)

*Re: I'll post this and then take my suit off and put on some sweats.*



> _*Originally posted by MikeKy *_
> "FATHER, Seeing it from YOUR eyes breaks our hearts.
> Maybe now we can begin to comprehend the great Love
> YOU have for us."


Good thing i'm not God, cause the whole world woulda died.
I wouldn't give my son for anything....


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

I'm very glad to hear you guys speak with such conviction...


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## MikeKy (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by HoldDaMayo *_
> I'm very glad to hear you guys speak with such conviction...




Ditto....


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## RedDragon (Dec 23, 2003)

Yeah, I actually feel an extra connection with you guys now that I've never had. I to am a born again Christain. I won't go into what I believe personally cause that's not really important in the whole sceam of things. We shall just see in the coming year/centuries/whenever who is write or wrong. One way or another I'm willing to go the distance for my God, even if no one's curently trying to feed me to the lions.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 23, 2003)

How many Christians do we have on this site? Anybody do a tally?


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## RedDragon (Dec 23, 2003)

some one should. I am very curious now.


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## copen73 (Dec 23, 2003)

Catholics are Christians...they believe that JC is the way to salvation.  And that is the over definition of a Chiristian.  Babsiegirl I believe that you gave a great answer.


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## Pepper (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by rock4832 *_
> I have worked in literally hundreds of Churches over the world, Protestant and Catholic (there is a difference there) and they see Catholicism as Christian!



Sorry but this is not true. I'd say the opposite is true. 

But, as someone said, it all comes down to the individual's relationship. Protestant churchs are filled with people who are not really Christians, though they may think they are.


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by copen73 *_
> Catholics are Christians...they believe that JC is the way to salvation.  And that is the over definition of a Chiristian.  Babsiegirl I believe that you gave a great answer.



so what's a hail mary for then?

sorry bro, it's not really that simple... but I do believe it comes down to the individual... and that's about the bottom line


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## RedDragon (Dec 23, 2003)

Well all of this stuff is really just about translation anyways. The Catholics translate thing different then Prodestints. To be honest I'm not to big on confessing sins or praying to anything other than God all mighty but to each is own I guess. 
Belief in Christ however can't be the defining factor. I'm sure that the devil believes that Jesus is the son of God. I don't know, this subject reeks of touchiness. 
How ever to make things a bit more tangible. I think Billy Graham could take the Pope in a fight.


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by copen73 *_
> Catholics are Christians...they believe that JC is the way to salvation.  And that is the over definition of a Chiristian.



That is a foundational belief of many Christain based denominations, but in and of itself that will not make one a Christian...again, personal relationship.  For example, lets say you were baptized(sprinkled) as a baby and never again set foot in a church or ready a Bible.  In fact you were a despicable evil person inside and out.  But if someone asked "what religion are you", and you told them "Catholic", would that mean you are a Christian?  I don't think so.  Like I said earlier, this would apply not just to Catholics so I am in no way dissing the Catholics.  I'm just making a point based on your reply.  Being involved in a denomination makes no one a Christian in and of itself.   Christian (Little Christ) means to be Christlike.  Yes, many Christians fall short of this goal...myself included, but I do strive to be better.  Not just a better person(works)...that does not get you to heaven like many would like to believe.  "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- not because of works, lest any man should boast. ".  Eph.2:8-9  RSV


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## Rocco32 (Dec 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> Sorry but this is not true. I'd say the opposite is true.
> 
> But, as someone said, it all comes down to the individual's relationship. Protestant churchs are filled with people who are not really Christians, though they may think they are.


I'm sorry Pepper, and you say this from what personal experience? This is what I did. I'd like to know what expert experience you are pulling your opinion from.


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## Pepper (Dec 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by rock4832 *_
> I'm sorry Pepper, and you say this from what personal experience? This is what I did. I'd like to know what expert experience you are pulling your opinion from.



This is from my experience. I guess the best way to put it is this: all of the churches I have been a member of have had serious problems with the teachings of the Roman Catholics. Such that if a person were to follow Catholic teachings, they would not be saved. Keep in mind, this is THEIR opinion, not mine.

They would go on to say that individual Catholics are saved but that this is despite the teachings of the church.

I personally have issues with their teachings but am not sure they are severe enough to say they aren't Christian.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 24, 2003)

Yes, there are some Churches that would say that Pepper. But that is an individual Church opinion and you have to look if it's the preacher saying that or member of the Congregation. Most denominations of Churches follow the doctrines and rules set down from the Higher up Church. These are who says what is what and what I'm saying is they do consider Catholicism as part of the Christian religion and not a cult.

The Southern Baptist Convention which speaks for all Southern Baptist Churches also says that in order to be saved you must go through believers baptism. But many of the Churches under them, especially towards the north do not believe or teach that doctrine. But it is still put forward from their Mother Church. Does that make sense?


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 24, 2003)

rock are you referring to baptism my immersion?  That is not a requirement of salvation per the SBC.  That is part of a public profession of faith however and some may require it for active church membership.


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## nikegurl (Dec 24, 2003)

one of my biggest pet peeves in life (NOT directed at anyone in this thread.  it just got me thinking)

it makes me nuts when ANY religion claims to have the inside track to salvation.  it's so arrogant and presumptious (imho)

we are human.  we can only take our best shot at understanding the divine.  and to think we know who will be "saved" or found to be favorable in god's eyes is to forget the limits of our human condition.


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## maniclion (Dec 24, 2003)

Are catholics Christian?

Is the Pope Jewish?


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## MikeKy (Dec 24, 2003)

My feeling is that when you get to heaven, your going to be surprised to see who all is there. When my daughter was in 4th or 5th grade, she told a classmate that if she wasn't a Baptist, she couldn't go to heaven. We had a long talk and then went to the classmates home and had a long talk there. The kids parents with very thankful. It appears the little girl came home crying.
It never occurred to me she thought that. So it pays to learn what you can about other denominations.


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## Eggs (Dec 24, 2003)

Catholics do fall under the "Christian" umbrella.  That does not necessitate that from the perspective of a protestant, or lutheran or episcopalian that they will be going to heaven.

See, the conflict comes from the viewpoint of Protestants that we are saved by faith, not by works.  and that of the Catholics in which works are very much a part of their faith.  Of course, you never know quite what to expect from the Catholic church anymore 

As to anyone that says that they hate it that one person holds their beliefs true over anothers... well thats the whole idea behind belief.  If you dont believe it any more than anything else, then you are proposing that none of us truly have beliefs, but rather that we acknowledge Religion as an entity which whose end purpose is itself.  A very new age concept, but like most of new age concepts, its a connect the dots puzzle that is missing most of its dots, cognitively inadequate.  If you wish further proof of this, go to google and type in "Jedi Religion", and hopefully you will find the nut cases that are attempting to fly with their Jedi Powers mildly amusing.

Indeed, any person that truly has a belief and cares about anyone else would try to convince them that it is true.  Because dont we all want to know the truth?  And likewise want others to know the truth?  Well, most people do... I just search after the truth for mine own interests, and truly could not care if most others souls ended up in hell or whatever alternative you might find.

To say that you cannot hold your Religion in higher esteem than any other is more than anything an attempt to "stupidify" religion.  Why, if any religion is equally true, then why try to search for truth at all?  Is not truth evifent in everything then?  But its not, and to hold to this mindset is to find yourself devoid of truth in life... perhaps contentedly empty, but lacking none the less.

Pepper - Protestants believe that you are not a Christian unless you believe in Jesus and he washes your sins away so that you are presentable to God (the Trinity..).  Indeed, they believe him to be a filtered lens so that God cannot see your sins, because in their mind God cannot abide sin and thus could not abide us in our sinful form.  Is it not acceptable then that they would believe that somebody who did not believe this was not truly a Christian, and hence would not be going to heaven?  To dilute their beliefs and to say otherwise is to piss on the New Testament, which if you want to do so then you might find Judaism more to your liking, as they do not accept it either.  I'd suggest that you simply open your eyes and find a church that has fewer opinions, there are plenty out there in this day and age.  In fact, those are the kind I tend to go to.

Oh, and to say certain Catholics are saved is an adequate thought.  Because some Catholics believe that their way to Heaven is through Christ, and that they are saved by their faith and not by works... a gift its ben said.  So they would hence fit into the protestants concept of a true Christian, but still attend a Catholic church for cultural reasons.

Anyways, I'm not here to convince of the truth of one thing over another... simply to point out the mindset involved in this.  I could truly care less what religion anyone follows


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## Eggs (Dec 24, 2003)

Haha, the ones I like the best are the ones that believe the King James is God inspired and if you dont read that then you're going to hell.  Or those who think anything other than hymns are of the devil... etc.

Thats certainly not indicative of all Christians however.  All religions have their fanatics... I'm just thankful that Christians arent currently strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up Beverly Hills


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## MikeKy (Dec 24, 2003)

I like the KJV. King James translators were also great scholars, every bit as proficient in the Biblical languages as any of those who have come after them. They were very familiar with the great body of manuscript evidence, as well as all the previous translations. They worked diligently on the project (assigned to them by King James) for over seven years, completing it in the year 1611.

The professional qualifications of the translators were all extremely high. There were 54 scholars originally assigned to the project by King James, though some died early in the project. There were evidently 47 who were active throughout the project, all of whom were exceptionally well qualified both academically and spiritually.

The result of their consecrated labor was that the so-called "Authorized" version eventually displaced all those that had gone before and then has withstood the test of wide usage in all English-speaking countries ever since. To suddenly abandon it in just one over-stressed, pseudo-intellectual, largely apostate generation may well prove to be a decision with sad and entropic consequences.

The above was taken from
http://www.icr.org/bible/kjv.htm 

Having said that, I use a Bible that is both KJV and NIV. When your reading it, the KJV is on the left when open and NIV is on the right. Mine also has the reference notes where you can go back and verify what your taking from the text.
Some people have real trouble with the poetic language of the KJV, so this would help.


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 24, 2003)

Good words Eggs.


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## Eggs (Dec 24, 2003)

While I have to applaud King James for his efforts in publishing a well translated bible, just because it was well translated does not mean that it is adequaely worded for todays generation.  Indeed, should our children be forced to read all their school books in old English so they can enjoy the poetry of them?

To say that the King James was well written in 1611 does not confer on it the title of superior bible translaion.  Indeed, the NIV and NKJV are excellent, and there are a few other translations out there that are adequate.

If one, as a Christian, is going to state that a certain item is necessary (or the lack thereof) to be a Christian, they had damn well better have scripture to back it up.

I personally am tired of people adding their own little rules as it suits them, a definite tool of any well equiped legalist no doubt.  I like women in pants and shorts (and believe they dont belong barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen), I dont see any scriptural reasoning for not having a drink or two of wine, I  believe we can listen to lots of different kinds of music (unless that which is psychologically damaging), and lots more stuff.

If one is going to say they are of a certain religion, then by all means dont add to it... and if one doesnt follow it exactly, then do as I do and say that I believe in it, but that I'm a poor example of it.

The most important thing we do in Religion is look at it logically.  To do any less is to do it an injustice... and to not do so puts you at risk of doing alot of stupid things in the name of religion.  The world is full of stupid people, we dont need stupid religious people too.

Not pointing that at anyone, just writing...


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## MikeKy (Dec 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> While I have to applaud King James for his efforts in publishing a well translated bible, just because it was well translated does not mean that it is adequaely worded for todays generation.  Indeed, should our children be forced to read all their school books in old English so they can enjoy the poetry of them?


No, I don't favor forcing anyone to read the bible. I just trust the KJV's accuracy more than those that have come since. Man has the tendency to mold things to fit their lifestyle.



> To say that the King James was well written in 1611 does not confer on it the title of superior bible translaion. Indeed, the NIV and NKJV are excellent, and there are a few other translations out there that are adequate.



Agreed, as long as they take nothing away or add anything.



> If one, as a Christian, is going to state that a certain item is necessary (or the lack thereof) to be a Christian, they had damn well better have scripture to back it up.



If I made it sound as if I thought the KJV Bible was "Required", I'm sorry. That was not my intention.



> I personally am tired of people adding their own little rules as it suits them, a definite tool of any well equiped legalist no doubt. I like women in pants and shorts (and believe they dont belong barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen), I dont see any scriptural reasoning for not having a drink or two of wine, I believe we can listen to lots of different kinds of music (unless that which is psychologically damaging), and lots more stuff.



I have never read in the Bible that is was a sin to have a drink. It says "not to be drunk" So I guess I don't agree 100% with my chosen denomination. The Baptist voluntarily do not drink, but I think that is as much to keep the ones who couldn't control it away from it.



> If one is going to say they are of a certain religion, then by all means dont add to it... and if one doesnt follow it exactly, then do as I do and say that I believe in it, but that I'm a poor example of it.



Agreed. I will be the first to say I am a sinner. But I try not to.



> The most important thing we do in Religion is look at it logically. To do any less is to do it an injustice... and to not do so puts you at risk of doing alot of stupid things in the name of religion. The world is full of stupid people, we dont need stupid religious people too.



I take it you mean don't just follow blindly? I agree with that as well. When I read scripture, I sometimes read the same thing several times to be sure I get what I am supposed to.
When I sit is Church I keep my Bible open and read along. If I think the pastor strayed from what I am reading, I ask him about it after the service. Other times I research it at home. Usually I find out that he has studied it more and has a better grip on it than I got from the first reading.


I think you and I agree for the most part on this.

Merry Christmas


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## Pepper (Dec 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> 
> Pepper - Protestants believe that you are not a Christian unless you believe in Jesus and he washes your sins away so that you are presentable to God (the Trinity..).  Indeed, they believe him to be a filtered lens so that God cannot see your sins, because in their mind God cannot abide sin and thus could not abide us in our sinful form.  Is it not acceptable then that they would believe that somebody who did not believe this was not truly a Christian, and hence would not be going to heaven?  To dilute their beliefs and to say otherwise is to piss on the New Testament, which if you want to do so then you might find Judaism more to your liking, as they do not accept it either.  I'd suggest that you simply open your eyes and find a church that has fewer opinions, there are plenty out there in this day and age.  In fact, those are the kind I tend to go to.



Eggs that's a great post. 

As to the comment you directed towards me...I do not really disagree with you. You have touched on the exact beliefs of the Catholics that I am most troubled with. I guess what I have always wrestled with is at what point does bad theology become fatal to salvation? For example, I believe in predestination. I believe before the foundation of the Earth, God designated who would come to Him and who would not. Many do not believe this though I believe the New Testament is clear on this point. However, are they not saved because they are wrong on this point? 

A little bit of background, I belong to a church in the Presbyterian Church in America. This demominiation is about as conservative as they get. Growing up in that background, I guess I "rebel" a bit and wonder if they aren't being too conservative. My parents left this church because of this. I stayed because I'd prefer to be pulled in that direction instead of being pulled to be more liberal.

I think my post may be a bit misleading. I was simply trying to say that I was not ready to say Catholics aren't saved. I was not saying that they were.


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## Pepper (Dec 24, 2003)

As to the translations of the Bible. I am seriously considering studying Hebrew. Many of the debates that I have either been involved in or witnessed came down to the English translation of a Hebrew word that may or may not be accurate.

A pastor once read me a passage in Song of Solomon that was horribly mistranslated apparently b/c it was so sexual. Well, I'd prefer to read it as it was written, not translated to tone it down!


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## Eggs (Dec 24, 2003)

Ah, okay Pepper, gotcha.

Personally I think that predestination has little impact in the scheme of things.  The biggest problem that comes to light from this is that people use it as an excuse that if God knows whats going to happen before hand, then we do not truly have free will.

I do not at all believe this to be the case however.  If I see someone fall off the top of the SEARs tower I know they are going to die, but that doesnt mean that I am in any way interfering with it happening.  The same if predestination is true... because God knows something is going to happen, that doesn not remove free will from the process.

One might argue that it is not fair that God would stand idly by and allow people to die unsaved, but in fact these people are failing to understand the connection between this and free will. If we were given free will, then there is no stepping in to meddle, predestination or not.

Either way, I dont think that certain topic is one you have to worry about.  However, I do agree that it is important to know the point of "when bad theology becomes fatal to salvation."  This is a twisted subject to be sure, and I'm not quite sure where I stand on it.  One part of me says that if you are a Christian then your sins are forgiven and the only truly necessary part if your belief in Chist as savior.  Then another part of me tells me that if someone is truly a Christian then they cannot help but become Christ like, and in turn dont really sin anymore (on purpose at least).  My example for this would be Paul... but perhaps that is too high a standard as not many can obtain it.  Either way, if the last is the case, then it seems I am no a true Christian and destined to burn.

I think that studying Hebrew would be the best if you wish to study the scripture more in-depth.  As you said, there are inaccuracies inherent in all translations, whether due to the times or simply modesty.  Personally, I think that Soloman, with as many wives as he had, was much less sexual in the Song of Soloman than he truly would have been.  That one must have been toned down 

Either way, good luck with that and have a Merry Christmas Pepper.


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## Eggs (Dec 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MikeKy *_
> No, I don't favor forcing anyone to read the bible. I just trust the KJV's accuracy more than those that have come since. Man has the tendency to mold things to fit their lifestyle.



That is true... and what life style did those in the 1611 have that they shaped the bible to?  Because something is older doesnt mean it is more accurate... I agree that is had a good pedigree, but devoid of translating inconsistincies it is not.



> Agreed, as long as they take nothing away or add anything.



From the Greek/Hebrew/etc orginal languages, right?  Not from the KJV.



> If I made it sound as if I thought the KJV Bible was "Required", I'm sorry. That was not my intention.



No you didnt,  perhaps I pressed this point a bit much... it was my original one and I was just restating it.



> I have never read in the Bible that is was a sin to have a drink. It says "not to be drunk" So I guess I don't agree 100% with my chosen denomination. The Baptist voluntarily do not drink, but I think that is as much to keep the ones who couldn't control it away from it.



I was a Baptist for several years as a child, and to ask most Baptists at that time about drinking and most would not think it voluntary, but rather a sin.  Most Baptist churches still believe this as far as I know.  Which is one of the problems I have with denominations... they tend to prefer their own religion to Christianity.  Now that seems harsh, but I mean it in the gentlest of ways of course.



> Agreed. I will be the first to say I am a sinner. But I try not to.



In most things I do as well... but I have to admit there are some things which I say "if you love me you will do so even though I dont do what you say in a few things".  I truly liken it to a parent child relationship.  I might love my father, but there are some things that I'm not going to do exactly as he says.  Haha, I know... walking on thin ice there religiously



> I take it you mean don't just follow blindly? I agree with that as well. When I read scripture, I sometimes read the same thing several times to be sure I get what I am supposed to.
> When I sit is Church I keep my Bible open and read along. If I think the pastor strayed from what I am reading, I ask him about it after the service. Other times I research it at home. Usually I find out that he has studied it more and has a better grip on it than I got from the first reading.



Yep, I think that blindly following anything is bad.  If someone is willing to do that, then they might as well be in any religion, because it really has no meaning to them except that it provides them with a certain something that they are lacking.  In many cases, guidance.

I also mean that instead of attacking every religion and cutting them off, one should be able to have rational discussions with those of other religions.  Would we have been given minds if we were not mean to use them?  We are much more than simple animals, we need to act accordingly.

Yep, we do agree on quite a few points.


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## WebMonkey (Dec 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BigBallaGA *_
> hahhahahahahahah pleaseeeeee
> 
> this theology shit is getting old
> ...




I should have known that you're an Atheist by reading your other posts...lmfao


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## TheGreatSatan (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> First of all, TGS posts nothing but crap to rile everyone up anyway.  I mean crap, just look at his name for crying out load.  I have yet to read a post of his that has ever been encouraging in any way, shape, or form.  I find it hard to believe any Christains even give him the time of day.



Like you know anything.  As a matter offact, Ihave a brother who's a christian freak.   Also, read my first post in this thread.  What exactly riles people up?  It's a simple question.  If you don't like my threads then don't read them.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 26, 2003)

I like your threads TGS! I  think its good to discuss things!


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## Pepper (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by rock4832 *_
> I like your threads TGS! I  think its good to discuss things!



I can't get past his name. Honoring Satan is just not right, even in jest. It's intended to be offensive.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> I can't get past his name. Honoring Satan is just not right, even in jest. It's intended to be offensive.


I understand that Pepper! I felt the same way at first, but the more I've talked with him I've gotten past his screenname. I'm not speaking for you, but it's not my place to judge, especially concerning a screenname. If that is really what he believes, that's what he believes. It doesn't change my passion for Christ one bit and I don't think Christ would shun him because of that.


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## katie64 (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by rock4832 *_
> I understand that Pepper! I felt the same way at first, but the more I've talked with him I've gotten past his screenname. I'm not speaking for you, but it's not my place to judge, especially concerning a screenname. If that is really what he believes, that's what he believes. It doesn't change my passion for Christ one bit and I don't think Christ would shun him because of that.


Plus, do you ever wonder why he brings up these topics so often, maybe Christ is working through us to him  

I think the latter part of this thread has been great, lots of openness with your hearts, very nice for a change, nice to see so many christians here too


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## bandaidwoman (Dec 26, 2003)

I concur with babsie.  It's hard to get by the fact that  the collective body of Christians throughout the world and history existed for the  first  thousand years to 1500 years as the   Catholic Church.


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## Pepper (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bandaidwoman *_
> I concur with babsie.  It's hard to get by the fact that  the collective body of Christians throughout the world and history existed for the  first  thousand years to 1500 years as the   Catholic Church.



Yes right up until Martin Luther took issue with many teachings of the Catholic church that are not Biblical. For example, salvation through works.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 26, 2003)

Or absolution of your sins through money!


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## Rocco32 (Dec 26, 2003)

Or not reading the Bible for yourself


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## RedDragon (Dec 26, 2003)

> First of all, TGS posts nothing but crap to rile everyone up anyway. I mean crap, just look at his name for crying out load. I have yet to read a post of his that has ever been encouraging in any way, shape, or form. I find it hard to believe any Christ



That was a tad harsh bro, I mean I'm big into jesus but I'm not going to outcast TGS because of it. That's part of what being christain is all about. We're like the army, we'll take anyone. LOL


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## TheGreatSatan (Dec 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by katie64 *_
> Plus, do you ever wonder why he brings up these topics so often, maybe Christ is working through us to him



 

No, actually, the reason I started the thread is because of my brother.  He is a christian.  He tells me that Catholics are not Christian because they worship Mary and that they are going to hell too.  But then he tells me what a great man the Pope is.  The Pope is the leader of the Catholic church right?  So what's the adoration with the Pope about??


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## RedDragon (Dec 26, 2003)

Well I guess you can be a great man without being christain. I know this guy who is a through and through muslem but I have to admit he's been through alot and is one hell of a man. Even if I believe he would go to hell if he died today.


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## TheGreatSatan (Dec 26, 2003)

I can't wait to meet him!


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## TheGreatSatan (Dec 26, 2003)

Now I just gotta figure out how to get all those virgins when I die.


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## TheGreatSatan (Dec 26, 2003)

without becoming Muslim.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 26, 2003)

Yeah, I think you'll have plenty to worry about when you die TGS, IN HELL!!!


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## TheGreatSatan (Dec 27, 2003)

For you.


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## TheGreatSatan (Dec 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> I can't get past his name. Honoring Satan is just not right, even in jest. It's intended to be offensive.




In jest?  It's totally real.


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## TheGreatSatan (Dec 27, 2003)

Pushin' rock to page 3!


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## Rocco32 (Dec 27, 2003)

You didn't push me anywhere TGS!


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## katie64 (Dec 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by TheGreatSatan *_
> 
> 
> No, actually, the reason I started the thread is because of my brother.  He is a christian.  He tells me that Catholics are not Christian because they worship Mary and that they are going to hell too.  But then he tells me what a great man the Pope is.  The Pope is the leader of the Catholic church right?  So what's the adoration with the Pope about??


I'm not catholic, and the Pope is human..........nothing more.


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## TheGreatSatan (Dec 27, 2003)

and really old.


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## katie64 (Dec 27, 2003)

Many people have great unquestioned faith in God and Jesus Christ, it doesn't make them superior, and we are not to idolize anyone of this world in that nature.


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## MikeKy (Dec 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by TheGreatSatan *_
> 
> 
> He tells me that Catholics are not Christian because they worship Mary and that they are going to hell too.  But then he tells me what a great man the Pope is.  The Pope is the leader of the Catholic church right?  So what's the adoration with the Pope about??



The Catholics pray to Mary, to have her son "Jesus",  forgive their sins. As a Baptist, I don't believe, if you have a relationship with Jesus, you need anyone as a go between. Having said that many Catholics have that relationship and believe that when they are asking Mary to interceed, they are in fact talking to Jesus. After all, he knows your heart.
The Pope is simply the leader of the Catholic Church. They are expected to have an understanding of the scripture. After all, if all you do is speak to God and pray you should have some insight. I'm not an authority om the Pope, but thats my understanding.


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by RedDragon *_
> That was a tad harsh bro, I mean I'm big into jesus but I'm not going to outcast TGS because of it. That's part of what being christain is all about. We're like the army, we'll take anyone. LOL



Sometimes the truth IS harsh bro.  Just do a search.


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by rock4832 *_
> I understand that Pepper! I felt the same way at first, but the more I've talked with him I've gotten past his screenname. I'm not speaking for you, but it's not my place to judge, especially concerning a screenname. If that is really what he believes, that's what he believes. It doesn't change my passion for Christ one bit and I don't think Christ would shun him because of that.



Matthew 7:6 - Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you.


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## zwoof (Dec 27, 2003)

Christianity breaks into two "major" groups......

CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANTS

So.....yes, catholics are christians

Don't take my word for it.......Look it up on the internet


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 27, 2003)

THe internet? ROFLMAO...now there's an authority. lol

BTW, welcome to IM zwoof...even if you are a Texan.


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## zwoof (Dec 27, 2003)

LOL......Thanks for the welcome Bustinout! This just seemed like such a simple question (and I'm not real religious either). And you're right, you can't always trust everything you read on the on the "NET"!! Here's a few definitions I picked up off Encarta....MSN's Internet Encyclopedia.

Roman Catholic Church, the largest single Christian body, composed of those Christians who acknowledge the supreme authority of the bishop of Rome, the pope, in matters of faith. The word catholic (Greek katholikos) means ???universal??? and has been used to designate the church since its earliest period, when it was the only Christian church. The Roman Catholic Church regards itself as the only legitimate inheritor, by an unbroken succession of bishops descending from Saint Peter to the present time, of the commission and powers conferred by Jesus Christ on the 12 apostles. The church has had a profound influence on the development of European culture and on the introduction of European values into other civilizations. Its total membership in the late 1990s was about 1 billion (about 52 percent of the total number of affiliated Christians, or 16 percent of the world population). The church has its greatest numerical strength in Europe and Latin America but also has a large membership in other parts of the world.


Protestantism, one of the three major divisions of Christianity, the others being Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Protestantism began as a movement to reform the Western Christian church in the 16th century, resulting in the Protestant Reformation, which severed the reformed churches from the Roman Catholic Church. The declared aim of the original reformers was to restore the Christian faith as it had been at its beginning, while keeping what they thought valuable from the Roman Catholic tradition that had developed during the intervening centuries.

Geeze.....looks like there were three major divisions instead of two! I stand corrected!!

BTW....wherebouts do you hail from BO?


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 27, 2003)

I'm in AZ.  What part of TX you from?  I used to do a bit of fishing there.


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## zwoof (Dec 27, 2003)

Fishing? Now we're talking.......I do quite a bit of that myself! I'm in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area. A suburb just outside of Dallas. I do alot of fishing in East Texas. What kind of fishing did you do?


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 28, 2003)

Bass fishing at Lake Fork and Sam Rayburn.  Also like fly fishing.


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## Burner02 (Dec 28, 2003)

the last time I went fishing, the only thing biting was the mosquittos...


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## RedDragon (Dec 30, 2003)

> Sometimes the truth IS harsh bro.



I get what you mean dude. But we've got to remember that Gondi himself became hindu because he was kicked out of a christian church. Which in our beliefs sent alot of people to hell. Besides TGS doesn't seem to be causing any trouble at the moment anyways.


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## TheGreatSatan (Jan 3, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by RedDragon *_Besides TGS doesn't seem to be causing any trouble at the moment anyways.


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## Rocco32 (Jan 3, 2004)

LOL you crack me up TGS!!


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## Mordred (Jan 3, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by maniclion *_
> Even Einstein beleived in God.



I realize that this is not directly related to the discussion at this point, but I have just recently started lurking again and every time I see a statement that I know to be false I feel compelled to challenge it.

Besides the obvious fact that this is an appeal to authority and pretty much meaningless, it is also untrue...at least and especially in the way that is was intended.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein

When Einstein did refer to a god in his writings and speech it is fairly clear in context that he is referring to nature or the universe as god in line with the philosophy of Spinoza and not an actual entity of any form.  When he said God does not play dice it was just an elegant way of expressing his disbelief in the existance of randomness in the universe, not a statement that an omnipotent being didn't like playing yahtzee.

Now you know, and knowing is...

please continue the interesting yet pointless semantic argument


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## TheGreatSatan (Jan 3, 2004)

While I'm cutting my god is


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