# Protein shake. Is it neccessary?



## Call of Ktulu (Sep 21, 2011)

Do you need a protein shake after you workout? Is food just as good or milk just as good for a protein source after a workout? I'm asking because protein shakes are expensive after a while.


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## PushAndPull (Sep 22, 2011)

A person buys a supplement because certian claims are made about it.
The person takes the supplement as directed and does not see the desired results.
Two possible outcomes here
1. The person stops pruchasing the product since it did not deliver on it's claims.
2. The person somehow rationalizes that the product is working and continues to purchase it.

You're a number two guy because:
You're asking a question that you should already know the answer too.
What sort of additional gains have you noticed or not noticed since you started taking the post shake?
Have you tried eating a meal instead to see if there is any difference in gains?
If everyone says to take it, will you? Even if it doesn't deliver on it's claims.
Maybe it's time to grow up and decide for yourself.


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## OrbitNutrition (Sep 22, 2011)

Call of Ktulu said:


> Do you need a protein shake after you workout? Is food just as good or milk just as good for a protein source after a workout? I'm asking because protein shakes are expensive after a while.


Only if you dont have time to cram a meal in.


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## gearin up (Sep 22, 2011)

OrbitNutrition said:


> Only if you dont have time to cram a meal in.


^^^^^ or if you just need a stripped down pure protein source because you are in a cutting and dont want the fats and/or sodium that usually go along with protein from whole foods. There are also liquid protein shots that cost about 2 bucks a serving which isnt too bad on a budget.


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## troubador (Sep 22, 2011)

I figured it up the other day when compared gram to gram(of protein) Optimum Nutrition whey's cost is equivalent to chicken breast at approximately $3 per lb. Which is pretty cheap for chicken breast, sometimes you can find it for $2/lb. Also ON's whey is just a little over $.50 per serving (24g protein). IMO whey is still a cheap source of protein in addition to being convenient.


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## gamma (Sep 22, 2011)

protein is protein , its not  like its gonna make you grow jus by taking it . key word is supplement   food is always better, but like the others have said when you can fit a meal in drink a shake. plus the ol lady would rather me buy protein powder because it keeps food cost down.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Sep 22, 2011)

*Chocolate Milk*



Call of Ktulu said:


> Do you need a protein shake after you workout? Is food just as good or milk just as good for a protein source after a workout? I'm asking because protein shakes are expensive after a while.



*Chocolate Milk*

Chocolate milk has been shown to be a good post workout beverage. 

Chocolate Milk Gives Athletes Leg-up After Exercise, Says University of Texas at Austin Study | News

Kenny Croxdale


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## pebble (Sep 22, 2011)

Call of Ktulu said:


> Do you need a protein shake after you workout? Is food just as good or milk just as good for a protein source after a workout? I'm asking because protein shakes are expensive after a while.





Kenny Croxdale said:


> *Chocolate Milk*
> 
> Chocolate milk has been shown to be a good post workout beverage.
> 
> ...



My protein shakes cost less than what chocolate milk does.  And that is if I match grams of protein and grams of CHO.  

But chocolate milk tastes delicious. 

Here is the math.

Each 250ml glass of choc milk has about 9gs of protein and 28 grams of carbs. I get 4l of chock milk on sale for $4.50.  That means I pay about 4.50 for 144g of protein and 448g of CHO.  

I pay about $120 for 50lbs of protein mix (50% concentrate,  25% isolate 25% hydro).  Lets call it 22.5 kg or 22500g.  so about 0.54  cents a g. Thats about $0.77 for 144g of protein.

I pay $4  a kg for flavoured sugar.  so that works out to be 0.4 cents a g.  That is about $1.80 for 448g of CHO.


That means I pay 450 for 4l of choc milk or 2.57 for the same amount of protein and cho in supplement forum.  

I do lose the fats, and other benefits milk has to offer, but enough studies have shown that pro + cho works great after workout.  And heck at the price I pay I can afford to add an extra omega 3 pill into my diet and still come out ahead.

In no way am I reccomending avoiding whole foods, but my point is supplements are not that expensive when you buy smart (and break it down to the cost per gram compared to whole food)  they can save you money and have their place in a healthy diet.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Sep 22, 2011)

pebble said:


> My protein shakes cost less than what chocolate milk does.  And that is if I match grams of protein and grams of CHO.
> 
> But chocolate milk tastes delicious.
> 
> ...



*More Math*

Like you I am a great shopper.  However, I have yet to find proeint that cheap...$120 for 50 lbs.   

*$2.40 Per Pound*

That means you protein is $2.40 per pound.  

*Hard To Believe*

Where do you find it for $2.40 a pound (which would include tax and shipping)? 

Kenny Croxdale


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## pebble (Sep 22, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> *More Math*
> 
> Like you I am a great shopper.  However, I have yet to find proeint that cheap...$120 for 50 lbs.
> 
> ...




I buy bulk unflavoured.  I get it from a local supplier.  He buys it in bulk from trueprotein.com, I think.  He gets a better price than they offer on their site because of how much he purchases. Last time I purchased I bought 100lbs.  That was about 2 years ago, so I cannot say his prices are still the same.


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## FitnessFreek (Sep 22, 2011)

Necessary...no....Beneficial...Yes. You make the choice and see if real food works just as good. Personally, I'll stick to protein shakes.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Sep 22, 2011)

pebble said:


> I buy bulk unflavoured.  I get it from a local supplier.  He buys it in bulk from trueprotein.com, I think.  He gets a better price than they offer on their site because of how much he purchases. Last time I purchased I bought 100lbs.  That was about 2 years ago, so I cannot say his prices are still the same.



*Good for you. * 

I am impressed and wish I had a friend in the business.

*$6 Per Pound*

I am a great shopper and these days if you can find get it for just under $6 a pound is geat.

*Protein Prices Going Up*

The problem is that protein prices are going up world wide.  So, while your math's on the money, it is based on old information.  Great job on breaking it down!

*Whey Protein 40 cents Per 24 Grams*

If you got a great deal today, the cost of 24 grams of whey protein is 40 cents plus.  

That doesn't include a carb mix such as dextrose, maltodextrin or waxy maze, ete.  

*Milk Protein 46 cents Per 24 Grams*

I just picked up a gallon of milk for $2.50 per gallon.  That means 24 grams of protein comes in at 46 cents. 

*Chocolate Milk*

If you add in your own chocolate mix, Chocolate Milk is about 65 cents per 24grams of protein     ($3.50 per gallon) 

*Carbs For Insulin Spike*

However, milk and chocolate milk provide a nice insulin spike that helps recovery.  

*Break Even*

So at this point, the cost about even between the two. 

Kenny Croxdale


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## dogsoldier (Sep 22, 2011)

Nothing replaces food.  But when cutting or like me, too busy at work to sit down and eat 4 times during the work day, protein powder covers a bunch of bases.


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## caaraa (Sep 22, 2011)

You make the choice and see if real food works just as good.


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## oufinny (Sep 22, 2011)

Shakes are meant for the times when whole food is not an option or the best choice, for me that would be before a workout as my stomach does not like whole food pre-workout.


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## JoeClyde (Sep 23, 2011)

Great Thread.  This is why I'm glad I joined the forum.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Sep 23, 2011)

*Manipulating Insulin*



Call of Ktulu said:


> Do you need a protein shake after you workout? Is food just as good or milk just as good for a protein source after a workout? I'm asking because protein shakes are expensive after a while.



Ktula,

*Post Workout Beverage/Meal*

What you want in a beverage/meal is high glycemic index and/insulin index foods.  These foods trigger insulin release.  

Google Glycemic Index Foods for more information on what they are.  

*Insulin*

Insulin may be the most anabolic hormone in the body. 

*Non-Discrimination*

Unfortunately, insulin does not discriminage what it builds. In other words it builds muscle and fat.  

*Harnessing Insulin The Muscle Building Hormone. *

After a workout, insulin promotes muscle growth and recovery.  It shuttles nutrients to the muscle and allows your muscles to recover faster.  

*Spiking Insulin*

That means after your workout you want to spike insulin levels with high glycemic and/or insulin index beverages or foods.  

Protein need to be part of the beverage or meal...preferrably a protein that is quickly digested, such as whey. 

*Milk Protein*

The composition of milk is 20% whey and 80% caseinate.  Thus, it provide you with whey (quickly digested protein) and caseinate (time released protein).  

*Real Food Post Workout*

If you are going to consume real food post workout, you want some type of high glycemic index and/or insulin index carbohydrates.  

*Junk Food*

Ironically, this is when bad foods are actually good for you.  Some of the best high glycemic index foods are junk foods.  

*Pizza And...*

One of the best examples of a good post workout real food meal would be a pizza and coke or beer.  

*Insulin The Fat Making Hormone*

The dark side of insulin is that it is also a fat making hormone.  

Outside of the post workout window, insulin shifts from being more of a fat building/fat storage hormone.  

*"Food is the ultimate drug."* Dr Barry Sears/The Zone Diet

Manipulating insulin release can be an effective tool in building muscle.  

However, indiscrimately spiking insulin outside of the post workout wiindow is going to increase your body fat moreso than muscle.  

In other words, eating junk food later in the day isn't a good idea. 

*Nutrient Timing*/Dr John Ivy

One of the simplest, best book on this is Nutrient Timing.  It provide you with easy to understand information and a plan on how to manipulate insulin to increase muscle mass while minimizing fat. 

You can find a used copy one line for around $10.

Kenny Croxdale


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## juggernaut (Sep 23, 2011)

I hate milk, my chief reason for using whey after a workout. But, I've since used All in 1 as my definitive post workout drink. That being said, chocolate milk refreshes you far more effectively than gatorade or water. 
You don't need a protein drink, but you need post workout nutrition. Supplements are not the end-all-be-all, but they are more convenient than cooking up chicken or steak. Plus in some cases, they're cheaper.


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## Chrisotpherm (Sep 23, 2011)

For me it is easier to grab the protein shakes and go.  I take about three scoops along with 1/2 cup oatmeal and get on with my day.  I would like as those above have suggested to eat a good solid meal for the stomach.  It seems after an hour of consuming a shake I am right back being hungry do to it not being a solide but liquid form which shoots through the system quick.  Due to the body not having to do much work to digest it, and also doesn't force your metabolism to work harder.  I do 
recommend both whey and casin protein IMO.


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## juggernaut (Sep 23, 2011)

Chrisotpherm said:


> I do
> recommend both whey and casin protein IMO.



That's good advice.


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## the_warchief (Sep 23, 2011)

The digestive tract is a very vascular system. Supplementing a protein shake with ha High GI food after a workout is always the way to go (like a banana). This will allow for easier absorption of the nutrients. I think it is something beneficial but not necessarily detrimental to go without. Just make sure you get high protein and high carb.


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## Call of Ktulu (Sep 23, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> I hate milk, my chief reason for using whey after a workout. But, I've since used All in 1 as my definitive post workout drink. That being said, chocolate milk refreshes you far more effectively than gatorade or water.
> You don't need a protein drink, but you need post workout nutrition. Supplements are not the end-all-be-all, but they are more convenient than cooking up chicken or steak. Plus in some cases, they're cheaper.


 Thanks but how long do you have to get the post workout meal in your system? An hour?


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## juggernaut (Sep 23, 2011)

Call of Ktulu said:


> Thanks but how long do you have to get the post workout meal in your system? An hour?



Last time I read, 30 minutes.


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## pebble (Sep 23, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> Last time I read, 30 minutes.



The top protein guys say before workout or hour after workout.  

From a post I made yesterday.  It has info about what to drink and when to drink it.



pebble said:


> First off during RT cortisol rises, you can defend against this with CHO (causes insulin  spike which cause a shift from catabolism to anabolism therefore less muscle break down).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## packers6211 (Sep 23, 2011)

You take a person that eats solid diet and then adds protein in to his diet for say a shake in the morning or casein shake at night and watch and see if he recovers more and begins to feel stronger. Sure food is the best thing to use for you main source of power, but more then countless studies will show adding protein to the diet is benefical. Now your companies that over sell their high price items I stay away from. However there are several protein powders that are effective and no hard on the wallet. Orbitnutrition has a wide variety. Also I gurantee if you did a honest poll in the forums more lifters take protein shakes then not.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Sep 24, 2011)

*Orbit Pricing*



packers6211 said:


> You take a person that eats solid diet and then adds protein in to his diet for say a shake in the morning or casein shake at night and watch and see if he recovers more and begins to feel stronger. Sure food is the best thing to use for you main source of power, but more then countless studies will show adding protein to the diet is benefical. Now your companies that over sell their high price items I stay away from. However there are several protein powders that are effective and no hard on the wallet. Orbitnutrition has a wide variety. Also I gurantee if you did a honest poll in the forums more lifters take protein shakes then not.



Packers,

*Hard On Your Wallet*

Your right, the products many companies do more for their bottom line than your wallet. 

*Orbit Nutrition*

Orbit Nutrition certainly sells a wide variety of products.  However, many of their products produce results for their bank account while depleting yours. 

*Protein Supplements*

Their protein supplement line is about average on pricing.

*"There ain't no free lunch." *

There are some good deals on protein supplements if you shop around.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## PushAndPull (Sep 24, 2011)

packers6211 said:


> Also I gurantee if you did a honest poll in the forums more lifters take protein shakes then not.



Besides being a shitty at spelling what would this prove?


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## NeilPearson (Sep 24, 2011)

Call of Ktulu said:


> Do you need a protein shake after you workout? Is food just as good or milk just as good for a protein source after a workout? I'm asking because protein shakes are expensive after a while.



As long as you are getting your protein it doesn't really matter what the source is


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## packers6211 (Sep 24, 2011)

lol wow. I'm saying there are some good protein powders that help aid in one's total amount they need daily. I love steak and chicken just like most lifters do, but I also work 10 hr shifts and have two kids in sports. So a protein shake to have in need isn't a bad idea and doesn't make me go broke. Funny how on every forum you will go to there's countless protein threads.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Sep 25, 2011)

*NOT All Proteins Are The Same!*



NeilPearson said:


> As long as you are getting your protein it doesn't really matter what the source is



*Protein Soures DO Matter*

Not all proteins are created equal.  

Various method are utilized to determine the quality of proteins. 

1) Protein Efficience Ratio

2) Biological Value

3) Net Protein Utilization

*Animal Proteins*

Animal source of protein are better than plant source.  

*Anabolic Protein*

Proteins such as whey are quickly digested (about 120 minutes or less).  This makes whey a better protein to ingest just prior, during and after a workout. 

Thus, whey is more of a anabolic protein

*Anti-Catabolic Protein*

Caseinate is a "time released" protein.  Digestion time is around 300 minutes.  This allows it to supply your muscles with amino acids for long periods, preventing muslce breakdown (catabolism). 

Kenny Croxdale


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## Call of Ktulu (Sep 25, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> Last time I read, 30 minutes.


 What about when you do cardio after you workout? That's beyond 30 minutes, is the purpose defeated then?


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## WeightLossJames (Sep 26, 2011)

Protein is considered as the main building blocks of our muscles, bones, skin and other tissues. As interest by health and fitness enthusiasts, protein shakes are famous and seek by the many. This is safe for people who are healthy and fit and are used mainly by athletes for their nourishment to ensure enough protein, when used as part of a balanced, nutrient-rich diet.


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## zoco (Sep 26, 2011)

You can't say it's necessary but it sure helps a lot.Apart from that if you can eat sufficient protein you'll get the same results.


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## pebble (Sep 26, 2011)

Call of Ktulu said:


> What about when you do cardio after you workout? That's beyond 30 minutes, is the purpose defeated then?




Dude read this,  http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/supplements/143179-protein-shake-neccessary.html#post2479910.

Best time is pre workout.  2nd best time is 1 hour post workout.  Take your drink before/ during the workout to control cortisol and increase protein synthesis.


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## juggernaut (Sep 26, 2011)

I dont like sucrose. Reeks too much havoc on the stomach. You might want to update your information, Pebble. That bottom study is outdated. You'll get a better result using a mix of both complex and simple carbs + whey and casein.


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## pebble (Sep 26, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> I dont like sucrose. Reeks too much havoc on the stomach. You might want to update your information, Pebble. That bottom study is outdated. You'll get a better result using a mix of both complex and simple carbs + whey and casein.



The bottom study is really a compilation of a bunch of studies.  

Most people say to stay away form fructose because it is commonly not fully absporbed. It moves to the large intestine and ferments.  That is why you have stomach issues with sucrose (glucose + fructose).  But this normally doesnt happen when taken with a ratio of 1:1.  

From what I have read I the only complex carbs one would be using are the ones - maltose (2x glucose) - that act like simple carbs.  Do you have anything laying around that says otherwise?

They whey and casein thing is very debatbale.  The point of a protein shake is for instant gratification, not hours down the road.  Food should be in the place of a casein supplement (read I ate food before the workout and will after therefore I have slowly digesting protein at all times).


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## .V. (Sep 26, 2011)

pebble said:


> Each 250ml glass of choc milk has about 9gs of protein and 28 grams of carbs.



Not your point I know... but did anyone notice that this is nearly the perfect 4:1 carbrotein ratio for optimal absorption?  Closer to 3:1 but still it works.  Milk will make a 100lb calf into a 1000lb cow in about a year.  Granted, this isn't good if cutting but it's food for thought.

Interesting how nature provides perfection if we just use it like it comes without processing it.

My view about protein shakes...they aren't needed.  Eat your whole food meals, drink your whole milk, and you will build muscle.

If your protein needs are for more than you can get with whole food...then protein shakes can be a useful food supplement, but they aren't required.


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## juggernaut (Sep 26, 2011)

pebble said:


> The bottom study is really a compilation of a bunch of studies.
> 
> Most people say to stay away form fructose because it is commonly not fully absporbed. It moves to the large intestine and ferments.  That is why you have stomach issues with sucrose (glucose + fructose).  But this normally doesnt happen when taken with a ratio of 1:1.
> 
> ...



Curious pebble; why would you pick a complex carb source that has myriad of gastrointestinal issues such as malto? Why not a carb source such as oatmeal or barley or brown rice for that matter? I cant even take malto as a serious contender for complex carbs. It's garbage.


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## pebble (Sep 26, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> Curious pebble; why would you pick a complex carb source that has myriad of gastrointestinal issues such as malto? Why not a carb source such as oatmeal or barley or brown rice for that matter? I cant even take malto as a serious contender for complex carbs. It's garbage.



Umm ... maltos is found in oatmeal, barely, and brown rice.  It's  a component of plant starch.

But the reason is that glucose is fully absorbed by the body, easily.


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## juggernaut (Sep 26, 2011)

pebble said:


> Umm ... maltos is found in oatmeal, barely, and brown rice.  It's  a component of plant starch.
> 
> But the reason is that glucose is fully absorbed by the body, easily.



LOL I thought you were referring to maltodextrin.


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## usafchris (Sep 26, 2011)

zoco said:


> You can't say it's necessary but it sure helps a lot.Apart from that if you can eat sufficient protein you'll get the same results.



My .02 I have been out of protien for about three good weeks.  (Deploying and didn't wanto to buy more that I would have to lug along).  
My compensation for this has been to really up my food intake to make up for the shake absence but all in all I can't say as that I have lost much if any... Still holding a good lean 170lbs.  Three weeks is not really long to see what the long road will bring but I think that I am going to refrain for a little longer, keep watching what I load on the plate and see what happens.


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## Built (Sep 26, 2011)

NeilPearson said:


> As long as you are getting your protein it doesn't really matter what the source is



I'm with NeilPearson - if you consume enough protein, the timing barely matters. There's evidence that pulsing protein consumption may enhance protein synthesis. 

A post workout whey shake will indeed blunt cortisol - with or without carbs. Whey protein itself stimulates an insulin response, and it's insulin, not glucose, which counters cortisol.


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## pebble (Sep 26, 2011)

Built said:


> A post workout whey shake will indeed blunt cortisol - with or without carbs. Whey protein itself stimulates an insulin response, and it's insulin, not glucose, which counters cortisol.


 

Your right, but our primary means of altering insulin levels is through glucose (plasma) levels.


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## juggernaut (Sep 26, 2011)




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## Built (Sep 26, 2011)

pebble said:


> Your right, but our primary means of altering insulin levels is through glucose (plasma) levels.



Primary or not, it's not the only way. Besides, exercise stimulates hepatic glucose which in turn induces insulin. Hell, the very act of eating does this - the first-phase rise in insulin is accompanied by hepatic glucose, which is released to protect against hypoglycemia. 

Some current and former fatties (my own hand goes up; so does juggernaut's) have the impaired first-phase insulin response that comes along for the ride with the metabolic syndrome. I was on type Ii diabetes meds when I was fat because of this. I no longer need metformin because I got my diet under control, and I actually use a pre-meal whey shake to stimulate the insulin response I no longer elicit from glucose. 

Whey protein is remarkable at releasing insulin. It's been a real blessing to me.

In short, post workout carbohydrate is not necessary. Some folks handle it, some don't. 

If your body partitions well, by all means toss some glucose (dextrose) or glucose polymers (starch, waxy maize, maltodextrin) into your post workout shake. 

If you tend toward insulin resistance, rest assured you'll get a plenty-strong insulin response from whey alone. 

My .02 CDN


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## |Z| (Sep 26, 2011)

You don't HAVE to have protein shakes but its a great way to supplement protein (esp fast digesting proteins) at times you need it most or to up your protein intake in general. For me, I also use some of the tastier protein supplements (at least in my opinion) to have something delicious and stop me from grabbing an unhealthy snack. If you can fit your macros around it and it is manageable in your budget, I'd recommend it. 

If you really can't then be sure to get a high protein meal or some chocolate milk as mentioned earlier in the thread, or whatever suits you best. For me, Combat Cookies & Cream or even Myofusion will remain part of my diet for a long time


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## pebble (Sep 26, 2011)

Built said:


> Primary or not, it's not the only way. Besides, exercise stimulates hepatic glucose which in turn induces insulin. Hell, the very act of eating does this - the first-phase rise in insulin is accompanied by hepatic glucose, which is released to protect against hypoglycemia.
> 
> Some current and former fatties (my own hand goes up; so does juggernaut's) have the impaired first-phase insulin response that comes along for the ride with the metabolic syndrome. I was on type Ii diabetes meds when I was fat because of this. I no longer need metformin because I got my diet under control, and I actually use a pre-meal whey shake to stimulate the insulin response I no longer elicit from glucose.
> 
> ...



Firstly metformin works in two ways.  It controls glucose release from the liver, primarily.  It is an inhibitor at the liver.  But it also increases sensitivity at the receptors.  So yes with diet and exercise you can manipulate your glucose plasma levels and no longer require metformin. It's great that you have accomplished this.   

Any type of eating stimulates insulin, because it is a storage hormone, but that does not mean al nutrients are created equally (in reference to stimulating insulin release).  Whey, does not stimulate insulin release to the same magnitude as CHO.  CHO is close to double that of a general whey.  (check the refernces I will list below).

And FYI insulin resistance is type 2 diabetes which means that the receptors on the cell that start the glut transporter cascade require large amounts of insulin to be activated.  They will not get enough of a response form whey, and likely not from CHO.  There problem is they don't respond to insulin, not that they don't release enough insulin - thats type 1.

Here is the study you can find AUC of insulin for *Whey*: Comparison of Different Sources and Degrees of Hydrolysis of Dietary Protein: Effect on Plasma Amino Acids, Dipeptides, and Insulin Responses in Human Subjects

Here is the study you can find AUC of insulin for *Glucose*: Metabolic effects of amino acid mixtures and whey protein in healthy subjects: studies using glucose-equivalent drinks


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## Built (Sep 26, 2011)

I got off metformin the day I started the Atkins diet - I was still obese at the time. 


Thanks for the links - I don't go to the U of Guelph though, so I can't log in. Regardless, assuming both articles examine the response on healthy normals - your research shows the insulin response to cho is higher than it is to whey in healthy normals. It's not the same in insulin resistance. In the metabolic syndrome, the pancreas  may not respond normally to cho - first phase insulin response is impaired because of this, but whey will stimulate an insulin response even when cho does not. 

With the first phase insulin response reduced or absent, glucose rises too high postprandially, meaning the second phase insulin response must be too high. This article explains the phenomenon very nicely: How Blood Sugar Control Works--And How It Stops Working


*Why Insulin Release Fails
Insulin Resistance*
First and second phase insulin release may fail to do their jobs for several reasons. The most common is a condition called insulin resistance in which some receptors in the liver and the muscle cells stop responding properly to insulin. This means that though there is lots of insulin circulating in the body, the muscles and liver (but not, alas, the fat cells) don't respond until the insulin levels rise much higher

So when a person's cells become insulin resistant, it will take a lot more insulin than usual to push circulating glucose into cells. In this case, while a person might have a perfectly normal first and second phase insulin response, the first phase response might not produce enough insulin to clear the circulating blood glucose resulting from eating a high carbohydrate meal. Then the second phase response might be prolonged because it takes a long time for beta-cells to secrete of the large amounts of insulin needed to counter the insulin resistance. Eventually the body may not be able to produce enough insulin to clear all the dietary carbohydrate from the bloodstream and blood sugars will rise to abnormal levels.

If your beta-cells are normal, and if insulin resistance at the muscles and liver is your only problem, over time you may be able to grow new pancreas islets filled with new beta-cells that can store even more insulin for use in first and second phase insulin response. In this case, though your blood sugar may continue to rise into the impaired range and take longer than normal to go back down to normal levels, your blood sugar response may never deteriorate past the impaired glucose tolerance stage to full-fledged diabetes. This is what happens to most people who have what is called "Metabolic Syndrome." Unfortunately, if you have impaired glucose tolerance, there is no way of knowing if you fall into this group or if your rising blood sugars are caused by failing or dying beta-cells.

*Failing beta-cells*
*First phase insulin release also fails because beta-cells are dysfunctional or dying*. This can happen along with insulin resistance, or without it. Studies have found that some thin, non-insulin resistant relatives of people with Type 2 Diabetes already show signs of beta cell dysfunction.

If beta-cells are dying or not working properly the remaining beta-cells may be working full-time just to keep up with the need for a basal insulin release so they can't store any excess in those granules for later release.

Some people with type 2 diabetes appear to have a defect which makes their beta-cells die when they attempt to reproduce in response to a need for more insulin. For these people, insulin resistance can cause the beta-cells to try to divide and then die, hastening on the degenerative process.

It is also possible that some people who develop type 2 diabetes have a genetic defect which prevents their beta-cells from storing insulin though their beta-cells are still capable of secreting it.

Scientists have discovered dozens of different genetic defects which cause beta-cells to fail or die in humans and animals. Many genes are expressed in the process that leads to the correct functioning of the beta-cells and many others in the cell receptors which respond to insulin. This means that one person's Type 2 Diabetes can behave quite differently from that of another person, depending on what exactly is broken in their blood sugar control system. This is why drugs that work well for one person may do little for another person. By understanding your own pattern of blood sugar response you may get some insight into what might be malfunctioning in your individual case.
*
Rising Blood Sugar Concentrations Further Damage Your Ability to Produce Insulin*
*Glucose Toxicity*
Whatever the reason for the failing first phase insulin release there's an ugly feedback mechanism that kicks in when blood sugar levels rise because of that failing first phase insulin release: High levels of circulating glucose themselves are toxic to beta-cells, a phenomenon called "glucose toxicity". So as blood sugars rise these high blood sugar concentrations further damage and or kill more beta-cells, making first and second phase insulin release even less able to control blood sugar concentrations.

The result is a rapid drop in blood glucose, with ensuing hunger. Trust me, I've lived this, it was ghastly - I was ravenously hungry while GAINING weight, and struggled with my weight for almost twenty years. 

This phenomenon precludes full-blown type II diabetes - and I assure you, I am well aware of the difference between type I and type II diabetes. 

This article changed my life: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2732158/pdf/zdc1600.pdf


CONCLUSIONS
*We demonstrated that whey protein, when given before or with a high-carbohydrate meal, resulted in a substantial reduction in postprandial glycemia in diet-controlled type 2 diabetic patients. Given that the magnitude of the reduction was comparable with what would be hoped for using pharmacological therapy, such as sulfonylureas, these data have considerable implications for nutritional strategies in the management of diabetes.*
The pivotal role of the gastrointestinal tract in determining postprandial glycemia has often been overlooked, but it is assuming increasing prominence, partly because of the development of gut peptide–based therapies for diabetes, such as the GLP-1 analog exenatide (8) and the amylin analog pramlintide (9), which may act predominantly by slowing gastric emptying. Similar to what we reported after an oil preload (4), whey slowed gastric emptying substantially, in particular when given before the meal, and is associated with the stimulation of GLP-1 and CCK. However, in contrast to the delayed insulin response observed after oil, *whey augmented insulin secretion markedly, possibly by a combination of the incretin effect and the direct stimulation of the β-cells by absorbed amino acids (10).* It is likely that the stimulation of insulin by whey was responsible for the much greater reduction in glycemia after whey than after oil, given that the effects on gastric emptying were comparable.
Although our study involved a small number of subjects who had well-controlled, predominantly uncomplicated type 2 diabetes, the improvement in postprandial glycemia was marked and highly consistent. Further evaluation is now required in poorly controlled patients and those taking oral hypoglycemic agents in order to determine whether the acute effects are sustained in the longer term. It would also be important to confirm whether the effects are evident with a smaller load of protein in order to minimize additional energy intake. Although concerns have been raised about hyperinsulinemia as a risk factor for vascular disease (11), it is more likely that it represents a marker for other risk factors (12), and in the UK Prospective Diabetes Study (UKPDS), stimulation of insulin by sulfonylureas was not associated with increased cardiovascular events (13).
The concept of using dietary manipulations to treat type 2 diabetes, based on our knowledge of the contribution of gastric emptying and gut peptides to postprandial glycemic responses, appears to hold much promise.

*
Summarizing: some of us don't get a normal insulin response to glucose, but we do for whey protein. Having a pre-meal protein shake normalizes our insulin response, and thus allows us to feel fed and have a normal post-meal insulin response without medication. An added perq is that we feel more "fed", and thus have an easier time modulating appetite. *

Pretty cool, eh?


----------



## sassy69 (Sep 26, 2011)

^^ Very cool!


----------



## juggernaut (Sep 27, 2011)

God, Built. I just wanna jump your bones when you get all smart and sexy like that...are the librarian glasses perked at the nose while sucking on the pencil???? 

JK!!


----------



## Built (Sep 27, 2011)

Almost. I don't suck on pencils.


----------



## pebble (Sep 27, 2011)

Built said:


> I got off metformin the day I started the Atkins diet - I was still obese at the time.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the links - I don't go to the U of Guelph though, so I can't log in. Regardless, assuming both articles examine the response on healthy normals - your research shows the insulin response to cho is higher than it is to whey in healthy normals. It's not the same in insulin resistance. In the metabolic syndrome, the pancreas  may not respond normally to cho - first phase insulin response is impaired because of this, but whey will stimulate an insulin response even when cho does not.
> ...



That is all great information, but it is for a very specific population.  I understand that you and some others may fall into this category, but extending the information to healthy populations is very misleading.   

For the average healthy person going to the gym, they should use CHO pre workout to control insulin (and as a result coritsol).  It is better suited for the task than other nutrients.


----------



## Built (Sep 27, 2011)

pebble said:


> That is all great information, but it is for a very specific population.  I understand that you and some others may fall into this category, but extending the information to healthy populations is very misleading.
> 
> For the *average healthy person going to the gym*, they should use CHO pre workout to control insulin (and as a result coritsol).  It is better suited for the task than other nutrients.




I don't think it is. A great many of us are drawn to physical culture precisely because we are - or - were fat. The standard advice given to lifters has been to consume carb pre and/or postworkout, and although tolerated by some, I'd be willing to hazard a bet that there are more people who DON'T fall into the category of person you speak of. 

Look around you the next time you go to a commercial gym. Tell me how many lean healthy people you see. Now tell me how many fatties you see. 

When you've had enough there, go to Martin Berkhan's Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health website and read up on fasted training. He doesn't even advocate the necessity of a pre or postout meal, let alone carbohydrate. 

We live in a very exciting time with regard to paradigm shifting - we're starting to see a great many sacred cows take a tumble. For me, the notions of "six daily meals" and "never train fasted" were the most recent to go. 

I'm very glad to finally see good research answering questions relevant to aging former fatties like me.


----------



## Built (Sep 27, 2011)

As an aside, just how much of an insulin response does one need to counter the cortisol response? Surely that provided by a whey shake should be sufficient even for healthy normals.


----------



## pebble (Sep 27, 2011)

Built said:


> I don't think it is. A great many of us are drawn to physical culture precisely because we are - or - were fat. The standard advice given to lifters has been to consume carb pre and/or postworkout, and although tolerated by some, I'd be willing to hazard a bet that there are more people who DON'T fall into the category of person you speak of.
> 
> Look around you the next time you go to a commercial gym. Tell me how many lean healthy people you see. Now tell me how many fatties you see.
> 
> ...




Berkhan is full of shit.  He has changed his fasted state exercise stance many times to start to incorporation nutrients around workouts.   This is because it was a great way to get noticed, but he needed to start backing up his claims. The only way he could do that was by including nutrients around the workouts.  

I have wrote papers on intermittent fasting and there is nothing special about it. Fasting + workout is a bad idea.  It leads to exaggerated muscle dedgration.  Fasting in general can lead to many issues, and add no benefit to traditional calorie restriction.

I have had deep conversations with brad pilion the author of eat stop eat, and even he admits intermittent fasting is more about behaviour control than physiological adaptations.  He was the muscle tech guy for so long that he learned how to conjure up the science to make anything seem great. It's what he did for eat stop eat and what Martin is doing for Leangains.com  It is all about selling to both of them.  

But do agree that 6 meals a day is over blown.  It isn't to around 21 meals in a day do we start  to get significant changes in kcal expenditure due to thermogenesis.  

There is lots of information that suits both sides of this particular debate, but I have not seen any logical information that suggest intermittent fasting is any better than calorie restriction.  


As for fat people at a gym, that does not mean that they have signs of dysfunctional beta cells.  It would be a very big leap to make that assumption.  I doubt many medical professionals would make that there first hypothesis.  But it can easily be said that they are likely to have insulin resistant receptors.  

Not trying to sound rude here, but you are taking a lot of your personal information and treating it as if it is right for everyone without knowing their medical background.  Its safer to provide general information to a healthy population than to start assuming everyone has what you do.

If you would like to continue this we can take it to PM's because I feel that it has kind of spiraled out of control in here.


----------



## pebble (Sep 27, 2011)

Built said:


> As an aside, just how much of an insulin response does one need to counter the cortisol response? Surely that provided by a whey shake should be sufficient even for healthy normals.




Thats is a great question and I wish I knew.  But I will look at some data (AUC) of cortisol and insullin (from why and cho) and see if I could find something.

best I could say now is that 35mg of CHO does not fully blunt coritsol, but I am not sure anything could.


----------



## Built (Sep 27, 2011)

pebble said:


> Berkhan is full of shit.  He has changed his fasted state exercise stance many times to start to incorporation nutrients around workouts.   This is because it was a great way to get noticed, but he needed to start backing up his claims. The only way he could do that was by including nutrients around the workouts.


I've been training fasted several times a week for over a year now. I do it when it's inconvenient to eat beforehand. So far, I've not wasted away. But you're right, n=1 here. Maybe others have different experiences.



pebble said:


> I have wrote papers on intermittent fasting and there is nothing special about it. Fasting + workout is a bad idea.  It leads to exaggerated muscle dedgration.  Fasting in general can lead to many issues, and add no benefit to traditional calorie restriction.


Ketosis is neuroprotective. There's one benefit over calorie restriction. Cancer cells generally aren't happy with ketosis. There's another. But I think you meant in comparison to the fat lost through traditional calorie restriction, in which case I'd have to agree. With regard to comfort, I'd have to call you on this point, however. I'd much rather fast part of the day if it meant I got to feel FULL the rest of the day. There seem to be quite a few of us. But it doesn't matter - if you eat less than you need on average, you'll lose. 



pebble said:


> I have had deep conversations with brad pilion the author of eat stop eat, and even he admits intermittent fasting is more about behaviour control than physiological adaptations.


Hmmm. Not quite. There's a threshold for meal size. Too small, and you don't get the appropriate incretin response to turn on the cascade of hormones (among them insulin) which signal satiety. 

A few larger meals tend to promote satiety better than multiple small meals because of this. Concentrate them into a smaller window and you'll see enhanced dietary compliance because people are more comfortable. 


pebble said:


> He was the muscle tech guy for so long that he learned how to conjure up the science to make anything seem great. It's what he did for eat stop eat and what Martin is doing for Leangains.com  It is all about selling to both of them.
> 
> But do agree that 6 meals a day is over blown.  It isn't to around 21 meals in a day do we start  to get significant changes in kcal expenditure due to thermogenesis.


Ah - you and I are arguing different points. I don't give a crap which way burns more fat or enhances thermogenesis to a greater degree. I only care about comfort. 



pebble said:


> There is lots of information that suits both sides of this particular debate, but I have not seen any logical information that suggest intermittent fasting is any better than calorie restriction.


There. I've offered mine. 



pebble said:


> As for fat people at a gym, that does not mean that they have signs of dysfunctional beta cells.  It would be a very big leap to make that assumption.  I doubt many medical professionals would make that there first hypothesis.  But it can easily be said that they are likely to have insulin resistant receptors.
> 
> Not trying to sound rude here, but you are taking a lot of your personal information and treating it as if it is right for everyone without knowing their medical background.  Its safer to provide general information to a healthy population than to start assuming everyone has what you do.



Which is why I said go ahead and have the carbs if you tolerate them - I just don't think it's necessary. And based on my ten years on the forums, leading a forum started by me and a number of my former-fatty, low-carb dieting friends, and on my interactions with thousand of people online, I can assure you there are a number of us who do NOT handle carbs the way "normals" do. 

Let me turn this back around on you: if whey stimulates an insulin response in diabetics, what did I say that wouldn't be safe for healthy normals? 


pebble said:


> If you would like to continue this we can take it to PM's because I feel that it has kind of spiraled out of control in here.


Nah - this is interesting. I'm not suffering any grief here; you and I have been polite to each other. Let's keep this going here. Berkhan is no guru to me; nobody is. But I've liked what's happened to my life since I've incorporated intermittent fasting and I thank Berhkan for helping dispel myths such as meal frequency.


----------



## malinamartis (Sep 28, 2011)

A protein shake is would probably be better than a casein protein shake..


----------



## jtterrible (Sep 28, 2011)

"Is it necessary for me to drink my own urine? No! But I do it anyway, cause it's sterile and I like the taste"


----------



## Call of Ktulu (Oct 13, 2011)

pebble said:


> Dude read this, http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/supplements/143179-protein-shake-neccessary.html#post2479910.
> 
> Best time is pre workout. 2nd best time is 1 hour post workout. Take your drink before/ during the workout to control cortisol and increase protein synthesis.


 Taking a protein shake before intense cardio can make me want to . Also, sometimes when I take a shake after cardio it makes me tired. I am not sure why.


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## bjg (Oct 14, 2011)

protein shakes are not necessary a good protein meal would do the same. now the protein shakes have some advantages (a good brand must be used) is that 
1- they are absorbed quicker than milk protein lets say
2- they can have a low amount of carb
3- they are convenient, you may not have the time to always prepare a good protein meal.
disadvantages:
1- relying on them is not really good for your digestive system in the long run
2- they are not going to give you the muscles
3- expensive 
so if you have time to have good protein rich meals all the time,  you can get some protein powder and use them only when needed this way you save your money and you give your stomach a break.


----------



## Built (Oct 14, 2011)

Call of Ktulu said:


> Also, sometimes when I take a shake after cardio it makes me tired. I am not sure why.


After cardio your glycogen stores are a bit depleted. Whey stimulates an insulin response. Normally, hepatic glucose will rise to protect against hypoglycemia but post workout this may not easily be the case. Your blood sugar drops from the insulin released following consumption of the whey, and you thus feel tired. You may also feel hungry. 





bjg said:


> protein shakes are not necessary a good protein meal would do the same.


for the most part, you're right. Protein shakes are still just protein; it's still food. 


bjg said:


> now the protein shakes have some advantages (a good brand must be used) is that
> 1- they are absorbed quicker than milk protein lets say


Not by very much. 


bjg said:


> 2- they can have a low amount of carb


Yep


bjg said:


> 3- they are convenient, you may not have the time to always prepare a good protein meal.


 also true


bjg said:


> disadvantages:
> 1- relying on them is not really good for your digestive system in the long run


Why not? Whey is loaded with glutamine and glutamine is very helpful for gut health. 


bjg said:


> 2- they are not going to give you the muscles


Again, food is food. If you eat more food than you need (whey is food) you'll gain weight. If you do this and lift weights regularly, much of this gained weight will be muscle. 

Maybe you mean something else?


bjg said:


> 3- expensive


Whey's a pretty cheap source of protein. I pay $40 for 2000g of whey protein, which works out to 2 cents a gram. A fifty gram serving of whey costs me a buck. I'd need to consume 7 ounces of chicken breast or lean steak to get this much protein. Last time I checked, both chicken breast and sirloin cost a bit more than 2 bucks a pound. 


bjg said:


> so if you have time to have good protein rich meals all the time,  you can get some protein powder and use them only when needed this way you save your money and you give your stomach a break.


My .02


----------



## bjg (Oct 15, 2011)

Why not? Whey is loaded with glutamine and glutamine is very helpful for gut health. 

maybe but they also contain loads of artificial stuff , and your digestive system might not tolerate them in the long run , i have known many people having problems but not serious, one though had ulcers but maybe not from protein shakes but protein shakes did not make him feel good.

One point i forgot to mention:
protein must be taken in small amounts at a time like 20 grams so you can benefit from it ...many take 100g in one shake and most o fit is not absorbed or will tend to make you gain fat , better to divide it into many small amounts.


----------



## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 15, 2011)

*Propensity For Misinformation*



bjg said:


> One point i forgot to mention:
> protein must be taken in small amounts at a time like 20 grams so you can benefit from it ...many take 100g in one shake and most o fit is not absorbed or will tend to make you gain fat , better to divide it into many small amounts.



*Master of Misinformation*

Llike your other post, you have a propensity of providing misinformation. 

There is no research to substantiate that the body is unable to absorb 20 grams or more of protein in one feeding.  

That myth that has been around forever. 

*Pulse Feeding*

As Built mention in an earlier post, Pluse Feeding in which large amounts of protein are consumed with infrequent meals appears to promote better absorption.  

*Consuming Large Amounts of Protein Makes You Fat*

Where do you come up with this stuff?

*Fact and Fiction*

Your post are a combination of fact and fiction.

Kenny Croxdale


----------



## BP2000 (Oct 15, 2011)

Call of Ktulu said:


> Do you need a protein shake after you workout? Is food just as good or milk just as good for a protein source after a workout? I'm asking because protein shakes are expensive after a while.




Milk has way to much sugar in it.  Not to mention your drinking shit from a pregnant cow.  No thanks. 


Most of us use powder cause eating 2 lbs. of chicken get's old after a few day's.   With the advent of liquid egg whites and protein powder you can drink 50g of protein in a lil under 20 seconds.


----------



## BP2000 (Oct 15, 2011)

bjg said:


> Why not? Whey is loaded with glutamine and glutamine is very helpful for gut health.
> 
> maybe but they also contain loads of artificial stuff , and your digestive system might not tolerate them in the long run , i have known many people having problems but not serious, one though had ulcers but maybe not from protein shakes but protein shakes did not make him feel good.
> 
> ...






muuuuuuuuuuuuuust beccccccccccccccccccccccome  moooooooooooreeeeeeeeeeeeeee   eddddddddddddddducaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaateddddddddddddddddd  beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeefoooooooooooooooooooooore   spooooooooooooooooooooooooouttttttttttttttttttting

off senseless shit


----------



## gamma (Oct 15, 2011)

BP2000 said:


> Milk has way to much sugar in it.  Not to mention your drinking shit from a pregnant cow.  No thanks.
> 
> 
> Most of us use powder cause eating 2 lbs. of chicken get's old after a few day's.   With the advent of liquid egg whites and protein powder you can drink 50g of protein in a lil under 20 seconds.



x2


----------



## bjg (Oct 15, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> *Master of Misinformation*
> 
> Llike your other post, you have a propensity of providing misinformation.
> 
> ...



you base your opinion on some studies i base mine on many other studies on expert medical opinions and  on  35 years of bodybuilding.
i can show you studies that say something and other studies that say the opposite.
normally one an assimilate 20-50 g of protein at one time depending on how much muscle cell break down or tear had happened during a workout.
 an  as far as supplements are concerned there are no long term studies (years) because it is not possible to do that is why one should not over abuse supplements. As far as protein making you fat: Anything you eat in excess makes you fat ( conservation of energy principle) and protein shakes are not all pure protein.


----------



## Built (Oct 15, 2011)

bjg said:


> you base your opinion on some studies i base mine on many other studies on expert medical opinions and  on  35 years of bodybuilding.
> i can show you studies that say something and other studies that say the opposite.
> normally one an assimilate 20-50 g of protein at one time depending on how much muscle cell break down or tear had happened during a workout.
> an  as far as supplements are concerned there are no long term studies (years) because it is not possible to do that is why one should not over abuse supplements. As far as protein making you fat: Anything you eat in excess makes you fat ( conservation of energy principle) and protein shakes are not all pure protein.



You didn't say that. 
You said nothing about excess consumption. You said protein must be taken in small amounts at a time, and that if you ate it all at once, it would tend to make you gain fat:


> One point i forgot to mention:
> *protein must be taken in small amounts at a time like 20 grams so you can benefit from it *...many take 100g in one shake and most o fit is not absorbed *or will tend to make you gain fat* , better to divide it into many small amounts.


Humour me. Kindly post recent, peer-reviewed research - or at the very least, describe the pathways and proposed mechanism - in support of your claims that:
a) protein consumption should be limited to 20g at a time
b) Eating your daily protein in large servings (as opposed to frequent, smaller servings) leading to fat-gain. I'll further clarify this is in the context of equal calories and protein.


----------



## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 15, 2011)

bjg said:


> i can show you studies



*Studies*

Great.  So, you will have no problem presenting that information.  

I look forward to you posting it.[/U][/B]  

*"one should not over abuse supplements." *

Exactly, who has posted anything advocating abusing supplements???



bjg said:


> As far as protein making you fat: Anything you eat in excess makes you fat ( conservation of energy principle)



*Too Much Protein Will Make You Fat*

That was what you said.  

So, the take home message for you is...

*Be Explicit*

The information you present is vague.  You need to be more explicit.  

*Fact Combined With Fiction*

You also present information based on your on dimensional view.  

*Present Data*

"Because I said so"...is your battle cry.  Back it up.


bjg said:


> and protein shakes are not all pure protein.



*Not All Protein*

No one said a protein shake is 100% protein.  

However, out of 100 grams of protein (as you eluded to), the majority of it is protein.  

Kenny Croxdale


----------



## bjg (Oct 15, 2011)

take it easy...are you a lawyer? coz you argue about the smallest word and detail i said. the point is that each gives his opinion not to argue. protein absorption and how much you need and are supplements necessary is not an exact science 
i am sure you can look up some articles (you are good at it) that will support what i am saying.
my approach is that it is better to take a small amount of protein that is in shake form and use it for muscle building than take a lot and not use it. others would think the opposite take lot the excess is better than the shortage. 
well the whole thing is not that simple your muscles are not a bucket that you need to fill out as quickly as possible.
And to add on  my view on supplements: my view is probably not similar to most of the people in this forum, protein shakes and vitamins are the furthest i would go. As far as other supplements and Androwhatever and prohormones and even creatine no matter how many research articles you show me , i would not think of taking them, and even if i did i would not prescribe them to my son so why should i prescribe them to other young bodybuilders. I am doing fine without them and i see many are doing fine without... my body is not a research lab to try whatever crap is advertised. There are no long term studies on any of this mess because long term human studies ( i am talking years) are not possible. Professional athletes do not care about long term effects so most studies are done on a short term basis.
I rely on the quality of my workout and on a healthy diet. Only time and experience will make you understand what your body needs and what exercises are good for you. Rushing things will never help.


----------



## Built (Oct 15, 2011)

bjg, I don't blame you for not wanting your son to take prohormones. 

Protein powder, however, isn't a supplement. It's just food, and not all of us use it with muscle-gain in mind. I for one use a premeal whey shake because it helps me feel full longer - and hence keep my food intake under control (whey promotes an insulin response, even for those of us who may not get a normal insulin response to glucose). My sister has Celiac disease, and she uses it for the easy-to-digest protein and for gut health. The added perq is of course the fact that whey provides a cheap, easy source of readily-used amino acids - hardly unwelcome in a bodybuilding paradigm. 

You may wish to revisit creatine. If your son eats steak, he's already had creatine. This naturally-occurring nutrient has demonstrated benefit not only for the purpose of muscle-gain, but also for heart health, glucose uptake and cognitive function in the elderly (I have my 81 year old mother taking it). It has also been researched to death for decades and subsequently found to not only be safe, but in many cases, beneficial. 

Peace.


----------



## bjg (Oct 15, 2011)

Built said:


> bjg, I don't blame you for not wanting your son to take prohormones.
> 
> Protein powder, however, isn't a supplement. It's just food, and not all of us use it with muscle-gain in mind. I for one use a premeal whey shake because it helps me feel full longer - and hence keep my food intake under control (whey promotes an insulin response, even for those of us who may not get a normal insulin response to glucose). My sister has Celiac disease, and she uses it for the easy-to-digest protein and for gut health. The added perq is of course the fact that whey provides a cheap, easy source of readily-used amino acids - hardly unwelcome in a bodybuilding paradigm.
> 
> ...



true..protein shakes are sometimes beneficial i use them because a good source of protein is not always available at the moment besides it prevents me from eating good stuff like chocolate or ice cream .My son does occasionally take protein drinks, i just don't passionately encourage him because when a young bodybuilder starts with protein and becomes deeply attached to it it may lead to other stuff. just look at this forum and you will find so many young kids encouraging each other on taking substances that could lead to serious health problems and most of them started with innocent protein shakes..you see my point? 
Creatine taken moderately by a healthy person will not hurt probably.people swear by it. but for me it gives me water retention and subsequently could cause high blood pressure... i feel the results and benefits do not outweigh the side effects at least for me.
peace


----------



## pebble (Oct 15, 2011)

Built said:


> You didn't say that.
> You said nothing about excess consumption. You said protein must be taken in small amounts at a time, and that if you ate it all at once, it would tend to make you gain fat:
> *
> Humour me. Kindly post recent, peer-reviewed research - or at the very least, describe the pathways and proposed mechanism - in support of your claims that:
> ...



Built he has this one on lock down.  The research pretty much says 20g whey vs 30 vs 40 ect all equal the same level of protein synthesis.  This suggests there is no point for taking more than 20g of whey at one time if the only reason for it is to increase protein synthesis. But we know that we can simply use the extra protein for energy so its not a big deal, but it may be more costly than using CHO.  

The same study also showed that 8-10 grams of EEA and 12-15g of BCAA provided the same response as 20g of whey. You can check out the study name I am referencing in my previous post over here, http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/diet-nutrition/136372-protein-intake-guide.html#post2364864.


----------



## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 15, 2011)

bjg said:


> take it easy...are you a lawyer? coz you argue about the smallest word and detail i said.



*Take It Easy*

As I stated in a previous reply to one of your post, I have a short disposition with individuals posing as experts, yet lack enough knowledge to know what they are talking about.  

*Small Details*

In an intelligent discussion, one need to present some type of support data on their position when ask.  

*You Equivocate*

Your ramble in your post.  They are ambigious, unclear, and misleading.

You don't do it intentionally.  You're a scatter brain. 

*"Because I said so"...*

that is your battle cry. 


bjg said:


> the point is that each gives his opinion not to argue. protein absorption and how much you need and are supplements necessary is not an exact science
> i am sure you can look up some articles (you are good at it) that will support what i am saying.



*"i can show you studies"* 

You SPECIFICALLY stated that you could provide research that supports your position.

Now, you saying that you have nothing to support your position. 

*Built's Request*

"Kindly post recent, peer-reviewed research - or at the very least, describe the pathways and proposed mechanism - in support of your claims..."

*"i am sure you can look up some articles..."*

So, we're back to you making things up as you go.  You DON"T have any research.  



bjg said:


> my approach is that it is better to take a small amount of protein that is in shake form and use it for muscle building than take a lot and not use it. others would think the opposite take lot the excess is better than the shortage.



*Your Approach*

Let me reiterate, you approach is based on your one dimensional view.  



bjg said:


> And to add on  my view on supplements: my view is probably not similar to most of the people in this forum, protein shakes and vitamins are the furthest i would go. As far as other supplements and Androwhatever and prohormones and even creatine no matter how many research articles you show me , i would not think of taking them, and even if i did i would not prescribe them to my son so why should i prescribe them to other young bodybuilders.




*Attention Deficit Disorder*

You definitely keep wondering off topic. 

*Not Taking Creatine*

Creatine is a proven winner, empirical data tells us that.  That meaning if you talk (no reading required on your part) to most athletes, they will tell you it works.   

Creatine is one of the most scientifically researched supplements on the market.  It has been shown to have many health benefits. 

*Reading*

However, reading is not one of your stong suites.  So, you are clueless. 

*"i would not think of taking them"*

So, you have NO practical experience and nor do you read or believe in research.  

*Prescribing Them*

Thanks for clarifying your ignorance and re-inforcing reasons why no one should listen to your views. 



bjg said:


> There are no long term studies on any of this mess because long term human studies ( i am talking years) are not possible.



*Long Term Studies*

Actually, on some of the supplements there are decades of research information on.  (When all else fails, READ!)

Creatine is a prime examle of that.

*Books and Articles*

Try reading books and articles that have more word than pictures.  It amazing what you will learn. 

Kenny Croxdale


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## pebble (Oct 15, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> *"i can show you studies"*
> 
> You SPECIFICALLY stated that you could provide research that supports your position.
> 
> ...



To be fair to his stance I did post material that supports one of his claims.   I doubt he knew of the study, or the others like it, but he did get this one.    Even the blind man playing darts will get a bulls-eye if he throws enough darts.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 15, 2011)

pebble said:


> To be fair to his stance I did post material that supports one of his claims.



Pebble,

I appreciate you posting the information.  

You get points for getting off your ass and researching the subject.  

*Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men*

Part of the problem with this research (any research for the matter) are the test subjects and the number of individuals used in the study.  

_"Six healthy active males (mean ± SE: 22 ± 2 y; 86.1 ± 7.6 kg; 1.82 ± 0.1 m) who had ≥4 mo of previous recreational weight-lifting experience (range: 4 mo???8 y) volunteered to participate in the study."_

*The Law Of Numbers*

One of the rules of reasearch is the larger the study group, the more more accurate the results. 

*"Six health active males..."*

Six is too low to accomodate "The Law Of Numbers" Rule.  

*Individuals In The Study*

Using individuals with 4 mo to 8 years is too broad a range.  The difference between an individual with 4 months of training vs 8 years is huge. 

*Realiability of Study*

While the study provides some information, the study cannot be applied to every group.

*Charles Poliquin (Canadian Strength Coach)*

Poliquin has often cited the problem with the majority of research is not using the right groups.  

In other word, what effects of nutrition and training of novice trainees does not usually carry over to intermediate or advanced trainees. 


pebble said:


> I doubt he knew of the study, or the others like it, but he did get this one.



*That's My Point*

He has no idea because he didn't take the time to do the research like you did.  



pebble said:


> Even the blind man playing darts will get a bulls-eye if he throws enough darts.



Yes.  However, nothing happens unless you get off your ass and make the effort.

Kenny Croxdale


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## pebble (Oct 15, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> Pebble,
> 
> I appreciate you posting the information.
> 
> ...



Just about all training studies use low numbers like this because they are generally done in universities on university students (just like this one). This means low funding.  I know because I have been a part of teams conducting like studies.  

Studies like these get tossed into a review and then pushed into meta-analysis and all of a sudden the data has accumulated into a substantial amount which allows for relationships/correlations/ trends to emerge.  Every topic has to start somewhere, and this paper is only 3 years old, which you should know is not very old for science - it takes time for new studies to be conducted.  

It is not as if this study is in a small no name journal, it is a very reputable journal and has been conducted by two of the top protein guys in the world, Mark and Stuart.   To further validate this study it has been cited multiple times in other peer reviewed reputable journals.  This is not some fly by the night article.



Kenny Croxdale said:


> *Individuals In The Study*
> 
> Using individuals with 4 mo to 8 years is too broad a range.  The difference between an individual with 4 months of training vs 8 years is huge.
> 
> ...



Having a wide range of training expiernce was used because of Marks previous work.  He has shown that with less training experience you need more protein (to accomadate the weaker therefore more damanged sarcolemma).  By using a wide range of training expiernce and not seeing any statisticlly significant differences  (in what volume of whey elicited the greatest protein synthesis response) it reduces the need to conduct studies on specific populations.  If there was significant difference between the population ( ie less experience responded better to 40g and more experienced responded better to 20g) it would have encouraged interest in studying each specific population more in depth and likely warranted additional funding to do so.  Without the difference there is no need to conduct studies on specific populations.  

Generally studies use males first (unless the researcher is particularly interested in females) because they do not have a menstrual cycle (hormonal fluctuation). They are usually only tested after they know the expected results to see if they differ from males. 




Kenny Croxdale said:


> *Charles Poliquin (Canadian Strength Coach)*
> 
> Poliquin has often cited the problem with the majority of research is not using the right groups.
> 
> In other word, what effects of nutrition and training of novice trainees does not usually carry over to intermediate or advanced trainees.



Despite that one of the conclusions that can be made form this study spits in this faces of his thoughts.  20g whey maximally stimulates PS for novice, intermediate and advanced young males.  

I have trained beside Charles and the man is very smart, but also very ignorant and CRAZY.  Have you seen the training principles he has?  Have you been to his seminars?  Did you look at his biosignature software?  Some of that stuff is big joke.

And his information does not relate to the people here.  All of his research is on high level athletes which I doubt many of the members are here.  Are we not looking for population specificity anymore?


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## Built (Oct 15, 2011)

bjg said:


> true..protein shakes are sometimes beneficial i use them because a good source of protein is not always available at the moment besides it prevents me from eating good stuff like chocolate or ice cream .My son does occasionally take protein drinks, i just don't passionately encourage him because when a young bodybuilder starts with protein and becomes deeply attached to it it may lead to other stuff. just look at this forum and you will find so many young kids encouraging each other on taking substances that could lead to serious health problems and most of them started with innocent protein shakes..you see my point?



Completely. 

You may be interested to know that over 99% of heroin addicts drank milk as children. I hope and pray you had the good sense to keep your child from drinking milk when he was little - I would hate to see him become a heroin addict. 

On a more serious note, I'm a supermoderator on this forum and if you see ANYONE encouraging a kid to take steroids, prohormones or anything stronger than food (I include whey in this), creatine and a multivitamin, tell me and I'll shut that poster RIGHT down. 

You'd be hard-pressed to find a member, sponsor or moderator who supports the use of drugs by children. 

I personally have gone behind the scenes by PM many times to explain, in detail, the problems that may arise from using these substances, and why it is critical that young people who haven't yet become adults refrain. I've invested the time to help many of these youngsters with diet and training advice - for free - to help make it easier for them to see that there are other, better, safer ways to achieve their goals . I even wrote an article about it - which you'll see posted in the link in my sig. Feel free to read it if you like, you may find it interesting. 


bjg said:


> Creatine taken moderately by a healthy person will not hurt probably.people swear by it. but for me it gives me water retention and subsequently could cause high blood pressure... i feel the results and benefits do not outweigh the side effects at least for me.
> peace


You actually may want to re-think this one. Premix creatine is basically koolaid with a bit of creatine, and a serving will give the user a LOT of sugar. If it isn't premixed, many people drink creatine down with something like fruit juice - either way, you're getting a huge whack of sugar, and sugar promotes a pro-inflammatory hormone to rise: insulin. The water retention you speak of is more likely a product of bloat from excess carbohydrate consumption rather than from the creatine. Creatine increases muscle cell hydration a little, but this isn't the same as the water retention seen from elevated levels of aldosterone. Blood pressure should not be affected. If you had a pre-existing kidney disease, I'd suggest you contact your doctor before taking anything - but to be fair, if you had a preexisting kidney condition - one bad enough to require dialysis, for instance - a single banana could kill you (potassium). 

On the other hand, oral creatine keeps your arteries a little less stiff after exercise, which may be of tremendous benefit for those dealing with modest hypertension; my elderly mother, for instance. The following recent article in the European Journal of Applied Physiology showed no increase in systolic blood pressure measured in the arm btw.
Creatine supplementation attenuates hemod... [Eur J Appl Physiol. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

Eur J Appl Physiol. 2011 Sep;111(9):1965-71. Epub 2011 Jan 20.

*Creatine supplementation attenuates hemodynamic and arterial stiffness responses following an acute bout of isokinetic exercise.*
Sanchez-Gonzalez MA, Wieder R, Kim JS, Vicil F, Figueroa A.
Source

Department of Nutrition, Food and Exercise Sciences, Florida State University, 120 Convocation Way, Tallahassee, FL 32306-1493, USA.
Abstract

Arterial stiffness and hemodynamics may be increased following a bout of resistance exercise. Oral creatine supplementation (Cr) may attenuate cardiovascular responses after exercise via improved anaerobic metabolism. This study was aimed to determine the effect of Cr on hemodynamic and arterial stiffness responses after acute isokinetic exercise. Sixteen healthy males (22.6 ± 0.6 year) were randomly assigned to either placebo (Pl, n = 8) or Cr (n = 8) (2 ?? 5 g/day) for 3 weeks. *Brachial systolic blood pressure* (SBP), heart rate (HR), brachial-ankle pulse wave velocity (baPWV), and leg PWV were measured in the supine position at rest before and after the interventions. After the supplementation period, parameters were also measured 5 min (PE5) and 15 min (PE15) after two sets of leg isokinetic exercise. *There was no difference between the groups in resting measurements before and after the supplementation*. 





			
				Built said:
			
		

> (The bolded text above are the parts that showed resting blood pressure was unaffected btw)


*Compared with the Pl group, the Cr group had attenuated (P < 0.05) increases in SBP *


			
				Built said:
			
		

> This is an extremely important finding: the ordinary increase in blood pressure seen following a bout of activity was LOWER in those supplemented by creatine. Yep, creatine makes it easier for your body to handle the stresses of intense activity because it keeps your blood pressure from rising as high as it would have under the same circumstances, but without creatine supplementation.


at PE5 (Pl 14.0 ± 2.5, Cr 5.6 ± 2.3 mmHg), HR at both P5 (Pl 28 ± 4 vs. Cr 16 ± 2 beats/min) and PE15 (Pl 21 ± 3, Cr 11 ± 2 beats/min) and rate pressure product at P5 (Pl 45.8 ± 6.4, Cr 24.8 ± 2.2) and P15 (Pl 34.2 ± 5.0, Cr 15.9 ± 6.0). Compared with the Pl group, the Cr group had suppressed increases in baPWV at PE5 (Pl 1.5 ± 0.4, Cr -0.1 ± 0.4 m/s) and PE15 (Pl 1.1 ± 0.2, Cr -0.3 ± 0.3 m/s) and returned SBP to pre-exercise values at PE15 (Pl 10.6 ± 2.8, Cr 2.1 ± 2.6 mmHg). PWV in the exercised leg decreased at PE5 in both groups. These findings suggest that Cr supplementation attenuates the hemodynamic and baPWV responses after acute isokinetic exercise.


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## jimm (Oct 16, 2011)

im not expert but think about this..

You workout what ever muscle and break it down.

You want to replenish this with all the nutrients you can as fast as you can this is why in my opinion a shake is better to have then food..

I say this because a shake is liquid form and will be absorbed into the muscle quicker then food as the food will have to be broke down and digested so it will take longer to get to the muscle...

Theres a vid of zach kahn and he says always a shake after a workout not food due to its absorbed quicker..

As far as shakes vs food and prople using shakes as meal replacement food is by far the better option


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## Built (Oct 16, 2011)

jimm said:


> im not expert but think about this..
> 
> You workout what ever muscle and break it down.
> 
> ...



I know, and I agree - you need a pool of aminos around. Thing is, you'll get this in time unless you're in a deeply fasted state, and even then there are compensatory mechanisms which alternatively stimulate and halt protein synthesis. No matter which way you slice it, if you're operating at an overall surplus and you lift heavy stuff, you're gonna grow.


A friend of mine - Hatred on another b oard - started doing intermittent fasting recently and has _finally_been able to cut deep enough to see abs. He's keeping his size, too. Now this is a big, beefy guy and he's doing this assisted, but I still know plenty of big guys who can't diet down, even on gear. 

He summed it up this way: "Lions don't have refrigerators."



jimm said:


> As far as shakes vs food and prople using shakes as meal replacement food is by far the better option


Agreed 100% - supplements are just that, supplements. I only recently started leaning on whey (and as mentioned, this is with a distinctly different purpose in mind), and always did just fine on eggs,  cottage cheese, steak, veggies, natural peanut butter, broccoli, green beans, romaine, dairy fat, berries and sweet potatoes. 

You'll note the conspicuous absence of grains, alcohol, or anything dyed blue or that came in a microwaveable pouch.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 16, 2011)

pebble said:


> Just about all training studies use low numbers like this because they are generally done in universities on university students (just like this one). This means low funding.  I know because I have been a part of teams conducting like studies.



*Great Point*

I agree. The problem with just about all studies is the limited number of individuals used, the population of those in the study and the length of the stuy is not carried out long enough. 



pebble said:


> Studies like these get tossed into a review and then pushed into meta-analysis and all of a sudden the data has accumulated into a substantial amount which allows for relationships/correlations/ trends to emerge.  Every topic has to start somewhere, and this paper is only 3 years old, which you should know is not very old for science - it takes time for new studies to be conducted.
> 
> It is not as if this study is in a small no name journal, it is a very reputable journal and has been conducted by two of the top protein guys in the world, Mark and Stuart.   To further validate this study it has been cited multiple times in other peer reviewed reputable journals.  This is not some fly by the night article.



It a start and it provide a does provide a snap shot.  

However, empirical data is another part of the study.  

Often science works backwards.  It see what works and then works backwards to understand why.  



pebble said:


> Having a wide range of training expiernce was used because of Marks previous work.  He has shown that with less training experience you need more protein (to accomadate the weaker therefore more damanged sarcolemma).  By using a wide range of training expiernce and not seeing any statisticlly significant differences  (in what volume of whey elicited the greatest protein synthesis response) it reduces the need to conduct studies on specific populations.  If there was significant difference between the population ( ie less experience responded better to 40g and more experienced responded better to 20g) it would have encouraged interest in studying each specific population more in depth and likely warranted additional funding to do so.  Without the difference there is no need to conduct studies on specific populations.



*Law of Large Numbers*

Having wide range of individuals with training experience with six individuals dilutes the research even more.  

*Concentrated Population*

Having a larger number of the same population would have been a much better method.  

Thus, a study of one severly limits the snap shot of what is going on.  

As you noted above, that what most studies do.  



pebble said:


> Despite that one of the conclusions that can be made form this study spits in this faces of his thoughts.  20g whey maximally stimulates PS for novice, intermediate and advanced young males.



I believe that 20 gram of protein for novice lifter makes sense.  



pebble said:


> I have trained beside Charles and the man is very smart, but also very ignorant and CRAZY.  Have you seen the training principles he has?  Have you been to his seminars?  Did you look at his biosignature software?  Some of that stuff is big joke.
> 
> And his information does not relate to the people here.  All of his research is on high level athletes which I doubt many of the members are here.  Are we not looking for population specificity anymore?



*Poliquin *

Poliquin's information relates to people here.  

*Here again is what I stated: *

_Poliquin has often cited the problem with the majority of research is not using the right groups._

The point is, what works with one group doesn't necessarily work as well with another group.  

*Pulse Feeding Research*

One of the interesting things about Pulse Feeding was how much better protein was synthethized and absorbed in a specific population.  

*"Food is the ultimate drug." Barry Sears*

What's interesting is how you can manipulate food intake to create the effect (to some extent) that you want. 

Kenny Croxdale


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## bjg (Oct 16, 2011)

Kenny relax and calm down with your insults so far i have respected you, stop annoying people with your articles that you dug out from the internet, you know you can dig articles that say the opposite of what you are claiming, i have no time to do so.
As far as my knowledge and my logic, dude i am a professor of biomedical engineering graduated from texas A&M University in 1991 with a PHD, i have about 30 research articles and been teaching for 20 years or more, my CV alone is 25 pages much more than you read during your lifetime, so be civilized because if you are trying to intimidate or showing off with me i can show you that you are not up to the level in no time, but i have no time to waste on that.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 16, 2011)

bjg said:


> Kenny relax and calm down with your insults so far i have respected you,



*R-E-S-P-E-C-T*

Ya gotta love Aretha Frankin, don't you? 

*Back to Basics*

I find it hard to respect any indiviual who poses and an expert, yet clearly has limited knowledge. 



bjg said:


> stop annoying people with your articles that you dug out from the internet, you know you can dig articles that say the opposite of what you are claiming, i have no time to do so.



 *"i can show you studies"*

We're back to you making thing up as you go.  You claim you can show studies then you acknowledge that you have none...

_"i am sure you can look up some articles..."_*

Take Home Message*

The underlying message is you make things up as you go. 



bjg said:


> As far as my knowledge and my logic, dude i am a professor of biomedical engineering graduated from texas A&M University in 1991 with a PHD, i have about 30 research articles and been teaching for 20 years or more,



*Qulifications*

And that qualifites as a PhD in Steriodology? 

Post your resume.  I look forward to reading it.

Do you still live in College Station or Bryan, my old home town?  I really miss those Chicken Oil hamburgers on South College, don't you?  

*Dude*

I guess that a PhD term of endrement for buddy, right?




bjg said:


> my CV alone is 25 pages much more than you read during your lifetime,



Glad to find out that you are so familiar who I am and what I read.



bjg said:


> so be civilized because if you are trying to intimidate or showing off with me



*"How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is
To have a thankless child!"*

I simply was making an effort to educate you in an area you are weak in...and this is the thanks I get? 



bjg said:


> i can show you that you are not up to the level in no time, but i have no time to waste on that.



*No Time*

You just posted another message on one of the other board, so evidently you have a lot more time to waste than you realize.  http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/142179-steroids-2.html#post2510207

Kenny Croxdale


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## bjg (Oct 16, 2011)

[

Do you still live in College Station or Bryan, my old home town?  I really miss those Chicken Oil hamburgers on South College, don't you?  

*Dude*

I left college station in 1991 to do research and teach in other universities and yes i used to go to south college: Chicken oil burger, Dixie chiken and so on....and worked out at Jay's Gym in Bryan (now closed and home of some bad ass lifters including myself)) friend with owner Jay K. who used to nickname me lebanese bobcat (because i am lebanese) in reference to the lebanese lion Samir bannout Mr Olympia 1983 , and worked out at Golds Gym in college station which opened in the late 80's if i can remember.
Here is a nice story with Jay ....he challenge me once in pullups (because i was jokingly bugging him claiming that i was the undisputed pullup champion in the gym)   , he is a big 6ft2 guy and 220 lbs , i am a short guy 5'6 and at that time (1985) i was around 170 lbs i don't know something like that but his argument when he lost ( a big big loss i could easily do 3 times more than he did  ) was that i had the advantage because i was lighter ( which is a silly argument) so i hang on my waist  a 45 lbs plate with some chains so probably a total weight of 55 lbs this way i would be his weight and still managed to beat him by some margin ( I remember i had to stop at 15 reps after being tired from the first round, he did 12 .....and they were complete pullups no cheating )


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## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 17, 2011)

bjg said:


> [
> 
> Do you still live in College Station or Bryan, my old home town?  I really miss those Chicken Oil hamburgers on South College, don't you?
> 
> ...



*Jay's Gym*

I know Jay.  I use to go by and see him.  I worked right around the corner from him.  

*Twin City Athletic Club*

I worked out at Twin City Athletic Club on Counter between South Texas and South College.  

*Bennett Clayton*

Clayton owned the gym.  It was a powerlifitng gym

*Lifts*Clayton's best lifts back in the early 1980s were: 

Squat 816 lbs

Bench Press 510 

Deadlift 778  

I was a memeber of the Texas A&M Powerlifting team, at one time.  I continued to put on meets with them and assist them.  

*National Collegiate Championships*

Texas A&M won two national titles back in the 1980s. 

Many of the Texas A&M Powerlifters trained at Twin City Athletic Club.  It produced some nationally rated collegiate powerlifters.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## bjg (Oct 17, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> *Jay's Gym*
> 
> I know Jay.  I use to go by and see him.  I worked right around the corner from him.
> 
> ...


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## N21 (Oct 17, 2011)

IMO its always good after a workout to recover, youll be allot less sore if you take it. But you dont exactly need to take a protein shake as a main source of protein, when i dont have any protein i just go home after i workout and cook up some chicken, steak or fish, and make a side. Tunas good for protein too. So theres some options right there


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