# Clomiphene citrate is as good as HRT



## Arnold (May 30, 2010)

*Clomiphene citrate is as good as HRT –  and a lot cheaper*
_by Matt Cahill_




*
Cheaper than topical HRT gels*

Clomiphene  citrate is a selective estrogen  receptor modulator (SERM) marketed under  the brand name Clomid.  Originally designed as a female fertility drug,  Clomid is regularly  used by bodybuilders upon cessation of a steroid  cycle as part of their  post cycle therapy (PCT). This is done because  Clomid inhibits the  effect of estrogen in the pituitary thereby short  circuiting the  natural negative feedback loop that controls gonadotropin  release. The  result of this is an increase in Luteinizing hormone (LH)  which is a  hormone that tells the testes to produce testosterone. Clomid  also  inhibits the effect of estrogen in breast tissue, limiting the   potential for gynecomastia (male boobs). For this reason some  bodybuilders  also use Clomid during a cycle to avoid this, but more  often than not  another SERM called Nolvadex, or aromatase inhibitors  such as Arimidex  are used. But the general take-home message is that  Clomid raises testosterone  and antagonizes the effects of estrogen. A previous  study from 2005 has shown that use of Clomid  can pretty much  correct androgen deficiency when given to hypogonadal  men at a dose of  25mg/day for three months. While this gave the men  normal blood hormone  readings, I’ve also seen several cases on some  message boards somewhat  recently where normal men have used Clomid and  noticed their  testosterone levels increase significantly to supraphysiological   levels. One guy even claimed that he was now in the shape of his life   thanks to Clomid. And I guess this segues nicely into this updates  research  study.







Some good folk  from Rush  University Medical Center in Chicago have investigated the  comparative  effects of Clomid with typical hormone replacement therapy  (HRT) in the  form of Androgel or Testim (both topical gels). They decided  to assess  the contrast “with regard to biochemical and clinical efficacy  and  cost.” I found the latter both intriguing and somewhat refreshing.  Over  one hundred men were reviewed with just over half receiving Clomid  at  50mg every other day (EOD) and the rest either Androgel or Testim,  both  dosed at five grams per day. All the men in the review were determined   as hypogonadal which they determined as being testosterone levels below   300 ng/mL. The effects from both treatments after several months of   treatment were almost identical with the Clomid users reporting an  average  testosterone level of 573 ng/dL and the HRT users measuring in  at 553  ng/dL. But here’s the interesting bit, as the cost of medication  is  rarely factored into most clinical studies. The researchers  calculated  the monthly cost for each drug at the above dosing as  follows: Testim  - $270, Androgel - $265, and Clomid $83. Yep, you read  that right, Clomid  is as effective as HRT and clocks in at around 30%  of the price.







Clomid is,  however, not  completely side effect free. While any dose can give rise  to abdominal  pains, higher doses in the 150mg/day range can lead to blurring  of vision. It is also not entirely uncommon  for some bodybuilders  to report feeling overly emotional when using  Clomid, although this is  typically only during PCT. Ultimately, however,  I do not envisage any  problems if you follow the dosing scheme from  the study of 50mg EOD.

So in summary,  Clomid is as effective as HRT gels, taking it  EOD is a damn sight lot  easier than applying a topical gel daily, and  the cost is a hell of  a lot cheaper.


*Source: * _Taylor F, Levine L. Clomiphene  citrate and testosterone gel replacement  therapy for male hypogonadism:  efficacy and treatment cost.  J Sex Med. 2010 Jan;7(1 Pt 1):269-76.

_http://www.steroidtimes.com/clomiphene-citrate-is-as-good-as-hrt-–-and-a-lot-cheaper/2010


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## MDR (May 30, 2010)

Glad to hear it-Clomid has always been my choice.


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## Roaddkingg (May 30, 2010)

Interesting read Prince thank you for sharing. This raises a question for me and perhaps you can help. I start PCT in a few days and am planning on clomid and nolvadex. The clomid I planned on 100mgs for the first week and then another three weeks with just 50mgs. The nolvadex I was going to do 20mgs per day for four weeks followed by a fifth week of just 10mgs to taper off. Question is this....from the sounds of the article it seems it would be benificial for me to continue on the clomid after my scheduled PCT at say 50mgs EOD for a period of weeks or even months if I wanted and it would have a great effect on raising my test. Is this your assessment? If thats the case then we could run it between cycles perhaps along with a natural test booster and we would be good to go getting ready for a new cycle.


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## Arnold (May 30, 2010)

I don't really do PCT, I have been on HRT for over 10 years now. I use clomid if I feel any gyno coming on when I "blast".


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## Roaddkingg (May 30, 2010)

Thanks for your imput Prince. Perhaps someone else can chime in and see if my assessment makes sence. Where are ya heavy?


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## MDR (May 30, 2010)

In my opinion this is not a good idea.  I run Clomid post-cycle for four weeks and then give my body some time to recover without anything for awhile after PCT.  My feeling is that if you are going to cycle on and off, the period in-between cycles should be "clean" in order for things to return to normal.  Otherwise, why not just stay on HRT.  There are negative sides with everything-Clomid included.


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## Saney (May 30, 2010)

So if I run 100mgs of Clomid ED will that up my Testosterone to decent levels? 

How much Test would I need to inject to = 100mgs Clomid ED?


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## jmorrison (May 30, 2010)

Facinating Prince.  Great info!


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## Roaddkingg (May 30, 2010)

*Thanks MDR*

Thats kinda what I was thinking but I just thought I'd throw it out there for some opinions. Being clean in between cycles is best I'm sure. Just was curious.


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## juggernaut (May 30, 2010)

Thanks! Good stuff!


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## heavyiron (May 30, 2010)

Clomid raises circulating estradiol quite a bit, I would hold off on using it alone for androgen treatment.


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## Roaddkingg (May 30, 2010)

Thanks heavy. I knew you were lurking some where.


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## juggernaut (May 31, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> Clomid raises circulating estradiol quite a bit, I would hold off on using it alone for androgen treatment.


what would you suggest for basic HRT?


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## heavyiron (May 31, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> what would you suggest for basic HRT?


200mg cypionate weekly with a small dose of aromasin or adex. This will put total T and free T at the high end of the range in most males.


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## Saney (May 31, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> 200mg cypionate weekly with a small dose of aromasin or adex. This will put total T and free T at the high end of the range in most males.



What if I were to combine Testim %1 and Clomid? Would that "up" my test or just the same as using one agent?


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## klc9100 (May 31, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> 200mg cypionate weekly with a small dose of aromasin or adex. This will put total T and free T at the high end of the range in most males.


 
that's what my hrt consists of (200mg cyp / pharm grade) weekly. how much AI would need to be ran with that, heavy? i asked my doctor about and she looked at me like i had 2 heads and told me i didn;t need to worry about it.


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## heavyiron (May 31, 2010)

Saney said:


> What if I were to combine Testim %1 and Clomid? Would that "up" my test or just the same as using one agent?


 Yes but your circulating estradiol will be high.


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## heavyiron (May 31, 2010)

klc9100 said:


> that's what my hrt consists of (200mg cyp / pharm grade) weekly. how much AI would need to be ran with that, heavy? i asked my doctor about and she looked at me like i had 2 heads and told me i didn;t need to worry about it.


 Adex at 0.5mg 3-4 times weekly should bring E2 around 25-30pg/ml and get free T high.


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## Built (May 31, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> 200mg cypionate weekly with a small dose of aromasin or adex. This will put total T and free T at the high end of the range in most males.



It will put total and free above the high end of the range for most males. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just sayin'. 


Hubby's on 150mg pinned twice a week and he's well above the high end of normal - and has to donate blood to keep his red blood count down.


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## juggernaut (May 31, 2010)

Built said:


> It will put total and free above the high end of the range for most males. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just sayin'.


Does that mean the boys will be shut off at the rate that heavy suggested?


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## Saney (May 31, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> Yes but your circulating estradiol will be high.



What would be some side effects of higher levels of estradiol circulating around in a male?


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## Built (May 31, 2010)

Prostate and gyno come to mind. Elevated SHBG also, which reduces free bioavailable test.


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## Built (May 31, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> 200mg cypionate weekly with a small dose of aromasin or adex. This will put total T and free T at the high end of the range in most males.





juggernaut said:


> Does that mean the boys will be shut off at the rate that heavy suggested?



Anything at or above full replacement will do this. 

Below full replacement, shut down still occurs but not totally. 

Interestingly, published research suggests that at 25mg per week, there is no shutdown in eugonadal males - which to me suggests that one could feasibly "fly under the radar" with a very small dose of test. Most here probably aren't interested in such a small increase, but an increase is an increase and there would still be some positive effect, however small.

I seem to recall reading that the oral micronized undecanoate capsules can be taken in such a way as to avoid shutdown, but I'm feeling very very lazy at the moment. Perhaps someone has that study available and will post it up.


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## Saney (May 31, 2010)

Richard Gears said:
			
		

> Knockers! and a sudden urge to jam large pieces of furniture up your ass. Have you experienced any of these sides?




I've had wet dreams about Five Guys. Should I be worried? Am I in trouble?


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## heavyiron (May 31, 2010)

Saney said:


> What would be some side effects of higher levels of estradiol circulating around in a male?


 With the Clomid no gyno worries however you will have the chance of water retention which can cause high BP and then there is female fat pattern distribution and possible libido issues.


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## heavyiron (May 31, 2010)

Built said:


> It will put total and free above the high end of the range for most males. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just sayin'.
> 
> 
> Hubby's on 150mg pinned twice a week and he's well above the high end of normal - and has to donate blood to keep his red blood count down.


 That would depend on the day tested.


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## Built (May 31, 2010)

Exactly. Published data test the day before a weekly IM shot, and 125mg per week put most men in the upper half of the range - in other words, a 125mg weekly shot keeps a man at or above the midrange of normal right through to the end of the week. The day or two following administration of that weekly shot, he is likely to go supraphysiologic - or close to supraphysiologic. 

This is an important distinction to make for those who are planning to have blood drawn for testing.


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## juggernaut (Jun 1, 2010)

Built said:


> Exactly. Published data test the day before a weekly IM shot, and 125mg per week put most men in the upper half of the range - in other words, a 125mg weekly shot keeps a man at or above the midrange of normal right through to the end of the week. The day or two following administration of that weekly shot, he is likely to go supraphysiologic - or close to supraphysiologic.
> 
> This is an important distinction to make for those who are planning to have blood drawn for testing.


With the type of dosing you're recommending, there would little to no sides, am I right? Now will that include the benefit of increased recovery, working boys, increased protein uptake?


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## Built (Jun 1, 2010)

Good question.

The medical model for HRT is to dose in such a way as to keep the patient above the low limit of normal throughout the dosing interval. This usually translates to one shot of 100-200mg testosterone every two to three weeks to begin, titrating upward until "success", that is to say until the patient remains above the low level of normal all the way up to the next shot. 

This is hardly optimal. Dosing sufficiently high to ensure remaining above the lower bound by the end of the second week means levels will be supraphysiologic for part of the interval, and too low for comfort toward the end. It is at these extremities where side effects show - too high, and there is excess conversion to DHT and estrogen. Too low, and the patient experiences lethargy, depression, and ED. 

Published work suggests 125mg pinned weekly keeps the patient within the normal physiologic range; in fact it keeps most men in the top half of normal for the whole week. 150mg pinned weekly puts him at or above the top end of normal for about half the week. 

Pinning 150mg twice a week solves this problem, keeping levels right at the top of normal throughout the week. 

Hubby has seen profound gains from this strategy. The improvement in his mood and physique have been remarkable. Virtually zero sides - the only thing that has happened is his red blood count is slightly above range; in response, he donates blood regularly.


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## juggernaut (Jun 1, 2010)

Built said:


> Good question.
> 
> The medical model for HRT is to dose in such a way as to keep the patient above the low limit of normal throughout the dosing interval. This usually translates to one shot of 100-200mg testosterone every two to three weeks to begin, titrating upward until "success", that is to say until the patient remains above the low level of normal all the way up to the next shot.
> 
> ...



I noticed a short bout of ED after going from a blast cycle to a cruise of 300mg of test sust a week. My strength continued, but I did notice a lack of desire and a Mr. Softee a couple of times. I also noticed it went away and everything is functioning properly now. Is this normal? I will eventually get down to HRT levels with sust, but is this the normal transition?
Also, as I get down to that lower area of mgs, should I use some clomid to counteract any issues to turn the boys back on or no?


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## Saney (Jun 1, 2010)

Clomid doesn't work like that on cycle! that's what Prince or Robert told me


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## juggernaut (Jun 1, 2010)

Saney said:


> Clomid doesn't work like that on cycle! that's what Prince or Robert told me


I wasnt referring to cycling, I was referring to HRT levels and the transition.


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## Glycomann (Jun 1, 2010)

Built said:


> Exactly. Published data test the day before a weekly IM shot, and 125mg per week put most men in the upper half of the range - in other words, a 125mg weekly shot keeps a man at or above the midrange of normal right through to the end of the week. The day or two following administration of that weekly shot, he is likely to go supraphysiologic - or close to supraphysiologic.
> 
> This is an important distinction to make for those who are planning to have blood drawn for testing.



Also have to account for AI use.  An AI will drive more of the dose to stay test go to DHT.  With a AI in there at 200 mg/w at my trough I test at 1300-1400 in a normal range of 350-800 so well into the supraphysiologic. It's a nice place to be though.  I'm strong in the gym and still feel athletic since water retention and so on are not a problem. Still I drop the dose from time to time and frankly I feel healthiest when my hormones stay in range.  Definitely not at my most impressive there but I do like to feel "normal" from time to time. It's nice to go to the track and run a mile warm up then run sprints for 1/2 an hour without feeling like an overstuffed sausage with back pumps and hamstrings that fell like they're going to pop. This stuff use to be about health.  I like to try to keep that tradition alive at least from time to time.


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## Built (Jun 1, 2010)

Amen! LOL!


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## Buzzard (Jun 1, 2010)

Built said:
			
		

> It will put total and free above the high end of the range for most males. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just sayin'.
> 
> 
> Hubby's on 150mg pinned twice a week and he's well above the high end of normal - and has to donate blood to keep his red blood count down.



Why is keeping red blood count down important?


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## Built (Jun 1, 2010)

You don't want it down - you want it high, but normal. Too high and the blood basically gets too thick; there's an increased risk of stroke because the blood clots too easily.


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## juggernaut (Jun 2, 2010)

Built said:


> You don't want it down - you want it high, but normal. Too high and the blood basically gets too thick; there's an increased risk of stroke because the blood clots too easily.



I give blood once a year. If I do HRT at higher levels, how many times should I give blood a year...always willing to offer my "enriched" blood.


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## Built (Jun 2, 2010)

You'll just have to donate blood and see how long the effect persists. Everyone's different.


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## juggernaut (Jun 3, 2010)

what are the sides I am looking for when checking for this effect?


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## Built (Jun 3, 2010)

You look kinda red, for one. 

Here's a link for you to read: Polycythaemia (raised red cell count)


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## juggernaut (Jun 3, 2010)

a ruddy complexion
headache
blurred vision or patchy loss of vision
confusion
in extreme cases, stroke or coma.


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