# Training biceps..



## MrKeenan (Jul 9, 2011)

Obviously a sign of a good workout is being sore the day after, and each body part I train I can get this feeling EXCEPT biceps no matter how much I change my routine around. 

My split is:
Mon: Back
Tue: Triceps
Wed: Shoulders
Thur: *Biceps*
Fri: Chest
Sat: Legs
Sun: Rest

Typical workout would be:
Machine preacher curls x 3
Alternating dumbell curls x 3
Incline bench, dumbell curls x 3
Cable curls x 3 
One arm preacher curls x 3

I've tryed nearly everything. I've tryed incorporating an extra set onto the exercises (which I don't see the need to it being such a small muscle I shouldn't need this many exercises to stimulate), I've tryed negatives/partials, I've tryed training them on back day (which I don't like doing because i'm pretty drained from the bigger body parts that I have a seperate day for each body part which is why my split is how it is). 
For some reason barbell work never seems to work either no matter how good my form/weight I use is  

Any help would be appreciated guys


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## x~factor (Jul 9, 2011)

Is that you in your avatar?


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## Anabolic5150 (Jul 9, 2011)

You are doing way too much volume for such a small muscle group. You are blasting the biceps on Monday while doing back and then hitting them again on Thursday with 15 sets. It's no wonder they won't grow, they never get a chance to recover. I do maybe 6 sets a week for biceps and have never had an issue with them growing.


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## yeksetm (Jul 10, 2011)

I don't think being sore is always a good sign of a good workout.  I always get wicked DOMS after a squat day and FUCKEN hate the fact that I can't walk up stairs for days.

I reckon lifting heavier or for more reps is probably a better sign of a good workout.  I know other here love the fact that they get DOMS, each to there own.

I'm actually jealous that you have the time to workout 6 days a week!!


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## ecot3c inside (Jul 10, 2011)

how do you do only biceps in one day?? either you spend 35mins at the gym or your blasting the shit out of them.


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## PushAndPull (Jul 10, 2011)

Not being sore does not mean you didn't have a good workout.
Increasing muslce size and workout weight is how you gauge progression, not soreness.


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## Pittsburgh63 (Jul 10, 2011)

IMO you're doing way too much for such a small muscle... I usually do either 3 different excersise for 2 sets or 2 exercises for 3 sets.

Like 5150 said, your biceps are getting worked on other days as well.


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## Moneytoblow (Jul 10, 2011)

MrKeenan said:


> Obviously a sign of a good workout is being sore the day after, and each body part I train I can get this feeling EXCEPT biceps no matter how much I change my routine around.
> 
> My split is:
> Mon: Back
> ...



You should try a different split and only lift 3-4 times a week. An example would be:
monday:tricep/chest
tuesday: off
wednesday:legs
thursday: off
friday:back/biceps/delts

As 5150 mentioned, you need to give your body time to recover. You should try some barbell curls, preachers, and hammers-1-2 sets each with very slow and controlled contractions. Adding extra sets won't do anything if the intensity isn't there. You should lift 3-4days a week max and take extra days off if you need it.


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## MrKeenan (Jul 10, 2011)

x~factor said:


> Is that you in your avatar?


 
haha no, i tryed to get it bigger to show it was Ed Nunn and not me but don't think noobs can get it any larger


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## MrKeenan (Jul 10, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> You are doing way too much volume for such a small muscle group. You are blasting the biceps on Monday while doing back and then hitting them again on Thursday with 15 sets. It's no wonder they won't grow, they never get a chance to recover. I do maybe 6 sets a week for biceps and have never had an issue with them growing.


 
How can I judge time to recover though if I'm not feeling it in my bi's on the monday? This is why I do them on the thursday to try hit them hard but still get no response? But yes your right about the sets i'm just trying this to get a better feeling from the workout


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## MrKeenan (Jul 10, 2011)

yeksetm said:


> I don't think being sore is always a good sign of a good workout. I always get wicked DOMS after a squat day and FUCKEN hate the fact that I can't walk up stairs for days.
> 
> I reckon lifting heavier or for more reps is probably a better sign of a good workout. I know other here love the fact that they get DOMS, each to there own.
> 
> ...


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## yeksetm (Jul 10, 2011)

*A lot more spare time now I've finished college for a while haha*

Yes I remember my university days.  12 hours a week of lectures (if I attended), 4 to 5 months off for the summer break. I fuckin miss those days!Now I have a job, morgage and a wife.  Enjoy that stage of your life while it lasts.

Just because you aren't feeling anything in your bi's doesn't mean your progressing.  Have they gotten bigger? Have you gotten stronger? I would suggest you go to Gaz's website getlifting.info and have a look at some of the programs he has on there.  There is some serious mass related programs on there or if your going for strength have a look at the Texas Full Body method.  I used it a while back and found the 5x5 days demanding.


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## MrKeenan (Jul 10, 2011)

To be honest I have got stronger just the growth isn't there, I've seen however an increase in size and strength for triceps of which I have the same sort of set/rep amount as biceps, but I guess they must be a little different


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## sassy69 (Jul 10, 2011)

5 straight days of upper body is waaay overkill. And as said above - you're working bis & tris w/ the larger chest, back &shoulder days w/o any time to recover. Guidance is to give at least 36-48 hrs for a muscle group to recover before you train it again. Eventually IMO you're going to run into overtraining issues and develop some stress issues in your joints - rotator / elbow /wrist. DOMS and all that is really not a way to determine how frequently to train the same muscle group. Primarly because people tend to fixate on a particular muscle group they think is lagging and then will start to only pay attention to that. Everyone is born w/ stronger and weaker muscle groups - fixating on the weaker ones because they aren't producing results at the same rate as your stronger ones, isn't necessarily going to make things better. Your body as a whole is still being guided by the same rate of stress it can take, recovery it can produce - so you need to keep the same overall pace. And also keepiing in mind that bis & tris are not large muscle groups and are recruited as part of using your larger muscle groups so not really necessary to treat them like a "primary" group. Look at powerlifters - squat / push / pull (the big muscle groups) and all the other stuff is considered accessory work. and done (if at all) on days when the larger muscle groups are recovering.

Something that might help you is to look at an active recovery schedule where you do complimentary muscle groups on the same day - e.g. back & bis, and then the following week, or if you want to do more frequent workout of the same muscle groups, reverse the order and intensity - e.g.  Monday: Heavy back, light bis, Thursday: Heavy bis, light back. This also gives the chance to work them twice, but still give them time to recover. Even tho guidance is at least 2 days between trainig the same muscle group, it is not necessary to do it every 2 days - the more days you can allow yoru body to recovery, the better. You can apply larger cycles to help support result - e.g. heavy for 4-5 weeks, then a couple of light weeks (ref: periodization).

Lots of ways you can schedule your work outs - but what you're doing is not optimal by any stretch and IMO will start to produce some damage in the not too distant future.


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## MrKeenan (Jul 10, 2011)

Thanks for your help  Sassy wouldn't that diminish people saying I need to recover if I wanted to train biceps and back twice a week on both monday and thursday, as they won't have time to rest?


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## Anabolic5150 (Jul 10, 2011)

MrKeenan said:


> How can I judge time to recover though if I'm not feeling it in my bi's on the monday? This is why I do them on the thursday to try hit them hard but still get no response? But yes your right about the sets i'm just trying this to get a better feeling from the workout



You can't really judge recovery in the way you are looking for. Recovery IMO is determined by growth and nutrition. Resting a muscle, letting it heal is what causes growth. Think about a cut, it starts to scab over, to heal. But if you pick at it, it never heals or heals super slow. You have to give the microscopic tears in the muscle time to heal, to get larger.

Try doing biceps with chest if you don't like doing them with back. If it was me, I'd do chest and triceps, legs, shoulders and back and biceps together training on Mon-Tues-Thurs-Fri.

But that's just me.


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## sassy69 (Jul 10, 2011)

MrKeenan said:


> Thanks for your help  Sassy wouldn't that diminish people saying I need to recover if I wanted to train biceps and back twice a week on both monday and thursday, as they won't have time to rest?



I thought I addressed that. My point was that just because 2 days is the recommended, it is the MIN recommended and more is also an option. Do you understand that part? W/ this full week of training schedule that you have I want to make sure you aren't interpreting this rule of thumb literally and setting up schedule that is down to 2 days recover and that's the only consideration, still w/ too many days overall, back to back of training. Many people think they are "hardcore" because they never take a day off from the gym when in fact they are sorely naive in missing the importance of the 3rd leg of the fitness lifestyle - diet, training & recovery.

What I described w/ active recovery is that sure, you're having 2 back & bi days within the same week. But they are not the same identical and itensive workout - the first is, e.g. BACK focused, w/ a couple light bi exercises, then the second day is BI focused w/ some light back.  

I'm only giving this as an example and am not addressing any of the othre days or whstever you train. 

I would recommend you spend some time reading about periodization to better structure your training. I get that you're very enthusiastic about training, so do it better. In fact I'd point you to do some reading on Mark Rippetoe's 5x5 training & periodization to help you with this.


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## x~factor (Jul 10, 2011)

MrKeenan said:


> haha no, i tryed to get it bigger to show it was Ed Nunn and not me but don't think noobs can get it any larger



Nice of you to change your avatar on me. Now I look like an idiot asking the question.


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## minimal (Jul 10, 2011)

is OP a frog?


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## LittleV (Jul 10, 2011)

Maybe you should work on resting them first, and then give them an  intense work out around three times a week? Do they grow at all?


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## LittleV (Jul 10, 2011)

x~factor said:


> Is that you in your avatar?



Why, what is wrong with his avatar? Its kermit the frog!


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## Tiroof! (Jul 11, 2011)

MrKeenan said:


> To be honest I have got stronger just the growth isn't there, I've seen however an increase in size and strength for triceps of which I have the same sort of set/rep amount as biceps, but I guess they must be a little different


 

Ya its called muscular endurance. Again do what everyone is telling you man. Low reps. 5-7 max. That will give you bigger size and overall strength. Your muscular endurance may go down but your worried about size.
I also used to do like 15 reps and 20 reps shit sets. Trust me make it harder lower it down. Also your probably getting BURNED your doing set after set of a similar pulling movement. Try supersetting with abs or something.


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## RAWS n More (Jul 11, 2011)

15 sets is to much for bi's. I blast mine nice and heavy the first movement like straight bar curls. Ill go heavy for 3-4 sets and Blast them. I then go to 12-15 reps and really concentrate on the squeeze and negative with dumbbells and sometimes a machine movement. You can get an incredible workout in way less than an hour, and just 6-8 sets. No i will not post pics,but i have a cold 19.5 arm. I ALWAYS superset bi's and tri's though. 6' plus and 280 at the moment.


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## MrKeenan (Jul 11, 2011)

Really underestimated barbell work  tryed some preachers today and got a great feeling taking good care of my form.


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## Flathead (Jul 13, 2011)

Your upper volume is way too much. My suggestion would be two upper days & two lower. The key to the gun show is heavy deads.


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## ANIMALHAUS (Jul 13, 2011)




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## MrKeenan (Jul 13, 2011)

?


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## rjackd1 (Jul 15, 2011)

Wow....more rest, and less consecutive upper body days, as has been said...also, soreness is not an indication of hypertrophy, also to echo above...


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## CaptainNapalm (Jul 17, 2011)

In my 10 years of lifting experience, I've had some of the best bicep gains when I did little to no isolation for them but focused rather on compound lifts which hit the bi's indirectly.  In that time I also remember almost no bicep soreness post workouts.  I dont think DOMS is an indicator of a good workout.


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## GearsMcGilf (Jul 17, 2011)

RAWS n More said:


> i have a cold 19.5 arm. I ALWAYS superset bi's and tri's though. 6' plus and 280 at the moment.



Wow.  19.5" blubbed out arms with a 44" waist.  That's impressive.


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## MrKeenan (Jul 17, 2011)

CaptainNapalm said:


> In my 10 years of lifting experience, I've had some of the best bicep gains when I did little to no isolation for them but focused rather on compound lifts which hit the bi's indirectly. In that time I also remember almost no bicep soreness post workouts. I dont think DOMS is an indicator of a good workout.


 
Can you give any examples mate? Other than deads?


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## njc (Jul 17, 2011)

Why would you dedicate an entire day to biceps?  Ive never heard of anybody doing that I don't think.  Some people don't do any direct work for biceps at all.  I'm one of them; and my biceps are one of my strong points.


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## sassy69 (Jul 17, 2011)

Something eles I can see happening w/ a dedicated bicep day over time, plus the daily work you do (e.g. if you sit at a chair) plus the additional work it gets on back day - tendonitis baby, and lots of it. Wrist & forearm. Something similar to "tennis elbow" is very common. An example is when you realize it hurts too much to use a straight bar and you have to start using the ezcurl bar.


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## CaptainNapalm (Jul 17, 2011)

MrKeenan said:


> Can you give any examples mate? Other than deads?



BB rows, pull-ups (lat pulldowns), chin-ups, rack pulls, deadlifts, dips going heavy all attributed to my best size gains for arms.  No need for fancy isolation or days dedicated for biceps for optimal growth, I think that may even be counter productive.


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## To_The_Top (Jul 19, 2011)

Great advice given on this thread! This helped me a lot! Thanks


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## skinnyd (Jul 21, 2011)

how about bi's and tri's together great pump thats what I do.


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## Zaphod (Jul 21, 2011)

skinnyd said:


> how about bi's and tri's together great pump thats what I do.



Essentially there really is no reason to directly target the biceps and triceps.  It may work for some, but not for most.  Once in a while to break up the routine, sure.  But on a regular basis, probably not.


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## carmineb (Jul 21, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> You are doing way too much volume for such a small muscle group. You are blasting the biceps on Monday while doing back and then hitting them again on Thursday with 15 sets. It's no wonder they won't grow, they never get a chance to recover. I do maybe 6 sets a week for biceps and have never had an issue with them growing.


 

the only time I noticed my arms giving me any improvement was when I first went back to the gym, within the first 3 mos.  the volume was lower, I did 6 sets, sets 3 exercises, one of which was hammers, preacher and an incline dumbell curl...  All I did and they always seemed harder and full.

I have gone and done 15 sets and no matter what I have done in recent months, they arent going anywhee,  high volume light, 3 sets, 3-4 exercises, etc....

I have been thinking that I have been overtraining them  even tho they did get sronger, I am after hypertrophy.

Going back to basic routine, low volume, see if I get anything from it.


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## MrKeenan (Jul 21, 2011)

Stopped seperate bi & tri days now, advice came at the right time really because there's a pain starting in my right elbow that I feel the worst doing skullcrushers and overhead dumbell pushups. 

Going to introduce more compound exercises next week to my routine and see how that goes with little to no isolation work. I did previously used to do deads but I hurt my back bad when I was much younger doing them with an insane weight for my size at the time along with a terrible form.. which pretty much scared me off from doing them all together anymore haha. 

On another note i'm trying to get the technique for the squat nailed but I always end up on my tip toes haha; always wanted to add this to my routine as I've progressed quite well on the leg press with my best being 661 for 6


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## MrKeenan (Jul 21, 2011)

Also I was thinking today could this be a case of my shoulder training not being effective enough? I mean, you don't see someone with good arms without good shoulders?


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## stfuandliftbtch (Jul 22, 2011)

MrKeenan said:


> Obviously a sign of a good workout is being sore the day after, and each body part I train I can get this feeling EXCEPT biceps no matter how much I change my routine around.
> 
> My split is:
> Mon: Back
> ...






-Being sore the next day doesnt necessarily mean you had a good workout..obviously..

-Triceps before Shoulder day(military press, etc.) Sounds like a perfect schedule for overtraining your tris... 

-no need to give tris or bis their own seperate day..sounds a bit like a waste of a training day..


Try THIS...next time you go do your arm bicep,(yes arm bicep, you ham has a bicep too..i.e Bicep Femoris) try 10 or less sets. It may not seem like a lot, but up your intensity and make it so you can barely do your last set. Because if you can complete 15 SETS of BICEPS, I GUARENTEE your intensity isn't up to par.


Barbell work doesn't seem to work? LOL wtF?


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## MrKeenan (Jul 23, 2011)

The thing was, the intensity WAS there thats why I couldn't understand what was going on. Although the advice from this thread I've changed everything around.

Barbell work didn't work because no matter what I tried, whether increasing the weight for more intensity or decreasing slightly to get a better form I wouldn't see any results.


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## stfuandliftbtch (Jul 23, 2011)

MrKeenan said:


> The thing was, the intensity WAS there thats why I couldn't understand what was going on. Although the advice from this thread I've changed everything around.
> 
> Barbell work didn't work because no matter what I tried, whether increasing the weight for more intensity or decreasing slightly to get a better form I wouldn't see any results.




how long have you been working out consistently?

under a year?

if so, your beginning strength gain for the first few months were all psychological. Your body was learning how to activate more motor units in your muscle cells. Due to this you get a rapid increase in muscle..up to 20 lbs in the first year. If you just finished this initial mass increase due to just starting training, your progess will slow down up to 1/10 of the progress you were making due to G.A.S.(general adaption syndrome). Instead of 1-2lbs of muscle a month, it might be more like 1-2 every few months for many people.


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## OneWheyOrAnother (Jul 23, 2011)

stfuandliftbtch said:


> Instead of 1-2lbs of muscle a month, it might be more like 1-2 every few months for many people.



Source ?


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## MrKeenan (Jul 23, 2011)

stfuandliftbtch said:


> how long have you been working out consistently?
> 
> under a year?
> 
> if so, your beginning strength gain for the first few months were all psychological. Your body was learning how to activate more motor units in your muscle cells. Due to this you get a rapid increase in muscle..up to 20 lbs in the first year. If you just finished this initial mass increase due to just starting training, your progess will slow down up to 1/10 of the progress you were making due to G.A.S.(general adaption syndrome). Instead of 1-2lbs of muscle a month, it might be more like 1-2 every few months for many people.


 
Working out consistently for about 2 years, with my diet more in place and set out since the last 8 months


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## njc (Jul 23, 2011)

stfuandliftbtch said:


> how long have you been working out consistently?
> 
> under a year?
> 
> if so, your beginning strength gain for the first few months were all psychological. Your body was learning how to activate more motor units in your muscle cells. Due to this you get a rapid increase in muscle..up to 20 lbs in the first year. If you just finished this initial mass increase due to just starting training, your progess will slow down up to 1/10 of the progress you were making due to G.A.S.(general adaption syndrome). Instead of 1-2lbs of muscle a month, it might be more like 1-2 every few months for many people.


 

"Neurological" not "psychological."


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## stfuandliftbtch (Jul 23, 2011)

chronicelite said:


> Source ?



its a rough guess and pretty persist one in fact. Gaining 15-20lbs the first year is very common..is that common to gain 15+lbs during your 2nd, 3rd, etc year? No... 1-2lbs every few months, which is anywhere from 4-12lbs of muscle a year, is more like your gains following the years after your neurological adaptions. Of course you won't continue gaining 4-12lbs a year every year, they eventually start declining, but this is obvious to most.

This information does not require a source. I have been studying for the past 3 months at the School of Exercise & Training Science. Monday-Thursday, 5 hours a day. The course has 1 month left. I will be graduating with 3 certifications and be 100% ready for my NSCA test. Which, by the way, is one of the top 2 personal training certifications you can acquire.

In other words, I don't need a source..


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## stfuandliftbtch (Jul 23, 2011)

njc said:


> "Neurological" not "psychological."




yea my bad, i had a brain fart. that's what happens at like 2am =P.. i tried to edit it earlier but i dont know if it wouldnt let me or if i was brain dead. but yes, that's correct.


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## MrKeenan (Jul 24, 2011)

I put on 21lbs in the second year and I've recorded my weight since November so I've got an accurate result of how much weight I've gained every couple of weeks. 

Estimating my first year I've got a recording of being 186lbs in December 2009 so it took me 11 months to put on 16lbs to hit 202lbs when I first recorded what I weighed. Obviously this weight isn't all muscle


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## Merkaba (Jul 24, 2011)

Looks like you've got sound advice so far.  I haven't seen much mention of diet.  I always bring that up as well in this type of thread.   

There isn't a replacement for things like heavy rows and pull ups.  Nothing allows you to load the biceps like heavy back work. 

And yes I'd lilke to just reiterate that soreness, etc., has little to do with anything.


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## BigMuffin (Jul 25, 2011)

Your biceps should grow from murdering yourself on back day alone. They will always give out before your back does and just like 5150 said you are probably over trainnig them. 3 sets of BB Curls and 3 sets of Rev BB Curls are great.


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## Zaphod (Jul 25, 2011)

sassy69 said:


> Something eles I can see happening w/ a dedicated bicep day over time, plus the daily work you do (e.g. if you sit at a chair) plus the additional work it gets on back day - tendonitis baby, and lots of it. Wrist & forearm. Something similar to "tennis elbow" is very common. An example is when you realize it hurts too much to use a straight bar and you have to start using the ezcurl bar.



That happened to me a couple years ago.  Both arms at the same time.


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## carmineb (Jul 25, 2011)

Zaphod said:


> That happened to me a couple years ago. Both arms at the same time.


 

yup!  when I use a straight bar, I have to hold it inside shoulder width to put more pressure on the outside bicep head and away from teh belly and forearms when I go shoulder or slightly more.  I think the EZ bar sort of creates a similar angle.  once the bicep is warmed up, it doesnt bother me as much.


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## Calves of Steel (Jul 25, 2011)

try doing an 8 rep set of barbell curls and only performing the top half of the movement, then immediately afterwards doing a few reps with full ROM. your biceps should get REALLY pumped


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## carmineb (Jul 26, 2011)

Calves of Steel said:


> try doing an 8 rep set of barbell curls and only performing the top half of the movement, then immediately afterwards doing a few reps with full ROM. your biceps should get REALLY pumped


 

I've done 21s in hte past month, got a great pump for sure....  I like using POF style (point of flexion) so I might do bb curl followed by incline dumbell curls followed by preacher.....

Or sandhing hammer incline spiders/concentration curls......  In that way I am sort of doing the same   I think for me it is volume.  volume, I dont grow....

I did last night:  3 sets bb EZ curls, 2 sets incline dumbell, 2 sets  hammer curls......  all 4-8 reps   and I feel they wee worked out....


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