# Bench press - but not all the way down. Really!?



## Big G (Nov 6, 2007)

I'm tall, ectomorphic and thin (used to much thinner - bulking out just fine). 

I have long forearms. Therefore, when I'm bench pressing, if I lower the bar all the way down to my chest my elbows are below my back. 

Reading "Scrawny to Brawny" last night it says that pressing from this low down places undue stress on my shoulders and can eventually lead to injury. 

To avoid going too low it recommended placing a rolled up towel on my chest and only lowering the weight to the point at which my elbows are level with the bench (or my back).

It also recommended keeping my elbows closer to my sides, rather than having them out near 90º as is typically done.

Is everyone in agreement with this? 

Just FYI... Scrawny to Brawny is a book especially for ectomorphs (or tall skinny people) and recommends a slightly different form for squats, bench press (and other compound movements) due to the biomechanical (i.e. shape) of the ectomorphic body (long limbs, short muscles, mostly slow-twitch etc).


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## Witchblade (Nov 6, 2007)

A thread on T-Nation called "Why Lurch Can't Grow" talked about this, IIRC.


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## min0 lee (Nov 6, 2007)

OK, but what if you have a huge chest?



Nevermind, I didn't read the scrawny part.


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## Big G (Nov 6, 2007)

*Why Lurch Won't grow.*

Here's the link to that article - save you searching t-nation

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=461061&cr=

I'm reading it now.

Thanks!


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## AKIRA (Nov 6, 2007)

Good read.  However...

"To do Rebounds, rather than lower the bar in a controlled fashion, or even rather than let it fall quickly to the chest, you literally pull the bar into your chest. When it hits, you reverse direction as rapidly as possible and power the bar up. "

Not so sure about this idea..


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## JonnyStead (Nov 6, 2007)

Broadly my view is its OK - if you have long arms etc then why not. People get very wound up about this one (like ass to grass in squats) ultimately as long as your form is good (not doing anything that will hurt you), your range of motion is consistent as you go up in weight and you're seeing both visible and incremental gains - why the hell not?! good luck!


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## ALBOB (Nov 6, 2007)

JonnyStead said:


> Broadly my view is its OK - if you have long arms etc then why not. People get very wound up about this one (like ass to grass in squats) ultimately as long as your form is good (not doing anything that will hurt you), your range of motion is consistent as you go up in weight and you're seeing both visible and incremental gains - why the hell not?! good luck!



This is my feeling as well.  I'm of the opinion that the greater your range of motion, the more benefit you get from the exercise.  If you use a nice slow tempo up and down, with a slight pause at the bottom, I see no reason you need to worry about a shoulder injury.


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## Big G (Nov 6, 2007)

AKIRA said:


> Good read.  However...
> 
> "To do Rebounds, rather than lower the bar in a controlled fashion, or even rather than let it fall quickly to the chest, you literally pull the bar into your chest. When it hits, you reverse direction as rapidly as possible and power the bar up. "
> 
> Not so sure about this idea..



Yeah. I let that one slide too.


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## Big G (Nov 6, 2007)

JonnyStead said:


> Broadly my view is its OK - if you have long arms etc then why not. People get very wound up about this one (like ass to grass in squats) ultimately as long as your form is good (not doing anything that will hurt you), your range of motion is consistent as you go up in weight and you're seeing both visible and incremental gains - why the hell not?! good luck!



But if it's not working your pecs at the base of the movement then why bother? If I wanted a shoulder workout I'd be doing military presses.


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## Witchblade (Nov 6, 2007)

It's not as simple as 'pecs do half, triceps do other half'.


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## Big G (Nov 6, 2007)

Scrawny to Brawny says (basically) tall guys with long forearms risk shoulder injuries by going too low. To maximize pec involvment elbows should be at 45º to body (not 90º, like many people do) and bar should be lowered to point where elbows are level with bench. 

A personal trainer at the gym today agreed.  

Do you disagree?


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## Mudge (Nov 6, 2007)

Big G said:


> But if it's not working your pecs at the base of the movement then why bother? If I wanted a shoulder workout I'd be doing military presses.



Benching is a compound movement, you are going to use your shoulders period. This is why big benchers do not do lots of direct shoulder work, it isn't needed.


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## Mudge (Nov 6, 2007)

Big G said:


> Scrawny to Brawny says (basically) tall guys with long forearms risk shoulder injuries by going too low. To maximize pec involvment elbows should be at 45º to body (not 90º, like many people do) and bar should be lowered to point where elbows are level with bench.



Yes you want your elbows close to your SIDES somewhat. If you flair out the elbows like many bodybuilders do, you risk shoulder injuries.

This has nothing to do with how low the elbow is in relation to your back.

The following link is in my signature:
Lifting Pictures


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## min0 lee (Nov 6, 2007)

> She is using her legs to drive her shoulders into the bench even harder


I saw the link and I like her leg placement, too often I see people lift their legs in the air.


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## Mudge (Nov 6, 2007)

Watch where this person's elbows are, they are way out in space. This would KILL my shoulders with the weights I use, even with 2 plates I am hurting just thinking about it. This type of form uses the shoulders very heavily.

Now move the elbows down and bring them tighter to the body, touch lower on the chest - and voila, much of the shoulder stress is removed.

Dave Tate on the subject of benching:
How to Increase Bench Press


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## AKIRA (Nov 6, 2007)

I am having a hard time comparing the two forms.  If I saw a pic of the same person, of the same angle, I could understand completely.  For instance, if the camera was facing the bench (or the spotter) and was elevated, I could see what is being done.


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## GA_Man_in_Cali (Nov 6, 2007)

Don't forget that the way we perform our exercises as bodybuilders will differ drastically from power-lifting form. We're going for maximum muscle stimulation, they are just trying to move as much weight as physically possible. Don't try and compare the two as if one is intrinsically right and one is not. That guy in the pic has great form for a powerlift, but terrible form for achieving a bodybuilder's goals of muscular development.


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## Witchblade (Nov 7, 2007)

Bench pressing powerlifting style is simply not a very good chest exercise. Neck presses are, but they come with a risk for your shoulders.


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## highpockets (Nov 7, 2007)

I'm 6'8" and probably have arms longer than anyone that is 6'2". I've been lifting for years, lowering the bar to my chest (full range) and have NEVER had problems with my shoulders nor suffered any injuries. I believe form is the key. During the lift I imagine that my back is being pressed through the bench, with just a very slight arch (1" maybe) to my lower back. Both feet are firmly pressed into the floor and never come off the floor. I think it's important to have very good control of the bar on the way down. I do not bounce the bar off of my chest like too many wannabees in the local gyms, however as soon as the bar touches my chest I concentrate on exploding the bar upwards.

PR'd last night matter of fact with 320 lbs., not bad for an old man! Had my 18 year old daughter's boyfriend spotting me. You should have seen his face when I was done and gave him that "Don't fuck with my daughter look!" LOL!


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## juggernaut2005 (Nov 7, 2007)

highpockets said:


> I'm 6'8" and probably have arms longer than anyone that is 6'2". I've been lifting for years, lowering the bar to my chest (full range) and have NEVER had problems with my shoulders nor suffered any injuries. I believe form is the key. During the lift I imagine that my back is being pressed through the bench, with just a very slight arch (1" maybe) to my lower back. Both feet are firmly pressed into the floor and never come off the floor. I think it's important to have very good control of the bar on the way down. I do not bounce the bar off of my chest like too many wannabees in the local gyms, however as soon as the bar touches my chest I concentrate on exploding the bar upwards.
> 
> PR'd last night matter of fact with 320 lbs., not bad for an old man! Had my 18 year old daughter's boyfriend spotting me. You should have seen his face when I was done and gave him that *"Fuck with my daughter look!" *LOL!



You dirty old man!


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## min0 lee (Nov 7, 2007)

6'8'' wOW!


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## Mudge (Nov 7, 2007)

Witchblade said:


> Bench pressing powerlifting style is simply not a very good chest exercise. Neck presses are, but they come with a risk for your shoulders.



The first thing everyone notices about me seems to be my chest, YMMV.


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## Big G (Nov 7, 2007)

Mudge said:


> Watch where this person's elbows are, they are way out in space. This would KILL my shoulders with the weights I use, even with 2 plates I am hurting just thinking about it. This type of form uses the shoulders very heavily.
> 
> Now move the elbows down and bring them tighter to the body, touch lower on the chest - and voila, much of the shoulder stress is removed.



Right. That's what I've read too. Bar ends up lower on the chest. Greater pec involvement. Less shoulders.

So... all the way down, even for longer forearmed guys like highpockets & me?



Mudge said:


> The first thing everyone notices about me seems to be my chest, YMMV.



Dangit! I wanna write that. 

Shoot.


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## Uthinkso (Nov 8, 2007)

After I hurt my shoulder my buddy thats a BB looked at my form and damn near slapped the taste out of my mouth. I was lowering the weight down over my shoulders, which forced my elbows out at a point. I moved the bar further forward so that it hits my chest in "central nipple" and it took much more stress of my shoulders. Also my arms at at my sides at the bottom of the movement.

With declines, I still focus the weight over my shoulders too much and just hurt my shoulder again.


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## Mudge (Nov 8, 2007)

I'm even lower than nipple, FWIW at 6'2" I have an 85" reach which seem to be very long arms whoever I compare them with (who is around my size).


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## Uthinkso (Nov 8, 2007)

Mudge said:


> I'm even lower than nipple, FWIW at 6'2" I have an 85" reach which seem to be very long arms whoever I compare them with (who is around my size).



I'm 6'1" I'll have to measure later and see what I come up with. I assume your measuring across your arm span finger tip to finger tip?


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## AKIRA (Nov 8, 2007)

Mudge said:


> I'm even lower than nipple, FWIW at 6'2" I have an 85" reach which seem to be very long arms whoever I compare them with (who is around my size).



Damn that might be longer than Tim Sylvia's reach...but I cant find it on sherdog..


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## Witchblade (Nov 8, 2007)

Bar to abs, less chest involvement. Bar to neck, lots of chest involvement.


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## AKIRA (Nov 8, 2007)

I go just below nipple line.  As far as my elbows are...I dont really know.  I think they arent tucked, though.


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## Big G (Nov 8, 2007)

Witchblade said:


> Bar to abs, less chest involvement. Bar to neck, lots of chest involvement.



Huh? This seems contrary to what's written above.


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## Witchblade (Nov 8, 2007)

Big G said:


> Huh? This seems contrary to what's written above.


Well, it's true. There is less transverse flexion.


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## Big G (Nov 8, 2007)

Witchblade said:


> Well, it's true. There is less transverse flexion.



OK. Fair enough. That means less shoulder involvement, right?

So... Elbows in close (e.g. 45º) to sides or elbows out at 90º?
Bar lowered all the way down to neck, or to where elbows level with bench?



			
				Everyone said:
			
		

> .



Is everyone else in agreement with the decreased wadjamacallit ("transverse flexion") and increased pec involvement doing benches this way?


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## Witchblade (Nov 8, 2007)

Elbows out/lowering to neck => most chest involvement, more ROM, less weight and shoulder injury risk

Elbows in/lowering to nipples => less chest involement, more weight, less ROM and less shoulder injury risk


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## Seanp156 (Nov 8, 2007)

GA_Man_in_Cali said:


> That guy in the pic has great form for a powerlift, but terrible form for achieving a bodybuilder's goals of muscular development.



That's debatable, most powerlifters tuck their elbows in quite a bit, and bring the bar pretty low on their bellies. The guy in the picture is bringing the bar fairly high, elbows out, and wrists aren't rolled back either... Benching like that may be necessary to move big weights raw depending on someone's build, but it's more dangerous to shoulder health and increases the risk of tearing a pec. There's no way he could bench like that in a shirt.

If your main goal with bench pressing is muscle stimulation, I'd suggest going with dumbbells. It's safer and more effective in my opinion than doing wide grip "neck presses" using a barbell.


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## Uthinkso (Nov 8, 2007)

Mudge said:


> I'm even lower than nipple, FWIW at 6'2" I have an 85" reach which seem to be very long arms whoever I compare them with (who is around my size).



Yes you do have long arms. I'm 6'1" as mentioned and my reach measured finger tip to finger tip across my back (no chest in the way) was 80".


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## Dale Mabry (Nov 8, 2007)

Big G said:


> Scrawny to Brawny says (basically) tall guys with long forearms risk shoulder injuries by going too low. To maximize pec involvment elbows should be at 45º to body (not 90º, like many people do) and bar should be lowered to point where elbows are level with bench.
> 
> A personal trainer at the gym today agreed.
> 
> Do you disagree?



More chest involvement occurs with the elbows out at 90, but if you keep your elbows out at 90, you aren't typically going to be pressing much weight.  If you do it won't be for long because it puts the rotator cuff in a shitty position to do it's job.

At the end of the day, go as low as you want.  I would recommend going as low as you can.  I would attempt a lighter weight and work up from there.


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## buening (Nov 13, 2007)

Generally speaking, the lower half of the press movement maximizes chest involvement and the upper half of the movement maximizes tricep involvement. Not going low will reduce what's little chest involvement there is, thus turning it into mainly a tricep exercise. Going too low will cause shoulder/rotator cuff impingement. I recommend rotator cuff exercises to keep shoulders nice and healthy for military presses and bench. I do dumbbell presses for the most part, and when i do barbell presses i typically use the powerlifting grip (elbows tucked, barbell down to lower chest/upper abdominal region). This has worked well for me. If you really want to keep a healthy shoulder, go with the DB's on the bench. You will have a natural arc in the movement and will see nice results. Just leave the ego at the door, because a 150lb barbell bench doesn't mean you can hoist 75lb dumbbells


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## Big G (Nov 13, 2007)

And, for rotator cuff exercises, you'd recommend...?

BTW, Thx! I appreciate the explanation.


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## AKIRA (Nov 13, 2007)

Dale Mabry said:


> More chest involvement occurs with the elbows out at 90, but if you keep your elbows out at 90, you aren't typically going to be pressing much weight.  If you do it won't be for long because it puts the rotator cuff in a shitty position to do it's job.
> 
> At the end of the day, go as low as you want.  I would recommend going as low as you can.  I would attempt a lighter weight and work up from there.



Does anyone have a bird's eye view of what a lift looks like with the elbows "tucked" in?


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## Witchblade (Nov 14, 2007)

Elbows near chest/side, upper arms parallel to your body, almost or even touching the body, as opposed to flaring them out.


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