# What makes shots hurt?



## ZECH (Jun 11, 2004)

High Mg per ML Roids, What you need to know – 

1. Most hormones have a pretty low solubility in oil.
2. The primary ways to increase solubility are to
A) add solvent (BA or EA).
B) Add an ester to the hormone. The longer the ester
the more hormone will fit in the oil at a certain mg
per ml ratio. Conversely, the weight of the ester is
also factored in the total mg per ml ratio, so while
you can fit more hormone in, you are getting less
actual hormone than the mg amount implies. Here are
some examples:

Ester actual mg/100mg dose
test no ester 100
tren acetate 87
test prop 83
test enanth 72
test cyp 70
test undecan 63
nand phenyl 67
nand deca 64

This means that if your test cyp says 200 mgs per ml
you get an actual 140 mgs of test. The rest of the
weight is the weight of the ester. If that sounds like
a bad deal you need to understand that test no ester
is VERY insoluble in oil without going to very high mg
per ml solvent concentrations.

This brings up the next point; PAIN!

Why do some shots hurt? There are two primary reasons.
One, the solvent ratio is too high. Anything over
about 10% starts to hurt. BA and EA are VERY
inflammatory to the tissues. That’s why you want ONLY
enough to help your oil hold more gear but not so much
that it causes inflammation.

The second reason is that the gear crystallizes in the
depot. This is precisely why water-based suspensions
feel like hammer blows. The water is absorbed FAST,
leaving the gear to crystallize in the tissues = PAIN.
Even gear in oil can do this, here is how it works. If
you use a low ester weight attached to your gear and
make the mg per ml ratio SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the
oil will hold on it's own, what happens is the body
absorbs the solvent faster than the oil/gear and the
gear falls out of the solution and crystallizes in the
depot and WHAM, it hurts like hell. An optimum
solution has just enough solvent to get more gear into
solution than you could otherwise, but not so much
that what I just stated happens. When the ratios are
correct the gear holds in the solution UNTIL the whole
depot is absorbed and very little or no pain is felt.
Just to end this misconception once and for all IT IS
NOT THE VOLUME OF THE OIL THAT CAUSES THE PAIN, IT IS
ONE OF THE CONDITIONS STATED ABOVE. You can shoot 5
cc's of sterile oil and never know you took a shot. It
IS NOT HOW MUCH OIL YOU SHOOT! So why does everyone
search for super high mg per ml ratio gear like it's
the damn holy grail???

What is too high? Well the length of the ester is
really what determines that but most of us here know
the gear that hurts and know we know why. All tests
over 250 mgs per ml hurt, and actually most of the 250
mg tests hurt too. SOOOO many people want there tren
at 150-200 mgs per ml. Tren acetate should be at about
what?? 75 mgs per ml. That is why all the kits are
designed this way. Do you really think it's cheaper
for the kit producers to add MORE oil to their kits
instead of less? One other quick note. Oil is used
because it SLOWS absorption. THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT
YOU WANT IN A STEROID SHOT! Less oil does not promote
the steady state hormone levels achieved with more oil.

Originally posted by Doom


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## Oneiros (Oct 27, 2004)

An excelent post (just read this).

I have a relevant question: have you heard of anyone getting allergy symptoms, just after an injection? A friend of mine was nearly hospitalized after a Primo Depot injection. His doctor concluded that he might be allergic to the substance added to the walls of the amp, in order to make the oil more flow better.


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## cman (Nov 27, 2004)

I have a question concerning shots. A little off this exact topic. I thought I saw some pics here of some abses shots, but can't find them. think it was shots gone bad? not sure.


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## capinatl (Mar 9, 2005)

Good read.

If I were to add anything, it's that test certainly hurts more so than other hormones, like deca or eq - even when the deca or eq is made at 400mg/ml.


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## ZECH (Mar 10, 2005)

capinatl said:
			
		

> Good read.
> 
> If I were to add anything, it's that test certainly hurts more so than other hormones, like deca or eq - even when the deca or eq is made at 400mg/ml.


Good info. Thanks.


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## Indian Larry (Apr 14, 2005)

maybe the shots hurt because you sticking a needle in you.just a thought. 
))))`


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## ironmann9812 (Jul 2, 2005)

Good Post - All true Information


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## The Monkey Man (Jul 15, 2005)




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## Quiller (Aug 14, 2005)

Any solutions to mix it down? What about Pharma test 250? Hurts like hell. I've read about boiling and adding solutions to IP's gear....
Anyone tried it?

If I added 1ml of BA to the 10ml bottle of test 250, would that help with the test absorbtion?

Quiller


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## Roy Dee (Aug 16, 2005)

warming the gear up may help


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## Super Hulk (May 7, 2006)

my right leg hurts !

..more than my left did when i injected in it the other day


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## Trouble (May 7, 2006)

Methinks its the angle of insertion of the needle and unnessary movement of the needle during injection, if you are injecting on your non-dominant side (left side for right handers), due to the awkward positioning for the injection.

The rate of injecting a lipophilic agent into predominantly hydrophilic tissue environment is also a factor.  Heating the oil reduces the viscosity.  Slowly introducing the oil reduces local pressure rupture.  Avoiding needle shearing of tissue (rate of injection and avoiding excess lateral movement) and attaining the correct angle of needle insertion helps.


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## Mudge (May 7, 2006)

Tissue damage occurs obviously if the needle is moving around, but when using homemade gear or UG lab stuff with strange concentrations this can cause 'pain' as well.

If your leg is hurting and its entirely red and blue, it was probably the gear that caused the pain. Ask me how I know!

500mg/ml enanthate, pain free
500mg/ml EQ, pain free
400mg/ml cypionate years ago, ooooooooh shit


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## Super Hulk (May 8, 2006)

right leg is swollen from knee to about 7 inches up.
maybee i injected to much in one spot ?

i think i miscalculated how much ml test enan i put in me. i dont wanna say how much lol


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## Trouble (May 16, 2006)

*Why injections are painful: tissue type and solvents*

What happens when one injects a steroid into fat as opposed to a muscle?

I have read that it will just take much longer to get into the system. I have also read that it is very painful.ccI can't seem to find anything referencing this however.  I would have supposed that steroids would partition according to their octanol:water partition coeefficient. Good thing I'm curious.

========================================================
Uptake in vitro of lipophilic model compounds into adipose tissue preparations and lipids. Di Francesco C, Bickel MH. Biochem Pharmacol. 34(20):3683-8 (1985).

In vitro uptake of 11 lipophilic model compounds into rat epididymal adipose tissue slices, adipocytes, triglycerides, and lecithin was studied. Relative uptake at equilibrium into adipose tissue slices increased from 6 to 87% in the following sequence: phenazone, morphine less than pentobarbital less than glutethimide, phenylbutazone less than thiopental, methadone less than chlorpromazine, imipramine. In the presence of albumin a similar sequence was obtained at lower uptake levels, with DDE and 2,4,5,2',4',5'-hexachlorobiphenyl (6-CB) on top with 95% uptake. However, the time to reach equilibrium was unproportionately greater for DDE and 6-CB (16-40 hr) than for other compounds (1-4 hr).

A linear positive correlation was found between relative uptake and partition coefficient (octanol/water). Relative uptake was independent of drug concentration.

There were no significant differences between uptake values measured with adipose tissue slices, adipocytes, triolein, and a saturated short-chain triglyceride.

In contrast, uptake into lecithin was not correlated with the octanol partition coefficient. Thiopental, imipramine, and 6-CB were taken up into lean tissue slices (liver, lung, skin) in excess of their lipid content, suggesting additional binding sites.

Release from preloaded adipose tissue slices followed first order kinetics, was accelerated by albumin, and was much slower for 6-CB and DDE than for thiopental and imipramine.

The results indicate that uptake of lipophilic xenobiotics in vitro is a partition process between the aqueous medium and the triglyceride of the adipose tissue preparation. In contrast, the extent of adipose tissue storage of drugs in vivo has recently been shown not to correlate with octanol partition coefficients.
=========================================================

So what does this mean?

IF you inject into adipose, which is not the overt target for these drugs, the compound, and their carrier agents, diffuse into the tissue. This article indicates that yes indeed adipose tissue absorbs a lot of the more oily (lipophilic) compounds tested (sorted at the top of the article according to their O/W partition coefficient, which is simply the max concentration of a given compound in a two phase system, the mass in one phase - water- relative to the mass in the second, oiler phase).

The test systems included: lean tissue, fat tissue, fat cells, stored fat (cell free), and a lipid like solvent. They also used lethecin, which Josh can now tell you is simply the phospholipid membrane fraction from a crude cell lysate separation.

The authors found little difference in uptake rate - and the fact that the uptake was identical for all but the lean tissue and the phospholipids. Bottom line - triglycerides dominate the uptake process, eg, triglyceride storage vesicles in fat cells dominate the drug uptake process.

The phospholipids, normally a storage site for oily compounds in many cells, are amphipathic. Think of a ball with a couple of parallel zip zag tails. The head is charged, the fatty acid long chains are oily. In water, these spontaneously form bilayers, long rows with tails facing one another, and charged heads facing into polar water (polar means highly charged).

Got it? We got a charged layer sandwichings a oily center...the oily part is where our AAS compounds like to go. So with lethecin vesicles (which is what they used here), you have a different environment for the AAS compounds to diffuse, or filter, into during tissue absorption (what we call 'uptake' into local circulation).

The surprise was that the lean tissue stored more of the oily test compounds than expected. That means that lean tissue has a lot of oily like globular protein clusters that acted like sponges to suck up and hold the test compounds. Interesting.

Release is a different matter. Apparently once these compounds go into triglyceride vesicles, they tend to diffuse back out again at a linear rate. The kicker is the intermediate process - storage.

With storage, you got a rate that these compounds diffuse into fat and then a loading maximum mass that each vesicle can hold - the surprise was that it doesn't correlate with the O/W partition coefficients. And it means that these adipocytes (fat cells) act like sponges, absorbing and holding oily drugs for a long time.

And then the compounds leak back out a predictable rate (pretty slow, did you notice the numbers- we're talking about retention times close to the half lives for AAS.

Bottom line: you're adding an extra layer of complexity in determining exactly how much you're delivering to the target (muscle) and also smearing, spreading out by messy injection technique...which may or may not be a good thing.


Since you're using these drugs on a timed basis, it doesn't make sense to inject into fat. But now you, and one helluva lot of members in this forum and many others will know why.

This business of octanol water coeff and drug design is big business. See? Membranes, the usual suspects home (proteins in membranes) is usually what drug delivery (oral, inhaled, or transdermal routes) vehicles are designed around.

Another reason why you don't want to change the type of tissue you are using for injection.

===================================================
Recent Methodologies for the Estimation of N-Octanol/Water Partition Coefficients and their Use in the Prediction of Membrane Transport Properties of Drugs. Gilles Klopman and Hao Zhu. Mini-Reviews in Medicinal Chemistry, 5(2) :127-133 (2005).

The lipophilicity of drug molecules (represented as the logarithm of the n-octanol/water partition coefficient) often strongly correlates with their pharmacological and toxic activities. It is therefore, not surprising that there is considerable interest in developing mathematical models capable to accurately predict their value for new drug candidates.

In this review, current major approaches for estimating partition coefficients are described and some of their advantages and disadvantages are discussed. Recent uses of these partition coefficient algorithms in the development of membrane transport models are also discussed.

===================================================

The answer to your pain from injecting into fat lies in the nature of the solvent used. When the solvent is amphipathic or contains triglycerides, and the carrier is slightly polar, the probability of dissolving fat (damaging tissue) and causing release of pain inducing compounds from the damaged cells is minimized.

Like I said ealier, the vehicle is designed for use in lean tissue, not fatty tissue. The lean tissue will not dissolve, membranes will not rupture as they would in fat cells. 

The point here is these compounds are mostly built on the phenanthrene backbone of cholesterol. That means the water solubility is on the order of a couple micrograms per liter, a little higher when there are multiple polar substitutions on the rings at either end (esters). Even so, these compounds are sparingly soluble - they're trapped in triglycerides, but are so insoluble that they have an additional oily carrier to get them oncentrated for introduction into fatty acid micelles (smaller relatives of those bilayers I mentioned above).

Here's an article that illustrates my point, but in this case, the compound is very water soluble and the site of injection (fat) is not - this system makes use of the sponge like character of fat cells to slow the delivery of this drug. Again, the problem is injecting the wrong solvent type in the cell type..

=======================================================
Reducing pain during propofol injection: the role of the solvent. Doenicke AW, Roizen MF, Rau J, Kellermann W, Babl J. Anesth Analg. 1996 Mar;82(3):472-4.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...5&dopt=Abstract

=======================================================

So we got injection technique, solvent selection and injection site target tissue issues --- as well as bolus dose rate of injection - slower is better - to contend with when we wish to minimize injection site discomfort.


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## Christopher J (Jun 22, 2006)

Shots hurt??? With the right size needle you shouldnt feel a thing. And other sized needles its just a little poke.


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## Ironhorse (Jun 26, 2006)

Oneiros said:
			
		

> An excelent post (just read this).
> 
> I have a relevant question: have you heard of anyone getting allergy symptoms, just after an injection? A friend of mine was nearly hospitalized after a Primo Depot injection. His doctor concluded that he might be allergic to the substance added to the walls of the amp, in order to make the oil more flow better.


 I personally water, actually oil down, my test cyp from 250 to 125.  No pain but lots of shots.  I'm doing some that is in hiracus (sp) oil.  I looked it up to see what kind of oil I should mix with it and low and behold hiracus oil is PEANUT oil.  A lot of people are alergict to nuts, I would take a good shot in the dark your friend is sensitive, if not alergic to nuts and therefore peanut oil.  Just a guess though.


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## basskiller (Sep 6, 2010)

may i add while cypionate is similar is size to the enanthate ester.. the two are very much different as far as being stable in solution. It's the hardest "long estered" steroids to keep in solution  at any higher than 200mgs/ml


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## World-Pharma.org (Aug 17, 2011)

ZECH said:


> High Mg per ML Roids, What you need to know ???
> 
> 1. Most hormones have a pretty low solubility in oil.
> 2. The primary ways to increase solubility are to
> ...





Fantastic post.


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## ambiti (Aug 17, 2011)

needles hurt!


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## hooper (Dec 2, 2011)

ZECH said:


> High Mg per ML Roids, What you need to know ???
> 
> 1. Most hormones have a pretty low solubility in oil.
> 2. The primary ways to increase solubility are to
> ...




The larger the crystals the more it hurts , also large  crystals take a bit longer to breakdown through the system!


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## hooper (Dec 2, 2011)

capinatl said:


> Good read.
> 
> If I were to add anything, it's that test certainly hurts more so than other hormones, like deca or eq - even when the deca or eq is made at 400mg/ml.




EQ it shouldn't  hurt nor Deca . Prop and water base test do , but your syp and  Enathate not supposed to hurt!


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## LightBearer (Dec 3, 2011)

awesome post,   hey what do you think the highest concentration for NPP should be per ML,i was wanting 200 but it sounds painful, and i always thought the more oil you shoot then more pain, but looks like im wrong


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## inkd (Dec 20, 2011)

I love this site-great posts, wealth of knowledge-thanks to all


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## aminoman74 (Dec 20, 2011)

Either its the Ester or what its suspended in.


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## Big Pimpin (Dec 20, 2011)

It could just be shitty Raws gears.


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