# Thou Shall Cut on Gear and Bulk off Cycle



## BigBlackGuy (Jul 5, 2011)

Thou Shall Cut on Gear and Bulk off Cycle | Primordial Performance Blog

I'm sure this is of differing opinions with 80% of the people on this board, would love to hear some feedback on why this is right or wrong.

Personally, I like the idea of priming before a cycle, then bulking on cycle.


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## BigBlackGuy (Jul 14, 2011)

Bump, looking for replies on cutting on cycle or indirectly by commenting on the article.  Thanks guys.


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## GreatWhiteTruth (Jul 14, 2011)

It contests some common schools of thought, but it makes sense. While PCT-ing you need to keep the calories high, we know this. If you were on any sort of aromatizing compound you will probably put on some fluff or maybe even rebound. And if you don't mind the typical bulking "fluff" anyway then why not bulk off cycle? A protocol like this article suggests, would theoretically and imo help combat the catabolism of PCT. To cut at the end of a cycle or during PCT is counter productive.


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## RAWS n More (Jul 14, 2011)

Do not get out of shape in the off season. Try to stay in decent shape no matter what time of year it is. Learn that you can grow into a show,you dont have to pack on alot of garbage in "offseason", then cut for the show. And again,if you are taking high doses of aas, you are wasting your time without GH. Throw Gh in the mix and watch the transformation!! i have seen it time and again folks.


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## GMO (Jul 15, 2011)

AAS allow for a dramatic increase in muscle size without the burden of adding bodyfat. Whether bulking or cutting, I prefer to be on some type of anabolic hormone.  When not on AAS, I am usually in a maintenance phase between cycles to allow my body to readjust to its new "norm".  As stated in the article however, it is all about one's diet and whether on AAS or not...a clean diet makes all the difference.  I always strive to keep my BF% at 10% or below, and I am able to do this even when bulking because of the way I eat.


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## Mr.BIG (Jul 15, 2011)

GMO said:


> AAS allow for a dramatic increase in muscle size without the burden of adding bodyfat. Whether bulking or cutting, I prefer to be on some type of anabolic hormone. When not on AAS, I am usually in a maintenance phase between cycles to allow my body to readjust to its new "norm". As stated in the article however, it is all about one's diet and whether on AAS or not...a clean diet makes all the difference. I always strive to keep my BF% at 10% or below, and I am able to do this even when bulking because of the way I eat.


 
Well said!


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## TurnNburn1x (Jul 15, 2011)

RAWS n More said:


> Do not get out of shape in the off season. Try to stay in decent shape no matter what time of year it is. Learn that you can grow into a show,you dont have to pack on alot of garbage in "offseason", then cut for the show. And again,if you are taking high doses of aas, you are wasting your time without GH. Throw Gh in the mix and watch the transformation!! i have seen it time and again folks.


 Thanks for the info, you just confirmed what I've suspected.  I've yet to get the HGh, but plan on introducing it into my budget by the end of the year.


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## BIGBEN2011 (Jul 15, 2011)

i really want to try to add some hgh,igf etc stuff into my cycle  just dont know enough about them why does nobody here talk much about them.


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## ryansm (Jul 15, 2011)

GMO said:


> a clean diet makes all the difference



Agreed, some confuse "bulking" in terms of eating all the crap you want


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## BigBlackGuy (Jul 15, 2011)

BIGBEN2011 said:


> i really want to try to add some hgh,igf etc stuff into my cycle  just dont know enough about them why does nobody here talk much about them.



Check out Dat's forum, great info on the ghrh peptides.  That's what I'm using in my next cycle, if all goes according to plan.


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## HereToStudy (Jul 15, 2011)

GMO said:


> AAS allow for a dramatic increase in muscle size without the burden of adding bodyfat. Whether bulking or cutting, I prefer to be on some type of anabolic hormone.  When not on AAS, I am usually in a maintenance phase between cycles to allow my body to readjust to its new "norm".  As stated in the article however, it is all about one's diet and whether on AAS or not...a clean diet makes all the difference.  I always strive to keep my BF% at 10% or below, and I am able to do this even when bulking because of the way I eat.



Well stated.


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## BigBlackGuy (Jul 16, 2011)

GMO said:


> AAS allow for a dramatic increase in muscle size without the burden of adding bodyfat. Whether bulking or cutting, I prefer to be on some type of anabolic hormone.  When not on AAS, I am usually in a maintenance phase between cycles to allow my body to readjust to its new "norm".  As stated in the article however, it is all about one's diet and whether on AAS or not...a clean diet makes all the difference.  I always strive to keep my BF% at 10% or below, and I am able to do this even when bulking because of the way I eat.



I'm striving now to maintain a lower bodyfat as you said.  I'm not really looking to bulk up again, just get big enough to where I can maintain bodyfat or even lose some.


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## BigBlackGuy (Jul 19, 2011)

Just got done a convo with a good friend of mine who is very researched in... ahem, chemical enhancement...

He said that the test bloat would probably keep me from seeing very low bodyfat %.  I would be using an AI of course to minimize bloat, not to mention watch my DIET of course.  So what do you guys think?  Would the bloat keep me from reaching the desired low BF?


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## GreatWhiteTruth (Jul 19, 2011)

BigBlackGuy said:


> Just got done a convo with a good friend of mine who is very researched in... ahem, chemical enhancement...
> 
> He said that the test bloat would probably keep me from seeing very low bodyfat %.  I would be using an AI of course to minimize bloat, not to mention watch my DIET of course.  So what do you guys think?  Would the bloat keep me from reaching the desired low BF?



Not necessarily. I think it depends on how your own body responds to E2, and everyone is different. Does it make things more difficult? Of course. It just means that your diet must be that much more in-tune. Test is the most versatile of the AAS's, whether you are bulking or cutting. I find that 1mg a-dex ED helps keep the test-fluff under control for me. Intense cardio helps alot too. Like I said, I seem to be sensitive to E2 and the A-dex definitely helps. You just can't get upset if the gains aren't as "explosive" as you might like. But hey, if you're cutting it shouldn't bother you. 

Throwing in gH might make an excellent addition due to its direct influence on lipolysis, anti-catabolic nature and increased recovery. For me it's speculation though because I have no experience with the stuff.


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## HereToStudy (Jul 19, 2011)

Seems guys have successfully used AndroHard to keep bloat at bay. Out of all our products, it might be the one of most use to someone who is doing test cycles (as DHT itself is not available).


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## BigBlackGuy (Jul 20, 2011)

HereToStudy said:


> Seems guys have successfully used AndroHard to keep bloat at bay. Out of all our products, it might be the one of most use to someone who is doing test cycles (as DHT itself is not available).



Agreed, I'm keeping letro on hand of course.  Someone running only Androhard just got bloodwork done, he has less than 20 pg/ml e2.



> Not necessarily. I think it depends on how your own body responds to E2, and everyone is different. Does it make things more difficult? Of course. It just means that your diet must be that much more in-tune. Test is the most versatile of the AAS's, whether you are bulking or cutting. I find that 1mg a-dex ED helps keep the test-fluff under control for me. Intense cardio helps alot too. Like I said, I seem to be sensitive to E2 and the A-dex definitely helps. You just can't get upset if the gains aren't as "explosive" as you might like. But hey, if you're cutting it shouldn't bother you.
> 
> Throwing in gH might make an excellent addition due to its direct influence on lipolysis, anti-catabolic nature and increased recovery. For me it's speculation though because I have no experience with the stuff.



True true.  I'll be using a pretty  low carb diet as well.  Not too low, as I know I need a bit more carbs for the AAS.  But low enough, shouldn't be "fluffy" at all lol

And yes, the GH will help a ton I'm betting on.


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## ryansm (Jul 20, 2011)

BigBlackGuy said:


> Agreed, I'm keeping letro on hand of course.  Someone running only Androhard just got bloodwork done, he has less than 20 pg/ml e2.



Wow didn't see that, nice


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## Mudge (Jul 20, 2011)

1) You can't bulk that much off cycle.
2) Otherwise, great idea.


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## Mudge (Jul 20, 2011)

BigBlackGuy said:


> Would the bloat keep me from reaching the desired low BF?



Bloat refers to water retention, not being a fatty.


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## HereToStudy (Jul 20, 2011)

BigBlackGuy said:


> Agreed, I'm keeping letro on hand of course.  Someone running only Androhard just got bloodwork done, he has less than 20 pg/ml e2.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wait, do you actually have growth h, or was that just a shift in discussion?


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## BigBlackGuy (Jul 21, 2011)

Mudge said:


> Bloat refers to water retention, not being a fatty.



Right, that's why I was confused.

Study, no I don't have GH, I'm going to be using Ipam/Mod-GRF.


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## HereToStudy (Jul 21, 2011)

BigBlackGuy said:


> Right, that's why I was confused.
> 
> Study, no I don't have GH, I'm going to be using Ipam/Mod-GRF.



Nice. I have been doing GHRP2/Mod in the AM and Ipam/Mod at night and have been enjoying it.


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## GMO (Jul 22, 2011)

BigBlackGuy said:


> Just got done a convo with a good friend of mine who is very researched in... ahem, chemical enhancement...
> 
> He said that the test bloat would probably keep me from seeing very low bodyfat %. I would be using an AI of course to minimize bloat, not to mention watch my DIET of course. So what do you guys think? Would the bloat keep me from reaching the desired low BF?


 

Ai's will keep you pretty dry, but your diet also has to be on point to minimize bloat.  Estrogen is only one of the causes of water retention.  Sodium in your diet, insufficient H2O consumption and lack of cardio can all cause your body to hold on to some water.  And even when I have everything dialed in, I still see some reduction of water retention after my test clears during PCT.  Your goal on cycle should be what you want to look like AFTER your PCT, not during your cycle.


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## Glycomann (Jul 22, 2011)

The rebound thing works but you can quickly become fat.  Plus in reality after the rebound most of us are stuck with a compromised endocrine system for months.  So, the gains fostered under the metabolic conditions presented by insulin sensitivity diminish as that sensitivity wanes and sex steroid and IGF systems are compromised.

Probably the best was I've found to continue piling on the lean gains with my crap genetics is to do 8 week cycles with 4 weeks off in between. Alternate bulk and cut as necessary.


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## malfeasance (Jul 22, 2011)

Glycomann said:


> 8 week cycles with 4 weeks off in between. Alternate bulk and cut as necessary.


 That is not even enough time to do PCT, much less recover.


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## BigBlackGuy (Jul 22, 2011)

I may have to look at running lower dosed test (200-350mg per week) and running a drier compound alongside it.  Thanks for the help guys.


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## Glycomann (Jul 22, 2011)

malfeasance said:


> That is not even enough time to do PCT, much less recover.



That's right.  I'm 50 and on TRT. Plus you want effective?  That's effective. No yoyoing.  No recovery.  Just growth. You want real recovery then take 6 months off between cycles. Less than that and most people are fooling themselves.


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## carmineb (Jul 22, 2011)

BigBlackGuy said:


> Thou Shall Cut on Gear and Bulk off Cycle | Primordial Performance Blog
> 
> I'm sure this is of differing opinions with 80% of the people on this board, would love to hear some feedback on why this is right or wrong.
> 
> Personally, I like the idea of priming before a cycle, then bulking on cycle.


 

that is not news    didnt the old timers, Arnold and the rest use gear while cuting  to help maintain what they had earned the rest of the year? 

But I love Mat Porters article on this.  thanks for sharing


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## BigBlackGuy (Jul 22, 2011)

Glycomann said:


> That's right.  I'm 50 and on TRT. Plus you want effective?  That's effective. No yoyoing.  No recovery.  Just growth. *You want real recovery then take 6 months off between cycles. Less than that and most people are fooling themselves.*



Agreed.  It's tough man... even a perfect PCT might not bring someone back.


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## ryansm (Jul 23, 2011)

GMO said:


> Ai's will keep you pretty dry, but your diet also has to be on point to minimize bloat.  Estrogen is only one of the causes of water retention.  Sodium in your diet, insufficient H2O consumption and lack of cardio can all cause your body to hold on to some water.  And even when I have everything dialed in, I still see some reduction of water retention after my test clears during PCT.  Your goal on cycle should be what you want to look like AFTER your PCT, not during your cycle.



I think people undervalue the importance of proper hydration, and it really is important when cycling


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## HereToStudy (Jul 24, 2011)

Glycomann said:


> That's right.  I'm 50 and on TRT. Plus you want effective?  *That's effective. No yoyoing.  No recovery.  Just growth.* You want real recovery then take 6 months off between cycles. Less than that and most people are fooling themselves.



I envy you TRT guys!


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## BigBlackGuy (Jul 25, 2011)

HereToStudy said:


> I envy you TRT guys!



It definitely takes out variables, but it must suck to have to pin every week.  What if you forget or something happens where you can't?


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## rayb (Jul 25, 2011)

Good thread!


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## ryansm (Jul 25, 2011)

BigBlackGuy said:


> It definitely takes out variables, but it must suck to have to pin every week.  What if you forget or something happens where you can't?



Plan ahead


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## BigBlackGuy (Jul 26, 2011)

ryansm said:


> Plan ahead



lol not everything can be planned for!


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## HereToStudy (Jul 28, 2011)

BigBlackGuy said:


> lol not everything can be planned for!



True, but I assume like any medication, you eventually get this in line.

Obviously I think this article is more geared towards guys cycling off as opposed to TRT guys.


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## ryansm (Jul 30, 2011)

BigBlackGuy said:


> lol not everything can be planned for!



It becomes a smoother process so time isn't as much of an issue


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## Halo (Jul 30, 2011)

I like the idea and have been keeping my calories high during my off cycle this time and I'm building more this off cycle then ever before.  I'm looking forward to coming into my next cycle in a different way then in the past, we'll see how it works out.

Thanks for posting!


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## HereToStudy (Jul 31, 2011)

Halo said:


> I like the idea and have been keeping my calories high during my off cycle this time and I'm building more this off cycle then ever before.  I'm looking forward to coming into my next cycle in a different way then in the past, we'll see how it works out.
> 
> Thanks for posting!



Its always good to approach cycles in different manners until you learn what works best for you.


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## Glycomann (Jul 31, 2011)

BigBlackGuy said:


> lol not everything can be planned for!



No big deal.  If you miss a week or so it's not going to kill you.  AS far as I know nobody has died from being a little hypogonadal for a few weeks or months.. or any length of time really. BTW I am now off TRT for 3 months and my test snapped back to mid 500s in 11 weeks so I guess I was never really hypo.


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## ryansm (Aug 1, 2011)

Glycomann said:


> No big deal.  If you miss a week or so it's not going to kill you.  AS far as I know nobody has died from being a little hypogonadal for a few weeks or months.. or any length of time really. BTW I am now off TRT for 3 months and my test snapped back to mid 500s in 11 weeks so I guess I was never really hypo.



What protocol did you use coming off TRT?


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## MattPorter (Jan 16, 2012)

Never knew about this thread lol

Anyways -- I write these pieces to get people thinking and not always go by what "the forum laws" have taught everyone throughout the years,,,,,

Tons of different ways to skin the cat here --- as for this particular piece I wrote it due to my experience with pre-contest dieting.

Getting Very VERY lean while assisted --- then once the show is over --- hit PCT, add in all available ancillaries, peptides, you name it --- eat a CLEAN surplus of calories-----> which is so KEY at this time because you SHOULD be ravenously starving from the EXTREME dieting....

that CLEAN food in copious amounts is actually TASTY and not a drag.... that ignites some serious glycogen synthesis via--insulin signaling, while dropping cortisol low and allowing your muscles to fill up....

Here is the catch --- your "grace period" will inevitably run out. Everyones grace period if different.

Gosh -- back in the day mine was awesome. I could literally eat JUNK not even clean food post contest --PCT and grow LEAN for about 6 weeks before fat cells filled up substantially.

Normal human may have 4 weeks, and longer if you eat CLEAN!!!

Then you damn sure better jump BACK ON CYCLE!!! because homeostasis will get the best of you and blubber will surface!

-Matt


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## HereToStudy (Jan 16, 2012)

We like to post your articles around the new Matt, very good information!


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## HereToStudy (Jun 15, 2012)

Bumping this article. I think it is a must-read for many.


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## banker23 (Jun 16, 2012)

MattPorter said:


> Normal human may have 4 weeks, ...-Matt



Normal human folks (not Matt Porter for sure). Seriously though, Matt's a great source of advice and information.


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## banker23 (Jun 16, 2012)

ryansm said:


> What protocol did you use coming off TRT?



I also am curious...


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## GreatWhiteTruth (Jun 16, 2012)

Good article to revisit.


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## HereToStudy (Jun 17, 2012)

banker23 said:


> Normal human folks (not Matt Porter for sure)


This made me laugh.


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## Standard Donkey (Jun 17, 2012)

what about cut on gear, bulk on more gear?


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## HereToStudy (Jun 19, 2012)

Standard Donkey said:


> what about cut on gear, bulk on more gear?



Acceptable as well, haha.


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## teezhay (Jun 19, 2012)

I'm very open-minded in regards to new information about cycling, bulking, cutting, etc. I love innovative ideas that change the way we think about this sport. That said, the message loses its credibility when it's sourced from the website of a company as rife with shameless bullshit as Primordial Performance.

I know it's a mortal sin to criticize the absurdity of PP, but frankly ... I don't really care. Keep your $199 bottles of inert shit, I prefer real gear.


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## Standard Donkey (Jun 19, 2012)

teezhay said:


> I'm very open-minded in regards to new information about cycling, bulking, cutting, etc. I love innovative ideas that change the way we think about this sport. That said, the message loses its credibility when it's sourced from the website of a company as rife with shameless bullshit as Primordial Performance.
> 
> I know it's a mortal sin to criticize the absurdity of PP, but frankly ... I don't really care. Keep your $199 bottles of inert shit, I prefer real gear.


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## teezhay (Jun 19, 2012)

Standard Donkey said:


>



Yeah sorry about that.

Carry on.


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## MattPorter (Jun 21, 2012)

Why would the message lose credibility -- it has nothing to do with Pp products?

That is ridiculous.

-Matt


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## HereToStudy (Jun 21, 2012)

MattPorter said:


> Why would the message lose credibility -- it has nothing to do with Pp products?
> 
> That is ridiculous.
> 
> -Matt


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