# Q & A with Heavyiron



## GFR (Dec 18, 2009)

I have posted on Bodybuilding sites for about 5 years now and one of the few people I trust with chem advice is Heavyiron.

If you have any chem questions for him, ask away right here.


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## heavyiron (Dec 18, 2009)

Thanks FR for the kind words.


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## WFC2010 (Dec 19, 2009)

is it possible to gain 20-25lbs pure muscle in 1 year with cycles,good training and best diet ?


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## dave 236 (Dec 19, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I have posted on Bodybuilding sites for about 5 years now and one of the few people I trust with chem advice is Heavyiron.
> 
> If you have any chem questions for him, ask away right here.


I agree Heavy is the man.


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## TrashMan (Dec 19, 2009)

WFC2010 said:


> is it possible to gain 20-25lbs pure muscle in 1 year with cycles,good training and best diet ?




If your training is down, your diet is great, and you've got a lot of cash, I'm sure anything is possible.


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## Glycomann (Dec 19, 2009)

Hi Heavy.  I've seen you on MD and RxMuscle.  Good to see you here.  Are you a founder of the site here?  I'm a TRT guy so not really sure if any of my questions are fit for posting here.  I use 100-200 mg of test/w with my treatment plus 500 iu of hCG 2x a week.  I use the hCG about one month on and one month off.  i also use nolvadex or and AI periodically and never together but alternate them. I do add some compounds to my TRT periodically.  I've found that at my age 8 weeks is long enough for a little blast.  After that I feel kind of crappy at higher doses.  I like to add one of the following to my TRT during those periods: Anavar, Masteron, Durabolin, Equipoise and maybe once in a great while winstrol.  I think I recall that you are a TRT guy too. Here are my questions.

1. What compounds do you prefer to add to your TRT?
2. What doses do you run your TRT?
3. What ancillaries do you find you prefer such as
  a. AI
  b. SERMs
  c. thyroid
  d. hCG
  e. hGH
4. from your vast experience what is your favorite combination of compounds?


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## heavyiron (Dec 19, 2009)

WFC2010 said:


> is it possible to gain 20-25lbs pure muscle in 1 year with cycles,good training and best diet ?


Maybe for newer trainee's. The following is an excerpt from a clinical human trial. The data was collected after 20 weeks of administration of varying doses of Testosterone.

Body composition was measured after 20 weeks.

*Fat Free Mass by underwater weighing*
300 mg group-*5.2kg (11.4lbs)* increase
600 mg group-*7.9kg (17.38lbs)* increase
*Fat Mass by underwater weighing*
300 mg group*-.5kg (1.1lbs)* decrease
600 mg group-*1.1kg (2.42lbs)* decrease


Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men -- Bhasin et al. 281 (6): E1172 -- AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism


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## heavyiron (Dec 19, 2009)

Glycomann said:


> Hi Heavy. I've seen you on MD and RxMuscle. Good to see you here. Are you a founder of the site here? I'm a TRT guy so not really sure if any of my questions are fit for posting here. I use 100-200 mg of test/w with my treatment plus 500 iu of hCG 2x a week. I use the hCG about one month on and one month off. i also use nolvadex or and AI periodically and never together but alternate them. I do add some compounds to my TRT periodically. I've found that at my age 8 weeks is long enough for a little blast. After that I feel kind of crappy at higher doses. I like to add one of the following to my TRT during those periods: Anavar, Masteron, Durabolin, Equipoise and maybe once in a great while winstrol. I think I recall that you are a TRT guy too. Here are my questions.
> 
> 1. What compounds do you prefer to add to your TRT?
> 2. What doses do you run your TRT?
> ...


 
8-9 weeks is perfect for a blast as Myostatin stops gains around then anyway.

I was invited here this month by Robert D.

1. If my joints are hurting I will add Nandrolone. If I want some horsepower I will add more Testosterone. If I add an oral it will be D-bol. If I want body recomping I will add Tren.

2. I never go lower than 250mg weekly on T but I prefer 300mg. I have used high strength test creams but I would rather pin. I would never recommend using less than 200mg T weekly for TRT.

3. I always run HCG with my T and I like AI's to control estro. I only use SERM's like Nolva for emergency gyno treatment or Clomid for PCT. I sometimes use T3 and rarely HGH. 

4. Testosterone, HCG, Aromasin and an occasional Cialis. For older guys there is nothing like T and dialed in ancillaries. My favorite stacks are always sex drive friendly.


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## Glycomann (Dec 19, 2009)

heavyiron. said:


> 8-9 weeks is perfect for a blast as Myostatin stops gains around then anyway.
> 
> I was invited here this month by Robert D.
> 
> ...



Hi Heavy,

thanks for the reply.  I have read that about myostatin levels.  I have also read that the myostatin levels drop again after about 16 weeks or so.  That would be a long time to stay on high doses of compounds though and who knows why it goes back down.  The endocrine system is like a hundred floating ping pong balls all connected by 250 strings.  One goes up and another goes down and so on and so on until the whols system finds a happy or semi happy balance or homeostasis.  Eight weeks or so seems to be where most guys top out or near top out from a cycle so if we are on TRT there is really no reason to keep going when we can just drop to normal TRT dose and feel decent, retain a good deal of conditioning and recover from any stress from the past 8 weeks.


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## WFC2010 (Dec 19, 2009)

thanks,will try it


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## Glycomann (Dec 19, 2009)

Don't know what happened but I replied earlier.  Yeah Heavy, I read about myostatin increase after 8 weeks or so but also that it drops back down 8 or so weeks later.  But I take your point about 8 week blasts.


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## heavyiron (Dec 19, 2009)

Glycomann said:


> Hi Heavy,
> 
> thanks for the reply. I have read that about myostatin levels. I have also read that the myostatin levels drop again after about 16 weeks or so. That would be a long time to stay on high doses of compounds though and who knows why it goes back down. The endocrine system is like a hundred floating ping pong balls all connected by 250 strings. One goes up and another goes down and so on and so on until the whols system finds a happy or semi happy balance or homeostasis. Eight weeks or so seems to be where most guys top out or near top out from a cycle so if we are on TRT there is really no reason to keep going when we can just drop to normal TRT dose and feel decent, retain a good deal of conditioning and recover from any stress from the past 8 weeks.


I think they measured myostatin at week 20 and it was baseline.


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## ersin.konuk (Dec 20, 2009)

How Do U Cycle Nolvadex How Much And When For How Long


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## ersin.konuk (Dec 20, 2009)

Any Body Tell Me How To Cycle Nolvadex How Much And When For How Long


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## heavyiron (Dec 20, 2009)

Nolvadex is best for emergency gyno treatment but I personally would not use it for anything else.

What are your goals?


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## ersin.konuk (Dec 20, 2009)

here is the deal i am on my 3rd week of sus250 1cc every 7 days my strenth and my size have both gone up alot but my nipples are getting just a little sore sometimes i am courios is this dangeres  or is it normal. if not how sould i take care of it?


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## heavyiron (Dec 20, 2009)

ersin.konuk said:


> here is the deal i am on my 3rd week of sus250 1cc every 7 days my strenth and my size have both gone up alot but my nipples are getting just a little sore sometimes i am courios is this dangeres or is it normal. if not how sould i take care of it?


You need to get on Nolvadex now at 20mg daily and I would also run an AI like Aromasin in all future cycles.


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## ersin.konuk (Dec 20, 2009)

can i still stay on my cycle with the nolvadex or should i stop ?


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## heavyiron (Dec 20, 2009)

ersin.konuk said:


> can i still stay on my cycle with the nolvadex or should i stop ?


As long as you start Nolvadex you may still use the Testosterone.


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## ersin.konuk (Dec 20, 2009)

thank you for all your help heavy iron  you guys have a merry christmas


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## TrashMan (Dec 20, 2009)

ersin.konuk said:


> thank you for all your help heavy iron  you guys have a merry christmas


 
HeavyIron's a Jew...


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## CG (Dec 20, 2009)

Hmm. I've always had a bit of gyno since I was a kid. A few dr's said deal with it... Another dude on this board treated himself with adex (I think) and had decent success. I know I need to drop some bf now, but for reference, any suggestions on treating naturally occurring/genetic gyno? Thanks in advance, and welcome to IM.. Seems you've really helped out the community a lot already!


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## heavyiron (Dec 21, 2009)

Cgrant said:


> Hmm. I've always had a bit of gyno since I was a kid. A few dr's said deal with it... Another dude on this board treated himself with adex (I think) and had decent success. I know I need to drop some bf now, but for reference, any suggestions on treating naturally occurring/genetic gyno? Thanks in advance, and welcome to IM.. Seems you've really helped out the community a lot already!


If you do in fact have gyno the only treatment is surgery to remove the gland however you may use Nolvadex to block the action of estrogen in breast tissue so that you do not cause a further increase in size of the gland.

AI's like Arimidex lower circulating estro so they can also be used to protect against further growth of the gland as well. If you plan to run cycles of aromatizing compounds I would suggest Aromasin for estro control as it is a little stronger than adex.


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## CG (Dec 21, 2009)

Gotcha... Thanks for the help.. It appears that I'll lose the bf naturally, find a doctor that doesn't blow, and go on from theree... Thanks again man, repped


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## heavyiron (Dec 21, 2009)

Cgrant said:


> Gotcha... Thanks for the help.. It appears that I'll lose the bf naturally, find a doctor that doesn't blow, and go on from theree... Thanks again man, repped


You may try letro to see if the gyno reduces but if its been around a while I think the chances are slim it will work.


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## Supermans Daddy (Dec 23, 2009)

First,thanks for take'n the time kick it on some really cool information based on knowledge and experience. That's a hella combo . Much Respect to you Homey.My question is this.............

For a Female who wished to increase size who already had several successful years of experience with Avavar and Primo compounds and is at 8 % BF at most. At this point her 4 to 6 weeks runs are 20mg Anavar ED and 100mg Primo Weekly. Lets also say she had access to whatever she needed to have whatever compounds made at whatever mg. injects or orals. What compounds at what mg would you suggest as a safe option to her current protocol ? Thanx a gang 

Peace and Love


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## Built (Dec 23, 2009)

Mikhal, what sides has she noticed so far?

Also, you sure about that 8%? Because an assisted female COMPETES at 8%. I'm 14% in my avatar and I had veins in my lats - but I wasn't ready to compete; I would have still been too fat for stage. When I bulk I try to stay at or just over 20%. If she's at 8% it won't matter what she runs, she won't gain. Not unless she eats.


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## weldingman (Dec 23, 2009)

Heavy do you think trenbolone acetate is getting scares?


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## TrashMan (Dec 24, 2009)

weldingman said:


> Heavy do you think trenbolone acetate is getting scares?



I'm not afraid of it. It's certainly not afraid of me.


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## Supermans Daddy (Dec 24, 2009)

Built said:


> Mikhal, what sides has she noticed so far?
> 
> Also, you sure about that 8%? Because an assisted female COMPETES at 8%. I'm 14% in my avatar and I had veins in my lats - but I wasn't ready to compete; I would have still been too fat for stage. When I bulk I try to stay at or just over 20%. If she's at 8% it won't matter what she runs, she won't gain. Not unless she eats.



Shes at around 12% BF, so yes  shes gotta a lil more BF/water than I thought, but she's cut up like a bag of dope . LOLOL She's always been REALLY small and started lift'n 9 years ago at 93 lbs 5" 6"  now she's a rock solid 118  and goe's up to as much as 127. she'd like to get to some where near 135/140. Believe me cause I know she eats like a viking so diet is not it. She has had NO sides from Anavar or Primo other than a raspy vioce for a couple of weeks at the doses listed. She did try Decca once at a very low dose 50 mg weekly ( but I'm not sure) like , I remember her complain'n of feel'n weird, I also remember taken her to get a treatment to remove bout 5 facial hairs LOL . So the hair growth would be the only sides shes had. Got any suggestions?


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## heavyiron (Dec 24, 2009)

Mikhal said:


> First,thanks for take'n the time kick it on some really cool information based on knowledge and experience. That's a hella combo . Much Respect to you Homey.My question is this.............
> 
> For a Female who wished to increase size who already had several successful years of experience with Avavar and Primo compounds and is at 8 % BF at most. At this point her 4 to 6 weeks runs are 20mg Anavar ED and 100mg Primo Weekly. Lets also say she had access to whatever she needed to have whatever compounds made at whatever mg. injects or orals. What compounds at what mg would you suggest as a safe option to her current protocol ? Thanx a gang
> 
> Peace and Love


 
Safe is the key word. You need to define that for us. She is pushing the threshold right now. If she adds more compounds or ups the dose she will risk masculinization like deepening of the voice, facial hair etc. So it really depends on her risk tolerance.

What does safe mean to you?


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## heavyiron (Dec 24, 2009)

weldingman said:


> Heavy do you think trenbolone acetate is getting scares?


It is a pretty harsh but very effective compound. I have tried to run it many times and man does it affect me strongly.


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## Supermans Daddy (Dec 26, 2009)

heavyiron. said:


> Safe is the key word. You need to define that for us. She is pushing the threshold right now. If she adds more compounds or ups the dose she will risk masculinization like deepening of the voice, facial hair etc. So it really depends on her risk tolerance.
> 
> What does safe mean to you?



I understand what you're say'n, safe is the most important factor. I guess what I'm say'n is what would you consider a large dose for a female of Anavar and Primo, and with the almost no sides shes had what other compounds do you know of that woman tend to have success with.


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## Built (Dec 26, 2009)

Mikhal, if she's not gaining, it's her diet. She's 12% bodyfat. That's her problem. She needs to eat - AAS will not do that for her. While she's bulking she should make good gains as long as she stays under or just over 20%. Leaner than this and she just needs more calories. 

Think about it: zero virilization.


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## heavyiron (Dec 26, 2009)

Mikhal said:


> I understand what you're say'n, safe is the most important factor. I guess what I'm say'n is what would you consider a large dose for a female of Anavar and Primo, and with the almost no sides shes had what other compounds do you know of that woman tend to have success with.


20mg daily on var is pushing it. I think it is about as high as she should go. I have seen problems at the 25mg dose so I would not use more.

Winny is* usually* ok at 10mg daily. Test around 30mg weekly, Tren around the same. None of these should be stacked and results will vary.


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## Supermans Daddy (Jan 29, 2010)

Hey Big Homey, I need your insight and wisdom on cycle discussed with a friend.

His understanding/experience of AAS is pretty tight, but still I wanted shoot it past you and see if you give a green flag.


what is being planned is 10 or 12 weeks. Purpose is to aid some size but more concerned with quality lean solid quality muscle gain and while cutt'n up  (Your opinion on length would be a valuable tip as well)

Either Parabolan or Tren En for 8 weeks ,300 or 400mg weekly

Test Cyp for Frontload 400mg ,200mg week 2

Test Prop weeks 3 thru finish ,400mg weekly

EQ week 1 thru 6 , 400mg weekly

Primobolan week 7 thru finish 400mg weekly

Week 8 thru finish , Either Tren A 300mg or Masteron 400mg

Tbol week 1 thru 7 ,50mg ED

Winny week 6 thru finish , 50mg ED

I know it seems like a lot of compounds but they are used in doses that are pretty sensible for a guy  experienced with compounds. I'm sure you are aware of the theory behind the change in compounds during cycle for health as well as effectiveness of esters and the difference each compound offers. Does the logic in this cycle seem sound to you ? 

Thanks

Peace and Love


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## heavyiron (Jan 29, 2010)

Mikhal said:


> Hey Big Homey, I need your insight and wisdom on cycle discussed with a friend.
> 
> His understanding/experience of AAS is pretty tight, but still I wanted shoot it past you and see if you give a green flag.
> 
> ...


Seems weird to me. Why frontload cyp if you have prop to kick start the course? Changing compounds does not increase effectiveness unless you are adding stronger ones. He only needs Test and Tren to meet his goals.


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## weldingman (Jan 29, 2010)

Test and tren will do it all, thats one hell of a $ on that cycle. Prop kicks it all off so does tren ace, short then move to long esters.


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## KoRuPTiOn (Jan 29, 2010)

Hello heavyiron.... I am new to this forum and i am about to go into my fourth cycle. I really need some advice this time because i wanna go big. I purchased some gears i probably should have asked for advice Before doing so but regardless heres what i got. 

First off my first cycle was just minimal only 500mg test e  a week for 12 weeks didnt have any need for any pct.

Second cycle i used the 500mg test 200mg deca 2x week and test prop 100mg eod for the first 4 weeks... this was a 15 week cycle with tapering the test out after 12 and running the deca to the end. Again i did not use any pct i did have clen and nolva but found i did not need them. 

I repeated the above cycle for my third only bumping the test to 750 and the deca to 600
and again i had no gyno issues.

Now that i have that out of the way, I am 6'8" 274 lbs and im still at about 22-24 percent body fat possibly higher at the moment. that im not concerned with what i want at the moment is big gains. Its been about 8 months since my last cycle im ready to go.

what i have is 
10 grms  Test Deconate powder..  

 5 grams of Drostanolone propionate powder  

10 grams of Methandienone powder

I also have approx 60ml's of tren homebrew from fina pellets at 200mg/ml
and 2grams left in pellet form

I also have 30ml's of 300mg/ml homebrew Deca which i dont know if
its worth using since its not enough for a cycle in my opinion.

What im looking for is basically in what ratio's you think i should do these gears how often what mg's a week etc...

PS i just turned 39 im not a young kid,and i do have the nolva and clen just inm case

Would appreciate any help you can give. This will probably be my last run at this i want to go big as i can..  at least 15-20 lbs of gains. Thank you!!


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## heavyiron (Jan 30, 2010)

1 gram Test weekly for 10 weeks
50 mg Methandienone daily weeks 1-4 & 7-12
450mg Deca weekly for weeks 1-7
400mg Tren Ace weeks 8-12

Aromasin 10 mg eod-this will reduce female pattern fat deposits. You are fat because of a bad diet and too much estrogen.

The Nandrolone will soothe your joints for heavy lifting so definately use it and then switch over to the tren to keep gains rolling.

Do a proper PCT so you don't get fatter and lose LBM.


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## martialartsman (Jan 30, 2010)

I have a question that i hope you can help with but will understand if  you cant. I suffer with agrophobia so train at home and never have the chance to meet people to ask the questions i want to ask. I rely on the internet and this board as some others for all advice and help. I have had the unfortunate problem of being scammed a few times but someone has been kind enough to point me in what he says is reliable, how would i check this info out without offending anyone or being banned, i live in the uk and would be greatful if you could help. Im sorry if this cant be done and i respect what ever answer you give. Thanks again.


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## Supermans Daddy (Jan 30, 2010)

heavyiron. said:


> Seems weird to me. Why frontload cyp if you have prop to kick start the course? Changing compounds does not increase effectiveness unless you are adding stronger ones. He only needs Test and Tren to meet his goals.



Thanks a gang for taking the time to answer, BUT you know me of course I got one more question ! lol

Does this make a bit more sense

Length 8 weeks

Compounds

Parabolan 400mgs wk
Test prop 400mg wk
Tbol        50mg ED

 Closer to the REAL WORLD ? lol

Hey, is it possible to replace the prop with cyp ( No profound logic, just cus it would reduce amount of injects lol) and still cut with this cycle if diet is squeaky clean. ? BTW That was the reason for the frontload with cyp question to reduce some injects. My friend has a lot of scare tissue on his delts , quads, gluts. The fellas do maybe 3 8wk runs a year , and they been at it for at least 12 years . I imagine that's long enough to get scare tissue anywhere .lol They are healthy and look fantastic though. Just look'n for some options. Everybody wants to look like Tony Freeman round this way.lol


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## heavyiron (Jan 30, 2010)

martialartsman said:


> I have a question that i hope you can help with but will understand if you cant. I suffer with agrophobia so train at home and never have the chance to meet people to ask the questions i want to ask. I rely on the internet and this board as some others for all advice and help. I have had the unfortunate problem of being scammed a few times but someone has been kind enough to point me in what he says is reliable, how would i check this info out without offending anyone or being banned, i live in the uk and would be greatful if you could help. Im sorry if this cant be done and i respect what ever answer you give. Thanks again.


No idea, sorry


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## heavyiron (Jan 30, 2010)

Mikhal said:


> Thanks a gang for taking the time to answer, BUT you know me of course I got one more question ! lol
> 
> Does this make a bit more sense
> 
> ...


I personally prefer Cypionate and you could definately use it instead of prop but cyp is about 15% less hormone than prop so you need to adjust the dose up on the cyp. Additionally I would increase the cyp dose even more to get some good horsepower and keep libido.

Frontloading heavy esters does not increase gains much over not frontloading because regardless of blood androgen levels muscle takes time to build. You MIGHT get gains a week sooner frontloading if you are lucky. Here is what I would do;

Test 600mg weekly
Para 400mg weekly
T-bol 50mg daily MINIMUM.


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## Supermans Daddy (Jan 30, 2010)

heavyiron. said:


> I personally prefer Cypionate and you could definately use it instead of prop but cyp is about 15% less hormone than prop so you need to adjust the dose up on the cyp. Additionally I would increase the cyp dose even more to get some good horsepower and keep libido.
> 
> Frontloading heavy esters does not increase gains much over not frontloading because regardless of blood androgen levels muscle takes time to build. You MIGHT get gains a week sooner frontloading if you are lucky. Here is what I would do;
> 
> ...



Bro ,I swear to GOD I'm not not try'n to be a pest, but DAMN you got the good's big Homey when it comes to this game. So I gotta hit you up one more time. lol ( must seem like I'm borrow'n money and shit lol)

 I keep see'n 50mgs minimum.. which may be a waste of time and product. None of us have any experience other what we've read. Pirate ( whom I've known and trusted his opinion for 7 yrs said the same 50mg mimimum. In your opinion what's the dose of Tbol You'd' recomend.Whats middle ? 75mg, 100mg ? And finally how long is it safe to be on Tbol at a larger dose with liver, and kidney supps added . The cyp issue, the water retention won't be a problem at that dose you think ?  No biggie though this is cardio hell. Sorry again Bro, not ashamed to say I just don't know, so I ask with the willingness to learn. I hope you can feel me on that.

You been way too cool bout this Big Homey. lol Ima leave you be awhile now.

Peace and love

PS
 The check is in the mail ! LOL


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## heavyiron (Jan 30, 2010)

Mikhal said:


> Bro ,I swear to GOD I'm not not try'n to be a pest, but DAMN you got the good's big Homey when it comes to this game. So I gotta hit you up one more time. lol ( must seem like I'm borrow'n money and shit lol)
> 
> I keep see'n 50mgs minimum.. which may be a waste of time and product. None of us have any experience other what we've read. Pirate ( whom I've known and trusted his opinion for 7 yrs said the same 50mg mimimum. In your opinion what's the dose of Tbol You'd' recomend.Whats middle ? 75mg, 100mg ? And finally how long is it safe to be on Tbol at a larger dose with liver, and kidney supps added . The cyp issue, the water retention won't be a problem at that dose you think ? No biggie though this is cardio hell. Sorry again Bro, not ashamed to say I just don't know, so I ask with the willingness to learn. I hope you can feel me on that.
> 
> ...


Oral Turinabol is fine at 50mg daily for starters but after a few weeks if I had no problems I would increase it to 60-75mg. 8 weeks is fine.

Use an aromatase inhibitor like Aromasin to control water. This will control excessive estro and keep free T high. High estro is why women have female pattern fat distribution so if you are cutting an AI is a no brainer.


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## BasLandis (Feb 3, 2010)

Heavy, lightly run over whats changed in the 5 yrs.

What where your mistakes or regrets looking back? 

What are common repeat mistakes by all?

Please, please get me tips/advice on syringe protocol, I'm still so green about this. Anything.

Whats your take on V-E, magnesium, zinc, other supplements during/before/after/never? 

Whats the shortest sust can run? Longest tren can run?

In your opinion, what does your bodys organs go through during a run?


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## heavyiron (Feb 3, 2010)

BasLandis said:


> Heavy, lightly run over whats changed in the 5 yrs.
> 
> What where your mistakes or regrets looking back?
> 
> ...


We have more science than we did years ago but aas use is pretty basic. You can acheive a lot with just Testosterone and an AI.

Common mistakes are using too many compounds at once when first starting.

I just load and shoot. Nothing too complicated about it. I do like to shoot right after a shower. The pin tends to penetrate the skin easier.

I take a multi, Omega 3 fish oil, CQ-10, Saw Palmetto, Glucosimine, baby asprin, plant sterols, extra vit C, liv 52, NAC, Creatine, Glutamine, BCAA.

8 weeks on sust and Tren.

Lipids are negatively affected in a dose dependant relationship especially HDL. Liver enzymes may rise. Blood pressure may increase.


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## Mudge (Feb 3, 2010)

NPP seems pretty popular for the women folk, kinda surprised nandrolone @ 50mg was working her into manhood. I had a friend with the raspy voice ordeal, she was trying winny at I think 10mg a day, she dropped that quick and went to the deca.


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## martialartsman (Feb 4, 2010)

Hi Heavy one thing i would like to ask is what sort of dose would you suggest for a tren e and test cycle. I couldnt get tren A so i have opted for tren e. I have done many cycles over the years but to be honest i never did any research, im older now at 39 and would like to get the most out of this. I have never used tren before. i was thinking of test 600mg wk and tren e at 250/300mg wk kickstart with dbol for first 5 wks. All together about 12 wks. Does that sound about right?
Cheers mate.


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## martialartsman (Feb 4, 2010)

Sorry forgot to say i have Adex, Clomid, Nolv ect for cycle and PCT.
Cheers.


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## heavyiron (Feb 4, 2010)

martialartsman said:


> Hi Heavy one thing i would like to ask is what sort of dose would you suggest for a tren e and test cycle. I couldnt get tren A so i have opted for tren e. I have done many cycles over the years but to be honest i never did any research, im older now at 39 and would like to get the most out of this. I have never used tren before. i was thinking of test 600mg wk and tren e at 250/300mg wk kickstart with dbol for first 5 wks. All together about 12 wks. Does that sound about right?
> Cheers mate.


Yes, good ratio.


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## martialartsman (Feb 5, 2010)

Thanks for the reply mate.


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## Supermans Daddy (Mar 10, 2010)

Hello again. I need to tap into your wisdon yet another time. The situation
is as follows :

A close friend has been on cycle of Tren A and Test Prop @ 300mg of each compound weekly for 6 weeks. Gyno started to show @ around week 2. We combated that with 40mg of Nolva and 5 to 10 mg Airemidex ED and continued the cycle with pretty good results. The Gyno did not go away but it did stop increase'n. It seems to be reversing itself now after the cycle was stopped after 6 weeks. My question is should we continue the doses of Nolva/Airemidex the same or change anything ?


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## heavyiron (Mar 10, 2010)

Mikhal said:


> Hello again. I need to tap into your wisdon yet another time. The situation
> is as follows :
> 
> A close friend has been on cycle of Tren A and Test Prop @ 300mg of each compound weekly for 6 weeks. Gyno started to show @ around week 2. We combated that with 40mg of Nolva and 5 to 10 mg Airemidex ED and continued the cycle with pretty good results. The Gyno did not go away but it did stop increase'n. It seems to be reversing itself now after the cycle was stopped after 6 weeks. My question is should we continue the doses of Nolva/Airemidex the same or change anything ?


 Your Arimidex dose does not make sense. Recheck your numbers.


----------



## Supermans Daddy (Mar 10, 2010)

I' m not sure about the amount that would make sense in this situation, but it's right around 5 mgs ed. I've read that gyno need to be aggressively attacked, but really don't know a "proper" dose to suggest. I normally would have just said stop the cycle at the first sign of gyno and clear that up, but it seemed like we got it under control so we stopped at a short but cool 6 week run. The lumps are going away but any advise is considered a blessing my friend. School me up. Part of the problem is that we've got tons on AI's and Serms here, so we flood the works when the lumps (panic lol) starts.


----------



## heavyiron (Mar 10, 2010)

Mikhal said:


> I' m not sure about the amount that would make sense in this situation, but it's right around 5 mgs ed. I've read that gyno need to be aggressively attacked, but really don't know a "proper" dose to suggest. I normally would have just said stop the cycle at the first sign of gyno and clear that up, but it seemed like we got it under control so we stopped at a short but cool 6 week run. The lumps are going away but any advise is considered a blessing my friend. School me up. Part of the problem is that we've got tons on AI's and Serms here, so we flood the works when the lumps (panic lol) starts.


 5mg-10mg of Arimidex is a massive dose. WAY too much.

How long ago was his last administration of steroids exactly.


----------



## Glycomann (Mar 10, 2010)

heavyiron. said:


> I personally prefer Cypionate and you could definately use it instead of prop but cyp is about 15% less hormone than prop so you need to adjust the dose up on the cyp. Additionally I would increase the cyp dose even more to get some good horsepower and keep libido.
> 
> Frontloading heavy esters does not increase gains much over not frontloading because regardless of blood androgen levels muscle takes time to build. You MIGHT get gains a week sooner frontloading if you are lucky. Here is what I would do;
> 
> ...



That is an awesome cycle.  Hit your diet, sleep and training right and you will look like you are made of metal. Parabolin has the best trenbolone ester in my opinion.


----------



## Buzzard (Mar 10, 2010)

heavyiron. said:
			
		

> 5mg-10mg of Arimidex is a massive dose. WAY too much.
> 
> How long ago was his last administration of steroids exactly.



He must mean .5-1.0mg, huh?


----------



## Supermans Daddy (Mar 10, 2010)

Buzzard said:


> He must mean .5-1.0mg, huh?



You know what, I'm not a lier if I was I would say " Oh yeah thats what I meant" lol. Unfortunately the truth is I'm speaking 5 mg. Theres a point of just  not knowing which is where I'm at on this. So , yes it has been 5mgs ed for some 4 weeks. Last inject of juice was Friday past. No trip to doctors for another 4 weeks, so no test results. I will tell him look for sides and inform him to adjust the dose down. Since everything is made here ,the fellas have it up as high as 5 mg per ml and just take what they need. At any rate, can you perhaps suggest something a bit closer to sanity than I came up with.

On a whole different note, I seriously want to thank you for take'n time to help me as well as teach'n me things that will make me better informed,therefore more complete. You good people in my book Homey ! You always come thru............ Gotta get you a cape.


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## heavyiron (Mar 10, 2010)

1mg adex daily for 2 more weeks and 20mg nolva daily for 1 more week.


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## Supermans Daddy (Mar 24, 2010)

Wanted to say thanks for the info you gave me a while back on T bol. My homey ran it at 75mg ed for 6 weeks with the (proper protectants) as part of a cutting cycle with Tren A and Test prop for 10 weeks...........EXCELLENT results !!! Looking like he's a superhero. LOL Thats was way cool big Homey. I don't happen to read as much usable, INTELLIGENT, combined with a fly attitude bout give'n the game to those who request type info as I get from you . Real Talk ! Good look'n out.

Peace and Love


----------



## Getfit75 (Mar 24, 2010)

I'm having trouble shedding my midsection and flabby) moobs. I'M Still at %18 bf. I'm on clen and t3 but i'm afraid i'm dropping muscle. I dont have really any fat anywhere on me but from my waist to my neck. I have a good diet, cardio. Is there anything else i can do b4 i try dnp and fuck myself up?


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## heavyiron (Mar 24, 2010)

Getfit75 said:


> I'm having trouble shedding my midsection and flabby) moobs. I'M Still at %18 bf. I'm on clen and t3 but i'm afraid i'm dropping muscle. I dont have really any fat anywhere on me but from my waist to my neck. I have a good diet, cardio. Is there anything else i can do b4 i try dnp and fuck myself up?


 Are you using any anabolics? 

What does your training and diet look like?


----------



## Getfit75 (Mar 24, 2010)

Diet is just lean meats and green veggies And drink 150grams protein daily.  Workout every day doing tons of reps until i cant move with 30 min cardio in the mornings.   I was trying to lower my bf before starting a test e and dbol cycle. I'M only just thru first week of clen and t3 and ive dropped 4lbs but i feel weak working out now.


----------



## fredlabrute (Mar 24, 2010)

Had the same problem!!!Cycle your carbs,some high carbs day every 3 day.Maybe your lifting weight too often, HIIT cardio training could help you too!And last but not least,all your food on a scale with an accurate count of your calories!After you'll be able to play with that!


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## heavyiron (Mar 24, 2010)

Getfit75 said:


> Diet is just lean meats and green veggies And drink 150grams protein daily. Workout every day doing tons of reps until i cant move with 30 min cardio in the mornings. I was trying to lower my bf before starting a test e and dbol cycle. I'M only just thru first week of clen and t3 and ive dropped 4lbs but i feel weak working out now.


 You need an anabolic while on the T3. It will help you lose bodyfat while sparing the muscle.


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## Supermans Daddy (Mar 24, 2010)

Well here we go again............

Just look'n for YOUR opinion on this. Say one had access to a couple hundred grams of T bol,Winny,Anavar. Would you combine any of these as a blend in caps ?
So far theres been 50mg winny/80 mg anavar, but would you mix T bol with either of the other compounds and at what doseages ? Would T bol/ Winny be just crazy stress on the liver ?


----------



## Getfit75 (Mar 24, 2010)

Thank you


----------



## heavyiron (Mar 24, 2010)

Mikhal said:


> Well here we go again............
> 
> Just look'n for YOUR opinion on this. Say one had access to a couple hundred grams of T bol,Winny,Anavar. Would you combine any of these as a blend in caps ?
> So far theres been 50mg winny/80 mg anavar, but would you mix T bol with either of the other compounds and at what doseages ? Would T bol/ Winny be just crazy stress on the liver ?


 I am not a fan of stacking orals or blends so I would not do it at all. I like to take whatever I want and not be tied down to a particular ratio.


----------



## jcar1016 (Mar 25, 2010)

Hey Heavy much respect and Bumps you are one of the most knowledgable guys I've seen when It comes to AAS.  I have a question for you if you will.  I'm on a cycle of:

750mg sust ew pinning tues and fri
40mg ed d-bol weeks 1-5
40mg winny weeks 5-9
and thats it keeping it simple this time

My question is Ive used d-bol a handful of times in the past but this time I've just started to get debilitating cramps at night.  This is the first time I've used this brand of d-bol dont know if that has anything to do with it or what.  They are the British Dispensary 5mg pinks.  I get plenty of taurine and potasium in my diet so I dont know whats up could I be over doin my workout or what? Thanks in advance for any info


----------



## heavyiron (Mar 25, 2010)

jcar1016 said:


> Hey Heavy much respect and Bumps you are one of the most knowledgable guys I've seen when It comes to AAS. I have a question for you if you will. I'm on a cycle of:
> 
> 750mg sust ew pinning tues and fri
> 40mg ed d-bol weeks 1-5
> ...


You may need to increase hydration. I use a low cal electrolyte drink immediately post training.





*G2* is produced by Gatorade, who says, "_G2 has the same amount of electrolytes as our original Gatorade formula, but with only 20 calories per serving.It is a low-calorie sports drink that helps athletes stay fueled for ultimate performance._"

NUTRITION FACTS
*Serving Size*: 8 ounces
*Calories*: 20
*Total Fat*: 0%
*Sodium*: 110 mg, 5%
*Carbohydrates*: 5 grams
*Sugars*: 5 grams
*Protein*: 0 grams


----------



## jcar1016 (Mar 25, 2010)

I've been drinkin good ol h2o like a fish but if you recomend it I'll definately give the g2 a try thanks heavy I'll let you know how that goes


----------



## heavyiron (Mar 25, 2010)

jcar1016 said:


> I've been drinkin good ol h2o like a fish but if you recomend it I'll definately give the g2 a try thanks heavy I'll let you know how that goes


 As soon as you feel the cramping consume a G2 or any other electrolyte beverage since you are already taking everything else you need.


----------



## jcar1016 (Mar 25, 2010)

will do thanks its been mostly at night I been waking up with em


----------



## Supermans Daddy (Mar 25, 2010)

Hey Big Homey

Can one use Deca and Prop as part of a cutting cycle ?


----------



## Getfit75 (Mar 26, 2010)

I have eq and test e on hand.  What one and what dose would be good to run with my t3 then?


----------



## heavyiron (Mar 26, 2010)

Getfit75 said:


> I have eq and test e on hand. What one and what dose would be good to run with my t3 then?


 300mg of testosterone weekly is all you need. No EQ.


----------



## KoRuPTiOn (Mar 29, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> 1 gram Test weekly for 10 weeks
> 50 mg Methandienone daily weeks 1-4 & 7-12
> 450mg Deca weekly for weeks 1-7
> 400mg Tren Ace weeks 8-12
> ...




Thanks for your advice , I decided to drop some more weight before starting and also gather together the aromasin and some HCG  .....

I have everything made up and ready to roll and im down to 254 i lost 20 pounds in the last 2 months since my last post ive just been doing high reps and lots of cardio and have my diet under control only fat i take in is from olive oil fish oil, nuts right now im only taking in 250 grams of protein a day but ready to step it up to 500 right before i start the cycle.


Heres my question so im prepared for PCT ......  is this the correct way to go......

1,000 IUs hcg  3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED  for 3 weeks. Then, discontinue hcg  and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED  for an additional 3 weeks 

PS Thanks for making me realize how fat I was/am lol and i really appreciate your help


----------



## weldingman (Mar 29, 2010)

Mikhal said:


> Hey Big Homey
> 
> Can one use Deca and Prop as part of a cutting cycle ?


 
Yes, u can use any cutting cycle with deca and especially prop.


----------



## Supermans Daddy (Mar 29, 2010)

weldingman said:


> Yes, u can use any cutting cycle with deca and especially prop.



Thank for that info, that was mad cool. Got another question regards to this. I got doseages correct ( Thanx Dragon ) but just want your opinion on this. In a cutt'n cycle, with your experience with this compound would you suggest a short ester NPP,or just Deca ND. Is the water retention the main difference or does it really even matter ? BTW Props to you, I watched you bench press the EARTH on youtube LOL ,you hella,hella strong Homey !


----------



## GFR (Jun 21, 2010)

HeavyIron, what do you think of KETO, I am running it for the next 9 weeks. Normally people eat 20-30g of carbs a day or less but since I am training 7 days a week I was thinking I could get away with 40g daily?


----------



## heavyiron (Jun 22, 2010)

GeorgeForemanRules said:


> HeavyIron, what do you think of KETO, I am running it for the next 9 weeks. Normally people eat 20-30g of carbs a day or less but since I am training 7 days a week I was thinking I could get away with 40g daily?


 Keto is a fast way to lose weight but I doubt you will go into ketosis at 40g carbs daily. 20g carbs daily from fiberous veggies will put you into ketosis. I would recommend urine strips so you can monitor ketosis. That will show you exactly how many carbs you may consume given your activity level.


----------



## Saney (Jun 22, 2010)

Heavy,

How are injections done? Say in the Quad for a newbie. Do i insert on an angle, straight in, real fast, slow, or what?


----------



## heavyiron (Jun 22, 2010)

*INTRAMUSCULAR INJECTIONS (IM) - QUADRICEPS.*​




*Instructions:
The above photo indicates the injection location for the outer and inner (tear drop) quadricep muscle heads.

For the outer quad muscle head, inject at the halfway point between your hip bone and your knee.
For the inner (tear drop) quad muscle head, inject directly into the middle of the muscle head.

25gauge 1 inch (25mm) long needles are adequate.
*​


----------



## Saney (Jun 22, 2010)

I came when i seen the picture.. I'm not talking about location.. I'm talking about technique and or how to jab myself.


----------



## heavyiron (Jun 22, 2010)

I like to inject slowly deep in the muscle belly.


----------



## Saney (Jun 22, 2010)

Thats great, really is. But I mean more specifically, "HOW" to insert the needle slowly in the muscle belly.

Am I retarded or are you High?


----------



## GFR (Jun 22, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> Keto is a fast way to lose weight but I doubt you will go into ketosis at 40g carbs daily. 20g carbs daily from fiberous veggies will put you into ketosis. I would recommend urine strips so you can monitor ketosis. That will show you exactly how many carbs you may consume given your activity level.


So far I have been around 20g a day, was just hoping to bump it up to 40g in about week 6. 

Thanks for the info.


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## heavyiron (Jun 22, 2010)

GeorgeForemanRules said:


> So far I have been around 20g a day, was just hoping to bump it up to 40g in about week 6.
> 
> Thanks for the info.


 Yeah, you might be able to. My wife can easily go into ketosis but it takes me days so it is apparently individualistic that is why I use ketone strips to verify it.

Atkins was the first person I ever read that proposed what you are asking. His diet has 4 stages if memory serves. Stage 1 was 20g fiberous carbs daily max. The next stages allowed a little more carbs at every stage but I think the durations were fairly long. Let me see if I can dig up the stages.


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## heavyiron (Jun 22, 2010)

Check out this link;

Atkins - Four Phases Overview

*12 to 15 grams of net carbs in vegetables in phase 1*

*You add a little more carbs in phase 2*


----------



## Curt James (Jun 23, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> Keto is a fast way to lose weight but I doubt you will go into ketosis at 40g carbs daily. 20g carbs daily from fiberous veggies will put you into ketosis. *I would recommend urine strips so you can monitor ketosis. *That will show you exactly how many carbs you may consume given your activity level.



I'm taking in maybe 10g daily (9.5 grams in my scoop of Fiberlyze) and those Ketostix® don't register jack. I'm definitely under 20g carbs daily.

Still, I'm losing consistently if not quickly during my keto attempt. 

Just Googled and the one site recommends testing first thing in the morning. Will give that a shot.


----------



## heavyiron (Jun 24, 2010)

Curt James said:


> I'm taking in maybe 10g daily (9.5 grams in my scoop of Fiberlyze) and those Ketostix® don't register jack. I'm definitely under 20g carbs daily.
> 
> Still, I'm losing consistently if not quickly during my keto attempt.
> 
> Just Googled and the one site recommends testing first thing in the morning. Will give that a shot.


 It is possible you are not counting all carbs. That is the most common mistake on Keto. Almost everything has carbs. It is a tough diet to follow unless you prepare 100% of your meals. 

I did get a bad batch of strips once. They never worked at all. I purchased new strips and I was deep into ketosis. You can order fresh strips from your pharmacist. These are the only ones I would use.

How many days have you been on the diet?


----------



## nd2bhge (Jun 24, 2010)

hey heavy im sure you have read my cycle in some of my other posts youve responded in but im in wk 12 of 16 wk i just switched from testE and eq to testP tren and mastA with some winny can i stop the adex ive been running the whole time or switch to aromison or something. reason is im  almost out of the adex and almost done cycle i have clomid and nolva for pct,but dont worry i wont use the nolva the first few days after last tren shot plus my last hcg shot will be about 3 days after last tren test mast shot so pct wont start till hcg clears. does all this make sense and what about the adex?
also just want to say all you post here are greatly appreciated!!


----------



## Curt James (Jun 24, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> It is possible you are *not counting all carbs.* That is the most common mistake on Keto. Almost everything has carbs. It is a tough diet to follow unless you prepare 100% of your meals.
> 
> I did get a bad batch of strips once. They never worked at all. I purchased new strips and I was deep into ketosis. You can order fresh strips from your *pharmacist.* These are the only ones I would use.
> 
> *How many days have you been on the diet?*



I'm sure I'm not. I've been eating three or four of those baby tomatoes on my salad each day plus the peanut butter has some in it as well. I'm eating one teaspoon of Nature's Promise peanut butter with each "meal" (up to three teaspoons per day) but that only has 6g of carbs in two _tablespoons_.

Still, I agree, I'm probably not calculating my carb intake accurately.

I purchased the stix from the local CVS pharmacy. 

I've been on the diet since April. 

196.6 lbs. April 3, 2010
 195.8 lbs. April 10
194.7 lbs. April 17
193.3 lbs. April 24
190.4 lbs. May 1
188.2 lbs. May 8
186.3 lbs. May 15
186.6 lbs. May 22 (ten pounds in seven weeks)
183.8 lbs. May 29
182.2 lbs. June 5
181.2 lbs. June 12
179.6 lbs. June 19

Definitely pleased with the changes I've seen and the simplicity of the diet.


----------



## heavyiron (Jun 24, 2010)

nd2bhge said:


> hey heavy im sure you have read my cycle in some of my other posts youve responded in but im in wk 12 of 16 wk i just switched from testE and eq to testP tren and mastA with some winny can i stop the adex ive been running the whole time or switch to aromison or something. reason is im almost out of the adex and almost done cycle i have clomid and nolva for pct,but dont worry i wont use the nolva the first few days after last tren shot plus my last hcg shot will be about 3 days after last tren test mast shot so pct wont start till hcg clears. does all this make sense and what about the adex?
> also just want to say all you post here are greatly appreciated!!


 Yup, use up the Adex and switch to Aromasin. Aromasin is perfect towards the end.


----------



## nd2bhge (Jun 25, 2010)

also how do you feel about dostinex? i know its good to use with tren and deca for sexual sides but i was wondering if you think it has any use just for daily supplementation to help with focus and bedroom stuff? i was thinking of dropping my nolva and running just aroma and dostinex but staying on dostinex for a while. 
just curious about your thoughts oh yoda. lol


----------



## Glycomann (Jun 25, 2010)

Heavy do you hae an opinion on the 19 nor compounds and prolactin isssues?  I know that they have progestogenic activity and that activity appears to act through the PR but I see no link to prolactin secretion.  As you may know prolactin can not only be secreted from the pituitary but also from epithelial tissues and some breast tissues especially in certain kinds of carcinoma.  I have seen side effects from tren and deca resolved with a D2 agonist which would suggest systemic prolactin from the pituitary.  Yet serum prolactin concentrations are in normal range most times.  I have thought that maybe ther is autocrin or paracrin activity meaning secretion form the tissue effected or a local tissue. I have thought that if prolactin is Pr signal dependent that someone would have done a microarray analysis during progesterone or analog stimulus.  Such a study might say whether or not Pr signals progesterone synth or secretion. Alas, I have found no such study.  What are your thought?


----------



## heavyiron (Jun 25, 2010)

nd2bhge said:


> also how do you feel about dostinex? i know its good to use with tren and deca for sexual sides but i was wondering if you think it has any use just for daily supplementation to help with focus and bedroom stuff? i was thinking of dropping my nolva and running just aroma and dostinex but staying on dostinex for a while.
> just curious about your thoughts oh yoda. lol


 
I like it and Pramipexole. Lots of info on both of these.





*Cabergoline- the latest in libido enhancement*

Cabergoline increases the levels of dopamine through its action of stimulating D2 receptor sites, it is officially approved to assist in the treatment of Parkinson???s disease, as well as treat states of prolactinoma (i.e. prevent breast development in men and reduce excess milk secretion in women). 

However, cabergoline (brand name Dostinex has been described as being able to do everything that Viagra can???t! This is because rather than induce an erection (as Viagra can); cabergoline has been shown to improve libido, orgasm and ejaculation (which Viagra has not). 

Cabergoline is from the dopaminergic family of drugs that increase the level of dopamine and also decreases the levels of the hormone prolactin. Prolactin is the hormone secreted in women after giving birth and to enhance their lactation for breast feeding. However, prolactin has recently been shown to be an inhibitor to a healthy libido, this may help explain why many women have a low sex drive after giving birth- whilst they are breast feeding. But men can also suffer from prolactinoma (high levels of prolactin) leading to a lack of sex drive- as well as developing breasts, particularly as prolactin levels tend to increase for most men with age. 

Recently it has been discovered that prolactin is released immediately after an ejaculation and may be part of the reason men like to go sleep after sex with no will for further love making. 

Cabergoline has been proven to significantly decrease prolactin and in so doing increase the sex drive (libido) substantially. There have been reports of enhanced and multiple orgasms as well as stronger ejaculations. 

To date, bromocriptine has been the main drug of choice to reduce prolactin levels, however clinical studies have confirmed that cabergoline is much more effective in this regard. For example in 450 tested subjects over 8-weeks 77% of the subjects had their prolactin levels returned to normal using 0.5mg of cabergoline twice a week, compared to 59% of subjects using bromocriptine at 2.5mg twice a day. Furthermore, side effects were far fewer in the cabergoline group, recorded at 2% of incidences compared with 60% of those taking bromocriptine. 

One fascinating trial on 60 healthy males, between the ages of 22 and 31 discovered that they needed a break of 19 minutes between love making. However, after taking cabergoline, they were able to have several orgasms within a few minutes! 

Dr. Manfred Schedlowski, who was involved in this trial in Germany, said; ???Cabergoline raised the libido to enable the male to orgasm again more quickly. We saw that prolactin rises after orgasm and then thought that maybe prolactin is a negative feedback system. Our subjects who took cabergoline had decreased prolactin levels and reported their orgasm was better and there was a shorter refractory period.??? 

Dr. Schedlowski went on to say; "We interviewed the subjects and found they were able to have multiple orgasms in very rapid succession. This is sitting very nicely with our hypothesis that orgasms and sexual drive are steered by prolactin and dopamine in the brain." 

Furthermore, cabergoline had no side effects on men during the tests; this was reported in an article for the International Journal of Impotence Research. The researchers now plan to carry out trials to investigate whether cabergoline will have the same effect on women. 

Another medical study by the Federico University, in Naples, Italy published in the European Journal of Endocrinology showed cabergoline to be very potent in increasing libido and sexual potency. The study examined cabergoline vs. bromocriptine and proved that cabergoline was superior in all respects to bromocriptine. 

17 males with prolactinoma were treated with cabergoline or bromocriptine for 6 months. All patients initially suffered from libido impairment, with 10 suffering from reduced sexual potency and 6 were infertile. Before treatment all patients suffered from low number of erections and had a low sperm count. After 1 month of treatment prolactin levels were significantly reduced in both groups of patients. A notable increase in the number of erections during the first 3 months was recorded and continued throughout the 6 months of treatment. However the improvements in seminal fluid parameters and sexual function were more evident and rapid in patients treated with cabergoline. A significant increase in the serum levels of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone were also recorded. At the beginning of treatment, mild side-effects were recorded in 2 patients using cabergoline compared to 5 in the bromocriptine patients. 

*Conclusion* It is now recognised that the stimulation of dopamine can enhance sexual arousal and this has been shown to occur with drugs such as bromocriptine, deprenyl and Sinemet. Now that prolactin is being recognised as an inhibitor of sexual function and desire, a drug such as cabergoline that enhances dopamine levels and reduces prolactin levels is being heralded as a significant libido enhancer- despite the fact that it has not yet been approved for this purpose. 

*Dosage:*
Take 0.25mg or 0.5mg no more than twice per week, unless treating a serious medical disorder whereupon the dosage may differ according to your physician's guidance, usually built up slowly to no more than 1mg twice weekly. 

*Side effects:* 
Nausea, headache, dizziness and constipation. 

*Caution:* 
Cabergoline can contraindicate with psychoactive and hypotensive drugs such as phenothiazines, butyrophenones, thioxanthenes and metoclopramides. Furthermore caution must be advised if taken concurrently with other dopamine (D2) enhancing drugs, such as bromocriptine, deprenyl and Sinemet. Although often dependant on the dosages used, these should only be administered concurrently under a physician's guidance. Cabergoline???s effects can also be exaggerated when combined with other ergots, including hydergine and nicergoline, particularly those who may be sensitive to them. Cabergoline must not be used by pregnant or lactating women.


----------



## heavyiron (Jun 25, 2010)

Glycomann said:


> Heavy do you hae an opinion on the 19 nor compounds and prolactin isssues? I know that they have progestogenic activity and that activity appears to act through the PR but I see no link to prolactin secretion. As you may know prolactin can not only be secreted from the pituitary but also from epithelial tissues and some breast tissues especially in certain kinds of carcinoma. I have seen side effects from tren and deca resolved with a D2 agonist which would suggest systemic prolactin from the pituitary. Yet serum prolactin concentrations are in normal range most times. I have thought that maybe ther is autocrin or paracrin activity meaning secretion form the tissue effected or a local tissue. I have thought that if prolactin is Pr signal dependent that someone would have done a microarray analysis during progesterone or analog stimulus. Such a study might say whether or not Pr signals progesterone synth or secretion. Alas, I have found no such study. What are your thought?


 Good question. We don't know BUT we know for sure Tren has zero effect on prolactin levels in cattle according to one study.


----------



## Built (Jun 25, 2010)

Glycomann said:


> Heavy do you hae an opinion on the 19 nor compounds and prolactin isssues?  I know that they have progestogenic activity and that activity appears to act through the PR but I see no link to prolactin secretion.  As you may know prolactin can not only be secreted from the pituitary but also from epithelial tissues and some breast tissues especially in certain kinds of carcinoma.  I have seen side effects from tren and deca resolved with a D2 agonist which would suggest systemic prolactin from the pituitary.  Yet serum prolactin concentrations are in normal range most times.  I have thought that maybe ther is autocrin or paracrin activity meaning secretion form the tissue effected or a local tissue. I have thought that if prolactin is Pr signal dependent that someone would have done a microarray analysis during progesterone or analog stimulus.  Such a study might say whether or not Pr signals progesterone synth or secretion. Alas, I have found no such study.  What are your thought?



Glycomann, in women, it is the fall in progesterone coupled with elevated estrogen that triggers lactation (via increased prolactin). Both nandrolone and tren are progestins; my question would thus be how this binding to the progesterone receptor affects the HTPA. 

My suspicion has long been that so-called progesterone-induced gyno is the realization of this effect. If this is the case, then the elevated levels of aromatizable androgen in someone with plenty of aromatase - such as someone who is perhaps a tad too juicy when starting a cycle - may be the reason. I have long postulated that preceeding such progestin-use with a low dose of AI might be prudent. I remember chatting with dg806 about this a few years ago and I seem to recall that he liked my explanation.

Glycomann, HeavyIron - thoughts?


----------



## heavyiron (Jun 27, 2010)

Built said:


> Glycomann, in women, it is the fall in progesterone coupled with elevated estrogen that triggers lactation (via increased prolactin). Both nandrolone and tren are progestins; my question would thus be how this binding to the progesterone receptor affects the HTPA.
> 
> My suspicion has long been that so-called progesterone-induced gyno is the realization of this effect. If this is the case, then the elevated levels of aromatizable androgen in someone with plenty of aromatase - such as someone who is perhaps a tad too juicy when starting a cycle - may be the reason. I have long postulated that preceeding such progestin-use with a low dose of AI might be prudent. I remember chatting with dg806 about this a few years ago and I seem to recall that he liked my explanation.
> 
> Glycomann, HeavyIron - thoughts?


Funny to read this. About a year ago I was reading that progesterone induced gyno might be addressed with an AI. The theory was that high E2 with higher than normal progesterone together caused the gyno and if E2 could be controlled the progesterone by itself would be less apt to cause gyno. How exactly this works is theoretical but the take home message is this. Take your AI. 

As men age our E2 rises and our free T declines so the older we get the more important it is to use an AI. Additionally the more bodyfat the more aromatase so fat old people need AI's even more.

I agree, guys who are gyno prone should use an AI a week or so pre-cycle.


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## Built (Jun 27, 2010)

heavyiron, is this effect more - or less - pronounced in older males? The reason I ask is that aromataze tends to increase with age (although this may be a product of increased abdominal adiposity and not germane to our cohort).


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## heavyiron (Jun 27, 2010)

Built said:


> heavyiron, is this effect more - or less - pronounced in older males? The reason I ask is that aromataze tends to increase with age (although this may be a product of increased abdominal adiposity and not germane to our cohort).


 Increased aromatase is linked to age(T levels), SHBG levels and bodyfat from all the studies I have read. 

*The Effects of Injected Testosterone Dose and Age on the Conversion of Testosterone to Estradiol and Dihydrotestosterone in Young and Older Men.

*Lakshman KM, Kaplan B, Travison TG, Basaria S, Knapp PE, Singh AB, Lavalley MP, Mazer NA, Bhasin S.

Division of Endocrinology, Diabetes, and Nutrition, and Boston Claude D. Pepper Older Americans Independence Center for Function Promoting Therapies (K.M.L., T.G.T., S.Ba., P.E.K., S.Bh.), Boston University School of Medicine, Boston Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts 02118; Lahey Clinic Medical Center (B.K.), Burlington, Massachusetts 01805; Charles Drew University (A.B.S.), Los Angeles, California 90059; Department of Biostatistics (T.G.T., M.P.L.), Boston University School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts 02118; and Hoffman LaRoche (N.A.M.), CH-4070 Basel, Switzerland.

*Abstract*

*Background:* During testosterone (T) therapy, T is partly converted to 17beta-estradiol (E2) and 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Effects of age, testosterone dose, and body composition on total and free E2 and DHT levels are unknown. Objective: We evaluated age and dose-related differences in E2 and DHT levels in response to graded doses of testosterone enanthate in young and older men. 

*Methods: *Fifty-one young (aged 19-35 yr) and 52 older (aged 59-75 yr) men completed treatment with monthly injections of a GnRH agonist plus randomly assigned weekly doses of testosterone enanthate (25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg) for 5 months. 

*Results:* During testosterone administration, total and free E2 levels increased dose-dependently (dose effect, P < 0.001) in both young and older men. Total and free E2 levels and E2:T ratios during T administration were higher in older than young men, but age-related differences in free E2 and free E2:T ratios were not significant after adjusting for testosterone levels, percentage fat mass, and SHBG. DHT levels and DHT:T ratios were dose-related but did not differ between young and older men. Mechanistic modeling of free hormone data revealed that the conversions of T to E2 and DHT were both consistent with saturable Michaelis-Menten kinetics. The in vivo Km values were estimated to be 1.83 nM for aromatase and 3.35 nM for 5alpha-reductase, independent of age. The Vmax parameter for E2 was 40% higher in older men than younger men, but Vmax for DHT was not significantly different between age groups. 

*Conclusions:* During im testosterone administration, E2 and DHT levels exhibit saturable increases with dose. The rate of whole body aromatization is higher in older men, partly related to their higher percentage fat mass, SHBG, and testosterone levels. 

(J Clin Endocrinol Metab 95: 0000???0000, 2010)


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## Built (Jun 27, 2010)

Yes, I know this, that wasn't what I was asking. 

What I was asking is if the effect - the so-called "progestin-induced gyno" is more common in older men, in your experience.


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## heavyiron (Jun 28, 2010)

Built said:


> Yes, I know this, that wasn't what I was asking.
> 
> What I was asking is if the effect - the so-called "progestin-induced gyno" is more common in older men, in your experience.


Oh, I see. I don't have any data to support an answer but since there is typically more aromatase as we age it would make sense.


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## Built (Jun 28, 2010)

Exactly. The hormonal milieu is consistent with my conjecture. Anecdotal evidence isn't proof, but it would at least be supportive.


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