# calorie ratios



## ovr40 (Aug 13, 2011)

ok,rules of thumb I've heard-1 gram prot per pound bw or better
                                      1/2 gram fat per lean pound body mass
so, at 150 pounds bw,10% fat, thats 135 lean body mass

prot=4cal/gram
carb=4 cal per gram
fat=9 cal/gram

maintenance calories are 2600
therefore,if i do 200 gram prot=800 cal
                       68 gram fat =632 cal
                                 total=1432 cal
that leaves 1168 for carbs, which is 292 grams
this ratio is prot=30%
                 fat=25%
               carbs=45%
My dilema is that i want to add mass w/o increasing bf, should i increase prot and carbs, or just protein. the percentages look out of whack, but I don't know where they're SUPPOSSED to be. I know I can't bulk and cut at the same time, but i was hoping to stay fat % the same. Thanks in advance for any advice.


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## Built (Aug 13, 2011)

The ratios of calories from protein, carb and fat to total calories are not the issue. These ratios mean little in the context of body recomposition. 

If your protein is ample (usual guidelines suggest keeping protein in excess of 1g/lb lean mass; higher if cutting) and fats are sufficient (again, usual guidelines suggest keeping fats no lower than half a gram per pound lean mass, monos>saturates>polys), fill the remainder of your calories with whatever combination of protein, carb and fat you find comfortable. 

If you wish to gain weight, you must eat more calories than you burn. 
If you wish to lose weight, you must eat fewer calories than you burn. 

The exercise you choose to perform tells the food you eat where to go. Lifting weights directs calories toward the muscles that have been trained, for repair. Cardio is good for your heart, but done to the point of endurance training can tell your body to ditch metabolically expensive muscle to help the body become more efficient. 

Bulking: eat more food than you require, lift heavy, do a little cardio for your heart.
Cutting: eat less food than you require, lift heavy, do a little cardio for your heart. 

Bulk too fast, you'll gain too much fat. A moderate approach would be to plan to gain about 5 lbs a month. You'll have to gain a little fat to do this, but you gain too much fat with the muscle, reduce your intake a little.

Cut too fast, you'll drop too much muscle. Plan a moderate approach to prevent this from happening - for most, this means running a deficit of no more than 20% below maintenance. 

Does this help?


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## thomassj (Aug 13, 2011)

Built said:


> The ratios of calories from protein, carb and fat to total calories are not the issue. These ratios mean little in the context of body recomposition.
> 
> If your protein is ample (usual guidelines suggest keeping protein in excess of 1g/lb lean mass; higher if cutting) and fats are sufficient (again, usual guidelines suggest keeping fats no lower than half a gram per pound lean mass, monos>saturates>polys), fill the remainder of your calories with whatever combination of protein, carb and fat you find comfortable.
> 
> ...



This basically.  OP have you ever heard of the term bro science?  Well thats what ratios are there a great way for  mindless bbers to eat but in reality you dont need much more protein then 1 gram/lbm.  Dont be afraid of fats and carbs as carbs are used for hormal function and energy, fats mainly for hormones if carbs are sufficient and energy if you go keto and also used for energy either way.  Pick a plan calculate your own macros.  Like we both said for protein you can go higher if you wish but it wont be much of an added benefit.  Fats should be around .35 x bw if your cutting or more if you wish and carbs can fill up the rest of your calories or, you can have more fats and protein.  Fill your macros with foods that satisfy you theres no clean or dirty foods only calories and macros.  No foods will give you added fat gain unless you consume to many calories.


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## ovr40 (Aug 13, 2011)

both replies were helpfull, thanks. So the "diet is everything" seems to be bunk, if all I have to do is 1 g prot/ lb and over 1/2 g fat per lbm. Do this and stay 500 cal over maint w/ heavy compounds=growth? So i'm just complicating it?


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## judojosh (Aug 13, 2011)

A bad macro split can certainly lead to fat gain. And notice I said fat gain not overall weight gain. If you take someone and given them a high carb/high fat/low protein diet or a high carb/low protein/low fat diet and even at calorie maintenance that person would have a higher risk of that "skinny fat" body type. 

While one macro by itself won't lead to fat gain, such as the myth of fat intake makes you fat, but most certainly your overal macro split will determine your body composition.


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## ovr40 (Aug 13, 2011)

maybe my lingo is bad, you ssy "bad macro split" and I say "calorie ratio", but we;re talking about the same idea/principle. So what I should gather thus far is that- If i'm over 1 g prot/ lb  and atleast 1/2 gram fat / lean lb, then I would really have to go to one extreme or the other to really make a difference with the remaining calories (macros)


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## Built (Aug 13, 2011)

thomassj said:


> This basically.  OP have you ever heard of the term bro science?  Well thats what ratios are there a great way for  mindless bbers to eat but in reality you dont need much more protein then 1 gram/lbm.  Dont be afraid of fats and carbs as carbs are used for hormal function and energy, fats mainly for hormones if carbs are sufficient and energy if you go keto and also used for energy either way.  Pick a plan calculate your own macros.  Like we both said for protein you can go higher if you wish but it wont be much of an added benefit.  Fats should be around .35 x bw if your cutting or more if you wish and carbs can fill up the rest of your calories or, you can have more fats and protein.  Fill your macros with foods that satisfy you theres no clean or dirty foods only calories and macros.  No foods will give you added fat gain unless you consume to many calories.



Interesting. You like fats lower for cutting. I like 'em higher for cutting - mind you, I use lbm for macronutrient targets rather than bodyweight - I find it easier to make it meaningful, especially when the individual is significantly over-fat. 

In either case, there's no real upper limit for either fat or protein (or carb, for that matter), other than "stay within your budget for calories". Protein is satiating though - and spares lean mass. For cutting, lean heavily on protein. 




ovr40 said:


> both replies were helpfull, thanks. So the "diet is everything" seems to be bunk, if all I have to do is 1 g prot/ lb and over 1/2 g fat per lbm. Do this and stay 500 cal over maint w/ heavy compounds=growth? So i'm just complicating it?



Pretty much, that's it, or at least 80% of it. You can spend the rest of your life mentally masturbating over the other 20%, or not. It's not going to matter much unless you're getting set to get on a stage in a marble-bag.



judojosh said:


> A bad macro split can certainly lead to fat gain.


Do you mean, if the calories are too high? Or do you mean the split amonst protein, carb and fat independent of calories?


judojosh said:


> And notice I said fat gain not overall weight gain. If you take someone and given them a high carb/high fat/low protein diet or a high carb/low protein/low fat diet and even at calorie maintenance that person would have a higher risk of that "skinny fat" body type.


Most of us know by now to ensure fats and proteins are at least at their minimums. 


judojosh said:


> While one macro by itself won't lead to fat gain, such as the myth of fat intake makes you fat, but most certainly your overal macro split will determine your body composition.


I think we're arguing the same point, but let's make sure we're clear - most of us here know by now to keep protein and fat at least at their minimums. If these are covered, and your calories are set to an appropriate limit, the split of protein, fat and carb won't matter. If your protein is insufficient or your fats are of poor quality (trans, damaged), you're likely to have problems. 

If you eat too much, you're going to turn into a damned fatass, no matter how clean is your diet.


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## Built (Aug 13, 2011)

ovr40 said:


> maybe my lingo is bad, you ssy "bad macro split" and I say "calorie ratio", but we;re talking about the same idea/principle. So what I should gather thus far is that- If i'm over 1 g prot/ lb  and atleast 1/2 gram fat / lean lb, then I would really have to go to one extreme or the other to really make a difference with the remaining calories (macros)



Yep. And there's nothing wrong with your lingo.


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## judojosh (Aug 13, 2011)

ovr40 said:


> maybe my lingo is bad, you ssy "bad macro split" and I say "calorie ratio", but we;re talking about the same idea/principle. So what I should gather thus far is that- If i'm over 1 g prot/ lb  and atleast 1/2 gram fat / lean lb, then I would really have to go to one extreme or the other to really make a difference with the remaining calories (macros)



Yes macro split and calorie ratio are the same thing, just worded differently. 

There is no need for any extreme dieting and that is not why I was implying or suggesting. The above ratio from Built is solid and actually pretty closely resembles my own split.


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## Built (Aug 13, 2011)

If you think in terms of grams and not percentages, and target those grams to lean mass, it's a lot easier to come up with a non-fucked baseline diet. 

I love fats. I keep mine really high. Anecdotally, I've found a lot of women seem to feel more comfortable with fats kept higher - I could speculate on reasons why but in the meantime, I'll be dining on avocadoes and bacon. 

BTW bacon slices wrapped around chunks of avocado are to DIE for!


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## ovr40 (Aug 13, 2011)

ok, thanks built, I don't want to go compulsive w/20% fluctuating factors. I guess I want enough to grow and don't see the need in eating 4000 cal if I don't need them. Now, should i start with adding 500 cal over maint for growth, or is that too small of a number.And I don't know if you can answer this, but, If one was going to run super dmz, how would this affect the rate the calories were burned and lean body mass was added? Would this constitute a need for a much more dramatic caloric intake? Thanks 4 ur patience


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## Built (Aug 13, 2011)

Anabolics improve something known in animal husbandry as "feed efficiency" - because they improve partitioning, you'll gain more muscle than fat than you would otherwise for a given increase in calories. 

The reason for this has to do with how many calories are required to invest in a pound of muscle, vs a pound of fat. 

Most of us probably know a pound of bodyfat holds about 3500 calories of stored energy, and it doesn't take much energy for the body to do this. For the sake of discussion, let's assume it takes no energy to store it and no energy to retrieve it. It'll be easier (for me, because I don't feel like looking up the references) and won't detract from the discussion. 

Muscle is different. A pound of muscle isn't usually thought of as an energy source, but it is, and if it's at all similar to a pound of lean sirloin, holds about 500-600 calories of stored energy. However, MAKING a pound of muscle takes (I've read, and will assume for now to be true) about 2200 calories. 

You can see by the numbers that spending 2200 calories to store 500 calories isn't exactly good return on investment. The body would much rather spend nothing to store 3500 calories, and that's how we get fat so much easier than we gain muscle. 

Anabolics exert their influence by convincing the body to invest more in muscle than it ordinarily would. Think of them as agents of persuasion. 

If you overeat 3500 calories, you might gain a pound of fat - but if you could push those calories into muscle instead, you could gain 1.6 lbs.

Anabolics do this, so in a bulk, you'll gain weight faster ON gear than off. (If you think about it, on a cut, you should lose slower on gear than off, because lean mass is somewhat protected.)

The short answer is do as you planned - watch the tummy, and if you gain too much fat too soon, dial it back a bit.


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## judojosh (Aug 13, 2011)

Built said:


> Interesting. You like fats lower for cutting. I like 'em higher for cutting - mind you, I use lbm for macronutrient targets rather than bodyweight - I find it easier to make it meaningful, especially when the individual is significantly over-fat.
> 
> In either case, there's no real upper limit for either fat or protein (or carb, for that matter), other than "stay within your budget for calories". Protein is satiating though - and spares lean mass. For cutting, lean heavily on protein.
> 
> ...



I'm on my phone so I can't multi quote like you  ... Well I could but I'm lazy 

To summarize though, yes by macro split I am referring to the ratio of the macro nutrients that make up your diet. 

I agree 100% that even if you are cutting there is no reason to lower your fat intake. Only exception is if you are prepping for some sort of contest or show but other than that fat is your friend  and yes I think we are pretty much in agreement here. My issue is the phrase that your macro ratios don't matter. Yes calories in vs calories out is what determines you overall weight gain or loss BUT as far as body composition the break down of those calories are gonna determine your composition. The I feel it is coming across is that as long as you hit you calorie mark you will get skinny and this is a little misleading IMO, especially since the OP doesnt seem to have much of an understanding of nutrition. If someone has a maintenance of 2000 calories, they can't eat whatever they want and expect to be lean just because it is 2K calories. Those minimums you are suggesting is a macro split. 

But again I think we are in overall agreement here, I guess I am just nit picking


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## Built (Aug 13, 2011)

That's why I wrote homework I, my friend. The OP has already interacted here, so he knows to keep protein and fat no lower than their suggested minimums. If those are covered, the rest is gloss.


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## pebble (Aug 13, 2011)

thomassj said:


> This basically. OP have you ever heard of the term bro science? Well thats what ratios are there a great way for mindless bbers to eat but in reality you dont need much more protein then 1 gram/lbm. Dont be afraid of fats and carbs as carbs are used for hormal function and energy, fats mainly for hormones if carbs are sufficient and energy if you go keto and also used for energy either way. Pick a plan calculate your own macros. Like we both said for protein you can go higher if you wish but it wont be much of an added benefit. Fats should be around .35 x bw if your cutting or more if you wish and carbs can fill up the rest of your calories or, you can have more fats and protein. Fill your macros with foods that satisfy you *theres no clean or dirty foods only calories and macros.* No foods will give you added fat gain unless you consume to many calories.



This is all pretty strong info.  The protein suggestion may be  a little high, but it is respectable.  The only real issue I have with what you posted  is what I bolded.

Well clean or dirty are ambiguous terms so you are right in that sense, but the nutrient density and physio/biological effect of a food based off of its macro and micro nutrients do play a large role in how our body functions.   Even just considered the acidic vs. alkaline properties of steak vs. broccoli and how they can have the capability to shift p.H. levels which  can start to cause enzymes to decrease in functionality and lead to digestive problems.


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## ovr40 (Aug 13, 2011)

Built said:


> That's why I wrote homework I, my friend. The OP has already interacted here, so he knows to keep protein and fat no lower than their suggested minimums. If those are covered, the rest is gloss.


 

this is all I need(for now)

thanks to all !!


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## judojosh (Aug 13, 2011)

Built said:


> That's why I wrote homework I, my friend. The OP has already interacted here, so he knows to keep protein and fat no lower than their suggested minimums. If those are covered, the rest is gloss.



I am viewing the forum via Tapatalk so I can't see sigs but I am intrigued and have to remember to look it up and give that a read sometime


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## Built (Aug 13, 2011)

Link's in my sig - you may have those turned off. 
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/new-members-begin-here/97077-read-me-first-homework-1-newbies.html


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## ovr40 (Aug 13, 2011)

judojosh,
what more do I need to understand if I'm not a pro bb? Other than the guidlines of protein over 1 gram and fat over 1/2 gram and staying above my maintenence to encourage growth? If you look at the very 1st opening post I haven't been told to do anything other than what I was already doing. Am I missing anything other than what was already covered?


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## judojosh (Aug 13, 2011)

ovr40 said:


> judojosh,
> what more do I need to understand if I'm not a pro bb? Other than the guidlines of protein over 1 gram and fat over 1/2 gram and staying above my maintenence to encourage growth? If you look at the very 1st opening post I haven't been told to do anything other than what I was already doing. Am I missing anything other than what was already covered?



Not really.. 

If you goal is to bulk with minimal fat gain then do as built suggested - eat a calorie surplus, lift heavy, and do some cardio. 

Personally for me I do great with a 40/40/20 split (P/F/C) I am very carb sensitive and gain fat pretty easily if I have an excess of carbs so I average around 100g give or take and then just fill the rest with fats and protein. Now this doesn't mean it will work for you, you will have to experiment with it and see how you do. 

You can look into that lean gains diet strategy, I have read some spectacular logs with people adding on lbm while dropping fat pretty effortlessly. But even with that approach the rule of calorie in vs calorie out is still true.


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## ovr40 (Aug 13, 2011)

thats aheck of alot of avacados, almonds and olive oil, whats ur most regular fat source?


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## Built (Aug 13, 2011)

judojosh said:


> Not really..
> 
> If you goal is to bulk with minimal fat gain then do as built suggested - eat a calorie surplus, lift heavy, and do some cardio.
> 
> ...


Your say you gain if your carbs go too high, but agree the laws of thermodynamics hold true. Do you have the same problem I do - does a high carb diet make you hungry?




ovr40 said:


> thats aheck of alot of avacados, almonds and olive oil, whats ur most regular fat source?


Not sure whom you address, but I eat an avocado or two daily, plus raw nuts (pine nuts, walmuts, almonds), butter and olive oil. I butter my cooked veggies and panfry meats in butter. 

Keep in mind I'm smaller than you - my intake is about 2000 calories a day. The largest share of my calories - often half or more - comes from fat.


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## judojosh (Aug 13, 2011)

ovr40 said:


> thats aheck of alot of avacados, almonds and olive oil, whats ur most regular fat source?



Whole eggs, EVCO, red meat, pork, nuts, EVOO, fish, ummm I think that's about it. My diet varies from day to day, it reapply depends what I have on hand and what kind of mood I am in. Its easy to get the calories in. For a while I was averaging around 10 whole eggs a day but then got sick of them. Right now I am loving EVCO and about to bring avocados into the mix.


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## Built (Aug 13, 2011)

Coconut is the bomb. I cook with coconut milk quite often. Lovely in curries. Coconut flour is great mixed into other wheat-free flours when baking, too - holds moisture in the finished product.

I also use coconut oil instead of soap. Keeps my skin nice and soft; no need for moisturizer, and I get the smoothest shave ever - no nicks, no drying out.


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## judojosh (Aug 13, 2011)

Built said:


> Your say you gain if your carbs go too high, but agree the laws of thermodynamics hold true. Do you have the same problem I do - does a high carb diet make you hungry?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes the law of thermo is definitely true! But I am not saying that I gain weight but that I gain fat. When I re-adjust my macro intake and start to eat too much carbs my body composition changes even though on the scale I maintain relatively within the same weight range. And HELL YES when I indulge in more carbs I get even more hungry! lol.. Honestly since I started following paleo principles it is kind of hard for me to even eat a excess of carbs since my carb sources are pretty much just potatoes and fruit with the occasional bowl of quiona. 

Ohh and yea I forgot butter in my fat list.. Mmmmm how can I forget butter lol


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## Built (Aug 13, 2011)

I have struggled with appetite my entire adult life. My current strategy is a "best-of" mix of various principals - mostly (but not entirely) paleo with a healthy dollop of intermittent fasting, pretty much straight keto in the daytime and any starchy carbs eaten at night. So far, it's the most comfortable way I've ever eaten. 

As an aside, I doubt a higher carb diet would influence your fat gain to any appreciable extent were you to keep a tight leash on your calories. That being said, since you and I seem to have the same appetite problems, I speak from experience when I say there is no way on God's green earth I could keep my calories under control on a high-carb, low-fat diet. It makes it impossible even to eat at maintenance. Cutting would be pure misery - I'd have to be locked up or there's no way I could make myself do it.


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## judojosh (Aug 13, 2011)

Built said:


> Coconut is the bomb. I cook with coconut milk quite often. Lovely in curries. Coconut flour is great mixed into other wheat-free flours when baking, too - holds moisture in the finished product.
> 
> I also use coconut oil instead of soap. Keeps my skin nice and soft; no need for moisturizer, and I get the smoothest shave ever - no nicks, no drying out.



You just BLEW my mind here! 

Coconut flour? Shaving with coconut oil? WTF!! I feel like I have been been missing out now!! lol

What other flours do you use? Currently when I do use a flour, which is pretty rare, it is almond meal (ground up almonds) hmmm I wonder if I can shave my beard with EVCO?? Looks like I will be using a new shaving cream tomorrow morning  also what would you say your favorite curry recipe is? Mind sharing? A had recently asked elsewhere for avocado suggestions and was told to try and pan fry avocado in some EVCO and plan on trying that out along with your other marvelous avocado suggestions this week


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## Built (Aug 13, 2011)

PS butter is proof of God's love. ♥

Mind you, I also say this about bacon.


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## judojosh (Aug 13, 2011)

P.S 

Nice to hear there are some paleo peeps here  most times when I mention paleo I either get a weird look or they try and tell me how I am wrong and need grains and will die on colon cancer, heat problems or some other babble. Either that or I get lumped in with the crossfit crowd   it's always nice to meet someone in this lifestyle (strength training, bodybuilding, etc) and is a paleo fan as well.


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## judojosh (Aug 13, 2011)

Jalapeños stuffed with cream cheese, wrapped with bacon and then cooked is heavenly! 

I also usually toss bacon into my stir frys. Makes them 10x better. Hell bacon makes everything better


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## ovr40 (Aug 13, 2011)

WAIT! BACK UP, whats wrong with wheat, ur gonna break my heart . Ilove wheat bread and wheat pastas


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## Built (Aug 13, 2011)

judojosh said:


> You just BLEW my mind here!


Shit - that was easy! Okay, what else can I come up with... 


judojosh said:


> Coconut flour? Shaving with coconut oil? WTF!! I feel like I have been been missing out now!! lol


Coconut oil is a wonderful skin cleanser. It doesn't strip the sebum - it just clears off the surface oils and dirt. My husband has suffered acne for as long as I can remember, and now that he uses coconut oil instead of soap, it's under control. Use it in the shower, with a loofah or those cheap nylon scrubbie gloves. I keep an old haircolour applicator and a yogurt tub in the shower. Melt the oil, pour into the dispenser (a plastic mustard bottle would work, too) and keep it in the stall. It'll harden but it melts easily - just fill the yogurt tub with hot water, toss in the bottle of oil, and by the time you finish washing your hair, it'll have melted enough to use). I pour a few tablespoons into my hands with the wet gloves and just scrub my body that way. I shave my legs in the shower, you need your skin wet FIRST, to soften the hairs, and then the oil on top as a lubricant for the blade. You'll get the best shave of your life with a shitty disposable bic razor using coconut oil. BTW I don't use extra virgin for this - I just get the cheap stuff from the south Asian market. 


judojosh said:


> What other flours do you use? Currently when I do use a flour, which is pretty rare, it is almond meal (ground up almonds)


I really don't bake a lot, but the odd time I do I use corn flour with some coconut flour mixed in, sometimes some rice flour and or sorghum. You really need a bit of guar gum or it doesn't hold together. If I do a carbup, I often make a rice pudding with dextrose; sometimes I make blueberry pancakes and I user corn flour for those. 

You can make Philippino-style steamed rice muffins called puto with coconut milk, rice flour and baking powder - a can of the milk, a can of the flour, a tablespoon of baking powder, a half a teaspoon of seasalt and a bit of dextrose to taste, pour into muffin cups set into custard cups and steam for about half an hour. Delish. You can put blueberries in them, too. 

I sometimes make dosa from besan (chickpea flour), sometimes with a bit of rice flour if I want them crispier.  And if I'm dredging chicken to panfry, I usually just use a bit of cornflour. But that's pretty much it. I don't eat starches daily and usually it's something simpler, like white rice or white potatoes, or lately corn on the cob because it's in season. 




judojosh said:


> hmmm I wonder if I can shave my beard with EVCO??


You most certainly can. Please see above.


judojosh said:


> Looks like I will be using a new shaving cream tomorrow morning  also what would you say your favorite curry recipe is? Mind sharing?


I use spice paste to start them - the only two I make are butter chicken (Indian) and yellow coconut milk chicken curry (Thai). I doctor up the butter chicken recipe with ground cashews, full-fat yogurt and coconut milk. To the Thai curry I add whole toasted cashews - they're lovely in a chicken curry. 

I mix jasmine and basmati rice 50-50 and call it jasmati. They're both fragrant and can never decide which I prefer, so I mix 'em.



judojosh said:


> A had recently asked elsewhere for avocado suggestions and was told to try and pan fry avocado in some EVCO and plan on trying that out along with your other marvelous avocado suggestions this week



Panfried avocado? I think it'll just melt. You can melt it into rice, Chinese style. The Chinese name for avocado translates roughly into butter fruit.


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## Built (Aug 13, 2011)

judojosh - I'm not a purist about paleo - I just eat a pretty simple diet for the most part. I eat legumes, which is not part of paleo. 

over40, nothing, if your body tolerates it. Mine doesn't, and my sister is full-blown celiac so I probably have it too. I rarely eat wheat. It bloats me up, gives me unhappy innards and makes me freakishly hungry.


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