# Rookie First Time Stack - Super-Dmz Mass Stack w/ Formeron



## Johnyb (Apr 19, 2012)

I know this is a long post for my first post but I hope some of
the true vets out there can have a solid read through and support
with some honest advice / feedback and let me know if I am on track 
with my "first time stack or cycle."

I see most people are pretty general with their posts and I figured
if I give full disclosure of everything so I can receive best feedback
from those that take the time to read this. 

I thank you all in advance.

I`ll start with some background info and then move into my first stack
combo, followed by some additional questions.


--------------------------------------------------------------------

*Background....
*
1) Age: 34
2) Weight: 174 lbs 
3) Body Fat: 8.74% 
3) Years of Consistent Training experience: 1+
4) Previous Cycle experience: "First timer" "None"

--------------------------------------------------------------------
*
Training Routine:*

Train 6 Days a week (5x Workout split and 2-3x Cardio)

Sample Current Scedule

Mondays: Shoulders and HITT Training n Abs
Tuesdays: Bi's n Tri's 
Wednesdays: Legs and 20 min HITT Training n Abs
Thursdays: Back n Bi's
Fridays: Chest n Abs
Saturday: HITT Training
Sunday: Rest Days

--------------------------------------------------------------------

*Diet: 40-40-20 (Protein-Carbs-Fats)*

I eat lean and train mean.  I think I've had a cheat
meal twice in the last 4 months.  I've mastered clean
eating and learned to love eating great tasting healthy
foods daily so the needs to cheat is no longer an issue
for me.

I track everything I eat with LoseIt app on my iPhone.
I weight and measure everything that goes into my body
so I can adjust when results come to a halt.

Some days I wll eat 50-30-20 ratio if only doing cardio.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

*Daily Average Nutrition Schedule: Currently 2600 calories (deficit)
*
Breakfast

Pre-Workout Meal
5g of Glutamine
5g of Creatine
5g of Leucine
5g of Arginine
Pre-workout Shake

Workout 45-55 min max

Post Workout Meal
10g of Glutamine
5g of Creatine
5g of Leucine
Post Workout Shake

Lunch + 5g of Glutamine

Dinner + 5g of Glutamine

Snack 

Night time 
Caesin Shake
5g of Arginine
5g of Glutamine

Water:  I drink like a fish daily, 1 1/2 - 2 gallons
daily.


Right now still eating at a slight calorie deficiet till 
I reach 5-6% bodyfat. I know if I do this stack I would
be bumping up the calories over 3K to add the mass during
cycle.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
*
Body and Body Fat Measurements:*

These are done every Sunday as soon as the wife and I
wake up we do our weekly body and body fat measurements
and track.  This way we can see when we need to rise or
lower calories based on weekly progress.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

*My Ideal Goal for Stack:*

So I've been doing a lot of research. This site honestly
rocks.  It took many hours of reading to catch up and 
educate myself on how to start my first cycle.

I've been training natural my entire life.  My goal is NOT
to pack on heaps of LMM but add some _respectable size_ that 
I hope I can maintain after my gains.

As you seen above I am currently 174 lbs at the time of this
entry and 8.74% body fat.  I am getting close to my goal of
5-6% I've been aiming for.

I would honestly love to be around 185 lbs and 5-6% body fat
and maintain that.  So as said not looking to turn into a 
freak (yet... who knows this stuff could be like getting 
your first tattoo... then you want another and so on).

--------------------------------------------------------------------
*
My Stack Based on Research here:
*
So this may be a bit overkill to my goals listed above but
I will let you veterinarians help guide me if I have steered
in wrong direction.

I've always been one to research anything before trying things
out. So hopefully what I have come up with is smart for first
cycle.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

*Super-Dmz Mass Stack w/ Formeron:*

Super-DMZ Rx - 1 bottle
Anabolic-Matrix Rx - 1 bottle
Ultra Male Rx - 1 bottle
Advanced Cycle Support Rx - 1 bottle
E-Control Rx - 1 bottle
Black Lion Research Formeron- 1 120mL bottle (or two if need it)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

*FIRST 4 WEEKS:*
Super-DMZ Rx Rx - 2 caps daily (1 cap AM / 1 cap PM)
Ultra Male Rx - 1 cap daily
Anabolic-Matrix Rx - 2 caps daily with food
Advanced Cycle Support Rx - 2 caps daily
Black Lion Research Formeron - 1 pump daily (1-2ml) apply after a shower for best results

Creatine 5g x 2 daily
Glutamine 5g x 3 and 10g x 1 daily
Leucine 5g x 2 daily
Arginine 5g x 2 daily
Multi-Vitamin 1x Daily
Vitamin C 2-3g Daily
Calcium 2-3g Daily
Potassium - Unsure daily required amount 1 tsp (3.48g) 3-4 x daily? Required first four weeks?
Taurine - AllMax 3g x 3 daily? Breakfast / 30 Min prior to workouts / Dinner

--------------------------------------------------------------------

*LAST 4 WEEKS:*
Ultra Male Rx - 1 cap daily
Anabolic-Matrix Rx - 2 caps daily with food
Advanced Cycle Support Rx - 2 caps daily
E-Control Rx - 3 caps daily (last 3 weeks) 
Clomid 100mg ED first week, 75mg/50/50
Black Lion Research Formeron - 1-2 (1-2ml) pumps per day transdermally apply after a shower for best results

Creatine 5g x 2 daily
Glutamine 5g x 3 and 10g x 1 daily
Leucine 5g x 2 daily
Arginine 5g x 2 daily
Multi-Vitamin 1x daily
Vitamin C 2-3g Daily
Calcium 2-3g Daily
Potassium - Unsure daily required amount 1 tsp (3.48g) 3-4 x daily?
Taurine - AllMax 3g daily? 30 Min prior to workouts
Allmax Pro-Competition Series Liver D-Tox (21 Day Supply) contain 380 mg Milk Thistle as well
Also read Liv52 is good for liver support

--------------------------------------------------------------------

*Your Insights on Stack:*

So after my hours of researching and reading this is the stack 
I have come up with.  Please review and advise what you guys 
think.  Again this will be my first time trying this and not
looking to sick gains of 25-30 lbs of lean muscle mass but from
what I have read about other using similar stack it has that 
ability to do so.

My main goal at the end of stack and long after PCT would be
maintain an ideal weight around 185 lbs and 5-6% with great
definition and strength.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

*Questions:*

1) I am NOT a fan of using needles and you will see I have not
added any Test or HCG to the above.  If I choose to not use
one, is there an alternative to these and using needles or 
two, okay to not incorporate at all with lil sides effects to
this stack?

2)  How does my PCT look?  I am okay with honesty guys.  I am
noob here and want to make the right decisions and purchase
everything when I KNOW I am moving in the right direction.

3)  Another question in mind with doing a cycle like this. How 
long after would it be safe to try to "conceive" if one wants
to have a baby down the road still?  Or better yet can you
still have one after doing this stuff?

4)  The way this stack is laid out will this help with suppression?
How long does suppression last will doing cycle like this?

5)  What else might I be missing from this stack?  I think I've
covered everything off but that is why I've taken the time to
write this long post to make sure I do this RIGHT first time
around unlike people that rush in and make mistakes.

6)  Ance:  Will taking 6-9g of Taurine help prevent acne or backne? 
Should I also add in any other supps to assist with acne prevention?

7) AI Support:  I've read great things about using Black Lion 
Research Formeron. I know it great for helping to tighten or 
taper everything down and even helps with gyno bit.  Should I 
stock anything else in case of gyno or like Nova? It seems from
what I've read that this is much safer and better results. You
guys would know this best?

8)  Would be be my ideal LBM I should shoot for if I would like
to maintain around 185 and 5-6% BF.  I don`t know how much
I can maintain after since I have never done this before.
I do train hard and lots of intensity.  Always use strick form
(no swinging weights, slow and controlled movements).


Again sorry if too long a post but I wanna do this right when I am 
ready to start.  Thank you for taking the time to read and add your
input.  It is much appreciated.

JohnyB


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## Vibrant (Apr 19, 2012)

Johnyb said:


> 1) I am NOT a fan of using needles and you will see I have not
> added any Test or HCG to the above.  If I choose to not use
> one, is there an alternative to these and using needles or
> two, okay to not incorporate at all with lil sides effects to
> ...



1) there is no sub for needles. honestly it's not that bad. Im not a fan of oral only cycles, I think test should be included in all cycles. with that being said, your oral cycle looks good

2) pct looks good. may be a little overkill but better safe than sorry.

3) I'll leave this one to guys that have kids

4) everybody is different on how they recover. only bloodwork can tell you for sure

5) looks ok

6) if you are getting formerone from blr, look into acnedren from them. I use it and it's great.

7) gyno isn't a big concern with sdmz but you can stock some nolva just in case.

8) Im not sure if I get your question. How do you measure your bf%? also what is your height?


props for doing research.


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## teezhay (Apr 19, 2012)

I'll be really interested to see what some more experienced users say about this, because I'm interested in Super-DMZ as well (with a strong test foundation of course).


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## Vibrant (Apr 19, 2012)

also you dont need e control if you run formerone.


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## Johnyb (Apr 19, 2012)

Vibrant said:


> also you dont need e control if you run formerone.




Thank you Vibrant... I noticed this stack without the e-Control and didn`t realize Formerone would replace entirely.

Johny B


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## Johnyb (Apr 19, 2012)

Johnyb said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *LAST 4 WEEKS:*
> Ultra Male Rx - 1 cap daily
> ...



I forgot to highlight or ask... Between both Liver products listed here which one
would you guys think is best to run with?

Thanks Johny B


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## Johnyb (Apr 20, 2012)

Vibrant said:


> 1) there is no sub for needles. honestly it's not that bad. Im not a fan of oral only cycles, I think test should be included in all cycles. with that being said, your oral cycle looks good
> 
> 2) pct looks good. may be a little overkill but better safe than sorry.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the quick reply last night.  Can you or anyone advise what "sides" if any may 
occur if no Test is used for this cycle?  

Re: My height 5'11"

Re: Bodyfat measurements.  We have our own set of highend calipers and do 9 BF site 
measurement method.  Also once every 4-6 weeks go to clinic official testing to see 
how close they are to our numbers.  It is always very close to our own methods.  Just
best to do weekly at home so we can mod calorie intake when you start to see patterns
or plateaus.

Thanks for the compz on doing the research for everything first.  That`s the way I roll.  
wouldn't want to do something that will cause more damage to body by making bad 
judgements that could have easily been avoided 

Thanks again Vibrant... 

Any others feel like chiming in with their expertise as well?

Johny B


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## Johnyb (Apr 21, 2012)

Bump...


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## msumuscle (Apr 21, 2012)

If you're running DMZ you need a serm for PCT, nothing in that stack is strong enough for superdrol, maybe some of those other puss PH's but DMZ is strong chit mang.


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## Johnyb (Apr 21, 2012)

Hmmmm... I thought I was all covered. I'll do some more research on SERM's to see which one to used and dosage. I assume I only run that last 4 weeks?


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## msumuscle (Apr 21, 2012)

Clomid 100/100/50/50
or
Nolva 20/20/10/10

Clomid optimally

& trust me brother, if you're using AAS then you will most definitely need a SERM for PCT in EVERY CYCLE.  I can guarantee you all the vets will give you the same advice.

Some may say those doses may be overkill for just a 4 week PH cycle BUT I think it's better to be safe than sorry.


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## Vibrant (Apr 21, 2012)

msumuscle said:


> Clomid 100/100/50/50
> or
> Nolva 20/20/10/10
> 
> ...



read his post. he already has clomid planned in his pct.


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## msumuscle (Apr 21, 2012)

Oh, damn!  Sorry brotha, forget my last post about the SERM.  I didn't even notice you already had clomid in there.  All your bases are covered!


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## Johnyb (Apr 21, 2012)

Can anyone advise what the results will be without adding TEST?

Would there be any addition sides for not adding?


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## Johnyb (Apr 21, 2012)

No prob @msumuscle


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## Digitalash (Apr 21, 2012)

You've obviously done your research, and maybe too much... I'm kidding but i believe you do not need half of those support supps. Superdrol does not convert to estrogen, and the dymethazine converts to superdrol so I see no reason to use an AI like formeron during cycle. Using it for pct is spot on though. It's a suicidal aromatase inhibitor like aromasin and should not cause an estrogen rebound the way a non-suicidal AI like arimidex or letrozole would. Clomid and formeron should be more than sufficient for your pct. Also like stated above E control isn't necessary when already running an AI. Ultra male RX, again up to you but I don't believe it's necessary or will provide any significant benefit on top of the SERM/AI combo you already have in place

4 weeks on an oral IMO does not require a liver support, I've also seen very little evidence that any of the herbal stuff reccomended actually protects the liver. Your liver can also recover amazingly well given proper time off between oral runs, given they are kept short. This is entirely up to you but I don't believe you need it, it certainly can't hurt though. 

As for the additional side effects you may experience without testosterone, towards the second half of the cycle you will begin experiencing the side effects of low test. Low libido/erection quality may become an issue, fatigue is prevalent with superdrol but also a sign of low test, and I believe it's because most who used superdrol when it came out did so because they were afraid to inject or had no source for the less "legal" compounds. Thus they experienced fatigue and blamed it on the superdrol when it was largely because the had no testosterone in their body's. Drive/motivation to workout may become an issue. These will be fairly shortlived though since the run will be short, and they will happen during pct regardless. It is not ideal but if you can force yourself to go to the gym and your wife is aware of your cycling... it shouldn't be a huge problem. Maybe grab some cialis just in case...

It's perfectly safe to try and concieve even on cycle, or immediately after. Your chances may be lower but that's it. Recovery is different for everyone but with a short cycle and proper pct it shouldn't take more than a few weeks beyond the end of pct to be back to 100% , and thus so also should be your reproductive capacity. 

Having read up on superdrol and used it once myself I would advise keeping water intake very very high, and possibly supplementing with taurine. I got fairly bad cramps on it and so do many others. Water intake should be high for anyone who trains obviously and also on AAS cycles, but superdrol is one especially that you should watch out for. I would also say something for blood pressure might be nice, hawthorn berry is popular but I believe the ironmag cycle support contains a few ingredients to address this issue. 


Good to see someone who's done their homework though bro. It also sounds like you are very strict with your diet. You could probably gain 15-20lbs fairly easy if you eat enough, though if that is too much for you reduce your calories a bit and you should get somewhat of a "recomp" effect with this compound. 10 lbs with a small reduction in bodyfat should be no problem. Anything I missed or any other questions feel free to ask, this is one of the best boards around IMO and everyone here is very helpful.


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## fsoe (Apr 21, 2012)

teezhay said:


> I'll be really interested to see what some more experienced users say about this, because I'm interested in Super-DMZ as well (with a strong test foundation of course).



I am 7 weeks into a 19 week prep and I kicked(30 days) mine off with SDMZ --- It was good, but not great --- I got strong on it but not Dbol strong --- I has pumps on it but not Dbol pumps --- Overall a 6 out of 10 --- It does what it says --- Lean gainer with no water retention --- But coning from someone who has used just about every oral there is ... It's a good one --- But the original Superdrol from 4-5 years ago as well as M1T were better


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## Digitalash (Apr 21, 2012)

if SDMZ has a legit 10mg of superdrol per cap plus 10mg of dymethazine how could it not be as good as old SD?


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## ~RaZr~ (Apr 22, 2012)

Something about that OG Superdrol made it ri-damn-diculously strong


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## Johnyb (Apr 22, 2012)

Digitalash said:


> You've obviously done your research, and maybe too much... I'm kidding but i believe you do not need half of those support supps. Superdrol does not convert to estrogen, and the dymethazine converts to superdrol so I see no reason to use an AI like formeron during cycle. Using it for pct is spot on though. It's a suicidal aromatase inhibitor like aromasin and should not cause an estrogen rebound the way a non-suicidal AI like arimidex or letrozole would. Clomid and formeron should be more than sufficient for your pct. Also like stated above E control isn't necessary when already running an AI. Ultra male RX, again up to you but I don't believe it's necessary or will provide any significant benefit on top of the SERM/AI combo you already have in place
> 
> 4 weeks on an oral IMO does not require a liver support, I've also seen very little evidence that any of the herbal stuff reccomended actually protects the liver. Your liver can also recover amazingly well given proper time off between oral runs, given they are kept short. This is entirely up to you but I don't believe you need it, it certainly can't hurt though.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much for your reply. Yes I've been eating clean for serveral months now hence my BF being at 8.74% tomorrow I will be doing weekly measurements to see where I am at again. Probably drop .5 to 1%. Goal is to get to 6-6.5% and maintain for summer.

I am gonna try Formeron on it's own for a month or so to see how well it responds to my body. I just ordered two bottles.

As for this stack I want to prepare for everything now and purchase everything long in advance to make sure I have my basis covered. Thanks for input so far.

If I do man up and add the TEST... I assume 400-500/weekly would be good level for a noob? If so how often would I need to pin? Daily or every so many other days?

Gains or otherwise what difference would this make adding it to this stack as suppose to leaving out? You mentioned without I would drained by end of 4 week cycle and lower libido. Would I assume gains would be higher? I really didn't want to let wifey know about cycle as she would prob freak out   Although she will see the quicker gains and question prob.

Thanks for bringing up hawthorn berry. If you think it's covered I won't source but if for added measure you think it should be added I will to list as well and repost summary.

Final question... How easy would it be to maintain gains with continued dedicated nutrition and training? I realize everyone is slightly different but don't want to gain to heavy only shrink back down quickly if cant be maintained. From what I understand if I stay focused and commited should be able to maintain at least 75%

Johny B


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## Johnyb (Apr 23, 2012)

Bump...


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## Digitalash (Apr 23, 2012)

Sorry bro I actually typed a reply to this last night but my internet froze and I thought it had posted


Anyway if you add test a perfect beginner cycle would be like this

Weeks 1-10
250mg of test enanthate or cypionate every 3.5 days, totalling 500mg a week
formeron 1 pump ED

Weeks 1-4
1 cap super dmz 2x a day

Two weeks after last test injection (continue running formeron or another AI), start clomid+formeron pct. Run for 4 weeks clomid dosed 100/75/50/50. Formeron I would assume 1 pump ED would still work fine for these purposes.

What do you intend to get out of running the formeron solo first? I would save it for on cycle as you probably won't notice much of anything by itself.

How much you maintain afterwards is entirely up to your diet/genetics/training. DIET imo being the key one. You should maintain a good bit of it though since your diet is already very on point judging by your bodyfat


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## Johnyb (Apr 24, 2012)

Digitalash said:


> Sorry bro I actually typed a reply to this last night but my internet froze and I thought it had posted
> 
> 
> Anyway if you add test a perfect beginner cycle would be like this
> ...



Thanks brotha...

My diet is spot on daily.  I track everything on Loseit.com app.  As I said earlier I measure
and weigh everything that goes into my system so I know exactly what my body is getting.
I'll do some research next on test e and c.  I've done research on everything else and sourced
so far.  It seems many things are not as easy to source into Canada or they cost a heck of a 
lot more.
*
Re: Formeron Test*

I have a photo shoot in about 30 days so I wanna look as crisp as possible for these. Brundel
says it will dry me out and drop any additional water I am carrying prior to shoot. 
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/research-chemicals/153175-formeron-log-11.html Then I will use again when ready to start this cycle. I ordered 2 bottles and 
from the reviews this stuff seems to work extremely well. Have you tried yet @Digitalash?

*Re: Total Cycle Time:*
Also lil confused about timing you mention above. This stack is meant to run 8 weeks from
what I understand yet you mention weeks 1-10 500mg test?  So would start test 2 weeks
before I start cycle or run an additional two weeks prior to starting PTC?

*Liver Support Start?*
When do you start any Liver support supps?  (2 weeks in, right away or only last four weeks)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Weeks 1 - 4
*
*Main Stack:*
Super-DMZ Rx Rx - 2 caps daily (1 cap AM / 1 cap PM)
Anabolic-Matrix Rx - 2 caps daily with food
Advanced Cycle Support Rx - 2 caps daily
Black Lion Research Formeron - 1 pump daily
Test 500mg Weekly (twice a week... Mondays and Thursdays?)
Liv52 (not sure daily dose required)

Additional Daily Supplements:
Creatine 5g x 2 daily
Glutamine 5g x 3 (with daily meals) and 10g x 1 post workout)
Leucine 5g x 2 daily (pre and post workout)
Arginine 5g x 2 daily (am and pm)
Multi-Vitamin 1x Daily (am)
Vitamin C 2-3g Daily
Potassium - 1 tsp (3.48g) 3-4 x daily?
Taurine - 3g x 3 daily? Breakfast / 30 Min prior to workouts / Dinner


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Weeks 5 - 8*
*
Main Stack:*
Ultra Male Rx - 1 cap daily
Anabolic-Matrix Rx - 2 caps daily with food
Advanced Cycle Support Rx - 2 caps daily
E-Control Rx - 3 caps daily (last 3 weeks)
Test 500mg Weekly (twice a week... Mondays and Thursdays?)
Clomid 100/75mg/50/50
Black Lion Research Formeron - 1-2 
Liv52 (not sure daily dose required)

Additional Daily Supplements:
Creatine 5g x 2 daily
Glutamine 5g x 3 (with daily meals) and 10g x 1 post workout)
Leucine 5g x 2 daily (pre and post workout)
Arginine 5g x 2 daily (am and pm)
Multi-Vitamin 1x Daily (am)
Vitamin C 2-3g Daily

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please review that and see if that is on right path.  Just confused about those couple items
listed above.

Thank you in advance,

Johny B


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## Johnyb (Apr 24, 2012)

*Quick Acne Question*?

One other main question I forgot to ask was in regards to Acne. I've read various
posts from people using Super DMZ and getting acne.  If I also supplement with 
Acnedren would that help to eliminate getting any acne along with other daily
supps I listed above?

If so when would I start using. Right away? 2 Weeks in? 5th week (PCT)?

I am not one to get acne now but I am also not on or used any aas before so
hard to say what changes will occur after I start.  Really don't want to be full
of back bumps for summer time :

Johny B

*Note:*  Post above I forgot to remove the "E-Control Rx - 3 caps daily (last 3 weeks)" since Formeron and Clomid already in there.


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## Digitalash (Apr 24, 2012)

Hey bro I'm sorry your layout is confusing with all those supps haha. It seems you are taking clomid weeks 5-8 though? Is there a reason to limit this cycle to 8 weeks, if so we can work around that but 10 is pretty standard for a test E/C cycle.


All the liver supps and E control, cycle support etc. are entirely up to you so I will leave them out of this layout. IMO you will have no reason for E control since you're already using an aromatase inhibitor. Also if I'm correct ultra male is supposed to boost test production, which you will not be doing on cycle haha. It certainly is not going to prevent AAS induced shutdown. If you have another reason for it though that I'm unaware of by all means. Also yes formeron will dry you out some for your shoot, I have used it and am currently on a cruise dose of 250mg test a week and it works very well.


The cycle will be 10 weeks total from beginning to end. It takes a few weeks for a long ester like enan/cyp to kick in so this is a good and safe length. 

Weeks 1-10
test E, 250mg pinned Monday and 250mg thursday
formeron for on cycle AI, 1 pump a day should suffice fine

Weeks 1-4 oral kickstart
1 cap super dmz two times a day

Start clomid two weeks after your last injection, taking it while pinning test makes no sense as you can not begin recovery until the test clears your system. So your last pin falls on a thursday, wait two more thursdays and begin your clomid at 100mg a day week 1/75mg a day week 2 etc./50/50 (there are many different dosing protocols this is a fairly safe one though, opinions differ). Continue formeron all the way from day one of cycle to last day of pct. 


I'm sorry if I missed the reasoning for keeping it to 8 weeks but that really isn't ideal for a  long ester. If you wish to go that route though test prop may be better suited.

As for your fertility that shouldn't be an issue, your sperm count will be lower on cycle but should return to normal following pct. Low sperm count doesn't mean you can't have a kid just means it will take more attempts haha, once you're back to normal things will be fine though. 


Anything I missed let me know I think I covered it though?


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## xpop2027 (Nov 6, 2013)

Hey guys!

Running my cycle Monday, woop woop!

What are your thoughts on this stack? Is it over kill? This would include training mean, eating clean, and drinking loads of water!

*First four weeks**Super DMZ 2.0 2 caps daily - (1 cap AM - 1 cap PM)
Ultra Male RX - 1 cap daily
Anabolic matrix rx - 2 caps 2x a dayw/ food
advanced cycle support RX - 2 caps daily
After shower: AI black lion formeron - 1 pump daily
Glutamine - 2x
Leucine - 2x
Arginine 2x
Taurine 3x per day
Preworkout: NO Xplode
During workout: Amino 1
Post workout: Isopure MASS Protein + Taurine + Creatine (LOAD FIRST WEEK, MAINT. after)**

Last 4 weeks:
Ultra male RX -1 cap daily
Anabolic Matrix rx - 2 caps 2x a day w/ food
Advanced cycle support rx - 2 caps daily
e-control rx - 3 caps daily w meals
nolvadex 40/40/20/20
Glutamine - 2x
Leucine - 2x
Arginine 2x
Taurine 3x per day
Preworkout:NO Xplode
During workout:Amino 1
Post workout: Isopure MASS Protein + Taurine + creatine
after shower : AI black lion formeron - 2 pumps daily*


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## Johnyb (Nov 6, 2013)

xpop2027 said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> Running my cycle Monday, woop woop!
> 
> ...





I ended up taking some of the direction listed above. I added test base to this. I believe went something like 

Weeks 1-4 Test Prop 100mg EOD
Weeks 1-6 Test E 600mg weekly (m,t)
Weeks 7-8 Test E 800mg weekly (m,t)
Weeks 9-10 Test E 1000mg weekly (m,t)
Weeks 9-12 SuperDMZ 2.0 (1 am / 1 pm)
Weeks 1-12 Aromasin (12.5 to 25mg ED)

Cruise after on TRT dose

If not cruising you could finish like this:

Weeks 13-16 Clomid 75/50/50/50
Weeks 13-16 Nolva 40/40/20/20
Weeks 13-16 Aromasin (12.5mg ED)

I put on some solid gains with this and only lost about 5-7 lbs long after and maintained rest of 44 lbs added (yes was still newbie gains after a long cut and at my smallest before beginning)

I did find all went perfect but my body didn't like the DMZ as much as I wanted it to and quit it after 2.5 weeks.


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## Mike Arnold (Nov 6, 2013)

Super DMZ (Dimethazine & Methylstenbolone) is one bad-ass combination of steroids.  They are exremely potent and will result in hard, rapid gains in size & strength.

You do NOT need an AI when using Super DMZ, as so many others have stated.  If anything, a AI may further exacerbate side effects by excessively reducing estrogen.  Because Super DMZ is suppressive of natural test production (as all all steroids), there won't be as much testosterone available for conversion into estrogen.  Under normal circumstances, it would take a few weeks to reduce estrogen to deficient levels, but by adding an anti-estrogen, estrogen levels will drop immediately and remain there througout the entire ycle.  Having excessively low estrogen levels for weeks on end is likely to result in additional side effects, such as sexual dysfunction. 

As far as testosterone goes, most people prefer to use test with their orals, but it is not necessary when running very short cycles.  Many, many people have run 4 week DMZ cycles without experiencing symtoms associated with testosterone & estrogen deficiency.  This is likely because of the short cycle length, which doesn't give the body much time to react to reduced levels of these hormones.


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## Mike Arnold (Nov 6, 2013)

Johnyb said:


> I did find all went perfect but my body didn't like the DMZ as much as I wanted it to and quit it after 2.5 weeks.



What do you mean when you say your body didn't "like" the DMZ?  What effects do you attribute to DMZ that yo didn't like?


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## Johnyb (Nov 6, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> What do you mean when you say your body didn't "like" the DMZ?  What effects do you attribute to DMZ that yo didn't like?



After 2 weeks I had really bad strain on liver. I was using some liver supps but didn't seem to help plus was drinking min of a gallon a day of water or more while taking this to help with pain. After another 1/2 a week I said fuck it gonna stop the DMZ and see how I feel. Within 48-72 hours starting feeling great again yet nothing else was changed. I still have 3.5 bottles of it and will try again in future cycle.


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## xpop2027 (Nov 6, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> Super DMZ (Dimethazine & Methylstenbolone) is one bad-ass combination of steroids.  They are exremely potent and will result in hard, rapid gains in size & strength.
> 
> You do NOT need an AI when using Super DMZ, as so many others have stated.  If anything, a AI may further exacerbate side effects by excessively reducing estrogen.  Because Super DMZ is suppressive of natural test production (as all all steroids), there won't be as much testosterone available for conversion into estrogen.  Under normal circumstances, it would take a few weeks to reduce estrogen to deficient levels, but by adding an anti-estrogen, estrogen levels will drop immediately and remain there througout the entire ycle.  Having excessively low estrogen levels for weeks on end is likely to result in additional side effects, such as sexual dysfunction.
> 
> As far as testosterone goes, most people prefer to use test with their orals, but it is not necessary when running very short cycles.  Many, many people have run 4 week DMZ cycles without experiencing symtoms associated with testosterone & estrogen deficiency.  This is likely because of the short cycle length, which doesn't give the body much time to react to reduced levels of these hormones.




Thanks Mike,

So do you think I should run the AI for PCT or take it out all together? In regards to the Anabolic Matrix RX, the bottles says take 2 caps twice a day (4 total), but I have seen other in this forum state that they are taking only 2 caps a day (2 total)... which would you recommend? I have also seen people running e-control for the last two weeks of their PCT.. I set it up to run for the full PCT, thoughts? How about the 40/40/20/20 Nolva? Finally, any thoughts on running Ultra male RX + Anabolic Matrix rx throughout the full cycle and post?

Thanks again!


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## xpop2027 (Nov 6, 2013)

Johnyb said:


> I ended up taking some of the direction listed above. I added test base to this. I believe went something like
> 
> Weeks 1-4 Test Prop 100mg EOD
> Weeks 1-6 Test E 600mg weekly (m,t)
> ...




Dude AWESOME gains! I am going to run that cycle next.


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## Mike Arnold (Nov 7, 2013)

Johnyb said:


> After 2 weeks I had really bad strain on liver. I was using some liver supps but didn't seem to help plus was drinking min of a gallon a day of water or more while taking this to help with pain. After another 1/2 a week I said fuck it gonna stop the DMZ and see how I feel. Within 48-72 hours starting feeling great again yet nothing else was changed. I still have 3.5 bottles of it and will try again in future cycle.



How do you know?  Did you get bloodwork...or are you just guessing based on the way you felt?  Some people don't feel great taking certain kinds of orals, but this is not necessarily an indication of liver stress.


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## Johnyb (Nov 7, 2013)

xpop2027 said:


> Dude AWESOME gains! I am going to run that cycle next.



I forgot I ended up doing 20 week bulk there. The first 4 weeks was natural bulk and rest of gains from cycle.


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## Johnyb (Nov 7, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> How do you know?  Did you get bloodwork...or are you just guessing based on the way you felt?  Some people don't feel great taking certain kinds of orals, but this is not necessarily an indication of liver stress.



Yes went to doc and liver was messed. I couldn't lift or nothing anymore the pain was that bad. I was doubled over in pain daily. I wasn't drinking on cycle or anything to cause more undue harm.


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## Mike Arnold (Nov 10, 2013)

Johnyb said:


> Yes went to doc and liver was messed. I couldn't lift or nothing anymore the pain was that bad. I was doubled over in pain daily. I wasn't drinking on cycle or anything to cause more undue harm.



What were your numbers?  All orals will elevate liver enzymes...this is normal and does not necesarily signify "damage".  The liver is designed to accomodate toxins; this is its job.  As long as liver enzymes do not get too high for too long, all is fine.  In addition, and I am not trying to undermine or invalidate your experience by saying this, but the liver generally does not "hurt" just because enzymes are elevated.   Even those people who are expriencing full-blown liver failure generally dont feel liver "pain".   My guess is whatever you were feeling was caused by something else.  Lastly, if your liver enzymes had been elevated into a range considered dangerous by the medical establishment and actual damage was being done (which means it is something the liver couldn't deal with on its own) , you would have been hospitalized and subjected to various detoxification treatments.  Obviously, this did not take place.

The reason I have stringly quesioned your post is not to argue with you, but because posts like that give potentia customers the wrong idea about these products.  I am 100% convinced your liver enzymes were within what would be conidered a normal range for an oral steroid user.  It is not uncommon to see some people freaking out about liver readings considerd perfectly normal for an oral steroid user, especially when the coctor says something like "man, you've got to get off those steroids...your liver readings are through the roof"...or something similar.  Doctors will always overexagerate the dangers.  The fact you were released without undergoing any treatment whatsoever indicates you were in no danger.  Obviously, the liver could handle the steroids you were using.  This will be proven a few weeks from now when your liver enzymes return completely to normal.  Keep in mind that if you decide to use oral again in the future, this is how they work.


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## Mike Arnold (Nov 10, 2013)

xpop2027 said:


> Thanks Mike,
> 
> So do you think I should run the AI for PCT or take it out all together? In regards to the Anabolic Matrix RX, the bottles says take 2 caps twice a day (4 total), but I have seen other in this forum state that they are taking only 2 caps a day (2 total)... which would you recommend? I have also seen people running e-control for the last two weeks of their PCT.. I set it up to run for the full PCT, thoughts? How about the 40/40/20/20 Nolva? Finally, any thoughts on running Ultra male RX + Anabolic Matrix rx throughout the full cycle and post?
> 
> Thanks again!



Generally speaking, I don't think it is a good idea to use an AI right from the start of PCT if your estrogen level is already very low.  The whole point of using an AI during PCT is to help further increase test production by removing the inhibitory influence of estrogen, but if estrogen levels are already deficient, there won't be any estrogen-induced inhibition, negating the need for an AI at that time.

Now, as your PCT progresses, estrogen levels may rise to the point where a low-dose AI could be useful, but only bloodwork could tell you for sure.  

If estrogen levels are above normal at the start of PCT, then adding in an AI right off the bat is a good idea.


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