# Best dumbell curl for biceps?



## LittleKid (Nov 21, 2004)

Just wanna get some opinions


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## bulletproof1 (Nov 21, 2004)

why limit yourself to 1 type? all are excellent.


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## LittleKid (Nov 21, 2004)

bulletproof1 said:
			
		

> why limit yourself to 1 type? all are excellent.


Well I only go to the gym twice a week (mon and thurs) and I limit myself to 60-70 arm reps, and usually 25 of those are shoulder press.
So that means I have 35 reps for dumbells, and I think it would be better to just focus on one of the exercises.. But i'm an idiot, so correct me.


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## bulletproof1 (Nov 21, 2004)

just try all of them and see which ones you like best. if they all work well for you then just rotate them from workout to workout.


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## Stu (Nov 21, 2004)

i like concentration curls but ther not on the list


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## Mudge (Nov 21, 2004)

I like hammers and alternating dumbell curls, 35 reps is room for 4 sets.


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## CowPimp (Nov 21, 2004)

I really enjoy hammer curls.  However, I like compound pulling movements more than anything for my biceps.


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## shiek49 (Nov 22, 2004)

While were on bicep curls, i've got a question.  I've got good definition on the lower part of my bicep down toward my elbow, but I can't get the cut/definition I would like to have on the upper part of my bicep .  What bicep exercise would isolate that upper part and help with getting more definition?


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## ChrisROCK (Nov 22, 2004)

shiek49 said:
			
		

> While were on bicep curls, i've got a question. I've got good definition on the lower part of my bicep down toward my elbow, but I can't get the cut/definition I would like to have on the upper part of my bicep . What bicep exercise would isolate that upper part and help with getting more definition?


Work it from different angles then.  Vary your routine...  Try seated incline curls, again, at varying angles...  I've always felt that incline curls hit the top, shoulder tie-in of the bicep more so than any other exercise.


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## Johnnny (Nov 22, 2004)

There are 3 types of bicep curls that will build up your biceps.


Standing bicep curls with either a 45lb bar or db's or you can do seated db curls & even on an incline bench

standing, seated, & seated on an incline db hammer curls

ez bar or db preacer curls, & concentration curls


all of these are great for your biceps & should be rotated every 3-4 weeks to keep the biceps shocked.


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## GIZmo_Timme (Nov 22, 2004)

Cowpimp, your always talking about how you like to do pulling movements for biceps but i dont think that's good because it hits the lats more. Why dont you do more isolating exersises for you biceps? Do you think that your arms cant handle the stress?


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## Mudge (Nov 22, 2004)

Pull with the back, not that arms


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## Johnnny (Nov 22, 2004)

Just out of curiosity how do you work your biceps w/o doing back exercises?


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## Stu (Nov 22, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity how do you work your biceps w/o doing back exercises?



You use exercises that isolate the bicep


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## ChrisROCK (Nov 23, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity how do you work your biceps w/o doing back exercises?


DId you mean to type this?     Or did you mean, How do you work your BACK w/o doing biceps?


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## CowPimp (Nov 23, 2004)

GIZmo_Timme said:
			
		

> Cowpimp, your always talking about how you like to do pulling movements for biceps but i dont think that's good because it hits the lats more. Why dont you do more isolating exersises for you biceps? Do you think that your arms cant handle the stress?



My arms can handle the stress, and I do isolation type exercises periodically.  However, I don't feel it is absolutely necessary.  As well, when I do tricep exercises, they are usually heavily compound exercises that incorporate the chest, shoulders, and lats into the equation.  

The arm muscles are relatively tiny compared to the other muscles that we workout on a regular basis, yet people feel the need to work them to the same extent.  That is a ludicrous proposal in my opinion, especially considering all the peripheral work they get.  If you do isolation arm work, I feel it needs to be severely limited compared to the norm.

From my experience, my arms grow and strengthen the most if I incorporate them into very few, or even zero, isolation exercises.


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## Johnnny (Nov 23, 2004)

ChrisRock



> DId you mean to type this?     Or did you mean, How do you work your BACK w/o doing biceps?



Well Cowpimp says he likes to do pulling movements for biceps.

I don't see how you can work your biceps in pulling movements unless you're doing lat pulldown or cable row or some back exercises.

Which brings me to my next point how do you work your biceps w/o working your back?

The biceps are solely worked through various bicep curls. I've never heard of or seen bicep exercises done with pulling exercises which makes me wonder if he made it up?


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## DimebagDarrell (Nov 23, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> There are 3 types of bicep curls that will build up your biceps.
> 
> 
> Standing bicep curls with either a 45lb bar or db's or you can do seated db curls & even on an incline bench
> ...



what about overhand curls?  supine cable curls?  there's a lot more than just those curls that you can do.



			
				johnnny said:
			
		

> Well Cowpimp says he likes to do pulling movements for biceps.
> 
> I don't see how you can work your biceps in pulling movements unless you're doing lat pulldown or cable row or some back exercises.
> 
> ...



are you retarded?  of course biceps are recruited during back excercises.  try bent-over rows.  hella bicep involvement.  why would cowpimp make this up?  curls arent the sole recruiter of the bicep.  and how do you work your biceps w/o working your back?  what?


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## ChrisROCK (Nov 23, 2004)

DimebagDarrell said:
			
		

> are you retarded? of course biceps are recruited during back excercises. try bent-over rows. hella bicep involvement. why would cowpimp make this up? curls arent the sole recruiter of the bicep. and how do you work your biceps w/o working your back? what?


I give up, I'm thoroughly confused... as is Johnny apparently!


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## Duncans Donuts (Nov 23, 2004)

Palm up pulldowns are a pulling movement that works your biceps between the shoulder and elbow.  Mike Mentzer thought it was the best bicep movement because it worked the muscle between two joints.  

Johnnny, you do not need to rotate movements to "shock" your biceps.  You need to adjust reps or weight or frequency, but you don't have to neglect or select some in favor of others.



> I don't see how you can work your biceps in pulling movements



The biceps, if I'm not mistaken, pull the forearm toward the shoulder and supinate the palm.  Every bicep movement is a pull, isn't it?


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## Gazhole (Nov 23, 2004)

favourite bicep curl is probably concentration curl. if you do it with perfect form, near the end of the exercise it aches beautifully.


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## Johnnny (Nov 23, 2004)

DimebagDarrell



> are you retarded? of course biceps are recruited during back excercises. try bent-over rows. hella bicep involvement. why would cowpimp make this up? curls arent the sole recruiter of the bicep. and how do you work your biceps w/o working your back? what?



Really I didn't know that your biceps come greatly while doing back.   

Which is exactly why I don't do back or biceps the same day or on back to back days.

But you don't want to be trying to get a complete bicep workout from your back day. You want to get a bicep workout on bicep day.

What you're saying is that the back exercises are just as efficient for building the biceps as bicep exercises are?   

As for shocking your muscles, many bodybuilders & strength coaches will tell you to change your exercises every 3-4 weeks to keep them guessing.


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## ChrisROCK (Nov 23, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> What you're saying is that the back exercises are just as efficient for building the biceps as bicep exercises are?


 
I'm pretty sure nobody has said that specifically!  

Some back exercises are fantastic for hitting the bi's. ALL back exercises hit the bis...although you now seem to know this?!?


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## fUnc17 (Nov 23, 2004)

I prefer preacher curls standing up over an inclined bench


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## Stu (Nov 23, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> DimebagDarrell
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one of the new methods bein pushd around at present is that u should have no arms day at all rather you should organise your workouts by movement i.e

the workouts are split like so:

1)horizontal pushes: bench press, chest flyes

2)horizontal pulls: rows

3)vertical pushes: military press lateral raises etc

4)vertical pulls: pull ups, lateral pull downs etc

5)Quad dominants: squats, lunges

6)Hips dominants: dead lifts etc


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## Stu (Nov 23, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> DimebagDarrell
> What you're saying is that the back exercises are just as efficient for building the biceps as bicep exercises are?



no one has said this?


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## Du (Nov 23, 2004)

Barbell curls. Nothin beats them.


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## Johnnny (Nov 23, 2004)

ChrisRock



> Some back exercises are fantastic for hitting the bi's. ALL back
> exercises hit the bis...although you now seem to know this?!?



It's called sarcasm dude. What do you think the   was for?

I've never trained biceps & back on the same day b/c of this reason which I knew a long time ago.


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## ChrisROCK (Nov 23, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> ChrisRock
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Actually...i was referring to this comment...

"What you're saying is that the back exercises are just as efficient for building the biceps as bicep exercises are?  "

No sarcasm face there!    relax homey!


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## Johnnny (Nov 23, 2004)

ChrisRock



> "What you're saying is that the back exercises are just as efficient for building the biceps as bicep exercises are?  "



Just more sarcasm.


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## CowPimp (Nov 23, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Well Cowpimp says he likes to do pulling movements for biceps.
> 
> I don't see how you can work your biceps in pulling movements unless you're doing lat pulldown or cable row or some back exercises.
> 
> ...



Rows and pulldowns are both pulling movements.  Think about it.  I am referring to back exercises which involve pulling motions: pullups, pulldown, and rows of various forms.


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## CowPimp (Nov 23, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> What you're saying is that the back exercises are just as efficient for building the biceps as bicep exercises are?



Yes, they can be.  Just like how the close grip bench press is excellent at increasing strength and mass in your triceps.  This is a compound push movement.  Close grip chinups are a compound pull movement that requires a lot of bicep recruitment.

You're opening up a huge can of worms here: Are compound or isolation movements better?  I like compound movements better, but you can do 9 sets of various curls if you want.

As I said before, isolation movements have their place, but I find it silly to do just as many sets for a muscle group as small as the biceps as you do for a muscle group like the chest, shoulders, or quadriceps.


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## Duncans Donuts (Nov 24, 2004)

Weighted  (palm up) Chinups offer the same benefit of any curl, in my opinion...my bodyweight plus the poundage hanging around my waist is enough all week for my biceps.


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## Johnnny (Nov 24, 2004)

CowPimp



> Rows and pulldowns are both pulling movements.  Think about it.  I am referring to back exercises which involve pulling motions: pullups,
> pulldown, and rows of various forms.



Yes they are excellent "Back" exercises as you say so you shouldn't be counting on them to build your biceps.


Duncans Donuts



> Weighted (palm up) Chinups offer the same benefit of any curl, in my opinion...my bodyweight plus the poundage hanging around my waist is enough all week for my biceps.



True, but when many ppl reach a certain body weight, chins become difficult.

There are many 210 & 230+lb guys who won't do any form of chins b/c of the strain it puts on your biceps & inner elbows.

There are many other bicep exercises that will build the bi's much greater than chins using the biceps such as standing barbell curls or DB curls, standing, seated or incline hammer curls, preacher or concentration curls, & various cable curls are much better IMO to build the biceps.

As for wide grip chins for back, there are many other back exercises that will build up the back just as well if not much better such as Dorian Yate's style barbell rows, wide grip cable rows, & wide grip T-Bar Rows & so on.


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## CowPimp (Nov 24, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> CowPimp
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Look, as I said, you can do all the isolation exercises you want.  I'm just saying that I see plenty of progress without them.


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## Johnnny (Nov 24, 2004)

CowPimp



> Look, as I said, you can do all the isolation exercises you want.  I'm
> just saying that I see plenty of progress without them.



So you think that Arnold built his biceps with just doing back exercises & no standard bicep exercises & of course the obvious the help of his steroids?

Let me ask you this what is your ideal bicep routine?

Chin ups, barbell rows & T-Bar rows?


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## Tha Don (Nov 24, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> DimebagDarrell
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your biceps can still get a solid workout on back day, which is the reason why training back and biceps on the same day makes a lot of sense!


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## Tha Don (Nov 24, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Let me ask you this what is your ideal bicep routine?
> 
> Chin ups, barbell rows & T-Bar rows?



stick some barbell curls on the end and thats a great workout for adding mass to you back and BICEPS

stop being so narrow minded man! there is no right or wrong way to do things different techniques will work for different individuals, what worked for arnie will not necessarily work for 99% of the genetically average population, if it did then everyone would be working out for 4 hours a day 6 days a week! c'mon drop the bullshit


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## Tha Don (Nov 24, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Yes, they can be.  Just like how the close grip bench press is excellent at increasing strength and mass in your triceps.  This is a compound push movement.  Close grip chinups are a compound pull movement that requires a lot of bicep recruitment.
> 
> You're opening up a huge can of worms here: Are compound or isolation movements better?  I like compound movements better, but you can do 9 sets of various curls if you want.
> 
> As I said before, isolation movements have their place, but I find it silly to do just as many sets for a muscle group as small as the biceps as you do for a muscle group like the chest, shoulders, or quadriceps.



not saying that i disagree with you, but i find isolation exercises very useful as i have long thin muscles (ecto frame) and i need to throw in a couple of isolation movements at the end of my workout as i can use full ROM and get a really good stretch and squeeze in my muscle (the mind muscle technique works great for isolation movements, which is another technique i swear by)

thing is cowpimp has what works for him and thats cool, i have what works for me and thats cool... we don't bitch over every little minute detail and try to be mr. know it all like johnny

seriously your arrogance gets annoying man!


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## dbolman (Nov 24, 2004)

The question in general is whether compound or isolation, or both, is best for any muscle, not just bis. Maybe some muscles repond better to different techniques-isolation for some, compound for others.

Nothing better for thighs than compound-squats, leg presses, IMO.

For tris, CGB does nothing for me, isolation exercises much better.


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## CowPimp (Nov 24, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> CowPimp
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What does Arnold have to do with anything?  I don't care what Arnold did.  His training methods have no bearing on a totally natural lifter.

Stop arguing with me.  I said you can do what you want.  I even said isolation exercises have their place.  I just think it's silly when people use the same amount of volume with isolation bicep exercises as they do with much larger muscle groups.  It doesn't make any sense.  If you are going to do isolation exercises, just make sure you are careful with your volume because your biceps take quite a beating in most back exercises.


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## Johnnny (Nov 24, 2004)

Young d



> you biceps can still get a solid workout on back day, which is a reason why training back and biceps on the same day makes a lot of sense!



No offense but this is a big no no.

By the time you finish with your back, due to all the rowing & pulling exercises, your biceps will certainly not be fresh & you won't be able to lift to your potential which you always need to help cause growth as lifting heavy & properly puts on size no matter the muscle.

Any time you put targeted pressure on that muscle, it will grow.


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## Duncans Donuts (Nov 24, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Young d
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> No offense but this is a big no no.



Wrong


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## CowPimp (Nov 24, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Young d
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with lifting back and biceps together.  Plenty of respectable training protocols use this type of split.  There is more than one way to train successfully.

As well, any time you put targeted pressure on a muscle, it will not necessarily grow.  There are a lot of factors involved that determine whether or not hypertrophy will occur.


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## MTN WARRIOR (Nov 25, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> CowPimp
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Dude, WTF.  Cowpimp is saying what works for him, and to do what you choose.  He isn't going off on any tangent.  WTF does Arnold have to do with it.  That made no sense dragging him into it.  Shut the fuck up.


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## MTN WARRIOR (Nov 25, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Young d
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Lift to your potential, who cares.  Muscle growth is based on time under tension.  Whatever tension that you provide that is "shocking it" or overstressing it will help generate growth.  If it is already exhausted from back work, it will be easier to push it past its limits.  Who cares what number is written on the side of the DB, bonehead.  God gave you 2 ears and only one mouth for  a reason.  Use it.


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## Johnnny (Nov 25, 2004)

Duncans Donuts



> Wrong



If that's soooo wrong than why do the majority of the ppl complain that they have weak biceps after they just finished a 50min back workout & to their surprise the times that they have trained biceps away from their back day, their biceps are much stronger?

It makes perfect sense. Your biceps get burnt out from all the rowing & pulling exercises for the back so that by the time you start your biceps, you've already strained them

I used to do this when I was 18yrs old & since I stopped when I was 20yrs old my bicep workouts were always much better, stronger & the biceps got much more pumped.

Most bodybuilders natural & steroid enhanced will tell not to train biceps & back on the same day or on back to back days.


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## Duncans Donuts (Nov 25, 2004)

Johnnny, when I do weighted chin ups, including my bodyweight, my biceps are involved in moving about 300 pounds.  That is more than enough to stimulate growth...


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## Johnnny (Nov 25, 2004)

Duncans Donust



> Johnnny, when I do weighted chin ups, including my bodyweight, my biceps are involved in moving about 300 pounds. That is more than enough to stimulate growth...



I guess narrow reverse grip chin ups okay for building the biceps, but I wouldn't replace bicep exercises for this exercise.

It sounds like you have something against a regular bicep routine.

Many natural & steroid enhanced bodybuilders will also tell you that either form of chin ups aren't always worth doing.

I don't see many big body builders (steroids or not) doing chin ups. Nor do I see power lifters & wrestlers doing chin ups either form, wide or reverse narrow grip.


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## CowPimp (Nov 25, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> If that's soooo wrong than why do the majority of the ppl complain that they have weak biceps after they just finished a 50min back workout & to their surprise the times that they have trained biceps away from their back day, their biceps are much stronger?
> 
> It makes perfect sense. Your biceps get burnt out from all the rowing & pulling exercises for the back so that by the time you start your biceps, you've already strained them
> 
> ...



Obviously your biceps are going to be weaker after you are finished with your back, but they were just used to their full potential on your back exercises, so it is unnecessary.

Most bodybuilders will not tell you that.  Stop making things up.  Plenty of bodybuilders: professional, non-competitive, juiced, and natural support a synergistic split.  Yes, a lot of people also prefer an antagonistic split, but there is plenty of support in both camps.

I never said there is anything wrong with an antagonistic split.  It is perfectly fine.  However, there is also nothing wrong with a synergistic split.  Both splits are viable, period.


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## Duncans Donuts (Nov 25, 2004)

I don't care what a bodybuilder would tell me, honestly.  Placing the bicep into a strongest position doing chinups is fantastic for your biceps.

I haven nothing against a regular bicep routine, I do one set of either concentrated curls or straight barbell curls in addition to weighted chins once or twice a week.  I dont' do more because if I did, I'd be overtrained.


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## CowPimp (Nov 25, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Duncans Donust
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There are plenty of bodybuilders who do chinups and pullups.  Don't just make things up.  One very large bodybuilder on this site that I can think of off the top of my head is Chris Mason.

Wrestlers do plenty of chinups, actually.  I used to be on a wrestling team, and I have known plenty of people on various wrestling teams.  Multiple people I knew placed high in state competitions.  Just about all of them do chinups.

It is true that powerlifting routines don't often call for chinups.  However, this has nothing to do with the ineffectiveness of the exercise.  It has to do with the transmutation of training benefits.  You see, the bench press is on the same plane of motion as rowing motions, not chinups.  So, the transmutation of training effect from rows to the bench press is much greater.  It has nothing to do with hypertrophy or lack of conditioning effects.


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## CowPimp (Nov 25, 2004)

Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> I don't care what a bodybuilder would tell me, honestly.  Placing the bicep into a strongest position doing chinups is fantastic for your biceps.
> 
> I haven nothing against a regular bicep routine, I do one set of either concentrated curls or straight barbell curls in addition to weighted chins once or twice a week.  I dont' do more because if I did, I'd be overtrained.



Exactly!  Isolation bicep movements are fine, but most people just get ridiculous with the volume they use.


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## Tha Don (Nov 25, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Duncans Donust
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just shut up man! that statement is ridiculous... plenty of big guys do chin-ups, duncan just said he dose chin's n' he is 300lbs... then you go n' reply with a silly statement like no big guys do chin-ups.. when you know there are plenty of big guys that do chins with good results


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## Tha Don (Nov 25, 2004)

MTN WARRIOR said:
			
		

> Lift to your potential, who cares.  Muscle growth is based on time under tension.  Whatever tension that you provide that is "shocking it" or overstressing it will help generate growth.  If it is already exhausted from back work, it will be easier to push it past its limits.  Who cares what number is written on the side of the DB, bonehead.  God gave you 2 ears and only one mouth for  a reason.  Use it.



well said man!


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## Johnnny (Nov 25, 2004)

young d



> just shut up man! that statement is ridiculous... plenty of big guys do chin-ups, duncan just said he dose chin's n' he is 300lbs... then you go n' reply with a silly statement like no big guys do chin-ups.. when you know there are plenty of big guys that do chins with good results



Man you don't know what is going on.

Duncans is not 300lbs he is around 230lbs. He said he uses 300lbs for reverse narrow grip chin ups.

Quote from Duncans which states he uses 300lbs for reverse narrow grip chins



> Johnnny, when I do weighted chin ups, including my bodyweight, my biceps are involved in moving about 300 pounds. That is more than enough to stimulate growth...



As for wrestlers I have happen to have met, had conversations with, & trained a tiny bit with the following ppl, RVD, Shelton Benjamin, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Ray Mysterio, & John Cena. As the wrestlers always come to my gym when they're in Montreal.

They rarely do chin ups of any kind & they strictly follow regular bicep routine & don't rely on barbell rows or other back exercises to build their biceps.

They have good training adivce (other than just taking steroids)

Chris Benoit gave me an example of one of his favorite routines, & to my surprise it was very similar to one of my football routines.


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## Rocco32 (Nov 25, 2004)

You are soooooooooo full of shit Johnnny! I doubt you even work out at all, much less train with wrestlers! I agree 100% with DD and young D on this. As do other BB's.


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## Johnnny (Nov 25, 2004)

rock4832



> You are soooooooooo full of shit Johnnny! I doubt you even work out at all, much less train with wrestlers! I agree 100% with DD and young D
> on this. As do other BB's.



Man all I can say is that you are sooo full of shit that it's coming out of your mouth.

I said that I have trained a tiny bit with some of the WWE wrestlers meaning once or twice over the last couple of years since I joined this gym as they always come to this gym when in Montreal.

As for your comment about me not training, just BS from someone with nothing else better to say. You really sound stupid with this comment.


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## Rocco32 (Nov 25, 2004)

Now how am I full of shit?!? I don't go around claiming all these outrageous things with absolutely no proof to back them up. And as for your training, put up some pics! Join the IM Comp! You've lost any credibility (not that you ever had any) since you won't step up to the plate. So take your bullshit advice and ram it up your ass!


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## CowPimp (Nov 25, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> As for wrestlers I have happen to have met, had conversations with, & trained a tiny bit with the following ppl, RVD, Shelton Benjamin, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Ray Mysterio, & John Cena. As the wrestlers always come to my gym when they're in Montreal.
> 
> They rarely do chin ups of any kind & they strictly follow regular bicep routine & don't rely on barbell rows or other back exercises to build their biceps.
> 
> ...



Now I know you're full of shit.  Why is it that every time there is a discrepancy involving you, you claim that your gym is some magical place that attracts all kinds of professional athletes and/or regular gym goers that could probably compete professionally?  Give me a break.  You then proceed to make up information about their training routines.  You need to learn more about training for sports before you make up BS about professional athlete's training routines.  At least make your lies believable.

Wrestling training hardly incorporates direct bicep training like that.  That is just stupid.  Wrestling training is not like bodybuilder training.  They need speed, explosive power, flexibility, stamina, and they need to maintain a weight class.  They're not worried about how big the peaks of their biceps are.  They don't want to gain mass unless they are a heavyweight, or they are trying to compete in a higher weight class.  Even then, direct bicep work, although it may be used sparingly, is going to be a waste of their time compared to cleans, snatches, squats, deadlifts, bench presses, rows, and other heavily compound exercises.

Beyond this, wrestlers do a lot of bodyweight training.  Stamina and muscular endurance is a huge part of wrestling.  Those 6 minutes are the most intense 6 minutes you will ever endure if you go up against someone that is closely matched to you.


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## Rocco32 (Nov 25, 2004)

Hey cowpimp, you live close to me!


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## CowPimp (Nov 25, 2004)

rock4832 said:
			
		

> Hey cowpimp, you live close to me!



Oh yeah, where are you located?


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## Johnnny (Nov 25, 2004)

rock4832



> Now how am I full of shit?!? I don't go around claiming all these outrageous things with absolutely no proof to back them up. And as for your training, put up some pics! Join the IM Comp! You've lost any credibility (not that you ever had any) since you won't step up to the plate. So take your bullshit advice and ram it up your ass!



Personally I really don't give a rat's ass what you believe. All you have to do is check the WWE travel schedule & look when their Montreal date is & come to my gym the morning after Monday Night Raw or on Wednesday morning the day after they film Smack Down & you will see all the wrestlers in my gym.

& they talk to the regular members there a lot.

As for my pics they will be coming soon as I've already said, I've been a bit held back b/c of my finally fixed thyroid condition.

I have not lied about anything I've said. 

& since you asked, yes you are full of shit.


CowPimp



> Now I know you're full of shit.  Why is it that every time there is a
> discrepancy involving you, you claim that your gym is some magical place
> that attracts all kinds of professional athletes and/or regular gym
> goers that could probably compete professionally?  Give me a break.  You
> ...



Then why is it that all of them were doing a bicep routine that involved barbell curls & concentration curls?


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 25, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, where are you located?


Arlington, VA. My wife was just doing a play in Silver Spring, one of the Churches there.


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 25, 2004)

What a sad life you lead Johnnny.   Seriously, you should stop giving crappy advice and talking about things you don't understand!


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 25, 2004)

All I am going to say to this ridiculous thread (not made ridiculous by me) is just do a fn' complete bicep routine once or twice a week & your arms will grow.   

Pretty crazy analogy eh?   

Next it will be written that your calves will grow from doing chest exercises  

rock4832



> What a sad life you lead Johnnny.  Seriously, you should stop giving crappy advice and talking about things you don't understand?



You should stop being a smart ass.

As for my life, it's far, far from sad. It's actually very busy & enjoyable.

Personally telling someone to do a regular bicep routine is by far crappy advice.

Telling someone their biceps will grow from doing solely barbell rows & other back exercises is sh!tty advice.

It's not hard to understand. Isolate your biceps with bicep exercises & your biceps grow.


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 25, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> rock4832
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh, you're talking about that bullshit WWE wrestling where they basically get paid to act?  Bahahaha!  I'm talking about olympic wrestling buddy.  Those wrestlers are basically just bodybuilders who perform live.  Guess what?  A lot of them are on steroids too, so they can train their biceps a lot directly and recover a lot faster than a natural lifter.

I love how you respond to my huge statement with that sentence that basically repeats what you said the first time.  You offer no more proof, anecdotal or not, and just continue to banter on.

Now, I will say this one more time.  Maybe you will understand if I do this:

There is nothing wrong with doing some direct bicep work.  However, the bicep is comprised of two small muscles.  They do not require very much isolation work.  As well, it is not absolutely, 100% neccessary to do isolation work to see size or strength gains.


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 25, 2004)

rock4832 said:
			
		

> Arlington, VA. My wife was just doing a play in Silver Spring, one of the Churches there.



That's cool.  I go pretty close to there when I work.  I work for Independence Air at Dulles Airport.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 25, 2004)

Cowpimp



> Oh, you're talking about that bullshit WWE wrestling where they basically get paid to act? Bahahaha! I'm talking about olympic wrestling buddy.



Um I used to do UFC style wrestling myself for about 3yrs & on our training routine, a full bicep routine at least once a week was always included.


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 25, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Cowpimp
> 
> 
> 
> Um I used to do UFC style wrestling myself for about 3yrs & on our training routine, a full bicep routine at least once a week was always included.


Bullshit!


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 25, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> That's cool.  I go pretty close to there when I work.  I work for Independence Air at Dulles Airport.


OK, cool. I work pretty close to there too. I'm off of Rt. 28 at a Lockheed Martin building.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 25, 2004)

rock4832



> Bullshit!



Sorry dude it's all true.

What you don't believe me that I did UFC type wrestling for 3yrs?

Or you don't believe me that they always included a full bicep routine in our training programs?

Or do you simply not believe me about both?

You are really sad man.


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 25, 2004)

The most important item for a muscle to grow, in the training department, is for it to be required to forcefully contract again some sort of resistance.  Whether it is one of many muscles working or the only muscle working really makes no difference.  Your biceps have to do a lot of work when you are rowing a few hundred pounds, whether other muscles are involved or not.


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 25, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Cowpimp
> 
> 
> 
> Um I used to do UFC style wrestling myself for about 3yrs & on our training routine, a full bicep routine at least once a week was always included.



There is no such thing as UFC style wrestling.  You choose what fighting style you would like to use in UFC.  You just keep burying yourself deeper in your ignorance.


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 25, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> There is no such thing as UFC style wrestling.  You choose what fighting style you would like to use in UFC.  You just keep burying yourself deeper in your ignorance.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 25, 2004)

CowPimp



> There is no such thing as UFC style wrestling.  You choose what
> fighting style you would like to use in UFC.  You just keep burying yourself
> deeper in your ignorance.



If you want to be that specific I did SAMBO which is Russian & was used by the military for many years.

http://members.tripod.com/stratfordsombo/articles/history-2.html

So there


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 25, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> The most important item for a muscle to grow, in the training department, is for it to be required to forcefully contract again some sort of resistance.  Whether it is one of many muscles working or the only muscle working really makes no difference.  Your biceps have to do a lot of work when you are rowing a few hundred pounds, whether other muscles are involved or not.


Exactly. Direct Bicep work is not required to build quality biceps. As DD said, one of the best for biceps palms up pull-ups or pulldowns.


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 25, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> CowPimp
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bullshit. See, when called bullshit, johnnny can always come up with more lies.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 25, 2004)

rock4832



> Exactly. Direct Bicep work is not required to build quality biceps. As DD said, one of the best for biceps palms up pull-ups or pulldowns.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 25, 2004)

rock4832



> Bullshit. See, when called bullshit, johnnny can always come up with more lies.



No lies that was the name of the style that I chose.

I tried some Brazillian Jujitsu first but I became intrigued more with Sambo I guess for the fact that the instructor offered free boxing lessons as well.


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 25, 2004)

Oh, so now martial arts training requires direct bicep work?  God you are so full of shit.  Martial arts training rarely even involes heavy resistance exercises.


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 25, 2004)

Look Johnnny, you can't have it both ways.  You say that you shouldn't train the back and biceps together because your biceps are hit hard enough with back exercises so that they are fatigued by the time you would do isolation bicep work.  Yet, you say that compound back exercises involving the biceps don't exhibit enough stress on the muscle to induce a comparable amount of hypertrophy or strength increases.  Which one is it?


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 25, 2004)

CowPimp



> Oh, so now martial arts training requires direct bicep work?  God you
> are so full of shit.  Martial arts training rarely even involes heavy
> resistance exercises.



Our instructor felt it was benefitial to do complete upper & lower body workouts including bicep movements



> Look Johnnny, you can't have it both ways. You say that you shouldn't train the back and biceps together because your biceps are hit hard enough with back exercises so that they are fatigued by the time you would do isolation bicep work. Yet, you say that compound back exercises involving the biceps don't exhibit enough stress on the muscle to induce a comparable amount of hypertrophy or strength increases. Which one is it?



Yes I do agree that back exercises have a hypertrophy effect on the arms which is why you shouldn't train them on the same day or back to back days to have an efficient bicep routine.

But what the point is an individual should not expect their biceps to grow to their maximum potential by only performing back exercises.

An individual also needs to do a bicep routine to make their biceps grow to their potential.

This is the point.

There's no both ways here. Just stating the fact.

If I never did biceps & just relied on my back exercises to build my arms my arms would not be what they are nor would I be barbell curling 125-130lbs.


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 25, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> If I never did biceps & just relied on my back exercises to build my arms my arms would not be what they are nor would I be barbell curling 125-130lbs.


Bullshit


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 25, 2004)

Wow.



> Duncans is not 300lbs he is around 230lbs. He said he uses 300lbs for reverse narrow grip chin ups.



I do regular chin ups, not close grip, with about 300 pounds including bw.  I consider placing the biceps in a weakened position during a chin up completely ridiculous (personally), so the only chin I've ever done is supinated.

But regardless, I don't know why a big person would not do chin ups...many people consider it to be one of the top 5 movements you can perform.  After Deadlifts, Squats, Bench and Military presses, I'd take chin ups over any other exercise..

The argument your making is simply that you've heard a lot of big guys don't do them.  That's not true.  I know lots of guys who are massive that do them.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 25, 2004)

Johnnny, how would working your biceps indireclty on back day and then again harder at a later time in the week be good for your biceps?  There is no way that such a small muscle group can handle the same kind of progress or volume as, say, the lats or the legs.  Come on...


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 25, 2004)

> Next it will be written that your calves will grow from doing chest exercises



This juxtaposition is ludicrous at best.  The reason that certain back exercises hit the biceps is because the lats work in moving the arms.  The bicep is one of many "weak links" in back routines.



> Telling someone their biceps will grow from doing solely barbell rows & other back exercises is sh!tty advice.



No, it is not shitty advice.  Considering that very few people have big arms, and most people do ridiculous amounts of volume more than two or three times a week on their biceps, I would consider your advice (which is aligned with what most of these people do) to be the kind not well taken...volume for the arms can be DETRIMENTAL if taken to extremes.


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 25, 2004)

Preach it DD!


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 25, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> CowPimp
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How many times do I have to repeat myself?  Seriously.  I'm not sure you actually comprehend what you read.  I said that your version of a bicep routine is fine.  All I said was the volume of this routine should be much lower than that of larger bodyparts.  The reason for this is because the biceps are heavily targeted already with compound pulling movements.

Now, I did say that a bicep routine involving isolation exercises is not neccessary.  You don't have to believe me, but it works for me.  Others can try it, and I hope it works for them.  If it doesn't, then they can continue with as much isolation work as they need.

You find a man that can do supinated chinups with two plates dangling between their legs, and I will show you a man with large and strong biceps.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 26, 2004)

rock4832



> Bullshit



Personally I think you are always saying this phrase b/c you have a very limited vocabulary & are uneducated



> If I never did biceps & just relied on my back exercises to build my arms my arms would not be what they are nor would I be barbell curling 125-130lbs.



But this is the truth. Just b/c you can't curl 125lbs doesn't mean that nobody can.

I have been training since I was 15yrs old & for the 1st 5yrs was training for size/power for football.

& with all the trouble that my Hyper thyroid condition then converted to hypo thyroid due to an alteration in my treatment last year I'm still managing to get my body half  way back to what it was.


Let me gues rock, you will say bullshit to all of this right?

Like I said limited vocabulary & uneducated  

CowPimp



> How many times do I have to repeat myself? Seriously. I'm not sure you actually comprehend what you read. I said that your version of a bicep routine is fine. All I said was the volume of this routine should be much lower than that of larger bodyparts. The reason for this is because the biceps are heavily targeted already with compound pulling movements.



I think 6-9 sets maximum for biceps is just fine

Duncans Donuts



> This juxtaposition is ludicrous at best. The reason that certain back exercises hit the biceps is because the lats work in moving the arms. The bicep is one of many "weak links" in back routines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## KarlW (Nov 26, 2004)

Originally posted by *Johnnny*



> _Telling someone their biceps will grow from doing solely barbell rows & other back exercises is sh!tty advice_.


\

H.....e......l......l......o    You have no idea what you are talking about.

You stick to your beliefs if that makes you happy.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 26, 2004)

Johnnny, are we going down that path again?  Everyone disagrees with you and somehow you are apt to insult me..



> To me it just sounds like ppl don't want to take the time to do a complete bicep routine.



That sounds like you're calling me lazy, J.


----------



## Randy (Nov 26, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity how do you work your biceps w/o doing back exercises?


Just like this guy Johnnny


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 26, 2004)

Hey Johnnny- Bullshit!


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 26, 2004)

rock4832



> Hey Johnnny- Bullshit!



You really are proving yourself to be uneducated & to have a limited vocabulary.

Randy that's a funny pic. 

I guess some of these guys don't mind looking like that LOL 

I'm going to stick with what I know. Next week I'm going to  try a 145lb barbell curl.

Maybe one day rock4832 will realize the importance of doing a regular bicep routine.

Duncans Donuts



> That sounds like you're calling me lazy, J.



You can take however you like it.


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 26, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> rock4832
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe one day Johnnny, aka bullshiter, will stop lying about everything, learn how to read and comprehend and make informed decisions for himself. But who knows...


----------



## Pumpster (Nov 26, 2004)

I'm not a believer in compounds. For bis, back work will just warm them up well 'cause i'm not going to choose exercises that put them into anything other than secondary roles; no CG chins. Many like compounds like CGBs, I never use em and think they're hard on the joints. 

The idea that small muscles can't handle as much is just another theory, since calves can handle about as much work as any muscle.


----------



## LittleKid (Nov 26, 2004)

What turned out to be an innocent thread, turned into people wanting to choke the other person till he suffocates.


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 26, 2004)

LittleKid said:
			
		

> What turned out to be an innocent thread, turned into people wanting to choke the other person till he suffocates.


Just Johnnny, we don't like him


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 26, 2004)

Pumpster said:
			
		

> Close grip chins are excellent for bis, but there's NO way that this is good enough for everyone, since the effect varies from one person to the next. Many on this site like a compound like CGBs, I think they blow and are hard on the joints.
> 
> Bis aren't necessary burnt out from back exercises, they're hit only indirectly on many of them obviously, and the idea that small muscles can't handle it makes no sense to me-calves are small muscles yet can take a sh-- load of work.


First off, effect does not vary from person to person. It may *hurt* some people with injuries but the muscle gets worked the same for everybody.

And yes Bi's are burnt out from back exercises. What do you think gives out while working back?!? Bi's or back- bi's of course.


----------



## Pumpster (Nov 26, 2004)

Then you're doin' them wrong. If you're doing back exercises the right way, the burn and failure's happening in your back; if it isn't it's time to change your workout. I barely notice biceps while training back, 'cause i've experimented and found exercises that hit the back; looks like you have some work and thought ahead of you.

If you didn't know until now that exercises affect people differently, welcome to reality. We're different heights, different ratios, etc.


----------



## Randy (Nov 26, 2004)

Discussing workout routines in this forum anymore is like talking about religion or politics


----------



## Pumpster (Nov 26, 2004)

Amen.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 26, 2004)

> Then you're doin' them wrong. If you're doing back exercises the right way, the burn and failure's happening in your back; if it isn't it's time to change your workout. I barely notice biceps while training back, 'cause i've experimented and found exercises that hit the back; looks like you have some work and thought ahead of you.



Nonsense.

The only way to hit the lats without hitting the weak link of the biceps is to transfer the motion directly through the elbow.  As far as I know, very few machines are capable of this.

As far as deadlifts are concerned, the forearms go out well before the back does..


----------



## KarlW (Nov 26, 2004)

> I barely notice biceps while training back 'cause i've experimented and found exercises that hit the back;



Just because they don't burn doesn't mean they haven't failed first.
what exercises do you do for back?


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 26, 2004)

Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> Nonsense.
> 
> The only way to hit the lats without hitting the weak link of the biceps is to transfer the motion directly through the elbow.  As far as I know, very few machines are capable of this.
> 
> As far as deadlifts are concerned, the forearms go out well before the back does..


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 26, 2004)

Pumpster said:
			
		

> Then you're doin' them wrong. If you're doing back exercises the right way, the burn and failure's happening in your back; if it isn't it's time to change your workout. I barely notice biceps while training back, 'cause i've experimented and found exercises that hit the back; looks like you have some work and thought ahead of you.
> 
> If you didn't know until now that exercises affect people differently, welcome to reality. We're different heights, different ratios, etc.


 DD and Karl already responded to the first part of your post so I'll just respond to the second. A muscle is a muscle is a muscle.... Everyone's muscles contract and work the same. Same physiology down the line for growing muscles. It doesn't vary per person. It's the identy principle. High reps work for some but not others and crap like that is false. Everyone's muscles work the same.


----------



## LittleKid (Nov 26, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> Discussing workout routines in this forum anymore is like talking about religion or politics


 I think biceps is a very touchy subject.


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 26, 2004)

LittleKid said:
			
		

> I think biceps is a very touchy subject.


So is upper chest.


----------



## KarlW (Nov 26, 2004)

They are the important 'showy' muscles through the eyes of the inexperienced, uneductaed masses, that is why.


----------



## Randy (Nov 26, 2004)

LittleKid said:
			
		

> I think biceps is a very touchy subject.


Let see what was Princes philosophy on this matter...  Oh Yes,  "Nobody here most likely has 20 inch biceps, so who the F cares about all this techno mumbo jumbo, just do curls!"     I think it was somewhere on those lines.


----------



## KarlW (Nov 26, 2004)

Randy that your pooch? he/she? Staffy?


----------



## Randy (Nov 26, 2004)

If you're referring to my avatar....naw, that one is not mine.
Pretty kewl dawg though, wouldn't mind having one like that 
But I already have a spoiled one of my own.


----------



## Cold Iron (Nov 26, 2004)

Pumpster said:
			
		

> Then you're doin' them wrong. If you're doing back exercises the right way, the burn and failure's happening in your back; if it isn't it's time to change your workout. I barely notice biceps while training back, 'cause i've experimented and found exercises that hit the back; looks like you have some work and thought ahead of you.
> 
> If you didn't know until now that exercises affect people differently, welcome to reality. We're different heights, different ratios, etc.



Hi Johnnny


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 26, 2004)

Arnie's left nu said:
			
		

> Hi Johnnny


Good call! That is EXACTLY the way Johnnny talks and how about that timing?!? Just join and your first post is in this thread, LOL.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 26, 2004)

rock4832



> Maybe one day Johnnny, aka bullshiter, will stop lying about
> everything, learn how to read and comprehend and make informed decisions for himself. But who knows...



Not to my surprise you continue to be your uneducated self.

But you accuse me of lies, I only speak the truth.

Truly sad dude, maybe one day you will get a life.


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 26, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> rock4832
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is this Pumpster or Johnnny?!? LOL. Dude, you have got to get a life!!!


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 26, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> I think 6-9 sets maximum for biceps is just fine



I think you should consider trying less volume.  I have done bicep routines with that level of volume in the past, and it was less effective than below that.  Some people can probably handle that amount of volume, but I tend to train to faluire on a good portion of my working sets.




> Let me guess you're the only one who has big arms right?



I like how you put words in his mouth.




> My bicep routine will not cause over training & it is the perfect routine that many ppl for many, many years have been using.



Oh, many people use it.  Great.  That doesn't prove anything.  Many people also totally stagnate in their gains, many people have small arms, and many people lift based on very little solid knowledge.




> 3 different bicep exercises to hit the muscle from all angles.



Do you even know what that means?  Muscles don't know angles, they only know tension.




> A typical bicep routine that I've seen thousands of ppl do since I started training at 15yrs old is
> 
> 2-3 sets of standing barbell curls, 2-3 sets of standing db hammer curls, 2-3 sets of a preacher or concentration curl.



Again, this means nothing.  Refer to my previous statements.




> & so far for years it has been the most beneficial bicep routine.



Care to provide some sort of scientific study to back this up?




> To me it just sounds like ppl don't want to take the time to do a complete bicep routine.



I do a bicep routine, just not your bicep routine.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 27, 2004)

rock4832



> Is this Pumpster or Johnnny?!? LOL. Dude, you have got to get a life!!!



I think you should look in the mirror yourself before you start telling other ppl to get a life.

You are just reall sad.

cowpimp



> Oh, many people use it. Great. That doesn't prove anything. Many people also totally stagnate in their gains, many people have small arms, and many people lift based on very little solid knowledge.



1. If you think an 18 or 19 inch arm for natural than what do you consider large for a natural training person?

I'm not 19 probably about 18 inches & I'm only 200lbs

Let me guess rock4832 bullshit right?     You are so undeducated it's not even funny.



> Oh, many people use it. Great. That doesn't prove anything. Many people also totally stagnate in their gains, many people have small arms, and many people lift based on very little solid knowledge.



2. As far as the other natrual training ppl who follow a regular weekly bicep routine they average at least 17 inches if not more.



> Care to provide some sort of scientific study to back this up?



How about the simple proof that my arms have grown in size & strenght.



> I do a bicep routine, just not your bicep routine.



Let me guess your bicep routine starts off with Barbell rows, then on to some chins, some T-bar rows & I guess instead of preacher or concentration curls you'll finish off your bicep routine with seated cable rows.


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

I See......


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 27, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> 1. If you think an 18 or 19 inch arm for natural than what do you consider large for a natural training person?
> 
> I'm not 19 probably about 18 inches & I'm only 200lbs



That's you Johnnny, not many people.  Get your facts straight.  On top of that, it is very obvious that you are totally estimating the size of your arms.  You're "probably" about 18 inches.




> 2. As far as the other natrual training ppl who follow a regular weekly bicep routine they average at least 17 inches if not more.



Are you kidding me?  Stop pulling numbers out of your ass.  Very few people have 17 inch arms at a decent level of bodyfat.




> How about the simple proof that my arms have grown in size & strenght.



Obviously you have never tried cutting out direct arm work, so you really have nothing to compare it to.




> Let me guess your bicep routine starts off with Barbell rows, then on to some chins, some T-bar rows & I guess instead of preacher or concentration curls you'll finish off your bicep routine with seated cable rows.



Currently, I do no direct bicep work because I am doing a powerlifting routine.  However, my bicep routine will consist of 2-3 working sets if and when I choose to do a bodybuilding routine again.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 27, 2004)

Johnnny doesn't know what he's talking about.


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

I guess this thread replaces the upper pec thread, 






 go on....please.....


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 27, 2004)

I don't say that to insult Johnnny, really.  But the contention that his method is the world's greatest because "he said so" and we're all lazy incompetents is ridiculous.


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

I See.....


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

I thought Johnny left, I have not seen a new post from him in a while


----------



## Dmwrss (Nov 27, 2004)

regular curls are more conventional so of course people are going to believe that that exercise is more responsible for growth than any other curling exercise that they do. Incline curls are good for stretching the muscle leaving a better impression on the exercise. Hammercurls I believe are more beneficial for optimal bicep growth. Reason being is that it is working the larger muscle of the two. The longer head. Or should I say more stress is on that specific part of the muscle. More weight can be applied as well. Also its a very natural movement. Whenever someone lifts their arm without any weights in it, 9 times out of 10 the hand is going to be in the same position as if you were doing a hammer curl.

this is strictly my opinion mixed with factual comments.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 27, 2004)

Duncans Donuts



> Johnnny doesn't know what he's talking about.



I guess you know everything then.

All hail Duncans Donuts has spoken


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

We all have our different opinions, I thought you guys made peace.


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

Carry on then......


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 27, 2004)

Duncans Donuts



> I don't say that to insult Johnnny, really. But the contention that his method is the world's greatest because "he said so" and we're all lazy incompetents is ridiculous.



You put words in my mouth again.

I never said that "my method" was the absolute world's greates method for bicep building.

Nor did I ever claim it to be "my method".

My whole point is that an individual should not rely on back exercises such as chins, barbell rows, T-Bar Rows, 1-arm Rows, seated cable rows & lat pulldown's for building the biceps over a bicep routine.

The type of routine I follow I've learned from my old strength coach & other natural & steroid enhanced bodybuilders.

As for the lazy business, I never directly said that.

What I said was it doesn't sound like you want to do a regular full bicep routine.

But I would never rely on back exercises for bicep strength or growth ever.

Nor would I ever do back/bi's on the same day or back to back days for the reason of fatigue.

Yes your biceps get worked during a back routine, but not in the proper manner compared to bicep exercises.


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

Time for commercial break.....


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

Table served..................


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 27, 2004)

You arbitrarily invented what a "full bicep routine" is.  I consider what I do a full bicep routine.  Your contention that it's not is based on standards you made up based on your natural genius bodybuilder friends and strength training coaches.

Johnny, will you post pictures of yourself up, so we can see what you look like?  I'm really curious.



> but not in the proper manner compared to bicep exercises.



WHY? 



> y whole point is that an individual should not rely on back exercises such as chins, barbell rows, T-Bar Rows, 1-arm Rows, seated cable rows & lat pulldown's for building the biceps over a bicep routine.



Why?  TENSION IS TENSION.  Your muscles don't know the difference of angles, just the tension.  Don't get that?


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

Darn, I hate when these telemarketers interrupt my Soaps during dinner....  .


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

Just in time for my favorite soaps...............


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

OOPS, time to drop the kids off the kids at the pool.....


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 27, 2004)

Duncans Donuts



> Johnny, will you post pictures of yourself up, so we can see what you look like? I'm really curious.



Why should I have to?

Gopro doesn't have any pics in his gallery (No offense to you Gopro or criticism) just pointing out something here.

What do you really think I'm some 240lb slob with no muscle?


I haven't lie about anything or my body.

As for pics I'm still in the middle of toning up.

You try getting rid of uncontrollably gained body fat caused by a thyroid condition.

What I had when I had it after the alteration in my treatment, I had my thyroid shut down for 6 months & my metabolism along with it became very low.

So you can imagine what problems this caused to my physique.

But that's on track now & during this ordeal I went from a 34 inch waist to a 36 which wasn't my fault.

For those who no anything about the thyroid or have experienced what I have with their thyroid you know what I'm talking about.

But I've got my waist back down to a 34 at 200lbs & have re-gained a lot of power I lost since a few years ago.

Pics should be coming in soon.

But I don't lie.



> Why? TENSION IS TENSION. Your muscles don't know the difference of angles, just the tension. Don't get that?



So what you're saying is that barbell rows will build bigger & stronger biceps than standing barbell curls will?   

Give me a break.

As I said it is tension, but not the same tension or the tension required to build bigger/stronger biceps.


----------



## BoneCrusher (Nov 27, 2004)

Personally I switch off between reg's and incline's.  I like preacher curls as well.

 If you are still looking at this thread LittleKid don't pay attention to all the guys going at each other here.  Most of the time we all get along great.  Even those of us that do not like each other still keep it together.  Just keep coming around LK as these negative conversations are not really what this site is about.  99% of the time it is all good in the neighborhood.  Even in this mild little confrontation you are still seeing several view points which is really why you are here anyways.  You'll get to know the real lifters that you can learn from on these boards ... and there are many!!!

 Take care LK and keep up the good work!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 27, 2004)

> So what you're saying is that barbell rows will build bigger & stronger biceps than standing barbell curls will?



Supinated chin ups will.  

ten·sion   Audio pronunciation of "tension" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (tnshn)
n.
a.
   1. A force tending to stretch or elongate something.
   2. A measure of such a force: a tension on the cable of 50 pounds.



> As I said it is tension, but not the same tension or the tension required to build bigger/stronger biceps.



My apologies, is there a special kind of tension that the biceps feel when doing curls that it doesn't feel when contracted via a chin-up?  A Johnnny® approved tension?



> Gopro doesn't have any pics in his gallery



What the hell does Gopro have to do with anything?  Gopro doesn't wander around threads boasting about himself and then claiming others methods are wrong, explaining to us that his tension is a better kind of tension.


----------



## chris mason (Nov 27, 2004)

Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> You arbitrarily invented what a "full bicep routine" is. I consider what I do a full bicep routine. Your contention that it's not is based on standards you made up based on your natural genius bodybuilder friends and strength training coaches.
> 
> Johnny, will you post pictures of yourself up, so we can see what you look like? I'm really curious.
> 
> ...


I agree with this statement in general (about tension).  That said, there is a difference between a chin and a curl.  The chin is a multiple joint movement that has a very different dynamic in terms of the forearm flexors vs. a barbell curl (for example).  Yes, the chin will build your upper arms.  That said, the barbell curl will build them to a greater degree.  

Now, I say this from empirical evidence and my pondering of why this is so.  Without having the equipment or desire to perform the equations of related force on a given muscle or muscles during the 2 movements it makes sense to me that there is a difference in the 2 movements and thus the results for the forearms flexors.

Chins can build your biceps, but barbell curls will build them better.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 27, 2004)

Take notes from that, Johnnny.  

Don't chin-ups work the biceps around two joint axes (shoulder and elbow) - wherein during curls, the only joint worked around is the elbow?

I'm pondering out loud.  In any case, notice how CM was articulate and explained rationally his thoughts?  Take notes, Johnnny cake.


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 27, 2004)

Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> What the hell does Gopro have to do with anything?  Gopro doesn't wander around threads boasting about himself and then claiming others methods are wrong, explaining to us that his tension is a better kind of tension.


Because Johnnny has a crush on Gopro. Besides the fact that Gopro specifically asked Johnnny NOT to use his name in a thread again.


----------



## Randy (Nov 27, 2004)

I do close grip v-bar pull ups ... Seems to be working nicely for my lats. 
But does work the biceps too.


			
				Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> Supinated chin ups will.
> 
> 
> ten·sion Audio pronunciation of "tension" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tnshn)
> ...


----------



## LittleKid (Nov 27, 2004)

BoneCrusher said:
			
		

> Personally I switch off between reg's and incline's.  I like preacher curls as well.
> 
> If you are still looking at this thread LittleKid don't pay attention to all the guys going at each other here. Most of the time we all get along great. Even those of us that do not like each other still keep it together. Just keep coming around LK as these negative conversations are not really what this site is about. 99% of the time it is all good in the neighborhood. Even in this mild little confrontation you are still seeing several view points which is really why you are here anyways. You'll get to know the real lifters that you can learn from on these boards ... and there are many!!!
> 
> Take care LK and keep up the good work!!!!!!!!!!!


 Yea thats basically what i've been doing, I like incline curls alot more though, since I started doing them I decreased my reps and increased the weight. It's funny how many muscles you can work with just dumbells


----------



## Randy (Nov 27, 2004)

You're pretty funny MinO 



			
				min0 lee said:
			
		

> Time for commercial break.....


----------



## Randy (Nov 27, 2004)

Any more interesting articles


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> Any more interesting articles


I was reading my horoscope........


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 27, 2004)

All hail Duncans Donuts 

He is the best weightlifter in the world & knows everything & we should all do exactly what he does if we want to achieve optimal growth.   

Take out a pen ppl, no more bicep training. Just use our back exercises to equally build our biceps.   

A regular set of bicep exercises are useless


----------



## Randy (Nov 27, 2004)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> I was reading my horoscope........


I am going for walk...be back in about an hour.
I'm going to go build my biceps while walking   

Sorry...couldn't resist that one 

And that wasn't meant as an insult toward anyone..just thought it went with the thread


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 27, 2004)

LittleKid



> Yea thats basically what i've been doing, I like incline curls alot more though, since I started doing them I decreased my reps and increased the weight. It's funny how many muscles you can work with just dumbells



I have to agree with you & Bone Crusher I love incline curls, I also do incline hammer curls & when I do these curls I keep my feet up on something & make sure to keep my neck flate against the bench.

But they're excellent for strict curls


----------



## KarlW (Nov 27, 2004)

Actually this has raised some interesting questions.

The original question of the thread was which dumbel curl was best for biceps. Out of that came that perhaps the biceps don't need any direct curling exercises at all to achieve growth.

Johnny has said:



> Yes your biceps get worked during a back routine, but not in the proper manner compared to bicep exercises.



Well what I ask is the proper manner? 

Johnnny has also said:



> Telling someone their biceps will grow from doing solely barbell rows & other back exercises is sh!tty advice.



So Johnnny does or doesn't think that your biceps will grow from doing back exercises only?

DD has said:



> Supinated chin ups will. (build bigger biceps than curls)



What does it add up to?
Clearly, your biceps get a workout from back exercises. Whether they get a better or worse workout than doing curls is nothing but conjecture until someone shows scientific evidence. Note that word scientific


----------



## Randy (Nov 27, 2004)

I think you guys need to fire up a pointed cigarette and then come back and analyze this subject a bit more...


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 27, 2004)

chris mason said:
			
		

> I agree with this statement in general (about tension).  That said, there is a difference between a chin and a curl.  The chin is a multiple joint movement that has a very different dynamic in terms of the forearm flexors vs. a barbell curl (for example).  Yes, the chin will build your upper arms.  That said, the barbell curl will build them to a greater degree.
> 
> Now, I say this from empirical evidence and my pondering of why this is so.  Without having the equipment or desire to perform the equations of related force on a given muscle or muscles during the 2 movements it makes sense to me that there is a difference in the 2 movements and thus the results for the forearms flexors.
> 
> Chins can build your biceps, but barbell curls will build them better.



Perhaps this is true, but I still say that the curls should be kept to a minimum.  The observations that I have made show that supplementing compound pulling movements with direct bicep work is a good idea, but the number of sets done should be very small.  Maybe my biceps just have a very low capacity for recovery, but I am not going to argue with results.

Johnnny was suggesting up to 9 sets to be performed with isolation bicep exercises, which I feel is too much unless you stop several reps short of failure.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 27, 2004)

Go take some ephedra, Johnnny.


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

.


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

.


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

Let me get some coffee.....


----------



## Randy (Nov 27, 2004)

I love coffee...drink it all day    I'll have another cup


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

Wow, the Spurs beat the Jazz today.......


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

Some wine is also good......


----------



## Randy (Nov 27, 2004)

I don't keep up much with basketball.  But watching that last big brawl was something to see.  I seen the detailed footage on ESPN.


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

I think I need another cup, I feel sleepy......


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> I don't keep up much with basketball. But watching that last big brawl was something to see. I seen the detailed footage on ESPN.


They are destroying that sport.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 27, 2004)

Duncan had 12 points, 13 boards, 4 blocks, 3 assists, and sat out about half the game.

The Spurs decimated, laid to waste, the Jazz.  And the rest of the league in coming weeks...fear them


----------



## Randy (Nov 27, 2004)

here


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> here


Thanks


----------



## Randy (Nov 27, 2004)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> They are destroying that sport.


Yeah that was uncalled for...   
The guy with the big afro had no reason to push the other guy like he did.
The other guy did invoke interference, but he didn't deserve being shoved like that.   Then from there everyone was out of control.

I thought the biggest thing that was screwed up was how the fans acted.
You can't blame some of the players for defending themselves after having cups and chairs and stuff thrown at them.  They should have been equipped to make some serious arrests..  I think they need a lesson in crowd control with the way they acted.


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

Now that was strong java............


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> Yeah that was uncalled for...
> The guy with the big afro had no reason to push the other guy like he did.
> The other guy did invoke interference, but he didn't deserve being shoved like that. Then from there everyone was out of control.
> 
> ...


That is so true.


----------



## Randy (Nov 27, 2004)

Was freakin cold last night... I think my waterbed heater may be going out.... that sucks


----------



## Randy (Nov 27, 2004)

I hate when that happens


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

It gets that cold in CA?


----------



## Randy (Nov 27, 2004)

I turned full blast now and will see what happens overnight   Either I get boiled alive or suffer frost bite and have to sleep on the couch


----------



## Randy (Nov 27, 2004)

yeah it does when your waterbed goes out   Doesn't matter what state you live in.   When your body temperature drops below 98.5 and starts diving...its like laying on a bed of ice in the middle of the night.   Here in CA it's getting around 50 at night...still not that cold when compared to other states.


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

It's like that now in NY but it get colder.


----------



## Randy (Nov 27, 2004)

That's the beauty of California... It never gets to cold in the winter nor to hot in the summer on the average.. And no humidity. I hate that. Last time I was in Texas for a business trip it was like 110 degrees with high humidity.. I thought I was going to die.  Never been to NY


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 27, 2004)

Wow, sounds like paradise. Here in NY it's the city of extremes.
In the summer the temp averages 90 degrees with 100% humidity and in the winter it goes down to 10 degrees freezing cold.


----------



## Randy (Nov 28, 2004)

At least your near Times Square for New Years 

http://www.panoramas.dk/fullscreen3/f1.html


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 28, 2004)

Hey now guys, no whoring. We are supposed to be insulting Johnnny in this thread!!!


----------



## Randy (Nov 28, 2004)

Oh ok....forgot


----------



## Randy (Nov 28, 2004)

Well I ate my cup of cottage cheese, handful of almonds, glass of milk, and I'm off to bed


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 28, 2004)

Do you work nights or something Randy?


----------



## Randy (Nov 28, 2004)

Nahhh I'm just a nite owl .. I am usually up late.
Why, are you working Rock?


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 28, 2004)

Yep, on nights 17 days straight. Most of'em 12 and 16 hour shifts! LOL, I should have some money for christmas this year


----------



## Randy (Nov 28, 2004)

Kewl... It's always nice to pickup extra money whether for Christmas or otherwise .

Well I'm off to bed... Nite Rock


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 28, 2004)

Have a good one buddy. See ya tomorrow nite


----------



## Randy (Nov 28, 2004)

Ok will do....


----------



## cappo5150 (Nov 28, 2004)

I'm a little late for this thread but:

"Can't we all just get along" - Rodney King


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 28, 2004)

Hammer curls on a preacher culr bench are also excellent for a huge bicep pump.


----------



## Randy (Nov 28, 2004)

I used to do a lot of preacher curls, but found I prefer standard curls better since you get a full range of motion.  So I like stand up hammers best.  But I still rotate preacher exercises into my programs too.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 28, 2004)

Randy 



> I used to do a lot of preacher curls, but found I prefer standard curls
> better since you get a full range of motion.  So I like stand up
> hammers best.  But I still rotate preacher exercises into my programs too.



I know what you mean.

I love to do different angles & grips so will usually include 3 different angles & grips to my bicep routine that I alter every 3-4 weeks.


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 28, 2004)

cappo5150 said:
			
		

> I'm a little late for this thread but:
> 
> "Can't we all just get along" - Rodney King


A little hug........


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 28, 2004)

I love doing hammers


----------



## Randy (Nov 28, 2004)

I see


----------



## Randy (Nov 28, 2004)

Today is lat/delt/trap day for me.
And homework too


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 28, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> I see


----------



## Randy (Nov 28, 2004)

Here is what I think about Copyright Infingement....


----------



## min0 lee (Nov 28, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> Here is what I think about Copyright Infingement....


----------



## Randy (Nov 28, 2004)




----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 28, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Randy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How many times have you fu*king said that?!?! *Please* learn to say _new_ things!!!


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 28, 2004)

rock4832



> How many times have you fu*king said that?!?! Please learn to say new things!!!



You're one to talk dude.

But changing up your angles & grips every 3-4 weeks is really great to keep your biceps guessing.

One of my favorites is standing db curls but crossing the db infront of you to really get a great bicep contraction.

The same can be done for hammer curls.


----------



## Randy (Nov 28, 2004)

Well I'm still trying to adhere to my diet... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




so far today...

meal 1: protein shake with 2 cups milk / 5gms creatine / 5gms l-glutamine

meal 2: 6 eggs (2 whole / 4 white only) english muffin with lean white turkey
1 cup of milk with 5 gms creatine / 5 gms l-glutamine

Meal 3: New York Steak / baked potato / brocolli / water /small salad

3 more to go ... This diet stuff is tough. I know I can cut more without the milk, but it is a good protein source


----------



## chris mason (Nov 28, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Perhaps this is true, but I still say that the curls should be kept to a minimum. The observations that I have made show that supplementing compound pulling movements with direct bicep work is a good idea, but the number of sets done should be very small. Maybe my biceps just have a very low capacity for recovery, but I am not going to argue with results.
> 
> Johnnny was suggesting up to 9 sets to be performed with isolation bicep exercises, which I feel is too much unless you stop several reps short of failure.


I concur.  Unless one is using anabolics of some sort then biceps work should be kept to a minimum.  Anywhere between 2-5 working sets depending on the individual's capacity for recovery and relative effort being expended (are the sets to failure or short of failure, i.e. "intensity" defined in the HIT manner).  

I personally have just begun direct arm work again and am using 2 sets of barbell curls.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 28, 2004)

> But changing up your angles & grips every 3-4 weeks is really great to keep your biceps guessing.



STr8 out of FLEX MAGAZINE.


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 28, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> You're one to talk dude.
> 
> But changing up your angles & grips every 3-4 weeks is really great to keep your biceps guessing.
> 
> ...



Stop pretending you are smart by regurgitating random phrases you have read throughout the Internet or in BB magazines, yet you don't understand.  The real key to hypertrophy is progressive resistance, not a multitude of "angles & grips."


----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 28, 2004)

> to keep your biceps guessing



Yea, I like to suprise my biceps every couple of months to keep them on their toes. 

But dont you hate it when they sneak in your workout log at night and get a jump on the next day's workout and their all ready for it. That TOTALLY ruins the suprise, AND my workout. ....and then I have to spank them and send them to bed early for cheating with no dessert or TV.


----------



## KarlW (Nov 28, 2004)

Do they let you in on the fact that they took a peek or do you find out during your first set when they find the exercise too easy?


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 28, 2004)

camarosuper6 said:
			
		

> Yea, I like to suprise my biceps every couple of months to keep them on their toes.
> 
> But dont you hate it when they sneak in your workout log at night and get a jump on the next day's workout and their all ready for it. That TOTALLY ruins the suprise, AND my workout. ....and then I have to spank them and send them to bed early for cheating with no dessert or TV.



Bahahaha!


----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 28, 2004)

Oh my biceps are some lying sum a bitches and wont tell me nuthin until that first set and it just feels so damn easy.

Sometimes I get pissed and just whup their asses in front of the gym.. and like this one lady tried to stop me and said she was gonna call the cops for bicep abuse and aggrivation but then my biceps defended me and told her to fuk off and go do sum cardio for her fat ass.


----------



## KarlW (Nov 28, 2004)

Maybe your biceps actually enjoyed the abuse?


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 29, 2004)

CowPimp



> Stop pretending you are smart by regurgitating random phrases you have read throughout the Internet or in BB magazines, yet you don't understand. The real key to hypertrophy is progressive resistance, not a multitude of "angles & grips."



I'm not pretending I'm smart or conjuring up phrases I've read on the net or books.

I'm stating what I've known for years, & duh the key to muscular growth is resitance.

But you have to isolate the muscle that you are trying to make bigger.
& that resistance coming in the form of different angles & grips will make the muscles develop as you are hitting it from all sides using a variety of angles & grips.

If you constantly use the same angle or grip with resitance, the muscles will get used to the same constant grip & angle & won't grow as effectively.

This is why variety is so important.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 29, 2004)

nonsense, as usual, a basic lack of understanding in everything from physiology to physics


----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 29, 2004)

> I'm not pretending I'm smart or conjuring up phrases I've read on the net or books



Wrong



> But you have to isolate the muscle that you are trying to make bigger



Wrong

[/QUOTE]If you constantly use the same angle or grip with resitance, the muscles will get used to the same constant grip & angle & won't grow as effectively.





> Wrong


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 29, 2004)

Duncans Donuts



> nonsense, as usual, a basic lack of understanding in everything from physiology to physics



All hail the all great know it all DD has spoken 

I know someone who knows what he's talking about who would agree with me & you know who he is.

But we all know that DD relies on back exercises for his biceps.


http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=35431

I can't agree with this thread any more than I already do.

The peak contraction in any "bicep curl" is soooo important.

CamoroSuper6



> Wrong





> Wrong





> Wrong



Another one with a very limited vocabulary.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 29, 2004)

Ok then explain why DD's arms are about 18 inches and why he does very little direct bicep work if any?


----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 29, 2004)

Dont get me wrong, theres nothing wrong with direct arm work at all.  BUT, you dont HAVE to have it to get good growth (as has been said many times already)


----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 29, 2004)

I have a fine vocabulary Johnnny, Im just stating that your wrong.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 29, 2004)

I do direct bicep work.  One set to failure a weight of an exercise.  Should I brag about my weights like Johnnny does?  No.  I know what works, and I have no problem with what others do, but to say that you HAVE TO HAVE 9 x 9 x 9 exercises/sets/reps is as wrong as me saying that my way is the only way to do things.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 29, 2004)

CamaroSuper6



> I have a fine vocabulary Johnnny, Im just stating that your wrong.



Robert's link I have included just says it all.

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/s...ead.php?t=35431

It's not wrong.



> Dont get me wrong, theres nothing wrong with direct arm work at all. BUT, you dont HAVE to have it to get good growth (as has been said many times already)



& who knows maybe your biceps would be bigger if you did more direct isolated work.

You certainly can't peak your bicep while doing a back row of some sort or cable row.

You can only peak your bicep during a curl motion.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 29, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> You can only peak your bicep during a curl motion.



THE PEAK?  You mean a maximum contraction?  Wherein the muscle is optimally shortened?

You can shorten the muscle optimally in a pull up or a row, friend.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 29, 2004)

Thats my problem with your theory too Johnnny.  Its that your program is "bad" so to speak. Maybe it works well for you, and thats just fantastic.

However, your reasoning behind your workout and the fact you contend that you MUST do this or MUST do that to acheieve growth is just plain wrong.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 29, 2004)

Duncans Donuts



> THE PEAK? You mean a maximum contraction? Wherein the muscle is optimally shortened?
> 
> You can shorten the muscle optimally in a pull up or a row, friend.



I don't feel much of a bicep contraction while doing my rows. I feel bicep strain, but not much of a contraction compared to biceps.



> I do direct bicep work. One set to failure a weight of an exercise. Should I brag about my weights like Johnnny does? No. I know what works, and I have no problem with what others do, but to say that you HAVE TO HAVE 9 x 9 x 9 exercises/sets/reps is as wrong as me saying that my way is the only way to do things.



I only do 3 exercises 9 sets total for biceps.

As for bragging I'm not bragging merely defending myself against a couple of ppl who don't think I train.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 29, 2004)

CamaroSuper6



> Thats my problem with your theory too Johnnny. Its that your program is "bad" so to speak. Maybe it works well for you, and thats just fantastic.
> 
> However, your reasoning behind your workout and the fact you contend that you MUST do this or MUST do that to acheieve growth is just plain wrong.



It's a standard bicep routine that only takes 15min-20mins maximum.

Standing barbell curls & preacher curls is as basic as it gets for bicep training.

There's nothing "bad" about that.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 29, 2004)

Thats great.  But you can build great biceps without direct work.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 29, 2004)

camarosuper6



> Thats great. But you can build great biceps without direct work.



The whole point is why sell yourself short?

Wouldn't you rather have an 18 inch bicep instead of a 17 inch bicep or a 19 inch bicep instead of an 18 inch bicep?

Sure you're getting hypertrophy from back exercises but think of how much more of a bicep contraction you'll get from a 125lb barbell curl peak contraction?

A shit load. & this will make your biceps explode.

I agree that biceps are one of the most overtrained muscles which is why I do no more than 3 exercises 3 sets each totaling 9 sets for biceps at most.

For those who say that standard bicep training doesn't work is full of it.

Anyone can make their biceps grow provided they train them "properly" & eat enough food & protein.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 29, 2004)

> Sure you're getting hypertrophy from back exercises but think of how much more of a bicep contraction you'll get from a 125lb barbell curl peak contraction?
> 
> A shit load. & this will make your biceps explode.



That is your opinion.  I get a so called peak contraction doing chin ups, I just don't agree that the barbell curl is that much better than a pull up...even though I do both.


----------



## Randy (Nov 29, 2004)




----------



## chris mason (Nov 29, 2004)

Just as an aside, peak contraction during a barbell curl is somewhat pointless.  There is essentially no resistance for the biceps at the top of a barbell curl due to the physics of the movement (assuming you are standing).  So, you are essentially just flexing the muscle when performing a "peak contraction" barbell curl.


----------



## Randy (Nov 29, 2004)

I am writing this information down


----------



## Tha Don (Nov 29, 2004)

chris mason said:
			
		

> Just as an aside, peak contraction during a barbell curl is somewhat pointless.  There is essentially no resistance for the biceps at the top of a barbell curl due to the physics of the movement (assuming you are standing).  So, you are essentially just flexing the muscle when performing a "peak contraction" barbell curl.



nothing wrong with that, i always flex my biceps hard at the top of my bicep curls, mind muscle is very important! its not pointless at all

and johnnnny haven't you shut up yet?


----------



## Tha Don (Nov 29, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> camarosuper6
> 
> 
> 
> ...



this is such bullshit man

thats like saying, DON'T DO BENCH PRESS FOR YOUR CHEST! DO FLYS INSTEAD! AND YOUR CHEST WILL BE INCHES BIGGER!

man it don't matter what exercises you use to rip a muscle, as long as you hit it hard and give your body plenty of rest and nutrition it will grow

i actually bet in most cases the reverse of what you just said! being that if people cut out all these hour-long overtraining biceps workouts comprised of 20 sets of 5 different curling movements and let the bicep work be taken care of through compound/indirect exercises they would have bigger guns (due to less overtraining -> more growth!)


----------



## ChrisROCK (Nov 29, 2004)

well said Young D


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 29, 2004)

Duncans Donuts



> That is your opinion.  I get a so called peak contraction doing chin
> ups, I just don't agree that the barbell curl is that much better than a
> pull up...even though I do both.



Today I did very strict standing dumbbell curls holding the contraction for 1-2 seconds at the top of every movement just as described in Robert's link.

& just for you I will include the weights I used, 60's, 50's, then 40's & I'll tell  you what, my biceps felt like they were going to explode through the skin which is what you want.

young d



> this is such bullshit man
> 
> thats like saying, DON'T DO BENCH PRESS FOR YOUR CHEST! DO FLYS INSTEAD! AND YOUR CHEST WILL BE INCHES BIGGER!
> 
> ...



Are you that clueless? Have you read anything that you quoted me on?

I agreed that biceps is one of the most overtrained bodypart.

But I've never said anything about an hour long bicep routine. My bicep routine consists of 3 exercises, 3 sets each totaling 9 sets of biceps. Today it only took me 15mins.

Have you even read the link supplied by Robert?

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/s...ead.php?t=35431


So you agree not to train biceps to make them grow?

Ridiculous.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 29, 2004)

Johnnny we understand that Robert Dimaggio posted something on training biceps. Thats wonderful.

The POINT is you do not have to isolate the biceps to get them to grow.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 29, 2004)

camarosuper6



> Johnnny we understand that Robert Dimaggio posted something on training
> biceps. Thats wonderful.
> 
> The POINT is you do not have to isolate the biceps to get them to grow.



So I guess you're another who agrees that barbell rows, T-Bar rows, chins, 
1-arm rows, seated cable rows, & lat pulldowns build your biceps just as equally as using a 9 set bicep routine right?

The point is why sell yourself short.

One not take a point from Arnold's play book & train everybody part despite his steroid use he still trained everything equally.

Even for football we still did standing barbell curls & hammer curls.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 29, 2004)

Building your biceps is NOT about one exercise or another, its about overloading your biceps with whatever exercise you do.  On palms up pullups, you are overloading your biceps with much more weight than you could use for a regular straight bar curl because it is a compound movement.  Progressive Overload is the key to muscle growth, and what better way to do it than by using the exercises that allow you to move the most weight.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 29, 2004)

camarosuper6



> Building your biceps is NOT about one exercise or another, its about
> overloading your biceps with whatever exercise you do.  On palms up
> pullups, you are overloading your biceps with much more weight than you
> could use for a regular straight bar curl because it is a compound
> movement.  Progressive Overload is the key to muscle growth, and what better way to do it than by using the exercises that allow you to move the most weight.



So you would actually consider barbell or 1-arm rows a compound movement for biceps? This is ridiculous.

Standing barbell curls is a compound movement for biceps not barbell rows or the other rows.

I asked a bunch of long time training ppl at the gym today about this & all thought this was ludicrous, various athletes, trainers, bodybuilders & the average joe all thought this was all ludicrous.

Everyone of them performs a weekly bicep routine & would never give it up.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 29, 2004)

> I asked a bunch of long time training ppl at the gym today about this & all thought this was ludicrous, various athletes, trainers, bodybuilders & the average joe all thought this was all ludicrous.
> 
> Everyone of them performs a weekly bicep routine & would never give it up.



Well shit, then it must be golden.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 29, 2004)

Not to brag, but I have decent sized arms, for an average person, as does my brother. 

Cold, their about 17 inches, give or take a cm. I do exactly ONE set of BB curls per week. My brother does no isolation bicep work, but does do hanging pull ups with negatives and his arms have grown nicely from it.  Explain that?


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 29, 2004)

camarosuper6



> Well shit, then it must be golden.



Personally I will have to agree with the majority here on this one meaning performing a weekly bicep routine that takes 15mins.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 29, 2004)

camarosuper6



> Not to brag, but I have decent sized arms, for an average person, as does my brother.
> 
> Cold, their about 17 inches, give or take a cm. I do exactly ONE set of BB curls per week. My brother does no isolation bicep work, but does do hanging pull ups with negatives and his arms have grown nicely from it. Explain that?



Yes chin ups will work to a certain extent. Just not to the potential as a bicep routine will. Plus just to work his biceps he also has to work out the back with the pull up motion, it's not all biceps.

Why run the risk of over working yourself just to work your biceps when you can work them with a few simple bicep exercises?

Next you will say that you don't work your triceps b/c you get enough tricep work from your chest presses & shoulder presses.   

His biceps could grow even more if he did his biceps once or twice a week with low volume.

As I've said there's no reason to sell yourself short.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 29, 2004)

I never said I didnt agree with the fact that your biceps MAY grow from adding some direct work for them but its not set in stone!

And the only tricep work I do as of now is c-g bench and dips and they are larger than ever.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 29, 2004)

camarosuper6



> I never said I didnt agree with the fact that your biceps MAY grow from adding some direct work for them but its not set in stone!
> 
> And the only tricep work I do as of now is c-g bench and dips and they
> are larger than ever.



The majority of ppl I've ever spoken to would never give up a strict bicep routine for anything or anyone. I've asked many ppl over the years & today I asked about 12 ppl who all said they'd never give up a bicep routine for growth.

Why is it that most athletes of various sports such as football, powerlifting, basketball, wrestling, hockey, boxing & even golf follow a regular isolated bicep routine? Answer that?

I will give my answer, b/c their strength coach is telling them to b/c of the importance of having a complete overall & equally strong physique.

As for triceps I am only doing cg bench & incline skull crushers with an e-bar, 6 sets total for triceps.

I do my triceps after my back routine which is 6 sets of various rows, 3 sets of either lat pulldowns or seated cable rows with a wide grip bar, & either good mornings or hyper extensions.

My tricep routine only takes 15mins as well.


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 29, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> camarosuper6
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It looks like your saying something but all I hear is


----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 29, 2004)

Ugh....

Like I said... nothing wrong with direct bi or tri work, HOWEVER it is not ESSENTIAL to do direct work to make them grow.


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 29, 2004)

camarosuper6 said:
			
		

> Ugh....
> 
> Like I said... nothing wrong with direct bi or tri work, HOWEVER it is not ESSENTIAL to do direct work to make them grow.


Johnnny has absolutely no comprehension skills!   But seriously Camaro, I think you should follow Johnnny's different training advice for this comp coming up!


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 29, 2004)

rock4832



> Johnnny has absolutely no comprehension skills!   But
> seriously Camaro, I think you should follow Johnnny's different training
> advice for this comp coming up!



My comprehension skills are fine.

The things I understand are that you are a conceited, uneducated individual who obviously has nothing better to do than to look for trouble & try to insult me.

I personally think that you are the one who is clueless.

Like I've already said there's no reason to sell yourself short of bicep growth.


NOBODY HAS ANSWERED THE QUESTION, DESPITE STEROID USE WHY DID ARNOLD BELIEVE THE IMPORTANCE OF TRAINING ALL MUSCLES EQUALLY?


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 29, 2004)

camarosuper6 said:
			
		

> Ugh....
> 
> Like I said... nothing wrong with direct bi or tri work, HOWEVER it is not ESSENTIAL to do direct work to make them grow.



Excatly.  Johnnny, this is not a black and white issue.  Will your biceps grow without direct work?  Yes.  Will your biceps grow with direct work?  Yes.  Will the growth be optimal one way or another?  Well, you have to try both methods before you can say so.  

Personally, I have done a 9 set bicep routine before.  I have done a 5-6 set bicep routine.  I am currently doing no direct work.  Guess what?  No direct work has shown the most improvement thus far.  So, you cannot tell me that this method doesn't make your biceps grow.  As a side note, my diet was fairly consistent throughout all of these routines.

Now, I do plan on implementing direct bicep work into my routine in the future.  However, I'm going to try even less volume.  I'm going to try 2-4 sets.


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 29, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> NOBODY HAS ANSWERED THE QUESTION, DESPITE STEROID USE WHY DID ARNOLD BELIEVE THE IMPORTANCE OF TRAINING ALL MUSCLES EQUALLY?



He started doing steroids at 13.  He doesn't know the first thing about training naturally.  In fact, he has a lot of completely flawed opinions about bodybulding in general.  He says you should do squats in bare feet so you can "feel the Earth."  What the fuck difference can that possibly make?  Are you going to pull your sweaty socks off in the gym next time because of something Arnold said?  I hope not.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 29, 2004)

CowPimp



> Excatly. Johnnny, this is not a black and white issue. Will your biceps grow without direct work? Yes. Will your biceps grow with direct work? Yes. Will the growth be optimal one way or another? Well, you have to try both methods before you can say so.
> 
> Personally, I have done a 9 set bicep routine before. I have done a 5-6 set bicep routine. I am currently doing no direct work. Guess what? No direct work has shown the most improvement thus far. So, you cannot tell me that this method doesn't make your biceps grow. As a side note, my diet was fairly consistent throughout all of these routines.
> 
> Now, I do plan on implementing direct bicep work into my routine in the future. However, I'm going to try even less volume. I'm going to try 2-4 sets.



I'm not trying to criticise you, but you totally contradict yourself in everything & the arguements that you have put up.

If you believe this post than there was no need for you to put up such an arguement.

Personally I have done both & direct bicep work is much better.

Direct bicep work is by far superior. 

I guess no one can answer my question to Arnold's beliefs of equality in his training?

It is a very good point.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 29, 2004)

CowPimp



> He started doing steroids at 13. He doesn't know the first thing about training naturally. In fact, he has a lot of completely flawed opinions about bodybulding in general. He says you should do squats in bare feet so you can "feel the Earth." What the fuck difference can that possibly make? Are you going to pull your sweaty socks off in the gym next time because of something Arnold said? I hope not.



Actually it was 16yrs old so he did train naturally for a few years.

The bare feet comment has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

But as other members here have pointed out in the past that you still need to train properly even while taking steroids.

& Arnold did just that.

As I've seen ppl take steroids make not much gains at all.


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 29, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Actually it was 16yrs old so he did train naturally for a few years.



It's definitely 13.




> The bare feet comment has nothing to do with the topic at hand.



Sure it does.  It is in reference to Arnold's credibility.  Just because he is big, doesn't mean he is smart.




> But as other members here have pointed out in the past that you still need to train properly even while taking steroids.



Yes, but your muscles recover exponentially faster when you are on steroids.  He can do a lot of sets for his biceps without overtraining them because of the juice.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 29, 2004)

Johnnny you are a goddamn moron.  You claim Ephedra caused your hypothyroidism, then use it as an excuse to why you aren't as strong as you used to be.  The shtick is old, and your arguments are ridiculous, because you are arguing that your opinion is really the only way to do it.



> I asked a bunch of long time training ppl at the gym today about this & all thought this was ludicrous, various athletes, trainers, bodybuilders & the average joe all thought this was all ludicrous.



Do the little logo with the guy praising me again, I love that.  It's exactly where you should be, too, on your knees.  Your anecdotes are fucking stupid and so are you.

Stop bringing up Robert DiMaggio's post over and over again, your dick sucking is tiresome.  You pick a person people respect and ride their coattails.  I do one set to failure for my biceps, so I do believe in some isolated bicep work, but the idea that it's the only way to do it is wrong.  Palm up chinups are, imo, good enough because of how much weight is used.

What's funny is that most people don't disagree with you that sharply, but your point it's your way or the highway that's fucking dumb.  All your non specific MY BUDDY AND THIS BODYBUILDER I WORKED WITH BACKS ME UP is  annoying, stfu and stfd pls.

Oh and the post you made about how YOUR BICEPS WERE EXPLODING OUT OF YOUR ARMS and you told me specifically what your weights are, I DON'T F'N CARE, I don't believe you and the weights themselves don't impress me.  Keep chasing that pump though.


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 29, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to criticise you, but you totally contradict yourself in everything & the arguements that you have put up.
> 
> If you believe this post than there was no need for you to put up such an arguement.



When did I contradict myself?  Please explicity point out the contradiction, and I will clarify myself.

I said that people should try no direct arm work.  I said people should try very little direct arm work.  It is something worth trying.  If it doesn't work better, then continue with your old routine.  I don't care.  I'm here to help.  However, 9 sets of direct bicep work is not the only way to go.  As you can plainly see, low volume of direct work has benefited a lot of people here.


----------



## cman (Nov 29, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> It's definitely 13.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly.


----------



## cman (Nov 29, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> rock4832
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because he felt his physic was perfect. so if he added to his calves, he would have to add to every thing else to keep the perfect proportions.


----------



## cman (Nov 29, 2004)

Johnnny, is that you?


----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 29, 2004)

Johnnny you can keep your training theories to yourself form now on.


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 30, 2004)

Duncans Donuts



> Johnnny you are a goddamn moron. You claim Ephedra caused your hypothyroidism, then use it as an excuse to why you aren't as strong as you used to be. The shtick is old, and your arguments are ridiculous, because you are arguing that your opinion is really the only way to do it.



Normally this is well below my level, I can't believe I'm sinking to the level of the few other jackasses here as it's totally against everything I believe in.

BUt I think you deserve it here.


F^CK YOU MAN. You are even more now a conceited, uneducated asshole than I ever thought. 

To laugh at somebodies medical sufferings is very low. & you don't even have the damn information correct dude.

If you knew anything you would know that the ephedrine/ephedra & thermogenics supps greatly elevate your thyroid levels.

If you knew anything about endocrinology & medicine in general you would know that in some ppl even after the supplement is ceased, some ppl reacte badly to it & their thyroid levels remain permanently high. Just as in any drug, supplement or steroid, sometimes ppl react badly to it & have negative health affects.

& IT WAS HYPERTHYROIDISM learn to read. Hyperthyroidism burns lean body mass if you knew anything about the thyroid.

There are other members with thyroid conditions on this forum if you read through this thread.

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=30121

So with this said you really are ignorant & conceited. Someone with Diabetes a medical condition, you'd think that you'd realize that medical conditions can strongly affect your athletic performance & your physique.

Hyperthyroid causes you to burn lean body mass at a very high speed.

I think an endocrinologist knows more than you about those supplements.

Yes these supplements are the reason why I am not as big or strong as I was before.

You don't think if you lose 30lbs of lean mass in a short time period of 4 weeks that you're not going to lose size & power? Of course you will.

You don't know what you're talking about.

As far as biceps go I would never eliminate it for anyone or anything.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 30, 2004)

Ephedra didn't cause your hyperthyroidism.  That's bullshit.

I never use my diabetes as an excuse, like you do all the time.  Stop your whining and don't call me uneducated you faggot ass moron.

Got any more anecdotes to proove your points?  I had a doctor tell me yesterday that by doing more volume in a workout you would be achieving a tone.  Doctors can be ignorant.

And for reference, I didn't laugh at your condition, but I don't give a fuck with all the shit you've accused me of, from being lazy to being on gear.  Cry me a river bitch.


----------



## Randy (Nov 30, 2004)




----------



## Johnnny (Nov 30, 2004)

Duncans Donuts



> Ephedra didn't cause your hyperthyroidism.  That's bullshit.



You're bullshit so shut the f^ck up as you aren't a f^cking endocrinologist.

You know shit about endocrinology ok.

As I've already explained my regular family doctor performed annual TSH tests to check my thyroid level for years since I was young.

There were NEVER, EVER, any thyroid dysfunctions after 20yrs until I took the ephedrine/ephedra supplements.

The endocrinologist specifically told me that some ppl react badly to them & that their thyroid levels remain permanently high even after use of the supplement is ceased.

So shut the f^ck up Mr.Know it all & stop trying to be an endocrinologist.


----------



## Randy (Nov 30, 2004)

*I am an official licenced endocrinologist ....*
*Please step into my office for a free consultation .*


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 30, 2004)

Hey Randy, I'd really trust that guy


----------



## Randy (Nov 30, 2004)

Don't let his teeth fool ya Johnnny, as he comes with the highest of recommendations.


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 30, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Duncans Donuts
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ummm, I call bullshit also! And I'm friends and used to work with several endocrinologists and *THEY* cry bullshit.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 30, 2004)

It's funny that your waist went from 34 to 42 inches (as you've claimed) when you had hyperthyroidism...and you lost 30 pounds of muscles, too.  Strange that you could pack on so much fat, lose so much muscle when your thyroid is stimulated to burn everything


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 30, 2004)

rock4832



> Ummm, I call bullshit also! And I'm friends and used to work with several endocrinologists and THEY cry bullshit.



Yeah right & I work with the Govenor of Kulifornia.

You aren't an endocrinologist & I highly doubt you know any & someone as uneducated as yourself would even be able to comprehend what they are saying.

You are just one of those conceited jagoff's here who likes to get on ppl's cases.

& yes the ephedrine/ephedra did cause my hyperthyroid.

If you knew anything about how those supplements work, you'd know that they greatly raise your thyroid levels.

& you'd also know that not everyone reacts the same to drugs or supplements.

There are many ppl who don't have thyroid conditions who've taken these supplements & have had their thyroids remain high after use of the supplement has been ceased & hence hyperthyroidism is in play amongst these individuals.

You aren't an endocrinologist. You should stick to what your best at & in this case being a jack ass.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 30, 2004)

Synepherine gave me herpes.

I SWARE!~


----------



## Johnnny (Nov 30, 2004)

Duncans Donuts



> It's funny that your waist went from 34 to 42 inches (as you've
> claimed) when you had hyperthyroidism...and you lost 30 pounds of muscles,
> too.  Strange that you could pack on so much fat, lose so much muscle when
> your thyroid is stimulated to burn everything



You've made it clear that you can't read either.

You really can't read or have payed any attention to what happened to me as I've explained it over & over again.


In the year 2000/01 I lost 30lbs of lean body mass/power & strength. My waist was about a 33. & I dropped from 227lbs with %12-%14BF to a burnt out & weak 200lbs as the hyperthyroidism made it impossible for me to train or gain weight. & it also caused insomnia at night & made me sleep during the day.

For 3yrs I was taking a medication called Tapazole to keep the thyroid from WORKING TOO MUCH (hyperthyroidism).

I was getting this treatment for 3yrs.

Are we following?

Then in 2003 August, the endocrinologist wanted to alter my thyroid treatment b/c in 2002 I had a flare up & had lost 8lbs in one week & they needed to give me more Tapazole.

In August 2003 they gave me a very large dose of Iodine. In large enough doses it will shut down your body's thyroid production.

Therefore you will need SYNTHROID to replace the thyroid hormone.

Yet it took from August 2003 to January 2004 before I could take any SYNTHROID's.

So for those 5 months from August 2003 to January 2004 I HAD NO THYROID HORMONE WHICH BASICALLY PUT ME IN THE "HYPO"THYROIDISM STATE.

If you knew anything about thyroid function you'd know that with hypothyroidism an individual is greatly prone to weight gain even while following a proper diet & exercise training regime.

My endocrinologist, she warned me that I'd probably gain weight no matter how much dieting & training I did.

& she was right during those 5 months Aug2003-Jan2004 is when my waist exploded from a 34 to a 36 inch waist (not 42 like you said).

Anyone else here who's had thyroid problems has similar stories.

Just read the pages of that thyroid thread & you will see their sufferings.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 30, 2004)




----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 30, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> rock4832
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uh, I never said I was. Again you don't know you read. I said I used to *WORK* with them you hillbilly fuck.


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 30, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Duncans Donuts
> Just read the pages of that thyroid thread & you will see their sufferings.


I....just....can't.....stop.....crying!   Your made up story is soooo sad. Heres a Hanky to blow your nose-


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Nov 30, 2004)




----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 30, 2004)

Lets not concern ourselves with Johnnny anymore. It is not worth the time or frustration.


----------



## CowPimp (Nov 30, 2004)

camarosuper6 said:
			
		

> Lets not concern ourselves with Johnnny anymore. It is not worth the time or frustration.



If that is the one conclusion that we have come to in this thread, then it's all been worth it.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Nov 30, 2004)

Bingo.


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 30, 2004)

camarosuper6 said:
			
		

> Lets not concern ourselves with Johnnny anymore. It is not worth the time or frustration.


Naw man. I find it fun and entertaining. I can practice my insults and trashtalk on him, then when I get good enough I'm coming to your journal


----------



## Rocco32 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Provided by Rockgazer*

Hey Johnnny-


----------



## Johnnny (Dec 1, 2004)

rock4832

I also said 





> You aren't an endocrinologist & I highly doubt you know any & someone as uneducated as yourself would even be able to comprehend what they are saying.





> I....just....can't.....stop.....crying!  Your made up story is soooo sad. Heres a Hanky to blow your nose-



All I have to say is you can cuck on my pussy juice soaked balls.

You are a fucking asshole, & you & Duncan are a perfect fit. You guys are made for eachother. You should start spending more "quality" time getting to know eachother "better".

I'm not making any of this stuff up.

As I stated I never had thyroid problems prior to using these ephedrine/ephedra supplements.

If you don't want to believe that, you can both go fuck yourselves & eachother while your at it.

Again none of you are an endocrinologist & many doctors don't know what the fuck they are doing.

It was doctors that gave my Mother Prednisone/Cortisone in 1982 w/o a calcium supplement that gave her Osteoporosis that she is bed ridden now.

The new doctor she has now says that the old doctor did not know what the fuck he's doing.

For many ppl women especially when taking high doses of prednisone/cortisone, it is required to also give a calcium supplement to protect the bones.

If it wasn't for that idiot doctor, she wouldn't be in as much trouble as she is now.

My endocrinologist has been doing it for the past 25yrs so I know she knows everything there is to know about the thyroid & it's behavior, & what drugs/supplements cause thyroid conditions & affect ppl who already have conditions.

I hope you guys take the ephedrine/ephedra supplements in a high quantity &  you guys develop a hyperthyroid & lose your physique's & see how it is.

Go fuck yourselves


----------



## min0 lee (Dec 1, 2004)

Johnny, please let it go. Why must you be so stubborn, you open yourself up for this.
If you like them use the ignore button, it's as simple as that.


----------



## Randy (Dec 1, 2004)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> If you like them use the ignore button, it's as simple as that.


Why would he add people he likes to the ignore list?    
I only put pricks on that list... GR81 is on mine. He's the only one right now I believe.. 

Most of the people I've encountered with disagreements have turned out to be pretty cool for the most part. I've never been one to hold a Grudge for most things, although in some circumstances some instances are not forgivable.

But you're right MinO. Subjects that you know will cause senseless arguments are best not mentioned. Things like religion, politics, Johnnny's routine (just kidding johnnny).  

Seriously though, I think if you people got to know Johnnny, he's a good guy.
We all have our faults.   When he believes in something he likes to hold on.
But that is not such a bad thing.


----------



## fifteecent (Dec 1, 2004)

*Debate Summary*

Hey I'd like to summarize this debate. It's pretty funny, even with the two people personally insulting each other. Basically one side says to *try* using compound back movements to build up your biceps and keep direct bicep work to a minimum. The other side understands that compound back exercises will give bicep growth, but to fully realize the potential of growth it is essential to do direct bicep work. From there on, Duncandonuts and someone else started accusing Johnny of being 'his way or the highway' and then the insults started flying. 

People tried proving both sides by saying their arms are so big from doing compound only exercises, everyone at their gym says this or that, etc.. 

Basically, this is a question of muscle recovery. Everyone's muscles recovery at a different rate. Differences in the type of stimulus also factors. This explains why some people only need some compound movements to isolate their biceps. Not only is this type of stimulus-recovery better for them, but they probably concentrate a lot on the biceps when lifting with back, recruiting more bicep motor fibers for the action.

As for the direct bicep work, I personally do many sets of biceps. I sometimes do up to 12 sets. Overtraining? It seems that is the general consensus in these boards, but really, 12 sets does not tell us very much about how much we are really doing. If the time under tension is actually fairly low, then 12 sets is not representative of the overtraining workout we all think it is. For individuals who recover fairly quickly from a back workout (or don't get much of a bicep workout from back), doing direct bicep work can be effective. Many people do it and get results from it. Will YOU get results from it? Maybe, but who really knows? Only yourself, so test out both methods and pick the one that gives you more gains.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Dec 1, 2004)

> 12 sets does not tell us very much about how much we are really doing. If the time under tension is actually fairly low, then 12 sets is not representative of the overtraining workout we all think it is.



We know that the central nervous system gets fried quite easily.  I'd assume that 12 sets is overtraining because if you even do that much at a moderate intensity you'd be subjected to some manner of cns pooping out.

If you were doing them all in a high intensity fashion, there'd be no doubt that you would be overtrained IMO...



> but they probably concentrate a lot on the biceps when lifting with back, recruiting more bicep motor fibers for the action.



The bicep is a link when working the lats.  That means if you are chinning 300 pounds, the biceps HAVE to be strong enough to work with said weight.  It's not a matter of focusing more on biceps, it is a matter of the biceps having to play a role in the lifting.



> Will YOU get results from it? Maybe, but who really knows? Only yourself, so test out both methods and pick the one that gives you more gains.



Of course you will get results from it, if done progressively.  Optimal results?  That's a topic for debate, but everyone will get results in one fashion or another.


----------



## Randy (Dec 1, 2004)

Fifteecent,

I agree with your statement. 
There are many factors to consider before coming to the conclusion that one method is better than another. As for back workouts like you say, some people may not be doing as an intense of a back workout as others, and may not be getting as much focus on their biceps. All these things can make a big difference in determining what is best for an individual. I'm not disagreeing with the others here either. Their points may well be valid for them. If you're doing very extensive back work that is working your biceps hard then it only makes sense to cut back on the direct bicep work to compensate for that. 

But as you stated...I think both arguments can be true here.

As for the overtraining consensus, well I hear that a lot too. I used to do 12 sets, and for me I seen some good gains, but doing that brought me into a 2 hour workout. It is my understanding that your testosterone shuts down after an hour. So I thought I would cut my sets down to 3 each exercise. Now I'm doing 9 sets and finishing around 1.5 hours. So I think the compromise seems to be working well for me.


----------



## min0 lee (Dec 1, 2004)

> Seriously though, I think if you people got to know Johnnny, he's a good guy.
> We all have our faults. When he believes in something he likes to hold on.
> But that is not such a bad thing.


 

I got to talk to him for a bit and he was pretty nice. 
Although, he can be as stubborn as a mule he sure stands firmly behind what he say's. Unlike others, who may agree with him prefer to stay quiet.


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 1, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> rock4832
> 
> I also said
> 
> ...


Gee Johnnny. Am I getting to you?!? Calm down, you don't want to get that hyperthyroidism running again do you?!?


----------



## fifteecent (Dec 1, 2004)

Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> We know that the central nervous system gets fried quite easily. I'd assume that 12 sets is overtraining because if you even do that much at a moderate intensity you'd be subjected to some manner of cns pooping out.


You'd assume that 12 sets is overtraining, but what is overtraining? Doing to many reps and sets? or not enough recovery?



			
				Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> If you were doing them all in a high intensity fashion, there'd be no doubt that you would be overtrained *IMO*...


"In your opinion" is key and let's stress that



			
				Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> The bicep is a link when working the lats. That means if you are chinning 300 pounds, the biceps HAVE to be strong enough to work with said weight. It's not a matter of focusing more on biceps, it is a matter of the biceps having to play a role in the lifting.


That's very true, chinups definately require you to flex your forearm a lot. But what about dumbell rows and barbell rows? You do not *necessarily* have to flex your forearm in its complete range of motion to pull your scapula back. But if you focus on your bicep like I said above, you can make this lift a full bicep motion.



			
				Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> Of course you will get results from it, if done progressively. Optimal results? That's a topic for debate, but everyone will get results in one fashion or another.


No debate in that you will get results from it. That's for sure, working back will recruit motor fibers from your biceps. Would it work your biceps enough to optimally cause strength and hypertrophy? uhh that's very personal.


----------



## Johnnny (Dec 2, 2004)

rock4832



> Gee Johnnny. Am I getting to you?!? Calm down, you don't want to get that hyperthyroidism running again do you?!?



No you are not getting to me.

But when ppl like you & your boy Duncan are being assholes laughing at someone else's medical condition THAT WAS CAUSED BY THOSE EPHEDRINE/EPHEDRA SUPPLEMENTS, I'm going to say something.

Neither of you are fucking endocrinologists nor do I believe that you ever worked with any.

You are just a conceited, uneducated prick.

I hope you get a hyperthyroid condition so you know what it's like.

Like I already said, for yrs my TSH was tested as apart of my annual blood work as the family doctor checked everything.

For yrs I never had a thyroid problem until I used those supplements.

& my endocrinologist had explained that those supplements can react badly in individuals hence giving them hyperthyroidism.


----------



## chris mason (Dec 2, 2004)

Your endocrinologist is wrong.

Before you go off about me not knowing about thyroid disease please be informed my wife is a Synthroid using hypothyroid individual.  

Now, if you already have thyroid problems then your body may handle stimulants differently than a perfectly healthy individual.  For instance, when my wife tried my company's thermogen which contains both caffeine and synephrine (the stimulants in the product) she got tired from it as opposed to stimulated.  We attributed this reaction to her thyroid problems and use of Synthroid.  That does NOT mean that stimulants can cause thyroid problems.   

I would suspect that your use of stimulants merely manifested your already existing underlying thyroid problems.


----------



## chris mason (Dec 2, 2004)

I think 12 sets for biceps for a drug-free individual would result in overtraining for most.  

If you are progressing nicely with that kind of volume then it is not gross overtraining for you.  You might find that you make even better progress with fewer sets.  If you don't then you are just one of those rare individuals with a high capacity for tolerating intense exercise.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Dec 2, 2004)

> "In your opinion" is key and let's stress that



Everyone knows that this is a discussion of opinion. In understanding the central nervous system and what intense training is, doing one set of balls to the wal 12 times in a day would probably leave someone outrageously "overtrained" for two or three weeks



> You'd assume that 12 sets is overtraining, but what is overtraining? Doing to many reps and sets? or not enough recovery?



Overtraining is training too much.  



> Would it work your biceps enough to optimally cause strength and hypertrophy? uhh that's very personal.



I don't think it would be optimal, I think an addition intensity set of so called "isolation" bicep curls would be a good addition done on a different day with as much weight as possible in good form.  I don't know what you mean by it's very personal, we are all bound by similar physiology within the realm of medical science


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 2, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> rock4832
> I hope you get a hyperthyroid condition so you know what it's like.


Thank you. And I hope to meet you some day!


----------



## Dmwrss (Dec 2, 2004)

my note to all this is that, everything works, but nothing works forever.  a muscle movement is a muscle being worked, its up to you whether or not you overload it correctly.


----------



## Johnnny (Dec 3, 2004)

Chris Mason



> Before you go off about me not knowing about thyroid disease please be
> informed my wife is a Synthroid using hypothyroid individual.
> 
> Now, if you already have thyroid problems then your body may handle
> ...



It's said to say that it looks like you're another one who can't read.


For years my family doctor performed annual blood work to ensure that I was healthy.

My family doctor also included a TSH blood test. & if you're not sure what that is, it's a blood test that checks the proper function of the thyroid.


With this said for YEARS I NEVER HAD A THYROID CONDITION EVER, NO PROBLEMS WHAT SO EVER UNTIL I USED THESE SUPPLEMENTS.

AND THAT'S WHEN THE VERY FIRST PROBLEM I had with my TSH test one summer.

The family doctor immediately sent me to my endocrinologist. The very first thing she asked me was if I was taking any drugs or supplements b/c she thought it was very strange that after all the years of a normal functioning thyroid that it would suddenly be thrown so high out of normal range.

I told her I had been taking the ephedrine/ephedra supplements.

Right away she told me that with some individuals using those supplements can have a permanent effect on their thyroid gland keeping their thyroid in the "hyper" state.

This is what happened to me.


As I explained already I was given a large dose of Iodine August 2003 which is why I gained weight as it shut down my body's thyroid production.

& it took about 5 months before I could take synthroid to replace the hormone. Which is why I gained weight & my waist went from 34 to 36 & why I got a bit fat.

But now that everything is stable I have managed to build back a descent amount of lost muscle, get my strength up for a descently strong 200lbs, get my waist back down to a 34 & have started to tighten up.


----------



## CowPimp (Dec 3, 2004)

He is trying to say that ephedra activated underlying thyroid problems, although they were lying dormant before.  Hence, ephedra isn't going to manifest thyroid problems in a totally healthy individual, but merely activate it in someone who has a propensity for thyroid problems.


----------



## Johnnny (Dec 3, 2004)

CowPimp



> He is trying to say that ephedra activated underlying thyroid problems, although they were lying dormant before.  Hence, ephedra isn't going to manifest thyroid problems in a totally healthy individual, but merely
> activate it in someone who has a propensity for thyroid problems.



You're another know it all who can't read.

I am going to spell it out in plan english.


I      NEVER           HAD        A        PRE-EXISTING        THYROID     CONDITION         PRIOR        TO          USING          THOSE        SUPPLEMENTS.


                       EVER.

Someone with a thyroid condition whether they know it or not is always picked up with a TSH test &/or thyroid scan.


I           NEVER          HAD         A          PROBLEM         WITH         BLOOD        WORK        BEFORE      USING       THOSE SUPPLEMENTS.


Just accept it.


Not everybody racts the same to drugs or supplements the same way.


There are drugs & supplements that cause health problems. Look at many of the steroidal anti-inflammitories.  They can cause health problems.

You are another one who thinks he's a medical professional. Just sad.

UP      UNTIL    USE    OF     THOSE    SUPPLEMENTS     I     WAS    %100        HEALTHY      FOR      YEARS.


----------



## min0 lee (Dec 3, 2004)




----------



## Cold Iron (Dec 3, 2004)

Fuck, let this thread die...im sick of looking at it


----------



## Johnnny (Dec 3, 2004)

Arnie's l nut



> Fuck, let this thread die...im sick of looking at it



I might consider it when ppl just accept that it was the ephedrine/ephedra supplements that caused my NON EXISTING THYROID CONDITION.


----------



## min0 lee (Dec 3, 2004)

Arnie's left nu said:
			
		

> Fuck, let this thread die...im sick of looking at it


----------



## min0 lee (Dec 3, 2004)

.


----------



## min0 lee (Dec 3, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Arnie's l nut
> 
> 
> 
> I might consider it when ppl just accept that it was the ephedrine/ephedra supplements that caused my NON EXISTING THYROID CONDITION.


Let it go......I'll give you a big kiss if you do....please


----------



## Johnnny (Dec 3, 2004)

Mino Lee



> Let it go......I'll give you a big kiss if you do....please



Maybe for you


----------



## min0 lee (Dec 3, 2004)

AW.....your so sweet


----------



## chris mason (Dec 3, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Chris Mason
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Ok guy, here is where I (the one who can't read) call BULLSHIT!!!

Why would your family doctor incorporate a TSH (Thyroid Stimulating Hormone --- yes, I know this shit) test as part of your normal checkups unless you had a family history of thyroid problems.  Guess what? He would NOT have.

Now, if you have a family history and thus a possible genetic predisposition to thyroid problems then I think it possible the stimulants somehow manifested a latent or underlying problem.  

Stimulants such as ephedra will not cause the problems you mentioned in healthy adults who do not incredibly overdose for an extended period (which makes all bets off).  

Your problem is you have a little knowledge and make your own ignorant conclusions based upon that knowledge.  Your endocrinologist may be right that some people react to stimulants in the manner you have described.  The part you miss is that those individuals have a genetic predisposition to thyroid problems which gets exascerbated or awakened by use/abuse of certain stimulants.


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 3, 2004)

I love calling Bullshit. It's easy to do with Johnnny since everything he says is bullshit.


----------



## Randy (Dec 3, 2004)

Mino...

What the hell is this.... "Max the Kellog Corn Flake Killer" or something? 
Oh wait.... I get it....Mass Serial (Cereal) Killer


----------



## CowPimp (Dec 3, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> CowPimp
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't get so testy.  I was trying to help clarify Chris Mason's statement.  He didn't say you had a pre-existing condition.  He said you had greater potential or an underlying disorder (As in something in your genetics that had to be activated by something in the environment).


----------



## fifteecent (Dec 3, 2004)

Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> Everyone knows that this is a discussion of opinion. In understanding the central nervous system and what intense training is, doing one set of balls to the wal 12 times in a day would probably leave someone outrageously "overtrained" for two or three weeks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please don't try and generalize "everyone's" opinion on something because many people do not believe what you think. The overall consensus on this board is that it would leave you overtrained but tons of people train with this method and do not get outrageously overtrained so what you say is false. 

Not only that but some also find that at 12 sets, this is not overtraining. It is relative as to what you consider 'too much'. there's no arguing this point, many recover much better than others and for the vast majority of people i know, working out on a biceps day does not hinder their growth and strength, it in fact strengthens it. In fact, I know a very well educated and knowledgable exercise physiologist who does 30 sets of biceps AFTER back. I didn't believe him until I saw it and there's no denying his biceps are not lacking nor does he exhibit overtraining symptoms.

Whether you think it is optimal or not doesn't matter. The facts speak for themselves. Although we are all physiologically similar, our variance in recovery speed and stimulus and motor fiber recruit differ. Comon, this is so obvious, don't try to convince yourself otherwise, it's basic physiology.


----------



## fifteecent (Dec 4, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Arnie's l nut
> 
> 
> 
> I might consider it when ppl just accept that it was the ephedrine/ephedra supplements that caused my NON EXISTING THYROID CONDITION.


Have fun trying to make people accept it. This will be an everlasting thread because not many people here like you so they won't want to believe you. And really, why would you care so much that people believe you about your thyroid condition. 

I'd also like to mention that people i've met in your situation have stopped caring if they really did have thyroid problems. The ones who persist and try to convince everyone are trying to convince because it is a lie and what fun is there in lying if nobody believes it?


----------



## Randy (Dec 4, 2004)




----------



## camarosuper6 (Dec 4, 2004)

> tons of people train with this method and do not get outrageously overtrained so what you say is false.



Tons of people also do the same weights year in and year out and never get any bigger. Probably about 3/4 of the people in your average gym fall into this catagory.



> Not only that but some also find that at 12 sets, this is not overtraining. It is relative as to what you consider 'too much'. there's no arguing this point, many recover much better than others and for the vast majority of people i know, working out on a biceps day does not hinder their growth and strength, it in fact strengthens it.



Some people also work out with little or no intensity, which is why they can get away with doing 12 sets for biceps and not overtrain.   If you workout with the kind of intensity someone like Duncan does, you would grossly overtrain at 12 sets.

WHEN you workout your biceps in your routine is your personal preference.



> In fact, I know a very well educated and knowledgable exercise physiologist who does 30 sets of biceps AFTER back. I didn't believe him until I saw it and there's no denying his biceps are not lacking nor does he exhibit overtraining symptoms.



Dont get Johnnny syndrome on us.  Just because A certain big person does a certain routine, that doesnt mean that routine is a sound one.  30 sets for biceps is uneccessary.  Maybe he does have good biceps. Maybe he is also on steroids. Maybe he is a dumbass.  There are a lot of smart people with good intensions in the world with very little actual knowlege.



> The facts speak for themselves



What facts are these?  If there were so many "facts" we wouldnt need this dicussion board.



> Although we are all physiologically similar, our variance in recovery speed and stimulus and motor fiber recruit differ. Comon, this is so obvious, don't try to convince yourself otherwise, it's basic physiology.



Basic physiology doesnt have anything to do with recovery speed.  However it does have to do with fiber recruitment, and unlike you just stated, there is a set pattern from smallest to largest in EVERY individual.  Fibers dont just start firing at random when you pick up a weight.  The heavier the weight, the more fibers recruited.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Dec 4, 2004)

> Whether you think it is optimal or not doesn't matter. The facts speak for themselves. Although we are all physiologically similar, our variance in recovery speed and stimulus and motor fiber recruit differ. Comon, this is so obvious, don't try to convince yourself otherwise, it's basic physiology.



Thanks for the lecture, professor. 

Try working out with high intensity for 12 sets.  If you can, you aren't really training hard.  There is an inverse relationship between duration and intensity.  This could probably be classified as fact -a good example is sprinting.  Sprint as hard as you can until you collapse.  Notice how you eventually collapse?  That's because your body can't maintain gut busting intensity for more than a short duration of time.

Now get up.  Do it again, until you collapse.  And again.  And again.  After the 3rd or 4rd set you're slow, in a lot of pain, feeling lactic acid burn, and puking your guts.  Of course, if you do this every day, not only will you not progressively get faster, you'll probably be sick and lose a great deal of muscle.

Nicely you ignored my point about intensity.

Clearly if you aren't working out hard you can do a lot of sets and still not be grossly overtrained.  This is a pump method, what a lot of bodybuilders can do on huge amounts of juice to get bigger without doing anything really hard relative to their capacity.




> Whether you think it is optimal or not doesn't matter. The facts speak for themselves



What are the facts again?  I must have missed them.  The fact that we all have similar physiology but um, different neurological activation patterns or something?  That we have different recovery rates?  I know that, but one in a million will be able to progress and benefit from vast number of sets at TRUE HIGH INTENSITY, without steroids.  

I agree, people who pump somewhat mindlessly with no true methodology can get away with a lot of sets.  But they probably won't progress that well (or OPTIMALLY well), unless they are on steroids.


----------



## Randy (Dec 4, 2004)

Damn.... A Camaro Duncan dogpile on the poor guy   

You all make good points though.


----------



## Johnnny (Dec 4, 2004)

Chris Mason



> Ok guy, here is where I (the one who can't read) call BULLSHIT!!!
> 
> Why would your family doctor incorporate a TSH (Thyroid Stimulating Hormone --- yes, I know this shit) test as part of your normal checkups unless you had a family history of thyroid problems. Guess what? He would NOT have.
> 
> ...



You don't know shit about shit regarding this.

As I explained my family doctor  LITERALLY CHECKED EVERYTHING, EVERY ANNUAL BLOOD TEST INCLUDING A TSH TO ENSURE EVERTYTHING WAS OKAY.

There is no family history of thyroid problems what so ever.

Like I already said I never had a condition active or dormant.

As for my family doctor he explained that he performs all the blood work written on those papers on EACH & EVERY PATIENT every annual blood test
WHETHER THEY HAVE A FAMILY HISTORY OF THOSE PROBLEMS OR NOT.

He is a thorough family doctor & believes in making sure "EVERYTHING" is fine whether his patient has a particular medical problem or not, whether their family has a history for a particular medical problem or not.

Just accept it that these supplements reacted badly with my system & gave me a hperthyroid condition with no prior thyroid condition.

Like it or not this is the way it is.


----------



## Randy (Dec 4, 2004)




----------



## BigDyl (Dec 4, 2004)

I still don't get high intensity Ducan.  If i do 1 set, like I think you say you do, right?  I can do the set and do as many reps as possible, the eccentric being controlled and the concetric being explosive.  However, are you doing something different to make this one set more intense.  You can only lift a weight so intense. 

However, i do agree with the low volume priciples.  I have been regualrly training larger muscle groups with around 6-8 sets.  I just don't think 1 would work for me.  Maybe I am missing something.


----------



## Randy (Dec 4, 2004)

I think when he means high intesity, he means lifting to failure with heavy ass weight.
Verses someone doing 9-12 sets of 10 reps each with light to medium weight.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Dec 4, 2004)

> I still don't get high intensity Ducan. If i do 1 set, like I think you say you do, right? I can do the set and do as many reps as possible, the eccentric being controlled and the concetric being explosive. However, are you doing something different to make this one set more intense. You can only lift a weight so intense.



There are methods to increase intensity (DOGG CRAPP methodology, in example), but doing one set to momentary muscle failure where another rep is impossible or forcing reps with a spotter is an intense set.  

Try doing a set of squats to where you literally can't do another rep.  That's high intensity, and it's painful and very few people do it right.



> I just don't think 1 would work for me.



I don't know why you think that, I believe it would work for everyone


----------



## BigDyl (Dec 4, 2004)

> I don't know why you think that, I believe it would work for everyone



Work, but would it be better than 6?



> That's high intensity, and it's painful and very few people do it right.



How do you do it right beyond getting to the point of muscle failure?

Also by muscle failure, you mean you cannot complete the next rep or that you muscle stops working and you cannot lift ANY weight period?


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Dec 4, 2004)

I don't know exactly why 6 would be better?  For some reason you feel that doing 6 sets (BTW, if you did tried 6 sets of Squats in true intensity fashion, you'd probably never workout again) will offer more benefit than one, but if you're really going balls to wall you will be seriously overtrained..

I believed Chris Mason was a fan of HIT for a long time and then switched to a different lower volume routine that wasn't to failure.  A lot of the times one true intense set will leave your CNS completely fried for upwards of a month...imagine what 4, 5 or more could do.

Muscle failure just means that you can't finish a rep even though you try as hard as you can.


----------



## BigDyl (Dec 4, 2004)

Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> I don't know exactly why 6 would be better?  For some reason you feel that doing 6 sets (BTW, if you did tried 6 sets of Squats in true intensity fashion, you'd probably never workout again) will offer more benefit than one, but if you're really going balls to wall you will be seriously overtrained..




I understand this from reading some Mentzer articles.  Say that 1 set done properly is enough.  You say 6 sets high intensity is too much.  Maybe I'm not getting what high intesity is because i feel that I have done that before, and I didnt feel like I wasnt going to work out again...


----------



## BigDyl (Dec 4, 2004)

Essentially when you follow Mentzer, you are saying there are many ways to build a body with weights, but only one is the best for promoting hypertrophy.  And, while many people on here feel it is nessasary to change there workouts so that they stay effective, like P/RR/S, the HIT method never needs to change because the one intense set sends the message to the muscle to grow.  

Beyond that, I don't know what to think.  Why are people sucessfull doing more volume at all?  For instance, people like GoPro.  (sorry if I sound like Johnny)  I'm not trying to argue any case, but I see both ways as being sucessfull, is it that one is better than the other, or one is wrong, and the other right.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Dec 4, 2004)

Frankly, I don't care what you believe or what you do.  Progressive resistance is progressive resistance.  If done correctly, one set is enough.


----------



## BigDyl (Dec 4, 2004)

I'm not trying to argue man, more of a discussion rather than arguement.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Dec 4, 2004)

I believe single set (along with high intensity methods) training and maximal intensity is the best way to improve one's functional, full ROM of strength.  Hypertrophy will follow if you are eating right.

Other methods work, and I've done other methods, and I believe HIT far superior.  That doesn't mean others don't work.


----------



## BigDyl (Dec 4, 2004)

Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> I believe single set (along with high intensity methods) training and maximal intensity is the best way to improve one's functional, full ROM of strength.  Hypertrophy will follow if you are eating right.
> 
> Other methods work, and I've done other methods, and I believe HIT far superior.  That doesn't mean others don't work.


----------



## CowPimp (Dec 4, 2004)

It seems to me like a spotter is an absolute necessity for HIT to work properly.  Do you agree, or do you think it's pretty workable without one?


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 4, 2004)

Some exercises HIT can be done properly w/o a spotter IMO.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Dec 5, 2004)

I always have a spotter, except on leg day.  I think forced reps are essential so most pressing movements require a spotter.

Squats, Deadlifts, Curls, Pullups, Negative Pullups don't require one.  Bench, Military presses do.


----------



## Johnnny (Dec 5, 2004)

I think I'm going to lower my bicep volume slightly but still keep it at a HIT training pace as usual.

I may start doing biceps twice a week to see if it makes a difference.

I've never trained biceps or triceps more than once a week.


----------



## chris mason (Dec 5, 2004)

Ok Johnny, I don't know shit about shit. 


I do know that I just did a search on PubMed.com, The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (which I subscribe to), and The American Journal of Physiology --- Endocrinology and Metabolism using the key words; ephedra, ephedrine, hyperthyroid, and hyperthyroidism.  *These searches yielded NO results*.  

What that means is that there is essentially no evidence that ephedra and ephedrine based products can cause hyperthyroidism.  

So, once again, I call bullshit.  

Do you realize that your family doctor and or endocrinologist have very little nutritional training?  What you accept as fact from your doctor (unless you are lying about the whole matter which is possible) is likely no more than their own conjecture...


----------



## camarosuper6 (Dec 5, 2004)

Johnnny, why dont you try it true HIT style and do only one set of high intensity bicep curls and see how you like it?  Give it a shot for a month or two and see if your biceps dont grow. The first time I lowered my volume and upped my arm intensity, I saw nearly 1/2 inch in growth (granted this was almost 2 years ago) but the higher intensity, lower volume will make you think twice about you current program.  Trust me.


----------



## Johnnny (Dec 5, 2004)

Chris Mason



> I do know that I just did a search on PubMed.com, The American Journal
> of Clinical Nutrition (which I subscribe to), and The American Journal
> of Physiology --- Endocrinology and Metabolism using the key words;
> ephedra, ephedrine, hyperthyroid, and hyperthyroidism.  These searches
> ...



The internet isn't always a reliable source especially when it's medically related.

I'm still trusting my family doctor & endocrinologists.

As with the numerous times I've already said that my family has never had a history of thyroid problems, nor have I ever had thyroid problems until using those supplements.

I will repeat again, with the years of TSH blood tests as apart of our family doctor's annual blood work on his patients, a pre-existing thyroid condition was never found.

Those supplements my endocrinologist explained raise your thyroid levels, & in some individuals the thyroid levels remain high causing permanent hyper thyroid.

Same goes for hardcore steroid using bodybuilders who use T3 & T4 thyroid hormones during their cutting regime.

Seeing how they have no thyroid problem, their thyroid's will suffer permanent damaged with extended use.

Same goes for me if I take too much synthroid, I will be in the hyper thyroid state.


CamaroSuper6



> Johnnny, why dont you try it true HIT style and do only one set of high intensity bicep curls and see how you like it? Give it a shot for a month or two and see if your biceps dont grow. The first time I lowered my volume and upped my arm intensity, I saw nearly 1/2 inch in growth (granted this was almost 2 years ago) but the higher intensity, lower volume will make you think twice about you current program. Trust me.



Just one set for biceps?

I just don't think that will work for me.

I like a variety of bicep exercises, angles & grips. Which is why I do a couple sets of barbell or standing db curls, some sort of hammer curl for a couple sets, & a couple sets of preacher or concentration curls.

One set just doesn't sound like enough.


----------



## Rocco32 (Dec 5, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Just one set for biceps?
> 
> I just don't think that will work for me.
> 
> ...


First off, you don't know till you try. Just "thinking" it won't work isn't enough. And second off WHY DO YOU REPEAT YOURSELF CONSTANTLY?!? Do you think we don't know what you do for your bi's yet?!? We've read 





> I like a variety of bicep exercises, angles & grips. Which is why I do a couple sets of barbell or standing db curls, some sort of hammer curl for a couple sets, & a couple sets of preacher or concentration curls.


 a million times already. Learn to say something once and move on.


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## soxmuscle (Dec 5, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Just one set for biceps?
> 
> I just don't think that will work for me.
> 
> ...


I don't have a complete HIT routine, but have adopted the low volume, high intensity principles and absolutely love it despite having the same attitude you have at one point in time.

If your working hard enough, and your not giving up until you can't physically do anymore, you'll explode as I hope I do.


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## BigDyl (Dec 5, 2004)

Yeah 1 set doesnt **sound** like enough to me, but i respect the Mentzer principles, and I will not say it does not work until I try it, which I am planning on doing.


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## CowPimp (Dec 5, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Just one set for biceps?
> 
> I just don't think that will work for me.
> 
> ...



I was a little skeptical myself, but after seeing the results of various people that have tried HIT training, it looks extremely promising.  Duncans Donuts, soxmuscle, yellowmooma, and rock4832 are all excellent examples.

I feel that giving it a try can't hurt anything.  After my second cycle of Westside, I'm leaning towards HIT as the next protocol of choice.


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## BigDyl (Dec 6, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> I feel that giving it a try can't hurt anything.  After my second cycle of Westside, I'm leaning towards HIT as the next protocol of choice.




You and me, both.  I'm going to do a HIT cycle.  

Hey, you live pretty close to me btw...


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## Johnnny (Dec 6, 2004)

Cowpimp



> I was a little skeptical myself, but after seeing the results of various people that have tried HIT training, it looks extremely promising. Duncans Donuts, soxmuscle, yellowmooma, and rock4832 are all excellent examples.
> 
> I feel that giving it a try can't hurt anything. After my second cycle of Westside, I'm leaning towards HIT as the next protocol of choice.



I'll take it under advisement.


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## camarosuper6 (Dec 6, 2004)

Trust me. Low volume-High intensity training works. If I could show u my before and after pics, and Duncans before and after pics, youd probably freak out.


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## camarosuper6 (Dec 6, 2004)

And I dont say that to brag, Im just saying our condition IMPROVED so much it would make you gag.


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## CowPimp (Dec 6, 2004)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> Hey, you live pretty close to me btw...



Where do you live?


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## Rocco32 (Dec 6, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Where do you live?


Yeah, where do you live?


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## BigDyl (Dec 7, 2004)

I'm located in Easton, MD right now.  I often find myself in Hanover and Annopolis however...


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## CowPimp (Dec 7, 2004)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> I'm located in Easton, MD right now.  I often find myself in Hanover and Annopolis however...



Ah, Easton.  I've never been around there.  What do you think of it?


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## BigDyl (Dec 7, 2004)

It's a small eccentric town--it is the Eastern shore after all.  You in DC, right?


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## Rocco32 (Dec 7, 2004)

I'm in DC.


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## BigDyl (Dec 7, 2004)

Cool, I usually get sent to DC once a month or so because of my job.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 7, 2004)

Cool, how far away is Easton from DC?


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## BigDyl (Dec 7, 2004)

70 miles I think.  Do you and Cow lift together?


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## CowPimp (Dec 7, 2004)

Nope.  I've never met the guy.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 7, 2004)

I don't think I could hang with Cowpimp, have you seen his journal!


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## CowPimp (Dec 8, 2004)

rock4832 said:
			
		

> I don't think I could hang with Cowpimp, have you seen his journal!



Haha, thanks rock.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 8, 2004)

No problem buddy, it's all you!


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## Randy (Dec 8, 2004)

rock4832 said:
			
		

> I don't think I could hang with Cowpimp, have you seen his journal!


Cow's just building up cause he got tired of everyone tipping him on a Friday night


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## Randy (Dec 8, 2004)

http://www.goofyfun.com/1/tip.htm


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## Randy (Dec 8, 2004)

The true art of cow tipping


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## BoneCrusher (Dec 10, 2004)

rock4832 said:
			
		

> I don't think I could hang with Cowpimp, have you seen his journal!


 CowPimp and Mudge's journals are like a guide to mass reconstruction with out all the hype.  Just eating, grunting, and a little humor all thrown in together.  If a new guy is smart he will read every fricking word of it too!


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## sgtneo (Dec 10, 2004)

after reading through the majority of this convo i have to say to jonnny that when ever you lift some thing or do excersise with your arms or back you usually use both in conjunction with each other. 

Hence the thrase put your back in to it

Neo


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## CowPimp (Dec 10, 2004)

BoneCrusher said:
			
		

> CowPimp and Mudge's journals are like a guide to mass reconstruction with out all the hype.  Just eating, grunting, and a little humor all thrown in together.  If a new guy is smart he will read every fricking word of it too!



Haha, thanks.


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## RexStunnahH (Dec 23, 2004)

I love doing Standing preacher curls on the opposite side of the bench so my arms hang straight down-They have a name for it,But I don't know it.I just voted for hammers cause it's my 2nd fav.


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## GIZmo_Timme (Dec 23, 2004)

i think they call them spider curls


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## mkWolf (Dec 25, 2004)

Umm guys, anybody try the Zottman Curls??
I incorporated them into my routine about a month ago, and ever since i have actually stretched my bicep were i can see the skin twist when i flex nicely and adds monstrous size for me.


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## GIZmo_Timme (Dec 25, 2004)

how do you do Zottman Curls?


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## mkWolf (Dec 25, 2004)

This is an excerpt from www.bodybuilding.com Exercise Section

Zottman Curl

Exercise Data
Main Muscle Worked: Biceps
Other Muscles Worked: Forearms
Equipment: Dumbbell
Mechanics Type: Isolation




Tips: Hold two dumbbells at arm's length and stand straight up. Turn your palms up and curl both dumbbells up toward your shoulder. Keep your upper arms against your side at all times! When you reach the top, rotate your wrists so that your palm faces almost straight down. Your thumb will be a little higher than your pinky. Go back to the starting position and repeat. You can also do these one arm at a time alternately or over a preacher bench.

Link with Pictures here ->
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exe...e=Biceps&Equip=Dumbbell&Isolation=&order=Name


I do these single handedly 1 arm at a time, and i find it very effective.


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## CowPimp (Sep 15, 2005)

I just flipped through this thread.  It almost makes me miss Johnnny, sort of.  Haha.


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## GFR (Sep 15, 2005)

No such thing as best.


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## doeslayer (Sep 15, 2005)

Dumbell preacher curls are my favorite.  But I also incorporate standing ez bar curls, concentration curls, and alternating dumbell curls.  I try to switch the order at least every few weeks.


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## AKIRA (Sep 19, 2005)

Ok I give up, whats HIT training?  I might have it covered...but might as well ask...

Is HIT training doing 1 set of one excercise for a body part?  Like..since we are on arms... 1 set of barbell curls, then 1 set of dumbell curls, then 1 set of zottman curls etc.  Just using REAL heavy weight reps of...i dont know.

Please dont say its just 1 set, 1 excercise, for 1 bodybpart...


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## CowPimp (Sep 19, 2005)

AKIRA said:
			
		

> Ok I give up, whats HIT training?  I might have it covered...but might as well ask...
> 
> Is HIT training doing 1 set of one excercise for a body part?  Like..since we are on arms... 1 set of barbell curls, then 1 set of dumbell curls, then 1 set of zottman curls etc.  Just using REAL heavy weight reps of...i dont know.
> 
> Please dont say its just 1 set, 1 excercise, for 1 bodybpart...



It depends what kind of split you do.  If it's a full body routine, then yes, you do 1 set of 1 exercise for a body part in a workout.  If it's a split routine, then you will probably do 2-3 movements for a body part.


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## Dale Mabry (Sep 21, 2005)

HIT is for fat lazy people who needed to adopt a training philosophy.  Mike Mentzer and a few pros lied and said they were doing it so that fat asses could justify not putting in actual work.   


This was my attempt at bringing Duncan Donuts back.


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## CowPimp (Sep 21, 2005)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> HIT is for fat lazy people who needed to adopt a training philosophy.  Mike Mentzer and a few pros lied and said they were doing it so that fat asses could justify not putting in actual work.
> 
> 
> This was my attempt at bringing Duncan Donuts back.



Hahaha.  I wish he'd come back too.  He's a smart guy with a lot to offer.  He just can't take some of the douche baggery that goes on.


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## camarosuper6 (Sep 21, 2005)

LOL... Imma go tell him. He's out in the garage working out as we speak I believe


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## camarosuper6 (Sep 21, 2005)

I still use HIT style training.  I love it. Although I hate full body routines.  I dont have the stamina nor the patience.


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## Squaggleboggin (Sep 23, 2005)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Hahaha. I wish he'd come back too. He's a smart guy with a lot to offer. He just can't take some of the douche baggery that goes on.


 I kind of forgot about him. He definitely contributed a lot to the forum. How long has it been since he's been here? I hate how a few people always ruin it for the rest. It's kind of like in elementary school how if one kid misbehaves everyone has to stay inside for recess. Why?! That was so cruel... Those other kids didn't even do anything...


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## SuperFlex (Sep 23, 2005)

Olympic straight bar curls... 6-8 reps!


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## goal_500_bench (Sep 25, 2005)

fUnc17 said:
			
		

> I prefer preacher curls standing up over an inclined bench


 Yea preacher curls are good.  How much weight can you lift on preacher curls.


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## mr_oo3 (Oct 7, 2005)

Supination DB curls.  With your grip right at the bottom/top of the DB.


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## smallfry (Oct 12, 2005)

Im gonna tell yall what i know... your body is and adapting tool its as natural as instincts matteroffact i think it is ....you have to switch up your rountine now you can like a practicular execrise better than the other but every exercise has its purpose and does their purpose well now the object of getting big is to have a routine with all of them i dont see how but for every muscle group you need an exercise . Most of yall know what i m talking about . Everyone has their favorite exercise rountine but they dont alwayz works becuz your body adapts to the problem stress resistence so all and all there is no better exercise than the other


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## slider (Oct 21, 2005)

you should change you bicep work out every 2 -3 weeks they are smart ass muscle and figure out how to cheat fast limiting your growth


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## CowPimp (Oct 21, 2005)

slider said:
			
		

> you should change you bicep work out every 2 -3 weeks they are smart ass muscle and figure out how to cheat fast limiting your growth



Bahahaha.


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## GFR (Oct 25, 2005)

slider said:
			
		

> you should *change you bicep work out every 2 -3 weeks* they are smart ass muscle and figure out how to cheat fast limiting your growth


I think every 2 or 3 days would be better


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## swordfish (Nov 7, 2005)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Hahaha.  I wish he'd come back too.  He's a smart guy with a lot to offer.  He just can't take some of the douche baggery that goes on.


 
Who is Duncan Donuts?


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## Squaggleboggin (Nov 7, 2005)

swordfish said:
			
		

> Who is Duncan Donuts?


 A member of the forum who no longer (to my knowledge) posts here because some of the people are just idiots.


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## GFR (Nov 7, 2005)

Squaggleboggin said:
			
		

> A member of the forum who no longer (to my knowledge) posts here because some of the people are just idiots.


actually I think its because DD was a rude arrogant child......but thats just my opinion


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## Squaggleboggin (Nov 7, 2005)

Of course, I'm sure none of us know anyone on here who's an idiot in any way...


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## GFR (Nov 7, 2005)

I can think of one


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## min0 lee (Nov 18, 2005)

I enjoy reading Cows and Squags posts to name a few.
Some people tend to talk down to you or talk big to make themselves feel Superior


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## BigDyl (Nov 18, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> I enjoy reading Cows and Squags posts to name a few.
> Some people tend to talk down to you or talk big to make themselves feel Superior




Shut up, Hobbit!


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## min0 lee (Nov 18, 2005)




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## BigDyl (Nov 20, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

>




Shut up, Gremlin!


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## Squaggleboggin (Dec 2, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> I enjoy reading Cows and Squags posts to name a few.
> Some people tend to talk down to you or talk big to make themselves feel Superior


 Shut up, fool. Speak not of my greatness. You obviously wouldn't know what it's like to be superior to anyone or anything. Shut up and let the big boys talk, and be quiet too.

 I couldn't even type that with a straight face, yet I've seen similar things posted here... Directed towards me... Seriously... Hahahaha... So annoying... I'm going to stop with the ellipses now before I get carried away... Damn it...


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## NeilPearson (Dec 5, 2005)

Personally I do bicep exercises but only 1-2 sets.  And I do them on my back day after I have blasted my biceps with the back work.  Most of the bicep work actually comes from my back exercises.  I just do that extra 1-2 bicep sets to finish them off.  It probably isn't necessary though.  I would think that waiting a couple days and hitting the biceps again would just overtrain them...  I need my time to heal.  So I hit them hard, once a week, with my back.


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## Squaggleboggin (Dec 6, 2005)

Yeah I don't do one exercise for my arms specifically. There's just something about compound exercises that makes me want to skip.


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## woogly (Feb 16, 2006)

i have a question re bicep curls but i'm not sure if this is the right place to ask.

anyways, i can curl 8 reps of 40lb if my arms are not tired from doing other exercises, but at the end of my workout (which is usually when i do biceps) i can barely manage 4-5 reps . should i be using a lesser weight so i get to the 8-12 rep range?

thanks


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## arbntmare (Mar 1, 2006)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> Personally I do bicep exercises but only 1-2 sets.  And I do them on my back day after I have blasted my biceps with the back work.  Most of the bicep work actually comes from my back exercises.  I just do that extra 1-2 bicep sets to finish them off.  It probably isn't necessary though.  I would think that waiting a couple days and hitting the biceps again would just overtrain them...  I need my time to heal.  So I hit them hard, once a week, with my back.




i probably over train my biceps.. but i do about 12 sets a week of pure biceps. 

during chest day i do 3 sets of barbell curls, and 3 sets of preacher curls
on shoulder day i do about 3 sets of curls lying on incline bench, and 3 sets of hammer curls or 3 sets of preacher curls.

should i cut some...

on my back day i only do back and triceps (6-7 sets).


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## biggun1234 (Apr 10, 2006)

My wrestling team had to do 20 chinups everytime we had a water break. Also, we did them while weight training...and I must say, we didn't suck.


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## Duncans Donuts (May 22, 2006)

I hate curls.  People obsess over them.  I do 2 exercises, 2-3 sets, the first exercise is a constant for 2 months and the second changes every 2 weeks.  I curled 165 pounds in good form on an ez curl bar two days ago 6 times.  My connective tissue feels like it's going to tear at such a weight.  Every time I try and increase it I lose form.  It gets to a point where you'll get a better workout doing compound rows/chins or pre-exhaust/super set type work on your biceps.


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## GFR (May 30, 2006)

Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> I hate curls.  People obsess over them.  I do 2 exercises, 2-3 sets, the first exercise is a constant for 2 months and the second changes every 2 weeks.*  I curled 165 pounds in good form on an ez curl bar two days ago 6 times*.  My connective tissue feels like it's going to tear at such a weight.  Every time I try and increase it I lose form.  It gets to a point where you'll get a better workout doing compound rows/chins or pre-exhaust/super set type work on your biceps.


I curled 166 pounds in good form with an ez curl bar for 7 reps three days ago.


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