# ?? for w8!



## cassidy ptomey (Mar 13, 2003)

You provide great information! (lots of food for thought)
However I think I'm getting an overload on some info I'm getting confussed I read that whey concentrates and isolates
were single species protein and whould burn as energy.
does that mean I should being taking a combination of things????
and if so do you have any favorites sorry to be so slow  at learning this stuff Again thanks for the great help!!

cassidy


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## w8lifter (Mar 13, 2003)

Yes...whey protein gets absorbed quickly...which is why we generally add a fat source to the meal...such as 3 tbsp cream or 1 tbsp flax   you could use any kind of low carb whey protein...just make sure you have it w/ 10-15g fat and a high fibre carb.


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## shwaym (Mar 13, 2003)

dont you want it to absorb as quickly as possible post workout though?


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## w8lifter (Mar 13, 2003)

depends on your goals


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## Arnold (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by shwaym *_
> dont you want it to absorb as quickly as possible post workout though?



if you're trying to build muscle, yes.


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## w8lifter (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> if you're trying to build muscle, yes.




I'm always trying to build muscle...and have quite successfully...and I NEVER take protein powder w/o at least 10g of fat.


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## Arnold (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by w8lifter *_
> I'm always trying to build muscle...and have quite successfully...and I NEVER take protein powder w/o at least 10g of fat.



sorry, but post work-out whey with 10 grams of fat defeats the purpose w8lifter.

post work-out you do not want to slow down absoprtion (I am talking within the first 30 mintes).


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> sorry, but post work-out whey with 10 grams of fat defeats the purpose w8lifter.
> 
> post work-out you do not want to slow down absoprtion (I am talking within the first 30 mintes).




Fuck.

I agree with Prince again.  

Of course, I am taking this in the context of building muscle as *the primary goal*.  In which case dextrose/maltodextrine should be added.

Were the primary goal fatloss, I'd have a different opinion, but that is not the context to which Prince is addressing.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

Yeah, but she doesn't take carbs with her post w/o shake.

She does bi-weekly carb loads.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

I know.  I wasn't really addressing that aspect of it.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

Well the post w/o carbs/protein serves as a means to switch off cortisol after training. It's not necessarily an anabolic method as much it is an anti-catabolic method.

Protein synthesis is ramped up for up to 36 hours post workout so whether you take a post w/o shake is quite irrelevant anyway. it's mainly the overall calories, although i do believe it can help in deciding the eventual muscle to fat gained ratio.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

by the way, for clarity, i am pro-carbs/pro psot w/o but i'm certainly not against pro/fat post w/o either - providing you're doing some sort of regular carb loads somewhere.


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## Arnold (Mar 14, 2003)

I guess the way I would view this is if you're on a low carb diet typically that would mean that you're cutting, so your goal is to preserve LBM, not build (assuming you're natural  ).

If you're goal is to gain mass/bulk you should be consuming carbs otherwise you're short changing your gains, so my answer was strictly from a gaining size/mass standpoint.

I am too lazy to rewrite this into my own words, so I will just copy/paste:
_
Obtaining results from drug-free athletic training depends heavily on how you manage your body's secretion of the hormone insulin. The presence of insulin is critical to creating and maintaining the body's natural anabolic drive(1). The anabolic drive is the synergistic interaction of anabolic hormones, growth factors and nutrients that control muscle growth. No one has figured out exactly how it all works, however, insulin is a key component and it influences every muscle building pathway in our physiology. 

Most athletes are aware that insulin facilitates transportation of nutrients into cells. However, not many know that insulin also works in tandem with growth hormone secretion and interacts synergistically with the thyroid hormone T4 within the liver to produce the potent but short-lived muscle growth factors, particularly Insulin-like Growth Factor-1 (2). This is the growth factor that builds big muscle. 

Insulin-like Growth Factor-1 (IGF-1) requires lots of insulin to work and prolong its active life (1,3). Some research demonstrates that insulin enhances the entire anabolic hormonal profile after intense exercise (5). Maintaining this anabolic drive during the day, every day, is dependent upon steady-state insulin levels (3,4). Therefore your food choices every day completely and utterly govern your fat burning, muscle building results.
*
Poor food choices after training or a haphazard approach to your diet create surging and plummeting blood sugar and insulin levels. This short circuits your anabolic drive and stops your bodybuilding or body shaping efforts dead in their tracks.

Insulin is secreted into the bloodstream in response to the foods we eat. Foods high in carbohydrates have the greatest impact on blood sugar and insulin (6). Therefore, your carbohydrate selection during the day and night can make or break your results.*_ 

- by Paul Cribb, B.H.Sci HMS / AST Director of Research


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## Arnold (Mar 14, 2003)

another:

_*Anabolic Nutrient Timing Rule #1. *

After training get blood glucose and insulin levels up, quickly!
Intense exercise drops blood sugar levels about as low as the integrity of your average tabloid journalist. That is bad news! It means that blood insulin levels plummet also. Low blood sugar and insulin levels trigger the release of the catabolic hormones (glucagon and cortisol) to restore vital blood glucose levels. After training, restoration of blood glucose and energy is the number one priority of our physiology. 

Unless the right nutritional material is present, the body will mobilize and sacrifice muscle amino acids in an attempt to restore glucose (energy) levels(3). This is muscle catabolism, and in terms of trying to build muscle, you've got to avoid this condition.

To immediately shift metabolic mechanisms toward muscle recovery and growth, your first priority after training should be to get blood glucose and insulin levels up quickly(2). To do this, consume a dose of simple, easily digested liquid carbohydrates after training (around 0.5 of a gram per kilogram of body weight). 

The best carbs at this time are juices with higher sucrose to fructose content such as grape, orange, tangerine. They produce more rapid rise in blood sugar levels and are better choices than apple, grapefruit or pear juices, which have a higher fructose to sucrose ratio (4). 

Most sports drinks contain a 10% or less carbohydrate concentration (sucrose and maltodextrin) therefore, they elevate blood sugar effectively. They're an excellent choice for the immediate post workout period and provide that insulin "spike" we're after.(4) 

The 10% or less carbohydrate concentration in solution is optimal for rapid emptying from the stomach into the blood stream. The Gatorade Institute realized this long ago when it formulated its now famous sports drink. 

A simple carbohydrate drink will elevate insulin levels nicely, directly after training (the first half of creating the optimal biochemical environment). Now we must supply an abundance of the right protein directly to the muscles at precisely this time. _

- by Paul Cribb, B.H.Sci HMS / AST Director of Research


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

Sucrose to fructose content?

Not sure if that should be dextrose to fructose, since sucrose is actually half fructose.

Anyhoo, those abstracts seem to going off that all anabolism happens then and there and if you miss it then you're fucked.

The body regulates itself over time, so growth benefits don't necessarily have to come instantly. like i mentioned before, protein synthesis is elevated in the muscle for up to 36 hours after training, so providing you're doing regular carb ups (as mentioned earlier), and your overall calories are there, there's no real problem avoiding carbs post w/o, even from a mass gaining point of view. But as i also said earlier, i am pro-post w/o carbs.

I also think trying to take advantage of the hGH increases that come with training, by avoiding carbs, is quite pointless on a gain anyway, since the overall calories will be in surplus.

But some people prefer it, so power to them.


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## P-funk (Mar 14, 2003)

I think that post w/o carbs are all a matter of preference.  The only time I use fat post w/o is during the last week or two of a cut, when I have dropped my cabs completly (with the exception of 2 carb ups per week).  Other than that I like oatmeal with my post workout shake.  I used to use higher glycemic carbs and I have tried dextrose in the past but I don't like to spike insulin levels that much anymore.  I try and keep them stable throughout the day and have seen better results.  It is just a preference thing.  I don't think anyone is right or wrong here.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by P-funk *_
> I think that post w/o carbs are all a matter of preference.  The only time I use fat post w/o is during the last week or two of a cut, when I have dropped my cabs completly (with the exception of 2 carb ups per week).  Other than that I like oatmeal with my post workout shake.  I used to use higher glycemic carbs and I have tried dextrose in the past but I don't like to spike insulin levels that much anymore.  I try and keep them stable throughout the day and have seen better results.  It is just a preference thing.  I don't think anyone is right or wrong here.



There is in fact a right or wrong, I just don't think anyone has quite figured it out yet, so we are left to debate it.

But this is clearly something that should be able to be proven through scientific evidence.


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## Arnold (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by P-funk *_
> I don't think anyone is right or wrong here.



from what is currently "known" I think there is more evidence/support that carbs post work-out are a better choice for muscle gain, not fat.


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## P-funk (Mar 14, 2003)

> There is in fact a right or wrong, I just don't think anyone has quite figured it out yet, so we are left to debate it.
> 
> But this is clearly something that should be able to be proven through scientific evidence.



I agree.  Like a lot of things in bodybuilding I think you have to go with tried and true.  Do what ever is going to help you achieve the best results.  It is an interesting topic of debate though.

The reason why I say that no one is right or wrong because I see people going with both approaches and seeing great results.  There are some people with some really strange diet approaches but they seem to work out for them.  I know the people at Beverly International don't promote a post workout insulin spike(at least from the info I have read).  They say slow burning carbs, even post w/o, are the way to go.  I can't argue with that becuase look at the people who have followed those diets, they have great results.  I know that a lot of the guys at avant labs are all about post w/o insulin spikes and dextrose.  You can't argue with them either becuase they really have there stuff together and it seems to be working for them.

Just like training I think it is good to try a number of approaches and see which one gives you the best results.


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## P-funk (Mar 14, 2003)

> from what is currently "known" I think there is more evidence/support that carbs post work-out are a better choice for muscle gain, not fat.



I never said that carbs post w/o out were worse than fat for muscle gain.  I was saying the only time I use the fat is the last two weeks of my cut when I drop carbs.  That is the only time I would ever use fat.   What I was referring to with that statment was no one is right or wrong about the type of carbs (slow burning or High GI/dextrose) post w/o.  

But I am definetly pro carbs post w/o.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by P-funk *_
> The reason why I say that no one is right or wrong because I see people going with both approaches and seeing great results.  There are some people with some really strange diet approaches but they seem to work out for them.



There are always a number of ways to do things, typically there is only one optimal way (or at least only one for a specific person).


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## P-funk (Mar 14, 2003)

> There are always a number of ways to do things, typically there is only one optimal way (or at least only one for a specific person).



bingo


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## cassidy ptomey (Mar 14, 2003)

Thanks guys!Thats a lot of info for a newbie, but I love the debate! I have only just begun this program so I'm not sure what works for me yet. I was presently only taking a protein drink after workouts.(short and sweet ) Do you recommend adding the fat to build and tone your body???

thanks,cassidy


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## P-funk (Mar 14, 2003)

I recommend some sort of carb (either slow burning or high GI) post w/o instead of the fat.


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## shwaym (Mar 14, 2003)

i attempt to create an insulin spike post workout because the logic behind it seems to make the most sense.
i have 2 servings protein powder in water, simplest carbs available, & tuna post workout.  i have plenty of good fats other times of the day just not post workout.


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## P-funk (Mar 14, 2003)

> i attempt to create an insulin spike post workout because the logic behind it seems to make the most sense.



It makes the most sense depending on your goals.  If fat loss is your goal, ie if you are cutting, then an insulin spike is going to put a stop to fat burning for a certain amount of time.  That is why I choose slowburning carbs when cutting.  To keep my insulin levels stable.


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## w8lifter (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> sorry, but post work-out whey with 10 grams of fat defeats the purpose w8lifter.
> 
> post work-out you do not want to slow down absoprtion (I am talking within the first 30 mintes).




I don't think it defeats any purpose. I have not had a PWO spike in a year....and I've gained more muscle this year than I ever have. I've read all about the studies you've posted, I know what the "norm" is, I still don't believe taking fat post workout will hinder muscle gain. That said, I am certainly not against "slow-burning carbs" post workout, and I might even consider the absence of fat as a diet tweak..._if_ it were needed....but as I said previously....it depends on your goals, among other things.


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## Yanick (Mar 14, 2003)

I was just thinking about all of this...not wanting to ring in because every time we have this debate the same things are said and noone is ever convinced.  

I was just wondering (and i think this is the key to the debate), if we need insulin to 'switch off' cortisol post w/o...how much insulin is really needed? I mean do we really need to spike insulin, or would a small increase in insulin (such as one that happens after any meal) do the trick?


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

Good question.  I don't think its just about shutting off cortisol though.  Insulin is one of the most anabolic hormones we have, shuttling nutrients (macro and micro) into cells (fat and muscle).  Post workout, due to the glycogen depletion it is more apt to shuttle those nutrients into the muscle.


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## Arnold (Mar 14, 2003)

For optimal protein synthesis to occur it's necessary to consume the highest bv protein (whey) within 30 minutes of training, the ultimate key being quick absorbtion. _Consuming a protein/carbohydrate supplement immediately after training restores insulin levels, increases muscle protein and glycogen content, amplifies the anabolic response of resistance training_(see article below). 

By adding fat to the protein you will only hinder absorbtion, that does not mean the protein is rendered useless, I am just saying you're better off not adding the fat. 




> _*Originally posted by w8lifter *_
> ....and I've gained more muscle this year than I ever have.



Just because you have gained more muscle this year and you follow X theory does not mean it's the best way. 


_Because of its short duration, a lot of exercise scientists and nutritionists think that bodybuilding training does not deplete muscle of its valuable fuel source, muscle glycogen. They are wrong. A single bout of intense weight training is more than enough to significantly deplete muscle glycogen stores.[9] Muscle glycogen is the primary fuel of intense training. Restoring these energy reserves is a key component of recovery and deriving gains from future training sessions. To effectively restore muscle glycogen levels bodybuilders have to get their immediate post-workout nutrition correct.

Bowtell and colleagues have shown that glucose is the better choice of carbohydrate to consume after exercise as it promotes more rapid restoration of muscle glycogen levels than other carbohydrates[10]. When taken immediately after weight training, a dose of glucose (1 gram/kg body weight) was highly effective in preventing muscle breakdown and providing a more positive protein balance in a group of bodybuilders.[8,9]

This strategic dose of glucose also helped to increase the glycogen content of the bodybuilders??? muscles to levels higher than seen before training. The fact that slamming down a glucose-based drink after training could provide all these muscle building benefits was a pretty cool finding.

So far, the researchers at the University of Texas Medical Branch had showed that weight training dramatically stimulates muscle protein synthesis rates (50% above resting levels).[5] The addition of a protein supplement accelerated these rates even further (up to 100% better).[7] Then these scientists demonstrated that supplementing with the essential amino acids and 35 grams of glucose stimulated muscle building rates by up to 400%![13] This is triple resting rates and the highest muscle protein synthesis rates ever recorded.

However, probably even more important was the finding in another study by these scientists that the same supplement combination caused a response just as potent if taken just before a workout.[12]

Since then, the advantages of post-workout protein/carbohydrate supplementation have come flooding through. Consuming a protein/carbohydrate supplement immediately after training restores insulin levels, increases muscle protein and glycogen content, amplifies the anabolic response of resistance training.[3,4, 11-15]

This year Tipton and colleagues confirmed that bracketing your training with dose of essential amino acids before and after resistance training will ensure a direct increase in muscle protein for the rest of the day.[15] If performed every training session, the results are sure to accumulate to form slabs of new, lean muscle.

From all this research, it seems as though bodybuilders have two unique opportunities to receive a potent muscle building effect from supplementation that will lead directly to gains in muscle mass. The first is just before training and the second is soon after._

excerpt from: http://ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=132


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## shwaym (Mar 14, 2003)

nice post Prince.  just makes me feel better about what im doing!


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

I think everyone is over looking what has been eaten previously before the workout.

Most people eat 30-60 minutes before working out - of which, most will still be in the digestion/assimilation stages so you can expect nutrients be going to the muscles during the workout - even more so when bulking when chances are your belly will always have work to do.

I just don't see how one meal is gonna make or break a mass gaining phase, providing at the end of the day, your calories are in surplus.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

If a person hasn't eaten for several hour pre-w/o then i can see more need for a post w/o shake with carbs and protein though.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Post workout, due to the glycogen depletion it is more apt to shuttle those nutrients into the muscle.



Providing you're not already quite glycogen depleted, i'm really unsure (unless you can tell me or find out) just how depleting the average, "sensible" workout actually is.

I train for an hour max (sometimes longer if the gym is busy). I don't do crazy volume, usually 8 sets max. 

I'd love to know how depleting that actually is.


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## Arnold (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I just don't see how one meal is gonna make or break a mass gaining phase, providing at the end of the day, your calories are in surplus.



maybe it will not make or break it, but you may be missing out on a prime opportunity to increase it.

did you not read the clip I just posted, or you just do not believe it?


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

You assume that some of us (many?) work out first thing in the morning.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

Prince, i dislike Delia so i generally ignore AST in general, but all that abstract really told me is that what you can achieve with real food can also be achieved with some sort of supplement.

And lo and behold, i click the link and am faced with pictures of protein powders and glucose powders with links to a shopping cart.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

By the way, it's not that i'm solely against AST, cause i'm not, but a lot of companies like said company word their articles suggesting that the "best" way to go about something is by buying their supplements.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

In fact, i may start my own supplement company, where our supplements are the hardcore real food select.

I think i'll call my company 'Wal-Mart'.


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## Arnold (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Prince, i dislike Delia so i generally ignore AST in general, but all that abstract really told me is that what you can achieve with real food can also be achieved with some sort of supplement.



well, that's great except that particular article was written by Paul Cribb, I guess you can discredit him because he works for AST if you like.

we were not debating food versus supplements here, we were talking about the importance of protein/fat/carbs post work-out.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Providing you're not already quite glycogen depleted, i'm really unsure (unless you can tell me or find out) just how depleting the average, "sensible" workout actually is.
> 
> I train for an hour max (sometimes longer if the gym is busy). I don't do crazy volume, usually 8 sets max.
> ...



Obviously I am do not know the exact answer, and it would depend on so many variables.  But does it really matter.

Isn't the fact that you are depleted to a certain degree, going to signal to your body that replentishment is in order?  Or do you sinply not believe that nutrients are preferencially treated post w/o?

Besides, if you'd like to preferentially store glucose pst w/o, you could always take vinegar beforehand.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> well, that's great except that particular article was written by Paul Cribb, I guess you can discredit him because he works for AST if you like.
> 
> we were not debating food versus supplements here, we were talking about the importance of protein/fat/carbs post work-out.



Actually we were, implicitly.  You were arguing (and I agree) that you need the most readily absorbable protein, thus excluding food, by the very nature of the argument.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> we were not debating food versus supplements here, we were talking about the importance of protein/fat/carbs post work-out.



Yeah, I know.

And i think you're forgetting that i am pro-post w/o protein/carbs.

I'm just playing devil's advocate.


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## Arnold (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I'm just playing devil's advocate.



w8lifter is supposed to defend that position!


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

By the way, in case anyone is unsure, my stance is that post w/o pro/carbs DO help in deciding the muscle to fat gained ratio providing you're in calorie surplus, but if you were to miss out post w/o nutrition and just went home and ate real food, providing your calories are still in surplus, you could still gain mass easily.

Mike Mentzer and the guy who is famous for the stomach vaccuums, whose name escapes me right now, both never bothered with supplemental post workout nutrition.

Regardless of drug use.


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## Arnold (Mar 14, 2003)

Frank Zane?


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

That's the kipper.


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## Arnold (Mar 14, 2003)

well, he now sells supplements! 

http://www.frankzane.com/nutritional_supplements.htm


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## Yanick (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> well, he now sells supplements!
> 
> http://www.frankzane.com/nutritional_supplements.htm



SUPER EGG WHITE PROTEIN .  Now thats a catchy name *cough*corny*cough*


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## shwaym (Mar 14, 2003)

he is still one of my fav bbers of all time


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