# Caster Semenya, forced to take gender test, is a woman...and a man



## min0 lee (Sep 10, 2009)

Tests show that controversial runner Caster Semenya is a woman ...and a man! 
The 18-year-old South African champ has no womb or ovaries and her testosterone levels are more than three times higher than those of a normal female, according to reports. 



The tests, ordered by The International Association of Athletics Federations after Semenya's 800-meter victory in the World Championships, determined she's a hermaphrodite - having both male and female organs. 
Semenya could be stripped of the gold medal she won in Berlin last month and her competitive future is in limbo, according to Australia's Daily Telegraph. 



The athletics governing body is also expected to advise her to have surgery to fix the potentially deadly condition, the paper reported. The IAAF would not comment on the results that have yet to be released. 
According to a source with knowledge of the IAAF tests, Semenya has internal testes - the male sexual organs that produce testosterone. 
Testosterone is a hormone responsible for building muscles and for producing body hair and a deep voice. 



Confirmation of the test results is sure to stoke the controversy that erupted after the university student's sensational track triumph. 
She has been embraced in her home country - where she was declared "our girl" - and appeared on a magazine cover after a feminine makeover. 
"God made me the way I am and I accept myself. I am who I am and I'm proud of myself," she told You Magazine, which ran a photo spread. 
"I don't want to talk about the tests. I'm not even thinking about them." 
oyaniv@nydailynews.com



Read more: Caster Semenya, forced to take gender test, is a woman ... and a man
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## min0 lee (Sep 10, 2009)

Please tell me Serena and Venus are not men....please...


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## Arnold (Sep 10, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> The 18-year-old South African champ has no womb or ovaries *and her testosterone levels are more than three times higher than those of a normal female*, according to reports.



that would give her quite an advantage.


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## bandaidwoman (Sep 10, 2009)

> that would give her quite an advantage.



I wonder if she is  truley a  hermaphodite or has complete androgen insensitivity syndrome . 

 The latter, the genetic men are born without any testosterone receptors.  The testosterone produced by their undescended testicles *can only cross react with the estrogen receptors.* The testosterone levels are humungous since they don't have the normal feedback provided by testosterone receptors.  * In which case, they don't have any advantage over other women since none of the testosterone can act on any testosterone receptors that aren't there*  They develop in every way like women, a famous actress is an example, but have blind invaginated pouches and their testicles remain undescended. They have perfect external female organs though.  By the way, interestng fact, embryos all start with female external organs and over time a man's hormones extends the clitoris and fuses the labia into the penile corporus.  From an embryological standpoint, eve comes first, then adam.


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## Built (Sep 10, 2009)

bandaidwoman, that's interesting, but I don't see how it can apply in this case. Semenya's testosterone levels are only triple that of a normal woman. 


The high-end of normal for total testosterone in a premenopausal adult woman is 4.5 nmol/L (130 ng/dL).
For a man: 30 nmol/L (864 ng/dL).
*Reference ranges:*
BC Lifelabs reference ranges
Unit conversions​If Semenya's level was three times that of a normal woman, it could have gone as high as 13.5 nmol/L (just under 400 ng/dL) - the very low end of normal for a man. 

This seems inconsistent with your suggestion, but I'm delighted that you posted it - I had never heard of this condition!


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## I Are Baboon (Sep 10, 2009)

Iain would hit it.


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## Arnold (Sep 10, 2009)

Built said:


> If Semenya's level was three times that of a normal woman, it could have gone as high as 13.5 nmol/L (just under 400 ng/dL) - the very low end of normal for a man.



I wouldn't even say the _very low end_ for a male, 300 ng/dl is still considered "normal" for a male.


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## min0 lee (Sep 10, 2009)

I Are Baboon said:


> Iain would hit it.


and it would hit it back.


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## Built (Sep 10, 2009)

Prince said:


> I wouldn't even say the _very low end_ for a male, 300 ng/dl is still considered "normal" for a male.



My bad - you're right - it's even lower on the source I cited, which is the lab reference-range used here in British Columbia.

10--30 nmol/L
288--864 ng/dL

My point remains, however - the levels seen in Senenya are not sky high for a man, only for a woman, and she has clearly virilized.


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## bandaidwoman (Sep 11, 2009)

You are absolutely right built but I don't trust the media for giving us correct medical information. They butcher clinical trial stuff all the time.   In some women with cais ( complete androgen insensitivity syndrome) especially in the teenage years  they may have testosterone levels that are upper limits of normal female range or low limits of normal men.  Can't remember why that was .  Usually it is early in the teenage years rather than late like her ( she is 18) .  I would have loved to see the testosterone level rather than a journalist telling us it is three times normal for female or male for that matter.

I am hoping for her sake they find it is cais, in which case she should be able to keep the medal , if not, she will have to relinquish it.


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## tucker01 (Sep 11, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> Please tell me Serena and Venus are not men....please...



Have you jerked off to them?  or maybe paddled the pink canoe?


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## tucker01 (Sep 11, 2009)

I Are Baboon said:


> Iain would hit it.




Tis ok I will let you have seconds again.


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## BigPapaPump68 (Sep 11, 2009)

I saw this on the news, and heard nothing else about it.  Having 3 times the normal test for a woman definitely gave her an advantage.  It'll be interesting to see where they go from here.


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## Built (Sep 11, 2009)

bandaidwoman, thank you for your response. 

The thing that still bothers me is the fact that Semenya virilized. In CAIS, this would not happen, right? Otherwise it is not "complete" androgen insensitivity. 

As an aside, what are the normal levels for total and free testosterone for men and for women in your neck of the woods? Because the number I suggested for Semenya's possible test level is based on triple the high end of normal for a woman. She could be triple the low or the medium end of normal for a woman - does anyone have an actual number for her serum testosterone reading?


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## bandaidwoman (Sep 11, 2009)

Built said:


> bandaidwoman, thank you for your response.
> 
> The thing that still bothers me is the fact that Semenya virilized. In CAIS, this would not happen, right? Otherwise it is not "complete" androgen insensitivity.
> 
> As an aside, what are the normal levels for total and free testosterone for men and for women in your neck of the woods? Because the number I suggested for Semenya's possible test level is based on triple the high end of normal for a woman. She could be triple the low or the medium end of normal for a woman - does anyone have an actual number for her serum testosterone reading?




i missed the fact that she is virilized, in which case, cai is definately out of the picture.  ( so reports are saying she is virilized?).

Testosterone

this link gives a general rule for the hormone values , but they are just general guideline, obviously someone can be hypogonadal with low normal levels and women can virilize with high normal levels. Honestly, i don't check women's testosterone  a whole lot unless i suspect addisons or virilizing ovarian cancer. I have seen women with total testosterone levels of 400 who unfortunately had ovarian carcinoma.


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## bio-chem (Sep 11, 2009)

this girl deserves to keep her medal. what they do to let her compete in the future is troubling, but they owe this girl a lot for doing this all publicly.

whoever let the report out of the bag like this should be shot on site. total breach of privacy and just not right


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## suprfast (Sep 11, 2009)

I follow track and field very heavily.  This almost stole the show over usain bolt demolishing world records.

She deserves to be stripped of her records and medals just like anyone else that tests high or out of the ordinary for banned substances such as CAFFEINE.  

It sucks, but if the sanctioning body wants to be fair they have to do it here also.


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## bio-chem (Sep 11, 2009)

suprfast said:


> I follow track and field very heavily.  This almost stole the show over usain bolt demolishing world records.
> 
> She deserves to be stripped of her records and medals just like anyone else that tests high or out of the ordinary for banned substances such as CAFFEINE.
> 
> It sucks, but if the sanctioning body wants to be fair they have to do it here also.



no they don't. this is her body producing this. this is not her doping. this is not coming from an external source. there is no law that says you can't compete if your natural hormonal levels are outside the norm. completely different. 

If moving forward they choose not to let her compete as a female I can see an argument for that, but stripping her of her gold? under what grounds. Her body naturally makes more testosterone than other girls? is that breaking the rules?


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## Arnold (Sep 11, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> no they don't. this is her body producing this. this is not her doping. this is not coming from an external source. there is no law that says you can't compete if your natural hormonal levels are outside the norm. completely different.
> 
> If moving forward they choose not to let her compete as a female I can see an argument for that, *but stripping her of her gold? under what grounds.* Her body naturally makes more testosterone than other girls? is that breaking the rules?



you answered your own question, the grounds for stripping her of the medals would be she is not "technically" or completely a female.


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## bio-chem (Sep 11, 2009)

Prince said:


> you answered your own question, the grounds for stripping her of the medals would be she is not "technically" or completely a female.



she was when she competed. she is accepted as a female on race day. moving forward now it is cloudy in my mind, but if they strip this girl of her title that she already won it just further shows how unbelievably effed up these governing bodies are in my mind


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## Arnold (Sep 11, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> she was when she competed. she is accepted as a female on race day. moving forward now it is cloudy in my mind, but if they strip this girl of her title that she already won it just further shows how unbelievably effed up these governing bodies are in my mind



you said _"If moving forward they choose not to let her compete as a female I can see an argument for that..."_

so can't the same argument be used? e.g. it was later determined that she was not eligible to compete as a female, therefore she cannot keep the medals.


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## Arnold (Sep 11, 2009)

bandaidwoman said:


> I wonder if she is  truley a  hermaphodite or has complete androgen insensitivity syndrome .
> 
> The latter, the genetic men are born without any testosterone receptors.  The testosterone produced by their undescended testicles *can only cross react with the estrogen receptors.* The testosterone levels are humungous since they don't have the normal feedback provided by testosterone receptors.  * In which case, they don't have any advantage over other women since none of the testosterone can act on any testosterone receptors that aren't there*  They develop in every way like women, a famous actress is an example, but have blind invaginated pouches and their testicles remain undescended. They have perfect external female organs though.  By the way, interestng fact, embryos all start with female external organs and over time a man's hormones extends the clitoris and fuses the labia into the penile corporus.  From an embryological standpoint, eve comes first, then adam.



common sense tells me that an 18 year breaking world records with high testosterone levels is not just a coincidence, not to mention she looks like a man.


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## bio-chem (Sep 11, 2009)

Prince said:


> you said _"If moving forward they choose not to let her compete as a female I can see an argument for that..."_
> 
> so can't the same argument be used? e.g. it was later determined that she was not eligible to compete as a female, therefore she cannot keep the medals.



no I don't think it can. she did not dope, that is accepted. do they have a rule about the competition of a hermaphrodite? If they don't then it seems that you can't go back make a rule retroactive.


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## suprfast (Sep 11, 2009)

They suspend people and revoke medals all the time for FUTURE incidents.  Think about marion jones, she too was stripped of her medals and records.  This comes years after the olympics was held, but in the case of the governing body ex post facto doesnt stand.  

If they choose not to let her run in the future, they also have to strip her of anything she won today.  Just because she entered the race as a female doesnt count for anything.  How long before sex changes will be allowed for competition in the olympics(yes i know this is a severe statement).  She is not 100% female as disclosed.


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## suprfast (Sep 11, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> no I don't think it can. she did not dope, that is accepted. do they have a rule about the competition of a hermaphrodite? If they don't then it seems that you can't go back make a rule retroactive.



They do this all the time with banned substances.  

Another example would be someone with asthma.  They are not allowed to use certain asthma medicine because it is a STEROID and would ban them from competition.  Sometimes your body is a limiting factor(or unlimiting) for competition.  
I think it sucks i really do, but the rules need to be fair to other 100%, not 50%, not 62.5%, women.


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## Arnold (Sep 11, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> no I don't think it can. she did not dope, that is accepted. do they have a rule about the competition of a hermaphrodite? If they don't then it seems that you can't go back make a rule retroactive.



they can strip her medals by using the argument that she entered the contest as a female when in fact she knew she was a hermaphrodite, therefore not truly a female.


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## min0 lee (Sep 11, 2009)

Might as well let men with low testosterone (i.e IAN) race in it also if she's allowed.


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## bio-chem (Sep 11, 2009)

suprfast said:


> They suspend people and revoke medals all the time for FUTURE incidents.  Think about marion jones, she too was stripped of her medals and records.  This comes years after the olympics was held, but in the case of the governing body ex post facto doesnt stand.
> 
> If they choose not to let her run in the future, they also have to strip her of anything she won today.  Just because she entered the race as a female doesnt count for anything.  How long before sex changes will be allowed for competition in the olympics(yes i know this is a severe statement).  She is not 100% female as disclosed.



after the fact it was proven that she doped. so stripping her of her medals makes sense. she cheated, she looses her medals. 

Being born a hermaphrodite and not knowing it doesn't mean she cheated. she was raised as a female in poor ass africa. how the hell did she cheat? she ran to her natural abilities without any foreign external aid.


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## suprfast (Sep 11, 2009)

She had numerous tests in Africa and not one of those brought up the inclination of her being a hermaphrodite?  I find this hard to believe.  The first test done outside of africa showed truths of not being 100% a female.  

Not knowing the rules, not knowing if you might be breaking the rules, and not knowing if your body is within the standards is not an excuse.  

Like i stated, and i will continue to state, it sucks for her.  All the testing she has undergone would have yielded high levels of testosterone and it should have been addressed at that time.  Someone born with elevated blood cell count would too have to follow the same rules.


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## Arnold (Sep 11, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> Being born a hermaphrodite and not knowing it doesn't mean she cheated.



she knew it.


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## bio-chem (Sep 11, 2009)

Prince said:


> she knew it.



ive not seen anything that shows that


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## bandaidwoman (Sep 11, 2009)

suprfast said:


> How long before sex changes will be allowed for competition in the olympics(yes i know this is a severe statement). .



May not be so far off , in my world,  a transgender downhill mountain biker has won several canadian downhill mountain bike championships , Michelle Dumaresq... she used to be a guy.Michelle Dumaresq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

according to the link the olympic committee does allow transexuals to compete if they are two years past "hormonal makeover"....


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## Arnold (Sep 11, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> ive not seen anything that shows that



so do you really think her mother was not told when she was born that she was a hermaphrodite? 

when a baby is born a hermaphrodite the doctors ask the parents if they want to raise the baby as a boy or girl and then they can have the necessary genital surgeries to accommodate this. By the age of 18 don't you think this girl would be wondering why she never had a period and her parents would have let her know that she is a hermaphrodite and can never have children because she has no ovaries?

get real.


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## bandaidwoman (Sep 11, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> no they don't. this is her body producing this. this is not her doping. this is not coming from an external source. there is no law that says you can't compete if your natural hormonal levels are outside the norm. completely different.
> 
> If moving forward they choose not to let her compete as a female I can see an argument for that, but stripping her of her gold? under what grounds. Her body naturally makes more testosterone than other girls? is that breaking the rules?



You bring up a good point, it makes me wonder about women who have congenital adrenal hyperplasia , an enzyme deficiency that cause a woman's adrenal glands to overproduce male hormones, ( they can be 2-3 times that of normal women) but are 100% genetically female.  Many have the disorder diagnosed as children but some called, late classical cah, grow into adulthood without it being diagnosed unless she complains of fertility or menstrual problems.  It is not an uncommon problem either.


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## bandaidwoman (Sep 11, 2009)

Prince said:


> By the age of 18 don't you think this girl would be wondering why she never had a period ....



I'm pretty sure some hermaphrodites have periods and even get pregnant.


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## maniclion (Sep 11, 2009)

she told You Magazine, which ran a photo spread. 
"I don't want to talk about the testes. I'm not even thinking about them." 


Maybe she's a chimera?

This is another case:
Edinanci Fernandes da Silva (born August 23, 1976 in Sousa, Paraíba) is a judoka from Brazil, who won the gold medal in the half heavyweight division (– 78 kg) at the Pan American Games. A resident of São Paulo, she represented the country at three consecutive Summer Olympics, starting in 1996 in Atlanta, Georgia.
Edinanci was born with both male and female sex organs. In the mid-1990s she had surgery, in order to live and compete as a woman.[1]


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## Arnold (Sep 11, 2009)

bandaidwoman said:


> I'm pretty sure some hermaphrodites have periods and even get pregnant.



okay, but this "girl" has no ovaries or uterus, I am not a doctor, but I'm pretty sure its impossible for her menstruate.


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## bio-chem (Sep 11, 2009)

Prince said:


> okay, but this "girl" has no ovaries or uterus, I am not a doctor, but I'm pretty sure its impossible for her menstruate.



and your point is?

The average level of daily physical activity has also been shown to affect timing of puberty, especially female. A high level of exercise, whether for athletic or body image purposes, or for daily subsistence, reduces energy calories available for reproduction and slows puberty. The exercise effect is often amplified by a lower body fat mass and cholesterol.

a woman must reach a certain body fat percentage to begin menstruation is my understanding. it might just be my untrained eye (im sure you would be a better judge prince) but this girl seems to have a very low body fat percentage. seemingly too low for menstruation. don't women who body build loose their periods as well?


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## bio-chem (Sep 11, 2009)

Prince said:


> so do you really think her mother was not told when she was born that she was a hermaphrodite?
> 
> when a baby is born a hermaphrodite the doctors ask the parents if they want to raise the baby as a boy or girl and then they can have the necessary genital surgeries to accommodate this. By the age of 18 don't you think this girl would be wondering why she never had a period and her parents would have let her know that she is a hermaphrodite and can never have children because she has no ovaries?
> 
> get real.



Semenya was born in Ga-Masehlong, a village in South Africa near Polokwane.

yes i really think her mother was not told. have you ever been to a third world country? i doubt they checked this girl when she was born to see if she had ovaries. do they check otherwise healthy newborn girls here in the US for ovaries?

Get real


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## suprfast (Sep 11, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> ive not seen anything that shows that



Nor do i see anything that doesnt.


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## AKIRA (Sep 11, 2009)

Damn you fuckers are pretty technical.  Id love to join in as it is common sense flying around, but Ill just choose a side and say take the medal away.


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## bandaidwoman (Sep 12, 2009)

Prince said:


> okay, but this "girl" has no ovaries or uterus, I am not a doctor, but I'm pretty sure its impossible for her menstruate.



I see your point, didn't read the article too closely.    

However, at the same time many elite female athletes physiologically can approach a state similar to the female athletic triad, where they train so much and have such low percentage body weight they do not menstruate as biochem eluded to.  It may have been a natural assumption since it is more common in female runners.  I guess I am trying to give her the benefit of the doubt since I feel for her.


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## bandaidwoman (Sep 12, 2009)

By the way, technically she is not a hermaphrodite if she does not have ovaries or uterus, she has sexual organs of one sex and exhibits external organs of another sex, she is a pseudohermaphrodite, another case of the media reporting it incorrectly.


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## bio-chem (Sep 12, 2009)

suprfast said:


> Nor do i see anything that doesnt.



so lets give the girl the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. This girl has had to go through a ton of shit the last 2 weeks. She just learned on the national stage that she was really born with male parts, but for a freak set of circumstances was raised female. And now the whole world knows. This isn't like she can just move on with her life


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## bio-chem (Sep 12, 2009)

bandaidwoman said:


> It may have been a natural assumption since it is more common in female runners.  I guess I am trying to give her the benefit of the doubt since I feel for her.


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## Arnold (Sep 12, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> Semenya was born in Ga-Masehlong, a village in South Africa near Polokwane.
> 
> yes i really think her mother was not told. have you ever been to a third world country? i doubt they checked this girl when she was born to see if she had ovaries. do they check otherwise healthy newborn girls here in the US for ovaries?
> 
> Get real



it doesn't matter, she still knew before this, otherwise there would not have been any evidence that proved she had this condition, and obviously there was becuase it got leaked.


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## bio-chem (Sep 12, 2009)

Prince said:


> it doesn't matter, she still knew before this, otherwise there would not have been any evidence that proved she had this condition, and obviously there was becuase it got leaked.



It absolutely matters. are you blind? up until these tests there was no evidence (tests whose results have only been leaked, by the way. no official word). she was raised as a girl because she had girl parts. she grew up as a girl. there were questions because of the musculature of her body and low voice that led to the need for these tests that revealed her hermaphrodical status. hell, even when they were doing the tests she was told it was for allegations of doping, not to determine her gender. 

it may be revealed that she in fact knew. at this point, i don't think she did, and nothing out there shows that she did know. you are jumping to conclusions based upon conjecture and very limited understanding.. I can very easily imagine a scenario where she did not know, and because of this I feel she deserves the benefit of the doubt. especially because at 18 all of this is being revealed on the international stage publicly. not something anyone should have to deal with.


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## Arnold (Sep 12, 2009)

Regardless she cannot be considered a female in athletics because physiologically she is not, and has an unfair advantage against all other female athletes, yes it's sad for her, but that is life. And if they are not going to allow her to compete in future events as a female based on the findings I think they have to strip the medal as well.


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## min0 lee (Sep 12, 2009)

*African track star Caster Semenya drops out of race after gender flap*


Read more: African track star Caster Semenya drops out of race after gender flap
​


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## min0 lee (Sep 12, 2009)

*Third world war if Semenya barred: South Africa*


 South Africa's sports minister says there will be a "third world war" if 800-metre world champion athlete Caster Semenya is barred from competing, after media reports that the gold medallist is a hermaphrodite.
 The South African Government has made it clear that anyone seeking to strip Semenya of her world champion status will be seen as an enemy of the state, and that also goes for the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF).


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## suprfast (Sep 12, 2009)

From what i read the south african prime minister is trying to turn this into a race issue, where it is clearly a gender issue.  Too sad.


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## bio-chem (Sep 13, 2009)

The birth defect people don't talk about - Yahoo! Sports

hopefully wiser and calmer heads will prevail here.


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## min0 lee (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm a hermaphrodite and I am actually getting a kick out of all these replies....oh...wait...


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## bandaidwoman (Sep 13, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> The birth defect people don't talk about - Yahoo! Sports
> 
> hopefully wiser and calmer heads will prevail here.






> And still other times, especially with the *androgen insensitivity syndrome* experts think Semenya might have, it remains hidden until she tries to have a baby ??? or in the case of an athlete, until she???s given a genetic test.



interesting,the experts thinks she has the androgen insensitivity syndome in which case the extra testosterone is worthless, the media may not be reporting things correctly here as usual.


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## bio-chem (Sep 13, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> I'm a hermaphrodite and I am actually getting a kick out of all these replies....oh...wait...



well you do have all the male and female parts


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## Built (Sep 13, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> well you do have all the male and female parts


All bought and paid for, too!


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## danzik17 (Sep 13, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> *Third world war if Semenya barred: South Africa*
> 
> 
> South Africa's sports minister says there will be a "third world war" if 800-metre world champion athlete Caster Semenya is barred from competing, after media reports that the gold medallist is a hermaphrodite.
> The South African Government has made it clear that anyone seeking to strip Semenya of her world champion status will be seen as an enemy of the state, and that also goes for the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF).



Clearly this must be true.  Just look at the financial and military muscle that they wield, and their foreign policies certainly carry a lot of clout and are far reaching in their consequences.


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## tucker01 (Sep 14, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> Might as well let men with low testosterone (i.e IAN) race in it also if she's allowed.




Almost would have been funny.  But you need to learn how to spell.


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