# Steve Olsher: College Is The Single Worst Investment A Parent Can Make



## Big Pimpin (Sep 27, 2011)

For decades, we have often heard that the  journey to career success requires a college degree. While we all want  the best for our children, as parents, it is imperative that we pause to  examine the educational myth that permeates society and choose whether  or not to perpetuate this mentality. Yes,  college has its place for those who know the EXACT career path they  wish to pursue. For everyone else, and with rare exception, it's a  social experiment. 

If  you send your child to college expecting a solid return on your  investment, start playing the Lotto. You have a better chance of  winning. 

To be  clear, secondary education has its benefits. There is a proven  correlation between knowledge and income. That said, we can no longer  ignore the disturbing facts and objectively explore alternative options  towards reaching the same destination. 

Consider the following:*1)  According to a recent Rutgers University study, 53% of students who  graduated between 2006 and 2010 are currently working full-time. *

It  has become increasingly evident that a college degree does not equate  to job security. Further, 50% of those employed full-time work in  positions where a Bachelor???s degree is not required. Scary. 

*2) Within 5 years, 87% of college graduates do NOT work in their field of study. *

Is  it really a mystery that the result of attending college straight from  high school is often that Mom and Dad are broke and junior has a degree  in art history with a minor in pre-unemployment? 

*3) Outdated mindsets continue to drive the educational system. *​When  was the last time you used biology, chemistry, algebra, statistics,  calculus, or philosophy? Unless you're an engineer, scientist or  teacher, odds are good it???s been awhile. 

Students  spend 60 - 70% of their time, energy, and your hard-earned cash on  classes they will never use. General education courses were originally  created to expose students to multiple subjects so they could then  choose which major to pick. This course of action is wasteful on many  levels and must be reversed. 

So, what are the alternatives?*1) Send your child off into the world before sending them off to college*. 

Don't  spend $21,500 this year on tuition (the average annual cost). Give ???em  $5,000 and a swift kick. Your child will learn significantly more about  life, their options, and opportunities being on their own than being at  home or in school. Both are sheltered environments. The world is harsh.  Teach them this lesson early. 

*2) Encourage them to volunteer, join the peace corps, work, enlist in the military, apprentice, intern, and network. *

The  time to begin exploring options is when you have zero responsibilities.  Dare your child to soar and cut the rope. As long as they???re holding on  to you or the current belief system, they???ll never attain their desired  heights or forge their own path. 

*3)  If they gain clarity on their WHAT - that is, the ONE thing they were  born to do - have them research education alternatives and come to you  with a game plan. *​There  are more options for creating an outstanding career than ever before.  From trade schools, to seminars, books on tape, work/study programs,  getting a job, and the internet ??? students no longer need to be in a  classroom to gain the knowledge required to propel their life forward. 

And,  once options are presented, have them pay it (or at least a solid chunk  of the cost). People inherently value what they spend their own money  on. 

Ultimately, as  parents, it is our responsibility to raise adults who make a positive  contribution to our world. College is not a prerequisite. 

Therefore,  we must teach our children how to tap into their inherent blueprint and  heed their natural gifts. Then, and only then, will you realize a  meaningful return on your investment. 

After  all, one in every four college graduates still lives with their  parents. Odds are good, that???s not the return most parents had in mind???


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## SloppyJ (Sep 27, 2011)

"Don't let the liberal media tell you how to live your life"

-Clayton Bigsby


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## Big Smoothy (Sep 27, 2011)

Give your child $5,000 a swift kick and send them out to the world?

Bullshit.

They will be working in the service sector.

I agree that college - because of the astronomical costs in the US - is a bad investment.  Good for the mind and maturing, definitely.

But the cost is so prohibitive.

I consider myself lucky to have graduated from Uni in the early 90s.


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## SloppyJ (Sep 27, 2011)

I believe there are better ways to go about it than just shipping them off to college to live on campus and rack up debt. I've been working full time at an engineering firm since I got out of HS. I've also been taking college classes ever since then also. Granted it's taken me MUCH longer than my friends, I'm about to graduate. But you know what, I have ZERO debt. 

I went to a community college to get all of the BS out of the way and then transfered to a top university to finish my degree. I would not trade my experiences for anything. I've learned so much and grown a lot as a person. Live on my own and pay my own bills. It's a tough world, but I would hate to venture into the job market and work at a factory for the rest of my life because I didn't go to school.


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## ebn2002 (Sep 27, 2011)

Yes, tell your kids not to go to college so somebody can pick up my kids garbage.


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## Big Pimpin (Sep 27, 2011)

SloppyJ said:


> I believe there are better ways to go about it than just shipping them off to college to live on campus and rack up debt. I've been working full time at an engineering firm since I got out of HS. I've also been taking college classes ever since then also. Granted it's taken me MUCH longer than my friends, I'm about to graduate. But you know what, I have ZERO debt.
> 
> I went to a community college to get all of the BS out of the way and then transfered to a top university to finish my degree. I would not trade my experiences for anything. I've learned so much and grown a lot as a person. Live on my own and pay my own bills. It's a tough world, but I would hate to venture into the job market and work at a factory for the rest of my life because I didn't go to school.




I do think most kids need some type of gap between HS and their first year of college to get a clue about how life works and how important either a _good_ degree or a skilled trade is to being financially successful in life.

College isn't for everyone and there's nothing wrong with a guy who is willing to get his hands dirty and sweat learning HVAC, plumbing or welding.

Personally, I worked and paid my own way through college as I went and have no regrets.  Coming out of college debt free is huge IMO.


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## myCATpowerlifts (Sep 27, 2011)

This is actually incredibly good advice.
If you read the article, you'd see why.

I spent a lot of time/money in classes I ultimately will not use, because I was told from early early on that I needed to head straight to college after highschool.

This is a big mistake for most people.

I think everyone should work from age 18 to 21, before they decide to go to college.

Save lots of money, and they'll have a much better idea what they do and do not want to do.


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## SloppyJ (Sep 27, 2011)

Big Pimpin said:


> I do think most kids need some type of gap between HS and their first year of college to get a clue about how life works and how important either a _good_ degree or a skilled trade is to being financially successful in life.
> 
> College isn't for everyone and there's nothing wrong with a guy who is willing to get his hands dirty and sweat learning HVAC, plumbing or welding.
> 
> Personally, I worked and paid my own way through college as I went and have no regrets. Coming out of college debt free is huge IMO.


 
I agree 100%. A specialized technical field IMO has a better job placement than someone with a BS in business or something not so specific.


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## Big Pimpin (Sep 27, 2011)

SloppyJ said:


> I agree 100%. A specialized technical field IMO has a better job placement than someone with a BS in business or something not so specific.




My brother had 2 yrs of college in and at 21 said fuck it.  Went and took A+, Net+ and MCSE classes.  Started off at $30K 10 yrs ago and now will make high 80's this year with bonus and works 5 minutes from his house.  He runs an entire IT dept for 450 employes in 6 branch offices.  

Not every kid is college material and I know a lot of well off electricians, HVAC, plumbers and IT nerds.  A lot has to do with personal ambition too.


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## Wookiemonster (Sep 27, 2011)

myCATpowerlifts said:


> *I think everyone should work from age 18 to 21, before they decide to go to college.*


 

This is where I think 4 years of federal service either in the Military or Peace Corps type work  (strictly in America) should come in.


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## ebn2002 (Sep 27, 2011)

Disagree with all of you.  A degree is general because it gives you OPTIONS.  Go work HVAC, thats all you can ever do.  Specialize in something right out of high school and you are doing it forever.

I have a business degree.  I am a stock broker.  If I decide I don't like this job there are hundreds of other jobs I can go get right away with my degree, and all of them pay more than 99% of people will make with a high school diploma.

Anybody with a degree and no job after one year is fukn lazy or thinks they are more qualified than they are and won't take an entry level job.  Wouldn't matter if they didn't go to college, they would still be lazy.

College is not for everybody, I get that, but to say that kids should get some specialized training and then be stuck doing that same thing forever is not a good idea.  Options and flexibility are more important in my opinion.

and people talking about making $80k a year is good, but I made more than that my first year out of school at 24, not bragging just saying you are way behind without college.   And also one of my professors was the reason I got an internship and now I work for the same company 7 years later.  can't get the community feel and contacts at special school.


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## bandaidwoman (Sep 27, 2011)

we need to bring back the days of apprenticeship, honestly a draftsman does not need a college degree, many technical , highly skilled jobs can be done with apprenticeship.  
However, I honestly don't see how highschool even comes close to producing an analytical chemist or biochemist ( my previous field) without a college education. High level mathmatical fields, ditto.   I have saved up 150 grand for my daughter already to go to college (because i lived in a house i bought for less than 160  grand, lived simply etc.) which will give her some freedom but if she goes to grad school ( like I did) she is on her own.  I don't expect her to major in something that will gaurantee huge salary.  What if she wants to be a theoretical physicist?  ( and we need them since thier work indirectly feeds into applications in IT.)   I worked between college and grad school and that was very eye opening. Not everyone should go straight to college out of highschool.  That I agree with.


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## Big Pimpin (Sep 27, 2011)

Some way, some how a 4 year bachelors degree needs to become a 2 year degree in most cases.  Unless you are pre-med/pharm/law etc there's no reason to waste 4 years of time and money on 4 Englishes, 3 sciences, a bunch of electives and lame capstones.  

The typical kid seeking a business degree should be in and out in 2 years with some extra effort on his part and a reduced overall program requirement on behalf the school.


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## bandaidwoman (Sep 27, 2011)

It all comes down to the value of an education and how one uses it.

 My brother's physics degree from Princeton ,though useful, is subservient to his spanish double major at this point in his career... he is a big time international project manager  and flies all over latin america managing the software engineers and troubleshooting projects there .  I honestly made fun of him majoring in spanish 25 yrs ago but Princeton was very adamant about even the science majors getting a well rounded degree .  I bitched about my college requiring me to take english, history , and language classes when I was just a chemistry, math major but I find that my writing skills honed in these classes help me write well so I can grovel for grants from organizations and entities that do not have scientists making the funding decisions.....


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## LAM (Sep 27, 2011)

ebn2002 said:


> Anybody with a degree and no job after one year is fukn lazy or thinks they are more qualified than they are and won't take an entry level job.  Wouldn't matter if they didn't go to college, they would still be lazy.



the ever increasing student loan default rate shows there is a lack of jobs across all job markets.  the lazy excuse hold no water as there are tons of studies to show the US is down about 14M jobs since about 2000.  with a workforce of about 168M this equates to about a 8% reduction in jobs which is substantial.

Americans have short memories and do not pay enough attention to details.  the economic expansion from 2001-2007 before the banking collapse was only increasing jobs at the annual rate of 0.01%.  the housing market boom in the 2000's only temporarily masked this problem.  basically we are back to the anemic levels of job creation that we were seeing pre-Internet which was the last time there was actual real income growth in the US and economic expansion that was not fueled by the opening up of credit markets as was seen in the 80's and 2000's...

this consumption based economy based on a service sector is bogus...there are far too many people in the US to be supported by the service sector.  9% unemployed and 20% of the workforce is underemployed.  this tells us everything we need to know.


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## ebn2002 (Sep 27, 2011)

LAM said:


> the ever increasing student loan default rate shows there is a lack of jobs across all job markets.  the lazy excuse hold no water as there are tons of studies to show the US is down about 14M jobs since about 2000. .



All I'm saying is my friends that WANT to work are all working.  My friends that are like you and say the economy is bad, there are no jobs, etc.. those are the ones that have no job because the economy is bad so they just cry about it  instead of getting a job.


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## Big Pimpin (Sep 27, 2011)

LAM said:


> the ever increasing student loan default rate shows there is a lack of jobs across all job markets.  the lazy excuse hold no water as there are tons of studies to show the US is down about 14M jobs since about 2000.  with a workforce of about 168M this equates to about a 8% reduction in jobs which is substantial.




Now that I think about it, I don't know one person that I ran around with in HS or college with a college education that isn't employed right now.   We all grew up around ATL (which does have vast opportunities) and entered the workforce in the mid to late 90's so this lack of unemployment could be a result of having plenty of tenure in one's career too.


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## ALBOB (Sep 27, 2011)

ebn2002 said:


> A degree is general because it gives you OPTIONS.



Yep, you could work at ANY fast food restaurant you choose.


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## LAM (Sep 27, 2011)

ebn2002 said:


> All I'm saying is my friends that WANT to work are all working.  My friends that are like you and say the economy is bad, there are no jobs, etc.. those are the ones that have no job because the economy is bad so they just cry about it  instead of getting a job.



and how old are your friends?  it's substantially easier for people in the 20s & 30's to get a job than those in the 40's and 50's that require substantially higher wages.

jobs have to be available in the same markets where the unemployed are.  most company's are not offering relocation allowances, not so easy just to move where the jobs are as that can cost several thousands of dollars easy. 

also have  to take into account the vast number of homeowners that are upside-down in the mortgage.  selling a house is much easier said than done today.


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## KelJu (Sep 27, 2011)

My parents couldn't really help me out due to their own financial problems. For the first few years I basically went to school for two semesters, then worked construction for a semester. That was my only way to stay afloat and still have time to devote to the engineering program at South. Then I changed majors to CS, and the coarse load was easier, so I I worked 40 hours per week and took 12 hours of classes per week. I did that off and on for about 5 years until I graduated. 

I do not recommend this method if you have other options. Doing it that way basically turned me into a bitter angry fuck, or at least more of a bitter angry fuck than I already was.

Also, I learned some pretty useful trades while I put myself through school which sort of backfired on me. I was making a very good living before I even graduated. As my income increased, so did my standard of living. This made it almost impossible to start entry at level into the field which I got my degree in. I basically had to work two jobs for a year and a half until I worked my way into an income bracket that would allow me to stay on top of my bills.

Long story short, just don't do it the way I did. I would give give my left nut to do it all over again knowing what I know now.


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## ebn2002 (Sep 27, 2011)

LAM said:


> it's substantially easier for people in the 20s & 30's to get a job than those in the 40's and 50's that require substantially higher wages.



They are 20's and 30's correct.  

Maybe people in their 40's and 50's are accustomed to getting paid inflated wages?


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## LAM (Sep 27, 2011)

ebn2002 said:


> They are 20's and 30's correct.
> 
> Maybe people in their 40's and 50's are accustomed to getting paid inflated wages?



what good is experience if your wages do not increase with it?  I highly doubt you expect to be getting paid the same wages at 50 as you do now...


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## sofargone561 (Sep 27, 2011)

i like cock! but in all seirousnt i dont care much about this im gettin my degree becuase i kinda like to learn and want to make some good money and hopefully my degrees will get me their. i also plan on joining the military so officers may should be decent especially if i can jump through the ranks =)


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## Gissurjon (Sep 27, 2011)

Big Pimpin said:


> Now that I think about it, I don't know one person that I ran around with in HS or college with a college education that isn't employed right now.   We all grew up around ATL (which does have vast opportunities) and entered the workforce* in the mid to late 90's* so this lack of unemployment could be a result of having plenty of tenure in one's career too.



Aah the good'ol Clinton years.


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## KelJu (Sep 27, 2011)

I was making more money in 2000 with no post high school education than I was a year ago. Sure, I was working 70 hours a week to do it, but the opportunity was there. Now, fuck, almost every friend I had that was doing construction is out of work. These were people that worked their asses off in 100 degree heat in manufacturing plants and industrial construction sites for years. 

The manufacturing sector is now in the shitter, and people who made 70,000 a year aren't going to go work in the service sector for $25,000 a year and I can't blame them.


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## LAM (Sep 27, 2011)

KelJu said:


> The manufacturing sector is now in the shitter, and people who made 70,000 a year aren't going to go work in the service sector for $25,000 a year and I can't blame them.



a lost white collar job that places a person in the service sector isn't a stepping stone to anything.  it's a dead end job with basically no way to recover economically.  it's mind boggling to me that people can't understand things that are common sense that don't even really have anything to do with having knowledge about economics. 

it's basic common sense and basic mathematics.


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## lnvanry (Sep 28, 2011)

LAM said:


> what good is experience if your wages do not increase with it?  I highly doubt you expect to be getting paid the same wages at 50 as you do now...




Experience should drive merit...and merit is what should dictate wages.

breadth/depth of experience should equate to a higher salary.  Achievement equates to a higher salary, but hey, I'm a young gun 

It sounds like the author got burned by academia either as a student or a parent.  I understand where he is coming from, but your odds aren't as bad as playing the lottery....not even close.  If thats not a hyperbole than I don't know what is


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## Big Pimpin (Sep 28, 2011)

Gissurjon said:


> Aah the good'ol Clinton years.



The WTC bombing, the cluster fuck in Mogadishu, the cluster fuck in Waco, the embassy bombing, the Cole and the tech bubble and market crash.  Good times I tell ya.


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## Dale Mabry (Sep 28, 2011)

I agree with the OP big time.  In fact, the chance you are going to make any significant amount of money working for somebody else in the next couple of decades is slim to none.  Perfect a trade, work a decade on it for yourself, and you will make money.


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## bandaidwoman (Sep 28, 2011)

unfortunately with this kind of rhetoric many future scientists/ engineers won't go to college ( the underpinning of future innovation etc.). My sister went to college to be a history major,she  took a lot of courses and realized she actually liked linguistics which segwayed into programming which led to software engineer.  If she never went to college to broaden her horizons and find her skill she would be nowhere.


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## LAM (Sep 28, 2011)

Big Pimpin said:


> The WTC bombing, the cluster fuck in Mogadishu, the cluster fuck in Waco, the embassy bombing, the Cole and the tech bubble and market crash.  Good times I tell ya.



funny I don't remember US citizens blaming the POTUS when the hostage crisis was going on in Iran in the late 70's to early 80's..last time I checked the POTUS is not responsible for protecting every american and especially those outside of the US.

WTF did Clinton have to do with the tech bubble and market crash?  how exactly is the POTUS responsible for over-speculation by investors?  the tech bubble was not the result of lobbying as was seen in the banking collapse in 2007, as the reports from the IMF proved was the result of extensive lobbying by sub-prime lenders during the years of 2000-2007.


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## Wookiemonster (Sep 28, 2011)

bandaidwoman said:


> unfortunately with this kind of rhetoric many future scientists/ engineers won't go to college ( the underpinning of future innovation etc.). My sister went to college to be a history major,she  took a lot of courses and realized she actually liked linguistics which segwayed into programming which led to software engineer.  If she never went to college to broaden her horizons and find her skill she would be nowhere.




Those kids won't go to college because high tech fields are being outsourced to India and China where kids are placed on a specific track much earlier in their educational careers.  America is quickly losing  (some have said it's already gone to far) her ability to compete with China and India in training, recruiting and retaining high tech professions. 

But hell...what do I know..."I pick things up and put them down".


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## ANIMALHAUS (Sep 28, 2011)

KelJu said:


> My parents couldn't really help me out due to their own financial problems. For the first few years I basically went to school for two semesters, then worked construction for a semester. That was my only way to stay afloat and still have time to devote to the engineering program at South. Then I changed majors to CS, and the coarse load was easier, so I I worked 40 hours per week and took 12 hours of classes per week. I did that off and on for about 5 years until I graduated.
> 
> I do not recommend this method if you have other options. *Doing it that way basically turned me into a bitter angry fuck, or at least more of a bitter angry fuck than I already was.*
> 
> ...


 
I've often wondered why you are always so angry!!! 

The important thing is that you got it done.


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## ANIMALHAUS (Sep 28, 2011)

sofargone561 said:


> i like cock! but in all seirousnt i dont care much about this im gettin my degree becuase i kinda like to learn and want to make some good money and hopefully my degrees will get me their. i also plan on joining the military so officers may should be decent especially if i can jump through the ranks =)


 
Writing basics 101: Spelling, Grammar & Punctuation would be a good start.


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## sofargone561 (Sep 28, 2011)

ANIMALHOUSE said:


> Writing basics 101: Spelling, Grammar & Punctuation would be a good start.


 omg not anotha 1 of you guys who the fuck cares! 
when im doin 1 of my reports or somethin that matters maybe ill try lil harda but im not here 4 a grade and i love how it geta yalls panties in a bunch


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## ANIMALHAUS (Sep 28, 2011)

sofargone561 said:


> omg not anotha 1 of you guys who the fuck cares!
> when im doin 1 of my reports or somethin that matters maybe ill try lil harda but im not here 4 a grade and i love how it geta yalls panties in a bunch


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## bandaidwoman (Sep 28, 2011)

Wookiemonster said:


> Those kids won't go to college because high tech fields are being outsourced to India and China where kids are placed on a specific track much earlier in their educational careers.  America is quickly losing  (some have said it's already gone to far) her ability to compete with China and India in training, recruiting and retaining high tech professions.
> 
> But hell...what do I know..."I pick things up and put them down".



That may be true for I.T. but in basic sciences developing new products or drugs, As an ex- chemist, I can tell you  I was highly valued because I was an American. I beat out M.I.T, Stanford, Harvard grads because the companies knew the value of an American researcher who was unlikely to engage  coorporate espionage.  I still get calls and letters begging me to return to American companies in need of good analytical chemists.  I ask them why they don't just hire the Indian or Chinese with the credentials graduating from Georgia Tech, MIT etc. and they tell me #1, it costs more since they have to fund their H1B , J1 visas etc. and they are worried about coorporate espionage.......My brother in law makes a killing as a mathmatician for Bank of America and I ask him why they haven't outsourced his job to India where they are turning out mathmaticians by the drove, he can't tell me what he does but I get the feeling it's something similar,  he just tells me they can't outsource his job.

We need to pay science and math teachers more than liberal arts teachers in the middle and high schools because there is such a shortage. _That will get more people with talents or degrees in those fields teaching our kids _. It's basic free market supply and demand.  And, we need to reward scientists by either funding their college tuition, ( so a physicist isn't owing as much as a premed), and  don't cut funding to the NIH and  other government agencies  that sponser basic research, _we are cutting our jugular_. *Private coorporations have no idea the potential of basic research until much later ( look at quantum mechanics, esoteric in its infancy but it's application now dominates a major portion of our technology*).


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## LAM (Sep 28, 2011)

bandaidwoman said:


> That may be true for I.T. but in basic sciences developing new products or drugs, As an ex- chemist, I can tell you  I was highly valued because I was an American. I beat out M.I.T, Stanford, Harvard grads because the companies knew the value of an American researcher who was unlikely to engage  coorporate espionage.  I still get calls and letters begging me to return to American companies in need of good analytical chemists.  I ask them why they don't just hire the Indian or Chinese with the credentials graduating from Georgia Tech, MIT etc. and they tell me #1, it costs more since they have to fund their H1B , J1 visas etc. and they are worried about coorporate espionage.......My brother in law makes a killing as a mathmatician for Bank of America and I ask him why they haven't outsourced his job to India where they are turning out mathmaticians by the drove, he can't tell me what he does but I get the feeling it's something similar,  he just tells me they can't outsource his job.



these are all the same reasons why the US lets many come to the US to work but is very selective in regards to "foreigners" that get secret security clearance and above.  I mean it's not like the US has wronged any country's in the past or anything..lol


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## bandaidwoman (Sep 29, 2011)

what's interesting is my dual citizenship ( china and u.s) made some people nervous since my home country use their scientists in espionage, ( I could be the perfect double agent)  but my dad's connections with C.I.A.meant I was clean ( or at least they could check me out pretty thoroughly).


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## Gissurjon (Sep 29, 2011)

Big Pimpin said:


> The WTC bombing, the cluster fuck in Mogadishu, the cluster fuck in Waco, the embassy bombing, the Cole and the tech bubble and market crash.  Good times I tell ya.



Hey, we had a job


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## Big Smoothy (May 14, 2012)

Article out today.  Just like the Stock market tech bubble and housing bubble - there is now a student loan (borrowing) bubble.  Less money in total, but it will be damaging and has ripple effects.



> With more than $1 trillion in student loans outstanding in this country, crippling debt is no longer confined to dropouts from for-profit colleges or graduate students who owe on many years of education, some of the overextended debtors in years past. Now nearly everyone pursuing a bachelor???s degree is borrowing. As prices soar, a college degree statistically remains a good lifetime investment, but it often comes with an unprecedented financial burden.
> 
> Ninety-four percent of students who earn a bachelor???s degree borrow to pay for higher education ??? up from 45 percent in 1993, according to an analysis by The New York Times of the latest data from the Department of Education. This includes loans from the federal government, private lenders and relatives.



And....


> Mr. Date likened excessive student borrowing to risky mortgages. And as with the housing bubble before the economic collapse, the extraordinary growth in student loans has caught many by surprise. But its roots are in fact deep, and the cast of contributing characters ??? including college marketing officers, state lawmakers wielding a budget ax and wide-eyed students and families ??? has been enabled by a basic economic dynamic: an insatiable demand for a college education, at almost any price, and plenty of easy-to-secure loans, primarily from the federal government.





> *???If one is not thinking about where this is headed over the next two or three years, you are just completely missing the warning signs,??? said Rajeev V. Date, deputy director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, the federal watchdog created after the financial crisis.*




Entire article is worth a browse: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/b...ration-with-heavy-debt.html?_r=3&ref=business


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## LAM (May 15, 2012)

ebn2002 said:


> Yes, tell your kids not to go to college so somebody can pick up my kids garbage.



the piece of shit politicians and lobbyists can't write legislation or "free trade agreements" to outsource those kinds of jobs, they will always be there.


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## LAM (May 15, 2012)

Big Smoothy said:


> Article out today.  Just like the Stock market tech bubble and housing bubble - there is now a student loan (borrowing) bubble.  Less money in total, but it will be damaging and has ripple effects.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the same applies to health spending.  if the US had cost controls like in most OECD country's those monies could be better used for consumption etc.  this bullshit low wage economy fueled by debt based consumption for the working class that they have designed isn't going to last much longer, it's unsustainable.


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## Gregzs (Jul 18, 2012)

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/e...?_r=2&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120718

[h=1]Top Universities Test the Online Appeal of Free[/h][h=6]By RICHARD P?REZ-PE?A[/h]A few months ago, free online courses from prestigious universities were a rarity. Now, they are the cause for announcements every few weeks, as a field suddenly studded with big-name colleges and competing software platforms evolves with astonishing speed.        

In a major development on Tuesday, a dozen highly ranked universities said they had signed on with Coursera, a new venture offering free classes online. They still must overcome some skepticism about the quality of online education and the prospects for having the courses cover the costs of producing them, but their enthusiasm is undimmed.        

But at universities that have not yet seized a piece of this action, the response ranges from curiosity to fear of losing a crucial competition. When University of Virginia trustees ousted their president last month ? a decision they later reversed ? one reason cited was concern about being left behind online. (Virginia was included in Tuesday?s announcement.)        

?There?s panic,? said Kevin Carey, director of education policy at the New America Foundation, a nonpartisan research group. ?Whether it?s senseless panic is unclear.?        

Massive open online courses, or MOOCs, let colleges reach vast audiences at relatively low cost, but they have not yet made money from them. And if it becomes possible in years to come to get a complete college education from an elite institution online, free or at relatively low cost, experts wonder whether some colleges will find it harder to attract students willing to pay $20,000, $40,000 or even $60,000 a year for the traditional on-campus experience.        

Online classes have been around for years, with technology evolving to include multimedia features and interaction among students and faculty. What is new is the way top colleges are jumping in with free courses ? in effect, throwing open the doors digitally.        

So far, most people signing up live in foreign countries. But MOOCs will become more appealing to domestic students when they give course credits toward a degree, something the elite universities have not yet done. The University of Washington says it plans to do so, and it may be just a matter of time before earning credits becomes standard.        

?The people who should be worried about this are the large tier of American universities ? especially the expensive private schools ? that are not elite and don?t have the same reputation? as the big-name universities now creating MOOCs, said Anya Kamenetz, an author who writes on the future of higher education.        

Residential colleges already attract far less than half of the higher education market. Most enrollment and nearly all growth in higher education is in less costly options that let students balance classes with work and family: commuter colleges, night schools, online universities.        

Most experts say there will always be students who want to live on campus, interacting with professors and fellow students, particularly at prestigious universities. But as a share of the college market, that is likely to be a shrinking niche.        

The elite universities will be best able to compete with low-cost alternatives because their large endowments make them less dependent on tuition income, and they can lower their effective prices through generous financial aid, said John Nelson, a managing director at Moody?s Investors Service who analyzes higher education finances.        

Analysts say that universities will inevitably try to make money from MOOCs, whether by charging tuition or not. Software companies working with colleges have looked into advertising, or selling information on students to prospective employers.        
William E. Kirwan, chancellor of the University System of Maryland, noted that a few public colleges, including his system?s University College, already offer mostly online courses. In the future, he said, the standard class will be a hybrid of in-person and online elements, which Maryland is experimenting with.        

?We think this approach can cut costs by about 25 percent,? he said, ?enabling each professor to work with more students, while producing a clear improvement in learning outcomes.?        

For a decade, Carnegie Mellon University?s Open Learning Initiative has created free online courses. But for many educators, Stanford fired the starting gun last fall, with a free online course in artificial intelligence that drew 160,000 students.        

The Massachusetts Institute of Technology started a free class project, MITx, in December. The next month, a Stanford professor who helped teach the artificial intelligence class founded Udacity, a company offering free courses in partnership with colleges and professors.        

In April, Stanford, Princeton, the University of Pennsylvania and the University of Michigan joined forces with Coursera to offer free classes. In May, Harvard teamed with M.I.T. to create a similar venture, edX.        
In the last week, more universities signed on with Coursera.        

?Our participation was finalized literally over the weekend,? said J. Milton Adams, vice provost at the University of Virginia, which listed five free courses. ?I?m going to have some unhappy faculty members saying, ?Why can?t my course be on there?? ?


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## LAM (Jul 18, 2012)

college is still worth it for those that don't have to go crazy in debt to pay for it as long as you get a degree in a field where they can't outsource your job or is heavily depending on some type of government funding (say like a civil engineer, etc.)   

getting some kind of scholarship is the way to go


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## maniclion (Jul 18, 2012)

I graduated top of my class, so it was well worth the investment I made.  Most was paid by GI Bill...  When you have with Honors on your resume it opens a few more doors...


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## LAM (Jul 18, 2012)

maniclion said:


> I graduated top of my class, so it was well worth the investment I made.  Most was paid by GI Bill...  When you have with Honors on your resume it opens a few more doors...



sure does...always has carried weight and always will


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## NVRBDR (Jul 18, 2012)

GI bill is awesome, financing school is foolish.  Entrepreneurship is the way to go, it's what I teach my kids and if all goes according to plan, it's what they'll teach theirs  it's America, land of opportunity!


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## Zaphod (Jul 18, 2012)

Big Pimpin said:


> My brother had 2 yrs of college in and at 21 said fuck it.  Went and took A+, Net+ and MCSE classes.  Started off at $30K 10 yrs ago and now will make high 80's this year with bonus and works 5 minutes from his house.  He runs an entire IT dept for 450 employes in 6 branch offices.
> 
> Not every kid is college material and I know a lot of well off electricians, HVAC, plumbers and IT nerds.  A lot has to do with personal ambition too.



Friend of mine from back in high school did exactly that.  He gets multi-million dollar budgets to build IT systems for other companies.  He's an IT department by himself.


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## Zaphod (Jul 18, 2012)

I've talked to my kids about their futures.  I believe the way to go is back to the basics.  Machining, welding, carpentry, plumbing, HVAC, IT, etc.  Those are fields that literally can not be outsourced.


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## LAM (Jul 18, 2012)

yep...because anything that can, eventually will be.


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## Jeeper (Jul 22, 2012)

I am a divoce lawyer and the success of the top 10% of my clients, based on net worth,  has nothing to do with a college education.  They were risk takers who started businesses.  I have had HVAC guys making $2 million a year, and plumbers doing the same.  They are not doctors and lawyers from Harvard, they were smal business owners who created something.  And from what I see it is actually not a trait that is taught in any school.  The funny side is that a much higher percentage of my clients who were born abroad start businesses.


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## heckler7 (Jul 22, 2012)

most jobs require a college degree, and you cant expect to get a decent promotion without it now.


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## NVRBDR (Jul 22, 2012)

Jeeper said:


> I am a divoce lawyer and the success of the top 10% of my clients, based on net worth,  has nothing to do with a college education.  They were risk takers who started businesses.  I have had HVAC guys making $2 million a year, and plumbers doing the same.  They are not doctors and lawyers from Harvard, they were smal business owners who created something.  And from what I see it is actually not a trait that is taught in any school.  The funny side is that a much higher percentage of my clients who were born abroad start businesses.




that is interesting info right here^^^ people who are born abroad come to America for the opportunities we offer. most Americans believe education is the _"only way to have financial security"_, I base my opinion on my array of friends, and on employees (some of which make upwards $500 a day) who have become acquaintances and are from other countries that offer much less in the _"way of opportunity" 

I find it very interesting that the latest generations are so bent on "education being the ticket to success" when there is very little freedom in working for someone else compared to working for yourself. I have done both, and am happier on my own.


_


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## heckler7 (Jul 22, 2012)

Jeeper said:


> I am a divoce lawyer and the success of the top 10% of my clients, based on net worth, has nothing to do with a college education. They were risk takers who started businesses. I have had HVAC guys making $2 million a year, and plumbers doing the same. They are not doctors and lawyers from Harvard, they were smal business owners who created something. And from what I see it is actually not a trait that is taught in any school. The funny side is that a much higher percentage of my clients who were born abroad start businesses.


interesting I wonder if prince has a degree?


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## LAM (Jul 22, 2012)

Jimmyusa said:


> that is interesting info right here^^^ people who are born abroad come to America for the opportunities we offer. most Americans believe education is the _"only way to have financial security"_, I base my opinion on my array of friends, and on employees (some of which make upwards $500 a day) who have become acquaintances and are from other countries that offer much less in the _"way of opportunity"
> 
> I find it very interesting that the latest generations are so bent on "education being the ticket to success" when there is very little freedom in working for someone else compared to working for yourself. I have done both, and am happier on my own._



immigrants have always been the foundation of growth in the US as they see the things (opportunities) that we who are born in the US miss and/or take for granted.  but not everyone is meant or designed to be a business owner as it takes a lot of self discipline, a trait many American's do not have.


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## NVRBDR (Jul 22, 2012)

LAM said:


> immigrants have always been the foundation of growth in the US as they see the things (opportunities) that we who are born in the US miss and/or take for granted.  but not everyone is meant or designed to be a business owner as it takes a lot of self discipline, a trait many American's do not have.




yup, I take my kids to work with me when we have vacancies that need a little refurb. I put them to work, sanding or doing something they won't forget, they see first hand what it's like to work for their money. They are also around on the first when I go and collect rent from multiple tenants. It's a great thing to see the _"light bulb turn on n your kids mind"_


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## Jeeper (Jul 22, 2012)

LAM said:


> immigrants have always been the foundation of growth in the US as they see the things (opportunities) that we who are born in the US miss and/or take for granted.  ......



This is also why so many second generation business fail, because the guy who busted his butt to build something had a kid who took success for granted, as it was handed to them.


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## LAM (Jul 22, 2012)

Jeeper said:


> This is also why so many second generation business fail, because the guy who busted his butt to build something had a kid who took success for granted, as it was handed to them.



one of my best friends growing up his grandparents owned a oil company.  and the parents were so fucked up and spoiled the grandparents sold the company and set them up with a trust for $2K/week for life and this was back in the 80's.  the mother drank herself to an early grave by her late 50's and the father is still kicking in his early 70's now.


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## Gregzs (Aug 10, 2012)

Recession Generation Opts to Rent Not Buy Houses to Cars - Bloomberg

[h=1]Recession Generation Opts to Rent Not Buy Houses to Cars[/h]            By Caroline Fairchild -             Aug 8, 2012
The day Michael Anselmo signed a lease on his first apartment in New York City, he lost his job at Buck Consultants LLC. He spent about 10 months struggling to pay rent with unemployment benefits. Two years later he?s still hesitant to buy a home or even a road bike. 
?Every decision that I have made since I lost my job has been colored by that insecurity I feel about the future,? said Anselmo, 28, who now rents an apartment in Austin, Texas, and works as a consultant for UnitedHealth Group Inc. ?Buying a house is just further out on the timeline for me than it used to be.? 
Anselmo and many of his peers are wary about making large purchases after entering adulthood in the deepest recession and weakest recovery since World War II. Confronting a jobless rateabove 8 percent since 2009 and student-loan debt hitting about $1 trillion, 20-to-34-year-olds are renting apartments, cars and even clothing to save money and stay flexible. 
As the Great Depression shaped the attitudes of a generation from 1929 until the early years of World War II, so have the financial crisis and its aftermath affected the outlook of young consumers like Anselmo, said Cliff Zukin, a professor of public policy and political science at the Edward J. Bloustein School of Planning and Public Policy at Rutgers, the state university of New Jersey. 
[h=2]Recession Effects[/h]?This is a generation that is scared of commitment, wants to be light on their feet and needs to adjust to whatever happens,? said Zukin, who?s researched the effects of the recession on recent college graduates. ?What once was seen as a solid investment, like a house or a car, is now seen as a ball and chain with a lot of risk to it.? 
One key difference is that technology now allows companies to provide younger consumers access to what they want, when they want it and at a reduced cost, said Paco Underhill, founder of New York-based consumer-behavior research and consulting firmEnvirosell. 
?Renting is something that is in play that wasn?t in play during the Great Depression,? he said. ?To a modern generation, ownership isn?t about having it forever, it is about having it when you need to have it,? said Underhill, who has studied shopper behavior. 
[h=2]Hourly Rental[/h]Enterprise Holdings Inc. and Hertz Global Holdings Inc. (HTZ) are expanding in what the Santa Monica, California-based research firm IBISWorld estimates to be the $1.8 billion hourly car-rental business, a segment dominated by younger drivers and made popular by Zipcar Inc. (ZIP) Startups such as Rent the Runway Inc. are supplying high-fashion apparel to satisfy those who want to wear, not own. CORT, a unit of Warren Buffett?s Berkshire Hathaway Inc. (BRK/A), is increasing its furniture-rental marketing efforts to college students and fledgling households, said Mark Koepsell, CORT?s senior vice president. 
?Renting makes a lot of sense,? said David Blanchflower, professor of economics at Dartmouth College in New Hampshire and a Bloomberg Television contributing editor. ?They have no money and they are not buying fridges and they are not buying the things they normally buy when they set up homes. Their incomes are a lot lower.? 
[h=2]College Graduates[/h]College graduates earned less coming out of the recession, according to a May study by the John J. Heldrich Center for Workforce Development at Rutgers. Those graduating during 2009 to 2011 earned a median salary in their starting job $3,000 less than the $30,000 seen in 2007. The majority of students owed $20,000 to pay off their education, and 40 percent of the 444 college graduates surveyed said their loan debt is causing them to delay major purchases such as a house or a car. The U.S. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau said in March it appearedstudent loans had reached $1 trillion ?several months?earlier. 
The U.S. economy shrank 4.7 percent from December 2007 to June 2009, making it the deepest and longest slump in the post-war era. In the three years since the recession ended, the economy has expanded 6.7 percent, the weakest recovery since World War II. 
Even as the housing market shows some signs of revival, the slow pace of recovery is keeping the younger generation fearful of investments rather than confident about building wealth for the future, said Jeffrey Lubell, executive director for theCenter for Housing Policy, based in Washington. First-time home buyers in 2011 accounted for the smallest percentage of the total since 2006, according to the National Association of Realtors. The vacancy rate of U.S. rental properties is at its lowest level since 2002. 
[h=2]Shifting Attitudes[/h]The shifting attitudes also pose a threat to retail sales, said Candace Corlett, president of New York-based retail-strategy firm WSL Strategic Retail. Younger consumers are already comfortable buying used items and borrowing from friends. Renting will only reinforce their tendency not to buy new. 
?In a post-recession economy where retailers are trying to make every shopper count, it?s the wrong direction,? she said. Retail sales fell in June for a third consecutive month, the longest period of declines since 2008. 
The by-the-hour segment accounts for about 6 percent of the $30.5 billion U.S. car-rental market, a share that is forecast to rise to about 10 percent in five years, according to IBISWorld. 
[h=2]Enterprise?s Customers[/h]St. Louis-based Enterprise, the largest U.S. car-rental company, expanded in the segment in May by acquiring Mint Cars On-Demand, an hourly car-rental firm with locations in New Yorkand Boston. Half of Enterprise?s customers in this segment are under 35, according to company spokeswoman Laura Bryant. 
Hertz, which began renting cars by the hour in 2008, plans to equip its entire 375,000-vehicle U.S. fleet with the technology for hourly rental within about a year, said Richard Broome, senior vice president of corporate affairs and communications for the Park Ridge, New Jersey-based company. 
?It made sense to reach the younger demographic to get involved in car sharing,? Broome said. Those 34 and younger make up 84 percent of Hertz?s by-the-hour customer base, he said. ?The higher costs of insurance, the higher costs of fuel, the economics would lead someone to conclude that it?s a better decision to rent the car or do car sharing than it is to own a car.? 
Zipcar, the Cambridge, Massachusetts-based company that joined the market segment in 2000, says it now has about 731,000 members and more than 11,000 vehicles worldwide. More than half of Zipcar?s customers are under 35, said Mark Norman, the company?s president and chief operating officer. 
[h=2]Formal Wear[/h]?Whether it?s movies by the month, music by the song or formal wear by the occasion, all of those are a smarter way to think about consumption, and Zipcar fits into that really well,? he said. Zipcar?s shares have dropped 43 percent this year under the threat of the new competition. 
While sales of new cars are rebounding, 18-to-34-year-olds accounted for 11.8 percent of vehicle registrations for new cars in the five months through May, compared with 16.5 percent in May 2007, according to data from R.L. Polk & Co., an auto-industry research company based in Southfield, Michigan. 
Jared Fruchtman, 25, said using Zipcar gives him about $600 more a month to spend on dinners out, cab rides and trips on the weekends. 
?It wasn?t financially worthwhile to buy or lease a car right now,? said Fruchtman, who is studying to be a certified public accountant and lives with his girlfriend in a rented apartment in San Francisco. 
?I never considered buying,? he said. ?It didn?t make sense to tie ourselves down right now.? 
[h=2]High Fashion[/h]That attitude extends to clothes. Rent the Runway, a website that offers high-fashion gowns and other couture for around 10 percent of the purchase price, is also targeting younger consumers. President Jennifer Fleiss, 28, said its business model is ?almost recession proof.? Since its start in 2009, the company has grown to about 3 million online members and is adding approximately 100,000 per month. In May 2011, the New York-based company raised $15 million in venture capitalfrom outside investors, said Fleiss. Rent the Runway members typically range from 15 to 35 years old, she said. 
Lindsay Abrams, 22, started working in 2009 as an on-campus representative at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee, one of 175 colleges with company-sponsored teams to drive brand awareness. 
[h=2]Important Part[/h]?The recession has been an important part of Rent the Runway?s popularity,? said Abrams, who has rented about 15 dresses and is now a customer communications associate for the company. ?For people my age, the new thing is renting versus buying. It is a great way to save money.? 
Furniture companies are also getting in on the act. Chantilly, Virginia-based CORT, the world?s largest provider of rental furniture, boosted its efforts in 2009 to reach college students and younger customers. 
Koepsell, the senior vice president, said the company was?foolish? not to aim for the market earlier. Last year, CORT provided furniture to about 15,000 students and predicts that number will grow to 25,000 this year. 
Among CORT?s customers is Michael Ferraiolo, a 20-year-old senior at Virginia Tech, who pays $198 monthly for everything from beds to a coffee table to furnish the rented townhouse he shares with two roommates in Blacksburg, Virginia. 
?With the job market such an uncertainty, none of us know where they are going to end up,? Ferraiolo said. ?Now, more than ever, you see people moving around in different job markets all throughout their career. We just don?t know what to expect.? 
Shifting attitudes about larger purchases aren?t the only reason preventing young consumers from buying. Stricter lending practices and higher requirements for down payments on houses and cars are crowding out buyers, Blanchflower, the Dartmouth economist, said. 
[h=2]Build Wealth[/h]For those who choose to rent not buy, there?s a price to pay, said Lubell of the Center for Housing Policy. By foregoing purchases of assets like homes, young people are giving up on a chance to build wealth, he said. 
?What you are seeing is a delay in all the kinds of decisions that require a long-term financially stable future,?Lubell said. ?That?s home purchases, that?s marriage and that?s having kids.? 
Anselmo, the health consultant who rents an apartment in Austin, Texas, says he understands such arguments. Even so, he can?t bring himself to buy a house. 
?The logical person in me gets pissed off when I write a check every month and it just goes down the drain,? he said.?But we are very hesitant.?


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## LAM (Aug 10, 2012)

depending on the area there is not much future wealth in homes, not when you look at the lack of any future population boom and the inevitable collapse of the fiat dollar.  with the passage of TRA97 and the change in capital gains the middle class home went from being a long term investment that was a lock in terms if an investment to a short-term commodity.

smart home buyers in the future will also not waste their money on large homes with lots of extra square footage (high vaulted ceilings, etc.).  they will opt for the smaller home that is more cost effective to heat/cool depending on the geographical area.


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## Dale Mabry (Aug 10, 2012)

LAM said:


> smart home buyers in the future will also not waste their money on large homes with lots of extra square footage (high vaulted ceilings, etc.).  they will opt for the smaller home that is more cost effective to heat/cool depending on the geographical area.



If you don't need it, don't heat it.


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## Decker (Aug 11, 2012)

Big Pimpin said:


> For decades, we have often heard that the  journey to career success requires a college degree. While we all want  the best for our children, as parents, it is imperative that we pause to  examine the educational myth that permeates society and choose whether  or not to perpetuate this mentality. Yes,  college has its place for those who know the EXACT career path they  wish to pursue. For everyone else, and with rare exception, it's a  social experiment.
> 
> If  you send your child to college expecting a solid return on your  investment, start playing the Lotto. You have a better chance of  winning.
> 
> ...


Typical hyperutilitarian capitalistic nonsense.  Education is its own reward.  Just like life.  Putting a dollar sign on everything only indicates a psychosis.

The only waste comes from charlatans with no business in the educational field.


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## maniclion (Aug 11, 2012)

Jeeper said:


> I am a divoce lawyer and the success of the top 10% of my clients, based on net worth,  has nothing to do with a college education.  They were risk takers who started businesses.  I have had HVAC guys making $2 million a year, and plumbers doing the same.  They are not doctors and lawyers from Harvard, they were smal business owners who created something.  And from what I see it is actually not a trait that is taught in any school.  The funny side is that a much higher percentage of my clients who were born abroad start businesses.



My mother and father were 9th grade drop-outs, both ended up starting their own businesses.  My father did hvac for a few years and we had 2 homes.  Our weekday home and our weekend home by the lake.  After a while though he realized that if he continued with his own business he'd have less time to spend with me and my brother, so he took an hvac job at the college near our lakehouse.  Best thing he did my last 2 years of high school we went hunting, fishing, boating all the time.  I'm always glad I got that time before he died.  My mom has her own bail bonding business and just got my sister started on her own bail bonds biz too.  There will always be crime so I think they are set to be just fine.


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## MDR (Aug 12, 2012)

Education is invaluable, but I agree that the cost of higher ed. has gone through the roof, especially considering what kids will likely make when they graduate.  I see many loan defaults in the future.


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## LAM (Aug 12, 2012)

MDR said:


> Education is invaluable, but I agree that the cost of higher ed. has gone through the roof, especially considering what kids will likely make when they graduate.  I see many loan defaults in the future.



that's what happens when education becomes "for profit"


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## hypo_glycemic (Aug 12, 2012)

LAM said:


> that's what happens when education becomes "for profit"


Absolutely LAM.. Good take on both post!!


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## Gregzs (Sep 25, 2012)

Why college tuition keeps rising - CBS News

[h=1]Why college tuition keeps rising[/h]By Lynn O'Shaughnessy (CBS MoneyWatch) For more than a decade, college tuition has been rising far beyond the rate of inflation at public colleges and universities. According to College Board figures, tuition and fees increased 5.4 percent annually above inflation in the decade since the 2001-2002 school year. Ouch.
A commentary that I saw from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York this week goes a long way towards explaining why students at public universities are getting pounded by soaring tuition. The main culprits seem to be state governments that have been ratcheting back their financial support.
*Shrinking financial support for public universities*

Here are some facts about why college students at state schools, which is where the majority of Americans receive their college degrees, are feeling the pinch:
1. From 2000 to 2010, funding per pupil at state universities fell by 21 percent - from $8,257 to $6,532 in inflation adjusted dollars.
2. Since 2008, when the recession hit, total public funding for higher education has declined by 14.6 percent.
3. Higher-ed support from states has varied dramatically. For instance, in 2010, the percentage change in public funding per pupil ranged from a negative 18 percent to a positive 16.7 percent. In California and New York, public funding declined by 11.6 percent and 7.5 percent respectively. The big winner was North Dakota, flush with energy money, which boosted its commitment to higher education by 16.7 percent, followed by Texas at 6.6 percent.
4. In every year from 2001 to 2011, at least a third of states experienced funding cuts and in more than half of those years, two-thirds of states did.
5. _Real net average tuition_ at state universities, which is the price after grants are deducted, rose 33.1 percent ($3,415 to $4,546). In comparison, average net tuition at private institutions has risen 21.2 percent during the same period.
6. Before 2007, changes in tuition at public universities did not appear to be linked closely with public funding.
*Tuition bottom line*

What did economists at the Federal Reserve Bank make of these statistics?
They noted that federal funding, such as Pell Grants, is often blamed for driving up college costs. When low-income and middle-income students receive federal grants to attend college, the argument goes, the institutions simply raise their prices to reflect this aid.

The economists, however, suggest that there is "strong suggestive evidence" that decreases in state and local funding of public universities are linked to tuition increases, particularly since the recession. They find this troubling and suggest that college students will have to shoulder even more of the college cost burden in the future.


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## LAM (Sep 25, 2012)

some people fail to recognize the order of events in things dealing with the subject of economics, needless to say it's a rather important detail when establishing cause & effect.

kind of like when wages stagnate, jobs shift to lower wages, inflation increases AND simultaneously the percentage of the population that receives benefits for TANF, etc. increases.


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## ebn2002 (Sep 26, 2012)

I know you can academically argue things, but here is what I see in real life every day.  I have a degree, work at a mjor wirehouse as a stock broker.  ALL my friends without degrees are waiters, lawn/snow workers, drug dealers, bounce from job to job selling shit for commission over the phone, etc..  None of them have any stability in their career, as they are easily replaced by anyone on the street because they have no special training.  This is just what I see every day and that is all that matters to me.

And if you pay $40,000 for a communications degree, than you should have saved your money and not went to school.  People go the easy route and get a shitty degree and wonder why they can't make more money.  If you get a good degree, not liberal arts or general studies or communications or gym teacher shit you will make more money than people without a degree, period.  You have the occasional non-graduate business owner that gets rich but the odds are better for college graduates.


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## LAM (Sep 26, 2012)

ebn2002 said:


> I know you can academically argue things, but here is what I see in real life every day.  I have a degree, work at a mjor wirehouse as a stock broker.  ALL my friends without degrees are waiters, lawn/snow workers, drug dealers, bounce from job to job selling shit for commission over the phone, etc..  None of them have any stability in their career, as they are easily replaced by anyone on the street because they have no special training.  This is just what I see every day and that is all that matters to me.
> 
> And if you pay $40,000 for a communications degree, than you should have saved your money and not went to school.  People go the easy route and get a shitty degree and wonder why they can't make more money.  If you get a good degree, not liberal arts or general studies or communications or gym teacher shit you will make more money than people without a degree, period.  You have the occasional non-graduate business owner that gets rich but the odds are better for college graduates.



in a consumption based economy how much the people around you in the community make is just as important.  wages for most degree workers not working in the FIRE sector have not moved in decades once adjusted for inflation.  and it now takes 2 adult workers at full time employment to bring in the income that one full time male worker did in the 70's and earlier.
$65k in 2012 has the same buying power as $38K had in 1990.  a person earning $100k in 2000 has to earn $170 to have the same purchasing power.  there are many in the upper middle range that are not seeing any wages increases not even cost of living.  which means every year they are earning less and less.

financial changes and deregulation have effected many interest rates so a person can't even earn any interest with a savings/checking deposit account as the APR is several percentage points below the real inflation rate.

the problems that the economy had in the 70's are worst now as expected.  the economy has been hollowed out and the low wage service sector based economy in the US is a joke as it's where almost 70% of the total workforce is employed.  the US will turn into Mexico in another half century give or take a decade or two.  there are permanent negative economic effects after every recession and the current trend of overvalued asset bubble/burst cycles is just going to continue and each recession will be worst than the last.


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## heckler7 (Sep 26, 2012)

another example how bean counters are ruining our nation.
1 its not and investment for your portfollio, its your childs education. I dont worry about where the return is on my childs food, clothes and toys.
2 without experience you will always start on the ground floor at any firm, but you work hard and prove yourself, the entry with a degree will get the promotion
the entry without will stay at the ground floor.
3 I see alot more engineers with bad english but have the degree and skill. The best engineers I ever worked with were americans, but I havent worked with an american in years, and the last guy I worked with who was in charge was persion fellow with an attitude thought he was the shit but had very little knowledge of the system he was working with.

our country desperately needs more education, and if that doesnt get thru to people we will be taking more orders from foriegners with the more credentials and less background relying on the people beneath them to carry them.
jus sayn


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## jay_steel (Sep 26, 2012)

My opinion with education is every one feels its their right to get an education period. I read an article from professor once and he flat out said one of the biggest issues is universities are stealing peoples money. There are way to many classes and they allow to many people to coast through to their degree. This puts students that achieve excellence with their education at the same value as some one cruising along. He then went on to state that how he should be able to fail students for getting a C and maybe a low B. The problem is many of these classes are 1000$ plus at large or private universities. He defended that response with, if I have an engineer working for me and he is only 70% accurate or 80% accurate that means he fails 20-30% of the time. Why should a student be passed along the class when they only understand 70% of what was taught. 

He further went on to state that he feels they should create a computer generated program that calculates what sections each student is suffering in based on test results. Then have them revisit those sections and be tested again on what they were lacking. If they can then retake the final test and score in the 90% then they will pass the class. This would save each student money and time, or the other outcome make them take the entire course over. He stated when he was studying in Europe his professor will kick you out of the class if you drop below 90%.

I think there are many people out there just going to school because they do not want to let reality sink in just yet. They get paid financial aid, grants and ect and never take it completely serious. Yes there is a small % of people that do we will call them the 10%. We need to become more strict with our education. This will make more people serious about it and if you can not cut the rules and the guidlines then come back when you can. I feel that college has become another babysitter for parents with 18-19 year olds, that do not want to send them to the real world.

If I was a parent and had to pay for education I would not allow my kid to choice a degree that is not competitive. If they want an arts degree or business they can pay for it them selves. However, an engineering degree in aerospace from calpoly, PA school, medical school, dental school, ect are all fields that will give some one a realistic job. Or technical school or degrees. I know many people who have their degree's in fashion, interior design, business, and ect and make less then 20k a year not working in their line of work.

My sister in law has a masters in interior design. 60k in student loans and works handing out meals at a hospital and just interviewed to file paper work at the IRS. This was a waste of 6 years.... Then I have a friend who at 24 married mother of 2 got board and decided to start her own interior design business. Did proper networking and now is very successful at it when it started as a hobby.

A college education does not teach you drive and the will to become successful. Reality does that...

I am thankful for my time spent in the military, I have 10 years of IT experience MSCE, (lol failed CCNA, retaking it again should be fine this time) Network +, a T/S level Clearance, Half way to my BS in Networking ZERO debt and I get paid 2100 a month to go to school plus I work full time as a network admin. At 18 my dad told me to have a plan, because life will not hand you a house, a job, or a fair share. You have to start now if you want that home at 28 and want to make money and be debt free. He was huge on telling me that there is no more free days after high school and its time to be a man and work. That is when I joined the military and made my plan to get experience and education.


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## heckler7 (Sep 26, 2012)

I like the idea but that would cost too much to have 30 some students, but individually teaching them where they fall short. I'm sure if they ask teaches for their input com bined they could improve the education system. They do have the CLEP tests, If you pass them you can get up to 6 credits per test. Also some colleges will give you credit for experience in your field. I got my 2year degree in 9 months.


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## jay_steel (Sep 26, 2012)

Just have multiple tests written for each section. So well say each three ch. get a test. At the end of the semester a program generates the test automatically basically taking multiple variable questions from their weaknesses and then generates them a test. Then again it is college and they are adults. They can make it that the student is then responsible to learn the information on their own and can also pay addition $ to the school for added time with the professor or a tutor. The program could easily generate all tests and find out which students do not meet the bar.

Students need to be held accountable just like people in the work force are. It does no good to send a 22 year old out to the work force that has no concept of accountability. Those skills should have been learned from 18-22. I feel students will take school allot more serious if they were held accountable to their grades. My wife told me once that she was not going to take the final because she was guaranteed to pass with her current grade. I told her no your taking that test and your going to study for it. Your job is to go to school. If your not going to give it 100% then drop out get a job and help pay the bills. I pay for your school for you to learn how to be an athletic trainer. If you miss days or not take tests then we are not getting all of our money out of it. She was pissed but understood. I told her if her GPA drops below a 3.5 then she wont be finishing her degree, but can go back when she is ready to be serious. She was upset at first, but told her I am not paying all this $ for her to only learn part of the material.


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## Gregzs (Oct 3, 2012)

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## Gregzs (Oct 24, 2012)

An obstacle to figuring out college costs - CBS News

(MoneyWatch) Nearly every college and university in the country must now post net price calculators on their website to help families figure whether a school is going to be affordable.
  These calculators have been hailed as revolutionary because for the first time they give parents and students a way to determine a school's real price. The tool is intended to provide a personalized estimate of what a particular institution will cost. And often, an institution's net price -- a student's cost after scholarships and grants are deducted -- will be lower than the meaningless sticker prices colleges usually list. 

At least in theory. The Institute for College Access & Success, a nonprofit research group, says in a new report that many of these calculators are difficult for students and their parents to find and use. The Institute examined 50 randomly selected net price calculators. 
"We found that nearly a year after the federal requirement, consumers can't count on net price calculators being easy to find, use or compare, said report author Diane Cheng in a statement. "While some were easy to find and use, others were buried on college websites, had dozens of daunting questions or generated estimates that were confusing, misleading or unnecessarily out-of-date." 
*What's wrong with net price calculators*

Some of the report's key findings: 
- Forty percent of schools relied on old figures in their net price calculators. Some schools used prices from as far back as the 2008-09 school year. 
- Nineteen schools subtracted so-called self-help assistance from their net price calculations, which made the cost look artificially low. Self-help aid encompasses work-study jobs and college loans. This practice is misleading and can make if more difficult for a family to compare results from other institutions' net price calculators. 
- Nearly a quarter of the schools did not have a link to their net price calculators on the financial aid or cost section of their websites. Even when schools did post the link, it was rarely displayed prominently.
- Five colleges called their net price calculators by different names, such as tuition calculator or education cost calculator.
- Most schools did not explain how information submitted through their calculators would be used. 
*Too much information?*

School calculators also varied widely in the range of information they required to come up with a personalized net price estimate. Some calculators asked as few as eight questions, while others asked up to 70. The Institute believes that asking for too  much information is onerous for families. Still, when facing such a large expense, spending 10 or 15 more minutes to answer additional questions is well worth it if the effort results in more accurate estimates. 
While net price calculators can be invaluable, you need to be an educated consumer and avoid being tricked by schools that want to disguise their prices.


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## Gregzs (Mar 17, 2013)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/e....html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130317

[h=1]Better Colleges Failing to Lure Talented Poor[/h][h=6]By DAVID LEONHARDT[/h]Most low-income students who have top test scores and grades do not even apply to the nation?s best colleges, according to a new analysis of every high school student who took the SAT in a recent year.        

The pattern contributes to widening economic inequality and low levels of mobility in this country, economists say, because college graduates earn so much more on average than nongraduates do. Low-income students who excel in high school often do not graduate from the less selective colleges they attend.        

Only 34 percent of high-achieving high school seniors in the bottom fourth of income distribution attended any one of the country?s 238 most selective colleges, according to the analysis, conducted by Caroline M. Hoxby of Stanford and Christopher Avery of Harvard, two longtime education researchers. Among top students in the highest income quartile, that figure was 78 percent.        

The findings underscore that elite public and private colleges, despite a stated desire to recruit an economically diverse group of students, have largely failed to do so.        

Many top low-income students instead attend community colleges or four-year institutions closer to their homes, the study found. The students often are unaware of the amount of financial aid available or simply do not consider a top college because they have never met someone who attended one, according to the study?s authors, other experts and high school guidance counselors.        

?A lot of low-income and middle-income students have the inclination to stay local, at known colleges, which is understandable when you think about it,? said George Moran, a guidance counselor at Central Magnet High School in Bridgeport, Conn. ?They didn?t have any other examples, any models ? who?s ever heard of Bowdoin College??        

Whatever the reasons, the choice frequently has major consequences. The colleges that most low-income students attend have fewer resources and lower graduation rates than selective colleges, and many students who attend a local college do not graduate. Those who do graduate can miss out on the career opportunities that top colleges offer.        

The new study is beginning to receive attention among scholars and college officials because it is more comprehensive than other research on college choices. The study suggests that the problems, and the opportunities, for low-income students are larger than previously thought.        

?It?s pretty close to unimpeachable ? they?re drawing on a national sample,? said Tom Parker, the dean of admissions at Amherst College, which has aggressively recruited poor and middle-class students in recent years. That so many high-achieving, lower-income students exist ?is a very important realization,? Mr. Parker said, and he suggested that colleges should become more creative in persuading them to apply.        

Top low-income students in the nation?s 15 largest metropolitan areas do often apply to selective colleges, according to the study, which was based on test scores, self-reported data, and census and other data for the high school class of 2008. But such students from smaller metropolitan areas ? like Bridgeport; Memphis; Sacramento; Toledo, Ohio; and Tulsa, Okla. ? and rural areas typically do not.        
These students, Ms. Hoxby said, ?lack exposure to people who say there is a difference among colleges.?        

Elite colleges may soon face more pressure to recruit poor and middle-class students, if the Supreme Court restricts race-based affirmative action. A ruling in the case, involving the University of Texas, is expected sometime before late June.        

Colleges currently give little or no advantage in the admissions process to low-income students, compared with more affluent students of the same race, other research has found. A broad ruling against the University of Texas affirmative action program could cause colleges to take into account various socioeconomic measures, including income, neighborhood and family composition. Such a step would require an increase in these colleges? financial aid spending but would help them enroll significant numbers of minority students.        

Among high-achieving, low-income students, 6 percent were black, 8 percent Latino, 15 percent Asian-American and 69 percent white, the study found.        

?If there are changes to how we define diversity,? said Greg W. Roberts, the dean of admission at the University of Virginia, referring to the court case, ?then I expect schools will really work hard at identifying low-income students.?        
Ms. Hoxby and Mr. Avery, both economists, compared the current approach of colleges to looking under a streetlight for a lost key. The institutions continue to focus their recruiting efforts on a small subset of high schools in cities like Boston, New York and Los Angeles that have strong low-income students.        

The researchers defined high-achieving students as those very likely to gain admission to a selective college, which translated into roughly the top 4 percent nationwide. Students needed to have at least an A-minus average and a score in the top 10 percent among students who took the SAT or the ACT.        

Of these high achievers, 34 percent came from families in the top fourth of earners, 27 percent from the second fourth, 22 percent from the third fourth and 17 percent from the bottom fourth. (The researchers based the income cutoffs on the population of families with a high school senior living at home, with $41,472 being the dividing line for the bottom quartile and $120,776 for the top.)        

Winona Leon, a sophomore at the University of Southern California who grew up in West Texas, said she was not surprised by the study?s results. Ms. Leon was the valedictorian of her 17-member senior class in the ranch town of Fort Davis, where Advanced Placement classes and SAT preparation were rare.        
?It was really on ourselves to create those resources,? she said.        

She first assumed that faraway colleges would be too expensive, given their high list prices and the cost of plane tickets home. But after receiving a mailing from QuestBridge, an outreach program for low-income students, she came to realize that a top college might offer her enough financial aid to make it less expensive than a state university in Texas.        

On average, private colleges and top state universities are substantially more expensive than community colleges, even with financial aid. But some colleges, especially the most selective, offer enough aid to close or eliminate the gap for low-income students.        

If they make it to top colleges, high-achieving, low-income students tend to thrive there, the paper found. Based on the most recent data, 89 percent of such students at selective colleges had graduated or were on pace to do so, compared with only 50 percent of top low-income students at nonselective colleges.        
The study will be published in the Brookings Papers on Economic Activity.        

The authors emphasized that their data did not prove that students not applying to top colleges would apply and excel if colleges recruited them more heavily. Ms. Hoxby and Sarah Turner, a University of Virginia professor, are conducting follow-up research in which they perform random trials to evaluate which recruiting techniques work and how the students subsequently do.        

For colleges, the potential recruiting techniques include mailed brochures, phone calls, e-mail, social media and outreach from alumni. Another recent study, cited in the Hoxby-Avery paper, suggests that very selective colleges have at least one graduate in the ?vast majority of U.S. counties.?


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## LAM (Mar 17, 2013)

those from the underclass or even middle-class are never welcomed in the circles of the wealthy no matter how intelligent or talented they may be.  I never experienced it myself but my sister did.  she went to a very prestigious all girls private school where she was the "poor black girl" while on the other end of the spectrum I went to public school and was the "rich black kid".


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## Gregzs (May 19, 2013)

School for Travel Writing, Photography, Filmmaking | Travel Journalism | MatadorU


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## Gregzs (Aug 6, 2013)

MBA.com: Online degrees getting big, and expensive

MBA.com: Online degrees getting big, and expensive

Carlo Pedrazzini isn't your typical new MBA graduate from a top-tier school. 

He's one of the first students to complete the online master's in business administration program at the Kenan-Flagler Business School at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill. 

Back when the school launched its program two years ago, tuition initially cost $89,000?the same as if students attended the old-fashioned way. 

Perhaps that was a bit of a bargain. Now, the degree costs $93,500?a 5 percent increase.

Yet, the steep price tag of taking online MBA classes didn't discourage Pedrazzini from enrolling.


The reasoning? He could stay in California and keep his job at Lockheed Martin. His company was also picking up most of the tab. 

"I think we all saw the risk that an online MBA, a new program, poses," Pedrazzini said. "This was something that the world never saw before ? but I think that it is absolutely worth it." 

Pedrazzini hopes the MBA will help him think more like an executive and open doors for his career. Apparently, so do many other students. 

A program that began with just 19 students?90 percent of whom graduated on time?now boasts 460 students. 

Doug Shackelford, associate dean of the business school, noted that UNC is the first top-20 business school to offer an online MBA program. Shackelford said it teaches the curriculum with the same rigor as the regular program.

"The students in our program spend a lot of time on the road," said Shackelford. "All you need is a broadband connection to attend our classes which are run as video conferencing. They are all live classes." 

This idea of earning online degrees appears to be gaining acceptance in corporate America, according to a recent survey. 

The Graduate Management Admission Council finds 21 percent of recruiters plan to hire online MBAs versus 18 percent just two years ago. 

In fact, the Tepper School of Business at Carnegie Mellon University?another top-20 school?is getting in on the game. It's launching an MBA degree which combines online learning with weekend on-site classes. 

"Without a doubt online is up and coming. People are very busy and they want education. ... And we are more comfortable with technology," said Jim Del Greco, director of the New York office of Global Employment Solutions, a provider of professional staffing services. 

"MBAs do help people. The schools are absolutely critical to your long-term success in the business world." 

But those online MBA graduates could be at a disadvantage. 

Del Greco believes the key ingredient of attending MBA classes in person is building relationships and the ability to interact with classmates 

"If you are talking about an equal school in prestige and academics ? then bricks and mortar trumps online, from what I have seen," Del Greco said. But, he added, an online MBA degree from a prestigious school will take precedence over a traditional MBA program from a less-competitive university. 

What about those who don't divulge whether they got their MBA degrees online? 

Employers will find out. Del Greco said they all do sophisticated background checks.


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## Swiper (Aug 6, 2013)

LAM said:


> that's what happens when education becomes "for profit"



those evil profits!  lol 

supply, demand, and government subsidies plays a major factor.   how can you not figure that out?


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