# Do you follow a religion



## Robboe (Jul 15, 2003)

If so, why?

Because of fear, or because of faith?

I'm always curious to people's beliefs. My time is limited now, but i'll try and keep a float with this thread.


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## naturaltan (Jul 15, 2003)

nt scribbles in his notepad _TDC has opened up a whole can of whoop ass ... hope he survives ... note to self, ducking when you hearing the cry of the religious ..._


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## Robboe (Jul 15, 2003)

Don't cry for me, Argentina, I'm well versed. Not to worry.


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## craig777 (Jul 15, 2003)

Hey TCD, for the first time in 24 years of lifting I had to pray to the porcelin god last Saturday doing legs with Jill. 

Is that a religion


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## butterfly (Jul 15, 2003)

I'm staying fffaaarrrr away from this one


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## DaMayor (Jul 15, 2003)

No, I think this would be worth the discussion.

Kick it off there, TCD. (I want to hear this)


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## Var (Jul 15, 2003)

I was raised Roman Catholic, lost faith in most of it during my teenage years, and started reading up on Eastern religions.  Now I'm in my mid 20's and still don't have a clue.  I really like the ideals of Buddhism (being man based, rather than God), but have yet to find a religion that feels like the whole truth to me.  
  There's my two cents for you TCD.  

<edit>  Oh yeah...I think for me it's both fear and faith.  Of course if there's no afterlife, I won't be around to worry about it anyway.


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## flexy (Jul 15, 2003)

yes. bodybuilding.


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## Jodi (Jul 15, 2003)

Oh boy!  This will be fun to watch


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## Var (Jul 15, 2003)

I love debates about religion.  Always a firey topic.  Seems like the IM'ers are timid about this one though.


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## kuso (Jul 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Var *_
> I love debates about religion.  Always a firey topic.  Seems like the IM'ers are timid about this one though.



I think a few remember the shit storm at another board about it is all.....personally I don`t mind at all...debate away.


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## Rissole (Jul 15, 2003)

Yeah, i'm a Christian. Been one for about 10yrs now.


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## Dale Mabry (Jul 15, 2003)

I subscribe to my own perswonal beliefs.  I do not know what they are yet, gimme a couple hundred more years and I will be able to tell you more.  I find nothing wrong with religion if that is the particular philosophy you follow, just stay away from little boys and I don't have any issues with you.


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## J'Bo (Jul 15, 2003)

Well here comes J'Bo ready to start shit once again  

i was born a ukranian catholic and really i have no idea what that means....all i remember is having to be dragged out of the house on Sunday morning in a frilly little dress and pig tails....we had to go into this horid church that had tiny little doors (like in that kids movie that still frightens me) and creeky floors and smelled like bleach...we had to listen to someone speak about who knows what and color....then we begged our dad to take us for ice cream and we always went home for crackers and cheese instead 
after about 3 years we all stopped going cause everyone whined too much.

about 2 years ago i decided to make my grandmother happy and go to see what church was all about once again. 
*please dont bash me for saying this its only my impression on the church i was at*
i could not believe some of the things these people were saying and it made me very sad to hear...i left wondering if children should be explained religion more instead of brain washed and led to believe that one churches or one priests way is the correct way.

last year my father was getting remarried and wanted to have a church ceremony with his new wife (who had never been married before)....they werent allowed to go in because he was divorced and he would have had to have his first marriage anoled (however you spell it)....he refused because that would have meant that i was never born....i commend him.

after that i began to search inside myself for strength and power rather than going to listen to someone preach about something that doesnt mean anything to me. i have found it and have found a religion that isnt comprised of me chanting "i give my life to you" and so forth....

sorry for getting deep.


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## Dale Mabry (Jul 15, 2003)

Last year, my nephew had some sort of religious event occur on his 1st birthday, I think it was a christening.  So, once the ceremony finished, we were all in the lobby and some friend of my borthers in-laws went to my nephew and said, "Hello little Adam, now your not a little pagan anymore."

I just thought that was a funny little story.


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## J'Bo (Jul 15, 2003)

yah well apparently my little brother was a bastard til he was 3....i never understood that until now (2 years later) and he whines all the time  just joking. he is my  and soul.


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## S.O.S (Jul 15, 2003)

most of my family is Irish and Chatolic. Now, i do believe in God or some form of a higher power but i dont believe in church or most any form of organized religion that wants you to come to some building every week and pray for what they consider to be your sins. I dont know what God is or what the purpose of life is but i dont belive most religions do either. while most of the ideas in any religion are good the way they try to make you belive one religion is going to lead you down a path to salvation any better the another religion is wrong. while i find nothing wrong with people going to church or temple or whatever i dont like it when they start a discussion on religion and get mad when you dont believe the same as them. now i am not educated enough on all religions to consider them all the same nor am i planning on learning more about them. i am just going to live life the way i want, hopefully make the right chooses acorrding to what i beleive is right, and be able to properly correct mistakes i might make. but this is just my opinion.


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## Arnold (Jul 15, 2003)

TCD, why didn't you include: 

If not, why? 

I do not follow any religeon, cause I think they're all a load of crap!


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## BUSTINOUT (Jul 15, 2003)

I won't get too deep into my personal beliefs, because they are mine and they are personal.  But the original question and how it is phrased, shows how "personal faith" and "religion" are usually misunderstood.  People can easily adhere to a faith, but unfortunately, the misinformed lump them into a religion.  I've seen some religious people do some really stupid stuff...they are human afterall.  But I have also known some very devout, good people overlook much of my stupidity too and not judge me for it either.


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## I Are Baboon (Jul 16, 2003)

I was born and thrust into Roman Catholicism.  I do not practice the religion, but I remain in it out of obligation to my family, who certainly practice more than I do.  I go through the motions during the religious holidays, but to me it's just a bunch of rituals.  I find it ludicrous to belive that, if there is an afterlife, my fate will be decided upon whether or not I go to church on Sundays and confess my wrongdoings to a priest.  Load of crap if you ask me.


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## Pepper (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> TCD, why didn't you include:
> 
> If not, why?
> ...



Let me ask you this then. How did we get here?

If you answer is evolution...you have a religion. Evolution requires just as much faith as Christianity.

My intent is not to fuel this debate but to point out, everyone has religion and everyone has a god...not the God of the Bible always. Saying that there is no god indicates that you have infinite knowlege to KNOW that there is no god.


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## Arnold (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> Let me ask you this then. How did we get here?
> 
> If you answer is evolution...you have a religion. Evolution requires just as much faith as Christianity.
> ...



You are putting words into my mouth.

The original question asked was: "Do you follow a religeon?"

I never said that there is no god, I said that I do not follow any religeon and I think they're all a load of crap.


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## Pepper (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> You are putting words into my mouth.
> 
> The original question asked was: "Do you follow a religeon?"
> ...



OK, I got you now. You are correct, I was putting words in your mouth.


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## kuso (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> Let me ask you this then. How did we get here?
> 
> Evolution requires just as much faith as Christianity.



Let me first start by mentuoning the fact that I`m quite drunk......BUT....how does evolutionn require faith when we are surrounded by fossils etc maping it out? Sounds more like evidence than faith.


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## shortstuff (Jul 16, 2003)

Ok my two cents-  I don't belive in god as a the christian or chatholic or whaever believes in god.  I do follow a set of morals that would go along with a christian or western religious belief.  But I do have my own variations.  My biggest thing with the whole religios as it seems everyone else here does, is that the churches make too much of a deal about exactly what faith you are and that all others are not the correct one and they will go to hell.  I think that is a bunch of crap.

I don't belive in heaven or hell in the biblical sense but that when you die your spirit does move on to a better place.  

This is not a opinion of someone who has never know a religion or been raised in one, but I was raised and baptised episcapol and then went a lutheran church for some time, never got into it, at tha stage of life in your preteens and teens when you listened to no one.  I have seen the southern baptists, the four square or non denominational churches, the catholic, and some of my best friends are mormon and jewish.  So I have had my eyes open to very different views on this subject.

But I do belive that things happen for a reason and that reason is beyond our control and who or what makes this so, we can never know.


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## Pepper (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> Let me first start by mentuoning the fact that I`m quite drunk......BUT....how does evolutionn require faith when we are surrounded by fossils etc maping it out? Sounds more like evidence than faith.



The fossil record does not support evolution. In fact, the biggest enemy of the theory of evolution is the paleontologists.

There is very little evidence to support evolution.

I read a book called "Darwin on Trial" by an attorney (and not written from a Christian perspective) that does an excellent job of outlining why evolution is such a ridiculous theory absent the belief in a creator.

I'll stop now, I can talk about this for days.


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## J'Bo (Jul 16, 2003)

oh oh here we go.......TCD is sitting back starting to giggle now


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## kuso (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> (and not written from a Christian perspective)
> 
> 
> a ridiculous theory absent the belief in a creator.



Sounda to me like a Christian perspective that doesn`t want to be labeled as such. If I hve a chance I`ll look the book up though 

Anyone anti religion has the sources to back their claim though, as anyone religious has them to back thiers.


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## shortstuff (Jul 16, 2003)

I would love to see the background on the author, obviously he is not going to write how he was raised and what his beliefs and thoughts and views are in the book outloud, but to look at his background could give someone an insite to how the book was written, and being a lawyer he is ab;e to argue his point a bit more effectively then the lay person


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## kuso (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by shortstuff *_
> I would love to see the background on the author, obviously he is not going to write how he was raised and what his beliefs and thoughts and views are in the book outloud, but to look at his background could give someone an insite to how the book was written, and being a lawyer he is ab;e to argue his point a bit more effectively then the lay person



Great minds think alike


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## Pepper (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> Sounda to me like a Christian perspective that doesn`t want to be labeled as such. If I hve a chance I`ll look the book up though
> 
> Anyone anti religion has the sources to back their claim though, as anyone religious has them to back thiers.




My point is that anyone who states "There is no god" is making just as much of a leap of faith as, say a Christian.


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## Pepper (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by shortstuff *_
> I would love to see the background on the author, obviously he is not going to write how he was raised and what his beliefs and thoughts and views are in the book outloud, but to look at his background could give someone an insite to how the book was written, and being a lawyer he is ab;e to argue his point a bit more effectively then the lay person



Darwin on Trial
Phillip E. Johnson
Graduate of Harvard and U. of Chicago. 

Here it is on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/103-2695513-2199041?v=glance&s=books


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## kuso (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> Darwin on Trial
> Phillip E. Johnson
> Graduate of Harvard and U. of Chicago.
> ...



Need we go firther than Amazon then? 

" While the book presents a skewed view of the scientific process, occasionally losing all pretense of objectivity, it may be of value to lay readers seeking a creationist perspective on evolution."


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## Pepper (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> Need we go firther than Amazon then?
> 
> " While the book presents a skewed view of the scientific process, occasionally losing all pretense of objectivity, it may be of value to lay readers seeking a creationist perspective on evolution."



I'd like to see this fossil record you are talking about!
 

If you'll read that book, I'll buy it for you and then you can comment on it first-hand.


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## kuso (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> I'd like to see this fossil record you are talking about!



In general I was speaking of course....though from my limited knowldge the Aboriginal for instance ( or older fossiles ), doesn`t fit anywhere into the bible.....and I think it is the bible that most have problesm with .



> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> If you'll read that book, I'll buy it for you and then you can comment on it first-hand.



How could I refuse that  LOL 

I did take a look at some of the other reviews though ( not only the offical Amazon review I quoted ) and it seems more of the 5 star raters rate many similar books the same way....if you get my drift.


Anyhoo.....I`m not arguing whether or not god exsists......


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## Pepper (Jul 16, 2003)

Darwin's Black Box is good too, but I found it much more difficult to read b/c it is more technical. Actually, some of you guys may like it better.

It talked about the building of amino acid chains, etc. I found my self reading chapters over and over.


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## trinsdad (Jul 16, 2003)

Aristotle once said when questioned about the belief of God, "The only thing I know for sure, is that I know absolutely nothing is for sure."

If fit for me.  

I cannot prove one way or the other to know anything "for certain"  I guess thats why they call it faith.

I will have to wait and see.


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## shortstuff (Jul 16, 2003)

I LOVE YOUR VIEW ON THAT TRINSDAD


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## trinsdad (Jul 16, 2003)

Thank you, lets hope that if there is a God..that he was understanding enough to know that we are fallible humans.


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## bludevil (Jul 16, 2003)

I'm a baptist. 
To answer the original question, I'm religious because both I fear god and I have faith their is a god. Before I got saved I felt the same as many people on this board. Actually I thought the bible was just some book some organized goverment wrote hundreds of years ago to help keep a peacful civilization. But I've had a few personal things happen to me that made me have a change in heart. I started attending church and just felt something in my heart. So, I decided to get saved and baptized. I can tell you (only my opinion, not forcing anything on anyone) that once I got saved, I could feel god working for me and through me. It was and still is amazing, I can pray for certain things and within a short period the prayer is answered. The prayer thing has happened to many times to just be coincidental. I absolutely believe that Jesus Christ was god's son, who died for our sins, and if we ask for his forgiveness then we will be saved. Again, this is my opinion and belief. Not trying to push anything, just answering the question.


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## J'Bo (Jul 16, 2003)

well i believe that when people are troubled they look for answers in something or someone greater than them.....whether it be a role model or god (who ever that may be).....as a general rule look to those you admire and learn from them.


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## shortstuff (Jul 16, 2003)

good point J-  oh i am being tortured at work WE HAVE DONUTSQ!!!!!!


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## DaMayor (Jul 16, 2003)

Religion was created by man, _for_ man. Unfortunately, in some cases it has become a business rather than a shared belief system, which is what has turned people like Prince off. And I agree, or understand, to some extent. Of course, this is not to say that _all_ churches are bad, or that all religion is a waste of time. 
The key word here is *faith.* Now, my Grandmother's definition of faith might vary drastically from mine, but all in all, it is faith that keeps us all afloat. Whether you believe that Jesus was the son of God or just a man, or that Allah is the only God, whatever.....It is our belief and trust in that innate "good" that is housed deep within us that directs and guides us. Not beautiful architectural structures with steeples that stretch into the clouds, not great speakers who inspire us via their extensive theatrical training, not beautiful harp music or a gelded offerring plate overflowing with bills. It's about pressing on when you've asked a question and received no answer, and believing that your kids will do a better job with this world than you have, and maintaining confidence that when it is all over, and you take your last breath, that the light at the end of the tunnel will be more than your brain powering down.
While the movie Stigmata was perhaps not the finest film to ever hit the screen, it did introduce me to the writings of St. Thomas, which were (indirectly) quoted:

"The kingdom of God is within you and all around you. It is not within buildings of wood or stone. Split a piece of wood and you will find me. Look beneath a stone and I am there."

I was Baptist, now I'm Methodist. It doesn't really matter. It is simply about doing the right thing.


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## J'Bo (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by shortstuff *_
> good point J-  oh i am being tortured at work WE HAVE DONUTSQ!!!!!!



cant breath......cant see.....donuts........need donuts.


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## J'Bo (Jul 16, 2003)

ps my god is Vin Diesel


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## bludevil (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> Religion was created by man, _for_ man. Unfortunately, in some cases it has become a business rather than a shared belief system, which is what has turned people like Prince off. And I agree, or understand, to some extent. Of course, this is not to say that _all_ churches are bad, or that all religion is a waste of time.
> The key word here is *faith.* Now, my Grandmother's definition of faith might vary drastically from mine, but all in all, it is faith that keeps us all afloat. Whether you believe that Jesus was the son of God or just a man, or that Allah is the only God, whatever.....It is our belief and trust in that innate "good" that is housed deep within us that directs and guides us. Not beautiful architectural structures with steeples that stretch into the clouds, not great speakers who inspire us via their extensive theatrical training, not beautiful harp music or a gelded offerring plate overflowing with bills. It's about pressing on when you've asked a question and received no answer, and believing that your kids will do a better job with this world than you have, and maintaining confidence that when it is all over, and you take your last breath, that the light at the end of the tunnel will be more than your brain powering down.
> While the movie Stigmata was perhaps not the finest film to ever hit the screen, it did introduce me to the writings of St. Thomas, which were (indirectly) quoted:
> ...



Nice Post


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## shortstuff (Jul 16, 2003)

He is HOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Need I say more, hello Fast and Furious and then XXX(wonder why they really called it that  LOL)


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## J'Bo (Jul 16, 2003)

cause he used to be in XXX movies.....opps that was just one that we made ........hot doesnt even describe that creature from heaven....intensifys when you are a horn doggy too 

pst ss you thirsty on this stuff? cause i have downed 3 liters already


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## shortstuff (Jul 16, 2003)

OMG between that and all the EC and yohimbe and everything I seriously go through about 2 gllons if not more a day (bathroom break every 15-30 minutes  LOL)

Oh I need a poster of him over my bed and him in my bed!!!!


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## J'Bo (Jul 16, 2003)

there is a thread on here just about vin.
i will bump it for you.
i am getting the one of him in the shower.................ahhhhh moment. must leave to get batteries now


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## shortstuff (Jul 16, 2003)

Ok tell me where I can get it and I am so going to love that thread!


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## DaMayor (Jul 16, 2003)

From religion to donuts to Vin, horn doggy, and EC....Yep, I think we've covered all the bases.


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## shortstuff (Jul 16, 2003)

hey to some people food is their religion, look at the state of the uS among other countries and their reliance on food to turn to.


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## DaMayor (Jul 16, 2003)

Ah, you mean, like, a dessert deity?


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## DaMayor (Jul 16, 2003)

Goulash God?


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## DaMayor (Jul 16, 2003)

Supernatural Supper?


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## Robboe (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> Religion was created by man, _for_ man.



Because of cross-references between the many, many religions, this can only be seen as correct. Personally, i also agree.

How do people from certain religions feel about the way their gods and prophets are presented in other religions? For instance, in christianity and all those related, Jesus Christ is the Son of God - quite a point of authority as far as the whole bible thing goes, however in muslim he is merely (a term i use here comparitively) a prophet. 

There are clearly flaws in logic and continuity for all religions. In fact, the faiths are based on writings of many hundreds of years ago. There is no solid proof that any of it actually took place, so when people say they believe because of faith, is it not more because they fear what will happen to them if they don't believe and it turns out to be true? They fear what will happen? In this case, is fear and faith not interchangable?

Do people live in fear of their God(s) and not in love of them? Why choose to follow a way of life that induces fear?

Have you ever considered that religion started out basically like the current police forces of the world as a means to keep law and order, but using that which cannot be explained as a means to induce fear into the people so they follow the rules?

Maybe when certain followers disliked various rules, they broke from convention to start their own religions but included the gods, stories (noah's ark is not confined to christianity and cathlocism alone) and apparations of their previous religions?

Or maybe they migrated and took their religions with them but twisted them for their own benefit? Could this explain why there is a different populus regarding the various religions? (i.e. more muslims in the middle east and asia etc...)

So the ten commandments are pretty much the "stanard" of most religions - ten laws to abide by or else you will have to face the fury of your God. So you'd expect that once you broke one, you're done for, right? Oh course not! You can reconcile your sins and be cleared. 

Hmmmm...This is suspect to me. Maybe the religions worked at first, but once someone believed their ticket to heaven was gone they just got worse? Maybe reconciliation is just a means of restoring order once it has gone? There is always a possibilty and all that jazz.

It worked for a long time, but since science is more prominent these days, more and more people are looking less to the "heavens" since more and more can be explained scientifically. For example, the dinosaurs. No mention of them in the bibles or kurrans, eh? No two triceritops boarded the Ark in Noah's tale eh? Could that be because back then they didn't have the scientific techniques to discover the dinosaurs? Would God not have let on about them? Were they his first "model" of life before thinking "fuck it" and starting again?

I was christened as a child and up till the age of about 15-16 as a regular church goer. Not because i believed (i rarely paid attention anyway) but because i knew it made my dad feel better. I did it out of fear of hurting his feelings, not faith in God. Since science has become more of an interest to me, i don't believe at all. I DO think there must be some sort of super-being somewhere, but that he has nothing to do with the abundance of religions on earth. I DO think that a man called Jesus once lived and was the focal point of the bibles. Whether his "miracles" were achieved because he turned out to be the first hashman or whatever, i dunno. 

The only reason i follow the ten commandments (because i do for the most part) is down to consideration of others and fear of the (heavy) hand of the law. I fear losing freedom in this life, nevermind damnation in another. I like how religion started the idea because he has worked to keep law and order, however, it has also caused problems when people are almost "too extreme" in their beliefs that they are willing to harm themselves or others in the name of it. Case point: 9-11, done in the "name of Allah." Would Allah really approve of such an act?

I just don't understand why people follow lifestyle's based on fear of something they have no solid evidence exists. Is that "faith" or just stupidity?

Answer some of my Q's, and don't ruin this thread.


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## BUSTINOUT (Jul 16, 2003)

Kuso, you are such a drunk moron.  

Just because something conflicts with the common secular view, does not mean it was written by a Christian not claiming to be.  Christains are not the only people that do not believe in the evolution of man...another common mistake. 

NOW GO SOBER UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Oh and hop on AIM sometime you slacker. lol


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## shortstuff (Jul 16, 2003)

Have any of you read the series of books about the end of the world and prphets and, dang it I can not remember the name of them, any one know??


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## BUSTINOUT (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by trinsdad *_
> Thank you, lets hope that if there is a God..that he was understanding enough to know that we are fallible humans.



I think that is all of our hope and many of our beliefs trinsdad.

One thing I noticed about your response, and maybe I am taking what you said too literally or analyzing what you are saying too closely.  But you mentioned that you hope the "God"(Big G) knows that we are fallible humans.  Well since you are using a Big G I am ASSuming you speak of the God of the Bible.  It does not take a Christian to know, of course God knows we are fallible, that was the reason for Jesus in the first place.

As for TCD's reference to Jusus when it comes to other religions, that brings up a VERY good point.  And one that I will never understand.  How can Islam or any other not Christian faith(no slam on Islam or any other faiths so save your flames) believe that Jesus was a prophet and a great man?  Because if he was not the Son of God as he said he was, then that would make him the biggest liar that ever lived.  So therefor, how could he be a prophet...much less a good man?  How could anyone say a liar was a good man or religious leader?  Now don't misunderstand me.  I'm not saying Jesus was a liar, but rather how can people believe he was a good man, if they do not believe He was who He said he was?  That would make him a liar correct?

As for Christians living in fear, you need to read the Bible and understand the reference and context that fear is used.  I know you have access to it yourself, so I will not insult your intellegence by typing it for you.  Everyone wants answers but do not want look for them.

Religion and faith are still being too intertwined though.  Some great aswers though.   some sound like they were taken straight out of some college sophamore  philosophy classroom.  Not all but some.

As far as people looking more to science and less the "heaven" as you put it.  You are right, because you can just as easily twist science to create the effect you want.  It is tangible, and that is ideal for those that lack any kind of faith in anything.  Don't forget Christianity was the basis for the early scientist whos laws and finding are still the foundation of science today.

Great discussion though.  Hopefully it stays somewhat civil.  The only trouble with threads like this, it always invokes people to speak their passion and then they are lynched for being rigid and unbending in their views.  But then again is that not what principles are all about? lol


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## Rissole (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tidalwaverus *_
> 18   For (36) the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who (37) suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
> 19   because (38) that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
> 20   For (39) since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (40) being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
> ...


Tidal, you could've taken the verse numbers out


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## BUSTINOUT (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by shortstuff *_
> Have any of you read the series of books about the end of the world and prphets and, dang it I can not remember the name of them, any one know??



Left Behind.  Great series, whether you read it strictly as fiction or insight to Revelations.


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## shortstuff (Jul 16, 2003)

read it as both but reapproved my thoughts on religion being BS


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## BUSTINOUT (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by shortstuff *_
> read it as both but reapproved my thoughts on religion being BS



Care to share why?

Also, you could not read it as both.  you either read it as a believer in the Bible or you do not not...but not both.

I agree, much religion is BS, but I'm sure our definitions of religion differ.


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## shortstuff (Jul 16, 2003)

i find it hard to believe in all that, i guess some people believe yes I believe no, i will stop so i don't give uneducated answers.


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## DaMayor (Jul 16, 2003)

> I choose to beleive in Jesus Christ. Life is all about choosing



And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

However, it is also perfectly understandable for any thinking man or woman to question their, or any form of, religion.  Religion was always a major factor in my upbringing, as with 99% of people living in the South. (Most of which are Southern Baptists)However, I have always questioned certain aspects of religion, and will continue to do so until my dying day. The important thing is that we (or I) never lose sight of the big picture.....which is what I attempted to describe earlier.

*The Bible as a Historical Text...*
I once had a literature prof. who said that the Bible was perhaps the greatest historical work known to man....and nothing else. At the time, I paid little attention to the comment, but as time went on, I found myself questioning his statement.
The Bible is only as good as the interpretor. Those who follow the Bible literally, word for word, are missing the point. True, some of the lessons taught should be taken literally, yet the majority of the message within is expressed via symbolism. 
Like Rob said, the leaders during biblical times were just that...leaders. Priests were political figures as well as spiritual, and often had exclusive access or prayer rights with God. It seems only logical that they would have used this "privilege" in order to curtail the behavior of the people when they strayed beyond what was considered 'socially acceptable'. Fear is a great motivator...an excellent tool for those who know how to use it, yet destructive for those who don't. Most of this type of goverment ocurred in the old testment, and later we are introduced to a more loving God in the new testament.
Back to the general topic. 
*Convenience motivated interpretation of Religion.....* 
As with every other aspect of our lives, we often rearrange information to our benefit. Humans are selfish creatures by nature.  I don't think we react due to fear as much as we do for convenience. 
*The Ten Commandments.....*
My money says that Moses was the smartest guy in the crowd, who was a bit more in touch with his conscience. This is not to say that he wasn't inspired from above. Since I was not there I cannot dispute this. However, I do think that the Ten Commandments were written based on experience. In other words, all of the things that consistently _didn't_ sit well with the old conscience were written down in an attempt to guide those who were, for whatever intellectual reason, unable to control themselves. Odds are we'd write something similar today.
*Jesus, son of God or Prophet?......*
This is the one that is cause for many _cautiously posed _questions for me personally. Based on the information that is being discovered every day, I often wonder who this man really was. Since this is a volume unto itself, let it suffice to say that regardless of whether he was born of a mortal or omnipitant being, his lessons and life were the message....and that is what is important.


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## BUSTINOUT (Jul 16, 2003)

Thanks for your honestly shortstuff.

Naturally people become defensive and unfortunately, hostile on these topics.  But if you ask anyone here that knows me, I'm NEVER defensive or hostile. 

These topics tend to stay more civil when we say we don't believe in or agree with someone else's beliefs, rather than call them BS.  

That would be like me saying saying your avatar is BS, when I could just as easily say that I don't agree with your choice of bra color. lol   BTW, nice avatar and nice back shot.


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## shortstuff (Jul 16, 2003)

well thank you, i don't want peoploe to think I am just prejudiced and not open minded, I am very and that is how I came to my conclusion, so thank you for the honesty.


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## DaMayor (Jul 16, 2003)

This is just a discussion, not a dispute. Just knocking around ideas. 
Oh yeah, sorry for the book Trouble is, it ain't finished yet.


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## BUSTINOUT (Jul 16, 2003)

Well put DM


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## BUSTINOUT (Jul 16, 2003)

Well halleluah, someone has finally come to this board(shortstuff) and not mistaken what I said and called me names within the first ten minutes that they met me.   Kinda refreshing.


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## shortstuff (Jul 16, 2003)

he he look at another thread i did do that today at someone else  LOL


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## Dero (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> Well halleluah, someone has finally come to this board(shortstuff) and not mistaken what I said and called me names within the first ten minutes that they met me.   Kinda refreshing.


I could call you names.... 
IF YOU REALLY WANT!!!
IF YOU REALLY NEED IT!!!


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## BUSTINOUT (Jul 16, 2003)

watchit hippie boy.


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## Pepper (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> For example, the dinosaurs. No mention of them in the bibles or kurrans, eh? No two triceritops boarded the Ark in Noah's tale eh?



This point is debatable. There is a reference in Job to a "behemoth." (SP?)

I have trouble interpreting Genesis and I get in trouble constantly at my church b/c I intepret the Hebrew word "yom" in Genesis to mean either a 24-hour day or a period of time. Don't get me wrong, I believe the theory of evolution is one of the most unsupported scientific theories of all time. I am not motivated by a desire to reconcile the Bible with evolution. Evolution is absurd.

However, if "yom" means a period of time, we have an easier time with the dinosaurs and the apparent age of the earth.

I am a Christrian. I believe that before the foundation of the world, God chose me and therefore I believe. I believe in the Bible. I believe God sent Jesus Christ to die for MY sin and those who believe in him will inherit the kingdom of God (Heaven.) Those who do not, will not. That message may be offesive to some, but it is the Gospel and I believe it.


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## Pepper (Jul 16, 2003)

I should point out that by evolution, I am not talking about what is refered to as micro-evolution. The best example of micro-evolution would be the polar bear. Clearly, white bears have an advantage in the polar regions so white bears survived.....

this type of species adaptation does clearly happen.

However, a fish sprouting wings or legs ...ah....no!


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## OceanDude (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> If so, why?
> Because of fear, or because of faith?



I enjoin this discussion not to debate but to state a portion of my beliefs. 

Little can be expressed in written word to adequately convey my feelings here. So I am compelled somewhat beyond prose and more toward imagery and metaphor to convey some small part of this.  Suffer me if you will.

Yes I do [follow a Religion] just like everyone else does (if you think you are not then you are deceiving yourself). I do so because I hold with conviction that the very nature of humankind is much more than can be readily fathomed or conceived from a parochial and temporal state of physical and intellectual insight; and I thereby reject the religion of secularism or humanism and endeavor to follow Christian traditions and teachings.

An intimate link with The Divine Creator is available to those who do not distract themselves. This is the Source of my conviction. I assert this axiomatically from a perspective that I trust and personally know to be true. Rather than grasping for equality with God as one would pick an apple in the garden I have come to realize it is much more polite and proper to trust that the garden grows for a purpose.  And there is always the high hope we may be invited to share in a complete banquet rather than sit outside the gates in cold isolation clutching stolen fruits; fruits that appeal only to a particular and narrow taste or current fancy (thesis) de-jour. 

My intellect, for the portion that I have been granted, is stunned into reverent silence by the magnificent order present in Creation. It screams with deafening majesty ??? can???t you hear it too?  It???s inconceivably infinite in grandeur, beauty and mystery; and this is only from what is discernable to human perception. No doubt there is boundless more. This dichotomy between perception and ???What Is??? hidden ignites inspiration and brings a fiery twinkle to the eyes of any inclined to seek out truth. And the awareness of that dichotomy and the admission of imperfection is perhaps the great sieve that separates the goats from the sheep. I have come to believe that indifference or the pious devotion to uninspired human explanation (which stems from infantile humanistic logic) always leads to vanity, self worship (the big modern false god and religion of self), and eventually self-destruction. Not all things in Creation are causal or explainable solely from the physical dimension. The only bridge of logic I offer here is that God is Truth and God is manifest in Spirit; and the Truth must be consistently manifest in all things past, present and future; and Truth consistently exists in both physical and spiritual dimensions. So truth centered logic that considers spiritual dimensions can be instrumental ??? but it takes more. Yes this requires the gift of Faith ??? so ask for it!

I embrace a Fransiscan perspective. The Moon light compliments the eye???s fiery twinkle; and the Moon???s illumination is a soft reflection received from the Sun (concept borrowed from St. Franci's ???Brother Sun, Sister Moon???); and the Sun is but a small but purposely placed point of twinkling light in the Cosmos. The Cosmos is but a single reflection from a single facet of the Creator???s Will. Dare we even speak casually about such Majesty? Fear you ask? Wrong question.

I believe that we are beckoned to fruitful participation as beloved and oftentimes errant ???children??? to join as part of a Divine Family; to do our part to advance a Divine Will. I am compelled in much the same way that a child is drawn to the embrace of its parents; with a desire to learn, to grow and to find ways to gain approval or favor. Is Faith a part of this? Yes. I have faith and trust that I will be assisted to grow and to be more than I currently am so that I may more instrumental to actions that serve a divine purpose and honor my Heavenly Father.  

Back to fear. Is Fear a part of this? It really transcends fear. It???s more like profound respect and thankfulness for being offered the opportunity to participate in this wonderful Creation.  Mistakes are forgivable (and corrected ??? sometimes painfully). Fear is only relevant if one fails to accept the divine invitation through willful and malicious rejection or if one becomes useless. Such a person then only adds to the entropy of the great dump (called ???Hell??? in the current vernacular). Hell by definition is to be completely isolated and shut off from God and all his Love, Mercy and Grace and any person or heavenly being that loves God ??? a very scary and lonely thought. But true fear exists only in the absence of God - and God is with us here and now. So I don???t focus on fear since I am focusing on keeping in God???s favor and infinite mercy and forgiveness. If I am receptive to God as his child then it is his job to get me home. What is there to fear if I have faith? God can't fail me if I don't choose to walk away from him. Even if I wander off - he will always send his shepherd to find me as long as I do not hide myself and reject even this act of compassion.


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## katie64 (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> Religion was created by man, _for_ man. Unfortunately, in some cases it has become a business rather than a shared belief system, which is what has turned people like Prince off. And I agree, or understand, to some extent. Of course, this is not to say that _all_ churches are bad, or that all religion is a waste of time.
> The key word here is *faith.* Now, my Grandmother's definition of faith might vary drastically from mine, but all in all, it is faith that keeps us all afloat. Whether you believe that Jesus was the son of God or just a man, or that Allah is the only God, whatever.....It is our belief and trust in that innate "good" that is housed deep within us that directs and guides us. Not beautiful architectural structures with steeples that stretch into the clouds, not great speakers who inspire us via their extensive theatrical training, not beautiful harp music or a gelded offerring plate overflowing with bills. It's about pressing on when you've asked a question and received no answer, and believing that your kids will do a better job with this world than you have, and maintaining confidence that when it is all over, and you take your last breath, that the light at the end of the tunnel will be more than your brain powering down.
> While the movie Stigmata was perhaps not the finest film to ever hit the screen, it did introduce me to the writings of St. Thomas, which were (indirectly) quoted:
> ...


Great post DM, thanks and I completely agree....


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## bekahleigh23 (Jul 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> 
> I am a Christrian. I believe that before the foundation of the world, God chose me and therefore I believe. I believe in the Bible. I believe God sent Jesus Christ to die for MY sin and those who believe in him will inherit the kingdom of God (Heaven.) Those who do not, will not. That message may be offesive to some, but it is the Gospel and I believe it.



this pretty much sums up my belief   I grew up in an Assembly of God church, protestant.  I attended a christian based private school for 3 years 3,4,&5 grades.  People probably see me as a non-practicing christian...but I feel i don't have to go to church to be close to God.  God and I have a relationship, no one understands it better than him and I.  I believe Jesus Christ is my savior.  I believe what I believe because of faith not brain washing or fear.  I feel a connection with God, and until you feel it...you wouldn't understand.  I pray everyone will eventually find that connection and relationship...it is the only relationship sure to last eternity!!!


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## ram84 (Jul 16, 2003)

Pepper, 
I was wondering if you have heard of Dr. Kent Hovind? (www.drdino.com). He talks about dinosaurs and the age of the earth.


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## Pepper (Jul 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ram84 *_
> Pepper,
> I was wondering if you have heard of Dr. Kent Hovind? (www.drdino.com). He talks about dinosaurs and the age of the earth.



No, I have not heard of him, but I will check him out.

I like this on his site already:


> I have a standing offer of $250,000 to anyone who can give any empirical evidence (scientific proof) for evolution.*  My $250,000 offer demonstrates that the hypothesis of evolution is nothing more than a religious belief.



Amen, brother, Amen!


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## Robboe (Jul 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tidalwaverus *_
> Most people want to draw near to God when something bads happens.
> 
> TCD are you and your family OK?



I don't want to draw near to him (he who does not exist).

I jsut read FireStorm saying that porn is against his religion/belief and was quite astounded.


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## Pepper (Jul 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I don't want to draw near to him (he who does not exist).



Then how did we get here?


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## Robboe (Jul 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> As for Christians living in fear, you need to read the Bible and understand the reference and context that fear is used.  I know you have access to it yourself, so I will not insult your intellegence by typing it for you.  Everyone wants answers but do not want look for them.



Feel free to explain.

It is an opinion that ultimately all people who follow a religion do it in fear of suffering the wrath of their "god" in the afterlife.



> Religion and faith are still being too intertwined though.  Some great aswers though.   some sound like they were taken straight out of some college sophamore  philosophy classroom.  Not all but some.



My post?

My post was written off the top of my head last night. I live in the UK and don't know what "sophamore" even means. A schooling term? Also, philosophy is not part of the curicculum in British schools. I've never sat a philosophy class in my life.


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## Robboe (Jul 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> Then how did we get here?



tidalwaverus seemed to indicate that this thread originated from me wanting to draw near God.

At least that is how i interpreted it.


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## Pepper (Jul 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> tidalwaverus seemed to indicate that this thread originated from me wanting to draw near God.
> 
> At least that is how i interpreted it.



OK, I may be confused b/c I have not read every post since last night...so...

but I was asking, if you do not believe in God (or a god,) how do we exist?


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## Robboe (Jul 17, 2003)

I believe in the big bang theory creating matter.

This gave rise to the elements we're familiar with today. Over time things got more complex. Then, i'm not sure how or why, but mitochondria formed or appeared. These lead to single-celled organisms and bacteria and such. Between then and now, evolution.

At least, until something else more believable is discovered, this is the best theory.

If you scroll up a couple of my posts, you'll see my stance on a superbeing or higher power. I just don't see truth in any man-made religion currently in existence.


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## Pepper (Jul 17, 2003)

*TCD re: Evolution*

Darwin's theory was that each species developed a trait that made the new species superior to the old. The new survived, the old did not. Correct?

Riddle me this:

How is 5% of a wing or 5% of an eye (note: not 5% vision, but 5% of an eye) an advantage? A developing wing would possibly have been a DISADVANTAGE, but hardly an advantage. 5% of vision would be an advantage but how does a growing eye provide advantage? And if it does not, Darwin's theory is wrong.

Vision and flight just do not require eyes and wings, they require many other "traits" to be of any use. Were these traits developing (randomly) while the eye was developing? And if so, why? How is a neuro-transmitter to the brain an advantage with no working eye?

Darwinism has real problems and when those problems are ignored or overlooked, Darwinism becomes a religion and NOT science. There is little empirical evidence to support evolution, that is not science.


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## DaMayor (Jul 18, 2003)

Okay, I've got one for y'all. Now, this is pretty far fetched, but something to consider. (keep in mind that this was born of a drunken debate back during my college days)

What if evolution and/or the big bang, and Jesus' were all connected....all part of a project so vast and complex that we just don't have the intellectual (or psychological) ability to comprehend? Obviously, Jesus wasn't from around here...So, where was he from? (Son of) God, right? That's what we are told in the Bible. But where is God? We're taught that he resides in Heaven. Where is Heaven? Up in the clouds? Beyond the clouds? Perhaps somewhere near the outermost borders of the furthest Galaxy? See where I'm going? Yeah, it's weird...fasten your seat belts...
What if the planets, and the stars, the earth, _and mankind_ were all part of an experiment performed by a being so advanced technologically that we could never understand [his] methods or motives? Wouldn't this, to some degree, bring together the various theories that have been disputed for years? What if we are all part of another's trial and error? What if the Big Bang was simply a miscalculation? Oops! Wrong formulation! Boom. 
What if Evolution was driven by factors _purposely_  introduced into the equation as time went on? 
What about Jesus? Could Jesus have been a _representative_ of God? Think about the Holy Trinity...Father, Son and Holy Ghost(spirit)....could Jesus have been a representation of God in human form? Something we could relate to, and hopefully, learn from? Part of a distant race, again, more advanced both technologically and spiritually than we? (Yes, I'm talking about E.T.'s) Wouldn't this explain his good deeds, his ability to heal, raise the dead, levitate, etc.? 

What if we live in a big old ant farm......and we're the ants?

Just something to consider.....I don't pass out pamphlets on this.


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## DaMayor (Jul 18, 2003)

*IM members everywhere scratch their heads*


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## ZECH (Jul 18, 2003)

There is no use in me explaining how God created everything in Genisis because someone will debate it. But here is a good quote.
(God to Job) "Where where thou when I laid the foundation of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding"


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## bludevil (Jul 18, 2003)

I only have one other statement to make, why do almost 99% of people who don't believe in God who are on death row or people who just found out they are about to die suddenly start praying to God for him to forgive them. I think if people would think with their heart and not their head they would have absolute faith that their is a god. 
If these so-called non-believers really don't believe then why do they have a sudden change of heart on their death bed.


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## BUSTINOUT (Jul 18, 2003)

bd, good question.  I think you hit the nail on the head, but it not only applies to people about to be put to death but everyone about to suffer consequences for their actions.  Where people get this impression that they can do anything and everything they want whether it hurts others or not, and expect to get the same rewards as those that lived by the "rules" boggles my mind.  Bunch of welfare minded "entitlement mentality" cases.  But I cannot say that I would not do the same if I were not a Christian and I thought I was about to enter eternity in a very scary place.  So I cannot speak for those folks.

One question I have for all those that are always asking "if there is a god, why do these bad things always seem to happen to me".  Answer me this...why is it the only time you even remotely address god is when things go bad, yet you don't give him a second thought while things are going good.  Just another example of people loving to take credit, but always looking to place blame.  News flash...actions have consequences...god or no god.

TCD, no I do not care to explain...read closer...look it up yourself.  But just as sort of a condensed version here.  Not everyone is motivated by fear and pain.  Many Christians worship because they believe they have been shown mercy and grace.   They try to live a Godly life out of love for God for what he has done for them.  Not always fear.    Have you ever had a teacher or a coach that was your biggest nightmare when you did not play by the rules or follow instructions?  But they were the best teacher or coach you could ever have when you did as instructed.  And in most cases you even learned more when you actually listened.  Did you obey that teacher or coach out of fear?  In some ways yes...you want to pass the class don't you?  You want to make the team and play 1st string don't you?  HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Fear motivates many of us.   We get better educations for fear of failing and becoming homeless or whatever.  Then there are those that feel that even though they did not play by the rules and go to scool and study, they should get the same results and rewards as those who did.     So yes, everyone is driven by fear in some way and to some degree.

As for me referring to your post as sophomoric...

I was actually not even meaning you because rarely do you post a reply that would resembling anything quoted from a professor.  That is not a jab at your aducation level at all.  Just most of the time you have more of a hit and run appoach.  Throw the contoversial topic out there and watch the fireworks...yet contribute very little substance to the topic started.  So, no.  I was not referring to you.  I do however think it is a good topic to discuss.  When people can agree to disagree it is always a good thing.  It is when people shoot down and flame others for their beliefs, yet offer none of their own, that makes threads go to crap...fast.


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## DaMayor (Jul 18, 2003)

In defense of TCD, he has said _several_ times recently that he is short on time. I think he's responding when he can......
(I believe he can spar well enough not to need the hit and run approach.)   

Dude's just busy......

Carry on, gentlemen.


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## Pepper (Jul 18, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> In defense of TCD, he has said _several_ times recently that he is short on time. I think he's responding when he can......
> (I believe he can spar well enough not to need the hit and run approach.)
> 
> ...




Another "defense," there have been no fireworks. Been a surprisingly civil discussion.


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## DaMayor (Jul 18, 2003)

Very true, and very fortunate. 

(although I'm surprised I didn't get nailed for my last hypothesis. )


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## Pepper (Jul 18, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> Very true, and very fortunate.
> 
> (although I'm surprised I didn't get nailed for my last hypothesis. )



I am holding my fire since you are a fellow "hick."


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## Robboe (Jul 18, 2003)

*Re: TCD re: Evolution*



> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> Darwin's theory was that each species developed a trait that made the new species superior to the old. The new survived, the old did not. Correct?



That's the survival of the fittest theory.

Darwin theorised loads, not just once. And he's not the only one to theorise about evolution.

The remainder of your post really is a riddle, cause i have no idea what you're talking about.


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## OceanDude (Jul 18, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> I am holding my fire since you are a fellow "hick."


  
"Lock and load... fire in the hole..."


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## Robboe (Jul 18, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bludevil *_
> I only have one other statement to make, why do almost 99% of people who don't believe in God who are on death row or people who just found out they are about to die suddenly start praying to God for him to forgive them. I think if people would think with their heart and not their head they would have absolute faith that their is a god.
> If these so-called non-believers really don't believe then why do they have a sudden change of heart on their death bed.



Fear.

Quite a good example actually, well done.


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## Robboe (Jul 18, 2003)

By the way, i'm not expecting someone who truely believes to suddenly just think, oh yeah, Rob's right. Let's forget the whole thing. That would mean more or less giving up an entire lifestyle, and not many like change.


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## DaMayor (Jul 18, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> I am holding my fire since you are a fellow "hick."



I prefer to think of myself as a redneck visionary.


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## DaMayor (Jul 18, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> By the way, i'm not expecting someone who truely believes to suddenly just think, oh yeah, Rob's right. Let's forget the whole thing. That would mean more or less giving up an entire lifestyle, and not many like change.




Really, I mean, who are you to play God? 


In reference to your previous comment, "fear.", are you sure that it is fear that motivates a death row inmate? Or is it admission of fallibility? (which could also be interpreted as 'fall ability'.)


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## Robboe (Jul 18, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> In reference to your previous comment, "fear.", are you sure that it is fear that motivates a death row inmate? Or is it admission of fallibility? (which could also be interpreted as 'fall ability'.)



Hmmm...i suppose desperation is also a factor.

They fear the wrath of the (if any) afterlife.

They look anyway for salvation, even somewhere they've never looked before.


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## DaMayor (Jul 18, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Hmmm...i suppose desperation is also a factor.
> 
> They fear the wrath of the (if any) afterlife.
> ...



Do they really fear the 'wrath' or punishment in the afterlife....or do they mourn the life they are about to lose?

Secondly, could it be that they are giving in to the 'good' within themselves before death? Y'know, it could be said that it's much easier to live a 'normal', no holes barred sort of life than it is to lead a religiously guided life.


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## Robboe (Jul 18, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> Do they really fear the 'wrath' or punishment in the afterlife....or do they mourn the life they are about to lose?



Yeah, probably a bit of both, but you can also pretty much guarantee that anyone who releases that their lives are going to meet a premature end will mourn the life they're about to lose, whether it be from execution or accident (falling out a plane for example).

Not every death row prisoner finds God before execution remember. Some are cold and heartless.


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## ZECH (Jul 18, 2003)

To hit on BD's and BO's post a few back............
I think most people have the attitude that they can take care of themselves and do not have time for a God or go to church. This works until actions are no longer up to them or they cannot control what happens. That is when they begin to ask "Why them" It is also then some turn to God in some form. I think weather everyone admits it or not, they want to think that they will be taken care of when they die. And I have seen several atheist turn to God before dying. Now if they believed all their life that there was not a God, what made them turn at the last minute?? Could it be the presence of God persuading them??


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## ZECH (Jul 18, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> Not every death row prisoner finds God before execution remember. Some are cold and heartless.


The Bible says that a person can turn from God one too many times. God only promises one chance. But Thankfully he gives most many!! But if you turn on him too many times he can leave and you will never feel the presence of God again. That is when your heart turns cold. I have heard a guy testify before that he wanted to get saved but he had turned from God too many times before, and he could not get saved. Now that must be a sad and scary feeling. With today's world the way it is, I would hate to know I was not under God's wings and his angels care!


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## Robboe (Jul 18, 2003)

Are you saying that you "sense" (my word, not yours) protection from God?


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 18, 2003)

I love how yall are taking into account the differing cultures and religious attitudes of the world, instead of just contemporary America, when making these sweeping generalizations of human nature and beliefs.

Christianity isn't the only religion in the world by a long shot, so its useless to point out how prisoners "turn to God" on death row when they've been raised in a Christian society. Do you think the same applies to people in Asia or India? I highly doubt they run to the Bible.

This is far too broad and overarching a debate for such simplistic viewpoints. 

Regarding evolution. Anyone that thinks there's no evidence for it, or that can't grasp the concept of macro-evolution, either doesn't understand biology and its related processes as well as the sheer amount of time involved, or is simply refusing to see the facts lain before them. Probably some combination of the two.

The Bible portrays God as a selfish, sadistic liar.....no being that is truly the source of love and compassion could act as that. Free will? Free will and suffering are intertwined. God wants us to choose him? That mere fact by necessity creates suffering. There's no way to argue around that fact. God wants us to choose, then that means He created suffering and is allowing it to happen. 

That's not the embodiment of love. And frankly, I want no part of a being capable of that cruelty.

Fortunately I don't believe that's the case. There's a lot of historical backing for the concept of a gnostic Christianity, the belief that God is the internal consciousness. Our spirits and the concept of God are indistinct. This ideology requires no man in the sky, no system of punishments and rewards, no explanation for evil or good. All it requires is acceptance of one's self and that relationship with the supreme reality of the universe.

There's no creator force required. Everyone seems to assume the universe required some force of external creation. That's yet another example of limited and simplistic thinking. The theistic concept of God is no explanation; it simply pushes the concept of "first" from the physical universe. If an eternal God is easy to digest, why is it so far-fetched that the universe is spontaneous? In any event, there is something that came from nothing. So the creator idea isn't a valid argument.


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## OceanDude (Jul 18, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> ... And I have seen several atheist turn to God before dying. Now if they believed all their life that there was not a God, what made them turn at the last minute?? Could it be the presence of God persuading them??




This could be possible. But, regardless of who or what causes this such a soul is forced to finally look at the sobering reality that THEIR BODIES ARE MORTAL and soon to perish. No amount of intellect and no amount of superior rational thinking they ever had or professed to have is going to be able to change the fact that they have absolutely no power over death. I speculate that they then ???hedge their bets??? and ostensibly convert.  I suspect that they figure if there is nothing beyond death then there nothing to be lost or gained whereas no matter how long the ???odds??? ??? a shot at immortality is infinitely superior to having someone remember them as a ???die-hard atheist??? for one or two generations at best (a rather short lived immortality). What remains known only to God is if such souls truly ???repent and convert??? with a contrite heart and are granted access to his Salvation or not. There are various Christian scriptures that suggest that ??????not everyone that calls me Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven???. These at times seem to be contradicted by others that say ??????everyone that calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.??? Context is important here; especially given the recurring theme that ??????God will not be mocked??? and ??????God is a God of Justice & Mercy???. My personal believe is that God shows mercy to all who ask up to the final moment ??? no matter how many times they have sinned. I also believe that there is intercession by the saints and perished loved ones even at the instant of death when the person can not make the decision due to physical condition. According to most Christian religious dogma (and my belief) Jesus has the final authority to make the supreme and final binding intercession for all that he chooses to call his no matter how severe and ???legal??? the charges presented by Lucifer. No human can fathom God???s mercy. But mercy could conceivably be anything such as consuming their souls as if they never existed to prevent eternal punishment or being assigned to a lesser ???estate??? in heaven or a ???cooler??? part of hell (purgatory) ??? this is where different religious dogma and traditions differ. Frankly these minor details (dogma be right or in error) are not that important to me ??? since I Trust in the Lord.


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## ZECH (Jul 18, 2003)

I also believe that there is intercession by the saints and perished loved ones even at the instant of death when the person can not make the decision due to physical condition.



OD, there is a verse in the bible that says "there is one intercessor between man and God - that man is Jesus Christ".
As catholics believe in praying to Mary, different religions have different beliefs. I believe if this was the case, we would all live like hell and then at the last minute accept God. And you still have to account for your sins after you get saved!


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## OceanDude (Jul 18, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> ... I believe if this was the case, we would all live like hell and then at the last minute accept God. And you still have to account for your sins after you get saved!



Nah, how many people routinely go out of their way to take advantage of their friends, brothers, parents etc. then ask for forgiveness and then do it all over again and again? Excepting for mentally ill or substance abuse kinds of cases fortunately there are really not too many people like this - at least not mature adults. I think most people believe that Sin and offensive behavior has a price. Such a person at some point just won't care who they offend anymore and not bother to ask for forgiveness - they choose to become step by step (for lack of a better word) completely "evil"(well "almost" completely). Most Christian religions believe while there is Life the spark of God still exists in such a person). Asking for forgiveness to an evil person is seen as weak and empowering an individual that they hate or have no respect for. In less severe cases we commonly just call this a selfish person. That's why Christians teach that we still must forgive our enemies even if they don't ask it.

By the way, there is a common misperception that Catholics pray to Mary as if she were the intercessor to God. This is not doctrinally accurate. They believe that Jesus is the sole intercessor in accordance with the levite tradition (extending through the sons of Aaron as the only truly legitimately ordained high priests),  of the High Priest acting in accordance to the order of Melchizedek (a very interesting tradition and tie in to the old testament). Catholics do not "worship" Mary so much as they venerate her as they do the other Saints (and there is a difference). The idea is to ask her to use her special relationship with Jesus and God to join her own "pure and acceptable" prayers with theirs (kind of like prayers on steroids ). She just happens to be very popular (especially with the women), followed by St. Joseph, St. Peter, St. Jude and name sake Saints and all the thousands of others. In fact Catholics commonly will ask for "all the heavenly hosts to join in prayer" for dire emergencies and special catastrophic kinds of issues (like world peace and aversion of natural disasters, war etc.); this includes all the Saints, the angelic beings (Cherubim, Archangels etc.) it is seen as communion and fellowship between heaven and earth not seperate deity worship.


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## buff_tat2d_chic (Jul 18, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by shortstuff *_
> Ok my two cents-  I don't belive in god as a the christian or chatholic or whaever believes in god.  I do follow a set of morals that would go along with a christian or western religious belief.  But I do have my own variations.  My biggest thing with the whole religios as it seems everyone else here does, is that the churches make too much of a deal about exactly what faith you are and that all others are not the correct one and they will go to hell.  I think that is a bunch of crap.
> 
> I don't belive in heaven or hell in the biblical sense but that when you die your spirit does move on to a better place.
> ...



Wow!! Well said. I couldn't have said it better. I didn't think there was anyone who thought like I did.


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## Pepper (Jul 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> 
> 
> Regarding evolution. Anyone that thinks there's no evidence for it, or that can't grasp the concept of macro-evolution, either doesn't understand biology and its related processes as well as the sheer amount of time involved, or is simply refusing to see the facts lain before them. Probably some combination of the two.




I have heard this charge for years and have yet to see one fossil record or any other evidence to support evolution. I think it is the evolutionist desire to have a "god-less" creation has lead them to the religion of evolution. What facts? Name one thing we KNOW about evolution?


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## Pepper (Jul 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_The idea is to ask her to use her special relationship with Jesus and God to join her own "pure and acceptable" prayers with theirs (kind of like prayers on steroids ).



Is there a Biblical basis for this? That is not a sarcastist question by the way, I am seriously asking. My thought is that there is not, but I am open for correction.


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## Nigeepoo (Jul 19, 2003)

My tuppenceworth.

I think intelligent life is inevitable if you wait long enough and have enough "happy accidents". I think 15,000,000,000 years is a suitably long period of time. There have been multiple extinctions on this planet over the last 4,500,000,000 years. If things had turned out just slightly differently, we wouldn't be here today discussing whether we were created or not. Just like on billions of other planets out there.

I think (nobody can provide proof or solid evidence, either way) that there is almost certainly no supreme being. On my death-bed, I may change my mind - just in case. If it turns out that there is a God, I hope He has a sense of humour!


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## Robboe (Jul 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tidalwaverus *_
> TCD just for the sake of agruement if Jesus deciples stole his body then he was not God it's all a lie.
> 
> Their is no resurection or God and we are Fools
> ...



Huh?


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## ZECH (Jul 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Nigeepoo *_
> 
> I think (nobody can provide proof or solid evidence, either way) that there is almost certainly no supreme being. On my death-bed, I may change my mind - just in case. If it turns out that there is a God, I hope He has a sense of humour!


We are not out to prove without a doubt God is real. God would not let you understand how he made the universe. And if you wait, like us Baptists say, you will bust Hell wide open!


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## ZECH (Jul 19, 2003)

Oh and for those of you that don't believe that there is a heaven or hell............... 
That is like trying to make a decision. If you can't decide, you still have made a choice!


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## Arnold (Jul 19, 2003)

Heaven and Hell!  LMFAO!

that is one of the biggest crocks of shit that Christians perpetuate. (no offense)


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## Robboe (Jul 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> We are not out to prove without a doubt God is real. God would not let you understand how he made the universe.



And you know this how?


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## Pepper (Jul 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Heaven and Hell!  LMFAO!
> 
> that is one of the biggest crocks of shit that Christians perpetuate. (no offense)



Why would we be offended by you mocking the Bible that we believe dearly?


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## DaMayor (Jul 19, 2003)

Y'know, to say that one knows _anything_ with absolute certainty is the _epitome of arrogance_.  Whether it be the issue of God's existence, Evolution, our lone existence in this universe, or the best recipe for pancakes.


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## Arnold (Jul 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> Why would we be offended by you mocking the Bible that we believe dearly?



you shouldn't be, it's my opinion and I am entitled to it.


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## Pepper (Jul 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> you shouldn't be, it's my opinion and I am entitled to it.



You are always entitled to your opinion. That is even more true here of all places. 

So, no one should ever be offended by someone else's opinion?

Sorry, calling the Bible "crock" is going to offend Christians.


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## Arnold (Jul 19, 2003)

okay, well I get offended when a Christian tells me I am going to hell because I do not believe in Jesus Christ.

so who is right?


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## BUSTINOUT (Jul 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> I love how yall are taking into account the differing cultures and religious attitudes of the world, instead of just contemporary America, when making these sweeping generalizations of human nature and beliefs.
> 
> Christianity isn't the only religion in the world by a long shot, so its useless to point out how prisoners "turn to God" on death row when they've been raised in a Christian society. Do you think the same applies to people in Asia or India? I highly doubt they run to the Bible.



Well then tell those that follow those faiths to speak up.  Christians are going to address Christian beliefs.  That's where people look stupid is when they address beliefs they have only read about or heard about from some knowitall freshmen prof.


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## BUSTINOUT (Jul 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> okay, well I get offended when a Christian tells me I am going to hell because I do not believe in Jesus Christ.
> 
> so who is right?



It's not always about being right...as much as that may hurt.

I guess the point pepper is trying to make here is maybe a little tact is in order here.  Especially as someone that would like to see their own board carry on somewhat civil conversations.

It's kinda like me saying "Your mom is a bitch...no offense".


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## JerrymeMorales (Jul 19, 2003)

Just like Dave Dramain said in one of his songs to God....

"You've made me turn away"

That's my relationship with God....


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## Arnold (Jul 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> It's not always about being right...as much as that may hurt.


If someone's feelings get hurt that easily then they should avoid reading or participating in a thread like this. They may even want to reconsider being on the internet at all.




> I guess the point pepper is trying to make here is maybe a little tact is in order here.  Especially as someone that would like to see their own board carry on somewhat civil conversations.


I do not think that expressing my opinion about Christianity is uncivil, I did not personally attack anyone. Had I said "Pepper you're a fool for believing in Christianity" well that would be offensive and maybe uncivil.




> It's kinda like me saying "Your mom is a bitch...no offense".


Actually that would not offend me at all, you do not know my mother.


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## Arnold (Jul 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tidalwaverus *_
> I don't think anyone here ever said that to you?
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong



I do not believe that anyone here said that, but my mother has said it to me.


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## DaMayor (Jul 19, 2003)

*jumping the fence again*....I wonder how many others have chosen not to practice 'religion', whether Christianity or otherwise, because they had it shoved down their throat?

There's that pesky human nature thing again!


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> I have heard this charge for years and have yet to see one fossil record or any other evidence to support evolution. I think it is the evolutionist desire to have a "god-less" creation has lead them to the religion of evolution. What facts? Name one thing we KNOW about evolution?



Life started out simple and became more complex over time. Its pretty much that cut and dry.

If you can't get that from the fossil record, then as I said you're either not understanding what's going on or are refusing to accept the facts. Mankind is not an aberration in the records we have; instead, our development is a logical progression give the ancestor species.

The creationist stance that evolution isn't proven is really grasping at straws. Its like standing in clearing and saying that you're not in the woods because there's no trees. It's a really weak argument.

I also see that you chose not to address my points about the God of the Bible being a sadist at worst, or at the very least FAR from all-powerful in the best case.


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## Pepper (Jul 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> If you can't get that from the fossil record, then as I said you're either not understanding what's going on or are refusing to accept the facts. Mankind is not an aberration in the records we have; instead, our development is a logical progression give the ancestor species.



Give me a break, Darwin himself said the fossil record did not support him. What is funny to me is that you insist on belittling those who oppose evolution as simpletons, yet you cling to a theory that has NO PROOF. Who has their eyes closed?

I am not refusing to accept the facts. I have read book after book on this subject and even the evolutions will concede the fossil record is NOT supporting their position.

Christians are not the enemy of evolution, paleontology is. Link me to a report of a fossil finding that supports evolution. Show me the facts that I refuse to accept.


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## Pepper (Jul 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> 
> I also see that you chose not to address my points about the God of the Bible being a sadist at worst, or at the very least FAR from all-powerful in the best case.



That is because this is a matter of faith. I do not want to engage on this type if issue with someone I do not know. I will tell what I believe (that your comments are in total contradiction to the Bible) but what good would it do? Your comments are so off-base and offensive, that there really is no point.

What I will engage on is the theory of evolution. A theory under massive attack lately. I think there are many scientists who would be relieved if you delivered these facts that I refuse to accept. 

This is why  I call evolution a religion, in invokes the same reactions as a religion. Arguements that contain unsupportable statements of facts and "feelings" but no scientific proof.


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 19, 2003)

So there's nothing in the fossil record showing a progression from simplicity towards complexity, then. 

If you're limiting your scope to Darwin then you're vastly missing the point and sweep of the theory.

Since you ask for evidence, feel free to look up any of the following:

The dawn of Homo sapiens. Randerson, James. New Scientist, 2003, Vol. 178 Issue 2399

Charting the Evolutionary History of Life. Sugden, Andrew M.; Jasny, Barbara R.; Culotta, Elizabeth; Pennisi, Elizabeth. Science, 2003, Vol. 300 Issue 5626

Palaeontology: Combing the primate record. Martin, Robert D.. Nature, 2003, Vol. 422 Issue 6930

Magnetostratigraphy of Late Cenozoic fossil mammals in the northeastern margin of the Tibetan Plateau. Song Chunhui; Fang Xiaomin; Gao Junping; Nie Junsheng; Yan Maodu; Xu Xinhai; Sun Dong. Chinese Science Bulletin, 2003, Vol. 48 Issue 1

Out of Africa with regional interbreeding? Modern human origins. Satta, Yoko; Takahata, Naoyuki. BioEssays, Oct2002, Vol. 24 Issue 10

Using the fossil record to estimate the age of the last common ancestor of extant primates. Tavaré, Simon; Marshall, Charles R.; Will, Oliver; Soligo, Christophe; Martin, Robert D.. Nature, 4/18/2002, Vol. 416 Issue 6882

Determinants of extinction in the fossil record. Peters, Shanan E.; Foote, Michael. Nature, 3/28/2002, Vol. 416 Issue 6879

The genetical history of humans and the great apes. KAESSMANN, H.; P????BO, S.. Journal of Internal Medicine, Jan2002, Vol. 251 Issue 1

That's just back over the past year and a half. I can go back further if you'd like. Curiously none of them are stating that the fossil record does not support them; in fact, several of those involve finds that make the picture more complete. Additionally, new genomic and proteomic applications are making it more and more possible to trace genetic linkages. Its no mistake that humans and chimpanzees share 98% of our DNA.

Its also not valid reasoning to call a point false when its true depth is unknown. The fossil record might be incomplete for now, but that most assuredly doesn't render it meaningless or unsupportive of evolutionary theory.

However, I doubt any of this will serve as proper evidence. The argument style presented here seems to place high value on emotive showboating and name-calling as opposed to presentation of facts and logical thinking.

I again reiterate my point that you do not have a clear grasp of the topic at hand to be arguing in such a manner. That's not meant as an insult. Its simply meant that quite frankly, you aren't informed on the topic.

To compare evolution to religion is ludicrous. Being a scientific theory, evolution relies upon physical evidence to make its assumptions. Religion does not, regardless of the fervor either generates. At the end of the day, evolutionary theory can be codified and reliably, repeatably tested. Religion cannot.

My comments are off base and offensive? How is asking you to clarify a quite relevant and relatively indisputable point offensive to you? If you get angry from such questions, perhaps you should re-evaluate your devotion to your faith....which is supposedly a system of tolerance, love, and forgiveness. I find it exceptionally funny how the most "devout" of the Christian faith are always the first to begin the name-calling and aggressive behavior.

Now if you'd care to refute any of the points I made above, or any of the literature I quoted a sample of, feel free. I will gladly debate you on any of those points. However I won't play into emotive diatribe the basis of which is biased facts and outright falsehoods you've seen fit to display so far.


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## OceanDude (Jul 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> ... Name one thing we KNOW about evolution?



Here is a one truth - archeologist's have in large numbers evolved into plausable liers. 

There are many liars and egomaniacs in their ranks. There are countless episodes of them lying to their own community or committing incredible fraudulent ???new??? discoveries over the last 100 years.


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## OceanDude (Jul 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> Is there a Biblical basis for this? That is not a sarcastist question by the way, I am seriously asking. My thought is that there is not, but I am open for correction.



Firstly Pepper, s I am certain you know the Bible should not be viewed as a ???recipe book??? for every single incident in life. In fact Jesus was very much against the Pharisees and Sadducees for turning Judaism into an impossible tangle of rules and regulations that tripped up and made the kingdom of God impossible for any man to attain unless he was a legal and religious scholar. Recall the complaint Jesus received about doing good works and healing on the Sabbath and how he warned them that they would be better that they were not born in the final judgment for making it so hard on the simple ones. This is why in the new testament he basically tore the old covenant in two in much the same way as the curtain was torn in the temple at the instant of his death (thus completing the imagery of the sacrificial lamb replacing the sacrifical offering of Abraham in the old covenant) and formed a new covenant based on jsut two fundamentl principals: 1) Love of God and 2) Love of fellow man (neighbor). He basically said that we made it all too complicated and it was not pleasing to God in the way that man had let the law evolve (there is the evolution word) and become perverted and unmerciful in the old form.

But, Indeed there are many examples Pepper. The Wedding Of Cana. The bridal party told Mary of the situation where they ere about to run out of wine. Mary then asked her son to assist in helping the bridal party's family to save them from humiliation or embarassment. When he replied "it is not yet my time" she lovingly re-petitioned for his assistance and he finally enjoined her request. There are other example s too that specifically invite God???s people to join in prayer together and to promote a "community" of prayer rather than just always use solely a personal prayer or petition: Such as when Jesus asked his disciples to pray with him in the garden at Gethsemane and when Jesus declared ???when two or more of you gather in my name rest assured it shall be granted onto you. So you see we have both a personal as well as a community relationship to God. In fact we are all united as family in this regard.  Just because the Bible does not specifically state that Pepper and OceanDude can pray together does not mean that OceanDude can not ask for one of my Family to join with him in prayer. Fundamentally this would not be consistent with the great command ???to love one another???.


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## OceanDude (Jul 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> you shouldn't be, it's my opinion and I am entitled to it.



As Lucifer, Cain, Judas, Hitler & Sadam were entitled to theirs .


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## OceanDude (Jul 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> I also see that you chose not to address my points about the God of the Bible being a sadist at worst, or at the very least FAR from all-powerful in the best case.



Why are you surprised? Where you attempting to provoke a heated response? Some may be praying for you rather than trying to return the hatred.

By the way, it's interesting that you would embrace a Gnostic position here. Do you expect people to ???buy??? this (your words). Somehow I do not think a person who spews so much hate for other???s beliefs is going to make any points here. You present for consideration a religion that asserts that God (or ???one??? of the gods) became ???jealous??? of man???s creation and that man???s partaking of the forbidden fruit made him equal to God and this is the reason for all the evil ??? God???s jealousy of man. Basically you have espoused a religion from the perspective of the snake in the Garden of Eden. Gnosticism, also focus on how it???s all a big lie and conspiracy committed by men which in my opinion is all designed to cause a conflict between the sexes (an attack on Love) and focusing on power in religion rather than on spiritual dimensions. Gnostics believe that the part about Eve persuading Adam to eat the fruit is a lie propagated by jealous men (jealousy is a recurring theme in gnostic doctrine). They assert that ???Adam??? was inferior to Eve and was destined to be the superior of the two. Ultimately Gnostics focus on Eve evolving to the supreme power and men were to be lesser in stature. No Snake_Eyes, with your bombastic entrance I don???t think you have much credibility here with most. But hey, what ever blows "your" skirt up.  Bottom line ??? no matter what anyone believes or does not believe it will not change what really is; whether you "buy" it or not.


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## Robboe (Jul 20, 2003)

Pepper, the whole idea of evolution is that it's happend over millions of years. You're not going to find one fossil that directly proves it. Basing your decision whether to believe it on something like that is just dumb.


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## Robboe (Jul 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tidalwaverus *_
> Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed?    Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
> 
> 
> TCD we were not there but alot of people were, they all lied?



You don't know for sure that any of this actually happend. You've just read an age-old book that describes it. People have the ability to write fiction, you know.

Harry Potter is a book, does that make him real?


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## Nigeepoo (Jul 20, 2003)

Why does everything have to be "truth" or "lies"? If someone says something that you believe to be incorrect, do you call them a liar, or do you state that you believe them to be incorrect?

I believe that some of the facts stated in the bible are correct. 

1) Are you saying that _everything_ in the bible is correct? 
2) How many times has the bible been translated and re-translated?
3) Is it possible that there may be mis-interpretation of words in the bible?
4) Is it possible that the people who created revision 1.0 of the bible got some facts wrong?


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## Arnold (Jul 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> As Lucifer, Cain, Judas, Hitler & Sadam were entitled to theirs .



so, you're putting me in the same category as "evil people" because I think that Christianity is a joke?


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## Pepper (Jul 20, 2003)

Snake Eyes,

What the heck are you talking about? Where have I called anyone names? It is like we are in two different discussions.

All I have said is that evolution is far from proven and is a matter of faith for its "believers."

If you want to debate the evidence for evolution, I'll be glad too. You have been far, far more insulting than ANYONE in this thread and I am really not wanting to continue.

Ignorant, uninformed, emotional, simpleton
Pepper


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## Pepper (Jul 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> Its also not valid reasoning to call a point false when its true depth is unknown. The fossil record might be incomplete for now, but that most assuredly doesn't render it meaningless or unsupportive of evolutionary theory.



This is a good point. One that Darwin made in his own defense to the lack of a fossil record. I am obviously too dense to understand the articles you provided, but I will do my best. 

What's interesting about your posts is that they are clearly crafted to irritate and, in a way, insult in order to elicit an emotional response. I am somewhat embarrassed that I fell into that trap last night. However, I did not get angry, I simple stated that it was not worthwhile to engage on that topic.

I LOVE debate. Always have. But I will not debate someone who so intent on being insulting.


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 20, 2003)

_*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
*Why are you surprised? Where you attempting to provoke a heated response? Some may be praying for you rather than trying to return the hatred.*

Perhaps you misunderstand. There's no hatred in my tone. Simple inquisitiveness. And what I'm encountering in return is more emotional showboating without the point being addressed. 

Which is leading me to believe you don't have an answer.

*By the way, it's interesting that you would embrace a Gnostic position here. Do you expect people to ???buy??? this (your words). Somehow I do not think a person who spews so much hate for other???s beliefs is going to make any points here. You present for consideration a religion that asserts that God (or ???one??? of the gods) became ???jealous??? of man???s creation and that man???s partaking of the forbidden fruit made him equal to God and this is the reason for all the evil ??? God???s jealousy of man. Basically you have espoused a religion from the perspective of the snake in the Garden of Eden. Gnosticism, also focus on how it???s all a big lie and conspiracy committed by men which in my opinion is all designed to cause a conflict between the sexes (an attack on Love) and focusing on power in religion rather than on spiritual dimensions. Gnostics believe that the part about Eve persuading Adam to eat the fruit is a lie propagated by jealous men (jealousy is a recurring theme in gnostic doctrine). They assert that ???Adam??? was inferior to Eve and was destined to be the superior of the two. Ultimately Gnostics focus on Eve evolving to the supreme power and men were to be lesser in stature. No Snake_Eyes, with your bombastic entrance I don???t think you have much credibility here with most. But hey, what ever blows "your" skirt up.  Bottom line ??? no matter what anyone believes or does not believe it will not change what really is; whether you "buy" it or not. *

You're rapidly showing the limits of your thought processes. Confining one's self to any limited viewpoint is a pre-requisite for ignorance. 

That's only half of the gnostic viewpoint, and in typical narrow-minded pseudo-Christian fashion, you're throwing out the baby with the bath water. The essence of gnostic thought is that there IS no external God, and yes, the God of the Bible is a liar and a sadist, which follows *exactly* with the behavior that being laid out. 

Also if you follow the story more you'll realize that Christ himself was a gnostic; he espoused no old man in the sky. Only the link between the soul of man and the soul of the universe, the internal spark of consciousness that was God. This is dated from gospels that predate those included in the Bible. But as per the ignorance of those unable to comprehend anything but a vengeful God in the sky, that knowledge was suppressed.

And even then, you're still trying to pin me as being "bad" for espousing "a religion from the perspective of the snake in the Garden of Eden." To you, I'm sure that carries quite the negative connotation. To me, it means I don't agree with something written in a book. There's no connotation of good and evil other than the actions performed by the players. So if it means I agree with the snake/Lucifer, then so be it. Right is right, regardless of brainwashing.

Frankly the idea is a lot more reasonable and acceptable to me than a judgmental asshole that wants to sit in the sky and tell me how bad I am when he created billions of people to suffer for eternity. You want to start comparing people to Hitler and Saddam? How's that for a mass murderer?

But my point is not to attack. My point is to clarify. I don't have to get defensive about the topic because frankly I'm sure in my position. I don't have "faith;" I've experienced my connection personally. It seems by the very fact of arguing and becoming upset, you're showing your own insecurity. If you believe as strongly as you say, it shouldn't be an issue to address this calmly and with rational answers. Yet none have been forthcoming.

I've learned to accept such behavior from the followers of theistic religions. There's no rational basis for that belief, other than the rampant socialization involved....in other words, do what you're told and don't think outside of that context. There's most certainly more to the universe than what we see in this world....but things are not so poorly designed that a sadistic madman is at the wheel. So essentially, there are no rational reasons, no coherent explanations for the behavior of the God you follow....and you're showing the fallacy of your belief by getting angry at someone asking questions.

Its not because I'm spreading hate...its because you're not used to anything outside the context of your belief system. Especially one that challenges that belief system, and does so in a way you can't counter. So you react with anger. And the flaws of the ideology become clear as day.


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 20, 2003)

www.gnosis.org

And that wasn't name-calling towards anyone here. It was a reference to those original members of the forming Church that couldn't grasp the concepts being espoused, and thus chose to suppress the knowledge.


----------



## OceanDude (Jul 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> so, you're putting me in the same category as "evil people" because I think that Christianity is a joke?



Oh no Prince. I would never make a judgment such as that about a person I know nothing about. I was simply agreeing with you that there are many excellent cases in history that reinforce the generally held belief that a person is entitled to his opinion. But I also implied with the example that opinions often have consequences that affect more than just the ???individual???. There was also a secondary implication that we should be careful then how we form our opinions and express them.  By the way, some people admire those people I listed but I see you judged them to be "evil" yourself. I tend to agree with your opinion on this.


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## OceanDude (Jul 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Snake_Eyes, every sophomoric, petty and trite argument that you have made is rather amateurishly but consistently crafted to the purpose of provoking an emotional response.  You come across as almost jealous or hateful of the concept of a Christian God or have some kind of paranoia about religious ???conspiracies??? in general. But I suspect it???s more simply the case that you probably just hunger for attention and greatly desire to force a dialog and rebuttal in much the same way a child misbehaves with its parents to get their attention.  You would do better in this regard to work on your style some. There is really no point in further dialog with you since: 1)  I have no interest in ???selling??? you anything, and 2) You are not ???buying??? anything (is being an intellectual pauper with no apparent ability to buy or sell synonymous with ???narrow mindedness????) and 3) You have not yet demonstrated any evidence of intellectual or spiritual insight on the subject and 4) You seem hell bent on arguing for the sake of arguing and 5) You already have all your own answers and 6) I have no time to waste nor any interest in administering spankings. Your discourses are shot full of two-dimensional and shallow deception, deceit and insincerity. More sophistication is needed. Frankly you bore me. If you can change your style and say something intelligent or demonstrate some other form of enlightenment I may choose to enjoin further adult dialog with you in the future. In the interim, trust me, I am not at all ???upset??? or ???angry??? or ???provoked??? ??? just slightly annoyed by your lack of style and really just plain bored silly on my end. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but you will get much higher quality responses and meaningful dialog from people if you try less to provoke and more to encourage two-way adult dialog.


----------



## Pepper (Jul 21, 2003)

Well said, OceanDude


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## kuso (Jul 21, 2003)

I hope that reply didn`t take you 84 minutes to write  lol


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 21, 2003)

So be it then. If you're willing to engage in the very behaviors you're accusing me of, then there's no room to discuss this matter any further.


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## Tboy (Jul 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Nigeepoo *_
> Why does everything have to be "truth" or "lies"? If someone says something that you believe to be incorrect, do you call them a liar, or do you state that you believe them to be incorrect?



Isn't being incorrect the same as not being true?  And not being true is also false?  aka a lie.



> 1) Are you saying that _everything_ in the bible is correct?


Yes everything is true.  


> 2) How many times has the bible been translated and re-translated?


A few.  http://www.carm.org/evidence/rewritten.htm


> 3) Is it possible that there may be mis-interpretation of words in the bible?


 http://www.carm.org/evidence/rewritten.htm


> 4) Is it possible that the people who created revision 1.0 of the bible got some facts wrong?



Possibly a couple of words but not facts.

Ok since I have jumped in here, I am a Christian also.  I go to a Pentecostal church.  I have stayed out of this thread to avoid getting into a lengthy typing match with some, but this seems like it has been a civilized thread. 

So far there have been some really good points made. I would like to add one.

Being a Christian means being Christ like.  Which in turn means following the rules set forth by God in the bible.  It means at a minimum following the ten commandments to it's fullest, and then some, Such as living by the bible and following it's plan for having an eternal life in heaven.

In order for any of this to be believable you must first, believe the bible as a whole and not take a verse here or chapters there and then use that as a basis for your "religion".


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## Arnold (Jul 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> Yes everything is true.



Really? How do you know?


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## OceanDude (Jul 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Nigeepoo  *_
> quote:
> Why does everything have to be "truth" or "lies"? If someone says something that you believe to be incorrect, do you call them a liar, or do you state that you believe them to be incorrect?
> 
> ...



I must agree with Nigeepoo on his rhetorical question. Pragmatically, few if any things within human perception can be known and experienced perfectly as truth. For humans most things are simply approximate models of truth to greater or lesser degree that serve our fundamental needs. Some other things are just blatantly incorrect misunderstandings propagated maliciously (a true lie) or through carelessness as truth when they're really conjecture. In the scientific community there is even a precise mathematical expression for this in many equations called ???epsilon??? ??? or statistical ???uncertainty??? or ???error???. In theology it???s the age old concept of ???imperfection of man??? raising its ugly head. To tie it into this discussion the notion of ???epsilon??? or ???uncertainty??? is metaphorically similar to the Athenians "statue of the unknown god" that the apostle Paul spoke so eloquently of. The Greeks, being fairly intellectually advanced essentially pre-admitted to human fallibility but had the cleverness to ???cover their bases??? religiously (for fear of slighting any god they were unaware of).  Back to ???uncertainty???. Many scientists will assert that this is a built in ???reality??? to all Science since humans can never fully observe something without actually effecting or changing it???s state or outcome. This stems from  Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principal  . This principal basically dooms all human attempts at perfect ???god like??? understanding of the physical universe to utter folly. This small but extremely important principal has in fact given rise to all manner of theological and spiritual linkage in Science. In a manner of speaking it scientifically proves that there is fundamentally built into all of existence an unsolvable Mystery that strongly suggests (if not proves) to me anyway ??? a higher authority or being. We see this when dealing with things at the sub-atomic level where anti-matter and matter can simultaneously create itself to ???balance the equations of man??? and then just as suddenly self annihilate as we try to observe it. Now this phenomenon even emerges at the large scale cosmological/planetary level of observation. There are in fact those that argue that nothing is physically present unless there is an observer to precipitate an ???event??? which spontaneously brings into existence a physical thing or effect through this principal.  In a manner of speaking, through uncertainty Science has ???found??? a basis for religion with profound implications that exist in every single particle of matter and being in the Universe.

So unfortunately I must concede his argument here - knowing full well in advance what this leads to in a religious discussion. This is the fallacy of logic and debate and why I personally do not put all my ???faith??? in these methodologies. We simply can not expect to gain perfect knowledge or truth from discussing anything from an imperfect set of beliefs or observations. However, I think it???s perfectly accurate to deduce that ???inaccuracy??? becomes a lie when it is purposely perpetuated as truth when it is known a-priori to be blatantly false or unsubstantiated conjecture. In the end I believe we all are faced with accepting any point as a matter of faith; even all scientific argument. 

In fact, I posit that nothing perceived from the human dimension is absolute truth (assuming for the moment that such a thing exists) since our human perceptions are so extremely limited and subject to built in biases and imperfect abstract models.  Even in mathematical & scientific areas of study in which there is a great expectation for pure objective truth we always fall well short of absolute truth. We  can never perfectly ???model??? our theories and discoveries in ways that are consistently true in a unifying way against competing theories and discovered facts in adjacent areas of existance.


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## Robboe (Jul 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> Snake_Eyes, every sophomoric, petty and trite argument that you have made is rather amateurishly but consistently crafted to the purpose of provoking an emotional response.  You come across as almost jealous or hateful of the concept of a Christian God or have some kind of paranoia about religious ???conspiracies??? in general. But I suspect it???s more simply the case that you probably just hunger for attention and greatly desire to force a dialog and rebuttal in much the same way a child misbehaves with its parents to get their attention.  You would do better in this regard to work on your style some. There is really no point in further dialog with you since: 1)  I have no interest in ???selling??? you anything, and 2) You are not ???buying??? anything (is being an intellectual pauper with no apparent ability to buy or sell synonymous with ???narrow mindedness????) and 3) You have not yet demonstrated any evidence of intellectual or spiritual insight on the subject and 4) You seem hell bent on arguing for the sake of arguing and 5) You already have all your own answers and 6) I have no time to waste nor any interest in administering spankings. Your discourses are shot full of two-dimensional and shallow deception, deceit and insincerity. More sophistication is needed. Frankly you bore me. If you can change your style and say something intelligent or demonstrate some other form of enlightenment I may choose to enjoin further adult dialog with you in the future. In the interim, trust me, I am not at all ???upset??? or ???angry??? or ???provoked??? ??? just slightly annoyed by your lack of style and really just plain bored silly on my end. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but you will get much higher quality responses and meaningful dialog from people if you try less to provoke and more to encourage two-way adult dialog.



Well, you sure told him...

Also, i find it ironic that he bores you, when pretty much every post of yours i've read has been over-stretched, drawn-out, dull near-novel length paragraphs.


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## Arnold (Jul 21, 2003)

LOL

now you're sticking up for ole Snake Boy, huh?


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## Tboy (Jul 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Really? How do you know?



Because I believe.  

How do you know otherwise?



You say that you don't follow a "religion".... ( I have asked you this before)  Have you ever just got down on your knee's and prayed to be shown some insight to all this? And I mean more than a two line prayer.  Do it when no one else is around if you foolish about doing it.

This would also apply to anyone else with unanswered questions.


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## Tboy (Jul 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Well, you sure told him...
> 
> Also, i find it ironic that he bores you, when pretty much every post of yours i've read has been over-stretched, drawn-out, dull near-novel length paragraphs.



I have caught flak in the past for doing this, but I agree with TCD. 

The point of the post seems to loose itself after about five or ten lines of reading.


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## Tboy (Jul 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Really? How do you know?




It has also been proven to be true on many ocassions, some of it in the past few years.


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## OceanDude (Jul 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Also, i find it ironic that he bores you, when pretty much every post of yours i've read has been over-stretched, drawn-out, dull near-novel length paragraphs.


TCD, in prior posts I have admitted to occasional long windedness; such is needed when there is a lack of familiarity with another???s context and level of common understanding. Here I can only say that some are more efficient at boredom than others. But given your recent 722 word diatribe and admonishment to DeMayor and your present admission that you have suffered my laborious words to great length, it would seem that irony likes to dance in pairs while flirting with hypocrisy. Although you could really do me no greater compliment than suffer me thusly I find it somewhat sadistic that you would only whine as a proxy for another at the end of the dance. Alas, it is perhaps in great suffering that humor finds it???s greatest perfection ??? and you sir are a precious work in that regard.


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## Arnold (Jul 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> Because I believe.
> 
> How do you know otherwise?



Okay, you have faith and choose to believe, BUT that is quite different than knowing that it's true or factual.

I do not know otherwise, nor would I be so riteous to say that I did, which is exactly what Christians do. 

Maybe there is a god, maybe there is not, I cannot prove there is not, and you certainly cannot prove that there is.


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## Tboy (Jul 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Maybe there is a god, maybe there is not, I cannot prove there is not, and you certainly cannot prove that there is.



On the contrary,  I have seen the result of prayer.  I have seen people that have been healed because of prayer, aka miracles.  True miracles, the ones that doctors  on.


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## Arnold (Jul 21, 2003)

yeah, me too on those tv shows, it's hilarious. 

even if I agreed that those "miracles" were true (which we all know it's a load of crap), but for the sake of this argument...that still does would prove anything.

BUT, even if that did prove that maybe there is a higher power, it still would not prove that the bible is true.


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## Tboy (Jul 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> yeah, me too on those tv shows, it's hilarious.




It's truly a shame what "TV evangelists" does the reputation of "real" Christians.



> even if I agreed that those "miracles" were true (which we all know it's a load of crap), but for the sake of this argument...that still does would prove anything.



Are you telling me what I have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears is not true?  I'm not talking about the hocus pocus stuff you see on tv where the "preacher" goes to pray for someone then pushes them down as they pretend to faint. 



> BUT, even if that did prove that maybe there is a higher power, it still would not prove that the bible is true.



How so?  If I can prove that God exists through miracles and actual events that were predicted in the Bible are true...

Look,  You really don't know me that well nor I you.  But You should know me well enough to know that I would not try to feed you a bunch of lies.  I'm not like that.   I also understand that some people have trouble in just believing.  They need something tangible, so it's harder for some.  I was born and raised believing in the Bible.  So it's easy for me.  I did take the time as I got older to find things out for myself.

I'll refer back to a statement I made a couple of posts up,  You don't have to believe me.  Try it for yourself.


p.s.

We seem to single each other out on these things for some reason


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## OceanDude (Jul 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> ...Are you telling me what I have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears is not true?  I'm not talking about the hocus pocus stuff you see on tv where the "preacher" goes to pray for someone then pushes them down as they pretend to faint.



Tboy, just a very few simple and brief ideas for you to consider that may make your arguments more effective: From the perspective of a person who ???does not believe in the Bible??? (whatever that means since there generally is no scholarly debate denying the authenticity of the writings) and does not personally know you ??? your personal stories have probably less weight to others than do those in the Bible; assuming they have read any part of it (which is usually where most are bluffing from lacking any knowledge therein). In the Bible at least there was a consistent progression through a multitude of literary styles of history, poetry, prophesy and instruction written across many generations and penned by many separate human authors; all from different backgrounds, tribes and geopolitical motivations. There were just too many different people with different agenda in the authorship chain for it to have been any kind of plausible pan-generational religious conspiracy. In fact Christ really messed up the Zelot movement of the Jews when he came along (ref. Judas). What is generally not known to many however is that the Roman???s have a separate written and preserved record by a very important and well known Jewish historian named Josephus Flavious.  We find Christ mentioned in his external writings numerous times: "Pilate condemned Him to be crucified and to die" and His disciples "reported that He had appeared to them three days after His crucifixion and that He was alive." I do not have the precise quote handy but he recorded in a separate Roman document sometime after the crucifixion along the lines of ???... surely this was the Christus that was foretold of.??? As a Jew and under the employment of the Romans as a Historian Josephus was not exactly a benevolent agent for Christians ??? so we can certainly trust things that he says that support Biblical references. The authenticity of history thus established and separately ratified from a hostile external source then reduces all arguments down to nothing more than a question of deity rather than history. This is where I would focus. Just some ideas...(sory to wax long)


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 22, 2003)

The Muslims and the Hindu say the same things.

What makes this any more right?

On a side note, about that obsequious passage demuring to scientific theory.....please, please don't just start throwing out chunks of quantum mechanical theory without understanding the context. That paragraph made me cringe with its mis-use of science.


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## naturaltan (Jul 22, 2003)

... and 6 pages later it's still going on.


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## OceanDude (Jul 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> ???On a side note, about that obsequious passage demuring to scientific theory.....please, please don't just start throwing out chunks of quantum mechanical theory without understanding the context. That paragraph made me cringe with its mis-use of science.


I would suppose that you are referring to my post and reference to Hesenberg???s Uncertainty Principal. I assure you that as a Scientist I can speak with some weight on this principal; even though I do not fully subscribe to the full gambit of quantum mechanic thought (actually, I am currently more aligned to ???String Theory???). Given the prior complaint about the tedious nature of some of my posts I was compelled somewhat toward reasonable attempts at common consideration to be as brief as possible. Given the complexity of the topic there was much to consider but little pragmatic accommodation for complete dialog. Unfortunately, it is the nature of these kinds of discussion threads where we have a wildly diverse and heterogeneous level of educational exposure among participants that one must often risk being incomplete for the intellectual comfort of the uninitiated. My idea was to only present a short concept with appropriate linkage for further investigation to those interested parties without going into elaborate detail. This principal could be an entire discussion thread onto itself. So, unless you can speak with equal or greater understanding in this area I would suggest you learn to cope with whatever it is you find unsettling or start a new discussion thread so we can continue and not overly distract the others. But you still need to work on that attacking style???


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 22, 2003)

I'll speak as I wish. Save yourself the energy of trying to appear as if you're not "attacking" or are somehow above this debate as well. You've still yet to address any point I've made and have only resorted to whining and deflecting, and yet somehow seem to try and elevate yourself to some holier-than-thou position. 

Spare me. And in that spirit,

"Better than a thousand pointless words is one saying to the point" - Buddha

If you feel so inclined to write your convoluted diatribes, look into the concepts of cohesion and brevity. In other words, make a point and don't just waste space. It'd be much more impressive. 

At any rate.

If you wish to expound on Heisenberg's principle, the processes of entanglement and non-locality, Schrodinger's wave function, chromodynamics, or any other sub-discipline of quantum theory, I'm more than capable of discussing it on any level you choose. The same goes for string theory in any of its incarnations as well as M-theory.

Back to the original point. The uncertainty principle does not apply to macroscopic phenomena. Nor does the wave function. Quantum mechanics, as should be obviously implied by its name, relates only to sub-atomic phenomena. 

"Observer-dependent" is a misnomer. The wave function exists in the absence of interaction with other wave-particle systems. This cannot apply to the macro level as there is never a point in which an object is not interacting with another.

Using such theory as a basis for religious thought is bad, bad science, and in any event only makes the God of the Bible appear less and less likely. 

If you know as much as you claim about string theory, and a comparative knowledge of human psychology and biology, you'd likely understand that a God that has similar motives and drives to a human, even assuming that a creator exists, is highly, highly unlikely.

To say otherwise is to imply that the human mind is somehow patterned after a 10 (or more) dimensional structure of hopeless complexity. Again making for bad science.

I'm sure I'll be greeted by another paragraph devoid of content and full of big words that will somehow serve to side-step the valid points I made and make me look like a vicious attacker. But that's the nature of these debates. If you can't have your beliefs challenged, don't try to claim them as infallible on a public forum.


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 22, 2003)

They're just as sure as you are though, and can quote just as many passages from their holy books as you can.

So I ask again, what makes you more right?


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## Tboy (Jul 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> They're just as sure as you are though, and can quote just as many passages from their holy books as you can.
> 
> So I ask again, what makes you more right?



If you are trying to make the comparison of muslims to Christians.... There is none.  

mohamad was an illiterate, spastic, pedophile (yes there is proof of it) that worshiped the moon god allah.  A muslim believes it is perfectly fine to kill a non believer of there faith.


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## Tboy (Jul 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> They're just as sure as you are though, and can quote just as many passages from their holy books as you can.
> 
> So I ask again, what makes you more right?



Also even the quran quotes the bible and admits that Jesus walked the earth and rose from the grave.


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## Robboe (Jul 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> mohamad was an illiterate, spastic, pedophile (yes there is proof of it) that worshiped the moon god allah.  A muslim believes it is perfectly fine to kill a non believer of there faith.



Funniest post of the thread, this is.


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## Tboy (Jul 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Funniest post of the thread, this is.




Glad I could humor you.  But its true none the less.


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## Robboe (Jul 22, 2003)

As true and funny as it was, it doesn't cease your earlier post:



> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> Because I believe.



...From being retardedly spanktastical.


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## Tboy (Jul 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> As true and funny as it was, it doesn't cease your earlier post:
> 
> 
> ...




As long as you got the point of the post, is all that matters.


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> If you are trying to make the comparison of muslims to Christians.... There is none.
> 
> mohamad was an illiterate, spastic, pedophile (yes there is proof of it) that worshiped the moon god allah.  A muslim believes it is perfectly fine to kill a non believer of there faith.



Allah is the same God that Christians follow.

Now, what are you feelings about the Hindu religion? Or how about Buddhism for that matter?


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## Robboe (Jul 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> As long as you got the point of the post, is all that matters.



Yeah, but it's not making you look particularly intelligent.


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## Tboy (Jul 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> Allah is the same God that Christians follow.



 Not by a long shot.


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 22, 2003)

So let me get this straight. 

The Muslims are an off-shoot of Christianity, to the point of realizing Judaism and Christianity as valid religions. They even make mention of Christ as a prophet of God, though they don't consider him to be divine.

Its a generally accepted fact culturally and academically that Allah is the same being as the Judeo-Christian God.

So you dispute this because.....?


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## Tboy (Jul 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Yeah, but it's not making you look particularly intelligent.



What part of that post said that I cared what you thought of my intellegence?   I gave up on what people thought about me a long time ago.  What you think about me is not nearly as important as what I think about me.  Remember that and you'll live a happier life.


You are an interesting fellow (to put it nicely).  You try to talk with some intelligence, but yet you still continually try to put people down with nearly every post.  Your bitterness is probably due to your lack of something in your life....  I don't have a clue what it is, but I'm sure you know. 

And in closing. No matter what you have to say about me, I'll still sleep every bit as good as if you had said nothing.  I don't take offense to any of your ramblings.


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## Tboy (Jul 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> 
> 
> Its a generally accepted fact culturally and academically that Allah is the same being as the Judeo-Christian God.
> ...



Allah is considered a god by the muslims but it/he is a moon god.

God of the Bible is not.


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 22, 2003)

What are you basing this on, since as I already said its accepted in quite a number of ways that Allah = God of the Bible.


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## OceanDude (Jul 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> *I'll speak as I wish*. Save yourself the energy of trying to appear as if you're not "attacking" or are somehow above this debate as well. You've still yet to address any point I've made and have only resorted to whining and deflecting, and yet somehow seem to try and elevate yourself to some holier-than-thou position.



There you go again. At the first re-invitation to civil dialog you revert to a childish style of ???in your face??? ranting and defiance. I am quite nearly convinced now that you are incapable of getting to an adult-to-adult interaction pattern. You much prefer to assume a superior parent-to-child oration relationship but yet lack the discipline to long sustain it and rapidly degrade any dialog to a child-child interaction pattern ??? which I refuse to be a part of.  This is precisely your problem and why few here care to be bothered with even replying to you. You have a measure of intellect but you would be much more effective if you could rein in your ego. Even Lucifer stooped to slither into the skin of the snake to give the illusion that he was arguing to the benefit of man and not to his own glory when he tricked Adam & Eve. Is your purpose to instruct, to learn, to divide or to recruit? 

I also want to remind you from my initial post that I did not enjoin this thread to debate but to simply state my beliefs. I have my own personal reasons for this. At the risk of getting baited into the debate I???ll only respond to these few wormy things that are so blatantly fallacious that they scream to have their heads crushed and be put out of their misery.



> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> ...Back to the original point. The uncertainty principle does not apply to macroscopic phenomena. Nor does the wave function. Quantum mechanics, as should be obviously implied by its name, relates only to sub-atomic phenomena.
> 
> "Observer-dependent" is a misnomer. The wave function exists in the absence of interaction with other wave-particle systems. This cannot apply to the macro level as there is never a point in which an object is not interacting with another.
> ...



Disagree. I don???t even need to get into the science. ???Bad??? is a religious concept. This is a non sequitur since you would have us believe from prior posts there is no concept of ???Bad???. There is another non sequitur in your assertion (through symmetric equality) that science is not religion. This is multiply-transitive-circular on a religious concept that you used in the same discredited argument as well as on your choice to use the concept statistical ???improbability??? (AKA ???uncertainty???)  - which is the basis for *MY* prior statement. And since you seek to discredit this position I am not going to let you use that. In other words you just made my point in the use of the word ???improbable??? - thanks for agreeing with me. Was this intended as an instruction in the concepts of cohesion and brevity oh wise one? 



> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> ???If you know as much as you claim about string theory, and a comparative knowledge of human psychology and biology, you'd likely understand that a God that has similar motives and drives to a human, even assuming that a creator exists, is highly, highly unlikely.
> 
> To say otherwise is to imply that the human mind is somehow patterned after a 10 (or more) dimensional structure of hopeless complexity. Again making for bad science.



Disagree. This whole assertion is redundant and superfluous to the previous disallowed concept of ???probability??? ??? but with the addition of one more inconsistency. Since I get to claim all the 10 dimensions of that argument I have now run out of 10 fingers to count on ??? but we will soon get to the Babylonian standard of 12 if I can borrow the two horns on your head (now it???s fun.). You can???t redundantly argue in terms of probabilities without reinforcing my ???uncertainty??? concept. It???s remarkably similar to the notion of a ???benefit of the doubt??? in our justice systems isn???t it? But since you previously presented for consideration Gnosticism as a religion (yet another tired example of a god with petty human like emotions - i.e. jealousy) in much the same way the ancient Greeks & Romans did with their false religion (e.g. Zeus, the whole mount Olympus contingent and their human like emotions and antics) you are once again guilty of a non sequitur and inconsistent philosophical basis. You can???t on the one hand complain that it???s improbable that a god would have petty human emotions while simultaneously expecting anyone to accept your premises that Gnosticism is a viable consideration in your prior post. Sorry you just don???t have any credibility with me (on this topic).



> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> ...I'm sure I'll be greeted by another paragraph devoid of content and full of big words that will somehow serve to side-step the valid points I made and make me look like a vicious attacker. But that's the nature of these debates. If you can't have your beliefs challenged, don't try to claim them as infallible on a public forum.



I???m still looking for those valid points so I can make sure I don???t side step them by accident? Oops. I don???t see any valid points? Guess not - discussion over.


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 22, 2003)

_*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
*There you go again. At the first re-invitation to civil dialog you revert to a childish style of ???in your face??? ranting and defiance. I am quite nearly convinced now that you are incapable of getting to an adult-to-adult interaction pattern. You much prefer to assume a superior parent-to-child oration relationship but yet lack the discipline to long sustain it and rapidly degrade any dialog to a child-child interaction pattern ??? which I refuse to be a part of.  This is precisely your problem and why few here care to be bothered with even replying to you. You have a measure of intellect but you would be much more effective if you could rein in your ego. Even Lucifer stooped to slither into the skin of the snake to give the illusion that he was arguing to the benefit of man and not to his own glory when he tricked Adam & Eve. Is your purpose to instruct, to learn, to divide or to recruit? *

I'm really getting to the point of telling you to flat out shut up, because this circular reasoning bullshit is getting ridiculous. 

I feel bad for anybody that does try to actually talk seriously on a subject with you, because apparently its quite impossible as you'll simply throw three pages of meaningless drivel at them that supposedly tells them they're being childish.

*Disagree. I don???t even need to get into the science. ???Bad??? is a religious concept. This is a non sequitur since you would have us believe from prior posts there is no concept of ???Bad???. There is another non sequitur in your assertion (through symmetric equality) that science is not religion. This is multiply-transitive-circular on a religious concept that you used in the same discredited argument as well as on your choice to use the concept statistical ???improbability??? (AKA ???uncertainty???)  - which is the basis for MY prior statement. And since you seek to discredit this position I am not going to let you use that. In other words you just made my point in the use of the word ???improbable??? - thanks for agreeing with me. Was this intended as an instruction in the concepts of cohesion and brevity oh wise one? *

Don't argue semantics. Bad science is improper science, simple as that. I don't care how you want to try and dress it up with big words, it doesn't change the meaning of my point. Myopia gets you nowhere.

If you want to use science properly, then do so. Don't use unrelated points to prove your argument and I won't call you on them.

And YET AGAIN you don't act on any of the points, you merely try to side-step with meaningless, overly complex banter.

*Disagree. This whole assertion is redundant and superfluous to the previous disallowed concept of ???probability??? ??? but with the addition of one more inconsistency. Since I get to claim all the 10 dimensions of that argument I have now run out of 10 fingers to count on ??? but we will soon get to the Babylonian standard of 12 if I can borrow the two horns on your head (now it???s fun.). You can???t redundantly argue in terms of probabilities without reinforcing my ???uncertainty??? concept. It???s remarkably similar to the notion of a ???benefit of the doubt??? in our justice systems isn???t it? But since you previously presented for consideration Gnosticism as a religion (yet another tired example of a god with petty human like emotions - i.e. jealousy) in much the same way the ancient Greeks & Romans did with their false religion (e.g. Zeus, the whole mount Olympus contingent and their human like emotions and antics) you are once again guilty of a non sequitur and inconsistent philosophical basis. You can???t on the one hand complain that it???s improbable that a god would have petty human emotions while simultaneously expecting anyone to accept your premises that Gnosticism is a viable consideration in your prior post. Sorry you just don???t have any credibility with me (on this topic).*

Did this paragraph even say anything? I'm serious. If it did, there was no meaning readily apparent. 

All I could gather was that you don't think I'm being consistent in my viewpoints. I most assuredly am, since you've never once bothered to ask what exactly I believe.

My stance on the topic is simple. You mis-applied science to justify religion. I called you on it. You complained, saying you understood quite well. I proved otherwise. You still won't address my questions.

*I???m still looking for those valid points so I can make sure I don???t side step them by accident? Oops. I don???t see any valid points? Guess not - discussion over.  *

I just love the self-appointed arrogance demonstrated here. Refusing to acknowledge something doesn't mean its not there.

You've still yet to answer anything I've asked regarding Christian thought, only continuing to write your long, content-free passages that only lead the discussion further and further away from the topic.

I'm not the only one that has beef with Christian ideology. If this is the prevailing Christian mentality in the world, its no wonder that faith is slowly and steadily dying. If Christianity wants to survive, its going to have to evolve past this mentality.

Asking questions about your religion does not imply offense. It seems you and all of your contemporaries feel this way however; maybe its some holdover from the "do as your told and don't think" days. But that doesn't cut it any more. If you can't come up with reasonable, logically consistent answers, you're only going to lose more and more followers.

But maybe that's meant to be.


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## Tboy (Jul 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> What are you basing this on, since as I already said its accepted in quite a number of ways that Allah = God of the Bible.



I think you completly missed the boat when I said that allah and God are not the same.  even the muslims don't think so.

And to my knowledge muslim is not a shoot off of Christianity.  They simply drew the bible in to help add merit of some sort to the quran, which was written to suit mohamads fancy as he saw fit.  He also rewrote it serveral times to allow him to murder, pillage and take other mens wives.


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## Tboy (Jul 22, 2003)

Snake, TCD and others,

Here is what it boils down to...  I'm going to heaven when the time comes.  It's your choice to believe or not to believe in heaven or hell.  It is also your choice were you will spend eternity.  It would be extremely sad to know that someone tried to tell you about it and you closed mindedly turned them down and scorned their attemps at doing so.

I and others could sit here and try to explain the Bible and God to you guys till I'm blue in the face,  To what 
result??  You would still not believe.  

It's true I can't sit here and point God out in a crowd and say "see that's him.  Now do you believe?"  I also can't go back in history and find the people that wrote the Bible and show them to you. The Bible can stand on it's own by the prophecies or predictions that have happend, also many other history books can concur with the Bible to prove and support it's word.  Also many, many people can tell you what they "feel" when they pray to God.  

Have you every felt the wind?  Could you see it?  Could you touch it?  How did you know that it was there?  You saw the results of the wind, but never the wind it self.  The same is true with God.  I really can't explain it further than that.  I can show you scriptures in the Bible to help you understand it, but first you have to believe in the Bible. 

Before you knock me, try it for yourself... What have you got to loose? Six feet of dirt on your head when you die?    What have you got to gain?   To me the choice would be simple.


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 22, 2003)

I look at it this way.

I'm going to live my life as a good person, in touch with my inner light and the connection it brings me to all things in this world and above this world.

When I die, if I encounter the being you call God and he turns me away from his paradise, then I will be happy to go. Why? Because that being is corrupt and evil. 

If he would turn away good people over a matter of dogmatic triviality, then that's a being I want no part of. That's no better than any fascist propaganda dealt by a fallible human dictator. And its certainly not the characteristic of a being claiming to be the source of love and compassion.

So I will live my life as a good, caring person who fights for truth and for right. If God chooses to punish me for that, then so be it. But just bear in mind, that's no perfect being if that's the case.


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## Arnold (Jul 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> I look at it this way.
> 
> I'm going to live my life as a good person, in touch with my inner light and the connection it brings me to all things in this world and above this world.
> ...





Good Post!


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 22, 2003)

Edit: This was originally in response to Pepper's comment about my words being outrageous and blasphemous.

In your context, I'm sure it is.

But as I've been trying to state, I don't see the universe within those confines. 

I'm using the standard of logic, reason, and simple compassion for life to determine my standards of "good" and "evil," not what's laid out in the Bible. My own feelings of kinship towards other beings, towards nature, and towards the universe as a whole, determine my morality....not words from a 2000 year old dead culture.

And by those standards, God's standard to enter Heaven is what is outrageous to me.

If he tells a good person to go away over trivial matters, and yes that's what they are, then he is not the all-loving embodiment of compassion. 

That's the whole point of this argument. If God is allowing ANYONE to suffer because they don't "know" him, that's not divine judgment...that's a childish tantrum.

You see what I'm saying as outrageous and blasphemous, because you're only looking at the situation in the context of your beliefs. I'm looking at it, trying my best, from an objective standard.

That's where my thoughts on the issue are coming from...introspection and a compassionate heart. And they're telling me that something is massively wrong with the ideology of sacrifice and punishment.


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## Pepper (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> Edit: This was originally in response to Pepper's comment about my words being outrageous and blasphemous.
> 
> In your context, I'm sure it is.
> ...



Sorry, I deleted my post b/c I decided to just stay out of it. I did not realize you had read it. I will re-post it as close as I can remember it later today (when I have more time.)

I don't like doing that, but I thought I had done it quick enough. My bad.


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## Tboy (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> When I die, if I encounter the being you call God and he turns me away from his paradise, then I will be happy to go. Why? Because that being is corrupt and evil.



I don't know your age but I assume you have job.  I also assume that you have a boss.  Suppose your boss sets forth rules that say: Monday is white sock day.  In order to get into work, you must wear a pair of white socks.  There is no leeway to this rule.

Would that make him unfair or unjust? It's his company.  He can do with it as he sees fit right?   Everybody I know and have known all my life has had at least one pair of white socks, or the means of getting a pair.  So it should not be a problem for anyone to comply.  Correct?

The same could be said about have a chance to be with God.  Everybody has been given the chance/choice of complying with the rules set forth in the Bible for getting into heaven.  (crude point, but hopefully you get the jest of it)



> If he would turn away good people over a matter of dogmatic triviality, then that's a being I want no part of. That's no better than any fascist propaganda dealt by a fallible human dictator. And its certainly not the characteristic of a being claiming to be the source of love and compassion.



The Bible states that God is a fair and just God.  

When your mom and/or dad took you home from the hospital just after birth, why did they take only you?  Because you were the only one there that was their child.  Was that fair to all the other babies?  No, but you had met the criteria that they had set forth at the time of them leaving the hospital.  The Bible has also made it quite clear what it takes to be a child of God and to be part of the home coming of his children.



> So I will live my life as a good, caring person who fights for truth and for right.



Thats great.  You are already a step ahead of most people.



> If God chooses to punish me for that, then so be it.



For your sake, I hope he doesn't.


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## Arnold (Jul 23, 2003)

Hey Tboy, so what about the millions of poeple (such as Asians) in this world that have never even been exposed to christianity and it's bible? 
For example Buddhists, are they all going to hell?


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## Pepper (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Hey Tboy, so what about the millions of poeple (such as Asians) in this world that have never even been exposed to christianity and it's bible?
> For example Buddhists, are they all going to hell?



The Bible states that "general revelation" in nature is enough for believe in God. This is a difficult question, though, and the exact answer is one we may not know until "the day" comes. I do believe that viewing creation is enough to know there is a god, how that jives with trust in Christ, I don't know. I think this just underscores how important it is to get the Word out there, in every way possible.

I do know that churchs everywhere are sending missionaries to all parts of the world to spread the Gospel. We are commanded to in the Bible. A huge percentage of our church budget goes to funding missionaries.


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## Tboy (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Hey Tboy, so what about the millions of poeple (such as Asians) in this world that have never even been exposed to christianity and it's bible?
> For example Buddhists, are they all going to hell?



Actually, there are lots of missionaries all over the world that are preaching and teaching the word.

There have been tribes found, in really remote places that missionaries have found, worshiping God.  They could not explain how they knew to do so, just it was always done that way.

About the Buddhists, it's not my call.  Nothing I say could will it one way or the other.  I do know they are one of the most peacefull "religious" groups of people found anywhere.

This scripture 





> "Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.???
> (Matt 24:40-42)


Leads me to believe (my belief only) that 50% of the worlds population will go.  I don't think (my belief again) that litteraly every other person will go... but 50% over all.

(as a side note if anyone is interested in talking about this to someone locally, I could hook you up)


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## Arnold (Jul 23, 2003)

so, basically your answer is that christianity is riteous and if one does not believe in it they're wrong.


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## Tboy (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> The Bible states that "general revelation" in nature is enough for believe in God. This is a difficult question, though, and the exact answer is one we may not know until "the day" comes. I do believe that viewing creation is enough to know there is a god, how that jives with trust in Christ, I don't know. I think this just underscores how important it is to get the Word out there, in every way possible.
> 
> I do know that churchs everywhere are sending missionaries to all parts of the world to spread the Gospel. We are commanded to in the Bible. A huge percentage of our church budget goes to funding missionaries.




I posted nearly the same thing you did without even knowing it.


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## Tboy (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> so, basically your answer is that christianity is riteous and if one does not believe in it they're wrong.



Was that directed at pepper or me?


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## Arnold (Jul 23, 2003)

well, you're both posting the same "stuff" here, so I guess both of you.


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## Pepper (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> so, basically your answer is that christianity is riteous and if one does not believe in it they're wrong.



That is the harsh truth of the message, yes.


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## Arnold (Jul 23, 2003)

that is absurd.


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## kuso (Jul 23, 2003)

( soory BO.....I`m drunk again  )

Well, as someone thats married to a lady born and raise a buddist, I must say here, I want nothing to do with a god that is racist, or so petty as to only allow into heaven those who

Oh fuck it....this is too stupid to even bother with.


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## Pepper (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> that is absurd.



On what basis is it absurd? It is God's creation. He tells us the rules (which is what I essentially posted last night and deleted.)

Who are we to tell God what is right or wrong. He tells us. We are the creature, he is the Creator. We have no rights here.

The Bible plainly says that Christ is the only way to God.

That's the deal, we are in no position to negotiate.

Another thing I said last night to Snake is this: he said he lives a good life. Well, what is good? What he thinks is good may not be to another. Many evil men have done horrible acts thinking they were living a good life. There needs to be a standard.

Goodness comes from God. That is the standard. He tells us what is good. If you stand before him with "Well, I was good" He is going to say, "Depart from me, I never knew you." Goodness is the fruit of a believer, not a ticket to heaven (sorry for mixing metaphors)


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## Pepper (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> ( soory BO.....I`m drunk again  )
> 
> Well, as someone thats married to a lady born and raise a buddist, I must say here, I want nothing to do with a god that is racist, or so petty as to only allow into heaven those who
> ...



No race is excluded from God. None. Any one who truly believes is "in."

Talk about "stupid," that is the most absurd charge in this thread.

God is the ONLY ONE who is truly color blind.


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## Arnold (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> The Bible plainly says that Christ is the only way to God.



that is the belief of only one religeon, it's absurd for anyone religeon to think it is superior and above the rest.

see, where I am different is I see the bible as a book of metaphors that christains have literalized and perpetuated as real stories.

the bible is full of good stories with great morals behind them, but they're not meant to be taken literally.


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## kuso (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> No race is excluded from God. None. Any one who truly believes is "in."



IN what exactly? Faith? As long as it is YOUR god right?




> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> 
> Talk about "stupid," that is the most absurd charge in this thread.



Sorry, you may think so, but I think there p@revious few posts you and Tboy have made ( nothing personaly to either of you ) far out perform my absurdity here.......


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## Pepper (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> that is the belief of only one religeon, it's absurd for anyone religeon to think it is superior and above the rest.
> 
> see, where I am different is I see the bible as a book of metaphors that christains have literalized and perpetuated as real stories.
> ...



I think it is absurd to expect Chritians to say anything other than "only Christians will go to heaven."

I mean, Christianity is by definition "exclusive." It has to be. If you believe the Bible, you can't believe the Koran. If you believe the Bible, the Budists are WRONG. There is no wiggle room. Christ said "I am the way, the Truth and the Light. No one comes to the Father but by me." That pretty much eliminates an inclusive religion.

I do understand why people struggle with the Bible, but I do not understand why they expect those who believe it to accept other religions. If they do, they don't believe the Bible.


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## Pepper (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> IN what exactly? Faith? As long as it is YOUR god right?
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe you will translate that for me when you are not under the influence.


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## Tboy (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> well, you're both posting the same "stuff" here,



Just in the one post.

But to answer your question.  The short answer is yes.  The Bible is the basis for everything I have been saying.  You don't believe in the Bible so posting scriptures to back it up is near useless.

The Bible is also the basis for lots of other "religions" but they take what they like out of it and throw away the rest and then write their own "bible".   The Bible has no amendments to it.


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## Arnold (Jul 23, 2003)

it is just typical christian dogma: it's true becuase the bible says so.


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## Pepper (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> it is just typical christian dogma: it's true becuase the bible says so.



Well, I don't like the term dogma, but that is what I am saying.


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## Arnold (Jul 23, 2003)

dogma:

1: a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof.


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## kuso (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> IN what exactly? Faith? As long as it is YOUR god right?
> 
> 
> ...


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## Pepper (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> dogma:
> 
> 1: a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof.



Wouldn't any religious doctrine fall into the definition? I mean, how can I prove it? I look at life and the rest of creation and that is proof, but it is not to you. If I could "prove" this to you, it would no longer be a matter of faith.


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## DaMayor (Jul 23, 2003)

_*Reluctantly Replies*_

I think everyone here has given in to the very thing that negates the intentions or objectives of _all religions._ 
To base one's life, or belief system(s), on the literal interpretation of _any_ single religious, or non-religious, philosophy is ludicrous. Does this mean that I am a "non-believer"? No.
I think what is important, as I stated in a round-about way earlier,  is that each individual ebrace the common "good" of all religions and apply the average to his or her life. 
We can beat each other's beliefs to a pulp, and in doing so continue to miss the big picture. 
I think we can all agree that none of us has the unequivocal answer.....Hence the term _faith._


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## Tboy (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> dogma:
> 
> 1: a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof.



So why do you bother talking about it, if every thing I say you refuse to believe?


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## Pepper (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> _*Reluctantly Replies*_
> 
> I think everyone here has given in to the very thing that negates the intentions or objectives of _all religions._
> ...



Well, I can't agree with that. Any of it.

I am not really here to try to convince anyone, I am really just trying to explain where I am coming from. I think that by doing what you stated, you believe in nothing. There is no true foundation for your belief. If you believe the Bible, you believe you have the unEquivocal answer.

I gotta work guys, I'll check back in later.

Again, my point is not to say "you guys are all wrong" but to say, this is what I believe and this is why. Hope I don't offend.


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## Tboy (Jul 23, 2003)

Here are a few things that I have found for actuall proof of the Bible




> The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again-ref Isa 66:8; Mic 5:3.  Prophecy fulfilled.  This happened exactly as predicted on May 14, 1948.
> Note: Israel was destroyed in approximately 721 B.C. and Judah about 135 years later.  For the last 2500 years, approximately fourteen different peoples have possessed the land of Israel.  Nevertheless, the Bible showed that the day would come when the nation of Israel would be reborn.





> Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8.  Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948.
> Note: On Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the U.N. approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine.  On the morning of May 14, 1948 (the last day of the British mandate), a meeting of the People???s Council took place in Israel to decide on the name of the state and to finalize the declaration.  At exactly 4pm, the proclamation ceremony began at the Tel Aviv museum.  The 979 Hebrew words of the Scroll of Independence were read.  All stood, and the scroll was adopted.  The notorious White Paper, issued by the British in 1930 restricting Jewish immigration, was declared null and void.  Members of the People???s Council signed the proclamation.  David Ben-Gurion rapped his gavel, declaring, ???The State of Israel is established.  This meeting is ended.???  Israel was brought forth as a nation in one day, at once.  It happened exactly as predicted.  At midnight, the British soldiers and high commissioner would leave.  President Truman was swift in announcing U.S. recognition of Israel.  The following morning, on May 15, Israel was under armed attack by the Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians, and Iraqis.





> Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) ???out of the nations.???-Ezek 38:8.  Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948.
> Note: As previously stated, on Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the ???United Nations??? approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine.  This prophecy was perfectly fulfilled.  Consider, for centuries the land of Israel had been occupied by many nations.  Israel was ???brought forth out of the nations??????the children of Israel from many nations were returning to their ancient homeland.





> Israel must regain the city of Jerusalem-Joel 2:32; Isa 28:14; Ezek 22:19.  This happened just as predicted in 1967





> There would be weapons that could destroy the world-Mk 13:20; Rev 6:8; Rev 9:18; Zech 14:8,12





> There would be an increase in earthquakes-Mt 24:2,3,7; Mk 13:8; Lk 21:11.  This prophecy is correct.     Note: One might think as the earth settled over a period of time that earthquakes would decrease like ripples in the water.  Yet the Bible indicates the opposite is true. In this last generation, research from the U.S. Geological Survey, National Earthquake Information Center reveals that major earthquakes of a magnitude of 6.0 or higher have remained relatively constant during this century.  However, the total number of earthquakes in recent years appear to be rising.  For example, it was reported that in 1986, the total number of earthquakes was 12,718.  In l990, it was 16,612.  In 1994, it was 19,371.  This will culminate during the Battle of Armageddon, AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.  At that time, there will be an earthquake that will shake the world.  The cities of the nations will fall.  Every island will flee away





> In the latter days when Israel was once again a nation, there would be a great military power to the extreme north of Israel in the land of Magog (which is modern-day Russia)-Ezek 38:2-4,8,15,16





> There would be a nation to the far east of Israel, to the end of the earth.  This nation would have an army of 200 million.  This is absolutely astounding.  It is estimated by some that the population of the entire world at the time of Christ was only about 200,000,000.  How then could the Bible have ever told the location of a nation and given such a figure as the size of its army nearly 2000 years ago?  China has boasted that they could field an army of this exact figure





> The currency in Israel at the time of the end would be the shekel.  The currency had been the Israeli pound until June 1980, when it was changed to the shekel


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## kuso (Jul 23, 2003)

In hindsight, Nostradamas was quite accurate too.


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## Pepper (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> In hindsight, Nostradamas was quite accurate too.



Yeah, this is why I don't try to "prove" the Bible. It is just to hard to do with people who don't have the same faith. I think what T-boy is trying to do is admirable, but not really possible.


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## Tboy (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> In hindsight, Nostradamas was quite accurate too.



Yep.  His doomsday one was dead on.


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## kuso (Jul 23, 2003)

You obviously missed the word hindsight.......rather important.


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## OceanDude (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> dogma:
> 
> 1: a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof.



Prince, I remind you that same "dogma" that you find troublesome in pepper???s and tboy???s post exists in the Declaration of Independence. The very same document that lead to the Freedoms that you currently enjoy and even make this discussion possible. Given that, it is not consistent to present dogma in a negative connotation while enjoying the liberties it provides.

_???We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their *Creator* with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.???_



> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> I think it is absurd to expect Chritians to say anything other than "only Christians will go to heaven."



Pepper, actually I think that the Christ would not be pleased with the use of his name in a context that invites conflict among men and religions. His purpose was to fulfill scriptures, simplify law (based on 2 principals: Love of God and Love of Neighbor) and proclaim an opportunity for salvation and redemption with God. This is one of my reasons why I choose to only observe this discussion rather than get drawn into divisive arguments. Ponder some old words of wisdom: Cast not your pearls to the swine or argue not with a fool least you be confused for one.


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## Tboy (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> You obviously missed the word hindsight.......rather important.



I got the word, I guess I missed the point of the post.  

Is that the beer or you talking?  You are making noticebly less sense than you usaully do.


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## kuso (Jul 23, 2003)

Don`t drink beer. And there has been but one spelling error in my last three posts.


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## Tboy (Jul 23, 2003)

Correct spelling does nothing for a post if the point is so vague it can't be found.


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## kuso (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> if the point is so vague it can't be found.



Ironic no?


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## OceanDude (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> _*Reluctantly Replies*_
> 
> I think everyone here has given in to the very thing that negates the intentions or objectives of _all religions._
> ...



Interesting notion about adapting the ???average good???. But given the extreme diversity in current religious choices don???t you think this would tend to blur things? Wouldn???t such a system ???on the average??? lead to ???anything goes??? and eventually fall into a state of anarchy? Who would get to pick the ???common good??? and who would enforce it? I might trust DaMayor but I sure would not trust Osma Bin Laden. There are other problems as well. Would not this system wash out motivations for *individual* excellence by removing the opportunity for failure? I am inclined to think that for humanity to evolve there must be something that compels growth far from the average. To find the ???crem de la crem among us requires a motivation for individual excellence and a path with resistance. True ???Good??? if that is what we aspire to must absolutely exceed the averages through superior and profound contrast with its opposite; even greater than the contrast between light and dark. I suspect that the DaMayor idea may certainly yield a great abundance of choices (kind of like a super fast food ???good??? smorgasbord) but lacking s cohesive framework I suspect that quality of life would be much less that it might otherwise be. 

Let???s look at the DaMayor idea in another way. Because the is really presenting a compromise to keep the peace (not a bad idea but I think functionally impractical). Recall that old silly McCartney & Stevie Wonder song ???Ebony & Ivory???? The verse ??????ebony and ivory living side by side in perfect harmony??? brings to mind the imagery of a piano???s major (white) and minor keys (black) and the possibility that good and evil (originally I think race was the metaphor ??? but I am borrowing the concept) peacefully can coexist. In the absence of a skilled pianist I personally find this metaphor to be sophomoric and naïve ??? especially given that everyone has their own particular tastes in music. Some will tend toward complex and rich chord structures, some will favor single note constructs in major keys only (???twinkle twinkle little star comes to mind???), some will like jazz and still others would want to just shoot the piano player for not playing their kind of music. I think I have convinced myself that the DaMayor idea was a noble attempt but it strikes a discordant note without someone composing the songs and the agendas.


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## Robboe (Jul 23, 2003)

I feel like Emporer Nero here - being responsible for the Christians having their asses handed to them.


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## Robboe (Jul 23, 2003)

My point above is where the similarities end.


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## OceanDude (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I feel like Emporer Nero here - being responsible for the Christians having their asses handed to them.



Shucks TCD, you do have a sense of humor after all. By chance are you related to Bagdad Bob  (AKA the old Iraqi Information Minister Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf)? For some reason I could not help but think of him when I heard you compare yourself to ???Emporer [sp ] Nero???. I thought it would be a cute illustration to include a few of his more famous quotes and substitute ???Christian??? in it???s place as if you spoke the words.

There are no Christian infidels in Baghdad. Never!"
"My feelings - as usual - we will slaughter them all (Christians)"
"Our initial assessment is that they (Christian) will all die"
"I blame Al-Jazeera - they are marketing for the Christians!"
"God will roast their [Christian] stomachs in hell at the hands of Iraqis."
"They're coming to surrender or be burned in their [Christian] tanks."
"No I am not scared, and neither should you be!"
"Be assured. Baghdad is safe, protected"
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!"
"We are not afraid of the Christians. Allah has condemned them.  They are stupid.  They are stupid" (dramatic pause) "and they are condemned." 
"The Christians, they always depend on a method what I call ... stupid, silly. All I ask is check yourself. Do not in fact repeat their lies."
"I can say, and I am responsible for what I am saying, that they have 
started to commit suicide under the walls of Baghdad. We 
will encourage them to commit more suicides quickly."
"I can assure you that those villains will recognize, will discover in appropriate time in the future how stupid they are and how they are pretending things which have never taken place."


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## april (Jul 23, 2003)

I dont come here often but this is my two cents. So is that what you want to feel like some kind of god for getting the christians knocked on. Well they are entitled to their view just as much as you are entitled to yours and in the end I and I hope any christian here, really dont care what you have to say about christians  Because I know in my heart that God is real, I  have felt his presence, I have witnessed his miracles in my live. And once you have felt these two things it doesn't matter what anyone has to say about it because God is greater than any of yall.  I hope and pray in my heart that yall find God because I wouldn't want to be there on Judgement day and that be the first time I felt the Glory of God in my life and then have to leave that Glory because he casts me away because I didn't know him or accept him when I had the chance too. You see, yall all say yall dont want to be a part of a God like that but the fact is yall do not know what yall are missing because if yall did know yall would not be denying God.


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## Robboe (Jul 23, 2003)

Power to you, April.

Bless your cotton socks.


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## OceanDude (Jul 23, 2003)

Thanks for sharing that April. First time I have seen a fellow Southerner use the "yall" inflection in written form. It's cute.


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## Robboe (Jul 23, 2003)

I thought she was taking the piss the amount of times she used the phrase.


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## naturaltan (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I thought she was taking the piss the amount of times she used the phrase.


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## DaMayor (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I feel like Emporer Nero here - being responsible for the Christians having their asses handed to them.



Um, that's _Eperor_ your sovereign-ness.


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by april *_
> I dont come here often but this is my two cents. So is that what you want to feel like some kind of god for getting the christians knocked on. Well they are entitled to their view just as much as you are entitled to yours and in the end I and I hope any christian here, really dont care what you have to say about christians  Because I know in my heart that God is real, I  have felt his presence, I have witnessed his miracles in my live. And once you have felt these two things it doesn't matter what anyone has to say about it because God is greater than any of yall.  I hope and pray in my heart that yall find God because I wouldn't want to be there on Judgement day and that be the first time I felt the Glory of God in my life and then have to leave that Glory because he casts me away because I didn't know him or accept him when I had the chance too. You see, yall all say yall dont want to be a part of a God like that but the fact is yall do not know what yall are missing because if yall did know yall would not be denying God.



Deny God? Not by a long shot.

This is what I've been repeatedly trying to hammer into this thread. 

I absolutely believe in a greater power in this universe. I cannot say that enough times.

My beef is with the narrow, exclusivist manner in which the Christians so vehemently claim that they hold the one and only key, and everybody else is wrong.

My whole point here is that God, assuming he meets the standards of love and perfection attributed to him, would not and COULD not have made some of the claims that are written in the Bible. 

Pepper asks how I can be sure of what's good or not. I've already explained that. Its empathy, compassion, and logical, rational thought. I do not want to be harmed, so I do not harm. I do not want to be stolen from, therefore I do not steal. Etc. It doesn't require any divine intervention or law; these things are evident in the human heart.

That's the whole issue I have. Its a matter of looking at the words instead of the meaning. Christ's message was of love, peace, and tolerance. How many times have Christians murdered, pillaged, and forged hate in his name? The message of compassion is lost in the words.

By that system, if a Buddhist monk that has never harmed another living being in his life, has devoted himself to God (they don't by name, but its the same concept), was informed of the Bible and Christianity and rejected it, he would burn in hell. Whereas another man could live a life of violence and hate, then accept Christ and be rewarded.

Frankly, that's insane. That's where I get off calling the God of the Bible a sadist and a liar. I can sit here from that position of fallible human right and wrong and make that distinction. Its wrong. So if the infinite almighty can't have the same respect for life and for good deeds, then that being is not the infinite almighty. I just can't accept that a being of that level would be so disrespectful towards life based on arbitrary actions and words.

Christ was a role model. Live your life as Christ and you are divine. No less, no more, than Christ himself was. That's the message of the Christ and the way to salvation. 

It doesn't matter if you come to that state by Christ's words, or through Buddhist meditation, or the way of the Tao. If you become like Christ, through whatever path you may choose, whether you accept Christ by name or not, then you are in the favor of the higher power.

My personal views stem more into the mystic aspects of the religions, to the concept of gnosis and God being the internal force of life, the underlying quintessence of existence itself. But that's another topic. I just hope I've managed to convey my thought processes.


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## Robboe (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> Um, that's _Eperor_ your sovereign-ness.



Don't you mean "Emperor"?

Ironic, eh?


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## DaMayor (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> Interesting notion about adapting the ???average good???. But given the extreme diversity in current religious choices don???t you think this would tend to blur things? Wouldn???t such a system ???on the average??? lead to ???anything goes??? and eventually fall into a state of anarchy? Who would get to pick the ???common good??? and who would enforce it? I might trust DaMayor but I sure would not trust Osma Bin Laden. There are other problems as well. Would not this system wash out motivations for *individual* excellence by removing the opportunity for failure? I am inclined to think that for humanity to evolve there must be something that compels growth far from the average. To find the ???crem de la crem among us requires a motivation for individual excellence and a path with resistance. True ???Good??? if that is what we aspire to must absolutely exceed the averages through superior and profound contrast with its opposite; even greater than the contrast between light and dark. I suspect that the DaMayor idea may certainly yield a great abundance of choices (kind of like a super fast food ???good??? smorgasbord) but lacking s cohesive framework I suspect that quality of life would be much less that it might otherwise be.
> 
> Let???s look at the DaMayor idea in another way. Because the is really presenting a compromise to keep the peace (not a bad idea but I think functionally impractical). Recall that old silly McCartney & Stevie Wonder song ???Ebony & Ivory???? The verse ??????ebony and ivory living side by side in perfect harmony??? brings to mind the imagery of a piano???s major (white) and minor keys (black) and the possibility that good and evil (originally I think race was the metaphor ??? but I am borrowing the concept) peacefully can coexist. In the absence of a skilled pianist I personally find this metaphor to be sophomoric and naïve ??? especially given that everyone has their own particular tastes in music. Some will tend toward complex and rich chord structures, some will favor single note constructs in major keys only (???twinkle twinkle little star comes to mind???), some will like jazz and still others would want to just shoot the piano player for not playing their kind of music. I think I have convinced myself that the DaMayor idea was a noble attempt but it strikes a discordant note without someone composing the songs and the agendas.




Oh boy.

Ebony and Ivory? Sweet. But not what I had in mind.

My point is this....what is wrong with having a belief system in place, (e.g. Christianity, Buddism, Roman Robboe-ism, etc.) and yet the flexibility to allow one's self to accept, understand, or otherwise embrace the similarities shared or found within the beliefs of others? 
I was brought up in a Christian home. I attend a Christian church. I believe in God. HOWEVER, I do not turn up my nose at those who are of other "faiths" because we all share common beliefs to a certain extent. Nor do I attack those who chose not to believe....this is their choice. All I can do is share my beliefs with others, and let it ride. Does this mean that I am in some way blaspheming God? No. Does it mean that I have failed? No. It simply means that I think outside of the box, that, as to be expected of a mere mortal, I question things...I look for answers.


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## DaMayor (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Don't you mean "Emperor"?
> 
> Ironic, eh?



Busted......I'm losing it.
(we need a smilie depicting a foot inserted in mouth)


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## Robboe (Jul 23, 2003)

Submit your passport photo. That'll work perfectly.


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## Pepper (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> being responsible for the Christians having their asses handed to them.



Whatever.


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## Pepper (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> 
> Pepper, actually I think that the Christ would not be pleased with the use of his name in a context that invites conflict among men and religions.



I really don't understand this. My point was that Christianity by definition excludes other religions. Either you trust in Christ or you do not. I don't see where I am causing conflict ...is this not what we tell people on the missions field?

My point was that Christ is the only way to salvation. A point that is VERY BIBLICAL and one that Christ made himself. 

You have me scratching my head on this on. If I were saying so in an antongonistic or harsh tone, maybe you'd have a point. However, I was merely pointing out the Gospel.

My comment to Kuso would be one that I Christ would not approve of.

As for co-existing. I agree that we should be tolerant and civil. We should not be screaming "you are going to Hell" or otherwise inserting uninvited comments about the harsher elements of our beliefs. However, in this context, we are being ASKED for our beliefs. In part to be ridiculed, I understand that, but asked nonetheless.


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## Nigeepoo (Jul 23, 2003)

This thread is fascinating. I remember, when I was about 5 years old, standing at assembly (prayers) in infant school and everyone was singing "All things bright and beautiful, all creatures great and small, all things wise and wonderful, the lord God made them all" and thinking "Oh no, they're not! This is nonsense". I've been a devout atheist ever since, though I've mellowed in my old age and I'm now just agnostic, with a bias towards atheism.

The point I'm trying to make (other than I'm a stubborn bugger) is that when we're born, we have no beliefs. As we grow, we are brain-washed - sorry, indoctrinated to believe in whatever our parents were brainwashed - sorry, indoctrinated to believe in  and so on for their parents before them.

Religion is thus self-perpetuating, unless the child is rebellious/plain ornery (is that the right expression?), like me.

Hey-ho. Looks like I'm going to go "down there" if you Christians have got it right.  

Then again...................

Hey, TCD. When are you starting a politics thread?


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## Arnold (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by april *_
> I dont come here often but this is my two cents. So is that what you want to feel like some kind of god for getting the christians knocked on. Well they are entitled to their view just as much as you are entitled to yours and in the end I and I hope any christian here, really dont care what you have to say about christians  Because I know in my heart that God is real, I  have felt his presence, I have witnessed his miracles in my live. And once you have felt these two things it doesn't matter what anyone has to say about it because God is greater than any of yall.  I hope and pray in my heart that yall find God because I wouldn't want to be there on Judgement day and that be the first time I felt the Glory of God in my life and then have to leave that Glory because he casts me away because I didn't know him or accept him when I had the chance too. You see, yall all say yall dont want to be a part of a God like that but the fact is yall do not know what yall are missing because if yall did know yall would not be denying God.



Maybe you need to come here more often because you missed the whole damn point we're making!

Who ever said that I, or we, do not believe in god or a higher power? I know that I never said that. My problem is with religeons, they're corrupt, period (not all but most, especially christianity - it's the worst of all).

As Jesse Ventura said: "Religeons are for weak minded people that find power in numbers." 

I believe I quoted him correctly, if not I apologize, but that is the jist of what he said and it's dead on. I do not need to go to a million dollar church, or my name for them is "tax shelter", and donate 10% of my income to have a faith. And I am 100% positive if there is a god he would agree that his is not necessary. Nor do I need to read a book that not only was written by "man", but has been translated so many fricking times any meaning it once had has been lost thru mistranslations.

Go back and re-read some of Snake's posts, he "spoke" quite elequoently in this thread and I could not say it better than he did, he was right on with what he posted here!


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## Arnold (Jul 23, 2003)

Oh one more thing...my family are ALL die hard christians so you can imagine the head butting and heated arguments I been in with them..anyway, when my 10 year old son goes to the grandparents house they take him to church on Sunday. The reason that I allow this is because even he thinks it's a joke, I asked if he believes in the bible and the things he learns in church and he said no it's stupid. I said why do you say that? He said it's no different in believing in Santa Clause it's just a story that is not true. I said how do you know it's not true, he goes on to explain how reduculous these stories are and explains things like evolution and science how they make sense have been proven, versus the stories such as Genesis, etc.

You're probably thinking that I pounded this into his head, but I did not. My wife and I of course told him why we do not go to church and why we do not follow this religeon, but we never told him how he should believe. He has been going to church with them for several years now, probably only a few times a year when he stays with them. And this is the opinion he formed on his own.

You cannot imagine the delight I felt when he answered my questions this way. Why? Because it tells me that I am raising a rational, logical thinking kid. A child that understands science, and get rationalize how silly it would be that such stories we're actually literal.

Secondly, I want to point out that he is a great kid. He has a huge heart, very well behaved, would never even think of hurting another person, shares everything he has with his friends, etc., etc., etc. WE have always received compliment after compliment from ANYONE that he has stayed with, whether it be family, friends, the nieghbors. They always say how sweet he and helpful he is, how well behaved, mannerly, and respectful he is, and I am NOT exaggerating. I pride myself on how we have raised him, the discipline and respect that we have instilled. When people say things like "you're so lucky to have such a sweet child", I say thanks and smile, but I know that there is no luck involved, he is this way because we raised him to be this way.

My point is he is growing up to be a good, moral person with high ethics. He cares about others, has no desire to hurt others or do anything wrong. Sometimes to the point that it's almost unbelievable. For instance he absolutely refuses to say a curse word. He will be telling us a story and if it comes up in his story that so and so said bitch he will say "then she said the B word!" (remember he is in the 6th grade, so it's not like he's a little toddler). And we will say what is the B word Jon? Oh, I can't say that, it's a bad word he tells us. Then we say, no it's okay just say it we want to know. He refuses! We tell him "you're not gonna get in trouble, we're telling you this one time it's okay to say it!" Again, he refuses.

My point here is that religeon is NOT necessary to be be a good person with high moral judgment and standards. And if there is a god that will judge us that is how we will be judged, not by the religeon we followed.

I feel that christians are completely lost, they have lost the meaning of faith and everything that religeon SHOULD be about. They're too wrapped up in their bibles literalizing every word that they actually miss the most important part, which is the morals behind the stories...it is truley sad.


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 23, 2003)

Well said.


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## OceanDude (Jul 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> I really don't understand this. My point was that Christianity by definition excludes other religions. Either you trust in Christ or you do not. I don't see where I am causing conflict ...is this not what we tell people on the missions field?
> 
> My point was that Christ is the only way to salvation. A point that is VERY BIBLICAL and one that Christ made himself.
> ...



Ok I know where you are coming from but I just wanted to put up the ???red flag??? to get your attention so that you would give some second thought to this perspective before going forward too far. In this context you might want to consider the scripture that says ??????those that are not against us are for us??? and consider if that gives any additional room for more universal inclusion. Also consider the passage ???I will write my laws onto their hearts???. Finally also consider the spirit of what happened in the general expansion of God???s promise to the Jews of a Messiah and how Christ expanded the mission to all nations when he invited the Gentiles (who were scorned by the Jews as pagans and improper worshipers) to follow him. Clearly an accounting of the later scriptures indicates that God did not intend to exclude any peoples from the opportunity of redemption and had a plan to rescue them from the consequence of their forbearer???s original disobedience (which he warned would result in death and suffering). 

General Comment:
???Genesis??? is common to a number of religions (as is the 10 commandments which had very remarkably similar elements to various other common belief systems that pre-dated Moses ??? a fact which may be shocking to many). What is interesting to note is that no one seems to focus on the fact that in the Genesis accounting God explicitly warned man that if he elected to exercise his own free will in only one single area among many others (i.e. the forbidden fruit) that he would die (perhaps the only spiritual way to gain knowledge of both good and evil was to suffer evil and then be resuced from it through redemption [good]). This scripture presents a very pure and simple message ??????you have a free will, you have the perfect knowledge of the single thing that can harm you, do not irresponsibly use your free will in ways that will hurt you???. According to this accounting, when man did not heed the warning (forget motivation and cause for the moment) and broke the hospitality and companionship by using his free will to choose to steal the one thing that could hurt him and set into motion the consequences of his own actions. Regardless of religious belief or lack therein this is still a valid message since its axiomatic that all choices have rewards and consequences in all things in life. The implication here though is that consequences of our actions and choices extend beyond the limits of this temporal existence - even pan-generational. And here I believe it is is very important to understand what these scriptures are telling us about current circumstances of death and suffering -  *God did not do this. Man did this of his own free will* ??? albeit deceived into it through his weakness in misusing his greatest gift  - free will. All that are inclined to or desire to believe this should be really pissed off at Adam & Eve for getting tossed from paradise and causing future generations to lose their original birthright in paradise rather than ranting and rebelling against a God most don???t even know too well (due to being segregated and alienated by the choices of their forbearers). The encouraging news in Christ???s message that should be appealing to everyone (it is to me) is that even after all this God still desires to present a final opportunity to get us back home but it must be through the exercise of deliberate free will again. Basically - choose his way over your own for whatever reasons he has ??? it may have to do with consistency in supernatural principals and law or other justice principals that are too sublime for us. There is consistency and symmetry in the message that is quite liberating as well as sobering; since failing to participate in this last act of salvation will leave nothing but the consequence of another bad choice (if fear motivated) or an infinitely good alternative (if love and faith motivated) ??? and once again God has told us what both are.


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 23, 2003)

Your points about other contemporary religions being very similar should be quite illuminating. The idea of immaculate conception, virgin birth, and divine resurrection were pretty common themes from that area of the world. Everything from the early Egyptian beliefs (look into the Osiris myth) to Zoroastrianism to the cult of Mithra all show the same themes. Christianity just happened to be poised at the proper time and place to be introduced to the Roman Empire and spread to the West. Had that not happened, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.



> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> *And here I believe it is is very important to understand what these scriptures are telling us about current circumstances of death and suffering -  God did not do this. Man did this of his own free will*
> 
> Who created Man?
> ...


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## Arnold (Jul 23, 2003)

Ocean Dude, the thing that baffles me here is you're an educated person, an engineer, obviously intelligent, you must be extremely logical to be in the engineering field seeing that it requires extreme mathematics, yet you're completely brainwashed with christianity....it's absolutely dumbfounding. 

to each his own I guess.


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## Tboy (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> My point is he is growing up to be a good, moral person with high ethics. He cares about others, has no desire to hurt others or do anything wrong. Sometimes to the point that it's almost unbelievable. For instance he absolutely refuses to say a curse word. He will be telling us a story and if it comes up in his story that so and so said bitch he will say "then she said the B word!" (remember he is in the 6th grade, so it's not like he's a little toddler). And we will say what is the B word Jon? Oh, I can't say that, it's a bad word he tells us. Then we say, no it's okay just say it we want to know. He refuses! We tell him "you're not gonna get in trouble, we're telling you this one time it's okay to say it!" Again, he refuses.




So you insist that your son curse?  Against his better judgement?



> I feel that christians are completely lost, they have lost the meaning of faith and everything that religeon SHOULD be about. They're too wrapped up in their bibles literalizing every word that they actually miss the most important part, which is the morals behind the stories...it is truley sad.



There are morals, parables and truths to be taken from the Bible.  Each one should be treated as such.

*wacks the dead horse again*

A question for you Prince:

Do you believe the Bible?


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## Tboy (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> How many times have Christians murdered, pillaged, and forged hate in his name? The message of compassion is lost in the words.



Any inocent killing is murder and that is condemed in the bible.




> It doesn't matter if you come to that state by Christ's words, or through Buddhist meditation, or the way of the Tao. If you become like Christ, through whatever path you may choose, whether you accept Christ by name or not, then you are in the favor of the higher power.



If you believe the bible, there is but one way to become Christ like.


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## ZECH (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Snake_Eyes *_
> 
> 
> Christ was a role model. Live your life as Christ and you are divine. No less, no more, than Christ himself was. That's the message of the Christ and the way to salvation.


Wrong.....................we cannot live as Christ no matter how hard we try. Christ was perfect, without sin! We were born in sin! So we were screwed when we entered this world. The only way to salvation is to ask forgiveness and accept Christ. That's the reason Christ died on the cross, to accept our sins. He could have very easily said it's not worth it. But then we would be doomed for hell with no way out.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2003)

Wow, I got into this discussion a little bit late, plus it just took me two hours to read the entire thread.  Some good discussion going on, though.  Thought I'd add my two cents:  

My personal belief (which was formed after much confusion while studying different religions in university) is that religion is all about faith.  Personally, I think Descartes said it best when he stated that everything that exists in the world today has a cause.  You are here because your parents decided to have sex with each other.  Our planet is here because some swirling gases came together in the proper configuration just the right distance from the sun billions of years ago.  However, what it all comes down to (at least for me) is that SOMETHING had to begin the whole process and start the ball rolling.  I'm not talking about the Big Bang, I'm talking about what caused the Big Bang to happen.  

This ultimate cause is what we all call God.  Whether you think it is sitting in heaven looking down (Christian), or all around us, or inside every tree, rock and bush (Wicca) it comes down to the same thing.  This is why I personally do not follow any one religion, because they are all trying to say the same thing.  

Arguments abound over which one is right, and the simple fact is that no one religion is more right than any other.  Each person chooses to have faith in what they choose, and the point of having faith in something IMO is to provide guidance and support for oneself and others.  Whether this is from chanting like a Bhuddist monk or speaking in tongues like a Pentecosal parishoner it comes down to the same thing as well.  

Many religions today are run like big business and have nothing to do with faith.  Religions is the past have been hypocritical and evil forces.  Some of the biggest and most violent wars in human history were holy wars because one side had faith in something that another did not, and therefore they were evil.  What it always comes down to for me is a problem with people saying that their one religion is right.  It's not.  Get over it.  Neither is mine.  However, if I have faith in something then that is what gets me by and helps me live a life where I help my fellow man then what's wrong about that?  The Bible, Koran, Torah all essentially say the same thing in different words.  They provide a framework to give people something to have faith in.  If you live a good life because you believe that it is what God wants you to do, then that's fine.  Others believe that God wants them to commit suicide.  Who's right?  Nobody.  Who's wrong?  Nobody.  

Why can't we as human beings just tolerate what each other believe and not judge each other based on that?  Isn't it enough that we all try to be good people and help each other?  Why do things like colour, race, and especially religion have to change our views on each other?  My two cents is that there is no right or wrong.  Do your best to be a good person and whatever you believe is what you believe.  I'm not wrong and neither are you.


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## OceanDude (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ponyboy *_
> My two cents is that there is no right or wrong.  Do your best to be a good person and whatever you believe is what you believe.  I'm not wrong and neither are you.



This is inconsistent. You can't simultaniously advocate a philosophy rooted in a greater "good" with no concept of right or wrong. Absent a standard there is no good or bad. Hitler thought it perfectly good to kill the Jews to purify the race of his nation. Would you have us believe he was right and did not wrong? I am concerned that such a philosophy begs for anarchy and violent disorder.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2003)

But part of my point is, who defines the standard?  

Using your example, what Hitler did was a horrible thing to everyone except for him and those who chose to have faith in him.  In terms of his own faith, he was doing the right thing.  People's perceptions are their own reality.  It is up to us to choose what we feel is right or wrong and live our lives based on that.  

To us, what the Taliban do to their women is wrong.  To them, what we do is wrong.  Who's right?  We both are because it is what we believe.  That's what I was trying to say.  It sucks, but it's true...because there are many really screwed up people in the world, at least according to my beliefs about what is right and wrong.  But it is not my place to disagree with what someone else believes in.


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## Arnold (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> So you insist that your son curse?  Against his better judgement?


Are you serious? Why do you think he does not curse, just by chance? Children are a direct result of their upbringing and their environment. 

When he tells us a story, or things that happen in his life I want to know the details, if his friends are using curse words I want to hear what they are, and I want him to understand that he should not use those words, that is why I pressure him to say them when he tells us a story, so I can then reiterate that it is not a polite way to speak. I think my ways of parenting are working quite well, and this belief is reinforced every time I experience other people's children.

We have always been very open with our son, we try and give him a good understanding of the real world. I do not believe in sheltering his childhood so that when he grows up he gets shocked by the reality of society. Now, obviously this is a fine line to walk, we do not let him watch Rated R movies, but he does watch PG-13 and has since he was abour 9 years old.





> A question for you Prince:
> 
> Do you believe the Bible?


Not sure what you mean by "believe in the bible"? Do I think it was written by a man thru god's words? Absolutely not. Do I think it contains the original meaning it once had many translations ago. Absolutely not, that is a fact.
Do I think the stories are meant to be taken literally? Absolutely not. They're metaphors, storeis with morals behind them, not to be taken literally, that is the biggest mistake that chritians make.

Did that answer your question?


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## Arnold (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ponyboy *_
> Many religions today are run like big business and have nothing to do with faith.  Religions is the past have been hypocritical and evil forces.  Some of the biggest and most violent wars in human history were holy wars because one side had faith in something that another did not, and therefore they were evil.



Amen.


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## OceanDude (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ponyboy *_
> But part of my point is, who defines the standard?


You already consistently stated and advocated that the individual defines the standard. But I still don't trust the lunatic with the gun to be looking after my best interests when he demands a contribution to his political compaign or drug habit - so I still have problems with the pragmatic aspects of this notion. It looks like it all tends toward anarchy to me.



> _*Originally posted by ponyboy *_
> People's perceptions are their own reality.  It is up to us to choose what we feel is right or wrong and live our lives based on that.
> ...because there are many really screwed up people in the world, at least according to my beliefs about what is right and wrong.  But it is not my place to disagree with what someone else believes in.


This implies the necessity for a belief system and a sober and reasonably intelligent mind - I agree (but there are many among us who won't). I am curious if the current beliefs that you have came naturally or did somone put a lot of religious morality principals into your head at an early age?


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> You already consistently stated and advocated that the individual defines the standard. But I still don't trust the lunatic with the gun to be looking after my best interests when he demands a contribution to his political compaign or drug habit - so I still have problems with the pragmatic aspects of this notion. It looks like it all tends toward anarchy to me.
> 
> I agree with that statement.
> ...



Actually my beliefs are almost entirely self-formed.  I was not raised in a religous household, although I did go to Sunday school when very young (Anglican)... some of my family still attends church (semi-regularly) but I personally do not.  When I was in school and learning about psychology (what my degree is in) I did a lot of research on many different religions and philisophical points of view, including metaphysics and satanism, from wicca to baptist.  I just decided on what works for me.  Like I said, it might not work for anyone else, but I'm happy.


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## Tboy (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Now, obviously this is a fine line to walk, we do not let him watch Rated R movies, but he does watch PG-13 and has since he was abour 9 years old.



(playing devil's advocate)

What would it matter if he did watch them?  If you truelly believe that there is no heaven or no hell, why teach him the difference between good and bad?  If there are no consequences in the end it really doesnt matter what you do throughout life, right?






> Do I think the stories are meant to be taken literally? Absolutely not. They're metaphors, storeis with morals behind them, not to be taken literally, that is the biggest mistake that chritians make.



There are lots of scriptures in the bible that are clearly not "telling stories" but are giving actuall direction in life.

Do you think that the story of Noah's ark is just that, A story?  Not an actuall event in time?  There is proof that there was really a world flood at one time in the past.  Is this simply coincidence?


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## OceanDude (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Ocean Dude, the thing that baffles me here is you're an educated person, an engineer, obviously intelligent, you must be extremely logical to be in the engineering field seeing that it requires extreme mathematics, yet you're completely brainwashed with christianity....it's absolutely dumbfounding.
> 
> to each his own I guess.



Prince, the more I learn from Science and Math the more I am convinced how very little we collectively know and how pathetically fallible and imperfect Man???s perception and insight is. Our equations and theorems are a patchwork of heuristic hunches and guesses that do not explain things holistically and only apply in very narrow domains of study. Most of our knowledge and insight, save the ability to observe our own imperfection, fall completely apart when we get out of the limited domains where they ???sort of??? work (e.g. Newtonian Physics verses General Theory of Relativity). Without having the power to create and ???be??? an intimate part of ???a thing??? ???or system of things??? Man can only approximate, model or emulate nature and never completely understand it in all of it???s permutations of existence and it's myriad of interactions with all other things in co-existence. What is discussed, ranted, feared or complained about here by all is in fact a perfect illustration of our own imperfections and inability to comprehend. This is almost complete folly to continue. This does not necessarily mean that there is nothing to be gained in the pursuit of knowledge in discussions such as this (since if nothing else one can always learn the lesson of humility in such folly ??? over and over and over ad nauseam). And perhaps the ???struggle??? through the pathway of folly is akin to the process of annealing, tempering and proving one???s ???inner metal??? ??? essentially defining who and what each of us individually are. In my trial by fire I have come to know that the nature of man is not just physical but also spiritual and there exists a legitimate concept of good and evil that is diametrically opposed to each. If one were to ???model??? this graphically with a simple 2-dimensional model it would look similar to a cross road; interestingly enough also similar to the shape of the Christian cross. This simple model suggests an intersection and implies a decision or course of action and a path to follow. If one overlays religious consideration we are called and invited in various ways to consider a specific path. But there are other agents that compel us take a different path, the path of least resistance. Such is the nature of the struggle. The voices calling from the path of least resistance seek to dissuade us from the more difficult path. From my perspective it would appear that some irrationally conclude that this is all a numbers game and the majority wins when in fact there is theological evidence that quality and rarity is what is called forth to motion toward the more difficult path. It is remarkably consistent with the scripture ???Many are called but few are chosen.???

Is this ???brainwashing???? One principal I have consistently observed in life is that people tend to ???condemn??? or find fault in the precise things in others that they themselves are intimately familiar with and possess within their own being. Such people oftentimes resent this same thing in themselves and call it by name with intimate familiarity when small doses of it are discernable in others or it is confused through errors in perception. This is the danger in judgment since we always run the risk of absolutely and irrefutably condemning ourselves according to our own standard ??? and this is perhaps perfect justice. Given this and your quick judgment of ???brainwashing??? with only a superficial knowledge of me I would compel you then to look deeply inward for the same. See what ???brainwashing??? or possible demons may be lurking there in the place that you would call enlightenment or comfort ??? get outside of your cage and ???think out of the box???. Given our predisposition to fallibility it???s highly likely that you will find in that small place where you have replaced the benefit of the doubt with the righteous certainty of a superior enlightened context you will discover your own brainwashing with bits and pieces of concepts collected over the years but not truly your own. Do not be surprised if you find a buffet of contradictory systems like ???humanism???, ???ego???, ???self???, ???secularism???, ???bigotry???, ???intellectual snobbism???, ???hedonism???, ???infallibility??? and ???hypocrisy??? lurking beyond that veil of righteousness. 

Good luck on your journey - may you make the right decisisons.


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 24, 2003)

*Originally posted by Tboy 
(playing devil's advocate)

What would it matter if he did watch them?  If you truelly believe that there is no heaven or no hell, why teach him the difference between good and bad?  If there are no consequences in the end it really doesnt matter what you do throughout life, right?*

It should matter to you. The only people who can't see the purpose of acting right, without some supreme law, are the ones that have no stake in this world.

If you truly empathize with and have love for all life around you, then the answer is obvious.


*There are lots of scriptures in the bible that are clearly not "telling stories" but are giving actuall direction in life.

Do you think that the story of Noah's ark is just that, A story?  Not an actuall event in time?  There is proof that there was really a world flood at one time in the past.  Is this simply coincidence? *

So Noah managed to build a boat large enough to carry all the world's animals. Even those indigenous to North and South America.


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## ZECH (Jul 24, 2003)

Yes. Do you want the measurements??


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## Pepper (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Ocean Dude, the thing that baffles me here is you're an educated person, an engineer, obviously intelligent, you must be extremely logical to be in the engineering field seeing that it requires extreme mathematics, yet you're completely brainwashed with christianity....it's absolutely dumbfounding.
> 
> to each his own I guess.



Yeah, OceanDude, you are intelligent and educated, how could you believe in Christ with the unwashed, hayseeds otherwise known as Christians?

Prince, not only is that below-the-belt, is it so laughably inaccurate.


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## Snake_Eyes (Jul 24, 2003)

Ocean Dude:

A brief question. If you had been born under other circumstances and raised a Buddhist, do you think Christianity would hold its appeal to you?

I ask because I sincerely believe that the fervor instilled by Christianity is little more than a function of socialization. The memes present in the Bible are so powerful that they can immediately and quickly take hold and in the proper environment, they can completely co-opt a person's world view. 

So then, instead of being able to move to the next level upon encountering new concepts, such as high-order mathematics and science, the person is then caught-- go with the new paradigm, or reject it. This leads to dilemma. You can't "get rid" of your beliefs, because to do so is blasphemy, going against God, yadda yadda.....but at the same time you can't reject the obvious empirical and logical evidence presented by the new paradigm.

So you get rationalization. Attempts to merge the old with the new. This generally results in some half-assed watered-down version of Biblical Christianity whereby you get people trying to mesh quantum mechanics and string theory with fundamentalist Christian thought.

It doesn't work that way. The Bible was written 2000 years ago by a series of men who were, simply put, primitive. The entire cultural and social make-up of those people was backwards, archaic, and by every account a throwback to a tribal, nomadic society. 

You're basing your entire faith and your entire life on how those people decided to interpret Christ's words. Consider. If you had access to a time machine, you could quite easily go back in time with an airplane, some advanced medical supplies, food, and a laptop, and tell those people anything you wanted. If you wanted to be their God, you would be.

So they write a book about you, containing all your edicts and laws, and say "obey or burn for eternity." Then the Roman Empire gets hold of it and it eventually spreads throughout their world, and probably contributes to its collapse.

Now we sit two millennia later, and we have the Book of Ocean Dude. He had a chariot that could fly,  healed all the sick, fed the weak, and had a magical book of light that told the future. 

I'm not proposing anything like time travel or aliens; but my point is, a sufficiently educated and motivated person could conceivably have said or done just about anything to build a following and have his deeds passed on as divinity. Once the Romans got hold of it, there was no way to stop it from spreading all over the West. Now, had that not have happened, Christianity would be a dead faith much like the others that were contemporary with it.

So really...even assuming that nothing in the Bible has been mis-translated, keep a few things in mind: The Old Testament was written by Moses, in Hellenistic Egypt. He didn't experience any of Genesis; those things were already myth even at the time he wrote it.

Most importantly, keep in mind that you're basing this on the interpretation of tribal, nomadic primitives. They saw a "UFO" so to speak, and tried to put it in words as best they could. That's a mighty big trust factor; if I go to a remote African tribe and show them a jet, I'm not going to be putting a whole lot of faith into their description of it and theory on what it was.


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## ZECH (Jul 24, 2003)

SE, I must admit you make a good point about men being primitive 2000 years ago. But that is where you have to realize that they had intervention from Christ to write it! It was inspired by God.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2003)

Amen to that Snake Eyes.  Good post.


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## Arnold (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> (playing devil's advocate)
> 
> What would it matter if he did watch them?  If you truelly believe that there is no heaven or no hell, why teach him the difference between good and bad?  If there are no consequences in the end it really doesnt matter what you do throughout life, right?


Because as I have already stated I regard myself as a "good" person with high moral standards, and I raise my child to hold the same values. As far as heaven and hell, it has nothing to do with my reasons for being a moral being. See I do not need to act a certain way because I fear going to hell as you do, I am a moral person because that is who I choose to be. In the end if there is a judgment day I feel that this what we will be judged on, not the religeon we followed, or in my case did not follow. 




> There are lots of scriptures in the bible that are clearly not "telling stories" but are giving actuall direction in life.
> 
> Do you think that the story of Noah's ark is just that, A story?  Not an actuall event in time?  There is proof that there was really a world flood at one time in the past.  Is this simply coincidence?


Noah's ark! LMAO! that is one of most rediculous stories of all. It did not happen, plain and simple. I am sure there were many floods, that does not make or prove that story true.


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## Pepper (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> 
> Noah's ark! ... It did not happen, plain and simple.



Another declaration that either requires faith on your part or infinite knowledge. (or you'd have to be 10,000 years old)


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## Tboy (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> See I do not need to act a certain way because I fear going to hell as you do,


This is not true.  I would do the things I do, even if I did not believe.



> I am a moral person because that is who I choose to be.


And I commend you for that.  I simply take it a step further.





> Noah's ark! LMAO! that is one of most rediculous stories of all. It did not happen, plain and simple. I am sure there were many floods, that does not make or prove that story true.



When you get some time look over these sites.

http://www.eskimo.com/~dwpatten/DEBATE.html

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noah's_ark.htm

http://www.noahsark-naxuan.com/

Another interesting article

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm


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## Tboy (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> Another declaration that either requires faith on your part or infinite knowledge. (or you'd have to be 10,000 years old)



On the contrary....


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## Arnold (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> I simply take it a step further.



in your opinion you do, not mine.


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## BigBallaGA (Jul 24, 2003)

to each their own..........

but looking over the course of human history, it becomes apparent that religion has been declining in its sphere of influence, inferring from that, one can assume that it will continue to do so.  until it disappears........

science will see to that.......


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## OceanDude (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BigBallaGA *_
> to each their own..........
> 
> but looking over the course of human history, it becomes apparent that religion has been declining in its sphere of influence, inferring from that, one can assume that it will continue to do so.  until it disappears........
> ...


I don't think it will go down precisely in the way that you think.
Moral decay as a result of Man???s disobedience to God is a consistent theme in theology. Given that Science has now developed the technology (but not the moral safeguards) that will permit individual godless men and peoples with seared conscience???s the power to destroy the planet you can take solace in your correctness in predicting that "science will see to that." The godless are counting on an economic détente to prevent it (def: each country has voluntarily forced an economic dependency on the other and holds financial ???eggs??? from all other countries in its investment portfolio/basket as an incentive to self interest and peace). The fundamentalists are banking on the "rapture" coming in just in time to save them from it. The humanists are hoping against hope that man will look after each other and not engage in self defeating behavior (all the while forgetting the lessons of history and failed pacifism). The faithful are just praying it does not happen or that God will intervene to limit it. The hedonistic are just going to party as much as they can ??????for tomorrow we die???. The elderly are hoping it doesn???t happen on their shift and screw up their retirement. The theologians know what is coming and that all will suffer. The rest either have their heads in the sand or are clueless to how close the world is at this very moment to an unspeakable calamity of events and misqueues. Let us hope that those praying find favor with God.


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## Tboy (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> in your opinion you do, not mine.



Going above and beyond the norm would be a step, yes?  


Anyways...  Out of all the post I have made I hope someone will have gotten something usefull from it, or at least provoked some positive thinking.  

I  don't want to lead people to believe that I am argueing neck and neck or side by side with some of the others that have posted in this thread.  I am in no way saying that I am better or above any of the other christians (or anyone else for that matter), I just don't neccessarily agree with some of them.  No offense ment to anyone. 

 Having said that. I am bowing out of this topic, unless someone actually has a question that I may be of some use for.

*picks up toys and heads for the door*

*Peace out.*


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## Arnold (Jul 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> I am bowing out of this topic, unless someone actually has a question that I may be of some use for.



me too.


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## tidalwaverus (Aug 1, 2003)

The Matchless Pearl

A heavy splash was followed by many ripples and then the water below the pier was still. David Morse, a missionary, crouched low on the pier, his eyes riveted where a stream of little bubbles rose to the surface from deep under the water. In a moment his old friend Rambhau, an Indian pearl diver, appeared and clambered onto the dock, grinning.

"Look at this one, sahib," said Rambhau, taking a big oyster from between his teeth. "I think it will be good."

Morse took it and pried it open with his pocketknife. "Rambhau! Look!" exclaimed Morse, "Why it's a treasure!"

"Yes, a good one," shrugged the diver.

"Good! It's perfect isn't it? Have you ever seen a better pearl? " cried Morse, turning the pearl over in his hands.

"Oh, yes, there are better pearls, much better. Why, I have one..." his voice trailed off. "See here--the imperfections--the black speck here, this tiny dent. It's not even round, but good enough as pearls go."

"Your eye is too sharp for your good, my friend," lamented Morse. "I would never ask for a more perfect pearl!"

"It is just as you say about your God," answered Rambhau. "To themselves people seem without fault, but God sees them as they really are." The two men started down the dusty road to town.

"You're right, Rambhau, but God offers a perfect righteousness to all who will simply believe and accept His free offer of salvation through His beloved Son--"

"No, sahib. As I've told you so many times, it's too easy. That is where your religion breaks down. Perhaps I am too proud, but I must work for my place in heaven. Do you see that man over there? He is a pilgrim, perhaps to Bombay or Calcutta. He walks barefooted over the sharpest stones--and see--every few paces he kneels down and kisses the road. That is good. The first day of the new year I shall begin my pilgrimage. All my life I have planned it. I shall make sure of heaven this time. I am going to Delhi on my knees."

"Rambhau! You're crazy! It's nine hundred miles to Delhi! The skin will break on your knees and you will have blood poisoning or leprosy before you ever get there."

"No, I must go to Delhi. The suffering will be sweet, for it will purchase heaven for me."

"Rambhau, my friend, you can't! How can I let you do this when Jesus Christ, by His death and resurrection, has already done all to purchase heaven for you?"

But the old man could not be moved. "You are my dearest friend on earth, sahib Morse. Through many years you have stood beside me. In sickness and want you have been sometimes my only friend. But even you cannot turn me from this great desire to purchase eternal bliss. I must go to Delhi." It was useless. The old pearl diver could not understand, could not accept the free salvation of Christ.

Later one afternoon Morse answered a knock at his door to find Rambhau there.

"My good friend!" exclaimed Morse. "Come in."

"No," said the pearl diver. "I want you to come with me to my house, sahib. I have something to show you."

The heart of the missionary leaped. Perhaps God was answering his prayers at last. "Of course I'll come."

Inside Rambhau's home, Morse was seated on the chair where many times he had sat explaining to the diver God's way of salvation, Rambhau left the room to return with a small but heavy strongbox. "I have had this strongbox for years," he said. "I keep only one thing in it. Now I will tell you about it. Sahib Morse, I once had a son."

"A son! Rambhau, you never said a word about him!"

"No, sahib, I couldn't."

As the diver spoke, his eyes were wet with tears. "Now I must tell you, for soon I will leave, and who knows whether I shall ever return? My son was a diver, too--the best pearl diver on the coasts of India. He had the swiftest dive, the keenest eye, the strongest arm, the longest breath of any man who sought for pearls. What joy he brought to me! He always dreamed of finding a pearl beyond all others. One day he found it, but in his desire to get it, he stayed under too long. He lost his life soon after. All these years I have kept the pearl, but now, my friend, I am giving it to you."

The old man, shaking with emotion, worked the lock on the strongbox and drew from it a carefully wrapped package. Gently folding back the cloths, he picked up a mammoth pearl and placed it in the hand of the missionary. It was one of the largest pearls ever found off the coast of India, and it glowed with a luster and brilliance Morse had never seen. It would have brought a fabulous sum in any market.

For a moment the missionary was speechless and gazed on the pearl with awe. "Rambhau! what a pearl!"

"That pearl, sahib, is perfect," he replied quietly.

The missionary looked up quickly with a new thought.

"Rambhau this is a wonderful pearl, an amazing pearl. Let me buy it. I will give you ten thousand dollars for it."

"Sahib! What do you mean?"

"Well, I will give you fifteen thousand dollars for it, or if it takes more I will work for it."

"Sahib," said Rambhau, as his whole body stiffened, "this pearl is beyond all price. No man in all the world has enough money to pay what this pearl is worth to me. I could never sell it. You may only have it as a gift."

"No, Rambhau, I cannot accept it that way. Perhaps I am too proud, but that is too easy. I must earn it."

The old pearl diver was stunned. "You don't understand at all, sahib. Don't you see? My only son gave his life to get this pearl, and nothing you would do could ever earn it. Its worth is in the life-blood of my son. Just accept it as a token of the love I have for you."

For a moment the missionary could not speak. Then he gripped the hand of his old friend. "Rambhau," he said in a low voice, "don't you see? That is just what God has been saying to you."

The diver looked long and searchingly at the missionary and slowly he began to understand.

"God is offering salvation to you as a free gift. It is so great and priceless that no man on earth could buy it--millions of dollars are too little. No man can earn it--in a thousand pilgrimages you could not earn it. It cost God the life-blood of His only Son to make the entrance for you into heaven. All you can do is accept it as a token of God's love for you, a sinner.

"Rambhau, of course I will accept the pearl in deep humility, praying God I may be worthy of your love. But won't you accept God's great gift of eternal life, in deep humility knowing it cost Him the death of His only Son to offer it to you?"

Great tears were rolling down the face of the old man. The veil was lifting. He understood at last. "Sahib, I see it now. I could not believe that His salvation was free, but now I understand. Some things are too priceless to be bought or earned. Sahib, I accept His offer of salvation."

"God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8).

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8,9).

"I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but throught me. 
                                                                                   JESUS

I'm done too God Bless


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## Robboe (Aug 1, 2003)

You guys know that easter falls on the biggest pagan holiday of the calendar year, right?

Of course, being pagan, it's a lunar holiday. As in, easter falls on different days each year.


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## brennan (Aug 1, 2003)

I'm Catholic and i believe out of faith


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## OceanDude (Aug 1, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> You guys know that easter falls on the biggest pagan holiday of the calendar year, right?
> 
> Of course, being pagan, it's a lunar holiday. As in, easter falls on different days each year.



And your point is __?


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## Arnold (Aug 1, 2003)

Chicken Daddy often has no point.


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## Pepper (Aug 1, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> And your point is __?



TCD is a "seagull poster" - flies in, craps all over everything, makes a bunch of noise, then flies off.

He's just trying to get this going again.


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## kuso (Aug 1, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> 
> He's just trying to get this going again.



Well, Tidal was actually the one to bump this


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## Freeman (Aug 1, 2003)

I do NOT follow a religion.  I was brought up baptist in my early years and remember sitting through the classes and what not thinking to myself "this is a bunch of garbage" and I always thought the pictures of Jesus on the cross were rather cool, not disturbing or sad.  So sue me.  Also, I'd say, if I were forced to join a religion (which really is impossible) I have the most respect for Buddhism or even Satanism.  The Satanic Bible, from what I have read, is actually pretty interesting.


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## Robboe (Aug 2, 2003)

Point is that easter is just a twist off of a pagan holiday.

And this thread was already bumped by the time i got into it you frickin' moron.


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## GFR (Apr 4, 2006)




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## Little Wing (Apr 4, 2006)

holy shit! this thread has risen from the grave... *falls to knees n pays homage to the god of ancient threads*


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