# Advice for massive cutting plan



## Calypso (Sep 30, 2010)

Hello all! This is my first post. I realize that all these first timer posts can make you guys want to kill yourselves, especially with the "help I need advice" then they don't want to follow your advice, or often questions are asked which have been answered 1000 times before. I'll try to not be one of those people >.< I read all of the top "sticky'd" threads before making this post so hopefully I don't screw it up.

Quick background: I grew up fat. I have never once in my life (since I was 4) been in good shape. I'm not saying I was born fat, I'm saying I've had horrible diet, exercise, and self-control. Fast-food, fried foods, and not exercising were the only enjoyable things in life for me for several years. I decided in 2009 I wanted to turn it all around, and that I was willing to give up everything or completely change my lifestyle to accomplish it.

The flip: I purchased Tom Venuto's BFFM e-book and began changing my life. Every month I would fine tune more and more things to get my life as close to the BFFM plan as possible. I've always (and still do) looked for ways to tweak everything from my nutrient portions/meal, to meal times, and exercise. It has worked really well for me as you can see my progress below.

@ start of BFFM:
1) Age: 23
2) Weight and Percent BodyFat: 310lbs, ~35%
3) Years of Consistant Training experience: 0
4) Previous Cycle experience: None
5) Training routine and Diet: No exercice + fastfood 3xday
6) Cycle Goals: n/a

CURRENT:
1) Age: 24
2) Weight and Percent BodyFat: 256lbs, ~30.3%
3) Years of Consistant Training experience: 1
4) Previous Cycle experience: none
5) Training routine and Diet: Following BFFM exactly exercise+diet
6) Cycle Goals: lose massive amounts of fat if not possible then raise mass to increase RMR.

I am 6ft 1in tall, and believe I am supposed to weigh somewhere around 180-200 lbs.

Here is my situation: I recently found a source who *only has access to 2 things*: test, and Trembolone. I explained to him that I still have lots of fat to lose before I worry about muscle gain. I do understand (thanks to BFFM) that having more muscle will help because it will raise my RMR. I also understand that you can't really burn fat and build muscle at the same time. There must be a clear goal, as one requires a caloric deficit and the other requires a caloric surplus. My goal end result goal is to lose lots of fat. I wasn't sure (and neither was the source) how long I would be able to get them for. Meaning I might decide I wanted them a week later but the source wouldn't be able to get them. That sort of panic'd me into just buying them right then and there. I now realize I wish I had posted this first...

Now I'm almost positive some of you will say "don't use that, use _xyz_" or "you would be much better off using some _l+m_". I believe you guys, and trust you 100%. You are all much more knowledgeable about any of this stuff than I am. I would never disagree and claim that your advice is "bad" or "incorrect". I would just like to point out: I don't have access to _xyz_, nor do I have access to _l_ or _m_... So if you're giving your "this is best" recommendation, I do appreciate it, and I do commend you for your knowledge and taking your time to share it with me, but it doesn't do me a whole lot of good seeing as I don't have a source to get it, and asking for a source is strictly against forum rules (and for a good reason).

That being said, this is my question: How do I now modify or tweak the BFFM plan (I'm sure most of you guys know it by heart) to incorporate the Trembolone since I already purchased it? Is there a way to stay in my "burn fat" mode while using it? If so, what modifications (if any) need to be made? If it is not possible to stay in that mode (calorie deficit), then I assume my only option would be to switch modes to building muscle just for the duration of the cycle (90 days), and then go back to fat loss?

Your wisdom and insight is much appreciated. Thank you all in advance.


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## pyes (Sep 30, 2010)

Very good post, thanx for all the info. Saddly I am not that familiar with tren, but i know that for cutting steroids to work, you have to have fairly low BF% to begin with. I will tell you staright out that all our board sponsers have a better selection of gear. Dieting is by far the hardest thing about bodybuilding. You have to burn 3600 calories to lose one pound of BF. I do not think tren is for you at the moment, but have you ever considered an ECA stack? ECA is ephedrine, caffiene, and asprin. The ECA stack is a fairly potent central nervous system (CNS) stimulant.  The components work together synergistically; in other words, their combined effect is much greater than the effect of the individual components alone.  The effects of the stack are:  a major decrease in appetite, thermogenesis (creation of heat), which causes the body to burn more calories; increased fat burning and muscle sparing through the stimulation of beta-receptor sites.


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## martialartsman (Oct 1, 2010)

Nice post mate and welcome, first pyes has beaten me to it again....lol. I agree you should try and ECA stack which you can get as of the sponsers on here, the reason for saying this is that my wife wanted to lose weight and she is taking an ECA stack and it works. I would leave the bits you have for a later date and go with that mate. Not what you wanted to hear im sure but its the best advice i can offer. Good luck mate with what ever you decide.


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## Built (Oct 1, 2010)

By your own calculations, dropping from 310 lbs and 35% bodyfat, to 256 lbs and 30.3% bodyfat, you've lost 54 lbs - which is awesome!

Unfortunately, you've lost only 31 lbs of fat - and 23 lbs of muscle. You started with 202 lbs LBM and now hold 178 lbs lean mass. 
While it IS normal to drop some lean mass when dieting for fat loss, this does not usually happen in the initial stages of fat loss, while still obese and while lifting weights. 

I do not like BFFM as a paradigm, and you've just demonstrated WHY I don't like it - the methodology is flawed and out-dated. 
That being said, you've taken tremendous strides toward improving your health by cleaning up your diet and dropping weight. Let's see if we can help you drop the rest of it without dropping too much more lean mass, okay?

If you manage to keep most of what you have now, you should be nicely lean by the time you hit 200 lbs. Care to set up a training log? We can help you set up your next phase.


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## Calypso (Oct 2, 2010)

Thank you all for the responses! I had never heard of the ECA stack before. Does me going on ECA stack also make sense to you Built? What should I do with the Trembolone I have now? I was hoping your recommendations weren't to just hold on to it lol, but thats the impression I get, right? It was so expensive I can't let it go completely to waste, does anyone know the Half-life or ... shelf-life/how long Trembolone will last?

Also I wanted to point out that I really did not have an accurate way of measuring fat mass/lean mass before/when I started. Since then I've gotten a much more accurate tool. It's definitely possible that my % of body fat was even higher when I started. I'm not doubting that I lost muscle in the process, I'm sure I did. Although it certainly doesn't look or feel like I did.

I am open to any ideas you have about what I should be doing for training. My normal schedule is Mon-Sat 1hr intense cardio first thing in the morning before work. Then after work I go back for 30-45min weights (change muscle group dep on day) and 30min cardio. When I say cardio, I don't mean like the people you see at the gym watching TV or jogging or going so slow they're able to talk and socialize while exercising. I mean insane, balls to the wall, feel like I am about to die, sometimes limbs go numb after a while, get dizzy, etc. I keep my heart rate very high and my clothes are soaked and literally dripping sweat out of them. Many people I talk to have some sort of "cardio is completely useless" theory, which might be true if you're somewhat close to where you should be in terms of weight or BMI. Just please remember I'm still obese. I'm approx 66 pounds of fat overweight. Again, the only things I know are things I learned from BFFM, so I am definitely open to hearing your thoughts on what my training should be. Can't hurt to have more expert opinions!

Also can you put links to the ECA stacks you'd each recommend? (if thats not against forum rules) If it is just say which brand or amount of what to take I guess.


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## Built (Oct 2, 2010)

Do a search for ephedrine posts I've made and you'll see how to use this supp. 

First though, please read the link in my sig on getting started and report back with your current macros.


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## Calypso (Oct 2, 2010)

I got all my stuff done up in a spreadsheet. I have to run to my parttime job now  but I'll post it somehow when I get back a little later today!


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## Built (Oct 2, 2010)

Perfect. We'll be here.


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## Calypso (Oct 2, 2010)

*Meal times/portions in attached pictures*

Ok so if you???re wondering what I eat and going to make suggestions on how it should be adjusted to maximize my goal, you should know I primarily eat sandwiches. With all the time at the gym and working my part-time and full-time job I have almost no time at all for preparing meals or cooking ahead or actually ???cooking??? anything. In an attempt to keep my macronutrient ratios decent the only solution I could really come up with was sandwiches. Occasionally (especially on weekends) I might have eggs or some turkey sausage for breakfast, or some grilled/bbq???d chicken later on (trying always to keep it healthy). For the most part, my diet is sandwiches, they???re fast, very portable, don???t require any prep, can even be assembled out of the fridge at work. The bread I use is Pepperidge Farm whole wheat (2 slices = 200cal, 40g carb, 10g prot, 3g fat), then I rotate the meat between tuna, ham, chicken, and turkey. I???ll add either lettuce/tomato/cucumber slices, or have carrots/broccoli on the side. The Ham, Turkey, Chiken, basically works out to: 150cal, 30g prot, 2-3g fat. The Tuna is a bit higher at 180cal, 40g prot, 1.5g fat. I used to take Udo???s choice 3-6-9 oil to supplement the healthy fat I was missing but then it ran out and I never got another bottle because they???re $50/bottle??? If your recommendations are for more fat then I???ll go buy another bottle.
The average sandwich breaks down to: 350cal, 40g carb, 40g prot, 5g fat.


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## Built (Oct 2, 2010)

This isn't what I need. I need to know this:

Your current average calories
Your current average grams of protein, grams of carbohydrate, and grams of fat. 
The percentages mean nothing to me. Nothing else does, actually. Just the calories and the grams for the entire day.
Thanks. 

PS I would not recommend Udo's oil because it is balanced. You are already unbalanced. The one that's the most out of whack is Omega 3 that's the one you should take. Get fish oil capsules and take at least ten of them daily - check the strength, but you want to get in at least 3 grams (3000 mg) of combined EPA/DHA and for most commercial brands, that's ten grams of fish oil. Don't bother with flax oil; the ALA won't convert to EPA/DHA to any appreciable extent.


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## unclem (Oct 2, 2010)

Calypso said:


> Hello all! This is my first post. I realize that all these first timer posts can make you guys want to kill yourselves, especially with the "help I need advice" then they don't want to follow your advice, or often questions are asked which have been answered 1000 times before. I'll try to not be one of those people >.< I read all of the top "sticky'd" threads before making this post so hopefully I don't screw it up.
> 
> Quick background: I grew up fat. I have never once in my life (since I was 4) been in good shape. I'm not saying I was born fat, I'm saying I've had horrible diet, exercise, and self-control. Fast-food, fried foods, and not exercising were the only enjoyable things in life for me for several years. I decided in 2009 I wanted to turn it all around, and that I was willing to give up everything or completely change my lifestyle to accomplish it.
> 
> ...


 
 bro your to fat, try dieting down without gear to 15% bf and in the meantime try lcarnitine, slow push, kynoselen with amp5 switch and please on the kynoselen, use a very slow im push, if u dont youll get a feeling of having a heart attack. please push the vitamin very slowly , i cant stress enough. u wont like the heart rythyms if u push it to fast. u can spot inject lcarnitine for extra loss if not to much yellow fat.use all im with 25g x 1.5" needle as your bf% is high so u have to go deep into muscle. there aminos and vitamins, not gear so ull notice a great shredding of weight. also, u might with lcarnitine feel a very intense burn and your tounge might get a pins feeling for awhile, all normal. science fair. good luck with getting down your bf. oh, if u spot inject use a slin pin. iam 280 at 11- 13% bf and used the stuff for yrs and it keeps u thin if u keep it going. its very legal to have but if u live in ny dont try purchasing pins as they are controlled substance here. the sites are online, google it. it comes in 100ml vials. i stopped using it for now to put more weight on. now good luck.


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## Calypso (May 27, 2011)

All you nice folks willing to help me and I don't even respond for 7 months...
Been busy but didn't completely give up on the diet/exercise.

In terms of how many grams I'm eating per day I think this is fairly accurate:
On a 2200 calorie day it breaks down to: 220 grams of carbs, 220 grams of protein, 50 grams of fat
On a 2800 calorie day it breaks down to: 282 grams of carbs, 282 grams of protein, 63 grams of fat


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## Built (May 27, 2011)

Okay, that's great. Now, how about the rest of the info:

Height
current weight
approx pounds lean mass
your maintenance calories
are you gaining or losing on your current diet; if so, at what rate?
what are your current goals? Timeline?
Describe your training
Medical conditions? 
Age?
meds?


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## Calypso (May 27, 2011)

Height: 6'1"
current weight: 268 (gained weight and body fat % went up over past 7months)
approx pounds lean mass: 178
your maintenance calories: 2800 (I think)
are you gaining or losing on your current diet; if so, at what rate: losing slowly, maybe 1lb/wk
what are your current goals? Timeline? Goal is to get fat mass down from 35% to 20% or lose at least 30 lbs of fat. Ideal (initial) timeline is 15 weeks (from today) but will continue afterwards
Describe your training: HIIT cardio in the morning before work for 45min-1hr on empty stomach, then back to the gym for weights (rotating upper/lower body) after work for 45min sometimes will do more cardio in afternoon instead if muscles sore.
Medical conditions: none
Age: 24
meds: no prescrip, no gear, bought some suppliments from primaforce: Yohimbine
Pure ALA
Insopro-R
L-Leucine
Syneburn
Alcalean

I know there is no weight loss "pill" and that I need diet and exercise I'm hoping some of those are helpful though. If you're familiar with any of them please let me know which are garbage and which are useful. I take a regular GNC mens multivitamin.


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## GMO (May 27, 2011)

Calypso said:


> Height: 6'1"
> current weight: 268 (gained weight and body fat % went up over past 7months)
> approx pounds lean mass: 178
> your maintenance calories: 2800 (I think)
> ...


 
Hopefully this thread will be moved to the "Diet and Nutrition" Forum.  Your BF% is much too high to even consider running a course of anabolics.  Stick with Built on your diet and training, and she'll get you straightened out.  If and when you reach 12-13% BF and want to try a cycle, come on back and we'll be glad to help.  Good luck, bro


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## Calypso (May 27, 2011)

You're right it should be moved to that section now. Thanks for pointing that out GMO. I think Built can move it...


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## sharoncrunch (Jun 1, 2011)

Can't answer your question but did want to say kudos to you for all the great work you've done and continue to do!!!!!!


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