# Taking Havoc by RPN... PCT HELP?



## bones33 (May 1, 2008)

I will be taking Havoc for a 4 week cycle.. after it says you dont NEED a PCT,  but I was thinking of running 6-oxo afterwards... Should this be sufficiant?


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## bones33 (May 2, 2008)

someone please?


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## Amino89 (May 2, 2008)

Age?
PH, AAS history?
Years training?
Is your diet and training regimen solid?


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## Bradicallyman (May 2, 2008)

I dont know where you got that you don't need PCT because you do. I have read that Havoc does not convert to estrogen but you still need to jump start your natural production of testosterone. Take a serm!


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## BigDyl (May 2, 2008)

bones33 said:


> I will be taking Havoc for a 4 week cycle.. after it says you dont NEED a PCT,  but I was thinking of running 6-oxo afterwards... Should this be sufficiant?



You need PCT badly.  You need to run a SERM, an AI is optional but recommended.


Start out at 10-20 mg's a day for the first few days to access your tolerance.  Slowly up the dose based on bodyweight.  I personally know the guy who designed havoc, and he says 50 mg is the sweet spot if you can handle it.


It will make you lose alot of hair if you are proned, so use revita shampoo and at least 2-3 mg's of finasteride a day.  It will thin your hair quick if you are susceptible.


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## workingatit43 (May 2, 2008)

If you are old enough which I hope you are you need to have a pct and you need to run support supps. You can look into Cycle Support or Life Support and pre-load it for 1-2 week and continue throughout the cycle. For pct I would have a SERM on hand you may not need it but it is very good to have if a problem comes up.

For pct you can run Stoked or Post Cycle Support and I would have a cortisol product which I would start on day 15 of pct. If you also want to run a AI you can run towards the end of pct and taper it down. Best of luck and if you need any help let me know


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## bones33 (May 2, 2008)

21, male.. 165lbs.. Eating about 2,700 cals a day...  First time ever taking a PH


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## bones33 (May 2, 2008)

Also guys is those 2 supplements he recommended for PCT decent?


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## Bradicallyman (May 3, 2008)

bones33 said:


> Also guys is those 2 supplements he recommended for PCT decent?



He recommended Post cycle support and stoked which I do not know much of. But he also recommended a serm which is an absolute must when taking a PH. When I took havoc, I used cycle support, taurine, and potassium during the cycle, and nolva for PCT


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## bones33 (May 3, 2008)

Ok, Did you get decent results? Any hair loss? From what i've heard people who experience the hairloss are usually genetically predetermined for hairloss so it speeds it up...


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## workingatit43 (May 3, 2008)

Yes I lost some hair in the 4th week at 40mg but I am prone to MPB anyways


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## Amino89 (May 3, 2008)

PCT for Havoc 
-SERM
-Post Cycle Support (will help retain libido and aid in regulation of endogenous hormones)

OTC PCT
-Post Cycle Support
-I3C
-SAMe
-6-oxo tapered down
-SERM on hand in case of sides


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## alwhoowns (May 4, 2008)

hey im 18 years old and 135 pounds of lean muscle (ran track for 5 years) im also gonna start taking havoc soon. the only PCT i plan on taking is gonna be a SERM anyone know of an over the counter one i can take


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## Amino89 (May 4, 2008)

alwhoowns said:


> hey im 18 years old and 135 pounds of lean muscle (ran track for 5 years) im also gonna start taking havoc soon. the only PCT i plan on taking is gonna be a SERM anyone know of an over the counter one i can take



I hope your joking, do NOT take ANY hormonal products at 18 it can cause irreversible damage to the endocrine system. You have plenty of time to get big, and have no way reached your potential. Look into creatine, multivitamin, fish oil, and protein alongside a good diet and training regimen.


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## workingatit43 (May 5, 2008)

alwhoowns said:


> hey im 18 years old and 135 pounds of lean muscle (ran track for 5 years) im also gonna start taking havoc soon. the only PCT i plan on taking is gonna be a SERM anyone know of an over the counter one i can take




Yes you are to young you going to mess yourself up please do not touch the steriods yet


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## alwhoowns (May 5, 2008)

ok well i stopped growing a long time ago. i have been taking creatine and 5 scoops of whey protein a day for 6 months and have only gained 7 pounds of muscle mass. im gonna take it anyways. someone recommended Epistane does it work


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## Amino89 (May 5, 2008)

Just because your epiphyseal discs have closed does not mean you are done growing. Your endocrine system (hormone making system) is continually maturing until mid 20's. I don't think you should mess with your hormones at this age if you cannot gain any more muscle it is due to your training and diet regimen. You have not reached your genetic potential at 135lbs you need to concentrate on perfecting your diet and training rather than relying on exogenous hormones for gains. I doubt you will find anyone that will help an 18 year old with a cycle.


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## workingatit43 (May 5, 2008)

Amino89 said:


> Just because your epiphyseal discs have closed does not mean you are done growing. Your endocrine system (hormone making system) is continually maturing until mid 20's. I don't think you should mess with your hormones at this age if you cannot gain any more muscle it is due to your training and diet regimen. You have not reached your genetic potential at 135lbs you need to concentrate on perfecting your diet and training rather than relying on exogenous hormones for gains. I doubt you will find anyone that will help an 18 year old with a cycle.





This is the best advice you are going to get please take note of it for safety sakes


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## alwhoowns (May 5, 2008)

ok well can you help me with my diet then. i eat oatmeal with 2 scoops of whey protein in it in the morning. except for a 20gram power bar for lunch i dont eat lunch cause they serve horrible shit at my school. and for dinner i usuall have 1 to 2 pounds of grilled chicken, and some mashed potatoes or something close with 4 scoops of whey protein. i also take creatine 2 hours before i work out. as for workout regimen my brother is a personal trainer who designed a lifting regimen for me.


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## Bradicallyman (May 5, 2008)

alwhoowns said:


> ok well can you help me with my diet then. i eat oatmeal with 2 scoops of whey protein in it in the morning. except for a 20gram power bar for lunch i dont eat lunch cause they serve horrible shit at my school. and for dinner i usuall have 1 to 2 pounds of grilled chicken, and some mashed potatoes or something close with 4 scoops of whey protein. i also take creatine 2 hours before i work out. as for workout regimen my brother is a personal trainer who designed a lifting regimen for me.



Your diet is horrible. If the lunch at your school is bad, bring something with you. You need some veggies, healthy fats and a few different sources of protein. 6 scoops of whey a day seems a bit much, especially when you are not getting very much from real food. Try tuna, chicken breast, lean meat, beef, or turkey. You seem to want to gain mass, correct me if I am wrong. In order for you to gain mass, you must consume more than your body burns off. You are probably getting 1000 calories at the most with that diet. That is the reason your have plateaued. Educate yourself and grow naturally before considering hormones.


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## Amino89 (May 5, 2008)

Bradicallyman said:


> Your diet is horrible. If the lunch at your school is bad, bring something with you. You need some veggies, healthy fats and a few different sources of protein. 6 scoops of whey a day seems a bit much, especially when you are not getting very much from real food. Try tuna, chicken breast, lean meat, beef, or turkey. You seem to want to gain mass, correct me if I am wrong. In order for you to gain mass, you must consume more than your body burns off. You are probably getting 1000 calories at the most with that diet. That is the reason your have plateaued



x2....Try and get your nutrition from nutrient dense whole foods. Shakes are more for convenience like at work or school and post-workout due to the fast absorption. I'd try incorporating the following in your diet, and researching the basics of nutrition. 

Healthy fats: Natural peanut butter/almond butter/cashew butter, nuts, EVOO, flax oil, fish oil, avocado, etc.

Lean meats: lean sirloin, steak, eggs, egg whites, fish, chicken, turkey. 

Complex carbohydates: yams, sweet potatoes, oats, veggies, whole grain pastas and breads, etc.


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## irontaylor (Aug 4, 2008)

hey guys i understand what your telling that 18 year old. hes only 135 lbs he has so much room to grow. Im also 18 and weigh 180lbs and im only 5'7. im solid muscle got my six pack no fat. bench about 300lbs. At the point im at i'm considering havoc to help me continue to grow. I know im still 18 but i know how to take this and plan to only wokr my way up to 30mg and back down on a 4 week cycle. I dont think this will cause any damage. any thoughts?

-taylor (not a know it all teenager, i want feedback)


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## SnowManSnow (Aug 4, 2008)

dont juice at 18.  i can't imagine a scenerio that i would say otherwise.

if it sees like you've quit growing muscle then you need to change up your training some, and eat more.  

don't forget you need lots of calories, and fats along with protein to make it all work.

b


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## irontaylor (Aug 4, 2008)

i know all that. but what more is my body gonna know at 21 than 18? how is 21 the magic number?


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## nni (Aug 4, 2008)

irontaylor said:


> i know all that. but what more is my body gonna know at 21 than 18? how is 21 the magic number?



23 is more appropriate, less chance of developmental issues.


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## zombul (Aug 4, 2008)

nni said:


> 23 is more appropriate, less chance of developmental issues.



 Agreed the body should be done with it's natural growth spirts before utilizing a ph.


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## workingatit43 (Aug 4, 2008)

nni said:


> 23 is more appropriate, less chance of developmental issues.




Can't agree more I would wait till 23 yrs old. Bro you can screw up you endo system juicing that early it is not worth it.


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## tomuchgear (Aug 5, 2008)

magic number is simply your body starts to function diffrently. at 18 you are still jacked with natural test levels. why risk suppressing that and screwing it up. if you want a better protien take lba's. a hell of alot better than whey.


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## lucifuge (Aug 5, 2008)

tomuchgear said:


> *magic number is simply your body starts to function diffrently. at 18 you are still jacked with natural test levels. why risk suppressing that and screwing it up.*



absolutely....
use what you got, with the amount your body's producing on it's own, adding more is essentially pointless.
These guys are giving it to you straight... don't even think about PH/PS until about 26 years old IMO. 
Train, eat, grow.... at your age it's as simple as that.


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## irontaylor (Aug 5, 2008)

ok i already do everything i can do besides steroids tho i take everything but steroids i eat enough i train my ass off properly and do everything there is to do.  i dont believe my endo system is going to be hurt by 30 days of this stuff in small amounts. im not going up to 50mg like other people im only working up to 30 and then back down again. at a young age is when your body is best able to recover from juice too thats proven


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## irontaylor (Aug 5, 2008)

i am at the top of my hormone levels at my age but im still not growing anymore im 5'7 and 180lbs thats pretty much the natural limit man i dont have a shred of fat on me


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## nni (Aug 5, 2008)

irontaylor said:


> i am at the top of my hormone levels at my age but im still not growing anymore im 5'7 and 180lbs thats pretty much the natural limit man i dont have a shred of fat on me



honestly this is the dumbest argument that a teenager can present. just because you have stopped growing in height does not mean that your body is done growing. your hormones are still in flux as are your other systems. your brain isnt fully developed yet and more on more research has been coming out showing mental issues and steroid use in adolescents. 

think of it this way, is 10lbs of muscle worth possible low test, possible gyno, possible erectile dysfunction down the road? is it worth possible depression, anxiety or anger issues down the road? is it really worth to possibly effect the rest of your life because you want to be bigger now?

if the answer to any of those is yes, then you are beyond help and just not smart enough to consider the consequences.


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## tomuchgear (Aug 5, 2008)

irontaylor said:


> ok i already do everything i can do besides steroids tho i take everything but steroids i eat enough i train my ass off properly and do everything there is to do.  i dont believe my endo system is going to be hurt by 30 days of this stuff in small amounts. im not going up to 50mg like other people im only working up to 30 and then back down again. at a young age is when your body is best able to recover from juice too thats proven



ok smart ass if you are doing every thing right and growing then why the hell would you need it. i dont believe for a second you are doing every thing right if you think you need any kind of juice legal or other wise. aas, and prohormones are to break through natural limits. really its that simple. taking them now is a waste of time. your body is producing more than what you would get off taking them. use what you got. if you are not growing post your workout post your diet. are you really getting as much protien as you think you are? is all your protien from whey? how often do you really eat a day? are you using ratios or some crap you read in a body building magazine?


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## ZECH (Aug 5, 2008)

If you can't grow by eating, steriods will certainly not help you.


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## workingatit43 (Aug 6, 2008)

irontaylor said:


> ok i already do everything i can do besides steroids tho i take everything but steroids i eat enough i train my ass off properly and do everything there is to do.  i dont believe my endo system is going to be hurt by 30 days of this stuff in small amounts. im not going up to 50mg like other people im only working up to 30 and then back down again. at a young age is when your body is best able to recover from juice too thats proven



Do not come here asking for advise if your just going to say to everyone basically screw you I going to do it anyways. Go ahead it your body do what you want and we will be here to answer you HELP!!!!! thread when you have man tits or at age 21 have a test level in the low 200,s


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