# Should Stanley "Tookie" Williams Be Granted Clemency?



## Diakonos (Nov 30, 2005)

For those of you who may not know this man, Stanley "Tookie" Williams was convicted and sent to San Quentin Prison on four counts of murder in 1979 (though he has always maintained that he is innocent).  Since then, Williams has turned his life around.  He has written nine children's books and speaking out against gang violence and, he has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize each year since 2001.  Oh by the way, did I also mention that Williams is co-founder of the Crips, and considered by many who are affiliated with the gang to be an O.G.  He is scheduled to be excuted on December 13, 2005.  Many have spoken out on behalf of Williams saying that he should be granted clemency.  Of course there also many who believe that he should still be executed, regardless of how he has turned his life around.  Here are some links.  Please read them and share your opinions.
http://www.nbc4.tv/news/5394294/detail.html

http://www.nationalledger.com/artman/publish/article_27261834.shtml

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/30/153247


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## The Monkey Man (Nov 30, 2005)

Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time!!!

He carried out his message from jail -


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## Dale Mabry (Nov 30, 2005)

I think the death penalty should be invoked for reposts.


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## BigDyl (Nov 30, 2005)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> I think the death penalty should be invoked for reposts.



>


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## lnvanry (Nov 30, 2005)

He was convected in a court of law for murder...execution style...the victim (military seviceman) was kneelling and shot in the back of the head.

He has refused to help law enforcement even thought he has vital intel considering he started crips and knows all the chiefs in LA.

I am not huge fan of death penalty but there needs to be consistency.  If the courts ordered it then it should be done...it was ordered by a jury too not a judge.

none of this matters though b/c Arnold granted him the clemency


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## lnvanry (Nov 30, 2005)

I guess Arnold is actually trying to be a politician and help out w/ his black votes


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## gococksDJS (Nov 30, 2005)

No, he souldn't be granted clemency. Since when does writing childrens books negate the fact that he's killed 4 people? Knowing the exact time, day and method of your own death would effect the way anyone thinks. He knows exactly when he will meet the devil.


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## min0 lee (Nov 30, 2005)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> I think the death penalty should be invoked for reposts.


3 times.


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## GFR (Nov 30, 2005)

He is an innocent victim of our racist justice system, so the right thing to do is feed him to Lions on national TV


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## min0 lee (Nov 30, 2005)

> He has written nine children's books and speaking out against gang violence


OK, example..... If I was to kill BigDyl and write some kids books can I get away with it? That's just an example.....


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## min0 lee (Nov 30, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> He is an innocent victim of our racist justice system, so the right thing to do is feed him to Lions on national TV


Now that's must see TV.


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## dougnukem (Nov 30, 2005)

Fry his ass!!!!


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## dougnukem (Nov 30, 2005)

Time to ride the lightning, Tookie!!


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## Diakonos (Nov 30, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time!!!
> 
> He carried out his message from jail -



Hey Monkey Man,

He *is* doing the time.  And he will continue to do it for the rest of his life  

Nobody is suggesting that the man be set free.  It's a question of whether or not his life should be spared.


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## min0 lee (Nov 30, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> Hey Monkey Man,
> 
> He *is* doing the time.  And he will continue to do it for the rest of his life
> 
> Nobody is suggesting that the man be set free.  It's a question of whether or not his life should be spared.


Ask the victims kids and parents, ask the families and neighborhoods destroyed by the bloods and crips.


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## GFR (Nov 30, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> Hey Monkey Man,
> 
> He *is* doing the time.  And he will continue to do it for the rest of his life
> 
> Nobody is suggesting that the man be set free.  It's a question of whether or not his life should be spared.


I'm with the old Testament on this one: an eye for an eye.
Kill the coward and let Jesus deal with him


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## silencer (Nov 30, 2005)

I voted no, But even if he was granted Clemency, its not exactly a life I would want to lead. Being locked up in shitty conditions for the rest of your life CONGRADULATIONS. I agree with the the idea of "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" so therefore I voted no, but I mean ...common, It's shit either way.


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## BigDyl (Nov 30, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> OK, example..... If I was to kill BigDyl and write some kids books can I get away with it? That's just an example.....


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## min0 lee (Nov 30, 2005)

BigDyl said:
			
		

>


Keep eating your proteins, once I slay you like a buffalo I will eat you.


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## Super Hulk (Nov 30, 2005)

"tookie" should be given a "cookie" and milk


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## themamasan (Nov 30, 2005)

He should die.  If not, then we continue to pay for his housing and food and also send a message to all the other criminals that you may kill people now, repent later and live a life on other people's paychecks.


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## bigss75 (Nov 30, 2005)

Yeah I heard that every max security inmate costs like 80 grand a year to hold.


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## Diakonos (Dec 1, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> I'm with the old Testament on this one: an eye for an eye.
> Kill the coward and let Jesus deal with him



Do you follow all the laws of the Old Testament (there were over six hundred of them you know)?  Or do you just pick and choose which Laws you want to live by?


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## musclepump (Dec 1, 2005)

No mercy.


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## NeilPearson (Dec 1, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> Do you follow all the laws of the Old Testament (there were over six hundred of them you know)?  Or do you just pick and choose which Laws you want to live by?



He never claimed to follow the old testament.  He just said he agreed with the old testament on this one... that is a lot different than following it.

Oh and yeah I think he should die.  In fact they should round up all those little gang bangers and kill them all.


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## min0 lee (Dec 1, 2005)

Well, it's looks like everyone here wants the execution to go through.. What do you think Diakonos?


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## Diakonos (Dec 1, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> Well, it's looks like everyone here wants the execution to go through.. What do you think Diakonos?



Here is my take on it.

First of all, I am completely against the death penalty for a couple of reasons; the first one being that the death penalty is racist.  African Americans make of 12% of the population, yet 42% of death row inmates.  Secondly, the death penalty does not deter crime.  It does however punish the poor, and in some cases condemn the innocent to die.  On top of all that, it???s just cruel and unusual punishment.  

I???m not saying that Tookie Williams is guiltless.  I???m not even saying that he shouldn???t be punished for the crimes he committed (and by the way, his LIFE sentence with no chance for parole seems like punishment to me).  But this is the bottom line.  Killing Stanley Williams isn???t going to bring the people he murdered back to life.  But keeping him alive may allow him the opportunity to continue steer inner city youth away from gang violence.  It???s a problem, I might add, that he helped to create.  So it only seems fitting that he spends the rest of his life trying to eradicate gang violence.  He can???t do that from a grave.  

Just my opinion.


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## GFR (Dec 1, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> Do you follow all the laws of the Old Testament (there were over six hundred of them you know)?  Or do you just pick and choose which Laws you want to live by?


No I do not follow the Old Testament .
I do think their are some good teachings in it and that one fits this discussion well......cant think of one Old Testament law that conflicts with it, can you??


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## Tier (Dec 1, 2005)

Ahh you're opening up that can of worms again. It's not that it's racist it's that there are more poor black people in heavily populated areas, poor people do dumb desperate shit.

Of course everybody wants to be a "thug" now too because the radio told them it's cool.


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## GFR (Dec 1, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> Here is my take on it.
> 
> First of all, I am completely against the death penalty for a couple of reasons; the first one being that the death penalty is racist.  African Americans make of* 12% of the population, yet 42% of death row inmates.*  Secondly, the death penalty does not deter crime.  It does however punish the poor, and in some cases condemn the innocent to die.  On top of all that, it???s just cruel and unusual punishment.
> 
> ...


*I like how you misslead people with improper facts....or as I like to call it lies.*
http://www.doc.state.nc.us/r&p/abstract/FY19596/FILE18.HTM
Black offenders account for almost two thirds of the total year-end prison population (65.4%). Almost one third are white offenders (31.2%), and the remaining three percent are other races.

    * 9,644 (31.2%) White.

    * *20,189 (65.4%) Black.*

    * 637 (2.1%) Indian.

    * 38 (0.1%) Oriental

    * 325 (1.1%) Other

    * 43 (0.1%) Not Reported


U.S. incarceration rates by race, June 30, 2004:

    * Whites: 393 per 100,000
    * Latinos: 957 per 100,000
    * Blacks: 2,531 per 100,000
Look at just the males by race, and the incarceration rates become even more frightening, June 30, 2004:

    * White males: 717 per 100,000
    * Latino males: 1,717 per 100,000
    ** Black males: 4,919 per 100,000*
http://www.prisonsucks.com/


*So you have 12% of the population committing 65.4% of the crime.....*


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## Tier (Dec 1, 2005)

not the crime necessarily, just the crime that gets you in jail


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## dougnukem (Dec 1, 2005)

Ah, but the legal system is racist too, didn't you know?  Hey, guess what?  Us military are racist as well, I here we only try to recruit poor black males in the ages of 16-25.  Racism is a cop-out in any discussion.
True Story


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## dougnukem (Dec 1, 2005)

My vote for him getting it has nothing to do with his race, but instead with his crime.  I feel there should be an express lane for those on death row.  Why waste all these taxpayers' dollars on someone who has been sentenced to die?  They could use this money for the people who have been unfortunate in life and live impoverished and poor, not by choice.


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## lnvanry (Dec 1, 2005)

Tier said:
			
		

> not the crime necessarily, just the crime that gets you in jail


 They very few black people know the ins and outs of the legal system and are able to afford the "justice" at the same time...Cochrane was an exception to this trend.


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## min0 lee (Dec 1, 2005)

This should not be a black or white issue.


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## dougnukem (Dec 1, 2005)

Exactly!


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## Nate K (Dec 1, 2005)

I believe he should not be killed.  It comes down to your view on the death sentence in general.  Some people want the "evil-doers"(Pres. Bush) to die because of what they did.  Kill em....hes a bad man, kill em, screw tha kids books, kill em.
Some people believe in not killing people, regardless of what they did.
Good thing I live in Texas, the mecca of the death penalty.


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## BigDyl (Dec 1, 2005)

I wonder what these kids books are like...  


"Once upon a time there were three little pigs...

The three pigs were just doing there job.

but they made a big mistake,

when they tried to pin some shit on me I didn't do...

SO I PULLED OUT THE MAC 10 AND MADE EM' SQUEAL!"


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## dougnukem (Dec 1, 2005)

"See Dick and Jane.  
See Dick is Jane's pimp.
Jane is a crack-whore working her debt to Dick off on the street.
Jane doesn't really like Dick, but she is addicted to what Dick gives her.
Dick is not nice to Jane.  
He only gives her what she wants when he wasnt to give it to her.
Jane meets Peter.
Jane likes Peter.
Peter likes Jane.
Peter doesn't like Dick so he puts a cap in his a**.
Now Peter and Jane can be together forever.
The End


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## Diakonos (Dec 1, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> *I like how you misslead people with improper facts....or as I like to call it lies.*...
> 
> *So you have 12% of the population committing 65.4% of the crime.....*





> At the end of 2004, the Justice Department had 1,390 Blacks on death row (compared to 1,851 Whites). While sixteen of the inmates are black women, black males are six (6%) percent of the nation's population but are 42% of the nation's death row inmates.


http://www.blackelectorate.com/articles.asp?ID=1514




> Although African Americans make up 12% of the population, they account for 42% of current death row inmates


http://www.ncadp.org/fact_sheet2.html




> In Maryland, Lt. Gov. Kathleen Kennedy Townsend has called for a moratorium on executions. Although 28 percent population of Maryland's population is black, blacks comprise 70 percent of the state's death-row population. In Texas, the ratio is even more disproportionate -- 11.5 percent of the state's population is black, yet blacks make up 42 percent of the death row population.


http://www.coadp.org/thepublications/pub-2002-5-Texas.html




> The number of white inmates on death row (45%) slightly exceeds the number of black inmates (42%), but these numbers are way out of proportion with the population. The issue is not who commits more crime. A study in Philadelphia showed that when black and white defendants were convicted of comparable crimes, black defendants were 38% more likely to receive the death penalty.


http://progressivewritersbloc.com/DC/DeathPenalty.htm


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## GFR (Dec 1, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> http://www.blackelectorate.com/articles.asp?ID=1514
> 
> .
> http://www.ncadp.org/fact_sheet2.html
> ...


*Your stats prove that the system is racist against whites when it comes to capital punishment.*

*At the end of 2004, the Justice Department had 1,390 Blacks on death row (compared to 1,851 Whites). While sixteen of the inmates are black women, black males are six (6%) percent of the nation's population but are 42% of the nation's death row inmates.*

You have more whites on death row.....and twice as many blacks in prison yet they are killing the whites more than 3x as much.........*the system is anti white!!!*


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## min0 lee (Dec 1, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> This should not be a black or white issue.


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## dougnukem (Dec 1, 2005)

So...we should be more sympathetic to prisoners because there are more black prisoners per black citizens as opposed to white prisoners per white citizens? 
Like I said, kill 'em all.  Black, white, whatever, if they are on Death Row, lets take care of business.  I mean this is a society that expects everything now, and can't wait or have the patience to wait, right?  Look how many people expect immediate results in Iraq, perfect example.  So I say, give them what they want, express lane Death Row.  Texas is looking to go that route, who better to kick things off?


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## min0 lee (Dec 1, 2005)

The human race needs an enema!


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## dougnukem (Dec 1, 2005)

An M&M?


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## BigDyl (Dec 1, 2005)

*"...and the wolf said "I'll huff and puff and smoke this joint out..."

The three pigs weren't about to let the wolf smoke there last ounce, so they cocked their desert eagles..."*


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## dougnukem (Dec 1, 2005)

Desert Eagles?  Do you know the street value of those?  Much too expensive for your typical street pigs.  Maybe some glocks.


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## Nate K (Dec 1, 2005)

dougnukem said:
			
		

> So...we should be more sympathetic to prisoners because there are more black prisoners per black citizens as opposed to white prisoners per white citizens?
> Like I said, kill 'em all. Black, white, whatever, if they are on Death Row, lets take care of business. I mean this is a society that expects everything now, and can't wait or have the patience to wait, right? Look how many people expect immediate results in Iraq, perfect example. So I say, give them what they want, express lane Death Row. Texas is looking to go that route, who better to kick things off?


*"Thoughts of dougnukem"*
Yeah, kill em all.  I wish they still did the electric shockey thing.  They get away to easy with the shots.   Then we won't have to spend money on jails and bad people.  Then everything will be perfect because all the bad people will be gone, damn darkies.   They will all burn in hell , unlike us good people that don't kill.  Like I said KILL EM ALL.  Yeah.....then I'll be just like duke nukem.  

SOrry.....I got a little carried away


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## Nate K (Dec 1, 2005)

Alright....no disrespect.
It's just that your previous statement disturbed me.  I guess we just have different views on how we should try and "save some tax dollars to put towards Helping the part of society that Needs it."


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## god hand (Dec 1, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> On top of all that, it???s just cruel and unusual punishment.


O rly? You must havent read about the history of punishment for crimes. 


When was the last time u heard about someone getting the Brazen Bull?


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## dougnukem (Dec 1, 2005)

It's okay.  My statement was in response to all the comments about our government being racist.  I just feel that w, as a society, spend to much time,money, and effort on these people when it could be used in other places of society.  There are people out there who, want and need help, and something should be done about it.  Some think that we waste our money on war, but I've seen what we're doing over here, and believe me, it's a good thing.  I would post pics, but due to OPSEC, I cannot.


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## GFR (Dec 1, 2005)

dougnukem said:
			
		

> It's okay.  My statement was in response to all the comments about our government being racist.  I just feel that w, as a society, spend to much time,money, and effort on these people when it could be used in other places of society.  There are people out there who, want and need help, and something should be done about it.  Some think that we waste our money on war, but I've seen what we're doing over here, and believe me, it's a good thing.  I would post pics, but due to OPSEC, I cannot.


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## dougnukem (Dec 1, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

>



 I know, I know.  Gotta follow the rules, man.  Or else, I'd be one of those prisoners we've been talking about.


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## BigDyl (Dec 1, 2005)

dougnukem said:
			
		

> I know, I know.  Gotta follow the rules, man.  Or else, I'd be one of those prisoners we've been talking about.




Considering you're being monitored 24/7 on the net, you can't even voice your "real" opinion anyways...


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## dougnukem (Dec 1, 2005)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> Considering you're being monitored 24/7 on the net, you can't even voice your "real" opinion anyways...



That doesn't worry me.  Believe me, I've had my fair share of reprimands for "voicing" my opinions.  There's a reason I'm still an E-5 after almost 10 years.


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## Big Smoothy (Dec 1, 2005)

Hang the loser.

And a lot of other scum, too.


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## ALBOB (Dec 2, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> Since then, Williams has turned his life around.  He has written nine children's books and speaking out against gang violence and, he has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize each year since 2001.



All this while still running the Crips from inside the Big House.  Yeah, he's really turned his life around.   


(Truth in advertising:  This is not a proven fact, but is widely reported as being more truth than fiction.  The children's books are a PR stunt to cover his still active gang affiliation.)


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## Diakonos (Dec 2, 2005)

god hand said:
			
		

> O rly? You must havent read about the history of punishment for crimes.
> 
> 
> When was the last time u heard about someone getting the Brazen Bull?



The Brazen What?   

Care to elaborate?


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## P-funk (Dec 2, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> Here is my take on it.
> 
> First of all, I am completely against the death penalty for a couple of reasons; the first one being that the death penalty is racist.  African Americans make of 12% of the population, yet 42% of death row inmates.  Secondly, the death penalty does not deter crime.  It does however punish the poor, and in some cases condemn the innocent to die.  On top of all that, it???s just cruel and unusual punishment.
> 
> ...





How is it racist?  They commited the crime.  I don't see what that has to do with anything.  Black, white, yellow, green, if you commit the crime you pay for it.  If more black people commit crimes that are worthy of the death penalty then any other race that is their fucking problem.

Just my opinion.


As far as Stanley Williams goes, I agree with MonkeyMan, fuck him!  He did it and while killing him wont bring those that he murdered back he still deserves to pay with his life.  The guy is a piece of shit scum bag and deserves what he gets.


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## ALBOB (Dec 2, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> As far as Stanley Williams goes, I agree with MonkeyMan, fuck him!  He did it and while killing him wont bring those that he murdered back he still deserves to pay with his life.  The guy is a piece of shit scum bag and deserves what he gets.



Damn dude, you gotta learn how to tell us how you REALLY feel.  Quit sugar coating things.


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## Diakonos (Dec 2, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> How is it racist?  They commited the crime.  I don't see what that has to do with anything.  Black, white, yellow, green, if you commit the crime you pay for it.  If more black people commit crimes that are worthy of the death penalty then any other race that is their fucking problem.



Surely you don???t believe (can???t believe) that more Black people commit crimes that are worthy of death than any other race.  
Maybe you didn???t catch this the first go around:



> The number of white inmates on death row (45%) slightly exceeds the number of black inmates (42%), *but these numbers are way out of proportion with the population.* The issue is not who commits more crime. A study in Philadelphia showed that when black and white defendants were convicted of comparable crimes, *black defendants were 38% more likely to receive the death penalty.*


http://progressivewritersbloc.com/DC/DeathPenalty.htm

No, blacks do not commit more crimes worthy of the death penalty.   They are just convicted at a higher rate.  

And, by the way, I???m not suggesting that anyone (black or white) who commits murder should receive any sympathy.  I think that such people should serve time in prison.  I just don???t believe in the death penalty given the racist manner in which it???s administered.


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## P-funk (Dec 2, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> Surely you don???t believe (can???t believe) that more Black people commit crimes that are worthy of death than any other race.
> Maybe you didn???t catch this the first go around:
> 
> 
> ...




yep, totally racist.  give me a break....if this were a white guy in stanley's position then black people and the NAACP would be running around saying "here it is...another white man getting a free pass."

I think if you kill somone you should be killed too.  Why should my tax dollars go to these guys living out their life in prison.  For all intenst and purposes, they are already dead!  They have no rights.  All they are doing is wasting space and wasting our money.


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## dougnukem (Dec 2, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> yep, totally racist.  give me a break....if this were a white guy in stanley's position then black people and the NAACP would be running around saying "here it is...another white man getting a free pass."
> 
> I think if you kill somone you should be killed too.  Why should my tax dollars go to these guys living out their life in prison.  For all intenst and purposes, they are already dead!  They have no rights.  All they are doing is wasting space and wasting our money.


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## Diakonos (Dec 2, 2005)

Ok, enough about the criminal justice system.  Now I???m going to get religious on you.  Here is the question I pose those of you who profess to be Christian.  If Jesus forgives/forgave this man, why can???t we?  How can those of us who are the undeserving benefactors of salvation deny it to anyone else?  For those of you who take the position that Tookey Williams can be/has been forgiven (and I realize that is a stretch in this forum), what does forgiveness look like?


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## dougnukem (Dec 2, 2005)

Oh he can be forgiven, but he was still found guilty and sentenced.  So after his execution, his soul will ascend to heaven.  At least that's how I feel.


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## P-funk (Dec 2, 2005)

how can you forgive a man that has still not apologized for his wrong doing?  Fuck that asshole.

I am not religious at all either so I am out on that debate.


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## dougnukem (Dec 2, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> how can you forgive a man that has still not apologized for his wrong doing?  Fuck that asshole.
> 
> I am not religious at all either so I am out on that debate.



You bring up a valid point.  If he hasn't apologized, and asked for his forgiveness, then I can't see forgiving him.  That has to come first, after all, the Bible does say that you have to ask to be forgiven in order to be forgiven.


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## Diakonos (Dec 2, 2005)

The Bible also says that Jesus died for the ungodly and those who had yet to repent for their sins.



> For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. Indeed, rarely will anyone die for a righteous person???though perhaps for a good person someone might actually dare to die. But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners  Christ died for us.
> *Romans 5:6-8*


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## GFR (Dec 2, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> Ok, enough about the criminal justice system.  Now I???m going to get religious on you.  Here is the question I pose those of you who profess to be Christian.  If Jesus forgives/forgave this man, why can???t we?  How can those of us who are the undeserving benefactors of salvation deny it to anyone else?  For those of you who take the position that Tookey Williams can be/has been forgiven (and I realize that is a stretch in this forum), what does forgiveness look like?


I have the answer..............Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
Fry the racist killer and let Jesus Judge him.


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## NeilPearson (Dec 2, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> http://www.blackelectorate.com/articles.asp?ID=1514



This is the biggest pile of racist shit I've ever seen.

Black Electorate
Black Pride
Black Power
Black Scholarships

These are apparantly all okay terms... funny thing is if I was to change Black to White in any of these, I would get chewed up and spit out for being a racist.  It's okay if it's black though.

Just the fact that you are making this a racial issue shows that you are prejudice.  When I first started reading the thread, I thought - this guy started a gang and killed some people... kill him.  The idea of whether or not he was black, white or latino never even crossed my mind.  I never had a mental picture of him being black and saying oh better kill him.  I just thought about the facts.  And that is really where it should end.  The fact that he is black should never have even been mentioned in this thread.

What about white serial killers?  If they start writing childrens books should they get off?  Of course not.

You are the reason racism still exists in this country.  Just by bringing up the race card and making it a big deal, you are forcing race to be noticed and forcing people to pay attention to race.  Racism will exist until people stop noticing and caring about race... but you obviously don't want that to happen.  

If you keep bringing up race issues (and blaming race on crap that has nothing to do with race), don't expect racism to ever go away.


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## Diakonos (Dec 2, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> This is the biggest pile of racist shit I've ever seen.
> 
> Black Electorate
> Black Pride
> ...


    
Hit dog, will holla.
You act as if racism will simply just go away or disappear if we "ignore it".  I???m not going to bury my head in the sand and act as if racism doesn???t exist, because it makes you feel uncomfortable.    Furthermore, if you look at any number of the post that I have made (which you are well able to do by clicking on my name under my avatar), you will see that this is the only thread discussion that have actually brought up the issue of race.  Why?  Because when it comes to the death penalty and the way that it is practiced, race is a factor. The reason racism still exist today is because people like you refuse to acknowledge it (and deal with it).


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## dougnukem (Dec 2, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> Hit dog, will holla.
> You act as if racism will simply just go away or disappear if we "ignore it".  I???m not going to bury my head in the sand and act as if racism doesn???t exist, because it makes you feel uncomfortable.    Furthermore, if you look at any number of the post that I have made (which you are well able to do by clicking on my name under my avatar), you will see that this is the only thread discussion that have actually brought up the issue of race.  Why?  Because when it comes to the death penalty and the way that it is practiced, race is a factor. The reason racism still exist today is because people like you refuse to acknowledge it (and deal with it).



How are we supposed to deal with it in your eyes?  Free all the guilty black prisoners?  Or just the ones on Death Row?  Noone denies it still exists, but people try to point out that it is a 2-way street that others aren't willing to except.


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## lnvanry (Dec 2, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> Hit dog, will holla.
> You act as if racism will simply just go away or disappear if we "ignore it". I???m not going to bury my head in the sand and act as if racism doesn???t exist, because it makes you feel uncomfortable. Furthermore, if you look at any number of the post that I have made (which you are well able to do by clicking on my name under my avatar), you will see that this is the only thread discussion that have actually brought up the issue of race. Why? Because when it comes to the death penalty and the way that it is practiced, race is a factor. The reason racism still exist today is because people like you refuse to acknowledge it (and deal with it).


 It has a lot to do w/ perspective....Obviously white people are not FORCED to deal w/ it.  I think certain cities and location have a lot to do w/ it too.

 From my experience most people have a logical grasp on the degree to which racism affects our community...the one's who don't are the naive whites who have never interacted in diverse settings, and blacks (who are usually from the burbs who like to think they aren't) the look for rasicm under a microscope and blow any minor discrepency into an act of inequality.

 I think the death penalty and the judicail brach is not prejudice or racist in a direct manner...it is biased by economic class.  if you can't afford top notch lawyers you are at a serious disadvantage; therefore, inherently blacks who are proportionally more poor than whites sit at a disadvantage....indirectly


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## Diakonos (Dec 2, 2005)

dougnukem said:
			
		

> How are we supposed to deal with it in your eyes?  Free all the guilty black prisoners?  Or just the ones on Death Row?  Noone denies it still exists, but people try to point out that it is a 2-way street that others aren't willing to except.



At no point and time did I ever suggest that Tookey Williams (or any other guilty prisoner on death row for that matter) should be set free.  As a matter of fact, I clearly stated in an earlier post that Tookey should serve the remainder of his time in prison.


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## dougnukem (Dec 2, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> At no point and time did I ever suggest that Tookey Williams (or any other guilty prisoner on death row for that matter) should be set free.  As a matter of fact, I clearly stated in an earlier post that Tookey should serve the remainder of his time in prison.



I know, that's why my statements in the form of a question.  You could have said no, and that would have worked for me.


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## NeilPearson (Dec 2, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> Hit dog, will holla.
> You act as if racism will simply just go away or disappear if we "ignore it".  I???m not going to bury my head in the sand and act as if racism doesn???t exist, because it makes you feel uncomfortable.    Furthermore, if you look at any number of the post that I have made (which you are well able to do by clicking on my name under my avatar), you will see that this is the only thread discussion that have actually brought up the issue of race.  Why?  Because when it comes to the death penalty and the way that it is practiced, race is a factor. The reason racism still exist today is because people like you refuse to acknowledge it (and deal with it).



I know I never think about racism or when I meet someone I never think, "oh he's black" or "he's white"... I just meet people.  The only time racism ever crosses my mind or I ever see it is when minority groups try and get special rights. 

I am not saying ignore it... I am just saying don't create it where it doesn't exist.


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## min0 lee (Dec 9, 2005)

*Stop blurring the lines between maniac & martyr*



> Tonight in California, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is going to have a closed meeting with those trying to get Stanley (Tookie) Williams clemency and those in law enforcement who want Williams to meet his end on Tuesday.
> Williams, who was sentenced to death after being found guilty of murdering four people in 1979, has the dubious honor of being one of the founders of the vicious street gang, the Crips.
> 
> Still, Williams is being held up as an example of redemption because he has supposedly turned his life around. He has written children's books that speak out against gang violence. But the actor and writer Joseph Phillips discovered that the highest selling children's book written by Williams has *sold only 330 copies*. Not exactly a universal audience. *The murderer has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize five times. But almost anyone can nominate you.* That does not prove universal acknowledgment of importance.
> ...









NY Daily News Writer


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## Big Smoothy (Dec 9, 2005)

Although race and socio-economic status can be discussed when the topic regard prison, sentencing (crack vs. cocaine), and the death penalty, 

I think Mr. Williams should be executed.

I have seen the photos of his murdered victims.

The fact that he started a notorious street gang that later evolved to destroy entire communities is another reason for him to be executed.


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## Mudge (Dec 9, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> Secondly, the death penalty does not deter crime.  It does however punish the poor, and in some cases condemn the innocent to die.



It may not deter crime, who gives a shit? People who kill other people should not be allowed to continue doing so, by being set free to do it again (sometimes it happens).

Yes, being poor puts you on death row. 

I do however agree, its fucked that sometimes innocents are sent down the walk.


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## Big Smoothy (Dec 10, 2005)

I think it's a disgrace that people are even talking about this guy.

Nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize?

This is laughable.  

He's written a couple of books.  If they were so good and influential, how come no one has heard of them, by name?

It's a laugh.

Gassing this jerk-off is being too easy on him.

They ought to torture him first. 

I've seen the photos of the people he killed.

While they are at it, they should round up the rest of the gang banger, execute them too.


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## P-funk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> I think it's a disgrace that people are even talking about this guy.
> 
> Nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize?
> 
> ...





I agree.  He was a man that used his time on death row wisely.  Now it is time for him to pay the price for the crimes he commited.


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## min0 lee (Dec 10, 2005)

Was he a model citizen in prison?
Didn't the Crips flourish during his time in prison?
I can imagine how many people were shanked on his orders....


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## Steele20 (Dec 10, 2005)

If I were the Law, I would cut off this guys arms, legs, penis, tongue, take out his eyes, Torture him, and barely keep him alive, for as long as I could. Useless people who kill people (not out of self defense, or an accident like your car skids into another car, or something like that)  Deserve this. If we executed everybody who purposely hurt, raped, or killed people for no reason; Cut off the arms of people who Don't need to steal to live (like homeless people stealing food) this world would be a much better place to live. However, people believe in a magical dinosaur called good who pooped the world out of his ass, So there will always be a lot of rape, murder, and attacks because the most we can do is put a person on death row for 20 years then peacefully let him die. Else the people who believe in god would bitch about the rights of these murderer's and rapist.


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## min0 lee (Dec 10, 2005)

My  "Lawyer" spouse asked me to ask this question....


Is there solid prove that he actually did it, we are not talking about eyewitness testimoney. 
We are talking about DNA, gun powder....blah blah  blah.


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## GFR (Dec 10, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> My  "Lawyer" spouse asked me to ask this question....
> 
> 
> *Is there solid prove* that he actually did it, we are not talking about eyewitness testimoney.
> We are talking about DNA, gun powder....blah blah  blah.


jajaja


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## BigDyl (Dec 10, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> My  "Lawyer" spouse asked me to ask this question....
> 
> 
> Is there solid prove that he actually did it, we are not talking about eyewitness testimoney.
> We are talking about DNA, gun powder....blah blah  blah.




I got some "solid DNA proof" for her...


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## brogers (Dec 10, 2005)

Let the families of his victims decide.


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## min0 lee (Dec 10, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> jajaja


Proof.

Arggggg


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## Mudge (Dec 10, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> If Jesus forgives/forgave this man, why can???t we?  How can those of us who are the undeserving benefactors of salvation deny it to anyone else?



Who said murderers are forgiven? Read the 10 Commandments sometime.


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## Mudge (Dec 10, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> The Bible also says that Jesus died for the ungodly and those who had yet to repent for their sins.



And that has nothing to do with absolving sin of a murderer.


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## Big Smoothy (Dec 10, 2005)

I just read an interview where Tookie Williams stated that slavery was part of the reason he is in prison.

A reporter asked him to say the names of the 4 murdered people, and his counsel said it was a "racist" question.

Playing the "race card" was a poor decision by the defense. 

I think it has backfired.


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## DOMS (Dec 10, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> African Americans make of 12% of the population, yet 42% of death row inmates.


 
Which isn't that much of a mystery when you consider that they commit 56% of murders (2003).


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## Big Smoothy (Dec 10, 2005)

I do believe that when it comes to justice in the U.S. and/or recieving certain penalties that,

_money_ is now more important than _race._

Regardless of ethnicity, if someone can assemble a Dream Team of high-powered lawyers, hire experts, etc., they will get a better hand dealt to them. 

As for the percentage of blacks on death row being 42% when blacks compose 12% of the population.

Let's even the statistics out and put more _white_ kiddy fiddlers, habitual sex offenders, and torture-murderers on death row, and carry out the sentence, quick.


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## min0 lee (Dec 11, 2005)

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- A lawyer for convicted murderer Stanley Tookie Williams asked the state Supreme Court to stay his execution, saying the Crips gang co-founder should have been allowed to argue that someone else killed one of his four alleged victims.

Attorney Verna Wefald filed a petition Saturday challenging the validity of the four convictions and death sentences given in 1981 to Williams, who is scheduled to die Tuesday at San Quentin State Prison. She also filed an emergency request seeking a stay, the Los Angeles Times reported.

Williams' lawyers also have asked Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger to grant clemency, saying Williams has redeemed himself as shown by his books urging children not to join gangs. Schwarzenegger's office said Saturday the governor had not made a decision.

Williams was convicted of killing a man during a robbery in February 1979 and of murdering a couple and their daughter at a South Los Angeles motel in March 1979.

Williams denies committing the murders but has apologized for co-founding the Crips, the gang blamed for numerous murders in Los Angeles and beyond.

Wefald's petition argues that prosecutors failed to disclose at trial that witness Alfred Coward was not a U.S. citizen and had a violent criminal history, depriving Williams of the opportunity to argue Coward was the killer in the February 1979 robbery.

Coward is now in prison in Canada for killing a man during a robbery.

*"All of the witnesses who implicated Williams were criminals who were given significant incentives to testify against him and ongoing benefits for their testimony," Wefald wrote.

"This type of testimony is the leading cause of wrongful convictions in murder and capital cases in the United States," she wrote, citing a study from Northwestern University Law School's Center on Wrongful Convictions.*Wefald declined to comment Saturday night.

The California Supreme Court, a federal court judge in Los Angeles, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals and the U.S. Supreme Court have all upheld Williams' convictions.


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## ihateschoolmt (Dec 11, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> First of all, I am completely against the death penalty for a couple of reasons; the first one being that the death penalty is racist.


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## Steele20 (Dec 11, 2005)

ihateschoolmt said:
			
		

>



Fubu = Farmers Use to Beat Us?


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## Steele20 (Dec 11, 2005)

btw, im just kidding


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## Tough Old Man (Dec 11, 2005)

Bring his head on my platter for Xmas.


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## Big Smoothy (Dec 12, 2005)

_Excerpt from article_



			
				min0 lee said:
			
		

> *"All of the witnesses who implicated Williams were criminals who were given significant incentives to testify against him and ongoing benefits for their testimony," Wefald wrote.
> 
> "This type of testimony is the leading cause of wrongful convictions in murder and capital cases in the United States," she wrote, citing a study from Northwestern University Law School's Center on Wrongful Convictions.*Wefald declined to comment Saturday night.
> 
> The California Supreme Court, a federal court judge in Los Angeles, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals and the U.S. Supreme Court have all upheld Williams' convictions.



Yes, many of the witnesses naming Williams to this crime were criminals, and people with past convictions.

This is VERY COMMON is criminal defense trials.  

These people hang out together. The live together.

They commit crimes together.


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## Diakonos (Dec 12, 2005)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> _Excerpt from article_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So are wrongful convictions.


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## NeilPearson (Dec 12, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> So are wrongful convictions.



So what... if you hang out with low life criminals that will frame you to save their own ass, you are stupid and deserve the punishment anyway.


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## Witmaster (Dec 12, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> So are wrongful convictions.


   HOLY SHIT!!!  

Are you implying that good ole' "Tookie" is innocent as the wind-driven snow?


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## NeilPearson (Dec 12, 2005)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> HOLY SHIT!!!
> 
> Are you implying that good ole' "Tookie" is innocent as the wind-driven snow?



Exactly.  I don't care if he killed those 4 people or just 1 or 2 of them.  Actually I don't care if he was innocent on all 4 counts.  He still deserves to fry just based on all the other illegal activities he has been involved in (and organized).

I can see a single murder being a wrongful conviction if the person had a clean record but come on.... 4?  It is pretty hard to frame 4, not to mention all the other illegal crap.  There is just no way you can argue it - Tookie is no boy scout.

Screw him.


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## lnvanry (Dec 12, 2005)

Well its *OFFICIAL....*he will be executed tonight


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## NeilPearson (Dec 12, 2005)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> Well its *OFFICIAL....*he will be executed tonight


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## dougnukem (Dec 12, 2005)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> Well its *OFFICIAL....*he will be executed tonight


 
Now this discussion is not necessary anymore.


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## Steele20 (Dec 12, 2005)

Hope it's painful... But it wont be =\


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## Pepper (Dec 12, 2005)

dougnukem said:
			
		

> Oh he can be forgiven, but he was still found guilty and sentenced. So after his execution, his soul will ascend to heaven. At least that's how I feel.


 
Excellent.

Yes, there are two issues here...Forgiveness and Punishment.

We should forgive him. However, forgiving someone does not in any way impact that the consequences for his/her actions.

He forfeited his right to mercy when he killed four people. If he has turned his life around like he says, he knows that.


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## god hand (Dec 12, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> The Brazen What?
> 
> Care to elaborate?


The Romans used to excute people by placing them in this bull like object and then roasting their ass

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull


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## BigDyl (Dec 12, 2005)

god hand said:
			
		

> The Romans used to excute people by placing them in this bull like object and then roasting their ass
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull




That'd be a cool way to die.


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## god hand (Dec 12, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> So are wrongful convictions.


Dude people like u is the reason the country is a shit hole now!  We shouldnt be arguing should he die, WE SHOULD BE ARGUING WHY ISNT HE DID YET!Damn people like you piss me off!

 So I guess we should forgive him






And him 







I meant so what they killed 30 million people not including deaths from the wars. The past is the past right? Damn your stupid! I think excutions should increase 10,000%! I sware there will be less crime.

Somebody needs to bring back this!


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## Diakonos (Dec 12, 2005)

Yeah god_hand that's it, Tookie Williams is on the same level as Hitler or Stalin.
  

For those of you who were hoping for Tookie Williams to be denied clemency (which seems to be everyone who has posted to this thread), congratulations.  Tookie is going to ???ride the lightning.???  But before you celebrate, marinate on this for a moment.  Because of all of the publicity that was generated over this man, you???d better believe that killing him will make him a martyr.  He???ll become another slain hero to ghetto youth (T-shirt sales with his image on them will go through the roof), and a poster child for those who are opposed to the death penalty.  So you see, killing this man is only going to make him more of an icon than he already is.  

As for me, I'm finished with this thread.


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## god hand (Dec 12, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> Yeah god_hand that's it, Tookie Williams is on the same level as Hitler or Stalin.
> 
> 
> For those of you who were hoping for Tookie Williams to be denied clemency (which seems to be everyone who has posted to this thread), congratulations.  Tookie is going to ???ride the lightning.???  But before you celebrate, marinate on this for a moment.  Because of all of the publicity that was generated over this man, you???d better believe that killing him will make him a martyr.  He???ll become another slain hero to ghetto youth (T-shirt sales with his image on them will go through the roof), and a poster child for those who are opposed to the death penalty.  So you see, killing this man is only going to make him more of an icon than he already is.
> ...




Aint nobody puttin this n***a on any shirts. I wonder how many crips or bloods youve run into?


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## maniclion (Dec 12, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> For those of you who were hoping for Tookie Williams to be denied clemency (which seems to be everyone who has posted to this thread), congratulations. Tookie is going to ???ride the lightning.??? But before you celebrate, marinate on this for a moment. Because of all of the publicity that was generated over this man, you???d better believe that killing him will make him a martyr. He???ll become another slain hero to ghetto youth (T-shirt sales with his image on them will go through the roof), and a poster child for those who are opposed to the death penalty. So you see, killing this man is only going to make him more of an icon than he already is.



Seems to me you're one of those black fella's who has to deify every black man that gets his name well known to the public, it doesn't matter who or what they stand for just that they made a name for themselves.  In this day and age with all of the positive Black role models I don't see why your type still holds onto this practice.  You were the same one trying to get us excited about the 50 Cent movie that bombed.  I was watching Boondocks last night and it reminded me of this, but prior to that I was watching a documentary on Black performers who were Blacklisted during the Red Scare of Mcarthyism and prior to that I watched a documentary on Blaxploitation films.  There was a time when bolstering any black person with a public voice was a good tactic but now it's better judgement to only bolster the names of those who actually contribute to the community their whole lives and not those trying to turn the tides of a wave they started.


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## god hand (Dec 12, 2005)

maniclion said:
			
		

> Seems to me you're one of those black fella's who has to deify every black man that gets his name well known to the public, it doesn't matter who or what they stand for just that they made a name for themselves.  In this day and age with all of the positive Black role models I don't see why your type still holds onto this practice.  You were the same one trying to get us excited about the 50 Cent movie that bombed.  I was watching Boondocks last night and it reminded me of this, but prior to that I was watching a documentary on Black performers who were Blacklisted during the Red Scare of Mcarthyism and prior to that I watched a documentary on Blaxploitation films.  There was a time when bolstering any black person with a public voice was a good tactic but now it's better judgement to only bolster the names of those who actually contribute to the community their whole lives and not those trying to turn the tides of a wave they started.


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## dougnukem (Dec 12, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> Yeah god_hand that's it, Tookie Williams is on the same level as Hitler or Stalin.
> 
> 
> For those of you who were hoping for Tookie Williams to be denied clemency (which seems to be everyone who has posted to this thread), congratulations.  Tookie is going to ???ride the lightning.???  But before you celebrate, marinate on this for a moment.  Because of all of the publicity that was generated over this man, you???d better believe that killing him will make him a martyr.  He???ll become another slain hero to ghetto youth (T-shirt sales with his image on them will go through the roof), and a poster child for those who are opposed to the death penalty.  So you see, killing this man is only going to make him more of an icon than he already is.
> ...



Icon?  For who, celebrities?  Who cares what they think.  They shouldn't have been sticking there nose in this business anyways.  I grow weary of celebrities who use their fame as if it makes them better then us or have some kind of pull because of it.  It's not so much that I'm glad that he is going to die, but I don't feel he is any better then the other Death Row inmates that you don't hear about.  I'm sorry, writing children's books doesn't make it okay to kill 4 people and get away with it.


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## Witmaster (Dec 12, 2005)

Diakonos said:
			
		

> Yeah god_hand that's it, Tookie Williams is on the same level as Hitler or Stalin.
> 
> 
> For those of you who were hoping for Tookie Williams to be denied clemency (which seems to be everyone who has posted to this thread), congratulations. Tookie is going to ???ride the lightning.???


He's getting Lethal Injection.  Hardly a death of the same calliber as "Ole' Sparky".  Read this to learn more about Lethal Injection.



			
				Diakonos said:
			
		

> But before you celebrate, marinate on this for a moment. Because of all of the publicity that was generated over this man, you???d better believe that killing him will make him a martyr.


Perhaps to some he will become a martyr but not EVERY pro-death-penalty supporter will be "celebrating" his death.  Sure, some will.  But to the resounding majority, "Tookie" Williams death will serve justice for the crimes he was convicted of.  Make all the T-Shirts you like.



			
				Diakonos said:
			
		

> He???ll become another slain hero to ghetto youth (T-shirt sales with his image on them will go through the roof), and a poster child for those who are opposed to the death penalty. So you see, killing this man is only going to make him more of an icon than he already is.


Well, if this is the case then perhaps his passing will have a profound and positive impact on all those would-be gang-bangers out there that Tookie had a firm hand in creating?  Perhaps if Tookie is man enough (and he is) to face his punishment and be held accountable for his actions, his message of crimes and consequence will have an even more profound impact on today's "ghetto Youth"


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## Flex (Dec 12, 2005)

This is a tough issue.

When this guy was gangbangin' as leader of the Crips, making money/getting high/commiting crimes, you think he stopped for 2 seconds and thought to himself "maybe I shouldn't do this?" No.

That's the problem with people. They think AFTER they do stupid shit. They want to be forgiven AFTER they commit crimes. Why not stop and think BEFORE you do stupid shit. So now he's going to pay for it. 

Does he deserve death, only God can judge. But apparently the US legal system beleives they can as well. 

Regardless...
Whether a king, 
or street sweeper,
everyone dances with the Reaper


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## min0 lee (Dec 12, 2005)

> Regardless...
> Whether a king,
> or street sweeper,
> everyone dances with the Reaper



Nice..........


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## DOMS (Dec 12, 2005)

That quote is from Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey.


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## 1xDeatHsHeaDx3 (Dec 17, 2005)

Steele20 said:
			
		

> Hope it's painful... But it wont be =\



Let me ease your mind, I've heard it's painful, but due to the muscle relaxers the body won't flail around, we wouldn't want the witnesses to feel ill or anything.


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## P-funk (Dec 17, 2005)

1xDeatHsHeaDx3 said:
			
		

> Let me ease your mind, I've heard it's painful, but due to the muscle relaxers the body won't flail around, we wouldn't want the witnesses to feel ill or anything.




how did you hear it was painful?  You know someone that got leathal injection and lived to tell about it?


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