# squatting....



## kinkery (May 11, 2007)

i read somewhere to place a block or a plate under our heels when you squat


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## Witchblade (May 11, 2007)

If you need it, go ahead.

On a sidenote: how can you improve your ROM in the squat? What to stretch specifically etc.


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## DOMS (May 11, 2007)

Witchblade said:


> If you need it, go ahead.
> 
> On a sidenote: how can you improve your ROM in the squat? What to stretch specifically etc.



I simply tried to go deeper each workout.  It takes a while, but it works.  Now I go ATG.


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## DontStop (May 11, 2007)

I used to put a block underneath because i found that i worked my glutes more from that angle. Others put a block near the front of their foot to increase the use of the quad
I dont use a block anymore because i've found without it i increase my balance and feel it more everywhere, including now my lower back


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## danny81 (May 11, 2007)

how low should yo go? should my ass literaly touch the gground?  also is it true that your knees should never go over your toes.


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## DOMS (May 11, 2007)

Go until your hamstrings rest against your calves.

Good luck trying to touch your ass to the ground though.  Not every has the...genetics...for that...


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## fufu (May 11, 2007)

Witchblade said:


> If you need it, go ahead.
> 
> On a sidenote: how can you improve your ROM in the squat? What to stretch specifically etc.



Along with a good warm up 

stretch your glutes, hamstrings, hip flexors, ankles and upper back.


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## KelJu (May 11, 2007)

kinkery said:


> i read somewhere to place a block or a plate under our heels when you squat



I had to do it for about a year because of a repeated ankle injury from football. My ankles wouldn't move past 90 degrees, but a year of lifting hard and stretching before workouts gave me enough flexibility to go past parallel without bringing my heels off of the ground. 

Also, spreading your legs seem to train more glutes and hips for power, while shoulder width feet seem to build quads and back more for bodybuilding.


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## CowPimp (May 11, 2007)

It's a crutch.  It's okay to start doing that, but you need to active address the issue that is forcing you to rely on that heel elevation.  This is usually an issue of ankle mobility.  

I don't like elevating the heels because I feel it reinforces anterior weight bearing, which is the last thing most people need.  However, I am a realist, and understand that some (Some = a crapload) people need to progress into a full ROM squat.


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## danny81 (May 11, 2007)

wait isnt it bad to go down that low? thats why catchers dont go all the way down now asdays?


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## kinkery (May 11, 2007)

danny81 said:


> wait isnt it bad to go down that low? thats why catchers dont go all the way down now asdays?



no, its bad to go down 1/4 or 1/2 the way. either go all the way or dont even go.


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## danny81 (May 11, 2007)

o alright. and should you sit bak when squatting?


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## kinkery (May 11, 2007)

danny81 said:


> o alright. and should you sit bak when squatting?



just keep good form. dont round back and etc. also stay tight in the "pocket" when your ATG. dont bounce or etc.


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## CowPimp (May 12, 2007)

danny81 said:


> wait isnt it bad to go down that low? thats why catchers dont go all the way down now asdays?



When I say full ROM, I'm happy with a parallel depth squat (Femur parallel).  A lot of people have trouble with that.


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## zl214 (May 12, 2007)

Witchblade said:


> If you need it, go ahead.
> 
> On a sidenote: how can you improve your ROM in the squat? What to stretch specifically etc.




I am now able to go really low (ATG) on squats after doing box squating for a while.

I know box squating has a smaller ROM, but it seems to help me "sit into" a squat more (if that makes sense), therefore, going lower.

The other recommedation I want to make is snatch/overhead squats. they make you to keep your centre of mass lower and back more during the movement, and this can help you squat lower. but ont be too hasty, start with an empty bar and work on the technique.


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## MCx2 (May 12, 2007)

KelJu said:


> Also, spreading your legs seem to train more glutes and hips for power, while shoulder width feet seem to build quads and back more for bodybuilding.



Spreading my legs seemed to help me get deeper in the squat too. Over time I have been able to close the gap. That along with shoes with flat soles. 

I was squatting in running shoes and I couldn't for the life of me stay back on my heels, OR get to parallel without major knee discomfort. Got some Chucks, spread my legs a bit and I'm bellow parallel now.


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## danny81 (May 12, 2007)

o alright thanks


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## depaul (May 12, 2007)

Witchblade said:


> If you need it, go ahead.
> 
> On a sidenote: how can you improve your ROM in the squat? What to stretch specifically etc.



Doing wall squats (static hold for 2 minutes) really helped me get used to going all the way down, and may have given me some more strength in that position.


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## fUnc17 (May 12, 2007)

depaul said:


> Doing wall squats (static hold for 2 minutes) really helped me get used to going all the way down, and may have given me some more strength in that position.



Yes, wall squats are great. At different stances too. Just make sure your knees track your ankles and you stick your chest out. Also try moving around when your in the bottom position (rotationaly). It'll help your squat depth tremendously


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## VILBAUGH (May 14, 2007)

mastering the overhead squat will improve all squatting dramatically
CrossFit Exercises


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## Valias (May 14, 2007)

I use to train squats and deadlifts three times a week, i saw the greatest improvements ever - then i burned my backout and havn't squat heavy in 6 months or so. I've been working it back in and instead of extremely heavy reps where i go maybe parrallel i've been using maybe 190 pounds and practically sitting down with it, and yeah i feel it in my entire thigh and not just my quads. I like it this way as it feels like i'm doing more work in less time.


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## Duncans Donuts (May 14, 2007)

tight calves cause heel elevation.  as the angle of the hamstring changes as you squat, if you have inflexible calves, the calf pulls up the heel like a rope.


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## Duncans Donuts (May 14, 2007)

Quite honestly, go as deep as you can, and work on flexibility.  Not everbody can go further than parallel.  Which is fine, really.


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## VILBAUGH (May 15, 2007)

Valias said:


> I use to train squats and deadlifts three times a week, i saw the greatest improvements ever - then i burned my backout and havn't squat heavy in 6 months or so. I've been working it back in and instead of extremely heavy reps where i go maybe parrallel i've been using maybe 190 pounds and practically sitting down with it, and yeah i feel it in my entire thigh and not just my quads. I like it this way as it feels like i'm doing more work in less time.




I think your burn out may have been to over training. 
train smart, these movements are essential and should be the basis for all fitness. They should make you stronger not make you crippled.
The glutes are the biggest and most powerful muscle in the body...with proper form they should be fully engaged.


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## Rubes (May 15, 2007)

so going past parallel is good?


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## Double D (May 15, 2007)

Yes it is good, but I am in agreement with Duncan it you dont have to.

My flexibility was great for years. I took a 6 month period off and it seemed like my tendons and muscles said hey what the fuck are you doing? And decided to get super tight. I had to use the plate under my feet to start back about 6 years ago. But I constantly static stretched (before, yes I said before, and after workouts). Many people will say dont static stretch before and I would agree, unless you have some type of muscle imbalance or tightness that effects the lift itself.


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## Duncans Donuts (May 15, 2007)

Well the more you flex your knee joint, the more shearing force there will be.  So  one could make an argument that below parallel can have it's negative side.


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## Rubes (May 15, 2007)

im really felxible so going parallel is really easy to me so keep on going past that while squating then?


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## P-funk (May 15, 2007)

depends on how your pelvis looks when you are squatting down.

Some can squat down below parallel but they have a nasty ass posterior tilt, which really leaves the lower back in a compromised position.  That would be a mobility issue that needs to be addressed before progressing to a squat of that depth.

Long story short....Without seeing you squat....no one fucking knows.


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## kinkery (May 15, 2007)

yes ATG squat. 

There is no such thing as a "half" or "Quater" squat. if you cant do a full squat then you shouldn't be squatting IMO. So get down or get out


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## P-funk (May 15, 2007)

kinkery said:


> yes ATG squat.
> 
> There is no such thing as a "half" or "Quater" squat. if you cant do a full squat then you shouldn't be squatting IMO. So get down or get out



you have no idea what you are talking about.

Great quote:

"If you don't train people for a living then you have no business giving out training advice" -Keith Scott

Unless you have worked with people and understand how different bodies move and different people have differnet othopedic or biomechanical issues then you don't know jackshit.  The goal is to just getting there (in this case a deetp squat) it is HOW YOU GET THERE that matters.


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## Double D (May 15, 2007)

P-funk said:


> you have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> Great quote:
> 
> ...



I like those quotes and will have to keep those in mind.


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## Duncans Donuts (May 15, 2007)

kinkery said:


> yes ATG squat.
> 
> There is no such thing as a "half" or "Quater" squat. if you cant do a full squat then you shouldn't be squatting IMO. So get down or get out



I train 50-60 year old clients who would hurt themselves severely taking your advice.  This is why one size fits all advice is irrelevant.  People need to have exercise prescriptions, based on their current state of ability; including flexibility, mobility, strength, and so forth.


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## kinkery (May 15, 2007)

50-60yr old people should be retird anyway


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## Double D (May 15, 2007)

Most 50-60 year old people train for a better life. They train to sustain falls. They train to live longer. I have tried to help you a few times but with a comment like that, I dont even know what to say.


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## Duncans Donuts (May 15, 2007)

kinkery said:


> 50-60yr old people should be retird anyway



You should be banned for remarks like this.


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## P-funk (May 15, 2007)

you are a fucking moron.

I just looked at your journal.  I have had 50 and 60yr old people that out lift you.  go fuck yourself pussy.


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## kinkery (May 15, 2007)

P-funk said:


> you are a fucking moron.
> 
> I just looked at your journal.  I have had 50 and 60yr old people that out lift you.  go fuck yourself pussy.



show me a 60yr old that benches 315 and i'll belive you


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## P-funk (May 15, 2007)

you aren't benching 315....fuck, you aren't even squatting it!



kinkery said:


> Chest And Biceps  ballin workout-
> 
> Incline Press:
> 135 x 8
> ...





Anyway, in NYC there was a 64yr old guy that was a heavy bencher and he had done 335.  So fuck off you pussy.


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## kinkery (May 15, 2007)

P-funk said:


> you aren't benching 315....fuck, you aren't even squatting it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



and you'd know this how? i can squat 345 ATG and bench 315.


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## P-funk (May 15, 2007)

yea, it looks like it from your journal entries!  keep up the hard work pussy.


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## P-funk (May 15, 2007)

kinkery said:


> today was Legs and abs. pretty intense
> 
> Squats (with heel lift, ATG, no lockout):
> 135 x 12
> ...




Looks like a rough session!


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## kinkery (May 15, 2007)

P-funk said:


> Looks like a rough session!



look like a rough and light session. i'm not good with high reps. i prefer lower reps. 5-6.  .


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## MCx2 (May 15, 2007)




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## soxmuscle (May 15, 2007)

That was the most ridiculous blow-up I've ever seen.


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## Duncans Donuts (May 15, 2007)

kinkery said:


> look like a rough and light session. i'm not good with high reps. i prefer lower reps. 5-6.  .



so wait, you have a full 250 percent improvement going from 10 reps (at 125) to  5 or 6 at 300+?

you are full of shit.  you are a pussy.


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## Stewart14 (May 16, 2007)

Duncans Donuts said:


> so wait, you have a full 250 percent improvement going from 10 reps (at 125) to 5 or 6 at 300+?
> 
> *you are full of shit. you are a pussy*.


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## Stewart14 (May 16, 2007)

P-funk said:


> depends on how your pelvis looks when you are squatting down.
> 
> Some can squat down below parallel but they have a nasty ass posterior tilt, which really leaves the lower back in a compromised position. That would be a mobility issue that needs to be addressed before progressing to a squat of that depth.
> 
> Long story short....Without seeing you squat....no one fucking knows.


 
Obviously like you said, without a picture you can't say 100%, but what kind of mobility issues should be addressed if I believe this is happening to me a bit?  What should I work on?


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## KelJu (May 16, 2007)

P-funk said:


> *"If you don't train people for a living then you have no business giving out training advice" -Keith Scott*



I think that quote is dumb. What if knowledgeable people's answer to every fitness question was "I'm not a trainer, so I can't give you advice"?

There aren't enough trainers to have time to answer every newb question in the fitness world. People on IM that aren't trainers give great advice to newbs everyday.

Just my opinion.


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## fufu (May 16, 2007)

KelJu said:


> I think that quote is dumb. What if knowledgeable people's answer to every fitness question was "I'm not a trainer, so I can't give you advice"?
> 
> There aren't enough trainers to have time to answer every newb question in the fitness world. People on IM that aren't trainers give great advice to newbs everyday.
> 
> Just my opinion.



I agree.

I'm tootin' my own horn, but I have given advice to people and really turned around their workouts for the better and got rid alot of their problems.


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## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

I think there is _some_ validity to the statement.  Anyone can read a book or other posts and gain knowledge and then dole that knowledge out on an internet forum.  It is a totally different thing to take that knowledge and start applying it to a variety of different people and populations (who are typically not as able as those that are on this forum looking for training advice).  I mean, I can read all about making a pizza and talk about how to cook it and give to different recipes but if i never do it, I probably am not going to be very good at making the pizza.  I can read about heart surgery and made learn a shit ton about it and maybe even be able to talk intelligently about it with some heart surgens...but, I can't go in and perform that surgery on other people.

Statements like "ATG is the only way to squat. If you can't do it you shouldn't squat."....confirms the above quote.  Clearly the individual has never worked with someone and wouldn't know how to reproduce results with various populations of people.


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## KelJu (May 16, 2007)

P-funk said:


> I think there is _some_ validity to the statement.  Anyone can read a book or other posts and gain knowledge and then dole that knowledge out on an internet forum.  It is a totally different thing to take that knowledge and start applying it to a variety of different people and populations (who are typically not as able as those that are on this forum looking for training advice).  I mean, I can read all about making a pizza and talk about how to cook it and give to different recipes but if i never do it, I probably am not going to be very good at making the pizza.  I can read about heart surgery and made learn a shit ton about it and maybe even be able to talk intelligently about it with some heart surgens...but, I can't go in and perform that surgery on other people.
> 
> Statements like "ATG is the only way to squat. If you can't do it you shouldn't squat."....confirms the above quote.  Clearly the individual has never worked with someone and wouldn't know how to reproduce results with various populations of people.





No doubt. The statement you were harping about was very ignorant. Hell, it took me over a year just to get to parallel, because of past injuries. If I had followed the advice of Kinkery, I would have given up squatting, and I would not be where I am now. 

Advice is just that...advice. Advice can be considered, followed, or disregarded. That is why it is the responsibility of the individual to become educated, so they can be the best they can be at what they are trying to do. The process of becoming educated is talking to other people to help put you on the path to learn for yourself. I think that is the essence of advice. 


Also, I am sure they are trainers out there that do not know shit about other people's bodies, and being a trainer in general.


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## fufu (May 16, 2007)

P-funk said:


> I think there is _some_ validity to the statement.  Anyone can read a book or other posts and gain knowledge and then dole that knowledge out on an internet forum.  It is a totally different thing to take that knowledge and start applying it to a variety of different people and populations (who are typically not as able as those that are on this forum looking for training advice).  I mean, I can read all about making a pizza and talk about how to cook it and give to different recipes but if i never do it, I probably am not going to be very good at making the pizza.  I can read about heart surgery and made learn a shit ton about it and maybe even be able to talk intelligently about it with some heart surgens...but, I can't go in and perform that surgery on other people.
> 
> Statements like "ATG is the only way to squat. If you can't do it you shouldn't squat."....confirms the above quote.  Clearly the individual has never worked with someone and wouldn't know how to reproduce results with various populations of people.




I see what you are saying, but I wouldn't say one single instance confirms that quote to everyone. I'll agree, to most people though. Definitely.

There is a big difference knowing when something works, and know _why_ it works. If you don't know why it works you can't apply it to a different kinds of people.

Hell, even "trainers" who train people for a living are dumb asses.


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## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

^^agree with both


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## ben16v (May 16, 2007)

would you people vary the ROM according to the weight?

ie on a light week concentrate on full squats ATG and the on a heavy week go to 90degrees?


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## Double D (May 16, 2007)

Stewart20 said:


> Obviously like you said, without a picture you can't say 100%, but what kind of mobility issues should be addressed if I believe this is happening to me a bit?  What should I work on?



Whats goin on Stew?

Are your feet internally rotating? 
Do you have a posterior tilt?
Are your heels coming off of the ground?

What exactly is going on? More than likely its a combination of tighness of a few muscles and maybe some weak muscles as well.


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## Double D (May 16, 2007)

ben16v said:


> would you people vary the ROM according to the weight?
> 
> ie on a light week concentrate on full squats ATG and the on a heavy week go to 90degrees?



You vary ROM according to the persons flexibility. If a persons felxibility only allows them to go 1/4 of the way then thats all they can do. You develop a flexibility program to correct it and theoretically you should be able to go lower with time.


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## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

if the person can only get a 1/4 squat I wouldn't have them put weight on their back.  I am pretty conservative with who is allowed to get under the bar and who isn't.  Work on mobility and other exercises for strengthening.  Remeber, when we limit ROM at one joint, we create stress at another.  Things have to move properly.


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## Double D (May 16, 2007)

You ever have them do wall squats?


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## Stewart14 (May 16, 2007)

Double D said:


> Whats goin on Stew?
> 
> Are your feet internally rotating?
> Do you have a posterior tilt?
> ...



Hey DD, goin ok,,,super busy with work and the baby lately, but I am getting by...you know about kids and work I am sure!

Anyway, I think what is happening when I squat is that I am getting than posterior tilt.  I think I definitely have one and now that I am noticing it more, I notice it is happening on my squatting, probably putting too much stress on my back than I should be.  

I usually turn my feet a little bit outwards, and I am able to keep my heels on the ground if my foot stance it about 1 1/2 times shoulder width or wider.

In practicing my form today without weight, I notice that when I start the movement, when I go to "sit back" it seems as if my pelvis tilts the split second before I decend.  Almost as if I can't go down without this slight hitch at the beginning.  Depth is not an issue, but like I said, I think my back is taking the brunt of things, and lately it HAS been bothering me a bit.

Does that help? Anyone got any ideas for correcting that?


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## Double D (May 16, 2007)

I know static stretching is frowned upon by many people but in a case like this where something is overly tight and wont allow you to do an exercise properly you need to stretch the following muscles out well:
External Obliques
Rectus Abdominis
Hamstrings

Your weak muscles are probably your gluteus max/med. 

Alot of times whenever something like this is present your using synergist muscles to compensate for the prime mover muscles. I would stretch out the 3 muscles I mentioned. 

I believe my book recommends doing a certain core work exercise and I believe it is bridges (but I cant remember).

I would assume it has alot to do with a weak core. So I would try to really strengthen the core up and stretch as often as felt needed. Personally I had a problem with my heels coming off the ground so I stretched and stretched for about 3 months and it took care of that.

Maybe P can chime in and help me out here.


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## Stewart14 (May 16, 2007)

Good stuff DD, I see you have been studying well .  On an unrelated note, I think I am going to be changing careers come this fall, I will be a stay at home dad, while mom goes back to work.  Mom is a teacher in NY and teachers in NY make a lot of $$ (all relative to what everything costs here I guess, but I digress).  In my time at home , I want to try to get a bunch of PT certs and then try to work at nights or something when she can watch the baby, I figure I will be home all day, really there is no excuse not to study and go for it.

Back to topic.  I knew about bridges, but I didn't know of anything else.  Plus, how can you make bridges a harder exercise to get more of an effect?  I mean, do you just do like 100s of them, or do you move on to something else?

I don't know if I have a weak core, I actually think it is kind of strong, I think I have always had this tilt, I think it just became more pronounced now that I am doing the exercises that would make it stand out.


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## Double D (May 16, 2007)

I think you would make a good trainer. You have a good mindset, and obviously you have always wanted to learn.

Bridges can also be off of a ball, 1-legged, marching bridges, etc....
On top of that I dont recall seeing to much core work in your journal. I would pick 2 core exercises one variation being a stabilization exercise like bridges or planks, and one variation of strength like cable crunches or decline plate crunches etc...

Again the stretching in my opinion is really key here. 

And I do know my book pretty well. But it is just one cert, and I know its going to take much more than just that to be a good trainer, thats why I ask guys like P, Duncan, PB, things all the time. I want to learn, learn, learn! Because clients arent going to come back unless they see results.


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## Stewart14 (May 16, 2007)

i am definitely going to do the stretching every night going forward, if I remember, ha.  the ones I got so far are the kneeling hip flexor stretch and a lower back stretch.  Based on what I have read and what I think about my own body, I would have to say I definitely have tight erectors and quads, and weak glutes and abs.  I know I need to do more ab work.  I might incorporate them into my nightly stretching routine.

I can do:
lower back stretch
hip flexor stretch
timed bridges
weighted decline crunches.

anything else, feel free to chime in.  

About how long would it take to really start noticing results from this, if I were to do this continuously every day?


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## Double D (May 16, 2007)

I would stretch out your adductors, hams, and really stretch out your midsetion. From what I know of you, your lower pull strength is much stronger than your lower push so try your best to even that out as much as possible.


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## Stewart14 (May 16, 2007)

Double D said:


> I would stretch out your adductors, hams, and really stretch out your midsetion. From what I know of you, your lower pull strength is much stronger than your lower push so try your best to even that out as much as possible.



midsection as in abdominals?  Why would that be?  I don't think they are the problem.


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## Double D (May 16, 2007)

If your tilting forward it may very well be your midsection is tight.


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## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

Stewart20 said:


> Hey DD, goin ok,,,super busy with work and the baby lately, but I am getting by...you know about kids and work I am sure!
> 
> Anyway, I think what is happening when I squat is that I am getting than posterior tilt.  I think I definitely have one and now that I am noticing it more, I notice it is happening on my squatting, probably putting too much stress on my back than I should be.
> 
> ...




are you sure it tilts posteriorly?  do you know what a posterior tilt looks like?


Typically if you are getting that tilt it has a lot to do with lack of strength and poor neuromuscular coordination.


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## Stewart14 (May 17, 2007)

P-funk said:


> are you sure it tilts posteriorly? do you know what a posterior tilt looks like?
> 
> 
> Typically if you are getting that tilt it has a lot to do with lack of strength and poor neuromuscular coordination.


 
I am mistaken in my wording, sorry bout that. I have an anterior tilt, I always get those wordings confused. but I saw pictures of the two and read a little more about it last night, and I stand corrected, it is definitely anterior tilt. the symptoms of tight quads/erectors, weak glutes/hamstrings and abs is definitely what I have, as far as I can tell.


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## Witchblade (May 17, 2007)

Look in my FAQ, there's a link to a good article about the anterior tilt.


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