# And this is what happens when labor unions go away.



## LAM (Apr 30, 2013)

When Your Boss Steals Your Wages: The Invisible Epidemic That


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## Swfl (Apr 30, 2013)

This is just a other example of liberal bullshit. If the wages weren't set so high already then none of this would be an issue. You can't pay a cook $18/hr and only charge $4 for a sandwich...  The liberals making things FAIR are making things UNFAIR to those less educated.  I used to always hold the last payment until I recieved all company materials back in my possession and if anything was missing it was deducted from the check. I see no problems with this. I gave them working equipment and if it was lost or damaged they were responsible for it. They didn't like it but it was FAIR.


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## jay_steel (Apr 30, 2013)

unions take away the fear of being fired and drives down competition and work ethic. The fact that i know if my farm does not produce i go bankrurpt drives me to work harder, or if i dont give IT support to the Dr's or I am fires drives me to come in and do overtime after farming all morning on the weekend. If i was protected and had no fear of being replaced then I would be much more relaxed.


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## LAM (Apr 30, 2013)

Swfl said:


> This is just a other example of liberal bullshit. If the wages weren't set so high already then none of this would be an issue. You can't pay a cook $18/hr and only charge $4 for a sandwich...  The liberals making things FAIR are making things UNFAIR to those less educated.  I used to always hold the last payment until I recieved all company materials back in my possession and if anything was missing it was deducted from the check. I see no problems with this. I gave them working equipment and if it was lost or damaged they were responsible for it. They didn't like it but it was FAIR.



and what wages would that be?  the ones that once adjusted for inflation are equal to those of the 60's and 70's?  try reading an actual economic report on the subject.  unions have fought for wages to keep up with inflation.  my god the right wing media has corrupted your ability to even perform basic mathmatic functions.  wages increase at the rate of about 1-2% a year while inflation and the increasing costs of goods and services is closer to 4-5% a year.  

* the ILO names the US specifically in stating that low and stagnant wages were not only part of the cause of the 2008 financial collapse but also part of the reason for the sluggish recovery.

Global Wage Report 2008 / 09
Minimum wages and collective bargaining
Towards policy coherence
http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/documents/publication/wcms_100786.pdf

Economy built for profits not prosperity | Economic Policy Institute

U.S. Incomes Seen Stagnant Through 2021 - WSJ.com

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/s...ductivity-climbs-but-wages-stagnate.html?_r=0

Analysis: Stagnant wages a speed-bump for economic growth | Reuters


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## LAM (Apr 30, 2013)

jay_steel said:


> unions take away the fear of being fired and drives down competition and work ethic.



and you know this from never having worked in a union right. my guess is you also never learned proper US history in regards to the lack of wage growth during the Industrial Revolution.


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## Swiper (Apr 30, 2013)

Wages are too high for low skilled labor for the US to be competitive in the global economy.


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## LAM (Apr 30, 2013)

Swfl said:


> This is just a other example of liberal bullshit. If the wages weren't set so high already then none of this would be an issue. You can't pay a cook $18/hr and only charge $4 for a sandwich...  The liberals making things FAIR are making things UNFAIR to those less educated.  I used to always hold the last payment until I recieved all company materials back in my possession and if anything was missing it was deducted from the check. I see no problems with this. I gave them working equipment and if it was lost or damaged they were responsible for it. They didn't like it but it was FAIR.



LOL...you never learned US history did you?  because it was the combination of progressive tax policy and labor unions which fought for labor wages which produced productivity gains across all 5 of the income quintiles from the post great depression until the 70's which caused the growth of the middle class in the US.

the low labor union density US the 3rd lowest in the OECD has the highest percentage of low paid workers at 25% of the total labor force and also has the lowest labor union protection out of any other country in the OECD.

wages used to increase faster at the bottom 2 income quintiles faster than at the top while obviously earning substantially lower incomes.  you know absolutely nothing about US economic history except what you have "learned" from right wing media outlets. to date the number of highly cited economic reports from conservative economists numbers 0 in the past 40 years.  Now I wonder why that is.  the number of Nobel prize winning conservative economists equals 0.


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## LAM (Apr 30, 2013)

Page 8. Figure 1 shows how the US ranks last in worker protections in the OECD even behind Mexico.

http://www.oecd.org/employment/emp/43116624.pdf


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## Swfl (Apr 30, 2013)

It's simple, it's not the conservatives are wrong or stupid we just do what needs to be done and not talk about it, and try to force or opinions on everyone else three networks of schools Nobel Prizes and massive media outlets. Liberals have week and hard to prove ideas most of which don't work so they lie and have their peers back them up. Just like the Nazis used to say if you yell something loud enough strong enough and long enough people will believe you. You are just part of liberal machine the cancerous part that is destroying this country, thank you for your dis-service.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2


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## LAM (Apr 30, 2013)

Swfl said:


> It's simple, it's not the conservatives are wrong or stupid we just do what needs to be done and not talk about it,



of course no evidence needed because "we believe" than it most be true.  you know who else thinks like that? sociopaths...

sadly you have the left confused with the right.  because the ideology of the radical right in the US couldn't be any closer to that of the Nazi party.


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## LCSULLA (Apr 30, 2013)

Labor Unions...bah. They had their time in the sun, but many if them overplayed their hand. Look at the auto industry. You needed to pay some guy 90k...in Detroit, to screw bolts on to a car. An their negotiated retirement was perfect...for 1965. But nobody thought those old fucks would live to be 90 and spend more years in retirement then in the workforce.


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## Little Wing (Apr 30, 2013)

who wants a 4 dollar shit sandwich anyway? i'd rather pay 8 with ingredients worth eating and not made by someone struggling so hard to get by they drool on my sandwich. i don't want 2 dollar t shirts either... these arguments are bs.


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## Little Wing (Apr 30, 2013)

chambermaiding in nevada was union protected work and we still worked hard and were afraid of not performing well. we were well paid and it didn't seem to hurt our employers a bit. some of the union stuff was a bit over the top like not having to step into a tub to scrub the back wall of the shower but most of us just did it anyway.


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## LAM (Apr 30, 2013)

LCSULLA said:


> Labor Unions...bah. They had their time in the sun, but many if them overplayed their hand. Look at the auto industry. You needed to pay some guy 90k...in Detroit, to screw bolts on to a car. An their negotiated retirement was perfect...for 1965. But nobody thought those old fucks would live to be 90 and spend more years in retirement then in the workforce.



name one country in the OECD with low union labor density rates and a growing economy?

must be that the economists at the OECD misinterpreted 30 years of economic data from over 130 country's when all they had to do was ask some dumb-ass conservatives what the problem was.


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## Swiper (Apr 30, 2013)

LAM said:


> to date the number of highly cited economic reports from conservative economists numbers 0 in the past 40 years.  Now I wonder why that is.  the number of Nobel prize winning conservative economists equals 0.



Milton Friedman. It was once a respectable organization, but not anymore 

 the noble prize committee is made up of a bunch of Norwegian big gov liberals.  So stop citing the noble prize when referring to a highly regarded organization.  it is not. it's a liberal big gov organization that gives the prize to its own kind. 

A Nobel Prize for Idiots, Signifying Only Bias - Bloomberg


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## Zaphod (Apr 30, 2013)

LCSULLA said:


> Labor Unions...bah. They had their time in the sun, but many if them overplayed their hand. Look at the auto industry. You needed to pay some guy 90k...in Detroit, to screw bolts on to a car. An their negotiated retirement was perfect...for 1965. But nobody thought those old fucks would live to be 90 and spend more years in retirement then in the workforce.



Do you know what it takes for those guys to make that 90k/year?


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## IronAddict (Apr 30, 2013)

It's surprising to me how many people have been talked into believing that getting rid of unions is actually a good thing. 

Maybe we should all work weekends, let's give back fair wages and relative equality, bring back child labor (remember hearing this by a guy in a certain parrty)? Let's not forget Unions helped negotiate the 1st healthcare  from employers ( what party doesn't want you to have any coverage ? Maybe we shouldn't get any piss breaks or lunch breaks.

Shoot yourselves in the foot, leave me be.


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## Swfl (Apr 30, 2013)

IronAddict said:


> It's surprising to me how many people have been talked into believing that getting rid of unions is actually a good thing.


 seriously its surprising to you? Unions have completely destroyed United States work ethic and economic supremicy. Everyone has a BUG up their ass if they have to work weekends or work overtime and they feel it's not fair because "I have to get the softball game or i'm going to miss my favorite TV show" instead of getting the job done this country is full of pussies that don't know how to work, and what little work they do, they feel like it's more than anyone else in the world and its barely scratches the surface of what other countries workers do. And I speak from experience my father owns his own business my entire life and my mother work for union and retired from it I've seen both sides


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2


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## Little Wing (Apr 30, 2013)

Swfl said:


> seriously its surprising to you? Unions have completely destroyed United States work ethic and economic supremicy. Everyone has a BUG up their ass if they have to work weekends or work overtime and they feel it's not fair because "I have to get the softball game or i'm going to miss my favorite TV show" instead of getting the job done this country is full of pussies that don't know how to work, and what little work they do, they feel like it's more than anyone else in the world and its barely scratches the surface of what other countries workers do. And I speak from experience my father owns his own business my entire life and my mother work for union and retired from it I've seen both sides
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2



are you typing this on your phone while you are hard at work?


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## IronAddict (Apr 30, 2013)

Swfl said:


> seriously its surprising to you? Unions have completely destroyed United States work ethic and economic supremicy. Everyone has a BUG up their ass if they have to work weekends or work overtime and they feel it's not fair because "I have to get the softball game or i'm going to miss my favorite TV show" instead of getting the job done this country is full of pussies that don't know how to work, and what little work they do, they feel like it's more than anyone else in the world and its barely scratches the surface of what other countries workers do. And I speak from experience my father owns his own business my entire life and my mother work for union and retired from it I've seen both sides
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Great, but why shouldn't someone else's family get the same benefit.


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## bio-chem (Apr 30, 2013)

Yahoo is now giving 8 weeks paid maternity leave to men or women, and another 8 weeks non-paid on top of that to women. Was that because of Unions?

Unions did a great thing. Unions have been, and still can be a piece of the puzzle. However, unions have caused enough shit to hurt themselves, and cause a backlash. Unions need to modernize, and not treat negotiations like it's 1965 if they want to be effective. 

I want my fucking twinkies damn it. Does anyone here think that unions helped hostess employees? Twinkies are coming back. WooHoo. and it's happening without unions. 

Unions can learn to adapt or they can become obsolete. Simple as that. public support is no longer with them. guess they are doing a poor job of telling their story. 

Yes, I've been a member of a union. No, I no longer am. I was a member of IBEW. If I still worked in that job, i would be a member still.


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## Swfl (Apr 30, 2013)

it wasnt a benefit! My Mother always made less (significantly less than my father) it held her back.  Unions do that  by keeping people under their thumb with the benefits which just enslave people not uplift and inspire them.





IronAddict said:


> Great, but why shouldn't someone else's family get the same benefit.


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## IronAddict (Apr 30, 2013)

Swfl said:


> it wasnt a benefit! My Mother always made less (significantly less than my father) it held her back.  Unions do that  by keeping people under their thumb with the benefits which just enslave people not uplift and inspire them.



Regardless, why shouldn't someone else's mother not have a Union to argue in her favor.


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## Swfl (Apr 30, 2013)

is your real name Brick Wall?  im done with this argument. you won! i'm stupid just ask LAM


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## l69lou (Apr 30, 2013)

IronAddict said:


> It's surprising to me how many people have been talked into believing that getting rid of unions is actually a good thing.
> 
> Maybe we should all work weekends, let's give back fair wages and relative equality, bring back child labor (remember hearing this by a guy in a certain parrty)? Let's not forget Unions helped negotiate the 1st healthcare  from employers ( what party doesn't want you to have any coverage ? Maybe we shouldn't get any piss breaks or lunch breaks.
> 
> Shoot yourselves in the foot, leave me be.


 Amen brother ! I was a PROUD union printing pressman for some 30 yrs. I also worked non-union in Florida sweatshops . Unions have done so much for our country and the working people it's amazing how we forget. Even non-union workers benefit from the union contracts in their area and their field. They bring quality training and apprenticeships , remember those. We were the BEST in our trade bar none and that meant huge increases in quality and productivity for our employers. Are unions perfect and never wrong, of course not. There have been many mistakes and abuses just like anything else. I have to laugh when I hear all these stories about how you can't get fired and there is no incentive to work hard. You most certainly can and will be terminated if you don't come to work each day ready to do your best and with union pride. People just repeat over and over the same old anti-union lies, it's so sad. Remember our economy is consumer based. Based on the middle class having the income to afford goods and services . How can we have  sustained growth when our wages and benefits fall farther and farther behind. We had the peak of wages about the late 70's -1980, ever since we are going down hill but the ceo's and top percent had their wages increase dramatically, you be the judge !


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## DOMS (Apr 30, 2013)

LAM said:


> name one country in the OECD with low union labor density rates and a growing economy?
> 
> must be that the economists at the OECD misinterpreted 30 years of economic data from over 130 country's when all they had to do was ask some dumb-ass conservatives what the problem was.



Source: OEDC.org.

The last time that all OECD countries reported this statistic, in 2008, the USA ranked 5th from the bottom; above Turkey, Estonia, France, and Korea.

Also, the labor statistics -- like many quality of life statistics in the USA -- are skewed by illegals. Upwards of 25 million wetbacks will fuck up anyone's statistics.


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## maniclion (Apr 30, 2013)

Swfl said:


> seriously its surprising to you? Unions have completely destroyed United States work ethic and economic supremicy. Everyone has a BUG up their ass if they have to work weekends or work overtime and they feel it's not fair because "I have to get the softball game or i'm going to miss my favorite TV show" instead of getting the job done this country is full of pussies that don't know how to work, and what little work they do, they feel like it's more than anyone else in the world and its barely scratches the surface of what other countries workers do. And I speak from experience my father owns his own business my entire life and my mother work for union and retired from it I've seen both sides
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2



Really, shouldn't we be working less time than our grand fathers did, shouldn't we be able to retire like our grandfathers did?  What happened to 9-5 Mon-Fri?  I do 7-5 and work Saturdays 8-2.  I have a retirement plan, but what are my chances of that ever happening?  We are regressing, not progressing, with all of our technology why are we working longer?


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## Swiper (Apr 30, 2013)

maniclion said:


> Really, shouldn't we be working less time than our grand fathers did, shouldn't we be able to retire like our grandfathers did?  What happened to 9-5 Mon-Fri?  I do 7-5 and work Saturdays 8-2.  I have a retirement plan, but what are my chances of that ever happening?  We are regressing, not progressing, with all of our technology why are we working longer?



Part of the problem is our gov destroyed the purchasing power of the dollar.


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## exphys88 (Apr 30, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> Yahoo is now giving 8 weeks paid maternity leave to men or women, and another 8 weeks non-paid on top of that to women. Was that because of Unions?
> 
> Unions did a great thing. Unions have been, and still can be a piece of the puzzle. However, unions have caused enough shit to hurt themselves, and cause a backlash. Unions need to modernize, and not treat negotiations like it's 1965 if they want to be effective.
> 
> ...



Good points.  They should still have a place, and they have made mistakes. The point, is that they are needed in many industries.


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## Big Smoothy (Apr 30, 2013)

jay_steel said:


> unions take away the *fear of being fired* and drives down competition and work ethic.



jay_steel,

That depends.

I worked with union workers who could be fire for wearing the wrong color shirt.

It depends on the situation.  Yes, some/many union member cannot be fired, but many can be.


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## dogsoldier (Apr 30, 2013)

LAM said:


> LOL... to date the number of highly cited economic reports from conservative economists numbers 0 in the past 40 years.  Now I wonder why that is.  the number of Nobel prize winning conservative economists equals 0.



Oh LAM, your Google Foo has failed you.  The list you are refering to have the following names besides Friedman: Gary Becker, Robert Lucas, Robert  Mundell, Edward Prescott and Myron Scholes.  All conservative all alive and got thier awards in the last 30 years or so.

Lam I honestly hope you get a job so you would have something to do with yourself other than waste your time Googling shit to prove yourself right.  I am concerned about you son. If Google ever shut down, you would be suicidal.


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## Swiper (Apr 30, 2013)

Big Smoothy said:


> jay_steel,
> 
> That depends.
> 
> ...



 i was reading your signature, how come jack lew is not arrested and tried for perjury?  he was lying under oath.



nice weather uh?


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## Big Smoothy (Apr 30, 2013)

Swiper said:


> i was reading your signature, how come jack lew is not arrested and tried for perjury?  he was lying under oath.



I don't know. 

He's a bankster gangster.  





> nice weather uh?



Weather is OK. I'm in Seattle now, heading to South America next week.


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## Swiper (Apr 30, 2013)

Big Smoothy said:


> I don't know.
> 
> He's a bankster gangster.
> 
> ...



oh ok it's like 80 Chicago even at 9pm!


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## LAM (Apr 30, 2013)

Swfl said:


> i'm stupid just ask LAM



the only intelligent and accurate post I've seen you make in years.

quite frankly there is not one single economic report in existence written by economists inside or outside the US that points the finger at unions being a problem or causing negative effects on the US economy in the or any other country in the world.

there is simply no historical or empirical data that supports your anti-union rhetoric, that being the case it's obvious your "viewpoints" are based purely on ideology.


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## dogsoldier (Apr 30, 2013)

<AM, why don't you take off the Mao glasses and take a hard look.  Unions have become huge bloated bureaucracies. They support immigration reform so they can get those people in the unions for thier dues. Take a look at the pay scales of the heads of the top unions and you will see in many cases they make as much as CEO's of major corporations. However, they are not generating wealth, they are taking it from the people's dues.  I have been in unions, I deal with a union almost daily. These guys are just as political and corrupt as the companies they are "protecting" the workers from.


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## Swiper (Apr 30, 2013)

Swfl said:


> i'm stupid just ask LAM




welcome to the club.   lol.


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## Swiper (Apr 30, 2013)

Former SEIU boss found guilty of ripping off low wage earning union members. 

A four-year long investigation after allegations of union dues going to pay for vacations, his wedding, and some expensive golf outings, led the IRS, the FBI, and U.S. Department of Labor to uncover fraud to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.  Freeman, who earned some $200,000 per year, was also found to have been redirecting funds from Local 6434 into his personally led California United Homecare Workers union.

While giving himself raises, he was doing it off of the backs of union workers being paid $9 and hour.



http://gaslamppost.wordpress.com/20...f-ripping-off-low-wage-earning-union-members/

lol.


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## Little Wing (Apr 30, 2013)

Police Brutality On Innocent Children! - Ultra Style







where your cheap shit at walmart comes from.


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## Swiper (Apr 30, 2013)

LCSULLA said:


> Labor Unions...bah. They had their time in the sun, but many if them overplayed their hand. Look at the auto industry. You needed to pay some guy 90k...in Detroit, to screw bolts on to a car. An their negotiated retirement was perfect...for 1965. But nobody thought those old fucks would live to be 90 and spend more years in retirement then in the workforce.



Lets take a look at the union auto industry.......



[h=1]UAW Union Bosses Abusing Positions for Pay[/h][h=2][/h]By: Warner Todd Huston

TV News 4 in Detroit did an excellent expose on a few union bosses that routinely rip off the unions and the auto makers they work for with fake time cards and paid for but unworked overtime pay.
One of the bosses, Ron Seroka, a union job security officer, takes off half a day nearly everyday to go home to lounge around the house while he is on the clock. Seroka punches in at the plant at 6AM every single day and is home by 11:30 AM for some nice leisure time at home. Yet he gets a steady 10 hours pay every single day despite the fact that he is rarely at work.
Seroka?s union boss is even worse. Union chairman Jim Modzelewski buys beer on a daily basis while on the clock and clocks himself in for overtime pay hours before he even wakes up to go into the plant. TV 4 found that after he punches in, he typically leaves for a beer run mere hours later. Again, all this is on a daily basis. He is also paid overtime pay on a daily basis as he sits home drinking his daily beer. With over 2,500 hours of overtime, Modzelewski made a six-figure salary last year. TV 4 also discovered that Modzelewski even played in a bowling tournament while on the clock ? as at overtime pay, too!

Together, just these two union chiefs clocked in over 3,500 hours of overtime pay for the year. Makes one wonder how many union bosses are abusing their positions this way, doesn?t it?
The TV news also briefly interviewed an auto business expert that says in the last ten years one in three American union auto workers would not show up to work on any given day while foreign auto plants would see 98 out of 100 of their workers dutifully show up for work. Makes it a bit hard to plan on a work force in the US with unions in control, doesn?t it?
This report is just one more example of how auto workers unions are one of the big reasons that American auto plants are ineffectual, inefficient, and cannot compete with foreign makers. Not only that, but it reveals that union bosses have no accountability and flaunt their criminal and immoral actions with impunity wasting millions of dollars as they do it.
UAW Union Bosses Abusing Positions for Pay | RedState


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## DOMS (Apr 30, 2013)

Little Wing said:


> Police Brutality On Innocent Children! - Ultra Style
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not only is the cop beating him, but so is the civilian.

The cop looks like he weights a buck, fifty. Shitty-ass motherfucker. I'd like a turn at him. See how he likes his scrawny ass beaten by someone that weighs 70 pounds more.


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## Little Wing (Apr 30, 2013)

yea and a judge just went to jail for selling teens to prisons for profit.... doesn't mean the whole legal system is bad or all judges are corrupt. try again.


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## Swiper (Apr 30, 2013)

Little Wing said:


> Police Brutality On Innocent Children! - Ultra Style
> 
> 
> 
> ...





should i nit pick like Zaphod does and ask you to prove it's from a walmart affiliated shop?


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## Little Wing (Apr 30, 2013)

DOMS said:


> Not only is the cop beating him, but so is the civilian.
> 
> The cop looks like he weights a buck, fifty. Shitty-ass motherfucker. I'd like a turn at him. See how he likes his scrawny ass beaten by someone that weighs 70 pounds more.
> 
> Are those pakis or the curry-smelling Indians?



 garment workers strike in dhaka, bangladesh.


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## Little Wing (Apr 30, 2013)

Swiper said:


> should i nit pick like Zaphod does and ask you to prove it's from a walmart affiliated shop?



photo is from 2010. walmart is CURRENTLY contemplating leaving bangladesh.

Will Wal-Mart Move Manufacturing Out of Bangladesh? - Businessweek


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## LAM (Apr 30, 2013)

dogsoldier said:


> <AM, why don't you take off the Mao glasses and take a hard look.  Unions have become huge bloated bureaucracies. They support immigration reform so they can get those people in the unions for thier dues. Take a look at the pay scales of the heads of the top unions and you will see in many cases they make as much as CEO's of major corporations. However, they are not generating wealth, they are taking it from the people's dues.  I have been in unions, I deal with a union almost daily. These guys are just as political and corrupt as the companies they are "protecting" the workers from.



so instead of fixing the unions you do away with them and you know what you end up with?  the country in the OECD that has the highest percentage of low paid workers out of all other wealthy industrialized country's at 25% of the total labor force and the country that off-shores the most jobs and a work force where 50% of workers are only part-time.  the US has off-shored 6-8x the amount of jobs as the entire EU15 combined.  why because nobody is there to stand up for labor in the US anymore.

when wages stagnated in the US in the 80's which started with the PATCO strike.  those productivity gains were funneled up the ladder and fueled the rapid growth of the US financial sector.  where those monies where then lent back down to those at the bottom and middle to fuel excess consumption.

that's what having a low union density at only 13% of the workforce gets you in reality.

the country's in the EU with much high labor union density rates at 50-80% of the total workforce have smaller financial sectors, more stable economy's and only off-shore a fraction of the number of manufacturing jobs as the US.


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## Little Wing (Apr 30, 2013)

A fire in a garment factory there left more than a hundred workers dead  in November; a supplier had subcontracted work to the factory without  Walmart's knowledge... suuuureeee.


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## Swiper (Apr 30, 2013)

Little Wing said:


> photo is from 2010. walmart is CURRENTLY contemplating leaving bangladesh.
> 
> Will Wal-Mart Move Manufacturing Out of Bangladesh? - Businessweek




 the pic you posted is not in that link.  try again....


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## Little Wing (Apr 30, 2013)

big fucking deal. low prices are made on the backs of slaves. corporations like walmart love to pay as little as possible and they could give a shit less about the workers safety or human rights. educate yourself.


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## Swiper (Apr 30, 2013)

Little Wing said:


> big fucking deal. low prices are made on the backs of slaves. corporations like walmart love to pay as little as possible and they could give a shit less about the workers safety or human rights. educate yourself.



ha ha. you were not being truthful, you lied.



I'm just fuckin with ya.


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## Little Wing (Apr 30, 2013)

if you look back at US history there are many times when tensions got so high between management and labor that numerous people were killed right here at home. i think we are headed there again.


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## LAM (Apr 30, 2013)

IronAddict said:


> It's surprising to me how many people have been talked into believing that getting rid of unions is actually a good thing.
> 
> Maybe we should all work weekends, let's give back fair wages and relative equality, bring back child labor (remember hearing this by a guy in a certain parrty)? Let's not forget Unions helped negotiate the 1st healthcare  from employers ( what party doesn't want you to have any coverage ? Maybe we shouldn't get any piss breaks or lunch breaks.
> 
> Shoot yourselves in the foot, leave me be.



it's the standard talking point of the low wage conservatives.  only those at the bottom are earning too much while those at the top earn every single penny.  the want to keep the status quo because in reality the people at the bottom of the income ladder don't look like them in the mirror.  politics and economics in the US have always been about race.

it's funny to see them bitch about the effects of policy that they champion for which funnels wealth up the ladder when the #1 method of decreasing poverty is to stop paying people poverty wages.


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## Little Wing (Apr 30, 2013)

Swiper said:


> ha ha. you were not being truthful, you lied.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just fuckin with ya.



i'm not so much saying walmart as the ability to buy stuff really cheap in the US. it was a garment worker's strike after deaths in a factory walmart was being investigated as one of the people having clothes made there. they had proven jc penney n several others. we do not allow these atrocities in our neighborhoods but support them by buying slave made shit every damn day.... out of sight out of mind. i would rather pay more for stuff made here. i would rather not give a cent to any company that can't support THIS country by building here, hiring here, and paying fucking taxes here.

the unions disappearing and the middle class disappearing.... is there a connection?


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## Swiper (Apr 30, 2013)

Little Wing said:


> i'm not so much saying walmart as the ability to buy stuff really cheap in the US. it was a garment worker's strike after deaths in a factory walmart was being investigated as one of the people having clothes made there. they had proven jc penney n several others. we do not allow these atrocities in our neighborhoods but support them by buying slave made shit every damn day.... out of sight out of mind. i would rather pay more for stuff made here. i would rather not give a cent to any company that can't support THIS country by building here, hiring here, and paying fucking taxes here.
> 
> the unions disappearing and the middle class disappearing.... is there a connection?



I agree. even though its legal what they do its an atrocity and I don't support it.  not much we can do but protest against it, expose them and not shop at those stores.  
the pics are absolutely heart breaking,


----------



## Little Wing (Apr 30, 2013)

we need to trade apathy for empathy. if enough people simply looked around their house and just flat out refused to buy the shit that supports this we could change this country. purchasing power is an unbelievable power and we all have it. people should feel ashamed to buy things tainted with exploitation or to shop in any shop where the owner is rich and the people doing the work need food stamps....


----------



## DOMS (Apr 30, 2013)

Little Wing said:


> big fucking deal. low prices are made on the backs of slaves. corporations like walmart love to pay as little as possible and they could give a shit less about the workers safety or human rights. educate yourself.



Just FYI, but Walmat doesn't actually make anything. Even their "Great Value" brand products are made by someone else.


----------



## Little Wing (Apr 30, 2013)

DOMS said:


> Just FYI, but Walmat doesn't actually make anything. Even their "Great Value" brand products are made by someone else.




like any grocers store brand is made by someone else...


----------



## DOMS (Apr 30, 2013)

As for unions...

I don't believe for a second that, generally speaking, unions drag companies down. A lot of companies that have unions bitch about how the unions are costing some outrageous number of cost...but, the companies still manage to turn out millions, if not billions, in profits. 

Even though businesses with unions that did tank, such as some of the automotive companies, didn't tank because of unions. Rather, they tanked because of poor business decisions. The US auto manufactuerers were pumping out millions of gas-guzzling SUVs leading up the explosion of gas prices. Their lack of foresight, and the momentum of manufacturing, buried them. The execs were pretty damn quick to blame the unions, though. The unions didn't take pay cuts, but the auto companies are now turning a profit. What saved those companies was the government keeping them afloat through their poor business decisions. If the unions were what was really killing those companies, they'd still be dying.

Then there's the Hostess failure. The company blamed the closing of the company on the unions because they wouldn't take pay cuts. The execs mismanaged the company into the ground and then wanted the workers to take a pay cut for it. And this was while the CEO gave himself a over a 300% pay increase -- from $750,000 to $2,550,000.

Are unions really _the_ -- or _a_ -- problem? Hell no.


----------



## Little Wing (Apr 30, 2013)

i had a friend that was a vietnam vet and obviously had ptsd. he worked with a contractor and a guy he thought of as a close friend for 15 years. the business owner took out money for ss for 15 years and never turned it over to ss he stole it. the worker never found out until he tried to get unemployment. can you imagine how much that sucked? his issues manifested themselves as social anxiety etc so he just sucked up the theft like a roundhouse kick to the sternum and kept working for the guy. he'd looked into unemployment cuz the owner was late with paychecks a lot.


----------



## Little Wing (Apr 30, 2013)

State of California Orders Walmart-Contracted Warehouse to Pay More than $1 Million in Stolen Wages | Warehouse Workers United

RETAIL ACTION PROJECT ? Mystique Workers Win $950k in Stolen Wages

crazy shit. the links seems endless. guess there are a lot of people out there that feel no shame.


----------



## DOMS (Apr 30, 2013)

Little Wing said:


> State of California Orders Walmart-Contracted Warehouse to Pay More than $1 Million in Stolen Wages | Warehouse Workers United
> 
> RETAIL ACTION PROJECT ? Mystique Workers Win $950k in Stolen Wages
> 
> crazy shit. the links seems endless. guess there are a lot of people out there that feel no shame.



I'm pro-Union and stay away from Walmart, but...once again it's a contractor and not actually Walmart.


----------



## Little Wing (Apr 30, 2013)

it was ruled that it was permissible to name walmart as a defendant. "In January Judge Christina Snyder ruled that Walmart can be added as a  defendant in the lawsuit to recover millions of dollars in stolen wages." they need to be responsible for who they hire. it's bullcrap to say we only hired the abusers. well tough, be more careful who you hire. on my days off if i leave my kids with a daycare worker that abuses them i'm responsible for not screening my help. esp if i'm overeager to hire whoever will work cheapest. the old we didn't know the factories weren't safe, we didn't know the workers weren't paid we didn't know my ass. it's their job to know. in my opinion.


"The wage theft ruling is a significant victory for Warehouse Workers  United, which has led a movement to hold Wal-Mart responsible for  warehouse working conditions under the company's subcontractors. Dozens,  if not hundreds of workers from other Wal-Mart warehouse  locations?including more facilities in California, stores in Seattle and  Dallas, and another outside of Chicago?went on strike late last year to  protest poor working conditions and retaliation against workers who  complained about safety hazards."


----------



## clemson357 (May 1, 2013)

LAM, you are so fucking dumb it hurts my head.  

First of all, Commiefornia is one of the most union-happy states in the country.  This has nothing to do with laws limiting union power.

Second of all, if what happened was illegal, there is an enormous labyrinth of criminal prosecuting entities in this country, from the county police all the way up to the DOJ, that will handle it.  We have a judicial system and enough labor laws to fill a school bus, literally.  

Third of all, 93% of the private sector is non-unionized.  What this means is that you can bargain for your salary and benefits and hours as an individual, using the value of your individual marketable skill.  This is the condition for the overwhelming majority of American citizens.  The fact that one dumb fuck high school drop out unloading trucks at WalMart got suckered doesn't mean that we all need a bunch of Chicago-type union thugs taking money out of our paychecks like an old fashion mafia shakedown in order to "protect us" from the evil corporations.  If my employer pulls some shady shit, I take my value skill set elsewhere.


----------



## Zaphod (May 1, 2013)

Swiper said:


> should i nit pick like Zaphod does and ask you to prove it's from a walmart affiliated shop?



Your ass still sore because your made up "facts" aren't facts?


----------



## Zaphod (May 1, 2013)

DOMS said:


> I'm pro-Union and stay away from Walmart, but...once again it's a contractor and not actually Walmart.



My only reason for buying from Walmart is ammo.  They are one of the few places not gouging.


----------



## Swiper (May 1, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> Your ass still sore because your made up "facts" aren't facts?



nit picker.

your're the one who tries to keep getting up my ass.  i already told you, that i'm happily married. leave me alone, homo.


----------



## Zaphod (May 1, 2013)

Swiper said:


> nit picker.
> 
> your're the one who tries to keep getting up my ass.  i already told you, that i'm happily married. leave me alone, homo.



Yup.  You're still all butt hurt.  If you're nice to her maybe your wife will put some A&D ointment on your ass.


----------



## LAM (May 1, 2013)

DOMS said:


> Then there's the Hostess failure. The company blamed the closing of the company on the unions because they wouldn't take pay cuts. The execs mismanaged the company into the ground and then wanted the workers to take a pay cut for it. And this was while the CEO gave himself a over a 300% pay increase -- from $750,000 to $2,550,000.
> 
> Are unions really _the_ -- or _a_ -- problem? Hell no.



New Twinkies Will Have a Missing Ingredient: Union Labor - Working In These Times

* having a low labor union density does nothing expect push the wage ceiling down for all low-semi skilled workers.  there has never been a time in US history when workers where paid well with out the protection of labor unions.  once again those that speak out against unions if not part of the 1% are championing for policy that not decreases not only their own wages but those of their children when they eventually enter the US workforce.


----------



## IronAddict (May 1, 2013)

Swfl said:


> is your real name Brick Wall?  im done with this argument. you won! i'm stupid just ask LAM



I'm not calling anyone any names, that's not my MO. But getting rid of Unions is a real bad idea. While we're at it let's bring back slavery, you don't pay slaves a decent wage, treat them fair, give them any rights, that's all this is just under a different name.


----------



## LAM (May 1, 2013)

clemson357 said:


> LAM, you are so fucking dumb it hurts my head.
> 
> First of all, Commiefornia is one of the most union-happy states in the country.  This has nothing to do with laws limiting union power.
> 
> ...



that's why global wage history and all the empirical data backs my viewpoints and there is none to back those of the low wage anti-union conservatives.  and if you actually knew anything about economics you would understand that there is no bargaining for wages when there is a extremely large reserve workforce (aka. high unemployment).

dumb...just look in the mirror because that's all you.


----------



## LAM (May 1, 2013)




----------



## IronAddict (May 1, 2013)

LAM said:


> it's the standard talking point of the low wage conservatives.  only those at the bottom are earning too much while those at the top earn every single penny.  the want to keep the status quo because in reality the people at the bottom of the income ladder don't look like them in the mirror.  politics and economics in the US have always been about race.
> 
> it's funny to see them bitch about the effects of policy that they champion for which funnels wealth up the ladder when the #1 method of decreasing poverty is to stop paying people poverty wages.



It's very disconcerting to see people arguing against Unions, when Unions were set up because workers only have skill and labor in which to bargain with. Unions rep their membership in negotiating higher wages, enhanced benefits, job security, and better working conditions, as well as trying to eliminate discrimination in the workplace. It's *very, very difficult to take advantage of a union than it is for an individual worker, In unity there is strength. That's why unions are important.*

And that is why the right wing is working soo hard to convince the rabble to do away with Unions!


----------



## dogsoldier (May 1, 2013)

Little Wing said:


> Police Brutality On Innocent Children! - Ultra Style
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh shit, if I ever saw that, that baton would shoved so far up those guys asses it would break their jaw.


----------



## vicious 13 (May 1, 2013)

I'm a union carpenter most of u are horribly wrong


----------



## LAM (May 1, 2013)

LAM said:


>



and just for the record that data used for this video came from the award winning duo Emmanuel Pikatey and Thomas Saez the 2 most heavily cited economists in the world at the present time.


----------



## LCSULLA (May 1, 2013)

Christ. You guys act like it 1965. And I just did a google search and with wages, bonuses, overtime, and paid time off the average auto union worker makes $40 and hr. which comes out to over 83,000. For HS graduate thats awesome. I can see why you don't want unions to go away. You make almost twice the national average of 42k and you live in rural or shit hole areas of the country.


----------



## LAM (May 1, 2013)

LCSULLA said:


> Christ. You guys act like it 1965. And I just did a google search and with wages, bonuses, overtime, and paid time off the average auto union worker makes $40 and hr. which comes out to over 83,000. For HS graduate thats awesome. I can see why you don't want unions to go away. You make almost twice the national average of 42k and you live in rural or shit hole areas of the country.



and you compensated for the differences in the cost of living in the different areas of the country right, the North East, Mid-West, South, West, etc.?  because making 80K in some metro areas in the US is equivalent to poverty wages.


----------



## Zaphod (May 1, 2013)

DOMS said:


> As for unions...
> 
> I don't believe for a second that, generally speaking, unions drag companies down. A lot of companies that have unions bitch about how the unions are costing some outrageous number of cost...but, the companies still manage to turn out millions, if not billions, in profits.
> 
> ...



Most of the problem at Hostess was management stopped putting a portion of employee wages into their pension and instead put that money elsewhere in the company.  Part of the contract was to put part of the union wages into that pension fund.


----------



## DOMS (May 1, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> Most of the problem at Hostess was management stopped putting a portion of employee wages into their pension and instead put that money elsewhere in the company.  Part of the contract was to put part of the union wages into that pension fund.



I'm not sure what your point is.


----------



## DOMS (May 1, 2013)

DOMS said:


> I'm not sure what your point is.



Wow, this sounds really combative. It's not meant that way Zaphod.


----------



## Zaphod (May 1, 2013)

Just adding to what you were saying about Hostess.  Most people think Hostess went out of business because of the unions being greedy.  The unions were standing up to management stealing money from the workers.


----------



## bio-chem (May 1, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> Just adding to what you were saying about Hostess.  Most people think Hostess went out of business because of the unions being greedy.  The unions were standing up to management stealing money from the workers.



and it ended with all those people no longer having a job. So how effective was the union?


----------



## Zaphod (May 1, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> and it ended with all those people no longer having a job. So how effective was the union?



The workers should have let the company steal from them?


----------



## Swiper (May 1, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> The workers should have let the company steal from them?



the question was how effective was the union.   where was the union when the company was stealing from them?  why didn't the union get their money back for them?


----------



## IronAddict (May 1, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> Just adding to what you were saying about Hostess.  Most people think Hostess went out of business because of the unions being greedy.  The unions were standing up to management stealing money from the workers.



Yup, that's exactly what happened there. These guys are trying to twist the the narrative again.


November 16, 2012
What?s happening with Hostess Brands is a microcosm of what?s wrong with America, as Bain-style Wall Street vultures make themselves rich by making America poor. Crony capitalism and consistently poor management drove Hostess into the ground, but its workers are paying the price. These workers, who consistently make great products Americans love and have offered multiple concessions, want their company to succeed. They have bravely taken a stand against the corporate race-to-the-bottom. And now they and their communities are suffering the tragedy of a needless layoff. This is wrong. It has to stop. It?s wrecking America.



Statement by AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka on Hostess Brands Inc.


----------



## LAM (May 1, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> and it ended with all those people no longer having a job. So how effective was the union?



how exactly would any union protect workers then a company went bankrupt due to mismanagement?  the last time I checked unions are not responsible for risk assessment and the day to day operations of a company and it's finances.


----------



## Zaphod (May 1, 2013)

Swiper said:


> the question was how effective was the union.   where was the union when the company was stealing from them?  why didn't the union get their money back for them?



The union bargained for the workers and got the workers what they wanted.  The union can't stop a company stealing from the workers and then going bankrupt.


----------



## Swiper (May 1, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> The union bargained for the workers and got the workers what they wanted.  The union can't stop a company stealing from the workers and then going bankrupt.



they got what they wanted? . I didn't know workers wanted to be unemployed.


----------



## Zaphod (May 1, 2013)

Swiper said:


> they got what they wanted? . I didn't know workers wanted to be unemployed.



You really are that dense, aren't you?  If your employer were stealing your money you would be okay with that so long as you had a job?


----------



## Swiper (May 1, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> You really are that dense, aren't you?  If your employer were stealing your money you would be okay with that so long as you had a job?



no. I agree.  they wanted to quit. that's fine. their choice. they got what they wanted.


----------



## LAM (May 1, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> You really are that dense, aren't you?  If your employer were stealing your money you would be okay with that so long as you had a job?



he's never had a real job or made any real money because he's always worked for small firms in small town USA.  he's used to not making much while many of us are not and have no desire to be accustomed to it either.


----------



## Swiper (May 1, 2013)

LAM said:


> he's never had a real job or made any real money because he's always worked for small firms in small town USA.  he's used to not making much while many of us are not and have no desire to be accustomed to it either.



lol.  keep thinking that if it makes you feel better about yourself,  you have some serious issues.

FYI, I was in a big union in a large city.


----------



## LAM (May 1, 2013)

Swiper said:


> lol.  keep thinking that if it makes you feel better about yourself,  you have some serious issues.
> 
> FYI, I was in a big union in a large city.



you a liar because you have never lived in a big city in the north east or west coast nor have you ever worked for a union.  in dozens of posts on this subject over many years you have not once talked about either of these experiences but today out of the "blue" all of a sudden your an ex-union member from a big city....right

there are 3 types that champion for low wages via lower labor union density rates:

GOP politicians
US large firm CEO's
wage workers in red states that earn less than those in highly unionized states, otherwise known as haters.

* the "right to work for less wage" haters since they know their wages or benefits will never equal those of the highly unionized blue states champion for policy to have the wages of others brought down instead of fighting for their own to be increased.


----------



## Swiper (May 1, 2013)

LAM said:


> you a liar because you have never lived in a big city in the north east or west coast nor have you ever worked for a union.  in dozens of posts on this subject over many years you have not once talked about either of these experiences but today out of the "blue" all of a sudden your an ex-union member from a big city....right
> .


many years? I signed up here march 2012. 
no one asked about me being in a union  or accused me of not being in one.   and I didn't WORK for a union, I was a member. if Chicago isn't a large city then I don't know what is. I just made a post yesterday to big smoothy about the weather here. look it up.


----------



## DOMS (May 1, 2013)

Swiper said:


> many years? I signed up here march 2012.
> no one asked about me being in a union  or accused me of not being in one.   and I didn't WORK for a union, I was a member. if Chicago isn't a large city then I don't know what is. I just made a post yesterday to big smoothy about the weather here. look it up.



He told me that I've only ever lived in small towns, even though I grew up in LA.


----------



## LAM (May 1, 2013)

DOMS said:


> He told me that I've only ever lived in small towns, even though I grew up in LA.



you have the typical small town conservative  mind so sorry for the confusion, apparently your just a racist idiot from LA.  

my bad


----------



## LAM (May 1, 2013)

Swiper said:


> many years? I signed up here march 2012.
> no one asked about me being in a union  or accused me of not being in one.   and I didn't WORK for a union, I was a member. if Chicago isn't a large city then I don't know what is. I just made a post yesterday to big smoothy about the weather here. look it up.



do you really think I read your posts? I might scan them if i'm super crazy bored.  my water dog is more intelligent than you are.  I could learn absolutely nothing from you ever about anything.


----------



## clemson357 (May 1, 2013)

LAM said:


> that's why global wage history and all the empirical data backs my viewpoints and there is none to back those of the low wage anti-union conservatives.  and if you actually knew anything about economics you would understand that there is no bargaining for wages when there is a extremely large reserve workforce (aka. high unemployment).
> 
> dumb...just look in the mirror because that's all you.



There isn't an extremely large reserve workforce for people who have specialized skills and training.  Unions are mainly for two types of people these days: (1) government employees; (2) low skilled labor.  The skilled unionized laborer is a dying breed.  Government unions won't disappear because the government doesn't have to turn a profit or be efficient, so they can pay inflated wages - afterall it is only taxpayer money.  Low skilled labor needs unionized protection because they are easily replaceable.


----------



## Swiper (May 1, 2013)

LAM said:


> do you really think I read your posts? I might scan them if i'm super crazy bored.  my water dog is more intelligent than you are.  I could learn absolutely nothing from you ever about anything.



wow.  you're an arrogant egomaniac. 

yes,  you said you've been reading my posts for "years" 

you're too closed minded to learn anything new. you're living your life with  blinders on.  take them off and take a look around for once in your  life.   


Are you on medication?  if not you might want to look into it. could be a chemical imbalance or something to that nature.  it's not your fault. it happens to a lot of people. remember we're here to help you. just ask, mental problems are no joke.  I wish you the best.


----------



## LAM (May 1, 2013)

Swiper said:


> wow.  you're an arrogant egomaniac.
> 
> yes,  you said you've been reading my posts for "years"
> 
> ...



no it's just that your a fucking moron so what could i possibly learn from you on this forum?  I know more than you about resistance training, nutrition, steroids, politics, US history, world history and economics.  so what exactly could I learn from you here? nothing...

and yes I have a problem with time it's meaningless to me.  I never have to be anywhere or am in a rush to do anything so I lose complete track of it, it's a family thing.  I thought you had been here longer than only a year but like I stated I don't read your posts, they make my brain hurt.

and I'm pretty sure your the one that needs meds you seem to not know very much all about subjects that you talk about here in Open Chat. one would think being wrong about everything would get old but you keep at it, I'll give you that.  maybe turn of the right wing tv that you've been watching your entire life because it's filled your head up with bullshit neo-con "beliefs" and non-facts which are synonymous.


----------



## Zaphod (May 2, 2013)

Swiper said:


> no. I agree.  they wanted to quit. that's fine. their choice. they got what they wanted.



You didn't answer my question.  If your employer were stealing from you would you be okay with that?


----------



## Swiper (May 2, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> You didn't answer my question.  If your employer were stealing from you would you be okay with that?




read my first word in my post. what does it say?


----------



## Swiper (May 2, 2013)

LAM said:


> I know more than you about resistance training, nutrition, steroids, politics, US history, world history and economics.  so what exactly could I learn from you here? nothing...
> .



Results speak louder then words. post a pic and lets see how well you applied your bodybuilding knowledge.


----------



## bio-chem (May 2, 2013)

LAM said:


> what could i possibly learn from you on this forum?  I know more than you about resistance training, nutrition, steroids, politics, US history, world history and economics.  so what exactly could I learn from you here? nothing...



This has Dunning-Kruger written all over it.

 As Charles Darwin said "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"


----------



## bio-chem (May 2, 2013)

So much good work has been done here refuting LAMS asinine posts. I can't rep you guys anymore so i'll just say keep up the good work DOMS, Swiper, Clemson, and others. Well done


----------



## Zaphod (May 2, 2013)

Swiper said:


> read my first word in my post. what does it say?



You never answered it.  It's a yes or no question.  Like a child you try to give an essay for an answer to avoid taking a stand one way or the other.  So, which is it?  Would you be okay with your employer stealing from you?  Your "no" answer was to "are you really that dense?"  Apparently you are.


----------



## Swfl (May 2, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> You never answered it.  It's a yes or no question.  Like a child you try to give an essay for an answer to avoid taking a stand one way or the other.  So, which is it?  Would you be okay with your employer stealing from you?



I'll answer this one. Of course not, and I'm not cool with unions taking my money either regardless if I get paid more because of them or not

This message was sent using fucking awesomeness.


----------



## Zaphod (May 2, 2013)

Swfl said:


> I'll answer this one. Of course not, and I'm not cool with unions taking my money either regardless if I get paid more because of them or not
> 
> This message was sent using fucking awesomeness.



The workers at Hostess weren't okay with the company stealing their money, either.  That money was supposed to go directly into the worker pension fund.  The money was a part of their hourly wages, not an extra the company was kicking in.  Hostess management was taking that money and using however they saw fit.


----------



## Swiper (May 2, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> You never answered it.  It's a yes or no question.  Like a child you try to give an essay for an answer to avoid taking a stand one way or the other.  So, which is it?  Would you be okay with your employer stealing from you?  Your "no" answer was to "are you really that dense?"  Apparently you are.



since you have comprehensions issues i'll make it as clear as i can. , i would NOT be ok with an employer stealing wages.


----------



## Zaphod (May 2, 2013)

Swiper said:


> since you have comprehensions issues i'll make it as clear as i can. , i would NOT be ok with an employer stealing wages.



Then why should the Hostess workers have been okay with it?  They voiced their disapproval for management stealing from them and management decided to close the doors rather than put that money back into the worker pension and quit stealing.  

How, exactly, does that equate to the workers wanting to be unemployed as you claim?


----------



## Swiper (May 2, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> Then why should the Hostess workers have been okay with it?  They voiced their disapproval for management stealing from them and management decided to close the doors rather than put that money back into the worker pension and quit stealing.
> 
> How, exactly, does that equate to the workers wanting to be unemployed as you claim?



it's my understanding that the company put up a proposal for the workers to keep the business open and the workers chose not to take it, thus not having a job and being unemployed.  they chose not to take it knowing they'd be out of a job.


----------



## Zaphod (May 2, 2013)

Swiper said:


> it's my understanding that the company put up a proposal for the workers to keep the business open and the workers chose not to take it, thus not having a job and being unemployed.  they chose not to take it knowing they'd be out of a job.



The proposal did nothing to change the company stealing from the workers.  Apparently your understanding of the subject is lacking.  As usual.


----------



## Swiper (May 2, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> The proposal did nothing to change the company stealing from the workers.  Apparently your understanding of the subject is lacking.  As usual.



can you post a link to the PROPOSAL you keep talking about?


----------



## exphys88 (May 2, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> This has Dunning-Kruger written all over it.
> 
> As Charles Darwin said "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"



Lol at you quoting Darwin.


----------



## bio-chem (May 2, 2013)

exphys88 said:


> Lol at you quoting Darwin.



look at my name. bio-chem. I chose to study this shit because I enjoy it. I've read On the Origin of the Species, and the Voyage of the Beagle. Unlike 99% of people on the internet who with no study of the subject matter full throatily argue for Evolution as the only explanation of our existence. 

Go back and read any of my posts about Darwin. I've never once denigrated his brilliance as a Scientist in pushing forward the study of biology for the purpose of science. I respect what he did greatly. I merely disagree with some of his conclusions. Which is made easy for me as I have another 150 years of scientific knowledge to learn from that he is responsible for. Like Freud founding modern Psychology modern scientists can recognize both the benefit in starting us down a path of learning, and recognize the fact that in many things these two men were simply wrong. 

There is no irony in my quoting Darwin. His quote was simply applicable to LAM thinking he is the most knowledgeable man on this forum in any subject he chooses to weigh in on because of his own fundamentally flawed, and self perceived brilliance.


----------



## exphys88 (May 2, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> look at my name. bio-chem. I chose to study this shit because I enjoy it. I've read On the Origin of the Species, and the Voyage of the Beagle. Unlike 99% of people on the internet who with no study of the subject matter full throatily argue for Evolution as the only explanation of our existence.
> 
> Go back and read any of my posts about Darwin. I've never once denigrated his brilliance as a Scientist in pushing forward the study of biology for the purpose of science. I respect what he did greatly. I merely disagree with some of his conclusions. Which is made easy for me as I have another 150 years of scientific knowledge to learn from that he is responsible for. Like Freud founding modern Psychology modern scientists can recognize both the benefit in starting us down a path of learning, and recognize the fact that in many things these two men were simply wrong.
> 
> There is no irony in my quoting Darwin. His quote was simply applicable to LAM thinking he is the most knowledgeable man on this forum in any subject he chooses to weigh in on because of his own fundamentally flawed, and self perceived brilliance.



I've read both of those books too, and I share your respect of him.

I do find it ironic because his idea of natural selection made evolution widely accepted, thus making the stories of the bible lies, and the entire premise of Christianity flawed.  You're a Christian quoting the man who has probably had the most influence on proving your religion is a myth.


----------



## Zaphod (May 2, 2013)

Swiper said:


> can you post a link to the PROPOSAL you keep talking about?



You said management brought a proposal to the workers, how does that equate to me finding it for you?  The burden of proof is on you finding it.


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## bio-chem (May 2, 2013)

exphys88 said:


> I've read both of those books too, and I share your respect of him.
> 
> I do find it ironic because his idea of natural selection made evolution widely accepted, thus making the stories of the bible lies, and the entire premise of Christianity flawed.  You're a Christian quoting the man who has probably had the most influence on proving your religion is a myth.


what a flawed understanding of what you read to feel that it in anyway disproves Christianity. Modern science recognizes his mistakes. So tell me, how can something universally accepted as fundamentally flawed be used to disprove something else?

Evolution is the best scientific understanding of the incomplete evidence we have before us currently. It is in no way the end all proof that God doesn't exist and we spontaneously came about. To believe that is simply twisting something for your own uses that was never intended to be used as such.


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## exphys88 (May 2, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> what a flawed understanding of what you read to feel that it in anyway disproves Christianity. Modern science recognizes his mistakes. So tell me, how can something universally accepted as fundamentally flawed be used to disprove something else?
> 
> Evolution is the best scientific understanding of the incomplete evidence we have before us currently. It is in no way the end all proof that God doesn't exist and we spontaneously came about. To believe that is simply twisting something for your own uses that was never intended to be used as such.



It doesn't say anything about god not existing, it just proves that the creation story and the premise of Christianity, the fall of man and the resurrection of Jesus is a lie.  The main parts of the bible being just fairy tales.

The premise of Christianity is the fall of man (Adam and eve), god sending Jesus to die for their sins, and his subsequent resurrection.  Once we accept that the story of Adam and Eve is just a story, and that we actually evolved, there is no longer a reason for Jesus to be crucified.  

As much as people like you try to make evolution and the bible compatible, it's just grasping at straws.  It's a futile attempt to save your dying myth.


----------



## exphys88 (May 2, 2013)

exphys88 said:


> It doesn't say anything about god not existing, it just proves that the creation story and the premise of Christianity, the fall of man and the resurrection of Jesus is a lie.  The main parts of the bible being just fairy tales.
> 
> The premise of Christianity is the fall of man (Adam and eve), god sending Jesus to die for their sins, and his subsequent resurrection.  Once we accept that the story of Adam and Eve is just a story, and that we actually evolved, there is no longer a reason for Jesus to be crucified.
> 
> As much as people like you try to make evolution and the bible compatible, it's just grasping at straws.  It's a futile attempt to save your dying myth.



Not to mention how stupid it is to believe that Jesus was dead for 3 days and then came back to life, lol. 
No person calling them a scientist should believe such stupid stories.


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## Swiper (May 2, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> You said management brought a proposal to the workers, how does that equate to me finding it for you?  The burden of proof is on you finding it.



I'm not the one claiming to know exactly what's in the proposal


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## DOMS (May 2, 2013)

Just an FYI, in 2004, the unions workers gave $110 million in concessions.


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## Zaphod (May 2, 2013)

Swiper said:


> I'm not the one claiming to know exactly what's in the proposal



You are claiming to know there was one.  I never said what was in it.  Get your shit straight.


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## Swiper (May 2, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> You are claiming to know there was one.  I never said what was in it.  Get your shit straight.



yes you did. you said in the proposal they wanted to keep stealing the workers money. show me where in the proposal it refers to that.  burden of proof is on you for making such a claim.


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## Zaphod (May 2, 2013)

Swiper said:


> yes you did. you said in the proposal they wanted to keep stealing the workers money. show me where in the proposal it refers to that.  burden of proof is on you for making such a claim.



Quote me where I said that.


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## Swiper (May 2, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> Quote me where I said that.





Zaphod said:


> The proposal did nothing to change the company stealing from the workers. Apparently your understanding of the subject is lacking. As usual.



^^^^^^^


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## Zaphod (May 2, 2013)

Swiper said:


> ^^^^^^^



Quit being a moron.  It's hard for you, I'm sure.  Your lack of knowledge on the subject is more apparent with your every post.  The company wanted the workers to take even more cuts while not putting worker pension contributions into the workers' pensions that the company had already siphoned off.  

Is that really so hard for you to understand?


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## Swiper (May 2, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> Quit being a moron.  It's hard for you, I'm sure.  Your lack of knowledge on the subject is more apparent with your every post.  The company wanted the workers to take even more cuts while not putting worker pension contributions into the workers' pensions that the company had already siphoned off.
> 
> Is that really so hard for you to understand?



a cut in pay is stealing? if they're stealing it's against the law, where are all the lawsuits? why didn't the union help out their members and sue the company for theft of wages?


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## Zaphod (May 2, 2013)

Swiper said:


> a cut in pay is stealing? if they're stealing it's against the law, where are all the lawsuits? why didn't the union help out their members and sue the company for theft of wages?



Last time, idiot.  Let's say the workers were making $20/hour.  Part of their contract with the company was for Hostess to take $3 of their hourly wage and put it in the workers' pension fund.  Hostess was taking that portion supposed to go into the workers' pension and using as they saw fit.  That is theft.


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## Swiper (May 2, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> Last time, idiot.  Let's say the workers were making $20/hour.  Part of their contract with the company was for Hostess to take $3 of their hourly wage and put it in the workers' pension fund.  Hostess was taking that portion supposed to go into the workers' pension and using as they saw fit.  That is theft.



that's not what i'm asking. did you even bother to read my post? 

 you established you believe it was theft. that's great but you refused to answer my questions

I'll ask again,
if they're stealing it's against the law, where are all the lawsuits? why didn't the union help out their members and sue the company for theft of wages?


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## oufinny (May 2, 2013)

^^^ Swiper, you really are retarded. There was a blonde, dumb as rocks typical ditzy blonde mind you, at my last company that was our receptionist. We all wanted to fuck the chick but she was so stupid you couldn't get past it. You sir are the male equivalent, so stupid you turn everyone off I stead of learning so you don't look that stupid anymore. Stupid is a choice, remember that.


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## Bowden (May 2, 2013)

Swiper said:


> that's not what i'm asking. did you even bother to read my post?
> 
> you established you believe it was theft. that's great but you refused to answer my questions
> 
> ...



Because technically it's not theft that is breaking the law.
It's not against federal law due to the fact that the pension money diverted did not come directly from employees.


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## Swiper (May 2, 2013)

Bowden said:


> Because technically it's not theft that is breaking the law.
> It's not against federal law due to the fact that the pension money diverted did not come directly from employees.



thanks B, finally someone with a brain can give me a straight answer.


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## Swiper (May 2, 2013)

oufinny said:


> ^^^ Swiper, you really are retarded. There was a blonde, dumb as rocks typical ditzy blonde mind you, at my last company that was our receptionist. We all wanted to fuck the chick but she was so stupid you couldn't get past it. You sir are the male equivalent.



first off, I'm flattered you'd like to fuck me, but I'm happily married and straight. so back off and look for someone else to fuck you.  I'm not interested. 
secondly,
do you really think I care what you think of me?   get off your high horse. you mean nothing to me.  

you're an embarrassment to the orbit nutrition company. you're an ass hole that turns off a lot of business for them.   shameful....


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## bio-chem (May 2, 2013)

well now you are just being a fucking tool because it doesn't prove anything that you just said. Evolution hasn't been proven dumbshit. It is simply the best scientific explanation of incomplete data that we have. It is a theory that is constantly evolving itself because with each new discovery of bones we have to alter it yet again.

Who are you to judge a scientist for believing in God and the bible? There are plenty of men smarter than either of us who are Christian, believe in the bible, and are amazing scientists. So take a step back, pull your head way out your ass, and stop trying to pick a fight on the internet because you don't believe something someone else does. Neither Science or Faith proves, nor disproves the other, and if anything only compliment each other. Both are taking different roads to grasp at and explain something not fully understood. 

This is the reason I hate atheists. You all claim you want to be left alone and not have others beliefs forced upon you, and then you go around putting your shit out there and twisting unrelated things just to pick a fight.


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## exphys88 (May 2, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> well now you are just being a fucking tool because it doesn't prove anything that you just said. Evolution hasn't been proven dumbshit. It is simply the best scientific explanation of incomplete data that we have. It is a theory that is constantly evolving itself because with each new discovery of bones we have to alter it yet again.
> 
> Who are you to judge a scientist for believing in God and the bible? There are plenty of men smarter than either of us who are Christian, believe in the bible, and are amazing scientists. So take a step back, pull your head way out your ass, and stop trying to pick a fight on the internet because you don't believe something someone else does. Neither Science or Faith proves, nor disproves the other, and if anything only compliment each other. Both are taking different roads to grasp at and explain something not fully understood.
> 
> This is the reason I hate atheists. You all claim you want to be left alone and not have others beliefs forced upon you, and then you go around putting your shit out there and twisting unrelated things just to pick a fight.



You obviously don't understand the definition of a scientific theory.  It's not a hypothesis, it's a proven explanation of a phenomenon in the natural world.  Evolution has been proven, it's called a theory because the way it exerts its effects is constantly being discovered, not because we aren't convinced its proven.

Here's an example so you understand what a scientific theory means:

Germ theory is the theory that explains that disease and illness are cause by bacteria and viruses.  We know that Bactria and viruses cause illness, yet we call it a theory because the way it works is constantly being discovered and updated.

Atomic theory is the same.  We know matter is made up of atoms, yet we call it a theory for the same reasons we call evolution a theory.  Got it?

So, now that we know evolution has been proven, we can see that the entire premise of Christianity never happened.  Adam and Eve never existed, they never ate magical fruit, and Jesus never rose from the dead.  Only a fuckin retard or a child would believe that.

What you're left with is a book written by fucked up men who sold their daughters into slavery and killed people for cutting their hair or touching pig skin.  You base your life off of this book lol.  There are better life lessons learned by reading a book written by Dr. Phil.


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## LAM (May 2, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> So much good work has been done here refuting LAMS asinine posts. I can't rep you guys anymore so i'll just say keep up the good work DOMS, Swiper, Clemson, and others. Well done



yes my posts and view points are supported by leading scholars and economists as I almost always site sources. while you seem to have the short bus crew on your side, that doesn't post any sources. that don't even seem to know basic US or global economic history.

gee I wonder who's view-ports are more in line with empirical data?

and speaking of Dunning-Kruger that's all you bio-chem because in the last couple of years I doubt one person here could say they have learned one single thing from you.  and how many could say the same about my posts on economics and politics?


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## Zaphod (May 3, 2013)

Bowden said:


> Because technically it's not theft that is breaking the law.
> It's not against federal law due to the fact that the pension money diverted did not come directly from employees.



Actually, it did come directly from the employees.


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## bio-chem (May 3, 2013)

exphys88 said:


> You obviously don't understand the definition of a scientific theory.  It's not a hypothesis, it's a proven explanation of a phenomenon in the natural world.  Evolution has been proven, it's called a theory because the way it exerts its effects is constantly being discovered, not because we aren't convinced its proven.
> 
> Here's an example so you understand what a scientific theory means:
> 
> ...



You really are dense aren't you? That's sad. Like i've stated, and is easy to understand their are countless excellent scientists much smarter than either of us making wonderful benefits to society while also believing in Christ. Who are you to judge? How about you stop using things that were invented by people who believed in Christ since Darwin came out with his theory on evolution due to natural selection. Seeing as only fucking retarded children would ever believe in Christ none of their advancements could possibly be useful could they?

I'm well aware of what a theory is, and aware of it's limitations. Just like how evolution doesn't prove or disprove the miracle of a resurrection. You can twist it to believe that in your convoluted head if you want. if you really had read the origin of the species you would know it doesn't in any shape or form even address the resurrection of Christ.That's perfectly fine if you do want to twist unrelated things together. it doesn't mean shit, but do what makes you happy.


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## bio-chem (May 3, 2013)

LAM said:


> and speaking of Dunning-Kruger that's all you bio-chem because in the last couple of years I doubt one person here could say they have learned one single thing from you.  and how many could say the same about my posts on economics and politics?



Please study up on Dunning-Kruger before you comment on it dumb ass. I've never claimed that I can't learn things here because I know more than everyone on any topic this forum might choose to discuss. I'm not hear to teach. I'm here to learn and share ideas. Dunning-Kruger directly addressed your false belief of intellectual superiority. As such it was a valid point, and a pretty intelligent way of putting you down. Many agree with me on that. As I am not claiming intellectual superiority of the internet masses I think i'm doing ok where dunnig-kruger is concerned. I think you are drastically overestimating your reach of educating the lowly masses on the internet by posting thousands of links of long, dry material on the internet. 

stay humble dude. you won't have as many ulcers, or hemorrhoids. And while I wouldn't know from personal experience, I would assume that would make your butt sex easier without them.


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## exphys88 (May 3, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> You really are dense aren't you? That's sad. Like i've stated, and is easy to understand their are countless excellent scientists much smarter than either of us making wonderful benefits to society while also believing in Christ. Who are you to judge? How about you stop using things that were invented by people who believed in Christ since Darwin came out with his theory on evolution due to natural selection. Seeing as only fucking retarded children would ever believe in Christ none of their advancements could possibly be useful could they?
> 
> I'm well aware of what a theory is, and aware of it's limitations. Just like how evolution doesn't prove or disprove the miracle of a resurrection. You can twist it to believe that in your convoluted head if you want. if you really had read the origin of the species you would know it doesn't in any shape or form even address the resurrection of Christ.That's perfectly fine if you do want to twist unrelated things together. it doesn't mean shit, but do what makes you happy.



There are also historians who think the holocaust never happened too, so what?  The scientists you mention are the product of early childhood brainwashing.

Evolution doesn't need to disprove miracles that defy natural laws.  The onus is on the person making miraculous claims.  That's like me saying that my I'm from outer space, and since you can't disprove it, you lose.  

The only reason Christian scientists are of any value is because when it comes to their actual work, they use reason, logic and rationale.  They don't think like Christians when they work.  Otherwise, they'd be praying that god does their research for them, lol.

Btw, if you actually read the origin, you'd know that evolution is not Darwin's theory.  In fact his grandfather wrote about it before Darwin was alive.  

Here are pics of my book w notes.


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## LAM (May 3, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> Please study up on Dunning-Kruger before you comment on it dumb ass. I've never claimed that I can't learn things here because I know more than everyone on any topic this forum might choose to discuss. I'm not hear to teach. I'm here to learn and share ideas. Dunning-Kruger directly addressed your false belief of intellectual superiority. As such it was a valid point, and a pretty intelligent way of putting you down. Many agree with me on that. As I am not claiming intellectual superiority of the internet masses I think i'm doing ok where dunnig-kruger is concerned. I think you are drastically overestimating your reach of educating the lowly masses on the internet by posting thousands of links of long, dry material on the internet.
> 
> stay humble dude. you won't have as many ulcers, or hemorrhoids. And while I wouldn't know from personal experience, I would assume that would make your butt sex easier without them.



I read the study years ago jack-ass long before you ever did, so yes I'm quite familiar with it.  and economics is dry and boring but why would it be anything less? true it's hard reading but then again nothing is gained from easy reading now is it?  

and I'm pretty sure you do not see the contents of my inbox and all of the thanks and praise I have gotten over the years from informing people on various topics.  so while your head of granite may be imperious to obtaining any real knowledge on economics there are many whose isn't.


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## bio-chem (May 3, 2013)

exphys88 said:


> There are also historians who think the holocaust never happened too, so what?  The scientists you mention are the product of early childhood brainwashing.
> 
> Evolution doesn't need to disprove miracles that defy natural laws.  The onus is on the person making miraculous claims.  That's like me saying that my I'm from outer space, and since you can't disprove it, you lose.
> 
> ...



read what I wrote. I said his theory on evolution due to NATURAL SELECTION. I didn't say he came up with the theory of evolution. His addition to this science was the thought natural selection being responsible for evolution.


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## bio-chem (May 3, 2013)

LAM said:


> I read the study years ago jack-ass long before you ever did, so yes I'm quite familiar with it.  and economics is dry and boring but why would it be anything less? true it's hard reading but then again nothing is gained from easy reading now is it?
> 
> and I'm pretty sure you do not see the contents of my inbox and all of the thanks and praise I have gotten over the years from informing people on various topics.  so while your head of granite may be imperious to obtaining any real knowledge on economics there are many whose isn't.



Yet again an assumption of intellectual superiority based upon nothing. You have no idea when I read Dunnig-Krueger, and I don't care when you did. It obviously doesn't matter who read it first, because you didn't understand either it, or what I wrote. Please keep posting however because each time you do you further prove my point that you are an ignorant fuck who assumes he is smarter than everyone else without basis. You've been completely owned on this, and many other subjects on this website yet you have blinded yourself to this fact by locking yourself up in your mothers basement and staring at your computer screen in a vain effort to fuel your own importance. 

Couldn't cut it in the real world so you had to run here to make yourself a king? dude, get a life.


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## Bowden (May 3, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> Actually, it did come directly from the employees.



To my understanding it was the company contributions to the pension fund that were diverted, not employee contributions that were diverted.

Hostess diverted workers' pension funds, company admits | BenefitsPro

The company was, at the time, teetering on the brink of bankruptcy,  and made an announcement that it would no longer fund its pension plan.  But company contributions were still coming and ended being used to help  prop up the economically embattled bakery, even after Hostess declared  bankruptcy in Jan. 2012.
 Because those contributions came from Hostess and not its employees,  pension experts say the scheme probably did not violate federal pension  laws, though lawyer James P. Baker says the move was known as "betrayal  without remedy."


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## Dale Mabry (May 3, 2013)

Bowden said:


> To my understanding it was the company contributions to the pension fund that were diverted, not employee contributions that were diverted.
> 
> Hostess diverted workers' pension funds, company admits | BenefitsPro
> 
> ...



Aptly named.  Whether the money Hostess stole was put in to the pension by Hostess or from the employees is irrelevant, it was the employees' money.


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## LAM (May 4, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> Yet again an assumption of intellectual superiority based upon nothing. You have no idea when I read Dunnig-Krueger, and I don't care when you did. It obviously doesn't matter who read it first, because you didn't understand either it, or what I wrote. Please keep posting however because each time you do you further prove my point that you are an ignorant fuck who assumes he is smarter than everyone else without basis. You've been completely owned on this, and many other subjects on this website yet you have blinded yourself to this fact by locking yourself up in your mothers basement and staring at your computer screen in a vain effort to fuel your own importance.
> 
> Couldn't cut it in the real world so you had to run here to make yourself a king? dude, get a life.



lol...you scrawny fucking tool!   LMAO


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## bio-chem (May 5, 2013)

LAM said:


> lol...you scrawny fucking tool!   LMAO



 that's your weak ass comeback. Bring it you pussy internet tough guy


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## Swiper (Oct 11, 2013)

UNIONS FAIL TO LIVE UP TO EMPLOYMENT STANDARDS


Summary
 ? Seven local labor unions are the primary backers of SeaTac?s Prop. 1.
 ? 64% of local union employees earn less than the living wage for a single adult with two children. 
 ? 26% of local union employees earn less than a full time $15 an hour minimum wage.
 ? The average local union leader makes $114,851 per year, placing them in the top
 10% of income earners. 
 ? All of the national union CEOs are in the top 5% of income earners. 
 ? Local unions are generating record revenue. 
 ? Unions are promoting Prop. 1 as an organizing tool. 
 ? Neither unions nor businesses should be subjected to arbitrary and burdensome
 employment regulations.

Introduction
An initiative on the ballot this November in the City of SeaTac proposes to raise the minimum wage 
from $9.19 an hour to $15 an hour for some transportation and hospitality employees. Proposition 1 
would also impose a number of other requirements on local businesses, including one which would 
force employers to favor full-time employees over part-time. 
Labor unions are the key proponents of Prop. 1?although they are exempt from its requirements. In 
addition to representing employees working for private and public employers, unions have their own 
staff. Federal law requires that unions representing any private sector workers report certain financial 
information, including staff salaries, to the Department of Labor each year. 1 
These union reports, however, indicate that the same unions trying to place minimum wage and other 
requirements on targeted SeaTac businesses frequently fail to live up to the employment standards they 
advocate. While union employees struggle to get by on low pay, union CEOs receive six-figure salaries. 
Though the unions are capable of paying their workers $15 an hour full-time salaries, they instead 
spend their funds on attempting to impose Prop. 1 on targeted businesses as an organizing tool.

Compensation of Union Staff
According to reports filed with the state Public Disclosure Commission, unions have provided $619,986 
in resources to pass Prop. 1, comprising 96 percent of the funds raised by the Yes! For SeaTac political 
committee. Most of the remaining four percent came from organizations which receive union funding, 
such as Puget Sound Sage.2
 Union contributions dwarf the $294,019 businesses have raised to counter 
the initiative. 
The union-funded Yes! For SeaTac campaign website states that a $15 minimum wage is necessary to 
help low-wage workers ?make ends meet.?3
 Yet the 2012 reports filed by the seven union locals who have 
supported Prop. 1 in SeaTac indicate that many low-level union employees are poorly paid in comparison

All told, 64% of union staffers earn less than the living wage for a single 
adult with two children in Washington, and over one-quarter earn less 
than the proposed $15/hr. full-time minimum wage for SeaTac.


http://myfreedomfoundation.com/docLib/20131009_SeaTacUNIONS2013PRINT.pdf


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## LAM (Oct 11, 2013)

Swiper said:


> UNIONS FAIL TO LIVE UP TO EMPLOYMENT STANDARDS
> 
> 
> Summary
> ...



and what's your point?  getting rid of all labor union will put upward pressure on wages?  you won't find a single economic report in the world that states such.


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## Swiper (Oct 11, 2013)

LAM said:


> and what's your point?  getting rid of all labor union will put upward pressure on wages?  you won't find a single economic report in the world that states such.



no, just pointing out their hypocrisy.


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## LAM (Oct 13, 2013)

Swiper said:


> no, just pointing out their hypocrisy.



nobody truly fights for labor anymore in the US, the left abandoned labor in the 80's and the right has done everything to suppress labor over the past century, and this is the end result.

http://anticap.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/low-wage.jpg


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## hoyle21 (Oct 13, 2013)

I just found out minimum wage in Australia is 16.88 and the haven't had a recession in 20 years.


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## LAM (Oct 13, 2013)

hoyle21 said:


> I just found out minimum wage in Australia is 16.88 and the haven't had a recession in 20 years.



it's pretty obvious that the low wagers have no concept of how economics works in reality, especially sustainability in a consumption based economy.   I find it comical that they can't understand something so simple.


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