# Confused about my damn insulin spike/PWO shake



## Skate67 (Sep 20, 2005)

I used to take a knock-off celltech kind of creatine that had a delivery system built into it.  But i got a huge amount of magnesium-creatine monohydrate powder for a really good price so i took that instead.

Now i DID use the search button for this but im going to ask anyway.

What i used to do was (immediately following workout):

-Get in my car and mix up the creatine (with the built in delivery) immediately with the water and consume it right then and there. simple.

-Get home and make a shake that was made of: 2 scoops whey, 2% milk, ice cream, tbsp of peanut butter and a banana (i have a super fast metabolism and i was trying to slow it down  ).

But now that im using that other creatine i started taking orange juice (not from concentrate) along with an apple that i sprinkled a little but of white sugar on lol and the creatine.  Will this work for a spike or do i HAVE to get dextrose.  Can it be done with out the dextrose effectively?

I later learned that fats are no good for PWO!!   .  There goes my old shake out the window.  So im thinking of going 2 scoops whey, _skim_ milk and thats basically it for the shake.  I eat a pwo meal that has brown rice and tuna/chicken/lean beef veggies about an hour after the shake

Im trying to bulk so im not too concerned with what you throw at me.

Thanks.


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## Emma-Leigh (Sep 20, 2005)

ST240 said:
			
		

> What i used to do was (immediately following workout):
> 
> -Get in my car and mix up the creatine (with the built in delivery) immediately with the water and consume it right then and there. simple.
> 
> -Get home and make a shake that was made of: 2 scoops whey, 2% milk, ice cream, tbsp of peanut butter and a banana (i have a super fast metabolism and i was trying to slow it down  ).


Umm... yeah... you have probably realised that this is not the best thing do to PWO... 



> But now that im using that other creatine i started taking orange juice (not from concentrate) along with an apple that i sprinkled a little but of white sugar on lol and the creatine.  Will this work for a spike or do i HAVE to get dextrose.  Can it be done with out the dextrose effectively?


Firstly - using orange juice and an apple will not spike insulin. Most fruits don't spike insulin. If you wanted to do fruit then grape juice would probably be your best option as it is higher in glucose.

If you want a good insulin spike then your dextrose is your best bet - but you don't just have to do the powder. You can be more inventive - go and take a look in your local supermarket - there are many candies that have glucose as their first ingredient (not sucrose, you want something with glucose or dextrose) and these will work just as effectively. If you do not want to do pure dextrose (and I don't really suggest it) I would still suggest some carbohydrates - a PWO shake with something like:

creatine
skim milk
dextrose
ripe banana

You could do any number of combinations... 


But the insulin spike is not essential - it helps, but it is not essential. 


> I later learned that fats are no good for PWO!!   .  There goes my old shake out the window.  So im thinking of going 2 scoops whey, _skim_ milk and thats basically it for the shake.


You want more carbs than this PWO - see above shake for something better.



> I eat a pwo meal that has brown rice and tuna/chicken/lean beef veggies about an hour after the shake


Great.  But if you use tuna/chicken then you might want to add a little healthy fat to the meal as well (eg: olive oil).


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## Skate67 (Sep 20, 2005)

ahh thanks for the great response... 

You would suggest eating _candy_ PWO!?!  I think id rather do the dextrose thing rather than candy.  I have been adding a banana, but doesnt a banana contain a lot of fat? or is it just high in carbs?  Would a glass of grape juice and the banana in the shake suffice for a spike?

Also, for that PWO meal i have,  can i use cream as a souce of fat? (i was looking in that sticky for diets and the slow burner diet used a lot of cream for a fat source)

*Edit*: Nevermind i checked calorieking and theres only 0.4 g of fat in a 9" banana!  wow i always thought they were high in fat.


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## Platinum (Sep 20, 2005)

Nah, not much fat in bananas mate. A lot of potassium though.


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## Jodi (Sep 20, 2005)

ST240 said:
			
		

> ahh thanks for the great response...
> 
> You would suggest eating _candy_ PWO!?!  I think id rather do the dextrose thing rather than candy.  I have been adding a banana, but doesnt a banana contain a lot of fat? or is it just high in carbs?  Would a glass of grape juice and the banana in the shake suffice for a spike?
> 
> ...


I think what she means is something like the US Smarties - they are pure dextrose and taste better than a spoonful of dextrose in a PWO shake.


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## Skate67 (Sep 20, 2005)

Jodi said:
			
		

> I think what she means is something like the US Smarties - they are pure dextrose and taste better than a spoonful of dextrose in a PWO shake.



wow are you serious?!  so you would honestly suggest eating the smarties?  what about the grape juice/banana combo   

Are the US smarties = Cdn smarties?


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## Jodi (Sep 20, 2005)

Personally I don't do a PWO insulin spike because my metabolism is slower so I just use oats for carbs.  But for fast metabolisms, if done properly, can be beneficial.  No US Smarties are different than Canadian smarties.  Canadian smarties are chocolate, US smarties are sugary candies.


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## Emma-Leigh (Sep 21, 2005)

ST240 said:
			
		

> You would suggest eating _candy_ PWO!?!  I think id rather do the dextrose thing rather than candy.  I have been adding a banana, but doesnt a banana contain a lot of fat? or is it just high in carbs?  Would a glass of grape juice and the banana in the shake suffice for a spike?


Ok, by candy I mean some high glucose containing sweet food of any kind. eg: many people use tootsie rolls, starbursts, candycorn, jellybeans etc.

Many people also do workout drinks with gatorade powder.

Others also use high glycaemic foods like dried dates, cereal (corn pops, corn-flakes, rice bubbles), white rice or white potato. Baby cereal (often called baby rice) is also high GI and ok for post-workout meals (it is similar to adding powdered oats to your workout).

Also, for that PWO meal i have,  can i use cream as a souce of fat? (i was looking in that sticky for diets and the slow burner diet used a lot of cream for a fat source).

What you want to do (if you do want to spike insulin) is up to you... So if you are not comfortable with sweets then pick something you are comfortable with... 

And, yes, a banana is just carbs (a mix of glucose, fructose, fibre, starch...). And a banana and grape juice would probably not 'spike' insulin a lot (both being fruits) - but may be ok if you don't want a high insulin spike...


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## gregster (Sep 21, 2005)

This is the best article I've found on PWO and the insulin spike

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/windowofopportunity.php


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## Skate67 (Sep 21, 2005)

lol i think im just gonna go the dextrose w/ grape juice route... seems the simplest and most convienent.  but would the whipping cream be a good source of fat for the pwo MEAL? or should i use something else.

*Edit*:  How much dextrose with or without a cup of grape juice would be necessary for a spike? (im thinking of just throwing the dextrose right in the PWO shake along with the creatine/whey/banana/milk)


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## Emma-Leigh (Sep 21, 2005)

ST240 said:
			
		

> lol i think im just gonna go the dextrose w/ grape juice route...


Seems good.



> but would the whipping cream be a good source of fat for the pwo MEAL? or should i use something else.


No - use something else. whipping cream = saturated fats which is not your best choice.

Try olive oil, avocado, nuts (esp walnuts), seeds (esp linseeds) or fatty fish/fish oils (esp salmon).



> *Edit*:  How much dextrose with or without a cup of grape juice would be necessary for a spike? (im thinking of just throwing the dextrose right in the PWO shake along with the creatine/whey/banana/milk)


There is not really a set 'limit' to how much you will need to increase your insulin enough - but I would do something between 25 to 50g depending on how many carbs you are getting from your other sources and your total weight and goals. 

Now - dextrose is basically 1g of carbs per ml volume... so 0.33 cups (77 ml) dextrose = 75.9g carbs... Which means you don't need a lot. 

You could try something like:
1 med banana (27g carbs)
1 cup skim milk (12g carbs, 8g protein)
2 tbs (30 ml) dextrose (30g carbs)
1 scoop whey (~25g protein)
creatine
TOTAL = 69g carbs, ~33g protein


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## Skate67 (Sep 21, 2005)

just the answer i was looking for   . Thanks tons Emma-Leigh.

*Edit*: Err, the kind of fats i should be avoiding are saturated and trans correct? what about monosaturated fats?  I know that poly*un*saturated fats are EFAs    .


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## fUnc17 (Sep 21, 2005)

whey, banana, oats, pure honey and your set


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## Skate67 (Sep 21, 2005)

fUnc17 said:
			
		

> whey, banana, oats, pure honey and your set



you sure thats enuff to spike?


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## Emma-Leigh (Sep 21, 2005)

ST240 said:
			
		

> you sure thats enuff to spike?


Not really - neither the banana nor the honey will spike insulin, due to the higher levels of fructose in them...

I would also be concerned with having this higher % of fructose - although fructose is fine (and small amounts PWO are a very beneficial thing) you get too much and you run into problems.

Oats will not really spike insulin either - due to the higher fibre content they have a lower GI and II....

Whey will cause a marked rise in insulin, but the degree is not HUGE and if you are really looking for a marked insulin increase then it might not be enough.

You could add some oats if you wanted - but I would drop the honey... So you could still go for something like:
whey (1.5 scoops) - ~37g protein
banana (1 medium) - 27g carbs
Milk (1 cup) - 12g carbs, 8g protein
Oats (0.33 cups) - 18g carbs, 3g protein, 1.7g fat
Dextrose (30g) - 30g carbs

Total = ~580 cals, 87g carbs, 48g protein

If you are bulking then you might want some more carbs and/or protein (depending on your weight)... Generally speaking, as long as you are fairly lean and you are training to a sufficient intensity, you want about:
0.5g x weight in carbs
0.25-0.33g x weight in protein

So the above would be ok if you were ~170-175 pounds (and less than 12% body fat).


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## Emma-Leigh (Sep 22, 2005)

ST240 said:
			
		

> just the answer i was looking for   . Thanks tons Emma-Leigh.
> 
> *Edit*: Err, the kind of fats i should be avoiding are saturated and trans correct? what about monosaturated fats?  I know that poly*un*saturated fats are EFAs    .


mono unsaturated fats are good and you should be getting the highest amount of fats in your diet from mono-unsaturated fats (olive oil, avocado, some nuts/seeds).

I think LAMs suggested ratio is pretty good - something like:
~ 50% mono-unsaturated
~ 30% poly-unsaturated (with an omega 3: omega 6 ratio of ~1:1)
< 20% saturated
<0.5% trans (as little as possible)


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## Skate67 (Sep 22, 2005)

thanks


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