# 4Aderm & Noraderm Dosing Questions. Please Help



## Gettin'old (Apr 14, 2003)

I have 2 bottles of 4 Aderm and 2 bottles of Noraderm. I researched this a shitload a long time ago, but have been sitting on the pro hormones for months now. I think I'm getting ready to go. Here are my questions:

1. My understanding is I will apply twice a day. Is this correct?

2. If I'm applying twice a day, how many squirts of each do I take?
(please tell me what the squirts are equivalent to. For example 4 squirts is 200 mgs etc).

3. For those of you who are giving me dosing suggestions, if I follow your dosing advice, how many weeks will my two bottles last me?

Thanks very much.


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## ZECH (Apr 14, 2003)

it depends if you want to go hardcore or not?


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## ZECH (Apr 14, 2003)

4-ad can be dosed at 5-10 squirts twice a day...the latter being hardcore..............1.5 squirts contain 50mg 4ad. So 10 squirts would be 333.3/mg per day. If it is your first cycle, 5 squirts twice a day would get you good results.


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## Twin Peak (Apr 15, 2003)

4 Aderm (the 8 oz bottle) contains 12g of 4-diol.  The bottle has 360 squirts.

3 squirts = 100mg

I'd suggest 600mg (9 sq. X 2) for your first dosing, personally, if you around 200 pounds or bigger.

At this dose, each bottle will last 20 days, which is a decent length for a cycle (I prefer 3-4 weeks).

Not sure about Nor, but I'll get back to you.


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## Gettin'old (Apr 15, 2003)

*Thanks all*

Thanks All. I weigh 190. Also, I planned to emphasize the Nor on this first "cycle." I planned to use 4ad to a lesser extent, to mitigate the lethargy and libido issues.

How should I divide this up, squirt wise?


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## Twin Peak (Apr 15, 2003)

BTW, Nor has teh same amount as the 4-diol.

I have no experience with the Nor, but based on what I have read, I'd up the dose for Nor.  Perhaps 800 daily.

I don't think you need to combine the two.

BTW, how are the knees?  I have heard that each should help you there.  My shoulder problem went away completely, at 600 mg of 4-diol by the second week.


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## Gettin'old (Apr 15, 2003)

You have a damn good memory Twin to recall the knee issues. Thanks for asking. I'm still doing battle with them. I am very disciplined and work very, very hard to try to overcome the problem. But, the medial head of the quad (the weakness of which is a major contributing factor to the patellar movement) just will not grow.

So, here I am hoping a cycle will help me "grow my legs out of the knee problem." 

I'm worried about the lethargy and libido issues and also want some good muscle, rather than just water weight. That's why I thought I would throw in the 4ad. The more I think about it, I'm considering going more with the 4ad. 

Any input is appreciated.


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## Twin Peak (Apr 15, 2003)

The 4ad will cause more water weight (from the conversion to estrogen) than the Nor.  I believe.

I haven't heard lethargy being an issue with the Nor.  I'd do them separately, were I you.  To establish a baseline of how you are effected by each.


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## ZECH (Apr 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> The 4ad will cause more water weight (from the conversion to estrogen) than the Nor.  I believe.
> 
> I haven't heard lethargy being an issue with the Nor.  I'd do them separately, were I you.  To establish a baseline of how you are effected by each.


The Nor will shut your natural test down quicker and harder than 1-test. The libido will go quick with Nor. If that is a concern, do more 4/ad than Nor.


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## Gettin'old (Apr 16, 2003)

Those are major concerns dg. I liked the idea of the Nor b/c of the hair loss issue. But, I'm 34 and have a major full head of hair and there aren't hair issues on my Mom's side of the family. 

I was going to do the Nor and stack with the 4ad to address the libido and lethargy issues. Now, I'm not quite sure what to do. 

As you know, dg, I also have the scrip for some test.

I'm going to have to keep thinking about this to figure it out.


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## Twin Peak (Apr 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> The Nor will shut your natural test down quicker and harder than 1-test. The libido will go quick with Nor. If that is a concern, do more 4/ad than Nor.



I have seen feedback from a few different users that suggests this is not a problem, in practice.

With test, it is.


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## Gettin'old (Apr 16, 2003)

Twin, are you saying natural test production will be a big problem if I use the testosterone injection along with the phs?


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## Twin Peak (Apr 16, 2003)

I don't know.  Don't know about test injections at all.  But I would *suspect* of course.

Whenever you are administering exogenous test or other hormones, your body stops producing test.  This is why proper post cycle recovery is critical.  6-oxo will help bring natural test back up.

BTW, I have not had libido issues while on 1 Test.


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## Gettin'old (Apr 16, 2003)

Thanks much. I'm trying to figure out what to do with the products I have  - - the scripted test, which should arrive today, but will be too low of a dose; and the noraderm and/or 4aderm.

I need to send another post asking, if I go ahead with the PHs, will supplementation with the 200 mg of test every 2 weeks make any difference.


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## Twin Peak (Apr 16, 2003)

That I don't know.


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## Arnold (Apr 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Gettin'old *_
> Twin, are you saying natural test production will be a big problem if I use the testosterone injection along with the phs?



most definitely, injection of the testosterone alone will affect natural T levels/production.

there is a feedback loop, basically when your T levels get high the pituitary gland is signaled and LH production is decreased, which decreases test production. (obviously a very simplistic explanation)


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## Gettin'old (Apr 16, 2003)

Ok Prince. I think from my research I understand what you're saying. However, wouldn't this result from use of almost any AS or PH? 

Isn't this one of the accompanying results of using these substances; addressed by products at the end of the cycle.

My natural test is not "low" it is only in the low range of normal. I'm trying to figure out how to get some anabolic results out of my scrip for test. I now know the dosage isn't high enough. So, I'm contemplating either getting more test or supplementing with PHs.


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## Arnold (Apr 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Gettin'old *_
> However, wouldn't this result from use of almost any AS or PH?



Yes, that is why AS and PH's are 'cycled' and things like clomid are added at the end of the cycle.

If you remain on HRT your natrual T production will shut down completely anyway, so not sure why you're worried.


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## Twin Peak (Apr 16, 2003)

See Prince, I happily admit when I don't know something, or am unsure. 

Old -- presumably the script will put in you in the high range, thus aiding growth, as if you had superior genes.  Also, I would *THINK* that exogenous T low enough to keep you in the normal range would not lower endogenouse T production, since that is why it is administered as a script.  This is just a hunch, and clearly there is a FACTUAL answer out there, I just don't know it.

Am I wrong Prince?


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## Gettin'old (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm not on HRT. I've never done any AS or PHs. I'm ready to do some but don't plan on doing continuous cycles or being on test indefinitely. 

I would like to find a suitable AS or PH cycle. Since I have the 200mg of script test and I also have noraderm and 4aderm, I was trying to figure out a good cycle combining one or both  of the PHs with the minimal test.

If I did this, would I need clomid at the end, for such minimal test, or would 6oxo and fuzu do the trick?

Will the test have any anabolic effect when used in conjunction with the PHs?


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## Arnold (Apr 16, 2003)

Depends on how high his Rx elevates his testosterone. But, it's pretty typical for the testes to shut down completely when on HRT, which is fine as long as his Rx is keeping him within the 260/ng to 860/ng range (I think that's the current range that's considered normal).

If he plans on remaining on HRT, there is not much of a concern for his natural T production IMO. I am just surprised that he got the Rx if his range is within normal, even at the low end of normal. Most docs will not do this due to the strict regulation on testosterone dispension by our lovely FDA. It's not worth the trouble or losing their license over.

Gettin'old, what did your test come back at, ng?


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## Gettin'old (Apr 16, 2003)

I don't have the paper work right in front of me but recall, with fair certainty, it was in the mid 300 range. 

My physician treats "issues" aggressively and is very easy with which to deal.


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## ZECH (Apr 16, 2003)

GO, I have never had a problem with libido either while on 1-test or 4ad. Actually 4/ad will make you a horny little devil! I think I would go ahead and do your cycle like planned. Do only 4 week cycles and you shouldn't have much worries. I think it is longer cycles of 8 weeks or more that really takes long recovery times. Although at 4 weeks it will start to decrease, it should be fine!


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## ZECH (Apr 16, 2003)

BTW, I love 4/ad and have done heavy dosing. I do have hair issues on my mother's family side, but I have not noticed ANY hair problems!


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## Gettin'old (Apr 16, 2003)

Right on Dg! I wasn't thinking of doing more than 3-4 weeks anyway. I'm conservative, and a bit wary (nervous) of this stuff in the first place. As noted, I've never done any before. Also, you probably remember me posting thousands of threads months ago while researching and gathering info on PH.

If I do the 4AD with the test, will I need clomid, or will 6 oxo and fuzu be sufficient for post cycle. I also just ordered some, I believe, formestat or Aromazap, for during cycle "safety issues." Will these be sufficient?


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## Gettin'old (Apr 16, 2003)

If I take the 200mg of test, by injection, every two weeks, what kind of dosing should I do of the 4AD. Do you think I should leave the Noraderm out entirely - - save it for later?  A lot of people have talked very highly of the noraderm.  But, I will say, I'm much more interested in growing muscle than in retaining water.

BTW, DG, what kind of results have you had on the 4ad?


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## Twin Peak (Apr 16, 2003)

I have heard that by the 3rd or 4th week, test is completely shut down.


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## ZECH (Apr 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Gettin'old *_
> Right on Dg! I wasn't thinking of doing more than 3-4 weeks anyway. I'm conservative, and a bit wary (nervous) of this stuff in the first place. As noted, I've never done any before. Also, you probably remember me posting thousands of threads months ago while researching and gathering info on PH.
> 
> If I do the 4AD with the test, will I need clomid, or will 6 oxo and fuzu be sufficient for post cycle. I also just ordered some, I believe, formestat or Aromazap, for during cycle "safety issues." Will these be sufficient?


6-oxo and Fuzu works great. That is what I always use. These ph's are not strong enough to cause gyno.(Unless you may be prone to it...but I haven't seen or heard it). I also found a site today where you can buy liquid Clomid and Nolva. Cheap to. Like $25 for 50ml. I think that would be enough for post cycle. Cheaper and probably would work better. I'll post the site later. It is legal too........they market it as "for research purpose only".


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## ZECH (Apr 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Gettin'old *_
> If I take the 200mg of test, by injection, every two weeks, what kind of dosing should I do of the 4AD. Do you think I should leave the Noraderm out entirely - - save it for later?  A lot of people have talked very highly of the noraderm.  But, I will say, I'm much more interested in growing muscle than in retaining water.
> 
> BTW, DG, what kind of results have you had on the 4ad?


To keep receptors from competing against each other, I would keep it simple. Do the test injects with 4/ad and keep the NOR for a later cycle. Don't knock the water either.......with water retention you make a better environment for muscle to grow. That is why I love 4ad. It also helps my joint pain. I would pick it over 1-test. Don't get me wrong, I like 1-test also! The two together can't be beat!


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## Gettin'old (Apr 16, 2003)

Hmmmm.. . . .  that sounds tremendous for me b/c one of my primary goals is to stengthen and grow my legs. I've got skinny legs with abnormally small and weak medial head of my quads. This is a bane of my existence b/c it creates a lot of knee problems, which in turn, prevent me from growing my legs. 

I've been hammering away on the legs and the quads for months now with very little gains. Maybe this will get me some progress. I think I'm going to follow your advice DG. I'll keep you posted on my results. I believe I will start in about a week.


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## ZECH (Apr 16, 2003)

Cool!!


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## ZECH (Apr 16, 2003)

Here is some background GO..........
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=11058
I'm getting ready to update some too.


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## Gettin'old (Apr 16, 2003)

I have two bottles of 4Aderm, which I believe is sufficient for 4 weeks. If I don't encounter problems and complete the 4 weeks, eat and train like a beast, can I expect to pack on at least 5 lbs?

I know results very for everyone.


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## Gettin'old (Apr 16, 2003)

I had checked out your results post recently DG. Those are  nice results. Was your cycle a total of 8 weeks or did you stack the two products for a total of 4 weeks?

I have a site to order DMSO if you need it.


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## ZECH (Apr 16, 2003)

Each 8oz bottle will last you 4 weeks. So two bottles will be enough for 8 weeks(2 cycles). Yes my very first cycle was 8 weeks. One bottle of 1-test then a bottle of 4ad. Don't think I will do 8 weeks again. You may well indeed put on close to 10 lbs if you increase your calories, up your protein intake and up your training by 1.5 times!


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## Gettin'old (Apr 16, 2003)

How long have you been off? How much of your gains have you kept?  Thanks for all the info.


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## ZECH (Apr 16, 2003)

Check my thread later. I'm trying to update it now!!


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