# First Cycle and PCT



## heavyiron (Dec 11, 2009)

*Testosterone cycle design*​ 

Almost weekly someone posts on the Chemical Enhancement forum asking about first cycle advice. The most common questions are; “what steroid should I take?” “How long should I take it?” and “What will the effects be?” There are literally dozens of steroids available and that makes it difficult for a first time user to choose. The following information will attempt to provide enough information for a first time user to make an educated decision about anabolic androgenic steroid use.
Testosterone is one of the most effective, safe and available steroids today, therefore I believe Testosterone is the best first cycle choice. The following text outlines the benefits and risks of Testosterone administration based on a clinical human trial of 61 healthy men in 2001. The purpose of the trial was to determine the dose dependency of testosterone’s effects on fat-free mass and muscle performance. In this trial 61 men, 18-35years old were randomized into 5 groups receiving weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, 600 mg of Testosterone Enanthate for 20 weeks. They had previous weight-lifting experience and normal T levels. Their nutritional intake was standardized and they did not undertake any strength training during the trial. The only two groups that reported significant muscle building benefits were the 300 and 600 mg groups so any dose lower than 300mg will not be considered in this essay. 12 men participated in the 300 mg group and 13 men in the 600 mg group.
600mg of Testosterone a week for 20 weeks resulted in the following benefits. Increased fat free mass, muscle strength, muscle power, muscle volume, hemoglobin and IGF-1.
The same 600 mg administration resulted in 2 side effects. HDL cholesterol was negatively correlated and 2 men developed acne.
The normal range for total T in men is 241-827 ng/dl according to Labcorp and 260-1000 ng/dl according to Quest Laboratories. The normal range for IGF-1 is 81-225 according to Labcorp. Total T and IGF-1 levels were taken after 16 weeks and resulted in the following;

*Total Testosterone*
300 mg group-1,345 ng/dl a *691* ng increase from baseline
600 mg group-2,370 ng/dl a *1,737* ng increase from baseline
*IGF-1 *
300 mg group-388 ng/dl a *74* ng increase from baseline
600 mg group-304 ng/dl a *77* ng increase from baseline

Body composition was measured after 20 weeks.

*Fat Free Mass by underwater weighing*
300 mg group-*5.2kg (11.4lbs)* increase
600 mg group-*7.9kg (17.38lbs)* increase
*Fat Mass by underwater weighing*
300 mg group*-.5kg (1.1lbs)* decrease
600 mg group-*1.1kg (2.42lbs)* decrease
*Thigh Muscle Volume*
300 mg group-*84* cubic centimeter increase
600 mg group-*126* cubic centimeter increase
*Quadriceps Muscle Volume*
300 mg group-*43* cubic centimeter increase
600 mg group-*68* cubic centimeter increase
*Leg Press Strength*
300 mg group-*72.2kg (158.8lbs)* increase 
600 mg group-*76.5kg (168.3lbs)* increase
*Leg Power*
300 mg group-*38.6* watt increase
600 mg group-*48.1* watt increase
*Hemoglobin*
300 mg group-*6.1* gram per liter increase
600 mg group-*14.2* gram per liter increase
*Plasma HDL Cholesterol*
300 mg group-*5.7* mg/dl decrease
600 mg group-*8.4* mg/dl decrease
*Acne*
300 mg group-7 of the 12 men developed acne
600 mg group-2 of the 13 men developed acne

There were no significant changes in PSA or liver enzymes at any dose up to 600mg. However, long-term effects of androgen administration on the prostate, cardiovascular risk, and behavior are unknown. The study demonstrated that there is a dose dependant relationship with testosterone administration. In other words the more testosterone administered the greater the muscle building effects and potential for side effects.

Given the results of the study and based on years of personal experience I believe the first time user can safely use between 300-600 mg of testosterone enanthate or cypionate per week for 8-12 weeks. Because it is desirable to have even blood androgen levels I advise at least 2 equal injections per week. The following graph demonstrates that testosterone cypionate peaks within 1-2 days after injection and falls off to almost baseline by day 10. Therefore waiting 7 days between injections of cypionate would cause wide fluctuations in blood androgen levels.

*Pharmacokinetics of Testosterone cypionate Injection*






Source: Schulte-Beerbuhl, 1980
Figure. Pharmacokinetics of 200mg Testosterone cypionate injection. Source: Comparison of Testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of Testosterone enanthate or Testosterone cypionate. Schulte-Beerbuhl M, Nieschlag E. Fertility and Sterility 33 (1980) 201-3.

If a first time user wanted to use 600 mg of cypionate or enanthate per week he would inject 300 mg on Tuesday and another 300 mg on Saturday each week for 10 weeks. When injecting long heavy esters like cypionate with this frequency I tend to have less acne then 1 injection per week.
There are a number of esters which provide varying release times. Acetate or propionate esters extend the release time of testosterone a couple of days. In contrast, a deconate ester prolongs the release of testosterone about 3 weeks. Testosterone enanthate and cypionate are almost identical esters. The use of an ester allows for a less frequent injection schedule than using a water based testosterone like suspension which has no ester at all and is rapidly in and out of your system after injection. The published release times are not exact and are many times based on a single injection not many multiple injections which can delay the release of the hormone. Other factors affect release times of esters such as scar tissue and the muscle group injected. Only a blood test can confirm when the active hormone has cleared your system.
Esters not only effect release times but also the potency of the Testosterone as esters make up part of the steroid weight. This must be taken into account when calculating dosages. The longer the release time the less free hormone. For example propionate is about 15% more potent mg. for mg. then enanthate so 500mg of propionate would equal about 575 mg. of enanthate. The following chart illustrates the free base equivalents for several compounds.




Although it was not indicated in the trial, during or after the steroid cycle some men are prone to gynecomastia which is the formation of female like breast tissue. This is due to excessive estrogen as the body tries to balance out the sex hormones. A selective estrogen receptor modulator or S.E.R.M. such as Tamoxifen can be used effectively to combat gynecamastia in an emergency as it competes for the estrogen receptor which in turn inhibits estrogens effects. It is highly recommended that a S.E.R.M. be available during treatment of Testosterone. 10-40mg daily is an effective dose however dosage is dependant on how much testosterone is administered as well as the individual himself.
The decision to use steroids should not be taken lightly and should be the last consideration after implementing a solid nutritional, training and recovery plan. It is advised to get blood work when using these medications.

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men;
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/281/6/E1172



*Ancillaries during the cycle*​ 


*Aromatase Inhibitor*​ 

I briefly wrote about using Tamoxifen above for emergency gynecomastia treatment however I am convinced that there is a better strategy for controlling estrogen during a steroid cycle. Rather than waiting for the side effects of estrogen to present an aromatase inhibitor like Arimidex or Aromasin should be used on cycle to control Estrogen and keep free testosterone levels high. 0.5mg-1mg Arimidex daily OR 10-25mg Aromasin daily. Start with the lower dose and then see how that controls water retention, blood pressure and libido and make adjustments as needed. A blood test would be the most ideal way to determine the dosage of the AI. Free T needs to be in the high range and estradiol between 10-25 pg/ml.


*Human Chorionic Gonadotropin*​ 

Testosterone-Induced gonadotropin suppression tends to cause atrophy of the testes and decreases intratesticular testosterone. In other words, when a male administers testosterone his testes shrink because they are suppressed. A simple way to restore ITT levels and maintain the mass of the testes is to administer HCG during testosterone treatment. During a study it was determined that HCG is dose dependant and that approximately 300iu HCG taken every other day restored ITT levels. This is 1,050iu HCG weekly. I recommend 500iu twice weekly while on testosterone treatment. On a very heavy cycle a third dose of 500iu could be added but that is typically not needed. HCG will not only keep ITT levels and the mass of the testes normal but will also aid in keeping the male fertile. 


*Sample cycle with ancillaries*​ 

*Sunday 10mg Aromasin*
*Monday 10mg Aromasin/500iu HCG*
*Tuesday 10mg Aromasin/300mg Enanthate*
*Wednesday 10mg Aromasin*
*Thursday 10mg Aromasin*
*Friday 10mg Aromasin/500iu HCG*
*Saturday 10mg Aromasin/300mg Enanthate*​ 

For all you guys who want to add multiple compounds to your first course I advise against it because if you have side effects then you will not know which compound is causing the sides. I have gotton a ton of PM's over the years and there is always some reason that I am given for using multiple compounds on the first run but there really is no need. However my cycle sample above may not be for everyone so I am offering an alternative to the flat cycle design. If you want to run a first cycle with a little more horespower than you may want to consider a modified pyramiding cycle. I have done over 20 pyramid courses and must say they are my favorite way to run aas. The human body is always fighting for homeostasis so the concept is to increase dose before gains plateau. Based on the 2009 myostatin study we can design a cycle that is effective for 10 weeks using this strategy. The following first cycle is for men that want a little more performance with added risk while only using Testosterone. The first 5 weeks a standard dose is administered to evaluate how your body responds and to determine if sides are manageable. If sides are manageable then increase the dose.​ 
*Sample first course #2*​ 
*Week 1-5 600mg Testosterone weekly*
*Week 6-8 800mg Testosterone weekly*
*Week 9-10 1 gram Testosterone weekly*​ 
*10 mg Aromasin daily with the goal of keeping Estradiol between 10pg/ml-25pg/ml. Only blood work can confirm if you are in this range.*​ 
*500iu HCG twice weekly.*​ 

*Post Cycle therapy*​ 

I strongly believe that an AI should be used as long as there is an aromatizing compound being administered. In this case Testosterone and HCG aromatize therefore using an AI until these meds clear and a few weeks longer is what I am recommending. There is some evidence that adding Nolva to an AI does not increase the effectiveness of estro control therefore Nolva has no real advantage alongside an AI unless one is experiencing gyno. Additionally Nolva has been shown to reduce IGF-1 and GH levels when used alone. This is not a big deal on cycle as testosterone increases IGF-1 in a dose dependant relationship. However off cycle this is a problem. PCT is a fragile time and lower IGF-1 and GH levels is not desirable. I am recommending an AI that is specific to men that can be used on cycle and during PCT. It is my conclusion that Aromasin is the obvious choice. 

I recommend the following PCT protocol for esters like Cypionate and Enanthate;

*Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day. (You may use less HCG if your testes are normal in size AND you have been using HCG on cycle, i.e. 1,000iu HCG etd.)*

*100/100/100/50 Clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3 after aas ester clears)*

*20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)*

*3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses*

*10g creatine daily *

The HCG is administered BEFORE the ester clears to increase the mass of the testes and bring back ITT levels. This will allow the testes to sustain output of testosterone sooner.

Clomid is universally accepted as THE testosterone recovery tool. It blocks estrogen from the HPTA and stimulates the production of GNRH then initiates the production of LH, which in turn signals the testis (if not atrophied) to produce testosterone.

Aromasin or a similar aromatase inhibitor is for testosterone recovery and it is used to keep the testosterone/estrogen balance in favor of testosterone. It is also helps to keep any additionally occurring estrogen from HCG low to none.

Cortisol is catabolic. It is the enemy of all anabolism and must be kept in check. While it is blocked when under the influence of AAS, it is free to attach to the Anabolic Receptors (AR) once the steroids leave. Due to this blockage Cortisol tends to accumulate and increase when on. A low level is desirable however since it is important for other vital functions such as control of inflammation. Balance is the key. Vitimin C keeps the exercise induced rise of Cortisol in check.

The use of Creatine has shown to increase ATP metabolism and cellular water storage among many other things. This is beneficial because it provides for heightened nutrient storage and a slight increase in anabolism as well as workout stamina.

*References*

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men;

Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males

Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

special thanks to those men and women who have influnced my thinking over the years in regards to aas use.

*Written by heavyiron *


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## heavyiron (Dec 12, 2009)

There seems to be confusion when to use HCG and how much so I am posting the science for HCG use while on cycle. If you read this abstract you will see that about 1,000iu HCG weekly is needed to restore ITT levels (keep the testes running)


*Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression *
Andrea D. Coviello, Alvin M. Matsumoto, William J. Bremner, Karen L. Herbst, John K. Amory, Bradley D. Anawalt, Paul R. Sutton, William W. Wright, Terry R. Brown, Xiaohua Yan, Barry R. Zirkin and Jonathan P. Jarow 
Center for Research in Reproduction and Contraception, Geriatric Research Education and Clinical Center, Veteran Affairs Puget Sound Health Care System (A.M.M.), and Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine (A.D.C., W.J.B., J.K.A., B.D.A., P.R.S.), Seattle, Washington 98195; Department of Medicine, Charles R. Drew University (K.L.H.), Los Angeles, California 90059; Department of Urology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine (X.Y., J.P.J.), Baltimore, Maryland 21287; and Division of Reproductive Biology, Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health (W.W.W., T.R.B., X.Y., B.R.Z., J.P.J.), Baltimore, Maryland 21205 

Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Dr. Andrea D. Coviello, Feinberg School of Medicine, Northwestern University, Tarry 15-751, 303 East Chicago Avenue, Chicago, Illinois 60611-3008. E-mail: a-coviello@northwestern.edu.

*In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.*
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/5/2595 

full study;
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/90/5/2595


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## heavyiron (Dec 15, 2009)

WFC2010 said:


> good post,plenty info


Thank you!


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## heavyiron (Dec 22, 2009)

danstrass said:


> If running a 8 week with just prop and tren and testes stay at normal size is HCG neccesary?


For a easier recovery, yes.


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## heavyiron (Jan 18, 2010)

dnunes said:


> i am a runner and i am trying to be a stronger and faster! i need help getting their! i want to be faster...what can i take??? i dont want to gain lots of weight though! HELP!!!


Honestly creatine has been shown to be effective for explosive sports so I would use that with protein.


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## heavyiron (Jan 26, 2010)

doctormomen said:


> thank you for such info;
> so i would conclude that this is an example for best ,safest first cycle sample:
> Week 1-5 600mg Testosterone weekly
> Week 6-8 800mg Testosterone weekly
> ...


Yeah, it is kinda like my first cycle except I went a little higher on the Test.


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## heavyiron (Mar 12, 2010)

Mags said:


> Great thread, Heavyiron.
> 
> I'm looking to begin my first cycle in the next few months. I have a couple of queries regarding some of your points:
> 
> ...


 
1. Desensitization from HCG can occur at higher doses and when HCG is administered too frequently. In rat studies there was no additional benefit from HCG injected within 24 hours of the first inject. In fact significant benefit from HCG did not occur until 96 hours after the first inject so this supports the concept that there is a temporary desensitization from HCG in rats. Therefore HCG should be administered no more than twice per week OR every 96 hours. 

Until a few years ago very high doses were used when administering HCG but it was discovered that doses as low as 300iu eod restored ITT levels in supressed men using testosterone. Because of the rat study I mentioned above and this human trial I calculated the amount of HCG needed to restore baseline ITT at around 1,050iu weekly OR 500iu twice weekly.

2. I have read a ton of science and used these meds on and off for over 22 years. If I listened to the thread parrots I would tell you to use 500mg of testosterone weekly but I know many guys will be a little disapointed in the results of that so I am giving the 2nd option for those who want profound gains. Because the higher aas dose is only for a few weeks safety is buillt into the cycle design. Dose and duration are what increase risk in aas users. 4 weeks is quite short a duration so risks are still reasonable. My first course I gained 30lbs.


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## heavyiron (Mar 13, 2010)

Mags said:


> Also, I'm sure there's no great difference, but would 12 weeks instead of 10 be a good idea for a first cycle? I'm only thinking this as 10-12 weeks seems to be the common suggestion around here, and, given that most say enanthate/cypionate takes roughly two weeks to kick in, I was hoping to get a full 10 weeks worth of growth after the initial two-week 'warm up' as such (as I won't be using prop or dbol etc to kickstart).
> 
> Cheers.


 The body will reach homeostasis around week 8 or 9 unless you use increasing aas doses throughout the cycle because of myostatin levels so the flat cycle design will not work for 12 weeks.


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## heavyiron (Mar 14, 2010)

Mags said:


> Apologies if I've got this all wrong. Basically, unless the dose in increased as the time goes on (like the second cycle example), a 12-week cycle would yeild no greater gains than those of 10 weeks? Also, is 10 or 12 weeks the average duration because homeostasis has kicked in by then/the receptors are saturated?
> 
> Cheers.


 Receptor saturation is not scientifically proven and certainly not anywhere near these doses. Myostatin is what stalls gains on flat cycles. Read this link;

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/a...o-steroids-quit-working-8-10-weeks-cycle.html


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## heavyiron (Mar 21, 2010)

Mags said:


> Sorry to carry on with this, but would a 12-week cycle work if run it like the second, alternative cycle you suggested, i.e. increasing the dose throughout? Or will 12 weeks just be overkill, and the difference between that and 10 weeks neglible?
> 
> Cheers.


 
12 weeks is about as far as I would go pushing the dose like that. I prefer a little shorter duration for higher dose cycles so you don't stress out your body too much but I am not entirely opposed to it. I don't think the gains will differ in any large way between 10 and 12 weeks though..


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## heavyiron (Mar 21, 2010)

Mags said:


> Considering this will be my first cycle, I think I'll err on the side of caution and stick to 10 weeks then. I'll aim to increase dosage as the weeks progress, but that will depend entirely on sides and gains.
> 
> Cheers for the prompt and clear advice, Heavy.


 No problem, good luck and keep us posted. Make a new thread about your experiences and if you run into any problems we can tweak the course for you.


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## heavyiron (Apr 23, 2010)

raytracer said:


> Awesome thread and beautifully written...
> 
> I'm doing my first ever cycle and have chosen test prop for that.
> (Low sides esp., bloating etc., and also have existing fat deposition around the nipples...)
> ...


 Prop is not fun with the constant injects but it will work.

The main thing is you do not want to take HCG once the test has cleared so that needs to be backed up a week or so. 

The PCT should get your natty going no problem.


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## heavyiron (Jun 21, 2010)

xcameron22x said:


> im goin on my first cycle using ur first post cycle, and i was wondering what else can i use if i dont have aromasin? would dex b good or something else?


 Arimidex will work.


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## heavyiron (Apr 22, 2011)

Ravager said:


> So this is assuming Test-C or E which roughly is a 16 day ester.
> 
> *So starting THE DAY AFTER your last injection is day 1? Then you start injecting HCG EOD the day AFTER the last injection? Same with the clomid etc*?


 
Yes on the HCG. The Clomid is not as critical. If you get started a week late on the Clomid you are fine.


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## heavyiron (Jul 15, 2011)

msumuscle said:


> Heavy, do you stop HCG around a week before starting PCT?


 I use HCG while the ester is clearing.


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## c_adam35 (Aug 1, 2011)

*crazy*



doctormomen said:


> thank you for such info;
> so i would conclude that this is an example for best ,safest first cycle sample:
> Week 1-5 600mg Testosterone weekly
> Week 6-8 800mg Testosterone weekly
> ...


If your considering this as your first cycle your insane honestly 1g of test wtf r u thinking? im 6' 215 lbs 6%bf and only use 600mg. you should do alot more research before you start your first cycle my first cycle was

week 1-4
d-bol 30mgs = 10mg 3xday
week 1-10
aromasin 12.5mg e.o.d
test E 500mgs 2 pin split
week 2-10
500 iu 2 pin split sub q

pct
week 12-15
do not use hcg in pct as it aromatase 
clomid 100/75/50/50
aromasin 25/25/12.5/12.5
get some nolvadex in case of gyno symptoms dont use otherwise


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## heavyiron (Aug 1, 2011)

My first cycle was way more than that...


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## c_adam35 (Aug 1, 2011)

heavyiron said:


> My first cycle was way more than that...


really what was it and how were your results side affects? with my first cycle i put on 25lbs of muscle dropped 1%bf with little to no water retention kept all of my weight on and no side affects. more dont always = better especially for a first cycle you should see how your body reacts to what your running imo. Also someone brought up tren dont try tren on your first cycle only experienced users should use tren. tren = serious muscle gains and side affects. if you want to add somthing to your cycle i suggest a test d-bol deca cycle before tren.


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## heavyiron (Aug 1, 2011)

Lol


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## heavyiron (Aug 4, 2011)

safavisr said:


> Is it necessary to increase dose in increments in a 10 week cycle?


No, flat cycles are an option.


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## heavyiron (Aug 7, 2011)

VMS said:


> heavyiorn,
> 
> Firstly thanks for the info. Now that I know you need all these extra things in addition to the testosterone I don't know if I would want to go down that path..? It would be hard enough to get one of those items let alone all of them, especially since it's illegal in Australia.
> 
> ...



If you want the bare minimum to cycle then I would use Testosterone (any ester) and Nolvadex. Nolva can be used to treat emergency gynocomastia if it presents on cycle and it may be used post cycle for PCT. Here is a cycle layout using the min meds.

500mg Testosterone weekly for 8 weeks
20mg Nolvadex ed post cycle for 30 days

20 mg Nolva may also be employed on cycle if gyno presents.


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## heavyiron (Aug 12, 2011)

pieguy said:


> In terms of a first cycle w/ test prop instead of long esther, is 150mg EOD a safe dose or should i keep it to 100mg eod? I'm using 12.5 aromasin ed and this will probably be an 8 week cycle with back end HCG usage. Torem PCT.


150mg TP eod is fine brother.


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## heavyiron (Oct 8, 2011)

Kazi said:


> hello everyone, heavyiron thanks for the lovely info. I have been here for quite awhile, reading about steriods and everything. With time i have gotten to know alot. I do not want to rush it up but just wanted to ask im 21 now lifting from when i was 15. Right now im in the best shape that i have ever been and also the heaviest  , so would it be the right time for i first cycle or am i still to you.
> Good or bad answers , anything would be much appreciated


That is your decision to make. My first cycle was very aggressive. I was 20 years old and I have no regrets. I loved every minute of it.


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## heavyiron (Oct 9, 2011)

Kazi said:


> heavyiron,
> what would you recommend for a first cycle ?
> Im thinking about doing,
> week 1-12 test e 500mg ( mon and thurs 250mg each )
> ...


Read the first post in this thread over and over until you comprehend it all.


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## heavyiron (Oct 9, 2011)

Night_Wolf said:


> Mods you should clean this thread, leave posts only by heavyiron and lock it.


Cleaned thread


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## chris42393 (Oct 9, 2011)

nice post!


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## OnPoint88 (Oct 9, 2011)

2500iu EOD seems dangerous.


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## heavyiron (Oct 9, 2011)

OnPoint88 said:


> 2500iu EOD seems dangerous.


Higher doses of HCG are _commonly_ prescribed for much longer durations for hypogonadism.


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## Kazi (Oct 10, 2011)

Got it,
Thanks mate


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## TylerD (Oct 18, 2011)

im a college student and i want to try out for the football team i was wondering what kind of ph or any kind of supplement should i take to help me out....i want to gain lean muscle mass i dnt want to bulk up to where i cant move i want to stay athletic i want a supplement that can help me get strong more powerful and faster...any advice?


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## pieguy (Oct 18, 2011)

TylerD said:


> im a college student and i want to try out for the football team i was wondering what kind of ph or any kind of supplement should i take to help me out....i want to gain lean muscle mass i dnt want to bulk up to where i cant move i want to stay athletic i want a supplement that can help me get strong more powerful and faster...any advice?



No stats, no advice.

Age, weight, bf, training exp, etc. are all necessary before we can even begin to comment. Your ideas or steroid/prohormone usage are already flawed however if you think " i dnt want to bulk up to where i cant move i want to stay athletic." Do you think AAS usage will make you big and slow or something?


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## OnPoint88 (Oct 18, 2011)

TylerD said:


> im a college student and i want to try out for the football team i was wondering what kind of ph or any kind of supplement should i take to help me out....i want to gain lean muscle mass i dnt want to bulk up to where i cant move i want to stay athletic i want a supplement that can help me get strong more powerful and faster...any advice?


wrong thread, start your own


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## Gor22don33 (Oct 25, 2011)

I use HCG while the ester is clearing.


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## lambofgod (Oct 26, 2011)

so basically nolva is only in emergency if gyno starts to happen? take arimidex during whole cycle and aswell as pct with clomid? also with hcg if u dont take during the cycle a strong dose of around 2000iu every 3 days for 2 weeks is good?


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## XTI3 (Nov 4, 2011)

I need help! Im 21yrs old, 2years training inconsistently, 5'9'' 158lbs. I run a dbol only cycle 1month and a week 10mg per day. My gym instructor told me so. But I found out that it was wrong so I just stopped 3 days now. And I just want to clear up how to run PCT? I really dont know and I cant understand how to run PCT. Can anybody help me and I will really follow your advice. Because I was told that I really need to have a PCT. Please help.


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## gamma (Nov 4, 2011)

lambofgod said:


> so BASICALLY NOLVA is only in emergency if gyno starts to happen? take arimidex during whole cycle and aswell as pct with clomid? also with hcg if u dont take during the cycle a strong dose of around 2000iu every 3 days for 2 weeks is good?



thats debatable


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## GreenHULK (Nov 20, 2011)

I have to tell u heavyiron all ur posts are good. What think about this t400 I have a 10ml of it but I would like to gain 30lbs I no everybody says not to but was thinking of running 30mgs of dbol for almost 4wks to. Or should I get another dill of test an raise the doses?
I'm 25 b 26 in Jan 179 5'10 12%bf would like b 200-220 8% bf pin a gram of that shit would prob b aweful I'm shore


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## sofargone561 (Nov 20, 2011)

lambofgod said:


> so basically nolva is only in emergency if gyno starts to happen? take arimidex during whole cycle and aswell as pct with clomid? also with hcg if u dont take during the cycle a strong dose of around 2000iu every 3 days for 2 weeks is good?


 no but thats what a lot of guys including myseld use it for...


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## c_adam35 (Nov 26, 2011)

i couldnt pin a gram thats a shit load why would you when u could just stack? but ill smoke a gram!


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## jayru21cknoob (Dec 1, 2011)

would using 6 OXO interfere with any of the other anti estrogen products?


----------



## VMS (Dec 6, 2011)

Im on the beginning of week 5 of a 10-12 week cycle. This week I start to pyramid from 1 ml to 2 ml of sus250 p/w. Also I began stacking with dbol's for a week now 5p/day. Should I be hitting anything else?? I will start taking Arimidex to keep my test levels high as I know dbols amortize quickly and continue them on after cycle as PCT . Im ordering CJC 1295 to take for the rest of the cycle.

Strength has increased slightly and weight is up slightly 2kg's I was expecting more, I'm sleeping and working out hard, I could be eating a bit more but I make up with supplements. 

do you think it's cause I'm under dosing that my gains have not been as good so far or is this normal?


----------



## thaigleshmk (Dec 15, 2011)

So I have a quick question, 

Once I'm done with 10 weeks with Test E, when should I start Clomid? The next day? Or 2 weeks after? What's the most optimal way?

Thank you.


----------



## Night_Wolf (Dec 15, 2011)

thaigleshmk said:


> So I have a quick question,
> 
> Once I'm done with 10 weeks with Test E, when should I start Clomid? The next day? Or 2 weeks after? What's the most optimal way?
> 
> Thank you.



2 weeks later. And next time make your own thread don't spam stickies


----------



## CityHunter (Dec 18, 2011)

Hi,

Thx HeavyIron for this great article. I read it at least 10 times and appreciate the way you wrote it, making the way to use steroids understandable to a non specialist that I am. It 's really full of knowledge and permit us to understand with what we're dealing with.

Thx


----------



## .303.Zzz (Dec 18, 2011)

Hey so I don't want to take all those things I don't even know about well I know about but don't really understand so for my first cycle I want to do
Test E 250mg/ml every Monday and Thursday for 10 Weeks then start PCT 3 weeks after
Just Nolva 40/20/20 any advice?


----------



## .303.Zzz (Dec 18, 2011)

Oh my stats are
6' 3
220pounds


----------



## CityHunter (Dec 18, 2011)

You're are confuse man.... Read and read over the HeavyIron article. If you don't know what you're doing then don't do it!


----------



## BUCKY (Dec 25, 2011)

I like this advice. Seems like every advice I got here is personal and only something that works for them, but might not work for others. Your first post regarding cycle is interesting but it might not work for me as it has worked for you. Regarding PCT, I'm not sure it should even be called that anymore since you're using an AI during the cycle (not post cycle).  



heavyiron said:


> That is your decision to make. My first cycle was very aggressive. I was 20 years old and I have no regrets. I loved every minute of it.


----------



## MDR (Dec 25, 2011)

BUCKY said:


> I like this advice. Seems like every advice I got here is personal and only something that works for them, but might not work for others. Your first post regarding cycle is interesting but it might not work for me as it has worked for you. Regarding PCT, I'm not sure it should even be called that anymore since you're using an AI during the cycle (not post cycle).


 
Huh?  He is using an A/I during his PCT  and during the cycle.


----------



## BUCKY (Dec 27, 2011)

it should be called OCPCT (on cycle, post cycle therapy). Or who can come up with a better term? Great post by him though, first time I've heard of using an AI while on cycle, I hope this does not interfere with the full benefits (and risks) of the FULL testosterone cycle. I would guess it would since the AI would be blocking something? Is gynecomastia not reversible? Why not wait til the end of a cycle to use an AI?

Regarding hypogonadism, the use of an Armidex for PCT is helpful along with gynecomastia and water retention issues, so I don't get Heavy Iron's high dose of HCG at all when if using an Armidex it would only be 0.50 to 1 mg daily, correct? To each his own I guess.



MDR said:


> Huh?  He is using an A/I during his PCT  and during the cycle.


----------



## grotto72 (Dec 27, 2011)

dude ur not reading it right. AI are to stop conversion of estrogen which leads to the bad side effects and gyno. if u dont take AI during a test cycle u will end up looking like a bloated, pimply asshole with bitchtits. PCT is to restore natural test levels u douche. AI has nothing to do with helping natural test production, thats what clomid and hcg are for. if u dont do pct then u will lose all ur gains from aas and fuck up ur nuts.


----------



## Sammyboombammy (Jan 3, 2012)

Hey guys im looking for the best "natural"pct on the market i mean i can buy, lets say my soucre has proved rubbish and is no no longer online. 
thanks


----------



## CityHunter (Jan 3, 2012)

.... No comment... Read the rules


----------



## BIGBASH (Jan 3, 2012)

thanks heavy


----------



## Sammyboombammy (Jan 6, 2012)

right so your telling me i cant ask aboutover the counter products?


----------



## heavyiron (Jan 6, 2012)

Sammyboombammy said:


> Hey guys im looking for the best "natural"pct on the market i mean i can buy, lets say my soucre has proved rubbish and is no no longer online.
> thanks


*Ultra Male rx*

IronMagLabs Bodybuilding Supplements & Prohormones: Ultra Male Rx


----------



## merz (Jan 6, 2012)

Great read, thanks for the info Heavy. 

Been off the stuff for about 18 weeks now, went to the dr for a checkup, testosterone levels were in the double digits, not good at all. Now that it's been so long since my last shot, would it be smarter to do the 5000iu/week to restart it all or would it be better to do the 500iu twice a week?

my preferred option, do a new cycle and use HCG 500iu every 3 days weekly ?

Sorry for the hassle - never been shut down before - thanks deca.


----------



## heavyiron (Jan 6, 2012)

merz said:


> Great read, thanks for the info Heavy.
> 
> Been off the stuff for about 18 weeks now, went to the dr for a checkup, testosterone levels were in the double digits, not good at all. Now that it's been so long since my last shot, would it be smarter to do the 5000iu/week to restart it all or would it be better to do the 500iu twice a week?
> 
> ...


How old are you?

What was your Total T exactly?


----------



## merz (Jan 6, 2012)

My total T was 81 ng/dL, free testosterone 1.8 pg/dL.

I'm 25 years old, 5'10 around 245lbs.
My cycle consisted of:
Test E - 500 mg/week - GP
Test C - 400 mg/week - CVS yay US pharm 
Deca - 400 mg/week - Naps no label 
Adex - .5mg EOD - GP
Dbol - Week 1-4 - 30mg/day - GP

My PCT - no hcg or clomid like an idiot
4 weeks of Nolva and I did adex as well if i remember correctly


I had extra Test E so I decided to just put all 3 in one. I did between 2.0 and 2.5CC in my delts and 3 in glutes.

I'm just disappointed at my own lack of preparation and now I'm paying for it.


----------



## heavyiron (Jan 6, 2012)

merz said:


> My total T was 81 ng/dL, free testosterone 1.8 pg/dL.
> 
> I'm 25 years old, 5'10 around 245lbs.
> My cycle consisted of:
> ...


I would try a Clomid restart. 50mg daily for 4 weeks.


----------



## merz (Jan 6, 2012)

Thank you - I sure will. Thank you for your support and quick response.


----------



## heavyiron (Jan 6, 2012)

merz said:


> Thank you - I sure will. Thank you for your support and quick response.


You are very welcome brother.

You may also want to try Ultra Male rx

IronMagLabs Bodybuilding Supplements & Prohormones: Ultra Male Rx


----------



## Sammyboombammy (Jan 9, 2012)

*read what i said!*



CityHunter said:


> .... No comment... Read the rules



read what i said!


----------



## tuton11 (Jan 10, 2012)

Amazing thread here.  Lots of info for beginners


----------



## merz (Jan 12, 2012)

heavyiron said:


> You are very welcome brother.
> 
> You may also want to try Ultra Male rx
> 
> IronMagLabs Bodybuilding Supplements & Prohormones: Ultra Male Rx




Reporting in on results:
Chromium HCG 5000iu - 3 shots over 1 week period
Clomid - 50mg a day for the last 7 and will continue.

Went to endoc. dr. and he gave me more clomid - apparently thats where the magic is at.

Thanks again Heavy.


----------



## K20A2_S (Feb 1, 2012)

Heavyiron, what's ur take on this method of hcg usage and pct:  HCG During Cycle, Compelling Article

Main difference being the stopping hcg usage one week prior to esters clearing.

Thanks for any info or help.


----------



## pklaswugjjwm (Feb 7, 2012)

valuable information.thank you.


----------



## dannyh (Feb 11, 2012)

has anyone ever ordered from cemproducts.com ? do you no if they are legit ? i ordered liquid clomi from there.


----------



## 0612Legend (Feb 20, 2012)

Hey gonna start a 10 week cycle of Test Prop 100mgs EOD, Masteron 200mgs EOD and HGH and plan on running the HGH 6 Months.  I will Be taking 50mgs of Proviron ED as well.  This is my 4th cycle im 5'11 253 pounds and sitting at 12-13% bodyfat.  Will a Basic Clomid and Nolva be a decent PCT for this.


----------



## jimm (Feb 20, 2012)

heavyiron said:


> The body will reach homeostasis around week 8 or 9 unless you use increasing aas doses throughout the cycle because of myostatin levels so the flat cycle design will not work for 12 weeks.



Sorry to drag up such a old post but there's some really great info in these stickys.. Iv just ran a cycle for 15 weeks longest I've ever done. 

I would usually stop at 10 but had the extra bottle so though why not,any way I'm pretty sure my body went into homeostasis as I didn't feel as though I gained anything from them extra 5 weeks.

Wish I had the patience to read through all these stickies when I first joind I've always been so unpatient lol any way great post!


----------



## THEWIZARDOFKOZ (Feb 23, 2012)

thanks for the good read


----------



## adambomb (Feb 27, 2012)

That is a very good write up.  Good info for beginners.


----------



## grotto72 (Mar 7, 2012)

im going to do a quick 8 week cycle of prop with winstrol in the last 4 weeks. how long do i wait before starting clomid for pct?


----------



## hotvalcano (Mar 14, 2012)

Heavy your really a Professor MAN ! 
Cheers to your magnificent experimented mind !
Good luck to you & all !
Thx 4 the great posts !
Keep it up MAN !


----------



## swizzy (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm new to supplements, finally got the hook up  and the balls to start  pinning 12 weeks @ (Test prop for my 1st 10 ml and Test e for the  remainder of my 12 week cycle and EQ - Its all I could get  in my area.)

1). What would you recommend to someone who has already started a 12  week cycle -  test  prop 100mg eod with eq300 e5d then switched to Test E  250mg every 5 days and eq 300mg every 5 days - no PCT in place, didn't  know   it was necessary until halfway through cycle. Not sure where to  get   anything other than test and EQ - not sure how far I should take  this  w/o PCT in place - any PCT recommended supplements easy to get  through a reputable site? 

2). Would it be ok to ease off the test toward the end of the cycle to  avoid the need for PCT and  continue with only eq 300mg every 5 days  seeing that I have no PCT  or is it recommended to stay  the course?

36yo 250lbs - experienced in the gym, Gained a ton of weight after an   injury -  looking to gain lean muscle maybe a little Mass by lifting and  lose fat with cardio and  proper diet.


----------



## Sup-D (Mar 24, 2012)

Hello everyone I'm a rookie and was wondering if anyone has ever heard of someone being allergic to primobolan enanthate and if so what would happen if they were?


----------



## BUCKY (Mar 25, 2012)

My 8 week cycle just ended. My on cycle therapy choice of drug was Anastrozole (Arimidex). I used 0.75 mg daily. How many days do I stop taking this AFTER my last Testosterone Enanthate injection? I've used 500mg weekly for 8 weeks. It's been about 5 days since my last shot. Can I stop using Arimidex now? When do I kick off my PCT? I was told within 2-3 weeks of last injection of the Test Enanthate.


----------



## BUCKY (Mar 25, 2012)

It seems like no one ever knew when to ever start their PCT. I've never come across anyone that mentioned when they started their PCT after their last injection. All I came across on the internet articles is that anywhere from after 3 days of last injection, to within 2-3 weeks of last injection. Someone here more experienced need to verify!



grotto72 said:


> im going to do a quick 8 week cycle of prop with winstrol in the last 4 weeks. how long do i wait before starting clomid for pct?


----------



## booze (Mar 25, 2012)

Depends what esters you are running. Short like prop, 3 or so days, long like enth 2 weeks.


----------



## Justin Kase (Apr 4, 2012)

i gotta print thisso i dont lose the info.  ill copy n paste so i dont get anything but your article.


----------



## Wanna_B_Bigger (Apr 29, 2012)

I got some good info on cycling and pct from bigmike-7. He seems to know his stuff so any of you guys looking for answers may want to hit him up.


----------



## Playb (May 8, 2012)

Does Tribulius terrestris work as post cycle???


----------



## msumuscle (May 9, 2012)

Playb said:


> Does Tribulius terrestris work as post cycle???



Hell no, you can use it alongside your clomid/nolva & AI but never should be used alone as PCT


----------



## astrosfan123 (May 10, 2012)

i got a couple days left before i start PCT. This was my first cycle and It was kickstarted with boladrol and am finishing up the last 6 days of SD at the end.  It was 12 weeks 500 mg test e.  During cycle i ran the hcg and will have one more shot of that left.  However my adex is almost gone.  Maybe a 3 or 4 or doses left.  My question is how necessary is the ai during pct to run along side nolva.  I have AI Post Cycle Support left over because i had previously ran multiple PH's.  Can i just run that along with nolva and throw in DAA for my pct or do i need to go ahead and order some more adex. I plan to stay with the dark side so i will never be running a PH only cycle so i dont think the post cycle support will ever be needed.  Can i just throw it in with nolva and daa instead of ordering more adex?  Thanks guys


----------



## ashraf 99 (May 11, 2012)

hello every one my name is ashraf iam 37 202lb male been working out for 2 years bench 250 squat 300 i want the pros to give me there view on my
first cycle ever
week1-10 250mg test E every 4 days
week 1-10 25-50 mg proviron ed
week 1-10 400 iu hcg every 4 days
week 12-15 20mg nolvadex
week 12-15 50mg clomid
should i do any thind else or different
thank u


----------



## Playb (May 12, 2012)

Hey guys!! Just got these for post cycle! Any advices? Has anyone tried these? Don't want to loose what I gained


----------



## Playb (May 12, 2012)




----------



## Playb (May 13, 2012)

Can I use it with the HCG in the pic I posted????


----------



## heavyiron (May 14, 2012)

Playb said:


> Can I use it with the HCG in the pic I posted????



No, it's fake. HCG must be injected.


----------



## heavyiron (May 14, 2012)

astrosfan123 said:


> i got a couple days left before i start PCT. This was my first cycle and It was kickstarted with boladrol and am finishing up the last 6 days of SD at the end.  It was 12 weeks 500 mg test e.  During cycle i ran the hcg and will have one more shot of that left.  However my adex is almost gone.  Maybe a 3 or 4 or doses left.  My question is how necessary is the ai during pct to run along side nolva.  I have AI Post Cycle Support left over because i had previously ran multiple PH's.  Can i just run that along with nolva and throw in DAA for my pct or do i need to go ahead and order some more adex. I plan to stay with the dark side so i will never be running a PH only cycle so i dont think the post cycle support will ever be needed.  Can i just throw it in with nolva and daa instead of ordering more adex?  Thanks guys



Nolva is just fine.


----------



## Jeebus (May 16, 2012)

Great post. 

Great post here.

Is this all the needles I'll need?

HCG: Tuberculin Syringe 1cc 27G

Test: 3cc Syringe 25G x 1 1/2"

I find choosing needles is harder than finding gear lol.


----------



## Italia01 (Jun 17, 2012)

Hello HeavyIron,

I was wondering if you could answer a few quick questions.  I'm about to run a test/winstrol cycle, and I'm not looking to gain 30lbs like you did, which I applaud you for, that is fantastic.  I'm 25 5'11 and 205 with 13% body fat.  My diet is good, nice mixture of veggies, plenty of chicken, egg whites, a little yogurt and very few carbs.  My question is do I really need the test if my ultimate goal is maybe 6lbs of lean body mass, I don't want massive gains, I want to just stay around 205-215 and change my body comp by dropping to 10% body fat with the ultimate goal of 6-8% in the future, and do I really need to use HCG, arimidex, or aromasin on cycle?  I only plan on doing around 300-400mg a week of the test and 50mg a week of the winny. I understand PCT of these 3, but on cycle too?


----------



## Italia01 (Jun 18, 2012)

Italia01 said:


> Hello HeavyIron,
> 
> I was wondering if you could answer a few quick questions.  I'm about to run a test/winstrol cycle, and I'm not looking to gain 30lbs like you did, which I applaud you for, that is fantastic.  I'm 25 5'11 and 205 with 13% body fat.  My diet is good, nice mixture of veggies, plenty of chicken, egg whites, a little yogurt and very few carbs.  My question is do I really need the test if my ultimate goal is maybe 6lbs of lean body mass, I don't want massive gains, I want to just stay around 205-215 and change my body comp by dropping to 10% body fat with the ultimate goal of 6-8% in the future, and do I really need to use HCG, arimidex, or aromasin on cycle?  I only plan on doing around 300-400mg a week of the test and 50mg a week of the winny. I understand PCT of these 3, but on cycle too?



Sorry I misquoted myself, I didn't mean PCT of HCG, arimidex, or aromasin, just PCT period. I plan on a PCT of clomid, forma stanzol, and unleashed/post cyle combo


----------



## stanley? (Jun 21, 2012)

I have a question about the PCT part of the cycle you have laid out.

"I recommend the following PCT protocol for esters like Cypionate and Enanthate;
Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other  day. (You may use less HCG if your testes are normal in size AND you  have been using HCG on cycle, i.e. 1,000iu HCG etd.)
100/100/100/50 Clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3 after aas ester clears)
20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)
3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses
10g creatine daily"

The Aromasin is to be taken concurrently with the HCG, correct?  Examle, HCG is taken for 16 days starting the day after the last injection of tesosterone, and aromasin is taken 20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg for four weeks starting the day after the last testosterone injection.  Starting the second week after the last testosterone injection, clomid is then taken 100/100/100/50 for four weeks.

I want to clarify that this is exactly how the process should work:
Weeks 1-10:
Testosterone/HCG/Aromasin in the indicated amounts of the cycle

Day after last injection of testosterone to 2 weeks (technically 16 days from post) after last injection of testosterone:
HCG/Aromasin in indicated amounts

2 weeks after last testosterone injection to 4 weeks after testosterone injection
Aromasin/Clomid in indicated amounts

4 weeks after last testosterone injection to 6 weeks after last testosterone injection:
clomid in indicated amounts

Thanks


----------



## TheFlexShow (Jun 27, 2012)

A lot of ppl seem to get confused on pct..heavy has set a nice bacic guide here
..that's great for beginners! With a lil more reading You'll start to understand it better. You will also gind that many have different opinions on pct and not everyone runs it the same..


----------



## BP2000 (Jul 17, 2012)

bump


----------



## BP2000 (Jul 17, 2012)

Italia01 said:


> Hello HeavyIron,
> 
> I was wondering if you could answer a few quick questions. I'm about to run a test/winstrol cycle, and I'm not looking to gain 30lbs like you did, which I applaud you for, that is fantastic. I'm 25 5'11 and 205 with 13% body fat. My diet is good, nice mixture of veggies, plenty of chicken, egg whites, a little yogurt and very few carbs. My question is do I really need the test if my ultimate goal is maybe 6lbs of lean body mass, I don't want massive gains, I want to just stay around 205-215 and change my body comp by dropping to 10% body fat with the ultimate goal of 6-8% in the future, and do I really need to use HCG, arimidex, or aromasin on cycle? I only plan on doing around 300-400mg a week of the test and 50mg a week of the winny. I understand PCT of these 3, but on cycle too?



I think he ate like a horse to gain 30+  You can actually cut on a test cycle.  If you did 600mg per week and kept a low cal diet it could possibly cut you up and give you the results you are looking for.  Perhaps run a DHT drug like Var for your tendon strength.


----------



## the durf23 (Jul 30, 2012)

*Anavar Cycle*

I'm getting ready to hop on Anavar 75mg a day. Liquid Tamox ok for PCT? I'm 23, 6-3 about 190lbs. Just looking for some advice and trying to get rid of belly fat and cut up. Let me know, thanks


----------



## the durf23 (Jul 30, 2012)

I'm getting ready to hop on Anavar 75mg a day. Liquid Tamox ok for PCT? I'm 23, 6-3 about 190lbs. Just looking for some advice and trying to get rid of belly fat and cut up. Let me know, thanks

ps.. should i bump up to 80mg a day?


----------



## Ghost Ryda (Aug 3, 2012)

Hey guys - esp. HeavyIron - lots and LOTS of info in this thread and on these forums. However, it's still left me a bit confused in regards to PCT. Here's my deal. I am eventually going to be getting back on Test Cyp. I have 80cc 250/mg. And no, I am not going to use it all at once, but rather several shorter cycles as I now know (from this thread) about that plateau, which I actually experienced on  a couple 12 weeks cycles in the past. I am not stacking anything, just straight Cypionate.  I have used Nolva/Clomid in the past for PCT, and did not use an AI on-cycle as I did not experience gyno.  I just want to get my PCT nailed down to a T before I even start with the test.  I guess I am asking for advice from HeavyIron, who is a proponent of Testosterone.  If I am cycling 500mg cyp/week for 8 weeks at a time, what would you personally recommend as a viable effective PCT?  I get awesome gains from Test alone, and do not want to waste them.  And if I cycle the test as mentioned, how much layoff time would you recommend after PCT before starting again?  Sorry for the questions, I am just getting getting confused with reading all the different advice on the forums.


----------



## CityHunter (Aug 3, 2012)

Read the stickies made by HeavyIron in the anabolic section.


----------



## NoviceAAS (Aug 16, 2012)

I think Ive read this post at least 6 or 7 times. Thanks for this !


----------



## joseph35 (Aug 26, 2012)

Hi HeavyIron:


I would apreciate your help very much? I have been weighlifting since I was 16, when I was 22 i decided to do my first cicle but the advise I got was pretty bad, eventually i started a cicle of deca 200 + sustenon 250 weekly, but on week number 3 I injured my lower back and got an hernia so I couldn?t continue with it. Today I am 35 years old, last 2 years going to the gym 4 times/week 5?9.5? 165 pounds 15%bf and would love to add 20 more pounds of muscle mass.

I have read over and over your post and will like to know if this is the right way to do a first cicle.

8 week/cicle

Every Sunday 10mg Aromasin
Every Monday 10mg Aromasin/500iu HCG
Every Tuesday 10mg Aromasin/250mg Enanthate
Every Wednesday 10mg Aromasin
Every Thursday 10mg Aromasin
Every Friday 10mg Aromasin/500iu HCG
Every Saturday 10mg Aromasin/250mg Enanthate

And for PCT, as soon as i finish the cicle:

Day 1-16 : HCG 1000iu daily

Day 1-21: Aromasin 20mg per day
Day 21-28: Aromasin 10mg daily

Day 14-35: 100mg Clomid per day (Split 50/50)
Day 36-43: 50mg Clomid per day

Day 1-21: 3g Vit C daily

Day 1-60: 10g creatine daily

Thank you for your time, regards,

Joseph


----------



## alan2012 (Oct 25, 2012)

Hi everyone new to this forum
Just started my first cycle
Malay tiger test e 2ml monday 2ml thursday
12week course
Unsure what pct to take thinking nolva & clomid
Some help would be great, the gear am using anygood? pct help? etc etc thanks alot guys
21 training for 1 n half years was 9stone 4 when started now 11stone 4 and its gettin hard to gain weigh thanks alot


----------



## ratedR (Oct 25, 2012)

alan2012 said:


> Hi everyone new to this forum
> Just started my first cycle
> Malay tiger test e 2ml monday 2ml thursday
> 12week course
> ...



Make your own thread, tell us you height(feet), weight(lbs),years of training and what your diet is looking like. At 21 you shouldnt need any test being that test levels are very high. But since you started already i guess continue. You need to get pct, you shouldnt start cycles without pct. As for pct, Heavy laid out a good pct in the first post. Make sure to have nolva on hand just incase gyno flares up, you dont want bitch tits


----------



## alan2012 (Oct 25, 2012)

ratedR said:


> Make your own thread, tell us you height(feet), weight(lbs),years of training and what your diet is looking like. At 21 you shouldnt need any test being that test levels are very high. But since you started already i guess continue. You need to get pct, you shouldnt start cycles without pct. As for pct, Heavy laid out a good pct in the first post. Make sure to have nolva on hand just incase gyno flares up, you dont want bitch tits



Thanks for reply pal, knew to this so didnt know weather to make a thread or owt
got sum nolva n clomid on order so shud have it soon, iam 5,8, weigh 159lb , been lifting around 18month
Jabbin 4ml for first 5week then going to jab 5ml till the 12th week hope this healp, any more advice thanks


----------



## ratedR (Oct 25, 2012)

alan2012 said:


> Thanks for reply pal, knew to this so didnt know weather to make a thread or owt
> got sum nolva n clomid on order so shud have it soon, iam 5,8, weigh 159lb , been lifting around 18month
> Jabbin 4ml for first 5week then going to jab 5ml till the 12th week hope this healp, any more advice thanks



This is heavy's cycle for first time users. "
"Sunday 10mg Aromasin
 Monday 10mg Aromasin/500iu HCG
Tuesday 10mg Aromasin/300mg Enanthate
Wednesday 10mg Aromasin
Thursday 10mg Aromasin
Friday 10mg Aromasin/500iu HCG
Saturday 10mg Aromasin/300mg Enanthate"

PCT as follows:

Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other  day. (You may use less HCG if your testes are normal in size AND you  have been using HCG on cycle, i.e. 1,000iu HCG etd.)

100/100/100/50 Clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3 after aas ester clears)

20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)

3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses

10g creatine daily 

hope this helps

-R​


----------



## alan2012 (Oct 26, 2012)

Guys doing my first test e cycle 500mg per week, shud i inject once or twice a week? what do u reccomend for pct thanks


----------



## ratedR (Oct 26, 2012)

alan2012 said:


> Guys doing my first test e cycle 500mg per week, shud i inject once or twice a week? what do u reccomend for pct thanks



Did u read this thread dude? do u read any threads? this has been covered multiple times! Research is your friend


----------



## jpound (Oct 27, 2012)

Awesome Post Heavy, Very easy to understand and Good Important info with the PCT. alot of times people dont realize how important PCT is when they first jump into running gear. I Learned the hard way years ago. Live and Learn. Awesome Post, Have read it over multiple times! Helps Simplify and Understand the hows whys and whens.


----------



## cube789 (Dec 3, 2012)

Playb said:


>





lolz


----------



## bearmode (Dec 30, 2012)

bump


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## Old Army (May 21, 2013)

I am looking for some advice on a first cycle. I have been on 300mg per week of Test Cyp for about 2 months. About one month ago I started taking 150mg of HCG every other day. I wanted to add a small trenbolone dose of 50mg every other day and a small dose of nandrolone, 75mg twice a week for 10 to 12 weeks. I have nolvadex to add in about half way through the cycle and into post cycle. I plan to continue the HCG during and after the cycle. My goal is not to gain much weight but to lean out and get some joint relief. Any strength or size gains are welcome but not my primary focus. I know running two 19 nor's at the same time increases the propensity for prolactin production. Considering that I am running such low doses for a short time should I be concerned with prolactin side effects? Should I include pramipexole?

If it helps, I am 43 and have been lifting for about 25 years. I'm 5'6" and weigh 220 at about 8% body fat.


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## Swolen22 (Jun 21, 2013)

Old Army said:


> I am looking for some advice on a first cycle. I have been on 300mg per week of Test Cyp for about 2 months. About one month ago I started taking 150mg of HCG every other day. I wanted to add a small trenbolone dose of 50mg every other day and a small dose of nandrolone, 75mg twice a week for 10 to 12 weeks. I have nolvadex to add in about half way through the cycle and into post cycle. I plan to continue the HCG during and after the cycle. My goal is not to gain much weight but to lean out and get some joint relief. Any strength or size gains are welcome but not my primary focus. I know running two 19 nor's at the same time increases the propensity for prolactin production. Considering that I am running such low doses for a short time should I be concerned with prolactin side effects? Should I include pramipexole?
> 
> If it helps, I am 43 and have been lifting for about 25 years. I'm 5'6" and weigh 220 at about 8% body fat.




I would not run 2 19nor's. better to up the dose to something like 600mg test and 300mg nandrolone. You should take 500iu hcg 2x a week. Aromasin 25mg or arimidex 1mg every day. Then proper pct.


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## PHO (Jun 25, 2013)

Following your suggestions word for word with Test E 400mg/wk. M4BTEAM.COM  or RBB ?


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## mr.buffman (Jul 9, 2013)

good info for me to take in!! thanks!!


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## wef823 (Dec 1, 2013)

This is just the thread I've been looking for, thank you. Now for more research...


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## Animal187 (Dec 9, 2013)

Thanks for the great info! Just what I was looking for.


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## Gracieboy (Feb 6, 2014)

Interesting


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## Tony12 (Apr 17, 2014)

I'm on my first cycle and got told to take deca and sus I'm one week into it what should I do I'm 21 12stone 5ft8 and 10%bf


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## egq003 (Apr 28, 2014)

Running my first cycle test c 250. 500mgs/wk 

Aromisin eod 25mgs

Nolva for PCT

What PCT sides should I expect??


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## ElitePeptides (May 3, 2014)

egq003 said:


> Running my first cycle test c 250. 500mgs/wk
> 
> Aromisin eod 25mgs
> 
> ...



Have you considered HCG ? Nolva alone may not be sufficient. Let some of the others chime in on this though.


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## stuman455 (May 9, 2014)

Im doing mine just like heavy said. The cost of the pct and stuff is more than the gear lol. Kinda expensive, but I rather take the safe route I reckon. Thought about just using nova, but changed my mind.


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## stuman455 (May 29, 2014)

This sticky is very helpful.


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## Smokedoa (Jun 9, 2014)

For my first cycle,I'm thinking of just test e by its self and then my pct,do you think I should throw something else in there with the test


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## p78c00a (Jun 25, 2014)

thank you for the information


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## Swolldier (Jul 3, 2014)

Good stuff. Thanks for putting in the work


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## Armydude2 (Jul 12, 2014)

Now thats some good good.....


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## dagambd (Sep 9, 2014)

Great post Heavy.


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## littlekeys30 (Sep 21, 2014)

So I just finished my DMZ 3.0 Stack from iron mags and have just started my PCT, which came with the DMZ 3.0 stack. It consists of Ultra Male RX and E-Control RX. I am only 3 days in on my PCT and every single day since I have started my PCT I have been getting really extreme headaches, I did not have them when I was taking the stack just immediately once I started up the PCT. So wondering is this normal or not. Thanks.


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## Tagger (Sep 27, 2014)

Fucking great write up!! 

I already knew a lot but this taught me a lot more! 

Will definitely read again.


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## mick-w- (Sep 28, 2014)

Need some advice 
Im 27 about 15st10 and just finished a course of anapalon 50s for 5 wks 
Im looking on injections next maybe sus and deca been told its gd????


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## Tagger (Sep 29, 2014)

mick-w- said:


> Need some advice
> Im 27 about 15st10 and just finished a course of anapalon 50s for 5 wks
> Im looking on injections next maybe sus and deca been told its gd????


15st10?


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## mick-w- (Sep 29, 2014)

Ye 15stone 10lbs 6ft1-2 I wouldnt say all muscle like


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## Tagger (Sep 29, 2014)

mick-w- said:


> Ye 15stone 10lbs 6ft1-2 I wouldnt say all muscle like


Training history? 
Supplement history? 
Diet? 
Goals? 

I would he able to help you better with more info.


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## mick-w- (Sep 29, 2014)

Been training for about 3yrs diet is ok rice pasta chicken fish staek veg tbh I must eat every 3 hrs 
Only ever had one oral only cycle it wasnt the best like been told euro pharma orals r under dosed erm im looking make a good amount of muscle mass


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## Tagger (Sep 29, 2014)

mick-w- said:


> Been training for about 3yrs diet is ok rice pasta chicken fish staek veg tbh I must eat every 3 hrs
> Only ever had one oral only cycle it wasnt the best like been told euro pharma orals r under dosed erm im looking make a good amount of muscle mass


Just some plain ole testosterone would be great for you if you want to pin. 

Read the very first acticle on this thread and shoot for 500mg (250mg twice per week).


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## mick-w- (Sep 29, 2014)

Tagger said:


> Just some plain ole testosterone would be great for you if you want to pin.
> 
> Read the very first acticle on this thread and shoot for 500mg (250mg twice per week).


Is that correct to take the ai's during the cycle and when finishing test e administer clomid 2 wks later


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## Tagger (Sep 29, 2014)

mick-w- said:


> Is that correct to take the ai's during the cycle and when finishing test e administer clomid 2 wks later


Yah thats correct. Depends on what kind and substance of AI. Some people only run AI if the substance can convert. 

I'd run it regardless, it's just better so you don't get bitch tits.


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## Iainsm (Oct 19, 2014)

Any advice on my first cycle and what to take on my PCT greatly appreciated also need someone to point me In right direction for bulk products I have some test 400 left and tren ace got plenty anabolics sitting around and a couple of strips of proviron left newbie help please regards T Bear


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## Series (Oct 19, 2014)

Nice


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## Conceal30 (Nov 26, 2014)

thanks for this info. much respect heavyiron, for taking the time to educate the ignorant. good stuff.


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## flood (Dec 15, 2014)

Hey HI, Ink here from your site...

We're heading to Thailand and want to try Primobolan for 3 weeks. First stack, kinda worried I get it right brother.

On 80-100mg/wk test cyp now.

Increase Cypionate to 200-300mg and stack Primobolan Depot 200-300mg/wk.
Increase Anastrozole from 1/2mg a week to 1/2mg 3x wk

Dosage ?
Should I increase T and AI before we go for 2 weeks?
Should I get Tamoxifen when we get there in case of gyno?

 I want to cut & save/build some mass - primo doesn't give estro bloat - correct?


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## skumarc (Jan 16, 2015)

Dear All,

I am a Newbie and I really need some advice. I am 30Yrs, 6'3 240lbs with bf - 23%. I do Crossfit 3-4 days a week and 1-2 times gym lifting weights. Fairly have good eating habits.

I started my test p cycle 3 weeks back with this week being the end of 3rd week. 

This is my cycle.
Length 8 weeks
    Weeks 1-8 100 mg GP Test Prop every other day.
    Weeks 3-8 40 mg GP Stan 10 per day.
    Weeks 1-8 GP Anastrozole .5 mg per day (continued for at least 10 days after cycle.)

I also added the HGH blue tops to my 3rd week (This week)

i have noticed significant gains (atleast 9Lbs) in the last 1 week and i am literally not fitting in my pants(Increate in waist line for sure and in thigh area) . i am really worried if this is water retention, Fat accumulation or muscle gains (Which i am sure is not).

i also understand that everyone's body is different. But i would really appreciate for some Please help.


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## ldog (Jan 16, 2015)

Is this your first cycle? Why did choose to add HGH? Just curious.


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## skumarc (Jan 16, 2015)

ldog said:


> Is this your first cycle? Why did choose to add HGH? Just curious.



Yes. This is my 1st cycle. 

I apologies, I am new to this and a Noob. I added HGH to my first cycle only because of 1 reason. To cut down on BF%


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## RichardCross (Feb 6, 2015)

Thanks for your post!!! Very helpful.


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## Gsxr727 (May 6, 2015)

Thanks. Great advice and knowledge.


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## jatin143ahuja (May 23, 2015)

Sir iam afraid of hairloss and gyno i still have 27% bf plz help with my first ever cycle plzz plzz answer cycle and pct plz i beg u


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## Ls61973 (May 23, 2015)

skumarc said:


> Yes. This is my 1st cycle.
> 
> I apologies, I am new to this and a Noob. I added HGH to my first cycle only because of 1 reason. To cut down on BF%


I would added the GH at the end as PCR.  Diet, diet, Diet to lose BF.  Yes you will some water r.


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## ssingh1221 (Aug 14, 2015)

this is gonna be my 1st cycle thanks john


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## Tallman 45 (Aug 28, 2015)

I used to think anabolic users were not very intelligent. Was I wrong. Formal apology  You guys have a science degree! I TRT cruise with Test cyp 200 2x wk. Added biotropin for 3 months lost 40lbs. Now doc gave me semorelin and gaining 15 lbs fat again.  Want to go back to hgh and add min amount of deca, dbol.  Is their a pct, AI protocol for someone like myself?  Thanks vet builders.


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## Wildingen (May 15, 2016)

Hey, I have a question about prolonging my cycle.
I'm on my 12th week now
Week 1-4 Dbol 30mg ed
Week 1-12 Deca 250mg e5d
Week 1-12 Test E 500mg e5d
Week 13-15 Test E 750mg e5d

Now I would like feedback about continuing another 4 weeks after week 15 with phoeniex remedies burnabol (cutmix 50mg test p, 50mg tren a, 50mg drost p), 150mg (1cc) eod ? As for a cutting phase before entering PCT.
What do you think?


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## rayan (May 25, 2016)

Very simple and quick.

Im 24  179 height  and I weigh 63 Kg.   Slim fir but not skinny.

I do lots of workout, exercise and sport,

I do want to gain some weight as well as a normal masculine body shape. I have tried a testestrone cycle T BOMB 2  since I thought that would help me gain some weight.

based on my research I was just about to start an ANAVAR cycle. not even for very long. ( 3-4 weeks max)
but I recently noticed that Anavar is the best for cutting and burning fat. I have very low body fat and the only reason I wanted to start with ANAVAR was the fact that It has the least side effect. 

Do you guys recommend trying something else that could exclusively help with gaining some weight and muscles > is Dbal a bit too soon or what ?


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## tbody (Jun 17, 2016)

Just curious about my first cycle, don't know what to chose Tren Ace or Test P. I want to use around 50mg.
I didn't found any another appropriate thread to ask, so please could u ask answer me here?


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## theCaptn' (Jun 17, 2016)

Just run test - any ester.

Leave the tren for later. Just in case you grow tits.


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## energymax (Jun 27, 2016)

In his case, what he should use for PCT? 
People recommend NOlVA, but what about proviron or clenbuterol?
Why are against this drugs for PCT?


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## BOGNERrocker (Aug 6, 2016)

Sooo... Which this thread suggests to use aromasin + nolva for pct BUT on ASF forum everything suggests clomid + nolva.... Which is it? 


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## 1Nonly (Mar 3, 2017)

Im a 37yr old 185 lb newb with self-esteem issues. I'm looking to try test to get really strong and look good. Without growing tits! That part kinda worries me. Is it a good idea to just take testosterone by itself? I'm not looking to get massive like the Hulk, more like Captain America lol. So I don't know if I should stack unless its to reduce side effects. I really don't know anything about it, or anyone personally that has done it. So I'm not even sure where to find any. Are there any trustworthy sites online? Any info would be very very much appreciated! Thanks!


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## 1Nonly (Mar 4, 2017)

Sorry for the stupid newbie questions. I just found the beginner areas of the forum. I apologize. But I do have one valid question. What would steroids do for me if I only do body weight exercises? The only equipment I have is a total gym, one set of dumbbells, a pull up bar with arm slings for ab workouts, and a heavy bag... I don't really care to be around people at the gym. Just because of self esteem and anxiety issues. Not that I'm terribly out of shape or anything. I ski all winter and do a lot of kyaking and mountain biking in the summer.


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## Staynattybruh (Mar 4, 2017)

1Nonly said:


> Sorry for the stupid newbie questions. I just found the beginner areas of the forum. I apologize. But I do have one valid question. What would steroids do for me if I only do body weight exercises? The only equipment I have is a total gym, one set of dumbbells, a pull up bar with arm slings for ab workouts, and a heavy bag... I don't really care to be around people at the gym. Just because of self esteem and anxiety issues. Not that I'm terribly out of shape or anything. I ski all winter and do a lot of kyaking and mountain biking in the summer.


Why even take AAS then if you're not going to push your limits? Sounds like you're not really serious about training and looking to find a shortcut. 

Just train and eat right and you'll get what you want out of your body naturally.


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## Pacman1 (Jun 7, 2017)

My heads burnt out need advice. Want to keep it simple for first cycle Gonna run adrostabol from gp and got nolva for pct so could this be used as AI or is it worth getting another addition to cycle e.g Anastrozole or 6 oxo to use during. 

Also if I use Nolva during is it then less effective as PCT and does an AI f**k up gains. 

 feel like I'm doing apprenticeship in pharmaceuticals lol


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## pgc640 (Nov 6, 2018)

I not very famiar with the drug you are planning on using. It a prohirmone of so. some sort.
Anyway,, I'll just suggest what I would suggest to anyone. Test Enanthate or Cyp @500mgs a week. You need to be sure of your source though, make sure two ccs a week is 500 mgs and it's not underdosed. 
If you're really taking 500mgs of test by the third week you will start feeling better in the gym than you ever have, strength up,weight up. Just eat a decent diet. You do not have to get bloated on these drugs, it is all diet related if you eat well you'll look good.
As for estro protection I would first see if anything happened. 500 mgs is moderate dose, it may not cause things like gyno at all. I would take 10 mgs of noveldex a day that will prevent any gyno. The ai's would work alao(noveldex isn't an ai) but at just 500 mgs a week of test I wouldn't put anyone on an ai.
You'll be surprised if this is your first run that little 8-10weeks or whatever of test is going to gain you aliy of weight and if you eat correctly it will be mostly muscle weight. Good luck man.


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## Johnnyboy46 (Nov 21, 2019)

*First cycle*

I?m 5?9 180 Pounds and for my first cycle I?m doing 
Weeks 1&2- 250mg of test E
Weeks 3-8- 500mg of test E
Weeks 1-8 anastrozol .5mg M,W,F
Pct
Week 12 tamoximed 60mg first day 40mg everyday after
Week 13 tamoximed 20 mg everyday

Is this sufficient to stop gyno and any other side effects I could see? All advice and feedback is greatly appreciated.


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## chenmomo (Nov 27, 2019)

Very good article, benefit a lot!


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## Drock138 (Feb 11, 2020)

Great article. Very helpful


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## anton_wayne (Apr 21, 2020)

please someone pm me need info on sites still filling orders for ai and shit


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