# Super slow reps builds muscle?



## god hand (Dec 15, 2005)

This is what I've been hearing and it makes sense. We all hear people say high reps build endurance, but think about it, if your doing your reps fast that's going to build up endurance more than muscle. Just my theory. Please dont get crazy.


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## muscle_01 (Dec 15, 2005)

god hand said:
			
		

> This is what I've been hearing and it makes sense. We all hear people say high reps build endurance, but think about it, if your doing your reps fast that's going to build up endurance more than muscle. Just my theory. Please dont get crazy.



i think its better to do super slower eps cause its harder and u will have much better form


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## Andy_Massaro (Dec 15, 2005)

muscle_01 said:
			
		

> i think its better to do super slower eps cause its harder and u will have much better form




I agree


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## pengers84 (Dec 15, 2005)

super slow reps works well for me!


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## GFR (Dec 15, 2005)

It is a good thing to do once and a while....but it is only a good change up from time to time.


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## garethhe (Dec 15, 2005)

doing reps fast will build more muscle.  here's why...

Newton's Second Law of Motion:
Force=Mass times Acceleration 

take the same weight, and lift it faster, and you've got yourself more force


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## GFR (Dec 15, 2005)

garethhe said:
			
		

> doing reps fast will build more muscle.  here's why...
> 
> Newton's Second Law of Motion:
> Force=Mass times Acceleration
> ...


I agree 23% Newton had huge muscles and was a big sports fitness guy


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## kicka19 (Dec 15, 2005)

garethhe said:
			
		

> doing reps fast will build more muscle.  here's why...
> 
> Newton's Second Law of Motion:
> Force=Mass times Acceleration
> ...



ok tony little, Here is kickas law, do reps at your normal pace, fast reps lead to injury while slow reps can be a good change of pace if used seldomly, lifting is simple and everyone tried to make it hard


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## garethhe (Dec 15, 2005)

a slight edit:  i mean to say that faster reps will destroy more muscle tissue, as greater acceleration causes greater force...and destroying muscle tissue is what you need to do in the gym in order to build muscle outside of the gym.


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## god hand (Dec 15, 2005)

garethhe said:
			
		

> doing reps fast will build more muscle.  here's why...
> 
> Newton's Second Law of Motion:
> Force=Mass times Acceleration
> ...


But when doing this u are not controlling the weight during thr entire rep. It's like if bring the weight down on a BP rep real fast. Instead of u doing the work gravity is.


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## garethhe (Dec 15, 2005)

god hand said:
			
		

> But when doing this u are not controlling the weight during thr entire rep. It's like if bring the weight down on a BP rep real fast. Instead of u doing the work gravity is.



you are right.  when i said lift, i meant lift...as in going up.


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## kicka19 (Dec 15, 2005)

lifting is not simply going up, bring the weight down breaks more muscle fibers supposedly


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## garethhe (Dec 15, 2005)

kicka19 said:
			
		

> lifting is not simply going up, bring the weight down breaks more muscle fibers supposedly



actually, that is the definition of lifting


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## kicka19 (Dec 15, 2005)

dude, you are a moron, so is a negative not lifting?


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## garethhe (Dec 15, 2005)

to make a long story short, an explosive up movement breaks more muscle fibers than a slow and controlled up movement.

it is the opposite on the down movement:  a slow, controlled down movement exerts more force on the muscle fibers than a fast down movement, since, as god hand pointed out, gravity does more of the work when you drop a weight quickly.


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## garethhe (Dec 15, 2005)

kicka19 said:
			
		

> dude, you are a moron, so is a negative not lifting?



that is correct, a negative is not lifting.  and yes, i am a moron who is familiar with the meaning of everyday words, like "lift".  look it up if you don't believe me.


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## GFR (Dec 15, 2005)

garethhe said:
			
		

> to make a long story short, an explosive up movement breaks more muscle fibers than a slow and controlled up movement.
> 
> it is the opposite on the down movement:  a slow, controlled down movement exerts more force on the muscle fibers than a fast down movement, since, as god hand pointed out, gravity does more of the work when you drop a weight quickly.


Post the studies to back up your silly opinions kid.


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## garethhe (Dec 15, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Post the studies to back up your silly opinions kid.



no thank you.  if you choose not to believe in physics, that is entirely up to you.


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## kicka19 (Dec 15, 2005)

garethhe said:
			
		

> that is correct, a negative is not lifting.  and yes, i am a moron who is familiar with the meaning of everyday words, like "lift".  look it up if you don't believe me.



when the word lifting is used in a BB forum it means exercising in a way to break muscle fibers, which in turn creates muscle growth. lifting does not mean pushing an objecting in the air as you may think. anyone wana back me up on this shit? this seems like a simple concept


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## kicka19 (Dec 15, 2005)

you do your "eplosive movements" on your 10 lbs inclines, send me the pictures of your torn pecs, ill masterbate to them


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## garethhe (Dec 15, 2005)

kicka19 said:
			
		

> you do your "eplosive movements" on your 10 lbs inclines, send me the pictures of your torn pecs, ill masterbate to them



your rhetorical skills are stunning in both elegance and effectiveness.

i am so flamed!

as for you, kicka19, i have no further interest in participating in a disagreement that has sunk to such a sad level.  the purpose of this thread was to discuss whether or not super slow reps build muscle.


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## GFR (Dec 15, 2005)

garethhe said:
			
		

> no thank you.  if you choose not to believe in physics, that is entirely up to you.


I believe you are full of shit, and jumping on some bull shit band wagon.....with 0 evidence to back it up......as you have shown.....pathetic


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## garethhe (Dec 15, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> I believe you are full of shit, and jumping on some bull shit band wagon.....with 0 evidence to back it up......as you have shown.....pathetic



in order for me to go through the time and effort to prove that using the laws of physics are relevant to building muscle, i would have to care what you think.


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## Mudge (Dec 15, 2005)

god hand said:
			
		

> This is what I've been hearing and it makes sense. We all hear people say high reps build endurance, but think about it, if your doing your reps fast that's going to build up endurance more than muscle. Just my theory. Please dont get crazy.



Endurance? How about altheticism and explosive power. I wasn't aware sprinters were endurance athletes.

Endurance is about slow and steady, I dont know where your theories come from bro.


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## GFR (Dec 15, 2005)

garethhe said:
			
		

> in order for me to go through the time and effort to prove that using the laws of physics are relevant to building muscle, i would have to care what you think.


The law of Physics has 0 to do with styles of weight lifting dummy....
Go sell your bull shit on another site troll.


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## Mudge (Dec 15, 2005)

garethhe said:
			
		

> that is correct, a negative is not lifting.  and yes, i am a moron who is familiar with the meaning of everyday words, like "lift".  look it up if you don't believe me.



The negative is neccessary for the stretch reflex response, and a quick forcefull positive. The negative also destroys more of the muscle fiber than a positive.

I'm not sure if we are agreeing here or what.


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## kicka19 (Dec 15, 2005)

garethhe said:
			
		

> your rhetorical skills are stunning in both elegance and effectiveness.
> 
> i am so flamed!
> 
> as for you, kicka19, i have no further interest in participating in a disagreement that has sunk to such a sad level.  the purpose of this thread was to discuss whether or not super slow reps build muscle.



I dont post with perfect grammer, i dont care, i post to learn information about "lifting" and to help others when i can. when you have years of lifting under your belt come back and talk to all of us like you know something, before that you can sit back and learn alot, look around your gym, how many big strong guys are throwing wieghts around real fast? probably none, your see some lil 15 year old kids not knowing what there doing doen that, my guess is thats you


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## garethhe (Dec 15, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> The negative is neccessary for the stretch reflex response, and a quick forcefull positive. The negative also destroys more of the muscle fiber than a positive.
> 
> I'm not sure if we are agreeing here or what.



we are in agreement.  at no point did i mean to imply that the negative is unneccessary.  i've already said here that the down portion is also relevant for tearing muscle fiber.


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## CowPimp (Dec 15, 2005)

There are advantages to performing the eccentric portion of a lift at a slower tempo.  Microtrauma to skeletal muscle is increased, and subsequently the hypertrophy response should also increase.  However, one must be careful with this kind of training.  Along with the increased damage to the muscles being worked comes increased need for proper nutrition, rest, and additional recovery time.  It is my opinion that volume and frequency must be adjusted when accentuating the negative portion of a repetition, or a deloading phase must follow shortly thereafter.

As far as I can tell, there is no advantage to perofrming the concentric portion of a lift at a slow tempo.  Explosive is best.  This allows you to recruit higher threshold motor units, and subsequently more type IIB muscle fibers, in order to generate the necessary force to allow for compensatory acceleration.


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## Mudge (Dec 15, 2005)

Francois Benfatto used to lift slowly, for those historians out there. I thougth he looked pretty awesome, but he was one of the tiny guys of his day. He was shredded via diet.

He lifted so slowly and perfectly he looked like a sculptor at work. In other words, it looked kinda gay and artsy.

He was striated from head to toe.


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## garethhe (Dec 15, 2005)

"to make a long story short, an explosive up movement breaks more muscle fibers than a slow and controlled up movement.

it is the opposite on the down movement: a slow, controlled down movement exerts more force on the muscle fibers than a fast down movement, since, as god hand pointed out, gravity does more of the work when you drop a weight quickly."

is what i said here different in any substantial way from what you are saying, Cowpimp?


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## CowPimp (Dec 15, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Francois Benfatto used to lift slowly, for those historians out there. I thougth he looked pretty awesome, but he was one of the tiny guys of his day. He was shredded via diet.
> 
> He lifted so slowly and perfectly he looked like a sculptor at work. In other words, it looked kinda gay and artsy.
> 
> He was striated from head to toe.



I'm not suggesting that you cannot build muscle by lifting slowly.  Surely you can.  However, I still feel that optimal results can be achieved by using explosive concentrics.


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## kicka19 (Dec 15, 2005)

garethhe said:
			
		

> "to make a long story short, an explosive up movement breaks more muscle fibers than a slow and controlled up movement.
> 
> it is the opposite on the down movement: a slow, controlled down movement exerts more force on the muscle fibers than a fast down movement, since, as god hand pointed out, gravity does more of the work when you drop a weight quickly."
> 
> is what i said here different in any substantial way from what you are saying, Cowpimp?



i will never do a fast upward or downward movement, always a controled movement or your asking for trouble


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## CowPimp (Dec 15, 2005)

garethhe said:
			
		

> "to make a long story short, an explosive up movement breaks more muscle fibers than a slow and controlled up movement.
> 
> it is the opposite on the down movement: a slow, controlled down movement exerts more force on the muscle fibers than a fast down movement, since, as god hand pointed out, gravity does more of the work when you drop a weight quickly."
> 
> is what i said here different in any substantial way from what you are saying, Cowpimp?



Sort of.  Recruiting muscle fibers and damaging muscle fibers are two different things.  You can recruit muscle fibers without damaging them.  The vast majority of tissue trauma occurs during the eccentric portion of the lift.  However, you can take advantage of increased neural adaptations and fatigue high threshold muscle fibers by using compensatory acceleration.


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## CowPimp (Dec 15, 2005)

kicka19 said:
			
		

> i will never do a fast upward or downward movement, always a controled movement or your asking for trouble



Always control the lift, obviously.  However, you can be fast on the positive portion of a lift and still maintain good form.  Look at olympic lifters. They have no choice but to be fast.


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## garethhe (Dec 15, 2005)

the compensatory acceleration part is where you lose me


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## CowPimp (Dec 15, 2005)

garethhe said:
			
		

> the compensatory acceleration part is where you lose me



That's just accelerating a weight as fast as you can.


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## garethhe (Dec 15, 2005)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> That's just accelerating a weight as fast as you can.



I see, thank you.  And accelerating a weight on the concentric phase is exactly what I've been talking about here, using Force=Mass times Acceleration.


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## GFR (Dec 15, 2005)




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## brogers (Dec 16, 2005)

I always thought it was good to explode on the concentric portion, and use a slow, controlled eccentric (2-4 seconds).  Regarding hypertrophy, my personal experience is that a focus on strength in the weight room, with a good caloric surplus yields better results than anything else.  Increase load seems to be the best stimulus for growth.  This may be just me personally, however.


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## 1xDeatHsHeaDx3 (Dec 16, 2005)

*=-o*

I watched the Ronnie Coleman Unbelievable video (thx bro)
And have you seen how fast he was lifting some of his weights, I was a little shocked, but he's massive.


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## P-funk (Dec 16, 2005)

the human body is a series of class three levers (except for a few muscles) which lend themselves to greater amounts of speed development.   Also, the CNS wants to revruit motor units as fast as possible.  If you train fast (power training, plyo's etc..) you will move fast and more explosivelly.  If you train slow, you will be slow as you are allowing your CNS to recruit these motor units at a slower pace and it ofcourse adapts to that because that is what the body does.


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## Mudge (Dec 16, 2005)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> I'm not suggesting that you cannot build muscle by lifting slowly.  Surely you can.  However, I still feel that optimal results can be achieved by using explosive concentrics.



Dont think that I'm trying to disagree with you.


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## CowPimp (Dec 16, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Dont think that I'm trying to disagree with you.



Let's fight about it.  Hehe.


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## Tha Don (Dec 16, 2005)

god hand said:
			
		

> This is what I've been hearing and it makes sense. We all hear people say high reps build endurance, but think about it, if your doing your reps fast that's going to build up endurance more than muscle. Just my theory. Please dont get crazy.


explosive/forcefull reps build more muscle and strength in my experience, the faster you lift the weight the more force you are using, this is better, followed by a steady controlled negative, then bang that weight out again

lifting slow is a poor choice for athletes too, esp. sprinters and boxers, as they get used to the slow movements, its important for them to lift explosive so they can build maximum power for sports


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## Arnold (Dec 16, 2005)

Anyone ever heard of TUT (time under tension)? 

I think you should incorporate both slow and explosive reps into your training.


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## Thunder (Dec 16, 2005)

The primary triggers for muscle hypertrophy are mechanical load/tension, density, and total time under tension. Load and tension is simply the amount of weight lifted. The more you lift, the greater the level of intramuscular tension. The greater the intramuscular tension, the greater the amount of protein degradation and resultant amino acid uptake by your muscles. 

On the topic of maximizing intramuscular tension, two other things that work to increase intramuscular tension are explosive concentric contractions and slow eccentric contractions. In a practical sense, this simply means that increasing the speed of the overcoming portion of your rep and decreasing the speed of the yielding portion of your rep will result in increased intramuscular tension. 

Total time under tension is associated with volume. Note, that this doesn???t necessarily mean the time under tension of each set, but the cumulative effect of all sets over the course of a workout. Doing more sets increases the total time a given muscle is under tension. As well, manipulating the tempo of a rep also affects time under tension (i.e. longer eccentrics). While loading/tension and density are the key triggers for maximum muscle growth, sufficient ??? but not excessive ??? volume helps manifest these structural adaptations. This tends to be an important factor in the overall amount of muscle growth achieved as it results in greater levels of protein degradation. 

In the end, the keys to maximum muscle growth are high levels of muscular fatigue, intramuscular tension, and motor unit activation. 

Manipulate the eccentric speed, but 9 times out of 10, the concentric should be fast.


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## CowPimp (Dec 16, 2005)

Thunder said:
			
		

> The primary triggers for muscle hypertrophy are mechanical load/tension, density, and total time under tension. Load and tension is simply the amount of weight lifted. The more you lift, the greater the level of intramuscular tension. The greater the intramuscular tension, the greater the amount of protein degradation and resultant amino acid uptake by your muscles.
> 
> On the topic of maximizing intramuscular tension, two other things that work to increase intramuscular tension are explosive concentric contractions and slow eccentric contractions. In a practical sense, this simply means that increasing the speed of the overcoming portion of your rep and decreasing the speed of the yielding portion of your rep will result in increased intramuscular tension.
> 
> ...



Well stated.  Another way to increase the time under tension in each set is to simply perform more repetitions. Let's say you perform 8 repetitions with a 2 down/1 up tempo; you could achieve equal time under tension by performing 12 repetitions with a 1 down/1 up tempo.  In the end, you should still be able to move approximately the same amount of weight using either method.  However, if you choose to increase time under tension by using a slower tempo, it should be the eccentric that is accentuated.


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## god hand (Dec 16, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Endurance? How about altheticism and explosive power. I wasn't aware sprinters were endurance athletes.
> 
> Endurance is about slow and steady, I dont know where your theories come from bro.


You didnt give your opinon, do u think it builds muscle faster or not!


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## Nick+ (Dec 16, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Francois Benfatto used to lift slowly, for those historians out there. I thougth he looked pretty awesome, but he was one of the tiny guys of his day. He was shredded via diet.
> 
> He lifted so slowly and perfectly he looked like a sculptor at work. In other words, it looked kinda gay and artsy.
> 
> He was striated from head to toe.



I also wonder if he did  ever take steroids?.Many years ago in a Weider (Muscle and Fitness from Autumn 1993 I think) I remember reading he didn't want to get into Pro BB{maybe because of all the steroids and shit}. 

Yes he did often seem 'artsy', one of the things  I read about him on the internet was that his head was far too big, for the rest of his body (maybe a valid point).


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## Yanick (Dec 16, 2005)

Thunder said:
			
		

> The primary triggers for muscle hypertrophy are mechanical load/tension, density, and total time under tension. Load and tension is simply the amount of weight lifted. The more you lift, the greater the level of intramuscular tension. The greater the intramuscular tension, the greater the amount of protein degradation and resultant amino acid uptake by your muscles.
> 
> On the topic of maximizing intramuscular tension, two other things that work to increase intramuscular tension are explosive concentric contractions and slow eccentric contractions. In a practical sense, this simply means that increasing the speed of the overcoming portion of your rep and decreasing the speed of the yielding portion of your rep will result in increased intramuscular tension.
> 
> ...



great post


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## NeilPearson (Dec 16, 2005)

The important physics idea behind weight lifting is IMPULSE

Impulse = force * time

Since you are counteracting gravity, even if the weight isn't moving you have a force of 9.81 m/s^2

The longer this force is exerted, the higher the impulse force.  Increasing the force without decreasing the time is impossible without increasing the weight.  However you can increase the time without a large decrease in force since you have to continuous overcome gravity no matter how slow you go.


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## garethhe (Dec 16, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> The important physics idea behind weight lifting is IMPULSE
> 
> Impulse = force * time
> 
> ...



If  
      Impulse = force * time 
and 
      force= mass * acceleration
then can we say
      Impulse = mass * acceleration * time ?

if so, we can factor in "Time Under Tension"  as previously mentioned


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## Mudge (Dec 16, 2005)

god hand said:
			
		

> You didnt give your opinon, do u think it builds muscle faster or not!



The routine I use currently has nothing to do with time under tension or repetition speed, but in performing sets of 5/10/15 approximately per movement utilized.

I mentioned Francois in part, because he is small and did very slow repetitions. I believe working slowly is anti-performance related, and in everything that I said by mentioning sprinters for example should be clue enough that I think training slowly is akin to endurance training which does not lead to huge size or strength.

Sprinters are powerfull and muscular, endurance athletes who train slower and for longer periods are not.


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## Mudge (Dec 16, 2005)

Nick+ said:
			
		

> I also wonder if he did  ever take steroids?.Many years ago in a Weider (Muscle and Fitness from Autumn 1993 I think) I remember reading he didn't want to get into Pro BB{maybe because of all the steroids and shit}.



I would not doubt for a second that he took steroids, I never thought he was so gifted to be natural, despite him being a 'little' smaller than other pros of the era. He wasn't tiny, but he was worried about balance and being ripped more than other people of the time (except maybe for the gay Bob Paris who was certainly not as ripped).


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## CowPimp (Dec 16, 2005)

NeilPearson said:
			
		

> The important physics idea behind weight lifting is IMPULSE
> 
> Impulse = force * time
> 
> ...



You're off base here.  How can the force you are exerting be a measure of acceleration?  You're missing something here.  Force is measured in Newtons.  That is (mass * acceleration).  It wouldn't make sense that regardless of the weight you are attempting to move, you exert the same force even if it isn't moving.

9.81m/s^2 is the acceleration imposed by gravity on any object.  However, the force of gravity on any object is (9.81m/s^2) * (mass of the object).  Gravity pulls harder on objects with more mass.  Force is also known as weight.  The kilogram is actually a measure of mass, but we use it instead of Newtons because the force of gravity is relatively constant on planet Earth.  However, pounds is actually a measure of weight.


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## god hand (Dec 16, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Sprinters are powerfull and muscular, endurance athletes who train slower and for longer periods are not.



Well u are right about the sprinters. They are huge and ripped as fuck! But I have no idea of how they train and I think most use steriods


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## Arnold (Dec 17, 2005)

Nick+ said:
			
		

> I also wonder if he did  ever take steroids?.Many years ago in a Weider (Muscle and Fitness from Autumn 1993 I think) I remember reading he didn't want to get into Pro BB{maybe because of all the steroids and shit}.



it would be quite a stretch to believe any IFBB pro is/was natural.


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## SuperFlex (Dec 17, 2005)

More than one way to get more swole than a bowl! Mix it up...


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## shiznit2169 (Dec 18, 2005)

As far exploding on the concentric portion of the lift, it's easy to do for the first 3-5 reps (depending on which exercise you're doing), but once you are getting fatigued and fighting for the last couple of reps .. you get to the point where you have to push with all your might on the concentric to complete the set.

One example is the DB Bench Press. I can easily explode with 80 pound dumbbells on the first 3-4 reps but then it starts to get difficult since the eccentric portion is slow and my arms become fatigued.


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## Nick+ (Dec 18, 2005)

Interesting about Benfatto, he has disappeared without a trace.......selling supplements I think.

When talking about 'super slow' , how slow is slow? 

 Ellington Darden's "Big" (1994?)which I bought in that year stipulated  10 seconds up  and 5 seconds down per repetition.(And advised one to use a clock with a 'sweeping' seconds hand so as to get the timing right.......)  And only one set per exercise...

Although I don't throw weights  (when I lift them at that is  )  I think the above was a bit extreme....  maybe used for a short period as a variation to one's training..

Darden seemed quite into changing his mind, In "High Intensity Home Training" published a year later (I think) He advocated  5 and not 10 seconds  . I may have got some facts wrong here , as I got rid of those books some years ago...


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## Super Hulk (Dec 18, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> I agree 23% Newton had huge muscles and was a big sports fitness guy



he must have got hit it the head when he was a kid... with an apple if you know what i mean


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## Carl Nevins (Dec 18, 2005)

I sometimes like closing my eyes while doing some lifts, and concentrate on the muscles being worked, and also try to make each rep from begining to end be as smoothly executed as possible.  Smooth fluid movements.


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## jLefty (May 17, 2011)

garethhe said:


> "to make a long story short, an explosive up movement breaks more muscle fibers than a slow and controlled up movement.
> 
> it is the opposite on the down movement: a slow, controlled down movement exerts more force on the muscle fibers than a fast down movement, since, as god hand pointed out, gravity does more of the work when you drop a weight quickly."
> 
> is what i said here different in any substantial way from what you are saying, Cowpimp?


 Article from Exercise RX


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