# reps



## BringDaBlitz94 (Nov 30, 2006)

i want to get lean, cut and visible muscle but i need to know how many reps i shuld do with my weights? if i curl (i do this every other day and some people say its a waste of time but i like it) how much shuld i do in order to get lean, cut, visible muslces? shuld i do light weights with many reps, not to heavy weights (ones that are perfect for me) or heavy weights for less reps???? either way can someone tell me wat amount of weight works best and how many reps and sets???


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## P-funk (Nov 30, 2006)

getting lean and cut is abotu diet, not rep ranges.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Nov 30, 2006)

BringDaBlitz94 said:


> i want to get lean, cut and visible muscle but i need to know how many reps i shuld do with my weights? if i curl (i do this every other day and some people say its a waste of time but i like it) how much shuld i do in order to get lean, cut, visible muslces? shuld i do light weights with many reps, not to heavy weights (ones that are perfect for me) or heavy weights for less reps???? either way can someone tell me wat amount of weight works best and how many reps and sets???



Reps are not the answer, however they can help.  Let's back up here and take a look at something much more beneficial and vital to your success at becoming lean and achieve a superior overall well-being.

Diet is the absolute most important piece in the fitness equation.  60% of the way you directly look and feel is diet related.  

The rest in in the gym: 
20% cardiovascular exercise and 20% weight resistance.  Do not neglect the wt. resistance training as this will burn more calories and increase your metabolism more than cardio training alone.  As far as cardio goes try performing, almost exclusively, interval training as this will greatly increase your metabolic rate.

As long as you eat a good balance of protein, carbohydrates(lower Glycemic index carbs), and dietary fat(coconut oil, seed oils, olive oil, peanuts and peanut butter/oil) you will provide your body with the nutrition it needs in order to recover in ample time.

I recommend that you eat 5 - 6 square meals a day.  This will not only keep your metabolism going, but also offer much more energy to your body.  Again each meal must consist of a balance of quality protein, (i.e. lean meats, eggs, fish, etc.) carbohydrates (low Glycemic indexed), and dietary fats based on not only your body weight and type, but also your fitness goals. 

_TO FIND OUT MORE INFORMATION ON DIET AND NUTRITION PLEASE SEE THE A.B.1 SYSTEMS SMART NUTRITION BOOK._

Eat your 5-6 meals throughout the day every 2 or 3 hours and this will put you on a good track to a great and healthy body. 

If you are someone who does not eat very many fruits or veggies, like me, then I recommend you take a great multivitamin that will supplement your lack of nutrients.  No matter how extensive your workouts are your body will require some sort of micro-trauma healing within the muscles- especially your heart.

Now back to your original question of how many reps.  You can perform a higher amount of reps such as 15-100 per set and be able to achieve a great endurance and conditioning goal as well as become stronger.  You can also perform low reps such as ranges below 15 and as far down as 3-5 over a few sets.  The later is more likely to bulk you; however diet is the ultimate factor in getting and staying lean.

I hope that helps.  Please let me know if there is anything else I can do for you.


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## Raz (Nov 30, 2006)

You should do both light and heavy rep workouts. Do some tension work at 4-6reps then more metabolic work at 8-12 reps. Mix it up. You can see which your body responds to best and do that the majority of the time but your body adapts quickly so essentially its best to switch things once in awhile. Periodization is the key.

Getting cut up is all about diet! Go over to the diet forum post your's and get some valuable responses. Remember to post your stats too. Good luck!


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## BringDaBlitz94 (Nov 30, 2006)

ooo but someone told me 100 was too much and my arms would shrink becuase i work on my arms every other day


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Nov 30, 2006)

BringDaBlitz94 said:


> ooo but someone told me 100 was too much and my arms would shrink becuase i work on my arms every other day



In my opinion, and I have been personal training for about 9 years, is that you are greatly overtraining your arms.  In fact if you took a week off from performing direct arm exercises my bet is that you will not only get stronger in your arms, but also grow in size too.

Always remember:  Recovery Proceeds Growth!


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## Raz (Nov 30, 2006)

BringDaBlitz94 said:


> ooo but someone told me 100 was too much and my arms would shrink becuase i work on my arms every other day



Nobody can determine how it will work for you! There is way too many variables to predict how you it will turn out. Such as diet/nutrtion, lifestyle, recovery ability, the rest of your programme, sleep.

IMO training arms directly every other day, is overkill and would probably actually be detrimental for myself and I'm sure many others too. Post the whole of you training programme so we can have a better idea of how your doing and help point you in the right direction.


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## Witchblade (Nov 30, 2006)

Post your routine and read the stickies.

What you're doing now is about 0.25 times as effective as what you could do, probably.

Curls suck.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Nov 30, 2006)

I think(and hope) this basic principle assists you with your program design. 

*-The F.I.T. Principle-

The effectiveness of your exercise depends on three factors:

*how often you exercise
*how hard you exercise
*how long you exercise

at each workout session.*

These ingredients make up the FIT Principle which stands for:
Frequency, Intensity, and Time.

To achieve fitness you need to meet minimum standards for each FIT factor. 

_*Remember when training- Less Is More. *_ 

Do your absolute best to never train a sore muscle as this can lead to overtraining.  Soreness comes by muscle hypertrophy. When intense resistance exercise is performed the muscles undergo a sort of micro-trauma. When this occurs they leak hydroxyprolene-acid. This acid is what makes muscles sore.

In order to overcome soreness and quickly relieve it one must stay over-hydrated by drinking a lot of water and allowing the body to get plenty of sleep(at least 8-9 hours a night).

Since recovery proceeds growth one MUST sleep well and rest well when not sleeping.

NEVER resistance train a sore muscle as this will simply put damage upon damage. Cardio conditioning and stretching exercises are fine while sore as this will assist the recovery process in flushing out the acid as well as re-lubricating the joints. ALWAYS allow for recovery time or over-training will occur. Over-training is indeed a syndrome that many athletes experience and often times never realize it. Signs of over-training will be a loss of appetite, irregular sleep to insomnia patterns, constipation, head-aches, continued sore muscles, progress plateaus, decreased immune system(illness or colds possible), muscle loss, and increased chance of injury to name a few.

It is one thing to train hard and quite another to train smart.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Nov 30, 2006)

Witchblade said:


> Post your routine and read the stickies.
> 
> What you're doing now is about 0.25 times as effective as what you could do, probably.
> 
> Curls suck.



I couldn't agree more.  I NEVER do them. 

Allow me to quickly compare functional form of strength to a non-functional form of strength through a particular exercise.  Take the bicep curl, in its many forms- it is a non-functional exercise as you almost never do anything in life that requires just that part of your body to move in that exact way.  Now picture the pull-up with your palms facing you. This is definitely working the bicep, shoulder, back, forearm grip, and most of all abs/core strength. This is a functional exercise and one that will produce some of the absolute best overall results.


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## Witchblade (Nov 30, 2006)

Actually, we don't know what muscle soreness is. We do know that it's not directly related to hyperthrophy though.

You can train your muscles when they're sore, just don't overkill it. And don't do it when they're extremely sore.

The advice about rest, diet and overtraining is good however.


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## BringDaBlitz94 (Nov 30, 2006)

wat do u mean by soreness? after i lift i feel some stretch or tenseness in my muscles...is that ok?? and if i dont feel that the nex day i workout can i lift that day??


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Nov 30, 2006)

BringDaBlitz94 said:


> wat do u mean by soreness? after i lift i feel some stretch or tenseness in my muscles...is that ok?? and if i dont feel that the nex day i workout can i lift that day??



Soreness is the achy and tender feeling your muscles get after training.  Most people experience some degree of soreness, but there are those who never do. This is merely a genetic ability to rapid recovery or even to simply flush out the toxins causing soreness.  Diet & rest is vital to constant progress.


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## BringDaBlitz94 (Nov 30, 2006)

so wats the tenseness/stretch i feel?


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Nov 30, 2006)

BringDaBlitz94 said:


> so wats the tenseness/stretch i feel?



The tightness of the muscle directly after it has gone through the eccentric & concentric movements during training.


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## BringDaBlitz94 (Nov 30, 2006)

can doing bicep curls rele make my arms and muscles smaller??


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## P-funk (Nov 30, 2006)

BringDaBlitz94 said:


> can doing bicep curls rele make my arms and muscles smaller??



a) what is your infatuation with bicep curls?

b) bicep curls aren't going to make you a better athlete on the football field.


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## BringDaBlitz94 (Nov 30, 2006)

well wat lifts can help me build my biceps and triceps??


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## P-funk (Nov 30, 2006)

i gave you that answer in your other thread.  go read it.  it is the first post.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Nov 30, 2006)

BringDaBlitz94 said:


> well wat lifts can help me build my biceps and triceps??



Unles your are trying to be a Body Builder there is really no need, except in therapy, for isolated movements such as bicep curls.

Right now you or someone else(magazines maybe) have corrupted your thinking into believing that traditional isolation BB exercises are a superior form of training hen they are far, far from it.

As already mentioned you need to train compound movements such as snatches and closed chain movements such as pullups. These will develop your entire body synergistically as nature intends rather than one body prt at a time.

By training this way you will be a far superior athlete as well as human being than those who train otherwise.


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## StanUk (Nov 30, 2006)

Seriously, you need to start listening to what these people are saying and stop doing some many damn curls! You need to focus on a full body routine, if only you knew how much you would stand to gain if you dropped the 100 curls a day malarky and concentrated on working your whole body.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Nov 30, 2006)

StanUk said:


> Seriously, you need to start listening to what these people are saying and stop doing some many damn curls! You need to focus on a full body routine, if only you knew how much you would stand to gain if you dropped the 100 curls a day malarky and concentrated on working your whole body.



Amen!


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## slip (Nov 30, 2006)

and if you did start working your arms effectively, youre going to look stupid if your arms are out of proportion to the rest of your body.  "hah look at him, probably just goes to the gym every 2nd day and does curls...."  Bodybuilders need big arms, normal guys need well proportioned physiques.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Nov 30, 2006)

slip said:


> and if you did start working your arms effectively, youre going to look stupid if your arms are out of proportion to the rest of your body.  "hah look at him, probably just goes to the gym every 2nd day and does curls...."  Bodybuilders need big arms, normal guys need well proportioned physiques.



And on top of that, because I have worked in the gym environments for years, I can easily spot those guys who just train chest and biceps.  It is very, very common and why they do this I will never know.  Training for aesthetics is one this, but actually looking good is quite another- chicken legs, small tris and no back make up an idiot who thinks they lift hard.  

Just because you have a big chest and get an occasional bicep burn doesn't make you a bodybuilder or even a good lifter.


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## Mudge (Nov 30, 2006)

Plus, titties and biceps makes for an awful physique on a man.


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## BringDaBlitz94 (Dec 1, 2006)

well u mean that titties and biceps that are out of proportion from other muscles in ur body are ugly rite??


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## BringDaBlitz94 (Dec 1, 2006)

because everyone is tellin me how much benching helps but now ur sayin that it looks ugly since it mostly works ur chest. and do u no any tricep exercises that i culd do at home wit free weights???


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## Gazhole (Dec 1, 2006)

BringDaBlitz94 said:


> because everyone is tellin me how much benching helps but now ur sayin that it looks ugly since it mostly works ur chest. and do u no any tricep exercises that i culd do at home wit free weights???


 
Military Press.

And what people are saying is that JUST benching and JUST doing curls at the expense of everything else will produce bad results.

You have other muscles - train them.


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## SAMIAM (Dec 1, 2006)

Try this simple routine for a few weeks -

Flat bench
Military press
Barbell Rows
Deadlifts/squats (alternate each W/O)


each W/O take ONE exersize from the first three(bench, military, rows)and do 10 sets of 3 reps, always rotating thru the list each W/O. Do 4(sets)x6(reps) for the the other two , and on deads/squats always do 6 singles (each set is a single rep)each W/O.

On 10x3's you want to use an amount of weight that you can only lift 6 times with good form if performed in a single set(what you would "fail" on the 7th rep with) rest as long as you need between sets, but each W/O strive to keep shortening this time even if it's only in slight increments. 

On the 4x6's use 10-15% less weight (use a calculator) than you're using on the same exersize for your 10x3's.

On the deads/Squats always go as heavy as possible pulling back when you feel close to failure.

After each W/O take the next two days off for recovery(3 if nessessary).As a newb you will be able to put between 5-20 lbs. on to each exersize every W/O  and will be able to continue this constant and rapid progression for at least 2-3 months before worrying about "deloading" or changing routines, ect.

Keep a notebook, pen and little calculator by your weights, record each set and weight along with date and how long each W/O takes.

try to complete the W/O in 30-45 minutes if at all possible , definitely under an hour.

Seriously, do this -  keep it simple (as is) don't "tweak it" , and you WILL astound yourself.


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## StanUk (Dec 1, 2006)

alwaysbelieve1 said:


> And on top of that, because I have worked in the gym environments for years, I can easily spot those guys who just train chest and biceps.  It is very, very common and why they do this I will never know.  Training for aesthetics is one this, but actually looking good is quite another- chicken legs, small tris and no back make up an idiot who thinks they lift hard.
> 
> Just because you have a big chest and get an occasional bicep burn doesn't make you a bodybuilder or even a good lifter.



Yep, this is all too true and is a common occurence. 

By the way, in your avatar, you look a lot like Hando from Romper Stomper


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## Mudge (Dec 1, 2006)

BringDaBlitz94 said:


> because everyone is tellin me how much benching helps but now ur sayin that it looks ugly since it mostly works ur chest. and do u no any tricep exercises that i culd do at home wit free weights???



Benching is a compound movement it doesn't just hit the chest.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

Mudge said:


> Benching is a compound movement it doesn't just hit the chest.



The closest benching gets to being compound, which it is not since it doesn't incorporate the legs within a proper range of motion, is when you are dumbbell chest pressing(benching style) on the stability ball since that way your scapular is not impeded.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

StanUk said:


> Yep, this is all too true and is a common occurence.
> 
> By the way, in your avatar, you look a lot like Hando from Romper Stomper



I never saw that, but hope that is a good thing. 

Oh and one more thing to our curling/benching friend...
The tricep takes up approximately 60% of the arm when compared to the biceps so if you want big arms- train tris.  

Now don't get me wrong by thinking I'm saying isolate and train tris exclusively.  I am not, by any means.  What I mean when I say that is train them by performing movements which incorporate them such as Military/Push presses along with Cleans, etc. just as the biceps are worked very well in Pullups, Rows, etc.


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## largepkg (Dec 1, 2006)

alwaysbelieve1 said:


> *The closest benching gets to being compound, which it is not since it doesn't incorporate the legs within a proper range of motion*, is when you are dumbbell chest pressing(benching style) on the stability ball since that way your scapular is not impeded.




Excuse me? Please elaborate on this before...


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

largepkg said:


> Excuse me? Please elaborate on this before...



Sure the exercise known as the bench can literally be labeled as a "compound exercise", simply because it works more than one muscle while performing it.  So does bicep curls as it also uses the forearm muscles, deltoids & abs(since they are the first to fire no matter what you are doing), etc.

Compound exercises are exercises that work a combination of two or more muscle groups rolled into one exercise.  The bench does indeed fall into this category, but what I specifically meant(and think was misunderstood about) was that there is a much better way of doing it without impeding the scapular while performing- such as using the SB and pressing DBs.  Since the bench itself highly impedes the full range function of the scapular the back cannot properly support the chest/ shoulders.  On the SB it can.

I hope this makes more sense this time.   Sorry for the confusion.


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## tucker01 (Dec 1, 2006)

I thought compound exercises referred to multi-joint excercizes


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## mike456 (Dec 1, 2006)

IainDaniel said:


> I thought compound exercises referred to multi-joint excercizes



you are right, he is wrong. With his philosiphy curls are a compound exercise.


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## tucker01 (Dec 1, 2006)

mike456 said:


> you are right, he is wrong. With his philosiphy curls are a compound exercise.




Thanks I was being sarcastic


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## tucker01 (Dec 1, 2006)

dammit I even have firefox 2.0 and ignore the spelling feature


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## mike456 (Dec 1, 2006)

alwaysbelieve1 said:


> Sure the exercise known as the bench can literally be labeled as a "compound exercise", simply because it works more than one muscle while performing it.  So does bicep curls as it also uses the forearm muscles, deltoids & abs(since they are the first to fire no matter what you are doing), etc.
> 
> Compound exercises are exercises that work a combination of two or more muscle groups rolled into one exercise.  The bench does indeed fall into this category, but what I specifically meant(and think was misunderstood about) was that there is a much better way of doing it without impeding the scapular while performing- such as using the SB and pressing DBs.  Since the bench itself highly impedes the full range function of the scapular the back cannot properly support the chest/ shoulders.  On the SB it can.
> 
> I hope this makes more sense this time.   Sorry for the confusion.



every exercise works more than one muscle.

compound exercises are multi-joint (ie- benchpress, shoulder and elbow joint)

isolation exercises are single-joint (ie- curls, elbow joint only)

just because it is an isolation exercise does not mean that it is isolating a muscle, it is isolating a joint


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

mike456 said:


> you are right, he is wrong. With his philosiphy curls are a compound exercise.



I am not wrong.  Google search the terms: "compound exercises" and "compound movements" and see what definitions you get just from a couple of the first 4 websites. 

I'm not trying to start a debate here, but in my opinion the combination of both our definitions is right.  I didn't get into joint usage as we were simply speaking of muscle usage at the time.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

Here are the exact definitions as described on the Glossary of Structural Kinesiology & Weight Training.

*Basic

          A principal exercise that can place greater absolute intensity on the muscles exercised relative to auxiliary exercises. 

    Auxiliary

          An optional exercise that may supplement a basic exercise. Auxiliary exercises may place greater relative intensity on a specific muscle or a head of a muscle. 

    Compound

          An exercise that involves two or more joint movements. 

    Isolated

          An exercise that involves just one discernible joint movement. *

I agree with this most definitely.


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## tucker01 (Dec 1, 2006)

Everything I read refers to the joint.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

IainDaniel said:


> Everything I read refers to the joint.



Agreed.


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## mike456 (Dec 1, 2006)

alwaysbelieve1 said:


> I am not wrong.  Google search the terms: "compound exercises" and "compound movements" and see what definitions you get just from a couple of the first 4 websites.
> 
> I'm not trying to start a debate here, but in my opinion the combination of both our definitions is right.  I didn't get into joint usage as we were simply speaking of muscle usage at the time.



I don't care what google brings up, compound exercises are exercises that use more than one joint.

with your philosiphy, every exercise is a compound exercise.


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## P-funk (Dec 1, 2006)

compound movements have to do with JOINTS, and moving more than one joint through a range of motion.  A bench press is an example of this.


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## mike456 (Dec 1, 2006)

alwaysbelieve1 said:


> Here are the exact definitions as described on the Glossary of Structural Kinesiology & Weight Training.
> 
> *Basic
> 
> ...



exactly what I was saying, you were saying that compound exercises are exercises that use more than one muscle, that is what I was saying was wrong.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

P-funk said:


> compound movements have to do with JOINTS, and moving more than one joint through a range of motion.  A bench press is an example of this.



I both realize, understand, and agree with that statement, but all I was saying that to achieve a superior functional form while performing a "benching" exercise the use of the stability ball and dumbbells will provide that environment.


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## mike456 (Dec 1, 2006)

"Sure the exercise known as the bench can literally be labeled as a "compound exercise", simply because it works more than one muscle while performing it"

"The closest benching gets to being compound, which it is not..." 

"Compound exercises are exercises that work a combination of two or more muscle groups rolled into one exercise"

these are the statements I was referring to when I said you were wrong, sorry for the confusion


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## P-funk (Dec 1, 2006)

alwaysbelieve1 said:


> I both realize, understand, and agree with that statement, but all I was saying that to achieve a superior functional form while performing a "benching" exercise the use of the stability ball and dumbbells will provide that environment.



everything has some functional implication.........


just because scapular movement is impeded with a BB bench press does not make it an any less effective exercise.  The loading that one can achieve on the exercise is far superior to anything else.

Performing the exericse on a stabillity ball may allow for greater scapular movement and place more emphasis on muscles stabilizing the core, however this drastically reduces the amount of load that one can use (not that that is bad, as there are times when it can work....however, when you are looking for strength, you need to get on the bench).

Also, performing exercises on stability balls or uneven surfaces, can place those who already suffer from lower back pain in a compromising position as it can actually double spinal load because they are unable to properly stabilize themself.


The best exercise for scapular movement would be a push up, since it is a closed kinetic chain movement and you can acually do the top portion of it and properly activate the serratus.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

mike456 said:


> "Sure the exercise known as the bench can literally be labeled as a "compound exercise", simply because it works more than one muscle while performing it"
> 
> "The closest benching gets to being compound, which it is not..."
> 
> ...



Hey no prob!   When taken out of my context I sure can see the confusion.  

I'm glad we got that all cleared up.

Now we can move on to bigger and greater things.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

P-funk said:


> just because scapular movement is impeded with a BB bench press does not make it an any less effective exercise.



Indeed it does since any impediment is not a desired application of a given exercise/ movement in order to achieve superior conditioning- no matter the goal.




P-funk said:


> The best exercise for scapular movement would be a push up, since it is a closed kinetic chain movement and you can acually do the top portion of it and properly activate the serratus.



I couldn't agree more!    I utilize the pushup- in many, many forms, throughout all my program designs.


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## P-funk (Dec 1, 2006)

alwaysbelieve1 said:


> Indeed it does since any impediment is not a desired application of a given exercise/ movement in order to achieve superior conditioning- no matter the goal.




again, it comes back to the loading of the exercise.  there is no way around it.  if you want to load yourself maximally, you are going to have to do it.


If you properly train your scapular stabilizers, you should have no problem bench pressing.  Also, you can do activation work for your scapular stabilizers in between sets.

Also, you can lift and perform the top movement of the bench press and get your serratus involved to an extent.


Also, by your example, people shouldn't do many things...

riding a bike places the person into a hip flexed state and shortens the hip flexors.  these muscles are now impeded......people shouldn't ride bikes....

people who speed skate gain poor posture because they are hunched over in their speed position.....this is impeding posture....people shouldn't speed skate.

Running shortens the TFL and can impede proper patellar tracking....people shouldn't run.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

P-funk said:


> again, it comes back to the loading of the exercise.  there is no way around it.  if you want to load yourself maximally, you are going to have to do it.
> 
> 
> If you properly train your scapular stabilizers, you should have no problem bench pressing.  Also, you can do activation work for your scapular stabilizers in between sets.
> ...



Now you're just splitting hairs.


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## P-funk (Dec 1, 2006)

alwaysbelieve1 said:


> Now you're just splitting hairs.



am I?


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

P-funk said:


> am I?



And it seems you feel threatened by someone else with knowledge treading on "your territory".  I have seen this before.  You write a lot.  That is good, but to be so long winded as to smother others who can offer a great deal of wealth to this community is simply immature.  I will have no part of it and as this conversation goes I am over it.  

We can share in blessing this community- the world, our brothers and sisters- together instead of competing which it clearly seems you are.  I am on the same team as you P.  We are in the business to educate as many as we can by way of fitness & health as well as directly promote success within people's lives.  We are even doing this within the same community since I train out of Chandler as well.  

Let's do this together.  There is no need to debate anymore.  At first my point was misunderstood and now we are on the same page.  Let it be left at that.


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## Witchblade (Dec 1, 2006)

I think he's pointing out the errors in your statements, just like mike and others did.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

Witchblade said:


> I think he's pointing out the errors in your statements, just like mike and others did.



The same can be done of his.  He is not perfect.  I know there are many, many people who look up to him here because he has been a pillar on this board- but again he is not perfect.  I am not making it my duty to declare his faults, but instead promote our strengths together.  We are all very knowledgeable individuals with great experience behind us.  Using that together for good will be the continued success of the fitness community.


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## Witchblade (Dec 1, 2006)

I'm not saying one shouldn't contribute to this society. Any form of contribution is great. But I would say contribution is usually in the form of education. Education usually comes with new knowledge. What P-funk just did is providing you with new knowledge, AKA contribution. I think pointing out the errors in one's statements is one of the best forms of contribution as one tends to learn most from his mistakes. 

If you can point out any flaws in the statements, I'm sure p-funk would love to hear them as he is continuously on the lookout for new information.


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## P-funk (Dec 1, 2006)

alwaysbelieve1 said:


> And it seems you feel threatened by someone else with knowledge treading on "your territory".  I have seen this before.  You write a lot.  That is good, but to be so long winded as to smother others who can offer a great deal of wealth to this community is simply immature.  I will have no part of it and as this conversation goes I am over it.
> 
> We can share in blessing this community- the world, our brothers and sisters- together instead of competing which it clearly seems you are.  I am on the same team as you P.  We are in the business to educate as many as we can by way of fitness & health as well as directly promote success within people's lives.  We are even doing this within the same community since I train out of Chandler as well.
> 
> Let's do this together.  There is no need to debate anymore.  At first my point was misunderstood and now we are on the same page.  Let it be left at that.





I am not threatened at all actually.  Debate is important.  Why shy away from it?  that is how the industry goes and people can gather information from their own conclusions and not from the intreptation of others conclusions.  I don't always agree with CowPimp (another knowledgeable moderator) but, we have a debate and people learn and then they appreciate it (or so I thought).

And, I am not really that long winded and I don't smother anyone......and I actually take a lot of fucking offense to that.....I have been on this forum for about 5-6 years, helping people, for free and giving knowledge....knowledge which others pay me for.  I smother no one and I answer questions that people ask and if they want it even more simplified I help them out further.  

Now back to the debate....I have nothing more to say in this thread actually.  I am really pissed off now that you think I am trying to "smother others"....Are we in this together?  my whole philosophy is based on educating people and giving them as much information so they can draw conclusions and not rely on what someone in a magazine said or what someone on an internet forum said....this is why I give people the science behind it....maybe you see that as long winded....I see that as an opportunity to teach.

here is some science:

Lehman GJ, Gordon T, Langley J, Pemrose P, Tregaskis S., Replacing a Swiss ball for an exercise bench causes variable changes in trunk muscle activity during upper limb strength exercises.,  Dyn Med. 2005 Jun 3;4:6.

BACKGROUND: The addition of Swiss balls to conventional exercise programs has recently been adopted. Swiss balls are an unstable surface which may result in an increased need for force output from trunk muscles to provide adequate spinal stability or balance. The aim of the study was to determine whether the addition of a Swiss ball to upper body strength exercises results in consistent increases in trunk muscle activation levels. METHODS: The myoelectric activity of four trunk muscles was quantified during the performance of upper body resistance exercises while seated on both a stable (exercise bench) and labile (swiss ball) surface. Participants performed the supine chest press, shoulder press, lateral raise, biceps curl and overhead triceps extension. A repeated measures ANOVA with post-hoc Tukey test was used to determine the influence of seated surface type on muscle activity for each muscle. RESULTS & DISCUSSION: There was no statistically significant (p < .05) difference in muscle activity between surface conditions. However, there was large degree of variability across subjects suggesting that some individuals respond differently to surface stability. *These findings suggest that the incorporation of swiss balls instead of an exercise bench into upper body strength training regimes may not be justified based only on the belief that an increase spinal stabilizing musculature activity is inherent.* Biomechanically justified ground based exercises have been researched and should form the basis for spinal stability training as preventative and therapeutic exercise training regimes. CONCLUSION: *Selected trunk muscle activity during certain upper limb strength training exercises is not consistently influenced by the replacement of an exercise bench with a swiss ball.*


Anderson KG, Behm DG., Maintenance of EMG activity and loss of force output with instability., J Strength Cond Res. 2004 Aug;18(3):637-40.


Swiss Balls used as a platform for training provide an unstable environment for force production. The objective of this study was to measure differences in force output and electromyographic (EMG) activity of the pectoralis major, anterior deltoid, triceps, latissimus dorsi, and rectus abdominus for isometric and dynamic contractions under stable and unstable conditions. Ten healthy male subjects performed a chest press while supported on a bench or a ball. Unstable isometric maximum force output was 59.6% less than under stable conditions. However, there were no significant differences in overall EMG activity between the stable and unstable protocols. Greater EMG activity was detected with concentric vs. eccentric or isometric contractions. The decreased balance associated with resistance training on an unstable surface may force limb musculature to play a greater role in joint stability. T*he diminished force output suggests that the overload stresses required for strength training necessitate the inclusion of resistance training on stable surfaces.*


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

Witchblade said:


> I'm not saying one shouldn't contribute to this society. Any form of contribution is great. But I would say contribution is usually in the form of education. Education usually comes with new knowledge. What P-funk just did is providing you with new knowledge, AKA contribution. I think pointing out the errors in one's statements is one of the best forms of contribution as one tends to learn most from his mistakes.
> 
> If you can point out any flaws in the statements, I'm sure p-funk would love to hear them as he is continuously on the lookout for new information.



The only mistake in my statement was a miscommunication to the definition of a compound exercise.  I knew what it was.  I conveyed the information I did since we were previously speaking on muscle movements such as curls, etc.  That was my mistake and now I have definitely heard plenty regarding it. 

I thought I clearly redeemed my mistakened statement with a corrected one resulting in the full and complete definition of the said compound movement.

Now that all has indeed been fully clarified I suggest we move on from this confusion and continue having a very, very pleasant afternoon.


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## P-funk (Dec 1, 2006)

alwaysbelieve1 said:


> The same can be done of his.  He is not perfect.  I know there are many, many people who look up to him here because he has been a pillar on this board- but again he is not perfect.  I am not making it my duty to declare his faults, but instead promote our strengths together.  We are all very knowledgeable individuals with great experience behind us.  Using that together for good will be the continued success of the fitness community.



Is it flaws or is it difference of opinion?  Some people in the industy, like Mike Clark, would agree with you more than he would agree with me on this topic.  I like Mike Clark's stuff...he is a good teacher.  But, other guys in the industry will end up siding with me.

Who is right and who is wrong?  Neither.  they just have different methods and different systems.

How the hell do you know what I have been to this board?  You just started here.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

P-funk said:


> Is it flaws or is it difference of opinion?  Some people in the industy, like Mike Clark, would agree with you more than he would agree with me on this topic.  I like Mike Clark's stuff...he is a good teacher.  But, other guys in the industry will end up siding with me.
> 
> Who is right and who is wrong?  Neither.  they just have different methods and different systems.



I agree whole heartedly.   Great conclusion my friend.  I think both of us are right and wrong.  It truly doesn't matter though since there is success in both of our lives.



P-funk said:


> How the hell do you know what I have been to this board?  You just started here.



Indeed, however I have been observing for quite some time.


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## largepkg (Dec 1, 2006)

I will say I like AB1's non confrontational approach. It's quite refreshing to the boards. 

Good to have you here AB1, just be careful what you say. We have some very knowledgeable people here and we're quick to point out what we perceive as errors or mistakes.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

largepkg said:


> I will say I like AB1's non confrontational approach. It's quite refreshing to the boards.
> 
> Good to have you here AB1, just be careful what you say. We have some very knowledgeable people here and we're quick to point out what we perceive as errors or mistakes.



Thank you for the warm welcome and I am definitely aware of what you are saying.  

Thanks again.


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## StanUk (Dec 1, 2006)

alwaysbelieve1 said:


> I never saw that, but hope that is a good thing.
> 
> Oh and one more thing to our curling/benching friend...
> The tricep takes up approximately 60% of the arm when compared to the biceps so if you want big arms- train tris.
> ...



Good advice, its good to have someone new who obviously posses a lot of knowledge in the field of fitness and training such as P Funk, Cowpimp etc on the board, you all offer some great advice and knowledge and I do find I learn a lot from reading your posts 

By the way, Hando from Romper Stomper was Russell Crowe in his early days, hes looking pretty mean lean and ripped in the film so yeh its quite a good thing


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## CowPimp (Dec 1, 2006)

AB1, I found that to be an interesting point regarding the usage of the stability ball for bench press.  Scapular movement is a good thing, but at the same time I tend to go about it different ways.  As P said, pushups are a great way to get your scapular abductors involved without being forced to use such small loads.

Here is my problem with stability balls: their incorporation into programs from a "functional" standpoint is entirely based on their usage in physical therapy.  Studies were done that show the activity of abdominal musculature in patients with defunct motor patterns was greater when using unstable surfaces for certain exercises.  

If you try and take such studies and apply them to healthy people, then the advantages quickly diminish.  You don't need to increase the activity of the abdominal musculature in healthy individuals, you need to integrate their function into compound movements.  Now, I realize that is the suggestion you were making here, but don't compound lifts, particularly structural lifts, result in the same thing?  

I wonder if the increased need for reactivity and stabilization is necessarily better than increased loading all the time?  Isn't muscular strength an important component of physical fitness?  Furthermore, isn't it possible that the increased loading could make up for the more rigid surface from which you base your movements?  I don't know for sure, but I can tell you right now that someone who has done nothing but bench press on a stability ball will be not be anywhere near their full strength potential when it comes to the classic bench press exercise.  However, someone who has been doing flat benching that is capable of using much greater loads could probably hop on a stability ball and use a pretty significant load there too.

Furthermore, stability balls need to be used as a progression.  I always tout this.  If I see another jackass sit someone down on a stability ball and have them do overhead presses their first session I'm going to cry.  Does the person have the prerequisite shoulder stability that they can do this properly on a stable surface that you need to be making thing more difficult?  Does the person have some base level of intermuscular coordination?  Etc.

Rant over.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

CowPimp said:


> Here is my problem with stability balls: their incorporation into programs from a "functional" standpoint is entirely based on their usage in physical therapy.  Studies were done that show the activity of abdominal musculature in patients with defunct motor patterns was greater when using unstable surfaces for certain exercises.



Agreed and no argument there. 



CowPimp said:


> If you try and take such studies and apply them to healthy people, then the advantages quickly diminish.  You don't need to increase the activity of the abdominal musculature in healthy individuals, you need to integrate their function into compound movements.



Diminished, however still needed.  No one is completely stable and there is always room to grow.  The definition of "healthy" can be very gray.  I use the SBs with many of my clients, as well as myself, as an integration into their programs.[/QUOTE] 



CowPimp said:


> Now, I realize that is the suggestion you were making here, but don't compound lifts, particularly structural lifts, result in the same thing?



Compound lifts do utilize the core for stability and support.  I believe the abdominals are firing more in this environment than that of isolation of them alone.  



CowPimp said:


> I wonder if the increased need for reactivity and stabilization is necessarily better than increased loading all the time?



I am one who thinks so.  I would much rather perform a given exercise without very little to no impingement and impedance so that my body will move in such as way that nature intended- only with added weight in order to strengthen me in that movement. 



CowPimp said:


> Isn't muscular strength an important component of physical fitness?



Indeed it is. I believe in achieving all of the following as part of an individual's goal to overall fitness and well-being(an often underrated goal).  

*GENERAL PHYSICAL SKILLS

If your goal is optimum physical competence then all the general physical skills must be considered:

1. Cardiovascular/respiratory endurance - The ability of body systems to gather, process, and deliver oxygen.

2. Stamina - The ability of body systems
to process, deliver, store, and utilize energy.

3. Strength - The ability of a muscular unit, or combination of muscular units, to apply force.

4. Flexibility - the ability to maximize the range of motion at a given joint.

5. Power - The ability of a muscular unit, or combination of muscular units, to apply maximum force in minimum time.

6. Speed - The ability to minimize the time cycle of a repeated movement.

7. Coordination - The ability to combine several distinct movement patterns into a singular distinct movement.

8. Agility - The ability to minimize transition time from one movement pattern to another.

9. Balance - The ability to control the placement of the bodies center of gravity in relation to its support base.

10. Accuracy - The ability to control movement in a given direction or at a given intensity.*
_
(Ed. - Thanks to Jim Crawley and Bruce Evans of Dynamax)_ 



CowPimp said:


> Furthermore, isn't it possible that the increased loading could make up for the more rigid surface from which you base your movements?



Personally I find it more challenging to balance and stabilize my load rather than stack it up on an already stable environment.



CowPimp said:


> I don't know for sure, but I can tell you right now that someone who has done nothing but bench press on a stability ball will be not be anywhere near their full strength potential when it comes to the classic bench press exercise.  However, someone who has been doing flat benching that is capable of using much greater loads could probably hop on a stability ball and use a pretty significant load there too.



I highly disagree here out of experience.  Try DB pressing the equivalent to that of what you flat bench press on a SB tomorrow- even if it's only a few reps for test purposes. 

The Setup: Lie supinated on the SB with your scapular on top and lumbar spine off the ball.  Keep your hips elevated as if you were lying on a bench by contracting your glutes for lumbar support.  Keep your core active as you position your feet so that your knee is at a 90degree angle and feet are touching.  Your neck will take much of your head weight or you can position yourself so that it lies on the ball as well.

The Movement: Now just as you DB bench perform the same movement beginning about 3 inches from your side chest and raising on a slight angle so that the finish is with your arms fully extended and the DBs over your mouth level.  Do not touch the DBs, but do keep them close- about 2-3 inches from touching at the top/ extended position(finish position).  Return the starting position and repeat.

While performing these movements please remember to keep your hips up, glutes and core active as well as the feet touching.  Perform a weight where you can remain in perfect form for your chosen rep amount.



CowPimp said:


> Furthermore, stability balls need to be used as a progression.  I always tout this.  If I see another jackass sit someone down on a stability ball and have them do overhead presses their first session I'm going to cry.  Does the person have the prerequisite shoulder stability that they can do this properly on a stable surface that you need to be making thing more difficult?  Does the person have some base level of intermuscular coordination?  Etc.



I usually assess my clients prior to using SBs with them; however I will use them in the beginning sessions as well as with veteran clients who have been with me for years.

I do not use them exclusively.  That would be ridiculous.  In fitness I found that as long as you have perfect form on what you do and train appropriately- meaning not overtraining- there is no right or wrong program design.  Please don't mistake that for me saying that any program works and/or could work.  I wouldn't perform a hypothetical Squat program of twice a day everyday for 2 weeks.  I am speaking very raw here hoping everyone's common sense for proper program design kicks in. 

I hope that my rant has answered your rant.  This has been fun.  

Ask me anything- anytime.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 1, 2006)

StanUk said:


> Good advice, its good to have someone new who obviously posses a lot of knowledge in the field of fitness and training such as P Funk, Cowpimp etc on the board, you all offer some great advice and knowledge and I do find I learn a lot from reading your posts



Thank you very much.  



StanUk said:


> By the way, Hando from Romper Stomper was Russell Crowe in his early days, hes looking pretty mean lean and ripped in the film so yeh its quite a good thing



I thought he looked familiar when I Googled it.


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## CowPimp (Dec 2, 2006)

AB1, I'm not saying that you could DB bench press the same amount of weight on a stable and unstable surface.  What I'm saying is that I think someone who has benched exclusively on a bench would still put up good number on a stability ball, but it would definitely be less than what they bench normally.  However, looking at the reverse situation, I would say that someone who has benched exclusively on a stability ball wouldn't put up much greater numbers on a regular bench press because they have limited their strength by training on nothing but unstable surfaces.

I made this statement because it sounded like you were totally poo-pooing the regular bench press in favor of training on a stability ball.  I see this is not the case, and it sounds like you use a variety of movements instead.

Another thought: if you are really looking to use the body as intended, hence your desire to free scapular motion, then why not use a standing pressing movement with cable equipment or bands?  I can't remember the last time I had to press something while laying on my back.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 2, 2006)

CowPimp said:


> Another thought: if you are really looking to use the body as intended, hence your desire to free scapular motion, then why not use a standing pressing movement with cable equipment or bands?  I can't remember the last time I had to press something while laying on my back.



That a boy!  Now you're thinkin'!!!  

This is exactly what I do moreover than in supine positions.  I train my clients in many different positions, but mostly standing up and then prone.  I work different angles while standing and incorporate the legs and feet as well.  I take them off balance as we use slideboards, wobble-boards, BOSUs, one-legged standing, etc.  I definitely train them on two feet, but I integrate a lot.  

Not only is it better for my client's body that way so that it is very well rounded mechanically, but it is also much more fun.


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## BringDaBlitz94 (Dec 2, 2006)

how often shuld i bench?? and how long duz it take for ur arms to get bigger??


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 2, 2006)

BringDaBlitz94 said:


> how often shuld i bench?? and how long duz it take for ur arms to get bigger??



The first question will get mixed reviews.  My opinion is this:  It depends on your program and what you are trying to achieve.  If you are working for muscle hypertrophy and size bearing results- once a week of intense bench training is enough.  If you cannot get your intensity high then you can perform 2, but be careful not to over train.  It can, often times, be easy to do that.  

Remember the rule:  Less Is More.  That means- keep the intensity high so you don't have to do a lot of reps, set, days, etc.

As for your second question I would have to say that it definitely depends on the individual.  Factors include:  Genetics, diet, training style, recovery time, etc.  They all add up and how you use them is up to you- it can be for or against your advantage.


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## BringDaBlitz94 (Dec 2, 2006)

wats a good rep range and i if i do these reps wit high weights how lon ga break shuld i take in between....nd wat r some other good exercises that build muscles nd mass??


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 2, 2006)

BringDaBlitz94 said:


> wats a good rep range and i if i do these reps wit high weights how lon ga break shuld i take in between....nd wat r some other good exercises that build muscles nd mass??



Diet builds mass- bottom line.


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## P-funk (Dec 2, 2006)

education also builds mass.....stop asking the same question(s) and start reading the answers.


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## alwaysbelieve1 (Dec 2, 2006)

P-funk said:


> education also builds mass.....stop asking the same question(s) and start reading the answers.


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## Witchblade (Dec 2, 2006)

P-funk said:


> education also builds mass.....stop asking the same question(s) and start reading the answers.


He means you should actually start listening to us and read the damn stickies.


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