# workout a muscle every 72 hours?



## o-dub (Oct 27, 2004)

since your muscles fully recover within 72 hours is it ok to train a muscle every 72 hours?


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## Yanick (Oct 27, 2004)

1. you can't put a flat figure on how long it takes a muscle to fully recover.

2. there is more to recovery than just the muscles.

3. high(er) frequency routines work as long as you tweak the other factors (most important being volume and intensity).


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## sabre81 (Oct 27, 2004)

ehh, i guess it depends on the person, however, i recover pretty fast and i know i would be overtraining a muscle if i hit it directly every 3 days.


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## IONOR (Oct 28, 2004)

Diffrent muscles recover at diffrent speeds. Muscle groups that are made up of mostly type 1a fibers (eg calfs and abs) tend to recover a lot faster than others.Thats why we can train these groups more than once a week (every 72 hours would be fine). To train other muscle groups every 72 hours would be overtrainning, unless we cut down on volume as well as intensity for each workout.Which would be contraproductive towards our muscle building goals.As higher volume workouts have been proven to release higher growth hormone which is a far more anabolic response than you get from trainning your muscle groups 72 hours apart . Thus trainning a muscle group once a week with more volume ,shocking methods and intensity is more optimal towards gains.


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## Tha Don (Oct 28, 2004)

IONOR said:
			
		

> Diffrent muscles recover at diffrent speeds. Muscle groups that are made up of mostly type 1a fibers (eg calfs and abs) tend to recover a lot faster than others.Thats why we can train these groups more than once a week (every 72 hours would be fine). To train other muscle groups every 72 hours would be overtrainning, unless we cut down on volume as well as intensity for each workout.Which would be contraproductive towards our muscle building goals.As higher volume workouts have been proven to release higher growth hormone which is a far more anabolic response than you get from trainning your muscle groups 72 hours apart . Thus trainning a muscle group once a week with more volume ,shocking methods and intensity is more optimal towards gains.



what are your views on this..?

http://www.metacel.com/MaxGrow8wk.pdf

these guys reckon you can train shoulders and arms more frequently too, i dunno about it, wouldn't mind an extra biceps workout each week    but i don't think my triceps could handle an extra 1, they always seem to be aching for days and i couldn't see my bench making progress if my tris were still K.O.'ed


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## IONOR (Oct 28, 2004)

young d said:
			
		

> what are your views on this..?
> 
> http://www.metacel.com/MaxGrow8wk.pdf
> 
> these guys reckon you can train shoulders and arms more frequently too, i dunno about it, wouldn't mind an extra biceps workout each week  but i don't think my triceps could handle an extra 1, they always seem to be aching for days and i couldn't see my bench making progress if my tris were still K.O.'ed


Sorry mate I cant get that link to work.
 However the biceps and shoulders are made up of between 40 and 45 per cent slow twitch muscle fibers which means these muscles would recover pretty quickly as well (but not as rapidly as calfs and abs). (Triceps are roughly 30 per cent slow twitch and wouldnt recoever as quick) I think 72 hours apart would be pushing it unless you cut volume and intensity which could be counterproductive (as I posted above). Remeber your  front delts and triceps get also get hit pretty hard during benching and and rear delts during as do biceps back work (eg rows) and as we all know muscles rest during recovery. You could hit biceps after back again with a few sets. However unless you didnt spend as much time hitting your mucle groups I wouldnt advice hitting the same muscle group twice a week.


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## Tha Don (Oct 28, 2004)

the concept of that article is that different muscle groups recover at different rates

because your arms recover 3 times faster than your legs... why work them both once a week at the same rate? if you train your arms only once a week they will not grow as fast as they should be, therefore that program recommends training shoulders and arms 3 times a week, chest and back 1-2 times a week and legs once

i'm not sayin i'd do that! but would it be worth trying to add in an extra arms workout and seeing what happens? to test if that theory works?

do you know the recovery rates of all the muscles?

i might try adding in an extra chest/bis (lagging parts) workout at the weekend when i start creatine in a couple of weeks (creatine should make my muscles recover even quicker - so it would make sense to try it when i'm on creatine)

peace


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## IONOR (Oct 28, 2004)

young d said:
			
		

> the concept of that article is that different muscle groups recover at different rates
> 
> because your arms recover 3 times faster than your legs... why work them both once a week at the same rate? if you train your arms only once a week they will not grow as fast as they should be, therefore that program recommends training shoulders and arms 3 times a week, chest and back 1-2 times a week and legs once
> 
> ...


Yeah I get where your coming from.Fair enough however does the programme  say how much volume and what (if any) shocking techniques are used? These are both major factors in determing how fast a muscle group will recover.As ell as being a prime factor in determing muscle fiber damage and growth,you will get from your workout.Everyone recovers at diffrent rates at that. (Remember you grow when your out of the gym not when your working out)You could try this prinncable (I wouldnt recommend it however) I wouldnt train a mucle group directly more than twice a week.(I sometimes have a seprate day for chest/back then 4 days later do arms.)This would be a sure fire way to make sure you A) aren't hitting the muscle group hard enough at any one of these workouts B) Severly overtrain.
Like I said in the post above your muscles get a good workout working as secondary (assisting) muscles in most workouts (eg rear delts biceps/back triceps front delts/chest).
However diffrent people respond to diffrent programmes diffrently.I prefer higher volume with plenty of sets and shocking techniques.I wouldnt recommend a programme where your hiitting most of your bodyparts 2 or 3 tmes a week but the only way to find out if this works for you is try it and see how it goes.  
I could tell you the muscle ratios of each muscle group . However this will not tell you how fast or how long you should wait in between hitting your muscle groups just the fast twitch/slow twitch ratio (like I stated slow twitch recover faster) 
Creatine does help in a number of ways (incereasing ATP stores,forcing nutrients into your muscles as well as lactic acid buffering) and will help you recover quicker,but it is not a full proof insurance against overtrainning.


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## CowPimp (Oct 28, 2004)

sabre81 said:
			
		

> ehh, i guess it depends on the person, however, i recover pretty fast and i know i would be overtraining a muscle if i hit it directly every 3 days.



Not if you simulatenously reduced the volume of each workout.  If you simply did your split routine, but doubled the number of sets by adding a second day for that muscle each week, then certainly overtraining is a possibility.


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## DOMS (Oct 28, 2004)

young d said:
			
		

> the concept of that article is that different muscle groups recover at different rates



That's what I heard as well.




			
				young d said:
			
		

> because your arms recover 3 times faster than your legs



I think it depends are which leg muscles.  The calves (along with the abs) are the muscles that recover the fastest.  Which is why they should be worked much more often than any other muscles.

As for some muscles have a certain amount of fast or slow twitch fibers,  it really comes down to genetics and what type of physical work (strength or speed) that they are exposed to.


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## berealjohn (Oct 28, 2004)

to determine fast or slow twitch any muscle group...put 80% on and see how many reps you can do. the bench mark is 6 reps. if you can do more than 6 reps the muscle contains more slow twitch than fast. less than 6 reps it has more slow twitch which mean greater potential for growth & longer recovery time is needed if adequately trained.


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## IONOR (Oct 29, 2004)

berealjohn said:
			
		

> to determine fast or slow twitch any muscle group...put 80% on and see how many reps you can do. the bench mark is 6 reps. if you can do more than 6 reps the muscle contains more slow twitch than fast. less than 6 reps it has more slow twitch which mean greater potential for growth & longer recovery time is needed if adequately trained.


What are you basing this on?
The concept is actually exact opposite.Fast Twitch 2b and 1a fibers are the bigger fibers which have more potential for growth.Slow Twitch 1a fibers are more dominate in abs and calfs as they are smaller fibers and are used more for endurance (mainly in running,walking and other cardio activites) and higher rep schemes. If you are trainning in rep schemes that are 6 reps and under you will tend to fail due to rapid ATP storage failing rather than muscular faliure. Type 2a and type 2b fibers get trained more optimaly in the 6-15 rep range (type 2b fibers have less endurance but are stronger and type 2a fibers get recruited more once you pass the 8 rep range up to the 15 rep range) However the Type 1a fibers are best recruted in anything over 25 reps.


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## Duncans Donuts (Oct 29, 2004)

> What are you basing this on?
> The concept is actually exact opposite.Fast Twitch 2b and 1a fibers are the bigger fibers which have more potential for growth.Slow Twitch 1a fibers are more dominate in abs and calfs as they are smaller fibers and are used more for endurance (mainly in running,walking and other cardio activites) and higher rep schemes. If you are trainning in rep schemes that are 6 reps and under you will tend to fail due to rapid ATP storage failing rather than muscular faliure. Type 2a and type 2b fibers get trained more optimaly in the 6-15 rep range (type 2b fibers have less endurance but are stronger and type 2a fibers get recruited more once you pass the 8 rep range up to the 15 rep range) However the Type 1a fibers are best recruted in anything over 25 reps.



Actually muscles are recruited according to the size principle of muscle fiber recruitment.  If you are doing a weight you can barely eek out 6 reps at, the first muscles to be fatigued will be the so called slow twitch, followed by the "intermediate", and failure will be achieved when the "fast twitch" muscles are used and exhausted.

When you do very high reps (I mean very high - 30 +), your slow twitch fibers which operate through aerobic pathways will recover during the working set and have resupplied enough fuel to continue the muscular contractions.  This is counterproductive because you aren't really doing anaerobic exercise at that point 

I don't understand the point of running out of ATP stores with anything under 6 reps...why again is 8-15 reps not going to do the exact same thing?


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## IONOR (Oct 29, 2004)

Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> Actually muscles are recruited according to the size principle of muscle fiber recruitment. If you are doing a weight you can barely eek out 6 reps at, the first muscles to be fatigued will be the so called slow twitch, followed by the "intermediate", and failure will be achieved when the "fast twitch" muscles are used and exhausted.
> 
> When you do very high reps (I mean very high - 30 +), your slow twitch fibers which operate through aerobic pathways will recover during the working set and have resupplied enough fuel to continue the muscular contractions. This is counterproductive because you aren't really doing anaerobic exercise at that point
> 
> I don't understand the point of running out of ATP stores with anything under 6 reps...why again is 8-15 reps not going to do the exact same thing?


Muscles are not actually rectutied this way the raw essence of building mass is TUT (time under tension) for example tests have compared athletes when they lifted in the 5-15 second range (2-5 reps) compared to when they lifted in the 30-70 second range (8-12 reps). Through contless tests great trainers and bodybuilders (eg Lee Priest) have found out that for optimal size gains a set should last between 30-70 seconds the reason for this is this is the same range (as long as your doing the reps right) as the type 2a and type 2b fibers get stimulated best (8-15 rep range) and if you vary your sets between 30 and 70 seconds throughout your workout you will end up stimulating the most optimal hypertrophy possible.In both of these fibers.
The reasons why this is true is that in a lower second or set range (ie5-15 seconds/2-5reps) your mucles would fail due to a rapid failing of ATP shortage and this rapid shortage of energy just does not allow enough time for your muscles to be stimulated enough to grow.Essentaially the total time that your muscles are required to produce force is shorter in low rep sets than it is in higher rep sets. Simply put a hard set that lasts between 30-70 seconds (8-15 reps) delivers more growth stimulates to the muscle cells than a hard set that lasts below this because in a lower rep (time) scale yopur muscles will fail due to reasons other than muscle fiber fatigue and before a significant growth stimulates has been achieved. This should give you a clearer understanding of why bodybuilders lift in a higer rep range than powerlifters.


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## DOMS (Oct 29, 2004)

Sounds logical.  Could you point me to a good online document that expounds on this?

Thanks.


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## chris mason (Oct 29, 2004)

I won't involve myself in the armchair physiology other than to say that so much of what people have to say about muscle fiber types and its relevance to training is bullshit.

Muscles will recover at different rates as will the muscular and nervous system.  

The answer to the question in this thread is that you will have to find out for yourself.  How quickly both your muscular and nervous systems will recover between sessions is dependent on how hard you are training with respect to your percentage of momentary effort (or _intensity _using the HIT definition of the word) and the volume you employ (total work).  In addition, as already mentioned, some bodyparts will recover more quickly than others and this is unique to the individual.


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## CowPimp (Oct 29, 2004)

IONOR said:
			
		

> Muscles are not actually rectutied this way the raw essence of building mass is TUT (time under tension) for example tests have compared athletes when they lifted in the 5-15 second range (2-5 reps) compared to when they lifted in the 30-70 second range (8-12 reps). Through contless tests great trainers and bodybuilders (eg Lee Priest) have found out that for optimal size gains a set should last between 30-70 seconds the reason for this is this is the same range (as long as your doing the reps right) as the type 2a and type 2b fibers get stimulated best (8-15 rep range) and if you vary your sets between 30 and 70 seconds throughout your workout you will end up stimulating the most optimal hypertrophy possible.In both of these fibers.
> The reasons why this is true is that in a lower second or set range (ie5-15 seconds/2-5reps) your mucles would fail due to a rapid failing of ATP shortage and this rapid shortage of energy just does not allow enough time for your muscles to be stimulated enough to grow.Essentaially the total time that your muscles are required to produce force is shorter in low rep sets than it is in higher rep sets. Simply put a hard set that lasts between 30-70 seconds (8-15 reps) delivers more growth stimulates to the muscle cells than a hard set that lasts below this because in a lower rep (time) scale yopur muscles will fail due to reasons other than muscle fiber fatigue and before a significant growth stimulates has been achieved. This should give you a clearer understanding of why bodybuilders lift in a higer rep range than powerlifters.



Actually, the slowest fibers are always recruited first.  So, slow fibers are recruited whether you are doing endurance exercises or peak strength exercises.  Faster twich fibers, however, are recruited only when you reach a certain intensity level (As in a high percentage of your one rep max).  The more weight you are pushing, the faster the fibers that are used.

There are certainly other factors related to muscular fatigure, but the low level of endurance that faster twitch fibers posses is one of them.

Also, just as important as TUT, I think periods of high intensity training are very important for gaining mass.  This is simply because heavier weights are better at improving neuromuscular efficiency.  That means a greater percentage of the total muscle fibers are stimulated.  Progressive resistance is really the true key to inducing hypertrophy.  The minimum threshold of resistance at which hypertrophy occurs increases with training age.  Therefore, improving your strength is one of the best ways to make sure your gains stay optimal further into your training career.


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## Duncans Donuts (Oct 30, 2004)

> I won't involve myself in the armchair physiology other than to say that so much of what people have to say about muscle fiber types and its relevance to training is bullshit.
> 
> Muscles will recover at different rates as will the muscular and nervous system.



I'm George W. Bush, and I agree with this message


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## IONOR (Oct 30, 2004)

cfs3 said:
			
		

> Sounds logical. Could you point me to a good online document that expounds on this?
> 
> Thanks.


Sorry I don't know how to make an actuall link to a document 
However if you go to ABC Bodybuilding.com and look under the antomy articles they have 3 articles which talk in depth about muscle fibers and there recrutiment. There is also an article under In Depth Shocking Principles called Count to 60 seconds and Grow Man Grow. (Which is where I took the infromation from my above post from) Which talks in depth about the TUT method. 
ENJOY !!


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## chris mason (Oct 30, 2004)

Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> I'm George W. Bush, and I agree with this message


Thank you Mr. President!

Oh, and you were right about the fact that slow twitch fibers will be recruited first.


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