# High Volume Workouts



## swordfish (Oct 27, 2005)

Quite a few people perform high volume workouts yet don't see much results( there are some that do well) with their training. What's wrong with high volume you ask? There's nothing wrong with it, except for the fact that most cannot handle it (Arnold was an extreme exception and could do a lot of volume) and IMO, MANY CAN GAIN MUCH MORE MUSCLE WITH LOWER VOLUME AND HIGHER INTENSITY. This is not to say that high volume doesn't work, but many people do way too much and try to target all the different heads and such, but yet they weigh 150 lbs and are looking to gain the most mass possible.

I heard one member saying that as a basic guideline this is the total volume for each muscle group-

legs- 15+ sets
shoulders-12-15 sets
back-12-14 sets
biceps-9-12 sets
triceps-9-12 sets
back-15+ sets
calves-8-10 sets
chest-10-12 sets

WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING, that is way too much for the average person, and especially if those are all working sets. 

I have a challenge for those that thrive on high volume workouts, TRY A LOWER VOLUME APPROACH WITH HEAVY BASIC MOVEMENTS for a few months and keep a good diet and get sufficient sleep(7-8 hours), tell me how much you gained. I think you will be surpised.

For those that are always looking for a better routine and a 'mass gain program' (most don't realize it comes from diet), try this out for size. This emphasizes very basic compound lifts that will be sure to pack the mass on.

4 day split( you can switch the days if it is more convenient

Monday- Legs
-back barbell squat- 3x6-8
-hack squat- 3x8-10
-Stiff legged deadlift- 3x10
-calf raise- 4x10-15

Tuesday- Chest/Tris
-Flat Barbell Bench Press- 3x8-10
-Incline Barbell Bench Press- 3x6-8
-Close grip bench- 3x8-10
- skull crushers-2x8

wednesday- Light cardio or take the day off

Thursday- Shoulders/ abs
-Seated Barbell Press- 3x8-10
-upright rows OR side raises- 3x8-10
-crunches or hanging leg raises- 2x15-20
-side crunches- 2x20

Friday- Back/Bi's
-deadlifts- 3x5
-bent over rows- 3x6-8
-barbell curl- 3x8-10
-preacher db curl- 2x10-12

Saturday- Light cardio or take the day off 
Sunday- Light cardio or take the day off


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## GFR (Oct 27, 2005)

legs- 15+ sets
shoulders-12-15 sets
back-12-14 sets
biceps-9-12 sets
triceps-9-12 sets
back-15+ sets
calves-8-10 sets
chest-10-12 sets


some look excessive some do not


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## swordfish (Oct 27, 2005)

But this is for working sets. say for instance bent over rows, this is your workout

bar x 15
135x 8
185x 8
225x 6
275x 10

3 of those are warm-up sets. the last two are working sets and you can even say that the 225 sort of a warm-up too. IMO I think that 2 or 3 WORKING ALL OUT sets is enough per exercise.


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## PreMier (Oct 27, 2005)

I use high volume.  For instance my leg day is:
Squats 6-9x8
SLDL 6-9x4
Standing calves 15-30x4
Seated Calves 15x30x4


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## CowPimp (Oct 27, 2005)

In general I agree, although I don't consider that workout you listed low volume except for the back workout, and almost the leg workout.  It's a moderate volume routine I would say.  But I digress, I still feel people should give lower volume and higher intensity a shot if they never have.


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## benverner (Oct 28, 2005)

Take steroids and that volume is fine...for example Ahnold and some of the folks on this board.  

Less volume, more rest works for 85% of normal folks not on drugs.


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## Tough Old Man (Oct 28, 2005)

It took me about a year to figure that at my age I could no longer use high volume to gain size and or strength. This past year taught me a lesson. I must have destroyed my CNS as I was so overtrained that my strength went down almost 50%. I have now lowered the volume and my size and strength is starting to come back.


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## P-funk (Oct 28, 2005)

the thing to remeber is no one way is the best way!

If you can recover from a high volume workout and make gains the why can't it work for you.  It may not work for ever.  it may only work for a short time and then you may have to down size you program for a bit before jumping back up.  The biggest problem with high volume workouts is that you can't train with a high intensity when using hat much volume.  However, it may improve your work capacity and endurance to maintain a high amount of exercise per session.  A low intensity volume allows you to use more intensity during your workout.  Using the heavier loads will help to increase your strength in the given rep ranges that you are working.

So really the programs are different and are both focusing on different types of things.  The main thing is that both are taxing on the system and you need to make sure you are recovering after the workouts.


I used to train with really really high volume when I trained body parts since I was training everythign once a week.  It worked great.  Then I swtiched my program to more of a powerlifter program and I had to lower he volume in order to maintain my upper/lower split.  Once I went to olympic lifting I was training at realy high loads (sometime 40+ sets for lower body per session 3 times a week).  All of them were effecient in helping me reach my goals at the given time.


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## Squaggleboggin (Oct 28, 2005)

I usually suggest 3x3 warm up sets followed by 3x2 working sets for strength gains (assuming the athlete is not a beginner and is already used to the stresses of lifting). This allows for short, intense workouts with a fair amount of frequency. I usually also do 3x10 sets of speed work on days I don't do heavy work. This helps to speed up my recovery and also develop speed. Even though I'm technically workint out six days a week, it's not that tough on my CNS because three of those workouts are for active recovery and require very little effort. I would also suggest starting every exercise from the bottom for strength gains (bottom squats, bottom benches). This will help tremendously in developing real power because you have to overcome the bar's inertia from the bottom rather than use your muscles' elastic response to help get the weight back up.


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## CowPimp (Oct 28, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> the thing to remeber is no one way is the best way!
> 
> If you can recover from a high volume workout and make gains the why can't it work for you.  It may not work for ever.  it may only work for a short time and then you may have to down size you program for a bit before jumping back up.  The biggest problem with high volume workouts is that you can't train with a high intensity when using hat much volume.  However, it may improve your work capacity and endurance to maintain a high amount of exercise per session.  A low intensity volume allows you to use more intensity during your workout.  Using the heavier loads will help to increase your strength in the given rep ranges that you are working.
> 
> ...



Well said.  I'm working my way up in volume again because I have been doing low volume high intensity routines for too long.  Now my strength endurance sucks.  Not to mention, although high intensity workouts are great for strength, many strength gurus believe that increasing work capacity is also an important component of continually getting stronger.


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## P-funk (Oct 28, 2005)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Well said.  I'm working my way up in volume again because I have been doing low volume high intensity routines for too long.  Now my strength endurance sucks.  Not to mention, although high intensity workouts are great for strength, many strength gurus believe that increasing work capacity is also an important component of continually getting stronger.



yes, work capacity is important!!  I had that one journal were I did the density training and was logging huge huge amounts of sets after my intensity lifts.  It worked great for my conditioning.....

If you aren't in shape you wont be able to lift heavy (at least in a contest setting when you need to be able to hit 3 max attepmts at each lift and sometimes follow yourself on only 2min. rest).


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## lnvanry (Oct 28, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> If you can recover from a high volume workout and make gains the why can't it work for you..


 exactly....

 for me:
 -chest 16sets (8-20reps)  I go reps past failure every time
 -back 20sets (8-20reps) 2 past fail
 -bi/tri 12 sets each (8-12) 2 past fail
 -quads 10 sets (8-20) hams 6 sets (8-12) to failure on     both
 -shoulder 9sets (6-12 reps) to failure traps 6 sets (8-20)  to failure


 I am currently on and I have made incredible gains.....15lbs in 19days

 Whenever I'm on I go high volume and past failure every set.


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## CowPimp (Oct 28, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> yes, work capacity is important!!  I had that one journal were I did the density training and was logging huge huge amounts of sets after my intensity lifts.  It worked great for my conditioning.....



I remember.  I bet at the time you could outlast any cardio bunny in existence.  Those workouts would've made you average man puke though.  I remember shit like unilateral leg pressing without rest between legs.  Death I tell you.  Death!




> If you aren't in shape you wont be able to lift heavy (at least in a contest setting when you need to be able to hit 3 max attepmts at each lift and sometimes follow yourself on only 2min. rest).



Yeah, or if you find a wait that makes the concentric portion of the lift take 10 seconds to complete.  You don't want to be stopped just short of lockout because your work capacity is that of an obese grandmother on painkillers.


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## GFR (Oct 28, 2005)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> exactly....
> 
> for me:
> -chest *16sets* (8-20reps)  I* go reps past failure every time*
> -back *20sets* (8-20reps) 2 past fail


Holy shit Batman


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## CowPimp (Oct 28, 2005)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> exactly....
> 
> for me:
> -chest 16sets (8-20reps)  I go reps past failure every time
> ...



Hey, if it's working for you great.  Just make sure to give yourself a phase of lower intensity training following this.  Unless you're blessed with amazing resistance to overtraining, your central nervous system is going to shit all over itself going past failure all the time at that volume, and in short order.


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## lnvanry (Oct 28, 2005)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Unless you're blessed with amazing resistance to overtraining, your central nervous system is going to shit all over itself going past failure all the time at that volume, and in short order.


 I definitely will tone things down after my cycle, but what do you mean by my central nervous system shutting down.


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## CowPimp (Oct 28, 2005)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> I definitely will tone things down after my cycle, but what do you mean by my central nervous system shutting down.



If you overtrain your central nervous system, all kinds of negative things can result.  Your sleep patterns can get screwed up, you can detrain, your hormone levels can be altered, etc.


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## lnvanry (Oct 28, 2005)

I'm not worried about the hormones...I get a steady dose of test every week (500mg)

 Now that you mention it, my sleeping pattern is ALL fucked up...somedays i just crash for 10-12 hours.

 I usually wake up half way through my sleep and pound down a shake and go back to bed...I don't know if this is a direct result from past failure training.


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## CowPimp (Oct 28, 2005)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> I'm not worried about the hormones...I get a steady dose of test every week (500mg)
> 
> Now that you mention it, my sleeping pattern is ALL fucked up...somedays i just crash for 10-12 hours.
> 
> I usually wake up half way through my sleep and pound down a shake and go back to bed...I don't know if this is a direct result from past failure training.



Well, there is overreaching and there is overtraining.  Overreaching is the short term version.  Overtraining takes overreaching for extended periods of time before it takes effect.  However, overreaching can be beneficial if you allow yourself time to recuperate before you reach a state of overtraining.

Why are you getting supplemental testosterone?  Also, is this how your sleeping habits have always been, or is it fairly recent?


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## Tough Old Man (Oct 28, 2005)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> If you overtrain your central nervous system, all kinds of negative things can result. Your sleep patterns can get screwed up, you can detrain, your hormone levels can be altered, etc.


As sorry as this sounds, my incline bench last year was 390 lbs for one rep. 2 months ago I had a hard time repping 160 lbs once. Now remember I also tore a left rotator cuff. I'm still having problems with it but not as bad. I babied the left cuff so much that it started effecting my right cuff. i'm working through this and my strength is coming back. 
Tell you I don't know what I did but every week my bench went down 20-30 lbs. It was crazy. I was training 6 days a week and sometimes twice a day doing 30-38 sets a day. I also cutted from 280 lbs down to 217 lbs and tore that cuff. Man I was in trouble here. 
Two months later after going to dogg crapp training my bench is still in the shitter but going up a min of 10 lbs a week. Today was incline and as bad asd it sounds i felt pretty good getting 205 lbs 13 times. Far better then 160 lbs one time 7 weeks ago. Figure I'll be back up over 300 on the incline by the end of the year. 

Tough.


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## Tough Old Man (Oct 31, 2005)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> As sorry as this sounds, my incline bench last year was 390 lbs for one rep. 2 months ago I had a hard time repping 160 lbs once. Now remember I also tore a left rotator cuff. I'm still having problems with it but not as bad. I babied the left cuff so much that it started effecting my right cuff. i'm working through this and my strength is coming back.
> Tell you I don't know what I did but every week my bench went down 20-30 lbs. It was crazy. I was training 6 days a week and sometimes twice a day doing 30-38 sets a day. I also cutted from 280 lbs down to 217 lbs and tore that cuff. Man I was in trouble here.
> Two months later after going to dogg crapp training my bench is still in the shitter but going up a min of 10 lbs a week. Today was incline and as bad asd it sounds i felt pretty good getting 205 lbs 13 times. Far better then 160 lbs one time 7 weeks ago. Figure I'll be back up over 300 on the incline by the end of the year.
> 
> Tough.


Update for me. This next two weeks is cruising weeks for me. I felt pretty good and decided to incl again today. Well 220 lbs for 12 reps. So even though I'm fighting the cuff problems, strength is going up thank God. 


Tough


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## DOMS (Oct 31, 2005)

Take it slow TOM.  Give you connective tissue the time to build up again, or it's back to tears-ville for you.


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## BigDyl (Oct 31, 2005)

Hey, Cow, do you ever plan on going on a cycle of test or something?


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## CowPimp (Oct 31, 2005)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> Hey, Cow, do you ever plan on going on a cycle of test or something?



Never, for any reason.


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## soxmuscle (Oct 31, 2005)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Never, for any reason.


  what is your reasons?

 EDIT:  what *is* your reasons?


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## lnvanry (Oct 31, 2005)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> testosterone? Also, is this how your sleeping habits have always been, or is it fairly recent?


obviously I'm getting my test from my gear...600mg/wk

my sleeping habit are really fucked up dude.  I always get 8-10 hours, but its like I'm on a 28hr day or something.  Right now I only work on the weekends and my classes are in the middle of the day, so it doesn't effect my life much


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## CowPimp (Nov 1, 2005)

soxmuscle said:
			
		

> what is your reasons?
> 
> EDIT:  what *is* your reasons?



Because I don't want to play with my hormones, and I want my gains to be due to my hard work.


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