# Deputy Tasers woman, 72, during traffic stop



## min0 lee (Jun 10, 2009)

Deputy Tasers woman, 72, during traffic stop - Yahoo! News
By JIM VERTUNO, Associated Press Writer

AUSTIN, Texas – Cursing and belligerent, the great-grandmother refused to sign her speeding ticket, got out of her truck and dared a deputy to shock her with a Taser.

So he did.

Video released by a Travis County Constable's Office shows 72-year-old Kathryn Winkfein hitting the ground and moaning while the shocks jolted through her body after the May 11 confrontation with Travis County Sheriff's Deputy Chris Bieze.

Winkfein was stopped for driving 60 mph in a 45-mph zone just west of Austin. A dashboard camera in the deputy's car shows the 4-foot-11 Winkfein refusing to sign her speeding ticket, getting out of her white pickup truck and cursing at the deputy constable.

Bieze then pushes her to get her away from traffic.
"You're gonna shove a 72-year-old woman," Winkfein says angrily, standing inches from the deputy.

"If you don't step back, you're going to get Tased," Bieze says.
"Go ahead, Tase me," Winkfein says. "I dare you."

The video shows Bieze using the Taser and Winkfein hitting the ground and moaning in pain.
"Put your hands behind your back or you're going to be Tased again," Bieze yells, and then hits her with another jolt.

Winkfein was eventually charged with resisting arrest, a misdemeanor punishable by up to a year in jail and fines up to $4,000.
A telephone message left with Constable Sgt. Maj. Gary Griffin of the constable's office was not immediately returned Wednesday. Telephone calls to a number listed for Kathryn Winkfein in Marble Falls, about 50 miles west of Austin, went unanswered.

Griffin has defended Bieze's actions and that Winkfein was belligerent and difficult to handle.

But Travis County Sheriff Greg Hamilton, whose office does not oversee the constables, issued a statement Wednesday saying:
"I do not personally agree with the actions of the deputy constable as they are shown in the video. When I look at the video I am in awe of what happened."


Yahoo! <----With shocking video


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## sshamm_bone_1 (Jun 10, 2009)

I saw this on Attack of the Show today. Its pretty funny stuff, but for the un-nessary amount of force needed to control an old lady......i'm at a loss of words.


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## min0 lee (Jun 10, 2009)

I wonder what affect a taser would have on a person who uses a pace maker.


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## Arnold (Jun 10, 2009)

sshamm_bone_1 said:


> I saw this on Attack of the Show today. Its pretty funny stuff, but for the un-nessary amount of force needed to control an old lady......i'm at a loss of words.



Its pretty funny stuff? 

No its not funny at all, what if that was your mother or grandmother? That cop should be fired, period.


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## min0 lee (Jun 10, 2009)

The cop handled this wrong, instead of shoving her he could have just tried leading her to safety....and tasing a lady that age...wrong.

But this would have never happened if she complied with the officer.


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## sshamm_bone_1 (Jun 10, 2009)

I guess I should clarify what I ment....the lady acting all crazy was funny (even though she had NO right to act that way).  But I was very shocked at the slight over use of force.   I would not agree with the cop getting fired however.  You never know what kind of past situation the officer may have been in and the consequences for not using force.  Plus she did ask for it.


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## maniclion (Jun 10, 2009)

Slight over use of force are you nuts?  He yells at her like she's a violent felon and then manhandles her and then tases a feeble hearted old woman......absolutely inhuman and if you say you think it was ok you are just as evil........honestly think about it she is tiny as fuck, her muscles have deteriorated from age, her bones are fragile, her skin is paper thin, and her heart is lucky it took a zap from the taser.   She might have an attitude but thats it....she poses no threat to the officer....fucking despicable


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## Hoglander (Jun 10, 2009)

"...her bones are fragile...." 

The results of subduing her are temporary in this case.


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## Arnold (Jun 10, 2009)

maniclion said:


> Slight over use of force are you nuts?  He yells at her like she's a violent felon and then manhandles her and then tases a feeble hearted old woman......absolutely inhuman and if you say you think it was ok you are just as evil........honestly think about it she is tiny as fuck, her muscles have deteriorated from age, her bones are fragile, her skin is paper thin, and her heart is lucky it took a zap from the taser.   She might have an attitude but thats it....she poses no threat to the officer....fucking despicable



exactly, which is why I say he should be fired, he has no business being a cop.


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## maniclion (Jun 10, 2009)

Hoglander said:


> "...her bones are fragile...."
> 
> The results of subduing her are temporary in this case.


If you are claiming he could have broken her wrist or arm by trying to hold her you are looking past the risks of stopping her heart or her breaking her hip or hitting her head when he tased her.....


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## Hoglander (Jun 10, 2009)

I didn't start the the "what if." 

It worked out.

I guess I'm wondering if you are O.K.


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## sshamm_bone_1 (Jun 10, 2009)

Either way the grandma was really wrong in all of this and is the one who is getting charged for resisting arrest.  Lets face it....after trying to push a cop into traffic shes lucky she wasn't dropped on the ground face first.


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## maxpro2 (Jun 10, 2009)

This should constitute excessive force. Police should not be allowed to use tasers for mere compliance devices when no one's safety is being threatened. Tasers were invented as an alternative to lethal force in situations where lethal force would otherwise be necessary... to use them on a non-compliant but also non-threatening arrestee is absurd. 

Surprisingly, however, in _Buckley v. Haddock_ the use of tasers was permitted in a similar situation where the arrestee was even less threatening than this 72 year old lady.  Check out YouTube - Buckley v. Rackard (TASER video). I don't know how Texas comes out or will come out on the issue, however.

Cop's these days have got to be absolutely retarded to pull this stuff knowing everything they do is recorded. I am not anti-cop at all, but I just hate hearing about such STUPID abuses of power that end up costing taxpayers money due to resulting lawsuits.


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## Little Wing (Jun 10, 2009)

her behavior was atrocious but the cop could have tried a less confrontational approach. been polite to her, acted chivalrous in assisting here to step back where they would both be safe. his people skills are zero but she was no saint either.


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## maxpro2 (Jun 10, 2009)

Little Wing said:


> her behavior was atrocious but the cop could have tried a less confrontational approach. been polite to her, acted chivalrous in assisting here to step back where they would both be safe. his people skills are zero but she was no saint either.



She was no saint, but that level of serious force should not have been used. 

Did she commit a violent crime? Did the officer fear for his life? Was she threatening the safety of others? Was she trying to escape? 

No on all counts. Tasing someone and subjecting them to some of the most extreme pain imaginable because they were a little rowdy when they refused to sign a parking ticket is outrageous. 

If anyone dismisses this violation as "oh she asked for it" or "oh she was no saint either" then they have missed the bigger picture and have basically consented to painful corporal punishment whenever they do something that a cop does not like.


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## Little Wing (Jun 10, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


> She was no saint, but that level of serious force should not have been used.
> 
> Did she commit a violent crime? Did the officer fear for his life? Was she threatening the safety of others? Was she trying to escape?
> 
> ...



did i imply anywhere at all he did the right thing. uh nooooooooo. jeeze.


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## maxpro2 (Jun 10, 2009)

Little Wing said:


> did i imply anywhere at all he did the right thing. uh nooooooooo. jeeze.



You should be ashamed of yourself. This poor lady has suffered enough.

jk


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## Little Wing (Jun 10, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


> You should be ashamed of yourself. This poor lady has suffered enough.
> 
> jk



i'm glad i'm not related to either of them.


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## Mudge (Jun 10, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> The cop handled this wrong, instead of shoving her he could have just tried leading her to safety....and tasing a lady that age...wrong.
> 
> But this would have never happened if she complied with the officer.



I'm with you, at face value I think if he would have strongarmed cuffs on her he might have broken her wrist or arm. Then again, hitting pavement in a taze probably was dangerous too for someone her age. She shouldn't have been so bitchy (part of being old for some people), but he wasn't really spicing up the mood in a good way either.

Cops are supposed to be a couple notches above and know how to keep their cool, and they often keep getting bad press left and right from these incidents.


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## Mudge (Jun 10, 2009)

Little Wing said:


> her behavior was atrocious but the cop could have tried a less confrontational approach. been polite to her, acted chivalrous in assisting here to step back where they would both be safe. his people skills are zero but she was no saint either.



Exactly, neither of them was helping the other out...


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## maniclion (Jun 11, 2009)

She may have broken a law but he broke the laws of human decency, you don't treat the elderly this way.  You think in a nursing home if a patient gets rowdy it would be ok for a nurse to grab the paddles of the defibrillator and zap him/her into compliance? 

I know there was a time when almost everybody would have agreed that the cop could have been more tactful in his approach, but these day's it seems people are more easy to give in to authority so what can I say.....


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## I Are Baboon (Jun 11, 2009)

pwn3d.


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## AKIRA (Jun 11, 2009)

I kind of...expected worse.


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## Mudge (Jun 11, 2009)

maniclion said:


> but these day's it seems people are more easy to give in to authority so what can I say.....



I disagree completely, in the old days nobody would mouth off to a cop. Now every person young and old mouths off (and more) to authority.


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## Chubby (Jun 11, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> Winkfein was stopped for *driving 60 mph in a 45-mph zone* just west of Austin. A dashboard camera in the deputy's car shows the 4-foot-11 Winkfein *refusing to sign her speeding ticket*, getting out of her white pickup truck and* cursing* at the deputy constable.


Sorry, grandma, but you broke the law.  Now you take responsibility for your action and set example for younger generation.


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## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> I wonder what affect a taser would have on a person who uses a pace maker.



its been prooven that it does not have any affect, the electricity does not affect your heart at all.


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## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

sshamm_bone_1 said:


> I saw this on Attack of the Show today. Its pretty funny stuff, but for the un-nessary amount of force needed to control an old lady......i'm at a loss of words.



DUDE, I???m at a loss for words when it comes to your comment, and please don???t take this as an angry statement, I would like to educate you and open your eyes because I was a sheep just like you...............If this was me (and I was in some shity situations) I would at least try to use some verbal skills (that I have gathered in the many times I spent in internal affairs for rudeness complaints) to make the situation better, I would have swallowed my pride and let the lady go without a ticket and have wished her a "better day", thus avoiding the whole conflict but at the same time not really doing my job, see??...................So here is the FACT, the taser avoided the granny from getting twisted into a pretzel possibly slammed on the ground and maybe even punched because she would have resisted the officer when he HAD TO TAKE CONTROL BECAUE ITS HIS JOB...SO the taser caused her a little pain for 5 seconds and she complied right after, but if the cop did not have a taser he would had had to use a lot more physical actions thus probably breaking the granny???s hip in the process and hurting her more...........................


Ill give you an example of many that I have.............   1:30AM in the middle of a infamous park in the city, in the pitch dark. A guy who has a 2nd degree felony warrant for a robbery has just been seen entering the park 5 minutes ago. I find a man matching his description walking towards me. I try to stop and talk to him because i have MORE than enough "reasonable suspicion". He starts walking away and denies talking to me, I tell him three times to stop and tlak to me but he does not and starts explaining why I don???t have the right to do this to him. (keep in mind he is a possible wanted felon and he is trespassing in the park at night). He refuses to comply and I have to do something since I am the cop and I have to be in charge. So it has come to this, I have to be physical, I grab his arm, and he pulls away, so I grab his neck and throw him on the ground. Now there is 250 pounds of muscle and equipment on top of this guy but he does a pushup like a fucking rabbit and throws me off him. 3 whole minutes pass by with me screaming "stop resisting" and him screaming "Police brutality help help", my co workers can't find me because its a huge park and punches, kicks are being exchanged.....The guy is high on meth and he can???t feel that his nose is broken and its bleeding out everywhere....I was clearly beating his ass but I was getting tired as hell...SO, I pull my taser and tase him THREE freaking times before he decides to stop trying to take the wires out of his body and give up.    Now i know grandma was not a big fighter but the cop avoided more injury to her by tasing her than having to go physical in which case INGORANT PEOPLE LIKE YOU would still be "AT A LOSS FOR WORDS".

AGAIN, im sure you are a good "sheep" who means no harm and just tries to survive in this world, but please do tell what you would have done....and keep in mind you have a comfortable chair and plenty of time to come up wiht a response, this cop didn't.


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## Triple Threat (Jun 11, 2009)

I wonder if that lady was soxmuscle's grandmother?


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## tucker01 (Jun 11, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> DUDE, I???m at a loss for words when it comes to your comment, and please don???t take this as an angry statement, I would like to educate you and open your eyes because I was a sheep just like you...............If this was me (and I was in some shity situations) I would at least try to use some verbal skills (that I have gathered in the many times I spent in internal affairs for rudeness complaints) to make the situation better, I would have swallowed my pride and let the lady go without a ticket and have wished her a "better day", thus avoiding the whole conflict but at the same time not really doing my job, see??...................So here is the FACT, the taser avoided the granny from getting twisted into a pretzel possibly slammed on the ground and maybe even punched because she would have resisted the officer when he HAD TO TAKE CONTROL BECAUE ITS HIS JOB...SO the taser caused her a little pain for 5 seconds and she complied right after, but if the cop did not have a taser he would had had to use a lot more physical actions thus probably breaking the granny???s hip in the process and hurting her more...........................
> 
> 
> Ill give you an example of many that I have.............   1:30AM in the middle of a infamous park in the city, in the pitch dark. A guy who has a 2nd degree felony warrant for a robbery has just been seen entering the park 5 minutes ago. I find a man matching his description walking towards me. I try to stop and talk to him because i have MORE than enough "reasonable suspicion". He starts walking away and denies talking to me, I tell him three times to stop and tlak to me but he does not and starts explaining why I don???t have the right to do this to him. (keep in mind he is a possible wanted felon and he is trespassing in the park at night). He refuses to comply and I have to do something since I am the cop and I have to be in charge. So it has come to this, I have to be physical, I grab his arm, and he pulls away, so I grab his neck and throw him on the ground. Now there is 250 pounds of muscle and equipment on top of this guy but he does a pushup like a fucking rabbit and throws me off him. 3 whole minutes pass by with me screaming "stop resisting" and him screaming "Police brutality help help", my co workers can't find me because its a huge park and punches, kicks are being exchanged.....The guy is high on meth and he can???t feel that his nose is broken and its bleeding out everywhere....I was clearly beating his ass but I was getting tired as hell...SO, I pull my taser and tase him THREE freaking times before he decides to stop trying to take the wires out of his body and give up.    Now i know grandma was not a big fighter but the cop avoided more injury to her by tasing her than having to go physical in which case INGORANT PEOPLE LIKE YOU would still be "AT A LOSS FOR WORDS".
> ...



You are kidding me right?  Trying to make a comparison between these two stories?


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## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

IainDaniel said:


> You are kidding me right?  Trying to make a comparison between these two stories?



no im not kidding you, im giving you an example of how tasers prevent more injurie to a person instead of having to go physcial, and If you read who whole post right, you can figure out that this whole thing could have been avoided by just leting the pissy bitch go on her way.....SWALLOW YOUR PRIDE is my policy, that is why you see all those cops at 7-11, because doing your job is gona get you in trouble   

BTW, I tased a 61 year old vietnam vet once because he really wanted to fight and he would have backed down so yes, taser prvent more injurie to a person becasue you dont have to exchange blows and risk injurie....WHO the hell wants to go to work and get in a fight anyway?? the last thing I want to do is tear my bicep when i started seeing some real progress in the gym??


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## tucker01 (Jun 11, 2009)

What reason did he have to taser her?  How was tasing her doing his job?


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## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

IainDaniel said:


> What reason did he have to taser her?  How was tasing her doing his job?



nevermind dude, you are not being reasonable and or rational at this moment....and you are not really reading my comments and wanting to understand so I hope you have a better day...You know, Morning sex really can improve your whole outlook on the day, try it.


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## tucker01 (Jun 11, 2009)

How am I not being rational?

I read your comments, and don't see how they apply to that case.  Was she a cunt, sure.  But the officers job is to diffuse the situation, there was no threat from an 82 year old women.

Questiongirl gives me all the sex I want. thanks.


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## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

IainDaniel said:


> How am I not being rational?
> 
> I read your comments, and don't see how they apply to that case.  Was she a cunt, sure.  But the officers job is to diffuse the situation, there was no threat from an 82 year old women.
> 
> Questiongirl gives me all the sex I want. thanks.



awww....how cute, you just prooved something to me.....sometimes its impossible to defuse a situation because people will start acting like kids and start carrying out personal attacks....read thru the posts, you'll see...i thought you are better than that dude, i really do hope that you have a great day today and maybe even get some from your own personal "questiongirl"......

And you know what, the sad part is that I AM ALMOST completely on your side regarding this issue except a few things and some knowlege only experience can teach you...


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## tucker01 (Jun 11, 2009)

How cute.  You throw an insult to me about my sex life, and don't expect a rebuttal?  Usually I would come across a lot harsher then that.

In none of my posts I came across as confrontational.  I am looking for an explanation.  What knowledge and experience would teach you to think in anyway, that tasing in that situation was necessary?


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## I Are Baboon (Jun 11, 2009)

IainDaniel said:


> Usually I would come across a lot harsher then that.



I'm a little disappointed myself.


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## Little Wing (Jun 11, 2009)

she says 'give me the ticket i'll sign it" several times. he should have done that then n there. end of story.


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## maniclion (Jun 11, 2009)

Mudge said:


> I disagree completely, in the old days nobody would mouth off to a cop. Now every person young and old mouths off (and more) to authority.


No in the old days we didn't have a million amateur journalists running around catching only the worst of humanity....that's all we ever see so we think it's the norm but it's not.  Most people get pulled over and are nervous as hell, they just sit there, we don't see those videos we see the handful of people who lash out....


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## maniclion (Jun 11, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> no im not kidding you, im giving you an example of how tasers prevent more injurie to a person instead of having to go physcial,


I see what you're saying about the tasers usefullness when less-than lethal force needs to be used, but honestly none of what the cop did was working towards diffusing the situation, he started yelling and manhandling her mere seconds after she said "give me the ticket and I'll sign it..."

He let a feeble old woman juice him up, he's a hothead who could end up being a danger to himself, others on the force and the public......


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## maxpro2 (Jun 11, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> its been prooven that it does not have any affect, the electricity does not affect your heart at all.



Those studies are questionable at best. There have been studies done showing that taser usage, coupled with another factor such as heart disease or drug use, resulted in several deaths. 

The truth is that no one knows exactly how safe these things are, and the long term effects have not been studied well. 

That is why they need to be limited to situations where the alternative would be lethal force.


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## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

maniclion said:


> I see what you're saying about the tasers usefullness when less-than lethal force needs to be used, but honestly none of what the cop did was working towards diffusing the situation, he started yelling and manhandling her mere seconds after she said "give me the ticket and I'll sign it..."
> 
> He let a feeble old woman juice him up, he's a hothead who could end up being a danger to himself, others on the force and the public......



ok, ill meet you half way...Trust me dude, I learned some lessons the hard way, i became a cop at 21 years of age fresh out of the university wiht a fowhawk thinking that police work was all about what I saw on the tv show COPS on saturday nights....This cop is probably a good man who got caught up in personal emotions and pride, but so was the lady...When she says 'OK give me the ticket ill sign it", well now its too late to go back to the basics because some force had been used and needs to be completed....could have been prevented by just ingoring it..."Im sorry your having a bad day mam" "I hope you have a better day" "Im gona leave the citation on your lap so you can review it, and if you don't agree you can argue it in court, again I hope you ahve a better day"....I dont know about texas, but in Salt Lake you dont have to sign a citation, it dosnt mean anything sign it or not i dont give a shit..............this way, this could have been avoided in my opinion, he could have walked over to his car, called her a bitch and punched his steering wheel and told his buddies about what an old crazy bitch she was and taht he hopes she drops dead...done story, good cops act like they give a shit about whats going on, and then just have a fun time and vent to their buddies about what happened...


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## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


> Those studies are questionable at best. There have been studies done showing that taser usage, coupled with another factor such as heart disease or drug use, resulted in several deaths.
> 
> The truth is that no one knows exactly how safe these things are, and the long term effects have not been studied well.
> 
> That is why they need to be limited to situations where the alternative would be lethal force.



well, no duuuuuuuuuuuh buddy, ofcourse drug use like meth will make the effect worse, captain obvious......So your telling me because (for example) cars can result in deadly car accidents we shouldnt use them????


ALSO, you are sooooooo IGNORANT dude.........Your telling me that tasers (non lethal weapon) (read MY GOD DAMN posts god damnit, they prevent MORE injurie to people who resist)...So you are saying that when someone confronts YOU wiht a deadly weapon or situation, YOU would use a non lethal weapon and risk death to stop the situation from happening...YOUR PRECEPTION of reality is so far gone you need medication, WOULD YOU put your LIFE in danger if it was YOU on the streets??


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## maxpro2 (Jun 11, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> So here is the FACT, the taser avoided the granny from getting twisted into a pretzel possibly slammed on the ground and maybe even punched because she would have resisted the officer when he HAD TO TAKE CONTROL BECAUE ITS HIS JOB...SO the taser caused her a little pain for 5 seconds and she complied right after, but if the cop did not have a taser he would had had to use a lot more physical actions thus probably breaking the granny’s hip in the process and hurting her more...........................
> 
> 
> Ill give you an example of many that I have.............   1:30AM in the middle of a infamous park in the city, in the pitch dark. A guy who has a 2nd degree felony warrant for a robbery has just been seen entering the park 5 minutes ago. I find a man matching his description walking towards me. I try to stop and talk to him because i have MORE than enough "reasonable suspicion". He starts walking away and denies talking to me, I tell him three times to stop and tlak to me but he does not and starts explaining why I don’t have the right to do this to him. (keep in mind he is a possible wanted felon and he is trespassing in the park at night). He refuses to comply and I have to do something since I am the cop and I have to be in charge. So it has come to this, I have to be physical, I grab his arm, and he pulls away, so I grab his neck and throw him on the ground. Now there is 250 pounds of muscle and equipment on top of this guy but he does a pushup like a fucking rabbit and throws me off him. 3 whole minutes pass by with me screaming "stop resisting" and him screaming "Police brutality help help", my co workers can't find me because its a huge park and punches, kicks are being exchanged.....The guy is high on meth and he can’t feel that his nose is broken and its bleeding out everywhere....I was clearly beating his ass but I was getting tired as hell...SO, I pull my taser and tase him THREE freaking times before he decides to stop trying to take the wires out of his body and give up.    Now i know grandma was not a big fighter but the cop avoided more injury to her by tasing her than having to go physical in which case INGORANT PEOPLE LIKE YOU would still be "AT A LOSS FOR WORDS".
> ...



1) To compare these situations is absurd... a potentially dangerous felon who is running away versus a 72-year old lady who was a little rowdy 
but posed no threat.

2) You are a cop see a valid analogy between the two situations? That scares me. Are you familar with _Graham v. Connor_ at all? How is tasing a 72-year old lady for not signing a ticket reasonable? Would a reasonable officer fear for his life? Was she trying to escape? 

3) If instead of an old lady there was a young wanted felon, I would be arguing that it was a valid use of the Taser because the threat posed to the officer would be extremely high. 

4) Tasers cause a lot more than "a little pain."


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## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


> 1) To compare these situations is absurd... a potentially dangerous felon who is running away versus a 72-year old lady who was a little rowdy
> but posed no threat.
> 
> 2) You are a cop see a valid analogy between the two situations? That scares me. Are you familar with _Graham v. Connor_ at all? How is tasing a 72-year old lady for not signing a ticket reasonable? Would a reasonable officer fear for his life? Was she trying to escape?
> ...




dude, stop playing lawyer...and NO im not comparing...IM simply explaining how tasers AVOID FURTHER INJURIE, what is wrong wiht you ?? READ MY GOD DAMN posts......jesus fucking christare you blind??


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## maniclion (Jun 11, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> ok, ill meet you half way...Trust me dude, I learned some lessons the hard way, i became a cop at 21 years of age fresh out of the university wiht a fowhawk thinking that police work was all about what I saw on the tv show COPS on saturday nights....This cop is probably a good man who got caught up in personal emotions and pride, but so was the lady...When she says 'OK give me the ticket ill sign it", well now its too late to go back to the basics because some force had been used and needs to be completed....could have been prevented by just ingoring it..."Im sorry your having a bad day mam" "I hope you have a better day" "Im gona leave the citation on your lap so you can review it, and if you don't agree you can argue it in court, again I hope you ahve a better day"....I dont know about texas, but in Salt Lake you dont have to sign a citation, it dosnt mean anything sign it or not i dont give a shit..............this way, this could have been avoided in my opinion, he could have walked over to his car, called her a bitch and punched his steering wheel and told his buddies about what an old crazy bitch she was and taht he hopes she drops dead...done story, good cops act like they give a shit about whats going on, and then just have a fun time and vent to their buddies about what happened...


That's exactly what he should have done.  When I rented exotic cars our shop was in the back of a gas station where the cops would hang out for breaks.  I spent 3 years several hours a day with those guys I heard all of their stories and was the one they would vent to when they had a bad day.  We would talk about anything, I would tell them about my recent trips on acid, or how drunk I still was that morning and one of them would confide in me about using roids, or one would tell me he still smoked weed with his GF before they fucked.  I was their laptop repair guy, too.  Having spent that much time I know those guys would have all handled that situation differently.  I guess it's the Aloha spirit or something but in Hawaii we treat the elderly with respect even when they get cranky like this old weezer did.


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## maxpro2 (Jun 11, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> well, no duuuuuuuuuuuh buddy, ofcourse drug use like meth will make the effect worse, captain obvious......So your telling me because (for example) cars can result in deadly car accidents we shouldnt use them????


1) That is the worst argument I've ever heard. 
2) You aren't that educated, are you? 
3) The long term effects are not known. And most of the studies studying the effects that conclude they are safe are down by the taser companies...



QuestionGuy said:


> So you are saying that when someone confronts YOU wiht a deadly weapon or situation, YOU would use a non lethal weapon and risk death to stop the situation from happening...YOUR PRECEPTION of reality is so far gone you need medication, WOULD YOU put your LIFE in danger if it was YOU on the streets??



1) Can you please take a class in grammar and spelling? You are not exactly helping cops look better with your horrible arguments and poor use of English.
2) I am saying, as does the Supreme Court, that actions need to be reasonable. If a gun is pulled on an officer, of course the first weapon the officer should reach for is a gun.

Tasers need to be limited to diffusing violent situations where the officer feels threatened--where the only alternative would be deadly force. If a possibly dangerous felon is fleeing police and a Taser can be used safely instead of just killing him, then that is a good use of the Taser. 

If an man is charging a group of police and a Taser can be used to stop him instead of killing him, then that is a good use of the Taser.

Tasing an elderly woman because she was rowdy in refusing to sign a ticket IS NOT A GOOD USE OF THE TASER.


----------



## maxpro2 (Jun 11, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> M simply explaining how tasers AVOID FURTHER INJURIE, what is wrong wiht you ?? READ MY GOD DAMN posts......jesus fucking christare you blind??



So you are saying here that there were no other options than slamming this old lady to the pavement and that justifies the use of the Taser here? Really? No other options in handling this elderly lady?

This is my point: The Taser should never be used to force a person to comply with an order given by an officer where there is no immediate threat to the life or safety of the officer or others.


----------



## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

1. Yes I am very well educated
2. I type very fast and if you dont like the way I write, thats too bad for you I'm not spending time to fix my writing because YOU do not matter to me.
3. English is my third language and I have mastered it well.
4. READ MY GOD DAMN POSTS YOU STUPID IDIOT.
5. If some dude is chargint at me I will move aside and POSSIBLY tase him, deadly force is out of the question. 
6. if a guy was chargin at me wihta  gun/knife/rock/stick/scissor and anything that can even cause me a moderate injurie I WILL NOT tase him, I will put as many bullet thru his head as I can before he drops dead...
7. READ MYGOD DAMN POSTS


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## tucker01 (Jun 11, 2009)

Not often I am on side with Maxpro2, but funny how neither one of us read QuestionGuy's post correctly.

I am still waiting to hear what the knowledge and experience is that you  learned that would side on that of an officer taking that kind of action?


----------



## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

8. You are a moron
9. READ MY POSTS
10. You didnt really read my posts because you would have writen that.


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## maxpro2 (Jun 11, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> 6. if a guy was chargin at me wihta  gun/knife/rock/stick/scissor and anything that can even cause me a moderate injurie I WILL NOT tase him, I will put as many bullet thru his head as I can before he drops dead...



So even if you could safely apply the Taser to him, you would elect to take a life just because you could? You should not be a cop you fucking power abusing prick.


----------



## maxpro2 (Jun 11, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> 9. READ MY POSTS



I did, unfortunately.


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## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


> So even if you could safely apply the Taser to him, you would elect to take a life just because you could? You should not be a cop you fucking power abusing prick.



WRONG...NOT like that at ALL, again if your read a few of my posts you would know that..........AND YES, if the motherfucker had any chance of cauing severe injuriy to me or anyone else (even you) I would put him down like a fuckin dog...but hey, im not judging you, if you want to risk your life and tase someone who is attacking you wiht a deadly weapon than so be it, I wont miss you....your preception of reality is out of whack....read my comments, far from "power hungry"..waht does that even mean>?


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## tucker01 (Jun 11, 2009)

Everyone read your comments and came to the same conclusion.  Ever think your communication skills might be the problem, considering multiple sources have pointed out the opposite of what you think it is?

Don't bitch at people about reading your posts when you can't even quote what they are saying correctly.  No where do I see "power hungry".


----------



## maxpro2 (Jun 11, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


> So even if you could safely apply the Taser to him, you would elect to take a life just because you could?





QuestionGuy said:


> YES, if the motherfucker had any chance of cauing severe injuriy to me or anyone else (even you) I would put him down like a fuckin dog...



Let's compare how you would respond in a situation with how good police officers would respond:


			
				http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1 said:
			
		

> When Orem officers arrived at a group home on Feb. 2, 2005, the 6 foot, 200 pound, mentally unstable boy had broken off two legs from a chair and was threatening himself and others.
> 
> "I saw (him) coming toward us in a very threatening manner as he was holding those sticks above him as if he was going to stab one of us," an officer wrote in his police report obtained by the Deseret News.
> 
> ...



So you would have shot this mentally unstable boy and don't see the merit of using a Taser here? Just shoot the kid because you can? My conclusion stands: you probably shouldn't be a cop.


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## KelJu (Jun 11, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> nevermind dude, you are not being reasonable and or rational at this moment....and you are not really reading my comments and wanting to understand so I hope you have a better day...You know, Morning sex really can improve your whole outlook on the day, try it.



Don't taze Ian please.


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## maniclion (Jun 11, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


> So you would have shot this mentally unstable boy and don't see the merit of using a Taser here? Just shoot the kid because you can? My conclusion stands: you probably shouldn't be a cop.


You didn't read his post, he said if a person were "charging" at him with a lethal weapon he would shoot him......I think 99% of police officers would do the same....being threatened by a person standing still and being charged at are 2 different scenarios.....

I am usually the one all over Questiondudes posts because I like to aggravate him but none of you have actually read and comprehended what he wrote....

I think you guys are coming in here biased towards him because of previous threads where he defended every action of an officer....


----------



## maxpro2 (Jun 11, 2009)

maniclion said:


> You didn't read his post, he said if a person were "charging" at him with a lethal weapon he would shoot him..



No, this is what he said.



> 6. if a guy was chargin at me wihta gun/knife/rock/stick/scissor and anything that can even cause me a moderate injurie I WILL NOT tase him, I will put as many bullet thru his head as I can before he drops dead...





maniclion said:


> I think you guys are coming in here biased towards him because of previous threads where he defended every action of an officer....


I am actually not a "cop-hater" with several cops in my own family. However, that doesn't mean I will give cops a blank check to do what they want... I will still call cops out if I think there is a potential abuse.


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## maniclion (Jun 11, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


> No, this is what he said.


Yes gun knife, rock, scissor all capable of injuring his arm or knocking him unconscious to where he won't be able to counter the next attack to his jugular, head or femoral artery.....


----------



## maxpro2 (Jun 11, 2009)

maniclion said:


> Yes gun knife, rock, scissor all capable of injuring his arm or knocking him unconscious to where he won't be able to counter the next attack to his jugular, head or femoral artery.....



How is that different from the article I quoted? Don't you think that was a good result? 

QuestionGuy is basically saying that as long as he can use deadly force, he will, even if he could *safely* deploy a taser. 

How is this reasonable? To be honest, throwing out these hypotheticals was kind of a trap for him. A responsible police officer wouldn't even engage in hypotheticals because every situation is going to be different and calls for an on-the-spot judgment about what level of force should be used. The fact that he has this blanket policy that he will kill anyone who attempts anything on him is inherently unreasonable and shows just what a poor cop he is.


----------



## maniclion (Jun 11, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


> How is that different from the article I quoted? Don't you think that was a good result?
> 
> QuestionGuy is basically saying that as long as he can use deadly force, he will, even if he could *safely* deploy a taser.
> 
> How is this reasonable? To be honest, throwing out these hypotheticals was kind of a trap for him. A responsible police officer wouldn't even engage in hypotheticals because every situation is going to be different and calls for an on-the-spot judgment about what level of force should be used. The fact that he has this blanket policy that he will kill anyone who attempts anything on him is inherently unreasonable and shows just what a poor cop he is.


What he says on a message board while venting and how he actually performs in the field makes all the difference.  His first post and subsequent posts suggest that he takes a more calm rational approach to actual situations but puts on his E-tough guy approach in his hypotheticals.  One time he told a story of a guy who drove through a police road block with an attitude and he was calm the whole time while actually dealing with him even though he admitted he wanted to be an asshole to the guy.  In this situation he admitted he would have been as polite as possible to the old woman and let her drive off without even signing the ticket because it wasn't necessary.  He avoids escalating things to confrontation in real life which is what good cops are supposed to do.....


----------



## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


> How is that different from the article I quoted? Don't you think that was a good result?
> 
> QuestionGuy is basically saying that as long as he can use deadly force, he will, even if he could *safely* deploy a taser.
> 
> How is this reasonable? To be honest, throwing out these hypotheticals was kind of a trap for him. A responsible police officer wouldn't even engage in hypotheticals because every situation is going to be different and calls for an on-the-spot judgment about what level of force should be used. The fact that he has this blanket policy that he will kill anyone who attempts anything on him is inherently unreasonable and shows just what a poor cop he is.



HOW THE HELL would you know "what a good police officer would do"...You are not a cop and never experienced anything that they go thru, so what in the world makes you so qualified??? And that was not a "hypothetical" that was a true story......and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, READ the follwing, you spend a lot of time today trying to convey your message about something you dont really understand so please spend some more time and read this A Professor'   and report back when you actually read the whole thing and apy attention.


----------



## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

maniclion said:


> What he says on a message board while venting and how he actually performs in the field makes all the difference.  His first post and subsequent posts suggest that he takes a more calm rational approach to actual situations but puts on his E-tough guy approach in his hypotheticals.  One time he told a story of a guy who drove through a police road block with an attitude and he was calm the whole time while actually dealing with him even though he admitted he wanted to be an asshole to the guy.  In this situation he admitted he would have been as polite as possible to the old woman and let her drive off without even signing the ticket because it wasn't necessary.  He avoids escalating things to confrontation in real life which is what good cops are supposed to do.....



who are you and what did you do to blonde gayboy with 5 dogs and a slow BMW???


  to much to soon ?


----------



## Dale Mabry (Jun 11, 2009)

Since he's a douche for zapping the shit out of a 900 year old lady and she is such a bitch at this point in life that she refuses to perform a task as simple as signing a ticket, I think this one's a push.  Although, any person who doesn't find any irony in pulling over a 90 year old for speeding couldn't possibly know better.


----------



## maniclion (Jun 11, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> who are you and what did you do to blonde gayboy with 5 dogs and a slow BMW???
> 
> 
> to much to soon ?


I don't go by ManicLion for nothing, I am a dyslexic manicshifter, right now I am in the manic-undepressed shift, my creativity starts to excel and I am more energetic and alert and in a generally good mood, then I will down shift back to a Manic-Depressed state where I shift randomly between highs and lows, my brain won't even let me be a normal manic-depressive....so don't FUCK with ME!


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## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

uuuuuuuummmmmmkkkkkkkkk........movin on then.........




BTW, have you seen "The hangover" ??? After that the word "dont fuck WITH me" will forever become "Don't fuck ON me"...funny shit...."Im not fucking on you bro"


----------



## sshamm_bone_1 (Jun 11, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> HOW THE HELL would you know "what a good police officer would do"...You are not a cop and never experienced anything that they go thru, so what in the world makes you so qualified??? And that was not a "hypothetical" that was a true story......and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, READ the follwing, you spend a lot of time today trying to convey your message about something you dont really understand so please spend some more time and read this A Professor'   and report back when you actually read the whole thing and apy attention.




That was a good read....I was trying to say that in an earlier post that you don't know what the officer has experienced with similar situations.  Maybe the Taser wasn't the best.....but I don't feel bad for the granny either.   She could of had much worse done to her and there wouldn't of been anything wrong with it.  Don't fuck with the police when you break the law.


----------



## tucker01 (Jun 11, 2009)

sshamm_bone_1 said:


> That was a good read....I was trying to say that in an earlier post that you don't know what the officer has experienced with similar situations.  Maybe the Taser wasn't the best.....but I don't feel bad for the granny either.   She could of had much worse done to her and there wouldn't of been anything wrong with it.  Don't fuck with the police when you break the law.




I see.

RESPECT MA AUTHORITY


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## min0 lee (Jun 11, 2009)

I hate when I leave a thread and come back and lose my place.

What happened? Who's winning? Who's gay? Please fill me in.


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## tucker01 (Jun 11, 2009)

IAB happened,  IAB won, IAB is most definitely GAY.


----------



## min0 lee (Jun 11, 2009)

I should have known, it's business as usual.


----------



## maniclion (Jun 11, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> I should have known, it's business as usual.



Albob dressed in drag and fought the law and the law won.....


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## min0 lee (Jun 11, 2009)

maniclion said:


> Albob dressed in drag and fought the law and the law won.....



He finally won something, now that's unusual.


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## brogers (Jun 11, 2009)

We treat terrorists in Guantanamo Bay better than the cop treated this old woman.  Disgusting.


----------



## I Are Baboon (Jun 11, 2009)

IainDaniel said:


> IAB happened,  IAB won, IAB is most definitely GAY.





min0 lee said:


> I should have known, it's business as usual.



God damn.


----------



## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

brogers said:


> We treat terrorists in Guantanamo Bay better than the cop treated this old woman.  Disgusting.



hey why dont you fuck off....that train already departed.


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## maxpro2 (Jun 11, 2009)

brogers said:


> We treat terrorists in Guantanamo Bay better than the cop treated this old woman.  Disgusting.



This may be the first time I agree with brogers... unless he is arguing that terrorists at Guantanamo Bay should be treated worse instead of that this lady should have been treated better


----------



## maxpro2 (Jun 11, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> about something you dont really understand s



I understand perfectly well. This police officer used excessive force in Tasing the old lady, and you would clearly opt to take someone's life just because you could in a situation where a Taser could _safely_ be used effectively.

I understand well: you and this officer in question are poor excuses for police officers and are examples of why the public hates cops so much.


----------



## KelJu (Jun 11, 2009)

I wanted to reply to many post here, but it really would have been a waste of time. 

I do want to comment, though. A man that would taze an elderly lady is a coward, and a little man on a power play. There is no excuse for it. He should be fired, and brought up on charges, but he won't.  

A man that would pull a taser on an unarmed elderly woman is scum. If the authorities of our nation wanted us to have better opinions of them, and show them respect, they should make examples out of people like this rather than sweeping it under the rug like they always do. 

What would happen if I lost my temper and cursed out a client who is being a douchbag? I would be fired... plain and simple. No discussion and no leave without pay. Nearly every American in this country has to deal with morons and dickheads on a daily basis. That does not give someone the right to retaliate.   

Respect is earned by acting like a decent human being. It doesn't come with the badge. If this guy is allowed to keep his job, and I am sure he will, it will just just create more disdain and disrespect for the law, and the so called authorities in general.


----------



## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


> I understand perfectly well. This police officer used excessive force in Tasing the old lady, and you would clearly opt to take someone's life just because you could in a situation where a Taser could _safely_ be used effectively.
> 
> I understand well: you and this officer in question are poor excuses for police officers and are examples of why the public hates cops so much.



WOW DUDE, did someone slip me a weed brownie today or something because YOU are FREAKING blowing my mind......WHAT a moron.


----------



## brogers (Jun 11, 2009)

KelJu said:


> I wanted to reply to many post here, but it really would have been a waste of time.
> 
> I do want to comment, though. A man that would taze an elderly lady is a coward, and a little man on a power play. There is no excuse for it. He should be fired, and brought up on charges, but he won't.
> 
> ...



Prepare the inevitable "BUT OUR LIVES ARE ON THE LINE DAILY!!!"  which ignores the fact that there are countless occupations which have higher fatality and injury rates, mine included.


----------



## brogers (Jun 11, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


> This may be the first time I agree with brogers... unless he is arguing that terrorists at Guantanamo Bay should be treated worse instead of that this lady should have been treated better



I originally meant just the woman should be treated better, but after further reflection, I decided I'll take both.


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## maxpro2 (Jun 11, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> WOW DUDE, did someone slip me a weed brownie today or something because YOU are FREAKING blowing my mind......WHAT a moron.



If anyone slipped you a brownie today, it wasn't a weed brownie... it was most likely an "uneducated piece of power abusing shit police officer" one.


----------



## maxpro2 (Jun 11, 2009)

brogers said:


> I originally meant just the woman should be treated better, but after further reflection, I decided I'll take both.



hahaha fair enough.


----------



## AKIRA (Jun 11, 2009)

What I want to know is, how come when any cop is in question, other cops, who are not involved whatsoever, empathize to the point that they think THEY are the victims (or abusers).

QuestionGuy, is it really so hard to accept that this guy sucked?  We dont need excuses for him.  Weve heard them before and not just from you.


----------



## QuestionGuy (Jun 11, 2009)

AKIRA said:


> What I want to know is, how come when any cop is in question, other cops, who are not involved whatsoever, empathize to the point that they think THEY are the victims (or abusers).
> 
> QuestionGuy, is it really so hard to accept that this guy sucked?  We dont need excuses for him.  Weve heard them before and not just from you.



YOU DIDN'T EVEN READ MY POSTS DUDE, PLEASE JUST READ MY POSTS DUDE...YOU ARE MAKING AN ASS OUT OF YOURSELF, JUST READ MY POSTS.


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## maxpro2 (Jun 11, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> YOU DIDN'T EVEN READ MY POSTS DUDE, PLEASE JUST READ MY POSTS DUDE...YOU ARE MAKING AN ASS OUT OF YOURSELF, JUST READ MY POSTS.


----------



## danzik17 (Jun 11, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


>



Well played sir.  Well played.


----------



## soxmuscle (Jun 11, 2009)

Grandma?


----------



## AKIRA (Jun 12, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


>



Hahhahaha!

I dont know whats funnier.  You acknowledging the obvious or laughing at your own joke.


----------



## Will Brink (Jun 12, 2009)

Prince said:


> Its pretty funny stuff?
> 
> No its not funny at all, what if that was your mother or grandmother?



If my mother or grandmother was acting like a complete A-hole as that woman was, they would get no sympathy from me of they got tazed. Writing checks with your mouth your body is not willing to cash, is never a good idea. People seem to have a total lack of respect for the law and a total disconnect between their behavior/actions and the outcomes/results of those behaviors/actions. The stupid woman will probably try and sue the officer and appear on every talk show possible to get her 15 minutes of fame while whining about getting tazed.


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## maxpro2 (Jun 12, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> The stupid woman will probably try and sue the officer



Police officers are held to a higher standard. They do not get to inflict pain on someone just because they don't like what that person is saying or because that person is stupid. Use of force needs to be escalated based on need, such as when there is a dangerous threat, and there was no need to use that level of force here. 

I hope this lady does sue and I hope this officer gets fired. Having a lack of respect for the law does not mean you can be tortured with some of the highest pain that one can experience.

Yes, she was an asshole. No, she should not have been tased.


----------



## Will Brink (Jun 12, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


> Police officers are held to a higher standard. They do not get to inflict pain on someone just because they don't like what that person is saying or because that person is stupid.



 They tell you to do X, and you don't comply, they are authorized to then use force to make you comply. His options were limited. He could use pepper spray, or he could go "hands on" which also has risks. He used what presented the least risk to her and himself. I'm sure you wont understand how realty works in such a situation. He's not going to stand there in a busy highway and argue with her, nor should he. He tells you to move, you move. You don't, force will be applied, and the taser is the safetst use of force there is. That's a fact.



maxpro2 said:


> Use of force needs to be escalated based on need, such as when there is a dangerous threat, and there was no need to use that level of force here.



Wrong. She was told, then warned (to which she replied "I dare you!") and force was applied. His dept will stand behind them as they should.



maxpro2 said:


> I hope this lady does sue



She will lose.



maxpro2 said:


> and I hope this officer gets fired. Having a lack of respect for the law does not mean you can be tortured with some of the highest pain that one can experience.



Again, see above. You, like many people, really have no clue what you are talking about/ understand use of force in such a situation. 



maxpro2 said:


> Yes, she was an asshole. No, she should not have been tased.



The A Hole part is not really important (though an A Hole she was...). What's important is, she was given an instruction, then correctly warned, then force used. Some cops might have gone "hands on" and used an arm lock then cuffed her, some may have given her a nice dose of pepper spray, but none would allow her to ignore the instructions given after she came out of the car cursing, etc. Shocking as this sounds, cops are not society's personal punching bags either, and abuse does get their attention. 

She got exactly what she deserved (though he could have tried another tactic no doubt...) and he will be cleared.


----------



## danzik17 (Jun 12, 2009)

Would need to see the video to really comment.  If she was moving onto the highway, then yes force was necessary.  If she was just standing next to her car arms crossed, then I don't think it was.

What I find more interesting is how the majority of cops seem to just automatically back up their buddies.  Take the recent case of 2 cops shooting a family's dog because they couldn't catch it.  Rather than using common sense and calling the SCPA, they shot the dog - on the family's porch no less.

It's actions like that which cause me to lose respect for police.  I know there are good cops out there, but then you hear about the abusive powertripping douchebag ones and it's very difficult to tell the type at first glance.


----------



## soxmuscle (Jun 12, 2009)

Excessive force from a Police Officer?

I'm shocked.

This shit happens more often than not; in other words, there are more shit Cops who shouldn't be wearing the badge than good Cops who actually earn their keep.


----------



## QuestionGuy (Jun 12, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> They tell you to do X, and you don't comply, they are authorized to then use force to make you comply. His options were limited. He could use pepper spray, or he could go "hands on" which also has risks. He used what presented the least risk to her and himself. I'm sure you wont understand how realty works in such a situation. He's not going to stand there in a busy highway and argue with her, nor should he. He tells you to move, you move. You don't, force will be applied, and the taser is the safetst use of force there is. That's a fact.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



DUDE, "Have you read my posts" roflmao    ...Don't even try they dont have a real preception on reality.


----------



## Will Brink (Jun 12, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> DUDE, "Have you read my posts" roflmao    ...Don't even try they dont have a real preception on reality.



 Granny got what she got due to her own actions and his use of, and level of, force was well within legal and (if one actually understands use of force doctrine, etc) understandable. Hopefully, white trash granny learned a lesson there, but if she's that big an A Hole at 73, I doubt she'll learn anything from that experience either.


----------



## QuestionGuy (Jun 12, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> Granny got what she got due to her own actions and his use of, and level of, force was well within legal and (if one actually understands use of force doctrine, etc) understandable. Hopefully, white trash granny learned a lesson there, but if she's that big an A Hole at 73, I doubt she'll learn anything from that experience either.



It's useless dude, they will either come back with personal attacks and insults or completely ignore that you put them in the "reality corner" and just refuse to make a realistic comeback to the situation.


----------



## QuestionGuy (Jun 12, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> Granny got what she got due to her own actions and his use of, and level of, force was well within legal and (if one actually understands use of force doctrine, etc) understandable. Hopefully, white trash granny learned a lesson there, but if she's that big an A Hole at 73, I doubt she'll learn anything from that experience either.



   ALSOOOOO.........He wants tasers being used in only deadly lethal situations....Yeah this guy should be a cop, obviously he would be a great cop dude, his logic just makes sence...if someone has a deadly weapon in their hands, jsut shoot him wiht the taser..no need for guns at all dude...tasers do jsut fine in deadly situations.....WOW MIND BLOWING IGNORANT SHEEP.


----------



## QuestionGuy (Jun 12, 2009)

" I'm sure you wont understand how realty works in such a situation. He's not going to stand there in a busy highway and argue with her, nor should he. He tells you to move, you move. You don't, force will be applied, and the taser is the safetst use of force there is. That's a fact. "

CHECKMATE!!! 

i know i know, i just can't let it go.


----------



## maxpro2 (Jun 12, 2009)

First of all, watch the whole video or read the whole transcript of the altercation. You can hear her say she would sign the ticket but by then the officer wouldn't let her so the she became even more combative




WillBrink said:


> They tell you to do X, and you don't comply, they are authorized to then use force to make you comply. His options were limited. He could use pepper spray, or he could go "hands on"


Absolutely not. Ever hear of something called the Fourth Amendment? There is a test for excessive force: go look it up and tell me how his actions were consistent with that test. 



WillBrink said:


> His dept will stand behind them as they should.


Travis County Sheriff Greg Hamilton, whose office does not oversee the constables, issued a statement Wednesday saying: "I do not personally agree with the actions of the deputy constable as they are shown in the video. When I look at the video I am in awe of what happened."



WillBrink said:


> She will lose.


The law regarding the use of tasers for mere compliance is pretty undeveloped in the Fifth Circuit. Her case has merit. If you think she will lose, show me the relevant precedents. If a prisoner cannot be tased for refusing to comply with an order such as cleaning his cell, then I am highly curious as to how you see she will lose so easily. Show me your sources... oh wait, you didn't research anything and just made an assertion on what think the outcome should be, right?



WillBrink said:


> Again, see above. You, like many people, really have no clue what you are talking about/ understand use of force in such a situation.


It seems as if the opposite is true as you have provided only opinion.




WillBrink said:


> What's important is, she was given an instruction, then correctly warned, then force used.


Nope. There was no need for that level of force as she posed no threat. 



WillBrink said:


> She got exactly what she deserved (though he could have tried another tactic no doubt...) and he will be cleared.


If you think she deserved that then you are a heartless prick.


----------



## maniclion (Jun 12, 2009)

So if he hadn't had the taser what was his next option, beat her with his baton, or pistol whip her?  

Why don't you guys just admit the cop let a little old lady push his buttons. Those dangerous little old grannies, we gotta watch out for them, they might get fussy with us......

There were better ways for him to deal with her.  His yelling and forceful actions escalated the issue when she was just starting to realize if she signed the ticket it would all end.  He could have calmy said, "Ma'am lets step to the back of your vehicle so that we aren't in danger of getting hit by traffic."  Instead he grabs her and forces her....then starts yelling as if he just got done with a high speed pursuit.......  If cops aren't aloud to lose their cool after a high speed chase, what makes it ok during a routine traffic stop?


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## Will Brink (Jun 12, 2009)

QuestionGuy said:


> ALSOOOOO.........He wants tasers being used in only deadly lethal situations....Yeah this guy should be a cop, obviously he would be a great cop dude, his logic just makes sence...if someone has a deadly weapon in their hands, jsut shoot him wiht the taser..no need for guns at all dude...tasers do jsut fine in deadly situations.....WOW MIND BLOWING IGNORANT SHEEP.



Just armchair experts doing what they always do.


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## Yanick (Jun 12, 2009)

maniclion said:


> So if he hadn't had the taser what was his next option, beat her with his baton, or pistol whip her?
> 
> Why don't you guys just admit the cop let a little old lady push his buttons. Those dangerous little old grannies, we gotta watch out for them, they might get fussy with us......
> 
> There were better ways for him to deal with her.  His yelling and forceful actions escalated the issue when she was just starting to realize if she signed the ticket it would all end.  He could have calmy said, "Ma'am lets step to the back of your vehicle so that we aren't in danger of getting hit by traffic."  Instead he grabs her and forces her....then starts yelling as if he just got done with a high speed pursuit.......  If cops aren't aloud to lose their cool after a high speed chase, what makes it ok during a routine traffic stop?



Amen to that.

There are protocols which fit 99% of situations but then there is also something called common sense. An example being the guy behind the counter who says to give him $4 instead of $4.05. The thing costs 4.05 and if you follow protocol you need to collect 4.05 for the item, a person who thinks to himself, well I might not have enough change for the next customer if I give this guy .95, or maybe he just wants to be a nice guy and give you a break will just say 4 bucks is cool.

Now legalities and force application protocols aside, common sense should dictate what to do in this situation. I typically side with Will on stuff like this but I'm sorry just because he was legally justified to tase her doesn't mean it was right. Morality and legality are not always congruent and I believe a good cop should be a moral person and not some douche who loses his cool when an old lady yells at him. Was it even necessary for her to sign the ticket? He has everything on camera, I'm sure he could've just given her the ticket and been on his way. There's gotta be fail safes for assholes who won't sign (in NYC they just mail it to you if you refuse to accept). She wasn't going to push him into traffic, nor was she running around wildly and posing a danger to anyone. She was just being an asshole and not complying. Moral abuse of power 100%.


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## maxpro2 (Jun 12, 2009)

Yanick said:


> I'm sorry just because he was legally justified to tase her doesn't mean it was right.



Even that is highly questionable in the fifth circuit. I agree with your post though, which is the point I was trying to push with QuestionGuy... that he would elect to take the most severe force option just because he was entitled to, even if he could safely diffuse the situation with less force.


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## Will Brink (Jun 12, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


> Absolutely not. Ever hear of something called the Fourth Amendment?



How does the amend that guards against unreasonable searches and seizures cover this event? 



maxpro2 said:


> There is a test for excessive force: go look it up and tell me how his actions were consistent with that test.



His actions were consistent with the use of force continuum. Whether the amount/type of force applied will be deemed "excessive" remains to be seen. I say no, it was not. 




maxpro2 said:


> The law regarding the use of tasers for mere compliance is pretty undeveloped in the Fifth Circuit. Her case has merit. If you think she will lose, show me the relevant precedents. If a prisoner cannot be tased for refusing to comply with an order such as cleaning his cell,




And can be tased  for all manner of reasons having to do with non compliance which is related to the issue of excessive force and the force continuum. She was not refusing to clean her room. She was refusing to sign a ticket and being arrested. Maybe this simpleton stuff of yours works on other goofy kids I don't know, but it's not working here.



maxpro2 said:


> then I am highly curious as to how you see she will lose so easily. Show me your sources... oh wait, you didn't research anything and just made an assertion on what think the outcome should be, right?



How about a $100 bet? It's public record and mods can record it. I will pay up, will you? 




maxpro2 said:


> Nope. There was no need for that level of force as she posed no threat.



One does not need to be a threat for force to be used against them by law enforcement. The issue is whether the level of force is/was appropriate to the situation. I say it was. You say it's not. 

What's funny is, you cluless types who really have no idea what cops have to deal with every day and love to armchair expert such things ignore the reason it happened: her actions. FYI, she's not just an A Hole, but a lying A Hole:

"She denied the charge, telling a local Fox News reporter, *'I was not argumentative. I was not combative. Every bit of this is a lie.'* In response, the constable???s office released the dashboard video of the arrest..."


Lets recap her actions:

"After Deputy Chris Bieze finished writing the ticket, he gave it to her and asked her to sign it.Winkfein refused. Bieze insisted, saying he would have to arrest her if she didn???t sign the ticket. When she wouldn???t sign, he opened the door to the truck and told her to get out."

So once out of the truck she:

???Give me the [expletive] thing and I???ll sign it,??? she tells Bieze, but the officer has already told her she is being arrested. When Winkfein strays close to the traffic lane, the officer pushes her onto the shoulder."

Ah, so now she has a change of heart at the LEO should allow that? He has no reason to, and from her verbal abuse, no intent to either. I'm taking this from MSNBC site:

Great-grandma dared cop to Tase her â?????? so he did - TODAY People



maxpro2 said:


> If you think she deserved that then you are a heartless prick.



Nah, I just actually hold people accountable to their actions and see the actual cause and effect of the outcome SHE created. Lets recap how reality works in the real world:

You refuse to sign ticket, verbally abuse cop, refuse to follow cops orders when given a command, warned you will be tased if you don't follow that command and guess what sparky, the chicken dance is the result. 

Call me a waaaambulance.....


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## maxpro2 (Jun 12, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> How does the amend that guards against unreasonable searches and seizures cover this event?



Wow.... just wow. I am not even going to read the rest of your post because you CLEARLY do not know anything about the law and are in no position to be posting in this thread. Thanks for proving just how ignorant you are.

It is hilarious how people who know nothing about the law doll out advice and opinions as if they are experts. You sir are a joke. It's fucking scary, really.


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## Will Brink (Jun 12, 2009)

Yanick said:


> . Moral abuse of power 100%.



And on that score I can agree. He could have handled it better, and the cops I know who have watched it, generally agree it could have been handled better. But was he within legal response to her non compliance to his verbal commands?  I believe so. Hindsight is always 20/20, but at the end of the day, the reason it went as it did was due to her actions. She's the responsible party here. Lesson is, don't be an A Hole to people, cops or otherwise and you will avoid all sorts of problems in life.


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## Will Brink (Jun 12, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


> Wow.... just wow. I am not even going to read the rest of your post because you CLEARLY do not know anything about the law and are in no position to be posting in this thread. Thanks for proving just how ignorant you are.
> 
> It is hilarious how people who know nothing about the law doll out advice and opinions as if they are experts. You sir are a joke.



Best avoidance response ever! Well done  sir.


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## maxpro2 (Jun 12, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> How does the amend that guards against unreasonable searches and seizures cover this event?





WillBrink said:


> Best avoidance response ever! Well done  sir.



If you don't even know that the excessive force doctrine for free persons is found in the Fourth Amendment, you have no right to be commenting on matters of law. You have just lost all credibility.


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## Will Brink (Jun 12, 2009)

maxpro2 said:


> If you don't even know that the excessive force doctrine for free persons is found in the Fourth Amendment, you have no right to be commenting on matters of law. You have just lost all credibility.



It's the "test of reasonableness" but it's not limited to the 4th genius. Let's see if it makes it to court, and see what's decided if it does. The Landmark Decisions on the issue (e.g, Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989)) cover it well  _"The calculus of reasonableness must embody allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split- second judgments -- in circumstances that are tense, uncertain, and rapidly revolving -- about the amount of force that is necessary in a particular situation. "_

It's great to be a law expert such as yourself, and have no clue how the reality applies itself in the real world when you are a cop doing the job. Said experts such as yourself usually give the expert advice from the safety of their parents house of posh legal office. The worst is usually in law school or fresh from law school with cops, DAs, etc (you know, people who know the letter of the law rarely applies perfectly to the real world...) waiting 'till you pull your head out of your ass. All I wanted from you was to explain how YOU saw the 4th applying here beyond the obvious generalities of it.

To summarize, I think the cop overreacted but the end result was 100% her fault and her doing and I think she will lose if it goes to court.


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## danzik17 (Jun 12, 2009)

I'm going to give this a 50/50 split.  I don't agree with the taser (only taking the person's age into consideration and you don't know their medical status), but I DO agree with him pushing her as he did.  She was putting him into a dangerous spot being less than a foot from the edge of the highway and he was justified in getting them away from there as quickly as possible when she wouldn't move.

It's all hindsight though.  Force did seem to be justified, but it's hard to pin down what KIND of force.  Taser could cause medical issues, physical force could break a hip, and you can't just let her go.  Cop seemed to have been put in a very hard spot.


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## Will Brink (Jun 12, 2009)

danzik17 said:


> Cop seemed to have been put in a very hard spot.



Agreed, and as posted above "She denied the charge, telling a local Fox News reporter, 'I was not argumentative. I was not combative. Every bit of this is a lie.' In response, the constable???s office released the dashboard video of the arrest..."


Nice person...


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## maniclion (Jun 12, 2009)

Why are you "Clueless" assholes arguing legality?  The appalling nature of this whole incident is the lack of control on the officers part when faced with a grumpy granny.  Had it been legal for him to toss her into oncoming traffic would he have been as justified according to the laws of human decency?  Hell no?  I guess I am stuck in some kind of chivalrous timewarp where little old ladies, no matter how cranky they got weren't pushed around and zapped with seizure inducing devices.


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## danzik17 (Jun 12, 2009)

maniclion said:


> Why are you "Clueless" assholes arguing legality?  The appalling nature of this whole incident is the lack of control on the officers part when faced with a grumpy granny.  Had it been legal for him to toss her into oncoming traffic would he have been as justified according to the laws of human decency?  Hell no?  I guess I am stuck in some kind of chivalrous timewarp where little old ladies, no matter how cranky they got weren't pushed around and zapped with seizure inducing devices.



Again I'm pretty neutral, but watch the video.  I disagree with the tasering but she was putting both of them in a dangerous spot right next to the highway.  That was one of those "move your ass or I will make you move your ass" moments.


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## JerseyDevil (Jun 12, 2009)

maniclion said:


> Why are you "Clueless" assholes arguing legality? The appalling nature of this whole incident is the lack of control on the officers part when faced with a grumpy granny. Had it been legal for him to toss her into oncoming traffic would he have been as justified according to the laws of human decency? Hell no? I guess I am stuck in some kind of chivalrous timewarp where little old ladies, no matter how cranky they got weren't pushed around and zapped with seizure inducing devices.


Totally agree. Maybe the pussy cop should have just arrested her like a real man, or maybe he was afraid she would kick his ass. What would this pussy had done back in the day before tasers? 

Elderly people can start to lose their senses, and not have their best interests at heart. So we should just taser them and chalk it up to good law enforcement? He could have killed her. The risk of heart attack, stroke, and seizure had to increase 10 fold, all because she got lippy?

Some of the egos on this board make me sick. The 'I know more then you and I will prove it' mentality is killing IM.


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## Yanick (Jun 12, 2009)

maniclion said:


> Why are you "Clueless" assholes arguing legality?  The appalling nature of this whole incident is the lack of control on the officers part when faced with a grumpy granny.  Had it been legal for him to toss her into oncoming traffic would he have been as justified according to the laws of human decency?  Hell no?  I guess I am stuck in some kind of chivalrous timewarp where little old ladies, no matter how cranky they got weren't pushed around and zapped with seizure inducing devices.



+1



JerseyDevil said:


> Totally agree. Maybe the pussy cop should have just arrested her like a real man, or maybe he was afraid she would kick his ass. What would this pussy had done back in the day before tasers?
> 
> Elderly people can start to lose their senses, and not have their best interests at heart. So we should just taser them and chalk it up to good law enforcement? He could have killed her. The risk of heart attack, stroke, and seizure had to increase 10 fold, all because she got lippy?



+1

All legal bullshit aside this is a problem that is rooted in human nature and morality. I could care less what the law says or what the SCOTUS rules or whatever. Will said it himself here:



WillBrink said:


> It's great to be a law expert such as yourself, and have no clue how the reality applies itself in the real world when you are a cop doing the job...The worst is usually in law school or fresh from law school with cops, DAs, etc *(you know, people who know the letter of the law rarely applies perfectly to the real world...)* waiting 'till you pull your head out of your ass.



I'll say this again because someone is gonna come on here with some stupid ass force application doctrine or what have you and defend this douche.

Legality does not equal Morality. We are not robots and have highly evolved brains in order to adapt to situations and apply moral and ethical principles to them. Thats why friends/family of cops get away with shit, the guy at the store will not worry about the 5 cents, fees are waived and rules are bent everyday in specific situations which go against standard protocols in the name of morality, decency, efficiency and other factors that are important to the individual and society as a whole.


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## Will Brink (Jun 13, 2009)

Yanick said:


> in specific situations which go against standard protocols in the name of morality, decency, efficiency and other factors that are important to the individual and society as a whole.



Right, and in the real society, in the real world, laws and efficiency aside, two human beings interacting, run your mouth writing checks your body can't cash may result in getting tased regardless of age or sex. Lady was an abusive lying A Hole and I have zero sympathy for her, and yes, I agree he over reacted.


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## Will Brink (Jun 13, 2009)

maniclion said:


> Why are you "Clueless" assholes arguing legality?  The appalling nature of this whole incident is the lack of control on the officers part when faced with a grumpy granny.  Had it been legal for him to toss her into oncoming traffic would he have been as justified according to the laws of human decency?  Hell no?  I guess I am stuck in some kind of chivalrous timewarp where little old ladies, no matter how cranky they got weren't pushed around and zapped with seizure inducing devices.



Well said. An appalling incident all around.  I just don't like people ignoring her roll in it.


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## brogers (Jun 13, 2009)

Video Page 2009 - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

YouTube - Oklahoma Highway Patrol fight with EMT

More wonderful police action.

Stopping an ambulance, swearing at and physically assaulting a paramedic, while a patient is inside being transported.


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## Will Brink (Jun 13, 2009)

brogers said:


> Stopping an ambulance, swearing at and physically assaulting a paramedic, while a patient is inside being transported.



I have seen that one. Never been clear exactly why he pulled them over. Anyone know the back story to all that? He seems awful pissed at that driver. Something about "hand gestures" and such.


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## brogers (Jun 13, 2009)

The video makes it crystal clear that he is an asshole on a power trip.

I recommend reading the EMT's statement:

http://static.ktul.com/documents/emtstatement_0509.pdf


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## Chubby (Jun 13, 2009)

brogers said:


> The video makes it crystal clear that *he is an asshole on a power trip.*


Looks like you have a grudge against police officer. The police officer just wanted to talk to the driver of the van, but the other EMT tried stoped the police officer from talking to the driver. Why? All this problem was started by the man who stoped the police from talking to the driver. He should be locked in.


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## Yanick (Jun 13, 2009)

chobby192 said:


> Looks like you have a grudge against police officer. The police officer just wanted to talk to the driver of the van, but the other EMT tried stoped the police officer from talking to the driver. Why? All this problem was started by the man who stoped the police from talking to the driver. He should be locked in.



I sincerely hope you're joking.


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## PainandGain (Jun 13, 2009)

brogers said:


> Video Page 2009 - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |
> 
> YouTube - Oklahoma Highway Patrol fight with EMT
> 
> ...



THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS INCIDENT.


God you people are foolish. You take your emotions from things completely irrelevant and use it as a reason to ream this cop in the original video.

He probably should have just turned her around and cuffed her right when he said she was going to be arrested /END STORY.


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## Will Brink (Jun 13, 2009)

PainandGain said:


> He probably should have just turned her around and cuffed her right when he said she was going to be arrested /END STORY.



He tries to and she pulls away. Watch the full vid. People are idiots.


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## PainandGain (Jun 13, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> He tries to and she pulls away. Watch the full vid. People are idiots.



Oh I did...Im not like some of the idiots here who just argue for the sake of it.
I think as soon as she walked away he could have restrained her by grabbing her around the shoulders and pushing her against the truck and slap them on without doing more than bruising her maybe.

Then again, I have never put someone in handcuffs, so maybe it would not have been that easy. I'm not going to make that judgement call because i'm NOT A POLICE OFFICER, therefore I wouldnt know.


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## maniclion (Jun 13, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> Well said. An appalling incident all around.  I just don't like people ignoring her roll in it.



She was being ornery and fussy, but had not threatened him.

Old people can get like this, especially the ones who've had a stroke or have alzheimers or some just suffer from dementia.  We have a lot of elderly here in Hawaii.  The cops I used to be around everyday had to deal with them all the time.  One time a lost old man came strolling onto our parking lot and proceeded to walk behind the building.  My boss told him he couldn't go back there, he yelled "I live here god dammit!" and kept walking back there so the 2 guys who wash the cars back there stood in front of the gate and begged him not to go back there, it was very slippery and he could be hurt.  He started kicking at them and tried to punch them.  Luckily a couple of the officers had just pulled up for their break and jogged over to help.  They asked him to calm down and he turned and tried kicking and punching at them.  Scotty who is about 6'3 solid built Hawaiian guy just advanced toward him, took a couple weak hits to his chest and then wrapped his arms around the old man in a bear hug.  He then said in a calm voice "Calm down Uncle and we will try to help you, be aloha uncle."  The old man stopped and then Scotty let him go and asked him to walk over to some chairs.  They sat down and talked to him and called to ask if any calls had reported an old man missing, the mans daughter had actually just called it in.  She came and picked him up, he'd walked out of the house and she'd been looking all over for him.  He had been suffering from dementia for quite a while.  But they deal with people like that all the time, they may even appear to be a normal old person but something is misfiring in their head so they aren't aware that they are acting strange.


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## Little Wing (Jun 13, 2009)

here some people with dementia have wandered away from their homes or care facilities and froze to death in the winters. a man with a bully mentality has NO business being a cop even on his best day. it makes him COMPLETELY unsuitable for the job and i believe the guy in this vid is exactly that.


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## PainandGain (Jun 13, 2009)

I think if she had a case that bad of dementia or alzheimers she wouldn't be driving in the first place. This point is moot.


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## Little Wing (Jun 13, 2009)

i don't think she had dementia she was just a crabby old bitch. i bet when she was younger if you pissed her off she'd hit you. seriously what old lady is that confrontational? she escalated the situation. n sorry but no ageism here old people can be assholes even when in complete control of all their faculties. but the cop is supposed to be above the behavior he displayed. it's like if an angry little kid tries to stand up to you you don't bite, you handle them like an angry little kid having a bad day not a felon with a warrant out.


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## Chubby (Jun 13, 2009)

PainandGain said:


> Oh I did...Im not like some of the idiots here who just argue for the sake of it.
> I think *as soon as she walked away he could have restrained her by grabbing her around the shoulders and pushing her against the truck and slap them on without doing more than bruising her maybe*.


Then media is going to say that the police officer physically assualted a 72 years old woman. Besides, I think using taser is better than above idea. Old people have very fragile body. If hand-cuff was used, it might tear her skin or break her bone if tried to resist. I have personally witness how fragile their bodies are. I once grabbed a hand of an old patient to stop him from pulling his IV out at hospital. Later when I let his hand go, I noticed that there was my finger mark on his hand and his hand was bleeding from torn skin.


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## maxpro2 (Jun 13, 2009)

chobby192 said:


> Besides, I think using taser is better than above idea. Old people have very fragile body. If hand-cuff was used, it might tear her skin or break her bone if tried to resist.



Are you serious? The Taser completely interferes with muscle control, causing people to fall down. A fall like that could cause an elderly person a very serious injury and could even be fatal. The Taser could have even caused cardiac arrest.


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## maniclion (Jun 13, 2009)

PainandGain said:


> I think if she had a case that bad of dementia or alzheimers she wouldn't be driving in the first place. This point is moot.



They do drive, just like a drunk shouldn't be driving but they still do.  Some may be normal until some kind of outside stress sets off the dementia, getting pulled over by a cop is a pretty tense situation.  The 2 times I got pulled over I was nervous.  

    Here is a very recent scenario.  Just a few days ago one of my GF's co-workers was driving behind a car going super slow in the far left lane in one of the tunnels through the mountains.  She was at least 3 car length's behind.....all the cars behind her were switching to the other lane and zipping by.  With her kids in the car she decided to just stay behind him and not try to jump into the other lane because cars were doing 60-70 and they were doing 35.  Right before a curve in the road the slow car came to a screeching stop, an elderly man got out and came storming back to her car.  He started beating on her driver side window and yelling.  Cars were zooming by in the other lane so fast her car shook everytime they passed.  Her kids were terrified so she called the cops, the dispatcher said "what can we do, by the time a car gets out there it will probably be over, take the mans license plate down and when you get home make a report."  So she does that.  She knew the cop who came to do the report and yesterday he calls her and tells her the old man who's just starting to show signs of alzheimers and his wife who was in the car with him has it worse, he had done the same thing to another car the same day on the same road.  He had no drivers license but they still drove.  The cop had gotten in touch with the old mans son-in-law and he promised they had taken the keys away and were in the process of selling the car, the old man must've hidden the spare keys.  They do stuff like this, their judgement is starting to go as if they are going backwards through mental development, they first act like rebellious teens, then children and finally babies.  I've seen it first hand having taken care of my GF's grandpa and his wife both in their 80's.


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## maxpro2 (Jun 16, 2009)




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## min0 lee (Jun 17, 2009)

Yanick said:


> I sincerely hope you're joking.


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## maniclion (Jun 18, 2009)

YouTube Video


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## min0 lee (Jun 18, 2009)

maniclion said:


> YouTube Video


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