# Everything but the Kitchen Sink



## Tough Old Man (Jul 13, 2006)

*These blood results suck*

Ok after a 8 week bulk of 500 grams of protein a day which included 2.5 lbs of beef, 6 whole eggs and high doses of Test and Eq my blood test results are back. 

1st cholestrol. 

6 months ago total cholestrol was 131

Today. 
Total Cholestrol 313
Ldl 245
HDl 35

This was way out of range also. 

Red blood cells. Normal 4.20-5.80........Mine 6.2
Hemoglobin...Normal 13.2-17.1.....mine 20.1
Hematocrit...Normal ..38.5-50...mine 60.4


All other test were normal. liver, bun, prostrate.

Ok lets rock. What about the above ranges for RBC, Hemoglobin and Hematocrit. Is this normal with high anabolic use? 

I'm not worried about the Cholestrol as I'm on a cut and will get that back down by the end of this month. The other results are what bothers me.


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## musclepump (Jul 13, 2006)

I think EQ has a natural affinity to greatly increase RBC's


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## pengers84 (Jul 13, 2006)

Hows your blood pressure?  I imagine it would be elevated quite a bit


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 13, 2006)

pengers84 said:
			
		

> Hows your blood pressure? I imagine it would be elevated quite a bit


110 / 68 today....So perfect


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## Mudge (Jul 13, 2006)

Your BP is pretty amazing given everything else. RBC is always going to be high, thats what gear is good at. Anadrol and EQ probably better than anything else.


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## Trouble (Jul 13, 2006)

Mudge is correct, some (not all) steroid analogs will cause a rise in hemoglobin and hemocrit, as well as elevated cholesterol, high LDL subnormal HDL.

However, we mustn't jump to conclusions.  Had you not used any steroid, and you come into my office with those values, I would have told you that you are well on the way to both type II diabetes and severe cardiovascular disease.

Hands down, the diet you consumed was foolish, as the rich sources of saturated fats you consumed without thought to their aggregate effect on liver, has induced one whale of a dysfunctional cascade.  And those saturated fats, sir, they signal for insulin insensitivity and also for severe disruption of both vitamin A and vitamin D pathways.  

So you can chalk up the results to up to both diet and gear use.  If you drank alcohol, it was injury added to insult for your liver.


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 13, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> Mudge is correct, some (not all) steroid analogs will cause a rise in hemoglobin and hemocrit, as well as elevated cholesterol, high LDL subnormal HDL.
> 
> However, we mustn't jump to conclusions. Had you not used any steroid, and you come into my office with those values, I would have told you that you are well on the way to both type II diabetes and severe cardiovascular disease.
> 
> ...


Girl I was hoping you a would respond. 5 months ago while on my last cycle I had a (shit can't remember what it's called) where they go up through an arterie and into the heart with a camera looking at the arteries and the heart. My Cardiologist said I had the heart of a 20 yr old. He was shocked as he knows I'm a smoker and do heavy gear. 

I want to thank You and Mudge and all that responded. Yes Trouble i figured that the 2.5 lbs of ground beef @ 10% fat plus they eggs was going to mess with my cholestrol. I'll point out to you that back in the 70's I ate over 3 doz eggs and over 4 lbs a beef a day and my cholestrol was good. Maybe my age has taken its toll. 

Shit I can't forget the beer I was drinking last month also. MAN ARE YOU HIDING IN MY HOUSE SOMEWHERE.


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## Mudge (Jul 13, 2006)

Mike Matarazzo was somewhere in the early to mid 30s when he was around 95% blockage in all major arteries. He was known for eating 5 pound of beef per day in the offseason, for years.


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 14, 2006)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Mike Matarazzo was somewhere in the early to mid 30s when he was around 95% blockage in all major arteries. He was known for eating 5 pound of beef per day in the offseason, for years.


Well it's obvious if I plan to stay around this planet that I'm going to have to change my way of thinking when it comes to high protein via BEEF & EGGS.


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## Trouble (Jul 14, 2006)

Now why would they do an invasive angiogram if you had no blockage?

What symptoms prompted the use of this diagnostic, months ago?


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 14, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> Now why would they do an invasive angiogram if you had no blockage?
> 
> What symptoms prompted the use of this diagnostic, months ago?


Where do I start. On my dad's side. His Mother and Father died in the 70's of first heart attacks. My dad had three older brothers. The one just a yr older then him died at the age of 39 from 1st heart attack. His oldest brother died at the age of 49 from 1st heart attack. My dad died at the age of 64 1st heart attack. His brother who died at 39, his son my cousin died 2 yrs ago from 1st heart attack. He was 44. 

So you can see that Heart attacks run in the family and seem to be very deadly. 

So since I have had a cardiologist and seeing one since I turned 50, I kept him informed of the Steroid use. He didn't liike what one of the test showed and it wasn't clear whether I had a infarac (not sure of the spelling) or if my large rib cage was causing the above result. So the only way to find out was having the Cardiac Catheterization done.


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## redflash (Jul 14, 2006)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> Well it's obvious if I plan to stay around this planet that I'm going to have to change my way of thinking when it comes to high protein via BEEF & EGGS.



*Protein*: TOM, I'm a whippet compared with you so you can ignore this if you want to, but I thought that your (any) body could only absorb around 30mg of protein at a time and the rest would just get converted and stored as fat.  That's a function/limitation of your internals not something that changes the bigger you get.

Now most of us wouldn't want to take risks on protein intake so as not to waste any of our hard-earned efforts in the gym, so let's call it 40mg per meal times six meals and that still totals only 240mg protein per day.  So not only are you getting all the fatty cals from the fat in the meat/eggs, you're also getting a whole load more converted to fat from excess protein cals you just can't absorb.  I'd go for lean meats like chicken or turkey, white fish, and whey-based protein drinks to top up.

Happy to stand corrected if anyone has any evidence to the contrary.

*BP*: I remember you mentioning BP meds in a previous post.  Mudge says he's amazed by your BP... is that controlled by meds or natural?  It just appears to be out of line with the other info presented.  Not a cricitism of the meds if they're doing such a god job!

All the best,

Flash


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 14, 2006)

redflash said:
			
		

> *Protein*: TOM, I'm a whippet compared with you so you can ignore this if you want to, but I thought that your (any) body could only absorb around 30mg of protein at a time and the rest would just get converted and stored as fat. That's a function/limitation of your internals not something that changes the bigger you get.
> 
> Now most of us wouldn't want to take risks on protein intake so as not to waste any of our hard-earned efforts in the gym, so let's call it 40mg per meal times six meals and that still totals only 240mg protein per day. So not only are you getting all the fatty cals from the fat in the meat/eggs, you're also getting a whole load more converted to fat from excess protein cals you just can't absorb. I'd go for lean meats like chicken or turkey, white fish, and whey-based protein drinks to top up.
> 
> ...


On the BP. My BP while on gear at it's highest was running 140's / mid 90's. Off gear 120 / high 70's. So about 4 months ago I decided while I'm cycling to take a med for the BP. I cycle for 8 weeks on and 3 weeks off. During those three weeks I wean myself off them slowly. Seem to work.

As for the Protein, Trouble can best answer that question. She's a expert on this.


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## Mudge (Jul 14, 2006)

redflash said:
			
		

> *Protein*: TOM, I'm a whippet compared with you so you can ignore this if you want to, but I thought that your (any) body could only absorb around 30mg of protein at a time and the rest would just get converted and stored as fat.  That's a function/limitation of your internals not something that changes the bigger you get.



Does a 300 pound person absorb more nutrients and store them better as fat than someone who is 150 pounds eating the same quanity of calories? Most damn likely, which is why 150 pounders who eat tons dont gain weight easily at all yet stay ripped.

Dont tell me Jay Cutler has 25% bodyfat because he takes in 700 grams of protein a day, because I sure dont see 25% bodyfat on him. So Kevin Levronne wasted all that time eating 5 pounds of fish a day, it just made him fat. Interesting that he didn't look fat on stage.

A person who has grown does not have different nutritional requirements? So I can eat like a 5 year old boy and still get huge like Markus Ruhl?


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## Mudge (Jul 14, 2006)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> Well it's obvious if I plan to stay around this planet that I'm going to have to change my way of thinking when it comes to high protein via BEEF & EGGS.



Beef also = free radicals. If you BBQ a lot, supposedly the fats that drip onto the coals creates carcinogens, which is why BBQing is not supposed to be that frequent, if coal is used.


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## pengers84 (Jul 15, 2006)

A person who has grown does not have different nutritional requirements? So I can eat like a 5 year old boy and still get huge like Markus Ruhl?[/QUOTE]

Im not sure but I think what flash is suggesting is that bigger people should eat more meals not bigger ones.  

I remember watching an interview of a gold medal winning shot putter at the sydney olympics, who was like 350lbs who reported eating 12 meals a day.


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 15, 2006)

pengers84 said:
			
		

> A person who has grown does not have different nutritional requirements? So I can eat like a 5 year old boy and still get huge like Markus Ruhl?


 
Im not sure but I think what flash is suggesting is that bigger people should eat more meals not bigger ones. 

I remember watching an interview of a gold medal winning shot putter at the sydney olympics, who was like 350lbs who reported eating 12 meals a day.[/quote]This is true of all


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## Trouble (Jul 15, 2006)

It's the charring of the meat itself in grilling that causes the formation of highly reactive compounds that are attributed to potentially causing cancer.

On the absorption of protein:

Its a rate effect.  How fast you can digest and absorb protein versus its movement through the alimentary canal.

You can reduce volume and feed more frequently, as TOM mentions;

Or you can slow down gastric emptying and absorption. and thus gut efficiency well above typical;

Or you can condition the gut to actively increase the rate of uptake (by a mechanism not well understood within the medical community but common to those of working in environmental microbiology).

You can use all three to effectively quadruple or quintuple that 30-50g mythic protein load maximum.  Thats 200+ grams per meal possible.

(its) The recipe is molecular magic.   My forte.


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## Mudge (Jul 15, 2006)

pengers84 said:
			
		

> I remember watching an interview of a gold medal winning shot putter at the sydney olympics, who was like 350lbs who reported eating 12 meals a day.



Ok so that brings us to 360 grams of protein, far less than most large bodybuilders take in - and less than I take in. Jay Cutler takes in as many as 16 meals a day, depending on what area of his diet cycle he is in. He is still taking in more than 30 grams of protein per meal.

For at least one season in her competitive career, Cory Everson was eating 3 meals a day right up into contest time.


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 15, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> It's the charring of the meat itself in grilling that causes the formation of highly reactive compounds that are attributed to potentially causing cancer.
> 
> On the absorption of protein:
> 
> ...


*Figured you would be the better one to answer the protein question. *

*Mudge does Jay actually eat that many meals sometimes. Damn that's eating all day and night long. *


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## Mudge (Jul 16, 2006)

He sleeps in 3 shifts, 2 hours each. He gets up to eat, then goes back to sleep. This is pre-contest, yes he eats that many times.


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## pengers84 (Jul 16, 2006)

Redflash- Just out of interest where did you get the 30g protein theory from?

Mudge- I agree with you it does seem too low.  Does Jay Cutler have a job?  How the hell does he fit in 16 meals a day?  If he slept 8hrs that would mean he would eat every hour. How many meals do you eat a day? 

Trouble- How do you slow down gastric emptying and absorption?  How can you condition the gut to actively increase the rate of uptake (by a mechanism not well understood within the medical community but common to those of working in environmental microbiology)?


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## pengers84 (Jul 16, 2006)

Sorry missed that last post mudge.  Bloody hell that would suck sleeping for 2hrs at a time


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## redflash (Jul 16, 2006)

pengers84 said:
			
		

> Redflash- Just out of interest where did you get the 30g protein theory from? QUOTE]
> 
> Goes back to twenty years ago... maybe one of those myths like tapering your cycles which has now been superseded by real experience.


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## redflash (Jul 16, 2006)

Mudge said:
			
		

> So I can eat like a 5 year old boy and still get huge like Markus Ruhl?



No need to get silly Mudge.  If Trouble is correct and we can do stuff to absorb more then I'm pleased to hear that, but I'm guessing that lots of folk are just eating without taking any special measures.  TOM didn't mention he was doing anything special to slow down the passage of his beef and eggs or any other magic trick.

I'm struggling with the math(s) on your Jay Cutler bodyfat point.

I'm not saying that Kevin Lavronne wasted his time eating five pounds of fish a day - as a protein source that's one of the best.  What would that give him - 500g of protein?  Sure beats five pounds of beef!

Of course a 250lb guy is going to need to eat many more calories than a 180lb guy just to maintain never mind to build, but cals don't equal protein.

What I was saying was that if that 30g per meal figure was ever true then juat growing your biceps, quads etc wasn't going to make your gut work any different and I think that stands.  Clearly, what is being questioned here is whether the 30g was ever valid.

The other rule of thumb from twenty years ago was a gram of protein per day for every pound of bodyweight - 180 g per day for a 180lb guy, 250g for a 250pounder.  Surely there must be someone else out there who remembers this stuff of old... and maybe can point me to the day it was debunked as a myth.

TROUBLE: if a guy is going to eat say six times a day, how many grams of protein should he be aiming to consume per meal?  What difference should there be between a 180lb guy and a 250lb one in this respect, if any?

Flash


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 16, 2006)

redflash said:
			
		

> No need to get silly Mudge. If Trouble is correct and we can do stuff to absorb more then I'm pleased to hear that, but I'm guessing that lots of folk are just eating without taking any special measures. TOM didn't mention he was doing anything special to slow down the passage of his beef and eggs or any other magic trick.Flash


Bro this is something that i built up over time. I just didn't start eating 500 grams of protein. Now I have been in the 400-500 protein range for over 2 yrs. The only time I give myself a break is when I'm crusing for 7 days.  Then I lower my protein intake to around 350 grams to give myself a break. I'm doing this right now

But in the late 70's and early 80's I was eating 10,000 calories a day and I packed away the protein. This is how I went from bodyweight of 194 to 341 lbs. I did put 6" on the waist, but also added close to 18" on the chest and 8" on the arms.


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## Trouble (Jul 16, 2006)

The problem isn't the beef and eggs per se.  Its how the chickens and cattle are fed and kept.  If they are heavily confined indoors or in a shed or corral and allowed no free ranging movement (to condition muscle that regulates fat metabolism just as it does in humans) and are fed foods that subsititue poorly for omega-3 rich grass and seeds, then you find the same problems in these animals that you do in humans - cardiovascular disease and immune suppression, plus altered behavior - depression and aggression.

Having collected samples for many slaughterhouses and seen these animals hearts and internal organs, as well as seen their physical condition before slaughter, I can tell you that they are far from being lean and healthy.  

If beef and eggs are your whole protein source, and its enriched in saturated fats used to induce production efficiency, then you will pay a steep price yourself in health if its your primary source of protein in diet. 

As far as delayed gastric emptying, fatty foods and whole food proteins must be broken down - they ARE naturally delayed, unless there is an unusual CNS trigger for gastric emptying.


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## Mudge (Jul 16, 2006)

pengers84 said:
			
		

> Does Jay Cutler have a job?  How the hell does he fit in 16 meals a day?



Jay Cutler's job is being huge and ripped.  I would go insane trying to sleep like that, if I wake up, like I did this morning at 3:30 - I could not go back to sleep until 3 hours later. So I went out for a walk and did some misc things.

I try to get in 5 meals a day, 6 is where it starts getting extremely difficult. When I used to have a deskjob I could eat almost anytime I wanted, which was very easy. Now I travel constantly, so I have to eat my food cold, and when I actually have time to eat is mixed. I am very often driving, eating, and talking on a cell phone while taking notes at the same time.


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## Mudge (Jul 16, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> Having collected samples for many slaughterhouses and seen these animals hearts and internal organs, as well as seen their physical condition before slaughter, I can tell you that they are far from being lean and healthy.



I heard that it started with veal producing cattle. It was found that found that if kept immobile, and slaughtered them while young, they produced a more pleasant veal.


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 16, 2006)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Jay Cutler's job is being huge and ripped.  I would go insane trying to sleep like that, if I wake up, like I did this morning at 3:30 - I could not go back to sleep until 3 hours later. So I went out for a walk and did some misc things.
> 
> I try to get in 5 meals a day, 6 is where it starts getting extremely difficult. When I used to have a deskjob I could eat almost anytime I wanted, which was very easy. Now I travel constantly, so I have to eat my food cold, and when I actually have time to eat is mixed. I am very often driving, eating, and talking on a cell phone while taking notes at the same time.


So your the ass that was eating, talking on the cell phone and cut me off and then sped away. Cool a folsom prison hanging is about to enter your world.


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## Mudge (Jul 16, 2006)

I rarely change lanes, only when I have to.


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## Trouble (Jul 16, 2006)

No, it started when they found that cattle produced more milk (beyond the hormone induction methods used) when they fed cows silage - fermented corn husks.  It shortens the digestion time, is incredibly cheap (food that is a waste product is VERY cheap), can be stored on-site easily, and the cattle like it.

Problem: long chain fatty acids in this feed type are the wrong kind for both cattle and human health.  Lack of exercise decreases fatty acid desaturase activity in liver and fat cells, and so the these animals become enriched in long chain saturated fatty acids (bad news for all of us).  Plus, that fat stores hormones, which we get in our food, and that has repercussions on our own production.  Plus, the milk produced under silage feeding has different natural growth hormone qualities than organic grass fed dairy cattle.  Don't think its been evaluated for whey quality, but I imagine there might be a carry-over effect (caveat emptor: my considered opinion).

Now lookie here, dairy farmers are also in a pinch.  They have been subsidized for a long time, the base cost of their product has been artifically kept low.  Its the processors and distributors that have made out like bandits in the pastdecades.  Very little of that considerable profit margin feeds back to the producers.

Pardon my french, but something is very fucked here.  As in crooked.  Same with beef.  The nations beef supply is more or less cornered and tightly controlled by some 7-10 national processing conglomerates  

Animal producers are also under pressure to curtail environmental burdens from these operations; land prices also play a role in the pressure to use CAFO methods (confined area feedlot operations).

Got to see all three sides of the coin here.


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## Trouble (Jul 16, 2006)

Mudge said:
			
		

> if I wake up, like I did this morning at 3:30 - I could not go back to sleep until 3 hours later. So I went out for a walk and did some misc things.
> 
> Now I travel constantly, so I have to eat my food cold, and when I actually have time to eat is mixed. I am very often driving, eating, and talking on a cell phone while taking notes at the same time.



You cannot possibly drive, eat, and talk on a cell phone at the same time safely.  Moreover, this is a stressful situation.  If you job "requires" this type of accomodation, you need to talk over the lack of prior planning on your company's part that is putting your life in danger.  Learn to take a few minutes before you set out, to gather what information you need for your next hot job task, and converse when your mind is one item - you job, and not four (driving, eating, taking notes and conversing).

IF you are caught in an accident under these conditions and disabled or worse, do you really think your company is going to give two shits about you??  You sir, are an expendible commodity.  You allow the company to put you in this situation.

This has been yet another public safety message 

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Mudge, consider stocking RTDs for another purpose.

When you wake up in the very early am as you did this morning, drink water, make yourself some ginger decafinated green tea (Liptons brand, Wally World carries it) and suck down an RTD, then go back to bed.  Use an eyemask and ear plugs if necessary, and you can pop a few valarian as well to relax or use belly breathing to ease muscle tension that always accompanies these extremely early cortisol rise patterns.  

These actions will stave off blood sugar crash until you wake up just before 7am, when you must get up and eat, and start your day (to also regularize your diurnal rhythms).  This pattern should resolve itself in time if its treated and the underlying causes (primarly diet, sleep and stress) are resolved.  Its a pattern of fast-peaking cortisol, middle stages of adrenal exhaustion from lack of regularized sleep habits.  It affects your mid afternoon blood sugar as a result, causing the crash that makes you feel tired in the late afternoon and reduces impetus to exercise in the early evening, which delays exertion until later in the evening, which causes you to get to bed late, which futher decouples melatonin production at nightime and causes excessive cortisol rise.

And this results in eventual adrenal exhaustion (about age 33-35).  Once at that late stage in adrenal and thyroid dysfunction, rehab is MUCH more difficult and protracted, because both organs atrophy.  Oh my.


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## Mudge (Jul 16, 2006)

Earplugs dont stop the voices in my head, and Pedro stole my Zoro mask last Halloween.


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## Trouble (Jul 16, 2006)

Internal dialog: unplug the voices.  See my sig line elsewhere. Did you sleuth out the author of that quotation?  I would be curious to hear of your views on this modern philosopher.

Nighted vision: Plumb forgot.  Superman doesn't need a mask.


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## Pirate! (Jul 16, 2006)

This is one of the best discussions in The Anabolic Zone in a long time.

There have been a handful of other ones that Trouble has brought some great insight into.

Instead of focusing on quick fixes like throw in some of this drug, we are looking at what really causes the problems and addressing them in more holistic ways. I love it.


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## Trouble (Jul 16, 2006)

*laughing uproariously*  This thread has everything but the kitchen sink in it!

I'm going to have to talk about the quiet revolution currently ongoing in modern biochemistry and molecular biology, with respect to their medical applications.

I'm carrying it forward into the public health sector; the primary vehicle: strength training.

Why?  Very simply put:  muscle mass controls what we call homeostasis.  This is a very modern viewpoint, less than 4 yrs old.  The science is rock-solid.  It cannot be ignored for long.  Its absolutely essential to discuss this incredible revolution in the modern biomedical sciences. 

Why?  Because the foundation of this homeostatic control rests in lifestyle factors associated with oxidative stress and dietary lipids and related phytochemicals.

Not unexpectedly, its also the key to aging and disease.  This sir, is where my voice is destined to become the wind of change.  In less than a decade, this information will be commonplace on 5 continents.  It will revolutionize how we look at disease, at lifetyle and diet.  It will affect the economic and physical pattern of daily living for billions in decades to come.

Ach aye, we can discuss these patterns of cause and effect from an enlightened mechanistic viewpoint, if you wish.  

Well now, I guess you do get the _kitchen sink_.


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## Trouble (Jul 16, 2006)

*Heck Yeah!  I FIGURED IT OUT*

OK so this has been bugging for a couple days.

How could he be eating this fatty food shit and have a clear ticker??

I got it.

TOM, what is your dosage of fish oil that you're consuming daily?  Whats your source of fish oil?


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## Mudge (Jul 16, 2006)

He has been using the same Costco fish oil that I get, although I dont know his dose.


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 17, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> OK so this has been bugging for a couple days.
> 
> How could he be eating this fatty food shit and have a clear ticker??
> 
> ...


5-10 caps a day of Costco fish oil concentrate just like Mudge said. 

Hey last year trouble I only ate boneless breast chicken with all the fat removed for 9 straight months. Never touched an egg yoke, piece of pork or any type of beef. My totaol cholestrol was 131 with the HDL being 59. 

It is my understanding that total cholestrol this low can reverse heart disease. 

Now how many cookies do you need baked for a good diet plan? Answer this and the kitchen will contain everything including the sink.

If you can't find the address to my PM Box, dial 411 and get it from information.  


PT


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 17, 2006)

Mudge said:
			
		

> He has been using the same Costco fish oil that I get, although I dont know his dose.


This is correct and is why mudge and myself are two perfect specimens of human beings.


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## Mudge (Jul 17, 2006)




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## Trouble (Jul 17, 2006)

I'll reply to your PM, TOM.  I went dumpster diving yesterday afternoon and evening, reading up on EPA.

EPA solubilizes cholesterol aggregrates and allows them to be excreted in bile. It also bind to, and controls (along with bile acids themselves) the nuclear receptors that control recycle of cholesterol and its makeup biosynthesis in liver.  Your body is parsimonious with respect to cholesterol and bile, it likes to reclaim and reuse it whenever possible. 

Therefore, when you were eating very cleanly and using that fish oil with sufficient EPA, you reaped the benefits of its cardiovascular AND muscle hypertrophy enhancing effects, TOM.

Turns out that EPA and AA (arachidonic acid) controls muscle cell turnover, keeps cells around longer while encouraging new cell formation.  They work in tandem, as both an anbolic agent and an anti-catabolic.  In addition, EPA has been show to repair insulin insensitivity where it causes the most damage, in the muscle uptake and breakdown of fatty acids.  Fatty acids are released in the hyperinsulinemic state, but if you can't break them down for energy, they end of binding to, and shutting off, anabolic processes in muscle cells, and changing the way liver and fat cells use and store glucose.

So yeah, I think you're correct, you can reverse a lot of cardiac damage, or at least avoid it, with EPA.  More is not better, however, and that 8-10 gram dose seem to work pretty good for the average body mass.  More is only warranted for higher body mass if you're > 200 lbs.

If I am correct, then I need our other mod, dg, to pay close attention to this post - its for him, as I promised to find a way to remodel fibrinated vascular tissue.  I think this might be the way to do it, when coupled with very clean diet (low sat fat and low glycemic laod carbs plus lotsa vegetable and barley/oat/rice bran fiber), NAC and glutathione generating whey, plus exercise, including cardio and stress control, good sleep hygiene.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cost is always an issue when we are looking to stretch our supplement dollar.

Lets do the numbers for value vs EPA load, shall we?

Note: doses for EPA or DHA are for two capsules per day. 

1. Cheapest: l Kirkland brand from Costco. But each only has 150 mg EPA per capsule, so that you'll need 7 capsules per day to get sufficient dose.  Note that with this low concentration, it implies something about its source dna form (the unchanged omega-3 acids).

2. Fewest pills:  Vitacost (EPA 500, DHA 100 per capsule) ; $.33 per day for 2 capsule per day.  Note the EPA concentration.  Very desirable.

3. Cost cutter with 4 pills per day, same EPA dose: Swanson Vitamins. 

Here's the math:  

1. Costco approach using the Kirkland brand: 300 capsules for $9 dollars. 

    $9 dollars/300 capsules x 7 capsules/day = $.21 per day. 

2. Vitacost version, $13.59 for 90 capsules, plus shipping.  Assuming you're buying 4 bottles at a time:

       4 bottles: 13.59 x 4 = $54.36, plus $5 shipping, total cost, $59.36.  

         4 bottles  x 90 capsules per bottle = 360 capsules; if you're using 2 per day, that???s 180 days worth.

        $59.36/180 days = $.33 per day.  

Quality may be slightly higher in this case, as this product is enriched in EPA (our goal).  Now, the only way you can enrich in EPA is to derivatize it, and then distill it.  You keep that in mind, one day I will tell you why its key here.

3. Swanson Vitamins: 

        1.2 g EPA = 4 pills.   Swanson offers a flat-shipping rate of $4.95.

        Cost per daily dose: 

        1  bottle of Super EPA with shipping, 1.2g EPA= $.4064

        2  bottles of Super EPA with shipping, 1.2g EPA= $.3076

        3 bottles of Super EPA with shipping, 1.2g EPA= $.2744

        4  bottles of Super EPA with shipping, 1.2g EPA= $.258

Cost figures current as of 05/06, courtesey of this [ur;=http://www.psycheducation.org/depression/meds/fishoilscraps.htm]site[/url]


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 18, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> I'll reply to your PM, TOM. I went dumpster diving yesterday afternoon and evening, reading up on EPA.
> 
> EPA solubilizes cholesterol aggregrates and allows them to be excreted in bile. It also bind to, and controls (along with bile acids themselves) the nuclear receptors that control recycle of cholesterol and its makeup biosynthesis in liver. Your body is parsimonious with respect to cholesterol and bile, it likes to reclaim and reuse it whenever possible.
> 
> ...


LOL , you drive me crazy. I love crazy women, what you doing for the next 30 yrs. 

On a serious note, I love the time you put into things. This is becoming a great thread and you have just about put everything in english where most of us can understand it. About time girl. 

Now on to something else. Since I'm going to continue with my use of ananbolic steroids, I decided to change my diet around. Piss on those high protein, low carb, high fat diets to cut with. I have lowered my fats to around 46 per day which includes 5 of the fish caps and upped my carb intake. After reading your above post, I will up my fish cap total to 10 because I'm 6" and 248 lbs. 

Trouble is the BOMB.


----------



## Trouble (Jul 18, 2006)

You and I will discuss diet and anabolics use elsewhere.  The trick is to improve fatty acid metabolism that no longer funcitons as it once did, a legacy of these hypercaloric diets and their macro imbalances.  Once you dial in anti-oxidant protection and energetics (from glycogen, phosphocreatine, and aerobic glucose /fatty acid sources), with the proper anabolic signals, I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the results.

*laughing quietly*

Has it occured to you, TOM, that you might be getting used to my writing style?


----------



## Tough Old Man (Jul 18, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> You and I will discuss diet and anabolics use elsewhere. The trick is to improve fatty acid metabolism that no longer funcitons as it once did, a legacy of these hypercaloric diets and their macro imbalances. Once you dial in anti-oxidant protection and energetics (from glycogen, phosphocreatine, and aerobic glucose /fatty acid sources), with the proper anabolic signals, I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the results.
> 
> *laughing quietly*
> 
> Has it occured to you, TOM, that you might be getting used to my writing style?


I think it's you that I'm getting use to. I admit I thought I was a fairly an intelligent person until I ran into you. Now I skip part of what you say and just pick out the important parts that I understand. 

I do have a B.S from Cal Poly in Pomona, Ca (Law & Police science) but have been out of school for 32 yrs. I think I forgot everything when I moved to Baja, Ca. Mexico. So make sure you take it easy on old Toughy so he doesn't have a nervous breakdown or something worst.


----------



## Tough Old Man (Jul 18, 2006)

Ok back on Subj. Lets see if anyone can answer this question. If Equipoise raises your Red Blood cell count effecting your Hemoblobin and Hematocrit, is there any natural supplements you can take to help keep them in range? Can a good diet possibly get the above back in normal range?



TOM


----------



## ZECH (Jul 18, 2006)

I would say no................


----------



## ZECH (Jul 18, 2006)

T, I hear you calling my name in this thread.....................lol!


----------



## Tough Old Man (Jul 18, 2006)

dg806 said:
			
		

> T, I hear you calling my name in this thread.....................lol!


 Yes and be carefull "D" or you'll end up in the "TWILIGHT ZONE"


----------



## ZECH (Jul 18, 2006)

I think I'm already there................


----------



## Trouble (Jul 18, 2006)

Well, TOM, you ask a damn good question.

First off, let me point out that I have a client on another forum who has this problem, and he hasn't been using steroid analogs (AAS).  That suggests that the nuclear receptors are being manipulated by lifestyle associated factors:

diet and stress

This person has GERD as well.  He has hypersensitive CNS response to stress and certain dietary macros that also induce a strong CNS response (acid and bile release) in gut.

I'll use this post as a place holder, do some digging and thinking (I know the obvious answer, but I need to check on a detail or two first before I reply, as you do not dick around with blood volume and red blood cell count without potential consequences elsewhere).

---------------------------------------------------

Intelligence is relative. Mine is enhanced by circumstance and long years of knowledge acquisition.  I have met men who are far more intelligent and mentally gifted than myself.  A handful of Nobel prize winners; several who are considered gods within their respective fields of expertise.  I am humbled before the innate mental agility and reasoning capacity of these men; they are to me, as I am to you.

My forte is that of the lost art of generalism; it affords me an unusual ability to see nonlinear connections within patterns that are many degrees removed from one another.  Sometimes, its an intuitive jum, for which I find suportive data and theory corraboration.  Sometimes, it dumb luck and perceptive search patterns that allow me to stumble onto answers very quickly.


----------



## ZECH (Jul 18, 2006)

I knew she would not come up with just a "no" answer. The only way I could see it being done would be through giving blood or such, and obviously you can't do that often enough to help...............thus T's response.


----------



## Trouble (Jul 18, 2006)

No dg, the issue is a little more complex.  We have unintended activation of key nuclear receptors through either (a) bile acid activation or (b) steroid analog activation.  The key is to partially block those nuclear receptors by dietary or supplemental lipids, to reduce what amounts to red blood cell hyperplasia.

Like I said, its a tricky business; I'm buying a little time here, and I'm naturally cautious about how best to proceed.

My knee jerk reaction would be to instruct a client to cease and desist from use of steroid analogs, but thats not what I was asked to do.

The question then, is whether its possible to naturally hinder the binding action of AAS compounds to certain nuclear receptors on red blood cells (related to cell proliferation) without hindering their action elsewhere (else, what is the point of AAS use?).


----------



## Tough Old Man (Jul 18, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> No dg, the issue is a little more complex. We have unintended activation of key nuclear receptors through either (a) bile acid activation or (b) steroid analog activation. The key is to partially block those nuclear receptors by dietary or supplemental lipids, to reduce what amounts to red blood cell hyperplasia.
> 
> Like I said, its a tricky business; I'm buying a little time here, and I'm naturally cautious about how best to proceed.
> 
> ...


Holy shit, we have a winner here. Trouble is not only smart but has the ability to charm us with her wit. Go get um Girl and take all the time you need as we don't want you (dicking) us around with bullshit. 

Caution: the word (dicking) was used by Ms.Trouble in one of her above post. I've also seen her use words that required the "pardon my french" after.


PT


----------



## Trouble (Jul 18, 2006)

Ha!   My MotorCity roots show through in my colorful French diction.

_Beg Pardon_ if it oftends thee.

A technical oracle worth her salt does not bs or otherwise provaricate.  

Sagacity and veracity, never mendacity.


----------



## largepkg (Jul 18, 2006)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> Holy shit, we have a winner here. Trouble is not only smart but has the ability to charm us with her wit. Go get um Girl and take all the time you need as we don't want you (dicking) us around with bullshit.
> 
> Caution: the word (dicking) was used by Ms.Trouble in one of her above post. I've also seen her use words that required the "pardon my french" after.
> 
> ...




I just love reading her post and looking up all the _shit_ I don't understand. She's a teacher beyond just the knowledge she gives.


----------



## Pirate! (Jul 18, 2006)

*Let it Bleed*



			
				Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> Ok back on Subj. Lets see if anyone can answer this question. If Equipoise raises your Red Blood cell count effecting your Hemoblobin and Hematocrit, is there any natural supplements you can take to help keep them in range? Can a good diet possibly get the above back in normal range?
> 
> 
> 
> TOM


This is not standard protocol, but it will help lower Hemoglobin, Hematocrit and RBC fast: Donate blood. That's right. Find two separate organizations you can trust. Each will take a pint of blood. You need two places so that you can donate more frequently. They generally only let you donate one pint every 4 weeks or so. Now, if you do this in the states, they provide you the option of checking on your info sheet that there is some reason that the blood shouldn't be used (such as being on drugs). Nevertheless, they will draw the blood from you. Toss one pint every other week. Keep as hydrated as possible at all times. The amount of water in your blood will increase via plasma increase and your blood volume will quickly return to normal. This will force the levels of RBC, Hemoglobin and Hematocrit significantly lower. I doubt this is something that a modern health care provider would do, but bleeding has successfully been used for thousands of years to treat ailments that we are just now giving names--like high blood pressure. There are some obvious draw backs such as decreased endurance due to slower oxygen transport. From my experience, this is minor.

Trouble, feel free to rip me apart on this one. Approaching this situation with osmoality in mind and considering basic stoichiometry, it seems it should help achieve his goal, in theory. I am aware how conventional it is, though.


----------



## Pirate! (Jul 18, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> it affords me an unusual ability to see nonlinear connections within patterns that are many degrees removed from one another.


 I'd like to play you in chess sometime. We operate alike.


----------



## Trouble (Jul 18, 2006)

Can't condone the notion of giving blood within a window of 6 or more months of using steroids.  Bad karma.   Understand the rationale behind it, but no sir, we do not do this to innocents who would receive blood contaminated with steroids, just as we would not were we on various blood pressure or lipid control medications.

===========================================================

Good website for simple explanations of various hematology lab tests.

===========================================================

An increase or decrease in the RBC count usually causes a similar shift in the hemoglobin and hematocrit values.  So we'll use RBC as our primary symptom for reverse engineering prevention, not treatment.

The answer, as best I can see, for elevated RBCs rests in the exaggerated inflammation response induced by steroid use, and probably aggravated by diet (hypercaloric and enriched in either carbs or fats for energy). That diet brings up back to liver lipid issues, and thats liver function abnormalities associated with steroid interfering with a handful of nuclear receptors.

Basically, we're using liver specific natural lipids to protect these NR active sites from supraphysiological doses of steroid analogs from swamping these guys out (because of dietary imbalance, for instance).

I think I might talk to Matt P over at CNW into putting together a test batch to try out.


----------



## Pirate! (Jul 19, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> Can't condone the notion of giving blood within a window of 6 or more months of using steroids.  Bad karma.   Understand the rationale behind it, but no sir, we do not do this to innocents who would receive blood contaminated with steroids, just as we would not were we on various blood pressure or lipid control medications.


They don't actually give people your blood. They just dispose of it. You have an option to say that you don't feel your blood is fit for use. They will just draw it and dispose of it. I won't go into why this is, but that is how they do it. It isnt' something I really expect TOM to do.


----------



## Tough Old Man (Jul 19, 2006)

Pirate! said:
			
		

> They don't actually give people your blood. They just dispose of it. You have an option to say that you don't feel your blood is fit for use. They will just draw it and dispose of it. I won't go into why this is, but that is how they do it. It isnt' something I really expect TOM to do.


Exactly. I don't give blood, I take blood. I am the evil of darkness. My name is Count Dracula.

There is another solution. The past two times I had blood drawn, my RBC count was fine. The diffence between those two and this past one is I used Deca instead of Eq. I still did the same amount of gear pn all those cycles. 


PT


----------



## ZECH (Jul 19, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> The question then, is whether its possible to naturally hinder the binding action of AAS compounds to certain nuclear receptors on red blood cells (related to cell proliferation) without hindering their action elsewhere (else, what is the point of AAS use?).


I'm not sure I would want to risk the end results (sides) that you may experience doing that.


----------



## Trouble (Jul 19, 2006)

Pirate! said:
			
		

> They don't actually give people your blood. They just dispose of it. You have an option to say that you don't feel your blood is fit for use. They will just draw it and dispose of it. I won't go into why this is, but that is how they do it. It isnt' something I really expect TOM to do.



If you believe they "dispose" of it, I SHOULD play you in chess.

I also have a bridge to sell you...


----------



## ZECH (Jul 19, 2006)

So what is done with it?


----------



## Trouble (Jul 19, 2006)

Sold "under the counter", on the blood supply black market...

And there is one, rest assured.  There is a chronic shortage of blood in this country - it never recovered from its giant deficit back in 2001, and while (Bernadette) Healy was well intentioned in her efforts to promote the Red Cross internationally, she ticked off the wrong people (for profit blood supply interests) - who were more than happy to crucify her publically.


----------



## Tough Old Man (Jul 19, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> Sold "under the counter", on the blood supply black market...
> 
> And there is one, rest assured. There is a chronic shortage of blood in this country - it never recovered from its giant deficit back in 2001, and while (Bernadette) Healy was well intentioned in her efforts to promote the Red Cross internationally, she ticked off the wrong people (for profit blood supply interests) - who were more than happy to crucify her publically.


I also don't see them throwing out blood. I'm also not sure that blood can't be cleansed just like anything else. 

If they can't take the sewage water and turn it into drinking water, they ought to have the technology to remove some testosterone from blood. 

In a matter of fact, delute it by adding it to other good blood of the same type and give it to the elderly men. Then we can have a big senior citizren dance parade.......HRT


----------



## ZECH (Jul 19, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> Sold "under the counter", on the blood supply black market...


Do you think this makes it's way back into the public blood supply (Hospital use and such)?


----------



## Trouble (Jul 19, 2006)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> I also don't see them throwing out blood. I'm also not sure that blood can't be cleansed just like anything else.



Problem is, when you filter it to remove contaminant lipids, you also remove a whole lot of other materials you need in plasma.  And its aint like these compounds are just floating around, waiting to be grabbed.

Hell, you INJECT these steroid analogs in oil, right?  They're in the membranes of those cells in blood, the ones you need to be giving to others.

A word on wastewater reuse:  it is indeed becoming a reality, say, if you live in a large city in the easern half of the US, and the river that is your drinking water supply is downstream of a whole lot of other communities. Just as your city will, they pumped that river water to their drinking water treatment plants, cleaned and used it, the retreated it sufficiently that the river can sorta accomodate its pollution load, and dumped it back out again.  This happens over and over, until you get what passes for river water supply in the drinking water intake pipes..say for the city of Atlanta.

Now, you can only use so much water out of river without impairing its flow.  So if you're a big assed metropolitan area and you're growing at a pretty good clip, how else are you gonna meet water demand needs?  We call it "reclaimed water",  and its used for secondary purposes, mostly municipal and industrial supply.  Some cities, like Seattle, have water reclamation plants that treat and store water underground.  Pretty sure they're getting common in Arizona, Nevada, Texas and the Borderlands/Rio Grande area due to noteworthy shortages.

Hmmm.  You'd enjoy my environmental engineering classes, TOM.  You tend to learn a lot about life, along with the science.


----------



## Tough Old Man (Jul 19, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> Problem is, when you filter it to remove contaminant lipids, you also remove a whole lot of other materials you need in plasma. And its aint like these compounds are just floating around, waiting to be grabbed.
> 
> Hell, you INJECT these steroid analogs in oil, right? They're in the membranes of those cells in blood, the ones you need to be giving to others.
> 
> ...


My wife is sitting next to me playing online poker. She has been doing this all week while I have been on here reading your post. After reading most of them I laugh out loud. Linda is now getting to know that my laugh is coming from you "T". How the hell could I possibly have stress if all I'm doing is laughing most of the day.  

*"You're getting old when you get the same sensation from a rocking chair that you once got from a roller coaster". Trouble you keep me from the above feeling and are making me a healthier person*.


PT


----------



## pengers84 (Jul 19, 2006)

Whats the problem with a high RBC count if your blood pressure is ok?  Excuse my ignorance, im no molecular biologist thats for sure lol.


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## ZECH (Jul 19, 2006)

The higher the RBC count, the thicker your blood gets and the harder it is to pump..........Prime candidate for heart attack.

BTW, Charlotte has reuse water mains. Alot of them are used to water golf courses and such.


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## Trouble (Jul 19, 2006)

The whole research triangle area is far from typical.  One of the few places in the US where I would automatically fit in and feel at home.

Notice the wide streets and set back from the road, noise pollution barriers?  Charlotte was one of the towns we used to feature in our "green engineering" courses.

-----

The higher the RBC, the fewer the white blood cells, the less efficient the plasma for anything other than moving oxygen and carbon dioxide.  Also increases blood pressure, as volume carrying capacity is overloaded (that sludgy effect dg mentions).


----------



## Tough Old Man (Jul 20, 2006)

dg806 said:
			
		

> The higher the RBC count, the thicker your blood gets and the harder it is to pump..........Prime candidate for heart attack.
> 
> BTW, Charlotte has reuse water mains. Alot of them are used to water golf courses and such.


Also thicker blood can result in blood clots. This is something none of us need.


----------



## Pirate! (Jul 20, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> The higher the RBC, the fewer the white blood cells, the less efficient the plasma for anything other than moving oxygen and carbon dioxide.


Are you saying that the concentration of white blood cells goes down or the absolute amount of white blood cells goes down?


----------



## ZECH (Jul 20, 2006)

I think it may be the ratio she is referring to.


----------



## Tough Old Man (Jul 20, 2006)

Pirate! said:
			
		

> Are you saying that the concentration of white blood cells goes down or the absolute amount of white blood cells goes down?


I was wondering the same thing. I know that the count should be between 3.8-10.8...Mine was 6.2. 

So if troubles statement is true, I wonder what mine normal WBC count would be without the gear. I know my mother has high WBC count and has some form of leukemia.


----------



## Trouble (Jul 20, 2006)

Ratio.  Thanks dg.  As Tom points out, his total WBC...is a number, a count.  It was normal, but RBC was high. So its a ratio imbalance, unless you have immune system depression - which can happen with some drugs and steroid analogs.

Antioxidants protect these cells from oxidative damage from free radicals (iron catalyzes free radical attack when its released from hemoglobin..the higher the iron content, the more likely that glucose itself can activate iron to become a free radical and attack blood cells.  Some white blood cells help in mop up operations from this damage...you got too many cells, you get a sort of domino effect of more release of iron, more exposure to glucose during refeeds, more cell damage but limited ability for cleanup..and so on).  Thats just one of many reasons you want to keep RBC numbers within normal range.


----------



## redflash (Jul 20, 2006)

There have been some informative exchanges about red blood count (RBC) etc on TOM's excellent thread about his blood results but I thought I'd break out and start anew as that thread is now running at 77 posts at last count....

There is some scary stuff in that thread about EQ's propensity to increase RBC and the possible side effects of this.  From the sound of it, you could be forgiven for thinking that anyone who takes EQ is heading for a blood clot or blood pressure problems or other stuff arising from an imbalance between red and white blood cells....  Which makes EQ sound like scary stuff, yet it is a popular AAS and widely used and recommended, and we aren't all dropping off our perches.

On balance, I have always considered EQ to be a relatively safe compound.  It aromatises less readily then Test, it promotes tendon health where Test and many others do the opposite, and it increases appetite.

Am I missing something?


----------



## Tough Old Man (Jul 20, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> Ratio. Thanks dg. As Tom points out, his total WBC...is a number, a count. It was normal, but RBC was high. So its a ratio imbalance, unless you have immune system depression - which can happen with some drugs and steroid analogs.
> 
> Antioxidants protect these cells from oxidative damage from free radicals (iron catalyzes free radical attack when its released from hemoglobin..the higher the iron content, the more likely that glucose itself can activate iron to become a free radical and attack blood cells. Some white blood cells help in mop up operations from this damage...you got too many cells, you get a sort of domino effect of more release of iron, more exposure to glucose during refeeds, more cell damage but limited ability for cleanup..and so on). Thats just one of many reasons you want to keep RBC numbers within normal range.


Not sure if I understood this completely. Are you saying Iron can raise the RBC count. If so could of all that red meat 2.5 lbs a day caused the higher RBC count as it's filled with Iron. Like I said last year I didn't have this problem while using the same amount of gear but the difference was 2.5 lbs of boneless breast chicken with all the fat removed. Am I onto something here. More El Pollo Loco and less Ruth's Chris~!


----------



## BigPapaPump68 (Jul 20, 2006)

Eq is just like any other steroid, meaning there are risks taking them.


----------



## Pirate! (Jul 20, 2006)

It is definitely one of the more safe anabolic steroids. If you are in good health and keeping up with your bloodwork, it eq is a fine choice.


----------



## Trouble (Jul 20, 2006)

Iron is part of the active center of the protein called hemoglobin, that binds and tranports oxygen and carbon dioxide (and a few other gases) in blood.

When RBCs are thick, as cells age, the hemoglobin (heme center) can "pop out' of hemoglobin break down due to free radical attack  from oxygen (this is a constant process in our bodies).  When an iron atom is released, in the presence of glucose, a reaction can occur that causes the free iron to form a reactive complex with this sugar, and that then is called a free radical (peroxyl) complex. It can attack membranes and cause a chain reaction of breakdown events.  More iron is released, more free radicals form, more membrane (lipid peroxidation) occurs, more protein breaks down, blah blah blah...

You have X amount of free radical fighting ability. Its set for Y amount of normally blood cell concentration.  When X is low, and Y is high, you got problems.  Think of it as accelerated aging.  Very accelerated.

Does this make sense?    I hope so.  This is one very good reason why you want a normal RBC, not sludge - it can't be properly managed by the free radical scavengers in the body.

(Explaining complex  chemical reaction mechanisms in simple english is like trying to tell a 6th grader how to remove the detonator from a nuclear warhead.)

*sigh*


----------



## Tough Old Man (Jul 20, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> Iron is part of the active center of the protein called hemoglobin, that binds and tranports oxygen and carbon dioxide (and a few other gases) in blood.
> 
> When RBCs are thick, as cells age, the hemoglobin (heme center) can "pop out' of hemoglobin break down due to free radical attack from oxygen (this is a constant process in our bodies). When an iron atom is released, in the presence of glucose, a reaction can occur that causes the free iron to form a reactive complex with this sugar, and that then is called a free radical (peroxyl) complex. It can attack membranes and cause a chain reaction of breakdown events. More iron is released, more free radicals form, more membrane (lipid peroxidation) occurs, more protein breaks down, blah blah blah...
> 
> ...


I'll pass this info to your sister ( A Professor at the PT Medical center) and she'll break it down for me and let me know if reducing the amount of red meat I was eating will lower my RBC count..... .......Don't you just love me?????????????


----------



## Tough Old Man (Jul 20, 2006)

Remember that EQ in lower doses are a fairly safe steroid. As for a higher RBC count this can be a good thing for bodybuilding. Red blood cells are the carrier of oxygen in the body, meaning that a higher maximal oxygen capacity can be obtained and better performance can be achieved over longer amounts of time before lactic acid is built up. 

As for me my doctor is waiting for me to come in because of the higher count and the high cholestrol. 

I look at it this way. If the count is up only due to the EQ which is good for Bodybuilding, then great. 

Now some Moderator move this sucker over to my thread and RF quit being a lazy ass because of the 80 post count. It's about time we have a long thread in the anabolic forum. Makes this site look like something here is worth looking at. 

Peace Bro

Tough


----------



## Tough Old Man (Jul 20, 2006)

Bump............ I want Redflash can read


----------



## Trouble (Jul 20, 2006)

LOL, My sister is a endowed professor at the University of Florida.  While I know you were kidding, she has been pioneered hypertext smart linking of patient notes to online medical knowledge databases - just one of many original concepts that has made her known worldwide. Its purpose is to avoid medical profession errors and reduce risk.

In a sense, I hyperlink high-level molecular regulation of "plastic" gene expression to homeostatic metabolic systems control.  I reverse engineer symptoms to cause, then forward correct energy and mass flow.  Its purpose is to reduce self inflicted health management errors and reduce the financial burdens of public health risk / disease.

She has no idea of what I have gotten into; a irony of parallelism. 

Edit:  When I mean plastic, this is the prima facia evidence of exactly this concept: After a period of time of steroid use, the chemically enhanced tissue mass becomes permanently maintained = recognized as natural by the body.

Long-term use of steroids causes a permanent alteration in the sensitivity of the androgen receptor to endogenous steroid activation.  This has been just published last month in the biomedical literature. A variable length CAG repeat sequence is altered, it dictates a physical change androgen binding site in the final protein product (the androgen receptor protein that sits in muscle cell ER membranes).  This affords a high level of AR expression that becomes, after a time, permanent.  More than just the AR is affected by this permanent change, muscle support structure tissue is also altered - and this allows a change in the so-called metabolic set point (which I refer to as natural maximum sustainable mass)

Thus, the tissue is protected against casual metabolic attack (protein breakdown, proteolysis) for energy during exertion, forcing reliance on other energy stores.  The extra muscle mass is recognized by the body as "mission critical".

You will not find this observation/insight in any book, or paper, or website. The originating science is searching for clues in a cancer model to control cell proliferation.  I merely utilize their very capable work in a different context, that of chemically enhanced gene expression.



Your elevated RBC is a direct result of steroid analog manipulated erthyrocyte hyperplasia, induced by hGH and IGF-1 upregulation.  An unfortunate side effect of diddling with growth processes in the body.


----------



## Trouble (Jul 20, 2006)

*Moderators Note*

As requested, two pre-existing threads that deal with various liver lipid and RBC side effects of steroid analog use have now been merged to form a super-thread of related, yet diverse topics.

Hence the amusing subject line.


----------



## Tough Old Man (Jul 20, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> As requested, two pre-existing threads that deal with various liver lipid and RBC side effects of steroid analog use have now been merged to form a super-thread of related, yet diverse topics.
> 
> Hence the amusing subject line.


 Cool,  thanks for merging. Redflash thought he was moving into the diamond lane...LOL


----------



## ZECH (Jul 21, 2006)

redflash said:
			
		

> There is some scary stuff in that thread about EQ's propensity to increase RBC and the possible side effects of this.  From the sound of it, you could be forgiven for thinking that anyone who takes EQ is heading for a blood clot or blood pressure problems or other stuff arising from an imbalance between red and white blood cells....  Which makes EQ sound like scary stuff, yet it is a popular AAS and widely used and recommended, and we aren't all dropping off our perches.
> 
> On balance, I have always considered EQ to be a relatively safe compound.  It aromatises less readily then Test, it promotes tendon health where Test and many others do the opposite, and it increases appetite.
> 
> Am I missing something?


Safe is a misleading term here. Most people think that if they don't experience sides right away or very soon to the onset of steriod usage, that it is safe and does not effect them in the long term and that is very wrong. If you consider all the possible negative effects of different steriods, yes you could consider EQ safer than others. But it does have effects that could felt years down the road just as this thread and Trouble proved. Most people do not do enough research and understand the compounds and the effect they have on the body and do not worry about them. And this may cause some serious damage down the road. So when you hear continuous preaching on education and abstinence of use of steriods, there are reasons why.


----------



## redflash (Jul 22, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> As requested, two pre-existing threads that deal with various liver lipid and RBC side effects of steroid analog use have now been merged to form a super-thread of related, yet diverse topics.
> 
> Hence the amusing subject line.



And hence why I couldn't find my break-out thread and wondered whether I had imagined posting it in the first place... until I searched for all my posts.  And even then I could have sworn I hadn't posted anything about a kitchen sink and briefly doubted my sanity/memory... 

 It's a great thread, TOM, and I'm back in line, boss!

Thanks for the general reassurances...  DG806, I note your point about caution, and I know we are only talking relatives here not absolutes.  Observers of my previous posts will note extreme caution in designing my cycles, from a hesitation to use Test at all (I've overcome that one now but I'm still only at 375mg per week), to low doses (some would say too low - I'm still only using 400mg EQ per week on top of the test) and a complete avoidance of orals other than anavar (now at 40mg per day).

Everyone needs to set their own priorities and risk levels but for me it's long term health first, muscular development second, hence my initial concern about EQ.

All the best,

Flash


----------



## Tough Old Man (Jul 22, 2006)

redflash said:
			
		

> And hence why I couldn't find my break-out thread and wondered whether I had imagined posting it in the first place... until I searched for all my posts. And even then I could have sworn I hadn't posted anything about a kitchen sink and briefly doubted my sanity/memory...
> 
> It's a great thread, TOM, and I'm back in line, boss!
> 
> ...


I was just fucking with you RD. You can run the diamond lane when ever you want as long as there's three. So you count as one and the EQ and Test count as two which = 3.....

I think your a little low on the EQ. 600 mg / ew minumum for EQ. If that was Deca, 400 would be ok. I really don't see 400 Eq helping that much. 

PT


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 22, 2006)

*This seems to be the appropriate forum and thread to post this*. 


Q)  I've lost a lot of weight, but have this gut which is taking a long time to budge. Not like a beer gut, but a layer of fat which protrudes just below the navel and which I've had for years, as the result of being a very fat kid.

I had this fantasy of competing, but with two weeks to go and with my belly still there and no sign of the abs coming out, I don't think it's going to happen.

A)   Localized glycogen injections will do the trick.
You have to be totally carb depleted for a few days and only use 1ml/day, divided in a few small injections, shot directly into the fatty area. Fat will literally disappear over night.

Q)  Your suggestion is glycogen injections? I tried searching the forums and I couldn't find anymore info on this. Can you elaborate?


A)  Glucagons is the opposing hormone of insulin.
Available at any pharmacy as an insulin emergency kit. Most common is the Glucagons HypoKit. When a diabetic uses too much insulin and passes out, a shot of glucagon releases the glucose from the liver and brings the hypo diabetic back to life 

*To: Trouble. Do you think the above is true or false. Will injections of glycogen melt the fat away.* 

PT


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## JerseyDevil (Jul 22, 2006)

*More Questions for Trouble*

TOM's hemoglobin was 20.7 after cycle.  How high is too high?  I am prescribed Androgel and of course have regular bloodwork done.  I did a nice cycle consisting of test prop 600mg/wk, deca 400 mg/wk, with a dbol kicker (30mg each day first 4 weeks), cycle lasted 14 weeks.  I had bloodwork done about two months after the cycle, and my hemoglobin was 19.3.

My doc freaked out.  He pulled me completely off the gel.  But had a test done a month later... It was 17.2, still too high for him, a month later and it was 16.0.  He then prescribed me a big 3 pumps a day.  

You, I, and the fence post know it was the roids that raised my hemoglobin, so I told him I 'innocently ' took 1AD that I bought at GNC during this time.  Here is what really sucks... the last two labs and my test was only 180ng/dl, which is where I started!  The pussy is so concerned with my elevated hemoglobin, he refuses to increase my dose.

It seems like my best choice is to change doctors, but HRT, at least in southern NJ, is hard to come by.  How do I convince a doc to let ME do simple 100mg per week injections of test cyp?

Given my age, I am not interested in doing more cycles, I just want to get my test back in the normal range again.


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## hardasnails1973 (Jul 22, 2006)

With elevated hemoglobin could there been a chance were dehydrated for some apparent reason from some thing you were taking or doing?


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 22, 2006)

JerseyDevil said:
			
		

> *More Questions for Trouble*
> 
> TOM's hemoglobin was 20.7 after cycle. How high is too high? I am prescribed Androgel and of course have regular bloodwork done. I did a nice cycle consisting of test prop 600mg/wk, deca 400 mg/wk, with a dbol kicker (30mg each day first 4 weeks), cycle lasted 14 weeks. I had bloodwork done about two months after the cycle, and my hemoglobin was 19.3.
> 
> ...


*Here's a note for you. You had your bloodwork done two months after your cycle finished. Mine was done three days after my cycle finished. *


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## JerseyDevil (Jul 22, 2006)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> *Here's a note for you. You had your bloodwork done two months after your cycle finished. Mine was done three days after my cycle finished. *


Yeah I caught that TOM.  My hemoglobin was high.... it is now normal.

So I can update my notes, what is your hemoglobin now?


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 22, 2006)

JerseyDevil said:
			
		

> Yeah I caught that TOM. My hemoglobin was high.... it is now normal.
> 
> So I can update my notes, what is your hemoglobin now?


Couldn't tell you as I had the bllodwork done just recently and I'm back on a cycle. Trouble will kill me for this but I have been cycling the past 9 months 8 weeks on and 3 weeks off. Really I don't think it has done me a bit of good as the cycle dosage has stayed the same. I keep blowing it with diet. I start bulking and then start seeing to much fat and it drives me nutty and then i cut back on cal's and it up where i left off before cycle started. If i would just stick to one and then either bulk or cut it would make a big difference. *I so fucking stupid for so much talent*.


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## hardasnails1973 (Jul 22, 2006)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> Couldn't tell you as I had the bllodwork done just recently and I'm back on a cycle. Trouble will kill me for this but I have been cycling the past 9 months 8 weeks on and 3 weeks off. Really I don't think it has done me a bit of good as the cycle dosage has stayed the same. I keep blowing it with diet. I start bulking and then start seeing to much fat and it drives me nutty and then i cut back on cal's and it up where i left off before cycle started. If i would just stick to one and then either bulk or cut it would make a big difference. *I so fucking stupid for so much talent*.



ARe you swithcing up esters every cycle as well as EQ deca, primo, masteron, running hcg while on 6 weeks on 6-8 off is my favorite.  If you are not growing from juice then its either your training .Could be something is just not functioning optimal at the cellular level.  Diet wise i prefer a 4-6 week slow bulk then reduce calories by 20% or just up cardio for 2-3 weeks then bulk again inching caloires up each time on each bulk phase.  Switch one varabile at a time so you know which one works.  My freind 38 years old competed at 196 1 year later he is competing at 230 just as lean as he was at 196 and hes 5'6.  I would not doubt it if he wins NPC master this year.  nothing changed except he starting experimenting with gh and igf-1 and he blow UP.  What his internals look like is probably a different story...


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## Trouble (Jul 22, 2006)

I just found this thread again; its been busy in here today. 

Short answer for TOM: no glycogen, no glucagon.  Too damn dangerous and hard on the liver - it floods the system with free fatty acids, and you don't burn them TOM, that metabolic pathway is blocked due to diet and lifestyle factors that have to be fixed. They would only redeposit again.

Proper conditioning of the cardiovascular system; cessation of certain habits and chemical enhancers, modification of sleep, diet, and judicious use of supplements are key to providing 10-25 yrs of life, with some semblence of health behind it.  No guarantees of any kind of miraculous body comp changes.  This is about avoiding dying in the upcoming 5 yrs.  

There is no shortcut; there is only reality.  

Jersey, did you see my thread in the health section on test restoration?  Pirate raised the question.  Selenium methionate, 95% forskolin in olive oil, antioxidants to build up glutathione restores the steroid production cascade and seems to reduce an effect attributed not to reduced androgen receptor action from low test, but from stress-damaged cells that have lost their proper energetics function.  This seems to make sense; ironically, much of the information was derived in a reverse engineering mode by authors modeling the chemistry behind chemical castration and male birth control pills.

Very much worth a try (the supplements, not the physiological models, LOL).

TOMS problems are more profound; a lifetime of job related stress and the damage to various dopamine and serotonin receptors in the the brain and liver.  Insult and injury from various lifestyle factors I can't go into to, private matters.  TOM knows and I know, what must be done.

Nuf said.


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 22, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> I just found this thread again; its been busy in here today.
> 
> Short answer for TOM: no glycogen, no glucagon. Too damn dangerous and hard on the liver - it floods the system with free fatty acids, and you don't burn them TOM, that metabolic pathway is blocked due to diet and lifestyle factors that have to be fixed. They would only redeposit again.
> 
> ...


Lol S.C thinks I'm brain dead. I just love this chick. Hope the shower water is cold.  ..No Trouble I have mostly stayed with the same gear. TRest and EQ....I think the bod is use to it. 

Shit girl it took you a while to respond. I thoiught you were on a hot date. Nope your not. The lonely stick with each other.....Now that last statement has your attn: ...I'm sitting here laughing again and Linda knows why..............


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 24, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> Short answer for TOM: no glycogen, no glucagon. Too damn dangerous and hard on the liver - it floods the system with free fatty acids, and you don't burn them TOM, that metabolic pathway is blocked due to diet and lifestyle factors that have to be fixed. They would only redeposit again.


Ok your saying that it would melt the fat away but only temporary. The post came from an IFBB pro that was helping a person the last couple of weeks to get rid of the last bit of stubborn fat. That pro didn't state that it would only be temp or not.


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## Pirate! (Jul 25, 2006)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> *I so fucking stupid for so much talent*.


 

You won't even temporarily lose fat with that method. It's a very bad idea, IMO.


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 25, 2006)

Pirate! said:
			
		

> You won't even temporarily lose fat with that method. It's a very bad idea, IMO.


Well big A (IFBB Pro) over at Pro muscle says differently.

now i'm not going to compete, so i don't need this anyways. But if it was a perm solution, I would be thinking about it very quickly.


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