# 69g protein in pwo shake too much?



## Flex (Nov 22, 2004)

I currently put in 69g of whey into my pwo shake. Is that good, or is it a waste? 

I figure i'd rather have too much than too little, but DAMN i run through these tubs WAY too fast. i buy a new tub every week!

thanks,

FLEX


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## musclepump (Nov 22, 2004)

It's too much. Go with 40g per shake.


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## PreMier (Nov 22, 2004)

musclepump said:
			
		

> It's too much. Go with 40g per shake.



Explain why.. show me a study, that says the body can only absorb 40g of protein.

I use 60-70g in my post workout shake also.


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## musclepump (Nov 22, 2004)

Did I say the body could only absorb 40g or protein? No, I didn't. The body can use, as with calories, only so much at a time. As Chris Cook speaks of in the latest issue of FLEX, you'll gain when you can assimilate more protein. It would, in my own opinion and that of Cook's, more beneficial to take 40g at one time and perhaps an hour or two later, take in the rest.


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## PreMier (Nov 22, 2004)

No, you didn't 'say' it could only absorb 40g.  But you are saying the body can only use so much?  And that 40g is optimal?  Same thing man, I would like to see some evidence of this.  
I am sure that Flex eats every 2-3 hours as is, so I see no problem taking in that much protein post workout.


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## cman (Nov 22, 2004)

a freind of mine in Phoenix told me yesterday that he makes whey balls out of protein and then he can snack on them durring work.

you ever heard of that?


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## cman (Nov 22, 2004)

plus when do you apply the 1 gram per pound thing?


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## PreMier (Nov 22, 2004)

cman said:
			
		

> plus when do you apply the 1 gram per pound thing?



Thats over a daily intake of food.  LAM says 1-2 grams per lb of LBM, not total weight.  I take in more than 2g per lb of total weight though.  I would rather eat steak than brown rice lol

Never heard of protein balls


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## Emma-Leigh (Nov 22, 2004)

Flex said:
			
		

> I currently put in 69g of whey into my pwo shake. Is that good, or is it a waste?
> 
> I figure i'd rather have too much than too little, but DAMN i run through these tubs WAY too fast. i buy a new tub every week!
> 
> ...



For me, I base PWO protein intake on current body weight and goal weight (as long as it is reasonable).. So I take that and times it roughly by 0.25 to 0.33g per pound.

So say you are currently 210 and you want to be 220 pounds then you want about 0.3 x 220 = 70g protein. So if that is the case then 69g of protein would be fine.

But you don't need to get the entire amount from whey - if you add skim milk to your shake then that will also give you some protein and make it cheaper.

eg: What about -
2 scoops whey (50g protein)
2 cup skim milk (24g protein)


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## Flex (Nov 23, 2004)

thanks for your help, guys and girls...

i suppose i could use skim milk, but i make my shakes before hand and freeze them (this way they are thawed, but still cold, right when i finish my wo for immediate drinking), plus only 1 cup of skim would fit in the poland spring bottle i put it in (and i don't know if milk would stay good if i froze/thawed it). 

i think i'ma stick with 69g of whey with cran juice...Mmmmmm, Cranberry and chocolate mint  . Like i said before, better too much than too little...


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## Luke9583 (Nov 23, 2004)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Explain why.. show me a study, that says the body can only absorb 40g of protein.
> 
> I use 60-70g in my post workout shake also.


Hey!  if you can process it 

Anything more than 50g and my gut just says "fuq it" and I run to the bathroom


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## Purdue Power (Nov 23, 2004)

PreMier said:
			
		

> No, you didn't 'say' it could only absorb 40g. But you are saying the body can only use so much? And that 40g is optimal? Same thing man, I would like to see some evidence of this.
> I am sure that Flex eats every 2-3 hours as is, so I see no problem taking in that much protein post workout.


I can guartantee that you are ripping ass for a long time after you take in that much protein.  Your body can only process about 40g of protein every 2 hours.  Your body may be able to take in more at some times than others:when you first wake up, when you havn't eaten in a few hours.  Do what you want, but you are wasting your money by taking in that much protein at once.


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## fifteecent (Nov 24, 2004)

I'm not sure if you guys know but milk isnt the best type of sugar for your post workout shake. A mix between maltodextrin and dextrose with whey is the best option for your post-workout. It'll spike your insulin as well as rush nutrients into your muscles for quickest recovery.


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## fUnc17 (Nov 24, 2004)

Isn't it true that you can only absorb about 30-40g of protein at a clip? So if you were to make a shake and it contained 60g then those 20g extra would be stored as fat, no?

For me, I figure my LBM is approx. 178lbs. Divide that up by 5-7 meals and you get between 25-35g of protein per meal. Isn't that more ideal than jamming 70g of protein down your throat all at once?


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## Luke9583 (Nov 24, 2004)

fUnc17 said:
			
		

> Isn't it true that you can only absorb about 30-40g of protein at a clip? So if you were to make a shake and it contained 60g then those 20g extra would be stored as fat, no?
> 
> For me, I figure my LBM is approx. 178lbs. Divide that up by 5-7 meals and you get between 25-35g of protein per meal. Isn't that more ideal than jamming 70g of protein down your throat all at once?


 
Not neccessarily.  Many common bulking calculators would reccomend you eat 350 g of protein a day for your LBM.  If you split that up into 5-7, you'd have to eat around 60g a meal.


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## Tha Don (Nov 24, 2004)

putting 69g or protein powder in a shake and necking it is a waste IMO, unless you have a big ass stomach it would get you pretty damm bloated  and yes half of it would not be absorbed

however i've heard that you should sip your post-workout shake over a 30-45 min period (whilst sipping on water also, as without loads of water the nutrients can't reach your muscle cells), if you were to consume say 70g of protein over a 45min period i reckon that would probably be fine - absorbtion would be optimized and you'd prevent bloating or any crash in insulin levels (which is what you don't want)

I used to neck my PWO shake but now i sip it and I have to say I reckon its made a big difference! no bloat, no crash in energy and i got plenty of room for a big ass meal afterwards!


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## CowPimp (Nov 24, 2004)

I say that's fine.  There is no exact amount of protein that everyone can absorb at once.  That is dependent on many personal anatomic factors.  You're a pretty big guy, I would say that you can handle it.  As well, you have probably been eating large amounts of protein for a long time, so your body is most likely capable of assimilating more protein than the average person, or even a bodybuilder who weighs a lot less and doesn't eat nearly as much protein in a day.


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## musclepump (Nov 24, 2004)

I try to keep myself at about 30g of protein an hour; which over the course of a 10 hour waking day is about 300g, obviously. I'm only 190 pounds, so it works out well.


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## Emma-Leigh (Nov 24, 2004)

fifteecent said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if you guys know but milk isnt the best type of sugar for your post workout shake. A mix between maltodextrin and dextrose with whey is the best option for your post-workout. It'll spike your insulin as well as rush nutrients into your muscles for quickest recovery.



You don't need malto/dextrose (not unless you have done a TRUELY glycogen depleting workout - which most people to do not achieve with a normal weight training session. I am talking about things such as half-marathons which involve hours of aerobic activity - and then you are better off taking a recovery drink such as gatorade, as it also offers you the fructose and electrolytes which are also benificial in these situations).

Milk is an excellent post-exercise carb source. It actually has 7g of dextrose (glucose) per 1 cup while also offering you vitamins, minerals, water and protein to boot. Milk is also pretty high in the insulin index - meaning it will stimulate a sufficient insulin release to reverse catabolism and promote amino acid uptake. Then, consider the factor that when you add your whey protein it acts synergestically to stimulate insulin even more you are covered in that department. It also is highly anabolic in it's own right - stimulating muscle growth and recovery and helps in the absorption of some of the biologically functional protein fractions in the whey protein powder (like IGF).

It also offers you glalactose, which is released as energy in a slower manner than the dextrose/glucose and this helps to prevent a post-workout energy crash and continue your recovery while all the amino acids from your whey/milk are absorbed and do their job.

The 'insulin spike' that many refer to which has this magical anabolic effect after your workout is only really seen in SUPERPHYSIOLOGICAL insulin spikes - that means you need hugo-massive doses of pure glucose (far in excess of what most being are willing to take) in order to get that 'special effect'. In the levels that most people take it, all that happens is that you get a spike in glucose and insulin, a decrease in free-fatty acid release, and a post-workout crash in blood glucose.


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## PreMier (Nov 24, 2004)

Emma-Leigh


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## Emma-Leigh (Nov 24, 2004)

fUnc17 said:
			
		

> Isn't it true that you can only absorb about 30-40g of protein at a clip? So if you were to make a shake and it contained 60g then those 20g extra would be stored as fat, no?


No. You can not only absord 30-40g at a time. That is crap. It is related to your lean mass, your metabolism/physiology and hormone levels, what else you are taking in at that time, what workout you just did (and the damage it just did) and lots of other things. 

Do you really think that a 200 pound man would be able to use the same amount of protein as a 120 pound female?

But even then it takes A LOT for protein to be converted into fat. Sure, anything in excess will 'store' but that is only if your overall calorie intake is excessive. If you are getting lots of protein but nothing else, if your calorie intake is fine then you will not store it as fat - the amino acids will be deaminated (processed) and the main section of the amino acid will go on to form glucose for energy... If this is not used it will then be processed to give you glycogen... It is only if this capacity is full that you it will be converted from glucose to be stored as a fat.



> For me, I figure my LBM is approx. 178lbs. Divide that up by 5-7 meals and you get between 25-35g of protein per meal. Isn't that more ideal than jamming 70g of protein down your throat all at once?


In my opinion you can have a little more protein than that. Sure, you CAN get results with 1g per pound. But you can have up to 1.5g of protein per pound lean mass - which would have you at 260-270g of protein. Although it may not offer you much more in terms of anabolic potential (unless you are 'synthetic') it offers you many more metabolic/health advantages.

I would definately suggest you get 1.2g per pound - which is 215g. So that means 30 to 45g per meal.

For post-workout you also want a slightly higher protein intake than in your other meals - at 0.25 to 0.3g/pound that means ~50g for you. So your 'regular' meals have a little less (say, 5 meals of 35g) and then your PWO shake as 50g. That gives you 225g of protein (or 1.26g/pound).


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## soxmuscle (Nov 24, 2004)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Emma-Leigh


I know, right.

As for me, I have the same mentality that you have.  It's better to consume more than you need, than less than you need.  If it costs you an extra buck or two a week, well then so be it.

I am quite confused with all the protein talk though, I must admit.  A few weeks back I made a post regarding my diet and how with pwo shakes, my intake level of protein was up around I recall 300 grams of protein which more than doubles my body weight.  People have been telling me that I should discard counting proteins that you get from oatmeal, wheat bread, etc. and I am curious why protein in the aforementioned foods would not be the same as the protein in a breast of chicken.


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## CowPimp (Nov 24, 2004)

soxmuscle said:
			
		

> I know, right.
> 
> As for me, I have the same mentality that you have.  It's better to consume more than you need, than less than you need.  If it costs you an extra buck or two a week, well then so be it.
> 
> I am quite confused with all the protein talk though, I must admit.  A few weeks back I made a post regarding my diet and how with pwo shakes, my intake level of protein was up around I recall 300 grams of protein which more than doubles my body weight.  People have been telling me that I should discard counting proteins that you get from oatmeal, wheat bread, etc. and I am curious why protein in the aforementioned foods would not be the same as the protein in a breast of chicken.



There are complete proteins, and there are incomplete proteins.  There are 9 essential amino acids that the body is incapable of producing.  Complete proteins contain all of these amino acids, while incomplete proteins may or may not.  Sometimes incomplete proteins do contain all 9, but the levels of some of them are drastically smaller than the other amino acids it contains, often to the point of insignificance.  The idea is to only count complete proteins.


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## CowPimp (Nov 24, 2004)

Emma, I'm just curious, what type of educational background do you have in nutrition?  Your insight into nutritional debates and questions is astounding.


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## Randy (Nov 24, 2004)

Emmas explaination did sound very impressive, but for the average person they just want to know how to make a safe estimation of how much protein they should take within a period of time.  I can't see many measuring their metabolism/physiology and hormone levels at what not to estimate how much protein they should consume. Emmas explanation still seems to coincide with what I have always heard. In general you can take up to 50 grams of protein within a 2 hour period. I personally try to target around 20 grams every 1.5 hours. Sometime will reach 50 at one time, but then will not take in any more protein for like 3 hours. But if I don't get that much, then i will fall back to the 20 every 1.5 hours. I think it might be better to take in smaller amounts in a smaller time , then bigger amounts for longer times. But I try to never exceed 50 gram in 2 hours. I hope that my thinking is correct.


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## soxmuscle (Nov 24, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> There are complete proteins, and there are incomplete proteins. There are 9 essential amino acids that the body is incapable of producing. Complete proteins contain all of these amino acids, while incomplete proteins may or may not. Sometimes incomplete proteins do contain all 9, but the levels of some of them are drastically smaller than the other amino acids it contains, often to the point of insignificance. The idea is to only count complete proteins.


So my wheat bread on my sandwhich wouldn't count, but the turkey would?  That is real helpful, thanks.

The foods I eat are basically the same thing each day, but if you could sort of help me, it would be greatly appreciated.  I eat many foods daily, but these are the mainstays.  The ones that I believe are complete will be colored in blue, the others won't.  Tell me if I am correct.

- milk
- whey
- eggbeaters
- oatmeal
- nat. peanut butter
- wheat bread
- turkey
- chicken
- steak
- brocolli

Thanks.


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## CowPimp (Nov 24, 2004)

I don't think peanut butter is a complete protein, but don't quote me on that.  The others are all complete proteins.


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## Randy (Nov 24, 2004)

Sox,

Here is a good link on Protein.  
There you will find charts to calculate the estimated protein values in the foods you mentioned, as well as many others.

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31298&highlight=protein


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## soxmuscle (Nov 24, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> Sox,
> 
> Here is a good link on Protein.
> There you will find charts to calculate the estimated protein values in the foods you mentioned, as well as many others.
> ...


Alright thanks.  At one time I thought I was consuming over 300 grams of protein and it could shrink down quite a bit once I get this complete protein stuff down.


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## Randy (Nov 24, 2004)

Don't mention it..


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## Emma-Leigh (Nov 24, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> the average person they just want to know how to make a safe estimation of how much protein they should take within a period of time.  I can't see many measuring their metabolism/physiology and hormone levels at what not to estimate how much protein they should consume.


To a certain degree anyone can 'guesstimate' their protein needs. 

For example - If you are very active, doing lots of strength training, actively growing, sick or injured, male or pregnant then your protein needs will be larger than if you are a sedentary, non-growing, healthy, middle aged or female...

But you can not pinpoint that you will need 'x' grams every 'x' hours. It doesn't happen like that...



> In general you can take up to 50 grams of protein within a 2 hour period.


There is no hard and fast rule for the amount of protein you should be consuming - and I never meant to imply that.... I actually commenting on the fact that due to these variations (metabolism, hormone levels etc etc) you can't precisely calculate your protein needs.

So this '50g' figure is not true - In fact, you can take in a LOT more protein than this and your body will still digest and absorb it (unless you consume MASSIVE MASSIVE amounts, in which case the pure bulk will mean that the protein will be passed through your intestines at a speed and quantity that will overwhelm your enzymatic capacity... and then you will know as you will get horrible gas as the bacteria in your colon have a protein feast...  ).

Anyway - your body will still digest and absorb the protein and you will still get amino acids released into your blood... It is whether or not your MUSCLES AND TISSUES can take up these amino acids for anabolism/growth/repair and other functions that is the limiting factor.. So excess protein that is not used for these purposes will be converted to energy via gluconeogenesis... And if you don't need glucose at that point in time, this will then be stored as glycogen.



> I personally try to target around 20 grams every 1.5 hours. Sometime will reach 50 at one time, but then will not take in any more protein for like 3 hours. But if I don't get that much, then i will fall back to the 20 every 1.5 hours. I think it might be better to take in smaller amounts in a smaller time , then bigger amounts for longer times. But I try to never exceed 50 gram in 2 hours. I hope that my thinking is correct.


You have the right idea here - you should be aiming to eat a minimum protein level in each of your meals such that you are constantly 'drip feeding' your body amino acids. The protein in your meals will help in thermogenesis (helps you burn energy), will keep you fuller (it is more satisfying) and will also make sure that, if your body NEEDS it, the amino acids are available for growth and repair.

I use the rough guide of - make sure you get at least 1g of protein per pound. I like values up in the 1.2 to 1.5g per pound range. The exact amount someone will want will depend on their personal diet preference.

Divide this value by the number of meals you have. That should give you your rough protein intake per meal.

Then, I calculate post-workout separately - in your shake you want between 0.25 and 0.3g of protein per pound.

eg:
190 pound guy. He aims for 1.3g of protein/pound. Therefore he wants 250g per day.

He eats 7 meals a day (including post-workout shake). 

In his post-workout shake he wants ~0.25-0.3g per pound = 50g.

Therefore his other 6 meals should divide the remaining 200g evenly = 33g.

Therefore, in all his other meals he should aim for 33g of protein.


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## Emma-Leigh (Nov 24, 2004)

soxmuscle said:
			
		

> I am quite confused with all the protein talk though, I must admit.  A few weeks back I made a post regarding my diet and how with pwo shakes, my intake level of protein was up around I recall 300 grams of protein which more than doubles my body weight.  People have been telling me that I should discard counting proteins that you get from oatmeal, wheat bread, etc. and I am curious why protein in the aforementioned foods would not be the same as the protein in a breast of chicken.



I outlined my opinion here: Protein Requirements 

Where I said: 





> I count protein from everything in my totals for the day (beans, grains, vegetables, yoghurt etc). Whether the amino acids you digest are from a source that is complete or incomplete, the body will use them, so it doesn't matter if it is from a kidney bean or a king-fish.
> 
> BUT, due to the differences in the digestability, bioavailability and efficiency of the different proteins you will get different uptakes from your intestines AND you will get differences in the ability of your body to use those amino acids for productive growth. So this means you should aim to get an absolute minimum of 1.0g/pound of the highly digestable proteins (such as those in meats, eggs, lean dairy, protein powders etc) and then count the extra stuff as a bonus.
> 
> ...




So, just make sure you get 1 - 1.5g per pound of complete protein then count the stuff from incomplete sources as a bonus.


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## Randy (Nov 24, 2004)

Emma,

Wow! Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain in detail this process.
While I still don't understand it all  I have a much better idea of how to feed my protein needs. I think since you supported my idea of taking small doses throught the day I will try to stick with that plan of action. As you say there are so many variables, there is really no fixed amount. So in light of this, we need to follow some basic rules of thumb to some degree to meet our daily protein requirements. My goal this upcoming year is to eat many meals, small portions and drip feed (as you say) my nutrition as well as protein. 

Do you know Bandaid by any chance Emma? 
If you look at that previous protein link I provided, you can read some of the information she provided on protein as well. She also is in the medical field and is a great asset to us here. I think you will see that many of the comments she has made on protein supports your comments as well. If you don't know her, she is a really nice lady and would surely get a long well with her.

In any case, thanks again Emma for your information. I appreciate it. 
I am actually going to cut and paste it for future reference as well if you don't mind.


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## CowPimp (Nov 25, 2004)

Although the 1g per pound rule is a decent rule of thumb, I try to avoid using numbers like that all together.  I merely count my calories, and divide the macros up according to splits that atheletes and bodybuilders commonly use.  For example, if I eat 4000 calories in one day on an isocaloric macro split (33/33/33), then I will be eating about 333g of protein each day, spread fairly evenly throughout my meals.


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## Emma-Leigh (Nov 25, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Although the 1g per pound rule is a decent rule of thumb, I try to avoid using numbers like that all together.  I merely count my calories, and divide the macros up according to splits that atheletes and bodybuilders commonly use.  For example, if I eat 4000 calories in one day on an isocaloric macro split (33/33/33), then I will be eating about 333g of protein each day, spread fairly evenly throughout my meals.



This is the exact opposite to how I do it. I do it by body weight - as your bodies abolute fat and protein needs are not dependant on your calorie intake, but they are highly dependant on your lean mass. 

If you calculate macronutrient intake by calorie intake/ratio levels you can leave yourself deficient of certain macronutrients or you can get far in excess of what you need of others....

For health it is suggested you get 0.3 to 0.4g of fat per pound... Then I calculate out protein requirement (from 1 to 1.5g per pound) and then fill in the rest of the calorie intake with carbs +/- prefered fuel choice....


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## wtfzor (Nov 25, 2004)

Flex said:
			
		

> I figure i'd rather have too much than too little, but DAMN i run through these tubs WAY too fast. i buy a new tub every week!


 you are one rich ******.


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## CowPimp (Nov 25, 2004)

Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> This is the exact opposite to how I do it. I do it by body weight - as your bodies abolute fat and protein needs are not dependant on your calorie intake, but they are highly dependant on your lean mass.
> 
> If you calculate macronutrient intake by calorie intake/ratio levels you can leave yourself deficient of certain macronutrients or you can get far in excess of what you need of others....
> 
> For health it is suggested you get 0.3 to 0.4g of fat per pound... Then I calculate out protein requirement (from 1 to 1.5g per pound) and then fill in the rest of the calorie intake with carbs +/- prefered fuel choice....



The issue I have with that method is the fact that I am an endo/meso.  I tend to store fat fairly easily.  If I only eat .3-.4g of fat per pound, and 1-1.5g of protein per pound, then I would have to eat a crazy number of carbs.  For my 4K calorie diet, that's 684 calories from fat (76g), 1140 from protein (285g), and 2176 calories from carbs (544g).  I guarantee you I would be gaining a lot more fat if I eat that many carbs every day.  

Currently, I take in about 300-350g of protein and carbs, and about 150g of fat per day.  Mind you, those are mostly EFAs.


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## Randy (Nov 25, 2004)

Damn I think this sounds much to anal to me.  I will do my 20 grams every 1.5 hours and leave it at that. I'm going to go with my 1-1.5 grams per bodyweight and that is it.  I'm not going to go into the scientific calculations to map out my daily protein requirements .  Not that I don't appreciate your interests to do so yourself.  I much prefer the rule of thumb method myself.


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## Emma-Leigh (Nov 25, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> The issue I have with that method is the fact that I am an endo/meso.  I tend to store fat fairly easily.  If I only eat .3-.4g of fat per pound, and 1-1.5g of protein per pound, then I would have to eat a crazy number of carbs.


This is why I said with carbs +/- energy source of preference! 

Although some people will need all their other calories to come from carbs, others (like you) need more fats. I simply use the 0.3 to 0.4g of fats figure as a *minimum* fat intake for health reasons.

And, at the end of the day - if what you are doing is healthy, and if it is working for you then that is all that matters!


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## CowPimp (Nov 25, 2004)

Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> This is why I said with carbs +/- energy source of preference!
> 
> Although some people will need all their other calories to come from carbs, others (like you) need more fats. I simply use the 0.3 to 0.4g of fats figure as a *minimum* fat intake for health reasons.
> 
> And, at the end of the day - if what you are doing is healthy, and if it is working for you then that is all that matters!



Fair enough.  Although, in the end, any competent macro split should result in getting the minimum amount of each macro.  I always tell people to make at least 20% of their calories come from fat.


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## Flex (Nov 26, 2004)

wtfzor said:
			
		

> you are one rich ******.



I'm RICH, beYOOOOOOOOOOOOTCH  
i just like to consider it as me investing in my BB

Didn't know this was gonna turn into such a big thread. i say GODDAMN.

Don't know what the big discussion is, but i eat over 300g protein/day, with 50g+ at each meal. 

Thanks for all your help, boys and girls  

FLEX


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## Randy (Nov 26, 2004)

40-50 should work...   But Should one take 50 within 2 hours or 50 grams within 3 hours    I know I talked about 20 grams and metering my amounts...well I do that too, but usually doing that I don't get enough by the end of the day so I was thinking of just taking in 40-50 at one time and do that every 2 to 3 hours...not sure what would be best.  I don't want to over do it on the protein and cause adverse affects.


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## Emma-Leigh (Nov 26, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> 40-50 should work...   But Should one take 50 within 2 hours or 50 grams within 3 hours    I know I talked about 20 grams and metering my amounts...well I do that too, but usually doing that I don't get enough by the end of the day so I was thinking of just taking in 40-50 at one time and do that every 2 to 3 hours...not sure what would be best.  I don't want to over do it on the protein and cause adverse affects.



LOL - you are thinking about this wayyyyy too much! 

How many meals do you normally have a day? You should be eating about every 3 hours. Which usually means about 6 meals... Then, just get divide your daily requirements into each of those meals...

So say you want about 225g of protein, and you eat 6 meals a day, you should have about 35 to 40g of protein per meal.

So that is about 5 oz of cooked tuna (36g protein), 5 oz of cooked chicken breast (38.5g protein), 1 whole egg and 9 egg whites (38.5g protein), 6 oz shrimp (36g protein) or 1.25 cups cottage cheese (36g protein).

As for protein and adverse effects - well... Although there are no real long term studies, all the short term studies suggest that high protein diets in healthy individuals do not cause any adverse effects.

This is, of course, provided you do not have underlying kidney or liver disease (as these help in processing and excreting the amino acid metabolites), that you drink enough water (to keep you hydrated and to maintain your kidney function and help your kidneys get rid of urea) and you are meeting all your other nutritional needs (that is, you are making sure you are getting enough fibre, vitamins, minerals, healthy fats etc etc).


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## Randy (Nov 26, 2004)

Ok Emma... You're hired! I nominate you to be my personal trainer .

Yeah, I guess you're right I was looking at to many different angles here  Ok I will stick with the 35-40 grams every 3 hour meal. That sounds good . 

Nutrition Emma is one of my weak areas, but I am really trying to learn about nutrician and discipline myself to adhere to a strict nutritious diet. I don't count my own calories (never have), but would like to get to that point someday. I would also like to learn much more so I can focus on eating the right foods. I have learned quit a bit though from people like Jodi and others here on the board. It's nice to have people that are willing to share their knowledge like yourself. I do appreciate it. 

Did I get enough smiles in here...  They sure add up fast don't they?


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## fifteecent (Nov 26, 2004)

Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> You don't need malto/dextrose (not unless you have done a TRUELY glycogen depleting workout - which most people to do not achieve with a normal weight training session. I am talking about things such as half-marathons which involve hours of aerobic activity - and then you are better off taking a recovery drink such as gatorade, as it also offers you the fructose and electrolytes which are also benificial in these situations).
> 
> Milk is an excellent post-exercise carb source. It actually has 7g of dextrose (glucose) per 1 cup while also offering you vitamins, minerals, water and protein to boot. Milk is also pretty high in the insulin index - meaning it will stimulate a sufficient insulin release to reverse catabolism and promote amino acid uptake. Then, consider the factor that when you add your whey protein it acts synergestically to stimulate insulin even more you are covered in that department. It also is highly anabolic in it's own right - stimulating muscle growth and recovery and helps in the absorption of some of the biologically functional protein fractions in the whey protein powder (like IGF).
> 
> ...


Hey Emma, I was wondering how sure are you about the information that you have told me? The people I know who take this malto/dextrose PWO shake don't specifically use it for the glycogen refilling aspect but for the 'magical' insulin spike. They take in total 70g of dextrose and maltodextrin with their whey protein shake (but they take the malt/dextrose in a specific ratio). 

Also, it seems like milk is not a very good post-workout drink at all. Although what you said about galactose is good, a lot of milk is lactose is it not? and I don't think lactose would be a better PWO sugar than dextrose and maltodextrin.

Anyway, I know there are some studies on this and I'll go find some. If you could do the same that would be great so we could both back-up our claims.

-fifteecent


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## Emma-Leigh (Nov 27, 2004)

fifteecent said:
			
		

> Hey Emma, I was wondering how sure are you about the information that you have told me?


Which part do you specifically refer to? 
The fact that it takes a lot more than 1 hr of weights to deplete glycogen?
The nutritional content of milk?
The insulin index of milk?
The fact that milk + whey have a synergestic action on insulin release?
The fact that it is only a superphysiological insulin release (not induced in normal conditions) creates a directly anabolic response?



> The people I know who take this malto/dextrose PWO shake don't specifically use it for the glycogen refilling aspect but for the 'magical' insulin spike. They take in total 70g of dextrose and maltodextrin with their whey protein shake (but they take the malt/dextrose in a specific ratio).


Firstly, this must be a single person you are talking about - because every single bodybuilder who takes in malto/dextrose PWO will not take in exactly 70g (and they usually take it in a 50:50 ratio)... Why would someone who is 140 pounds require the same carbs PWO as someone who is 240 pounds?

But why do they want this 'insulin spike'? What advantage is it giving them? Basically insulin acts in an anti-catabolic function... At the level of insulin creates by this level of dextrose it blunt cortisols, decrease catabolism and increase the rate of glycogen storage. But all of this is also achieved with a mik/whey mixture. There is no advantage of having the dextrose mix.

The magic protein synthesis stimulation of insulin that many people hope they get with dextrose/malto post-workout does not happen at physiological levels! So the insulin level that is secreted in response to your milk/whey mixture is more than enough.... Plus, it has the added benefit of being an electrolyte solution which is highly anabolic by nature (think of what milk is - and it's true function!).



> Also, it seems like milk is not a very good post-workout drink at all. Although what you said about galactose is good, a lot of milk is lactose is it not? and I don't think lactose would be a better PWO sugar than dextrose and maltodextrin.



Ummm... Ok. You are a little confused here... 
Lactose is milk sugar/carbohydrate - but this is not directly absorbed by the body. Lactose is a what is called a disaccharide (meaning it contains two sugar units), and your body can not absorb disaccharides. Infact, it can only directly absorb three sugars - Glucose, fructose and galactose.

So, in your intestines (at the mucosa wall), each lactose molecule is broken down (by the enzyme lactase) into two units - glucose and galactose. These are then absorbed into the intestinal cells and then pass into the portal vein.

This vein then takes the blood to the liver where it is 'filtered' of all the toxins and nasty things that also get through from your intestines and then the blood passes into another big vein (the vena cava) and this takes it back to the heart so it can be pumped to the lungs (to be oxygenated) and then (finally) it gets pumped to the rest of the body/your muscles.



> Anyway, I know there are some studies on this and I'll go find some. If you could do the same that would be great so we could both back-up our claims.


If you really want I can post links.... What in particular do you want the studies to be on?


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## fifteecent (Nov 27, 2004)

Hey Emma,

There's quite a bit of information on another bodybuilding website. Could I give you the URL so you could read over it and comment on the article?
Do you think I should post it on this messageboard? I'll send you a private message with the URL.


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## Emma-Leigh (Nov 27, 2004)

fifteecent said:
			
		

> Hey Emma,
> 
> There's quite a bit of information on another bodybuilding website. Could I give you the URL so you could read over it and comment on the article?
> Do you think I should post it on this messageboard? I'll send you a private message with the URL.



Hey fifteecent,

If you are talking about the abcbodybuilding articles on dextrose then I have already seen these articles.... They are the ones that everyone refers to when they talk of post-workout nutrition... But I do not agree with them.

If you want, there are some discussions of GI and post-workout recovery here:
At avant labs Here 

At BB.com Here

And at anabolicminds Here 

Here are some scientific articles on the insulin index of milk:
Milk, insulin index and milk protein 
Inconsistency between milk GI and II 

And the fact that there was no difference between milk and other CHO based recovery meals is here 

Anyway - Postworkout people take carbs for the following main reasons:
1. To blunt cortisol release
2. To increase uptake of nutrients into cells and restore glycogen
3. To increase uptake of amino acids into cells
4. For the direct anabolic action of insulin

Now - Don't get me wrong. Insulin (+ amino acids) post-exercise is important in having an anti-catabolic effect in your mucles... That is, it decreases cortisol, increases glycogen re-synthesis and helps with the uptake of nutrients into cells (reasons 1, 2 and 3)... BUT 1, 2 and 3 can be done with the level of insulin stimulated by the milk. Infact, 1 and 3 will occur without carbohydrates in the initial post-workout periods anyway as your whey will stimulate enough of an insulin response to do both of these.

As for the 'direct anabolic action'. It doesn't happen. Insulin, will not independently increase muscle anabolism directly unless it is infused at massive levels... So in terms of muscle growth, physiological levels will only do so much for directly effecting muscle growth (See this article: HERE ). 

Once insulin hits a certain level in the blood (which can be achieved with milk) it doesn't matter if you increase it further (as you would with dextrose/malto), more benefits will not be felt. 

Infact, in terms of muscle growth, PRE-WORKOUT meals are much more important than post-workout meals - as these are what dictate the plasma-amino acid levels during your training (see here and a discussion at anabolicminds herehere).

There is also another interesting discussion here 


So dextrose/malto gives you no advantages at all... They are 'empty calories' with no micronutrient value. They also result in a post-workout blood glucose level that is bascially hypoglycaemic in nature (due to the fact that the glucose is absorbed too rapidly, depleting the blood) and this is something that is not beneficial to either your health (you feel like crap) or your fitness goals (as muscle recovery is still occuring - and can not occur without nutrients in the blood)...

Milk, on the other hand, gives you vitamins, minerals and contains a good amount of protein as well... It also contains some slower digesting carbs and proteins which help with recovery into the hours after your workout.

Anyway - some more interesting articles are:
Here
Here
Here
Here


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## Randy (Nov 27, 2004)

I like smart women....  Emma, will you marry me?


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## big boi 1906 (Mar 28, 2006)

How's everyone?

I'm new to this board, but I'd like to jump in on this forum topic.
Okay, correct me if I'm wrong but, Milk is 80% Casein and 20% Whey.
So, wouldn't that make milk (skim at best) a bad pwo carb and protein.
The milk will gel in the stomach and gel the whey as well.  Thus slowing down the whey.  Probably wanna just do the whey and what ever carb you choose.
Also, dextrose/malto is used because it does not have to be processed by the liver to turn into glucose.  The insulin spike from glucose is not the end all to be all, but it is beneficial and insulin does carry aminos to the cells and counteracts cortisol.


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## Gordo (Mar 28, 2006)

So what's causing your insulin to rise if it's being 'gelled' in your stomach by the casein 30 mins after ingestion?






http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/74/1/96/F2


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## Emma-Leigh (Mar 28, 2006)

1. Casein PWO is actually a good thing - I made a post about it here if you are interested.

2. Milk is actually highly insulinogenic - the combination of the whey (esp the BCAAs) and the carbohydrates causes a wacky metabolic effect which raises insulin sufficiently for the needs PWO.


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## big boi 1906 (Mar 29, 2006)

Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> 1. Casein PWO is actually a good thing - I made a post about it here if you are interested.
> 
> 2. Milk is actually highly insulinogenic - the combination of the whey (esp the BCAAs) and the carbohydrates causes a wacky metabolic effect which raises insulin sufficiently for the needs PWO.



I read a pubmed article, (i'll post it later) that says that casein present with whey will slow down the absorption of they whey.  I guess it all depends on the amount of whey v.s. the amount of casein.  And that fiber slows it even further.  So what is true?  Does whey and casein both absorb at different rates or does the slowest protein determine absorption rate?


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## big boi 1906 (Mar 29, 2006)

Emma, thanks very much.  I would have to say that there is alot of "MIS-Information" going around and it is the majority of the bodybuilding information out there.  But bodybuilding lore' just can't beat scientific proof.

I do take BCAA's, 35 grams Dextrose and glutamine in water during the workout as well.  So as far as an outline of Pre, During, and good Post-workout meals, would you plz outline an example of each.  

I SWEAR THAT, I will never you dextrose again if you can show me a good pre, during, and post workout example meals.


Oh and by the way, I always believed that if you combined whey and casein together, and the whey acted independently of the casein, I would definenlty do that PWO and for some meal replacements as well.


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