# ?s re. mass building, shoulders and chest on same day



## cheesegrater (Mar 11, 2003)

i did the back mass building program with heavy deadlifts and realized there'd be no way i could do legs after that. So my new schedule is

Chest and shoulders
legs
bi's and tri's
back.....in that order

can i gain mass on both chest and shoulders doing them on the same day? If so what kind of shoulder exercises would you recommend?

thanx


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## Robboe (Mar 12, 2003)

Sure you can, brutha! Just don't go overboard with the shoulder sets.

And i'd reconsider doing arms the day before back. or doing four days in a row.


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## Dr. Pain (Mar 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cheesegrater *_
> 
> 
> can i gain mass on both chest and shoulders doing them on the same day? If so what kind of shoulder exercises would you recommend?
> ...





"If you hit two major bodyparts in one day, something ain't getting hit right!"  quote by WARLORD

Just HisHO 


DP


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## Robboe (Mar 12, 2003)

I take it your opinion is the same then, since you quoted him?


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## Dr. Pain (Mar 12, 2003)

Every so often I do chest/back to remind myself....lol

Is essence yes....in a purist POV I'd agree with the quote, but see exceptions all of the time! I think it depends at what stage of development you are at, the intensity you use, your genetics...etc.

We do Shoulders/chest/back/arms/ next week in one W/O as a precontest depletion (2-3 days out).....and altough I love Pain...I h8 that W/O


DP


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## Robboe (Mar 12, 2003)

Ah, see i don't really consider shoulders as a "major" bodypart.

It's sorta like the mid-range.

Back, chest and legs big.

Calves, arms, abs and forearms small.

Shoulders mid-way.

And since shoulders seem to get hit on pretty much every training session regardless of what part(s) you're doing, i think that it is possible to get the job done after a large bodypart.  (or before, if i was to do shoulders before back).

I do think a three-day split is a brilliant strategy (push, pull, legs).


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## Robboe (Mar 12, 2003)

But i'm not exactly what you'd call "big" so take that for what it's worth.


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## Dr. Pain (Mar 12, 2003)

All of my trainees get huge/scuplted shoulders, and since we devote a major W/O towards them, I call them a "Big" bodypart 

But to each their own...you have excellent  points.....and I have fairly decent shoulders..... I think I'll just keep them seperate 

Just wondering..I consider/hit traps w/shoulders.....would the total muscle w8 of the pecs, out-weigh the shoulders/traps?

(in a person w/shoulders/traps of course?)


DP


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## Robboe (Mar 12, 2003)

I don't understand the question, sorry.

I actually do traps at the end of my back workouts.

Incidentally, rowing for back and pressing for chest aside, i do no work for shoulders right now, save for 2-3 sets of side laterals. Partially because i had some bother with my right delts posterior head, but also i wasn't too concerned because i've had good results in the past doing nothing for delts. I do think dropping overhead pressing has helped - probably because they were getting a bit overtraining being hit directly or indirectly four days a week.


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## Arnold (Mar 12, 2003)

hmmm...DP not sure how you can consider shoulders a "major bodypart". Relatively speaking they're quite small to other muscle groups, and they get worked indirectly with all other upper body exercises.

I do shoulders and traps on a separate day only because it just fits into my routine this way, but I do not do much volume wise, and for delts I really only isolate the medial head. Anterior and posterior get worked so much via chest and back work.


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## Dr. Pain (Mar 12, 2003)

It's an effort to define big?

Length? Size? w8 (w8 of the muscle mass)?

Since you have a posterior delt...do you call that back?  I call them shoulders...and like I said....I equate/link traps w/shouder's (watch your traps when you work your shoulders if you are lean enough)  I have worked them w/back and know many that do, mainly because  our shoulder W/O's are so extensive...

I'd give the combo of traps/shouders a BIGGER rating over  BIG pecs for Size, length, and w8....JMHO   (and a good set of traps are thicker than most chests)


DP


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## Robboe (Mar 12, 2003)

Ah, i getcha now. You refer to the delts/traps collectively. Fair enough.

And again, i'm not sure what you were asking but i was referring to the rear delt on the right arm.

I know what you're referring to with traps during delt workouts, but i see that as stabilisation more than anything. Just like if you watch your biceps during benching or your triceps during bicep curls.


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## Arnold (Mar 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Dr. Pain *_
> It's an effort to define big?
> 
> Length? Size? w8 (w8 of the muscle mass)?
> ...



No, I am not arguing the definition of "big", I said relatively speaking the delts are not big, that means in comparison with other muscles.

I do not call a posterior delt "back", I said when you work back the posterior delt is worked in all back movements, just as the anterior delt is worked in all chest pressing movements. 

I agree if you're combining the traps and shoulders as one muscle group, which personally that is how I work them, although I do not see them as the same muscle group. If anything I consider the traps part of the back.


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## cheesegrater (Mar 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Sure you can, brutha! Just don't go overboard with the shoulder sets.
> 
> And i'd reconsider doing arms the day before back. or doing four days in a row.



i don't do 4 days in a row, that's spread out over the week


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## cheesegrater (Mar 12, 2003)

so can i do them both on the same day and expect mass results?


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## Arnold (Mar 12, 2003)

yes, you can work chest and shoulders on the same day, I recommend that you work chest first though.

Military presses and side laterals are my two favorites.


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## perfecto (Mar 12, 2003)

I found that when i was working out my chest/shoulders on the same day, by the time id finish with my chest and start hitting the shoulders, i would just suffer and not be able to lift at all, hence my lifts never went up and i lost motivation because i felt i wasnt progressing. But i guess they were still geting worked, its just a mental thing...


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## Arnold (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by perfecto *_
> I found that when i was working out my chest/shoulders on the same day, by the time id finish with my chest and start hitting the shoulders, i would just suffer and not be able to lift at all, hence my lifts never went up and i lost motivation because i felt i wasnt progressing. But i guess they were still geting worked, its just a mental thing...



you could say the same thing about working chest and tri's together, which is very common. 

personally I work chest & bi's, back & tri's and shoulders & traps on a separate day.


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## perfecto (Mar 13, 2003)

welll thats the routine i have now, what sort of exercises do you do for shoulders/traps?


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## Arnold (Mar 13, 2003)

Delts: Smith machine military presses and dumbbell laterals.

Traps: barbell shrugs.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

Why the smith?


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## Arnold (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Why the smith?



no, reason I just prefer it fo this movement, probably because I hurt my rotator cuffs last year and I am a bit scared of hurting them.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

Cool.

I hurt the back of my right delt a few months back and i've never done any overhead or incline pressing since then. I may do some smith inclines today actually.

Do you do the rotator cuff exercises?


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## Arnold (Mar 14, 2003)

yeah, actually I dropped incline presses completely from my work-out, and for around 9 months I dropped military presses as well, I just recently began using military's again on the Smith.

for rotator cuffs I do some shoulder rotation exercises to keep them loose/strong, and I ensure that I properly warm-up shoulders before any upper body work-out. So far, no problems!


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

Good good.


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## Scotty the Body (Mar 14, 2003)

I like the smith machines that are on a slight angle, they seem much more natural ROM than the 90 deg ones.


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## ectomorph141 (Mar 14, 2003)

I am not sure of the names, but I know there are 3 muscles in the shoulder.  Front, top, and rear.   I do a lot of military presses and lateral excersizes but realized I hardly ever work the rear shoulder muscle.  What is a good excersize for this.  I leave in 15 minutes to do shoulders.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

Anterior, medial and posterior heads.

Or front, side and back muscles of the shoulder.

Rear flyes hit the posterior head.

But then again, as does your rowing for your back.

I do neither front raises not rear flyes (not at the minute anyway).

When i do a "proper" delt workout i'd do some sort of overhead pressing and some form of side lateral.


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## Scotty the Body (Mar 14, 2003)

Rows to the neck and bent lateral raise work the rear delts well.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

Quick side note:

I know GP advocates rowing to the neck, but i would never do this.

Can you say "Shoulder impingement"?

Not necessarily everyone will have the problem, but i'm not willing to take the risk.


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## ectomorph141 (Mar 14, 2003)

The_Chicken_Daddy
Thanks for clearifying the different muscles.  what are rows to the neck?   I tried lateral raises lying on my stomach on a bench last week but it seemed to work my back more.  I guess I will just try the bent over ones.


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## Scotty the Body (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Quick side note:
> Can you say "Shoulder impingement"?



"shhhhhoulderrrrr Immmmpigemmment"  

Actually, I'm not a big fan of these either, I'll normally go with a press/standing and bent lateral raises for a "whole" shoulder workout.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Scotty the Body *_
> "shhhhhoulderrrrr Immmmpigemmment"



Didn't think you could.

You missed the 'n'.


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## Scotty the Body (Mar 14, 2003)




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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ectomorph141 *_
> The_Chicken_Daddy
> Thanks for clearifying the different muscles.  what are rows to the neck?   I tried lateral raises lying on my stomach on a bench last week but it seemed to work my back more.  I guess I will just try the bent over ones.




They're usually done on pulley rows where you pull the bar high, to your neck region.


Really focus on  working your rear delts when you do reat laterals or your traps will tend to take the brunt of the movement.

Next time try the bent laterals, and if you feel the same effect then just try working on the mind-muscle connection and focus on using your rear delts to life the weights instead of just trying make the weight move from point A to point B.


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