# Ex-CIA chief: Obama risks national security



## bio-chem (Apr 19, 2009)

Ex-CIA chief: Obama risks national security - CNN.com


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## bio-chem (Apr 19, 2009)

changing policy is one thing. the US does want a change in policy and that is why obama was elected. it seems like releasing these memos really does no good and only potential harm.


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## min0 lee (Apr 19, 2009)

He's a little too open....he tends to open his mouth a it too much.


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## IronAddict (Apr 19, 2009)

The Bush administrations only claim to fame was keeping America safe after 9/11. So, by using this criteria Obama is batting 1.000.

They're still trying to use fear tactics. I think the majority of people have now caught on to this.


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## CORUM (Apr 19, 2009)

*Presidential Comparison*

If George W. Bush had made a joke at the expense of the Special Olympics, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had given Tony Blair a set of inexpensive and useless (to Tony Blair's UK video formatting) 
DVDs, when Tony Blair had given him a thoughtful and historically significant gift, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had given the Queen of England an iPod containing videos of his speeches, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had visited  Austria and made reference to the non-existent "Austrian language," would you have brushed it off as a minor slip?

If George W. Bush had filled his cabinet and circle of advisers with people who cannot seem to keep current on their income taxes, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had ordered the firing of the CEO of a major corporation, even though he had no constitutional authority to do so, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had proposed to double the national debt, which had taken more than two centuries to accumulate, in one year, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had then proposed to double the debt again within 10 years, would you have approved?

So, tell me again, what is it about Obama that makes him so brilliant and impressive? 

Can't think of anything? Don't worry. He's done all this in 10 weeks -- so you'll have three years and nine-and-a-half months to come up with an answer.



this was emailed to me today


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## bio-chem (Apr 19, 2009)

i think mino might be able to answer you


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> i think mino might be able to answer you



Let's do this together. Thanks for placing the spotlight on me.

I never said Obama was perfect, far from it. 





> If George W. Bush had ordered the firing of the CEO of a major corporation, even though he had no constitutional authority to do so, would you have approved?




Fuck that CEO, where was the Constitution when they laid off all of those workers because of poor management.


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

*I thin*

History will look at Bush as the worst vice- President ever.


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

If I post the positive about Obama it doesn't mean I am rooting for him Bio....if I  posted  little positive about Bush it doesn't mean I am against him.

Fact is there is little positive to post about Bush.


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)




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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

> If George W. Bush had given the Queen of England an iPod containing videos of his speeches, would you have approved?



We're lucky it wasn't bootleg DVD's, he is a brother you know.


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

I will say this....it takes a Man to admit when his enemy does something right.

A coward cries in a corner and denies his foe does any good.


When the Red Sox beat the Yankees at the Stadium it was like a knife in my heart.....I congradulated them for being the better team....doesn't make me like them more but you have to accept when someone does something good....

The guy orders the hit on the Pirates and people either downplay it or don't care...just an example.

To many boys here....too many crybabies.

You are boys.


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

CORUM said:


> If George W. Bush had bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia, would you have approved?


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

> If George W. Bush had filled his cabinet and circle of advisers with people who cannot seem to keep current on their income taxes, would you have approved?



Look at how many at the GOP are facing charges of corruption...


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## tallcall (Apr 20, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> We're lucky it wasn't bootleg DVD's, he is a brother you know.



Too bad it was a copy of "Soul Plane" - not exactly our best theatrical release.


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

min0 lee said:


>



Wait! Didn't Bush kiss him!!


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> i think mino might be able to answer you



The medication is screwing my mind up.....but is this what  you want?


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## lnvanry (Apr 20, 2009)

Maybe Hayden is upset he lost his job?


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

> White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel dismissed Hayden's assertion that releasing the memos had undermined U.S. intelligence efforts by giving al Qaeda critical new information.
> 
> "One of the reasons the president was willing to let this information out was that already the information was out," he said on ABC's "This Week."





> The memos said, among other things, that interrogation tactics such as waterboarding, sleep deprivation and slapping did not violate laws against torture absent the intent to cause severe pain.




All of this information came out during Bushes watch, am I missing something here?


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## bio-chem (Apr 20, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> Fuck that CEO, where was the Constitution when they laid off all of those workers because of poor management.



The constitution nor the bill of rights ensures the right to proper management of a company. when you figure out a good way to fix that you may have reached nirvana


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## bio-chem (Apr 20, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> The medication is screwing my mind up.....but is this what  you want?



this is exactly what I wanted. I like issues where both sides are shown.


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> The constitution nor the bill of rights ensures the right to proper management of a company. when you figure out a good way to fix that you may have reached nirvana



That's my point.

This is not about the bill of rights.....it's about a man doing what the board failed to do....fire the one person responsible for the failure of GM.


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

Reagan fired all of those Air traffic controllers.


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## IronAddict (Apr 20, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> I will say this....it takes a Man to admit when his enemy does something right.
> 
> A coward cries in a corner and denies his foe does any good.
> 
> ...



Not only are you a gentle(person), you are a philosipher as well!

That bit about the bootleg dvd's was just too funny. I just sit back and take my ease and laugh my ass off!


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## bio-chem (Apr 20, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> That's my point.
> 
> This is not about the bill of rights.....it's about a man doing what the board failed to do....fire the one person responsible for the failure of GM.



your endorsing a very dangerous precedent here.

one man is not responsible for the failure of GM.


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> your endorsing a very dangerous precedent here.
> 
> one man is not responsible for the failure of GM.



No, you are right.

But who is the face of the company? Who is the head honcho?
The same way he gets bonuses for doing a good job I think he should also take the blame.

He's been there for a long time.


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## lnvanry (Apr 20, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> No, you are right.
> 
> But who is the face of the company? Who is the head honcho?
> The same way he gets bonuses for doing a good job I think he should also take the blame.
> ...




You have to include the board as well as the executives...both are responsible IMHO.


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

lnvanry said:


> You have to include the board as well as the executives...both are responsible IMHO.



No doubt, but that's why the board elects a CEO, not just to be the central voice but to take the fall...more like a PR man/ Super manager.


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## Chubby (Apr 20, 2009)




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## bio-chem (Apr 20, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> No doubt, but that's why the board elects a CEO, not just to be the central voice but to take the fall...more like a PR man/ Super manager.



that decision should not be coming from obama IMO. it should be coming from the stock holders


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> that decision should not be coming from obama IMO. it should be coming from the stock holders



Not when they are asking for a bailout. Right?
I'm sure he would still have a job if they would have tried to fix their problem and not ask for handouts.


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## bio-chem (Apr 20, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> Not when they are asking for a bailout. Right?
> I'm sure he would still have a job if they would have tried to fix their problem and not ask for handouts.



as far as the bailout goes I think the government should have let them crumble.


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> as far as the bailout goes I think the government should have let them crumble.



They didn't want that, instead they went after the big guy.


You want them to crumble? 
Why? What about all of the thousands of hard workers?  From marketing to the dealers?


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## bio-chem (Apr 20, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> They didn't want that, instead they went after the big guy.
> 
> 
> You want them to crumble?
> Why? What about all of the thousands of hard workers?  From marketing to the dealers?



you mean what about capitalism? my company doesn't get a bailout if we go out of business. why are GM's employees more valuable than me? I'm a hard worker too.


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

No, they aren't more valuable....maybe just bigger.
We still get hurt regardless....it's really a no win situation.


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)




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## bio-chem (Apr 20, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> No, they aren't more valuable....maybe just bigger.
> We still get hurt regardless....it's really a no win situation.



I think there could be a win in all of this. at least in the long run. a bailout artificially allows a dead company to survive. Without one a natural correction would have come about. it would have been painful, but i think the companies that emerged would have come out stronger and more able to compete. I don't feel GM is any more capable of competing in todays market than they were last year. I don't see things improving. A bailout keeps the status quo. the status quo was shit. why do we want to protect shit?


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

*In CIA visit, Obama defends interrogation memo release*

(CNN) -- President Obama, visiting CIA headquarters Monday, defended his decision to release Bush-era memos on interrogation tactics, saying the country will ultimately be stronger as a result.


President Obama said Monday that America "is stronger and more secure" under the "power of our values."

The president's remarks came in the wake of criticism from a former CIA chief and others that his decision compromised national security and encouraged terrorist groups such as al Qaeda.

Obama also met with CIA Director Leon Panetta, Deputy Director Stephen Kappes and other officials, and talked to employees about the importance of the agency's mission to national security.

The president asserted that he had released the documents primarily because of the "exceptional circumstance that surrounded these memos. ... The covert nature of the information [in them] had [already] been compromised."

Obama added that he ended the controversial interrogation techniques mentioned in the memos because the United States "is stronger and more secure" when it can deploy both power and the "power of our values, including the rule of law.".......... more.............


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## KelJu (Apr 20, 2009)

min0 lee said:


>






Nice propaganda there corum. whoever wrote that shit should have watched the news a little bit more.


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

KelJu said:


> Nice propaganda there corum. whoever wrote that shit should have watched the news a little bit more.




It just shows people how partisan they really are.


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## min0 lee (Apr 20, 2009)

OK....Obama bows to the Arab...displeasure, I can understand.

Bush holds a man hand, kisses him and he got a free pass here...


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## CORUM (Apr 20, 2009)

KELJU you crazy, EVERYONE knows we helped out Saddam during the iraq/iran war...... NOTHING new!! holding of hands is part of their culture, bowing down...... COME ON i get on my knees for NO man. he represents the United States and he is bowing, HELL NO!!!


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## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

That makes everything better.


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## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

Cheney made a good point last night.. that Obama selectively released memos on what was done to the prisoners, but not the results & knowledge that was gained.

Say what you will about cheney (I know at least one dope will make this about Cheney), but he makes a valid point.  Why not release all of the information about it?


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## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

Nothing productive or positive ever comes from torture. Everyone knows when a man is tortured he will say anything his torturers wants to hear. Just ask John McCain that!

As far as big Dick Cheney goes, don't you think if they had positive information, 'he would have leaked it himself'. just like the Valerie Plame fiasco and anything that would have benefited him.... 

Come on, this man and that whole Admin. were the biggest liars ever. Pinnochio had nothing on them boys....


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## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

IronAddict said:


> Nothing productive or positive comes from torture. Everyone knows when a man is tortured he will say anything his torturers wants to hear. Just ask John McCain that!
> 
> As far as big Dick Cheney goes, don't you think if they had positive information, 'he would have leaked it himself'. just like the Valerie Plame fiasco and anything that would have benefited him....
> 
> Come on, this man and that whole Admin. were the biggest liars ever. Pinnochio had nothing on them boys....



You sidestepped the entire issue. *Why didn't Obama release the results of the interrogations?*  If you're right & nothing was gained, it would have been released for further proof.

 If it came out that we received valuable information that saved lives, would you change your mind?

This was a political move to continue to ride the anti-Bush wave, damn the consequences.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> holding of hands is part of their culture, bowing down...... COME ON i get on my knees for NO man. he represents the United States and he is bowing, HELL NO!!!



You wouldn't bow down but you would hold his hand?  Ghey.


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## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> You sidestepped the entire issue. *Why didn't Obama release the results of the interrogations?*  If you're right & nothing was gained, it would have been released for further proof.
> 
> If it came out that we received valuable information that saved lives, would you change your mind?
> 
> This was a political move to continue to ride the anti-Bush wave, damn the consequences.



And why doesn't he release the tapes of the torture that went on ? Because they were destroyed. These guys are not going to further incriminate eachother just like Internal Affairs never finds a cop guilty of Police brutality.

How many innocent lives were lost in Iraq and Afghanistan, Im talking women, children and people just trying to live their pathetic existence, hundreds of thousands, so please don't make this argument, unless you feel American lives our more valuable than any other human beings. But lets not forget our service men and Women...

How you  continue to stick up for these war criminals is beyond me. This whole shitty episode in our lives was based on Machiavellianism, ask Karl Rove that.


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## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

IronAddict said:


> And why doesn't he release the tapes of the torture that went on ? Because they were destroyed. These guys are not going to further incriminate eachother just like Internal Affairs never finds a cop guilty of Police brutality.
> 
> How many innocent lives were lost in Iraq and Afghanistan, Im talking women, children and people just trying to live their pathetic existence, hundreds of thousands, so please don't make this argument, unless you feel American lives our more valuable than any other human beings.
> 
> How you  continue to stick up for these war criminals is beyond me. This whole shitty episode in our lives was based on Machiavellianism, ask Karl Rove that.



This was all pulled out of your ass.

Cheney is calling to have these "destroyed" memos released.

Hundreds of thousands? Bullshit.


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## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> This was all pulled out of your ass.
> 
> Cheney is calling to have these "destroyed" memos released.



And you say this why ?    Because it's a fact, and Republicans never let facts cloud the issue.


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## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

_Cheney said he's asked that the documents be declassified because he has remained silent on the confidential information, but he knows how successful the interrogation process was and wants the rest of the country to understand. 

"I haven't talked about it, but I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw, that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country," Cheney said. "I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was."_


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## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

Dale Mabry said:


> You wouldn't bow down but you would hold his hand?  Ghey.



ok a little culture lesson for you, since it seems half of you have never traveled around the world and had to learn things. holding hands is a sign of trust and friendship, getting on your knees and bowing is a sign you serve them. holding hands in our culture may seem GHEY to you, but not in theirs. but let's face it everyone thinks obama can do no wrong and he is great next abe lincoln yadayadayadayada, and fuck bush he was an idiot couldnt do anything blahblahblah so endsless talk. im done


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## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

Calling it "torture" is beyond pathetic to me.  I would personally twist off a terrorist's nut if my child's life were at stake.  I can't understand how any parent wouldn't.

A caterpillar?


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## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> This was all pulled out of your ass.
> 
> Cheney is calling to have these "destroyed" memos released.
> 
> Hundreds of thousands? Bullshit.



You said, "some sap was going to make this about Cheney". Like he still has the pull to do this, come on man.

He's the one talking out of his ass!


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## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

IronAddict said:


> You said, "some sap was going to make this about Cheney". Like he still has the pull to do this, come on man.
> 
> He's the one talking out of his ass!



Based on what?  With your higher knowledge?  You have no clue what you're talking about.


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## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

i like how all these AMERICANS give a shit what happened to these sorry ass terrorists. noone is talking about what happened to those americans that were taken and beheaded on TV. or when the war first kicked off and that group with jessica lynch was taken. how the men were sat facing each other and they cut their dick off and stuck it in the others mouth and let them watch each other bleed out with a dick in their mouth. which i seen on arab TV.


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## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> i like how all these AMERICANS give a shit what happened to these sorry ass terrorists. noone is talking about what happened to those americans that were taken and beheaded on TV. or when the war first kicked off and that group with jessica lynch was taken. how the men were sat facing each other and they cut their dick off and stuck it in the others mouth and let them watch each other bleed out with a dick in their mouth. which i seen on arab TV.



If it wasn't so sad it be funny.  Our goverment is run by these people.


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## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> Based on what?  With your higher knowledge?  You have no clue what you're talking about.



Just look up the war casualties.


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## Hench (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> *Calling it "torture" is beyond pathetic to me*.  I would personally twist off a terrorist's nut if my child's life were at stake.  I can't understand how any parent wouldn't.



Agreed, it wasnt even close to being torture. They were never in any physical danger. It is a mistake to prevent the use of these measures in future.


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## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

yeah instead of "torture" or other methods to get info out of a terrorist, we should instead ask them nicely while we whipe their ass and massage their balls. yeah they will tell us all about trying to blow up different parts of the US then.


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## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> i like how all these AMERICANS give a shit what happened to these sorry ass terrorists. noone is talking about what happened to those americans that were taken and beheaded on TV. or when the war first kicked off and that group with jessica lynch was taken. how the men were sat facing each other and they cut their dick off and stuck it in the others mouth and let them watch each other bleed out with a dick in their mouth. which i seen on arab TV.




And lets not forget how the Bush admin. tried to twist and bend the whole Lynch affair to  manipulate the masses to try and sell this war. obviously this worked on some, but not all. Just like with Pat Tillman.


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## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

IronAddict said:


> And lets not forget how the Bush admin. tried to twist and bend the whole Lynch affair to  manipulate the masses to try and sell this war. obviously this worked on some, but not all. Just like with Pat Tillman.



I never understood this brand of politics.  You have no answer for one thing, so you counter it with something the other side did.  How does this answer anything?

Questions about Obama come up & all anyone on the left does is go back to the Bush bashing.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> ok a little culture lesson for you, since it seems half of you have never traveled around the world and had to learn things. holding hands is a sign of trust and friendship, getting on your knees and bowing is a sign you serve them. holding hands in our culture may seem GHEY to you, but not in theirs. but let's face it everyone thinks obama can do no wrong and he is great next abe lincoln yadayadayadayada, and fuck bush he was an idiot couldnt do anything blahblahblah so endsless talk. im done



I am sure it is a cultural thing, I have no doubt about that.  I like how you adjust the facts to your liking.  Obama's gesture is just a non-issue drummed up by Fox news and such.  So, since you were kind enough to give me a culture lesson, I will give you one.  I have bowed to many people, when I wrestled, i always shook hands and bowed.  Sometimes I bow my head when I meet people, maybe not Obama low, but I occasionally bow.  Chinese people bow to show respect, and it has nothing to do with serving anyone.  As you said, the Saudis do it to show they are subservient.  The final cultural lesson I will give you is that Obama is American, he is not Saudi, and I am certain he is not Arab.  He bowed his head, so what?  Just because that is the way they comprehend it in Saudi Arabia doesn't mean that was the intent.  Stop analyzing dick-sucking and hand-holding and stick to policy, it is obvious from the last election that the GOP fear-mongering is a worthless tactic these days.



> i like how all these AMERICANS give a shit what happened to these sorry ass terrorists. noone is talking about what happened to those americans that were taken and beheaded on TV. or when the war first kicked off and that group with jessica lynch was taken. how the men were sat facing each other and they cut their dick off and stuck it in the others mouth and let them watch each other bleed out with a dick in their mouth. which i seen on arab TV.



And my final lesson...What separates us from them is morality, if we throw that away what else do we have?  Dogs roll around in shit, that doesn't mean I am going to roll around in shit too to make myself feel better about it.  A moral person does something because it is the right thing to do, and doesn't vary their morality based on what the other person is doing.  When we drop to their level, we show them we are no better.  It's easy to have morals when things are going well, but when adversity slams your dick in the dirt, the way you act shows who you truly are.  I thought the GOP was the party of morality.  

And just to point out, i disagree with a lot of what Obama has been doing, but I feel quite positively we are moving in the right direction, or at least a better direction than the one we were moving in.  In 4 years, if a GOP candidate can show fiscal responsibility all while staying the fuck out of people's personal business, i will kindly float back across that line and vote GOP again.  Honestly, I don't see it happening the way things have been going since January, all the discussion has been about bowing and how many church services he has been to and nothing about policy.


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## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

Dale Mabry said:


> And my final lesson...What separates us from them is morality, if we throw that away what else do we have?  Dogs roll around in shit, that doesn't mean I am going to roll around in shit too to make myself feel better about it.  A moral person does something because it is the right thing to do, and doesn't vary their morality based on what the other person is doing.  When we drop to their level, we show them we are no better.  It's easy to have morals when things are going well, but when adversity slams your dick in the dirt, the way you act shows who you truly are.  I thought the GOP was the party of morality.



A terrorist had bombs strapped to your wife & children.. you take the "moral high ground".  Tell me what's involved in that?  Tell me how you talk down a man who had been raised since birth to hate & has no respect for life.


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## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> I never understood this brand of politics.  You have no answer for one thing, so you counter it with something the other side did.  How does this answer anything?
> 
> Questions about Obama come up & all anyone on the left does is go back to the Bush bashing.



Republican says what ?

Shirley you jest!


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> A terrorist had bombs strapped to your wife & children.. you take the "moral high ground".  Tell me what's involved in that?  Tell me how you talk down a man who had been raised since birth to hate & has no respect for life.



Oh, I'd shoot his ass in a second.  I wouldn't pull his toenails out one by one, waterboard him, then attach a car battery to his testicles.  That seems a little excessive and a bit too pricey for my tastes.  I may, however, consider making a naked terrorist pyramid and have some dyke take a picture next to it with her thumb up.


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## KelJu (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> KELJU you crazy, EVERYONE knows we helped out Saddam during the iraq/iran war...... NOTHING new!! holding of hands is part of their culture, bowing down...... COME ON i get on my knees for NO man. he represents the United States and he is bowing, HELL NO!!!



I don't know what you are talking about in the post above. I was laughing at the horse shit internet propaganda you posted about what what happen if Bush did this or that. 

A bow there is a handshake here. Don't be so ignorant. Bowing to someone doesn't mean you have to suck their dick or anything, it is simply a cultural gesture. 

"i get on my knees for no man" Rofl, sounds like more of the homophobic stuff spoke of in another thread.


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## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

Dale Mabry said:


> Oh, I'd shoot his ass in a second.  I wouldn't pull his toenails out one by one, waterboard him, then attach a car battery to his testicles.  That seems a little excessive and a bit too pricey for my tastes.  I may, however, consider making a naked terrorist pyramid and have some dyke take a picture next to it with her thumb up.



But what if pooring water on his head or attaching a car battery to his balls saved their lives?  

I just don't understand why we are worried about the psychological damage we do to someone who would happily kill as many Americans as they could.

I can't see how anyone would offer up their family as a sacrifice to the "moral high ground". But that's just the problem... suits in Washington whose families are safe in their mansions aren't the ones that are going to be killed.

They are cutting off heads, and we can't put a caterpillar in their rooms... it's fucking pathetic & is going to cost lives.

If Obama really thinks this makes us safer, he's an idiot.  

"Hey Mohammed.. Americans stopped pouring water on our heads, maybe we shouldn't saw of this American's head on TV"


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## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

KelJu said:


> A bow there is a handshake here. Don't be so ignorant. Bowing to someone doesn't mean you have to suck their dick or anything, it is simply a cultural gesture.
> 
> .



did you see how low he bowed? it looked like he wanted to suck his dick. I'm ok with our president showing respect to another leader, but when i saw the video of this it did not look like that to me. this looked like an inferior bowing to a superior and that is not kosher in my mind for my president.


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## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> But what if pooring water on his head or attaching a car battery to his balls saved their lives?
> 
> I just don't understand why we are worried about the psychological damage we do to someone who would happily kill as many Americans as they could.
> 
> ...



You're making it sound as if the war in Iraq was just. That is where I'm coming from. Please elucidate what any Iraqi has done to harm this country or its citizens.

These guys are fighting a guerilla war to try to defeat a superior force to try and save their homeland, just like we did in our Revolution, do you remember this!


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## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

IronAddict said:


> You're making it sound as if the war in Iraq was just. That is where I'm coming from. Please elucidate what any Iraqi has done to harm this country or its citizens.
> 
> These guys are fighting a guerilla war to try to defeat a superior force to try and save their homeland, just like we did in our Revolution, do you remember this!



 that is nothing close to what is happening in iraq right now. comparing iraq it our revolution shows a severe lack of understanding about what is happening in the middle east right now.


----------



## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

IronAddict said:


> apparantly not!



I'm not getting into another debate about why were are in Iraq.  We'll never agree so it's pointless.  If you ever want to discuss the issue at hand, let me know.


----------



## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> that is nothing close to what is happening in iraq right now. comparing iraq it our revolution shows a severe lack of understanding about what is happening in the middle east right now.



Sure it is. They're fighting to protect their homeland from an invading occupying force aren't they.


----------



## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> I'm not getting into another debate about why were are in Iraq.  We'll never agree so it's pointless.  If you ever want to discuss the issue at hand, let me know.



I thought I was.

You say I have no answers.


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> i like how all these AMERICANS give a shit what happened to these sorry ass terrorists. noone is talking about what happened to those americans that were taken and beheaded on TV. or when the war first kicked off and that group with jessica lynch was taken. how the men were sat facing each other and they cut their dick off and stuck it in the others mouth and let them watch each other bleed out with a dick in their mouth. which i seen on arab TV.



My problem with this is that many of them weren't terrorist.

This is a fact.


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> did you see how low he bowed? it looked like he wanted to suck his dick. I'm ok with our president showing respect to another leader, but when i saw the video of this it did not look like that to me. this looked like an inferior bowing to a superior and that is not kosher in my mind for my president.



Do you have the link?


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

YouTube - Obama bows down to Saudi King Abdullah


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> YouTube - Obama bows down to Saudi King Abdullah



That's it?
That's nothing.


----------



## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

Phhhhhh!


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

Amazing....Bow...kiss...holding hands....

I think staying within the thread topic you have a better argument....you really do.

I wonder if he winked at him.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> That's it?
> That's nothing.



I disagree. That was not the bow of an equal.


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

Should we hire Kenneth Starr to do an investigation?

Is there a height requirement to bow to other people, I wouldn't know myself....I am sure niether did he.

Non-issue.


----------



## Dale Mabry (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> But what if pooring water on his head or attaching a car battery to his balls saved their lives?
> 
> I just don't understand why we are worried about the psychological damage we do to someone who would happily kill as many Americans as they could.
> 
> ...



Why do you keep talking about caterpillars?


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> Should we hire Kenneth Starr to do an investigation?
> 
> Is there a height requirement to bow to other people, I wouldn't know myself....I am sure niether did he.
> 
> Non-issue.



i can see why people don't care about this, it is a small thing in the grand scale. my issue with it is that combined with all of his rhetoric I don't think he is really showing the office the respect it deserves. 

if a man taller than you walked up to you, took your hand, bent at the waist low enough to put his face in your crotch that body language means something. regardless of whether you want to admit it or not.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

Dale Mabry said:


> Why do you keep talking about caterpillars?



part of the "torture" was to put a bug into the cell of a prisoner  because he was apparently afraid of bugs


----------



## Dale Mabry (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> i can see why people don't care about this, it is a small thing in the grand scale. my issue with it is that combined with all of his rhetoric I don't think he is really showing the office the respect it deserves.
> 
> if a man taller than you walked up to you, took your hand, bent at the waist low enough to put his face in your crotch that body language means something. regardless of whether you want to admit it or not.



Honestly, to me, it would mean that he is saying hi.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

Dale Mabry said:


> Honestly, to me, it would mean that he is saying hi.


----------



## Dale Mabry (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> part of the "torture" was to put a bug into the cell of a prisoner  because he was apparently afraid of bugs



I would not consider that torture, I do, however, find it hilarious.  Are you sure it's not an episode of Maury you are talking about?


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

LOL, I saw that one...unreal!


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

Dale Mabry said:


> I would not consider that torture, I do, however, find it hilarious.  Are you sure it's not an episode of Maury you are talking about?



i don't consider that torture as well, our president however does. this was part of the memos he released showing what a bad guy bush was and how his policies have undermined the US.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

Dale Mabry said:


> Honestly, to me, it would mean that he is saying hi.



you must have some very interesting conversations


----------



## Dale Mabry (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> i don't consider that torture as well, our president however does. this was part of the memos he released showing what a bad guy bush was and how his policies have undermined the US.



That's gay as shit, Maury did that to a fat chick who was afraid of chickens.  Another strike for Obama, anyone who's an enemy of Maury is an enemy of mine.


----------



## KelJu (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> YouTube - Obama bows down to Saudi King Abdullah





Are you kidding me? That bothers you?


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

KelJu said:


> Are you kidding me? That bothers you?



I've already said on the grand scale it is pretty small. In my opinion that body language shows obama believes he is beneath the king of saud. and the other countries of the world read that message loud and clear even if americans didn't


----------



## Little Wing (Apr 21, 2009)

the bow was just proper etiquette. jeesh. maybe showing other leaders in the would that we are willing to have some respect for them is in our favor. you catch more flies with honey, doesn't mean you think the flies are superior.


----------



## Dale Mabry (Apr 21, 2009)

KelJu said:


> Are you kidding me? That bothers you?



The more I think about it, it kind of bothers me as well.  I feel we should deal with this the only way it can be dealt with: A constitutional amendment banning all bowing at the waist by any upper level cabinet member or politician.  This needs to be somehow written in to the constitution, at the very least.


----------



## Hench (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> i can see why people don't care about this, it is a small thing in the grand scale. my issue with it is that combined with all of his rhetoric I don't think he is really showing the office the respect it deserves.
> 
> if a man taller than you walked up to you, took your hand, bent at the waist low enough to put his face in your crotch that body language means something. regardless of whether you want to admit it or not.



He is trying to make up for the damage Bush did to your reputation. Trust me, the rest of the world is not particularly fond of America atm. However, in Obama you have a chance to change that, dont fuck it up.


----------



## Little Wing (Apr 21, 2009)

maybe he was just showing people he doesn't have a stick up his ass.  it's a really good change.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

Little Wing said:


> the bow was just proper etiquette. jeesh. maybe showing other leaders in the would that we are willing to have some respect for them is in our favor. you catch more flies with honey, doesn't mean you think the flies are superior.



the king of saud did not bow to obama like that. this was a breech of etiquette? you want to tell me how much respect for the king of saud we need to have? we have not in any way shown disrespect to that king in the past.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> He is trying to make up for the damage Bush did to your reputation. Trust me, the rest of the world is not particularly fond of America atm. However, in Obama you have a chance to change that, dont fuck it up.



i don't really give a damn what the rest of the world wants to be pissed off at us about at this particular moment. there are plenty of pictures showing bush holding hands with the king of saud. our relationship there has never been in jeopardy.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

DALE MABRY, i will leave you with one question. have you ever been over there a shoot one of those little dipshits with a bomb strapped to them??? have you had those fuckers blow you up?? did you have a 7 year old throw a grenade at you?? have you actually even been there??? if not then your sympathy for them is of ignorance, and you know nothing about any of it except what you see on the news. so for all of you saying what was done was too harsh, go over there and learn first hand what needs to be done. you talk a big game, about "i'll shoot them, waterboard them, pull toenails out" make yourself feel hard until you actually have to do those things and then live with the dreams every night, and come back paranoid about everything, and you don't feel safe EVER. tell me how it is??? oh wait you don't live with that??? and then come back and have some arabic sympathising bitch, whore call you a baby killer. as of now i do not see to many people on here that have first hand knowledge about anything, yet they talk out of their ass!!!! IGNORANCE


----------



## Little Wing (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> the king of saud did not bow to obama like that. this was a breech of etiquette? you want to tell me how much respect for the king of saud we need to have? we have not in any way shown disrespect to that king in the past.




you're making a big deal out of nothing.


----------



## Little Wing (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> i don't really give a damn what the rest of the world wants to be pissed off at us about at this particular moment.



that's what gets Americans killed. you'd be a terrible leader if you didn't care that you caused the world to hate your people.


----------



## Little Wing (Apr 21, 2009)

walk softly, but carry a big stick.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

i dont see obama carrying a big stick..... sorry


----------



## Little Wing (Apr 21, 2009)

i think improving our relationships in the world is a very good thing but it'd be a mistake not to be able to immediately and completely kick ass _if_ and when we need to.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

i don't see obama doing it. just like clinton, when things got difficult in somalia he pulled everyone out and the mission did not get completed. to completely KICK ASS, there is somethings that have to be done that the general public will not like or approve of, therefore they do not need to know about it. and if they find out they need to understand things have to be done that the average person WILL NOT understand or have to live with. so until people understand what it takes to KICK ASS, they have a pointless argument


----------



## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

You mean like Reagan did in Beirut, after our Marine Barracks were bombed, right!

Geesh, I give up!


----------



## Chubby (Apr 21, 2009)

Why do we always have to look at others as our enemies. We already have more enemies than we need. Can't we just find a common ground and build a friendship on it?


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

just cause majority was pulled out in Beirut, doesn't mean Reagan didn't have something done. There are things that happen ALL the time that you will never know about.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

Little Wing said:


> that's what gets Americans killed. you'd be a terrible leader if you didn't care that you caused the world to hate your people.





so 9-11 happened because the world hated the US which was bush's fault? pearl harbor happened because the japanese hated the US caused by an intense hatred of FDR?

They will like us when we win.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

chobby192 said:


> Why do we always have to look at others as our enemies. We already have more enemies than we need. Can't we just find a common ground and build a friendship on it?



Americans don't look at others as our enemies. just the ones who want to kill us.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

i think what a lot of people are failing to realize, they do not care who our leader is.... THEY HATE OUR WAY OF LIFE!!!! the freedoms that women have to wear what they want, even come on a forum to speak their mind, what we watch on tv, the music we listen to, everything!!! and little wing they REALLY hate the freedoms our women have.


----------



## Hench (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> so 9-11 happened because the world hated the US which was bush's fault? pearl harbor happened because the japanese hated the US caused by an intense hatred of FDR?
> 
> They will like us when we win.



No, not Bush's fault, but yes they did it because they hate america. Obama has a chance to change that and make you country safer. If you cant see this or dont want it to happen then your an idiot.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

moondog..... like i said before, IT IS NOT OUR LEADER, THEY HATE AMERICANS NOT JUST THE LEADER.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> No, not Bush's fault, but yes they did it because they hate america. Obama has a chance to change that and make you country safer. If you cant see this or dont want it to happen then your an idiot.



you absolutely do not understand the dynamics of the situation if you are posting ridiculous stuff like this. The islamic extremists responsible for the fighting in afghanistan and iraq and who carried out the 9-11 attacks are the equivalent of the KKK. There is no reasoning with this hatred, there is no playing nice.
The KKK's numbers have shrunk here in america, their influence is waning. That is what has to happen in the middle east for their to be peace/prosperity for those people.
A law just got passed in afghanistan that some believed legalized rape of married women by their husbands. I read that 20% of the population follows the sect that was able to pass that law. can one imagine what would happen if 20% of the US population was card carrying members of the KKK? that is what we are dealing with in the middle east. The US has done wrong in the middle east. not all of our decisions have been correct. chalk up killing sadam and ousting the taliban in the "win" column when you are keeping score though.


----------



## Hench (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> moondog..... like i said before, IT IS NOT OUR LEADER, THEY HATE AMERICANS NOT JUST THE LEADER.



I believe thats what I said in my last post, why are you repeating it back to me?


----------



## Hench (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> you absolutely do not understand the dynamics of the situation if you are posting ridiculous stuff like this. The islamic extremists responsible for the fighting in afghanistan and iraq and who carried out the 9-11 attacks are the equivalent of the KKK. There is no reasoning with this hatred, there is no playing nice.
> The KKK's numbers have shrunk here in america, their influence is waning. That is what has to happen in the middle east for their to be peace/prosperity for those people.
> A law just got passed in afghanistan that some believed legalized rape of married women by their husbands. I read that 20% of the population follows the sect that was able to pass that law. can one imagine what would happen if 20% of the US population was card carrying members of the KKK? that is what we are dealing with in the middle east. The US has done wrong in the middle east. not all of our decisions have been correct. chalk up killing sadam and ousting the taliban in the "win" column when you are keeping score though.



Agreed on that law, I have been reading out it and its absolute horse shit. Obama should have done more to prevent it, the fact he didnt pisses me off. 

However, what does any of that have to do with the rest of the world (not just certain middle eastern countries) have a better image of America as a whole? Do you actually think that would be a bad thing?


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

no you said obama has a chance to change it, are you saying he is going to change our way of life?? caus eit doesn't matter what political BS he tries to do, because the leader does not matter, it is our way of life. he can't change anything.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> Agreed on that law, I have been reading out it and its absolute horse shit. Obama should have done more to prevent it, the fact he didnt pisses me off.
> 
> However, what does any of that have to do with the rest of the world (not just certain middle eastern countries) have a better image of America as a whole? Do you actually think that would be a bad thing?





are you a US citizen? your sig says ireland so i will assume you are not.

you are pissed off that obama, the leader of a foreign country that you are not a citizen of did not do more to interfere in the laws of another country you are not a citizen of? but bush should rightfully be hated by the world for his interference? talk about irony.

when i said i could give a damn what the rest of the world thinks i meant it. The french aren't trying to kill me and it is in their self interest to trade with me so other than that i don't care


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> i dont see obama carrying a big stick..... sorry



I don't know.....he is black you know....


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

mino (or lee) you would think of that!!!


----------



## Hench (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> are you a US citizen? your sig says ireland so i will assume you are not.
> 
> you are pissed off that obama, the leader of a foreign country that you are not a citizen of did not do more to interfere in the laws of another country you are not a citizen of? but bush should rightfully be hated by the world for his interference? talk about irony.
> 
> when i said i could give a damn what the rest of the world thinks i meant it. The french aren't trying to kill me and it is in their self interest to trade with me so other than that i don't care



Sorry, I know as a typical american you find it difficult to care about anything other than yourself. And there is a huge difference between starting a war and trying to protect human rights. 

Also, it wont be in the French interest to trade with you for much longer, in 15years time you will not be the super power that you are now. Well see how little you care then.


----------



## Hench (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> no you said obama has a chance to change it, are you saying he is going to change our way of life?? caus eit doesn't matter what political BS he tries to do, because the leader does not matter, it is our way of life. he can't change anything.



What the hell are you talking about? When did way of life come into this? Im talking about the worlds perception of america!


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

moondogg go to the bar, have a drink and don't worry about American affairs


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> are you a US citizen? your sig says ireland so i will assume you are not.



Does it really make a difference...when we the USA stick our noses in other countries ....


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> moondogg go to the bar, have a drink and don't worry about American affairs



 Not all Irish drink....water that is...

Funny but this discussion is about foreign relations, beside it's nice to hear what the other side has to say about us.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> What the hell are you talking about? When did way of life come into this? Im talking about the worlds perception of america!



well since you want to know about our enemies, THEY HATE OUR WAY OF LIFE!!!! that's where way of life comes in, you wouldn't understand. they do not like america for our lifestyle, and what our country means. i do not know how many times i have to repeat myself before you get it. it doesn't matter what person we have in office


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

mino he doesn't grasp why they do not like us in the first place. the hate for american's goes WAY further back then Bush. he just happened to be the President when the attack was carried out, but that was being planned for YEARS!!! so yes if the other side wants to get involved in our business, figure out what business it is your getting into.


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> well since you want to know about our enemies, *THEY HATE OUR WAY OF LIFE!!!!* that's where way of life comes in, you wouldn't understand. they do not like america for our lifestyle, and what our country means. i do not know how many times i have to repeat myself before you get it. it doesn't matter what person we have in office



I have a friend from Iran that lived here for years, quiet guy.
He finally brought his wife over here and it was OK for a while....as soon as she became Americanized all hell went loose.

He went crazy, they divorced and she had to get an order of protection on him, he hates what America did to his sweetheart...we converted her from a slave to a  liberated Woman with a mind of her own.....downside is became a bit slutty..


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> Does it really make a difference...when we the USA stick our noses in other countries ....



of course it makes a difference. he was talking about an instance where he wanted our president to stick his nose in others business. the rest of my post would have needed to be different if he was an american citizen living abroad. he was mad at obama for not sticking his nose in other countries affairs. If he should have been angry it should have been at his own government for not getting involved not at ours. that was the hypocricital part of his post.

i actually thought obama did the right thing in how he handled that law.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> Sorry, I know as a typical american you find it difficult to care about anything other than yourself. And there is a huge difference between starting a war and trying to protect human rights.
> 
> Also, it wont be in the French interest to trade with you for much longer, in 15years time you will not be the super power that you are now. Well see how little you care then.



alright nostradamus time to hit the pub.


----------



## Hench (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> well since you want to know about our enemies, THEY HATE OUR WAY OF LIFE!!!! that's where way of life comes in, you wouldn't understand. they do not like america for our lifestyle, and what our country means. i do not know how many times i have to repeat myself before you get it. it doesn't matter what person we have in office



Im Irish, I live in England, with a Scottish girl, a Polish guy, an Iranian guy and 4 other english people. Trust me, I know what the rest of the world thinks of you and it has nothing to do with your lifestyle. It may however have something to do with your attitude, espically toward others.


----------



## Hench (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> alright nostradamus time to hit the pub.



Dont sterotype me, you no nothing about me.


----------



## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> Im Irish, I live in England, with a Scottish girl, a Polish guy, an Iranian guy and 4 other english people. Trust me, I know what the rest of the world thinks of you and it has nothing to do with your lifestyle. It may however have something to do with your attitude, espically toward others.



Yeah, you hate us but we'd be the first one you'd ask for for help, and we'd be the first ones there to provide it.

Don't kid yourself.  If America isn't a super power in 15 years, you're fucked.


----------



## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> Dont sterotype me, you no nothing about me.



 There's that irony again.  A dumb ass coming in here saying he hates all Americans & then cries for being stereotyped.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> Yeah, you hate us but we'd be the first one you'd ask for for help, and we'd be the first ones there to provide it.
> 
> Don't kid yourself.  If America isn't a super power in 15 years, you're fucked.


----------



## Hench (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> Yeah, you hate us but we'd be the first one you'd ask for for help, and we'd be the first ones there to provide it.
> 
> Don't kid yourself.  If America isn't a super power in 15 years, you're fucked.



Who the hell said I hate america? Why do these discussion always have to go one way or another, why can I not like some things, but disagree with others? 

This is leading nowhere, im out.


----------



## Hench (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> There's that irony again.  A dumb ass coming in here saying *he hates all Americans* & then cries for being stereotyped.



Sorry, I know I said im out but WHAT THE FUCK?

I visit america several times a year and plan to spend a year in industry in there during 2011.

You guys really dont help yourselves at times.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> Im Irish, I live in England, with a Scottish girl, a Polish guy, an Iranian guy and 4 other english people. Trust me, I know what the rest of the world thinks of you and it has nothing to do with your lifestyle. It may however have something to do with your attitude, espically toward others.



3 guys one girl and 4 others, well my friend the 8 of you do not account for the rest of the world. and besides i think the MILLIONS of arabs that hate our lifestyle trump the 8 of you. i believe there was a video out about why the US was attacked, and why they didn't like Americans, wait for it........... "their way of living" i believe that is lifestyle way of life whatever you 8 want to call it.


----------



## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> Who the hell said I hate america? Why do these discussion always have to go one way or another, why can I not like some things, but disagree with others?



Ok you like us, you just hope we aren't a superpower and think as typical americans we find it difficult to care about anything other than ourselves?

sounds like love to me.  

You come here, insult my country & people & expect open arms?  Wake up.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> Sorry, I know I said im out but WHAT THE FUCK?
> 
> I visit america several times a year and plan to spend a year in industry in there during 2011.
> 
> You guys really dont help yourselves at times.



so you do not care for our country, but you sure would liek to come here and work F&%KING immigrants. save yourself the trouble America has enough problems we have to deal with. like getting other AMERICANS jobs


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> Who the hell said I hate america? *Why do these discussion always have to go one way or another*, why can I not like some things, but disagree with others?
> 
> This is leading nowhere, im out.



It always does.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> Dont sterotype me, you no nothing about me.



what do I know, what do I know, what do I KNOW. I know how to spell know.


the pub thing didn't need to be said. you're right. for that I'm sorry. I stand by my nostradamus comment though. dont make predictions about stuff you have no idea about


----------



## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> Sorry, I know I said im out but WHAT THE FUCK?
> 
> I visit america several times a year and plan to spend a year in industry in there during 2011.
> 
> You guys really dont help yourselves at times.



That's why Obama is your guy. He'll kiss your ass when you spit in our eye. 

I won't.  I'm a proud American, and I don't apologize for it.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> I'm a proud American, and I don't apologize for it.



    BEST DAMN THING EVER SAID ON THIS FORUM, how do I put that in my sig (definatly sig material)


----------



## Hench (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> what do I know, what do I know, what do I KNOW. I know how to spell know.
> 
> 
> the pub thing didn't need to be said. you're right. for that I'm sorry. I stand by my nostradamus comment though. dont make predictions about s*tuff you have no idea about*



lol, hi there, Economics and Finance, BA Honors (2010). I think I might know just a little bit about economics. 

I enjoy these discussion, but I dont enjoy being sterotyped, having words put into my mouth, or people making assumptions about me, my thoughts or my agenda. This time, I really am out.

Have a good evening.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

well i guess you skipped history then there honor grad!!!! the US went through this before, and was STILL a super power.


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> lol, hi there, Economics and Finance, BA Honors (2010). I think I might know just a little bit about economics.
> 
> I enjoy these discussion, but I dont enjoy being sterotyped,* having words put into my mouth, or people making assumptions about me, my thoughts or my agenda. This time, I really am out.*
> 
> Have a good evening.




He really does have a point here, he gave us his opinion and it turns ugly....yup..we Americans sure know how debate. 

Just cut to the chase and save bandwidth and tell anyone whose opinion you don't a agree with to PISS OFF!


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> well i guess you skipped history then there honor grad!!!! the US went through this before, and was STILL a super power.



All great Empires fall...


----------



## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> All great Empires fall...



We've never had one like the US. Ever.


----------



## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> lol, hi there, Economics and Finance, BA Honors (2010). I think I might know just a little bit about economics.
> 
> I enjoy these discussion, but I dont enjoy being sterotyped, having words put into my mouth, or people making assumptions about me, my thoughts or my agenda. This time, I really am out.
> 
> Have a good evening.




There you go playing the victim again.

Let me spell it out again.  You come on a 90%+ American forum, telling us we are all ignorant & only care about ourselves. You tell us our only hope for acceptance in the world is Obama, and that you, all of your friends and "the rest of the world" have a bad image of America.  And you're confused as to your reception?


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> That's why Obama is your guy. He'll kiss your ass when you spit in our eye.
> 
> I won't.  I'm a proud American, and I don't apologize for it.




Wow.


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> We've never had one like the US. Ever.



You are kidding..are you?

You mean we are the greatest Empire ever?
We are invincible?


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

Have you been drinking the Hitler cool aide Busy?


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> lol, hi there, Economics and Finance, BA Honors (2010). I think I might know just a little bit about economics.
> 
> I enjoy these discussion, but I dont enjoy being sterotyped, having words put into my mouth, or people making assumptions about me, my thoughts or my agenda. This time, I really am out.
> 
> Have a good evening.



and with knowledge from your yet unfinished undergrad you have come to the conclusion that america will cease to be a super power in 15 years? yet you are still coming HERE to work in industry for a year in 2011? something just doesn't seem to add up here.

I've studied a bit of economics myself, and if there is anything I've learned is that any economic forecast 15 years down the road will absolutely be wrong.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> All great Empires fall...



et tu? are you now predicting the future of our nation?


----------



## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> Have you been drinking the Hitler cool aide Busy?



I'm just tired of the Anti-American bullshit... from inside as well as outside. We're not perfect, but we are the greatest force for good the world has ever seen.


----------



## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> I'm just tired of the Anti-American bullshit... from inside as well as outside. We're not perfect, but we are the greatest force for good the world has ever seen.



All this pride in America and tired of the Anti -Americanism, have you ever been in the military ?


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> et tu? are you now predicting the future of our nation?



No, but to think that we will never fall is kind of foolish.

In fact you guys already said it will fall with Obama in charge....guess what, he is.

The Roman was a kick ass Empire, heck even Jesus thought they were.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

IronAddict said:


> All this pride in America and tired of the Anti -Americanism, have you ever been in the military ?



I SURE HAVE!!!!


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

IronAddict said:


> All this pride in America and tired of the Anti -Americanism, have you ever been in the military ?



Most never have been.


Lets go to war YESSSS....who me..never.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

Mino are you telling me you didn't see the bogus parts of this guys posts? America is hated by the world because bush interfered in foreign countries, but he was angry with obama because he did not interfere with laws in afghanistan enough?

he predicts the end of the US as an economic super power in 15 years based on his yet uncompleted studies as an undergrad, yet still plans on coming to work here in OUR industry for a year after he completes his studies. One can only assume it is because the US is really where the economic opportunities lie. 

No matter what the US does we are going to make enemies. thats the nature of being #1. we should not apologize for this. might as well embrace it. we are going to be seen as pompus no matter what our actions, so might as well be pompus.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> Lets go to war YESSSS....who me..never.



sounds like the majority here, want to KICK ASS and be a bad ass country and then when they find out what it takes they bitch about it!!!


----------



## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> No, but to think that we will never fall is kind of foolish.
> 
> In fact you guys already said it will fall with Obama in charge....guess what, he is.
> 
> The Roman was a kick ass Empire, heck even Jesus thought they were.



When did I say we never would fall?  All I said was the US was different & can't be compared to past "empires"


----------



## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> I SURE HAVE!!!!



Nice CORUM, but you aren't the one touting all this proud to be an American, anti- American BS.


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> I'm just tired of the Anti-American bullshit... from inside as well as outside. We're not perfect, but we are the *greatest force for good the world has ever seen.*



I agree, that's why my pride still wants the American auto to survive while others really don't care.

I hate seeing foriengners talk bad about America...Moondog didn't go there, but acting arrogant and stereotyping....that didn't look good on our behalf. 
You were a little too much Cheney and too little Obama. 



We are the greatest force in the world for the good of mankind but also our pockets.


----------



## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

IronAddict said:


> Nice CORUM, but you aren't the one touting all this proud to be an American, anti- American BS.



Sorry, I didn't know I had to serve in the military to love my country. 

 idiot.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

IronAddict said:


> Nice CORUM, but you aren't the one touting all this proud to be an American, anti- American BS.



true, but i don't have to, my actions speak WAY louder than any words


----------



## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> Most never have been.
> 
> 
> Lets go to war YESSSS....who me..never.



Yeah really, reminds me of the pansy who used to pick fights in high school, then when his buddies showed up it's, you go and fight I'll hold your coat!


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> When did I say we never would fall?  All I said was the US was different & can't be compared to past "empires"



That's where my Hitler comment came from.....he said the same, and to this day I am in awe of that regime but look at them...gone in a short period of time.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> No, but to think that we will never fall is kind of foolish.
> 
> In fact you guys already said it will fall with Obama in charge....guess what, he is.
> 
> The Roman was a kick ass Empire, heck even Jesus thought they were.



I never said that it will never fail. though I pray every day that it doesn't.

I don't remember saying that the US will fail with obama in charge. I am scared that with obama in charge his policies will take the US in a direction that I don't like. The US is much more resilient than one president is capable of destroying.


----------



## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> Moondog didn't go there, but acting arrogant and stereotyping....that didn't look good on our behalf.



WTF? Did you not read his American bashing posts?  

No he's forgiven for what he said.. but we should apologize.  That's too much Obama & not enough Cheney.


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

Yeah, I saw a gangbang, it wasn't pretty.
He was stomped.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> Sorry, I didn't know I had to serve in the military to love my country.
> 
> idiot.



it helps  but at least you a proud American unlike some


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> I never said that it will never fail. though I pray every day that it doesn't.
> 
> I don't remember saying that the US will fail with obama in charge. I am scared that with obama in charge his policies will take the US in a direction that I don't like. The US is much more resilient than one president is capable of destroying.



Other countries are moving up, who would have thought India would be up there.


----------



## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> Sorry, I didn't know I had to serve in the military to love my country.
> 
> idiot.



No, your the Republican idiot who recites everything you hear on right wing radio. Cut the phony crap, if your so proud to be an American, put your money where your mouth is, and defend her!


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> Yeah, I saw a gangbang, it wasn't pretty.
> He was stomped.





don't step in the ring unless you are prepared to box. everyone gets KTFO sometimes. we will see how he handles it. if he comes in more prepared next time then he will have earned some respect and the discussions will continue.

If not, then he ends up like danny.


----------



## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> true, but i don't have to, my actions speak WAY louder than any words



As it should be.


----------



## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

IronAddict said:


> Cut the phony crap, if your so proud to be an American, put your money were your mouth is, and defend her!



That seems to be a favorite liberal line lately.. I know I heard the loon Tim Robbins say that.  

To suggest I can't love my country unless I served in the military is pretty arrogant, not to mention ridiculous.  It's only a coward's tactic...


----------



## Dale Mabry (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> DALE MABRY, i will leave you with one question. have you ever been over there a shoot one of those little dipshits with a bomb strapped to them??? have you had those fuckers blow you up?? did you have a 7 year old throw a grenade at you?? have you actually even been there??? if not then your sympathy for them is of ignorance, and you know nothing about any of it except what you see on the news. so for all of you saying what was done was too harsh, go over there and learn first hand what needs to be done. you talk a big game, about "i'll shoot them, waterboard them, pull toenails out" make yourself feel hard until you actually have to do those things and then live with the dreams every night, and come back paranoid about everything, and you don't feel safe EVER. tell me how it is??? oh wait you don't live with that??? and then come back and have some arabic sympathising bitch, whore call you a baby killer. as of now i do not see to many people on here that have first hand knowledge about anything, yet they talk out of their ass!!!! IGNORANCE




I agree, I will never know how that feels, but I do know that I would feel alot better about what I did if I just went there, shot the enemy in battle, and went about my business.  Now, if I had gone there, captured the enemy, then started to torture them, I would probably have a hard time sleeping at night.  I am not saying you did this, I am saying that I personally would have no problem with going over there if I thought what I did was just.  Taking a defenseless person and causing bodily injury to them (I do not consider psychological shit like caterpillars and cultural taboo stuff as torture) is something I would have a hard time performing or supporting.  But that's just my opinion.  I am 100% sure that if I had a child and one of those fuckers executed them that I would be on the first plane over there looking for blood, and then I would await my day in court.


----------



## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

busyLivin said:


> That seems to be a favorite liberal line lately.. I know I heard the loon Tim Robbins say that.
> 
> To suggest I can't love my country unless I served in the military is pretty arrogant, not to mention ridiculous.  It's only a coward's tactic...



Who the phuq is Tim Robbins, and I'd tell him the same phuquin thing.

No, a coward says he loves America, but doesn't do a damn thing for the country he proclaims to love so much, especially in the time of war.


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

President Holds Open Door For Prosecutions of Bush Officials For Interrogation Policies, Truth Commission - Political Punch

*President Holds Open Door For Prosecutions of Bush Officials For Interrogation Policies, Truth Commission*


> President Obama suggested today that it remained a possibility that the Justice Department might bring charges against officials of the Bush administration who devised harsh interrogation policies that some see as torture.
> 
> He also suggested that if there is any sort of investigation into these past policies and practices, he would be more inclined to support an independent commission outside the typical congressional hearing process.
> 
> ...


----------



## lnvanry (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> Sorry, I know as a *typical american you find it difficult to care about anything other than yourself. *And there is a huge difference between starting a war and trying to protect human rights.
> 
> Also, it wont be in the French interest to trade with you for much longer, in 15years time you will not be the super power that you are now. Well see how little you care then.



Looks who is stereotyping now  And I love the touch of academic snobbery...especially when its just a BA from a student who has 2 full years before graduating  II guess, I can understand you trying to defend yourself though, but look at the context here...ie the forum demographics.  

Nothing wrong with admitting that one still has a lot to learn.

And it will be in France's best interest to trade with us...for at least 15 years.  People point to BRIC nation states as up and coming...and how they are _starting _to bring the world back to non unipolar state, but lets look at the gross numbers...look at the US's GDP in comparison to every other country.  Look at its record of patent generation and innovation...while we may not single handily dominate these indicators, we certainly reside at the top.


----------



## Dale Mabry (Apr 21, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> President Holds Open Door For Prosecutions of Bush Officials For Interrogation Policies, Truth Commission - Political Punch
> 
> *President Holds Open Door For Prosecutions of Bush Officials For Interrogation Policies, Truth Commission*



I am Dale Mabry, and I do NOT approve this message.


----------



## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> President Holds Open Door For Prosecutions of Bush Officials For Interrogation Policies, Truth Commission - Political Punch
> 
> *President Holds Open Door For Prosecutions of Bush Officials For Interrogation Policies, Truth Commission*



That's what I wanna hear. But this stuff has to be executed from the top down, Not just the enlisted personnel who were just carrying out orders!

So this shiite never happens again!


----------



## Hench (Apr 21, 2009)

lnvanry said:


> Looks who is stereotyping now  And I love the touch of academic snobbery...especially when its just a BA from a student who has 2 full years before graduating  II guess, I can understand you trying to defend yourself though, but look at the context here...ie the forum demographics.
> 
> Nothing wrong with admitting that one still has a lot to learn.
> 
> And it will be in France's best interest to trade with us...for at least 15 years.  People point to BRIC nation states as up and coming...and how they are _starting _to bring the world back to non unipolar state, but lets look at the gross numbers...look at the US's GDP in comparison to every other country.  Look at its record of patent generation and innovation...while we may not single handily dominate these indicators, we certainly reside at the top.



I do feel I owe an appology for that. It was said in the same context as when I was told to go to the pub and have a drink. We both took the easy route out and sterotyped. And it was not snobbery, just after two years studying economics I would like to think I know more than nothing (which is what I was told) and to be fair I am probably more educated in economics than the vast mojority of members on this board. My oponion is as educated as anyones on this topic.


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

Dale Mabry said:


> I am Dale Mabry, and I do NOT approve this message.



I agree, what the hell is he doing??


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> I do feel I owe an appology for that. It was said in the same context as when I was told to go to the pub and have a drink. We both took the easy route out and sterotyped. And it was not snobbery, just after two years studying economics I would like to think I know more than nothing (which is what I was told) and to be fair I am probably more educated in economics than the vast mojority of members on this board. My oponion is as educated as anyones on this topic.



Don't you ever...ever leave a discussion like that.

If there's one stereotype you should be proud of is the fighting spirit of an Irishman.


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## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

Yeah Moondog, If I was in Ireland you better believe I'd be in a pub! And if I knew you I'd buy you a beer. Shiite, the way I roll it would be many.


----------



## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> Don't you ever...ever leave a discussion like that.
> 
> If there's one stereotype you should be proud of is the fighting spirit of an Irishman.



I'm 100% Irish.


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## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

You have the fight in you.

How can you go against your Piazzan from the old Country.


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## busyLivin (Apr 21, 2009)

and i don't drink, btw!


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## Hench (Apr 21, 2009)

I dont lack the fighting spirit, its the ability to type intelligent posts when Im a bit stoned.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

Dale Mabry said:


> I agree, I will never know how that feels, but I do know that I would feel alot better about what I did if I just went there, shot the enemy in battle, and went about my business.  Now, if I had gone there, captured the enemy, then started to torture them, I would probably have a hard time sleeping at night.  I am not saying you did this, I am saying that I personally would have no problem with going over there if I thought what I did was just.  Taking a defenseless person and causing bodily injury to them (I do not consider psychological shit like caterpillars and cultural taboo stuff as torture) is something I would have a hard time performing or supporting.  But that's just my opinion.  I am 100% sure that if I had a child and one of those fuckers executed them that I would be on the first plane over there looking for blood, and then I would await my day in court.



it sounds easier than it is just going ove rthere and shooting someone, that is spoken liek someone that has never done it. especially if you have to shoot a kid the same age as your son. there is a lot more to it then people think. you will be fine at first, but after you rack up a few bodies and the adrenaline wears off (which could take months after you get back) it starts messing with your head. and everyone can say they would do this and they would do that, you never know until your tested 9 and that's a fact) i've seen soem of the hardest guys in the world break down like a bitch. the torture or whatever might have had to be done. you have to get information, and they are not going to offer it up. people are not grasping this culture. these men are born and raised, brainwashed to want to blow themself up. what kind of person thinks like that? his/hers/childs sole purpose is to blow themself up. they want to die, do you think they are going to give you any information freely????? now you catch one of these bastards, after you watched your best friend get his head blown off, anothe rfriend get mangled by an ied, guys getting legs blown off, or burned alive in a vehicle while you tried to get them out all you smelled was burning flesh, and heard the screams and there was nothing you could do. then they tell you, this guy you captured knows who is behind all this and is going to do it to more people. what would you do to get the information out of that smug fuckers face???? he looks at you all smug and wants to rub it in he has been killing your friends???? do you think making this guy lay around naked and listen to loud music for a few days is to harsh??? you make him stay on his knees on concrete for a few days, and when he goes to pass out you wake him up and make him stay awake in the same position for DAYS is too harsh???? are you serious???


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## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> I dont lack the fighting spirit, its the ability to type intelligent posts when Im a bit stoned.



Me too!


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## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

CORUM said:


> it sounds easier than it is just going ove rthere and shooting someone, that is spoken liek someone that has never done it. especially if you have to shoot a kid the same age as your son. there is a lot more to it then people think. you will be fine at first, but after you rack up a few bodies and the adrenaline wears off (which could take months after you get back) it starts messing with your head. and everyone can say they would do this and they would do that, you never know until your tested 9 and that's a fact) i've seen soem of the hardest guys in the world break down like a bitch. the torture or whatever might have had to be done. you have to get information, and they are not going to offer it up. people are not grasping this culture. these men are born and raised, brainwashed to want to blow themself up. what kind of person thinks like that? his/hers/childs sole purpose is to blow themself up. they want to die, do you think they are going to give you any information freely????? now you catch one of these bastards, after you watched your best friend get his head blown off, anothe rfriend get mangled by an ied, guys getting legs blown off, or burned alive in a vehicle while you tried to get them out all you smelled was burning flesh, and heard the screams and there was nothing you could do. then they tell you, this guy you captured knows who is behind all this and is going to do it to more people. what would you do to get the information out of that smug fuckers face???? he looks at you all smug and wants to rub it in he has been killing your friends???? do you think making this guy lay around naked and listen to loud music for a few days is to harsh??? you make him stay on his knees on concrete for a few days, and when he goes to pass out you wake him up and make him stay awake in the same position for DAYS is too harsh???? are you serious???



Bud, I know what you speak of first hand. But what really chaps my hide is, that you and your cadre didn't have to be there. This is my whole argument.
about this war.

Have you spoken to your local DAV  rep.?


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## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

yeah I talk to those DAV people alot.


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## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

Oh, you're in Cal. where abouts ?

That's good!  they are very helpful, I do some counseling with the DAV


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## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

Couseling yeah??? I am in Barstow, I actually work on Ft. Irwin. 

I know the guy that did all my paperwork for disability like 4 years ago, quit the VA and now works in the same building as my wife. as soon as he figured out her last name he remember exactly who I was. told her i had some issues. he remembered that for 4 years, and he only talked to me for liek 30 minutes. crazy!!!


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## IronAddict (Apr 21, 2009)

This is good, sounds like a good man! Good luck Corum.


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## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

thanks


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## Little Wing (Apr 21, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> alright nostradamus time to hit the pub.




you want to be listened to and your opinion respected in a conversation where you are unwilling to extend the same courtesies. kinda sounds like a guy that really _doesn't_ care what anyone else thinks. but sure has a lot to say about it. 



bio-chem said:


> might as well be pompous.



you've perfected this at least


----------



## JerseyDevil (Apr 21, 2009)

I have read this entire thread. Lot's of good arguments and viewpoints. I have boiled it down to two simple observations.

To Hayden I would say, if our boys were captured and subjected to these exact same 'techniques" we would be screaming foul to the UN. 

Second, George W. Bush was the absolute ***WORST PRESIDENT*** ever in modern times, and deep down inside, you all know it. 

Daddy's money will not save him now.


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## min0 lee (Apr 21, 2009)

> To Hayden I would say, if our boys were captured and subjected to these exact same 'techniques" we would be screaming foul to the UN.


 nuff said.


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## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

Little Wing said:


> you want to be listened to and your opinion respected in a conversation where you are unwilling to extend the same courtesies. kinda sounds like a guy that really _doesn't_ care what anyone else thinks. but sure has a lot to say about it.
> 
> 
> 
> you've perfected this at least



this kid is an undergrad in economics and is predicting the economic fall of the US in 15 years. if there is anything i've learned about economics it is that no economic model predicting the future has ever been even remotely close especially 15 years in advance. you bet your ass i'm going to be flippant with him. if he wants respect he will have to earn it the same way every one else does.

 i disagree with everyone on this board at some point or another yet there are many of you i respect. like i said if you are going to step into the ring you better be prepared to box, or have fun picking yourself up.

i'll be damned if i'm going to sit here and listen to someone who is not a US citizen monday morning quarterback our US president because he doesn't interfere when he wants him to.


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## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2009)

JerseyDevil said:


> I have read this entire thread. Lot's of good arguments and viewpoints. I have boiled it down to two simple observations.
> 
> To Hayden I would say, if our boys were captured and subjected to these exact same 'techniques" we would be screaming foul to the UN.
> 
> ...



In the first Gulf war you don't think we had some of our boys who were captured by the iraqi's? and do you not think that our boys were subjected to worse? should we bring up the tortures sadam was known for? what sadam was known for makes what we did look like a tea party. and we did not scream foul to the UN.


----------



## lnvanry (Apr 21, 2009)

JerseyDevil said:


> I have read this entire thread. Lot's of good arguments and viewpoints. I have boiled it down to two simple observations.
> 
> To Hayden I would say, if our boys were captured and subjected to these exact same 'techniques" we would be screaming foul to the UN.
> 
> ...




I genuinely feel that his litmus test isn't over yet...we'll see how Iraq turns out in 5-20 years.  Right now, I'd place him in the bottom 3 since the 1900s, but not the worst.  He still has a chance to move to the upper half if Iraq becomes a stable, prosperous ally.


----------



## CORUM (Apr 21, 2009)

why is nobody blaming clinton for anything??? it was his bills that passed for subprime loans, that helped get us to where we are now!!! he wanted to help his welfare people get into houses and look where it got us. it took time but it caught up with us. but it is easier to blame Bush. (not saying Bush was great by any means, just saying)


----------



## min0 lee (Apr 22, 2009)

lnvanry said:


> I genuinely feel that his litmus test isn't over yet...we'll see how Iraq turns out in 5-20 years.  Right now, I'd place him in the bottom 3 since the 1900s, but not the worst.  He still has a chance to move to the upper half if Iraq becomes a stable, prosperous ally.



I doubt it


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## min0 lee (Apr 22, 2009)

CORUM said:


> why is nobody blaming clinton for anything??? it was his bills that passed for subprime loans, that helped get us to where we are now!!! he wanted to help his welfare people get into houses and look where it got us. it took time but it caught up with us. but it is easier to blame Bush. (not saying Bush was great by any means, just saying)



NAFTA....although the idea was floating around before him, he was the one who signed the bill.


----------



## Dale Mabry (Apr 22, 2009)

CORUM said:


> why is nobody blaming clinton for anything??? it was his bills that passed for subprime loans, that helped get us to where we are now!!! he wanted to help his welfare people get into houses and look where it got us. it took time but it caught up with us. but it is easier to blame Bush. (not saying Bush was great by any means, just saying)



No, what actually happened is that Clinton passed bills that were actually GOP supported ventures, to get lower income people in to homes.  This would increase tax revenue, revenue generated by banks, and give people a chance to live the "American Dream".  Then, as the Bush admin came in, they loosened restrictions on the banks, with the SEC eventually loosening the requirements that banks only lend out $15 to $1 they have to banks being allowed to lend out $40 for every $1 they had.  You just listen to the progpaganda the GOP feeds you.  In the end, IMO, you lay the blame squarely on the banks and idiots who took out loans they couldn't afford to pay, to blame politicians is nonsense.  Just because you are allowed to do something doesn't mean you should do it.  A lack of personal responsibility is why we are here, and, unfortunately, those of us who were smart enough to avoid these situations will be paying for these mistakes for years to come.


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## brogers (Apr 22, 2009)

IronAddict said:


> All this pride in America and tired of the Anti -Americanism, have you ever been in the military ?



You can't support abortion if you've never had one.

You can't support gay marriage if you've never been in one.

You can't support welfare if you've never received any.

You can't support medicare/medicaid if you've never been in those programs.

You can't support tax hikes if you don't pay taxes.

I like this line of thinking!


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## tucker01 (Apr 22, 2009)

Dale Mabry said:


> No, what actually happened is that Clinton passed bills that were actually GOP supported ventures, to get lower income people in to homes.  This would increase tax revenue, revenue generated by banks, and give people a chance to live the "American Dream".  Then, as the Bush admin came in, they loosened restrictions on the banks, with the SEC eventually loosening the requirements that banks only lend out $15 to $1 they have to banks being allowed to lend out $40 for every $1 they had.  You just listen to the progpaganda the GOP feeds you.  In the end, IMO, you lay the blame squarely on the banks and idiots who took out loans they couldn't afford to pay, to blame politicians is nonsense.  Just because you are allowed to do something doesn't mean you should do it.  A lack of personal responsibility is why we are here, and, unfortunately, those of us who were smart enough to avoid these situations will be paying for these mistakes for years to come.



Thank you.


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## IronAddict (Apr 22, 2009)

brogers said:


> You can't support abortion if you've never had one.
> 
> You can't support gay marriage if you've never been in one.
> 
> ...



...

It's called egalitarianism!

You ever hear the saying, " the last refuge of every heathen is patriotism" ? That's the whole right wing for ya.


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## bio-chem (Apr 22, 2009)

IronAddict said:


> ...
> 
> It's called egalitarianism!
> 
> You ever hear the saying, " the last refuge of every heathen is patriotism" ? That's the whole right wing for ya.



so what does it say about those who mock patriotism?


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## IronAddict (Apr 22, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> so what does it say about those who mock patriotism?



People who recognize FALSE patriotism.


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## bio-chem (Apr 22, 2009)

IronAddict said:


> People who recognize FALSE patriotism.



you see any false patriots here at IM?


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## IronAddict (Apr 22, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> you see any false patriots here at IM?



Don't start putting words in my mouth Bio, we know how that's going to end!


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## CORUM (Apr 22, 2009)

ok, good points on why Clinton is not blamed..... now since everyone agrees PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, then why does Bush get blamed for EVERYTHING??? say the war i dare someone, because the president can not declare war by himself. there is only on branch of the military he can send anywhere without congress approval and thats only for 30 days. so why is he always blamed? (if it truly is personal responsibility) not to start an argument, just some thoughts


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## bio-chem (Apr 22, 2009)

IronAddict said:


> Don't start putting words in my mouth Bio, we know how that's going to end!



yea, that came out wrong. I didn't mean to do that, was just curious if you felt that applied to anyone here.


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## IronAddict (Apr 22, 2009)

bio-chem said:


> yea, that came out wrong. I didn't mean to do that, was just curious if you felt that applied to anyone here.



No, I don't question anyones heart. I believe everyone is proud of their country and expresses it in their own way.

I just don't agree when it is used as a tool of divisiveness, thats all.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 22, 2009)

CORUM said:


> ok, good points on why Clinton is not blamed..... now since everyone agrees PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, then why does Bush get blamed for EVERYTHING??? say the war i dare someone, because the president can not declare war by himself. there is only on branch of the military he can send anywhere without congress approval and thats only for 30 days. so why is he always blamed? (if it truly is personal responsibility) not to start an argument, just some thoughts



I agree with you, he shouldn't be blamed in either circumstance.


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## CORUM (Apr 22, 2009)

Actually, now this is just MHO, the President job SUCKS!!!! you really have NO power without congress (they run shit) of course you can veto things, but that comes with stipulations also. So basicly the president is the scape goat for anything that the congress screws up. So instead of pointing fingers at all them, the finger can be directed to one person. kind of a shitty job!!!


but you get your picture put up with all those other old guys!!


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## min0 lee (Apr 22, 2009)

CORUM said:


> Actually, now this is just MHO, the President job SUCKS!!!! you really have NO power without congress (they run shit) of course you can veto things, but that comes with stipulations also. So basicly the president is the scape goat for anything that the congress screws up. So instead of pointing fingers at all them, the finger can be directed to one person. kind of a shitty job!!!
> 
> 
> but you get your picture put up with all those other old guys!!



I really don't dislike Bush, the one I never trusted was Cheney.

Just something sneaky about him.

But it is a tough job to do, it takes a special person to run a room like that.


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## CORUM (Apr 22, 2009)

to be President you have to surround yourself with some pretty good people for advisors and things or you will be screwed!!!


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## brogers (Apr 22, 2009)

min0 lee said:


> I really don't dislike Bush, the one I never trusted was Cheney.
> 
> Just something sneaky about him.
> 
> But it is a tough job to do, it takes a special person to run a room like that.



I don't think Cheney is sneaky.  In fact I find him to be quite the opposite.  That's why he pisses a lot of people off.  He says and does what he thinks is right and doesn't seem to give crap if people disagree with him.


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## Burner02 (Apr 23, 2009)

Corum-
Sorry for your loss, bro. I'm a civillian contractor here in afghan right now. I've been to 4 Fallen Comrade ceremonies in the 3 months I've been here. I did not know them personally, but went in respect.

had an almost incident the other day. Some tango was trying to suicide bomb a passing by American or Coailtion(sp) vehicle. something went 'wrong' and he self-detonated....so happy ending on that.

I don't get outseide the wire much. (plus, really don't wanna)
But the couple times I've been out and seen how the locals here live; its sad. These people have known nothing but poverty and fighting for decades. Alot can't read. They only know what their 'elders' teach them, and if its hate toward non muslims...well, that's all they know.

As far as Iraq goes, before I came over here, I volounteered for a thing called 'Hungry Heroes'. When troops coming back from the desert got off the plane, there would be plenty of us standing there welcoming them back and handing out McDonalds burgers and a coke.
I'd talk with some of the NCO's when the chance came available.
So I'd ask them what the Iraqi people thought about us. You are still gonna have the hard liners that have been 'indoctrinated' to hating us...but alot are seeing how we actually ARE doing good things over there. Iraqis are getting TIRED of being blown up by the extremists and are telling the US and Coalition troops where to find them.
Call me the optimist, but I am hoping that enough see that we have done good over there and they want to live that better life, take over and then we can leave. Then we can wrap up this place.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 23, 2009)

CORUM said:


> Actually, now this is just MHO, the President job SUCKS!!!! you really have NO power without congress (they run shit) of course you can veto things, but that comes with stipulations also. So basicly the president is the scape goat for anything that the congress screws up. So instead of pointing fingers at all them, the finger can be directed to one person. kind of a shitty job!!!
> 
> 
> but you get your picture put up with all those other old guys!!



Yup, although if things go well, he gets all the acclaim as well.  I wouldn't want all of that responsibility, though.


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## bio-chem (Apr 23, 2009)

Burner02 said:


> As far as Iraq goes, before I came over here, I volounteered for a thing called 'Hungry Heroes'. When troops coming back from the desert got off the plane, there would be plenty of us standing there welcoming them back and handing out McDonalds burgers and a coke.
> I'd talk with some of the NCO's when the chance came available.
> So I'd ask them what the Iraqi people thought about us. You are still gonna have the hard liners that have been 'indoctrinated' to hating us...but alot are seeing how we actually ARE doing good things over there. Iraqis are getting TIRED of being blown up by the extremists and are telling the US and Coalition troops where to find them.
> Call me the optimist, but I am hoping that enough see that we have done good over there and they want to live that better life, take over and then we can leave. Then we can wrap up this place.



I think every God fearing American has this prayer in their hearts


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## Big Smoothy (Apr 23, 2009)

What I find so ironic and strange is that:

former heads of bureaucracies usually do not comment on the current Presidend of the OPPOSING party.

Nor the the former Vice-President comment.

It's an unwritten rule.

And if the former CIA man thoughs this is the case, - WHY - would he say so publicly?

Politics........


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## lnvanry (Apr 23, 2009)

Big Smoothy said:


> What I find so ironic and strange is that:
> 
> former heads of bureaucracies usually do not comment on the current Presidend of the OPPOSING party.
> 
> ...



Tell that to Gen. Clark and VP Gore....its common practice these days


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## bio-chem (Apr 23, 2009)

Big Smoothy said:


> What I find so ironic and strange is that:
> 
> former heads of bureaucracies usually do not comment on the current Presidend of the OPPOSING party.
> 
> ...



I wondered when you were going to show up


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