# Deadlifts - when?



## Ted Shred (Oct 22, 2011)

Howdy.  New member here.

I've been training for a couple months to get back into shape and gain some muscle mass. I'm on a basic 4-day weight routine: Upper body on tues/sat (bench, military press, variety of back exercises - wide/narrow grip pulldowns; wide/narrow seated rows; shrugs; back extensions);legs on wed/sunday (squats, leg extensions, ham curls; variety of calf exercises).

I'd like to start doing deadlifts, but am a bit confused from what I'm reading on the interwebs.  Should I do them on upper b day or leg day?   Should I do them on both days (ie tues & sat if upper b or wed/sun if legs) or just one of the two?  Maybe once a week, alternating between an upper day and a leg day? 

Feedback would be most appreciated.

Cheers


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## bobble (Oct 22, 2011)

I do them on my back day once a week,


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## FitnessFreek (Oct 22, 2011)

most people do them on back day I believe.


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## x~factor (Oct 22, 2011)

I feel them more in my hamstrings than back... so leg day for me.


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## MDR (Oct 22, 2011)

I don't like squatting and deadlifting on the same day, so I just have a squat day and a deadlift day.  People will debate all day when deadlift fits.  Personally, I think it deserves it's own day.


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## PushAndPull (Oct 22, 2011)

I put it with lower pull (a leg day)


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## Ted Shred (Oct 22, 2011)

Thanks for the input.  Hmmmn... I guess I posed the question knowing the answer might not be black or white.  Just got back from the gym and did some DL's after bench and shoulders but before back.  Definitely have to work on form, particularly keeping my back straight, so I think it'll be a couple/few sessions before I start cranking things to the max.  For now, I think I'll keep it on upper day.  Sounds like DL's might work better in a routine with a different split than I have going right now but, with my work sched and the distance to the gym, tue/wed/sat/sun is by far the best for me so I'll see how it goes with DLs on tue/sat.


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## CaptainNapalm (Oct 22, 2011)

Deadlifts are a leg lift not a back lift.  You should do them to train legs.  You can do them on same day as squats or alternate between deadlifts and squats on your leg days.


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## strongrunbox (Oct 22, 2011)

After I run and after I get my post-run high protein, light snack.  Or after I hit the heavy bag or skip rope.  

Kind of a full body exercise.


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## theCaptn' (Oct 22, 2011)

CaptainNapalm said:


> Deadlifts are a leg lift not a back lift.



Oh really??? Please explain!


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## murf23 (Oct 22, 2011)

THIS ^^^^^^^           please tell me


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## HeavyBomber (Oct 22, 2011)

theCaptn' said:


> Oh really??? Please explain!



The primary movers are glutes, hams and quads.


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## pebble (Oct 22, 2011)

physics.  Where is the fulcrum?  Hips.  

It is a posterior chain movement with the primary movers being hamstring  and glutes. The quads do help with the first phase of the lift (which is why some people -dos Remodiso -consider it to be a knee dominate movement) but the movement is still focused on driving the hips forward.  Everything else is stabilizing the load via the limbs and  torso (where the back comes into play). This exercise should be on leg  day.  It is not as if you do barbell bench press on "shoulder" day  despite that fact that a majority of pressers in the gym get more  stimulus at the anterior delts than pecs.  

This is one of the major problems of splitting the body up into many  parts instead of movement patterns.  We start to work against our  natural (and optimal) neuromuscular/biomechanical patterns.


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## theCaptn' (Oct 22, 2011)

You recommend squats and deads on the same day?


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## Cork (Oct 23, 2011)

To jump in on the thread here, the OP works out legs twice a week.  His situation is ideal for utilizing squats on one day and deads on the other.

And yes, IMO, it's okay to squat and dead in one session.  Why wouldn't it be?


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## dsc123 (Oct 23, 2011)

Yes Deadlifts, if done correctly mainly hit the hamstrings, glutes and quads. but it also works lower back, abs, shoulders and chest...i personally do stifflegged deads on back and leg day.


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## GMO (Oct 23, 2011)

Traditional Deads - Back day

Straight-legged Deads - Leg day

That's how I roll anyway...


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## Ted Shred (Oct 23, 2011)

Even though there's differing opinions, and maybe even because of it, this is all good info - thanks.  From all this, and given my current routine, I think what I'm going to do, well... once I get my DL form down and can start crankin' the intensity, is cut back my squats to once/week and do DL's on the following leg day followed by leg press instead of squats.  So Wed. legs will be squats and Sunday will be DLs/ L. Press.

I have some form issues to work on (I do the traditional DLs and gotta keep my damn back straight!) but man I'm lovin' the whole DL thing.  It just feels so freakin' athletic!  The stance, the grip... I dunno even know how to quite explain it.  What really struck me yesterday (first time ever doing DLs, mind you) was how, even though I wasn't maxing out during sets so wasn't really in any kind of distress (the good kind) like I strive for with my last few reps of a squat set, after each DL set it was like my whole body was taxed. I wasn't expecting that, considering I was more just getting used to the movement than anything else.  I have a feeling that once I can do these things properly they're going to be a cornerstone of my workout on par with squats.

edit: actually, cuzza my bad DL form yesterday, I think I might substitute leg press for squats this afternoon.... it's nothin' major but I'm definitely feeling it in my lower back this morning.


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## Gazhole (Oct 23, 2011)

MDR said:


> I don't like squatting and deadlifting on the same day, so I just have a squat day and a deadlift day.  People will debate all day when deadlift fits.  Personally, I think it deserves it's own day.



This. Deadlifts deserve their own day.


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## squigader (Oct 23, 2011)

Give it it's own day. It screws with your other lifts too much to do it on the same day as anything else. I've started doing deadlifts and grip on the same day.


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## PappyMason (Oct 23, 2011)

^agree

i've tried it with back days and i've seen better gains in strength and mass once i've gave deadlifts their own day. but hey thats just me


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## HH25 (Oct 23, 2011)

I agree give it its own day...........


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## Cork (Oct 24, 2011)

You guys go in to the gym and just do 1 lift? I thought I was an efficient lifter, but I'd be feeling like I'm wasting my time only doing 1 exercise, even if it is deads.

And to the OP, since you're new to deads, you'll be seeing a lot of carryover in to your other lifts. I feel like when your body gets accustomed to lifting a lot of weight straight off ground, it gets used to lifting heavy weight in all other motions. You'll be setting a lot of PRs soon.


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## HeavyBomber (Oct 24, 2011)

Regarding when to do deadlifts...
Sure you could do them on their own day, but when is that day? Two days after squats? Three days? Four days, but then when do you do squats again?
The same questions apply if you do them with back.

If you do deadlifts on leg day, simply rearrange things a bit. When you decide an order in which to perform exercises on leg day you usually select something like squats as the primary movement. As secondary you may select something like leg press or fronts squats, good mornings or stiff-legs and so on.
When you're thinking this thru for the day simply substitute the would-be primary with deads. 
What's the big big mystery?


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## banker23 (Oct 24, 2011)

I do them on my lighter chest/back day

and I do them first thing while I am at my strongest. Deads should not be an afterthought. Better to go home after just deads than to do a whole workout and skip your deads imo.


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## banker23 (Oct 24, 2011)

squigader said:


> Give it it's own day. It screws with your other lifts too much to do it on the same day as anything else. I've started doing deadlifts and grip on the same day.


 
I use dead day as a potpourri day that I can rotate other exercises that I may miss during the week into. I use it for dumbbell pullovers and right now I'm using it as an extra dip and pullup day. Sometimes I use it for arms instead...just whatever I feel I haven't hit hard enough between chest/back, leg, or shoulder day.


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## MDR (Oct 24, 2011)

HeavyBomber said:


> Regarding when to do deadlifts...
> Sure you could do them on their own day, but when is that day? Two days after squats? Three days? Four days, but then when do you do squats again?
> The same questions apply if you do them with back.
> 
> ...


 
I usually pull on Saturday, mostly because it is a long day. I like to pull and then focus on accesory work all based on the deadlift. I Squat and do squat related movements on Tuesday. I like at least 72 hours to recover between squatting and deadlift days.  Bench is on Monday, with a light day on Thursday. On Thursday, I might work in some overhead press work as well. Sometimes I'll go in on friday and do a VERY light leg workout, but nothing that will compromise deadlifting the next day. More to limber up and stretch a bit than anything. My focus is on powerlifting, so I do very little in the way of isolation movements.


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## Ted Shred (Oct 24, 2011)

HeavyBomber said:


> Regarding when to do deadlifts...
> Sure you could do them on their own day, but when is that day? Two days after squats? Three days? Four days, but then when do you do squats again?
> The same questions apply if you do them with back.
> 
> ...



If any one post sums up my thinking in how I resolved this for myself, it's this one.  Will probably end up tinkering with my whole routine as time goes on, but right now the plan is squats etc on Wednesday then DL/L Press etc on Sat then back to squats etc on Wed.


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## theCaptn' (Oct 24, 2011)

GMO said:


> Traditional Deads - Back day
> 
> Straight-legged Deads - Leg day
> 
> That's how I roll anyway...



Yeah that how I roll too. Traditional deads is its own day.


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## R1balla (Oct 24, 2011)

for your split, i suggest one week do straight leg deads on back day then the next week do full dead lifts either back or leg day. i get more of a leg workout when form is proper.


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## MDR (Oct 24, 2011)

Cork said:


> You guys go in to the gym and just do 1 lift? I thought I was an efficient lifter, but I'd be feeling like I'm wasting my time only doing 1 exercise, even if it is deads.
> 
> And to the OP, since you're new to deads, you'll be seeing a lot of carryover in to your other lifts. I feel like when your body gets accustomed to lifting a lot of weight straight off ground, it gets used to lifting heavy weight in all other motions. You'll be setting a lot of PRs soon.


 
When it comes to a deadlift day, you do multiple variations.  start with the traditional deadlift, Then do romanians, pull off boxes, ect.  deadlift day or squat day does not mean one lift.  it means the primary lift plus multiple variations.


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## VolcomX311 (Oct 24, 2011)

MDR said:


> When it comes to a deadlift day, you do multiple variations. start with the traditional deadlift, Then do romanians, pull off boxes, ect. deadlift day or squat day does not mean one lift. it means the primary lift plus multiple variations.


 
Oh nice, you mean business with the deads.  I don't think my erectors could handle multiple dead movements.  I used to do Conventional and Racks on the same day, but that's about as much as my low back can handle on the same day (previous slip disc injury).


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## MDR (Oct 24, 2011)

VolcomX311 said:


> Oh nice, you mean business with the deads. I don't think my erectors could handle multiple dead movements. I used to do Conventional and Racks on the same day, but that's about as much as my low back can handle on the same day (previous slip disc injury).


 
Hell, I blew two discs completely two years ago.  Not related to deadlifting.  i just train lighter than i used to.


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## el bruto (Oct 24, 2011)

Try DC and its a no brainer.


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## CowPimp (Oct 25, 2011)

A lot of people do them on back day.  I'm not going to argue that your back doesn't do a lot of work on a deadlift, it certainly does.  However, calling the deadlift an upper body exercise is silly.  All the prime movers in the movements, the glutes and hamstrings, are in the lower body and the main joint through which range of motion is achieved, the hip, is part of the lower body.


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## juggernaut (Oct 25, 2011)

CaptainNapalm said:


> Deadlifts are a leg lift not a back lift.  You should do them to train legs.  You can do them on same day as squats or alternate between deadlifts and squats on your leg days.



This is my favorite method. Also saves a lot of back issues.


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## juggernaut (Oct 25, 2011)

Also, to the OP, use manageable, but heavy weight with good form and dont go above 5 reps. So, put these in the front of the workload, at 5x5. Dont compromise form, and release quickly on the way down to save your back.


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## HeavyBomber (Oct 25, 2011)

HeavyBomber said:


> Regarding when to do deadlifts...
> Sure you could do them on their own day, but when is that day? Two days after squats? Three days? Four days, but then when do you do squats again?
> The same questions apply if you do them with back.
> 
> ...



Furthermore,
If you are hammering heavy squats and/or deadlifts every week you're making a mistake. You're going to reach a point where you plateau and even regress, or worse yet, suffer a repetitive stress type injury.
A better plan is to alternate between squats and deads as your primary movement. You may want to do heavy squats for two or three weeks and then switch to heavy deads for a week or two. That's not to say you can't do squats or deads as a secondary, you're just not going to perform them with as heavy weight. That doesn't mean they aren't effective as a secondary movement.


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## PushAndPull (Oct 25, 2011)

HeavyBomber said:


> Furthermore,
> If you are hammering heavy squats and/or deadlifts every week you're making a mistake. You're going to reach a point where you plateau and even regress, or worse yet, suffer a repetitive stress type injury.
> A better plan is to alternate between squats and deads as your primary movement. You may want to do heavy squats for two or three weeks and then switch to heavy deads for a week or two. That's not to say you can't do squats or deads as a secondary, you're just not going to perform them with as heavy weight. That doesn't mean they aren't effective as a secondary movement.



Completely disagree. 
Having a lower pull (deadlift 1st exercise) and lower push day (squat 1st) is perfectly safe and very effective for progression. The key to aviod overtraining and plateaus is periodization, not your split.


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## HeavyBomber (Oct 25, 2011)

What I'm suggesting is periodization, similar to conjugate, not simply a split. Periodization is nothing more than periods of time of alternated weights and rep schemes. That is exactly what I am saying.

In addition, I'm addressing concerns of those not using periodization by design in their routines.


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## PushAndPull (Oct 25, 2011)

HeavyBomber said:


> What I'm suggesting is periodization, similar to conjugate, not simply a split. Periodization is nothing more than periods of time of alternated weights and rep schemes. That is exactly what I am saying.



The way you were saying it made it sound as if doing deads and squats on different days is bad, and that's not true. Your somewhat lower body periodization doesn't seem to be part of the plan,  but more of a by-product of your split. Obviously what ever exercise you choose first will be heavier than the second. If you're always going heavy that is. If you constantly go heavy on any upper or lower body exercise you're setting yourself up for injuries and plateaus.


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## lambofgod (Oct 26, 2011)

how come my lower back muscles are pretty sore for a few days after doing deads but i dont have any tightness in my legs? my back is always kept flat.


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## zoco (Oct 26, 2011)

I also have this problem.If I do them on my back day i cant' recover well for the squat session a few days later.If I do them the same day with squats i don't have enough strength left.

Anyway I guess it's better to do them on your back day.


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## juggernaut (Oct 26, 2011)

zoco and lambofgod, it's because you're doing one of two things: 
1) A deadlift is NOT a back exercise. It's a quad dominant exercise. Use your legs and dont round your back. The back should remain straight and upright with your ass low to the ground. 
2) Drop the weight at least 40% and assess your form. You're most likely rounding your back because it's too much weight for your condition to handle at this poijnt.


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## juggernaut (Oct 26, 2011)

HeavyBomber said:


> Furthermore,
> If you are hammering heavy squats and/or deadlifts every week you're making a mistake. You're going to reach a point where you plateau and even regress, or worse yet, suffer a repetitive stress type injury.
> A better plan is to alternate between squats and deads as your primary movement. You may want to do heavy squats for two or three weeks and then switch to heavy deads for a week or two. That's not to say you can't do squats or deads as a secondary, you're just not going to perform them with as heavy weight. That doesn't mean they aren't effective as a secondary movement.



I have no problem with the above mentioned suggestion, but another way is to put squats in the front of the week and deads at the very end of the week.


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## CowPimp (Oct 26, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> zoco and lambofgod, it's because you're doing one of two things:
> 1) A deadlift is NOT a back exercise. It's a quad dominant exercise. Use your legs and dont round your back. The back should remain straight and upright with your ass low to the ground.
> 2) Drop the weight at least 40% and assess your form. You're most likely rounding your back because it's too much weight for your condition to handle at this poijnt.



Deadlifts are not a quad dominant exercise.  The primary joint action is hip extension.


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## juggernaut (Oct 27, 2011)

CowPimp said:


> Deadlifts are not a quad dominant exercise.  The primary joint action is hip extension.



My apologies, I stand corrected.


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## juggernaut (Oct 27, 2011)

This better explains my point: T NATION | Mastering the Deadlift - Part 2

I also like this article because of videos below; some are just painful to watch.


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## PushAndPull (Oct 27, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> I also like this article because of videos below; some are just painful to watch.



Really? I was actually disappointed that The Scared Cat video had been removed


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## juggernaut (Oct 27, 2011)

PushAndPull said:


> Really? I was actually disappointed that The Scared Cat video had been removed



You saw that too?? LOL


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## SurfsideRyan (Oct 27, 2011)

lately I have been hitting the gym every other day, except weekends.

Been squatting 3x a week and then deadlifting every other day.

I have been seeing massive gains doing so.


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## juggernaut (Oct 27, 2011)

You will^^


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## TampaSRT (Oct 27, 2011)

GMO said:


> Traditional Deads - Back day
> 
> Straight-legged Deads - Leg day
> 
> That's how I roll anyway...


^^This


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## HeavyBomber (Oct 27, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> I have no problem with the above mentioned suggestion, but another way is to put squats in the front of the week and deads at the very end of the week.



So you take a couple days off after deads before doing legs again?


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## HeavyBomber (Oct 27, 2011)

SurfsideRyan said:


> lately I have been hitting the gym every other day, except weekends.
> 
> Been squatting 3x a week and then deadlifting every other day.
> 
> I have been seeing massive gains doing so.



Wow. How long have you been doing this?


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## HeavyBomber (Oct 27, 2011)

GMO said:


> Traditional Deads - Back day
> 
> Straight-legged Deads - Leg day
> 
> That's how I roll anyway...



Man your hamstrings and glutes must recover fast. How long have you been at it?


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## juggernaut (Oct 27, 2011)

HeavyBomber said:


> So you take a couple days off after deads before doing legs again?



No, I do different stuff during the week, but I do deads at a rest interval. Think a four day with 531.


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## el bruto (Oct 27, 2011)

Rack deads are an excellent exercise for the back.  I do dc and alternate  quite a bit.


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## coachr (Oct 27, 2011)

How early after groin pull too restart deads?


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## blackdove (Oct 27, 2011)

Back day.  I'd be wasted if I did squats and deads on the same day.


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## HeavyBomber (Oct 28, 2011)

neh, just forget it, I quit.


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## banker23 (Oct 28, 2011)

SurfsideRyan said:


> lately I have been hitting the gym every other day, except weekends.
> 
> Been squatting 3x a week and then deadlifting every other day.
> 
> I have been seeing massive gains doing so.


 
ever other day except weekends (there's 5 days in a working week) is a maximum of 3 days a week so if you're suatting 3 days a week you're squatting every day...if you're deadlifting every OTHER day then you have to be in the gym almost every single day without even focusing on any other major lifts. There must be a typo here brah because what you're saying makes no sense.


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## Killermonkey (Oct 28, 2011)

Back day for me, hasn't failed me


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## Cork (Oct 29, 2011)

MDR said:


> When it comes to a deadlift day, you do multiple variations.  start with the traditional deadlift, Then do romanians, pull off boxes, ect.  deadlift day or squat day does not mean one lift.  it means the primary lift plus multiple variations.



So one could argue that instead of doing multiple variations, which also target the posterior chain, you could do normal posterior chain work on that day.


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## HeavyBomber (Oct 29, 2011)

Cork said:


> So one could argue that instead of doing multiple variations, which also target the posterior chain, you could do normal posterior chain work on that day.



Add some quad work and you may have yourself a leg day.


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## Cork (Oct 30, 2011)

HeavyBomber said:


> Add some quad work and you may have yourself a leg day.


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## Ted Shred (Nov 1, 2011)

Been gaining a lot of prime info reading through the various threads and stickies, particularly the Training and Nutrition ones (I needed more (good) fat - who knew?!  Totally into the Udo's oil now) and came across a post that has me thinkin' about this Q some more.  And that's the idea that squats and DL's (being big time compound movements) work as triggers to spark overall growth.  So wouldn't there be something to the idea that DL's might work well to start upper body day to trigger upper body growth?  

At least for a workout like my current one that's still a basic all-in-one upper body/ all-in-one lower body split?  (I gather that as a beginner, I can get away with that kind of thing although I might have to shift things around once I get stronger.)  My work sched has switched a bit and I'm thinking I could keep the upper/lower split for awhile longer, but go to the gym every second day, alternating Upper/Lower (and therefore DLs/ Squats), rather than Sun/Sat and Tue/Wed.  That way I'd get 48 hrs rest between squats and DL's and start each wo with a big compound movement "trigger." (my DL form is getting way better and I think I'll be able to crank 'em to high intensity very soon.)  Or am I even understanding the underlying ideas correctly?  I must admit that I'm not confident that I'm totally getting all the stuff I'm reading - still having difficulty with the concept of periodization for example.

Hope that made sense.  My mind's in a bit of overdrive right now, as I just finished one of my best (upper body) wo's ever.  Broke through a barriers on pretty much everything.  Feelin' pretty excellent, and am totally jazzed for leg day tomorrow.


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## el bruto (Nov 1, 2011)

Ted Shred said:


> Been gaining a lot of prime info reading through the various threads and stickies, particularly the Training and Nutrition ones (I needed more (good) fat - who knew?!  Totally into the Udo's oil now) and came across a post that has me thinkin' about this Q some more.  And that's the idea that squats and DL's (being big time compound movements) work as triggers to spark overall growth.  So wouldn't there be something to the idea that DL's might work well to start upper body day to trigger upper body growth?
> 
> At least for a workout like my current one that's still a basic all-in-one upper body/ all-in-one lower body split?  (I gather that as a beginner, I can get away with that kind of thing although I might have to shift things around once I get stronger.)  My work sched has switched a bit and I'm thinking I could keep the upper/lower split for awhile longer, but go to the gym every second day, alternating Upper/Lower (and therefore DLs/ Squats), rather than Sun/Sat and Tue/Wed.  That way I'd get 48 hrs rest between squats and DL's and start each wo with a big compound movement "trigger." (my DL form is getting way better and I think I'll be able to crank 'em to high intensity very soon.)  Or am I even understanding the underlying ideas correctly?  I must admit that I'm not confident that I'm totally getting all the stuff I'm reading - still having difficulty with the concept of periodization for example.
> 
> Hope that made sense.  My mind's in a bit of overdrive right now, as I just finished one of my best (upper body) wo's ever.  Broke through a barriers on pretty much everything.  Feelin' pretty excellent, and am totally jazzed for leg day tomorrow.



Good deal man.  If you want to stimulate upper bodygrwth, then rackdeads will work well also.  I do DC and on squat week I do racks. When I do deads off the floor I'll do sled.


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