# regular squat vs smith machine squat?



## EDD (Mar 28, 2010)

Hi all, the gym i now have to train at doesnt have a squat rack so i have to use the smith machine. I love squating and its like a different exercise altogether and its taking some getting used to.Just wondering by not having to stabalize the weight ect how much less affective is it and how will my gains suffer?


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## T_man (Mar 28, 2010)

Use the search option for a generic question like this. Even google will yield good results. Please use this forum for personal questions such as personalised training routines.


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## gtbmed (Mar 28, 2010)

Just don't use the Smith machine to squat.  Clean and jerk the weight onto your shoulders and then squat it or rack the weight on a bench or something.

What kind of gym has no squat rack?


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## T_man (Mar 28, 2010)

gtbmed said:


> Just don't use the Smith machine to squat.  Clean and jerk the weight onto your shoulders and then squat it or rack the weight on a bench or something.
> 
> What kind of gym has no squat rack?



I cant clean and jerk what I squat. Even one rep.

If your gym has a bench rack that isn't attached to a seat, you could just do it off there. You'd have to start from an awkward position though.


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## Phineas (Mar 28, 2010)

Well, I would seriously consider changing gyms, or trying to go somewhere that has a power cage. You'll need it for so many thing.

In the mean time, I'd just ditch squats and go with DB work. You can do DB bulgarian split squats, lunges, step ups, etc.

Or, hell, why didn't I think of it, you don't need a cage to do all squats. What about hack squats? Zercher squats? (those can easily be performed off a bench press...that's what I used to do when the cage was busy) Gaz's little love interest the Jefferson squat?

So many more possibilities to train your quads than racked squats.


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## Big Smoothy (Mar 28, 2010)

gtbmed said:


> Just don't use the Smith machine to squat.  Clean and jerk the weight onto your shoulders and then squat it or rack the weight on a bench or something.
> 
> What kind of gym has no squat rack?




These pussy gyms. ^

Agree, Smith Machine not good for squatting as it's not a natural movement.


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## Phineas (Mar 28, 2010)

EDD said:


> Hi all, the gym i now have to train at doesnt have a squat rack so i have to use the smith machine. I love squating and its like a different exercise altogether and its taking some getting used to.Just wondering by not having to stabalize the weight ect how much less affective is it and how will my gains suffer?



Smith machine is bad for any exercise (except calves..then it's God) because it forces your muscles to push or pull in a fixed plane of motion. This is especially bad with back-oriented movements like squats where your spine could potential pick up the slack of the load your carrying. With the smith, there's no leeway, no room to move to the body's natural paths. 

Plus, there's all these little muscles you don't see (what you may have been heard in gym talk referred to as the stabilizers) that are involved in free weight lifts. When you constantly train the muscles in fixed planes of motion those little helper muscles fail to develop. What's worse, those other visual muscles that DO get trained become strong -- stronger than the stabilizers. This is where you get muscular imbalances, and injury can happen very easily.

A lot of guys injure their rotator cuffs because (at least I've noticed) most casual lifters tend to do most or all of their upper pushes on the smith or on machines in general, like bench or should press. The RC is one of those muscles I mentioned. When pressing in that fixed plane the RC is taken out of the equation. It comes weak relative to the neighboring delts.

Take it from a guy who started lifting a year and half ago like a complete moron: free weight squats may feel weird for the first while, but soon you come to think why the hell wasn't I doing this all along. They feel more natural.


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## rob170 (Mar 28, 2010)

ironmagazineforums.com/training/54792-squat-machine-vs-free-weights-1rm.html


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## gtbmed (Mar 29, 2010)

T_man said:


> I cant clean and jerk what I squat. Even one rep.
> 
> If your gym has a bench rack that isn't attached to a seat, you could just do it off there. You'd have to start from an awkward position though.



Clean and jerk 70% of what you squat then.  Still, it's better than doing them in the Smith.


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## Glycomann (Mar 29, 2010)

I'm getting close to 50 and have had some knee surgeries.  Smith squats are great for someone like me.  I've actually seen a good amateur BBer and close friend put 3 inches on his legs in a year making Smith squats his primary leg movement.  Of course he is hardcore in his training and goes up to 8 plates on a side on a pretty heavy duty machine. But still, the free squat is the king of leg builders and core strength.


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## CowPimp (Mar 29, 2010)

In my opinion, no one should ever use the smith machine to do squats.  You put a lot of unnecessary shearing forces on your knee joint.  We don't move in straight lines, we move in arcs.  I'd rather see someone do a leg press than a smith machine squat.  Alternatively, you can do unilateral leg exercises or other squat variations.  Do a front squat, just clean the bar into place first.  Hell, I used to do back squats in my basement before I had a rack.  I just clean and pressed the weight over my head to get it in place for the squats.

Better yet, find a new gym.  If they don't even have a single power cage it shouldn't be called a gym, it should be called a worthless pile of shit.


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## sassy69 (Mar 29, 2010)

Richard Gears said:


> i use the smith for Bicep curls and walking lunges but thats it



How do you manage walking lunges w/ a smith?


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## EDD (Mar 29, 2010)

i know what ur sayin cowpimp its a bullshit gym but its temporary because of work commitments. its obviously no good for the knees as today an old ligament injury came back and fucked my workout.gettin the bar up any other way aint gonna happen cause of a torn rotator cuff.oh well deadlifts for breakfast


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## EDD (Mar 29, 2010)

Richard Gears said:


> i use the smith for Bicep curls and walking lunges but thats it




can you come to my gym do some walking lunges with the smith go straight out the door and come back in with a power rack?


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## DaMayor (Mar 29, 2010)

sassy69 said:


> How do you manage walking lunges w/ a smith?



Disregard.......He's an ass~clown.

Either that ^^^ or he picks the thing up and walks around with it.

I feel confident in my original statement.


While the Smith might interfere with proper form, I don't think it is _entirely_ useless. I've used it for bench press in a pinch.
I think, as Glycomann mentioned, it might not be so bad for someone who is more mature in years who isn't pushing an enormous amount of weight (unlike the friend he mentioned), or an ultralight beginner who has no spotter.  Besides, EDD, or someone like him, might not have the luxury or financial means to go to another gym. 
Personally, I would find another alternative (lift) and just treat the Smith like many other "machines" in the gym...just know the limitations of the machine.


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## Built (Mar 29, 2010)

Hmmm... How can a machine that is known to kill your knees be of benefit to an OLDER lifter?

Sassy, thank you - I read that and thought "wtf?"


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## Merkaba (Mar 29, 2010)

ugh...smith machines!  I agree I would rather a client jerk it and put it on their back, or do fronts with dumbbells or NO weight before squatting in that thing.  

And I agree, if you've had knee problems then you REALLY need to stay away from it.  I've talked enough about the smith machine in other posts...it will give me a damn aneurysm to do it again...

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/107295-freakin-core.html#post1975205


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## DaMayor (Mar 30, 2010)

Built said:


> Hmmm... How can a machine that is known to kill your knees be of benefit to an OLDER lifter?


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## klc9100 (Mar 30, 2010)

i don't get how it "kills your knees". i do all my squats on a smith and have never had any problems. granted, i don't get crazy with the weight (i'm old) and i've never had knee problems of any kind to come back and haunt me. i like it though.

once i have the bar on my shoulders, i take about a 1/2 step forwards. that actually puts me in a slightly leaning back position. such that i would fall backwards if not on the smith. it feels a little weird, but as soon as i start my squatting motion, my back and everything falls into perfect alignment and gives me a very natural feeling through the entire squat.  it also allows me to squat much deeper without bending me forwards.


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## CowPimp (Mar 30, 2010)

klc9100 said:


> i don't get how it "kills your knees". i do all my squats on a smith and have never had any problems. granted, i don't get crazy with the weight (i'm old) and i've never had knee problems of any kind to come back and haunt me. i like it though.



I went over this already.  There are increased shearing forces on your knee joint.  Now, this doesn't guarantee that everyone will develop knee problems in their life time.  It also doesn't mean you still couldn't develop them later.  Furthermore, we have no idea what your depth is like, how frequently you do them, what kind of volume you work with, if you do any other leg work, if you have a history of knee problems, how strong you are, etc.  Basically, we don't know shit about you, and even if we did, n=1, so sorry to say your individual anecdotal account doesn't mean anything.  Biomechanics dictates that the smith machine sucks monkey cock for squatting.




> once i have the bar on my shoulders, i take about a 1/2 step forwards. that actually puts me in a slightly leaning back position. such that i would fall backwards if not on the smith. it feels a little weird, but as soon as i start my squatting motion, my back and everything falls into perfect alignment and gives me a very natural feeling through the entire squat.  it also allows me to squat much deeper without bending me forwards.



Maybe your spinal position in isolation is in perfect alignment, but it's not possible for your hips, knees, and ankles to be in a perfect position when doing a smith machine squat.  Also, the fact that you don't bend forward at all is one of the primary reasons for increased shearing forces on the knee joint.  The lever is acting almost entirely on the knee joint because your center of mass is unnaturally shifted way posteriorly.

Perhaps it only feels "natural" because you have failed to address your mobility deficits.  As such, going into somewhat of a deep squat without a machine to buttress your torso against feels unnatural, when in fact, squatting deep is a very natural movement.


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## klc9100 (Mar 30, 2010)

CowPimp said:


> I went over this already. There are increased shearing forces on your knee joint. Now, this doesn't guarantee that everyone will develop knee problems in their life time. It also doesn't mean you still couldn't develop them later. Furthermore, we have no idea what your depth is like, how frequently you do them, what kind of volume you work with, if you do any other leg work, if you have a history of knee problems, how strong you are, etc. Basically, we don't know shit about you, and even if we did, n=1, so sorry to say your individual anecdotal account doesn't mean anything. Biomechanics dictates that the smith machine sucks monkey cock for squatting.


 
whatever man, i'm not talking about donkey dicks, biomechanics, ect.  i'm simply sharing my personal experience with the smith machine at my gym, which is the only option i have for doing squats.

you're right though, you don't know shit about me, so why are you being an asshole to me?

i thought this was a discussion board.  i was just trying to discuss, dude.  i wasn't saying you were wrong or anything.  damn, i'm sorry


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## CowPimp (Mar 30, 2010)

klc9100 said:


> whatever man, i'm not talking about donkey dicks, biomechanics, ect.  i'm simply sharing my personal experience with the smith machine at my gym, which is the only option i have for doing squats.
> 
> you're right though, you don't know shit about me, so why are you being an asshole to me?
> 
> i thought this was a discussion board.  i was just trying to discuss, dude.  i wasn't saying you were wrong or anything.  damn, i'm sorry



I didn't intend to be an asshole.  I am just often curt with my responses.  Sometimes it rubs people the wrong way, so sorry about that.

Also, I offered up some other options for you to get your leg work in.  There are usually other options.  I would suggest giving them a try.


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## danzik17 (Mar 30, 2010)

Why is it your only option for squats?  No power rack?  No olympic barbells to just do front squats with?  No heavy DBs/kettlebells to do goblet squats with?

No space to do pistols? (1 legged squats - you really don't need weight for that, trust me)


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## klc9100 (Mar 31, 2010)

CowPimp said:


> I didn't intend to be an asshole. I am just often curt with my responses. Sometimes it rubs people the wrong way, so sorry about that.
> 
> Also, I offered up some other options for you to get your leg work in. There are usually other options. I would suggest giving them a try.


 
it's all good. i will be researching a few of the other types of squats you mentioned before it's leg day next week.



danzik17 said:


> Why is it your only option for squats? No power rack? No olympic barbells to just do front squats with? No heavy DBs/kettlebells to do goblet squats with?
> 
> No space to do pistols? (1 legged squats - you really don't need weight for that, trust me)


 
no, this gym doesn't have much. it's small. the only reason i go there is because it's literally 1 mile from my house, so it's very convenient. because of time restraints (job, kids, homework, cooking, cleaning, laundry, ect. - i'm a single parent) i simply can't make it to a "real gym".  yes, i'm a man, but i have custody of my 2 kids (14 & 10). the closest "big" gym is 20 minutes away.

i just do the best i can with what i have to work with. this is a little 24hr gym, and i guess they don't have stuff in there that you could hurt/kill yourself with, if you were in there alone.


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## DaMayor (Mar 31, 2010)

klc9100 said:


> yes, i'm a man, but i have custody of my 2 kids (14 & 10). the closest "big" gym is 20 minutes away.



Good for you. That must be quite a handful. 



> *i just do the best i can with what i have to work with.* this is a little 24hr gym, and i guess they don't have stuff in there that you could hurt/kill yourself with, if you were in there alone.



That's all you can do....just get creative with what you have.

And, while I understand you are (relatively) new here, I think its important to understand how easy it is to misinterpret the tone of some folk's responses....Mods included. You have to understand that these guys (and gals) field the same questions regularly, and while you may not get that warm fuzzy feeling from their advice, they are usually on point. But, like you said....It's all good.


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## CowPimp (Mar 31, 2010)

klc9100 said:


> i just do the best i can with what i have to work with. this is a little 24hr gym, and i guess they don't have stuff in there that you could hurt/kill yourself with, if you were in there alone.



I totally get that.  In addition to what I said too, a lot of machine movements are not necessarily a bad thing.  Some people are so anti-machine as to be ridiculous.  I think they have their uses, but the majority of work you do with any given movement pattern should be done with free weights in my opinion.  So if you throw in smith squats periodically it's okay, but I would just recommend trying to avoid doing that all the time.

With that said, we had a very knowledgeable member here who was a badass.  He squatted big boy weights on the smith machine regularly and didn't see to have issues.  At the same time though, part of his reason for it was his strict HIT training programs, where safety can potentially be an issue with some freeweight exercises.


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## ectomorph141 (Mar 31, 2010)

Hack Squats are killer if you dont have access to a squat rack.   I lift at home and dont have much room so my only option is hack squats.  You also wont need a rack and you wont need any spotter for these.


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## ALBOB (Mar 31, 2010)

Alright, I've been silent long enough.  BULLSHIT!!!  The Smith machine is NOT the dreaded knee/back destroyer that it's claimed to be.  The only reason I've heard so far is that it forces you to move in a single plane which isn't natural, therefore it MUST be bad.  Again I say BULLSHIT.  If that were the case then the linear leg press would be getting lambasted every bit as much as the Smith machine.  

As a matter of fact, in some cases the Smith is superior to regular squats.  For people with little or no Achilles flexibility, it allows them to place their feet a bit forward of the bar, keep all the weight on their heels.  This isolates the quads and takes stress off the knees.  

Are Smith machines better than free weight squats?  Of course not but, that doesn't make them bad.


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## Merkaba (Mar 31, 2010)

klc9100 said:


> i don't get how it "kills your knees". i do all my squats on a smith and have never had any problems. granted, i don't get crazy with the weight (i'm old) and i've never had knee problems of any kind to come back and haunt me. i like it though.



With all due respect, using this logic, I also know a few people who were on Meth and or Crack...they recovered and now lead pretty normal lives.  I would, however, still caution EXTREEEEEEMELY HEAVILY about not using Crack or Meth. 



Why not put too dumbbells on your shoulders or do front squats, etc......


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## EDD (Mar 31, 2010)

T_man said:


> Use the search option for a generic question like this. Even google will yield good results. Please use this forum for personal questions such as personalised training routines.



WTF you goin on about


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## CowPimp (Mar 31, 2010)

ALBOB said:


> Alright, I've been silent long enough.  BULLSHIT!!!  The Smith machine is NOT the dreaded knee/back destroyer that it's claimed to be.  The only reason I've heard so far is that it forces you to move in a single plane which isn't natural, therefore it MUST be bad.  Again I say BULLSHIT.  If that were the case then the linear leg press would be getting lambasted every bit as much as the Smith machine.
> 
> As a matter of fact, in some cases the Smith is superior to regular squats.  For people with little or no Achilles flexibility, it allows them to place their feet a bit forward of the bar, keep all the weight on their heels.  This isolates the quads and takes stress off the knees.
> 
> Are Smith machines better than free weight squats?  Of course not but, that doesn't make them bad.



The torque on the knee joint is different. The center of mass you are fighting against isn't so far away from your knee on a leg press.  If you place your legs on the leg press properly, there is not as much shearing force on the knee joint.

Again, there are other ways around issues with ankle mobility.  Firstly, you should address the problem if you know it's there rather than just working around the problem.  Second, there are other alternatives, like split squats or powerlifter style box squats, which don't require as much ankle mobility.


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## klc9100 (Apr 1, 2010)

Merkaba said:


> With all due respect, using this logic, I also know a few people who were on Meth and or Crack...they recovered and now lead pretty normal lives. I would, however, still caution EXTREEEEEEMELY HEAVILY about not using Crack or Meth. ......


 
well, i appreciate the warning, but it's too late. in my younger years, i probably smoked-up my body weight in crack. i quit all on my own though when i figured it was time to grow up. i guess i'm just hard headed like that, lol.




Merkaba said:


> Why not put too dumbbells on your shoulders or do front squats, etc......


 
yeah, i'm going to try out a couple new things that have been suggested here on leg day next week. thanks.


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## ALBOB (Apr 1, 2010)

CowPimp said:


> The torque on the knee joint is different. The center of mass you are fighting against isn't so far away from your knee on a leg press.  *If you place your legs on the leg press properly, there is not as much shearing force on the knee joint*.



If you place your legs on the Smith machine properly, there is not as much shear force on the knee joint. 



CowPimp said:


> Again, there are other ways around issues with ankle mobility.  Firstly, you should address the problem if you know it's there rather than just working around the problem.  Second, there are other alternatives, like split squats or powerlifter style box squats, which don't require as much ankle mobility.



No argument here; if you have flexibility problems, address them first.


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## CowPimp (Apr 2, 2010)

ALBOB said:


> If you place your legs on the Smith machine properly, there is not as much shear force on the knee joint.



Again, it's not quite the same.  Anyway, this is all just going in circles.  I think it's okay to do a movement like this SOMETIMES.  I just think it's a problem when people use the movement exclusively for their quadricep work.  It's just like any machine work.  I think using some is absolutely fine, as opposed to purists who believe otherwise.  However, it has to be changed fairly often, and free weight movements should still comprise the majority of the work you do.


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## ALBOB (Apr 2, 2010)

CowPimp said:


> Again, it's not quite the same.  Anyway, this is all just going in circles.  I think it's okay to do a movement like this SOMETIMES.  I just think it's a problem when people use the movement exclusively for their quadricep work.  It's just like any machine work.  I think using some is absolutely fine, as opposed to purists who believe otherwise.  However, it has to be changed fairly often, and free weight movements should still comprise the majority of the work you do.



Ah ha, NOW we're in complete agreement. Machines are a good SUPPLEMENT to free weight work.  Just like regular supplements only add to a good diet.


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## PanterA (Apr 2, 2010)

DaMayor said:


> While the Smith might interfere with proper form, I don't think it is _entirely_ useless.


 
Well I seen a guy sq'ing on those circus balls and I seen another balancing a loaded bb on his feet while lying on the ground and doing like a vertical leg press with it.... I don't think these lifts are entirely useless, but you can bet I'll never do them, lol.

I love the smith for standing calf raises though. Benching hurt my wrist like crazy from having to twist the bar. I'm talking pain that lasted for days (it's common with bb curls but always goes away quickly) after using it twice. 2 weeks in a row. I couldn't even rest my forearms on my legs without it hurting.

I used to train at home and I did db walking lunges and extensions untill I started rigging something up with a bench... I say get you some straps and start doing lunges. I feel for you not being able to sq....


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## Merkaba (Apr 2, 2010)

ALBOB said:


> Ah ha, NOW we're in complete agreement. Machines are a good SUPPLEMENT to free weight work.  Just like regular supplements only add to a good diet.



like glutamine?  

Not all supplements are worth the wasted time and money either, like the smith.


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## WINSTON (Jun 1, 2014)

somew coaches says the smith machine takes the hamstrings out of the squat . so the danger . . smith machine . not heavy for sure . coach poliquin never recommend smith machine .


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## Dr.G (Jun 4, 2014)

EDD if smith machine is your only option then you can use it ..but use it carefully. keep your back straight 9your feet a bit forward as if you are almost leaning on the bar backwards) and do not go all the way down just go down to a tiny bit more than 90 degrees. feet apart a bit pointed outwards. knees aligned with feet. no heavy weights.
you can also use the smith machine and a step for a very good calves workout.


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## Big Smoothy (Jun 5, 2014)

As we know, the smith machine is not a natural body-motion for squats.  BB always best.

Better than nothing, but I'd be careful when going heavy.


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## theCaptn' (Jun 6, 2014)

Smith has allowed me to isolate my quads better without hammering my lower back so much. Smiths have their place imo


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## WINSTON (Jun 6, 2014)

problem that is mostly for bodybuilding . doesnt have much athletic carrover . takes the hams out of the squat .


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## skinnyguy180 (Jun 6, 2014)

Thread revival from 2010!!


I use smith machine all the time for seated shoulder press.  It has a perfect motion and usually after doing DB shoulder press.


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## IronAddict (Jun 6, 2014)

Sure the Smith has its place, you use it like cap says. You ever see the pro's using a Smith?

manageable weight, slow and controlled. If it had no uses they would stop making them...

Like the Tucker or the Edsel.


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## RokSolid15 (Jun 8, 2014)

Smith machine is worthless IMO.  Unless you are doing ballistic bench press you should never use a smith machine for ANY exercise!  Get 2 ppl to help you lift the weights and stand as spotters and if that isn't possible get in a different gym.  When you are able to do squats don't only do the regular back squats. Do a 4 week block of front squat then the next 4 weeks switch to over head squats for 4 weeks then 4 weeks with the regular back squat. Or in any order you want to do them in, the point is don't just do regular squats.  You could also add some squat presses into your routine for more of a whole body compound exercise.


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