# Old School 5X5 Squat Workout



## Will Brink (May 19, 2010)

Old School 5x5 Squat day.  

Below is a recent 5??5 squat workout I did with a few sets of leg presses. The 5??5 is a classic old school but effective program. On my 5??5 squat day, I will often do 2-3 sets of leg press afterward for 3??6. Hamstring work will be done in another workout.

Although the 5??5 is an excellent stand alone program, it can also be incorporated into other programs as I have with my Hybrid program where it???s introduced at specific intervals within a program, that alters volume, loading, reps, etc. For example, BBR member Sumi outlines some of the variations that can be used in her new section following the Hybrid Program.

There are also some great stand-alone 5X5 programs out there people may want to look into and try for say a 10-12 week block to get beyond a plateau. I find one common area of confusion of the 5X5 is loading. After warming up, all sets in the 5X5 are in the 80-85% 1RM range. Taking appropriate rest between sets to allow you to complete all 5 sets using that loading ??? using acceptable form ??? is the essential component of the 5X5.

As for form, I think Coach Staley gives good advice in his article  ???Top Ten Stealth Strategies for Maximizing Your Strength Training Results??? when he advises ???Terminate the training component when the quality of the performance erodes by 10% or more???

That advice is really for intermediate ??? advanced lifters who know the difference between good form and bad, and will then know where their form has degraded enough to know when to stop and to gauge appropriate loading for a given exercise/set.

Beginners ??? early intermediate lifters should aim for perfect form on their exercises until they have the experience to know where and when going slightly outside perfect form is acceptable and productive, and that takes time and training to master. Fact is, many never do, but that???s another issue.

Obviously, exercises chosen for 5X5 are going to be your compound multi joint best ???bang for the buck??? movements that work large numbers of muscles simultaneously such as: squats (front, or back!), deadlifts,  bench presses (and their variations), various types of pull-ups, etc.

One does not do a 5??5 program of leg extensions, concentration curls, and one arm side laterals???. 

Try  a classic old school 5X5 program for a change of pace.






YouTube Video











YouTube - Squat Program Plus Leg Press


----------



## davegmb (May 19, 2010)

So its for strength this then not mass, because im looking to bulk and im doing 5 x 8/9 at the minute.


----------



## Hoglander (May 19, 2010)

I'm speechless


----------



## DOMS (May 19, 2010)

I'm doing a 5x5 routine right now.  This is the second time I've done.  I made great gains in strength and busted through all of my PRs.

It's a great program.


----------



## Will Brink (May 19, 2010)

DOMS said:


> I'm doing a 5x5 routine right now.  This is the second time I've done.  I made great gains in strength and busted through all of my PRs.
> 
> It's a great program.



Agreed, it has many potential uses  and getting to new PRs is common with the 5X5 

Would have been another plate per side for me "back in the day" but all things considered, I can live with it.


----------



## Will Brink (May 19, 2010)

davegmb said:


> So its for strength this then not mass, because im looking to bulk and im doing 5 x 8/9 at the minute.



Say what now? 

Lots of big strong people have done 5X5 and strength is always essential to gaining LBM.


----------



## davegmb (May 19, 2010)

Hoglander said:


> I'm speechless


 
speechless about what?


----------



## Hoglander (May 19, 2010)

Stuff a good global citizen should be speechless about as to promote the greater good.


----------



## davegmb (May 19, 2010)

Hoglander said:


> Stuff a good global citizen should be speechless about as to promote the greater good.


 
O right, good shout


----------



## davegmb (May 19, 2010)

Will Brink said:


> Say what now?
> 
> Lots of big strong people have done 5X5 and strength is always essential to gaining LBM.


 
Im sorry if you took this the wrong way, because thats not the way it was intended i promise you. It was a genuine question, i see so much written saying the bulk range is 6-12 or something similar i was just politely asking if the 5x5 would not work for me in terms of my current goals. Hope i havnt caused offence mate.


----------



## Will Brink (May 19, 2010)

davegmb said:


> Im sorry if you took this the wrong way, because thats not the way it was intended i promise you. It was a genuine question, i see so much written saying the bulk range is 6-12 or something similar i was just politely asking if the 5x5 would not work for me in terms of my current goals. Hope i havnt caused offence mate.



No offense at all. Depending on where you are at in your experience levels, goals, etc, 5X5 can be just what is needed to take your strength and muscle mass to the next level.


----------



## davegmb (May 19, 2010)

Will Brink said:


> No offense at all. Depending on where you are at in your experience levels, goals, etc, 5X5 can be just what is needed to take your strength and muscle mass to the next level.


 
Cheers mate, just so much info out there, gets very confusing...........


----------



## Will Brink (May 20, 2010)

Hoglander said:


> I'm speechless



If you have expert advice to give on the topic, feel free to give it.


----------



## Phineas (May 20, 2010)

davegmb said:


> So its for strength this then not mass, because im looking to bulk and im doing 5 x 8/9 at the minute.



Mass can come from any rep range and/or training style. It's all how you diet.


----------



## Will Brink (May 20, 2010)

Phineas said:


> Mass can come from any rep range and/or training style. It's all how you diet.



I wouldn't agree at all with that statement.


----------



## .:Ã¼berfranz:. (May 24, 2010)

speaking about mass, usually after a strength protocol as 5x5, or even progressions like 5x5 6x4 7x3, I always include a couple of exercises in my WO at higher rep range, usually 3-4 series at 8-10 rep, and sometimes even 15-20, just to shock a bit my muscles. this should be a good approach for those who train for strength but still want some hypertrophy and pumping.


----------



## Gazhole (May 24, 2010)

I gained shitloads of strength and size on a program that consisted entirely of 3's and 5's. Progressive overload and periodization are greater determinants of growth than a particular rep range, from what i've found in myself and others.

And lots of calories, obviously. That goes without saying!

The difference between 5 and 6 reps in a set is negligable, yet 6-12 is always said to be best for growth, and 1-5 not so much. Why not 5 reps? Why not 13 for that matter?

I think 5x5 works so well because theres a lot of volume, and its still pretty heavy. The total volume is only one rep higher than say, 4x6, but the weight is heavier, and for the negligable reduction of 1 rep from each set, you have a whole extra set to push through.

I don't know anybody who hasn't had good results from 5x5.


----------



## cxpharm (May 24, 2010)

5x5 is great. Low reps, High weight= Massive strength gains


----------



## soxmuscle (May 24, 2010)

sets of 5, 3, and even 2 are pretty much as high as I go for bench/squat.


----------



## cxpharm (May 24, 2010)

soxmuscle said:


> sets of 5, 3, and even 2 are pretty much as high as I go for bench/squat.


 
Same here bro, forgot to mention as I work my way up in weight I'll throw in some sets of 2 and 1.

For example.

I'll do 5x5 and if I still feel like I have something in the tank I'll throw on like 250 and do 2 reps. Then like 265 and get one rep and end it. 

Seems to work well.


----------



## Will Brink (May 25, 2010)

soxmuscle said:


> sets of 5, 3, and even 2 are pretty much as high as I go for bench/squat.



A few of the reps are a tad above legal, most are parallel or slightly below. Most lifters working at 80+ 1RM will squat in that range. Mine tend to be higher in the early reps and get deeper, while others it's the reverse. For example, Jim Wendler:

YouTube - Jim Wendler - Squat 525x6

Does that look much different then my depth? Nope. There's a time and a place for ATG squats, and a time and place for parallel.

If you have a vid of yourself squatting under load you feel demonstrates what is the perfect form, by all means, post it.


----------



## davegmb (May 25, 2010)

Changed my deadlift to 5x5 this week due to this article, hopefully see some strength and size gains with it. My squats are on friday coming, do you think i should change them to 5x5 too, at the minute im doing 5x8 on squats and looking to pack on muscle?


----------



## Will Brink (May 25, 2010)

davegmb said:


> Changed my deadlift to 5x5 this week due to this article, hopefully see some strength and size gains with it. My squats are on friday coming, do you think i should change them to 5x5 too, at the minute im doing 5x8 on squats and looking to pack on muscle?



I wouldn't just arbitrarily add 5x5 to your program. I would find a 5x5 program that you feel fits your needs and follow it. There are variations of the 5x5. A Google search turns of a bunch:

Google


----------



## Will Brink (May 25, 2010)

cxpharm said:


> Seems to work well.



But it's not a 5X5 program either.


----------



## gtbmed (May 25, 2010)

The Starr/Pendlay 5x5 program is really, really good.  The biggest problem people have with these types of programs, though, is overestimating maxes and underestimating the difficulty of the program.  It's not easy at all.

I'm currently doing a program more like Rippetoe's, but the general premise is similar.


----------



## Will Brink (May 25, 2010)

gtbmed said:


> It's not easy at all.



Word.


----------



## CaptainNapalm (May 25, 2010)

davegmb said:


> So its for strength this then not mass, because im looking to bulk and im doing 5 x 8/9 at the minute.


 
If you're looking to bulk I would strongly suggest "The 20 rep squat program".  I'm currently on my fourth week of the program and have gained 6 lbs throughout my whole body.  I have another 2.5 weeks on this program and I remain confident that at the end of it I will have gained 10 lbs of mass in 6 weeks.

You can find this routine on gaz's website which also has other great workouts there:

getlifting.info » Hypertrophy Workout Programs

Try it and you won't be dissapointed.


----------



## juggernaut (May 25, 2010)

Will Brink said:


> I wouldn't agree at all with that statement.


Explain, please. Perhaps with some real data. I personally think you're full of shit...but that's just me.


----------



## Will Brink (May 26, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> Explain, please. Perhaps with some real data.



And what's your background for reading/interpreting data?

The burden of proof is on those who make the claim. Where's the data showing "Mass can come from any rep range and/or training style."

You actually think 5lb for 100 reps is going to be equal to 300lbs for six in training effects and all that matters between following those two protocols is the diet? There's no lack of data BTW showing different training effects with different training protocols.

The statement:

"Mass can come from any rep range and/or training style. It's all how you diet." Is simply wrong. If you can't figure that out...


----------



## juggernaut (May 26, 2010)

What's your professional background? Where's your objective data? Make a statement like that and prepare to back it up....or did they not teach you that in ACE course book? 



Will Brink said:


> And what's your background for reading/interpreting data?
> 
> The burden of proof is on those who make the claim. Where's the data showing "Mass can come from any rep range and/or training style."
> 
> ...


----------



## Will Brink (May 26, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> What's your professional background?



Besides the various companies I do consulting work for in the bbing/fitness industry?

I have been a writer for almost two decades and have been published in a wide variety of publications, including: _Muscle Media, MuscleMag International, Lets Live, Muscle n Fitness, Life Extension magazine, Muscular Development, Townsend Letter for Doctors, IronMan, Inside Karate, Tactical Response, Exercise for Men Only, Physical, Power, Body International, Oxygen, Penthouse, Fitness RX, Big_, as well as others over the years and in many different languages. I had a monthly column in _MuscleMag International_ called “The Intake Update” for a decade.

Many of my articles can be found on the major fitness/health/bodybuilding web sites, such as bodybuilding.com and hundreds of other sites. Go to the homepage of this site: http://www.ironmagazine.com/

Scroll down a bit, and there I am...

I travel to speak as an invited guest at conventions and scientific conferences. For example, I spoke at the GNC convention about processing issues of whey proteins and the contaminants found in creatine (see articles on the BrinkZone site for more info on that). Prior to that I was in Canada speaking about the medical benefits of whey protein at the University of Alberta at a symposium on functional foods. I have been interviewed on a variety of topics for Fox News and other networks over the years.

Although I don’t consider myself a researcher in the classic sense (as I don’t work at a research oriented lab) I have been involved in some research, including:

Brink W. Task specific supplements for Special Operations Forces and law enforcement tactical teams. Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition. 3 (1)S1-S29, 2006. (www.theissn.org))

J.Antonio, C.M. Colker, G.C. Torina, Q. Shi, W. Brink, and D. Kalman.  “Effects Of A  Standardized Guggulsterone Phosphate Supplement on the Body Composition in Overweight Adults: A pilot study.” J. of Current Therapeutic Research. Vol. 60, Number 4, p220-227, 1999.

D.Kalman, C.M. Colker, J. Antonio, G.C. Torina, W.D. Brink, Q., Shi. “Effects Of A Guggulsterones Extract-Phosphate Salt Based Product on Body Composition And Energy Levels In Overweight Adults.”  Medicine n Science In Sports n Exercise.  Vol.31, Number 5 (S), 1999.

Antonio J, Kalman D, Colker C, garza T, Brink W, Swain M. “Effects of Creatine-Pyruvate vs. creatine monohydrate on exercise performance.”  J.Strength Cond Res . 1999;13(4):a422.

C.M. Colker, D. Kalman, W.D. Brink, L.G. Maharam. “Immune Status Of Elite Athletes: Role Of Whey Protein Concentrate.” Medicine n Science In Sports n Exercise.  Vol. 30, Number 5 (S), 1998.

Along with Karils Ullis MD, Tim Ziegenfuss PhD, Rick Cohen MD, Bill Roberts, and yours truly, we had a Letter to the Editor published in JAMA regarding our criticism of a  study done on the controversial supplement androstenedione. See:

K. Ullis, T. Ziegenfuss, B.Roberts, WD.Brink,  R. Cohen, “Letter to the Editor: Androstenedione.” JAMA.  February 9th, p 742. 2000

Chapters Written:

“Diet” ( Chapter 5 ) of Sports Supplement Encyclopedia (Edition One) edited by Jose Antonio PhD and Jeff Stout Ph.D. Published by Nutricia Institute of Sports Science 2001. Data based chapter on how athletes can structure their diet to gain lean body mass.

“The Supplement Pyramid” (Chapter 11) of the Sports Supplement Review 3rd Edition by Bill Phillips. An up to date chapter on  various supplements for sports and bodybuilding  nutrition used by athletes and how to prioritize them in order of importance. Published by Mile High publishing. 1997

That's a *small* sample of my background. How about you sport?



juggernaut said:


> Make a statement like



Like what, that I think  the statement he made, that *he* didn't support, is wrong?



juggernaut said:


> that and prepare to back it up....or did they not teach you that in ACE course book?



Again, the most basic tenet of science: the burden of proof is on those who make the claims which you either ignored, or didn't understand. His statement/claim is wrong, and _the burden is on him to support it, not the reverse_. That's basic science 101.

Can't deal with that, move on.


----------



## juggernaut (May 26, 2010)

Will Brink said:


> mememememeememememeememememememeemememememeememememeemememememeeeeeeee.



Fixed.


----------



## juggernaut (May 26, 2010)

I still think you're full of shit, simply because you haven't disproved any of your allegations.


----------



## Will Brink (May 26, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> Fixed.



Ah, so you asked a specific question on my background, got an answer showing it's extensive (far more so then yours no doubt) and the best you can do is the above? Your parents must be proud. 

Good luck kid.


----------



## juggernaut (May 26, 2010)

Will Brink said:


>


cant argue with your me-theories.


----------



## Gazhole (May 26, 2010)

I think taken literally the statement "any rep range" is misleading. I don't think anybody is claiming the extremes of 1x1 and 100x100 are any good at all. I think what Phineas meant was that the traditional "use ONLY 3x6-12 for mass" gym advice isn't true either.

I have no data either, but like i said - i've gained mass on 3x5, 4x15, 3x3, and 8x4. So long as you are progressively overloading your system in SOME way, and eating in a surplus, adaptation (and therefore mass) will occur.

Besides, just saying a rep range doesn't tell you shit about the intensity, tempo, or other variables relevant to that rep range.

5x5 at your 15RM probably wont build muscle either, but what if you extend the tempo to 6x6x? Now each rep is lasting about 14 seconds and a set of 5 is gonna be over 2 minutes TUT - something that has been shown to have a great impact on growth stimulation.

Its reasons like this that are behind statements like "rep range isn't so important", because to a certain extent its only a piece of the stimulus thats actually causing the growth.

Now lets stop the bitching and name calling for fucks sake.


----------



## Will Brink (May 26, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> I think taken literally the statement "any rep range" is misleading. I don't think anybody is claiming the extremes of 1x1 and 100x100 are any good at all. I think what Phineas meant was that the traditional "3x6-12 for mass" gym advice isn't true either.
> 
> I have no data either, but like i said - i've gained mass on 3x5, 4x15, 3x3, and 8x4. So long as you are progressively overloading your system in SOME way, and eating in a surplus, adaptation (and therefore mass) will occur.
> 
> ...



All fair and accurate comments and I agree with the above. Rep ranges are only one of many variables (albeit an important one...) to increasing strength, LBM, etc. There's no magic rep ranges, but, there are rep ranges that appear more effective for getting a specific response, and a well designed program/programs will incorporate the rep ranges that fit the goals of the trainer best. Ergo, a person looking to increase muscular endurance wouldn't do a program that called for 1RMs all the time, and the person looking to gain strength wouldn't follow the program designed for muscular endurance, and so forth.


----------



## juggernaut (May 26, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> I think taken literally the statement "any rep range" is misleading. I don't think anybody is claiming the extremes of 1x1 and 100x100 are any good at all. I think what Phineas meant was that the traditional "use ONLY 3x6-12 for mass" gym advice isn't true either.
> 
> I have no data either, but like i said - i've gained mass on 3x5, 4x15, 3x3, and 8x4. So long as you are progressively overloading your system in SOME way, and eating in a surplus, adaptation (and therefore mass) will occur.
> 
> ...


what you said...but I like name calling, mommmmm!


----------



## Phineas (May 26, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> I think taken literally the statement "any rep range" is misleading. I don't think anybody is claiming the extremes of 1x1 and 100x100 are any good at all. I think what Phineas meant was that the traditional "use ONLY 3x6-12 for mass" gym advice isn't true either.
> 
> I have no data either, but like i said - i've gained mass on 3x5, 4x15, 3x3, and 8x4. So long as you are progressively overloading your system in SOME way, and eating in a surplus, adaptation (and therefore mass) will occur.
> 
> ...



Exactly.

I didn't mean 200 rep sets would work. Then again, who knows, maybe it could???

As Gaz said, muscle growth comes from forcing your muscles to work beyond their comfort zone, but in a strategic manner. The whole "this rep range" and "that rep range" is meaningless, as, again as Gaz said, the rep range is only one of countless training variables that together determine relative intensity. 

There are even some variables that can't be accounted for. You can tell someone to lift "x" weight for "x" reps and sets at "x" tempo with "x" rest intervals with "x" supersets, etc...you can make the training so incredibly complex, but what if their form isn't correct? For instance, on a bent-over BB row let's say someone was following a 3/0/2 tempo, and they slowly pull for a few inches (let's admit this is the easy part of rows) but then jerk the BB up so that they can bring their lats together for that "squeeze" newbies think is so important. Though the tempo was technically followed, I would NOT consider this a quality lift. Control is an immensely important training variable that can't be measured. Tempos can be cheated, and we all know that.

There is no one way to muscle development. There are countless paths. The common denominators, however, are (1.) progressive resistance overload, (2.) adequate recovery for muscles and CNS, and (3.) balanced diet with a caloric surplus.


----------

