# to be aesthetic like Serge Nubret or to be a monster like ronn and the big guys?



## oliver10_28_2k (Apr 25, 2004)

to be aesthetic like Serge Nubret or to be a monster like ronn and the big guys? I know people have various opinions and goals when it comes to bb. Personally I admire the physique of Serge Nubret, and the likes of larry scott, frank zane, and arnold because these guys have are well balanced when it comes to bodypart development. I believe in setting goals in order to be able to achieve our desired phyisique the way we dreamed it would be, and I would like opinions whether You want to be massive like the big guys, or refined like a diamond??? Don't get me wrong, the big guys now are well defined, its just that I would prefer to look like those guys back then...


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## Vieope (Apr 25, 2004)

_Serge Nubret. 
I don´t think that women find ronn very attractive.  _


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## Arnold (Apr 25, 2004)

as I have said before I prefer the physique of Lee Labrada.

http://ironage.us/gallery/bodybuilders/labrada.html


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## derekisdman (Apr 25, 2004)

Definitely aesthetic, regardless of what anyone says, I still think most professional bodybuilders today look ridiculous.


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## Vieope (Apr 25, 2004)

_I have to agree with you *derekisdman*, bodybuilding is supposed to be aesthetic and it is really not today. _


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## Arnold (Apr 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Vieope *_
> _...bodybuilding is supposed to be aesthetic..._



why is it "supposed to be aesthetic"?


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## Vieope (Apr 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> why is it "supposed to be aesthetic"?


_IMO because it needs to show how "beautiful" the human body can be._


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## Vieope (Apr 25, 2004)

_I really don´t know that the judges are looking for in competitions like Mr.O _


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## Arnold (Apr 25, 2004)

I am not disagreeing, that is why I prefer physiques like Lee Labrada and even Shawn Ray, but today's bodybuilding seems to be more about ultimate freaky size, and that also seems to be what the judges are rewarding.


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## oliver10_28_2k (Apr 25, 2004)

any would be fine... just a personal preference on anyones part... =)


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## V Player (Apr 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by derekisdman *_
> Definitely aesthetic, regardless of what anyone says, I still think most professional bodybuilders today look ridiculous.


I agree. I myself preffer the look of Frank Zane, or hey, even LLCoolJ even though he's not really massive. Frank Zane was always my ideal since Im a little guy. Yes, aesthetics first and foremost, but if I can get super round muscles to go with it, so much the better.

And I agree that most women dont find Ron - or guys like him - very attractive. When he was creeping around here in Dallas I saw him a handfull of times and most women just stared and shook their heads, but not with admiration.


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## Vieope (Apr 25, 2004)

[IMG2]http://www.ironage.us/virtual/arnie-ronnie.jpg[/IMG2]

_That is why I prefer the one on the right.  _


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## LAM (Apr 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> as I have said before I prefer the physique of Lee Labrada.
> 
> http://ironage.us/gallery/bodybuilders/labrada.html



ditto...I think guys like Lee Labrada and Bob Paris have the ultimate physiques...


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## BUSTINOUT (Apr 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> as I have said before I prefer the physique of Lee Labrada.



 no doubt about it.


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## supertech (Apr 25, 2004)

I like Lee Preists physique.

preist


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## BigBallaGA (Apr 25, 2004)

FLEX WHEELER


numero uno !


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## OrbitalChime (Apr 25, 2004)

> I agree. I myself preffer the look of Frank Zane, or hey, even LLCoolJ even though he's not really massive. Frank Zane was always my ideal since Im a little guy. Yes, aesthetics first and foremost, but if I can get super round muscles to go with it, so much the better.



Yeah, I like how LLcoolj looks as well, I wouldn't want to be any more massive than that, then again i got a while to till I even approach his physique.


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## V Player (Apr 25, 2004)

Yeah, I think on a little guy like me, a physique like LLCoolJ's is more natural looking and it fits my frame better . Lets face it, Im not a heavyweight, and too much weight slows me down. Im an inch taller than Rey Mysterio of WWE, but muscles like that would make me look like a roid freak too. Im not gonna deny it, but being a man, yeah, I would love to be huge. But at some point you have to ask if its practical, and for me, its not practical when you want optimum performance on the mats.


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## OceanDude (Apr 25, 2004)

I am with most of you here - I prefer aesthetics and fluidity over abnormally large mass. I think that folks like Ronnie and others that have those huge bulging legs that make it seem they would rub their inner legs raw just walking down the street are too uncomfortable looking. Zane & Labrada et-al are closer to the standard I would like to see recapture the attention of the judges. Perhaps its time to start two different areas of bb competition - 1) Mass Competition and 2) Strength and Form Competition.

I'd bet that on a standardized strength-to-weight ratio test the likes of Labrada and Zane would clean house over many of the bigger guys.
-OD


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## Arnold (Apr 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by BigBallaGA *_
> FLEX WHEELER
> 
> numero uno !



he was awesome, don't think he ever will be again, unfortunately.


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## BigBallaGA (Apr 25, 2004)

FLEX 

WAS if not the greatest, unequivocally on the list of top 3 best bodybuilders of all time.....

but it has to be said that had he gone that extra step he would have won atleast 2 or 3 olympias, but where he lacked discipline and dedication he made up in genetics.


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## Arnold (Apr 25, 2004)

I just meant he never will be because of his health problems, I think it's safe to say his pro bodybuilding career is over.


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## seabee (Apr 25, 2004)

I've seen amazing girls with guys like Ron, Lee, and Craig.


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## gr81 (Apr 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Vieope *_
> [IMG2]http://www.ironage.us/virtual/arnie-ronnie.jpg[/IMG2]
> 
> _That is why I prefer the one on the right.  _




Shiat am I the ONLY one that thinks ronnies physique looks much better!! Cmon, he is complete, there are no weaknesses on the body, while Arnold is not the same way. He has a great chest, Bis, and delts no doubt. But Ronnie does to, plus his back and legs are far superior. Give the big man some love, I'd rather have Ronnie freakish mass any day of the week!! ha ha peace


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## Arnold (Apr 25, 2004)

the one thing that is much more pleasing to the eye of the 70's bodybuilders is their waistlines!

you cannot tell so much in that pic, but Ronnie has a HUGE gut, Arnold did not, it was tiny, especially in his side shots.


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## Arnold (Apr 25, 2004)

like this one:


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## oaktownboy (Apr 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> as I have said before I prefer the physique of Lee Labrada.
> 
> http://ironage.us/gallery/bodybuilders/labrada.html


totally agree..him and zane are very "aesthetically" pleasing on the eye...not like genetic freaks with bloated guts like ronnie


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## Mudge (Apr 25, 2004)

Arnold's legs were puny but otherwise, if that picture was not photoshop enhanced then Arnold looks a million times better.

I never apprecaited Zane's body, not much into Paris or Labrada either. Lee Priest yes, Flex Wheeler ~1994 yes. Paul Demayo was not 100% complete but he was a favorite for a long time, Kevin Levrone would be another favorite.


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## Vieope (Apr 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> but Ronnie has a HUGE gut,


_I think that must be the problem. They look "fat". _


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## JerseyDevil (Apr 26, 2004)

That's the infamous 'GH gut'.


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## Rob_NC (Apr 26, 2004)

I just HOPE that I can look 1/2 as good as Zane does when I reach his age.


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## OceanDude (Apr 26, 2004)

About the gut thing, it is important to know that Arnold was one of the most "expert" at the vacuum technique and had incredible muscle control over the abdominal muscles. I am certain that he was using this to "suck" it in to give the natural appearance of an ultra thin mid-section that belies his incredible mass. 

Ronnie, is probably blessed genetically with few subcutaneous fat cells and I suspect that he is probably "cursed" in the amount of fat he caries internally. If my conjecture is accurate he is actually carrying a lot of organ fat in the mid section and may have a physically large gut system that is necessary to support his high mass diet and high metabolism without starving. It certainly looks like he enjoys just letting it hang out and rely on the lean subcutaneous fat and visible abs to offset the bulging internal non-muscle mass with what is essentially an illusion technique.

OD


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## Vieope (Apr 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> few subcutaneous fat cells


_People can get so fat that it might exist a *non*-subcutaneous fat ?  _


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## OceanDude (Apr 26, 2004)

Oh yeah, for sure they can! I have this problem actually. I had my subcutaneous fat down to like 12% based on a 3 point measurement technique. But I still had a fairly thick waist. I am 100% certain that this is mostly because of internal organ fat. The way to confirm it is to take an electronic fat reading device which will measure the internal fat too. It will show that you have a much higher reading in general (especially as you get older) than what the calipers show. There are 3 kinds of fat storage: 1) subcutaneous fat (under the skin) 2) organ fat (around the heart, liver, gut etc.) and 3) intramuscular fat that is very similar to what you see in a cut of steak. By the way, organ fat can be of some benefit since it provides a cushion against vibration and impacts for vital organs. But I have theories about why a lot of obese people have severe heartburn and feelings and difficulty breathing. Basically it???s not rocket science. I think that it???s all the internal fat occupying the cavity volume and compressing or restricting the stomach, intestines and lungs in a way that causes severe discomfort.

Some people store more fat internally since they have fewer fat cells located in the skin. This is a function of genetics and why some weight lifters are able to get massive and still have a well defined abdominal area and muscle definition. Such individuals store the excess internally. This is why I am a big believer in measuring fitness by a strength-to-weight ratio instead of just how much you can lift. 
-OD


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## Mudge (Apr 26, 2004)

Supposedly asian peoples have high amounts of visceral fat with lower amounts of subQ fat. This is all of course by statistics, which sometimes wont be accurate for individuals.


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## Vieope (Apr 26, 2004)

_That is very interesting but do you think that fat number 2 and 3 in your list influence how shredded somebody may look? Through proper dieting they all can be "burned" ? _


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## OceanDude (Apr 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Vieope *_
> _That is very interesting but do you think that fat number 2 and 3 in your list influence how shredded somebody may look? Through proper dieting they all can be "burned" ? _



I do think it is very possible for a person with low subcutaneous body fat to look very shredded and still be carrying substantial organ and intramuscular fat. I would go so far as to say that a person could look good and be carrying a 6 back (like Ronnie Coleman) and still have a lot of lard in his gut on the inside to support the mass. Such a genetically predisposed person would still appear to be in great shape but he would be thicker than an equivalent person with lower overall body fat and possibly be mistaken for having more mass (well it is mass but it ain't lean).

I believe that with proper eating and activity any fat above about 6 or 7% (total bodfy fat mind you) can be burned but I do believe that there is a preferred order or priority protocol as to what goes first and how fast and in what ratios to other things it will be depleted. I think it could take a substantial time depending on body chemistry and genetic makeup. I also personally believe it depends on how long the body has been in an obese state prior to attempting a transformation. I have no science to back this opinion up only my own experiences and observations.

-OD


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## Vieope (Apr 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> I do think it is very possible for a person with low subcutaneous body fat to look very shredded and still be carrying substantial organ and intramuscular fat.



_Oh, thanks.. that is what I wanted to know. 
It is all about vanity  _


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## CowPimp (Apr 26, 2004)

I would much rather be asthetically pleasing.  I don't care about freakish size.  I would prefer noticeable size with freakish strength.  Granted, I give respect to those who can develop ridiculous size because it takes serious hard work and amazing genetics, but it's not for me.


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## ALBOB (Apr 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by LAM *_I like Bob Paris



Damn LAM, you've been out of the Navy how long?  And you're still chasing men?  I'm gonna have to re-think that work-out with you.


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## Flex (Apr 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by oliver10_28_2k *_
> be a monster like ronn and the big guys?



gimme the MONSTER size.


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## Flex (Apr 26, 2004)

anyone can be aesthetique. 

not everyone can be like this...
http://www.darkwoods.com/bodybuilder/male/bb/gallery/fullsize/colema38.jpg


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## Arnold (Apr 26, 2004)

Bob looked good. (his physique  )


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## Flex (Apr 26, 2004)

personally, i think Flex Wheeler of i think it was '98 had the best physique of all time.

size and aesthetiques.....
http://www.darkwoods.com/bodybuilder/male/bb/gallery/fullsize/wheele03.jpg

this was before he bulked way up to try and compete with the mass monsters. unfortunately, he never achieved the size (although he was close) of Ronnie, and unfortunately that's what the judges seem to be after nowadays.


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## Arnold (Apr 26, 2004)

Yup, Flex was very gifted, awesome shape & symmetry.

3 Arnold Classic wins, two 2nd and one 3rd place finishe at the Mr. Olympia....


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## Flex (Apr 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> personally, i think Flex Wheeler of i think it was '98 had the best physique of all time.



besides Arnold of course


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## LAM (Apr 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Robert DiMaggio *_
> Bob looked good. (his physique  )



lol ! it's a good thing you added in that last comment Prince...


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## oliver10_28_2k (Apr 29, 2004)

Yah I guess the small waistline is the plus factor to the pioneers of bb... It gives them the v shape and makes the upper body appear bigger than it really is. I idolize people who are massive and yet have small waistlines because that thing is hard to do naturaly.


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## PreMier (Apr 29, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Arnold's legs were puny but otherwise, if that picture was not photoshop enhanced then Arnold looks a million times better.



I dont think its photoshoped 

http://ironage.us/virtual/index.html


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## PreMier (Apr 29, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> This is why I am a big believer in measuring fitness by a strength-to-weight ratio instead of just how much you can lift.
> -OD



This is totally wrong... The smaller a person is the higher up on the scale they will be.  That is if I am reading this correctly?  

Your saying since a smaller person can lift 2x their weight, while a larger person can do 1.5x, that the smaller person is more fit?


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## oliver10_28_2k (Apr 29, 2004)

more fit may not be the best word because strength alone doesn't make you fitter than the other. Stronger perhaps, not necessarily fitter...


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## PreMier (Apr 29, 2004)

They are not stronger though.  Its easier to move a lighter weight.  So smaller people have the advantage.  Take a look at some powerlifting records.  Actually I will post some.  The big guys dont go up as steadily as the smaller guys(I mean lift wise.)


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## PreMier (Apr 29, 2004)

The 198Lb class almost to the 318Lb class are very close.  Heavier weight is harder to move wether you are bigger or not.
http://www.adfpa.com/records/national/men-highschool.htm


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## oliver10_28_2k (Apr 29, 2004)

oh i see, well I guess there really should be more tests to determine a person's fitness level beside strength..


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## PreMier (Apr 29, 2004)

Oh, and I like Dorian or Arnold

[img2]http://ironage.us/virtual/champs.jpg[/img2]


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## oliver10_28_2k (Apr 29, 2004)

Yeah no doubt those two rock... I was just wondering why Serge Nubret didn't win in any mr.Olympia event when his is massive, proportional, and defined. That guy's physique is definitely a work of art. 

Check this out
http://digilander.libero.it/sergenubret/


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## CowPimp (Apr 29, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by oliver10_28_2k *_
> more fit may not be the best word because strength alone doesn't make you fitter than the other. Stronger perhaps, not necessarily fitter...



There are a couple of problems with that comparison.  You have to take into account height.  Taller people have more bone, skin, etc.  Therefore, there is more "dead weight" on them as opposed to a shorter person.  In addition, their range of motion is wider in all of the classic power lifts (Deadlift, squat, and bench press).  These are two definite disadvantages that must be taken into consideration.


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## OceanDude (Apr 30, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by CowPimp *_
> There are a couple of problems with that comparison.  You have to take into account height.  Taller people have more bone, skin, etc.  Therefore, there is more "dead weight" on them as opposed to a shorter person.  In addition, their range of motion is wider in all of the classic power lifts (Deadlift, squat, and bench press).  These are two definite disadvantages that must be taken into consideration.



This is precisely my point. A lot of guys here don't understand what I am saying. Forget for the momemnt the term "fit" that I used before and replace it with "efficient". What is the advantage of being taller or more muscular if you can't produce more power. There needs to be a marginal advantage in increasing more mass. The concept I am trying to get to indirectly is really efficiency and excess muscle. In my opinion strength is at least 80% in your brain and it's ability to control and recruit fiber in a focused way. In a manner of speaking the more intelligent your muscle control is the more efficient you are and the less muscle fiber you actualy need and the less energy or food intake you need. A person with a high strength to weight ratio is much more "efficient" than a larger person who can lift the same amount of weight and would survive better. So if you strip off the aesthetics part of bb then there is a point where too much muscle is a liability biologically. I was using "fit" in the sense of "survival of the fittest". 

The analogy is a race car engine. What would you rather be racing in a competition a car with an engine that produced 400 hp  and 425 ft-lbs of torque in a 3 liter engine or a car with an engine that produced 405 hp and 430 ft-lb  in a 4 liter engine and was just as reliable? If you wanted to win the race and not just look good you would go with that smaller enginer since it's power-to-weight ratio is much more effective.

For my size I can put out a lot of power (in certain muscle groups) - much more so than a guy 30 lbs more massive than me. The only way I have been able to understand how I can do this is assume that for certain muscles I have much better neurological control than the average person. In other areas (chest) I am average (but I think this is purely technique issues). As best I can tell this this focus is a result of two things: training and improved control and I presume some kind of genetic ability to recruit more fiber or ignore and tune out more pain. 

Next time you see huge guy who can press enormous amounts of weight on the bench or even the squats ask him to do some simple pullups (palms outward). Chances are many won't be able to do more than 2-3 due to improper balance in strength to weight ratio.


-OD


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## vas85 (Apr 30, 2004)

Guys in TODAYS pro BODYBUILDERS i would have to say DEXTER JACKSON for a damn perfect physique but becuase hes shorter i go for Gunter Schlierkamp, Sorry im not a FAN of BUCKLED MID abs, its like Ronnie Coleman has a SPLIT between each LEFT and RIGHT side of his ABS... i find that GROSS like to much of a big gut?? i dont know what the go with that is!
from that link

http://www.darkwoods.com/bodybuilder/male/bb/gallery/fullsize/colema38.jpg


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## vas85 (Apr 30, 2004)

Oh and about being Taller, when you see the TALLER guy next to the shorter bodybuilder, the shorter 1 looks like a SHRIMP  thats why GUNTER rocks!


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## vas85 (Apr 30, 2004)

and guys to the post of "PreMier" What is with Ronnie COlemans legs, they look to me bit like BALOONS disproportionate. :| my opinion, but yeh id love to fit into a physique like Arnolds for all time favourite bodybuilder


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## oliver10_28_2k (Apr 30, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by vas85 *_
> and guys to the post of "PreMier" What is with Ronnie COlemans legs, they look to me bit like BALOONS disproportionate. :| my opinion, but yeh id love to fit into a physique like Arnolds for all time favourite bodybuilder



yeah I agree with you there. That man has hell of a good genetics. I guess we idolize him so much because he broke the barriers in bb nd showed to all what he is capable of.


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## phantom939 (May 1, 2004)

I have to go with Arnold on this one.  I think that the "GH Gut" makes bodybuilders look disgusting.  I'd take Arnolds physique over Ronnies anyday.


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## oliver10_28_2k (May 2, 2004)

yeah... damn right about that one...


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## HoldDaMayo (May 2, 2004)

http://digilander.libero.it/sergenubret/nub34.jpg

damn... what guy wouldn't want to have this physique...


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## V Player (May 2, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by HoldDaMayo *_
> http://digilander.libero.it/sergenubret/nub34.jpg
> 
> damn... what guy wouldn't want to have this physique...


Damright I would!


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## oliver10_28_2k (May 2, 2004)

DIIITTTTTOOOO!!!! sculpted to perfection...


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## Flex (May 3, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by oliver10_28_2k *_
> I was just wondering why Serge Nubret didn't win in any mr.Olympia event when his is massive, proportional, and defined. That guy's physique is definitely a work of art.
> 
> Check this out
> http://digilander.libero.it/sergenubret/



b/c in every Olympia he competed in, Arnold did also. (except for the last one, which Franco won.).

Serge's biggest critique was that he was all upper body/no lower body, and that he wasnt a good poser....


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## darklight (May 3, 2004)

lol


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## oliver10_28_2k (May 3, 2004)

yeah I guess your right... Maybe he just looks good in pictures, but he can't pose as good as ARnold... hehe. Well that sux..


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## BettyBlu (May 4, 2004)

Dayum, all those guys look good. It'd be even better if they were nekkid.
I don't think you can put bodies in numerical order, the cool thing is that even when people have worked to the max their unique bodyshape still shows.
Frank Sepe looks nice. http://www.darkwoods.net/bodybuilder/male/bb/gallery/fullsize/sepe03.jpg


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## vas85 (May 4, 2004)

Hey BettyBlu, i just opened that link and Damn that guys body is in PROPORTION looks just so maddd, coz his legs are very nicely developed but they dont look like blown baloons to me, THUMBSUP


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## Nachez (Nov 13, 2005)

that over dosing of GH 
makes thier organs bigger if you ask me!!!!!!!!!


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## njc (Nov 14, 2005)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> I am not disagreeing, that is why I prefer physiques like Lee Labrada and even Shawn Ray, but today's bodybuilding seems to be more about ultimate freaky size, and that also seems to be what the judges are rewarding.


Could two different awards be possible?

And yeah modern day bodybuilders dont look good to me at all


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## GFR (Nov 14, 2005)

When I post my pics this debate will be over.


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## The Monkey Man (Nov 14, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> When I post my pics this debate will be over.


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## myCATpowerlifts (Nov 14, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> When I post my pics this debate will be over.



*Gay*


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## GFR (Nov 14, 2005)

myCATpowerlifts said:
			
		

> *Gay*


You wish


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## camarosuper6 (Nov 14, 2005)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> When I post my pics this debate will be over.



extreme naseau?


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## GFR (Nov 14, 2005)

camarosuper6 said:
			
		

> extreme naseau?


Please you just got all wet when you read that


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## camarosuper6 (Nov 14, 2005)

Actually, I paused because I couldnt remember how to spell naseua... or whatever.

stupid word.


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## carlito cool (Nov 14, 2005)

Dave batista has a pretty good build


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