# Barbell Incline press vs. Barbell Bench press



## themamasan (Aug 8, 2005)

I am curious to know what is a better overall upper body strength test?  I always thought the bench was, but it seems like you have to have more control on the incline ( thus using more muscles? ).  Also, what pecentage of weight from the bench press should one be able to press on the incline?  I can bench press 290 lbs, but can only incline press 205 lbs. Does this seem accurate for someone trying to achieve an all-around type physique?


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## cpa55 (Aug 8, 2005)

I have always wondered why most people can press more from the flat bench than from the inclined. Which muscle is weaker in the inclined position? The old argument was that you were using upper pecs for the incline, but that horse seems to have been beaten to death here before.


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## ihateschoolmt (Aug 8, 2005)

Incline is weaker because it uses your shoulders more.


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## nike2323 (Sep 25, 2007)

*negative*

the above statement is incorrect.  Incline bench is weaker because you are using mostly chest muscles.  The combination of anterior deltoids (shoulders) and chest muscles allow for a much stronger Flat Bench.  Flat bench isn't even a direct chest exercise......   do standing presses.


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## Delusional (Sep 25, 2007)

nike2323 said:


> the above statement is incorrect.  Incline bench is weaker because you are using mostly chest muscles.  The combination of anterior deltoids (shoulders) and chest muscles allow for a much stronger Flat Bench.  Flat bench isn't even a direct chest exercise......   do standing presses.



wait..so you mean flat bench press isnt that great for chest..and standing presses are better for chest..? i gotta be misunderstanding you somehow. im lost now..


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## KelJu (Sep 25, 2007)

nike2323 said:


> the above statement is incorrect.  Incline bench is weaker because you are using mostly chest muscles.  The combination of anterior deltoids (shoulders) and chest muscles allow for a much stronger Flat Bench.  Flat bench isn't even a direct chest exercise......   do standing presses.



You are wrong. When you incline, you use your shoulders more, and your chest less. Why do you think almost everyone can flat bench press more than they can incline press? The chest is much more powerful than your shoulders. As the angle increases from horizontal to vertical the pectoral muscles are used less, and the shoulders take over. when the angle makes it to full vertical, the chest is used almost none, while the shoulders are doing all of the work.


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## KelJu (Sep 25, 2007)

ihateschoolmt said:


> Incline is weaker because it uses your shoulders more.


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## KelJu (Sep 25, 2007)

cpa55 said:


> I have always wondered why most people can press more from the flat bench than from the inclined. Which muscle is weaker in the inclined position? The old argument was that you were using upper pecs for the incline, but that horse seems to have been beaten to death here before.



This has been explained a million times. The upper, middle, and lower pectoral muscle regions are all connected at the same insertion point, which means for all practical purposes, there is no upper, lower, ect. You can't work just upper or lower chest. That is old nonsense that just won't go away.  

The only thing that changes is the angle at which you press recruits different stabilizer muscles, and entirely different muscle groups.


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## vortrit (Sep 25, 2007)

If you disagree or don't I really like to go the whole spectrum. I like doing Dips, Incline, Flat, Military Press, etc. The more you go vertical the more you use your shoulders (as had already been said). I also like doing some decline work, as well. I can generally do as much on a decline bench as I can flat, if not a little more.


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## BoneCrusher (Sep 25, 2007)

Upper outer pec thread revisited?


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## KelJu (Sep 25, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> Upper outer pec thread revisited?



Unfortunately.


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## Delusional (Sep 25, 2007)

hm. so incline press would be a good exercise on shoulder day then?


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## KelJu (Sep 25, 2007)

Delusional said:


> hm. so incline press would be a good exercise on shoulder day then?



Well, try to get away from thinking in terms of body parts. That was one thing that took me a while to do, but when I did, my training got better. Try to think of training days as movements, because the body doesn't understand parts, only movements. If you were doing pushing movements (vertical pressing, horizontal pressing, and arm extensions), then incline would be fine. But, I never do incline. I figure if you do flat bench pressing and vertical pressing, I'm covered. Incline is still a great exercise, bit it doesn't fit into my training style.


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## r00kie (Sep 25, 2007)

apart from that flat bench press uses lats also (atleast for me), thats why its possible to press more.


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## danzik17 (Sep 25, 2007)

Listen to Kelju on that - get off of training your bodyparts.  I've made 200% more progress in the gym when I started focusing on a good push/pull full body/compound 3 day a week exercise routine than I ever did doing a 5 day per week body part split.

I still stand by that you need to be in incredible shape before isolation is needed to bring you to the next level.  The exception is bringing a lagging muscle up to speed if needed - for example, my right leg is way weaker than my left leg, so I throw in some isolation work for it to make sure my left leg isn't compensating for weakness.


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## KelJu (Sep 26, 2007)

r00kie said:


> apart from that flat bench press uses lats also (atleast for me), thats why its possible to press more.



Lats are not used to bench press.


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## P-funk (Sep 26, 2007)

KelJu said:


> Lats are not used to bench press.



lats internally rotate the shoulder.  so, they do play a roll in bench pressing.


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## buening (Sep 26, 2007)

KelJu said:


> Lats are not used to bench press.



Yeppers, they do. Even more so if you use the powerlifting press motion (elbows tucked) as compared to the bodybuilding press motion (elbows flared). At least i feel them more with them tucked, which may not mean much


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## KelJu (Sep 26, 2007)

P-funk said:


> lats internally rotate the shoulder.  so, they do play a roll in bench pressing.



Wow! I stand corrected. Thanks for straightening that out for me.


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## buening (Sep 26, 2007)

If you take your barbell off the rests without your spotter doing it for you, then you are using your lats to pull the weight to the point over your chest.


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## Delusional (Sep 26, 2007)

buening said:


> If you take your barbell off the rests without your spotter doing it for you, then you are using your lats to pull the weight to the point over your chest.



decatur eh? i live in pekin, decatur rings a bell but i dont think i know where that is.


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## r00kie (Sep 26, 2007)

KelJu said:


> Wow! I stand corrected. Thanks for straightening that out for me.



you are welcome


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## buening (Sep 27, 2007)

Delusional said:


> decatur eh? i live in pekin, decatur rings a bell but i dont think i know where that is.



It's an hour east of Springfield. Basically in the middle of Champaign-Urbana and Springfield


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## nike2323 (Sep 27, 2007)

*.....*

I would like to know how much or how often you all workout per week?
A person doesn't need to do flat bench....it is not a direct chest exercise...in fact it is not a direct exercise for ANY one muscle.  Flat bench is best for shoulder/tricep work.  These are the "weak" muscles in that movement which give out before your chest does...if you do a set of dumbells on a flat bench as a pre-exhaust...then immediately go to decline or incline.....you have much greater chest growth/development.  

High volume advocates love the "more is better" principle.  If you follow this thinking then why don't you just sleep and eat in the gym and workout 6 hours a day, 7 days a week....

If anybody thinks differently of what I have stated.....try substituting the above workout for one month and you will experience better results in half the time spent in the gym.


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## Frankdoc (Sep 27, 2007)

*Both Are Needed*

Hi.

I always find the same discussions about the efficacy of different exercises. Incline and Flat barbell press are not comparable because they work different muscular parts, therefore both are needed to create a whole effective system.

Remember that a whole system is much more important than its parts.


Doc Frank


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## buening (Sep 28, 2007)

nike2323 said:


> I would like to know how much or how often you all workout per week?
> A person doesn't need to do flat bench....it is not a direct chest exercise...in fact it is not a direct exercise for ANY one muscle.  Flat bench is best for shoulder/tricep work.  These are the "weak" muscles in that movement which give out before your chest does...if you do a set of dumbells on a flat bench as a pre-exhaust...then immediately go to decline or incline.....you have much greater chest growth/development.
> 
> High volume advocates love the "more is better" principle.  If you follow this thinking then why don't you just sleep and eat in the gym and workout 6 hours a day, 7 days a week....
> ...



So let me get this straight. You say that the flat bench is not a direct chest exercise and that it works the delts more, yet you recommend doing inclines for better chest development even though inclines work the delts more than flat bench.  You will essentially be fatiguing your shoulders (which are weaker than pecs) in the flat bench and then blasting them with inclines. In my opinion, declines are pretty worthless as they have a reduced ROM and doesn't play nice with the shoulder joint. They are good for a variation every once in awhile, but not a cornerstone for any chest exercise program. Flat bench with inclines will produce a fuller chest based on my experience, that i will agree with you.

If you want to kill your pecs, do dumbbell flies first to pre-exhaust them and then go to the flat bench. I guarantee most people will fatigue in the chest before their shoulders with this method. That is assuming you are into pre-exhaustion. I personally do the reverse, as try to move the heaviest weight first and then finish the chest off with isolation.  But again as stated above, don't think bodypart workouts because if you stress over isolating any muscle you'll never reach your potential. I generally work out 3-4 days a week, depending on the program i'm using.


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## nike2323 (Sep 28, 2007)

*to the above message*

well i'm no expert by any means....

In my recent studies with 5 actual trainees working under my direct supervision... i have noticed that the soreness described by my trainees when doing flat becnh press was more in the shoulders and triceps than in the chest.

I have also personally followed this routine for 3 months now and have yet to go back to flat and have measured results from preexhaust flat dumb...incline.  

Some people judge the effectiveness of a workout by "how sore they got"...   i'm telling you since i began training 6 years ago I get the same amount of soreness from 1 high intensity set that I was getting with 3 high volume sets.

the ONE result that is constant across the board is weight/strength increase in all subjects

So far H.I.T has produced results and that's what i'm standing by.

If you have some friends or relatives that are willing to take your word for it, prescribe a training routine for them and track the results.

I'm curious to know if a 3-4 day a week program will produce the same results.


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## CowPimp (Sep 28, 2007)

Don't forget that there is a greater range of motion used when incline pressing relative to the flat bench press.


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## nike2323 (Oct 4, 2007)

*suck on this*

Secondly, the path of bar movement down to the lower chest level leads to shoulder extension instead of horizontal abduction. The fan shaped muscle of the Pectoralis Major is optimally taxed with horizontal adduction (i.e. the motion you make when you do a pec deck machine). With bench pressing to the lower chest level, the elbows are closer to the torso and the Deltoid takes more workload instead of the chest


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## KelJu (Oct 4, 2007)

nike2323 said:


> I would like to know how much or how often you all workout per week?
> A person doesn't need to do flat bench....it is not a direct chest exercise...in fact it is not a direct exercise for ANY one muscle.  Flat bench is best for shoulder/tricep work.  These are the "weak" muscles in that movement which give out before your chest does...if you do a set of dumbells on a flat bench as a pre-exhaust...then immediately go to decline or incline.....you have much greater chest growth/development.
> 
> High volume advocates love the "more is better" principle.  If you follow this thinking then why don't you just sleep and eat in the gym and workout 6 hours a day, 7 days a week....
> ...




I workout 3.5-4.5 times a week, with each session lasting 50 minutes to an hour.  I workout with very high intensity low volume style of training which works well for me.  

Bench pressing does not recruit your deltoids (shoulder movement) more than your pectoral (chest movement). 

Barbell Bench Press


No one is arguing that shoulders aren't used. Shoulder, triceps, and chest is all used, but it is a primary chest exercise

Barbell Incline Bench Press

As the angle goes from horizontal to vertical, you recruit the deltoids more. 

Somebody back me up on this.


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## nike2323 (Oct 4, 2007)

*check it*

you're only using your chest muscles when you have the bar on or near your chest....  from your chest to about 4 inches up is all chest  from there on up is all triceps and shoulders.  However, in having to touch your chest to "work your chest" you ultimately stretch the shoulder muscles to dangerous levels.  plug this one into google and find a website that actually has medical studies to prove what they are stating....    i'm not on here to argue with anyone about the effects of the bench press, but by changing the angle at which you are benching, ie;  incline    you will get better results...  but don't take my word for it ASK DORIAN YATES!!!


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## KelJu (Oct 4, 2007)

nike2323 said:


> you're only using your chest muscles when you have the bar on or near your chest....  from your chest to about 4 inches up is all chest  from there on up is all triceps and shoulders.  However, in having to touch your chest to "work your chest" you ultimately stretch the shoulder muscles to dangerous levels.  plug this one into google and find a website that actually has medical studies to prove what they are stating....    i'm not on here to argue with anyone about the effects of the bench press, but by changing the angle at which you are benching, ie;  incline    you will get better results...  but don't take my word for it ASK DORIAN YATES!!!



Cite your argument. It is your responsibility, not mine to check your sources.


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## Witchblade (Oct 4, 2007)

Actually the powerlifting and the safe way of bench pressing (as everyone on this forum should be doing) are both pretty mediocre chest exercises. They're really good shoulder and triceps exercises though.

Now bodybuilder's bench presses are a completely different story. That's a pec exercise.


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## PreMier (Oct 4, 2007)

KelJu said:


> I workout 3.5-4.5 times a week, with each session lasting 50 minutes to an hour.  I workout with very high intensity low volume style of training which works well for me.
> 
> Bench pressing does not recruit your deltoids (shoulder movement) more than your pectoral (chest movement).
> 
> ...



i agree with this statement.


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## Double D (Oct 4, 2007)

KelJu said:


> Cite your argument. It is your responsibility, not mine to check your sources.



Agreed, and please dont make FLEX magazine a source.


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## NordicNacho (Oct 4, 2007)

both are good, mix that shit up


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## buening (Oct 8, 2007)

I will agree with you KelJu. 

The higher the incline the more the deltoids are recruited. If you incline to the maximum (completely vertical), you will essentially be doing seated shoulder presses. I'm not saying that incline presses don't produce good results for your chest, but saying the incline bench targets the chest more than flat bench is in my opinion incorrect. Ever wonder why you can flat bench more than you can incline (a typical person anyways)? The pectoral muscle is larger than the deltoids, therefore typically the larger muscle will move more weight when utilized. There is a greater ROM in the incline bench, depending on the angle, but that extra ROM is taken by the deltoids as well as stabilizers. With that said, i alternate between incline dumbbells and flat dumbbell presses and occasionally add in some DB flies. Variety is the key to any workout regimen, especially angles and grips.

Powerlifting vs Bodybuilding flat bench is a different case, but this only applies if you use a barbell. My results were much better using the bodybuilding style, but wreaked havoc on my shoulders after doing them awhile. I switched to the powerlifting style and my lifted weights increased, but my overall growth stagnated. Lifted weight increased because of more recruitment from triceps/delts/lats. I don't seem to get much from barbell presses compared to DB presses, and i feel that my shoulders are much healthier since making the switch to dumbbells. I recommend it to everyone regardless of the angle of pressing. Leave your ego at the door though, because 250lb barbell press doesn't mean you can do 125lb dumbbells 

Please don't take advice from genetic freaks. Those guys can grow just by looking at a weight. Doesn't really matter what exercise you do when on the juice 

I don't trust too many "studies" because where you find one that says something, you'll find ten others that disprove that study. I don't need studies to prove or disprove what I have experienced with real world results. I don't mean to argue with anyone either, just stating my opinion on the matter.


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## KelJu (Oct 8, 2007)

buening said:


> I will agree with you KelJu.
> 
> The higher the incline the more the deltoids are recruited. If you incline to the maximum (completely vertical), you will essentially be doing seated shoulder presses. I'm not saying that incline presses don't produce good results for your chest, but saying the incline bench targets the chest more than flat bench is in my opinion incorrect. Ever wonder why you can flat bench more than you can incline (a typical person anyways)? The pectoral muscle is larger than the deltoids, therefore typically the larger muscle will move more weight when utilized. There is a greater ROM in the incline bench, depending on the angle, but that extra ROM is taken by the deltoids as well as stabilizers. With that said, i alternate between incline dumbbells and flat dumbbell presses and occasionally add in some DB flies. Variety is the key to any workout regimen, especially angles and grips.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of that. You sound very knowledgeable buening, so maybe you can help me out. I have tried doing dumbbell presses, but they wreck my shoulder. Do you have any idea why? My theory is that I have never done them, and my barbell pressing power is somewhere close to 400lbs, and that power is destroying my shoulder when I switch to dumbbells because my supporting muscles have been neglected. That is the only thing I can think of.


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## buening (Oct 9, 2007)

KelJu said:


> I agree with all of that. You sound very knowledgeable buening, so maybe you can help me out. I have tried doing dumbbell presses, but they wreck my shoulder. Do you have any idea why? My theory is that I have never done them, and my barbell pressing power is somewhere close to 400lbs, and that power is destroying my shoulder when I switch to dumbbells because my supporting muscles have been neglected. That is the only thing I can think of.



Thanks. I'm by no means a pro and have a long way to go. What ratio is your dumbbell to barbell weight in presses? To me, i had to really start low on the dumbbells to bring up the stabilizer muscles as well as get used to the motion. There is a big difference pressing a bar that keeps you hands in one spot compared to dumbbells which your hands can go all over the place. My advice (and others could chime in on this) would be to start out with a weight that doesn't hurt your shoulders and slowly increase it. When I switched to dumbbells, i was only benching 200 and had to start out with 60lb dumbbells just to get the motion down and the stabilizers up to speed.

On a similar note, do you use dumbbells for overhead presses as well as barbell? Do you have similar pains?


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