# Why use Nolvadex and Clomid in PCT



## Jimmyinkedup (Aug 24, 2012)

The following explains why it is probably prudent to use BOTH nolvadex and clomid together in your PCT. Its not fully complete with references but its excerpts that explains pretty well. It is by Dr Scally - probably the foremost expert on this topic. Pay particulr attention to his quote from the interview - pretty much sums it up.

_Med Hypotheses. 2009 Jun;72(6):723-8. Epub 2009 Feb 23.

Anabolic steroid-induced hypogonadism--towards a unified hypothesis of anabolic steroid action.

Tan RS, Scally MC.

Source
HPT/Axis Inc., 1660 Beaconshire Road, Houston, TX 77077, USA.

Abstract

Anabolic steroid-induced hypogonadism (ASIH) is the functional incompetence of the testes with subnormal or impaired production of testosterone and/or spermatozoa due to administration of androgens or anabolic steroids. Anabolic-androgenic steroid (AAS), both prescription and nonprescription, use is a cause of ASIH. Current AAS use includes prescribing for wasting associated conditions. Nonprescription AAS use is also believed to lead to AAS dependency or addiction. Together these two uses account for more than four million males taking AAS in one form or another for a limited duration. While both of these uses deal with the effects of AAS administration they do not account for the period after AAS cessation. The signs and symptoms of ASIH directly impact the observation of an increase in muscle mass and muscle strength from AAS administration and also reflect what is believed to demonstrate AAS dependency. More significantly, AAS prescribing after cessation adds the comorbid condition of hypogonadism to their already existing chronic illness. ASIH is critical towards any future planned use of AAS or similar compound to effect positive changes in muscle mass and muscle strength as well as an understanding for what has been termed anabolic steroid dependency. The further understanding and treatments that mitigate or prevent ASIH could contribute to androgen therapies for wasting associated diseases and stopping nonprescription AAS use. This paper proposes a unified hypothesis that the net effects for anabolic steroid administration must necessarily include the period after their cessation or ASIH.

PMID: 19231088 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] _

_Future treatments:
A treatment goal of HPTA restoration will have its basis in the regulation and control of testosterone production. The HPTA has two components, both spermatogenesis and testosterone production.
In males, luteinizing hormone (LH) secretion by the pituitary positively stimulates testicular testosterone (T) production; follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) stimulates testicular spermatozoa production. The pulsatile secretion of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus stimulates LH and FSH secretion. In general, absent FSH, there is no spermatozoa production; absent LH, there is no testosterone production. Regulation of the secretion of GnRH, FSH, and LH occurs partially by the negative
feedback of testosterone and estradiol at the level of the hypothalamo-pituitary. Estradiol has a much larger, inhibitory effect than testosterone, being 200-fold more effective in suppressing LHsecretion [57?61].

In the case of ASIH, where the individual suffers from functional hypogonadism and the belief for eventual return of function, treatment is directed at HPTA restoration. A medical quandary for physicians presented with hypogonadal patients secondary to AAS administration is there is currently no FDA approved drug to restore
HPTA function. Standard treatment to this point has been testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG), conservative therapy (??watchful waiting? or ??do nothing?), or off-label prescribing of aromatase inhibitors or selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERM).

The primary drawback of testosterone replacement and hCG administration is that this therapy is infinite in nature. These treatments will remedy the signs and symptoms associated with hypogonadism, but do not alleviate the need for a life-long commitmentto therapy. Further, administration serves to further HPTA suppression.

Conservative therapy (??watchful waiting? or ??do nothing?) is the probably worst case option as this does nothing to treat the patient with ASIH. Also, conservative therapy will have the undesirable result of the nonprescription AAS user to return to AAS use as a means to avoid ASIH signs and symptoms.

The aromatase inhibitors demonstrate the ability to cause an elevation of the gonadotropins and secondarily serum testosterone [62]. The administration of SERMs is a common treatment in attempts to restore the HPTA because they increase LH secretion from the pituitary that leads to increased local testosterone production
[63?67].

Guay has used clomiphene citrate as therapy for erection dysfunction and secondary hypogonadism. Patients received clomiphene citrate 50 mg per day for 4 months in an attempt to raise their testosterone level [68]. Clomiphene has been reported in a case study to reverse andropause secondary to anabolic?androgenic steroid use [69]. The patient received clomiphene citrate 50 mg twice per day in an attempt to raise his testosterone level. The patient when followed up after two months had a relapse,
tiredness and loss of libido, after discontinuing clomiphene citrate. There are case study reports demonstrating the effectiveness of the combination of clomiphene and tamoxifen in HPTA restorationafter stopping AAS administration [70?73]. 
*Clomiphene is a mixture of the trans (enclomiphene) and cis (zuclomiphene) enantiomers, which have opposite effects upon the estradiol receptor[74]. Enclomiphene is an estradiol antagonist, while zuclomiphene is an estradiol agonist. The addition of tamoxifen to clomiphene might be expected to increase the overall antagonism of the estradiol receptor.*_

Its a long read but I bolded the most pertinent portion. IMO this explains why its most prudent to use both in our pct protocols. I posted it becuse often we see the question cant i just use nolvadex? This shows the importance of the addition of clomid as well. Contrary to popular belief they arent the same but nolvadex is just stronger.

This excerpt from an interview with Dr Scally himself prob explains it much better. Makes alot of sense.

_"Clomiphene is an antiestrogen, which decreases the estrogen effect in the body. It has a dual effect by stimulating the hypothalamic pituitary area and it has an antiestrogenic effect, so that it decreases the effect of estrogen in the body. Tamoxifen is more of a strict antiestrogen, it decreases the effect of estrogen in the body, and potentiates the action of clomiphene. Tamoxifen and clomiphene citrate compete with estrogen for estrogen receptor bind*ing sites, thus eliminating excess estrogen circulation at the level of the hypothalamus and pituitary, allowing gonadotropin production to resume. Administering them together produces an elevation of LH and secondar*ily gonadal sex hormones. "_ Dr Michael Scally


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## blergs. (Aug 24, 2012)

Great post man!


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## ashoprep1 (Aug 24, 2012)

good read


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## tballz (Aug 24, 2012)

Great read!


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## AMA Rider (Aug 24, 2012)

Yeah Man, back in the day all we had was Nolva, and only used it as emergency gyno treatment. It sucked to be so shut down ! This is important - use it. Good post.


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## iSteroids (Aug 24, 2012)

> _The patient when followed up after two months had a relapse,
> tiredness and loss of libido, after discontinuing clomiphene citrate.  There are case study reports demonstrating the effectiveness of the  combination of clomiphene and tamoxifen in HPTA restorationafter  stopping AAS administration
> 
> 
> _



proves once more clomid + nolvadex = good PCT


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## gm09 (Aug 26, 2012)

on my last week of torefimene and aromasin pct.... much less sides than nolva and clomid. feelin great.


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## Jimmyinkedup (Aug 27, 2012)

gm09 said:


> on my last week of torefimene and aromasin pct.... much less sides than nolva and clomid. feelin great.



Yeah Torem is def of interest to me. Doesnt lower igf like nolva. Im still not sold on an ai - even exemestane where there will be no rebound. Seems like a good combo though - esp for igf as both tend to at least not lower and possibly increase it - which would only help retain gains in pct. Im sure Scally's opinions will evolve with time. I just dont like to see one serm alone pct.
Good post man.


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## Bubbles! (Aug 27, 2012)

That's a great read, Jimmy....thanks!


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## SloppyJ (Aug 27, 2012)

I ran a LONG cycle last time with some harsh compounds like tren. I used clomid and nolva in a 6 week pct. 6 weeks after PCT my test results were in the 500's. That's proof enough for me. I'm currently on it again recovering from my last cycle.


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## Jimmyinkedup (Aug 27, 2012)

SloppyJ said:


> I ran a LONG cycle last time with some harsh compounds like tren. I used clomid and nolva in a 6 week pct. 6 weeks after PCT my test results were in the 500's. That's proof enough for me. I'm currently on it again recovering from my last cycle.



Yeah when I run tren or deca i usully extend my pct to 6 weeks as well. Works great.


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## Little BamBam (Sep 18, 2013)

bump for a great post and info for anyone who needs it


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## Drew83 (Sep 18, 2013)

good read! I find it odd how some of my buddies don't run a PCT of any kind. Why knowingly do harm to yourself if you can get around it?


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