# Calculation of Protein Requirements



## 330vert (Apr 11, 2011)

Hi, 
This is a question I have discussed with a few people but never posted about.

Do you Calculate your Protein/Carb requirements (_ie. 1.5g to 1lb etc)_ with your Gross bodyweight or your lean mass. I believe most go by your Gross weight but to me it would make more sense to use your lean mass because you dont need to fuel  fat.
Im currently sitting at around 270lb but with 20% BF so would work on a rough lean mass of 216lbs so 324g Protein et_c. _
Opinions welcome


----------



## Marat (Apr 11, 2011)

You're welcome to eat that much protein if you are comfortable with that intake. However, you can get by just fine with a significantly lower level of intake. 

The broad guideline of 1-1.5g/lb of lbm indicates that you can do fine at an intake as low as 1g/lb of lbm. That translates to a 'bottom floor' of about 215-220 grams of protein each day. Anything above that, more or less, is a matter of comfort.


----------



## ThreeGigs (Apr 11, 2011)

LBM includes bones, brain, blood, internal organs, skin, hair & fingernails and boogers.

An even better protein intake guideline would set a constant basal intake for the above, and an additional amount of protein based solely on how much muscle you're carrying. For example, a 6 foot 180 pound guy probably has similar bone and organ weight to a 6 foot 220 pound guy, yet the 220 lb guy is probably carrying 2x to 3x the muscle mass.

50 grams protein will cover your non-muscle needs more than adequately, and then add 2 to 2.5  grams of protein per pound of _muscle_.  If your 216 lbs of LBM is 100 lbs of muscle, you're looking at 50+200=250 to 50+250=300 grams a day. More is a waste that'll just lighten your wallet and stress your kidneys.

I have never understood why all the protein advice I read about is based on LBM instead of muscle mass.


----------



## Marat (Apr 11, 2011)

ThreeGigs said:


> More is a ... stress your kidneys



This is blatantly false. There's plenty of studies to support this and you'd be hard pressed to find a study of healthy kidneys that supports your statement. 

The impact of protein intake on renal function dec... [Ann Intern Med. 2003] - PubMed result
High-protein diets are not hazardous for the healthy kidneys



ThreeGigs said:


> I have never understood why all the protein advice I read about is based on LBM instead of muscle mass.



It provides an easy calculation to estimate protein intake. Also, I'm not sure that your estimations of muscle mass are accurate -- how did you come up with those figures? How would you know that an individual carries 2-3x more muscle mass compared to an individual who weighs 40 pounds less? Perhaps the heaver person carries 40 pounds more fat and they have the same LBM.


Anyways, you came up with 250-300 and I came up with 225-325. Effectively the same thing but achieved through a simpler equation -- people have enough trouble grasping "LBM" as is.


----------



## SuperLift (Apr 12, 2011)

A person of your size could pretty much eat as much protein as you would like, however I would definitely limit the carbs quite a bit. at 6'2 220, I eat about 350-400g protein every day.


----------



## ThreeGigs (Apr 12, 2011)

Marat said:


> This is blatantly false. There's plenty of studies to support this and you'd be hard pressed to find a study of healthy kidneys that supports your statement.
> 
> The impact of protein intake on renal function dec... [Ann Intern Med. 2003] - PubMed result
> High-protein diets are not hazardous for the healthy kidneys



Actually, your first link says: "However, high total protein intake, particularly high intake of nondairy animal protein, may accelerate renal function decline in women with mild renal insufficiency."
And your second link says: "To conclude, it appears, at least in the short term, that protein intake under 2.8 g/kg does not impair renal function in well-trained athletes."  That's about 1.25 grams per pound.

And I didn't say damage, I said _stress_. I don't know about you, but I don't want to make my kidneys work at a level anywhere near 100% capacity for extended periods of time. Yes, if you're healthy it's no big deal, but if you have 'weak' kidneys (ok, renal insufficiency), you would never know it while on an average diet. I'd rather avoid the potential of renal stress altogether by not oversupplementing protein.




Marat said:


> It provides an easy calculation to estimate protein intake. Also, I'm not sure that your estimations of muscle mass are accurate -- how did you come up with those figures? How would you know that an individual carries 2-3x more muscle mass compared to an individual who weighs 40 pounds less? Perhaps the heaver person carries 40 pounds more fat and they have the same LBM.



Assuming a 160 lb male in his 30's who has a 'typical' physique:
Average skeletal mass (including marrow) is about 24 lbs (15%)
Average muscle mass 64 lbs (40%) and 28 lbs fat (17%).
Plus 10-12 lbs of blood, 3 lbs brain, 3-4 lbs lungs....etc.

RDA for the above average male is 50 grams of protein, but that's just for maintenance. Once he starts bodybuilding his _muscles_ will need more protein, but the rest of him won't (or will need minimal extra amounts). If our 160 lb guy bulked up to 220, he doubled his muscle mass, and I know quite a few 180 lb guys who carried less than 40% muscle (I was one, egads) 

I know recommending protein based on fat-free mass is common, but what works for a guy carrying 120 lbs of muscle with lots of myofibrullar hypertrophy (thus a much higher percentage of actin/myosin) is severe overkill for a 160 lb beginner with half the muscle, or less. So a 160 lb guy just starting out would be fine at 1 gram per pound simply because he's not supporting much muscle. Yet elite lifters might need closer to 2 grams per pound of LBM simply because they're a higher percentage of muscle. Not adjusting the equation to account for non-muscle mass means beginners are getting too much or elite lifters aren't getting enough. 

I dunno, but I think 50+(LBM-100)*2 gets you a more realistic number that would apply to a much broader range of individuals, without being too difficult math-wise.


----------



## Built (Apr 12, 2011)

ThreeGigs said:


> Actually, your first link says: "However, high total protein intake, particularly high intake of nondairy animal protein, may accelerate renal function decline in women with mild renal insufficiency."



Right. If they already have kidney damage, it MAY accelerate the existing damage. MAY. Even in cases of existing kidney damage, it's only conjecture. 


> And your second link says: "To conclude, it appears, at least in the short term, that protein intake under 2.8 g/kg does not impair renal function in well-trained athletes."  That's about 1.25 grams per pound.
> 
> And I didn't say damage, I said _stress_. I don't know about you, but I don't want to make my kidneys work at a level anywhere near 100% capacity for extended periods of time. Yes, if you're healthy it's no big deal, but if you have 'weak' kidneys (ok, renal insufficiency), you would never know it while on an average diet. I'd rather avoid the potential of renal stress altogether by not oversupplementing protein.



Better not lift weights then. Stresses the body. Creatinine levels go up, it's a terrible thing. 




> Assuming a 160 lb male in his 30's who has a 'typical' physique:
> Average skeletal mass (including marrow) is about 24 lbs (15%)
> Average muscle mass 64 lbs (40%) and 28 lbs fat (17%).
> Plus 10-12 lbs of blood, 3 lbs brain, 3-4 lbs lungs....etc.
> ...


It kinda falls apart for chicks: I carry 119 lbs lean mass. 50+(119-100)*2 gives me a WHOPPING 88g of protein daily. 

I rely heavily upon protein for the satiety it induces; I was fat for a long time, and satiety may be permanently impaired in those of us who have lost a lot of bodyfat. If I get in less than about 180-200g of protein daily, I'm RAVENOUS. 

I'll offer something I posted a while back:



Built said:


> According to Bilsborough and Mann, the upper limit of what is considered safe is stated at 365 grams of protein for a person weighing 80kg - roughly 175 lbs. This works out to about 2.1 grams of protein per pound bodyweight.
> 
> Nobody is zero percent bodyfat: healthy-lean for a man is about 10% bodyfat, and for a woman is about 20% bodyfat. The greatest amount of lean mass a person weighing 175 lbs can reasonably be expected to carry is 80%-90% of 175 lbs, which works out to 140-160 lbs.
> 
> ...


----------



## SuperLift (Apr 12, 2011)

I think its a proven fact that excess protein places stress on your kidneys.


----------



## Built (Apr 12, 2011)

SuperLift said:


> I think its a proven fact that excess protein places stress on your kidneys.


News to me. So far, there has never been a single case of anyone with healthy kidneys being harmed by ANY level of protein intake.


----------



## patricio (Apr 13, 2011)

As Built said, high protein diets have no negative impact on otherwise healthy kidneys.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21375795
 However, if you have a previous unknown kidney condition, it may worsen.
So it'll do you no harm visiting your doctor and having a blood test before you start a very high protein diet


----------



## 330vert (Apr 13, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback. I think its like so many things in this sport you have to get as much information as possible and make your decisions from there. Be it trial or error...


----------



## ThreeGigs (Apr 13, 2011)

Built said:


> News to me. So far, there has never been a single case of anyone with healthy kidneys being harmed by ANY level of protein intake.



Stop it with the straw man arguments already!
No one has said anything about kidneys being HARMED by high protein intakes. In fact, I don't think kidneys can be harmed by protein unless you get whacked in the lower back by a 15 kilo bulk bag. We're talking about STRESS, meaning kidney function is pushed closer to (or past) its limits. Then you do have all sorts of harm happening because of too much waste product in the blood.

Fact: 16% of Americans over the age of 20 have some degree of chronic kidney disease. 
Fact: Blood tests of urea/nitrogen or creatinine won't show abnormal levels until you've lost about 60% of your kidney function.
Fact: Higher protein intake results in higher blood levels of metabolites which the kidneys must filter.

All I'm saying is there's got to be a better way of recommending protein intake that is sufficient but not too much overkill, because overkill is bad for the wallet, and might overload one's kidneys. And while it's generally not a problem, I'd rather avoid beginners rolling dice, considering it's a 1 in 6 chance that they will have less than perfect kidneys. Not to mention that acetaminophen and ibuprofen use are associated with kidney dysfunction, and some weightlifters pop those things like candy (unless they've read up on their effects on protein synthesis, that is). Plus any other supplements they're taking may have an impact on how much 'work' is required of the kidneys.



Built said:


> It kinda falls apart for chicks: I carry 119 lbs lean mass. 50+(119-100)*2 gives me a WHOPPING 88g of protein daily.


Yeah, women are about 35% muscle and 25% fat on average, not to mention generally smaller, and certainly don't hypertrophy like men. Definitely a whole 'nother ball game, formula-wise.

I guess my sidetrack question is: Is it worth bothering to come up with a more accurate formula (or chart) that applies to a broader range of individuals (of both sexes) for recommending protein intake? Most of the gram per pound advice I've seen seems geared towards guys packing lots of muscle that needs to be maintained plus account for growth, not weak guys just starting out (which I think is probably half the readership, and maybe more considering experienced lifters wouldn't be looking for that information).  Personally, I think there's a better way, I just don't know what all would need to be taken into account.


----------



## Dustdatarse (Apr 13, 2011)

Hmm, interesting shit, thanks for the debate guys, just learned a few things.


----------



## Built (Apr 13, 2011)

ThreeGigs said:


> Stop it with the straw man arguments already!
> No one has said anything about kidneys being HARMED by high protein intakes. In fact, I don't think kidneys can be harmed by protein unless you get whacked in the lower back by a 15 kilo bulk bag. We're talking about STRESS, meaning kidney function is pushed closer to (or past) its limits. Then you do have all sorts of harm happening because of too much waste product in the blood.



If you thought stressing the kidney wouldn???t cause harm, you wouldn't have raised an alarm. Thus, I raised no straw man with you, okay? So relax. I misunderstood you - I thought you meant the stress to the kidney was harm to the kidney. Am I to understand you actually mean stress to the kidney causes harm to the rest of the body, is that it? I'd just like to be clear before I continue to argue; I'm not fond of a moving target. 



ThreeGigs said:


> Fact: 16% of Americans over the age of 20 have some degree of chronic kidney disease.



What proportion of these are fit, healthy athletes? It's a valid question - healthy athletes are able to handle stresses that obese, sedentary people might not. 



ThreeGigs said:


> Fact: Blood tests of urea/nitrogen or creatinine won't show abnormal levels until you've lost about 60% of your kidney function.


Look at some of mine sometime. The day after a workout, or a dose of creatine, and I've got flags on my bloodwork for creatinine - but normal GFR. Follow-up tests show normal creatinine - and still show normal GFR. 


ThreeGigs said:


> Fact: Higher protein intake results in higher blood levels of metabolites which the kidneys must filter.



So does a heavy workout. 


ThreeGigs said:


> All I'm saying is there's got to be a better way of recommending protein intake that is sufficient but not too much overkill, because overkill is bad for the wallet, and might overload one's kidneys.



High protein intake is satiating, and tends to help in the fight against obesity. Very good for healthy bones, too. 



ThreeGigs said:


> And while it's generally not a problem, I'd rather avoid beginners rolling dice, considering it's a 1 in 6 chance that they will have less than perfect kidneys.


 based on your 16% above? Doubtful. You're implying the problem is genetic, not induced. I'd argue elevated blood glucose are behind a great deal of this figure. 



ThreeGigs said:


> Not to mention that acetaminophen and ibuprofen use are associated with kidney dysfunction, and some weightlifters pop those things like candy (unless they've read up on their effects on protein synthesis, that is). Plus any other supplements they're taking may have an impact on how much 'work' is required of the kidneys.



A lot of people pop analgesics like candy. I did, when I was fat and got headaches all the time. I don???t get 'em now that I eat a high protein diet. Go figure. 


ThreeGigs said:


> Yeah, women are about 35% muscle and 25% fat on average, not to mention generally smaller, and certainly don't hypertrophy like men. Definitely a whole 'nother ball game, formula-wise.


Our appetites are also more strongly regulated by CCK, which is strongly promoted by??? wait for it??? protein! 
Also, I assure you I am NEVER 25% bodyfat. The fattest I get is 19%, maybe 20% at the end of a bulk. Confirmed by DEXA, to save you from asking. I could NOT manage this on a low protein diet. 


ThreeGigs said:


> I guess my sidetrack question is: Is it worth bothering to come up with a more accurate formula (or chart) that applies to a broader range of individuals (of both sexes) for recommending protein intake? Most of the gram per pound advice I've seen seems geared towards guys packing lots of muscle that needs to be maintained plus account for growth, not weak guys just starting out (which I think is probably half the readership, and maybe more considering experienced lifters wouldn't be looking for that information).  Personally, I think there's a better way, I just don't know what all would need to be taken into account.



I think a gram per pound lean mass is a pretty reasonable starting point for most folks, actually. 

I mean, look consider maintenance caloric intake is likely to be about 13 - 15 times their bodyweight in pounds. I'll attach this to a 178 lb man by means of an illustration. Suppose he's carrying 10% bodyfat. His lean mass is about 150 lbs, right? 

So, according to the various "rules of thumb" bandied around these parts, his baseline diet should be:

Protein: at least 1g/lb lean mass (160g, providing 640 calories)
Fat: at least 0.5g/lb lean mass (80g, providing 720 calories )
Calories: 15 x bodyweight (rounding down to be safe, about 2600 calories)
This leaves room for 1200 calories, which could come from carbohydrate, fat in excess of 80g, protein in excess of 160g or any combination of the three. If we leave it at the roughly 300g carbohydrate, buddy's diet turns into something that looks like this: (somebody, check the old woman's math, okay?)

*Baseline diet for bodyweight 178 lbs, 10% bodyfat, 160 lbs lean mass*
Calories: 2600
Fat: 80g; 720 calories; about 30% of caloric intake
Protein: 160g; 640 calories; about 25% of caloric intake
Carbohydrate: 310g; 1240 calories; about 45% of caloric intake

Nothing here is setting off any loud flags of concern regarding protein intake. Not to me, anyway. I'm not a fan of percentage based dietary approaches, but even looking at those, nothing here suggests this is a high protein diet - protein in this case makes up the lowest proportion of dietary intake. 

Even if buddy found his recovery was better and his energy levels and appetite improved when he increased his protein to just shy of 1.5g/lb lean mass and left fats alone, he still won't be floating in a sea of kidney death:

Calories: 2600
Fat: 80g; 720 calories; about 30% of caloric intake
Protein: 235g; 940 calories; about 35% of caloric intake
Carbohydrate: 235g; 940 calories; about 35% of caloric intake

Now listen, I'm generally in agreement here that the importance of protein intake is monstrously overemphasized amongst those looking to pack on size, okay? Invariably it is too satiating; these guys leaning on extra protein find themselves "hardgainers" because they can't eat it all and they need to eat more of the foods that make getting in the extra calories easier. 

I only wish to point out that for one, there are other considerations than simply promoting muscle gain, and for another, the protein intake most folks in physical culture *actually* consume are likely well within a range that will do nothing but at best promote health, satiety and recovery - and at worst metabolize as somewhat expensive carbohydrate.


----------



## SuperLift (Apr 13, 2011)

Protein itself does not damage the kidneys. However, excessive amounts of protein puts extra stress on the kidneys. That's a fact. Im not saying that eating to much protein will put you into renal failure. Im just saying that it makes your kidneys work harder than they should have to. The human body is not designed to take in 500g protein every day, we are not lions..


----------



## Built (Apr 14, 2011)

SuperLift said:


> Protein itself does not damage the kidneys. However, excessive amounts of protein puts extra stress on the kidneys. That's a fact. Im not saying that eating to much protein will put you into renal failure. Im just saying that it makes your kidneys work harder than they should have to. The human body is not designed to take in 500g protein every day, we are not lions..



You falsely accuse me of straw-man, then hand me hyperbole. I did not suggest 500g of protein daily.


----------



## Sidney (Apr 14, 2011)

Every person is different based on musculature and height. Everyone's body is different. Athletes do require more protein because they put moer stress on the muscle. What protein your body doesn't use goes into the toilet. There is no perfect number for how much to take in. The body supposably the body absorbs 25-30 grams at a time. Protein is digested about every 2 hours. Thats why so many diets involve eating every 2-3 hours.


----------



## Built (Apr 14, 2011)

Sidney said:


> What protein your body doesn't use goes into the toilet.


False. 


Sidney said:


> he body supposably the body absorbs 25-30 grams at a time.


Also false. 


Sidney said:


> Protein is digested about every 2 hours. Thats why so many diets involve eating every 2-3 hours.


Although it's turning out to not be true; we may grow muscle better when its consumption is pulsed.


----------

