# HUmalin -r (insuline) Experience



## jay_steel (May 7, 2013)

This was my first time ever running slin...

15iu injected at 530.., immediately got clammy and a little drunk type feeling this could have been mental or it hit quick. So I slammed a protein shake and karbolyn and creatine, after that was perfect.. Had a crazy taste in my mouth though...

Goal was to train at 6pm but didnt actually make it their until 6:30

Started to hit the gym doing DC training so super heavy failure sets... by 7 the slin hit HARD... like really disoriented where i would probably be talking jibberish... I did not feel that bad though, i think i may have over thought it due to never feeling this experience before. I never felt like I was in danger at all. So I had a protein cookie that is about 30g protein and 36 carbs... Felt fine after that and finished my work out. HUGE PUMP like never before.. My buddy was shocked because he saw me walk in and leave. Granted DC today was chest, shoulders, and tri's so my upper body EXPLODED...

Went to go buy a blood sugar tester, but bought the wrong shit so no im out some cash.. I slammed a protein drink and started to sip on karbolyn drank about 25g. did not want to over due it because dinner was in an hour and i felt fine..

RIGHT at 9pm I had this hunger like I could eat the entire house... Felt great no disorientation just pure hunger... Had pasta (50g carb) Chicken (43g protein) and a salad. Felt great finished my home work, I did not want to sleep yet, I wanted to see if it would hit me again. Sure enough at 11 I got a lil clammy, so I slammed my before bed meal. 

This was the trip... I woke up just as volumized as when I left the gym... My abs were showing a bit more as well. I have heard this stuff is strong, and I think I am pretty insulin sensitive because i felt it NICE!!!

I plan on running some trials this weekend. Going to pin 15iu and test my blood sugar after slamming a karbolyn and then test it also with just sipping it to see if slamming it spikes it to high and sipping keeps me in a more stable range. Going to run tests every 15 mins to see how stable my blood sugar is. I also plan on keeping my tester with me at the gym. I understand the power of this stuff and its nothing to get comfortable with.


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## juicespringsteen (May 7, 2013)

whoever suggested you to use 15iu of insulin for your first time is an absolute idiot.


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## D-Lats (May 7, 2013)

15 iu for your first try? That's retarded and dangerous. I started at 4iu. Do some research and thank your lucky stars you didn't kill someone driving home all fucked up. This is how insulin got a bad rap.


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## jay_steel (May 7, 2013)

when did i say i drove all messed up? There was only one time i actually felt it really hit hard and that was during the work out and I am sure i am over playing the hit hard. Just was something new. I felt incredible in the gym.


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## jay_steel (May 7, 2013)

juicespringsteen said:


> whoever suggested you to use 15iu of insulin for your first time is an absolute idiot.



just about 90% of people i spoke with said 10-15 is fine. Just as long as i get my carb intake. This i coming from top level trainers and bodybuilder, as well as fellow forum guys. Some people adviced to start low, but the consensus was that any thing less then 10iu is a waste, that the dangers are overplayed if your responsible with it, which I was. My gym back was packed full of carbs and candy. Only mistake I made was not buying a blood sugar meter before. Which I have now, also had my friends monitoring me during the gym. 

I think SD ran Humalog at 15 his first go and everything went smooth where this was humalin which does not slam you like humalog does.


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## OldSchoolLifter (May 7, 2013)

Humalin R for the first time is rough, and at 15iu damn... Humalog will at least clear your system fast, so you can be in better control. I still use humalin when I run out of Humalog, but preference for me is 10 iu humalog 30 min pre, and 10iu 1 hour post


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## keith1569 (May 7, 2013)

jesus--honestly i would say you need to start at a lower dose and get control of how many carbs you need to eat so you dont have that happen again..i was planning on starting with lin r but at like 4 to 6iu and judge how many carbs i need so i dont have that type of experience..kinda freaks me the fuck out..


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## jay_steel (May 7, 2013)

i can feel it kit in later, but it wasnt as hard as it kicked in while i was at the gym. When at home i just felt hungry, it was on point every hour and half or so I would get another little hit. If they say to eat 10carbs per iu i did over do it for my first time. I was closer to 230-250... I am going to keep the same protocol for now which exception of moving a meal up closer to my pre workout. To keep me full longer, then I will start lowering carbs by 5-10 to find my perfect range. each time i take in carbs pre intra post i will be checking blood sugar and timing it to see if it spikes way up to 200 or stay in that optimum range to help reduce fat gains.


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## jay_steel (May 7, 2013)

keith1569 said:


> jesus--honestly i would say you need to start at a lower dose and get control of how many carbs you need to eat so you dont have that happen again..i was planning on starting with lin r but at like 4 to 6iu and judge how many carbs i need so i dont have that type of experience..kinda freaks me the fuck out..



never once did i feel like i was in serious danger, it was just a different experience then not being on slin. I talked to my buddy who is actually diabetic who bodybuilds and he was telling me the signs of when its dangerous and no where did i reach that level. When I explained to him what I felt he told me thats the ideal time to really put food in. When he gets into his dangerous times, he cant even eat or control his body. I was far from that...Like I said I am sure I am over playing the feeling a little, because it is some thing your not use to. The second I ate carbs bam instantly went away.


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## juicespringsteen (May 7, 2013)

listening to other people on how to use insulin is a great way to end up either fat or dead. in theory, taking in enough carbs to provide your bloodstream with the amount of glucose the insulin will be fighting to deplete is safe. However, you had never tried insulin before and MOST IMPORTANTLY you had no clue what your glucose levels were before injecting 15iu. Im certainly not an expert on anything, but i would have started lower, had my glucose levels pre injection, and would have checked my levels periodically. "feeling" the effects of insulin is not a good thing


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## jay_steel (May 7, 2013)

I agree with you on that juice... Thats why i bought the meter and will be logging everything after the injection. I made that mistake which is why I loaded up on allot of carbs that day. I have my meter now and every thing for it. I am doing DC training so i only use it M W F so W, I will be logging my pre, intra levels all the way until i go to sleep. To see how my body reacts to the carb intake. I know guys who can slam a karbolyn and they stay stable where another his blood sugar hits 200... So he sips on it for 30 mins and it stays stable. I agree I should have been more prepared my first day, but I dont think 15iu was to much, I wont be going higher, but no where during the day to the night did I ever feel I was in danger. Just a different feeling of course, but like you said I didnt know what my blood sugar was at that point either. Thank you all for your concerns and comments its much respected.


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## jay_steel (May 7, 2013)

also currently on 

4iu m-f hgh (hyge browns)
50mg of clomid
HCG still thinking about the dose.. took 500 the other day, but i have been talking about people say to load with 3,000 and then taper down. 
No test, no AAS..

And actually getting REALLY good gains off of everything... I look better then when I finished my bulk in jan and I was at 211-213 and I am 203 right now and look just as big if not bigger. If i make it to 220 I am going to be ecstatic... 

Letting my body rebound and trying to have a kid.


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## OldSchoolLifter (May 7, 2013)

Sip on a bcaa shake while you lift next time. Add 2 scoops dextrose to it, and keep a few glucose tabs in your pocket. 

You seemed to do everything right, reason it hit you so hard while you lifted is because of the use of glycogen for energy as you lift heavy and hard. Sipping on a bcaa shake with some dextrose in the mix, will prevent muscle breakdown as you lift, repairing as you break them down. Just another benefit of insulin use. 

Take advantage of it.


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## jay_steel (May 7, 2013)

i did sip on BCAA as well just one scoop of Forza BCAA.. I will had some carbs to it next time as well. I will pick up some glucose tabs i had gummy bears and pixie sticks just incase.. The protein cookie though was enough to make me feel great. After I had that cookie I felt like I was on a prework out times 10...


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## jay_steel (May 7, 2013)

My muscles are still pumped also from this as well...


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## cottonmouth (May 7, 2013)

First time at 15iu? There is no reason for that risk at all. maybe you second or third run with slin yes, but first time,, just stupid.

 If you had your timing right and macros right, which you would have if you started slow, you wouldn't of even felt the hit. Just a great pump and more veins. To me it sounds like you have it very hobbled together,, no blood glucose monitor, why wouldn't you just wait, ? Do you even have glucose tabs? Your lucky, this is how people die using slin. 

talking gibberish and disoriented yet you didn't feel like you were in danger? HA


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## jay_steel (May 8, 2013)

I probably should have waited and sure i should have gone lower. My macros were on point with phil hernon's plan. I have my tabs and monitor now so today is day number two... yesterday was my recover day, due to DC training only training m w f and cardio one of the other days. I still fill pumped and volumized. Actually woke up leaner this morning as well. I never lost my abs after the show but I lost my obliques, but now they are back again. The fullness you get from this is amazing... 

Yes I may have done day one wrong, but i had plenty of carbs in me, allot of it might have been a mental thing, because i never once really felt like my body was in physical danger. I have heard stories of guys going crazy spending serious time eating tabs and candy to feel better. I never had that urge to rip open the candy that I had and eat it all. I just grabbed my protein cookie and ate it. I like those because they taste freaking awesome and have 40 carbs and 36g of protein.


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## dieseljimmy (May 8, 2013)

I don't think 15 iu is reckless. I think the body building mentality with insulin is dangerous. And I'm guilty of this as well. Gram of test works good. How about 1250, 1500,1750... And now my cycles are built around a gram and a half of test.  I think starting at 15 iu is a questionable decision cause where are you going work up to? It's kinda like your first cycle starting a gram.  
I have gone upto 20 iu preworkout and I have had several very scary moments. I know your well versed and use a degree of caution. But what is hard to describe is the mental perspective when you go hypo. I have started going hypo and I felt like I smoked some salvia or maybe even a whipit. The confusion was scary.  I was at the grocery store once about 3 hours after injecting 17 iu of R. After working out and drinking an ample amount of carbs. i felt a little woozy walking in the store. by the time i got to the produce I was sweating profusely. My shirt was soaked in minutes. I started getting concerned and confused. For whatever reason I decided that chocolate milk was going to the only thing that worked. I walked across the store sat on the floor and drank a half gallon of Choc milk. I spilled it all over me and the floor. There was like 4 people standing around me asking if I was ok asking me if they needed to call 911. Kinda caused a scene. Pretty embarrassed when I came around. I walked by 15 isles of carbs that would have done the job without the scene. But my confusion just drove me to what I knew. The only carbs I could think of was that Choc milk. I often wonder what would have happened if I hadn't been in a store that I knew well.  Since then my insulin use is very moderate.7-10 units preworkout and 2-3 first thing am. And never for more the 8 weeks.  

be cautious and never leave the house without some skittles or glucose tabs or something. Never get comfortable with insulin. It will stick it in your ass if you give it a chance.


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## Standard Donkey (May 8, 2013)

don't listen to the naysayers in this thread... they simply just.. don't know what they are talking about


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## keith1569 (May 8, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> don't listen to the naysayers in this thread... they simply just.. don't know what they are talking about



care to elaborate?


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## jay_steel (May 8, 2013)

dieseljimmy said:


> I don't think 15 iu is reckless. I think the body building mentality with insulin is dangerous. And I'm guilty of this as well. Gram of test works good. How about 1250, 1500,1750... And now my cycles are built around a gram and a half of test.  I think starting at 15 iu is a questionable decision cause where are you going work up to? It's kinda like your first cycle starting a gram.
> I have gone upto 20 iu preworkout and I have had several very scary moments. I know your well versed and use a degree of caution. But what is hard to describe is the mental perspective when you go hypo. I have started going hypo and I felt like I smoked some salvia or maybe even a whipit. The confusion was scary.  I was at the grocery store once about 3 hours after injecting 17 iu of R. After working out and drinking an ample amount of carbs. i felt a little woozy walking in the store. by the time i got to the produce I was sweating profusely. My shirt was soaked in minutes. I started getting concerned and confused. For whatever reason I decided that chocolate milk was going to the only thing that worked. I walked across the store sat on the floor and drank a half gallon of Choc milk. I spilled it all over me and the floor. There was like 4 people standing around me asking if I was ok asking me if they needed to call 911. Kinda caused a scene. Pretty embarrassed when I came around. I walked by 15 isles of carbs that would have done the job without the scene. But my confusion just drove me to what I knew. The only carbs I could think of was that Choc milk. I often wonder what would have happened if I hadn't been in a store that I knew well.  Since then my insulin use is very moderate.7-10 units preworkout and 2-3 first thing am. And never for more the 8 weeks.
> 
> be cautious and never leave the house without some skittles or glucose tabs or something. Never get comfortable with insulin. It will stick it in your ass if you give it a chance.



i have two meters now a pocket meter and a home meter that data logs to my computer. The pocket meter stays in my lil gym bag that i basically have on me at all times after i inject. I have a bottle of tabs, gummy bears, pixie sticks, protein cookies, karbolyn, bcaa all in there. I will be taking my glucose levels every 30 minutes through training. At home every 15 minutes to do data logging what its like at home. My computer will also store it and my cousin is building me a program that I can input what i eat and how fast i ate it and what my blood sugar level is. Kind of like (food x time=bl) this should tell me the best way for my body to take slin and eat with it so I dont get fat. My cousin is basically Sheldon from big bang theory.

I agree this could be scary if it got way out of hand, not saying that its impossible to get out of hand either, but i am taking EVERY precaution now. The first day I overdid it with carbs to be sure of it. I was far from the level you were at, sorry to hear about your story, I was still having conversations with my buddies and they did not see any thing wrong, but i did feel a lil out of the norm. When I say I was talking jib, yeah i would say my mind wasnt 100% focused on my speech at one point, but that lasted less then 30 seconds. Thats when I ate the cookie and was fine for over an hour after before i got hungry again. AFter that i did not feel ANY bad signs just hunger.


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## keith1569 (May 8, 2013)

Glad you have more stuff in line now. 
Definitely keep us updated, I been thinking of adding in lin r myself.


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## HFO3 (May 8, 2013)




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## dieseljimmy (May 8, 2013)

Just keep your eye on it you'll be fine. Your no amature! Insulin is like my puerto Rican buddy. Nice guy but I trust him as far as throw his fat ass. I'm always watching his ass.


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## HFO3 (May 8, 2013)

lol^^^

 I would have fun with trying a 4 week run... I am just not comfortable enough to give it a go yet.


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## jay_steel (May 8, 2013)

I think if done properly its VERY safe, if you have that dedicated diet down to where your meals are on track and you never miss a beat then i think it would be easy. Maybe I am just a lil fucked up trying 15iu at first, but thats me i guess. If you go over carbs your fine, but run the risk of getting REALLY fat. My buddy ran it with not monitoring, but ate a fucking truck load and BLEW UP, never had an issue. Hes shredded as fuck now, but blew up. If you monitor it and taper your carbs as low as your body will allow you and find that optimum zone i see the gains are fucking nuts. 

I like slin so far because i am VERY scientific guy, i like the fact that i can data log this, unlike other drugs you can't with out paying 50$ every damn test. This is quick and easy, yes, dangerous but i have to say 2 days on this is my 3rd day going to pin in 4 hours, its the best feeling i have had since i first started AAS.


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## HFO3 (May 8, 2013)

I am slowly putting together the information and the tools needed for an effective safe run. I plan on a practice low carb protocol without slin just to be sure I have it down while running it. Has anyone ever done that? If so, Please share your results?


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## jay_steel (May 8, 2013)

cant say i have but doesnt seem like a bad idea...

Second Pin

BS-102 @ 5 40 and injected slin...

Did not get clamy like i did last time and kind of waiting in my chair for a few more mins to see if it affects me like it did yesterday. I think allot of it was now in my head unless i got use to it by the second time. I still taste that weird taste in my mouth though. I do get a lil clammy when i inject though and thats with ass period... Dont feel spacy at all, and looking forward to this work out. Going to test BS again at 5:55


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## jay_steel (May 8, 2013)

off to the gym though will report back more tomorrow... will have BS datalogged with the way i feel...


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## Standard Donkey (May 8, 2013)

keith1569 said:


> care to elaborate?



you yourself said that you've never done it, and yet you for some reason feel free to give your input.. can't you see how ignorant that is? when I was planning on running it, everyone was telling me how dangerous it is and how im going to die.. these are people I used to respect on this site.. now I see how clueless they were. I just followed the protocol my coach gave me, and have been using 10iu of Humalog pre-workout ever since, 4 weeks on, 4 off. it's not dangerous.. unless you are a fucking idiot. If you want a solid and safe protocol (one that ive used a bunch of times), look up Mike Arnold's pre-workout Humalog protocol. it calls for 15iu pre-workout. I've done insulin basically as many ways as you can imagine.. pre-workout, during workout, post workout.. subq, intramuscular, even IV.. quick warning though, if you do it pre-workout, taking leucine before your post workout meal will make you go hypoglycemic. I do it anyways though... wears me out before bed


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## HFO3 (May 8, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> you yourself said that you've never done it, and yet you for some reason feel free to give your input.. can't you see how ignorant that is? when I was planning on running it, everyone was telling me how dangerous it is and how im going to die.. these are people I used to respect on this site.. now I see how clueless they were. I just followed the protocol my coach gave me, and have been using 10iu of Humalog pre-workout ever since, 4 weeks on, 4 off. it's not dangerous.. unless you are a fucking idiot. If you want a solid and safe protocol (one that ive used a bunch of times), look up Mike Arnold's pre-workout Humalog protocol. it calls for 15iu pre-workout. I've done insulin basically as many ways as you can imagine.. pre-workout, during workout, post workout.. subq, intramuscular, even IV.. quick warning though, if you do it pre-workout, taking leucine before your post workout meal will make you go hypoglycemic. I do it anyways though... wears me out before bed




Does your coaches protocol differ from mike Arnold's ?
what have you seen in the way of progress?
do you have a proffered protocol over the others?


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## longworthb (May 8, 2013)

So u purposely go hypo before bed?


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## Standard Donkey (May 8, 2013)

longworthb said:


> So u purposely go hypo before bed?


 I go hypo, eat my post workout meal and pass out.. literally. (more than enough carbs to cover the insulin, especially considering I have 30g carbs 45 minutes pre-workout, and drink 80g carbs during my workout).. nothing will drain you like going hypo. The meal brings me back from hypo within minutes... but i still get insanely tired


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## longworthb (May 8, 2013)

Be careful is all i can say man. And what made u want to iv


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## Standard Donkey (May 8, 2013)

HFO3 said:


> Does your coaches protocol differ from mike Arnold's ?
> what have you seen in the way of progress?
> do you have a proffered protocol over the others?



1. yes. 2. size gains, strength gains, insane recovery gains, and endurance gains. 3. i like mike Arnold's because it lets me drink more shakes lol..


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## Standard Donkey (May 8, 2013)

longworthb said:


> Be careful is all i can say man. And what made u want to iv



just to try it


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## jay_steel (May 9, 2013)

Second injection..

Started with BS at 102... 

With 30 mins it dropped to 42 this was at 6:08. Right before my gym time... I felt GREAT though at 42 no weird feelings one bit so I was a bit shocked it was that low. Slammed karbolyn and a Protein shake and waited.
615 its at 57 so I noticed its increasing so I felt great like amped up. So i went to go lift... Felt great no feeling of hypo at all sipping on karbolyn and bcaa
652 its at 85
finished my training at 730 and tested at 74, slammed my protein, no karbolyn because dinner was about ready.

Ate sweet potato fries and turkey meatloaf thats made with oats instead of bread with a ton of veggies in side... (MY FAV)
840 BS 90

Felt great and relaxed watched some tv and then went to go play some games and started to feel HUNGRY again so i felt i was time for my last meal of the day. This was at like 10 15... This one hit me faster I started to feel the hypo coming on but nothing crazy just that slight head feeling. Made 1 cup of oats, 1 scoop of whey and few scoops of greek yogurt blended it up drank it and I was fine. After that there was no more feeling. I didnt get my BS though at 10:15 i wish i would have, but my buddys were yelling at me on skype to get back in the game... So i was rushing..

Day 2 summery 

Was able to keep my BS in normal range and aloud it to drop a bit for feeding, Ive been told by many people that to many people freak out and dont let it drop enough and feed to fast and get fat from it. Every thing I have done so far is IM, i think i will try subq next this friday. Only reason why i have not tried subq yet is because logically IM should hit harder faster and be done faster. I dont want to wait around until midnight when I have to work checking my BS... Firday with no work on sat will be perfect...Pumps are insane, I have put on 4-5lbs just this week and its not fat i can tell you that. I am much harder and leaner as well. I started at 202 and I am at 207 this morning. Remember I am also on NO AAS... So these gains are strictly due to diet, slin forcing food into my body, but diet...HGH is still to fresh to make a difference just got back on HGH 4iu a day, but thinking of going to 8iu on M W F. 

I am feeling great again my rebound from my show was rough, finally got back to my fighting weight and I hope to add on another 7-8 lbs with out AAS. Then when I go back to blasting if I can do that, perhaps a 230 scale will be in my favor. If I can make 230 before my diet I think I will be looking like a BEAST at middle weight. I plan on doing my local show at LHW and then a big LA show next year at MW. the LA show is around 3-4 weeks after this show. This way I dont cut water for my local show just go to go, and get shredded for the MW. 

All and all the only down side to this is my fingers are FUCKING Tender by the end of the day.


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## keith1569 (May 9, 2013)

damn bro, idk much about all this but am learning, it soudns like though you need to be sipping on some bcaa,karbolyn creatine and stuff from before your shot and through a while so you dont have it drop so low..
IDK but sounds like you need to dial in how many carbs you need throughout to kep from feeling hypo like u said at like 10pm.
Could be that i havent seen others post their BS levels on slin but its kinda freaky to see it drop like that


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## jay_steel (May 9, 2013)

this is all experimental to my body. When it went that low, I never once felt hypo at all or bad. Actually was shocked it was low because i was so fired up for the gym. Friday now I will sip on karbolyn for the 30 mins and retest to see improvement. The feeling at 10 pm the last one, it wasnt like a hypo that your thinking when i say i felt it coming on. It wasnt getting hot flashes, blurry vision, or any thing like that. Its all man I am HUNGRY out of no where and your body just tell you its time to eat. I am sure if i was in a place where i couldnt eat then yeah, I would have been in trouble. But the thing is you dont want to eat prematurely because then you run the risk of getting fat. One of my buddies from another forum (who is a monster literally 260 ripped) Told me your body will tell you when to eat. Listen to your body and only eat when it tells you to. 

I dont think its as bad as most people are making it out to be if your eating your carbs. Yes if your irresponsible it can get really bad.


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## XYZ (May 9, 2013)

HFO3 said:


> I am slowly putting together the information and the tools needed for an effective safe run. I plan on a practice low carb protocol without slin just to be sure I have it down while running it. Has anyone ever done that? If so, Please share your results?




Bad idea.


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## XYZ (May 9, 2013)

Jay Steel:

The problem with humulin-r is that is can peek twice and take up to 6.5 hours to clear.  Humalog is a much better option.

I'm not going to slam you for doing 15ius the first go around, but you need to be careful and 99.9% of guys DO NOT check their blood sugar with a glucose meter so I'll give you props for that.


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## keith1569 (May 9, 2013)

Oh ok I understand jay. Thanks for the info and updates


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## jay_steel (May 9, 2013)

XYZ said:


> Jay Steel:
> 
> The problem with humulin-r is that is can peek twice and take up to 6.5 hours to clear.  Humalog is a much better option.
> 
> I'm not going to slam you for doing 15ius the first go around, but you need to be careful and 99.9% of guys DO NOT check their blood sugar with a glucose meter so I'll give you props for that.



Yeah, I plan on swapping over to log soon... I notice the two different spikes thats why i take it prework out vice post so i know its done before i go to sleep. Week days i dont ever leave my house after the gym unless its to take the dogs to play and i will pack a snack and glucose pills. It would be nice to go to Humalog so if any one is thinking about it... I would go Humalog because i can tell you that you will be sitting in your house waiting for it to slam you again if you take it around when i take it. So if your young and like to go out i would say not to.. For me i dont really go any where during the week so its not a big deal and my diet really covers my basis on being enough carbs for slin.


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## HFO3 (May 9, 2013)

XYZ said:


> Bad idea.



ok, please explain why you think it's a bad idea.


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## XYZ (May 9, 2013)

HFO3 said:


> ok, please explain why you think it's a bad idea.



if you use a blood glucose meter, are using humalog and are taking in all of your carbs around training, sure it might work, but what is it you're trying to accomplish getting bigger or smaller (diet)?


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## HFO3 (May 9, 2013)

XYZ said:


> if you use a blood glucose meter, are using humalog and are taking in all of your carbs around training, sure it might work, but what is it you're trying to accomplish getting bigger or smaller (diet)?



I have no personal experience with slin, I am gathering info and have read alot. I am not ready to make a run with slin yet...
 If I do decide to use slin, getting bigger would be my goal. 
I was thinking of running the Mike Arnolds protocol as a dry run so to speak, and add the humalog once I was comfortable with the process. Does that make sense?


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## XYZ (May 9, 2013)

HFO3 said:


> I have no personal experience with slin, I am gathering info and have read alot. I am not ready to make a run with slin yet...
> If I do decide to use slin, getting bigger would be my goal.
> I was thinking of running the Mike Arnolds protocol as a dry run so to speak, and add the humalog once I was comfortable with the process. Does that make sense?



I don't know his protocol, but he seems to know what he's talking about.  

Just keep in mind that no matter what you do, you're going to add some fat on.

Good luck, and nice job on not jumping into this and doing a lot of homework, be safe not sorry.


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## jay_steel (May 10, 2013)

I am taking this day off of the slin. I have to much running around to do (going fishing tomorrow) so i wont have time to manage my carb intake. If i had humalog i would run it, but i wont be at my home for most of the day and wont put my self in that danger of not having carbs accessible.

But this is 5 days since i started and i have to say i am impressed with the response by body has had with not being on AAS.

I look much fuller, larger, tighter, and harder then ever. I look better right now then i was when I was running a gram of test, deca, and drol. I can not wait for inthe future to add those in the mix and see what happens to gains. I woke up at 206 this morning and went to bed at 207. Normally I drop 3lbs in the AM so I am hoping to be close to 210 by tonight. Pump is just as full as it was the day i was in the gym.


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## HFO3 (May 10, 2013)

Impressive, thanks for logging Jay.


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## dirtwarrior (May 10, 2013)

Can it be used to loose fat while maintaining muscle? If so what protocol should be used?


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## dirtwarrior (May 10, 2013)

Found this on the net

This is going to be a long answer because, frankly, there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding about insulin and, as usual, I got a lot to say.
This is because, in a lot of ways, insulin is a schizophrenic hormone.  Depending on what folks read (e.g. bodybuilding literature), they will be told that insulin is great, it?s the most anabolic hormone in the body, it?s key to getting big. And if you read other stuff (a lot of mainstream dieting literature),  you?ll hear that insulin is the devil, it makes you fat and ruins your health.  Who?s right?  Well, everybody?sort of.
As the question above states, it?s best to think of insulin as a generalized storage hormone rather than being good or bad; and what it does, as always, depends on the context.   I should mention that insulin not only affects peripheral tissues such as the liver, muscle and fat cell; it also has central effects in the brain.  I discuss this in Bodyweight Regulation: Part 1 and that series of articles.
When elevated (and I?d note here that while carbohydrate has the primary effect on raising insulin, protein also raises insulin; as well, the combination of protein and carbohydrate raises insulin more than either alone), insulin pushes nutrients into cells.  So insulin stimulates glycogen storage in the liver, it also enhances glycogen storage in skeletal muscle.  And while insulin isn?t that critically involved in protein synthesis per se, it does decrease protein breakdown; as discussed in The Protein Book, this is important for maximal increases in muscle mass.  So far so good.
But insulin also is involved in fat storage which is where it gets its ?bad? characterization.  Insulin activates an enzyme called lipoprotein lipase which is involved in breaking fatty acids off of chylomicrons for storage.  However, this isn?t the only important step in fat storage.
Contrary to popular belief (espoused by people still reading literature from the 1970′s), insulin is neither the only nor single most important hormone involved in fat storage.  Rather, a little compound called acylation stimulation protein (ASP) has been described as ?the most potent stimulator of fat storage in the fat cell?.  And ASP levels can go up without an increase in insulin (although insulin plays a role).
As another effect of insulin on body-fat levels, and this is discussed in some detail in The Stubborn Fat Solution, insulin drastically inhibits lipolysis (fat mobilization) from fat cells. Even fasting insulin levels inhibit lipolysis by up to 50%, even small increases essentially turn off lipolysis completely.   Some could easily interpret this as meaning that ?eating carbs stops fat loss?.  Or it might lead them to conclude that a carbohydrate based diet would make fat loss impossible.
Tangentially I?d note, and one weird little study supports this, that spiking insulin (and letting it crash back down) might be superior for fat loss than the standard strategy of trying to keep insulin low but stable all day long.  The reason is that even tiny amounts of insulin block lipolysis, if you keep insulin low but stable all day, you are effectively impairing lipolysis.  But the study in question showed that blood fatty acid levels came back up much faster when insulin was spiked (which crashed blood glucose back down, lowering insulin).  The drawback, mind you, is that rapidly falling blood glucose tends to make people hungry and calorie control would be nearly impossible with this strategy.  And, as you?ll see below, in a hypocaloric situation, it probably doesn?t matter a bit.
Anyhow, despite the sometimes seen mentality that you must ?cut carbs to get lean?, four decades of practical experience (and endless clinical research) show that that is simply not the case: bodybuilders (well, some bodybuilders) have gotten plenty lean on carb-based diets (of course, others have failed miserably) so it?s obviously not as simple as many would make it.  That?s because whether a high-carb, moderate-carb, or low-carb diet is most appropriate for someone depends on the circumstances; a topic I discuss in Comparing the Diets.
Which brings me the long way around to the first question above.  What is happening in terms of fat loss on a diet that is hypocaloric (below maintenance levels, that is the person is burning more calories than they are consuming) but contains sufficient protein and essential fatty acids but with say 100 grams of carbohydrate? Don?t the carbs prevent fat loss by


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## dirtwarrior (May 10, 2013)

raising insulin?  What?s going on?
To understand what?s going on, I need to explain two terms which are the post-prandial and post-absorptive phases.
Post-prandial phase: this is just a technical term for ?after you?ve eaten a meal?.  In this situation, nutrients are being absorbed and digested from the gut and released into the bloodstream, a whole host of hormones are being released (depending on the macronutrient content of the meal) and the body will generally be in an anabolic state (meaning that more nutrients are being stored than are being released from storage).
Post-absorptive stage: This is what happens between post-prandial phases.  Eventually what you?ve eaten has all been digested, absorbed and either burned for energy or stored in various tissues.  When this happens, hormone levels change an the body starts shifting to an overall catabolic state (I?m using this term generally here to indicate that the body is releasing more nutrients from storage than are being stored).
So throughout the day, the body is shifting between the post-prandial phase and the post-absorptive phase as you eat, that food gets digested and absorbed, and the body starts to draw on stored nutrients (hopefully stored fat in fat cells).
And when you lower caloric intake, over a 24 hour period, the body will end up spending relatively more time in the post-absorptive (remember: body burning stored nutrients) than post-prandial (remember: body storing ingested nutrients) phase.  This is simply a consequence of having less nutrients coming in relative to what?s being burned.
On a diet, meals are smaller (or activity is higher, or both) so any given meal will only maintain an anabolic state for so long (and that time period will be shorter than if the person were eating more) before the body shifts back to burning stored nutrients.  So even in the face of dietary carbohydrate intake, the body still will tap into stored fat; hence fat loss.
I?d note that theoretically this might mean that eating less frequently would improve fat loss, since the body would spend more time between meals in the post-absorptive stage.  Of course, this is probably offset by each meal being larger and therefore taking longer to digest and I tend to doubt it matters in the long-run.  Some interesting research into intermittent fasting suggests that there is more to it than that but that?s another topic for another day.
And this brings me to the second part of the above question, the glycemic index (GI) and insulin.  Which requires another long explanation.  The GI was developed back in the 80′s to help with diabetic meal planning.  Basically it involves feeding folks a fixed amount of a reference carbohydrate (studies have typically used either 50 grams or 100 grams of digestible carbs and while glucose was the original test food, they now use white bread) with blood glucose being measured over a several hour period.  The glucose response to the reference food is defined as having a GI of 100.
Then, whatever food was being tested (again either 50 or 100 grams of digestible carbs were given) and blood glucose was measured, researchers compared the blood glucose response of the test food to the reference food.  If the blood glucose response was say, 80% of the reference food, the test food was given a GI of 80.  If the blood glucose response was 120% of the test food, that?s a GI of 120.  You get the idea. And lower GI values basically meant that the test food was generating a smaller blood glucose response than the reference food.
GI is far from perfect, there is massive individual variability, many foods will show a different GI depending how you cook them  and, as soon as you start mixing foods or adding things like protein, fiber and fat, GI changes (almost always going down).  So GI in and of itself ends up not saying very much in the big scheme of things.    An additional confound is training.  As I discuss in the research review The Influence of the Subjects? Training State on the Glycemic Index, people who are better aerobically trained show a lower GI response than those who are less well trained.
Now, it was always pretty much assumed that the GI was indicative of the insulin response and that lower GI foods caused a lower insulin response than higher GI foods; this is part of where dieters originally got fixated on the issue.  However, it looks like it?s not quite that simple.  While there was some brief interest in an Insulin Index (II) which measured the insulin response to foods in the same way GI does, research seems to have stopped as soon as it started.
As well as I discuss this in detail in the research review article Different Glycemic Indexes of Breakfast Cereals Are Not Due to Glucose Entry into Blood but to Glucose Removal by Tissue there is some evidence that low GI foods are low GI because they generate a fast initial insulin response.
That is, it?s important to realize that the blood glucose response of a food is determined by both its rate of digestion and entry into the bloodstream as well as the rate of glucose storage in tissues such as muscle.  And it looks like low GI foods are not necessarily digesting more slowly but that a fast initial insulin response is clearing more blood glucose.  To quote from the summary of that research article:
?Bran cereal has a low GI because a more rapid insulin-mediated increase in tissue glucose uptake attenuates the increase in blood glucose concentration, despite a similar rate of glucose entry into the blood.?
In this regards, I?d note that adding protein to carbs has been known to lower the GI for a couple of decades.  However, it?s also been established that adding protein to carbs increases the insulin response.   Which is consistent with the conclusions of the paper above, by increasing insulin, protein lowers blood glucose levels giving a lower effective GI.  Just not for the reason that most people think.  And I daresay that most of the ?insulin is evil? people are going to argue that eating more protein hurts fat loss, yes protein increases the insulin response to carbs.  While increasing the insulin response.  Go figure.
Which is a long way of saying that I don?t think the GI and insulin response matter much (although see my final comments below).  If there is much effect of GI on fat loss, it?s more likely to be mediated through food intake and fullness as lower GI foods generally make people feel fuller and often cause decreased food intake.  As I discuss in detail in Is a Calorie a Calorie, this is the typical confound in these types of studies: certain food types often make people spontaneously eat less, causing fat and weight loss and people confuse the food itself with the reduction in food intake that it causes.
It?s also worth noting that a 2006 review paper titled Glycaemix Index Effects on Fuel Partitioning in Humans examined this issue and concluded that:
?Apparently, the glycaemic index-induced serum insulin differences are not sufficient in magnitude and/or duration to modify fuel oxidation.?
Basically, at least outside of the absolute extremes (where it?s possible that some of this stuff might matter), it just doesn?t really seem to matter much outside of any influence on food intake (e.g. if a certain food keeps you fuller and you eat less, it?s good for fat loss; if it doesn?t, it?s not).  Basically:
The GI doesn?t truly indicate the insulin response in the first place, if it does it appears that low-GI foods may be generating a faster initial insulin response in the first place, and none of this seems to meaningfully impact on fuel utilization anyhow.  Certainly any tiny differences in GI between brown and white rice are going to be utterly irrelevant for 99% of cases.
Now, to wrap this up, I?d note that most studies done on this topic are drawing conclusions from average responses and emerging evidence suggests that it?s a bit more complicated than this.  In the article Insulin Sensitivity and Fat Loss, I detail some recent work suggesting that the insulin sensitivity of a given individual interacts with diet; the punchline of that article is that individuals who are insulin resistant (and/or show a pronounced early insulin response to food intake) seem to get superior results from a lower GI/lower-carbohydrate diet.  In contrast, individuals with high insulin sensitivity show superior results on a carb-based diet.  Which is something  I?ve observed for the last 15 years since writing my first book The Ketogenic Diet.
Ok, I know that was long but, as noted initially, there?s a lot of confusion over insulin and I have a lot to say on the topic.  Hopefully I answered your question.
On which note, if you?d like to submit a question for the Q&A, please email me at: questions@bodyrecomposition.com.  Due to the volume of responses, I can?t guarantee a personal response so please check the site to see if I?ve answered it.


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## dirtwarrior (May 10, 2013)

and also this

Insulin Sensitivity and Fat Loss


Over the years, bodybuilding nutrition has divided itself into three fairly distinct categories (I?m going to leave out the ones I consider voodoo nonsense) which are high-carb/low-fat, moderate carb/moderate fat, and low-carbohydrate. Low carb-diets can be further subdivided into high or low fat as well as cyclical or non-cyclical. I discuss each in more detail in Comparing the Diets.
In theory, you can make arguments for or against any of these approaches in terms of superiority. In the real world, it?s not quite that simple. You can always find folks (and this is true whether they are bodybuilders or just general dieters) who either succeeded staggeringly well or failed miserably on one or another approaches.
Before going on, I want to mention that protein recommendations tend not to vary that significantly between diets and most of the arguments tend to revolve around the varying proportions of carbohydrate and fats in the diet and that?s what I?ll be focusing on here. Simply, I don?t consider low-protein fat loss diets in the equation at all for the simple fact that they don?t work for anybody but the extremely obese. Any dieting bodybuilder or athlete needs 1-1.5 g/lb lean body mass of protein on a diet. Possibly more under certain circumstances.
My general experience has been that individuals who respond very well to high-carbohydrate/lower fat diets tend to do very poorly on low-carb/higher-fat diets. They feel terrible (low energy and a mental fog that never goes away), don?t seem to lean out very effectively and it just doesn?t work.
This cuts both ways: folks who don?t respond well to higher carbs do better by lowering carbs and increasing dietary fat. Sometimes that means a moderate carb/moderate fat diet, sometimes it means a full blown ketogenic diet. I should also note that some people seem to do just as well on one diet as another.
Some of this may simply be related to adherence although this tends to be less of an issue in bodybuilders (who take obsessiveness to a new level). Carb-based diets make some people hungry even if they follow all the ?rules?; so they eat more and don?t lose fat effectively. For many of those people, reducing carb intake allows better calorie control in the long-term. People who hate moderation tend to like cyclical ketogenic diets, they can handle no-carbs during the week and massive carb-ups on the weekend; moderate carbs drive them crazy.
But how does all of the above help the neophyte dieter looking to diet down. Put differently, how can someone know ahead of the fact what diet might be optimal for them? Current research is starting to explore a link between diet and genetics and suggesting biological differences in how people respond to diet; that might explain some of the real-world results I described above.
With regards to fat intake, studies have identified what researches call low and high-fat phenotypes (phenotype is just a technical word for the interaction between your genetics and your environment) (1). Some people appear to be better able to increase fat burning in response to higher fat intakes; they stay lean in the face of such an intake. Others, however, do no such thing. Other aspects of metabolism and appetite were associated with being either a high- or low-fat phenotype.
Unfortunately, no practical way of determining which one you might be ever came around. It was also never exclusively determined if the effect was due to inherent biology or simply adaptation to a habitual diet. But the point still stands, biologically, some people seem better able to increase fat oxidation in response to higher fat intakes than others. I think this goes part of the way to explaining the response (good or bad) to high-fat ketogenic diets. People who upregulate fat oxidation well tend to thrive on them; people who don?t just get bloated and don?t lose fat well.
More recently, an interaction between diet effectiveness and both insulin sensitivity and insulin secretion after a meal has been proposed (2). Noting that all of the research to date has been on obese individuals (not dieting bodybuilders), I still think it explains some of what is going on. As well as allowing us to predict ahead of time which diet someone might do best on.
A Very Brief Primer on Insulin Secretion and Sensitivity
To understand the research I want to talk about next, I need to briefly discuss two different but somewhat related aspects of insulin metabolism: insulin sensitivity/resistance and insulin secretion.
As I imagine all of the readers of this know, insulin is a storage hormone released in response to eating with carbohydrates having the largest impact on insulin secretion, protein having the second greatest and fat having little to no impact on insulin secretion. Insulin sensitivity refers to how well or poorly the body responds to the hormone insulin. Individuals who are insulin resistant tend to have higher baseline insulin levels because the body is releasing more in response to try and overcome the resistance.
And while a great majority of insulin resistance is determined by lifestyle (training and diet play a huge role, as does body fatness), so do genetics. At the same bodyfat level, insulin sensitivity can vary nearly 10 fold for genetic reasons. So it?s possible that even lean athletes and bodybuilders could have some degree of genetic insulin resistant (I?ll talk about how to determine this at the end of the article). As it turns out, individuals also differ in how much or how little insulin they release following a standardized meal; some people release more insulin than others in response to a meal. While this can be related to baseline insulin sensitivity, it doesn?t have to be.
It turns out that both issue relate to fat/weight gain or loss (2). In contrast to what is


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## dirtwarrior (May 10, 2013)

generally believed, good overall insulin sensitivity tends to correlate with weight/fat gain and insulin resistance is thought to be an adaptation to prevent further fat/weight gain. However, some research suggests that a tendency to release too much insulin in response to feeding may predispose people towards weight/fat gain. One huge confound in all of this, mind you, is that high insulin secretion tends to make people eat more. Studies of diabetics find that decreasing insulin secretion with drugs tends to cause a spontaneously lower food intake (2).
The Impact of Insulin Sensitivity or Insulin Secretion on Response to Different Diets
While the research is in its infancy, there have been studies examining the weight loss response relative to either insulin sensitivity or insulin secretion. For the most part, no major difference in terms of weight loss has been found in subjects with different insulin sensitivities (2). However, at least one study found that the specific diet given interacted with baseline insulin sensitivity to determine the magnitude of weight loss (3). In that study, obese women with either high or low insulin sensitivity were placed on either a high carb (60% carb, 20% fat) or low carb (40% carb, 40% fat) diets.
So there were four groups: high carb/insulin sensitive, high carb/insulin resistant, low carb/insulin sensitive, low carb/insulin resistant. The results were intriguing: insulin sensitive women on the high carb diet lost nearly double the weight as insulin sensitive women on the low-carb diet. Similarly, insulin resistant women lost twice the weight on the low-carb diet as on the high carb diet. Unfortunately, it?s not clear what caused the divergent results. The researchers mentioned a gene called FOXC2 which is involved in energy expenditure and found that it was upregulated in the individuals who responded best to diet; further research into this topic is needed (3).
Even less data relates to insulin secretion status and diet although a recent study suggests that it may (4). In that study, subjects were given either a high glycemic load (60% carbs, 20% protein, 20% fat) or a low GL diet (40% carbs, 30% protein, 30% fat diet) and weight loss was examined relative to baseline insulin secretion. In that study, subjects with high insulin secretion lost more weight on the low glycemic load diet while subjects in the low insulin secretion group lost slightly more on the high glycemic load diet.
Getting to the Point
Overall, I think the limited data available on both high and low fat phenotypes as well as how individuals with differing baseline insulin sensitivity/secretion respond to diets supports the observations occurring in the real world in terms of both subjective feelings on a given diet as well as the weight/fat loss response. So how can we put this to use?
Unfortunately, there?s no easy way to see if you?re a high or low fat phenotype so I?ll focus on insulin sensitivity. There are a lot of complicated and impractical ways to determine insulin sensitivity and insulin secretion. All involve blood work and looking at either baseline insulin or blood glucose or how insulin changes in response to a meal.
However, in practice, there are signs as to whether you have good insulin sensitivity or not and possibly whether you over-secrete insulin. Here?s two very simple questions to ask yourself regarding your response to diet.
On high-carbohydrate intakes, do you find yourself getting pumped and full or sloppy and bloated? If the former, you have good insulin sensitivity; if the latter, you don?t.
When you eat a large carbohydrate meal, do you find that you have steady and stable energy levels or do you get an energy crash/sleep and get hungry about an hour later? If the former, you probably have normal/low levels of insulin secretion; if the latter, you probably tend to over-secrete insulin which is causing blood glucose to crash which is making you sleepy and hungry.
I consider it most likely that superior bodybuilders couple excellent insulin sensitivity with low insulin secretion in response to a meal. This would tend to explain why bodybuilders have often gravitated towards high carb/low-fat diets and been successful on them.
At the same time, mediocre bodybuilders frequently get less than stellar results from that same diet. Lowering carbs and increasing dietary fat seems to be more effective in that case some of the low-carb bulking strategies out there probably work better for those individuals. The same goes for fat loss. Cyclical low-carb diets such as my Ultimate Diet 2.0 or the more generic cyclical ktogenic diet (CKD) described in my first book The Ketogenic Diet allow such individuals to briefly enjoy the benefits of heightened muscular insulin sensitivity.
Putting it Into Practice
If you have good insulin sensitivity and low insulin secretion, odds are you will do well with a traditional bodybuilding type of diet which means high protein, highish carbs and low fat. Let?s say you?re consuming 1 g/lb of protein at 12 cal/lb. That?s 33% protein. If you go to 1.5 g/lb, that?s 50% protein. That leaves you with 50-67% of your calories to allocate between fat and carbohydrate. 15-20% dietary fat is about the lower limit as it becomes impossible to get sufficient essential fatty acids below that intake level. So, at 1 g/lb, your diet will be roughly 33% protein, 47-52% carbs (call it 45-50%) and 15-20% fat. If protein goes to 50% of the total, carbs should come down to 35% of the total with 15% fat.
If you?re not insulin sensitive and/or have high insulin secretion, a diet lower in carbs and higher in fat (don?t forget that protein can raise insulin as well) is a better choice. Assuming, again, 40% protein, a good starting place might be 40% protein, 20-30% carbs and 20-30% fat. A further shift to a near ketogenic (or cyclical ketogenic) diet may be necessary, 40% protein, 10-20% carbs and the remainder fat may be the most effective. If protein is set higher, up to 50% protein, carbs would be set at 10-20% with the remainder (20-30%) coming from dietary fat.
Summing Up
Hopefully the above has given you some insight into choosing what might be an optimal fat loss diet without having to go through so much tedious trial and error. However, please don?t treat the above as more than a starting point. Adjustments to diet in terms of calories or nutrient intake should always be based on real world fat loss. You should be tracking your fat loss every 2 weeks (4 at the most); if you?re not losing at a reasonable rate (1-1.5 lbs fat loss/week), you need to adjust something.
Bio: Lyle McDonald received his BS in physiology from UCLA in 1993 and has been obsessed with all aspects of human performance (training, nutrition, supplements) since then. He has written extensively about fat loss, especially low carbohydrate dieting. He is currently working on a book covering all aspects of protein nutrition for athletes as well as an approach to getting rid of stubborn bodyfat. His website is http://www.bodyrecomposition and his books can be ordered there by clicking on the store link.


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## dirtwarrior (May 10, 2013)

Not sure what the stuff I posted means can someone put it into easy terms?


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## jay_steel (May 10, 2013)

dirtwarrior said:


> Can it be used to loose fat while maintaining muscle? If so what protocol should be used?



from talking to allot of people that have used and ran it to be lean and ran it to bulk. Most of the ones that ran it to bulk never ran their blood sugar so they would eat constantly when they did not have to. For example, if i wanted to get the befits of my slin and my BS is spiked I should not be eating, I want it to fall with in normal range or slightly below to really cram that carbs and protein in. I have talked to guys that would eat junk and non stop thus getting fat. Where guys that tested there BS found there range would actually let it drop pretty low before they start feeling any hypo. For me mine dropped to 47 and I did not feel a thing. This is the time where I want to feed and feed. After this feed my BS rose to normal ranges (which is what I want and maintained there for about an hour and a half before it started to lower again. 

A friend of mine took his slin 15 iu BS was 105 and slammed a karbalyn, bcaa, protein and ect and his BS hit over 200. I believe that is when you start to really put on the fat. This is why I believe it is so important to data log it to get the best gains. Its a like a race car you have to get your air to fuel ratio perfect for the car to get peak performance and i believe thats how it is with slin. People that get on it with no meters and just stuff their face will get fat. But if you stay with in your macros and eat when you need to by the lowering of BS then you should stay lean.


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## jay_steel (May 14, 2013)

I got my protocol down i think now. Pre insulin BS 97 15iu 30 min prior to the gym Post 10 min injection 88. Drink Protein and take creatine. Sip on 50mg of Karbolyn get to the gym. 30 mins after injection BS 84. Train while sipping on Karbolyn still the same one I was sipping on before and sip on BCAA. hour and half of training BS is 74. Drink protein and go home. Prepare dinner and eat dinner. BS 10 min after dinner 85. Before bed cup of oats and two scoops of whey. BS never fell below 74 that I know of. 

Currently now 210lbs. 

only thing changed is I took 3000 hcg on friday and will do 1000 hcg mon and thurs, until my wife is prego.


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## Bchrysl (May 15, 2013)

just in case anyone skips to this page - yeah its been said 100x 15iu first time? after all the research i completed i would shit my pants thinking about that. i started at 2iu and worked my way up. now i can comfortably do 30iu a day split between two doses, although i dont touch pre workout slin use with a 10 foot pole. sounds like youre getting your shit dialed in tho. 

--question to you that's not necessarily beneficial: why are you using slin only pre work out? why not have an additional dose >= 4 hours apart? im curious more than anything im not recommending this.


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## HFO3 (May 15, 2013)

Question for anyone 

What is your favorite flavor for Karbolyn? 

I'm collecting info... thanks!


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## OldSchoolLifter (May 15, 2013)

Bchrysl said:


> just in case anyone skips to this page - yeah its been said 100x 15iu first time? after all the research i completed i would shit my pants thinking about that. i started at 2iu and worked my way up. now i can comfortably do 30iu a day split between two doses, although i dont touch pre workout slin use with a 10 foot pole. sounds like youre getting your shit dialed in tho.
> 
> --question to you that's not necessarily beneficial: why are you using slin only pre work out? why not have an additional dose >= 4 hours apart? im curious more than anything im not recommending this.



Because the half life of humalin r is much longer than humalog and will be actively in his system working, for a solid 3 hours or more post workout. 

So not only is he benefiting from it pre  workout, building back up the muscle fibers as he breaks them down, he's also getting the post workout benefits in one go. 

Though I prefer humalog, humalin r will provide near the same results. You just need to be a bit more cautious. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2


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## jay_steel (May 15, 2013)

Bchrysl said:


> just in case anyone skips to this page - yeah its been said 100x 15iu first time? after all the research i completed i would shit my pants thinking about that. i started at 2iu and worked my way up. now i can comfortably do 30iu a day split between two doses, although i dont touch pre workout slin use with a 10 foot pole. sounds like youre getting your shit dialed in tho.
> 
> --question to you that's not necessarily beneficial: why are you using slin only pre work out? why not have an additional dose >= 4 hours apart? im curious more than anything im not recommending this.



It really comes down to my job and when I can work out. 

I would take it post, but i only have humalin not log. Probably going to change to log soon. Pre allows me to know its died down by the time i go to sleep. With my last carb meal at 10:20 or 11 i am fine through out the night. I would take it through out the day, but I am an IT and 90% of the time i have time to eat my meals on time, but if i get stuck working on a doctors computer and feeling hypo or we have a system crash i dont want to take advantage of the freedom my employeers all ready give me. 

I am bulking right now, so i feel the protien, bcaa, and carbs replenishing my glycogen while training with slin benefits me the most. I feel really pumped in the gym allmost as if i was on drol. Being on no aas right now this has honestly kept my brain in the game and size coming on. I have put on more then normal bodyfat though but im not worried about that though. I am just focusing on feeding and training. I am probably at 11% right now. My goal was to stay at 9% but i dont think thats possible I may slip to 14% but want to tapper down back to 10% before i start my next prep.


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## jay_steel (May 15, 2013)

HFO3 said:


> Question for anyone
> 
> What is your favorite flavor for Karbolyn?
> 
> I'm collecting info... thanks!



watermelon so far. I went to buy more and accidentally bought fruit punch, its still GOOD but tastes JUST like cherries. Watermelon has this refreshing taste to it. It was the first sweet thing I tasted since i started my prep last month and i was in paradise its sooo good.


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## jay_steel (May 15, 2013)

I am also now 210 today and this is my 5 injection... Remember only pinning it M W F... with 8iu of Hygetropin HGH. I did notice this HGH is making me hold more water then the elitropins I was on last time. But I am bulking also so i dont really care, just want to hit 230... Goal is get as close as possible and as soon as the old lady is prego I will blast drol, dbol, test and npp.. Then finish with tren and low test no orals. Then cruise for some time and then start my contest prep... Dont think i will start it right off with a blast due to doing a LONG prep this time. 18 weeks.


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## jay_steel (May 15, 2013)

Also for any one that is worried about slin, its nothing as long as you have food by you. I probably would never advice 15iu period like I did, but if you do it then just make sure you have a meter on you. My advice for 1st time slin users is pin it and sit on the couch and play some video games. Get use to the feeling. Check your BS every 20 mins or so. Then jump into your protocol and train. I did not pin on friday because i knew i wouldnt be around food and good thing i didnt because i probably would have gone hypo in the middle of dicks sporting goods. Even though they do have some carb supplements there. That would not have been good. Plan your day around the slin if your on humalin. This is the only thing I dont like. If my wife wants to go for a walk and i know i need to feed in 30 mins i have to tell her no.


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## fit4life (May 15, 2013)

I have followed along with you "jay_steel and with all this the info you given i thought you were big bro, you BARELY weigh 200lbs? No way I would take your advice.  No way to sugarcoat this but get back to the basics and put some size on.  After i saw your stats i couldnt believe i wasted my time reading thru this, sorry.


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## jay_steel (May 16, 2013)

titan said:


> I have followed along with you "jay_steel and with all this the info you given i thought you were big bro, you BARELY weigh 200lbs? No way I would take your advice.  No way to sugarcoat this but get back to the basics and put some size on.  After i saw your stats i couldnt believe i wasted my time reading thru this, sorry.



good then get the fuck out of my thread then.. I may not be the biggest guy here but I have zero desire to weight 260 and be a LHW or a HW in bodybuilding. I want to stay MW and compete at the national level. So if you say being under 200 or shit my goal is to stay competing at 176 is small your a retard there are plenty of guys that weight that who are huge. Franco Columbu was only 185 lbs he must have been small too. I guess my 430 bench, 315 8 times on incline 540 squat all means i am also weak as well right. 

When did I ever say i was the biggest guy in the thread? My AVI is right there and you can see it for your self, I have nothing to hide. I am not monster, but I only have only been training for 2.5 years so the gains I have made have been GREAT. What will I look like next year on stage, I hope enough to pull a big show and in two years I hope to make USA's. My life is currently revolving around bodybuilding period. I also know plenty of smaller guys who train top level IFBB guys. Shit some of them were not even PRO's just in the NPC level but yet they train IFBB guys such as Shelby Starnes. He isnt no 300lb monster, but yet he trains them? Wait hes smaller we shouldnt read any thing he says, because hes smaller then me. This thread has nothing to do with telling you how to take insulin, its giving my friends here on the forum a chance to follow my experience with it. It may help some people who were on the fence about it.

FYI everyone on ironmag... If your not HUGE dont post stuff about AAS, HGH, and SLIN because your knowledge, experience, or opinion doesnt mean shit if your not HUGE!!.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yesterday was a GREAT day in the gym... All my strength is about back to where it was when i was on AAS. My legs strength is back finally. (when dieting i had joint pain and heaviest i could go was 135) I was single leg pressing 315 for 8 reps DC style meaning 8 reps was failure then took 15 seconds to complete another failure and then repeat that again.

Gains are sky rocketing. Woke up today even leaner then I was the day before and the same weight. My abs were gone for a week and they are back now. Currently doing  M W F high carb days T T is low carbs below 90 and S S is eat what ever as long as i get my macros.


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## keith1569 (May 16, 2013)

Digging the log brother 

And yes you are weak, if u were 260 imagine how much stronger you would be hahaha 
Just messing with ya


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## Standard Donkey (May 16, 2013)

jay_steel said:


> Shelby Starnes. He isnt no 300lb monster, but yet he trains them? Wait hes smaller we shouldnt read any thing he says, because hes smaller then me. This thread has nothing to do with telling you how to take insulin, its giving my friends here on the forum a chance to follow my experience with it. It may help some people who were on the fence about it.



Shelby is going to be competing at 212 I believe.. and he is 5'6.. which is pretty damn big.. but to support your argument, Palumbo is one of the premier coaches out there.. and he never got his pro card IIRC..


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## jay_steel (May 17, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> Shelby is going to be competing at 212 I believe.. and he is 5'6.. which is pretty damn big.. but to support your argument, Palumbo is one of the premier coaches out there.. and he never got his pro card IIRC..



Yeah shelby is a monster.. that second sentence didnt come out right. It was more less quoting that guy with him saying.," Wait hes smaller we shouldnt read any thing he says, because hes smaller then me." not me saying shelby is smaller because shebly is insane.


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## slinsane (May 17, 2013)

15 Units any insulin is quite a high dose for someone who is not  diabetic.  Insulin is so individualized.  Depending on your sensitivity  15 units can put your blood sugar under 60.  When you start to have the  symptoms of hypo you are already below 60. Sweating, jitters,  nauseated.  Around 30-40 you start to fall asleep and it is difficult to  move.  At this level most people would have to be fed glucose tablets  because they would find it difficult to be coordinated enough to do so  for themselves.  I have seen it.  Diabetic coma kills people every year.  R kicks in  30-60 minutes, peaks during 2-4 hours and lasts 5-8.  Keep this in mind  when administering.  Keep in mind that you should try to use the least amount because you are desensitizing your body to insulin.  Why predispose ourselves to decreased insulin sensitivity.  The more we use the less sensitive our cells will become.


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## theCaptn' (May 17, 2013)

jay_steel said:


> just about 90% of people i spoke with said 10-15 is fine. Just as long as i get my carb intake. This i coming from top level trainers and bodybuilder, as well as fellow forum guys. Some people adviced to start low, but the consensus was that any thing less then 10iu is a waste, that the dangers are overplayed if your responsible with it, which I was. My gym back was packed full of carbs and candy. Only mistake I made was not buying a blood sugar meter before. Which I have now, also had my friends monitoring me during the gym.
> 
> I think SD ran Humalog at 15 his first go and everything went smooth where this was humalin which does not slam you like humalog does.



Im glad youre ok mate.

15iu was a crazy first dose - especially using humalin. No matter if everyone you know says it was fine, every individual has different tolerances.

I started a 4iu and worked my way up in 2iu increments -that way my body had time to adjust. That way I never had any hypo symptoms.

Edit: I know now every fk has already told you that. Keep up the good work jay


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## nsp (May 18, 2013)

So are you you just doing one 15iu dose 3 times a week?


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## jay_steel (May 21, 2013)

yeah just 3 times a week.. only on actual lifting days on my carb days...

Monday= chest tri shoulders high carb
tues= cardio abs calves 90 carbs
wed= back bi legs hi carb
thurs off low carb
friday repeat monday high carb
sat-sun off moderate carbs
monday repeat weds and so on. high carb

Its a modified DC training. I know he hates it when people change it but doing back with my chest shoulders and tris was way to much for me.


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## Standard Donkey (May 21, 2013)

slinsane said:


> 15 Units any insulin is quite a high dose for someone who is not  diabetic.  Insulin is so individualized.  Depending on your sensitivity  15 units can put your blood sugar under 60.  When you start to have the  symptoms of hypo you are already below 60. Sweating, jitters,  nauseated.  Around 30-40 you start to fall asleep and it is difficult to  move.  At this level most people would have to be fed glucose tablets  because they would find it difficult to be coordinated enough to do so  for themselves.  I have seen it.  Diabetic coma kills people every year.  R kicks in  30-60 minutes, peaks during 2-4 hours and lasts 5-8.  Keep this in mind  when administering.  Keep in mind that you should try to use the least amount because you are desensitizing your body to insulin.  Why predispose ourselves to decreased insulin sensitivity.  The more we use the less sensitive our cells will become.



GH makes you less insulin sensitive as well IIRC.. it's not the insulin that makes you a diabetic.. it's the GH.  I remember when my blood sugar dipped very low.. think it was around 35 ( I had eaten 40g of carbs from white rice right before this happened so I slowly came out of it), my face went numb and my jaw dropped and I was drooling everywhere.. not fun.


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## XYZ (May 22, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> GH makes you less insulin sensitive as well IIRC.. it's not the insulin that makes you a diabetic.. it's the GH.  I remember when my blood sugar dipped very low.. think it was around 35 ( I had eaten 40g of carbs from white rice right before this happened so I slowly came out of it), my face went numb and my jaw dropped and I was drooling everywhere.. not fun.



GH makes you more sensitive to insulin, that's why the two are used together so often.


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## Mike Arnold (May 22, 2013)

XYZ said:


> GH makes you more sensitive to insulin, that's why the two are used together so often.



Actually, Standard Donkey is correct...GH reduces inuslin sensitivity...and can do so dramatically at higher dosages....so much so that it can potentially make you diabetic, especially if insulin is abused along with it (Note to Standard Donkey:  Insulin abuse will definitely decrease insulin sensitivity...just like GH). At lower dosages (2-3 IU) GH is not an issue, but when guys get up to using 8+ IU daily, the problems set in. Hell, even 5 IU will adversely affect insulin sensitivity....and the higher you go, the worse it gets.


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## jay_steel (May 22, 2013)

great information here.. Things are going good. Taking this week off really to relax and catch up on some family stuff and get some work done. I think I am actually going to start a cycle up soon. Something light nothing to big if my blood work looks good. I have been off for some time now and feel great. Holding strong at 208 right now and getting noticeably leaner each day. I was thinking tren, but I all ready ran tren, So i decided to go light and just go test and eq for now with a 20mg dbol kicker. Normally do much more in MG but i am trying to lower all my AAS dosage and focus more on diet. I am just excited to try some real blue hearts.


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## Diesel618 (May 22, 2013)

Ive always heard that the magic starts to happen at 15 iu. I know that's not very scientific, but the only person who I know who uses it does 7.5 iu's with breakfast and 7.5 iu's post workout.


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## theCaptn' (May 22, 2013)

Diesel618 said:


> Ive always heard that the magic starts to happen at 15 iu. I know that's not very scientific, but the only person who I know who uses it does 7.5 iu's with breakfast and 7.5 iu's post workout.



That's utter bullshit. You can get results at lower doses


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## XYZ (May 23, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> Actually, Standard Donkey is correct...GH reduces inuslin sensitivity...and can do so dramatically at higher dosages....so much so that it can potentially make you diabetic, especially if insulin is abused along with it (Note to Standard Donkey:  Insulin abuse will definitely decrease insulin sensitivity...just like GH). At lower dosages (2-3 IU) GH is not an issue, but when guys get up to using 8+ IU daily, the problems set in. Hell, even 5 IU will adversely affect insulin sensitivity....and the higher you go, the worse it gets.



Do you have any articles on this?

Anything I have read states the opposite.  

Thanks


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## Mike Arnold (May 24, 2013)

Diesel618 said:


> Ive always heard that the magic starts to happen at 15 iu. I know that's not very scientific, but the only person who I know who uses it does 7.5 iu's with breakfast and 7.5 iu's post workout.



This "MYTH" was started by one of the biggest liars on the Net.  The fact is there is NO dosage at which the "magic" starts to happen.  There is no special mechanism which is triggered at 15 IU that is not in effect at 14 IU...or 13 IU, etc.  GH's effects are dose-dependent, so the more you use, the better it works (to a degree).  You will consistently get better results as the dose rises, but there is no jump in effectiveness once you hit 15 IU.


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## Mike Arnold (May 24, 2013)

XYZ said:


> Do you have any articles on this?
> 
> Anything I have read states the opposite.
> 
> Thanks



You can find a vast amount of information on this subject all over the Net. This is a very well known fact, which has never been disputed. Rather, it has been a highly publicized topic by both the medical establishment and the BB'ing community, with numerous reserach studies and articles being conducted/published for decades. In fact, this has been a hot subject in the BB'ing community lately, as we attempt to discover new methods of minimizing this very real health hazard. About 1.5-2.0 years ago I started advocating the concomittant adminitration Glucophage with both insulin and GH; an effective practice which has been reiterated by one of MD's senior writers in a recent issue of MD. One of the primary reasons we are advised to take time off from drugs like insulin & GH is due to their negative effects on insulin sensitivity. As frequency of use and dosage increase, so to does the probability of developing insulin resistance. This problem is further magnified when using both drugs simultaneously. Through the combined use of Glucophage, other supplements/drugs, and proper cycling, we are able to utilize GH & Insulin at a higher dosage for a longer period of time, while avoiding thise ill effect on our health.

There is a synergistic, as well as a complimentary effect witnessed when these drugs are combined, but at the same time, their ill effect on insulin sensitivity is undeniable.  I believe you may be confusing this synergy with insulin sensitivity, as we frequently hear people say things such as..."Insulin makes the body more sensitize to the effects of GH", etc.  However, when these comments are made, they are not referring to insulin sensitivity itself.  Rather they're in reference to the aforementioned synergy.


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## XYZ (May 28, 2013)

After reading more I think I am/was getting confused with the terms of sensitivity and resistance and how they were being used in the context of the text that was being read at the time.

Good post.


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## Mike Arnold (May 28, 2013)

XYZ said:


> After reading more I think I am/was getting confused with the terms of sensitivity and resistance and how they were being used in the context of the text that was being read at the time.
> 
> Good post.



That's understandable.  Once you look into it, you can see the difference, but it can be confusing at first.


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## Bchrysl (Jun 20, 2013)

jay_steel said:


> Also for any one that is worried about slin, its nothing as long as you have food by you. I probably would never advice 15iu period like I did, but if you do it then just make sure you have a meter on you. *My advice for 1st time slin users is pin it and sit on the couch and play some video games. Get use to the feeling.* _Check your BS every 20 mins or so_. Then jump into your protocol and train. I did not pin on friday because i knew i wouldnt be around food and good thing i didnt because i probably would have gone hypo in the middle of dicks sporting goods. Even though they do have some carb supplements there. That would not have been good. Plan your day around the slin if your on humalin. This is the only thing I dont like. If my wife wants to go for a walk and i know i need to feed in 30 mins i have to tell her no.



great thread - makes me want to run some pre workout insulin instead of post workout cept for it would neutralize (reduce in actuality) the effect of the mod grf/ghrp combo after.

*bold *= solid advice
_italicized_ = most people will not do, which is why I will write below

*if its ur first time: please buy glucose tabs at CVS or some other store in case you go hypo*, they are cheap and I realize that most people new to this won't be checking BS.


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## jay_steel (Jun 20, 2013)

yeah i felt GREAT gains from it but had to stop due to it being summer and I am really active in the summer so with the Humalin being active for longer then I want it was hard to time my meals around it if I wanted to do things in the evening. I am going to get some humalog and give that a go, there was to many times where my wife wanted to see an evening movie and all i can think about was at this time i need to eat.


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## Bchrysl (Jun 20, 2013)

jay_steel said:


> yeah i felt GREAT gains from it but had to stop due to it being summer and I am really active in the summer so with the Humalin being active for longer then I want it was hard to time my meals around it if I wanted to do things in the evening. I am going to get some humalog and give that a go, there was to many times where my wife wanted to see an evening movie and all i can think about was at this time i need to eat.



im curious to hear of the differences you experience on running humalog vs humulin-r - lmk in this thread? only reason i went humulin-r is easy availability, although #@$@#$ pharmacists usually wont sell it to me even tho its legal. makes it more of a pain than ordering online.


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## jay_steel (Jun 20, 2013)

wall mart bro.. they never ask.. or my wallgreens the guy got me huge discounts and asked me if its for personal use lol or medical when i was buying all the BS testing stuff and I told him personal use and he was all cool bro let me hook you up and whipped out like 10 coupons.


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## Bchrysl (Jun 21, 2013)

jay_steel said:


> wall mart bro.. they never ask.. or my wallgreens the guy got me huge discounts and asked me if its for personal use lol or medical when i was buying all the BS testing stuff and I told him personal use and he was all cool bro let me hook you up and whipped out like 10 coupons.



brother,

repped wal mart it is. CVS fucking hates me - I have to go on average to 3 different locations to get a bottle of legal insulin...wal mart will be my new insulin depot of choice hell yea


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## jay_steel (Jun 21, 2013)

yeah i tell the girl there straight up i use it to get big.


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## jay_steel (Aug 30, 2013)

well a lil update jumped back on slin.. 15iu on training days mttf... Upped my HGH and my cycle is

1400 test
600npp
12.5 aromasin
2000 iu hcg every week
75 iu hmg every week
6iu hgh m-f
15iu slin

I have gone from a plateau of 207-210 to 216 and still gaining daily. My goal was to hit 220 by November but i think I may surpass that now. Diet is shovelling clean food i am not counting macros just eating clean food as much as a I can. Its over what i originally planned, but its clean and im not getting fat. Still around 10-12% vains in my lower abs still.


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## OldSchoolLifter (Aug 30, 2013)

I guess all that talk of Slin got you going again? Lol 

Same here, That thread made me want to start again. 


Keep us posted brother.


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## theCaptn' (Aug 31, 2013)

^^^^ +1


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