# Guns vs. Government - the discussion of violence in the U.S. and abroad



## Killermonkey (Aug 30, 2011)

This is picked up from the thread gun guys in open chat that was overridden from politics of which I will now discuss.

My comment- 

Mexico is the least of my worries, among other places. Let the animals wipe each other out, not my problem. 

However the US is my problem and the way I see it the gun laws are fine according to the states we live in. There is a reason that I don't live in states like NY, NJ and wherever the gun laws are in place to give the common criminal the advantage of the law abiding citizen.

Where I live now is handled simply. You come into my home unlawfully, you getting a comfy welcome from my 5.56- one head, two in the chest! No questions asked.

To date, when guns are bought from gun shows they are regulated by background checks. In addition, the problem with gun shows is that common criminals can buy accessories and tactical gear like vests, plates, ammo, and whatever else. But then again, you could get most of this stuff from eBay anyways so it is not much of a worry.

Have at it!


----------



## Killermonkey (Aug 30, 2011)

Lam, I know you are up for this post.


----------



## JCBourne (Aug 30, 2011)

Take a look at states (or cities) that allow CCW and states that don't. Last time I checked (and was told in class) was that the crime rate was much higher in states that made it impossible to have a CCW or to even own a gun. Think about it, if your in a state where anyone without a record and whos sane can get a weapons permit, your going to think twice before doing something stupid. That's just one example.


----------



## LAM (Aug 30, 2011)

the main problem is simply that the US is a violent country AND there is easy access to firearms this is just not a good combination.  the country was founded on violence, we are always warring with somebody on the globe, tv shows, video games, etc.  many people can draw the distinction between reality and fantasy many can not.  then add in the ever increasing population of people in the US with mental health problems that still legally have the right to purchase firearms.

I'm all for 1st Amend rights but in reality they are not really applicable in the time we live in.  besides various acts of terrorism (which can never be stopped) there hasn't been a true enemy combatant on US soil since the British landed in the late 1700's.

according to the DOJ the majority of violent crime at 80-90% happens away from the home so having arms at home does very little to prevent this.  having civilians armed in public isn't a good idea either to combat the threat outside of the home, this causes an array of other problems when you are talking about civilians whom are not weapons experts discharging firearms in public.

there are tons of studies that show the obvious connection with poverty and increased street crime/violent crimes and/or murders with firearms.

* on a personal note I avoid the places and people that seem to be associated with gun crimes in public as best i can.  I have a CCW but do not carry in public I am not that paranoid but I am always armed.

anyone that breaks into my house is leaving in a body bag...


----------



## Killermonkey (Aug 30, 2011)

Lam, spot on for the most part but you are so wrong when you say the enemy is not on our soil. The taliban are recruiting people everyday through the Internet for acts of terror in America. Just a disagreement


----------



## Killermonkey (Aug 30, 2011)

I also it would be a good thing to be able to stand as one if the shit ever hits the fan in the US. Guns are more of a commodity to me.


----------



## LAM (Aug 30, 2011)

Killermonkey said:


> Lam, spot on for the most part but you are so wrong when you say the enemy is not on our soil. The taliban are recruiting people everyday through the Internet for acts of terror in America. Just a disagreement



granted that many of us are displeased with the government in many ways I think the people that fall into this category are already severely mentally disturbed.  random acts of terrorism against civilians especially are acts of desperation, they will never and have never solved any problems.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 30, 2011)

LAM said:


> I'm all for 1st Amend rights but in reality they are not really applicable in the time we live in.  besides various acts of terrorism (which can never be stopped) there hasn't been a true enemy combatant on US soil since the British landed in the late 1700's. *Pearl Harbor*
> 
> this causes an array of other problems when you are talking about civilians whom are not weapons experts discharging firearms in public.
> *anyone want to show examples of where CCW holders are using their guns inappropriately and causing more harm than good? Where are the problems CCW holders are causing? anyone? anyone? *


----------



## BillHicksFan (Aug 30, 2011)

YouTube Video












I realise that when semi-automatics were banned here it was only the law abiding citizens who handed them in but it still makes sense on a logical basis as well as in the statistics.


----------



## BillHicksFan (Aug 30, 2011)

I must add that hand guns have always been tightly regulated. So tight that very, very few people have them in comparison to the population.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 30, 2011)

it doesn't make sense at all. none at all. what works in england doesn't work in the US.


----------



## BillHicksFan (Aug 30, 2011)

bio-chem said:


> it doesn't make sense at all. none at all. what works in england doesn't work in the US.




What makes you so certain about that?


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 30, 2011)

LAM said:


> this causes an array of other problems when you are talking about civilians whom are not weapons experts discharging firearms in public.



I'm sorry, but I can't let this fallacy go without a proper response.

Civilians who are not weapons experts? By whose standards? On average I would place an average CCW holders skills above the average police officers. there are countless stories of police officers with accidental discharges. how many instances of improper/illegal firearm use do we have for CCW holders? I want to see statistics. LAM you are great about posting stats. lets see em. 

I want everyone to know i'm not bashing police here. many of the friends I train with at my MMA gym are cops. I love to go shooting with these guys. I know plenty of CCW holders who are much more proficient with firearms than the average police officer. Many police officers shoot the minimum amount necessary to qualify with their carry weapons. CCW holders are well known for  being safe with their weapons. The idea/thought/or insinuation that CCW holders are in some way dangerous, or they are just looking for a reason to pull out there weapon is completely false, and irresponsible to suggest.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 30, 2011)

BillHicksFan said:


> What makes you so certain about that?



you said so yourself. Criminals don't hand in their weapons. therefor it doesn't make any sense by any stretch that banning handguns here in the US would reduce crime. State by state, the more armed the law abiding civilian populace is the lower the crime rate. that is the truth of America.


----------



## LAM (Aug 30, 2011)

bio-chem said:


> I'm sorry, but I can't let this fallacy go without a proper response.
> 
> Civilians who are not weapons experts? By whose standards? On average I would place an average CCW holders skills above the average police officers. there are countless stories of police officers with accidental discharges. how many instances of improper/illegal firearm use do we have for CCW holders? I want to see statistics. LAM you are great about posting stats. lets see em.
> 
> I want everyone to know i'm not bashing police here. many of the friends I train with at my MMA gym are cops. I love to go shooting with these guys. I know plenty of CCW holders who are much more proficient with firearms than the average police officer. Many police officers shoot the minimum amount necessary to qualify with their carry weapons. CCW holders are well known for  being safe with their weapons. The idea/thought/or insinuation that CCW holders are in some way dangerous, or they are just looking for a reason to pull out there weapon is completely false, and irresponsible to suggest.



have you ever been in combat?

because I have seen first hand people trained for combat choke.  the average person is not trained mentally for this so how could armed masses of "regular" people not trained for combat possibly help?

as a competent martial artist I have easily disarmed every single person I know that is not LE that carry's in public.  because of this most of them do not carry anymore.   conversely I have also seen skilled martial artits in the dojo get their asses handed to them on the street by the untrained individual.

once thing is for sure is that more violence doesn't stop violence.  the best way is to prevent it from occurring from occurring in the first place.

violence on Columbia has been reduced by 70% in the past decades as they are making great progress in reducing poverty.


----------



## LAM (Aug 30, 2011)

Killermonkey said:


> Guns are more of a commodity to me.



I'm pretty much the same.  growing up in rural PA hunting was a regular part of life there so I grew up with guns. my love for the rifle is the challenge of being able to hit that target consistently form greater distances, with wind, etc.  just another skill to master.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 30, 2011)

LAM said:


> have you ever been in combat?
> 
> because I have seen first hand people trained for combat choke.  the average person is not trained mentally for this so how could armed masses of "regular" people not trained for combat possibly help?
> 
> ...



again. show me where CCW holders have caused problems? show me an instance? 

CCW holders are not "regular" people.

I once had a "competent martial artist" tell me he could disarm me. with both dummy knives and handguns he lost 10/10 He pretty much ended up looking like Jim Carrey in that SNL skit. most criminals are not "competent marital artists" trained to disarm

In the two instances I was forced to use my MMA training outside of the gym it saved my ass both times against unskilled adversaries that were much larger than me. both times I walked away unscathed and the guys who attacked me walked away.

I'll take a CCW holder and a guy who trains in MMA every single time in an  unexpected situation with a criminal attempting to commit a crime.


----------



## LAM (Aug 30, 2011)

bio-chem said:


> again. show me where CCW holders have caused problems? show me an instance?
> 
> CCW holders are not "regular" people.
> 
> ...



first where did I ever say the problem was with CCW holders.  I  said armed citizens armed in public, plenty of people carry w/o a CCW.

Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries 
Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries


----------



## Killermonkey (Aug 31, 2011)

Lam, I disagree with with you on another thing here. You said violence doesn't stop violence. If I see someone who deserves to be put down because of an analysis that he/she might be harming innocent civilians then violence would stop violence- by comparison, that thing in Oslo. If someone was just armed they could have potentially saved so many innocent lives.

Maybe I am taking you post's context wrong, I don't know for sure. But in an earlier post you said " whoever breaks in my house leaves in a body bag" , if that's true that is contraditing on e of you latest posts.


----------



## Killermonkey (Aug 31, 2011)

But I will say that even trained specialists can choke in combat. The military and law enforcement reduce their standards when trying to fill numbers for new hires. Special forces was like that when I went though it and the cadre even told us that. If they can't qualify the needed number candidates, then make the course easier. Sad but true


----------



## LAM (Aug 31, 2011)

Killermonkey said:


> Lam, I disagree with with you on another thing here. You said violence doesn't stop violence. If I see someone who deserves to be put down because of an analysis that he/she might be harming innocent civilians then violence would stop violence- by comparison, that thing in Oslo. If someone was just armed they could have potentially saved so many innocent lives.
> 
> Maybe I am taking you post's context wrong, I don't know for sure. But in an earlier post you said " whoever breaks in my house leaves in a body bag" , if that's true that is contraditing on e of you latest posts.



you are stopping that particular person from committing future violence but you are not reducing the chances of others in the future from committing it.


----------



## Killermonkey (Aug 31, 2011)

I see what you are saying now


----------



## LAM (Aug 31, 2011)

a perfect example of desperation in modern day are the pirates off the cost of Somalia.  those men where happy fisherman but that country has no navy to enforce coastal boundaries, the japanese fishing trawlers came and wiped out the fish.  now since they have lost their means of supporting the family they turned to piracy.

remember the Pareto principle holds true in most things so 80% of the crime is committed by 20% of the individuals.  there are generally 2 types of criminals: the career criminal (the 20%ter) and the one that has turned to a lone act of crime in desperation.  one can be reduced with a more healthy society the other can not.


----------



## Chubby (Aug 31, 2011)

If you give loaded gun to peole like Gandhi, he will never use it. If you hide loaded gun from Hitler, he will find it and use it. I know both of these people are dead, but you know what I mean. Just because of few assholes, everyone should not be punished.


----------



## Killermonkey (Aug 31, 2011)

Like chubbs said, there are bad apples everywhere. It is just something we have to deal with. Just like motor vehicles, people are destined to get behind the and commit manslaughter but you can't take away the rights to drive a vehicle right?

Most people know how to handle weapons just as most people know how to handle motor vehicles.


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Aug 31, 2011)

I think plenty of shootings that have occured by civilians could have been avoided if they had not had access to a gun.

Sometimes people get so angry that they lose their mind for a bit.

And in these cases, if they had not had access to a gun, maybe they would have had a chance to cool down and not commited a murder.


----------



## Killermonkey (Aug 31, 2011)

myCATpowerlifts said:


> I think plenty of shootings that have occured by civilians could have been avoided if they had not had access to a gun.
> 
> Sometimes people get so angry that they lose their mind for a bit.
> 
> And in these cases, if they had not had access to a gun, maybe they would have had a chance to cool down and not commited a murder.



I can't argue with that. All I know is that I am sane and I love my guns and the laws are fine to me.


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Aug 31, 2011)

I'm considering getting a handgun soon...what would you recommend for a first timer?
I have shot .22's, 9mm, revolvers...
thought they were all fun.
owned a 20 gauge shotgun when i was younger 

But that's the extent of my experience with real guns.

I want one thats medium-small and light weight but also fun to shoot (practice targets).


----------



## LAM (Aug 31, 2011)

depends if it's going to be just for target or possible future use for concealed carry or home defense.  nothing smaller than a .380 for personal protection IMO.  and definetly nothing like a .50 dessert eagle those things are garbage


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Aug 31, 2011)

LAM said:


> depends if it's going to be just for target or possible future use for concealed carry or home defense.  nothing smaller than a .380 for personal protection IMO.  and definetly nothing like a .50 dessert eagle those things are garbage



Ultimately, it will be for personal protection...but in the meanwhile, for fun.


Also, the bill hicks clip was right on.


----------



## LAM (Aug 31, 2011)

in that case either a .40 or .45.  don't need the high capacity of a 9mm when you have increased stopping power of the higher calibers

if you are also a fan of knives I suggest the CKRT Hissatsu folder.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 31, 2011)

myCATpowerlifts said:


> I think plenty of shootings that have occured by civilians could have been avoided if they had not had access to a gun.
> 
> Sometimes people get so angry that they lose their mind for a bit.
> 
> And in these cases, if they had not had access to a gun, maybe they would have had a chance to cool down and not commited a murder.



or more likely they would have used a knife, club, or some other implement. It's true the majority of crimes are crimes of passion. heat of the moment type stuff. but removing one type of weapon doesn't mean that they will not reach for another


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 31, 2011)

LAM said:


> first where did I ever say the problem was with CCW holders.  I  said armed citizens armed in public, plenty of people carry w/o a CCW.
> 
> Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries
> Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries



that link doesn't speak at all to the topic at hand. show me where armed citizens in public are causing problems? I'm not talking about gangbangers, and drug dealers here. I'm talking about everyday joes carrying guns in public that are making bad situations worse because they were armed.


----------



## LAM (Aug 31, 2011)

bio-chem said:


> that link doesn't speak at all to the topic at hand. show me where armed citizens in public are causing problems? I'm not talking about gangbangers, and drug dealers here. I'm talking about everyday joes carrying guns in public that are making bad situations worse because they were armed.



I didn't say there was a problem but there would be if this was allowed on a masses scale.  common sense tells us this would not be an improvement, this is what LE is for to react to crimes not civilian vigilante's on the lookout to shoot somebody.  I guess it would be better to allow another problem to be created so it can be solved?


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 31, 2011)

LAM said:


> I didn't say there was a problem but there would be if this was allowed on a masses scale.  common sense tells us this would not be an improvement, this is what LE is for to react to crimes not civilian vigilante's on the lookout to shoot somebody.  I guess it would be better to allow another problem to be created so it can be solved?



allowed on a mass scale? there are currently 700k CCW holders in the state of Florida alone. is that enough of a mass scale trial run for you?

Bahahhahahhahah. scare tactics aren't going to work in this argument. armed civilians aren't "vigilante's on the lookout to shoot somebody" we have enough armed law abiding civilians to know that this is a completely false stereotype.  suggesting it shows an attempt at a red herring because of a lack of understanding of the issue. armed civilians aren't creating a problem as shown by the fact that the masses of our armed law abiding civilians are walking around daily without looking for "somebody to shoot" I've yet to see you show an example of an armed civilian creating a problem. care to try again?

you are right LE reacts to crimes. being armed during an encounter can prevent one. I for one want the option of protecting myself and my family in the time it takes LE to show up.


----------



## bio-chem (Aug 31, 2011)

vermont, alaska, arizona, and wyoming allow unrestricted concealed carry to their citizens. No permit is required for their citizens to legally carry concealed in these states. i don't seem to read about armed vigilante's in these states going around looking for people to shoot. I wonder why?


----------



## LAM (Oct 2, 2011)

Law Enforcement and Private Citizens Killed by Concealed Handgun Permit Holders

http://www.vpc.org/studies/ccw2009.pdf


----------



## bio-chem (Oct 9, 2011)

LAM said:


> Law Enforcement and Private Citizens Killed by Concealed Handgun Permit Holders
> 
> http://www.vpc.org/studies/ccw2009.pdf



Those seem to be very low numbers to me. those statistics back up the safety of concealed carry to me


----------



## irish_2003 (Oct 9, 2011)

gun laws have NOTHING to do with limiting gun crime and EVERYTHING to do with no political uprising by the people.....that's the entire reason for the 2nd amendment when it was written...was to protect the people from the government (an injuns)


----------



## LAM (Oct 10, 2011)

bio-chem said:


> Those seem to be very low numbers to me. those statistics back up the safety of concealed carry to me



National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: Preliminary 2011 Fatality Statistics

http://www.bradycenter.org/xshare/pdf/facts/ccw-crimes-misdeeds.pdf

National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: Causes of Law Enforcement Deaths

National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: Preliminary 2011 Fatality Statistics

I found a much easier solution than carrying even though I have a CCW, I just don't go to shitty places or areas that are high in crime.

In a country that has double the rate of bi-polar disorders (at 4.4% of the pop) of any other country (of which only 50% are under treatment) and a shrinking economy that is going down the crapper and a totally fucked up political system.  I couldn't think of a much worst idea than getting more firearms out on the streets.


----------



## troubador (Oct 10, 2011)

Sometimes I wonder if the Brady campaign does their cause more harm than good. I mean you're really going to waste time compiling a list of snippets about CCW holders involved in crimes? Only people on board with the agenda won't realize how unimportant that is. Here are some actual statistics (not a list of scary stories).

Concealed Weapon Summary Report - Division of Licensing, FDACS
Way less than 1% of CCW holders in Florida committed a crime involving a gun.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2009.pdf

Texas DPS - CHL Conviction Rates Reports

0% Manslaughter and .2% of murders that year in TX.


----------



## LAM (Oct 10, 2011)

did you even look at the links because only 1 is from brady the rest are from the national law enforcement memorial fund.

you honest believe that arming more people in a large violent population with a growing mental health problem is going to make things "better"?  seriously...


----------



## Zaphod (Oct 10, 2011)

Guns aren't the problem.  Neither is access to those guns.  People are the problem.  Until you legislate people away there will always be people murdering other people.  Whether it be with guns or cricket bats or mouse cords.  Also criminals will always be able to get guns.  That's something people can't quite seem to grasp.  

When I go on my own murderous rampage I'm going to kill more than twenty people with a spatula.  Or better yet, a toaster oven.  See if I can't get a group to go after banning toaster ovens.  

When you are seconds away from a life or death situation the cops are always just minutes away.


----------



## troubador (Oct 10, 2011)

LAM said:


> did you even look at the links because only 1 is from brady the rest are from the national law enforcement memorial fund.



Yes, none of them address CCW holders except for the Brady one which neglects (of course) to mention how those numbers stack up against the total population. Everyone knows LE die from shootings. 



> you honest believe that arming more people in a large violent population with a growing mental health problem is going to make things "better"? seriously...



I don't know why we are even having the debate. There are much more dangerous things that should be banned way before guns are up for consideration. You work on getting 'common sense pool legislation' enacted then we'll talk about guns. 

"In a given year, there is one drowning of a child for every 11,000 residential pools in the United States. (In a country with 6 million pools, this means that roughly 550 children under the age of ten drown each year.) Meanwhile, there is 1 child killed by a gun for every 1 million-plus guns. (In a country with an estimated 200 million guns, this means that roughly 175 children under ten die each year from guns.) The likelihood of death by pool (1 in 11,000) versus death by gun (1 in 1 million-plus) isn???t even close:"

Chapter 5 « Freakonomics and SuperFreakonomics


----------



## DOMS (Oct 10, 2011)

Anyone that thinks that they Americans should be deprived of their guns while sharing a nearly 2000 mile long border with Mexico--especially since it's a sieve--is a moron.

End of fucking story.


----------



## ALBOB (Oct 10, 2011)

myCATpowerlifts said:


> I'm considering getting a handgun soon...what would you recommend for a first timer?
> I have shot .22's, 9mm, revolvers...
> thought they were all fun.
> owned a 20 gauge shotgun when i was younger
> ...



4" .357 Magnum revolver.  I'm partial to Rugers myself but Smith & Wesson makes some fine guns also.  Ultimate in reliability.  Easily concealed.  Very easy to learn to shoot.

Practice and/or plink with mild .38 Special loads and carry full power magnums when it's for real.


----------



## robbiek426 (Oct 10, 2011)

Constitutional rights vs. Your opinion. 

Constitution wins. Most guns that are used to commit crimes are NOT registered and are usually owned by felons who have them illegally to begin with. 

Taking guns and the right to carry guns away from decent people is a bad idea. You cannot obtain a CCW if you have a felony on your record. So why is it bad to let people who are law abiding citizens purchase and carry firearms? 

Really give me a good point with an unbiased report and I may change my position.


----------



## ALBOB (Oct 10, 2011)

robbiek426 said:


> Really *give me a good point with an unbiased report *and I may change my position.



Good luck finding THAT from any anti-gunners.


----------



## bio-chem (Oct 10, 2011)

LAM said:


> did you even look at the links because only 1 is from brady the rest are from the national law enforcement memorial fund.
> 
> you honest believe that arming more people in a large violent population with a growing mental health problem is going to make things "better"?  seriously...



yes. yes i do


----------



## bio-chem (Oct 10, 2011)

DOMS said:


> Anyone that thinks that they Americans should be deprived of their guns while sharing a nearly 2000 mile long border with Mexico--especially since it's a sieve--is a moron.
> 
> End of fucking story.



this


----------



## dogsoldier (Oct 10, 2011)

GymRat4Life said:


> Take a look at states (or cities) that allow CCW and states that don't. Last time I checked (and was told in class) was that the crime rate was much higher in states that made it impossible to have a CCW or to even own a gun. Think about it, if your in a state where anyone without a record and whos sane can get a weapons permit, your going to think twice before doing something stupid. That's just one example.



I agree with your premise, but the high crime stuff is bullshit.  Gun control is racism, plain and simple. The states that do not have a CCW or personal ownership have high populations of blacks and other minorities. The white liberal power structure can't have all those minorities running around with guns.


----------



## robbiek426 (Oct 10, 2011)

dogsoldier said:


> I agree with your premise, but the high crime stuff is bullshit. Gun control is racism, plain and simple. The states that do not have a CCW or personal ownership have high populations of blacks and other minorities. The white liberal power structure can't have all those minorities running around with guns.


 
I agree with your stance on gun control but it is not racism.

Liberals dont want anyone to have guns. The reason personal ownership laws are higher in states with minority population??????? Because over 70% of minorities vote for democrats at the state and national level.


----------



## Zaphod (Oct 11, 2011)

troubador said:


> Yes, none of them address CCW holders except for the Brady one which neglects (of course) to mention how those numbers stack up against the total population. Everyone knows LE die from shootings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But everybody likes to go swimming.  So pools can't be bad much less hazardous.  

I check in with my guns every day and so far none of them have gone out and killed someone while I've been at work.


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Oct 11, 2011)

Zaphod said:


> I check in with my guns every day and so far none of them have gone out and killed someone while I've been at work.


----------



## troubador (Oct 11, 2011)

Zaphod said:


> But everybody likes to go swimming.  So pools can't be bad much less hazardous.



And they're not black and scary; which is why things like the 'Assault Weapons Ban' get passed when really they're nothing more than a Scary Weapons Ban. 




> Liberals dont want anyone to have guns.



The 'liberal' leaders don't want the herd to have guns. Just ask Rosie O'Donnell. 






YouTube Video


----------



## troubador (Oct 11, 2011)

Actually, in all seriousness I believe people are more afraid of guns than say cars, pools or choking because of the herd mentality. They can accept that accidents happen but they are terrified of the idea that someone out there has the power(over them) to take their life.   The realization that they are much more likely to drown or something is outweighed by the fear of power inequality.


----------



## Killermonkey (Oct 11, 2011)

Lam, take your liberal commi gun hating ass out of my fucking thread. This is for gun lovers only!


----------



## dogsoldier (Oct 11, 2011)

robbiek426 said:


> I agree with your stance on gun control but it is not racism.
> 
> Liberals dont want anyone to have guns. The reason personal ownership laws are higher in states with minority population??????? Because over 70% of minorities vote for democrats at the state and national level.




If you read about the history of gun control in America you will change you opinion. The roots of gun control are deeply founded in racism. Remember, racism does not necessarily mean against one of another color. The elites do not want the peasants armed, plain and simple.

Minorities vote for the left because they have had the "victim" mentality beat into them forever.  The nanny state of the democrats is the highest form of racism.  "You are too stupid to think for yourself so here is some goodies to vote for us".


----------



## Zaphod (Oct 11, 2011)

I've got Remington Golden Sabres in my Ruger 9mm.  All sixteen are still there, so my gun hasn't killed anyone today.


----------



## DOMS (Oct 11, 2011)

dogsoldier said:


> Remember, racism does not necessarily mean against one of another color. The elites do not want the peasants armed, plain and simple.



That's classism, not racism.


----------



## dogsoldier (Oct 11, 2011)

DOMS said:


> That's classism, not racism.




semantics.


----------



## DOMS (Oct 11, 2011)

dogsoldier said:


> semantics.



Sex...bestiality...semantics...


----------



## IronAddict (Oct 11, 2011)

All just a joke!

How many of you here that wanna to carry weapons were in the service? 

Mutha phuqas!

I'll take that weapon and shove it up your ass and pull the trigger, and you'd like it, cause having a dude shoot you up the ass happens nightly.


----------



## robbiek426 (Oct 11, 2011)

dogsoldier said:


> If you read about the history of gun control in America you will change you opinion. The roots of gun control are deeply founded in racism. Remember, racism does not necessarily mean against one of another color. The elites do not want the peasants armed, plain and simple.
> 
> Minorities vote for the left because they have had the "victim" mentality beat into them forever. The nanny state of the democrats is the highest form of racism. "You are too stupid to think for yourself so here is some goodies to vote for us".


 
I agree with you there. That is prejudice against a social status though. Its not race specific. They do not want the poor or middle class to have a voice. They think because they are wealthy they are smarter than us and have the right to decide for us. Well we have TWO voices. When they stop listening to the one that talks they will have to listen to the one that booms.


----------



## ZECH (Oct 11, 2011)

LAM said:


> I'm all for 1st Amend rights but in reality they are not really applicable in the time we live in.
> 
> having civilians armed in public isn't a good idea either to combat the threat outside of the home, this causes an array of other problems when you are talking about civilians whom are not weapons experts discharging firearms in public.



You mean 2nd admendment don't you?
And the argument about armed civilians causing more harm than good has been proven not to be true. There is a very low percentage of accidents by ccw carriers. Most often, they never even have to fire a gun.


----------



## ZECH (Oct 11, 2011)

LAM said:


> Law Enforcement and Private Citizens Killed by Concealed Handgun Permit Holders
> 
> http://www.vpc.org/studies/ccw2009.pdf



With the probable number of ccw in the whole united states, that probably equates to about .000001%. Yep very big deal.
I'm using a 50 million ccw%. Even if it isn't that high, you can see the number percentage wise in negligible.


----------



## Zaphod (Oct 11, 2011)

ZECH said:


> You mean 2nd admendment don't you?
> And the argument about armed civilians causing more harm than good has been proven not to be true. There is a very low percentage of accidents by ccw carriers. Most often, they never even have to fire a gun.



There are no numbers at all that would even accurately show how many crimes have been stopped by ccw holders.  The generally don't go to the police and say "Hey, I stopped someone from carjacking me.  You might want to write this down..."  

Since the country hasn't turned into one giant Deadwood gun battle we can only assume ccw holders at minimum are not making things worse.  If anything they are making things better and not by being vigilantes, just by being ordinary armed citizens that occasionally happen to be in the right place at the right time.  The handful of deaths caused by ccw holders only reinforces this.  Other demographics cause much more death by far.


----------



## texdb (Oct 11, 2011)

I'll take this to the next level.  I believe machine gun ownership should be legal with a class 3 stamp.  I know that they are legal for personal ownership now, but they have to be registered before '86.  Which makes them all high dollar collectors pieces now.  ex. M16 = about $16,000.  Reagan passed this in '86 for no reason at all.

 *Crime with Legally Owned Machine Guns*  
 In 1995 there were over 240,000 machine guns registered with the ATF. (Zawitz, Marianne,Bureau of Justice Statistics, _Guns Used in Crime_ [PDF].)   About half are owned by civilians and the other half by police departments and other governmental agencies (Gary Kleck, _Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control_, Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997.) 
 Since 1934, there appear to have been at least two homicides committed  with legally owned automatic weapons.  One was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer (as opposed to a  civilian).  On September 15th, 1988, a 13-year veteran of the Dayton,  Ohio police department, Patrolman Roger Waller, then 32, used his fully automatic MAC-11 .380 caliber submachine gun to kill a  police informant, 52-year-old Lawrence Hileman.  Patrolman Waller   pleaded guilty in 1990, and he and an accomplice were sentenced to 18  years in prison.  The 1986 'ban' on sales of new machine guns does  not apply to purchases by law enforcement or government agencies. 
---
 The other homicide, possibly involving a legally owned machine gun, occurred on September 14, 1992, also in Ohio (source).  
 In _Targeting Guns_, Kleck cites the director of ATF testifying  before Congress that he knew of less than ten crimes that were committed  with legally owned machine guns (no time period was specified). Kleck  says these crimes could have been nothing more than violations of gun  regulations such as failure to notify ATF after moving a registered gun  between states. 

That's one "possible" civilian murder in about 80yrs.  I see no reason that as a law abiding citizen I shouldn't be able to buy a new one for the $1800 it's probably worth.  Hell, the ATF let me buy two new silencers.


----------



## robbiek426 (Oct 11, 2011)

I have no problem with letting individuals do whatever the fuck they want. I dont think we need AT-4's in the civilian population but automatic weapons dont bother me. Plus it will be better to have machine guns when the world turns to zombies. Just saying.


----------



## M4A3 (Oct 12, 2011)

BillHicksFan said:


> What makes you so certain about that?



The fact that the UK ban gun is retarded.

Criminals will still get guns. You are just disarming law abiding citizens who will actually follow the law.

And if criminal don't have easy access to guns, then they'll just use knives.

UK knife crime. LOL!!!!

Victims of Knife Crime - Tragic Stories of Knife Crime Victims UK


----------



## M4A3 (Oct 12, 2011)

LAM said:


> in that case either a .40 or .45.  don't need the high capacity of a 9mm when you have increased stopping power of the higher calibers
> 
> if you are also a fan of knives I suggest the CKRT Hissatsu folder.



It's not about "stopping power". It's about shot placement. Most people suck at shooting cardboard. Under the stress of a real life death force encounter, they are going to shoot even worse. They need all the capacity they can get in a handgun.


----------



## Zaphod (Oct 12, 2011)

robbiek426 said:


> I have no problem with letting individuals do whatever the fuck they want. I dont think we need AT-4's in the civilian population but automatic weapons dont bother me. Plus it will be better to have machine guns when the world turns to zombies. Just saying.



I may not NEED a fully automatic weapon but if I want one I should be able to go out and buy one without getting special permission from anyone.  Aside from generating more money for the government to waste on utter bullshit it makes purchase and ownership something the government can take away.  It ceases to be a right.


----------



## Killermonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Not everybody has that luxury, did you ever consider that? VA hospitals are always in the worst areas possible so the government can save money on building on cheap land. Examples, downtown Phoenix, east orange nj, bonham tx etc. people need health care more than others.

Last year, I drew down on a bum for charging at me with a toaster oven in his hand like he was going to hit me with it. lucky for him, he backed up and walked away calling me names and making a spectacle of himself.






LAM said:


> National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: Preliminary 2011 Fatality Statistics
> 
> http://www.bradycenter.org/xshare/pdf/facts/ccw-crimes-misdeeds.pdf
> 
> ...


----------



## Killermonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

LAM said:


> did you even look at the links because only 1 is from brady the rest are from the national law enforcement memorial fund.
> 
> you honest believe that arming more people in a large violent population with a growing mental health problem is going to make things "better"?  seriously...



Hell fucking yes I do


----------



## Killermonkey (Oct 12, 2011)




----------



## KelJu (Oct 12, 2011)

I rural Alabama, guns per capita are probably the highest then anywhere in the world. I came into this world already owning a nice collection of guns handed down by my grandfather. I was shooting a 410 gauge by the time I was 5. I was shooting a 20 gauge by the time I was 6 and was shooting everything but my dads .30-06 by the time I was 10. I didn't even hunt, I just enjoyed shooting. 

To say guns were ingrained into our culture is an understatement. But, we also had the fewest gun fatalities per capita. We had crazy rebel flag wearing south will rise again lunatics running around armed to the tit, yet gun violence was almost unheard of.

I can't help but to believe that gun violence is more related to culture than the availability of guns.


----------



## irish_2003 (Oct 12, 2011)

KelJu said:


> I rural Alabama, guns per capita are probably the highest then anywhere in the world. I came into this world already owning a nice collection of guns handed down by my grandfather. I was shooting a 410 gauge by the time I was 5. I was shooting a 20 gauge by the time I was 6 and was shooting everything but my dads .30-06 by the time I was 10. I didn't even hunt, I just enjoyed shooting.
> 
> To say guns were ingrained into our culture is an understatement. But, we also had the fewest gun fatalities per capita. We had crazy rebel flag wearing south will rise again lunatics running around armed to the tit, yet gun violence was almost unheard of.
> 
> *I can't help but to believe that gun violence is more related to culture than the availability of guns*.



agreed......i blame it on rap music


----------



## ZECH (Oct 12, 2011)

We shot our bows at school and had our shotguns in the truck. Try that in school today.


----------



## dogsoldier (Oct 13, 2011)

ZECH said:


> We shot our bows at school and had our shotguns in the truck. Try that in school today.



Hell, we had 22 rifle rifle marksmanship as part of our PE when I was a kid.

My mother bought me my first rifle when I was 10. It was a single shot 22 short.  She bought it from Woolworth's.

And as a kid, we would grab our 22's hop on our bikes head down to the lake front and shoot rats.  When the cops showed up they usually joined in or gave us pointers.

And this was all in NY State, Buffalo to be exact.

Things have changed.


----------



## Killermonkey (Oct 13, 2011)

Fuck lam and anyone who thinks like him. They guy buys guns as much as the rest of us yet he argues that its a bad idea to arm citizens to defend themselves.


----------



## bio-chem (Oct 13, 2011)

Killermonkey said:


> Fuck lam and anyone who thinks like him. They guy buys guns as much as the rest of us yet he argues that its a bad idea to arm citizens to defend themselves.



further evidence all the stuff he posts is just to get a rise out of you


----------



## Killermonkey (Oct 14, 2011)

Perhaps, however I still despise people who shit on the constitution.


----------



## dogsoldier (Oct 14, 2011)

It all boils down to this folks,

Unless you are planning on breaking into my house, the shotgun in my closet should be of no concern of yours.


----------

