# Frustrated. Cut or Bulk (photos attached)



## nevilledp (Oct 1, 2011)

Hi guys.
I am 34 years old. Been training for 6 years (you wouldn't say that when looking at the pics).
I am trying to bodybuild, but my body seems to be just not in the mood to co-exist.
I weight train 4-5 days per week, I adjust my training every 6 weeks or so between various rep ranges and rest periods, etc.
My diet is on 3000 cals per day. Protein at around 250grams, carbs around 300grams, fats around 89 grams.
My diet is very clean, I am very strict (tuna, sweet potatoe, potatoe, fish, brown rice, etc). I use 10grams creatine per day, 5 grams glutamine, and some whey.
My weight is 209lbs, my bodyfat (estimated) at 15%, and my height is 6' 1.2".
I have been "cutting" for the past 13 weeks and went from around 19.5% bodyfat to 15%
What should I do? Any advice. I am so frustrated.


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## alan84 (Oct 1, 2011)

Based on your numbers, 3000 Cals a day is your maintenace level. You will not lose nor gain weight on 3000 Cals a day. If I were you, I would cut down a bit more to around 10% BF then start bulking. In that case, go on 2500 Cals a day with strict diet,High protein, moderate healthy fats and lots of starchy vegetables and do once a week cheat meal. Do that until you reach your goal, then start clean bulking. Just my 2 cents.


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## Digitalash (Oct 1, 2011)

keep cutting imo


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## Gazhole (Oct 1, 2011)

Drop your carbs, drop your cals, increase your fat, keep your protein the same. Train like a demon on crack.


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## stepaukas (Oct 1, 2011)

ask some of the guys at your gym if they know a coach... an older coach thats been around a long time, and really knows his stuff.. not some 25 year old kid that thinks he knows how to train and eat. sit down with him, tell him your background, your past sports, your current training schedule and let him know your goals.. just spend time talking to him and let him know everything about you.. maybe his advice and training ways are what you need. i hear and see at my gym so many young guys trying to give advice on what they just read in a book or seen in a magazine.. great trainers/coaches are out there, few, but they are there...  but you gotta look. find an old one that really knows his stuff...


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## squigader (Oct 1, 2011)

nevilledp said:


> Hi guys.
> I am 34 years old. Been training for 6 years (you wouldn't say that when looking at the pics).
> I am trying to bodybuild, but my body seems to be just not in the mood to co-exist.
> I weight train 4-5 days per week, I adjust my training every 6 weeks or so between various rep ranges and rest periods, etc.
> ...



Cut back your training to 4 days a week. I think that a day of recovery is needed between most workouts, especially if you're giving it your all. Your body will fight against change if it feels like there's too much going on. Remember that muscles grow during recovery, not training. Make sure you're also getting 8-9 hours of sleep a night. 7 hours or less of sleep will hinder your gains.



alan84 said:


> Based on your numbers, 3000 Cals a day is your maintenace level. You will not lose nor gain weight on 3000 Cals a day. If I were you, I would cut down a bit more to around 10% BF then start bulking. In that case, go on 2500 Cals a day with strict diet,High protein, moderate healthy fats and lots of starchy vegetables and do once a week cheat meal. Do that until you reach your goal, then start clean bulking. Just my 2 cents.





Gazhole said:


> Drop your carbs, drop your cals, increase your fat, keep your protein the same. Train like a demon on crack.



I agree - drop your carbs a chunk (maybe down to 200-250), increase your fats a little (olive oil when cooking? Maybe have beef instead of tuna for half of your tuna meals?). BTW, 10g of creatine is overkill (unless you're "loading" for the first week you're using it), you're wasting it at that amount. 2-5g is a typical dose. Glutamine is a placebo - no studies have linked it to improved performance, don't buy another one when you finish it. Instead, invest in a good, yet inexpensive multivitamin.

Train harder. Like a demon on crack, like Gaz said. What's your current and previous program like?

Follow this advice and you'll see really good results.


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## Built (Oct 1, 2011)

^This. 

To the op - can you describe your current workout? Be specific - sets, reps, weight used.


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## Calves of Steel (Oct 1, 2011)

First work on your posture. Stand up straighter, shoulderblades back, fan out your lats a tiny bit. Make a conscious effort and I promise you will love the difference in a week. Your body looks very much like mine did a few years ago, and a friend helped me fix my posture and it made my body look way nicer in general.

And you definitely look like you've been working out for at least 6 years. I was not surprised to see that. When you look at other people that have been working out as long as you, remember height makes a huge difference. I'm 6'0 and 238, 16%bf and I'm always finding myself seeing people who are 5'7 or 5'8 around 10%bf thinking they're bigger than I am, only to find out they're 160 or 170 (no offense to anyone that size)...and you're 209! 209 15% bodyfat is fantastic.

IMO, set a target look, and then decide if you want to cut or bulk. Try to lean towards cutting first. And good work man!


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## NcTo (Oct 1, 2011)

I agree with advice as far as diet goes. I think you should be doing a slight cut/recomp. Lower cals by 350-400 a day, lower carbs, raise fats a bit. Keep protein the same or slightly raise it. You also might be interested in doing a full blood screening and see if there's anything "off".


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## blizzard93 (Oct 3, 2011)

definitely cut.   flip your thought process on gym...use less weight, laser focus on form.  i hit a similar plateau after years of training.  my body didnt want to cooperate anymore.  then, i became a demon about form, lowered weights, changed rep speed, etc..  lo and behold, my body woke up.


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## ExLe (Oct 3, 2011)

nevilledp said:


> Hi guys.
> I am 34 years old. Been training for 6 years (you wouldn't say that when looking at the pics).
> I am trying to bodybuild, but my body seems to be just not in the mood to co-exist.
> I weight train 4-5 days per week, I adjust my training every 6 weeks or so between various rep ranges and rest periods, etc.
> ...


 
Why did you post 2 of the exact same threads? You also posted this under diet and nutrition...

This is bad board etiquette, you are double dipping my friend


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## nevilledp (Oct 9, 2011)

Thanks guys. Sorry about posting in 2 threads. I assumed i would get advice on nutrition in the nutrition thread, and training advice in this thread. My apologies for breaking the board etiquette. Thanks for all the motivation, and complements  Sorry I have been off-line for a while, but I am back.

My training for the past 3 months was a 5-day-a-week program.
Mon: Chest
Dumbbell Flyes
Dumbbell press
Inline Dumbbell Press
Incline Fly
bench press

Tue: Back
Pullups
Dumbbell Rows
Narrow grip pullups
Bent over Barbell rows

Wed: Legs
Lunges
Stiff legged deadlifts
Squats
Calve raises
Leg Curls

Thu: Shoulders
Alternating Dumbbell Press
Side Raises
Reverse Flyes
Front Raises
Shrugs

Fri: Biceps/Triceps
bench dips
French press
Dumbbell extensions overhead
Dumbbell Curls
hammer Curls
Reverse grip curls

All were 3 sets of 8 reps, to failure.

I am changing from tomorrow to a 3-day split:
Training will be Mon/Wed/Fri and repeat again Mon/Wed/Fri and I will alternate between workouts 1,2,3 and 4 below. So week 1 will be 1/2/3 and then week 2 will be 4/1/2 and so on.

Program below:

Day 1.
Squats 3 x 5, 1 x 10
Ham Work 3 x 8-10
Pullups 20-40 reps
BB Rows 4 x 6
Curls 2 x 10

Day 2.
DB or Incline Bench 2 x 5, 2 x 8
Dips 2 x 8
DB OH Press 3 x 8
Side Laterals 2 x 10
Skulls 2 x 10

Day 3.
Deadlifts 2-3 x 5
Leg Press 2 x 10 or 1 x 20
Chins 20-40 reps
DB Rows 3 x 8
Curls 2 x 10

Day 4.
Bench Press 2 x 5, 2 x 8
DB Flyes 2 x 8-12
Military Press 3 x 8
Side Laterals 2 x 10
Skulls 2 x 10

I do try to up my weight or reps every week, but on the low calorie "cut" diet I am struggling to keep this up.

Thanks guys. Looking forward to some more great advice !


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## jocksox (Oct 15, 2011)

Looks like Legs/Back   Check/Shoulders  twice a week.    
How about
   Chest/Tris
    Back/Bis
    Shoulders/Trap
    Legs?  

Day off or not then repeat.  

Just my two cents.  


Dude.


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## Merkaba (Oct 15, 2011)

What do you do for work/job?

You're not that bad off.  You've got a wide back and yea if you worked on your posture I think you'd do better.  Of course we could have a big discussion about your back verses your chest work.  Concentrate on getting good horizontal back work in...rows, etc. and make sure you do them well and decently heavy in relation to your chest work.  Many people slack up on the back weight.  According to a few scattered accounts here and there it can lead to a tendency of bad posture as an imbalance occurs with your front side being "tighter and pulling" you more, rolling your shoulders over.  Kinda arguable but I know most people do a ton of pushing and chest exercises but few rear delt work...and many times slack up on row work, many times due to bad form that can't support good weight.  Like humped over at the rack trying to do one arm rows instead of tripoding it up on a bench, getting in power position and cranking out some weight. Power position on the seated row with some weight...bent over rows or t bar work....???

And yea, I'm not a fan of doing legs and back on the same day.  That's alot of work on the CNS and just on your body period. Most free weight leg work is going to be using the back, believe it or not. Think about it the next time you're working.  Bracing the lower back in the power position is work enough.    I was in the gym today and did squats for 30 minutes and left.  15 minutes of that was warm up.


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## nevilledp (Oct 16, 2011)

yep .... he he ... I sit in front a PC for 9 hours - 5 days a week (computer programmer by profession). I see what you guys mean re: my posture. so, your suggestion is that I should include more back ex. Like seated rows and bent-over rows and some rear-delt shoulder work? I have realised my shoulder power is very weak ... I struggle to push heavy weights with my shoulders. And I have lessened my chest sets. I will look for a nice 4 day split with no repeat of bodyparts per week and post here ASAP. Anyone have some good links on carb cycling by the way? THANKS GUYS some great advice from you !


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## mapanoy (Oct 16, 2011)

Maybe drop more calories will work


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## nevilledp (Nov 28, 2011)

so ... dropping calories worked wonders ... and carb cycling ... THANKS to all the advice guys ...


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## Work IN Progress (Nov 28, 2011)

If your delts are weak and you want to improve them, don't try to go crazy all at once with weight. If you hurt your shoulder, everything you are trying to do right now will be for nothing.


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## Hubauer (Nov 28, 2011)

nevilledp said:


> so ... dropping calories worked wonders ... and carb cycling ... THANKS to all the advice guys ...



Good progress man! 
If you don't mind, what did your macros look like?
Did you stick with the 3 days/week lifting?


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## Boomer182 (Nov 28, 2011)

I would cut if it were me.


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## nova1970sb (Nov 28, 2011)

good work man! if it were me though i would put my leg press right after my squats, and ham work (good mornings are my fav) with my deadlifts. and I have had great luck lately putting my row work on my bench day!


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## Gissurjon (Nov 28, 2011)

not bad for 2 months, not bad at all, looks like you maintained most of the muscle if not gained some.


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## nevilledp (Nov 28, 2011)

thanks guys ... 

@Hubauer: no, I made some small changes to the original 3 day program, and changed to a 4 day split. My training program I got from this link: Routines and Advice *updated* - Bodybuilding.com Forums (the one that reads "A favorite of mine that hits each bodypart twice per week"). Only difference is I do it Mon/Tue/Thu/Fri

********************************
A favorite of mine that hits each bodypart twice per week.

Day 1

4x Squats: 5 reps
3x Ham Work: 8 reps
3x BB or DB Row: 8 reps
2x Bicep Curls: 10 reps

Day 2

4x Bench Press: 5 reps
3x Military Press: 8 reps
3x Tricep Isolation: 8 reps
2x Ab/Calf Work: 15 reps

Day 3

4x Deadlifts: 5 reps
3x Pullups: 8 reps
3x Leg Press: 8 reps
2x Biceps Curls: 10 reps

Day 4

4x DB or Incline Press: 5 reps
3x Chest Dips: 8 reps
3x Side Lateral Raise: 8 reps
2x Ab/Calf Work: 15 reps

Day 1: On
Day 2: On
Day 3: Off
Day 4: On
Day 5: Off
Day 6: On
Day 7: Off


********************************

My diet I am basing on this article: T NATION | Carb Cycling Codex

My diet is then:
Mon: High
Tue: Low
Wed: Low
Thu: High
Fri: Med
Sat: Low (+cheat meal)
Sun: Low

Also, I have all my carbs by 12pm, and then in afternoons/evenings only protein&fat. I train at 4am (no choice !!!). And then I walk 6km 4 days per week to work and back - that is my only cardio.

@Boomer182: yes I agree, i am still cutting. need to get BF lower before even thinking bulking.

Thanks guys for all the compliments and advice, I still have a looooong way to go !


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## TheJabroniLifter (Nov 29, 2011)

Great progress man! Just curious, what are your lifts, and what were they before the cut?


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## Built (Nov 29, 2011)




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## ckcrown84 (Nov 29, 2011)

You should lose some weight, tone up, and worry about building some muscle mass.


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## nevilledp (Nov 30, 2011)

ckcrown84 said:


> You should lose some weight, tone up, and worry about building some muscle mass.



hey there. yeah, that is the plan ... drop the bodyfat % ... and then get some muscle mass. I have been wondering, at what point in time do I "switch" from dropping fat to building muscle ? ... and yes, I realise the transition will need to be very gradual ... adding maybe 200 calories to my diet every 2 weeks ... right ?


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## stfuandliftbtch (Dec 7, 2011)

just lean bulk man...

"fats around 89 grams"

same. i try and keep mine around 89.473829 ahaha wtf so random


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## meow (Dec 7, 2011)

Wow great progress, keep up the good work.


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## stfuandliftbtch (Dec 8, 2011)

what they said! awesome progress!


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## Curlingcadys (Dec 8, 2011)

excellent work, amazing what a little tweak in the diet will do. Yes ofcourse your training played a part as well but as we all know it starts with what your shoving down your throat. Good job.


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## CaptainNapalm (Dec 10, 2011)

You can tell you put in some effort in the gym however just looking at your pics it's not the gains that don't stand out but just from the way you stand and carry your body I can guess that you're frustrated and lacking confidence.  Having said that, your first change should be your attitude adjustment and by that I mean start thinking positive, feeling good about yourself and most importantly adjust your posture to reflect that.  By standing/walking straighter, pushing your chest out, learning to feel your lats and traps and how to push them out you can carry yourself looking much better than you look right now.  I think the muscle is there to a decent degree just your posture isn't.  

The next adjustment I would make is increase your rest days.  Train hard 3-4 times a week and ensure you get 3-4 rest days.  Not sure what your exercise selection is like but if you're not already doing so, on your next bulk, focus on the following lifts only: squats, deadlifts, rack pulls, bench press, shoulder press, dips, bb-rows, pull-ups and chin-ups with minimal isolation.  These compound lifts will get you big provided your diet and rest is in check.  Give yourself a week to two off for every 8-12 weeks of training.  Many will probably disagree with me here but from experience I started looking and feeling bigger and better when I would take 2 weeks off for every 8 to 12 weeks working hard in the gym, which means I was overtraining yet didn't even realize it, it's not always easy to spot.  Sometimes our frustration and ambitions cloud our judgement on what proper rest time does for the body in terms of muscle gain.

But really, you can tell you put in the work in the gym just it's transparent in your pics that you don't think so.


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## nevilledp (Dec 11, 2011)

What an informative post ! Thanks so much for taking the time to write this ... and I will follow your advice ! Thanks again



CaptainNapalm said:


> You can tell you put in some effort in the gym however just looking at your pics it's not the gains that don't stand out but just from the way you stand and carry your body I can guess that you're frustrated and lacking confidence.  Having said that, your first change should be your attitude adjustment and by that I mean start thinking positive, feeling good about yourself and most importantly adjust your posture to reflect that.  By standing/walking straighter, pushing your chest out, learning to feel your lats and traps and how to push them out you can carry yourself looking much better than you look right now.  I think the muscle is there to a decent degree just your posture isn't.
> 
> The next adjustment I would make is increase your rest days.  Train hard 3-4 times a week and ensure you get 3-4 rest days.  Not sure what your exercise selection is like but if you're not already doing so, on your next bulk, focus on the following lifts only: squats, deadlifts, rack pulls, bench press, shoulder press, dips, bb-rows, pull-ups and chin-ups with minimal isolation.  These compound lifts will get you big provided your diet and rest is in check.  Give yourself a week to two off for every 8-12 weeks of training.  Many will probably disagree with me here but from experience I started looking and feeling bigger and better when I would take 2 weeks off for every 8 to 12 weeks working hard in the gym, which means I was overtraining yet didn't even realize it, it's not always easy to spot.  Sometimes our frustration and ambitions cloud our judgement on what proper rest time does for the body in terms of muscle gain.
> 
> But really, you can tell you put in the work in the gym just it's transparent in your pics that you don't think so.


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## nevilledp (Dec 11, 2011)

yeah I know ... 89grams .... ha ha ha. that was just the figure I got when I added up all my fats ... not a figure I am necessarily following exactly ...



stfuandliftbtch said:


> just lean bulk man...
> 
> "fats around 89 grams"
> 
> same. i try and keep mine around 89.473829 ahaha wtf so random


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## nevilledp (Dec 11, 2011)

they stayed more or less the same ... during the cut ... here and there some actually went up !



TheJabroniLifter said:


> Great progress man! Just curious, what are your lifts, and what were they before the cut?


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## endurance724 (Dec 11, 2011)

awesome progress, i just started cutting, am 6foot 207 pounds, this motivated me, thanks buddy!


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## aminoman74 (Dec 11, 2011)

Eat clean and get around 4 k of clean cals. And bulk realy hard


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## TheJabroniLifter (Dec 11, 2011)

What were your lifts before and after the cut? Also interested in knowing what your bf% was before and what it was after the cut.


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