# Need some help with carb cycling



## jbish8 (Jun 26, 2009)

Ok, so I've just started bulking this week at 15% above TDE. I was previously cutting on a carb cycle program (BFFM) with relative success. When I went back to bulking I changed my macros to P-35/C-40/F-25. So far I feel bloated alot and seem to be retaining water cause I've already lost some of my "sharpness" but my BF% hasn't changed. 
I read Built's carb cycling program from her blog and would like to try it. It makes more sense than the one I was previously doing as it coincides with workout/rest days. So here's where I'm at so far.
My LBM is 153
My TDE is 2800 cal. so 15% more would be an average of 3220 cals per day. I like the idea of cycling calorie days to coincide with workout/rest days as well as cycling carbs, so the first question: Is there a certain formula between workout/rest days when bulking that works best to keep down fat gain.

So I calculated my protein at 2gx LBM (is this too much?) which comes to 306g giving me 1,224 cals.
Then my fat at 1g per LBM giving me 1,377 cals.
This leaves me with 601 cals. for carbs which calculates to 155g.
Obviously this is based on eating the same calories everyday instead of cycling calories (which is why I need help), but does this look right?

Also, (this question is for Built), in your article, you mention all meals besides the workout ones are only protein and fat. Does this mean NO carbs or are you referring to just starchy ones? The reason I ask is I've always been taught (likely incorrectly) that you need carbs at every meal to help the delivery process of nutrients. I guess I'm wondering if simple carbs such as milk and fruit are ok?

I was also wondering if there are other benefits of carb cycling while bulking, such as less fat gain. Again I guess I'm wondering why you use it to bulk when satiety isn't really an issue.


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## Built (Jun 26, 2009)

Satiety is ALWAYS an issue for me lol - I can EAT!

For you, if it isn't an issue, don't worry about carb cycling when bulking. 

All I need to know to help you set up a carb cycle is your maintenance calories, your LBM, and the macros you are currently running. Oh, and your training schedule - it's four days a week, right?

Re protein and fat meals - that's just for comfort. If you don't need to keep 'em separate for satiety, don't worry about it. 

Oh, and no, you DON'T need carbs at every meal. Nothing wrong with it if you're comfortable eating that way though.


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## jbish8 (Jun 26, 2009)

I'd still like to try it just to see if I like it more.
My Lean mass is 153 LB.
My maintenance is 2800 cals.
My macros I've been running is P-35/C-40/-25
I workout Mon., Tue., Thurs., Fri.

Thanks for all your help. I'll stop buggin' ya now.


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## Built (Jun 26, 2009)

What grams have you been running, jbish? I'm too lazy to convert from the percentages. 

How low and how high have you gone with carbs in the past? What was the lowest carbs you were comfortable on, and what were the highest?

Do you feel more comfortable on higher fat, or higher carb?


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## jbish8 (Jun 26, 2009)

Oops, sorry. Now I'm readin' ya.
Protein @ 290g
Carbs @ 325
Fats @ 90g

I've gone as low as 30% (190g when cutting) on carbs and I've been as high as 50% (400g when bulking/312 when cutting) however I always add mostly carbs when I burn more cals participating in my various hobbies so I've probly gotten in the 600g range before.

As far as what I feel comfortable on, honestly since I started this a couple years ago I can't ever remember being hungry, even while cutting, infact I would much rather cut than cut than bulk. I think the reason I'm interested in trying this out is I FEEL "more cut" the less carbs I take and even when I was down at my lowest carb intake I never experienced any of the "low carb effects" I had always been warned about (headaches, fatigue, crankiness). I was carb cycling though so I never went more than 3 days on the low carb stuff. I feel sluggish and bloated when I'm eating alot of carbs but for me it has nothing to do with satiety. I really just want whatever is gonna give me the best results. 
As far as high fat, I don't think I've ever gone more than 110g even on my 5000 calorie days so I don't really know how I feel on that. I will say that fat is my weakness. My cheat meals always involve loads of it (nachos, bacon cheeseburgers, smothered burrittos.........gotta stop, I'm dripping on the keyboard. Sorry about the book. Thanks


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## DIVINITUS (Jun 26, 2009)

jbish8 said:


> I'd still like to try it just to see if I like it more.
> My Lean mass is 153 LB.
> My maintenance is 2800 cals.
> My macros I've been running is P-35/C-40/-25
> ...



What did you do to figure out your maintenance calories?  Built, am I wrong in thinking that 2800 calories is too high for 153lb?  If I am, can someone show me?


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## jbish8 (Jun 27, 2009)

DIVINITUS said:


> What did you do to figure out your maintenance calories?  Built, am I wrong in thinking that 2800 calories is too high for 153lb?  If I am, can someone show me?


I simply tracked my food intake religiously for about 2 years (I'm really anal about it actually, down to every tomato slice.) I don't use fitday (just cause I didn't know about it when I started), instead I use a site called Daily plate, but it does the same thing as fitday.
As far as being high, if anything, I'm probably a little low (I always round down cause of my phobia of gaining fat), but you're right if you use the standard formulas (Katch-Mcadle etc..). Based on the formulas, I should be around 2200 cals with an average activity level, but there in lies the difference. I burn at least 500-600 calories a day after normal activity. Don't forget, activity level can be the difference in 1000's of calories in maintenance. Also over the last couple years, as I've continued to eat right and workout , I've seen my maintenance increase (I assume) simply from improvement to my metabolism and my overall fitness. Who knows, but I like it.
Aside from all of that, I think I've always had a faster than average metabolism. I really have to track my intake/output carefully. If I don't eat EVERYTHING I burn (which I always have to force myself to do), I can wake up the following morning and be down 3-4 lbs., not a good thing when you're trying to bulk. As I've said before, I've had to put away upwards of 5-6k calories a day just to maintain. Built and I should have an eating contest.........I think I could take her.


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## Yanick (Jun 27, 2009)

Yeah calories can vary very widely. I have a super slow metabolism, at 220lbs I was eating 1900kcal/day to drop weight, then I stalled and dropped to 1700kcal/day to lose another couple of pounds. I'm at a point where I'm not going to drop my kcals further so I'm going up for 2 weeks then dropping back down and losing the last 10 pounds or so. There's a guy on another forum that eats like 4k/day just to maintain and I have about 30-40pounds on him!


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## jbish8 (Jun 27, 2009)

Yanick said:


> There's a guy on another forum that eats like 4k/day just to maintain and I have about 30-40pounds on him!


I hear Michael Phelps puts away 8-10k a day and I don't think he has an ounce of fat on him.
I do have to be careful not to whine too much while I'm forcing myself to eat the last few bites of my 16 oz. filet mignon and baked potato while my wife nibbles her broccoli and 1/2 cup of cottage cheese.......that glare could stop a charging bull in it's tracks. 

I really do feel bad and think it sucks that some people get the raw end of the deal, although my situation does make it hard to gain weight (and that's what I want right now).


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## Built (Jun 27, 2009)

jbish8, you could try something like this if you like - but keep it mind it's just a suggestion and you are more than free to fiddle with these numbers as you see fit. This is based on a 15% increase over maintenance, with a 15% caloric difference between high and low days. Protein is set at 1.9g/lb LBM, and fats are at .5g/lb LBM on training days, 1g/lb on the off-days. 

Aim for about 25g from saturates and 25g from polyunsaturates on both days; lean heavily on monounsaturated fat for the remainder. 
__________________
LBM = 153 lbs. 
Maintenance calories: 2800 per day; 
4 lifting days per week.
An extra 2,940 calories per week, for an anticipated gain of 0.8 pounds per week

*Average daily macros: * <- in other words, you could eat this every day if you prefer
275g of protein, 
109g of fat, and 
284g of carbohydrate, 
3,220 calories in total.

*(4) Lifting days: *
275g of protein, 
77g of fat, and 
402g of carbohydrate, 
3,400 calories in total.

*(3) Non-lifting days:* 
275g of protein, 
153g of fat, and 
125g of carbohydrate, 
2,980 calories in total.

Now, your wife. Is she trying to eat a lowfat diet? Low fat is often a disaster for females. Let me know if you'd like me to examine her programme.


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## jbish8 (Jun 27, 2009)

Thanks a ton Built. That should get me started. I'll play with it to see what works best for me and I really appreciate all your help.

As for my wife. Here's what she's doing. (I'll see if she'll let me post up some pics)
She's 31
5'6
127lb
17.5% BF
LBM 104.8
She would like to get in the 13-14% range
She's always been fairly thin and like me hasn't always watched what she eats. I don't think it's ever really caught up to her though, mostly just cause she isn't really a BIG eater so even though we didn't always eat "clean" she at least ate small portions. The most she has ever weighed is 131lb. (other than when she's pregnant of course). Remember, good ole Tom Venuto's BFFM has been our bible for the last couple years, at least for me (She's been eating clean for about a year on and off). It worked well for me and I was able to reach my BF goal (still working on the LBM one), but she has really struggled with it. She can't seem to string together more than 3-4 weeks in a row without falling off the wagon. Up until a year ago all her workouts consisted of running (which she loves, don't ask me why) and the stupid "gym aerobics classes" (which she didn't love so much). For the last year I've got her lifting weights at about the same volume and such as I was doing (3 exersizes, 3 to 4-sets of 12 reps, 30-60 second rests per muscle), and she's really enjoyed it but she just can't seem to get lower than the high 16% to 17% range. I think she looks awesome as it is (she's already got a cool little 4-pac going) but she hates her butt and thigh area and knows that's where the last bit of fat is, however no amount of running seems to do the trick (something I've been telling her for a while now). She also would like to bulk up in the shoulder area, so I already prescribed your Shoulder routine and she absolutly LOVED it (as did I). I know this is probly' more info than you need but I thought you should know her goals and history.
Her maintenance is around 2050 (she's pretty active and a mother of 4 under age 8 so they keep her runnin').
She's eating 1400 cals per day right now @
P-105g (30%)
C-175 (50%)
F-32 (20%)
Unlike me her weakness is all about sweets and sugar (especially during that certain week). Any advice is greatly appreciated.


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## Built (Jun 27, 2009)

Ooookay... that shows me a lot. 

She's got lower body adiposity, which is my bugaboo as well. She will NOT do well on a low fat diet. She needs a much higher-fat mix. Women are far more sensitive to the satiety that comes from protein and fat than men, and anecdotal information I've gathered on this suggests this is particularly true of "pear" shapes such as myself and your wife.  Also, in women - more so than in men - appetite increases with exercise intensity. We can NOT exercise it off, not unless we totally dig being hungry.

Is she willing to try another plan?


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## jbish8 (Jun 27, 2009)

Built said:


> Is she willing to try another plan?


At this point, I think she'd be willing to eat dog food if she thought it would get her what she wants.

She's really just taking my advice cause it worked for me. I mean well, but obviously I've been steering her down the wrong track for the last year or so. (we'll just keep that to ourselves if ya don't mind). I want her to still talk to me for the next couple days.  I have no idea what " lower body adiposity" or whatever you said is. 
She would love some new direction.


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## Built (Jun 27, 2009)

Lower body = ... um, not upper body. LOL!

Adiposity = where she carries her fat.

Can you post up what her current workouts and diet looks like? BFFM is not my fave for women. It seems to work well for some men, but it's too much activity and too low fat for most women. 

What's her five-rep squat, dead and bench?


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## jbish8 (Jun 27, 2009)

Built said:


> Lower body = ... um, not upper body. LOL!
> 
> Adiposity = where she carries her fat.


Guess I should of put the quotation marks around adiposity only. I'm dumb, but not quite that dumb.
Anyways, her current workout looks like this.
MONDAY/UPPER
3 sets of ab stuff (leg lifts, Weighted machine crunches, cable crunches)
3 sets pull ups (as many reps as possible with bodyweight and then the rest to 12 assisted).
3-sets-12 reps supinated grip BB rows @ 50lbs
3-sets-12 reps hammer incline press @ 40 lbs (superset w/ as many as possible push-ups)
3-sets-12 reps cable flyes @ 50lbs
3-sets-12 reps hammer military press @ 40lbs
TUESDAY/LOWER
3-sets of oblique stuff
4-sets-12 reps back squats @ 75lbs on smith machine, superset with 10 box jumps (I've tried to get her on free weights but she can't get the form down, and I don't want her to get hurt).
4-sets-12 reps lunges @ 50lbs, superset with split squat jumps.
4-sets-12 reps SL deads @ 65lbs
3-sets-12 reps ham extensions @ 120lbs "machine weight".
3-sets-12 reps standing calf raises @ 55lbs
WEDNSDAY/REST/CARDIO

Thursday and Friday are essentially the same as Monday and Tuesday with a few minor exersize substitutions if she wants to and Saturday and Sunday are rest days with Saturday being a cardio day.
I'm not sure of her 5 rep max on bench squat and deads but I will check on Monday. 
As far as her diet, here is a link to her log on daily plate
Andipoo's Food, Diet, and Fitness Diary | LIVESTRONG.COM
If that's not what you're looking for, let me know.

She also said I could post these pics to give you a better feel as well.


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## Built (Jun 28, 2009)

She looks pretty sweet, actually. 

Her workouts are crap though - why all the high rep stuff, and why the hell the Smith machine? If she doesn't want to get hurt, you'd think she'd want to avoid machines. Those things are just injury-makers, especially Smith. Are the SL deads stiffs, or straight-leg? Does she do 'em with her legs locked straight?

And why all the ab work - so much ab work, and at the beginning of the workout... I don't think I've done as much ab work in my life as she does in a single workout. 

I'd be chewing my arm off hungry if I trained and ate like this. No wonder she has a hard time sticking to it. She's doing bulking reps to cut, and she's eating low fat, and more carbs than protein. She's trying to cut on 1450 calories a day and her protein is so low, and her fats are INSANELY low. 

Her trouble sticking to this is not her fault. I couldn't either. 

Now, her bodyfat - she looks to be about 20% to my eye, although the camera smooths out everyone's definition. Does she have vascularity anywhere? At sub 18%, she should have at least SOME veins showing, perhaps in her biceps? How was she assessed?


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## Built (Jun 28, 2009)

PS box jumps? Like, jumping over the box, onto it, or off of it? Why is she doing plyos while cutting?

Re squat form, may I recommend goblet squats? It's how I teach all my newbies.

And finally, thanks for the props on my shoulder routine - I get a lot of positive feedback on that little writeup.

Got Built? » The Shoulders of Giants


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## jbish8 (Jun 28, 2009)

Built said:


> Her workouts are crap though - why all the high rep stuff, and why the hell the Smith machine? If she doesn't want to get hurt, you'd think she'd want to avoid machines. Those things are just injury-makers, especially Smith. Are the SL deads stiffs, or straight-leg? Does she do 'em with her legs locked straight?
> 
> And why all the ab work - so much ab work, and at the beginning of the workout... I don't think I've done as much ab work in my life as she does in a single workout.


Cause' I just want to keep her weak and submissive to all of my manly desires <grunts, and pounds chest>.

Like I said, I mean well, and this is basically the identical program that worked for me....kind of (if you remember my original post was to help cut without losing so much lean mass). I also agreed that you got it right when you guessed I was doing too much volume. She saw that it worked for me and asked me to help her. I had no idea that we'd be so different (figured what's good for the gander is good for the goose). Told ya I was dumb.

As far as the smith machine, I hate it too, but didn't know what else to do. I will certainly have her try the goblet squats.

She is doing the deads with her knees slightly bent until she feels the pull in her hams. From what I can tell she's doing these correctly but I'm obviously not an expert. She does love these and says she really feels them (also the following day).

The box jumps: Step up onto a box (bench) step off and fall into a squat position and explode up into a jump as fast as possible. (again I didn't know plyos weren't good on a cut).

On her BF. That picture was her "before pic" (haven't taken an "after" one yet) from about 3 months ago after one of the binges (I'm not blaming her), so she has lost a couple of lbs. since then. She doesn't have any vascularity except when she works out, and then she does get some pretty good veins in her arms and shoulders. She was tested a couple weeks ago at BYU in the "bod pod". We alternate between the dexa scanner and Bod pod. They claim the bod pod is just as accurate as the scanner (they have both) but not as pricey, but who knows, she might be higher. I would definetly say her picture is not a completly accurate representation of her BF right now but it was the best I had. I'll take some more for a better assessment.

So now that we know what she's doing sucks, do you have any advice on how to fix it. Thanks again, and hope ya know I'm just playin' with the smart ass remarks.


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## Built (Jun 28, 2009)

Thank you for not being offended - I felt it might have come out a little harsh and I apologize for that, I know you meant well. 

Okay, so she's just below twenty percent bodyfat and she's going nuts trying to get down lower. She's had four kids and still she looks smokin' hot, she's not very far from where she needs to be.

Plyos are excellent sport-specific conditioning, but lousy on a cut, too much stress on the body. 

Her volume is far too high to be able to cut well, and the weights aren't heavy enough. I'm her size, 15 years older, and squat 165 for five rep sets during my cut. The deads sound like she's doing them right, but 12 reps for hams, heavy ham work... no. Hams are fast-twitch and her lower back will just get fatigued if she keeps repping them out. Get the weight heavier, and lower the reps to 5. 

Her diet, she needs to switch it around to less carb and more fat. Has she ever tried a low carb diet? And is she on the pill by any chance, or has one of you been snipped after the fourth one was hatched? The pill makes cutting hard as hell. All that estrogen, and it suppresses testosterone completely. 

Is she willing to try a different mix for her eats? How does she eat by the way - is she doing the "six meals a day" thing? When is she hungriest - AM or PM? What time of day does she train?


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## jbish8 (Jun 28, 2009)

Hey It's Andrea,  Jared's wife.  thanks for taking the time to post and helping me with a new plan... I am excited to try something new...  I am not on the pill so that should not be a issue and I have never really tried the low carb diet,  but willing try anything at this point to loose the rest of the fat.  As far as training I train when I can.  Late afternoon mostly and that's when I am the most hungry.  I really appreciate the help and now if you'll excuse me I need to go shoot my husband for putting me through hell the past year! LOL


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## Built (Jun 28, 2009)

LMAO!  You got the PM then. Excellent. Feel free to PM me with any problems you might have. 

Read my blog for background - what I gave you is basically the sample at the end of "how to do cardio if you must", about halfway down this page. 
Got Built? » Open Source Fitness - Get started here

To his credit, your husband tried. Men and women have different hunger/satiety issues.


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## jbish8 (Jun 28, 2009)

We got it. We're on the road to rippedness.Hopefully we'll be postin' some good progress pics soon. Thanks for all your great advice Built.


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## jordybb (Jun 28, 2009)

jbish8 said:


> I'd still like to try it just to see if I like it more.
> My Lean mass is 153 LB.
> My maintenance is 2800 cals.
> My macros I've been running is P-35/C-40/-25
> ...



I think you must work out to lessen your calories, and for cycling you need not to worry , its normal....


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## jbish8 (Jun 29, 2009)

jordybb said:


> I think you must work out to lessen your calories, and for cycling you need not to worry , its normal....


Not really sure what you mean.........thanks anyways.


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