# Pct protocols?  No AI for pct?



## Goldenera (Mar 31, 2012)

I realize things change. Guys do blood tests now more often etc. 

Yrs ago no one knew crap about pct. yrs ago guys only used hcg post cycle. Now guys use it for oct. 

I see the common thing is to use clomid and nolva for pct. they are both serms and have similar function. Last time  i did a cycle the common thing was to use aromosin an AI to lower estro and use either clomid or nolva not both for pct.

Why do guys use both clomid & nolva for pct now and why no AI???  I was always told no AI for pct and all the estro floating around can be bad news when u stop using the serms and thing like gyno etc can pop up after pct. where as if u use an AI and actually fix the issue when u stop the serms all is well because u actually lowered the estro and stopped more from happening. 

Thoughts??


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## Roaddkingg (Mar 31, 2012)

Most of us guys use clomid and aromasin for PCT.
We always keep the nolvadex around for ON cycle in case of a gyno issue.
In this scenerio the clomid helps to get the natural test going again and the aromasin since it is suicidal to estrgen stop you from having a estro rebound effect.
We also prefer to use HCG ON cycle but never IN pct. You can use the HCG UP until the pct begins but after that is like I stated. Clomid & aromasin.
With differant cycles differant doses casn be used but for most cycles something like this is sufficient.
100 mgs clomid first wk, then 75 and the last two wks 50mgs. Aromasin 25mgs pre day wk 1, 25 wk 2 and then 12.5mgs per day for the next two wks.


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## Goldenera (Mar 31, 2012)

Maybe I came across as to much of a newby

I understand what nolva is and clomid is. I'm aware of how to use hcg for oct. ie start 2 weeks in dose 2 times a week 250-500iu every 3-4 days. 

My question specially is why do guys use both clomid and nolva stacked together for pct without running an AI got pct??

Im aware of lh and fsh that nolva and clomid on particular bring to the table. 

Why use both clomid and nolva they both are serms. Nolva targets gyno from test better the clomid I get that

Seems silly to me to stack 2 serms and omit the AI for pct in particular.


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## overburdened (Mar 31, 2012)

I'll jump in here and give my two cents.....
clomid is a SERM; however, clomid also works as a lh/fsh/gnrh agonist(to a different degree and somewhat different 'pathway' than hcg)... clomid is a 'estrogen like molecule'(as is tamoxifen).  clomid is not very potent as a SERM(though it works well for a lot of individuals) but it is moderately potent in increasing endogenous testosterone....
Nolvadex is a moderately strong SERM.  It attaches to the estrogen receptor(and to shgb) with a stronger binding affinity than Estradiol, thus kicking estradiol off and into the bloodstream.  since it(tamoxifen) also attaches to SHBG, this estradiol(E2) is , for the most part, free(unbound).... your body 'sees' too much 'estrogen' and works to eliminate it....This is the basis for which clomid and tamox work(generalization) as SERMs
keep the above in mind for the rest of pct/oct I'm about to go in to...... There is only so much published clinical data on these compounds(they don't go into 'pct/oct' too much in actual clinical studies) so we are all, for the most part relying on theories, other's experiences, etc...

hcg mimics fsh, lh, and to a small degree tsh...(and has a few other peculiar properties that there isn't much need for mention in this thread)....  hcg is very potent in its ability to increase endogenous testosterone production; however, be it male or female.... you also produce estrogens(E2 and a couple others).... Just talking estro and test(without delving into thyroid, etc), long term use of hcg can 'overstimulate' leydig cells in the testes.... this can, at a given point,  downregulate how effective it is.....  (think of it as being on 200mg of test/week for a year....  there's a point when it just doesn't really 'feel' like you're on test anymore....)  I'll come back to this at the end...
being that you will produce test and estro from hcg use, you probably want to take an anti-e along with it...I prefer to use a SERM over an AI with hcg(some will disagree, I'm sure), I generally choose clomid, but if E2 levels are elevated more than I like I'll add nolva also....

Here's where it gets to be a little more of a 'controversial' topic among bodybuilders....  Should you use hcg while 'on' to keep from shutting down?  should you use clomid while 'on'?  should you use and AI while 'on'? for pct?.................ask 20 different people, you will get 20 different answers.....

What I theorized, and tried(among many other things I tried) was this.....
Keep a SERM on hand, Keep an AI on hand, don't do a 'heavy cycle without having hcg on hand,  don't use anything that can increase progesterones or act(negatively) as a PR agonist without winny on hand(or, preferably, dostinex)....

That being said, and with the above info on clomid, nolva, and hcg(and knowing both anastrazole and letro are extremely potent AIs and aromasin is suicidal AI, not as potent)....you can design your pct... or oct.... pretty easily by taking into consideration the compounds that will comprise your 'cycle'....

This would be a 'common' oct for a hypothetical cycle I would hypothetically use that had no PR+ compounds, for 'bulking':
proviron(if I can hypothetically put my hands on it for a reasonable price)50mg ed
nolva(only if absolutely necessary, and only one dose...20-40mg)
Clomid(if I want to 'lessen' shutdown.....50mg ed) I rarely use clomid oct
letro(ONLY IF NOLVA DIDNT TAKE CARE OF ISSUE)
that's it!!!  I want to gain when bulking so I use least amount of SERM I can get away with....and don't want lipids out of whack, so I stay away from AIs unless they are absolutely NECESSARY!

Dieting oct:
Proviron50-100mg ed
nolva 20mg ed
letro(only if I am doing a show, or NEED TO TAKE IT)1.25MG EOD
clomid can be used also(as above) I RARELY do..


PCT:
If I am shut down completely  I will use hcg(500-1500iu EOD)2-3wks.. no hcg if not shut down hard....
clomid(100-150mg ed)1-2wks, 50-100mged 1wk, 50mg ed 1 week
nolva20mg(if no hcg)4wks....40mg/day 5 wks (if hcg is used)
proviron(100mg/day) 4 weeks or full bridge between cycles
Again, I don't use an AI unless I have to.....

My reasoning behind this all:
Save the strongest compound for when you really need it(hcg) so it works when you need it to, and you aren't 'desensitized'
Save the AI for when you really need them(so your lipids aren't out of whack)
When using hcg, AIs can potentially block some conversions that aid in increasing endogenous test... SERMs and proviron are generally more than sufficient at keeping estrogens at a reasonably low level...(usually.. but have them on hand just in case..)


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## Goldenera (Mar 31, 2012)

thanks for the details brother!  
I'm aware of those details but I appreciate the detailed info & response for sure !

I guess the simple answer is everyone has their own preferred method just as we do with everything else. 

As u said. Some guys don't use oct unless they need. Others go the preventative route

Just seemed different to run both clomid & nolva together and not AI for pct in particular. 

Im on the fence as to whether I want to do another cycle. If I do I will do pre, during, post blood tests. Then I will have real feedback as to what my body is doing.


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## overburdened (Mar 31, 2012)

keep us posted.... always nice to see the bloodwork to go along with what you're doing/using....  helps everyone!


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## Goldenera (Mar 31, 2012)

For sure. My hcg took forever to come last time and I didn't run it when I wanted. Lesson learned. Pct/oct in hand before cycle.
 Lesson 2 pct peps can be questionable......use legit pct meds and bloodwork for absolutes!


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