# No spotter help??!



## lancs (May 16, 2010)

Hiya, im wanting to train to grow as much muscle a female naturally can but i have no spotter, ive asked people but they let me down so i quit asking now.
does anyone have any advice how to train as hard without a spotter?
and what is a good 4 day routine? 

thanks everyone. lol


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## DOMS (May 16, 2010)

How often do you really need a spotter?

I only use a spotter on exercises where I can get trapped.  Such as the heavy decline bench press.  If I flat bench, or incline, I can lower the bar to just below my chest, and roll it down to my quads, sit up, shrug the bar off, turn, and rack it.

If you're squatting, use a squat or power rack.

When I do need a spotter, I just grab a gym employee for 3 to 5 minutes.  I make it a point to rack weights that others leave around (and even reorganize plates on stands), so I'm on very good terms with the staff and they're happy to help.

So, how often do you really need a spotter?


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## SilentBob187 (May 16, 2010)

Dumbbells.  Worst case scenario you make a little bit of noise dropping some weight but you're still much safer than being under the bar without a spot.

4 day-
Legs (squats, extensions, deads(maybe,) lunges, leg curls)
Back (pullups/pulldown, rows, tbar, chinups/narrow pulldown)
Chest (incline press, cable flies, flat bench, pushups)
Shoulders (arnold press/shoulder press, rear delt/facepulls, lateral raises, may some bi/tri work)


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## Marat (May 16, 2010)

With pegs on the squat rack and dumbbells that just fall to the ground when I drop them, the only time I need some sort of spot is during higher weight bench pressing. With that, the only real job of the spotter is to hand off the bar when needed and pull it off my chest when it gets stuck. Other than that, I'm spotter-free.


Also, in terms of advice for a good routine, we need some more information on what your goals are.


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## lancs (May 16, 2010)

i feel i could lift a heavier weight if i had the spotter to just 'help' me on the final stage of the lift, i train with a weight that i know i can lift heavier but when i go for the heavier one i use momentum or dont go full range of movement, realllllly irritate myself. like when im doing deltiod raises. im thinking of getting a personal trainer, does anyone agree or think its a waste of money?


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## lancs (May 16, 2010)

thanks for the workous @ silentbob will give it a try.

My goals are to have huge muscles and less bodyfat, im currently bed bound due to op but when im training again i do the Keto diet so energy is down sometimes.


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## Marat (May 16, 2010)

The role of a spotter is to help you avoid injury, not to help you complete a rep. They shouldn't be touching your weight during your set.  If you are unable to perform the full range of motion, you need to make programming adjustments. Usually, decreasing the weight is what is required.

Everyone would be better served having a qualified coach. The issue is that the vast majority of 'personal trainers' are basically glorified rep-counters and are nowhere near qualified to coach you. If you are fortunate enough to get a hold of someone like Built, Merkaba, or Sassy, then by all means go for it. Find someone with credentials that are beyond passing a couple certification tests --- look for someone with plenty of experience and one who had reached a high level of fitness themselves. Also, avoid people like Jillian Michaels/The Biggest Loser-type trainers like that plague. They do a great job subsituting skill for the ability to bring upon pain.


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## Built (May 16, 2010)

Maybe post up a bit more about yourself - how tall are you, what do you weigh, what is your level of conditioning, what training have you done before... also what, if any, exercises will be contraindicated after you recover from your current surgery?

PS I've hardly ever trained with a spotter and I'm fairly muscular. I can't think of any time when I've truly needed one.


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## lancs (May 16, 2010)

thanks everyone for your help i really appreciate it.

I'm 5ft 4" weigh 147lb .....30% bodyfat which is why im doing the keto diet.
my eating plan includes 140g of protein and less than 50g of carbs per day, whilst im recovering from my op im not following any eating plan.

I want to get as big as i can naturally and get my bodyfat down to 15% ish. 

when im recoverd from my op (1 week/2 weeks) i will be able to train as normal again, i train 3/4 exercises per muscle and they are mainly isolation exercises.

any help i am given or routine advice i will be more than willing to try out, you know what you are talking about so ill take everything on board.

thanks so much everyone, i will post pictures if i can figure out how soon as i get back to the gym


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## Built (May 16, 2010)

While you're recovering, have a peek at the link in my sig on getting started - you'll see a starting workout you might find helpful since you'll need to get away from isolation movements anyway. 

Keto's the bomb for dropping bodyfat. You doing PSMF after you finish healing?


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## lancs (May 17, 2010)

I will try psmf, how many calories do you recommend i take in? whilst on keto i take in 1400 mainly in protein, never sucessfully had the keto strip change colour but was dropping bodyfat slowly which was good enough for me.

i will read the getting started now. thanks lots


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## Phineas (May 17, 2010)

The lowest of the lows was when I witnessed two guys arm curling in the squat rack...as if that wasn't bad enough, one of the guys was spotting the other


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## ectomorph141 (May 17, 2010)

If you dont have a spotter I would highly recommend "Hack Squats" for legs.  You can lift as much as you want with no spotter at all and it works your legs very well.  

The only thing you would really have to be careful with is your bench. At that point you can either roll the weight down your body to your legs,  or you can slowly let the weight down to one side of the floor to your left or right but thats more dangerous.


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## lancs (May 18, 2010)

ok thanks guys. i find a spotter helpful when im pushin the last rep out and my arm just wont go up that bit further so the little tap on the elbow from the spotter helps....maybe thats something i need to work on now i see lots of people dont use a spotter.

does anyone recommend i do full body workouts for a while whilst im doing the keto diet and getting back into training after my op? im out of training approx 3 weeks been 4 days so far!


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## SilentBob187 (May 18, 2010)

lancs said:


> does anyone recommend i do full body workouts for a while whilst im doing the keto diet and getting back into training after my op? im out of training approx 3 weeks been 4 days so far!



It will certainly help to deplete your glycogen stores quicker all over.  Hope you like being tired. Those two together are a recipe for exhaustion.  And probably some really good recovery too.


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## sgfit (May 20, 2010)

I just glanced over this post, so I hope I'm not repeating. I've been training for 20 years by myself, so I guess it's my specialty, especially after putting on 100 lbs of muscle naturally over these years. 

Spotters are for pushing out the last rep, not avoiding injury. If a muscle is going to pop, doesn't matter if a spotter is there or not, it's gonna pop.

You have to simply overload the muscle to get a reaction, we all know that. I use tons of compound sets and pre-fatiguing. For example, on bench press, I will use weight and reps I can handle on my own. Right after the set, without rest, I jump into a chest exercise where I can reach complete failure, safely....push ups, dumbbell bench, dumbbell flies. 

Muscles don't care how much weight you use, what exercise you use...if they are overloaded in any way, consistently, and you taken in enough protein, you will grow. 

One key point, if you are looking to increase your bench press strength, you are going to have to have a spotter to help you through the plateaus and to push through failure. However, if you are looking for muscular growth, reaching fatigue and failure in any way will do the trick. In fact, the more creative you get, the better success you will have.


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## Phineas (May 20, 2010)

sgfit said:


> I just glanced over this post, so I hope I'm not repeating. I've been training for 20 years by myself, so I guess it's my specialty, especially after putting on 100 lbs of muscle naturally over these years.
> 
> Spotters are for pushing out the last rep, not avoiding injury. If a muscle is going to pop, doesn't matter if a spotter is there or not, it's gonna pop.
> 
> ...



No offense to your 20 years' training experience, but I wouldn't advocate training to failure regularly, let alone as a key training tool. I get your point that it's not necessarily the weight that triggers adaptation, but the forcing the body to work past its comfort level. That's true. 

However, the problem is the body doesn't really want to adapt. The body is designed to survive. Incidentally, large muscles and low BF isn't ideal for survival, as this costs a much greater amount of its resources than would an average body. And so, there are many prevantative functions in the body to help keep things running smoothly and simply. This is where us BB'ers run into one of our biggest enemies: the central nervous system.

Most of us on here are very determined and will push through a hell of a lot of pain to get where we want, but we always do it in a healthy, intelligent manner. If we could, I'm sure a lot of us would go ape-shit and train 6 hours a day. I would love to spend 6 hours a day deadlifting and squatting and benching and doing clean and clean. That would awesome! Unfortunately, the CNS is designed to shut down when things get sketchy, and by sketchy I mean when you train to the point that your muscles' motor units are obliterated (i.e. neurological failure). The problem is that the CNS will inhibit your muscle's force output to keep them from furthering the problem, and that also means being unable to develop new muscular tissue.

Training to failure occassionally on a last set can be a useful tool for not only a shock stimulus but busting plateaus for new PRs, but using this technique regularly just cries out overtraining.

That is, unless you're juicing...

Regarding bench press, busting through a plateau by simply benching until exhaustion is not a wise decision. There is so much more to overcoming plateaus than simply trying to lift more weight. The lifter needs to assess where the problem is and address it specifically. Is it the lockout? Is it the bottom phase? Maybe it's neither but it's actually simply controlling the weight versus fast movements. You can be a lot more strategic than just adding plate after plate.

Also, spotters actually are for safety purposes, hence the name. What good is busting through a plateau if you didn't really lift the weight yourself? If you went from a new 1 RM but the spotter lifted 15% of the load would you be able to call that your 1 RM? Hell no, because you didn't lift it on your own.

The only lifts I think you would really need a spotter on is bench, unless you're doing it in the rack. For instance, I'm doing dead press right now so I'm in the rack and it's part of the lift to lower the BB to the safety bars and set it for 1-2 seconds. Though the BB comes within an inch of my chest I'm in no danger. I ask for someone to help me get the BB back up if I fail on my maximal lift day, but that would be after my reps are completed. Their assistance isn't a rep, it's just racking the BB because I otherwise can't get out of there.

People use spotters to help them lift weight and they try and justify it by saying it's to help them push through difficult reps, but that's a crock of shit. It's because the lifters have major ego problems and are insecure about how strong they actually are. I'd say about 95% of lifters I see doing pullups cheat incredibly bad. If you don't swing with your hips you see just how strong you are. Don't cheat yourself because it will only come back to bite you in the ass.

And, to anyone who does this, I would like to say this now: STOP FUCKING SPOTTING EACH OTHER ON ARM CURLS. YOU DON'T NEED A SPOT ON ARM CURLS.


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## sgfit (May 20, 2010)

Ummmm...wow. Ok...you have a lot of time on your hands. Muscles will only adapt when pushed beyond what they are able to handle...failure. I don't recall ever saying got to failure every day of your life. The initial thread asked how to gain muscle when training by yourself. In order to gain muscle, you have to go to failure...pure and simple. 

Going to failure doesn't cause overtraining...not in the slightest. Going to failure without proper rest causes overtraining. 

I didn't say spotters weren't for safety purposes...you really need to read before you reply. I said that spotters are not for preventing injury. These are two separate separate issues...two very separate things. A spotter will help keep you from getting stuck....safety. A spotter cannot prevent an injury. In fact, you are more likely to get an injury with a spotter, because you are probably dealing with weight you are not used to handling or pushing beyond failure.

And yes, debating with someone that is reading points into my post that are not there is offensive to my 20 years experience, as well as, to my post. 

When I see other guys that are 6'4 and surpassing my 285 lb mark, all without ever juicing the way I have, I'm all ears to how they train, as well. Try it..it works.


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## Phineas (May 20, 2010)

sgfit said:


> Spotters are for pushing out the last rep, not avoiding injury.
> 
> One key point, if you are looking to increase your bench press strength, you are going to have to have a spotter to help you through the plateaus and to push through failure. However, if you are looking for muscular growth, reaching fatigue and failure in any way will do the trick. In fact, the more creative you get, the better success you will have.





sgfit said:


> I don't recall ever saying got to failure every day of your life.
> 
> *Actually, you did.*
> 
> ...



*Well, no it doesn't. I know your type. You're the kind of guy who comes on here and says to every newb "oh to get big you gotta do this and that and always this." You think your answer is the answer, like a stubborn relgious nut. There are so many ways to see progress, and abusing your body to the point that it starts to shut off essential bodily processes as you are suggesting is an archaic mindset.

I'm sorry if you feel offended that someone with less training experience is arguing with you but "experience" doesn't say shit anymore these days. Ever read the Arnold Encyclopedia? He's known as arguably the greatest bodybuilder of all time, and yet his famed "Bible" contains a large amount of information that has since been proven incorrect or inefficient. 

If it wasn't me it would have been someone else to say training to failure is not the way to go.

And, I do ask questions. That's why I'm here. But, I don't just listen blindly to every big guy. I research everything extensively before I put it into practice.

You should try it...it works*


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## sgfit (May 20, 2010)

Actually, not as stubborn as you think. As for being like a religous nut..well, prejudging someone is at the forefront of close-mindedness. 

I'm always open for a good debate. However, you were debating things that I never said. I was just pointing out those inaccuracies.

I wish I could say we could go out and pick daisies to put on pounds of good muscle, but that simply isn't the case.  

In regards to research, my degree is in Exercise Sciences. I've done some good research I would have to say and yes, it does work.

I will totally, 100%, agree with you, bodybuilding is not healthy...if that is what you are getting at. Anything done in excess is going to cause problems. However, the subject matter was how to put on muscle when training by yourself. I simply replied and got thrown under the bus when doing so, with things that I didn't even say.

I never want to push my beliefs on anyone. However, I'm not presenting beliefs. I'm presenting facts that have proven to work for me..that's all. I have a proven formula that puts on muscle..nothing more..take it or leave it. If you are telling me it doesn't work, all I can do is simply disagree with the results I've experienced firsthand.

Plus, putting on muscle is relative. If you are a beginner to intermediate, yes, you don't have to go to failure. Your body is more easily manipulated with less stimuli. If you want to put on muscle after 22 years of 3-5 days a week in the gym, your body is much more stubborn and you do have to get hogwild crazy at times to get a spark.

Have a good day, Phineas, and don't hate! I'm sure you're a cool cat.  I've gotta get some work done.


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## Built (May 20, 2010)

sgfit - a lot of stuff works. For a while. 

I've never trained to failure. Never really saw the point. If it works well for you, go for it. 

My degrees are in research science, not exercise science, but I do know how to read. My understanding of deliberately training to failure is that the CNS figures out pretty fast what you're doing, and hence learns to stop you from pushing that hard, in much the same way as a circuit breaker protects its device.

That being said, it seems to work extraordinarily well for some. You seem to be one of 'em.


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## sgfit (May 20, 2010)

Ya, Built, it's been debated for quite a while. It's worked the entire time I've trained. I understand the line of thought with the CNS adapting, but muscles adapt, as well. I just think that like a muscle, your body adapts to the current workload...it doesn't keep you from adapting to the current workload.

That could be my ignorance speaking, but I think the body is only smart enough to adapt, not smart enough to keep you from adapting.

That being said, it's probably just like politics and religion, the answer lies somewhere in the middle...moderation.

Good debate. Have a good rest of the day!


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## ectomorph141 (May 20, 2010)

Working to failure also works *for me *and so does lifting very heavy weight with low reps. I am ectomorphic so I am not sure if that is one of the main reasons.  As mentioned above it doesnt work for everyone but* I* see excellent results when I fail on my very last set of each exercise.    Especially the heavier exercises. 

example.

bench x 8
bench x 6
bench x 4
bench x failure which is usually around 4

But this is what works for me and only heavy lifting like bench, dead lift, hack squats, and similar heavy exercises.  But I only push my bench to failure if I have a spotter.


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## lancs (May 20, 2010)

so do you recommend high weight low reps to build muscle? i do 3 sets of 15 at the mo, i see definition but maybe i would see better results if i did higher weight with low rep?


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## ectomorph141 (May 21, 2010)

lancs said:


> so do you recommend high weight low reps to build muscle? i do 3 sets of 15 at the mo, i see definition but maybe i would see better results if i did higher weight with low rep?



As I said above, its different for each person.  If you are doing 3 sets try increasing the weight just a little bit until it is something like this. 

bench x 8
bench x 6
bench x 4

Just see how that feels for a few weeks. If that doesnt work try this.

bench x 10
bench x 8
bench x 6

Always keep really good form.  If you cant keep good form then lower the weight and get higher reps.  The workout routine that is effective will be different with each person. You have to experiement and see what works for *YOU*.


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## Gazhole (May 21, 2010)

Being somebody who has had great results on a HIT style program, as well as pretty much every other type of program i've ever done, i can honestly say that so long as the program is sound anything can work. There is absolutely no "best" program out there. Such a thing simply cannot exist.

The reason regular failure sets don't work is because they're usually in the context of a program not designed to include failure training. When you are overloading with volume and frequency (typical training programs are 20-30 sets a session, 3-5 days a week) going to failure is just a stress that your already overloaded body cant take.

The ONLY reason HIT training actually works is because you are doing less than half the volume of a "regular" training program, and there are usually at least 3 days between training sessions. Not to mention that every rep is done with a vastly slowed tempo, so that cheating to go beyond failure is almost impossible to do by accident. If every rep is taking about 10 seconds to complete, you have plenty of time to concentrate on perfect form, and you can see failure coming a mile away.

I'm doing a HIT program now, and seeing some great results from it (as i always do) but only because every other variable in the program has been compensated for to make way for the massive stress that this sort of failure training puts on the nervous system.

Does failure work? Yes - but only if you build the program around it. Is it necessary? HELL NO. In fact for some people its pointless, counterproductive, and dangerous.

Progressive overload, variation, and being inventive are second only to hard work and self belief in achieving any goal.


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## Phineas (May 21, 2010)

God damnit Gaz, I still can't rep you.


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## sgfit (May 21, 2010)

Ya, I think where we are all missing each other is that our goals are obviously very different. I checked out everyone's profiles and I didn't see one person commenting on this post that is at or near their genetic peak, putting on the absolute maximum amount of muscle they can. 

My goal when I started was to maximize muscle mass. I wanted to see how far I could take it, naturally. Like any sport, you have the ones that like to take things to the extreme.

With that in mind, ya, I totally agree, training to failure isn't necessary for the recreational bodybuilder. As you guys get bigger and your body builds more tolerance to training overall and want to still put on muscle, you might...keep in mind, I said "might"...agree with me.  Time will only be to tell, but I've been down your road already.


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## Phineas (May 21, 2010)

sgfit said:


> Ya, I think where we are all missing each other is that our goals are obviously very different. I checked out everyone's profiles and I didn't see one person commenting on this post that is at or near their genetic peak, putting on the absolute maximum amount of muscle they can.
> 
> My goal when I started was to maximize muscle mass. I wanted to see how far I could take it, naturally. Like any sport, you have the ones that like to take things to the extreme.
> 
> With that in mind, ya, I totally agree, training to failure isn't necessary for the recreational bodybuilder. As you guys get bigger and your body builds more tolerance to training overall and want to still put on muscle, you might...keep in mind, I said "might"...agree with me.  Time will only be to tell, but I've been down your road already.



Look, if failure works for you then all the best to you because I wish I could train volume to failure. I would love that. I don't think you understand why I lashed out at you earlier.

I'm not disputing that it worked for you. Some people are genetically lucky and can get away with failure training. However, to the majority of the population common exercise physiology knowledge now tells us that the CNS is designed to shut off certain functions once it is pushed into a certain discomfort zone. It's a precautionary measure to keep you from fucking up your own body.

This method of training can work for some, but please realize that if it truly works for you then you're of a minority, because for most people this would be highly counterproductive and likely lead to injury or mental burnout.

I just get bothered when people suggest their specific training ideas to others, without offering potential drawbacks or acknowledging individual strengths/weaknesses/preferences/etc.

For instance, a lot of members ask about periodization. I'll give an example of a program with linear periodization, complete with intensities, rep ranges, rest intervals, etc. However, I always stress that it's only an example, and that they should do their own research and put together something for themselves. 

Following someone else's ideas blindly is foolish. There's nothign wrong with trying modest programs if you actually understand the rationale behind them, but something extreme like failure training is a whole different ball game. That's a form of training that intentionally beats your body to shit. Some people can recover from it but most can't. And so, I feel it's not something to advocate for lifters who don't understand it and will likely abuse it to their ill-health.


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## Phineas (May 21, 2010)

sgfit said:


> Ya, I think where we are all missing each other is that our goals are obviously very different. I checked out everyone's profiles and I didn't see one person commenting on this post that is at or near their genetic peak, putting on the absolute maximum amount of muscle they can.
> 
> My goal when I started was to maximize muscle mass. I wanted to see how far I could take it, naturally. Like any sport, you have the ones that like to take things to the extreme.
> 
> With that in mind, ya, I totally agree, training to failure isn't necessary for the recreational bodybuilder. As you guys get bigger and your body builds more tolerance to training overall and want to still put on muscle, you might...keep in mind, I said "might"...agree with me.  Time will only be to tell, but I've been down your road already.



Also, how do you determine genetic peak? I realize many people claim 28 to be the peak for many sports, but in this sport I think there's gray area. By some logic the peak would be your teens, at which point you're practically driven by pure testosterone. You cant use our age to determine our drive for this sport. Frank Zane is a senior now, but probably trains smarter and harder than many 20 year olds. Obviously he's not at his genetic peak, but what does that have to do with how hard he trains?

Also, I don't like that you implied to me and/or others that we're recreational BB'ers. I think if you come to this forum and seek research like we do we're passed the point of recreational. 

Also, training to failure isn't necessary for anyone -- not even guys on gear. It's one of countless training variables that, just like all the other variables, can work for some. There is no golden ticket to results. 

Nothing is essential, and everything is an option.


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## Phineas (May 21, 2010)

Phineas said:


> Nothing is essential, and everything is an option.




Except for curling and shrugging in the squat rack. Just leave.


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## sgfit (May 21, 2010)

"Nothing is essential, and everything is an option."

Then why discount failure training?

Genetic peak is a relative term. You may never be able to achieve it, as it becomes exponentially harder to reach with every pound of muscle you put on. All I was saying with "recreational" is that the people discounting failure training on this post still have a long way to go to achieve their genetic peak (if that's what they are looking to do) and as you get closer to it, you are going to have to pull more tricks out of the hat...failure training being one of them.

The only reason someone would burn out or injure themselves is lack of adequate recovery, or poor lifting form. Failure training doesn't have to mean heavy weight or overtraining, does it?

I wouldn't say that just because someone hops on a forum to read up on bodybuilding, puts them beyond "recreational". Forums attract a lot of beginners looking for information. To me, it's based on results. If you are saying your training method is better, but do not have the results to prove it, then yes, I'm going to have to term it "recreational", "beginner" or "intermediate", until the results are there. I'm not saying the results won't be there, because you are young and have tons of training years ahead. It's just hard for me to discount my training methods with, what I feel are awesome results, better than 99% of the people out there who train naturally like I have done.

Plus, the thing is, I totally understand your method may work great for you. It worked for me too when I was younger and I had more testosterone flowing. I didn't always train to failure, but noticed much better results when doing so. However, I'm more inclined to think after dealing with the human body for 20 plus years that the combination of the two methods, plus every other freakin' method out there, is the best approach of them all, so we are just arguing over nothing....other than telling me failure training doesn't work when I have shown it to work...when done properly.

My personal genetic peak definition: Eating around the clock and not able to get over 285 lbs, combined with maxing out workouts and recovery time. It got to a point where it wasn't fun anymore, so I said I have reached my goal. My original goal was originally 245 lbs when I weighed 165 lbs at 6'3, 17 years old. Hitting 285 at 39 and now slowing things down, because I don't have the time or the will to maintain size like that.

One of the major flaws with human nature, we don't listen to those that have been there, our elders. We all have to experience our lessons firsthand. You tell your child, "the stove is hot, the stove is hot, the stove is hot". What do they do? They have to touch it to believe it.

Go get it.


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## Phineas (May 22, 2010)

sgfit said:


> "Nothing is essential, and everything is an option."
> 
> Then why discount failure training?
> 
> ...



Yes, failure training is an option, and for some (like yourself) it works. My argument was that it's not the wisest decision to advocate a training style that for the general population is likely to be counterproductive. Everyone's genes are different, and everyone sees results differently. However, in most cases failure training is damaging to the CNS. If it worked for you well congratulations, this doesn't make it the best training style. For others they have tried "everything" and maybe found HIT worked best, or high reps low intensity, or supersetting, or volume training, or block training, or power training, or westside, etc. But, these people can't generalize and say "because I had the most success with this program it is therefore the best for everyone". This is especially true with extreme training styles such as the one you're promoting.

Take famous drug addicts like Steven Tyler of Aerosmith. He was fucking himself up on heavy drugs for over a decade, and came out of it healthy (relatively, at least). Some people OD on their first use of a heavy drug and die. How the hell did he survive daily abuse of what should have killed him countless times? He's just lucky. Sometimes the body can surprise. For the majority of the population, heavy drugs is extremely damaging and often fatal. Everyone's physiological responses are unique. The same goes to something extreme like training your muscles to the point that your CNS begins to actually shut off muscular function. Does that actually sound healthy to you? I realize that it's worked for you, but do you honestly think that just because you've managed to work with it that it's a good idea to claim it's solid gold? You're just one of the few lucky people who can get away with this.

Suggesting extreme ideas to new lifters is dangerous, because (a) they're very likely to misuse and abuse the ideas and (b) they're probably not built to handle them. There's a reason the CNS shuts off muscular function at the point of failure: your body doesn't want it! It's saying "this is too fucking much so stop it or I'll stop you". Some people can overcome their CNS, but most can't. 

Get over yourself. I know you're more "experienced" than me and older than me. Also, I know you've had success with failure training. Again, I commend you for that. I wish I could train to failure, but my inability to train that way is not because I haven't reached my "genetic peak" or that I'm "recreational". I've employed many highly advanced training programs, and I've seen steady gains since I first walked in the gym. The reason I don't/can't train to failure consistently is because IT'S NOT GOOD FOR THE BODY.

I see guys training poorly all the time yet they gain. It's not as though gains are impossible with improper and/or dangerous training. It's just that deep down there are potential issues, and you don't always notice them. The guy who deadlifts with the rounded back doesn't necessarily feel spine pain all the time. He might feel fine after a session, but that doesn't mean he isn't inflicting damage underneath it all.


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## Built (May 22, 2010)

sgfit said:


> Ya, I think where we are all missing each other is that our goals are obviously very different. I checked out everyone's profiles and I didn't see one person commenting on this post that is at or near their genetic peak, putting on the absolute maximum amount of muscle they can.
> 
> My goal when I started was to maximize muscle mass. I wanted to see how far I could take it, naturally. Like any sport, you have the ones that like to take things to the extreme.


You just described all of us, my friend. Nobody joins here with an introductory post that says "yep, just joined a gym, and I want a program that won't really work very well, since I only want modest gains"

We all want the most gain with the least work. Some of us intend to go farther right from the onset, but we all want the best method. 

We soon discover everything works, but nothing works forever


sgfit said:


> With that in mind, ya, I totally agree, training to failure isn't necessary for the recreational bodybuilder. As you guys get bigger and your body builds more tolerance to training overall and want to still put on muscle, you might...keep in mind, I said "might"...agree with me.  Time will only be to tell, but I've been down your road already.


So you're not a recreational BB then - you're a competitive pro BB? 

PIX PLEASE! 



Phineas said:


> Yes, failure training is an option, and for some (like yourself) it works. My argument was that it's not the wisest decision to advocate a training style that for the general population is likely to be counterproductive. Everyone's genes are different, and everyone sees results differently. However, in most cases failure training is damaging to the CNS. If it worked for you well congratulations, this doesn't make it the best training style. For others they have tried "everything" and maybe found HIT worked best, or high reps low intensity, or supersetting, or volume training, or block training, or power training, or westside, etc. But, these people can't generalize and say "because I had the most success with this program it is therefore the best for everyone". This is especially true with extreme training styles such as the one you're promoting.
> 
> Take famous drug addicts like Steven Tyler of Aerosmith. He was fucking himself up on heavy drugs for over a decade, and came out of it healthy (relatively, at least). Some people OD on their first use of a heavy drug and die. How the hell did he survive daily abuse of what should have killed him countless times? He's just lucky. Sometimes the body can surprise. For the majority of the population, heavy drugs is extremely damaging and often fatal. Everyone's physiological responses are unique. The same goes to something extreme like training your muscles to the point that your CNS begins to actually shut off muscular function. Does that actually sound healthy to you? I realize that it's worked for you, but do you honestly think that just because you've managed to work with it that it's a good idea to claim it's solid gold? You're just one of the few lucky people who can get away with this.
> 
> ...


Phineas, I'll try again: Deliberately training to failure is perfectly fine for almost everyone to do sometimes - and for some to do all of the time. 

Some folks always train the same way and it works great. The rest of us can't be one-trick ponies and need more strategy to keep our gains - _recreational _or otherwise - going.


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## sassy69 (May 22, 2010)

I've spent most of my nearly 30 yrs of lifting w/o a spotter. I've incorporated machines as well as free weights. I have tended to lift in the range of 12-15 reps. I use this as a gauge, where I can lift to 12-15 w/ clean reps, I'll increase to the next weight up. If I can't do 6-8 good reps, then I'll drop the weight back so I'm not tempted to get sloppy. If I can lift in the range of 8-12, then I'll consider that a tight set and the NEXT training week, I'll expect to be able to get up 12-15. If I can do this, then I'll go up. If I am not able to get past teh 6-8 and up to the 10 reps, I'll look for a spot on the last rep or two. Chances are on the next cycle of training, I will be able to do that next weight by myself. 

I find spots to be not so much about using someone else so I avoid injury, but rather to help me push beyond where I stall. This primarily is like getting a little support on the transition at the negative of a rep, i.e. the weakest point. I don't really consider this as completely training to failure, but rather to get past a point that is just beyond where I can go to. If I seriously can't get past there, then its just a good indicator that I should stay at the lower weight and work on my form. There are other ways to work on strength in terms of slower reps, better or tighter reps, better explosion, etc at a weight that I can handle. 

From all of the discussion above, I just consider a spot as something that can support one particular phase of my training where I'm stuck. I don't always train to failure and I don't always judge "progress" by whether or not I lifted "fucking heavy".

To the OP, I think you don't need a spotter to improve. I think rather you might look at other approaches to lifting other than your 3 sets of 15. There are many ways to "progress". Especially if you are coming back from surgery ... work back to making sure you have full range of motion, your form is tight and you are feeling strong, you are sleeping well (good recovery). You can rely on machines or supported lifts (e.g. smith machine, hack squat) to help you when you are limited w/ the free weights.


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## cxpharm (May 24, 2010)

Someone should be willing to help a lady out in need . 

Realistically though, keep the weight low and know your limits, work your way up as you feel fit.


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