# Prolactin Gyno or good ol' fashion Estro?



## thapr3dat0r (Feb 10, 2011)

First off, my cycle:

6 weeks
Dbol: 40mg/day (First 3 weeks only, Winny the next 3 weeks)
Prop: 150mg/eod
NPP: 100mg/eod

Some background:

I consider my self pretty gyno sensitive, I've had the surgery, refuse to get gyno ever again. I've done many cycles of designer orals such as Epi, Superdrol, Halodrol, Tren etc. I've done one prior inj. cycle of Test-E at 500mg/week for 12 weeks kicked off with 20mg of Mdrol for the first 4 weeks. No gyno problems with that cycle. Never taken Deca or Dbol before this cycle.

Currently, I'm toward the end of week 3 of my cycle and have been starting to get sore nips. Ok, I'm prepared for this. Started taking Arimidex at .5mg/eod. Damn, doesn't seem to help. Bumped it up to 1mg/eod. Still some slight pain and sensitivity to the touch. I also think there is some swelling and puffiness. Shit. Bumped it up again to 1mg/day. Seems to be helping slightly but at this rate I'm gonna run out of Arimidex soon. So I've also thrown in Nolva at 20mg/day. Nolva in the AM, Adex in the PM. I'm pretty sure it's legit stuff as they are pill form from Ax/Naps. I just ordered some Letro and Caber research chems. 

So I guess my question is, am I experiencing prolactin gyno from the NPP or is it just really high estrogen? My sex drive is high as ever and I don't have any leakage from my nips so I'm not convinced it's prolactin. But I got Caber anyway, just in case. Any suggestions or ideas? I think I'm gonna run a low dose of Letro and see what happens when I get off the Dbol and move onto Winny next week. That should narrow down some possibilities.


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## SloppyJ (Feb 10, 2011)

Your problem is you didn't do your research. 19nor's and Nolva should never be mixed.

I believe your problem to be the NPP since adex isn't helping. The adex will just help the estrogen in your body but if taken early enough it should help with the prog. gyno. I will let someone else chime in on that issue since I'm not well versed in prolactin/progestrone induced gyno. But you need to start some letro and/or caber now!


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## GMO (Feb 11, 2011)

thapr3dat0r said:


> First off, my cycle:
> 
> 6 weeks
> Dbol: 40mg/day (First 3 weeks only, Winny the next 3 weeks)
> ...



Nolva + Deca = Bad idea

You need to start the Letro immediately and hope that takes care of the problem.


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## Crank (Feb 11, 2011)

yup. personal experience is letro = the shit for gyno issues


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## BGOTTIR (Feb 11, 2011)

Why can't you mix nolva and 19-nors? And I have done plenty of research, but you can't know everything about everything, right?


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## thapr3dat0r (Feb 11, 2011)

Yeah, ya know, you guys are absolutely right about Nolva and progestins. Nolva upregulates the progesterone receptors. I knew that. I don't know WTF I was thinking. I was just in a frantic rush to alleviate this gyno flare up I threw the kitchen sink at it. Thanks for pulling my head out of my ass. 

Ok, another theory I want to mention is that if estrogen is minimized, progesterone/prolactin will also be minimized. Something like progesterone cannot proliferate without high levels of estrogen. So some would say that caber is not necessary as estrogen control via an AI would kill both birds with one stone. I know this was a belief at one point. Is this dated bro science?


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## SloppyJ (Feb 11, 2011)

thapr3dat0r said:


> Yeah, ya know, you guys are absolutely right about Nolva and progestins. Nolva upregulates the progesterone receptors. I knew that. I don't know WTF I was thinking. I was just in a frantic rush to alleviate this gyno flare up I threw the kitchen sink at it. Thanks for pulling my head out of my ass.
> 
> Ok, another theory I want to mention is that if estrogen is minimized, progesterone/prolactin will also be minimized. Something like progesterone cannot proliferate without high levels of estrogen. So some would say that caber is not necessary as estrogen control via an AI would kill both birds with one stone. I know this was a belief at one point. Is this dated bro science?


 

I believe that's still the latest that is going around. But since you're past the point that a standard AI would help, you need to asap some caber.


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## Life (Feb 11, 2011)

Caber or prami is nice for their good sides (Libido and multiple orgasmssss) and also help with progesterone. But you won't have progesterone issues w/o excess estrogen..


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## thapr3dat0r (Feb 11, 2011)

Ok, my plan of action is as follows: Terminate the Nolva effective immediately and continue with Adex at 1mg/day. When my chems come in, I will stop the Adex and run the Caber at .5mg/day and the Letro at 1.25mg/day. When the nip symptoms start to reduce I will go to an eod dosing schedule and probably lower the Letro dose to .625 (or whatever a quarter of a ml gives me). How does this look?


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## BigBlackGuy (Feb 11, 2011)

Check out this article, 16 ways to defeat Gyno.  It may have been referenced here before but it's a pretty decent guide to fighting gyno.


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## Diesel618 (Feb 12, 2011)

Did you say you've had the surgery? Wouldn't that mean it couldn't be estrogen related? I think taking arimidex and letro is gonna be a waste of money. I may be wrong.


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## BigBlackGuy (Feb 12, 2011)

Diesel618 said:


> Did you say you've had the surgery? Wouldn't that mean it couldn't be estrogen related? I think taking arimidex and letro is gonna be a waste of money. I may be wrong.



Why would it not be estro related if he had the surgery?  I'm just curious, I've never heard that before.


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## thapr3dat0r (Feb 13, 2011)

Diesel618 said:


> Did you say you've had the surgery? Wouldn't that mean it couldn't be estrogen related? I think taking arimidex and letro is gonna be a waste of money. I may be wrong.



Yeah I got the surgery done after several attempts of Nolva and Letro cycles failed to get rid of it. I believe it was pubertal gyno that was exacerbated by designer oral cycles, especially the first one which was Mdrol with no SERM for PCT. Stupid, I know. I was ignorant and listened to bro-idiots I worked with. I got the surgery for free so hell I took advantage of it. 

So when they do the surgery they leave some of the breast tissue in there so you look normal and your nipple doesn't collapse and cave-in. This breast tissue they leave in there is still susceptible to estrogen and can grow and give you gyno again. The surgery fixes it but it can always come back, as far as I understand. And I can feel it too. It can definitely come back.


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## thapr3dat0r (Feb 13, 2011)

BigBlackGuy said:


> Check out this article, 16 ways to defeat Gyno.  It may have been referenced here before but it's a pretty decent guide to fighting gyno.



I haven't seen this one. Good read, thanks.


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## thapr3dat0r (Feb 13, 2011)

Ok, I got my Letro and Caber. Man that was fast. Wish I could get some gear that fast, I'd run this cycle for another couple weeks. That is, if I get my nips right.

Anyway, any feedback on the dosing I posted above? I'd like to be especially cautious with the Caber.


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## bikeswimlive (Feb 13, 2011)

thapr3dat0r said:


> I haven't seen this one. Good read, thanks.



I just gave that a read as well. Pretty informative.


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## thapr3dat0r (Feb 15, 2011)

bikeswimlive said:


> I just gave that a read as well. Pretty informative.



Yeah but I'm not too sure about recommending against SERMs and AIs. Sorry, but I'm not taking any chances with bitch tits on OTC supplements. Adex wasn't enough to control my estro on this cycle. Is some OTC supplement? Is avoiding caffeine and forskolin and increasing my intake of fiber gonna prevent gyno? I don't think so.


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## MDR (Feb 15, 2011)

thapr3dat0r said:


> Ok, I got my Letro and Caber. Man that was fast. Wish I could get some gear that fast, I'd run this cycle for another couple weeks. That is, if I get my nips right.
> 
> Anyway, any feedback on the dosing I posted above? I'd like to be especially cautious with the Caber.



I would suggest starting low and using more if you need it.  .5 per week split into two doses on Monday and Thursday is what I started with. Kinda have to find your own sweet spot, and potency can vary greatly.


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## Diesel618 (Feb 16, 2011)

thapr3dat0r said:


> Yeah I got the surgery done after several attempts of Nolva and Letro cycles failed to get rid of it. I believe it was pubertal gyno that was exacerbated by designer oral cycles, especially the first one which was Mdrol with no SERM for PCT. Stupid, I know. I was ignorant and listened to bro-idiots I worked with. I got the surgery for free so hell I took advantage of it.
> 
> So when they do the surgery they leave some of the breast tissue in there so you look normal and your nipple doesn't collapse and cave-in. This breast tissue they leave in there is still susceptible to estrogen and can grow and give you gyno again. The surgery fixes it but it can always come back, as far as I understand. And I can feel it too. It can definitely come back.


 
gotcha. never talked to anyone who has had it, but I just remember hearing somewhere that once you got the surgery you were in the clear forever. My bad, thanks for clearing that up for me. I had the same problem when I was younger, thought I was invincible and could run as many PH cycles as I wanted til I started to notice some gyno. Luckily I came to my senses and killed it with letro and got much more conservative about cycling after that point. I wish you the best of luck with this though.


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## ryansm (Feb 16, 2011)

BigBlackGuy said:


> Check out this article, 16 ways to defeat Gyno.  It may have been referenced here before but it's a pretty decent guide to fighting gyno.



DHT and some of its derivatives I find more useful than an AI^^^Article is a good read.


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## thapr3dat0r (Feb 16, 2011)

Diesel618 said:


> gotcha. never talked to anyone who has had it, but I just remember hearing somewhere that once you got the surgery you were in the clear forever. My bad, thanks for clearing that up for me. I had the same problem when I was younger, thought I was invincible and could run as many PH cycles as I wanted til I started to notice some gyno. Luckily I came to my senses and killed it with letro and got much more conservative about cycling after that point. I wish you the best of luck with this though.



No prob, bro. Yeah, I think that's a common misconception. Glad you caught it before it got too bad. Thanks for the good wishes

Seems to be getting better. Maybe it was the Dbol (since Ive moved on to Winny), maybe the letro and caber are doing there thing. Maybe all of the above. The nips are still kind of sensitive tho. I'm dosing the Letro at 1.25mg/day and the caber .25mg/eod. I have a bad feeling they're underdosed, but it's too early to tell for sure.


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## papaaj (Feb 16, 2011)

A lot of good info in this thread. I learned some good things, thanks everyone who put in some info.


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## Diesel618 (Feb 17, 2011)

ryansm said:


> DHT and some of its derivatives I find more useful than an AI^^^Article is a good read.


 
Would you consider Superdrol one of those derivatives? I know number 5 in that article says it cannot directly inhibit gyno since it cant convert to actual DHT, but I know it has an extremely high binding affinity for the AR. Just curious.


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## XYZ (Feb 17, 2011)

Get yourself some pramipexole ASAP.  It's much better for progestin gyno than cabergoline is.  Good luck.


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## ryansm (Feb 17, 2011)

Diesel618 said:


> Would you consider Superdrol one of those derivatives? I know number 5 in that article says it cannot directly inhibit gyno since it cant convert to actual DHT, but I know it has an extremely high binding affinity for the AR. Just curious.



No not at all, in fact some users have reported delayed onset gyno. Now some of that can be attributed to poor PCT's, but I have seen feedback from some knowledgeable vets that also had this issue.


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## thapr3dat0r (Feb 17, 2011)

ryansm said:


> No not at all, in fact some users have reported delayed onset gyno. Now some of that can be attributed to poor PCT's, but I have seen feedback from some knowledgeable vets that also had this issue.



Yup, exactly. I believe I ran into that problem. Mostly because of poor PCT. Just because SD doesn't aromatize, doesn't mean it can't give you gyno.


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## thapr3dat0r (Feb 17, 2011)

CT said:


> Get yourself some pramipexole ASAP.  It's much better for progestin gyno than cabergoline is.  Good luck.



Hmm, I don't think I've heard of it. Can't see it at any of my current sources. I'll look around. Thanks for the advice


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## G3 (Feb 17, 2011)

CT said:


> Get yourself some pramipexole ASAP. It's much better for progestin gyno than cabergoline is. Good luck.


 

Thanks CT. I've been wondering which of the two to keep on hand when I do my next cycle and try NPP for the first time.


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## thapr3dat0r (Feb 17, 2011)

Found some. I will definitely have this on-hand when I run Tren for my next cutting cycle. Kinda afraid and excited about it at the same time


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## thapr3dat0r (Feb 17, 2011)

I found a very interesting bit of info on another board. This is from NPCKnight, props and all credit to him for this: 

"It has become increasingly apparent to me that Arimidex may be a  sub par choice for an anti-e when compared to Aromasin. Arimidex from what I gather can fall short when it comes to E2 levels  and also effect your cholesterol levels. Aromasin has also shown to  lower SHBG which could infact increase test levels.

The following is excerpts from a doctor/forum member named  Macro/Macrophage69alpha at a couple other respectable boards on Arimidex  vs Aromasin:
*Aromasin is generally much better tolerated and more effective (suppression profile wise) as compared to arimidex. 
*dex is not particularly effective for drugs that tend to be subject to  peripheral aromatization, methandrostanolone (dbol) in particular. often a full  2mg daily of dex will still not stop dbol bloat and cramping.

aromasin on the other hand is very effective peripherally, highly suppressing what is generally E2 conversion.

arimidex is best at E1 suppression (tissue affinity, gonadal, adrenal,  etc and because its a competitive inhibitor). it suppress e1 at even the  lowest of doses, but takes rather high doses to see significant impact  on peripheral aromatase (which if you have "issues" is generally where  it is).

general reccomendation is aromasin as a base for most aromatic cycles  with LETROZOLE on hand. Generally also reccomend a dopaminergic, at  least on hand, cabaser tablets or pramipexole (liquid or tabs).  prolactin is as involved in gynecomastia and testosterone suppression as  estrogen."

And then about Caber/Prami....

"Cabaser/Cabergoline has also been a popular choice as of late to fight  off prolactin sides(in many users who use Nandrolone or Tren..possibly  Anadrol as well). In reading, I have found that there may be a new item  you guys might want to look into that very well may be superior. It is  called Pramipexole."

This could very well explain why Adex may not have been working for my gyno  issues, especially while on Dbol. That and the lack of a prolactin  antagonist for the Deca. Hmmm....


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## thapr3dat0r (Feb 17, 2011)

Also, apparently there are claims that Prami can raise GH in healthy people by 400%.


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## Guidedbyscience (Feb 27, 2011)

well before hand you could have supplemented with some vitamin b-5 AND L-dopa to help with the prolactin sides as you are prone to.As of now it really would not help greatly/

with the estrogen,you know the deal already.


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## thapr3dat0r (Feb 27, 2011)

Guidedbyscience said:


> well before hand you could have supplemented with some vitamin b-5 AND L-dopa to help with the prolactin sides as you are prone to.As of now it really would not help greatly/
> 
> with the estrogen,you know the deal already.



Is it b5 or b6? I always thought it was b6/p5p.


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## Repo (Feb 27, 2011)

BigBlackGuy said:


> Check out this article, 16 ways to defeat Gyno.  It may have been referenced here before but it's a pretty decent guide to fighting gyno.



Nice reference!


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