# Steroids?



## jason_ (Sep 9, 2011)

I didnt want to ask this in anabolic zone because probably everyone will say its okay, but i just started working out last month, and my brother has been like like 2 years and looks really good, but there are 2 kids that are 16 at my school with huge arms, but he knows they both use steroids, and he doesnt, and he says he would never, but heres the thing, are steroids that bad for you? the 16 year old kid can bench like 3 plates, and the other kid hasnt been working out long at all, they can just lift a shitload of weights, but how bad are steroids for you


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## Bonesaw (Sep 9, 2011)

very bad at that age.  not for kids or people new to lifting


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## spark (Sep 9, 2011)

Very bad.  I started when I was 20, I am now 35.  I currently am prescribed steroids to keep my hormone levels LEVELED OFF TO NORMAL.  Will you grow yes, when you get older will you look good yes, when you get older due to steroid abuse will u suffer yes.  Anyone who has used them at a young age, 16-22 will tell you not to use them if they are 30 and older.  I have had both knees fixed, right shoulder fixed twice, double hernia surgery and I need knee replacements they say before I am 40-45 years old.

Now, again when your body matures and your hormones have settled down.  I dont think anyoNe on this board will tell you they dont work. Their is a price everyone pays, you may not know it but you will pay a price.  Oh did i tell you my heart is enlarged, I have high cholesterol.  I am on blood pressure meds, cholesterol meds and pain meds til the day I die.  So if any 16 year old want to end up like me.  I am 34 years old, my doctors say I have the body (meaning tendons. Ligaments and joints) of an 80 year old.  Help yourself, I am against them for anyone your age bro.  Until your much older and you mentally can assess the situation you are putting your body in. Do NOT USE STEROIDS.


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## bigdtrain (Sep 9, 2011)

way to f u c k i n young, period. your not even done developing. been proven that at young ages like that have much higher negative effect in life


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## x~factor (Sep 9, 2011)

jason_ said:


> the 16 year old kid can bench like 3 plates, and the other kid hasnt been working out long at all, they can just lift a shitload of weights


Could it be that those kids are just strong naturally and not necessarily on steroids? I know this one kid at the gym that he doesn't look like he has 6 months of training under his belt but he could bench 225 lbs with EASE. I swear this kid is around 140, maybe 150 lbs tops! Some guys are just born strong.


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## ecot3c inside (Sep 9, 2011)

those are the kids that will be bald and fat by age 23.


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## Gazhole (Sep 10, 2011)

Don't even think about it, seriously. You don't need it, they will pay for it in a few years, you'll end up better off.

If you want to beat them in the long run learn how to train properly, and learn all there is to know about diet management. Get the drop on them - do it properly now and when you're in your mid 20's you'll be fucking laughing.

Wish when i started at 16 i'd stopped fucking around with pointless arms routines and blender-bomb shakes and just focused on deadlifts and squats.


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## Merkaba (Sep 10, 2011)

Gazhole said:


> Don't even think about it, seriously. You don't need it, they will pay for it in a few years, you'll end up better off.
> 
> If you want to beat them in the long run learn how to train properly, and learn all there is to know about diet management. Get the drop on them - do it properly now and when you're in your mid 20's you'll be fucking laughing.
> 
> Wish when i started at 16 i'd stopped fucking around with pointless arms routines and blender-bomb shakes and just focused on deadlifts and squats.



The usual Gold...from Gazhole...

Hey that rhymes...every time
I was a poet and didn't know it...
ok corny...bye


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## Kenny Croxdale (Sep 10, 2011)

spark said:


> Very bad.  I started when I was 20, I am now 35.  I currently am prescribed steroids to keep my hormone levels LEVELED OFF TO NORMAL.  Will you grow yes, when you get older will you look good yes, when you get older due to steroid abuse will u suffer yes.  Anyone who has used them at a young age, 16-22 will tell you not to use them if they are 30 and older.  I have had both knees fixed, right shoulder fixed twice, double hernia surgery and I need knee replacements they say before I am 40-45 years old.
> 
> Now, again when your body matures and your hormones have settled down.  I dont think anyoNe on this board will tell you they dont work. Their is a price everyone pays, you may not know it but you will pay a price.  Oh did i tell you my heart is enlarged, I have high cholesterol.  I am on blood pressure meds, cholesterol meds and pain meds til the day I die.  So if any 16 year old want to end up like me.  I am 34 years old, my doctors say I have the body (meaning tendons. Ligaments and joints) of an 80 year old.  Help yourself, I am against them for anyone your age bro.  Until your much older and you mentally can assess the situation you are putting your body in. Do NOT USE STEROIDS.



As you and everyone else has stated, no teen should use steriods.  

*Misinformation About Steriods*

Unfortunately, not all of you maladies can be attributed to steriod use.  

There continue to be myths and misinformation spread on steriods by individuals like yourself.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## duro78 (Sep 11, 2011)

kids nowadays have absolutely noooooo work ethic. You produce more than enough test at your age to make substantial gains. Eat eat and eat some more but most of all be patient.


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## ANIMALHAUS (Sep 12, 2011)

Sounds like typical high school drama & BS. Just because a kid can lift heavy he has to be on steroids? 

Eat some fucking food, get plenty of rest and train hard!


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## Kenny Croxdale (Sep 12, 2011)

*How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is*



duro78 said:


> kids nowadays have absolutely noooooo work ethic.



*Ironical Statement*

That every generation has stated kids have no work ethic.    

They said it about your generation and mine.

*Shakespear*

"How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is To have a thankless child!"

Kenny Croxdale


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## juggernaut (Sep 12, 2011)

bigdtrain said:


> way to f u c k i n young, period. your not even done developing. been proven that at young ages like that have much higher negative effect in life



this.


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## juggernaut (Sep 12, 2011)

Gazhole said:


> Don't even think about it, seriously. You don't need it, they will pay for it in a few years, you'll end up better off.
> 
> If you want to beat them in the long run learn how to train properly, and learn all there is to know about diet management. Get the drop on them - do it properly now and when you're in your mid 20's you'll be fucking laughing.
> 
> Wish when i started at 16 i'd stopped fucking around with pointless arms routines and blender-bomb shakes and just focused on deadlifts and squats.



Tell him to read Bulking for Idiots Part 1 & 2. 

Seriously OP, not a great idea.


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## GMO (Sep 12, 2011)

Those 16 year-olds on juice are going to be paying for it when they are older.  Don't fall into the same trap...


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## ANIMALHAUS (Sep 12, 2011)

All I thought about was pussy, beer, and going sideways in 2nd gear when I was 16, definitely not needles. lol.


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## Arnold (Sep 12, 2011)

jason_ said:


> I didnt want to ask this in anabolic zone because probably everyone will say its okay, but i just started working out last month, and my brother has been like like 2 years and looks really good, but there are 2 kids that are 16 at my school with huge arms, but he knows they both use steroids, and he doesnt, and he says he would never, but heres the thing, are steroids that bad for you? the 16 year old kid can bench like 3 plates, and the other kid hasnt been working out long at all, they can just lift a shitload of weights, but how bad are steroids for you



Actually you would have received the same response in the Anabolic Zone forum. 

I don't think there is 1 member here that would condone a teenager using AAS, very bad idea.

AAS are not bad for you if you're an adult using them in a responsible way. If you're a teen they can fuck up your endocrine system badly and possibly permanently, as well as stunt your growth by causing a premature closing of the growth plates.


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## the_warchief (Sep 12, 2011)

IMO sounds like typical people that use steroids just to look good. If your a bodybuilder then go at it. 16 is Wayy too young though, I dont know what he was thinking. He must have not talked to anyone about it because anyone would tell him thats a shitty idea


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## Captn'stabbin (Sep 12, 2011)

Honestly i run into all the big kids from high school and they are all small now, mostly balding and more stressed out than could possibly be imagined. 

Put your time in and get the diet thing right. Training is the easiest part, weight doesn't mean shit unless your powerlifting...


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## jtterrible (Sep 12, 2011)

you're in luck  Midgard Labs came through for you.. see my sig


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## LightBearer (Sep 13, 2011)

just laugh at thoes kids, they wont grow any taller, and if they continue to lift weights theyll be cycling for the rest of their lives bc they destroyed their endocrine system


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## juggernaut (Sep 13, 2011)

jtterrible said:


> you're in luck  Midgard Labs came through for you.. see my sig


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## Pika (Sep 13, 2011)

Arnold use them at 14 right ? Look listen to these guys man 21 and above you must be lifting for atleast 2 years or yulr dum! .


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## Gazhole (Sep 13, 2011)

Just a nice aside, a friend of mine who's a natural bodybuilder entered a non-tested show recently as a warmup to the British natural comp he's been working towards. He really didn't go in with any expectations, and was just doing it to practice his posing on stage.

He won his class. A few of the competitors who "use" complained that he shouldn't be allowed to compete in this comp because he's natural and a lot of them have run AAS. That makes no sense, obviously.

It just goes to show that even as a responsible adult taking steroids NOTHING can trump effective training, a good work ethic, and diet management. Just because these kids have taken steroids doesn't mean shit.

If you want to be big, strong, ripped, athletic, whatever - work hard and LEARN. Steroids are just one piece of the jigsaw, and won't magically turn you into a beast unless you're already pretty beastly without them.


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## Pika (Sep 13, 2011)

Maybe try and give them advice tell them to some on here and let these guys let them no maybe they dntno there just kids i dont think we should laff at them bro? 

Try talking to um man this is messed up!!


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## ANIMALHAUS (Sep 13, 2011)

Pika said:


> Maybe try and give them advice tell them to some on here and let these guys let them no maybe they dntno there just kids i dont think we should laff at them bro?
> 
> Try talking to um man this is messed up!!


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## Pika (Sep 13, 2011)

??^^


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## jason_ (Sep 16, 2011)

yeahh thanks pple


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## ponyboy (Sep 18, 2011)

Gazhole said:


> Just a nice aside, a friend of mine who's a natural bodybuilder entered a non-tested show recently as a warmup to the British natural comp he's been working towards. He really didn't go in with any expectations, and was just doing it to practice his posing on stage.
> 
> He won his class. A few of the competitors who "use" complained that he shouldn't be allowed to compete in this comp because he's natural and a lot of them have run AAS. That makes no sense, obviously.



Lol...I'd love to hear that type of whining to judges.  All of those guys are just embarrassed so that's why they are whining.  Especially the guy who got second place in a non-tested show to a natural guy.


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## spark (Sep 18, 2011)

*possibly??*

Mr. Croxdale,

Before you say my maladies are not from taking steroids.  How about asking how my health was before I juiced excessively?  How about it made my health worse?  How about 3 endocrinologists, hematologists (yes steroids made my blood disease more pronounced), 3 sports specialists, one being Burton Elrod...ya know him.  The Tennessee Titans doc, we had a long talk one day sir.  Maybe steroids didnt CAUSE all my maladies (as you called them) but they sure as hell made them worse.  If you need my doctor's notes, you need my paystubs from where I missed work, you need the medication list I was on before?  Your body, the 16 year old kid's body and my body are all different.  You sir, post on powerlifting sites as well. You seem fairly intelligent, so intelligent you should know what causes my body to break down mwy not cause everyone's body to breakdown.  But, again my maladies (again, as you called them) enlarged heart, high blood pressure, bad joints and tendons (from overloading my muscles and my soft tissue couldnt hold up but muscles did), was due to steroids.  Before I began juice i was fine, I had doctors track my health because of my career, it declined, progressively with the maladiezzzzzzzzzz you wanted to argue about.  These arent run of the mill docs sir.  These are sports specialist, so remember, until a doc tracks your health and 100 others, dont say I was spitting out myths.  Because I am a walking testimony bro.  

The proper thing would have been to scsre the 16 year old kid along with me instead of trying to make my health issues nonrelated to juice.  Step back and think about your post again, now that kid thinks he wont get high cholesterol, an enlarged heart or high blood pressure from juice.  What if he does the same way I did.  The same things I was warned of sir.  Really?  Really?    

ng 
[/B]





Kenny Croxdale said:


> As you and everyone else has stated, no teen should use steriods.
> 
> *Misinformation About Steriods*
> 
> ...


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## Kenny Croxdale (Sep 19, 2011)

Spark,

*Cutting To The Chase*

Even you concede that the fact that, _*"Maybe steroids didnt CAUSE all my maladies..."  *_

*"If you need my doctor's notes, you need my paystubs from where I missed work, you need the medication list I was on before?"*

Yes, I would like to see your doctors notes as well as the medicatin list you were on  before. So, I accept your offer of providing them.  

Please do so, other wised, it all hearsay on your part.  

Reiterate

Let me reiterate, that not teen should take anatolics.  As Dr Norm Fost (an author on anabolics) stated.  

*"Anyone giving teens anabolics should be hung and then given a fair trial.'*

Lyle Alzado Syndrome

Spark you suffer from "Lyle Alzado Syndrome".  You believe that all you want to believe all of your maladies are from taking anabolics.  Which is not the case. 

*"....you should know what causes my body to break down mwy not cause everyone's body to breakdown."  *

This statement indicates that you had an exhisting condition that anablolics MAY have contributed to.  However, unless you have a crystal ball, there is not way of knowing.  

Steriods may have to some extent contributed to your problem.  However, you health issues a time bomb in place waiting to go off. 

Most likely something else would have triggered your health issues at some point.  Thus, your biggest problem was/is poor genetics.  

With that said, you can blame your parents, as well.  

Anabolic Specialsit

Dr Robert Kerr (Anabolic Specialist)

Dr Robert Kerr spent a couple of decades prescribing anabolics.  Kerr wrote a book on it.  As per Kerr, none of his patients had any health issues when they followed his protocol. 

Kerr worked with and "tracked" thousands.  

I corrosponed back with Kerr in the 1980s and purchased his book.  

*Dr Norm Fost*

Dr Norm Fost is another anabolic specialist.  I have corresponded with Fost.  Fost also provided me with some of his research articles.  

*"I am a walking testimony bro."  *

A walking tesatimony to what?  Poor genetics?  Possibly overdosaing and staying on cycles too long?  Being a stupid teenager?

With that thought in mind, let's address...

*Dosage, Stacks and Cycle*

Since you have not provided us with any information on dosage, stacking or cycles; it unclear what you were doing.  

*"The proper thing would have been to scsre the 16 year old kid along with me instead of trying to make my health issues nonrelated to juice."*

The proper thing is to educate, rather than use scare tactics.  

*Scape Goat*

You want to blame everything on one thing.  Unfortunate, there it always more than one thing that contributes to any problem.  

*Step back and think about your post again, now that kid thinks he wont get high cholesterol, an enlarged heart or high blood pressure from juice.* 

*Spark Poster Child*

You certainly enjoy your victim role.  

And you want everyone to believe they are going to have the same problems as you have? 

*"What if he does the same way I did.  The same things I was warned of sir."*

Then he would be just as stupid as you were at 16.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## spark (Sep 20, 2011)

You sir, make me laugh.  I appreciate the kind words and gestures.  But, I will digress knowing what 3 specialist told me, not knocking your anabolic research.  But, they all ask the same thing before I told them "have you ever used steroids?  These symptoms are directly related to steroids".   I will take what the sports specialist say, neurologist, cardiologist and a hematologist over an anabolic researcher any day of the week now.  I once was like you sir, I found out the truth oh but.........you are correct. You are correct, quoting anabolic researchers versus actual doctors. Stands the trutb


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## Kenny Croxdale (Sep 20, 2011)

spark said:


> You sir, make me laugh.  I appreciate the kind words and gestures.  But, I will digress knowing what 3 specialist told me, not knocking your anabolic research.  But, they all ask the same thing before I told them "have you ever used steroids?  These symptoms are directly related to steroids".   I will take what the sports specialist say, neurologist, cardiologist and a hematologist over an anabolic researcher any day of the week now.  I once was like you sir, I found out the truth oh but.........you are correct. You are correct, quoting anabolic researchers versus actual doctors. Stands the trutb



Sparky,

"If you need my doctor's notes, you need my paystubs from where I missed work, you need the medication list I was on before?"

So, I guess that was all for posturing. 

You are victim of your own demise.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## jtterrible (Sep 20, 2011)

no kenny... the doctors know that steroids are ebil..


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## EATSCHILDREN (Sep 20, 2011)

But.....roids r good.     I'm just fortunate they hadn't crossed my mind until my mid 20s.


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## spark (Sep 21, 2011)

Hey guys, LOL.  I do enjoy gear, its not all evil.  I just wanted the kid to stay away from them at his age.  I didnt mean to offend anyone, i only was stating what I have been told by my doctors  And yes, i still use gear, prescribed no less.   Sorry if i pissed anyone off.  And, Mr. croxdale, have a wonderful blessed day.


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## jtterrible (Sep 21, 2011)

spark said:


> Hey guys, LOL.  I do enjoy gear, its not all evil.  I just wanted the kid to stay away from them at his age.  I didnt mean to offend anyone, i only was stating what I have been told by my doctors  And yes, i still use gear, prescribed no less.   Sorry if i pissed anyone off.  And, Mr. croxdale, have a wonderful blessed day.



no.. the doctors know better.. steroids are ebil.. and from what I've seen recently I sure as hell hope I don't get ill with anything more than the flu and need an MD.. 8 years of school and still clueless as fuck..


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## Gazhole (Oct 12, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> Lol...I'd love to hear that type of whining to judges.  All of those guys are just embarrassed so that's why they are whining.  Especially the guy who got second place in a non-tested show to a natural guy.



Thing is, the judges were fine with the natural/steroid thing. They later told him that it's in the federation rules that you should be exclusive to that fed if you're going to enter their comps, he legitimately didn't know that rule, but they let him keep the trophy and said well done.

Fucking deserved it! It was just one or two sore losers throwing their toys out of the pram.


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## bjg (Oct 12, 2011)

jason_ said:


> I didnt want to ask this in anabolic zone because probably everyone will say its okay, but i just started working out last month, and my brother has been like like 2 years and looks really good, but there are 2 kids that are 16 at my school with huge arms, but he knows they both use steroids, and he doesnt, and he says he would never, but heres the thing, are steroids that bad for you? the 16 year old kid can bench like 3 plates, and the other kid hasnt been working out long at all, they can just lift a shitload of weights, but how bad are steroids for you



Jason , i am probably older than your father and been around , here are the facts:
yes steroids will give you results but
1- your results are short term as you stop the steroids you will go back down even smaller than when you started. 
2- with long term use You will be addicted mentally and physically you will never be able to build muscle without them.
3- All my friends who used them at a young age regret it..all of them
and now i look much much better than all of them.
4- short term use will not cause any damage,but what for? since you will loose what you gained when you stop, however long term use can cause, cholesterol, high blood pressure, balding, sexual problems, heart problems, liver problems, ,...the list is too long.
ask yourself if you have a son would you let him take steroids?
I don't care what people on steroid forums say, they know the truth they just don't want to admit it.
So my advice: STAY AWAY don't even think about it be patient you will get bigger with time.

NOW YOU DECIDE


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## Pika (Oct 12, 2011)

Sorry but your wrong, theres no way of telling him he will lose all and more if he gets off of them thats not true! How old is he btw? Im hoping atleast over 21 but yh your right if he is young its ovs waitin longer is better for some reasons ..... My friend has been doing steriods since he was 17 ( fucking stupid ) his now 5'11 at 225 pounds at around 8 to 9 % bf and he is now 21 if i can il put a pic up but yh his massive and always goes for a chevk up and his very heathy... Not saying ya should do this no way should you im just saying.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 12, 2011)

*Disclaimer*

Before starting, let me once again reiterate that NO teen needs to be using anabolics.  



bjg said:


> Jason , i am probably older than your father and been around , here are the facts:



*"A little knowledge is dangerous thing."*

One of my pet peeves are individuals, such as yourself, spewing misinformation based on your limited amount of knowledge.  

With that in mind let's breakdown your one dimensional information.  



bjg said:


> yes steroids will give you results but
> 1- your results are short term as you stop the steroids you will go back down even smaller than when you started.



*Two Steps Forward*

Anabolics are the equivalent of taking two step forward when your on them. 

*One Step Back*

Going off is the equivalent of taking One Step Back.  

*Net Gain*

Thus, even when you come off you are still One Step Ahead of where you started. 

In other words, you will _NOT_ "go back down even smaller than when you started." 

*Research: ANABOLIC STEROIDS PROVIDE A COMPETITIVE EDGE IN POWERLIFTING YEARS AFTER DOPING HAS ENDED*

Based on the characteristics between doped and non-doped powerlifters, we conclude that _a period of anabolic steroid usage is an advantage for a powerlifter in competition, even several years after they stop taking a doping drug.?????? _Dr. Anders Eriksson



bjg said:


> 2- with long term use You will be addicted mentally and physically you will never be able to build muscle without them.



*Mental and/or Physical Addiction*

There is NO mental or physical addiction. 



bjg said:


> 3- All my friends who used them at a young age regret it..all of them and now i look much much better than all of them.



*Details*

Provide names and details.  All you've got is heresay.  

Again, I am NOT a proponent of teen usage.  



bjg said:


> 4- short term use will not cause any damage,but what for? since you will loose what you gained when you stop, however long term use can cause, cholesterol, high blood pressure, balding, sexual problems, heart problems, liver problems, ,...the list is too long.



*Long Term Abuse NOT Use*

The majority of individuals who have encountered problems are those who have abused them.

There are individuals who have use them for decades without any problems.

*Dr Robert Kerr*

Dr Robert Kerr spent a couple of decades prescribing anabolics. Kerr wrote a book on it. As per Kerr, none of his patients had any health issues when they followed his protocol. 

Kerr worked with and "tracked" thousands.  

*Dr Norm Fost*

Dr Norm Fost is another anabolic specialist. Fost concurs with Kerr. 

Fost also stated, "Anyone selling steriods to kid should be hung and then given a fair trial"...which I agree with.



bjg said:


> I don't care what people on steroid forums say, they know the truth they just don't want to admit it.



*Your a MORON*

I am not sure which is worse; a clueless uneducated individual taking anabolics or a moron like you spewing out misinformation and posing as an authority on a topic you know nothing about.  




bjg said:


> So my advice: STAY AWAY don't even think about it be patient you will get bigger with time.



At least you got one thing right.

Kenny Croxdale


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## Pika (Oct 12, 2011)

Now This^^ is what i was sayong lol i just didnt know how to say it ha.

Abuse of anythin long term is damging to say the least, i was just like every one eles i watch the tv show where the man's arms exploded!! I was like fuck ever using steriods! I thought bang your dead if you take them .... But going on these sites people who are honest and just go out of there way to tell you the truth is just another 5 steps in to the reality .... I then found out that it wasnt steriods that made his arms like that it was some form of umm oil? Or somthim anyways .....


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## bjg (Oct 13, 2011)

Pika said:


> Sorry but your wrong, theres no way of telling him he will lose all and more if he gets off of them thats not true! How old is he btw? Im hoping atleast over 21 but yh your right if he is young its ovs waitin longer is better for some reasons ..... My friend has been doing steriods since he was 17 ( fucking stupid ) his now 5'11 at 225 pounds at around 8 to 9 % bf and he is now 21 if i can il put a pic up but yh his massive and always goes for a chevk up and his very heathy... Not saying ya should do this no way should you im just saying.


steroids must always be followed up by check ups and medical exams and taking other medicine to minimize bad steroids side effects etc....i think it is really stupid to start ruining your life that early at 16 or 17. your friend is still healthy because he is always checking himself up etc...but is he gonna stay healthy ..let us know in few years and if he stops steroids what will happen????
he will go down in size  very quickly .
even growth hormone effects that were thought to last and stay...it does not.
anyways it is a debate that will never end, the point is :why bodybuilding? it should be for the looks and the health and the mental health .with steroids you will get the looks AT THE EXPENSE OF PHYSICAL AND MENTAL HEALTH and you will be dependent on it is it worth it???.
how far are you willing to go for the looks ....at the expense of what?


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## Pika (Oct 13, 2011)

Iknow your 100% right know one needs or should use them at such a stupid age i was juat saying ..... But its a fact bro if ypu have a good diet and a good pct you will keep sone nice gains just need to do things right and withba good kniw it all


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## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 13, 2011)

*The Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor*



bjg said:


> steroids must always be followed up by check ups and medical exams and taking other medicine to minimize bad steroids side effects etc....i think it is really stupid to start ruining your life that early at 16 or 17. your friend is still healthy because he is always checking himself up etc...but is he gonna stay healthy ..let us know in few years and if he stops steroids what will happen????
> he will go down in size  very quickly .
> even growth hormone effects that were thought to last and stay...it does not.
> anyways it is a debate that will never end, the point is :why bodybuilding? it should be for the looks and the health and the mental health .with steroids you will get the looks AT THE EXPENSE OF PHYSICAL AND MENTAL HEALTH and you will be dependent on it is it worth it???.
> how far are you willing to go for the looks ....at the expense of what?



*The Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor*

Your rant reminds me of John Belushi in "The Blue Brothers" on how the German's bombed Pearl Harbor. 

God love you, you got part of it right. 

Kenny Croxdale


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## lcht2 (Oct 16, 2011)

ANIMALHOUSE said:


> All I thought about was pussy, beer, and going sideways in 2nd gear when I was 16, definitely not needles. lol.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 16, 2011)

lcht2 said:


>




*Woops*

It was Animal House, not the Blues Brothers.  

Nice catch.

Kenny


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## Killermonkey (Oct 16, 2011)

Bonesaw said:


> very bad at that age.  not for kids or people new to lifting



In short, this is it! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## bjg (Oct 16, 2011)

Pika said:


> Iknow your 100% right know one needs or should use them at such a stupid age i was juat saying ..... But its a fact bro if ypu have a good diet and a good pct you will keep sone nice gains just need to do things right and withba good kniw it all


 the only way one might keep some gains after stopping steroids is to start taking steroids after years of bodybuilding after your body reached a plateau a maximum level then using steroids would take you to a higher level and when you stop you might keep just a tiny bit of what you gained ONLY if you continue to work out at the same level. 
i know a guy who is a beginner , age 25 he started directly on GH and spent tons of money over 2 years , as he stopped he lost everything he gained in about 4-5 months ..so i believe some people could keep some gains if they have experience and train properly but it is very difficult once your system is used to steroids.
But taking them at 16 is totally ridiculous.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 16, 2011)

bjg said:


> the only way one might keep some gains after stopping steroids is to start taking steroids after years of bodybuilding after your body reached a plateau a maximum level then using steroids would take you to a higher level and when you stop you might keep just a tiny bit of what you gained ONLY if you continue to work out at the same level.



*Continuing to Flaunt Your Ignorance*

Wow, your really like keeping this flapjack on the giddle until it's burnt, don't you?  

You have NO practical experience NOR much "book" learning on this topic. 

_So, let me once again CONFUSE YOU WITH THE FACTS 

*Research: ANABOLIC STEROIDS PROVIDE A COMPETITIVE EDGE IN POWERLIFTING YEARS AFTER DOPING HAS ENDED*

Based on the characteristics between doped and non-doped powerlifters, we conclude that a period of anabolic steroid usage is an advantage for a powerlifter in competition, even several years after they stop taking a doping drug.?????? Dr. Anders Eriksson__


bjg said:



			i know a guy who is a beginner , age 25 he started directly on GH and spent tons of money over 2 years , as he stopped he lost everything he gained in about 4-5 months ..so i believe some people could keep some gains if they have experience and train properly but it is very difficult once your system is used to steroids.
		
Click to expand...



*More Misinformation*

As research indicates, the gains obtained with anabolics put you ahead of where you before using. 

*Losing Everything in 4-5 Months*

The only way he lost everything was that he COMPLETELY stopped training and basically did NOTHING.  

*Weight Training--Losing All Gains*

The same thing applies with weight training.  When you STOP training, you "shrink" back to where you were.  

*Anedocatal Evidence*

From a personal persepctive, the research data on is on the money.  

A large percentage of the gains that I obtained from using them from 1977 to 1987 are still with me today. 

I've maintained my relationship with my powerlifting buddies from that era and they will tell you the same thing.  

*Your LACK of Knowledge*

You lack any "book" smarts and NO practical real world, hand on knowledge on this topic. 



bjg said:



			But taking them at 16 is totally ridiculous.
		
Click to expand...


Well, you got one thing right...

Kenny Croxdale_


----------



## bjg (Oct 16, 2011)

I have never seen in my life a guy taking steroids and maintaining his gains after he stops...in fact all i have seen is the opposite; If you bring me all the quotes in the world from the internet i don't care , my information is based on reality and on medical textbooks not on internet bullshit ask any doctor...some of the gains are also water retention, withdrawal symptoms can be very very serious leading to mental problems and sometimes to suicide..androgen levels will drop below normal and side effects could be irreversible in extreme cases and in women there are irreversible androgenic effects. in short the deeper you get into steroids the deeper the shit you are in.


----------



## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 16, 2011)

bjg said:


> I have never seen in my life a guy taking steroids and maintaining his gains after he stops...in fact all i have seen is the opposite; If you bring me all the quotes in the world from the internet i don't care , my information is based on reality and on medical textbooks not on internet bullshit



*You Haven't Been Around*

Thanks for acknowledging once again your lack of knowledge in this area.  

*One Dimensional Knowledge*

Again, your knowledge is one dimensional.  You haven't been around enough to know. 

*"i can show you that you are not up to the level in no time, but i have no time to waste on that."* From your resent post http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2510199

Evidently, you got more time on your hands that you realize.  

Kenny Croxdale


----------



## bjg (Oct 16, 2011)

kenny whatever .............just go ahead and take steroids and whatever you like since you like them so much you are just arguing to argue.


----------



## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 16, 2011)

bjg said:


> kenny whatever .............just go ahead and take steroids and whatever you like since you like them so much you are just arguing to argue.



*I took took then I don't take them.*

Evidently, you didn't quite understand the difference.  I have been quite open about that. 

Does that clarify it? 

*Presenting Factual Information*

Let me try once more to clarify information with you.  

I am a proponet of prsenting the facts, rather than fallacies.  

Kenny Croxdale


----------



## ScottyMac710 (Oct 16, 2011)

bjg said:


> I have never seen in my life a guy taking steroids and maintaining his gains after he stops...in fact all i have seen is the opposite; If you bring me all the quotes in the world from the internet i don't care , my information is based on reality and on medical textbooks not on internet bullshit ask any doctor...some of the gains are also water retention, withdrawal symptoms can be very very serious leading to mental problems and sometimes to suicide..androgen levels will drop below normal and side effects could be irreversible in extreme cases and in women there are irreversible androgenic effects. in short the deeper you get into steroids the deeper the shit you are in.



You're watching WAY too much Fox news bro.

If you've never seen someone use AAS and maintain their gains afterwards you clearly have not been around any experienced and serious drug using athletes. I have seen plenty of people blow up of dbol or some stupid cycle and lose most of their gains afterwards, but that is because they stopped training, never ate well when they were on or afterwards, didnt use any post-cycle therapy, and didn't have a good training regimen to begin with. You should stop while you're behind; your posts are blatant regurgitation of media bullshit and uninformed medical personnel (a close family member is a very well versed and educated Dr. in the emergency room, but warned me about the dangers of creatine without knowing the first thing about it)


----------



## bjg (Oct 16, 2011)

ScottyMac710 said:


> You're watching WAY too much Fox news bro.
> 
> If you've never seen someone use AAS and maintain their gains afterwards you clearly have not been around any experienced and serious drug using athletes. I have seen plenty of people blow up of dbol or some stupid cycle and lose most of their gains afterwards, but that is because they stopped training, never ate well when they were on or afterwards, didnt use any post-cycle therapy, and didn't have a good training regimen to begin with. You should stop while you're behind; your posts are blatant regurgitation of media bullshit and uninformed medical personnel (a close family member is a very well versed and educated Dr. in the emergency room, but warned me about the dangers of creatine without knowing the first thing about it)


The people you see maintaining their gains are lying about stopping plain simple i have been in the gyms with people you won't dream of being with don't worry about that, 35 years in the gym taught me a lot.
steroids users are of two kind, some regret it and some know the truth but don't want to admit it so they defend their position. only Growth hormones can have long lasting effects.


----------



## Built (Oct 16, 2011)

bjg said:


> i know a guy who is a beginner , age 25 he started directly on GH and spent tons of money over 2 years , as he stopped he lost everything he gained in about 4-5 months ..so i believe some people could keep some gains if they have experience and train properly but it is very difficult once your system is used to steroids.



I'm sorry, but your guy friend was a fool to start on GH at 25. GH doesn't make you big; for the most part, it's a cutting drug. It helps you drop fat and it does great things for connective tissues and skin, but nobody gets huge off GH. At 25, unless he was cutting hard, GH would have been an utter waste.

He lost all his gains btw because he wasn't eating enough once he went off. Thermodynamics - it's not just a good idea - it's the law! ??? I've seen plenty of guys lose all their gains from natural bulks as well. They get big, stop training and overeating, and shrink right back to where they were before. Gear or no, you still gotta eat, and you still gotta lift heavy things. 



bjg said:


> But taking them at 16 is totally ridiculous.





bjg said:


> I have never seen in my life a guy taking steroids and maintaining his gains after he stops...in fact all i have seen is the opposite; If you bring me all the quotes in the world from the internet i don't care , my information is based on reality and on medical textbooks not on internet bullshit ask any doctor...


I have yet to meet a doctor who truly understands anabolic use. I'm sure they exist, but I wouldn't ask "any" doctor, to be sure. 


bjg said:


> some of the gains are also water retention,


Yep - aromatizable compounds mean more estrogen, and more estrogen means more water. Take it from a woman on this one - we INVENTED bloat. <shakes tiny fist in rage>


bjg said:


> withdrawal symptoms can be very very serious leading to mental problems and sometimes to suicide..


I know a great many men who use and who have used varying levels of gear. One of the men I know well - a Registered Nurse - had post cycle depression that was bad enough that he said he never wanted to do another cycle.

Even though he's the only one I've encountered, the possibility does exist, no doubt about it. 


bjg said:


> androgen levels will drop below normal and side effects could be irreversible in extreme cases and in women there are irreversible androgenic effects. in short the deeper you get into steroids the deeper the shit you are in.


In women there are SOMETIMES irreversible androgenic effects. This varies as women vary, and also with the drugs used, dose and duration of the cycle involved. 


bjg said:


> The people you see maintaining their gains are lying about stopping plain simple


Many are. Most people really don't know how to train and diet properly - gear lets you get away with a lot and yes, you'll turn back into a normal person when it's over. If you don't have a DAMNED good exit-plan, you're going to lose all your gains. If you DO have a good exit-plan, you'll lose very little. 


bjg said:


> i have been in the gyms with people you won't dream of being with don't worry about that, 35 years in the gym taught me a lot.
> steroids users are of two kind, some regret it and some know the truth but don't want to admit it so they defend their position. only Growth hormones can have long lasting effects.



Only GH can have long lasting effects? Could I trouble you to clarify what you mean by this?


----------



## bjg (Oct 16, 2011)

He lost all his gains btw because he wasn't eating enough once he went off. 
Only GH can have long lasting effects? Could I trouble you to clarify what you mean by this?[/QUOTE]

GH not only makes you use fat as a source of energy thus cutting, but it gives tremendous lean muscle mass increase. my friend who was 25 was followed by experts and still did not maintain any of his gains, although i would think he should have , but it seems from observation that the more trained you are before GH the more gains you will keep after stopping . GH have greater effects when used with insulin. It promotes  and increases the synthesis of protein tissue: recovery, repair and building of new muscle tissue, 
It was long believed (scientifically or medically thought) that some of its gains could be maintained for a long time after stopping and in some cases forever. 
the downside: very expensive my friend spent around 15 K.
and.....it accelerates significantly any cancer in your body. 
It might also cause bone deformation like widening of jaw and skull etc...similar to acromegaly symptoms.


----------



## Built (Oct 16, 2011)

bjg said:


> Built said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excuse me. It can give you SOME lean mass increase. Some. Not tremendous. Sorry. 


bjg said:


> my friend who was 25 was followed by experts and still did not maintain any of his gains,


Which experts?


bjg said:


> although i would think he should have , but it seems from observation that the more trained you are before GH the more gains you will keep after stopping . GH have greater effects when used with insulin.


D'uh! GH also induces insulin resistance, which is one of the reasons why it works so well for fat loss during a cut. By sparing glucose for the brain, retinas, and red blood cells - tissues which cannot operate off ketone bodies - protein is spared, and thus, so are your muscles. 


bjg said:


> It promotes  and increases the synthesis of protein tissue: recovery, repair and building of new muscle tissue,
> It was long believed (scientifically or medically thought) that some of its gains could be maintained for a long time after stopping and in some cases forever.
> the downside: very expensive my friend spent around 15 K.
> and.....it accelerates significantly any cancer in your body.


This is a very real concern. I have yet to meet anyone who has been harmed in this way, but the possibility exists. 


bjg said:


> It might also cause bone deformation like widening of jaw and skull etc...similar to acromegaly symptoms.


In large doses, right again. 

Your young man, the 25 year old on GH for many months - had idiots guiding him. I'm very sorry he had such poor advice.


----------



## bjg (Oct 16, 2011)

ironically one of the people following him is a doctor...
i am no expert on GH but i have some info about it  and i see some bodybuilders swear by it  especially the middle aged ones because normally these are the ones who can afford it.
i have seen one case of cancer ( started with prostate cancer) with a well known weightlifter in my country but who knows if it was from GH or not  but he showed symptoms of acromegaly , he died at an age of around 65.
i know of another one who is young and really shows symptoms of acromegaly. 
..


----------



## Built (Oct 16, 2011)

bjg said:


> ironically one of the people following him is a doctor...


No irony there - it's pretty much the norm. I have yet to meet a medical doctor (at least, in real life) whom I would ask ANYTHING about not only steroids, but even thyroid replacement. 


bjg said:


> i am no expert on GH but i have some info about it  and i see some bodybuilders swear by it  especially the middle aged ones because normally these are the ones who can afford it.


On the black market it can be quite inexpensive; regardless, bodybuilders do not run GH by itself. It is almost always stacked with AAS and other compounds. 


bjg said:


> i have seen one case of cancer ( started with prostate cancer) with a well known weightlifter in my country but who knows if it was from GH or not


I have several male friends with prostate cancer. Only one of them uses steroids, and he's in his sixties and on hormone replacement therapy only; he's not an athlete. 

Prostate cancer is associated with the same risk factors as breast cancer: elevated estrogen levels. This often accompanies higher-than-normal levels of bodyfat. The aromatase enzyme resides in adipose - more adipose = more estrogen, which leads to the increased prostate cancer risk. Existing hyperplasias may very well be inflamed by GH, but GH by itself won't so this. Not unless MY reading is out of date. 


bjg said:


> but he showed symptoms of acromegaly , he died at an age of around 65.
> i know of another one who is young and really shows symptoms of acromegaly.
> ..


Acromegaly is a different story - as scientists we of course understand that anectodal evidence is far from proof, and that correlation does not mean causation. I take this moment to remind you of this, since you made earlier statements on this latter point.


----------



## bjg (Oct 16, 2011)

i ve been around and by looking at someone and his posture and his face, his skin... i just can tell what he is on and GH for me gives very specific looks and posture..of course when taken in excess.
but the cancer thing is medically well established from what i understand..
here is my view on things:
1- teenagers and beginners should at no price venture into steroid territory especially not under the advise of peers,
2- steroids, Gh and others (even vitamins if you want to push it to the extreme) are not to be used for recreational purposes like looking better or building muscle faster etc.. they are medicine and must be treated as such and used for therapeutic reasons.
3- Finally if you are getting results no matter how slow, why start taking things that could be of questionable source, muscle built slowly and with patience is truly rewarding
that was my opinion, there is nothing in it to be wrong or right, just my view.


----------



## Built (Oct 16, 2011)

GH use is a well-established risk factor for the development of prostate cancer? 

I know cancers _proliferate_ with GH, but develop? 

As of last spring, this had not been established
[Doping and urologic tumors]. [Urologia. 2010 Apr-May] - PubMed - NCBI

Do you have something more recent showing a causal relationship between GH use and prostate cancer?


----------



## bjg (Oct 16, 2011)

Built said:


> GH use is a well-established risk factor for the development of prostate cancer?
> 
> I know cancers _proliferate_ with GH, but develop?
> 
> ...



not prostate just in general. develop maybe but proliferate definitely, who is willing to test hi/herself every few months to see if no signs of cancer there and in many cases it is not even detectable....so it is not practical to SERIOUSLY go on GH


----------



## Built (Oct 16, 2011)

There is a paucity of documented evidence to support a risk, although the mechanism certainly exists in theory. It is one of many things to consider when making the decision to use - or not.


----------



## Curt James (Oct 16, 2011)

x~factor said:


> Could it be that those kids are just strong naturally and not necessarily on steroids? I know this one kid at the gym that he doesn't look like he has 6 months of training under his belt but he could bench 225 lbs with EASE. I swear this kid is around 140, maybe 150 lbs tops! Some guys are just born strong.



This. There was a kid in the Navy who benched 300 at a buck-fifty. Doubt he was juicing. Just naturally cock strong.


----------



## bjg (Oct 16, 2011)

Curt James said:


> This. There was a kid in the Navy who benched 300 at a buck-fifty. Doubt he was juicing. Just naturally cock strong.



you are right there i have seen some naturally strong people in fact the strongest one i have seen was not on any juice.  
I am not considered as particularly strong in bench presses but so far i have not seen any of these juiced kids lift as nearly as i did when i was their age.  
I used to do around 120 pushups in a row at 16 and when i started bench pressing, my first bench was 135 lbs,, 6 months later i was training with 225 lbs,


----------



## Built (Oct 17, 2011)

You haven't seen assisted lifters bench more than two plates a side? Seriously?


----------



## zoco (Oct 17, 2011)

jason_ said:


> I didnt want to ask this in anabolic zone because probably everyone will say its okay, but i just started working out last month, and my brother has been like like 2 years and looks really good, but there are 2 kids that are 16 at my school with huge arms, but he knows they both use steroids, and he doesnt, and he says he would never, but heres the thing, are steroids that bad for you? the 16 year old kid can bench like 3 plates, and the other kid hasnt been working out long at all, they can just lift a shitload of weights, but how bad are steroids for you



At that age, taking steroids is the worst thing you could do to your body.


----------



## bjg (Oct 17, 2011)

Built said:


> You haven't seen assisted lifters bench more than two plates a side? Seriously?



of course i did i was talking at 16-to 18 years old. later in life around 28 i could bench slightly more than  3 plates a side in a competition (just one rep). but  you don't see in gyms natural people benching that much especially at a body weight of 170 lbs. 
other than that i have seen lifters (on steroids of course) lift in the 500-600 range. in fact one guy was my weight or slightly more and regional champion did lift above 400.
One time that was around 25 years ago i was at the gym and a volleyball team came in (imagine volleyball!!!!!) one of the players around 5'10-6ft or so not particularly big maybe 180 lbs and trimmed , does not look at all like a bodybuilder came on the bench no warm up or anything lifted two plates a side the right after lifted around 365 for 3-4 reps and left...that was amazing


----------



## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 17, 2011)

ScottyMac710 said:


> You're watching WAY too much Fox news bro.
> 
> If you've never seen someone use AAS and maintain their gains afterwards you clearly have not been around any experienced and serious drug using athletes. I have seen plenty of people blow up of dbol or some stupid cycle and lose most of their gains afterwards, but that is because they stopped training, never ate well when they were on or afterwards, didnt use any post-cycle therapy, and didn't have a good training regimen to begin with. You should stop while you're behind; your posts are blatant regurgitation of media bullshit and uninformed medical personnel (a close family member is a very well versed and educated Dr. in the emergency room, but warned me about the dangers of creatine without knowing the first thing about it)



Scotty, 

Bingo! 

Well put.  

Kenny Croxdale


----------



## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 17, 2011)

*"i can show you that you are not up to the level in no time, but i have no time to waste on that."*

For a guiy with no time you sure have a lot of time to waste.  

It would be nice if you wasted the "no time" you don't have on educating yourself more. 



bjg said:


> ironically one of the people following him is a doctor...



*A Friend*

Ok, we get it.  You have ONE friend who used anabolics and everything you know is based on him.  

He was 25 and clueless. 

*Medical Doctor*

I've yet to find one medical doctor that had any idea about anabolics.  

Medical doctors have no knowledge of which anabolic steriod does what.  Nor do that have in hand on experience.  

*PDR*

What you end up with is a medical doctor reading a PDR and coming up with random conclusions. 



			
				bjg;2510563i am no expert on GH but i have some info about it  [/QUOTE said:
			
		

> *Understatement*
> 
> You don't have an inkling of an idea about GH.
> 
> ...




*"I have seen ONE" *

Your knowledge is based on "ONES".  One never tell you anything. 

Let me know when you get to two.  

*Resume*

By the way, I am stil waiting on your CV (resume).
Kenny Croxdale


----------



## stepaukas (Oct 17, 2011)

steroids, or any kind of drug taken to enhance an athlete is cheating... in any sport..

funny how after athletic performances that are outstanding, the athlete always gets caught.. xcountry skiing, cycling, carl lewis in the 100, 90# russian gymnasts..

 the bodybuilding game the drugs are accepted... 
funny how when robbie r is interviewed, he says in his day, arnold and chemist zane and all the others from that era took small doses. he says todays guys take a ton.. who cares robbie.. they took drugs back then and now.. what they couldnt achieve thru hard training and diet they took drugs to get over that hump..its accepted, but is still cheating.. 

i cant get that look i want thru sleep diet and training so i'm taking drugs.. lol!!!

in the winter olympics that one italian skier blew everyone away in the 50k race.. two weeks later he was caught being on epo..

loosers


----------



## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 17, 2011)

stepaukas said:


> steroids, or any kind of drug taken to enhance an athlete is cheating... in any sport..
> 
> funny how after athletic performances that are outstanding, the athlete always gets caught.. xcountry skiing, cycling, carl lewis in the 100, 90# russian gymnasts..
> 
> ...



*It's NOT Cheating*
It not cheating if everyone take them...which is what you've indicated. 

*Drug Free And "Don't Ask Don't Tell". *
Now many sports have drug free as well the "we don't ask divisions".  

I am fine with that.  

Kenny Croxdale


----------



## bjg (Oct 17, 2011)

some people choose steroids and some do not. The ones who do not will have more pride in achieving their goals period. Steroids are not only used by pros , but by youngsters who are impatient and want immediate results, and for sure they will pay for it later, and kenny i did not base my opinion on one person and you know it you just like to argue.
Another point that none has mentioned: 
your body is made by many organs, liver, heart, kidney , etc...and muscles...a dramatic muscle mass gain is not balanced by a bigger heart, larger kidneys , liver etc....you are still the same just your muscles are larger and this is no good, like when you put a powerful engine on a small car leaving all the other components the same..something 's got to break.
whereas slow and natural muscle building gives time to the whole body to adapt and evolve accordingly


----------



## Built (Oct 17, 2011)

bjg said:


> some people choose steroids and some do not. The ones who do not will have more pride in achieving their goals period.


You don't know this. Not unless you're some sort of a mind-reader. Sorry.


bjg said:


> Steroids are not only used by pros , but by youngsters who are impatient and want immediate results,


They're also used by Broadway dancers, Cirque du Soleil acrobats, and middle-aged housewives who want better recovery and performance. Most steroid users are recreational. Competitive athletes are only a small subset of all who use. 


bjg said:


> and for sure they will pay for it later,


Kids should not use, period. They have not finished growing; at the very least, steroid use can and will stunt their growth. 


bjg said:


> and kenny i did not base my opinion on one person and you know it you just like to argue.


To be fair, you're arguing based on very little information (much of it wrong, or at least wildly exaggerated in a way typical of the mainstream media) with people who are immersed in physical culture. You are a thoughtful man and you know some good information, but you appear to be somewhat blinded by your personal bias and it's keeping you from understanding more about the points you try to argue. 

My .02


bjg said:


> Another point that none has mentioned:
> your body is made by many organs, liver, heart, kidney , etc...and muscles...a dramatic muscle mass gain is not balanced by a bigger heart, larger kidneys , liver etc....you are still the same just your muscles are larger


This is patently false.


bjg said:


> and this is no good, like when you put a powerful engine on a small car leaving all the other components the same..something 's got to break.
> whereas slow and natural muscle building gives time to the whole body to adapt and evolve accordingly


Not everyone who uses steroids does so to such an extreme as to cause the kinds of problems you fear. It's like comparing a true social drinker to an alcoholic - it's not the substance that causes the problem, it's the person who takes it.


----------



## bjg (Oct 17, 2011)

built you are right about me exaggerating things and sure i am biased but my main point is addressed to young bodybuilders, perhaps i failed to make that clear from the beginning,...adults and experienced ones can do what they want..but iam against the idea of letting teens try steroids like many people in this forum would think , i feel it is an obligation to warn them.
anyways my expertise as far as bodybuilding is concerned is the workout itself and the techniques of lifting etc..and the routines..i am not interested in performance enhancing products. i increase my performance through working out and if i hit a plateau i try to solve that by working out and if i can't so be it. no problem for me.
as far as steroids being used by housewives ...maybe from time to time or for therapeutic reasons ,some elderly also use them prescribed to them by doctors for therapeutic reasons only ..this is where the side effects are not as important as the benefits., i don't see my grandma doing cycles of Dbol....  bulking and cuttingl!! perhaps one day we will who knows.


----------



## Pika (Oct 17, 2011)

Lol im just sitting back and watching built rape ya all lol no offence lol she goes hard man i tell ya  only person i listen to


----------



## bjg (Oct 17, 2011)

Pika said:


> Lol im just sitting back and watching built rape ya all lol no offence lol she goes hard man i tell ya  only person i listen to



Pika i learned long time ago that you should not argue with women....


----------



## Pika (Oct 17, 2011)

Aint that the truth ha... But 4 real she just a beast on the shit she knows i tell ya lol


----------



## effinrob (Oct 17, 2011)

bad idea wait til u have been training for a few years and are over at least 25


----------



## sofargone561 (Oct 17, 2011)

bjg said:


> Pika i learned long time ago that you should not argue with women....


 atleast one that can kick ur ass or make u pay child support otherwise argue away


----------



## Built (Oct 17, 2011)

bjg said:


> adults and experienced ones can do what they want..but iam against the idea of letting teens try steroids like many people in this forum would think , i feel it is an obligation to warn them.


You also have an obligation not to lie to them. The kids you seek to protect will figure out very quickly when the risks are being overstated. Over-exaggerate the risk, and they won't believe you at all. 


bjg said:


> as far as steroids being used by housewives ...maybe from time to time or for therapeutic reasons ,some elderly also use them prescribed to them by doctors for therapeutic reasons only ..this is where the side effects are not as important as the benefits., i don't see my grandma doing cycles of Dbol....  bulking and cuttingl!! perhaps one day we will who knows.



bjg, I appreciate you are communicating in your second language (and far better than I could in MY second language), but please re-read my post. I said nothing of bulking and cutting. I said enhanced performance and recovery. And yes, there are middle-aged housewives who compete in amateur figure competitions using steroids and growth hormone. 

My 81 year old mother uses transdermal testosterone, DHEA and progesterone for bone and ocular health. 

Not all steroid users use these agents to get bigger.


----------



## bjg (Oct 18, 2011)

Maybe you can keep up some gained muscle after stopping steroids but this is in an ideal situation , practically i have yet to see a long term steroid user ho kept all his muscle gains after stopping steroids for good...he might say he stopped but normally all of them lie about it, when he completely stops he will start going down ,in a year he will loose everything if not more than what he gained. of course he will keep his natural muscle and sometimes even that will diminish..seen it many times, with people who kept working out and kept good diet and they took whatever necessary steps not to loose  muscle..finally went back to steroids this is the story and here it is not exaggerated at all ....can somebody tell me of a steroid user who completely stopped steroids (not for health reasons) for years i mean totally and sure that he is not lying about it?????
now is damage to the liver exaggerated when steroids are long term used by young people?????
Are you healthier if you are young and rely on steroids????
Is bodybuilding to you only about looks, what about health????

In Bodybuilding Steroids will slowly kill you while giving you the illusion that you are getting better but in reality it is killing you from the inside. you might want to be tempted to try them and look better temporarily but you have to know when to stop.
medicine must be treated as medicine when the benefits outweigh the harm period.

\It is easy to look up the list of young athletes, sprinters, bodybuilders who died young ..was it by bad luck??
just google search about the study done on wrestlers who used steroids for years and you will see chocking results  and the percentage of them who died young in their 40's and the percentage of them who has problems.

here are the words of the late baseball player Caminity:

Caminiti's best season was 1996 when, at age 33, he hit 40 homers had 130 runs batted in and a .326 batting average.

He said the steroid use was catching up to him.

"My tendons and ligaments got all torn up. My muscles got too strong for my tendons and ligaments.

"And now my body's not producing testosterone. You know what that's like? You get lethargic. You get depressed. It's terrible."

Caminiti is the latest in a long line of athletes to die at a young age after admitting to using performance enhancing drugs.  

I'm amused when people want to talk about steroids and their impact on the game, I'm more concerned about steroids and their impact on the human being.


----------



## bjg (Oct 18, 2011)

Finally here is a basic and maybe stupid question , please give me an answer: 
Why would someone who is healthy would use steroids??????????


----------



## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 18, 2011)

bjg said:


> some people choose steroids and some do not. The ones who do not will have more pride in achieving their goals period.



*More Pride*

Those do not use don't have any more pride.  



bjg said:


> Steroids are not only used by pros , but by youngsters who are impatient and want immediate results, and for sure they will pay for it later,



*Group Concensus*

EVERYONE on this site has noted that kids should NOT take them. 



bjg said:


> and kenny i did not base my opinion on one person and you know it you just like to argue.



*Based On One Person*

Then you will have NO problem providing more specific information on other individuls.  Specific information meaning names and detailed information on them. 

As a PhD, you know the drill on providing references, right?  



bjg said:


> Another point that none has mentioned:
> your body is made by many organs, liver, heart, kidney , etc...and muscles...a dramatic muscle mass gain is not balanced by a bigger heart, larger kidneys , liver etc....you are still the same just your muscles are larger and this is no good, like when you put a powerful engine on a small car leaving all the other components the same..something 's got to break.
> whereas slow and natural muscle building gives time to the whole body to adapt and evolve accordingly



*Dosage, Cycle Length, Genetics*

Damage occurs based on what you take, the dosage, the length of your cycle and your genetic disposition.  

*Decades After The Fact*

Over thirty years after taking them, I have had no long term effects nor have those I lifted with. 

*Damgage*

Health issues occur from those who abused them.  Overdosing, remaining on lengthy cycles, as well as poor genetics.  

*Car Deaths*

Cars have killed more individuals (especially kids) on a percentage basis than anabolics.

*Ban Car Use*

If you want to save more lifes, esepcially kids lives, ban cars.  

Kenny Croxdale


----------



## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 18, 2011)

bjg said:


> Finally here is a basic and maybe stupid question , please give me an answer:
> Why would someone who is healthy would use steroids??????????



*Psychologist*

Why do people smoke, over eat, etc.?

You need a psychologist to understand that. 

There are a variety of reasons.

Kenny Croxdale


----------



## bjg (Oct 18, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> *More Pride*
> 
> Those do not use don't have any more pride.
> 
> ...



it seems that for every statement i make you have an answer , for sure , any statement can generate replies..
don't you see that in all of your replies there are lots of "if s" and lots of conditions like  " it depends on this ..it depends on that...if  this and if that"
Anything can be beneficial under very specific conditions and if this and if that....
tell me How many bodybuilders using steroids do you see dose their steroids according to their genetics and care about how long and how much they take and followed by strict medical surveillance..
So get real and get practical you r answers apply in ideal situations not in the real world.
and please answer my question 
why do you use steroids???


----------



## stepaukas (Oct 18, 2011)

lots here on this message board sound like they are for taking steroids for sporting events to help with performance/results..

i'm totally against it.. 

i'm also curious as to hearing results, or top placings in sporting events, before and after taking enhansing steroids..

i take my one a day vitamin, a little extra vitamin c and train my ass off. i use to be a 4:03 miler.never goy under the magic 4:00 mark, but i tried.. maybe taking epo would have helped me recover better to make my next training session eazier, but no way do i cheat, or would i put drugs in my body..if i cant run a sub 4:00, then i'll take a 4:03.

i currently bike race at the pro level.. could i be a faster pro by taking drugs? hell yes, but i choose not to.

whats everyones best results or placing before and then after drugs? 

is it worth it?

you making a living at your sport?


i bet most that do drugs are your typical gym rat. no good, or average at best at sports, then  they took up lifting.. benching 400 instead of 300.. big deal..


i love to hear the competition results...


----------



## bjg (Oct 18, 2011)

[

*Car Deaths*

Cars have killed more individuals (especially kids) on a percentage basis than anabolics.

*Ban Car Use*

If you want to save more lifes, esepcially kids lives, ban cars.  

Kenny Croxdale[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

and here you go you now use practical reality when you see it suits your argument.
the car example like cars kill more people than planes ..more than that 
is a bullshit statistical manipulation. cars also killed more people than cigarettes....these kind of statistics are used for a specific advertising but in reality when applying statistics there are many variables and parameters to consider otherwise it is bullshit. don't argue with me on that remember i am a PHD after all.
How many kids you know chose to go in a car knowing that they will have an accident? but all the kids you know taking steroids are doing it on their own choice regardless of the consequences.....so that fact alone makes this statistical comparison as Bullshit and non valid since the two cases do not have the same conditions.
and  to add: i write research articles, i do statistics and i know all the ins and outs of all this so called scientific evidence.


----------



## bjg (Oct 18, 2011)

stepaukas said:


> lots here on this message board sound like they are for taking steroids for sporting events to help with performance/results..
> 
> i'm totally against it..
> 
> ...


----------



## bjg (Oct 18, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> *Psychologist*
> 
> Why do people smoke, over eat, etc.?
> 
> ...



 so you just admitted indirectly that steroids are bad since you compared it with smoking , over eating etc...
 i can tell you why i do bodybuilding i don't need a psychologist: i do it because i like it, to get in shape , healthier and better quality of life, physical and mental health, better in other sports and activities, in short a better person.

so why do you use steroids????


----------



## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 18, 2011)

bjg said:


> so you just admitted indirectly that steroids are bad since you compared it with smoking , over eating etc...



*Steriods *

Steriods are drugs.  So, does that mean drugs are bad?  

Like any drug, they needs to be used in a responsible manner.  

When used in a proper manner they can be an effective tool.  

When used with disregard, a health hazzard...like driving a car.



bjg said:


> i can tell you why i do bodybuilding i don't need a psychologist: i do it because i like it, to get in shape , healthier and better quality of life, physical and mental health, better in other sports and activities, in short a better person.



Good for you.



bjg said:


> so why do you use steroids????



*Verb Conjugation*

You need to learn verb conjugation.  As I have stated, I TOOK them from 1977 to 1987.  

I don't TAKE them now

*Definition of Took And Take*

Took is a past tense verb.  It relates to an even in the past.  

Take is a present tense verb.  It applies to the present.  

Do you understand the different?  



bjg said:


> Why do people smoke, over eat, etc.?



You're the one who doesn't need a physicologist to figure, your the PhD boy who knows.  So, you tell me.

Kenny Croxdale


----------



## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 18, 2011)

bjg said:


> [*Car Deaths*
> 
> Cars have killed more individuals (especially kids) on a percentage basis than anabolics.
> 
> ...





bjg said:


> and here you go you now use practical reality when you see it suits your argument.



*Reality is MY Point*

You have spewed out incorrect information.  Even you have acknowledged your lack of knowledge. 

"built you are right about me exaggerating things..."  



bjg said:


> the car example like cars kill more people than planes ..more than that is a bullshit statistical manipulation. cars also killed more people than cigarettes....these kind of statistics are used for a specific advertising but in reality when applying statistics there are many variables and parameters to consider otherwise it is bullshit. don't argue with me on that remember i am a PHD after all.



*"..I am a PhD after all."*

I'm glad we cleared that up.  I thought you were selling Amway.  

Ok, keep telling us that so we're sure to remember it.  

Weren't you going to post your CV?  

You believe that a PhD in one area makes you an expert in all areas.  

As a PhD, you should know how to present reference but you don't. 



bjg said:


> How many kids you know chose to go in a car knowing that they will have an accident? but all the kids you know taking steroids are doing it on their own choice regardless of the consequences




*Texting and Driving*

How many kids you know chose to go in a car knowing they will have an accident?  but all the kids you know _texting_ are doing it on their own choice regardless of the consequences. 



bjg said:


> .....so that fact alone makes this statistical comparison as Bullshit and non valid since the two cases do not have the same conditions.



So, the deaths from kids texting while driving is exaggerated.  Glad we cleared that up.  



bjg said:


> .....and  to add: i write research articles, i do statistics and i know all the ins and outs of all this so called scientific evidence.



Then as a researcher and mathimagician you can provide a deeper insite into his.  Looking forward to that.  

*Arguing To Be Arguing*
Let take one step backward.  I enjoy detabing issues.  

Evidently, you appear to as well.  You stated...

*"i can show you that you are not up to the level in no time, but i have no time to waste on that."*

If you didn't find this entertaining.  You MAKE time for things you enjoy.

Kenny Croxdale


----------



## Built (Oct 18, 2011)

bjg said:


> Maybe you can keep up some gained muscle after stopping steroids but this is in an ideal situation , practically i have yet to see a long term steroid user ho kept all his muscle gains after stopping steroids for good


All? No. Some? I've seen people keep at least some of their gains, many times. 


bjg said:


> ...he might say he stopped but normally all of them lie about it, when he completely stops he will start going down ,in a year he will loose everything if not more than what he gained.


This is only true if the guy stops lifting and stops overeating. These are the idiots who should't have used to begin with.


bjg said:


> of course he will keep his natural muscle and sometimes even that will diminish..seen it many times, with people who kept working out and kept good diet and they took whatever necessary steps not to loose  muscle..


Obviously not, if they ended up smaller than they were before they went "on". 

You must know a LOT of men who really, REALLY don't know how to eat and train for size. 

Bummer. 


bjg said:


> finally went back to steroids this is the story and here it is not exaggerated at all ....can somebody tell me of a steroid user who completely stopped steroids (not for health reasons) for years i mean totally and sure that he is not lying about it?????


A good friend of mine did this actually. He wanted to marry and have kids, so he went off about five years ago and never went back on. He's got a family now, and competes in strongman competitions. PM me if you want to talk more on this - I'm respecting his privacy as he is not a member on this board. 



bjg said:


> now is damage to the liver exaggerated when steroids are long term used by young people?????


Liver damage comes from orals and prohormones. That's why intelligent users inject their steroids. Intelligent users also get regular bloodwork. 


bjg said:


> Are you healthier if you are young and rely on steroids????


Stop it with the constant focus on kids. Nobody wants to see kids on gear. 


bjg said:


> Is bodybuilding to you only about looks, what about health????


Looks. 

Good health often falls out as a welcome side-effect, but bodybuilding is about looks. Put it this way: I really like how I feel from this, but if it didn't make me look good, I'd find another sport. 



bjg said:


> In Bodybuilding Steroids will slowly kill you while giving you the illusion that you are getting better


Please stop lying. 


bjg said:


> but in reality it is killing you from the inside.


This is just not true. 


bjg said:


> you might want to be tempted to try them and look better temporarily but you have to know when to stop.
> medicine must be treated as medicine when the benefits outweigh the harm period.
> 
> \It is easy to look up the list of young athletes, sprinters, bodybuilders who died young ..was it by bad luck??


There are so few steroid users who have had serious health problems from the substances they take, when it does, it makes the news. It's very uncommon, and considering most of the drugs people take are sold on the black market, this really is remarkable. 


bjg said:


> just google search about the study done on wrestlers who used steroids for years and you will see chocking results  and the percentage of them who died young in their 40's and the percentage of them who has problems.


What percentage of them died young?


bjg said:


> here are the words of the late baseball player Caminity:
> 
> Caminiti's best season was 1996 when, at age 33, he hit 40 homers had 130 runs batted in and a .326 batting average.
> 
> ...


Every professional athlete has injuries. A young friend of mine tore up his knees playing football (no steroids) in high school. Now in his twenties, he's a competitive weightlifter (Olympic lifting) but his lifts will be forever compromised by the knee damage he suffered when he was sixteen. 




bjg said:


> "And now my body's not producing testosterone. You know what that's like? You get lethargic. You get depressed. It's terrible."


This happens to people who never used, as well. My husband went on HRT at 42 and when our doctor gave him his first injection, that was the first time my husband had ever used steroids. 


bjg said:


> Caminiti is the latest in a long line of athletes to die at a young age after admitting to using performance enhancing drugs.


What long line?


bjg said:


> I'm amused when people want to talk about steroids and their impact on the game, I'm more concerned about steroids and their impact on the human being.


Then read up on the benefits as well as the perils. Until then, stop spouting nonsense.  You are making more of an argument FOR using them, than against. The same thing happened with "Reefer Madness" - wildly exaggerated claims about the dangers of marijuana made people simply distrust those who spoke against it - their own experience demonstrated the opposite so they simply ignored anything said by "the MAN" as propaganda.


----------



## bjg (Oct 19, 2011)

BUILT:
 don't you see that there always "if s" in your arguments? in real life there are no "ifs"
sure people can have lower testosterone without using steroids like they can get lung cancer without being smokers...there are many reasons that lead to the same problem , does this justify adding one more reason????because someone had low testosterone and he was not using steroids does this mean that steroids won't lower testosterone? you are using the logic of kids who say i wanna do this and that because my friend is doing it and he is ok.
And sure athletes can have injuries without steroids, but does this mean steroids will not give them injuries??????????
people also are going to die so let us jump from a building we are going to die anyways some day...that is your logic.
By the way the baseball player who had injuries died as i stated in my post...yes he could die from a heart attack with no steroids, but does this mean that he can do steroids and it is not going to kill him???

you answered my question clearly: bodybuilding for you is for LOOKS regardless of health. so i rest my case


----------



## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 19, 2011)

bjg said:


> BUILT:
> don't you see that there always "if s" in your arguments? in real life there are no "ifs"




*Real Life is ALL about IFs* 

Everyday is build on "Ifs".  You never know exactly what going to happen. 

Life is like the song...

*Right Place, Wrong Time  *

I've been in the right place but it was the wrong time...

I was in wrong place but it must have been the right time. 

Sing along: B.B. King Bonnie Raitt Right time, wrong place Air America - YouTube

*Cracker Jacks*

Life is like a box of cracker jacks with the prize in it.  

You never know each day what you're going to come up with...no matter how well you plan it.   



bjg said:


> you answered my question clearly: bodybuilding for you is for LOOKS regardless of health. so i rest my case



*Ancillary Benefit*

Bodybuilding (most sports activities) provides health benefits.  

While the focus is on increasing muscle mass, cutting body fat and performance, one of the side benefits is better health.

*Pushing The Limit*

Serious athlete will push themself to the limit and sometimes beyond.  

*Crossing The Line*

Every serious athlete has unknowingly pushed it beyond the line.  

The problems is you don't exactly where the line is until you pass the line until you get there.  

*Another one Reality's IFs*

That another one of Reality's IFs.  

Kenny Croxdale


----------



## bjg (Oct 19, 2011)

sorry kenny but and this is not to answer you it is just general statements for everybody:
 1-bulking up then cutting fat is not a healthy thing to do
2-increasing muscle mass and cutting fat is healthy to an extent as long as the fat does not drop below a certain limit
3- increasing muscle mass and cutting fat by any means is definitely not healthy 
....taking advil everyday is not healthy ..what about taking a list of crap just to build muscle mass and get a better look. steroids use could  harm you with or without medical assistance and in the long run it will for sure harm you and will NOT make you look better and will not make you stronger it is all temporary ,and frankly i don't see many of the users get medical assistance they just get advice from their friend.
4- Since when more muscle mass = better looks ?
5- Bodybuilding should not be confused with professional bodybuilding where there it is definitely not healthy 
6- steroids and other hormonal and prohormonal substances are medicine and not for recreational purposes they are only to be used as medicine when benefits outweigh the harm or when there are no other solutions, when used for recreational purposes they are not healthy. Show me one single doctor who would prescribe steroids to somebody  (who is not a professional athlete) out of recreational reasons and i'll show you a doctor who is in danger of loosing his permit to practice  why? because it is against the profession to harm people 
7 Steroids are banned substance for medical reasons, what is the other reason?
some advertise it and encourage its use for commercial reasons.

SO please stop arguing for a lost cause.....PEOPLE ARE FREE TO USE STEROIDS AND WHATEVER TO GET BIGGER AND STRONGER BUT THIS DOES NOT GIVE THEM THE RIGHT TO DEFEND STEROID USE.
like people can smoke but they will be fooling themselves by saying cigarettes would not harm them


----------



## heckler7 (Oct 19, 2011)

bjg said:


> sorry kenny but and this is not to answer you it is just general statements for everybody:
> 1-bulking up then cutting fat is not a healthy thing to do
> 2-increasing muscle mass and cutting fat is healthy to an extent as long as the fat does not drop below a certain limit
> 3- increasing muscle mass and cutting fat by any means is definitely not healthy
> ...


I agree with some of this, but its the life I choose. You sound just like my best friend who smokes tons of weed drinks every weekend and eats lots of junk labeled organic and thinks he is healthy and natural at the gym.


----------



## TooOld (Oct 19, 2011)

bjg said:


> sorry kenny but and this is not to answer you it is just general statements for everybody:
> 1-bulking up then cutting fat is not a healthy thing to do
> 2-increasing muscle mass and cutting fat is healthy to an extent as long as the fat does not drop below a certain limit
> 3- increasing muscle mass and cutting fat by any means is definitely not healthy
> ...



What a crock of shit.


----------



## sassy69 (Oct 19, 2011)

bjg said:


> sorry kenny but and this is not to answer you it is just general statements for everybody:
> 1-bulking up then cutting fat is not a healthy thing to do
> 2-increasing muscle mass and cutting fat is healthy to an extent as long as the fat does not drop below a certain limit
> 3- increasing muscle mass and cutting fat by any means is definitely not healthy
> ...



Broadly speaking I think steroids have been overly demonized - you talk about how they should only be used for medical purposes. I think you'll find, as Built noted, there are precious few doctors who are well-versed in the science and use of anabolics, so they are also running on the general fear of them. The perfect example is: OMG running a low dose cycle will shut down your natural test and your peepee will shrink. DONT" DO IT!  Versus: Here use advil. Sure it may eat the lining of your stomach, but just don't use too much. There are sides that come w/ the introduction of anything into your system. 

The other point I want to make is the probably more sad than we really understand, just how underutilized steroids are in medical treatment because of the demonization of them, and marketing / legal push by big pharma to make them bad, and law enforcement shutting down any doctors who do deal in hormones because they're "bad", so instead big pharma's other drugs can be pushed to "fix" whatever it is that is actually due to hormone imbalance. Perfect example - big push to prescribe anti-depressants to treat what is actually low testosterone levels. Which, btw is the exact impact of andropause.  So by making this big deal of "YOU CAN"T DEFEND STEROIDS", the overkill on it is actually pushing the use of other shit so big pharma can make money on stuff that most likely is even less well-understood and promotes a whole rainbow of other sides.


----------



## Calves of Steel (Oct 19, 2011)

A good friend of mine used to get very very bad muscle cramps. He had been going to doctors for years and a few times he was hospitalized for them. To this day they still don't know why they occured. Out of fear that one day his ''heart would cramp'' my friend began using testosterone. He stayed on it for a few months and has not had them since. Those cramps were ruining his life. I completely defend his decision to use steroids illegally and against his doctor's will.

As for me, lifting was always a huge part of my life. I lifted natural for a little over 9 years, and then decided to try steroids and I think they're fun. I take them for a while and really enjoy it, then take some time off, get my bloodwork, then go back on. Honestly, some people (including myself) tolerate them very well. I'm still in great health. My cholesterol is out of this world good. I had it checked right after my last cycle, and my HDL was 61, and LDL was 98!  So yea they're fun. Is there a price to pay? Yes. Is it a big price? Sometimes, but not always, and in my case I think it's well worth the price. You live one time.

If a person naturally produces low levels of testosterone, They can take testosterone, and have normal levels. Isn't that great? Now everyone has a shot at good genetics.


----------



## bjg (Oct 19, 2011)

sassy69 said:


> Broadly speaking I think steroids have been overly demonized - you talk about how they should only be used for medical purposes. I think you'll find, as Built noted, there are precious few doctors who are well-versed in the science and use of anabolics, so they are also running on the general fear of them. The perfect example is: OMG running a low dose cycle will shut down your natural test and your peepee will shrink. DONT" DO IT!  Versus: Here use advil. Sure it may eat the lining of your stomach, but just don't use too much. There are sides that come w/ the introduction of anything into your system.
> 
> The other point I want to make is the probably more sad than we really understand, just how underutilized steroids are in medical treatment because of the demonization of them, and marketing / legal push by big pharma to make them bad, and law enforcement shutting down any doctors who do deal in hormones because they're "bad", so instead big pharma's other drugs can be pushed to "fix" whatever it is that is actually due to hormone imbalance. Perfect example - big push to prescribe anti-depressants to treat what is actually low testosterone levels. Which, btw is the exact impact of andropause.  So by making this big deal of "YOU CAN"T DEFEND STEROIDS", the overkill on it is actually pushing the use of other shit so big pharma can make money on stuff that most likely is even less well-understood and promotes a whole rainbow of other sides.


 
it is a misconception that not too many doctors don't know about steroids....they use them all the time , they just don't use them for fun...bodybuilders when doing a cycle take a dosage ten times or more than when it is used to treat a serious 3d degree burn victim or some other catastrophic medical case.
some people are smart about it just for fun try them for a short period and stop...well if they can do that fine...but unfortunately most don't 
you can try few cigarettes too it won't kill you , iam talking about long term use , somebody who depends on steroids to get the look he/she wants...


----------



## Built (Oct 19, 2011)

bjg said:


> it is a misconception that not too many doctors don't know about steroids....they use them all the time , they just don't use them for fun..


The steroid most commonly used by doctors is cortisone - a catabolic hormone. 

Look around this board for the HRT-related posts. Ask some of the older fellas how hard it was to get appropriate replacement treatment. Ask jagbender - he's gone through hell trying to get appropriate care. My own husband was initially offered a dosing schedule that would have been a disaster - peak and crash, one shot every two weeks. 

My best friend went through this when he first went on HRT (he's sixty). He didn't want to change what the doctor ordered, so he took his first shot, felt great for a few days, then crashed - hard - by about day 9. Day 14 he got another shot - and took over his own dosing. 

He has pinned twice a week ever since (same dose, just spread out) but the PDR suggests dosing this way and that's how the doctors respond. Their goal isn't optimizing care - it's compliance. The understanding is that patients won't multi-dose; that it's easier to encourage compliance with a less frequent dosing schedule. 




bjg said:


> .bodybuilders when doing a cycle take a dosage ten times or more than when it is used to treat a serious 3d degree burn victim or some other catastrophic medical case.


I see. They're safe if you're near death - it's only if you're healthy they are unsafe. 

Gotcha.


bjg said:


> some people are smart about it just for fun try them for a short period and stop...well if they can do that fine...but unfortunately most


MOST? How do you know this is the case for most? 


bjg said:


> don't
> you can try few cigarettes too it won't kill you , iam talking about long term use , somebody who depends on steroids to get the look he/she wants...


I know a lot of people - personally and in real life - who use and who have used steroids to achieve the look they wanted. My friends who use are all intelligent about their use. None of these friends has experienced any untoward side effects or ill health. All of them have followed up with their doctors for regular bloodwork and health checks (thank you socialized medicine!).

Still, your warning is a prudent reminder to understand the substances you take, follow up with blood work, and be respectful of the demands you place upon your body.


----------



## STP0008 (Oct 19, 2011)

Just a puppy...


----------



## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 19, 2011)

bjg said:


> it is a misconception that not too many doctors don't know about steroids....they use them all the time , they just don't use them for fun...



*Doctors and Anabolic Steriods*

Medical doctors are clueless about anabolic steriods.  

*Use Them All The Time*

Medical doctors prescribe corticosteroid.  

Anabolic and corticosteroid are completely different.  


bjg said:


> i am talking about long term use



*Show Me The Bodies*

Present the names and information on them.   

So, this is a no brainer for a PhD with a crystal ball.  

Kenny Croxdale


----------



## bjg (Oct 19, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> *Doctors and Anabolic Steriods*
> 
> Medical doctors are clueless about anabolic steriods.
> 
> ...


 
anabolic steroids were developed originally for medical purposes, thus to be used by doctors and were used by doctors long before they started using them in sports....
my relative is a doctor (oncologist) wish he has time for our debate but i can tell you he can teach all of us about steroids and probably more than any article you can dig.
another doctor my friend is an orthopedic surgeon and sports medicine and he too can teach all of us here about steroids...
doctors study many years ..so i don't think if we read few articles here and there and interpret them the way we want this means  that we know more
it is like you reading some engineering articles on topics and you come argue with me that i don't know anything...it maybe i just have no time for you.
you just cannot become an expert on a specific subject without studying the basis, taking courses  , you just can't be an expert on antennas for example just by reading few articles ..you need to study and take many university courses then read the articles.


----------



## sassy69 (Oct 19, 2011)

bjg said:


> anabolic steroids were developed originally for medical purposes, thus to be used by doctors and were used by doctors long before they started using them in sports....
> my relative is a doctor (oncologist) wish he has time for our debate but i can tell you he can teach all of us about steroids and probably more than any article you can dig.
> another doctor my friend is an orthopedic surgeon and sports medicine and he too can teach all of us here about steroids...
> doctors study many years ..so i don't think if we read few articles here and there and interpret them the way we want this means  that we know more
> ...




I've heard doctors get about 9 hrs of nutrition education in a complete MD. Just because you're a doctor does not mean you're going to find every one of them w/ an extended amount of information on steroids. As I mentioned most are heavily encouraged to NOT mess w/ them because the pharma industry and the demonization of them by law enforcement. Also as I mentioned, in conversation w/ friends and a plethora of anecdotal stories from men and women about doctors who have readily and w/o hesitation, put them on anti-depressants instead of even bothering to look at a basic hormone profile to determine if test, progest or estro levels were a possible / probable source.


----------



## Built (Oct 20, 2011)

bjg said:


> anabolic steroids were developed originally for medical purposes, thus to be used by doctors and were used by doctors long before they started using them in sports....
> my relative is a doctor (oncologist) wish he has time for our debate but i can tell you he can teach all of us about steroids and probably more than any article you can dig.
> another doctor my friend is an orthopedic surgeon and sports medicine and he too can teach all of us here about steroids...
> doctors study many years ..so i don't think if we read few articles here and there and interpret them the way we want this means  that we know more
> ...



Prove it. 
*
Ask your ortho buddies the following question: *
A man comes to you with injuries to his knee. He is not a competitive athlete and will never be drug-tested. He will have his knee reconstructed, and is in his forties. A hormone panel is run, and his testosterone is found to be in the low level of normal. The man is not obese, and is reasonable shape. His blood sugars are slightly high, but not high enough for a diagnosis of type II diabetes. His lipid levels show mild elevation and a slightly unfavourable ratio. He is reasonably active, and on no other medications. 

You decide to prescribe anabolics to help him heal the injury following surgery to reconstruct his ACL and trim away excess cartilage. The donor tissue for the ACL came from his own hamstring. 

a) which drugs will you use to help him recover?
b) describe how each of these drugs will assist as he recovers from the surgery.
c) indicate the doses you will use, injection frequency, and duration of this treatment. 
d) describe, in detail, how you will withdraw treatment and ensure the man's own testosterone production will be restored.


----------



## Gazhole (Oct 20, 2011)

bjg said:


> 1-bulking up then cutting fat is not a healthy thing to do



Why? Increasing lean tissue leads to numerous health benefits and 
reducing your bodyfat is also associated with numerous health benefits.


- Increased muscle mass leads to better insulin sensitivity (Relative Muscle Mass Is Inversely Associated with Insulin Resistance and Prediabetes. Findings from The Third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey)

- Low muscle mass and high central adiposity are predictors of early mortality (Decreased muscle mass and increased central adiposity are independently related to mortality in older men)

- Muscle mass is important in the prevention of diabetes, obesity, and osteoporosis (The underappreciated role of muscle in health and disease)

- Decreased muscle mass is associated with cancer and higher intraabdominal fat is a risk factor for cardiac death (Anthropometric estimates of muscle and fat mass in relation to cardiac and cancer mortality in men: the Paris Prospective Study)


So, and forgive my french, you're talking out of your fucking arse.



bjg said:


> 2-increasing muscle mass and cutting fat is healthy to an extent as long as the fat does not drop below a certain limit



Oh and pray tell what is this magical limit? Forgetting the fact than you just contradicted yourself. What is the difference between bulking up and increasing muscle mass? They are the same thing.

I know people who comfortably walk around at 10-12% bodyfat or even slightly lower all year round, have done for years, and are healthy as hell. One guy i know is in his fifties and has sub-10% bodyfat. He does not look or act like a man in his fifties. How is this in any way unhealthy?

Bodybuilders don't maintain the competition level of fat all year round because it's too taxing on the body and the mind to diet so hard all the time, so what's the problem?

Also, this study shows that the healthy lower limit of bodyfat is around 4-6% before lean mass is sacrificed (unhealthy) which is around the bodybuilder competition level. So again, fuck you. In the ass.
(Lower limit of body fat in healthy active men)



bjg said:


> 3- increasing muscle mass and cutting fat by any means is definitely not healthy



What. The. Fuck. So point one is "bulking and cutting is unhealthy" point two is "increasing muscle and cutting is healthy to a certain extent" and point three is "increasing muscle and cutting is not healthy".

Are you fucking high? Or just an idiot?



bjg said:


> 4- Since when more muscle mass = better looks ?



Since the times in the distant past when men were men, women were men, children were men, and even the fucking animals were men. Since before television, ready meals, fast food, and laziness infiltrated the minds of the general public and festered there like a cancer convincing them that one more snack cake is fine, they deserve to be loved unconditionally, everybody will find "the one", and the illusion that everything will be given them on a plate.

Increased muscle mass exhibits an ability to DO THINGS. Stronger, bigger muscles on a toned lean frame doesn't only reflect physical health, fitness, and physical ability but a mental strength to resist being a lazy good-for-nothing tub of lard on a sofa somewhere.

If you think a huge flabby bingo wing is more attractive than a shapely tricep and peaked bicep then you need help.



bjg said:


> 5- Bodybuilding should not be confused with professional bodybuilding where there it is definitely not healthy



Professional denotes only that they do it as their primary source of income. If i do a bodybuilding show for free, then the next one i get paid enough to leave my job then technically i am a professional. Where in that ambiguous time period do i go from healthy to unhealthy in your mind?

I'm not saying all bodybuilders are healthy, Andreas Munzer was incredibly unhealthy, but Arnold, Franco, Zane...they are all old men now. And last time i checked they were doing just fine. Ronnie Coleman is getting there and he's a more modern bodybuilder, i know far more people at his age who are unhealthy 
from doing nothing.



bjg said:


> 6- steroids and other hormonal and prohormonal substances are medicine and not for recreational purposes they are only to be used as medicine when benefits outweigh the harm or when there are no other solutions, when used for recreational purposes they are not healthy.



If you used steroids incorrectly for a completely legitimate medicinal purpose then would that be healthier than a bodybuilder using them the right way to get bigger?

What "harm" are you talking about when you cycle a compound the correct way?

- Inject to protect your liver.
- Use only the minimum dosage required to get results.
- Only stay on the cycle a short period of time.
- Correctly use PCT to restore natural functions.
- Get bloodwork done pre-, peri-, and post-cycle. Adjust cycle accordingly (including cutting it short) if problems arise.
- Combine the cycle with good diet, exercise.
- Act like a responsible adult and realize you're fucking around with something that could potentially kill you.

And before you jizz your pants at that last point, you can die fairly easily by taking over-the-counter completely legal pain killers like paracetamol. I would say that most people don't even check the dosage before throwing a few painkillers down them, then drinking alcohol or something without a thought to the consequences.

Don't hide behind the fact that steroids are illegal. Legality does not alter the effects of the compound, just it's perceived safety. A dangerous situation, no?



bjg said:


> 7 Steroids are banned substance for medical reasons, what is the other reason?



Retarded laws. Idiots like you blowing shit out of proportion.



bjg said:


> SO please stop arguing for a lost cause.....PEOPLE ARE FREE TO USE STEROIDS AND WHATEVER TO GET BIGGER AND STRONGER BUT THIS DOES NOT GIVE THEM THE RIGHT TO DEFEND STEROID USE.
> like people can smoke but they will be fooling themselves by saying cigarettes would not harm them



Do you want a list of all the studies that prove smoking is bad? Do you want me to compare it to the list of studies that show steroids are bad? It would be like me whipping my dick out at a Lex Steele fan convention. Laughable.

Of course people have the right to defend what ever they want. Even steroid abuse. Who are you to take that right away from me, you cunt? I'm not going out on the street selling dbol to children. I'm saying look at the facts, not blindly fearmongering.

Also, for the record, from a personal moral standpoint i'm against AAS use. I have never, and will never, use this stuff. I don't want it, i don't need it, but unlike you i've taken the time to understand it and make an informed decision for the right reasons.

If you want to have a battle of wits on this forum, don't come in unarmed again. Kay?

Edit: Wow, i swear a lot. Nothing personal.


----------



## bjg (Oct 20, 2011)

ive seen coleman off season he looks like a bag f.....about 50 lbs more tha his normal weight , then in competition he is lean etc...this habit of gaining so much weight then cut down is very unhealthy (when it is a habit ) when done year after year , any regular dramatic weight wings are very bad to your health.
Professional athletes are not like us Gazhole they go to the extreme to achieve perfomance  to earn money. their working life is too short and they have to do the maximum in a short time...most of them suffer after retirement which come early. 
A soccer player is labeled "old" when he is about 35, a boxer retires in his 30's, etc.. most of these athletes had to take supplements to ba able to cope with the rythm of their work. many pro bodybuilders have health problems in their 50's because of long term abuse to their body...a sport when pushed beyond your natural limits by means of drugs becomes unhealthy itself  , too much stress on your body because not all the parts in your body are getting stronger at a time.
my friend is a doctor and he is representative of a pharamaceutical company , he took steroids for a long time and was a power lifter, now at nearly 50 he is having hip joint replacement (prosthetic joints) and he himself with his own words he balmed it on steroids and years of overlifting. i cannot give his name it is not my right , he lives in Texas austin.
and Gazhole all medicine are basically harmful at some level they are only taken when the benefit outweigh the harm, this is why there is an "overdosage" warning in the label of every medicine....radiation therapy for example can cause cancer and they use radiation to treat cancer , Why , because at this stage there are no more risks the patient is in bad shape to start with and nothing to loose. 
Of course you can use steroids for short periods of time , but in the long run it will catch up with you, medicine taken to protect your liver is probably as bad as the steroids themselves , it may hurt you somewhere else.
WIth steroids your body will be looking good for a while then you will go down , the again steroids...and then again go down..whereas without steroids you are not going through tdramatic cycles and your body is improving all the time. Let us see a man like coleman in 5 years how his body will be able to respond to exercise if he stops all the crap he is ingesting.


----------



## bjg (Oct 20, 2011)

Built said:


> Prove it.
> *
> Ask your ortho buddies the following question: *
> A man comes to you with injuries to his knee. He is not a competitive athlete and will never be drug-tested. He will have his knee reconstructed, and is in his forties. A hormone panel is run, and his testosterone is found to be in the low level of normal. The man is not obese, and is reasonable shape. His blood sugars are slightly high, but not high enough for a diagnosis of type II diabetes. His lipid levels show mild elevation and a slightly unfavourable ratio. He is reasonably active, and on no other medications.
> ...



built he will for sure laugh at me , no offense but he  has no time for our bullshit on the forum, i can barely go out for dinner with him, but believe me he treats sports injuries and he probably has read more books and taken more courses than the national library the guy is a nerd.
i can prove my point myself you can go ahead and read any articles you want, in biomedical signal processing , i 'll give you a year, then come and argue with me


----------



## Gazhole (Oct 20, 2011)

bjg said:


> ive seen coleman off season he looks like a bag f.....about 50 lbs more tha his normal weight , then in competition he is lean etc...this habit of gaining so much weight then cut down is very unhealthy (when it is a habit ) when done year after year , any regular dramatic weight wings are very bad to your health.



Is it? The body is naturally geared towards cycles of over-eating and cycles of undereating. This is why we have multiple stores of energy such as glycogen and fat. This ability evolved over millions of years of not having food available in supermarkets whenever we want it. We needed to be able to store a lot of energy for those times when food was scarce.



bjg said:


> Professional athletes are not like us Gazhole they go to the extreme to achieve perfomance  to earn money. their working life is too short and they have to do the maximum in a short time...most of them suffer after retirement which come early.



Whereas the regular Joe suffers his entire life and dies early because he's lazy, doesn't exercise, eats like shit, and smokes and drinks indiscriminately. I'll take joint problems over premature cardiac death or obesity any day, thanks.



bjg said:


> A soccer player is labeled "old" when he is about 35, a boxer retires in his 30's, etc.. most of these athletes had to take supplements to ba able to cope with the rythm of their work. many pro bodybuilders have health problems in their 50's because of long term abuse to their body...a sport when pushed beyond your natural limits by means of drugs becomes unhealthy itself  , too much stress on your body because not all the parts in your body are getting stronger at a time.



Hence proper exercise programming. Athletes retire because your body ages and can't recover as well as it used to. This is nothing to do with drugs, it's called getting old.



bjg said:


> my friend is a doctor and he is representative of a pharamaceutical company , he took steroids for a long time and was a power lifter, now at nearly 50 he is having hip joint replacement (prosthetic joints) and he himself with his own words he balmed it on steroids and years of overlifting. i cannot give his name it is not my right , he lives in Texas austin.



My friend is an elite athlete. He lives on the moon and told me steroids made his dick bigger and doubled his bank account. This is meaningless crap. If you want to make a point, post some research like i have.



bjg said:


> and Gazhole all medicine are basically harmful at some level they are only taken when the benefit outweigh the harm, this is why there is an "overdosage" warning in the label of every medicine....radiation therapy for example can cause cancer and they use radiation to treat cancer , Why , because at this stage there are no more risks the patient is in bad shape to start with and nothing to loose.



Thanks for the pointless tangent.

My point was that steroids are no more dangerous than any other medicine, which you seem to agree with. So long as you take them right, whats the problem?



bjg said:


> Of course you can use steroids for short periods of time , but in the long run it will catch up with you, medicine taken to protect your liver is probably as bad as the steroids themselves , it may hurt you somewhere else.



You can also take ibuprofen for a short time before it causes stomach ulcers and thins your blood. Your point please?



bjg said:


> WIth steroids your body will be looking good for a while then you will go down , the again steroids...and then again go down..whereas without steroids you are not going through tdramatic cycles and your body is improving all the time. Let us see a man like coleman in 5 years how his body will be able to respond to exercise if he stops all the crap he is ingesting.



Yes, lets. Lets also see if you get anywhere near the direction of being correct within 5 years.


----------



## jagbender (Oct 20, 2011)

I am 50 Y/o and on TRT under Doctor supervision. I am hypogonadal and take Testosterone weekly. I started a serious fat loss program 2-26-11 
I have acheived these results from SERIOUS diet and EXERCISE. see my journal.


----------



## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 20, 2011)

bjg said:


> my relative is a doctor (oncologist) wish he has time for our debate but i can tell you he can teach all of us about steroids and probably more than any article you can dig.
> another doctor my friend is an orthopedic surgeon and sports medicine and he too can teach all of us here about steroids....



*Medical Doctors Are NOT Pharmacologist*

...study disease.  Medical doctors have MAYBE 6 hours of pharmacology.  

*Medical Morons*

Any medical doctor who considers him/herself an expert on drugs is a moron.  They are clueless.  



bjg said:


> doctors study many years ...



*Study Disease*

They study disease not pharmacology.

*PhD*

For a guy who supposedly has a PhD, you one of the dumbest indviduals I've ever seen.  

*NO Time*

And for a guy who had NO time...as you stated, "i can show you that you are not up to the level in no time, but i have no time to waste on that."...you sure MAKE time.

Kenny Croxdale


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## bjg (Oct 20, 2011)

my point gazhole is that steroids are unnecessary risk and are not worth it , you can be patient and accomplish what you want to accomplish without them, it will last you for life and will not have to worry about it.
i am 50 now and as strong as fast as  i was at 30 ...no problem ...this was done through hard work. All my workout buddies ranging from 20 years old to 40years old cannot keep up with me in the gym with their roids their ephedrine, their creatine and whatever they take and trust me most of them are in competition shape..like you they claim that they know it all ...i make fun of them (joking of course) in the gym everytime we challenge each other in push ups or pull ups or running  and even in some lifting...no contest 
i can stop lifting for a year and get back to where i am now in a month. 
So what is this big deal if you get to lift 300 instead of 400 (with cheating) ???
so what if your arms are 17 inches instead of 18? since when 21 inch arms are better looking than 17 inch arms???????
what is the big deal?? are steroids and other stupidities ingested worth it? just for the fact that you have to remember taking your pills every day and so is revolting to me...it is like you can't live without your accessories. why all that???????? can't you do the same by just working your ass?
Ironically in my gym we are around 3 or 4 who never used steroids among maybe 50 ..and guess what? we probably are the strongest and most fit in the gym , we don't look the biggest by no means and not the best bodybulding shape at all, many of them can compete now in pro competitions , however as far as physical strength and health and stamina they just fall short...looks only..what a shame


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## Kenny Croxdale (Oct 20, 2011)

bjg said:


> my point gazhole is that steroids are unnecessary risk and are not worth it , you can be patient and accomplish what you want to accomplish without them, it will last you for life and will not have to worry about it.
> i am 50 now and as strong as fast as  i was at 30 ...no problem ...this was done through hard work. All my workout buddies ranging from 20 years old to 40years old cannot keep up with me in the gym with their roids their ephedrine, their creatine and whatever they take and trust me most of them are in competition shape..like you they claim that they know it all ...i make fun of them (joking of course) in the gym everytime we challenge each other in push ups or pull ups or running  and even in some lifting...no contest
> i can stop lifting for a year and get back to where i am now in a month.
> So what is this big deal if you get to lift 300 instead of 400 (with cheating) ???
> ...



*You're A GOD!*

How much would it cost for me to get an 8 X 10 color print of you to hang on my wall?  

Kenny Croxdale


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## .V. (Oct 20, 2011)

OP, yes they are and no they are not.

I'm on prescribed testosterone and have to get blood work 2x a year because of the LDL risk.

Actually, what's bad is the hormone problems that come from incorrect usage or usage at too young an age, the overconsumption of protein damaging the kidneys of some users, and the poor dietary habits of other users (incorrect fat/carb/protein ratios).  These are what lead to AAS related health problems.

My suggestion, avoid them for now, reach your maximum potential, and when you reach the point that you've gone as far as you possibly can on your own natural testosterone....THEN consider them.

16 - 24 or 25 year olds?  They are already on steroids...the best kind...testosterone made naturally by the body in very large amounts.


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## bjg (Oct 20, 2011)

jagbender said:


> I am 50 Y/o and on TRT under Doctor supervision. I am hypogonadal and take Testosterone weekly. I started a serious fat loss program 2-26-11
> I have acheived these results from SERIOUS diet and EXERCISE. see my journal.
> 
> 
> http://s732.photobucket.com/albums/ww330/jagbender/weight loss/?action=view&current=a612980d.pbw



exactly keywords here : Doctor's supervision  , EXERCISE


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## Gazhole (Oct 20, 2011)

bjg said:


> my point gazhole is that steroids are unnecessary risk and are not worth it , you can be patient and accomplish what you want to accomplish without them, it will last you for life and will not have to worry about it.
> i am 50 now and as strong as fast as  i was at 30 ...no problem ...this was done through hard work. All my workout buddies ranging from 20 years old to 40years old cannot keep up with me in the gym with their roids their ephedrine, their creatine and whatever they take and trust me most of them are in competition shape..like you they claim that they know it all ...i make fun of them (joking of course) in the gym everytime we challenge each other in push ups or pull ups or running  and even in some lifting...no contest
> i can stop lifting for a year and get back to where i am now in a month.
> So what is this big deal if you get to lift 300 instead of 400 (with cheating) ???
> ...



For the record my gym is a natural gym. I don't take steroids and never will. You're preaching to the converted with me. What i'm saying is that you have an incredibly narrow minded view of steroids.

The guys in your gym who use them and are still piss weak are obviously a bunch of pussies and would be pussies if they used them or not. Similarly, if you took them you would be even better than you are now. They aren't magically going to make somebody who eats and trains badly into the next Mr. O. Its just unfortunate that a large majority of AAS users are morons who take them without knowing what they're doing, creating all these stereotypes and giving people who use them properly a bad rap.

Its not about the drugs themselves, its about the kind of people who end up using them. A lot are idiots, some aren't and those are the ones who get all the results with minimal health consequences.


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## bjg (Oct 20, 2011)

Gazhole said:


> For the record my gym is a natural gym. I don't take steroids and never will. You're preaching to the converted with me.


 
ok then glad to hear that


----------



## bjg (Oct 20, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> *Medical Doctors Are NOT Pharmacologist*
> 
> ...study disease.  Medical doctors have MAYBE 6 hours of pharmacology.
> 
> ...


 kenny 
point 1: doctors study more on the effects of steroids on the body than any of the pharmacologist you know.
pharmacologists study how steroids are made  etc...
doctors use them to treat patients
point 2: thanx for the compliments about me being dumb....i do have some recommendation letters (i just keep them in my file) coming from top scientists and engineers i worked with, university chancelier, and my college transcripts, and of course not counting the patents i have... so i really really with all my respect don't think (nor that i care )that you are qualified enough to judge my level of intelligence (Mr. should we ban cars!!!!)


----------



## jagbender (Oct 20, 2011)

bjg said:


> exactly keywords here : Doctor's supervision , EXERCISE


 
80% is diet IMO


----------



## metalmayhem (Oct 20, 2011)

Billy Madison - Ultimate Insult (Academic Decathlon) - YouTube

For you bjg.


----------



## ldyzluvdis06 (Oct 20, 2011)

metalmayhem said:


> Billy Madison - Ultimate Insult (Academic Decathlon) - YouTube
> 
> For you bjg.


----------



## Built (Oct 20, 2011)

bjg said:


> anabolic steroids were developed originally for medical purposes, thus to be used by doctors and were used by doctors long before they started using them in sports....
> my relative is a doctor (oncologist) wish he has time for our debate but i can tell you he can teach all of us about steroids and probably more than any article you can dig.
> another doctor my friend is an orthopedic surgeon and sports medicine and he too can teach all of us here about steroids...
> doctors study many years ..so i don't think if we read few articles here and there and interpret them the way we want this means  that we know more
> ...





Kenny Croxdale said:


> *You're A GOD!*
> 
> How much would it cost for me to get an 8 X 10 color print of you to hang on my wall?
> 
> Kenny Croxdale



Repped!



bjg said:


> built he will for sure laugh at me , no offense but he  has no time for our bullshit on the forum, i can barely go out for dinner with him, but believe me he treats sports injuries and he probably has read more books and taken more courses than the national library the guy is a nerd.
> i can prove my point myself you can go ahead and read any articles you want, in biomedical signal processing , i 'll give you a year, then come and argue with me


Okay. You can become an expert in mutivariate statistics and perhaps satiety research (my pet topic) and in a year, we can whip our dicks out and have a pissing contest. (I'll have to borrow somebody's dick, PM me to volunteer...) (NO DON'T!) 

The guy is a nerd. Excellent. He's my kind of people. 

Don't bother asking though. I guarantee you, he would not know how to answer this question properly. I already know for sure YOU don't know how to answer the question. 


Jagbender, was it easy to find a physician who was knowledgeable enough to give you proper medical treatment for your condition? Perhaps take a few minutes to describe the steps you had to take in order to procure adequate, appropriate medical treatment for the clearly defined hypogonadism for which you required medical care. How many months did it take, how many doctors did you need to see, and how did you finally find a physician who had the knowledge and expertise to treat your symptoms? How complicated is your treatment protocol, and is the dosing and injection frequency in line with published, peer-reviewed research for male hypogonadism?


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## bjg (Oct 20, 2011)

ok people next time i have a health problem i will not go to my doctor i'll just go on a forum like this one and get treated.


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## Built (Oct 20, 2011)

If it's a hormone-related illness (hypogonadism, hypothyroidism) you may well find better information and support online than you will through a physician. 

I personally find this horrifying, but unfortunately, it appears to be the norm. Hypothyroidism for instance is often so poorly treated, there are networks of hypothyroid individuals who support each other and help each other find the few rare doctors who know how to adequately treat this condition. These are often the same doctors who understand how to treat hypogonadism also, which is how I came to understand the magnitude of the problem.


----------



## jagbender (Oct 20, 2011)

Built has a very good point. I have had Hypogonadism and hypothyroidism for a few years. I have seen all kinds or Doctors, Holistic MD's regular physicians, Endo's and Uroligists over the last few years. I fought with and left about 3 doctors because they refused to treat me because of Testing guidlines. Testosterone levels for most labs run "Normal" from 193-740 Free The problem is 740 may be normal for a 20 year olds and 193 normal for a 80 year old. So doctors don't like to treat hypogonasism or hypothyroidism if your blood work is within "normal" ranges. 

The first Doc I went to gave me Androgel, Expensive 300.00 a month plus it is messy ineffective and dangerous to my daughter and wife. After 3 months and another blood test and complaing profusly that it was not working blood levels were still low. I asked for a "more effective" testosterone. This Doctor was probably the most easy guy to get along with and perscribed Test C for me. The problem is that he did not know crap. He dosed me @ 140 mg ever other week. Not really enough to correct the low T. 

Built kept urging me to fid the right doctor. I kept searching and could only find Steroid mills set up like Doctors. Charging insane abounts of money for perscriptions that I would have to get filled @ their pharmacy which didn't take insurance the cost would have been 3-5 K a year. 


I stumbled upon my current doctor and he immediatle changed my dosing to 130 mg per week and ordered blood work. he wants to get my Testosterone levels around 800 estradiol near 20 Lipid profiles and bloodpressure in check. 

I had to teach myself about TRT I had to educate Doctors! 
With the help of Built and pure determination a lot of Studying and frustration I am finally winning the ballt of the bulge @ 50 years old! 

My current Doctor has told me he is impressed with how much I know and we debate my protocol. just recently me Estrdiol went too highh for the doctor (72) my previous results were 47 too high for me. After the labs showed my Estradiol @ 72 my doc perscribed me Anastrazole 1 mg three times a week. Talk about overkill! 

I asked him if I could reduce the about because I was feeling crappy and I told him I was sensitive to some medicines. He agreed. I had bloodwork yesterday and a follow up next week. I guess we will see next week.


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## jagbender (Oct 20, 2011)

Getting proper treatment for sub clinical hypothyroidism was as much of a battle. BUT once you get diagnosed all you have to do is tell your next doctor I'm taking x amount of Armour and they keep on writing. I guess they figure someone else has made the diagnosis and his blood work is in "range" so all is good.


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## jagbender (Oct 20, 2011)

bjg said:


> ok people next time i have a health problem i will not go to my doctor i'll just go on a forum like this one and get treated.


 
Your doctor MAY not be your best choice. And neither is a Forum. 

You have to educate yourself and sometimes your Doctor. 

The Doctors and health system, for the most part, in the USA is dirty. 
Why do Doctors always perscribe the newest drugs? Bcause they are better that proven drugs. Are they safer? Definatly not cheaper!

Tested my the FDA? What a horror story there. Politicians and doctor are the big Pharma's pockets.


bjg your being an ass


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## bjg (Oct 20, 2011)

jagbender said:


> Your doctor MAY not be your best choice. And neither is a Forum.
> 
> You have to educate yourself and sometimes your Doctor.
> 
> ...


jag i am not from the US neither are my doctors 
as for being an ass i have to get something straight :
so steroids have been there for what 100 years?? and since then they are just sold in pharmacies they are a miracle cure for many diseases but nobody is supposed to use them, doctors even if they know by chance  they just brush you off or ignore you because if they prescribe to you steroids and cure you the boogy man will come and take them. However, people on the forum read few articles on steroids written mostly by doctors (who don't know about steroids and are afraid to use them) and  go on prescribing to each other this miracle cure and trying it on themselves,...and if anyone dies from it the argument is: it is not steroids  he could have died from a car accident !
 cmonn guys just get real!!!

and BUILT:
the medical stuff you read on the internet and that is allowing you to state that doctors don't know shit are for the most part bullshit or if they have any value are written by Doctors (who incidently don't know shit)
so go figure
next time i have a problem i go on the "internet" the god of all knowledge since the information descended to the web directly from god and ask : internet oh internet please save my ass!!!!


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## jagbender (Oct 20, 2011)

bjg said:


> jag i am not from the US neither are my doctors


 
You show you are located in Texas.  U Mexican?


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## bjg (Oct 20, 2011)

jagbender said:


> You show you are located in Texas.  U Mexican?


not in texas anymore and not mexican , wish i was... nice place mexico i am pretty far from you right now


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## Built (Oct 20, 2011)

bjg - I am speaking from personal experience with my own thyroid hrt, and I asked jagbender to pipe in with his own, personal experience with male HRT. 

He and I met on a low carb dieting board many years ago, and have networked with hundreds of others with similar hormonal conditions who have not been able to procure appropriate care.

I am currently working with my sister's private consulting physician to find appropriate care for her digestive and chronic pain issues which were in large part caused by five years of inappropriate care by mainstream medicine (I won't get into detail, but google narcotic bowel syndrome)

I am not citing articles here. I'm talking to actual human beings who will confirm with you what I have said - many doctors, including endocrinologists, do not understand hormonal therapy. 

Anabolic steroids are, for the most part, no longer taught in med school and are not part of the lexicon of drugs prescribed by physicians to treat injury or disease - not because they are not safe, and not because they are not effective but rather, because they are too controversial. 

Here's a recent example, a 2004 review of treatment options for patellofemoral pain syndrome. 

Seems very few agents work well for knee pain - fortunately, we have nandrolone. Pharmacotherapy for patellofemora... [Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

Sadly, we cannot recommend it.

Is it safe? Compared to what - NSAIDS reduce pain but interfere with healing; cortisone reduces pain, but interferes with healing and can melt your bones; tricyclic antidepressants can mask pain but may also make you suicidal... on the other hand, nandrolone reduces the cause of pain while it makes you bigger, stronger, and perhaps a bit hairier. Your call.

Is nandrolone expensive? Nope. Actually, it's dirt cheap.

Does it work? Yep. Too bad it's too "controversial".

"There is only limited evidence for the effectiveness of NSAIDs for short term pain reduction in PFPS. The evidence for the effect of glycosaminoglycan polysulphate is conflicting and merits further investigation. The anabolic steroid nandrolone may be effective, *but is too controversial* for treatment of PFPS."

Nandrolone has been shown to reduce vertebral pain. Nandrolone decanoate: pharmacological propert... [Clin Rheumatol. 1995] - PubMed - NCBI

I know of no little old ladies in the US or Canada who receive this treatment.

There is simply no money to be made with these off-patent treatments which have already been demonstrated to be both safe and effective. Because there's no financial incentive, and because of the media-made controversy, their use in North America has all but disappeared for these purposes.


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## stepaukas (Oct 20, 2011)

like the old pf flyers shoes, drugs, epo, steroids or hgh or whatever you may take, make you jump higher and run faster, lift more and just make you better. your reaction time is faster hitting a ball, then it goes farther.. line up in the 100 meters. you trained all your life, are good at what you do, are in the ncaa championships, and the 5 that beat u are on the juice. aint fair. take your masking agent and you pass the drug pee test..

at mile 90 of a hard fast hilly windy 110 mile road race, i watch the guys on epo pull away.. i see it all the time.. thats why i never win a race. i hang in there but get beat. sure others are better, younger faster stronger, but some beat you cause of the drugs.. the masking agent is your friend....

it sucks, but i love the competition and dont mind coming in 2 minutes behind the cheaters in a 80 mile hard race.. 

personally, 10th place is way better than cheating to be first..


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## jagbender (Oct 21, 2011)

stepaukas said:


> like the old pf flyers shoes, drugs, epo, steroids or hgh or whatever you may take, make you jump higher and run faster, lift more and just make you better. your reaction time is faster hitting a ball, then it goes farther.. line up in the 100 meters. you trained all your life, are good at what you do, are in the ncaa championships, and the 5 that beat u are on the juice. aint fair. take your masking agent and you pass the drug pee test..
> 
> at mile 90 of a hard fast hilly windy 110 mile road race, i watch the guys on epo pull away.. i see it all the time.. thats why i never win a race. i hang in there but get beat. sure others are better, younger faster stronger, but some beat you cause of the drugs.. the masking agent is your friend....
> 
> ...


 

Are you riding road bicycles?


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## metalmayhem (Oct 21, 2011)

stepaukas said:


> like the old pf flyers shoes, drugs, epo, steroids or hgh or whatever you may take, make you jump higher and run faster, lift more and just make you better. your reaction time is faster hitting a ball, then it goes farther.. line up in the 100 meters. you trained all your life, are good at what you do, are in the ncaa championships, and the 5 that beat u are on the juice. aint fair. take your masking agent and you pass the drug pee test..
> 
> at mile 90 of a hard fast hilly windy 110 mile road race, i watch the guys on epo pull away.. i see it all the time.. thats why i never win a race. i hang in there but get beat. sure others are better, younger faster stronger, but some beat you cause of the drugs.. the masking agent is your friend....
> 
> ...


 

Life's not fair. Get over it. People who say 'it's not fair' are really pathetic, to be perfectly honest. Just my opinion, but wouldn't it be better to train harder, diet harder, cycle harder than to sit and whine about life not being fair? 
Or maybe, you're not that good. Maybe the other cyclists pull away because they did all of the above, while you sat around on a message board crying about it.

Is ingesting caffeine cheating? What about the PF flyers? What about gluco fuel? Is that cheating? What if you have a lighter bike making it easier for you to pull away? Did you put a special chemical inyour tires that give youan unfair advantage? Are your clothes lighter? Is that cheating? Does each bike weigh the same? Did you have exactly the same thing for breakfast that morning? Or more importantly, exactly the same thing for dinner the night before?  

I'm not sure where this great debate started but it's really annoying. You have people who just hate steroids, for whatever reason, whether it's becuase of their own fears, they were picked on by some douch bag who was juiced, or their girlfriend broke up with them for a musclehead. So they hate on all the users, like bjg, who just can't get over it that people are going to do what they want to do. Not what bjg thinks is correct because he's friends with a doctor, or knows through his life experience that 'steroids are bad'. Enough already. 

Quit hating, get to the root of your hatred for people who choose to dabble and find happiness. It will eat you alive if you don't. Really look at yourself. You are on a message board, about bodybuilding, about steroids, and you're going to change the World? S.T.F.U.

You could quote JAMA, Geraldo, and the Surgeon General and guess what? NO ONE CARES. 

Now go work on that and I hope you find whatever is eating you up inside. Because you're really saying, 'I'm not good enough, I can't win, so I will hate on those who beat me.'


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## bjg (Oct 21, 2011)

metalmayhem said:


> Quit hating, get to the root of your hatred for people who choose to dabble and find happiness. It will eat you alive if you don't. Really look at yourself. You are on a message board, about bodybuilding, about steroids, and you're going to change the World? S.T.F.U.
> 
> Now go work on that and I hope you find whatever is eating you up inside. Because you're really saying, 'I'm not good enough, I can't win, so I will hate on those who beat me.'




Since when Bodybuilding = steroids??? in what book you found that?
it is people like you who are totally useless without steroids that invented this...because you like it or not without your roids you probably hate yourself and the way you look.
It is people like you who ruined the reputation of sports like body building or any other sport.
sports = health, beauty, determination and accomplishment
steroids = cheating because we are lazy asses.

steroid philosophy is that the end results justifies the means: if the end result is good then the means to get there must be ok.
like if one gets wealthy then it is ok how he got there maybe stealing, maybe killing does not matter


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## bjg (Oct 21, 2011)

it is strange and funny how in another thread under "supplements" entiteled: FDA warns about the use of some drugs for loosing weight..and they list all the products to be avoided.
then i see that the responses from forum members: Thanks god i did not use any of these etc....
now my question is:
How come do you trust FDA in not using some supplements that could be harmful to your health ,, and then go on defending steroids use ..does FDA recommend steroid use??????????????


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## Built (Oct 21, 2011)

bjg, I tried to reach you as a person, and I tried online. I once felt the same way you do, and have slowly - grudgingly - come to realize I had been swayed by the same scare tactics once reserved for the evils of marijuana, so I naively believed there may be some way to approach you, one person-of-science to another. 

Instead, you're letting emotion rather than logic drive your posts, and the style of your arguments relies upon hyperbole and straw-men. You're so ensconced in your position, you give the appearance of having no interest in the facts. Believe it or not - and it shames me to say it - but I've been there. I understand. 

It took me YEARS of reading to come to the position I now hold. The cognitive dissonance simply became too heavy to bear, and grudgingly, I found myself with no other choice but to accept the facts - even though I really didn't want to. 

I wish you success in your physique goals.


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## bjg (Oct 21, 2011)

built 
i already reached my goals, bodybuilding was and is  for me a long life passion and it helped me in other sports where i competed in many events. now  i am just working out and having fun in the gym trying to be healthy. I still sometimes compete in track and field events that my old high school organizes for former students and it pleases me to see that i am still as good as new! 
so for now no real goals as far as looks are concerned and no trying to look like anything  , i just do it by the day and for some strange reason i feel more motivated than ever and  since i am enjoying my workouts it seems that i am getting good results and it is working for me. 
thank you for your wish i wish the same for you.


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## Boxerjl2 (Oct 22, 2011)

at your age test levels are already soaring.. no need for aas, as everyone has said,, train from now till your 25 and learn to do it all naturally get your nutrition down and learn your body,, youll be amazed with the gains u can naturally get.. when your 25 if u still want to hit up some gear,,, but till then steer clear of them you could really screw up your natural hormones


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## Pika (Oct 22, 2011)

This ^^


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