# My pre-contest cycles. DJ, GP, CD, Input?



## hardHITer001 (Oct 25, 2002)

I???m going to go with the ???Monster Combo??? from 1fast400. That???s 400mg 1-T per day with 4-AD, and 6 OXO post cycle. 

I will use the cycle for a month, then the OXO for 20 days then completely off for 10. If I get good results I will start the same again. 

I will do this until 1 month out. I will then drop the 4-AD and add 3-Alpha from Molecular Nutrition and IN-Rage from Avant to help with any lethargy. 

Well? What do you guys think?


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## Robboe (Oct 25, 2002)

Looks good man.

Dropping the 4-AD a month out is good, to help get rid of the water retention.

I dunno what 3-alpha actually is, sorry.

But the IN-rage is a good idea for the lethargy. It's something i plan on trying soon so be sure to let me (us) know how it goes.

Just a quick tip, if you stay on for a month, you're gonan need at least the same in recovery time, so even if you're itching to start again after the 6-OXO, you'd better hold out for the extra 10 days or so.

Good luck!


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## hardHITer001 (Oct 25, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> Just a quick tip, if you stay on for a month, you're gonan need at least the same in recovery time, so even if you're itching to start again after the 6-OXO, you'd better hold out for the extra 10 days or so.
> 
> Good luck!



I will for sure keep you guys posted!

Im thinking since my 1-T dose will be high I may get 2 bottles of 6 oxo and take 4 caps a day for 30 days. Or would it be a better idea to take a higher dose for less duration and just go completely off for a week or two?


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## Robboe (Oct 25, 2002)

Hmmm....not too sure.

The 6-OXO is not something i know that much about, other than the general gist.

Why not email Pat Arnold and ask his opinion?


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## ZECH (Oct 25, 2002)

I really want to see what happens on this and how you feel! I'm willing to bet you get bad lethargy from this. Lots of people get it from just half that amount. You should really see an increase in strength and size though! Keep us informed.

Chicken........................ (from 1fast)3 Alpha is unquestionably the most potent non-aromatizable androgenic prohormone ever developed, the ultimate hardening, cutting and strength promoting agent.3-Alpha converts to the powerful androgen dihydrotestosterone. 3-Alpha will not raise estrogen levels in the body, as it lacks the necessary structure for aromatization (androgen to estrogen conversion) to be possible. Its activity in the body is that of a pure androgen, and similarly side effects related to estrogen such as increased body fat, water retention and gynecomastia are not possible during use.


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## hardHITer001 (Oct 26, 2002)

What about the addition of DMSO to the "Monster Combo"? If I were to mix it in, how much? 

Later when I drop the 4AD, will the use of thermogenics have a negative effect on the benefit of 1-T? Same question for the thyroid effecting fat burners?

Or would I be better off with a topical fat burner?

p.s. placing my order today!


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## gopro (Oct 26, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by hardHITer001 *_
> I???m going to go with the ???Monster Combo??? from 1fast400. That???s 400mg 1-T per day with 4-AD, and 6 OXO post cycle.
> 
> I will use the cycle for a month, then the OXO for 20 days then completely off for 10. If I get good results I will start the same again.
> ...



Sounds like it should work just fine.


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## Robboe (Oct 26, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by hardHITer001 *_
> What about the addition of DMSO to the "Monster Combo"? If I were to mix it in, how much?
> 
> Later when I drop the 4AD, will the use of thermogenics have a negative effect on the benefit of 1-T? Same question for the thyroid effecting fat burners?
> ...



No, EC has no problems with 1-T. In fact, EC is a decent enough tool to help recovery post cycle (cause it shifts energy use over to fat oxidisation so there's less chance of catabolism). But while using 1-T, EC is ok.

If you have any stubborn fat areas, lipoderm-Y may be beneficial. It's by avantlabs, you may wanna look into it.

I dunno much about thyroid meds or thyroid enhancers so i couldn't tell you, sorry.

All i know regarding the thyroid is that you want it running at normal levels or there abouts. If thyroid output is too high you eat away into muscle as well as fat, if it's too low protein synthesis is slowed right down so muscle is harder to put on and fat burning is slowed right down so fat loss is harder.


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## gopro (Oct 26, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by hardHITer001 *_
> What about the addition of DMSO to the "Monster Combo"? If I were to mix it in, how much?
> 
> Later when I drop the 4AD, will the use of thermogenics have a negative effect on the benefit of 1-T? Same question for the thyroid effecting fat burners?
> ...



You can try a small amount of DMSO mixed in if you wish. Only a dab or so is needed on a small area. Too much can cause a skin rash.

Thermogenics will not negatively affect 1-T. Small amounts of extra thyroid will increase the effectiveness of any steroidal product.

Topical fat burners are not all that effective.


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## ZECH (Oct 27, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> 
> Topical fat burners are not all that effective.



I have heard some great things about lipoderm y. Supposedly better than yohim as it has more in it! Haven't tried it though.


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## Robboe (Oct 27, 2002)

Is topical Yohimbine really classed as a 'fat burner' though?

It, itself doesn't actually burn fat, it just makes fat burning easier providing you put the effort in.


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## Belial (Oct 27, 2002)

I'd be careful.  DHT is not something most people WANT to add to any sort of stack.  1-test should give you plenty of hardness, and the 6-oxo, if it works as advertised, should keep the water retention down from the 4-ad.

Honestly, your HPG axis is going to be shut down if you're on for a month.  Time off should equal time on, ESPECIALLY if you're not using proper recovery drugs.  Clomid would probably be a good addition, but I gotta warn you that 10 days off isn't going to make any sort of positive impact on your recovery after the entire cycle is done with.


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## hardHITer001 (Oct 27, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Belial *_
> I'd be careful.
> Honestly, your HPG axis is going to be shut down if you're on for a month.  Time off should equal time on, ESPECIALLY if you're not using proper recovery drugs.  Clomid would probably be a good addition, but I gotta warn you that 10 days off isn't going to make any sort of positive impact on your recovery after the entire cycle is done with.




That???s why I decided to go with 2 bottles of 6 OXO for 30 days after the 1-T / 4AD cycle.


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## hardHITer001 (Oct 27, 2002)

So what about application: On the body part that is going to be trained? Rotate sites to help eliminate rash potential? Or only where the skin is thin: i.e. inside arms, inner thighs, scapulae? 

Im guessing I should shave or at leas cut all my body hair short.............



> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> You can try a small amount of DMSO mixed in if you wish. Only a dab or so is needed on a small area. Too much can cause a skin rash.




Well, now that is a detailed answer!  J/k I value your opinion, but what the Hell is a dab? Do I mix it in the gel, or do I apply to the skin directly then apply the gel?


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## Belial (Oct 27, 2002)

Not enough for proper recovery, if you ask me.  But you didn't.


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## hardHITer001 (Oct 27, 2002)

Im open to suggestion.


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## ZECH (Oct 27, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by hardHITer001 *_
> So what about application: On the body part that is going to be trained? Rotate sites to help eliminate rash potential? Or only where the skin is thin: i.e. inside arms, inner thighs, scapulae?
> 
> Im guessing I should shave or at leas cut all my body hair short.............
> ...



No do not rub just DMSO on you! Mix it in the gel. Most mix in 5 to 10% of mixture. Just a couple ml will help......


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## hardHITer001 (Oct 27, 2002)

Thanks! Thats kind of what I thought...  

what about the application?



> _*Originally posted by hardHITer001 *_
> So what about application: On the body part that is going to be trained? Rotate sites to help eliminate rash potential? Or only where the skin is thin: i.e. inside arms, inner thighs, scapulae?
> 
> Im guessing I should shave or at leas cut all my body hair short.............



Have you kept your gains from your cycle?


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## ZECH (Oct 27, 2002)

You definitely want to shave while on it! The hair will inhibit the skin from absorbing the PH. I just use my arms, chest and stomach. You can use your legs too if you wish. I'd say I kept maybe 75% of my gains or better!


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## hardHITer001 (Oct 27, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> I'd say I kept maybe 75% of my gains or better!



WOW! Its been quite a few weeks since you've come off, correct? How much LBM do you think you gained during your cycle?


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## gopro (Oct 27, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> 
> 
> No do not rub just DMSO on you! Mix it in the gel. Most mix in 5 to 10% of mixture. Just a couple ml will help......



I have had better results by rubbing DMSO on first and then the fat burner or other topical agent right over it.

Speaking of topical fat burners...dg806...I feel they only show results when every last ounce of bodyfat has been dieted and trained off...then, and only then will a topical make a further difference. Basically, it can help with "stubborn fat" that is somewhat resistent to diet/training/supps. (Usually low back, lower glutes, lower abs).

As for prohormone cycles in general...I think that time on should be followed by equal time off.


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## hardHITer001 (Oct 27, 2002)

I got this off DMSrg

"""The first quality that struck Dr. Jacob about the drug was its ability to pass through membranes, an ability that has been verified by numerous subsequent researchers.1 DMSO's ability to do this varies proportionally with its strength--up to a 90 percent solution. ****From 70 percent to 90 percent has been found to be the most effective strength across the skin,***** and, oddly, performance drops with concentrations higher than 90 percent. Lower concentrations are sufficient to cross other membranes. Thus, 15 percent DMSO will easily penetrate the bladder.2 """"


The way I read this is your soultion would have to be 70 DMSO to be at its most effective. So would small ammounts added to PH's really do any good?


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## ZECH (Oct 28, 2002)

At 70 % or higher solution I don't think you would ever be able to stand it. I hear of guys at 20%-30% getting very irritated skin. It might would help if you could stand it. And then again at that high, your skin and breath would smell like garlic. I am still about 5 lbs heavier than before.  I have been off 7 weeks. I just started my super one+ and Boldione. So I am curious as to how this will work.

GP..........I have heard that it works better if you are under 15% Bf. I think that would cover most of us on here that have been working out a while. But for someone just starting out, I think they are better off getting their diet and training in order for a while before trying it.


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## Robboe (Oct 28, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> If you have any stubborn fat areas, lipoderm-Y may be beneficial. It's by avantlabs, you may wanna look into it.






> _*Originally posted by Gopro *_
> Basically, it can help with "stubborn fat" that is somewhat resistent to diet/training/supps.


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## hardHITer001 (Oct 28, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> At 70 % or higher solution I don't think you would ever be able to stand it. I hear of guys at 20%-30% getting very irritated skin. It might would help if you could stand it. And then again at that high, your skin and breath would smell like garlic. I am still about 5 lbs heavier than before.  I have been off 7 weeks. I just started my super one+ and Boldione. So I am curious as to how this will work.



So you think even a small amount is better than none at all?

Was the skin irritation from the DMSO, or a combination of PH gels and DMSO? 

If you added 2oz DMSO (25%) to the gel you now have 10oz total volume. (If an additional 2oz will fit in the bottle)  

The desired dose of 1-T is 200mg = 6 normal squirts = 33.33333e T-1 per squirt. 

I did the math to get the desired dose with the DMSO (25%) mixed in you youd need 7.705 squirts. 

I guess I'll access my tolerance and try and come up with a mix that will give me an even number of squirts either 7 or 8. 

Does any one know if you can build a tolerance to the DMSO? Meaning if it does irritate the skin will the degree of irritation subside with continued use? (I don???t want to make my PH's unusable).


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## ZECH (Oct 28, 2002)

The DMSO will increase the absorption %. You will need LESS squirts. The DMSO will increase the 1-test in the blood and if you add squirts, you will get even more!


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## hardHITer001 (Oct 28, 2002)

I didn???t think of that.  Well that makes it very hard to measure!

That being the case I may just run the PH's during November take December off. Then run them again in January with addition of DMSO. I'll still look at it as 1 bottle + DMSO will be a one month supply. HELL! I can be my own case study! he he

I've already started counting my calories so I can have a base to start with when my stack gets here. I'll start a log and track my weight, bf, strength, recovery ability, and mental state when it gets here. I HOPE IT SHIPS TODAY!


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## gopro (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_



TCD, although our statements were similar, mine was a little more "specific." Stubborn fat is a very vague term...so I added that there are areas that are specifically resistent to normal measures...low back, low abs, low glutes. Sometimes you will see someone totally ripped in all areas of their body, but still holding fat in these areas no matter what they do. Thats where a topical may help. 

My personal belief is that they will not do anything noticable unless your bodyfat is about 8% or less.


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## Robboe (Oct 29, 2002)

Fair enough.


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## gopro (Oct 29, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Fair enough.


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## Robboe (Oct 30, 2002)

I've heard some nasty things about DMSO from a good friend:

"DMSO does work but only fools would still use it since PHLOGEL hit the market. 

DMSO can be much worse than making your own injectable because while the DMSO is on your skin, bacteria and just about any microbes that happens to get on your skin while the DMSO is there will also be carried into the body along with fina. So you must keep the skin protected with sterile gauze because it's like having an open wound. 

DMSO is also hell on your skin in general and has a bunch of nasty side effects associated with it, so you must rotate where you are applying it to avoid damaging skin cells.

For transdermal Fina PHLOGEL is what to use. Higher absorption rate than DMSO and NONE of the side effects." - Severed Ties


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## ZECH (Oct 30, 2002)

I've heard that argument also and everyone thinks it is bs! I'll see if I can find that link.


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## gopro (Oct 30, 2002)

Only problem I've ever had with DMSO was garlic breath!


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## hardHITer001 (Oct 30, 2002)

Unless Im mistaken DMSO is used in Europe by the medical community.

Just a side note: I???m finding the customer service of 1fast400 is top notch!


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## ZECH (Oct 31, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by hardHITer001 *_
> Just a side note: I???m finding the customer service of 1fast400 is top notch!



Yep, the best you'll find................


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## hardHITer001 (Oct 31, 2002)

I got some feed back from Mike at 1fast400. He said at a 30% mix of DMSO along with the 1-T Im just begging for a rash!  

I guess I'll give it a run with out the DMSO and possible add it next cycle. That is if I feel its worth the ton of money they cost.

Do you guys think if I upped my 6-oxo dose both during and post cycle it would make it reasonably safe to shorten time between cycles?


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## ZECH (Oct 31, 2002)

Usually, all you need is a couple ml's of DMSO added to the whole bottle. 6-oxo does speed up the natural test production. But I'm not sure about cutting the time anymore. You need to let your body recover. For example, I had been off 7 weeks. I had a doctor appt. and I had blood taken. My cholesterol was still higher than normal (it was 184 and usually around 125). I started a new cycle last Wednesday. Even with 7 weeks off, I probably should have waited longer, but that is up to you. You are like me, can't wait! And you are way ahead of me in terms of size & shape. So maybe you could afford to take more time. I'm getting old, so I want to gain size as quick as I can!


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## hardHITer001 (Oct 31, 2002)

I hear ya! Im no spring Chicken_Daddy! lol 

Im the old man in my gym. At least the oldest guy training with goal in mind. The "kids" say "Damn! I didnt think you were that old!"  

I know you will keep us posted on your current cycle. Im still waiting for mine---------aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh. Living in Alaska has it draw backs.


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## ZECH (Oct 31, 2002)

How old are you?? And it will be a week tonight. So I haven't been on long enough to post any results yet. I'm not one to post results daily because it's hard to notice. But I'll let you know how it went. It is only going to be a 4 week cycle! I have started to notice a hard full pump again. But it will probably be another week before I notice size and strength gains.


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## gopro (Oct 31, 2002)

Doing prohormone cycles too often and too close together is going to start to yield diminishing returns. Use prohormones sparingly. Yes, they are OTC, but they are still "hormones" or "hormone like." Our bodies have tight feedback loops and after a while they will become useless. To really get an anabolic boost from them, use them for about 6 weeks at a time and then take 6-12 weeks off. In the long run you will end up with the same or better gains and you will be healthier (and will have spent less money).

I recommend no more than 4 six week prohormone cycles per year.


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## hardHITer001 (Nov 1, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> How old are you??



Im 34, so I guess Im not that old.   But the 20 somethings at the gym figured I was mid to late 20's. 

I must be doing something right!!!!!!


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## ZECH (Nov 1, 2002)

I hear ya! I've got about 5 on you! I'll turn 39 this month....


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## hardHITer001 (Nov 2, 2002)

I've been doing some more research. 

Do you think it would be a good idea to use 6-OXO while on and off cycle? I???m thinking this may be a good idea because of the PH dose I???m going to use is pretty high.

So basically I would be on 6OXO for about 5 months!!!????!!!!????


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## gopro (Nov 2, 2002)

Only use the 6 OXO off cycle.


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## ZECH (Nov 3, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by hardHITer001 *_
> I've been doing some more research.
> 
> Do you think it would be a good idea to use 6-OXO while on and off cycle? I???m thinking this may be a good idea because of the PH dose I???m going to use is pretty high.
> ...


Maybe two bottles of 6-oxo after your cycle. 3 or 4 weeks!


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## hardHITer001 (Nov 3, 2002)

Yeah I think I???ll go with larger doses post cycle. I???m also thinking of 2 weeks on and off, instead of a whole month. I???m thinking shorter cycles may easier on the body. I will still have the same amount of on/off time. 
I also think it would be better to cycle my training volume and calories on a two week basis. 

I will however run 4 weeks straight of 1T and  3 alpha just before contest. Then I???m sure I???ll take 6 weeks off at least.

Man, Im talking like this stack is the best in the world and I haven???t even received it yet!


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## gopro (Nov 4, 2002)

Yeah, just remember...you're about to stack two prohormones, not DBOL AND DECA...don't expect miracles!


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## hardHITer001 (Nov 4, 2002)

I know,,,,,,,but if they are as good a people claim maybe I can put on and sustain an extra 7-10 LBM using a couple of cycles That would be great!!!!


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## ZECH (Nov 4, 2002)

That is probably feasible!!


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## gopro (Nov 5, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> That is probably feasible!!



Yes, these types of results have been achieved for some.


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## hardHITer001 (Nov 7, 2002)

I finally got my order in yesterday! Last night I used my first dose. I realized real quick you need to be careful during application........Man! My sack was on fire!!!!! 

Anyway, I'll keep you posted as to my progress over the next few weeks.


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## gopro (Nov 7, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by hardHITer001 *_
> I finally got my order in yesterday! Last night I used my first dose. I realized real quick you need to be careful during application........Man! My sack was on fire!!!!!
> 
> Anyway, I'll keep you posted as to my progress over the next few weeks.



Dude...careful with your sack!


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## seyone (Nov 7, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> 
> 
> Dude...careful with your sack!




ouch.. I would be careful not to put it anywhere that it might end up "downstairs" or on your face. either way isn't fun.


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## ZECH (Nov 7, 2002)

Be sure to keep the application as close to 12 hours apart as you can. That way you have blood saturation 24 hours/day! Oh and sometime I sneak and rub a little on my arms in between. I have also read other people rubbing a little sunscreen or moisturizer on several hrs after application. Thinking here is that some of the PH gets dried on your skin and doesn't get absorbed and this additional moisterizer helps more get in. You can also use the ph gel by avant(with no ph) as the moisterizer.


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## hardHITer001 (Nov 7, 2002)

Well, I hope I???m going to get a big shot of PH's. I???m going with 9 squirts twice a day! So I will go through both bottles in 20 days!!!!

I???m going to use it as 6am and 6pm everyday. Yes, I???m up that early 7 days a week. uuuuuuuuhhhhhhhggggg


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## Twin Peak (Nov 7, 2002)

Damn thats a lot.


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## ZECH (Nov 7, 2002)

HH.......you have the 1-test with 12g of 1-test???


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## hardHITer001 (Nov 8, 2002)

Yeah, I know. I figured I would go with a very hard-core dose to see what if any effects it may bring.

I decided to go with 6 squirts 3 times each day instead of 9 twice a day. I figured it might keep my levels at a steady high.

Anyway: So far I haven???t noticed too much. My weight was a steady 216 at 3000 cals a day. (I train low volume.) I upped my cals to 3200 yesterday and drank 1.5 gals of water. Yet today I dropped to 215. I know it???s too soon to set precedence.

I trained yester day with slightly more volume than normal. I didn???t experience any drastic jump in strength, but like I said its very early in my cycle. I am hoping recovery will be quick as I am looking to eliminate one of my rest days between workouts.

I have noticed what seems to be a difference in body temp. I???m frickin hot all day! Maybe it???s psychosomatic??????


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## hardHITer001 (Nov 8, 2002)

Oh and about my high dose: I???m very meticulous. I am keeping a journal on mood, energy level, ect. I even took calipers to my balls in order to watch out for atrophy. If I see some negative side effects I will decrease my dose, or possible stop and hit the 6-OXO for a while then pick up the stack again with a lesser dose.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 8, 2002)

You aren't eating enough.  I am the same weight and am at 4000-4300 cals a day.  Recommended cals is 20-25 per pound of bodyweight.  I have had dramatic strength increases in the first week.


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## hardHITer001 (Nov 8, 2002)

Do you use a high training volume? My normal training is very brief and infrequent. I don???t do cardio. So right around 3000 was keeping me at 216 for about 12 days before I started my cycle. 

I had a target of 3300 yesterday but fell a little short. I will be sure to get a full 3300+ today.

Think about this: There is about 600 calories in a pound of muscle. If you are stimulating 3 pounds of muscle growth a week you would need 1800 cals a week above maintenance. So if my maintenance is 3000 then 3300 should allow for 3 pound each week. With only a nominal fat gain.


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## gopro (Nov 8, 2002)

It is interesting that once you achieve a certain bodyweight and hold it for a while, you can over time, maintain it with less cals. This is true for most people (of course exceptions exist). I weigh 263 currently and eat no more than about 4000 cals per day. However, on my way up to this weight, my cals were higher.


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## hardHITer001 (Nov 8, 2002)

So what???s your opinion? Is a positive calorie intake of 300 per day enough to fuel any new growth that may be associated with the stack Im using?


263!!!! Holy Crap! How tall are you? Is that lean?


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## gopro (Nov 8, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by hardHITer001 *_
> So what???s your opinion? Is a positive calorie intake of 300 per day enough to fuel any new growth that may be associated with the stack Im using?
> 
> 
> 263!!!! Holy Crap! How tall are you? Is that lean?



Yes, with a low volume approach.

I am 5' 11" tall and weigh 263 at 13.5 % BF.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 9, 2002)

But its quite diff on 1-T.  I train each BP once per week and do abou 9-10 sets.

I just upped from 4000 to 4300 b/c I added 10 pounds.  Eat more.


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## hardHITer001 (Nov 9, 2002)

TP your volume is quite a bit higher than mine. Normally I train legs every 8 days, chest/back every 16th day and shoulders/arms every 16th day as well. All with very few sets.

I have increased my volume and frequency some to possibly take advantage of the high does of 1-T I???m on. I have decided to go with legs every 6th day and chest/back every 12th day and the same for shoulders/arms. (That is if I find I heal quicker.)
Still my total sets in a workout would seem minimal to most. My last workout, shoulder/arm, consisted of 7 total sets. There were a few very light warm ups but only 7 working sets. That???s an increase from my 4 working sets previously done.
So you see I more than likely do not have such a high need for calories.

Gopro="I am 5' 11" tall and weigh 263 at 13.5 % BF." 

Impressive! YOU SUCK! j/k


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## gopro (Nov 9, 2002)

Thank you for saying I suck, LOL. Anyway...my view on 1-Test is that it can help add bodyweight with NO ADDITIONAL calories at all. What has impressed me about 1-Test and 1-AD in particular is their ability to alter lean body mass without making any change to your diet...this is similar (but far less potent) to steroids.

My view is that if you are already on a sound bodybuilding diet, than the addition of 1-test should work on its own.

I do agree, however, that as your bodyweight rises that there is some benefit to upping your "maintenance" cals somewhat.

So, unless you are just looking to bulk for the sake of bulking, I see no reason to add all kinds of calories to your regimen when adding 1-Test.


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## hardHITer001 (Nov 9, 2002)

In reality that???s what I???m hoping for: Just hanging on to my muscle as I get lean. 

I was up 2lbs to 218 this morning!  But I ate 3844cals yesterday!!! When you take in much of that from carbs it???s a lot of food! I did that to average the last two days to about 3400 each. 

I must admit that I've been a little lazy with planning in advance. So I end up trying to even things out with my last few meals each day. I???m going to do some planning today and stick with the 3300 average and see what happens.

Hey TP, we may differ on opinion when it comes to calorie intake but I still appreciate the input. Thanks!


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## Robboe (Nov 9, 2002)

Increasing the calories just gives you the chance to get more bang for your buck. You may be able to experience gains (maybe good, maybe only modest) without changing calories at all, but if you're taking something to crank up protein synthesis some, you may as well take advantage and go for the most gains possible.

More calories just puts more fuel in the tank.


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## gopro (Nov 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Increasing the calories just gives you the chance to get more bang for your buck. You may be able to experience gains (maybe good, maybe only modest) without changing calories at all, but if you're taking something to crank up protein synthesis some, you may as well take advantage and go for the most gains possible.
> 
> More calories just puts more fuel in the tank.



I understand what you're saying but I don't fully agree. If you are already eating say 1.5-2 g of protein per lb of bodyweight each day...and you are at a decent carb and fat intake than I do not think you need to add ANYTHING other than 1-test or 1-ad to your regimen(if thats your supp of choice). If you do, than it should only be a slight increase as no prohormone is increasing your ability to process and use more calories by that much.

Now this advice is meant for someone ONLY looking to add muscle with zero gains in adipose tissue.


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## Robboe (Nov 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> I understand what you're saying but I don't fully agree. If you are already eating say 1.5-2 g of protein per lb of bodyweight each day...and you are at a decent carb and fat intake than I do not think you need to add ANYTHING other than 1-test or 1-ad to your regimen(if thats your supp of choice). If you do, than it should only be a slight increase as no prohormone is increasing your ability to process and use more calories by that much.
> 
> Now this advice is meant for someone ONLY looking to add muscle with zero gains in adipose tissue.



Well the recommendations are to set protein at 1.5-2g per lb, so if someone is already consuming that much, then there's no need to increase the calories from that macro. If not, up the protein.

You'd be suprised how many users of 1-T (especially ONE) have reported that their bf% didn't changed, or may have actually reduced during (and maintained after) the cycles, indicating that it may support higher calorie intakes without the accumulation of bf you'd expect from the same amount of calories without the compound.

And not to mention that with the higher metabolic rate from the added muscle, adding extra calories accordingly with the extra weight gain should be done regardless of 1-T use.

I'm not saying your wrong, cause you're very much right that gains can be made without manipulation of anything (other than the addition of the drug), but i definately see it a beneficial idea to increase calories to make the most out of it - unless using it to maintain LBM during a cut. Especially if the user has just spent upwards of hundreds of dollars on the stuff.


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## gopro (Nov 10, 2002)

You are right TCD...I just always assume that everyone is already doing everyting right with their diet before ever adding a pro hormone...cause I don't believe in supps until the basics are in order.


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## Robboe (Nov 10, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> You are right TCD...I just always assume that everyone is already doing everyting right with their diet before ever adding a pro hormone...cause I don't believe in supps until the basics are in order.




Welity, welity, welity...


You already know my stance on most supps.


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## hardHITer001 (Nov 10, 2002)

Just an update: As I stated already I've gained 2 pounds. I checked my body fat today using calipers, seven-site method. Its down 1%. 
It doesn???t seem like too much but if I could gain 2lbs each week and drop 1% each week. HELL Yeah! I'll take it!

It looks as though my calories are going to average about 3400-3500 while on cycle. That???s 400-500 above maintenance. 

I???m curious as to what my bf will be next week. Just wondering if the added cals just didn???t rev up my metabolism. Next Sunday I will have been on this caloric average for 10 days. That should be enough time for any "revving" of the metabolism to slow down.


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## Robboe (Nov 11, 2002)

When working out with calipers, do you have to input your bodyweight in as part of a calculation, or does the calipers do it electronically themselves regardless of bodyweight?


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## ZECH (Nov 11, 2002)

Not usually...not the methods I've seen. Most have an equation though, with some set standards(ex., one bf measure times xx divided by xx) till you get all measurements taken.


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## gopro (Nov 11, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know your stance on almost everything...you ain't shy, LOL!


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## Robboe (Nov 11, 2002)

Coconut.


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## hardHITer001 (Nov 11, 2002)

I used the calculator at EXRX.NET as you can see it takes sex, age, and weight into the formula.

Who knows if it???s exact or not? But if you use the same standard each time and it shows change then you must be doing something.

I was up another pound this morning. 219!


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## ZECH (Nov 11, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Coconut.


Bananna?????


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## Robboe (Nov 11, 2002)

Dude, that is just sick.

Cocoa Nuts and a banana.


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## gopro (Nov 11, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Dude, that is just sick.
> 
> Cocoa Nuts and a banana.



Dude...you have a language all your own...its filled with "Chickenisms."


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## Robboe (Nov 12, 2002)

I know.

Sad eh?


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## gopro (Nov 12, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I know.
> 
> Sad eh?



Tits!


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## Robboe (Nov 12, 2002)

Totally.


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## gopro (Nov 13, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Totally.



Yup...totally!


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## Twin Peak (Nov 14, 2002)

Nah, I think you are both wrong.


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## gopro (Nov 14, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Nah, I think you are both wrong.



You just don't understand my friend about us Brits!


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## Twin Peak (Dec 2, 2002)

So HH whats the update?  Inquiring minds want to know.

Also, I was rereading this thread, I know, sad, and I realized a major flaw in your logic.

You wrote:

"Think about this: There is about 600 calories in a pound of muscle. If you are stimulating 3 pounds of muscle growth a week you would need 1800 cals a week above maintenance. So if my maintenance is 3000 then 3300 should allow for 3 pound each week. With only a nominal fat gain."

Well, a pound of muscle (or fat) takes about 3600 NOT 600.  So 3 pounds per week would mean in excess of 10K cals.


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## ZECH (Dec 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> 
> If you are stimulating 3 pounds of muscle growth a week you would need 1800 cals a week above maintenance. So if my maintenance is 3000 then 3300 should allow for 3 pound each week. With only a nominal fat gain."
> 
> Well, a pound of muscle (or fat) takes about 3600 NOT 600.  So 3 pounds per week would mean in excess of 10K cals.



1800 divided by 7 = 257.1/day 
3000 + 257.1 = 3257.1(not 3300) Close enough!
Where did 3600 come from? That is why I have always said you can't gain more than 1 lb of LBM per week if that!  Some say they gain 3 or 4 a week but it's not lean mass(fat!) IMO. For you that would be 4542.9 cal/day. Do you think you could eat that much without getting fat? I know I couldn't.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 2, 2002)

3600 kcals = one pound, whether it be muscle or fat.  HH, stated that it was 600 which is plain wrong.  He then said that 3 pounds is 1800 which is plain wrong.  He then divided the 1800 cals by 7 and extrapolated that he can gain 3 pounds of LBM by eating 300 more cals per day.  

We can debate all day long about how much LBM one can gain in a week, but my point is simply that his math, and therefore logic, is plain wrong.


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## ZECH (Dec 2, 2002)

I agree with that, but I was curious how much you could take in in your opinion before starting to get fat??


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## ZECH (Dec 2, 2002)

I think someone about 250 ripped(like GP) probably has a metabolism high enough to eat 5000 cal/day. Not me!


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## Twin Peak (Dec 2, 2002)

I think thats an impossible question to answer generically.  Isn't PS supposed to have a partitioning effect thereby allowing higher than normal food intake?

Personally, I have a rather slow metabolism and gain fat easily.  So if the question is how much can I eat without GAINING FAT (not sure what you mean by GETTING FAT), the answer is not much.  

DG, I am not sure what your point is though, I never advocated eating 5000 cals for anyone.


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## Robboe (Dec 2, 2002)

1lb of fat is actually 3500kcals, and a lb of muscle is quite a bit lower. Closer to 800kcals or so.

Remember, fat is more calorie dense than muscle.


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## ZECH (Dec 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> 
> DG, I am not sure what your point is though, I never advocated eating 5000 cals for anyone.



I know....I just used a number!


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## Twin Peak (Dec 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 1lb of fat is actually 3500kcals, and a lb of muscle is quite a bit lower. Closer to 800kcals or so.
> 
> Remember, fat is more calorie dense than muscle.



Okay then I don't have a clue, and am "plain wrong"; oh well.  It happens once every decade so I am good until at least 2010.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> I know....I just used a number!



Okay, but I still don't get your point of inquiry.


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## Robboe (Dec 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Okay then I don't have a clue, and am "plain wrong"; oh well.  It happens once every decade so I am good until at least 2010.



But you're right, he won't gain 3lbs of muscle by eating 300kcals over. Not unless he's a new lifter or very young. If he's on drugs it's possible.

The body just isn't that efficient.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 2, 2002)

Rob, you are awefully "soft" today.  Feeling okay?

Anything happen with that loan issue we discussed?


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## Robboe (Dec 2, 2002)

So-so.

Been in a sub-dued mood recently due to a lot of things.

I'm not sure if she's gotten round to it yet. I have a feeling she's losing her bottle and is putting it off. I'll talk to her when i can. And you'll be the first to know about any outcomes. 

Thanking you.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 2, 2002)

Wow, you are subdued.  Maybe you need some more ONE.
Please keep me posted.


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## Robboe (Dec 2, 2002)

No, i need less stress.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 2, 2002)

I heard One reduces stress too.

Everyone has stress, its how you handle it.  I am assuming is school related?


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## Robboe (Dec 2, 2002)

A bit of everything.

And i need to get myself to bed sooner and get more sleep. Sorting that out will make me feel 80% better, i know it.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 2, 2002)

It will also help muscle growth.


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## Robboe (Dec 2, 2002)

You saying i'm small?


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## Twin Peak (Dec 2, 2002)

Just relative to how huge you'd be if you slept!  This is my biggest problem.  I need 8-9 hours but rarely get more than 6.


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## ZECH (Dec 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Okay, but I still don't get your point of inquiry.


I'm saying
it takes a huge mofo to eat 5000 calories a day and not get fat! LOL! (lots of muscle to burn it all)


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## Twin Peak (Dec 2, 2002)

I understand what you JUST said, and with that I'd generally agree, but this started by you disagreeing with something I said, and it is that relation which I do not understand.


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## ZECH (Dec 2, 2002)

No I didn't, I don't think? We were talking about how much LBM one could put on in a week. I said I didn't think you could put on 3 or 4 lbs LBM in a week. You said it could be debated.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 2, 2002)

HH wrote:

"If you are stimulating 3 pounds of muscle growth a week you would need 1800 cals a week above maintenance. So if my maintenance is 3000 then 3300 should allow for 3 pound each week. With only a nominal fat gain."


I wrote:

"Well, a pound of muscle (or fat) takes about 3600 NOT 600. So 3 pounds per week would mean in excess of 10K cals."

I was only commenting on what I believed to be flawed math based on the suppostion of how many cals = a pound of muscle -- turns out I was wrong on this; in any event you wrote:



> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> 1800 divided by 7 = 257.1/day
> 3000 + 257.1 = 3257.1(not 3300) Close enough!
> Where did 3600 come from?



So you were basically agreeing with HH.  This is the part I didn't understand since, unlike Rob, you did not seem to disagree with my supposition of how many cals = a pound of muscle -- which is all I was addressing here.

You then went on to write:




> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_ That is why I have always said you can't gain more than 1 lb of LBM per week if that!  Some say they gain 3 or 4 a week but it's not lean mass(fat!) IMO. For you that would be 4542.9 cal/day. Do you think you could eat that much without getting fat? I know I couldn't.



To this I have NEVER commented, except to say that it could be debated.  I didn't say that I'd debate it.  I tend to agree.  That said, I am told that the use of various AS stacks could lead to more than 1 pound per week lean gain on relatively short cycles.  My point being that to your general rule, with which I agree, there are most probably exceptions.

Further, I don't necessarily by into the equation, X number of cals is CERTAIN to lead to a specific gain/loss of muscle/fat.  I think each body processes and partitions differently.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 2, 2002)

Seems that we were talking across purposes, which makes sense since we have no idea what each other was talking about!


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## ZECH (Dec 2, 2002)

LOL! Maybe my math was wrong also! In any event I think I agree with you! I think it could be done with AS's but naturally, I would argue with! And I also don't buy into x # of calories = a certain amount of muscle. Each person's matabolism and LBM is different. Too many variables!


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## Twin Peak (Dec 2, 2002)

Damn, you mean after all that we agree?


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## ZECH (Dec 2, 2002)

I think? Not sure........LMAO!


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## gopro (Dec 3, 2002)

Well, I'm sure this already got answered, but I just can't read all of the posts...but anyway...there are about 3600 cals in a pound of fat and only around 600 in a pound of muscle! However, the whole "if I just add 600 cals to my diet than I will gain a lb of muscle is far too simplistic." 

Also, I think dg mentioned that I am 250 and ripped...I WISH! At 250 my bodyfat is probably around 11 %...far from ripped! Who do you think I am Ronnie Coleman!? And by the way...I eat only about 3800 cals per day...maybe 4000 at most. 5000 would make me fat! My metabolism is not so fast anymore!


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## ZECH (Dec 3, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> 
> Also, I think dg mentioned that I am 250 and ripped...I WISH! At 250 my bodyfat is probably around 11 %...far from ripped! Who do you think I am Ronnie Coleman!?



aaah yeah!!


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## Twin Peak (Dec 3, 2002)

GP, in the REAL world 11% IS RIPPED!


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## gopro (Dec 3, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> aaah yeah!!



Yup...I'm the "white" Ronnie Coleman, LOL.


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## gopro (Dec 3, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> GP, in the REAL world 11% IS RIPPED!



Maybe so TP, but take a look under my avatar and see where I LIVE...


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## Twin Peak (Dec 3, 2002)

Okay man, but at 11% I am Ripped.  At 5% I am stredded.  Only been shredded twice, at each of my contests.  The problem went away shortly thereafter.


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## gopro (Dec 3, 2002)

I consider ripped about 3-4 % bodyfat...but its all just semantics!


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## Robboe (Dec 3, 2002)

11% is low bodyfat.

11% @ 250lbs means you have 222.5lbs LBM.

Which, is a helluva lot.


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## hardHITer001 (Dec 3, 2002)

Hello Gentleman,

It seem the thread I started has moved on to different areas:

Anyway:

Sorry I didn???t keep a record of my run with the Monster Combo. I had a family crisis. 

But the Monster Combo is GREAT! From 10 Nov to 02 Dec I recorded a 9-pound increase in LBM and a 2-pound increase in body fat. I put on 11 pounds in 3 weeks with no increase in BF%. Keep in mind that the last week of this cycle was totally screwed up by a very poor diet and no gym available. Just very, very light weight training (one of those plastic sets you had when you were 12.)

I was using a very high dose: 6 squirts 3 times a day. Yet I suffered no adverse effects. I didn???t notice the strength increase until 10-12 days into the cycle. Then I had a leg workout and a shoulder/arm work out that were absolutely incredible! That when the crisis reared its ugly head,,,,bla,,,,bla,,,,bla 

Currently I have been on 6-oxo for 6 days (6 caps with last meal) and started an ECA/Sodium Usinate/Yohimbine stack. The strength gains are still there. I recently had a great day on the bench!

I plan to run the Monster Combo again. Only this time it will be with a restricted calorie intake due to contest date. I'll be sure and keep you posted.

Oh, I have gotten a few zits on the face and upper back since comming off cycle. But Im 11 pounds heavier!


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## Twin Peak (Dec 4, 2002)

Cool thanks fo rthe update!  Hope things are working out.


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## gopro (Dec 4, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 11% is low bodyfat.
> 
> 11% @ 250lbs means you have 222.5lbs LBM.
> ...



Yeah, I guess.


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## gopro (Dec 4, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by hardHITer001 *_
> Hello Gentleman,
> 
> It seem the thread I started has moved on to different areas:
> ...



Great stuff! Glad its working out. 11 lbs is awesome!


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## hardHITer001 (Dec 6, 2002)

Thanks GP! 
  But I some what mentioned this in my Sodium Usinate tread: I think some of that weight was water. The first few days after coming off the stack I was pissing all the time! 
   The end of my ECA/SU/Yohimbine cycle may be a more accurate depiction of any gains in LBM I've made.  I'll keep you guys posted!


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