# what gives that insanely grainy look??



## plifter198 (Apr 20, 2012)

After lookin at some pre contest pics of pros i got to wondering what gives that really grainy look? is it the mast/winni?  dont give answers like cardio n diet either plz


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## Caretaker (Apr 20, 2012)

An AAS cocktail of various drugs, low fat diet, lifting heavy(thickens veins) and heredity. I`ve seen guys that are absolute monsters(250ish, 8% bf) with not much vascularity and noobs(160ish, training for 6 months) that look like a friggin roadmap.


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## teezhay (Apr 20, 2012)

I've never competed so it'll be really cool to hear what guys with some contests under their belt will say. I've heard that the lengths to which bodybuilders go to achieve the pinnacle of "dry" onstage is such that when they look their best, they're feeling their worst (from energy depletion, dehydration, etc.). Not sure if that's the case, just what I've heard and I think Cutler talked about it at one point.


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## Thunder46 (Apr 20, 2012)

I think extremely low bodyfat, halo, masteron, and winnie


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## overburdened (Apr 20, 2012)

you may not want to hear it but diet and cardio is how you get there... all the drugs(aas, diuretics) in the world wont get you there without the diet and cardio... but for the drugs... tren, halo, winny,test susp, primo, mast,...I'm having a brain fart and leaving a couple out... but you get the idea.. then , when you are lean, dry, depleted... you have to 'dry' out.. this can involve sodium cycling, and generally involves diuretics(lasix, demadex, diazide, hctz, spironolactone...)


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## heckler7 (Apr 20, 2012)

dedication


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## teezhay (Apr 20, 2012)

Thunder46 said:


> I think extremely low bodyfat, halo, masteron, and winnie



What's your thinking on halo? How does that contribute to the ultra-dry cut look the pros exhibit at contests?


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 20, 2012)

Thunder46 said:


> I think extremely low bodyfat, halo, masteron, and winnie




this plus very low water


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## Digitalash (Apr 20, 2012)

low bodyfat and extreme dryness, water/carb/sodium manipulation leading up to the contest to drop as much water as possible and then they use strong diuretics.


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## GreatWhiteTruth (Apr 20, 2012)

teezhay said:


> I've never competed so it'll be really cool to hear what guys with some contests under their belt will say. I've heard that the lengths to which bodybuilders go to achieve the pinnacle of "dry" onstage is such that when they look their best, they're feeling their worst (from energy depletion, dehydration, etc.). Not sure if that's the case, just what I've heard and I think Cutler talked about it at one point.



This is probably closest to the truth. Carbohydrate manipulation combined with water depletion in the last 36 hours give or take before the show can have a profound effect on your appearance. In the last 36 hours before my show after I had dropped water and carbs, (then spiked them the day of the comp) I was noticing changes every 4 hours or so, as I became seemingly more dry by the hour. It comes at a price though. I had no energy, and I also had a hard time getting a pump backstage. Carb cycling works well for me. Your muscles retain more glycogen so they appear more full and less stringy the day of the show. Not to mention you feel alot less lethargic while training. This is in comparison to a "low-carb" pre-contest strategy.

Some guys will slam water down after pre-judging because that's what matters most. So they don't care if they appear more fluffy on their individual routines. But I find that I look better if I just hold out until the end of the show, because I want to look my best 100% of the time. It makes it all worth it when I'm slamming down a coke and a couple slices of pizza afterwards! It really comes down to trial and error. Some people spike carbs 6 hours out, and some spike carbs 2 hours out. It depends on numerous factors, including how low your BF% is and how much water you are still retaining. Water and carb manipulation are powerful tools.


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## SupaSwole (Apr 20, 2012)

I've got a buddy that does some minor competitions and he starts measuring out his water like a week away from comp.. Takes around 2 cups a day or less I think for the last 4-7 days


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## Digitalash (Apr 21, 2012)

I think at first water intake goes wayy up so the body starts flushing out water rapidly, then they drop it down real low just before the contest so they keep flushing and dehydrate quickly. I've heard some guys don't drink like any water at all for the last day or so precontest, not sure if that's true or not though.


Do diuretics negate the need for all this sodium/carb/water manipulation or does it just add  to it? I mean is that something guys only do really hardcore when they're not using diuretics?


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## GFR (Apr 21, 2012)

All I know is when you add slin, you are never grainy and never look as good...not to mention the distention to the waist.


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## Schwarz (Apr 21, 2012)

Drugs.. Diuretics,GH,Tren,Low dose of Test,Arimidex,Winstrol..MAsteron and Halo.
If you Eat clean..oats brown rice, sweet potato, fish,White meat (chicken and Turkey breast) ...no LOW GI carbs..only  Goods Fats..(omega 3-6-9)every fucking days.. with 4 to 6 days of cardio..after workouts or  first thing in the morning..you'll beat the genetic.


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## chris250 (Apr 21, 2012)

its a combo of low, low bodyfat, having a enough muscle. and the right gear...


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## Thunder46 (Apr 21, 2012)

teezhay said:


> What's your thinking on halo? How does that contribute to the ultra-dry cut look the pros exhibit at contests?



Halotestin concentrates in building a leaner muscle making it harder and tighter which makes this steroid a good cutting agent especially during pre-contest trainings. For those who already have a low fat body, being a cutting agent, it makes the muscles more distinct and defined.


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## gm09 (Apr 21, 2012)

im fairly certain a lot of guys drop test all together coming up on precontest


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## s2h (Apr 21, 2012)

Theres so many factors to getting that grainy look it would be impossible to pinpoint one thing...if you look at the majority of competitors that come in really.grainy and hard...they dont ever really get out of shape yr round....muscle maturity also plays a part...drugs are a factor...but not as big of one as most would think....stuff like water/carb/sodium depletion take a few tries before most get it right....even the best prep coaches miss.the mark with first time clients....so exp helps..


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## heckler7 (Apr 21, 2012)

I always thought it was muscle tech products, because the guys in their adds are freaks! Plus the labels always say something like "warning using this product will cause extreme muscle growth'


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## teezhay (Apr 21, 2012)

GeorgeForemanRules said:


> All I know is when you add slin, you are never grainy and never look as good...not to mention the distention to the waist.



Why? What does insulin do that would cause that?


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## ~RaZr~ (Apr 21, 2012)

teezhay said:


> Why? What does insulin do that would cause that?



Open up a pharmacology book and read about insulin's effects. There is a reason why Type 2 Diabetics gain weight once they are started on insulin therapy.


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## gulfcoast (Apr 21, 2012)

I thought about this question for years and now that I'm 3 weeks out from my first ever show I know some of the answers.

It is definitely a combo of diet, drugs and genetics. 12 weeks of super clean carb cycling contest dieting plus HGH, Tren, Provi, Winny, Halo and AIs changed how my body looks in ways I never thought possible. 

I was told to pinch the skin on the back of my hand near the knuckles and if my skin all over my body wasn't that thin then I hadn't dieted hard enough. Not there yet but w 3 weeks to go it is closer than I ever thought possible.

The first time you look in the mirror and see striations in ur ass is truly a "holy shit" moment. lol


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## sscar (Apr 21, 2012)

SupaSwole said:


> I've got a buddy that does some minor competitions and he starts measuring out his water like a week away from comp.. Takes around 2 cups a day or less I think for the last 4-7 days


 
this is absolutly the wrong thing to do. I competed 15 years in all natural contest (poly graph and urine) I drank almost two gallons a day right up to the contest day.If you deprive your body of water it will hold on to all it can a.k.a hold water.If you flood it with water it will get rid of excess.I won 2 state titles along with national titles and placed in the top 5 in the mr. u.s.a .People backstage always asked me how i got so dam ripped.One guy was so thirsty and dehidrated from lack of water he passed out.research this topic.


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## teezhay (Apr 21, 2012)

~RaZr~ said:


> Open up a pharmacology book and read about insulin's effects. There is a reason why Type 2 Diabetics gain weight once they are started on insulin therapy.



I don't have a very well-read understanding on insulin, but I'm looking to learn more. I thought diabetics gained weight on insulin because their blood sugar drops resulting in excess glucose stored in their cells. With the athletic workload of a bodybuilder, though, I just figured this wasn't anything for which nutritional adjustments and training couldn't compensate. It's been said a million times (and in a disparaging manner, which I find unfair) that Phil Heath has utilized slin like crazy over the past decade and you read about the "fullness" of muscle caused by glycogen storage, and he's basically the poster boy. That said, while he doesn't have Dorian Yates-esque striation, he's pretty well defined too.


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## ~RaZr~ (Apr 21, 2012)

Well usually when BBers prep for the a show, they are depleting everything (fat, water, excess anything) they can. You have to remember that when they are in the final days, they will throw EVERYTHING into their bodies (juice, stims, diuretics, etc) to get that "below 5% bf" look. 

With that said I'm sure that during the offseason, they will slam slin like crazy in an all out attempt to get as big as possible.


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## teezhay (Apr 21, 2012)

~RaZr~ said:


> Well usually when BBers prep for the a show, they are depleting everything (fat, water, excess anything) they can. You have to remember that when they are in the final days, they will throw EVERYTHING into their bodies (juice, stims, diuretics, etc) to get that "below 5% bf" look.



Makes total sense, thanks for explaining bro.



> With that said I'm sure that during the offseason, they will slam slin like crazy in an all out attempt to get as big as possible.



This is why I can't understand the argument against Phil Heath, putting him down for suspected slin usage. _Every_ pro is utilizing _every_ resource at their disposal to produce the optimal body for the stage.


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## gulfcoast (Apr 21, 2012)

~RaZr~ said:


> Well usually when BBers prep for the a show, they are depleting everything (fat, water, excess anything) they can. You have to remember that when they are in the final days, they will throw EVERYTHING into their bodies (juice, stims, diuretics, etc) to get that "below 5% bf" look.
> 
> With that said I'm sure that during the offseason, they will slam slin like crazy in an all out attempt to get as big as possible.



Incorrect re water - u actually drink 1.5 - 2 gals ED right up til 12-48 hours before show. Ur body gets use to flushing it so then when u restrict it and have none to flush it is pulled out of ur skin and sub q area into ur muscles if ur carbs and sodium are right. The human body really is an amazing thing with how fast and effective it adjusts to changes and inputs.


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## Glycomann (Apr 21, 2012)

plifter198 said:


> After lookin at some pre contest pics of pros i got to wondering what gives that really grainy look? is it the mast/winni?  dont give answers like cardio n diet either plz



Well diet and cardio is a big part of the answer so if you don't want the answer then don't ask.  That qualification of yours was like what makes the sky blue and don't tell me it has to do with oxygen.

The answer is 

1. low body fat
2. lots of hardeners (i.e. win/var/Halo)
3. nutrient timing i.e. carb load after depleting
4. water manipulation


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## tinyshrek (Apr 21, 2012)

Genetics. Period! End of thread lol. Seriously you either have it or you don't


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## tinyshrek (Apr 21, 2012)

There a few who have it now, branch, Evan, and that's about it. Dorian and Ronnie too... Gaspari


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## ~RaZr~ (Apr 21, 2012)

GC 
Either way, they are either depleting or restricting any excess they are consuming or have (in or on their body). 

Maybe my wording or lack of specific words confused you (in that instance it's my fault for not looking over my post), but we are good to go now.


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## SupaSwole (Apr 22, 2012)

gulfcoast said:


> Incorrect re water - u actually drink 1.5 - 2 gals ED right up til 12-48 hours before show. Ur body gets use to flushing it so then when u restrict it and have none to flush it is pulled out of ur skin and sub q area into ur muscles if ur carbs and sodium are right. The human body really is an amazing thing with how fast and effective it adjusts to changes and inputs.


That's how you do it but I know for a fact that the guy I know measured small amounts out. He measured out everything


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## Glycomann (Apr 22, 2012)

No it's not halo and wini and masteon and low carb followed by high carb loading... it's test and big macs.


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## ~RaZr~ (Apr 22, 2012)

Glycomann said:


> No it's not halo and wini and masteon and low carb followed by high carb loading... it's test and big macs.



^^^ 
Did it for the lulz


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## overburdened (Apr 22, 2012)

tinyshrek said:


> Genetics. Period! End of thread lol. Seriously you either have it or you don't


It's not just genetics... it's hard work, decication, and knowing how to manipulate your body...  I have some of the worst genetics possible(other than my calves..I'd have to say those are partly genentics), but i  have striated glutes 3-5weeks out from a show... before I deplete... and I am grainy EVERY time I do a show!!  It comes down to doing everything right from the get-go when you start your comp diet til the comp is over...  I honestly believe that any bodybuilder is capable of obtaining that look with DEDICATION, HARD WORK, AND SOMEONE HELPING THEM THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING....  Too many people listen to guys that haven't the first clue of what you should look like on stage, telling them they are ready for comp(when they are at 7%+bf..)...  Of course that's what you want to hear... but it isn't the truth!!!  Bodybuilders need to find the harshest critics when it comes time to do a show... and listen to them!  The harshest critic is the one that will guide you to that 1st place trophy, not the random guy in the gym telling you that you are ready for the Olympia....  They will pick you apart till you are forced to fix whatever the problem is(cause most of us competing bodybuilders are perfectionists, and if someone tells us we look like shit and we aren't ready to step on stage... We are going to take a closer look at things and find a solution!!)... But of course, in the midst of feeling like we are starving to death, eating food we hate, and the countless hours of cardio...  If someone tells us two weeks into the diet that we are shredded beyond belief... hey, we're gonna ease up on the cardio a bit, get a littlle more lax with the diet, etc.....  

I keep covered in the gym when dieting, just so I don't get those comments... I don't want them!!!  I have the few people that will tell me the truth, and that's who sees me when I'm getting ready for a show!!!  And that's why I come in on top of my game!


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## gulfcoast (Apr 22, 2012)

^ This

It really is hardcore and takes a certain amount of insanity...

In the last 3 months I have had none of the following -

Alcohol
Dairy - milk, cheese, yogurt, cottage cheese
Soft drinks
Juice
Bread
Granola
Fruit - bananas, apples, oranges
My favs - PBJs, pizza, Reese's Cups lol

After a couple months u kinda get numb and just go through the daily motions.


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 22, 2012)

gulfcoast said:


> ^ This
> 
> It really is hardcore and takes a certain amount of insanity...
> 
> ...



right there with u bro! good work


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## tinyshrek (Apr 22, 2012)

:meth:


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## sscar (Apr 22, 2012)

gulfcoast said:


> ^ This
> 
> It really is hardcore and takes a certain amount of insanity...
> 
> ...


v
this is so true,everyday people can't even come close to relate to preparing the right way for a contest


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## Goldenera (Apr 22, 2012)

gulfcoast said:


> ^ This
> 
> It really is hardcore and takes a certain amount of insanity...
> 
> ...



damn!  That's sacrifice and dedication. 
I don't compete. I'd jump off the roof without those things lol.


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## ~RaZr~ (Apr 22, 2012)

Goldenera said:


> damn!  That's sacrifice and dedication.
> I don't compete. I'd jump off the roof without those things lol.



Done it as well. It's a bitch, but like GC said, you become "numb" and just eat to live.


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## overburdened (Apr 22, 2012)

Goldenera said:


> damn!  That's sacrifice and dedication.
> I don't compete. I'd jump off the roof without those things lol.



It sucks ass(the diet...and all the cardio)  but damn it's worth it when you look down the lineup on stage and know you won before the posing starts!!!


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## BP2000 (Apr 22, 2012)

how do you diet down naturally w/out losing muscle mass?  I tend to get small


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 22, 2012)

Goldenera said:


> damn!  That's sacrifice and dedication.
> I don't compete. I'd jump off the roof without those things lol.




you lose your desire for it.. I dont intend to put any of that back in my diet except for bananas and peanutbutter for a cheat meal when im bulking.


havent had a soda/candy in 8 years, no alchohol for 6 BLAM!


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## overburdened (Apr 22, 2012)

you can do it naturally too... you do stand a bigger chance of losing some muscle while doing so, but not too much if done correctly....  It doesn't really matter if you are natty or not, you're going to feel like you are shriveling up to nothing when you diet like that... the funny thing... to the avg person, you look WAY bigger when very lean... regardless that you feel 'tiny'


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## RockShawn (Apr 22, 2012)

gulfcoast said:


> ^ This
> 
> It really is hardcore and takes a certain amount of insanity...
> 
> ...



I feel your pain. Even cheat meals fuck with your mind. You start measuring everything. 

My "supplements" are almost non-existent. T3, oxy elite, trt dose of test and adex. I'm here to tell you that drugs are not accomplishing my look for me. It's cardio, strict diet and dedication. Lifting even when your sore as hell, cardio every morning, and a coach that knows what the hell he is doing. 

IMHO


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## RockShawn (Apr 22, 2012)

overburdened said:


> you can do it naturally too... you do stand a bigger chance of losing some muscle while doing so, but not too much if done correctly....  It doesn't really matter if you are natty or not, you're going to feel like you are shriveling up to nothing when you diet like that... the funny thing... to the avg person, you look WAY bigger when very lean... regardless that you feel 'tiny'



^^soo true. I get more compliments on my size now than I did when I was 30 pounds heavier. It's a mind fuck for sure. I see myself as skinny and tiny, but everyone else thinks I look bigger. I'll go with their opinion as I'm hoping that's how the judges will see it.


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 22, 2012)

RockShawn said:


> I feel your pain. Even cheat meals fuck with your mind. You start measuring everything.
> 
> My "supplements" are almost non-existent. T3, oxy elite, trt dose of test and adex. I'm here to tell you that drugs are not accomplishing my look for me. It's cardio, strict diet and dedication. Lifting even when your sore as hell, cardio every morning, and a coach that knows what the hell he is doing.
> 
> IMHO



is that morning cardio fasted? do people still do that shit?


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## overburdened (Apr 22, 2012)

Standard Donkey said:


> is that morning cardio fasted? do people still do that shit?


eca, water , and the treadmill....  it sucks but it works ... at least for most...


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## tinyshrek (Apr 22, 2012)

You guys are all talking about contest shape.... The thread topic was "insanely grainy condition" and no one here has that so.... No one here knows lol. There has only been a hand full of people to ever achieve that type of condition


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## overburdened (Apr 22, 2012)

tinyshrek said:


> You guys are all talking about contest shape.... The thread topic was "insanely grainy condition" and no one here has that so.... No one here knows lol. There has only been a hand full of people to ever achieve that type of condition



bro, you don't have that year round... it comes from being in 'contest condition'... you see pics of pros like that in the magazines all the time, but it's cause the pics were taken around contest time.....  anyone who has been down around 3%bf and dry, with the right depletion and carb load probably has had that...


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## tinyshrek (Apr 22, 2012)

Just because u compete BRO doesnt mean ur grainy lol!!! Branch and Evan are the only grainy ones now. Just because you are shredded doesn't mean your INSANELY GRAINY. I'm competing as well bro


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 22, 2012)

bro


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## overburdened (Apr 22, 2012)

tinyshrek said:


> Just because u compete BRO doesnt mean ur grainy lol!!! Branch and Evan are the only grainy ones now. Just because you are shredded doesn't mean your INSANELY GRAINY. I'm competing as well bro


I AM  grainy every single time I step on stage....


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## tinyshrek (Apr 22, 2012)

No ur not guy. Ur shredded for sure but u r far from grainy. Not hating just being real


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 22, 2012)

<grabs popcorn>


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## tinyshrek (Apr 22, 2012)




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## tinyshrek (Apr 22, 2012)




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## tinyshrek (Apr 22, 2012)




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## tinyshrek (Apr 22, 2012)




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## tinyshrek (Apr 22, 2012)




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## tinyshrek (Apr 22, 2012)

The topic was "insanely grainy" not contest condition. My friend you are not on their level. But you do have a great physique


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## overburdened (Apr 22, 2012)

Standard Donkey said:


> <grabs popcorn>


lol.....  nice!
I'll get my scanner working.... that's a pic of a pic on my profile...  just for shits and giggles..lol


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## overburdened (Apr 22, 2012)

Those are grainy!!!


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 22, 2012)

the king of grainy? and fibery?


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## tinyshrek (Apr 22, 2012)

SD is munzer jr!! Haha


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 22, 2012)

tinyshrek said:


> SD is munzer jr!! Haha




someday... O_O


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## RockShawn (Apr 23, 2012)

Standard Donkey said:


> is that morning cardio fasted? do people still do that shit?



I fast if doing LISS, but now I eat before my 30 min HIIT. I'm in the gym 2x a day doing something right now. I've still got fat to fight before I can worry about water but I'm close and my show's 9 weeks out. 

Overburdened is right though. The grainy look is reserved for contest shape. You can't stay that way all the time. You might be able to every once in a while for a photo shoot, but that's only if you are as lean as you would be pre contest.


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## gulfcoast (Apr 23, 2012)

tinyshrek said:


> The topic was "insanely grainy" not contest condition. My friend you are not on their level. But you do have a great physique



They go hand in hand - the ONLY time any of these guys or anybody else for that matter has that "look" is for a day or so, maybe just hours, after intense contest prep. The human body cannot stay at 3% dry for more than a very short period of time wout serious health consequences... just ask Andreas Munzer, I mean read his autopsy report. :-(


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 23, 2012)

gulfcoast said:


> They go hand in hand - the ONLY time any of these guys or anybody else for that matter has that "look" is for a day or so, maybe just hours, after intense contest prep. The human body cannot stay at 3% dry for more than a very short period of time wout serious health consequences... *just ask Andreas Munzer, I mean read his autopsy report.* :-(



if you read it you would not have written this


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## ~RaZr~ (Apr 23, 2012)

Munzer was peeled, dry as beef jerky, shredded, etc. 

Was he grainy though? Is there even a difference or is it a matter of opinion?


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## tinyshrek (Apr 23, 2012)

Munzer bled to death on the operating table due to the extreme amount of blood thinners he was taking. That was the main culprit. Of course everything else played a factor as well


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## Digitalash (Apr 23, 2012)

any questions?


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## gulfcoast (Apr 23, 2012)

tinyshrek said:


> Munzer bled to death on the operating table due to the extreme amount of blood thinners he was taking. That was the main culprit. Of course everything else played a factor as well



Yeah parts of his liver having the consistency of styrofoam probably didn't help... I believe that was in the report but I could be wrong.


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## Digitalash (Apr 23, 2012)

I believe it was too, there were golfball size growths in his liver and it was somewhat degenerated. There are so many rumors though I don't know what to believe. I've heard everything from that he was so dehydrated/on diuretics his blood simply stopped flowing, that his bodyfat was too low to continue living etc. If anyone knows 100% for sure I'd like to hear, the guy's basically become a myth though and it's hard to say what is exaggerated and what is not


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## Goldenera (Apr 23, 2012)

Digitalash said:


> any questions?



Epic conditioning and unreal calves!


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## Digitalash (Apr 23, 2012)

Normally I'd say I would never reallly want to look like an ifbb pro (not that I could if I wanted to) but I'd be pretty ok with that physique lol


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## tinyshrek (Apr 23, 2012)

The blade!!


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 23, 2012)

definitely looks great.. im glad he got an O


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## stfuandliftbtch (Apr 23, 2012)

overburdened said:


> you may not want to hear it but diet and cardio is how you get there... all the drugs(aas, diuretics) in the world wont get you there without the diet and cardio... but for the drugs... tren, halo, winny,test susp, primo, mast,...I'm having a brain fart and leaving a couple out... but you get the idea.. then , when you are lean, dry, depleted... you have to 'dry' out.. this can involve sodium cycling, and generally involves diuretics(lasix, demadex, diazide, hctz, spironolactone...)



diet and training...no need for cardio


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## dawun (Apr 23, 2012)

good diet all year long and hardcore workouts..


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## ~RaZr~ (Apr 23, 2012)

Yes this is off-topic, but "The Blade" and Mark Dugdale are two guys that I wouldn't mind having their conditioning.

Some guys want to have to fitness model physique of Plitt while others want to be tanks of muscle like Yates and Coleman. 

In regards to Munzer, I never read the reports. If he had a "styrofoam" liver with masses in it, then he had cirrhosis. This could explain why the guy bled-the-fuck-out everywhere.


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## Glycomann (Apr 23, 2012)

Standard Donkey said:


> bro



Yeah bro


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## Glycomann (Apr 23, 2012)

~RaZr~ said:


> Munzer was peeled, dry as beef jerky, shredded, etc.
> 
> Was he grainy though? Is there even a difference or is it a matter of opinion?



Munzer was peeled to the point he looked reptilian.


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## Glycomann (Apr 23, 2012)

~RaZr~ said:


> Yes this is off-topic, but "The Blade" and Mark Dugdale are two guys that I wouldn't mind having their conditioning.
> 
> Some guys want to have to fitness model physique of Plitt while others want to be tanks of muscle like Yates and Coleman.
> 
> In regards to Munzer, I never read the reports. If he had a "styrofoam" liver with masses in it, then he had cirrhosis. This could explain why the guy bled-the-fuck-out everywhere.


According to Nasser he bleed out from a bleeding ulcer that was a chronic problem. After his competition he was on board a trans continental flight for many hours and by the time they got him to the hospital and on the OR table he had bleed out.  The German media sensationalised the story to demonize steroids and bodybuilding according to Nasser el Sonbaty who new him well. You can read about it on Nasser's site.


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 23, 2012)

iirc correctly, munzer was ignoring some very obvious warning signs.. for months


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## Glycomann (Apr 23, 2012)

Standard Donkey said:


> iirc correctly, munzer was ignoring some very obvious warning signs.. for months



Probably years


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## ~RaZr~ (Apr 23, 2012)

That's right! Thanks for refreshing my memory. If his liver was shot AND he had a bleeding ulcer (that ruptured)....he was going to bleed out like a women giving birth.


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## airsealed2 (Apr 24, 2012)

overburdened said:


> you may not want to hear it but diet and cardio is how you get there... all the drugs(aas, diuretics) in the world wont get you there without the diet and cardio... but for the drugs... tren, halo, winny,test susp, primo, mast,...I'm having a brain fart and leaving a couple out... but you get the idea.. then , when you are lean, dry, depleted... you have to 'dry' out.. this can involve sodium cycling, and generally involves diuretics(lasix, demadex, diazide, hctz, spironolactone...)



Wow, all true but scary as hell. Almost everything there can cause kidney failure. Not to mention what too much protein does. I won't go into it but I almost lost someone close to me due to kidney failure. Scary as hell and the fatality rates have actually gone up over the last fifty years when people do have kidney failure. It is one hell of a helpless feeling because modern medicine is not equipped to save people when their kidneys fail. Mortality rates are estimated as high as 70 percent. 

Don't get me wrong, it's not the gear so much as things like dehydration, diuretics, long term heavy protein use, even exertion. I'm not an alarmist. I hate alarmists. I just found out the hard way what a big problem it is. My gut twists just thinking about what I just went through with the finest human being I know and some of it might have even been my fault. Cage fighter stuff, I'll tell the story here soon when I have time.


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