# Sustanon or Test E for first cycle



## james-27 (Dec 20, 2010)

*Okay I was planing a* *Sustanon 250 only cycle for 10 weeks taking 1cc every 5 days, but have changed my mind. I was wondering if a Test E (maybe with Dbol) cycle would be better (simpler) for my first time. I know **Sustanon is a blend of four different tests, and I read its great for bulking. 


I'm not looking to get Arnold ripped but I wanna have thick mass. Right now I'm 5'5 165 (started lifting when I was 130lbs) 9-10% BF. My goal is to weigh around 185-200.


So I guess what im asking is witch would be a better, simpler bulking cycle Test E or **Sustanon 250?


*


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## blazeftp (Dec 20, 2010)

What age are you ?

At 5"5 i would wait and see if a grew more.

You need to do more research if you think running 1cc of sust every 5 days was a good idea.


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## james-27 (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm 27. 1cc is equal to 1ml correct? So if I took 1cc that would be 250mg's and 2cc would be 500mg's and so on? Am I missing something? I know with Sus your suppose to take 250 mg EOD or at most E3D but I don't wanna pin that much so I was thinking abt trying E5D's. 

Anyway this is why im here asking if a Test E cycle is go to be simpler.


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## blazeftp (Dec 20, 2010)

Hit me up Via a Pm.

Sust is mainly short esters so most of these will be gone withing a few days.
So blood levels would be far from stable.

Get yourself some Test E or C
Do 2 Injections a week of 1ml.

Thats 500mg per week for 10-15 weeks.

Make sure you get yourself a good AI just in case of side effects.

What are you thinking for PCT ?


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## The Prototype (Dec 20, 2010)

Test E for sure! Much easier and more effective IMO. I used sust before and I can tell the test e is much stronger. I did both at 500 mg per week pinning twice a week and both were pharm grade. Prob was weaker bc of unstable blood levels.


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## james-27 (Dec 20, 2010)

I was thinking Clomid ran 50/50/25 I have a shit load of Nolva already (I have ran a few PH cycles in the past) so I will prob run them both. As for an AI I do plan on taking not just for sides but to help with bloat. I have No idea what AI I will take though. I could use some help in that area.

Should I consider Dbol with test E or should I not think about stacking until I see how my body reacts to Test. Maybe run Dbol when im ready for my second cycle?

Going to bed I'll check up on this again tomorrow.


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## blazeftp (Dec 20, 2010)

AI i use is aromasin. 8mg ED

You could run Dbol is a kick start for your cycle.
I would run the clomid for another week.


I will be switching from Test E to sust next week.

Going to compare results see which one was better.

Will be doing the sust EOD


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## CanadaGear (Dec 20, 2010)

They're equally good for bulking. Either or I go wtih 500mg/week.


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## OutWhey (Dec 21, 2010)

testosterone is testosterone is testosterone. They have the same ingrediant. testosterone. The only difference it the esther which makes the testosterone short acting or long acting. If you keep your blood concentration levels the same by injecting the short acting more frequently and the long acting less frequently than theoretically the results should be the same.


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## MDR (Dec 21, 2010)

I agree that the ester length is the key here.  Sust combines 4 types of Test, with long and short acting esters.  Seems to me for a first timer Test E or C would be easier,IMHO.  Two shots a week, no muss, no fuss.  He is concerned with bloat, but the A/I will help take care of that with any ester length.


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## The Prototype (Dec 21, 2010)

Conrad415 said:


> testosterone is testosterone is testosterone. They have the same ingrediant. testosterone. The only difference it the esther which makes the testosterone short acting or long acting. If you keep your blood concentration levels the same by injecting the short acting more frequently and the long acting less frequently than theoretically the results should be the same.



Test is test but if you use a blend with short and long esters and only pin once or twice a week, then you aren't using the short esters properly and basically wasting them and you are left with only the long esters thus the compound is weaker on a mg for mg basis. If you only pinned prop every five days what kind of results will you have?


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## SloppyJ (Dec 21, 2010)

You don't want to pin E3D? Well you're shit out of luck. Pin the Test E 2x a week 3.5 days apart. ie... Saturday morning, Tuesday night.


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## hackskii (Dec 21, 2010)

blazeftp said:


> Hit me up Via a Pm.
> 
> Sust is mainly short esters so most of these will be gone withing a few days.
> So blood levels would be far from stable.
> ...


 


Conrad415 said:


> testosterone is testosterone is testosterone. They have the same ingrediant. testosterone. The only difference it the esther which makes the testosterone short acting or long acting. If you keep your blood concentration levels the same by injecting the short acting more frequently and the long acting less frequently than theoretically the results should be the same.


 
Sust does not mainly have short esters, the prop in the 250mg sust is just 30mg that is nothing.
The long ester has 100mg (deconate).

Sust was designed for TRT in Europe to be shot once a week (100mg) and twice a month (250mg).
So, shooting it once a week is fine, no need to split the doses and in fact I do sust shots (500mg) once a week and it would offer zero benefits shooting that twice a week.
Once blood levels get up, they will stay there.
I notice it took a month for my last shot of 500 sust to clear.

Keeping stable blood levels when you are shooting 5 times over base values means nothing, even the body rises and falls many times during the day peaking at about 7:00 in the morning, so even in the body this fluxuation is called the circadian rythem.

Me personally I like enanthate and cypionate over sust for a few reasons.
The prop in sust gives me pain.
It takes more time to clear than cypionate or enanthate.
It makes start time of PCT harder due to the longer esters taking their time to clear.


As said above, test is test is test, changing the ester does not change the base gear which is testosterone, it wont make any diffrence on growth, sides, or anything.


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## The Prototype (Dec 21, 2010)

hackskii said:


> *Sust does not mainly have short esters, the prop in the 250mg sust is just 30mg that is nothing.*
> The long ester has 100mg (deconate).
> 
> Sust was designed for TRT in Europe to be shot once a week (100mg) and twice a month (250mg).
> ...



Sustanon has four esters, two of which are considered short esters:

30 mg testosterone propionate
60mg testosterone phenylpropionate
60 mg testosterone isocaproate
100 mg testosterone decanoate 

Propionate and phenylpropriate have half lives of 4.5 days, Isocaproate 9 days and decanoate 15 days. There are two short esters (prop and phenylpropionate) equating to 90 total mg, not 30 mg. If you aren't using the short esters properly, you're actually only effectively utilizing 160 mg of the 250 mg. I can tell you from personal experience that pinning Sust twice a week versus E, that the Sust was weaker. I am getting better gains from the E and I can tell my body is shut down harder. I barely felt like I was shut down on the Sust and I didn't even experience atrophy or shrinkage. I pinned both compounds twice weekly, used 500 mg per week of both tests and both were pharm grade. 

TRT dosages and dosages used by bodybuilders are two completely different things unless you find a VERY nice doc. I've heard of docs prescribing TRT treatment ranging from 100 mg every two weeks (which is next to nothing) to 250 mg every week. Those are considered "cruise" doses for bodybuilders. I don't think your doc is too concerned with keeping your blood levels stable for maximum muscle growth. Ideally, for what we use Sust for, you will get the most bang for your buck pinning minimum of e3d, but preferably ed or eod to effectively utilize the short esters and to keep blood levels more stable.


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## james-27 (Dec 21, 2010)

blazeftp said:


> AI i use is aromasin. 8mg ED
> 
> You could run Dbol is a kick start for your cycle.
> I would run the clomid for another week.
> ...



How do I take 8mg's of Aromasin if they come in 25mg tabs? This AI is also an anti-estrogen blocker so Nolva would not be necessary staring at week six correct? I would take Aromasin ED starting at first pin and even ran through pct.


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## blazeftp (Dec 21, 2010)

james-27 said:


> How do I take 8mg's of Aromasin if they come in 25mg tabs?



I split it into 3.
Take one part.


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## hackskii (Dec 21, 2010)

What was written by *blazeftp was “*_Sust is mainly short esters so most of these will be gone withing a few days.”_

_This is not true._
_90mg of sust is actually faster than test E_

_The other 160mg from the other esters are actually the same and longer than enanthate._

_The problem is simple, _*the *phenylpropionate ester is quite heavy for how short the ester is.
Generally speaking the shorter the ester the lighter the weight, the base powder is measured with the ester attached.
So technically the phenylpropionate is a crap ester as it is heavy for how short it is.

Now the deconate ester is the longest out of them all and weighs the most, so mg per ml sustanon is not exactally 250mg, it is a lot less than enanthate actually, and with the extra carbon atom in cypionate, enanthate is a bit more potent than that.
This is no doubt the reason why gains are not quite as much with sustanon than enanthate or cypionate, the mg is less per 250mg shot.

As far as it being shot more frequent, not so, the 90mg of the short esters won’t do anything for gains and are there for just getting it into the system faster.
For instance many guys shoot 100mg propionate every day, or 700mg a week.

If you shoot all 500mg enanthate in one shot or twice a week you will notice no difference with the two, stable blood levels are off the chart and never will you be anywhere spike and decline with one shot a week.
Let’s put this into perspective. One 500mg shot takes 3 plus weeks to clear, shooting twice a week wont change anything only more scar tissue from more frequent jabs.

I myself have shot twice a week, and once, no difference.

Another thing with sust is once the long ester is in the system, and you shoot next week, there is an overlap with the long ester, each week there is some overlap, so blood levels will continue to rise as long as the first 200mg deconate ester clears (500mg sust), that is weeks not days. 200mg deconate takes more than 3 weeks to clear, so shooting 200mg deconate each week after each week overlapping, you are off the chart by the end of the cycle.
It will take in excess of 3 weeks to get blood levels up to max and they wont drop for a while.

So there is no missconception of the short esters, they are not the big part of the sust equation and although I agree that the prefrence is enanthate over sustanon, if you get a good deal on sust get it.
But again mg per mg it will have less bang for the buck from that crap short heavy ester and the long deconate ester. This is the compromise of the blend.
From memory it is like 172mg per 250mg or might be less.
So as you can see this would make a diffrence.
But bang 3 amps the first two weeks and be done with it, that takes advantage of the long ester and discounts the short ones altogether.


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## james-27 (Dec 22, 2010)

Okay guys I'm going with Test E. I got to thinking I have two bottles of Mdrol (superdrol clone) that I never used could I kick start my cycle with say 3 weeks of Mdrol at 10mg a day?


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## BigBird (Dec 22, 2010)

hackskii said:


> What was written by *blazeftp was ???*_Sust is mainly short esters so most of these will be gone withing a few days.???_
> 
> _This is not true._
> _90mg of sust is actually faster than test E_
> ...


 
Right on Hack.  But I looked up the testosterone ester mg/mg chart and 200mg of oil based Test will offer 172 mg of actual test due to the oil being included in the weight/strength calculations.  Obviously the only way to get exactly the mg for mg strength is straight suspension.  

Good post though.  Thanks.


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## blazeftp (Dec 22, 2010)

Interesting.

I remember i found a thread which showed how stable blood levels where with sust.
Was a scientific study.

Found it !

Injections E3D






Twice a week





Once a Week.


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## hackskii (Dec 22, 2010)

blazeftp said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I remember i found a thread which showed how stable blood levels where with sust.
> Was a scientific study.
> ...


 
I cant see the study.

Guys the ester is attached to the gear, all by weight is how it is measured.
Generally speaking the longer the ester the more weight of the ester and beings that the ester is attached to the gear, you dont get the mg as suggested.
Phenylprop is a fast ester considering yet heavy, this makes it a crap ester if you are paying for gear perse.
Test base (suspension) with no ester the mg of test is exactally what it is.

There is alot of misconceptions about sust, in fact most people do not know how to actually cycle this drug.
It is not for the short ester we use sust, it is for the long one.

With that said, this is the way it SHOULD be cycles bearing in mind the long ester.
Frontload.
Yep, if you want to do 500mg a week of sust for a cycle you front load the first 3 weeks.
Consider 750mg for the first three weeks, two at the very least, this will get the best bang for the buck and here is why.
3 amps would give you 300mg deconate ester the first week, this would take around 3 to 4 weeks to clear.
Next week, another 300mg deconate, which would take 3 to 4 weeks to clear.
Next week, another 300mg deconate ester which would take 3 to 4 weeks to clear.
Notice the overlap?
Each week blood levels would climb.
By the 4th week the first injections would be full throttle with the long ester.
All in all the shorter esters would be working well as they are not some piddley little amounts that would not make much diffrence in the scope of things.
90mg of the short ester (500mg) would be ok but the phenylprop is a heavy ester for how short it is, so you are not getting 90mg more like 70, or even less.
Thats nothing.
So, short esters with 750 front load would be around 100mg a week.
By the time the iso kicks in, prop is out, and the long esters are ramping up.

Again, I dont like repeating myself but stable blood levels mean nothing unless you are on TRT where you need a certain amount of testosterone.
On average men produce about 7mg every day of testosterone or 49mg a week.
Typical TRT doses are 100mg cypionate, this serves abour the right amount as taking away the ester and some loss of absorption puts you in or around base levels (normal).
With TRT stable blood levels mean alot, crash or not.
On cycle this means nothing, levels are so far off the chart keeping them stable wont do anything................NOTHING.
I dont know why guys regurgitate this garbage about stable when we are using 5 times the amount that occurs naturally.

Now to be fair about blood levels and this should be addressed for sake of arguement is the sides.
Spikes and declines of testosterone tend to spike estrogen, test suspension is classic for gyno symptioms.
Spikes aromitize yet declines tend to have the testosterone to estrogen levels skewed, another reason guys get gyno.
Hi estrogen, or high estrogen to testosterone ratios can cause gyno.
Outside of that, supraphysiological levels dont need to be stable.
Jabbing once a week with 500mg is just fine, gains wont be better jabbing more.


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## bigpapa101 (Dec 22, 2010)

Test E or C any day definatly for a beginner...dont really feel like getting into the reasoning!  Research and see what you think fits you better, E and C are basically the same thing...eighther one would be good to you!

BP


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## BigBird (Dec 22, 2010)

Just for the record I need to clarify an error in my last post.  For every 100mg of oil-based test you're getting 72mg of test.  Therefore, 200mg of such kind of test offers 144mg and so on and so forth.  I previously stated, in error, that 200mg offers 172mg of actual test which was incorrect.


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## hackskii (Dec 22, 2010)

I remember in the day a buddy of mine was in europe and got amps of sust for so cheap he gave them away.

If price is an issue, test is test, those amps were so cheap you could do a cycle for about 20 bucks.
So, with that said, buy where the deals are.

I personally dont like the prop in sust, or any prop, it kills me.


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## The Prototype (Dec 22, 2010)

That is good info about the ester weights and I understand them, but, a very small percentage of users consider the ester weight into their total mg per cycle. If you use Test E at 250 mg per week, you're not going to say "well actually, since the test has an ester, I have to consider the weight of the ester so the actual free testosterone is 180 mg". I think you are getting way too scientific for something that's meant to be a lot simpler. Everyone calculates test in weight that includes the ester. Maybe the more advanced or highly knowledgeable user might look at it this way, but the average user will not look at it that way. Just my two cents on that.


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## hackskii (Dec 22, 2010)

rippedgolfer said:


> That is good info about the ester weights and I understand them, but, a very small percentage of users consider the ester weight into their total mg per cycle. If you use Test E at 250 mg per week, you're not going to say "well actually, since the test has an ester, I have to consider the weight of the ester so the actual free testosterone is 180 mg". I think you are getting way too scientific for something that's meant to be a lot simpler. Everyone calculates test in weight that includes the ester. Maybe the more advanced or highly knowledgeable user might look at it this way, but the average user will not look at it that way. Just my two cents on that.


 
I understand what you are saying and my posts were mearly to allow others to understand where I am comming from.

When people talk about blood levels, there needs to be perspective.
Clearance times need perspective.
When people talk about shooting sust more frequent to take advantage of the prop and fast esters just makes me shake my head.
I would not have gone into any detail if I didnt think I wanted to allow my position to sink in to allow many misconceptions to keep being repeated.

HCG being supressive and not ran post cycle = crazy
This is why I go into detail as some of the stuff being repeated is flawed.
Now it is not my job to correct, just to help others understand.
I dont get upset, I have very thick skin, and to get under it takes alot.

When I post it is to not just give my opinion, but the logic behind it.
If I am wrong then please correct me with the same courtesy and logic in the post that I give.

Saying thats wrong and leave it at that will no doubt get a question as to why, if the person cant explain it then the credibility is in question.
Agin, if I am wrong then by all means correct me to help me understand more.

Happy hollidays guys.
I do like this board.


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## blazeftp (Dec 22, 2010)

I couldn't find the link to the Actual study.

I do see your point however.

I will be switching from Test E 2x300mg jabs to sust.

Was going to do 200mg EOD.

Think i will just stick with the 300mg twice a week.
I was also going to run Test suspension with it as i got it free from WP.
was going to do 100mg a week

What would you suggest for pinning schedule ?


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## hackskii (Dec 22, 2010)

I got into a debate just two days ago about fats, this person then decided what I was suggesting was a myth, she went into details about how she knows so much, yet gave nothing to the table.
In the end I never made it personal, just stated some facts, she decided she wanted her account to be deleted.
WTF?
lol


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## hackskii (Dec 22, 2010)

blazeftp said:


> I couldn't find the link to the Actual study.
> 
> I do see your point however.
> 
> ...


 
Be very careful with that suspension, I have seen more abcess with suspension (winstrol, testosterone) than any other gear.
Be very careful and keep an eye out for gyno.
Shoot that pre-workout and watch the pumps...lol


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## BigBird (Dec 22, 2010)

rippedgolfer said:


> That is good info about the ester weights and I understand them, but, a very small percentage of users consider the ester weight into their total mg per cycle. If you use Test E at 250 mg per week, you're not going to say "well actually, since the test has an ester, I have to consider the weight of the ester so the actual free testosterone is 180 mg". I think you are getting way too scientific for something that's meant to be a lot simpler. Everyone calculates test in weight that includes the ester. Maybe the more advanced or highly knowledgeable user might look at it this way, but the average user will not look at it that way. Just my two cents on that.


 
I'm not really that scientific when laying out my cycle.  If it's 500mgs of Test E weekly then I consider it just that - 500mg Test E weekly.  I think we were just getting hitting the thread up with a technical aspect but I agree with keeping things simple.  
I guess some of this would only come in handy if we ever receive a pop quiz!


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## blazeftp (Dec 22, 2010)

I am running Aromasin ED.
You have put me off the suspension now lol.


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