# Top amateur dies



## Mudge (Sep 2, 2003)

> This past weekend one of the bigger up and coming freaks in the BB world past away this weekend... and alot of us on here can learn a few lessons from this.
> 
> No names will be named, but this guy was a top amateur, super heavy weight, last competed at 290 I think...was JACKED. Looked like Yates...but bigger.
> 
> ...


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

I hate to say it but the old rule come to mind.  You play you pay.  now you know why I'm anti steroids.


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## Mudge (Sep 8, 2003)

Sounds like heavy use, + recreational drugs, not my way of doing it.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

Here is what I just don't understand.   You look at a bodybuilder or someone in the health and fitness field who looks fantastic and what comes to your mind.  Wow that guy or gal is in great shape and excellent physical condition.  You hear lots of talk about proper dieting and vitamins and mineral supplimentation.  You look at a package at GNC and there is a picture of a bodybuilder on the label even.   What we don't know (or actually we insiders of the sport do know) is there is alot of smoked mirrors.   These same people injest large amounts of steroids, diuretics and what have you which is  totally hypocritical.  They walk around with distended stomachs,  their internal organs are 3 times their normal size. Their livers probably tattooed with cysts. Half bald and they are only 25.   You hear quite too often of these guys dying young.    I can't remember his name but I remember a certain pro bodybuilder who was noted for his freaky shreaded appearance that died on stage due to some form of diuretics.  He bled to death internally or something like that.  Just earlier or a year after another one bit the dust for a similar reason.   There were more but I can't remember their names.  I won't even get into the mental side effects heavy steroid users suffer from.   I'll only use the phrase "roid rage"  beating their wives and girlfirends, bar fights, depression when they come off a cycle too quickly.   Believe me I know, I've been there and done it.  That to me is not what bodybuilding should be.   It should be 100% Muscle and Fitness.   Just as the title of the magazines portray.    Mens Health, Shape.   Not   Muscle & roids,  Iron needle, health in a bottle.    give me a break and stop taking the easy way.   That's all I have to say about this.


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## Mudge (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> You look at a package at GNC and there is a picture of a bodybuilder on the label even.................
> I can't remember his name but I remember a certain pro bodybuilder who was noted for his freaky shreaded appearance that died on stage due to some form of diuretics.



Momo Benaziza, he was really short so his way to level the field was be the most ripped of that field. Paul Dillet came close doing the same thing, froze up on stage and couldn't move, had to be carried off.

I agree on the lies part, that is what I dont like as well somewhat - you have kids trying desperately to gain mass blah blah, no problem give us your money buy this garbage and voila you will be HOOGE. I wanted my first weight set when I was around 7 or so, one of my friend's dads was a competitor, and my barber was a national competitor, so I had early exposure. I didn't end up getting my first weight set till I was 11 but I of course read the magazines.


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## crackerjack414 (Sep 8, 2003)

bodybuilding is a very deceptive sport with lots of rec drug use. People dont know about that side of it hmm i remember a certain pro who was busted for extasy and admits cocaine use while dieting.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Momo Benaziza, he was really short so his way to level the field was be the most ripped of that field. Paul Dillet came close doing the same thing, froze up on stage and couldn't move, had to be carried off.
> 
> I agree on the lies part, that is what I dont like as well somewhat - you have kids trying desperately to gain mass blah blah, no problem give us your money buy this garbage and voila you will be HOOGE. I wanted my first weight set when I was around 7 or so, one of my friend's dads was a competitor, and my barber was a national competitor, so I had early exposure. I didn't end up getting my first weight set till I was 11 but I of course read the magazines.



*********************
YES your totally on the ball there Mudge that was the name I couldn't remember,  Benaziza.   Who was the other one I'm speaking of.   he was tall blond, not very good looking and had very thin lips but shreaded beyond belief.


Speaking of the lies,, can you believe that  Ron Coleman actually has or at least had the balls to say he doesn't use steroids??  I remember around the time he won his 1st Mr. O  he made mentionn of that.   I was like what a fuqing lying SOB.  In a way I'm kinda glad he did for the sake of kids that may want to emulate him but for the majority of bodybuiders (being adults) it was like he was calling us stupid.


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## Mudge (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> YES your totally on the ball there Mudge that was the name I couldn't remember, Benaziza. Who was the other one I'm speaking of. he was tall blond, not very good looking and had very thin lips but shreaded beyond belief.



Oh damn the German guy, he died from dieuretics too? Yeah he had a "nose" on him, hmm the name will come to me eventually.

As for Ron, yeah - being in the force and such for those years that he was on I am sure he got used to telling people it was hard work and supplements coupled with genetics.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

and being on the force he couldn't possibly believe his fellow officiers were stupid!  Jesus it's their job to sniff out junkies.


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## Mudge (Sep 8, 2003)

My gut feeling is that is why he is gone, I think they probably didn't want the attention because DUH somebody is using.

That German guy is going to be a hard name to pull, I was never a huge fan but yes his skin was paper thin, I do remember him though. I dont have any of my old rags either as I gave em away a few years back.


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## nutter58 (Sep 8, 2003)

thats the thing, rec use is very common.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

I'm going to have to go and search the internet for his name, it's on the tip of my tounge.     Regarding Ron,, he is still part time or some shit like that I believe.


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## Mudge (Sep 8, 2003)

http://www.pharmaeurope.com/LASIX.asp



> This also seems to have been the cause of death for Austrian bodybuilder Heinz Sallmayer, who passed away during the 1 980's, and for Mohammed Benaziza, who died in October 1992.



http://www.nltc.com/ref_lib/GHB_deathlist.html

Andreas Munzer, damn it came to me.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Andreas+Munzer+death

That came from the deep recesses of my rear end, I have not thought of him in years.

Ginkgo Biloba is the shit.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

Damn you ARE THE MAN!!!  Andreas Munzer you got it!!!!


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

hahahaha   I just saw that bottom line you wrote.  out your ass  and you got it off the internet.  very good.


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## Mudge (Sep 8, 2003)

I could not pull it up searching "bodybuilder deaths" or "bodybuilder deaths diuretics" then I kept thinking austria austria, but was only pulling up Arnold stuff - so it would appear he was forgotten somewhat. I guess thinking of AAA is what got it pulled up in my brain.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

WEll that was good work. I was also having a problem finding it.


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## Flex (Sep 8, 2003)

Ya guys, Munzer and Benaziza died from a cocktail of bodybuilding drugs found in their systems.  That is also why Flex Wheeler quit, he can't compete with the "big boys" naturally, so he retired.  I just read his book "Flexability".  The guy almost died at least 5 times.  The book describes how he literally would leave the hospital (after being put on IV's and dialysis from the diuretics he was taking), hop on a plane to another show, take MORE diuretics on the plane, and passed out on stage.  He's lucky he's still alive.  Oh well, that's what these guys "live" for i guess....


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## Flex (Sep 8, 2003)

pick up the book if you want a really cool, honest book to read. its only like $20. i read it in one night. its scarely honest....


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> Ya guys, Munzer and Benaziza died from a cocktail of bodybuilding drugs found in their systems.  That is also why Flex Wheeler quit, he can't compete with the "big boys" naturally, so he retired.  I just read his book "Flexability".  The guy almost died at least 5 times.  The book describes how he literally would leave the hospital (after being put on IV's and dialysis from the diuretics he was taking), hop on a plane to another show, take MORE diuretics on the plane, and passed out on stage.  He's lucky he's still alive.  Oh well, that's what these guys "live" for i guess....



Your point proves mine.  It's all bad. Steroids and diuretics are not suppliments that promote Health and well being.  I have used steroids many many moons ago and will never touch them again.  You live and learn.  Hopefully you live long enough to finish the lesson being taught.


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## Mudge (Sep 8, 2003)

All kinds of things are "bad," Alcohol is bad but its also good   My opinion is there can be balance in life.

Do you not believe in HRT either?

I am not rolling my eyes at you either, just that the fact that everything is "going to kill you" if you read up on what we eat.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

I don't know what HRT is Mudge.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

Mudge,, I agree about balance but if a person injests steroids that allow him to gain over 30 lbs of muscle that is abuse any way you look at it.


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## mrguy (Sep 8, 2003)

Wait a minute!

You mean Coleman didn't get that freaky huge from creatine and 1-ad!!!


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

So tell me Mudge what is the proper balance to steroid use?  I never could figure it out.  Where exactly is the cutoff between balanced and unbalanced?  How do you measure such a thing.   10 lbs gained in a year on the stuff is a good balance?   20, 30?  Or is the logic of balance determined by how much of it you could afford?   I know some of my cycles were monitarily determined.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

In short I'm saying how do you know when enough is enough.  I don't think waiting until the doctor tells you that you have cancer is the time to come to the conclusion that you were not balanced.  Or one day you realize Hey what happened to all my hair?  Damn Who stole my balls while I was asleep.   Come on my man don't lie to yourself to justify their use.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

ANYTHING THAT MAKES YOUR BOYS SHRINK IN LESS THEN 30 DAYS TO THE SIZE OF  SMALL GRAPES  IS NOT A GOOD THING TO BE DOING TO YOUR BODY


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## Arnold (Sep 8, 2003)

I have never known of ANY bodybuilder that died from steroid use. 

The only deaths I know of (which you eluded to above) were from diruetics and insulin.

Steroids have ALWAYS been a part of bodybuilding and they always will, and I do not think they are the problem. It's all of the other drugs that are used to get shredded on competition day that are the problem.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

Prince you missed my original point  read this post I made earlier.



> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> Here is what I just don't understand.   You look at a bodybuilder or someone in the health and fitness field who looks fantastic and what comes to your mind.  Wow that guy or gal is in great shape and excellent physical condition.  You hear lots of talk about proper dieting and vitamins and mineral supplimentation.  You look at a package at GNC and there is a picture of a bodybuilder on the label even.   What we don't know (or actually we insiders of the sport do know) is there is alot of smoked mirrors.   These same people injest large amounts of steroids, diuretics and what have you which is  totally hypocritical.  They walk around with distended stomachs,  their internal organs are 3 times their normal size. Their livers probably tattooed with cysts. Half bald and they are only 25.   You hear quite too often of these guys dying young.    I can't remember his name but I remember a certain pro bodybuilder who was noted for his freaky shreaded appearance that died on stage due to some form of diuretics.  He bled to death internally or something like that.  Just earlier or a year after another one bit the dust for a similar reason.   There were more but I can't remember their names.  I won't even get into the mental side effects heavy steroid users suffer from.   I'll only use the phrase "roid rage"  beating their wives and girlfirends, bar fights, depression when they come off a cycle too quickly.   Believe me I know, I've been there and done it.  That to me is not what bodybuilding should be.   It should be 100% Muscle and Fitness.   Just as the title of the magazines portray.    Mens Health, Shape.   Not   Muscle & roids,  Iron needle, health in a bottle.    give me a break and stop taking the easy way.   That's all I have to say about this.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

Prince do you personnally know of anyone that jumped off a bridge or died hang gliding,  snow skiiing?  I dont know anyone that died from those things either but that doesn't mean it never happened.


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## Flex (Sep 8, 2003)

Great point Fire,
it gives kids and naive people the false impression that alls they need to do is buy Weider Protein powder and Cell Tech and they'll be the next Mr. O. Little do they know these guys spend $1000s a month on juice, and are probably less healthy than the kids are, even though they have a fantastic physique.


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## Mudge (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> ANYTHING THAT MAKES YOUR BOYS SHRINK IN LESS THEN 30 DAYS TO THE SIZE OF  SMALL GRAPES  IS NOT A GOOD THING TO BE DOING TO YOUR BODY



30 days is way heavy use OR someone VERY easily shut down.



> *So tell me Mudge what is the proper balance to steroid use?*



Proper, hmm what is proper, thats an individual thing. I am coming to the conclusion though still recently that I dont want to be all that heavy, I am now down to 212 and I like leaning out a bit, I will know for myself "when I get there." HRT = Hormone Replacement Therapy, related to "life extention" (mostly GH for those guys).


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## Arnold (Sep 8, 2003)

Steroids are used in most sports, especially the NFL. What is the big deal?

Pro bodybuilding is not about health, it's a sport, and the athletes do whatever it takes to win, just as in all other sports. They do not care about their health! They promote supplements because they need the money, again just as any other athlete does.

Why is it okay to go to a plastic surgeon and get balloons stuck in your body, or get your face all cut up, but injecting your self with some hormones is SOOO bad?

I do not get it?


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

Prince you can say that You don't see a problem with roids but we will never agree on this one my friend.   I do see a problem and I do think they are majorly abused.   You cannot tell me that you do not suffer a greater risk of liver cancer by their over use.   And I do say over use.   They are commonly over used and relied upon.  Lifters that use them become dependant upon them mentally.   They are addicting in a way because when you come off and your strength and size deteriorate, ya panic and jump back on again.  NOw you can say that you don't do that and I won't call you a liar.   I will say that you use them cautiously but you are an exception to the rule.   
Bodybuilders who have a bodyfat lower then 10% and their stomachs are bloated are caused by enlarged organs.   I know for a fact that it has been proven that the heart of long term steriod users and abusers have been measured to over 3 times their natural size.   Not that is not Natural or healthy which was why I know of several users that died young from congestive heart failure.   So you don't know one but I know 2.   ONe died at the age of 25   and the other at 30 something.   Both cases they had enlarged hearts.


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## Arnold (Sep 8, 2003)

If you use injectables you're not putting your liver at risk, injectables bypass your digestive system.

As far as distended guts, that comes from heavy HGH use, I thought we were talking about steroids?

As mudge said there is a big difference between steroid USE, and steroids ABUSE.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Steroids are used in most sports, especially the NFL. What is the big deal?
> 
> funny you should say that,, do a google search and find out the average life expectancy of a football player.  You will be very surprised to know that the average age of death is in the early 50's.
> ...


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> If you use injectables you're not putting your liver at risk, injectables bypass your digestive system.
> 
> As far as distended guts, that comes from heavy HGH use, I thought we were talking about steroids?
> ...



I will admit I lumped it all togher but that isn't the point here Prince nor the point I was making.  I was making a general statement that it's all bad.   Steroids, HGH, Diuretics.   Bro,, If I dropped a bottle of  HGH on the floor in any gym in the USA,, someone would pick it up and use it.  You know that!  You would probably do so yourself.  Shit man,, I gave the shit up years ago but If I found a bottle I'd probably use it myself!!!  
It's all about overall health in the sport.  At every level.  It's used more and abused on every level.   and regardless of label you use,  hgh, steroids, diuretics,, they are ALL used on those levels.  Come on Prince,   You have to be honest with yourself and you have to admit that you would not be as big as you would be using steroids but you would be at less of a health risk.    
(the word YOU being generalized not You directly Prince)


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## Mudge (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> oh Prince you didn't just compare a doctor doing a sugery to civilians subscribing themselves medications and administering it themselves too did you??? Does something called being a trained professional come to mind??



Baloons that have caused cancer and killed people versus light useage enhancing your own natural hormones and then some, I see a big difference, and I would argue further that there are alot of doctors that dont know two shits of what they are doing with drugs. I have plenty of mostly female friends that can attest to incorrect dosing causing all kinds of problems, random random random wild guesses.

Plus I would argue some doctors probably just dont care that much, pharmacists for example catch drug interactions more than the doctors do, doctors are not experts at diet OR drugs.



> *Would the amount perscribed by that physcian be the same amount as what your average bodybuilder would and does take??? *



You seem to talk average being some 300 pound person, I'm tall and I dont plan to hit that. Albert Beckles is still kicking around and he looks fine and dandy to me.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> If you use injectables you're not putting your liver at risk, injectables bypass your digestive system.
> 
> Yes I'm very aware of that.  But tell me,  why do I read soo many posts on here regarding orals as well?   I'll answer that.  Because they ARE available and they ARE used.  Even by members on this site.    Prince you are grasping at all different angles here to argue a point that I don't understand.  You seem to just be picking at some of my generalizations but doing so does not argue a valid point to back up that steroids (AND Growth hormones, insulin, diuretics and whatever else people use to get bigger)  are not a healh risk or better yet,, a health hazard.
> ...


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## Mudge (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> Jesus Christ there is actually some shit out there that you make yourself!!! you boil this and smash up this tablet and mix it in a "special solution" filter it with a freeken coffee filter and then inject it into yourself!!!!



If you can get the powder, or if your talking fina (conversion) anything can be turned into an injectable at home. If people are dropping stuff on the floor who is the stupid one, them, why blame an entire culture for a few idiots? I would also argue that the coffee filter is not sufficient, people trying to save a couple dollars are doing that, not everybody.

Ephedrine kills people, or people kill themselves taking whole bottles of the stuff?

Guns kill people, or people with guns kill people?

Yes people do orals and people drink alcohol too, not sure what the point is. If you have data that says 8 weeks of oral use out of the entire year is worse than being a party boy I'd like to see it.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Baloons that have caused cancer and killed people versus light useage enhancing your own natural hormones and then some, I see a big difference, and I would argue further that there are alot of doctors that dont know two shits of what they are doing with drugs. I have plenty of mostly female friends that can attest to incorrect dosing causing all kinds of problems, random random random wild guesses.
> 
> Well to be totally honest with you Mudgster,  I have stated in other posts that I'm against implants but this doctor thing was really off the original subject.    Believe me I know that if it were even remotely legal doctors would prescribe whatever your requested just to retain your business.  They are all about money I know that.    But even so,, here you mention over and over how doctors make all these mistakes.  And YET...  they have years and years of education behind them and they still make mistakes.   So knowing you have trained professionals that don't know it all, how can you guys say you know more then them with ZERO medical knowledge????
> ...


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## Mudge (Sep 8, 2003)

I never said I know more than a doctor, but they are practitioners just as "we" practice.

I have a pharmacist friend and she too raises her nose at most doctors.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> If you can get the powder, or if your talking fina (conversion) anything can be turned into an injectable at home. If people are dropping stuff on the floor who is the stupid one, them, why blame an entire culture for a few idiots? I would also argue that the coffee filter is not sufficient, people trying to save a couple dollars are doing that, not everybody.
> Well the company that is at the top of IM.com that Prince posted mentions using the supplied coffee filter with their kit.  I did not see any alternative option mentioned.  If I were to have bought that kit and tried to make my very own drug still, I would have used the filter.  (then again I'd never even dream of making my own drugs and injecting them).  It's insane.  Just insane.
> 
> ...


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> I never said I know more than a doctor
> 
> Hold on a sec Mudge.  I don't want this personal.  Were friends and I'm keeping it that way.   I never said "you"  so please don't  get defensive.   In fact I didnt' point out any specific individual.
> ...


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

Ok sorry there Mudge,, I just saw this one because I was looking back to see what the whole point of this all was.  by the way you were agreeing with me on the original topics.  


posted by Mudge [/b][/i]
30 days is way heavy use OR someone VERY easily shut down.


OK OK, don't get soo picky.  30 days 60 days 90 days. point was  anything that shrinks the boys can't be a good thing.
Speaking of which did you know that people that stay on the stuff for extended periods of time have become sterol?   Yep it's true, it's true!!  Not good 

***************

Proper, hmm what is proper, thats an individual thing.

yeppers it is an individual thing.  Which is the problem.  Some people just don't know what moderation is.   That is why so many things are abused and given bad raps.   (as mentioned above: alcholol, ephidrine, etc.)
********************
 HRT = Hormone Replacement Therapy, related to "life extention" (mostly GH for those guys). [/QUOTE]

SAY WHAT???  I have absolutely what your talking about.  Your over my head now.  lol


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

Prince my original quote as to what this was all about




> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> Here is what I just don't understand.   You look at a bodybuilder or someone in the health and fitness field who looks fantastic and what comes to your mind.  Wow that guy or gal is in great shape and excellent physical condition.  You hear lots of talk about proper dieting and vitamins and mineral supplimentation.  You look at a package at GNC and there is a picture of a bodybuilder on the label even.   What we don't know (or actually we insiders of the sport do know) is there is alot of smoked mirrors.   These same people injest large amounts of steroids, diuretics and what have you which is  totally hypocritical.  They walk around with distended stomachs,  their internal organs are 3 times their normal size. Their livers probably tattooed with cysts. Half bald and they are only 25.   You hear quite too often of these guys dying young.    I can't remember his name but I remember a certain pro bodybuilder who was noted for his freaky shreaded appearance that died on stage due to some form of diuretics.  He bled to death internally or something like that.  Just earlier or a year after another one bit the dust for a similar reason.   There were more but I can't remember their names.  I won't even get into the mental side effects heavy steroid users suffer from.   I'll only use the phrase "roid rage"  beating their wives and girlfirends, bar fights, depression when they come off a cycle too quickly.   Believe me I know, I've been there and done it.  That to me is not what bodybuilding should be.   It should be 100% Muscle and Fitness.   Just as the title of the magazines portray.    Mens Health, Shape.   Not   Muscle & roids,  Iron needle, health in a bottle.    give me a break and stop taking the easy way.   That's all I have to say about this.


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## Mudge (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> Speaking of which did you know that people that stay on the stuff for extended periods of time have become sterol?



Post cycle (LH/FSH etc) is what I have been spending my time studying, so yes I'm absolutely aware of year rounder risks.



> *SAY WHAT??? I have absolutely what your talking about. Your over my head now. lol*



Old folks who use GH to feel young again, same with testosterone somewhat but GH is a bit more aimed at "fixing the body" and Test is a bit more for "I want some spunky sex again."



> *Hold on a sec Mudge. I don't want this personal. Were friends and I'm keeping it that way. I never said "you" so please don't get defensive. In fact I didnt' point out any specific individual. *



Believe me, I respect your opinion and this is in no way feeling personal to me at all, I see that you look back on this and seem to feel discusted and thats fine  that is just how you feel.



> *Steroids will make you live longer and happier then the natural bodybuilder who lives the life of a true athelete. The one that wins and looses on his "own" abilities. *



I think it is you who is getting emotional here  I never said that and I dont believe that, same with working out, even if it does NOT extend my life it will improve the quality of it. People like to point and laugh at people who eat clean because they are not living to be 140 years old, thats not what its about IMO and it never was.

Who knows what my opinion will be in 5 years, 20 years, 40 years, I can't say.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> 
> As far as distended guts, that comes from heavy HGH use, I thought we were talking about steroids?
> No actually Prince read the original post.  we were talking about more then just steroids.
> ...


Nobody used the word ABUSE more then I have on this thread Prince.  

Hey I think that every steroid produced has a clinically sound reason for it's existence.  To treat some "real" ailment.   I am not a guru on Steroids and all the other products used but I remember reading on of the pullouts in a box  that whatever it was was to treat  dwarfism.  
I could not agree with you more when you use the word abuse.   One of my questions was where is that line of acceptable use and stepping over the line towards abuse?  It isn't like  alcholol there are clear signs.  You can't walk, talk and you kiss you dog goodnight and put the wife out on the back portch.   Steroid abuse you don't know until damage is done.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Oh man sorry, that really wasn't directed at you Mudge it was just me on my bandwagon.  If I made suggestion to you that was a mental mistake probably because I've been speaking to you.
> I was a bit directed to Prince who comes across to me that Steroids do no harm.





I think it is you who is getting emotional here  I never said that and I dont believe that, same with working out,


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

Yes I did say:   "YOU and Prince"        I just looked back,  A total mistake on my part.


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## firestorm (Sep 8, 2003)

HRT = Hormone Replacement Therapy, related to "life extention" (mostly GH for those guys).    

Ok I'd like to know more about this HRT thing.  Is this a legal thing???   I hope so.


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## Mudge (Sep 9, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> I was a bit directed to Prince who comes across to me that Steroids do no harm.



I still believe there is such a thing as safe use though, so feel free to group me in 



> *Ok I'd like to know more about this HRT thing. Is this a legal thing??? I hope so.*



Of course! Not to say that this is not "abused" a little like other things, but normally you'd have to be really in the gutter with your levels OR old, and GH is so wicked expensive (especially in the US!!!  ) that these are not casual solutions for bodybuilders at all. People try to buy out of the country if they can, you can see my thread on US drug companies:

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20800

I dont have roid rage or anything like that so I'm not sitting here getting all steamed, I try to never, ever argue, I despise it and I think its childish. So feel free to discuss.

I do recall though that you've been in and out of here several times and each time seems like its the last after you've made your statements  its not a judgement call or anything just an observation, but one that I think I can understand. You are trying to disuade people from doing this and thats going to happen.

HRT doses by the way are usually for test anywhere from 100-200mg a week, sometimes just a flat 200mg every second week. There is a test ester that lasts about 20 days but it is not used in the US, US testosterone is usually cypionate and pretty much everywhere else in the world they would be using enanthate or perhaps this "testosterone heptylate theramex" with its very long half life, created by the french and on the shelves since 1955 (useless info).


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## firestorm (Sep 9, 2003)

Mudge you and I were on the same frequency until Prince posted. Then things got off what we were talking about.  We were talking about abuse.  We were talking about people who died from abusing "drugs".  I think it's safe to use the word "drugs" so not to have steroid users read this again and take offense.


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## firestorm (Sep 9, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> I still believe there is such a thing as safe use though, so feel free to group me in



I agree with you here absolutely but like you just said you read my profound statements before.   Young people new to anabolics have no clue to what are safe levels.   You know your shit on the subject and if your going to use it, I feel you are one of the few that know how and how much.   Come on you belong to a gym.  Look at some of these people.  Puffed up soo bad they look like the marshmellow man.   You have guys talking about how much they take and think that more is cool.   that is totally wrong drug management.   You know they guy who's faces are beat red all the time from the anadrol 250's.   And of course the guys that ingest tons of juice and barely workout and don't look like shit.  they just blow up and think they look huge.  (they are my favorites). You know where I'm coming from I'm sure.

*********
Of course! Not to say that this is not "abused" a little like other things, but normally you'd have to be really in the gutter with your levels OR old, and GH is so wicked expensive (especially in the US!!!  ) that these are not casual solutions for bodybuilders at all. People try to buy out of the country if they can, you can see my thread on US drug companies:

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20800

Believe it or not, I used to bring the stuff in from other countries.  And I was an abuser no doubt.   Alot of my stances that I take are from personnel experiences and mistakes that I try to lore people away from making.
*************


I dont have roid rage or anything like that so I'm not sitting here getting all steamed, I try to never, ever argue, I despise it and I think its childish. So feel free to discuss.

fuq you!!!  just kidding

*****************

I do recall though that you've been in and out of here several times and each time seems like its the last after you've made your statements  its not a judgement call or anything just an observation, but one that I think I can understand. You are trying to disuade people from doing this and thats going to happen.

Yes your correct.   I think I'm the only one that speaks the "other" side of the fence.   I feel people need to know both sides.   Sure you get big from the juice.  You read that in ever thread in here.  but you need that other voice sometimes to make people think.  You know as in anything,  there are negatives to every positive.   I tell the negatives the other 600 member in this section talk the positive.

I also want it known that I don't come in here to belittle people for using.  I don't start arguments or call people names because they use this stuff.  I don't look to make enemies here.  Believe it or not a few people PMed me asking for more info as to why they shouldn't use the stuff.  If I can deter 1 or 2 people then I accomplished something.
***************


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## Arnold (Sep 9, 2003)

I never said that steroids do no harm Mudge, any drug has the potential to do harm.


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## Mudge (Sep 9, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I never said that steroids do no harm Mudge, any drug has the potential to do harm.



Oy vey, I dont recall that I said that you said that, I believe in safe useage though yada yada.


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## Mudge (Sep 9, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> Yes your correct. I think I'm the only one that speaks the "other" side of the fence. I feel people need to know both sides. Sure you get big from the juice. You read that in ever thread in here. but you need that other voice sometimes to make people think. You know as in anything, there are negatives to every positive. I tell the negatives the other 600 member in this section talk the positive.



Some people have been turned away because of disouragement after they discover they dont know what in the hell they are doing, they just "want to do something right now to get big and ripped." So to some extent this is the responsibility of the person sticking the needle in thier own ass, and with that to some extent preaching is going to be unwelcome.



> *Believe it or not a few people PMed me asking for more info as to why they shouldn't use the stuff. If I can deter 1 or 2 people then I accomplished something.*



If they can easily be detered with a couple sentences they then dont belong using anyway, if they wont do the research on thier own and they just want the information GIVEN to them on a plate, screw off. You want to play doctor you better know what your doing, otherwise you dont care for your own well being.


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## Arnold (Sep 9, 2003)

Just for the record I do not use steroids, the only thing I use is 1-test and 4-ad (legal pro-steroids). 

IF anabolic steroids were legal, or at least available thru a doctor if someone wanted them (which I think should be the case) then I probably would use them. The main reason that I do not is because I have to much at risk. As we know it's a felony to posess without an Rx, and it's not worth it to me to take the risk of getting busted.

But, I have no problem with those that choose to use them, and I also realize that their widely used in many sports, and I think that is fine. firestorm obviously has some personal issue with steroids and he is entitled to his opinion, but I think he is really blowing steroid use out of proportion. I have known many bodybuilders that used them and their health is fine. Obviously there are some that ABUSE them, along with many other drugs and this causes long term health problems, even death. But I do not think that represents the majority of users.

*firestorm* read this article: http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/247gear.jsp


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## Mudge (Sep 9, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/247gear.jsp



There are a few docs on the msg boards as well, some that use.


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## Massed Bulk (Sep 9, 2003)

A/S and Drugs do NOT MIX.


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## firestorm (Sep 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Just for the record I do not use steroids, the only thing I use is 1-test and 4-ad (legal pro-steroids).
> 
> Well that is very good to hear. Seriously.
> ...


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## firestorm (Sep 13, 2003)

Uhh hoo I got to the name "Dan Duchaine" and stopped reading.  Isn't he the guy that was a steroid abuser, dealer, went to jail, came out and was all fuqed up due to steroid abuse (according to him)?  He had stated that his health problems were due to his steroid use.  He died young.


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## Mudge (Sep 13, 2003)

My reading tells me he had a life long kidney problem that was hereditary.


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## firestorm (Sep 13, 2003)

Mudge I'm only going by articles that were written by him.  That is what he said.  I also said earlier that your more of a risk when you have hereditary problems  such as liver, kidney,hear desease and or history of cancer.   Well I'm all talked out on this subject.  Peeps will do whatever they want.  Some will learn the hard way while others will not.  Peace/out.


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## Mudge (Sep 13, 2003)

Yep, a friend of mine lost her mother who NEVER drank, cirrhosis of the liver. Apperantly her and her mother both store fat deposits around the liver which somehow mean they are predisposed to liver problems.

GP commented and I can't disagree, that Dan's experiments probably pushed his body into a premature failure.


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## firestorm (Sep 13, 2003)

That's all I'm talking about Mudge that is it.


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## Randy (May 5, 2004)

It said he died of a speed ball.



> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Sounds like heavy use, + recreational drugs, not my way of doing it.


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## TrojanMan60563 (May 5, 2004)

firestorm I think there is a right and wrong way to do anything. Something healthy like vitamins can hurt you if overdone. This applies to just about everything in life. I have friends that drink and smoke(more then cigs) on a regular basis and they think I am stupid for wanting to be a bodybuilder and take steroids. They tell me how I am going to kill myself. The messed up thing is we know that drinking and smoking kills you no questions asked. Smoking causes cancer and kills thousands of people everyday, and drinking kills your liver. Taking reasonable doses of steroids hands down is healthier then their lifestyle IMO. If they were worse for you then with all the abuse out there bodybuilders would be dropping like flies. When steroids kills thousands of people daily then I will start to worry. There as not been any studies that prove steroids cause cancer or heart problems. The truth is just heavy lifting alone causes the heart to grow larger then normal. So saying that a steroid user died from an enlarged heart can't be directly related to the drugs because their heart would have been larger then normal if they were not on anything


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## Randy (May 5, 2004)

One thing I can say on this subject...  We are all going to die sometime.  Worrying about what will kill you can kill you


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## mikey_7777 (Jul 11, 2004)

Bodybuilding world own to much to Dan Duchaine.He give the first step to steroid world.


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## SJ69 (Jul 14, 2004)

This is an interesting dialog in many ways.  People take drugs to feel better, on way or another, it may be to look better which makes you feel better, to win, which makes you feel better, to beat diseases, which makes you feel better, etc.  It really comes down to a personal choice (hopefully educated) concerning the risk/reward ratio.
What about the person who takes Accutane, legally perscribed?  There are many risks (and some political BS) asociated with this drug.  Ultimately the patient decides if they want to look better and risk the sides or not look better and be healthier.
The politics are also amazing.  If I told my Doc that I wanted to be a female there prob wouldn't be any problem perscribing me high doses of estrogen, but if I told him I wanted to be more maculine there's no way he would write me high doses, or any doses of testosterone.
If you wanted to loose weight a few years ago you would be perscribed Phen-fen but now you can't even buy a WAY safer herbel alternative such as Stacker (real stacker that is).
You can't smpke dope legally to feel better, but there's no problem getting a drug that can have serious sides like Zyban ( I can;t remember the other name for it).
I agree with Firestorm, there are many risks involved with over the top BB drug use, and there's no clear line concerning what is reasonable and what is not.  That's why education and common sense is important.
I'm a libertarian at heart an believe that people should decide what is best for THEM, not the government.


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## Arnold (Jul 14, 2004)

SJ69 said:
			
		

> I'm a libertarian at heart an believe that people should decide what is best for THEM, not the government.


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## Evil ANT (Jul 15, 2004)

TrojanMan60563 said:
			
		

> I have friends that drink and smoke(more then cigs) on a regular basis and they think I am stupid for wanting to be a bodybuilder and take steroids. They tell me how I am going to kill myself. The messed up thing is we know that drinking and smoking kills you no questions asked. Smoking causes cancer and kills thousands of people everyday, and drinking kills your liver.


I totally agree and couldn't have said it better myself. I know people who smoke like chimneys, yet they act shocked when I tell them I have no problem with steroids. Same with every drinker I know.


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