# Carb up for half marathon



## Jenny (Jun 3, 2003)

I'm running a half marathon on Sunday and I want my glycogen levels to be high, when and with what should I do a carb up with?
Do I need it at all? I've been carb cycling for some time with low days at around 50g and high days around 80-100g. 
This weekend however, I attended a Spinning Instructor Education day with 3.5 hours of spinning, which made me raise carbs quite a lot on Sat and Sun.

Any ideas?


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## Jodi (Jun 3, 2003)

I would think that you could do a traditional Carb up meal as your last meal of the day the night before.  That will top off your glycogen stores.


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## Robboe (Jun 3, 2003)

She won't have full glycogen stores from one carb up meal.

At least, not unless she's been eating a reasonably high amount of carbs for a week or two.

If it was me, i'd begin carbing (not excessively) two days before hand.


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## Eggs (Jun 3, 2003)

I'd recommend a carb up the night before, medium to high range for you... and make sure you are super hydrated.  The morning of you can do something light (as in a banana , orange or something) but I wouldnt eat within an hour of the race even if its fruit.  Definitely want to sip some gatorade before... dont drink lots though, you'll either want to throw it up or you'll have to go pee.  Us guys can get away with that alot easier 

Oh, and most importantly... dont forget to remind him about that picnic basket the night before, but I'd be surprised if you were ravenous after running a half.  A nibble or two and lots of water will make you feel lots better afterwards though.  Help calm the stomach 

Oh, and on the run if there are any areas where you can run in shade rather than in direct sunlight (if its warm out), go in the shade.  The direct sun will sap your strength over longer distances and cause you to overheat.


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## Leslie (Jun 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> I would think that you could do a traditional Carb up meal as your last meal of the day the night before.  That will top off your glycogen stores.


I would have to disagree. I think you should start carb loading a day or two days prior to the race for guarantee against glycogen depletion.


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## Jodi (Jun 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> She won't have full glycogen stores from one carb up meal.
> 
> At least, not unless she's been eating a reasonably high amount of carbs for a week or two.
> ...


She said she raised carbs since this past weekened.


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## Leslie (Jun 3, 2003)

How long is the race? This article may help you as well

Glycogen Loading 

Glycogen loading (carbohydrate loading) has been popular since the late 1960's when Dr. Per-Olof Astrand showed that athletes can essentially double their muscle glycogen stores by running a long run 7 days before a race, then eating a low carbohydrate diet for 3 days, followed by a high carbohydrate diet (70-80% of calories from carbohydrates) for the 3 days preceding the race. The long run depletes your body's glycogen stores and the 3 days of low carbohydrate intake keeps them low. This triggers a mechanism in your body to store as much carbohydrate as possible. The down-side is that by day 3 of the low carbohydrate diet you will probably feel weak and irritable, and your loved ones will avoid you like the plague. 

Fortunately, more recent research by exercise physiologist William Sherman and others has shown that glycogen stores can be elevated to the same levels without the long run and low carbohydrate phases. Here's how. Eat a normal mixed diet up until the last 3 days before the race, and taper your training program to about half your normal training load. Then eat a high carbohydrate diet the last 3 days, and just do a warm-up jog on those days. Your body will store glycogen to a similar level as under Dr. Astrand's program. 

You should expect to gain a couple of pounds when you glycogen load because your body stores 2.6 grams of water for every gram of glycogen. Don't be alarmed by the added weight. It is inevitable, and the stored water will actually help to prevent dehydration during the race.


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## Jodi (Jun 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> I'd recommend a carb up the night before, medium to high range for you... and make sure you are super hydrated.  The morning of you can do something light (as in a banana , orange or something) but I wouldnt eat within an hour of the race even if its fruit.  Definitely want to sip some gatorade before... dont drink lots though, you'll either want to throw it up or you'll have to go pee.  Us guys can get away with that alot easier



I agree.  

If she wasn't eating any carbs than it would be different.  IMO

Race is half a marathon so thats 13 miles.  I don't think she needs 2 days of carb loading for 13 miles.


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## Robboe (Jun 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> She said she raised carbs since this past weekened.



Yeah, but after a further 6-7 days of that carb cycling idea, she'll flatten out a bit more.


I would DEFINATELY do two days now i think of it. The first day being the heavier of the two.

The second day going a lot easier - if you do only the night before, if you don't clear it out your system by the time the race comes round, you're going to feel heavy, sluggish and very uncomfortable.

And you may be forgetting that of the carbs you eat, only about 23-25% really get stored as glycogen (although i expect that figure is slightly higher if you're in a carb depleted state). The rest goes to other functions.


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## Robboe (Jun 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> Race is half a marathon so thats 13 miles.  I don't think she needs 2 days of carb loading for 13 miles.




Jodi, i'm certainly not picking on you here, but do you realise how long 13 miles actually is?

it's a longggggggggggg fuckin way.

Hell, i'd do a 2 day carb load for 8 miles.


Hitting the wall mid-race is a nightmare. I used to jog a bit when i was younger (although i swam more - was quite a good little front crawler actually) and i know how this feels.


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## Jodi (Jun 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Jodi, i'm certainly not picking on you here, but do you realise how long 13 miles actually is?
> 
> it's a longggggggggggg fuckin way.
> ...



Yes I know how long 13 miles is.  My sister is a marathon runner and I've trained with her many times and she does not eat 2 days of carb loading before a race.  She is actually racing a few weeks at the Kona Marathon in Hawaii.

She stays with the standard 3-4 carb meals a day and on the night before a race she carb loads.  She has tried carb loading for a few days and she feels too heavy the day of the race so she prefers to do it this way.  Of course her choice of carb load the night before is alot of feakin pasta and then fruit in the morning.

I thinks its a matter of preference.  Some people can get away with less carbs than others.


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## Robboe (Jun 3, 2003)

She sounds experienced to me.

No offense to Jenny, but since she has made a new thread about this, i'd guess she's not a regular half-marathon runner. I think she could use the carbs. Although that is personal opinion.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 3, 2003)

For the average person, assuming one is depleted, it takes 48 hours to supra-compensate glycogen stores, and a huge amount of carbs.


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## Jenny (Jun 3, 2003)

Lots of replies here! thank you guys! 

I ate 46g of carbs yesterday and have only been slightly over today, so I haven't really raised carbs yet. I raised them on sat and sun, but haven't since.

I really don't want to feel heavy and bloated on race day, that would not feel too good.

TCD, you're right on the money, this is my first half marathon and I really don't know how my body will react. I usually run around 10km on low carb days without feeling too bad though. 

What should I use for the carb up, both high and low glycemic carbs or only low glycemic?


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## Jenny (Jun 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> I'd recommend a carb up the night before, medium to high range for you... and make sure you are super hydrated.  The morning of you can do something light (as in a banana , orange or something) but I wouldnt eat within an hour of the race even if its fruit.  Definitely want to sip some gatorade before... dont drink lots though, you'll either want to throw it up or you'll have to go pee.  Us guys can get away with that alot easier
> 
> Oh, and on the run if there are any areas where you can run in shade rather than in direct sunlight (if its warm out), go in the shade.  The direct sun will sap your strength over longer distances and cause you to overheat.



Would I really want to consume high glycemic carbs before the race? Wouldn't that just give a negative insulin release? I thought I was supposed to get some high glycemic carbs during the race (like gatorade) once my blood sugar levels start going down..  

Oh, and no shade, we're running on a friggin bridge!!


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## Robboe (Jun 3, 2003)

On one hand, i'd say avoid high GI because leptin isn't the issue here - glycogen supercompensation is.

However, on the other hand, if you were really trying to "top off" your glycogen levels over two days, you really would need to eat a lot of carbs, during which, the Glycaemic Load (GL) would come into play - which basically means eating enough of a low GI food makes it act like a high GI food (since GI is just a measure of 50g of carbs worth of a particular carb source, and how fast it takes to increase blood sugar levels), since more of the carb source will be in contact with the intestinal wall (think larger surface area so higher percentage of absorption, so more glucose gets through quicker, resulting in a high-GI-esque carb source). In that regard, i doubt it matters.

But just to prevent you going off on a binge, i'd say stick to clean, low GI, complex carb sources.

And be sure to make the first day of the two the heavier and go easy the second day to ensure all the waste products pass through you in time for the race.


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## Robboe (Jun 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jenny *_
> Would I really want to consume high glycemic carbs before the race? Wouldn't that just give a negative insulin release?




If you do, don't consume too much (just a gentle sip every so often when you need it) or else, like me, you may start to feel sluggish and lethargic.


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## Jenny (Jun 3, 2003)

Makes sense.. 
How much are we talking here? Roughly around how many grams?
And how good will fruits be, is fructose good for this type of carb load?

Should I start raising carbs to around 80-100g for the rest of the week?

Oh, and thanks!


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## Jenny (Jun 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> If you do, don't consume too much (just a gentle sip every so often when you need it) or else, like me, you may start to feel sluggish and lethargic.



You mean during race or before?


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## Robboe (Jun 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jenny *_
> You mean during race or before?



Both.


How many grams the days before is most likely going to be dependant upon your bodyweight and LBM. There's no need to overfeed.

However, at a guess, i'd imagine the first day to consist of about 400g carbs (over the whole day), and then day two to be about 250g carbs over the entire day. Just so you're not feeling heavy on the day of the race.


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## Jenny (Jun 3, 2003)

Also, should I keep the protein and fat grams I normally eat? I get around 200g protein and around 45-60g fat daily..


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## Jenny (Jun 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> However, at a guess, i'd imagine the first day to consist of about 400g carbs (over the whole day), and then day two to be about 250g carbs over the entire day. Just so you're not feeling heavy on the day of the race.



400g??  That's a LOT of food!!


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## Robboe (Jun 3, 2003)

Yeah, but if you start to feel uncomfortable or bloated, don't worry about dropping protein and/or fat down a bit to compensate for the extra carbs.

At least not for one day anyway.


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## Robboe (Jun 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jenny *_
> 400g??  That's a LOT of food!!




I know, hence why it depends upon your bodyweight and LBM.

There's no set equation for this really, but i'd say eat 10-15% above your maintenance calories (bodyweight x 12 for simplicities sake) and make about 60-70% carbs.

or there abouts.


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## Eggs (Jun 3, 2003)

I'm really not experienced with planning for marathons and halfs... I generally just went out and did them.  My main recommendation is not to drink any alcohol within 10 minutes of starting the race, I'm not going to say how I learned that 

I did just have a lady who has been running long distance for 35 years over helping me with some flowers... she pretty much said the same thing.  Eat some carbs a day to two before (she recommended pasta)... some good proteins along with that such as fish.  Then she recommended sipping gatorade or powerade the day before and the morning of the run.

Hehe, and dont worry about it, you're going to do great.

Can you ask M to get some pics?


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## Jenny (Jun 4, 2003)

Ok peeps, once again I want to thank you for all your help! 

Jodi was kind enough to email her sister for me and the suggestions the sis made really made sense. So, I'm not doing this major carb up, it would probably just shock the hell outa my body and not give me very good results. Upping carbs to 100g for the rest of this week and will do a carb up on saturday night. 
Well, I guess it's trial and error.. 

Again, thanks all, especially Jodi


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## TJohn (Jun 4, 2003)

It's definitely trial and error. Everyone is different. I've done 4 1/2's, the first I didn't even know what carb loading was and I finished it half dead (but I did finish) After reading my ass off after that I doubled my carb intake for 4 days b4 the race and kept plenty of gels with me during and I felt great. BTW I will never run a full marathon. For most people they are very bad for well being. The elite few..... have fun!

TJ


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## Jodi (Jun 4, 2003)

Thats exactly what she's doing TJohn   She is increasing her carbs to about 100G for the next 4 days and then having a carb meal the night before the race.  She was approx. 50G carbs per day.  

Jenny keep us informed and let us know how you do.  Good Luck!


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## Fit Freak (Jun 4, 2003)

Again I don't like to inteven...but a couple years ago I was running about 50 miles per week and did a few halfers myself......we all have to realize the ideal diet for an endurance athlete is VERY VERY VERY VERY different from a BB diet.  You're saying 100g of carbs for 4 days and them a carb-up at night...well what if she trains (runs) during the week...100g will mean she'll be excessively depleted all week and 1 varb-up won't do the trick.

My suggestion is to eat like you do until 2 days prior...then I would decrease protein and fat....and try to eat about 3 grams per lb 2 days out...then about 1.5g/lb the day before...and the morning of...something light like a complex carb and fruit a couple hurs before.  These 2 days leading up to the race should be rest days to allow the glucogen stores to fill.

If you're depleted all week...and you pretty much will be even on 100g/day....a single carb up isn't gonna do it..unless you enjoy hitting THE WALL.....ever experienced that?...it's not pleasant!


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## TJohn (Jun 4, 2003)

50 miles per week!! That would be approx 7 miles every day. Are you sure you ran that much?? I was running about 20 mpw last year. I agree with you about resting a few days b4 the race, but the nutrition end is still trail and error. Some people can do fine on 50-100 gms of carbs while training. My brother being one. It's the type of carbs and consistency that counts. And yes the runners diet is way different than the bber's.

TJ


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## Fit Freak (Jun 4, 2003)

TJohn...yes...there were weeks when I ran more...I was training to do an Ironman...BUT I ended up with an overuse injury ....IT-Band Sundrome.....took forever to get better...that was the end of my triathlon (Ironman) days...lol


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## Eggs (Jun 4, 2003)

Sounds great Jenny   Let us know how it goes!


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## Eggs (Jun 4, 2003)

I wouldnt recommend running more than 25 - 30 miles a week.  I as well have done the 50s FF and its alot of strain on the body over time, even with a good diet.

Reminds me of late one night I ran around the island I was living on in boots... it was about 25.8 miles or so.  Perhaps one of the stupidest things I have done, got ITB bad and limped for about 1 1/2 months.  However, the run (at 3AM) was very fun... I recommend it to everyone, but skip the boots.


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## TJohn (Jun 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Fit Freak *_
> TJohn...yes...there were weeks when I ran more...I was training to do an Ironman...BUT I ended up with an overuse injury ....IT-Band Sundrome.....took forever to get better...that was the end of my triathlon (Ironman) days...lol



Wow! That's a lot of training! I think marathon training is only handled well by an elite few. Most bodies will reject with noticable effects, weight gain, stress related illnesses. It takes a mentally strong person, I commend you!

TJ


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## TJohn (Jun 4, 2003)

Eggs, is that your dog? I think sheps are awesome dogs!

TJ


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## Eggs (Jun 4, 2003)

Yeah, his names Heathcliff


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## Jenny (Jun 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Fit Freak *_
> Again I don't like to inteven...but a couple years ago I was running about 50 miles per week and did a few halfers myself......we all have to realize the ideal diet for an endurance athlete is VERY VERY VERY VERY different from a BB diet.  You're saying 100g of carbs for 4 days and them a carb-up at night...well what if she trains (runs) during the week...100g will mean she'll be excessively depleted all week and 1 varb-up won't do the trick.
> 
> My suggestion is to eat like you do until 2 days prior...then I would decrease protein and fat....and try to eat about 3 grams per lb 2 days out...then about 1.5g/lb the day before...and the morning of...something light like a complex carb and fruit a couple hurs before.  These 2 days leading up to the race should be rest days to allow the glucogen stores to fill.
> ...



One of Jodi's sisters points was that since I have been running on low carb days without feeling too bad, my body knows how to utilize glycogen to its fullest potential.
I ran on monday and was supposed to run yesterday, but decided not to (due to headache, probably from hot weather). Was supposed to teach a spinning class on friday, but managed to get another girl to teach it for me. Will be weighttraining today (thursday) and tomorrow.
I'd really like to go for a last run today, since I missed one yesterday, would that be a bad idea? 

I upped carbs to about 130g yesterday, a lot of it coming from fruits. I'm pretty confused right now, so many people advising..  I'll just up my carbs a little more on friday and saturday and take your advise for the pre-run meal on sunday. Are there any supplements that would help as well?
I'm thinking glutamine, creatine, pyuvate, BCAAs? They're all in my drawers, so I might as well take some.. 

I'm not looking for a win here or anything , but I would like to do well for myself. 
A lot of people from work here are doing the half marathon, I see them munch on sugary stuff all day long and I don't think they've ever seen a pair of running shoes..  I have to beat all of them or I'll kill myself..


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## Robboe (Jun 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jenny *_
> One of Jodi's sisters points was that since I have been running on low carb days without feeling too bad, my body knows how to utilize glycogen to its fullest potential.



Quick question:

How far do you currently run in one go?


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## Jenny (Jun 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Quick question:
> 
> How far do you currently run in one go?



About 10km.


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## Fit Freak (Jun 5, 2003)

Just remember that you're going to be running over double that this weekend...also I woldn't suggest doing weights on Friday and none of those supplements you listed will affect (improve) your performance.

Eggs/TJohn...yeah I definately hit the overtraining area....since 2 years now it's been back to BBing all the way!  Still enjoy the odd run though...but uder 10k these days...anything more and I flatten out


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## Jenny (Jun 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Fit Freak *_
> and none of those supplements you listed will affect (improve) your performance.



 Really? That's not what I've been taught..
Not a majot improvement for sure, but I would think some of them could help some.. Prevent muscle loss if nothing else..


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## TJohn (Jun 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jenny *_
> Really? That's not what I've been taught..
> Not a majot improvement for sure, but I would think some of them could help some.. Prevent muscle loss if nothing else..



The only way those sups would help you is if you've taken them consistantly for a long while, not right b4 the run.

TJ


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## TJohn (Jun 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> Yeah, his names Heathcliff



Awesome name for a pooch! I've got 2, black lab (Casey) and Dalmatian (Sparky)







TJ


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## Jenny (Jun 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by TJohn *_
> The only way those sups would help you is if you've taken them consistantly for a long while, not right b4 the run.
> 
> TJ



Well,  I have!  I didn't mean it in a "yeah, and then I'm gonna pop these magic pills which will make me run like superwoman"- type of way..

Aww, that doggie is so cute!  I have a black lab as well!


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## TJohn (Jun 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jenny *_
> Well,  I have!  I didn't mean it in a "yeah, and then I'm gonna pop these magic pills which will make me run like superwoman"- type of way..



I was hoping that is what you'd say  

Sparky is a devil!!






TJ


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## Robboe (Jun 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Fit Freak *_
> Just remember that you're going to be running over double that this weekend...



Yeah, that's partially why i asked her.

I'd still do what Fit Freak said at the end of the first page personally.


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## Jenny (Jun 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Yeah, that's partially why i asked her.
> 
> I'd still do what Fit Freak said at the end of the first page personally.



Thanks. I will up the carbs tomorrow and on saturday along with decreasing fat and protein a little. However, I'll try to find a middle way, I can't handle 3g per lbs. Unless I'm allowed candy..


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## Jenny (Jun 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by TJohn *_
> I was hoping that is what you'd say
> 
> Sparky is a devil!!
> ...



Aww, Sparky is such a sweet heart! 

Ok, you just made my serious marathon thread a doggie thread..


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## TJohn (Jun 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jenny *_
> Aww, Sparky is such a sweet heart!
> 
> Ok, you just made my serious marathon thread a doggie thread..



No No  what I meant when I said "that is what I hope you said" is about the sups not Spark 

Run baby Run!!!!

TJ


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## Jenny (Jun 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by TJohn *_
> No No  what I meant when I said "that is what I hope you said" is about the sups not Spark
> 
> Run baby Run!!!!
> ...



Haha, well, I knew that! 

Thanks!


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## Jodi (Jun 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jenny *_
> However, I'll try to find a middle way



  Good Idea.  I would be all confused as to which to do as well.  Find what works for you!


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## Jenny (Jun 5, 2003)

Thanks Jodi, I will 

Btw, I love your new sig!


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