# Is HCG effective by itself?



## soxmuscle (Feb 2, 2006)

_see subject._


----------



## Pirate! (Feb 2, 2006)

*No*

_see subject_


----------



## soxmuscle (Feb 2, 2006)

thanks, i didnt think so.  a friend of mine purchased it and was going to start using it by itself, but first of all i told him it wasn't smart to use that kind of a supplement at this point and time, and second of all it wasn't going to do anything by itself.

thanks again, pirate.


----------



## Mudge (Feb 2, 2006)

Effective in what? Unless he is masturbating 50 times a day he shouldn't need it..?


----------



## redspy (Feb 2, 2006)

Not, unless you're a women looking to get pregnant.


----------



## soxmuscle (Feb 2, 2006)

haha, all good answers.

i really have no idea.  he seems to think he's pretty knowledgable but your guys responses are putting that to shame.

he seemed to think that it was a cheaper, similarly effective form of growth hormone but that was proven wrong in pirates original posting.

im curious, because he seems keen on taking it.  what will happen if he takes it alone?  i mean, if theres no muscle growth, what the hell is going to go on by injecting it?


----------



## kicka19 (Feb 2, 2006)

it wont do shit


----------



## redspy (Feb 2, 2006)

The attraction to him probably is that it mimics luteinizing hormone, which will stimulate test production.  However, it's also supressive so his natural test production will cease temporarily.  The net effect is probably lower overall test levels.  Clearly not a good idea.


----------



## Tough Old Man (Feb 3, 2006)

Hcg will bring the testes back to normal. But it's not going to get your natural test production back to normal. This is why you need Nolva / Clomid ect.


----------



## Tha Don (Feb 3, 2006)

redspy said:
			
		

> The net effect is probably lower overall test levels.


are you sure about that? what about if his test levels were already slightly supressed? i have read that hcg is an option off cycle for those experiencing recovery problems, if it mimicks LH which stimulates nat testosterone production how is it going to lead to lower test levels? i understand it might lower them temporarily after use as your body is recognising exogenus LH and stopping production of its own, but after say a 10 day period and once the hcg is out your system LH would rise again to possibly a higher level than before to maintain the level of test being produced by your system wouldn't it? that is my understanding of it anyway


----------



## ZECH (Feb 3, 2006)

young d said:
			
		

> are you sure about that? what about if his test levels were already slightly supressed? i have read that hcg is an option off cycle for those experiencing recovery problems, if it mimicks LH which stimulates nat testosterone production how is it going to lead to lower test levels? i understand it might lower them temporarily after use as your body is recognising exogenus LH and stopping production of its own, but after say a 10 day period and once the hcg is out your system LH would rise again to possibly a higher level than before to maintain the level of test being produced by your system wouldn't it? that is my understanding of it anyway


Yes, HCG is suppresive.


----------



## Tha Don (Feb 3, 2006)

dg806 said:
			
		

> Yes, HCG is suppresive.


yes i am aware of that, but in the long run would running hcg result in lower test levels? (ceteris paribus)

if it would then why run the stuff?


----------



## ZECH (Feb 3, 2006)

Not if you use it during cycle. Don't use it PC or by itself.


----------



## redspy (Feb 3, 2006)

young d said:
			
		

> yes i am aware of that, but in the long run would running hcg result in lower test levels? (ceteris paribus)
> 
> if it would then why run the stuff?


 
HCG plays an important role, within a specific timeline of your cycle. You can run it all the way through your cycle to reduce the highly suppressive of androgens like Tren. The HCG won't shut you down as the tren has already done that, obviously you can't have -LH levels, zero is as low as it goes. Used this way HCG will keep your boys at a reasonable size and ensures the Leydig cells are regularly functioning. 

Running HCG towards the end of a cycle is also another widely used tactic to initiate the recovery process, that is pulse the Leydig cells to produce LH. Nolva or clomid are then employed to restore the HPTA (by lowering estrogen, increasing spermatogenesis and increasing LH/Test)

Another thing to consider is that HCG usage on its own will not only suppress test production, it also increases estrogen. It doesn't take the hypothalamus long to realize there's an imbalance. When test production reinitiates will vary from person to person.  Fluctuating test levels don't make a stable anabolic environment.

Bottom line is there's no meaningful benefit of using HCG alone, however, used at the appropriate time in a cycle it's a valuable tool.


----------



## topolo (Feb 3, 2006)

redspy said:
			
		

> HCG plays an important role, within a specific timeline of your cycle. You can run it all the way through your cycle to reduce the highly suppressive of androgens like Tren. The HCG won't shut you down as the tren has already done that, obviously you can't have -LH levels, zero is as low as it goes. Used this way HCG will keep your boys at a reasonable size and ensures the Leydig cells are regularly functioning.
> 
> Running HCG towards the end of a cycle is also another widely used tactic to initiate the recovery process, that is pulse the Leydig cells to produce LH. Nolva or clomid are then employed to restore the HPTA (by lowering estrogen, increasing spermatogenesis and increasing LH/Test)
> 
> ...



But not after? I was told by a Doctor to start it about 3 weeks post cycle. What a jackass.


----------



## topolo (Feb 3, 2006)

http://www.extremefitness.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-39262.html


----------



## redspy (Feb 3, 2006)

Some people also think it's a good idea to run Proviron during PCT because of the alledged anti-estrogen effects.  However, Proviron is suppressive too.  How can your HPTA recover when a negative feedback loop is in action?


----------



## topolo (Feb 3, 2006)

I am seriously confused by all of this.


----------



## redspy (Feb 3, 2006)

Hopefully words of wisdom from Dr Swale (MD & HRT Specialist) will put this to bed:-



> *I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery*, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a bridge. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can't fool the body, it is smarter than you are.


----------



## Tha Don (Feb 3, 2006)

> you can't fool the body, it is smarter than you are.


Amen


----------



## topolo (Feb 3, 2006)

redspy said:
			
		

> Hopefully words of wisdom from Dr Swale (MD & HRT Specialist) will put this to bed:-



So if you're on week 8 of a 10 week cycle and you haven't started using hcg, you should just avoid it, right?


----------



## redspy (Feb 3, 2006)

topolo said:
			
		

> So if you're on week 8 of a 10 week cycle and you haven't started using hcg, you should just avoid it, right?


 
You could start at week 8 and still reap benefits. Even if you start later (using a long ester) you could use HCG between your last inject and when you start Nolva/Clomid.


----------



## topolo (Feb 3, 2006)

redspy said:
			
		

> You could start at week 8 and still reap benefits. Even if you start later (using a long ester) you could use HCG between your last inject and when you start Nolva/Clomid.



Which should be how long after last test shot? I am assuming nothing at this point.


----------



## redspy (Feb 3, 2006)

You could start immediately after your last shot and run it for a couple of weeks max.   JMO.


----------



## topolo (Feb 3, 2006)

redspy said:
			
		

> You could start immediately after your last shot and run it for a couple of weeks max.   JMO.



pct or hcg?


----------



## Tha Don (Feb 4, 2006)

topolo said:
			
		

> pct or hcg?


i'd avocate both


----------



## Tough Old Man (Feb 4, 2006)

redspy said:
			
		

> You could start at week 8 and still reap benefits. Even if you start later (using a long ester) you could use HCG between your last inject and when you start Nolva/Clomid.


Here's is what I would do

*A lot of Short cycles a year*

You want to start the HCG about the last ten days of your cycle and continue for another 7 days. So that's a total of 17 days. An injection of 500 ius every 3 days for those 17 days will bring the boys home. That's about 6 injections or 3000ius

*1 or 2 longer cycles a year (10-12 weekers )*

Run HCG the whole cycle @ 250 ius every 4 days plus 1 extra week past your last injection of gear. 

Tough


----------



## topolo (Feb 4, 2006)

Thanks Tough


----------



## Tough Old Man (Feb 4, 2006)

topolo said:
			
		

> Thanks Tough


No problem brother.


----------

