# No Whey No Way



## microtel (Apr 20, 2007)

I have been using eating/drinking protein powders for 2 years, and this may be a tired old argument, however...

Numerous MD's, medical doctors and endocrinologists tell me that ALL of the whey/glutamine/protein powders on the market get passed through the body quickly and are useless for building muscle. Powders (fake food) never are absorbed to make a real difference in muscle building, according to several docs. The MD's say it's a marketing scam to believe "Whey powder" or any protein powder will build muscle. Other amateur BBs tell me that they're off powders too b/c it makes them feel bloated and fat. Anyone relate to this?

It's a fair question. Where is the scientific evidence protein powders contribute to building muscle?  Most MDs tell me I will get better protein absorption from eating a hamburger. That's well known already. Real food always works. Then why do so many BBs eat powder protein?  Is it only for sponsorship?  I have been buying whey for two years and it seems to be more of a psychological boost than a physical advantage. 

What do you guys think? These same MD's also tell me there's no scientific 
evidence that a multivitamin does any good either.


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## tucker01 (Apr 20, 2007)

So basically they say it goes right through the system?  That makes alot of sense.

Get your cals purely from shakes, see what happens.  As long as you are at the same caloric output with real food, nothing would change.  I would love to hear there scientific evidence to support there findings.

I am not saying this is the case, but you would be suprised at the number of Doctors that know jack shit about nutrition.


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## forum9351 (Apr 20, 2007)

> I am not saying this is the case, but you would be suprised at the number of Doctors that know jack shit about nutrition.



I'm taking a college nutrition class with a woman who has a Phd in clinical nutrition and has worked in and out of hospitals and clinics. She said most doctors don't know much about nutrition. In fact, she said that the hospitals are one of places where people are most nutrient deprieved. 
         As far as the whey controversy, I study organic chemistry and there are two structures for amino acids. One is metabolized by the body and one is not. The one that is metabolized is found in nature and the one that is not has to be made in a lab, previously it did not even exist ( I think it is the L-form for most amino acids). When chemists make these amino acids, both structures will inevitably be a product because both structures are just as stable. They would have to seperate the good structure from the bad structure then. ( If any of you take bcaa's, look at the nutririton label and see if there is one form, it should say R or L. If both are present, then one is doing nothing for you!)  Anyways proteins are broken down in the body to be absorbed as amino acids. I wonder if the alternate structure of the amino acid make up protein, then it wound't be metabolized. Interesting...


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## P-funk (Apr 20, 2007)

not only do most doctors not know about nutrition.  most of them know alomost nothing about exercise science.

find someone that specializes in sports medicine.  or find an exercise physiologist and talk to them.


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## Arnold (Apr 20, 2007)

microtel said:


> I have been using eating/drinking protein powders for 2 years, and this may be a tired old argument, however...
> 
> Numerous MD's, medical doctors and endocrinologists tell me that ALL of the whey/glutamine/protein powders on the market get passed through the body quickly and are useless for building muscle. Powders (fake food) never are absorbed to make a real difference in muscle building, according to several docs. The MD's say it's a marketing scam to believe "Whey powder" or any protein powder will build muscle. Other amateur BBs tell me that they're off powders too b/c it makes them feel bloated and fat. Anyone relate to this?
> 
> ...



whey protein is a byproduct of milk, why would the body not absorb it?


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## rmcfar (Apr 20, 2007)

what he ^  said.

as far as i know all whey protein poweders are derrived from food at one point. so how on earth would your body be able to recognize an amino from a hamburger and an amino from a protein shake?


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## DiGiTaL (Apr 20, 2007)

not-so-intelligent-person-here: 
well, If protein shakes has all that chemicals/ingredients in it (ie, protein, vitamins, iron, fat etc...), It would have to be absorbed cause protein cannot be urinated, if it does the kidney is mulfunctioning. So the protein and other chemicals in it has to be absorbed.



> whey protein is a byproduct of milk, why would the body not absorb it?


 
Im gonna say that if anyone asked me about protein shakes. lol.


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## Nigeepoo (Apr 20, 2007)

DiGiTaL said:


> not-so-intelligent-person-here:
> well, If protein shakes has all that chemicals/ingredients in it (ie, protein, vitamins, iron, fat etc...), It would have to be absorbed cause protein cannot be urinated, if it does the kidney is mulfunctioning.


Dietary protein is broken down into Amino Acids (AAs) and absorbed. Those AAs which aren't used for protein synthesis can be broken down into a carbon bit and a nitrogen bit. The carbon bit is converted into glucose which then follows the glucose pathway (burned, stored as glycogen or converted into fat) and the nitrogen bit is converted into urea, which is urinated out. Some AAs can be broken down into a ketone bit and a nitrogen bit.


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## femalemuscle (Apr 20, 2007)

Dr.'s dont know shit about nutrition. Look at em, they are old, flabby and fat....haaaaaaaaa


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## forum9351 (Apr 20, 2007)

femalemuscle said:


> Dr.'s dont know shit about nutrition. Look at em, they are old, flabby and fat....haaaaaaaaa



Dr.'s know a lot and they contribute a lot to society. however some just suck.


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## forum9351 (Apr 20, 2007)

DiGiTaL said:


> not-so-intelligent-person-here:
> well, If protein shakes has all that chemicals/ingredients in it (ie, protein, vitamins, iron, fat etc...), It would have to be absorbed cause protein cannot be urinated, if it does the kidney is mulfunctioning. So the protein and other chemicals in it has to be absorbed.
> 
> 
> ...


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## forum9351 (Apr 20, 2007)

So whey protein is bi-product of dairy. Does anyone know how protein powders are made? do they isolate it from foods or is it chemically engineered in a lab?


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## PeteyPablo7 (Apr 20, 2007)

*I Agree*

I agree, I've used protein powders before and I think it's pretty insignificant or zero difference. It's a complete marketing scam; it's all in the mind. Natural is the best way to go; foods like tuna, some meats, etc. The only thing though about a hamburger is I believe that when you cook the food you kill some of the proteins... but I'm not exactly sure. It's definitely a marketing ploy that truly doesn't do much or anything when comparing to eating proteins in food. I can say this fairly confidently.


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## microtel (Apr 21, 2007)

PeteyPablo7 said:


> I agree, I've used protein powders before and I think it's pretty insignificant or zero difference. It's a complete marketing scam; it's all in the mind. Natural is the best way to go; foods like tuna, some meats, etc. The only thing though about a hamburger is I believe that when you cook the food you kill some of the proteins... but I'm not exactly sure. It's definitely a marketing ploy that truly doesn't do much or anything when comparing to eating proteins in food. I can say this fairly confidently.




Thanks for all the replys. Again, some docs do have a grasp on nutrition, the sources I'm sighting include all MDs: an endocrinologist, a family physician, a doctor who specializes in stomach and gastrology(sp?), and a urologist. 

I think all of us on this board want any advantage for muscle growth and better health but EVERY doc I talk to says the same thing about protein powders and multi-vitamins, no proof they work or are absorbed efficiently. None of my docs say the powders are dangerous, just that there is no absolute proof, no scientific studies to support the claims of better health and muscle growth with vitamins or protein powders. None. That's it.


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## MCx2 (Apr 21, 2007)

microtel said:


> Thanks for all the replys. Again, some docs do have a grasp on nutrition, the sources I'm sighting include all MDs: an endocrinologist, a family physician, a doctor who specializes in stomach and gastrology(sp?), and a urologist.
> 
> I think all of us on this board want any advantage for muscle growth and better health but EVERY doc I talk to says the same thing about protein powders and multi-vitamins, no proof they work or are absorbed efficiently. None of my docs say the powders are dangerous, just that there is no absolute proof, no scientific studies to support the claims of better health and muscle growth with vitamins or protein powders. None. That's it.



They also have no proof that they don't work either. That's not what they do. When you get someone that actually deals with nutrition on a regular basis tell you these things, get back to us.


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## microtel (Apr 21, 2007)

ReproMan said:


> They also have no proof that they don't work either. That's not what they do. When you get someone that actually deals with nutrition on a regular basis tell you these things, get back to us.





Do you know of any? Or do you work with a supplement company?

I'm not about avoid all powders yet but they seem to be more of psychological
advantage rather than a physical advantage.


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## MCx2 (Apr 21, 2007)

microtel said:


> Do you know of any? Or do you work with a supplement company?
> 
> I'm not about avoid all powders yet but they seem to be more of psychological
> advantage rather than a physical advantage.



I don't. But I'm certainly not going to hang on the words of someone that isn't in the field, regardless of what it says on their diploma. Just because someone is a doctor, does not make them an expert in every aspect of health and nutrition (or any for that matter.)


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## forum9351 (Apr 21, 2007)

ReproMan said:


> I don't. But I'm certainly not going to hang on the words of someone that isn't in the field, regardless of what it says on their diploma. Just because someone is a doctor, does not make them an expert in every aspect of health and nutrition (or any for that matter.)



doctors are experts of health; however, they may be wrong sometimes. If a doctor tells me something that I might not completely understand, it's defenitely worth investigating and getting numerous opinoins on.


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## MCx2 (Apr 21, 2007)

forum9351 said:


> doctors are experts of health; however, they may be wrong sometimes. If a doctor tells me something that I might not completely understand, it's defenitely worth investigating and getting numerous opinoins on.



Not every aspect. They are experts in their field. You don't go to a Radiologist to find out why your throat is sore and you certainly don't go to a Urologist to find out if your protein supplement is effective....


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## forum9351 (Apr 21, 2007)

good point


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## Spaceman Spiff (Apr 21, 2007)

Totally Biased here of course and I am far from the expert on anything.....but I can tell you several things.

All The Whey was started by men with 70 years of combined experience in the dairy, sports nutrition and nutraceutical industries. 

I deal with tons of Weight Loss Surgery and Bariatric Patients all the time. Right after surgery they must maintain a strict all liquid diet for a couple of weeks. They depend on our product to deliver the protein and other nutrients they need TO LIVE! If none of the protein was getting absorbed then they would get real sick real quick. I also deal with many Celiac Patients who use our products because they can't have any Wheat Gluten.

I can also tell you that I have many customers that are body builders, athletes, nutritionists, doctors, dieters and just your average Joe who all swear by our product.

I personally have been using our Whey Protein Isolate & Meal Replacers for almost a year now and it's helped me drop about 60 pounds while still getting my needed daily intake! Not to toot my own horn here, but prior to working for All The Whey I was really up there! All told I have lost about 100 lbs and have about 50 more to go to reach my goal! Just so you know I am currently about 270. I am just starting to kick some major ass and once I reach my goal I'll be an F'ing Adonis!

But I digress........

Here is a little science for ya if you like that angle:

__________________________________________________
*Q* How does whey protein compare to other protein sources? 
*A* All The WheyTM Protein Powder is defined as a complete protein because it contains all the essential amino acids which the body requires. 

A number of different methods are used to evaluate protein quality but regardless of which method is used, whey protein comes out on top each time. 


Protein source         PDCAAS(1)  BV(2)     PER(3)    PD(4)      NPU(5) 
Whey Powder    1.15        104          3.6        98          92 
Soy Protein       1.00         74          2.1        95          61 
Beef                 1.00        80          2.9        98          73 



(1) Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score measures protein quality based on amino acid requirements of the human body 

(2) Biological Value measures the amount of protein that is retained from the absorbed protein 

(3) Protein Efficiency Ratio measures the ability of a protein to support growth 

(4) Protein Digestibility measures the fraction of the dietary protein that is absorbed from the diet 

(5) Net Protein Utilization expresses the ratio of nitrogen used for tissue formation to the amount of nitrogen ingested. 
_______________________________________________________________

The bottom line is that there is plenty to support the benefits of Whey Protein products, I am living proof if nothing else.


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## Witchblade (Apr 21, 2007)

Whether you're eating food, drinking shakes, taking pills or getting nutrients injected straight into your bloodstream, your body will use it. Your body doesn't care how it gets into your stomache, and when it does get there it uses everything it can use, regardless of form.


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## forum9351 (Apr 21, 2007)

The answer to this questions lies in organic chemistry. If the same whey protein molecule is found in milk as in powder, it will without doubt be metabolized by the body. Since proteins are broken down to be absorbed as amino acids, it depends on whether the structure of the amino acid is the same in the powder as in the milk.


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## LAM (Apr 21, 2007)

P-funk said:


> not only do most doctors not know about nutrition.  most of them know alomost nothing about exercise science.
> 
> find someone that specializes in sports medicine.  or find an exercise physiologist and talk to them.



I try to tell people this all the time.  most gen practice MD's are cluleless about nutrition in general for the average joe.  and in regards to the nutrient requirements for athletes asking them anything is a complete waste of time.  

ReproMan is right on as well.


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## DiGiTaL (Apr 21, 2007)

> Dietary protein is broken down into Amino Acids (AAs) and absorbed. Those AAs which aren't used for protein synthesis can be broken down into a carbon bit and a nitrogen bit. The carbon bit is converted into glucose which then follows the glucose pathway (burned, stored as glycogen or converted into fat) and the nitrogen bit is converted into urea, which is urinated out. Some AAs can be broken down into a ketone bit and a nitrogen bit.



Yes Sir.
I totally forgot that if too much protein is consumed it is then urinated. Good to know, Thanks for the info.


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## PeteyPablo7 (Apr 21, 2007)

<quote> Whether you're eating food, drinking shakes, taking pills or getting nutrients injected straight into your bloodstream, your body will use it. Your body doesn't care how it gets into your stomache, and when it does get there it uses everything it can use, regardless of form.


Exactly! Buying protein shakes would be merely a post-workout meal replacement. Nothing more, nothing less. Not a magic pill. I don't have a huge amount of experience to back my claim, but I've talked to an expert who has a degree in sports medicine, and certainly is very credible.


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## Blooming Lotus (Apr 21, 2007)

microtel said:


> I have been using eating/drinking protein powders for 2 years, and this may be a tired old argument, however...
> 
> Numerous MD's, medical doctors and endocrinologists tell me that ALL of the whey/glutamine/protein powders on the market get passed through the body quickly and are useless for building muscle. Powders (fake food) never are absorbed to make a real difference in muscle building, according to several docs. The MD's say it's a marketing scam to believe "Whey powder" or any protein powder will build muscle. Other amateur BBs tell me that they're off powders too b/c it makes them feel bloated and fat. Anyone relate to this?
> 
> ...




I really like the way you explain your issues around it.  
The reason a burger would give you a better protein bio-availabilty and absorption is because to be any good for muscle growth, protein has to have something to bond to,..like a complex carb for example. So even the shitty little bit you'd get from a burger would go further twd that than just doing a shake where it was virtually all protein.

Protein is the mortar in muscle .. the stuff that sticks it together and packs it dense.
On average protein takes 6- 8 and up to 10 hrs to digest.  If you don't uuse all that protein or can't absorb the aminos it breaks down into, as it breaks down you just pee it out as urea. 
.. aand get that bloaty thing going because it stacks cummulatively as you add serves through the day,  and besides being the nature of the texture of protein means it can't move ( and think bowels and gut like a raw sausage)unless it has to something to break it down, and protein iis the thing in our diets that stops us feeling hungry, yet takes the longest to break down.. if you have 'too much' before you add something else to break it up, you arre going to get bloated.

I like to run as lean as possible myself where ever practical and possible and so instead of eating additional carbs to break it down ( adding bulk btw), I like to assist the protein break down into the amino of L-arginine ( the precursor for natural production of HGRH) by using red wine and a simple carb ( like a fruit stick that acts as a syrup ) and fruit and a reeeally tiny serve of grains ( 3/4 dry piece of wholemeal or rice crackers once to 1 1/2 x a day) or something ( with a literal handful of laxatives twice a day ish) to flush it out ( otherwise commonly known as catabolising) to gain as immediate access to the L-Arginine as I can get and flush the rest out of my body asap leaving me more comfortable to workout more and to higher ..depth of contraction(??) and so on without having to be bogged down or slowed up by the actual bulk of anything in my digestive tracts that isn't being used.  Hence how I came to manage 11 and 12 hr daily workouts and feed it well and maintain it for yrs for at leeast 5-6 mth stints without a days break and so end up in world class condition.. and was still strong enough and fit enough at 45 ish kgs ( 169cm) to hold my own against world class heavy weights. .. so much so that I made a date with the fml hvy weight kungfu champion and played with the bigger men at the gyms of male world title fame.

The only problem with doing thaat though is that you get really nitricly toxic really quickly , nitrogen being a bi-product of protein metabolism , so it becomes imprtant to allso drink something carbonated ( for which I usually use soda water ), which also helps to flush the excess bulk from food waste via a whole other chemical grit lifting wash.

The other issue with that is , just like with steroids, if you don't do a shit load of water or fluid at some stage throughout mOst days as priority, then you put your kidneys and liver and so on in long term danger of shutting down from too high demand.

Of course we know that we can't build muscle without protein and we can't hypertrophy or get the muscle to grow and expand ( because as the buliding blocks of tissue the complex carbohydrate causes the tissue to be more in quantity ..otherwise known as cholesterol .. meaning more tissue to get fluids and blood to travel through per heart pump - mind fluids  ) and get the protein to pack the spaces in between beacuse iiit's main association is with blood and fluids , not with tissue.  

Fat 's main contribution in the equation , besides in women who need it for estrogen production for a period and so forth, thereafter is for cell communication... something for the cell betweeen cell walls to tell the cell next to it what it's doing . but then .. there 's other math that says that thaat can be acheived with something like a kelp or a high mineral salt potassium intake where the "communication" gets through by a whole other friction. 

This is one of my babies in elite performance info, and not something most people will already know, and while it is definately a  slightly more contraversial approach, I swear by it.


p.s. i once had chats with a guy who was a trainer and pro-footballer in the U.S. , who was experiementing  on ph.d. research btw ( @) ..like the math doesn't speak for itself) , with shakes vs food for bf and performance about protein. of course the minute he gave up his shakes, ..or maybe cummulatively up to 4 weeks after, he slowed down on how much exercise he could comfortablely do, his workouts became less and what he could get out of them suffered aand his bf skyrocketted to where he decided to abort the whole project.
Remember, protein from othher sources is nOt 100% protein and allll that other stuff that it contains, has a caloric aand bulk value all of it's own and is a seperate enitity to the amino or amoniOs that's trying to be unlocked from the protein.


hope that helps you out..

Blooming tianshi Lotus.


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## slip (Apr 21, 2007)

I love it.  A doctor, who should have a good understanding of the digestive system, saying that organic matter will pass through it without being absorbed for whatever reason.

Awesome.


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## microtel (Apr 22, 2007)

Thanks for one helluva response to my question. I often hear bias on both sides of the protein "powder" question but I rarely see this much detail. Great stuff, thanks! This forum is a real blessing.

If progressive weight training and clean nutrition is the formula for muscle building, and that combined with eating 1.5 grams of protein per pound of body weight, and to achieve that much protein intake daily for 12-24 weeks during cycles, then that intake is impossible without protein powders.   

I could trust the skinny or fat doctor in a white lab coat or I could trust the BodyBuilder with actual field experience. 

On the other hand, Arnold claims that the body can only effectively utilize 100 grams of protein a day anyway. And he certainly has field experience. What the hell. I'm not convinced anyone REALLY knows. 

peace


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## rmcfar (Apr 22, 2007)

microtel said:


> . What the hell. I'm not convinced anyone REALLY knows.
> 
> peace



thats more then likely the answer. the human body is extremely complex and we really only know so much about it. 

personally, im going to trust the guy in the white coat. reason being, if you can find one thats involved in the fitness industry, they have the "in field" experience of X number of people, as apposed to just themselves. i am likely biased though because soon enough i will be the "guy in the white coat"


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## Nigeepoo (Apr 22, 2007)

DiGiTaL said:


> Yes Sir.
> I totally forgot that if too much protein is consumed it is then urinated. Good to know, Thanks for the info.


That's not what I said. Only the nitrogen bit is urinated. The carbon bit (the bit with the calories) follows the glucose pathway. About 53% of an AA can follow the glucose pathway if not used for protein synthesis.


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## Plateau_Max (Apr 22, 2007)

There is a number of blanket things I try to get across to people that apply here.  The first one is the synergistic characteristic of natural food.

Natural food is the best way for the body to get nutrients not only because they're going to lack the man-made chemicals introduced in fabricated supplements, but because the makeup of the food, how much of what type of nutrients it has in it, will be the perfect ratio thus maximize the efficiency of it's digestion.  For instance eating an orange and getting vitamin C, will be much more readibly digested and passed through the body than consuming an equivelant vitamin C supplement in pill form.
        So yes protein does need certain amounts of other nutrients to bond to such as a carbohydrate, which is why you won't get nearly the effectiveness from your protein say you're consuming egg protein with water (egg protein's calories are almost 99% protein cals), as opposed to if you were eating chicken.

The second is the trial and error path to success for everyone's dietary needs.  Everyone's bodies are so much different than each others that no one's going to be able to say "this works for me so it's going to work for you" your age, weight, lineage, where you live, allergies... all come in to affect how well you will react to certain things in your diet.

Protein powders will provide good digestible protein for your body to use but your body will thank you if you try to get a lot of your main protein consumption from natural sources like chicken, fish, soy, etc.

Oh and let's not forget that there are several studies done which conclude the positive useful effects of using whey protein powder supps.  Here's a good one Whey Protein for Fat Loss


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## Arnold (Apr 22, 2007)

The Whey To Weight Loss!


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## Blooming Lotus (Apr 22, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> There is a number of blanket things I try to get across to people that apply here.  The first one is the synergistic characteristic of natural food.
> 
> Natural food is the best way for the body to get nutrients not only because they're going to lack the man-made chemicals introduced in fabricated supplements, but because the makeup of the food, how much of what type of nutrients it has in it, will be the perfect ratio thus maximize the efficiency of it's digestion.  For instance eating an orange and getting vitamin C, will be much more readibly digested and passed through the body than consuming an equivelant vitamin C supplement in pill form.
> So yes protein does need certain amounts of other nutrients to bond to such as a carbohydrate, which is why you won't get nearly the effectiveness from your protein say you're consuming egg protein with water (egg protein's calories are almost 99% protein cals), as opposed to if you were eating chicken.
> ...




I have to apologise. ... because I think what you just said here... is total b.s. and you quite clearly don't understand the performance output in the difference.
It's nOt just about weight loss!!... it's about better health and function and asthetic appeal alllround!. 

 If I haave to use Onnnly whole food sources to get adequatly nourished to feeeed my workout... then I 'm not going to shIt done!.. becauuse it's all just there ( with everything ellse about it) sitting in my gutt   :/...
becaause whole foods have so much excess b.s. that we cant use and don't need and aren't looking for in terms of " am only eating for fuel and nothing else neccesssary thank you " !:/ .... f*ck offf I can't get better vit c intake by condensed sources btw!!. i stake my health aaand professional cred on it as a smoker ( and get equally f*cked being on my ass about it btw)on that verrry thing!!! ( becauuse smoking inhibits or crowds  oxygen suppply and iron which carrrries oxygen and needs vit c to lift and move it and get to absorb.. while for each puff it heats your kidneys and lifts shit off your ..bits that need shit lifted off... remembering that protein ( as in the shit in your bloood collecting your toxic poisons in the form of lymphocytes and lymphnodes) seperates in hot temps ( asss your body miight produce during working times) and congeals during cold times ( like ... relax time thereafter)..
who tf can affford to listen to " plays it safe at so-so dont think any further " advice???!!!

...I hate that shit!.. 

or maybe not ... but I doooo know that people build lives and logic onnn that crap!!

really... lovvvvve supplements. ( !!!!!!!!! ... and god bless america .!)

If someone could produce a series or even One siingle case study example of where someone has achieved world class achievement in regard to exercise / specific sport or bb competition withouuut a supplement.. then i 'm going to have words to god.. aaand the gods and godesses of science !..and I'm not even a christian!!

Honestly . my dad aside at national pre-worlds but for my muum telling him there would bee no worlds if he wanted to stay with her ..does anyone know of anyone who's got that far without them???

Any takers welcome!   

p.s. thx to Prince for the article. ...
I like it . :/..

P.p.s. don't want to sound like a pompous idiot so .. that's what I said.

Blooming tianshi Lotus.


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## BringDaBlitz94 (Apr 23, 2007)

well i'm only 14 (almost 15) and started working out last november. i mean this is just to get into shape, not to become a body builder. i dont use any pills or steroids or stuff like tht but i was wondering if it was ok to use whey protien in a shake mayb once or twice a day? i mean i'm only 14 and dont wanna damage my body.


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## tucker01 (Apr 23, 2007)

tis fine.


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## Blooming Lotus (Apr 23, 2007)

BringDaBlitz94 said:


> well i'm only 14 (almost 15) and started working out last november. i mean this is just to get into shape, not to become a body builder. i dont use any pills or steroids or stuff like tht but i was wondering if it was ok to use whey protien in a shake mayb once or twice a day? i mean i'm only 14 and dont wanna damage my body.




okay. well in that case I guess I was a little frank anyway .

Personally i think it's an awesome choice to do that at your age.
My cousin started about your age and lifted big and he 's about 25 now and could BB himself!.
 If you're worried about potentially damaging your body though I just suggest that you always make sure you protect your liver and kidneys and heart with a good water intake ( as daily as possible) and always try to bring in something carbonated to drink.. like soda water which will not only stop you from getting nitrogen toxic and keep your blood clean but because of the potassium in soda waters, and what too heavy  protein intake can do to slow down your blood pressure ( probably from gooping up your blood if you don't break it down and flush properly) will regulate your kidney function ( water and heat control centre) and keep your heart pumping strongly enough to get that blood through your body...providing you keep rethinning it out with 
things that 'll break down the proteiny globs ( lymphocytes that collect together to make lymphnodes ( clusters of toxins that are better in the one lump or groups of to flush than all throughout your body mucking with the general quality of your blood ) and yes they are a gooood thing and yes everyone has them .

Oh and I don't know if I'd recommend the wine to you to do that but lots of fruit and veg and things like lemon juice and watermelon and alternating the temperature of your fluids as regular thing should help you out too.

2 full size serves is pretty enthusiastic for a begginner at your age..
I have a 14 yr old baby myself and if it were her I think I'd probably get her to try 2 - 3 x half serves max and adjust from there. .. aand if she wanted to be that serious probably do a multi vitamin for the stuff she was going to omit as she cleaned up and adapted her diet around that and instead of eating so many whole foods to need to get them. .. but we're kind of over acheivers like that  .

Some of the men here might advise you different but I 'd like to see you adjust the resst of what your eating around that.
Good luck with it.

Blooming Lotus.


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## microtel (Apr 23, 2007)

In keeping with the idea of using supplements in general, this link from a guy who doesn't financially benefit from supplement companies but understands their value; apparently the FDA is seeking to heavily regulate even the most mild supplements through a docs prescription...anyone heard this?


Jon Benson.com :: FDA Threatens Your Freedom


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## Blooming Lotus (Apr 23, 2007)

no. but do you know I had to restructure my whole " career plan" ( aand at 29-30 now 32) to factor in enough money to live off and pump supplements and have enough time toooo actuallly train as much as I want way into my future without having to go back and work ( thanks to a guy who thought he might want to be a part of it and know what he was looking at) and am stiiilll waiting for results on it!..

Lifestyle is huuuge bitch when it comes to training and looking after yourself... for mee it's only 6- 7-10 yrs and it's hopefully done if I do it right, but getting in hrs and sleep and energy and enough of the ideeeal nourishment through the day to be able to pull somthing high lvl high class off about it is a pretty serious lifestyling mission!! very awesome point!!.. If I could write a paper to tell people how nOt to screw there life and health up and end up resenting ones partner,..  ... it would probably say something about that very thing!  .

cool observation. you can't saaay that to too many ppl without them wanting your tender bits hung out, ..being that most ppl have no intennntion of caring for themselves that well orr thinking that far ahead about things like that,..but be happy you got the jump on it.

Oi loike it alot .

Blooming tianshi lotus.


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