# Which is a better indication of raw strength? A big bench or big deadlift?



## juggernaut2005 (Jun 27, 2007)

Which?


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## Double D (Jun 27, 2007)

A big squat!


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## Witchblade (Jun 27, 2007)

Deadlift, then squat, then bench.


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## juggernaut2005 (Jun 27, 2007)

Witchblade said:


> Deadlift, then squat, then bench.



Thats what I thought.. Just double checking


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## DOMS (Jun 27, 2007)

Double D said:


> A big squat!



I'll second this.


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## P-funk (Jun 27, 2007)

which is better, an apple or a pear?


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## StanUk (Jun 27, 2007)

P-funk said:


> which is better, an apple or a pear?



Definatly an apple.


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## Witchblade (Jun 27, 2007)

P-funk said:


> which is better, an apple or a pear?


The deadlift uses more muscles so it's a better indicator of total body strength, no?


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## KelJu (Jun 27, 2007)

Witchblade said:


> The deadlift uses more muscles so it's a better indicator of total body strength, no?



I think a guy that can squat 400lbs is just as impressive as a guy that can deadlift 400lbs. 

I personally think squats are more important, but that is strictly opinion.

In all actuality, deadlifts and squats are probablly equal indicators of total strength.


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## CowPimp (Jun 27, 2007)

I would say a deadlift, but I see P's point, they test the strength of totally different muscle groups using completely different motor programs.


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## P-funk (Jun 27, 2007)

CowPimp said:


> I would say a deadlift, but I see P's point, they test the strength of totally different muscle groups using completely different motor programs.



yea, not only that....but also, the exercise that is the best indicator of strength is going to be dependant on the person....different levers and biomechanics.  Some may just be buit to squat (or deadlift).  So, is their overal strength better than someone who has poor levers?  Maybe that individual is better in a different exercise, etc.

There is to much going on to say "which is a better indicator of strength."


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## Gazhole (Jun 27, 2007)

Logically, a big Deadlift only gives you an indication of how strong somebody is...at Deadlifting.

You could have a great Deadlift and a sucky Bench, or a great Bench and a sucky Deadlift. Who is stronger? Its not answerable.

Personally though, i agree that Deadlift is a much harder movement than bench, but even if somebody doesnt Deadlift you cant deny they are strong as hell if they can bench 500lbs or something.

Everything is relative.

DEADLIFTS FTW.


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## StanUk (Jun 27, 2007)

Were talking about RAW strength here though, so I would have to go with deadlift. A good squat requires a lot more technique/flexibility/balance than a deadlift. A deadlift is just lifting a dead weight off the floor, and although it requires good form to prevent yourself from injuries it is pretty much the easiest compound lift someone can do.


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## DOMS (Jun 27, 2007)

CowPimp said:


> I would say a deadlift, but I see P's point, they test the strength of totally different muscle groups using completely different motor programs.



I just think it takes more moxy to put the weight on your back instead of just picking it up off the floor.

Yeah, I've wandered into the realm of opinion...


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## juggernaut2005 (Jun 27, 2007)

P-funk said:


> which is better, an apple or a pear?



I know what you're saying that these are two diff exercises that utilize two different muscles etc; but surely one of them has to be a better indication of overall raw strength?


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## P-funk (Jun 27, 2007)

juggernaut2005 said:


> I know what you're saying that these are two diff exercises that utilize two different muscles etc; but surely one of them has to be a better indication of overall raw strength?



well then, how the heck can you compare the bench press to anything?  It is a totally supported lift.  You lie on a bench and press.


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## DOMS (Jun 27, 2007)

P-funk said:


> well then, how the heck can you compare the bench press to anything?  It is a totally supported lift.  You lie on a bench and press.




Exactly.  I don't think the Bench holds a candle to Deads or Squats.


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## juggernaut2005 (Jun 27, 2007)

P-funk said:


> well then, how the heck can you compare the bench press to anything?  It is a totally supported lift.  You lie on a bench and press.



OK, if you walk into a gym and see 3 guys lifting 500lbs raw, one is benching the forementioned weight, the other is squating and the last is deadlifting.. Why would you say 'damn he is strong' to?


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## P-funk (Jun 27, 2007)

juggernaut2005 said:


> OK, if you walk into a gym and see 3 guys lifting 500lbs raw, one is benching the forementioned weight, the other is squating and the last is deadlifting.. Why would you say 'damn he is strong' to?



walk into any gym and you will find that 90% of the guys can bench more than they squat or deadlift....some can even bench in the 300s yet struggle with the mid 200s in the squat.

Why would I automactically guess that the person with the big bench press has the greatest overal strength?


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## juggernaut2005 (Jun 27, 2007)

P-funk said:


> walk into any gym and you will find that 90% of the guys can bench more than they squat or deadlift....some can even bench in the 300s yet struggle with the mid 200s in the squat.
> 
> Why would I automactically guess that the person with the big bench press has the greatest overal strength?



That wasn't my question and I never said you should automatically assume?


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## P-funk (Jun 27, 2007)

juggernaut2005 said:


> That wasn't my question and I never said you should automatically assume?



Okay, then I would say:

"Damn, he is a strong presser."


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## juggernaut2005 (Jun 27, 2007)

P-funk said:


> Okay, then I would say:
> 
> "Damn, he is a strong presser."



Aha.. So you think the bench presser is the stronger of the 3??  Thats all I was asking, thanks P-funk!


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## P-funk (Jun 27, 2007)

I said he was a strong presser.  I didn't say that I thought he was the strongest overal....or what I would call "cock strong"

I don't know where you are going with this.


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## shiznit2169 (Jun 27, 2007)

juggernaut2005 said:


> That wasn't my question and I never said you should automatically assume?



Look at it this way

Squat - Loading the bar on your back and squatting ATG and back up
Deadlift - Pulling raw from the floor with your hands only
Bench - Lying on a bench (which is supporting you) and pressing the bar

If i were to choose, i'd have to go with squats. With the bench and deadlift, people are prone to cheat such as arching their back or using sloppy form to complete the lift. Squats is basically the only true form of testing your overall strength without using gear of course but that is not to take anything away from someone who does bench/deadlift a lot of weight cus it's still impressive.

I'm just saying if i were to walk into a gym, i'd be more impressed with someone squatting 400 lbs ATG with flawless form as opposed to someone benching 450-500 lbs.


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## StanUk (Jun 27, 2007)

shiznit2169 said:


> Look at it this way
> 
> Squat - Loading the bar on your back and squatting ATG and back up
> Deadlift - Pulling raw from the floor with your hands only
> ...



Were talking RAW strength though, you've even said in your deadlift description that your pulling "RAW" from the floor.


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## shiznit2169 (Jun 27, 2007)

StanUk said:


> Were talking RAW strength though, you've even said in your deadlift description that your pulling "RAW" from the floor.



I am talking about raw strength for every lift. I never mentioned any gear in my post. I am saying most people have the tendency to cheat such as use momentum or arch their back in the deadlift/bench whereas you can't really cheat doing squats assuming you go ATG.


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## StanUk (Jun 27, 2007)

I guess it all depends on how you define "raw".


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## juggernaut2005 (Jun 27, 2007)

shiznit2169 said:


> Look at it this way
> 
> Squat - Loading the bar on your back and squatting ATG and back up
> Deadlift - Pulling raw from the floor with your hands only
> ...



Thank you for your input!!  But I would say thought that sloppy form also exists in squats


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## Witchblade (Jun 27, 2007)

I look at it this way. 'An indication of raw strength' means you should be able to guess a person's overall strength by the number they lift on that lift alone. A big bench obviously doesn't mean much, because a lot of people neglect their legs.
The squat means a lot more, but maybe they lack flexibility so they could actually move a lot more weight if they were more flexible. Also, you can't tell how deep they're going. Lastly, you don't know much about their back strength or their grip strength.
Ergo, deadlifts are king. Highest force output, most muscles involved, no way to cheat on ROM.

Anyway, the point really is moot.


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## AKIRA (Jun 27, 2007)

StanUk said:


> Definatly an apple.



Oh of course.  Reminds me of a fucking great tight ass.  I saw the best body in my gym today...where the fuck did she come from.  

Oh...deadlift.


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## DOMS (Jun 27, 2007)

StanUk said:


> I guess it all depends on how you define "raw".



I don't think that your idea of raw exists in the gym.  In the gym, all of the exercises have nice, clean, points of grip.  They have all of technical guidlines that help to move the weight.

I think that the raw your talking about exists in the strong man competitions.  Stuff like towing a car with your bare hands or lifting boulders.  That's raw.  No nice, easy to hold, handle. No carefully controlled techniques to get the job done.  You just wrap your hands on to some odd item and move it.

Still, having said all that, Squats rule.


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## DOMS (Jun 27, 2007)

Witchblade said:


> I look at it this way. 'An indication of raw strength' means you should be able to guess a person's overall strength by the number they lift on that lift alone. A big bench obviously doesn't mean much, because a lot of people neglect their legs.
> The squat means a lot more, but maybe they lack flexibility so they could actually move a lot more weight if they were more flexible. Also, you can't tell how deep they're going. Lastly, you don't know much about their back strength or their grip strength.
> Ergo, deadlifts are king. Highest force output, most muscles involved, no way to cheat on ROM.



But you also need to consider that, with the Squat, you actually have the weight you're moving _right on your back!_



Witchblade said:


> Anyway, the point really is moot.



No, dammit!  We're going to argue about it, dammit!!!


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## juggernaut2005 (Jun 27, 2007)

DOMS said:


> But you also need to consider that, with the Squat, you actually have the weight you're moving _right on your back!_
> 
> 
> 
> No, dammit!  We're going to argue about it, dammit!!!



YEAH!!! I say Deadlifts thought bud not squats


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## PreMier (Jun 27, 2007)

Watch WSM.. they do all kinds of different things/exercises to determine who is strongest/most powerful


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## StanUk (Jun 27, 2007)

DOMS said:


> I don't think that your idea of raw exists in the gym.  In the gym, all of the exercises have nice, clean, points of grip.  They have all of technical guidlines that help to move the weight.
> 
> I think that the raw your talking about exists in the strong man competitions.  Stuff like towing a car with your bare hands or lifting boulders.  That's raw.  No nice, easy to hold, handle. No carefully controlled techniques to get the job done.  You just wrap your hands on to some odd item and move it.
> 
> Still, having said all that, Squats rule.



Yeh thats pretty much what i would consider "raw"


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## Bakerboy (Jun 27, 2007)

I say curls.  jk

I say clean and press.


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## P-funk (Jun 27, 2007)

PreMier said:


> Watch WSM.. they do all kinds of different things/exercises to determine who is strongest/most powerful



yea, and none of which are the bench press.

The overhead press is a heck of a lift.


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## Triple Threat (Jun 27, 2007)

Bakerboy said:


> I say curls.



Must be true.  Just about everyone in the gym does curls.


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## Mista (Jun 27, 2007)

Triple Threat said:


> Must be true.  Just about everyone in the gym does curls.



Were talking wrist curls right?


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## KelJu (Jun 27, 2007)

P-funk said:


> yea, and none of which are the bench press.



I think dips could easily be as important as bench press as a show of strength. Dips are the squat of the upper body.


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## P-funk (Jun 27, 2007)

KelJu said:


> I think dips could easily be as important as bench press as a show of strength. Dips are the squat of the upper body.



overhead press.  it is and was the measure of pressing strength before anyone ever did bench press.  it is a true lift which challanges balance, core strength and overall pressing strength.


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## Uthinkso (Jun 27, 2007)

I have to agree with P here, and I think I'm personally a great example that bench is a poor indicator. In fact I think you need to look at a combination of excercises instead of one end all be all movement.

I bench 185lb, squat 275, deadlift 365lb. I find I have more strength in pulling movements, but not movements overhead or away from my body. I agree that the dead incorporates more muscles than the bench, as does the squat but I'd be hard pressed to say that any one movement can be used to define overall strength.


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## KelJu (Jun 27, 2007)

P-funk said:


> overhead press.  it is and was the measure of pressing strength before anyone ever did bench press.  it is a true lift which challanges balance, core strength and overall pressing strength.



That is true. I do love the overhead press. One of my goals is to press my bodyweight. I'm really close now, maybe I will get it within the month.


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## Hoglander (Jun 27, 2007)

When I think of raw strength I think of the those heavy big balls they lift up in the Strongest Man competition.  I don't think of traditional weights. You can train for any lift but when I think of raw out of the gym power... really big balls comes to mind(have fun with that). For real though.. guys that trains in the gym but can use it in real life has my vote. Are you going to bench a car off your friend's leg?


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## KentDog (Jun 27, 2007)

shiznit2169 said:


> Squat - Loading the bar on your back and squatting ATG and back up
> Deadlift - Pulling raw from the floor *with your hands only*
> Bench - Lying on a bench (which is supporting you) and pressing the bar


The deadlift is far less about pulling with your hands as opposed to pushing with your legs.


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## juggernaut2005 (Jun 27, 2007)

KentDog said:


> The deadlift is far less about pulling with your hands as opposed to pushing with your legs.



I agree!


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## Todd Bostrom (Jun 28, 2007)

*Thats easy.....*

_*Deadlift*_


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## MCx2 (Jun 28, 2007)

A belly to belly suplex.


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## Gazhole (Jun 28, 2007)

Mista said:


> Were talking wrist curls right?



_Seated_ wrist curls.


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## Uthinkso (Jun 28, 2007)

ReproMan said:


> A belly to belly suplex.



Well a power bomb uses a vertical lift, so maybe thats better


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## Double D (Jun 28, 2007)

Heres mt thought on it:

Most people can dead around 400lbs around here, but how many guys are squatting more than that? Not many at all! But thats just my take, both are impressive, but to load 400+ on your shoulders and squat down and be able to sustain all that weight on your shoulders is more impressive to me than simply picking a weight off the ground.


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## PreMier (Jun 28, 2007)

KentDog said:


> The deadlift is far less about pulling with your hands as opposed to pushing with your legs.



I think he meant without wrist straps


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## AKIRA (Jun 28, 2007)

Double D said:


> Heres mt thought on it:
> 
> Most people can dead around 400lbs around here, but how many guys are squatting more than that? Not many at all! But thats just my take, both are impressive, but to load 400+ on your shoulders and squat down and be able to sustain all that weight on your shoulders is more impressive to me than simply picking a weight off the ground.



Thats true.

However, dont cut out deadlifts on technicalities either, especially Conventionals.  

Your grip might make the lift impossible, so that may have to be adjusted.
Overextension of the spine (thats what I did)
How about when the bar goes passed the knees?  Thats a bit difficult for some people.
Bloody shins?
Prevention of bouncing the weight off the floor (though thats easy to avoid)


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## Mags (Jun 29, 2007)

I think the deadlift is the most impressive. When you take the bar to the floor, you know it's on! 

Bench and Squat (although both very impressive if heavy) require lifting the bar off a rack etc (I know this doesn't make it an easier and is just common sense), but there's just something exhilirating about defeating gravity from the start - prizing up that heavy weight from the very ground itself. This is why the deadlift is the most basic and true of lifts.


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