# No More PCT



## Tough Old Man (Jul 31, 2006)

*I will no longer run PCT.* I think it's way overrated. Back in the 70's and 80's we didn't have all these meds and we didn't run PCT. It never effected our gains or recovery. We just kept our calorie intake up. My last 2 cycles I didn't run PCT either and have done just fine. 

So I will save my money and use it on something that I feel is more important, *like good food and supplements*. 


Tough


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## kicka19 (Jul 31, 2006)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> *I will no longer run PCT.* I think it's way overrated. Back in the 70's and 80's we didn't have all these meds and we didn't run PCT. It never effected our gains or recovery. We just kept our calorie intake up. My last 2 cycles I didn't run PCT either and have done just fine.
> 
> So I will save my money and use it on something that I feel is more important, *like good food and supplements*.
> 
> ...


let the flaming begin


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## the nut (Jul 31, 2006)

No loss of libido?


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## largepkg (Jul 31, 2006)

TOM, this is an interesting thread you've started here. I recently put the needle down for a good while. I'm currently in week 6 without supplemental injections of hormones. I just gave up the whole get bigger, feel like superman deal but that's besides the point.

The point of this is I haven't run any form of PCT because I could give a shit if I lose anything or feel like crap. I'm currently working out relatively light due to injury but I've noticed no change in libido or significant muscle loss. 

I'm sure the science backs up PCT I just thought this was interesting.


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## GFR (Jul 31, 2006)

Good post Tough.....I think PCT is BS for short cycles. I never ran it when doing 6-8 week cycles and had *0* libido or strength loss problems. Pluss PCT is also hard on the liver so why risk it.


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## GFR (Jul 31, 2006)

As of my last 2 cycles I only ran 20-40mg Nolva for 3 weeks post cycle and kept 100% of my gains 8 weeks out. The only thing that fucked with my libido was my high deca cycle....ran it 2 weeks past the test...ouch.


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## skaterdude (Jul 31, 2006)

But you should always keep novla on hand just in case of gyno.


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## GFR (Jul 31, 2006)

skaterdude said:
			
		

> But you should always keep novla on hand just in case of gyno.


Yes, that or arimidex or Provirion.


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## Tough Old Man (Jul 31, 2006)

skaterdude said:
			
		

> But you should always keep novla on hand just in case of gyno.


they didn't have nova back in the 70's and early 80's. so now what. 

Note: I don't have gyno problems


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## Pirate! (Jul 31, 2006)

Doing something because that is the way things used to be done is the worst reason to do anything. Are you going to trade your car in for a horse? To each is own. I do agree that it is over-rated, but we-used-to-do-it-that-way logic is worthless. Maybe we shouldn't use anti-biotics anymore. That would be old school.


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## GFR (Jul 31, 2006)

Pirate! said:
			
		

> Doing something because that is the way things used to be done is the worst reason to do anything. Are you going to trade your car in for a horse? To each is own. I do agree that it is over-rated, but we-used-to-do-it-that-way logic is worthless. Maybe we shouldn't use anti-biotics anymore. That would be old school.


 Post some links that show medical research that proves Nolvadex and/or Clomid help jump start natural test production significantly after a steroid cycle .


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## Pirate! (Jul 31, 2006)

No. If I made that arguement, I would. But I didn't, so no.


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## GFR (Jul 31, 2006)

Pirate! said:
			
		

> No. If I made that arguement, I would. But I didn't, so no.


Case closed.


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## the nut (Jul 31, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Post some links that show medical research that proves Nolvadex and/or Clomid help jump start natural test production significantly after a steroid cycle .



Hold on, so HCG, HMG, clomid, etc. don't jump start natural test production significantly after a cycle?


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## GFR (Jul 31, 2006)

the nut said:
			
		

> Hold on, so HCG, HMG, clomid, etc. don't jump start natural test production significantly after a cycle?


HCG...no
Nolva or Clomid...I doubt it
Still it is good to do a short 3 week PCT starting the day you end your cycle..Just 40mg Nol ED.


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## Pirate! (Aug 1, 2006)

HCG use during the cycle clearly helps many to recover their natural testosterone production after the cycle. If you need a bunch of links google it yourself. You already know this, though.


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## Tough Old Man (Aug 1, 2006)

Pirate! said:
			
		

> Doing something because that is the way things used to be done is the worst reason to do anything. Are you going to trade your car in for a horse? To each is own. I do agree that it is over-rated, but we-used-to-do-it-that-way logic is worthless. Maybe we shouldn't use anti-biotics anymore. That would be old school.


You rmissing the point. I have run PCT and it didn't do anymore for me then not running it. Now if I can cycle for 7 years back in the 70's and 80's w/out PCT and now how a choice but it doesn't change me at all, then what's the point in running it. 

Sometimes history is good and maybe we need to practice more of it. I'll go back to the 70's for gasoline prices. Do you see anything wrong with gas being under .50 cents a gal. See for everyone thing you can pull up that is happening now, I can pull up something good that happened years ago. 

But that's OK Mr. Pirate, spend your money on PCT which doesn't help a thing.


Tell you something else that I'm starting to think is a waste of money and this extends from years ago also. Whey. I was a lot bigger in the 70's and 80's then I am now and we didn't have whey. 

*I actually think all this shit in the last 10-15 years has come up for everyone to use this and that as that's what keeps people in business.* 

Drink this, drink that and you'll get bigger. Take this and take that and you'll recover and keep all your gains. Bullshit


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## ZECH (Aug 1, 2006)

One thing you are misssing Tom is that you were 25 yrs younger then and it was easier to gain muscle. It gets harder to get bigger when you get old.


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## icanrace (Aug 1, 2006)

interesting thread


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## Tough Old Man (Aug 1, 2006)

dg806 said:
			
		

> One thing you are misssing Tom is that you were 25 yrs younger then and it was easier to gain muscle. It gets harder to get bigger when you get old.


The truth be told


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## Tough Old Man (Aug 1, 2006)

I found this on another site today

HUTCH  vbmenu_register("postmenu_189254", true);     
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 562 

I have never done a PCT...I dont lose anymore than a person who spends 300 bucks on a PCT cycle...I have never had any sides when coming off like sexual or anything...I do like to taper off​ 
IBBAdmin  vbmenu_register("postmenu_189259", true);     
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 28 

Last time I used PCT was 1989.... I havent since and been fine ...​ 
DOGMA  vbmenu_register("postmenu_189264", true);     
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 340 

I do not use PCT in any form as a plan for recovery. I have found at 42 that a little Proviron helps in the Johnson dept. but overall I recover just as fast as anyone Ive known who uses the "net protocal". I feel it is the biggest net myth out there.​ 
*LATS*  vbmenu_register("postmenu_189297", true);     
Moderator/NPC Judge

Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: MIDWEST
Posts: 1,368 

my buddy, who i have brought up in "storytime with lats", dave out in cali is like this.. he roomed with haney and gaspari.. knows his shit.. he does no pct.. here is what he will do.. the last 4 weeks, he reduces the test down to 200 mgs a week.. then the last week he does one shot of 100 mgs.. trains the same in regards to volume and changes nothing really.. says that he might experience a slight drop in sex drive but, it does not last long.. he feels that pct is negative to the recovery of your own axis and likes to taper.. i personally did pct.. i tried to cover my bases.. but, some obviously dont need it.
i know one top npc competitor and he does hcg during the cycle.. nothing after and also tapers.. i have seen while off and he looks great and says he suffers no sides.. but, at my age.. i just prefer to do hrt.. so when i stop i just keep 200 mgs a week.. no need for me .. ​


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## Trouble (Aug 1, 2006)

OK, here is my little theory on the real action of PCT (and AAS as well, why so many find good gains are maintained using PCT).

Okey dokey. So, we got a high stess lifestyle, one that, along with not so clean diet (including deliberate insulin and glutamine jacking by supplements), leads to a state of high action for glutamate and acetylcholine receptors (via use of stims, lifestyle, nightowl sleep habits).  Cortisol increases, and growth hormone decreases (they interact directly, eh, from nuclear receptor crosstalk).

Now, you run up against a hormone brickwall, and you look at gear as a way out.  Anabolics act in two-fold benefit: ramps up GH and decreases the binding of cortisol at GR (glucocorticoid receptor).  

Why do your run AIs?  Block aromatase action.  Why?  Beyond estrogen binding to and blocking AR (androgen receptor), its also elevating GR binding - via a regulator agent called GRIP-1 (GR interacting protein-1).  So as estrogen levels rise, so does the effect of GR activity - essentially, it functions as a cortisol augmentor - yep, even more stress hormone effect than you would otherwise get.

Arimidex, for instance, has been shown to block both cortisol and estrogen activation of GR and mineralcorticoids as well (so blood volume/pressure and ion loss effects out of kidney tubule), so both GR and MR aren't adversely effected by excess estrogen.

This is pretty fucking important if you want to maintain mass after a cycle...
Unless you have very low aromatase action.

I think repeated use of ER blockers/CYP 3A4 suppresive agents like Novla and Arimidex are down regulating activity or desensitizing binding action at ER, just as repeated cycles of AAS increase AR sensitivity, by causing a mutation in the transcription - we call this a gene polymorphism.

So why would TOM want to talk these compounds?  Because he has age-elevated cortisol release and age-deteriorated GH production.

Little different mentality than the standard reasons for using PCT. Maybe well worthwhile considering.


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## The big guy (Aug 2, 2006)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> *I will no longer run PCT.* I think it's way overrated. Back in the 70's and 80's we didn't have all these meds and we didn't run PCT. It never effected our gains or recovery. We just kept our calorie intake up. My last 2 cycles I didn't run PCT either and have done just fine.
> 
> So I will save my money and use it on something that I feel is more important, *like good food and supplements*.
> 
> ...


I don't always run a PCT, and I really don't notice that big of a difference when I don't, I always hold my gains and I think my libido actually gets worse from PCT..But I think that I never had Gyno issues or any kinds sides while cycling which I think makes a difference and my age now 43..Some good meals, plenty of protien in them and some protien shakes and your fine, I don't even see the hype in Creatine, Glutamine and BCAA's...I used to cycle all threw the 80's and most of the 90's and never used PCT..


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## durk (Aug 2, 2006)

its true some people dont need pct I know some very well educated people that dont use pct either its just a personal preferance


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## GFR (Aug 2, 2006)

A short PCT cycle is fine, but the 5-6 weerk post cycle begining 10-14 days after the last shot are BS IMO. After a test E cycle It is good to run PCT 3 weeks from day  one post cycle.....more than that is worthless. If you run a 15+ week cycle then I have no idea since I would never run such a stupid cycle.


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## GFR (Aug 2, 2006)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> *I will no longer run PCT.* I think it's way overrated. Back in the 70's and 80's we didn't have all these meds and we didn't run PCT. It never effected our gains or recovery. We just kept our calorie intake up. My last 2 cycles I didn't run PCT either and have done just fine.
> 
> So I will save my money and use it on something that I feel is more important, *like good food and supplements*.
> 
> ...


Your Best thread this year!!! I agree 99%


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## The big guy (Aug 2, 2006)

Back in the 80's maybe you do 2500mgs of HCG a week for 2 weeks and that was if you can get it, and it was to keep your nuts from turning into raisins..


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## Tough Old Man (Aug 2, 2006)

It looking like people who choose to not do PCT are ramping down there doses of gear to come off. Maybe there is where the ramping initially came from. I don't remember 20 some years ago whether the doctor who care I was under for gear had us ramp down or not. I know we didn't ramp up.


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## Tough Old Man (Aug 2, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Your Best thread this year!!! I agree 99%


Thanks FR


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## MCx2 (Aug 2, 2006)

dg806 said:
			
		

> One thing you are misssing Tom is that you were 25 yrs younger then and it was easier to gain muscle. It gets harder to get bigger when you get old.





			
				Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> The truth be told



Hurts doesn't it? I felt the same way when they told me to get out of the funball pit at Chuckee Cheese last week.


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## BigPapaPump68 (Aug 2, 2006)

FatCatMC said:
			
		

> Hurts doesn't it? I felt the same way when they told me to get out of the funball pit at Chuckee Cheese last week.


Fuck them. You go and have fun!!!


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## aceshigh (Aug 2, 2006)

FatCatMC said:
			
		

> Hurts doesn't it? I felt the same way when they told me to get out of the funball pit at Chuckee Cheese last week.


mwahahhahhaahahahaaah best post ive read today


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## 5abi (Aug 2, 2006)

so the balls shirnking does'nt have ne thing 2 do with test production just curious?

i did a  cycle (stoopid decision as i'm now ibgger then then), but my parents found my pct and jacked it..so i lost all my gains, but this could also be because i had no diet and stuff? and stopped working out what y'all think?


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## xven (Aug 2, 2006)

Depending on the compound, I'd half agree. In either way, under normal circumstances, the body will find a way to balance endogeneous hormones out over time.


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## The big guy (Aug 2, 2006)

The body wants to be and will regulate back to homestasis on its on.


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## BigPapaPump68 (Aug 2, 2006)

5abi said:
			
		

> so the balls shirnking does'nt have ne thing 2 do with test production just curious?
> 
> i did a  cycle (stoopid decision as i'm now ibgger then then), but my parents found my pct and jacked it..so i lost all my gains, but this could also be because i had no diet and stuff? and stopped working out what y'all think?


Not having a good diet in PCT will help you lose alot of that earned muscle.


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## 5abi (Aug 2, 2006)

what about the testicular shrinkage?


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## BigPapaPump68 (Aug 2, 2006)

5abi said:
			
		

> what about the testicular shrinkage?


If that occurs, you need HCG.


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## durk (Aug 2, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> A short PCT cycle is fine, but the 5-6 weerk post cycle begining 10-14 days after the last shot are BS IMO. After a test E cycle It is good to run PCT 3 weeks from day  one post cycle.....more than that is worthless. If you run a 15+ week cycle then I have no idea since I would never run such a stupid cycle.



Then why do most say they get the most out of an cycle that contains equipose with long 16 weekers or 14 at least?


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## GFR (Aug 2, 2006)

durk said:
			
		

> Then why do most say they get the most out of an cycle that contains equipose with long 16 weekers or 14 at least?


99% of the guys who run 16+ week cycles do so out of desperation.


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## durk (Aug 2, 2006)

foreman I am goin to run a 500mg test and 400mg equipose cycle in a couple of weeks how long from your experience would you say I would need to run it in order to get the full bennifits? this will be my second cycle


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## GFR (Aug 2, 2006)

durk said:
			
		

> foreman I am goin to run a 500mg test and 400mg equipose cycle in a couple of weeks how long from your experience would you say I would need to run it in order to get the full bennifits? this will be my second cycle


10-12 weeks


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## durk (Aug 2, 2006)

thoughts on frontloading eq?  
oh and sorry tough on the thread hijack


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## GFR (Aug 2, 2006)

*I don't believe in front loading*. It's better to jump start with test prop the first 3-4 weeks if you can.


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## BigPapaPump68 (Aug 3, 2006)

durk said:
			
		

> foreman I am goin to run a 500mg test and 400mg equipose cycle in a couple of weeks how long from your experience would you say I would need to run it in order to get the full bennifits? this will be my second cycle


400mg of equipose is to low IMO. Its so weak that most people run it anywhere from 500mg to 600mg a week.


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## Tough Old Man (Aug 3, 2006)

BigPapaPump68 said:
			
		

> 400mg of equipose is to low IMO. Its so weak that most people run it anywhere from 500mg to 600mg a week.


Agree. A min of 600 is best


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## 5abi (Aug 3, 2006)

but HCG is a must in the case of shrinkage.


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## BigPapaPump68 (Aug 3, 2006)

5abi said:
			
		

> but HCG is a must in the case of shrinkage.


Yes. You can run it in pct if you would like, but most run it during their cycle when some signs occur.


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## The big guy (Aug 4, 2006)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> Agree. A min of 600 is best


Hey PT I know you like your EQ, but don't ya think having to run those high doses for as long as you have to is telling you its a really weak AS, and the raise is RBC is a little unnerving. We are not kids no more ya know..LOL PM me...not that 600 is that high but shit to really see something from it you need to go even higher unless you are a novice...now thats a hijacked thread, but I still agree on the PCT..


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## Tough Old Man (Aug 4, 2006)

The big guy said:
			
		

> Hey PT I know you like your EQ, but don't ya think having to run those high doses for as long as you have to is telling you its a really weak AS, and the raise is RBC is a little unnerving. We are not kids no more ya know..LOL PM me...not that 600 is that high but shit to really see something from it you need to go even higher unless you are a novice...now thats a hijacked thread, but I still agree on the PCT..


I don't use 600 but I use 800 mgs /ew. My next cycles are going to be Deca iknstead of the EQ. I probably run the deca somewhere between 600-800 along with a gram of Test.


As soon as the cycle is over with, I might just run 400-500 grams of test for the next 6 months and see if I can still hold or add strength while cutting.


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## JACKED (Aug 5, 2006)

Don't know if it matters any to this thread, but I got my wife preagnant 2 weeks into pct last year and during cycle this year. We're pretty potent I assume because I've always heard that your sperm count is so low after cycle. I have 4 kids. Tough's orginal post has sparked some interesting thought. I am a huge fan of HCG as when I was on tren It made me feel very lethargic and lowered my six drive a bit. Got on HCG for a few weeks and I was good to go, Balls and all.


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## Tough Old Man (Aug 5, 2006)

JACKED said:
			
		

> Don't know if it matters any to this thread, but I got my wife preagnant 2 weeks into pct last year and during cycle this year. We're pretty potent I assume because I've always heard that your sperm count is so low after cycle. I have 4 kids. Tough's orginal post has sparked some interesting thought. I am a huge fan of HCG as when I was on tren It made me feel very lethargic and lowered my six drive a bit. Got on HCG for a few weeks and I was good to go, Balls and all.


I'm a fan of HCG. I use 500 ius ince a week while on cycle.


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## No....Name!!!! (Aug 5, 2006)

Nice thread Tough Old Man.


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## The big guy (Aug 6, 2006)

Yea you can feel your balls puff right up a day or two after using HCG, out of all the Pct drugs you can you IMO HCG is the most effective, Nolva is good but I do not have estrogen problems when on and so I don't think it is that effective for when off cycle


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## 5abi (Aug 7, 2006)

how much is hcg usualy? and can i get it from the doc (who knows what i'm diong) if my supplier don't got none?


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