# Sixteen cups of antelope gelatin



## Monolith (Sep 25, 2004)

In case youre wondering, this journal is titled so simply to make it easy to find. 

My last journal lasted just a couple days, because i really wasnt ready to start one - i hadnt thought out my bulking strategy very well.  Thanks to TP for saying as much. 

Anyway, here we go again...

Diet will be a kinda/sorta/bastardized version of carb cycling, with high carb days on each training day, and a low or no carb day on my off days (depending on how fat i look).  As usual, i probably wont be eating much beyond chicken, brown rice, and apples.

One notable exception is that i'll be using a during-w/o shake, likely ~60g protein and ~150g sugar.  I'm thinking something like 60% dex, 30% malto, 10% fructose.  I'm really only doing this because of the long duration of these w/o's.  I'll probably just have some low GI shit when i get back from the gym, maybe another 20-30g of protein.

The routine... this is what changed A LOT from a week ago.  I had planned on just whinging it in the gym, but was convinced otherwise.  So, the first thing that popped up in my search for a better, yet not completely sadistic routine was Lyle's version of periodization.  If you're interested, he wrote 3 articles about it for Mind and Muscle, and there's a few threads on it at bodyrecomposition.com (his site).

So, here's what i'll be doing for 4-6 weeks:

Scheduled as: Chest/Back/Grip, Hams/Quads/Calves, OFF, Shoulders/Biceps/Triceps/Abs, OFF. Repeat.

Emphasis will be on Chest, quads, and biceps. Everything else will be at maintenance. This first mesocycle is going to be with strength as the primary goal, probably aiming for 6 weeks.

*Day 1 (A) - Chest emphasis, back/grip maintenance:*
Decline BB press - 5 sets, 1-3 reps, 4-5 minute rest, 3/0/x tempo
Reverse BB row - 2 sets, 6-8 reps, 2-3 minute rest, 3/0/1 tempo
Incline DB press - 4 sets, 1-3 reps, 3-4 minute rest, 3/0/x tempo
Pulldowns - 2 sets, 10-12 reps, 1-2 minute rest, 3/0/2 tempo
Flat DB press - 1 set, 12-15 reps, 1-2 minute rest, 3/0/2 tempo
CG cable row - 1 set, timed: 60-120s, 1 minute rest, 2/0/2 tempo
Reverse BB wrist curl - 2 sets, 4-6 reps, 2-3 minute rest, 3/0/x tempo
_TOTAL: 17 sets, ~1.5 hours (without supersets)_


*Day 2 (B) - Quad emphasis, ham/calf/ab maintenance:*
Squats - 8 sets, 1-3 reps, 4-5 minute rest, 3/0/x tempo
SLDL - 2 sets, 6-8 reps, 2-3 minute rest, 3/0/1 tempo
Leg press - 3 sets, 10-12 reps, 1-2 minute rest, 3/0/2 tempo
Lying leg curl - 1 set, 10-12 reps, 1-2 minute rest, 3/0/2 tempo
Seated leg curl - 1 set, timed: 60-120s, 1 minute rest, 2/0/2 tempo
Standing calf raise - 3 sets, 6-8 reps, 1-2 minute rest, 3/0/2 tempo
Standing calf raise - 1 set, timed: 60-120s, 1 minute rest, 2/0/2 tempo
_TOTAL: 19 sets, ~1.75 hours (without supersets)_


*Day 3 - OFF*


*Day 4 (C) - Bicep emphasis, shoulders/triceps maintenance:*
Barbell curl - 4 sets, 1-4 reps, 4-5 minute rest, 2/0/x tempo
Seated BB mil press - 3 sets, 4-6 reps, 2-3 minute rest, 4/0/1 tempo
Cam bar preacher curls - 2 sets, 1-4 reps, 4-5 minute rest, 2/0/x tempo
Hammer machine mil press - 1 set, timed: 60-120s, 1 minute rest, 2/0/2 tempo
Cable curl - 1 set, 10-15 reps, 1-2 minute rest, 3/0/2 tempo
Decline CG bb press - 2 sets, 6-8 reps, 1-2 minute rest, 3/0/2 tempo
Pushdowns - 1 set, timed: 60-120s, 1 minute rest, 2/0/2 tempo
Decline situps - 2 sets, 4-6 reps, 2-3 minute rest, 4/0/1 tempo
Cable crunch - 2 sets, 6-8 reps, 1-2 minute rest, 3/0/2 tempo
_TOTAL: 18 sets, ~1.5 hours (without supersets)_


*Day 5 - OFF*


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## PreMier (Sep 25, 2004)

Interesting.  What exactly constitutes 'gelatin'?


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## Monolith (Sep 25, 2004)

My stats...

20, male, guesstimated bodyfat is around 15%.  This will be my first ever intelligent consumption of excess calories.  Mmm, how i will miss you, Detour. 

Measurements for 9/20:
Stomach - 38"
Right arm - 16"
Left arm - 16"
Right quad - 25"
Left quad - 25"
Neck - 15.75"
BW - 219.5lbs

Those are somewhat rough, i was in a hurry when i took them last monday.  I'll be taking stats every saturday morning (missed todays).  I'll be trying to get pics of myself, too... although thankfully i wont subject any readers to that grotesque imagery.


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## Monolith (Sep 25, 2004)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Interesting.  What exactly constitutes 'gelatin'?


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## Monolith (Sep 25, 2004)

The supplements/drugs...

Multi vit, extra calcium, extra magnesium, extra vit C, extra B complex.
300mg bupropion (wellbutrin) ED
150mg venlafaxine (effexor) ED
20-30mg adderall 3x day
50-60mg dextromethorphan (DXM) 1x night (not dosed concurrently with adderall; on an opposite day/night schedule)

May be adding selegiline (deprenyl) in at 5mg ED, but "deprenyl mk II" (rasagiline) is supposed to finally get FDA approved at the end of this year, so i might just wait for that.

May be adding in memantine (namenda) in at 10mg ED as replacement for DXM.


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## PreMier (Sep 25, 2004)

Whats the reason for DXM?  Sleep?


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## Monolith (Sep 25, 2004)

Training for 9/25:  Day A

*Decline BB press* -
245lbx3
245lbx3
245lbx3
245lbx3
245lbx3

*Reverse BB row* -
170lbx8
170lbx8

*Incline DB press* -
80lbx3
80lbx4
80lbx3
80lbx3

*WG pulldowns* -
150lbx12
150lbx10

*Flat DB press* -
60lbx11

*CG cable row* -
100lbx70s (s=seconds, timed set)

---

I'm not going to repeat the specific RI's and tempo's used for each exercise, but if anyone's interested, it should be pretty easy to correlate with the info i posted up above.

This was my second "A" day, and the first one that was done correctly.  However, even with the kind of crappy one i did 5 days ago, strength was greatly improved.  Even back strength, which was supposedly only at maintenance levels, got stronger.  Reverse rows with 165 for 8 and 7, this week it went 170 for 8 and 8.

So yeah, thus far, im liking this.


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## Dante B. (Sep 25, 2004)

From your recently abandoned journal:



> deprenyl or other MAOI's are going to be a fallback, since they seem to work well on atypical depression.



Selegiline in non MAO-B selective doses along with a PEA source (Chocamine, for example) works quite well for me; a selegeline transdermal is currently being pushed through the FDA pipeline.

Find that people who are atypically depressed are generally incapable of finding any middle ground in perception and action: hyper, then totally burnt out/up, down/manic, suicidal/ back and forth. Then you get the often debilitating psychosomatic symptoms.

Has been the way for me since I was a kid - plagued with migraines (when younger at least), severely phobic (had to have rail guards on the bed because I was afraid of falling out), obsessive, and so on.

Cognitive behavioral therapy can work quite well. When you're active, you have to prevent yourself from getting so carried away that you get burnt out. Stop yourself from getting too far ahead of yourself when you're energetic and active, and you'll reduce the severity of the downs. I was born a sprinter, not an endurance athlete, apparently.

So when you're feeling great, _that's_ when you have to be mindful of your surroundings and internal process. 

Something to consider. If you're like me, then you'll also find alcohol to be pure poison, in any amount. I avoid it, because even a few drinks is enough to severely depress my system with a carry-over effect pouring into the next day; even if I don't get drunk, my system is trashed nevertheless. 




> I remember there was a thread at avant on preventing amphetamine sensitization, but (like most things) i havent had the time to go find it. IIRC there were some good ideas in there that might prolong my love affair with adderall.



NMDA receptor antagonists. But as several people pointed out, you'll also reduce the subjective effects of focus and energy. So there's a trade-off.

Dep, PEA and nicotine keeps it going for me. Along with a stoic oulook on life - though, that's my approach, and I can't tell someone to "be stoic!"


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## Monolith (Sep 25, 2004)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Whats the reason for DXM?  Sleep?



Trying to stave off tolerance to the adderall.  Initially at ~25mg, mood elevation was extreme... bordering on euphoria.  Incredibly happy outlook, motivated, energetic, outgoing, and unbothered by things that would normally make me anxious.  These effects have slowly worn away over the past month or two.  It's originally intended purpose - treating my ADD - has not had the same tolerance build.

I'd love to find a way to retain some of the mood-altering effects of the amphetamine without increasing the dose to neurotoxic and generally problematic levels.  In theory DXM should help... and its had a few good anecdotal reports, but it's not quite as "clean" as something like memantine.  I won't get into it, but the way memantine antagonizes the receptor in question "jives" a lot better with amphetamine use than something like DXM.

Besides, this cough syrup tastes like shit.


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## Monolith (Sep 25, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> From your recently abandoned journal:
> 
> Selegiline in non MAO-B selective doses along with a PEA source (Chocamine, for example) works quite well for me; a selegeline transdermal is currently being pushed through the FDA pipeline.
> 
> ...



Interesting to hear some feedback on the dep + PEA.  How does it affect your mood?  I mean, is it on par with a good anti-depressent, or is it along the lines of amphetamine?  I'm curious, since i think it was in Novicks deprenyl article that he likened PEA to an endogenous amphetamine.

Weird that the FDA is pushing through a selegiline patch, too.  Is deprenyl becoming popular again?  And any idea what the reasoning is for transdermal delivery?

Your description of atypical depression jives with my own symptoms, too.  This shit sucks.  The advice on the highs and lows is something i really hadnt thought about previously... but it certainly applies.  In fact, my recent high resulted in a rather heavy courseload.  I've had my fingers crossed that my current love-of-life affliction lasts the entire semester.

I don't drink too often, but ive never noticed any excessively bad moods post-binge.  In fact, my hangovers are usually pretty mild.  That reminds me, actually - ever try megadosing sesathin during/after drinking?  There was some article/blurb on sesamin i think i posted over at Lyle's board regarding some interesting anti-hangover effects.


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## Dante B. (Sep 25, 2004)

Monolith said:
			
		

> Interesting to hear some feedback on the dep + PEA.  How does it affect your mood?  I mean, is it on par with a good anti-depressent, or is it along the lines of amphetamine?  I'm curious, since i think it was in Novicks deprenyl article that he likened PEA to an endogenous amphetamine.



What do you mean by "good antidepressant."   Few things positively and noticeabley affect me. I like Dep and PEA because it's strong enough to make a difference, but mild enough so as not to elicit negative reactions (I avoid amphetamines and such, because I wouldn't be able to control myself - a recent experience with meth reminded me of that).

PEA isn't orally available without an MAO-B inhibitor.

As far as mood, I'm simply more balanced. But I have other personality quirks that I don't want to get into, so what works for me, and what I experience, isn't necessarily going to be the case for others even if general symptoms are shared.



> Weird that the FDA is pushing through a selegiline patch, too.  Is deprenyl becoming popular again?  And any idea what the reasoning is for transdermal delivery?



Dep has been studied for atypical and major depression - there's renewed interest in MAOI's (selegline, maclobemide) that don't carry the risks associated with the classic inhibitors; with transdermal delivery you avoid the potential for tyramine reactions with non-selective doses.



> The advice on the highs and lows is something i really hadnt thought about previously... but it certainly applies.  In fact, my recent high resulted in a rather heavy courseload



Exactly. I learned to control myself during my highs so I wouldn't put myself at risk. I'd take on so much, read through so many books (etc), then later put myself in a position where I was incapable of doing anything.

I rely on meditation (far beyond mere relaxation techniques) to keep everything moving, without letting myself get out of hand; I accomplish far more when I spent my time meditating, instead of researching drugs. If you know what you're doing, you can teach yourself to induce trips and trances, among other things. Your body is a pharmacy, and your brain is in charge of the prescriptions.



> That reminds me, actually - ever try megadosing sesathin during/after drinking?



No. Because I rarely drink - alcohol isn't a feel-good drug for me. Since I no longer work for Avant, I rarely spend my time looking into supplements and strategies. I'm out of the loop.


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## Dante B. (Sep 25, 2004)

Also:

Have you ever read The Discources of Epictetus, and the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius?

As with the Bible, merely reading the books won't do you any good if you're a saint on Sunday and a forgetful sinner the following week. Whenever you're high or low, read through them and apply the thoughts to yours, then yours to theirs - see if there's a constrast between what you 'know' and what you're doing. Stoic philosophy was the ancients' cognitive therapy. So it's not something to simply read and discuss, like the Christians who talk to talk about the good book and spend their time drinking and fucking like infidels. An active approach to well-being doesn't end when you leave the psych's office, or shut the medicine cabinet.

It's a constant process. Years ago when I was twenty (I'm 27, now), stoic philosophy made a great impact on me: how I perceived, acted. But, it's something that has to be continually applied and renewed; emotions, reactions and thoughts have to be repeatedly stripped down before they spin you in circles. When I run on autopilot, and act as if I "know" what I need to know, I soon forget, confusing knowing with believing, ending up where I began.

So, take the time when you have it to sit down and analzye your thoughts; stoicism is merely a useful tool to help you reduce and reintegrate them - it doesn't give you the answers, it allows you to soundly arrive at your own.


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## Cold Iron (Sep 25, 2004)

Hey monolith, what does a 3/0/2 tempo mean?


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## Monolith (Sep 25, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> What do you mean by "good antidepressant."   Few things positively and noticeabley affect me. I like Dep and PEA because it's strong enough to make a difference, but mild enough so as not to elicit negative reactions (I avoid amphetamines and such, because I wouldn't be able to control myself - a recent experience with meth reminded me of that).
> 
> PEA isn't orally available without an MAO-B inhibitor.
> 
> As far as mood, I'm simply more balanced. But I have other personality quirks that I don't want to get into, so what works for me, and what I experience, isn't necessarily going to be the case for others even if general symptoms are shared.



Interesting... i might give the PEA a try at some point.  At this point, id like to continue this orgasmic relationship with amphetamines as long as i can.  I hear you on the control issues, though... i'm forcing myself not to increase the dose beyond a certain point, regardless of any effects i could ellicit.  Something thats helped me control the urge is reading up on literature concerning the neurotoxic effects of high dose amphetamines (especially meth)... it'll definitely make you think twice before ingesting too many happy pills.  In fact, that's the very reason i'm interested in hopping on some low dose deprenyl - just for its neuroprotective properties.





			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> Dep has been studied for atypical and major depression - there's renewed interest in MAOI's (selegline, maclobemide) that don't carry the risks associated with the classic inhibitors; with transdermal delivery you avoid the potential for tyramine reactions with non-selective doses.



Ah ha!  I didn't connect the dots.  Well, that'd be friggin awesome... i wonder how much dep the patch can provide?  I wonder if they can do depo shots with it.





			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> Exactly. I learned to control myself during my highs so I wouldn't put myself at risk. I'd take on so much, read through so many books (etc), then later put myself in a position where I was incapable of doing anything.
> 
> I rely on meditation (far beyond mere relaxation techniques) to keep everything moving, without letting myself get out of hand; I accomplish far more when I spent my time meditating, instead of researching drugs. If you know what you're doing, you can teach yourself to induce trips and trances, among other things. Your body is a pharmacy, and your brain is in charge of the prescriptions.



Well thats just fucking cool.  See, i've always been really, _really_ good at controlling my emotions when im in a deep depression.  I suppose ive just had a lot of practice.  These amphetamine potentiated highs im getting now, though, are a whole new animal.  I'm much more "in the moment" and could care less about philosophical what-ifs that would normally plague every waking moment.  It's almost going from a third party witness to humanity, to actually becoming a part of it.  I suppose that could be both good and bad.

Anyway, re: the meditation... recommend any books?  Ive often thought about how great it'd be if we could have conscious control over our bodies various control mechanisms, but you're making it sound like a reality.  To be honest, i've always thought of meditation as glorified daydreaming.




			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> No. Because I rarely drink - alcohol isn't a feel-good drug for me. Since I no longer work for Avant, I rarely spend my time looking into supplements and strategies. I'm out of the loop.



Just ask Jodi for a swig of her bottled man-juice.


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## Monolith (Sep 25, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> Also:
> 
> Have you ever read The Discources of Epictetus, and the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius?
> 
> ...



I've read Epictetus, but not Meditations.  I've actually aquired quite a stack of books i want to read (shit, ive never even read most of Plato), but there never seems to be enough time (whether im actually running short of time, or just mentally out of time).  I think ive got Meditations stashed away somewhere.

I enjoyed Epictetus immensely.  In fact, i enjoy stoicism in general.  It seems like a giant evolutionary leap forward for humanity - breaking those final bonds with our primal, instinct driven anscestors.  But in practice, it seems like its just another false prophet.  I mean, you would have to live in isolation for the duration of your life to really enjoy that philosophy... since there really arent many people out there interested in or willing to shelve their emotional side.  It's too hard, and they can't understand why anyone would want to to begin with.  I mean, each one of those brief relapses into an emotional existence is really, _really_ fucking painful.  It seems like ive been saying this a lot lately, but it seems as though humanity just hasnt reached the cognitive ability to do much more than reproduce, yet.  The few people who seem to have some take on an alternate plane of consciousness are either crazy or were somehow traumatized emotionally/physically/psychologically to the point where it bumped them out of that primal, emotional response to life.  Hence, its just a bunch of us crackheads running around pissed off at the world for not being smart enough to see the world through the shattered glass like we do.

rofl, good luck interpreting that rant, btw.


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## Monolith (Sep 25, 2004)

Arnie's left nu said:
			
		

> Hey monolith, what does a 3/0/2 tempo mean?



On the eccentric portion of a lift (e.g. when lowering the bar to your chest on a bench press), you lower with a "count" of 3.  The 0 marks the length of the pause at the bottom of that eccentric motion.  The 2 marks the speed of the concentric portion (pushing the bar from your chest).


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## Cold Iron (Sep 25, 2004)

Monolith said:
			
		

> On the eccentric portion of a lift (e.g. when lowering the bar to your chest on a bench press), you lower with a "count" of 3.  The 0 marks the length of the pause at the bottom of that eccentric motion.  The 2 marks the speed of the concentric portion (pushing the bar from your chest).



yeah, i knew it was something like that. thx

Pretty detailed stuff. Are you trying to gain mass and lower bf% at the same time?


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## Monolith (Sep 25, 2004)

Arnie's left nu said:
			
		

> yeah, i knew it was something like that. thx
> 
> Pretty detailed stuff. Are you trying to gain mass and lower bf% at the same time?



Just gain some mass/strength.  I've been cutting for a long time, i think i can afford a month off.


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## Cold Iron (Sep 25, 2004)

true enough. cutting sucks.

Cool. Good luck.


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## Dante B. (Sep 25, 2004)

> i wonder how much dep the patch can provide?.



Haven't seen; haven't looked either.






> Well thats just fucking cool.  See, i've always been really, _really_ good at controlling my emotions when im in a deep depression.  I suppose ive just had a lot of practice.  These amphetamine potentiated highs im getting now, though, are a whole new animal.  I'm much more "in the moment" and could care less about philosophical what-ifs that would normally plague every waking moment.  It's almost going from a third party witness to humanity, to actually becoming a part of it.  I suppose that could be both good and bad.



It's not a matter of controlling emotions - rather, reviewing thought content and circumstances. It's easy to control your emotions when you're too tired or depressed to do anything. When you're on amphetamines, or when you have a manic upswing, then you have an accurate test of your knowledge and skills.

That's not an insult - just have to keep things in perspective. When I observe people on drugs, I often think that those who appear wise and sane aren't so out of design and willpower, but only chance. Give a shy person enough coke, a person who's normally perceived as being respectful and kind, and you'll see that he wasn't the creator of his default state. It was an accident, a reaction - but not a creation. So he has no control when the chemicals shift in another direction. A person who smokes enough weed suddenly enjoys American Idol. Normally they wouldn't, but it certainly wasn't because of a deep understand of what is and isn't meaningful to them as an individual and as an actor who's conscious of the moment.

But on grass, everything is interesting and worthy of attention! For most.

It isn't an either/or - sitting down pondering absurdities that aren't of relevance to who you are and what you want isn't philosophical thought; it's a disease. Just as acting "in the moment" doesn't have to be a blind state of acting that's divorced from an understanding of intentions and outcomes.

But it certainly takes time and practice to know and experience that balance. When people (speaking in general) complain of "thinking too much," I translate that as: "spend too much time dwelling on irrelevant bullshit."

When I'm talking about taking the time to think, I'm not talking about dwelling on bullshit. And everything is bullshit if you can't make use of it, and if it doesn't hold the prospect of making you better for pondering it. 


I'm not preaching to you or attacking you - I have the same problem. But you can't correct yourself if you haven't a clue what the answer is, and where you're going wrong.



> Anyway, re: the meditation... recommend any books?  Ive often thought about how great it'd be if we could have conscious control over our bodies various control mechanisms, but you're making it sound like a reality.  To be honest, i've always thought of meditation as glorified daydreaming.



No. I don't believe in reading books when it comes to meditation, beyond the basics which you likely can find on the 'net (breathing techniques, so on). Then you have to take it from there, on your own. It certainly is daydreaming for most - what would you expect, a person who's a fool in thought to be wise in practice and action? Interpreting a rich experience for what it is, even if they're a fool? As it happens with the typical acidhead - they claim to have learned, but have nothing to show for it; the problem wasn't the experience, it was the interpreter. So I avoid all of those books, for that reason. I figured it out on my own.

In general, just think of this:

When you're high, or in a good mood, can you feel the areas of your brain (even if not in region-specific detail) that are active or suppressed? And contrast that to what you're feeling when you're anxious or miserable?

Remember those patterns - just as the thoughts of something that pleases you (a loved one, a song, going to a favorite hang out spot in an hour) evokes a noticeable and distinct reaction and image. When you're meditating, recall those patterns, the different regions that were active or suppressed in a moment that you can recall. If you can't recall any specific moments, then the next time you're incredibly anxious, depressed, or, excited, take note of what you're feeling and where - as you would with a headache (e.g. "I feel pressure up front," "there's a sharp pain in the middle.")

Then, when your thoughts shift (something that takes you from miserable to elated, or elated to depressed), feel what's going on in your head; feel, I didn't say think about it. As you would change what you're thinking about (e.g. "I shouldn't let this get to me, in two hours I'm going to hang out with Bob and I won't be worrying about this nonsense')," learn to do the same with the patterns.

In certain states, you can actively manipulate different regions of the brain; transcendental meditation is very real, although the reasons, purposes and experiences told by others is most definitely often sheer nonsense. Certain areas of the brain have been identified with out-of-body experiences and the like; it doesn't come to follow that a person's _experience_ isn't real, just because they attribute it to "universal consciousness," the hand of God, or trans-dimensional peregrinations. 



> I enjoyed Epictetus immensely. In fact, i enjoy stoicism in general. It seems like a giant evolutionary leap forward for humanity - breaking those final bonds with our primal, instinct driven anscestors. But in practice, it seems like its just another false prophet. I mean, you would have to live in isolation for the duration of your life to really enjoy that philosophy...



Who told you to be a stoic? It's not an end, or a goal. What, you think that stoicism only serves a purpose if you wish to transform yourself into fucking Spock? Live long and prosper.

It's something for yourself, to do what you will with it, regardless of what other people do or don't understand. It shouldn't be used to deaden your emotions. Rather, when you're excited or depressed, then you know if you're suffering or experiencing joy for the wrong reasons. It's to clarify perceptions and reactions, not eliminate them.

Instead of being "happy," "anxious," "sad," and whatever else. Why? Who knows, not even you. Then you have no control over the experience, the perception, or the ability to transform a negative experience (or situation) into something else, or the capacity to sustain a positive high. You're simply taken back and forth with circumstances that you don't understand and can't control - you just react. Why? Who knows, not even you. That's where stoicism plays a role; that's why cognitive behavior therapy (when properly taught) is so beneficial in many disorders as a stand-alone or adjunct - but, it has to be an ongoing process, and enjoying the process of thinking and perceiving shouldn't be viewed as burdensome homework. You learn to enjoy it, because you view it as a necessity that allows you to appreciate the thing you truly enjoy - knowing why you enjoy them - being able to avoid what isn't beneficial, without suffering for it.

Easier said than done, of course; but there has to be an understanding of what's going to be done and why before you can do anything purposefully.

And I understood your rant  Trust me, if I went off, I could outrant you any day. I'm not sure if that's something I should be bragging about.

Hopefully I'm not hijacking your journal - started off with the intent to drop some basic observations, and leave.


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## Monolith (Sep 25, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> It's not a matter of controlling emotions - rather, reviewing thought content and circumstances. It's easy to control your emotions when you're too tired to do anything. When you're on amphetamines, or when you have a manic upswing, then you have an accurate test of your skills.
> 
> That's not an insult - just have to keep things in perspective. When I observe people on drugs, I often think that those who appear wise and sane aren't so out of design and willpower, but only by chance. Give a shy person enough coke, a person who's normally perceived as being respectful and kind, and you'll see that he wasn't the creator of his default state. It was an accident, a reaction - but not a creation. So he has no control when the chemicals shift in another direction.
> 
> ...



So, whats the purpose of striving for that balance?  I mean, what has made you decide that it's the best choice?  How did you decide what type of thinking makes you a better person?  Does it just make the most sense to you?  Does it fit best with your lifestyle/the people around you?

In other words, how do you determine whats irrelevant bullshit and what isnt?






			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> No. I don't believe in reading books when it comes to meditation, beyond the basics which you likely can find on the 'net (breathing techniques, so on). Then you have to take it from there, on your own. It certainly is daydreaming for most - what would you expect, a person who's a fool in thought to be wise in practice and action? Interpreting a rich experience for what it is, even if they're a fool? As it happens with the typical acidhead - they claim to have learned, but have nothing to show for it; the problem wasn't the experience, it was the interpreter. So I avoid all of those books, for that reason. I figured it out on my own.
> 
> In general, just think of this:
> 
> ...



Whoa.

I'm not sure if i've got the mental discipline to approach something like that... but i'll certainly try to be more aware about relating the physical brain to my emotional states.  How far have you been able to take this?  Do you have to be meditating, or can you use these exercises in response to daily problems?

It almost sounds like the temptation to make your meditative discoveries into something more than they are is akin to the temptation to abuse amphetamine.





			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> Who told you to be a stoic? It's not an end, or a goal. What, you think that stoicism only serves a purpose if you wish to transform yourself into fucking Spock?
> 
> It's something for yourself, to do what you will with it, regardless of what other people do or don't understand. It shouldn't be used to deaden your emotions. Rather, when you're excited or depressed, then you know if you're suffering or experiencing joy for the wrong reasons. It's to clarify perceptions and reactions, not eliminate them.
> 
> ...



Eh... i think i see what you're saying.  So the idea is more to gather an understanding of how emotions work, and why they work... not so much a way to live?

And fuck no, im enjoying this a lot... much more interesting than reading a list of how many sets of calf raises i did.


----------



## Dante B. (Sep 25, 2004)

> So, whats the purpose of striving for that balance?  I mean, what has made you decide that it's the best choice?  How did you decide what type of thinking makes you a better person?  Does it just make the most sense to you?  Does it fit best with your lifestyle/the people around you?



Let's restate this:

Would a psychiatrist prescribe thorazine to a person who was temporarily down after the loss of a job?

Simple put:

If you're happy with who you are, what you're doing, and what's happening at the moment, why fix what isn't broken. Even if I don't agree with that person's life or conception of good living, if they're happy, then that's all they need to know.

If you're "living for the moment," constantly burning yourself out and dealing with consequences that you can't handle and didn't expect, do you have a problem?

If you spend so much time thinking and worrying about this or that, but never experiencing the moments you wish you live, is there a problem?

If so, in either case, what should you do?



> In other words, how do you determine whats irrelevant bullshit and what isnt?



I'm speaking in relative terms, not absolute, if that wasn't clear: if you're not happy, and if something isn't making you better off, is it good - _for you_?

Will it do you any good to read a thousand more books if you haven't made use of - applied - the material you've already read for your betterment? Material that you deemed worthy of your attention and time?

That goes for thinking, and anything in general. Even if something is good for you, you have to know why - in action and belief - not just in words, if you're going to make use of it. 




> I'm not sure if i've got the mental discipline to approach something like that... but i'll certainly try to be more aware about relating the physical brain to my emotional states.



You only need to go as far as necessary to achieve the desired results. A person who's happy in general, but a little stressed, is better off with simple relaxation techniques. They have no reason to go deeper, just as a person who's slightly depressed isn't in need of lithium.



> How far have you been able to take this?



Trips and trances. But it's difficult. I don't practice such things just because I can. And I don't have any practical reason to go that deep, very often. 



> Do you have to be meditating, or can you use these exercises in response to daily problems?



Great! I'm glad you figured that out - relevance. What you learn through meditation is to be applied to what you're perceiving and experiencing daily. Unlike the acidheads who speak of their "wonderful and enlightening trips," acting and suffering like the fools they are when they're not tripping. What's learned is what's applied. Knowledge without an application isn't knowledge. 

On a day to day basis, the overall goal is to avoid being overwhelmed by things that shouldn't get to you - to identity problems as they occur, without being paralyzed with anxiety. Simply, to experience and control a moment without losing focus of intentions and outcomes.

How far you have to go into the process is determined by the severity of your problems. 



> It almost sounds like the temptation to make your meditative discoveries into something more than they are is akin to the temptation to abuse amphetamine.



Definitely. Which is rather unfortunate.

I spoke of meditation in general, as a technique, as with cognitive therapy. There's no reason to go too far into something if you're generally happy with what you have now; anything more would be masturbation, or useless, like the fucking acidheads and their trips, or the melding with the universal consciousnesss balderdash.

Trip after trip, experience after experience, but what to show for it? 

The statement in essence is:

You do have some control over your life and experiences - perceptions and reactions. Certain techniques allow you to realize that potential and meaningfully apply it.

I'm certainly _not_ telling you to avoid prescription drugs and psychiatrists. I want that to be clear. I despise the "pychiatry is a bunch of bullshit" movement. But, there are things you can do on your own, as an adjunct to treatment. 




> Eh... i think i see what you're saying.  So the idea is more to gather an understanding of how emotions work, and why they work... not so much a way to live?



Yes.

Your emotions, though; your life, your goals. Think of stoicism merely as a tool. For what end you're applying those tools is for you to figure out. But a sculptor, whether a creative genius or a fool, won't get far without a chisel.

If you're not happy with what you've thus far created, then you have to reassess your approach and the contents of your toolbag. You wouldn't do so just for the sake of it.



> And fuck no, im enjoying this a lot... much more interesting than reading a list of how many sets of calf raises i did.



So long as I'm not messing up your journal. As I said, I'm not preaching. I generally don't even like to discuss any of this, beyond the basics (recommending cognitive therapy, etc). 

My approach has nothing to do with: Man, this is so far out! Check it out dude!!!

Do what's necessary, and only what's necessary in relation to your goals and circumstances. You wouldn't give your friend a hit of acid if he simply wanted to cool down with a beer after a hard day of work.


----------



## Dante B. (Sep 25, 2004)

> Trips and trances. But it's difficult. I don't practice such things just because I can. And I don't have any practical reason to go that deep, very often.



I should add that my direct purpose isn't to achieve these states - rather, it's an indirect method where I learned to combat suicidal ideation, severe panic attacks, and other debilitating psychological states; situations where I can't afford to spent too much time in the hole. My body and mind have been shot to shit over the past months, I've lost 50 fucking pounds because of it - muscle, not fat - so obviously I've been forced to take a more intensive approach again.

So, your practice and approach runs only as deep as the sanity you're endeavoring to retrieve or sustain. Efficiency is the ultimate goal.


----------



## JerseyDevil (Sep 25, 2004)

Damn, it's good to see you posting at IM again Dante.... And like I said in the past Mono, you are much more articulate then many people here realize.

"I took my dog Brownie for a walk.  He pooped on my neighbor's lawn" has so much more meaning now .


----------



## Monolith (Sep 26, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> Let's restate this:
> 
> Would a psychiatrist prescribe thorazine to a person who was temporarily down after the loss of a job?
> 
> ...



How do you determine how best to make yourself happy, though?  I mean, when im in one of my darker phases, i can be perfectly content to just sit and contemplate life for hours.  In a lighter phase, itd make me much happier to be out socializing or somehow challenging my mind/body.  I mean, in that kind of case, which way do you turn?  How do you determine the "true" baseline for which to try and center your emotional spectrum?






			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> That goes for thinking, and anything in general. Even if something is good for you, you have to know why - in action and belief - not just in words, if you're going to make use of it.



Well put.  It's a lot easier to just ingest and store as much information as you can than to methodically examine what it is that's holding your attention, why it's doing so, and what relevance it has to your life.  I wonder why that is?  Ego?




			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> You only need to go as far as necessary to achieve the desired results. A person who's happy in general, but a little stressed, is better off with simple relaxation techniques. They have no reason to go deeper, just as a person who's slightly depressed isn't in need of lithium.



How far do you think you _can_ go?  And isnt the temptation to find out almost overwhelming?  I mean, being able to invoke a trance isn't exactly a common ability.  It's an exploration of the mind-brain connection that few people can take... i can see how it's similar to self-medicating, but at the same time, it's a much more therapeutic and introspective method than tossing someone a bottle of lithium.  I can't see how you could possibly be satisfied with only reaching a certain level of "depth," while the possibility of an infinite number of unexplored levels remains.  Maybe i just have to try it to understand.




			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> Great! I'm glad you figured that out - relevance. What you learn through meditation is to be applied to what you're perceiving and experiencing daily. Unlike the acidheads who speak of their "wonderful and enlightening trips," acting and suffering like the fools they are when they're not tripping. What's learned is what's applied. Knowledge without an application isn't knowledge.
> 
> On a day to day basis, the overall goal is to avoid being overwhelmed by things that shouldn't get to you - to identity problems as they occur, without being paralyzed with anxiety. Simply, to experience and control a moment without losing focus of intentions and outcomes.
> 
> How far you have to go into the process is determined by the severity of your problems.



This is probably going to be a little hard to explain, but how does a trance you experienced 2 days ago help with anxiety in the present?  Is it just through a better understanding of how your brain reacts to a situation?  The methodology behind the madness?





			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> Definitely. Which is rather unfortunate.
> 
> I spoke of meditation in general, as a technique, as with cognitive therapy. There's no reason to go too far into something if you're generally happy with what you have now; anything more would be masturbation, or useless, like the fucking acidheads and their trips, or the melding with the universal consciousnesss balderdash.
> 
> ...



So, in other words, a trip on acid is worthless because there was no effort spent trying to attain it?  No pre-trip ideal that what theyre going to experience is more than just "feeling good"?  No discipline to recognize that what they're experiencing is just another less known tangent of their psyche, not some 3 hour visit to heaven?

I wonder if someone who's managed to get there on their own can then use acid (or any psychoactive drug) to facilitate later meditative needs?  Would they then have the understanding and the respect for the experience to interpret it correctly?  In a way that benefits their "normal" lives?  Or are we too forgetfull, and we need to experience that effort each and every time, else we lose ourselves in the "good feeling" of the moment?






			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> Your emotions, though; your life, your goals. Think of stoicism merely as a tool. For what end you're applying those tools is for you to figure out. But a sculptor, whether a creative genius or a fool, won't get far without a chisel.
> 
> If you're not happy with what you've thus far created, then you have to reassess your approach and the contents of your toolbag. You wouldn't do so just for the sake of it.



See, that goes back to my original problem:  I don't know what makes me happy.  I'm sort of wandering around, trying out anything available to me.  I've got a bag full of chisels, and ive chipped the block with each one, but i still don't see any art poking out of the stone.  I suppose i'm the only one who can "reassess my toolbag," but im just not quite sure how to yet.  Lobotomy always seems to pop up in these instances as the best way out. 







			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> So long as I'm not messing up your journal. As I said, I'm not preaching. I generally don't even like to discuss any of this, beyond the basics (recommending cognitive therapy, etc).
> 
> My approach has nothing to do with: Man, this is so far out! Check it out dude!!!
> 
> Do what's necessary, and only what's necessary in relation to your goals and circumstances. You wouldn't give your friend a hit of acid if he simply wanted to cool down with a beer after a hard day of work.



Not at all.  I'm gaining far more from a conversation like this than i am a day by day analysis of my hour in the gym.  I appreciate you taking the time.

And while your approach may not have anything to do with how cool this is, that's one of the ways it's striking me right now.  Hopefully i can get that under control before i try, lest i become another acidhead with an endogenous supply of drug.


----------



## Monolith (Sep 26, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> I should add that my direct purpose isn't to achieve these states - rather, it's an indirect method where I learned to combat suicidal ideation, severe panic attacks, and other debilitating psychological states; situations where I can't afford to spent too much time in the hole. My body and mind have been shot to shit over the past months, I've lost 50 fucking pounds because of it - muscle, not fat - so obviously I've been forced to take a more intensive approach again.
> 
> So, your practice and approach runs only as deep as the sanity you're endeavoring to retrieve or sustain. Efficiency is the ultimate goal.



Interesting.

See, i've come extremely close to suicide quite a few times... but at that point, even the idea there was a way to come out of that hole wouldn't have been appealing.  I'd recognize my current state as the proper one, with no urge to remove myself from that mindset.  How do you manage to force yourself into recognizing that suicidal hole as an improper one?  That you're really not supposed to feel that way?  Is it, in a way, like the opposite of a trip?  You need to force yourself to realize it's just one extreme of the spectrum, not a new state of reality?

Too bad you can't will your body into hyperplasia, eh?


----------



## Monolith (Sep 26, 2004)

JerseyDevil said:
			
		

> Damn, it's good to see you posting at IM again Dante.... And like I said in the past Mono, you are much more articulate then many people here realize.
> 
> "I took my dog Brownie for a walk.  He pooped on my neighbor's lawn" has so much more meaning now .



rofl

Yeah, the title of this thread IS quite erudite, isnt it?


----------



## Vieope (Sep 26, 2004)

Monolith said:
			
		

> The supplements/drugs...
> 
> Multi vit, extra calcium, extra magnesium, extra vit C, extra B complex.
> 300mg *bupropion* (wellbutrin) ED
> ...



_
"DXM should not be used (either recreationally or at normal dosage levels) by people who are taking a monoamine oxidase inhibitor..."
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/faq/dxm_general_info.shtml#toc.4.16.1
_


----------



## Dante B. (Sep 26, 2004)

The same applies to amphetamines (Adderal), antidepressants, and MAOI's. Though, with Deprenyl, low doses that are relatively selective for MAO-B may not hold the same effects as a non-selective MAO or non-selective dose.

Even then, depends on the individual; that is, "10 mgs of selegiline won't interfere with MAO-A" doesn't take the person's specific makeup into account.


----------



## Dante B. (Sep 26, 2004)

> How do you determine how best to make yourself happy, though? I can tell someone if I mean, when im in one of my darker phases, i can be perfectly content to just sit and contemplate life for hours. In a lighter phase, itd make me much happier to be out socializing or somehow challenging my mind/body. I mean, in that kind of case, which way do you turn?



Do you want me to tell you what you should or shouldn't be doing and enjoying? I can't.

I can only point out the flaws in your own thinking, when you're talking about _your_ vision of happiness.

If you're content to sit down, sit. If you're happy staying there, stay. If you want to go out and mix it up, do so.

Once you articulate (at least to yourself) what you desire, and what you're aiming for, then you'll see if your actions are taking you in the right or wrong direction.

Unless you're going to tell me that you're happy sitting down pondering the meaning of life, even if you're upset that you're single and alone. But what if having friends and a social circle is one of your distant goals?

What if you're sitting down pondering the meaning of life for weeks on end, forgetting your responsibilities at work?

If you're happy with what you're doing, in any stage, dealing with the consequences, fine. If you're happy on your ass, but not happy that you're starving, where did you go wrong?





> How do you determine the "true" baseline for which to try and center your emotional spectrum?



When I'm moving in one direction without subverting my plans. Don't ask what the "direction" or plan is, it's irrelevant to you. But if I want to be clear-minded and free of distraction, am I contradicting myself if everyone distracts and angers me?

Yes. Then I have to see what I'm reacting to, and if my response is appropriate. I couldn't answer, "Yes, it is appropriate," if it's followed with, "but I've been so upset for the past two weeks, I haven't been able to concentrate on my homework."

You can't fabricate an outlook on life or a system of belief. Don't confuse me on those terms. All I can point out is the steps to arrive at your own.



> Well put. It's a lot easier to just ingest and store as much information as you can than to methodically examine what it is that's holding your attention, why it's doing so, and what relevance it has to your life. I wonder why that is? Ego?



How you view yourself and what you expect of yourself is a reflection of how you perceive others and the world around you. How you define intelligence, respect, and other related aspects of personality and worth determines how you act.

If people define "intelligence" as the human equivalent of an encyclopedia, it won't surprise me if you follow accordingly after tacitly accepting those terms.

We all act for our own good; few of us know how we've defined "good." 



> How far do you think you can go? And isnt the temptation to find out almost overwhelming?



Not necessarily. Would you drive three hours, _for each hit_ of your favorite drug?

I do what's necessary. 

All you could attempt to point out is the contradiction, if any, between my actions and expectations. 

"I want to see how far I can go with this drug," followed by, "man, I'd really like to get out of this field and find better work." If this man spends too much time on cloud nine, it isn't likely that he'll be acting upon those goals; there's no relation between what he wants and what he does. Whatever he "does," is irrelevant, if we look at it in the context of what else he desires.

Even if his actions are beneficial and necessary, it may not be so if we consider the frequency and extent of those actions. One drink is nice if I want to relax, should I go for the entire keg?

What's necessary is what's needed to achieve a defined end. What you consider the proper end for you as an individual is irrelevant to me; just as my ends are irrelevant to you, or should be.

But, we can discuss steps.




> I mean, being able to invoke a trance isn't exactly a common ability. It's an exploration of the mind-brain connection that few people can take... i can see how it's similar to self-medicating, but at the same time, it's a much more therapeutic and introspective method than tossing someone a bottle of lithium. I can't see how you could possibly be satisfied with only reaching a certain level of "depth," while the possibility of an infinite number of unexplored levels remains. Maybe i just have to try it to understand.



I medicate myself with my goals in mind. I wouldn't use, say, LSD, just for the fuck of it - again and again. To see how far I can push it - push what? To where? Without any goal in mind?

Then you can critize my actions in relation to a goal. 





> I'd recognize my current state as the proper one, with no urge to remove myself from that mindset. How do you manage to force yourself into recognizing that suicidal hole as an improper one?



An improper reaction to a valid perception?

If you have a valid reason to feel a certain way after given circumstances, does it follow that your subsequent reaction in intensity and duration is proper?

Unless you're telling me and telling yourself that you're happy living in that hole, and that it serves a purpose. What are you reacting to? What are you thinking and feeling when you're suicidal? 

"This person did that to me." "I wanted this and received something else instead."

Even if your point is valid, I doubt you'll argue that your response necessarily is.




> That you're really not supposed to feel that way? Is it, in a way, like the opposite of a trip? You need to force yourself to realize it's just one extreme of the spectrum, not a new state of reality?



Feel that way, according to whom? For what reasons?

"I'm not supposed to be sad, because the man on the TV is happy with his large house and the white picket fence. I have those things, but I'm not happy."

Even with:

"I worked hard to put this project in motion, but everything collapsed and no one recognized the validity and value of my input."

Perhaps so. Then what will you do? Is there another way around it? If not, another avenue? Did you do everything you could, even in how you presented those ideas?


Suffering for what? Praise - then whose? Anyone's? "No, only acknowledgment from those I respect." How do you define respect when you're judging if someone's worth of it?

Anxiety and depression, like physical pain, are sensations. They're useful, because you wouldn't learn to respect fire and take precautions before entering a burning house if you didn't have a prior conception of the sensory consequences.

If you're burned, using morphine to dull the pain, will it serve a purpose if you haven't learned to stop putting your hand in the stove? Or if you need to, not without a glove?

It's no different with meditation. It can be used to dull pain, and to learn the source of it; both remedy and prevention.

I apologize if this is incoherent. I'm having a difficult time relating, because I've never thought in terms of what I'm supposed or not supposed to be feeling. And I'm just out of it mentally. There's a reason why I stayed away from the boards...



> Too bad you can't will your body into hyperplasia, eh?



Will it? With a magic wand? No.

Develop and strengthen pathways even when you're not lifting? Yes you can. Basic example:

Lay down and close your eyes; relax your body. Visualize that you're using your dominant hand to write - as though you were actually moving without actually doing so.

Do the same with your other hand. Can you sense a difference between your ability to visualize the action with one hand, and the other? Now see how this can be applied to lifting. If you're having a difficult time, try this first.

There's a reason why top level athletes use visualization as an ingredient in their training regimens; during the action, before it, even in bed. The same applies to those who envision a scenario playing out before they're actually in it - say, a speech or business presentation): how they'll feel, what they'll see, how they've felt in past related circumstances, what happened, etc.

But, even such techniques will help only so much when they're not integrated into a consistent system of perceiving and acting (which is why what we "know," is rarely what we "believe" - you can't fake belief, and that's why the typical NLP'er, for example, is all technique and no game).


I'm not talking about magic here. What people consider impossible often has nothing to do with wizards and sorcery. And the few people who do understand the techniques rarely apply them in a coherent and meaningful manner - the 'fake it until you make its.' Can go through the techniques and motions - can't fake your love for the game.


----------



## Dante B. (Sep 26, 2004)

> Language was made for men to eat and drink, make love, do barter, die. The wealth of a language consists in its Abstrasts; the poorest tongues have wealth of Concretes - Aleister Crowley



Something to think about when you're discussing "happiness," sadness, depression, or whatever mental state - even with yourself - or reading books speaking on such matters.

Reminds me of the women who'll wax poetic about love, and their current lover, soon after saying, "He doesn't listen, he doesn't respect me, he treats me like shit, and his eyes wander everywhere but about me."

Striving and suffering for a string of words, certainly not for ideas that are translated and understood in application and impact. The 40 year old executive who has all the ingredients for 'happiness', but wakes up one day wondering what's the damned point? Yep.


----------



## Dante B. (Sep 26, 2004)

Is any of this making sense? I can keep going on and on, so you'd better tell me when to shut up if I start to ruin your journal.



Didn't address the following - misread several statements (going off on unrelated tangents), just out of it. My practice, I gather:



> See, that goes back to my original problem: I don't know what makes me happy. I'm sort of wandering around, trying out anything available to me. I've got a bag full of chisels, and ive chipped the block with each one, but i still don't see any art poking out of the stone. I suppose i'm the only one who can "reassess my toolbag," but im just not quite sure how to yet.



That's understandable. It's a mistake to define, or endeavor to define, a purpose in specifics.

Examples:

"I'd be happy if I was working for this company, having this job, owning these things."

Instead: it's the essence that I define. The various processes of reasoning and doing that I enjoy - which may be applied to many ends, high and low.

Ask yourself: what do I see in the world and in people that's corrupt, and what do I see that isn't. You'll likely arrive at several answers (of your own) that you weren't explicitly aware of.

When a thought, a person, or a situation makes you happy, take a step back to analyze it. This gets back to what we said before: when you're full of life, that's when you have to be mindful of your states and surroundings.

People tend to take their happier moments for granted, "living for the moment" - not understanding what that "moment" is in contrast to the mundane. When it's over, then they're lost. 



> So, in other words, a trip on acid is worthless because there was no effort spent trying to attain it?



No. Because a person doesn't know how to apply that experience; like a monkey reading Plato, would it do the monkey any good? Reading books, dropping acid, going to school - each has its benefits. What those benefits are solely depends on who the person is, how they interpret the experience, what they expect from it and how it's applied.


It's okay to experiment (books, whatever), to get a sense of what's out there. Eventually, experimentitation gives way to purposeful action - intent with an understanding of implications. Which isn't to say that purposeful action and experimentation are mutually exclusive.





> No pre-trip ideal that what theyre going to experience is more than just "feeling good"? No discipline to recognize that what they're experiencing is just another less known tangent of their psyche, not some 3 hour visit to heaven?



Yes. I'm sure we've both met and known our share of acidheads and speed junkies. They've often talked highly of their experiences, how it 'opened' them up, away from the limitations of our conscious reality.

But they were undisciplined junkies, that's all. How did we arrive at that conclusion? You know just as well as I do 



> I wonder if someone who's managed to get there on their own can then use acid (or any psychoactive drug) to facilitate later meditative needs? Would they then have the understanding and the respect for the experience to interpret it correctly? In a way that benefits their "normal" lives? Or are we too forgetfull, and we need to experience that effort each and every time, else we lose ourselves in the "good feeling" of the moment?



I'm not a fan of the 'better living through chemistry' mentality, for reasons peppered about this thread.

Every positive or negative experience, even when sober, can serve the purpose. If a person's turning to acid and the like to open up the possibilities, while consistently ignoring the conscious experience, they'd be better off without the drugs.

I generally avoid recreational drugs, save antidepressants. If "conscious reality" is enough to disturb me, then there's enough information for me to learn from. I don't wait for the "happy moments," to learn.



> This is probably going to be a little hard to explain, but how does a trance you experienced 2 days ago help with anxiety in the present? Is it just through a better understanding of how your brain reacts to a situation? The methodology behind the madness?



Yes - for reasons discussed with the meditation techniques and pattern recognition.



> I'd recognize my current state as the proper one, with no urge to remove myself from that mindset. How do you manage to force yourself into recognizing that suicidal hole as an improper one? That you're really not supposed to feel that way? Is it, in a way, like the opposite of a trip? You need to force yourself to realize it's just one extreme of the spectrum, not a new state of reality?



I simply remind myself that there are reasons why I continue to exist - that I have defined, not others - so if everything falls apart, that _essence_ to everything I perceive and do still remains, even if I've lost the form.

Or: I know why I'm alive, and why I bother, not simply that I am and do.

If you enjoyed being a social worker, for example, and the city you worked in was burned to the ground, you'd be sad. Maybe depressed. Possibly suicidal.

But, the essence of that work remains, and there are other cities to create a form for that essence with; that essence could even be applied to other potential jobs and situations, if jobs as a social worker are hard to cross. If everything goes horribly wrong - the form collapses - the material to breath life into another one remains, even if it's difficult to gather yourself together; but at least you'll know why you're taking the trouble to compose yourself. Think of your life and yourself like that.

Certainly takes time, though, to learn to see through an intense suicidal ideation or severe panic attacks. But, it requires an actual belief, not a recital of what makes you happy.

You know what's real - _to you_ - and what's an illusion, when the moment comes and you stop yourself from pulling the trigger.

Repeat the delusion, and it will be just a matter of time before you're cowering before the jury again. I'm not a fan of the "cry for help" camp. They're asking for a reason to live - they're not simply stating, "I know why I'm here, but I'm having difficulties getting on track and staying there." Even with these people, they may be suffering for the wrong reasons - rather, what they consider "happiness," is the cause, because it's irrational and unattainable.

A TV image, a string of words, which they've never translated. "Mikey likes it! But I don't. Why don't I, why can't I. Everyone else does. Or they seem to. Or that's what they tell me. The problem is me I guess."


----------



## Monolith (Sep 28, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> Do you want me to tell you what you should or shouldn't be doing and enjoying? I can't.
> 
> I can only point out the flaws in your own thinking, when you're talking about _your_ vision of happiness.
> 
> ...



"Goals" appear so distant and unattainable that to imagine them is seen as a waste of time.  Just like winning the lottery or becoming the most popular person in town would be great - but neither fantasy seems realistic.





			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> What if you're sitting down pondering the meaning of life for weeks on end, forgetting your responsibilities at work?



Apathy.  Resignation.  I can sustain what i am, but lack the motivation or drive to change/improve even the simplest thing.  Like in highschool - i passed all my classes with a 60.  Just enough to keep me on track to graduate, but never more.  Enough to keep the parents from sending me to a private school.  Enough to keep things the same, even though i agonized about how i wished they were different.  It's an odd juxtaposition, but thats how it was.




			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> If you're happy with what you're doing, in any stage, dealing with the consequences, fine. If you're happy on your ass, but not happy that you're starving, where did you go wrong?



Never happy, but always content to deal with the consequences.  When i'm not ready to deal, orgasmic images of suicide fly through my mind... not ideas of changing my situation.  It's as if life is worth living because its something to do... nothing more.  I'd rather kill myself than put any effort into what seems to be a trivial pursuit.




			
				Monolith said:
			
		

> How do you determine the "true" baseline for which to try and center your emotional spectrum?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yet how can you be sure that plan is correct?  Isn't it possible to subvert your plans subconsciously even if you're activly watching for that?  And what  _is_ a direction or plan?  The lay definition in this context is usually a career choice... obviously we're discussing things in a more abstract realm, but how do you correlate this abstract existence with the structured world humanity has built for itself?  Can you ever truly be happy in a society where that "in the moment" mentality rules?




			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> But if I want to be clear-minded and free of distraction, am I contradicting myself if everyone distracts and angers me?
> 
> Yes. Then I have to see what I'm reacting to, and if my response is appropriate. I couldn't answer, "Yes, it is appropriate," if it's followed with, "but I've been so upset for the past two weeks, I haven't been able to concentrate on my homework."
> 
> You can't fabricate an outlook on life or a system of belief. Don't confuse me on those terms. All I can point out is the steps to arrive at your own.



Can your outlook on life ever be free of misery when the only system of belief that resonates with you is one that makes you an outcast in society?  Further, is it possible to ever negate the impact that society/communication/sex has on our outlook?  To actually be happy with your esoteric beliefs *and* unphased by raw human insinctual behavior?





			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> How you view yourself and what you expect of yourself is a reflection of how you perceive others and the world around you. How you define intelligence, respect, and other related aspects of personality and worth determines how you act.
> 
> If people define "intelligence" as the human equivalent of an encyclopedia, it won't surprise me if you follow accordingly after tacitly accepting those terms.
> 
> We all act for our own good; few of us know how we've defined "good."



Awesome.  I feel like i'm being psychoanalyzed to the point of mind reading.  I can in fact think of a recent example of this behaviour - I added a good 12-15 books to my stack after reading a few posts in a book thread at Avant by a couple members i hold in high regard... people who have some of the knowledge, attitude and experience i suppose i wish i had.  It's so strange to consider yourself an independent entity, and then to witness instances like this where the mind appears to be nothing except an automaton... interpreting every stimulus into either a conscious or unconscious thoguth of how to get laid.  In that case, i was trying to give myself a characteristic that i felt was desirable.  Trying to make myself more appealing to a group i thought (think) is better than others.  Defining "good" in the context of acting for our own good could be debated for an eternity.  You've made me reel, Dante.




			
				Monolith said:
			
		

> How far do you think you can go?  And isnt the temptation to find out almost overwhelming?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Perhaps.  Some people spend decades seeing how far they can push their minds in the name of knowledge - they're the MD's and PhD's of the world.  While i haven't (yet) experienced a self-induced trance, the thought of meer hours separating me from deeper and deeper journeys through my own consciousness seems like the bargain of the millenium.







			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> All you could attempt to point out is the contradiction, if any, between my actions and expectations.
> 
> "I want to see how far I can go with this drug," followed by, "man, I'd really like to get out of this field and find better work." If this man spends too much time on cloud nine, it isn't likely that he'll be acting upon those goals; there's no relation between what he wants and what he does. Whatever he "does," is irrelevant, if we look at it in the context of what else he desires.
> 
> ...



So, for you, this exploration of consciousness is simply a means to an end - the act itself is of minimal interest... you simply want to use the knowledge gained from a trance to better yourself in the physical world.  The allure the "drug" holds loses its appeal when you realize you must eventually return to this reality...?




			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> I medicate myself with my goals in mind. I wouldn't use, say, LSD, just for the fuck of it - again and again. To see how far I can push it - push what? To where? Without any goal in mind?
> 
> Then you can critize my actions in relation to a goal.



What if the goal is to have the most complete understanding of your psyche as possible?  I mean, if your current goal is to use the trance experiences to better control your mood and stimulus response in this world, wouldnt a deeper jaunt through your mind elicit even better control and understanding of those things?





			
				Monolith said:
			
		

> I'd recognize my current state as the proper one, with no urge to remove myself from that mindset.  How do you manage to force yourself into recognizing that suicidal hole as an improper one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What reference do you have to tell yourself the reaction is wrong?  I can recall happier moments, but the allure is lost in that hole.  I recognize the brevity of those happy times.  I view my current state of mind as correct, and the happy times mere smokescreens my biological self creates in order to keep me interested in the mundane ideal of keeping me alive so i can propagate.  Sex.







			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> If you have a valid reason to feel a certain way after given circumstances, does it follow that your subsequent reaction in intensity and duration is proper?
> 
> Unless you're telling me and telling yourself that you're happy living in that hole, and that it serves a purpose. What are you reacting to? What are you thinking and feeling when you're suicidal?
> 
> ...



Just because a response makes me happy, why is it automatically correct?  How do you differentiate the abstract "good" from the concrete "good"?





			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> Feel that way, according to whom? For what reasons?
> 
> "I'm not supposed to be sad, because the man on the TV is happy with his large house and the white picket fence. I have those things, but I'm not happy."
> 
> ...



Again, the question becomes how do you extricate yourself from societies behavioral/philosophical code?  We've evolved to the point where it's nearly impossible to be happy without vindication/respect/acknowledgement.  What if you finally flesh out your own individual mental process - and find that it doesnt jive with societies?  What wins the battle to control your mood - your biology (pushing you to value social interaction, group think, and that "in the moment" mentality) or your unencumbered mind (pushing you to value independent thought, to ignore biological instinct, and to define your happiness on your specific traits only - not the generic human happiness we're all born with)?  Neither can be turned off... so will there always be that inner turmoil if you choose to explore the abstract?  If so, then wouldn't even "good" (abstract context, re: reading for yourself and not to mirror others) thought eventually be interpreted as an incorrect path, since your biology will never let you reach a true state of happiness by having to fight against it?




			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> I apologize if this is incoherent. I'm having a difficult time relating, because I've never thought in terms of what I'm supposed or not supposed to be feeling. And I'm just out of it mentally. There's a reason why I stayed away from the boards...



Not incoherent, but challenging (which i like).  I wrote this up throughout the day between classes, so if anything, props to you if you can "decode" it.  lol




			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> Will it? With a magic wand? No.



But, it stands to reason that if you can induce a biological process not known to be consciously controlled, then why would it be limited to just one aspect of the body?


----------



## Monolith (Sep 28, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> Something to think about when you're discussing "happiness," sadness, depression, or whatever mental state - even with yourself - or reading books speaking on such matters.
> 
> Reminds me of the women who'll wax poetic about love, and their current lover, soon after saying, "He doesn't listen, he doesn't respect me, he treats me like shit, and his eyes wander everywhere but about me."
> 
> Striving and suffering for a string of words, certainly not for ideas that are translated and understood in application and impact. The 40 year old executive who has all the ingredients for 'happiness', but wakes up one day wondering what's the damned point? Yep.



That's an awesome quote.  I used it's influence in my last post.  It didn't register right away, but now that it does, it's strikingly powerful.  In this context, i suppose it's just another reminder to define your emotions before you chase them, no?


----------



## Monolith (Sep 28, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> Is any of this making sense? I can keep going on and on, so you'd better tell me when to shut up if I start to ruin your journal.



It makes sense and i'm really enjoying it.  This journal has only been getting better with each post!





			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> Didn't address the following - misread several statements (going off on unrelated tangents), just out of it. My practice, I gather:
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Yeah, i think i got that from your last post.  I'm still a bit perplexed on how to define a good emotion/response, though.  Like with my last long post, how do you know if your body is "tricking" the independent mind?






			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> I'm not a fan of the 'better living through chemistry' mentality, for reasons peppered about this thread.
> 
> Every positive or negative experience, even when sober, can serve the purpose. If a person's turning to acid and the like to open up the possibilities, while consistently ignoring the conscious experience, they'd be better off without the drugs.
> 
> I generally avoid recreational drugs, save antidepressants. If "conscious reality" is enough to disturb me, then there's enough information for me to learn from. I don't wait for the "happy moments," to learn.



I suppose what i'm asking is... while i realize you wouldn't do this, do you think using a drug to reach that meditative trance (where otherwise you would meditate for 3 hours) would lessen the experiences ability to be learned from?







			
				Dante B. said:
			
		

> I simply remind myself that there are reasons why I continue to exist - that I have defined, not others - so if everything falls apart, that _essence_ to everything I perceive and do still remains, even if I've lost the form.
> 
> Or: I know why I'm alive, and why I bother, not simply that I am and do.
> 
> ...




So, why are you alive, Dante?  How do you find a reason to exist in such a homogenous world?  What have you found that's powerful enough to prevent suicide during a dark phase?  I'm asking generally/rhetorically - no need to give personal specifics.  In other words, through what process did you come to find these few, profound, life-shaping influences?  Do you have a goal, now?  Something you can strive for no matter your mood?


----------



## Monolith (Sep 28, 2004)

I guess it'd be good if i threw some actualy gym logs up in he'yah...

Training for 9/27:  Day B

*Squats* -
_Narrow stance (quads)_
215lbx3
215lbx3
215lbx3
215lbx3
215lbx4

_Wide stance (hips)_
225lbx5
235lbx4

*SLDL*
235lbx8
235lbx8

*Leg Press*
400lbx12
400lbx12
400lbx12

*Lying leg curl*
120lbx12

*Seated leg curl*
80lbx85s (s=seconds, timed set)

*Standing calf raise*
215lbx8
215lbx7
215lbx6
incorrect/fucked up tempo.  too slow on concentric.
45lbx50s (s=seconds, timed set)

---

Some nice increases for the quads and hams.  Four sets of 4 with 185lb on the squats last B day... four sets of 3 with 215lb this week.  On SLDL's, went 225lbx8x6 last cycle.  This cycle it was 235lbx8x8.  Leg press was 400lbx12x10x9 last week... went 12x12x12 this week.


----------



## Monolith (Sep 28, 2004)

Training for 9/28:  Day C

*BB curl* - 
100lbx2
100lbx2
100lbx2
100lbx2

*Seated BB mil press* -
125lbx6
125lbx5
125lbx4

*Alt DB curl* - 
45lbx3/4 (left/right)
45lbx3 

*Hammer machine mil press* -
40lbx85s (timed set)

*CG flat bench* - 
135lbx6
135lbx5.5

*Pushdowns* - 
70lbx100s

*Superset* - 
Decline situp - +65lb DBx4x1
Cable crunch - 150lbx6x6

---

Eh.  No real increases from the 23rd.  The exception is for shoulders, which went from 115lbx6x4 to 125lbx6x5.


----------



## PreMier (Sep 28, 2004)

My brain has been tickled, and I didnt have to visit Avant   Nice workout Mono.


----------



## Dante B. (Sep 30, 2004)

> "Goals" appear so distant and unattainable that to imagine them is seen as a waste of time. Just like winning the lottery or becoming the most popular person in town would be great - but neither fantasy seems realistic.



Certainly, because anything that's realistic as an end has an action correlate in the present; seeing a mountain in the distance, knowing the training, endurance and steps that are required in order to reach it.

So we have to define what the "goal" is. Indeed, for many, it's nothing more than the TV image.

"Noisy Polaroid faces with their tick tock clock voices."

But they don't know what the image captured meant and entailed; the beat of their 'drummer,' when they're stringing together a heap of meaningless words may very well be the rope they're going to hang by as they're led off a cliff.

For any goal that's real - that is, attainable, measurable - then you have to break it down into its constituent units of necessary action. That's hard to do, of course - often because the person hasn't a clue where they're going, setting aside the pie-in-the-sky dreamers who conceive of everything and nothing at once. I won't speak of them.



> Apathy. Resignation. I can sustain what i am, but lack the motivation or drive to change/improve even the simplest thing. Like in highschool - i passed all my classes with a 60. Just enough to keep me on track to graduate, but never more. Enough to keep the parents from sending me to a private school. Enough to keep things the same, even though i agonized about how i wished they were different. It's an odd juxtaposition, but thats how it was.



I was the same in high school. But, the problem wasn't me, as I'm capable of learning when it comes to abstract and fluid thought. I didn't consider what I was being sold to be an "education." A recital, perhaps, for even the teachers didn't seem to enjoy the Kool Aid and many of the 'top' students said otherwise but only in word; certainly wasn't evident in the patterns of thought and action.


As with anything, you have to see if the problem is you, or the environment. It's easy to beat yourself down to apathy if you're incapable of breaking the arousal threshold with the environment you're in, not certain either what it is that's capable of stimulating you.

If you're capable of seeing the distance step by step, then it's easier to tolerate the present without being thrown too far off course, or too far into apathy; the present circumstances aren't always conducive to the sought end, but if you know (somewhat) what you're aiming for, your spare time can be used for target practice -  for "self" preservation in both senses of self-preservation.

I'm not speaking of fools who are simply lazy, pathetic, and stupid. I'm talking to you - and if I didn't like you, I wouldn't bother. So don't ask, "How do I know if I'm simply a lazy fool." Every person has to figure that out on their own as they go along; intelligent people who are very much goal-driven and passionate won't be as easily led to give in, or buy into shallow promises from shadow souls.



> Never happy, but always content to deal with the consequences. When i'm not ready to deal, orgasmic images of suicide fly through my mind... not ideas of changing my situation. It's as if life is worth living because its something to do... nothing more. I'd rather kill myself than put any effort into what seems to be a trivial pursuit.



Content is generally translated to: I guess I have no choice. Guess it's better than nothing to deal with this shit, 'cause I have no choice otherwise.

But you never totally accept that. If you did, you wouldn't have those explosive episodes where you're trying to find something more in something that's not.

Quoted earlier, I have a disdain for words and phrases - simply because people are throwing slabs of concrete at each other as though each block has the same impact and meaning to everyone; often it has no true meaning to the offending party throwing said block. It was simply inherited, and all they have to show for those bricks is a mental dung hut.

"Suicidal," for many," is revealed with: "The world would be a better place without me."

That's translates to: please tell me why I should be here. Give me a reason to live.


I detest those people; I don't consider them human. That's not what suicidal means for me, and I don't see that in you either. Rather, it's very much explosive in nature; apathy isn't defeat, it's self-preservation in the face of uncontrollable impulses which can't be channeled out in present form. There's only the future potential, which can be realized step by step - but it's hard to see the steps and take pleasure in them.

Which is to say: you actually do know why you're here, you to have goals which are real, to you - not crackhead goals of mountains that exist only in the minds of those lazy enough to conceive of something that isn't real as a mask for an inability and unwillingness to conquer anything that is.



> Yet how can you be sure that plan is correct? Isn't it possible to subvert your plans subconsciously even if you're activly watching for that? And what is a direction or plan? The lay definition in this context is usually a career choice... obviously we're discussing things in a more abstract realm, but how do you correlate this abstract existence with the structured world humanity has built for itself? Can you ever truly be happy in a society where that "in the moment" mentality rules?



So many what ifs. Vieope brought up the "problem of other minds" in another thread - solipsism. I've been thinking about that more and more recently. As in: I can paint a picture for someone, and it may or may not set. But that's all I can essentially do. Intuitively, people who are self-aware can recognize parallel elements in others.

Why do I bring this up? I think you know the answers to those questions; the problem arises when you're wondering what you can do to reanimate yourself in a present situation where the world is dead to you. If you were totally clueless - read, not self-aware and intelligent (as I define it), then I wouldn't be able to say anything of meaning.

A direction or plan? Something you can conceive, where the future and present are joined process by process - step by step - with intention and action understood; action and intention are meaningless without a comprehension of relevant factors, and consequences.

"Correct." In what sense? That it's something I desire, or something that can be accomplished? This gets back to everything discussed. A direction isn't a guarantee - often you'll fail. But if you're using a model, not unlike a scientist's model for testing a hypothesis, then you can assess what went right or wrong if you succeed or fail.

Unconsciously? Sure. But what leads a person to unconsciously subvert a plan? Often, wanting too many things, or even a few things, without an understanding of consequences.

"I want to be successful in this business I built from the ground up. But I'm investing too much of my time in it. I want to go out and date women. My friends have girlfriends and wives. But I also want to do this. But I kinda want the girls too."

Among other examples. But "self aware" means awareness of competing influences, and the consequences each one entails. People who are highly self-aware aren't merely aware of base or shallowly defined "influences" - as in, "I'd like to have a lot of money, and a nice job, and respect."

Then, it doesn't matter as much what society is doing; it only matters in the sense of trying to get something done, seeing who does or doesn't fit into the plan - if they're helping you to learn (doesn't have to be with those who agree), or if they serve no purpose but to impede you.

That isn't to say you won't occasionally suffer for it; it's only to mean that you are aware of why you're suffering, at a moment, and if that consequence pales in comparison to a higher possibility that you've established.

With the "structured world," we've already discussed that with crackhead dreams. If you're aiming for something that isn't neatly assimilated into an exiting structure, then it's your awareness of the why and hows of that structure which will enable you to build your model accordingly.

No different than understanding psychology in general: if you understand society in general, then it's no matter an issue of disagreeing or suffering. If you see what's wrong, or rather, what can be better, then you can devise a plan. 

I doubt I'm telling you anything you haven't previously thought of; if anything, I'm merely reminding you. If I actually had to explain any of this in actuality (taking into account that I'm giving a piss poor explanation in my current state), as though you were totally clueless and unaware, then you'd simply scratch your head. 

Or say, "that's great, I totally see it!." Soon to forget; you can't assimilate something that isn't real to you, something you weren't previously aware of on some level. But, a good reminder often serves well as a source of inspiration and clarity.



> Can your outlook on life ever be free of misery when the only system of belief that resonates with you is one that makes you an outcast in society? Further, is it possible to ever negate the impact that society/communication/sex has on our outlook? To actually be happy with your esoteric beliefs and unphased by raw human insinctual behavior?



Outcast? To whom? 

If you're blindly striving for goals you aren't capable of defining - to yourself - then you'll learn to suffer for equally vague reasons.

As we've said, if you've build a model and are capable of recognizing the relation between intent and action, goals and consequence, then you're also capable of explaining your perspectives to others; occasionally, even influencing them, if only to a minor extent.

In the process, you may be positively influenced as well. You aren't eliminating "raw" instinctual behavior and impulses - you're guiding them, channeling them.

Think of it this way:

If you look at a woman's face, concentrating on her eyes, all of her facial features are pulled into that focused perspective. She looks different - everything flows, although in another direction from one if you concentrated on her lips instead.

If she lets her hair down, or pulls it up - you encounter the same phenomena. You're staring at the same woman, but each focused perspective automatically arranges her companion features.

I think of it no differently with life and goals. When I'm focused on one aspect of life - as I conceive of "life," my life, as I want it - the other features are drawn in. Not eliminated.

Then, it's not a desire for "sex" - it's sex with a woman. It's not a desire to be with woman - it's an acknowledgment of the type of woman. Same with friends, same with respect - anything.



> It's so strange to consider yourself an independent entity, and then to witness instances like this where the mind appears to be nothing except an automaton... interpreting every stimulus into either a conscious or unconscious thoguth of how to get laid. In that case, i was trying to give myself a characteristic that i felt was desirable. Trying to make myself more appealing to a group i thought (think) is better than others.



Independence isn't freedom from all influences, pernicious and otherwise. Independence is failing and learning in order to succeed. The only mistake is to assume that you can guard yourself from all mistakes.

Progress is never linear. If anything, it's the breaks in the line that force people to reconsider the integrity of the direction.

Purpose and experimentation aren't mutually exclusive. Only you'll know when something no longer serves your interest, as you choose to define it.

For example, arguing with the same group of people over a period of time forced me to think only on their terms, but never beyond. If I was dealing with a fool, I became a fool; with intelligent people, if I learned but didn't move on, I was stuck at their level. Never further.



> Perhaps. Some people spend decades seeing how far they can push their minds in the name of knowledge - they're the MD's and PhD's of the world. While i haven't (yet) experienced a self-induced trance, the thought of meer hours separating me from deeper and deeper journeys through my own consciousness seems like the bargain of the millenium.



And if a person desired to spend life's remainder getting high, you wouldn't be able to persuade them otherwise. If they had a distinct goal, then they'd be more likely to recognize a contraction - if any, as they saw it in relation to a goal - on their own or with another's persuasion.

But, we've discussed this.



> So, for you, this exploration of consciousness is simply a means to an end - the act itself is of minimal interest... you simply want to use the knowledge gained from a trance to better yourself in the physical world. The allure the "drug" holds loses its appeal when you realize you must eventually return to this reality...?



Consciousness is consciousness of something - something before me. Something before me is a reflection of what's inside me. So, I'm not drawing a distinction between the internal and physical.

I'm aiming for symmetry - not balance, not moderation. If I see something on the outside that I'm not presently capable of handling, then I have to correct myself internally. If I see something internally that I can't put to form in the physical, I have to create a vehicle for it externally.

Like the mountain, it's simply a way for me to assess if the mountain is real, or a delusion; if real, than a way to recognize the requisite steps.

And to experience pleasure in those steps. You wouldn't experience pleasure in a movement if you likened it to crawling instead.



> What if the goal is to have the most complete understanding of your psyche as possible? I mean, if your current goal is to use the trance experiences to better control your mood and stimulus response in this world, wouldnt a deeper jaunt through your mind elicit even better control and understanding of those things?



Yes - if you're defining "understanding" as would we with knowledge: application, action. The mountain, if you prefer.

I endeavor to understand so to achieve symmetry. Could I "understand" myself, without relating it to the environment around me? And the environment without a concept of self? There's no distinction - consciousness is clarification, not absolute governance.



> What reference do you have to tell yourself the reaction is wrong? I can recall happier moments, but the allure is lost in that hole. I recognize the brevity of those happy times. I view my current state of mind as correct, and the happy times mere smokescreens my biological self creates in order to keep me interested in the mundane ideal of keeping me alive so i can propagate. Sex.



I dealt with sex, albeit briefly. However, again, once you focus on one feature of life, the companion elements are drawn in; they aren't eliminated, but channeled and redefined.

Is the reaction wrong? All of this goes into the model; if you don't have a model, there's no point in discussing any of this. "Hey crackhead, think of it this way" - "dude, like, I know this is the right way, so shut the fuck up."

But that's not you. What are you focusing on? What were you reacting to? What defined the intensity of that reaction?

If I want to achieve something, but a reaction is burdening me, then something is wrong. Perhaps I was wrong in what I defined as the goal; you can suffer for what you consider the good.

If I had a model, but wasn't consistently aware of it, then all influences and phenomena were blindly colliding and competing for my attention; but they couldn't be prioritized and restructured.



> Just because a response makes me happy, why is it automatically correct? How do you differentiate the abstract "good" from the concrete "good"?



Who said such a thing? 

A response is a cue, nothing more, nothing automatic in the process of definition. It's only an axe.

You can suffer for what you consider the good, if you haven't defined the "good" - as you see in - in relation to goals, consequences, and everything we've discussed.

"I was happy when I hung out with this chick. She was also a ditz. At least she distracted me from the sorrows in my life at that time."

A response is a hint, not an answer. The abstract versus the concrete? The crackhead mountain or the mountain that I'm simply incapable of devising a personal plan to reach?

Abstract is in relation to something. I wouldn't consider, say, the castle in the sky, as an abstract worthy of discussion. I don't consider "good job, nice house, trophy wife" a concrete; a given, something that just "is," without an understanding of the factors that went into that perception - and why people bought it.

The concrete "good":

"I met this girl. I liked her. She was fun to be around."

Abstract:

"I met this girl. I liked her. But she also wanted a family, and she wanted to live the life movie star. As much as I liked her, or at least some aspects of her, I realized that my goals and hers necessarily precluded a meaningful long term relationship."


If your goal in life was simply: make money, have a nice house, have a nice girl, etc., then you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.



> Again, the question becomes how do you extricate yourself from societies behavioral/philosophical code? We've evolved to the point where it's nearly impossible to be happy without vindication/respect/acknowledgement.



Really? We have? Or you have, along with most as they've shabbily defined respect and worth.

But you haven't blindly accept it or rejected it; blind rejection is the ultimate foolishness. Rather, it's simply difficult to manage when you see other people receiving positive enforcement even though you aren't content to eat that enforcement as if it were positive sustenance; but it would be nice to have your craving slaked, as they do, without feeling as though you were starving to death. You may not desire the same things as other people, perhaps for the right reasons - but, even intelligent people often think: "It would still be nice to feel as they do, nevertheless."

As said, we're not speaking of extricating ourselves from anything, as though we merely see something, disagree, lose sleep over it, and have an apoplectic fit. If you understand the code, as it relates to you - as you wish to change it - then the acknowledgement of the whys and hows provide a map for action; ways of approach, persuasion - impact and influence.



> What if you finally flesh out your own individual mental process - and find that it doesnt jive with societies? What wins the battle to control your mood - your biology (pushing you to value social interaction, group think, and that "in the moment" mentality) or your unencumbered mind (pushing you to value independent thought, to ignore biological instinct, and to define your happiness on your specific traits only - not the generic human happiness we're all born with)?
> 
> Neither can be turned off... so will there always be that inner turmoil if you choose to explore the abstract? If so, then wouldn't even "good" (abstract context, re: reading for yourself and not to mirror others) thought eventually be interpreted as an incorrect path, since your biology will never let you reach a true state of happiness by having to fight against it?



Already explained: we're not talking about ignoring anything. We're simply redefining it - the woman's face when viewed with a focus on her eyes, instead of emphasis on her lips. 

Is it easy? No. It's easier when you know what you're aiming and suffering for - symmetry is a continual process. But a process isn't anything without a recognition of distance and steps. I view emotions no differently, as they relate to the human experience; measurment, which doesn't exist without a defined standard and an end to achieve.



> Neither can be turned off... so will there always be that inner turmoil if you choose to explore the abstract? If so, then wouldn't even "good" (abstract context, re: reading for yourself and not to mirror others) thought eventually be interpreted as an incorrect path, since your biology will never let you reach a true state of happiness by having to fight against it?



If you're suffering for the TV image, or even aiming for the abstract without realizing how much emphasis you've placed on those Polaroid snapshots, then you'll never find peace.

I'm not saying the model makes all emotions and impulses automatically drawn into a hierarchical system. It's simply easier, more efficient, where the alterative is absolute failure.

Trust me, I have my share of issues, most of which I conceal; trust me, I could be far worse than I already am. But, that model and subsequent process of organization enables me to restructure my internal and external circumstances; symmetry.



> But, it stands to reason that if you can induce a biological process not known to be consciously controlled, then why would it be limited to just one aspect of the body?



This is a common logical error:

People blindly defined that which is consciously in control, or capable of being consciously governed and to what extent.

(Certain) martial artists learn to control their pulse and physiological reaction to stressors. Does it follow that one should be able to consciously affect the size and strength of blood vessels and the integrity of the heart?

No. Indirectly, perhaps.

What people often describe as impossible is often a misunderstanding; what the remainder describe as possible is often pure nonsense.

And everyone's confused in the middle. Can you exert control over some aspects of your brain in a direct fashion, akin to the mechanism of certain drugs? Yes. Am I saying that you can will or meditate a brain tumor away? No.

People have to define what they think is possible, and why, the same with impossible.



> I used it's influence in my last post. It didn't register right away, but now that it does, it's strikingly powerful. In this context, i suppose it's just another reminder to define your emotions before you chase them, no?



I was flipping through my copy of The Book of Lies that I found under the couch; figured  quoting it would serve well in the discussion.

Sure, many people have read similar expressions of thought - people "know" this. Few certainly believe it. What you "know," isn't what you can say. It's what you can see and apply.

And yes, you're correct. Defining any mental state or desire - anything you see in the world or in yourself, _to yourself_. One perception flows into another within the model.

Another one from that book - a meditation:



> Witch-moon that turnest all the streams to blood
> I take this hazel rod, and stand, and swear
> An Oath - beneath the blasted oak and bare
> 
> ...



This is one of the few poems that holds meaning to me; that is, something that goes beyond sounding pretty - something that sticks.

_The gods upon the Titans shower
Their high intolerable scorn;
But no god knoweth in what hour
A new Prometheus may be born.
Courage!
Man to his doom goes driving down;
A crown of thorns is still a crown! 
_





> Yeah, i think i got that from your last post. I'm still a bit perplexed on how to define a good emotion/response, though. Like with my last long post, how do you know if your body is "tricking" the independent mind?



Yes, that can happen. The chicken or the egg. However, once a model is established (already explained, so will save time but not doing so again), it's easy to separate the various influences competing for your attention. Not even attention, but rather, competing for a spot in the definition.

It's easy for your body to respond in such a manner that doesn't seem to have a brain origin, if you're generally acting and reacting - little more.

Don't think of consciousness and independence as anything that's automatic or inherently correct: it's merely a scientist's model for testing a hypothesis, and progressively developing it to achieve a desirable result in whatever field they're chosen.



> I suppose what i'm asking is... while i realize you wouldn't do this, do you think using a drug to reach that meditative trance (where otherwise you would meditate for 3 hours) would lessen the experiences ability to be learned from?



No, not by necessity. The essence is merely everything we've discussed regarding action and intention, and all in between.

My problem with the "better living through chemistry" mantra, or the "mind opening experience," is that "better" and "opening" is only relevant in the context of moving in a direction. 

The experience is only as good as the person experiencing it - the person defines the experience. No different than your waking moments, or the hallucinations of dreaming. Dreaming serves a purpose - it serves little to someone with little on the inside to interpret it and find use for it; actually, the little on the inside determines the richness of the experience.

I wouldn't expect a severely retarded child to rival Dali.

A brief aside:

Dream "interpretation" is preposterous. I think of dreams as an unconscious virtual reality. There's a difference between thinking of death - whether yours or another's - and experiencing it. What's "real," is what's experienced - felt - when seeing and learning.

It's hard to learn from your unconscious moments when you can't see them or feel them. That's why people enjoy hallucinogens, and that also what accounts for bad trips. I think of dreaming no differently, and I use my sleep accordingly. That's also why I don't believe in methods aimed at achieving lucid dreaming; vivid dreaming, perhaps, but not lucid.



> So, why are you alive, Dante? How do you find a reason to exist in such a homogenous world? What have you found that's powerful enough to prevent suicide during a dark phase? I'm asking generally/rhetorically - no need to give personal specifics. In other words, through what process did you come to find these few, profound, life-shaping influences? Do you have a goal, now? Something you can strive for no matter your mood?



I don't see the world as homogenous at all. I certainly see many people who don't know why they're acting; I also see people who are confused, and are worth salvaging. I'm in the latter camp, so I'm also capable of recognizing those who are capable of influencing me in the right form; influence isn't categorically bad, and those who speak blindly of "influences" are those who aren't capable of being positively affected. There's nothing positive within them that's consciously governed; mere action/reaction, stimulus/response.

I'll answer the only relevant question (the one which serves a purpose to answer in a  discussion: The process

Once I built a model with some end in sight - even though I've consistently changed the end sought, in form, not essence - I was no longer being blindly thrown around without any rhythm to what I perceived and acted upon. I was just seeing, doing, acting, reacting, with fleeting states of joy and constant moments of grief.

Part of that is due to my neurochemistry. I said part, and that part is merely a channel, not simply a cause. I have a prescription for lithium sitting here, but I'm not going to bother with it. Answering anything specifically wouldn't do anything for anyone - part of the problem of 'the other minds.' However, if someone is capable of recognizing a desirable or similar pattern - a model - then a person can make use of it. So I only explain processes when it comes to myself, nothing more.

Simply, in essence, I enjoy the experiences of pleasure that I've felt. I also enjoyed the thought of devising a plan to realize those experiences on a relatively consistent basis. If I was suffering (or experiencing pleasure) for the wrong reason (as I saw it, for reasons defined), then I had to reassess my goals or the model I was using.

Simply, I enjoy being the scientist in his lab. Other occasionally get to have a hand in the experiment, and that's doubly enjoyable. If someone isn't capable of serving me to that end (and me to theirs - good relationships are symbiotic), then my joy being in the lab eventually overwhelms any negative response resulting from that person.

When I'm on the verge of imploding, I simply recognize that I no longer have a form to sustain the essence; it overwhelms me. But I go over the models I've used in the past, remember the joy I experiencing when employing them and consistently reproducing testable results.

Like many, if you simply experience, even if it's pleasure spread over a healthy stretch of time, there's no way to renew when you never had a model to begin with. Do I know what my goal is, at least for now? Yes. Will I ever get there? I don't know. I don't even care. I just take the steps however small to get there, and take joy in that, even if every remaining aspect of my life is thoroughly fucked up.

But, you won't be able to find joy in anything - or work your way of that hole - without a concept of distance and smaller units of measurement. If you only see the distance - assuming it's not the crackhead's mountain - then everything in the present is worthless. The arousal threshold will never be reached without drugs, and even with drugs that high can only be sustained for so long; every alcoholic has his moment of clarity.

A pile of nonsense? Probably. However, sometimes all it takes is a new way to look at something that's already before you - a way to think of it, recognition in increments, hierarchical thought and focus; the other features will fall in place, as will your reactions to them.

And that's my rant 

On another note:

Getting back to other minds, all methods of communicating abstracts are ways which we can interpret the mind of another individual. Perfectly? No. But what's "perfection," other than two elements which are symbiotic in their interaction. Everything doesn't have to be understood, as it is, "in itself."

Language, unfortunately, rarely achieves the purpose for reasons mentioned. We're just throwing blocks of concrete at each other, as it seems. Music, like language, serves a purpose. I posted this over at AL several weeks back..

Don't bother with The Dissolution of Eternity, check out the other two. Simply beautiful music - it reminds me of everything that's good, not merely distracting me from everything that's not.


----------



## Dante B. (Sep 30, 2004)

PreMier said:
			
		

> My brain has been tickled.



It's more of a cock tease. Give me two dollars and a Snickers bar and I'll be your full service discount bitch.


----------



## Dante B. (Sep 30, 2004)

While I'm still in a ranting mood:

I want to cover sex again, briefly, as it's rarely adequately addressed.

Sex _is_ the essence of life and being. Not in the manner the Bacchanalians speak of it - as they would speak of drugs - nor in the manner of the quasi-stoics, as they would speak of responsibility and fidelity; the 'anti-establishment folks versus the twenty-year plan to happiness individuals. 

The two cheeks of the same ass, with both sides peering into the same hole.

Seeing the environment around, applying it to you, you to it - creating something more to sustain a higher level of humanity - finding a mate who is compatible with your conception of life, reproducing to pass a part of you down.

Life is sexual, not in the perverted sense that people generally conceive of sex now - blindly fucking around, a perverse and submissive will to power; make no mistake, people who are often perceived as power hungry and unscrupulous are submissive in nature and infinitely easy to manipulate (as Machiavelli knew, as people who read him forget).  I don't separate the "intellectual" from the emotional - you can't draw a distinction when you're looking at life as it is: experiencing, learning, creating and reproducing. I don't respect men who blindly attempt to dominate and stand above the pack; I don't respect women who find those traits desirable.

Simply put:

Once you establish the features of life that you're focused on, sexual impulses and mate attraction will be reorganized accordingly.

It's no longer "women" - instead, it's "what woman would be compatible with this conception of life." Without a concept of the feature that you've defined as a focal point, you're simply left with impulses.

Those impulses of that primal sexual drive are never eliminated, they're merely guided; consciousness is clarification, eventual hierarchical organization of influence and impulse.

It's easier to recognize what you don't want - what isn't desirable, beneficial - once you establish that focus. "Women want a guy who's confident, who's successful," etc.

But how are they defining confident and successful? And how are you defining it? If their definition of "confident" eventually amounts to arrogant - as it is, as they act and choose, not as they speak about it with words - then what is it to you if you're prefer calm, analytical confidence with some vision which doesn't have a ready-made correlate in society, but something you can work toward? Or even if that vision is already socially established, with the average woman seeing the surface but not the essence of your devotion? And a woman who's attracted to that?

I'm not telling you anything new - shit, I'm not even covering any of this as well as I'd like. However, it's merely a reminder. 

Once you clarify your definitions - not just in words, but in perception - your impulses are directed and integrated. A woman, or women in general, may throw you off track. It's especially true when you're seeing the men around you. However, if those "men" aren't the men you'd like to fashion yourself after, then you have to understand and accept that your life - options, choices - won't be the same.

It will be different. But it will be yours - anything else or less leading you to misery. My conception of the "alpha male," or a man in general is more Michael Landon in Little House on the Prairie , not Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon, not Orson Wells in Citizen Kane before his fall. Quiet and contemplative - intensely loyal - not blindly rebellious, obsequiously content, or submissively domineering (that's not a contradiction, as you know - men with that unscrupulous and blind will to power are the easiest to manipulate, contrary to conventional wisdom).

And if a woman is attracted to personality characteristics of men such as that (in action, perception - not with hollow words), so what? And if I'm thrown off track, what reestablishes my focus and reintegrates my impulses?

It's infinitely easier to find the appropriate channels for those impulses - the entire essence of life - once you've defined your terms. Once those terms are defined, it's easier to see who fits the definition, instead of being blinded and tossed around between various influences.

And if you don't find suitable mates and friends in the present? Isn't it easier when you know what you're looking for, knowing that what's available before you would never suit you, regardless of what others say and have? Once those terms are defined, the right people stand out when you encounter them - and you can recognize their usefulness to you, which transcends "I don't want to be lonely" and "I want to get laid and be the alpha male in the pack."

Nothing new, nothing coherent - but, you'll recognize it for what it is. It wouldn't be a mere reminder if I was speaking to an idiot.

I'd rather be the hopeless romantic than the ass who slanders his wife behind his back, having neither a life nor a mate that he enjoys; and I'd rather be alone than be with a woman who's attracted to the modern conception of the alpha male, and who's always suffered for it and brought others down along with her.

And, I'd rather whack it then rack my head over a woman just for sex - if she's a perversion of that primal essence of life, instead of the embrace of it for all that it entails.  All of this applies to women when viewing men, too, when the coin is flipped - it just happens that you're a guy  I'm not fond of men in general, that pigheaded dick in hand will to power.

My terms are defined, and I'm not above being thrown off course - but, my personal dictionary takes care of that in the end if one of my terms needs counseling. 

But, you've already thought of this  It all comes down to sex, rightly so; just not in the way it's typically perceived and acted upon, which, unsurprisingly, isn't any different than how life as a whole is perceived and acted upon.


----------



## Monolith (Oct 1, 2004)

I just read over your posts quickly, Dante... more "cool shit." 

It's prolly gonna take me a day or so to digest everything, but hopefully ill have s'more incoherent rambling for you to translate sometime this weekend.


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## Monolith (Oct 1, 2004)

Training for 9/30:  Day A

*Decline BB press* -
265lbx2
265lbx2
265lbx1
265lbx1
265lbx1

*Reverse BB row* -
185lbx6.5
185lbx5.5
*been doing these with back about 15 degrees from horizontal with the floor...

*Incline DB press* -
85lbx3
85lbx2
85lbx2
85lbx3
*got a bad kickback for the middle 2 sets

*WG pulldowns* -
160lbx10.5
160lbx8

*Flat DB press* -
55lbx12

[/b]CG cable row[/b] -
100lbx65s

*Front wrist curl* -
40lbx8
40lbx4

------

Chest and back had slight increases this cycle.  Incline DBs felt good... 5lbs more and nearly the same reps.  I need to practice kicking those fuckers back, though.


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## Vieope (Oct 1, 2004)

_%6e%6f%72%6d%61%74%69%76%65  %48%65%64%6f%6e%69%73%6d 
_


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## Vieope (Oct 1, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> Vieope brought up the "problem of other minds" in another thread - solipsism. I've been thinking about that more and more recently.


_Interesting puzzle, isn´t it? _


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## Dante B. (Oct 1, 2004)

It has always been interesting to observe people over the years, and the problems inherent in the channels of communication. It's only been as of recently, however, that I realized the implications of it when it comes to _my_ communication with individuals and transfer of thought; in turn when I'm receiving information, too.

As it goes with the string of words, people are incapable of meaningful communication unless the terms are defined. People have a tendency to draw parallels where they don't exist when looking at others in relation to themselves, or themselves in relation to others; abstract mediums for pattern weaving and transmission have been reduced to meaningless concretes which prevent people from relating and learning. 

But two dollars and a Snickers bar still tells me everything I need to know about someone when I'm workin' it on the corner.


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## Monolith (Oct 2, 2004)

Training for 10/2:  Day B

*Squats* -
255lbx3
255lbx3
255lbx3
255lbx2
255lbx3
255lbx2
255lbx2

*SLDL* -
245lbx7
245lbx6

*Leg press* -
440lbx12
440lbx12
440lbx10

*Lying leg curl* -
130lbx12

*Seated leg curl* -
80lbx65s

Skipped calf work, was way more tired than usual.

---

Strength was up quite a bit on the squats.  Sets of 215 for 3 turned into sets of 255 for 3.  Some of it had to do with nailing down the correct tempo, though.  The long TUT and short RI's on the leg press nearly made me black out.  Still, there was a 40lb increase for nearly the same reps.


----------



## yellowmoomba (Oct 2, 2004)

Mono - you are getting strong!!!   Good job on the squats!


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## Monolith (Oct 5, 2004)

Training for 10/3:  Day C

*BB curl* - 
105lbx2
105lbx2
105lbx2
105lbx2

*Seated BB mil press* -
135lbx4.5
125lbx5
125lbx4

*Alt seated DB curl* -
45lbx4
45lbx4

*Hammer machine mil press* -
40lbx100s

*CG flat bench* - 
135lbx8
135lbx8

*Rope pushdowns* -
70lbx45s

*Superset* -
_Decline situp_ - +50lbx4  +25lbx6
_Cable crunch_ - 150lbx6  150lbx6

---------------

Some small increases here and there.


----------



## Monolith (Oct 5, 2004)

Training for 10/5:  Day A

*Decline BB press* - 
275lbx2
275lbx2
275lbx1
275lbx1
275lbx1

*Reverse BB row* - 
185lbx8
185lbx7.5

*Incline DB press* -
90lbx3
90lbx3
90lbx3

*WG pulldowns* - 
160lbx10
160lbx9

*Flat DB press* - 
55lbx13

*CG cable row* - 
100lbx70s

*Front wrist curl* - 
40lbx8
40lbx7

-------------

Wow.  Strength skyrockets yet again.  Just 5 days ago i did 265 for 2,2,1,1,1.  Today it was 275 for the same reps.  15 days ago, on the 20th of September, i only managed 225 for 6 reps.  Thats an estimated max of 266lbs.  275 for 2 is an estimated max of 285.  So, thats a 19 lb increase in 2 weeks....

All i can say, is... cool.


----------



## PreMier (Oct 5, 2004)

Nice.  Looks like your program is paying off.

How is school going?


----------



## PreMier (Oct 5, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> It's more of a cock tease. Give me two dollars and a Snickers bar and I'll be your full service discount bitch.


----------



## Monolith (Oct 6, 2004)

PreMier said:
			
		

> How is school going?



Well, i can say one thing with certainty:  i took too many classes.


----------



## yellowmoomba (Oct 10, 2004)

Monolith said:
			
		

> Training for 10/5:  Day A
> 
> *Decline BB press* -
> 275lbx2
> ...




Looks like this new program is working well for you!!      Nice increases!!!


----------



## tucker01 (Oct 10, 2004)

I'd Say

God Damn Mono.  Good Job on the Squats. Quite an improvement


----------



## Monolith (Oct 13, 2004)

Thanks YM, Iain.

Sorry to anyone who was following this, ive been slacking on the updates.  Still hittin the gym, though.


----------



## Monolith (Oct 13, 2004)

Training for 10/12:  Day B

*Squats* - 
275lbx2
275lbx2
275lbx1
275lbx1
275lbx1
275lbx1
275lbx1

*SLDL* - 
260lbx7
260lbx6

*Leg Press* -
470lbx12
470lbx12
470lbx9.5

*Seated leg curl* -
90lbx65s

*Standing calf raise* - 
180lbx8
180lbx8

---

Strength is still improvin'.  I'm thinking i'll go one more week or so before i switch emphasis.


----------



## tucker01 (Oct 14, 2004)

Why would you switch? and to what?


----------



## Monolith (Oct 14, 2004)

IainDaniel said:
			
		

> Why would you switch? and to what?



Per Lyle's periodization writeup, the idea is to switch the training emphasis in 4-6 week macrocycles, as part of a larger mesocycle.

For example:  For the past 4 weeks, ive been prioritizing leg strength.  Low reps, long rests, heavy weight.  I've only been doing maintenance work in the hypertrophy ranges (fast twitch fibers, sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, etc).  Now i'm going to move into an emphasis on mid-range hypertrophy, or full hypertrophy, with maintenance work in the other ranges.  The idea of the strength macrocycle is mainly neural adaptation for heavier weights, allowing heavier than normal weights to be used for the higher rep hypertrophy-specific macrocycles.

Anyway, if you check out the Mind and Muscle mags, Lyle has a few writeups that explain it a lot better than i could.


----------



## tucker01 (Oct 14, 2004)

Yeah I have them saved on my hard drive just haven't gotten around to reading them.

I guess with all the progress you have made in the squat,  I didn't see a reason to change anything until you hit a sticking point.  

Maybe I should read the article.


----------



## Monolith (Oct 15, 2004)

Did bi's, tri's, shoulders, abs yesterday.  Day C.  Didn't write it down.  Everything is weak as shit, but still slowly improving.  Day A - chest/back/grip - today.


----------



## Monolith (Oct 15, 2004)

Training for 10/15:  Day A

*Decline BB press* -
275lbx2
275lbx2
275lbx2
275lbx1
275lbx1

*Bent BB row* - 
205lbx8
205lbx8
*done as suggested by Mudge and others, bent only partially at the waist.  felt good.

*DB incline press* - 
95lbx2
95lbx2
95lbx0
85lbx1
*was dead tired by the third set, could barely kick the db's up

*WG pulldowns* - 
160lbx10
160lbx8

*Flat DB press* -
55lbx12

*CG cable row* - 
100lbx70s

*Front wrist curl* - 
50lbx5
50lbx4

------

Eh.  Strength is up mildly.


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Oct 15, 2004)

monolith, your never around anymore?


----------



## P-funk (Oct 16, 2004)

myCATpowerlifts said:
			
		

> monolith, your never around anymore?




He doesn't like us.


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## myCATpowerlifts (Oct 16, 2004)

P-funk said:
			
		

> He doesn't like us.



I guess not


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## Monolith (Oct 17, 2004)

haha

I love everyone.   I just dont have as much free time to spend sittin in front of the computer as i did over the summer.


----------



## Monolith (Oct 17, 2004)

Training for 10/17:  Day C

*Squats* - 
lots of warmups...
255lbx1
275lbx1
295lbx2
295lbx2
295lbx2
295lbx1
295lbx1

*SLDL* - 
265lbx6
265lbx6

*Leg Press* - 
490lbx12
490lbx11
490lbx10

*Seated leg curl* - 
90lbx80s

*Seated calf raise* - 
135lbx8
135lbx7

--------------------

Nice strength increase on the squats... last leg day, just 4 days ago, i only managed 275 for 2 sets of 2.  Today was 295 for 3 sets of 2....

Everything else went up a bit as well, but nothing spectacular.


----------



## JerseyDevil (Oct 18, 2004)

Haven't visited your journal lately Mono.  Your strength is going up quite nicely  .


----------



## Monolith (Oct 18, 2004)

Yeah, but so is my weight.  Ive been indulging a bit too much... i'm up to 230lbs.


----------



## PreMier (Oct 18, 2004)

Damn, I wish I weighed 230..


----------



## Monolith (Oct 18, 2004)

Hopefully when _you_ get to 230 you look a bit better than _my_ 230, though.


----------



## Monolith (Oct 18, 2004)

Training for 10/18:  Day C

*BB Curl* - 
105lbx3
105lbx3
105lbx3
105lbx2

_Superset with_:
*Decline situps* - 
bwx15
+45lbx10
+45lbx9

*Seated BB mil press* - 
135lbx5
135lbx5
135lbx4.5

*Alt seated DB curl* - 
50lbx4
50lbx4

*Hammer machine mil press* - 
50lbx85s

*Cable curl* - 
90lbx14

*CG flat BB press* - 
165lbx7
165lbx5

*Rope pushdowns* - 
70lbx45s

*Cable crunch* - 
160lbx12
160lbx12

-----------

Bi's are a bit stronger.  Nothing spectacular.  Shoulder strength was way up, though.  Only got 135lb for 4,3,3 last time.  Today it went 5,5,4.  It's pretty suprising, too, considering im only doing like 4 sets of shoulder work a week.

CG bench was up a bit... but i screwed up the tempo on the first set, which is why i got 7.  Correct tempo on the second set only got me 5.


----------



## yellowmoomba (Oct 19, 2004)

Hey Mono - 

Keep it up!!

How are you liking this new split?   I'm doing something real similar (Chest/Back, Legs, and Shoulders/Arms)     I did this for the first time last week.   I like it as long as I can throw a day of rest in between each workout.


----------



## nikegurl (Oct 20, 2004)

i've missed your journal Mono.  i'm gonna be snooping in here more often.


----------



## nikegurl (Oct 20, 2004)

and i'm glad you're not cutting anymore!


----------



## Monolith (Oct 21, 2004)

Hey YM 
I'm loving this split.  I was looking over my weights since i started... and im really fuckin ecstatic.  When i started it back on the 20th of September, i was squatting 185 for sets of 4.  My last leg day i did 295 for sets of 2.  That works out to be slightly less than a ~100lb increase in my squat in just 25 days...   Granted, im finally bulking too, so i'm sure that has something to do with it... but regardless, im pumped.


----------



## Monolith (Oct 21, 2004)

nikegurl said:
			
		

> i've missed your journal Mono.  i'm gonna be snooping in here more often.



Ive missed YOU and a bunch of other people at IM.   Classes/work are still driving me nuts.  Note to self:  don't load up on classes in subjects you SUCK at.   

And yeah, im enjoying the hypercaloric diet.  Probably too much... my fat intake has been way too high.  I think thats been my one downfall since i stopped cutting... i've got an addiction to peanuts.  They sit near the tv (which is by the back door) and my dad feeds 'em to the bluejays.  I find myself munching on 'em whenever im watching tv or even near them, now, though...   

I gained like 10lbs last week (although a lot of it was water), i wonder what it'll be come next weigh-in saturday morning?  

Suprisingly it's not bothering me too much, though.  I'm just way too pleased with the strength gains in the gym to be mad.  This is basically the first time i've made consistent, week to week gains since i started training 4 years ago... and also the first time ive been training consistently while on a hypercaloric diet.

Now if only i can get my crazy-meds nailed down, i'll be all set.


----------



## Monolith (Oct 21, 2004)

Yesterday began a new "mesocycle" of Lyle's periodization routine.  If you're interested, i outlined the basic structure of the next few weeks routines in this thread:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3231

It's the last 3 or 4 posts in the thread.


----------



## Vieope (Oct 21, 2004)

Monolith said:
			
		

> Ive missed YOU and a bunch of other people at IM.


_You better start missing me as well. _


----------



## yellowmoomba (Oct 21, 2004)

Monolith said:
			
		

> Hey YM
> I'm loving this split.  I was looking over my weights since i started... and im really fuckin ecstatic.  When i started it back on the 20th of September, i was squatting 185 for sets of 4.  My last leg day i did 295 for sets of 2.  That works out to be slightly less than a ~100lb increase in my squat in just 25 days...   Granted, im finally bulking too, so i'm sure that has something to do with it... but regardless, im pumped.



Holy Sh*t.......Now that's GREAT progress Mono!!!   Congrats on the increases!!


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## nikegurl (Oct 21, 2004)

1)  peanuts are way better than a lot of things (say umm.....doughnuts  )

2)  you are getting CRAZY stong  

3)  i'm glad you're enjoying your training (and your bulking).

4)


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## Monolith (Oct 21, 2004)

Alright, so yesterday began a new mesocycle.  Here's what it looked like:

Day A - chest emphasis (extensive bodybuilding), back emphasis (intensive bodybuilding), and maintenance/accessory grip work.  This means most chest and back sets will be in a rep range most conducive to the above mentioned training zone, with a couple additional sets of maintenance work in the other training zones.  There will be further chest/back maintenance work on Day C.

The Day A routine - 

*Flat BB press* -
225lbx1
245lbx1
250lbx1
*First time i've ever pressed 225 on the flat bench... bench charts have shown ive been able to for a while now, but i never actually did it.  I know its shit weight for most people at IM, but it was a great psychological boost. 

*BB row* - 
225lbx6
225lbx5
225lbx4.5
225lbx4.5
225lbx4.5
225lbx4.5
*Done "yates" style.  That is, i didnt bend over 65 degrees or so like i normally do.  Perhaps a 20 degree bend with these?  They felt good, but the last few sets (all those '4.5' ones) were actually complete sets of up to 6 reps, but they just didnt feel legitimate because i was using a bit more body english than i felt comfortable with.  I'll probably drop to 205lbs next week and try to be extremely strict with form and tempo.  I might even just go back to horizontal rows.  Any suggestions?

*Flat BB press*
185lbx7
185lbx6
175lbx5
155lbx5
*Left rotator cuff has been bothering me mildly for the past few days.  These short RI sets of bench aggravated it.  Missed my target minimum reps on the last 2 sets, even with the dropped weight.  Cuff feels fine now... but i think its just overstressed.  I was benching with scapulas retracted and bringing the bar low (right around the xyphoid process - err... bottom of the sternum.  sorry, A&P review is still stuck in my head  ), so i dunno what the deal is.  I should probably give it a rest, but im feeling a little too stubborn at the moment to do that.

*WG pulldowns* - 
150lbx12
150lbx9.5

*Reverse BB wrist curl* -
40lbx7
40lbx5

-----

So, it felt pretty good.  First two sets (245 and 250) on the flat bench were maintenance strength work.  The 4 sets of flat bench i did after the rows were the actual extensive bodybuilding emphasis work.  Same deal for the 6 sets of rows (intensive bb emphasis) and the 2 sets of pulldowns (maintenance ext bb).  I'm adding in a couple sets of high rep flys and CG cable rows in on Day C as a bit more maintenance work for the other training zones.


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## Monolith (Oct 21, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _You better start missing me as well. _



You're always on my mind, Vieope.


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## Monolith (Oct 21, 2004)

yellowmoomba said:
			
		

> Holy Sh*t.......Now that's GREAT progress Mono!!!   Congrats on the increases!!



Thanks. 




			
				nikegurl said:
			
		

> 1)  peanuts are way better than a lot of things (say umm.....doughnuts  )
> 
> 2)  you are getting CRAZY stong
> 
> ...



haha, well dont get me wrong... i havent exactly avoided the bad stuff.  Ive had french fries a couple times since i started the bulk, too...   But generally i think whats really killed me is that i can barely call my diet a "carb cycle" now.  In fact, ive only finally started having true no carb days again this past week and a half or so.  Thank god its getting colder out and i can hide my flab.


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## myCATpowerlifts (Oct 21, 2004)

wow, nice strength gains...i wish i could do that well in a frickin YEAR! sigh..

230 lbs??  How tall are you??


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## Vieope (Oct 21, 2004)

Monolith said:
			
		

> You're always on my mind, Vieope.


_Too gay compliment but accept it.  _


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## Monolith (Oct 22, 2004)

myCATpowerlifts said:
			
		

> wow, nice strength gains...i wish i could do that well in a frickin YEAR! sigh..
> 
> 230 lbs??  How tall are you??



6'5"

RE: the strength gains... remember, ive been cutting for a _long_ time.  I havent worked out in a carbed up state for a long time, too.  I'm also drinking a during w/o shake now.  Plus i've got a lot of immediate potential for strength gains, probably similar to "newbie" gains, because ive never really given my body enough fuel to grow before.  I mean, look at my size.  The weights im finally starting to push are finally just breaking into the "average" category.  I'm certainly not expecting to add *another* 100lbs to the squat in 25 days.


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## Monolith (Oct 22, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Too gay compliment but accept it.  _



Vieope, sometimes you make me wish i were gay.


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## yellowmoomba (Oct 22, 2004)

Great workout yesterday .....   I like your new program!!


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## PreMier (Oct 22, 2004)




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## Monolith (Oct 22, 2004)

Training for 10/22:  Day B

*Squats* - 
315lbx1
315lbx1
315lbx1
315lbx1
315lbx1
315lbx1
315lbx1

*SLDL* - 
270lbx6
270lbx4+2 (grip failed, dropped weight for ~5 sec)

*Leg press* - 
510lbx12
510lbx10
510lbx6 (after those squats, this slow tempo shit killed me)

*Lying leg curl* -
110lbx12

*Seated leg curl* - 
90lbx70s

*Seated calf raise* - 
145lbx8
145lbx8

---------

I did it... i finally squatted 3 plates.   It was only for singles, but it felt pretty damn good.  I had someone watch my form on a couple sets to make sure it looked alright and i was going at _least_ parallel.

I think people at my gym are starting to think im juicing or something... cuz within a month ive gone from sets with 185 to singles with 315.


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## Vieope (Oct 22, 2004)

Monolith said:
			
		

> Vieope, sometimes you make me wish i were gay.


_My warmly and cudly blue fur is irresistible. _


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## myCATpowerlifts (Oct 22, 2004)

lol @ vieope

wow 6'5" 230, your a monster 
im similar to you in a respect, i just came off a long ass cut
My strength dipped pretty low...

im now 6'1" 181


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## PreMier (Oct 22, 2004)

Fuck yea man!
(squats)


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## aggies1ut (Oct 22, 2004)

Monolith said:
			
		

> Ive missed YOU and a bunch of other people at IM.   Classes/work are still driving me nuts.  Note to self:  don't load up on classes in subjects you SUCK at.


So, whatcha taking and where are you working?   That is, if you don't mind me asking. I'm nosy.


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## Monolith (Oct 24, 2004)

6'5" 230 isnt big at all... it prolly looks big on paper, but i dont even look like i lift. 

Actually i weighed myself yesterday and im up to 234.  I really, really need to clean up my diet.  I ate like half a birthday cake a couple days ago. 

For my classes, im taking a bunch of science/math shit.  Inorganic chem, A&P, Psych, Statistics, and Pharmacology.  It's only 5 classes with 2 labs, but before all this i was a pure liberal arts major.  Writing lots of papers was my thing.  Then i got interested in supplements/biochemistry/pharmacology.  Then i got _really_ interested in supplements/biochemistry/pharmacology.   So i decided to load up on those types of courses to see if i could handle a change of majors (ive always been fucking awful at math).  It's going ok so far... im probably around a B average going into the midterms for most classes, might be pulling an A in a couple.  It's kind of annoying me, though, because i want to learn this stuff - i want to get an A in all of it - but i dont have the time to spend studying and memorizing everything.

As for my job, dont get me wrong... its really nothing sternuous.  Its maybe 15-20 hours a week as a courier for a few lawyers.  Basically lots of driving around and standing in line.

On top of that, though, im trying to spend some time reading up on crazy meds and their pharmacological actions so as to better convince my shrink to prescribe me the good stuff.   He's been suprisingly open to my ideas, and has actually gone along with some of them.  In fact i was supposed to fax him a few journal articles on some novel drugs i wanted to try but havent gotten around to it.

Then of course there's my social life.  Which is, of course, nonexistent at this point.


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## yellowmoomba (Oct 24, 2004)

Monolith said:
			
		

> Training for 10/22:  Day B
> 
> *Squats* -
> 315lbx1
> ...



3 PLATES!!!


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## Monolith (Oct 24, 2004)

Ugh.  Today sucked.  Every joint in my left arm has tendonitis.  Elbow, wrist, and rotator cuff.  I'm gonna take the next 5 days off completely.  I was gonna still do lower body, but my knees were bothering me the night after those singles with 315 (though they feel fine now).  I think the high weight low rep training has taken its toll.


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## aggies1ut (Oct 24, 2004)

Well good luck with classes. I had the biggest probs with calculus and inorganic chem in college. Oddly enough though, my best science grade came in organic chem with lab.  
As for me, I guess I'm on a quarter system. I have 7 hour test on Tuesday, Vegas, and then finals. After that, I have to work on law school applications for fall, including a new personal statement and getting all my letters of reccomendation and transcripts in order. I also have to look for new car insurance and find a job/internship. Blah.


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## Monolith (Oct 27, 2004)

aggies1ut said:
			
		

> Well good luck with classes. I had the biggest probs with calculus and inorganic chem in college. Oddly enough though, my best science grade came in organic chem with lab.
> As for me, I guess I'm on a quarter system. I have 7 hour test on Tuesday, Vegas, and then finals. After that, I have to work on law school applications for fall, including a new personal statement and getting all my letters of reccomendation and transcripts in order. I also have to look for new car insurance and find a job/internship. Blah.



Yeah, im actually sort of looking forward to organic chem.  Inorganic is just boring crap (although making drugs is pretty cool).

Good luck with your finals.  Where are you applying to law school?  I'm still being pushed in that direction. :/

As for an internship... i cant believe you havent bugged TP for one.  Those inappropriate requests are the kind of ethics you need if you expect to make it as a lawyer.


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## Monolith (Oct 27, 2004)

Update time.

I'm gonna try to hit the gym for some leg work tomorrow evening.  I was gonna take a couple more days off, but im going stir-crazy.

I got myself a script for pramipexole, a DA agonist.  Probably not gonna start it untill this weekend, cuz the last thing i need is iatrogenic narcolepsy during a midterm. 

Also got some extended release adderall.  The instant release stuff is nice, but the ups and down are a PITA.  It worked pretty well today.  Good mood, motivation, etc.

Diet has been crap.  I need to find me some DNP.


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## Monolith (Oct 28, 2004)

So, i started the pram early.  It activates the DA receptors similar to bromo, but its a non-ergot alkaloid.  Side effects are much less than with bromo.

Started with 250mcg this morning.  Felt good all day... and suprisingly, its already having some potent hunger blunting effects.  I'm normally hungery every 2.5 hours... if i had a big meal, its a little longer, but usually my satiety doesnt last past 3.5 hours.  Today, on just 250mcg of pram, i went 5.5 hours without feeling hungry at all.  I was stuck in class, or otherwise i would have thrown a shake down.  By the time i finally got home and got a meal in me, it was 6 hours... and i didnt feel hungry at all.  Some very slight nausea... but nothing truly bothersome.  I'm really impressed so far.


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## Vieope (Oct 28, 2004)

_Die_


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## Monolith (Oct 29, 2004)

Hunger is still blunted quite well.  I only had a small sandwich about 3 hours ago, and im just _barely_ starting to feel hungry.  Normally id eat something that small and be gnawing my fingers off after 2 hours.  It'll be interesting to see how 500mcg works.

I'm finally headin back into the gym tomorrow.


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## carbchick (Nov 5, 2004)

update?


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## aggies1ut (Nov 5, 2004)

Monolith said:
			
		

> Yeah, im actually sort of looking forward to organic chem.  Inorganic is just boring crap (although making drugs is pretty cool).
> 
> Good luck with your finals.  Where are you applying to law school?  I'm still being pushed in that direction. :/
> 
> As for an internship... i cant believe you havent bugged TP for one.  Those inappropriate requests are the kind of ethics you need if you expect to make it as a lawyer.


Thanks for the good luck. I'm applying to my undergrad's law school (UC Davis) and another local school (McGeorge School of Law, which is a part of the University of the Pacific). I don't really want to go out of state and I'm through with that SoCal shit. My previous law school was a bunch of crap. I'm also trying to stay local because my grandfather has Alzheimer's and my grandma has rapidly deteriorated. She has full blown dementia now. My uncle....ah he's a whole separate issue...lots of shit with him. Soooo, I want to do the best I can to help my dad deal with all this.

As for asking TP,   he's in NY. I doubt that he could help this NorCal chick. 

How's school going?


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## JerseyDevil (Nov 6, 2004)

Monolith said:
			
		

> Training for 10/22:  Day B
> 
> *Squats* -
> 315lbx1
> ...


Damn Mono, way to go man.  You've moved up big time in weight.  Watch that arm though.  I know all about elbow pain  .


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