# novaldex vs clomid



## musclemaniac (May 23, 2002)

I heard a lot about clomid being the best thing to use after a cycle, that was some time ago.
Today someone said novaldex is much better to use and you need less for more effect. + no side effects like dizziness etc...
So what do you guys think about that , is this true?
If it is, i never buy clomid again.


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## Mifody (May 24, 2002)

well, dunno if this helps but.. 

http://www.triedia.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14711

theres a discussion there about it with a link to another discussion as well.

from reading it all i dont think a conclusion was ever totally reached  

however, i have never once seen anyone post a cycle using nolvadex alone for post cylce recovery.

perhaps gopro may know??


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## British Bulldog (May 24, 2002)

It all depend's which steroids you have been using as to which drug is more effective post cycle. Why not just use them both.


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## Pitboss (May 24, 2002)

NOT!!!

novaldex to put it in simple words is used to block/stop estrogen levels...  when the nipples start hurting better get the nolvadex out or be ready start wearing sport bra's!!!

Clomid is used after a cycle, generally 4 to 6 weeks post cycle. Clomid helps your body start producing test again. During a cycle your body can shut down partially and sometimes completely the production of it's own test. The clomid gets it pumping again and by doing so helps retain some of the size and strength gained during a cycle. Without it you're basically test free, and will seee a huge decrease in the W8 you were throwing around at the gym.


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## Pitboss (May 24, 2002)

Here..... Nolvadex

This remedy is somewhat different from others since it is not an anabolic/androgenic steroid. For male and female bodybuilders, how-ever, it is a very useful and recommended compound which is con-firmed by its widespread use and mostly positive results. Nolvadex belongs to the group of sex hormones and is a so-called antiestrogen. The normal application of Nolvadex is in the treatment of certain forms of breast cancer in female patients. With Nolvadex it is pos-sible to reverse an existing growth process of deceased tissue and prevent further growth. The growth of certain tissues is stimulated by the body's own estrogen hormone. This is especially true for the breast glands in men and women since the body has a large number of estrogen receptors at these glands which can bond with the estro-gens present in the blood. If the body's own estrogen level is unusu-ally high an undesired growth of breast glands occurs. However, in healthy women and particularly in men this is not the case. Despite this, it is mostly male bodybuilders who use Nolvadex, and fewer women. At first sight this seems somewhat inconceivable but when taking a closer look, the reasons are clear. Bodybuilders who take Nolvadex also use anabolic steroids at the same time. Since most steroids aromatize more or less strongly, i.e. part of the substance is converted into estrogens, male bodybuilders can experience a sig-nificant elevation in the normally very low estrogen level. This can lead to feminization symptoms such as gynecomastia (growth of breast glands), increased fat deposits and higher water retention. 

The antiestrogen Nolvadex works against this by blocking the es-trogen receptors of the effected body tissue, thereby inhibiting a bonding of estrogens and receptor. It is, however, important to un-derstand that Nolvadex does not prevent the aromatization but only acts as an estrogen antagonist. This means that it does not prevent testosterone and its synthetic derivatives (steroids) from converting into estrogens but only fights with them in a sort of "competition" for the estrogen receptors. This characteristic has the disadvantage that after the discontinuance of Nolvadex a "rebound effect" can occur which means that the suddenly freed estrogen receptors are now able to absorb the estrogen present in the blood. For this reason the combined intake of Proviron is suggested (see Proviron.) Nolvadex is also useful during a diet since it helps in the burning of fat. Al-though Nolvadex has no direct fatburning effect its antiestrogenic effect contributes to keeping the estrogen level as low as possible. Nolvadex should especially be taken together with the strong an-drogenic steroids Dianabol and Anadrol 50, and the various test-osterone compounds. Athletes who have a tendency to retain water and who have a mammary dysfunction should take Nolvadex as a prevention during every steroid intake. Since Nolvadex is very affective in most cases it is no wonder that several athletes can take Anadrol 50 and Dianabol until the day of a competition, and in combination with a diuretic still appear totally ripped in the. limelight. Those who already have a low body fat content will achieve a visibly improved muscle hardness with Nolvadex. 

Several bodybuilders like to use Nolvadex at the end of a steroid cycle since it increases the body's own testosterone production -which will be discussed in more detail in the following-to counter-act the side effects caused by the estrogens. These can occur after the discontinuance of steroids when the androgen level in relationship to the estrogen concentration is too low and estrogen becomes the dominant hormone. A very rare but all the more serious problem of Nolvadex is that in some cases it does not lower the estrogen level but can increase it. Another disadvantage is that it can weaken the anabolic effect of some steroids. The reason is that Nolvadex, as we know, reduces the estrogen level. The fact is, however, that certain steroids -especially the various testosterone compounds-can only achieve their full effect if the estrogen level is sufficiently high. Those who are used to the intake of larger amounts of various steroids do not have to worry about this. Athletes however, who predominantly use mild steroids such as Primobolan, Winstrol, Oxandrolone, and Deca-Durabolin should carefully consider whether or not they should take Nolvadex since, due to the compound's already moderate ana-bolic effect, an additional loss of effect could take place, leading to unsatisfying results. 

A rarely observed but welcome characteristic of Nolvadex is that it has a direct influence on the hypothalamus and thus, by an in-creased release of gonadotropine, it stimulates the testosterone pro-duction in the testes. This does not result in a tremendous but still a measurable increase of the body's own testosterone. This effect, however, is not sufficient to significantly increase the testosterone production reduced by anabolic/androgenic steroids. 

The side effects of Nolvadex are usually low in dosages of up to 30 mg/day In rare cases nausea, vomiting, hot flashes, numbness, and blurred vision can occur. In women irregular menstrual cycles can occur which manifest themselves in weaker menstrual bleeding or even complete missing of a period. Women should also be careful not to get pregnant while taking Nolvadex. It is important for fe-male athletes that Nolvadex and the "pill" not be taken together since the antiestrogen Nolvadex and the estrogen-containing pill nega-tively counterfeit each other. The normal daily dosage taken by athletes corresponds more or less to the dosage indications of the manufacturer and is 10-30 mg/day To prevent estrogenic side ef-fects normally 10 mg/day are sufficient, a dosage which also keeps low the risk of reducing the effect of simultaneously-taken ste-roids. Often it is sufficient if the athlete begins this preventive intake of Nolvadex only three to four weeks after the intake of anabolics. Athletes who have tendencies toward gynecomastia, strong water retention, and increased fat deposits with steroids such as Dianabol, Testosterone, Anadrol 50, and Deca-Durabolin usually take 20-30 mg/day The combined application of Nolvadex 20-30 mg/day and Proviron 25-50 mg/day in these cases leads to excellent results. The same is true for athletes who are in competition, and for women. Women, however, should do without the intake of Proviron or at least reduce the dose to one 25 mg tablet per day. Unfortunately, in most cases, a very pronounced gynecomastia ("bitch tits") cannot be reduced by taking Nolvadex so that often surgery is required, surgery which is not paid for by health insurance. First signs of a possible gynecomastia are light pain when touching the nipples. The tablets are usually taken 1-2x daily, swallowed whole without chewing, with some liquid during meals. 

Nolvadex unfortunately is a very expensive compound. Some ex-amples: In Germany one hundred 20 mg tablets cost $192. In Spain the prices are fixed by the govern-ment and it makes no difference whether it is an original Nolvadex or a generic compound. One hundred 20 mg tablets cost approx. $60 in Spain. In Greece the same quantity costs about $85. The athlete should look for the 20-mg version since, from its price, it is the most economical. On the black-market, mostly the foreign Nolvadex can be found costing about $2 - 3 per 20 mg tablet. Origi-nal Nolvadex tablets can be easily identified since, on the front, ICI (name of the manufacturer) is stamped and, on the back, the name "Nolvadex". Most of the time the tablet strength is also imprinted. Ten tablets are included in an unusually large push-through strip. In the U.S. original Nolvadex is packaged by the manufacturer, ICI Pharma, in small, white plastic boxes with a childproof screw cap. So far there are no fakes of Nolvadex and its generic products.


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## Pitboss (May 24, 2002)

and Clomid... 

Clomid is not an anabolic/androgenic steroid. Since it is a synthetic estrogen it belongs, however, to the group of sex hormones. In school medicine Clomid is normally used to trigger ovulation. Clomid also has a strong influence on the hypothalamohypophysial testicular axis. It stimulates the hypo-physis to release more gonadotropin so that a faster and higher re-lease of FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) and LH (luteinizing hor-mone) occurs. This results in an elevated endogenous (body's own) testosterone level. Clomid is especially effective when the body's own testosterone production, due to the intake of anabolic/androgenic steroids, is suppressed. In most cases Clomid can normalize the tes-tosterone level and the spermatogenesis (sperm development) within 10- 14 days. For this reason Clomid is primarily taken after steroids are discontinued. At this time it is extremely important to bring the testosterone production to a normal level as quickly as possible so that the loss of strength and muscle mass is minimized. Even better results can be achieved if Clomid is combined with HCG or when Clomid is used after the intake of HCG. 

Paradoxically, although Clomid is a synthetic estrogen it also works as an antiestrogen. The reason is that Clomid has only a very low estrogenic effect and thus the stronger estrogens which, for example, form during the aromatization of steroids, are blocked at the recep-tors. These would include those that develop during the aromatiz-ing of steroids. This does not prevent the steroids from aromatizing but the increased estrogen is mostly deactivated since it cannot at-tach to the receptors. The increased water retention and the possible signs of feminization can thus be reduced or even completely avoided. Since the antiestrogenic effect of Clomid is lower than those found in Proviron, Nolvadex, and Teslac it is mainly taken as a testosterone stimulant. Clomid is a medica-tion that promotes the production of the body's own stimulating hormone, gonadotropin, which in turn increases the testosterone level. It is, for example, administered to women as a so-called antiestrogen to trigger ovulation ("ovulation stimulator"). 

Side effects of Clomid are very rare if reasonable dosages are taken. Possible side effects are climacteric hot flashes and occasional visual disturbances which can manifest themselves in blurred vision, giv-ing flickering or flashing. Should visual disturbances occur, the manufacturer recommends discontinuing Clomid treatment. Inad-equate liver functions cannot be excluded; however, they are very unlikely. In women enlargement of the ovaries and abdominal pain can occur since Clomid stimulates the ovaries. When taking Clomid multiple pregnancies are possible as well. As for the dosage, 50-100 mg/day (1 -2 tablets) seems to be sufficient. The tablets are usually taken with fluids after meals. If several tablets are taken it is recom-mended that they be administered in equal doses distributed through-out the day. The duration of intake has been rummored to not be taken for longer thatn 10-14 days. This is incorrect. Clinical studies with male patients have shown clomid to be used for up to a year or longer. Most athletes begin with 100 mg/day, taking one 5 0 mg tablet ev-ery morning and evening after meals. After the fifth day the dosage is often reduced to only one 50 mg tablet per day It is normally not necessary to take the compound for more than ten days in order to increase the endogenous testosterone production. Clomid is relatively expensive. A package with 10 tablets costs approx. $35 - 45 on the black market.


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## Pitboss (May 24, 2002)

maybe it was this you were thinking of Arimidex??

Arimidex is not a steroid. It is a tablet form anti-aromitase that is used by many body builders to help prevent bloating (edema) and Gynecomastia (bitch tit) associated with the use of testosterone and androgens. It can be used in place of Nolvadex ,Clomid, etc. Bodybuilders are using around .25mg to 1mg per day or .5mg to 1mg every other day and are having good success with it. A box of 28/1mg tablets will run around $200-$300. There is a new liquid form that was introduced and made available May of 2001 that comes in a 20ml bottle and contains 4mg/ml. The price is much better and can be found for as little as $260 a bottle versus $550 for the same amount in tablet form. The FDA approved uses are for the treatment of breast cancer in post-menopausal women with disease progression following tamoxifen therapy. Hypersensitivity to anastrozole are reasons not to use this drug. If you have these problems please inform your doctor. Common side effects are: shortness of breath, dizziness, diarrhea, vomiting, headache, hat flashes, weakness, cough, dry mouth, skin rash, sweating, abdominal pain and bone pain. Some less common symptoms are vaginal bleeding, weight gain, tiredness, chills, fever, breast pain, and itching. In case of an overdose, it is recommended to contact your poison control center.


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## Mifody (May 25, 2002)

i'd be using arimidex/liquidex throughout cycle and post cycle therapy.   i'd stick with the clomid over nolvadex


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## gopro (May 25, 2002)

Most of my athletes have had the best success using BOTH Nolvadex and Clomid post cycle. Clomid is better at increasing test levels, but Nolvadex does have some effect in this area as well. Nolvadex is better at blocking estrogen, but Clomid has some effect in this area as well.

After a cycle, test is generally low and estrogen is generally high. A combo of the 2 works quite nicely in most cases.


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## British Bulldog (May 27, 2002)

Go pro - as arimidex is more effective than clomid at blocking estrogen, would it be more effective to use arimidex and clomid post cycle, rather than nolva+clomid.


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## gopro (May 28, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by British Bulldog *_
> Go pro - as arimidex is more effective than clomid at blocking estrogen, would it be more effective to use arimidex and clomid post cycle, rather than nolva+clomid.



Yes, but I don't think it is worth it as the cost of Arimidex is so high. Between clomid and Nolvadex, you should have no problem controlling estrogen. Also, Arimidex screws with your cholesterol, and Nolvadex does not.


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## musclemaniac (May 28, 2002)

THX for the tips!


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