# Should I bulk or cut (please help!!)



## divfan80 (May 7, 2011)

I simply cannot figure what to do. 

My current stats/story are as followed:

24 years old, 6 ft tall, 185 pounds

I went through an ED about a year ago and lost all my muscle mass. I dropped from 220 to 170 extremely fast. After that I developed binge eating habits due to emotional issues and gained from 170 to 185 over the course of about a year. I have managed to get my binging under control for the most part with appropriate help but I am stuck in a rut as to what to do now. I feel fat but I have no muscle mass. If I cut, I'm going to be skinny fat. If I bulk, I'll get fatter but get more muscle. 

I started lifting about 3 months ago. Here are pictures prior to me lifting at roughly 175-180:

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3056/45929625.jpg
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/9798/15515252.jpg
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9783/64822223.jpg
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/4660/32811146.jpg

Here's pictures of me yesterday at 185:

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4969/now01.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2884/now02.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9224/now03p.jpg
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5710/now04.jpg

I am not looking for sympathetic answers or anything. If you were in my shoes with the above physique, what would you do (besides laughing at yourself). Would you cut or bulk?


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## x~factor (May 7, 2011)

pics don't show dude.


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## Klutch (May 7, 2011)

pics dont show... but if you have no muscle to cut than u cant cut because theres nothing to cut. so i would bulk then cut...just make sure your diet is on track... go to the diet section and post your situation and wait for a young lady named built to respond.. and do what she says... imho


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## divfan80 (May 7, 2011)

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Do these work?


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## ihateschoolmt (May 7, 2011)

You should bulk, you should be able to gain the muscle you lost back pretty fast and you probably won't gain that much fat. If I was you I would bulk back to 220 or whatever you were before, and then cut. Shouldn't take as long for you as someone who was never 220. I assume you meant you were muscular at 220.


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## Hench (May 7, 2011)

You would look 10x better if you got some of that goodam hair! lol 

+1 for bulking. 

But slowly ramp up your cals, +200-300 above maintenance at first, then maybe another 100 every few weeks, don't go daft and eat everything in sight. Been there, done that.....not a good look. 

It's all about patience, if you're 8-10lbs heavier in 3 months then you've done a good job. Anymore and you'll have gained more fat than you think/realise.


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## ihateschoolmt (May 7, 2011)

I agree with hench except about how fast you will gain weight, but only because you already had a lot more muscle mass. It comes back way faster than building new muscle.


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## Built (May 7, 2011)

All points here are valid. That being said, coming off an eating disorder like you are, eat in such a way as to gain very very slowly or you're going to panic when you see the scale go up. It's going to take you a while to learn that you really do have dominion over what you weigh, and while you learn that, you'll harden up and get progressively stronger - and just a little bigger, but in the right places. 

That would be my advice anyway. I don't know you, and you may not have the same kinds of issues others with eating disorders sometimes do. I want to see you succeed and I think you will, if you let yourself. 

Good luck.


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## Built (May 7, 2011)

PS what's the plan for your diet and training?


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## Work IN Progress (May 7, 2011)

Whats the plan for the Hair removal.  Sweaters arent in style anymore.  lol.


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## divfan80 (May 7, 2011)

This is the routine I am following:

4 Day Power Muscle Burn Workout Split | Muscle & Strength

I really am just scared as hell to try and bulk. I feel fat, overweight, and disgusting as is so I am intensely worried about fat gain. I feel more in control of things if I am cutting instead. I have tried to bulk in the past but end up stopping because I felt too fat.

By the way, what do you guys think of my current shape. Would you consider me fat, average, a little overweight?


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## theCaptn' (May 7, 2011)

I would get fit first, plenty of cardio and lifting. Eat clean foods to slightly below maintenence. Have one day where you eat well-above maintenece and have a day off training. More of a recomp - both muscle gain and fat loss rates are much lower, but you'll feel good both physically and mentally. Definately get some hair removal.


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## triplstep (May 7, 2011)

divfan80 said:


> I really am just scared as hell to try and bulk. I feel fat, overweight, and disgusting as is so I am intensely worried about fat gain. I feel more in control of things if I am cutting instead. I have tried to bulk in the past but end up stopping because I felt too fat.
> 
> By the way, what do you guys think of my current shape. Would you consider me fat, average, a little overweight?



My opinion of your current shape is easily average. 

Look, Rome wasn't built in a day. You are facing some hurdles, and your are jumping them one by one.  Take a victory lap, you are young, and have plenty of time to continue to be better and meet goals. Get to the gym, work on form, keep a journal both for the gym and the kitchen. For a month or so, don't worry about a bulk or cut. Keep your chin up, keep your journal up, you will get to the end of the road.  

I'm not going to comment on your routine, others are better qualified.

And tell the hair phobes    to pound sand........


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## Work IN Progress (May 7, 2011)

All out of sand


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## Merkaba (May 7, 2011)

Shave first and you'll cut 10 lbs!  Then bulk.  Plus you'll look more muscular when you're hairless.


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## Built (May 7, 2011)

The split looks great - heavy compounds throughout.

How about you do that, maybe do a little cardio on two of your non-lifting days, and let's start working out your diet. 

What's your current diet plan? Can you describe it now? Include grams protein, carb and fat, and a rough outline of your meals and their timing. What is your biggest issue with food right now, and when do you get hungry during the day?


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## buddhaluv (May 7, 2011)

yeah bro get a wax, you'll definitely look alot younger & vascular IMO.

& your really not even fat, not even skinny fat, slow bulk up to 200, fill up that loose skin & you'll look 10x better


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## divfan80 (May 8, 2011)

Built said:


> The split looks great - heavy compounds throughout.
> 
> How about you do that, maybe do a little cardio on two of your non-lifting days, and let's start working out your diet.
> 
> What's your current diet plan? Can you describe it now? Include grams protein, carb and fat, and a rough outline of your meals and their timing. What is your biggest issue with food right now, and when do you get hungry during the day?



My diet is all over the place. I have a kickass workout routine but my diet sucks. One week I decide I'm going to cut, the next week I decide I'm going to bulk. I have no idea what to do. Right now I really want to bulk but I am scared to eat more because of fat gain. I just had a huge messup on my diet. I just binged three days in a row. I am not talking about just binging but like 4,000 to 5,000 calorie days. Now I feel like cutting with a PSMF diet this coming week to lose the weight I've gained and then trying to bulk again..

Personally, I think I look like crap. I think I'm in a lose lose situation. If I cut, I'll look the same but thinner. If I bulk, I'll look the same but with bigger arms and a fatter stomach. I think at this point I would rather just do my weight training program and lots of cardio in a calorie deficit and just lose like 15 pounds.


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## ihateschoolmt (May 8, 2011)

I eat more calories than that every day when I bulk, 4,000 is probably about where you need to be at.


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## Built (May 8, 2011)

divfan80 said:


> My diet is all over the place. I have a kickass workout routine but my diet sucks. One week I decide I'm going to cut, the next week I decide I'm going to bulk. I have no idea what to do. Right now I really want to bulk but I am scared to eat more because of fat gain. I just had a huge messup on my diet. I just binged three days in a row. I am not talking about just binging but like 4,000 to 5,000 calorie days. Now I feel like cutting with a PSMF diet this coming week to lose the weight I've gained and then trying to bulk again..
> 
> Personally, I think I look like crap. I think I'm in a lose lose situation. If I cut, I'll look the same but thinner. If I bulk, I'll look the same but with bigger arms and a fatter stomach. I think at this point I would rather just do my weight training program and lots of cardio in a calorie deficit and just lose like 15 pounds.


Okay, I understand completely - I'm a woman and I've been fat; I moderate a board started by a bunch of fat - and formerly fat - women who were trying to figure out the same balance point you're coming from. It's scary starting that first bulk after dropping a lot of weight and especially while working through an eating disorder. I might be able to offer some small assistance there. You're binging because the prolonged starvation left you with PTSD. I don't want you to go hungry for a while, okay? I don't want you to bulk either. You need to get maintenance worked out. 


Can you please describe what you try to eat - meal by meal - and also describe where you fuck up? I might be able to help you with some suggestions if you do that.


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## Curlingcadys (May 9, 2011)

triplstep said:


> My opinion of your current shape is easily average.
> 
> Look, Rome wasn't built in a day. You are facing some hurdles, and your are jumping them one by one.  Take a victory lap, you are young, and have plenty of time to continue to be better and meet goals. Get to the gym, work on form, keep a journal both for the gym and the kitchen. For a month or so, don't worry about a bulk or cut. Keep your chin up, keep your journal up, you will get to the end of the road.


 
+1

couldn't agree more with this post, get back in a healthy routine diet and working out till you're to the point its second nature and no longer guess work- ie: restablish your discipline and keep your calories at maint. (once you figure out what that is), simply refine the "shape" you're in now (to include shaving). Once you do reestablish the discipline full circle then pull the trigger on cutting or bulking. Odds are you'll clean up a bit of the fat you see now as you'll find your maint. cals now but then you'll start working out again and body cal consumption will increase and you'll be cutting to a point.  Then yes after a good few weeks when things become second nature diet/lifting/cardio I deffinately say start bulking. LITTLE BY LITTLE as allready stated "crawl, walk, run" don't go jumping cals by a K 3wks from now you'll pile on chub like no other, take it slow- its a marathon not a sprint.  Remember when that time comes you don't have to bulk a 1lb a week, you'll mind fuck yourself into thinking your a fat ass again and all will be sabotaged considering your mind state I'd take it even slower than that.


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## Hubauer (May 9, 2011)

divfan80 said:


> Personally, I think I look like crap. I think I'm in a lose lose situation. _*If I cut, I'll look the same but thinner.*_ If I bulk, I'll look the same but with bigger arms and a fatter stomach. I think at this point I would rather just do my weight training program and lots of cardio in a calorie deficit and just lose like 15 pounds.



Well, there's your answer. I'm pretty much in the same boat as you bud, I was pudgy as a child and when I start bulking I gain fat pretty easily. Plus I'm about the same height, weight, and bodyfat. But if we cut, what is left when we're done cutting? 

Like built and curlingcudys said, take some time to figure out what you need to do to maintain. You can even build some strength without a crazy caloric surplus. But you have to get past your mental block. If you're bulking you're going to gain some fat, but you try to minimize it by eating clean and not eating insanely over your maintenance. Plus, when you're ready to cut, it will be easier after you've added a couple pounds because your base metabolic rate will be higher. If you're interested, I have a couple motivational articles on bulking, just let me know.

Ok, I'm getting off my soapbox now. haha. Good luck with whichever you decide to do!


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## divfan80 (May 10, 2011)

Built said:


> The split looks great - heavy compounds throughout.
> 
> How about you do that, maybe do a little cardio on two of your non-lifting days, and let's start working out your diet.
> 
> What's your current diet plan? Can you describe it now? Include grams protein, carb and fat, and a rough outline of your meals and their timing. What is your biggest issue with food right now, and when do you get hungry during the day?



Currently I'm eating veggies, chicken, lean red meat, egg whites, lean ground turkey, and fish. I guess you can say a PSMF style menu but with higher calories (though not many more than a usual PSMF diet). Low carbs, low fat, high protein.

I do not believe at this time I am capable of bulking. To maintain a calorie surplus ALL week round...deal with occasional binges...try to remain positive about myself/body image...maintain my current dating life...PLUS going out on the weekends with my friends as I do would be a recipe for disaster when it comes to my mental sanity. I would probably become near suicidal from all the weight gain. 

When I am consistently in a calorie deficit I feel much better about myself if I cheat or fall off plan because I have "room" to do so if the situation comes up. When you are bulking you will gain fat period. When you are bulking if you cheat too much you are guaranteed to gain more fat. It's a lose/lose situation for me if I bulk. I'll gain muscle but the fat gain will be greater.

Right now I have been keeping my calories low while working out twice a day for over an hour each time. I am probably burning well over 3,000 calories per day, easily, with what I am doing. I feel in total control and that makes me happy, for now at least.

Now if I could eat a surplus on workout days and a deficit on off days, I would feel better. Something like 3,000 cals (or whatever needed to bulk up) on workout days and 1,800 on off days would make me feel more comfortable. Unfortunately it seems to bulk up you must remain in a surplus all week round. So I workout M-T-T-F. If I could eat a surplus on those days and on wednesday/weekends eat less but enough protein and still make gains, I'd be happy. But that does not seem like an option. It seem slike I must stay in a surplus around the clock.

This is the only thing I could see working for me. Eating a calorie surplus on workout days (Monday, Tues, Thurs, Fri) but keeping a calorie deficit (but eating 1.5g of protein per bw for muscle maintenance) on off days. Is it possible to make gains this way or must I be in a surplus week round?


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## Built (May 10, 2011)

divfan80 said:


> Currently I'm eating veggies, chicken, lean red meat, egg whites, lean ground turkey, and fish. I guess you can say a PSMF style menu but with higher calories (though not many more than a usual PSMF diet). Low carbs, low fat, high protein.
> 
> I do not believe at this time I am capable of bulking. To maintain a calorie surplus ALL week round...deal with occasional binges...try to remain positive about myself/body image...maintain my current dating life...PLUS going out on the weekends with my friends as I do would be a recipe for disaster when it comes to my mental sanity. I would probably become near suicidal from all the weight gain.
> 
> ...



Please stop doing this. You WILL mess yourself up if you continue to do this on low calories. 



divfan80 said:


> I am probably burning well over 3,000 calories per day, easily, with what I am doing. I feel in total control and that makes me happy, for now at least.
> 
> Now if I could eat a surplus on workout days and a deficit on off days, I would feel better.


Then do that. 




divfan80 said:


> Something like 3,000 cals (or whatever needed to bulk up) on workout days and 1,800 on off days would make me feel more comfortable. Unfortunately it seems to bulk up you must remain in a surplus all week round.


Okay, hold it. You appear to be unclear on the concept. Bulking means you eat more food than you require in a deliberate act to gain weight. While doing so, you lift heavy and hard, and pack on muscle. 

This means you must run a surplus ON AVERAGE. 

If you go OVER some days and UNDER other days, you can bulk if on average you're over, or cut if on average you're under, or maintain if on average you're ... er, average. 

Why not do that for now? Eat at maintenance - higher on training days, lower on rest days. 


divfan80 said:


> So I workout M-T-T-F. If I could eat a surplus on those days and on wednesday/weekends eat less but enough protein and still make gains, I'd be happy.


You will make gains if you eat more calories than you require, when averaged over the week. 


divfan80 said:


> But that does not seem like an option. It seem slike I must stay in a surplus around the clock.


No.



divfan80 said:


> This is the only thing I could see working for me. Eating a calorie surplus on workout days (Monday, Tues, Thurs, Fri) but keeping a calorie deficit (but eating 1.5g of protein per bw for muscle maintenance) on off days. Is it possible to make gains this way or must I be in a surplus week round?



You need to be clear on what the word "gain" means. Gain means "eat more food than your body requires so as to ensure weight gain". It is impossible to gain weight without eating more food than you require. 

Now - if you try this "over/under" thing, you'll probably find you'll recompose a bit in a way that doesn't make you panic. So do that. I like eating and training this way, myself. 

What calories are you running on the high days, and what on the low days? 

What's your training like?


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## divfan80 (May 11, 2011)

I have been following this routine:

4 Day Power Muscle Burn Workout Split | Muscle & Strength

My diet is all over the place..yesterday I have egg whites, chicken, and broccoli for breakfast. Tuna and broccoli for lunch. Whey shake, chicken, and more broccoli for dinner. Today is pretty much same thing but I had some oatmeal and a granola bar because I was craving carbs so bad.


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## Built (May 11, 2011)

Plan and pre-pack two days: a high and a low. Try that for two days.


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## triplstep (May 11, 2011)

divfan80 said:


> My diet is all over the place..yesterday I have egg whites, chicken, and broccoli for breakfast. Tuna and broccoli for lunch. Whey shake, chicken, and more broccoli for dinner. Today is pretty much same thing but I had some oatmeal and a granola bar because I was craving carbs so bad.



Dude, please quit beating up yourself....Don't make me come through the monitor. You are eating no junk, good work. 

Slow and steady finishes the race. If I could rep you I would.


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## divfan80 (May 12, 2011)

I appreciate all of the advice in this thread. I am also curious though from the pictures I posted if anyone has a guess as to what my BF % may be?


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## NOPAIN (May 12, 2011)

You need to eat ASAP!!!!!!! Your way to skinny for your height. Try eating 6 meals a day every 2 to 3 hours. Minimum 4000 calories.


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## divfan80 (May 13, 2011)

NOPAIN said:


> You need to eat ASAP!!!!!!! Your way to skinny for your height. Try eating 6 meals a day every 2 to 3 hours. Minimum 4000 calories.



Okay I find that hard to believe. Way too skinny for my height? I am 24 years old, 6 ft tall, 185 pounds...that is overweight on the BMI scales. I do not think I am too skinny by any means.


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## Built (May 13, 2011)

It's not bone-rack, but it's close. BMI scales are really useless for athletes, you do know this, right?


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## divfan80 (May 14, 2011)

Well I think there are potential issues then as far as me personally goes, because when I look in the mirror or any pictures of myself I see an overweight, fat individual who is carrying around at least 20-30 pounds of fat that he needs to lose. 

I don't see how that is possible. How can I look in the mirror and see an overweight/obese individual yet no one else thinks the same. There is no way the mirror can be lying - I am seeing exactly what's in front of it.

I think I am an idiot you know, I will never be successful when it comes to my body. If I cut I'll miss being muscular, if I bulk I'll be fatter. I don't even think I'll be happy if I got in shape. I'll never see myself the true way.


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## Anabolic5150 (May 14, 2011)

No, you are seeing what you are telling your mind is there. You might want to seek some help if it's available, the negativity you are creating in your mind can't be good for you.

Remember, if you convince yourself that your perception is true, it becomes your reality.


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## divfan80 (May 14, 2011)

Well I am actually getting help and have been but it's not easy. Like today all day I looked at myself and saw an obese person. I have felt bad all day. Well just a little bit ago I got showered and dressed because I am going out tonight and I looked in the mirror and I think I look amazing. I really don't know what I look like. It's a shame because it's really taking a toll on me, and plus I carbed up today but ate a lot of calories (4,000) so I feel fat and disgusted. I don't know what to do anymore. I am doomed for failure. The only way I can stick to my diet is if I workout everyday. I feel like four days in the gym is not enough. I would be better off if I have a five or six day split because I never binge on workout days. I need to be in the gym monday through saturday I feel like.


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## Anabolic5150 (May 14, 2011)

You need to stop this negative thinking. You need to use self control and self discipline. I'm not beating you up, I really think you can succeed. But you need to know you can. Pre-pack food, if it's not planned, don't eat it. Gym 6 days a week, no way. Maybe 4 and then get exercise another way. Walk, ride a bike, skate, go to a park and relax. You got this, just gotta get your head straight.


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## jack1970 (May 15, 2011)

Usually if your in doubt then continue to bulk.


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## Curlingcadys (May 15, 2011)

I'll be that guy I don't mind. There's been some great advice given in this thread, damn my own advice I gave, plenty of more reputable sources have chimed in and gave you some good "in's and out's" now make a freakin decision and apply it instead of draggin this "dear abby" story out, this is not the Maury Povich show for gods sake.


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## Anabolic5150 (May 15, 2011)

^^^^^^

Pretty compassionate, aren't we?


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## Curlingcadys (May 15, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> ^^^^^^
> 
> Pretty compassionate, aren't we?


 
I'll admit it I am not a very sympathetic person, I mean I get it shit happens, a lot out of "our" controll.  Somtimes you get dealt a shit hand, you can either A) piss face about it and pout and do nothing or B)mourn for a sec then overcome the problem/obstacle. Obviously brainstorming/colaborating with others ect ect on a plan of action to over come, progress and mitigate it from happening again.

Choice B has been taking in this thread I believe by the initiative taken to ask for help, thats comendable, there are TONS of people that live in choice A day to day.  HOWEVER I just felt the thread swaying back the meter to choice A and soaking up the crying shoulder attention; where as I feel it's time for the hugs and kisses to get put away and the OP to take the "tools" offered, make a decision and get to work.


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## Anabolic5150 (May 15, 2011)

I agree. But some need a gentle hand up, some a kick in the ass. Let's save the kick for now if that's cool.


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## Chubby (May 16, 2011)

divfan80 said:


> Well I am actually getting help and have been but it's not easy. Like today all day I looked at myself and saw an obese person. I have felt bad all day. Well just a little bit ago I got showered and dressed because I am going out tonight and I looked in the mirror and I think I look amazing. I really don't know what I look like. It's a shame because it's really taking a toll on me, and plus I carbed up today but ate a lot of calories (4,000) so I feel fat and disgusted. I don't know what to do anymore. I am doomed for failure. The only way I can stick to my diet is if I workout everyday. I feel like four days in the gym is not enough. I would be better off if I have a five or six day split because I never binge on workout days. I need to be in the gym monday through saturday I feel like.


After reading your post I have a feeling that your mind is messing up with you. It is trying to make things look worse than things actully are. It is like a monkey jumping back and forth and up and down on the tree, making you restless and unable to focus on your goal. When you bulk it is telling you that you are too fat. When you cut it is telling you that you are too skinny. When you look at the mirror it wants you to believe whatever it wants. You don't have to believe every thing you think you know. 
I think your problem is your are not happy with how you look. What ever is bothering you have to be realistic and know what your goal is. 

You have two options to: Option 1. Do nothig to solve your promblem and live unhappy rest of your life.
Option 2. Admit there is a problem and do something about it. Even if it is babbies step you will get there eventually.

If you choose option 1 then am sorry for you. If you choose option 2 then follow the advice given by fellow members.

All the happy and sad things are part of package of this life. But good thing is we humans have ability to do something about it. So be glad.


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## Ravager (May 16, 2011)

Hench;2293238[B said:
			
		

> _]You would look 10x better if you got rid of some of that goodam hair! lol
> _[/B]
> +1 for bulking.



x2 lol REPS.


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## feinburgrl (May 17, 2011)

OP needs to talk to someone about this disorder. I can understand that you all are trying to help with this muscle gain but I think it's more of a mental disorder that OP needs to address to a doctor about because this will not end well if he does not address the main problem first. Once he can overcome this then he can start focusing more on muscle gain without thinking about death.

Just may 2 cents on the matter.


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## Chubby (May 17, 2011)

There seems to be too much activity going on in his mind that is driving him crazy.  May be he should also try supplement called 'Suntheanine.'  There is evidence from clinical trial that this supplement regulates activity in the brain.  Less activity in the brain means less restlessness, and it is safer than drugs.


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## divfan80 (May 22, 2011)

Well I have been on a 3,00 calorie diet for a few days now and much to my surprise it's going a lot better than expected. Most of my binge cravings have settled down (probably because all my macro's are in check). 
Here's a daily menu:

Post-workout -
2 Cups of oatmeal with whey

Snack:
2 cans Tuna and 2 cups brown rice

Lunch:
8 oz Chicken and broccoli

Dinner:
8 oz. lean red meat
Eggs
Broccoli

Nighttime snack:
1 cup cottage cheese
1 scoop whey
2 tbsp. pb

Water intake = 1 gal per day
Supplements = no xplode, cell mass, nitrix, multivitamin, fish oil tablets, super b complex


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## Chubby (May 22, 2011)

divfan80 said:


> Well I have been on a 3,00 calorie diet for a few days now and much to my surprise it's going a lot better than expected. Most of my binge cravings have settled down (probably because all my macro's are in check).
> Here's a daily menu:
> 
> If you just do cardio for workout then you might not need preworkout meal. But if you lift weights then atleast eat a small meal for preworkout such as a banana with whey shake.
> ...


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## divfan80 (May 22, 2011)

I take NO Xplode before I workout (I workout in the AM's) and you're supposed to take it on an empty stomach..so how would I work around that in order to eat something? I get up early as it is (5am).

As far as my routine goes this is what I am doing:

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/power-muscle-burn-5-day-powerbuilding-split.html


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## Chubby (May 22, 2011)

divfan80 said:


> I take NO Xplode before I workout (I workout in the AM's) and you're supposed to take it on an empty stomach..so how would I work around that in order to eat something? I get up early as it is (5am).
> 
> As far as my routine goes this is what I am doing:
> 
> Power Muscle Burn 5 Day Powerbuilding Split | Muscle & Strength


No biggie if no time to eat.  Make sure to take some simple carbs with whey after workout.  Then about hour later take some complex carbs and protein.  If you have enough time before you workout, I would rather take banana, whey and coffee intead of No Xplode, otherwise again no biggie.
Hope this helps


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## MrSaturatedFat (May 23, 2011)

Get Big!


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