# Any endurance athletes here?



## yzfrr11 (Apr 19, 2012)

It might be interesting to start a thread for triathletes, swimmers, cyclists, runners, wrestlers, and MMA athletes to discuss what regimens they have had success with in the past, and what supplements they are currently using.


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## MrSaturatedFat (Apr 19, 2012)

I'm not, but my buddy is. We've been getting into discussions about what the best stack would be for endurance. He's does crossfit, so its all about being strong/fast/flexible/coordinated/etc. So far he's only done a Test only cycle, pretty good results. He says he's too nervous to try EQ, he reads about all the bad stuff that comes with a high RBC.. so he's decided to try a Test/Winny stack. 

As far as training, he was just doing his own custom crossfit WODs, now hes focusing on getting his big lifts up doing Wendlers 5/3/1. He's getting great results.

I'd love to hear what endurance athletes do as far as stacks and training. I made a post on this on another site and it didn't get to far.


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## Gfunk (Apr 19, 2012)

Pretty cool YouTube on the balco scandal and what Marion jones and some other athletes were taking It's a 4 part video this is part one


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## Pork Chop (Apr 19, 2012)

I jogged to the mail box last Monday, does that count? Didnt really jog but kinda walked fast.... LOL

I hate cardio, lol


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## ~RaZr~ (Apr 19, 2012)

Will be watching and adding input when I can. I miss my bike riding days


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## keith1569 (Apr 19, 2012)

Ya bro I do marathons.


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## exphys88 (Apr 19, 2012)

I do some alpine climbing, lots of endurance involved.  Nothing like training at 10000 ft, or sleeping that high for a couple nights.


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## SloppyJ (Apr 19, 2012)

I ran to class today when i was late. Does that count?


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## exphys88 (Apr 20, 2012)

I chase my wife when I'm on tren, does that count?


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## Runner22 (Apr 20, 2012)

Hey guy's...I'm an avid trail runner, mountain biker, and compete in 5 & 10K road races. I started using AAS again (not since my early 20's - I'm 39 now) when I moved to Phoenix and experienced a summer heat wasting like no other, which over a few years, has lead to multiple injuries primary caused by muscle breakdown and loss of strength. Since my racing season is pretty much the spring through the fall, I break up my training into two groups - strength training in the winter months, endurance, speedwork and strength maintenance spring through fall. In terms of my gym routine, I follow a 3 on 1 off split in the winter and a 2 on 2 off split spring through fall. Actually, in the late summer months, I sometimes switch back to more of a strength routine as the long hot summer starts to take its toll. 

In terms of AAS, I haven't found one combination that I think is best, but excess amounts water retention for me is problematic when trying to run. I've had varying results with the different compounds I've tried, but what I like best for running/ racing is a low dose of Deca (300mg wk), TRT dose of Test E (250mg wk) and maybe some Tbol or Var for an extra kick. I liked the deca because for once in my life, I wasn't having tons of joint pain after the pounding rocky trail runs I do. Granted this is what I would use during the racing season and it considered probably by most to be low dose (or at least for BBer), but I can't afford to gain weight (few lbs of lean mass is ok) while I'm trying to just maintain and not waste during race season. For winter, it's a whole different story. I've had great results with Test E/ Cyp (500mg wk), Dbol 40mgs ED (kickstart). For me, winter doesn't mean bulk (excessive weight gain), but rather more of recomp of lean mass and strength. In the winter, I never gain more than 8-10lbs and by the end of summer with AAS, I never fall below my maintenance weight. 

Looking forward hearing what everyone else has to say...


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## exphys88 (Apr 20, 2012)

How does tbol affect your cardio?  Dbol and tbol give me terrible calf pumps that detrimentally affect my cardio.


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## Runner22 (Apr 20, 2012)

I definately get bad back pumps on dbol when running hills, but haven't had any problems on flat surfaces or with any other muscle groups.  With tbol, I seemed also get back pumps, but mild in comparsion to dbol.


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## yzfrr11 (Apr 20, 2012)

supplements that have been recommended:

T enanthate or cypionate @ 150-200mg/wk
HGH 3-5iu/d

benefits:
1) improved recovery between training sessions
2) prevents muscle catabolism while dieting to make weight
3) increased plasma volume
4) increased crit


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## Grozny (Apr 20, 2012)

Can we considerate masturbation like some kind of endurance I usually run it 5x per day.


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## hypno (Apr 20, 2012)

Marathoner here. I hope to get into tri's sometime as well.  I must agree that hgh does help with recovery. Test P is what I have used. Small amounts just to get test into me.


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## yzfrr11 (Apr 20, 2012)

High doses of anabolics definitely blocks aerobic performance. But low doses really boost recovery between workouts.


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## keith1569 (Apr 20, 2012)

hypno said:


> Marathoner here. I hope to get into tri's sometime as well.  I must agree that hgh does help with recovery. Test P is what I have used. Small amounts just to get test into me.



U may want to try low dose eq. I really liked it effects on recovery also


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## yzfrr11 (Apr 20, 2012)

keith1569 said:


> U may want to try low dose eq. I really liked it effects on recovery also



What dose did you run?


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## Runner22 (Apr 20, 2012)

What do you consider high doses?  I've never experienced any issues with aerobic performance on any compound that I've tried, unless I gained too much weight in a short period of time.  In fact, I ran my 5K PR last spring (at 38 I might add) while on 400mg Prop and 400mg Mast EW.  This was an experiment and the PIP will keep me from ever using it again.  However, I have read many times that Tren is the one AAS that does have a mechanism that reduces aerobic performance.  I would never have any need for Tren...too many sides from what I've been told.


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## SloppyJ (Apr 20, 2012)

150-200mg/wk is a TRT dose. That's not even worth shutting down for IMO. Go for at least 400. In no one's book is 400mg/wk considered a high dose.


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## USMC (Apr 20, 2012)

Anything but Tren lmao! You can forget cardio while on it.


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## bjg (Apr 20, 2012)

my wife runs and did compete in 10+ k's many times  and one marathon , now she is a triathlete....very dedicated  and an excellent swimmer ...and the hardest part is that she is no skinny woman... she has a full healthy figure and she is 49...never used any supplements at all besides vitamins but she follows an extremely well studied natural diet. She does not even know anything about steroids ...not even use any protein supplements ...nothing...but hell she can run and ...swim! 
i don't personally think steroids will help in endurance, and i think too many muscles will not help in endurance either


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## yzfrr11 (Apr 20, 2012)

SloppyJ said:


> 150-200mg/wk is a TRT dose. That's not even worth shutting down for IMO. Go for at least 400. In no one's book is 400mg/wk considered a high dose.



Anything more than 200mg/wk of test will totally block aerobic performance. This is a widely agreed upon fact. Yes, this is a TRT dose, and that is pretty much what you want if you are training your aerobic engine hard. Very intense aerobic training totally shuts down your HPT axis - so TRT, HGH, and low dose thyroid replacement is what an athlete needs. Too much will block aerobic efforts in a big way.


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## Runner22 (Apr 20, 2012)

Where did you read this or how did you come about this knowledge?  I would be interested in reading about it.


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## yzfrr11 (Apr 20, 2012)

HTPE axis suppression by intense aerobic training is considered common knowledge and is described in basic exercise physiology texts. There is abundant peer reviewed literature on this subject too. Endurance gurus, recommend repleting, but not over dosing these hormones.


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## Glycomann (Apr 20, 2012)

I'm writing this before I look at the Marion Jones Balco video.  I was ranked as high as 3rd in the nation in my division in my sport.  My most successful cycles were ridiculously low dose but they did make a difference. I preferred Winstrol in season and deca off season.  It was the 80s so test was not the king like it is today. I also liked Equipoise in season and off season. 200-300 mg/w max total AAS. No water retention.  Just added strength and alphaness.


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## heckler7 (Apr 20, 2012)

I feel pretty good on test and dbol, but from expirience SD drags me down, I was on 2 summers ago and remember feeling like today is the day I'm gonna drown everytime I went surfing. After about 30 mins I could barely lift my arms out of the water.


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## Glycomann (Apr 20, 2012)

One more thing. Pretty much everyone with the elite status was on something.


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## Runner22 (Apr 20, 2012)

Glycomann said:


> I'm writing this before I look at the Marion Jones Balco video. I was ranked as high as 3rd in the nation in my division in my sport. My most successful cycles were ridiculously low dose but they did make a difference. I preferred Winstrol in season and deca off season. It was the 80s so test was not the king like it is today. I also liked Equipoise in season and off season. 200-300 mg/w max total AAS. No water retention. Just added strength and alphaness.



Did you run winstrol & deca by itself and if so, what was your daily and or weekly dosage?


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## Digitalash (Apr 20, 2012)

How about 150mg each EQ and deca, for endurance and joint health respectively; 200mg test E/C for libido/ mental health/ drive etc.


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## keith1569 (Apr 20, 2012)

Digitalash said:


> How about 150mg each EQ and deca, for endurance and joint health respectively; 200mg test E/C for libido/ mental health/ drive etc.



That could be a good stack. Would be interested to see how the deca helped vs just eq n test

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## bjg (Apr 21, 2012)

i know personally a pro marathon runner a 2h20mns  guy and i can assure you he does not take any steroids and he thinks it does not help at all...he takes other things and supplements but no hormones ....and he is regularly tested for banned substances
banned substances other than steroids are used by endurance athletes, tour de france cyclists and triathletes....some do use steroids but it does not help in endurance.
steroids will not help in most track and field events especially endurance events, jumping events ...
it can help in sprinting 60 m and 100 m only ..it helps in the start of the race where acceleration requiring muscle strength is needed. but again too much muscles will slow you down at the end of the race....so it is a trade off and a calculated thing.
as far as throwing events , steroids helps in shot put, discus and and hammer throw ..but it helps some people not all of them ...because some rely on speed rather than strength..they have natural speed. Steroids  gives better accelreration by increasing muscle strength but it also adds mass and it can slow down natural speed...so again a trade off.
i used to compete in track and field , i was not great but ok, however from what i have seen in general steroids do help but there are always naturals who beat them by pure talent....and strange enough when you give steroids to a natural it does not necessary help him


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## yzfrr11 (Apr 21, 2012)

This is a very accurate post brother. I think that testosterone is only indicated to replete levels back to normal levels - total test can be strongly supressed to below 150 ng/dl during periods of intense training and racing. In this scenario, 150-200 mg/wk in divided doses can make a big difference. Similarly, thyroid and HGH should be replaced as well for optimal aerobic performance in my opinion. 


bjg said:


> i know personally a pro marathon runner a 2h20mns  guy and i can assure you he does not take any steroids and he thinks it does not help at all...he takes other things and supplements but no hormones ....and he is regularly tested for banned substances
> banned substances other than steroids are used by endurance athletes, tour de france cyclists and triathletes....some do use steroids but it does not help in endurance.
> steroids will not help in most track and field events especially endurance events, jumping events ...
> it can help in sprinting 60 m and 100 m only ..it helps in the start of the race where acceleration requiring muscle strength is needed. but again too much muscles will slow you down at the end of the race....so it is a trade off and a calculated thing.
> ...


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## exphys88 (Apr 21, 2012)

When you say thyroid, do you mean t4 or t3?


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## yzfrr11 (Apr 21, 2012)

I really like Armour for repleting thyroid hormone. T3 is the active hormone of course, but its half-life is too short for practical use - the athlete would be on a constant roller coaster ride. T4 is gives very stable levels and is also under physiologic control with regards to its conversion into the active T3 hormone. I like Armour cuz it gives the best of both worlds. I like to recommend the athlete take half his dose an hour before breakfast, and the other half an hour before dinner, so that the T3 levels are more even. The morning dose can be given in the middle of the night if the athlete wakes up for a bathroom run regularly.


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## exphys88 (Apr 21, 2012)

Armour is dosed pretty low, how much milligrams do you take and do you try to put yourself at supraphysiological levels?


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## hoyle21 (Apr 21, 2012)

BJG-after seeing your posts the last few weeks it seems like you should try posting in the TRT section.

Not everyone here is on TRT as an excuse to blast and cruise.   My T levels were at 172 at the age of 33 and I had never cycled at that point in time.   I'm also interested in hearing a different opinion, even if it does run contrary to my views.


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## hypno (Apr 21, 2012)

keith1569 said:


> U may want to try low dose eq. I really liked it effects on recovery also



Thank you for reminding me. I completely forgot about EQ. Very mild and very effective for endurance.


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## yzfrr11 (Apr 21, 2012)

Its so easy to overdose thyroid replacement - and I think that is very counter-productive. In the case for an endurance athlete, it can really decrease cardiac output by decreasing diastolic filling resulting in low stroke volume. And for the bodybuilder, too much is catabolic.


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## yzfrr11 (Apr 21, 2012)

Getting thyroid to normal physiologic levels is best I think. I'll bet most bros on cycle are hypothyroid. One grain of armour per day is a good conservative staring point, and then check labs after 4-6 wks, and adjust accordingly.


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## Grozny (Apr 21, 2012)

Truly elite endurance athletes use epogen or blood doping techniques to gain this edge of perfection. EPO is the primary drug used by long distance runners. It increases the oxygen in your blood. I have spoken with olympic trainers that explain how it is beneficial for a meet, but not for long term. By long term, I mean that the effects do not last long term and that you certainly don't want to use it long term. 

Most serious endurance athletes train in an oxygen deplete atmosphere, thus increasing lung capacity over time. The lungs actually expand and can hold more air. When they compete in a normal oxygen rich environment, they don't get winded nearly as easily...they take in more air full of oxygen.

When training in low oxygen environments comes to an end, and the body goes back to normally oxygenated air, the lunges shrink some...they revert to their initial size (to a degree, not 100%...or so it would seem).


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## exphys88 (Apr 21, 2012)

I have trained at altitude and it increases your performance at sea level rapidly.
In our human performance lab at the university I went to, we had an elevation chamber that would simulate up to 18000 ft.  We did various studies on the effects of altitude and performance and even hunger.


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## yzfrr11 (Apr 21, 2012)

Grozny said:


> Truly elite endurance athletes use epogen or blood doping techniques to gain this edge of perfection. EPO is the primary drug used by long distance runners. It increases the oxygen in your blood. I have spoken with olympic trainers that explain how it is beneficial for a meet, but not for long term. By long term, I mean that the effects do not last long term and that you certainly don't want to use it long term.
> 
> Most serious endurance athletes train in an oxygen deplete atmosphere, thus increasing lung capacity over time. The lungs actually expand and can hold more air. When they compete in a normal oxygen rich environment, they don't get winded nearly as easily...they take in more air full of oxygen.
> 
> When training in low oxygen environments comes to an end, and the body goes back to normally oxygenated air, the lunges shrink some...they revert to their initial size (to a degree, not 100%...or so it would seem).



Very accurate. Compared to EPO, everthing else is peanuts.


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## hoyle21 (Apr 21, 2012)

I believe our Olympic training facility is in Denver just for these reasons.


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## Digitalash (Apr 21, 2012)

Grozny said:


> Truly elite endurance athletes use epogen or blood doping techniques to gain this edge of perfection. EPO is the primary drug used by long distance runners. It increases the oxygen in your blood. I have spoken with olympic trainers that explain how it is beneficial for a meet, but not for long term. By long term, I mean that the effects do not last long term and that you certainly don't want to use it long term.
> 
> Most serious endurance athletes train in an oxygen deplete atmosphere, thus increasing lung capacity over time. The lungs actually expand and can hold more air. When they compete in a normal oxygen rich environment, they don't get winded nearly as easily...they take in more air full of oxygen.
> 
> When training in low oxygen environments comes to an end, and the body goes back to normally oxygenated air, the lunges shrink some...they revert to their initial size (to a degree, not 100%...or so it would seem).



Yes epo is definitely the best when it comes to cardiovascular endurance, AAS will increase red blood cell count and oxygen transport as well but it's main benefit is in muscular endurance and recovery from hard training. GH will help recovery as well. Also not only do the lungs expand but the body becomes more efficient in it's use of oxygen and the amount that can be taken from the blood in a given time frame. Meaning less oxygen is exhaled and wasted as well. The body is an amazing machine.

For those considering it just make sure to research thoroughly before using EPO, it can be very dangerous if misused


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## bjg (Apr 21, 2012)

hoyle21 said:


> BJG-after seeing your posts the last few weeks it seems like you should try posting in the TRT section.
> 
> Not everyone here is on TRT as an excuse to blast and cruise.   My T levels were at 172 at the age of 33 and I had never cycled at that point in time.   I'm also interested in hearing a different opinion, even if it does run contrary to my views.


ok will do


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 21, 2012)

bjg said:


> i know personally a pro marathon runner a 2h20mns  guy and i can assure you he does not take any steroids and he thinks it does not help at all...he takes other things and supplements but no hormones ....and he is regularly tested for banned substances
> banned substances other than steroids are used by endurance athletes, tour de france cyclists and triathletes....some do use steroids but it does not help in endurance.
> steroids will not help in most track and field events especially endurance events, jumping events ...
> it can help in sprinting 60 m and 100 m only ..it helps in the start of the race where acceleration requiring muscle strength is needed. but again too much muscles will slow you down at the end of the race....so it is a trade off and a calculated thing.
> ...



you are an idiot



yzfrr11 said:


> This is a very accurate post brother. I think that testosterone is only indicated to replete levels back to normal levels - total test can be strongly supressed to below 150 ng/dl during periods of intense training and racing. In this scenario, 150-200 mg/wk in divided doses can make a big difference. Similarly, thyroid and HGH should be replaced as well for optimal aerobic performance in my opinion.



no.. he is an idiot


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## bjg (Apr 21, 2012)

yzfrr11 said:


> High doses of anabolics definitely blocks aerobic performance. But low doses really boost recovery between workouts.


 here is something i would like to hear your opinion about : sometimes i train with a really big guy 28 years old maybe 6'4 and 240 lbs cut but a heavy AAS user ..i mean heavy user. and when we train (specially big lifts) for example benching ..he starts out really strong and reach heavier weights than me ( he will do 360 for 6 reps) but when we want to do a last real light weight 185 lbs high reps ( i don't rest too long between sets)..i can do it as if i just started with the same energy ..but comes his turn ..he barely can do it 4 times! his veins in his head look like they are going to explode and he is sweating and huffing and puffing and just cannot keep up for the rest of the workout..and i am more than 20 years older than him and 5'5 and 165-170 lbs.
would like to hear your reasoning on that


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## keith1569 (Apr 21, 2012)

yzfrr11 said:


> What dose did you run?



I did 150 test e a week and 300mg EQ a week for 16 week. I overall enjoyed it and got faster. Recovery and my knees didn't bother me as much.. Next time I may try 150mg deca


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## exphys88 (Apr 21, 2012)

This may just be the result of primarily training his ATP/cp pathway and very little glycolytic or aerobic training.  In other words he probably has very poor endurance.


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## bjg (Apr 21, 2012)

exphys88 said:


> This may just be the result of primarily training his ATP/cp pathway and very little glycolytic or aerobic training.  In other words he probably has very poor endurance.


yes but it is shockingly poor endurance ...i mean even if he never trained in his life he should be better than that....there must be something causing that ..not sure if the amount of AAS he is on has anything to do with that


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## Glycomann (Apr 21, 2012)

bjg said:


> here is something i would like to hear your opinion about : sometimes i train with a really big guy 28 years old maybe 6'4 and 240 lbs cut but a heavy AAS user ..i mean heavy user. and when we train (specially big lifts) for example benching ..he starts out really strong and reach heavier weights than me ( he will do 360 for 6 reps) but when we want to do a last real light weight 185 lbs high reps ( i don't rest too long between sets)..i can do it as if i just started with the same energy ..but comes his turn ..he barely can do it 4 times! his veins in his head look like they are going to explode and he is sweating and huffing and puffing and just cannot keep up for the rest of the workout..and i am more than 20 years older than him and 5'5 and 165-170 lbs.
> would like to hear your reasoning on that



His cardiovascular system is compromised.  At high doses even the smooth muscle in the vascular endothelium grows.  It gets stiff and can not function as well.  He may also have some AAS indiuced cardiac hypertrophy.  Hi BP does not help in this either and chances are he has that as well. Also red cells get very high with high dose prolonged use so the blood is viscous and harder to pump so there is more cardiac stress. If he goes off it will start to revert to normal in a couple of months. This is why people should cycle on and off if they are going to use.  most if not all the side effects are revertible if precautions and reasonable use is practiced.


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## heckler7 (Apr 21, 2012)

apparently steriods can be very effectice in endurance and speed, the Germans had a steroid program for their olympic team, and Marion Jones, who won three gold medals and two bronze medals in the Sydney 2000 Olympics, becoming the first female athlete to win five medals in track and field in one Olympics she was already becoming embroiled in a steroids scandal that put those achievements in question.


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## ~RaZr~ (Apr 21, 2012)

heckler7 said:


> apparently steriods can be very effectice in endurance and speed, the Germans had a steroid program for their olympic team, and Marion Jones, who won three gold medals and two bronze medals in the Sydney 2000 Olympics, becoming the first female athlete to win five medals in track and field in one Olympics she was already becoming embroiled in a steroids scandal that put those achievements in question.



Don't forget to add Johnson who used Winny in the Olympics and Landis who used Test during the TDF and the "Puerto 9" who were all thought to be part of an extensive blood-doping program (which included sauce) back in 2005. 

To the ones who think that the "elite" and the top level amateurs do NOT use....well...you are ignorant and let the media run your mind 

Yes, these guys and gals have awesome genetics and were lucky to be born with a "gift", but hard training, nutrition and sleep will only take you so far....


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 21, 2012)

heckler7 said:


> apparently steriods can be very effectice in endurance and speed, the Germans had a steroid program for their olympic team, and Marion Jones, who won three gold medals and two bronze medals in the Sydney 2000 Olympics, becoming the first female athlete to win five medals in track and field in one Olympics she was already becoming embroiled in a steroids scandal that put those achievements in question.



exactly...and that's just a small group from a HUGE list..

just one more reason why bjg is an enormous fucking idiot and shouldnt be allowed to post his bullshit here.


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## exphys88 (Apr 21, 2012)

You have to make a distinction between endurance athletes and sprinters.


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 21, 2012)

exphys88 said:


> You have to make a distinction between endurance athletes and sprinters.




of course, but then just think.... oh yeah EQ boom.. steroids can be great for improving endurance


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## exphys88 (Apr 21, 2012)

Yes, of course they can, but adding 20 lbs of lbm will slow somebody down.  So, it has to be balanced.


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 21, 2012)

exphys88 said:


> Yes, of course they can, but adding 20 lbs of lbm will slow somebody down.  So, it has to be balanced.



right, but that wasnt dipshit's assertion


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## exphys88 (Apr 21, 2012)

Lol, I haven't been following this thread too well I guess.


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## heckler7 (Apr 21, 2012)

my ukulele perfomance improves on cycle (suckit bjg)


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## hypno (Apr 23, 2012)

Grozny said:


> Truly elite endurance athletes use epogen or blood doping techniques to gain this edge of perfection. EPO is the primary drug used by long distance runners. ........
> ..



EPO is amazing for sure. You also are correct that you should not use it long term. Never use it if you are not fully aware of how to use or you will be asking for big trouble.

There is also Actovegin. Sometimes called The Gas Bus. It is kind of an EPO lite.


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## colorado (Apr 23, 2012)

hoyle21 said:


> I believe our Olympic training facility is in Denver just for these reasons.



Nope. It's here in Colorado Springs! 1,000 feet above Denver.


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