# Excuses for tall people



## suprfast (Nov 3, 2010)

What is the deal with tall people making excuses for not being able to lift heavy weight?  Two of my buddies that I workout with are strong but I put up more weight than both of them in just about every category.

Bench-Your arms are shorter you do not have to push the weight as far

Squats - you do not have to go as low as I do

Deads - I have to lift it twice as high

I am 5-8 maybe 5-9 on a good day.  Contestant one is 6-3 and contestant two is 6-8

Does height play a role or are they just girly men


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## SFW (Nov 3, 2010)

there is some truth to it but yes, its largely used as excuse. im 5'9" and constantly hear "if i was your height, blah blah blah" 

My response is usually


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## suprfast (Nov 3, 2010)

Does the gravitational pull increase as the tall guy lifts it an extra foot....no


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## SFW (Nov 3, 2010)

some lanky people dont have the body mechanics for squats, i know this for a fact. My compact ass is built for it. lower center of gravity does help a bit. columbu could outlift arnold anyday.


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## BillHicksFan (Nov 3, 2010)

It's the tall guys at my gym that seem to be able to lift more than others. I used to believe the excuses until I changed gyms and witnessed it for myself.
Poor guys look skinny as fuck nommater how much muscle they put on lol.


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## Gazhole (Nov 4, 2010)

The reason they are making excuses is because, simply, they are pussies. They want an excuse either not to work hard or to justify sloppy form or muscular imbalances.

Strongman competitors are pretty much 6ft and above. Most of them are nearer 7ft. They squat, deadlift, bench, press, and row more than anybody else on the planet almost, and they do it laughing.

Height is NOT an issue. Being a pussy IS.

Here is a friend of mine, he's doing 220kg / 485lbs ass to grass squats. I was videoing and his ass was touching his fucking calves. He is 6'4", and not a pussy:






YouTube Video











I always use this guy against people who tout this bullshit. His regular squat is over 700lbs raw. We need to buy new bars because he bent one of them setting a PR last week. Tell THAT to your friends.

To sum up - sure it might be harder for them to do this stuff, but does that mean it's impossible? No. They just need to fix technique, work out how to efficiently use their bodies, and work harder at the lifts. Excuses are for kids doing homework, not men lifting weights.


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## BillHicksFan (Nov 4, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> The reason they are making excuses is because, simply, they are pussies. They want an excuse either not to work hard or to justify sloppy form or muscular imbalances.
> 
> Strongman competitors are pretty much 6ft and above. Most of them are nearer 7ft. They squat, deadlift, bench, press, and row more than anybody else on the planet almost, and they do it laughing.
> 
> ...


 

Do you know the weight of this guy Gazhole? Thats a confident lift.


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## Gazhole (Nov 4, 2010)

BillHicksFan said:


> Do you know the weight of this guy Gazhole? Thats a confident lift.



Yeah, he's somewhere between 120kg and 130kg so about 270lbs bodyweight i guess? This was the first time he'd ever gone for a 1RM on ATG squats, so i've  no doubt he'll smash this when he cycles round to them again.

You should check out his other videos and also his site, great source of info.


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## fraseram (Nov 4, 2010)

some people do have to put more or less effort into some things depending on build for sure there is some truth to this...... that being said however........ WORK HARDER !! 
yes dont be a pussy 
I am 4'6 and have to start jogging at about 4 mph on the treadmill while everyone else would still be walking YES I DO have to output more energy to go the same speed as you ........ I can still leave your ass on the ground however because I work hard and am not afraid of the little bit of extra effort it takes me !!!!!! 
I lift more than people twice my weight and run atleast as fast if not faster and DEF longer than most too so put your excuses up there and


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## fufu (Nov 4, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> Height is NOT an issue. Being a pussy IS.



hahaha! so true!

Excuses only necessitate lesser performance. They do nothing to make you better.


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## gtbmed (Nov 4, 2010)

3 lbs. of bodyweight per inch of height and your leverages start to work well for you.  Your 6'8" friend needs to be a fairly lean 240 lbs. if he wants to move a lot of weight.


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## SilentBob187 (Nov 4, 2010)

At those heights it requires a higher calorie intake to maintain/gain weight and with that strength.  They have to eat more than us short folk.  But excuses aside they have greater surface area to fill with muscle than we do and if motivated they can surpass us in all those lifts.

I look at it the same way as I look at whining ectos, they just don't want to eat as much as they should.


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## davegmb (Nov 4, 2010)

Haha im 6'3" and although i do squats every week, they are by far my weakest exercise and love using the tall men cant squat thing to protect my ego so leave us tall, lanky, long legged guys alone. Still laughing at Gaz calling men who share my condition/delusion "pussies".......bit harsh lol.


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## Gazhole (Nov 4, 2010)

davegmb said:


> Haha im 6'3" and although i do squats every week, they are by far my weakest exercise and love using the tall men cant squat thing to protect my ego so leave us tall, lanky, long legged guys alone. Still laughing at Gaz calling men who share my condition/delusion "pussies".......bit harsh lol.





The thing is you CAN squat, Dave. If your performance isn't up to the level you want it to be, lets find out what that problem is and turn you into a beast.

I was a pussy last year when i started to accept i was never going to be a good squatter, but then i got angry and asked the best squatters in my gym for advice - i widened my stance, worked on depth with box squats, switched to low-bar, used scapular retraction/back arch/neural drive techniques, and drilled the fuck out of my squatting form.

264lbs x 1rm improved to 297lbs x 15rm in less than a year.

If you want any advice on improving technique, thats what the forum is for!


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## Gazhole (Nov 4, 2010)

fufu said:


> hahaha! so true!
> 
> Excuses only necessitate lesser performance. They do nothing to make you better.



Excuses are like weeds - cultivated in bullshit, and theres always more than one


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## Gazhole (Nov 4, 2010)

SilentBob187 said:


> I look at it the same way as I look at whining ectos, they just don't want to eat as much as they should.



A million times this.

I hate people who say they're hardgainers when they plainly aren't eating enough to sustain a child.

One guy said "oh man, i can't eat any more!" then proceeded to explain this diet to friend of mine (a trainer):

Breakfast - glass of milk
Lunch - a wrap
Dinner - Chicken and rice

WHAT THE FUCK!! This guy was also working out in the gym 3-5 times a week, casual soccer, and basketball training with a game on the weekend. Close to 10 exercise sessions a week in total.

Boggles the mind.


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## rockhardly (Nov 4, 2010)

I agree with all the comments on work ethic and just stfu and lift hard you sniveling lil bitches........However, Work(W)=Force(F) x Displacement(d).  Therefore, the longer the distance thru which a force is exerted to an object, the greater the amount of work done on that object.  In other words, a person squating thru a 3 foot ROM is going to do more work than a person squating thru a 2.5 foot ROM.

So, let's take a 5 foot guy with a 2.5 foot ROM and a 6 foot guy with a 3 foot ROM.  Equating the two guys in terms of the above equation, F x d(5ft)=F x d(6ft).  If they are both lifting the same amount of weight the force (F) can be removed from the equation.  For the 6ft guy with a 3ft ROM doing 10 reps, d=3ft x 10 reps=30ft of distance.  For the 5ft guy with a 2.5ft ROM, the required # of reps to equal the amount of work done by the 6ft guy in 10 reps is # of reps for 2.5ft ROM=30ft/2.5ft=12 reps.  

Conclusion: All else equal, a 5ft guy would have to do 12 reps to equal the work of a 6ft guy doing 10 reps.  

Note: ROM numbers are arbitrary and the greater the difference between the two, the larger the differnece in required # of reps.


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## davegmb (Nov 4, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> The thing is you CAN squat, Dave. If your performance isn't up to the level you want it to be, lets find out what that problem is and turn you into a beast.
> 
> I was a pussy last year when i started to accept i was never going to be a good squatter, but then i got angry and asked the best squatters in my gym for advice - i widened my stance, worked on depth with box squats, switched to low-bar, used scapular retraction/back arch/neural drive techniques, and drilled the fuck out of my squatting form.
> 
> ...


 
I know i was joking.........wider stance helped increase my squat numbers considerably but for some reason with a wider stance i cant break paralel........not sure why. However, with a closer stance i can get down deeper which is what i now want to do but with obviously considerably less weight, but im not worrying about the weight thing at the moment just working on perfecting the deep squat and move up in weight somewhere down the line. Back arch and neural drive tips you told me work great though and still using them.
That said and i know ill probably get peoples backs up for saying this but, Dorian Yates states in an article that i previously posted that if your of a certain build/body shape, that squats may not be the best thing for you as they werent for him. Yates must know his stuff surely
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/115537-dorian-yates-squats-body-type.html


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## Phineas (Nov 4, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> The thing is you CAN squat, Dave. If your performance isn't up to the level you want it to be, lets find out what that problem is and turn you into a beast.
> 
> I was a pussy last year when i started to accept i was never going to be a good squatter, but then i got angry and asked the best squatters in my gym for advice - i widened my stance, worked on depth with box squats, switched to low-bar, used scapular retraction/back arch/neural drive techniques, and drilled the fuck out of my squatting form.
> 
> ...



You and I seriously need to talk. I don't know my 1 RM squat, but based on 5 and 3 RM it would be around 280 - 285 lbs. If you went that far in one year then I want to know what you're doing. 

Here's what I've done in the last year to improve squats (I've gone from 195 lbs 5 RM at half-way to parallel (sad, I know) in September 2009 to 245 lb 5 RM to parallel - 10 or 15 degrees below (sometimes I fall short and only hit parallel):

(1.) Used box squats to learn proper depth, and how to explode "out of the hole"

(2.) For a while I used weight plates under my heels to compenate for tight achilies to I could gain confidence going deep with heavy weights, without having to use wider, unstable stances. I wanted a closer centre of gravity while I learned proper core control with heavy weights.

(3.) Recently widened my stance so I don't need the plates anymore. Took some getting used to, but it feels great and natural now.

(4.) Worked on hip drive. I brought in power cleans and also permanently switched my deadlift to sumo stance, which I find fits my proportions anyway.

(5.) Worked on actual "core" work. I used heavy stability work like overhead supports, heavy squat holds, very heavy planks, and also overhead squats (I used my new wider stance during them so I could develop core control in that compromised position and develop more hip stability too)

(6.) I used a technique you mentioned where you drive the chest out and try to "pull the bar apart". That really helps, actually.

(7.) I also tried clearing my mind before sets. I used to overthink heavy sets, and pysche myself out. Now, I get a quick pysche up, and just do it. It works every time.

(8.) I also began heavy squatting EVERY squat session. I used to refrain from heavy lifting. I'd do it maybe once a month and a half to two months. I always now perform back squats heavy and low reps, with a powerlifting approach to intensity progression (though I'm currently using back got back, which is more just heavy volume...still working though).


What more can I do? I want a 5RM of 300 a year from now (or less!).


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## davegmb (Nov 4, 2010)

Phineas said:


> You and I seriously need to talk. I don't know my 1 RM squat, but based on 5 and 3 RM it would be around 280 - 285 lbs. If you went that far in one year then I want to know what you're doing.
> 
> Here's what I've done in the last year to improve squats (I've gone from 195 lbs 5 RM at half-way to parallel (sad, I know) in September 2009 to 245 lb 5 RM to parallel - 10 or 15 degrees below (sometimes I fall short and only hit parallel):
> 
> ...


 
You need to start a journal Phineas with the rest of us..........no more excuses, want to see how you set up your workouts and what weight your shifting


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## Gazhole (Nov 4, 2010)

So far you've done great, Phineas! Thats an awesome increase, and it sounds like you've really got into the groove with your stance and form now.

Couple more things you can do to help, if you aren't already:

1a. As well as pulling the bar apart, when you get underneath the bar before you take the weight push the chest out and pin the scapula together tightly. I find it helps taking a very narrow hand placement so i literally don't have a choice, but my shoulder mobility is another thing i've worked on a lot. Keep this tightness all through the set. Your entire back should be solid as a brick wall all the way through.

1b. You can work on shoulder mobility doing dislocations - How to Perform Shoulders Dislocations | StrongLifts.com


2a. Switch to low bar squats. Instead of having the bar on your traps, have it on your rear delts. Using that narrow hand placement and squeezing the scapula together, you'll make a shelf with your lower traps and delts to put the bar on. Wrist strength will be tested. This makes the weight closer to your centre of gravity.

2b. You may need to arch your back a bit more during your squat to accomodate this, because it might feel like the bar is going to slide off, haha. To take the pulling the bar apart technique a step further, you can help stability by trying to bend it around your back aswell.


3. Spread the floor. You might do this already, spreading the floor at the bottom of the rep is like leg drive in the bench - it really helps powering the weight up. Engages the hips and keeps the knees more stable too. Just try and spread the floor between your legs apart by pushing outwards with your feet.


4. Lately i've been tilting my head back to help keep my traps solid, i still look forward but my head is in a position where my eyes are pointing to the ceiling. Don't actually push your head back or you'll probably injure your neck, but it seems to help.


5. Squat a lot! Going heavy is great, but i've been doing a lot more volume the last month or two and it's helped no end. Do your heavys and get used to having a lot of weight on your back, but don't discount the value of sets of 10+ for not only drilling form, but building up endurance in the scapular stabilizers, traps, and supporting musculature in the back that you'll be using to keep solid.


Other than that, we've both come to similar conclusions about how to get the most out of squatting.


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## Gazhole (Nov 4, 2010)

davegmb said:


> You need to start a journal Phineas with the rest of us..........no more excuses, want to see how you set up your workouts and what weight your shifting



I also agree with this. Get it done!


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## suprfast (Nov 4, 2010)

As always GAZ comes in and puts the dick slap on fallacies.  Your buddy is a beast.  Now I want to get in the gym and do some squats.


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## fufu (Nov 4, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> So far you've done great, Phineas! Thats an awesome increase, and it sounds like you've really got into the groove with your stance and form now.
> 
> Couple more things you can do to help, if you aren't already:
> 
> ...



I agree with all of this.

Tight upper back is HUGE. Whether or not you can maintain a tight upper back coming out of the hole is often the deal breaker when it comes to 1 rep maxes. It helps you to keep the weight loaded over your heels and hips and prevents you from doing a "good morning" on the way up. It also helps you direct force upward, because when you "good morning" the weight up, you lose a lot of that force doing the forward leaning movement. 

Pinch those shoulder blades back. Focus on maintaining that shoulder position while you move down, and when you hit the hole, really pinch as hard you can, and then focus on raising your head back and up out of the hole. I find this is a good form cue.

If you posted a video of your squat from a front view and a side view, it would be a huge asset as far as people assessing your form to see what you can work on.


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## suprfast (Nov 4, 2010)

Thanks on this one FUFU.  I tend to do good mornings on heavy heavy weight when squatting.  Not intentionally of course.  



fufu said:


> I agree with all of this.
> 
> Tight upper back is HUGE. Whether or not you can maintain a tight upper back coming out of the hole is often the deal breaker when it comes to 1 rep maxes. It helps you to keep the weight loaded over your heels and hips and prevents you from doing a "good morning" on the way up. It also helps you direct force upward, because when you "good morning" the weight up, you lose a lot of that force doing the forward leaning movement.
> 
> ...


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## Gazhole (Nov 4, 2010)

fufu said:


> Pinch those shoulder blades back. Focus on maintaining that shoulder position while you move down, and when you hit the hole, really pinch as hard you can, and then *focus on raising your head back and up out of the hole. I find this is a good form cue.
> *



Great tip!

I've only recently started doing this. I still forget sometimes, but it definitely helps. The body really does follow the head, and this applies to Deadlifts too.


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## Gazhole (Nov 4, 2010)

suprfast said:


> As always GAZ comes in and puts the dick slap on fallacies.  Your buddy is a beast.  Now I want to get in the gym and do some squats.



The annoying thing is that he's the same age as me, has been lifting about the same time as me, and like me has always been natural. So basically, i have no excuses and feel weak as shit every time i train with this guy. Keeps my ego in check though, not to mention inspiring the fuck out of me when my motivation is low.

I attribute most of my success the last two years to the people in this gym. Everybody is awesome at what they do, and its a constant challenge to keep up with the pack. Training with people who are better, bigger, stronger, faster, more motivated, and more badass than you are is the best thing anybody could ever do.

I'd rather be average among gods than king of the worms.

EDIT: This isn't contradictory to what i said before about only competing with yourself, btw. Don't try to beat them, try to beat yourself to become them.


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## gtbmed (Nov 4, 2010)

One thing that I never see people recommend that IMO helps incredibly with squatting:

Work on your hip flexibility.

Honestly, I could probably count on 1 hand the guys that go to my gym that have good hip flexibility.  Tight hip flexors are incredibly common and they really prevent you from staying balanced while squatting.

The more I performed overhead squats, snatches, and overhead lunges as part of warmups and as part of my training, the better my squat form got.  Hip flexibility is really crucial to squatting correctly.

Another thing - squat with high frequency.  I know people will tell you that this will lead to overtraining, but ignore them.  Don't ramp up the frequency too high right away, but slowly build yourself up to a 2nd day of squatting and possibly a 3rd.  It really helps your form when you are performing the lifts multiple times per week.


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## Gissurjon (Nov 5, 2010)

suprfast said:


> What is the deal with tall people making excuses for not being able to lift heavy weight?  Two of my buddies that I workout with are strong but I put up more weight than both of them in just about every category.
> 
> Bench-Your arms are shorter you do not have to push the weight as far
> 
> ...



honestly, they are at a disadvantage for one simple reson. in the time it took your body to grow the whole 5 feet 8 inches they had to grow 7-12 inches more thus likely restricting movements of certain joints and decreasing overall flexibility. i would not be so happy about outlifting them but i would be worried if you didnt. in a fight they would probably whoop you though so i would stay off the whole "girly" subject.


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## Gissurjon (Nov 5, 2010)

...or they might just be so tired from getn more pussy then the short guy...


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## suprfast (Nov 5, 2010)

I assume you are over 6 ft and upset about this thread.  It's okay we understand. 

Leverage is he only disadvantage I can see.


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## Gazhole (Nov 5, 2010)

Also size, be it height or muscle mass, isn't proportional to your ability to fight. Just saying.


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## GearsMcGilf (Nov 5, 2010)

It's partially true.  When you're tall, you have to move the weight further.  Therefore, it can harder for taller guys to move the same amount of weight.  On the other hand, taller guys usually weigh more and are larger overall than our midget counterparts.  So, it does balance out, for the most part.  

It's also true that it is harder for us taller guys to pack on the mass.  But, when we do, we look a helluva lot better, sexier, and more impressive than you short fucks.  We also tend to get a lot more pussy than short guys.  Hence, just a few of the reasons why you short motherfuckers look upon us with such envy.

One benefit of being short is that you can find clothes that fit in any store.  Unfortunately, you just don't look as good in them.


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## Gissurjon (Nov 5, 2010)

suprfast said:


> I assume you are over 6 ft and upset about this thread. It's okay we understand.
> 
> Leverage is he only disadvantage I can see.


 
bet your ass im upset!!! im raging!!


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## cshea2 (Nov 5, 2010)

haha, look at what this thread has turned into. I'm 5 11' so I don't really have an advantage or disadvantage either way. Anybody at any size can get crazy strong. The only thing is bodybuilding is probably easier if your short. You just have to find the sport that your built for.

And gaz, that squat increase in less than a year right there is unreal man. I have had a surge in my squat poundages lately, I'm squatting twice a week now one with a box, one without.


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## suprfast (Nov 5, 2010)

Gissurjon said:


> bet your ass im upset!!! im raging!!



you can slap us short people across the face with your "rage".


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## Ryan Bracewell (Nov 5, 2010)

Problem for most tall guys is that they don't eat enough cals to get any muscle mass.  Once they create a build they can usually lift a decent amount.  Look at strongman, a large portion of the top pros in the world are 6'3" or taller


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## Merkaba (Nov 5, 2010)

Gissurjon said:


> honestly, they are at a disadvantage for one simple reson. in the time it took your body to grow the whole 5 feet 8 inches they had to grow 7-12 inches more thus likely restricting movements of certain joints and decreasing overall flexibility. i would not be so happy about outlifting them but i would be worried if you didnt. in a fight they would probably whoop you though so i would stay off the whole "girly" subject.



Why do people say shit like this as if the muscle and ligaments don't grow along with the bone and everything else....???  And of course the male fighting ego part of the brain has to show up.  

----------------

Why do people think that moving through your body's natural range of motion makes a difference when it comes to height? Why is the head circumference or the pointy-ness of the elbow not a factor?  Shit I know more shorter people who can't squat than I do tall people.  Noone can fucking squat.  The height of these people don't make much of a difference that I've found or seen.  It's a coin toss in my book


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## Gazhole (Nov 6, 2010)

cshea2 said:


> And gaz, that squat increase in less than a year right there is unreal man. I have had a surge in my squat poundages lately, I'm squatting twice a week now one with a box, one without.



Nice! Box squats will do a hell of a lot for your strength coming out of the hole. I felt way more confident at the bottom of regular squats from doing them.


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## roastchicken (Nov 6, 2010)

Does nobody employ the technique of 'wrapping the elbows under the bar' ? - by this i mean in a high bar olympic squat position you should strive to have your forearms perpendicular to the ground and directly beneath the bar whilst lifting the chest high and proud, imagine a string attached to each elbow pulling them forward and beneath the bar similiar to a front squat position when you attempt to raise the elbows. 

This would mean activating the latissimus dorsi as opposed to the rhomboids and trapezius, scapula retraction is not neccesary when a more uniform tightness in the entire back can be achieved WITH a more upright torso allowing the lifter to complete a deeper squat. This will create less stress on the lumbar spine and coupled with the standard abdominal 'block' means that the torso can act appropriately as the link between the bar and your legs and hips as they drive up.

IMO this technique for high bar squtting suits the taller individual as opposed to a wider low bar position with a shallower torso angle. Of course we want to achieve maximum depth whilst keeping form and posture, in a way a wider stance does cheat the lifter out of a few precious inches and ultimately the true rock bottom of their squat

just my 2cents  discuss!

R


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## gtbmed (Nov 6, 2010)

Roast, personally I have found that high bar squats are a lot more comfortable than wide stance powerlifting-style squats.  But I am by no means tall (~5'10").

I think which style of squatting you prefer usually depends on proportions.  For those with longer legs and shorter torsos, a powerlifting-style squat usually helps due to a short moment arm.  For those with long torsos and short legs, a low bar squat is really tough because the moment arm is longer.

I just think you have to evaluate your body's proportions and experiment with different stances and bar placements until you find a position that is comfortable.  I was uncomfortable squatting for a long time until I switched to Oly style squats and immediately the movement felt very natural.


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## Gissurjon (Nov 6, 2010)

Merkaba said:


> Why do people say shit like this as if the muscle and ligaments don't grow along with the bone and everything else....??? And of course the male fighting ego part of the brain has to show up.


 
It's not a coincidence that taller people are more like to have tendon and ligament related injuries and pains when playing sports due to the fact that the bones are growing faster than than the rest. Osgood-Schlatter disease (quadriceps become to short pulling on the patellar tendons pulling on the shin bone) is just an example of that. If u have two 5' ten year olds, one grows 12 inches over the next 4 years the other one only 5 inches, are they gonna be equal when it comes to flexibility? I just dont believe you believe that. take it from a semi-tall dude 6'4 who has played ball with taller guys all my life.

and yea u right fightin has nothing to do with nothing in this post


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## Gissurjon (Nov 6, 2010)

I can


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## Merkaba (Nov 6, 2010)

Gissurjon said:


> It's not a coincidence that taller people are more like to have tendon and ligament related injuries and pains when playing sports due to the fact that the bones are growing faster than than the rest. Osgood-Schlatter disease (quadriceps become to short pulling on the patellar tendons pulling on the shin bone) is just an example of that. If u have two 5' ten year olds, one grows 12 inches over the next 4 years the other one only 5 inches, are they gonna be equal when it comes to flexibility? I just dont believe you believe that. take it from a semi-tall dude 6'4 who has played ball with taller guys all my life.
> 
> and yea u right fightin has nothing to do with nothing in this post



Well of course there is a difference.  All I'm saying is that it shouldn't be an excuse.  Will a taller person have more fight when it comes to higher weight.  Of course. There's a difference in leverage.  How many guys want to workout with less weight, or do body weight squats?  My point is that you need to be squatting unless you have a disease or deformity. 

Flexibility between two growth phases between individuals: I'd have to see someone do some kind of research on this.  If all else remains equal maybe the faster grower would be less flexible.  But flexibility and the golgi response can be altered.  Who actually works on remaining flexible while they grow?  Might make a difference.  

I'm 5-10.5 and had osgood.  One treatment at my chiropractor and it never even acted like it wanted to come back.  Of course this was in my 20's.  So it couldve been related to gym work.  But how many young teens growing practice flexibility, opposing work-groups or anything besides more athleticism, girls and games? Especially over the past few years.  Men and young men usually overtrain and under nurture, as we've discussed around here almost daily, and diet usually sucks as well.  I'm sure all of that doesn't help. But one must ask why is a whole subset of humans getting a "disease"  during a certain phase of their life?


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