# Funny analysis of Religion



## mmafiter (Jan 11, 2003)

If you are easily offended or you are strictly religious you may not want to read this. Just warning you. I'm not trying to start a religion war, I just thought this was a funny analysis!

This was NOT written by me, I stole it from another forum.

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Do you have to believe it all or does it fall apart once you start to pick and choose? 
In Genesis we have our three first characters of our story... God, Adam, and Eve. 

Eve eats a piece of fruit and from then on humanity is considered a sinful species. Instead of god turning his Etch-a-Sketch world upside down and shaking it, he lets them procreate and make many more sinners. So being the all knowing god he lets the sinning go on and on. 

Then many years later he see's the error of his ways and decides that mass genocide is the best solution. It starts to rain....but being the nice guy that he is, he tells a man named Noah to build a boat that would carry 2 of each animal and his family. Ok now he takes some time to get 2 of each animal and figures out the diet for each species. 

He stocks up on food for them and his family. He goes to his local Home Depot and buys some tools and shovels(or whatever they had access to back then). Tools for the boat and shovels for all the shit the animals will create after the rain gets bad. 

So Noah becomes a nautical genius from the desert. 40 days and nights later he has a sandbar. Everyone gets out and starts the whole process over agian. 

Well being that original sin was carried down to even Noahs family they didn't even have a second chance to be good(although "second" implies they weren't good the first time, which is misleading considering the original sin wasn't even theirs). Oh well Gods mistake. So people start reproducing agian left and right. 

Then about 2000 years ago God decides to "rape" a virginal young woman so he can have this women give birth to his son. 

I know girls that try to lock guys into relationships this way too. Oh well God so loved his people (not the ones he flooded and killed) then he hired some jews (is this how they got the name The Choosen People?) to knock his son off by nailing him to some wood. 

Well Jesus dies for our sins....but was it really a sacrifice after god went back on his word and resurected his son? Oh well now everyone is saved if they want to be...but it's allready been printed that he will do it all over agian (genocide). 

Ok I know that is like the Douglas Adams cliff notes of the book. I know I missed alot of the killing, sex and incest...but Im pretty sure most of you all being good believers or decenters have read the book. 
Now my question is...can you pick and choose parts of the book to believe in and yet still have the remainder of the book relevant? 

I think once you start to disbelieve any parts the continuity of the book is destroyed. Now Im wondering if anyone would agree with that or disagree with that? Is it a religion based on a buffet or is it bite size where you have to take it all at once?


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## ZECH (Jan 11, 2003)

you must believe the whole book is inspired by God and is God's word. No picking and choosing....that is where all the different beliefs comes from. Everyone believes what they want depending on how they live.


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 11, 2003)

Just like a moron to quote the bible but never read it
lets see Gen : two animals ya sure about that? num nuts
wrong! READ IT OR FIND IT

You work out your own salvation with fear and trimbling.

Be assured God is not mocked


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## coleman (Jan 11, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Everyone believes what they want depending on how they live.



yes, i use that whenever it comes to a religious debate. 

religious ppl always seem to fire up more than non-believers and i'd rather not have an argument over something that can't be proved either way.


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## CRASHMAN (Jan 12, 2003)

i'm not gonna touch this thread with a 10 foot pole......except to up my post whore count ..........and to see what everyone else says


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## Rissole (Jan 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> you must believe the whole book is inspired by God and is God's word. No picking and choosing....that is where all the different beliefs comes from. Everyone believes what they want depending on how they live.


Unless they think what you said in the first part of your statement


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## Rissole (Jan 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by mmafiter *_
> Then about 2000 years ago God decides to "rape" a virginal young woman so he can have this women give birth to his son.


This is the statement that disgusts me more than any...


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## mmafiter (Jan 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by CRASHMAN *_
> i'm not gonna touch this thread with a 10 foot pole......except to up my post whore count ..........and to see what everyone else says



Yeah, I just want to see what people had to say about this as well.


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## Arnold (Jan 12, 2003)

I think that Jesse Ventura said it best:

_"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers."_

here is an article about it: http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/ventura1.htm

sorry, I do not mean to offend any religeous people here, that is just my opinion.


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## mmafiter (Jan 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I think that Jesse Ventura said it best:
> 
> _"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers."_
> ...



Everyone is entitled to thier opinions.


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## Arnold (Jan 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by mmafiter *_
> Everyone is entitled to thier opinions.



I know, but for some reason highly religeous people (like my own family: mother, father, sister) get very upset with people like me!


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## mmafiter (Jan 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I know, but for some reason highly religeous people (like my own family: mother, father, sister) get very upset with people like me!



I find I get similar responses in my family as well. Hell, I even get a response from my sister who is a die hard believer of the supernatural. We would get into many heated discussions about the authenticity of ghosts, spirits,etc.

I remember one time, my mother took a picture of me and when it came back from the developing lab, thier was a faint white squiggle mark around the top of my head. My sister was convinced that I had an angel looking over my shoulder protecting me! I tried to explain to her that it could have been anything that made that mark, but she wouldn't listen.

I remember another time, she said she was convinced I was my father reincarnated. My father died 2 months before I was born. She said the resemblance was uncanny! I mentioned a little thing called DNA to her, but to no avail. Fucking backwoods retards!

So, my point I guess is people sometimes put the blinders on and won't listen to any deviation of "thier" truth. I don't mean they have to accept someone trying to find fault in thier beliefs, but I don't understand the anger and belief that this particular way is the only way it can be.

BTW, my brother and his family are very religious, and when I'm visiting I respect thier religion, until they start pushing it on me or cross a moral barrier I have set for my family. Then I politely ask that they respect my wishes. They do, but they always have to try at least once every visit to convert me.


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## CRASHMAN (Jan 12, 2003)

Wait if you get murdered by god do you still go to heaven?


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## Arnold (Jan 12, 2003)

well, I guess you have to believe that heaven exists.


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## CRASHMAN (Jan 12, 2003)

Hypotheticly??.....(spell?)


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## irontime (Jan 13, 2003)

And here comes IT to stir the pot a bit,  sorry folks, I gotta.

I have done some studies into religion and one thing that really grabbed my attention was the following;
god knows everything that is going to happen before it happens.
Ok that makes sense, all the prophecies in the bible have come true, he knew about Alexandre the great, WWI, etc, hell he knew thousands of years ago that I would be writing this one. So here is my point.

If god knows everything that is going to happen before it happens then he knew what was going to happen when he created Satan, Adam and Eve, Hitler, etc. So in theory god made everything to happen that way as he creates everything. So basically every rape, murder, torture, etc. Is because god made it to happen that way. He just created Satan so that there would be someone to point the finger at instead of himself.

Just a thought that may lead to some pondering.


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## ZECH (Jan 13, 2003)

No, No! He gives everyone a choice. It's up to them to decide which way!


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## irontime (Jan 13, 2003)

But if it is already known to him what is going to happen and he makes us, do we really have a choice, or do we just think we do?


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## coleman (Jan 13, 2003)

i don't have any problem at all with the morals behind religion. 

but all this stuff bout hell and heaven is where i lose interest...to me, they were created by people afraid of dieing and passing away forever.

also, fundamentalists who say science is wrong and the planet is only a few thousand years old and dinosaur fossils are either wrong or "planted there" by god annoy me...that and those who believe in genisis. it goes against everything we know about the formation of planetary systems


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## ZECH (Jan 13, 2003)

If there is not a heaven or hell, what happens to us when we die??
IT, Even if he does know, I still think he gives us a choice to make. He doesn't make it for us.


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## coleman (Jan 13, 2003)

when we die, that's it. who we are is simply a set of electrical signals in the brain, i don't believe in souls or anything like that.


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## Rusty (Jan 13, 2003)

This shit is to deep for me......Cant we just tell each other to FuQ Off ............


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## coleman (Jan 13, 2003)

sounds like a plan


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## ShaqFu (Jan 13, 2003)

Any religion is difficult to follow without a little ignorance.. I think they have a word for it too.. "Faith".


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## Jodi (Jan 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> If there is not a heaven or hell, what happens to us when we die??
> IT, Even if he does know, I still think he gives us a choice to make. He doesn't make it for us.



Reinarnation!  Our souls move on.  JMO!


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## ShaqFu (Jan 13, 2003)

And another thing.. the whole concept of a God in our image and a world away from this one set out just for us all seems kind of vain.

What's so special about us anyway? So we have opposable thumbs and sophisticated means of communicating. Big freakin deal! We're just one of a million other species on this planet.

I've never found another person who felt that way though.. and when that happens, it's usually a sign that you're way freakin off..


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## Jodi (Jan 13, 2003)

> What's so special about us anyway? So we have opposable thumbs and sophisticated means of communicating. Big freakin deal! We're just one of a million other species on this planet.



Actually I feel this way.  I don't want anybody to argue with me or try and change my mind, but, I don't see how our souls are any different from a dog's soul or any other creature on this earth.


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## ShaqFu (Jan 13, 2003)

Sweet 
I'm glad someone else agrees with me.

I'm not with you on the re-incarnation thing though.. but everyone's entitled to their own interpretation. It's not like anyone can actually prove you wrong anyway.


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## Rissole (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> No, No! He gives everyone a choice. It's up to them to decide which way!


Sounds like these fellas have made their choice Rosco,
"the harvest is white"


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## Tboy (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_
> created Satan, Adam and Eve, Hitler, etc. So in theory god made everything to happen that way as he creates everything. So basically every rape, murder, torture, etc. Is because god made it to happen that way. He just created Satan so that there would be someone to point the finger at instead of himself.



satan was not "created".  fallen or cast out angel is the word.

God has decided to let man run his course. Wether it be self destruction or good, its our choice.  

I know some of you would never admit it, but chrisianity is keeping most of you alive now as I type.  Without morals in place and the 10 commandments setting that foundation, it would be "legal" to kill anyone we choose at any time we choose.

The joke, I thought, was less than humorous.     But, that's just me.


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## mmafiter (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> satan was not "created".  fallen or cast out angel is the word.
> 
> God has decided to let man run his course. Wether it be self destruction or good, its our choice.
> ...



I'm not saying that religion is a bad thing at all! The ten commandments, loving thy neighbour.....all good stuff! And I agree we certainly have many benefits as a society because of religion.

My problem however is the percieved superiority of many religious people and thier need to convert as many people as possible. Also, the anger at thought provoking questions, leaves something to be desired. 

Was the author of this letter at the begining of this thread a callous idiot? Yes, but he did bring up a few interesting questions. 

For the record, I do believe in God, but my God doesn't judge others, or get angry when others don't believe in him. I have a friend from work who's quite active in his church, and he's the only one in this whole city who has gotten my family to go to a church function. Why, because he played it cool and didn't try to convert me or make us feel guilty about something. He simply said, "Hey, my church group are going on an outing, do you and your family want to tag along?" We had a great time and I met some very nice people.


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## Tboy (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by mmafiter *_
> We had a great time and I met some very nice people.



Suprised?


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## mmafiter (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> Suprised?



No. But I was suprised that they didn't start "the push" when we got there. We enjoyed ourselves and would definately return if asked again.


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## irontime (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> I know some of you would never admit it, but chrisianity is keeping most of you alive now as I type.  Without morals in place and the 10 commandments setting that foundation, it would be "legal" to kill anyone we choose at any time we choose.


It is because of Christianity that mass murders and tortures have taken place. For example the Salem Witch trials. It was based on the biblical script 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.' if it wasn't for that script thousands of people may not have been brutally tortured by 'god-loving christians' for days on end and then burnt at the stake. 

Every war that occurs the two sides justify their actions because they are 'doing gods will.' So does christianity really prevent mass murder, or condone it?


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## ALBOB (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm not going to argue against what you've said IT but be careful, don't lay all the blame on Christianity.  There are tons of other religions who have been every bit as violent, if not more so, than Christianity.  In light of recent events Muslim comes to mind.  And while Judaism may seem like the religion of the persecuted over many centuries, they're responsible for their share of death and destruction also.  I think we can agree on the bottom line, religion is responsible for more wars, death, destruction and overall suffering than all other causes combined.


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## craig777 (Jan 14, 2003)

Well, I guess here is how I look at it. 

I'm a Christian and I am going to heaven when I die.

OK, for the people that believe when we die, we die end of story. If you are right and I am wrong I don't lose anything. I still die end of story. 

If I am right and you are wrong then I go to heaven for all eternity and you go to hell for all eternity. Eternity is a long time.

If I was a gambling man I would say this is a bad bet, but to each his own.


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## Arnold (Jan 14, 2003)

Do you all relize that there are many, many other religeons that are non-christian?

Let's take Buddhism for an example, there are millions of Asians that follow this belief/religeon and many probably know nothing about Christianity. Do you really think that they are going to "hell" and they are all wrong and you christians are all right? 

If you take religeons as a whole the majority of the world is non-christian.


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## Tboy (Jan 14, 2003)

Christianity and religion are 2 different things.  Christianity is the belief in Christ (Jesus).   Religion besically lumps all beliefs into one deal.   The Muslim group is known for it's violence and hatred toward all other religious beliefs.


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## Tboy (Jan 14, 2003)

that was meant for IT


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## Jodi (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_
> It is because of Christianity that mass murders and tortures have taken place. For example the Salem Witch trials. It was based on the biblical script 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.' if it wasn't for that script thousands of people may not have been brutally tortured by 'god-loving christians' for days on end and then burnt at the stake.
> 
> Every war that occurs the two sides justify their actions because they are 'doing gods will.' So does christianity really prevent mass murder, or condone it?


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## Tboy (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by mmafiter *_
> No. But I was suprised that they didn't start "the push" when we got there. We enjoyed ourselves and would definately return if asked again.




Carefull there dude... you might catch what they got.


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## ALBOB (Jan 14, 2003)

I think one of the major problems with organized religions is they're an all or nothing proposition.  Using Prince's reply to Craig would imply that EITHER Christians OR Buddhists are going to heaven, why can't it be both?  What's wrong with just saying God (or whatever entity you want to acknowledge) wants you to live your life by certain rules and if you do, when you die you'll go to a special place that's really nice.  (Heaven, Nirvana, Val Halla, etc.)  Some people may/do say that's an overly simplistic view of religion but I don't think so, I think it's VERY simple, be a good person and you'll go to heaven.


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## craig777 (Jan 14, 2003)

I guess I would answer that Albob with asking who gets to decide what is good and what is not. Some religions may say that killing 5,000 people by flying a plane into three buildings is a great thing. Some may not see it that way.

What is a good person, and if this is the case then I am good to go. If not then I am still good to go. 

Where are these rules that we have to live by.

Just my thoughts and beliefs.


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## Tboy (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Do you really think that they are going to "hell" and they are all wrong and you christians are all right?




No.  Believe it or not there are a lot of so called christians that may not make it.  If you believe the Bible, it says two shall be in the field, one shall be taken and one shall be left.   There are good Muslims.  There are good buddhists also etc..

Just because you belong to a certain religion doesnt mean your in or out (of heaven).

When the time comes don't look for me, cause I'll be gone 

If you are gambling that there is no God and there is no heaven or hell...  what if you are wrong?  It's not worth it.  Not in a million years.

Being in IT you know, you should always have contingency plan.


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## ALBOB (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_ Some religions may say that killing 5,000 people by flying a plane into three buildings is a great thing. Some may not see it that way.



Hmmm, VERY good point.  I guess the best way to boil it down is to say "If you agree with ME you're a good person."   

(Sorry, when I run out of logic I revert to adolescent humor.  )


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## Arnold (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> The Muslim group is known for it's violence and hatred toward all other religious beliefs.



Really?

Where did you get that information?


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## Arnold (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> If you are gambling that there is no God and there is no heaven or hell...  what if you are wrong?  It's not worth it.  Not in a million years.



I do not think of it that way. You see believeing in religeon as an insurance policy, you're covered just in case it's true.

I feel that if there is a god he gave me/us the intellect to be skeptical and utilize science, and science tells me/us that the majority of what the bible says is bunk.


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## Tboy (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Really?
> 
> Where did you get that information?




Hmm....   the Quran basically states that its ok to kill Jews and Christians.  Hence the "holy war" on us U.S.  that the middle is always talking about.   they believe that if you take out a christian or a jew for allah, you'll get 50(?) virgins when you get to heaven.

You've never heard of this?


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## cornfed (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_
> But if it is already known to him what is going to happen and he makes us, do we really have a choice, or do we just think we do?


Oh, shiznit here I come.... 
I'll keep it brief and try not to stir up shtick, but here's your answer.

As for the creation of sin:
God gave man free will, and therefore limitless options on what actions to take.  Man perverted or challenged "good" things created by God creating Rape from Sex, Hate from Love, Lust from attraction, Covetiousness from admiration, etc...   God did not create sin.  It is a product of man not chosing the intended use for something.

Omniscience:
The problem w/ trying to qualify this is that we experience time in a linear fashion w/ past-present-future.  To believe in God is to accept that He created everything, including time and is not bound to a linear model of it.  So, he actually does see it all at once and not as we do.  It is also impossible to understand the mind of God as we will never be able to grasp the vastness of it.  We try to determine things how we would understand it and therefore put Him in a box w/ the parameters that we can understand.  This is where we ere.  As for the chronology of God and Him changing His mind... Though the Word is inspired by God and it is His word, it is also bound to a language and a peopl;e who cannot completely fathom it.  So, where Genesis refered to God changing His mind w/ Moses, that is what Moses understood, whereas it could have been God using this as a teaching moment for Moses' benefit.

That's about the best I can do off the top of my head.


Prince, 
The main reason Christians...or Religious people (not mutually inclusive) become passionate (and wrongfully angry at times) is that it is an issue that they take passionately and because most Atheistic arguments tend to insult the intelligence of the believer and come across as an attempt to "outwit the mindless followers of a stupid crutch".  Anger is wrong, but there's nothing wrong w/ having a passion about something.  Especially this.  I have no porblem w/ differing opinions, so long as I'm allowed mine.


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## cornfed (Jan 14, 2003)

You'll also find that Intelligent design takes up a very significant faction of scientists these days and when you look at the stats of the probability that evolution successfully occurred and that the world was "created", you'd be rather suprised to see the difference.


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## ALBOB (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_  I have no porblem w/ differing opinions, so long as I'm allowed mine.



THAT'S what I've been trying to say.  

Oh crap, did I just agree with cornfed???


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## craig777 (Jan 14, 2003)

Well said cornfed 

I agree also


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## cornfed (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_
> It is because of Christianity that mass murders and tortures have taken place. For example the Salem Witch trials. It was based on the biblical script 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.' if it wasn't for that script thousands of people may not have been brutally tortured by 'god-loving christians' for days on end and then burnt at the stake.
> 
> Every war that occurs the two sides justify their actions because they are 'doing gods will.' So does christianity really prevent mass murder, or condone it?


The problem here is that "the church"/"Christians" and Christianity aren't mutually inclusive, either.  All that crap was done outside of the accordance of Scripture.  But you are right about 1 thing.  1 of the biggest turnoffs to Christianity is Christians at times and even more often those that claim to be so under the blanket of piety or religious fervor.  Judge a tree by it's fruit, not just it's nametag.

I'll admit that I'm not the best example either


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## cornfed (Jan 14, 2003)

Only 1 more problem... can I still milk the sweet 'lil 5yr-old thing or do y'all not believe it?  

Hey, I just kick back during recess and wax philosophically and theologically


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## ALBOB (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> Only 1 more problem... can I still milk the sweet 'lil 5yr-old thing or do y'all not believe it?



If you think we EVER believed it your entire philosophical waxings will be instantly discredited.


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## cornfed (Jan 14, 2003)

Dang


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## craig777 (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> If you think we EVER believed it your entire philosophical waxings will be instantly discredited.


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## Tboy (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I do not think of it that way. You see believeing in religeon as an insurance policy, you're covered just in case it's true.
> 
> I feel that if there is a god he gave me/us the intellect to be skeptical and utilize science, and science tells me/us that the majority of what the bible says is bunk.



Im not saying that I use it as a backup plan.  Im saying that if YOU do nothing else, use it as a backup plan.

I believe it the other way around.  If nothing happens,  What have I lost?


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## ALBOB (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_ What have I lost?



Two hours out of every Sunday morning of your life.  



OK, ok, bad joke.................sorry.


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## Tboy (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> Two hours out of every Sunday morning of your life.
> 
> 
> ...



Sunday morning and sunday night.   Still nothing lost.  A nice time with my family, sitting down, NOT working.


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## Tboy (Jan 14, 2003)

Oh yeah... When it does happen, what have I gained?  Think about it.


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## cornfed (Jan 14, 2003)

Calm down, bud.  We're all friends here


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## irontime (Jan 14, 2003)

That's true, nothing to get pissed about. I for one used to be a devout christian for years untill I did some more study into it. On that note Corndog it's time I adressed some of your points.


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## cornfed (Jan 14, 2003)

Your welcome to it, bud.


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## irontime (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> As for the creation of sin:
> God gave man free will, and therefore limitless options on what actions to take.  Man perverted or challenged "good" things created by God creating Rape from Sex, Hate from Love, Lust from attraction, Covetiousness from admiration, etc...   God did not create sin.  It is a product of man not chosing the intended use for something.


Interesting point, but he did create the first people's minds, therefore he put into their head the notion that they would rebel. Think about it, he made the term 'free will' and with that he programmed us to create sin. So basically he created two little puppets who acted all sweet and tender for a while and then he had the puppets do something wrong so that he could punish all humanity and enjoy the soap opera he created. I mean why would he even put the tree of good and evil in the garden if he didn't intend on having them eat from it?


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## cornfed (Jan 14, 2003)

It's a choice.  And (check your PMs), but a parent doesen't remove all obstacles from their child so that they are forced to obey.  A good parent let's the child choose at some point so that the child obeys out of love and trust as opposed to a dictatorial relationship.  But the child must still choose.  And w/ that I bid this subject adue and I'm gonna try to just moderate and not partake if possible.  


Note:  Keep it civil


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## cornfed (Jan 14, 2003)

Guess I fudged, huh bro.


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## ALBOB (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_  And w/ that I bid this subject adue and I'm gonna try to just moderate and not partake if possible.



BULLS**T!  Don't leave now, you've got some of the most intelligent insights into the subject so far.  Don't go off and leave us in the hands of..................IRONTIME.


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## irontime (Jan 14, 2003)

> but a parent doesen't remove all obstacles from their child so that they are forced to obey. A good parent let's the child choose at some point so that the child obeys out of love and trust as opposed to a dictatorial relationship. But the child must still choose. And w/ that I bid this subject adue and I'm gonna try to just moderate and not partake if possible.


True, but a parent does not create the mind and future of the child as god did for man. But I said my piece and I'll have to agree with you that this thread is going no where pretty fast. So I'll make my exit for now and hopefully we can all just agree to be decent people. I don't want to change anyone's views on their religion, just wanted people to understand my point of view, hopefully that was accomplished.


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## irontime (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> BULLS**T!  Don't leave now, you've got some of the most intelligent insights into the subject so far.  Don't go off and leave us in the hands of..................IRONTIME.


Scared to go unarmed in a battle of wits eh?


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## craig777 (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_
> Scared to go unarmed in a battle of wits eh?



Oh my word that is the funniest thing I have heard in a long long time. Thanks IT, I haven't laughed so hard in a long time.


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## irontime (Jan 14, 2003)

Glad to be of service


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## ALBOB (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_
> Glad to be of service



You dimwit, he's laughing AT you, not WITH you.


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## craig777 (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> You dimwit, he's laughing AT you, not WITH you.



Makes you wonder, doesn't it Albob


----------



## irontime (Jan 14, 2003)

Well at least someone's fuqing laughing. Thread was getting a little too uptight......but I guess that would kinda be my fault for starting it up again eh?


----------



## ALBOB (Jan 14, 2003)

I think I'm gonna have to go slap his mom.  I know no child of MINE could be that dumb.


----------



## irontime (Jan 14, 2003)

I was concieved during his pot smoking days


----------



## craig777 (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> I think I'm gonna have to go slap his mom.  I know no child of MINE could be that dumb.



You know what is scary, is when we are old and retired he will be running the country.  

and I agree someone needs to slap his momma.


----------



## irontime (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> You know what is scary, is when we are old and retired he will be running the country.


And I'm gonna tax you fuqers to death


----------



## ALBOB (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> You know what is scary, is when we are old and retired he will be running the country.



GAAAAAK  I hadn't thought of that.  Thank God (Or whatever diety you pray to.) that it'll be a country that's already fuqued up and nobody cares about anyway.


----------



## irontime (Jan 14, 2003)

Don't worry pops, I'll come visit ya


----------



## mesomorphin' (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_
> I was concieved during his pot smoking days



That may be what they TOLD you, but all signs point to something quite a bit more potent than that.


----------



## irontime (Jan 14, 2003)

Well he obviously has deformities, I mean look at him. He can't be all human


----------



## ALBOB (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_
> He can't be all human



True, I'm 50% Greek god.


----------



## irontime (Jan 14, 2003)

I suppose, they do have the 'fat greek god's' don't they?


----------



## ALBOB (Jan 14, 2003)

Calorious Maximus


----------



## irontime (Jan 14, 2003)

I was thinking more along the lines of 'Hairius Lardaz'


----------



## ALBOB (Jan 14, 2003)

You accusing me of having a hairy ass brings up some very interesting questions............all of which point directly at you being less than masculine.


----------



## irontime (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> all of which point directly at you being less than masculine.


True, any information of your hairy ass would make me less masculine and more traumatized as it would any of you......oh the horrors


----------



## Arnold (Jan 14, 2003)

I want to make one point I am not an athiest, I see them just as I see christians. 

I cannot prove there is no god, and you cannot prove there is.

therefore, I like to think of myself as agnostic.


----------



## ZECH (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I want to make one point I am not an athiest, I see them just as I see christians.
> 
> I cannot prove there is no god, and you cannot prove there is.
> ...


It's on our money!! Our country was founded on God!


----------



## Jodi (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> It's on our money!! Our country was founded on God!




  Lets not start that again!  LOL


----------



## Dero (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> Lets not start that again!  LOL


Too late!!!


----------



## Arnold (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> It's on our money!! Our country was founded on God!




oh, it must be true then.


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## ZECH (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> oh, it must be true then.


 That is how I see it!


----------



## ragingbull (Jan 14, 2003)

A couple of thoughts on the topic. (Which I can't believe is on the board!!)

1. God didn't create humans as "puppets", he created us as logical beings able to make choices. It would be Gods will that all go to heaven but, He will not make you choose to believe in him. We are different from other species because God made us responsible for all other species. He knew that their had to be one species to rule all others. That's what makes us different.

2. As for "pushy" christians. Honestly they make me sick. Some feel that as christians it's their responsiblity to convert people to christianity. Fact is, as a christian your responsibility is to live as God would, share what your faith mean TO YOU,  and let GOD do the work. Often times christians mess up everything by "judging" others.

3. We all believe in  a GOD. In some capacity we all believe in a God. The ultimate test is when you go through a horrible time, were do you ultimatly turn. Some turn to God, some turn to work, some turn to a spouse, some to to themselves for support. What ever gives you support and comfort is ultimatly your God. 

4. The question as to why Christians believe that their religion is the only religion that will get you to heaven. Because all other "Gods" are still in the grave. Why because they were man. Jesus was the only God that was raised from the tomb, which is substantiated by history. Christ was raised to show that he concored (sp) hell and satan. Those who believe in him will have eternal life. 

5. Using religion as a security blanket, "just in case". Make a choice but don't ride the fence on this one. God wants a relationship not a security blanket. I don't see it written anywhere that you go to heaven because you used religion as a security blanket. You either believe in it or you don't. 


Finally, these are just some facts on christianity. No one should be judged one way or another because it's a personal choice. 

What's cool about the whole thing is you can have a decent dialog about it and see different perspectives. I've learned alot.


Oh, one more thing, "If you would turn in your bibles....."
JUST KIDDING


----------



## Tboy (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> 5. Using religion as a security blanket, "just in case". Make a choice but don't ride the fence on this one. God wants a relationship not a security blanket. I don't see it written anywhere that you go to heaven because you used religion as a security blanket. You either believe in it or you don't.



I agree there.   The point I was trying to make to Prince was,  If you dont do it for any reason at all, do it just because there is a chance it could happen.   I'd rather have him with us accidently on purpose than not at all.  (boy is that as clear as mud?)



> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> Oh, one more thing, "If you would turn in your bibles....."
> JUST KIDDING




He He He...  I had to scroll down, I thought you were fixin to get on da soap box and give us one.


Prince and others....  There are a few things that we'll have to agree to disagree on.  I just like a good argument every now and then        Diversity:  It's what makes the world go round, right?


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## Dero (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> Diversity:  It's what makes the world go round, right?




YUP,you got that right!!!
 
And thank gawd...(no pun intended)
Imagine if we were all like you!!! 
OMG!!! Nooooooooooooo!!!
    


 all is good!!!


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## Arnold (Jan 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> Jesus was the only God that was raised from the tomb, which is substantiated by history. Christ was raised to show that he concored (sp) hell and satan. Those who believe in him will have eternal life.



sorry, but that is a crock.


"which is substantiated by history"? 

What does that really mean? Is history factual? Think deeply about that.


Here is the biggest problem with christians: the bible has great stories that are metaphorical, not to be taken literal. They all have great morals, but christains literalize everything in the bible, that's their mistake.


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## ragingbull (Jan 15, 2003)

Prince,

You say, "Here is the biggest problem with christians: the bible has great stories that are metaphorical, not to be taken literal. They all have great morals, but christains literalize everything in the bible, that's their mistake."

You say this as if you speak for everyone. Fact is you have done very little research of your own about the "stories" in the bible to prove fact or fiction. Let look at the great flood. There has been actual research done that proved that there was a great flood. Substatiated, documeted, fact.

If christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he created the universe....assuming this is true...then tell me why the same god that created the universe could not fulfill every story in the bible.

I'm not on my soap box, it just frustrates me when I see comments about any group  of people, religious or ethnic, that comes out of persoanl belief and not fact. For christians the bible is literal, if you want to prove the bible is anything than that, then prove it. Don't just insinuate that all christian are making a "mistake", by have the belief system that they do.


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## irontime (Jan 15, 2003)

Ah boy, here we go again 
Well raging bull I for one have done research, and if you have done some then some of the things that have taken place in Chrisitianity would make you sick. I have already mentioned some of the instances and do not feel the need to repeat them, but here's one that the ladies should like, it was written in Solomon I believe.

'And husbands, do not bully your wife if she does not listen, simply scold her as you would a child. If she still does not listen then take up the rod and beat her until she concedes, for it is better to beat the body then to surrender the soul.'

So how literally do you take the bible? Do you beat the shit out of your wife when you have an arguement?


----------



## irontime (Jan 15, 2003)

Not trying to flame you here, just making a point.


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_
> but here's one that the ladies should like, it was written in Solomon I believe.
> 
> 'And husbands, do not bully your wife if she does not listen, simply scold her as you would a child. If she still does not listen then take up the rod and beat her until she concedes, for it is better to beat the body then to surrender the soul.'
> ...



Really your research sucks which screwed up version of the bible did you find that in? and where?

This why their is so many religions. they twist the bible to fit their view. Beat their wife(or wifes) sleep with children etc. etc.

You want to know GOD read his book (The whole thing)

NASB 1 corinthians 15 ver 20-32

LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE

Read it for yourself

believe what you want  just don't miss quote the bible 
 

War has always been about religion and still is to this day


----------



## ALBOB (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tidalwaverus *_
> War has always been about religion and still is to this day



Thankfully we're starting to change that..............now it's about oil.


----------



## kuso (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> Thankfully we're starting to change that..............now it's about oil.



I really shouldn`t be,...but I`m ROTFLMAO


----------



## ZECH (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_
> Ah boy, here we go again
> Well raging bull I for one have done research, and if you have done some then some of the things that have taken place in Chrisitianity would make you sick. I have already mentioned some of the instances and do not feel the need to repeat them, but here's one that the ladies should like, it was written in Solomon I believe.
> 
> ...


IT, that was old testament...........we don't live under the law anymore more!


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## ZECH (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> Thankfully we're starting to change that..............now it's about oil.


And money!


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 15, 2003)

So which one is the Infidels this time?


----------



## craig777 (Jan 15, 2003)

Hey IT, although that sounds like a very good verse.  I searched and searched for it and I couldn't find anything even remotely like it. Could you find it for me, I want to use it.


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## ALBOB (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_I want to use it.



What's the closest hospital to your house, I want to know where to send your "Get Well" card.


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## craig777 (Jan 15, 2003)

Oh, and I disagree with war always being about religion. Do you have any idea how many wars have been fought over women   The trojan wars which lasted many many years were all over Helen. She must have been one heck of a good looking lady.


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## craig777 (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> What's the closest hospital to your house, I want to know where to send your "Get Well" card.



  You got that right


----------



## ragingbull (Jan 15, 2003)

IT, do a little more research into the word "Rod" that was used during that specific timeperiod and you will find that it is not a stick, bat, golf club, or any other device that you would literally beat the crap out of someone with. The word "Rod" is translated into taking control of a situation and using discipline, much like we do in BB and fitness. Discipline takes on many different forms in many homes. Ultimatly in every household there has to be one person who makes a final decision. In many homes the husband, with counsel of his wife or signifant other, will make the final decision. My point is that the word "Rod" doesn't mean stick, it mean discipline. 

Another scripture that uses "Rod" is "spare the Rod and lose the child". I think we've all heard this one. Again, this refers to the fact that you should never lack discipline with a child or they will go wild.  Again, I think we can all agree on this one. 

Many times, when translantions take place, say from Greek to King James to NIV, it' s difficult to find the exact word that the Original Greek had intended.

IT, you make good points and keep it up.


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## Arnold (Jan 15, 2003)

First of all the bible has been translated so many times and in those translations lost it's original meaning, that is fact!

Secondly, I do not have to prove that stories in a book are not true, prove that they are true, which you can't. Science disputes just about everything in the bible, it does not support it.

I am not intending to insult christians, but the majority of them (not all) believe that they and their religeon is righteous.

As far as what christians have done in the past? How about killing so called witches in Salem, read up on that and you will be sickened. Go type in "witch hunts" in google.com and start reading.

As far as research, I have taken upper division college classes in philosophy, sociology and religeon, so I do not speak out of ignorance here.

What are your credentials aside of going to church and reading the bible, which are biased. Do you have any "objective" education in religeon?


----------



## ragingbull (Jan 15, 2003)

Prince, 

I will agree with you on one point, when you say.

"I am not intending to insult christians, but the majority of them (not all) believe that they and their religeon is righteous"

This is one thing that makes me mad about christians. Just like anything in life, there are extremist. It seem that many of them overshadow those of us who are just trying to get by day to day and be a good friend to those who need one. 

Prince, I'm not trying to change your mind, just giving my side of the issue. I'm also not saying that you haven't done research. There are Theologians who study this stuff on a constant basis and still can't agree. Who's to say I'm right and your wrong. This is just a choice that I have logically made for myself and choose to believe in.  You've made a different choice than me, doesn't mean your good or bad, just that we made different choices.

One thing I know for sure we can agree to disagree.


PS. About the witch thing, remember, there are extremist in every circle of life. It only takes a few to make us all look bad.


----------



## mmafiter (Jan 15, 2003)

I'm glad to see everyone is remaining adult about ths discussion. It's refreshing! I think we should ALL remember that no one is going to convince someone to believe or not believe in God here. We are having a great debate, and it's eye opening and interesting nature shouldn't be lost to anger or insults.


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## Arnold (Jan 15, 2003)

it's also important to remember that *no one* knows if there is or is not a god, there are those that have faith, those that do not, and those like me that just sit in the middle.


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## mmafiter (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> Prince,
> 
> You say this as if you speak for everyone. Fact is you have done very little research of your own about the "stories" in the bible to prove fact or fiction. Let look at the great flood. There has been actual research done that proved that there was a great flood. Substatiated, documeted, fact.



I've seen documentaries on this subject and similar ones. And the conclusion was that there WAS a flood, not in worldwide proportions, but on a grand scale. 

So here's my question. Isn't it possible that the bible is a collection of stories/legends passed down from generation to generation? Let's look at the flood episode. The people in those times couldn't hop in a car a go a few hundred miles on a whim, so  when you have a flood that wipes out a small continent say, wouldn't that seem like the whole world to these people? 

And wouldn't those stories evolve and change over time, taking on epic scale? Much like the game where you say a sentence to one guy in a circle and by the time it gets back to you, you have no idea what the hell happened! Isn't the new testament a revision of the bible? How can the laws change?

It just seems that the bible is a collection of stories with grains of truth, and was meant to be used as a learning tool and moral compass.


----------



## ragingbull (Jan 15, 2003)

MMAFITER,

Bro, this is all your fault. You are soley responsible for this classic debate. I think it's pretty cool!!

To your point, I don't think any of us could deny what you have stated. There is a possibility that the flood was a great flood that covered alot of space and not global flooding.

But when you say, "It just seems that the bible is a collection of stories with grains of truth, and was meant to be used as a learning tool and moral compass." For me personally, the bible more than a moral compass, but, more of a way of life. I choose to wake up every day and believe that Christ died for my sin, I except that, and will have eternal life. 

To our point also, I do believe that if society would look at the bible as a moral compass, we would have much less problems with our society. I say this because, one of the main points in the New Testiment is "love your neighbor as your self." If we all looked at life through those glasses, I think we would all behave a little differently.


----------



## ragingbull (Jan 15, 2003)

Prince,

I feel that we all have faith in something. Some put it in themselves, friends, society, or God. I think it's human nature to have faith in something, otherwise what is the point of life. 

This is just my belief but, I feel that the reason we have suicide is because people choose to put their belief in something or someone and was let down.  They had emptiness in their life so they choose not to live.


----------



## ALBOB (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> one of the main points in the New Testiment is "love your neighbor as your self." If we all looked at life through those glasses, I think we would all behave a little differently.



What if you're a masochist?  

Hey, don't get mad at me, SOMEBODY has to play the village idiot. 
 

P.S.  In case you're wondering, I AM taking this discussion seriously but until I can resolve a couple of conflicts in my own mind I'm just gonna play the fool.


----------



## mmafiter (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> 
> Hey, don't get mad at me, SOMEBODY has to play the village idiot.



And you fit the bill quite nicely!


----------



## Arnold (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> To our point also, I do believe that if society would look at the bible as a moral compass, we would have much less problems with our society. I say this because, one of the main points in the New Testiment is "love your neighbor as your self." If we all looked at life through those glasses, I think we would all behave a little differently.



yeah, a great example are the catholic priests that are being busted for raping little boys, can we all say pedophile? 

no thanks, I will utilize my OWN moral compass.

as far as faith, yeah we all have faith in something, or maybe many things, but I was specifically talking about religeous faith.

I am done with this thread, it's fucking pissing me off, not because you don't agree with me, I couldn't care less, but because I can't debate with people that use circular arguments, it's futile.


no hard feelings though.


----------



## mmafiter (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> MMAFITER,
> 
> Bro, this is all your fault.
> ...


----------



## mmafiter (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> 
> I am done with this thread, it's fucking pissing me off, not because you don't agree with me, I couldn't care less, but because I can't debate with people that use circular arguments, it's futile.



Oh SURE!!! Bail out on me now!


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## Arnold (Jan 15, 2003)

well, I now have 13 posts in this thread!


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## ragingbull (Jan 15, 2003)

Look Prince you say something, I answer, then you hate me, then you don't, then you say something, I answer, then you hate me, then you don't, then you say something, I answer, then  you hate me, then you don't.

I don't understand why you  feel were going in circles here....


----------



## Arnold (Jan 15, 2003)

I do not hate you, I never said I hated or even disliked you or anyone else.

You must not understand what a circular argument is, that's why I asked you what your "formal education" was on this subject.

A circular argument is where you base your conclusion that something is true based on the very premise of the argument. 

Example: 

Jesus died for our sins 
It says so in the bible.
Therefore, Jesus died for our sins.

understand? it's also referred to as "begging the question".

..


----------



## craig777 (Jan 15, 2003)

I thought the same thing of IT's argument that it made no sense for God to give Adam and Eve the choice to sin or not to sin, knowing that they would sin all along. Since it made no sense it didn't happen, but nothing makes sense to IT so therefore nothing happens.  

Oh and I'm with Albob I am taking this seriously, but I don't think I will change anyones mind. 

Albob, let me help you with your conflicts, her (insert any female here) boobs, both of them, are off limits to you.


----------



## Arnold (Jan 15, 2003)

first of all, I have to say about the book of Genesis is there is absolutley nothing that could even lend a shred of truth that humans were created the way this story describes.

and secondly, there is a shit load of scientific evidence that evolution did happen!


 why am I still posting in this damn thread?


----------



## ALBOB (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> first of all, I have to say about the book of Genesis is there is absolutley nothing that could even lend a shred of truth that humans were created the way this story describes.
> 
> and secondly, there is a shit load of scientific evidence that evolution did happen!



I've never believed that the theory of evolution and creationism are mutually exclusive, I think that it is very reasonable to see how they could both be true.  Who has the authority to say that God didn't create man USING the tools of evolution and natural selection?  Here the question is treated with humor...but I think it's also very thought provoking...

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


   By Gene Weingarten
   Washington Post Staff Writer
   Saturday, August 14, 1999; Page C01

   Memo to: The members of the Kansas Board of Education From: God

   Re: Your decision to eliminate the teaching of evolution as science.

    Thank you for your support. Much obliged.

    Now, go forth and multiply. Beget many children. And yea, your
children shall beget children. And their children shall beget children, and their children's children after them. And in time the genes that have made you such  pinheads will be eliminated through natural selection. Because that is how it works.

    Listen, I love all my creatures equally, and gave each his own
special qualities to help him on Earth. The horse I gave great strength.

The antelope  I gave great grace and speed. The dung beetle I gave great

stupidity, so he  doesn't realize he is a dung beetle. Man I gave a
brain. Use it, okay?

    I admit I am not perfect. I've made errors. (Armpit hair--what was I thinking?) But do you Kansans seriously believe that I dropped half-a-billion-year-old trilobite skeletons all over my great green Earth by mistake? What, I had a few lying around some previous creation in the Andromeda galaxy,  and they fell through a hole in my pocket?

    You were supposed to find them. And once you found them, you were supposed  to draw the appropriate, intelligent conclusions. That's what I made you for.  To think.

    The folks who wrote the Bible were smart and good people. Mostly, they got  it right. But there were glitches. Imprecisions. For one thing, they said  that Adam and Eve begat Cain and Abel, and then Cain begat Enoch.How was that supposed to have happened?  They left out Tiffany entirely!

    Well, they also were a little off on certain elements of timing and sequence. So what?

 You guys were supposed to figure it all out for yourselves, anyway.  When you stumble over the truth, you are not supposed to pick yourself up, dust yourself off and proceed on as though nothing had happened. If you find a dinosaur's toe, you're not supposed to look for reasons to call it a croissant. You're not big, drooling idiots. For that, I made dogs.

   Why do you think there are no fossilized human toes dating from a hundred million years ago? Think about it.

 It's okay if you think. In fact, I prefer it. That's why I like Charlie
Darwin. He was always a thinker. Still is. He and I chat frequently.

    I know a lot of people figure that if man evolved from other
organisms, it means I don't exist. I have to admit this is a reasonable assumption and a valid line of thought. I am in favor of thought. I encourage you to pursue this concept with an open mind, and see where it leads you.

    That's all I have to say right now, except that I'm really cheesed off at laugh tracks on sitcoms, and the NRA, and people who make simple declarative sentences sound like questions?

  Oh, wait. There's one more thing.

 Did you read in the newspapers yesterday how scientists in Australia dug up some rocks and found fossilized remains of life dating back further than ever before? Primitive, multicelled animals on Earth nearly 3 billion years ago,  when the planet was nothing but roiling muck and ice and fire. And inside those cells was . . . DNA. Incredibly complex strands of chemicals, laced together in a scheme so sophisticated no one yet understands exactly how it works.

 I wonder who could have thought of something like that, way back then.

 Just something to gnaw on.


----------



## ragingbull (Jan 15, 2003)

Prince,

Evolution? Adaptation, yes, Evolution, no? If there were evolution we would see species that are evolving in fossil remain. There is no evidence in fossil remains that evolution happened. In fact there is support for Creation because in fossil remain, humans suddenly arrive. If evolution happened, show me a sea creature that grows legs and fur and become a land creature. Thats what you would have to prove to show evolution happened. Facts also show that caron dating is completely inaccurate, which could lend to the fact that the earth is not billions of years old. 

PS. The circular thing was a complete joke. I do understand your point.


----------



## Arnold (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> PS. The circular thing was a complete joke. I do understand your point.



it's no joke bro.

you do not understand it because you have never taken a class in Logic.   (that's not intended as an insult either)

maybe this will help >> http://gncurtis.home.texas.net/begquest.html


----------



## irontime (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tidalwaverus *_
> You want to know GOD read his book (The whole thing)


I have. And the fact that god puts his own creations through such shit sickens me. Nother example (can't remember which book exactly, but I remember arguing with a pastor about it) It was when Moses was leading the Jews out of Egypt and the Phaoro (sp?) kept changing his mind and calling his slaves back even after the plagues. This is what it said in the bible. 
"But god *MADE* the Phaoro's heart cold and he called for his guards to get his slaves back."
This instance happened several times after each plague where it said he MADE his heart cold. Hence god put his own people through the plagues just for kicks. The pastor told me I was taking the meaning too literally. Well what the hell good is it if you can't take it literally?


----------



## cornfed (Jan 15, 2003)

WOW     this has gone from serious to halfway-enjoyable and back again.


----------



## irontime (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> IT, that was old testament...........we don't live under the law anymore more!


But it states in John that all scripture was inspired by god and beneficial.  So how can you pick and choose which one's you want?


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## Arnold (Jan 15, 2003)

if you're are going to dispute evolution, then you really, really, really need to go back to science class, cause I do not have the time to teach it on this forum. 

Just a question *ragingbull*, do not take offense: 

what is your level of education? if you have a bachelor's degree (or higher), please tell me from what school and your major. (just curious)


----------



## cornfed (Jan 15, 2003)

ERRR.....    EEEE..... 


I'm stayin' out... I promised myself I would....   *thinks to my self* "there is no temptation except that which is common to man..."


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## cornfed (Jan 15, 2003)

On a side note...  Most of my looong undergrad career has been science, whether biology, endocrinology or genetics... unless you wanna include my nutrition stint   ... no wonder my ass is still here


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## mmafiter (Jan 15, 2003)

*peeks in, sits down and starts eating a Lunchables*


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## craig777 (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> On a side note...  Most of my looong undergrad career has been science, whether biology, endocrinology or genetics... unless you wanna include my nutrition stint   ... no wonder my ass is still here



I have heard of people that change majors numerous times because they are afraid to face the world outside of the University  


I wanna go back to school


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## irontime (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> IT, you make good points and keep it up.


Thanks RB, but this is going no where. I will just leave my concluding comments on this thread and leave it alone.

The problem I am having with this thread is that we are arguing with facts and history about what has happened with christianity  and the answers we are being responded with has to do with a different translation of the bible. What good is it if everytime something seems wrong with it somebody tries to translate it differently? I will not love something simply because a piece of paper has writing on it and tells me to, but I'll look into its past and see what has come of it, and personally I do not think it shows much promise at all. I'm not trying to change people's beliefs, but just want people to be a little more open on different views and able to justify their positions with something a little more than 'the bible says so.' on that note I'm outta here 
HOPEFULLY for the last time


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## cornfed (Jan 15, 2003)

Well, that's not the case.  I'm just interested in way too much.  I didn't include being a music major at another school or my time in general studies or the double major I'm currently in.


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## ragingbull (Jan 15, 2003)

Point taken. 

So your point of view would be to take individual actions or "stories" from the bible, validate them as true. If validated as true, then the bible could be assume true cover to cover, and one would suggest that a belief in God would not be unwise and possibly encouraged?

Seriously, because my belief is that the Bible can be valiated, especially the new testimate, which is what christians live under.


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## craig777 (Jan 15, 2003)

Hey IT, before you go tell me which verse says that I can beat my wife with the rod. It could come in handy. A wife needs a good beating every now and then. I am just kidding ladies, I promise. I would like to know though.


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## craig777 (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> Point taken.
> 
> So your point of view would be to take individual actions or "stories" from the bible, validate them as true. If validated as true, then the bible could be assume true cover to cover, and one would suggest that a belief in God would not be unwise and possibly encouraged?
> ...



I'm a Christian and I live under a roof. Aw c'mon laugh


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## cornfed (Jan 15, 2003)

I vote that we either end the debate, start making fun of a 3rd party (like Kuso), or pornalize the thread to keep things nice and happy.


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## Arnold (Jan 15, 2003)

one of the main things that opened my mind was when I took upper division sociology and religeon classes, in which I realized that there is SO MUCH more than what christianity offers.

I just wish that everyone had the opportunity to be exposed to some of the very liberal professors that I had, as well as the classes, they really help people to remove their blinders and open their minds.

In some of my classes students actually walked out in the middle of lectures because they were so pissed at what the professor what saying about religeon, it was great. At the same time it was very sad because part of being educated at a university is opening your mind to new ideas, which obviously these students just refused to do.


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## craig777 (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> I vote that we either end the debate, start making fun of a 3rd party (like Kuso), or pornalize the thread to keep things nice and happy.




PORNALIZE


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## cornfed (Jan 15, 2003)

I'm still taking those classes, but the problem w/ many students is that they're either so ass-backwards that they won't hear out the oposition or that they blindly accept anything that a "prof" says.  I've been there and I think it's mutually agreeable that one must decide for themselves.


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## cornfed (Jan 15, 2003)

Pornalization has the lead, folks


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## Arnold (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> Point taken.
> 
> So your point of view would be to take individual actions or "stories" from the bible, validate them as true. If validated as true, then the bible could be assume true cover to cover, and one would suggest that a belief in God would not be unwise and possibly encouraged?
> ...



You cannot validate any stoies in the bible!!! This is the biggest mistake of all, you want to *LITERALIZE* stories that are *metaphorical* in nature. You should read them and grasp the moral of the story, that's it, nothing more. 

You do know the meaning of _metaphorical_ right?


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## cornfed (Jan 15, 2003)

Ummm... did I mention that pornalize has the lead... any counter votes?


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## Arnold (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> I'm still taking those classes, but the problem w/ many students is that they're either so ass-backwards that they won't hear out the oposition or that they blindly accept anything that a "prof" says.  I've been there and I think it's mutually agreeable that one must decide for themselves.



then the professor sucks! 

a good professor is not there to change your opinion, of course you decide for yourself, but you have to be open minded enough and at least listen.


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## cornfed (Jan 15, 2003)

Well, it's the sam as most of the nutrition profs I've had.  The immediately insult the intelligence of anyone who does not take the food pyramid as "the gospel" (sorry for the inference, but it fit).

and that's the 1st analogy that comes to mind.  I have had Christian profs in philosophy, though.  And in my sciences for that matter...even non Christian ones that are pro-intelligent design.


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## cornfed (Jan 15, 2003)

Eh, I just say that debating this is a moot point.


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## mmafiter (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> You cannot validate any stoies in the bible!!! This is the biggest mistake of all, you want to *LITERALIZE* stories that are *metaphorical* in nature. You should read them and grasp the moral of the story, that's it, nothing more.
> 
> You do know the meaning of _metaphorical_ right?


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## cornfed (Jan 15, 2003)

LOL


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## Arnold (Jan 15, 2003)

Yes, it's futile...see my previous post about circular arguments because that is the only place that this debate will go (or not go) as long as we're debating it with christians. 

Why? Because their entire argument is just that, it always reverts back to "because the bible says so".

No offense intended, but it's true...we have seen it over and over in this thread, and I have had this debate numerous times with many other christians, including my own family.


btw, I now have the record of 22 posts in this damn thread.


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## ragingbull (Jan 15, 2003)

So much to reply to so little time. Holy Cow.

IT- Your referance to "But god MADE the Phaoro's heart cold and he called for his guards to get his slaves back." Starts in Exodus 7 and ends in Exodus 11. The Bible stated that pharaoh's heart was harden toward God not the other way around. It states this several time

IT- I don't pick and choose. The difference between Jewish religion and Christiananity is the fact that we believe, as the new testament states, when Christ rose, there was a new law born  to be followed. The old law, old testament, delt with sacrifices, the ark of the covenant, and ritual. The new law basically state that anyone of us can pray and have our prayers answered. I believe the entire bible but, live by the new law.

Prince- B.S. in Business Aministration from Southwest Baptist Univeristy. Born and raised in the church. But honestly education has little to do with understanding and believing the bible. That comes through careful study, which i'm assuming you've done.

Evolution-  Have to go...will get back with you later... dinner time.


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## cornfed (Jan 15, 2003)

I don't believe that I did that, though most of my comments were theological in their nature.  The funnything is that there is so much more to this debate and the scientific aspect of it, but I still vote that it is moot b/c for every piece of evidence in this matter there are arguments.  How bout we call it a day...week...year...


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## Arnold (Jan 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> Prince- B.S. in Business Aministration from Southwest Baptist Univeristy. Born and raised in the church. But honestly education has little to do with understanding and believing the bible. That comes through careful study, which i'm assuming you've done.
> 
> Evolution-  Have to go...will get back with you later... dinner time.



ahhh...well that explains it, a Baptist college. 

B.S. in Business Admin, huh? So, I assume that your exposure to philosophy, other religeons and sociology was pretty much non-existent or it was biased towards christianity since it was a christian school, right?

Education has everything to do with understanding the bible my friend. Everyone in my family is uneducated (no college graduates) and they cannot give any argument except "it's true cause the bible says so", which is quite frustrating.


well, gotta go home now, it's been fun chatting, no hard feelings.


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## cornfed (Jan 15, 2003)

Prince, did you get my PM?


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## cornfed (Jan 15, 2003)

W/ that said, I am gonna be the ahole to close this puppy up for the good of the masses...

May God have mercy on your souls      sorry, had to 

...can I give a benediction?  


seriously though.... to each their own.  Go out and figure it out. 
Have a nice day. 

Adios


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## cornfed (Jan 16, 2003)

Alright, by popular request...

Lets just keep it in good humor and friendly.  To help w/ this, I would suggest that views should be stated as "your views" and avoid the tendency to state things as a fact.  Whether that is your belief or not, logic dictates that this debate has no true conclusion, or resolution if you may, by point/counterpoint and therefore this is a matter of personal belief.  If you're adressing another member's viewpoint, please be respectful of their opinion regardless of your stance.  Thank you and have a nice day.  

I love stating the obvious and acting like I'm mature, but seriously.  I'm opening this back up but staying very watchful, as I'm sure the other mods are.

Peace


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## Arnold (Jan 16, 2003)

Great, please read my posts carefully before responding to me.


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## cornfed (Jan 16, 2003)

I'm just glad I'm stayin' outta this one, despite my argumentative nature


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## ALBOB (Jan 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Great, please read my posts carefully before responding to me.



I've read this post four times........CAREFULLY...........and still can't come up with a response.


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## ALBOB (Jan 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_I just wish that everyone had the opportunity to be exposed to some of the very liberal professors that I had, as well as the classes, they really help people to remove their blinders and open their minds.



I'm a bit confused by this one Prince.  Please don't take it that I've formed an opinion, one way or the other, because I just don't have all the facts and am hoping you can clear this up for me.  You say that your "very liberal professors" "removed your blinders", is that correct?  Are you sure they didn't actually taint your vision with their liberalism?  In essence, puting blinders on you?  I'm not a college professor but I have been in the teaching profession for over a decade and I know, regardless of intent, some personal views WILL creep into speech.  It's literally impossible to remove all emotion/personal beliefs from a lecture given by a human being.  And I don't use absolutes like "impossible" lightly.


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## craig777 (Jan 16, 2003)

I have read it over and over very carefully and my favorite still has to be the ass.


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## Arnold (Jan 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> I'm a bit confused by this one Prince.  Please don't take it that I've formed an opinion, one way or the other, because I just don't have all the facts and am hoping you can clear this up for me.  You say that your "very liberal professors" "removed your blinders", is that correct?  Are you sure they didn't actually taint your vision with their liberalism?  In essence, puting blinders on you?  I'm not a college professor but I have been in the teaching profession for over a decade and I know, regardless of intent, some personal views WILL creep into speech.  It's literally impossible to remove all emotion/personal beliefs from a lecture given by a human being.  And I don't use absolutes like "impossible" lightly.



no sir.

they enlightened me.


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## ALBOB (Jan 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> I have read it over and over very carefully and my favorite still has to be the ass.



I'm into boobs myself...............................What the hell are you talking about Craig???


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## craig777 (Jan 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> I'm into boobs myself...............................What the hell are you talking about Craig???



Well yesterday corndog asked what we should do with this thread and I suggested pornalizing it, and what better way to pornalize than to focus on a nice, fine, firm female ass. Of course boobs are also nice, but I prefer the ass.


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## ALBOB (Jan 16, 2003)

Oh, right.  Give me a break, I'm less than a decade younger than Dero and can barely remember what I had for breakfast.  You want me to remember a post from YESTERDAY???


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## craig777 (Jan 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> Oh, right.  Give me a break, I'm less than a decade younger than Dero and can barely remember what I had for breakfast.  You want me to remember a post from YESTERDAY???



That is why you are in the Military


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## ragingbull (Jan 16, 2003)

Prince,

You strike me as a person that would be open to learning new information. That said the book "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell, is a book I think you would find interesting. The author basically had many of the same opinions as you, went out with the intent of proving christianity a farce, and writes about his results. Truely his vision was blurred by his disbelief of christianity.  If you want, I will send you a copy because I want the know your opinion.

Anyone else want one for free, let me PM me and I'll mail you one. (Limit to the first 5, I'm not a rich man!!!)

Very good read.


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## ragingbull (Jan 16, 2003)

Pardon the typo  "let me PM me "????

Anyone else want one for free, let me PM me and I'll mail you one. (Limit to the first 5, I'm not a rich man!!!)


PM me for a copy.


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## coleman (Jan 16, 2003)

At this point I would like to refer to stephen hawking, some of you may have read his book, A Brief History of Time.

In it he explains his theory, based on some unproven assumptions, about why there is no need for a God. According to his theory, there was not necessarily a Big Bang and that the Universe may never have had a singularity. Therefore, there was never a need for a Creator to set in motion the creation of the universe, as it always existed. 

Following the publication of this theory, non-Christians argued this proved there was no God. Conversely, a few decades ago, when Hawking and a fellow scientist proved the mathematics behind blackholes, Christians argued this proved the need for a God to set in motion going from the orignal singularity to where we are today, an expanding universe. 

Hawking, understandably, was not impressed with people taking his theoritcal findings and using them in a religious debate.

However, I find it interesting how religious folk will use science to their advantage when it suits them but try to refute it when it doesn't suit them. This is not the ideal of science, in science everything must be objective. If you have a hypothesis and your stuides prove you wrong, you don't run and hide from it and stick to your origninal idea. You admit you are wrong and move on. Afterall, what you may have found will be of use anyway.

That is why I believe in science and not God. Science has already debunked enitre sections of the Bible, Genisis being the most obvious. How long before the enitre Bible is debunked?


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## Arnold (Jan 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by coleman *_
> However, I find it interesting how religious folk will use science to their advantage when it suits them but try to refute it when it doesn't suit them. This is not the ideal of science, in science everything must be objective. If you have a hypothesis and your stuides prove you wrong, you don't run and hide from it and stick to your origninal idea. You admit you are wrong and move on. Afterall, what you may have found will be of use anyway.
> 
> That is why I believe in science and not God. Science has already debunked enitre sections of the Bible, Genisis being the most obvious. How long before the enitre Bible is debunked?


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## Dero (Jan 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> Oh, right.  Give me a break, I'm less than a decade younger than Dero and can barely remember what I had for breakfast.  You want me to remember a post from YESTERDAY???


Eh,eh,eh!!!Don't you use my name in vain!!!
I will have no part in this round table discussion...
Round,round it goes and NOBODY KNOWS!!!


PORNALISATION FOR DA NATION!!!
 


That's three AYYYYYYS there Corny!!!


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## irontime (Jan 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> IT- Your referance to "But god MADE the Phaoro's heart cold and he called for his guards to get his slaves back." Starts in Exodus 7 and ends in Exodus 11. The Bible stated that pharaoh's heart was harden toward God not the other way around. It states this several time


Arrggghhh  back again 
Then this just goes towards my theory that when a point is made in the bible that people do not, like they change the view of it to suit their needs or to euphanise it. When I had this discussion it specifically said 'god made his heart cold' obviously it has been altered to make it more desriable to the reader. Alright I'm trying to leave this alone again.


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 17, 2003)

I???m very knowledgeable when it come to this subject I???m not trying to convert anyone here. This seems to be an adult debate.

First, the answer is NASB Genesis 7 verse 2 ??? you shall take with you of every clean animal by SEVEN, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean TWO, A MALE AND HIS FEMALE.

How can you quote what you don???t know? People do it all the time the bible says this and that, ya right ,are you sure. Have you read it your self?


Did any of you read why you should ???eat and drink for tomorrow you die???
Anyone know the answer? then I could tell it says anything you wouldn't know differance.  

P.S. IT
 GOD hardened his heart the hebrew word is chazaq
look it up for yourself don't take my word for it


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## ZECH (Jan 18, 2003)

Prince refered to the interpertation of the bible in one of his posts.........You have to have the original greek and hebrew version. All this new crap is usless.


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 19, 2003)

My point is interpertion .........that's in last 100 years we went from 20 to over a 100+ religions all disagree on one thing the bible.

My second point most people quote what someone else has told them and never read it to be sure that's what is says. Because most of the time they get it wrong.

My third point is unless you read it for your self how are you going to know what the truth is ?

but nobody knows because nobody read it ?

Prince you read it and I will something about science and the bible for ya. All but 30 seconds to read it, maybe longer to find it 

But then you would know why you should "eat and drink for tomorrow you die"

P.S. I do have org. greek and hebew because alot of people do that too. It's says this and that. Nice to know the truth. 

If this gets personal I don't want any part of! DEBATE ONLY


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## Arnold (Jan 19, 2003)

It does not matter if you read it now, my point was it has been translated so many times that it has lost it's original meaning.


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 19, 2003)

But that's true and not true. 

example: hard to read  but the org. King James is the most arcurate translation From greek and hebrew it matches the dead sea scrolls.

Example: the worse being the J W's holy scriptures which is not called a bible anymore becaused they got into a law suit over it and LOST! no offence 

Depends on how well read you are.


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## Arnold (Jan 19, 2003)

okay, then tell me the *original* meaning of hell.

just a hint, it has nothing to do with the devil or a hot, burning underground world where sinners go.


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 19, 2003)

Got to go to work now I'll do it when I get home.


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## mmafiter (Jan 19, 2003)




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## mmafiter (Jan 19, 2003)

Just kidding guys!


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 20, 2003)

Our present meaning of "hell" then applies to gehenna, but not to the other word hades or sheol. "hell" fromerly did apply when the A.V. of the bible was writen:it then meant "hole," "hollow,"or unseen place. Shoel comes from a "root to make hollow,"the common receptacle of the dead below(Num.16.30,Deut.32.22)
that's a short answer.

now will you answer mine ?


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## Arnold (Jan 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tidalwaverus *_
> Our present meaning of "hell" then applies to gehenna, but not to the other word hades or sheol. "hell" fromerly did apply when the A.V. of the bible was writen:it then meant "hole," "hollow,"or unseen place. Shoel comes from a "root to make hollow,"the common receptacle of the dead below(Num.16.30,Deut.32.22)
> that's a short answer.
> 
> now will you answer mine ?



not sure where you dug that up from, maybe an internet search? 

but that is not the original meaning, or story of hell, the reason you cannot do the research to find it, or at least not easily, is because there is no original meaning of "hell", that is a mis-translation of the original story. 

you would have to go to the original transcripts, and be capable of translating them to get the real story. I could give you the basic story, but not all of the exact details because it was something that I studied around 10 years ago in college. 

I am reluctant to tell the story because I am not capable of giving full detail...let me see if I can find some documentation from school on it.


What question did you ask me that I did not answer?


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## Freeman (Jan 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tidalwaverus *_
> But that's true and not true.
> 
> example: hard to read  but the org. King James is the most arcurate translation From greek and hebrew it matches the dead sea scrolls.
> ...



Religions suing religions...am I the only one finding this absolutely hilarious?? 

Think god would be happy?


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## craig777 (Jan 20, 2003)

This is kind of funny. The word hell does not appear in the Bible so this argument is total irrelevant to anything. It is arguing apples and oranges. The two words that appear in the Bible are sheol and gehenna. They are very poorly translated to be the english word hell. They are not equivalent  It is the meaning of those two words, sheol and gehenna, that is important when doing a Bible study. Look them up in your Hebrew and Greek concordance. The original meaning of the word hell is totally irrelevant to the Bible. I could say that seeing Albob naked would be hell. It doesn't matter at all what we think hell is, and there isn't a guy there with a three pronged pitch fork all dressed in red either.


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## Arnold (Jan 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> This is kind of funny. The word hell does not appear in the Bible so this argument is total irrelevant to anything. It is arguing apples and oranges. The two words that appear in the Bible are sheol and gehenna.



that is because the bible is constantly being "revised". I guess god continues to speak to select individuals and tells them how to rewrite it.


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## Freeman (Jan 20, 2003)




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## craig777 (Jan 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> that is because the bible is constantly being "revised". I guess god continues to speak to select individuals and tells them how to rewrite it.



Now you are getting it Prince. When you study the Bible the first thing you do is go and find the exact words that were used, then you go and find out what the writer was truly trying to say. You can basically throw out the English word or words that were used in translation. When I study the Bible I don't even care what English words are used. I never ever even use an English Dictionary. There are really no good translations that is why you have to go back to the Hebrew and Greek and study that. 

The English language is really not a very good one.


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## craig777 (Jan 20, 2003)

And the reason there are so many translations of the Bible is because of just what we are doing here, we don't like what one translater used for a certain Greek or Hebrew word so off goes someone else to do another translation. 

Good grief


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## Arnold (Jan 20, 2003)

no matter what version or translation you use, I still firmly believe that the bible should be used metaphorically, do not try to literalize the stories.

are you familiar with the story of the boy who cried wolf? I am sure you are, most people read it in elementary school. It is a great little story with a good moral, but do you really think it was true? anyone with intelligence knows that the story is a metaphor, and has a underlying moral about lying.


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## Freeman (Jan 20, 2003)

Hell, you dont' even need to be THAT intelligent to know that the boy/wolf story is a metaphor...a STORY!


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## Arnold (Jan 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by freeman1504 *_
> Hell, you dont' even need to be THAT intelligent to know that the boy/wolf story is a metaphor...a STORY!



exactly, so why is it so difficult for people to understand that the bible is metaphorical?


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## Jodi (Jan 20, 2003)

I don't like to get involved in these conversations because I have no facts to back up my beliefs.  

What I came in here to say is that saying the Bible and its stories are metaphorical is probably the best explanation I have ever heard.

Who is to say that the book was not written as stories and should be used as words of wisdom or words to live by or morals for that matter.  I really liked that explanation.


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## ragingbull (Jan 20, 2003)

When you say that the bible IS based off "Medaphores". What factual evidence to you have to backup that claim.

Just because you don't believe that a particular "story" could happen doesn't mean it didn't. Remember, in the old testiment, God had not yet sent his son. So, one of the ways that God could demonstrate his power to the people was through miracles.

Put yourself in their shoes, would you ever believe in God if he never domonstrated his power to you and do it in a significant way. Probable not.


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## Arnold (Jan 20, 2003)

You're confusing my opinions here, I never said that I don't believe in god, I said that I cannot prove god does not exist, and no one can prove that god does exist.

My problem lies within christianity and it's beliefs.

Why would I or anyone else have to disprove the stories in the bible? You're saying that they should be regarded as truth because......why?


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## Arnold (Jan 20, 2003)

basically what I meant was I do not think that the onus is on my shoulders to disprove the bible, I see it the exact opposite.


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## Freeman (Jan 20, 2003)

I'm with Prince on this one.  

If I say, "well, you can't prove it either way...for or against" then the response I've often gotten by christians has been "but that's the way it is" or "because the bible says so" or "because I believe it to be that way"...well, that may be well and good, but just because you believe something, doesn't mean it's true...by the same token, it doesn't mean it's not true (ok ok I know, double negatives..fuck off!) 

anyways, I believe that I have a small wanker....now, whether tha'ts true or not is up to all the ladies


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## Jodi (Jan 20, 2003)

Freeman I can't say that would have been my choice of analogies!


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## coleman (Jan 20, 2003)

i believe religion formed out of lack of understanding. i can't remember the movie exactly but in the opening scene, a coke bottle dropeed from out of an aeroplane landed amongst a group of African tribesmen. they can't explain the coke bottle, so assume it has something to do with a God.

We, with more understanding, know exactly what happened and know it has nothing to do with God.

I believe it's the same with the beginning of Christianity. 

Person A: How did that ball of light form?
Person B: I don't know, maybe God put it there.
A: Whose God?
B: This all powerful being that created everything.
A: Oh okay then  

Nowadays, we all know the real explaination for how the Sun came to be (gravity, gases, fusion), but still some claim it to be God simply because of the tradition created by some guy a few thousand years ago who used some non-visible being to explain away everything he didn't understand.


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## ragingbull (Jan 20, 2003)

If you are saying that religion formed out of a lack understanding than you are saying that science is understanding. That being the case explain the second law of thermodynamics (everything in existance goes from a more complex form to a lesser complex form) ie. everything degrades. So how is it that evolution can occur. Fact is it can't, according to science.

The Sun came from (Fusion, Gas, Gravity). Take it back a step further. Where did fusion, gas and gravity come from. Had to come from somewhere. "Big Band" where everything in the universe came from somthing smaller than an atom? Come on. It takes more faith to believe that everything universal came from nothing than to believe it was created.


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## Freeman (Jan 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by coleman *_
> i believe religion formed out of lack of understanding. i can't remember the movie exactly but in the opening scene, a coke bottle dropeed from out of an aeroplane landed amongst a group of African tribesmen. they can't explain the coke bottle, so assume it has something to do with a God.
> 
> We, with more understanding, know exactly what happened and know it has nothing to do with God.
> ...



The movie was "The Gods Must Be Crazy" and it was Fucking Awesome!  It was more of a critique on globalization more than religion however.


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## Freeman (Jan 20, 2003)

Science is meant to gain knowledge.  To rationally explain things.  That is how we evolve.  Not in speculation..not in supersition or "hope" and "faith"...you can prove a law..you can't prove a theory, because when you do, it becomes a law....you can't prove "hope" or "faith"...and we only have "theories" as to how the sun was created...we cannot "prove" without a shadow of a doubt how it was created....so, your argument in that respect is flawed IMO..that's my theory anyways


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## ZECH (Jan 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> 
> 
> Freeman I can't say that would have been my choice of analogies!


Yep, badd choice


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## Freeman (Jan 20, 2003)

eh, well, it was right here in front of me, and I couldn't think of anything better


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## ragingbull (Jan 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by freeman1504 *_
> Science is meant to gain knowledge.  To rationally explain things.  That is how we evolve.  Not in speculation..not in supersition or "hope" and "faith"...you can prove a law..you can't prove a theory, because when you do, it becomes a law....you can't prove "hope" or "faith"...and we only have "theories" as to how the sun was created...we cannot "prove" without a shadow of a doubt how it was created....so, your argument in that respect is flawed IMO..that's my theory anyways




In the words of the great Mr. T.---"That's a bunch of Jibber Jabber."

Just kidding.  

You are right when you say that a theory, once proven correct, is a law. Likewise you then you would have to agree that once something is proven false, then it's no longer a theory or law. If you are seeking the truth in science and look at the information objectively. Show me any information, without flaws, that proves that the universe evolved and was not created. 

Finally to Princes point.

Christians can not prove that there IS a God. The only thing that can be proven is the authenticity of the Bible, for which there is a mountain. My point is, if we can prove that the bible is correct and authentic. The bible has never lost any doctrinal value as it has been translateed. The  bible never contradicted it's self. Then I would have to take the next logical step and assume it was inspired by God, and thus believe that there is a God. 

In a later post, I will give a few nuggets that proves my point in respect to the bible. Just interesting facts.


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## Dero (Jan 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by freeman1504 *_
> eh, well, it was right here in front of me, and I couldn't think of anything better


I think you should not had brought that up...


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## Freeman (Jan 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> In the words of the great Mr. T.---"That's a bunch of Jibber Jabber."
> 
> Just kidding.
> ...



Point is....evolution is a THEORY.  the creation, formation, etc. of the universe are ALL THEORIES.  so, I cannot prove nor disprove any of them...


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## Freeman (Jan 20, 2003)

but...to say, "well, I have my religious faith, therefore these things ARE false, incorrect..." is a fallacy...scientists don't necessarily say that the alternative could not be true..but I find it more often than not that die hard christians do


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## ragingbull (Jan 20, 2003)

Freeman,

I agree to a point to what you say. There are so many christian today that have no idea as to why they believe in Christianity. They've been brought up in a church, thought in a church but, have no understanding as to why, factually, they believe. The goal for myself is to know why I believe in christ. I understand that not all people believe in the bible so for me to point to the bible as my only source is inadequate. I feel we all need to have conviction as to our beliefs and point to facts that we can all agree on.


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## Arnold (Jan 20, 2003)

science only has theories as to how the Universe was created, there is nothing that can be proven.

you say the bible does not contradict itself? you're serious about that?
you do not think that the bible has lost meaning thru translations?


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## ragingbull (Jan 20, 2003)

Prince,

Actually, No. I heard it mentioned earlier that someone felt the bible lost it's intended mean because they compared it to circle of people; one person whispering a secret to the next and so on. When the last person says the what the secret is, often times, it's competely wrong.

The bible on the other hand is very accurate. For instance, there are over 25,000 manuscripts of the bible in existance. What this means is that we can look at original manuscripts from around 300 A.D. and compare them to our modern bible. When you compare those manuscripts, there is no doctrinal differences between them, even when we look at different translations. The only differences come in the form of words. For instance, the Greek have three words for Love, the english translation only says "Love". There is nothing that changes doctrinally but, due to english vocabulary, we have only love.


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## Freeman (Jan 20, 2003)

See, another problem I have here is this...you say "original manuscripts" from 300 AD...but, when did the stories that all of these manuscripts take place?  hundreds and thousands of years earlier, supposedly..if those are the earliest recordings of these stories, then, you don't htink there could be some sort of error with them?  I find it hard to believe that adam and eve's existence has been declared to be true because some guy wrote it somewhere, MANY MANY years later.

...so, if I write "and then there was Orthus, the god of Stinky Underwear...and he ate banana and mayo sandwiches and said you are in sin if you do not eat banana and mayo sandwiches!!  Then he struck down upon thee with rotten eggs!" and so on...and in 2,000 years, someone finds this and reads it, and adds onto it, then it must be true?

I'm not trying to be an asshole, I just like humor


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## ragingbull (Jan 20, 2003)

Freeman,

I was referring to the New Testiment. The New Testament is a series of letters that were entact somewhere around 300 AD. all of the New testament manuscripts were  completed around 40-50 AD with the originals being completed as the author lived and experienced Christ and gave their first hand account. (manuscript meaning a copy of the original) So it wasn't 2000 years but, more like 20-30 years after the death of Christ that the manuscrips were published. Each one of the New Testiment letters was written by someone with first hand knowedge of Christ. 

FYI.

Most of the ancient writing that have manuscripts were over 1000 years old before manuscripts became available. This is to point out that there was very little room for misinterepretation of the New Testiment and what it meant. 

FYI II.

The bible has less than 6 disputable differences between manuscripts.
Shakespear has over 100 disputable facts.


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## ZECH (Jan 20, 2003)

For those that like to read:
"Complete and unabridged Matthew Henry's Commentary on the whole Bible",each chapter is summed up in it's content and
"The KIng James Only Controversy" by James R. White.
Both these books are worth the time to read!!!


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## Freeman (Jan 20, 2003)

Ok, but what about the older stories?  the ones of the parting of the red sea?  adam and even?  etc etc.???


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## Dero (Jan 20, 2003)

Let me ask a few questions here...
-How many times has the bible been rewritten,meaning how many person have had THEIR own way of saying the same thing AND can that SAME THING aquiere a new definition each time.
Example,was it really a bush that was burning in front of Moise or was it a camp fire?Ok the example could be a tad off,but I'm sure you can understand what I'm getting at.

So,with this in mind could other stories have changed in the translations?


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## ragingbull (Jan 20, 2003)

Dero,

The Bible has never been rewritten just recopied. Meaning what ever "bush" means in Greek, we have the exact same or similar in english. Noone has taken latitude with the bible. The is proven through the 25,000 manuscripts of the NT. No noticable differences.

The problem comes from other religions. Some take passages from the bible and add their own which can cause some confusion.


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## Arnold (Jan 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> Dero,
> 
> The Bible has never been rewritten just recopied. Meaning what ever "bush" means in Greek, we have the exact same or similar in english. Noone has taken latitude with the bible. The is proven through the 25,000 manuscripts of the NT. No noticable differences.
> ...



you honestly think that we can translate every word from every other language and have an exact translation? 

that is a very ignorant statement, no offense.


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## ragingbull (Jan 20, 2003)

Now Prince, your mixing words. I never said "exact" but as I stated earlier, there has been nothing that changed doctrine. Now, if someone stated a "Blue" sky but the original said "Bluegreen". So be it. So what, the sky was "Bluegreen". Those sorts of things can happen when we don't have a word in the english vocabulary compared to the Greek.

Don't take my word, do the research yourself. It shows that when we look at all the thousands of manuscrips there is no major difference. Why? because we always have a comparative, the early manuscripts. They are the basis for all others.


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## Dero (Jan 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> Now Prince, your mixing words. I never said "exact" but as I stated earlier, there has been nothing that changed doctrine. Now, if someone stated a "Blue" sky but the original said "Bluegreen". So be it. So what, the sky was "Bluegreen". Those sorts of things can happen when we don't have a word in the english vocabulary compared to the Greek.
> 
> Don't take my word, do the research yourself. It shows that when we look at all the thousands of manuscrips there is no major difference. Why? because we always have a comparative, the early manuscripts. They are the basis for all others.



See to some people,saying that the sky was "bluegreen" could be misinterpreted as a miracle,you yourself just said"SO WHAT THE SKY WAS BLUEGREEN" To you it does not sound like a major  flaw but to others it could be a revelation!!!


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## ragingbull (Jan 20, 2003)

The question then  is would a "bluegree" sky instead of a "blue" sky be enough to trash christianity altogether. No. The jest of any miracle stated in the bible would be described as best possible with our venacular. Lets take your example of the burning bush. If Moses described the fire color as Red/Orange and our translation states it as Red. The miracle of the burning bush is still evident just the descriptive wording of the fire is different. Nothing to take way from the miracle itself.


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 20, 2003)

This is going nowhere, and nobodys know the answer.
I gave you the greek and hebrew meaning I ref/ where It came from not some search and you still can't read 8 verses to figure out why you should eat and drink for tomorrow you die. I guess  you just want to arugue and then change the channel? party on

A debate with you , would be like a debate over the end of a book you never finished. I could tell you the answer but that's to easy, you'll have to find it yourself.  PEACE I"M DONE


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## cornfed (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tidalwaverus *_
> But that's true and not true.
> 
> example: hard to read  but the org. King James is the most arcurate translation From greek and hebrew it matches the dead sea scrolls.
> ...


Not true at all.  The KJV  is one of the most inaccurate versions.  Try the NASV, it is a direct interperetation (in context) of the greek & hebrew.


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## Freeman (Jan 21, 2003)

I'm supposed to believe a storery "re-written" by Englishmen hundreds upon hundreds of years after it was re-written by someone else and before that was mere oral history?  This would seem to mean that if someone took note and recorded all of the stories about robin hood, that were initially musings and oral tales..that Robin Hood could just as easily be a religious figure....


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## cornfed (Jan 21, 2003)

actually, the greek was recorded w/in 20-70yrs of the actual happenings...


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## cornfed (Jan 21, 2003)

oral history would therefore be an inaccurate description


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## Tboy (Jan 21, 2003)

You guys seem to be forgetting all the prophicies (or predictions) that have been fullfilled.  Evidence of the "flood".    

Why try to dispute all these things.  Simply find out for yourselves.  When you get a free moment, find a quite place and ask God to help you understand, AKA prayer.   pray and see for yourselves.  Give it a try.  You probably won't get a voice from heaven saying "yes I am God"  but you may get an answer in other ways...


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## cornfed (Jan 21, 2003)

I dunno... I think I'm gonna reevaluate my views on Robin Hood


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## Arnold (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> You guys seem to be forgetting all the prophicies (or predictions) that have been fullfilled.  Evidence of the "flood".
> 
> Why try to dispute all these things.  Simply find out for yourselves.  When you get a free moment, find a quite place and ask God to help you understand, AKA prayer.   pray and see for yourselves.  Give it a try.  You probably won't get a voice from heaven saying "yes I am God"  but you may get an answer in other ways...



yeah, and you can get advice from a "psychic reader" and it will all be true as well as long as you believe it to be.

ever heard of _self fullfilling prophecy_?


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## Tboy (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> yeah, and you can get advice from a "pychic reader" and it will all be true as well as long as you believe it to be.



The same could be said about these professors you've been listening to.  What do they have to back it up?  Theories?


As far as "self fulfilling prophecy" goes I have yet to make my self a millionaire. 

What's a py-chic?


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## Arnold (Jan 21, 2003)

nothing, just PhD's, and years of studying, research, teaching, etc.


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## craig777 (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> nothing, just PhD's, and years of studying, research, teaching, etc.



Hey Prince using the education level of your professors to prove your point won't work because there are just as many scientists, PhD's, etc that believe the Bible to be true. It is just what you want to believe, and that is ok to believe what you want to believe.

The bottom line is we all have to believe in what we believe in, and some of us believe the Bible is true and some of us don't.


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## Arnold (Jan 21, 2003)

Scientists and PhD's in what field though?


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## craig777 (Jan 21, 2003)

There are thousands of Scientists and PhDs in all fields that believe the Bible to be true.

We had a Scientist come to our church, well actually he has been there a number of times, that spent his entire life researching to prove the Bible to be false and just a pack of stories that had no basis in fact. He spent over 40 years doing this, and what he found out in over 40 years of research and study is that the Bible has not been proven incorrect in anything. He is now a Christian, and goes around from church to church sharing his life studies. He is on TV if you want to watch him, his name is Dr. Baugh.


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## Tboy (Jan 21, 2003)

Based on what?  Theories.

I know some people with phd's.  Some of them have lots of smarts and some are just plain idiots with lots of credentials.    PHD's in most cases only mean that you'll get hired faster than most.


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## Arnold (Jan 21, 2003)

Science can prove many, many things in the bible untrue.

where do you get this information?

btw, I would be leary of *any* religous speaker on TV.


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## Arnold (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> Based on what?  Theories.
> 
> I know some people with phd's.  Some of them have lots of smarts and some are just plain idiots with lots of credentials.    PHD's in most cases only mean that you'll get hired faster than most.



depends where they got their PhD from, if it's from a reputable school then it's almost impossible that they're idiots.

just an example, to get into a top 100 school's doctrate program you typically need a 3.75 GPA in your master's degree, and you have to score high on the entrance exam.

you don't just say "hey I want a PhD" and go get it, unless you're getting it from some bogus online school.

a PhD means a hell of lot more than a credential on your resume, you obviously do not have much respect for higher education.


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## Tboy (Jan 21, 2003)

Not trying to discredit the time, effort, money that is involved in getting a phd, just saying people with phd's are still people.  And like people, we are only as smart as our last teacher.  Except for a few of us self thinkers..


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## craig777 (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Science can prove many, many things in the bible untrue.
> 
> where do you get this information?
> ...



That is hilarious, where did I get this information. Prince, he came to my church a number of times to speak.  

Prince, no one will ever change your mind because you want to believe what you want to believe. You just have to come up with solid justifications in your own mind to substantiate why you believe it. If you feel that your reasons are solid and prove your point in your own mind that is great. I don't agree with them, and never will. 

Oh, can you tell me one of those things that has been proven untrue, and it isn't creation, and it isn't the flood either.


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## Arnold (Jan 21, 2003)

actually, there is very little "teaching" involved with a PhD, it's more like "guidance".  

Getting a PhD is primarily reading, research and writing papers. 

Many Master's degrees are the same way, the one I am working on is.

And to be a full-time professor with tenure at a reputable university requires a master's and PhD from reputable schools.


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## Tboy (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> you obviously do not have much respect for higher education.



Don't try to construe something I said into something you wanted me to say.  I hate when people do that.  

Read my last post.  

I had a cousin that had a phd.  He was deffinately book smart but had no common sense at all.  He also killed himself...  How smart was that?


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## Tboy (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> btw, I would be leary of *any* religous speaker on TV.



I agree.  Never send them your money.  Or make the mistake of believing that all Christians are like them.


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## Arnold (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by craig777 *_
> Oh, can you tell me one of those things that has been proven untrue, and it isn't creation, and it isn't the flood either.



how about I reverse this and ask you what has been proven true?

as I said in a previous post, I do not think that the onus is on my shoulders (the non-believer) to prove the bible untrue. 

The onus lies on the believer's shoulders to prove that it is.


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## Arnold (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> I had a cousin that had a phd.  He was deffinately book smart but had no common sense at all.  He also killed himself...  How smart was that?



killing yourself has nothing to do with intelligence.

did you know that medical doctors, who have 8+ years of higher education have one of the highest suicide rates of all professions?


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## Tboy (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Science can prove many, many things in the bible untrue.



One of the major problems I have with them trying to prove/disprove anything that involves carbon dating.  How can a process be a million or 2 yrs off?

In favor of scientists:  they have said that there was some sort of flood that caused the continental drift.


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## Tboy (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> did you know that medical doctors, who have 8+ years of higher education have one of the highest suicide rates of all professions?



Yeah, I know.  Crazy isnt it?

About a year ago my doc put his leg in a 5 gal bucket and slit his ankle and allowed himself to bleed to death.


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## cornfed (Jan 21, 2003)

PHD's and MD's are thoroughly overrated titles.  Any asshole w/ a decent IQ _or_ persistence could get one IMO.  I said asshole b/c knowledge or percieveed knowledge does not directly correlate to wisdom or truth.  You could study alchemy for decades and still be unable to produce gold from iron...  or 8yrs of college and 3 degrees and still be wrong.  JMHO and observation


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## craig777 (Jan 21, 2003)

No, herein lies the problem.

Non-believers want to discredit the Bible and prove it to be untrue to feel better about their beliefs. "I don't believe in the Bible because of this and that." They will even believe lies about the Bible because they want more than anything to believe the Bible is untrue.

Believers have faith that it is true, and that is what y'all don't want to hear is that you have to have faith.

The world has become a very scientific place, where everyone wants to see proof before they will believe.

I think that I have said my bit, and I think I will go the way of the corndog and bow out now. 

Oh, and I respect everyone of you for being able to have your own beliefs. God Bless the USA, where is that darn flag.


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## cornfed (Jan 21, 2003)

A good ste of examples on this are my numerous run-ins w/ endocrinologists, physiologists, assorted grad-students and professors who didn't know their ass from a crater on Mars and of course there are exceptions...  but I also know for a fact that a good % of profs are profs b/c there was no other job that they could get. LOL


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## cornfed (Jan 21, 2003)

I didn't bow out, I'm just staying on fringe issues to satiate my desire to dive in head 1st


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## craig777 (Jan 21, 2003)

Where I work we have hundreds of PhDs in all fields, they can't make up their minds on anything. You ask them to actually make a decision and they can't do it to save their life.


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## Arnold (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> PHD's and MD's are thoroughly overrated titles.  Any asshole w/ a decent IQ _or_ persistence could get one IMO.  I said asshole b/c knowledge or percieveed knowledge does not directly correlate to wisdom or truth.  You could study alchemy for decades and still be unable to produce gold from iron...  or 8yrs of college and 3 degrees and still be wrong.  JMHO and observation




I cannot believe you said that. 

First of all you have to do well in your Bachelors to get accepted into a decent Master's program, and to get into a decent PhD program you have to do exceptional in your Masters.

As far a an Medical Degree, that takes more intestinal fortitude than what 90% of people even posses.

If it's so easy to get a PhD, or even a Master's degree, or hell even a Bachelors, why don't more people have them?

I am sickened at the lack of respect you guys have for education.


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## craig777 (Jan 21, 2003)

I graduated with a 3.83 GPA from the University of Texas in San Antonio with a BS in Computer Science and a minor in Mechanical Engineering. I had 219 semester hours when I graduated which is more than most PhDs have when they get done.  Couldn't make up my mind just like cornpone. 

My brother is a Pediatric Cardiologist and he isn't any smarter than I am, just took him longer to get there.


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## cornfed (Jan 21, 2003)

I respect education more than you think, but I think that a degree alone is a poor way of evaluating one's infallability or wisdom or insight.  I just hate it when the education card is pulled and one's goals in life (ie: choice to pursue a career over lengthier education) are immediately disqualification for their insight.  Education is great, but there are many educated fools on both sides.  And intestinal fortitude/persistence/work ethic do not infer wisdom or any better logic.  I'm not discrediting anyone or trying to insult anyone, I just believe that education alone is not valid grounds for others dismissal.   Is that a better representation of my stance?


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## craig777 (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> I respect education more than you think, but I think that a degree alone is a poor way of evaluating one's infallability or wisdom or insight.  I just hate it when the education card is pulled and one's goals in life (ie: choice to pursue a career over lengthier education) are immediately disqualification for their insight.  Education is great, but there are many educated fools on both sides.  And intestinal fortitude/persistence/work ethic do not infer wisdom or any better logic.  I'm not discrediting anyone or trying to insult anyone, I just believe that education alone is not valid grounds for others dismissal.   Is that a better representation of my stance?


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## cornfed (Jan 21, 2003)

I just want to add that I respect PhDs a ton for their efforts, and the time put in, but I have found that schooling isd not the only form of education.


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## cornfed (Jan 21, 2003)

but all my schooling does not make me any better typer than a kid in primary using 2 fingers   "isd"


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 21, 2003)

Why is it you won't post an answer when nail down on it?
I know you can read. The only funny thing is your real knowledge
of the bible and religions this a adult debate right. 

I won't debate body building with you but give me a break.
You have never even 8 verses much less the whole bible.

Am I going to belive what you think the bible is and say's

I have higher learning in this area. and have my own books,greek and hebrew etc. like I'm sure you do about BB

I have been reading about religions and there history for 25 yrs.
 be gald you were not born in India, you would not believe me if I told you some of there religous practices (they drink protein shakes)

 J/K they rub cow shit in their hair and dance in street proudly!

And you think Christains are funny


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## cornfed (Jan 21, 2003)

Who are you talking to?   And your 1st paragraph made no sense to me   .


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 21, 2003)

Prince sorry forgot  he ask about hell and i tried to give him a short answer how and when it was tranlated from greek hebrew but that didn't work.

there has 50 questions I ask two  nobody answered?

P.S. must be fresh and steaming if can believe that


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## cornfed (Jan 21, 2003)

another note may be to throttle back the replies... the previous one could lead to a slippery slope.  JMO


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## Arnold (Jan 21, 2003)

I do not think that education = intelligence, nor that education = wisdom.

I know plenty of intelligent people that have no college education, and I also knew plenty of people that graduated with a Bachelor's that in my opinion did not deserve it. As far as wisdom is concerned that comes with age IMO.

You get what you put in with education. You can put very little in and still get a Bachelors degree. Or, you can be someone like me who put in 110% and got a lot out of college. I used to carry a dictionary in my school backpack and if a professor used a word I did not know I looked it up in class! (I know, what a nerd) I did my very best to attend every class/lecture because I enjoyed learning, I also graduated with a shit load of credits because I changed my major, my emphasis in undergrad was sociology, psychology, philosophy and business.

I am now working on master's in business management, and had I not done well as a undergrad I would have had a hard time getting into my current school and master's program.

If someone has a PhD from a reputable school, it means quite a bit as far as their intelligence, and knowledge in their field is concerned. And they do deserve a certain amount of respect for their credentials. To discount that or say any asshole can get one is an ignorant statement.


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## Tboy (Jan 21, 2003)

A guy with a PHD is likened to a TV evangelist.   If youve seen one youve seen them all.  They must all be the same. 

Boy, this is fun...


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## cornfed (Jan 21, 2003)

granted it was rough, but it was more for emphasis than a statement of percieved fact.  And I did state that I respect it.  But as far as knowledge in a field is concerned, it based on what they are taught to a gr8 degree.  However, I guess my main thing is that you can be completely knowledgable about a chool of thought and that does not make the school of thought right.  Does that make any sense?  I guess it's like this...  (enter another of my bad analogies) ... a chemist who has spent decades in the field and is revered for his prowess that still firmly holds to his beliefs and convictions for the laws and theories that he bases his life's work upon along w/ the majority of his collegues (my spelling sux today).  What happens if (as projected) absolute zero is proven not to be the lowest possible temperature and all of the gas laws that elementary chemistry is based upon are debunked?  Is he still right?  just a thought to ponder


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## cornfed (Jan 21, 2003)

c'mon now let's hold back the sarcasm and keep it nice shall we


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## ragingbull (Jan 21, 2003)

My take on higher education is this: No matter what your level of degree, you have to be open to objective learning. What I find in the medical field is that some, not all, physicians feel that because they have an MD after their name, they know better. Fact is, MD's know a little about alot of different disease states but, chances are, since I specialize in one particular disease, I know more than they. It's what I do, it's what I learn, It's what I sell. For a MD to look at me and discredit what I say because "your not qualified", is offense. I never say they have to believe everything I say, all I ask is that they look at the information I provide through objective lenses and decide for themselves. 

Example:
Physician knowledge of Cyclosporins (Gereralized information)
1. Physician think there is only 1 modifed cyclo, there are six
2. Physician don't know pharmacodynamic and kenetics of all six, I do
3. They don't understand reimbursement. I do.
4. They don't understand the research of all six, I do.

My point is, just because I don't have an MD doesn't mean I can't offer some value to their practice. Likewise just because they are an MD doesn't mean they know everything there is to know. We all can learn from each other if we are open to learning. Tear down our biases and look at the info objectively.


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 21, 2003)

Your right cornfed  I just hate to see people misquote God and the bible.

You want to know God, read his book NASV is easy to read and a very good and accurate translations.You don't party on

 Peace to all


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## cornfed (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> My take on higher education is this: No matter what your level of degree, you have to be open to objective learning. What I find in the medical field is that some, not all, physicians feel that because they have an MD after their name, they know better. Fact is, MD's know a little about alot of different disease states but, chances are, since I specialize in one particular disease, I know more than they. It's what I do, it's what I learn, It's what I sell. For a MD to look at me and discredit what I say because "your not qualified", is offense. I never say they have to believe everything I say, all I ask is that they look at the information I provide through objective lenses and decide for themselves.
> 
> Example:
> ...


 Agreed but don't lump all MD's together.  Specialization is more a cornerstone of many fields.


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## ragingbull (Jan 21, 2003)

I agree Cornfed.


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## Arnold (Jan 21, 2003)

I know more about computers, databases and networks than any MD, so what?

An MD is an expert in their field, medicine. Does that mean they know everything, hell no. That's why there are so many specialites, it would be impossible for one MD to be an expert in every field of medicine.


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## Tboy (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> c'mon now let's hold back the sarcasm and keep it nice shall we




That was being nice.  You shouldve seen what I really meant to say. 

I was making lite of his stereotypical generalizations about Christians being like the TV money grabbers.


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## ragingbull (Jan 21, 2003)

Prince,

I was gathering from your post on higher education, that educated people deserve a greater amount of respect because of their years of education. My point is that some educated people are close minded and very subjective. Maybe they deserve a greater amount of respect...could be.  My point is look at all the evidence provided and decide on the truth. I'm saying the truth, not my truth or your truth but, the truth.  When it comes to the bible, most can be confirmed through archeological finds others through non-religious writings. I know your stance is that it's not your job to prove christianity is a farce but, our position to prove it as credible. Think about it this way; we have had 2000 years of time to prove the bible as ficticious. Neither by ancient writings, nor archeology can we find even one instance where there is a substantial compromise in the bible and infact on numerous occasions the bible is proven as correct. Never...Never... has the bible been proved wrong either in the writings nor archeology and we've spent 2000 years gathering information. Think about that. As a ancient document, there is none that can compare to the accuracy of the bible. 

If you want specifics, give me specifics, I'll do the research and get back with you.


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## coleman (Jan 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> As far as wisdom is concerned that comes with age IMO.



Most arrogant statement ever:

Prince, I am 18 and I think that you'd be of the opinion I'm wiser than some of the much older religious folk out there.

But seriously, although I don't agree with what some members here are saying about God, at least some of them can be given credit for at least knowing about their religion. Nothing gets on my nerve more than blind faith.

As they are so knowlegable, I was wondering if one of them would be so kind as to quote me a modern day example of devine intervention. Why did God help the Jews of Moses' time but not in the time of the Holocaust? What changed? God no longer wants to help out his people, surely more died in the Holocaust than in the time of the Pharohs.

Also, just a small aside question. One of what I think to be the most strong examples of how the Bible is used to explain what ignorant people a few thousand years ago didn't understand is the story of Noah's Ark. Is it not true that at the end of the story it was said that the sign of God's promise to not create a second such flood was that of the rainbow? Most people who did seconday school will know that the rainbow is caused by the refraction of the visible light wavelength through the prisms of raindrops. Is this not some sort of proof that the Bible is used to explain what people did not know and that some magical all powerful being was behind it rather than some other, logical explaination?


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## ZECH (Jan 21, 2003)

Prince, just one question. Why do most people that have a Masters or PHD, think they are better than everone else? Is it because they think they are smarter or because they know they have the money to get it?


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## ragingbull (Jan 21, 2003)

Genesis 9: 16-17 

"Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth" 17 So God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on earth"

So you can see the rainbow is just the reminder of the covenant with God and man.  God didn't just make a rainbow after the event.

As why people in modern times act in hidious ways i.e. Hitler. God is the ultimate gentleman. He will not make you except him nor will he make you act on his behalf. Hitler acted out of his human nature. Human nature, left to itself, is destructive. Take God out of the equasion and mankind would destroy itself. Germany was a microcausim of this. In the old testiment the world only had the miracles that proved the power of God. (This next part is a little deep). When Christ was nail to the cross, God sent his spirit to be with man. Not to say that miracles do not happen today, but, christian believe they have the holy spirit with them daily. It's like having direct access to God.


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 22, 2003)

Very good RB,

md's phd's read Romans:1,22

"Professing to be wise ,they became fools"

more to it read 18-27


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by coleman *_
> Most arrogant statement ever:
> 
> Prince, I am 18 and I think that you'd be of the opinion I'm wiser than some of the much older religious folk out there.



I guess we're defining _wisdom_ differently. In this context I am defining wisdom as knowledge that is obtained thru age. I guess you could say I am using an "older" definition of the word.

regardless of my higher education I do not think that i will ever be wiser than my elders.


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Prince, just one question. Why do most people that have a Masters or PHD, think they are better than everone else? Is it because they think they are smarter or because they know they have the money to get it?



that is a generalization, you cannot say everyone that has a master's or PhD thinks that they're better or smarter than others. 

Maybe some do, but I do not think the majority think this way.

anyone can go to college with federal student loans, you do not need money.


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> My point is that some educated people are close minded and very subjective. Maybe they deserve a greater amount of respect...could be.



hmmm....that is how I see christians, closed minded and they fail to see things with objectivity, but I guess anyone can be this way, educated or not, religeous or not.

I like to think that I am open minded and objective, although I admit I am very opinionated. But I am open to new ideas and I try to see things without bias.


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## cornfed (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by coleman *_
> Most arrogant statement ever:
> 
> I am 18 and I think that you'd be of the opinion I'm wiser than some of the much older religious folk out there.


If it's any consolation, I agree w/ the preface, but not the latter. 

and as for wisdom... IMO the best use of this word is descernment, many times a result of the combination of knowledge about the issue or subject and either the experience or the ability to understand the subject from a non-academic point of view, as ethics and moral grounding are not academic in nature.


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## cornfed (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> hmmm....that is how I see christians, closed minded and they fail to see things with objectivity, but I guess anyone can be this way, educated or not, religeous or not.
> 
> I like to think that I am open minded and objective, although I admit I am very opinionated. But I am open to new ideas and I try to see things without bias.


Well, I guess I see myself in much the same manner...  am I really agreeing    LOL


and I'M NOT closed minded, and I don't care what any  of you think about it... BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!!!


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

Just an example:  I have been drinking dairy milk my entire life but I am now thinking that maybe it's not very healthy and I have added soy milk to my diet, and I am going to _try_ and switch completely to soy milk.

we'll see....


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## ragingbull (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> that is a generalization, you cannot say everyone that has a master's or PhD thinks that they're better or smarter than others.
> 
> Maybe some do, but I do not think the majority think this way.
> ...



Agreed, I was using a generalized statement. But wouldn't you agree that someone with a higher degree of education on a specific topic would hold themselves in a higher place than someone without that formal education (on that topic). My point was even someone without that specific education could bring some value to the eduated.

As far as wisdom coming from age....That only applies to the everday effects of life and how there interact with one another. If you never educate yourself on specific topics, all the life experience will never help.


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## cornfed (Jan 22, 2003)

But cows are good  

actually, I'm theorizing w/ a food science prof right now about how to leach milk of lactose w/o altering the rest of the milk and then substituting w/ aspartame or sucralose.   on a side note, I have a Cornfed's recipe for a milk substitute that has moderate fat.


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## ragingbull (Jan 22, 2003)

200th Post. Just wanted to make sure that I left it here. I enjoy this debate.  This is still MMFITER'S fault!!


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ragingbull *_
> But wouldn't you agree that someone with a higher degree of education on a specific topic would hold themselves in a higher place than someone without that formal education (on that topic). My point was even someone without that specific education could bring some value to the eduated.



yes to the first part of the question in most cases.

and yes to the second. 

If you have 20 years experience in a specific field than I think you will have in depth knowledge of that subject. 

Here's a real life example: My father had over 20 years in the fire department, 10 years as a training officer. He was accredited to teach Fire Science at the university level based on experience, he had no formal degree.


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> yes to the first part of the question in most cases.
> 
> and yes to the second.
> ...



Prince Ya me too,

 But you are on a suject you reallly have not studied? 

Do you seriously you want  to debate the end of the book?

I wonder if you have ever read Rev.? much less the whole thing.
A like a lot o people think they know but do they really?

Example :Noah, everybody knows the story right? I proved you didn't.


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tidalwaverus *_
> Example :Noah, everybody knows the story right? I proved you didn't.



huh? 

lost me on that one.

I am familiar with the story of Noah's Ark, is that what you're referring to?


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## ragingbull (Jan 22, 2003)

Tidalwave,

Coleman was actually  the one who had the question in regard to Noah's ark.


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

damn,  tidalwaverus!

get your crap straight!


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## Freeman (Jan 22, 2003)




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## ZECH (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> that is a generalization, you cannot say everyone that has a master's or PhD thinks that they're better or smarter than others.
> 
> Maybe some do, but I do not think the majority think this way.
> ...


Yeah I said most....certainly not everyone is like this, but I have met a few that do. You would still have to repay the loans, and in these days if you don't make(six figures or better), it's hard to pay bills(Home, taxes,cars, food, children,utilities ect.) and still be able to repay loans. Hell, I can't make it on that.


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## cornfed (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> yes to the first part of the question in most cases.
> 
> and yes to the second.
> ...


Ah, but what is truly knowledge... a justified true belief?  Does the justification for such a belief actually exist or is it only percieved?  If justification cannot come w/o any predispositions by the thinker or by their teacher/mentor, is knowledge really a collection of commonly held beliefs?  Are commonly held beliefs neccessarily true if they are based on percieved justification?  If I were to believe that flipping a light switch would trigger a responce in the form of light, would that belief be true?  What if the bulb was burnt out?  Does that make the principle false?  


that's all I have to say for now


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Yeah I said most....certainly not everyone is like this, but I have met a few that do. You would still have to repay the loans, and in these days if you don't make(six figures or better), it's hard to pay bills(Home, taxes,cars, food, children,utilities ect.) and still be able to repay loans. Hell, I can't make it on that.



well, if you get a bachelors, masters, or phd hopefully you will be able to make more money with each higher degree, thus be able to afford repaying the loans, that's the theory anyway. 

Do you realize how much debt is incurred from medical school? $100,000 - $200,000 depending on the school, or more. However, once you graduate and start working your salary will be $100,000/year or more.

Most companies will either pay a % of your education costs, and some will even pay 100%. My company pays $350 per class, and there is no limit.

I really do not think that not having money is ever an excuse for not going to college except in extreme circumstances where it is just not feasible, and even then where there's a will there's a way.

I have known poor single mother's working two jobs that found a way to put themselves thru college.


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## cornfed (Jan 22, 2003)

WTF?  do _I_ not get a response?


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## Arnold (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> WTF?  do _I_ not get a response?



your post was too damn philosophical. 

that whole Descarte doubting thing...do I really exist? 

maybe we are all just figments of our own imaginations?


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## cornfed (Jan 22, 2003)

But in all actuality, Descarte was disproving skepticism in the writing to which many base what you just stated... common misconception.   

Oh, BTW... that was more Cornfedesque than a product of Descarte.  I do not subscribe to the notion of the 3 /or 4pt def of knowledge.  And I just wanted to throw a big-ass monkey wrench into an otherwise prelude to ADD thread as I've seen it from the get-go   .  This'll never go anywhere and I guarantee that noone will profit from it other than confusion, irritation, and the only positive of maybe confirming their own beliefs.  And that's why I'm into philosophy, oppologetics and the like... though it does not tend to provide any benefit in #s.  But then again, you already know what I think of the thread as a whole


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## cornfed (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> maybe we are all just figments of our own imaginations?


Or a brain in a vat ...


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## Freeman (Jan 22, 2003)

OR, maybe we are all just part of some guy's dream, and when he wakes up, we'll all cease to exist!!! 

chew on that one!  freaky huh?!


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## cornfed (Jan 22, 2003)

Naw... now your getting into the philosophical relm of Hinduism... we are all a part of brahman's fantastic dream


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## Freeman (Jan 22, 2003)

hehe, cornfed, just read your quote from Zakk Wylde..THAT'S FUCKING HILARIOUS!  He's such a tough sunuva bitch!


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## cornfed (Jan 22, 2003)

Isn't it a good thing that I stopped smoking pot and doing the occasional shrooms back in jr high   otherwise I might be even more fuqqed up


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## cornfed (Jan 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by freeman1504 *_
> hehe, cornfed, just read your quote from Zakk Wylde..THAT'S FUCKING HILARIOUS!  He's such a tough sunuva bitch!


he and I share alot of common views... and he's almost as opinionated as I, too


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 22, 2003)

Well to retort ,again you think you know the story but you don't and ya didn't know the answer .

I'll try again Genesis chapter 7 verse 2 "You shall take with you of every clean animal by SEVENS," read the rest yourself. Get the story right PLZ

and the rainbow thing

There was no rain, therefore no  rainbows yet!  Gen:2:6 but a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole ground.

and the jews long story, just a fact" God said he would send them to the four corners of the earth and bring them back" almost 2,000 yrs ago in 1948 this was fulfilled. No other race in history has recoved like this. 

and you have no Idea what rules they follow why they copy the law. 

prince , Eat and drink for tomorrow you die still don't know the answer do ya? you wanted to debate this issue then read it. Then we will talk.


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## Tboy (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tidalwaverus *_
> and the jews long story, just a fact" God said he would send them to the four corners of the earth and bring them back" almost 2,000 yrs ago in 1948 this was fulfilled. No other race in history has recoved like this.



He thinks that this is one of those self fullfilling prophecies...


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## ZECH (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Do you realize how much debt is incurred from medical school? $100,000 - $200,000 depending on the school, or more. However, once you graduate and start working your salary will be $100,000/year or more.


Yes I do...My sister in law is a doctor. She makes over 200g/year and it takes a very large chunk of her salary to repay the loans. She lives very close to IPMC. (Roadtrip coming up in several months)!!!!!!!!


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> He thinks that this is one of those self fullfilling prophecies...



What now you are going to explain bible prophecies to me.
you have no clue do ya, never even read the whole bible have ya?what school did you go to?

You think I'm going to listen to your intrepition of the bible.

oh by the way where is it? enlighten us all


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## ALBOB (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_  otherwise I might be even more fuqqed up



You mean you're NOT???


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tidalwaverus *_
> Well to retort ,again you think you know the story but you don't and ya didn't know the answer .
> 
> I'll try again Genesis chapter 7 verse 2 "You shall take with you of every clean animal by SEVENS," read the rest yourself. Get the story right PLZ
> ...




I do not need to be able to quote the bible to have this debate, that is just stupid.


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## Freeman (Jan 23, 2003)

agreed, that is stupid. :nod:


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## kuso (Jan 23, 2003)

Damned dudes...didn`t like half of you say about 6 pages back that "that" was the last you`d say on this subject???

You are all liars and going to he!!


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I do not need to be able to quote the bible to have this debate, that is just stupid.



But you would sound more intellagent if you did.

just like you then I could tell you It say's anything.

 How in Gods name would you know the differance?


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## kuso (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tidalwaverus *_
> 
> 
> just like you then I could tell you It say's anything.
> ...



Admittedly...I`m fucking rolling drunk....but this makes no sense to me at ALL!!!!!!!!!!1111


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tidalwaverus *_
> But you would sound more intellagent if you did.



if you read all of my posts in this thread you would know that what is written in the current translations of the bible is so misinterpreted it really make very little difference.

in fact, that is a large part of this debate, the fact the the bible has been mistranslated and literlized to the point where it has lost it's original meaning.

please read this entire thread and pay particular attention to my posts before you insult me.

you are taking bits and pieces of what I have said out of context and trying to discredit me because I cannot quote the bible. I couldn't care less about quoting the bible, it has very little to do with my arguments here.

also, you are confusing my posts and opinions with what others have said. use direct quotes of what I posted before you post your responses claiming that I did not know something.


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## tidalwaverus (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> if you read all of my posts in this thread you would know that what is written in the current translations of the bible is so misinterpreted it really make very little difference.
> 
> in fact, that is a large part of this debate, the fact the the bible has been mistranslated and literlized to the point where it has lost it's original meaning.
> ...



Like wise, Your undersranding of who and what has been mistranslated is what? give an example?????

quote and read are different.

And insult you  No you did that to yourself claiming you know what your taking about. 

How can you? All I ask you to do was READ 8 verses so you would know what your taking about. Will you? No. Why? 

Prince, are you never wrong? 

I surrender Let's just stick to BB something you Know more about

Peace


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## cornfed (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ALBOB *_
> You mean you're NOT???


Yeah, ponder that 'lil tid bit of info....  it could be worse


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## ALBOB (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by cornfed *_
> Yeah, ponder that 'lil tid bit of info....  it could be worse



OWWWWW................My brain.


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by tidalwaverus *_
> Prince, are you never wrong?



Of course, but not about anything I have posted in this thread. 

So, if I go read the entire bible (or 8 versus) that will change my opinion on what I am debating here?

If that's what you think, again you are missing my entire argument here. 

Please read all of my *57* posts in this thread so you understand my stance on this issue.


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## irontime (Jan 23, 2003)

*tidalwaverus* 
This whole debate you have been leaning on one subject, read the bible. Well what if we did and still did not agree (such as myself) All it means is that you are a little more subjectable than us. We just refuse to believe that because something was written on paper that it is correct.

If I'm walking in a field and see a piece of cowshit and someone tells me it's steak, I don't need to taste it to know it's not steak. 
Same annalysis here.


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## kuso (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by irontime *_
> *tidalwaverus*
> 
> 
> ...



If they told you it was sirloin, you just might take a niggle though


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## Freeman (Jan 23, 2003)

cow patties...mmmmmmmmmmmm


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## irontime (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> If they told you it was sirloin, you just might take a niggle though


I'm pretty sure you'd go sniff at it there Fido


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## Tboy (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Of course, but not about anything I have posted in this thread.




That's a matter of opinion....  Yours.


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> That's a matter of opinion....  Yours.



yup, all we have been posting in this thread is our opinions, right?


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## cornfed (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> If they told you it was sirloin, you just might take a niggle though


LOL that's the best post in this thread, hands and cowpatties down


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## Tboy (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> yup, all we have been posting in this thread is our opinions, right?




Umm...  

I think several were more actual/factual than others.


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tboy *_
> Umm...
> 
> I think several were more actual/factual than others.




well, yeah most of my posts. 


I am officially done with this thread, there is no sense in beating a dead horse any longer.


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## Tboy (Jan 23, 2003)

Me too.  Im spent.

I have decided that you'll never learn.


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