# Reason for being "natural"?



## Tuco (Mar 5, 2012)

For those who are natural, what's your reason to choose being natural? 
Legality?
Price? 
Availability?
Morals?


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## jgostained (Mar 5, 2012)

PITBULL915 said:


> For those who are natural, what's your reason to choose being natural?
> Legality?
> Price?
> Availability?
> Morals?



working on the post count so I can start up a pm conversation and get unnatural with it after about ten thousand questions

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


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## bjg (Mar 6, 2012)

money is no issue at all for me
Number 1 reason: health , physical and mental
Number 2: better results in the long run 
Number 3: the challenge and the satisfaction
number 4: i am not competing against anybody.
number 5 : it is the real thing no cheating no BS
number 6 : i don't think i need it
number 7: too lazy to keep following up with blood tests and to worry...bodybuilding for me is a stress reliever not a stress inducing activity,
number 8: the juicers that i know around me could not convince me yet since i am not really impressed by them (ask if they are
number 9: i don't like the little side effects such as puffy face and mood swings etc,,,


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## myCATpowerlifts (Mar 6, 2012)

bjg said:


> money is no issue at all for me
> Number 1 reason: health , physical and mental
> Number 2: better results in the long run
> Number 3: the challenge and the satisfaction
> ...




This x 10.


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## myCATpowerlifts (Mar 6, 2012)

I'll add another one:

You never really lose your gains....It's always easy to get back into shape even after long breaks.


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## bjg (Mar 6, 2012)

thats true....i could sleep for a year  and loose all my muscles and i bet i can get it all back in one month.


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## PushAndPull (Mar 6, 2012)

I like being 36 with a full head of hair


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## Trenjunky (Mar 6, 2012)

bjg said:


> thats true....i could sleep for a year  and loose all my muscles and i bet i can get it all back in one month.



The reason for that is muscle memory, and it's the same for juicers too.


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## Tuco (Mar 6, 2012)

Before I went to the dark side, my biggest issue was morality. I had a bunch of younger family members look up to me and their friends as well. They always asked me, "how do I get big muscles". I always told them diet and training go hand in hand with consistency being key. When I started debating on juicing what really got me down was the kids, I thought to myself, what would they think of me since they look up to me and I set a certain example for them. Ultimately, I decided to start using, I keep my usage private and only my best friend/training partner knows of my actual use. I think later on as the kids grow to be men, I will guide them to research and educate themselves on the use of AAS and let them make their own decision.


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## so1970 (Mar 6, 2012)

i have nothing against steroids but i'm still seeing gains in the gym so i dont see the need for them yet. also the place i work does drug testing , and reports findings to the coast guard [which could affect my license]


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## ebn2002 (Mar 7, 2012)

1.  I can't even take vitamins on a proper schedule.

2.  My motivation (as this is just a hobby of mine) and availability tends to come and go.  I would start a cycle and get busy at work or something and not be able to work out as much as I should and waste it.

3.  I have never been consistent enough to hit my natural limit and don't need roids to get there, just need to not take long breaks every summer.

But one day, gears.


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## bjg (Mar 7, 2012)

Trenjunky said:


> The reason for that is muscle memory, and it's the same for juicers too.



juicers can never rebuild their muscles fast without the juice.
Juice = dependency
natural = true muscle

the only reason to go for AAS is  if you turn pro and make your living out of bodybuilding.


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## BP2000 (Mar 7, 2012)

If they re-build muscles without the juice then they wouldn't be juicers.


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## Merkaba (Mar 9, 2012)

1. I look better than 99% of the roided guys I see.  
2. I see no reason to if you're not trying to be a pro body builder/lifter/competitor. Why?  So you can be the strongest, best looking buy in your group of friends?  
3.  I'm not messing with ANYTHING that can potentially mess with or interrupt anything having to do with my sex life.


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## stfuandliftbtch (Mar 9, 2012)

if i were to of been natural...it would of been to see what i can turn myself in to. what kind of machine i can make myself into without help.


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## Curt James (Mar 9, 2012)

PITBULL915 said:


> For those who are natural, what's your reason to choose being natural?
> *Legality*?
> Price?
> Availability?
> Morals?



Now that I'm >< to 50 years old there's no more worries on legality, I guess, as I could get a prescription from my family doctor?

Knowledge has always held me back and the fact that I'm built like a Chihuahua -- why put a VTEC engine in a Yugo frame? 

Still, and again, since I'm nearing that half century mark, it _would _be interesting to see if adding AAS to the equation would give me an energy boost, etc.

Guess it comes down to just not having the time or interest to fully educate myself on the process, get a doctor on board, and pursue a non-natural route.


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## Tuco (Mar 9, 2012)

Curt James said:


> Now that I'm >< to 50 years old there's no more worries on legality, I guess, as I could get a prescription from my family doctor?
> 
> Knowledge has always held me back and the fact that I'm built like a Chihuahua -- why put a VTEC engine in a Yugo frame?
> 
> ...



Superhuman Radio with Carl Lenore has touched on the topic of trt numerous times, you should check out the podcasts. The benefits of trt from what I understand are great! Women go through menopause and Men go through andropause, only difference is that women get treated and men don't.... Get informed CJ! You could be the like captain America lol. But in all seriousness, if I were up there in age, I would get on trt, not even for the purpose of building muscle but for the other health benefits of trt.


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## Noheawaiian (Mar 9, 2012)

My friends, if you're natural and look good then by all means, stay natural. If you're on the verge of going the aas route, you're 25+ years old, and you've got all your facts straight, then you'll be fine; otherwise, just stay  natty and have the benefit of being a natty when people ask if you're on steroids. 

Decent genetics + no aas + training + eating well = great physique. 

Decent genetics + aas + training + eating well = great physique

Genetics of pork + aas + no training + eating lard =


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## ckcrown84 (Mar 10, 2012)

ebn2002 said:


> 1.  I can't even take vitamins on a proper schedule.
> 
> 2.  My motivation (as this is just a hobby of mine) and availability tends to come and go.  I would start a cycle and get busy at work or something and not be able to work out as much as I should and waste it.
> 
> ...



I have a buddy like this. I advise him not to take PHs (he wanted to) But he can't even take a vitamin or creatine on a steady schedule.


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## ckcrown84 (Mar 10, 2012)

Also, no offense to anyone here--and I mean this. 

To all the people that are natural and have achieved good physiques then good for you. I trained for a great many years naturally (not even taking creatine, or protein supplements just eating food and training). 

I see many people on this forum, and other forums, that use AAS that don't have very impressive physiques. I am just doing my first cycle of non-PH and I don't even consider MYSELF to have gotten that great of results (next time I run I will use significantly hire dosages and see what happens). That being said, nothing beats diet and hard training. 


If you use AAS good for you, if you don't good for you. My point is simply that you can look good by any standard without them. But, you can be bigger and better with the use of AAS if you train and eat properly.


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## Curt James (Mar 10, 2012)

PITBULL915 said:


> *Superhuman Radio with Carl Lenore has touched on the topic of trt numerous times, you should check out the podcasts. *The benefits of trt from what I understand are great! Women go through menopause and Men go through andropause, only difference is that women get treated and men don't.... Get informed CJ! You could be the like captain America lol. But in all seriousness, if I were up there in age,* I would get on trt, not even for the purpose of building muscle but for the other health benefits of trt.*



Good advice. 

And Carl Lenore gave me his testosterone pitch directly. IronMagLabs spokesman Aaron Singerman and Lenore had a show called "Off Topic" a while back. I appeared at the very tail end of the one show.

*Off Topic Radio (06-09-10): IFBB Pro Guy Cisternino & RXMUSCLE.COM forum member Curt James - RX Muscle Mag*

IFBB Pro Guy Cisternino was the headliner.


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## Thresh (Mar 10, 2012)

bjg said:


> juicers can never rebuild their muscles fast without the juice.
> Juice = dependency
> natural = true muscle
> 
> the only reason to go for AAS is  if you turn pro and make your living out of bodybuilding.



I see so much wrong with this statement. 

I feel like a million bucks just running test cyp. Overall happiness and quality of life improved. Let's face it, watching yourself transform before your eyes every week just keeps the train chugging along. 


5"10
195lbs

Currently cycle:
Cruising on 250mg Test Cyp/week.


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## bjg (Mar 10, 2012)

Thresh said:


> I see so much wrong with this statement.
> 
> I feel like a million bucks just running test cyp. Overall happiness and quality of life improved. Let's face it, watching yourself transform before your eyes every week just keeps the train chugging along.
> 
> ...


most of it is in your head you just forgot how it is to be natural...you get the same rush and the same feeling of transformation  even when you are natural... all you need is focus and motivation , at my age i still see improvements within a week of hard training.


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## dav1dg90 (Mar 11, 2012)

bjg said:


> most of it is in your head you just forgot how it is to be natural...you get the same rush and the same feeling of transformation even when you are natural... all you need is focus and motivation , at my age i still see improvements within a week of hard training.


 
UGGGHH You have no clue bro!!! I am not even going to comment on yet again another great thread about being a lame joe smoe lmao.


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## BP2000 (Mar 11, 2012)

biggest reason is to not have to be on TRT at 40 yo.


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## myCATpowerlifts (Mar 13, 2012)

BP2000 said:


> biggest reason is to not have to be on TRT at 40 yo.



This.

But seriously.

Who wants to be dependent on anything external for happiness?
To achieve your goals?

Let me be the first to say this, when I was a Kid I started reading Muscle and fitness magazines because I couldn't believe real people could look like super-humans.

I wanted to be like the Incredible Hulk when I was a child.

Then I grew up and realized that in order to be that way, I'd have to take the steroids, ph's, etc etc....

It's just too much for me.

At the risk of sounding homo, I'm very in touch with my body.
I'm a sensitive person, and I just couldn't deal with the fear of fucking up injections, shrinking my testicles, etc etc.

I would feel CHAINED to the drugs and I would be so anal, because it's expensive and you really have to do it right from start to finish.

I enjoy being a care-free person as much as possible.

That's just the personal side.


The other side is as mentioned above.

If you're natural 100%, you always know where you're at. You will always know how much further you can go.
You will always know that you are at your best, or thereabouts.
Know what I mean? no Post-cycle non-sense to deal with.

From my recreational drug use, i know that I hate the roller coaster of getting high and then crashing down.

Fuck that man.

All natty.


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## bjg (Mar 13, 2012)

^^^^^ agree ..once you depend on steroids you are going to face  "crashing down" then in your head you will always think that you cannot get back without steroids. You might gain muscles but you will kill your spirit.
if you are natural then there is no roller coaster effect, no crashing down and you are always improving with time..and when you get down (if you had to stop training) then it is not dramatic and depressive..and you quickly can get back...in short you are always improving and in fact unlike what most would think...when you are natural you can never say you reached your peak, ..as you mature you learn more about your body and your training becomes more efficient and you improve...at my age now (50) my goal is to get back to my best shape ever (which was by the way at 40 !), is it realistic??? hell YES!


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## Merkaba (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm 35, 36 in July.  I'm on a perpetual cut right now.  I was up to right at 270 a year ago, with a six pack, natural.  I can tell my joints/body weren't made to carry that weight.  I just feel better overall that I've come down Currently at 240 and not stopping.  I'm tired of "being big-ger" ...  Hell i never really wanted to be that big but realized that I was.  You look at an old pic and you're like dang, I was big(slightly fat in comparison to me now) I couldn't deny it. Now I'm trying to cut...naturally, perhaps do another show.  Talk about a challenge.  We all aren't going for the same goals.  I mean, it's not just about getting bigger for alot of us, natural or assisted.  I take a small small small percentage of offense to statements that assume every guy is trying to get bigger.  

And hell now, I get so many fuckers asking and swearing I've taken something that it's more of a reason not to!  I'm getting ready to get a tank top made that says 100% Natural or some shit on it, with a logo I had done up just to silence the minds of those wondering. When i'm in the gym, all I talk about is eating, what I'm gonna eat when i get home...people think I'm joking when I tell them what I eat or how much, and that as far as I'm concerned it's 90% of the equation for someone who is experienced at lifting.  They think I'm joking, but meanwhile think I'm "using"...cause i can't be serious.  I'm like dude I've been lifting since 7th grade.  " I bet you workout everyday don't you.."  No...  ETC...shit gets old.  The meathead assumptions, etc.  I tell people look, with what I know(not that I know everything) but if I were on something, oh you wouldn't have to ask bro!  I don't come to the gym to sit on a ball or do abs.  I'd be blowing some shit out in the rack injuring myself or a bystander I know it.  I would love to know how it feels, but hell I'd love to know how heroine feels too!


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## Watson (Mar 14, 2012)

i just started going to the gym so i could stay off smokes and weed
having smoked since i was maybe 13-14 (cigs) ive never felt better,
gym 90 mins a day, 45 swimming laps, 3 hours walking (sprints every 5 mins)

i lost weight, gained really good muscle compared to before i started (note i said BEFORE i started, i still aint nothing!)
can put my wife through the headboard when required (not fast enough out the window!)

dont see any need yet, although i do take caffeine tablets cause i loved those sports drinks and the pills without the sugar i like, and they open up the airways and help me cough up a lifetime of smoking deposits


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## ThreeGigs (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm natural because I'm not ready for gear yet.
I don't know if I will ever be ready, but I know I'm not ready now.
If and when I am ready, my biggest reason for not doing gear would be the sides. The whole idea of needing PCT kills most thoughts of any kind of cycle. Perhaps if there was something mild enough to not need PCT, I might consider it, but even H-Drol, which is probably the mildest PH, needs PCT. And getting the gear is easy, it's getting the Nolva or Clomid or whatever else is needed for PCT that's a pain. 

The above said, I'm almost 46, and I am seriously considering going to get my test levels checked. However if my test is low, deciding to go on TRT or getting test 'booster shots' or whatever the terminology is, would depend on the cost.


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## Bonesaw (Mar 19, 2012)

I would love to try them, but I got a ton of small questions still about overlooked details no one talked about on cycle. Like pinning and making sure PCT is 100%.  The only I want to take or ever would take would be test e or c.


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## bjg (Mar 19, 2012)

the only one i have seen take steroids "smartly" if it exists ..is a friend of mine who takes only primobolan injections about two injections a week no PCT no nothing and he does that for around 8 weeks  twice a year. he looks good but nothing you cannot achieve without steroids, in fact he looks better than me and especially leaner but i  am much stronger, but him looking better (leaner) could also be due to the fact that he is more serious about his diet (he is very serious and very dedicated), and of course he is 10 years younger!


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## Bonesaw (Mar 21, 2012)

I want to do first cycle this winter.  Hopefully get all my loose ends covered by then.


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## GreatWhiteTruth (Mar 22, 2012)

Bonesaw said:


> ...  The only I want to take or ever would take would be test e or c.



You say that now, but wait until you are 6 weeks into your first cycle and feeling like a god... This is what can turn a user into an abuser.


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## Bonesaw (Mar 23, 2012)

I worried about losing everything post cycle,  Been reading story's and logs about people taking what seems like a good post cycle and still losing all gains.


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## bjg (Mar 24, 2012)

the faster you gain the faster you loose ! muscle built with time is the muscle that will last. When you use steroids your gains will last only if:
1-You are already built and have many years of lifting behind you
2- the steroid dosage you used is minimal in a way it will not cause any testosterone shut down of your system
3- you keep the same level of workout after you stop steroids
4- your gains are done slowly, that is it is better to use a minimal dosage of steroids over a longer period than too much steroids over a short period.
for example instead of using for example a normal dosage of 200mg of test a week for 12 weeks, use 100 or even 50 mg a week for 18 weeks this will give you a push and will probably not cause any post cycle problems.
in short if you insist on using steroids let it be used to just give you a small push  rather than rely on it.
Any regular cycle dosage like the one used by most juicers will only give you temporary short lived results and Post cycle side effects and problems to worry about. and no matter what you do you will loose all your gains if not more, pct or not.


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## Bonesaw (Mar 24, 2012)

never thought of it like that,  it seems that strategy is exactly what I'd be after.


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## bjg (Mar 25, 2012)

the best is to stay natural ...but if you insist on steroids then  your best strategy is to start lifting seriously for about a month , raise your level of training a bit before starting steroids. then use only things like test p or e or c or something like primobolan depot if you can find real ones.take a minimal dose for example: if a suggested cycle of primobolan (as an example ) is 200-400 mg a week for 12 weeks then take 100 mg a week only for 15 weeks, same goes for test just take a minimal dose so that you are supplementing or helping your system with testosterone instead of replacing it , the idea is to give a small boost without making your testosterone production be altered or shut down. Also your diet must be very rich in protein  and low sodium. if you do it like that then no need for pct or anything and when you stop steroids you will not go down fast, ...at least you will not notice it and you might keep some gains even if your gains were not big.
remember unlike what some think: small gains and slow gains could be kept ....fast and big gains will be lost totally.


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## Bonesaw (Mar 26, 2012)

So no Pct is needed? shouldn't an AI be taken throughout the cycle? Anywhere I could read up more on this.


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## bjg (Mar 26, 2012)

if you stay within therapeutic limits then no need for pct, you will see results especially if you are clean ...you will not see big results but you will see results that will motivate you. The idea is not to overload your system with testosterone causing your testicles to shut down and/or start having estrogen problems. you have to just give yourself a small boost. 
primobolan if you can find some real ones not fake are your best choice, my friend has been using them for years taking minimal dosages for few weeks twice a year and primo does not need pct. people think that primo is for cutting , in fact all steroids will make you gain muscle, and primo will make you gain muscle without water retention which makes you feel you are cutting. with some other steroids it  is mostly water. the problem with primo is that it is expensive. I am not sure about  test but probably  if taken with dosages as prescribed by a doctor does not need pct. A good way of being on the safe side is to check the normal cycle dosage and divide it by 4. lets say 200mg weekly is used in a cycle normally then take 50 mg weekly.
Do not fool yourself, any higher dosages will mess you up and you don't want that. addiction to steroids will not only hurt you physically but will also kill your self confidence and your drive


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## Standard Donkey (Mar 26, 2012)

bjg said:


> if you stay within therapeutic limits then no need for pct, you will see results especially if you are clean ...you will not see big results but you will see results that will motivate you. The idea is not to overload your system with testosterone causing your testicles to shut down and/or start having estrogen problems. you have to just give yourself a small boost.
> primobolan if you can find some real ones not fake are your best choice, my friend has been using them for years taking minimal dosages for few weeks twice a year and primo does not need pct. people think that primo is for cutting , in fact all steroids will make you gain muscle, and primo will make you gain muscle without water retention which makes you feel you are cutting. with some other steroids it  is mostly water. the problem with primo is that it is expensive. I am not sure about  test but probably  if taken with dosages as prescribed by a doctor does not need pct. A good way of being on the safe side is to check the normal cycle dosage and divide it by 4. lets say 200mg weekly is used in a cycle normally then take 50 mg weekly.
> Do not fool yourself, any higher dosages will mess you up and you don't want that. addiction to steroids will not only hurt you physically but will also kill your self confidence and your drive



seriously.. please shut the fuck up


you do not have a clue what you are talking about.


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## Standard Donkey (Mar 26, 2012)

Bonesaw, do not listen to bjg.. he is a fucking idiot.


pm me if you want correct answers to your questions


that goes for everyone else who is considering gear but doesn't know anything about it.. hit me up and ill drop some knowledge on you (been researching for 3 years and planned dozens of cycles for other people)


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## Standard Donkey (Mar 26, 2012)

and a lot of people posting here are nothing but self-righteous morons.

the level of ignorance and idiocy in this thread is beyond measure


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## blergs. (Mar 26, 2012)

PITBULL915 said:


> Before I went to the dark side, my biggest issue was morality. I had a bunch of younger family members look up to me and their friends as well. They always asked me, "how do I get big muscles". I always told them diet and training go hand in hand with consistency being key. When I started debating on juicing what really got me down was the kids, I thought to myself, what would they think of me since they look up to me and I set a certain example for them. Ultimately, I decided to start using, I keep my usage private and only my best friend/training partner knows of my actual use. I think later on as the kids grow to be men, I will guide them to research and educate themselves on the use of AAS and let them make their own decision.



couldnt have said it better


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## bigbenj (Mar 27, 2012)

Standard Donkey said:


> and a lot of people posting here are nothing but self-righteous morons.
> 
> the level of ignorance and idiocy in this thread is beyond measure


couldnt have said it better


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## bigbenj (Mar 27, 2012)

I don't know how bjg can speak as an authority, when he hasn't even tried AAS himself. You're giving out advice off of what you've read, not personal experience?

The only person in this thread I would even listen to is Merkaba. Even then, I think he talks a bigger game than he plays. The rest of you are just anonymous internet posters.


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## bigbenj (Mar 27, 2012)

bjg said:


> the faster you gain the faster you loose ! muscle built with time is the muscle that will last. When you use steroids your gains will last only if:
> 1-You are already built and have many years of lifting behind you
> 2- *the steroid dosage you used is minimal in a way it will not cause any testosterone shut down of your system
> *3- you keep the same level of workout after you stop steroids
> ...



WOW, this is some of the most uneducated shit I have ever read. 50mg a week? Are you kidding me? That wont do jack shit. Thats not even enough for a lot of women who use a little juice.....and, don't even get me started on that last part. Complete fucking ignorance.


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## jimm (Mar 27, 2012)

lmao at this dude telling people to use 50 mg of test a weel for 18 weeks hahahaha


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## bigbenj (Mar 27, 2012)

When did 200mg of T/wk for 12 weeks become the standard? That is nothing more than cruising. All you're going to do is be replacing your natural T with an exogenous source.


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## bigbenj (Mar 27, 2012)

It's this simple. Most people who don't juice aren't avoiding it because of legal or moral reasons. Usually, they're just scared.


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## jimm (Mar 27, 2012)

bigbenj said:


> It's this simple. Most people who don't juice aren't avoiding it because of legal or moral reasons. Usually, they're just scared.



pretty much man. but whys it always the people who dont take it who know the most about it ahaha this whole thread is a joke well what that bjg dude is saying any way...


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## sofargone561 (Mar 27, 2012)

to puss to push needles or to poor to afford gear only 2 reasons i know of


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## bigbenj (Mar 27, 2012)

Rofl^^^


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## sofargone561 (Mar 27, 2012)

i like this like feature it makes me feel like im on facebook, only instead of haldf naked 10 year old guys its half naked 40 year old dudes i


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## bigbenj (Mar 27, 2012)

I don't think you will find any educated gear users on here saying that there aren't any unwanted side effects. There are, but, there are many ways to combat the side effects, and the pros outweigh the cons, by a long shot.

There are plenty of guys who run a cycle or two THE PROPER WAY, do pct THE PROPER WAY, and come out of it with a year of progress squashed down into only 8-12 weeks, and they are able to fully recover and hold onto these gains. Some guys have a harder time recovering, theres no doubt about that, but, they aren't losing all their progress UNLESS THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK THEY'RE DOING.

Run a cycle, do a proper pct, keep eating big and training hard, and you will hold onto most your gains. Say you gained 15lbs on cycle, and after pct, only kept 7-8 lbs, that's still 7-8lbs gained in a matter of two months. Anyone who says they aren't tempted by that is just lying to themselves.


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## sofargone561 (Mar 27, 2012)

i went from 189lbs to 219lbs my first cycle im not finished with it and sitting at about 205lbs and cutting up very nice, no sides except an excess anmount of pussy fallin in my lap. over all a total sucess. i dont think ill ever stop juicing now


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## bigbenj (Mar 27, 2012)

hahahahahahaha


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## bjg (Mar 27, 2012)

donkey you have 3 years of research i have more than 35 years of research (your parents did not yet meet)  and after 35 years of research i realized that AAS is not a good choice. So you shut the fuck up with all the other idiots who support you because the last thing you want to do is take advice from a juicer because if he knows anything he would not advise natural people to take juice. idiots like you still think and insist that steroids are safe at the dosage taken in a cycle, idiots like you ONLY look at articles who justify their stupidities and ignore real scientific evidence. 
And yes if bonesaw insists on doing gear a minimal dose would give him a small push.


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## bigbenj (Mar 27, 2012)

50mg a week is a fucking joking. You are clearly retarded. Women use 100mg a week to see some benefits, and you're suggesting half of that, for a MALE. STFU.


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## bigbenj (Mar 27, 2012)

Why don't you post up a pic, with a sign that says "IronMag", so we can be sure that you walk the walk, because you sure as hell try and talk the talk.


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## bjg (Mar 27, 2012)

bigbenj you stfu because i am 50+ and still get results better than you without any gear so yes 50-100mg or whatever minimal dosage.. is going to help. maybe it won't help you because your system is all messed up but for a clean person and smart lifter it will help.


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## bigbenj (Mar 27, 2012)

No pic= You don't work out.
Sure, 100mg will help someone who is old enough to be close to death(yourself), but recommending that for others is stupid, plain and simple.

How long will you claim you are still seeing results? You should be as big as Jay Cutler with all the claims you make about still seeing results, year after year.


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## jimm (Mar 27, 2012)

^^^dont even argue with the guy... 35 years of research and thats what he thinks is a good idea lmao ninja must be high!


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## bigbenj (Mar 27, 2012)

A LOT of natties are delusional. I honestly think natties are more delusional than guys on gear. They seem to have this "holier than thou" approach, and actually think they look better than most juicers. Sure, they look good on stage, contest ready ripped, but, they look like a normal gym rat the other 364 days of the year.


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## bigbenj (Mar 27, 2012)

Here is Merkaba. Mr. "I got up to 270 natty with a six pack" Mr. "I look better than 99% of juicers I know" THESE ARE HIS WORDS!!!!
Props to you for getting up on stage. You looked good, but, stage ready is one day out of the year. Here is what you look like the other 364 days. This is not that impressive:


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## XYZ (Mar 27, 2012)

bjg said:


> the best is to stay natural ...but if you insist on steroids then  your best strategy is to start lifting seriously for about a month , raise your level of training a bit before starting steroids. then use only things like test p or e or c or something like primobolan depot if you can find real ones.take a minimal dose for example: if a suggested cycle of primobolan (as an example ) is 200-400 mg a week for 12 weeks then take 100 mg a week only for 15 weeks, same goes for test just take a minimal dose so that you are supplementing or helping your system with testosterone instead of replacing it , the idea is to give a small boost without making your testosterone production be altered or shut down. Also your diet must be very rich in protein  and low sodium. if you do it like that then no need for pct or anything and when you stop steroids you will not go down fast, ...at least you will not notice it and you might keep some gains even if your gains were not big.
> remember unlike what some think: small gains and slow gains could be kept ....fast and big gains will be lost totally.




*ANY* type of AAS in the doses you suggest will cause shutdown, PERIOD.
This is really bad advice and I would strongly suggest doing a ton of reseach before giving out "advice" to anyone about AAS.  Thank you.


----------



## bjg (Mar 27, 2012)

THOSE PICS ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO ME BIG BENJ AND I LOOK 365 DAYS IN TOP SHAPE ALL THE TIME ALL YEAR LONG AND I WOULD NOT WANT TO BE LOOKING LIKE JAY CUTLER EVEN IF YOU PAY ME A MILLION BUCKS..
And tell me mr all knowing what professional bodybuilder, doctor or whatever gives advice to take steroids???????????? just show me one...all the idiots on heavy gear who have nothing else to do besides hiding their failure give such stupid advice.


----------



## bigbenj (Mar 27, 2012)

XYZ said:


> *ANY* type of AAS in the doses you suggest will cause shutdown, PERIOD.
> This is really bad advice and I would strongly suggest doing a ton of reseach before giving out "advice" to anyone about AAS. Thank you.



Great post dear XYZ. Honest post. Big true.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Mar 27, 2012)

XYZ said:


> *ANY* type of AAS in the doses you suggest will cause shutdown, PERIOD.
> This is really bad advice and I would strongly suggest doing a ton of reseach before giving out "advice" to anyone about AAS. Thank you.



he's been researching for 35 years bro


----------



## Standard Donkey (Mar 27, 2012)

its clear that bjg is a troll.


Please anyone who is looking into cycling, or aas in general.. do not take his advice.


----------



## bjg (Mar 27, 2012)

XYZ: 100mg of primo will not cause any testicular shut down if taken for few weeks. and so is 50mg of test. of course test will cause shut down eventually if taken for a long period, (depending on the dose and period taken). Primo is safer in that sense. and my advice is ultimately : NO STEROIDS as simple as that


----------



## XYZ (Mar 27, 2012)

bjg said:


> XYZ: 100mg of primo will not cause any testicular shut down if taken for few weeks. and so is 50mg of test. of course test will cause shut down eventually if taken for a long period, (depending on the dose and period taken). Primo is safer in that sense. and my advice is ultimately : NO STEROIDS as simple as that



Yes it will, and your advice applies to whom?

Please post your pubmed article which shows primo will not shut you down.  First, it's not even approved for use in the US and second, have you even used pub med for any of your reseach or are you going off of "bro science"?


----------



## bjg (Mar 27, 2012)

XYZ: google primobolan depot and u will see ton's of articles..some are legitimate scientific and some are just your normal advertising crap.
the medical articles explain in depth about the chemical composition of primobolan and its effects. and it is clear that it does not cause any testicular shut down. still i won't trust that if taken in higher doses. primobolan is the safest steroid (if  there is one ) without a doubt, and it is also proven to give excellent true results unlike other steroids that give you quick and massive results but mostly due to water retention. Primobolan gives true gains this why some say the gains are not good enough. because they are true gains with no water. No water retention, no cholesterol, no High blood pressure, no estrogen related side effects, and no need for pct...still i do not believe so if taken in higher dosage .


----------



## Standard Donkey (Mar 27, 2012)

holy shit will you shut the fuck up? you are so absolutely wrong it's mind boggling


----------



## colochine (Mar 27, 2012)

bigbenj said:


> Here is Merkaba. Mr. "I got up to 270 natty with a six pack" Mr. "I look better than 99% of juicers I know" THESE ARE HIS WORDS!!!!
> Props to you for getting up on stage. You looked good, but, stage ready is one day out of the year. Here is what you look like the other 364 days. This is not that impressive:



Meh give him some gears then maybe there will be something to see there...


----------



## ~RaZr~ (Mar 27, 2012)

Isn't it common knowledge that any exogenously administered hormone that is supplementing the bodies own production AND that is taken for a long enough period of time, will cause some sort shutdown? When I say shutdown, I don't mean your nuts either. 

Maybe we should ask someone who is on long-term use of corticosteroids


----------



## bjg (Mar 27, 2012)

Mr. Bigbenj: the only delusionals are juicers they think they just can cheat nature without a price to pay and they know deep inside that they are steroids dependent and that their muscles are all fake and that one day it will all fall apart. They only take steroids because no matter how big they get they will always feel small...in fact what they need is a shrink instead of roids


----------



## bigbenj (Mar 27, 2012)

I already know I have mental problems. Nice try though I still don't see your pic posted. Not sure you even workout.


----------



## ~RaZr~ (Mar 27, 2012)

bjg said:


> Mr. Bigbenj: the only delusionals are juicers they think they just can cheat nature without a price to pay and *they know deep inside that they are steroids dependent* and that their muscles are all fake and that one day it will all fall apart. *They only take steroids because no matter how big they get they will always feel small*...in fact what they need is a shrink instead of roids



Hmm correct me if I am wrong here, but what your trying to imply is that EVERY single user of either illegal or legal steroids (Don't be ignorant, they are called Prohormones!) will eventually become addicted and thus become dependent on the so-called "drugs" to maintain their muscles? I guess those "users" do not dedicate the SAME amount of time and intensity to DTS (diet, training and sleep)? 

You know the funny thing is, this steroid witch hunt would have NEVER had happened if the government HAD NOT decided to schedule them as a class III drug. Oh but wait, who controls the media? The Government! Who feeds propaganda and lies to the American public, the so-called soccer moms and bow-tie dads? The Government.

Funny, prescription drugs are horrendous for killing people as well, but Big Pharma is a multi-BILLION dollar business....


----------



## KelJu (Mar 27, 2012)

bjg said:


> juicers can never rebuild their muscles fast without the juice.
> Juice = dependency
> natural = true muscle
> 
> the only reason to go for AAS is  if you turn pro and make your living out of bodybuilding.



What the fuck does that mean? All muscle is real muscle, its just muscle. What else would it be, imaginary muscle? Virtual muscle? You are full of shit. I have taken long breaks after injuries and/or life events and could bounce back to where I was with no problems. I could even bounce back to almost post AS levels naturally. There are a lot of reasons to do AS other then being a body builder: health, mood, progress, sex drive, goals, ect. 

You sound like a whinny judgmental fuck. You remind me of one of those self righteous non-smokers who complain about why others choose to smoke. If you want to train naturally, then power to you. You'll save a lot of money that way. I am training naturally, because AS always leads me to injuries when I shoot past my body's natural limits. My connective tissues just can't handle the weight I can move. But your attitude is one of pure jealousy, otherwise you wouldn't care what others do. You go to a lot of trouble making the so called distinction of what "real muscle" is. 

Grow the fuck up you little bitch.


----------



## Thresh (Mar 28, 2012)

So all of you all natural guys don't use creatine, BCAAs, protein powder, supplements....

I don't recall seeing a creatine tree growing in my back yard. Then again, you might be supplementing something found in the body naturally....

reminds me of testosterone....


5"10
195lbs

Currently cycle:
Cruising on 250mg Test Cyp/week.


----------



## XYZ (Mar 28, 2012)

bjg said:


> XYZ: google primobolan depot and u will see ton's of articles..some are legitimate scientific and some are just your normal advertising crap.
> the medical articles explain in depth about the chemical composition of primobolan and its effects. and it is clear that it does not cause any testicular shut down. still i won't trust that if taken in higher doses. primobolan is the safest steroid (if  there is one ) without a doubt, and it is also proven to give excellent true results unlike other steroids that give you quick and massive results but mostly due to water retention. Primobolan gives true gains this why some say the gains are not good enough. because they are true gains with no water. No water retention, no cholesterol, no High blood pressure, no estrogen related side effects, and no need for pct...still i do not believe so if taken in higher dosage .



This = BRO SCIENCE.  Please post up studies or stop trying to convince me.  STUDIES OR GTFO.

If you're right you'll be shown your due.

I want to see a published study that shows primo does not have an impact on the HTPA, ANYTHING LESS and you're wrong.  You're rambling here.  The question is does it cause shutdown PERIOD.  I'll be waiting for you to prove me wrong.


----------



## sofargone561 (Mar 28, 2012)

bigbenj said:


> Here is Merkaba. Mr. "I got up to 270 natty with a six pack" Mr. "I look better than 99% of juicers I know" THESE ARE HIS WORDS!!!!
> Props to you for getting up on stage. You looked good, but, stage ready is one day out of the year. Here is what you look like the other 364 days. This is not that impressive:



kids at my high school where bgger then this


----------



## bigbenj (Mar 28, 2012)

Looks better than 99% of juicers^^^


----------



## _LG_ (Mar 28, 2012)

^^^ looks better than 99%  of natty's


----------



## bigbenj (Mar 28, 2012)

Lol


----------



## msumuscle (Mar 28, 2012)

sofargone561 said:


> kids at my high school where bgger then this



Gary Coleman on creatine


----------



## msumuscle (Mar 28, 2012)

Notice I didn't say AAS, because if that were so he'd look like dis


----------



## jimm (Mar 28, 2012)

what you talkin bowt willis!!!


----------



## Bonesaw (Mar 28, 2012)

I was wondering about people who take only one cycle every few years,  If i was to jump off in the deep end it would mostly likely be a one time event or I wouldn't be taking another cycle for months to years later.  From this standpoint (not a very discussed one) what do I have to consider differently?  Been lifting hard and eating hard from the beginning and i'm up ~40 lb in less that a year and a half.  So I much be doing something right.


----------



## Trenjunky (Mar 28, 2012)

Juicers will never grow back muscle without it? What do you know you've never done it, I know for a fact that we can, during my year and a half off I tried to get back into the gym from a bad injury and something always seemed to come up to prevent it. But in the one or two juice free weeks I would gain back 10lbs just from muscle memory alone. Muscle memory is the same for juicers and natty's alike. It does not prefer one or the other. Once you gain the muscle (upto your genetic potential) if you lose it it will come back. And in that year and a half it took over 1 year for me to lose 80% of my gains and that was with no working out at all and eating a lot less. In all your years of research you must've read that anything under 300mg a week of test is only gonna shut you down and not produce favorable results (not including someone on trt) and that is from the William Llewelyn anabolics 2009 guide. He knows his shit, you on the otherhand are not a scientific professional your a biased fool who has no business telling others to juice or not. And for the guy who asked about sides it's a personal thing, I myself don't require an ai ever, but I lose the hair on my head very easily and my body hair goes crazy. My friends nips get sore after 2 shots of test. You gotta experiment and find what works for you.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Mar 28, 2012)

Bonesaw said:


> I was wondering about people who take only one cycle every few years,  If i was to jump off in the deep end it would *mostly likely be a one time event or I wouldn't be taking another cycle for months to years later*.  From this standpoint (not a very discussed one) what do I have to consider differently?  Been lifting hard and eating hard from the beginning and i'm up ~40 lb in less that a year and a half.  So I much be doing something right.



that's what they all say


----------



## Tuco (Mar 28, 2012)

Standard Donkey said:


> that's what they all say



It's what they all say until they hear about Tren A...


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## bigbenj (Mar 28, 2012)

^amen


----------



## msumuscle (Mar 29, 2012)

^Can I get a Hallelujah?


----------



## XYZ (Mar 29, 2012)

BJG - WAITING FOR YOU TO POST STUDIES.  Thank you.


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## bigbenj (Mar 29, 2012)

XYZ said:


> BJG - WAITING FOR YOU TO POST STUDIES *and a pic of your amazing natty physique*.  Thank you.


Fixed. GICH.


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## ckcrown84 (Mar 29, 2012)

i got pics of me natural and looking pretty jacked.


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## Bonesaw (Mar 29, 2012)

financially and not have the time will in fact limit me.  see i can't get a straight answer


----------



## MassGaynez (Mar 29, 2012)

bigbenj said:


> Here is Merkaba. Mr. "I got up to 270 natty with a six pack" Mr. "I look better than 99% of juicers I know" THESE ARE HIS WORDS!!!!
> Props to you for getting up on stage. You looked good, but, stage ready is one day out of the year. Here is what you look like the other 364 days. This is not that impressive:



 Lmfao @ 270lb *"natural"*  with visible 6 pack.. This [...] serious?


----------



## ckcrown84 (Mar 29, 2012)

A lot in this thread has gotten real childish.
Come on guys, stop.


----------



## lee111s (Mar 30, 2012)

MassGaynez said:


> Lmfao @ 270lb *"natural"*  with visible 6 pack.. This [...] serious?


----------



## ~RaZr~ (Mar 30, 2012)

ckcrown84 said:


> A lot in this thread has gotten real childish.
> Come on guys, stop.



Welcome to IML! The place where hormones and opinions come together


----------



## XYZ (Mar 30, 2012)

BJG - STILL waiting for your studies.  I'll send you a PM to remind you.


----------



## hypo_glycemic (Mar 30, 2012)

XYZ said:


> BJG - STILL waiting for your studies.  I'll send you a PM to remind you.


^ Me too. Don't need to PM but please post in thread


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## bjg (Mar 30, 2012)

[h=1]Primobolan Side Effects[/h][h=2]THE DIFFERENT PRIMOBOLAN SIDE EFFECTS[/h]
*| *Best Place to Buy Primobolan* | *Buy Primobolan* | *How to take Primobolan* | *
*| *Primobolan Cycles* | *Primobolan Dosages* | *Primobolan for Sale* | *Primobolan - Q&A* |*
*| *Primobolan-Methenolone* | *Primobolan Profile* | *Primobolan Pictures* | **
**| *Primobolan Videos* | **Primobolan Side Effects |*
​

Primobolan is a well-known drug in the world of bodybuilding not only because it is excellent for cutting, it is also one of the rare androgen-based steroids that is mild enough to be used by women and beginners. Primobolan was first introduced by the company Schering. It is a dihydrotestosterone-derivative that does not interact with the aromatase enzyme. It had a double bond that inhibits it from binding with the androgen receptor. Primobolan has several structural alterations that are responsible for only minimal Primobolan side effects.

*Primobolan side effects* are mild amidst the steroid being a dihydrotestosterone derivative. Since*Primobolan* does not convert to estrogen even at high doses, you can expect that you will have a well-cut ripped body. On top of that, you won't have to worry about developing systemic diseases such as high blood pressure due to water retention or, for males, gynecomastia or the development of abnormal breast tissue.

The most common *Primobolan side effects* that occur are those caused by this steroid's androgenicity, which I should stress is rather weak compared to other anabolic androgenic steroids. Rarely, women experience one of these *Primobolan side effects through virilization*. Virilization is manifested as increase in body hair, changes in the voice, menstrual irregularities and clitoral hypertrophy. Some of these changes are permanent even if you had stopped using Primobolan. Fortunately, a dose of as high as 50 to 100 mg a week is sufficient enough for the steroid's action to take place and at the same time, limit virilizing Primobolan side effects in women. Other Primobolan side effects due to androgenicity occur in both men and women. This includes acne formation not only on the face but also, and more commonly, on the chest and the back. Acne can be treated by visiting your dermatologist or applying Accutane on the lesions. Some might also experience androgen-related hair loss. This *Primobolan side effect* is manifested by the M shape receding hairline in males and thinning of hair in females. There are many treatments out there that are used to address this*Primobolan* side effect effectively and these include application of Minoxidil and Ketoconazole. Primobolan side effects also include those without any particular treatments such as increase in aggressiveness, insomnia, and increase in sweating even when doing minimal activities. These Primobolan side effects often disappear when the steroid has been stopped.

*Primobolan is not a 17-alpha alkylated compound* unlike other anabolic steroids. It is a *1-methlated steroid* that is relatively mild on the liver. Long term use of this drug, however, can lead to Primobolan side effects of changes in liver enzyme values although these levels return to normal upon discontinuation of the steroid.

To recap, Primobolan side effects are rare and if present, these *Primobolan side effects* are mild even at high doses. You won't suffer from any life-threatening effects present in other steroids. It is the lack of Primobolan side effects that make it a very effective drug to combine with other anabolic androgenic steroids including the heavier, more dangerous ones.


----------



## bjg (Mar 30, 2012)

[h=2]rimobolan[/h][h=3](methenolone acetate)[/h]Primobolan is one of those anabolic steroids which has a cult following not unlike the old original version of Masteron. Actually, as you can easily see from its anabolic:androgenic ratio below in the profile, its a pretty weak steroid but actually stronger(!) than Masteron in both regards. I dont know anyone who has run both compounds at the same dose. We are probably justified in speculating that youd probably get similar results from either of them, when you consider the fact that you are getting quite a bit less actual drug and more ester when you choose injectable Primobolan (which has the very long Enanthate ester attached to it) over Masteron (which has the very short propionate ester attached to it). In truth, I think part of the reason many Primobolan users have been disappointed is that they failed to use enough of it, for long enough. From its chemical structure and anabolic:androgenic rating, we can assume it is at least as effective as Masteron, on an equal Mg for mg basis. However, due to its ester (in the injectable version), it needs to be run for at least 12 weeks to see the full benefits from it. When you consider a measly dose of 400mgs of this stuff for 12 weeks will probably cost you around $500.​


Its easy to see why many people have tried to use less...and have been disappointed with their results. On the other hand, many competitive bodybuilders consider Primobolan indespensible to their pre-contest drud routine, and wouldnt consider dieting without it. Anyway...I think the comparison to Masteron (another great precontest drug) is the best one we can make, with reference to expected gains and results.I happen to be one of the few people who have used Drostanolone Enanthate (Masteron with the Enanthate ester attached) as well as Methenolone Enanthate (injectable Primobolan). I can tell you that the results from these two compounds, when ester and mg potency are the same, are in fact very similar.​[h=3]Effects of Primobolan[/h]Lets flesh out some of the various general effects of Primobolan, before we get into the differences between the oral and injectable versions... One study performed on sheep involved administering 100mgs of Methenolone, and electronically stimulating their lats (electronic stimulation was used because they kept falling off the chin-up bars). Anyway, when compared with the lat muscles of sheep who didnt receive Methenolone, the receiving group gained significantly more muscle mass as well as strength (1)(2). Its also has a relatively high affinity for binding to the AR, actually binding better than testosterone (3). This ability to strongly bind to the AR may be why Primobolan is such a good "fat burner." Strong AR binding has been positively correlated with lypolysis (fat-burning) (8).In addition, as this steroid can actually aid in reducing breast tumors, no ancillary products need be considered for use with Primobolan, and in fact, it may actually be a useful ancillary agent in its own right, similar to Masteron. Also, just like Masteron, Primobolan has no propensity to aromatize (convert to estrogen). Since it doesnt aromatize, alot of the side effects commonly associated with estrogen will not be of concern. This means water retention, acne, and gyno will be non-existent more or less. this lack of water retention combined with the slow and steady gains provided by Primo may help to explain why it has earned a reputation for creating quality muscle gains. This also helps to explain why it is so expensive. Although estrogenic sides are not a concern, hair loss still, remains a very real concern with Primobolan, as with many DHT-Derived steroids. Many primobolan fans always include Finasteride and Ketoconazole (shampoo) in cycles containing Primobolan.Although nobody would ever suggest to use Primobolan as a bulking agent, its been studied as an agent to halt wasting and possibly reverse many of the adverse effects of anemia. It is a shocking failure in both areas, according to some of the case studies Ive read, (5)(6) and this should come to no surprise to anyone. Anadrol reigns supreme in this area, and nobody in the athletic community would ever compare those two drugs. However, Michael Mooney and many other respected doctors who work with AIDS patients have found sufficient evidence to claim that Primobolan is an immune enhancer and as such is very useful for AIDS patients (not that the FDA cares...Primobolan is still not approved for sale in the United States). AIDS patients arent really in need of Bulking Drugs, so an immune enhancer like Primo which will add small, quality gains in muscle is perfect for them. And since we arent even going to vaguely consider the use of Primobolan as a bulking agent, clearly this leaves us with considering it primarily for use in gaining and maintaining lean tissue. Its a great choice for this purpose, and many competitors have used it very successfully to retain muscle while on a calorie reduced diet. The reason Primo is so useful for this purpose is that one of its primary functions is to help your body retain nitrogen (7) at a greatly enhanced rate. The greater your nitrogen retention is, the more muscle you will build. In the case of using primo as a pre-contest drug, this nitrogen retention will help you retain muscle and ensure that your dieting preferentially favors fat loss over muscle loss.

Read more: Primobolan - Steroid .com​


----------



## ~RaZr~ (Mar 30, 2012)

Dude you posted "info" from steroid sites. Show us some RESEARCH data from reputable sources like Pubmed and Medline. 

You know, IMRAD format...


----------



## bjg (Mar 30, 2012)

~RaZr~ said:


> Dude you posted "info" from steroid sites. Show us some RESEARCH data from reputable sources like Pubmed and Medline.
> 
> You know, IMRAD format...


dude it is coming ....besides anytime i send medical research about the harm of steroids ..people in this forum jump on me it is very hard to find medical research (not a steroid sites type article) stating that steroids are good for you because the truth is : THEY ARE NOT as simple as that...however what seems the least harmful one with the least headaches is Primobolan.
true medical research about any steroids is going to tell you the truth : steroids will lead to health problems...and a lot of them are done and i posted them especially on tren. The positive thing about primo is that it is the least feared steroids and not many negative (true medical research) was written  baout it.
But again you will not find any reputable medical source that will say that steroids use for bodybuilding is without any risks. so if i was to use steroids (which i won't) i will use the least harmful and the lowest dose possible.


----------



## ~RaZr~ (Mar 30, 2012)

So then why is Anavar used in patients who are experiencing the "Wasting Away" part of AIDS. Why is EPO used in patients who have cancer or severe anemia. 


Seriously some juicers are smart in what they do. They analyze their diet, training and sleep to the T. After that, they decide to incorporate steroids AFTER they reach their limit. They get bloodwork and educate themselves on what lab values mean. 

If someone is natural, that means they do not take ANYTHING, not even creatine or protein powder. Why should they? If they are natural, the only thing they should be taking in is.....FOOD. 

So you keep looking for more ways to bash the "underground" culture. Funny, news reports have stated that your typical steroid user is educated, doesn't have a record, doesn't go out shooting people for their next vial and usually has a very good job. Oh wait wasn't the DEA and even other agencies against the classification of steroids?

/My part in this thread.


----------



## bjg (Mar 30, 2012)

~RaZr~ said:


> So then why is Anavar used in patients who are experiencing the "Wasting Away" part of AIDS. Why is EPO used in patients who have cancer or severe anemia.
> 
> 
> Seriously some juicers are smart in what they do. They analyze their diet, training and sleep to the T. After that, they decide to incorporate steroids AFTER they reach their limit. They get bloodwork and educate themselves on what lab values mean.
> ...



your argument does not stand....if some patients take steroids or any other medication it is not because it is ok to do it! it is because not taking it is life threatening and taking steroids or any medication is the lesser harm.
most people in the gym taking steroids are very unaware of the risks as many statistics shows and just by looking around you  in gyms ...in this forum...reading crap on google does not make you educated. 
creatine and protein is found in food and supplementing it a bit  is ok (too much is also harmful) however you don't find steroids in food which makes it UNNATURAL and extremely harmful.


----------



## ~RaZr~ (Mar 30, 2012)

Yea but do you get 5 grams of creatine from eating meat? 

You have still failed to show any true medical research about your "theory". 

Listen if you hate steroids that fucking much, more power to you. I hate cigarettes, but do I go on a campaign to smear them? No. If people want to use, so what?  

I think it's safe to say that we agree to disagree.....


----------



## bigbenj (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm tired of being big and strong...and I'm tired of all the sex with my wife. I think I'm going to be a natty from now on. Being this good looking and this jerked is a curse.


----------



## ckcrown84 (Mar 30, 2012)

I trained for 6 1/2 years 100% Natural... No Preworkout, no creatine, no protein shakes. just FOOD. Not gonna lie...it sucks. But, it gave me a hell of a base to build on.

I also did not know much about training back then, something I have greatly improved on.
Back then it was all 10 reps and shit ton of sets... all the time.


----------



## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 30, 2012)

2 months ago


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## ckcrown84 (Mar 30, 2012)

KOS,
yes that was 2 months ago?
What is your point?
As with any non-professional working out hasn't been fully progressive. I haven't been growing for 10 years lol. I have just made the decision to work towards bodybuilding comps recently.

Also, I have been bigger than I was in that pic that you just posted. For example I am much more lean and ripped in the pic that is my avatar...if you would like I can dig up a bigger version of it to satisfy you. 
I was at my smallest in a while when the above pic you posted.

To be honest I find it pretty immature that you troll me so much.

I have been training for around 10 years (2003-2012)
I trained for 6 1/2 years natural

Thanks bud!


----------



## ckcrown84 (Mar 30, 2012)

Sorry over the past 10 years of lifting I did not have the dedication  to perfect myself into the monster that you are.


----------



## ckcrown84 (Mar 30, 2012)

Posting 2 pics from last summer
where I am bigger than I was 2 months ago. for KOS


----------



## ckcrown84 (Mar 30, 2012)

Please Leave old Crownzy alone.

I just want to be in peace here bud. not argue like a child with people


----------



## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 30, 2012)

pic proves all you have ever done is bench and curls

typical short noob build


thickness doesnt impress because who couldnt fill out  5 ft 3 frame


----------



## ckcrown84 (Mar 30, 2012)

Wasn't going to bother dignifying you with a response but:
Please do us all a favor and post a pic of your body and show us what a non newb tall american bad ass like yourself looks like.

Final post. Deuces.



KILLEROFSAINTS said:


> pic proves all you have ever done is bench and curls
> 
> typical short noob build
> 
> ...


----------



## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 30, 2012)

At 5 ft 3 nothing you do will ever be impressive....unless you can dunk


----------



## bjg (Mar 31, 2012)

As ckcrown suggested earlier...only time and experience will teach you how to improve and how to train..each person is different and only years of experience will let you learn about your body and how it should be trained. 
killerofsaints don't push the 5'3 thing too far...i am barely 5'5 myself and besides the best physiques in the world mostly belong to rather small people.


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## bigbenj (Mar 31, 2012)

LOLZ Napoleon complex^


----------



## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 31, 2012)

arnold


or


franco.......there you go.......no one gave shit about dwarf bbers until the roided up synthol gut era



they made 202 devision for all the little fuckers


----------



## ckcrown84 (Mar 31, 2012)

bjg said:


> As ckcrown suggested earlier...only time and experience will teach you how to improve and how to train..each person is different and only years of experience will let you learn about your body and how it should be trained.
> killerofsaints don't push the 5'3 thing too far...i am barely 5'5 myself and besides the best physiques in the world mostly belong to rather small people.



I am like 5'4 - 5'5 somewhere in there
Oh and speaking of bodybuilders:
Bodybuilding.com - Lee Priest Pro Bodybuilding Profile.


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## KelJu (Mar 31, 2012)

People are jumping on you because you are making shit up. There has never been any legitimate research studying the long term effects of anabolic steroids. It doesn't exist. There are short term studies that report what we already know: increased blood pressure, liver toxicity, increased vigor/aggression, ect. However, every one of those side effects can be elevated, and most of the time, negated completely with supplements and a bit of common sense. The closest thing to a long term study deals with corti-steriods which isn't really the same thing.   

The taboo nature of anabolic steroids means that no one will be getting grants to study and gauge the long term safety of anabolic steroids for the purposes of enhancing ability. That, in and of itself, is fucking retarded. It is legal to prescribe testosterone for HRT. Someone should be data-mining all of the clinical history for all patients being prescribed HRT, and compiling it for statistical analyses. The data is already there. If HRT continues to be prescribed for another 4 or 5 years, we could then produce actual studies. Until then, this argument is fucking retarded. People claiming steroids are dangerous are full of shit. You don't fucking know.


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## Merkaba (Mar 31, 2012)

Merkaba said:


> ....
> 
> And hell now, I get so many fuckers asking and swearing I've taken something that it's more of a reason not to!  I'm getting ready to get a tank top made that says 100% Natural or some shit on it, with a logo I had done up just to silence the minds of those wondering. When i'm in the gym, all I talk about is eating, what I'm gonna eat when i get home...people think I'm joking when I tell them what I eat or how much, and that as far as I'm concerned it's 90% of the equation for someone who is experienced at lifting.  They think I'm joking, but meanwhile think I'm "using"...cause i can't be serious.  I'm like dude I've been lifting since 7th grade.  " I bet you workout everyday don't you.."  No...  ETC...shit gets old.  The meathead assumptions, etc.  I tell people look, with what I know(not that I know everything) but if I were on something, oh you wouldn't have to ask bro!  I don't come to the gym to sit on a ball or do abs.  *I'd be blowing some shit out in the rack injuring myself or a bystander I know it. * I would love to know how it feels, but hell I'd love to know how heroine feels too!



I just so happened to have come back to this thread and re-read what I wrote...in regards to the boldface...I was mid rep with a full stack on the seated rows and the cable broke/gave at the handle!  I flew off the seat, onto the floor bumping my noggin on the floor or the machine behind...it happened so fast I couldn't tell, upon flying backwards my legs came over and hit the seated calve raise which was all of four feet behind me.  I went to the hospital just to make sure I didn't have a concussion.  I have a bone bruise or fracture on my shin...didn't get it x rayed but it still hurts...from 9 days ago.  PUlled/strained some stuff in my back...but I'm alive.   There's no t-bar in my gym or any good alternative...don't know if I'll ever do them again!  Be careful...shit happens fast and before I could react I was on the floor...you can't fight the laws of physics!


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## bjg (Apr 1, 2012)

KelJu said:


> People are jumping on you because you are making shit up. There has never been any legitimate research studying the long term effects of anabolic steroids. It doesn't exist. There are short term studies that report what we already know: increased blood pressure, liver toxicity, increased vigor/aggression, ect. However, every one of those side effects can be elevated, and most of the time, negated completely with supplements and a bit of common sense. The closest thing to a long term study deals with corti-steriods which isn't really the same thing.
> 
> The taboo nature of anabolic steroids means that no one will be getting grants to study and gauge the long term safety of anabolic steroids for the purposes of enhancing ability. That, in and of itself, is fucking retarded. It is legal to prescribe testosterone for HRT. Someone should be data-mining all of the clinical history for all patients being prescribed HRT, and compiling it for statistical analyses. The data is already there. If HRT continues to be prescribed for another 4 or 5 years, we could then produce actual studies. Until then, this argument is fucking retarded. People claiming steroids are dangerous are full of shit. You don't fucking know.


i have stated this many times that there are very few long term effects studies of steroids on HUMANS because of the nature of the study...no one will do it as simple as that ...why????? because it could be dangerous...just by looking at short term effects is enough to makes you wonder about long term effects..and if there are no long term studies that show the negative side of steroids, there are no long term studies that negate the bad effects of steroids as well ...but  by just knowing what steroids are,  and some short term effects...long term effects tend to be rather bad...don't you think????? so exactly we don't know but cant we predict????? besides there are many long term effects studies on animals which show pretty nasty effects even chromosomal damage as i posted in many previous threads ...and these are medical research studies so you decide.............


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## HANDSOME STRANGER (Apr 1, 2012)

~RaZr~ said:


> Isn't it common knowledge that any exogenously administered hormone that is supplementing the bodies own production AND that is taken for a long enough period of time, will cause some sort shutdown? When I say shutdown, I don't mean your nuts either.
> 
> Maybe we should ask someone who is on long-term use of corticosteroids



I had to get spinal steroid injection because of a back problem and I can tell you for sure that shit shut me down. I am 31 I have always fucked like a rabbit. After the first shot about a week and a half latter I had ZERO SEX DRIVE MY NUTS SHRUNK .  I freaked the fuck out went back to the dr and asked him what the fuck they did to me. He said it was normal for it to shut me down. So I can attest to cortico shutting your natural test down.  


I thought this was an area for guys to talk about lifting and shit without the use of aas. But all I see is dumbfucks spewing bullshit about things they have no clue about.   If you want to claim being natural. How about some of you natural guys look up the definition of natural. It means no supplementation of anything other than natural products. So if you have ever taken oxy, creatine or anything of that nature I am sorry you are not natural. Actually you can't take anything other than food. So stop with your pompas Ass BS. If a guy wants to take gear who gives a fuck.  I think this is the worst damn section on this site...  Sorry for the rant but some people need to get real.  And roid rage is REAL. AND WEED IS WHAT MAKES BLACKS AND HISPANICS RAPE, PURE INOCENT WHITE WOMEN.


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## HANDSOME STRANGER (Apr 1, 2012)

Just so there is no misunder standing the roid rage and blacks and Hispanics who smoke weed and run around raping white pure women was a joke. My point was just like they used to say about weed how blacks and Mexicans who smoked it went crazy rapingn women. We now know it was bullshit propaganda for the government to tax it. Remember there was a tax card for growing and using weed. Same bs about aas. It is all propaganda. One day the truth will come out.  Shit most countries u can go down to the pharmacy and get what u want. But in america you can't even go get real meds to help u when your sick you have to pay some pos dr 300 bucks for a 20 min visit then 10-100 in co pay for you antibiotics..  Anyway my point is made.


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Apr 1, 2012)

ckcrown84 said:


> I am like 5'4 - 5'5 somewhere in there
> Oh and speaking of bodybuilders:
> Bodybuilding.com - Lee Priest Pro Bodybuilding Profile.



lee is the ONLY short man that could stand with the monsters


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## HANDSOME STRANGER (Apr 1, 2012)

bjg said:


> i have stated this many times that there are very few long term effects studies of steroids on HUMANS because of the nature of the study...no one will do it as simple as that ...why????? because it could be dangerous...just by looking at short term effects is enough to makes you wonder about long term effects..and if there are no long term studies that show the negative side of steroids, there are no long term studies that negate the bad effects of steroids as well ...but  by just knowing what steroids are,  and some short term effects...long term effects tend to be rather bad...don't you think????? so exactly we don't know but cant we predict????? besides there are many long term effects studies on animals which show pretty nasty effects even chromosomal damage as i posted in many previous threads ...and these are medical research studies so you decide.............



BJG ok I want to ask you a ?. When you post your stuff here do you think about what you say before you say it? Or do you just say shit to piss others off.  You say they won't do it because it is dangerous, let me ask you about all the other meds they want every person to run to there Dr and see if they have this or that condition. They give you every damn symptom you could ever think of having for every drug the display on tv. Am I the only one who has heard of the side effects from these drugs. If they know the side effects then they have done studies on them. Predicting is like shitting in one hand and wishing in the other and seeing which one fills up first. And your point about studies on animals is totally idiotic. Hey what are the long term effects of driving your car? What are the long term effects of not wearing uv protectant sunglasses. Bro everyone dies at some point in life but your arguments are weightless. And guess what I have never once done a cycle of aas. Or ph. Man do yourself a favor and do some real unbiased research.  You like to propagate yourself as this god who has to deal with us feeble little humans. Let's see some pics bro..  Seriously show us what you are working with.  Not trying to be a dick just voicing my opinion.


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## KelJu (Apr 1, 2012)

bjg said:


> i have stated this many times that there are very few long term effects studies of steroids on HUMANS because of the nature of the study...no one will do it as simple as that ...why????? because it could be dangerous...just by looking at short term effects is enough to makes you wonder about long term effects..and if there are no long term studies that show the negative side of steroids, there are no long term studies that negate the bad effects of steroids as well ...but  by just knowing what steroids are,  and some short term effects...long term effects tend to be rather bad...don't you think????? so exactly we don't know but cant we predict????? besides there are many long term effects studies on animals which show pretty nasty effects even chromosomal damage as i posted in many previous threads ...and these are medical research studies so you decide.............




For fucks sake. So, you say no one will study steroids because they are dangerous? What is the point of clinical trials if not to determine if a drug is dangerous? You can't say something is dangerous until you prove it. To say that no one will do the test because they already know the answer is a fucktard statement. Billions, that's right, with "B", billions of dollars are spent doing clinical trails and research on drugs that are dangerous. There are hundreds of drugs in your neighborhood pharmacy that are dangerous and will kill you. 

The lack of research has nothing to do with safety, and everything to do with politics and bias. Neither of the two belong anywhere in science.


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## NoCode8511 (Apr 1, 2012)

Rep points for anyone who neg's bjg!!!!


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## bjg (Apr 1, 2012)

no comments ..any comment is such a waste..
anyways i thought this is a natural bodybuilding thread right? if you want to praise steroids then go to the anabolic zone and unload your stupidities there


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## Diesel618 (Apr 1, 2012)

Reason for being natural:I'm broke. There is no other acceptable excuse.


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## bjg (Apr 1, 2012)

Diesel618 said:


> Reason for being natural:I'm broke. There is no other acceptable excuse.


 good you brought this up because not only some here praise steroids and never admit their danger...they even try to have a good price on them which makes them venture into the fake steroids territory which is now even more dangerous.....so in case one wants to go for steroids ..at least don't be cheap about it and check your sources well before getting all excited about a good deal on the price.


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## KelJu (Apr 1, 2012)

bjg said:


> good you brought this up because not only some here praise steroids and never admit their danger...




You don't get it. There is a huge difference between saying something can be dangerous, and saying something is dangerous. There is plenty of danger involved in putting chemicals in your body. Ephedrine has killed more people than steroids ever will, and you can still buy it in almost every gas station in America. Just look for Mini Thin. I don't see anybody in the "Natural" training section starting threads about the dangers of OTC stimulants and how anyone dieting who uses them aren't losing "real" fat.

Steroids can be dangerous if a person is lazy and ignorant. Most of the people on this board who choose to use steroids would say there is plenty of danger involved. They might be hesitant at first, because people have to walk a fine line and not give ammunition to morons who have bought into the hype and propaganda of the evils of steroids. That is why users research almost everything they can get their hands on. People spend a lot of time learning how to use them safely.  

This is a battle between rational thinking and idiocy. Shit birds come along like you who spread bad information. You could have started a thread about why you are proud of your achievements training naturally without directly insulting the people who have chosen to take their training to the next level. You make a lot of shit up, you lie, and you make assumptions based on nothing.


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## Diesel618 (Apr 1, 2012)

bjg said:


> good you brought this up because not only some here praise steroids and never admit their danger...they even try to have a good price on them which makes them venture into the fake steroids territory which is now even more dangerous.....so in case one wants to go for steroids ..at least don't be cheap about it and check your sources well before getting all excited about a good deal on the price.



I don't think anyone here is venturing into fake steroids. That is almost as much of a waste as being natural.


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## Qwai Chang (Apr 1, 2012)

You are so right about getting your size back after such a long lay off.  I lost interest in training and stopped going to the gym for 12 years until I got a letter about a job offer with the state and that I would have do a PFT course. I cursed myself for not being in shape to complete the PFT.  I'm ready for anything now and it only took me one month to reach 215 lb. from 175 lb.!
Natural is the way to go!


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## HANDSOME STRANGER (Apr 1, 2012)

bjg said:


> good you brought this up because not only some here praise steroids and never admit their danger...they even try to have a good price on them which makes them venture into the fake steroids territory which is now even more dangerous.....so in case one wants to go for steroids ..at least don't be cheap about it and check your sources well before getting all excited about a good deal on the price.



I challenge you to go over to the aas sections and read what is posted. In just about every thread where a new person comes on and asks about the use of aas you will find that damn near everyone says to do research because of the possible dangers that come along with being irresponsible while using aas. I think you are a troll who like to say ignorant things in order to get attention. I have read most of your post and just about everyone of them are worthless. Not that they are without Merritt but the fact that your facts are skewed. No one praises the use of aas. 

You are the type of person who will go to a 4x4 forum and say how dangerous it is to raise the ride height of ones vehicle and install larger tires, for the reason that it could inadvertently harm you for changing the factory settings on the veh.  I truly hope that the common sense of the people in this site do not listen to your rhetoric. 

I also assume you feel that weed is more dangerous than alcohol. I truly feel sorry that you were given such a low level of intelligence. Which you blatantly display in every single one of your posts.  

Yes everything has its limits.  And yes in the wrong hands aas can have sever consequences. But also in the right hand aas can be used responsibly and with great benefits. Back in the olds days I do not believe that they were pinning 1 gram of test amweek along with other compounds. In my opinion and I say again MY OPINION AAS SHOULD BE USED IN MODERATION IF USED. just like creatine, moderation, people have died from misuse of this substance as well. 

You my freind have fallen into the typical propaganda in which the media wants you to believe.


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## HANDSOME STRANGER (Apr 1, 2012)

I think we all need a picture of BJG to see what he says about his natty ability.  I would venture to say this guy never lifts. And if he didnhendid it for a few weeks then gave up because he could not handle the hard work.  I will guarantee that guys that use aas work  at least 10 times harder than most natty guys.


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## Qwai Chang (Apr 1, 2012)

I gave up being natural Jan 6, 2006 7PM with my first injection of SuperTest 450 and never looked back.


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## Qwai Chang (Apr 1, 2012)

Qwai Chang said:


> You are so right about getting your size back after such a long lay off.  I lost interest in training and stopped going to the gym for 12 years until I got a letter about a job offer with the state and that I would have do a PFT course. I cursed myself for not being in shape to complete the PFT.  I'm ready for anything now and it only took me 1 1/2 months to reach 215 lb. from 175 lb.!


Ignore the last line of my first post big time error!
Natural was THE WAY TO GO BACK THEN, NOT ANYMORE.  When I go to the now, I see the same guys and gals doing the same routines and haven't grown a 1/4 inch anywhere on their bodies and it's a Powerhouse Gym, which I've been a member for 25 years.  The gym is designed for bodybuilding, weight training, and power lifting.
I believe the gym was designed for that purpose only, but these fuckers treat it like its a Bally's!

I must put in that the job offer was in 1995 and I tried very hard to get into some physical condition, but the long layoff had taken its toll on my body.  Two guys at the gym sold steroids, but it didn't occur to me to get in contact with them because I had put the gym totally out of life. Bad decision Chang.


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## HANDSOME STRANGER (Apr 2, 2012)

bjg said:


> i never said use 50mg of test for whatever long ..i said for a short time....



OK BJG for your information. WHEN using AAS regardless of the amount that that one uses for regardless of the extent of time used. AAS will shut down your own production of testosterone.   Even if one wanted to run a maintenance dose of such said substance. One will have to use some type of PCT protocol in order to bring their natural test levels back. NOT THAT DOING SO IS A GUARANTEE.   BY day 2 of your first pin you would most likely be completely shut down.  Again I advise you to go over to the aas section of this board and do some research so that you do not misinform users of this site. Also 18 weeks is not a short time........... I think someone should ban you from this site to keep you from posting such utter useless information. Again as said before your advice is dangerous. 


THIS IS FROM YOUR POST ON PAGE 2 OF THIS THREAD.  
2- the steroid dosage you used is minimal in a way it will not cause any testosterone shut down of your system     HAHAHAHAHAHAH 
3- you keep the same level of workout after you stop steroids
for example instead of using for example a normal dosage of 200mg of test a week for 12 weeks, use 100 or even 50 mg a week for 18 weeks this will give you a push and will probably not cause any post cycle problems.  THIS IS WRONG. AND BAD ADVICE............
in short if you insist on using steroids let it be used to just give you a small push rather than rely on it.
Any regular cycle dosage like the one used by most juicers will only give you temporary short lived results and Post cycle side effects and problems to worry about. and no matter what you do you will loose all your gains if not more, pct or not. LOL HHAHAHAHA man you crack me up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## bjg (Apr 3, 2012)

cross 80, my advice is not to take steroids at all  ..............so go ahead do as many steroids as you please and we will see when you stop what happens to you ..........this subject is not to be debated anymore...........you can believe what you want and do all the steroids you want ...and when you are in deep shit just go to a doctor to save your ass.
Again for all other new lifters: the ONLY gains that will stay with you are natural gains ONLY and whoever say the opposite is either a liar or he means harm to you as simple as that.


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## HANDSOME STRANGER (Apr 3, 2012)

bjg said:


> cross 80, my advice is not to take steroids at all  ..............so go ahead do as many steroids as you please and we will see when you stop what happens to you ..........this subject is not to be debated anymore...........you can believe what you want and do all the steroids you want ...and when you are in deep shit just go to a doctor to save your ass.
> Again for all other new lifters: the ONLY gains that will stay with you are natural gains ONLY and whoever say the opposite is either a liar or he means harm to you as simple as that.




NO your advise as stated above and on page two of this thread is to follow some BS protocol...    I know your kind buddy......... YOU are that 50 plus year old man at the gym who walks around and makes women feel uncomfortable. You look at the equipment all lost and confused. You tell the younger guys what you COULD have lifted back in the days.  And your a skinny fat old man who looks in the mirror and says man only if I would not have been so lazy as a young adult, I might be still be pulling pussy today. Rather than cruising the streets at midnight looking for the cheapest tranny you can find.  Besides all that I have said about the truth about you.. You are a pacifist when it come to people calling you out on the BS you say...   Go suck start and tranny guy.. You and your words are BS...........


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## XYZ (Apr 3, 2012)

bjg said:


> *Primobolan Side Effects*
> 
> *THE DIFFERENT PRIMOBOLAN SIDE EFFECTS*
> 
> ...




This is not a medical study.

MEDICAL STUDIES ONLY PLEASE.


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## bjg (Apr 3, 2012)

cross80 you are full of shit grow up kid just grow up...


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## bjg (Apr 3, 2012)

XYZ i have posted medical studies in the anabolic zone about the harm of steroids and especially trenbolone causing chromosomal damage to user and offsprings..you can go to the anabolic zone and look it up...very easy


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 3, 2012)

bjg said:


> XYZ i have posted medical studies in the anabolic zone about the harm of steroids and especially trenbolone causing chromosomal damage to user and offsprings..you can go to the anabolic zone and look it up...very easy



why don't you just repost it for us simple-minded juicers?.. you could find it twice as fast since you know where you posted it, and in which thread.


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## KelJu (Apr 3, 2012)

bjg said:


> Again for all other new lifters: the ONLY gains that will stay with you are natural gains ONLY and whoever say the opposite is either a liar or he means harm to you as simple as that.



You are fucking full of shit. That is not true. It is completely situational. A lifter could reach their natural peak much faster on gear followed by proper PCT, and they will hold onto their gains. Anything beyond their natural peak will slowly be lost over time if training stays consistent. Steroids will allow a person to put on mass faster while at the same time reducing the amount of fat they put on. There are more benefits to doing steroids than just building muscle: increased protein synthesis, increased healing rate, increased fat mobilization, enhanced connective tissue repair. Different steroids serve different purposes.  Once a person reaches their goal for the amount of mass they wanted to add, then they can come off the gear and reduce their caloric intake to maintain. Will they maintain? Nobody knows until they try, because there are too many variables to consider to make a generalization. Depending on how far along they are, they may or may not digress. It depends on their genetics combined with their level of dedication towards diet and training.  

You keep making ignorant blanket statements.


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## NoCode8511 (Apr 3, 2012)

I just read this in one of your threads

"like saying cigarettes will not kill you...many smokers die from heart attacks and cancer ..but not from cigarettes!!!! smokers will tell you that no death was linked to cigarettes ..of course there is no illness called "cigarettes".

Are you that fucking dumb? Of course there is no illness called "cigarettes," but heart attacks and cancer are direct links from cig's. Do some research buddy, please.

Plus I want to see the so called "studies" about gear.


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## bjg (Apr 3, 2012)

KelJu said:


> You are fucking full of shit. That is not true. It is completely situational. A lifter could reach their natural peak much faster on gear followed by proper PCT, and they will hold onto their gains. Anything beyond their natural peak will slowly be lost over time if training stays consistent. Steroids will allow a person to put on mass faster while at the same time reducing the amount of fat they put on. There are more benefits to doing steroids than just building muscle: increased protein synthesis, increased healing rate, increased fat mobilization, enhanced connective tissue repair. Different steroids serve different purposes.  Once a person reaches their goal for the amount of mass they wanted to add, then they can come off the gear and reduce their caloric intake to maintain. Will they maintain? Nobody knows until they try, because there are too many variables to consider to make a generalization. Depending on how far along they are, they may or may not digress. It depends on their genetics combined with their level of dedication towards diet and training.
> 
> You keep making ignorant blanket statements.


you said it ..anything beyond natural will be lost ...as simple as that 
and by the way unlike what you say millions have tried to maintain the gains after gear...many methods have been used ...all fail
the only way is the natural way ONLY ...one day you will agree with me ....you will see


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## bjg (Apr 3, 2012)

*SIDE EFFECTS OF TREN STEROIDS*







Mar 8, 2011 | By Tomas Linnaeus









Photo Credit watch your weight image by Keith Frith from <a href='http://www.fotolia.com'>Fotolia.com</a>The slang phrase "tren steroids" refers to use of trenbolone, a performance-enhancing drug invented in 1963 says "Advances in Environmental Biology.” This veterinary medication increases muscle size and caloric appetite in animals. Readily available, athletes such as body builders and weight lifters use tren steroids to enhance their physique and improve their strength. These drugs alter the body's natural testosterone system which is responsible for development and growth. Trenbolone is considerably more potent than testosterone, but it can cause both short-term reactions and long-term effects.
*GENETIC DAMAGE*

A 2007 report described in the journal "Advances in Environmental Biology" tested the effects of tren steroids on human lymphocytes, or white blood cells. These cells, maintained in a petri dish culture, are rarely abnormal. Yet, the addition of trenbolone produced a dramatic increase in the number of abnormal cells. This increase represents a change in chromosomal structure. Most cells experiencing such a change die off. Yet surviving cells can cause genetic changes in the host and the offspring.



*PHYSICAL CHANGE*

A 2007 study by H. K. Hotchkiss presented in the periodical "Toxicology Letters" looked at the impact of trenbolone in female rats. Fetuses exposed to tren steroids prior to birth displayed delayed puberty and deformed genitals. Trenbolone causes similar physical changes in male rats. A 2002 report in "Toxicological Sciences" showed that tren steroids shrank the adrenal gland. This study also indicated that trenbolone was far more effective when administered through the skin than by the mouth. This finding may explain why body builders typically use tren steroids in home-made transdermal preparations, says “Toxicology Letters.”
*CHEMICAL CHANGE*

A 1999 experiment offered in the "Journal of Animal Science" assessed the lipid content of steer meat. Lipids include natural chemicals like fats, vitamins and sterols. Cholesterol is a lipid of particular interest due to its potential role in heart disease. Trenbolone pellets are often implanted into steers to increase their growth. Such implants, unfortunately, increase the cholesterol content present in steak. People may also absorb steroid additives directly from steak as well, says the "Journal of Animal Science.”
*BEHAVIORAL CHANGE*

Two reports described by the "International Programme on Chemical Safety" observed changes in behavior induced by tren steroids. Male and female rats were given active metabolites of trenbolone: 17-alpha-trenbolone or 17-beta-trenbolone. Males, but not females, exhibited drug-induced behavioral changes. These rats frequently salivated and consumed more food than controls.
*IMMUNE SUPPRESSION*

A 2007 investigation in the "Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health" evaluated the effects of tren steroids on the immune system. Male rats received either trenbolone, testosterone, or saline. A delayed-type hypersensitivity test measured immune function. For this test, a potential allergen is placed under the skin, and the appearance of a rash within 72 hours indicates a positive reaction. A positive reaction indicates normal immunity. Rats given tren steroids showed less rash relative to those given either testosterone or saline.
MIND Lebanon & MiddleEast Psychiatry & Psychology Clinics Children, Adult, Geriatric Services www.mindclinics.org
Ask a Dr: Side Effects A Doctor Will Answer You Now! Questions Answered Every 9 Seconds. Health.JustAnswer.com/Side-Effects
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OxyELITE Pro By Usp Labs Melt Your Fat And Get Ripped In Day Oxyelite The Lowest Price Guarantee www.chosenvitamins.com/OxyELITE-PRO
Sponsored Links




*REFERENCES*



"Advances in Environmental Biology": Chromosomal Damage Induced by Androgenic Anabolic Steroids
"Toxicology Letters"; In Utero Exposure to the Environmental Androgen Trenbolone Masculinizes Female Sprague-Dawley Rats; H. K. Hotchkiss et al.; Nov. 1, 2007
"Journal of Animal Science"; Effect of Anabolic Implants on Beef Intramuscular Lipid Content; S. K. Duckett et al.; May 1999
"International Programme on Chemical Safety": Detailed Studies on Trenbolone Acetate
"Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Part A"; An Environmental Androgen, 17beta-trenbolone, Affects Delayed-Type Hypersensitivity and Reproductive Tissues in Male Mice; H. K. Hotchkiss et al.; Jan. 15, 2007
Article reviewed by Rachel Mattison     Last updated on: Mar 8, 2011




Read more: Side Effects Of Tren Steroids | LIVESTRONG.COM​


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## HANDSOME STRANGER (Apr 3, 2012)

bjg said:


> *SIDE EFFECTS OF TREN STEROIDS*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




well thank good to cattle farmers. They have given us women with bigger titties and fatter asses !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!     

I would like to ask a question to the vets on here pertaining to ( BLOWING JACKED GUYS ) AKA bjg post.

HOW, can you take anything from what he has posted???? For all anyone knows, what was the amount of substances they gave the white blood cells?? Without the details to this STUDY how can one come to a conclusion, it would have any adverse side effects. Maybe it is just because I am a dumb fuck and all. But without all the info this post he has made means jack shit to me.............

One of my guys is on tren, maybe his shit is bunk because i don't see him drooling all over the place!!!!!


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## HANDSOME STRANGER (Apr 3, 2012)

BJG aka blowing jaked guys... WILL YOU PLEASE POST UP A RESENT PICTURE OF YOURSELF????????????  For all the information that you say is true you have to be the biggest, jacked, yoked mother fucker on this site.   I have never neeged anyone on this site before but I can only wonder how the hell you stay in the green.................


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## Standard Donkey (Apr 3, 2012)

bjg said:


> *SIDE EFFECTS OF TREN STEROIDS*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



so you expose a fetus to trenbolone and it gets a little fucked up? _Really? _No shit lol.. you expose a fetus to anything and itll get fucked up.. E.G. alcohol, tabacco..accutane etc..

this is hardly ground-breaking stuff..


----------



## Thresh (Apr 4, 2012)

I thought the thread title was "reason for being natural"? So far off topic at this point it deserves to be locked. 


5"10
195lbs

Currently cycle:
Cruising on 250mg Test Cyp/week.


----------



## XYZ (Apr 4, 2012)

bjg said:


> XYZ i have posted medical studies in the anabolic zone about the harm of steroids and especially trenbolone causing chromosomal damage to user and offsprings..you can go to the anabolic zone and look it up...very easy




You're wrong.

There is no medical studies done with tren on humans, because it's not made for humans.

You also missed the point that YOU said primo will not cause shutdown at 100mg EW.  This is the study I want you to post and if you don't you'll just be another liar who doesn't know what he's talking about.

You're really out of line in a lot of your posts, if you don't like or support AAS, fine.  Nobody should bash you, but when you come in here and start shooting your mouth off with no medical studies to back your mouth up, you need to shut your mouth PERIOD.


----------



## XYZ (Apr 4, 2012)

bjg said:


> *side effects of tren steroids*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*this is not a medical study done on humans, because tren isn't for human use and their are no studies.
*


----------



## sofargone561 (Apr 4, 2012)

cross80 said:


> BJG aka blowing jaked guys... WILL YOU PLEASE POST UP A RESENT PICTURE OF YOURSELF???????????? For all the information that you say is true you have to be the biggest, jacked, yoked mother fucker on this site. I have never neeged anyone on this site before but I can only wonder how the hell you stay in the green.................



this guy is a stuid fuck, i used to neg him everyday, idk ho he got back green or why he is still on this site. hes such a worthless life
P.S. bjg i will now neg u everytime i see ur name just like i used to


----------



## Curt James (Apr 4, 2012)

ckcrown84 said:


> A lot in this thread has gotten real childish.
> Come on guys, stop.



This.


----------



## Curt James (Apr 4, 2012)

KILLEROFSAINTS said:


> 2 months ago



For comparison...






KOS, when was _that _pic taken?


----------



## Curt James (Apr 4, 2012)

cross80 said:


> If a guy wants to take gear who gives a fuck.



This. It's a personal choice or decision. Keep your opinions on a respectful level, gentlemen.



cross80 said:


> *I think this is the worst damn section on this site... *Sorry for the rant but some people need to get real.



Some of "the worst damn" behavior or examples of disrespect and childishness perhaps. I don't get it. 

I don't give a **** if you're 5'2 or 7'2, if you can bench 100 or 900 lbs. This is the Natural subforum placed here at the generosity of Prince and for the purpose -- I thought, anyway -- for people to share their information/questions/discussion about Natural Bodybuilding or weight training/power lifting.

This subforum was _not _created, imo, to slam members or disrespect other members.


----------



## HANDSOME STRANGER (Apr 4, 2012)

Curt James said:


> This. It's a personal choice or decision. Keep your opinions on a respectful level, gentlemen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




OK curt I get your point sure....... But as a super mod as you are how can you allow someone who is completely delusional in his posts and continue to post the fucking BS that he does.  So I just want to get this straight if you don't mind. If say one said person comes on here and blatantly spews BS that his community should just say bad boy now stop your silliness and move one???????


And sorry I did not realize that this forum was so PC being as the nature of the topics that are discussed. I will respectfully refrain from using harsh language. SO as that I do not offend anyone feelings.

And yes this is the worst thread on this forum. If you would take the time to read everyone of his threads or post you will see that he is in fact full of CRAP.  This guy has no clue.


AND JUST SO EVERYONE KNOWS i HAVE NEVER DONE A CYCLE OF AAS. I DO NOT PROMOTE NOR DO I DENOUNCE THE USE OF SUCH A PRODUCT.   

Childish as it maybe in your opinion but this guy is more dangerous to some than others with his idiotic opinions and advice. For someone ( BJG ) who claims to be some type of med professor he can barley structure a sentence. Or do anything else for that matter........  


But thank you for pointing me out as you said you are correct this is a NATURAL SUB FORUM. Not a forum to spew utter nonsense about the use of aas. So maybe his threads should be moved to a more appropriate forum....   Just my 2 cents


----------



## Standard Donkey (Apr 4, 2012)

in _my defense_ (though no one was attacking me), the only reason i became involved in this thread/forum, was because of the hideous misinformation being spread by bgj.


He was telling guys to cycle by using 50mg of test a week...and they were considering it, i could not remain complacent. Im withdrawing from this forum forever, simply too much arrogance coupled with ignorance here.


----------



## Curt James (Apr 4, 2012)

Thresh said:


> *I thought the thread title was "reason for being natural"?* So far off topic at this point it deserves to be locked.



This.

If you're looking for some of your posts to continue the bickering then you may want to look here: 

*http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/a...ist-no-youre-racist-no-yoooooooou-thread.html*


----------



## Curt James (Apr 4, 2012)

cross80 said:


> OK curt I get your point sure.......



Fwiw, my comments were directed towards anyone who felt the need to belittle someone for an opinion.

The thread is titled "*Reason for being "natural"?*" I'm not quite sure how it became the "you're racist" thread and a platform to defend the use of AAS.

You don't appreciate the guy then put him on ignore, please. One option.

Just as no one posting "DO STEROOOOIDS!" is going to suddenly have me shooting up, this guy's posts screaming "TEST WILL KILL U!!!!" do not have any impact on my decision making. Most intelligent people will look for multiple sources of information before reaching a conclusion or choosing a course of action.

Don't you agree?


----------



## sofargone561 (Apr 4, 2012)

Curt James said:


> Don't you agree?


lol there is always one sensible guy who has to calm in all come and say educated shit that makes sense and ruin a perfectly entertaining shit storm lol but yes i agree


----------



## Curt James (Apr 4, 2012)

sofargone561 said:


> lol there is always one sensible guy who has to calm in all come and say educated shit that makes sense and ruin *a perfectly entertaining shit storm* lol but yes i agree



*The storm continues!*


----------



## sofargone561 (Apr 4, 2012)

Curt James said:


> *The storm continues!*


 LOL no im done now


----------



## HANDSOME STRANGER (Apr 4, 2012)

Curt James said:


> Fwiw, my comments were directed towards anyone who felt the need to belittle someone for an opinion.
> 
> The thread is titled "*Reason for being "natural"?*" I'm not quite sure how it became the "you're racist" thread and a platform to defend the use of AAS.
> 
> ...




Yes I completely agree which this guy has not.......................   He is simply stating his opinion which has no factual basis.. This guys whole basis is he is over 50 and is better off than anyone who has ever taken steroids then continually post completely idiotic posts about things that are in fact untrue.  Anyone with simple paragraph comprehension can see he back pedals in his own statement's .  I am not defending the use of aas and I don't think that is anyone's point, that has posted in this thread. Excuse me for speaking for the rest of you but I believe their points are that if he is going to post things then he needs to at least back up his statements with TRUE substantiated work. This guy has been neeeged from the start of him joining this site if that does not say anything then I don't know what else to say. AND I AM A NEEWB AND THERE ARE PLENTY OF GUYS WITH PLENTY OF EXPERIENCE WHO ARE TELLING THIS GUY TO GET A CLUE AND STOP WITH HIS PROPAGATED BS.  

I realize this guy has an agenda but if he wants to come on here and EDUCATE PEOPLE. HE NEEDS TO SUPPORT HIS ARGUMENTS. HIM BEING A PROFESSOR OF WHAT EVER HE CLAIMS TO BE ONE WHO ASSUME HE WOULD KNOW THIS ALREADY.'

And I am done with this thread as well... GOOD LUCK BJG........


----------



## Curt James (Apr 4, 2012)

^^^^ *cross80*, do you have _anything _to contribute to this thread which applies to the following question?



PITBULL915 said:


> For those who are natural, what's your reason to choose being natural?
> Legality?
> Price?
> Availability?
> Morals?


----------



## Curt James (Apr 4, 2012)

PITBULL915 said:


> For those who are natural, what's your reason to choose being natural?
> Legality?
> Price?
> Availability?
> Morals?



I've used IronMagLabs 1-Andro Rx, Super-DMZ Rx, and Cyanostane Rx. Legality is a concern, obviously, and therefore I'm grateful for IronMagLabs products.

Knowledge is another factor. I simply do not know (nor have the time or interest to educate myself) enough about pinning, the various compounds, etc.

Price _could _be a factor, though I've heard that a simple test cycle is not especially cost prohibitive. Being nearly 50 my insurance might even cover part or all of TRT/HRT.


----------



## HANDSOME STRANGER (Apr 4, 2012)

Curt James said:


> ^^^^ *cross80*, do you have _anything _to contribute to this thread which applies to the following question?




Sure last post in this thread..........

legality???? Seriously everyone does things that are illegal. Speeding, so on and so on. So no legality is not a concern. CONSEQUENCES OF BEING CAUGHT SURE. No one wants to get busted.

Price??       Everyone wastes money on BS everyday so this is some what of a mute ?   If one wanted to acquire the funds to endeavor into such a life style they will..

Availability????  Sure one wants to know who they get it from is going to give them what they have purchased. 

Moral?  This is a tricky ?   Because morals are based on a societal view. Not a personal view.  But then again people pick and choose which morals they feel are correct. 


But for me I have never used anything PH or AAS. I have used creatine, bcaa's and regular shit. My biggest thing is time due to my job, if I am going to do such said products. I need time. And I don't have that right now when I go to the field or I deploy I cannot guarantee proper diet or training.   But now that has all changed... I do not condone people using anything. That is a personal choice not one that I should say do or not to do.  But my biggest thing is being properly educated. If one wishes to use or even provide information on it do so in the correct way. BEING unbiased.   Hope that answers your questions curt.


----------



## bjg (Apr 4, 2012)

cross80 said:


> OK curt I get your point sure....... But as a super mod as you are how can you allow someone who is completely delusional in his posts and continue to post the fucking BS that he does.  So I just want to get this straight if you don't mind. If say one said person comes on here and blatantly spews BS that his community should just say bad boy now stop your silliness and move one???????
> 
> 
> And sorry I did not realize that this forum was so PC being as the nature of the topics that are discussed. I will respectfully refrain from using harsh language. SO as that I do not offend anyone feelings.
> ...


 1-since you do not use AAS ..i cannot understand then why you are replying to me in such manner??? Answer: you don't really care about discussing bodybuilding you are just here to insult people.
2- when i was lifting you were not born yet 
3- I write English better than anyone on this forum trust me ...if i write fast here it is because i have no time to correct myself + i speak and write fluently 4 languages and i have a PhD from Texas A&M university  so i don't think you even come close to being qualified for judging me not you and not all of your friends. 
4- If you have something relevant to the subject of natural bodybuilding it would be more constructive rather that wasting all your talents and  killing yourself to insult others , aiming to be interesting and funny ...because you are not


----------



## MuscleGauge1 (Apr 4, 2012)

There are plenty of reasons for being natural. The biggest one I can think of is pure health. You can't be healthy down the road by taking a bunch of stuff. I know a friend that did some cycles and then got off. He went to the doc and his blood work was CRAZY. He is taking a bunch of stuff just to get normal again. The stuff is dangerous and honestly it's not for everyone...


----------



## Qwai Chang (Apr 4, 2012)

cross80 said:


> NO your advise as stated above and on page two of this thread is to follow some BS protocol...    I know your kind buddy......... YOU are that 50 plus year old man at the gym who walks around and makes women feel uncomfortable. You look at the equipment all lost and confused. You tell the younger guys what you COULD have lifted back in the days.  And your a skinny fat old man who looks in the mirror and says man only if I would not have been so lazy as a young adult, I might be still be pulling pussy today. Rather than cruising the streets at midnight looking for the cheapest tranny you can find.  Besides all that I have said about the truth about you.. You are a pacifist when it come to people calling you out on the BS you say...   Go suck start and tranny guy.. You and your words are BS...........



Damn, you almost described me! lol


----------



## Qwai Chang (Apr 4, 2012)

I would like to see anyone the has the slightest interest in bodybuilding to refrain from taking steroids.  I was a skinny at 155lb. 6'0" at 14 yr.old when i began weight-training, but I lost my interest even though I manage to gain ten pounds.  several years, later I got somewhat serious about it and my weight shot up to 215lb.  I took a long layoff and my weight went down to 170lb.  The strange thing about being natural, you never actually lose your gains. I weight  212lb at the present time.  i can go in the gym, exercise for about two months and weigh 240lb+. natural and I'm 56 fucking years old!  Good gene pool!


----------



## bjg (Apr 5, 2012)

MuscleGauge1 said:


> There are plenty of reasons for being natural. The biggest one I can think of is pure health. You can't be healthy down the road by taking a bunch of stuff. I know a friend that did some cycles and then got off. He went to the doc and his blood work was CRAZY. He is taking a bunch of stuff just to get normal again. The stuff is dangerous and honestly it's not for everyone...


 he started with crazy blood work i want you to see him few years down the road.....
You are right pure health is the main reason .
the natural way you build muscles that will stay with you even if you get older , in fact the older you get the more experienced you will be and the better results believe me. with steroids you will have to face worries, health problems, ups and downs that come with stress and psychological problems...in short worries that you don't need to incorporate in your life ..and in the end deception


----------



## XYZ (Apr 5, 2012)

Waiting for you to post the syudy Bro.


----------



## ~RaZr~ (Apr 5, 2012)

XYZ said:


> Waiting for you to post the syudy Bro.


----------



## bjg (Apr 5, 2012)

when you build muscle naturally with years ..all your internal organs will develop slowly with your muscles in a way that all your system is in harmony..all your organs will develop in a way to sustain the muscles, you will be in a state of stable equilibrium (engineering speaking) . However when using steroids  you build up muscles fast and some organs do not develop accordingly..there will be an imbalance in the way you are built ...like being in an unstable equilibrium....thus as you stop steroids, this equilibrium will fall apart.
This...not counting the numerous health risks which could reach a lethal or irreversible stage.
And XYZ if you don't believe me why don't you use AAS yourself ? what are your reasons of being natural?


----------



## Thresh (Apr 5, 2012)

bjg said:


> when you build muscle naturally with years ..all your internal organs will develop slowly with your muscles in a way that all your system is in harmony..all your organs will develop in a way to sustain the muscles, you will be in a state of stable equilibrium (engineering speaking) . However when using steroids  you build up muscles fast and some organs do not develop accordingly..there will be an imbalance in the way you are built ...like being in an unstable equilibrium....thus as you stop steroids, this equilibrium will fall apart.
> This...not counting the numerous health risks which could reach a lethal or irreversible stage.
> And XYZ if you don't believe me why don't you use AAS yourself ? what are your reasons of being natural?



A link between organ development and muscle mass. Can't wait to see the pile of evidence you have for this




5"10
195lbs

Currently cycle:
Cruising on 250mg Test Cyp/week.


----------



## XYZ (Apr 5, 2012)

bjg said:


> when you build muscle naturally with years ..all your internal organs will develop slowly with your muscles in a way that all your system is in harmony..all your organs will develop in a way to sustain the muscles, you will be in a state of stable equilibrium (engineering speaking) . However when using steroids  you build up muscles fast and some organs do not develop accordingly..there will be an imbalance in the way you are built ...like being in an unstable equilibrium....thus as you stop steroids, this equilibrium will fall apart.
> This...not counting the numerous health risks which could reach a lethal or irreversible stage.
> And XYZ if you don't believe me why don't you use AAS yourself ? what are your reasons of being natural?



I never stated I was natural, you assumed.

YOU said that primo will not shut you down at 100mg EW, I said yes it will, you again said no it won't so I AGAIN asked you to post up a medical study proving that your answer was correct, you have failed to do so.

Bottom line:  You're wrong.  You've had a chance to prove it for days now so don't tell me you were busy or some other line of BS.  The reason you didn't find it is because it doesn't exist.

If HRT shuts you down is that dangerous too?  It's a prescribed Rx from a Dr. and is monitored by blood work.  Funny, I bet if you had the same condition you would go on HRT also.  

Your overall AAS knowledge is limited to fiction and rumors you read off of descriptions instead of actual medical information.


----------



## bjg (Apr 5, 2012)

XYZ i am not your office boy or secretary to look for studies for you..you  can do so yourself...as for me i don't need any study to know what is the truth ....i ve been around ..as for primo i said that it is advertised by steroids sites that it does not shut you down and it is well known from experienced bodybuilders..however, i also said that i still don't believe it if taken at high doses if you recall ...so if you have a fixation on contradicting me ..it is getting boring..
you will not find a single medical study that will say that steroids are good for you....however juicers do not want to admit it so instead they go claiming that there are no studies that say it is bad or it can kill you....so in general people will believe what they want....but if you want  you can go ask your doctor endocrinologist and he will tell you what he studied throughout his 10 years ...and you probably you won't like the answer if you were a juicer.
As far as my knowledge about AAS ..i am proud to say that yes it is limited if you think knowledge in AAS is the kind gathered by some punks in the gym...and  for sure i really don't care about AAS that much since i know what it does.....if i want to know about AAS i just go to experts the kind who write articles and do research ..i am surrounded by them at the university.
As far as being in red or green or whatever i really don't care ..i made my millions...


----------



## HANDSOME STRANGER (Apr 5, 2012)

bjg said:


> XYZ i am not your office boy or secretary to look for studies for you..you  can do so yourself...as for me i don't need any study to know what is the truth ....i ve been around ..as for primo i said that it is advertised by steroids sites that it does not shut you down and it is well known from experienced bodybuilders..however, i also said that i still don't believe it if taken at high doses if you recall ...so if you have a fixation on contradicting me ..it is getting boring..
> you will not find a single medical study that will say that steroids are good for you....however juicers do not want to admit it so instead they go claiming that there are no studies that say it is bad or it can kill you....so in general people will believe what they want....but if you want  you can go ask your doctor endocrinologist and he will tell you what he studied throughout his 10 years ...and you probably you won't like the answer if you were a juicer.
> As far as my knowledge about AAS ..i am proud to say that yes it is limited if you think knowledge in AAS is the kind gathered by some punks in the gym...and  for sure i really don't care about AAS that much since i know what it does.....if i want to know about AAS i just go to experts the kind who write articles and do research ..i am surrounded by them at the university.
> As far as being in red or green or whatever i really don't care ..i made my millions...





   


Now he is telling us he is a millionaire..    Sorry I know I said I would stay off this thread but I can't help it...  I just want to sum everything up...........   He is a master of the martial arts, who holds a PH D, who writes papers on bio mechanical engineering who has been on national geographic , who's son will kick everyone's ass on this site. Who is 50+ and in better shape then any JUICER, who claims to know everything from someone who made steroids and sold them to people who died from using steroids. Lets see I don't know what else BULLSHIT I HAVE MISSED. oh he is a millionaire.  If I have failed to mention anything else I apologize I cannot keep up with all his silliness...  Oh and his daughter gets railed out by someone on this board.. Hope I got it all... And I swear this will be the last time I post I promise. At least on this thread....


----------



## Thresh (Apr 5, 2012)

5"10
195lbs

Currently cycle:
Cruising on 250mg Test Cyp/week.


----------



## bjg (Apr 5, 2012)

cross80 so far all you have proven is that you are just a lowlife punk...while i am very happy enjoying my life you are just an angry sorry ass who gets off by insulting people out of pure jealousy...


----------



## Curt James (Apr 5, 2012)

Memo

To: This thread
From: loyal reader

Subj: _This thread_

1.


----------



## Diesel618 (Apr 5, 2012)

bjg said:


> as for me i don't need any study to know what is the truth...



strong argument.


----------



## XYZ (Apr 6, 2012)

bjg said:


> XYZ i am not your office boy or secretary to look for studies for you..you  can do so yourself...as for me i don't need any study to know what is the truth ....i ve been around ..as for primo i said that it is advertised by steroids sites that it does not shut you down and it is well known from experienced bodybuilders..however, i also said that i still don't believe it if taken at high doses if you recall ...so if you have a fixation on contradicting me ..it is getting boring..
> you will not find a single medical study that will say that steroids are good for you....however juicers do not want to admit it so instead they go claiming that there are no studies that say it is bad or it can kill you....so in general people will believe what they want....but if you want  you can go ask your doctor endocrinologist and he will tell you what he studied throughout his 10 years ...and you probably you won't like the answer if you were a juicer.
> As far as my knowledge about AAS ..i am proud to say that yes it is limited if you think knowledge in AAS is the kind gathered by some punks in the gym...and  for sure i really don't care about AAS that much since i know what it does.....if i want to know about AAS i just go to experts the kind who write articles and do research ..i am surrounded by them at the university.
> As far as being in red or green or whatever i really don't care ..i made my millions...




LOL, ok Bro, whatever you say.


----------



## charley (Apr 6, 2012)

bjg said:


> XYZ i am not your office boy or secretary to look for studies for you..you  can do so yourself...as for me i don't need any study to know what is the truth ....i ve been around .....



.....Yo bro..that's what people do here, they gather information[studies e.g.] copy&paste for all to enjoy and learn.Talking snotty aint gonna express nothing that we don't already know, and that's that your a snot head.


----------



## Curt James (Apr 7, 2012)

charley said:


> .....Yo bro..that's what people do here, they gather information[studies e.g.] copy&paste for all to enjoy and learn.Talking snotty aint gonna express nothing that we don't already know, and that's that* your a snot head.*



 Never infracted anyone for calling someone a "snot head".

And, Qwai Chang, the thread includes many positive on-topic posts so save your requests, please.


----------



## Qwai Chang (Apr 7, 2012)

Curt James said:


> Never infracted anyone for calling someone a "snot head".
> 
> And, Qwai Chang, the thread includes many positive on-topic posts so save your requests, please.



Thank You for your concern.  Now I'm going to take an injection of Supertest 450, Test E 250, and Deca 250.  A very nice bi-weekly cocktail.


----------



## desmorris (Apr 8, 2012)

well nice informative thread. well motivation and availability matters for me alot.


----------



## bjg (Apr 17, 2012)

just saw something funny that could be addressed for all those claiming " you keep your gains after steroids"...just go visit the Anabolic section with the thread: "what do you you do off cycle" (something like that) 
well i was surprised to see that OFF Cycle for almost all the juicers there  does not mean stopping steroids ,,,it just means taking a bit less than usual 
so funny ...because the same kind of people will argue to death about all the gains they kept after steroids....you know what i mean?


----------



## NoCode8511 (Apr 17, 2012)

bjg said:


> just saw something funny that could be addressed for all those claiming " you keep your gains after steroids"...just go visit the Anabolic section with the thread: "what do you you do off cycle" (something like that)
> well i was surprised to see that OFF Cycle for almost all the juicers there  does not mean stopping steroids ,,,it just means taking a bit less than usual
> so funny ...because the same kind of people will argue to death about all the gains they kept after steroids....you know what i mean?



We could argue all day and night about this subject. I have read most of the studies that you pm'd me since I did ask for them. Some made sense, and that is why I stay away from certain compounds. But to say that we loose all our gains, I have to disagree with that. I have ran 3 injectable cycles and three ph's, and I have only lost a few lbs after the cycle (water weight.) And that was after I ran a proper PCT. I even had a few months off from lifting due to injuries and kept all my size.

Edit: I think its time we give this thread a rest.


----------



## bjg (Apr 19, 2012)

yes we could put it at rest but one thing i wanted to add...i noticed that juicers train and build muscles for others ( to show off) while their internals are all messed up...while naturals workout for themselves to feel good to look good to be healthy they don't train for others


----------



## NoCode8511 (Apr 19, 2012)

bjg said:


> yes we could put it at rest but one thing i wanted to add...i noticed that juicers train and build muscles for others ( to show off) while their internals are all messed up...while naturals workout for themselves to feel good to look good to be healthy they don't train for others



I tried to talk to you but.... you really are one stupid fuck! I juice and could care less about "building muscles for other people and to show off."

Please die!


----------



## Curt James (Apr 19, 2012)

NoCode8511 said:


> We could argue all day and night about this subject. I have read most of the studies that you pm'd me since I did ask for them. Some made sense, and that is why I stay away from certain compounds. But to say that we loose all our gains, I have to disagree with that. I have ran 3 injectable cycles and three ph's, and I have only lost a few lbs after the cycle (water weight.) And that was after I ran a proper PCT. I even had a few months off from lifting due to injuries and kept all my size.
> 
> *Edit: I think its time we give this thread a rest.*



Perhaps you should give _replying to this thread_ a rest.


----------



## KILLEROFSAINTS (Apr 19, 2012)

bjg said:


> XYZ i am not your office boy or secretary to look for studies for you..you  can do so yourself...as for me i don't need any study to know what is the truth ....i ve been around ..as for primo i said that it is advertised by steroids sites that it does not shut you down and it is well known from experienced bodybuilders..however, i also said that i still don't believe it if taken at high doses if you recall ...so if you have a fixation on contradicting me ..it is getting boring..
> you will not find a single medical study that will say that steroids are good for you....however juicers do not want to admit it so instead they go claiming that there are no studies that say it is bad or it can kill you....so in general people will believe what they want....but if you want  you can go ask your doctor endocrinologist and he will tell you what he studied throughout his 10 years ...and you probably you won't like the answer if you were a juicer.
> As far as my knowledge about AAS ..i am proud to say that yes it is limited if you think knowledge in AAS is the kind gathered by some punks in the gym...and  for sure i really don't care about AAS that much since i know what it does.....if i want to know about AAS i just go to experts the kind who write articles and do research ..i am surrounded by them at the university.
> As far as being in red or green or whatever i really don't care ..i made my millions...






routinely prescribed medicine



period


the end



shut up


----------



## Qwai Chang (Apr 20, 2012)

Damn!  Some folks will never get it through their fucking thick-headedness that steroids will not harm you.  Case in point, I was natural years ago, but now I'm an old man and I need the "juice" to continue or lose everything gained while natural and on steroids.  Most of you guys do about two to three cycles a year thereabouts, but me, I've been on a seven year cycle of testosterone.  I inject at 1,000mg-5,000mg a month depending on how I feel.  Starting out natural is fine, but it takes dedication, discipline, motivation, persistence, consistency, drive, and a strong desire to reach your goals with the use of AAS, but in my respect, those things were replaced with something else and now its steroids for life because if I should stop at this point, I'll crash and burn.  Ignore my previous posts please.


----------



## hill450 (Apr 20, 2012)

bjg said:


> yes we could put it at rest but one thing i wanted to add...i noticed that juicers train and build muscles for others ( to show off) while their internals are all messed up...while naturals workout for themselves to feel good to look good to be healthy they don't train for others



I don't workout for anyone but myself and if I want gear to take it to the next level then that is my choice. You have no right to make that claim. There are a lot of douches that juice to show off but I'll never be that way. I work hard for what I have and I will keep working just as hard. Gear is just icing on the cake and I love icing. Quit fighting it so much its just more of what you already have. I don't think people are pressured into using test or other steroids very often. If you want to be natural more power to you but don't criticize people who don't want to be. Its not your place.


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## Qwai Chang (Apr 20, 2012)

Qwai Chang said:


> Damn!  Some folks will never get it through their fucking thick-headed-ness that steroids will not harm you.  Case in point, I was natural years ago, but now I'm an old man and I need the "juice" to continue or lose everything gained while natural and on steroids.  Most of you guys do about two to three cycles a year thereabouts, but me, I've been on a seven year cycle of testosterone.  I inject at 1,000mg-5,000mg a month depending on how I feel.  Starting out natural is fine, but it takes dedication, discipline, motivation, persistence, consistency, drive, and a strong desire to reach your goals without the use of AAS, but in my respect, those things were replaced with something else and now its steroids for life.  I've never look at steroids as a means to strut around the gym and "show-off".  "Showing-off" what?  Some child-like stupidity seeking attention?  There are plenty of those assholes in the gym already and they don't take any kind of steroid.  The guys that are huge are really "gentle giants" and they keep to themselves.  Yet, you always get the pack of guys that like to yell, talk loud, grunt, moan while doing a set and these guys are ALL NATURAL with BAD BEHAVIOR!!
> Ignore my previous posts please.



XOXOXOXOXP Thanks


----------



## colochine (Apr 21, 2012)

Qwai Chang said:


> XOXOXOXOXP Thanks



Gtfo


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## mssimpsons (May 30, 2012)

I just prefer to be "natural."


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## Qwai Chang (Jun 4, 2012)

*Opps!*



colochine said:


> Gtfo



Just got back in town from a brief respite.  I tried to change my post here, but I screwed it up somehow.  I believe most guys and gals shouldn't let a syringe of steroids hit their asses until they are in late '40's and early '50's.  I take the AAS only to maintain what I have and my training days and routines are ever-changing.  It felt really great going natural for 15 years and I was almost just as big as the guys using AAS.  Beginning at 155lb to 238lb., but I must write this, I hate using steroids as a crutch and if I were to stop using them, I would become a frail old man.


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## R11HNO (Jun 26, 2012)

Natural for life...its good to hear...for a bit of fun click here:  

The Chimpanzee body building routine - YouTube


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## btex34n88 (Jun 26, 2012)

I consider myself "natural"...based on how i eat, now in terms of supplements..im a fucking roid injecting gorilla


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## Qwai Chang (Jul 10, 2012)

You can't be "natural" in a "unnatural world".


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## andyrodgers (Jul 31, 2012)

Using steroids leads to no advantage, period. 
If you compete and you use steroids in a untested show, well, guess what?  Most of the other guys are using also.  So, why even bother?  Its not  going to help you win.


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## Qwai Chang (Aug 1, 2012)

*Say no to Steroids*



andyrodgers said:


> Using steroids leads to no advantage, period.
> If you compete and you use steroids in a untested show, well, guess what?  Most of the other guys are using also.  So, why even bother?  Its not  going to help you win.



Steroids have advantages when used properly.  I'm sure you read that quite a number of people use steroids to keep from wasting away.  Hospitals prescribe and administer steroids to patients daily.
  They help to keep a person from losing muscle mass and help to increase appetite.

I suggest that any young guy that is considering using steroids at say 17 thru 30years of age shouldn't because you will hijack your natural physical potential.  If you are going to use them wait until you are 40 years old.

Suppose I wanted to go the  powerlifting/strongman route or even better the natural bodybuilders' route.   I'd be safe from the guys that use enhancements, no worries about "He's huge, damn those quads are awesome", etc, etc.  We all would relatively be within the same range as far as musculature is concern.  PL and SM competitions are natural and drug induced.
Which comp pays more money? Can I get endorsements, photo on a magazine, deals, etc, etc.   I prefer not to use steroids, but I'm currently on TRT,  pretty much the same.

I came across an article that pointed to a fact that I had over looked.  Aging doesn't lower testosterone, it's the person lifestyle, eating habits, sleeping habits, sexual activity, mental and emotional health, and the list goes on.  I said aloud, "Son of a Bitch"!  I have over 20 vials of TEST E that I've been hoarding from the TRT clinic and I'm going to give the stuff away.   That article opened my eyes and made me aware of something that I had taken for granted, my God-Given Body. 

Don't use steroids they may become a "crutch" and you may find yourself unable to live without them.


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## Qwai Chang (Aug 4, 2012)

bjg said:


> the faster you gain the faster you loose ! muscle built with time is the muscle that will last. When you use steroids your gains will last only if:
> 1-You are already built and have many years of lifting behind you
> 2- the steroid dosage you used is minimal in a way it will not cause any testosterone shut down of your system
> 3- you keep the same level of workout after you stop steroids
> ...



Have you experimented or experienced what you wrote?  I'm what call you a "Juicer".  Six years so far,any advice for me?


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## R11HNO (Aug 5, 2012)

*Reason for being Natural*



bjg said:


> money is no issue at all for me
> Number 1 reason: health , physical and mental
> Number 2: better results in the long run
> Number 3: the challenge and the satisfaction
> ...




Great response.....my experiences and thoughts are here:Steroids vs Natuaral body building


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## bjg (Aug 5, 2012)

Qwai Chang said:


> Have you experimented or experienced what you wrote?  I'm what call you a "Juicer".  Six years so far,any advice for me?


having been around and having my own gym i have trained many people and followed up on them .....i never encourage steroids..but i have to admit that some are naturally much more gifted than others...some took steroids under my advice since they just insisted on doing so ...but the dosage was really minimal  and they had at least 7-8 years of training behind them if not more(so a very solid basis) and the results were very good compared to the ones taking regular cycles ...when i say results it includes: muscle gains and medical issues and problems, mental problems, etc....i must say though that they followed closely the training i designed for them and they were extremely motivated..so i think the training had a lot to do with it + they had a very solid basis and understanding for training + good diet.
i have the chance and the time to experiment a lot in the gym and always come up with some new exercises that i find very effective.


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## bjg (Aug 5, 2012)

R11HNO said:


> Great response.....my experiences and thoughts are here:Steroids vs Natuaral body building


 nice article there , wish many would read it.
i am 51 myself and been training since 15......and from all the bodybuilders my age that i knew since a young age and who took steroids and still taking for some..i  have to say that honestly i have the best shape and the most strength and health.....some of my students think that i m in my 30's ( i am naturally well built and have the tendency to build up muscle quickly).
would steroids make me stronger ??? of course but i don't care since i am not competing with anyone ...and i hate to be dependent on anything..
at my age now i am as strong as ever although strength is not my goal right now. i am enjoying my workouts in my own gym..always experimenting and coming up with new stuff..always learning, so
i say i can beat steroids with brains


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## jasjotbains (Aug 8, 2012)

I prefer being natural, as taking roids might make you look good initially, but as you grow older, the side-effects begin to show up in the most unwanted ways !!


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## Standard Donkey (Aug 8, 2012)

R11HNO said:


> Great response.....my experiences and thoughts are here:Steroids vs Natuaral body building




after reading your article, the only thing I have to say is i sincerely hope that english is not your first language..

i was curious as to why bjg thought the article would be good, and now i can see why lol.. funny shit in there


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## skinnyguy180 (Aug 10, 2012)

jasjotbains said:


> I prefer being natural, as taking roids might make you look good initially, but as you grow older, the side-effects begin to show up in the *most unwanted ways *!!



Like what? enlighten uswith your wisdom HAHAH.


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## Qwai Chang (Aug 12, 2012)

jasjotbains said:


> I prefer being natural, as taking roids might make you look good initially, but as you grow older, the side-effects begin to show up in the most unwanted ways !!



You have that knowledge from a now defunct college or teaching facility that has lost its accreditation and credentials. 
I only the I lost since being steroids on "The Will To Kill" and I have a .40cal S&W with a CCW.  
I appreciate the life GOD has given and steroids have made my life better.  The only sides I have on AAS is fucking badsass acne.  As long as it don't mess up my handsome face.


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## jasjotbains (Aug 16, 2012)

Qwai Chang said:


> You have that knowledge from a now defunct college or teaching facility that has lost its accreditation and credentials.


Its funny that Wikipedia still believes in the "now defunct college or teaching facility". Anabolic steroid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For all those who are currently on roids and believe it gives no drawbacks, Steroids And Their Harmful Side Effects | Muscle & Strength

See you in a few years


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## bjg (Aug 16, 2012)

^^^ of course steroids have their harmful side effects especially the long term effects...many just think that with PCT you can eliminate these effects but all they are doing is reduce or avoid the insignificant side effects or short term ones like: shut down, hair loss, acne, gyno  etc.... but they can never avoid the serious problems such as heart problems, vascular problems, cancer, liver, kidney etc....
But many are willing to pay the price..it is their choice


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## Qwai Chang (Aug 17, 2012)

jasjotbains said:


> Its funny that Wikipedia still believes in the "now defunct college or teaching facility". Anabolic steroid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> For all those who are currently on roids and believe it gives no drawbacks, Steroids And Their Harmful Side Effects | Muscle & Strength
> 
> See you in a few years



These colleges and facilities still believe in bullshit.
I've been on on steroids for many years, some call it "cruising", I say
"It's my weekly medicine"!  And my say about steroids, "Fuck with my shit you get killed!"  Lol


----------



## Qwai Chang (Aug 17, 2012)

Qwai Chang said:


> These colleges and facilities still believe in bullshit.  Cruising on for seven years no problems from my wife?, kids?, other relatives. DER HULK!


----------



## bjg (Aug 17, 2012)

^^^ this is called luck....a friend of mine has been on heavy steroids with not even PCT and no sides from it....why????he is just lucky .....so you are ...but for how long do you think ?
what happens with one man is not a basis for a rule..you are so far the exception to the rule...what happens with the majority can lead to a medical rule.


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## Qwai Chang (Aug 19, 2012)

bjg said:


> ^^^ this is called luck....a friend of mine has been on heavy steroids with not even PCT and no sides from it....why????he is just lucky .....so you are ...but for how long do you think ?
> what happens with one man is not a basis for a rule..you are so far the exception to the rule...what happens with the majority can lead to a medical rule.



Yeah, I can understand where you are coming from.  I don't see it as "Luck or Being Fortunate".  I've read about the sides effects of steroids many times and I do it daily to keep my mind focused on the possibles dangers, if any.  I have yet to experience any ill effects from my steroid usage.  I will continue as long as the product is produced.
I can only say that, "I'm an exception to that rule".  I used PCT six years ago, but now I find it to be unnecessary.


----------



## Merkaba (Aug 21, 2012)

Qwai Chang said:


> I came across an article that pointed to a fact that I had over looked.  Aging doesn't lower testosterone, it's the person lifestyle, eating habits, sleeping habits, sexual activity, mental and emotional health, and the list goes on.  I said aloud, "Son of a Bitch"!  I have over 20 vials of TEST E that I've been hoarding from the TRT clinic and I'm going to give the stuff away.   That article opened my eyes and made me aware of something that I had taken for granted, my God-Given Body.


  So you got reminded of that after reading one article?


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## andyrodgers (Aug 24, 2012)

there is no problem with all, but i think to be save is to be natural


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## MegaManlet (Aug 28, 2012)

-i'm not even close to maximum natural muscle growth potential
-most people i know that are on the juice that compete have shitty work ethic and i still have better gains/look better than them
-i'm competing next year, if i'm going to do it. i'm going to do it right
-already found supplements out there that make me go apeshit in the gym anyway and put me on edge
-i already look ridiculously huge for 155lb with good measurments. can't imaging another 15-20lb.
-i started bodybuilding for a getaway, a safe haven. and to make my body a slave to my mind, not my mind a slave to my body
-it was only meant for hobby, if opportunities come my way. then, good. still gonna stay natty.


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## Qwai Chang (Aug 29, 2012)

jasjotbains said:


> Its funny that Wikipedia still believes in the "now defunct college or teaching facility". Anabolic steroid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> For all those who are currently on roids and believe it gives no drawbacks, Steroids And Their Harmful Side Effects | Muscle & Strength
> 
> See you in a few years



I'm not about worried any drawbacks from steroid usage.  Should I let the harmful effects of a gun-toting asshole effect my life? Hell no, buy a gun and get a CCW! 
I haven't experienced the "so-called" harmful side effects of steroids maybe because it has only been 7 years, maybe time will tell.

Yep,  you'll see my old ass on stage.  Look for the old man with "Yin and Yang" symbols on his upper arms.


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## Qwai Chang (Aug 29, 2012)

MegaManlet said:


> -i'm not even close to maximum natural muscle growth potential
> -most people i know that are on the juice that compete have shitty work ethic and i still have better gains/look better than them
> -i'm competing next year, if i'm going to do it. i'm going to do it right
> -already found supplements out there that make me go apeshit in the gym anyway and put me on edge
> ...



I can see that you have over twenty years or more of muscle building potential.
Train hard, train strong!


----------



## skinnyguy180 (Aug 31, 2012)

MegaManlet said:


> -i'm not even close to maximum natural muscle growth potential
> -most people i know that are on the juice that compete have shitty work ethic and i still have better gains/look better than them
> -i'm competing next year, if i'm going to do it. i'm going to do it right
> -already found supplements out there that make me go apeshit in the gym anyway and put me on edge
> ...



BHAHAHAH right i see 155ers all the time and think wow hes big.

You natty guys are funnier than a gay pride parade.


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## Qwai Chang (Sep 1, 2012)

skinnyguy180 said:


> BHAHAHAH right i see 155ers all the time and think wow hes big.
> 
> You natty guys are funnier than a gay pride parade.



Yeah! try taking a 10,000mg. shot in your ass!  Very easy!


----------



## andyrodgers (Sep 7, 2012)

Thanks for sharing such nice information, keep it up


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## SFW (Sep 7, 2012)

andyrodgers said:


> Thanks for sharing such nice information, keep it up



I choose to be natty because i want to look toned up and not big and bulky. If you look at the latest fashion from milan, it all suited for slender builds. Not big apes. Plus being all big and jerked is just disgusting.


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## Qwai Chang (Sep 12, 2012)

SFW said:


> I choose to be natty because i want to look toned up and not big and bulky. If you look at the latest fashion from milan, it all suited for slender builds. Not big apes. Plus being all big and jerked is just disgusting.



So, you want to stay looking as a "skinny fitness model", missing out on your genetic potential for the rest of your life?  I didn't get into BB until late, if I had started in my teens  or '20's, I don't think I would be posting here.  AS far as AAS is concerned with building muscle.  It's what you do with it.  Don't fuck with it if you have no wherewith all how to use AAS.  
The "big and jerky" are the guys that have gone overboard in their development and never had taken the time to get rudimentary and nerve functionality of their muscle groups.


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## Qwai Chang (Sep 15, 2012)

I do like the way the "natural bodybuilders" take pride in the fact that they will not use steroids.  Considering that "natty guys" don't have to compete against "steroid guys", the playing field is level.
I remember years ago, '70's, someone on the base wanted to put together a "Mr. Natural"  bodybuilding contest.  Of the twenty guys, the promoter interviewed 16 had admitted to taking steroids which was quite legal at the time and made the contest shutdown.  No natural here.  I was one of the natural guys and it freaked the steroid users that pound for pound, I just as big and better than they were!
NOT ANYMORE! lol


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## sandiebroker (Oct 10, 2012)

It's always easy to get back into shape even after long breaks.


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## sohappy (Oct 22, 2012)

Playing with your health and hormones can cause more negative sides than positive.


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## fit26 (Dec 2, 2012)

Steroids are very expensive and seems very complicated.  Natural is cheaper and simple.


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## Standard Donkey (Dec 2, 2012)

sohappy said:


> Playing with your health and hormones can cause more negative sides than positive.




true


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## Standard Donkey (Dec 2, 2012)

fit26 said:


> Steroids are very expensive and seems very complicated.  *Natural is cheaper and simple*.




true


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## Merkaba (Dec 2, 2012)

Merkaba said:


> I'm 35, 36 in July.  I'm on a perpetual cut right now.  I was up to right at 270 a year ago, with a six pack, natural.  I can tell my joints/body weren't made to carry that weight.  I just feel better overall that I've come down Currently at 240 and not stopping.  I'm tired of "being big-ger" ...  Hell i never really wanted to be that big but realized that I was.  You look at an old pic and you're like dang, I was big(slightly fat in comparison to me now) I couldn't deny it. Now I'm trying to cut...naturally, perhaps do another show.  Talk about a challenge.  We all aren't going for the same goals.  I mean, it's not just about getting bigger for alot of us, natural or assisted.  I take a small small small percentage of offense to statements that assume every guy is trying to get bigger.
> 
> And hell now, I get so many fuckers asking and swearing I've taken something that it's more of a reason not to!  I'm getting ready to get a tank top made that says 100% Natural or some shit on it, with a logo I had done up just to silence the minds of those wondering. When i'm in the gym, all I talk about is eating, what I'm gonna eat when i get home...people think I'm joking when I tell them what I eat or how much, and that as far as I'm concerned it's 90% of the equation for someone who is experienced at lifting.  They think I'm joking, but meanwhile think I'm "using"...cause i can't be serious.  I'm like dude I've been lifting since 7th grade.  " I bet you workout everyday don't you.."  No...  ETC...shit gets old.  The meathead assumptions, etc.  *I tell people look, with what I know(not that I know everything) but if I were on something, oh you wouldn't have to ask bro!  I don't come to the gym to sit on a ball or do abs.  I'd be blowing some shit out in the rack injuring myself or a bystander I know it.  I would love to know how it feels, but hell I'd love to know how heroine feels too!*


 Holy shit I was reading through some old threads and read this.  Exactly 8 days after writing this I broke the universal cable machine seated row!  I was literally "jack3d" up, headphones on, breathing hard ready, full stack, I load up and pull...I heard and felt a pop and the next thing I know I'm rolled under the seated calf machine that was of course 5 fee behind me.  Hit my head, leg, fell on my back. Went to the hospital. Nothing major, but developed some kinda scar tissue or nerve/spinal block and my right leg got weak.  I'm still rehabbing. And that was still natural.  Gotta be careful what I talk about!


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## robbymorals (Dec 27, 2012)

fit26 said:


> Steroids are very expensive and seems very complicated.  Natural is cheaper and simple.



Very true. And with steroids, we need to follow a very strict diet.


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## PirateMonster (Jan 3, 2013)

fit26 said:


> Steroids are very expensive and seems very complicated.  Natural is cheaper and simple.


Many teens I know, spend more money on supps than it would cost them to run 500mg test per week...



robbymorals said:


> Very true. And with steroids, we need to follow a very strict diet.


wot?

Cals at maintenance
Low fats
Increase proatz to 2g/lb bw
increase carbs to fill remaining cals


HOW IS THIS STRICT IMO


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## Tanman_zilla (Jan 25, 2013)

*Must take advantage of the Natural High Test./HGH flow that you men have Naturally at a young age! *

Let's say from a scale 1-10, for natural Test/GH in a person's system--I am at about a 6-7 with natural test/GH, but when I was 18 not taking advantage of it, I was at a 10.

At 18, our endocrine system is pumping so much hormones with a greater water balance! .. But, being young usually means bad food intake full of toxic junk being pushed out our skin (acne/pimples) before we really know how to take care of our health.


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## PirateMonster (Jan 26, 2013)

Tanman_zilla said:


> *Must take advantage of the Natural High Test./HGH flow that you men have Naturally at a young age! *
> 
> Let's say from a scale 1-10, for natural Test/GH in a person's system--I am at about a 6-7 with natural test/GH, but when I was 18 not taking advantage of it, I was at a 10.
> 
> At 18, our endocrine system is pumping so much hormones with a greater water balance! .. But, being young usually means bad food intake full of toxic junk being pushed out our skin (acne/pimples) before we really know how to take care of our health.


Not trying to convince anyone to do anything...


But natural test peaks in the 20s-30s...
And natural test levels (in the high range) are around 1/10th of a low dose cycle dose...

Natural hormone levels do barely anything.

Same with GH, 2ius per day would be far more than natural levels for most


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## Lucas22 (Mar 3, 2013)

my opnion ...


One. living with parents, and fear of being kicked out .. lol
2nd. not having money
3rd. be afraid
4th. lastly, do not have goals to compete along with fear ..
5th. hoping to achieve this "natural limit"

MY OPNION


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## jusvicious (Mar 3, 2013)

Merkaba said:


> Holy shit I was reading through some old threads and read this.  Exactly 8 days after writing this I broke the universal cable machine seated row!  I was literally "jack3d" up, headphones on, breathing hard ready, full stack, I load up and pull...I heard and felt a pop and the next thing I know I'm rolled under the seated calf machine that was of course 5 fee behind me.  Hit my head, leg, fell on my back. Went to the hospital. Nothing major, but developed some kinda scar tissue or nerve/spinal block and my right leg got weak.  I'm still rehabbing. And that was still natural.  Gotta be careful what I talk about!


The stuff I read on here is incredible. First this guy, u come on a natural tread and talk shit and don have to prove anything!! 270 with six pack abs??? Are you 6'8??? Jay cutler is 5'10 260lbs on season with 30 in thighs and 22' arms!! You saying 6 pack implies u have maximum 10-12% body fat. So natural your bigger than jay cutler? Really?? Tard!!!!

also a guy earlier said steriods give no advantage?? Another tard!!!! Just full of them on here. Tell me why they ban steriods in sports?? Cause they don't want there guys looking good?? NO ass!!! It's cause a 42 yo man hit 70 home runs!!!!!! What silly little people we have on here!! Throw anything out there cause its the Internet!!!!


----------



## bjg (Mar 4, 2013)

steroids = cheating
steroids= stupidity
steroids= lack of self confidence
steroids= health hazards
steroids= ignorance
steroids= psychological disorder


today's pro bodybuilding is not a sport it is a shame to sport and the judges at pro competitions should be hanged especially when it comes to women bodybuilding 

the only bodybuilding is the natural way and true results come from hard work and dedication and intelligent workout and diet.


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## Intense (Mar 4, 2013)

The only thing that would ever keep me from staying on, are the sex issues.


It's like when im on test my libido is fucking skyrocketing but my erections arent as hard and I dont last quite as long. No homo


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## bjg (Mar 4, 2013)

^^^ and that too......for me no difference for the last 30 years ...natural is the only way...... 
one has to ask himself : Why bodybuilding, what is it for him.


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## Intense (Mar 4, 2013)

Why are you even on this board then? Go join a natty forum


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## jusvicious (Mar 5, 2013)

Lmao!! I luv it!!! Cheating at what?? I don't compete. Well I guess it's cheating when women come up to me and ask where I workout. See when your natural and workout it keeps u thin so your not overweight. Now run some AAS and your built!! So yeah I guess it's cheating.
and Viagra will take care of any problems and make u super human in bed.
Bjm I see why your jealous not only am I bigger and stronger but I stay harder and last longer in bed. U just can't win. 
Hey smaller weaker and bad in bed but u can give an excuse......... My small ass is all natural!!! Congrats!!!!


----------



## dave 236 (Mar 5, 2013)

jusvicious said:


> The stuff I read on here is incredible. First this guy, u come on a natural tread and talk shit and don have to prove anything!! 270 with six pack abs??? Are you 6'8??? Jay cutler is 5'10 260lbs on season with 30 in thighs and 22' arms!! You saying 6 pack implies u have maximum 10-12% body fat. So natural your bigger than jay cutler? Really?? Tard!!!!
> 
> also a guy earlier said steriods give no advantage?? Another tard!!!! Just full of them on here. Tell me why they ban steriods in sports?? Cause they don't want there guys looking good?? NO ass!!! It's cause a 42 yo man hit 70 home runs!!!!!! What silly little people we have on here!! Throw anything out there cause its the Internet!!!!


Merkaba has been posting here a long time. He has plenty of pics up. Dont know if he got to 270 but hes big. Just sayin


Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## XYZ (Mar 5, 2013)

bjg said:


> steroids = cheating
> steroids= stupidity
> steroids= lack of self confidence
> steroids= health hazards
> ...



Thanks for your opinion, unfortunately, nobody cares what you think.

You have posted MULTIPLE TIMES in this thread proving that you know very little if anything about aas.  If you don't like it fine, that is your opinion.


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## bjg (Mar 5, 2013)

Intense said:


> Why are you even on this board then? Go join a natty forum



we are on "natural bodybuilding" section aren't we??????


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## bjg (Mar 5, 2013)

jusvicious said:


> Lmao!! I luv it!!! Cheating at what?? I don't compete. Well I guess it's cheating when women come up to me and ask where I workout. See when your natural and workout it keeps u thin so your not overweight. Now run some AAS and your built!! So yeah I guess it's cheating.
> and Viagra will take care of any problems and make u super human in bed.
> Bjm I see why your jealous not only am I bigger and stronger but I stay harder and last longer in bed. U just can't win.
> Hey smaller weaker and bad in bed but u can give an excuse......... My small ass is all natural!!! Congrats!!!!



are you for real???


----------



## HFO3 (Mar 5, 2013)

Why all the hatred and condescension directed to users of AAS?   Do you believe you are superior to the members here because of your choice to not use?


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## jusvicious (Mar 5, 2013)

HFO3 that's exactly right and why I'm so pissed. They climb up on their high horse and preach how great they are and how bad we are. And that's fine cause who gives 2 craps. But read the previous pages of comments. They talk like they talking to their Tuesday night bowling team that never drove passed a gym much less trained. The only time a natural dude says there bigger and stronger than me is through a computer. Never in the gym. They just stop what there doing and watch me bench. I could sell tickets. And bjg not only says that protein and all supplements don't work at all but are actually bad for u. There talking about AAS users but never used. Nuff said!


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## jusvicious (Mar 5, 2013)

The sad part is some bros gave good reasons why they choose not to use and I respect them. AAS isn't for everyone but I don't go around bashing them for not using. Well, except for bjg but he knew it was coming.


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## HFO3 (Mar 5, 2013)

I agree, It's a choice everyone gets to make, to each his own. Trying to force feed his opinions through negative connotations of gloom, doom and all out inferiority comparison to the non AAS person is as ridiculous as some of his opinions on the subject. Whatever...


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## XYZ (Mar 6, 2013)

HFO3 said:


> Why all the hatred and condescension directed to users of AAS?   Do you believe you are superior to the members here because of your choice to not use?



bjg claims to know everything about aas use yet has never used and assumes that anyone who does is going to be screwed up for the rest of their life.

Take a look back in this thread where I repetedly asked him to post a study, he never does and thus makes his argument void.


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## HFO3 (Mar 6, 2013)

XYZ said:


> bjg claims to know everything about aas use yet has never used and assumes that anyone who does is going to be screwed up for the rest of their life.
> 
> Take a look back in this thread where I repetedly asked him to post a study, he never does and thus makes his argument void.



His argument became void immediately upon reading his emotionally distraught posts. Even if he stumbled across any potentially valid points he used such poor communication skills you can't take him seriously. He is just


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## bjg (Mar 6, 2013)

XYZ i have presented MANY REAL medical articles if you go the the steroid section you can look them up.....+ the internet is full of "open to public articles" that re in most cases just bullshit...i am a professor and i write articles and i know about publishing articles.
that said, now i do not insult AAS users and  i am not trying to  make myself superior not at all...most of my gym friends are AAS users....you are right it is a choice...
my point of view is my opinion and it is a TRUE FACT that AAS is pretty bad for you...i just disagree with some people who use AAS and deny the fact that it is not good for them by looking up some stupid articles.......a true AAS user do not have to deny the truth...and  should admit that he is taking a big risk in the long run. + Since when Bodybuilding = steroids...i think steroids ruined the whole essence of bodybuilding. Bodybuilding is all about discipline and dedication with ethics it is not a " search for the quickest way to build muscle". Bodybuilding is a quest for bettering yourself, and self accomplishment ..it is not to show off in front of women ..  with steroids you will surely build bigger muscles but it will be cheating on yourself and MOST IMPORTANTLY for the wrong reasons.
So i think i don't only disagree with many on this forum about the MEANS but basically we disagree on the most basic question: "Why bodybuilding and why i am doing it"

finally i am arguing against AAS in the natural bodybuilding and teenager section and this is for a reason: trying to convince new comers to this sport  not to make mistakes because i genuinely feel sorry for many young guys in the gym and i feel it is a responsibility for me to put  them on the right track. How many of you will allow his own son to go ahead and take steroids??????????


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## jusvicious (Mar 6, 2013)

Lol actually my son is doing a cycle which I pin him. He will touch nothing or take nothing unless I tell him. Done right it's as safe as doing anything else. 
Now for long term effects. Since steriods are a new thing and only been out 3-4 years u have a point!...............WAIT! People have been doing them hard since the 60's!!! So we have something to go on. How does Arnold look? How bout Lou? Tell u what bjg just shut up with opinion and show us the bodies???


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## jusvicious (Mar 6, 2013)

Oh btw I'm about to pin my wife with a c of equipoise And she loves it.


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## bjg (Mar 6, 2013)

^^^^ my father is 83 and looks better than arnold today....arnold has a fucked up heart and a fucked up liver.and had surgeries on both heart and liver ..so yeah it is safe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
was just watching a documentary on a french channel with Dr. jean pierre de mondenard one of the most eminent figures in doping and performance enhancing drugs, if you understand french you can see that steroids are really safe yeah? when asked about what other sport besides bodybuilding steroid usage is very common he answered and i quote him (translate): american football because steroids are thought to help in such a sport..then he adds: but the average life expectancy of an american football player was 48 years old and now not more than 55 years old!! so yes you can say steroids are really healthy....i think you should be put in jail for pinning your own son.

oh i forgot dr. de montenard is an idiot he just happens to have more than 40 books on sports medicine  including 13 books on performance enhancing drugs.


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 6, 2013)

Arnold had a genetic defect that was repaired...his mother died of the same thing at a very old age...untreated...you have no idea what you are saying...


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## bjg (Mar 6, 2013)

yes sure genetic defect in both heart and liver...and steroids help him live longer...dude wake up:
Bodybuilding + steroids = heart failure, coronary arteries failure to say the least.....in the documentary i mentioned above this is well explained by dr . de mondenard and there was a 34 years old pro bodybuilder confessing that his open heart surgery and damaged arteries were due to his steroid usage and he only did it for 5 years


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## bjg (Mar 6, 2013)

the human body is not designed to carry all the extra muscles gained by steroids and is not designed to lift heavier weights than intended...there is no cheating nature...you win some you lose some.


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## XYZ (Mar 7, 2013)

bjg said:


> ^^^^ my father is 83 and looks better than arnold today....arnold has a fucked up heart and a fucked up liver.and had surgeries on both heart and liver ..so yeah it is safe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> was just watching a documentary on a french channel with Dr. jean pierre de mondenard one of the most eminent figures in doping and performance enhancing drugs, if you understand french you can see that steroids are really safe yeah? when asked about what other sport besides bodybuilding steroid usage is very common he answered and i quote him (translate): american football because steroids are thought to help in such a sport..then he adds: but the average life expectancy of an american football player was 48 years old and now not more than 55 years old!! so yes you can say steroids are really healthy....i think you should be put in jail for pinning your own son.
> 
> oh i forgot dr. de montenard is an idiot he just happens to have more than 40 books on sports medicine  including 13 books on performance enhancing drugs.




LMFAO.......You really have NO clue.  So, you mean to tell me that concussions, injuries and the consistent impact on every snap of every game has NOTHING to do with them dying at a very young age?  Hmmmmmm........It HAS to be STEROIDS and only STEROIDS.

You are SO full of yourself and have NO idea what you're talking about.


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## XYZ (Mar 7, 2013)

bjg said:


> XYZ i have presented MANY REAL medical articles if you go the the steroid section you can look them up.....+ the internet is full of "open to public articles" that re in most cases just bullshit...i am a professor and i write articles and i know about publishing articles.
> that said, now i do not insult AAS users and  i am not trying to  make myself superior not at all...most of my gym friends are AAS users....you are right it is a choice...
> my point of view is my opinion and it is a TRUE FACT that AAS is pretty bad for you...i just disagree with some people who use AAS and deny the fact that it is not good for them by looking up some stupid articles.......a true AAS user do not have to deny the truth...and  should admit that he is taking a big risk in the long run. + Since when Bodybuilding = steroids...i think steroids ruined the whole essence of bodybuilding. Bodybuilding is all about discipline and dedication with ethics it is not a " search for the quickest way to build muscle". Bodybuilding is a quest for bettering yourself, and self accomplishment ..it is not to show off in front of women ..  with steroids you will surely build bigger muscles but it will be cheating on yourself and MOST IMPORTANTLY for the wrong reasons.
> So i think i don't only disagree with many on this forum about the MEANS but basically we disagree on the most basic question: "Why bodybuilding and why i am doing it"
> ...



Please post several of your articles professor, I think I need an education.  I will be waiting.


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 7, 2013)

ive never once read about Arnold having liver issues....and ive read everything I could get my hands on....take stallone...65...more ripped than ever and caught with gh and test....Arnold is off the sauce and looks much older physically than stallone....bj you have no exp and your biased prevents you from learning anything...you are a typical old dog...im sad for you....but welcome any proof that you have accomplished anything physically so you might have some credibility


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 7, 2013)

freeman....46


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 7, 2013)

43


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 7, 2013)

6o fukin 6


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 7, 2013)

50


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 7, 2013)

competed against the best into his 60s


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 7, 2013)

bjg said:


> ^^^^ my father is 83 and looks better than arnold today....arnold has a fucked up heart and a fucked up liver.and had surgeries on both heart and liver ..so yeah it is safe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> was just watching a documentary on a french channel with Dr. jean pierre de mondenard one of the most eminent figures in doping and performance enhancing drugs, if you understand french you can see that steroids are really safe yeah? when asked about what other sport besides bodybuilding steroid usage is very common he answered and i quote him (translate): american football because steroids are thought to help in such a sport..then he adds: but the average life expectancy of an american football player was 48 years old and now not more than 55 years old!! so yes you can say steroids are really healthy....i think you should be put in jail for pinning your own son.
> 
> oh i forgot dr. de montenard is an idiot he just happens to have more than 40 books on sports medicine  including 13 books on performance enhancing drugs.



pics of your 83 year old father looking better than Arnold...pics of anything...proof of anything


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 7, 2013)

not bad at all for a more than likely natty who has been governor...had open heart surgery...had a broken leg from skiing....motorcycle crash...business man...real estate...charity....drinker...smoker...leading actor...show promoter...organizer of the biggest competition on the face of the planet....more athletes than the olympics....etc...etc..


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## bjg (Mar 7, 2013)

arnold is not that old and he looks like shit for his age ....sylvester stallone looks weird and deformed especially his face....my father at 83  has much better skin than him....all the other bodybuilders who are over 40 are still on AAS and these are some of the few to live long enough ..wait until they stop the juice and we will see how they will look...i am 51 and can do 30 complete pull ups and more than 100 push ups and can still do whatever i used to do when i was 25 no difference at all not even in looks.
in short you can think what you want and take all the steroids you want. you have your opinion and i have mine.

XYZ:  as for my articles they are not open to public since they are in the IEEE magazine under the biomedical section and they are very scientific in nature and  they are mostly about signal processing of the ECG  and mapping of the heart. but if you are interested to check  i'll be happy to find one of the available articles on the internet in the IEEE journals and message it to you.
as for me to prove anything ..i think i passed this level long time ago.
and my advice about bodybuilding supplements and steroids are not to piss anybody off they are genuine with a very good intention so please do not try to change that fact.


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## bjg (Mar 7, 2013)

and XYZ i forgot to tell you : many sports if not all have their share of injuries....the human body  can easily heal such injuries unless it is a brain injury for example which is very rare in football. sports injuries heal and have no effect on health and life expectancy at all at least not to lower average life expectancy by 30 years!!!!


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## HFO3 (Mar 7, 2013)

bjg said:


> steroids = cheating
> steroids= stupidity
> steroids= lack of self confidence
> steroids= health hazards
> ...





HFO3 said:


> Why all the hatred and condescension directed to users of AAS?   Do you believe you are superior to the members here because of your choice to not use?





HFO3 said:


> I agree, It's a choice everyone gets to make, to each his own. Trying to force feed his opinions through negative connotations of gloom, doom and all out inferiority comparison to the non AAS person is as ridiculous as some of his opinions on the subject. Whatever...





HFO3 said:


> His argument became void immediately upon reading his emotionally distraught posts. Even if he stumbled across any potentially valid points he used such poor communication skills you can't take him seriously. He is just





bjg said:


> arnold is not that old and he looks like shit for his age ....sylvester stallone looks weird and deformed especially his face....my father at 83  has much better skin than him....all the other bodybuilders who are over 40 are still on AAS and these are some of the few to live long enough ..wait until they stop the juice and we will see how they will look...i am 51 and can do 30 complete pull ups and more than 100 push ups and can still do whatever i used to do when i was 25 no difference at all not even in looks.
> in short you can think what you want and take all the steroids you want. you have your opinion and i have mine.



Stallone has plastic surgery, which has clearly changed his face.
great for your pops!
good for you with Paul ups and push-ups 
you look the same as you did at 25 and your 50?  C'mon man, you see your self through ros? colored glasses or what?
finally! Yes you have your OPINIONS, not facts, out of the horses mouth as they say.


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## jusvicious (Mar 7, 2013)

I said show me bodies u tell of a study that ave death of football players is 58 and since steriods would help football players steriods must be the cause!! Ahh fuzzy math professor!! Did u just say there's very little head injuries in football? Troy Akman had 10 concussions in 12 years. Steve young retired cause of concussions he had 7. Those are only 2 players and those are diagnosed concussions. They probably had more. U try to make the numbers say what u want them to say. U know nothing. As far as my son, he's not 12!! He's a man, he knows I know a lot about cycles and feels comfortable enough to ask me for help. I feel I'm a good dad, he loves me and respects me enough to want to do it right. I told him there's sides I explained the game to him. He wanted to do a cycle so I help. It's better than him ordering a bunch of deca cause he reads that a baseball player was doing it. Without knowing just shooting a ton of deca alone and random times a week. Steriods can really screw u up if u don't read and do a ton of homework. No one denies that. But last I checked liquor is legal and my dad had cirrhosis of the liver. Abuse and ignorance can harm everyone doing anything. Not just steriods


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## jusvicious (Mar 7, 2013)

Brain injuries are rare in football!!! Lmao!!! We're not talking about soccer u know. All the talk is blow to the head, don't lead with your head. Nfl literally is talking about doing away with kickoffs cause of the injury factor especially head injury!!! Played 7 years coached 6 years and Saints season ticket holder forever!!!! Please don't bring up football. That's the only thing outside family I know and love more than steriods!!! Just stop it!!!!!


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## XYZ (Mar 8, 2013)

bjg said:


> arnold is not that old and he looks like shit for his age ....sylvester stallone looks weird and deformed especially his face....my father at 83  has much better skin than him....all the other bodybuilders who are over 40 are still on AAS and these are some of the few to live long enough ..wait until they stop the juice and we will see how they will look...i am 51 and can do 30 complete pull ups and more than 100 push ups and can still do whatever i used to do when i was 25 no difference at all not even in looks.
> in short you can think what you want and take all the steroids you want. you have your opinion and i have mine.
> 
> XYZ:  as for my articles they are not open to public since they are in the IEEE magazine under the biomedical section and they are very scientific in nature and  they are mostly about signal processing of the ECG  and mapping of the heart. but if you are interested to check  i'll be happy to find one of the available articles on the internet in the IEEE journals and message it to you.
> ...



That sounds like a load of BS to me, so I'll just chalk it up to you lying.


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## XYZ (Mar 8, 2013)

bjg said:


> and XYZ i forgot to tell you : many sports if not all have their share of injuries....the human body  can easily heal such injuries unless it is a brain injury for example which is very rare in football. sports injuries heal and have no effect on health and life expectancy at all at least not to lower average life expectancy by 30 years!!!!



You HAVE to be the most ignorant person that has ever lived.  First you stated that steriods are making the NFL players die young but now you're saying that it's the brain injuries?  Which is it?  Get your lies straight.

You have absolutely no idea about AAS and their long term effects.  NOBODY has done a long term study on this and for you to say otherwise is total BS.  Please post ALL or ANY of the studies you found or STFU because your opinon that is not backed by ANY type of medical study is just that and opinion and not a fact.


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## LCSULLA (Mar 8, 2013)

The only problem I have with guys doing gear is the ones stats the read:

27
5'10
173
17% BF
And 7 cycle??!!!

I mean really? You need to learn how to train and eat. And stop shoving gear into your ass.


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## HFO3 (Mar 8, 2013)

bjg said:


> in short you can think what you want and take all the steroids you want. *you have your opinion and i have mine*.





XYZ said:


> *because your opinon that is not backed by ANY type of medical study is just that and opinion and not a fact*.




XYZ, that is a great post! Read his (bjg's) own words in red print post#285. He knows he is stating opinions, but for whatever reason he is persistent on arguing them as facts. 

bjg, if you wan to be a humanitarian, there are many ways to spend your time accomplishing that, e.g. go to an old folks home and help some people who actually need help. 

It doesn't appear you're accomplishing much of anything, maybe you have some weird vendetta or just enjoy arguing, I'm not sure about that. But I am pretty sure, your fear mongering tactics aren't helping your cause of "steroid awareness"


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## westb51 (Mar 8, 2013)

bjg said:


> the human body  can easily heal such injuries unless it is a brain injury for example which is* very rare* in football.




yes, concussions are very rare in football. you, sir, are a highly regarded professor


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 8, 2013)

bjg said:


> arnold is not that old and he looks like shit for his age ....sylvester stallone looks weird and deformed especially his face....my father at 83  has much better skin than him....all the other bodybuilders who are over 40 are still on AAS and these are some of the few to live long enough ..wait until they stop the juice and we will see how they will look...i am 51 and can do 30 complete pull ups and more than 100 push ups and can still do whatever i used to do when i was 25 no difference at all not even in looks.
> in short you can think what you want and take all the steroids you want. you have your opinion and i have mine.
> 
> XYZ:  as for my articles they are not open to public since they are in the IEEE magazine under the biomedical section and they are very scientific in nature and  they are mostly about signal processing of the ECG  and mapping of the heart. but if you are interested to check  i'll be happy to find one of the available articles on the internet in the IEEE journals and message it to you.
> ...



haha...your an idiot....stallone is deformed....forceps on his head in the womb....my god you really don't know shit do you......please post proof of any of the claims you have made


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 8, 2013)




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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 8, 2013)




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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 8, 2013)




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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 8, 2013)

the best woman bber of all time...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 over 50plus...sure your wife looks better lol


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 8, 2013)

around 50....you look better than her too son?


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 8, 2013)

broken down old roid abuser


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 8, 2013)

the goddess...in her 50s


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 8, 2013)

post anything...prove anything...its not hard...see how I do it?


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 8, 2013)




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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 8, 2013)

post your amazing bis?


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 8, 2013)




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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 8, 2013)




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## HFO3 (Mar 8, 2013)

great pics!


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## bjg (Mar 8, 2013)

great that you posted pictures of frank zane and steve reeves...why don't you ask frank zane's opinion on AAS?????? and why don't you contact Dr. Jean pierre de mondenard and argue with him about AAS???? let me know what he says
and by the way i have seen women much older than those freaks you posted looking better and had never taken any steroids. the ones you posted are not even women. that miss olympia crap should be completely banned it is ridiculous.
and XYZ instead of messaging me telling me that i am a liar...i challenged you and told you that i can send you some of my articles if are interested and you did not reply...


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## PirateMonster (Mar 8, 2013)

Your bias is very irritating to say the least...

Save the scaremongering and misinformation for yourself...

And last but not least, if you look so fcking good why don't you post pictures of yourself/your amazing father/all the other ridiculous people who happen to look better than steroid users.


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## bjg (Mar 8, 2013)

^^^ if you don't like what i have to say go to the steroid user section this is a natural bodybuilding section.
too bad that some of you have to resort to steroids because of some psychological issues.......


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## gettinthere (Mar 8, 2013)

This is my two cents.............. follow the links for part two...........
The Truth About Steroids Part 1 - YouTube


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 8, 2013)

bjg said:


> great that you posted pictures of frank zane and steve reeves...why don't you ask frank zane's opinion on AAS?????? and why don't you contact Dr. Jean pierre de mondenard and argue with him about AAS???? let me know what he says
> and by the way i have seen women much older than those freaks you posted looking better and had never taken any steroids. the ones you posted are not even women. that miss olympia crap should be completely banned it is ridiculous.
> and XYZ instead of messaging me telling me that i am a liar...i challenged you and told you that i can send you some of my articles if are interested and you did not reply...



who cares what zanes opinion is...he used them....a lot....won os....he still looks awesome and he is old...where are these amazing women that look better than these 50 plus year old mrs olympias


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## Curt James (Mar 8, 2013)

Tuco said:


> For those who are natural, *what's your reason to choose being natural? *
> Legality?
> Price?
> Availability?
> Morals?



It's too much to keep track of. I'd never keep it all straight. lol

Or does using AAS increase a person's organizational powers?


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## bjg (Mar 9, 2013)

gettinthere said:


> This is my two cents.............. follow the links for part two...........
> The Truth About Steroids Part 1 - YouTube



my references are from THE expert on sports medicine and steroids author of  40 books on the subject Dr.de mondenard and you show me some retard punk with a ridiculous tan and an earing giving his opinion. for god's sake wake up. sure there are no long term studies on humans about steroids because it is dangerous to do one. but there are medical facts that do not need any study. There are many facts in life that do not need any study to be proven. however studies on animals are conclusive ranging from heart defects, liver cysts and genetic damages. and EVEN if steroids were not proven to be dangerous, it is still really stupid to use them because it is not proven that it is safe (that is even if) + it is simply CHEATING and makes you look ugly, ugly skin, ugly hair, ugly face, especially for women.
and by the away killerof saints, these are not women as for you to find 50 years old women looking better ....it is very simple it is all around you, and i bet your mother looks better than these so called women. your sense of beauty is really distorted. if i was to to choose to have a body like steve reeves or a body like jay cutler i would never hesitate to chose steve reeves and for the record, i think you can achieve a body like steve reeves WITHOUT steroids , it takes time , so what! who is chasing you?....as for me to look like jay cutler i would not do it even if it was a gift from god, for me it is pure deformity


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## bjg (Mar 9, 2013)

studies in the medical field are done for many reasons and most of you here interpret them the way you want. that is why the internet is very misleading. i am in the medical field myself. studies can be done to try to understand a medical phenomenon that is not biologically or medically explained yet so there is nothing else to do but a study or a statistical analysis , for example long time ago they said that babies should sleep on their stomachs, then later they said  that it could cause death for some unknown reason so they should sleep on their back etc.... they relied on observation and studies  because they did not know any better. But  studies in the case of steroids are done for a different reason. The facts about the effect of steroids is already there and the biological and medical facts and processes are already well established and understood, studies come here only to check the probability or the extent of which these facts can be verified. There are many variables here because each body is different and is affected differently......but this does not eliminate the biological and medical FACT. it is not a good example but  sort of like knowing that if one jumps from 5 stories he can die because the speed at which he hits the ground is so and so. Does this need a study??? no because the scientific facts and data are there. studying it may show that some will not die...but are you willing to jump????


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 9, 2013)

there are studies proving positive effects in 84 year old women....aids patients...burn victims....still wainting for proof of anything from you


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## bjg (Mar 9, 2013)

^^^ of course aids and burn victims benefit from steroids...do you qualify?  this kind of debate can go on forever and no matter what proof i give you you will deny it...it is not the subject of this thread, if you want proofs i mentioned the name of the most qualified person to answer your questions, you can contact him or watch any of his documentary or buy one of his books + Steroids and their effects are so well studied in the medical field that you really do not need the best expert , any endocrinologist will give you the answers and you probably won't like them. 
What i am saying is that millions have built their physiques without steroids...so why take the risk?  most people do for the wrong reasons...the problem here lies in the basic question: Why bodybuilding what are the real reasons......,.steroids for bodybuilders is like cocaine or heroin for depressed people ...depressed or mental people should go to the psychiatrist and bodybuilders who found the answer in steroids for the wrong reasons should do the same


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 9, 2013)

we cant argue with your proof...you haven't posted any


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## Curt James (Mar 9, 2013)

KILLEROFSAINTS said:


> *we cant argue with your proof...*you haven't posted any



Proof of what?

That AAS are dangerous? Who _cares? _People drink and smoke and there are well known dangers associated with those activities. 

Proof of the dangers of abuse of AAS? There's been more than one person with kidney issues related to high blood pressure left unchecked, yes?

Regardless, why are you even IN this thread? You're a 20%+ bf guy who probably shouldn't even be _near _AAS or do I have that wrong?


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 9, 2013)

you ARE also a 20+% guy who takes oral steroids...that has nothing to do with anything though


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 9, 2013)

rekon in the thread cause I want to


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## Curt James (Mar 9, 2013)

KILLEROFSAINTS said:


> rekon in the thread cause *I am a douchebag always on the lookout for something to COMPLAIN about*



Fixed.

If it's not that someone hasn't posted pics in their journal it's something else. lol


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 9, 2013)

one look at the guys rep shows I aint the only one that disagrees...but hey 50 year old grown up...carry some crazy grudge for years while spinning your wheels going no where ...seems to have worked just awesome for you....wish you well and great health


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 9, 2013)

funny thing is you liked a lot of the post proving my point...guess you in a bad mood now...whatever...like it matters...I mean you are an old guy who doesn't work out on a bbing forum....clearly free time is plentiful


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 9, 2013)

bjg said:


> if you stay within therapeutic limits then no need for pct, you will see results especially if you are clean ...you will not see big results but you will see results that will motivate you. The idea is not to overload your system with testosterone causing your testicles to shut down and/or start having estrogen problems. you have to just give yourself a small boost.
> primobolan if you can find some real ones not fake are your best choice, my friend has been using them for years taking minimal dosages for few weeks twice a year and primo does not need pct. people think that primo is for cutting , in fact all steroids will make you gain muscle, and primo will make you gain muscle without water retention which makes you feel you are cutting. with some other steroids it  is mostly water. the problem with primo is that it is expensive. I am not sure about  test but probably  if taken with dosages as prescribed by a doctor does not need pct. A good way of being on the safe side is to check the normal cycle dosage and divide it by 4. lets say 200mg weekly is used in a cycle normally then take 50 mg weekly.
> Do not fool yourself, any higher dosages will mess you up and you don't want that. addiction to steroids will not only hurt you physically but will also kill your self confidence and your drive



wow...recommends under hrt


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## Curt James (Mar 9, 2013)

KILLEROFSAINTS said:


> one look at the guys rep shows I aint the only one that disagrees...but hey 50 year old grown up...carry some crazy *grudge *for years while spinning your wheels going no where ...seems to have worked just awesome for you....wish you well and great health



What grudge? You've often mentioned a grudge, but for the life of me I don't see what it could be.

Jealous of bad tattoos and an equally non-Mr. Olympia or even Mr. _Podunk _physique? 



KILLEROFSAINTS said:


> funny thing is *you liked a lot of the post* proving my point...guess you in a bad mood now...whatever...like it matters...I mean you are an old guy who doesn't work out on a bbing forum....clearly free time is plentiful



I clicked Like for _the pics.
_
And I doubt you _have _a worthwhile point. lol Your mantra: "Hey, I'm right. You're wrong. Where are your pics?" 

Knock yourself out.


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 9, 2013)

I don't wanna argue with you it will last forever...you are awesome....ripped huge and strong...biggest smartest brain in the world...cool tat2s...wish I had matching ones...wish I could pull the ladies you pull...I forget anything? you are the almighty curt james...clearly you are the all knowing bbing god


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 9, 2013)

bjg said:


> donkey you have 3 years of research i have more than 35 years of research (your parents did not yet meet)  and after 35 years of research i realized that AAS is not a good choice. So you shut the fuck up with all the other idiots who support you because the last thing you want to do is take advice from a juicer because if he knows anything he would not advise natural people to take juice. idiots like you still think and insist that steroids are safe at the dosage taken in a cycle, idiots like you ONLY look at articles who justify their stupidities and ignore real scientific evidence.
> And yes if bonesaw insists on doing gear a minimal dose would give him a small push.


clearly this dude is not combative


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## bjg (Mar 9, 2013)

Killerofsaints: for me i do not wish to argue i am just giving my opinion, you don't have to agree, but as for me iam very convinced of the following points:
1- steroids are dangerous and are not needed for bodybuilding
2- steroids ruined the sport of bodybuilding and any other sport because it is  neither ethical nor healthy and it is cheating yourself.
3-i believe that with hard work and dedication one can achieve a better physique than with steroids but it takes time..not bigger but nicer, healthier, and lasts much longer.
4-steroids should only be taken for medical reasons
5- this is for pros only: if one insists on taking them he should be under tight medical supervision and under medical advice


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## KILLEROFSAINTS (Mar 9, 2013)

I have a soft spot for steroids...i was so overweight...seemed like my body just wouldnt respond...i had lifted my whole life off and on...but had a depressed period...and metabolic syndrome had sat in....nothing would change even when i was busting my ass...started cheating...lost 76 pounds...gained muscle...got my life back....


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## Intense (Mar 9, 2013)

bjg said:


> Killerofsaints: for me i do not wish to argue i am just giving my opinion, you don't have to agree, but as for me iam very convinced of the following points:
> 1- steroids are dangerous and are not needed for bodybuilding
> 2- steroids ruined the sport of bodybuilding and any other sport because it is  neither ethical nor healthy and it is cheating yourself.
> 3-i believe that with hard work and dedication one can achieve a better physique than with steroids but it takes time..not bigger but nicer, healthier, and lasts much longer.
> ...



So much fail in this post, Im not even going to go into each one.




Medical supervision? Brainwashed idiot, if you would trust a doctor with your hormones I feel sorry for you.


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## Curt James (Mar 9, 2013)

Intense said:


> So much fail in this post, Im not even going to go into each one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



At least he offered this caveat...



bjg said:


> Killerofsaints: for me i do not wish to argue *i am just giving my opinion, you don't have to agree*, but as for me iam very convinced of the following points:
> 1- steroids are dangerous and are not needed for bodybuilding
> 2- steroids ruined the sport of bodybuilding and any other sport because it is  neither ethical nor healthy and it is cheating yourself.
> 3-i believe that with hard work and dedication one can achieve a better physique than with steroids but it takes time..not bigger but nicer, healthier, and lasts much longer.
> ...


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## bjg (Mar 10, 2013)

Intense said:


> So much fail in this post, Im not even going to go into each one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



who should i trust with my hormones? some retard over the internet ????????????
i wonder who is the idiot


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## Intense (Mar 11, 2013)

bjg said:


> who should i trust with my hormones? some retard over the internet ????????????
> i wonder who is the idiot




Well I was referring to yourself(as in research for YOURSELF). So technically the idiot is....


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## Z499 (Mar 11, 2013)

KILLEROFSAINTS said:


> I have a soft spot for steroids...i was so overweight...seemed like my body just wouldnt respond...i had lifted my whole life off and on...but had a depressed period...and metabolic syndrome had sat in....nothing would change even when i was busting my ass...started cheating...lost 76 pounds...gained muscle...got my life back....



+1


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## XYZ (Mar 27, 2013)

michaelawlker said:


> I totally agree with you. Steroids are too dangerous for the human health in a long term so people have to try increase muscles mass through natural ways like exercises and some healthy food.



Please post up one study that states this.  If you can't kindly STFU!  Thank you.


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## bjg (Mar 27, 2013)

^^^^^^ instead of insulting people,  do your own search XYZ nobody is your secretary you do your own search and you will find hundreds of articles.
or go to the anabolic zone and you will see many MEDICAL articles that i have posted long time ago. The reason i don't go there anymore because i do not see any decent person to argue with.


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## XYZ (Mar 28, 2013)

bjg said:


> ^^^^^^ instead of insulting people,  do your own search XYZ nobody is your secretary you do your own search and you will find hundreds of articles.
> or go to the anabolic zone and you will see many MEDICAL articles that i have posted long time ago. The reason i don't go there anymore because i do not see any decent person to argue with.



That is the problem, you don't listen or prove anything, you're just here to argue PERIOD.  Your opinions are yours and that's fine but the way you push them on others is complete BS.

I have yet to see ANY long term study done on AAS use.  You have never posted one.  You telling me to do my own research is laughable as you have yet to produce a single study with ANY type of long term AAS use.  You speak of opinion not facts.

If I come off as attacking in this thread it's because you have yet to have a discussion, it's your way or no way and it's based upon your opinion, not fact.

Until you start posting up facts from medical research, kindly STFU.  Thank you.


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## bjg (Mar 28, 2013)

^^^posting facts is very easy but it is useless with brainless people like you so i guess you can shut the fuck up and if you were closer it would have been my pleasure to shut you up myself...or i tell you what ..you are not worth it


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## charred99 (Mar 28, 2013)

I believe the term "Natural" is quite vague to say the least. Would you say, Whey Protein, although derivedfrom Dairy, is natural, being made in a lab? Same for Creatine, Pre W/O etc

I honestly think roids get a bad rap due to misunderstanding/ignorance for the accusing party. I am contemplating my first cycle, and have dozens of hours of research on many tyoes of AAS just to satisfy my own curiosity.

All comes down to personal preference. I have respect for all gym goers, natural or not.


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## Booby (Mar 29, 2013)

Ive been a competitor all my life wrestling then MMA and i am natty always have been...I preffered to compete that way and took great pride in it even though many of my opponents were using performance enhancing drugs...With that being said i have no problem with people using gear and im planning my first cycle now at 44 years of age.


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## theCaptn' (Mar 29, 2013)

charred99 said:


> I believe the term "Natural" is quite vague to say the least. Would you say, Whey Protein, although derivedfrom Dairy, is natural, being made in a lab? Same for Creatine, Pre W/O etc
> 
> I honestly think roids get a bad rap due to misunderstanding/ignorance for the accusing party. I am contemplating my first cycle, and have dozens of hours of research on many tyoes of AAS just to satisfy my own curiosity.
> 
> All comes down to personal preference. I have respect for all gym goers, natural or not.



Good post  but I think you're splitting hairs on the 1st point.


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## Dr.G (Apr 1, 2013)

Booby said:


> Ive been a competitor all my life wrestling then MMA and i am natty always have been...I preffered to compete that way and took great pride in it even though many of my opponents were using performance enhancing drugs...With that being said i have no problem with people using gear and im planning my first cycle now at 44 years of age.



competing in MMA or wrestling requires skills that are not provided by steroids. as you know it requires technique and lots of endurance agility and speed and also brains. steroids will not help much.


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## Dr.G (Apr 1, 2013)

a healthy diet can give you all the supplements you need without any artificial ingredients. that is the way to go. it is not easy but it is the best healthiest way. bodybuilding is not an easy sports and an easy lifestyle, it requires lots of sacrifice and efforts. today people tend to use supplements and even steroids because it makes things easier...in reality and in the long run this is not true


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## westb51 (Apr 1, 2013)

Dr.G said:


> a healthy diet can give you all the supplements you need without any artificial ingredients. that is the way to go. it is not easy but it is the best healthiest way. bodybuilding is not an easy sports and an easy lifestyle, it requires lots of sacrifice and efforts. today people tend to use supplements and even steroids because it makes things easier...in reality and in the long run this is not true



U telling me that my body can tell the difference between synthetic vitamin C and vitamin C I get from OJ?

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2


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## Dr.G (Apr 2, 2013)

^^^ sure if you want to use vitamins in the long run it is better if it does not contain any artificial ingredients..there are natural vitamin supplements that you can buy from a pharmacy. but still too much of a vitamin is not that good some vitamins and minerals can become toxic.


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## dave 236 (Apr 2, 2013)

Yes. A, D, E, and, K. They are fat soluble. Vit C is water soluble. Too much = expensive urine. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## westb51 (Apr 2, 2013)

Dr.G said:


> ^^^ sure if you want to use vitamins in the long run it is better if it does not contain any artificial ingredients..there are natural vitamin supplements that you can buy from a pharmacy. but still too much of a vitamin is not that good some vitamins and minerals can become toxic.



The correct answer is your body cannot tell the difference between synthetic vitamins and natural occurring ones

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2


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## Dr.G (Apr 3, 2013)

^^^synthetic vitamins contain products that can accumulate in kidney and liver. why use artificial ingredients while you can have natural ones??


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## PirateMonster (Apr 6, 2013)

bjg said:


> ^^^posting facts is very easy but it is useless with brainless people like you so i guess you can shut the fuck up and if you were closer it would have been my pleasure to shut you up myself...or i tell you what ..you are not worth it


Dude, the trolling really isn't funny anymore. All this anti-steroid talk on a *?bodybuilding*? forum gets old very quickly.

If I were a moderator I'd have banned you a long time ago...you're lucky that they're being so tolerant of your degenerate bullsht


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## Dr.G (Apr 6, 2013)

^^ just to be fair i am not defending the guy but  it is a Natural bodybuilding section here and it is normal that someone would talk against steroids...i am against steroids use myself and there is nothing wrong with that.


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## fit26 (Apr 9, 2013)

Be mindful of your workout and nutrition and use calorie portioning diet.  This diet plan kick ass every time for me.  I have seen picture of people who use those stuffs on this forum, and I am not impressed.


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## justhav2p (Apr 9, 2013)

Steroids make your dick small


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## anabolicinsider (Apr 9, 2013)

Steroids do not make your dick small... Side note... If u don't want to use them. That's awesome. Respect . But don't sling thongs that aren't true. 

Sent from my HTCEVOV4G using Tapatalk 2


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## XYZ (Apr 9, 2013)

anabolicinsider said:


> Steroids do not make your dick small... Side note... If u don't want to use them. That's awesome. Respect . But don't sling thongs that aren't true.
> 
> Sent from my HTCEVOV4G using Tapatalk 2



I think he was just kidding.


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## anabolicinsider (Apr 9, 2013)

Most likely. Ps, I didn't mean to write.thongs  lol

Sent from my HTCEVOV4G using Tapatalk 2


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## BP2000 (Apr 9, 2013)

It's true that steriods are not "Healthy". If that were true we would all take steroids. Steroids defined as cycles such as 5 or 10 times the amount of hormone a body produces. Couple that with the bodybuilding lifestyle which places lots of stress on the body and you get injuries. Joints and ligaments that are stressed beyond what they can handle. Do that for YEARS and yes it adds up. Just ask some guys around here. 

They are not dangerous in that you can take a cycle and be ok but long term effects, even though there are no long term studies - you can find this by talking to guys who have used them for years and get their opionion and you come up with injuries, life long TRT, and some other undesirable effects. 99% of steroid user take them for vanity - to look good, be huge, or lift heavier weights. They don't take them because they want to be healhier. If they did they would only take 200mg per week and not 500 or a gram. Not saying anything wrong with that just saying they are not dangerous directly nor or they healthy in the long term. This is true when you use them correctly. 

They ARE dangerous when used improperly. This is true ESPECIALLY with young un-educated males; for example - You could get gyno if not using an AI and you are sensitive to estrogen. You could be looking at shelling out $7,000 for corrective sugury. I know some guys who only took Pro Hormones who shut down their natural Test production and had side effects even after a PCT. low energy, low sex drive and depressed mood. I know one guy who took a cycle of Test (did everything right) and had a bad reaction which caused pigmentation on his entire back. His doctor said that can happen to guys who have bad acne. There are many more examples if you hang out in the TRT section you read them all the time. Being young and having low test could cost you in earning potential at your job, your relationships, etc. so something else to think about.


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## justhav2p (Apr 9, 2013)

Steroids arent healthy? 

Why are they prescribed to men wiyh low T?

Why are they given to burned patients? 

Why are they prescribed for an assortment of illnesses?


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## BP2000 (Apr 9, 2013)

justhav2p said:


> Steroids arent healthy?
> 
> Why are they prescribed to men wiyh low T?
> 
> ...




Did you read what I wrote? Quote *"steriods are defined as taking 5 or 10 times the amount of hormone a male body produces"*

So tech. a replacement dose of T (or slightly higher) does not qualify as Steroid usage and I agree can provide benefits (give more energy, help with sex drive, increase cognition, help with muscle repair, etc.) *to a male who is low on T.*

Recent studies have shown that old men who have low T are more prone to heart attacks than men who had higher T. 

*But we are not talking about replacement dose of T we are talking about Steroid cycles and young men taking them*. It is true that older men can benefit from taking T and be healthier than with low T but a young male with normal T will not improve his health from taking large doses of hormones - I would argue he would lessen his health by doing this. Lipids usually on cycle are out of whack, high BP, higher chance of MPB (to those who are prone) and recovery of natural T after a cycle are all risk factors. And other factors I mentioned like reactions to large doses of T. I don't know anyone who would argue that taking large cycles of Steroids improves health?


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## BP2000 (Apr 9, 2013)

IF a young male wants to increase his performance or has certain goals (look good for the summer, gain lean muscle mass, lose body fat) he can easily acheive those goals by doing something called* WORK *- assuming his T levels are high (young men 17-27 have the highest T levels of their life)  he just needs a good nutrition program, weight program, and cardio program (maybe leave out the cardio depending on metabolism) and can meet or exceed those goals with a little bit of sweat equity and time.


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## justhav2p (Apr 9, 2013)

I choose not to read the books you post. Sowwies


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## longworthb (Apr 10, 2013)

Your ignorance amazes me ^^^^


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## Dr.G (Apr 10, 2013)

i am not sure why this whole debate. Ok steroids are not healthy and can cause very bad side effects and/or long term damage but also they increase your muscle mass.
so i think there are very obvious points here:
1- steroids used for bodybuilding are unhealthy,  period,  there is no question about it, if you like steroids it does not make them safe so no need to debate about that.
using people who take steroids and are not harmed by them is not an excuse or a justification. 
2- steroids like ANY OTHER medication are used for therpeutic reasons when the benefits outweigh the harm.
3- many people take steroids for the wrong reasons and they are free to do so. will this make them assholes surely NO they just CHOSE to do it and are willing to take the risks...... so be it.
4- many choose not to take them that is also ok.

As far as i am concerned i do not take steroids because i want to stay helathy and i am not a pro bodybuilder and i never want to be, i consider myself very knowlegeable about training, and i have trained many people and i have my own Gym (planning soon on having a much bigger gym). being a pro and looking in competition shape does not make you knowlegeable in bodybuilding in fact i think many olympians do not know how ton train on their own.

i did take steroids ( 2 very mild cycles of anavar ) and i had great results with it. but that was it i did it out of curiosity. will i do it again??? never. in fact i have learned that with proper diet and really proper training i can achieve very good results  and at my age 52 i look like i am 32. many here are concerned about testosterone levels and all that. for me it is all a waste of time, just concentrate on your workout and forget all the chemistry and all the hormonal crap, right now i am  all natural and perhaps with low test levels who knows, i am getting results as much as when i was 20, why? because i am a much smarter bodybuilder.


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## justhav2p (Apr 10, 2013)

longworthb said:


> Your ignorance amazes me ^^^^



Why so serious all the time? Tren?


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## longworthb (Apr 10, 2013)

That was last cycle


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## C3p0 (Apr 11, 2013)

Ive been natural for 13 years. Honestly Ive just always known the health risks and watched dudes have issues and/or die from them growing up. Its a big commitment and not something that should be taken lightly or as a way to cheat gains. I was never ready for that commitment. Am now though ha.


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## 69ingchipmunks (Apr 13, 2013)

I like to big without an asterisk by name. Hard work can get people big if they are prepared mentally to be strong enOugh to continue in tougher times. Also looks good. Get to keep my balls and hair when I'm older. I keep my gains, if took a break form steroids when on them I'd lose most of my gains; when natural I don't have to worry about hormones


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