# Are oats a bad PWO/Post Cardio Carb?



## cpush (Aug 3, 2005)

I was doing some browsing and saw many recommend post workout carbs to be from simple carb sources and to not have fiber, which oats obviously is not.  Usually post workout/cardio I go for some oats and tuna and maybe some kashi go lean.  Should I switch up the carb source there?  

Also, does it depend on your goals?  I would like to know best pwo/cardio carb source for when you're on a cut and when you want to gain muscle(if it's different).  Thanks!


----------



## tucker01 (Aug 3, 2005)

All I use is Oats, no Simple Carb sources for me, doesn't matter what my diet is


----------



## Doublebase (Aug 3, 2005)

I do oats and a scoop of protein.


----------



## furion joe (Aug 3, 2005)

Simple carb sources digest/absorb quickly and as such cause a rapid rise in insulin levels ??? aka ???the spike.???  The result of fast digesting carb sources (post workout) is an increase in protein synthesis (provided that you take in protein pwo), the replenishment of glycogen stores/levels, and the initiation of the recovery process.

Complex carbs such as oats elicit a smaller insulin release and tend to be absorbed slower than those of the simple kind.  Complex carbs are fine after training, but overall, simple carbs combined with a fast digesting protein (such as egg whites or whey protein) is an ideal way to take advantage of the pwo window of opportunity.  IMO???

Some people use the pwo spike while others do not.  The best way to find out if this method works for you is to try it and see what happens.

If you are trying to gain mass or lose fat, pwo carbs are important for the reasons mentioned above.  The best post workout/cardio carb source is the one that works for you.  I like to use white rice +/- raisins (with whey), and sometimes maltodextrin or dextrose, while others might like to use oats, white bread, bagels, potatoes, beans, etc.

The ???magic bullet??? resides in your personal preference ??? what works ??? what gives you the best results.   

Also, if you are doing your cardio sessions separately from your workouts, it would be a better idea to use a complex carb source afterwards.  Or taking in a pro/fat meal to ensure that insulin levels are kept under control and the "fat burning mode" is maintained and extended for a longer period of time.  All depends on your goals...


----------



## 007 (Aug 3, 2005)

Oats are great...


----------



## The Monkey Man (Aug 3, 2005)

Your body takes a minumum amount of time to digest the PWS anyway...

The time to digest oats (which have usually been processed through a blender)
Is what???  A few minutes more?


----------



## cpush (Aug 3, 2005)

appreciate the responses!  so what I've gathered is that basically if you want to gain, take in simple carbs/sugar pwo, and if you want to lose/maintain, take in complex carbs pwo.

now my next question, are there good/bad simple carbs or sugars?  Does it matter where they come from?  Obviously an Apple or some of the better fruits would be a good source.  But is it important that I don't take in "crappy" simple sugars?  Example being my little brother's cereal...


----------



## Akkers (Aug 3, 2005)

Just buy some dextrose. Failing to get your hands on some of that, just use simple sugar. I don't understand how people can not simple carbs. I have stated numerous times on this site the benefit of a PWO shake containing 40-50g protein, 40-200g of dextrose, 5g creatine and 10-20g glutamine. Thats the only way to go I feel. Ive tried the oat/protein PWO mix (thumbs down), Ive tried just protein (huge thumbs down) and I will never ever do another weights session without drinking that PWO drink.


----------



## grant (Aug 4, 2005)

furion joe said:
			
		

> Simple carb sources digest/absorb quickly and as such cause a rapid rise in insulin levels ??? aka ???the spike.??? The result of fast digesting carb sources (post workout) is an increase in protein synthesis (provided that you take in protein pwo), the replenishment of glycogen stores/levels, and the initiation of the recovery process.
> 
> Complex carbs such as oats elicit a smaller insulin release and tend to be absorbed slower than those of the simple kind. Complex carbs are fine after training, but overall, simple carbs combined with a fast digesting protein (such as egg whites or whey protein) is an ideal way to take advantage of the pwo window of opportunity. IMO???
> 
> ...


Nicely said--I agree


----------



## grant (Aug 4, 2005)

madds said:
			
		

> Just buy some dextrose. Failing to get your hands on some of that, just use simple sugar. I don't understand how people can not simple carbs. I have stated numerous times on this site the benefit of a PWO shake containing 40-50g protein, 40-200g of dextrose, 5g creatine and 10-20g glutamine. Thats the only way to go I feel. Ive tried the oat/protein PWO mix (thumbs down), Ive tried just protein (huge thumbs down) and I will never ever do another weights session without drinking that PWO drink.


Why exactly?, do you feel your muscles are saturated with carbohydrate?  Better recovery?  Interested in hearing the differences


----------



## furion joe (Aug 4, 2005)

grant said:
			
		

> Nicely said--I agree



Thanks, I appreciate that!    





			
				grant said:
			
		

> Why exactly?, do you feel your muscles are saturated with carbohydrate?  Better recovery?  Interested in hearing the differences



I know this question wasn???t directed at me but I would like to take the opportunity to respond by giving my account of how I arrived at my current method of pwo nutrition.

Trough trial and error, I have found that a pwo meal is better for me in terms of recovery and I think that???s a very important variable in my bodybuilding program.  Recuperation, IMHO, is just as important as training and nutrition.

Early on, I used to use tuna, brown rice, and broccoli for my pwo meal.  Little did I know about pwo nutrition at the time, but I did get very good results from this practice.  

Well, I changed up on what I was doing because I heard about what everyone else was doing and my understanding of pwo nutrition was evolving - I wanted to try something new.  I started using maltodextrin/dextrose and a casein based protein powder pwo; this too, yielded good results.  Further along in my nutritional ???understanding??? I switched to whey protein powder and maltodextrin/dextrose and found that I received similar results.  The only problem with this approach was that I felt bloated and mild stomach discomfort for an hour or so after I consumed my pwo shake.  This problem was actually two-fold: First, the bloat killed my appetite and the ability to eat another meal within an hour or two after working out; Second (which was the turning point), I still felt drained from training after consuming the pwo shake; it did nothing for my ability to recuperate after working out.  

Even though this method wasn't optimal, I followed this type of pwo nutrition for a long time because it was supposed to yield the ???best results.??? Things changed after I read an article by Chris Aceto.  A few months ago in Muscle and Fitness, he had written an article about ???Muscle Meals.???  One of the meals was for pwo and it included white rice and whey.  I decided to go back to what I was doing before the shakes and tried real food again.  I noticed (almost immediately) a difference in my ability to recover pwo; within an hour of training, I felt re-energized and my body returned to a ???normal??? state, as if I just didn???t do something as physically demanding as intense weight training.  I was also hungry and able to eat an hour or so after that pwo meal.  

Every-body responds differently so it???s always a good idea to experiment.


----------



## furion joe (Aug 4, 2005)

cpush said:
			
		

> now my next question, are there good/bad simple carbs or sugars?  Does it matter where they come from?  Obviously an Apple or some of the better fruits would be a good source.  But is it important that I don't take in "crappy" simple sugars?  Example being my little brother's cereal...



Here are a few examples to get you started; check around (research) and you will find more 'simple' carb sources, those that are "suitable" for pwo nutrition.    

Fruit juice; white bread; rice cakes; cream of rice cereal; white rice (instant/quick cooking).


----------



## cpush (Aug 4, 2005)

thanks guys, great info!  Now I'm going to throw another one at you.  Since I'm not a serious BB I don't drink shakes or powder.  Usually after a workout I shower, then eat.  Is it ok if I wait this long if I'm not looking to build mass?  I usually plan my workout so my meal afterward falls into the 3-3.5 hr schedule with my other six meals.  Should I still be concerned with the contents of this meal if it is not IMMEDIATELY after the workout?  This is usually my fourth meal of the day and is consumed approx. 30 minutes after the workout.

ps since no powder; I have no whey. what would be a good (food)protein alternative pwo?


----------



## ReelBigFish (Aug 4, 2005)

I would say the sooner the better, but you should be ok to shower first. As far as food to replace protien powder, I would say egg whites are #1. They are quick absorbing, the most bioavailable protein of all. And when cooked with some cinnamon and Splenda sprinkled on top at the end.mmmmmmm...good.


----------



## grant (Aug 4, 2005)

cpush said:
			
		

> thanks guys, great info! Now I'm going to throw another one at you. Since I'm not a serious BB I don't drink shakes or powder. Usually after a workout I shower, then eat. Is it ok if I wait this long if I'm not looking to build mass? I usually plan my workout so my meal afterward falls into the 3-3.5 hr schedule with my other six meals. Should I still be concerned with the contents of this meal if it is not IMMEDIATELY after the workout? This is usually my fourth meal of the day and is consumed approx. 30 minutes after the workout.
> 
> ps since no powder; I have no whey. what would be a good (food)protein alternative pwo?


1/2 to 1 hour after your workout is best


Egg whites


----------



## cpush (Aug 4, 2005)

sweet, eggwhites I can do.  I'll just have to move them to this meal from breakfast, 10 whites would = unhappy co-workers if you know what I mean   .  Tuna for breakfast.


----------



## LAM (Aug 4, 2005)

The Monkey Man said:
			
		

> Your body takes a minumum amount of time to digest the PWS anyway...
> 
> The time to digest oats (which have usually been processed through a blender)
> Is what???  A few minutes more?



actually oats vs glucose bases sugars would be close to 30 minutes + vs seconds/minutes

for me it's oats/fruit when cutting.  when bulking dextrose and/or maltodextrin & fruit


----------



## grant (Aug 4, 2005)

furion joe said:
			
		

> Thanks, I appreciate that!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for you response.  Quite honestly, your experience has been very similar to my own in that I get better results with a balanced meal over anything like malto or even say a banana.

Aceto has some good stuff, ever read any of his books?


----------



## Tough Old Man (Aug 4, 2005)

PWO SHAKE.....You can blend the oats and that will actually make them a faster acting oat. This is true and if I can find the study on it, i'll post it. You could add a litlle maltodexrin (25g) and a banana if cutting to help. If Bulking do like Lam said and also use Dextrose. 

Here's a good PWO shake if cutting

25 grams Maltrodextrin
60 grams blended oats
1 banana
2 scoops whey
Water
approx 99 grams Carbs, 52 grams Protein and 7.5 grams Fat...About 670 cals


----------



## CowPimp (Aug 4, 2005)

I always use oats.  I never noticed much of a difference, if any, when using simple carb sources.  Feel free to give it a try though, because many people have excellent results.


----------



## furion joe (Aug 5, 2005)

grant said:
			
		

> Thanks for you response.  Quite honestly, your experience has been very similar to my own in that I get better results with a balanced meal over anything like malto or even say a banana.
> 
> Aceto has some good stuff, ever read any of his books?



You're quite welcome (thanks for hearing me out), sometimes I think it helps to share experiences so that others may benefit from the outcomes or lack there of...rather than just saying do this or do that.  

Yeah, Aceto does have some good stuff doesn't he?  Right now I am reading - Everything You Need To Know About Fat Loss - and it's an excellent source of quality information, I highly recommend it to anyone who is serious about improving his or her knowledge of nutrition.  I'm only on chapter four and I've had to re-read several pages because it's so detailed...to me anyway.  Everything makes perfect sense though.      

His work has influenced the way I think about and approach nutrition; I have put his basic ideas into practice and I've received very good results.  Case in point: using a mod pro/high carb/low fat diet (to gain mass), which doesn't seem to be favorable nowadays with many bodybuilders, yet it works great for me. 

How about you, have you read anything by Aceto?  Any recommendations for his books or others?


----------



## grant (Aug 5, 2005)

I've read Championship Bodybuilding (by Aceto) a good all around reference.

 As for nutrition and even training I've found some of the discussions on here as well as @ Avant great sources of information. There's a ton of info on a variety of topics everywhere on the net, simply because I think bodybuilders can be an isolated breed in some places.

  I actually have his wife's cookbook too.


----------



## thajeepster (Aug 5, 2005)

has anyone read "Understanding Bodybuilding, Training and Nutrition" by aceto?  Would you recommend it?


----------



## furion joe (Aug 6, 2005)

grant said:
			
		

> I've read Championship Bodybuilding (by Aceto) a good all around reference.
> 
> As for nutrition and even training I've found some of the discussions on here as well as @ Avant great sources of information. There's a ton of info on a variety of topics everywhere on the net, simply because I think bodybuilders can be an isolated breed in some places.



Cool, thanks.  I???m probably gonna check out all his books.  One at a time is fine for right now.  There is so much quality information on the net, especially here and at some other boards including Avant Labs.  And you???re right, it???s always good to browse around.  





			
				grant said:
			
		

> I actually have his wife's cookbook too.



That hurts man!      





			
				thajeepster said:
			
		

> has anyone read "Understanding Bodybuilding, Training and Nutrition" by aceto?  Would you recommend it?



I haven???t read it yet, but I will.  Get the book if you want; it???s a small price to pay for adding to your base of bodybuilding knowledge.


----------



## thajeepster (Aug 6, 2005)

furion joe said:
			
		

> I haven???t read it yet, but I will.  Get the book if you want; it???s a small price to pay for adding to your base of bodybuilding knowledge.



i agree... i havent really come across anything that wasnt useful... its always great to get info from a wide variety of sources.


----------



## ricky_rocket (Aug 7, 2005)

Doublebase said:
			
		

> I do oats and a scoop of protein.


Me too. I mix it in a blender as part of my protein shake. That's the only way I can stand oats - as powder.


----------



## thajeepster (Aug 7, 2005)

I actually use gerber babyfood rice cereal pwo, its already preground, very low in fiber, and im sure its acually pretty high in gi.  I also toss in a banana and 1.5 scoops whey.  comes out to around 85c/40p/4f... pretty good numbers for pwo.  Plus that stuff really thickens up the shake and makes it really great.


----------



## juggernaut (Aug 10, 2005)

cpush said:
			
		

> appreciate the responses! so what I've gathered is that basically if you want to gain, take in simple carbs/sugar pwo, and if you want to lose/maintain, take in complex carbs pwo.
> 
> now my next question, are there good/bad simple carbs or sugars? Does it matter where they come from? Obviously an Apple or some of the better fruits would be a good source. But is it important that I don't take in "crappy" simple sugars? Example being my little brother's cereal...


hold on a sec: here's my take;
I am in the middle of a cutting phase for a contest. I do this and have had great success with it. Right after I workout, I take in a tbsp of dextro and a tbsp of malto, with 50g of whey. Shortly after that (about an hour later) I'll take in another 25g of whey and 1 cup of Old Fashioned oats with some flax mixed in for good measure. This works for me and I am only allowed 3 carb meals per day-an apple and some protein at 4am for quick energy before my workout, my above mentioned pw drink and the one hour later meal. I have lost an average of 1.5 to 2 lbs a week, and my strength is keeping up with the diet.


----------



## Akkers (Aug 10, 2005)

juggernaut said:
			
		

> Right after I workout, I take in a tbsp of dextro and a tbsp of malto, with 50g of whey.



Is that it? When on a cut, you need to consume the vast majority of your carbs at bereakfast and PWO. Breakfast should consist of complex, low GI carbs, and PWO should consist of simple carbs, like dextrose.


----------



## juggernaut (Aug 11, 2005)

my strength has not diminished in the least-nor have I stopped losing at least lb to a lb and a half per week. This works. When it doesnt, then I readjust. It works for em and I hate to be cliche, but everyones body is different. Besides, I am extremely endomorphic.


----------



## grant (Aug 11, 2005)

juggernaut said:
			
		

> hold on a sec: here's my take;
> I am in the middle of a cutting phase for a contest. I do this and have had great success with it. Right after I workout, I take in a tbsp of dextro and a tbsp of malto, with 50g of whey. Shortly after that (about an hour later) I'll take in another 25g of whey and 1 cup of Old Fashioned oats with some flax mixed in for good measure. This works for me and I am only allowed 3 carb meals per day-an apple and some protein at 4am for quick energy before my workout, my above mentioned pw drink and the one hour later meal. I have lost an average of 1.5 to 2 lbs a week, and my strength is keeping up with the diet.


That's great, how long are you into your cut?

And how many carbs are in 1 tbsp malt and 1 tbsp dext?

Thanks


----------



## juggernaut (Aug 11, 2005)

I have been dieting since May and my show is in October. I SERIOUSLY miss pizza and Dunkin Donuts chocolate chip muffins. I dont  allow myself to eat those two things becuase if I do-it's allllll over. I am starting to see the ab wall sections.


----------



## juggernaut (Aug 11, 2005)

grant said:
			
		

> And how many carbs are in 1 tbsp malt and 1 tbsp dext?
> 
> Thanks


 I believe there's about 25-30g in the total of what i take in.


----------



## juggernaut (Aug 11, 2005)

i know it goes against what conventional wisdom states-that you should be taking in .5g of your bodyweight but i honestly dont think that during a cut cycle you need all the carbs in the world. Especially since I refeed on the weekend.


----------

