# Gun Control Stupidity



## bio-chem (Apr 15, 2013)

New York's assault weapon registration begins | ksl.com

"New York's new gun restrictions, the first in the nation passed following December's massacre at a Connecticut elementary school, limit state gun owners to no more than seven bullets in magazines,* except at competitions or firing ranges*."

So in my home defending my family where capacity really might make a difference it's now illegal in New York State to carry more than 7 rounds in your magazine. Who exactly are the idiots in charge of New York trying to protect? The Criminals?

this is the most fundamentally flawed line of reasoning i've yet seen on this issue, and yet somehow new yorkers are swallowing this shit.


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## Zaphod (Apr 15, 2013)

We are living in interesting times, and they will more than likely get to be more interesting very soon.  

The law makers clearly have never had to worry about personal safety and security.  You show me one person who cursed themselves for carrying too much ammo after a gun fight and I'll show you someone who wasn't actually in a gun fight.  

It's all about control.  Disarm the people and you control them.


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## bio-chem (Apr 15, 2013)

The thing that bothers me is that the people are allowing themselves to be placed in a situation that they can be controlled from. It's like they are volunteering for this state of servitude and reliance upon a controlling government.


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## Miss Springsteen (Apr 15, 2013)

I swear Im sick of all this gun control bullshit. There is more important shit to worry about...like the price of gas 


Fuck the government


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## ctr10 (Apr 15, 2013)

Democrats have been waiting a long time for a Sandy Hook incident so they the can try and take away our right to bear arms


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## ALBOB (Apr 15, 2013)

I own three "high capacity" .45 ACP handguns.  Two are competition guns, the third is my everyday carry gun.  I'm rather curious how the boys in blue think they could enforce this law?


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## HFO3 (Apr 15, 2013)

Miss Springsteen said:


> I swear Im sick of all this gun control bullshit. There is more important shit to worry about...like the price of gas
> 
> 
> Fuck the government



INFLATION is a great topic!  How about the rising cost of food.

I 2nd that...the government is doing exactly what they have  been bought to do, I mean get payed to do, yeah right. They squeeze the middle class in to poverty and rule with fear, lies and manipulation...


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## jagbender (Apr 15, 2013)

I don't get all the outcry about the PATRIOT act and SOPA, since the Internet didn't exist in 1776. The 1st Amendment only protects print media, so all other channels of media like TV and internet news are subject to government censure & prohibition. There were no iPhones in 1776 either, so lets add in a background check requirement in order to purchase an internet-capable cell phone.


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## jagbender (Apr 15, 2013)

Mark Levin Destroys Lefts 2nd Amendment Argument Against Semi Autos - YouTube


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## jagbender (Apr 15, 2013)

George Will destroys Joe Klein's Gun Control Argument - YouTube


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## jagbender (Apr 15, 2013)

-= 40 GREAT REASONS FOR GUN CONTROL =-

 1. Banning guns works, which is why New York, Los Angeles, DC, & Chicago cops need guns.

 2. Washington DC's low murder rate of 69 per 100,000 is due to strict gun control, and Indianapolis' high murder rate of 9 per 100,000 is due to the lack of gun control.

 3. Statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control but statistics showing increasing murder rates after gun control are "just statistics."

 4. The Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban, both of which went into effect in 1994 are responsible for the decrease in violent crime rates, which have been declining since 1991.

 5. We must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear of such a lunatic is paranoid.

 6. The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals.

 7. An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you.

 8. A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.

 9. When confronted by violent criminals, you should "put up no defense -- give them what they want, or run" (Handgun Control Inc. Chairman Pete Shields, 'Guns Don't Die - People Do', 1981, p.125).

 10. The New England Journal of Medicine is filled with expert advice about guns; just like Guns & Ammo has some excellent articles on heart surgery.

 11. One should consult an automotive engineer for safer seatbelts, a civil engineer for a better bridge, a surgeon for internal medicine, a computer programmer for software problems... but firearms experts "don't really know what they're talking about" and we should instead turn to Sarah Brady for the real deal.

 12. The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1787, refers to the National Guard, which was created by an act of Congress 130 years later in 1917.

 13. The National Guard, federally funded, with bases on federal land, using federally-owned weapons, vehicles, buildings and uniforms, punishing trespassers under federal law, is a "state" militia.

 14. In these phrases; "right of the PEOPLE peaceably to assemble," "right of the PEOPLE to be secure in their homes," "enumerations herein of certain rights shall not be construed to disparage others retained by the PEOPLE," and "The powers not delegated herein are reserved to the states respectively, and to the PEOPLE", the word "PEOPLE" all refer to individuals, but "the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arm" refers to the state.

 15. "The Constitution is strong and will never change." But we should ban and seize all guns thereby violating the 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendments to that Constitution.

 16. Rifles and handguns aren't necessary to national defense! Of course, that explains why the army has hundreds of thousands of them.

 17. Private citizens shouldn't have handguns, because they aren't "military weapons", but private citizens shouldn't have "assault rifles", because they.... ARE military weapons?

 18. In spite of waiting periods, background checks, finger printing, government forms, etc., guns today are too readily available, which is responsible for recent school shootings. In the 1940's, 1950's and1960's, anyone could buy guns at hardware stores, army surplus stores, gas stations, variety stores, Sears mail order, no waiting, no background check, no fingerprints, no government forms and there were no school shootings.

 19. The NRA's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign about kids handling guns is propaganda, but the anti-gun lobby's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign is responsible social activity.

 20. Guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use them properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy.

 21. A handgun, with as many as 4 controls, is far too complex for the typical adult to learn to use, as opposed to, say, an automobile that only has about 20.

 22. Women are just as intelligent and capable as men but a woman with a gun is "an accident waiting to happen" and gun makers' advertisements aimed at women are "preying on their fears."

 23. Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering psychopaths, but revert to back normal when the weapon is removed.

 24. Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass killings at gun shows, gun stores, shooting ranges, police academies, army boot camps, and firearm factories.

 25. A majority of the population supports gun control, just like a majority of the population supported owning slaves.

 26. Any self-loading small arm can legitimately be considered to be a "weapon of mass destruction" or an "assault weapon."

 27. Most people CAN'T be trusted, so we should have laws against guns, which most people will abide by, because they CAN be trusted.

 28. The right of Internet pornographers to exist cannot be questioned because it is constitutionally protected by the Bill of Rights, but the use of handguns for self defense is not REALLY protected by the Bill of Rights.

 29. Free speech entitles one to own newspapers, cell phones, computers, etc., and they should be protected by the first amendment.  After all, as technology marches forward, the Constitution should evolve and adapt!! But the 2nd amendment only covers muskets.

 30. The ACLU is good because it uncompromisingly defends certain parts of the Constitution, and the NRA is bad, because it uncompromisingly defends certain parts of the Constitution.

 31. Charlton Heston, a movie actor as president of the NRA is a cheap lunatic who should be ignored, but Michael Douglas, a movie actor as a representative of Handgun Control, Inc. is an ambassador for peace who is entitled to an audience at the UN arms control summit.

 32. Police operate with backup within groups, which is why they need larger capacity pistol magazines. However, "Civilians" must face criminals alone and therefore need less ammunition.

 33. We should ban "Saturday Night Specials" and other inexpensive guns because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too.

 34. Police officers have some special Jedi-like mastery over handguns that private citizens can never hope to attain.

 35. Private citizens don't need a gun for self-protection because the police are there to protect them, even though the Supreme Court says the police are NOT responsible for their protection.

 36. Citizens don't need to carry a gun for personal protection but police chiefs, who are desk-bound administrators that work in a building FULL of armed cops, need a handgun.

 37. "Assault weapons" have no purpose other than to kill large numbers of people. The police need assault weapons. You do not.

 38. When Microsoft pressures its distributors to give Microsoft preferential promotion, that's bad; but when the Federal government pressures cities to buy guns only from Smith & Wesson, that's good.

 39. Trigger locks do not interfere with the ability to use a gun for defensive purposes, which is why you see police officers carrying duty weapons equipped with trigger locks.

 40. Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "keep guns out of the wrong hands." So who has the "wrong hands"??  Take a look at your own.  *YOU* have the wrong hands.


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## bio-chem (Apr 15, 2013)

the only argument for gun control is emotional, not factual. emotionally i'm like everyone else who argues for gun control. I wish there was some form of legislation we could pass that could protect ourselves from these insane and evil acts like what happened at Sandy Hook. Logically, however I realize that nothing proposed nationally or on a state wide basis recently will accomplish that goal. The people in New York are just as susceptible, if not more so now to a Sandy Hook type massacre than before these laws were passed. On top of that they are even less able to defend themselves from their own government if the government become tyrannical. Exactly what the 2nd amendment was designed to protect. it's sad


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## LAM (Apr 15, 2013)

ctr10 said:


> Democrats have been waiting a long time for a Sandy Hook incident so they the can try and take away our right to bear arms



nothing but red hearings to distract the sheep since the war in the middle east has been drawn down.  they have to keep some conflicts going in the media to distract the people.  the NRA is way to powerful, which is why there has been no major permanent legislation passed since the Brady Bill.


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## bio-chem (Apr 15, 2013)

LAM said:


> nothing but red hearings to distract the sheep since the war in the middle east has been drawn down.  they have to keep some conflicts going in the media to distract the people.  the NRA is way to powerful, which is why there has been no major permanent legislation passed since the Brady Bill.



Until now. This is the first time you are seeing such strong anti-legislation on the State level. Up until now the NRA has been able to get positive measures passed at the state level. Things are going the wrong way now in New York, Connecticut, Colorado, and Maryland to name a few


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## bio-chem (Apr 15, 2013)

Can anyone please attempt to explain to me how a 7 round magazine will make them safer than a 10 round magazine in their Glock? Preferably someone from any of the states passing these stronger gun control laws. I promise to be respectful in my response. I'm seriously trying to imagine a single person who can objectively look at their government and support these laws with a true belief that they can sleep safer at night because their elected officials made these laws.

Anyone care to take up this point to help me understand?


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## cshea2 (Apr 15, 2013)

People in big cities do not carry guns, the cities are relatively safe you just need to use common sense; like don't go to Central Park at night, or don't walk through Spanish Harlem if your not from that area. The gun bans don't have much effect on city folk because the people who are armed are sketchy criminals who don't obtain them legally anyway. The average liberal in NYC or Boston probably thinks gun owners are psycho, unstable people which is held by most Canadians, Europeans, etc. I know very smart, well-adjusted people who are doctors, engineers, lawyers, accountants etc. who are law-abiding gun owners, but they live in more rural areas. Honestly the only people I know who have guns in Boston or NYC are Law enforcement or ex-military, there's just not a lot of gun enthusiasts in the North east. Lol at these measures to try and stop mass shootings, there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop these horrible events from taking place. There are people out there who think it is just as easy as banning guns, but these people are morons. There is way too many guns out there for that. 

...There were explosions at the Boston marathon today, so maybe it's time to get a gun


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## bio-chem (Apr 15, 2013)

cshea2 said:


> People in big cities do not carry guns, the cities are relatively safe you just need to use common sense; like don't go to Central Park at night, or don't walk through Spanish Harlem if your not from that area. The gun bans don't have much effect on city folk because the people who are armed are sketchy criminals who don't obtain them legally anyway. The average liberal in NYC or Boston probably thinks gun owners are psycho, unstable people which is held by most Canadians, Europeans, etc. I know very smart, well-adjusted people who are doctors, engineers, lawyers, accountants etc. who are law-abiding gun owners, but they live in more rural areas. Honestly the only people I know who have guns in Boston or NYC are Law enforcement or ex-military, there's just not a lot of gun enthusiasts in the North east. Lol at these measures to try and stop mass shootings, there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop these horrible events from taking place. There are people out there who think it is just as easy as banning guns, but these people are morons. There is way too many guns out there for that.
> 
> ...There were explosions at the Boston marathon today, so maybe it's time to get a gun



And the rest of the people in New York who live outside of the city and actually have a brain are punished for New York City residents apathy. damn


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## cshea2 (Apr 15, 2013)

There is plenty of apathy in the Northeast man just the way it is. Part of living next to so many damn people...


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## LAM (Apr 16, 2013)

cshea2 said:


> People in big cities do not carry guns, the cities are relatively safe you just need to use common sense; like don't go to Central Park at night, or don't walk through Spanish Harlem if your not from that area. The gun bans don't have much effect on city folk because the people who are armed are sketchy criminals who don't obtain them legally anyway. The average liberal in NYC or Boston probably thinks gun owners are psycho, unstable people which is held by most Canadians, Europeans, etc. I know very smart, well-adjusted people who are doctors, engineers, lawyers, accountants etc. who are law-abiding gun owners, but they live in more rural areas. Honestly the only people I know who have guns in Boston or NYC are Law enforcement or ex-military, there's just not a lot of gun enthusiasts in the North east. Lol at these measures to try and stop mass shootings, there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop these horrible events from taking place. There are people out there who think it is just as easy as banning guns, but these people are morons. There is way too many guns out there for that.
> 
> ...There were explosions at the Boston marathon today, so maybe it's time to get a gun



actually being from the North East I can attest to the large number of gun owners there but mostly rifles, shutguns for hunting.  not a lot in the way of handguns.

then you have to look at the economics, the NE is the wealthiest part of the country so overall violent crime is lower than in many other states and metros.  regardless of the area the data clearly shows that the overwhelming majority of violent crime occurs between people that are familiar with each other, roughly 70%.


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## Zaphod (Apr 16, 2013)

I've been asking some of the gun control nuts that if I get rid of all my guns and someone hurts or violates my family are they willing to pay for the wood chipper rental so I can throw their family into it in front of them for leaving me and my family vulnerable.  So far no takers.  

A childhood friend's place was broken into and she's had several drunks pounding on the wrong door trying to get in.  I suggested she arm herself with at least a Remington 870 in the 20 gauge variety.  One of her bible thumper friends said she wouldn't want to take the life of another person.  My reply was that there is no moral superiority to being a victim and which would be worse, killing someone trying to harm her and her son or that person kill or harm one or both of them.


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## bio-chem (Apr 16, 2013)

More gun control stupidity:
Kerry: Foreign students ‘scared’ of guns in U.S. – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs 

We should give up the 2nd amendment so more Japanese students will study at our universities? Really Kerry, you've got to be able to scrounge up something more believable than that?


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## Zaphod (Apr 16, 2013)

If their education system is better than ours then why would they want to study here?


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## bio-chem (Apr 16, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> If their education system is better than ours then why would they want to study here?



it's not. that's why all the world comes here to study at our universities.

My concern is that libtards like kerry would even insinuate we should compromise our basic rights to make non-US citizens feel comfortable somehow. Geez. How much further can we extend this lunacy? I don't go to England and demand my laws be placed in force. Amanda Knox didn't get the protection of our laws in Italy. 

Kerry is asking us to give up our sovereignty in order to make foreign students feel comfortable? WTH? Should we impose Sharia Law so that Al Queda feels more comfortable here?


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## LAM (Apr 16, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> it's not. that's why all the world comes here to study at our universities.
> 
> My concern is that libtards like kerry would even insinuate we should compromise our basic rights to make non-US citizens feel comfortable somehow. Geez. How much further can we extend this lunacy? I don't go to England and demand my laws be placed in force. Amanda Knox didn't get the protection of our laws in Italy.
> 
> Kerry is asking us to give up our sovereignty in order to make foreign students feel comfortable? WTH? Should we impose Sharia Law so that Al Queda feels more comfortable here?



"your" version of how the US should be is in direct contrast with those with all of the wealth because to them it's all business.

http://www.spp-psp.gc.ca/eic/site/spp-psp.nsf/vwapj/Report-Rappport-Ju2005.pdf/$file/Report-Rappport-Ju2005.pdf


http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RS22701_20100122.pdf


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## bio-chem (Apr 16, 2013)

LAM said:


> "your" version of how the US should be is in direct contrast with those with all of the wealth because to them it's all business.
> 
> http://www.spp-psp.gc.ca/eic/site/spp-psp.nsf/vwapj/Report-Rappport-Ju2005.pdf/$file/Report-Rappport-Ju2005.pdf
> 
> ...


And this has what to do with the price of tea in China? For God's sake dude. keep on topic.


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## LAM (Apr 16, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> And this has what to do with the price of tea in China? For God's sake dude. keep on topic.



because the US now operates like a business park and less like a country that is concerned with the general population every decade.  there is a global shift in GDP coming in 1-2 decades way from the english speaking western country's and to south east asia and africa.  the current global GDP split is about 80% to the west and 20% to the rest of the word.  eventually according to the folks at the world bank who have been talking about this for over a decade those numbers will change to 35% and 65%.   so just think about that for a minute and let it sink in.  if US GDP was cut by 50% and the top 1-30% of earners still took home the majority of the nations income at 70% of the national income what does that leave for the rest?

the merging of the US, Mexico and Canada into "one" basic trade zone with similar laws, environment standards, labor laws, currency, etc. will be optimum for the capitalists, large firms and MNEs.

so that's why it's relevant.  US lawmakers are making policy changes today for "that" North America and it's not going to be a pretty picture.


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## bio-chem (Apr 17, 2013)

LAM said:


> because the US now operates like a business park and less like a country that is concerned with the general population every decade.  there is a global shift in GDP coming in 1-2 decades way from the english speaking western country's and to south east asia and africa.  the current global GDP split is about 80% to the west and 20% to the rest of the word.  eventually according to the folks at the world bank who have been talking about this for over a decade those numbers will change to 35% and 65%.   so just think about that for a minute and let it sink in.  if US GDP was cut by 50% and the top 1-30% of earners still took home the majority of the nations income at 70% of the national income what does that leave for the rest?
> 
> the merging of the US, Mexico and Canada into "one" basic trade zone with similar laws, environment standards, labor laws, currency, etc. will be optimum for the capitalists, large firms and MNEs.
> 
> so that's why it's relevant.  US lawmakers are making policy changes today for "that" North America and it's not going to be a pretty picture.



Ok, last time. Please keep this shit out of my thread. You didn't say gun once in your post in a thread entirely about guns. If you want to continue pushing your marxist propaganda please do it somewhere else.


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## jay_steel (Apr 17, 2013)

ALBOB said:


> I own three "high capacity" .45 ACP handguns.  Two are competition guns, the third is my everyday carry gun.  I'm rather curious how the boys in blue think they could enforce this law?



they cant really enforce it, but if you get pulled over with them then your screwed. Its kind of a i have it nothing will happen unless im an idiot type of thing.


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## jay_steel (Apr 17, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> I've been asking some of the gun control nuts that if I get rid of all my guns and someone hurts or violates my family are they willing to pay for the wood chipper rental so I can throw their family into it in front of them for leaving me and my family vulnerable.  So far no takers.
> 
> A childhood friend's place was broken into and she's had several drunks pounding on the wrong door trying to get in.  I suggested she arm herself with at least a Remington 870 in the 20 gauge variety.  One of her bible thumper friends said she wouldn't want to take the life of another person.  My reply was that there is no moral superiority to being a victim and which would be worse, killing someone trying to harm her and her son or that person kill or harm one or both of them.



My opinion is they took their own lives. I have my warning sign that states my home is protected by the NRA. The second they break in they are committing suicide.


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## jay_steel (Apr 17, 2013)

LAM said:


> because the US now operates like a business park and less like a country that is concerned with the general population every decade.  there is a global shift in GDP coming in 1-2 decades way from the english speaking western country's and to south east asia and africa.  the current global GDP split is about 80% to the west and 20% to the rest of the word.  eventually according to the folks at the world bank who have been talking about this for over a decade those numbers will change to 35% and 65%.   so just think about that for a minute and let it sink in.  if US GDP was cut by 50% and the top 1-30% of earners still took home the majority of the nations income at 70% of the national income what does that leave for the rest?
> 
> the merging of the US, Mexico and Canada into "one" basic trade zone with similar laws, environment standards, labor laws, currency, etc. will be optimum for the capitalists, large firms and MNEs.
> 
> so that's why it's relevant.  US lawmakers are making policy changes today for "that" North America and it's not going to be a pretty picture.



I just read this and still waiting to read some thing about gun?  (trade, labor, environment, currency?) no guns?


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## LAM (Apr 17, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> Ok, last time. Please keep this shit out of my thread. You didn't say gun once in your post in a thread entirely about guns. If you want to continue pushing your marxist propaganda please do it somewhere else.



so reciting known documented history is now Marxist propaganda?  LOL...your about stuck on stupid no wonder you can't figure anything out and have zero comprehension on how the US economy functions.


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## jay_steel (Apr 17, 2013)

the only thing that will make LAM happy is no currency and full gov't control of food, they will control the time we eat the wages we make so no one is rich and what we consume. There will be no motivated engineers or developers because who cares to discover the next big thing if the guy who bitches about having a minimum education, minimum experience, minimum work ethic wants to make more then minimum wage.


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## bio-chem (Apr 17, 2013)

LAM said:


> so reciting known documented history is now Marxist propaganda?  LOL...your about stuck on stupid no wonder you can't figure anything out.



Again, you fucking moron. This is about guns. not anything else. I started this thread for a purpose, and you can't stay anywhere close to being on topic. Do not come back to this thread. Post your shit in other threads started by other people for any other topic. I really couldn't care where, just not here. 

Obviously it's a free country, and an open internet, but if you have any sense of propriety you will realize I want to keep this discussion centered on the topic I chose, and not your worthless to the topic BS you feel an unholy obligation of posting. 

I hope to only see you in other threads from now on. Thank you for your cooperation.


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## jay_steel (Apr 17, 2013)

Azza to the mods is like that sick little puppy that they know they should just shoot in the head because its missing an eye and retarded but they just cant seem to finish him off. So they just kind of feed him and string him along.


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## jay_steel (Apr 17, 2013)

^ wrong thread  but ill keep it any ways.


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## bio-chem (Apr 17, 2013)

jay_steel said:


> the only thing that will make LAM happy is no currency and full gov't control of food, they will control the time we eat the wages we make so no one is rich and what we consume. There will be no motivated engineers or developers because who cares to discover the next big thing if the guy who bitches about having a minimum education, minimum experience, minimum work ethic wants to make more then minimum wage.



I get that same impression. 

I want this thread to be about guns, about a love of shooting guns and keeping our right to bear arms sufficiently protected so that red blooded meat eating Americans who aren't pussified by political correctness don't lose more of their rights to the thought police


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## bio-chem (Apr 17, 2013)

Senate rejects expanded gun background checks - CNN.com 

Damn that was close. I need to contact my senators and let them know i'm happy with their votes. then contact the senators from my home state and bitch till they listen.

Too close:*The final vote was 54 in favor to 46 opposed with four Republicans joining most Democrats in supporting the compromise. With the outcome obvious, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nevada, cast a "no" vote to secure the ability to bring the measure up again.*


At least this one was still royally put down: *On the proposal by Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California to update a 1994 ban on semi-automatic weapons that expired in 2004, the vote was 40-60, showing opposition by several Democrats as well as the chamber's Republican minority.*


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## Ichigo (Apr 17, 2013)

[h=1][/h][h=1]Gun controlbumma?s biggest loss[/h]http://www.politico.com/story/2013/04/gun-control-vote-obamas-biggest-loss-90244.html?hp=t1_3

 			By REID J. EPSTEIN and GLENN THRUSH | 4/17/13 7:52 PM EDT  		
 		  		 			 				 				Never before had President Barack Obama put the moral force and  political muscle of his presidency behind an issue quite this big ? and  lost quite this badly.
The president, shaken to the core by the  massacre of 26 innocents at Sandy Hook Elementary School, broke his own  informal ?Obama Rule? ? of never leaning into an issue without a clear  path to victory ? first by pushing for a massive gun control package no  one expected to pass, and then sticking through it even as he retrenched  to a relatively modest bipartisan bill mandating national background  checks on gun purchases.
Continue Reading 
	  It was a bitter defeat for a president accustomed to  winning, a second-term downer that may ? or may not ? foreshadow the  slow decline suffered by so many of his predecessors. Obama seems to  have the public behind him, but it illustrated his less-than-Johnsonian  powers of personal persuasion, the possible shortcomings of his decision  to wait a month after the killings to present a plan and above all the  limits of his go-to ?outside? strategy of taking his case directly to  the American people.
 (Also on POLITICO: Obama laments "shameful day")
 More than anything, it was an emotional blow to Obama, who was as  irritated at the four members of his own party as he was at the 90  percent of Republicans who defeated the bill.
 One administration official told POLITICO the White House was  especially disappointed with Sen. Heidi Heitkamp (D-N.D), the only  dissenting Democrat not up for re-election next year, who refused to go  along with the bill even after White House chief of staff Denis  McDonough visited her office to make Obama?s case on Tuesday.
 Still, officials believed Heitkamp would have flipped if they had gotten closer to the 60 votes they needed.
 ?The president was tremendously committed and emotionally engaged. I  watched the president with these families. He was there for them and  really felt it,? said Sen. Richard Blumenthal, a Connecticut Democrat  who worked closely with the White House in the aftermath of the worst  school shooting in the history of his state.
 (Also on POLITICO: Senate gun control roll call vote: Senators who bucked their party)
 ?Background checks will happen,? he added, minutes after the vote. ?This outcome is a delay, not a defeat.?
 Added Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.): ?I never saw a president fight  so hard, a vice president, never on any issue? It shows us the cowardice  of the Senate.?
 In the end, however, moderates and conservatives in the upper chamber  said they simply couldn?t deal with a flurry of progressive issues at  once ? from gay marriage to immigration to guns.
 The three Democratic ?no? votes ? Max Baucus of Montana, Mark Pryor  of Arkansas and Mark Begich ? were never really in play, sources  familiar with the situation told POLITICO.



Read the rest of the article

Gun control: Obama???s biggest loss - Reid J. Epstein and Glenn Thrush - POLITICO.com
Gun control: Obama???s biggest loss - Reid J. Epstein and Glenn Thrush - POLITICO.com


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## jagbender (Apr 18, 2013)

[h=1]Gun control backers: Senate defeat won't stop us[/h]By ALAN FRAM and DAVID ESPO | Associated Press ? 2 hrs 44 mins ago



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View PhotoFamily members of those lost in ?




View PhotoFormer Rep. Gabby Giffords is helped ?



WASHINGTON (AP) ? President Barack Obama and his gun control allies say Senate rejection of expanded background checks and other restrictions won't stop their drive to reduce firearms violence. But their path to enacting gun curbs this year seems blocked by the National Rifle Association, and supporters of restrictions appear befuddled about what it will take to push legislation through this Congress.
The Senate planned to vote Thursday on two more amendments to a gun control bill. One by Sen. John Barrasso, R-Wyo., would cut aid to state and local governments that release information on gun owners. Another by Sens. Tom Harkin, D-Iowa, and Lamar Alexander, R-Tenn., would bolster federal mental health programs.
But just four months after a gunman killed 20 children and six adults at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn., the Senate proved unwilling Wednesday to approve the key elements of President Barack Obama's response to the massacre. Lawmakers rejected broader federal background checks and bans on assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition magazines, jarring gun control backers who thought Newtown would spur Congress to act and delivering a victory for the NRA and a defeat for Obama.
"I see this as just Round One," the president said at the White House, surrounded by relatives of Newtown's victims and badly wounded former Rep. Gabrielle Giffords.
Looking ahead to the 2014 congressional elections, he added, "If this Congress refuses to listen to the American people and pass common-sense gun legislation, then the real impact is going to have to come from the voters."
Obama blamed lawmakers' fear that "the gun lobby would spend a lot of money" and accuse them of opposing the Second Amendment's right to bear arms.
But opponents of the restrictions ? which would have been the most meaningful gun curbs approved by Congress in two decades ? said the curbs were defeated because they wouldn't have worked.
Sen. Jim Inhofe, R-Okla., said most proposals were "predicated on one assumption that somehow we think that the criminal element will single out this one law to comply with."
Added Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., of the expanded background check plan, "This is the first step in the erosion of my rights under the Second Amendment."
The day was not a complete victory for the NRA. Senators defeated one GOP amendment requiring states that let people carry concealed weapons to honor other states' concealed carry permits. Also rejected was a Republican proposal letting some veterans with mental problems have firearms unless a court blocks them from getting the weapons.
But when the votes were over, it was gun control advocates who seemed most perplexed about what it would take to succeed. Though an AP-GfK poll shows support for stricter gun laws receding a bit, surveys have also shown 8 in 10 or more people backing expanded background checks.
"There's never been a bigger disconnect between where the American public is on an issue and where the Senate ended up," said Sen. Chris Murphy, D-Conn.
"Tragically, it may take more mass killings," said Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Conn.
Sen. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., who helped craft the bipartisan plan widening background checks, said he would continue talking to other senators to see whether there were changes he could make that would attract their votes. But he conceded he had no answer.
"If I knew, we wouldn't be talking because it would have passed," he told a reporter.
No. 2 Senate leader Richard Durbin, D-Ill., was among several Democrats who joined Obama in saying Wednesday's roll calls left them with an issue to take to voters.
"We're now in the world of Gabby Giffords and Mayor Bloomberg and organizations that are organized to come out and support those who vote for gun safety and oppose those who don't," he said, referring to wealthy New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who has been financing gun control efforts.
But Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky., expressed doubts.
"If it were a real effective political strategy, you wouldn't have seen a lot of Democrats from Southern states voting with Republicans today," he said. Some Western Democrats voted against restrictions as well.
NRA lobbyist Chris W. Cox thanked lawmakers for defeating the "misguided" background check expansion, saying it would have criminalized gun transactions between friends ? a charge Obama and others called untrue.
Mayors Against Illegal Guns, financed by Bloomberg, called the vote "a damning indictment" of the gun lobby's power.
Wednesday's key vote came as the Senate rejected a plan by Manchin and Sen. Patrick Toomey, R-Pa., to extend background checks ? now required for transactions involving gun dealers ? to sales at gun shows and online.
The roll call was 54-46 in favor, short of the 60 votes proponents needed. Just four Republicans voted to expand the checks while five Democrats voted no, including Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., who backed the expansion but switched his vote to give himself the right to demand a new roll call in the future.
By agreement between GOP and Democratic leaders, all amendments debated Wednesday needed 60 of the Senate's 100 votes to pass. While all failed, all received more than 50 votes but two: the proposed bans on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines.
"Show some guts," Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., the assault weapons ban sponsor, told her colleagues before the vote, knowing she would lose.
Emotions engulfed those watching the Senate as well.
When the background check amendment failed, Patricia Maisch, watching from a visitors' gallery, shouted down into the Senate chamber, "Shame on you!" Maisch helped restrain the gunman at the 2011 Tucson shooting in which six people died and 13, including Giffords, were wounded.
Also in the Capitol was Carlee Soto, younger sister of slain Sandy Hook Elementary School teacher Vicki Soto.
"We elected these people," Carlee said. "I have no idea whose voice they were speaking for today."
___
Associated Press writers Donna Cassata, Laurie Kellman, Richard Lardner and Andrew Taylor contributed to this report.


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## Zaphod (Apr 18, 2013)

Has anyone else noticed that the Newtown families are somehow always available as background dressing for the president at a moment's notice?  Call me a conspiracy theorist and I'll say guilty as charged, but after all this time I'm sure they'd have to go back to work by now.


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## LAM (Apr 18, 2013)

jay_steel said:


> the only thing that will make LAM happy is no currency and full gov't control of food, they will control the time we eat the wages we make so no one is rich and what we consume. There will be no motivated engineers or developers because who cares to discover the next big thing if the guy who bitches about having a minimum education, minimum experience, minimum work ethic wants to make more then minimum wage.



LOL at your puny radial brain, it's always absolutes to you people, if I talk out against crony capitalism then I "must" be for big government...brilliant deduction their shit for brains


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## LAM (Apr 18, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> Again, you fucking moron. This is about guns. not anything else. I started this thread for a purpose, and you can't stay anywhere close to being on topic. Do not come back to this thread. Post your shit in other threads started by other people for any other topic. I really couldn't care where, just not here.
> 
> Obviously it's a free country, and an open internet, but if you have any sense of propriety you will realize I want to keep this discussion centered on the topic I chose, and not your worthless to the topic BS you feel an unholy obligation of posting.
> 
> I hope to only see you in other threads from now on. Thank you for your cooperation.



you would be the moron that has been brainwashed by countless decades of US media propaganda.  you can't even see through their obvious bullshit by manipulating the emotions of the masses and making puppets like you dance at their whim.  you can't even take notice to *a very obvious distraction such as the gun debate* when US political history clearly shows a lack of any major reform on this topic.

LMAO!


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## jagbender (Apr 18, 2013)

People Petition to Confiscate Guns From Tea Party Supporters and Repeal the Second Amendment - YouTube


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## bio-chem (Apr 18, 2013)

^^^And people wonder why the NRA is so vigilant in throwing it's weight around in it's sphere of influence. The anti's complain about the lunatic fringe who comprises the NRA yet it's influence is obviously much stronger than it's 4 million members. Could it be that there is a large part of the voting population that while not an active rolled member of the NRA is still a staunch supporter of their political agenda? I think so. Ever vigilant


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## bio-chem (Apr 18, 2013)

Reid sets aside Senate gun legislation for now - CNN.com 

Shelving further gun legislation for now. good. now they can get back to ruining our lives in other ways. like spending more money and taxing us into poverty


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## jay_steel (Apr 18, 2013)

LAM said:


> LOL at your puny radial brain, it's always absolutes to you people, if I talk out against crony capitalism then I "must" be for big government...brilliant deduction their shit for brains



your just good at two things copy and paste....


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## bio-chem (Apr 19, 2013)

everyone be sure to write your representatives and thank them for voting this thing down. or if you are unfortunate enough to live in a state who voted for these amendments then we need to call them up and tell them their vote was noticed and will impact them in 2014.


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## bio-chem (Apr 19, 2013)

Over the weekend, we came four votes away from the United States Senate giving our Constitutional rights over to the United Nations. In a 53-46 vote, the senate narrowly passed a measure that will stop the United States from entering into the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty.
The Statement of Purpose from the bill read:
To uphold Second Amendment rights and prevent the United States from entering into the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty.
The U.N. Small Arms Treaty, which has been championed by the Obama Administration, would have effectively placed a global ban on the import and export of small firearms. The ban would have affected all private gun owners in the U.S., and had language that would have implemented an international gun registry on all private guns and ammo.
Astonishingly, 46 of our United States Senators were willing to give away our Constitutional rights to a foreign power.
Here are the 46 senators that voted to give your rights to the U.N. Notice that ALL are either Democrat or "Independent."



Baldwin (D-WI)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bennet (D-CO)
Blumenthal (D-CT)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Cardin (D-MD)
Carper (D-DE)
Casey (D-PA)
Coons (D-DE)
Cowan (D-MA)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Franken (D-MN)
Gellibrand (D-NY)
Harkin (D-IA)
Hirono (D-HI)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kaine (D-VA)
King (I-ME)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
McCaskill (D-MO)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Merkley (D-OR)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murphy (D-CT)
Murray (D-WA)
Nelson (D-FL)

People this needs to go viral. These Senators voted to let the UN take our guns. They need to lose the election. We have been betrayed. These
46 Senators Voted to Give your 2nd Amendment Constitutional Rights to the U.N.


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## Zaphod (Apr 20, 2013)

Levin is in his last term.  He's retiring after this so he won't suffer any repercussions from however he votes.


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## heavyiron (Apr 20, 2013)

I bet the cops that just took the wounded 19 year old Boston bomber into custody all fired more than seven rounds at him when they engaged. 1 threat and the kid probably had hundreds of rounds fired at him and I'm supposed to defend my family with just seven rounds.


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## Zaphod (Apr 20, 2013)

The seven round magazine capacity is for "your protection."


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## troubador (Apr 20, 2013)




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## Zaphod (Apr 20, 2013)

troubador said:


>



Not until it's convenient for the government.


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## Bowden (Apr 21, 2013)

heavyiron said:


> I bet the cops that just took the wounded 19 year old Boston bomber into custody all fired more than seven rounds at him when they engaged. 1 threat and the kid probably had hundreds of rounds fired at him and I'm supposed to defend my family with just seven rounds.



What, a pistol with a seven round capacity?
What kind of family defense situation can you see that would require more than seven rounds to deal with?
If I was that concerned as to a mass home invasion that would take more than seven rounds to deal with I would own something like a Mossberg 903 auto loader shotgun for a backup.


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## Zaphod (Apr 21, 2013)

Bowden said:


> What, a pistol with a seven round capacity?
> What kind of family defense situation can you see that would require more than seven rounds to deal with?
> If I was that concerned as to a mass home invasion that would take more than seven rounds to deal with I would own something like a Mossberg 903 auto loader shotgun for a backup.



All the people I know who have been in gun fights never cursed themselves for having magazines that held more rounds than they "needed".


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## Zaphod (Apr 21, 2013)

These two cases alone make the argument for non-reduced capacity magazines.  

GA Female Homeowner Opens Fire on Four Would be Burglars

Mother Hiding in Crawlspace With 2 Kids Shoots Intruder 5 Times


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## Bowden (Apr 21, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> All the people I know who have been in gun fights never cursed themselves for having magazines that held more rounds than they "needed".



If people think they need more than seven rounds for home defense then they may want to think about buying a tactical autoloader shotgun.
If my wife unloads on any home invaders at short range with our 903 and I unload on them with our 930 I doubt that home invaders will argue with us.
Do you?


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## sendit08 (Apr 21, 2013)

troubador said:


>



however they are all over our streets.
they are owned illegally by many criminals
how can we defend ourselves against that?


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## Zaphod (Apr 21, 2013)

Bowden said:


> If people think they need more than seven rounds for home defense then they may want to think about buying a tactical autoloader shotgun.
> If my wife unloads on any home invaders at short range with our 903 and I unload on them with our 930 I doubt that home invaders will argue with us.
> Do you?



Have you known anyone to be upset their weapons had too high capacity?  And you can indeed miss with a shotgun, contrary to popular belief.  The spread isn't wide enough to guarantee a hit.


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## heavyiron (Apr 21, 2013)

Bowden said:


> What, a pistol with a seven round capacity?
> *What kind of family defense situation can you see that would require more than seven rounds to deal with?*
> If I was that concerned as to a mass home invasion that would take more than seven rounds to deal with I would own something like a Mossberg 903 auto loader shotgun for a backup.


Pretty much any situation. 

My wife being engaged by multiple threats would be one example. A few guys break in to steal and don't want to leave a witness. 

Yeah, I own various weapons for various applications myself.


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## Bowden (Apr 21, 2013)

Zaphod said:


> Have you known anyone to be upset their weapons had too high capacity?  And you can indeed miss with a shotgun, contrary to popular belief.  The spread isn't wide enough to guarantee a hit.



I don't miss :-D


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## troubador (Apr 21, 2013)

Bowden said:


> What, a pistol with a seven round capacity?
> What kind of family defense situation can you see that would require more than seven rounds to deal with?



Potentially, anytime you have to fire your weapon. The mortality rate from handgun wounds is somewhere between 15-20% from what I've read. 7 rounds of .45ACP may not stop one attacker even if you hit him with all 7 shots.

Also, higher capacity benefits those in a unexpected defensive position more than the offender. A bad guy(s), knows he's about break into your house, has had time to prepare and could be carrying multiple magazines, flashlight, knife, etc. Plus, it's not like he cares there's a 7 round limit so he might be carrying 15-30 rounders. You, the law abiding citizen, however are asleep in your BVD's with your 7 round pistol on the bed stand. You hear him (and his buddies) break in and jump up...what do you do? Grab the gun, flashlight, toss your cellphone into your banana hammock and shove a couple extra mags up your butt?


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## DOMS (Apr 21, 2013)

troubador said:


> Potentially, anytime you have to fire your weapon. The mortality rate from handgun wounds is somewhere between 15-20% from what I've read. 7 rounds of .45ACP may not stop one attacker even if you hit him with all 7 shots.
> 
> Also, higher capacity benefits those in a unexpected defensive position more than the offender. A bad guy(s), knows he's about break into your house, has had time to prepare and could be carrying multiple magazines, flashlight, knife, etc. Plus, it's not like he cares there's a 7 round limit so he might be carrying 15-30 rounders. You, the law abiding citizen, however are asleep in your BVD's with your 7 round pistol on the bed stand. You hear him (and his buddies) break in and jump up...what do you do? Grab the gun, flashlight, toss your cellphone into your banana hammock and shove a couple extra mags up your butt?



Additionally, there may not just be _one_ of the _them_.


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## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2013)

How about the idea that we should let people chose for themselves what they want to use for a home defense scenario? Some women may not feel comfortable with a .45 cal handgun. Many people would feel under gunned with 7 rounds of 9mm and multiple intruders. If people want a shot gun, handgun, bat, bear spray, or nothing at all it is up to them. Anyone who feels confident dictating to a homeowner what should be used in home defense has lost their mind and should be put out to pasture. This is aimed towards Biden, and any who agree with him. If 7 rounds is enough for you, then fine. good for you and I hope you aren't ever put in a situation where you need an 8th, but do not try to dictate to me what I need to protect my family.


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## Bowden (Apr 21, 2013)

troubador said:


> Potentially, anytime you have to fire your weapon. The mortality rate from handgun wounds is somewhere between 15-20% from what I've read. 7 rounds of .45ACP may not stop one attacker even if you hit him with all 7 shots.
> 
> Also, higher capacity benefits those in a unexpected defensive position more than the offender. A bad guy(s), knows he's about break into your house, has had time to prepare and could be carrying multiple magazines, flashlight, knife, etc. Plus, it's not like he cares there's a 7 round limit so he might be carrying 15-30 rounders. You, the law abiding citizen, however are asleep in your BVD's with your 7 round pistol on the bed stand. You hear him (and his buddies) break in and jump up...what do you do? Grab the gun, flashlight, toss your cellphone into your banana hammock and shove a couple extra mags up your butt?



All of that or if you are like me and don't have kids to worry about defending is that you play it smart, grab the pistol , point it at the door use the bed as a shield between you and the door and call the cops on your cell phone.
What you don't do when you hear them break in is wander through the house in the dark looking for them and put yourself in a highly compromised vulnerable position.

A 20 gauge shotgun loaded with #4 buckshot is a better weapon for home defense than a handgun IMO.
One shot fired from a 20 gauge at close range carries the same force of being hit at the same time with 2 .44 magnum rounds.


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## Zaphod (Apr 22, 2013)

Bowden said:


> I don't miss :-D



Then why aren't you making money with such mad shooting skills?

I must be the only person who misses with a shotgun.


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## LAM (Apr 22, 2013)

Bowden said:


> A 20 gauge shotgun loaded with #4 buckshot is a better weapon for home defense than a handgun IMO.
> One shot fired from a 20 gauge at close range carries the same force of being hit at the same time with 2 .44 magnum rounds.



from all of the reports I have read for home defense the .22LR has the highest number of stoppages and deaths.  I picked up a SW M&P 22 for my girl a couple months ago at a gun show.


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## LAM (Apr 22, 2013)

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/378276_568477983174906_356187979_n.jpg


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## jagbender (Apr 22, 2013)

Well DUH,  Proof that criminals do not abide by the law! 

By Jonathan Allen
(Reuters) - The two brothers suspected in the Boston Marathon bombings, who police say engaged in a gun battle with officers early Friday after a frenzied manhunt, were not licensed to own guns in the towns where they lived, authorities said on Sunday.
In the confrontation with police on the streets of a Boston suburb, Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev were armed with handguns, at least one rifle and several explosive devices, authorities say.
But neither brother appears to have been legally entitled to own or carry firearms where they lived, a fact that may add to the national debate over current gun laws. Last week, the U.S. Senate rejected a bill to expand background checks on gun purchases, legislation that opponents argued would do nothing to stop criminals from buying guns illegally.
Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 26, who was killed in the shootout with police, would have been required to apply for a gun license with the local police department where he lived in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
But there is no record of him having done so, according to Cambridge Police Department spokesman Dan Riviello.
Even if he had earlier received a gun license from somewhere outside Cambridge, that license would have to be registered with Cambridge police upon becoming a resident of the city, Riviello said. In Massachusetts, gun licenses are issued by municipal police departments.
"There is no record of him having a license to carry," Riviello told Reuters.
Tsarnaev's younger brother Dzhokhar, 19, who was captured alive on Friday after the manhunt, would have been too young to get a handgun license. Under state law, residents under 21 may only apply for a so-called firearms identification card, which allows the holder to own only rifles that hold 10 rounds or less and shotguns.
Dzhokhar Tsarnaev had no record of a firearms ID card in Cambridge. The police department in Dartmouth, where Dzhokhar was a student, said they had no record of gun licenses or ID cards for either brother.
Police in nearby New Bedford, where the younger brother may have lived in the past, could not confirm on Sunday whether they had issued Dzhokhar Tsarnaev a firearms ID card.
Federal law enforcement agencies have not confirmed a full tally of the brothers' arsenal.
Within hours of their images being released on Thursday, the two brothers are accused of shooting dead a Massachusetts Institute of Technology campus police officer in his car, hijacking at least one car at gunpoint, and of shooting at least one police officer during the gun battle in nearby Watertown.
(Reporting By Jonathan Allen in New York; Editing by Paul Thomasch and Eric Beech)


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## DOMS (Apr 22, 2013)

LAM said:


> https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/378276_568477983174906_356187979_n.jpg



Holy shit, what a retarded comic. And racist, too.


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## bio-chem (Apr 22, 2013)

LAM said:


> from all of the reports I have read for home defense the .22LR has the highest number of stoppages and deaths.  I picked up a SW M&P 22 for my girl a couple months ago at a gun show.



From what I have read is that it is because .22's are more prevalent than others, and as such are used more, not because they are more effective.

Effectiveness can be debated all day long on a forum. Go to any gun forum and you will see discussions lasting years and 100's of pages on which is more effective in a home defense scenario. I love the discussion, and I think it should be well researched by those who chose to use a firearm to protect their home. 

What I don't agree with is government getting involved and dictating to us what we should use.


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## troubador (Apr 22, 2013)

Bowden said:


> All of that or if you are like me and don't have kids to worry about defending is that you play it smart, grab the pistol , point it at the door use the bed as a shield between you and the door and call the cops on your cell phone.
> What you don't do when you hear them break in is wander through the house in the dark looking for them and put yourself in a highly compromised vulnerable position.



Sure, I was just pointing out that any defense situation could arise where you need more than 7 rounds, whether you charge after the guy (like no one mentioned) or stay put (like you mentioned).


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## jay_steel (Apr 22, 2013)

Bowden said:


> If people think they need more than seven rounds for home defense then they may want to think about buying a tactical autoloader shotgun.
> If my wife unloads on any home invaders at short range with our 903 and I unload on them with our 930 I doubt that home invaders will argue with us.
> Do you?



I have been through many different training evolutions and my slowest time clearing a room was with a shot gun. When having to engage multiple targets with a shotgun it is really hard to ensure you are on target to hit them. I keep my 870 loaded with buck and slug, i have to have pin point accuracy, salt shot has a higher chance of grazing them as well with will not be lethal and provide them a chance to fire back. Then having to reload a shot gun is a pain in the ass and next to impossible in the dark, because if its a home invasion i am turning off lights behind me and turning on my surefire, but having to reload is fucking retarded with a shot gun, i am pretty experienced with a combat reload and there is to much room for error, unless i can get a 30rn drum but then i am moving around a 15lb gun.

second was my pistol i can clear rooms pretty fast with a pistol w/surefire and night sites no laser. I would have to take a split second to aim and ensure i was on target though...

1st was the AR platform but milspec A4. My ability to engage a target ensure they are armed and then engage is lightning fast, i have plenty of time with a eotech and surefire that i know i am on target and have plenty of time to ensure they are armed. This by far would be the safest gun for me to defend my house with. 

Also for the round count we are trained to all ways go two to three shots with a pistol that means what I better pray there is no more then two people breaking into my home, or that I kill them with one shot? So lets see here some one breaks in my house with a 15 rd mag or a 30 rd AR and I can only have a 7rd pistol or a 10 rnd rifle? Fuck that I will just toss my pressure cooker at them then.


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## jay_steel (Apr 22, 2013)

getting ready to start keeping an FN 57 next to my bed as well as my side arm. To many idiots can buy body armor now a days.


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## jay_steel (Apr 22, 2013)

Bowden said:


> All of that or if you are like me and don't have kids to worry about defending is that you play it smart, grab the pistol , point it at the door use the bed as a shield between you and the door and call the cops on your cell phone.
> What you don't do when you hear them break in is wander through the house in the dark looking for them and put yourself in a highly compromised vulnerable position.
> 
> A 20 gauge shotgun loaded with #4 buckshot is a better weapon for home defense than a handgun IMO.
> One shot fired from a 20 gauge at close range carries the same force of being hit at the same time with 2 .44 magnum rounds.



if your being stationary guarding a door then yes a shotgun is ideal, there is a HUGE fatal funnel for them, but if i am engaging then i want the fastest most accurate weapon i own. The average gun owner yes should prob grab the gun and take off through a french door in the bed room or window if they have no kids. No point to stay, but the fucked up mentality war vets like me will jump to engage the person who wants to fucking break into their home and bring call of duty to real life for them. When i built my home i had the breaker put in my master bed room next to my safe, first thing I am doing is cutting the power the lights, my doors are also electronic from schlage and it is controlled wireless from my cell. My alarm will notifiy the cops and my locks will keep them in the house for me. Maybe once i have kids my mind set will change, but you break into my house i am going to kill you period. i wont risk my life trusting that you wont kill me or allow you to get away to kill some one else.


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## LAM (Apr 23, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> From what I have read is that it is because .22's are more prevalent than others, and as such are used more, not because they are more effective.



they are more effective because you can put more rounds on target.  shoot one of the new .22LRs like the S&W that I picked up and you'll see why.   when "under pressure" those not trained for combat have a hard time putting rounds on target once the adrenalin starts flowing.


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## dogsoldier (Apr 23, 2013)

Ok, ok...here is the upshot (pun intended).  You can have all the stopping power in a cartridge you want and if you can't hit the broad side of a barn, what good is it? The key is placement, placement, placement. However, it is a proven fact that your ability to shoot accurately goes out the window when you are shitting your pants because you are in a fire fight.  

Now the nonsense about the 22 rim fire. Yes, it will kill people. In fact the 22 was (is) the favorite assassination round of the Mossad.  They would pop the tango in the head and that little round would just rattle around in the skull making scrambled eggs out of the brain.  However, it has no stopping power.  My cousin was shot accidentally with a 22 in the calf when we were kids. He didn't know he was hit. He thought some stones popped up and pinged him.  Even with a heart shot, it would take the bad guy too much time to bleed out. No need to get into terminal ballistics, wound channels and such here.  Too long.

So to sum it up. Why should guns be taken from law abiding citizens because of the actions of a few animals? Because the politicians prefer unarmed serfs.


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## bio-chem (Apr 23, 2013)

LAM said:


> they are more effective because you can put more rounds on target.  shoot one of the new .22LRs like the S&W that I picked up and you'll see why.   when "under pressure" those not trained for combat have a hard time putting rounds on target once the adrenalin starts flowing.



LOL, even those trained for combat spray and pray when the adrenalin starts flowing, there are plenty of cops and military that will attest to that. Like I already said what is most effective can be debated all day long, and has been on gun forums across the net for years. Anyone thinking it is answered definitively is a fool and an idiot. I personally feel that a 9mm can be kept on target just as easily as a 22, and with a 45 i'm personally always most accurate regardless of stress level. But that is just me. i wouldn't presume to dictate to someone else what is most effective, and I take offense that anyone in government (such as biden) knows enough to tell the american people what they need or don't need.


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## troubador (Apr 23, 2013)

dogsoldier said:


> Now the nonsense about the 22 rim fire. Yes, it will kill people. In fact the 22 was (is) the favorite assassination round of the Mossad.  They would pop the tango in the head and that little round would just rattle around in the skull making scrambled eggs out of the brain.  However, it has no stopping power.



And considering in a defensive situation the bad guy will probably be within 7 yards, I doubt the increased recoil, going from .22lr to something like 9mm or .45ACP, is much of a factor compared to initial shot placement.


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## jay_steel (Apr 24, 2013)

LAM said:


> they are more effective because you can put more rounds on target.  shoot one of the new .22LRs like the S&W that I picked up and you'll see why.   when "under pressure" those not trained for combat have a hard time putting rounds on target once the adrenalin starts flowing.



This is why i am a firm believer that if you own guns you train with them. My wife wanted her CCW so I sent her through a week long tactical and training course for pistols that was taught be retired seals. The sad thing is she came back and taught me how to reshoot at our family range lol.


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## jay_steel (Apr 24, 2013)

troubador said:


> And considering in a defensive situation the bad guy will probably be within 7 yards, I doubt the increased recoil, going from .22lr to something like 9mm or .45ACP, is much of a factor compared to initial shot placement.



It all depends on the shooter and the gun. I prefer a .40 unless I am shooting a 1911 then a .45, but I can pop off a .40 much faster and have a tighter grouping then with a .45. I personally feel more comfortable with .40 then a .45 and my prefer my carry to be a 9mm due to the same reason. If i personally need to shoot in a non controlled environment i want a gun to be able to shoot as fast as possible with the tighest grouping which is why i am looking to swap my khar for an LC9. Give it a try and see if my timing is improved... If i can get an extra bullet out a second faster that can mean allot. Now these are all subcompacts, like I said if it was a full size then .45 is the way to go, and my 1911's recoil is very manageable, but i would still take a glock to a fire fight.


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## bio-chem (Apr 24, 2013)

jay_steel said:


> This is why i am a firm believer that if you own guns you train with them. My wife wanted her CCW so I sent her through a week long tactical and training course for pistols that was taught be retired seals. The sad thing is she came back and taught me how to reshoot at our family range lol.



That woman sounds like a keeper


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## jay_steel (Apr 24, 2013)

he was raised by a farmer... her only down side is shes scared of bugs... so i get on her case about living on a farm and being scared of bugs is kind of an oxymoran.


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## jagbender (Apr 24, 2013)

jay_steel said:


> getting ready to start keeping an FN 57 next to my bed as well as my side arm. To many idiots can buy body armor now a days.



[h=1]What?s All The Fuss About FN?s Five-seveN USG?[/h]by David  Fortier?January  3, 2011? 37  comments

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FNH unleashed a firestorm of controversy when it introduced  the 5.7x28mm cartridge and the Five-seveN USG pistol.
By David Fortier
Photography: Emily Fortier
The antigun crowd has set out on yet another witch hunt as once again they?re  angrily calling for the banning of a firearm. Using stock terms like ?no  sporting purpose,? ?cop killer ammo,? and ?deadly military-style automatic  weapon,? they?ve climbed back up onto their soapboxes to enact a ban on one  particular firearm. I wondered what firearm could be so evil that we had to run  right out and send them all to the bottom of the ocean.









The current target is a .22-caliber centerfire pistol manufactured by the  well-respected firm Fabrique Nationale d?Armes de Guerre-Herstal. Dubbed the  Five-seveN, it chambers a small-caliber high-velocity cartridge called the  5.7x28mm. It?s actually this cartridge, rather than the pistol itself, that is  at the heart of the controversy. Intrigued by what all the hoopla was about, I  decided to take an in-depth look at FN, the proprietary 5.7x28mm cartridge, and  the Five-seveN pistol that chambers it.

I figured the best place to start was at Fabrique Nationale, so I boarded a  plane to Belgium. For those of you unfamiliar with this Belgian company, FN has  long played a major role in the development and evolution of significant  military small arms. It is the home of the P35 Hi-Power pistol, FAL rifle, MAG  GPMG and Minimi light machinegun. It was here that John Moses Browning made his  home. Standing in his office, I could not help but be moved while contemplating  the work accomplished there. Looking at this company?s past, it?s interesting to  note that its firearms have always stood against tyrants bent on conquest. Today  is no different as American troops fight the good fight wielding M249 SAWs and  M240 GPMGs built by FN.

Philippe Claessens, the managing director of FN-Herstal, took time from his  busy schedule to meet with me when I arrived. During our conversation he shed  some light on the recent past and where FN is headed today. With the end of the  Cold War FN?s management resized and reshaped the company to make it more  efficient. Today FN employs 1000 employees in Belgium. At the same time the  company has invested 80 million Euros modernizing and rebuilding the facility in  Herstal to streamline production. Understanding the importance of research and  development (R&D) FN also began allotting five to six percent of its budget  (it takes in approximately 450 million Euros a year) to R&D.



SPECS: FNH Five-seveN USG  Semiautomatic Pistol *Distributor:**FNH-USA  Inc.**Model:*USG*Operation:*Delayed blowback  autoloader*Caliber:*5.7x28mm*Barrel  Length:*4.8 inches*Overall  Length:*8.2 inches*Weight,  empty*1.3 pounds*Safety:*Ambidextrous, located above  trigger*Sights:*Fully adjustable rear, blade  front*Stocks:*Integral polymer  frame*Magazine  Capacity:*20  rounds*Finish:*Matte black*Price:*$1074
 
*The 5.7x28mm Cartridge*
One project stemming from FN?s  R&D work is the Five-seveN pistol and its 5.7x28mm cartridge. Beginning in  the late 1980s FN concluded that with the proliferation of body armor NATO?s  9x19mm firearms were rapidly becoming obsolete. In 1990 NATO recognized this  threat and officially began looking into replacing 9x19mm arms with a new  Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) system that would be capable of penetrating body  armor and would be issued to personnel who did not need a regular rifle.

But what could replace the 9x19mm NATO? When it comes to penetrating armor  there are several methods that work. The simplest is to merely drive a very  small diameter projectile at high velocity. And this is what FN did. The result  is a small bottleneck cartridge with a 28mm-long case topped with a .224-inch  diameter projectile. The standard military/LE SS190 ball loading features a  31-grain FMJBT. The cartridge?s overall length is 40.5mm, and it weighs half  what a 9x19mm cartridge does.

To cut through body armor the .224-inch-diameter SS190 projectile  incorporates a cone-shaped steel penetrator sitting atop an aluminum core  surrounded by a steel jacket. Velocity of the 5.7x28mm SS190 ball load from a  P90 PDW?s 10.2-inch barrel is a respectable 2346 fps. Out of a Five-seveN pistol  with 4.8-inch barrel it clocks 2133 fps. Despite the high muzzle velocity recoil  is approximately 30 percent less than the 9x19mm. This 5.7x28mm load was  specifically designed to defeat a NATO CRISAT target (consisting of a 1.6mm  titanium plate with 20 Kevlar folds), and it will?even at 200 meters.

In addition to the SS190 ball loading (color coded with a black tip), FN also  developed a number of specialty loads. These include the L191 Tracer, Sb193  Subsonic, and SS192 Training Round. For commercial sales FN developed the SS195  LF JHP and SS196 V-Max. The SS195 LF features a jacketed hollowpoint that lacks  the steel core of the SS190. It drives a 28-grain JHP at a claimed velocity of  2312 fps from a P90 and 2100 fps from a Five-seveN. Not designed to expand, and  without the body armor penetration of the SS190, this lead-free round is instead  designed with a rapid y
aw cycle.









Originally developed for military use, the 5.7x28mm  cartridge is now available to civilians in FN?s Five-seveN USG

The SS196 is topped with a 40-grain Hornady V-Max and has a muzzle velocity  of 1800 fps from the P90 and 1600 fps from the Five-seveN. This load is designed  to expand/fragment and also lacks the body armor penetration of the SS190 load.  The SS190, L191, and Sb193 were developed for military and law enforcement use,  so they have always been restricted and have never been available for sale to  civilians. However, neither the SS195 LF nor the SS196 load was designed to  penetrate body armor, and neither is classified as armor piercing by BATFE.  Therefore, both loads are available, without restriction, to lawfully armed  citizens.

*The Five-seveN pistol*
FN developed two systems to utilize  the new 5.7x28mm cartridge: the P90 PDW and the Five-seveN service pistol. Both  are modern designs manufactured from space-age corrosion-resistant materials.  The P90 is a unique-looking compact submachinegun that feeds from a horizontally  mounted 50-round magazine. The companion of the P90 is the Five-seveN. It is a  full-size service pistol that operates via delayed blowback. I had a chance to  shoot both the P90 and Five-seveN pistol on the company?s outdoor range, but I  was looking to spend more time with the Five-seveN than was possible in a mere  demonstration. So after returning to the U.S., I requested a Five-seveN pistol  for review. It arrived a short time later, and I immediately got to work.

The model I received was FN?s Five-seveN USG. It came in a black plastic hard  case with a cleaning kit, tools, lock, and two spare 20-round magazines. A  full-size service pistol with a look all its own, the USG is built on a  lightweight polymer frame. Quite out of the ordinary, though, is that the slide,  which houses a 4.8-inch hard-chromed barrel, also has a polymer shell. Due to  the amount of polymer utilized in its construction the USG, despite its size, is  relatively light, just 1.3 pounds unloaded. My sample gun weighed 1.6 pounds  loaded. Overall length is 8.2 inches, and it?s approximately 5.75 inches  high.









(From left to right) 5.56, 5.7x28mm SS190, 9?19, .224  BOZ, 7.62x25mm Sabot, 7.62x25mm, 5.45x18mm Soviet, 5.7x28mm SS190, 5.7x28mm  SS195 LF.

Upon first examining the USG one notes the controls are placed a bit  differently than the norm. The USG?s magazine release (which can be reversed for  left-handed use) is a conventionally located push button release. No change  here. But the slide release is located just forward of where the safety is  mounted on a 1911. This allows it to be easily depressed without having to  stretch for it. Ambidextrous safety levers are mounted on both sides of the  frame just above the trigger.

While this is an unusual place for a safety on a handgun, modern pistol  handling doctrine calls for placing your trigger finger alongside the frame when  not actually firing. This puts it right over the USG?s safety lever allowing it  to be easily manipulated. To facilitate use with gloves the trigger guard is  slightly oversized at the front. A takedown lever is located on the left-hand  side of the pistol?s frame, allowing it to be easily stripped without tools. To  show the state of the firearm, a loaded chamber indicator is mounted to the left  rear of the ejection port.

The frame of the pistol is nicely contoured and textured to provide a  comfortable yet secure grip. To make the design more flexible and user friendly,  the dustcover features a MIL-STD 1913 rail, which allows lights and lasers to be  easily mounted. Feed is from synthetic magazines that hold a whopping 20 rounds.  A magazine disconnect is incorporated into the design, but the good news is that  it does not degrade the quality of the trigger. Somewhat surprisingly, the  trigger on the USG is quite good, being both light and crisp with a very short  reset.









The pistol also comes with an integral accessories  rail and 20-round magazine.

Sights consist of a large, easy-to-see blade front sight mated to a fully  adjustable rear. They feature white dots to make them easier to pick up.

*Shooting The New System*
I spent some time getting to know  FN?s USG at the range. With a 20-round magazine I expected the USG?s frame to be  fat and bulky. Pawing it over I was pleasantly surprised to find it quite  comfortable. Magazines inserted easily, the slide retracted smoothly, and the  small bottleneck rounds fed readily into the chamber. The safety took a bit to  get used to, simply because I was unaccustomed to its location, but I have no  negative comments about it. The ammunition I had on hand for testing was a large  quantity of FN?s 28-grain JHP load. I set to work making empty brass.

I began testing by checking the Five-seveN?s accuracy from the bench at 25  yards. I fired four five-shot groups off of sandbags, and the average group size  came in at two inches. Velocity of 10 rounds averaged 1951 fps, which is a good  bit lower than FN?s claim. Impressed by its 25-yard accuracy, I placed a target  at 50 yards and repeated my testing. At this distance the Five-seveN averaged  four-inch groups and is probably capable of doing better. Recoil is very mild.  The muzzle simply flips slightly and then settles back into place. It?s a very  pleasant pistol to shoot.









While the Five-seveN USG pistol?s push-button magazine  release is conventionally located, its slide release, ambidextrous safeties, and  takedown lever are positioned differently than the norm.

From the bench I moved to running drills from a holster. For gear I selected  a holster and magazine carriers from Blade-Tech, Dept. ST, 2506 104th St. Court  S., Suite A, Lakewood, WA 98499; 253-581-4347; Blade Tech holsters, knives and tactical gear for military, law enforcement, shooting competition and hunting - Blade Tech holsters, knives and tactical gear for military, law enforcement, shooting competition and hunting. I?ve always  had good luck with Blade-Tech gear, and it did not let me down this time.  Starting at the two-yard line and working my way back to the 15-yard line, I ran  various drills, including shooting strong-handed, weak-handed, and with both  hands?stationary and on the move with plenty of forced reloads and failure  drills.



Shooting FNH?s Five-seveN  *Load*Muzzle Velocity  (fps)25-Yard Accuracy  (inches)50-Yard Accuracy  (inches)*5.7x28mm  SS195 LF 28-gr. JHP*19512.004.00NOTES:  Accuracy is the average of four five-shot groups fired from a sandbag benchrest  at the ranges specified. Velocity is the average of 20 rounds measured 15 feet  from the gun?s muzzle. The sample pistol had a 4.8-inch barrel. Oak  Penetration *Load*Penetration Depth  (inches) *5.7x28mm SS195 LF-gr.  JHP*3.00 *7.62x25mm Winchester  85-gr. FMJ*5.00 *.45 ACP Black Hills  230-gr. JHP*2.50 *.50 GI Guncrafter  Industries 275-gr. JHP*3.00 NOTES:  All rounds were fired into a block of solid oak at a range of 10  yards. Water  Penetration *Load*Penetration Depth  (inches)Bullet Expansion  (inches) *5.7x28mm SS195 LF  28-gr. JHP*10.00None *.32 ACP Winchester  60-gr. Silvertip*9.000.38 *9x19mm 124-gr.  FMJ*58.00None *7.62x25mm Winchester  85-gr. FMJ*62.00+N/A; bullet was not  recovered NOTES:  Figures are the average for five rounds fired at a distance of 12 feet. The  7.62x25mm penetrated all 62 inches of the water trough, and the bullet was not  recovered. 
 
Shooting the Five-seveN is a whole lot of fun! Thanks to the excellent  trigger, light recoil, mild muzzle flip, and bottomless magazine you can blister  targets at a rapid rate. Lock into it and the slide simply pistons back and  forth as empties fly out. When the magazine finally runs dry, punch the release  and it?s kicked clear. Slap another one home, hit the slide release, and keep  going. Practical accuracy is excellent, and man-sized targets are easy to hit,  even at 100 yards.

Okay, the USG shoots, but what about the cartridge? I checked its  penetration/expansion in water. Firing at a distance of 12 feet, penetration of  five rounds averaged between nine and 11 inches. None of the rounds expanded or  deformed in any manner, and other than the rifling marks, all looked like new  when recovered. However, I did notice one interesting thing. It?s obvious that  the rounds yaw quickly as two rounds penetrated approximately six inches and  then turned 90 degrees and exited the side of the water container. Penetration  of this load, in my opinion, is a bit on the shallow side for law enforcement.  As a comparison, when fired into 10-percent ordnance gelatin this load  penetrates only to about 8.5 inches.









Stepping out to 50 yards was no problem for the USG,  and hits on a man-sized target were a snap even at 100 yards.

Then I fired three rounds into a block of solid oak; I also fired three  rounds of commercial Winchester 7.62x25mm 85-grain FMJ from a Chinese Type 54  pistol. I then carefully split the block open and measured the depth of  penetration. The 5.7x28mm averaged 3.00 inches while the 7.62x25mm (at 1435 fps)  averaged 5.00 inches. Repeating this on an iron plate, the 5.7x28mm simply left  silver smears, but the 7.62x25mm slightly dimpled the plate.

What do I think of FN?s Five-seveN USG? I like it! It?s accurate, reliable,  and easy to shoot well. Plus, it?s an awful lot of fun to shoot, especially with  that deep 20-round magazine capacity. My wife Emily put her Nikon up for a bit  and took a turn behind it. She liked it, too. For me, a firearm simply being fun  to shoot, whether it?s an M1886 Lebel or FN?s USG, is reason enough to own  it.

Regarding terminal performance for personal protection, many vocal detractors  in the U.S. doubt that this small cartridge and its ultralightweight 28- or  40-grain bullets provide adequate terminal performance. Highly respected  experts, such as Dr. Gary K. Roberts, have stated current 5.7x28mm loads do not  offer sufficient penetration or inflict a large enough permanent wound cavity  based upon testing in ordnance gelatin. A 28-grain nonexpanding  .224-inch-diameter bullet at 1950 fps is certainly no magnum. Despite this, FN  stands firmly behind the 5.7x28mm and states it has worked well when employed by  military/law enforcement personnel in actual shootings.

What about the antigun crowd?s claims of it being useful only for cop  killers? ?Nuts,? says I. The SS190 load has always been restricted and is  shipped from a U.S. Customs controlled warehouse only to military and law  enforcement agencies. None has ever been available commercially. The only  ammunition available for commercial sale are the sporting-grade 28-grain JHP and  the 40-grain V-Max loadings. Neither of these loads is classified as armor  piercing by BATFE. In reality a run-of-the-mill .44 Magnum revolver with hunting  loads will penetrate deeper in body armor than either of these 5.7x28mm  loads.









Accuracy at 25 yards was very
good, with the  average group coming in at 2.00 inches

Some European and domestic companies refuse to offer civilian versions of  military firearms, high-capacity magazines, or folding stocks, but FN is not  among them. If you?re interested in a Five-seveN USG pistol, they are available  for $1074. Ammunition is growing in availability, and FN plans on introducing an  SS197 load (40-grain V-Max at 2000 fps from the USG) in the near future. Hornady  even has loading dies and appropriate projectiles sitting on the shelf if you?d  prefer to handload. Plus, there will be a companion in the form of a  semiautomatic version of the P90 PDW available by the time you read this.

The antigun crowd not wanting me to own one is enough reason to add a USG to  my collection



Read more: What


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## dogsoldier (Apr 24, 2013)

troubador said:


> And considering in a defensive situation the bad guy will probably be within 7 yards, I doubt the increased recoil, going from .22lr to something like 9mm or .45ACP, is much of a factor compared to initial shot placement.



recoil is over rated. If you train with your pistol, you can tame it. My wife is 5'2" weighs about 120, she can handle any of my 1911's.  How can someone so small handle a big pistol? I taught her and she practices. You need strength in your forearms and hands to control just about any pistol.  The key is to find something you are comfortable with and practice.  I love the old saying, "Beware of the man with one gun, he probably knows how to use it."


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## Swiper (Apr 24, 2013)

*FINANCIAL GUN CONTROL? GE CAPITAL QUIETLY CUTS OFF LENDING TO GUN SHOPS*


General Electric, Co. has been quietly informing gun shop owners that the company will no longer be providing lending services to them, the Wall Street Journal reports. GE Capital is apparently reconsidering its relationship to firearms companies following the Sandy Hook shooting.
Earlier this month, Glenn Duncan, owner of Duncan?s Outdoor Store in Bay City, Mich., claims he received a letter from GE Capital Retail Bank announcing its ?difficult decision? to stop providing financial services to his business. Other gun shops have received similar notices, the Journal notes.
More from WSJ.com:GE is at least the second big financial firm to retreat from the gun business following the school shootings, which claimed the lives of 20 first-graders and six adults in December.
Days after the killings, private-equity firm Cerberus Capital Management LP said it would try to sell the gun company it owns?Freedom Group Inc.? which makes brands including Remington, Bushmaster, Marlin and H&R.
[?]
GE is based in Fairfield, Conn., and many of the GE?s employees live around Newtown, and several have children in the Sandy Hook elementary school, where the shootings took place. Peter Lanza, the father of Sandy Hook gunman Adam Lanza, is an executive at GE Capital. GE Chief Executive Jeff Immelt held a town hall meeting with affected employees after the shooting, and the board has been updated on efforts to help staff, a person familiar with the matter said.
A spokeswoman for Wells Fargo & Co. said bank officials decided to exit gun financing nearly a decade ago. Bank of America Corp., which got out of the business in 2008, didn?t respond to requests for comment. A spokeswoman for Citigroup Inc. said the bank doesn?t finance loans for firearms.​GE Capital spokesman Russell Wilkerson said the company?s policy changes are the result of ?industry changes, new legislation and tragical events.?

The U.S. gun market brought in about $11.7 billion in sales last year, according to IBIS World. Additionally, financing is merely a ?marginal activity? in the industry so GE?s actions shouldn?t have a huge impact on the gun market, WSJ.com reports.
But that?s not to say gun shops won?t feel it as more large banks refuse to provide lending services.
?Your options are very limited by being in our business,? said Rex McClanahan, co-owner of Buds Gun Shop in Lexington, Ky.
?Smaller lenders have helped fill the gap. Last July, Randy Frazier opened a new division of his direct-marketing business called Gun Financing, promising on its website to arrange loans for ?hottest firearms.? Mr. Frazier said his audience is young men with spotty credit seeking high-end rifles and equipment for sport shooting,? the Wall Street Journal report adds.
Still, GE?s decision carries symbolic weight (which gun control advocates will latch on to) and will no doubt be felt by companies that have come to rely on customers buying more products because of financing.
And although there are a number of things (mostly negative) that can be said about GE?s anti-gun decision, let?s let Zero Hedge have the last word:
Financial Gun Control? GE Capital Quietly Cuts Off Lending to Gun Shops | TheBlaze.com

​


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## Swiper (Apr 24, 2013)

*NOT BACKING DOWN: 8TH GRADER SUSPENDED, ARRESTED OVER HIS NRA T-SHIRT RETURNS TO SCHOOL?WEARING THE EXACT SAME SHIRT*


Disciplined 8th-grader Jared Marcum returned to class on Monday after being suspended from school and arrested for refusing to change his NRA t-shirt at the request of one of his teachers. The shirt apparently pictured a firearm and the words ?protect your rights.?
However, he apparently hasn?t learned his lesson ? assuming that there was even any lesson to be learned. Fresh off his suspension, Marcum showed up to school on Monday wearing the exact same NRA shirt that sparked what many have labeled ?t-shirt control.?
There were also other people wearing matching shirts in support of Marcum, WOWK-TV reports.
?There?s a lot of people wearing this same exact shirt, showing great, great support and I really appreciate it,? the student said Monday before going to school.
ared?s father, Allen Lardieri, says getting Jared back into school was his first priority.
We?ve completed the first leg of what we wanted to accomplish here,? Lardieri said.  ?Now, we?re working on the next step, which is trying to clear his name.?
Lardieri says that he was informed by Logan City Police on Thursday that his son was facing two charges, obstructing an officer and disrupting the education process. However, Jared?s attorney Ben White says that wasn?t the police department?s call to make.
?He was arrested, he was put into handcuffs, he was removed from the school and brought to the Logan City Police Department,? White said. ?Charges aren?t officially filed or brought until the prosecuting attorney?s signs off on them and they don?t do that willy nilly.  They do that after a thorough investigation.?​That investigation is currently underway, according to authorities. Leading the investigation is juvenile prosecuting attorney Sabrina Deskins.
Not Backing Down: 8th Grader Suspended, Arrested Over His NRA T-Shirt Returns to School


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## bio-chem (Apr 29, 2013)

Let GE pull their money. If they don't want to invest in profitable companies then don't. If people knew the profit margins on even poorly run shooting ranges everyone would invest in them.


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## LAM (Apr 29, 2013)

jay_steel said:


> This is why i am a firm believer that if you own guns you train with them. My wife wanted her CCW so I sent her through a week long tactical and training course for pistols that was taught be retired seals. The sad thing is she came back and taught me how to reshoot at our family range lol.



yes but the vast majority of novice hand gun owners do not do so, plus you are also ex-military and obviously understand the importance of training with the weapon you want to master for a specific purpose.

a lot of people are delusional and think that they can just buy a weapon and keep it in a draw for the time it's needed and they will "miraculously" become deadeye dick with it in an emergency.


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## jay_steel (Apr 29, 2013)

troubador said:


> And considering in a defensive situation the bad guy will probably be within 7 yards, I doubt the increased recoil, going from .22lr to something like 9mm or .45ACP, is much of a factor compared to initial shot placement.



7 yrds is pretty far with a pistol. There is huge difference in a .45 recoil to .40 recoil and 9mm and .22 shit there is zero recoil. If the average guy can run a 40 in say 5 seconds that gives you two seconds to kill him at 9 yrds. If you can not double tap it may take the average person two seconds to pull the trigger twice, the first shot will probably be pulled due to bad trigger pull and will probably miss to the right. This happened probably 90% of the time with new guys going through boarding training for the military. Adrenaline kicks in they pull their trigger like they did at the arcade games and anticipate recoil. 

Now hes 5 feet from you and you have one more shot, even if you hit him he may be close enough to stab or hit you with a blunt object. This is why i carry a .40 because i can pull off rnds MUCH faster and more comfortable with and i had my wife step down from a 9mm to a .380 because she can double tap a .380 (shit blows my mind). I know seals that carry 9mm's and others that carry 45 for this same reason... in combat EVERY split second counts... You give up 2 tenths of a second your dead.


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## LAM (Apr 29, 2013)

jay_steel said:


> 7 yrds is pretty far with a pistol. There is huge difference in a .45 recoil to .40 recoil and 9mm and .22 shit there is zero recoil. If the average guy can run a 40 in say 5 seconds that gives you two seconds to kill him at 9 yrds. If you can not double tap it may take the average person two seconds to pull the trigger twice, the first shot will probably be pulled due to bad trigger pull and will probably miss to the right. This happened probably 90% of the time with new guys going through boarding training for the military. Adrenaline kicks in they pull their trigger like they did at the arcade games and anticipate recoil.
> 
> Now hes 5 feet from you and you have one more shot, even if you hit him he may be close enough to stab or hit you with a blunt object. This is why i carry a .40 because i can pull off rnds MUCH faster and more comfortable with and i had my wife step down from a 9mm to a .380 because she can double tap a .380 (shit blows my mind). I know seals that carry 9mm's and others that carry 45 for this same reason... in combat EVERY split second counts... You give up 2 tenths of a second your dead.



when I first started shooting with handguns I always used to remember what was learned from the old wild west.  the deadliest gun fighters were not the ones that were fastest on the drawl they were the ones that were quick on the drawl but remained calm, controlled that adrenaline when it was flowing it point rounds on target every single time.


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## jay_steel (Apr 29, 2013)

LAM said:


> yes but the vast majority of novice hand gun owners do not do so, plus you are also ex-military and obviously understand the importance of training with the weapon you want to master for a specific purpose.
> 
> a lot of people are delusional and think that they can just buy a weapon and keep it in a draw for the time it's needed and they will "miraculously" become deadeye dick with it in an emergency.



this is why i feel that the country should be more supportive on guns... if we had a more open policy and had gun ranges and gun classes like we have golf courses we would have less issues i feel. Kids would become more educated and so will adults. I wrote a paper for class that explained that the worst people are anti gun people who refuse to learn about guns or properly handle them. My debate with another class mate was if she is so anti guns what is she going to do if her son or her gets put in a position where they have to safety handle a gun. Could she unload it, render it safe, and do it with out fear. I feel even if you NEVER plan to own a gun its smart to learn the basics still and understand what its ability is. So you can also teach your children about them. I knew about guns and was able to shoot at a young age. So when my friends were like check out my dads gun, i was just like so what i have three at home i shoot. Those kids would all ways take it out and play with it, thank god it was never loaded, but i never even cared to, because to me it was nothing out of the ordinary for them it was this HUGE taboo adrenaline rush. 

we just got my niece whose 3 her first gun. A .22 rifle and she killed her first squirl with it, with the help of her dad. Also building my sister an AR right now, shes got a .22 thats she's growing out of.. Its funny shes got a rugar 10/22 with my old Leopold scope on it lol.


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## jay_steel (Apr 29, 2013)

LAM said:


> when I first started shooting with handguns I always used to remember what was learned from the old wild west.  the deadliest gun fighters were not the ones that were fastest on the drawl they were the ones that were quick on the drawl but remained calm, controlled that adrenaline when it was flowing it point rounds on target every single time.



ive have learned that girls are the easiest to teach to shoot period. EVERY guy including me that i have ever taught all ways pulled the trigger to the right. They get that video game shooting or toy gun shooting when you would simulate your own recoil and that movement is so embedded into your brain as a boy growing up that we have the habit of going back to that. The way i like to teach people to shoot is dry firing with a coin on the front site. If the coin stays on the gun and does not fall thats a hit, if it falls then your dead. REALLY gets your trigger pull flawless and forces you to slow down. 

yes but speed in combat is important if it can be used accurately. To me its like giving a heavy bat to a weak kid, sure there will be more force coming off the bat, but the velocity is not there. You dont want a gun thats going to blow up recoil and cause you to lose focus you want a gun thats going to give you the fastest possible engagement. If i can double tab a .40 must better then a .45 and have a faster shooting time in time trials with a .40 why would i carry a .45?


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## bio-chem (Apr 29, 2013)

I can control the recoil of my 1911 better than I can my berretta .40 Neither is difficult for me to control though. I've been very pleased with what i've seen from civilian gun owners. the majority of gun owners I see do a good job of getting the training they need to feel comfortable with their intended uses.


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## troubador (Apr 29, 2013)

jay_steel said:


> in combat EVERY split second counts... You give up 2 tenths of a second your dead.



What we're discussing is a factorial experiment but we don't have any data. Theoretically, if you give up 2 thousandths of a second you could be dead. Obviously you should only carry what you can shoot. All I'm saying is if you can't control 9mm you've got some issues that need to be addressed.


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## troubador (Apr 29, 2013)

bio-chem said:


> I can control the recoil of my 1911 better than I can my berretta .40 Neither is difficult for me to control though. I've been very pleased with what i've seen from civilian gun owners. the majority of gun owners I see do a good job of getting the training they need to feel comfortable with their intended uses.



Just comparing rounds, .40S&W has more muzzle energy than most .45ACP rounds. Even 9mm+P has as much energy as .45. However, .45+P is a different story. As you know the gun it's shot out of makes a big difference.


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## jay_steel (Apr 29, 2013)

troubador said:


> What we're discussing is a factorial experiment but we don't have any data. Theoretically, if you give up 2 thousandths of a second you could be dead. Obviously you should only carry what you can shoot. All I'm saying is if you can't control 9mm you've got some issues that need to be addressed.



there are many girls that can not shoot a 9mm better then a .308. My wife being one of them she runs through our three gun course with a .308 and has seconds off her time compared to a 9mm or 40. The data is in physics if some ones gun rises x inches and takes y seconds to reengage you have z. calc it out over the course of 3-4 shots and there can be a huge difference. I never said this is for every shooter, but as a gun owner i will shot the gun that i can shoot fastest with.


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## troubador (Apr 29, 2013)

jay_steel said:


> The data is in physics if some ones gun rises x inches and takes y seconds to reengage you have z.



What does Z equal? Are you saying X+Y=Z?


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## bio-chem (Apr 29, 2013)

jay_steel said:


> but as a gun owner i will shot the gun that i can shoot fastest with.



That's the thing. each gun owner should find what works best for them without interference. The gun platform, the caliber, whatever. screw the government stepping in and saying what we need


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