# can postworkout carbs be alot?



## joey2005 (Oct 8, 2004)

like say 50g??? 1 cup of oatmeal? along with 50g of protein


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## Vieope (Oct 8, 2004)

_That is not a lot. _


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## nikegurl (Oct 8, 2004)

I get 1/3 - 1/2 of my total carbs for the day postworkout.


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 8, 2004)

joey2005 said:
			
		

> like say 50g??? 1 cup of oatmeal? along with 50g of protein



The amount of carbs you need post-workout will depend on your goals/desired weight and the intensity of your workout.

Generally, after a decent/intense weight training session it is suggested that you aim for about 0.5g of carbs per pound of desired body weight.  So, if you want to be, say, 200 pounds, then a post-workout meal would best have 100g of carbs in it. Or, if you wanted to be 150 pounds, then a post-workout meal should have ~75g of carbs in it.

Of course, this is all individual and will also depend on the type of diet you are following and also, some people (especially those who are cutting for competition), tend to decrease this amount - so it is also about what you are comfortable with.

For protein, you should go for about 0.25 to 0.3g/pound - so, to use the above examples - If you wanted to be 200 pounds, you should aim for 50 to 60g of protein and if you wanted to be 150 pounds then 35 to 50g of protein in it.

But 50g of carbs, for someone who is not going 'low-carb' is not a lot of carbs post-workout, especially after an intense weight training session (unless you are small, very small)...


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## Tom_B (Oct 9, 2004)

really? lol I had no idea you were suppos to eat that much after a wokout, now I need to rework my diet 
does the same thing go for after a cardio workout?


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 9, 2004)

Tom_B said:
			
		

> really? lol I had no idea you were suppos to eat that much after a wokout, now I need to rework my diet
> does the same thing go for after a cardio workout?


Yup - if you are really concerned with post-workout recovery then you should be aiming for this level of intake after your weight training.

For cardio it depends on the intensity and duration - With HIIT or high intensity cardio I definately feel carbs are required, and a good dose of them as well. Low intensity/slow cardio then it is not so much of an issue.


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## Tha Don (Oct 9, 2004)

yes tom

i have 60g of carbs after cardio, and 80g of carbs after weights (with 40g of whey isolate), and i'm cutting!

probably up the carbs to around 100g with 50g of whey when i start bulking again


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## Tom_B (Oct 9, 2004)

lol ok thanks guys today after my cardio I had 50G of protein, and 73G of carbs


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 9, 2004)

Tom_B said:
			
		

> lol ok thanks guys today after my cardio I had 50G of protein, and 73G of carbs


Ok - Firstly: 
 *Woo hoo!!* 

Good on you!   That is what I like to see - you got to get some more meat on you boy!  Targets for your carbs should be 0.5g/pound of your target weight, which is about 155-160 is it not? So you were basically spot on for that (could have had a _little_ more..) At 0.3g/pound for protein 45 to 50g is great!


But Secondly: 
BAD TOM!  You know better than to do HIIT cardio on a rest day - and the day before legs as well!! Grrrrr....


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## Rocco32 (Oct 9, 2004)

Now when your talking about carbs here post w/o, does that include dextrose and maltodextrose?


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 9, 2004)

rock4832 said:
			
		

> Now when your talking about carbs here post w/o, does that include dextrose and maltodextrose?



 If you do not mind pouring pure, unnutritional, horrible sugary crap down your throat...  Then yes, this figure includes these things...


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## LAM (Oct 9, 2004)

Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> If you do not mind pouring pure, unnutritional, horrible sugary crap down your throat...  Then yes, this figure includes these things...



I completely disagree...the inteligent use of glucose based sugars is proven effective at increasing anabolism and restoring muscle glycogen with no adverse effects on health....low GI is surely not the only option for post workout carbs


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## Rocco32 (Oct 9, 2004)

Hmmmm, two completely different views back to back here. Why do I get confused again, LOL


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## Rocco32 (Oct 9, 2004)

I take in about 75g dextrose and malto with a cup of raw oats and creatine.


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 9, 2004)

LAM said:
			
		

> I completely disagree...the inteligent use of glucose based sugars is proven effective at increasing anabolism and restoring muscle glycogen with no adverse effects on health....low GI is surely not the only option for post workout carbs


I agree - glucose is very effective post-workout. It decreases cortisol (which helps in decreasing catabolism), restores muscle glycogen and aids in stimulating anabolism... 

I also never said that high GI was the problem. The use of higher GI/higher II carbohydrates is also benificial post-workout. Not only because they increase the speed at which these positive things occur, but also because if there is ever a time to take in these types of foods it is after resistance training - when you have an increased insulin sensitivity and hence, better nutrient partitioning.

However, I have a problem with the nutritional void that is pure powdered dextrose/maltodextrose. With so many other requirements in the post-workout period (for example: restoration of electrolytes, reversal of oxidative damage, restoration of total body energy/blood and liver glucose) there are much more nutritionally benificial higher GI/high II sources than powdered glucose/dextrose and maltodextrose, things that will act to fill these important post-workout needs as well.


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## Rocco32 (Oct 9, 2004)

So what do you recommend in place of pure powder Emma?


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 9, 2004)

rock4832 said:
			
		

> So what do you recommend in place of pure powder Emma?


Post-workout recovery is not purely about "insulin spiking"... It is the availability of the carbohydrates that is far more important. 

For this reason there are lots of options - 
Thinly rolled oats (not thickly rolled) are great. Just as long as they are thinly rolled they are high enough on the GI scale to be fine.

Banana's and other higher glucose fruit such as grapes are excellent in helping restore glycogen stores, replenishing electrolytes, decreasing oxidative damage and restoring whole body glucose levels.

Skim dairy (milk, fat-free yoghurt) is great - it is HIGHLY anabolic, highly anti-catabolic and is very high on the insulin index.

Combining these things (if you want, in addition to a smaller amount of dextrose) would be far more benificial.

I made some points in a post here: "Post-workout Shake"


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## Rocco32 (Oct 9, 2004)

and that will also be effective with creatine delivery?


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## milliman (Oct 9, 2004)

A question for all of you brains.

I thought after workout, you had Growth Hormone cursing thru your veins. Barry Sears in his book about the Zone Diet said this too. But he also said if post work out you eat a bunch of high GI carbs, then when your insulin spikes, it snuffs out your growth hormone. He said carbs up to his ratio of 40:30:30 were ok, but beyond that you started to spike the insulin.

It seemed to fit me to a tee years ago. I would work out with the wife and get frozen yoghurt after, and never got bigger. Of course those days were before protein powder too.


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## sara (Oct 10, 2004)

My PWO 1 Cup Cooked Brown Rice or 3/4 Cup Dry Oats w. egg whites & whey 
My Pre workout 3/4 Cup Brown Rice or 1/2 Cup Dry Oats w. whey and egg whites for the oats pancake


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## Tom_B (Oct 10, 2004)

Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> Ok - Firstly:
> *Woo hoo!!*
> 
> Good on you!  That is what I like to see - you got to get some more meat on you boy!  Targets for your carbs should be 0.5g/pound of your target weight, which is about 155-160 is it not? So you were basically spot on for that (could have had a _little_ more..) At 0.3g/pound for protein 45 to 50g is great!
> ...


Thank you  
lol well my target weight is gonna be 140 - 150, all depend on what my body fat % is like..if it's still reaonably low when I hit 140 and I feel like I've got enough muscle on my for this bulk then I'll go on my cut, but if my body fat is medium, or fairly high I'll go for 150 pounds cause the weight I gained wouldn't have been as much muscle as I'd like, hope that makes sense lol. Basically I'll just let the good old mirrior be my judge.

I know , I know I shouldn't have done cardio, but the skipping rope was just sitting there starring at me   I'll make it up some time during the week and skip a day of cardio, I hope


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 11, 2004)

rock4832 said:
			
		

> and that will also be effective with creatine delivery?


Yes.

Although this is just my opinion, and many people will disagree with me.

(although, just on a side note, insulin is not absolutely essential to creatine uptake... but yes insulin does increase its uptake, but only really it occurs in hugo-hyperinsulinaemic spikes which usually required hugo-disgusting levels of pure dextrose)...

Anyway, you are still going to create a significant insulin response with a modified PWO meal that contains things such as banana and milk in addition to your normal whey +/- a smaller amount of dextrose. 

This is because you get an increased insulin secretion when you combine certain proteins with certain carbohydrates. So the insulin stimuating amino acids in your whey when combined with a carbohydrate will act to synergisticly increase your insulin levels.... I think (if I remember correctly) studies have shown that the combination of the two can infact half the carbohydrate needs to create the hyperinsulinaemia necessary for increased creatine uptake. Also, because milk products alone have a very high insulin index, they will help in insulin stimulation.


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## Rocco32 (Oct 11, 2004)

Thanks for your help! So you think protein, 1 banana, 1cup of skim milk and maybe 1/2 cup of oats would be good post w/o with creatine?


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 11, 2004)

rock4832 said:
			
		

> Thanks for your help! So you think protein, 1 banana, 1cup of skim milk and maybe 1/2 cup of oats would be good post w/o with creatine?



Well, you are 230 pounds right? So you want ~ 115g of carbs and ~60g protein post-workout.

So that is a lot more than you would get from 1 med. banana (~25g carbs), 1 cup milk (16g carbs) and 1/2 cup oats (26g carbs) [total = 67g]... So you might want to increase the oats to 1 cup (52g carbs) and add 25g of dextrose powder or another very high GI carb (add dates to your oats??) so you have a total of ~115g of carbs?


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## BulkMeUp (Oct 11, 2004)

Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> For cardio it depends on the intensity and duration - With HIIT or high intensity cardio I definately feel carbs are required, and a good dose of them as well. Low intensity/slow cardio then it is not so much of an issue.


Hmmm.. from the info on HIIT that i have come accross, it was suggested not to eat before OR after an HIIT session. Hence on my present cut this is my schedule, meal#3 at 3:30-4, HIIT at 5:30-6(no pwo shake)  and meal#4 at 7:30-8. My pwo shake is only on weight training days. Is it suggested i do a pwo shake after HIIT as well?


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## BulkMeUp (Oct 11, 2004)

milliman said:
			
		

> I thought after workout, you had Growth Hormone cursing thru your veins. Barry Sears in his book about the Zone Diet said this too. But he also said if post work out you eat a bunch of high GI carbs, then when your insulin spikes, it snuffs out your growth hormone. He said carbs up to his ratio of 40:30:30 were ok, but beyond that you started to spike the insulin.


  I always thought GH was released during (deep) sleep. the pwo shake was mainly to restore energy stores. Could someone correct me if i am wrong?


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 11, 2004)

BulkMeUp said:
			
		

> Hmmm.. from the info on HIIT that i have come accross, it was suggested not to eat before OR after an HIIT session. Hence on my present cut this is my schedule, meal#3 at 3:30-4, HIIT at 5:30-6(no pwo shake)  and meal#4 at 7:30-8. My pwo shake is only on weight training days. Is it suggested i do a pwo shake after HIIT as well?


Arggg!! No! This is the complete opposite of the correct advice.

HIIT is what it's name suggests - High Intensity Interval Training. High intensity = predominantly anaerobic exercise and hence glucose/glycogen utilising during your workout.

HIIT, when correctly fueled, is a great form of cardio because it creates a highly metabolically active environment - the use of your glycogen stores DURING your workout leads to a much greater post-exercise metabolic upregulation and a greater utilisation of fats AFTER your workout... The duration of which is far superior to moderate intensity cardio! It has also been shown to stimulate anabolism as well... better all round.

BUT - you HAVE to fuel your body correctly! If you do not have a readily supply of energy for this workout then your body will need to form glucose from something - and that something will be amino acids which will drain the pool of amino acids from your muscles! It will also increase your cortisol levels even further and cause a highly catabolic environment. So that means EAT BEFOREHAND!!

Also, due to the use of your glycogen stores HIIT it acts similarly to a weights sessions - and you need to recover these otherwise your weights sessions will suffer in the future... So make sure you re-fuel yourself correctly afterwards.


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 11, 2004)

BulkMeUp said:
			
		

> I always thought GH was released during (deep) sleep. the pwo shake was mainly to restore energy stores. Could someone correct me if i am wrong?


No - exercise also stimulates the release of growth hormone (especially high intensity/resistance type exercise). And yes, what you eat/drink before and after your workout will effect your growth hormone release (along with other hormones). And yes it is also released during sleep, but this is not the only time.


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## Rocco32 (Oct 11, 2004)

Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> Well, you are 230 pounds right? So you want ~ 115g of carbs and ~60g protein post-workout.
> 
> So that is a lot more than you would get from 1 med. banana (~25g carbs), 1 cup milk (16g carbs) and 1/2 cup oats (26g carbs) [total = 67g]... So you might want to increase the oats to 1 cup (52g carbs) and add 25g of dextrose powder or another very high GI carb (add dates to your oats??) so you have a total of ~115g of carbs?


Awesome. Thanks alot Emma!


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## BulkMeUp (Oct 12, 2004)

Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> Arggg!! No! This is the complete opposite of the correct advice
> .


This is where i got the infohttp://www.musclemedia.com/training/hiit.asp#donot


			
				Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> . So that means EAT BEFOREHAND!!
> .


Thanks for the great info Emma. 
So eating solid meal carb+pro 2-2.5hrs before HIIT and a solid carb+pro meal 1hr after HIIT(and no pwo shake) is ok?


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## CowPimp (Oct 12, 2004)

My postworkout meal consists of two scoops of whey and one cup of oats.  However, I eat another meal about 45 minutes after that, which contains protein, carbs, and fat.  So, I don't feel eating .5g of carbs per pound of bodyweight post workout is necessary.


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## Tom_B (Oct 12, 2004)

BulkMeUp said:
			
		

> This is where i got the infohttp://www.musclemedia.com/training/hiit.asp#donot
> 
> Thanks for the great info Emma.
> So eating solid meal carb+pro 2-2.5hrs before HIIT and a solid carb+pro meal 1hr after HIIT(and no pwo shake) is ok?


Well what she told me is to wait at least 40 minutes before hands (since I have time constrants) and then 20 minutes after I'm finish the cardio have my meal.


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## BulkMeUp (Oct 12, 2004)

Thanks Tom. However 40+20+HIIT workout time = about 1.25 hours between meals. Considering i have solid food meals i probably need to have a longer time span. If you are doing solid food meals, maybe you need to consider that to space the meals out.

BTW, i always wanted to ask. Why is there a comma between 'nova' and 'scotia' in your location?


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## Tom_B (Oct 12, 2004)

BulkMeUp said:
			
		

> Thanks Tom. However 40+20+HIIT workout time = about 1.25 hours between meals. Considering i have solid food meals i probably need to have a longer time span. If you are doing solid food meals, maybe you need to consider that to space the meals out.
> 
> BTW, i always wanted to ask. Why is there a comma between 'nova' and 'scotia' in your location?


that was my probem to! it only being 1.25 hours between meals, but thats the way it has to go for me, you could probably wait like and hour and a half before the cardio

as for the comma between Nova and Scotia, I just relized that too...my god I'm stupid to think at the time I was writting it up I thought that it was the right grammer (or whatever it's called)  , well off to fix that before anyone else relizes how dumb I am..


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 12, 2004)

BulkMeUp said:
			
		

> This is where i got the infohttp://www.musclemedia.com/training/hiit.asp#donot
> 
> Thanks for the great info Emma.
> So eating solid meal carb+pro 2-2.5hrs before HIIT and a solid carb+pro meal 1hr after HIIT(and no pwo shake) is ok?


That is bull. You gain no more 'metabolic advantage' by leaving it an hour before you eat than not. Infact, due to the stress this would cause in your body, it would probably send you backwards.

If you want to gain the best advantage from your HIIT (via stimulating growth hormone, stimulating anabolism, working out maximally etc) then treat it like a short, intense weights workout. 

Eat ~1-1.5hr beforehand (some carbs and protein), so you have energy to utilise during your workout. Then have a post-workout shake with carbs and protein. This does not have to have something as large as your normal post-workout shake, but it should have enough to blunt the cortisol response and push you back into anabolism.


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## BulkMeUp (Oct 12, 2004)

Tom_B said:
			
		

> as for the comma between Nova and Scotia, I just relized that too...my god I'm stupid to think at the time I was writting it up I thought that it was the right grammer (or whatever it's called)  , well off to fix that before anyone else relizes how dumb I am..


Dont think you are dumb at all. You know a hell of a lot more about diet/nutrition than most of your pizza-n-burger-n-pop peers.

Also, wouldnt the correct order of your location be - City, Province, Country?   I'm just being annoying. it is understandable the way it is.


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 12, 2004)

Tom_B said:
			
		

> Well what she told me is to wait at least 40 minutes before hands (since I have time constrants) and then 20 minutes after I'm finish the cardio have my meal.



Tom - I suggested that you leave it at least 30 minutes after eating a liquid meal and about 1 hr after a solid meal before you train (weights or cardio) so your body has time to digest the food (both so you have the energy and so you do not throw up).

I then suggested that you try to take your post-workout shake (after your weights/HIIT) pretty soon after your training, I believe I said within about 15 to 20 mins (just because some people feel ill if they chug down a shake straight away) but the sooner the better...


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## BulkMeUp (Oct 12, 2004)

Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> Eat ~1-1.5hr beforehand (some carbs and protein), so you have energy to utilise during your workout. Then have a post-workout shake with carbs and protein. This does not have to have something as large as your normal post-workout shake, but it should have enough to blunt the cortisol response and push you back into anabolism.


Ok, So lets say, 1/2 a scoop(~12g) pro + 1 of the same scoop of ground rolled oats as a pwo shake for HIIT?
My regular shake taken immediately pwo is 1scoop pro+ 1scoop ground rolled oats. (i'am on a cut presently)


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## Tom_B (Oct 12, 2004)

BulkMeUp said:
			
		

> Dont think you are dumb at all. You know a hell of a lot more about diet/nutrition than most of your pizza-n-burger-n-pop peers.
> 
> Also, wouldnt the correct order of your location be - City, Province, Country?  I'm just being annoying. it is understandable the way it is.


lmao  omg I'm such an idiot, I can't believe that's how I wrote it! English isn't my best subject if you can tell (even though I still get high 80's  )
From the looks of things diet/nutrition is all I know, lol maybe instead of trying to be a vet, I should just be a diettician.


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## Tom_B (Oct 12, 2004)

Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> Tom - I suggested that you leave it at least 30 minutes after eating a liquid meal and about 1 hr after a solid meal before you train (weights or cardio) so your body has time to digest the food (both so you have the energy and so you do not throw up).
> 
> I then suggested that you try to take your post-workout shake (after your weights/HIIT) pretty soon after your training, I believe I said within about 15 to 20 mins (just because some people feel ill if they chug down a shake straight away) but the sooner the better...


 o sorry Emma I thought you said at least 40 minutes prior and 20 minutes after for CARDIO. god not only am I stupid I have a bad memory.
Due to time, I don't wait at all after breakfast before hitting the weights, is that bad? BTW i don't feel ill at all for whenever I have a liquid/solid meal so that dosen't matter at all to me.


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## sara (Oct 12, 2004)

If you dont feel sick eating and training right away, I think its ok


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 13, 2004)

Tom_B said:
			
		

> Due to time, I don't wait at all after breakfast before hitting the weights, is that bad? BTW i don't feel ill at all for whenever I have a liquid/solid meal so that dosen't matter at all to me.



Yes, this is not the best thing to do.

As I said before - there are two reasons... The barf factor is only one of them. The main reason is that you want to give your body time to start to digest/absorb that food!! This not only gives you energy to train at a good intensity, but it means you have amino acids and glucose in your blood as you workout, which is one of the key factors required for good muscle growth and recovery.

If you train immediately, you will not have the carbs and proteins in your blood. This means you will be training in a semi-catabolic state from your nights fasting - which causes increase cortisol, decreased growth hormone secretion, increased protein catabolism and poorer recovery. It also means that you will not have adequate energy levels to make the most of your workouts - which is going to decrease your workouts effectiveness. 

You will also slow the digestion of your meal even more - leaving you without energy for even longer!! This is because, as you train, you increase your 'sympathetic tone', which is basically your 'fight and flight' hormones. These causes your gastro-intestinal tract movement to slow down, digestive enzyme release to decreasse and for blood to flow towards your muscles (this is so you can run really quickly to get away from something scary  ).

So, if you can, a solid meal 1hr before you workout is ideal. Otherwise a liquid meal ~30 minutes before training is needed.


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## Tom_B (Oct 13, 2004)

O great...now I have to start waking up earlier!  my precious sleep!
well i guess I wouldn't have to wake up that much earlier if I had a liquid meal for breakfast...any suggestions there? 
My breafasts are usualy 3/4 cup of brown rice, 1 scoop of whey, 1 pear, 1 cup of unsweetned soy milk and 1/2 cup of fiber 1 somehow I think if I mixed all those together in a shake THEN I'd  get the barf factor 
BTW thanks again Emma for the advice!


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## BulkMeUp (Oct 13, 2004)

Tom_B said:
			
		

> From the looks of things diet/nutrition is all I know, lol maybe instead of trying to be a vet, I should just be a diettician.


Studying to be a vet? pay attention in Math class.   .A friend of mine decided to go back to school to become a vets assistant (or something like that). He said they wanted stuff like calculus.   guess it is not all about being with cute cuddly animals all the time.


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## Tom_B (Oct 13, 2004)

lol I know, I have to stat taking all science and maths next year, god I hate math with a passion  I loathe it!   Why can't it just be about being with the cute cuddly animals? 
pft stupid peoples and their "requirements"


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## LAM (Oct 13, 2004)

BulkMeUp said:
			
		

> Studying to be a vet? pay attention in Math class.   .A friend of mine decided to go back to school to become a vets assistant (or something like that). He said they wanted stuff like calculus.   guess it is not all about being with cute cuddly animals all the time.



you need to know math for sure...you will have to take calculus based physics


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## Tom_B (Oct 13, 2004)

I'm gonna have to take all that fun stuff 
I can stand the science part of it but I can't stand math! I usually have to get my extrmely smart friend (get's 95%+ on all his subjects  the kids a friggin genius, thank god I know him  ) to explain everything to me after the class, I can just hope that he'll be in my classes next year.
I was thinking maybe instead of being a vet (since it's gonna be alot of money and it's 7 years worth!..espically if I move out at the end of the year and am on bad terms with my parents..) I could do something with diet/nutrition/training but I think that ship has passed since I didn't take physical education this year, o well I love animals  , I've always wanted to be a vet since I was a kid, the only hard part will be when I have to put them down  put I know it's for the best I guess, unless someone jsut comes to me and says "we decided we don't want a dog, put it down" if that ever happened I'd take the dog for myself  screw people like that, it amazes (correct spelling  lol) me how cruel some people can be to animals, it's disgusting.


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 13, 2004)

BulkMeUp said:
			
		

> Ok, So lets say, 1/2 a scoop(~12g) pro + 1 of the same scoop of ground rolled oats as a pwo shake for HIIT?
> My regular shake taken immediately pwo is 1scoop pro+ 1scoop ground rolled oats. (i'am on a cut presently)



Sorry if you have told me before (brain fog), but how much do you weigh and what is your goal weight??

And would it be a good guess to say that scoop gives you about ~30g (1/3 cup) oats??


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 13, 2004)

Tom_B said:
			
		

> O great...now I have to start waking up earlier!  my precious sleep! well i guess I wouldn't have to wake up that much earlier if I had a liquid meal for breakfast...any suggestions there?  My breafasts are usualy 3/4 cup of brown rice, 1 scoop of whey, 1 pear, 1 cup of unsweetned soy milk and 1/2 cup of fiber 1


Hmmm.... Ok. Keep the whey - the rapid digestion is a needed at this time. 

The soy-milk should be fine too... Although I would, if you can stand it, swap to a real milk product.  Highly anabolic and gets your body 'primed' for growth.

The pear, probably not the best idea, it is very slow digesting... but some berries would be ok though and would be nice blended into a shake (they are also really high in anti-oxidants and would help with workout recovery). 

I would leave out the fibre 1 and brown rice (  + too much fibre = too slow to digest ). Instead you could add some (horror of horrors) ground quick oats (not instant - these have added sugar).

As for quantity - something about 2/3 the size of your post-workout meal should suffice (as long as you make sure your post-workout meal is large enough). So, something with ~50g carbs and ~30g protein.

Maybe 30g oats (18g carbs), 80g blueberries (~9g carbs), 200ml Milk (12.8g carbs, 9.6g protein) (or fat-free/sugar free yoghurt of equivant macro ratios) and 0.75 scoops whey (20g protein).

Blend and drink.


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## Tom_B (Oct 13, 2004)

Thanks Emma! that's perfect!  (except for the blueberries lol, I have an extreme allergic allergy, and can die if I eat any .)
I can stomach milk milk, it's just that we don't have any low carb milk here, the closest thing is unsweetned soy milk, but is the sugar in milk good for when your bulking, and when I'm cutting go back to the unsweetned soy milk?
I was never sure...are you suppos to cook the oats before adding it to the shake? I'm using the instant regular type with no sugar added, same amount of sugar as rolled oats


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## sara (Oct 13, 2004)

hmmm.. My pre-workout/breakfast is 3/4 cup brown rice with eggwhites and few fish oil caps.. Post workout: 3/4 cup dry oats with whey


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 14, 2004)

Tom_B said:
			
		

> Thanks Emma! that's perfect!  (except for the blueberries lol, I have an extreme allergic allergy, and can die if I eat any .)


Hmmm... Ok, well maybe it is best you swap them for something else then! Death would be a poor start to the morning!  



> I can stomach milk milk, it's just that we don't have any low carb milk here, the closest thing is unsweetned soy milk, but is the sugar in milk good for when your bulking, and when I'm cutting go back to the unsweetned soy milk?


Look - milk (as with fruits) is one of these things that gets a bad reputation on forums.... Yes, it has lactose in it and yes this is a 'sugar' (a disaccharide formed from glucose and galactose) but it is not as 'evil' as everyone thinks. 

In your situation - milk is excellent. It is a great source of carbohydrates and proteins. And the lactose is one of the things that makes milk *highly* anabolic. So it is not going to do you any damage (unless you are lactose intolerant).

If you are concerned, then have the soy milk pre-workout but stick to the real milk post.



> I was never sure...are you suppos to cook the oats before adding it to the shake? I'm using the instant regular type with no sugar added, same amount of sugar as rolled oats


If you get rolled oats (and instant oats are simply rolled oats that have been rolled thinly and chopped up) then you do not have to cook them. They have already been steamed during the rolling process.


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## BulkMeUp (Oct 14, 2004)

Emma-Leigh said:
			
		

> Sorry if you have told me before (brain fog), but how much do you weigh and what is your goal weight??
> 
> And would it be a good guess to say that scoop gives you about ~30g (1/3 cup) oats??


No Prob. Present weight 168, height 6'. No specific goal weight. am trying to loose some fat around the middle before i resume a bulk. Waist measured around navel is 35" (down from 37" at end aug, i'm what they call skinny-fat *yuck*   ) and I hope to get it down to 30"-32" if that sounds reasonable. However my dumbass electronic scale bf %age has not changed. So am going by the mirror.

Yes the protein scoop would give ~35g rolled (ground in a blender) oats. FYI same scoop of 35g contains 25g protein.

Meal sked :meal#3 (solid food, chicken+carbs+fats)at 3:30-4, HIIT at 5:30-6 and meal#4 at 7:30-8(solid food, tuna+carbs+fats) and Meal #5 at 10:30(cottage cheese+1tbsp olive oil). Bed.


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## BulkMeUp (Oct 14, 2004)

Tom_B said:
			
		

> Thanks Emma! that's perfect!  (except for the blueberries lol, I have an extreme allergic allergy, and can die if I eat any .)
> I can stomach milk milk, it's just that we don't have any low carb milk here,


oop... death by blueberries!! never heard of that before. dont want that to happen   

why the concern about the carbs in the milk? you are on a bulk, so it really shouldnt matter.


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## BulkMeUp (Oct 14, 2004)

Tom_B said:
			
		

> lol I know, I have to stat taking all science and maths next year, god I hate math with a passion  I loathe it!   Why can't it just be about being with the cute cuddly animals?
> pft stupid peoples and their "requirements"


As a vet, you will rarely see animals in their cute n cuddle state. You are most likely to get them in their worst state, to be fixed. So you would have to toughen up your senses and emotions to deal with and help to fix them.


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## Tom_B (Oct 14, 2004)

I made the dhake this morning without any type of fruit in it, it was alright, was a little lumpy from the oats though 
What I'll start doing Emma is using skim milk for everything, I just need to get rid of my soy milk first. The reason I'm concerned about them is because there not good on a cut so I figured they wouldn't be good on a bulk either, and I could replace the extra calories with something else.
lol one can dream that being a vet eill be all about vute cuddly animals !


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## aztecwolf (Oct 14, 2004)

I thought i remember a little while back LAM saying something about if you do a spike pwo then you are very carb/insulin sensitve for awhile after the spike, so you would not want to have carbs in your solid meal after an insulin spike pwo, so would you just want pro/fat after the big insulin spike?


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 14, 2004)

BulkMeUp said:
			
		

> No Prob. Present weight 168, height 6'. No specific goal weight. am trying to loose some fat around the middle before i resume a bulk. Waist measured around navel is 35" (down from 37" at end aug, i'm what they call skinny-fat *yuck*   ) and I hope to get it down to 30"-32" if that sounds reasonable. However my dumbass electronic scale bf %age has not changed. So am going by the mirror.
> 
> Yes the protein scoop would give ~35g rolled (ground in a blender) oats. FYI same scoop of 35g contains 25g protein.
> 
> Meal sked :meal#3 (solid food, chicken+carbs+fats)at 3:30-4, HIIT at 5:30-6 and meal#4 at 7:30-8(solid food, tuna+carbs+fats) and Meal #5 at 10:30(cottage cheese+1tbsp olive oil). Bed.



Ok.... So with ~35g of oats this is going to be ~22g of carbs and ~12g of protein... I don't know... My thinking (and you can disagree with me here) is that (if you do not mind me saying), you are doing this all wrong.

Even though you are on  what you are calling a 'cut' I would treat your situation differently. You are also not trying to 'cut' per say... You are trying to alter your body composition... If you lost a lot of weight you would not only be 'skinny' - you would be boney too!  So there is no point in starving yourself, especially after your workouts - you are still trying to promote anabolism so you can build muscle tissue as well.

So I would increase your post-workout meal size. Pre and post workout are the last places you want to cut calories! These are what fuel your workouts and allow you to recover afterwards - so this is what is going to help you burn off the fat and retain your lean muscle mass.

Stick to the lower GI stuff if you are more comfotable with that, but it is a waste to loose your bet anabolic window to 21g of carbs! If you are working out at a good intensity your nutrient partitioning will be such that incoming energ will go to your muscles. You don't get a lot of de-novo lipogenesis with short term carb overload feeding at the worst of times (I am talking 500g-700g of carbs, in one go, with no energy depletion beforehand), let alone when you are highly insulin sensitive /carbohydrate responsive like straight after a workout. It would mean ~80g of carbs and ~48g of protein. Even if you aim for 60g carbs and 30g whey... That is at least better than what you are doing.

After your HIIT, I would probably still have more than you are having. Consider ~0.33-0.4g of carbs and 0.2-0.25g of protein/pound of goal weight - as you do not have a goal weight, then maybe you could aim for the lower side of these figures....

This is especially because you are not eating anything until a good few hours later as well.

I would also aim to keep that pre-workout meal on later bit of it's timeframe as well - just to keep that meal in the 1-1.5hr window before your workout.


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## BulkMeUp (Oct 15, 2004)

Thanks emma. I will work with your pwo shake suggestions and incorporate it.
One more question. When i worked out my cut diet, it sorta of fell into the isocaloric range. However this calc did not contain the pwo shake. Should the shake be taken into the macro consideration or left out?


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## BulkMeUp (Oct 15, 2004)

aztecwolf said:
			
		

> I thought i remember a little while back LAM saying something about if you do a spike pwo then you are very carb/insulin sensitve for awhile after the spike, so you would not want to have carbs in your solid meal after an insulin spike pwo, so would you just want pro/fat after the big insulin spike?


I always thought low GI carbs in a solid meal are required within 1hr of completing exercise. This was in addition to the pwo shake.


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## LAM (Oct 15, 2004)

aztecwolf said:
			
		

> I thought i remember a little while back LAM saying something about if you do a spike pwo then you are very carb/insulin sensitve for awhile after the spike, so you would not want to have carbs in your solid meal after an insulin spike pwo, so would you just want pro/fat after the big insulin spike?



after a insulin spike, insulin sensitivity is decreased for several hours.  so the carbs used in the meal following a spike should be very low GI and keep the portion sensible...


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## Emma-Leigh (Oct 15, 2004)

BulkMeUp said:
			
		

> One more question. When i worked out my cut diet, it sorta of fell into the isocaloric range. However this calc did not contain the pwo shake. Should the shake be taken into the macro consideration or left out?



Food is food. Just because it is after your workout doesn't mean you are not getting calories!   Include it.


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