# Clenbuterol Or ECA Stack



## musotechy (Jul 25, 2004)

Hi All,


Just wondering what the preferred/best method of fat loss would be between Clenbuterol or ECA stack (Ephridrine, Caffiene & Aspirin)

I understand that the ECA stack is faster acting and that Clenbuterol is slower acting but also has 'Protien Sparing' effects.

I am using the ECA stack now but, have to be honest that I don't really like the way it can make me feel.

Any info will be much appreciated.

Many Thanks


muso


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## trHawT (Jul 25, 2004)

By itself, compared to ECA, Clenbuterol would be worse as far as sides are concerned.  Clenbuterol is a bronchiodilator, used to treat asthma patients. It actually raises your body temp.  Will make you shake and have a rapid heartbeat.  Clen will definitely burn more fat alone.  It also has a slight anabolic effect, great for a cutting diet.  However, why don't you try Clen for two days on/Ephedrine two days off?  Try it for four weeks @ 50 - 100 mcg's.  Gradually increase in 25 mcg increments. You have to build a tolerance for Clen.  I started @ 50 mcg, and I worked up to 100/150 mcg's.  I wouldn't advise going over 100 mcg's for the four-week period.  I also heard it raises your metabolism by around 10%.


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## musotechy (Jul 25, 2004)

Hi,


Thanks for the reply, I think I will dable with it a little, see what works for me.


Fanx


muso


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## Monolith (Jul 25, 2004)

Clen isnt anabolic.


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## LAM (Jul 25, 2004)

trHawT said:
			
		

> By itself, compared to ECA, Clenbuterol would be worse as far as sides are concerned.  Clenbuterol is a bronchiodilator, used to treat asthma patients. It actually raises your body temp.  Will make you shake and have a rapid heartbeat.  Clen will definitely burn more fat alone.  It also has a slight anabolic effect, great for a cutting diet.  However, why don't you try Clen for two days on/Ephedrine two days off?  Try it for four weeks @ 50 - 100 mcg's.  Gradually increase in 25 mcg increments. You have to build a tolerance for Clen.  I started @ 50 mcg, and I worked up to 100/150 mcg's.  I wouldn't advise going over 100 mcg's for the four-week period.  I also heard it raises your metabolism by around 10%.



clen has only been proven to be anabolic in animals...and the sides are all dependant on the person.  some people shake more from ECA than from clen


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## JLB001 (Jul 25, 2004)

I would say to stick to the ECA stack.  Gives you about the same effect as clen.


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## trHawT (Jul 25, 2004)

Monolith said:
			
		

> Clen isnt anabolic.



"Clenbuterol has two secondary effects that are beneficial to athletes and
bodybuilders. The first is a strong anti-catabolic effect, which means it
decreases the rate at which protein is used up in the muscle cells, consequently
causing hypertrophy of muscle cells (with proper training, of course). Clen
accomplishes this by the stimulation of both type 2 and 3 beta-receptors.
3-beta receptors are more abundant in livestock than in humans. This explains
the pronounced anabolic effects on livestock as opposed to humans."

Animals have more of the beta-3's, in which Clen has more of an ANABOLIC effect on them than humans.  Anabolic = muscle building.  Androgen = increased masculine characteristics.  

I'm surprised that some don't search before they post.  Yes!  Clenbuterol is slightly anabolic in humans.


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## trHawT (Jul 25, 2004)

Beat me to it, LAM.  lol.  Watching 'The Butterfly Effect.'  Can't pay attention.


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## trHawT (Jul 25, 2004)

Musotechy, you can PM me for more info.  I have a safe cycle set up by a trainer.


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## LAM (Jul 25, 2004)

trHawT said:
			
		

> "Clenbuterol has two secondary effects that are beneficial to athletes and
> bodybuilders. The first is a strong anti-catabolic effect, which means it
> decreases the rate at which protein is used up in the muscle cells, consequently
> causing hypertrophy of muscle cells (with proper training, of course). Clen
> ...



clen is not anabolic in humans.  there is not one published medical study that states so...


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## trHawT (Jul 25, 2004)

LAM, do you have any medical publications saying it's not anabolic in humans?  I'd be really interested!


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## trHawT (Jul 25, 2004)

http://67.18.108.244//showthread.php?t=23808  Good read!


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## Supermans Daddy (Jul 25, 2004)

Plain and simple bro , ECA weeks 1/2 and 5/6, Clen weeks 3/4 and7/8. That works flat out. If you are have'n a hard time wit tha ECA try Yohimbe ( I'm sure thats spelled wrong) some times called YCA, works, but not like ECA.If you wanna put some ass kick'n power to burn fat  , one thing that I found to work fly is Triacana . It's safer than T3, and it kicks a fat burn'n stack into over drive QUICK !!!!!!!!!!!!! I have as we speak been use'n T3 for tha first time and I gotta admit it's tha bomb , you just gotta be REAL careful. But tha effects are tha whip!  How that helps ya or at least gives ya some options. Peace and Love.


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## Monolith (Jul 25, 2004)

Clen is extremely anti-catabolic, which people often confuse as being increased anabolism.


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## trHawT (Jul 25, 2004)

Yes, Clenbuterol is anti catabolic.  Catabolic simply means "characterized by destructive metabolism."  I still say Clenbuterol is anabolic in animals.


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## Mudge (Jul 25, 2004)

It is claimed to be a cortisol blocker of sorts, never looked for supporting research myself.


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## Monolith (Jul 25, 2004)

trHawT said:
			
		

> Yes, Clenbuterol is anti catabolic. Catabolic simply means "characterized by destructive metabolism." I still say Clenbuterol is anabolic in animals.


 If i could find some coherency in that statement i might attempt a reply... but as such, all i can say is:  ok.


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## Pirate! (Jul 25, 2004)

In the nutritional sciences, carbohydrates (CHO is the proper abbreviation) and fat (lipids) are considered "protein sparing" because when amounts of CHO and Lipids are sufficient, all the protein can be used to build new tissue instead of being used for energy. Therefore, CHO and Lipids are considered anabolic--since they increase the amount of tissue growth. They are also considered anti-catabolic because the body doesn't have to break down existing tissue--be it adipose or lean body mass--to provide for the body's energy needs. Drugs are similar in that the ones that effect hormone levels (like cortisol) tend to be 1) anabolic and anti-catabolic or 2) catabolic. Some level of catabolism and anabolism is always going on--it is a continuous cycle. Anything that slows the rate of catabolism is therefore anabolic, because the ratio of anabolism to catabolism is shifted in favor of anabolism. Sorry that was so convoluted. It is really quite simple, though.


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## Monolith (Jul 25, 2004)

Youre mish-mashing the definitions of catabolic and anabolic together in what looks like an attempt to make them both mean the same thing.  No matter how hard you try to subvert the language, clen is not anabolic.  Refer to LAM's post ^^ mentioning no study _ever_ finding clen to have an anabolic effect in human skeletal muscle.


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## trHawT (Jul 26, 2004)

Monolith said:
			
		

> If i could find some coherency in that statement i might attempt a reply... but as such, all i can say is:  ok.




See above post from Pirate.  Some need to know basic definitions before posting.  I think it shows that Clen could be anti catabolic and anabolic.

Here's a post by Mudge:

Posted by: Mudge

Clenbuterol: 

Description: Is available in 10 - 20 mcg tablets or in the .016 mg/gram Ventapulmin Vet variety. Clenbuterol is known as a sympathomimetic. These hormones are taken to mimic adrenaline and noradrenaline in the human body. Clenbuterol is a selective beta-2 agonist that is used to stimulate the beta-receptors in fat and muscle tissue in the body. Clenbuterol exhibits most of its effects on the stimulation of both type 2 and 3 beta-receptors. Clenbuterol is really one of bodybuilding's most misunderstood performance enhancement drugs. It is true that it is effective in helping to burn bodyfat but it is often been stated that clenbuterol is effective in causing anabolic gains and has in times even been compared to some of the weaker anabolic steroids. Books such as the World Anabolic Review, 1996, by P. Grunding and M. Bachmann state incorrectly that, "its effects, however, can by all means be compared to those of steroids. Similar to a combination of Winstrol Depot and Oxandrolone...." These statements are inaccurate and misleading to say the least. A lot of these claims as to the anabolic effects of clenbuterol are derived from studying the effects of clenbuterol on livestock. Clenbuterol is effective in increasing muscle mass and decreasing fat loss in animals. The problem with the variation in anabolic effects between humans and livestock is that livestock have an abundance of the type 3 beta receptors whereas humans have little if any of the type 3 beta receptors. These beta-3 receptors increases insulin secretion and sensitivity, causing more glucose and amino acids to be transported into skeletal muscle thus causing the anabolic effects that we, humans, just aren't seeing. As Dan Duchaine stated in his Muscle Media article on clenbuterol, "In those animal research studies showing an anabolic effect from clenbuterol, it's my guess the anabolism happens specifically when the beta2 receptor stops working. At that point, the beta3 increases and causes the anabolic effect through insulin mechanisms." Since humans, again, have either very little or no beta-3 receptors, there is no chance of this anabolic effect. Just another of the studies where everyone assumed that what works in animals must work in humans. This is just simply not the case with clenbuterol. Clenbuterol does work effectively as a fat burner though. It does this by slight increases in the body temperature. With each degree that the temperature in your body is raised from the use of clenbuterol, you will burn up approximately an extra 5% of maintenance calories. This makes it effective as a fat burner. Your body will fight this by cutting down on the amount of active thyroid in the body as well as through beta-receptor down regulation, which explains why you only have a limited effective period to take clenbuterol. While I am on the subject of beta-receptor down regulation, I would like to dispose of another myth. This involves the two on/two off cycling theory that I believe was originated by Bill Phillips in the Anabolic Reference Guide and has somehow made it's was into every other steroid book since then including the WAR and Physical Enhancement with an Edge. The two on-two off theory simply will not work because of one main reason: the half life of clenbuterol. This 2-on/2-off idea was a THEORY ONLY, not by a doctor or scientist, and not based on specific knowledge of clenbuterol, but derived by imitation from other drug's with shorter half lives. 

Clenbuterol has been reported as having a half life of about 2 days, but that is not actually correct, since it has biphasic elimination, with the half-life of the rapid phase being about 10 hours, and the slower phase being several days. Supposedly, this is one of the reasons the FDA never approved clenbuterol as an anti-asthmatic drug...the FDA frowns on drugs with long half-lives if drugs with more normal half-lives are available. So with a 2-on/2-off cycle you never have time to get enough of the clenbuterol out of your system for this theory to be reasonable. In actuality, it probably hasn't even dropped to 50% of your peak concentration before you are taking the drug again. With this all taken into account, there is no reason to think that this cycling would significantly reduce the problem of receptor desensitization. A more reasonable approach would be either one week on, one week off, or alternately, two weeks on two weeks off. The two week cycle has the disadvantage of a "crash" period afterwards. This crash period can be helped with the use of ephedrine to lessen the lethargy that you will experience. 

If you are interested in taking clenbuterol for anything other than fat loss then you might as well stay away from this compound. There is a lot of talk as to how clenbuterol compares to ephedrine as well. Most "experts" feel that clen gives a better bang for the buck than the ECA stack. It should be noted that clenbuterol???s results and effects are much shorter lived. They work through very similar mechanisms. Both products stimulate the beta-receptors but clenbuterol seems to be a more refined version, called a second generation beta-agonist drug, than ephedrine. Clenbuterol targets the proper receptors, being the beta-2 and 3 receptors than ephedrine more specifically which should in theory make clenbuterol more effective of a fat burner. Again, most of the so called "experts" say that clenbuterol is more effective than ephedrine. I, personally, get worse results with clen vs. the good old ECA stack. Clenbuterol also didn't blunt my hunger either and I ate more while taking it as well. I also seem to get much better effects out of cytomel as a fat burner as well. Even better than the ECA stack or clenbuterol. But, again, that is my personal opinion. Effective Dose: 80-140 mcgs. / day in split doses throughout the day. Anything over 140 mcg a day is overkill since the beta receptors can only take so much of a product and then more is just wasteful. 

Street Price: $.50 - 1.00 / tab. Fairly inexpensive in Mexico though. Spiropent is currently going for about $7.50/box, Novegam for $5.25/box, and Oxyflux for about $3.30/box. 

Effective Dose: A few drops under the tongue and not used for but a few weeks at a time. 

Street Price: Not a clue. Too hard to find. Even if I could find it I would not buy it. 


Mono, I hope this helps.  How do you think horses win shows?  Hint, hint.


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## trHawT (Jul 26, 2004)

Monolith, show us a study that shows that Clen is not anabolic in humans or animals.  Dude, how can you go against science?  Pirate explained above.


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## trHawT (Jul 26, 2004)

PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> In the nutritional sciences, carbohydrates (CHO is the proper abbreviation) and fat (lipids) are considered "protein sparing" because when amounts of CHO and Lipids are sufficient, all the protein can be used to build new tissue instead of being used for energy. Therefore, CHO and Lipids are considered anabolic--since they increase the amount of tissue growth. They are also considered anti-catabolic because the body doesn't have to break down existing tissue--be it adipose or lean body mass--to provide for the body's energy needs. Drugs are similar in that the ones that effect hormone levels (like cortisol) tend to be 1) anabolic and anti-catabolic or 2) catabolic. Some level of catabolism and anabolism is always going on--it is a continuous cycle. Anything that slows the rate of catabolism is therefore anabolic, because the ratio of anabolism to catabolism is shifted in favor of anabolism. Sorry that was so convoluted. It is really quite simple, though.




Explained well!  Damn.


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## Pirate! (Jul 26, 2004)

trHawT said:
			
		

> Explained well!  Damn.


 Understood well. Explained poorly. I am a nutrition major (and late for class right now!). They teach that Carbohydrates (CHO) are anabolic simply because eating enough reduces catabolism, and therefore promotes the building of new tissue. It is as simple as that. Clen is obviously not nearly as anabolic as steroids in humans. It may not be more anabolic than CHO, but by definition anabolism is: "The phase of metabolism in which simple substances are synthesized into the complex materials of living tissue". Anything that supports this process is anabolic. If you were on the same diet and exercise routine without clen, your body would synthesize less lean tissue (muscle) since you are on reduced calories. Take the same diet and routine and add clen, and your body would synthesize more lean tissue than without the clen. In this since, it has anabolic properites--though not like steroids. I have to go...


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## LAM (Jul 26, 2004)

trHawT said:
			
		

> Monolith, show us a study that shows that Clen is not anabolic in humans or animals.  Dude, how can you go against science?  Pirate explained above.



you could search for a medical study for the next year that does not disprove the anabolic properties of Vitamin E, yet that does not mean that is is anabolic.

clenubeterol is used worldwide expect for the US.  don't you think if scientist found that clen was extrememly anabolic in animals they would attempt to find a dosage that is anabolic in humans ? well they have not, and for a reason..

Vitamin C also decreases baseline cortisol levels but it would never be called an anabolic agent.  it's just a play on words...


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## trHawT (Jul 26, 2004)

PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> Understood well. Explained poorly. I am a nutrition major (and late for class right now!). They teach that Carbohydrates (CHO) are anabolic simply because eating enough reduces catabolism, and therefore promotes the building of new tissue. It is as simple as that. Clen is obviously not nearly as anabolic as steroids in humans. It may not be more anabolic than CHO, but by definition anabolism is: "The phase of metabolism in which simple substances are synthesized into the complex materials of living tissue". Anything that supports this process is anabolic. If you were on the same diet and exercise routine without clen, your body would synthesize less lean tissue (muscle) since you are on reduced calories. Take the same diet and routine and add clen, and your body would synthesize more lean tissue than without the clen. In this since, it has anabolic properites--though not like steroids. I have to go...



Agreed.  Everything seems to be relative/opinionated on fitness forums.  One person will say one thing, then the other says something in opposition.  O well.  Thanks.  Are you getting a B.S.?  Registered Dietician?


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## Monolith (Jul 26, 2004)

trHawT said:
			
		

> See above post from Pirate. Some need to know basic definitions before posting. I think it shows that Clen could be anti catabolic and anabolic.
> 
> Here's a post by Mudge:
> 
> ...


 Did you even read what you just posted?

 Either youre stupider than i first realized, or youre a troll.  Either way, id be much obliged if youd simply fuck off back into oblivion.


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## trHawT (Jul 26, 2004)

Yes, I've read it a few times.  I just want you to be informed on some BASIC info. regarding to Clenbuterol.  Have you even taken it?  Don't see how you could form an opinion.  Are you ok?  Why do you get so upset?  Chill, dude.  Why can't we agree to disagree?  Grow up!


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## Monolith (Jul 26, 2004)

trHawT said:
			
		

> Yes, I've read it a few times. I just want you to be informed on some BASIC info. regarding to Clenbuterol. Have you even taken it? Don't see how you could form an opinion. Are you ok? Why do you get so upset? Chill, dude. Why can't we agree to disagree? Grow up!


'

 When its a matter of opinion, its _fabulous_ to "agree to disagree."  When its a matter of ignorance vs logic its not.  In cases like that, the word to describe you isnt "opinionated," its "stupid."

 Since i have nothing better to do at the moment, let me wrap this up:

 Clen has never been shown to be anabolic in human skeletal muscle.  _Ever_.

 Clen is anabolic in other species, i.e. horses.

 Because clen is very much anti-catabolic in humans, and its been shown to be anabolic in non-human myocytes, people immediately started jumping to the conclusion that it was anabolic in humans.  It's not.  You can bitch and scream about how you just have a different "opinion" about it all day, but in the end, the majority of people - including the scientific community - will laugh in your face.


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## trHawT (Jul 26, 2004)

To wrap it up, where are the studies to show that it's not anabolic in humans?  You finally admit that Clenbuterol is anabolic in animals, which almost everyone knows.  Where's this scientific community?  Are you joking?  I'm sure most people are on here to learn and take in/take part in subjective criticism.  If this is a scientific community, where are the credentials?  Nobody will laugh in anyone's face.  DONE with this thread.


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## trHawT (Jul 26, 2004)

Monolith said:
			
		

> Clen isnt anabolic.




Is it not?


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## Monolith (Jul 26, 2004)

trHawT said:
			
		

> To wrap it up, where are the studies to show that it's not anabolic in humans? You finally admit that Clenbuterol is anabolic in animals, which almost everyone knows. Where's this scientific community? Are you joking? I'm sure most people are on here to learn and take in/take part in subjective criticism. If this is a scientific community, where are the credentials? Nobody will laugh in anyone's face. DONE with this thread.


 Sorry, i didnt realize you were starting a thread on how anabolic clenbuterol is in syrian hamsters on a bodybuilding website.  Silly me, i should have known better.  Oversimplification for the oversimple, right?


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## trHawT (Jul 26, 2004)

Yep.  Consider the source.


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## Mudge (Jul 26, 2004)

trHawT said:
			
		

> Monolith, show us a study that shows that Clen is not anabolic in humans or animals.  Dude, how can you go against science?  Pirate explained above.



I hardly think science has looked much at clen for people with wasting diseases.


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## Pirate! (Jul 26, 2004)

trHawT said:
			
		

> Agreed.  Everything seems to be relative/opinionated on fitness forums.  One person will say one thing, then the other says something in opposition.  O well.  Thanks.  Are you getting a B.S.?  Registered Dietician?


 B.S. in Nutrition, not going to register because it is not my career choice. Lam is right about it being subjective. In the body building community, clen would not be considered anabolic. In the nutritional sciences, it would be addressed in the ways it has both catbolic and anti-catabolic properties. Clen has highly catabolic properties (in the nutritional sciences). Catabolism is defined as: "reactions in which large molecules are broken down to smaller ones. Catabolic reactions usually release energy". Clen catabolizes fat big time. In BB we talk about catabolism in reference to muscle breakdown, but it applies to fat too (scientifically speaking). So, in BB terms we say it is anti-catabolic because it spares muscle breakdown. As far as science terminology is concerned, Clen is more of a catabolic agent because if you hold all other factors constant (diet, exercise, rest, etc.) and add clen, the net result would be increased breakdown of tissue (fat in this case). Clen has both catabolic (breakdown of fat) and anti-catabolic (preservation of muscle) properies. It is not anabolic in the steroid since. But, since it causes the body to use more fat for it's energy, it is protein sparing. This allows the protein ingested to be used to build new tissue (anabolism)--and therefore has anabolic properties, just as protein has anabolic properties. If you don't believe protein has anabolic properties--and is therefore anabolic--cut it out of your diet for a few weeks and post your results. I'd like to see if your protein intake affects your body's ability to build new tissue.


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## Monolith (Jul 26, 2004)

PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> B.S. in Nutrition, not going to register because it is not my career choice. Lam is right about it being subjective. In the body building community, clen would not be considered anabolic. In the nutritional sciences, it would be addressed in the ways it has both catbolic and anti-catabolic properties. Clen has highly catabolic properties (in the nutritional sciences). Catabolism is defined as: "reactions in which large molecules are broken down to smaller ones. Catabolic reactions usually release energy". Clen catabolizes fat big time. In BB we talk about catabolism in reference to muscle breakdown, but it applies to fat too (scientifically speaking). So, in BB terms we say it is anti-catabolic because it spares muscle breakdown. As far as science terminology is concerned, Clen is more of a catabolic agent because if you hold all other factors constant (diet, exercise, rest, etc.) and add clen, the net result would be increased breakdown of tissue (fat in this case). Clen has both catabolic (breakdown of fat) and anti-catabolic (preservation of muscle) properies. It is not anabolic in the steroid since. But, since it causes the body to use more fat for it's energy, it is protein sparing. This allows the protein ingested to be used to build new tissue (anabolism)--and therefore has anabolic properties, just as protein has anabolic properties. If you don't believe protein has anabolic properties--and is therefore anabolic--cut it out of your diet for a few weeks and post your results. I'd like to see if your protein intake affects your body's ability to build new tissue.


 Well... you could just argue that protein is only the substrate which the catabolic/anabolic process of weight training utilizes.  And on the same token, you could even argue that dairy queen's reese's swirl is anabolic, because it increases fat mass. 

 But i see what youre saying.  I think there's just been some confusion between the common definition of catabolic/anabolic on various forums (relating specifically to skeletal muscle), and the multi-tissue effect youre talking about (relating to overall increase or decrease in body mass).


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## Pirate! (Jul 26, 2004)

Exactly Monolith!


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## underslungload (Nov 24, 2005)

*how much ephridrine do you take .. 8mg  etc*

hi im on eca stack but its not doing any thing for me wot is your dose


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## Tha Don (Nov 24, 2005)

why not search "ECA stack" in the supplements forum, and you will find your answer without the need to update ancient threads


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## Tough Old Man (Nov 24, 2005)

musotechy said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> 
> 
> Just wondering what the preferred/best method of fat loss would be between Clenbuterol or ECA stack (Ephridrine, Caffiene & Aspirin)
> ...


None of the above. Try a fucking diet and some cardio.


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## Bazooka Tooth (Nov 25, 2005)

Toughy can help again?? What happened with the job? havent been on in a while....anyways, cool!


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## Curlingcadys (Nov 25, 2005)

you guys (besides young d) realize this thread is a year old right?


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