# blurred vision???



## Tha Don (Jun 26, 2006)

i swear my vision is getting worse, i'm having problems focusing when i'm reading, and just in general it seems to be getting blurry, my guess is its tamoxifen as i've been running 20mg ED throughout my current cycle, i was meant to finish this week and stay on it for 3 weeks pct, but i've obviously been forced to drop it

could either test, var or letro be causing me eye problems? or is it almoast certainly the nolva, eyes look fine, and feel fine, vision just seem to be getting worse, as i recall tamoxifen can effect the eyes in 3 ways, 2 of these are temporary conditions and will return to normal once treatment has ceased, but one of these is a permenant change, i'm kind of worried, this is probably the one thing i feared the most (if anyone has seen my posts regarding nolva they'd know i will try to avoid the stuff at all costs) and its happened!

anything i can do?


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## Tha Don (Jun 26, 2006)

*Tamoxifen and Your Eyes*
by Dana Isherwood

The insert that comes with tamoxifen states under the heading of WARNINGS "visual disturbance including corneal changes, cataracts and retinopathy have been reported in patients receiving NOLVADEX" (tamoxifen citrate). Although information is provided under the heading of ADVERSE REACTIONS, ocular toxicity is not listed. This raises three very important questions:

Are visual disturbances a rare event?
Do they occur at low doses (i.e., 20 mg/day)? and
If they occur, are they reversible?
During 1978 to 1990, only six publications; and eight patients with ocular toxicity were reported in the English language literature, thus suggesting that this adverse side effect is either a rare event or underreported. That it can occur at low doses is documented. In Pavlidis et al [Cancer, Vol. 69, No. 12, pp. 2961-2964 (1993)], researchers reported that out of 63 patients receiving 20 mg/day for 5 to 51 months, 4 patients (6%) developed *decreased visual acuity, macular edema, and retinal opacities. **Discontinuation of the drug resulted in a reversal of the decreased visual acuity and macular edema, but the retinal opacities remained.*

At the American Association for Cancer Research annual meeting in San Francisco April 10-13, 1994, researchers from the University Hospital in Zurich, Switzerland, reported that not only does ocular toxicity occur at Low doses, but that the reversibility of visual symptoms is dependent on total cumulative dose. Twenty patients with visual symptoms; caused by tamoxifen were studied. Results showed that in 85% of patients deterioration of vision was the first symptom. Corneal, retinal and optic nerve abnormalities were reported in 60% of patients on less than 10 grams in total, 20% of patients on less than 100 grams in total, and in none of the patients taking more than 100 grams in total. At 20 mg/day, this equates to taking tamoxifen for somewhere between 1.4 years (10 g) to 13.7 years (100 g).

Dr. Piotr Szczesny who reported these results in San Francisco also mentioned that he has found that, since most breast cancer patients are women over 50, many doctors who are not well versed in this potentially devastating side effect will assume that the lack of visual acuity reported by their patients are the result of aging eyes rather than tamoxifen. These women will continue to take tamoxifen, thus increasing their chance of permanent injury.

BOTTOM LINE: Ocular toxicity from tamoxifen is a rare side effect with a potential for permanent damage to the eyes if not recognized early. If you are on tamoxifen, have your eyes examined annually. If you have any problems at all with your vision, see an ophthalmologist as soon as possible.

The article linked to below proposes that the ocular damage caused by tamoxifen is due to oxidative stress. The authors suggest that the use of antioxidants may help prevent such damage.

Exp Biol Med (Maywood). 2004 Jul;229(7):607-15.

Oxidative stress plays an important role in the pathogenesis of drug-induced retinopathy.

Toler SM.

Clinical Safety and Risk Management, Pfizer Inc., Pfizer Global Research and Development, 50 Pequot Avenue, New London, CT 06320. steven_m_toler@groton.pfizer.com

Several pharmaceutical agents have been associated with rare but serious retinopathies, some resulting in blindness. Little is known of the mechanism(s) that produce these injuries. Mechanisms proposed thus far have not been embraced by the medical and scientific communities. However, preclinical and clinical data indicate that oxidative stress may contribute substantially to iatrogenic retinal disease. Retinal oxidative stress may be precipitated by the interaction of putative retinal toxins with the ocular redox system. The retina, replete with cytochromes P450 and myeloperoxidase, may serve to activate xenobiotics to oxidants, resulting in ocular injury. These activated agents may directly form retinal adducts or may diminish ocular reduced glutathione concentrations. Data are reviewed that suggest that indomethacin, tamoxifen, thioridazine, and chloroquine all produce retinopathies via a common mechanism-they produce ocular oxidative stress

Full article can be accessed here:

http://www.ebmonline.org/cgi/content/full/229/7/607

Cancer. 1988 Jan 1;61(1):33-5.

Reversible ocular toxicity related to tamoxifen therapy.

Ashford AR, Donev I, Tiwari RP, Garrett TJ.

Department of Medicine, Harlem Hospital Center, New York, NY 10037.

A 42-year-old woman with metastatic breast cancer developed bilateral optic disc swelling, retinal hemorrhages, and visual impairment three weeks after starting treatment with low doses of tamoxifen. Neurologic evaluation failed to provide an explanation for the ocular findings which resolved completely after cessation of tamoxifen therapy. This case suggests that tamoxifen has the potential for causing serious ophthalmologic toxicity which may be reversible if recognized early.

Long term studies in breast cancer patients using tamoxifen have shown an incidence of ocular toxicity of about 6%, with retinal opacity being the irreversible side effect. Other optic problems seem to resolve when the drug is withdrawn.


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## Tha Don (Jun 26, 2006)

this one is a bit more encouraging, as it suggests that the retinal opacity (the irreversible side) is not directly caused by tamoxifen

*Tamoxifen retinopathy: does it really exist?*

Lazzaroni F, Scorolli L, Pizzoleo CF, Savini G, De Nigris A, Giosa F, Meduri RA.

Universita degli Studi di Bologna, Dipartimento di Discipline Chirurgiche, Italy.

BACKGROUND: Tamoxifen retinopathy is known to be an adverse effect of high-dose tamoxifen treatment. Evidence of ocular toxicity at lower doses is less convincing: the aim of this study was to assess the prevalence of the above-mentioned retinopathy in a population treated with low-dose tamoxifen. METHODS: One hundred and twenty-nine women treated with low-dose tamoxifen (20 mg/day) were examined. Visual acuity measurement, slit-lamp biomicroscopy and fundus examination were performed. Patients were reexamined after 6-12 months. RESULTS: Refractile retinal opacities, similar to those previously described as tamoxifen retinopathy, were observed in four patients (prevalence 3.1%; mean duration of therapy 806 days). None of them revealed corneal opacities, papillary and/or macular edema, or visual impairment. The ophthalmoscopic aspect did not change after a mean follow-up of 215 days, although one of these patients had interrupted tamoxifen intake. Statistical analysis (Student's t-test) did not reveal any difference between patients with and those without refractile retinal opacities as far as age, treatment duration and ERG values were concerned. An early hyperfluorescence, reminescent of cuticular drusen, was demonstrated by fluorescein angiography in all four cases. CONCLUSIONS: The present study would seem to confirm that low-dose tamoxifen may induce retinal toxicity in a low proportion of patients, but *we cannot be certain that the refractile retinal opacities observed are really caused by tamoxifen*, as differentiation from age-related macular degeneration with cuticular drusen appears nearly impossible.

PMID: 9782427 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## Tha Don (Jun 27, 2006)

well, i've also now read that letrozole can cause vision problems too, so i think i'm just going to come off everything and go cold turkey, given it may take me longer to recover, i don't really have any other option, this was meant to be my last cycle, and i'm not just saying that, i've decided to give up bodybuilding totally, i actually want to lose muscle and slim down, shame i'm getting forced off yet another cycle due to the side effects, this obviously just ain't for me, was meant to do cardio today but sod it, i ain't lifting another weight till my vision is back


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## musclepump (Jun 27, 2006)

Why give up bodybuilding? 

I hate to say it bro, but I don't know that your vision will come back. Nolva fucked up my vision two years ago and it is as bad, or a little worse, now after 24 months.


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## Tha Don (Jun 27, 2006)

i don't really enjoy it anymore, and it has got to the state where i am running multiple prescription drugs all for a more muscular body? for what? i can't even say i do it for esteem or confidence because i actually feel embarrassed about my size now, i'm through with it, i plan on still lifting and keeping fit, but forcing my body to keep on getting bigger and leaner until something gives is only gonna send me to an early grave, i've been wanting to quit for a while, but i've put so much time and effort into it, i wanted to leave with something, but i realise there is no way to win with these drugs, i've accepted i will probably end up smaller and weaker than when i started AAS, my vision is seriously fucked i can't live with vision like this! its just one thing after the fucking other!


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## redflash (Jun 27, 2006)

*Tha Don's story?*



			
				Tha Don said:
			
		

> i actually feel embarrassed about my size now



For the benefit of others, Tha Don, could you spare a few minutes to tell us your bodybuilding story?  I know you've had various problems on cycle, but it would be really good to know:

- How long have you been training?
- How many cycles have you done?
- What were your stats - weight/height, BF%, key measurements - when you started and what are they now?

Good luck with whatever you decide to use your extra free time for.

Flash


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## musclepump (Jun 27, 2006)

I doubt you'll stay weaker than before you started for long. You're still young. Lots of growth potential.


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## Tha Don (Jun 27, 2006)

redflash said:
			
		

> For the benefit of others, Tha Don, could you spare a few minutes to tell us your bodybuilding story?  I know you've had various problems on cycle, but it would be really good to know:
> 
> - How long have you been training?
> - How many cycles have you done?
> ...


- since 15, so 7 years

- technically this was my 4th, first was 1ad/4ad - no problems, second was s1+/dbol - gyno, 3rd was test/eq/dbol - blood pressure, 4th was test/primo - vision loss

- i really can't recall all that when i started, i can remember weighing about 9st, and being very skinny, i mean clothes didn't fit me, i was a little chubby too, so skinny-fat i guess, an ectomorph that had the ability to store fat, i looked a mess, t-shirts fitted over my upper body like a coat-hanger, most of my weight way held down around my midsection and arse, spoon shape i think its called, unsprisingly i was pretty uncomfortable with my physique, one of the reasons i started lifting (that and for sports), when i was 20 i was about 14st at my heaviest, so i'd put on 5st in 5 years naturally, and made a huge transformation, but i wanted to take it futher, i'm currently over 16st and lean, i know i won't stay this build for long though, i always return to the sort of condition before i started juice after each cycle, it seems innevitable for me, i knew this before this cycle, i honestly don't know why i cycled again other then being bored and wanting to look great for the summer but that is not worth going blind for! i've achieved all i wanted to achieve, and more, i just pray my vision and health recovers and through a clean lifestyle and good diet and exercise i can avoid any major health repercussions down the line, its crazy how my first cycle i was nervous as hell about taking one 1ad cap, and now i'm popping pills and caps like smarties morning and night, it ain't a good thing


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## Tha Don (Jun 27, 2006)

musclepump said:
			
		

> I doubt you'll stay weaker than before you started for long. You're still young. Lots of growth potential.


thanks for that

out of interest what dose/duration did you run the nolva for? and what sort of changes did you notice in your vision exactly? my eyes just seem to be more blurred and lazy, things are just more out of focus, i've heard some guys say that after a few months vision has returned to normal, others like you have said it never has, i guess i'll just have to hope and pray


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## pengers84 (Jun 27, 2006)

Do you think there is anything you could of done differently to avoid the problems you had?


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## Tha Don (Jun 27, 2006)

pengers84 said:
			
		

> Do you think there is anything you could of done differently to avoid the problems you had?


erm, yes and no, i mean, on my first cycle i could have ran AIs for the gyno, but i didn't know back then i was gyno prone, by the time i hit the nolva it was too late, 2nd cycle i could have ran BP meds, but again i didn't know it would be so bad... i tried to take all the necessary precautions each cycle, some people will run AAS and have hardly any problems, others will do a few small cycles and be riddled with problems, unfortunately i seem to be on of the latter people, having said that i never got any acne, haven't lost much hair, always came back with good liver readings, i think most people a prone to something, but it always depends on the individual, i don't want to know what problems would be install for me if i were to run a 5th cycle, so that is it for me


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## musclepump (Jun 27, 2006)

Tha Don said:
			
		

> thanks for that
> 
> out of interest what dose/duration did you run the nolva for? and what sort of changes did you notice in your vision exactly? my eyes just seem to be more blurred and lazy, things are just more out of focus, i've heard some guys say that after a few months vision has returned to normal, others like you have said it never has, i guess i'll just have to hope and pray



I was running 40/40/20 for both times I used it. I thought my vision was just naturally bad as most people in my family have glasses, and I thought it was just a coincidence that I got it while using Nolva. Then after my second cycle which was 1-AD/4-Derm, I could tell my sight was worse every few days. I quit the Nolva and it stopped getting worse. I lost my ability to see very far away; had to get glasses.

Definitely sucks.


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## Trouble (Jun 27, 2006)

TD, we already covered this issue, in a round about way.

These compounds are also acting on nuclear receptors that code for stress response (glucocorticoid receptor) in brain.  In turn, that is switching off a series of light reponse sensing elements in your retina, and its also causing a problem with delta crystalline lens protein oxidation in your eye, as well changing the hydration of the lens, and that makes it harder to focus, cause those little muscles that change the tension on the lens that lets you focus, are now outta kilter.

I want to go look for OTC NAC or ALCAR or carnosine eye drops.

You can start here and here.

Anytime you folks are juicing and notice this problem, or problems with floaters, you should start to use these eyedrops pronto.

You got excess oxidation going on in the surface of the eye, and it should be treated ASAP.

TD, you should see gradual improvement over the upcoming weeks.

For goodness sakes, you boyz or mods come lookin for me over in health or PM when we get these sides, else I don't always catch these help-me posts.

That's what I'm here for, to answer questions like this one.


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## musclepump (Jun 27, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> TD, we already covered this issue, in a round about way.
> 
> These compounds are also acting on nuclear receptors that code for stress response (glucocorticoid receptor) in brain.  In turn, that is switching off a series of light reponse sensing elements in your retina, and its also causing a problem with delta crystalline lens protein oxidation in your eye, as well changing the hydration of the lens, and that makes it harder to focus, cause those little muscles that change the tension on the lens that lets you focus, are now outta kilter.
> 
> ...



Could those drops help after the vision problems have persisted for a year or two?


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## BigPapaPump68 (Jun 27, 2006)

Tha Don said:
			
		

> erm, yes and no, i mean, on my first cycle i could have ran AIs for the gyno, but i didn't know back then i was gyno prone, by the time i hit the nolva it was too late, 2nd cycle i could have ran BP meds, but again i didn't know it would be so bad... i tried to take all the necessary precautions each cycle, some people will run AAS and have hardly any problems, others will do a few small cycles and be riddled with problems, unfortunately i seem to be on of the latter people, having said that i never got any acne, haven't lost much hair, always came back with good liver readings, i think most people a prone to something, but it always depends on the individual, i don't want to know what problems would be install for me if i were to run a 5th cycle, so that is it for me


Good luck with your future. I hope that your vision improves, sometimes I ask myself if its really worth it. By the end of my cycle I tell myself that it is but when I look back at some of the problems that Ive faced, in real terms I think not. As of now though, it wont stop me.


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## Trouble (Jun 27, 2006)

musclepump said:
			
		

> Could those drops help after the vision problems have persisted for a year or two?



Suppose so, if you follow those hyperlinks, you'll find that one of them discusses cataract treatment with these drops (carnosine I believe).  They have stopped the progression of cataract formation and in many cases reversed it.

As this type tissue damage does not occur overnight, but over the course of many years, it would seem that, yeah, it should do the trick.

Hope this info helps.


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## Tha Don (Jun 28, 2006)

Trouble said:
			
		

> TD, we already covered this issue, in a round about way.
> 
> These compounds are also acting on nuclear receptors that code for stress response (glucocorticoid receptor) in brain.  In turn, that is switching off a series of light reponse sensing elements in your retina, and its also causing a problem with delta crystalline lens protein oxidation in your eye, as well changing the hydration of the lens, and that makes it harder to focus, cause those little muscles that change the tension on the lens that lets you focus, are now outta kilter.
> 
> ...


thanks a lot trouble!

definately the light response and focus things i'm suffering from, its like i've put someones *elses* glasses on, and everything is starting to blur, i already have a stigmasism (spelling?) which means my eyes struggle to focus already, so bit worried they might have made that worse

i will definately try those eye drops, i will go the the chemist as soon as i've finished writing this message and try and get something

so i'm after 

Carnosine and N-Acetylcarnosine Eye Drops - to stop cataracts

and Glycerin 1.0% and Hydroxypropylmethylcellulose 0.3% Eye Drops - which will help soothe and heal the eye

worth a go!

trouble i'm gonna send you a quick PM, hope you don't mind

thanks for the replies all

TD


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## ag-guys (Jun 28, 2006)

Clomid can cause blurred vision.

AG-Guys
www.AG-Guys.com


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## Tha Don (Jun 28, 2006)

ag-guys said:
			
		

> Clomid can cause blurred vision.
> 
> AG-Guys
> www.AG-Guys.com


yeah but i wasn't running clomid

it seems like just about every drug has the ability to effect eyesight, i can't even be 100% that it was from the tamoxifen, my only concern now is recovery as i have no PCT, i'm just going to have to stick with trib, nettle root, vitex and fenugreek unless anyone has any better ideas, i'm tempted to run a low dose of tamox just for a week or 2, just to help get T pointing back in the right direction but unless i can be sure that the tamox is not the stuff effecting my vision i just can't risk it, given i'm not going to go blind over night, but its a bit of a dilemma, glasses or tits and shrunken balls?


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## Trouble (Jun 28, 2006)

Xenobiotics are detoxified by removing them from hepatic circulation using one of three pathways:

glutathione conjugation

glucuronidation

sulfonation via NAC

Two of three pathways consume prescious stores of the primary stress defense antioxidants of the body (NAC and glutathione).

Ergo, the more drugs you use that are cleared by these pathways, the more drain you have on your antioxidant protection in delicate tissues, like the lens and cornea of the eye.

Does this make sense?  Its the connection between drug metabolism and stress accomodation (by antioxidant protection in the face of elevated oxidation that occurs with all stress response).

See, we are not geared to deal with excess stress, environmental and dietary toxins AND drug detox all the same time.  Sucks out antioxidants and screws up one helluva lot of brain and liver functions, all interdependent on these antioxidants for function.

Your PM was anything but short or quick.  I have it on my to do list for this afternoon.


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## musclepump (Jun 28, 2006)

Tha Don said:
			
		

> yeah but i wasn't running clomid
> 
> it seems like just about every drug has the ability to effect eyesight, i can't even be 100% that it was from the tamoxifen, my only concern now is recovery as i have no PCT, i'm just going to have to stick with trib, nettle root, vitex and fenugreek unless anyone has any better ideas, i'm tempted to run a low dose of tamox just for a week or 2, just to help get T pointing back in the right direction but unless i can be sure that the tamox is not the stuff effecting my vision i just can't risk it, given i'm not going to go blind over night, but its a bit of a dilemma, glasses or tits and shrunken balls?


Have you tried Arimidex? In low doses it may effective as your last option; and certainly better than nothing.


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## H2O-Rider (Jun 28, 2006)

Tha Don said:
			
		

> yeah but i wasn't running clomid
> 
> it seems like just about every drug has the ability to effect eyesight, i can't even be 100% that it was from the tamoxifen, my only concern now is recovery as i have no PCT, i'm just going to have to stick with trib, nettle root, vitex and fenugreek unless anyone has any better ideas, i'm tempted to run a low dose of tamox just for a week or 2, just to help get T pointing back in the right direction but unless i can be sure that the tamox is not the stuff effecting my vision i just can't risk it, given i'm not going to go blind over night, but its a bit of a dilemma, glasses or tits and shrunken balls?



Dude, get yourself to an opthamologist ASAP and tell him exactly what you have been on since your vision problem started. You have a serious problem that needs to be treated by a medical profesional. Forget about your gains if you lose your vision you won't be able to admire yourself in the mirror anyway. Use common sense and stay off steriods. Your only 22 and have already done 4 cycle that you have descirbed as having significant side effects. Dont press your luck anymore than you already have, you've got a lot of life a head of you and you need to preserve your health.
Best of luck!!


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## musclepump (Jun 29, 2006)

H2O-Rider said:
			
		

> Dude, get yourself to an opthamologist ASAP and tell him exactly what you have been on since your vision problem started. You have a serious problem that needs to be treated by a medical profesional. Forget about your gains if you lose your vision you won't be able to admire yourself in the mirror anyway. Use common sense and stay off steriods. Your only 22 and have already done 4 cycle that you have descirbed as having significant side effects. Dont press your luck anymore than you already have, you've got a lot of life a head of you and you need to preserve your health.
> Best of luck!!



You may have noticed he already said he was done with the sauce


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## redflash (Jun 29, 2006)

Tha Don said:
			
		

> i'm currently over 16st and lean



Hell, Tha Don, that's a huge amount to gain from your starting point.  I'm still having trouble with the starting point i.e. trying to work out whether you were a skinny ectomorph, which would make these gains incredible, or a mesomorph, which still leaves you with hugely impressive gains.  I know I will never get to 16 stone - well, not the sort of 16 stone I'd want to, anyway... come to think of it, I can't imagine I'd ever get to 16 stone of any sort, even if I ate all the pies in England!

What is your BF% now?  Or your chest and waist measurement, whichever is easiest?  Or pics? If my calculations are correct, 16 stone is what the Americans would recognise more readily as 224lb, which is huge if lean ... and awesome at 22 years of age.

I hope you keep most of your hard-earned gains through natural training.  

Good luck,

Flash (just down the road in Leicestershire)


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## pengers84 (Jul 3, 2006)

Tha Don, How is you condition? Any improvements?  Good luck


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## kicka19 (Jul 3, 2006)

Tha Don said:
			
		

> i swear my vision is getting worse, i'm having problems focusing when i'm reading, and just in general it seems to be getting blurry, my guess is its tamoxifen as i've been running 20mg ED throughout my current cycle, i was meant to finish this week and stay on it for 3 weeks pct, but i've obviously been forced to drop it
> 
> could either test, var or letro be causing me eye problems? or is it almoast certainly the nolva, eyes look fine, and feel fine, vision just seem to be getting worse, as i recall tamoxifen can effect the eyes in 3 ways, 2 of these are temporary conditions and will return to normal once treatment has ceased, but one of these is a permenant change, i'm kind of worried, this is probably the one thing i feared the most (if anyone has seen my posts regarding nolva they'd know i will try to avoid the stuff at all costs) and its happened!
> 
> anything i can do?



young d, ull be fine mad, u always seem to get real stress out on cycle, just let it pass and maybe just go back to training naturaly, its all good man, ull be fine


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## Trouble (Jul 5, 2006)

No, it is not OK to ignore this deteriorating vision.  He is not cycling at present, Kick, in case you hadn't bothered to read the rest of the thread. 

Its not going to go away on its own.  Tha Don brought it to our attention for a reason. It can be rapid and it can scare the shit out you.

For any of you that experience these same symptoms, read and bookmark the following websites.

Read this article

Also this one.

Buy one of these:

http://www.smart-drugs.com/Smart/carnosine-eyedrops.htm

http://www.integratedhealth.com/hpds...leyedrops.html

Go thing I am in mellow mood.  I detest breezy ignorance.


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## pengers84 (Jul 5, 2006)

Trouble, is there any measures you can take to avoid these vision problems in the first place?


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