# What is Ketosis?



## JimSnow (Nov 14, 2006)

Looked up the definition...

... can an expert break it down to layman's terms for dummys like me? Is measuring this valuable to the athelete?


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## P-funk (Nov 14, 2006)

an accumulation of ketone bodies (which are short chain fatty acids)


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## obz (Nov 14, 2006)

Atkins (who's diet I tried when big and STRONGLY reccomend AGAINST) describes it as the point in which your body has run out of carbs and begins to use stored fat and protein for fuel. This has nothing to do with exercise level... just day to day life, without carbs, you will go into ketosis and your body will burn stored fat and muscle. The Atkins diet made me feel like shit even though I did loose a bit of weight. Once I stopped I gained back more though.

Sounds like you've read the more scientific explanation, and I may even be off, but it's what I remember from the few months I tried that garbage.


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## min0 lee (Nov 14, 2006)

obz said:


> Atkins (who's diet I tried when big and STRONGLY recommend AGAINST) describes it as the point in which your body has run out of carbs and begins to use stored fat and protein for fuel. This has nothing to do with exercise level... just day to day life, without carbs, you will go into ketosis and your body will burn stored fat and muscle. *The Atkins diet made me feel like shit even though I did loose a bit of weight. Once I stopped I gained back more though.*
> 
> Sounds like you've read the more scientific explanation, and I may even be off, but it's what I remember from the few months I tried that garbage.


 

I hate to hi-jack this thread but I hear people say this all the time and I had a co-worker who swore this the was the cure all.

She ballooned twice her original weight once she fell off the band wagon.


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## obz (Nov 14, 2006)

min0 lee said:


> I hate to hi-jack this thread but I hear people say this all the time and I had a co-worker who swore this the was the cure all.
> 
> She ballooned twice her original weight once she fell off the band wagon.



No joke man. While you can get some rather instant success with the atkins or atkins style diet... it is void of nutritional value. I won't even BEGIN with what it did to my digestive system. 

It's crock science that can sell because of the instant results... fact is you can't live off butter drenched bacon strips dipped in sour cream, or 4 hamburger patties with 8 slices of cheese sugar free katsup and mustard.... oh yes, I ate that all the time while 'doing atkins'.

Obviously high protein is key to people lifting and alot of commonly consumed carbs are very bad for you, so it's not so far out from the realities of nutritional health. But to sell people on the idea that you can get healthy while eating pure lard and fat is... well it's marketing genius and health detrimental. 

Reminds me of when doctors used to endorse cigarettes in the 1940's and such.


Edit: I will say this though about Atkins, as I continue the thread jacking (sorry jim). I did learn quite a bit about high protein cooking while doing that, that has come back to be handy now that I am trying to build muscle mass. Obviously tempered with much better nutrition in mind, still though, I did get that out of it .


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## min0 lee (Nov 14, 2006)

obz said:


> No joke man. While you can get some rather instant success with the Atkins or Atkins style diet... it is void of nutritional value. I won't even BEGIN with what it did to my digestive system.
> 
> It's crock science that can sell because of the instant results... fact is you can't live off butter drenched bacon strips dipped in sour cream, or 4 hamburger patties with 8 slices of cheese sugar free katsup and mustard.... oh yes, I ate that all the time while 'doing Atkins'.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should start a thread, this seems so interesting.


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## JimSnow (Nov 14, 2006)

The only advice I can offer to people choosing "the diet of the day" is... work out 3 days a week for two months (whatever the workout is). Of course, they'll never do that.

I have a very physical job.

What amuses me is that I've visited the unflushed urinals of new employees and seen the dark orange, foul smelling urine of guys who have never exercised. I think, "this is your first day of getting into shape."

Most of them don't last more than a week. Sad.


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## min0 lee (Nov 14, 2006)

> JimSnow said:
> 
> 
> > The only advice I can offer to people choosing "the diet of the day" is... work out 3 days a week for two months (whatever the workout is). Of course, they'll never do that.
> ...


You find that amusing?


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## JimSnow (Nov 14, 2006)

min0 lee said:


> You find that amusing?



Not too pround to admit that after my divorce last year after 22, I had to take a job as a grocery department manager. I unload, breakdown trucks for a high-end, high volume grocery chain. Then I stock 600-800 cases of that 5 days a week.

Hard to eat near enough calories and get rest.


What amuses me is how "soft" kids are today. As soon as it becomes painful, they run to momma's teats.

No wonder everyone thinks I'm a hardass. LOL


I'm a teddybear. A _teat_ does sound good, however.


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## katt (Nov 14, 2006)

JimSnow said:


> Not too pround to admit that after my divorce last year after 22, I had to take a job as a grocery department manager. I unload, breakdown trucks for a high-end, high volume grocery chain. Then I stock 600-800 cases of that 5 days a week.
> 
> Hard to eat near enough calories and get rest.
> 
> ...



My husband has your job as well - I have to say, you guys run your asses off

And, yes, I totally agree with comment about the kids


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## AKIRA (Nov 14, 2006)

obz said:


> Reminds me of when doctors used to endorse cigarettes in the 1940's and such.



What  the  fuck, are you serious?


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## min0 lee (Nov 14, 2006)

JimSnow said:


> Not too pround to admit that after my divorce last year after 22, I had to take a job as a grocery department manager.* I unload, breakdown trucks for a high-end, high volume grocery chain. Then I stock 600-800 cases of that 5 days a week.*
> 
> Hard to eat near enough calories and get rest.
> 
> ...


Is that your cardio workout?


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## min0 lee (Nov 14, 2006)

AKIRA said:


> What  the  fuck, are you serious?


Yes, if memory serves me right I believe John Wayne used to endorse it.....he lost a lung to cancer.


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## obz (Nov 14, 2006)

AKIRA said:


> What  the  fuck, are you serious?



Yup. Read up on the history of cigarette marketing.

Even good old Ronald regan endorsed them back in the day.

http://www.decodog.com/inven/history/hs29757.jpg


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## Valias (Nov 14, 2006)

obz said:


> ... it is void of nutritional value. I won't even BEGIN with what it did to my digestive system...
> 
> ...fact is you can't live off butter drenched bacon strips dipped in sour cream, or 4 hamburger patties with 8 slices of cheese sugar free katsup and mustard.... oh yes, I ate that all the time while 'doing atkins'...



What the HELL were you thinking? the principles of the atkins diet are perfectly sound, how about trying a low carb diet and instead of ingesting bacon strips and butter you ingest lean cuts of meat and mono fats? Whilst consuming alot of fibrous greens. 

Of course eating that junk is ridiculous - but you can get some healthy nutrious meals which are decently low carb. One just needs to edit it abit for their own needs. Low carb diets are great for losing fat - but as this is a bodybuilding forum you'll suffer with strength / energy in the gym. but for the average person (semi-sedintary) the low carb diet is fine.





min0 lee said:


> ...She ballooned twice her original weight once she fell off the band wagon.



The bounce back you talk about is probably because the average person also enjoy consuming ice cream and candy bars regularly which will cause a bounce back to ANY person - i.e. they come off the low carb diet looking trim and load themselves up with carbs and presto they're fat again. 

Will power > diet.


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## min0 lee (Nov 14, 2006)

I have yet to meet a person on the Atkins diet who is involved in any form of exercise, to them Atkins is all they need.

I don't think so.


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## obz (Nov 14, 2006)

Valias said:


> What the HELL were you thinking?



I wasn't thinking anything other than 'anything to loose weight'. And I bought the hype, and learned my lesson.



> the principles of the atkins diet are perfectly sound,



I disagree.



> but for the average person (semi-sedintary) the low carb diet is fine.



As a diet it does yeild results, I agree. But I don't agree that it's 'fine' or healthy. I also don't agree that it works as a permanent solution, even for the sedentary types.



> Will power > diet.



I totally agree.


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## PWGriffin (Nov 14, 2006)

I've read by staying in ketosis all the time you can lose a substantial amount of muscle...

When people do these kinds of diets they lose weight fast yea...water, fat and muscle.  It all melts off.  Then when they start to gain the weight back they will gain nothing but fat back.  You don't put on muscle without exercising.  So eventually they will be in worse shape than when they started.  Fad diets aren't healthy......PERIOD.


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## Valias (Nov 14, 2006)

obz said:


> I wasn't thinking anything other than 'anything to loose weight'. And I bought the hype, and learned my lesson???



Well at least we know your first mistake whilst on the Atkins diet ??? never take anything you read really 100% serious unless it???s something from a medical journal, you should always keep an open mind.

Towards the later days Atkin???s recommended many vitamins and other supplements to fill in the caps from missing out some types of vegetables (carb filled ones) ??? mind you it of course is sub par when compared to real vegetables.

Mix vitamins with some good sources of fats like flax and fish, with lean cuts of beef and various green low carb vegetables and you???re having a pretty healthy diet ??? more than what can be said for most people who are dieting in any way shape or form.



obz said:


> ??? I disagree???



Yeah who doesn???t disagree with some principles of the atkins? Stupid people wanting an easy way out yes, but the same rules apply with any diet ??? if you maintain a caloric deficit you???re going to lose weight, the extra fat in place of carbs promotes a few extra???s like no risk of hormones being effected (due to a very low fat diet). 

 Carbs ??? Insulin ??? Anabolic ??? Fat storage / inhibition of fat burning. 

The ingestion of fats aids in fat burning and does not inhibit it like insulin would.



min0 lee said:


> I have yet to meet a person on the Atkins diet who is involved in any form of exercise, to them Atkins is all they need.
> 
> I don't think so.



This is exactly the point I???m making ??? follow it blindly and it???s unhealthy, tweak it slightly and it???s excellent. Through in some exercise for an extra stimulation of your metabolism and additional fat burning and you???re going strong. Unlike a carb meal which would cause an insulin spike and thus hinder your fat burning abilities whilst it is circulating ??? no carb meals mean you can exercise at any time and be shedding fat.


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## Valias (Nov 14, 2006)

And yeah PW - i made the point of saying something about that low carb diets aren't for bodybuilders. without the energy you're not only going to be struggling to lift big weights but you'll be causing current muscle to break down.

then again you could possibly tweak this? say ingest a high carb PWO drink and high carb PWO or something? Yes i'm against low carb diets for BBing.


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## obz (Nov 14, 2006)

Valias, I understand that it can be altered for better dietary nutrition. i did post that that was one bennefit of having been through that BS diet...  cullinary excellence of high protein meals. 

All 'fad diets' are horse crap as we agree and atkins is a fad diet.
Not htat you can't take anything from some principals of the diets structure, look at it with a nutritionally uninformed eye as I did back when I tried it. You see 'meat cheese=good' and 'bread potatos = bad'. You stop reading after that because that IS the foundation of the diet, and how hard is it to talk yourself into meat and cheese?

As far as your explanation of fat loss, you are preaching to the choir.

http://www.visumobscura.com/images/webImages/beforeAfter03.jpg

I'm not looking to burn fat, but to build muscle like everyone here. I just thought I would chime in with my experience on the subject of ketosis. 



> I've read by staying in ketosis all the time you can lose a substantial amount of muscle...
> 
> When people do these kinds of diets they lose weight fast yea...water, fat and muscle. It all melts off. Then when they start to gain the weight back they will gain nothing but fat back. You don't put on muscle without exercising. So eventually they will be in worse shape than when they started. Fad diets aren't healthy......PERIOD.



Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## PWGriffin (Nov 14, 2006)

Valias said:


> And yeah PW - i made the point of saying something about that low carb diets aren't for bodybuilders. without the energy you're not only going to be struggling to lift big weights but you'll be causing current muscle to break down.
> 
> then again you could possibly tweak this? say ingest a high carb PWO drink and high carb PWO or something? Yes i'm against low carb diets for BBing.



Losing muscle isn't on anyone's to do list...bodybuilder or not....Lean tissues regulate other tissues and having LBM is healthy....not having LBM is NOT healthy.


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## CowPimp (Nov 14, 2006)

I've still yet to see one solid reason why the Atkins diet is a good idea.  There is nothing you can't achieve with a healthy and balanced diet except diarrhea.  

I can understand moderating carbohydrate intake (Which I still don't think is necessary for as many people as some suggest), but dropping it to virtually nothing doesn't make sense to me.  Your brain needs glucose.  In the absence of glucose your body will use fatty acid metabolites (Ketone bodies) to feed the brain.  Well, unfortunately these ketone bodies turn your blood pH to shit, which the body doesn't like.  It fights desperately to maintain a very narrow range (I believe it's 7.35-45) for optimal functioning of the cardiovascular system and various metabolic processes.

So let's see... starve the brain, send yourself into a state of acidosis, cut out lots of nutritious food items from your diet, leave yourself feeling like shit, load up on excess animal products, increase the risk of degrading the proteins of skeletal muscle, and achieve nothing you couldn't with a more balanced diet.  Sounds like a good idea... if you're George Bush.


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## NordicNacho (Jun 18, 2007)

Im starting the Anabolic Diet Today.  Its like atkins but you eat carbs on the weekend after going 12 days with only 30 grams of carbs.  Im going to be HUGE

sweet


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## Minotaur (Jun 19, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> She ballooned twice her original weight once she fell off the band wagon.



That can happen with any diet.  You can't go back to eating the way you did before and expect to keep the excess weight off.  Atkins or any keto diet is not a short term thing, unless you know exactly what you're doing and why (e.g. pre-contest cutting).  If you're not willing to make the lifetime change in eating habits, it ain't a-gonna work.


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## Minotaur (Jun 19, 2007)

obz said:


> It's crock science that can sell because of the instant results... fact is you can't live off butter drenched bacon strips dipped in sour cream, or 4 hamburger patties with 8 slices of cheese sugar free katsup and mustard.... oh yes, I ate that all the time while 'doing atkins'.



That wasn't Atkins or anything close to a properly done ketogenic diet.  Properly done Atkins or keto diet is lots of green vegs (which I admit is a shortcoming for me), moderate protein and high fat (about 65% of calories).


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## Minotaur (Jun 19, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> I have yet to meet a person on the Atkins diet who is involved in any form of exercise, to them Atkins is all they need.
> 
> I don't think so.



I follow a ketogenic diet, ala Atkins, because I have excess fat to lose, have high triglycerides and am insulin resistant (i.e. diabetic).  

I weight train 3-4x/week and lift hard and heavy, and ride a mountain bike (on the road, 10-15 miles/ride) a couple of times/week.  

Dr. Atkins specifically said that you _*need *_to exercise.  People that eat whatever they want and don't do any exercise are not doing Atkins.  They should stop saying they are.


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## Minotaur (Jun 19, 2007)

PWGriffin said:


> I've read by staying in ketosis all the time you can lose a substantial amount of muscle...



Not if you keep protein at the right level.



> Fad diets aren't healthy......PERIOD.



No, they aren't healthy.  But Atkins is not a fad.  It's been in use for at least 200,000 years.  Literally... it is also known as paleo-diet, and is the way almost all hunter-gatherer societies (From Neanderthals to North American Plains Indians).  It's what man evolved on and ate before the advent of agriculture.


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## MCx2 (Jun 19, 2007)

Minotaur said:


> Not if you keep protein at the right level.
> 
> 
> 
> No, they aren't healthy.  But Atkins is not a fad.  It's been in use for at least 200,000 years.  Literally... it is also known as paleo-diet, and is the way almost all hunter-gatherer societies (From Neanderthals to North American Plains Indians).  It's what man evolved on and ate before the advent of agriculture.



Interesting.


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## tucker01 (Jun 19, 2007)

Minotaur said:


> Not if you keep protein at the right level.
> 
> 
> 
> No, they aren't healthy.  But Atkins is not a fad.  It's been in use for at least 200,000 years.  Literally... it is also known as paleo-diet, and is the way almost all hunter-gatherer societies (From Neanderthals to North American Plains Indians).  It's what man evolved on and ate before the advent of agriculture.



I wouldn't say all hunter-gather societies.  The diet would be dependant on environment.  For instance tribes in a tropical region would be more likely to eat fruits and vegetation.  Would they not?


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## NordicNacho (Jun 19, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> I wouldn't say all hunter-gather societies.  The diet would be dependant on environment.  For instance tribes in a tropical region would be more likely to eat fruits and vegetation.  Would they not?




You can eat those on the diet just not grains, sugar, soda, stuff like that.


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## tucker01 (Jun 19, 2007)

NordicNacho said:


> You can eat those on the diet just not grains, sugar, soda, stuff like that.



I am sure some areas grains were plentiful as well.


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## NordicNacho (Jun 19, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> I am sure some areas grains were plentiful as well.




Not really before the the development of agriculture.  Today shitty carbs make up most of the energy American use.  Same thing with dairy its good for gaining weight but not for maintaining.


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## Minotaur (Jun 19, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> I wouldn't say all hunter-gather societies.  The diet would be dependant on environment.  For instance tribes in a tropical region would be more likely to eat fruits and vegetation.  Would they not?



Right...   that's why I said *almost* all.  Keep in mind that most of humanity's (Homo sapiens that is) evolution took place in the northern hemisphere.  And also, any fruits early humans would have encountered would have been nothing like what we have today... far less sugar.  It would have been wild berries, mainly.  And of course any edible green plants and roots and tubers... again, far less sugary than what we have today.


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## tucker01 (Jun 19, 2007)

NordicNacho said:


> Not really before the the development of agriculture. Today shitty carbs make up most of the energy American use. Same thing with dairy its good for gaining weight but not for maintaining.



Fair enough.  However I am sure some wild rice and root based plants existed as a part of some diets.



Minotaur said:


> Right...   that's why I said *almost* all.  Keep in mind that most of humanity's (Homo sapiens that is) evolution took place in the northern hemisphere.  And also, any fruits early humans would have encountered would have been nothing like what we have today... far less sugar.  It would have been wild berries, mainly.  And of course any edible green plants and roots and tubers... again, far less sugary than what we have today.



Good point.  We are spoiled with our choices of foods nowadays.


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## Minotaur (Jun 19, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> Fair enough.  However I am sure some wild rice and root based plants existed as a part of some diets.
> 
> 
> 
> Good point.  We are spoiled with our choices of foods nowadays.



Oh yes definitely on both points.  There have always been wild grains.  I'm sure hunter-gatherers plucked the stalks and seeds of wild grains.  After all, we learned how to cultivate and eat them somehow.


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## NordicNacho (Jun 19, 2007)

Im on day 2 I must of had 2 pounds of top sirloin today.  Its on sale for 3 dollars a pound so far so good Im digging it so far.


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## Minotaur (Jun 20, 2007)

Keep your fat intake high, about 65% of calories... olive oil, heavy cream, oily fish like salmon.  Sirloin is very lean.


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## NordicNacho (Jun 20, 2007)

will do I've been putting olive oil in my workout shakes and have been pounding the fish oil, but I guess I need to get some bacon, pork, and some fatter cuts and stuff like that.


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## Minotaur (Jun 20, 2007)

Sounds like a plan.


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## NordicNacho (Jun 21, 2007)

In bought some chorizo Yesterday so that helping me bump up the fat cals big time plus it goes great with eggs.  I've lost some weight already and its only been 3 days this is a pretty cool diet.  Eat a bunch of meat and cheese and lose a bunch of fat I bought some sugar free jello which I've never had before but it tastes great and kills my sweet tooth.  Im also pounding the fish oil pills and garlic pills to keep my heart healthy.


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## Big Smoothy (Mar 2, 2010)

This thread is 2 1/2 years old, but it's worthy of a bump.  

Atkins, Anabolic, and UD2 discussed.


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