# I could care less about Israel, but...



## TheGreatSatan (Jul 8, 2006)

it's funny how they've been bombing the crap out of Palestine.  In the US that would not fly.  You'd have thousands of Libs standing up for the terrorists.  It's nice knowing they could care less about the commy libs and just keep the bombs coming.


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## GFR (Jul 8, 2006)

I agree 100%, all people should kill whoever they want.....fuck the protesters.


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## Big Smoothy (Jul 8, 2006)

TheGreatSatan said:
			
		

> it's funny how they've been bombing the crap out of Palestine.  In the US that would not fly.  You'd have thousands of Libs standing up for the terrorists.  It's nice knowing they could care less about the commy libs and just keep the bombs coming.



Can you be specific?

You didn't state one fact.

What is your opinion on the _1994 Oslo Peace Accords._


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## BigDyl (Jul 8, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> I agree 100%, all people should kill whoever they want.....fuck the protesters.




True Story, I hope all protestors die, and the land of the United States of America is turned into 100% Asphault, with all industrial buildings where workers get paid 10 cents an hour to make cheap plastic shit for rich people.


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## Witmaster (Jul 8, 2006)

TheGreatSatan said:
			
		

> it's funny how they've been bombing the crap out of Palestine. In the US that would not fly. You'd have thousands of Libs standing up for the terrorists. It's nice knowing they could care less about the commy libs and just keep the bombs coming.


Palestine has historicaly supported, fostered, and deployed terrorism for decades.


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## kbm8795 (Jul 8, 2006)

Palestine was administered by the British, who apparently, like the United States, didn't like the idea of setting up areas in their own countries to house refugees or Jewish immigrants. The original agreement was to partition Palestine, but shortly before the United Nations was ready to implement the arrangement, Israel declared independence. 

I suppose that wouldn't have happened if we had just given the Jewish people Utah or Wyoming. . .but then our rather lousy track record with immigration for Jews to the U.S. during WW II didn't encourage anyone in our "christian" nation to consider those options.


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## kbm8795 (Jul 8, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> where workers get paid 10 cents an hour to make cheap plastic shit for rich people.




Or bombs so that the rich can continue to blow up other places and claim that the white baby Jesus told them to do it. . .


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## CowPimp (Jul 8, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Palestine has historicaly supported, fostered, and deployed terrorism for decades.



So has Israel.


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## Witmaster (Jul 8, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> So has Israel.


Yea... but Fuck Palistine.


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## joesmooth20 (Jul 8, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Yea... but Fuck Palistine.



YEAH, the darker they are the more we hate them


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## maniclion (Jul 9, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Palestine has historicaly supported, fostered, and deployed terrorism for decades.


So has Ireland.


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## GFR (Jul 9, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Yea... but Fuck Palistine.


Racist


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## CowPimp (Jul 9, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Yea... but Fuck Palistine.



Can't argue with that logic.  Oh wait, there is no logic behind it...


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## TheGreatSatan (Jul 9, 2006)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> Can you be specific?



Palestine asked for a cease fire, but the bombs kept coming.


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## DOMS (Jul 9, 2006)

Everyone needs to get out of the way of this conflict so that the Israelis can obliterate the Palestinians proper.


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## BigDyl (Jul 9, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> True Story, I hope all protestors die, and the land of the United States of America is turned into 100% Asphault, with all industrial buildings where workers get paid 10 cents an hour to make cheap plastic shit for rich people.





*COMMUNIST!!!*


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## BigDyl (Jul 9, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> *COMMUNIST!!!*


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## kicka19 (Jul 9, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> So has Israel.


those are "good" terrorists, teh word terrorist is bs, one persons terrorist is another persons patriot


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## BigDyl (Jul 9, 2006)

kicka19 said:
			
		

> those are "good" terrorists, teh word terrorist is bs, one persons terrorist is another persons patriot




That sounds like something a terrorist would say.


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## lnvanry (Jul 9, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Everyone needs to get out of the way of this conflict so that the Israelis can obliterate the Palestinians proper.






Its soooo pointless to even debate issue...These two cultures have such a profound hatred of each other....the conflict is in their blood.

its kind of like a dog fight....in which Israel is a doberman and palestine is the little poodle that acts like a pit bull.


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## GFR (Jul 9, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Everyone needs to get out of the way of this conflict so that the Israelis can obliterate the Palestinians proper.


I agree 100%, let them fight it out till the end...not our problem.


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## lnvanry (Jul 9, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> I agree 100%, let them fight it out till the end...not our problem.


well it is our problem...we have billions invested in israel...not too mention jews hold a lot of clout in our gov't and business...however, they are holding a F-16 jet fighter to the palestinians kasam hand held rocket....its a no brainer.


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## GFR (Jul 9, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> *well it is our problem...we have billions invested in israel*...not too mention jews hold a lot of clout in our gov't and business...however, they are holding a F-16 jet fighter to the palestinians kasam hand held rocket....its a no brainer.


We should not have a penny invested in Israel......That could have been avoided as could have many stupid things our Gov does.


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## lnvanry (Jul 9, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> We should not have a penny invested in Israel......That could have been avoided as could have many stupid things our Gov does.



many investments were made in order to forge strong ties...which allow us to run operations of ALL types from that country of origin throughout the region.


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## GFR (Jul 9, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> many investments were made in order to forge strong ties...which allow us to run operations of ALL types from that country of origin throughout the region.


"That could have been avoided as could have many stupid things our Gov does."


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## Witmaster (Jul 9, 2006)

maniclion said:
			
		

> So has Ireland.


YEa, but they have Guinness


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## Witmaster (Jul 9, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Can't argue with that logic. Oh wait, there is no logic behind it...


Neither is strapping on a bomb belt and blowing up a bussload of kids but, hey... If that's all it take to win your support I'm sure the PLO would be grateful for any donations you wish to offer.


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## GFR (Jul 9, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Neither is strapping on a bomb belt and blowing up a bussload of kids but, hey... If that's all it take to win your support I'm sure the PLO would be grateful for any donations you wish to offer.


I agree 100%, not one Iraqi child was killed when we attacked them


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## Witmaster (Jul 9, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> I agree 100%, not one Iraqi child was killed when we attacked them


You failed to mention all the children we killed in Japan, oh... wait.... that's another thread. my bad.


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## GFR (Jul 9, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> You failed to mention all the children we killed in Japan, oh... wait.... that's another thread. my bad.


We killed 0 children in Japan....True Story


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## pumpthatiron (Jul 9, 2006)

This thread deeply saddens my heart. You tell me what you would do if someone comes into your land, takes it over, and makes your land a jail for you.  But the Palestinians are terrorists right?  Oh man, they sure terrorize a lot of people with those stones, when day and night their neighborhoods are being bombed, supply of water and electricity is being cut out, hundreds of mothers are giving birth on the road on their way to the hospitals (because of the so called checkpoints), little kids are getting shot  

Wanna know what terrorism is?

Terrorism is little innocent girls being scared to death by an army officer on their way to school...


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## lnvanry (Jul 9, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> This thread deeply saddens my heart. You tell me what you would do if someone comes into your land, takes it over, and makes your land a jail for you. But the Palestinians are terrorists right? Oh man, they sure terrorize a lot of people with those *stones*, when day and night their neighborhoods are being bombed, supply of water and electricity is being cut out, hundreds of mothers are giving birth on the road on their way to the hospitals (because of the so called checkpoints), little kids are getting shot
> 
> Wanna know what terrorism is?
> 
> Terrorism is little innocent girls being scared to death by an army officer on their way to school...




  stones...you mean kasam rockets, right...women and children die on both sides....You think the palestinian women and children are MORE innocent?


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## GFR (Jul 9, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> This thread deeply saddens my heart. You tell me what you would do if someone comes into your land, takes it over, and makes your land a jail for you.  But the Palestinians are terrorists right?  Oh man, they sure terrorize a lot of people with those stones, when day and night their neighborhoods are being bombed, supply of water and electricity is being cut out, hundreds of mothers are giving birth on the road on their way to the hospitals (because of the so called checkpoints), little kids are getting shot
> 
> Wanna know what terrorism is?
> 
> Terrorism is little innocent girls being scared to death by an army officer on their way to school...


It is the old balck and white hat propaganda... Israel has the white hats and the Palestinians have the black hats.....scary thing is 90% of Americans believe this BS


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## lnvanry (Jul 9, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> It is the old balck and white hat propaganda... Israel has the white hats and* the *Palestinians have the black hats.....scary thing is 90% of Americans believe this BS



actually its the msulims with white hats in that pic


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## GFR (Jul 9, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> actually its the msulims with white hats in that pic


Racist


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## lnvanry (Jul 9, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> I'm a Racist



we know


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## fUnc17 (Jul 9, 2006)

they have been fighting each other for the past 5000 years, your not going to resolve their problems on IronMag. let them blow each other the fuck up


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## lnvanry (Jul 9, 2006)

fUnc17 said:
			
		

> they have been fighting each other for the past 5000 years, your not going to resolve their problems on IronMag. let them blow each other the fuck up



That what I've been saying on this thread and many others on IM....wait R U telling me we can't change the world with a computer?...at IM?


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## goandykid (Jul 10, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> stones...you mean kasam rockets, right...women and children die on both sides....*You think the palestinian women and children are MORE innocent?*



That wasnt what he was saying, he was saying they shouldnt be touched on either side, and that that is corssing the line. Or at least thats how I took it, its 4 30 in the morning


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## Witmaster (Jul 10, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> This thread deeply saddens my heart. You tell me what you would do if someone comes into your land, takes it over, and makes your land a jail for you. But the Palestinians are terrorists right? Oh man, they sure terrorize a lot of people with those stones, when day and night their neighborhoods are being bombed, supply of water and electricity is being cut out, hundreds of mothers are giving birth on the road on their way to the hospitals (because of the so called checkpoints), little kids are getting shot
> 
> Wanna know what terrorism is?
> 
> Terrorism is little innocent girls being scared to death by an army officer on their way to school...


LMAO!!!!  What Hypocracy!!  You throw this picture up, share some heartbleeding statement implying the "poor little innocent palistine people are merely throwing pebbles at the tyrranical giant evil Israelis"...


And then you cry "Propaganda Foul".  

Man that is righteous!!


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## Big Smoothy (Jul 10, 2006)

The Isrealis and the Palesinians are both terrorizin each other.

And sadly, I don't think this will change. 

Link to the Balfour Declaration of 1917:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration,_1917

UN Partition of Palestine, 1948:
_this link has been edited and censored_


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## pumpthatiron (Jul 10, 2006)

Too bad the jews and Israel own the United States of America... thats just too bad...  this world is being run by the jews...


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## GFR (Jul 10, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> Too bad the jews and Israel own the United States of America... thats just too bad...  this world is being run by the jews...


I find this comment to be as offensive as it is true.


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## Witmaster (Jul 10, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> Too bad the jews and Israel own the United States of America... thats just too bad... this world is being run by the jews...


ahhh so the anti-semetic comes out of the closet 

That's awesome! 

And here I thought you just opposed Israel.


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## Witmaster (Jul 10, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> I find this comment to be as offensive as it is true.


You may be a hater but at least you're honest about it.


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## GFR (Jul 10, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> You may be a hater but at least you're honest about it.


It is not hate to see the facts


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## BigDyl (Jul 10, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> It is not hate to see the facts




True Story, I agree 175%


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## Witmaster (Jul 10, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> True Story, I agree 175%


That's just another way of saying you agree one and three quarters of the time


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## lnvanry (Jul 10, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> Too bad the jews and Israel own the United States of America... thats just too bad... this world is being run by the jews...



put down the koolaid....paranoia won't help you

sure the jews have influence, but they don't "run" the world


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## Big Smoothy (Jul 10, 2006)

I don't think the U.S. is "ruled" or "run" by Jews but the Jews have a significant influence over politicians, newspapers, magazines, and electronic media (TV).

This is ONLY in the form of _Israeli policy_.

If you criticize the _nation-state of Israel_ you better look out.


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## lnvanry (Jul 10, 2006)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> I don't think the U.S. is "ruled" or "run" by Jews but the Jews have a significant influence over politicians, newspapers, magazines, and electronic media (TV).
> 
> This is ONLY in the form of _Israeli policy_.
> 
> If you criticize the _nation-state of Israel_ you better look out.



point being?

Do you think they are undeserving of their position?

They are THE most successful ethnic group to come to America...just above the Irish.


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## Decker (Jul 10, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> put down the koolaid....paranoia won't help you
> 
> sure the jews have influence, but they don't "run" the world


The Jew is using the Black as muscle against you.  And you are left helpless.

Well, what are you going to do about it, Whitey?!!!  Just sit there?!! Of course not!


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## lnvanry (Jul 10, 2006)

Decker said:
			
		

> The Jew is using the Black as muscle against you.  And you are left helpless.
> 
> Well, what are you going to do about it, Whitey?!!!  Just sit there?!! Of course not!



 I have Jewish family....trust me, I'm not helpless or blind.


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## Big Smoothy (Jul 10, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> point being?



My points is (and was) about Israel and what's been happening since 1947.



> Do you think they are undeserving of their position?



In recent years, yes.

The "Right of Return" issue may fade away in the coming decades, but as the Palestinian population grows exponentionally, they will continue to vie for some equality in this mess.



> They are THE most successful ethnic group to come to America...just above the Irish.



Mostly a religious group and yes some are ethnically similar.  I have Jewish friends and the Jewish folks value education, are creative and do good, wherever they go.   They have also suffered horrific persecution throughout history, from Roman Times, to the Spanish Inquisition, to the Russian Pograms to the Holocaust, among more.

The issue is Israel and how the Palestinians have been, and are now treated.

The U.S. screwed the Indians.  The Indians couldn't and/or didn't fight back as hard.    

The Palestinians are a different story.  They are not giving up.  They also, have little to lose after their land was stolen - yes, stolen - by the UN Agreement of 1947. 

I don't see a solution as a whole.


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## Big Smoothy (Jul 10, 2006)




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## GFR (Jul 10, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> point being?
> 
> Do you think they are undeserving of their position?
> 
> * They are THE most successful ethnic group to come to America...just above the Irish.*


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## lnvanry (Jul 10, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

>


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## lnvanry (Jul 10, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

>



racist


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## GFR (Jul 10, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> racist


No comment


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## lnvanry (Jul 10, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> No comment


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## Witmaster (Jul 10, 2006)

Decker said:
			
		

> The Jew is using the Black as muscle against you. And you are left helpless.
> 
> Well, what are you going to do about it, Whitey?!!! Just sit there?!! Of course not!


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## lnvanry (Jul 10, 2006)

#9


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## Witmaster (Jul 10, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> #9


Remind me again... what's #9?


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## GFR (Jul 10, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Remind me again... what's #9?


My Brain just exploded


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## CowPimp (Jul 10, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Neither is strapping on a bomb belt and blowing up a bussload of kids but, hey... If that's all it take to win your support I'm sure the PLO would be grateful for any donations you wish to offer.



Why do people automatically assume I support Palestine just because I don't support Israel?  Both of them are murderous.


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## lnvanry (Jul 10, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Why do people automatically assume I support Palestine just because I don't support Israel? Both of them are murderous.



its a polarizing issue...for most its a "with us or against thing"...I'm pretty apathetic to whole issue.


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## Big Smoothy (Jul 10, 2006)

> *Originally Posted by Witmaster*
> Neither is strapping on a bomb belt and blowing up a bussload of kids but, hey... If that's all it take to win your support I'm sure the PLO would be grateful for any donations you wish to offer.



The Israelis do this, too.

Sad, but true.


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## lnvanry (Jul 10, 2006)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> The Israelis do this, too.
> 
> Sad, but true.


care to site that?

strapping bombs on people and sending them into a bus that is...


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## fUnc17 (Jul 10, 2006)

Israel should take responsiblity for the situation it has gotten itself into. On the other hand, the PLO is a piece of shit and needs to burn in hell for attacking civilians and killing innocents. There will never be peace, each side brainwashes their citizens and bombards themselves/eachother with propoganda. The innocents will always fight and die for the "cause" of the higher ups, its how the game has and will always be played.


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## lnvanry (Jul 10, 2006)

fUnc17 said:
			
		

> Israel should take responsiblity for the situation it has gotten itself into. On the other hand, the PLO is a piece of shit and needs to burn in hell for attacking civilians and killing innocents. There will never be peace, each side brainwashes their citizens and bombards themselves/eachother with propoganda. The innocents will always fight and die for the "cause" of the higher ups, its how the game has and will always be played.



checkmate


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## DOMS (Jul 10, 2006)

fUnc17 said:
			
		

> Israel should take responsiblity for the situation it has gotten itself into. On the other hand, the PLO is a piece of shit and needs to burn in hell for attacking civilians and killing innocents. *There will never be peace*, each side brainwashes their citizens and bombards themselves/eachother with propoganda. The innocents will always fight and die for the "cause" of the higher ups, its how the game has and will always be played.



Not true.  Simply let the Israelis kill the Palestinians.  Peace accomplished.


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## BigDyl (Jul 10, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> its a polarizing issue...for most its a "with us or against thing"...I'm pretty apathetic to whole issue.




True Story, which makes you such a caring human being.   I mean...


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## Witmaster (Jul 10, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Why do people automatically assume I support Palestine just because I don't support Israel? Both of them are murderous.


Good point.  I was wrong to assume but (as Ivanry pointed out) this is a polarizing issue.

It seems we find ourselves "justifying" one sides actions because the "other guys" did all the mean and horrible things.

Frankly, I'd but my trust with Israel LONG before I'd trust the PLO to even so much as clean my latrines.  Those fuckers have been murdering every non-islamic culture they can get a shot at for as long as I can remember.  Even if Israel were to stop all aggression there is no evidence to support any claim that Palistine would follow suit.


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## lnvanry (Jul 10, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> True Story, which makes you such a caring human being.   I mean...



...i siad for most...not all


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## CowPimp (Jul 10, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Good point.  I was wrong to assume but (as Ivanry pointed out) this is a polarizing issue.
> 
> It seems we find ourselves "justifying" one sides actions because the "other guys" did all the mean and horrible things.
> 
> Frankly, I'd but my trust with Israel LONG before I'd trust the PLO to even so much as clean my latrines.  Those fuckers have been murdering every non-islamic culture they can get a shot at for as long as I can remember.  Even if Israel were to stop all aggression there is no evidence to support any claim that Palistine would follow suit.



That is highly inaccurate.  Once Palestine was butt-fucked out of their land 60 years ago the Israelis proceeded with mass killings and exile of the Palestinians from the portions handed removed from Palestinian control.  They didn't like it too much so they started killing people.  Whether this was wrong or not, don't try to absolve Israel of their wrongdoings.  

Furthermore, the media in the USA portrays a vastly different picture than that of many other European countries like Greece, Australia, and Italy.  The media here largely ignores reports of Israeli attacks on Palestinian civilians, or twists the stories appropriately to make them seem less malicious than they really are.

Again, both are committing acts of terror, but American media organizations really polish up the Israeli side of things big time.


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## lnvanry (Jul 10, 2006)

Israel tried to take steps such as the gaza withdrawl....and then hamas got elected, the jewish step at giving some of its land back the supposed "rightful" onwers was ruined...ruined with a welcome of random kasam rockets and an abduction of a soldier...who looks like a little boy and a dork.

rightful---who owned the land before the arabs and saladin conquered it??? It was the jews....they had then arabs had it...then the christians had it...then the arabs had it....NOW the jews have it. Not to mention they were attacked in the six days war by Egypt, Palestinians, and Syria...they got their ass handed to in 1 week   They lost their land...in which they could have kept if they didn't provocate a war.

war spoils....do you think we should give back Texas to Mexico...or 80% of the USA to the Native Americans. Or perhaps Australia back to the aboriginees?


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## Witmaster (Jul 10, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> That is highly inaccurate. Once Palestine was butt-fucked out of their land 60 years ago the Israelis proceeded with mass killings and exile of the Palestinians from the portions handed removed from Palestinian control. They didn't like it too much so they started killing people. Whether this was wrong or not, don't try to absolve Israel of their wrongdoings.
> 
> Furthermore, the media in the USA portrays a vastly different picture than that of many other European countries like Greece, Australia, and Italy. The media here largely ignores reports of Israeli attacks on Palestinian civilians, or twists the stories appropriately to make them seem less malicious than they really are.
> 
> Again, both are committing acts of terror, *but American media organizations really polish up the Israeli side of things big time*.


And yet this same media doesn't hesitate to criminalize U.S. Troop activities in Iraq and Afghanistan  You'd think our "peace-loving" media heads would be all over these attrocities commited by Israel.

And how the hell is my statement innacurate? I'm not denying that Israel has bloody hands but let's look at Palestine's record a moment:

1. Fatah, the largest, was founded in 1956 by a group of young Gazans. It was, and STILL IS, the military arm of the P.L.O. Among the young terrorists was Yasser Arafat. By 1968 Arafat was al Fatah's leader. Among the offshoots of Fatah was the infamous Black September which massacred the Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics. Rent the video, One Day in September, for stunning news footage of this horrendous brutality.

2. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) was the second largest of the commando groups. It was founded in 1967 by George Habash. The P.F.L.P. carried out some spectacular skyjackings in the 1970. But 30+ years does not diminish their thirst for Jewish blood. In October or 2001, several of their operatives murdered the Israeli Government Minister Rechavam "Ghandi" Ze´evi.

3. The Popular Democratic_Front for the Liberation of Palestine split from the P.F.L.P. which it accused of not being militant enough. This group carried out the terrorist raid on Ma'alot in May of 1974 in which 21 young Israeli school children were murdered.

4. The Popular_Frony for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command was another splinter group of the P.F.L.P. They were responsible for the 1974 incursion into Northern Israel in which 16 residents of Kiryat Shemona were murdered.

5. Al_Saiqa was formed by Syria in 1967 and was tightly controlled by Syrian intelligence. Most of its terror participants were Arab-Palestinian refugees who fled to Syria during the 1948 and 1967 Arab-Israel wars.

Just do a google search for terrorist profiles and you'll find a shitload of references to PLO-Based organizations (Among many others as well)


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## DOMS (Jul 10, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> And yet this same media doesn't hesitate to criminalize U.S. Troop activities in Iraq and Afghanistan  You'd think our "peace-loving" media heads would be all over these attrocities commited by Israel.
> 
> And how the hell is my statement innacurate? I'm not denying that Israel has bloody hands but let's look at Palestine's record a moment:
> 
> ...


And now watch as they "neutral" people jump to the defense of the Palestinians buy trying counter with points against the Jews. Most of which will be old shit, opinionated, or simply not be comparable, but they'll imply it.


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## CowPimp (Jul 10, 2006)

To Witmaster, you're right.  I don't really know what I meant when I responded.  I re-read your post and it makes sense.  

Like you said it's a polarizing issue, and it just pisses me off when everyone downplays Israel's bloody hands and blames everything on the Palestinians.  The Palestinians were fucked over and got pissed off, plain and simple.  The Palestinians have a right to be angry for the theft of their land and the exile and murder of their people.  The Israelis have a right to be mad because the PLO kills innocent civilians all the time.  Calling one worst than the other is stupid though.

Again, why does the US side with either one?  Leave both of them the fuck alone in my opinion.  It's not our problem.  We have our own shit to deal with right now.




			
				lnvanry said:
			
		

> Israel tried to take steps such as the gaza withdrawl....and then hamas got elected, the jewish step at giving some of its land back the supposed "rightful" onwers was ruined...ruined with a welcome of random kasam rockets and an abduction of a soldier...who looks like a little boy and a dork.
> 
> rightful---who owned the land before the arabs and saladin conquered it??? It was the jews....they had then arabs had it...then the christians had it...then the arabs had it....NOW the jews have it. Not to mention they were attacked in the six days war by Egypt, Palestinians, and Syria...they got their ass handed to in 1 week   They lost their land...in which they could have kept if they didn't provocate a war.
> 
> war spoils....do you think we should give back Texas to Mexico...or 80% of the USA to the Native Americans. Or perhaps Australia back to the aboriginees?



I never said give Israel back to the Palestinians.  However, your point shows some of why it was wrong to take it away in the first place.


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## Big Smoothy (Jul 10, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> care to site that?
> 
> strapping bombs on people and sending them into a bus that is...



They do the same thing: killing civilians.

No, the Israelis don't strap bomb and blow u buses.

The Israelis shoot and kill people with American Apache helicopters, guns, and tanks.  

Collective punishment.

Restricting how deep Arabs in the West Bank can dig a well (water is gold), while the Jews in the West Bank can dig as deep as they want.  (Irrigation apatheid.)


----------



## KelJu (Jul 11, 2006)

TheGreatSatan said:
			
		

> it's funny how they've been bombing the crap out of Palestine.  In the US that would not fly.  You'd have thousands of Libs standing up for the terrorists.  It's nice knowing they could care less about the commy libs and just keep the bombs coming.




Lawl...families being bombed to death is pretty funny. I bet 9/11 was funnier than Chris Rock's last stand-up. Hey didn't you lose a close friend here lately? Did you find that funny too? 

Just trying to get a good understanding of your sense of humor. I'm not sure if you just enjoy people being mangled in a mass of fire and debris or if you had some weird death/humor thing going on.


----------



## fUnc17 (Jul 11, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Not true.  Simply let the Israelis kill the Palestinians.  Peace accomplished.



Peace by genocide? Not an easy thing considering Israel is surrounded by sworn enemy's.


----------



## GFR (Jul 11, 2006)

KelJu said:
			
		

> Lawl...families being bombed to death is pretty funny. I bet 9/11 was funnier than Chris Rock's last stand-up. Hey didn't you lose a close friend here lately? Did you find that funny too?
> 
> Just trying to get a good understanding of your sense of humor. I'm not sure if you just enjoy people being mangled in a mass of fire and debris or if you had some weird death/humor thing going on.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 11, 2006)

fUnc17 said:
			
		

> Peace by genocide? Not an easy thing considering Israel is surrounded by sworn enemy's.



Israel kicked the asses of its bigger neighbors decades ago and the gap of power has only widened.  There are two possible outcomes; 1, the Israelis win.  2, everybody in the Middle East loses.

I fail to see the downside.


----------



## goob (Jul 11, 2006)

Anyone actually know any Israli's?
I met loads (amongst many other nationalities) when I was travelling on my tour around the world, and as much as I hate to generalise (cos theres good and bad everywhere)- the biggest nation of insular pricks in the world.  They looked down upon other nationalities and kept themselves seperate from anyone else.  I can understand an element of this due to the pressure situation the country finds itself in, but it did not explain why they were nearly all such dicks.  I hope in vain that the situation  could be resolved peacefully, but we all know that its leading down a one way road to a firey destructive hell.


----------



## BigDyl (Jul 11, 2006)

I don't know, I met some israeli's at a mail that were trying to sell me soap, and they were nice.  I also met this palestinian student who was cool.  You can't generalize a whole culture.


----------



## Witmaster (Jul 11, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

> I don't know, *I met some israeli's at a mail* that were trying to sell me soap, and they were nice. I also met this palestinian student who was cool. You can't generalize a whole culture.


did you mean Male or Mall?


----------



## BigDyl (Jul 11, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> did you mean Male or Mall?





He was a hot male.  I mean at the mall.


----------



## fUnc17 (Jul 11, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Israel kicked the asses of its bigger neighbors decades ago and the gap of power has only widened.  There are two possible outcomes; 1, the Israelis win.  2, everybody in the Middle East loses.
> 
> I fail to see the downside.



i am not doubting israel's capability to take over the middle east faster than it has in the past. It is not the end all be all. If it was, it would've happened already.


----------



## pumpthatiron (Jul 11, 2006)

i would love to see israel take over its neighboring countries... if and when they start doing that, and america doesn't stop them, Pakistan is gonna come to the support of Israel's neighboring countries and Pak got nukes, don't mess...


----------



## Pepper (Jul 11, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> i would love to see israel take over its neighboring countries... if and when they start doing that, and america doesn't stop them, Pakistan is gonna come to the support of Israel's neighboring countries and Pak got nukes, don't mess...


 
yeah, that would be fun.


----------



## TheGreatSatan (Jul 13, 2006)

KelJu said:
			
		

> Lawl...families being bombed to death is pretty funny. I bet 9/11 was funnier than Chris Rock's last stand-up. Hey didn't you lose a close friend here lately? Did you find that funny too?
> 
> Just trying to get a good understanding of your sense of humor. I'm not sure if you just enjoy people being mangled in a mass of fire and debris or if you had some weird death/humor thing going on.



The Palestinian terrorists and their families that support them deserve to die.  Man, woman, or children.  My friend didn't die for DUMBASS Allah.


----------



## GFR (Jul 14, 2006)

TheGreatSatan said:
			
		

> The Palestinian terrorists and their families that support them deserve to die.  Man, woman, or children.  My friend didn't die for DUMBASS Allah.


Idiot


----------



## Nick+ (Jul 14, 2006)

TheGreatSatan said:
			
		

> The Palestinian terrorists and their families that support them deserve to die. Man, woman, or children. My friend didn't die for DUMBASS Allah.



You are a f***ing prat.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 14, 2006)

TheGreatSatan said:
			
		

> The Palestinian terrorists and their families that support them deserve to die.  Man, woman, or children.  My friend didn't die for DUMBASS Allah.



You're right.  Your friend died for a combination of lies, corporate greed, and Christian fundamentalist mentality all under the guise of national security.


----------



## goandykid (Jul 14, 2006)

TheGreatSatan said:
			
		

> The Palestinian terrorists and their families that support them deserve to die.  Man, woman, or children.  My friend didn't die for DUMBASS Allah.



Slow down Satan... I know you're hurt but I thought it was Snafu's evil twin when I read this


----------



## TheGreatSatan (Jul 14, 2006)

It's true.


----------



## Pepper (Jul 14, 2006)

The support for Palestine on this site is surprising and a bit disturbing.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 14, 2006)

Pepper said:
			
		

> The support for Palestine on this site is surprising and a bit disturbing.



I think it's more along the lines of motherfucking stupid.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 14, 2006)

Pepper said:
			
		

> The support for Palestine on this site is surprising and a bit disturbing.



What's disturbing is the monetary and political support that Israel receives from the USA.  We should have the same policy with them as we do with the Palestinians.


----------



## aceshigh (Jul 14, 2006)

if u support israel u support genocide therefore u would have supported hitler who would have wiped out the jews its like a catch 22


----------



## Pepper (Jul 14, 2006)

aceshigh said:
			
		

> if u support israel u support genocide therefore u would have supported hitler who would have wiped out the jews its like a catch 22


 
I assume (and hope) you are kidding.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 14, 2006)

Pepper said:
			
		

> I assume (and hope) you are kidding.


 He's not.


----------



## TheGreatSatan (Jul 14, 2006)

Genocide?

Revenge and justice.


----------



## Pirate! (Jul 14, 2006)

The US vetoed the UN resolution calling for Israel to leave Gaza. 



> But Israeli Ambassador Dan Gillerman asked the other governments present how they would have reacted had their neighbors fired rockets at their people and infiltrated their territory to seize soldiers.
> 
> "Would you just sit back and take it or would you do exactly what Israel is doing at this very minute -- making every effort to protect its people and allow them to live in the peace and security they long for," he said.
> 
> "For us, every dead Palestinian child is a mistake and a tragedy. For them, every dead Israeli child is a victory and a cause for celebration," Gillerman said.



In the end, Israel will suffer horribly (the bible foretells of this war), but I empathize with them on this. The U.S. will be in this war very soon. Then it will become a world war--it actually already is. Britain needs to get their balls wet on this one. They are acting like quite frenchies right now.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 14, 2006)

> "For us, every dead Palestinian child is a mistake and a tragedy. For them, every dead Israeli child is a victory and a cause for celebration," Gillerman said.



The former is a complete load of horseshit.  The latter is probably true to some extent, but exaggerated.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 14, 2006)

War. A con-servative's wet dream come true.


----------



## largepkg (Jul 14, 2006)

I'm lean more to the conservative side and you're wrong. It would be great to believe the world could be this perfect place like a Disney ride.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 14, 2006)

I understand. . .so the perfect solution is to kill everyone who doesn't want to kill everyone else...and then kill each other...until there is, like, no one left to operate the Disney ride except the one con-servative who will kill himself when he has no one left to blame or target.


----------



## BigDyl (Jul 14, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> I understand. . .so the perfect solution is to kill everyone who doesn't want to kill everyone else...and then kill each other...until there is, like, no one left to operate the Disney ride except the one con-servative who will kill himself when he has no one left to blame or target.



I'll kill you.


----------



## largepkg (Jul 14, 2006)

KBM, I don't have the answers, do you? It's just not as simple as everyone here makes it seem. I consider myself to be very practical and the way things are playing out I don't see a way out. If you see a practical way I'm more than interested in hearing it.


----------



## Witmaster (Jul 14, 2006)

aceshigh said:
			
		

> if u support israel u support genocide therefore u would have supported hitler who would have wiped out the jews its like a catch 22


Well since we're now profiling on the basis of biased generalizations I'll just add....


If you read this post and agree with this post then you are an Innocuous mind-numbed fool with little to no hope of recovering from the vacuous space that was supposed to house a brain.


----------



## Witmaster (Jul 14, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> War. A con-servative's wet dream come true.


Good God you are more fucked up than I had ever imagined


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 14, 2006)

largepkg said:
			
		

> KBM, I don't have the answers, do you? It's just not as simple as everyone here makes it seem. I consider myself to be very practical and the way things are playing out I don't see a way out. If you see a practical way I'm more than interested in hearing it.




Well, I think the first idea might be to discuss why someone's family, who may not be interested or involved in this political bullshit, should be made a human sacrifice for "revenge" or "anger." Bombs just don't blow up the people we're after - they blow up the ones who have nothing to do with the situation and just happen to live there and have no place to go. It doesn't matter a whole lot whether they fall out of a jet or are strapped onto someone's meet-my-maker's body. 

Another idea might be to actually take a vote - let's see how many people advocate the murder of countless innocents on either side and how willing they are to make themselves and their families human fodder for that situation. All the people who vote yes can line up opposite each other and glorify themselves to kingdom com having an orgasm over killing each other. And the last one standing can get killed by the people who voted to stop the fucked up madness to begin with - we'd like to help every rapture-lover get a chance to meet his maker in the glory of battle.  

The next idea would be to, perhaps, threaten to nuke the whole fu*king Holy Land in an effort to remove, once and for all, the slipshod bullshit that passes for "religion" used to murder each other. There's not much reason to have "holy cities" if they are used as battlegrounds over ownership of wailing rights. Hmm...now that's a con-servative viewpoint. . .our own neo-cons wouldn't need to have sex for a year if we'd use a nuclear weapon somewhere...


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 14, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Good God you are more fucked up than I had ever imagined


    

What is the first reaction that a neo-con makes when something happens in the world?


----------



## Witmaster (Jul 14, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> What is the first reaction that a neo-con makes when something happens in the world?


I don't know but it doesn't make you any less fucked up


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 14, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> I don't know but it doesn't make you any less fucked up




  Memory lapse. . .you must be working for the White House.


----------



## largepkg (Jul 14, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> Well, I think the first idea might be to discuss why someone's family, who may not be interested or involved in this political bullshit, should be made a human sacrifice for "revenge" or "anger." Bombs just don't blow up the people we're after - they blow up the ones who have nothing to do with the situation and just happen to live there and have no place to go. It doesn't matter a whole lot whether they fall out of a jet or are strapped onto someone's meet-my-maker's body. *I disagree*
> 
> Another idea might be to actually take a vote - let's see how many people advocate the murder of countless innocents on either side and how willing they are to make themselves and their families human fodder for that situation. All the people who vote yes can line up opposite each other and glorify themselves to kingdom com having an orgasm over killing each other. And the last one standing can get killed by the people who voted to stop the fucked up madness to begin with - we'd like to help every rapture-lover get a chance to meet his maker in the glory of battle.  *Just like the dems and rep they'll vote along party lines. This is not a practical solution.*
> 
> The next idea would be to, perhaps, threaten to nuke the whole fu*king Holy Land in an effort to remove, once and for all, the slipshod bullshit that passes for "religion" used to murder each other. There's not much reason to have "holy cities" if they are used as battlegrounds over ownership of wailing rights. Hmm...now that's a con-servative viewpoint. . .our own neo-cons wouldn't need to have sex for a year if we'd use a nuclear weapon somewhere...*I like the way you think here! Just blow up the whole Middle East and call it a day.*


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jul 15, 2006)

The U.S. government supports war, wants war, and wages war.

The American government realized this during WWII.

It stimulated jobs and created a power Military Industrial Complex. 

Bit government, too.


----------



## GFR (Jul 15, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Good God you are more fucked up than I had ever imagined





			
				kbm8795 said:
			
		

> What is the first reaction that a neo-con makes when something happens in the world?


I agree, when warmongers and wingnuts have no intelligent and/or  logical  response they just call names.


----------



## joesmooth20 (Jul 15, 2006)

Is it wrong to think the world should ban the practice of Islam?


----------



## Witmaster (Jul 15, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> I agree, when warmongers and wingnuts have no intelligent and/or logical response they just call names.


Hey... if the shoe fits ....


----------



## GFR (Jul 15, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> Hey... if the shoe fits ....


You see that, young lady? Respect. Respect for one's elders gives character.


----------



## goob (Jul 15, 2006)

" i fought the war,
  i fought the war
  i fought the war
  but the war won,
  stop for the love of god"

"Metric" - Monster hospital.

Never a truer word spoken in song. 

War has no winners (except for US oil interests)


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 15, 2006)

largepkg, how do you disagree with kbm's first statement?  It is a resolute fact that there are mass innocent casualties in war.  You can't deny it.  Or do you just disagree with his statement that innocent people don't deserve to die?


----------



## fUnc17 (Jul 15, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> The former is a complete load of horseshit.  The latter is probably true to some extent, but exaggerated.



thats bullshit, CP. your just taking from what he said what you want to hear and twisting it. he said what he said and it is 100% true. Israel is a LOGICAL country. You cannot use logic to describe what the PLO is doing. They are not logical, civilized normal people! They are brainwashed from birth to learn to hate, they have an extremist religion which gives them a reason to kill AS MANY PEOPLE AS THEY CAN. Do you think the suicide bomber walking on the bus checks to make sure theres no children on the bus? Fuck no! The more the merrier! The PLO doesn't distinguish between races, gender, or nationality... they think everyone that does not think like them needs to die. 

When has the PLO ever built any fucking houses, buildings, or business'? All they know how to do is blow shit up, they offer nothing to the human race, they're a god damn disease.

It is like Israel is living in the jungles of vietfuckingNam. The PLO is using guerrilla warfare against them because they know using conventional warfare will cause them to be completely eliminated. You think Israel doesn't want to live in peace? Imagine the pressure that government has on upon itself from all its citizens sick of tired of getting blown the fuck up by some lunatic. 

Thats the thing. The PLO WANTS TO KILL PEOPLE, they dont want to stop, EVER, until every Israeli is GONE. And who says they want to stop there? What if all of a sudden suicide bombers start attacking the shit out of the U.S. Would you want to live in that shit? And wouldn't you want something done about it? We can't make everyone happy, it isn't going to work, and some people will disagree... but taking that differing view so far extreme to the point where they're willing to kill innocent people to get their displeasure accross is DISGUSTING and is deservant of everything they got coming to them.

The PLO is a joke and is laughing there ass off at every pussy american saying what they are doing is "just" because of what Israel is doing. Thats fucking pathetic. Grow some balls people.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 15, 2006)

fUnc17 said:
			
		

> When has the PLO ever built any fucking houses, buildings, or business'? All they know how to do is blow shit up, they offer nothing to the human race, they're a god damn disease.



Exactly.  If they succeed against the Jews with suicide bombers, they'll going doing as standard practice.  And I'm sure that dumbass people all over the world will be saying stupid shit like, "They're only blowing people up to get a better import price on wheat."


----------



## largepkg (Jul 15, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> largepkg, how do you disagree with kbm's first statement?  It is a resolute fact that there are mass innocent casualties in war.  You can't deny it.  Or do you just disagree with his statement that innocent people don't deserve to die?






			
				kbm8795 said:
			
		

> It doesn't matter a whole lot whether they fall out of a jet or are strapped onto someone's meet-my-maker's body.




Like I said I disagree!


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 15, 2006)

fUnc, you're delusional if you think those in charge of the Israeli military care about killing civilians.  It's also ridiculous to say that all Palestinians celebrate the deaths of innocent Israeli citizens.  Yeah, the nutjob extremists do, but only a small fraction of them are nutjob extremists.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 15, 2006)

largepkg said:
			
		

> Like I said I disagree!



Okay, thanks for the clarification.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 15, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> fUnc, *you're delusional if you think those in charge of the Israeli military care about killing civilians.* *It's also ridiculous to say that all Palestinians celebrate the deaths of innocent Israeli citizens.*  Yeah, the nutjob extremists do, but only a small fraction of them are nutjob extremists.



So, they Jews don't care shit about civilians, and the Palestinians are just misunderstood.

Why don't you just fess up to being the anti-Semite that you are?  I can't stand Muslims and freely say so.  Why can't you do the same with the Jews?  Why the lies?


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 15, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> So, they Jews don't care shit about civilians, and the Palestinians are just misunderstood.
> 
> Why don't you just fess up to being the anti-Semite that you are?  I can't stand Muslims and freely say so.  Why can't you do the same with the Jews?  Why the lies?



Stop twisting my posts!  You highlight everything but the very last sentence where I state the the extremist PLO people celebrate the deaths of innocent civilians.  Plus, you take no note that I said THOSE IN CHARGE OF THE ISRAELI MILITARY don't care about killing innocent civilians, not all of Israel; very big difference.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 15, 2006)

Basically, I think most people who have power are a bunch of scumbags, everywhere.  Plain and simple.  Many of those in the US government are a bunch of scumbags, but I can't pass down that judgement to all of the citizens.  

The PLO and Israeli citizens are both getting fucked because the extremists and people with power have to continue having their goddamned pissing contests.  Really, I'm more of an anarchist than anything.  People can't have power without becoming corrupt.  It's fucking ridiculous.


----------



## KelJu (Jul 15, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Basically, I think most people who have power are a bunch of scumbags, everywhere.  Plain and simple.  Many of those in the US government are a bunch of scumbags, but I can't pass down that judgement to all of the citizens.
> 
> The PLO and Israeli citizens are both getting fucked because the extremists and people with power have to continue having their goddamned pissing contests.  Really, I'm more of an anarchist than anything.  People can't have power without becoming corrupt.  It's fucking ridiculous.



"Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 15, 2006)

KelJu said:
			
		

> "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."



I love that quote.


----------



## pumpthatiron (Jul 15, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> So, they Jews don't care shit about civilians, and the Palestinians are just misunderstood.
> 
> Why don't you just fess up to being the anti-Semite that you are?  <b>I can't stand Muslims and freely say so.</b>  Why can't you do the same with the Jews?  Why the lies?



DOMs, you generalize all Muslims, and your hate for "Muslims" just goes to show your ignorance.  Well I'm not going to waste my time on a lost cause, and you definitely aren't worth my time.  Hopefully you will realize there is something inside of your head, and make use of it before spreading hate and violence...


----------



## fUnc17 (Jul 15, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> fUnc, you're delusional if you think those in charge of the Israeli military care about killing civilians.  It's also ridiculous to say that all Palestinians celebrate the deaths of innocent Israeli citizens.  Yeah, the nutjob extremists do, but only a small fraction of them are nutjob extremists.


when the fuck did i say that? Israel singles out terrorists, not innocents, they try to kill the ones doing the killing. the PLO/hezbollah, etc. on the other hand does not distinguish between civilian, child, innocent, etc... they just kill as many as they can. And they are ALL nutbag extremists!! Would you feel safe living there? FUCK NO! The only reason they constitute any sort of problem to Israel is the first place is because the majority of them are nutbag extremists.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 15, 2006)

fUnc17 said:
			
		

> when the fuck did i say that?



Look at what I quoted when I made the post that you responded to in the first place.




> Israel singles out terrorists, not innocents, they try to kill the ones doing the killing. the PLO/hezbollah, etc. on the other hand does not distinguish between civilian, child, innocent, etc... they just kill as many as they can.



You are just naive, or you are lacking good sources of information because the American press doesn't publish all the stories of civilian deaths committed by the Israeli military like many foreign sources do.  Both of them kill plenty of innocents; Israel just tries to pretend like they actually care.




> And they are ALL nutbag extremists!! Would you feel safe living there? FUCK NO! The only reason they constitute any sort of problem to Israel is the first place is because the majority of them are nutbag extremists.



No they aren't.  Ridiculous nonsense.


----------



## fUnc17 (Jul 15, 2006)

> You are just naive, or you are lacking good sources of information because the American press doesn't publish all the stories of civilian deaths committed by the Israeli military like many foreign sources do. Both of them kill plenty of innocents; Israel just tries to pretend like they actually care.


Not at all. I draw my own conclusions from many sources. Does Israel kill civilians? Yes. Does the USA kill civilians? Yes. Do they do it on purpose? I highly doubt they do it purposely. Palestine is not a country, Israel is. We know for a fact the PLO kills civilians intentionally... you dont just blow up a bus full of commuters and say they arent innocent civilians because their mind is too clouded with religious bullshit.

And yes they are all extremists, everyone of them. There is not one that is not sympathetic to the cause of the PLO, and if there was/is they would be killed by the PLO or one of their death squads. 

I'd rather see the developed, established country of Israel succeed and make its region better than see the impoverished, no good, suicide vest wearing maniacs destroy everything. They don't give anything back to this world but violence and hate. They don't know how to build a bridge, they just know how to blow it up.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 15, 2006)

fUnc17 said:
			
		

> Not at all. I draw my own conclusions from many sources. Does Israel kill civilians? Yes. Does the USA kill civilians? Yes. Do they do it on purpose? I highly doubt they do it purposely. Palestine is not a country, Israel is. We know for a fact the PLO kills civilians intentionally... you dont just blow up a bus full of commuters and say they arent innocent civilians because their mind is too clouded with religious bullshit.



Again, I still think you're naive, but to each his own.




> And yes they are all extremists, everyone of them. There is not one that is not sympathetic to the cause of the PLO, and if there was/is they would be killed by the PLO or one of their death squads.



Again, I still say you're being completely ridiculous.




> I'd rather see the developed, established country of Israel succeed and make its region better than see the impoverished, no good, suicide vest wearing maniacs destroy everything. They don't give anything back to this world but violence and hate. They don't know how to build a bridge, they just know how to blow it up.



Israel is out of their fucking minds.  They are going ballistic on Lebanon now too.  War mongers like them don't deserve what they have.

We just need to segregate ourselves from the Middle East.  At this point I feel like it's a lost cause.  It will probably never end.


----------



## TheGreatSatan (Jul 15, 2006)

fUnc17, you are awesome.  ANyone who doesn't understand where you are coming from is an idiot.  If they lived there a day, they'd change their position.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 15, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> DOMs, you generalize all Muslims, and your hate for "Muslims" just goes to show your ignorance.  Well I'm not going to waste my time on a lost cause, and you definitely aren't worth my time.



Your time isn't worth anything.  So?


----------



## largepkg (Jul 15, 2006)

TheGreatSatan said:
			
		

> fUnc17, you are awesome.  ANyone who doesn't understand where you are coming from is an idiot.  If they lived there a day, they'd change their position.


----------



## maniclion (Jul 16, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> The PLO and Israeli citizens are both getting fucked because the extremists and people with power have to continue having their goddamned pissing contests.  Really, I'm more of an anarchist than anything.  People can't have power without becoming corrupt.  It's fucking ridiculous.


Exactly, if all Muslims are crazed extremists as many of you defending Isreal think then why is there a mass exodus of Muslims from Lebanon to Syria right now who are just trying to escape the violence?


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 16, 2006)

Meanwhile, the Great Decider is managing to make a fool out of himself in Russia. . .touting the success of Iraq's "democracy" as he pressures Russia to make more reforms. . .and Putin gets a slam in at their press conference:

http://images1.americanprogress.org/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/2006/putinbush.320.240.mov


----------



## aceshigh (Jul 16, 2006)

Putin is gonna kick some ass real soon


----------



## TheGreatSatan (Jul 16, 2006)

As soon as he stops getting PAID by Iran.


----------



## largepkg (Jul 16, 2006)

maniclion said:
			
		

> Exactly, if all Muslims are crazed extremists as many of you defending Isreal think then why is there a mass exodus of Muslims from Lebanon to Syria right now who are just trying to escape the violence?




Lebanon has a lot of citizen that completely disagree with Hezbollah and their actions. Those are the ones leaving. I'm sure there are people in Palestine with the same views, just not as many I suspect.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 16, 2006)

largepkg said:
			
		

> Lebanon has a lot of citizen that completely disagree with Hezbollah and their actions. Those are the ones leaving. I'm sure there are people in Palestine with the same views, just not as many I suspect.



Too bad a lot of them are trapped beacuse Israel blew up 50 different bridges and their airport.  I think this is an overreaction.  There are almost 150 Lebanese dead after only a few days, a significant percentage of them completely innocent citizens.  These estimates are expected to increase as more deaths are reported too.  Who knows how many injured, and how many homeless or without power.


----------



## Pirate! (Jul 16, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> We just need to segregate ourselves from the Middle East.  At this point I feel like it's a lost cause.  It will probably never end.


I couldn't agree more. 

Unfortunately, our country's leaders feel that every country in the world needs to be a democracy. It's kind of like the Old Catholic church. Convert or be destroyed. That strategy simply doesn't work. The U.S. interest in Israel is in large based on the idea that Israel represents democracy in the Middle East. It isn't all money, corruption, social/political idealism, hate, self-interest etc. There are many factors.

No matter what you attribute it to, it is a tragedy. Yes, leaders from all the countries realize and accept that they are killing innocents--including children. The U.S. did the same thing in the Vietnamese war and every other war for that matter.

When it comes down to it, I detest these terrorist groups like Hezbollah. It was founded by a one of the world's foremost crackerjacks, Khomeini. In the 24 years of its existence, it has simply brought suffering and death to mankind. Any organization whose sole purpose is it to bring down others in an attempt to lift up one's self is corrupt and evil to begin with. Lebanon holds the responsibilities that come from harboring Hezbollah. It continues to be funded by Iran and Syria, too. If we let some other country start its own government and run the southern United States, what defense would we have when they start terrorizing other countries? Do you think the world would say, ???It isn't the U.S. It's just the entire government that happens to be occupying the south?

Sure Israel has gone ape shit. They are fed up. My biggest concern is that the U.S. doesn???t start fighting this war. Iraq is a huge disaster, and we need to work toward just getting ourselves the hell out of that part of the world???including Afghanistan--and accept that oil prices are going way up.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 16, 2006)

And now eight Canadians are dead, along with four German-Lebanese and four Brazilians. . .


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jul 16, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> *We just need to segregate ourselves from the Middle East.  At this point I feel like it's a lost cause.  It will probably never end.*



I agree.    

This means that the U.S. stops:


1. Sending all aid to Israel and all Arabic nations

2. Stops selling Arms to all countries

3. Stays out diplomatically and militarilly, but conducts trade.


----------



## shiznit2169 (Jul 16, 2006)

Take this debate to the government and see what they have to say.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 16, 2006)

shiznit2169 said:
			
		

> Take this debate to the government and see what they have to say.




It's rather obvious what our neo-con controlled, televangelista-influenced government would say. 

War is good for con-servative orgasms.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 16, 2006)

Pirate! said:
			
		

> I couldn't agree more.
> 
> Unfortunately, our country's leaders feel that every country in the world needs to be a democracy. It's kind of like the Old Catholic church. Convert or be destroyed. That strategy simply doesn't work. The U.S. interest in Israel is in large based on the idea that Israel represents democracy in the Middle East. It isn't all money, corruption, social/political idealism, hate, self-interest etc. There are many factors.
> 
> ...



Some good points, but I don't think the US is as interested in spreading democracy as you think.  We have worked to keep certain dictators in power because it lets us avoid a slowdown from beuraucracy or opposition when corporations here want to take advantage of cheap labor in other countries.  As long as the dictator sees eye to eye with us it's okay.  It's more about money than a lot of people would like to admit.

Furthermore, if we allowed many Middle Eastern countires to be democratic, then they would still be religious governments that wouldn't do things the way we like them to be done.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 16, 2006)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> I agree.
> 
> This means that the U.S. stops:
> 
> ...



I agree.


----------



## fUnc17 (Jul 16, 2006)

shiznit2169 said:
			
		

> Take this debate to the government and see what they have to say.


it's about $$$$ not body bags. for one country to get more wealthy, another country has to lose an equal amount of wealth. Thats why there is war, nothing more nothing less


----------



## lnvanry (Jul 16, 2006)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> I agree.
> 
> This means that the U.S. stops:
> 
> ...





Those three are almost  synonomous...at least trade and diplomat matters.


----------



## GFR (Jul 16, 2006)

fUnc17 said:
			
		

> it's about $$$$ not body bags. for one country to get more wealthy, another country has to lose an equal amount of wealth. *Thats why there is war, nothing more nothing less*


----------



## JordanMang (Jul 16, 2006)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> I agree.
> 
> This means that the U.S. stops:
> 
> ...



The last time America did this the following happened

18 warships, 188 aircraft and 2,403 servicemen were lost in the attack.

Hundreds of men were drowned to death, and the lucky ones simply died of bullet or shrapnel wounds.


----------



## fUnc17 (Jul 16, 2006)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> I agree.
> 
> This means that the U.S. stops:
> 
> ...



bold


----------



## bio-chem (Jul 16, 2006)

fUnc17 said:
			
		

> it's about $$$$ not body bags. for one country to get more wealthy, another country has to lose an equal amount of wealth. Thats why there is war, nothing more nothing less


wrong answers from the economically uninformed alex.  one party does not have to weaken for another to get stronger. the point is for the economic pie to grow so there is more for everyone not who fights over the biggest piece.  go back to econ 101


----------



## fUnc17 (Jul 16, 2006)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> wrong answers from the economically uninformed alex.  one party does not have to weaken for another to get stronger. the point is for the economic pie to grow so there is more for everyone not who fights over the biggest piece.  go back to econ 101



the "economic pie" is a relative term. the pie might increase, but the percentages stay the same. and in order for a percentage to go up in one country, another must lose.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 17, 2006)

fUnc, money isn't everything.  Why should we support terrorism to make money?  That is ridiculous.


----------



## JordanMang (Jul 17, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> fUnc, money isn't everything.  Why should we support terrorism to make money?  That is ridiculous.




As bad as it sounds CowPimp these ideas are bit high minded.  I think it has less to do with supporting the terrorist groups and more to do with looking the other way.  If two guys came up to you and you were a bank security officer, and they both said "Look, we're gonna rob this bank eitherway. If you just fall over and don't shoot then we'll give you 1000$" you can't say it wouldn't be tempting.  It's the same thing x 1,000,000,000,000.  As the old saying goes "Every man has his price."


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 17, 2006)

JordanMang said:
			
		

> As bad as it sounds CowPimp these ideas are bit high minded.  I think it has less to do with supporting the terrorist groups and more to do with looking the other way.  If two guys came up to you and you were a bank security officer, and they both said "Look, we're gonna rob this bank eitherway. If you just fall over and don't shoot then we'll give you 1000$" you can't say it wouldn't be tempting.  It's the same thing x 1,000,000,000,000.  As the old saying goes "Every man has his price."



I hate ridiculous analogies like that.  It is such a distant comparison.  It's all just a poor attempt at rhetoric.

I don't see how funding Israel helps in any way shape or form; that is many billions of dollars that does nothing but make people hate us, and rightfully so.  

We should not be funding terrorism, especially since we're carrying out a war on terror simultaneously.  Oh wait, terrorism is okay if it's committed against Muslims, I forgot; only the reverse is bad.


----------



## JordanMang (Jul 17, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> I hate ridiculous analogies like that.  It is such a distant comparison.  It's all just a poor attempt at rhetoric.
> 
> I don't see how funding Israel helps in any way shape or form; that is many billions of dollars that does nothing but make people hate us, and rightfully so.
> 
> We should not be funding terrorism, especially since we're carrying out a war on terror simultaneously.  Oh wait, terrorism is okay if it's committed against Muslims, I forgot; only the reverse is bad.



I agree.  I may not approve of some of the decisions made by this goverment, but I can understand the reasoning behind it.  Quite frankly; I'm afraid.  It seems like when the USA should be entering a age of peace and prosperity; the latter is going to happen but only because of the blood of our troops.  GWB is entering his last quarter pretty soon, and America is going to have a new President.  Now we've got Israel attacking Lebanon, North Korea firing Nukes, and who knows what else is in store for us in the next 2 years.  I'm ashamed to call GWB a Texan ( which he's really not ).  I'm going to go to his house and protest. Be back in 20 minutes.


----------



## fUnc17 (Jul 17, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> fUnc, money isn't everything.  Why should we support terrorism to make money?  That is ridiculous.



To me it isn't everything, but to the people that run the US and other countries it is. It has to be, it is a neccesary evil. Money is like the devil on your shoulder.

And the US does not support terrorism, they support Israel. A country attacking another country is not terrorism, it is simply war. Whether it is right or not is a completely different story. I won't waste time arguing if it is right or not because if someone believes it is right, and i believe it is wrong or visa versa theres nothing I can do or they can do to change my opinion. The fact of the matter is that it IS happening. 

Things can spin out of control EXTREMELY quickly, that is why tony blair and koffi annan are calling for international intervention. Israel is not going to stop until their soldiers are safely returned and for that to happen, Hezbollah or whoever has them is going to look like a bunch of pussies and thats the last thing they will look like, they'd rather be dead than give in to their enemy. Also, supposivedly Iranian + syrian made missiles are being fired at Israel, reaching deeper into Israel than ever before. Israel isn't going to wait for them to finally reach Tel Aviv, and if it means going to war with syria, and Iran as well they will do it, they have the capability and support. At this point, if another country is provoked into this by any other one, shit is going to hit the fan real hard. Especially with the US in the middle of it all.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 17, 2006)

fUnc17 said:
			
		

> To me it isn't everything, but to the people that run the US and other countries it is. It has to be, it is a neccesary evil. Money is like the devil on your shoulder.



It shouldn't be; that's one of the problems with humans.




> And the US does not support terrorism, they support Israel. A country attacking another country is not terrorism, it is simply war.



Define terrorism for me then.  If attacking another country isn't terrorism, then 9-11 wasn't terrorism.  They attacked a country providing a massive level of funding to a country their brethren were at war with.  It's just war, not terrorism, according to you.

Not to mention Israel isn't the only instance of the US supporting terrorism (Yes, I feel it's terrorism, but we can agree to disagree here).  How about the Iran contra scandal?  How about to sale of arms to the Taliban?  The installation of a dictatorship in Panama?  The overthrow of a democratic Hatian government?  The support of a Chilean dictatorship that sponsored serious human rights violations?  

Unfortunately, you're right about money.  It is the overriding factor in these political decisions that far outweighs human lives and rights.




> Whether it is right or not is a completely different story. I won't waste time arguing if it is right or not because if someone believes it is right, and i believe it is wrong or visa versa theres nothing I can do or they can do to change my opinion. The fact of the matter is that it IS happening.



Fair enough.




> Things can spin out of control EXTREMELY quickly, that is why tony blair and koffi annan are calling for international intervention. Israel is not going to stop until their soldiers are safely returned and for that to happen, Hezbollah or whoever has them is going to look like a bunch of pussies and thats the last thing they will look like, they'd rather be dead than give in to their enemy. Also, supposivedly Iranian + syrian made missiles are being fired at Israel, reaching deeper into Israel than ever before. Israel isn't going to wait for them to finally reach Tel Aviv, and if it means going to war with syria, and Iran as well they will do it, they have the capability and support. At this point, if another country is provoked into this by any other one, shit is going to hit the fan real hard. Especially with the US in the middle of it all.



Yup, shit is spinning out of control, but I still feel like Israel went a little too buck-wild for three soldiers being kidnapped.  Especially considering it was in response to their kidnapping of a Palestinian family from the Gaza Strip and Israel has thousands of Palestinian prisoners on their side.


----------



## JordanMang (Jul 17, 2006)




----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 17, 2006)

And now once again, the Great Decider managed to utter an expletive during a dinner with the heads of the G-8. . .and managed to do it while chewing on a piece of buttered roll....:

http://images1.americanprogress.org/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/2006/bushg8.320.240.mov


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 17, 2006)

JordanMang said:
			
		

>



Ah, the response of someone who lacks anything intelligent to say instead.


----------



## JordanMang (Jul 17, 2006)

I'm confused? Their discussing matters of war, and he uses a swear word?  Let's crucify him for using a curse word.  I'm sorry, but this is probably the dumbest shit I've ever seen someone post.  Next time don't waste 30 seconds of my life.


----------



## JordanMang (Jul 17, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Ah, the response of someone who lacks anything intelligent to say instead.



Not really.  I just felt the Juggernaut had something to say.  I don't respond "intelligently" because no one is going to agree with anyone and just circle talk non-stop.  At some point in this debate ( which is really an argument ) someone is going to have to concede.  If I don't join the race well then I can't lose can I?


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 17, 2006)

JordanMang said:
			
		

> Not really.  I just felt the Juggernaut had something to say.  I don't respond "intelligently" because no one is going to agree with anyone and just circle talk non-stop.  At some point in this debate ( which is really an argument ) someone is going to have to concede.  If I don't join the race well then I can't lose can I?



Haha, okay, whatever.


----------



## JordanMang (Jul 17, 2006)

I think it's what DOMS is posting about in another thread.  It's my human instinct. I'm busy being inherently lazy.  Argument requires thought and analysis. I choose the path of least resistance.  It's not lack of intelligent though, but rather the lack of willpower.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 17, 2006)

JordanMang said:
			
		

> I think it's what DOMS is posting about in another thread.  It's my human instinct. I'm busy being inherently lazy.  Argument requires thought and analysis. I choose the path of least resistance.  It's not lack of intelligent though, but rather the lack of willpower.



I'm being lazy too.  My morning clients rescheduled for other days, so I got to sleep in.  Instead of doing something productive I'm posting in open chat.  Heh.


----------



## JordanMang (Jul 17, 2006)

Oh believe me I know what you mean.  I had a full day planned out.  Some studying, followed by a workout and some cardio, and finally the nightlife.  Alas everything has fallen apart, and I am at odds.  Not to mention other problems.  At least I don't live in a shack in Jamaica though.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 17, 2006)

JordanMang said:
			
		

> I'm confused? Their discussing matters of war, and he uses a swear word?  Let's crucify him for using a curse word.  I'm sorry, but this is probably the dumbest shit I've ever seen someone post.  Next time don't waste 30 seconds of my life.



Of course you are confused. You might act that way at your own dinner table at home, but you wouldn't go to the White House and break bread that way.  It's the President of the United States - the Great Decider, the primary representative of 300 million American people to the rest of the world. . .and he talks with his mouth full and says "shit" in trying to negotiate a multi-nation statement with other world leaders on handling the crisis in the Middle East. 

No wonder the rest of the world no longer respects us.


----------



## JordanMang (Jul 17, 2006)

Actually he was talking specificly to Tony Blair, and he was expressing his personal feelings.  It's called humanity.  I don't expect him to play the role of a speakerbox for the American people who is devoid of feeling.  I expect the President to be a human first, a man second, a protector third, and a speaker for 300 million people last.  I'm not sure to many people care that the president said shit.  He may have poor manners, but at least he's not gonna tell it how it is, and not bullshit you.


----------



## largepkg (Jul 17, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> Of course you are confused. You might act that way at your own dinner table at home, but you wouldn't go to the White House and break bread that way.  It's the President of the United States - the Great Decider, the primary representative of 300 million American people to the rest of the world. . .and he talks with his mouth full and says "shit" in trying to negotiate a multi-nation statement with other world leaders on handling the crisis in the Middle East.
> 
> No wonder the rest of the world no longer respects us.




Oh get off your fucking high horse! You act like the media does. They sensationalize this "shit" word like it means something. Tony Blair is a friend of the President. When your around your friends do you act like a goodie two shoes and watch every word that comes from your mouth? I fucking hope not, but I have a feeling by your self righteous tone you just may.


Good day...


----------



## fUnc17 (Jul 17, 2006)

> Define terrorism for me then. If attacking another country isn't terrorism, then 9-11 wasn't terrorism. They attacked a country providing a massive level of funding to a country their brethren were at war with. It's just war, not terrorism, according to you.


The world trade center was not a military installation, like pearl harbor was. It was attacked by people operating under the guise of regular citizens of the US. They did not acknowledge themselves, they did not attempt diplomacy, they simply attacked the US and destroyed the lives of 3,000+ people because that is their duty as an extremist of Islam. Kill infidels and people who do not think their way. 

Now, you may not agree with how the US went about it's business with Iraq and I understand 100%, but Iraq knows who the US is, they know what a US soldier looks like, they know what our planes, ships and tanks look like. It was not a suprise to them when they saw us, they knew we were coming because we attempted diplomacy first.

To have your country's military and government dismantled is 180 degrees different than having some lunatic crash my countries planes, into my buildings, with my people on them and kill 3,000 of my people. If you were there to see it, you would understand what terrorism was.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 17, 2006)

fUnc17 said:
			
		

> The world trade center was not a military installation, like pearl harbor was. It was attacked by people operating under the guise of regular citizens of the US. They did not acknowledge themselves, they did not attempt diplomacy, they simply attacked the US and destroyed the lives of 3,000+ people because that is their duty as an extremist of Islam. Kill infidels and people who do not think their way.
> 
> Now, you may not agree with how the US went about it's business with Iraq and I understand 100%, but Iraq knows who the US is, they know what a US soldier looks like, they know what our planes, ships and tanks look like. It was not a suprise to them when they saw us, they knew we were coming because we attempted diplomacy first.
> 
> To have your country's military and government dismantled is 180 degrees different than having some lunatic crash my countries planes, into my buildings, with my people on them and kill 3,000 of my people. If you were there to see it, you would understand what terrorism was.



What do you call Israel's attacking of civilian installations in Lebanon (Airports, powerplants, bridges, etc.)?  Remember now, this is the chain of events that just occured: Israel kidnaps a family of Palestinian civilians, Hamas kidnaps an Israeli soldier, Hezbollah kidnaps two Israeli soldiers, Israel reinvades the Gaza Strip and trashes the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon.  I dunno, seems like terrorism to me.

What was your definition again?

What about the other examples I provided?


----------



## DOMS (Jul 17, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> What do you call Israel's attacking of civilian installations in Lebanon (Airports, powerplants, bridges, etc.)?  Remember now, this is the chain of events that just occured: Israel kidnaps a family of Palestinian civilians, Hamas kidnaps an Israeli soldier, Hezbollah kidnaps two Israeli soldiers, Israel reinvades the Gaza Strip and trashes the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon.  I dunno, seems like terrorism to me.



It sounds as though they're attacking the geographic location where the Palestinians are.  Take out their support centers.  It makes good tactical sense.


----------



## Decker (Jul 17, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> What do you call Israel's attacking of civilian installations in Lebanon (Airports, powerplants, bridges, etc.)? Remember now, this is the chain of events that just occured: Israel kidnaps a family of Palestinian civilians, Hamas kidnaps an Israeli soldier, Hezbollah kidnaps two Israeli soldiers, Israel reinvades the Gaza Strip and trashes the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon. I dunno, seems like terrorism to me.
> 
> What was your definition again?
> 
> What about the other examples I provided?


I'm late to the thread. I read the Great Satan's asinine first post and skipped to the last. These mafia-style hits btn Palestine and Israel are like guerilla warfare. They are State-associated/sponsored hits designed to undermine the enemy. The binding tie is that the participants belong to one state or another. I don't know if "terrorism" is appropriate. The word in its largest sense can be defined as a tactic for intimidation. All warfare is terrorism then. The world Court does not define the word. War--terrorism...I think it's a distinction w/out merit and is of importance in discussions of the middle east as some rhetorical ploy that lends an air of superiority to one side of the argument.

Remember, the minutemen and founding fathers could be characterized as terrorists: guerrilla style warfare, night raids of british stronghholds etc.


----------



## fUnc17 (Jul 17, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> What do you call Israel's attacking of civilian installations in Lebanon (Airports, powerplants, bridges, etc.)?  Remember now, this is the chain of events that just occured: Israel kidnaps a family of Palestinian civilians, Hamas kidnaps an Israeli soldier, Hezbollah kidnaps two Israeli soldiers, Israel reinvades the Gaza Strip and trashes the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon.  I dunno, seems like terrorism to me.
> 
> What was your definition again?
> 
> What about the other examples I provided?


They are disabling their infrastructure... Making it extremely difficult for hezbollah and other guerillas to move and/or strike. How is fighting guerillas and trying to protect your citizens considered terroristic? 

Hezbollah disguises themselves as civilians, that in itself shows they want Israel to mistakingly kill actual civilians just to make Hezbollah look better, thats fucking disgusting.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 17, 2006)

Decker said:
			
		

> I'm late to the thread. I read the Great Satan's asinine first post and skipped to the last. These mafia-style hits btn Palestine and Israel are like guerilla warfare. They are State-associated/sponsored hits designed to undermine the enemy. The binding tie is that the participants belong to one state or another. I don't know if "terrorism" is appropriate. The word in its largest sense can be defined as a tactic for intimidation. *All warfare is terrorism then.* The world Court does not define the word. War--terrorism...I think it's a distinction w/out merit and is of importance in discussions of the middle east as some rhetorical ploy that lends an air of superiority to one side of the argument.
> 
> Remember, the minutemen and founding fathers could be characterized as terrorists: guerrilla style warfare, night raids of british stronghholds etc.



The definition of terrorism has been muddied during the last 5 years or so.  Simply put, terrorism is when the attacking force targets the civilians, and not the military, of its enemies.

Guerrilla warfare does not equate to terrorism.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 17, 2006)

JordanMang said:
			
		

> Actually he was talking specificly to Tony Blair, and he was expressing his personal feelings.  It's called humanity.  I don't expect him to play the role of a speakerbox for the American people who is devoid of feeling.  I expect the President to be a human first, a man second, a protector third, and a speaker for 300 million people last.  I'm not sure to many people care that the president said shit.  He may have poor manners, but at least he's not gonna tell it how it is, and not bullshit you.



Actually, since part of the word bull - "shit" is the word he used, with the microphones still on, the cameras rolling and other people (like the press) in attendance, he is still representing the American people and on stage. These are leaders talking about a crisis in which civilians are making the ultimate sacrifice, and he is representing the viewpoint of our government to the world.


----------



## pumpthatiron (Jul 17, 2006)

DOMS you're an idiot did i ever tell you that?  

Israel fired missiles at a minibus that was trying to get away from the attacks, killing 12 civilians, oh wait, that must have been the hezbollah carrying bombs right!? 

why don't you go back to Israel and be a true terrorist, instead of advocating it on IM forums?


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 17, 2006)

largepkg said:
			
		

> Oh get off your fucking high horse! You act like the media does. They sensationalize this "shit" word like it means something.
> 
> *Yeah - I'm sure that word is used all the time as part of diplomatic training.*
> 
> ...



This wasn't some little personalized shindig, or having dinner in a private home. If it was, there wouldn't have been cameras or the press there to capture the moment, and there wouldn't be microphones in the faces of all the leaders. 
Just like you don't talk around people in a public setting or event the same way you talk in private with your buds. 

You might remember the campaign of 2000, when Republicans said electing Bush would bring respect and dignity back to the office of the Presidency. Instead, it looks like we got "shit."


----------



## pumpthatiron (Jul 17, 2006)

and who ever voted for bush needs to stop crying, you are part of everything bush does... why the hell would you vote for the biggest dumbass america has ever seen?  bush didn't get into office again by paying someone, you guys elected him...

good going...


----------



## Decker (Jul 17, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> The definition of terrorism has been muddied during the last 5 years or so. Simply put, terrorism is when the attacking force targets the civilians, and not the military, of its enemies.
> 
> Guerrilla warfare does not equate to terrorism.


You have admitted that the definition of terrorism is muddied. Guerilla tactics are not muddied--just look at the history of Israeli/Palestinian combat: no formal war tactics (no frontline, mob style hits from disparate cells of warriors fighting for a cause, no conventional battles); attacks designed to deflate the enemy--not necessarily wipe them out. That looks a lot like the modern definition of 'terrorism.' 

Is attacking civilians the _sine qua non _of terrorism? I don't know. I think both GT and Terrorism are both tactics that embrace one another. I think unconventional warfare is just that. I also think that each side is guilty of using GT and the conclusion of terrorism can be aptly applied.

Anyways, conventional warfare today is cold. Guerrilla wars are hot. The Russian front and others are anachronisms.  Middle east guerrilla wars: Iran, Israel/Palestine are hot.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 17, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> DOMS you're an idiot did i ever tell you that?


Yes, you've said something along those lines, but look who's saying it. 



			
				pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> Israel fired missiles at a minibus that was trying to get away from the attacks, killing 12 civilians, oh wait, that must have been the hezbollah carrying bombs right!?
> 
> why don't you go back to Israel and be a true terrorist, instead of advocating it on IM forums?


So, you've got all the facts on this, eh?  Riiiight...  And the fact that the source is Al Jazeera has no bearing...

Honestly, I really don't care about them.  The Arabs in that region have been attacking, or harboring the attackers, of Israel, and now the Israelis have had enough and are hitting back.  Of course some innocents are going to die, it's called "war", not "happy fun time."


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 17, 2006)

And the scenario, if it is a "happy" ending, will be two or three soldiers returned to Israel for a hero's welcoming parade. . . and not one word about the innocent civilians who died in the campaign to free them.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 17, 2006)

Decker said:
			
		

> *You have admitted that the definition of terrorism is muddied.* Guerilla tactics are not muddied--just look at the history of Israeli/Palestinian combat: no formal war tactics (no frontline, mob style hits from disparate cells of warriors fighting for a cause, no conventional battles); attacks designed to deflate the enemy--not necessarily wipe them out. That looks a lot like the modern definition of 'terrorism.'
> 
> Is attacking civilians the _sine qua non _of terrorism? I don't know. I think both GT and Terrorism are both tactics that embrace one another. I think unconventional warfare is just that. I also think that each side is guilty of using GT and the conclusion of terrorism can be aptly applied.
> 
> Anyways, conventional warfare today is cold. Guerrilla wars are hot. The Russian front and others are anachronisms.  Middle east guerrilla wars: Iran, Israel/Palestine are hot.



Yes, but I gave you a definition.  The big difference in this conflict is that the Arabs are targeting civilians the majority of the time, whereas the Jews target the militants.  The problem is that the militants like to hide among the civilians.


----------



## GFR (Jul 17, 2006)




----------



## CowPimp (Jul 17, 2006)

Okay, disabling their infrastructure, fine.  You're right, it makes sense tacticaly.  However, the civilian casualties that go along with that are massive, not to mention the injuries and people rendered homeless, without power, and trapped as a result.  These are war crimes, plain and simple.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 17, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Okay, disabling their infrastructure, fine.  You're right, it makes sense tacticaly.  However, the civilian casualties that go along with that are massive, not to mention the injuries and people rendered homeless, without power, and trapped as a result.  *These are war crimes, plain and simple.*



  That's part of war.  You need to read up on what truly constitutes a war crime.


----------



## pumpthatiron (Jul 17, 2006)

well then suicide bombings and 911 was also part of war...


----------



## DOMS (Jul 17, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> well then suicide bombings and 911 was also part of war...



And you're an asshat...


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 17, 2006)

And another part of war is how our government will be charging civilians for their evacuation from Beirut. . .

Frontpage Headline
Lebanon Situation Update - July 15, 2006
July 15, 2006 
This information is current as of today, Sat Jul 15 12:20:12 2006.

_A message to the American citizens in Lebanon:

The Department of State continues to work with the Department of Defense on a plan to help American citizens depart Lebanon. As of the morning of July 15, we are looking at how we might transport Americans to Cyprus. Once in Cyprus, Americans can then board commercial aircraft for onward travel. Commercial airlines provide the safest and most efficient repatriation options to final destinations._

*The Department of State reminds American citizens that the U.S. government does not provide no-cost transportation but does have the authority to provide repatriation loans to those in financial need. For the portion of your trip directly handled by the U.S. Government we will ask you to sign a promissory note and we will bill you at a later date. In a subsequent message, when we have specific details about the transporation arrangments, we will inform you about the costs you will incur.* 

_We will also work with commercial aircraft to ensure that they have adequate flights to help you depart Cyprus and connect to your final destination.

The Department of State continues to work around the clock and will continue to send updates as appropriate._

http://beirut.usembassy.gov/lebanon/Lebanon_Situation_Update.html


Our tax dollars at work . . .


----------



## Witmaster (Jul 17, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> And you're an asshat...


Best post in thread


----------



## lnvanry (Jul 17, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> And another part of war is how our government will be charging civilians for their evacuation from Beirut. . .
> 
> Frontpage Headline
> Lebanon Situation Update - July 15, 2006
> ...



thats life....would you like to pay for them.  If the gov't doesn't charge them you will through your taxes.

Do you think its cheap to relocate over 20,000 people?  These people knew of the possible foreseeable risks when they travel/study/work in the middle east.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 17, 2006)

lnvanry said:
			
		

> thats life....would you like to pay for them.  If the gov't doesn't charge them you will through your taxes.
> 
> Do you think its cheap to relocate over 20,000 people?  These people knew of the possible foreseeable risks when they travel/study/work in the middle east.




Most American citizens pay taxes to maintain a military to provide for the common defense. Our tradition is to rescue American citizens anywhere they are in danger. . .and there are risks just staying at home - just look at the Gulf Coast. The American Embassy, for example, is considered American territory - when we evacuate those people, the taxpayers foot the bill. 

Would I prefer paying for them? They are American citizens. I'd prefer paying to save their lives than I do doling out $400 billion for Iraq. After all, we were giving Iraqi citizens cash to replace lost goats during the war. . .and then compensation for some citizens who were killed. 

I wonder how much the bills will be for each person? 

Saudi Arabia is flying its own nationals home without charge.


----------



## lnvanry (Jul 17, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Okay, disabling their infrastructure, fine.  You're right, it makes sense tacticaly.  However, the civilian casualties that go along with that are massive, not to mention the injuries and people rendered homeless, without power, and trapped as a result.  These are war crimes, plain and simple.



Hezbullah is a civilian force....what do think the casualities would be after they attack?...maybe civilian.  Every Hezbullah death is counted as a civilian death...even the militants.  They are NOT registered militants.

Are you familiar with what Hezbullah actually is?  Its not another Al Quaeda...although they have similar tactics and financial backers.  Hezbullah is like Hamas....a civilian POLITICAL PARTY.  WHen the leadership of the this elected political party lives with their prospective famliies....their famalies die with them.  ALong with their neighbors.

Its a war....gross and brutal.  War crimes are reserved for genocide and brutal torture IMHO.  

I hope we keep our boots off the ground in this situation and SELL Israel equip and defense goods....I hope we DO NOT give them away.  We have given them enough already.  Israel should just invade Lebanon and remove Hezbullah with the cooperation of the Lebanese gov't that isn't affiliated with Hez...Deal with Hamas later.  They are marginal in comparison to Hez.


----------



## lnvanry (Jul 17, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> Most American citizens pay taxes to maintain a military to provide for the common defense. Our tradition is to rescue American citizens anywhere they are in danger. . .and there are risks just staying at home - just look at the Gulf Coast. The American Embassy, for example, is considered American territory - when we evacuate those people, the taxpayers foot the bill.
> 
> Would I prefer paying for them? They are American citizens. I'd prefer paying to save their lives than I do doling out $400 billion for Iraq. After all, we were giving Iraqi citizens cash to replace lost goats during the war. . .and then compensation for some citizens who were killed.
> 
> ...



Do the Suadis have over 20,000 people there?

Don't forget Saudia Arabia is practically next door....We are literately around the world....Then after we lease ships and/or aircrafts to pick up this massive amount of people we then need to get a country to host them.

Its not an easy process this far away.

I do understand you wanting your tax money to work here and not in Iraq though...I am getting a little impatient there as well, and you know what my stance has been there.

All in all....those people took a risk going there and thay now have to deal with it...if there wasn't such a massive amount, it might be different.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 17, 2006)

Again, I think they've gone overboard, whether you feel this constitutes a war crime or not.  This is way beyond "defending themselves" as the G8 summit has declared they have the right to do.

I fucking hate this bullshit.  Both of these organizations are a bunch of dumbshits.  They aren't helping anything.  The way they would make progress on either side is to do exactly the opposite of what they are doing.  I hate humans; so very stupid.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 17, 2006)

From what I can tell, Lebanon was a peaceful country, even if the Western-supported government was a young one. But reports prior to this fighting showed the country reconstructed and Beirut was the international city it was already well-known for. . .which includes, I believe, a branch of the American University. It's safe to say that some of our citizens were there in support of business - several thousand were college students studying at the university. While I haven't checked, I don't know that there were any official travel adviseries for visiting Lebanon, especially since Syrian troops have been withdrawn and a pro-Western government elected. 

The Swiss, Italians, French and Germans who are able to get to Damascus can get flights from there. Of course, that is a little more difficult for Americans, since we have such poor relations with Syria. I think it's worth looking at - which countries charge people for evacuations and which ones don't. . .I'm sure we don't slap a bill on Pakistan for helping in Kashmir, or on Sri Lanka after the tsunami, even though we used a lot of U.S. military personnel to bring in supplies and airlift injured people out - and they aren't Americans. Gee - I hope we didn't bill the people of the Gulf Coast either. . .


----------



## DOMS (Jul 17, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> From what I can tell, Lebanon was a peaceful country, even if the Western-supported government was a young one. But reports prior to this fighting showed the country reconstructed and Beirut was the international city it was already well-known for. . .which includes, I believe, a branch of the American University. It's safe to say that some of our citizens were there in support of business - several thousand were college students studying at the university. While I haven't checked, I don't know that there were any official travel adviseries for visiting Lebanon, especially since Syrian troops have been withdrawn and a pro-Western government elected.
> 
> The Swiss, Italians, French and Germans who are able to get to Damascus can get flights from there. Of course, that is a little more difficult for Americans, since we have such poor relations with Syria. I think it's worth looking at - which countries charge people for evacuations and which ones don't. . .I'm sure we don't slap a bill on Pakistan for helping in Kashmir, or on Sri Lanka after the tsunami, even though we used a lot of U.S. military personnel to bring in supplies and airlift injured people out - and they aren't Americans. Gee - *I hope we didn't bill the people of the Gulf Coast either*. . .



If you mean the people in New Orleans, I don't think the US government takes food stamps.


----------



## pumpthatiron (Jul 17, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> If you mean the people in New Orleans, I don't think the US government takes food stamps.



You're one racist bastard, do you believe in the "supreme race" like hitler, but your supreme race are the Zionists instead of blue eyed white people?


----------



## DOMS (Jul 17, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> You're one racist bastard, do you believe in the "supreme race" like hitler, but your supreme race are the Zionists instead of blue eyed white people?


When it comes to people, I don't believe in shit.  I do, however, believe in individuals.

No shit, I used to hate blacks, but I realized that's stupid.  I've let that shit go.  The same for Mexicans. The only people that I can't let my hate go are for Muslims.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 17, 2006)

Oh, and as for my crack about NO, it's just that, a joke.  No one is above being made fun of.


----------



## god hand (Jul 17, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> If you mean the people in New Orleans, I don't think the US government takes food stamps.


That's more than racist, that's just fuckin wrong.


----------



## GFR (Jul 17, 2006)

god hand said:
			
		

> That's more than racist, that's just fuckin wrong.


----------



## MyK (Jul 18, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

>


----------



## pumpthatiron (Jul 18, 2006)

DOMS why are you still in America?  Why don't you go to Israel and support them physically with the Genocide of the Muslims?


----------



## DOMS (Jul 18, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> DOMS why are you still in America?  Why don't you go to Israel and support them physically with the Genocide of the Muslims?



There are Muslims here too.


----------



## Witmaster (Jul 18, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> DOMS why are you still in America? Why don't you go to Israel and support them physically with the Genocide of the Muslims?


Because someone needs to stay here and oppose the muslims from commiting genocide on us 

That, and if it wasn't for balanced opposition we'd have candy-assed islamic sympothizers overrunning every corner of this country!!


----------



## god hand (Jul 18, 2006)

MyK said:
			
		

>


OUCH!


----------



## tidalwaverus (Jul 18, 2006)

You guys are so funny. If the bible is true, then all the prophecies will come true also. Like Israel and it's future. Law of probibility it's either GOD or some luck HUH?
Isaiah: He will shake his fist at the mount of the dauther of Zion, The hill of Jerusalem.
The Lord of Hosts,Will lop off the brough with terror; Those of high stature will be hewn down. and the haughty will be humbled. He will cut down the thickets of the forest with iron. 

AND LEBANON will fall by the Mighty One.


----------



## MyK (Jul 18, 2006)

tidalwaverus said:
			
		

> You guys are so funny. If the bible is true, then all the prophecies will come true also. Like Israel and it's future. Law of probibility it's either GOD or some luck HUH?
> Isaiah: He will shake his fist at the mount of the dauther of Zion, The hill of Jerusalem.
> The Lord of Hosts,Will lop off the brough with terror; Those of high stature will be hewn down. and the haughty will be humbled. He will cut down the thickets of the forest with iron.
> 
> AND LEBANON will fall by the Mighty One.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 19, 2006)

Meanwhile, the United States seems to be slower than most other Western nations in organizing evacuations of our citizens from Lebanon. Yesterday, Marine helicopters managed to ferry 120 Americans to Cyprus, while Sweden picked up some 200 Americans along with some other European nationals. The difference, however, is that the European governments aren't making their citizens sign promissory notes to pay for their evacuation. 

Criticism is growing over what some reports claim is a poor response to American citizens by the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, although the Embassy maintains they keep posting information on their web site:

_The Esseilys are among tens of thousands of Westerners stranded in Lebanon Tuesday waiting for help to arrive. Monika Esseily said she's in contact with many other Americans in Lebanon and that all of them want to get out. 

"They're pulling out their hair, they're crying, they're saying 'What's going on?' They're being rejected from the American Embassy," she said. "The American Embassy is still saying, 'We will call you.' That's all that they will say."_

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/18/stranded.family/index.html

interesting video link at the news story:

U.S.military copters evacuate Americans -- for a fee (2:19)

After mounting criticism about the fees, the State Department apparently announced yesterday that they were not going to charge. . .but people continued to be asked to sign promissory notes before being allowed to board an evacuation ship. . .

_"I can't believe the Americans," Danni Atiyeh, a 39-year-old civil engineer from Kansas City, Mo., said as he stood with his pregnant wife and sons Ali, 10, and Adrian, 6, while waiting for buses that were taking them to the ship. "Everybody else has gone home ... We're still here."

The State Department said Tuesday it had dropped a plan to make Americans reimburse the government for the trip, but Atiyeh said he and others were asked to sign promissory notes to pay for the trip before they could leave.

It wasn't clear what time the ship would leave port. An estimated 8,000 of the 25,000 Americans in Lebanon want to leave the country._

[snip]

_On Tuesday, 320 Americans, mostly children, students and the elderly, left by military helicopter and a European ship.

U.S. Ambassador Jeffrey D. Feltman told The Associated Press more than 1,000 Americans would depart Wednesday and said the evacuation's slow start was intended to safeguard Americans._

[snip]

_Europeans have been evacuated from Lebanon in the thousands since their governments began moving them out in the *first days *of the hostilities. Nearly 1,000 were on a Swedish-chartered ship that left Beirut on Tuesday, and a British warship and Greek frigate transported nearly 600 of those countries' nationals away from Lebanon._

Why do Republicans hate Americans?


----------



## largepkg (Jul 19, 2006)

These individuals went into a land that has known terrorism, known Islamic fundamentalist, and a war happening right next door.  

You want me or our country to feel bad for them? You want our country to rush to their aide and save them from their own decisions? Screw'em! "Free will, ain't it a bitch!"


----------



## DOMS (Jul 19, 2006)

largepkg said:
			
		

> These individuals went into a land that has known terrorism, known Islamic fundamentalist, and a *war happening right next door*.
> 
> You want me or our country to feel bad for them? You want our country to rush to their aide and save them from their own decisions? Screw'em! "Free will, ain't it a bitch!"


Exactly!  That region is know for its instablity and wars.  They knew the risk they were taking.

Okay, I'm going over to the Congo (where they've been fighting for hundreds of years) so that I can get a free ride back on the taxpayers' bill.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 19, 2006)

largepkg said:
			
		

> These individuals went into a land that has known terrorism, known Islamic fundamentalist, and a war happening right next door.
> 
> *Hmm...were there State Department advisories telling Americans not to travel to Lebanon? *
> 
> You want me or our country to feel bad for them? You want our country to rush to their aide and save them from their own decisions? Screw'em! "Free will, ain't it a bitch!"



Uh. . .since we have some 130,000 troops sitting in Iraq, and one of the many invasion excuses was to "rush to the aide" of the oppressed Iraqi people....and thus save them from their own inability to form their own representative government, this is quite the interesting response. 
Screw the American citizens - we have Iraqis to save! 

Why do Republicans hate America?


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 19, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Exactly!  That region is know for its instablity and wars.  They knew the risk they were taking.
> 
> Okay, I'm going over to the Congo (where they've been fighting for hundreds of years) so that I can get a free ride back on the taxpayers' bill.



It doesn't surprise me that you'd think that way at all.  . .but let's see here - the Lebanese civil war has been over for quite awhile. . .the Syrians were sent home. . .they have a Western-backed government that is smiled upon by our Administration. State Department warnings? Travel advisories? Evacuations from the U.S. Embassy? 

The American Embassy exists, in part, as the contact and the closest home territory for American citizens when they are abroad. . .the handle issues over simple arrests, passport problems, and citizens put in danger by events out of their control . . .

Let's see. . .some disgruntled Iraqis scheme to get America involved in liberating them from Saddam Hussein's rule, just so they can engage in a religious civil war with rival groups - all the while knowing that the American government will send them military and money. It's not like the Iraqi people were incapable of rebellion. . .or of banding together to depose of a tyrannical dictatorship - there sure isn't some shortage of weapons over there. And it's located in that same region where all the trouble takes place - war with Iran, war with Kuwait, rocket threats to Israel. . .and yet we have all those troops stationed there to protect Americans? 

I wonder what would happen if the American people were asked what the purpose of having the U.S. military is. . .


----------



## largepkg (Jul 19, 2006)

I thought we were talking about the lack of common sense these Americans and other foreign nationals have for being in that part of the world to begin with.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 19, 2006)

Let's see. . .Iraq's population is estimated to be about 26,783,383. . .if we charged them...oh, just $200 a person....why, that would be $5,356,676,600....not too much of a return from that investment, but it would be a start. 

Hmm...well, it really is stupid for an American to travel outside this country, don't you think? No wonder con-servatives want huge walls built along the borders. . .

The smart evacuees got onto that Swedish ship. . .


----------



## DOMS (Jul 19, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> It doesn't surprise me that you'd think that way at all.  . .but let's see here - the Lebanese civil war has been over for quite awhile. . .the Syrians were sent home. . .they have a Western-backed government that is smiled upon by our Administration. State Department warnings? Travel advisories? Evacuations from the U.S. Embassy?
> 
> The American Embassy exists, in part, as the contact and the closest home territory for American citizens when they are abroad. . .the handle issues over simple arrests, passport problems, and citizens put in danger by events out of their control . . .
> 
> ...


The purposes of the US military (in my opinion) are:

1) Protect US territory and the people in it.
2) Kill the enemy.
3) Bolster local authorities (including emergency services).
4) Protect US citizens abroad when the unexpected happens on a large scale (such as a natural disaster or the destabilization of a previously stable region).
5) Aid our allies.
6) Protect US interests abroad.

These are what our military is for, which is why I detest the Iraq war.  The purpose of our military is not a peacekeeping force or for installing democracy.  We should have just gone over, killed the Iraqi army and Saddam, and then left.  

You try to paint a pretty picture of that region, but only be ignoring the fighting going on all around them.  As a matter of fact, the current conflict that puts them at risk wasn't unexpected and has been a risk for quite some time.

Oh, and I should point out that the government has waived any sort of charge to the civilians for their removal.


----------



## largepkg (Jul 19, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> Hmm...well, it really is stupid for an American to travel outside this country, don't you think?




This is the first intelligent thing you've said!  

Why would anyone want to leave this beautiful country?


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 19, 2006)

largepkg said:
			
		

> This is the first intelligent thing you've said!
> 
> Why would anyone want to leave this beautiful country?



Because there are lots of beautiful countries out there with their own unique pleasures to experience.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 19, 2006)

Oh, and regarding the evacuation of US citizens from Lebanon, I do feel like it's not the best idea to visit countries in the Middle East at this time.  However, it has been in turmoil for so long.  

I would love to ventue to the Middle East at some point to experience their culture, and I would like to think that the US military would help me out if a war escalated quickly in a matter of days so that I don't have to wait for the Middle East to settle down, because God only knows if and when that's going to happen.

Also, there are probably a significant number of Americans that are there on business related ventures.  A buddy of mine was called to Jordan for several months of the previous year for his job, and he worked in IT.


----------



## largepkg (Jul 19, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Because there are lots of beautiful countries out there with their own unique pleasures to experience.




Agreed CP, I was just taking a jab.

Also, Jordan is a very stable country, politicaly speaking.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 19, 2006)

largepkg said:
			
		

> Agreed CP, I was just taking a jab.
> 
> Also, Jordan is a very stable country, politicaly speaking.



I suppose, but my point still stands.  If you get called out there on business and this shit goes down, then I think you deserve assistance getting out.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 19, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> The purposes of the US military (in my opinion) are:
> 
> 1) Protect US territory and the people in it.
> 2) Kill the enemy.
> ...



Yes, I mentioned that earlier. . .except they are still asking people to sign promissory notes.


----------



## Pepper (Jul 19, 2006)

*Excellent Washington Post article:*

Take a look:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/18/AR2006071801379.html?nav=rss_opinion/columns



> There is crisis and there is opportunity. Amid the general wringing of hands over the seemingly endless and escalating Israel-Hezbollah fighting, everyone asks: Where will it end?
> The answer, blindingly clear, begins with understanding that this crisis represents a rare, perhaps irreproducible, opportunity.
> 
> Every important party in the region and in the world, except the radical Islamists in Tehran and their clients in Damascus, wants Hezbollah disarmed and removed from south Lebanon so that it is no longer able to destabilize the peace of both Lebanon and the broader Middle East.
> ...


----------



## DOMS (Jul 19, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> You mean the boogeyman.


No, I don't.  I mean those that the US government deems to be a threat.  When you're president, you can decide who is, and isn't, our enemies.




			
				kbm8795 said:
			
		

> Lebanon installed a pro-Western government with the blessing of our Great Decider.


What a load of crap.  "blessing"?  Is was the 1989 Arif (sp?) agreement (put forth by Arab countries) that helped to install the current Lebanese government.  The role that the US played was to make it official by sponsoring (along with the French) a resolutions to lift previous UN sanctions.  You try to make it sound like the US government put them in.  Nice try at spinning, "reporter."



			
				kbm8795 said:
			
		

> Yes, I mentioned that earlier. . .except they are still asking people to sign promissory notes.


If they gave them unconditional free passage, you'd just bitch that it wasn't first class.


----------



## ALBOB (Jul 19, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> The purposes of the US military (in my opinion) are:
> 
> 1) Protect US territory and the people in it.
> 2) Kill the enemy.
> ...



The Executive Branch dictates policy, the military enforces that policy.  That's the letter of the law put in layman's terms.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 19, 2006)

Pepper said:
			
		

> Fine. Everyone agrees it must be done. But who to do it? No one. The Lebanese are too weak. The Europeans don't invade anyone. After its bitter experience of 20 years ago, the United States has a Lebanon allergy. And Israel could not act out of the blue because it would immediately have been branded the aggressor and forced to retreat.
> Hence the golden, unprecedented opportunity. Hezbollah makes a fatal mistake. It crosses the U.N.-delineated international frontier to attack Israel, kill soldiers and take hostages. This aggression is so naked that even Russia joins in the Group of Eight summit communique blaming Hezbollah for the violence and calling for the restoration of Lebanese sovereignty in the south.


So incredibly well put!


----------



## DOMS (Jul 19, 2006)

ALBOB said:
			
		

> The Executive Branch dictates policy, the military enforces that policy.  That's the letter of the law put in layman's terms.



Agreed, but I was trying to list out actual actions.


----------



## fUnc17 (Jul 19, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> Uh. . .since we have some 130,000 troops sitting in Iraq, and one of the many invasion excuses was to "rush to the aide" of the oppressed Iraqi people....and thus save them from their own inability to form their own representative government, this is quite the interesting response.
> Screw the American citizens - we have Iraqis to save!
> 
> Why do Republicans hate America?



I would imagine because "saving the Iraqi's" makes the US money while saving its own citizens costs money.


----------



## GFR (Jul 19, 2006)

*Intermission














































*


----------



## Pepper (Jul 19, 2006)

The gimp is sleeping.


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 19, 2006)

Foreman, that's your best post ever, bar none.


----------



## GFR (Jul 19, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Foreman, that's your best post ever, bar none.



http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=62586

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=67723

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=67605

This one is in the stickys now
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=67027

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=66457

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=66149

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=65513

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=65512

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=64724

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=64311

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=63957 

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=63925

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=62917

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=62944

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=62911

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=62764

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=62677

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=62693

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=62692

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=62690

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=62620

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=62621

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=62455

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=62100

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=61168

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=60771

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=59946

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=58483

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=57343


----------



## MyK (Jul 19, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> *Intermission
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## DOMS (Jul 19, 2006)

MyK said:
			
		

>



I can see it.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 19, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> No, I don't.  I mean those that the US government deems to be a threat.  When you're president, you can decide who is, and isn't, our enemies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You really do enjoy projecting your own personality onto everyone else - makes it really kind of hard to appreciate "individuals" unless they are a reflection in the mirror. 

It is merely interesting that other nations appear to provide free safe passage while we bill our own citizens. Why do Republicans hate Americans?


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 19, 2006)

That word "dictates" always seems to slip into con-servative thoughts.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 19, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> We've already experienced your rather uneducated attempts at identifying "spin," havent' we? Nice try, "critical analyst."
> The United States recognized the government, just as it recognized Israel's declaration of independence in 1948.



The US has also recognized the French government, but we didn't put them in, now did we?  



			
				kbm8795 said:
			
		

> You really do enjoy projecting your own personality onto everyone else - makes it really kind of hard to appreciate "individuals" unless they are a reflection in the mirror.



Do you mean like how you like to believe everyone is gay?



			
				kbm8795 said:
			
		

> It is merely interesting that other nations appear to provide free safe passage while we bill our own citizens. Why do Republicans hate Americans?



Republicans don't hate Americans, they hate liberals.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 19, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> That word "dictates" always seems to slip into con-servative thoughts.



Heh, you said "dic."


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 19, 2006)

*"And Israel could not act out of the blue because it would immediately have been branded the aggressor and forced to retreat."*

And who would be "forcing" Israel to retreat?


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 19, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> The US has also recognized the French government, but we didn't put them in, now did we?
> 
> *I thought con-servatives were still crowing about how we saved France?*
> 
> ...



Ahh...I get it....so the Republican "spin" is that our citizens in Lebanon must be "liberals" so they must be automatically irresponsible and unworthy of free passage from a war zone.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 19, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> I thought con-servatives were still crowing about how we saved France?



Nice non-answer.  You tried to spin it and failed.



			
				kbm8795 said:
			
		

> Seems to be on your mind.



Well, you _are _a homosexual.


----------



## largepkg (Jul 19, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Well, you _are _a homosexual.




Now that was funny right there!


----------



## Witmaster (Jul 19, 2006)

largepkg said:
			
		

> Now that was funny right there!


I thought it was true?


----------



## CowPimp (Jul 19, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=63957



Hah, I never saw that one.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 19, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Nice non-answer.  You tried to spin it and failed.
> 
> *And what would you know about "spin?" It's been rather difficult enough for you to post beyond memorized cliches, and I noticed you didn't answer that question.*
> 
> Well, you _are _a homosexual.



Isn't everyone? 

Let's see - we've determined your loyalty to America is limited to the desires and needs of your own reflection in the mirror; that you determine "bias" as nothing more than anything written, broadcasted,or printed which doesn't rubber stamp your acquired point-of-view, (which is dependent on making yourself feel superior to others in some manner) and that your knowledge of spin is limited to. . .well. .. not much of anything except that it might be useful as a deflection. Your idea of patriotism is nothing more than kissing your own reflection in the mirror, though you quickly blame all others for any issue or problem in your country, even if you regularly neglect your own responsibility as an American citizen to moniter your own government in favor of just being told what to think and do.  You casually point out which people should be killed in the world, yet pretend to care about an embryo - mostly because the idea of controlling someone else's mind and body is how you "respect" individuals. Gee - projecting can be fun.  

And Republicans don't hate America - they just hate liberals, and liberals are any American citizen which requires any sort of assistance from the government they pay taxes to in any situation.  The same tired old deflection that has been used for years - and when we hand over the government to the whiners and the bleaters of con-servative patriotism, waving their flag made in China and their dedication to bombing everything that makes them momentarily frightened in the name of God, they handle that responsibility by. . .you guessed it. . .blaming the "liberals." 

Let's see - we have about 25,000 American citizens in Lebanon and at least 8,000 have expressed a desire to leave. Our ally's war campaign, using military equipment and hardware largely developed and made in the United States using contracts paid for by those same taxpayers, prevented them from leaving by conventional means. Our government, which can't develop an evacuation plan very easily because we have greatly reduced the number of allies in the region, is later in the game than our European allies (who have more options) and even our Saudi allies (who apparently didn't offer to ferry Americans to Riyadh.) Then we issue promissory notes to American citizens, announce that we won't be doing that after all, and yet the evacuees were still getting them.

Meanwhile, Turkey is threatening to invade Iraq, 1,000 people have died in the past week in Iraq because of the violence we are supposed to be preventing, and the con-servative government is more worried about the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegience. A failed Administration and a failed Congress which functions more like a middle school student council than the governing body of what con-servatives constantly claim is the greatest country in the world. The Great Decider is busy showing the world how much class and dignity he restored to the White House by talking with his mouth full of dinner roll, uttering a swear word with the cameras rolling and the microphone on at an official dinner, and walking up behind the German chancellor, startling her, and massaging her shoulders without her knowledge or permission. We all feel so much safer.


----------



## lnvanry (Jul 19, 2006)

at least their not going to be charged anymore KBM


----------



## brogers (Jul 19, 2006)

kbm is probably the most bitter person in America.  But if I was him, I'd be bitter as hell too.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 20, 2006)

brogers said:
			
		

> kbm is probably the most bitter person in America.  But if I was him, I'd be bitter as hell too.



But yer not, Blanche.


----------



## GFR (Jul 20, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> Isn't everyone?
> 
> Let's see - we've determined your loyalty to America is limited to the desires and needs of your own reflection in the mirror; that you determine "bias" as nothing more than anything written, broadcasted,or printed which doesn't rubber stamp your acquired point-of-view, (which is dependent on making yourself feel superior to others in some manner) and that your knowledge of spin is limited to. . .well. .. not much of anything except that it might be useful as a deflection. Your idea of patriotism is nothing more than kissing your own reflection in the mirror, though you quickly blame all others for any issue or problem in your country, even if you regularly neglect your own responsibility as an American citizen to moniter your own government in favor of just being told what to think and do.  You casually point out which people should be killed in the world, yet pretend to care about an embryo - mostly because the idea of controlling someone else's mind and body is how you "respect" individuals. Gee - projecting can be fun.
> 
> ...


Grerat post  the American government needs to be questioned at all times by it's citizens.....95% never question it.

Also the first paragraph  sums up DOMS ( cfs3) exactily.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 20, 2006)

brogers said:
			
		

> kbm is probably the most bitter person in America.  But if I was him, I'd be bitter as hell too.



If you were him, you'd be about 50 years old, floundering in you attempts at working out, believe that everyone (specially conservatives and straight people) were out to get you (there's a conspiracy everywhere), and be posting on online dating boards.

Yeah, you'd have to be pretty bitter.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 20, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> If you were him, you'd be about 50 years old, floundering in you attempts at working out, believe that everyone (specially conservatives and straight people) were out to get you (there's a conspiracy everywhere), and be posting on online dating boards.
> 
> Yeah, you'd have to be pretty bitter.


----------



## kbm8795 (Jul 20, 2006)

And now the Iraqi Prime Minister has a press conference in the Green Zone condemning Israel for its bombing in Lebanon and supporting Hezbollah. While I suppose its a sign that the Iraqi government isn't exactly a puppet, its also some explanation as to why 130,000 of our own troops couldn't exactly help evacuate American citizens from the war zone. But then, since we just found 38 more bodies in Baghdad and another three people were killed in a car bomb there, its really a toss-up over which conflict is wiping out the most lives of people every day. 

_BAGHDAD, Iraq, July 19 ??? Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki of Iraq on Wednesday forcefully denounced the Israeli attacks on Lebanon, marking a sharp break with President Bush???s position and highlighting the growing power of a Shiite Muslim identity across the Middle East.

While many Arab leaders have been hesitant to criticize Israel???s invasion of Lebanon, crowds like this one, in Yemen, have been more vocal.

???The Israeli attacks and airstrikes are completely destroying Lebanon???s infrastructure,??? Mr. Maliki said at an afternoon news conference inside the fortified Green Zone, which houses the American Embassy and the seat of the Iraqi government. ???I condemn these aggressions and call on the Arab League foreign ministers??? meeting in Cairo to take quick action to stop these aggressions. We call on the world to take quick stands to stop the Israeli aggression.???

The American Embassy did not provide an immediate response.

The comments by Mr. Maliki, a Shiite Arab whose party has close ties to Iran, were noticeably stronger than those made by Sunni Arab governments in recent days. Those governments have refused to take an unequivocal stand on Lebanon, reflecting their concern about the growing influence of Iran, which has a Shiite majority and has been accused by Israel of providing weapons to Hezbollah, the Lebanese Shiite militant group. _

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/20/w...&en=10943abb7484e7d0&ei=5094&partner=homepage


And here at home, Republicans worried about losing their Congressional seats are suddenly claiming that Iraq is Bush's fault, not theirs. . .but are telling the folks at home that gosh, now we are stuck there. . .

_The shift is subtle, but Republican lawmakers acknowledge that it is no longer tenable to say the news media are ignoring the good news in Iraq and painting an unfair picture of the war. In the first half of this year, 4,338 Iraqi civilians died violent deaths, according to a new report by the U.N. Assistance Mission for Iraq. Last month alone, 3,149 civilians were killed -- an average of more than 100 a day.

*"It's like after Katrina, when the secretary of homeland security was saying all those people weren't really stranded when we were all watching it on TV," said Rep. Patrick T. McHenry (R-N.C.). "I still hear about that. We can't look like we won't face reality."*_

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/19/AR2006071901787.html

I got news for ya, Pat. . .ya can't face reality. The Party is too busy trying to protect the flag-made-in-China and the "under God" in the Pledge.


----------



## tidalwaverus (Jul 20, 2006)

You will see this war get worse real quick.

Hamas and Iran wants this to turn into all out war
 Arabs VS Jews they want Israel destroyed
 Iran's pulling the trigger 
The US wants Irans nukes wiped out and they are going to use Israel to do it. Iran is so stupid they will give Israel a reason to bomb them and guess what they will! Israel will defend itself. And we will be right in the middle of all this shit. But thats nothing, when the Dome of Rock is destroyed then all hell is going to break loose. 

One other thing How many of you think Israel has nukes? and is willing to use them?


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jul 20, 2006)

ForemanRules said:
			
		

> Grerat post  the American government needs to be questioned at all times by it's citizens.....95% never question it.



Post of the year, by Foreman.

No matter who is in power, the citizens need to always question their decisions. 

Where do _you,_ the average citizen, fit, in this nation state of the U.S.

You pay taxes, have a right to work and own property.  And other privaleges because of your (and our) U.S. citizenship.

Does this mean we should blindly accept and _support_ all of the government's policies?  Heck no.

The U.S. government is run by a few, for the few.

Same as today, as in the Roman Empire and long before.


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jul 20, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> And now the Iraqi Prime Minister has a press conference in the Green Zone condemning Israel for its bombing in Lebanon and supporting Hezbollah. While I suppose its a sign that the Iraqi government isn't exactly a puppet, its also some explanation as to why 130,000 of our own troops couldn't exactly help evacuate American citizens from the war zone.



The 130,000 U.S. troops are bogged down in Iraq - and Ahmadinajad knows this.  So does Kim Jong Il.  The U.S. has lost its military, and diplomatic teeth.  That's why the recent change in the Bush administrations rhetoric and actions. 

 Again:


> BAGHDAD, Iraq, July 19 ??? Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki of Iraq on Wednesday forcefully denounced the Israeli attacks on Lebanon, marking a sharp break with President Bush???s position and highlighting the growing power of a Shiite Muslim identity across the Middle East.



The Al-Maliki Iraqi government is _Shiite_.  Hezbolloah is _Shitte_


Question of the day:  What do you think the future Iraqi government will say and _do_ in the region?  They won't be allies of the U.S. that is for sure.  They'll let the U.S. rebuild the infrastructure of Iraq because the Iraqis _need_ it rebuilt because the Americans destroyed the infrastructure of Iraq.  After that, the future Iraqi government - whether Shis or Sunni - will tell the Americans to get lost, and became hater of the U.S.


If this wasn't so foolish it would be funny.


----------



## fUnc17 (Jul 20, 2006)

tidalwaverus said:
			
		

> You will see this war get worse real quick.
> 
> Hamas and Iran wants this to turn into all out war
> Arabs VS Jews they want Israel destroyed
> ...



Not neccesarily.. I agree people in the middle east on both sides want war, they need to pick the right time and the right reason. Israel is raping the shit out of lebanon and will continue to do so. Iran will do nothing because the US is right next door, the smart country here is Israel.. they put their biggest, strongest allie in between their strongest and biggest enemy. If Iran is going to do anything better sooner than later for them.

And as far as nukes, no one is nuking anything in the middle east, way too much money to be made. Israel has them, yes but has no reason to use them. If they get backed into a corner somehow by a shitload of countries, then yes I could see them using it for survival purposes but I highly doubt it reaches that point


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## god hand (Jul 20, 2006)

kbm8795 said:
			
		

> Isn't everyone?
> 
> Let's see - we've determined your loyalty to America is limited to the desires and needs of your own reflection in the mirror; that you determine "bias" as nothing more than anything written, broadcasted,or printed which doesn't rubber stamp your acquired point-of-view, (which is dependent on making yourself feel superior to others in some manner) and that your knowledge of spin is limited to. . .well. .. not much of anything except that it might be useful as a deflection. Your idea of patriotism is nothing more than kissing your own reflection in the mirror, though you quickly blame all others for any issue or problem in your country, even if you regularly neglect your own responsibility as an American citizen to moniter your own government in favor of just being told what to think and do.  You casually point out which people should be killed in the world, yet pretend to care about an embryo - mostly because the idea of controlling someone else's mind and body is how you "respect" individuals. Gee - projecting can be fun.


This paragraph=95% of whites


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## lnvanry (Jul 20, 2006)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> The 130,000 U.S. troops are bogged down in Iraq - and Ahmadinajad knows this.  So does Kim Jong Il.  The U.S. has lost its military, and diplomatic teeth.  That's why the recent change in the Bush administrations rhetoric and actions.



We have a total of 1.5million soldiers....we are not totally bogged down.  We are strained though.  There is a difference.  We have NOT lost our teeth

 Again:




			
				Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> The Al-Maliki Iraqi government is _Shiite_.  Hezbolloah is _Shitte_
> 
> 
> Question of the day:  What do you think the future Iraqi government will say and _do_ in the region?  They won't be allies of the U.S. that is for sure.  They'll let the U.S. rebuild the infrastructure of Iraq because the Iraqis _need_ it rebuilt because the Americans destroyed the infrastructure of Iraq.  After that, the future Iraqi government - whether Shis or Sunni - will tell the Americans to get lost, and became hater of the U.S.
> ...



We will have at least 1 PERMENANT established military base in Iraq...we will never leave....probably 5-10 bases in the mideast.


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## Big Smoothy (Jul 21, 2006)

^ Ivanry, I hear your points on the "strained," but I believe the U.S. is "bogged down."  Meaning, the military is overstretched, and the money is not their to pay for any other military actions.  And: Where could the U.S. use the military?  Not in Iran or North Korea.  Military action would be a disasters.  You cannot use the military to solve these political, and ideological solutions.  

Here's an article: 



> No, this is not 'our war'
> 
> Posted: July 20, 2006
> 8:36 p.m. Eastern
> ...



Entire: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51164


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## kbm8795 (Jul 21, 2006)

Meanwhile, CNN reports that one American family doled out $3,200 for taxis to get across Lebanon. . .after going to the U.S. Embassy, registering and told it would be another three or four days. . .

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/20/cnna.sheikali/index.html


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## tidalwaverus (Jul 21, 2006)

Ra'anan Gissin, prime minister Ariel Sharon's recently sidelined, gravel-voiced spokesman, may be watching the current crisis from his living room, but he had advice Thursday for how Israel should be waging the public relations campaign: "Emphasize Iran, Iran and Iran." 

Gissin, who formally left his job as the prime minister's foreign media spokesman on July 15, said that over the past three years, Israel has gotten the message across that the Iranian nuclear threat was not only an Israeli problem, but something that should concern the whole world. 

In the same vein, he said Israel needed to "engage in a similar process in reshaping the world's understanding" that Iran's terrorist threat was no less critical than the nuclear one, and that it too was not just directed against Israel. 

"Let us not forget that Hizbullah's first attack was in 1983, against the US Marine barracks that killed 241 people," he said. "Just as we introduced the idea that the Iranian nuclear threat was not just an Israeli problem, so is the Hizbullah-Iranian terrorist axis not just an Israeli problem." 

Gissin, who as Sharon's foreign media adviser since 2001 emerged as one of Israel's leading spokesmen, was slowly eased out of his job after Prime Minister Ehud Olmert took over. Nevertheless, he has refrained from slinging mud at the Prime Minister's Office and declined to say whether he thought the current public relations effort was being run effectively. 

According to Gissin, Israel needs to make it clear to the world that Hizbullah is an organ of the Iranian revolution. It was vital for Israel to "fill in its bank of international legitimacy" now, he said, because this legitimacy for the current IDF action was running out. 

"This legitimacy will shrink as a result of the pictures coming out of Lebanon as to what we did there to reduce Hizbullah to a manageable position and destroy its military infrastructure," he said. "We also regrettably had to destroy some infrastructure in Lebanon, and the pictures of that destruction are creating a situation where at the end of the operation, we are going to stand with coffers empty of credit." 

As a result, he said, even before finishing the military operation, Israel needed to hammer home "the Iranian-Hizbullah-Syrian axis of terror" message. Israel needed to stress that this was the most formidable threat facing not just Israel, but the international community, he said. By doing so, he said Israel would create legitimacy for future action against Hizbullah, or even against Iran. 

"We have to make certain that the pictures that come out of Lebanon show not only destruction, but also the extent of the network Hizbullah spread out throughout the country, where a terrorist organization simply took hostage a country with three million people," he said. 

Gissin warned that the grace period Israel has been given by the international media was "quickly running out" and "we are seeing more and more pictures of the destruction of Lebanon, and less and less of the causes, which are the rocket attacks in Israel." 

Gissin said Israel needed to go on a public-diplomacy counteroffensive to show that a weakened Hizbullah was not only good for Israel and Lebanon, but for the entire world. 

Gissin, who served in the IDF Spokesman's Office during the Lebanon War, said that Israel "does not have a public relations problem, it has a strategic problem of justifying our existence." 

He said the current conflict can be used to show that Israel was merely struggling for survival. "The basic theme now of Israel's public diplomacy should be simply 'back to basics'" he said. "We have the opportunity to show now that our struggle is not territorial, it is over our mere existence."


----------



## pumpthatiron (Jul 22, 2006)

http://fromisraeltolebanon.info/

holocaust was worse? bullshit... hitler left some unfinished business...


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## Witmaster (Jul 22, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> http://fromisraeltolebanon.info/
> 
> holocaust was worse? bullshit... *hitler left some unfinished business*...


That's just about as fucked in the head as anything I've ever read.


----------



## pumpthatiron (Jul 22, 2006)

http://fromisraeltolebanon.info/


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## DOMS (Jul 22, 2006)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> That's just about as fucked in the head as anything I've ever read.


Here's something that typifies the fucked up nature of pumpthatiron.

I said that I can't stand Muslims (they're a fucked up people), to which this asshat responded:

"DOMs, you generalize all Muslims, and your hate for "Muslims" just goes to show your ignorance. Well I'm not going to waste my time on a lost cause, and you definitely aren't worth my time. Hopefully you will realize there is something inside of your head, and make use of it before spreading hate and violence..." - pumpthatiron

Not only is he fucked up in the general sense, but he's also quite the hypocrite.  He's your standard "Let's love everyone, but the people I hate" type.


----------



## pumpthatiron (Jul 22, 2006)

yeah, exactly, all you guys can do is flame me, but you will NEVER find an excuse for the horrific acts Israel is doing right now... http://fromisraeltolebanon.info/ 

Try to justify that....


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## Witmaster (Jul 23, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> ...hitler left some unfinished business.


 


			
				pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> yeah, exactly, all you guys can do is flame me, but you will NEVER find an excuse for the horrific acts Israel is doing right now... http://fromisraeltolebanon.info/
> 
> Try to justify that....


Flame you? No. I just think your logic (or lack thereof) is extremely fucked up.

You're trying to make the claim that Hitler's erradication of 8+ million Jews (not to mention the untold millions of other ethnic and political groups he murdered) was somehow justified because to the horrors of war.  Specifically, Israel's offensive attackes on Palistine.

I could just as easily counter with graphic pictures of twisted and mangled bodies that were the result of Palistine's suicide bomber attacks that have plagued that region for decades.  Maybe a few sordid pics of a school bus that could only be described as a "human blender" after a bombers vest went off and schredded the innocent schoolchildren who were on thier way to school. 

I don't think anyone would argue that casualties of war (especially children) are a horrific and tragic consequence but to claim Hitler was justified in his maniacal scheme is simply too fucked up to appropriately describe in words.


----------



## pumpthatiron (Jul 23, 2006)

calm down, i was emotional after seeing these pictures... hitler was a moron.  Killing innocent civilians is NEVER ok, doesn't matter if they are Jews or Muslims...


----------



## DOMS (Jul 23, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> yeah, exactly, all you guys can do is flame me, but you will NEVER find an excuse for the horrific acts Israel is doing right now... http://fromisraeltolebanon.info/
> 
> Try to justify that....



You get offended that I hate Muslims as a whole, then it comes out that you hate Israelis as a whole.  You're a hypocrite, plain and simple.  As for me,  I admit that I hate Muslims, I don't try to play the high moral card that you do.  

As for justification of the Israeli's attacks: They've been attacked by their neighbors on and off for decades.  Even those neighbors that don't directly attack them have harbored those that do.  This attack is way over do.  The Israelis need to take the kid gloves off and put the Muslims in their place.


----------



## pumpthatiron (Jul 23, 2006)

i hate zionists, not jews... theres a difference, zionists are the biggest sons of bitches in the world...


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## Witmaster (Jul 23, 2006)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> i hate zionists, not jews... theres a difference, zionists are the biggest sons of bitches in the world...


So.... is it yout position that all Israelis are "zionists"?


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jul 23, 2006)

I Agree with Doms, thought.

I am prejudiced against muslims.  After reading the Quran and its interpretations, speaking with Muslims about their religion, and learning of all of the intolerance and hate in the this farce of a religion.

I look at Israel with much negativity.  An apartheid state with Bantustan policies similar to that of South Africa.


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## TheGreatSatan (Jul 23, 2006)

We should just nuke the whole damn Mideast and turn it into a sheet of glass, then put some walmarts there.  At least, it'll finally be useful.


----------



## lnvanry (Jul 23, 2006)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> I Agree with Doms, thought.
> 
> I am prejudiced against muslims.  After reading the Quran and its interpretations, speaking with Muslims about their religion, and learning of all of the intolerance and hate in the this farce of a religion.
> 
> I look at Israel with much negativity.  An apartheid state with Bantustan policies similar to that of South Africa.



religion can be poison sometimes.


----------



## Big Smoothy (Jul 24, 2006)

TheGreatSatan said:
			
		

> We should just nuke the whole damn Mideast and turn it into a sheet of glass, then put some walmarts there.  At least, it'll finally be useful.



Can't do that.  Then the Americans can't get the oil they are dependent on.


----------



## Pepper (Jul 24, 2006)

Mr_Snafu said:
			
		

> Can't do that. Then the Americans can't get the oil they are dependent on.


 
We can drill through glass.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 24, 2006)




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## tidalwaverus (Jul 25, 2006)

TheGreatSatan said:
			
		

> We should just nuke the whole damn Mideast and turn it into a sheet of glass, then put some walmarts there.  At least, it'll finally be useful.


Bush didn't do it after 9-11 when he had the chance.

 What excuse would we have now?
Hezbolla attacks in the USA yes.

Will we do it ? nuke Iran?


----------



## GFR (Jul 25, 2006)

Let them all kill eachother.


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## goob (Jul 25, 2006)

but let some of the hardest and most fucked up hezzers have a bit of "R & R" with that evil bitch condaleeza rice seeing that shes over there anyway.


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## Witmaster (Jul 25, 2006)

goob said:
			
		

> but let some of the hardest and most fucked up hezzers have a bit of "R & R" with that evil bitch condaleeza rice seeing that shes over there anyway.


Sexist racist hater


----------



## lnvanry (Jul 25, 2006)

racist



			
				goob said:
			
		

> but let some of the hardest and most fucked up hezzers have a bit of "R & R" with that evil bitch condaleeza rice seeing that shes over there anyway.


----------



## maniclion (Jul 25, 2006)

TheGreatSatan said:
			
		

> We should just nuke the whole damn Mideast and turn it into a sheet of glass, then put some walmarts there.  At least, it'll finally be useful.


*BETTER IDEA:*


> Industrially, *SAND* is converted to pure silicon by heating it with coke (the form of coal, not the drink) in a furnace. But there's an even easier, if less cost-effective, method that I learned from Jason Stainer, a science teacher in England. _*All you have to do is heat a mixture of common silica sand and magnesium powder in a test tube. The magnesium steals the oxygen atoms from the silica, leaving elemental silicon.*_
> No reaction is perfect, and in this case you're left with a mixture of magnesium, magnesium oxide, magnesium silicide and silicon in the bottom of the test tube. Fortunately, the best way to purify it is also the most entertaining. I told my eight-year-old Harry Potter fan that I had prepared a fire potion. First pour one cup of what is sold in any hardware store as muriatic acid (37% HCl) into five cups of water. (Not the other way around. The old chemist's saying "Do as you oughta, add acid to watta" is there to protect you from steam explosions that can occur if water is poured into acid instead of acid into water.) Then dump in the contents of the test tube, and you'll get a wonderful frothing mass of flaming bubbles and a lovely mushroom cloud of smoke.   Chemically speaking, several things happen when the powder hits the acid. Any leftover magnesium powder reacts with the acid to produce hydrogen gas. The magnesium silicide reacts with the acid to produce silane gas, which spontaneously combusts on contact with air, giving off little pops that ignite the nearby swirls of hydrogen gas.  If there is still some magnesium powder floating in the air, it catches fire too, creating a bright flash and a puff of white smoke. You get three forms of fire in one, and *the powder falling to the bottom of the bowl is purified elemental silicon.* "



If we just bomb a section with some magnesium bombs and then scoop up the silicon and purify it we'd have a lot of solar electric material, then bomb another side and turn it to glass and take that we'd have a complete solar electric manufacturing facility, we could puit the survivors to work piecing the things together, then we'd just have to go through the rubble and gather up all of the left over copper piping and wiring and bam we could power the world.


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## DOMS (Jul 25, 2006)

maniclion said:
			
		

> *BETTER IDEA:*
> 
> 
> If we just bomb a section with some magnesium bombs and then scoop up the silicon and purify it we'd have a lot of solar electric material, then bomb another side and turn it to glass and take that we'd have a complete solar electric manufacturing facility, we could puit the survivors to work piecing the things together, then we'd just have to go through the rubble and gather up all of the left over copper piping and wiring and bam we could power the world.



Throw in a neutron bomb and I think you have a good business plan.


----------



## BigDyl (Jul 25, 2006)

DOMS said:
			
		

> Throw in a neutron bomb and I think you have a good business plan.





.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 25, 2006)

BigDyl said:
			
		

>



I said "neutron bomb", dumb ass.


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## lnvanry (Jul 25, 2006)

this thread going to be deleted or locked after that post


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## Jodi (Jul 25, 2006)

Enough of that shit!

Thread Closed.


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