# Rationale for low-fat, high-carb on refeeds



## Phineas (Jun 18, 2010)

Just wondering why everyone suggests keeping fat minimal and carbs very high on a refeed? If the idea is to prevent leptin from dropping then wouldn't providing a calorie surplus be enough? Why not moderate fat (i.e 100-120) and high-carbs?

To eat over my maintenance calories with minimal fat would mean eating over 500g carbs. I can't see this happening in a day, lol. 

Why can't I keep my fat at 130g? Why does this matter? Calories are calories.


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## DaMayor (Jun 18, 2010)

Phineas said:


> Just wondering why everyone suggests keeping fat minimal and carbs very high on a refeed? If the idea is to prevent leptin from dropping then wouldn't providing a calorie surplus be enough? Why not moderate fat (i.e 100-120) and high-carbs?
> 
> To eat over my maintenance calories with minimal fat would mean eating over 500g carbs. I can't see this happening in a day, lol.
> 
> Why can't I keep my fat at 130g? Why does this matter? Calories are calories.



There is a *lot* to be said about this, Lyle has done a myriad of interviews and addresses this in his books. 

Okay, so you go a few blocks down the street to visit your grandmother every day, because she's elderly, and she depends on you for support....besides, as her Grandson, its your job to make sure she's okay, and to keep her from becoming depressed.  Most days you do odds jobs, pick things up, fix things, and take her trash to the curb..as well as that of the elderly neighbors next door to her. ..... On occasion, your siblings, friends, cousins, et al go with you to help out....more hands focused on the same task=more efficient work, right?  Although there is one problem. For whatever the reason, there seem to be bags of trash accumulating in the neighborhood...moreso than in the past.  The city is slowly working on the problem, so in the meantime you simply step around them, or over them, and go about your business. But one day, you get word that she has passed out due to exhaustion/dehydration, and isn't doing well at all...she needs your help. So you make some quick calls to everyone who has helped in the past in the hopes that someone could get there immediately. You start to run as fast as you can, but there are bags of trash everywhere...in the road, on the sidewalk..piled 5 bags high everywhere the eye can see...As if this isn't enough of an obstacle, the City workers, who have been collecting the bags on the street and carelessly piling them up in front of Grandma's house to the point that they are nearly blocking her front door, are trying to hand you bags as you run by, but you tell them you have to get in there as quickly as possible! She needs your help! ......and then you remember....you forgot to take out your own trash!
Now, the question is, would it make any sense to go back toget your trash? Why would you want to add to something you've been trying to get rid of? Why add to the obstacle?

Yeah, maybe not the BEST analogy.   I guess I could have said, "because muscles need glycogen (via carbs exclusively) to upregulate hormone levels...and, too high of a fat intake in conjunction with a high carb intake will result in ...yep, more FAT. Lyle, as I recall, recommends a maximum fat intake of 50g during a refeed. (as well as a carb intake of 1.5~3.0grams per lb.of LBM)


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## Phineas (Jun 18, 2010)

That was very detailed, but I'm still confused.

Leptin lowers because the body has shifted into a negative nitrogen balance as a result of a calorie deficit, not necessarily carbs.

Besides, you can take in your normal amount of fat while taking in higher carbs. 

Isn't fat more connected to hormonal levels? Carbs are non-essential. Yes, they are the body's primary source of fuel, but why does that mean refeeds need to contain minimal fat? The point of a refeed is to prevent your body from entering starvation mode. Why does it matter if I eat over 50g fat?

Once again, how is this not a matter of calories in vs. calories out? Isn't the point to, more or less, simply exceed your maintenance calories to outwit your body and keep your metabolism from slowing so that fat oxidation can remain steady?


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## theCaptn' (Jun 18, 2010)

I found it difficult to refeed so many carbs without blowing out fats as well . . you'd basically have to sit their eating plain frikken oatmeal all day!


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## Phineas (Jun 19, 2010)

TheCapt'n said:


> I found it difficult to refeed so many carbs without blowing out fats as well . . you'd basically have to sit their eating plain frikken oatmeal all day!



This is exactly my point!

Why can't fat just be moderate? Like, say, 100g? I take 135-140g on non-refeed days, so I can easily remove 40g fat (though, I would prefer to keep it at 140). 

My maintenance calories are approximately 3,200. With my BF I estimate my LBM to be around 175 lbs I calculate my protein needs to be (going on the high side for my cut...1.5g per lb/LBM) to be approximately 260g. So, for a refeed to just meet my maintenance -- let alone exceed it -- I would have to follow these macros:

Protein: 260g = 1040 calories
Fat: 50g (the highest "Lyle" suggests) = 450 calories
Carbs: 427.5 = 1710 calories

Total = 3,200 calories.

Now, my understanding is a refeed is supposed to exceed maintenance calories. Using a standard bulk surplus of 500 calories, of which all would have to be carbs (since I've already maxed my protein and fat), here's what I would have to add:

+ 500 calories/4 = 125g carbs + 427.5g = *552.5g carbs*

New total = 3,700 calories

I've never eaten that many carbs. Even when at my heaviest stage of bulking I'd say the most I ever took in was 350g a day. Let's break it down...

-1 bagel = 60g
-2 pieces bread = 40g
-100g pasta = 75g
-1/2 cup quick oats = 30g
-160g pasta = 125g
-1 banana (fructose) = 30g
-2 cups milk (lactose) = 22g

Total = 382g (330g complex)

I just can't imagine eating 550g carbs in a day. I'm not Jay Cutler, lol.


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## MDR (Jun 19, 2010)

Sounds very well-thought out to me.  I don't think your re-feed fat levels are too high at all.


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## p nuts (Jun 19, 2010)

i'll chew on a whole bunch of bagels all day. more than 10 bagels is already over 500 grams. i still have usual breakfast, lunch and dinner. consisting of mostly complex carbs. dont even think of protein intake, and watch how much fat i take in on real meals. i'd say i'm pretty close to a 1000, if not over.


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## Phineas (Jun 19, 2010)

Just realized I forgot to include complex carbs from veges. Even so, my daily greens and other veges total to approx 45g. Doesn't add much.


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