# Charles Polinquin and post workout carbs



## Marat (May 28, 2009)

"Fat people should not consume carbs post-workout. The best Post workout drink for a 200lb overweight man is: Whey Isolate 60g + Glutamine 20-80g + Glycine 20g. This will replenish glycogen while preventing fat gain."

thoughts?


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## Yanick (May 28, 2009)

What if that is all the person eats all day?

I'd, personally, like to see some sources. Burden of proof typically lays with the person making the claims so until I see some peer reviewed literature, or atleast a possible mechanism founded on currently accepted physiology, I'm not buying it.


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## Marat (May 28, 2009)

I'd just like to add that his idea of fat people are men over 10% bf and women over 15-20%BF

also:

Approximately 75% of people are carb intolerant and should not be eating grains; the grains are getting people fat. The first step is to get the Omega 3’s in balance by taking hi-quality fish oils. You must eat protein with every meal even breakfast. A meat and nut breakfast will make you leaner even if you do not change the rest of your diet. It is best if you rotate the meat each breakfast. Eat 6-7 meals per day with protein plus smart fats in every meal.

A long-term low carbohydrate diet is the solution for fat people even after they have lost the fat. To begin the diet, eat only meat, fish, eggs, cheese and vegetables (50g of carbs per day or less). Follow this diet for 14 days then have a cheat day, eat whatever you want for the entire day. Return to the ultra low carb diet and have a cheat meal (one sitting) every 4th or 5th day.

1. Once you are starting to lean out you can add berries to the diet. They are strong antioxidants and low glycemic.

2. As you get leaner still you can introduce the Orange family of fruits.

3. As you get leaner again you can add Plums, nectarines, peaches and apples.

4. Then grapes and bananas

5. Then the root vegetables such as yams, and sweet potatoes

6. Then rice, the darker the better

7. The last food to add is grains, and it should never be added for those that are carb intolerant. (If eating carbs made you fat)

A no or low gluten diet is a good thing, it interferes with reaction time.

Stick with this diet 80% of the time and you will do fine and not stressed out by it. Eat more vegetables.

Do not eat Peanut Butter, even the natural kind; it contains a mould that has phyto-estrogens in it.

Fructose syrup is the most fattening food we know of and it ages you; avoid it at all costs.

Have your cheat meal late in the day instead of early when you are likely to keep eating bad the rest of the day. The best cheat meals have some nutritional value

Fatty foods have a reputation for causing bad health but it is Carbs that raise cholesterol and bad blood lipids


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## DIVINITUS (May 28, 2009)

"Do not eat Peanut Butter, even the natural kind; it contains a mould that has phyto-estrogens in it."

Is this true?  I thought it was considered a pretty good food for getting good fats and calories?


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## Built (May 28, 2009)

I've read this too. I only eat a tablespoon of it at a time, and not daily, but I wonder about this myself.


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## Built (May 28, 2009)

Re post workout carbs - not for me, not when I was fat. Pre worked first. I had to get below 20% - actually, WELL below 20%, to feel comfortable with post workout carbs. You can measure your blood sugar and see how high it goes, how long it takes to come down. Pay attention to how you feel.


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## Marat (May 29, 2009)

Built said:


> You can measure your blood sugar and see how high it goes, how long it takes to come down. Pay attention to how you feel.



Is something like this (Easy Check Glucose Test Strips (50) 00101) an effective way of testing? 

I'd like to go by how I feel, but I'm not yet adept at listening to my body...i'd perhaps prefer a more quantitative way to determine my body's reaction to carbs for now. 

I believe that the range for normal fasting blood glucose levels is something like 70-95 and postprandial levels should be under 145. For sample purposes, if  I were at 80 mg/dl fasting and jumped up to 130 2 hours after eating...what would be the periods of time that would suggest the 'levels of resistance' so to speak [i.e back to normal after: A)2 hours suggests carbs are ok postworkout B)4 hours suggests that carbs should be avoided] 

Any idea?


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## Built (May 29, 2009)

I've fiddled with this a bit, on carbups, but not formally. I'd be delighted to work out a protocol with you though. I have a glucose metre a diabetic friend purchased for me because I helped him with his training.


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## est doll (May 29, 2009)

So Built, 

are post workout carbs a no-no unless the person has very low body fat?


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## juggernaut (May 29, 2009)

I'll usually hit the 1-2 tsp macadamia nut oil with casein and whey together after a workout. Good taste.


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## Yanick (May 29, 2009)

So much of this just sounds like pure quackery to me. Poliquin used to be great, I read tons of his articles back in the day. Especially on training. Has he turned all quacky now?


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## juggernaut (May 29, 2009)

no...open your mind, sir.


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## Built (May 29, 2009)

est doll said:


> So Built,
> 
> are post workout carbs a no-no unless the person has very low body fat?



It really depends on the person. I go by comfort - if I get freakishly hungry from post workout carbs, I know I'm over secreting insulin and for me that means I'm too fat.


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## Yanick (May 29, 2009)

m11 said:


> I believe that the range for normal fasting blood glucose levels is something like 70-95 and postprandial levels should be under 145. For sample purposes, if  I were at 80 mg/dl fasting and jumped up to 130 2 hours after eating...what would be the periods of time that would suggest the 'levels of resistance' so to speak [i.e back to normal after: A)2 hours suggests carbs are ok postworkout B)4 hours suggests that carbs should be avoided]



Fasting blood glucose should be under 110mg/dL, with an 8 hour fast. Diabetes is dx'ed via venipuncture with 2 readings greater than 126mg/dL, as venous blood is more accurate than capillary blood (the reading you get from the finger stick method).

Oral Glucose Tolerance Tests (OGTT) are done via venipuncture as well. Typical diet and activity for 3 days prior, baseline glucose measurement, 75g of glucose orally, then blood readings every 30 minutes for 2 hours. Normal=<140mg/dL after 2 hours with intolerance being >140mg/dL and possible Diabetes with a result of 200 or more.

This is a very controlled test though, you can't move around, you must have followed the appropriate preparations (no CHO restriction, normal activity for atleast 3 days), you can't be taking any supplement/med that affects glucose etc. I wouldn't assume a self administered finger stick method as an absolute measure of glucose tolerance.

Normal blood glucose values, from a finger stick, should be 80-120 (depending on who you ask) and slightly higher for folks with insulin resistance/diabetes (90-130).


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## ZECH (May 29, 2009)

Built said:


> It really depends on the person. I go by comfort - if I get freakishly hungry from post workout carbs, I know I'm over secreting insulin and for me that means I'm too fat.



Since we are debating low gi carbs vs high gi carbs in another thread, does this seem to matter to you. Do you function better on one vs the other?


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## Yanick (May 29, 2009)

juggernaut said:


> no...open your mind, sir.



Oh hey my mind is open. One thing I have learned from educating myself is that I don't really know shit and most likely will die not truly knowing much.

I don't disagree with lowered or controlled CHO diets for certain people. I just don't like the 'magic bullet' presentation some of these quacks present. I mean, what does 75% of people are carb intolerant? Has he gone around and administered GTT's to 150 million people? How does he even define carb intolerance? How about calorie/portion control, balanced meals, GI/II/GL?

See I can get behind the things Built talks about. I haven't personally read the research but I have faith in her that if she says that the ex-fat/obese never truly go back to having appropriate insulin sensitivity which leads to a cascade of effects, hunger being the chief one, I can understand why she recommends what she recommends. I also like the fact that he rationales make sense and she doesn't throw out stupid blanket statements like everyone must stop eating carbs now, HFCS is the worst food ever (I mean, again, how do you even define worst food ever?) etc. She also doesn't have some arbitrary list of carbs to add in slowly. Look at that thing, why citrus fruits before berries or yams? Is there even a reason...NO! He just needs to put a spin on shit to get people to follow his recommendations.

So bottom line. Lots of quackery.


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## P-funk (May 29, 2009)

Poliquin is a total quack now.  Has been going down the road of insanity for the past few years.  The old stuff on strength training was good.  Now he is just a lot of voodoo.

patrick


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## Built (May 29, 2009)

dg806 said:


> Since we are debating low gi carbs vs high gi carbs in another thread, does this seem to matter to you. Do you function better on one vs the other?



I don't know that we are truly debating it DG, we seem to be more or less in agreement, at least with regard to the "broad strokes". _Exploring_ might be the more apt term. 

With regard to "functioning better on one than the other"  - interesting question. Thank you for asking it. 

No. It doesn't matter at all to me. Sort of. lol!

What DOES matter is the amount, and the timing. If I am eating my carb preworkout and it's an hour out, slower is better. If I screw up and wait too long between those slow carbs and my workout, I'll top it up a bit with something faster just before I train. 

Please keep in mind when you read this, that you and I have different challenges, and thus different approaches. You are comfortable on mixed meals, you don't have trouble cutting by simply reducing calories, and you've never been fat. You were smart enough to take care of yourself before you ever had the chance to get fat, and you don't weigh and fitday your intake because you don't have to. 

I would not either if I did not have to, believe me when I say to you that this is not a criticism. If anything, I'm envious - and I admire the approach. Why micromanage if you don't HAVE to? Personally, I'm not that much of a martyr. 

*IF* you are not tracking or weighing your intake, it is a LOT easier to knock back 100g of dextrose (about a third of a cup) than it is to knock back the TWO CUPS of quick oats (150g) for the equivalent amount of carbohydrate. 

This is especially true for men, for whom "fullness" is a significant contributor to the postprandial satiety response - far more so in general than it is for women. 

When I was easing my way out of Atkins, I stuck to pure dextrose for my early carb experiments. Because it metabolizes so quickly, it was in-and-out of my system FAST, allowing me to quickly return to the "safety" - that is, the comfort and satiety - of ketosis. 

Does this help you form any kind of an opinion, or does it just muddy the waters that much more?


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## juggernaut (May 29, 2009)

shit, believe in Built....if you Built it will come!!!!!
And Poliquin used to be really good wtf? He kind of sounds like Jay Robb!


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## Built (May 29, 2009)

LOL at juggernaut. 

I do prefer that people question all sources of authority, though. I can be just as right or just as wrong as the next poster. It's good to be critical.


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## juggernaut (May 29, 2009)

I make it an artform


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## Built (May 29, 2009)

Roflmfao!


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## Marat (May 29, 2009)

Built said:


> What DOES matter is the amount, and the timing.



Since this came up, and I feel doesn't get addressed as often as it should, I'm going to plug a previous thread from a few weeks ago.

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/diet-nutrition/99568-macronutrient-intake-timing.html


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## nni (May 29, 2009)

glycine is a good choice post workout if you are carb cutting.


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## Built (May 29, 2009)

I have read this, I think - thanks for the reminder. How much do you recommend, nni?


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## DIVINITUS (May 29, 2009)

juggernaut said:


> shit, believe in Built....if you Built it will come!!!!!
> And Poliquin used to be really good wtf? He kind of sounds like Jay Robb!



Wait...what?  Did I misread or did you defend him earlier in the thread by telling someone else to "open their mind" in regards to thinking he was a "quack"?  Either way, I do agree with another poster who questioned the whole "add this fruit now, that carb later" thing.

BTW...nice avatar


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## juggernaut (May 29, 2009)

DIVINITUS said:


> Wait...what?  Did I misread or did you defend him earlier in the thread by telling someone else to "open their mind" in regards to thinking he was a "quack"?  Either way, I do agree with another poster who questioned the whole "add this fruit now, that carb later" thing.
> 
> BTW...nice avatar


I can be a bit sarcastic.


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## nni (May 29, 2009)

Built said:


> I have read this, I think - thanks for the reminder. How much do you recommend, nni?



The metabolic response to ingested glycine -- Gannon et al. 76 (6): 1302 -- American Journal of Clinical Nutrition



> years ago it was reported that glycine given orally in amounts of 40???50 g results in a moderate reduction in blood glucose concentrations in healthy and diabetic adults [from 5.7 to 4 mmol/L (102 to 72 mg/dL) in healthy subjects and from 14.2 to 8.9 mmol/L (256 to 161 mg/dL) in diabetic subjects] (14, as quoted in 15). Others reported no effect on the blood glucose concentration in fasting subjects (16, 17, as quoted in 15). At that time, it was not possible to measure serum insulin concentrations.
> ...
> In the present study, ingestion of 1 mmol glycine/kg lean body mass ({approx}4.6 g) also did not significantly affect the plasma glucose concentration. It clearly stimulated an increase in insulin, although the increase was modest (Figures 2 and 3GoGo). The glycine was rapidly absorbed and the dose used increased the circulating glycine concentration by {approx}4-fold.
> 
> After this manuscript was submitted for publication, an article reporting the effect of glycine on insulin secretion and action in healthy first-degree relatives of patients with type 2 diabetes was published by Gonzalez-Ortiz et al (18). These authors reported an increase in peripheral insulin concentrations in 6 volunteers who received 5 g glycine orally 30 min before a hyperglycemic, hyperinsulinemic clamp. A small increase in insulin concentrations in 6 other volunteers who received a placebo (magnesium oxide) also was reported, but was only approximately one-quarter of that after glycine...



i usually suggest doing a straight swap, carbs for glycine, 20-25g.


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## juggernaut (May 29, 2009)

Am I mistaken that R-ALA does the same thing?


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## nni (May 29, 2009)

juggernaut said:


> Am I mistaken that R-ALA does the same thing?


very close, but it is a very worthwhile compound. it is however much more expensive than glycine. i would go with k-rala or na-rala.


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## Yanick (May 29, 2009)

nni,

very interesting study. Thanks for sharing. My big question was how glycogen synthesis would be stimulated without any glycogen being supplied? The rise in glucagon is an interesting phenomenon.

Poliquin is still a quack IMO.

Oh and Jugg, Built is a smart lady, no doubt about it but I don't care who you are I like to see sound reasoning (based on accepted physiology) and/or research to back up claims. Especially some of the more, 'out there,' claims.


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## Built (May 29, 2009)

Oh, do I hear you on the "out there" claims. 

I figure if I cite sources, no only do I appear credible, I can assign blame!


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## juggernaut (May 30, 2009)

nni said:


> very close, but it is a very worthwhile compound. it is however much more expensive than glycine. i would go with k-rala or na-rala.


why? I do understand the cost thing; however, if it is the same compound, doesnt it do the same thing?


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## juggernaut (May 30, 2009)

Built said:


> Oh, do I hear you on the "out there" claims.
> 
> I figure if I cite sources, no only do I appear credible, I can assign blame!


lol


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## nni (May 30, 2009)

juggernaut said:


> why? I do understand the cost thing; however, if it is the same compound, doesnt it do the same thing?



they both create an insulin response, but im not certain that they do it in the same way. i have done more research into the end results, not the way they got there.


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## Yanick (May 30, 2009)

Built said:


> Oh, do I hear you on the "out there" claims.
> 
> I figure if I cite sources, no only do I appear credible, I can assign blame!



Haha, nice way to look at it.

In reality we all have a certain method we have both grown accustomed to, feel comfortable with and like to advice people with. The key is how you present your information (give it a shot vs. death will ensue shortly after intaking 100g of dextrose before bed). You become a quack when you start throwing out these blanket statements and using the 'magic bullet' approach, like carbs and HFCS made you fat, 75% of people are carb intolerant, or you can't eat yams for three weeks but berries are okay, or replace breakfast with meat and nuts to lose weight. Quackery I tell ya.



nni said:


> they both create an insulin response, but im not certain that they do it in the same way. i have done more research into the end results, not the way they got there.



Going from the cited study alone (I haven't done any more reading on the subject) I'd say the mechanism is glucose/nutrient shuttling independent of insulin concentration...probably some sort of transient increase in insulin sensitivity or, as they propose in the paper, a yet undiscovered gut hormone which mediates blood sugar levels.



> Insulin concentration
> The mean fasting serum insulin concentration was 48 ± 6 pmol/L (8.1 ± 1 µU/mL) (Figure 3, top). Glycine ingestion stimulated a modest increase in insulin concentration. After glucose ingestion, there was a rapid rise in insulin concentration, which corresponded with the rise in glucose concentration. When glycine was ingested with glucose, the insulin peak occurred later and was slightly less than when glucose was ingested alone.



The fact that glycine alone led to a small, and probably a physiologically insignificant rise in insulin, while glycine and glucose together led to a later and smaller rise in insulin and a smaller and shorter rise in glucose (also in the glucose+glycine group) would lead me to believe that its not really the insulin that is doing the work but some other factor...ie the gut hormone they propose or something akin to a transient increase in insulin sensitivity or whatever else.


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