# Why do my joints hurt so bad



## Nok (Dec 17, 2012)

I did my last shot of test on Dec 11th. 

Went to the gym today and i had a pretty lousy workout :/ 

My shoulders, elbows, and wrists all hurt like a mufuka. 

Is this normal


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## Tris10 (Dec 17, 2012)

Are you on letro?


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## Nok (Dec 17, 2012)

Tris10 said:


> Are you on letro?



Nope.


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## DetMuscle (Dec 17, 2012)

Joint pain can be associated with low thyroid levels, low cortisol, or low  or high estrodial, low serotonin. Get some blood work.


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## brazey (Dec 17, 2012)

^^^bloodwork is needed. What was your cycle? did you use an AI?


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## Nok (Dec 17, 2012)

My cycle was test e 500mg/week. AI was anastrozle 12.5mg e3d

Blood work isnt going to happen until after PCT. Ill begin clomid on friday (10 days after last shot)


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## tjsulli (Dec 17, 2012)

Nok said:


> My cycle was test e 500mg/week. AI was anastrozle 12.5mg e3d
> 
> Blood work isnt going to happen until after PCT. Ill begin clomid on friday (10 days after last shot)


hopefully that's a typo that a huge dosed of anastrozole. anastrozole should be dosed at .25 to 1mg eod


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## Nok (Dec 17, 2012)

tjsulli said:


> hopefully that's a typo that a huge dosed of anastrozole. anastrozole should be dosed at .25 to 1mg eod



Oops brain fart. .5mg e3d


Lol my bad


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## DetMuscle (Dec 17, 2012)

Nok said:


> My cycle was test e 500mg/week. AI was anastrozle 12.5mg e3d
> 
> Blood work isnt going to happen until after PCT. Ill begin clomid on friday (10 days after last shot)




Then why your joints hurt you is all guessing


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## overburdened (Dec 17, 2012)

Nok said:


> My cycle was test e 500mg/week. AI was anastrozle 12.5mg e3d
> 
> Blood work isnt going to happen until after PCT. Ill begin clomid on friday (10 days after last shot)



If you took 12.5 mg of anastrazole every 3rd day, you would have FUCKED yourself.....  Do you honestly know what you took.. or did you just take what the local 'juice dealer' told you to take, and you believed that  it was what he told you it was....


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## overburdened (Dec 17, 2012)

Bloodwork!!!!!


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## Nok (Dec 17, 2012)

overburdened said:


> If you took 12.5 mg of anastrazole every 3rd day, you would have FUCKED yourself.....  Do you honestly know what you took.. or did you just take what the local 'juice dealer' told you to take, and you believed that  it was what he told you it was....



I have a 30ml vial of anastrozle. When i said 12.5mg i was thinking arimidex for some reason. 

Brain fart. 

I research my shit bud. 

Been taking .5mg e3d of anastrozle courtesy of purity


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## XXL (Dec 17, 2012)

You sure your muscles aren't stronger than your ligaments can handle? When I came off my cycle my joints were really sore but winds up the weight I was pushing was tearing my joints up somethin awful. Do Cuban rotations for rotator cuffs, elbows and wrists. It helped me and I have no problem now. If that doesn't work try the chiropractor.


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## president (Dec 17, 2012)

Your getting off otherwise i'd say incorporate some NPP. I hope this doesn't make you feel stupid, but do you 'warm up' before you workout?


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## Nok (Dec 17, 2012)

president said:


> Your getting off otherwise i'd say incorporate some NPP. I hope this doesn't make you feel stupid, but do you 'warm up' before you workout?



Actually going to go ahead and stay on another 4 weeks. 

I warm up with some rotary cuff/shoulder movements. And usually 1 light set, before beginning actual exercising


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## Sydbarrett (Dec 17, 2012)

Nok said:


> I did my last shot of test on Dec 11th.
> 
> Went to the gym today and i had a pretty lousy workout :/
> 
> ...



My guess it sounds normal if you are overtraining.... Do you do Benchpress every chest workout? What is your typical arms/chest/back routine? I don't see any issues with everything you laid out in your T-E and PCT protocols (and now back on E)....I would to change up your upper body routine for a few weeks and see....


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## Nok (Dec 18, 2012)

My upper body routine is brutal, and i hit everything twice a week.... So this might be the problem. Good call


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## heckler7 (Dec 18, 2012)

if you experienced some strength gains and pushed yourself hard you may have overloaded your joints


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## Nok (Dec 18, 2012)

heckler7 said:


> if you experienced some strength gains and pushed yourself hard you may have overloaded your joints



Some strength gains? Lol i rep out my old max for warmups now. Bench went from 180 to 245. 

Same ratio for pretty much everything else too


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## heckler7 (Dec 18, 2012)

Nok said:


> Some strength gains? Lol i rep out my old max for warmups now. Bench went from 180 to 245.
> 
> Same ratio for pretty much everything else too


the strength gains should fade your gonna need to pull back or your gonna injure yourself


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## jay_steel (Dec 18, 2012)

do you ever foam roll, roll on golf balls, or softballs to get deep into the joints? I have allot of built of scare tissue that I have been getting worked out. It has caused me to reduce my bench by 200 lbs due to injuries and ect. How are you stretching and ect as well. Do you warm up or work out your rotator cuffs? All this over a long period of time with neglect can cause some issues. I am facing them now. My wife is an athletic training and I have been having her give me ultrasounds and therapy. Not only is my joint pain gone, but muscles that were not growing are TAKING off. My traps, legs and calves have gained inches with nothing changed to my work out just be deep tissue foam roll and stretching. Also diet is HUGE I eat a table spoon of olive oil with every meal and that seems to help my joints.


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## Sydbarrett (Dec 18, 2012)

This maybe not so far off topic...but what are some good warm-up routines for your shoulders..most in particular, rotator cuffs?  I do 35 or 40 reps doing straight raises (front side - up just past chest level -while seated) with 10lb dumbbells in each hand. I wouldn't mind knowing some others too.


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## jay_steel (Dec 18, 2012)




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## s2h (Dec 18, 2012)

Hows your mood??...do you feel like crying to "hell's bell's" on the radio....are you sleeping ok?...emotions etc....if thats all a non issue...i would say your way overtrained...


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## blergs. (Dec 18, 2012)

Nok said:


> Nope.



are you on PCT?


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## Nok (Dec 18, 2012)

s2h said:


> Hows your mood??...do you feel like crying to "hell's bell's" on the radio....are you sleeping ok?...emotions etc....if thats all a non issue...i would say your way overtrained...



moods are amazing. i emotionally/mentally feel better than ever actually. 

i think it's just that i am over training. i'm gonna go ahead and switch back to hitting everything once a week, rather than 2 times a week. especially with the fact that i'm nearing the end of my cycle.


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## blergs. (Dec 18, 2012)

Nok said:


> My upper body routine is brutal, and i hit everything twice a week.... So this might be the problem. Good call



I only 1 2X a week once n a while 2


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## Nok (Dec 18, 2012)

no. i'm extending my cycle another 4 weeks. so it'll end up being a 14 week cycle. (still within reasonable range i believe, especially for a long ester testosterone-only cycle)


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## Nok (Dec 18, 2012)

blergs. said:


> I only 1 2X a week once n a while 2



been doing it like this:
monday = chest, triceps, shoulders
tuesday = back, biceps
wed = legs
thursday = chest, triceps, shoulders
friday = back, biceps
saturday = legs
sunday = off


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## s2h (Dec 18, 2012)

Nok said:


> moods are amazing. i emotionally/mentally feel better than ever actually.
> 
> i think it's just that i am over training. i'm gonna go ahead and switch back to hitting everything once a week, rather than 2 times a week. especially with the fact that i'm nearing the end of my cycle.



Sounds like a good plan...


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## jay_steel (Dec 18, 2012)

Nok said:


> been doing it like this:
> monday = chest, triceps, shoulders
> tuesday = back, biceps
> wed = legs
> ...




need more recovery bro unless you freaking a genetic freak. 

My split and I am worn out..

Mon- chest tri
Tues-legs calves
weds-off
thurs back and bi, calves
friday shoulders, abs/core
sat- i call it what ever i missed day normally forearms, more calves, traps, and lower back.


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## Nok (Dec 18, 2012)

jay_steel said:


> need more recovery bro unless you freaking a genetic freak.
> 
> My split and I am worn out..
> 
> ...



Well for the past 10 weeks, 2x per week has been working pretty good for me i think. I've seen substantial size everywhere. 

I think its just catching up to my joints and ligaments now. I was told this would happen, but i didnt listen of course. 

Time to slow way the fuck down, drop my weights down a bit and focus on form and maximizing hypertrophy rather than throwing heavy weight around any more.


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## overburdened (Dec 19, 2012)

Nok said:


> I have a 30ml vial of anastrozle. When i said 12.5mg i was thinking arimidex for some reason.
> 
> Brain fart.
> 
> ...


arimidex and anastrozole are the same thing... I think you mean aromasin(exemestane)


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## overburdened (Dec 19, 2012)

Nok said:


> been doing it like this:
> monday = chest, triceps, shoulders
> tuesday = back, biceps
> wed = legs
> ...



Bro, with that split, your shoulders NEVER have a chance to recover at all!!!(muscles recover faster than joints, tendons, ligaments, etc.... and you don't have any time in there for even muscle recovery!!!!  So, your joints are taking a beating!!!!!)  You are SERIOUSLY overtraining your shoulders(keep in mind, they get trained to some degree with back and also with chest...)...  

I would take two weeks, and not train shoulders at all!!!!  Bring training on your bodyparts down to once a week, but leave shoulders out for two weeks, so they can recover a little....  When you start training them again, you should be doing enough warm-up exercises(rotator cuff exercises are GREAT to help warm up the shoulders!!!) that you have a decent pump, and the joint is 'stabilized' by the muscles surrounding it before going heavy on any shoulder exercises(same thing goes for when you train back or chest... do enough warm up that the shoulders are stabilized from the pump)...  And get away from doing barbell flat bench press(heavy)!!!!  It's a rotator cuff KILLER!!!!   Use dumbells, hammer strength presses, whatever... just get away from anything even perceived as somewhat heavy, on flat barbell bench!!!!
Good luck bro!  I hope that info is of some use to you!


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## ashoprep1 (Dec 19, 2012)

^^^It sure can be^^^


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## XYZ (Dec 19, 2012)

Nok said:


> been doing it like this:
> monday = chest, triceps, shoulders
> tuesday = back, biceps
> wed = legs
> ...



Here is your answer as to why.  That is complete and total overkill.

You should be training no more than 2 days in a row without a break.  Your CNS can't handle much more than that.


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## Nok (Dec 19, 2012)

thanks for the advice guys, and especially overburdened. 

way to put it out there for me to understand lol

i'll slow it down. fall back onto 1x per week. and establish a good pump before doing actual reps for hypertrophy


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## XYZ (Dec 19, 2012)

Good luck.


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## AugustWest (Dec 19, 2012)

Nok said:


> I have a 30ml vial of anastrozle. When i said 12.5mg i was thinking arimidex for some reason.
> 
> Brain fart.
> 
> ...



yet another. anastrozole is arimidex.   u mustve of been thinkin aromasin(exemestane)


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## Nok (Dec 19, 2012)

AugustWest said:


> yet another. anastrozole is arimidex.   u mustve of been thinkin aromasin(exemestane)



lol look. i'm taking .5mg of anastrozole every third day.

fuck all the other stuff.

it's irrevelevant.


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## jay_steel (Dec 19, 2012)

XYZ said:


> Here is your answer as to why.  That is complete and total overkill.
> 
> You should be training no more than 2 days in a row without a break.  Your CNS can't handle much more than that.



I also noticed better gains on taking a break mid week vice two days off on the weekend. My sat is more of a recovery work out to me, tons of stretching, massage with a golf ball (PAINFUL) foam roll and some catch up for those muscles i forgot.


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## Nok (Dec 19, 2012)

jay_steel said:


> I also noticed better gains on taking a break mid week vice two days off on the weekend. My sat is more of a recovery work out to me, tons of stretching, massage with a golf ball (PAINFUL) foam roll and some catch up for those muscles i forgot.



i really need to look into this foam rolling, and golf balling


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## vicious 13 (Dec 19, 2012)

E2


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## jay_steel (Dec 19, 2012)

My wife is an athletic training and she has introduced me to allot of great recovery things they do for athletes. I am starting to get therapeutic ultrasounds done as well to break down scare tissue from tears and damage from training. 

Get a softball and put it on your back and lay on it, then try to grab the soft ball with your hand while your laying on it. keep stretching it until you can touch the ball, this will help your rotator cuff as well, Then reach up past your head while your laying down with your arm straight up and let your back of your hand hit the ground and hold it. Roll the ball up an inch or two and repeat. Golf balls on your IT band is PAINFUL but works. In her classes she was telling me that my fascia will restrict muscle growth if it is not massaged and stretched. She used some crazy as terms but thats what I got from it. My legs are blowing up after doing this. Strength is through the roof.


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## Nok (Dec 19, 2012)

jay_steel said:


> My wife is an athletic training and she has introduced me to allot of great recovery things they do for athletes. I am starting to get therapeutic ultrasounds done as well to break down scare tissue from tears and damage from training.
> 
> Get a softball and put it on your back and lay on it, then try to grab the soft ball with your hand while your laying on it. keep stretching it until you can touch the ball, this will help your rotator cuff as well, Then reach up past your head while your laying down with your arm straight up and let your back of your hand hit the ground and hold it. Roll the ball up an inch or two and repeat. Golf balls on your IT band is PAINFUL but works. In her classes she was telling me that my fascia will restrict muscle growth if it is not massaged and stretched. She used some crazy as terms but thats what I got from it. My legs are blowing up after doing this. Strength is through the roof.



i actually just started my ACE personal trainer certification course yesterday, (spent almost $800!) i'm looking forward to learning all about this kind of stuff


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## jay_steel (Dec 19, 2012)

ACE is a data dump, all those self taught personal training things unless you live by it, you will know it all for the test then dump it. If your serious about it get your certs and then go get your degree in exercise science. That is what I was going to do before I landed my computer job and started farming. Great field to get into and depending on where you live you can make great money. Where I live you get paid shit from colleges and places, but in texas a legit trainer (not personal trainer) but some one ATC and all those other athletic training certs will net you like 80k in texas at a high school just doing sports injuries with high school kids and rehab. Or go into physical therapy. That is where the $$ is. I would love to go back and have my dream career, but i need my pay check and dont have time to go to a full time on campus school.


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## Nok (Dec 21, 2012)

jay_steel said:


> ACE is a data dump, all those self taught personal training things unless you live by it, you will know it all for the test then dump it. If your serious about it get your certs and then go get your degree in exercise science. That is what I was going to do before I landed my computer job and started farming. Great field to get into and depending on where you live you can make great money. Where I live you get paid shit from colleges and places, but in texas a legit trainer (not personal trainer) but some one ATC and all those other athletic training certs will net you like 80k in texas at a high school just doing sports injuries with high school kids and rehab. Or go into physical therapy. That is where the $$ is. I would love to go back and have my dream career, but i need my pay check and dont have time to go to a full time on campus school.



My goals right now are to personal train as a means of making ends meet while i go to college for dietetics and nutrition. 

This will take me a few years and in the mean time i will continue getting certs so that by the time i graduate i have several on top of a degree. 

I live in the dallas/ft worth metroplex infact, and i did a little research it turns out this industry is expected to grow by 27% in the next few years. 

I'm excited to see where this goes, i enjoy helping people and what i thought was going to be just me getting into better shape for the ladies has turned into a complete lifestyle change and passion.


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## slownsteady (Dec 21, 2012)

I think this is a pretty cool little thread. Good stuff!


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## Ghopkins (Dec 22, 2012)

There is a supplement that can help with the joint and tendon issue's. It won't do much on cycle because you need some normal E levels to work. It would be perfect for a PCT. It is Cissus Quadrangularis. There are many a few suppliers and you can get it from, and local supplement shops. It will lower cortisol levels with out crushing them. The down side is that it takes about a month to get the benefits. You might think that it was just healing and say it was a waste of money and this would be common. But I have done recoveries with and with out Cissus and can feel the difference. You can Google, check the reviews and give it a try. 
You may not need it, but I sure do. I am an older lifter which means I have more money and less time. And after a work out everything hurts.

Good luck


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## overburdened (Dec 22, 2012)

Nok said:


> My upper body routine is brutal, and i hit everything twice a week.... So this might be the problem. Good call



I would say overtraining is a VERY good possibility!!!


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## Nok (Dec 22, 2012)

I have a question. 

I'm not nearly as strong as i was mid way thru my cycle... Why is that? Is this normal?

I think some of this has to do with my joints, ligaments, etc....

Also. December 11th i did what i thought was going to be my last shot of 250mg test e.
I decided to run 4 more weeks, and only had one shot to hold me off till my next vial gets here.(bad move, i know)

So december 17th i did 250mg, and thats all i have. What is this gap in time going to do in terms of this last month of my cycle?? Hopefully my gear will be here this week. 

If not i just ditch it and run PCT on dec 31st??


Also, i forgot to mention that for the last 10weeks i have been running 500mg/week....


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## Glycomann (Dec 23, 2012)

Everybody gets a little brittle when they come off.  it's normal.  Just suck it up. It's done in 8 weeks. It has to do with your connective tissue taking a beating when you are on and the pain is masked by the antiinflammatory effect of the steroids,  You cortisol signaling is different when on and the estrogen signaling, which is important for joint and bone tissue rebuild and maintenance, is altered. Now off your body is feeling those effects and it takes time for it to mount a corrective response. the longer you stay on the worse this gets to the point where they hurt on cycle. then coming off is pretty damn painful.  What is really shocking in this thread is that more guys have not experienced this or are not realizing it. I assume because almost no one goes off anymore.


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## mrbjoiner (Dec 23, 2012)

arnt you on dianabol too ? ur vids,    i thought u said u started taking them. was that mid cycle? 



Nok said:


> I have a question.
> 
> I'm not nearly as strong as i was mid way thru my cycle... Why is that? Is this normal?
> 
> ...


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## Nok (Dec 23, 2012)

mrbjoiner said:


> arnt you on dianabol too ? ur vids,    i thought u said u started taking them. was that mid cycle?



Well i had ended up taking dbol for about 3 weeks. But that was about a month ago


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## mrbjoiner (Dec 23, 2012)

any good results with it ? or sides?


Nok said:


> Well i had ended up taking dbol for about 3 weeks. But that was about a month ago


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## Nok (Dec 23, 2012)

mrbjoiner said:


> any good results with it ? or sides?



Honestly it was good stuff. Gp dbol, 30mg/day. 

The only reason i stopped was bc i was getting real fat looking. I guess thats the bloat i heard about. 

My gf at the time was makin fun of me lol


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