# number of exercises



## premo (Jul 12, 2010)

hey guys - 

iv been doing 2 exercises for biceps and 3 for triceps now for some time always had good growth in the past - but was wondering if maybe doing more reps or exercises will give the muscle a shock to increase size or will it be detremental and be overtraing the muscle


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## ceazur (Jul 12, 2010)

This is something I am interested in also. I mean most people and most websites say 2 - 3 exercises only for Bicep's since they're such a small muscle and easily over-trained. I am not seeing much gains in the bicep area so I was thinking about increasing my Bicep routine to something like this:

Hammer Curls 2x10
Standing BB Curls 2x6 (Heavy)
Single Arm Concentration Curls 3x8
Chin-Ups 2xMax


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## Zaphod (Jul 12, 2010)

I haven't done anything for my biceps or triceps for some time.  They get worked enough in heavier compound movements.


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## MyK (Jul 12, 2010)

i havent done any direct bi/tri work in a couple of years. I keep meaning to do a couple of sets at the end of a complimentary workout but never do.

does anyone here notice any gains from adding iso bi/tri work to the end of a pull/push???


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## Phineas (Jul 12, 2010)

My arms grew about 2 inches over 6 months after dropping isolation and putting more effort into compounds.

What's more productive? A 35 lb arm curl, or pullups at 195 lbs bodyweight with an additional  35-45 lbs and bent-over BB rows with 165 lbs?


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## premo (Jul 12, 2010)

so what compund exercises work tripes and what work biceps? 

do you only work chest shoulder back and legs ?


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## ceazur (Jul 12, 2010)

I don't think I'm going drop doing bicep curls or hammers. Hammers for sure not. They help form that outer muscle. Plus I like doing them.


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## premo (Jul 12, 2010)

surely there must be good reason to do isolation for these body parts?


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## Phineas (Jul 12, 2010)

premo said:


> so what compund exercises work tripes and what work biceps?
> 
> do you only work chest shoulder back and legs ?



I don't train in terms of muscle groups. I train push/pull. That training style focusses on balancing compound movements for every direction the body can push/pull objects. You can train every muscle in the body (several times over) by using six basic lifts.

Currently, I'm on a volume program I put together. It's a 4-day split:

(1.) Lower Push/Calves
(2.) Upper Horizontal Push/Vertical Pull
(3.) Lower Pull/Calves
(4.) Upper Vertical Push/Horizontal Pull

*aside from calves, there are no isolation movements



ceazur said:


> I don't think I'm going drop doing bicep curls or hammers. Hammers for sure not. They help form that outer muscle. Plus I like doing them.



Just like how you can't isolate an upper, lower, mid, outer, inner chest, you can't isolate the outer or inner biceps. Certain movements can't place a slight more emphasis on certain regions, but ultimately lifting variation provides only a new stimulus for general strength and development.

For instance, if someone trained chest with nothing but incline bench for years it's not as though they would develop odd muscle lumps at the top of their chest. The whole chest would develop; it might just be a slight bit stronger higher above. 

Anyway, if you enjoy training biceps with a neutral grip for the added emphasis on the brachialis, why not go for neutral grip pullups, dumbell unilateral bench rows, close-grip BB rows, close-grip V-bar chins, etc?

You could also experiment with your deads and use a hex-bar so that you're gripping neutral. Many people fail to acknowledge how involved the arms are in deadlifts. Even in squats your arms are having to do some stabalizing.

Also, another overlooked lift with secondary benefits for the arms -- particularly forearms -- are hang cleans. I'm not kidding, give them a go and watch the blood fill them to the point of popping like a baloon. I made a hang clean PR last night and directly had to go to bent-over BB rows. I thought my forearms were going to burst.


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## premo (Jul 12, 2010)

what exercises do you do on upper push and upper pull days ? how long have you been training this way


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## Phineas (Jul 12, 2010)

premo said:


> what exercises do you do on upper push and upper pull days ? how long have you been training this way



Tomorrow is day four of week 2, so I've basically completed 2 weeks.

I wouldn't advise you go for this program if that's what you're leaning at. You have to be careful with volume. This is a particularly brutal program; it goes against many common training/rest principles, which is why I've set up the intensities to avoid overtraining. Also, I plan to follow a 1-week deloading phase each month. So, I train 3 weeks, rest 1, then repeat the process for 4 months.

Upper Horizontal Push/Vertical Pull

(1.) Dead Press -- AND --
(2.) (weighted) Pullups --------------------- 5 x 5 @ 5-6 RM w/ 2 min RI

(3.) Bar Dips -- AND --
(4.) Close-Grip V-Bar Chinups ------------ 4 x 8 @ 10 RM w/ 1.5 min RI

(5.) Incline DB Chest Press -- AND --
(6.) Lat-Pulldowns ---------------------- 3 x 15 @ 18-19 RM w/ 1 min RI  (*** this is the only machine lift in the program...I included it only because with the volume it would have been overkill to include another pullup variation -- especially for 3 sets of 15, which I would NOT be able to do)


The emphasis of the program is on the heavy lifts to get my major lifts up. The rest is accessory for conditioning and hypertrophy.

Also, the only reason I'm able to follow this program without overtraining is my diet is calculated down to the gram. It's a major pain in the ass measuring foods and having to read package on everything to calculate in my head how many ounces or grams it is and how many nutrients I'll get from that based on bioavailability, but it's damn worth it.

The first week on this program was torture. However, by week 2 I was already acclimatized to the volume and am now already seeing results.


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## Gazhole (Jul 12, 2010)

Don't add more work. Either change the exercise to something else for a bit of variety, or do less sets/exercises. I'd wager most people are grossly overtraining rather than undertraining muscles like the arms and chest.

In my experience, like Phineas has explained, i think direct arm work is largely un-necessary for all but the most advanced trainees. I literally do 2-3 sets of arm work a week maximum. Usually hammer curls.

Most programs i do have absolutely no isolation work for arms, or anything else for that matter. If anything my progress has benefited rather than suffered, and i'm not even specifically training for size, lol.

You do heavy compounds on a regular basis without extra useless shit eating into your recovery ability it's pretty hard NOT to grow.


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## premo (Jul 12, 2010)

ok so for example you only do bench press for chest and you alternate between say incline and flat week to week?


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## ceazur (Jul 12, 2010)

So what day would I incorporate hang cleans into my routine?


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## Gazhole (Jul 12, 2010)

ceazur said:


> So what day would I incorporate hang cleans into my routine?



I class them as an upper pull. There is a lot of hip involvement but not so much as a clean from the floor, which i'd put on lower pull day.

Depending on what else is going on in those workouts will also affect where olympic lifts go. They're all so fullbody i tend to put them where i can get the best performance out of them.

Right now i'm doing hang cleans after squats because my posterior chain and traps are fried after deadlifts in my other workout. If you can't pigeonhole an exercise, put it where it makes sense in the program.


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## Phineas (Jul 12, 2010)

premo said:


> so what compund exercises work tripes and what work biceps?



Forgot to answer this.

*Biceps*: horizontal and vertical pull. Any compound movement where you pull objects towards your torso in a horizontal or vertical plane.

Vertical: pullups, chinups, pulldowns

Horizontal: bent-over rows, close-grip rows, seated rows, dumbbell unilateral rows, supine rows

*Triceps*: horizontal and vertical push. Any compound movement where you push objects away from your torso in a horizontal or vertical plane.

Vertical: shoulder press, military press, push press, corner press, arnold press

Horizontal: bench press, dumbbell chest press, bar dips, dead press, floor press, rack lockouts


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## Phineas (Jul 12, 2010)

premo said:


> ok so for example you only do bench press for chest and you alternate between say incline and flat week to week?



Don't take the shock principle too far. You want to keep an exercise long enough to gauge progress.


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## Phineas (Jul 12, 2010)

ceazur said:


> So what day would I incorporate hang cleans into my routine?



There are several options.

(1.) If you follow a push/pull split with a session for upper pushing or with upper horizontal pull/vertical push, then perform the hang cleans with the vertical pushes -- ideally as the first push or lift all together.

(2.) If you follow a push/pull split with one session for all pushing and one for all pulling you could put them wherever your vertical push would go. However, if you split it as lower pull/upper push then the posterior chain fatigue from your lower pull may interfere with your hang cleans. In that case, use a push session, so squats, hang cleans, bench.

(3.) If you follow something like westside or conjugated training, ala Gaz, perform hang cleans in a dynamic effort/power session.

(4.) If all else fails, perform them wherever you feel you can get the most out of them.

FYI -- while it will always be debated, I consider hang cleans to be a vertical push for the apparent shoulder-dominance of the lift. The forward lean isn't great enough to allow the hips to dominate the lift. A clean from the floor I would consider lower pull, if anything besides dynamic full-body. However, a hang clean puts emphasis on the second pull of a traditional clean. While it's still a full-body lift, the emphasis is arguably the shoulders -- and, that's likely where you'll see the most developement in terms of hypertrophy.


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## gtbmed (Jul 12, 2010)

Read the stickies.


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## gtbmed (Jul 12, 2010)

Phineas said:


> FYI -- while it will always be debated, I consider hang cleans to be a vertical push for the apparent shoulder-dominance of the lift. The forward lean isn't great enough to allow the hips to dominate the lift. A clean from the floor I would consider lower pull, if anything besides dynamic full-body. However, a hang clean puts emphasis on the second pull of a traditional clean. While it's still a full-body lift, the emphasis is arguably the shoulders -- and, that's likely where you'll see the most developement in terms of hypertrophy.



I disagree.

I don't believe you can define any type of clean as a "push" or "pull".  But if you were going to look at the primary movers of the bar in a hang clean, you'd see that the traps, hams, and calves are doing most of the work.  Look at the position a lifter is in during triple extension (the second pull) and this is apparent.

If anything cleans work your traditional "upper pull" muscles more than the traditional "upper push" muscles.  The rear deltoids are involved to an extent along with the heavy involvement of the traps.  There's virtually no involvement of the chest muscles or the triceps.

It's splitting hairs though - the most important thing is to include them somewhere.


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## KelJu (Jul 12, 2010)

MyK 3.0 said:


> i havent done any direct bi/tri work in a couple of years. I keep meaning to do a couple of sets at the end of a complimentary workout but never do.
> 
> does anyone here notice any gains from adding iso bi/tri work to the end of a pull/push???



I do push/pull/legs, and find that 3-4 sets of direct biceps work on a pull day seems to be optimal for me. Anything more starts leading to over training. I am training naturally, so the rules change if you are running AS or PH.


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## PushAndPull (Jul 12, 2010)

For me my back routine takes care of my biceps
Weighted underhand grip pull ups = Curls
Weighted neutral grip pull ups = hammer/reverse curls

I do isolation work for triceps, usually a few sets of french press after bench. Since the triceps are a bigger muscle than biceps I feel they can handle the additional load, plus I don't like close grip bench or even bench and don't do nearly the same amount of volume on bench as I do on pull ups.


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## Phineas (Jul 12, 2010)

gtbmed said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I don't believe you can define any type of clean as a "push" or "pull".  But if you were going to look at the primary movers of the bar in a hang clean, you'd see that the traps, hams, and calves are doing most of the work.  Look at the position a lifter is in during triple extension (the second pull) and this is apparent.
> 
> ...



True, but in the context of bodybuilding and strength training hang cleans are usually used for shoulder strength/development.

Also, during the concentric phase the weight is moving away from the torso vertically -- another reason to classify it as a push.


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## cshea2 (Jul 12, 2010)

Ya, I would say cleans are more of a push then a pull. It's weird though, because I have seen a Huge increase in my traps and not much in my shoulders since doing cleans. I guess it could go either way. If I split up my days into push and pull, I would def use it on pull day though. Have you really gotten stronger shoulders from doing cleans?


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## KelJu (Jul 12, 2010)

Cleans use push and pull, but a lot more pull than push.


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## premo (Jul 13, 2010)

can any one who has or currently does the push pull work out please post up there programs so i can see what exercises they do?


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## joboco (Jul 13, 2010)

premo said:


> can any one who has or currently does the push pull work out please post up there programs so i can see what exercises they do?


Ye Ill second that


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## Gazhole (Jul 13, 2010)

Phineas already gave you some examples, but here is a basic way of looking at it:

PUSH:
- Moves the weight away from you.
- Usually extends a limb.
- Involves the anterior musculature such as the quads, delts, and chest.
- E.G. Squats, Step Ups, Military Press, Bench Press.

PULL:
- Moves the weight towards you.
- Usually flexes a limb.
- Involves the muscles of the back and posterior chain.
- E.G. Deadlifts, Good Mornings, Rows, Pullups.

If you look at any exercise you can generally tick two of the three boxes in either Push or Pull. Problems arise when looking at lower body, olympic, or fullbody exercises usually.

In terms of building a program around this, just give it a whirl. 3x week, 20 sets max a session, and only one isolation exercise max are the rules i usually go by.


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## MyK (Jul 13, 2010)

KelJu said:


> I do push/pull/legs, and find that 3-4 sets of direct biceps work on a pull day seems to be optimal for me. Anything more starts leading to over training. I am training naturally, so the rules change if you are running AS or PH.


 
yeah, I've been creeping your journal. you are rediculous! I have a week off next week, so maybe I will sit down and write an actual routine and start a journal. no AS or PH here....


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## BigBadWolf (Jul 13, 2010)

I vary my bicept workouts, for 6 weeks ill train them with back.Usually doing 4 sets of db curls x 45-50lbs. minimal time betwen sets.sometimes ill do a light bi-workout in later in the week, mostly iso and shaping.
After those 6 weeks ill go 6 weeks training them heavy and on a day by themselves once a week.the workout looks like this.ill take atleast 4 minutes between sets.
DB curls-40x15
            45x12
            50x10
            60x8
            65x6
            70x3 or 4 
Hammer curls-60 x10
                   75x8
                   90x6
                   110 till failure (usually 3 or 4)
On the next 6 week heavy program i switch to BB curls/ez-curl bar, but stick with the same theory of higher weight/lower rep.Ive never reaped any significant gains from light weights or few set style of lifting.I believe the best bet is finding out what YOUR body responds too,experiment and see what works for you.


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## premo (Jul 13, 2010)

the push pull or full body work outs interest me iv been doing the (train one muscle at a time split for years now and want to try something new - but just want to make sure im not undertraing by only do ione exercise for each body part ? it looks like you only do one chest exercise per week


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## KelJu (Jul 13, 2010)

MyK 3.0 said:


> yeah, I've been creeping your journal. you are rediculous! I have a week off next week, so maybe I will sit down and write an actual routine and start a journal. no AS or PH here....



The numbers are good, because I am a fat ogre right now, but my strength will take a nose dive once I start to cut calories again.


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## premo (Jul 13, 2010)

is this kind of split training method better suited to someone looking to bulk or gain strength, cut??


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## Gazhole (Jul 13, 2010)

premo said:


> is this kind of split training method better suited to someone looking to bulk or gain strength, cut??



Bulking or cutting will mostly be determined by your diet rather than your training. And strength training will be largely dependent on other variables rather than the split. Periodization is the biggest factor in strength gains.

So really the answer is - all three. Working in terms of push/pull/upper/lower/vertical/horizontal rather than bodyparts is far easier to keep the program balanced and avoid injuries/overtraining.


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## premo (Jul 13, 2010)

ok so i just got back from the gym i did push - this is what i did
shoulder press 1 warm up set 3 heavy
bench 1 warm up 3 heavy
skull crushers into close grip with same weight 1 warm up 3 heavier
incline db bench 3 heavy

did i miss anything important


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## premo (Jul 14, 2010)

another question in regards to isolation movements for biceps and triceps - does the same principle apply for shoulders


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## Gazhole (Jul 14, 2010)

The same principle applies to everything.


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## premo (Jul 14, 2010)

does this workout look ok or did i miss anything that should have been here - i was pretty beat up with this 

in your opinion is it better to follow this with upper body pull or lower body


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## Gazhole (Jul 14, 2010)

Workout looks fine. Just keep that pattern for the other workouts.

I usually alternate upper and lower workouts on this sort of split. Try lower pulling next, then upper pull, then lower push.

Can either do this sort of thing 2, 3, or 4 times a week with good results. You can also make a pretty cool program by cycling frequency over twelve weeks using the four workouts (Upper Push, Lower Pull, Upper Pull, Lower Push = A, B, C, D):


Week 1 - A/B (Mon/Thu)
Week 2 - C/D/A (Mon/Wed/Fri)
Week 3 - B/C/D/A (Mon/Tue/Thu/Fri)

Week 4 - B/C (Mon/Thu)
Week 5 - D/A/B (Mon/Wed/Fri)
Week 6 - C/D/A/B (Mon/Tue/Thu/Fri)

Week 7 - C/D (Mon/Thu)
Week 8 - A/B/C (Mon/Wed/Fri)
Week 9 - D/A/B/C (Mon/Tue/Thu/Fri)

Week 10 - D/A (Mon/Thu)
Week 11 - B/C/D (Mon/Wed/Fri)
Week 12 - A/B/C/D (Mon/Tue/Thu/Fri)


Four microcycles in one program, on the first week of each microcycle use the extra recovery time to push your weights up as much as you can and make some PRs (3 sets of 3-5). In the second week increase the volume a bit (4 sets of 8 or 5 sets of 5). In the third week drop the intensity and volume and let the frequency provide the overload (3 sets of 12 or lighter).


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## premo (Jul 14, 2010)

cant think of too many exercises for lower pull ? might go with a push pull push pull split


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## Gazhole (Jul 14, 2010)

Im sure you can think of four.

Deadlifts
Sumo deadlifts
Romanian deadlifts
Single leg romanian deadlifts
Good mornings
Zercher good mornings
Glute ham raises
Rack pulls
High pulls
Power cleans
Hyper extensions
Reverse hyperextensions
One legged hyperextensions
Cable pullthroughs
Kettlebell swings
Dumbell swings
Leg curls


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## premo (Jul 14, 2010)

i am not familir with all of these - how man y of these work quads?


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## Gazhole (Jul 14, 2010)

premo said:


> i am not familir with all of these - how man y of these work quads?



None of them. Lower Pushing involves the quads, not Lower Pulling.


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## premo (Jul 14, 2010)

sorry !! yes so basicall pulling is hamstrings pushing is quads?  do you think 2/3 compund exercises for each may be enough? im thinking 2/3 exercises for lower with calves abs and bit of cardio ? 

iv had a bad knee and shoulder injurys thats why im asking so many wquestions as im trying to design a program where im not placing to much pressure on either whilst lifting pretty heavy


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## Phineas (Jul 14, 2010)

premo said:


> i am not familir with all of these - how man y of these work quads?



If you've never heard of deadlifts you need to do some research -- basic research.


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## premo (Jul 14, 2010)

i am familiar with deadlifts squats basic ones that is 
iv not heard of some of the exercises for example 
Sumo deadlifts
Romanian deadlifts
Single leg romanian deadlifts
Good mornings
Zercher good mornings
Rack pulls
High pulls
Hyper extensions
Reverse hyperextensions
One legged hyperextensions
Cable pullthroughs
Kettlebell swings
Dumbell swings

a few years a go i played soccer/football and never done weights for legs as there were pretty beefy - then had to retire due to a knee injury so pretty much always just done upper body and basic legs machines untill know 

so iv never done squats or deadlifts or hang cleans beofre


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## premo (Jul 14, 2010)

i am going to start using squats deadlifts etc in my new routine but will just hae to start pretty light


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## gtbmed (Jul 14, 2010)

ExRx (Exercise Prescription) on the Net


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## premo (Jul 14, 2010)

just did lower pull in the gym 

deadlifts kicked my ass

leg extensions 

lower back extensions

abs
yesterday i did upper push but just realised i only did one exercise for shouders (press) should have i done more


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## Gazhole (Jul 14, 2010)

I have integrated a lot of the info/questions that have been discussed in this thread into an article i was writing about my ideas regarding a bodybuilding/mass gain program. Hopefully this should clear up any confusion:

getlifting.info » The GetBodybuilding Training System


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## premo (Jul 15, 2010)

great article and yes it has answered alot of questions - it feels wiered not doing any bicep exercises and not many for shoulders or triceps either but im gonna give it a go


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## shanemcdonald (Jul 15, 2010)

*arms*

As long as you're changing up the rep scheme from time to time, and varying the exercises you use, u should continue to see gains without the need for more volume.


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## unclem (Jul 16, 2010)

hey i hear ya on the overuse knee problems but i could go way over 500lbs in squat but now iam limited to 225 for 5-10 and i might go to 315 if i can get 20 reps at 225. but so far it still hurts and i use the wraps and strapping them, the ones that click your once wrapped. dont try to impress anybody but you. just dont bounce at the down part and go more than parallele to the floor. who cares if its even 135 thats what i had to start at when i started doing squats again. but when it comes to leg presses i can do the stack plus the bar loaded and my legs are only 29 3/4 inch cold, quads. just focus on you fuck wat people think. good luck brother.


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## premo (Jul 16, 2010)

thanks - luckily from my sports days iv always had muscular legs and nevr had to work on them untill now - to be honest im not gonna go mad on them just want to incorporate some mass building exercises for them and the whole body

i dont care how much weight i lift as long as it works - its funny though iv been doing this compound only push pull routine for 4 days and already when im in the gym i feel myself looking around and some guys doing 3 or 4 different kind of lat raises or flies etc and in my head im thinking ha fluff!!!!


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