# PSMF - Built etc... Hows this done?



## goob (Jun 23, 2008)

To anyone with knowledge of this (Built mentioned it a few times).

Hows it done?  

Say for example someone weighing 160lbs, Maintenence 2500 cals.

Hows it laid out, what do you aim for?


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## tucker01 (Jun 23, 2008)

It sucks and is really tough.

Basically you are at around 800 cals.

Another name for it is Protein simply mother fucker.


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## goob (Jun 23, 2008)

IainDaniel said:


> It sucks and is really tough.
> 
> Basically you are at around 800 cals.
> 
> Another name for it is Protein simply mother fucker.


 
So I eat nothing but protein to the tune of about 800 cals?  Holy shit that is hard.  For what two weeks?  No cheating?


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## Built (Jun 23, 2008)

There's a bit more to it than that. I'm rushing out the door right now but I'll come back and mention more here in a bit. Meanwhile, I have it set up for a few people on my blog and you can read those to see how it goes. It's actually not that hard - the low carbs and high protein kill your appetite, and you only lift twice a week, low rep and heavy. And you get refeeds/cheat meals depending on the category you're in. 

Got Built? » Lisa’s pre-Christmas Meltdown!
Got Built? » Got Josh?
Got Built? » The winter of my discontent PSMF (AKA Dane got ME!)


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## goob (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks Iain and Built.  Might try it short term to see whats sort of difference it makes.


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## Built (Jun 23, 2008)

Okay, goob, what percent bodyfat are you at currently?


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## goob (Jun 23, 2008)

Built said:


> Okay, goob, what percent bodyfat are you at currently?


 
13-14% I think.  Not sure exactly, but thats a close estimate.


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## Built (Jun 23, 2008)

Cool. You are category 1, same as me and Josh on the plans I linked.


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## goob (Jun 23, 2008)

Built said:


> Cool. You are category 1, same as me and Josh on the plans I linked.


 
Cool.  Do I need dextrose you had in the plan?  Can i get by without it?

Also, how important is the cardio?  I used to be a pretty decent runner, but I gave it up a few months back, so could I get by without this too?

I'll give it a good combing over, over with some other material I have.

Thanks Built.


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## Merkaba (Jun 23, 2008)

lol...I did this for three weeks,per built...not quite as strict as I could have but I still lost ten lbs, went from 223 to 213.

  What most evil of situations makes you want to punish yourself to such an extent??!!  lol.... check out my thread if you havent.

(the chicken and cabbage soup can really be great if you doctor it up) 

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/90818-pics-my-first-show.html


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## goob (Jun 23, 2008)

Merkaba said:


> lol...I did this for three weeks,per built...not quite as strict as I could have but I still lost ten lbs, went from 223 to 213.
> 
> What most evil of situations makes you want to punish yourself to such an extent??!! lol.... check out my thread if you havent.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, I did check out.  You look great, fantastic job.

I'm a lazy bastard with a lot going on at the moment.  I reckon a really quick ultra hardcore diet would suit me far better than a proper drawn out cut.  Three weeks of hell, is better than a couple of months of comfortable 'hell'.


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## Built (Jun 23, 2008)

goob said:


> Cool.  Do I need dextrose you had in the plan?  Can i get by without it?
> 
> Also, how important is the cardio?  I used to be a pretty decent runner, but I gave it up a few months back, so could I get by without this too?
> 
> ...




No dextrose is necessary, and you actually shouldn't be doing any cardio outside of walking.


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## Witchblade (Jun 23, 2008)

It's for the obese.


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## Built (Jun 23, 2008)

Or not. I liked what 12 days of it did for me to kick-start my cut after Christmas.


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## P-funk (Jun 23, 2008)

yea, it is not just for the obese.

seriously, buy lyle's book....it is good.


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## Witchblade (Jun 24, 2008)

I haven't seen any evidence supporting the benefits of a PSMF, except for the obese. Could you show me any, Built (or anyone else)?


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## Built (Jun 24, 2008)

The benefits?

Define the metric.


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## Witchblade (Jun 24, 2008)

Benefits compared to a 'regular' low calorie diet with 1g/lb of protein, essential fats and carbs or fat to make up for the rest of your calories, especially considering you'd need a shorter refeeding period on a standard diet. 

I'm also particularly worried about the negative effects of a PSMF on a not-overweight person. I don't have any data on this. 

In short, I know a PSMF is an excellent diet for overweight people and I guess it could be used as a crash diet to make weight (easy to combine with cutting water weight), but that's about it. 

New data could change my take on the subject of course.


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## Built (Jun 24, 2008)

Witchblade said:


> Benefits compared to a 'regular' low calorie diet with 1g/lb of protein, essential fats and carbs or fat to make up for the rest of your calories, especially considering you'd need a shorter refeeding period on a standard diet.
> 
> I'm also particularly worried about the negative effects of a PSMF on a not-overweight person. I don't have any data on this.
> 
> ...



Um, I eat a lot more than a gram of protein per pound lean mass when I'm cuttingâ???¦ and I'd hardly consider making water weight the same thing as running a PSMF. 

Witchblade, have you read Lyle's book?


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## Witchblade (Jun 24, 2008)

You're evading my question.


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## Built (Jun 24, 2008)

I'm not evading it - I'm trying to answer the right thing. If you haven't read the book, you're coming from a different position than those of us who have. I need to know how to address your concerns. If you've read it, but still don't see the utility, we can discuss that. If you haven't read it, I can offer you a Cole's Notes version so you can clarify your thoughts.


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## Witchblade (Jun 24, 2008)

I haven't read the book, but I understand the basic principles of PSMFs. I'd definitely like to read a good summary though. (I have time nor money nor patience to read the entire book.)

As for my question, I'll try to paraphrase it. The question is twofold. 

Firstly, I'm concerned about the negative effects a PSMF might have on an already lean invidvidual. I've seen enough studies that show how effective and safe PSMFs are for obese people, but none for lean trainees. Protein is very high, calories are extremely low, essential fats and fat ratios (omega 6:3, saturated:unsaturated, etc.) are lacking and the changes are sudden. Of course you will lose fat, but at what cost? How will the liver react to all this? What happens to your hormonal balance, namely insulin, glucagon, cortisol, GH and IGF-1? In short, _how safe is it_? That's the first part of my question. I don't have any studies to answer it, so I honoustly don't know. I do know of studies that show the effects of equally low caloric all liquid diets and they're most definitely not pretty. I've learned not to underestimate the damage you can do to your body in just two weeks. Risk > reward?

Secondly, how effective is it compared to a less drastic diet? Who so much protein and so little essential fats? I'm talking over a period of weeks or months here. I have no data that compares PMSFs to other diets for lean individuals.


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## Built (Jun 24, 2008)

Witchblade said:


> I haven't seen any evidence supporting the benefits of a PSMF, except for the obese. Could you show me any, Built (or anyone else)?





Built said:


> The benefits?
> 
> Define the metric.





Witchblade said:


> Benefits compared to a 'regular' low calorie diet with 1g/lb of protein, essential fats and carbs or fat to make up for the rest of your calories, especially considering you'd need a shorter refeeding period on a standard diet.
> 
> I'm also particularly worried about the negative effects of a PSMF on a not-overweight person. I don't have any data on this.
> 
> ...





Built said:


> Um, I eat a lot more than a gram of protein per pound lean mass when I'm cuttingâ???¦ and I'd hardly consider making water weight the same thing as running a PSMF.
> 
> Witchblade, have you read Lyle's book?





Witchblade said:


> You're evading my question.





Built said:


> I'm not evading it - I'm trying to answer the right thing. If you haven't read the book, you're coming from a different position than those of us who have. I need to know how to address your concerns. If you've read it, but still don't see the utility, we can discuss that. If you haven't read it, I can offer you a Cole's Notes version so you can clarify your thoughts.



Well, you may not be around now and I may not be around later, so I'll try to answer this from two possible angles.

If you have not read the bookâ???¦

The diet we are talking about here is Lyle McDonald's "The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook - A Scientific Approach to Crash Dieting". It is Lyle's take on the Protein Sparing Modified Fast (PSMF) which has been used medically to induce rapid fat loss in morbidly obese undergoing medically supervised rapid fat loss. Lyle has modified this with the strength athlete in mind, with three different categories (depending upon percent bodyfat) which come with different guidelines for duration, free meals, and refeeds. The protocol is outlined in detail (it's a very good read), and he discusses the need for full diet breaks and exit strategies.  He sells it on his site if you're interested. 

If you HAVE read the bookâ???¦

You will certainly know that this isn't a lifestyle - Lyle is quite clear on this fact. 

My personal opinion on it is that it is a valid modality to use under a variety of circumstances for the non-obese who are looking to drop bodyfat - IF the person using it already knows how to set up a maintenance diet to maintain the weight-loss. This (coupled with muscle-loss from low-protein, super-low calorie dieting with too much activity) is where most people fail miserably under conventional crash-dieting paradigms. 

For an individual who already knows how to diet properly, a few weeks of PSMF at the beginning of  a cut is a nice way to get a kick-start going, particularly if coming back from a layoff or travelling abroad where diet may have gotten away. While you are at your "juiciest", you aren't going to risk metabolic shut down. Neither will you risk much - if any - LBM in a two-week crash diet with very high protein and almost no training. 

Many of us use these periods as a combination of "layoff from intensive periods of training" with a fat-loss kick-start. I learned the value of this earlier this year and it's been invaluable to me.

Another perk to Lyle's plan is that a lot of people in this sport find maintenance (at ANY weight) a lot easier than slow, micromanaged dieting. For people who prefer this, dieting can become a series of somewhat discrete quanta instead of a slow, steady trickle of losses: say, two weeks PSMF, two weeks maintenance, repeatâ???¦

See? Not evading. The question you asked was more than one simple thing to answer.


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## Built (Jun 24, 2008)

Witchblade said:


> I haven't read the book, but I understand the basic principles of PSMFs. I'd definitely like to read a good summary though. (I have time nor money nor patience to read the entire book.)
> 
> As for my question, I'll try to paraphrase it. The question is twofold.
> 
> ...



Ah - we posted at the same time.

It is clear from your questions that you are not at all familiar with Lyle's protocol. Lyle's handbook is not ONE diet, it's three - with different setups for what he calls category 1, 2, and 3 dieters.  He has VERY specific guidelines for lean individuals with regard to the duration they can do this type of diet, the refeed, and the time required OFF the diet to prevent the negatives to which you are referring from happening.


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## goob (Jun 24, 2008)

Witchblade said:


> Benefits compared to a 'regular' low calorie diet with 1g/lb of protein, essential fats and carbs or fat to make up for the rest of your calories, especially considering you'd need a shorter refeeding period on a standard diet.
> 
> I'm also particularly worried about the negative effects of a PSMF on a not-overweight person. I don't have any data on this.
> 
> ...


 
 Witch is just looking out for me.  What a nice chap....  Never knew he cared....


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## Witchblade (Jun 24, 2008)

OK, I think we're really miscommunicating here. You've given a lot of good info, but not what I'm looking for. I still don't see any data to support the notion that so much protein and so little fat is required (efficacy) or studies that show the absence of side effects (safety). I understand the basics, but these two points aren't covered by the basics.

However, I think I'm missing the point too. I just looked at your blog and the 3 PSMF examples there are definitely not what I'm talking about. 2 of them are high bf% and Josh still consumes nearly 2,500kcal. This doesn't disturb me at all (although I have my doubts about the 2g/lb protein). It's just a regular crash diet with lots of protein.

So, to avoid further miscommunication let's get this straight. I'm talking about the standard PSMF, the one Iain was also referring to: sub 1,000 Cals, not much but protein. *Is Lyle's category 1 this same thing or is it like Josh's diet in your blog?*


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## Built (Jun 24, 2008)

Witchblade said:


> OK, I think we're really miscommunicating here. You've given a lot of good info, but not what I'm looking for. I still don't see any data to support the notion that so much protein and so little fat is required (efficacy) or studies that show the absence of side effects (safety). I understand the basics, but these two points aren't covered by the basics.
> 
> However, I think I'm missing the point too. I just looked at your blog and the 3 PSMF examples there are definitely not what I'm talking about. 2 of them are high bf%


Which two? Lisa is in the low thirties, but I'm only at about 21% there, putting me and Josh in the "leanest" category: 1. 
(Pssst.. I'm a GURL! 21% is pretty damned lean for a woman - we compete at 10-12%. Fashion models are usually 30%. LOL!)


Witchblade said:


> and Josh still consumes nearly 2,500kcal. This doesn't disturb me at all (although I have my doubts about the 2g/lb protein). It's just a regular crash diet with lots of protein.


What doubts do you have about 2g/LB lean mass - that it needs to be this high to prevent muscle loss? Of course it doesn't. Protein does, however, stimulate CCK (increases post-prandial satiety) and suppress ghrelin (decreases appetite) better than fat or carbohydrate. Most helpful while STARVING! 


Witchblade said:


> So, to avoid further miscommunication let's get this straight. I'm talking about the standard PSMF, the one Iain was also referring to: sub 1,000 Cals, not much but protein. *Is Lyle's category 1 this same thing or is it like Josh's diet in your blog?*



I'm _pretty_ sure Iain was talking about the same diet as the rest of us (the tipoff was "motherfucker"!  ). Lyle's book outlines the most extreme end of low you can go to - which, if you have 200lbs of lean mass and you're a category 3 dieter, means 800 calories a day from protein, plus the tag-along few hundred from leafy veggies and such. I count these - and Josh's plan reflects that. Also, Josh was not a category 3 dieter - he's category 1.  Category 1 dieters have to be more careful than Category 2s and 3s. Of course, many of the rules get bent when the athlete is assisted, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

Wichblade, you really ought to read the book. You strike me as an intelligent person with thoughtful insight and good questions. Lyle addresses your very apt concerns in his book. Addressing your point regarding EFAs etc, there are guidelines for these in Lyle's setup. Nonetheless, when I did this diet, 6 days in my mouth was so dry I had to make the executive decision to slow down the diet in favour of some additional fat. My body can NOT handle low-fat dieting under any circumstances. I was rapidly becoming malnourished, and I AM assisted (!) - I'm on transdermal testosterone and progesterone HRT. 

Ultimately, the intelligent approach to these things is to adjust to the individual. Lyle's book gives the lowest safe levels from which to start.


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## Built (Jun 24, 2008)

The book can be bought here: Bodyrecomposition - Lyle McDonald

And you can talk to Lyle on his forum - maybe ask him why he set the diet up the way he did: BodyRecomposition Support Forums - Powered by vBulletin


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## Witchblade (Jun 24, 2008)

I guess I _should_ read the book then. I'll also make sure to visit the forum you linked. 

Thanks for the help. You da girl.


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## Built (Jun 24, 2008)

Yes, yes I am... 



Cheers!


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## DaMayor (Jun 24, 2008)

Built said:


> Yes, yes I am...
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers!



wow.


I hate to go backwards here, but where were the categories defined?


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## Built (Jun 24, 2008)

Um, in the book...


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## DaMayor (Jun 24, 2008)

Sorry for the stupid question.


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## Built (Jun 24, 2008)

LOL - the thread kinda went sideways there for a bit! Lyle's categories depend on how fat you are - one's the leanest, three's the fattest.


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## ZECH (Jun 24, 2008)

Witchblade said:


> I guess I _should_ read the book then. I'll also make sure to visit the forum you linked.
> 
> Thanks for the help. You da girl.



No, she's the WOMAN! She's far from a girl.


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