# Dieting down log!



## Pika (Aug 19, 2011)

Ok guys im doing a 3 month dieting down iv done  5 weeks got 3 months less iv lost 6bls so far im doing this because its soo hard!! Im always hungry ha maybye this will keep my mind off of it  


Ok so pros 230g carbs 150g and fats 75g 

2200cals aday  i was 181bls im im now around 175bls to 176bls 

Day 1


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## alan84 (Aug 19, 2011)

Pika said:


> Ok guys im doing a 3 month dieting down iv done  5 weeks got 3 months less iv lost 6bls so far im doing this because its soo hard!! Im always hungry ha maybye this will keep my mind off of it
> 
> 
> Ok so pros 230g carbs 150g and fats 75g
> ...



What is your question?


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## Built (Aug 19, 2011)

I think he just wants to make sure he's on track. Pika, looks good. How will you be training for this?


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## Pika (Aug 19, 2011)

Yh it's just to keep my mind on it like a goal ..... Im training the same so far i mean i don't lower the weights as it says every form that it don't do anything for you is that right?

Ohh and built just want to say thanks alot for the time to help me with my diet it's on point right now  cardio is 20 mins 4 days aweek also


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## Built (Aug 19, 2011)

You're saying you're going to try to keep the iron on the bar - and yes, that's right. Reduce your volume (reps and sets) before you reduce the weight you lift as your cut deepens. Cardio @ 20 mins x 4 a week is perfect. 

And you're welcome.


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## Pika (Aug 19, 2011)

Just posting my diet ...

9am shake (30g of whey )
4 whole eggs 50g of weetabix 2% milk.

12pm shake 130g of tuna 50g of oats 1% milk

4 pm 210g of chicken with 50g of oats 

5:30pm gym till 6:45pm then shake 30g of whey Banana 1 large

8pm 210g of chicken 3 table spoons of oliv oil ....


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## Pika (Aug 19, 2011)

Hold on are you saying in cut that it's best to do more reps low weights ? Or did i read up wrong?


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## ExLe (Aug 19, 2011)

Almost looks exactly like my cutting routine. I do about 200g protein 140 carbs 70g fats.

I would add some more carbs post workout. You are only eating a bannana when your body needs carbs the most. Your body will have better use of those carbs post workout. When I cut as far as carbs go I do

1st-20g complex carbs
2nd-20g complex carbs
3rd-40g complex carbs (pre workout)
4th-40g simple carbs(post dextrose/maltodextrine)
5th-20g complex carbs
6th-none (just some good Casien protein)

I lose a good amount of fat while still having enough energy to lift and do cardio.

Good luck


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## alan84 (Aug 19, 2011)

Pika said:


> Hold on are you saying in cut that it's best to do more reps low weights ? Or did i read up wrong?



Nah, she means to keep the same weight on the bar but reduce your reps and sets. For example, if you are doing bench press 200 lbs 4 sets by 10-12 reps, you would want to do 3 sets of 6-8 reps instead, but still the same weight 200lbs.


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## Built (Aug 19, 2011)

ExLe said:


> Almost looks exactly like my cutting routine. I do about 200g protein 140 carbs 70g fats.
> 
> I would add some more carbs post workout. You are only eating a bannana when your body needs carbs the most. Your body will have better use of those carbs post workout. When I cut as far as carbs go I do
> 
> ...


exle, you may wish to rethink your strategy. I eat all my carbs near bedtime, and I train around noon. No need to eat carbs post workout; if you want an insulin response you'll get a really nice insulin response from whey - milk proteins are excellent in this regard. I use whey shakes as a preload before my carb meals for this very reason, to aid in glucose disposal. 



alan84 said:


> Nah, she means to keep the same weight on the bar but reduce your reps and sets. For example, if you are doing bench press 200 lbs 4 sets by 10-12 reps, you would want to do 3 sets of 6-8 reps instead, but still the same weight 200lbs.


^this. Thanks Alan.


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## ExLe (Aug 19, 2011)

I have my post workout carbs with whey. I have always been told Casein protein (milk) is not ideal post workout because its a slower digesting protein. Some people even say it slows the absorbtion of whey if taken together post workout. 

I have tried both while cutting and here is my findings

Whey alone post workout- I will lose weight slighlty faster, but my muscle mass suffers. I will look a bit deflated. (compared to my bulk look)

Whey with dex/malto- I lose weight a bit slower but I keep most of my bulking gains and don't look deflated. 

My conclusion is that if your main priority is to lose weight as fast as possible without worring about losing muscle mass then whey alone post is a better option, especially for females who are not concerned about muscle.

If you are concerned about losing size while cutting simple carbs with your whey post have helped me keep good size. 

Of course like most advice it's trial and error and somethings work for some and not others.


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## Built (Aug 20, 2011)

ExLe said:


> I have my post workout carbs with whey. I have always been told Casein protein (milk) is not ideal post workout because its a slower digesting protein.


Other way around. Casein is better BECAUSE it's slower. Casein's slower nature allows it to stick around, producing a result which in this regard is superior to the transient appearance of amino acids from whey. 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC25140/pdf/pq014930.pdf (1997)

Incidentally, the authors of this study cite earlier research which showed three meals produced superior protein synthesis when compared with smaller meals in more frequent feedings. 
"with respect to the issue of leucine balance, it is noticeable that Young???s
(13) group recently reported a 24-h leucine balance, which was better with three discrete meals than with multiple small repeated meals, the latter circumstance somewhat mimicking a slow protein absorption."
http://www.ajcn.org/content/62/3/579.full.pdf (1995)

The authors go on to mention carbohydrate was included in the 1995 study, which is important to mention here because carbohydrate slows down the absorption. In other words, in a mixed meal, none of this matters. In a liquid meal of only protein, if you feel you must only have this and not a mixed solid meal, pick casein for your post-workout meal. But thinking of whey as superior for post workout because it is fast is simply fallacious.



ExLe said:


> Some people even say it slows the absorbtion of whey if taken together post workout.


Which is probably a better way to go. Note that milk contains both proteins. Babies need the anabolic quality of a slow, mixed liquid meal with various proteins, carbohydrates and fats. 



ExLe said:


> I have tried both while cutting and here is my findings
> 
> Whey alone post workout- I will lose weight slighlty faster, but my muscle mass suffers. I will look a bit deflated. (compared to my bulk look)


Of course you do - you're not all carbed up. Glycogen isn't muscle - it's just IN muscle. Have a carbup, then go train the next day. Trust me, you'll re-inflate. 



ExLe said:


> Whey with dex/malto- I lose weight a bit slower but I keep most of my bulking gains and don't look deflated.
> 
> My conclusion is that if your main priority is to lose weight as fast as possible without worring about losing muscle mass then whey alone post is a better option, *especially for females who are not concerned about muscle.*



Oh, wow. I've been thinking all wrong - I was supposed to be unconcerned with muscle loss. I mean, why would a woman want pesky MUSCLES - besides, it's super-easy for women to gain muscle, not like how it is for men. For men, muscle gain is DIFFICULT, but for women, we gain it so easily, we don't care if we lose some while dieting! 

I'm SO glad you told me this. Maybe now I can get that soft, skinny-fat physique I've been after for so long!




ExLe said:


> If you are concerned about losing size while cutting simple carbs with your whey post have helped me keep good size.
> 
> Of course like most advice it's trial and error and somethings work for some and not others.



Of course - everybody is different. This is why it's utterly useless to study human physiology. There's no possible way to generalize from one person to another. It's a silly, made-up science. 

<cough>


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## Built (Aug 20, 2011)

BTW, Martin Berkhan addressed the 1997 study on his site, under myths: Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health: Diet Mythology. (See Myth 5)


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## ExLe (Aug 20, 2011)

I agree that Casien protein or a combo with whey would be better if you only had 3 meals a day.

 This would mean several hours before your next meal benifiting from the slow acting protein.

 Now taking into consideration that MOST weightlifters including myself eat 6 meals a day and know that it's optimal to have a solid meal 1 to 1 hour and 30 min. after your post shake. With more protein coming in such a short time this deafeats the purpose of a slow acting protein. 

I will stick with my Casien at night and my whey post.

I sence your sarcasim, but go to a gym and ask 10 females (usually doing cardio) if muscle mass is a concern, 9 out of 10 will say no. I'm sorry you took it the wrong way, but that's why I said females "who are NOT concerned about muscle" not all females, as apposed to most males in the gym who are concerned about muscle mass. 

Have you ever personally tried dextrose with whey post workout for a few weeks?


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## Built (Aug 20, 2011)

ExLe said:


> I agree that Casien protein or a combo with whey would be better if you only had 3 meals a day.
> 
> This would mean several hours before your next meal benifiting from the slow acting protein.
> 
> ...



Yep, I have. I get a better insulin response from unsweetened whey than from its combination with dextrose. Lots of people do, especially former fatties and others with insulin resistance in their history. The fatter we get, the more insulin resistant we all become. Our insulin response to glucose becomes attenuated as the beta cells of the pancreas also develop insulin resistance; however, the BCAAs in dairy proteins - particularly leucine - continue to promote an insulin response. This effect is so pronounced, type II diabetics who preload their meals with a whey shake get as good or better glucose control than they get from metformin. 

Furthermore, since it's insulin, and not glucose that opposes cortisol, whey alone is sufficient for this endeavor. Insulin + amino acids mean protein gets shuttled into the muscle. Reglycogenation happens over the hours and days following a workout, so eating solid food will accomplish this nicely, even outside the so-called anabolic window. 

Women who think it's a good idea to drop muscle while cutting are setting themselves up to never, ever get that mythical toned physique for which they strive. You posting that up not only neglected to consider your audience, but irresponsibly promoted the notion that weight loss without regard to muscle-retention is acceptable if you're female. For a woman who does NOT want a muscular physique, but wants to be slim and "toned"-looking, muscle-retention is critical. She doesn't want any MORE muscle - that's why she's not going to bulk. But if she wants to keep the weight off, she better not drop her metabolic rate down by chewing through the tiny bit of muscle-mass on her body. 

Your reading is woefully out of date if you think six meals is optimal for muscle gain. Protein synthesis is enhanced when protein is consumed less frequently, in larger quantities. Kindly re-read what I wrote. We've known this since at least 1997 when those articles were written.


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## ExLe (Aug 20, 2011)

So I and every other weightlifter who uses dextrose and whey post workout and has 6 meals a day have been doing it all wrong all because some study in 97 says so. 

Thank goodness for your wisdom

Attention all lifters

Casien/whey protein only post workout no carbs
Only 3 large meals a day

And if you don't agree becasue you have had great results from using dexrose/whey and eating 6 meals a day just read the study from 1997.


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## lemon_ (Aug 20, 2011)

Maybe the study on using dextrose/whey and eating 6 meals was older. 
Built didn't just say "eat 3 meals a day it's good", she gave a competent explanation and linked the source, besides she didn't disrespect anyone.


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## Pika (Aug 20, 2011)

Oh right ok, honestky its weird why would one do less if his losing weight? Lol cobfusing but ok sure  i listin to the pro's  


I eat 4 meals a day as i listin to built she knows her stuff if you read her posts your see ...


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## Built (Aug 20, 2011)

ExLe said:


> So I and every other weightlifter who uses dextrose and whey post workout and has 6 meals a day have been doing it all wrong all because some study in 97 says so.


What you're doing will work. A lot of stuff works. Some stuff works better with less effort and more comfort. 

I'm as lazy as they come. I am ALL ABOUT looking for an easier, more comfortable way to reach my goals. 




ExLe said:


> Thank goodness for your wisdom
> 
> Attention all lifters
> 
> Casien/whey protein only post workout no carbs


This most certainly works well. 


ExLe said:


> Only 3 large meals a day


So does this. 



ExLe said:


> And if you don't agree becasue you have had great results from using dexrose/whey and eating 6 meals a day just read the study from 1997.


Exactly. There had been earlier research suggesting the opposite, but since at least 1997 we've known meal frequency does not improve protein synthesis (above study), nor does it speed fat loss or improve metabolism (1997). For that matter, small frequent feedings are no better for appetite control while dieting (and in fact, can be worse (2010)), and also for glycemic control (2009), which is important for diabetics and anyone coping with insulin resistance. Hypocaloric dieting induces insulin resistance, so yes, this is indeed relevant for bodybuilders. 

ExLe, myths die hard in physical culture. I've struggled with cognitive dissonance over dietary protocols more than once myself. 

Do the reading anyway. 

You may not wish to change how you do things because it may very well be more comfortable for you - and I'm a big fan of comfort. However, you may find as others have that there are many ways to do this - you just have to find the one you can stick to. 


Pika said:


> Oh right ok, honestly its weird why would one do less if his losing weight?


Pika, while dropping weight, you want to make sure you don't burn off muscle. The trick here is to convince your body you need the (big, pesky, calorie-burning) muscles, and you do this by lifting heavy things. You don't need to completely trash yourself - there's no need, you're not going to bulk, you've got too little food coming in. You just need a regular stimulus that tells your body to risk-manage the muscle it has - so it has to drop fat instead. That's why you try to keep the iron on the bar, rather than dropping it to do more volume. It takes a big muscle to lift a heavy weight. It takes very little muscle to lift a pencil, even if you lift that pencil a hundred times.

PS you don't have to eat four meals a day. You may eat one, or six, or twenty micro-snacks; you'll probably feel fuller on three or four larger meals though, and you won't compromise your muscles at all in doing so. 


lemon_ said:


> Maybe the study on using dextrose/whey and eating 6 meals was older.
> Built didn't just say "eat 3 meals a day it's good", she gave a competent explanation and linked the source, besides she didn't disrespect anyone.


Thanks lemon. I'm not here to trash anyone; there's never a reason to jump into a discussion by insulting your opponent. It's weak - moreover, it's not sporting.


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## ExLe (Aug 20, 2011)

Built-"Of course - everybody is different. This is why it's utterly useless to study human physiology. There's no possible way to generalize from one person to another. It's a silly, made-up science. "

This comment is what ticked me off a bit last night. You can almost always find a study supporting a theory over another. Eggs are good, no eggs are bad, coffee is good no coffee is bad, to much protein is bad, keto is safe, keto is not safe.... and the list is endless.

When it comes to building a physic I am happy with trial and error has paid a major role in finding out what works and what doesn't. It kinda stings to here someone say what you have been doing for years is wrong because some study done 14 years ago says so.

I think we both acted a bit bullish last night defending our positions.

I respect all the good advice and huge reputation status you carry on this site and know you have helped thousands out. I look forward to discussing other subjects that come up in the future.


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## Built (Aug 20, 2011)

ExLe said:


> Built-"Of course - everybody is different. This is why it's utterly useless to study human physiology. There's no possible way to generalize from one person to another. It's a silly, made-up science. "
> 
> This comment is what ticked me off a bit last night. You can almost always find a study supporting a theory over another. Eggs are good, no eggs are bad, coffee is good no coffee is bad, to much protein is bad, keto is safe, keto is not safe.... and the list is endless.



Hunny, that's the problem with bad research. I have two degrees in research science. I read the studies. I am learning how to tell when they've been poorly-designed. 

Consider this: the truth doesn't change; rather it is our understanding of it which is in flux.  




ExLe said:


> When it comes to building a physic I am happy with trial and error has paid a major role in finding out what works and what doesn't.


Trial and error is a lot more effective when you have a non-fucked starting point. You'll find your way a lot faster when you know which part matters and which parts are optional. 

My aim is to provide that non-fucked starting point. The optional parts I leave to the reader as an exercise (fellow math geeks will catch the joke). 


ExLe said:


> It kinda stings to here someone say what you have been doing for years is wrong because some study done 14 years ago says so.


Ah, you took it the wrong way. I'm not quoting outdated research to support my claim. Rather, I'm inferring this information has been known for a long time, and even so, it STILL hasn't filtered down to the mainstream. 

Meal frequency and energy balance, for instance. I spoke to a woman with a recent dietetics degree from the University of British Columbia and she was taught in her coursework that small, frequent feeding is better for fat loss and appetite control. Research refuting this has been known for fourteen years now, and still, an academic research institution is teaching outdated information to it's future professionals. 

I take it you find this as galling as I do. 


ExLe said:


> I think we both acted a bit bullish last night defending our positions.


If by "both acted bullish" you mean "I reacted sarcastically to your insulting posts", then yes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






ExLe said:


> I respect all the good advice and huge reputation status you carry on this site and know you have helped thousands out. I look forward to discussing other subjects that come up in the future.


Thanks bud.


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## Pika (Aug 20, 2011)

Oh right ok so keep the weight the same just  3 sets of 6 to 8 reps... Got it  


I think its very heathy to have a strong talk about facts what seems to work what don't im just glad they made a bord like this as it just helps alll us less normal ppl out  lol honest great sub's guys thanks for the input looking forward to more in te future  

Thanks as always built


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## Built (Aug 20, 2011)

Discussion is good. Blindly following someone's words - mine included btw - is always a bad idea. Know the reasons why you do what you do.  "Well, I'm comfortable, and it's working" is a perfectly valid reason. So is "I've read research that supports what I'm doing, it's easier than what I did before, and it's still working" is also valid.

If you disagree with something you read here or anywhere, be prepared to back up your argument with something other than "well, we've always done it this way".


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## Pika (Aug 20, 2011)

I understand i honestly aint folwing your advice blindly because it's working im losing like a pound aweek! Lol muscles feel hard not getting bigger or stronger realy i mean i max out at 70kg i can do 6 to 8 reps but thats it so i think ima hit 65kg and do 3 sets 6 to 8 reps.

Honesly can not wait to get to the 1st of nov so i can start bulking  and thats when ima need your advice in 3 months if thats ok


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## Pika (Aug 20, 2011)

I mean the reason why i had like % 20 or wateva bf you think i can is because i bulked using a weight gainer and mc'd fast foods lol so not a good idea lol


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## Built (Aug 20, 2011)

Ah, the "dirty bulk" - you gained too fast. Yep, drop me a note when it's time to bulk.


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## Pika (Aug 20, 2011)

Yh i did the fucker in the store said to take twice as much so i waa takinin 5000 cals aday pluse food at only 155bls lool and yh 100% thanks alot il bell ya on the 1st nov


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