# PROHORMONES almost done!



## gopro (Mar 16, 2004)

Many of you may already know, but I got word today that there has been a stoppage of all PH/PS raw materials from entrance into the U.S. No raws, no product. I think the hammer is dropping for good!


----------



## Arnold (Mar 16, 2004)




----------



## PreMier (Mar 16, 2004)




----------



## I'm Trying (Mar 16, 2004)




----------



## Power Rabbit (Mar 16, 2004)

im not familiar with law but isnt it not legal to stop the shipment of something that is legal?? its like not allowing you to import sugar


----------



## Deeznuts (Mar 17, 2004)

That's fucking ridiculous. It looks like when i'm old enough to finally take something like PH's i'll just be shit out of look.


----------



## gopro (Mar 17, 2004)

Right now the FDA is circumventing the law and being allowed to do so. Even in the case of andro which they are trying to pull from the shelves, the FDA says to supplement manufacturers, "Prove it safe or we are going to pull it!" But the "law" is supposed to put the burden of proof on the FDA! THEY are supposed to need to prove something UNsafe before THEY can remove it from sale.

I will update you if I here more about this, but for now it seems that ZERO raws will be allowed in, which spells doom for one of our most effective OTC supps!


----------



## hardasnails1973 (Mar 17, 2004)

mexico here I come LOL


----------



## ZECH (Mar 17, 2004)

Don't forgot though that this bill also includes a MAJOR crackdown on steriods and increased penalties for selling and using. It will be a mere trickle of what it is now!


----------



## Flex (Mar 17, 2004)

thats bullshit.

i think this will have the same effect as prohibition. now people are just gonna start going even more to the black market for steroids.
oh well, just have to start juicin.


----------



## ZECH (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> thats bullshit.
> 
> i think this will have the same effect as prohibition. now people are just gonna start going even more to the black market for steroids.
> oh well, just have to start juicin.


Read the post before yours.


----------



## Flex (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Read the post before yours.



i did, and i dont think it matters. 

steroid laws don't deter people now, so why would they after new laws?


----------



## Flex (Mar 17, 2004)

honestly, with all the bullshit going on this world and in the US, the gov't is making such a big fuckin deal about performance enhancing drugs????

how about the economy? or war? or every other more important problem  going on.

but no, because baseball is making a big deal that their players juice, and b/c the public loves baseball, now all of a sudden steroids are such a big deal.


----------



## ZECH (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> i did, and i dont think it matters.
> 
> steroid laws don't deter people now, so why would they after new laws?


If the raws can't get into the country how do you think you will get steriods? And I woudn't even consider mail order overseas. They will watch that worse than a hawk. There will be VERY little to go around.


----------



## Flex (Mar 17, 2004)

you honestly think they can stop u.g. labs from making steroids?
my buddy knows about 100 connections from all over the country, and he can get ANYTHING.

not to be a wiseass dg, but the gov't can't even come close to stopping "hard" drugs (coke, ecstacy etc.), so what makes you think they can stop steroids? i mean shit, i can literally dial up almost every number on my cell phone and get some sort of drug (excluding my parents haha).

esp. considering that steroids are so much more on the "DL". in other words, people aren't out at steroid parties getting all juiced up and then getting behind the wheel and driving (and getting pulled over and caught). people aren't out on the street corners selling steroids to undercover cops(and getting caught). their arent setup drug buys w/steroids......


----------



## Flex (Mar 17, 2004)

shit, Ronnie Coleman WAS A POLICE OFFICER, and ya think he was juicin?


----------



## brodus (Mar 17, 2004)

Okay--so the real question is this:

How much more time do I have to order my stockpile?!!

I probably won't be doing any cycles for at least six months, but the writing is on the wall, and I see now that I need to order soon.  I was planning on stocking up over the next two months.

Honestly, what do you guys think? Three-four months left? If we use the ephedra ban as a benchmark, this seems about right (it was announced in Nov/Dec, will be in effect in April)


----------



## nikegurl (Mar 17, 2004)

this may sound crazy...but I'm starting to wonder.

does anyone think creatine would ever show up on the next supplement hit list?


----------



## brodus (Mar 17, 2004)

No way will creatine go on the list.  Nor will protein, ZMA, or any of that stuff.  Creatine is an approved substance in all major sporting organizations, and that is the cornerstone of why we're evening talking about this on a national level.

You have to understand the motivations behind the ban and how it all figures into professional sports.  If the MLB Players Association had agreed to the same rules that football, basketball, and the Olympic sporting organizations agree to, this would never have gotten to the level it has.  We wouldn't be posting right now.  But since baseball is seen as an integral part of our national identity, and seen as influencing the attidtue of youth, AND since the players organization is so reluctant to regulate the behavior of the players, the bill became part of a larger debate.

Even John McCain, the chairman of the committee investgating all of this, and a large part of this debate, said that he didn't think congress should have to get involved in this debate, but that MLBs actions forced it to.

IRONICALLY the head of the MLB turned the argument said it was the GOVERNMENTS job to ban ANDRO AND PRESCURSORS for EVERYONE, not MLBs job to regulate it's millionaire players.

I watched the senate hearings, and the thrust of the argument is this:

1.  Professional athletes who train at a high level and are paid to perform in a public arena are under more scrutiny and required to live up to higher ethical standards than a normal person looking to lose weight or "get ripped." 

2.  Professional athletes who chose to remain clean don't want to have to line up against a guy on the other team who has 20lbs. of mass from steroid use.  This is why NFL moved much faster than the government to ban and test for a laundry list of substances.

3.  Not doing something about the prevlance of anabolics in pro sports sends the wrong message to kids.  Whatever your stance on this, you must see from all of the kids asking about roids and M1T on the boards that this is true.  There has been a huge media focus on the prevalence of anabolics in baseball, and that has not helped any of us.

If you disagree with any of this, thats fine, but I'm just reporting what I watched, and I literally watched over 8 hours of testimony and debate.  Just realize that all of this is thanks to Major League Baseball.  Every other sporting organization, understanding that it's not the government's job to regulate them, moved quickly to make and enforce their own standards.  MLB has taken the opposite approach, ASKING the government to ban ANDRO and every other Prohormone.


----------



## brodus (Mar 17, 2004)

Just understand that a congressman writing bill is one thing.  There are thousands of bills authored each year that never go anywhere.  At any one time you can find a ton of "alarming" bills, but they usually never even make it to debate on the floor. 

Quickly shuttling a bill to the front lines, or a bill that piggy backs on a large national debate into the limelight is another thing, and that's what we have here.  The Biden bill would probably have faded into obscurity without the MLB fiasco.  Those greedy bastards are now going to take you're right to PHs from you b/c they won't regulate themselves.


----------



## IronSlingah (Mar 17, 2004)

Ok when u say no more raw materials are being shipped into the country(which i know is being said just to boost sales) people could just as easilly MAKE the raw materials inside the US.


----------



## ZECH (Mar 17, 2004)

You cannot make raw powders.....................It all comes from China. The FDA is stopping it from getting in at the borders.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Mar 17, 2004)

Before you know it, I wont be able to wipe my ass without FDA approval.


----------



## IronSlingah (Mar 17, 2004)

So china is the only country in the world who has the cutting-edge technology to create M1T?


----------



## brodus (Mar 17, 2004)

Not to mention there is no way to determine what a raw material is going to be used for.  I doubt that validity of the original statment, to be frank.  

I'm sure there was an instance of a raw material being stopped, or something, but I highly doubt that every raw material is blocked that could be used for making PH supps, as well as other things.  Unless by "raws" GoPro meant raw powders, as in "1-T from China," in which case there could be some intervention, but I am suspect. 

Does anyone here know how many incoming vessels are actually searched by customs? I'll tell you--less than 2%.  This was widely reported in the wake of the 9/11 aftermath.  There is simply too much coming in and too few resources to check.  I doubt that a raw plant powder is more important that cocaine.  There is physically no way to stop shipments--UNLESS it is a specific supplier that has already been warned or targeted, or a specific company that has already been warned by the FDA for making claims it shouldn't...pehaps GoPro knows someone or many people taht would flal into this category.


----------



## brodus (Mar 17, 2004)

> You cannot make raw powders.....................It all comes from China. The FDA is stopping it from getting in at the borders.



This is perpetuation of a myth, and not helping anyone. 

The reason they come from China is because they're made VERY CHEAPLY there.  Of course you can make M1T here, and anything else--but in America we don't use slave labor, so it's more expensive.  China is WAY BEHIND other countires in technical expertise.  That's why companies build their own factories in China.

Again, I highly, highly doubt that every raw material shipped from China is being stopped by the FDA right now.  The mathematics of scale prove this impossible. 

Please site a reference if this claim is to be perpetuated.


----------



## IronSlingah (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by brodus *_
> Not to mention there is no way to determine what a raw material is going to be used for.  I doubt that validity of the original statment, to be frank.
> 
> I'm sure there was an instance of a raw material being stopped, or something, but I highly doubt that every raw material is blocked that could be used for making PH supps, as well as other things.  Unless by "raws" GoPro meant raw powders, as in "1-T from China," in which case there could be some intervention, but I am suspect.
> ...




Yeah i agree with you man i think this is just scare-mongering to make people horde PH/PS to make more money.


----------



## brodus (Mar 17, 2004)

Don't get mad at FDA-->they were the ones who enabled the PH craze in the first place by drawing aline between drugs and supplements. They are already overworked and underfunded, and never wanted to get into regulating supplements.

Get mad at MLB and drug companies.  They're the reason for this.


----------



## brodus (Mar 17, 2004)

Yeah, a simple analysis of the scale of this "report," aside from the fact that it's illegal and completely improbable, renders it moot.  Perhaps a specific supplier who was previously warned and targeted got hung up, but a wide-scale pre-ban enforcement of importation is ridiculous.

Like I said before, I think three-four months to stock up.  Using ephedra as a  baseline, this seems correct.

As far as I can tell, I am the only one who has posted who watched the bill go through congress on CSPAN, so I think I know what I'm talking about, and the attitude of the senators who are involved.  For them, it's all about baseball.  They even many timesmade a clear distinction between one of them wishing to lose weight, and a pro-ball player.


----------



## ZECH (Mar 17, 2004)

Everyone's supply right now comes from China. I doubt there will be very few to make it here if they can?
Too high profile. I guarantee they will crack down harder on this than illegal rec drugs! Too much money involved.


----------



## Power Rabbit (Mar 17, 2004)

im seeing them crack down on supplements....gear for the most part i believe will be  relatively unaffected


----------



## nikegurl (Mar 17, 2004)

if it were possible to make the raw materials here...with the climate the way it is i don't think any supplement companies would see that as a wise business decision.  probably by the time it was up and running the full ban would be in effect.


----------



## ZECH (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by brodus *_
> The reason they come from China is because they're made VERY CHEAPLY there.  Of course you can make M1T here


I know several guys that have to order Kilo's at the time. $10-15k worth. Then it gets held up in customs for months till it clears. Do you think they would do all of this if they could get it here? I don't.


----------



## IronSlingah (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Everyone's supply right now comes from China. I doubt there will be very few to make it here if they can?
> Too high profile. I guarantee they will crack down harder on this than illegal rec drugs! Too much money involved.



Can you explain your reasoning behind this because to me it sounds hard to believe. Theres noway there gonna crack down on M1T harder than rec drugs unless guerrillas down in colombia start dealing M1T powder instead of coccaine to buy AK-47`s to kidnapp Americans.


----------



## brodus (Mar 17, 2004)

> Everyone's supply right now comes from China. I doubt there will be very few to make it here if they can?
> Too high profile. I guarantee they will crack down harder on this than illegal rec drugs! Too much money involved.



Yes, everything comes from China right now, but where do you get your data that "very few" can make it in the U.S.? That is just false.  Anyone with a college degree in Organic Chemistry and access to VIDA and a lab can make M1T .  Where do you think the patents for all of this stuff come from? Not China!

More importantly, does it even matter if raws are being stopped?  I mean, more PH products have been added to "in stock" lists at every retailer in the last month than I have ever seen.  It seems to me that there is enough to last until the ban goes into effect. I expect that the smart retailers have anticipated this, and have no need to worry about raws, becuase the supply will taper off as the ban comes into effect. 

And what data do you have to back up your "guarantee" about the crack down being more intense than on "hard drugs?" I think this is false, too.  From our perspective, yes, it seems insane, but that's because the demand for illegal recreational drugs is many, many, many times higher than the demand for M1T or other PHs.  

Bruce was on here all ecstatic about selling 500 bottles of M-Dien.  Contrast that to the hundreds of SEMI TRUCKS full of illegal rec. drugs that make it into the country.  Contrast that to the fact that even college weed dealers have a higher demand for their product.

Just look at the $ and resources spent on stopping illegal recreational drugs.  There is no way that the PH ban is going to even garner 1/10th of that funding.

All they're going to do is "crack down" on people openly making and selling substances they deem to be scheduled.  They are not going to patrol borders with armed guards and drug sniffing dogs, nor will they send commandos into foreign countries over a lousy bottle of M1T.  They do all of these things for recreational drugs, so to say the "Crack down" is going to be worse is false.


----------



## ZECH (Mar 17, 2004)

It's all stemming from sports right now.............MLB, Olympic committee, ect. They don't want an unfair advantage. That is what started all of this. With all the money these big corporations have, they will get what they want. They will continue to pressure the government, like they have been doing and get all PH's and steriods almost to the extinction point. Sure there may be several UG labs, but it will be so damn expensive, you won't be able to buy it.


----------



## nikegurl (Mar 17, 2004)

Question for you dg806...designersupps.com told me yesterday that they were working on a new compound (M4OHN) which they think would be "even better suited for a women, it has an even lower androgenic profile as well as a higher anabolic ratio."

That's all I know about it right now.

In light of the raw materials info in this thread...Do you think the fact that it's a new compound they're still working on means that it won't ever make it to market now?


----------



## brodus (Mar 17, 2004)

> I know several guys that have to order Kilo's at the time. $10-15k worth. Then it gets held up in customs for months till it clears. Do you think they would do all of this if they could get it here? I don't.



Dude, it's a money issue.  Bruce and others have said it themselves.  Of course it could be made here.  It's a question of using slave labor and cheap factories, or U.S. factories and scientists who demand to be paid well for their services and education.  

Furthermore, to you or I a kilo may seem like a lot, but to a drug company or manufacturer, its NOTHING, they waste more than that every produciton cycle.  

The overall demand for things like M1T is very LOW, believe it or not, and so no one would buy raw powder at the level where it becomes affordable to produce, which is in the thousands of pounds. 

Realize that major manufacturers don't start their machines for an order of a mere kilo, or even 20 or 50 kilos.  It costs more for them to changeover and setup their machinery than they would make selling a less than several box car containers full. 

So you have an overall cost benefit to China, and also a handful of companies who will produce "short runs" of chemicals there, which is why they supply the world with raws.  But this doesn't mean they're the only ones who can make raws.


----------



## brodus (Mar 17, 2004)

> It's all stemming from sports right now.............MLB, Olympic committee, ect. They don't want an unfair advantage. That is what started all of this



CORRECT-A-MUNDO!

FDA and the Federal Government (congress) both said they were reluctant to do this! Remeber, they were the ones who crafted the law to give supp. unregulated freedom.

Thank the mega-rich athletes of the MLB who said it's not fair that you and I can use Andro and they can't!!!

You can also thank teenagers and unscrupulous parents and stores who let kids use this stuff.


----------



## Flex (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> I guarantee they will crack down harder on this than illegal rec drugs!



dude, the war on drugs has been going on since the '80's, and guess what.......the U.S. is LOSING


----------



## Flex (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Sure there may be several UG labs, but it will be so damn expensive, you won't be able to buy it.



bro, don't forget steroids are LEGAL in many otehr countries, and manufactured all over the world. 

in fact, i've seen juice that's been both imported into the U.S. already made and shit that's been made right here in the U.S.


----------



## ZECH (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by brodus *_
> Dude, it's a money issue.  Bruce and others have said it themselves.  Of course it could be made here.  It's a question of using slave labor and cheap factories, or U.S. factories and scientists who demand to be paid well for their services and education.
> 
> Furthermore, to you or I a kilo may seem like a lot, but to a drug company or manufacturer, its NOTHING, they waste more than that every produciton cycle.
> ...


True, but it's the small business owner like 1fast who it affects, not the big corps.


----------



## ZECH (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> bro, don't forget steroids are LEGAL in many otehr countries, and manufactured all over the world.
> 
> in fact, i've seen juice that's been both imported into the U.S. already made and shit that's been made right here in the U.S.


Yes some steriods are made here by big corps. because there is a need for them. No need for PH at this point. But the crackdown will cover all. And there are no big companies like the Olympics and MLB wanting rec drugs gone. If they did you probably wouldn't see them as much.


----------



## ZECH (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by nikegurl *_
> Question for you dg806...designersupps.com told me yesterday that they were working on a new compound (M4OHN) which they think would be "even better suited for a women, it has an even lower androgenic profile as well as a higher anabolic ratio."
> 
> That's all I know about it right now.
> ...


I'm sure he has some now, but how much I don't know.


----------



## brodus (Mar 17, 2004)

The discussion wasn't about who it effects, it was about your claim that you can't make raw materials for PHs in the U.S. which is false.

YES, it is shitty that PHs will be banned soon, and YES it effects the people we all love to support who run quality operations like 1fast400.  It doesn't effect big companies at all b/c they are aware of how small the demand for PHs is, and don't dabble in them.  

But I don't think there is going to be a drought on the supply before the ban goes into effect due to some invisible border patrol that stops every raw material shipment from China.  In fact, I'd bet a lot on that fact.  Further, the bill hasn't been finalized, there is no list, and we don't even know the validty of GoPros claim.  A lot has to happen before all PHs are pulled from online retail.


----------



## brodus (Mar 17, 2004)

Seaking of supply and demand, have you guys seen how many steroids are sold on eBay?

I haven't seen a single auction get pulled yet. 

Before we freak out about the PH drought and fill VPXs bank account tonight, we may want to think logically about how many companies supply these supps, how many FDA officers actually are available to police this situation, and how many overseas suppliers there are.

Last, with something like M1T or M-Dien, you could buy enough for two or three years for not a lot of $.  That's why I'm not worried, and that's what I intend to do.  If that doesn't do enough for me, I can always get real juice, which is always readily available!


----------



## ZECH (Mar 17, 2004)

I never said you couldn't make them, just that if you did, you couldn't afford them. And the supply could stop today. When the andro ban talk ignited, most people thought it meant androstenedione. They could include all andro and halt it immediately. No sells period. We don't know what the government will do.


----------



## brodus (Mar 17, 2004)

Well, I spent 8 hours watching the debate on the senate floor, and I think I do have an idea of what they will do.  The list does include quite a bit more than just plain old andro.  Again, using ephedra as a baseline, we have three months to four months.  If you can think of a more relevant example, please do, but the ephedra ban is about as similar in scope and timing, and we had three + months from when it was announced. 

Also, no offense, but this is what you said:



> You cannot make raw powders



That's why I responded.

You didn't say anything about the economies of scale, I did, at length. 

And in regards to supply, my point is that I feel very confident that there is enough supply already on shelves to fill the demand for three months even if the raws are stopped (and it was possible to do so pre-ban, which I absolutely think is false), so I'm not worried.  

BUT LETS HOPE WE'RE ALL WRONG AND WE CAN BUY PHS ALL YEAR!!

Have a good workout everyone!

--J


----------



## ZECH (Mar 17, 2004)

Fair..............I stand corrected. I should have added "if you want to be able to afford it? I know I couldn't.
They are wanting to make andro immediate. Until the supps companies can prove it is not harmful. And in "dione", it is harmful. If they do, you won't be able to buy what supply anyone has.


----------



## gopro (Mar 17, 2004)

For brodus:

Big Pharma Assumes Control of United States Government:

Please advise all of our esteemed VPX patrons that it is now official that the Feds have united in a joint task force, i.e., DEA, FDA, and US Customs and are stopping all shipments of pro-hormones and pro-steroids coming into the United States of America. Funny thing is, last time I checked, prohormones/pro-steroids were legal dietary supplements protected by the current law, DSHEA! Big Pharma has assumed control of the United States of America. 

This statement came from Jack Owoc, CEO of VPX. He has confirmed to me that this is true. We are all hopeful that this is either innacurate or going to change. Jack is a little more than interested in this of course, and this will greatly affect business. I will post more as I learn it, but DO NOT question my purposes. I am supplying my friends with information from the inside that they may not be privy to...that is all.


----------



## Power Rabbit (Mar 17, 2004)

We need someone big to overturn it...joe shmoes like me writing letters to washington is going to do nothing... GP, I hope VPX has a lawyer or two that could possibly bring the fight about this...

Again I really think its a violation of law to stop its importation if its legal...Just need to find someone willing to sue or fight it out...


----------



## nikegurl (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Power Rabbit *_
> We need someone big to overturn it...joe shmoes like me writing letters to washington is going to do nothing... GP, I hope VPX has a lawyer or two that could possibly bring the fight about this...
> 
> Again I really think its a violation of law to stop its importation if its legal...Just need to find someone willing to sue or fight it out...




...and fast!


----------



## brodus (Mar 17, 2004)

GoPro--

Thanks for the info.

So you know, I wasn't at all calling into question your motivations or purposes for posting.  I actually just pointed out that your close association with a supplier of said supps would privy you to information about specific importations, but that I found it hard to believe, from a physical enforcement standpoint, that a wide-scale material stop at the point import would be possible.  

I appreciate all of your help on these forums. 

Like I said, we can thank, to a very large extene, Major League Baseball for this current uproar and ban.  Raw material stop or not, though, I am quite confident that I will be able to stock up over the next three months.  Let's hope I am right!


----------



## Arnold (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Power Rabbit *_
> GP, I hope VPX has a lawyer or two that could possibly bring the fight about this...



last I remember VPX is not even involved with the www.usfa.biz who fights for this thing.


----------



## JerseyDevil (Mar 17, 2004)

Twin Peak's a lawyer.... maybe he can enlighten us on the legality of it.  That said, what big brother whats, big brother gets.


----------



## brodus (Mar 17, 2004)

I guess no one has read my posts.

"Big Brother" never wanted to go here, but was pushed to do so by MLB poor actions, large drug companies, and public outcry following sensational media reports.

The FDA specifically drew a line at supplments b/c they don't have the resources or desire to police them.  

The leader of the committee on steroids in sports, John McCain, publicly said in the hearings that congress shouldn't have to get involved in this issue.

MLB and drug companies say it's the government's job to change the law.

This is what is happening.


----------



## brodus (Mar 17, 2004)

The problem we run into is that if PHs are to be regulated to prohibit sale to minors and regulated for purity/quality, then they would become much more expensive to offset cost of FDA testing, and it would take YEARS to get new compunds to market.  In other words, only major drug companies could afford to make them.

I would like to see some kind of middle ground approach, but I am afraid my voice is not lot enough.  

We must all agree that PHs are strong substances, much different than Kava Kava or something, but also shouldn't be illegal.  How to make this the law is the question.


----------



## gopro (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> last I remember VPX is not even involved with the www.usfa.biz who fights for this thing.



There is a specific reason for this.

People continue to ask what VPX is doing prevent "Andro" from being banned. So, here is our answer. When we had a fighting chance, the USFA collaborated with another pro hormone company to push an agenda that was strictly the agenda of one supplement manufacturer and contrary to the myriad of other supplement companies that had a 1-Testosterone and/or other  NON-1-andro and and 4-diol products in their line of supplementation. Attorneys for the USFA were heard and documented by VPX detectives at the Arnold Classic as saying, 
"who does Owoc think he is introducing 1-TEST to the market" and they erroneously concluded with their gross
misunderstanding of the law as well deficiency in chemistry and biochemistry that, "1-Testosterone is a steroid". 1-TEST is no more of a steroid than DHEA because it's a naturally occurring hormone and it's never been sold as a drug before and is therefore, legal according to DSHEA. The USFA feared Owoc's 1-TEST product because it circumvented the need to use the 1-andro and 4diol precursors because it was 10 times more potent and had none side effects associated with these other inferior andro's. This obviously threw quite a wrench into the plan of the USFA and its cohorts which was to make all prohoromones illegal except those covered under patent which were 1-andro and 4-diol. 

The thing that surprised VPX was that all the other supplement companies were agreeing to this until VPX single handedly exposed this conspiracy and went against their self-serving agenda. There's way more to it than just this, but the point is that if we worked together to save all pro-horomones and all pro-steroids, we wouldn't be in the uncomprimising position that we're now in. It's the selfishness of one man in this industry and the collaboration of the USFA that is the sole cause of why andro is now being banned. United, we did NOT stand, and now we will fall!


----------



## Arnold (Mar 17, 2004)

okay that's fine...

VPX is a pretty big boy on the block as far as a supplement company, correct?

so, what is VPX doing to help in this fight?


----------



## willus72 (Mar 17, 2004)

just wondering but for all you legal people (prince, etc) what will you do if or when they are illegal. wil you continue to buy illegally, will you go for bigger and better since its illegal anyways, or will you go all natural? im sure i know the answer but just wondering?  
as for the raw products, im sure someone somewhere will find a fina or syno-like conversion to get the chemicals, as well as illegally obtaining them, IF its worth it(which i dont think it will be). the only thing i can forsee changing with this law is... lower abundance, price increase, and real gear usage going way up.  im sure the fda has already thought o this and has plans to counter it but like someone earlier said if they cant get the heroin out of highschools i dont see them stopping ANYTHING!


----------



## Arnold (Mar 17, 2004)

I will stock up, that should last at least two years, who knows after that.


----------



## ZECH (Mar 17, 2004)

I agree 100% with GP on this. That is exactly what happened. And just so people will know I have never bought a VPX product, but I admire them for standing up for what they thought was right. One person tried to sacrifice everything for the the sake of 1 or 2 compounds.


----------



## Arnold (Mar 17, 2004)

that's great, but what is VPX doing to help with the fight?

If the answer is nothing, then shame on them, and they can go cry in a corner when their profits go done the tubes.


----------



## ZECH (Mar 17, 2004)

I don't know?? I don't think there is anything anyone can do, much less one company. It is not as big as tobacco or alcohol, so it falls on deaf ears!


----------



## Arnold (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> I don't know?? I don't think there is anything anyone can do, much less one company. It is not as big as tobacco or alcohol, so it falls on deaf ears!



What?



If we all just sit back in life and say "there is nothing we can do" where would we be today?

A company as big as VPX can get together with other big supplement companies, higher lawyers, fight the goddamn government!!!


----------



## ZECH (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> 
> A company as big as VPX can get together with other big supplement companies, higher lawyers, fight the goddamn government!!!


That is exactly the problem. Too many egos and they can't agree. Each is too greedy. So, everything will get banned.


----------



## JerseyDevil (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> That is exactly the problem. Too many egos and they can't agree. Each is too greedy. So, everything will get banned.


That's it!  The supplement industry needs to remember the term "divide and conquer".


----------



## RCfootball87 (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_ The FDA is stopping it from getting in at the borders.


Yeah, just like the DEA stopped columbian and bolivian cocaine from getting in, and mexican weed, and heroine from the golden crescent.  They can't stop shit.  One of two things is going to happen here. 1. The DEA will have to expand resources, probably costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars to try to stop these so called "raw materials" from getting in. or 2. With the economy in the shits and an election coming up, the DEA won't get any more funding and this will divert some of their resources away from stopping all the other drugs from getting in.  Number 1 sounds like a loss for anyone who doesn't work for the DEA, FDA, or a local police force, number 2 sounds like a minor win from people smuggling other drugs into the country.


----------



## IronSlingah (Mar 17, 2004)

Bottom line even if it gets banned months from now the raw materials are still gonna get into the country.


----------



## gopro (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> okay that's fine...
> 
> VPX is a pretty big boy on the block as far as a supplement company, correct?
> ...



There is no more fight...its done. VPX is accepting it and moving onto bigger and better things.


----------



## tomas101 (Mar 17, 2004)

ya i dont understand how something legal can be siezed?? makes no sense unless i missed something while reading all this...isnt what they are doing illegal?


----------



## Arnold (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> There is no more fight...its done. VPX is accepting it and moving onto bigger and better things.



Bullshit, rolling over and playing dead is exactly what the Iraqi people did, that is why they had a dictator in charge for so many years. They were like zombies over there, they felt helpless, powerless, they just accepted whatever they were told. 

That is not what America is about! Even if we fight and lose, at least we stood up and fought the battle. What the hell is this country coming to.  

I think we are all in need of a serious fucking history lesson! 

You know how many black people died in this country standing up for what they believed in? Martin Luther King died for this exact thing! He said we will not accept the way the government is treating us, black people were beaten, killed, murdered, spit, on shit on, but they KEPT ON STANDING UP TO THE GOVERNMENT AND FIGHTING!!! THEY DID NOT GIVE UP!!! 

FUUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!

THIS SHIT PISSES ME OFF!!!!

WAKE THE FUCK UP PEOPLE!

So, what is next? If this shit passes the FDA can pull fucking creatine off the shelves! Maybe the VPX companies better start realizing how far this can go before they find themsleves bankrupt.

Moving on to bigger things...what a crock of shit. There is nothing bigger than this, this is it! This could be the god damned end to it all Eric!!!

I apologize, but I am so freaking passionate about subjects like this, I am about ready to devote my life to fighting the government and corrupt political shit that they are shoving down our throats as the rich get richer.


----------



## X Ring (Mar 17, 2004)

I voted republican so I can do what I want w/o the government telling me what I can or cant do.  Guess that didnt help and if it did help I dont dare to think what it would be like on the other side of the coin.  Law school here I come


----------



## Arnold (Mar 17, 2004)

we need a god damned revolution....that is all there is to it.

and I am being serious.

our government is so fucking corrupt it sickens me.

War on Drugs? LMFAO!!!! Every other commercial on TV is about a new damned drug! oh wait a minute those drugs are okay, despite the host of side effects, seeing that the government is heavily supported by the pharmacuetical industry.


----------



## Arnold (Mar 17, 2004)

Oh, and my last word on this...

FUCK EVERY SUPPLEMENT COMPANY OUT THERE THAT IS NOT SINKING EVERY EXTRA DIME INTO FIGHTING THIS THING!


----------



## 100%legalmass (Mar 17, 2004)

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/news/2004/hhs_031104.html


----------



## Arnold (Mar 17, 2004)

well, at least we will stil have 1-test.


----------



## 100%legalmass (Mar 17, 2004)

So 1 test amd stuff in that nature should still be advailable ????


----------



## Arnold (Mar 17, 2004)

I believe right now they're focus is "andro" products, you have to remember they're idiots, they know as much as the general public does. We can thank Mark Mcguire for most of this.


----------



## willus72 (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Bullshit, rolling over and playing dead is exactly what the Iraqi people did, that is why they had a dictator in charge for so many years. They were like zombies over there, they felt helpless, powerless, they just accepted whatever they were told.
> 
> That is not what America is about! Even if we fight and lose, at least we stood up and fought the battle. What the hell is this country coming to.
> ...




^^^^ that was the most fucking punk rock thing i have ever read on any bodybuilding forum. i agree with you 110% prince.  fuck it lets give them our freedom of speech wihile were at it!  this country was established by fighting a government, and now we are turning into the same goddam thing that we fought so hard to claim our independance from in the first place. the problem is that there are no real people left in this country , no one that will fight for there rights. i mean shit, well it doesnt matter what i mean because nobody that is in a position to make a differance cares. fuck it, down with democracy, up with communism.


----------



## I'm Trying (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Oh, and my last word on this...
> 
> FUCK EVERY SUPPLEMENT COMPANY OUT THERE THAT IS NOT SINKING EVERY EXTRA DIME INTO FIGHTING THIS THING!



AMEN brotha!!


----------



## cappo5150 (Mar 17, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> 
> Moving on to bigger things...what a crock of shit. There is nothing bigger than this, this is it! This could be the god damned end to it all Eric!!!



Thats what I was thinking, what could possibly be bigger than this?


----------



## brodus (Mar 18, 2004)

> War on Drugs? LMFAO!!!! Every other commercial on TV is about a new damned drug! oh wait a minute those drugs are okay, despite the host of side effects, seeing that the government is heavily supported by the pharmacuetical industry.



HELL YEAH!  Preach on, brother, you are right!  It's so hypocritical it makes me sick.  Sometimes you see an "anti-drug" ad followed by a pharmaceutical ad.  I am truly sickened by it all.  You know, there are other countries in which direct-to-consumer drug marketing is illegal.  We, of course, are not one of them, yet we spend millions convincing normal people they have problems and need prescription drugs. 

You don't even want to know my opinion about what justice should befall these greedy bastards...yes, it would make us all laugh, but I would feel guilty saying it.

That, of course, is the difference between "us" and "them"

We have a conscience.

And the fact that supp. companies have not united to support the cause is proof to how much they care about your and my rights.  Play all the semantic and history games you want, the fact that they havenot formed a legitimate lobbying group shows you they are more selfish and greedy than anything.  This effectively prooves the governments' point, to a degree.


Our government is fully controlled by corporate interests and it makes me vomit and want no part in it.  A revolution is the only thing that would unhinge the entrenched interests that have control.

We are the new Babylon, people. It scares me.


----------



## brodus (Mar 18, 2004)

Okay, since the gloves are off...

FUCK PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL!!

Those GREEDY FUCKS are the reason we are in this fiasco.

EVERY OTHER SPORT took steps to address PH and other performance enhancing supps, but MLB refuses, pushing this to the forefront of debate. 

I used to be a huge MLB fan...collected cards, went to games in Chicago, played little league, etc.  Now I despise American Baseball.  Those lazy bit$(@ get paid more in one year than I may make in a lifetime, AND have caused PHs to be banned.  I can't express any more disgust without offending people.


----------



## x_muscle (Mar 18, 2004)

ergophram manufacture their own PH they dont get it from china.


----------



## Twin Peak (Mar 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> For brodus:
> 
> Big Pharma Assumes Control of United States Government:
> ...



As I discussed at length on Avant, it is not so clear cut that PHs and PSs are legal dietary supplements.  Not at all.


----------



## Dale Mabry (Mar 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> 
> Martin Luther King died for this exact thing!




Martin Luther King died fighting the PH Ban?  

If any of you think that this will stop with andros you are sorely mistaken.  I seem to remember a few years back some high schoool wrestlers died sucking weight and they were coincidentally taking creatine which caused an uproar.  It is this kind of isolated incident that gets things started.


----------



## gopro (Mar 18, 2004)

The owner of VPX and every other supplement company will do as they wish. You have the right to write letters, scream in the streets, take out ads, and buy some time on a local TV station to rant and rave about all of this.

Personally, I wouldn't mind if all supplements were taken off the market and everyone had to build their body's with just training and food. THEN we'd see who the true hard workers are and how far the human body can go all on its own. 

But thats just me.


----------



## Twin Peak (Mar 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> The owner of VPX and every other supplement company will do as they wish. You have the right to write letters, scream in the streets, take out ads, and buy some time on a local TV station to rant and rave about all of this.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't mind if all supplements were taken off the market and everyone had to build their body's with just training and food. THEN we'd see who the true hard workers are and how far the human body can go all on its own.
> ...



Good point, Eric.  Because we all know that no one in bodybuilding uses illegal substances.


----------



## Arnold (Mar 18, 2004)

Hey, TP it would be greatly appreciated if you could lend some professional "legal" input here? 

I know you say you have discussed it elsewhere, but could you post something for us here....

Eric, I hear you on the building our bodies naturally, but it's ironic that you make that statement when you're currently employed by a supplement company.


----------



## gopro (Mar 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Good point, Eric.  Because we all know that no one in bodybuilding uses illegal substances.



Yeah, and I hope THEY are eradicated as well.


----------



## gopro (Mar 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> 
> Eric, I hear you on the building our bodies naturally, but it's ironic that you make that statement when you're currently employed by a supplement company.



And your point?  

Hey, if I was let go tomorrow I have a dozen other things I could do. Its only a job....well, its a very very good job, but still, I don't plan on being here forever anyway.


----------



## Arnold (Mar 18, 2004)

no point, just kind of weird...but that is true, just a job.... I agree you could always get another.


----------



## Twin Peak (Mar 18, 2004)

Here is a sampling of an exchange between Pat Arnold and I on the topic.  While not a lawyer, Pat is very knowledgable on legal issues related to the industry -- at least in my experience.



> ChemicalPA,Mar 16 2004, 10:06 AM
> the way to fight it would be to show it is in the food supply, then when they bitch and moan about safety you can fight that too (cuz the burden of proof would then be on the FDA, not the manufacturer).  Due to adandoment of the USFA by its orignal supporters (which were limited to begin with) the financial support for fighting prohormone legislation in congress has dwindled down to a trickle though, so there are no funds to support such a battle.  It is a shame, becuase such a stand could mean so so much down the road.   I don't wanna go into this anymore, i know i sound like a broken record





> Par Deus,Mar 16 2004, 11:42 AM
> The law and the FDA's position, as it was laid out in the other thread, seems to indicate that being in the food supply only makes it qualify as a new dietary supplement, but that you still have to get approval from the FDA if it was not grandfathered in (i.e. in supps pre-1994), and this requires evidence showing the new ingredient should be safe -- i.e. burden of proof switched to us.






> Twin Peak
> Almost.
> 
> In that other thread we established that a dietary ingredient needed to be:
> ...






> What is "as an article used as food"?  Does that mean that andro must be food?  Or does it just mean that it must be present in food?
> 
> For example, lets say green tea was not market as a dietary supplement prior to 1994.  It would then be a New Dietary Ingredient.  But it could be used in a Dietary Supplement with the Supplement being adulterated because "present in the food supply as an article used
> for food in a form in which the food...."
> ...






> Pat takes the position that "present in the food supply" satisfies option 2 above.
> 
> FDA (with respect to andro) takes the position that (2) means that it is sold as a dietary ingredient in the same form and the same dosage, as it is used for food.




I discuss it at length here:

http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=1&t=8850&hl=dshea&

and here:


http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=1&t=8717&hl=dshea&


----------



## Arnold (Mar 18, 2004)

cool, thanks...will read that later...


----------



## Twin Peak (Mar 18, 2004)

Focus on the definitions of:

* Dietary Supplement
* Dietary Ingredient
* New Dietary Ingredient

I'll bet half the products on the market aren't legal.  I think the second thread has the exact language from the federal statute.

You may also want to read:

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/ds-oview.html#what

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/ds-oview.html#regulate

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/dietsupp.html


----------



## ZECH (Mar 18, 2004)

One of the funniest things I've read................

QUOTE (larmenta @ Mar 11 2004, 09:52 AM) 
It is coming soon, so really all of us Supp companies need to get together and fight for ours and our consumers rights. Also, all the consumers need to flood their senetors offices with letters opposing this..  

ChemicalPA.....
we tried that. petty jealousy and egos ruined everything

we are in an industry that is 5% decent folks and 95% wackos, egomaniacs, bipolars, and downright evil motherfuckers

wait a minute.....5% is probably a gross overestimate


----------



## Twin Peak (Mar 18, 2004)

Indeed.


----------



## ZECH (Mar 18, 2004)

After doing some reading, all the companies that got letters to stop selling androstenedione, has 15 days to reply(8 or 9 have past)


----------



## Twin Peak (Mar 18, 2004)

Pretty standard cease and decist letter.

Basically, they will need to state what action they plan on taking.


----------



## ZECH (Mar 18, 2004)

Do you know if any plan on fighting it?


----------



## Twin Peak (Mar 18, 2004)

I haven't heard anything and I would doubt it since its just the dione (for now).

Again, as per my comments above, I don't see how they can fight it.


----------



## SJ69 (Mar 18, 2004)

Would m-1-t be included in the ban?


----------



## ZECH (Mar 18, 2004)

There is no ban YET. Just androstenedione being removed.


----------



## maniclion (Mar 18, 2004)

Just write to your congressmen and tell them not to ban it cause it will make their dick bigger and harder, start selling it as a male enhancement product.  You know their all suckers for that shit.

I guarantee if they had a pill that made their fat ass wives thirty years younger and sex fiends with side effects of headaches and extreme abdominal cramps, they wouldn't budge to ban it.


----------



## Arnold (Mar 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by maniclion *_
> Just write to your congressmen and tell them not to ban it cause it will make their dick bigger and harder, start selling it as a male enhancement product.  You know their all suckers for that shit.


----------



## Twin Peak (Mar 18, 2004)

Please see my post above, this is not a BAN (like the bill in Congress) this is the FDA seeking to enforce the law (as it interprets the law) as to ONLY (for now) androstendione.


----------



## GAmuscle26 (Mar 18, 2004)

I was just wondering why the supplment companies wouldn't come together and challenge these hideous bans..but Gopro explained it in his post.

It would be nice if they could set aside EGOs to benefit the industry..LOL..but then I woke up..


----------



## GAmuscle26 (Mar 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by brodus *_
> HELL YEAH!  Preach on, brother, you are right!  It's so hypocritical it makes me sick.  Sometimes you see an "anti-drug" ad followed by a pharmaceutical ad.  I am truly sickened by it all.  You know, there are other countries in which direct-to-consumer drug marketing is illegal.  We, of course, are not one of them, yet we spend millions convincing normal people they have problems and need prescription drugs.
> .



Big pharma and it's partnership w/ the Feds pisses me off to no end. Think about it, effective and somewhat affordable supplments that contain ECA stacks are banned..but the FDA will approve weight loss aids such as Fen Phen, so big pharma can rip off a clueless and desperate public. I'm not going to scream bc Prince and other have done good a job of it on the thread.  

Not only are we losing our rights to do what we want with our bodies, the government is forcing us to line the pockets of Big pharma!!


----------



## PreMier (Mar 18, 2004)

This is why I hope to move to Europe when im older.... To be FREE!


----------



## willus72 (Mar 18, 2004)

^^^^and to think thousands of people lost their lives trying to get away from them to be free, lol

isnt it ironic?


----------



## PreMier (Mar 18, 2004)

Very much so.  I imagine the USA turning into the govt that is in the movie "Escape from LA"  They will suppress the people, and when someone even swears in public, they will be put in jail or to death.


----------



## SJ69 (Mar 18, 2004)

We are still somewhat better off than the socialist gov'ts of Europe.


----------



## RCfootball87 (Mar 18, 2004)

"There is no proven safe substitute for hard work and training when it comes to improving athletic skill; we will do all we can to protect Americans against companies that seek to profit by trying to convince consumers otherwise.???  -FDA

The best way they could protect me would be to disband completely.


----------



## Pepper (Mar 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by SJ69 *_
> We are still somewhat better off than the socialist gov'ts of Europe.



We are the only socialist country that refuses to admit it.


----------



## RCfootball87 (Mar 18, 2004)

o and while we're at it......FUCK the D.E.A.


----------



## PreMier (Mar 18, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Pepper *_
> We are the only socialist country that refuses to admit it.



Ah you beat me to it


----------



## willus72 (Mar 18, 2004)

i always picture judge dread, with the sea shells, lol


----------



## IronSlingah (Mar 19, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by RCfootball87 *_
> o and while we're at it......FUCK the D.E.A.



What do u mean fuck the D.E.A?  my uncle is in it and thats what i want to do aswell. You shuddent blame them they just enforce the laws they dont make them. Its like getting mad at a soilder in a war instead of the politician who sent him there.


----------



## Flex (Mar 19, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by IronSlingah *_
> You shuddent blame them they just enforce the laws they dont make them. Its like getting mad at a soilder in a war instead of the politician who sent him there.



exactly 

its the dumbfuck politicains that don't know shit. they get their "sources" from stupid doctors and media opinion (shit like Sportscenter that makes steroids/ph's such a big deal). a doctor told me the other day to stay away from creatine cuz it's "terrible" for you. 

this is exactly the reason i hate Bush. not to turn this into another Political thread, but honestly, why don't they focus on the important things going on, such as terrorisim, the b.s. war in Iraq and our shitty economy, and not on bodybuilders that take something as petty as andro.


----------



## ZECH (Mar 19, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by IronSlingah *_
> Its like getting mad at a soilder in a war instead of the politician who sent him there.


Soldiers volunteer to do service. It's not like they are going in against their wishes!!


----------



## brodus (Mar 19, 2004)

> Please see my post above, this is not a BAN (like the bill in Congress) this is the FDA seeking to enforce the law (as it interprets the law) as to ONLY (for now) androstendione.



This is very important for all to recognize.

1-test and other substances are not clearly legal, even under the current law, and the FDA is enforcing their interpretation of the law only against -dione right now.

On a SEPARATE FRONT is the Biden bill and congressional summit, which seeks to redefine these supps as scheduled (i.e. illegal to buy w/o preseciption/FDA approval).  This bill is very broad and precisely identifes hundreds of "andros" and steroid precusors, including all of the methyls and more. 

In regards to this bill, which piggybacked the MLB fiasco and Bush's public statements to gain national attention, congress themselves have said they don't wish to spend a lot of time on it.  There is a chance it may never make it to a vote, precisely BECAUSE there are more important matters on the table and it's an election year.

I still stand by my three-month to four-month prediction as a minimum of time we have to order and stock up.


----------



## topolo (Mar 19, 2004)

i agree with you brodus, four months minimum.

btw......would the ban affect 6 oxo???????


----------



## brodus (Mar 19, 2004)

Here's what the fed has to say:

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/andrlist.html

And this is separate from the "ban," which may or may not occur.  Stocking up should take place over the next four months, no reason to dump the credit card all at once.

This is a general warning, with no proposed consequences, and only applying to Andro, and only sent to the listed manufacturers.


----------



## brodus (Mar 19, 2004)

Also, here's what Bruce Kellner has to say:



> Bruce Kneller: I think all of the steroidals, prohormones/prosteroids, whatever the "catch word" of the day is??????legal steroids" if you will???if they impart any direct androgenic or anabolic effect, either by themselves or by a first order metabolite, well they are all done in the next 12 months maybe 18 months tops.



I think his assessment is correct, and relevant.

(this quote was from an M1T/ProHormone roundtable:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/par39.htm)


----------



## PreMier (Mar 19, 2004)

Where was that quote pulled from?


----------



## brodus (Mar 19, 2004)

I just added the citation to my post.


----------



## PreMier (Mar 19, 2004)

Ok, thats what I thought.  I just read that article the other day


----------



## topolo (Mar 19, 2004)

hello.......6oxo????


----------



## brodus (Mar 19, 2004)

Curently the Biden bill does not list androstenitrione (6-OXO) as a substance, but of course the bill is a ways to reach the vote, and can be revised.  Since they are aware of "designer" efforts to skirt the law, they could add some provision in the bill to ban similar substances, or entire chemical classes.  Also, this isn't the only bill in congress addressing these substances.

To read the actual bill go here:

http://thomas.loc.gov/

and enter this in the "bill number":

S. 1780


HOWEVER....there are provisions for some prohormones to remain legal if they are proven safe.  Of course, this is expensive, but if the supplement industry BELIEVED they could meet the standard for proof, they would have already aligned to fund a study. 

Their lack of action is a cloaked admission of guilt, in my analysis, because surely their entrepreneuial spirit and greed would outweigh everything if they were truly confident of the safety of things like Methyl-1 Test.  

The fact that they throw in the towel so quickly says a lot, not just to us, but also to a Congress who is asking, "Why shouldn't we ban these substances," looking as much for a unified voice from the supplment industry as anyone.  It says to the senators exactly what they're afraid of-->that these substances are produced by fly-by-night companies who don't really believe their products are safe.  The lack of a unified response from the "industry" is a huge deal.

You can read posts from people claiming to be lawyers, etc, but why aren't these people at the hearings? I think we're seeing just what kind of people run many of these companies, and where their heart's are. 

(I realize that not everyone in the "industry" is morally corrupt, but even leaders of these companies says it's 95% shiesters, so ...)


----------



## Testosterone (Dec 5, 2004)

FDA to BAN prostitution? because it "Helps Spreads" HIV....


----------

