# Advice on a 13 week personal challenge



## phoenix05 (Aug 12, 2009)

Hi everyone. It's been a long time since i was on here last. In that time a lot of stuff has happened, including me moving to the states in around 14-15 weeks.

Right now I'm in Australia and am trying to get in really good shape before i leave. Basically i want to get ripped. I don't much care how much i can lift, or anything like that, i just want to bulk up a bit and lose the fat.

I've just started the program outlined in the "Hard Body Plan" from a men's health book. It seems like it's pretty thorough and makes a lot of sense, but i wanted to see if this was the best way to go.

Firstly here are my stats :

Chest: 41 inches
Forearm: 11 Inches
Waist: 39 inches
Thigh: 24.5 inches
Hip: 39.5 inches
Calve: 16.5 inches
Biceps: 13.5 inches
Neck: 14.5 inches

I like how my legs are right now. They are far stronger than i need them to be. They are big enough and i don't particularly want them any bigger, however my upper body stinks. I don't have a chest at all, and i really want to increase the overall size of my upper body. At the same time i want to cut up as much as possible. On my last BF % i was over 21%. I think closer to 25%. I weigh 210 pounds right now and really want to get down to around 185. 

So keeping all of this in mind what would you recommend? I'm trying to decide whether to bulk up as much as i can for around 11-12 weeks and then cut up after that, or try and lose the fat as well as adding the lean muscle. What would you do? 


The plan I'm on right now suggests doing 3 sets of 6-10 reps. The workout is 4 days a week with around 13 exercises each session. I won't go into each move they suggest, but from most people's opinions it seems to be pretty good. They also have it broken down, so that if you want to personolize it, you can. For example for me, i might not do any leg sessions, but add an extra upper body session per week.

The diet seems pretty good. For weight loss they want me to eat 2755 calories, and to add weight i need to eat 3855. Which way should i be going? I definitely need to lose some fat, but i don't want to do it at the detriment of actually adding the size I'm after also.

From some research my goals for the 12 weeks are:

Chest: 46 inches
Forearm: 13.5 Inches
Waist: 32 inches
Thigh: 24.5 inches
Hip: 37 inches
Calve: 16 inches
Biceps: 17 inches
Neck: 16 inches

Weight: 185 Pounds

Is 12 weeks a realistic aim? Or is that far beyond what i could actually achieve. I have the motivation, and also have a friend who is just as keen as i am to do it all with me. Can i increase my body this much and also lose the inches around my waist etc?


How would you suggest i best go about it?


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## jmorrison (Aug 12, 2009)

Hey bud, nice to have you back.

As to your questions, I won't comment on the diet or exercise, basically because I don't yet have the knowledge to comment on it, but I will say that 12 weeks seems a little quick for the results you want.

A 6 inch loss on your waist MAY be possible, although that's an awful big reduction, but I would say that any gains you make on the muscle end of it will be minimal if any during your period of weight loss.  

A 4 inch gain on your biceps and chest is quite a bit of muscle mass to add, let alone while running a caloric deficit to cut fat.

Just my opinion, but I think you should look into Built's programs, and choose a more short term goal of either fat loss, OR muscle gain, and not try to do both at once.

Good luck!


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## jmorrison (Aug 12, 2009)

Also on your goals you state that you want a 32 inch waist, and 37 inch hips.  I may be reading your post incorrectly, but assuming you are a man, that would be odd.


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## phoenix05 (Aug 12, 2009)

Yeah that was a typo! Thanks for that, i didn't notice. 

I should have probably explained my situation a bit more. The goals i put down are my ultimate goals. I would like to reach them as soon as possible, however i just wanted to have something that i can strive for. I want to get as far as i can in the 13 weeks that i have.

I have a 13 week block right now that i can fully focus on this and this alone, and i wanted to use it the right way. After that i will have around a month where i will be traveling, and then i get another 18-20 weeks where i will pick up where i left off.

I really just want to get the best out of the time i have before i travel.

I should probably point out that i have lifted before, and so i definitely wouldn't consider myself a beginner, however it was very sports specific so this type of lifting is a little different.


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## jmorrison (Aug 12, 2009)

Ok, so what are your short term goals? Fat loss, or muscle gain?


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## phoenix05 (Aug 12, 2009)

So by that response I'm guessing doing both in a 13 week time frame isn't going to work 

If that is the case then i know i'd like to add a bit of size to my upper body in particular. I just have such a lack of definition in my upper body. My lower body is so different it's almost comical. 

So to answer your question, muscle gain would be my number one goal, with fat loss a close second.


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## jmorrison (Aug 12, 2009)

Sounds like a plan!  Most of the folks here would suggest for you to cut a bit prior to bulking, since you are over 20% BF, but regardless of your goals, you have to start somewhere.  

Ok, start here:

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/new-members-begin-here/97077-read-me-first-homework-1-newbies.html

I know you stated that you are not new to lifting, but this article will help you get back on track and offers some good information to assist you in reaching your goals quickly.


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## phoenix05 (Aug 12, 2009)

Thanks for the link! I'd already read that one previously but it's good to have another read. 

Well I'd like to get the best results possible, so if cutting first would help I'm happy to do that. I guess I'm just a little confused as to what's the best way to proceed.

Once I'm finished the travel around mid december, i will have much more time to get any results that i need to get. Right now i really would like to get the best results in the 13 weeks. 

I guess i have the goals up top, and would like to get as close as possible for the next few months, and then after the break i can fully concentrate on it all with a lot more time on my hands. 

I'm just getting confused on the best way to make a change before i travel. Should i cut, or focus on muscle gain? 

I think it's pretty clear that i need to lose inches around the waist, but it's also clear i need to add inches around the upper body area.

Is it stupid to go on an intense weights program, and doing some cardio, while eating with a calorie deficit to lose fat? Is that a waste of time? Or is there scope to add a few inches at the same time.


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## jmorrison (Aug 13, 2009)

That isn't a waste of time at all, and is in fact what I did to lose 55lbs.  

I kept the workouts short and intense, so that I didn't deplete myself too much, and did a 4 day split.  I lowered my calories, while keeping up the protein.  I did only minimal cardio, with HIIT twice a week.

The weightlifting will help you keep the muscle you have while cutting, and I actually managed to gain a LITTLE mass at the beginning, as my body was basically back to being a beginner after a long hiatus.


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## phoenix05 (Aug 13, 2009)

Thanks jmorrison.

I think i would be able to do a lot of the cardio if that makes any difference. What i do have on my side is time for the next 13 weeks. I would have about an hour in the morning, an hour in the middle of the day and about 2-3 hours in the evening to do whatever it takes. I'm not sure that will make a difference but it's something to note if anyone wants to help!


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## kyoun1e (Aug 13, 2009)

If you're at 21 - 25% BF, bulking is a terrible, terrible idea. 

I'd recommend a serious fat loss diet if you want to get "ripped" and then once you get sub-15% BF to then start thinking about bulking.

Some options:

* Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss program
* Some kind of every other day refeed program where you have an overall weekly caloric deficit, but eat above maintenance and work out heavy (but with low volume) twice a week; and throw a depletion workout and some cardio in there.

As an aside, I recently went from 209 lbs to 184 and maintained my strength. And it took me 8 weeks of training followed by two weeks of rest followed by another 4 weeks of training.

And I probably could have gotten there quicker if I had chosen the right program to start.

KY


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## kyoun1e (Aug 13, 2009)

phoenix05 said:


> I just have such a lack of definition in my upper body.



That's because it's covered by a layer of fat. Bulking will worsen this.

Cut the fat my friend.

1. Go 5 weeks on a resistance training / fat loss diet
2. week break
3. Repeat 1.
4. Week to prepare for trip.
5. Enjoy trip.

KY


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## Zeus100 (Aug 13, 2009)

phoenix05 said:


> I should probably point out that i have lifted before, and so i definitely wouldn't consider myself a beginner, however it was very sports specific so this type of lifting is a little different.





phoenix05 said:


> I should probably point out that i have lifted before, and so i definitely wouldn't consider myself a beginner, however it was very sports specific so this type of lifting is a little different.



These are interesting, sounds like a former speed skater, and unless that's true (or something very similar) I wouldn't neglect lower body training for upper body training. Heck, even if it is true, I wouldn't.  

From a pure effort point of view the "lower body" compound exercises (squats, deadlifts) engage far more of your entire body, and are far more effective for changing your body. Over all these compound movements are what will bring you the best results (long or short term). 



phoenix05 said:


> The diet seems pretty good. For weight loss they want me to eat 2755 calories, and to add weight i need to eat 3855. Which way should i be going? I definitely need to lose some fat, but i don't want to do it at the detriment of actually adding the size I'm after also.



Who are "they" and how did you come up with that number? What is your current activity level? If only moderately active, these seem a bit high for 210 lbs, with 21-25% BF. 



phoenix05 said:


> Is it stupid to go on an intense weights program, and doing some cardio, while eating with a calorie deficit to lose fat? Is that a waste of time?.



Also remember, a general rule, long cardio sessions are muscle "eating", so be cautious of those as a primary focus if you want to add significant muscle. 

Most effective method to long term fat loss is a gain in LBM, and therefore base metabolic rate. So a well thought out balance of eating and training (and cardio as an option) is essential. Mixing super high volume/intensity with low caloric intake will set you backwards.  



phoenix05 said:


> The plan I'm on right now suggests doing 3 sets of 6-10 reps. The workout is 4 days a week with around 13 exercises each session. I won't go into each move they suggest, but from most people's opinions it seems to be pretty good. They also have it broken down, so that if you want to personalize it, you can. For example for me, i might not do any leg sessions, but add an extra upper body session per week.



To get the most effective advice, you might want to post the exercises as well. 13 seems like a lot each session, depend on tempo and rest, could take forever to complete. 

Anyway, you begin to see how the eating and training parts are all linked.


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## phoenix05 (Aug 13, 2009)

kyoun1e said:


> If you're at 21 - 25% BF, bulking is a terrible, terrible idea.
> 
> I'd recommend a serious fat loss diet if you want to get "ripped" and then once you get sub-15% BF to then start thinking about bulking.
> 
> ...



I think this seems to be the general consensus so I'm thinking i might try and get to 15% BF before i do anything else.



kyoun1e said:


> That's because it's covered by a layer of fat. Bulking will worsen this.
> 
> Cut the fat my friend.
> 
> ...



I'm assuming losing this amount of BF will take the entire 13 weeks at the very least to do, so I'm guessing i should just really focus on that. Is there a goal i should be setting for myself. Is getting from around 21-23% to 14% realistic in that time frame? This is the first time i've had a set BF % that i'm aiming for, rather than a specific weight. 



Zeus100 said:


> These are interesting, sounds like a former speed skater, and unless that's true (or something very similar) I wouldn't neglect lower body training for upper body training. Heck, even if it is true, I wouldn't.


Yep your pretty close on the sport. It was very lower body specific so i've managed to get my legs in great shape. I love how they look, and if possible wouldn't like to add anymore to them



Zeus100 said:


> From a pure effort point of view the "lower body" compound exercises (squats, deadlifts) engage far more of your entire body, and are far more effective for changing your body. Over all these compound movements are what will bring you the best results (long or short term).



Will this add size to my lower body? Or should i just stop worrying about that, and do the squats etc.? I'm happy to do them, i just want to get the right stuff for my body.



Zeus100 said:


> Who are "they" and how did you come up with that number? What is your current activity level? If only moderately active, these seem a bit high for 210 lbs, with 21-25% BF.



I am following a book i was given by a trainer at my gym. It was mainly to give me a better understanding of a few different things, but it also had a program, and a diet. I will post up all the info this afternoon on the diet, and training info. 



Zeus100 said:


> Also remember, a general rule, long cardio sessions are muscle "eating", so be cautious of those as a primary focus if you want to add significant muscle.
> 
> Most effective method to long term fat loss is a gain in LBM, and therefore base metabolic rate. So a well thought out balance of eating and training (and cardio as an option) is essential. Mixing super high volume/intensity with low caloric intake will set you backwards.



So i should avoid the cardio and just do the weights and get my diet spot on? I don't mind doing cardio, in fact i enjoy it. I also have a lot of time to focus on this so that's not the issue. As i said before i have around 4-5 hours a day i can be spending on this, so i want to get the most out of my time.



Zeus100 said:


> To get the most effective advice, you might want to post the exercises as well. 13 seems like a lot each session, depend on tempo and rest, could take forever to complete.
> 
> Anyway, you begin to see how the eating and training parts are all linked.




I am having my BF% and a few other things done today in about 4 hours, so i will be able to post everything after that. I have been trying to lose fat for around 9 weeks now, and i started out at 223pounds. I was 210 last time i checked, but i haven't checked the BF % since i started so I'm curious about it now.

I think most of you are saying to go the cutting route before i think about bulking up. I'm happy to take the advice as it seems to be the general consensus.


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## phoenix05 (Aug 13, 2009)

Ok so i said i'd post my results and everything else so here goes. When i went in originally i weighed 216 poinds, and today i am 205.5, so that's not a bad start.

My BF% was 27.8% and is now 22.3%, so apparently all the weight loss was fat and not a thing in muscle, which is great, but seems a little surprising really. 

As far as the diet, i was recommended for losing fat to eat 2755 calories, with 172g of protein, 61g fat, and 379g carbs. This is what i've stuck to for the past few days, so i'm not totally sure of the results so far. When i lost all the fat resently i had no diet worked out at all. I just ate when i was really hungry and tried to eat healthy. No science to that at all. I'm curious to know thoughts on the current split up of the diet.

Here's a more thorough breakdown:

Breakfast - 

1 cup fat free yogurt
1 ounce low fat granola
1 teaspoon flaxseed oil
1 ounce toasted plain wheat germ

Lunch - 

1 cup lettuce
1 tomato
1 medium carrot
2 tablespoons light caesar dressing
3 ounces ham
1 medium pair

Dinner - 

3 ounces of chicken breast
1/2 cup of mixed frozen vegetables
1 baked potato
1 teaspoon butter
1/2 cup of strawberries

Morning snack - 

3/4 cup instant oatmeal
1 cup fat free milk
1 ounce toasted plain wheat germ
3 ounces unsweetened blueberries

Afternoon snack - 

2 teaspoons reduced fat peanut butter
2 celery stalks
8 ounces fat free yogurt
1/2 ounce toasted plain wheat germ
1 ounce raisins

That's it for food. I feel much better in terms of my energy levels than i did previously but before that i had no diet whatsoever, so anything was a step up.

In terms of the weights program, there is an intermediate and an advanced. I was planning on starting with the intermediate for 4 weeks and then doing the advanced.

Intermediate: Cardio Warm up, and then a warm up set on each eaxercise, adn then aim for 3 sets of 6-10 reps which includes the warm up set. During the concentric phase is to a count of four.

Day 1: Arms and Shoulders

1. overhead press
2. upright row
3. side deltoid raise
4. Dumpbell kick back
5. preacher curl
6. forearm curl
7. reverse forearm

Day 2: Rest

Day 3: Butt, Thighs and Legs

1. Hack Squat
2. Leg curl with ankle weights
3. Leg extension with ankle waights
4. Heel raise with dumbbells
5. Ankle flexion with weight
6. Stationary lunge with dumbbells
7. Lateral lunge with barbell

Day 4: Rest

Day 5: Chest, abs, and back

1. Incline Bench
2. Dumbbell fly
3. One arm Dumbbell
4. T-Bar row
5. Dumbbell trunk twist
6. Oblique trunk rotation with weight plate
7. Dumbbell side bend

Day 6&7: Rest


Advanced: Same as intermediate with adding in 1-2 partial reps when you reach failure.

Day 1: Legs, Butt, Thighs, Chest, Triceps, Abs

1. Squat
2. Hack Squat
3. Leg Curl with ankle weights
4. Leg extension with ankle weights
5. Heel raise with dumbbells
6. ankle flexion with weight plate
7. stationary lunge with dumbbells
8. Incline bench
9. Dumbbell fly
10. French Curl
11. Rowing Crunch with ankle weights
12. Oblique trunk rotation with weight plate

Day 2: Back, Shoulders, biceps, and forearms

1. Upright row
2. Side Deltoid
3. Shrug
4. Front deltoid raise
5. Behind the neck press with barbell
6. T-Bar row
7. Dumbbell swing
8. wide grip row
9. One arm dumbbell row
10. Preacher curl
11. Reverse grip barbell curl
12. Forearm curl
13. Reverse forearm

Day 3&4: Rest

Day 5: Legs, butt, thighs, chest, triceps, and abs

1. Front Squat
2. Good morning
3. Duck squat with dumbbell
4. leg curl with ankle weights
5. dumbbell power lunge
6. Seated Heel raise with barbell
7. ankle flexion with weight plate
8. lateral lunge with barbell
9. decline bench press
10. Dumbbell fly
11. Dumbbell kick back
12. Leg raise with ankle weights
13. Oblique trunk rotation with weight plate

Day 6: Back, shoulders, biceps, and forearm

1. Dumbbell raise
2. Lying side deltoids raise
3. shrug
4. Front deltoids raise
5. Overhead press with barbell
6. wide grip row
7. Good morning
8. toe touch with weight
9. One arm dumbbell row
10. Alternating dumbbell curl
11. Wrist raise
12. Reverse wrist raise


Both the intermediate and the advanced have 2-3 weeks of exercises to go through, but they are nearly all the same as these shown here.

So any help would be fantastic! I think from the general view from people that i should definitely aim to get to 15% BF before i start to try and bulk up, but is the programs here going to help me do that the fastest way?

Thanks again!


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## jmorrison (Aug 13, 2009)

phoenix05 said:


> I think this seems to be the general consensus so I'm thinking i might try and get to 15% BF before i do anything else.



Good idea.  Another benefit to this is that you may partition better when bulking if you start a little leaner.



phoenix05 said:


> I'm assuming losing this amount of BF will take the entire 13 weeks at the very least to do, so I'm guessing i should just really focus on that. Is there a goal i should be setting for myself. Is getting from around 21-23% to 14% realistic in that time frame? This is the first time i've had a set BF % that i'm aiming for, rather than a specific weight.



Dropping 6-7% BF MAY be a bit extreme.  You want to aim for about 2-2.5lbs of weight loss per week to minimize muscle loss.  At this rate it may take you a little longer than 13 weeks, but you will be happier with the results in the end.




phoenix05 said:


> Will this add size to my lower body? Or should i just stop worrying about that, and do the squats etc.? I'm happy to do them, i just want to get the right stuff for my body.



This is just my opinion, but squats are just so damned beneficial, I would just say do them and hell with it.  Big wheels aren't a bad thing!  You will most likely lose some size on them anyway while cutting.




phoenix05 said:


> So i should avoid the cardio and just do the weights and get my diet spot on? I don't mind doing cardio, in fact i enjoy it. I also have a lot of time to focus on this so that's not the issue. As i said before i have around 4-5 hours a day i can be spending on this, so i want to get the most out of my time.



Look into HIIT training.  Built turned me onto it a couple months ago when my fat loss had slowed down, and it cranked it right back up again.  I only do 2 days a week of it, and am still steadily losing.

Good luck!


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## kyoun1e (Aug 14, 2009)

phoenix05 said:


> As far as the diet, i was recommended for losing fat to eat 2755 calories, with 172g of protein, 61g fat, and 379g carbs.



I think this could be acheivable. There's no question you can lose 1.5 - 2lbs per week, but I'm not sure you can do it at a caloric level of 2,755. That seems like a high caloric intake if you want to make your goal fat loss.

At 205 x say 15, you're maintenance calories are probably ballpark 3,100. At 2,755 you're looking at a daily caloric deficit of 350 and a weekly deficit of 2,500ish. Not bad, but I think you could do better.

If you want to lose 1.5 - 2lbs of fat per week you may want to cut cals back 40-50% say 4-5 days per week and then do refeeds in between so you don't go insane/crash your hormones/lose LBM. In this way, you can get that deficit over 3,500 cals.

That's a ridiculously high number of carbs daily for a fat loss diet as well. On diet days, I'd go low on carbs, heavy on protein (1.5g/lbm) and then when you need a refeed eat at maintenance or a little higher, up the carbs (around workouts), and keep protein at 1g/lbm at least.

Probably confusing as hell I bet.

KY


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## gtbmed (Aug 14, 2009)

Squats are a great full-body exercise.  They'll work your legs, sure, but they'll develop a strong upper and lower back as well.


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## kyoun1e (Aug 14, 2009)

phoenix05 said:


> So any help would be fantastic! I think from the general view from people that i should definitely aim to get to 15% BF before i start to try and bulk up, but is the programs here going to help me do that the fastest way?
> 
> Thanks again!



Jeesh...this program looks like a trainwreck for fat loss.

I'd focus first on setting up the diet right. Then align the workout.

In general, if you're looking for fat loss, you want to lift heavier and with high intensity and cut back the volume of the workout. You need to convince the muscle that there's a reason to stick around, but on low cals, you're not going to want to beat the crap out of yourself.

Stick to major movements. Compounds.

Two different forearm exercises? I don't think so.

KY


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## Zeus100 (Aug 14, 2009)

phoenix05 said:


> As far as the diet, i was recommended for losing fat to eat 2755 calories, with *172g of protein*, 61g fat, and 379g carbs.
> 
> Here's a more thorough breakdown:
> 
> ...



I'm not sure I see anything here that gets close to 170g of protein. I'm guessing 70-80 in this example (only real sources are 3 oz of chicken and ham)

A usual recommendation, which I found very useful is to sign-up for a free account at FitDay - Free Weight Loss and Diet Journal
I'm upgraded to the (pay) premium and desktop versions (Fitday PC). 

The most important thing is to track and adjust (over the appropriate, not daily, duration).

I tend to think like most here that a lower carb is more satisfying, but mostly it's about comfort and what works for you. There are dozens (hundreds?) of threads here debating low/high/no carb/fat/protein concepts. Do a quick search, or just scroll back a bit and you'll find a lot. 




phoenix05 said:


> Intermediate: Cardio Warm up, and then a warm up set on each exercise, and then aim for 3 sets of 6-10 reps which includes the warm up set. During the concentric phase is to a count of four.
> 
> Day 1: Arms and Shoulders
> 
> ...



There seems to be a lot of accessory exercises there. Not to offend, but a funny thing I read once was a comment on observing a fat guy in the gym doing wrist curls. They drew an analogy to totaling your car, but wanting to fix the stereo first. Don't worry about the fine "accessory muscles" when the major muscle groups are lacking. If you do want some, do AN exercise for that part once a week, not 2-4 times a week. 

Nothing wrong with some ab work, but it also doesn't need to be worked every day. A good set of compound exercises will give you a tonne of core muscle development. 

I'm not sure, given your description or your lower body, that any leg exercise with ankle weights is meaningful. (although a concentric 4 count is challenging)

Just as a comparison, here is my just getting started program... you can see I've gone with a KISS approach. 

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/101990-program-critique-please.html




> > Originally Posted by phoenix05
> > So i should avoid the cardio and just do the weights and get my diet spot on? I don't mind doing cardio, in fact i enjoy it. I also have a lot of time to focus on this so that's not the issue. As i said before i have around 4-5 hours a day i can be spending on this, so i want to get the most out of my time.
> 
> 
> ...



HIIT is a good option, long duration "steady state" cardio is a bad thing (and boring)

I also like jmorrisons comment on squats, 


> This is just my opinion, but squats are just so damned beneficial, I would just say do them and hell with it. Big wheels aren't a bad thing! You will most likely lose some size on them anyway while cutting



You can probably get some advice from those who know better on how to tailor that part of your program to avoid additional size.


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## Ben dur (Aug 14, 2009)

*OVER 300g OF CARBS A DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

bring that down significantly and youll see better results
even if you increase fats in doing so

300g of carbs seems more like a weight GAIN number to me

i only consume around 200g a day, and my goals are MAINT/PERFORMANCE

im not even trying to loose anything (if anything i expect gains)and im consuming significantly less carbs, and roughly the same number of total calories as you

thought i consume SIGNIFICANTLY more protien and fat

im comfortable with
250g Protein
100g Fat
200g Carbs

100g of carbs are directly before/after i workout
20g of carbs are fiber

so im only consuming around 80g of carbs elsewhere in my diet

around here people say it doesnt matter when you consume them, but i find that their most comfortable in the morning and early afternoon


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## phoenix05 (Aug 14, 2009)

Ok now I'm significantly more confused  You think you're doing a good thing starting something like this and now it looks like it's no where near what i need to do!

So i think what i need to do is this:

1. Get a diet that is higher in protein, lower in carbs, and lower in Calories. Track my diet. (I'm using a blog to track all of this, but i will look into fit day if it provides much more)

2. Get a workout that has more compound exercises, and in less time than the current one

3. Do HIIT cardio instead of longer cardio (Not sure how many times a week is good here for fat loss!)

Is that about right? 

Now to find the proper programs!  thanks again everyone i appreciate it all. I'm very keen to get these goals but clearly i have no idea what I'm doing!!!!!


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## jmorrison (Aug 14, 2009)

Phoenix, you can literally find everything you need right on this site.  

Cowpimp, Gazhole, Pfunk, Built (to seriously only name a few) all have programs built from the ground up.  They cover diet, resistance training, HIIT, EVERYTHING you need.  

Fitday is the best thing you can do for diet.  It will help you track what you are eating with a much higher level of precision and planning than a regular journal (at least until you learn your foods).

As far as your question about HIIT, personally I do it twice a week, with 2-3 days in between.  This is about all I can stand.  Maybe I am overdoing it, but when I go through a HIIT routine, I am spent, and I feel beat up for at least a day after, but I will tell you honestly, that the fat is still flying off.

Diet + HIIT = lean.


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## phoenix05 (Aug 14, 2009)

jmorrison said:


> Phoenix, you can literally find everything you need right on this site.
> 
> Cowpimp, Gazhole, Pfunk, Built (to seriously only name a few) all have programs built from the ground up.  They cover diet, resistance training, HIIT, EVERYTHING you need.
> 
> ...




Thanks! I have started going through as much as i can on this site. I'll aim to do the HIIT routine twice a week too. I have time to spare so i can really focus on the diet and recovery after that. 

With so many different workouts it's hard to know which one to use right now, but I'm sure after i read through as much as i can i 'll get a good idea of what's best for me. As i said in the previous post, i'll aim to get the diet right, then start the HIIT routine, and then hit the resistance work.


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## Zeus100 (Aug 14, 2009)

phoenix05 said:


> .... but I'm sure after i read through as much as i can i 'll get a good idea of what's best for me.





Read and do searchs, it's the best thing you can do. Remember as a beginner, keep it simple. You'll body will need to begin to adapt to it's new lifestyle. 



phoenix05 said:


> As i said in the previous post, i'll aim to get the diet right, then start the HIIT, and then hit the resistance work.



Don't wait too long on the resistance training. 

I think you'll find that most the advanced people here generally have a fairly simple routine, although they may change it from time to time, as they move through a program. 

Sounds like your on the right track. Don't try to get the plan perfect, get it pretty good and make tweaks (based on your own observations and feedback from people here).   

*Do try to get your form for each exercise perfect though!*

Google, Wikipedwa and U-tube will be your friends too.    

Good luck.


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## kyoun1e (Aug 15, 2009)

phoenix05 said:


> 3. Do HIIT cardio instead of longer cardio (Not sure how many times a week is good here for fat loss!)
> 
> Is that about right?



I actually would avoid HIIT if you have muscle mass and want to preserve it. If you diet hard, cut cals severly, and workout heavy a couple times a week AND do HIIT you are going to eat away muscle. Steady state cardio would be fine. And to be honest, if you set up your diet and deficit correctly, that will do most of the fat burning work, not cardio...especially at your BF level.

Lots of people have differing opinions on HIIT though. My two cents.

KY


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## jbish8 (Aug 15, 2009)

jmorrison said:


> Also on your goals you state that you want a 32 inch waist, and 37 inch hips.  I may be reading your post incorrectly, but assuming you are a man, that would be odd.


Just curious......Why exactly would this be odd?


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## jmorrison (Aug 15, 2009)

Maybe I am reading into it wrong, but wouldn't a 32 inch waist and 37 inch hips be a strange ratio on a man?  Maybe not, just seems like thats a lot of hip.


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## jmorrison (Aug 15, 2009)

kyoun1e said:


> I actually would avoid HIIT if you have muscle mass and want to preserve it. If you diet hard, cut cals severly, and workout heavy a couple times a week AND do HIIT you are going to eat away muscle. Steady state cardio would be fine. And to be honest, if you set up your diet and deficit correctly, that will do most of the fat burning work, not cardio...especially at your BF level.
> 
> Lots of people have differing opinions on HIIT though. My two cents.
> 
> KY



We need Built to chime in here 

I do HIIT because it seems to preserve muscle better than steady state, at least for me, but I am not nearly educated enough to argue this topic in an intelligent manner, so I will just say "I know you are but what am I?" and hope someone with more knowledge jumps in!


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## jbish8 (Aug 15, 2009)

jmorrison said:


> Maybe I am reading into it wrong, but wouldn't a 32 inch waist and 37 inch hips be a strange ratio on a man?  Maybe not, just seems like thats a lot of hip.


I have a 29" waist and 38" hips and I've never been told I look odd. Personally, I think a little booty looks good on either sex. I hate flat butts, but to each their own. I just wanted the OP to feel ok about his original goal, unless it was legitimatly a typo (which I doubt). Here's what it looks like in case your interested:


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## jmorrison (Aug 15, 2009)

Ah gotcha, sorry, nothing personal, I guess it just sounded strange to me!  I wasnt thinking about butt involvement, I was thinking about the measurement straight around the hip bones  No offense to those blessed with butt!


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## phoenix05 (Aug 16, 2009)

jmorrison said:


> Ah gotcha, sorry, nothing personal, I guess it just sounded strange to me!  I wasnt thinking about butt involvement, I was thinking about the measurement straight around the hip bones  No offense to those blessed with butt!




I was a bit off in my first measurements, but it wasn't far off. I had to go check a few times to make sure i didn't have it all wrong.

I hate to say it but I'm getting more and more confused right now. I've been reading up as much as i can on diet, and resistance programs, as well as which cardio is best for me. 

I know it's not the same for everyone, so i guess it isn't going to be that easy, but i'd like to be able to get it all set and start ASAP and it's going to take a bit longer to get set up than i though. 

I'd still like people's opinions on what i should be doing while I'm reading up on everything though!


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## jbish8 (Aug 16, 2009)

No problem JMorrison. 
Phoenix, you've gotten some pretty solid advice already. I would just add that I agree you should cut if your trying to look good for your trip. You won't add size , but you'll be suprised how much bigger you LOOK when you get ripped. It may actually solve your whole proportion problem. If not, then you can always start bulking. As far as the cardio issue, Built has a article on her blog called "how to do cardio if you must" that is good. I've also seen a couple other articles that teach the same basic principles. Basically the best way to do cardio (according to the experts above), is to include a combination of both HIIT and LISS. It makes sense to me. Simply do HIIT for 5-10 min. followed by LISS for 15-30 min. after. Do this 2-4 times per week and preferably avoid doing this on the same day you work your legs. There's more to it than this but this is a basic summary. Make sure to keep your volume low and intensity high with resistance work while you're cutting and as far as your macros go, it doesn't matter a whole lot what they are other than getting at least 1-1.5g of protein per lb of lean mass and roughly .5g of good fats per lb of lean mass. Really, aside from this any other changes to macros should all be about satieity as it will only work if you can comfortably stick to it. I cut down to the 5% range eating over 300 carbs per day but carbs don't make me hungry like they do some here. Most important thing to remember is cals. in vs. cals. out so find your maintainance and eat 500 less cals. per week for every lb you want to lose. Good luck.


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## phoenix05 (Aug 16, 2009)

jbish8 said:


> No problem JMorrison.
> Phoenix, you've gotten some pretty solid advice already. I would just add that I agree you should cut if your trying to look good for your trip. You won't add size , but you'll be suprised how much bigger you LOOK when you get ripped. It may actually solve your whole proportion problem. If not, then you can always start bulking.



Yep i think this is the way I'm going to go. I've started a resistance program that I'll do until i can get a better one from here. I have a lot of reading to do until i can figure out which routine to do. I'm getting a little confused and there is a lot of information to get through!



jbish8 said:


> As far as the cardio issue, Built has a article on her blog called "how to do cardio if you must" that is good. I've also seen a couple other articles that teach the same basic principles. Basically the best way to do cardio (according to the experts above), is to include a combination of both HIIT and LISS. It makes sense to me. Simply do HIIT for 5-10 min. followed by LISS for 15-30 min. after. Do this 2-4 times per week and preferably avoid doing this on the same day you work your legs. There's more to it than this but this is a basic summary.



I have read that article, and it's going to be something i start this week and see how i go. If it doesn't work to my expectations then I'll try the low intensity stuff after that.



jbish8 said:


> Make sure to keep your volume low and intensity high with resistance work while you're cutting and as far as your macros go, it doesn't matter a whole lot what they are other than getting at least 1-1.5g of protein per lb of lean mass and roughly .5g of good fats per lb of lean mass. Really, aside from this any other changes to macros should all be about satieity as it will only work if you can comfortably stick to it. I cut down to the 5% range eating over 300 carbs per day but carbs don't make me hungry like they do some here. Most important thing to remember is cals. in vs. cals. out so find your maintainance and eat 500 less cals. per week for every lb you want to lose. Good luck.



The diet part is starting to get to me a little. The reason i liked the previous diet, is because it's something that i could stick to fairly easy. I'm a hopeless cook, and absolutely hate the kitchen, so a simple easy to make diet is one I'm after. 


There just seems to be a lot of stuff out there, and it's awfully difficult to get it all sorted. I have the cardio i want to try, so now I'm just going to try and find the diet i can stick to, and a resistance program that suits what I'm after. After doing loads of reading lately i feel like I'm not much closer!


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## jbish8 (Aug 16, 2009)

phoenix05 said:


> The diet part is starting to get to me a little. The reason i liked the previous diet, is because it's something that i could stick to fairly easy. I'm a hopeless cook, and absolutely hate the kitchen, so a simple easy to make diet is one I'm after.
> There just seems to be a lot of stuff out there, and it's awfully difficult to get it all sorted. I have the cardio i want to try, so now I'm just going to try and find the diet i can stick to, and a resistance program that suits what I'm after. After doing loads of reading lately i feel like I'm not much closer!



For the diet, I don't know how to say it any more simply than I already have. Don't over think it. Just start with the minimum macros I already stated and start tweaking things from there to fit your own satiety. You're the only one that will be able to determine what is best. Just make sure and keep to the minimum protein and fat, and eat more than maintainence to gain weight or less to cut weight. You shouldn't need to worry about anything else unless you try to get to sub 10% ranges. As far as what to eat, my staples are Boneless skinless chicken or turkey breast, eggs, whey protein, tuna, cottage cheese, oats, brown rice, whole wheat breads and tortillas, almonds, natural PB, olive oil, both starchy and fibrous veggies, (love black beans, yams and potatoes, broccolli and spinach) and fruit (not juice). Yes, there are a ton more good foods, but you wanted easy, so just get your own favs. down and then find different ways to combine or prepare them to break the monotony and it doesn't get any simpler.


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## phoenix05 (Aug 16, 2009)

jbish8 said:


> For the diet, I don't know how to say it any more simply than I already have. Don't over think it. Just start with the minimum macros I already stated and start tweaking things from there to fit your own satiety. You're the only one that will be able to determine what is best. Just make sure and keep to the minimum protein and fat, and eat more than maintainence to gain weight or less to cut weight. You shouldn't need to worry about anything else unless you try to get to sub 10% ranges. As far as what to eat, my staples are Boneless skinless chicken or turkey breast, eggs, whey protein, tuna, cottage cheese, oats, brown rice, whole wheat breads and tortillas, almonds, natural PB, olive oil, both starchy and fibrous veggies, (love black beans, yams and potatoes, broccolli and spinach) and fruit (not juice). Yes, there are a ton more good foods, but you wanted easy, so just get your own favs. down and then find different ways to combine or prepare them to break the monotony and it doesn't get any simpler.



Thanks. After i posted I read a bunch of stuff from the nutrition section so I'm basically up to speed with that now. I think i have it all broken down now, so i will go for a shop this week and get started. 

Looking into the resistance stuff now.


I'm guessing something along the lines of:

3 days a week, reps 6-12, 3 sets, and rest for 60-90 secs

Day 1: 
Bench press
Dips
Incline Press
Shoulder press

Day 2:
Cardio

Day 3:

Close grip chin up
Bent over row
Lat pull down
Shrugs
Cable row

Day 4:
Cardio

Day 5:

Squat
Deadlift
Step Ups

Day 6:
Rest

Day 7:
Cardio

That's about where I'm at right now. I know it's not even close to being ready yet, but that's my starting point and what I'll work off for now. This is a start anyway.


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## jmorrison (Aug 16, 2009)

As Jbish stated, don't overthink the diet.  Just track calories in vs calories out and you will be fine for weight loss.  Leave the more complex diets for when you are trying to get sub 12%.  A regular ol' deficit will get you there no problem, and will be easier for you to follow.


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## phoenix05 (Aug 17, 2009)

Does anyone have any advice on the above weights program? I'd like to get started on something similar as soon as possible, and it feels like the above is a bit short on some things.


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## jmorrison (Aug 17, 2009)

I have been using something similiar during my cut.  Using mainly 3x8 sets/reps with a weight that is very hard to complete the third set with.

Personally I wouldn't combine deads with squats, but that's just me.  Both of those pretty much wipe me out.  I do RDL's on squat days, but regular deads I do on upper pull day.

The workout may seem easy to you on paper, or lacking, but keep in mind that you will be running a caloric deficit and these will tire you out.  Resistance training during a cut is not to get big per se (although you may gain a little LBM if you havent been in the gym for a while) so much as it is to convince your body that you need the muscle and not to eat it when it's looking for food.

These workouts should be short and intense.  While cutting I keep my weight training to less than an hour, usually in the 45 minute range.

Also, I see you are doing cardio 3 x week.  This may work great for you, but I know that personally 3 HIIT days a week would flat out kill me.  I keep it to 2 days of HIIT weekly myself.  Keep in mind that the fat loss you experience is from diet, not from the cardio.


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## phoenix05 (Aug 22, 2009)

Ok i have a program that i want to start on Monday and was hoping i could get a bit more advice on how i could improve it.

3 days a week, reps 6-10, 3 sets, and rest for 60-90 secs

Day 1:
Bench press
Dips
Incline Bench Press
Shoulder press
deadlift
dumbbell pullover
tricep pushdown

Day 2:
Cardio

Day 3:
Close grip chin up
Lat pull down
Shrugs
Cable seated row
Lat Raise
Dumbbell curl

Day 4:
Cardio

Day 5:

Squat
Step Ups
Leg curl
leg press
Lunges

Day 6:
Rest

Day 7:
Cardio


Am i missing anything? Should i change anything? Compared to the program i listed back on the first page, is this better? Can i expect good results from this or is there lots i need to change? 

Thanks for all the help. I have the diet going well, so this is really the only part that I'm struggling with getting settled now.

Thanks!


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## P-funk (Aug 22, 2009)

Less is more.

patrick


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## T_man (Aug 22, 2009)

kyoun1e said:


> I actually would avoid HIIT if you have muscle mass and want to preserve it. If you diet hard, cut cals severly, and workout heavy a couple times a week AND do HIIT you are going to eat away muscle. Steady state cardio would be fine. And to be honest, if you set up your diet and deficit correctly, that will do most of the fat burning work, not cardio...especially at your BF level.
> 
> Lots of people have differing opinions on HIIT though. My two cents.
> 
> KY



Sprinters do HIIT. Long distance runners do steady state.

Is there a difference in physiques?? Your can work that out yourself.


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## phoenix05 (Aug 22, 2009)

I'll definitely be doing some HIIT during this. Maybe not 3 days a week, but i'll aim for at least two and see how i go. 

It's been a bit over a week since i started the diet, and I've dropped a further kilogram so I'm happy about that so far. I expect i have around 9-10kg's to go before I'm bellow 15% so still quite a ways left. 

P-Funk i'm guessing by your cryptic message you believe i should have less in those workouts? Care to explain which ones? I'm thinking on days 1 and 3 may be a little much, but day 5 looks good. I did the day 5 workout on friday, but added in some side lunges and calf raises and it seemed ok. It certainly killed me, but it didn't seem overboard. I haven't been able to walk since, but that was my first leg workout in months. 

For the last two weeks i have been using a program that has 2 or 3 more exercises in it and it seemed ok, so i thought this would be a reasonable one to go with. 

Or are you indicating that doing 3 days resistance and 3 days cardio is too much. As i said earlier that's probably a bit of a pipe dream to be doing 3 ays of each, but i will be aiming for two and seeing how i go.

Thanks again!


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## T_man (Aug 22, 2009)

phoenix05 said:


> I'll definitely be doing some HIIT during this. Maybe not 3 days a week, but i'll aim for at least two and see how i go.
> 
> It's been a bit over a week since i started the diet, and I've dropped a further kilogram so I'm happy about that so far. I expect i have around 9-10kg's to go before I'm bellow 15% so still quite a ways left.
> 
> ...



You should not kill yourself. You're not consuming enough calories to properly recover & repair so you will be losing that muscle by killing yourself. Merkaba once made a famous quote "Stimulate, not Annhialate".

Things like lat pulldown. They aren't the best exercises but if you're doing chins then you don't need lat pulldowns, especially on a cut where you're trying to just stimulate your muscle. Step ups as well are more of a high rep exercise, if you even class them as a bodybuilding exercise that is. I wouldn't do them if I were you unless you're planning on using them as cardio.

I would cut out alot of the isolations like curls, shrugs, lateral raises etc as you stimulate the muscles concerned in compound movements. You're not trying to emphasise their growth, so why do they need to have extra work done on them when you're only trying to stimulate them, not to make them grow. Shoulder press/Arnie Press should have you covered for shoulders as they're hit alot when doing chest and back and to some extent even some leg work.

As for the cardio, if you're planning on doing HIIT, do around 20 mins of low effort cardio after, like a brisk walk or something to burn some of the fat that has been moblisied by hormones in reaction to the HIIT. It will also serve as a cool-down which alot of people overlook. My PE teacher explained to me that brisk walking for 30 mins burns more fat than jogging for 30 mins. This is because your fat cannot be metabolised fast enough to produce the energy needed for the higher demand exercises and so muscle is burned instead. With glycogen close to depletion after HIIT, low/moderate cardio will set the fat burning off.
Basically what P-Funk means (I think) is that on a cut, with the low calories, you cannot afford to push your body to extremes or tax it alot because it's not recieving the fuel to accomodate the stress it's being put under, therefore it breaks down the muscle instead. Both the workout and cardio need to be done in a relative comfort zone (except HIIT which should leave you feeling sick).


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## P-funk (Aug 22, 2009)

T_man said:


> Sprinters do HIIT. Long distance runners do steady state.
> 
> Is there a difference in physiques?? Your can work that out yourself.



Not a good argument at all.

Sprinters don't do HIIT either.  That is a myth made up by people who know nothing about sprinting and how those athletes train.

patrick


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## P-funk (Aug 22, 2009)

> P-Funk i'm guessing by your cryptic message you believe i should have less in those workouts? Care to explain which ones? I'm thinking on days 1 and 3 may be a little much, but day 5 looks good. I did the day 5 workout on friday, but added in some side lunges and calf raises and it seemed ok. It certainly killed me, but it didn't seem overboard. I haven't been able to walk since, but that was my first leg workout in months.



Less is more.  I am fond of saying, push something, pull something and do something for your legs. That's it!  Really!

People seem to think that by doing more volume they are getting more of a workout. In the process they end up wasting a ton of time.

Check out this article by Jim Wendler on his 5/3/1 system.  I think he explains simplicity really well.

patrick


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## T_man (Aug 23, 2009)

P-funk said:


> Not a good argument at all.
> 
> Sprinters don't do HIIT either.  That is a myth made up by people who know nothing about sprinting and how those athletes train.
> 
> patrick



It's not an argument. I'm just pointing out something people can visualise because it's hard to understand concepts which don't seem to make sense logically straight away. I do understand that sprinters do steady state and you can do endurance training and still have adequate amounts of muscle mass but in order to do so you need to make up the calories and there is a higher risk of catabolism than in short sprint bursts but here it's getting too complex for someone who doesn't know whether to do steady state cardio or HIIT for optimum fat loss. If you were to eat the same diet, HIIT would lead to more fat loss/muscle sparing than steady state imo, this is what I'm saying.

In high school when I used to sprint we used to do HIIT once a week. I'm not saying it's the base of sprinter's routines but they do incorporate it into their training. I do understand sprinting Patrick please don't underestimate me, I know I'm young and not as knowledgable as you but patronising is uncalled for.


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## P-funk (Aug 23, 2009)

I wasn't patronizing you.  Don't read into things.  All I was stating was that sprinters don't do HIIT interval training.

patrick


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## phoenix05 (Aug 23, 2009)

I posted something last night but it hasn't appeared here, so I'm not sure what happened there.

I just wanted to update on what i had after taking into account what everyone has said here. I'm thinking around 6 exercises per session seems about right. Maybe i should push for five, but 6 seems like the sweet spot.

Here is the updated program:

3 days a week, reps 6-10, 3 sets, and rest for 60-90 secs

Day 1:
Bench press
Dips
Incline Bench Press
Shoulder press
dumbbell pullover
tricep pushdown

Day 2:
Cardio

Day 3:
Close grip chin up
Cable seated row
Lat Raise
Dumbbell curl
Wide grip Chin Up
deadlift


Day 4:
Cardio


Day 5:

Squat
Leg curl
leg press
Lunges
Angled ab twist with plate
Oblique side abs
Trunk twist with Dumbbell

Day 6:
Rest

Day 7:
Rest

I have taken out a the extra days cardio also. I'll see how i go with two sessions and then add in a third if it's necessary. But with my weight loss so far i don't think it will be just yet.

The only things I'm thinking i may take out now is the tricep pushdown, and the dumbbell curls. This would get it down to 5 exercises.

I'll be giving this a start tonight and seeing how i go. The weight seems to continue to fly off me, so if i can maintain the muscle i would be very happy.


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## phoenix05 (Aug 23, 2009)

P-funk said:


> Check out this article by Jim Wendler on his 5/3/1 system.  I think he explains simplicity really well.
> 
> patrick



I missed this the first time around. I see that he uses only 3 exercises in each one, so I might look at lowering it to 3 on mine. I don't want to appear like I'm avoiding doing it, but the article and program seems focused mainly on strength gains, whereas mine is purely muscle gain. Is there a difference? From my understanding from people on this site, the main difference will be the amount of reps. 6-10 being the ideal for muscle gain, and lower for strength gain. Is this accurate?

I'm looking forward to hearing what people think!


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## P-funk (Aug 23, 2009)

Hypertrophy gains come from eating enough calories.

Do enough work to force and adaptation and don't spend any more time in the gym wasting calories.

patrick


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## gtbmed (Aug 24, 2009)

You can make good strength and size gains in the 3-5 rep range.

Like p funk said, do enough to stimulate hypertrophy and then go eat and rest.  IMO there's no need to do 4 different variations of a similar pressing movement if you want hypertrophy.


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## phoenix05 (Aug 24, 2009)

I'll definitely be cutting down the 7 exercises to around 3 or 4! We did a workout last night, and 3 or 4 is certainly what i should be aiming for. Thanks for all the help everyone. I'm going to get the UD2 book when i get closer to the 15% body fat mark so i can keep everything running smoothly. 

Everything seems to be going really well. I continue to lose the weight at a pretty good rate, and i feel pretty good too. 

I can't wait to get down to a low enough BF % to start bulking up finally!

Thanks again everyone! I appreciate it all.


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## P-funk (Aug 24, 2009)

Sounds like you are on your way.  Keep it up!

Patrick


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## phoenix05 (Aug 26, 2009)

Day two was pretty good. I think the first session was probably a little harder, but finishing with deadlifts wiped me out. I can see why you don't pair that up on the same day as squats now! My only issue at this stage with them is my grip. I broke my thumb earlier this year, and this is one exercise that is pushing my grip to the limits. There was a few times i nearly lost the bar doing deadlifts. Any pointers? I'm thinking of going the mixed grip next time to see if that helps.

It's been a long time since i've felt like i actually worked my back. Even back a few years ago when i was doing this regularly i never actually felt like i'd pushed my back very far. But today I'm feeling it all over my back. It's nice 

I'm eating well below my maintenance calories. I was curious as to what is too low? I don't know why, but I don't get as uncomfortable as some people when they are eating less, but i want to know how far is too far. 

Any thoughts?


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## T_man (Aug 26, 2009)

about 500-700 calories is the general figure i've read not to go under, but you can still make losses with even 300 so it depends on whether you want to drop fat fast or preserve more muscle.

Deadlifts are a great exercise, I did them too today after some lunges and I was stoked! I did them today with the mixed grip for the first time and it was still tough to keep a grip but I went 10kg more than my previous times and I managed to keep it steady for 8 reps.

When the bar goes dead, if you just take that 0.2 seconds to readjust your hands slightly for a better grip it could work.


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## gtbmed (Aug 26, 2009)

What type of stance and grip do you use?


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## phoenix05 (Aug 26, 2009)

I'm definitely more than 500-700 calories under each day. It doesn't really worry me about being hungry some of the time, i'm more worried about what it does phisically. So far i have lost a lot of weight, and it seems to be mostly fat, so I'm happy and won't change anything just yet. Unless it is really bad eating that few calories.

I didn't really think about the stance with the deadlift. I just got my feet about shoulder width apart and followed what i read on exrx. As for grip, i held the bar underneath it. Not sure the exact terminology though.


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## jmorrison (Sep 9, 2009)

Just aim for 2-3lbs of weight loss per week.  Anymoer than that and you are probably wrecking your muscle.  Track your weightloss and modify your calories accordingly.

How is it going?


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## phoenix05 (Sep 9, 2009)

Things have been going along fantastic so far. The workouts themselves are really challenging. I get to a certain point in every workout that i get a bit light headed, but i guess that's to be expected. I have my BF % checked again on the 22nd of this month so I'm pretty excited about seeing where that has come.

I remember starting thinking about losing the fat a while ago and i was 230 pounds! I checked on my home scales and I've now hit 202 pounds. I'm very happy with that and am curious about the BF% as well as muscle loss.

I've increased the weights progressively as i've gone along too which is good news. I was happy if i could just maintain the strength while I'm losing the fat, but it seems to be increasing. 

The diet has been pretty flawless. I haven't had one meal that i've gone off the plan with. It's been fine up until this week, but i've started to get cravings over the last few days. If i get to my goal BF% on the 22nd, i might be treating myself to a cheat day or two.

I feel like things are going really well. I probably have a bit more time than when i first though, and still may have around 11-12 weeks left before i leave so that's a good thing for me.


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## phoenix05 (Sep 29, 2009)

So here's an update. As i said in another thread i had some back issues over the last few weeks which has stalled my progress. 

I've just finished up getting it all checked out and x-rayed etc. I know what's wrong now, and it's not serious and easily managed and won't affect my training so that's a big relief. Back pain is not fun.

Anyway, i haven't been to get my BF % done for this month because of the injury and I'm happy to leave it that way. I've bought the UD2.0 and am planning that out right now. I'm going to start next Monday and see how i go. 

One thing i did notice is the HUGE amount of carbs during the carb loading phase. I'm wondering how it's possible to actually eat the amount it says. I've been doing up my diet for next week when i start and i can't really find enough carbs to eat so much. I'm using pasta, rice etc to try and get it up, but the numbers are massive.

How have other people done this?


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## phoenix05 (Oct 20, 2009)

phoenix05 said:


> One thing i did notice is the HUGE amount of carbs during the carb loading phase. I'm wondering how it's possible to actually eat the amount it says. I've been doing up my diet for next week when i start and i can't really find enough carbs to eat so much. I'm using pasta, rice etc to try and get it up, but the numbers are massive.
> 
> How have other people done this?



I thought i'd throw another update out there, (I'm not sure it's very interesting to anyone but me though!)

I did two weeks of UD2.0 and just can't commit to the strictness of the diet right now. I had some success and felt like i achieved something out of it, but i just can't give the time to something like that at the moment. So I'm back aiming for around 500-700 calorie deficit in my diet and I'm lifting 3-4 times a week.

I hit 194 pounds yesterday and am very happy with that so far. My goal is around 178 i think. Depending on a few different things, but i've never really been below 185 so if i manage to get to my goals i'd be very very happy. 

I'm going for another BF test in 2-3 weeks, so hopefully i get to see how much muscle i've lost at the same time.

I started back after the UD2.0 routine on Monday of this week and was lifting a little bit heavier than when i first started, so I'm happy that i haven't lost any strength. Hopefully that correlates to not losing muscle as well!

Actually that's something I've wondered about. If i increase my strength, or at least maintain it, does that automatically mean i must be adding muscle? Or at the very least maintaining it? Or can you actually lose muscle and gain strength?

So that's where I'm at so far. I'm enjoying being back on a diet that i can mix my food around on, instead of one so strict! Hopefully i can continue losing the fat.


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