# 5,000 calorie diet, First cycle



## ManInBlack (Feb 4, 2011)

My current stats:

24 years old
6 feet tall
208-210 pounds
13-15% bodyfat
training consistently for 5 years

Ok so I am hoping to start my first cycle which will be a test cyp only cycle. Just waiting to get my PCT on hand. Anyways I have been eating right around 5,000 cals a day for a while now and have managed to get up to 210 pounds. I have read that it is common to diet down, or eat less in preparation for a cycle?? Maybe I am wrong. Basically I am asking if I should lower my cals and everything for about a month before the cycle and then when i start the cycle jump back on to my 5k bulk diet... is this right? The daily carb intake on the diet is around 550 grams of carbs, 320-340 grams protein and around 165 grams of fat. Any help would be appreciated, thanks to all who respond.


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## juggernaut (Feb 4, 2011)

Why 5000 calories? At the most, all you really need to even maintain a weight of 210 is about 3100 calories a day. Add to that a 10-20% surplus of calories and you're still not approaching all that much let alone 5000 calories. Your idea is flawed. Go back and think again. Trust me you're going to be sorry in the long run.

Check your math. It's completely fucked. On cycle, shoot for 1.5g per pound of lean mass for protein. You can consider carb cycling as your first option to cut AND bulk later. Or you can go keto (ckd style) and cut and bulk as well. I've done this on several clients both ways and they both work. If you've been fat before, your better bet is to use keto as your cut and bulk agent. 

If you're attempting a bulk cycle at 15% fat, you're going to get fatter. Bigger and fatter and you'll be dealing with estrogen problems at that higher rate of fat. My suggestion would be to cut first, save the cycle, when you get leaner, say 8-10% bulk then using 1.5g of protein and keep fats high (,6 x lean mass is a good starting point).


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## ManInBlack (Feb 4, 2011)

Dang i didnt realize I was that far in the wrong direction. I can say that I have never been fat before. Juggernaut, what if i were to post up my complete diet and then you tell me exactly what do drop out of it or what changes to make in order to drop bodyfat...Would this be alright?


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## ManInBlack (Feb 4, 2011)

Breakfast (7am)

1 cup milk
2 cups oats
1 scoop whey
half cup walnuts

Pre Workout (9am)

half scoop progainer
4 ounces chicken
2 cups rice

Post Workout Shake (12pm)

2 scoops whey
dextrose
gatorade

Meal (2pm)

5 ounces chicken
2 cups rice
2 peanut butter sandwiches

Meal (5pm)

1 can tuna
3 eggs
1 cup steamfresh vegetables
1 cup whole wheat pasta
half cup rice

Before Bed (10pm)

1 cup cottage cheese
half cup walnuts


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## juggernaut (Feb 4, 2011)

ManInBlack said:


> Dang i didnt realize I was that far in the wrong direction. I can say that I have never been fat before. Juggernaut, what if i were to post up my complete diet and then you tell me exactly what do drop out of it or what changes to make in order to drop bodyfat...Would this be alright?



Calculate your grams of protein, carbs and fat. Give us those numbers instead. Use fitday or fatsecret for this. It will give you a truer idea of what you eat. Depending on which path you want to take, I can give you an idea for your next move to cut or bulk-but my suggestion is to cut first.


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## ManInBlack (Feb 4, 2011)

The thing is that when i started weighlifting i just wanted to bulk up, to be honest, that is all i have ever done, i started at around 170 pounds and have never EVER done a cut so I have no idea where to even begin. I would really really love nothing more than to get down to 10% bodyfat so that I can begin my cycle, because everything will be here within the next month. Any help bro would be greatly appreciated because now I just feel completely confused, much more than usual.


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## ManInBlack (Feb 4, 2011)

Juggernaut, I typed that exact diet above into Livestrong.com's daily plate which is a nutrition tracker application that they have


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## ManInBlack (Feb 4, 2011)

it came out to 552 grams carbs, 338 grams of protein and 168 grams of fat, atleast that is what it said......4,936 calories.


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## ManInBlack (Feb 4, 2011)

I went back to live strong and put that I would like to lose 1.5 pounds per week and they shot me back with this figure....2900 calories a day.....do you think this a good number or is 1.5 pounds per week too much?


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## juggernaut (Feb 4, 2011)

ManInBlack said:


> it came out to 552 grams carbs, 338 grams of protein and 168 grams of fat, atleast that is what it said......4,936 calories.


Waaaay too much.
Keto or carb cycling? Choose one and stick with it.


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## ManInBlack (Feb 4, 2011)

well at the moment i am TRYING to construct a cutting diet that will help me to get down to around 10 percent bodyfat so that I will be better prepared for my cycle.......how does 2520 cals a day sound...210 grams protein, 200 grams carbs, 98 grams of fat sound? am i still way off? im really trying here, i have never cut before


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## ManInBlack (Feb 4, 2011)

Alright, here is a diet i constructed. I came up with the figure 2520 cals a day. 

Breakfast: 3 whole eggs/3 egg whites/1 cup oats/1 cup milk
690 calories...19.5g fat...73g carbs...55 g protein

workout

Post workout shake: 1 scoop whey/gatorade
250 calories...37g carbs...24g protein

Lunch: 4 ounces chicken/peanut butter sandwich on whole wheat
380 calories...17.5g fat...23g carbs...37g protein

Dinner: 2 cans of tuna/ 1/4cup walnuts/1.5 cups brown rice
619 calories...23g fat...57g carbs...55g protein

Before Bed: 1 cup lowfat cottage cheese/2.5 tbsp natural peanutbutter
417 calories...24g fat...19g carbs...33g protein

totals:

209g carbs
205g protein
88g fat


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## ManInBlack (Feb 4, 2011)

Well I have gathered that 1.5g protein per pound of bodyweight is a good rule of thumb so i changed the diet. Here are the new totals

Protein 300g
Carbs   170g
Fats     90g

7am: 3eggs/3 egg whites/ 0.5 cup oats/1 cup milk
workout
10am: 2 scoops whey/ 1 gatorade
12pm: 8 ounces chicken/peanut butter sandwich/
3pm: 6 ounces chicken
5:30 2 cans tuna/1 cup rice/ 1/4cup walnuts
Before Bed: 1 cup cottage cheese/3tbsp. peanut butter/half scoop whey

the reason i eat at 5:30 and then not again until i go to bed which is around 10 is because i go into work at 6 and there is no way i can eat while i am there.......So does this look a bit better?


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## juggernaut (Feb 4, 2011)

What does your training look like? 
You obviously want carbs. That's fine. If you multiply your lean mass x 1.2g-since you arent juicing right now (I'm assuming),  according to your percentage it leaves you with 175lbs of lean mass, you'll need 209g of protein. 

If you were to do carb cycling, do this:

For a loss of of +/- 1lb per week

Average daily macros: 
209g of protein, 
94g of fat, and 
*195g* of carbohydrate, 
2,480 calories in total.

*(4) Liftingdays:* 
209g of protein, 
*87g* of fat, and 
*270g* of carbohydrate, 
2,693 calories in total.

*(3) Rest/Cardio ONLY days:*
209g of protein, 
*104g* of fat, and 
*105g *of carbohydrate, 
2,197 calories in total."


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## juggernaut (Feb 4, 2011)

One other thing; center the carbs around the workout-both pre and post workout. My personal preference is to not have any starchy carbs at dinner, but this may be different for you since you may workout around that time.


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## ManInBlack (Feb 4, 2011)

thanks juggernaut


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## ManInBlack (Feb 4, 2011)

Training is 4 days a week and looks something like this

monday: back (horizontal pulling) chest
tuesday: quads, calves, biceps
wednesday: OFF
thursday: back (vertical pulling) shoulders and traps
friday: deadlifts, hamstrings, triceps
weekends: OFF

how should i incorporate the cardio guys? 


oh and abs monday and thursday


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## juggernaut (Feb 4, 2011)

ManInBlack said:


> Training is 4 days a week and looks something like this
> 
> monday: back (horizontal pulling) chest
> tuesday: quads, calves, biceps
> ...



Baby got Back-great routine. Add in cardio but mot much at first. 3 days on your days off is fine. 2 days of HIIT is a good add-in too.


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## ManInBlack (Feb 6, 2011)

another question....when calculating up the totals, for example, protein....would you count the protein in say bread, or oats or nuts and peanut butter? or only the protein from sources (that are in my diet) such as the chicken, they whey, the cottage cheese and stuff like that?


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## GFR (Feb 6, 2011)

338 grams of protein is crazy, you do not need more than 250g.

As for calories it depends on your metabolism, figure out what you need pre cycle to grow without gaining fat, then add 500 cals to it. That should be enough.


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## Built (Feb 6, 2011)

It's not crazy. I eat over 220g protein daily and I weigh 145 lbs.

MIB, how long did it take you to get to 220 lbs, and what weight were you when you started?


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## GFR (Feb 6, 2011)

Built said:


> It's not crazy. I eat over 220g protein daily and I weigh 145 lbs.
> 
> MIB, how long did it take you to get to 220 lbs, and what weight were you when you started?


It is crazy and you illustrate the point. 

"I do it so it's good"

Nope, it is unhealthy and unscientific. prove me wrong, I dare you.....post one real scientific article that says a 210lb man needs ( for any reason at all) 340g of protein a day.


By the way I ate 150-175g of protein a day at 255, down to 234 to look like this.









I guess your tiny body needs 2x the protein mine does..LMAO


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## Built (Feb 6, 2011)

Where did I say he *needed *it? I only said it's not nuts. It's also not unhealthy. 

I eat more protein than my body requires because it suppresses appetite better than carb or fat. Former fatties are kinda stuck with that one. 

I would ask you why you think it's unhealthy.


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## Built (Feb 6, 2011)

PS you're yummy.


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## GFR (Feb 6, 2011)

Built said:


> Where did I say he *needed *it? I only said it's not nuts. It's also not unhealthy.


You said it was not crazy, you failed to post any data to support your opinion. 


You, a tiny 120lb skinny woman eating 220g of protein a day, me a 235+ man who eats 150-175g of protein a day.


I can name others: Mike Mentzer, Jeff King Bill Pearl....all ate 200g or less of protein a day and all looked better that any member of this site.

So riddle me this einstein, how does this kid need more protein than Mike Mentzer, Bill Pearl or Jeff king?


I know I look like shit for a 40 year old who trained and dieted for only 8 weeks after a full year off...I guess if I had eaten 400g of protein a day I would have looked much better.


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## Built (Feb 6, 2011)

Oh wow. Okay, hold up here. 

First, I'm not 120 lbs. I have 120 lbs of lean mass - I weigh 145 lbs. 

Second, I used to be fat. Former fatties have a devil of a time with appetite. Normal satiety cues - the kind that work on healthy-lean people who have never been fat - become permanently uncoupled from metabolism. Most of us gain back what we lost because we don't adjust for this. 

Protein is more satiating than carb or fat when this happens, which is why I eat a lot more of my calories from protein than my body needs as a source of amino acids. I'd be delighted to be able to maintain my weight some other way, but so far, this is the only thing that works. I've maintained the loss for ten years now; so far, I'm the only person I've met who has managed to do this although I'm sure there are a few others out there. 

Mentzer and Pearl used a lot of gear (I can't speak for King, not familiar with him), and neither of 'em was ever fat. Gear enhances partitioning tremendously, and never having been fat has a huge impact on satiety cues. 

Healthy normals feel satiety from carbohydrate because of the insulin response and its impact upon leptin. 

Dieted-down fatties often don't share this response. We just don't have the genetics of Mentzer or Pearl. 

There are numerous threads on here about "safe" levels of protein. It's pretty easy to do a search, but here's one such thread, for your reference. 
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/d...-amount-daily-protein-intake.html#post2122193

Again, I didn't say he needed this much protein; just that it isn't crazy. 

You seriously look yummy. You'd be easy to cook for - I'd get to eat most of the steak!


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## GFR (Feb 6, 2011)

Built said:


> Oh wow. Okay, hold up here.
> 
> First, I'm not 120 lbs. I have 120 lbs of lean mass - I weigh 145 lbs.
> 
> ...


You must be tall then.

Using "gear" makes you need even more protein....that proves my point. And this guy is on a cycle so that proves it even more.  


The flattery is nice but that has nothing to do with the topic on hand.


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## Built (Feb 6, 2011)

I'm 5'7".

I'm not sure what your problem is, george. I didn't say he needed this much protein. Only that it wasn't crazy. 

Gear increases the rate of protein synthesis, and protects lean mass during a deficit. Gear users can eat a lot less protein than non-gear users and still maintain muscle while running a deficit. 

But outside of satiety cues, I'm not talking about need. You are. 

I'm saying the level of protein the OP suggested isn't crazy, and I'm basing this statement on a great deal of scientific evidence, some of which I cited in the link I gave you. 

You are saying it isn't necessary, and you're absolutely correct. 

I _think _you're suggesting it's not safe, which is why I offered up the thread discussing safe levels of protein. 

In a surplus, the need for protein is not so dire - the risk of going nitrogen-negative is greatly reduced with excess calories coming in. In a deficit, the need increases, to protect the body from catabolism. I'm sure you know all this, but hell, I'm on a roll here.  AAS protects from this of course. Users require less protein for this to happen while cutting. 

I did not suggest there is a need for this much protein. I'm quite clear on the fact that beyond a certain point, excess protein just becomes expensive  carbohydrate - carbohydrate us former fatties find more satiating, but  that's the only real need here. Were we to not mind feeling ravenously  hungry all the time, we'd be fine on lower protein intake.

Why do you think guys on gear need more protein than guys who aren't on gear? Cutting, this isn't true.


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## Built (Feb 6, 2011)

GeorgeForemanRules said:


> The flattery is nice but that has nothing to do with the topic on hand.



You're the one posting up pix, cutie.


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## juggernaut (Feb 6, 2011)

I think you guys scared him away.


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## patricio (Feb 7, 2011)

Hey, GeorgeForeman, no need to get angry like that!!! We all know there are many ways to get there. But high protein diet has been great for some of us in terms of appetite supression and weight loss keeping our muscle, as for bulking up. 
Cheers


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## ManInBlack (Feb 7, 2011)

Built said:


> It's not crazy. I eat over 220g protein daily and I weigh 145 lbs.
> 
> MIB, how long did it take you to get to 220 lbs, and what weight were you when you started?


 


hey built.....actually when i started i was around 165 i think that was roughly 5 years ago but i have really been training hard and the right way for the past 3 years or so


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## ManInBlack (Feb 7, 2011)

from information i have gathered here and around the net i have decided on this....

Lifting days: 275g protein, 260g carbs, 100g fats roughly 3000cals daily

Non Lifting days: 270g protein, 195g carbs, 100g fats roughly 2700cals daily

plan on dropping cals as needed


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## ManInBlack (Feb 7, 2011)

Im really not sure what weight i want to get down to but i would just feel better if i could lose some pounds and then when i start my cycle to bulk up as clean as possible......that will be another thread all in itself i believe......would you guys suggest like a 40/40/20 for a bulk?


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## juggernaut (Feb 7, 2011)

ManInBlack said:


> from information i have gathered here and around the net i have decided on this....
> 
> Lifting days: 275g protein, 260g carbs, 100g fats roughly 3000cals daily
> 
> ...



What made you decide on this plan? How did you arrive at these numbers?


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## ManInBlack (Feb 7, 2011)

man i dont know....ive put together several since the other day and cant seem to stick to one....i thought i was somewhat educated with how to eat properly but these past few days have thrown my ass for a real loop


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## ManInBlack (Feb 7, 2011)

and for the protein intake....it seems that most people say to go with 1.5 per pound of bodyweight which at 210 would be 315g, or do they mean per pound of LBM which would put me around 260


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## Built (Feb 7, 2011)

Lbm.


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## ManInBlack (Feb 7, 2011)

well ill be a monkeys uncle.......i ALWAYS used my total bodyweight, i never really saw where anyone elaborated and said LBM, shiiiiiiiittttt oh well...my protein intake should be pretty good then at right around 1.5 per pound of LBM


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## Built (Feb 7, 2011)

If you're really lean, it won't matter much.


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## GFR (Feb 7, 2011)

Built said:


> You're the one posting up pix, cutie.


And I am not even posting nude ones yet


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## GFR (Feb 7, 2011)

patricio said:


> Hey, GeorgeForeman, no need to get angry like that!!!


I am all about passion, my anger is only second to my love.


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