# Pre-workout carbs and post-workout protein?



## Logman (Jun 18, 2011)

Greets,

Doing well since starting up again but I have a few questions on eating around workouts.  Done a lot searching and some people recommend eating carbs before a work-out and some people recommend eating carbs after.

I've been eating a few carbs before but feeling gassed during workouts somedays.  And sometimes fine during the workout but exhausted to the point of collapse after (i.e. need horizontal time badly).

So I'm feeling the banana before workout and whey protein shake after aren't quite cutting it.  I sometimes notice an ammonia smell in my sweat which I have found to mean not enough carbs before working out.

Would a large serving of yoghurt, a banana and an apple pre-workout be good?  Or should I get some kind of supplement like Jack3d and do the yoghurt, banana, apple with Protein after the workout.

I sometimes box in the evenings about 4 hours after a workout.  Yesterdays workout was brutal, and even with an hours sleep and dinner I was zapped for energy and could hardly get through a round.  As I box I also run a lot.  So yea, big energy issues and could use some advice from real people. 

Cheers.


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## LAM (Jun 18, 2011)

how many meals do you get in between waking up and exercising?

upon waking up in the morning the body is in a hypoglycemic state, blood sugar is low.  this is a less than optimum environment for exercise as the body can not generate enough energy from stored fats to fuel the workout.  you really need to eat a decent amount of carbs before early am exercise to have enough energy.  a matrix of simple and complex carbs is the best.  try something like a protein shake with some ripe banana's and some whole oats like 1/2 cup.


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## Built (Jun 18, 2011)

Can you describe the rest of your diet - calories, grams protein, carb and fat - and your current training? Also what is the state of your conditioning? How much do you weigh, and how much bodyfat are you carrying?


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## Logman (Jun 18, 2011)

I weigh around 179kg (174lb), 39, conditioning is pretty good and the omly thing that holds me up is pains in hips due to too much MA kicking in my earlier years.  I try and run 5km every day.  This calculator tells me I have 18.6% body fat at 174lb and 34" waist:

Body Fat Calculator

Normal day:

8am: Wake up, Orange Juice, Coffee.
10am: 4 Scrambled Egg on white toast (sometimes brown)
11am: 5km jog or 30 mins Cycling and Sprints.
1pm: Half block of Tofu or 2 baked potatoes with Tuna or Cheese Sandwich.
2.30 - 3pm: Weights
3.30pm: Post-workout Protein Shake
6-7pm: Dinner (various)
6-9pm: (Differing days) Boxing, Karate
10pm: Protein Shake (with Vit D and Fish Oil).

Every other day I hit weights, I try and run every day and have Karate/Boxing 4 nights a week.  Karate is not a problem but energy levels during Boxing (twice a week) are a big problem since I upped my workouts and running.

Average day (minus beer):

http://japanreef.com/diet/June-4a.png

http://japanreef.com/diet/June-4b.png

I hit weights every 2 days.  I have 2 routines so I'm hitting the same muscles every 4 days:

Routine 1:

Bench Press (dropset every other workout)
Shoulder Shrugs
Bicep Curls (usually BB, sometimes throw in Hammers and Preachers - often dropsetted)
Upright Row (with bar, supersetted with dumbells a lot)

Routine 2:

Squats
Deadlifts
Military Press
Situps

Few things to point out:

I have weak shoulders.  Both have been separated due to snowboarding as a kid.  Grade 6 separation (the worst) on one with no ligaments connecting collar bone to shoulder at all (even after surgery) and minor separation on the other. This means I can't lift super heavy with the bench or shoulder pressed.  Can't really upright row or shoulder fly or any exercise that brings elbows up perpendicular to body with weight.  I actually do perform shoulder flies every day with a small weight (2,3,4kg) just for general rehabilitation as it helps me with boxing.

Sometimes I'll do 5 or 6 rounds on the heavy bag before hitting the weights.  This is HIIT by its very definition.

My ultimate goal is to be 170lb and 10% (which is a 30" waist).  I can easily cut to a 30" waist but I'll be 15lb lighter so I'm looking for 15lb muscle.  I'm bulking right now - about 1lb a week (thanks to input from you, Built, in another thread) but dammmmmmmmmn, bulking is like 20 times harder than cutting.

If energy supplements can help I'd like to lean towards that rather than more food.  So thinking (hoping) the Yoghurt, Banana, Apple, Protein, Carb Drink combo before and after workouts and boxing can help.

Thanks for the help.


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## Built (Jun 18, 2011)

Okay your bodyfat is probably not that high. That calculator told me I'm 26% bodyfat and I happen to know I'm 17% because I've had three DEXA scans and I know my lean mass. 

Your diet looks like you're getting plenty of protein and fat; your fibre could come up a bit and I'd ditch soy and all fruit juices. 

I don't know why you run every day - it won't help you lean out. Is your weight stable at your current intake? Are you dropping, gaining, or maintaining?
Edit: you said you're bulking. I don't know if I'd recommend running daily, but on a bulk it probably won't cause you harm. 

PS I feel ya' on the shoulder issues. My right shoulder causes me nothing but grief, old injuries suck.


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## Built (Jun 18, 2011)

Okay, I see a problem. You're running in the AM, then training just a few hours later. Try training without running in the AM. Do the run later in the day, or skip it entirely on training days. 

What do you find hard about bulking?


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## Logman (Jun 18, 2011)

I run for stamina building and that only because I box and training 3 rounds shadow boxing, 3 rounds on mits and 3 rounds sparring requires a lot of stamina.  I would like to find a diet that allows me to train and gain as well as run daily and do boxing/karate in teh evenings.  If it's beyond my capabilities I can certainly cut out the runs some days.

I find it hard to eat a lot.  Even when physically hungry I often lack the mental will to actually eat.

Don't you take care on eating carbs before workouts or cardio, or carbs after or something?


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## Built (Jun 18, 2011)

Logman said:


> I run for stamina building and that only because I box and training 3 rounds shadow boxing, 3 rounds on mits and 3 rounds sparring requires a lot of stamina.  I would like to find a diet that allows me to train and gain as well as run daily and do boxing/karate in teh evenings.  If it's beyond my capabilities I can certainly cut out the runs some days.


Got it - you need the conditioning. You're overtraining though - you're losing your stamina rather than building it.   





Logman said:


> I find it hard to eat a lot.  Even when physically hungry I often lack the mental will to actually eat.


I don't understand. 





Logman said:


> Don't you take care on eating carbs before workouts or cardio, or carbs after or something?


I'm not sure what you're getting at - I didn't say you shouldn't. But orange juice is junk food; it's liquid candy and no better for you than Coca Cola. Soy can lower your testosterone, as can overtraining.


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## Logman (Jun 18, 2011)

What I meant is that even though I can be hungry the thought of eating is not appealing.  I have to force myself to eat.  Plus 4 scrambled egg on toast could easily last me 6 hours yet on this bulk I need to eat after 3.  Eating a lot is just hard.

So you reckon cut out the tofu and just go with potatoes and tuna or a cheese granary bread sandwich.  I'm not that keen on tofu but it has ridulously high protein levels.

As for orange juice, you'll notice I don't eat first thing in the morning and orange juice and coffee give me the sugar hit I need to start the engines in teh morning.

I also noticed that the sports drink I generally take to boxing has just 19 calories per 100ml whereas orange juice has 47 calories per 100ml.  I was thinking about taking a bottle of orange juice to boxing instead.  My energies levels there are a big concern for me.

To reach my goal of 170lbs at 10% do you have any ideas about how to get there?  I was thinking of bulking to about 185lb (3 months), and cutting to 170lb (2 months) and then repeating.  No idea if this is advisable or not.


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## LAM (Jun 18, 2011)

distance running has an appetite suppressing effect on many by suppressing the hormone ghrelin.

your diet is also low in fats, low fat diets = low test production


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## Merkaba (Jun 18, 2011)

Wow. Your diet sucks for the amount of work you're doing.  

Eat.  And you're eating low fat too as mentioned above.  I mean if it's a cultural or economical thing and you can't or refuse to eat more then you need to cut back in your training...or do some serious meditations.   This is why you feel "zapped", Shit dude your body runs on what you give it!  Do you know how many calories your heart alone burns a day?

Welcome to the world of serious training.  It's good that food is not appealing to you!  Some of us have the opposite problem.  I just at pizza hut and cupcakes in the middle of a cut.  At some point we have to realize that food is fuel.  I don't like the taste of gas but i have to pump in in the car for it to go.  If you don't like eating you need denser calorie foods so you can eat less.  Olive oil, fats, good fats, meat.  My "bulking" peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are 500 calories a piece.  Tofu is overrated in my book. Sports drinks too.  You need to replace the tofu with some real food.  

And yea, any time Built writes something, consider that Golden.


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## Logman (Jun 18, 2011)

Problem is I'm a vegetarian so I don't eat meat.  Never seen oatmeal here in Japan.  Do have some peanut butter though.  Would really appreciate some tips in improving my diet.


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## theCaptn' (Jun 18, 2011)

full vego, or do you eat fish and small children?


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## Built (Jun 18, 2011)

Logman said:


> As for orange juice, you'll notice I don't eat first thing in the morning and orange juice and coffee give me the sugar hit I need to start the engines in teh morning.


I understand, but it's the wrong kind of sugar. There's too much fructose in fruit juice - it has the same amount as the HFCS-sweetened Coca Cola I mentioned. If you want sugar, get some dextrose and make your own lemonaid with water, dextrose and a squeeze of lemon juice. 


theCaptn' said:


> full vego, or do you eat fish and small children?


Good question - I believe Logman at least eats fish. (We'll work on the small children thing)

Logman, lean on fish, dairy and eggs for your protein. A bit of soy won't kill you, but I wouldn't eat it daily. And like Merkaba suggested, up your fats for easy calories. Olive oil is a particularly good choice, since it assists with testosterone production.


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## Logman (Jun 19, 2011)

Yah, not full vego.  I eat fish every evening pretty much.

So that fructose is going straight to the belly, eh?  I'll cut down on that.  I've heard you mention putting olive oil in a protein shake.  How much should I add?  A teasppon, tablespoon etc?

The reason I started this line of question is that lately when I work out and box my sweat is stinking of ammonia.  This lead me to read it means a lack of carbs so I'm burning amino acids.  Just now I had a pretty light workout of military press (5 sets), hammer curls (4 sets) and deadlifts (4 sets).  45 mins before the workout I had a banana, apple and yoghurt, a pretty massive bowl, and my sweat still smells of ammonia.  Working out at home is not a problem but no-one likes to smell of cat piss at the gym.  Any ideas?


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## Built (Jun 19, 2011)

Try starches rather than fruit. White rice with some sort of fatty fish, for example. 

Burning amino acids isn't a problem if you remain nitrogen-positive, btw.


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## Logman (Jun 19, 2011)

Aye, will try that tomorrow before boxing.

Stinking of Ammonia is a big problem for others at my gym I'm sure.


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## juggernaut (Jun 19, 2011)

Built said:


> Try starches rather than fruit. White rice with some sort of fatty fish, for example.
> 
> Burning amino acids isn't a problem if you remain nitrogen-positive, btw.



fish before a workout would make me puke. I prefer chicken breast and baked potato with cinnamon sugar sprinkled, or if no time, oatmeal and whey mixed together.


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## theCaptn' (Jun 19, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> fish before a workout would make me puke. I prefer chicken breast and baked potato with cinnamon sugar sprinkled, or if no time, oatmeal and whey mixed together.


 
oatmeal and whey is a real easy meal when you have a morning WO to smash.


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## juggernaut (Jun 19, 2011)

theCaptn' said:


> oatmeal and whey is a real easy meal when you have a morning WO to smash.



Absolutely. I love All Day Whey by Beyond Nutrition...(shameless plug), but the flavor is so freakin good!


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## theCaptn' (Jun 19, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> Absolutely. I love All Day Whey by Beyond Nutrition...(shameless plug), but the flavor is so freakin good!


 
Throw in a handful of walnuts big fella


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## juggernaut (Jun 19, 2011)

theCaptn' said:


> Throw in a handful of walnuts big fella



helllz yeah!


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jun 19, 2011)

*Pre Work Meal/Beverage*



LAM said:


> upon waking up in the morning the body is in a hypoglycemic state, blood sugar is low.



*Carbs = Elevated Insulin*

Hypoglycemic is a bit overstated.  You insulin level is low, which provides some training benefits. 

*Insulin Blocks Lypolysis*

Elevated insulin levels blocks body fat from being burned.  



LAM said:


> this is a less than optimum environment for exercise as the body can not generate enough energy from stored fats to fuel the workout.  you really need to eat a decent amount of carbs before early am exercise to have enough energy.



*Plenty of Muscle Glycogen*

Upon waking, you have pleanty of glucose (stored in the muscle as glycogen) to "generate enough energy" to have a good workout.  

Along with the glycogen utilized for energy, more body fat will be burned during your workout. 

Kenny Croxdale


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## Built (Jun 19, 2011)

Kenny, thank you for that.


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## Chubby (Jun 19, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> *Plenty of Muscle Glycogen*
> 
> Upon waking, *you have pleanty of glucose *(stored in the muscle as glycogen) to "generate enough energy" to have a good workout.


I thought glycogen is depleted in the morning, no.


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## theCaptn' (Jun 19, 2011)

fasted AM cardio is the best way to drop BF


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## Merkaba (Jun 19, 2011)

theCaptn' said:


> fasted AM cardio is the best way to drop BF



??.... and muscle


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## theCaptn' (Jun 19, 2011)

Merkaba said:


> ??.... and muscle


 

???   . . . gears + BCAAs ??

I'm talking 20-30mins here, not hours!


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## Built (Jun 19, 2011)

There are benefits to be had from AM cardio, provided it's not intense. Wake up, go for a walk, come home and eat.


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## theCaptn' (Jun 19, 2011)

Built said:


> There are benefits to be had from AM cardio, provided it's not intense. Wake up, go for a walk, come home and eat.


 
Mines pretty much watch CNN on the treadmill: enough to sweat it up and get my metabolism cranking


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jun 20, 2011)

Chubby said:


> I thought glycogen is depleted in the morning, no.



Chubby,

The amount of glycogen burned/utilized is directly proportional to the intensity of the activity.  

High intensity activities utilize glycogen and less body fat.

Low level activities utilize more of your body fat for energy and less glycogenb (carbs).

Sleeping requires very little energy.    

Thus, sleeping utilizes more body fat and next to no glycogen (carbs).   

Kenny Croxdale


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## Built (Jun 20, 2011)

I can't rep you again, but another great post.


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## Chubby (Jun 20, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> Chubby,
> 
> *The amount of glycogen burned/utilized is directly proportional to the intensity of the activity. *
> 
> ...


I always had a question mark in my head about that.  That makes very good sense.  So I guess taking bedtime shake and doing fasted cardio to burn fat have no benifits.  
Thanks, Kenny.


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## Built (Jun 20, 2011)

Chubby said:


> So I guess taking bedtime shake and doing fasted cardio to burn fat have no benifits.



How do you get that out of Kenny's post?


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## Chubby (Jun 20, 2011)

Built said:


> How do you get that out of Kenny's post?


I was using common sense. If body is going be using fat for fuel, then why need bedtime shake, and also if there is already a lot of glycogen in the body, don't you think body is going to use it for fuel before using fat for fuel in the morning?


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## Built (Jun 20, 2011)

Chubby said:


> I was using common sense. If body is going be using fat for fuel, then why need bedtime shake,


For appetite control? For the extra protein?


Chubby said:


> and also if there is already a lot of glycogen in the body, don't you think body is going to use it for fuel before using fat for fuel in the morning?


Not for low intensity activity, like walking. Fasted, you don't have to contend with the lipolysis-blunting effect of insulin. 

For weights, yes. I sometimes train fasted in the AM and I'm fine. I just eat afterward.


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## Chubby (Jun 20, 2011)

Built said:


> For appetite control? For the extra protein?


Neither. Just don't want to eat if don't have to.



> Not for low intensity activity, like walking. Fasted, you don't have to contend with the lipolysis-blunting effect of insulin.
> 
> For weights, yes. I sometimes train fasted in the AM and I'm fine. I just eat afterward.


Okay, thanks for the advice.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jun 20, 2011)

Chubby said:


> I was using common sense. If body is going be using fat for fuel, then why need bedtime shake, and also if there is already a lot of glycogen in the body, don't you think body is going to use it for fuel before using fat for fuel in the morning?



Chubby,

*Bed Time Meal/Shake*

While fat is the predominate source of fuel as you sleep, some amino acids and glycogen are burned well.  

Think of saving account.  You savings account grows when you make deposits into your "muscle saving account". 

Any with drawals from you account means you you "muscle savings account" takes longer to grow and become bigger.  

*[UTime Release Bed Time Protein[/U]*

A bed time protein meal/snack continues to provide you muscle with amino acids to insure no "with drawals" occur from you "muscle saving account. 

Caseinate is considered to be an anti-catabolic protein.  That because it is time released for your 8 hour sleep fasting period.  Thus, iit continues to feed you muscles during your 8  hour "sleep fast".  

*Gluconeogenesis*

Protein can also be converted to glycogen.  Thus, insuring the muscle g;ycogen it "topped off".  

*High Intensity Fuel*

Goycogen is the primary fuel source for high intensity activities.  The more demanding the activity, the more glycogen is used. 

*Low Intensity Fuel*

The lower the intensity of the activity, the less glycogen is used. 

Sleeping is about as low as you can get on the activity scale.  Thus, only a very small amount of glycogen is used.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## Chubby (Jun 20, 2011)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> Chubby,
> 
> *Bed Time Meal/Shake*
> 
> ...


Thank you, Kenny.


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