# for Gaz - 20 rep squat program



## Phineas (Feb 25, 2010)

I just checked out your website yesterday for the first time and was very impressed! You really know your stuff! I'm definitely bookmarking that site.

I was intrigued by the 20 rep squat program. I think I'll try after I complete my current program in late-March (followed by 5-7 days deloading).

I have some questions, though.

(1.) You say to take your 10-rep weight and do it for one set of 20. I understand this set is about pure will-power and mind-set, but your 10-rep weight would be something like your 11-rep max (except for those who go to failure on every set..). When I do 10 reps on squat (or any exercise), I choose a weight that not only challenges me for those reps but has me by the end near failure...so maybe the 11th or 12th rep would be total failure. So, even if I have all the drive and motivation in the world, how can I surpass this physical stopping point? It's like saying lift your 1-rep max 4 times. How is this actually possible?

(2.) What if I fail, and have to stop at 15 reps? Should I wait a minute and finish the other 5 reps? Should I rest several minutes and try again? Or, is my set over for that session?

(3.) How long can I rest in between reps during the final 10 reps before the intensity is compromised? I figure the intensity must be maintained in order to get the desired stimulus. However, when you think about it, if I were to do 3 set of 10 squats with that weight, I would do a total of 30 reps (10 reps more..) in probably, what, 5 minutes? Now, not that I think the 20 rep would take that long, but when I'm pushing a weight for twice the normal reps I imagine there's going to be unimaginable pain, and I'm probably going to need a pause at the top for the last 10 reps. However, I can't just sit there for 10 seconds in between each one. I might as well just rest. Do you have a timing blueprint for this set that I can follow?

Many thanks, Gaz. I'm not criticizing this program. I want to do it! I just wanted to clarify all these points so I'm doing it right.

Keep up the good work. Love the articles!


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## FMJ (Feb 25, 2010)

I've done the 20 rep squat program before. It's plenty painful but to be honest, it's more a mental limitation than a physical one. I usually got through my first 8 reps as normal then needed to gulp some air and pause a few seconds to get to about 12. Ater that, I usually racked the weight till I could catch my breath. About 20 seconds, then got out another 2 reps and racked it for another 20 or 30 seconds. I did this till I got to the 20 reps. It was the only way I could do it. I don't think theres anything wrong with racking it for less than 30 seconds. You may not have to but I couldn't keep the weight on my back an catch my breath. I had to rack it. As long as you keep the pauses under 30 seconds, I think you lose little intensity. Be prepared for tunnel vision, dizziness and nausea. Oh and those little flicks of light that flash in front of your eyes. 
It's like an acid trip. Funny thing is, quads are so strong, that if my mind didn't give out first, I probably could have done more.


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## CowPimp (Feb 25, 2010)

The 20 rep squat program, and correct me if I'm wrong, calls on using breathing squats.  That is, you get as many as you can until near or at failure.  Then you stand there with the bar on your back taking deep breaths while your legs rest.  You then get another couple of repetitions after 15-30 seconds of rest or whatever it is.  Repeat this until you have hit 20 using about your 10RM.  It takes several minutes as you end up having to rest quite a bit.


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## sprayherup (Feb 25, 2010)

Would you just do one set of the 20 and call it a day for squats?


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## FMJ (Feb 25, 2010)

sprayherup said:


> Would you just do one set of the 20 and call it a day for squats?


 
Yeah, typically, it's just one set and you're done with legs but then you continue on with some other moves like Pullovers, Bent rows, shit like that. Sort of like a full body workout thing. Personally, I found doing 3 normal sets of 10-12 harder because after 10 reps and you take a 90 second rest, your quads really tighten up. Doing another 10 after that, IMO, was harder than just doing the next ten with 30 seconds rest every 2 or 3 reps.
Also, as cowpimp pointed out, you need to catch your breath once you get up there in reps but in my experience, I was sucking so much wind, I just couldn't catch my breath without racking it for a few seconds.


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## Phineas (Feb 25, 2010)

CowPimp said:


> The 20 rep squat program, and correct me if I'm wrong, calls on using breathing squats.  That is, you get as many as you can until near or at failure.  Then you stand there with the bar on your back taking deep breaths while your legs rest.  You then get another couple of repetitions after 15-30 seconds of rest or whatever it is.  Repeat this until you have hit 20 using about your 10RM.  It takes several minutes as you end up having to rest quite a bit.



Given the rests in between reps during the second half of the set, the intensity, while still very high, is not as constant as during a normal set. 

Can you please explain what is going on in the body (muscle cells, motor units, tendons, everything) that makes this process effective? How does this differ from just belting out 3 sets at your 10RM with short rests in between?

FYI -- I'm a firm believer of keeping things short and sweet (within reason...volume has its place, too). I just want to understand the physiology behind this approach; it's very different. One set.

FMJ - did you notice yourself ever pyched out going into the set? I would imagine a lot of pressure being on that one set!


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## FMJ (Feb 25, 2010)

Phineas said:


> FMJ - did you notice yourself ever pyched out going into the set? I would imagine a lot of pressure being on that one set!


 
Definitly, the mentel prep was ridiculous. I wanted the results but I dreaded working for it, I won't lie. It was the only training day I thought about the night before. Of course, actually doing it was never as bad as the mental stress over it. I think a guy like you will really appreciate doing this program Phineas. You have that drive, that need to be challanged.


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## yellowmoomba (Feb 25, 2010)

I've done the 20 rep program a couple times.   It took about 4 sessions (attempts) to hit 20 reps for me.   The first session was 14, then 16, then 17 then 20.   I tried it once a week so it took me about a month to get 20.    Every once in a while I go back to see if I can do it.   I use 225.   So far my max is 26 reps.     It really is mental for me.    I've attempted 275 but only made it to 15 reps before I stopped.   I had a challenge with Stewart14 to see who could do "275 x 15" first.   If you like challenges....it will be fun.   

Just thought I'd share my experience.   Good luck!


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## Phineas (Feb 25, 2010)

FMJ said:


> Definitly, the mentel prep was ridiculous. I wanted the results but I dreaded working for it, I won't lie. It was the only training day I thought about the night before. Of course, actually doing it was never as bad as the mental stress over it. I think a guy like you will really appreciate doing this program Phineas. You have that drive, that need to be challanged.



Awesome! I can't wait for this program! And, thanks for the motivational words!


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## Stewart14 (Feb 25, 2010)

yellowmoomba said:


> I've done the 20 rep program a couple times. It took about 4 sessions (attempts) to hit 20 reps for me. The first session was 14, then 16, then 17 then 20. I tried it once a week so it took me about a month to get 20. Every once in a while I go back to see if I can do it. I use 225. So far my max is 26 reps. It really is mental for me. I've attempted 275 but only made it to 15 reps before I stopped.* I had a challenge with Stewart14 to see who could do "275 x 15" first*. If you like challenges....it will be fun.
> 
> Just thought I'd share my experience. Good luck!


 
oh you had to bring that up huh??


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## Gazhole (Feb 26, 2010)

Looks like a lot of this has already been addressed by Cowpimp/FMJ etc, but i'll answer anyways!



Phineas said:


> I just checked out your website yesterday for the first time and was very impressed! You really know your stuff! I'm definitely bookmarking that site.


 
Thanks bro  has taken a little while to get it looking sharp, but i'm pleased with how its going! 



Phineas said:


> (1.) You say to take your 10-rep weight and do it for one set of 20. I understand this set is about pure will-power and mind-set, but your 10-rep weight would be something like your 11-rep max (except for those who go to failure on every set..). When I do 10 reps on squat (or any exercise), I choose a weight that not only challenges me for those reps but has me by the end near failure...so maybe the 11th or 12th rep would be total failure. So, even if I have all the drive and motivation in the world, how can I surpass this physical stopping point? It's like saying lift your 1-rep max 4 times. How is this actually possible?


 
The only reason this is at all possible is because of the use of breathing squats. The stress on your body increases because of the bar being on your back, but in comparison to a straight set of squats the extra time between reps allows your quads to recover somewhat. It's not easy to keep going, but those little bits of rest (and an ungodly amount of oxygen) contribute quite a lot.

By the end of a set, im usually taking between 6-10 deep breaths rather than just 3. A typical 20-rep set of squats can take between 3-5 minutes. Thats one rep 15 seconds. Considering a rep takes about 5 seconds, max, thats 10 seconds of rest for each rep on average.



Phineas said:


> (2.) What if I fail, and have to stop at 15 reps? Should I wait a minute and finish the other 5 reps? Should I rest several minutes and try again? Or, is my set over for that session?


 
If you fail as in you literally can't complete a rep while doing the positive portion, stop and leave it like that and go to the pullovers. Next time you squat, take more rest between each rep.

Don't feel that you have to do another rep after just 3 breaths, if you need more breaths - take them!



Phineas said:


> (3.) How long can I rest in between reps during the final 10 reps before the intensity is compromised? I figure the intensity must be maintained in order to get the desired stimulus. However, when you think about it, if I were to do 3 set of 10 squats with that weight, I would do a total of 30 reps (10 reps more..) in probably, what, 5 minutes? Now, not that I think the 20 rep would take that long, but when I'm pushing a weight for twice the normal reps I imagine there's going to be unimaginable pain, and I'm probably going to need a pause at the top for the last 10 reps. However, I can't just sit there for 10 seconds in between each one. I might as well just rest. Do you have a timing blueprint for this set that I can follow?


 
No, you have it spot on with how you just described the last part of the set. The intensity comes from stabilizing a heavy weight for a long duration, as well as the high rep squats. This is fullbody stimulation rather than just squatting for the legs as you'd usually do.

Taking a shitload of time in the latter stages of the set (and it will get longer throughout the program) is absolutely fine, and in fact quite necessary because how godawfully fucking hard these squats are 



Phineas said:


> Many thanks, Gaz. I'm not criticizing this program. I want to do it! I just wanted to clarify all these points so I'm doing it right.
> 
> Keep up the good work. Love the articles!


 
No thats cool, man! If you have any more questions im more than happy to answer them 

Glad you like the site!


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## Gazhole (Feb 26, 2010)

yellowmoomba said:


> I've done the 20 rep program a couple times. It took about 4 sessions (attempts) to hit 20 reps for me. The first session was 14, then 16, then 17 then 20. I tried it once a week so it took me about a month to get 20. Every once in a while I go back to see if I can do it. I use 225. So far my max is 26 reps. It really is mental for me. I've attempted 275 but only made it to 15 reps before I stopped. I had a challenge with Stewart14 to see who could do "275 x 15" first. If you like challenges....it will be fun.
> 
> Just thought I'd share my experience. Good luck!


 
275 x 15 is amazing, dude! Fucking nice job!

By the end of 3 weeks on the 20 rep squat program i managed 242 x 20, but i know i could have done more if id kept the program up. Damn school


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## Gazhole (Feb 26, 2010)

Phineas said:


> Awesome! I can't wait for this program! And, thanks for the motivational words!


 
When are you gonna start it? I want to do it again, fancy starting IronMag's first ever 2 person squat journal? We can kill this program together!


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## CowPimp (Feb 26, 2010)

Phineas said:


> Given the rests in between reps during the second half of the set, the intensity, while still very high, is not as constant as during a normal set.



Why not?  You are not allowing for complete recovery.  You're only supposed to be resting like 10-30 seconds.  Even then, you aren't exactly resting.  Have you ever stood around with a couple hundred pounds on your back for multiple minutes?  I assure you that even if you aren't squatting, fatigue will set in just from maintaining good posture with a load.  The difficulty of doing this makes your average straight set look like a walk in the park.




> Can you please explain what is going on in the body (muscle cells, motor units, tendons, everything) that makes this process effective? How does this differ from just belting out 3 sets at your 10RM with short rests in between?



As soon as you can find a study where muscle biopsies have been done on someone doing breathing squats versus straight sets of squats, you will have your answer.  To my knowledge, no such studies exist.

However, I can tell you that this uses the repeated effort method to recruit higher threshold motor units.  It takes this concept to the limit.  Your largest and most powerful motor units, under normal circumstances, are recruited according to the size principle.  They aren't recruited unless you are working at a very high intensity (When I use the word intensity, I use it as a function of how close to your 1RM you are working, unlike your previous usage of the word).  You can also recruit these fibers when moving a submaximal load at a high velocity, also known as the dynamic effort method.  There is also the repeated effort method, where a submaximal load (70-85% of your 1RM or so) is repeatedly lifted until the beefiest motor units originally recruited to do that work start to fatigue.  Once this happens, the highest threshold motor units are brought into play to take care of business.  When doing the breathing squats, you are never allowing for complete recovery, so you, in theory, are going to recruit the highest threshold motor units quite a bit even if the load is only about 75% of your 1RM.  Is this more or less compared to straight sets of 3x10?  I have no idea.

The other thing you must consider is what load you are lifting for 3x10 if you are resting very little between sets.  If you're talking 1 minute of rest in between, for example, I doubt you're going to be able to use more than your 12-15RM (65-70% of 1RM) if you want to maintain that performance through all the sets.  If you gradually work your way up to a 10RM set, then your previous two sets with be sub-maximal.  If you're doing breathing squats, you are getting a total of 20 repetitions in at 75% of your 1RM, as opposed to the methods you mentioned where you are using either accumulating either a lower intensity/higher volume (Straight sets) or you are working up to the same intensity but at a lower volume (Pyramid up) coupled with some additional work at a lower intensity.




> FYI -- I'm a firm believer of keeping things short and sweet (within reason...volume has its place, too). I just want to understand the physiology behind this approach; it's very different. One set.
> 
> FMJ - did you notice yourself ever pyched out going into the set? I would imagine a lot of pressure being on that one set!



I haven't done this myself, well not exactly.  I have done rest-pause sets during bouts of HIT style sessions utilizing a similar idea (Very difficult sets pushed to failure and beyond done at a low total volume).  Yes, there is a ton of pressure, but I myself never really got psyched out.  I definitely had to really take the time to get mentally prepared before the set though.  Also, I found that I burned out incredibly fast, even only training 2 times per week at times.  My nervous system got fried after several weeks of training like that.


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## Phineas (Feb 26, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> When are you gonna start it? I want to do it again, fancy starting IronMag's first ever 2 person squat journal? We can kill this program together!



My current block training program will conclude March 29, at which point I'll deload 5-7 days, then start the squat program.

I don't even really know what my 10RM is at this point, because I've been block training for a while now (lower push before, now lower pull for the leg portion) and so every time I go to squat my legs are already fried. I'll have to do a practice session first to assess where my squats are, just to see what I can now do on fresh legs. For instance, in my last program I was squatting 4 times a week, plus two other lower pushes and then deads on maintenance day (not to mention the high volume for the other plane of motion I was working on). Now, I'm deadlifting 4 times a week (or whatever it works out to...3 days in a row, first 2 are the planes I'm working on) plus horizontal pull. Come maintenance day when I squat my legs and back are fatigued!

I might give the journal a try. I really want to get my squat up and posting the numbers for everyone to see would probably be good motivation. I feel that my squat (or at least what I'm lifting at the moment amidst this brutal program) isn't where it should be. Last time I was doing the more modest 4 day upper/lower push/pull program in December I was box squatting like 205 for 10 clean reps (and I do control both the eccentric and contentric) to parallel. Of course, it took me a little over a year after I took up BBing to actually be training properly. Still...no excuses. By the end of the year I intend on squatting to parallel 250 for 10, and a 1Rm of 315 (yes, the 3 plates thing...whatever, everyone needs to feed their ego when they're young).

In the meantime, with my lower pull/upp hor pull block training I'm doing the foundational work for my back, which will help all my major lifts go up. My back is strong, but I find that when I really try to push myself on squats and deads that my back fatigues before my legs. So, I'm looking at this in the long run!


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## rockhardly (Mar 2, 2010)

Not highjacking but I feel like these questions/responses will add benifit to this thread.  I started this last week.  I have done it one time and my second go will be tonight.  I did 225# 20 times and was drueling and breathing like am m****er.  However, imediately after I finished the set, my legs did not feel exhausted.  After about 5 minutes, I began to feel a pump but I never got sore.  WHen i do 3 or 4 sets of high intensity, my legs become incredibly sore and fatigued.  So, my questions are:
1) Should my legs get sore using the 1x20?
2) Do you think that my legs are better conditioned than my CV system such that I would better benifit from a 3x8 program?
3) Should my legs be completely fatigued afterwards?  (I felt like I could have done more setsof high intensity low volume)
4) Would it be better to load up to a weight that you just can't do 20 and keep hitting that weight until you can and add weight and repeat?
5) Has anyone done this program incorporating a high intensity low volume set like a 1x5 85% 1RM followed by the 1x20?


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## Phineas (Mar 2, 2010)

Okay, Gaz -- I'm starting tonight.

I had to drop the block training for now. With a government Mon-Fri job, early mornings, a girlfriend who lives 45 mins away, needing time for stretching, food preparation, and trying to have something of a social life, working out 5-6 days a week at that volume is just too much right now. It's too bad because physically I was fine; my body was adapting and I saw great results from the brief 3 weeks or so I did on the last one. Even after two 3-day cycles on this one I was already responding. Mentally and emotionally, it was just too much. I've experienced physical overtraining, but not mental. I got to the gym feeling liek a champ physically, but my mind wasn't there, so I cut loose and headed out. 

I'm actually really stoked to get out of that and go back to the basics (aside from that 20 rep set squat). I've never done a proper full body program, as the last time I did one was in my first few months of lifting when I didn't know shit and was doing 85% isolation in a 3 hour circuit. My god..terrible. I know that 3 days will keep my gaining because the intensity will be so much higher and I'll be mentally fresh. I'll have more free time now to do my cardio (short bouts of running, like 15 mins..but I'm still planning on doing Victoria's 10k in April..I do it every year...and I don't care what hardcore bulkers say..cardio helps muscle development if monitored and calories are replaced).

Anyway, I've rested a few days to get my mind back in order. I'm starting the program tonight. I'm thinking of starting my first ever journal for this site (I have a paper one, but never done it on here..).


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## Phineas (Mar 2, 2010)

Question for everyone:

Now, even though the emphasis is on the set of squats, I still want to make progress on everything else. As painful as that set is going to be, I can't imagine it being the whole workout (did I just open the door to some flaming?).

Now, I have only 2 months left for bulking before I go for my first ever cut. I want to put on as much size and strength as possible. I figure with this new 3 day split it would be a good opportunity to stay in lower rep ranges more often. I always incorporate non-linear periodization but go higher than 80-85% only about 25% of the time (so as to get a nice balance). However, now I need mass....and lots of it.

That being said, how can I incorporate non-linear periodization but stay in the mass/strength rep range for this program? (of course, the squats remain as are, but the other lifts I can periodize). Would this be too much on my CNS to stay in low reps for 6 weeks? Or, can I work in that rep range for, say, 75% of the time?

Ideas?


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## Gazhole (Mar 2, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> 1) Should my legs get sore using the 1x20?
> 
> 2) Do you think that my legs are better conditioned than my CV system such that I would better benifit from a 3x8 program?
> 
> ...



Soreness is not an indicator of a good workout. I never get sore. Ever.

On the 20 rep squat program, the important points are not the volume of the squats, but the duration you are under the bar, the frequency of the squats (3x a week), and the fact that you will be adding 5lbs every single workout.

The 1x20 isn't hard right now, but give it 6 weeks on the program and you will laugh at that 5th question because that one set of squats will be so hellish that the thought of any more squatting will make your insides quiver .


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## Gazhole (Mar 2, 2010)

Phineas said:


> Okay, Gaz -- I'm starting tonight.
> 
> I had to drop the block training for now. With a government Mon-Fri job, early mornings, a girlfriend who lives 45 mins away, needing time for stretching, food preparation, and trying to have something of a social life, working out 5-6 days a week at that volume is just too much right now. It's too bad because physically I was fine; my body was adapting and I saw great results from the brief 3 weeks or so I did on the last one. Even after two 3-day cycles on this one I was already responding. Mentally and emotionally, it was just too much. I've experienced physical overtraining, but not mental. I got to the gym feeling liek a champ physically, but my mind wasn't there, so I cut loose and headed out.
> 
> ...



I highly reccomend a journal. I'll definitely keep checking in on your progress on this one. The atmosphere in the journals section is awesome for motivation.

Glad to hear you're gonna give it a go though, dude


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## rockhardly (Mar 2, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> On the 20 rep squat program, the important points are not the volume of the squats, but the duration you are under the bar, the frequency of the squats (3x a week), and the fact that you will be adding 5lbs every single workout.



True.  I was planning on adding 10#'s, 5ea. side but let's see......3x a week x6 weeks=18 times x 10# =180#'s + my starting weight of 225#'s = HOLY F*&%$.  

Phineas had made a comment about the 1x20 being the whole workout.  Is this program the only thing that is intended to be used for the entire 6 weeks?  I am currently doing a version of DC training. 

Phineas,
We are trying to accomplish the exact same thing.


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## Phineas (Mar 2, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> True.  I was planning on adding 10#'s, 5ea. side but let's see......3x a week x6 weeks=18 times x 10# =180#'s + my starting weight of 225#'s = HOLY F*&%$.
> 
> Phineas had made a comment about the 1x20 being the whole workout.  Is this program the only thing that is intended to be used for the entire 6 weeks?  I am currently doing a version of DC training.
> 
> ...



I'm trying to take over the world. What the hell are you talking about?


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## Phineas (Mar 2, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> Soreness is not an indicator of a good workout. I never get sore. Ever.
> 
> On the 20 rep squat program, the important points are not the volume of the squats, but the duration you are under the bar, the frequency of the squats (3x a week), and the fact that you will be adding 5lbs every single workout.
> 
> The 1x20 isn't hard right now, but give it 6 weeks on the program and you will laugh at that 5th question because that one set of squats will be so hellish that the thought of any more squatting will make your insides quiver .



I must have missed the adding 5lbs per session. How is that possible? That's 15 lbs a week! After 6 weeks that 90 lbs you've added. 90 lbs onto my 10 rep max would probably be my max. How am I supposed to squat that 20 times after only 6 weeks? I can see maybe 5 lbs per week, but per session?

Are you trying to kill me Gaz? What is it you want that I have? Do you want my Judas Priest collection? Is that it?! You bastard!!!


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## Gazhole (Mar 3, 2010)

Phineas said:


> I must have missed the adding 5lbs per session. How is that possible? That's 15 lbs a week! After 6 weeks that 90 lbs you've added. 90 lbs onto my 10 rep max would probably be my max. How am I supposed to squat that 20 times after only 6 weeks? I can see maybe 5 lbs per week, but per session?
> 
> Are you trying to kill me Gaz? What is it you want that I have? Do you want my Judas Priest collection? Is that it?! You bastard!!!



220lbs was my 10rm when i started, and within 3 weeks i was up to 242lbs. It wasn't easy, and i was taking over 5 minutes to finish that set. You need to be eating and resting a LOT, hence all the damn milk. It's easy calories.

This is also why the accessory work is incredibly limited and, for the most part, sub-maximal in intensity. By the end of the program, i wouldn't be surprised if you drop the accessory altogether. Most people i know who have made the 6 weeks have just done the squats and gone home for the last 2 weeks .



rockhardly said:


> True. I was planning on adding 10#'s, 5ea. side but let's see......3x a week x6 weeks=18 times x 10# =180#'s + my starting weight of 225#'s = HOLY F*&%$.
> 
> Phineas had made a comment about the 1x20 being the whole workout. Is this program the only thing that is intended to be used for the entire 6 weeks? I am currently doing a version of DC training.
> 
> ...



This probably will be relevant to Phineas too.

Yes - this is all you will be doing, but it is permissable to only do it twice a week as opposed to three times a week.

For example, you can do the squats monday and friday, and do a regular workout in the middle with no squats.

Or you can still do a set of 20 breathing squats, but halve the weight for active recovery, and treat the rest of the workout like the other workouts on the program.

I would definitely not add 10lbs a workout, you may actually kill yourself! But it is also an option to start 15lbs lighter than your 10rm so the first week is just an acclimatization to the 20 rep squats.


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## rockhardly (Mar 3, 2010)

Phineas said:


> I'm trying to take over the world. What the hell are you talking about?



OH!  I thought you were trying to add as much mass as possible for the next 6 weeks before you go on a cut.

Well, I added 10#'s, 235#, last night and miraculously completed the set.  I can see myself getting thru this week and next, adding only 5# per session, but the last few weeks are going to be extremely difficult.

Here is my plan.  As I don't want to disregard any other major muscle groups, I will be doing the squats 2 times in 8 days along with all other major muscle groups 2 times in 8 days.  Do you think that hitting all other muscle groups is going to hender the potential development from the squat program even if the calories are increased?  For all the other muscle groups, I am doing 1 rest paused excercise per muscle.  I was planning on treating the squat program as my leg excercise as I would on a typical split.


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## Gazhole (Mar 3, 2010)

How many of those 8 days will be rest? I'm hoping 3 at an absolute minimum. 4 would be better.


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## brk_nemesis (Mar 3, 2010)

Yup breathing squats are the shit. Im starting my DC period again in a couple weeks and cant wait. Its more mental than anything, as your body just wants to rack the bar. And when you are first starting off people look at you weird as shit, wondering why you are gasping for air using 135 or 185, lol. I do a quick 5x5 for my warm-up sets, and then the 20 rep work set,... which has done wonders for both strength and mass.

My last w/o on DC for squats before cycling off mid December was 315x18. I was sick as shit all throughout Christmas and January, and used February essentially as a recovery month. I hope to get back to that number and continue upwards.


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## rockhardly (Mar 3, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> How many of those 8 days will be rest? I'm hoping 3 at an absolute minimum. 4 would be better.



Days 1, 3, 5, and 8 are on and days 2,4,6, and 7 are off.

brk_nemisis,
Did you put on alot of mass using DC? Naturally?


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## brk_nemesis (Mar 3, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> brk_nemisis,
> Did you put on alot of mass using DC? Naturally?


Sure did. Biggest thing is getting in the sleep, and ramping up the calories. I was on a MWF schedule but because the routines are very high intensity you burn through more calories than that of a 5 day( for me at least). You hit the same body part with different rotations 3 times within 10 days. When you get it all right, it works wonders. The forced stretches help alot too.


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## rockhardly (Mar 3, 2010)

What eccentric timing should be achieved?  The first 10, I ussually get around 2-3 seconds, but after that its more like 1 second.


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## rockhardly (Mar 3, 2010)

brk_nemesis said:


> Sure did. Biggest thing is getting in the sleep, and ramping up the calories. I was on a MWF schedule but because the routines are very high intensity you burn through more calories than that of a 5 day( for me at least). You hit the same body part with different rotations 3 times within 10 days. When you get it all right, it works wonders. The forced stretches help alot too.



How strict are you with the eccentric timing?  I usually hit around 3 seconds.  I have not been exactly willing to drop the weights to get any more than that.  Reason being that I have been lifting with high intensity for a while and feel that if I drop the weight strictly for an extended eccentric time, my gains will drop since the intensity would decrease.


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## brk_nemesis (Mar 3, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> How strict are you with the eccentric timing?  I usually hit around 3 seconds.  I have not been exactly willing to drop the weights to get any more than that.  Reason being that I have been lifting with high intensity for a while and feel that if I drop the weight strictly for an extended eccentric time, my gains will drop since the intensity would decrease.


Prolly around 2-3 seconds.  I really dont count. I focus mainly on  a full ROM and pausing at the "sticking" then exploding up. Squats are prolly the one exercise i slow down on in the negative phase the most, due to the fact that a faster tempo usually leads to bouncing when exhaustion is nearing.


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## mike2 (Mar 3, 2010)

I believe you do a 20 rep squat in DC training. It would be like one long squat with several rest-pauses. After the squat you could FST-7 with leg extensions to get a good pump.


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## rockhardly (Mar 4, 2010)

mike2 said:


> I believe you do a 20 rep squat in DC training. It would be like one long squat with several rest-pauses. After the squat you could FST-7 with leg extensions to get a good pump.


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## rockhardly (Mar 4, 2010)

Phineas said:


> Question for everyone:
> 
> Now, even though the emphasis is on the set of squats, I still want to make progress on everything else. As painful as that set is going to be, I can't imagine it being the whole workout (did I just open the door to some flaming?).
> 
> ...



How about trying DC?  I started this last week and brk nemisis is starting another cycle also.  It also has the breathing squats in there as a part of the program.  

You started the squat program on march 2.  How did the first bout go??


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## rockhardly (Mar 8, 2010)

Any updates?

I added 5 more pounds (now at 240#).  Made it thru the set.  I am still not sure on the eccentric timing and its importance.  I am keeping about 2-3 seconds in the first 10 reps but after that it falls to about 1 sec.  I dont bounced off the bottom and I keep good form with controlled movements but I just cant slow down the weight due to fatigue, not wanting to get stuck in the hole (I don't have a spotter) and the thought of only being half way there at ten.  What timing should be achieved?  Gaz? Nemisis?

What are you doing Phineas?  Haven't heard from you in a while.


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## Gazhole (Mar 8, 2010)

Nice work so far, dude! Good job! How does it feel?

I didn't really pay a lot of attention to the timing so long as it was a controlled and safe rep. How many breaths are you taking at this point in the set? Is it your legs giving out, or your trunk's ability to simply hold the weight?


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## rockhardly (Mar 8, 2010)

Prior to the set, I tend to feel anxious and think about the set alot even as far out as the day before.  After the set, I feel like I just carved Mount Rushmore with my cock.  I have notice an increase in testosterone activity since I started doing them as well. 

Knowing the onslaught I am about to endure, especially starting at the 15th rep, I take about 3-4 deep breaths during reps 1 to 10 and from there the breaths escalate and around the 16th rep I am taking about 10 seconds to druel and pant and curse at the weights a bit (wife compares it to labor) between reps.  

The main muscular exhaustion is in my lumbar region.  I do have to say that I do not feel as much of an attack on my quads as I did with 4x8 of higher intensity.  However, my body and mind as a whole did not take the beating that it does with 1x20.  Perhaps, this is what makes this style so effective.  I should also mention that 235# posed a greater challenge to me then 240# did.  But I had a spotter with 240# nagging me from behind.  

To recap my typical 1x20:
Warm up:135#1x10, 205#-1x6, 235#-1x4, 240#-1x1.
Note that I increase warmups the same amount of weight as I do the working set.
Working set:currently 240#-1x20.

Tempo: First 10 reps-2-3/1/0 changing to 1/1/0 in the second half.

Set duration: Currently about 3 minutes.  

Failure mode:  If there was a faliure, it would be due to my upper body and my CV system, or just flat out passing the fuck out

I was thinking about stopping just short of lockout during the breathing phase of the set.  I just don't think its fair to my torso to have to hold all that weight stable while my quads get to lock out and take a break.  

What you think about the tempo, breathing time, set time, and not locking out?


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## Gazhole (Mar 8, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> Prior to the set, I tend to feel anxious and think about the set alot even as far out as the day before.  After the set, I feel like I just carved Mount Rushmore with my cock.  I have notice an increase in testosterone activity since I started doing them as well.



Right on. I have trouble sleeping the night before breathing squats, its not even funny. Afterwards you feel completely destroyed, but on top of the world when you realise what you just accomplished. Its awesome.



rockhardly said:


> Knowing the onslaught I am about to endure, especially starting at the 15th rep, I take about 3-4 deep breaths during reps 1 to 10 and from there the breaths escalate and around the 16th rep I am taking about 10 seconds to druel and pant and curse at the weights a bit (wife compares it to labor) between reps.



This sounds great, i think you have the intensity and control of the set down-pat. The thing i found strange is that no matter how much you increase the weight on this program, its always around the 15th rep where the "fun" starts. After a few weeks you're squatting a good 30lbs more than at the beginning, but it still gets hard at the same point in the set.

So long as you keep this sort of attention on your breathing and taking your time with the reps, you will complete the set and will be able to add the weight every time.



rockhardly said:


> The main muscular exhaustion is in my lumbar region.  I do have to say that I do not feel as much of an attack on my quads as I did with 4x8 of higher intensity.  However, my body and mind as a whole did not take the beating that it does with 1x20.  Perhaps, this is what makes this style so effective.  I should also mention that 235# posed a greater challenge to me then 240# did.  But I had a spotter with 240# nagging me from behind.



I found it really hit my quads hard, but like you said most of the stress was in the back really. Are you keeping your core nice and tight throughout the whole set?

I know theres a lot more to concentrate on when you get near the big 20, but i found that helped take some of the stress off my lower back.

Having a spotter who isn't afraid to tear into you like a drill sergeant is a pretty big element when things start getting tough. I always do better with these squats when theres somebody yelling at me.

20 Rep Squats are pretty much all a mental game. Anything that keeps you focused and fired up is going to help. Im pretty sure if there was a gun to your head you could do 30 reps if you had to, its just finding that motivation.



rockhardly said:


> To recap my typical 1x20:
> Warm up:135#1x10, 205#-1x6, 235#-1x4, 240#-1x1.
> Note that I increase warmups the same amount of weight as I do the working set.
> Working set:currently 240#-1x20.
> ...



The warmups look good, and don't seem like they'll be fatiguing you (this is a big problem with some people, their warmups drain their main set!).



rockhardly said:


> I was thinking about stopping just short of lockout during the breathing phase of the set.  I just don't think its fair to my torso to have to hold all that weight stable while my quads get to lock out and take a break.
> 
> What you think about the tempo, breathing time, set time, and not locking out?



Honestly, using tempo for the first half of the set before you start tanking out is something i've never thought of, but i like it. The quads rarely fail on this despite the crazy fucking volume, and this seems like a good way to accomplish a longer set length, and bring the quads into play a lot more.

With the not locking out thing, i think the last thing you want is to tire the quads out too much, and while taking the deep breaths i think you need to be as stable as possible, which might be compromised by keeping your knees to soft.

The rest of your setup looks fucking solid though, man. Well done! Set length looks good, the tempo element you've put into it sounds great, and your breathing is doing just enough to let you finish your sets and add more weight.

How are your results looking in terms of mass gains or strength gains in other areas?


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## rockhardly (Mar 9, 2010)

Sweet!  I feel alot more confident in what I am doing now.



Gazhole said:


> How are your results looking in terms of mass gains or strength gains in other areas?



I am not sure if they are related, but the other day I caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror, and my shoulders looked to be much broader.  It is so hard to visually tell you're packing on the mass when you see yourself all the time.  I can say this though, my close fit tighter this week than they did last.  Also, I have been adding reps and weight to all my lifts, especially deads.

Gaz,
What type of training are you on right now?


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## Gazhole (Mar 9, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> I am not sure if they are related, but the other day I caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror, and my shoulders looked to be much broader.  It is so hard to visually tell you're packing on the mass when you see yourself all the time.  I can say this though, my close fit tighter this week than they did last.  Also, I have been adding reps and weight to all my lifts, especially deads.



 great stuff! You might find broader shoulders are a side effect from all the breathing squats - expanding the ribcage will push your chest and shoulders out aswell.

Congrats on your results and other increases! Keep at it. As hard as it is, what you're doing is obviously working!



rockhardly said:


> Gaz,
> What type of training are you on right now?



At the moment doing 2-3 fullbody workouts a week focused on strength, theres some breathing squats in there too. Also doing 2 grip strength workouts a week to train up for some british grip championships either this year or next year.

Its going pretty well, my lifts are increasing pretty steadily, and i'm getting a lot more solid in terms of muscle mass. Gonna try for 25 reps with 220lbs on the squat on friday, and looking for 365lbs x 3 Deadlifts next week sometime.


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## rockhardly (Mar 9, 2010)

So, you're bulking?  What are your stats?  When are you going to cut?


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## Gazhole (Mar 9, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> So, you're bulking?  What are your stats?  When are you going to cut?



Just finished up a proper "bulk", put on about 10lbs or something. I've pretty much been putting on weight for the last year or two though, haha .

Have been more focused on strength gains since january, i'm pretty happy with my size/fat now. Being cut up doesn't really interest me to be honest. I'm fine hovering around 12-15% forever, lol.


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## T_man (Mar 9, 2010)

Is there any room for deads on this routine? I feel naked leaving them out but I really don't have the energy to do productive deads after the squats.


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## juggernaut (Mar 9, 2010)

ahhh yes, the bastard of all programs. Old School training at it's finest fucking painful oblivious standpoint. I dare anyone say that they never made gains on it.


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## Gazhole (Mar 9, 2010)

T_man said:


> Is there any room for deads on this routine? I feel naked leaving them out but I really don't have the energy to do productive deads after the squats.



Yeah, i did them on mondays - same 3 set style as the other accessory.


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## Gazhole (Mar 9, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> ahhh yes, the bastard of all programs. Old School training at it's finest fucking painful oblivious standpoint. I dare anyone say that they never made gains on it.



I think you either make gains or have a massive coronary


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## juggernaut (Mar 9, 2010)

or puke a lung up.


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## juggernaut (Mar 9, 2010)

incidentally, if you have problems with knees a good substitute is standard deads. I used both and found the deads put a lot more into a workout than actual squats...dont know if it is my height or what have you. I do know my body had a better physiological response to the deadlift.


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## T_man (Mar 9, 2010)

can you alternate? my quads are too sore from monday's routine for me to do them again tommorow but I think I can manage deads.


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## rockhardly (Mar 10, 2010)

T_man said:


> can you alternate? my quads are too sore from monday's routine for me to do them again tommorow but I think I can manage deads.



I am currently only doing the squats twice a week.  On different days, I am also doing deads twice a week.

As far as using deads and squats for the 20 rep set, I don't see the deads expanding the rib cage and broadening the shoulders as much as squats.  Also, with the weight being held closer to your center of gravity, I see deadlifts being less effective.  But then again, I have never done a 20 rep set of heavy deads.


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## T_man (Mar 10, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> I am currently only doing the squats twice a week.  On different days, I am also doing deads twice a week.
> 
> As far as using deads and squats for the 20 rep set, I don't see the deads expanding the rib cage and broadening the shoulders as much as squats.  Also, with the weight being held closer to your center of gravity, I see deadlifts being less effective.  But then again, I have never done a 20 rep set of heavy deads.



I'd rather do the squats too, but my quads are still sore. Sqauats are out of the picture so I'll go for the next best. However, I find deads more dangerous than squats at high reps, so I might just do the 3x6-8 for today with dips and chin ups then resume the routine on friday. I think I'm going to have to cycle like this because my legs are awful at recovery.


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## gtbmed (Mar 10, 2010)

If you want an awesome squatting program, try Smolov...


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## juggernaut (Mar 10, 2010)

T_man said:


> can you alternate? my quads are too sore from monday's routine for me to do them again tommorow but I think I can manage deads.


I've done it but be sure you get a full ROM with the deads.


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## Gazhole (Mar 10, 2010)

gtbmed said:


> If you want an awesome squatting program, try Smolov...



Smolov is brutal. If anybody can make it through the advanced cycle they have my respect, it gets so damned tough its not even funny.


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## juggernaut (Mar 10, 2010)

sounds like you gotcha ass whipped.


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## rockhardly (Mar 11, 2010)

Going for 245#'s tonight.


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## rockhardly (Mar 15, 2010)

Got to 15 and had to rack it for 5 seconds (lower back fatigue) and then finished it off.  It is getting a bit more challenging to slow down the eccentric portion.  Encouragement from a spotter goes along way.


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## Gazhole (Mar 15, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> Got to 15 and had to rack it for 5 seconds (lower back fatigue) and then finished it off.  It is getting a bit more challenging to slow down the eccentric portion.  Encouragement from a spotter goes along way.



Nice job, man! Thats a lot of weight, especially with tempo!

Maybe as it gets heavier you should gradully phase out the tempo, reduce the extended eccentric by one second a week or something.


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## danzik17 (Mar 15, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> Going for 245#'s tonight.



Nice job - that's a lot of weight for 20 rep squats.  Highest I ever got to was 230.


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## rockhardly (Mar 15, 2010)

Thanks Guys!  Great encouragement.  Makes me want to go pound out the 250# set.......

As previously mentioned, my training has been based on DC for about 3 weeks.  I have been making good gains every week but the split combines too many major lifts in the same day and I find it hard to complete the workout.  So, I have 2 weeks left in my bulking cycle and was thinking of going back to a 4 day split.  However, I want to hit the breathing squats 2x a week so on Saturday, I would do just a 1x20 set of squats.  This is what it would look like:

Mon-chest/bi's
Tues-legs
Thurs-delts/tri's
Fri-back
Sat-1x20 squats only

As I only have 2 weeks left, I don't think it is that big of a deal but would like your opinion.


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## FMJ (Mar 15, 2010)

danzik17 said:


> Nice job - that's a lot of weight for 20 rep squats. Highest I ever got to was 230.


 
Yeah, I stopped doing the high rep variety at 220. Brutal routine.


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## juggernaut (Mar 16, 2010)

I have a nice bulk cycle planned in the late summer and will be using this program along with eating a shitload of food.


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## rockhardly (Mar 17, 2010)

I did the 250# set last night.  HOLY F%$K!  I did not even attempt to maintain a tempo, just kept the movement controlled.  Got to 15 and my lower back really began to fatigue.  While in a standing position, my back seemed to get some rest but on the descent/ascent, it really takes a beating.  At 19, I almost quit (remember no spotter and a not-so-good safety bar) but went for 20.  I could only do 3/4 of a full squat because my back started to round pretty bad and I knew those pretty little explosions that I was seeing weren't really there.

So, 250#-1x19-3/4.  Severely exhausting.  I barely had enough energy to do a couple of sets of hams and calves.

I am thinking that a belt might help with some of the fatigue.  Do/did you guys wear one?


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## Gazhole (Mar 17, 2010)

I didn't, but my lower back is pretty strong. I made a point of strengthening it a tonne after my back injury. If you feel it would help, go for it. Theres no point getting an injury!

Huge congratulations on that set, dude! Thats incredible intensity! Fucking tremendous work


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## rockhardly (Mar 17, 2010)

I think I have a strong back as well, maybe not so much in the endurance category though.  I am deading 4 sets of 8 at 275# and going to 280# this thurs.  What type of excercises do you do for your lower back?  My favorite is deads.  How did you injur your back?


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## Gazhole (Mar 17, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> I think I have a strong back as well, maybe not so much in the endurance category though.  I am deading 4 sets of 8 at 275# and going to 280# this thurs.  What type of excercises do you do for your lower back?  My favorite is deads.  How did you injur your back?



A hell of a lot of stretching was the main part of my rehab, which i continue to this day. Im stretching the posterior chain for ten minutes on its own after every workout.

As for exercises, planks and supermans/back extensions for the core aspect, weighted hyperextensions, obviously deadlifts and squats. I like doing a lot of single arm overhead pressing for core aswell. Its all helped a tonne, either by strengthening the lower back, or the areas around it to take some of the strain off.

I injured my back doing bulgarian squats, lost my balance, and bent sideways at the torso and wrenched my sacro-iliac joint causing shitloads of pulls all the way up the right side of my back. 6 months being pigheaded and not getting it treated resulted in lots of imbalances, strains, pulls, and posture problems that took over 18 months to put right, lol.

Thats my sob story


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## rockhardly (Mar 17, 2010)

Damn, dude.  OUCH!  

Stretching more regularly is something I definately need to work on.

I started doing standing single are DB presses, but the weight I could do decreased, so I went back to double.  Has this been your experience?


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## juggernaut (Mar 17, 2010)

Hey Gaz, you really want to torch your thighs? Try using LPS stretching on your quads. It's friggin gross the burn you get.


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## NiagaraBalls (Mar 17, 2010)

To answer Sprayherup's q, I've always read about this as a 2 set program, taking a few mins to recover between them (you'll need it).  I do 2X20 for 305 lbs (as of the last workout).  I've been doing these on and off for several years and they do get easier as you go.  Your legs become more endurance oriented and you'll be surprised.

I generally add 5-10 lbs. to this lift every workout.  Some guys don't think that's good progress.  I suspect those guys don't regularly do the 20 reppers.  I don't do the breathing method, just suck it up and bust out 20.  If you get into a rhythm w/ it, it just becomes a mental thing and you plow through it.  For me, it gets really hard at the 14th or 15th rep and I just have to focus hard and get it done.  

They're exhausting and make you want to quit, but you get a hell of a burn and pump.  I find if you do hamstrings afterward, you get a lot more out of whatever you're doing since you now have a ton of blood in your legs.


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## Gazhole (Mar 18, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> Damn, dude.  OUCH!
> 
> Stretching more regularly is something I definately need to work on.
> 
> I started doing standing single are DB presses, but the weight I could do decreased, so I went back to double.  Has this been your experience?



Only for a few weeks. Once you have built up the stability, your shoulders can use their full strength again.


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## Gazhole (Mar 18, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> Hey Gaz, you really want to torch your thighs? Try using LPS stretching on your quads. It's friggin gross the burn you get.



Sounds sexy, do you have any links? Never even heard of LPS stretching!


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## roastchicken (Mar 18, 2010)

YouTube - Tom Platz 500lb 227.5kg squat for 23 reps


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## juggernaut (Mar 18, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> Sounds sexy, do you have any links? Never even heard of LPS stretching!


 The idea behind is that you pick a stretching exercise that stretches the "bag" of the muscle. I've found one that truly works wonders for the quads. Grab a high placed bar-preferably on a smith or a squat rack; kneel into it with your ankles behind your ass with your arms held high on the bar. Hold and stretch it for 15-20 seconds. This should only be done for a couple of weeks at a time and then stopped. Wait a few weeks to begin again. You can choose which bodypart to do it, but do NOT overdo it. 2 week maxes. 


This type of stretching is ideal for bulking because the theory goes that it stretches the sheath out and will enable more nutrients in, enabling more growth. Since a bulk cycle enables more nutrients and calories, it makes it a good move to do. Another idea is to pick your lagging bodyparts and utilize this method.


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## juggernaut (Mar 18, 2010)

Loaded stretching: use weights when you stretch to build size and strength | Men's Fitness | Find Articles at BNET


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