# Starting Deca Soon....what To Do , How Much..please Help!



## formula king (Oct 28, 2003)

Okay im getting  deca (10cc bottle)...

these are my questions

1.how much should i take a week and how often
2.what other supplements do i need to control side-effects
3.PRETTY MUCH.....TELL ME EVERYTHING I NEED TO KNOW TO BE SAFE AND KEEP THE SIZE....

when i get off it will i shrink at all, when should i take it,,,,how should i take it and with what should i take it with..

i havent worked out in 1 year and a half.....im going to work out for a month first then im going to take it


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## Mudge (Oct 28, 2003)

You need to eat big to make deca work, I would not use it by itself because of deca dick for one, and your going to shut your test down double hard on deca over test. Deca is going to raise progesterone blood levels, so its is a double killer of test which is why its a bitch to recouperate from.

Cycles of deca by itself I have heard of 200-400mg a week, even 600mg by someone who I would classify as highly strange, he is of about .05% of the population that loves deca by itself.

You will lose gains yes, if your lucky you wont lose but 5-15%.

One example of deca + test, would be deca for 10 weeks and test for 12, 3 weeks later start PCT.


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## formula king (Oct 29, 2003)

just tell me EVERYTHING i need to know and how to take it


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## formula king (Oct 29, 2003)

i plan to still work out hard when i get off deca...how much will i loose(around)


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## Mudge (Oct 29, 2003)

Tell you everything? 

How much research have you done man, what is your plan dietary wise, how much caloric increase, whats your post cycle plan, how much deca are you going to do each week? 10ml tells me 25mg a week or maybe 400mg a week, which is a huge disparity.

I hope you work out hard now, that is supposed to be a given brother, the diet you will also have to keep wraps on.

Bromo is the only thing I know of "for sure" that can control progesterone gyno, deca by itself, I still dont understand why people do this. Good luck finding bromo, but if your doing 300mg or less a week you probably wont need it.

Test is best, screw the rest.


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## BUSTINOUT (Oct 29, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by formula king *_
> just tell me EVERYTHING i need to know and how to take it



ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!  Would you like him to whipe you too?


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## Mudge (Oct 29, 2003)

Its important to have some kind of idea what you are doing to your body, and have a plan layed out that is based on research. I've seen some crazy, stupid cycle ideas thrown around, and seriously following advice blindly could turn up some really negative results.

So if you could outline your basic plan we can all take a peek.


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## Randy (Oct 29, 2003)

LOL bustinout. 



> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!  Would you like him to whipe you too?


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## Randy (Oct 29, 2003)

Mudge,

How did you learn about all this stuff?  Sounds pretty confusing to me.   I would be affraid to put all that stuff in my body not knowing what the hell is going to come of it.  It seems like you would have to be a lab rat.  

I myself don't know a thing about steroids, but I heard of people I know talking about Deca.  They didn't sound like they knew much about at all, but stated they were thinking of getting some from mexico.


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

I guess if I was 100 percent confident that the stuff would not cause me any serious side effects; even when I grew old,  I would probably consider it.  But the problem is, for me I feel it is to risky and think that natural is best.


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## grdfreak (Oct 30, 2003)

get some hcg-definetly and some clomid and some bromocriptine. Be prepared to have no sex drive. try to get some test to throw in there.


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## Mudge (Oct 30, 2003)

Deca by itself is just stupid to me, I dont get it.


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## Mudge (Oct 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> How did you learn about all this stuff?  Sounds pretty confusing to me.



Plenty of people know alot more than I do (the guys that buy the $300 medical books etc), but I read what I can.


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

Yeah, but even having the books probably wouldn't help most people.  With all those damn scientific names and jargon, you would have to be a doctor to understand it.     

I think it is amazing how many people will gamble with their health on steroids.  Especially without having a clue what they're doing.  

I do agree though, if it was risk free I would do it in a heartbeat....but way to many side affects.


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## Arnold (Oct 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Yeah, but even having the books probably wouldn't help most people.  With all those damn scientific names and jargon, you would have to be a doctor to understand it.



not if you get this book:
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22190


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## ZECH (Oct 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Mudge,
> 
> How did you learn about all this stuff?  Sounds pretty confusing to me.   I would be affraid to put all that stuff in my body not knowing what the hell is going to come of it.  It seems like you would have to be a lab rat.
> ...


It comes from years of learning and experience! Just like what formula king needs!! You can't just pop up one day and say "I think I'm gonna take steriods" It doesn't work that way!


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## Mudge (Oct 30, 2003)

Most of the non-scientific books are definitely geared for the casual "gear-reader." Now if you buy a $300 medical journal thats another story, but the stuff marketed to users is pretty much easy reading, minus the occasional word or two that you may have to lookup or remembering what the hell aromatase action is and so on.


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## Mudge (Oct 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> I do agree though, if it was risk free I would do it in a heartbeat....but way to many side affects.



The sex drive is a real killer. Other than that the side I have experienced lately with fina is problems sleeping, so I am forced to back off the dose.

An uneducated anybody puts themselves at risk health wise IMO, that goes for driving a car, drinking alcohol, swallowing your toothpaste, or whatever. I'm sure you can think of many examples.


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

LOL... But I don't think you'll lose your sex drive from swallowing to much toothpaste.


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

And it seems much easier to learn the fundamentals about driving a car and drinking a beer than the affects of all the scientific names of steroids and what roles they will play on your body.


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## Mudge (Oct 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> LOL... But I don't think you'll lose your sex drive from swallowing to much toothpaste.



You have to be on some f'ed up crap to lose your sex drive man, but fluoride was not meant to be ingested.

My "needs" are approximately double while on, 7 times a day is my record, but your sack only holds so much fuel, so I took it easy.


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

Is that why the doctor said my intenstines where glowing.  Hmmm must be all the toothpaste I swallow.


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

These steroid guys will never learn....


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

I guess it's like smoking.  Everyone understands the many ways smoking will eventually kill ya, but so many still do it.
Part of the freedom of free choice.   So go ahead Mudge,  be free while you can.


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## Mudge (Oct 30, 2003)

Now that I have your permission, I shall.


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

Can I watch?...


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## Arnold (Oct 30, 2003)

I do not think that you can compare something like smoking to using steroids.


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## Mudge (Oct 30, 2003)

I can only assume Randy that you know nothing on this topic, since you bring nothing to the table other than skepticism about safety.

But thanks for playing.


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## formula king (Oct 30, 2003)

okay i will rephrase
what should i take to get bigger(not crazy big)
and defined. but at the same time safe and get least amount of side-effects. and most important the i PRETTY MUCH KEEP MY SIZE WHEN I GET OFF IT

i made no plans to take anything yet...im reading up on it now


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

No more than Mudge can compare swallowing toothpaste. 



> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I do not think that you can compare something like smoking to using steroids.


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

Mudge,

Your right, I already admitted I didn't know anything about steroids. With all of them in existance, I don't think even a doctor understands them all.  I have read enough though about how they can really do harm to your body.  That is all I'm saying.  There are always exceptions to the rule.   And those exceptions are certainly layed out on the table by those who take steroids. 






> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Mudge,
> 
> I myself don't know a thing about steroids, but I heard of people I know talking about Deca.  They didn't sound like they knew much about at all, but stated they were thinking of getting some from mexico.


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

I am stopping now...I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers in here.


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

Formula King,

Here is a good motivational link describing steroids.

http://www.med.unc.edu/medal/olympicgold/steroids.htm


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## Mudge (Oct 30, 2003)

Dude, I will give you an example.

6 years of 300mg anadrol every day, for a woman. Bodybuilders typically do 50-150mg, 250-300mg at the OUTSET for 275 pound plus bodybuilders/powerlifters.

Medical science has used way more drugs for much longer periods of time than those who partake in casual use, as for a pro bodybuilder it varies I'm sure.

I have no idea how to draw up schematics for a router, so I am not going to critisize the people that do that because I would have no fucking clue what I was talking about. Now if you are reading some wonderfull propoganda then I suppose you can continue to do so, if it scares away the idiots then it is good for them that they read it, minus the bullshit that people spout off which makes most of society think we are idiots when it is they who are uneducated on the topic.

If you dont know what you are talking about other than reading some article here or there that is probably bullshit, and you have nothing to back it up with, then ask questions or go away.

Lyle Alzedo's own doctor said he was full of shit, propoganda bullshit dude, this is not education. If I were a dying man I might point the finger too.


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

Mudge,

For some reason I do not see the distinction between routers and steroids.   As far as propaganda,  you are right!  There are boatloads of it out there.   This is why it is up to individuals like you and I to decide what is bullshit.  Well I happen to read enough facts myself to know that taking steroids can cause serious implications and even death.   The football player Alzedo, look at him for an example.  He has said that he wish he never seen a steroid with all the damage it caused to him.  

Now these are all facts Mudge, not bullshit.  I sure haven't seen any facts from you that steroid use is safe.  

The simply matter here is that I am against them, and you and I'm sure severaly others here are not.  You guys go ahead and take the steroids, I don't care.  But I am entitled to my opinions too.


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## Mudge (Oct 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Now these are all facts Mudge, not bullshit. I sure haven't seen any facts from you that steroid use is safe.



You have experience with routers, not steroids.

Try medline, if wouldn't be medicinal if it was not safe, that doesn't require much brainpower to figure out now does it? Its not a supplement that gets put out to market nearly unregulated, these are drugs that have gone through clinical studies and have been used starting in the 1930s, there is nothing to show that educated occasional steroid use does any kind of serious damage to anybodies body.

I will point out again that nearly any medical study you find with dianabol or anadrol will be much higher doses and durations than most people use outside of medicine.

One man may have twice the natural testosterone of another, yet somehow you believe by supplementing your own natural testosterone with additional sources you are somehow going to magically curl up and die?

If you dont care then leave bro, or else choose your words more carefully, mean what you say.


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## Mudge (Oct 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> The football player Alzedo, look at him for an example. He has said that he wish he never seen a steroid with all the damage it caused to him.



Do you read my posts at all or simply skim them?


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## Mudge (Oct 30, 2003)

Cessation of use
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21053

Possible side effects
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18638

The Truth
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17998

Someone gone too far
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10613

Misc

Over the last thirty years the use of anabolic steroids, anti-catabolic agents, and more recently, Human Growth Hormone has tremendously accelerated. It has been estimated that more than three million male and female athletes have used these agents and more than one million are currently using them. This is in America alone. European athletes and trainers were the pioneers in the use of anabolic steroids. By far, the largest variety of anabolic substances are manufactured and sold outside of the United States. Once the province of elite competitive athletes, the use of anabolic steroids is growing explosively among recreational athletes and bodybuilders all over the world. 

There is also a parallel increase in the use of anabolic steroids among adolescents in junior high and high school. This is not good. Unlike the hysterical and exaggerated claims of risk and damage often cited as a result of adult use of anabolic steroids, the perils of the use of such substances in adolescents are obvious, real, fairly well documented, and can be permanent. 

These dangers include, but may not be limited to, early closure of the growth plates in long bones, precocious puberty, hypogonadism, cessation of the body's own production of anabolic steroids, which may be more often permanent in adolescents than in young adults using similar hormonal products. 

Our discussion is limited to the use, effect, and side effects of anabolic steroids in young and older adults. First I want to say there is very little published in the medical literature about the use of anabolic steroids for any purpose and even less for the purpose of increasing muscle mass, strength, and athletic performance. The lack of scientific data has not deterred so-called medical experts, the media, and others from making unsupported and unsubstantiated claims about the damage and dangers of all anabolic steroid use. Even the small body of medical literature on this subject is strewn with unsupported assumptions and conclusions concerning bad side effects and politically correct condemnation of all use of anabolic steroids. 

The literature is conflicting and contradictory. But, it is safe to say that the dangers of anabolic steroids have been exaggerated. There are a few published literature reviews, which supporters use in arguing for one position or the other; either harmful or benign result. There are both historical and the evidence of experience that anabolic steroid use is not the frightening nightmare portrayed in pop culture and by official medicine. 

Anabolic steroids have been available to athletes for forty years. During that time, a few million athletes in this country alone have used them. If anabolic steroids were really dangerous and caused a broad range of permanent damage, physicians and researchers would have by this time seen and described an Athlete's Anabolic Steroid Syndrome. No such syndrome has emerged in the last thirty-to-forty years of anabolic steroids use. 


Most athletes know this. In fact, many astute athletes and bodybuilders know more about anabolic steroids then most doctors. This situation has completely undermined the credibility of medical authorities who consistently and embarrassingly flout their own ignorance. This is unfortunate because there are dangers associated with these drugs. Problems with anabolic steroids occur because of several different reasons. Some specific anabolic agents are inherently unsafe and should be used very cautiously for short periods of time or avoided altogether. The use of massive doses of steroids may play a role in steroid related medical problems. Also, there is a highly individual response to anabolic steroids.

The term, massive doses, has no real quantitative meaning because there has been no clinical work done in human beings to determine where the line is between optimal dose for strength and muscle mass and the dangers associated with very large doses. What are these dangers? Again, this is hard to pin down because the studies simply have not been done. We don't even know if the incidence of many of these serious events, assumed to be related to steroid use, occur any more frequently in steroid users, massive doses or not, than in the general population. 

At one time, it was widely thought that bodybuilders who used " massive doses" of anabolic steroids had a higher incidence of atherosclerosis resulting in a higher rate of heart attack and cardiac surgery. The consensus now is that this is not true. Bodybuilders do not have a higher incidence of heart attack than the general population. However, there are a few studies which indicate that heavy users over many years develop enlarged hearts in an anatomical pattern similar to that seen in cardiomyopathy, congestive heart failure, and hypertension. But, there is no convincing evidence, in fact no evidence at all, that even in this heavy user group, singled out by cardiac ultrasound and MRI, that the incidence rates of the actual disease states are any higher than in the general population. Only in a handful of case studies has the actual disease state been diagnosed, rather than a simple anatomical finding. 

However, I do believe it prudent to accept worst case scenario for these very serious diseases and proceed with the assumption that there is a link between disease risk and the prolonged use of massive doses. But, again what are massive doses? We have to be somewhat arbitrary. The individual cases cited in the literature involved serious competitive bodybuilders who used far larger doses of anabolic steroids than other elite athletes. Therefore, one approach to defining a safe dosage range may be found by looking at the difference between the dose and the kinds of steroids used by serious bodybuilders and the rest of the athletic community. 

There is great variation in dose but generally, the elite athlete is looking for increases in strength and endurance rather than in muscle mass, without loss of speed, agility, and flexibility. Its' the other way round with bodybuilders where the main issues are size, contour and definition. Power lifters, of course are, concerned only with strength. 
I have worked with all three. My primary interventions have centered on diet, treatment of side effects, mainly by dosage adjustment, changing protocols, or suggesting the addition of agents, which counter side effects. 

Elite game playing athletes tend to use only one or two steroids at the same time. Examples would be Winstrol, oral or injectable, testosterone esters, usually cypionate, or enanthate. Sometimes these primary androgenic anabolic steroids are used in conjunction with the non-androgenic anabolic steroid nandrolone (Decca Durabolin). 

A typical dose would be between 100-to-200 milligrams of testosterone and the same dose of nandrolone decoanate injected every four days. This is my favorite combination. Although I do prescribe doses both higher and lower than this 100-to-200 milligram range, it is more than adequate for athletes and all but the most serious hardcore bodybuilders. It is the ideal stack for the older athlete and bodybuilder because it has a long and safe history of use. Older men and women can take it for indefinite periods of time, without cycling, as part of their primary hormone replacement therapy. For women, small doses of nandrolone and testosterone are usually adequate. For maximal effect, this combination injection may be taken with a custom testosterone gel applied twice daily. The gel keeps a steady baseline level of testosterone, smoothing out the peak and valley effect produced by the injectables.

For that hardcore group of competitive bodybuilders, this drug and dosage schedule may not be enough. This group often uses many times the doses mentioned above of testosterone esters and nandrolone. It is not uncommon to see men injecting five or six c.c.s of testosterone enanthate, or mixed testosterone esters per week with 400 to 800 milligrams of nandrolone. These men often combine as many as four to six different injectable and oral anabolic steroids at once in complicated regimens. Often mixed-in are anti-catabolic drugs, beta adrenergic agents used to treat asthma such as clenbuterol, adrenal corticosteroid suppressants, like Cytadren, plus insulin, thyroid hormones, prostaglandins and a host of other seriously potent drugs and supplements in a complex program of biochemical tweaking. 

Intuitively, this makes me a little uncomfortable. These men are twiddling with basic, powerful, and delicately balanced endocrine mechanisms. The pathophysiologic changes and the theoretical possibilities for trouble go far beyond the relatively simple and benign issues involved around the use of anabolic steroids only. The vast cascading array of changes in the endocrine, immune and neurological systems and in basic cellular mechanisms is complex, unknown, and unpredictable. No one understands what is actually happening or the implications on health risks. 

I have no judgment on the men and women who utilize these radical approaches for increasing muscle mass and strength. But, I'm not sure if the rewards are worth the risks, which are largely unknown. Certainly, the competition in the upper echelons of national bodybuilding is as fierce as in any elite sport and the differences between top competitors is very small. I understand the pressure to do anything that will produce an edge. However, unless you are in this elite core of nationally competitive bodybuilders there is no reason to consider such massive dosage cycles and multiple agent mixtures. 

It is doubtful that you will be willing to put in the equally massive amounts of gym time and effort to utilize such a complicated and heavy schedule of drug use. What bothers me is that if someone does get into trouble it is doubtful that anyone will be able help them because no one will understand what's going on.

The good news is that so far there has been remarkably little evidence of harm even with use of these mind-boggling protocols. But, it may be just a matter of time before physicians begin to see problems. However, I could be wrong. We just don't know, yet.

How much is too much? Well, power lifters appear to get very strong on regimens far smaller than those used by many of the most serious bodybuilders. Elite game-playing athletes use even less. I have never treated an elite athlete or power lifter for prolonged hypogonadism-loss of ability of the testicles to produce testosterone or, azoospermia-loss of sperm production resulting in sterility. I have treated both of these conditions in six different bodybuilders.

The only thing these bodybuilders had in common was the use of very large doses, five or six c.c.s injected per week, of multiple agents, plus oral anabolics. Four of these men were in their twenties when I first saw them and had been unproductive of their own testosterone and sperm for periods ranging from six months to two-and-a-half years. In only two of these men was normal hormonal out-put for age achieved. The other four had to go on permanent life-long testosterone replacement. I am the first to admit that my practice does not permit a large enough sampling to make broad sweeping generalizations. However, our collective experience is the only thing we have to guide us in the absence of credible research.

There isn't space enough to list all the anabolic agents which one should be careful using because of liver toxicity. Most of these risky steroids, but not all, fall into the oral rather than the injectable category. Some steroids can be taken in either injectable or oral forms. It is always the oral forms which are potentially more toxic. This is because of what is known as "first hepatic pass" phenomenon. Certain oral drugs are shunted from the intestines directly into the liver to be metabolized before they are absorbed systemically. No matter, the drug, first hepatic pass puts great stress on the liver. 

Even testosterone, when methylated for oral use, becomes a dangerous drug to the liver and can cause chemical hepatitis, hemorrhagic liver cysts, and even liver cancer. This picture of possible liver damage is true for almost all oral steroids with the chemical structure that includes what is known as an alpha alkyklated carbon at the 17 carbon position. 


The most toxic of these 17-alpha alkylated steroids are Anadrol, methyltestosterone, and Halotestin in that order. These three mass building steroids are highly prized by bodybuilders for the incredible and immediate increases in muscle size and strength produced by these very androgenic and highly anabolic steroids. 
Anadrol is the most toxic and dangerous of the three. Grossly noticeable jaundice, yellow eyeballs and skin indicating liver damage can occur with only three to six weeks of use depending on dose.

If you must use one of these, three make it Halotestin. It is the least toxic of the three. Halotestin produces exceptional muscle hardness and definition with very little conversion to estrogen and virtually no water retention. It is a favorite of athletes who play burst energy sports like football and boxing because of the aggressive confidence it supposedly induces. Also, Halotestin can be obtained legally in this country, while Anadrol can be purchased only on the black market. 

Oxandrolone, also legally available in the USA, is an outstanding oral steroid because of its low side effect profile and the ability to produce great strength gains and a hard ripped look. It is not liver toxic. It will not convert to estrogen at any dose, does not suppress the body's own production of testosterone and is only weakly androgenic-meaning it causes little or no hair loss, acne or large increase in libido. For these reasons, oxandrolone is also a good choice for women in small doses. At appropriate doses, there is no virilization such as acne, increased hair growth on face and body, clitoral enlargement, or deepening of the voice. 

Oxandrolone is also a good choice to stack with other steroids. I know. I said I didn't like using multiple steroids except for testosterone and nandrolone. But, clearly, there are large numbers of people who perceive the need to stack. So, if you must stack, stack oxandrolone with nandrolone, testosterone esters, and Winstrol, or even Halotestin, for outstanding results. Nandrolone and oxandrolone together make an extremely effective combination for increasing both mass and making strong, hard, well-defined and ripped muscles while promoting virtually no side effects. 

Although oxandrolone and Primobolan are often put forward as an ideal stack for women, Primobolan is not legally available. Nandrolone is also a good choice for women to stack with oxandrolone. Four to six tablets of oxandrolone daily plus 50-to-100mg of nandrolone weekly should be enough for serious female bodybuilders. Athletic women who just want to look good and be strong can obtain gratifying results with half this dose or even less. Some dedicated female bodybuilders use steroids with more androgenic properties for at least part of their training cycle. The choice for a woman to use more androgenic hormones often depends on her choice of how much masculinization she is willing to risk.

The real negative aspect of oxandrolone is it's cost. At about four to four-and-a half-dollars per pill and the need for 8-to-12 pills per day in men, 2-to-6 in women, oxandrolone is expensive. But, there is nothing on the legal market to compete with it, which gives the manufacturers the power to charge whatever they want.

Anabolic/androgenic agents can be safely used to increase muscle mass and strength. The upper tiers of competitive sports and bodybuilding may lead the contestant into medically uncharted territory in the search for that small edge that is the difference between winning and losing. There are certain monitoring and defensive measures to reduce the possibility of liver damage and other side effects anyone using anabolic agents should consider. 

First, you should have regular monitoring with blood panels, at least once or twice per year, more frequently if indicated. This is primarily for liver function, red cell number and mass, blood lipids, estrogen levels and Prostate Specific Antigen. Although testosterone and other androgenic agents are supposed to lower cholesterol and triglycerides, clinically, the finding of elevated levels is not infrequent. 

Especially important, and most often disturbed, are HDL and LDL levels. HDL is the good cholesterol and LDL the bad cholesterol. HDL should be high and LDL should be low. With some steroid users, the reverse happens. An accepted measure of heart disease risk is the ratio between total cholesterol and HDL cholesterol, CHOL/HDLC. The average risk-ratio is 4.98. Anything above this represents significantly increased risk. I see CHOL/HDL ratios in steroid users that are above 7.25, about three times the average risk. 

This particular combination of low HDL and elevated LDL is also found in patients with liver damage. So, even in the face of normal liver studies, low HDL and high LDL with an elevated CHOL/HDLC ratio should be considered a sign not only of increased risk for atherosclerosis but also of liver damage. Both can be easily reversed if caught early and prevented from recurring. 

Elevated lipid levels and bad HDL and LDL numbers can be easily treated with many different herbs and supplements. In fact, there are too many choices. I have my favorites in terms and ease of use. Reversal of mild liver damage can also be easily achieved with natural substances. The risk of liver damage can be greatly reduced by the use of phase one and phase two liver detoxification factors. 

Red blood cell number and mass should also be followed, particularly with either heavy steroid cycles or prolonged use. Anabolic steroids increase red blood cell formation in the bone marrow. The result can be a condition called polycythemia. This just means a whole lot of red blood cells. This condition can cause sludging even clogging of small arteries. Everyone appears to have a different potential for acquiring this condition. 

There are competitive bodybuilders on huge stacks who don't over produce red cells and there are older men and women taking only small replacement doses of testosterone who do over produce red blood cells. This points to the importance of at least occasional blood testing. Donating a unit of blood on a regular schedule is the best way to treat this condition. In giving blood, you not only lower your risk of thrombosis but, you also get to help another human being, 

It is extremely important to determine estrogen blood levels. Everyone knows that testosterone is converted to estrogen. But, you fellows, don't let the formation of breast buds be the first sign that you've been making too much estrogen. It's worth periodic investment of money in blood testing to determine what level of estrogen you produce when taking what level and combination of which aromatizing substances. 

Estrogen levels can be misleading. Many hormones taken internally can confuse the estrogen lab assay producing a falsely high result. This occurs with any standard estrogen assay from any laboratory. If this phenomenon is suspected a special epitope assay must be used to validate or invalidate the first result. 

High estrogen levels are not good for men and the wrong estrogen metabolites are unhealthy for both men and women. They may increase the risk of prostate cancer, even at high normal levels. Balanced estrogen metabolism is extremely important to the health of all adults. Everyone's livers are stressed with the detoxification of so-called xenoestrogens-industrial compounds that also have estrogen-like activities. These estrogen-like pollutants are responsible for the tremendous increase in breast cancer in women and testicular cancer in men. 

This increasing burden must be carried in addition to the normal liver activities of clearing natural estrogen metabolites which increase with age. The biochemical processes, which break down estrogen into beneficial metabolites, are also responsible for detoxifying a broad range of carcinogens noted to increase the risk of hormonal cancers such as cervical, ovarian, endometrial, breast and prostate. 

Anything that coaxes the body into making the right estrogens is of benefit. There has been a lot of publicity and product advertising lately in bodybuilding publications for I3C, or indol-3-carbinol, one of several extracts of cruciferous vegetables having this property of normalizing estrogen chemistry. It is known that a better product to take is diindolemethane, or DIM. DIM is safer than I3C. I3C must be converted to DIM for biologic activity. During this process, I3C may stimulate liver cytochrome P450 enzymes to produce liver toxic reactive intermediates. I3C is also unstable both in storage and during digestion. DIM is one of the few products that appear to be beneficial for adults of all ages to take. Available evidence indicates that this is especially true for adults on hormone replacement or enhancement programs. 

A number of issues surrounding performance enhancement, the necessity for informed use of agents and how to reduce some of the known deleterious side effects have been discussed. I think this small taste will give the reader a better sense of what NewHopeMed can do for you. You're invited to take the next step in protecting and maintaining your health during hormone replacement or enhancement therapy. You can make either a full new patient consultation appointment, or a fifteen-minute $55.00 First Look Appointment to determine if we have what you want. The First Look Appointment charge will be credited to the cost of a new patient consultation, should you care to proceed with NewHopeMed. 

Written by: Dr. R Scruggs.

Now consider that women and children can also receive steroid administration, so you still somehow believe that there is no such thing as safe useage? Bull.


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

LOL   Speaking of propoganda, it seems Mudge was already prepared to defend the popular challenged steroid debate. 

People selling steroids or affiliated by steroid users profits would easily write articles such as the ones you posted to defend steroids and make them sound far less dangerous then they really are. 

It's up to the individual to decide for themselfs...  I could easily match you Mudge, and fill up this thread with accredited authors emphasizing the dangers of steroids... But why!  You've already made up your mind Mudge!  And that is your choice.


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## Mudge (Oct 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> But why!  You've already made up your mind Mudge!  And that is your choice.



I ran a quick search before bed, and I made up my mind thanks to _research_ over a year and a half ago. There was a time when I too thought ill of them, because I didn't know better.

The life of an ignorant man, is one of blindness.


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

Mudge,

You tell that to all the people undergoing serious repercussions as a result of prior years of steroid use. 

Oh, and can I use your quote too? It seems to work both ways. If I can, then it will save me the 2 minutes it will take to find a nice quote on the internet to slam down for you. 



> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> I ran a quick search before bed, and I made up my mind thanks to _research_ over a year and a half ago. There was a time when I too thought ill of them, because I didn't know better.
> 
> The life of an ignorant man, is one of blindness.


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## Just a guy (Oct 30, 2003)

nice motto... shits true


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## Mudge (Oct 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Oh, and can I use your quote too? It seems to work both ways. If I can, then it will save me the 2 minutes it will take to find a nice quote on the internet to slam down for you.



I like quotes, go for it. If you'd like to make a post on the negatives, and the people who have suffered feel very free to make a new topic on it. I have nothing against that at all, however through educated use I believe anybody can avoid these pitfalls, its the idiots and abusers who suffer IMO.

Otherwise I would not post articles of this nature either.


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## Dale Mabry (Oct 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> 
> The football player Alzedo, look at him for an example.  He has said that he wish he never seen a steroid with all the damage it caused to him.




If a subject has taken med A and comes down with condition B, he cannot conclude that med A caused condition B unless all other variables are controlled for.  Something tells me Lyle did not spend his entire life in a lab eating the same diet after undergoing a multitude of tests to clear him of any underlying  genetic condition.


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## Mudge (Oct 30, 2003)

Sure is amazing how Brian Bosworth and all the rest survived with no problems, Arnold still has his brain, Lou does, and so on.

Heck look at Albert Beckles still juicing!

Born:  July 14, 1930
http://www.bodybuilding.com/bodybuilders/albert.htm


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## Dale Mabry (Oct 30, 2003)

Wow, that guy is amazing, and 73 to boot.


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

I can speak of people that lived to be 100 who smoked 3 packs of cigarettes all their lives too.  Does that mean that smoking is not harmful to your health? Does that mean that the majority of others aren't so fortunate?  Hell no....  Just because you name a few people who are going strong after taking steroids doesn't mean jack.   And besides, I heard Arnold has had some serious ailments as a result of steroids.  He may not show it on the outside, but you don't really know what's ticking inside his body.
Nor do you know on any of the others as well.  Most people will deny taking steroids.  At least I would.  I wouldn't want people to know that I achieved my muscle growth as a result of steroids.
I would much rather know that I did it naturally.

We can interchange the pros and cons all day and night.  I'm done wasting my time on this subject.  Like the several 2-3 pack a day smokers that are fortunate to live past 90-100,  Keep on Juicin bud.   It's your choice.  Me! My bodybuilding will be done naturally.   I will be much more proud to say I did it naturally as well, without the need for steroids to get there.   Any bozo can shoot a needle into their arm, or ass, or wherever. 

Ok, you guys have the last word....I'm done.

Good night.


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## Mudge (Oct 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> And besides, I heard Arnold has had some serious ailments as a result of steroids. He may not show it on the outside, but you don't really know what's ticking inside his body.



Do some research on his father and brother who are both already dead, he has outlived them all. His mother died only a couple years ago.

I heard Ronald McDonald was gay 

Peace dude.


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## Randy (Oct 30, 2003)

No Mudge, I don't need to research to know that steroids cause your body a variety of problems.  As I said,  I am finished here. 
Now whether Ronald McDonald is gay or not is none of my concern.    Now you can come up with a better analogy then that.  Mudge,  are you feelin ok?  You seem obsessed with gay behavior.  I told you, your barking up the wrong tree for that. 



> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Do some research on his father and brother who are both already dead, he has outlived them all. His mother died only a couple years ago.
> 
> I heard Ronald McDonald was gay
> ...


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## BUSTINOUT (Oct 30, 2003)

DAMMIT...TAKE YOUR  and SHOVE 'EM!!!!!!


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## ZECH (Oct 31, 2003)

Randy, I really feel that your opinions and beliefs on steriods come from people who ABUSE them. I think taken in a safe and responsible manner at a moderate dose, it can be safe with little side effects. Now you will always have some that have bad reactions and side effects from them, but I'm talking majority.


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## Randy (Oct 31, 2003)

DG,

Put into prospective the way you described,  I can respect that.

Oh, and Bustin..... this is for you


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## Randy (Oct 31, 2003)

Happy Halloween everyone!

Even you Mudge...


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## Mudge (Oct 31, 2003)

You know, there are doctors on the boards who use.

Swale who will do consultations (for a fee of course), has spoken of using anadrol more than once, and this is our great "liver killer."


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## crackerjack414 (Oct 31, 2003)

mudge its that hamburgler u gotta watch out for the other day my fat ass was trying to eat a big mac and stole my second one so i had to chase him down in due manner and teach him a lesson about stealing hamburgers lol


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## Randy (Oct 31, 2003)

Cracker,

Yes, fast foods will kill you before steroids.  I do agree with that.


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## Mudge (Oct 31, 2003)

I will admit to going to Burger King 3 days ago


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## Randy (Oct 31, 2003)

Yeah, I think we all can admit to it at one time or another.
But one thing I can say,  that fast food sure tastes good .
That is what makes it hard staying away from it.


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## Randy (Oct 31, 2003)

I love mexican food.  It is very hard for me to stay away from it.
But I guess other than being fattening, it is not as bad as some things.


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## Mudge (Oct 31, 2003)

Pizza is my primary sin, once a week. Mexican food also rocks, there is a great burrito place here, Italian food also kicks ass - as do the women, on both sides, yummy.


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## Randy (Oct 31, 2003)

Come on Mudge!  Now your making me fricken hungry dammit.


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## Mudge (Oct 31, 2003)

You can keep the food if I can have the womens.


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