# Pull-ups



## PushAndPull (Dec 10, 2009)

If you use the pull-up bar that is shaped the same as the lat pulldown bar, would there be any reason to do pull-ups with the normal bar?


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## Gazhole (Dec 11, 2009)

Not sure i quite understand the question because my gym has about 12 different lat pulldown attachments. If you're asking whether any of those attachments are superior to the straight pullup bar then thats just a preference issue.

Go with whats comfortable.


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## juggernaut (Dec 11, 2009)

I think he's asking if there is a difference between lat pulldowns and slightly wide grip pullups.
Yes there is a difference-colossal actually. Lat pulldowns are far less superior when matched. Regardless of grip positioning you should definitely do chins first. 
So, get off your fat ass and start chinning bitch!


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## stepaukas (Dec 11, 2009)

juggernaut
chinups are for wussies. he's asking about pullups, so get off your fat ass and do pullups... not chinups!!!!!


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## juggernaut (Dec 11, 2009)

stepaukas said:


> juggernaut
> chinups are for wussies. he's asking about pullups, so get off your fat ass and do pullups... not chinups!!!!!


enough with grammatical bullshit, asshole.


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## Arnold (Dec 11, 2009)

PushAndPull said:


> would there be any reason to do pull-ups with the normal bar?



well, you can adjust the weight when doing a lat pull down, you're lmited to your body weight on the pull ups unless you use a weight belt to hang weights from your hips, I think the main difference is convenience.


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## juggernaut (Dec 11, 2009)

I disagree; the PULLup is a much tougher exercise and therefore may be more beneficial. But yes, if a chin bar isn't handy, a lat pulldown will definitely suffice.


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## PushAndPull (Dec 11, 2009)

I'm speaking of the actual shape of the pull-up bar. I'm doing pull-ups with one of those door jam jobs. The straight bar part of it isn't very comfortable because I can't get a wide enough grip. It has another bar I use instead(which is shaped like a lat pulldown bar) which has a wider grip so i have been doing those instead. I doubt there is any reason to do reg pull-ups as well, but was just curious.


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## Arnold (Dec 11, 2009)

you don't need a wide grip, in fact a wide grip can cause shoulder problems, a shoulder width grip is good.


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## PushAndPull (Dec 11, 2009)

Gazhole said:


> Not sure i quite understand the question because my gym has about 12 different lat pulldown attachments. If you're asking whether any of those attachments are superior to the straight pullup bar then thats just a preference issue..



I guess I should have said that it was shaped like the standard lat pulldown bar. I tried to find out if the bar actually had a name, but google failed me.



Gazhole said:


> Go with whats comfortable.



I hear you on that. Otherwise you believe it's basically the same?


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## PushAndPull (Dec 11, 2009)

Robert D. said:


> you don't need a wide grip, in fact a wide grip can cause shoulder problems, a shoulder width grip is good.



I hear you. Remember the door jam job -lol- The straight bar part is just to narrow. The other bar is basically shoulder width which is perfect, the only difference is the grip. Instead of it being straight where you grip it's angled slightly downward.


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## BigBackGrips (Dec 11, 2009)

*The angled bar usually lets the wrist joints work more naturally.*

I have always found a wide grip on a completely straight bar is not helpful to the wrist joints and so takes away from the lat workout. 

_But with back, there is so much going on, a lot of different muscles working slightly differently depending on what you're doing,_ that you want as much variety as possible, so go for a different assortment of handles over the course of different workouts.


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## PushAndPull (Dec 11, 2009)

BigBackGrips said:


> But with back, there are so much going, a lot of different muscles working slightly differently depending on what you're doing,[/I] that you want as much variety as possible, so go for a different assortment of handles over the course of different workouts.



I agree with this.
I also do chin-ups and pull-ups with the peg type grips(my best description) it's just the straight bar pull-ups that are too narrow so i don't do them.


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## soxmuscle (Dec 11, 2009)

pull-ups are great but like Robert, the most obvious difference between the two exercises is convenience.

for instance, i can do 15 bw pull-ups with relative ease but because i don't want to be in that high of a rep range, i'll do weighted chins, lat pulldowns or both.

if someone can only do one or two pull-ups, i see no problem in starting with pull-ups for a set or two, but eventually you should move over to the pull downs to build strength in your lats that you can't get through a couple of momentum-filled, form-lacking pull-up reps.


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## soxmuscle (Dec 11, 2009)

Robert D. said:


> you don't need a wide grip, in fact a wide grip can cause shoulder problems, a shoulder width grip is good.



right.

also, some idiots bring the bar behind their heads.  i wouldn't advise doing that either.


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## juggernaut (Dec 11, 2009)

BigBackGrips said:


> I have always found a wide grip on a completely straight bar is not helpful to the wrist joints and so takes away from the lat workout.


Agreed


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## soxmuscle (Dec 11, 2009)

Personally, I think the pull-up machine that takes weight away is pretty much crap.

thoughts?


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## BigBackGrips (Dec 11, 2009)

*Agreed. Don't much care for "cheat machine".*

You're better off with a spotter helping only when you need it and not much then


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## juggernaut (Dec 11, 2009)

^^ that yellow ad actually deters me from wanting to buy the sandpaper looking thing you sell. Wanna shrink it?


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## BigBackGrips (Dec 11, 2009)

juggernaut said:


> ^^ that yellow ad actually deters me from wanting to buy the sandpaper looking thing you sell. Wanna shrink it?



If I shrink it, will you buy the grips? Will you follow the instructions to get the free extra pair.

If you say yes, I'll shrink it.

Here, this one is smaller.


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## BigBackGrips (Dec 11, 2009)

*Do you like it better in black?*



juggernaut said:


> ^^ that yellow ad actually deters me from wanting to buy the sandpaper looking thing you sell. Wanna shrink it?


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## juggernaut (Dec 11, 2009)

no-too much work..reading and following directions. 
I'm pretty sure I prefer developing grip strength than your way.


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## Merkaba (Dec 11, 2009)

Wow Glad I saw that about the grips!  I lost(or was robbed of) my other pair.  I really like them!  I'll be ordering my two pair soon!


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## BigBackGrips (Dec 11, 2009)

Merkaba said:


> Wow Glad I saw that about the grips!  I lost(or was robbed of) my other pair.  I really like them!  I'll be ordering my two pair soon!



We look forward to your order.


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## BigBackGrips (Dec 11, 2009)

juggernaut said:


> no-too much work..reading and following directions.
> I'm pretty sure I prefer developing grip strength than your way.



That's cool. A lot of serious pro's use these, but everyone has their favorite. Personally, I like to focus totally on the set and take my hands out of the equation.


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## juggernaut (Dec 12, 2009)

BigBackGrips said:


> That's cool. A lot of serious pro's use these, but everyone has their favorite. Personally, I like to focus totally on the set and take my hands out of the equation.


oh, now I have to get them. I want to be serious.


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## Built (Dec 12, 2009)

Jugg, play nice. <stern look>

I'm with BBG on this one actually - I don't like to think too much about my hands when I'm working my back.  I usually use over-under grip until that stops working - then I use straps. 

These grips, what are they - are they just kinda sticky sandpaper like Jugg suggests? How does using them differ from using straps?


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## BigBackGrips (Dec 12, 2009)

*Fair Question, Built. There'*



Built said:


> Jugg, play nice. <stern look>
> 
> I'm with BBG on this one actually - I don't like to think too much about my hands when I'm working my back.  I usually use over-under grip until that stops working - then I use straps.
> 
> These grips, what are they - are they just kinda sticky sandpaper like Jugg suggests? How does using them differ from using straps?



Built, thanks for the question. The short answer is: comfort, cush, and GRAB. They grip metal better than anything out there. So a better set, better pump. If you really want to squeeze out those extra reps, Big Backs will become your best friends. Check out Merkaba's comments on this thread. 

Now, I'll try to keep it short, but if we can really deliver the better workout we promise it's worth a few words.

Big Back Grips are not sand paper; we manufacture them with a deep rubber tread (like a tire) on both sides so they grip just about anything. We have them made as tough as possible to hold up in the gym. And you can use them for bi's, tri's, chest, shoulder, _and especially back!_

As far as straps go, they essentially lash the weight to the bones in your hands, pull the wrist joints away from each other and function like a noose to cut circulation. Some guys like them, and more power to them. But we have a lot of customers who gave up straps and now use Big Backs. (See the VJ Hils on our homepage.)

Now, imagine lat handles that look like this becoming your favorite handles in the gym:




Big Back Grips will make the roughest (or smoothest) bars feel good, really really good in your hands[/B].  And they will give you a slip-free grip with little effort on your part. Your effort is saved for lats, traps, bi's, tri's, etc.

Result: _All your focus goes into the rep_, into the set. Your are hands are comfy, your grip is solid with near zero slippage, your set is better, your pump is better. 

This guy is Jeremy. We met him at Muscle Beach on Memorial Day. You can see his comments in the video and the youtube page. Check out the user comments on our website, too. Mike, our homepage, explains it really well. 

Also, 10 IronMagazine members are testing them. I'm sure they will post their comments soon.







YouTube Video


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## Built (Dec 12, 2009)

Well, wow, thank you for all that. 

I missed the post - I have this thing called "day job", <sigh>, and the giveaway was all given away by the time I got online. 

The reason I'm interested is because I have a herniated disk in my neck that has caused me to lose considerable grip strength (it's funny, but when the signal doesn't get to your fingers, they don't work so well - I know, right? I was as surprised as you are. Right around the time I dropped a bowl of soup onto my laptop last summer... grrr...). 

I'll see how the fellas respond to them. Maybe order up a pair myself. Thanks again for the info.


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## Hoglander (Dec 12, 2009)

I'm not that big and lat machines are uselessly to easy to max. I think that if you pre-exhaust with weighted narrow (full range of motion) parallel grip pullup/chinups it's fine to use them after that. Or like built has suggested in the past.... one arm pull-downs on the lat machine.   

Here the rub though. The fucking rubber on the lat machines gets loose and rolls. You can not get a good grip. I go straight to a metal bar. I've even secretly torn off the failed rubber crap to get to the textured metal grip.

IMHO, you should master your bodyweight first.


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## BigBackGrips (Dec 12, 2009)

*Ha. I can't deny that I tend to run on.*



Built said:


> Well, wow, thank you for all that.
> 
> I missed the post - I have this thing called "day job", <sigh>, and the giveaway was all given away by the time I got online.
> 
> ...



The biggest kick I get out of this is watching the skeptical look on someone's face change as soon as they hit a set hard with the grips. It's challenging to really make it clear just by typing, even with videos. A fun challenge tho.


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## Built (Dec 12, 2009)

I bet they'd work great for powercleans! I have yet to figure out a way to use straps for those (and of course, mixed-grip is out of the question! LOL!)


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## Hoglander (Dec 12, 2009)

BigBackGrips said:


> Built, thanks for the question. The short answer is: comfort, cush, and GRAB. They grip metal better than anything out there. So a better set, better pump. If you really want to squeeze out those extra reps, Big Backs will become your best friends. Check out Merkaba's comments on this thread.
> 
> Now, I'll try to keep it short, but if we can really deliver the better workout we promise it's worth a few words.
> 
> ...



I circumference of the metal in the vid seems extremely thin.


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## BigBackGrips (Dec 12, 2009)

*Regarding that torn rubber on the handles...*



Hoglander said:


> I'm not that big and lat machines are uselessly to easy to max. I think that if you pre-exhaust with weighted narrow (full range of motion) parallel grip pullup/chinups it's fine to use them after that. Or like built has suggested in the past.... one arm pull-downs on the lat machine.
> 
> Here the rub though. The fucking rubber on the lat machines gets loose and rolls. You can not get a good grip. I go straight to a metal bar. I've even secretly torn off the failed rubber crap to get to the textured metal grip.
> 
> IMHO, you should master your bodyweight first.



One of the really annoying things about torn rubber is that it rolls around the bar and you can't "grab" it. (We tell gym owners to stop repairing it just provide the BBGs. 
Hog, if the torn rubber leaves even an inch of metal showing, Big Backs will grab onto even that little bit of metal and the torn stuff won't matter.


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## BigBackGrips (Dec 12, 2009)

*Deadlifts, definitely. Powerclean....*



Built said:


> I bet they'd work great for powercleans! I have yet to figure out a way to use straps for those (and of course, mixed-grip is out of the question! LOL!)



I don't have a powerlifting background, I'm not the expert there. They may give you more control. But if you opposing hand deadlifts, guys _love _them for that. (Same-hand deadlifts, well, the bar will still just roll.)


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## Built (Dec 12, 2009)

Powercleans are an Olympic lift, not a powerlift. Deadlifts are a powerlift. 

I can't help but think they'd help for cleans. Are they very thick? I need something that is quite thin - I'm female and my hands are small around the bar already.


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## BigBackGrips (Dec 12, 2009)

*And what happened to Juggernaut? He got real quiet.*

He doesn't strike me as the quiet type. I made this black for him. He HATES the yellow.


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## Built (Dec 12, 2009)

He's sleeping. 

PS I like the black better, too.


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## BigBackGrips (Dec 12, 2009)

*No, not thick. 1/8" but still a nice "cush".*



Built said:


> Powercleans are an Olympic lift, not a powerlift. Deadlifts are a powerlift.
> 
> I can't help but think they'd help for cleans. Are they very thick? I need something that is quite thin - I'm female and my hands are small around the bar already.



The guys at my gym keep them palmed mostly. It's funny to watch. Some guys just really like the way they feel. They kind of sit in the palm without falling out so guy just kind of get of on squishing them around between sets. (They don't know anyone is watching of course.)


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## BigBackGrips (Dec 13, 2009)

*It's a reasonably standard handle that many gyms have.*



Hoglander said:


> I circumference of the metal in the vid seems extremely thin.



But it is a little thin. We bought it for demos. Thicker bars "spread the pain" over a wider area. This is another handle we use for demos. Some guys really like the thick handle; the stress/pain is not so focused. It's a really nice combo wth the grips if you go for thick.


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## Built (Dec 13, 2009)

I think what Hoglander was getting at is the fact that a thinner bar is easier to grip - even with the increased thickness from the pad it won't be so large as to make it hard for a smaller hand to hold - which has been my concern also but I'm willing to give 'em a shot - like I said, if they help for cleans I'll be delighted!


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## juggernaut (Dec 13, 2009)

I've been away launching my product line. I'm back and read the thread...here's what I came away with:

a) These arent for me, since I like to seriously work on my grip with my slow transition into strongman from bbing.
b) they still look like a piece of rubber grippy sandpaper. If I cant do it, I work on it and overcome the obstacle. 
c) I am not into in-your-face advertising.  I say that respectfully and wish you luck.


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## Hoglander (Dec 13, 2009)

Built said:


> I think what Hoglander was getting at is the fact that a thinner bar is easier to grip - even with the increased thickness from the pad it won't be so large as to make it hard for a smaller hand to hold - which has been my concern also but I'm willing to give 'em a shot - like I said, if they help for cleans I'll be delighted!



Built you are correct, again.


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## Hoglander (Dec 13, 2009)

On another note:

If chin-up is this and pull-up in that.... what is a parallel-grip-up called? I'd call them a "nipple-up" because of the range you can get.


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## Built (Dec 13, 2009)

Hoglander said:


> On another note:
> 
> If chin-up is this and pull-up in that.... what is a parallel-grip-up called? I'd call them a "nipple-up" because of the range you can get.



Pervert. 

<runs>


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## Burner02 (Dec 14, 2009)

soxmuscle said:


> Personally, I think the pull-up machine that takes weight away is pretty much crap.
> 
> thoughts?


How about this thought.
When I first started doing pull ups, I had no spotter, and I couldn't do very many reps. The The Gravitron helped w/ that.
Loaded up the weight so I could get my reps in. Got stronger, decerased weight till I could get in my sets in, then went to regular pull ups. Once I could do 50 reps inside 5 sets (I got that from Arnold....) I  started adding weight...just a stepping stone to greater things.


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## Gazhole (Dec 14, 2009)

Another reason do include the lat pulldown machine in your program is the lack of unilateral vertical pulling otherwise.

Very little holds a candle to pullups in terms of back development imo.


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## juggernaut (Dec 14, 2009)

Agreed with Gaz. Plus the grip work you get is insane. Who wants puny forearms? I do notice that after I started working my grip, my deadlift, rows and chinning numbers and also the atlas stones became much easier to handle.


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## Merkaba (Dec 15, 2009)

Guys you know I'll shoot straight with you.  They're only like 7 bucks shipped.  You get two pair by the end of the year with the promo code. I think everyone should try them.    Like I said I had a pair and didn't like when they cam up missing. They are basically rubber/foam...some type of poly something I'm sure.  I don't have the strongest grip so maybe that's why i like them. It just feels more natural than my 40 dollar padded gloves. To me they are worth it just for rows alone. I use them with rack pulls too cause it allows me to use the straps a few reps later than I would otherwise.    

Built geez you sound like me.  My scoliosis in my lower makes my left leg a tad bit weaker than my right.  I have to be careful.  I think it also affects my left shoulder/arm some too.


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## ArnoldsProtege (Dec 21, 2009)

Hmm... though I am not a huge fan of blatant advertising either, these do seem to deliver value. My straps went missing *cough*stolen*cough* and the rubber has fallen off the main pullup bar at the gym, leaving it cold and slippery. Pull ups have certainly become one of my new favorites since I have gotten in good enough shape to get good sets out of them.

7 bucks for two pairs seems worth it to try it out... how would I go about aquiring them for said price? (I am in canada, eh)


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## soxmuscle (Dec 21, 2009)

Burner02 said:


> How about this thought.
> When I first started doing pull ups, I had no spotter, and I couldn't do very many reps. The The Gravitron helped w/ that.
> Loaded up the weight so I could get my reps in. Got stronger, decerased weight till I could get in my sets in, then went to regular pull ups. Once I could do 50 reps inside 5 sets (I got that from Arnold....) I  started adding weight...just a stepping stone to greater things.



I never said that they can't help you be able to do a pull-up, but I would prefer to use the Lat Pulldown for somebody unable to do one.

Nice work, btw.


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## BigBackGrips (Dec 21, 2009)

*Well, sorry about the "blatant advertising", but we're all about a better workout.*

Easy to acquire. Just order from the website, put "IronMagazine" in the shipping instructions, and we ship them off! I have to tell you, we make these for all those torn rubber coatings, nasty knurled (diamond-cut) bars, and slippery chrome or enamel painted chinning bars. You'll get a better workout on all of them! 

There you go!

I'll be subtle this time: just a web address.
www.bigbackgrips.com



ArnoldsProtege said:


> Hmm... though I am not a huge fan of blatant advertising either, these do seem to deliver value. My straps went missing *cough*stolen*cough* and the rubber has fallen off the main pullup bar at the gym, leaving it cold and slippery. Pull ups have certainly become one of my new favorites since I have gotten in good enough shape to get good sets out of them.
> 
> 7 bucks for two pairs seems worth it to try it out... how would I go about aquiring them for said price? (I am in canada, eh)


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## soxmuscle (Dec 21, 2009)

just make those pictures that alter the boards dimensions smaller.  thanks.


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## BigBackGrips (Dec 22, 2009)

*I think we can handle that.*

We want to be participants on the board, and let you know when special offers to Ironmagazine members are happening.  Let us know what you want to know, what you expect from the products you buy.

www.bigbackgrips.com


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## fufu (Dec 22, 2009)

Built said:


> I bet they'd work great for powercleans! I have yet to figure out a way to use straps for those (and of course, mixed-grip is out of the question! LOL!)



Have you tried a hook-grip?


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## gtbmed (Dec 22, 2009)

fufu said:


> Have you tried a hook-grip?



Built, I would suggest trying the hook grip and seeing how that works.

It will feel uncomfortable at first, but it provides a lot better security than a traditional grip.


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## Built (Dec 22, 2009)

I have tried that grip, and damn it's painful! You have my respect if you can put up with that!


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## fufu (Dec 22, 2009)

Built said:


> I have tried that grip, and damn it's painful! You have my respect if you can put up with that!



To me it was just like adapting to back squats for the first time, or front squats. 

It hurts at first, then it is great. (maybe there is one more reference for this)


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## tailender1 (Dec 26, 2009)

just sharing my experience here. I used to do lat pull downs on a machine. I never felt any effects on my back. I have started pull ups recently and i feel they have significant effect on my back. I might have done the pull downs wrong.. but i find pullups are more effective in my case


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