# Extremely chilling story(news)



## Fetusaurus Rex (Jul 6, 2007)

2 Fla. teens arrested for gang rape - USATODAY.com


WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. (AP) ??? Two teenagers were accused of gang raping a woman and forcing her 12-year-old son to join in the attack, then beating him and pouring cleaning solution into his eyes.

Authorities allege Avion Lawson, 14, and Nathan Walker, 16, were among a group of about 10 masked suspects who forced their way into the woman's apartment in a crime-ridden housing project the night of June 18.

The two were being held without bail Friday on suspicion of armed sexual battery by multiple perpetrators, sexual performance by a child, armed home invasion and aggravated battery. Both were arrested this week, but formal charges had not been filed.

"Any rape case is horrible but this takes it to another level, something you can't think of even in your worst dreams," police spokesman Ted White said.

According to the police report, a man knocked on the woman's door at about 9 p.m. and told her he had a flat tire. The mother and son, whom police have not identified, went outside and were ambushed by a group of gun-wielding suspects.
FIND MORE STORIES IN: Walker

The victims told police they were forced back into their home and beaten and sexually assaulted. According to authorities, the men raped, sodomized and beat the woman, then forced her son to participate in the assault at gunpoint, making him have sex with his mother in front of them.

The boy was then beaten and had numerous household cleaning liquids poured into his eyes, according to the police report.

The suspects also stole a few hundred dollars worth of cash and jewelry, White said.

White said more arrests were pending, but he would not say if authorities had identified additional suspects. The teens in custody were not cooperating, but Lawson confessed to taking part in the attack, White said. Walker has denied involvement, White said.

DNA evidence in a condom found in the victims' home linked Lawson to the crime, police said. Investigators also say they found a palm print belonging to Walker at the scene.

The victims did not suffer life-threatening injuries and have been released from the hospital, White said.

"They're going through the county victim services for counseling," he said.

Lawson lived in Dunbar Village, the hardscrabble project where the attack occurred. Walker was apparently visiting a friend there, White said.

Authorities believe the suspects all knew each other from the neighborhood, but they don't think they knew the victims directly.

Prosecutors have 21 days from the time a suspect is arrested to formally file charges. Lawson was arrested Tuesday. Walker was arrested Thursday.

A call to Lawson's public defender was not immediately returned. It was not known if Walker has an attorney.


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## min0 lee (Jul 6, 2007)

A dull knife across their necks would do just dandy.


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## bio-chem (Jul 6, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> A dull knife across their necks would do just dandy.



too easy. we should give them to one of our less than reputable allies that dont really follow the geneva convention


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## Hoglander (Jul 6, 2007)

They will be killed in prison or soon after.


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## bio-chem (Jul 6, 2007)

Hoglander said:


> They will be killed in prison or soon after.



they are all underage. if the system fails then they will be released on their 18th birthdays


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## The Monkey Man (Jul 6, 2007)

You people are looking past the issue...

Those punks wouldn't exist if there were no welfare, or welfare recipients were required to be sterilized to collect their $$

Our government is breeding a criminal army in what used to be our parents and grand parents homes...
and we are paying for it


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## bio-chem (Jul 6, 2007)

cue the crazy conspiracy theorist


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## KelJu (Jul 6, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> A dull knife across their necks would do just dandy.



WRONG WRONG WRONG!

These guys deserve to be tortured to death.


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## The Monkey Man (Jul 6, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> cue the crazy conspiracy theorist



Yeah, because none of that happens everyday in the innercities -


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## KelJu (Jul 6, 2007)

The Monkey Man said:


> Yeah, because none of that happens everyday in the innercities -



Wasn't it just recently that a story even more vicious where a girl's boyfriend was shot in front of her than they raped, tortured, and killed the girl?


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## Hoglander (Jul 6, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> they are all underage. if the system fails then they will be released on their 18th birthdays



I don't think all 10 are. Concerning the ones that were mentioned, I stand by my comment just the same and I'll add this...  they will be lucky to see their 18th. That's just the way it works in that World. They will have a target a mile wide on their backs. Criminals have kids and mothers too. ; )


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## The Monkey Man (Jul 6, 2007)

Hoglander said:


> I don't think all 10 are. Concerning the ones that were mentioned, I stand by my comment just the same and I'll add this...  they will be lucky to see their 18th. That's just the way it works in that World. They will have a target a mile wide on their backs. Criminals have kids and mothers too. ; )



All the more reason to eradicate wefare and handouts, and make them all go get jobs "Americans don't want to do"


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## BoneCrusher (Jul 6, 2007)

Two explorers are in a remote Jungle when they are taken captive by a tribe of 7' tall natives.  The tribe elder is pissed and demands punishment for the trespassers so he asks the 1st explorer to make a choice ... death?  Orrrr boogBOOGA.  The explorer of course choses boogabooga cuz, who wants to die right?  So 6 of the 7' tall natives begin giving this guy the ass-raping of all ass-rapings.  We're talkin' a real train running butt poundiung that lasted the whole day.  When it was over the head elder looks over at the remaining explorer and asks him to make _his_ choice ... Death? or boogaBOOGA.  Well, that 2nd explorer just didn't have the stomach for all that ass pounding he watched his friend take.  He said he'd rather be dead.  Soo the elder granted him his desire.  The entire tribe began to lead the 2nd explorer away.  The 1st explorer asked where they were taking his old friend and the elder replied "To his death ... by boogaBOOOOOGA!!!!!".

These asshats that raped that family deserve nothing less than death ... by boogaBOOOOOGA!!!!!


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## Fetusaurus Rex (Jul 6, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> Two explorers are in a remote Jungle when they are taken captive by a tribe of 7' tall natives.  The tribe elder is pissed and demands punishment for the trespassers so he asks the 1st explorer to make a choice ... death?  Orrrr boogBOOGA.  The explorer of course choses boogabooga cuz, who wants to die right?  So 6 of the 7' tall natives begin giving this guy the ass-raping of all ass-rapings.  We're talkin' a real train running butt poundiung that lasted the whole day.  When it was over the head elder looks over at the remaining explorer and asks him to make _his_ choice ... Death? or boogaBOOGA.  Well, that 2nd explorer just didn't have the stomach for all that ass pounding he watched his friend take.  He said he'd rather be dead.  Soo the elder granted him his desire.  The entire tribe began to lead the 2nd explorer away.  The 1st explorer asked where they were taking his old friend and the elder replied "To his death ... by boogaBOOOOOGA!!!!!".
> 
> These asshats that raped that family deserve nothing less than death ... by boogaBOOOOOGA!!!!!





hahahahahahahahahahahahah


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## The Monkey Man (Jul 6, 2007)

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/open-chat/58579-funny-joke.html#post1225588


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## BoneCrusher (Jul 6, 2007)

The Monkey Man said:


> http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/open-chat/58579-funny-joke.html#post1225588



Meh ... my ver was better, shorter, and I been telling it since I was 12 so


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## Jodi (Jul 6, 2007)

A murder a few miles away from me.  Doesn't matter where you live.  Good neighborhoods or not, you will always have the scum around.   Poor girl!  In a case like this, death penalty for underage is certainly deserving.

2 teen boys arrested in teen's death


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## Little Wing (Jul 7, 2007)

Hoglander said:


> They will be killed in prison or soon after.



kinda ironic we imprison violent criminals then hope they will do our dirty work for us when some scum our government doesn't have the balls to kill gets sent to prison. 

and monkeyman it costs way more to keep one man in prison for a year than it does to feed, house, clothe etc a whole family on welfare i'd wager probably including medical care. and how many prisoners are we supporting? i think sending out a clear message that crime will only get you dead is the better way to go. not saying your idea is a bad one, i just suspect there's more money and resources to reclaim from the prison systems.


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## KelJu (Jul 7, 2007)

The Monkey Man said:


> http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/open-chat/58579-funny-joke.html#post1225588




Oh boohoo. do you want a boogabooga to feel better?


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## soxmuscle (Jul 7, 2007)

It sucks that somebody like me may actually have a problem with our tires and yet, more and more people will refuse to help you because of the possibility of something like this happen.

Why won't they just go away so we can live life like the old days?


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## bio-chem (Jul 7, 2007)

the old days? when exactly would that be?   none of this stuff is new. we just have more publicity now about it. i hope the publicity does some good and we learn from this and figure out what we need to do better


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## The Monkey Man (Jul 7, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> kinda ironic we imprison violent criminals then hope they will do our dirty work for us when some scum our government doesn't have the balls to kill gets sent to prison.
> 
> and monkeyman it costs way more to keep one man in prison for a year than it does to feed, house, clothe etc a whole family on welfare i'd wager probably including medical care. and how many prisoners are we supporting? i think sending out a clear message that crime will only get you dead is the better way to go. not saying your idea is a bad one, i just suspect there's more money and resources to reclaim from the prison systems.



Ummmm...

You are missing the point that we wont need as many expensive prisons, or systems, or trial and court costs, or police funding...  If the criminal element gradually just disappears.

Everything will be cheaper and nicer...
Less criminals = better quality of life


Truth is:  I dont get a free handout, and neither should anyone else.
If you want something, you work for it, period.

Fat lazy americans have forgotton that


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## KelJu (Jul 7, 2007)

The Monkey Man said:


> Ummmm...
> 
> You are missing the point that we wont need as many expensive prisons, or systems, or trial and court costs, or police funding...  If the criminal element gradually just disappears.
> 
> ...






Our system evolved from a do or die attitude to an attitude of enabling loser and rejects. 

If you violently rape someone, you should die. 
If you kill someone you should die. 
If you are too lazy to work, you should starve to death.

There are hardworking people that work shitty jobs that don't pay much who are raising kids and doing the best they can, and they get very little or nothing. The government spends more on criminals and losers than they do an the people keeping this shit bucket going.


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## DontStop (Jul 7, 2007)

"go midevil on thier ass"
-- Mr. Wallace.


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## Little Wing (Jul 7, 2007)

The Monkey Man said:


> Ummmm...
> 
> You are missing the point that we wont need as many expensive prisons, or systems, or trial and court costs, or police funding...  If the criminal element gradually just disappears.
> 
> ...



I'm afraid abruptly ending welfare would cause a drastic increase in crime, crimes perpetrated by desperate people. If you send a clear message _first_ that you will die if you rob, kill, rape, etc _then_ phase out welfare it'd be safer.


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## lojasmo (Jul 7, 2007)

The Monkey Man said:


> You people are looking past the issue...
> 
> Those punks wouldn't exist if there were no welfare, or welfare recipients were required to be sterilized to collect their $$
> 
> ...



Your theory is utter crap, and you obviously have no concept of the meaning of the US constitution.

Read a book or something.



			
				US constitution said:
			
		

> We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.



Whereas: There is no reference in the article to the attackers being on welfare.

And whereas: You have not proven your assertion that welfare causes crime.

And whereas: You have failed to prove that the eradication of welfare will reduce crime.

And whereas:  You have failed to understand the concept of "general welfare"

Be it resolved that this poster believes you are full of crap.

On topic:  These guys should go to jail for a long time.


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## bio-chem (Jul 7, 2007)

lojasmo said:


> Your theory is utter crap, and you obviously have no concept of the meaning of the US constitution.
> 
> Read a book or something.
> 
> ...



chill dude. monkey man is a regular here and is just letting off steam. he doesnt really believe the stuff he is spouting, he is just complaining that the system has some flaws.  sometimes its important to spend some time on a forum getting to know the characters before jumping on them.  under 20 posts is not the time to be spouting about the constitution


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## Steele20 (Jul 7, 2007)

KelJu said:


> Our system evolved from a do or die attitude to an attitude of enabling loser and rejects.
> 
> If you violently rape someone, you should die.
> If you kill someone you should die.
> ...


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## danzik17 (Jul 7, 2007)

Just need to kick them into the grand canyon while screaming "THIS IS AMERICA".

Hey, it worked in the movies.


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## P-funk (Jul 7, 2007)

fuck it.  kill them.


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## Triple Threat (Jul 7, 2007)

Just send them to Canada to party with Dontstop and her friends.


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## Little Wing (Jul 7, 2007)

i can't even imagine the psychological and emotional damage to the bond between the mom and her son. i agree 100% that the people who did this should die. most of our society would probably agree so why won't it happen? _that's_ the friggin problem with our legal system.


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## P-funk (Jul 7, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> i can't even imagine the psychological and emotional damage to the bond between the mom and her son. i agree 100% that the people who did this should die. most of our society would probably agree so why won't it happen? _that's_ the friggin problem with our legal system.



because CLEARLY these people have mental problems.  they don't need to die...they are people too!  put them in an institution and let them get help.  they deserve it!  set up programs for these people with tax payers dollars....lol...democrats.

fuck it...give them the sword.


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## KelJu (Jul 7, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> i can't even imagine the psychological and emotional damage to the bond between the mom and her son. i agree 100% that the people who did this should die. most of our society would probably agree so why won't it happen? _that's_ the friggin problem with our legal system.



My heart shatters for that mother and little boy.


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## Little Wing (Jul 7, 2007)

plain and simple criminals don't have much to fear from the legal system. death by decapitation or firing squad would make people think twice. criminals keep committing sicker and sicker crimes. maybe society should match their depravity with a bit of like minded thinking. how cool would it have been if this story ended in the perpetrators having their heads bashed in by a group of neighborhood watchmen armed with maces? the general public would love it.


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## Rubes (Jul 7, 2007)

as long as i can do some of the bashing


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## Little Wing (Jul 7, 2007)

Rubes said:


> as long as i can do some of the bashing




some people only understand one language


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## Rubes (Jul 7, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> some people only understand one language



my bad.


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## Hialeahchico (Jul 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted by *triple threat*
> Just send them to Canada to party with Dontstop and her friends.



  nobody desereves that.


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## The Monkey Man (Jul 7, 2007)

lojasmo said:


> Your theory is utter crap, and you obviously have no concept of the meaning of the US constitution.
> 
> Read a book or something.
> 
> ...



Go back to law school you bleeding heart...

Youre going to piss and moan about everyones feelings, till some Meth-hed
kills someone you might even care about...


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## The Monkey Man (Jul 7, 2007)

danzik17 said:


> Just need to kick them into the grand canyon while screaming "THIS IS AMERICA".
> 
> Hey, it worked in the movies.



I don't want those losers in my beloved Canyon -


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## AKIRA (Jul 7, 2007)

How did the 12 year old get a hard on to fuck his mom?


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## KelJu (Jul 7, 2007)

AKIRA said:


> How did the 12 year old get a hard on to fuck his mom?



I doubt he did. I am pretty sure they just made him go through the motions. This story sickens me. Rarely do I ever fill sick from a story, but this story really gets to me. That boy has to go to school and face his peers. That woman is going to be a psychological wreck.


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## The Monkey Man (Jul 7, 2007)

KelJu said:


> I doubt he did. I am pretty sure they just made him go through the motions. This story sickens me



Do you feel physically ill?


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## Little Wing (Jul 7, 2007)

Rubes said:


> my bad.



i meant the bad guys.


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## Plateau_Max (Jul 7, 2007)

I don't think these people need to be killed.  For one we are not to decide who lives or dies, period.  Another thing is, killing them will not undo what they've done.

I think what needs to happen is we need to have all prisons require hard labor from every single inmate.  If we can get more prisons to produce commodities via laboring inmates, the cost of holding someone is at least somewhat balanced out by whatever is getting produced/sold/etc.  Also they need to be counciled daily to be psychologically helped with their violent and criminal ways.  There are experiments so simple as proper diet that have had amazing results in lowering violence levels in criminal populations.

Welfare might not necessarily breed crime but it sure as hell breeds laziness.  If you don't give someone the option of sitting around collecting on the government without lifting a finger, that's one less avenue for laziness.  Some without welfare will turn to crime for money but that's a whole other problem.


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## Rubes (Jul 7, 2007)

how about we find a way to turn them all into 7 year olds again and make them spend the night with micheal jackson and his jesus juice


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## BoneCrusher (Jul 8, 2007)

Just kill them.  All jokes aside, we need a fastlane to execution in these kinds of cases.  Caught red handed? No way they can be anything but guilty  Dead inside of a month.


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## KelJu (Jul 8, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> I don't think these people need to be killed.  For one we are not to decide who lives or dies, period.  Another thing is, killing them will not undo what they've done.
> 
> I think what needs to happen is we need to have all prisons require hard labor from every single inmate.  If we can get more prisons to produce commodities via laboring inmates, the cost of holding someone is at least somewhat balanced out by whatever is getting produced/sold/etc.  Also they need to be counciled daily to be psychologically helped with their violent and criminal ways.  There are experiments so simple as proper diet that have had amazing results in lowering violence levels in criminal populations.
> 
> Welfare might not necessarily breed crime but it sure as hell breeds laziness.  If you don't give someone the option of sitting around collecting on the government without lifting a finger, that's one less avenue for laziness.  Some without welfare will turn to crime for money but that's a whole other problem.




Lets hear you say that after someone rapes your mother while making you take part by gunpoint.


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## BoneCrusher (Jul 8, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> *I don't think these people need to be killed.  For one we are not to decide who lives or dies, period.*  Another thing is, killing them will not undo what they've done.



Sure we are.  If not us, then who else?  It is not only up to us, it's our responsibility.  When we fail that responsibility more innocent people get murdered.

As brother K says, put yourself in the victim's role ...


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## AKIRA (Jul 8, 2007)

Its quite easy to understand how death is just fine in this scenario.


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## Witmaster (Jul 8, 2007)

DontStop said:


> "go midevil on thier ass"
> -- Mr. Wallace.


Oh no shit.....



> "What now? Let me tell you what now. I'ma call a coupla hard, pipe-hittin' niggers, who'll go to work on the homes here with a pair of pliers and a blow torch. You hear me talkin', hillbilly boy? I ain't through with you by a damn sight. I'ma get medieval on your ass"



Marsellus Wallace was inspirational


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## Plateau_Max (Jul 8, 2007)

If I was put in that situation and you asked me to judge, then I would be emotional, agry and very irrational.  Is that how you like to make all your decisions?

I'm not saying I don't care about what happened, but there are less barbaric and more economic ways to approach the situation.

ALSO, it's more punishment to make someone do hard labor for the rest of their life.  Personally I would rather just die than spend the next 70 years working my guts out 16 hours a day with no pay and horrible living conditions.


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## kcoleman (Jul 8, 2007)

With hellish crimes like this occurring, and the power of the media to broadcast it, who knows when the general population would accept a government with the power to routinely execute people, bypassing the bureaucratic measures that slow down capital punishment. Maybe one day one of you will end up on the green mile an innocent person. Will you then regret your cries for bloodshed and vengeance? I think so.

My thinking is that even imprisonment is a necessary evil. Some people are a threat to society and have to be put away, fine. But how could anybody argue for capital punishment? The whole process of execution costs you more tax dollars than life imprisonment. Flaw in the system? "Just do away with them quick and easy"? That's leaning dangerously close to fascism. Totally unacceptable.

Look at all of you, demanding torture and execution. You're crazy! Think for a second will you?


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## Little Wing (Jul 8, 2007)

kcoleman said:


> who knows when the general population would accept a government with the power to routinely execute people



we accept a criminal element that "routinely execute(s)" people now. we accept it by allowing murderers to live. we live in a country where our children are "routinely" kidnapped, raped, murdered, where it is "normal" to hear about people committing heinous crimes. it shouldn't cost so much to exterminate people who cannot or will not conduct themselves in a civilized manner. if you are a threat to society and the safety of other citizens you should die. millions of jobs should not be taken from the rest of us to keep you alive. if you are seen punching an elderly woman in the face and taking her purse, caught on camera no less, bang you're dead for the price of a bullet and good riddance. over population is a problem, the world would be better off without needing to feed, house, provide the energy for and dispose of the waste produced by human vermin.


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## KelJu (Jul 8, 2007)

kcoleman said:


> With hellish crimes like this occurring, and the power of the media to broadcast it, who knows when the general population would accept a government with the power to routinely execute people, bypassing the bureaucratic measures that slow down capital punishment. Maybe one day one of you will end up on the green mile an innocent person. Will you then regret your cries for bloodshed and vengeance? I think so.
> 
> My thinking is that even imprisonment is a necessary evil. Some people are a threat to society and have to be put away, fine. But how could anybody argue for capital punishment? The whole process of execution costs you more tax dollars than life imprisonment. Flaw in the system? "Just do away with them quick and easy"? That's leaning dangerously close to fascism. Totally unacceptable.
> 
> Look at all of you, demanding torture and execution. You're crazy! Think for a second will you?




Again, I ask you. What if it was your little bother and mother? What if the person in your life that you love the most was savagely raped, brutalized, tortured, and psychologically destroyed for the rest of their life? What if they were murdered for no other reason than the satisfaction of some sick sadistic person?

I'm not attacking you, only your ideas. With that being said, I don't think you have thought this through. Maybe you could just live with the fact that innocent families are being destroyed, but I can't. Maybe I am a vengeful person, but I am also a loving person. 

Maybe you are emotionally detached. I don't know. I can't understand how you can just say stick them in prison and let them live a long life leaching off of an already over burdened system that doesn't give a shit about the victims. 


I can tell you right now that if someone brutalized someone I love, I would be filled with so much rage that I would probably kill them. If I did do that, I say execute me. But, I'll get justice before I am taken, and I will die with a satisfaction.  


Also, enough of this humane bullshit. Have a trail, try to be as fair as possible as to not convict someone who is innocent. But once someone is found guilty, just carry them out back after the trial and shot them in the fucking head.


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## Little Wing (Jul 8, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> If I was put in that situation and you asked me to judge, then I would be emotional, agry and very irrational.  Is that how you like to make all your decisions?
> 
> I'm not saying I don't care about what happened, but there are less barbaric and more economic ways to approach the situation.
> 
> ALSO, it's more punishment to make someone do hard labor for the rest of their life.  Personally I would rather just die than spend the next 70 years working my guts out 16 hours a day with no pay and horrible living conditions.



it is not irrational to want to kill someone that harms you or your loved ones. it is absolutely rational, normal, and a necessary emotion. if we had no instinctive desire to fight for the safety and protection of ourselves and our family we wouldn't have survived this long. wanting to rid the planet of human parasites that prey on our families is completely rational.


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## juggernaut (Jul 8, 2007)

The Monkey Man said:


> Ummmm...
> 
> You are missing the point that we wont need as many expensive prisons, or systems, or trial and court costs, or police funding...  If the criminal element gradually just disappears.
> 
> ...


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## juggernaut (Jul 8, 2007)

I say we kill them with battery acid to the nuts-but first we need to open some cuts in those nuts.


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## Hialeahchico (Jul 8, 2007)

> Originally Posted by *juggernaut*
> I say we kill them with battery acid to the nuts-but first we need to open some cuts in those nuts.



just thinkin about that gives me goosebumps.......you have been watchin "saw 3 " before you posted that havent you?


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## juggernaut (Jul 8, 2007)

Hialeahchico said:


> just thinkin about that gives me goosebumps.......you have been watchin "saw 3 " before you posted that havent you?


No. I'm a high school special ed teacher. Love those movies though.


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## KelJu (Jul 8, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> it is not irrational to want to kill someone that harms you or your loved ones. it is absolutely rational, normal, and a necessary emotion. if we had no instinctive desire to fight for the safety and protection of ourselves and our family we wouldn't have survived this long. wanting to rid the planet of human parasites that prey on our families is completely rational.



My thoughts exactly.]


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## juggernaut (Jul 8, 2007)




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## Plateau_Max (Jul 8, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> it is not irrational to want to kill someone that harms you or your loved ones. it is absolutely rational, normal, and a necessary emotion. if we had no instinctive desire to fight for the safety and protection of ourselves and our family we wouldn't have survived this long. wanting to rid the planet of human parasites that prey on our families is completely rational.



No.  If you've been through something like that you're not going to be thinking rationally.  It's understandable to scream lynch mob when something like that happens to you which is exactly why it's NOT YOU that needs to be making the call.

Again.  It's not up to us to decide who lives or dies.  The question "if not us then who?" is rediculous.  NOBODY is to decide.  If we allowed capital punishment then who are we going to appoint as our all knowing source of deciding what crimes make the cut?  Some people are going to be more extreme and want to hang purse snatchers, others might see some crimes as necessity and give the person another chance.... this isn't something you can put in the hands of people, period.

Lastly.  If some guy brutally raped an murdered a member of my family, and damn near murdered me... I would take great satisfaction in knowing he'd spend the rest of his life NEVER being allowed the opportunity to walk amongst us, eat a gourmet meal, make love to a beautiful woman, etc, and also knowing he'd be working his ever loving guts out every hour of every day without getting paid.

Sit in a chair and die painlessly?  No, work your ass off for the next 70 years without getting paid and living in a cramped cell making shit sold to me for dirt cheap... that's more like it.


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## BoneCrusher (Jul 8, 2007)

kcoleman said:


> With hellish crimes like this occurring, and the power of the media to broadcast it, who knows when the general population would accept a government with the power to routinely execute people, bypassing the bureaucratic measures that slow down capital punishment. Maybe one day one of you will end up on the green mile an innocent person. Will you then regret your cries for bloodshed and vengeance? I think so.
> 
> My thinking is that even imprisonment is a necessary evil. Some people are a threat to society and have to be put away, fine. But how could anybody argue for capital punishment? The whole process of execution costs you more tax dollars than life imprisonment. Flaw in the system? "Just do away with them quick and easy"? That's leaning dangerously close to fascism. Totally unacceptable.
> 
> Look at all of you, demanding torture and execution. You're crazy! Think for a second will you?


I'm in agreement with you on our system's inability to sort out who done it and who didn't.  Even when we do know, we still seem to find a way to screw it up somehow.  But we do have cases where we do know who done it.  Cases like this.  So, at this point we come to a matter of social consciencious.  Your major objection is based on your morality and perspectives.  That's to be expected and I don't question your right to have your feet planted firmly on a higher moral ground.  Buuuuut that is what it is really, your personal perspective.  Mine and yours are not the same.  I'm not crazy, I'm just not wired up the same as you.  I want to see the killers and rapists of the world executed.  That is justice IMHO. Anything less is a failure of our system to the victims AND the society this system is supposed to protect.

If I were that person you speak of, a person who somehow stepped into the twilight-zone, I would want some kind of help.  I would still feel the same as I do now though.  I disagree with the death penalty as it is now being exercised.  We have murdered innocent people; however, I do believe in the death penalty in those cases where guilt is beyond question.  It's an intrinsic part of justice.  The victims need closure, society needs a consequence with finality, and the innocent need the protections that the finality of death provide.  We have too many cases where the convicted murderer completed the sentence, was released, then went on to kill multiple times.

If there was just a way to short cut this entire process and get right to the execution phase in those instances when we know with absolute certainty we have the right guy ...


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 8, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> No.  If you've been through something like that you're not going to be thinking rationally.  It's understandable to scream lynch mob when something like that happens to you which is exactly why it's NOT YOU that needs to be making the call.
> 
> Again.  It's not up to us to decide who lives or dies.  The question "if not us then who?" is rediculous.  NOBODY is to decide.  If we allowed capital punishment then who are we going to appoint as our all knowing source of deciding what crimes make the cut?  Some people are going to be more extreme and want to hang purse snatchers, others might see some crimes as necessity and give the person another chance.... this isn't something you can put in the hands of people, period.
> 
> ...


YouTube - The Punisher - Warzone


----------



## Little Wing (Jul 8, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> No.  If you've been through something like that you're not going to be thinking rationally.  It's understandable to scream lynch mob when something like that happens to you which is exactly why it's NOT YOU that needs to be making the call.
> 
> Again.  It's not up to us to decide who lives or dies.  The question "if not us then who?" is rediculous.  NOBODY is to decide.  If we allowed capital punishment then who are we going to appoint as our all knowing source of deciding what crimes make the cut?  Some people are going to be more extreme and want to hang purse snatchers, others might see some crimes as necessity and give the person another chance.... this isn't something you can put in the hands of people, period.
> 
> ...



i _haven't_ been through anything like that and i _am_ thinking rationally. violent criminals are a burden on society and _always_ will be. prisons are nothing but a futile exercise in shoveling money into a bottomless hole. the _only _way to stop crime in this country from continuing to gather momentum is to scare the fuck out of would be criminals and exterminate people who are worthless to society. a warm place to sleep and 3 meals a day, even doing hard labor, obviously is not enough of a deterrent. it's time to stop fucking around but noooooo all we do is throw scum like that in prison and secretly, or not so secretly, hope the other prisoners will kill them.


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 9, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> i _haven't_ been through anything like that and i _am_ thinking rationally. violent criminals are a burden on society and _always_ will be. prisons are nothing but a futile exercise in shoveling money into a bottomless hole. the _only _way to stop crime in this country from continuing to gather momentum is to scare the fuck out of would be criminals and exterminate people who are worthless to society. a warm place to sleep and 3 meals a day, even doing hard labor, obviously is not enough of a deterrent. it's time to stop fucking around but noooooo all we do is throw scum like that in prison and secretly, or not so secretly, hope the other prisoners will kill them.


----------



## Witmaster (Jul 9, 2007)

kcoleman said:


> With hellish crimes like this occurring, and the power of the media to broadcast it, who knows when the general population would accept a government with the power to routinely execute people, bypassing the bureaucratic measures that slow down capital punishment. Maybe one day one of you will end up on the green mile an innocent person. Will you then regret your cries for bloodshed and vengeance? I think so.
> 
> My thinking is that even imprisonment is a necessary evil. Some people are a threat to society and have to be put away, fine. But how could anybody argue for capital punishment? The whole process of execution costs you more tax dollars than life imprisonment. Flaw in the system? "Just do away with them quick and easy"? That's leaning dangerously close to fascism. Totally unacceptable.
> 
> Look at all of you, demanding torture and execution. You're crazy! Think for a second will you?


You'll make a fine card-carrying member of the ACLU (American Criminal Lovers Union) one day.... if you're not already.  



People say what they FEEL.  Not necessarily what they believe.  Stop waving that self-righteous duddly-do-right bullshit and get emotional like the rest of us!


----------



## Witmaster (Jul 9, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> * Again.  It's not up to us to decide who lives or dies.* .... this isn't something you can put in the hands of people, period.


Oh like hell.....

Prisons are so over-crowded now it's crazy to think extending sentences and labor-loads would do any real good.  Just look how well this rationale is working today!?!

Ironically, the same people (like yourself) who demand we put an end to capital punishment are the same people lobbying for prisoner's rights for better accommodations and "rehabilitation programs".

I say a 5-cent bullet to the back of the head cuts straight to the point and is a helluva lot cheaper.


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 9, 2007)

personally, if I was able to make a change in the way society does things, I'd let the family decide the fate.


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## Witmaster (Jul 9, 2007)

juggernaut said:


> personally, if I was able to make a change in the way society does things, I'd let the family decide the fate.


Interesting that you should bring this up....

When I was deployed to southern Bosnia/[SIZE=-1]Herzegovina I witnessed an execution of a rapist.

The man had raped a 14 year-old Muslim girl.  He was tried and convicted by a group of town elders.  He was then chained (publicly) to a wall and AK-47s with full mags were handed to the Father and two brothers of the victim.

Needless to say, they don't have a lot of rapes occurring in that little town anymore.
[/SIZE]


----------



## Triple Threat (Jul 9, 2007)

Witmaster said:


> When I was deployed to southern Bosnia/[SIZE=-1]Herzegovina I witnessed an execution of a rapist.
> 
> The man had raped a 14 year-old Muslim girl.  He was tried and convicted by a group of town elders.  He was then chained (publicly) to a wall and AK-47s with full mags were handed to the Father and two brothers of the victim.
> [/SIZE]



Were the family members given the option of using the guns or not?


----------



## kcoleman (Jul 9, 2007)

Witmaster said:


> You'll make a fine card-carrying member of the ACLU (American Criminal Lovers Union) one day.... if you're not already.
> 
> 
> 
> People say what they FEEL.  Not necessarily what they believe.  Stop waving that self-righteous duddly-do-right bullshit and get emotional like the rest of us!



I read the article. It upset me quite a lot, it's probably the most disgusting crime like that I've heard about. But all the comments you people made are disturbing in their own right. Something tells me some of you would feel more comfortable in Nazi Germany than a free democratic society.


----------



## kcoleman (Jul 9, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> we accept a criminal element that "routinely execute(s)" people now. we accept it by allowing murderers to live. we live in a country where our children are "routinely" kidnapped, raped, murdered, where it is "normal" to hear about people committing heinous crimes. it shouldn't cost so much to exterminate people who cannot or will not conduct themselves in a civilized manner. if you are a threat to society and the safety of other citizens you should die. millions of jobs should not be taken from the rest of us to keep you alive. if you are seen punching an elderly woman in the face and taking her purse, caught on camera no less, bang you're dead for the price of a bullet and good riddance. over population is a problem, the world would be better off without needing to feed, house, provide the energy for and dispose of the waste produced by human vermin.



Uhhh, you quoted and replied to half a sentence. The sentence clearly means something different when you take what I put after the comma into consideration. You'd make a fine propagandist =)


----------



## DOMS (Jul 9, 2007)

kcoleman said:


> I read the article. It upset me quite a lot, it's probably the most disgusting crime like that I've heard about. But all the comments you people made are disturbing in their own right. Something tells me some of you would feel more comfortable in Nazi Germany than a free democratic society.



It's because of ass-hats like you that criminals in the US have practically no fear of the legal system.

I'm willing to bet that the execution of Tookie Williams bothered you.


----------



## MGorgon (Jul 9, 2007)

And how many innocent HUMAN BEINGS are "legally" sentenced to die every single day in this world?  The government decides this, and they represent us.  Not everybody is in favor of the death penalty, so in effect, the government is executing innocent human beings in YOUR NAME, if you agree with it or not.  If even ONE innocent person dies "legally", that makes all of us accountable, does it not?

Or is innocent life worth it in the fight against crime?  Look at the crime rates, they are HIGHER in states with capital punishment.  Have some human dignity and put the criminals behind bars, where they won't get the easy way out.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> And how many innocent HUMAN BEINGS are "legally" sentenced to die every single day in this world?  The government decides this, and they represent us.  Not everybody is in favor of the death penalty, so in effect, the government is executing innocent human beings in YOUR NAME, if you agree with it or not.  If even ONE innocent person dies "legally", that makes all of us accountable, does it not?
> 
> Or is innocent life worth it in the fight against crime?  Look at the crime rates, they are HIGHER in states with capital punishment.  Have some human dignity and put the criminals behind bars, where they won't get the easy way out.



You're right, the legal system isn't perfect.  Let's get rid of it.

I'm glad you cleared that up.


----------



## MGorgon (Jul 9, 2007)

DOMS said:


> It's because of ass-hats like you that criminals in the US have practically no fear of the legal system.
> 
> I'm willing to bet that the execution of Tookie Williams bothered you.



While cases like his are an open-shut guilty verdict, it's the principle that counts.  99% of other crimes are NOT open-shut.  We can't just base the law on 1% of the crimes, can we?

Keep your blood-lusting attitudes out of Canada please, I'm glad we don't have the death penalty any more.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> While cases like his are an open-shut guilty verdict, it's the principle that counts.  99% of other crimes are NOT open-shut.  We can't just base the law on 1% of the crimes, can we?
> 
> Keep your blood-lusting attitudes out of Canada please, I'm glad we don't have the death penalty any more.



But you have life-sentences, don't you?  Oh, it's s-o-o-o much better to let a an innocent man rot in jail for 80s years...

Since an innocent man could get sentenced to life, you'll need to get rid of that too.


----------



## kcoleman (Jul 9, 2007)

Michael Moore makes a really good point in his documentary, "Bowling for Columbine". Crime rates across the US have been declining, yet media coverage of crime has gone up something like 600%. You people live in such fear. No wonder you express such zealotry =/

I'm not standing on a moral high ground here. The fact is that in a criminal justice system, innumerable lines have to be drawn. Severity of crimes and sentences imposed. Doesn't your system take upwards of like 20 years to execute somebody? And even then, innocent people are executed in your system. You really want to speed things up and see more innocent people dead?

I know, some of you are arguing for the death penalty only in cases where guilt is unequivocal and the crime is beyond heinous, but what you're doing is letting your emotions dictate WHERE the lines are drawn. Abolish the death penalty, lock up murderers for life, that should be enough to satisfy your peace of mind.


----------



## kcoleman (Jul 9, 2007)

DOMS said:


> But you have life-sentences, don't you?  Oh, it's s-o-o-o much better to let a an innocent man rot in jail for 80s years...
> 
> Since an innocent man could get sentenced to life, you'll need to get rid of that too.



At least with life imprisonment there is the possibility for new evidence to come into light that could reverse the verdict.


----------



## KelJu (Jul 9, 2007)

kcoleman said:


> I read the article. It upset me quite a lot, it's probably the most disgusting crime like that I've heard about. But all the comments you people made are disturbing in their own right. Something tells me some of you would feel more comfortable in Nazi Germany than a free democratic society.




I think we are all good people on this site. I think you and I probably felt the same when we read that horrific story. Lets not turn this into a flame war, and I'll try to chill out and debate the argument rather than the person.


From what I gather, you think they should be removed for society, but not execute them. Am I right? If so, what should we do with them? It is not fair to the American people to spend tax money on these monsters. It is not fair to the victims to give these monsters 3 meals a day and a warm place to sleep. It is a slap to the face. Can you feel me on this? 

I feel they deserve to die a cheap death...maybe a gunshot through the heart and the temple. They will die instantly. They will not feel a fraction of the pain they gave to their victims. That is as human as it gets. Cheap, quick, and painless. 


You never answered my question. Close your eyes, and try to imagaine your mother being brutally raped over and over by a gang of thugs. I don't knwo if you have a little bother, but try to visualize them making him take part via gunpoint. Try to imagine when it is all over how that boy and mother will never be the same. They will be traumatized, and their lives might be destroyed forever. Imagine how they feel towards their country and government when they find out that these thugs fell no remorse and will be housed, clothed, and fed on their own tax money. 

I have a stellar imagination. I don't even want to, but when I read that story, I could feel a some of what happened to them. Its sympathy. Do you sympathize with them? Can you feel any of their pain? 

I want you to just try it, and when your done, I want to know how you feel.


----------



## KelJu (Jul 9, 2007)

DOMS said:


> But you have life-sentences, don't you?  Oh, it's s-o-o-o much better to let a an innocent man rot in jail for 80s years...
> 
> Since an innocent man could get sentenced to life, you'll need to get rid of that too.



Fuck that, lets carry it farther. since we can *never* be sure of any verdict at all, why even have a justice system, since its not worth the risk to convict an innocent person. Lets just all run wild and rape, pillage, murder, and destroy.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 9, 2007)

kcoleman said:


> Michael Moore makes a really good point in his documentary, "Bowling for Columbine". Crime rates across the US have been declining, yet media coverage of crime has gone up something like 600%. You people live in such fear. No wonder you express such zealotry =/



I'm not "living in fear".  _*You're*_ the one who's giving into the media's lies.  I spent the last 5 days in L.A.  None of the people that I talked to were really worried about crime.   Well, other than the affect that the Mexicans are having on it.



kcoleman said:


> I'm not standing on a moral high ground here. The fact is that in a criminal justice system, innumerable lines have to be drawn. Severity of crimes and sentences imposed. Doesn't your system take upwards of like 20 years to execute somebody? And even then, innocent people are executed in your system. You really want to speed things up and see more innocent people dead?



The death penalty holds little fear in this nation for it's very sluggishness.  

Again, you're ignoring the fact that an innocent man can get sentenced to life.  That's up to 80 years of confinement.  But it's not death, so it's okay then?  



kcoleman said:


> I know, some of you are arguing for the death penalty only in cases where guilt is unequivocal and the crime is beyond heinous, but what you're doing is letting your emotions dictate WHERE the lines are drawn. Abolish the death penalty, lock up murderers for life, that should be enough to satisfy your peace of mind.



So, where should we draw the line?  How about we just set the limit of time in a jail for any crime to 5 years?  That way, even if an innocent man is found guilty, he'll only lose 5 years.

R-i-i-i-ght...


----------



## DOMS (Jul 9, 2007)

KelJu said:


> Fuck that, lets carry it farther. since we can *never* be sure of any verdict at all, why even have a justice system, since its not worth the risk to convict an innocent person. Lets just all run wild and rape, pillage, murder, and destroy.



I knew you'd find the solution, KelJu.  My recommendation of 5 years was just too tough.


----------



## MGorgon (Jul 9, 2007)

KelJu said:


> I think we are all good people on this site. I think you and I probably felt the same when we read that horrific story. Lets not turn this into a flame war, and I'll try to chill out and debate the argument rather than the person.
> 
> 
> From what I gather, you think they should be removed for society, but not execute them. Am I right? If so, what should we do with them? It is not fair to the American people to spend tax money on these monsters. It is not fair to the victims to give these monsters 3 meals a day and a warm place to sleep. It is a slap to the face. Can you feel me on this?
> ...



That is EXACTLY why the victims should not be the ones dispensing justice.  Put yourself in the shoes of the man on death row for a second, you're totally, completely innocent.  You knew none of the people involved, weren't anywhere near the scene, yet somehow they've got you locked into a guilty verdict.  This isn't a crazy scenario, it happens very often, probably far more often then we will ever know.

How would YOU feel?  Or are you willing to sacrifice yourself for this self-righteous cause of blood lust.


----------



## kcoleman (Jul 9, 2007)

KelJu said:


> I think we are all good people on this site. I think you and I probably felt the same when we read that horrific story. Lets not turn this into a flame war, and I'll try to chill out and debate the argument rather than the person.
> 
> 
> From what I gather, you think they should be removed for society, but not execute them. Am I right? If so, what should we do with them? It is not fair to the American people to spend tax money on these monsters. It is not fair to the victims to give these monsters 3 meals a day and a warm place to sleep. It is a slap to the face. Can you feel me on this?
> ...



Believe me when I say I felt the exact same as you when I read that article. I took a few moments after reading it imagining myself in that type of situation. I have a pretty vivid imagination also. But I still stand by my convictions. That's what being a free thinker is all about.


----------



## Little Wing (Jul 9, 2007)

kcoleman said:


> Michael Moore makes a really good point in his documentary, "Bowling for Columbine". Crime rates across the US have been declining, yet media coverage of crime has gone up something like 600%. You people live in such fear. No wonder you express such zealotry =/
> 
> I'm not standing on a moral high ground here. The fact is that in a criminal justice system, innumerable lines have to be drawn. Severity of crimes and sentences imposed. Doesn't your system take upwards of like 20 years to execute somebody? And even then, innocent people are executed in your system. You really want to speed things up and see more innocent people dead?
> 
> I know, some of you are arguing for the death penalty only in cases where guilt is unequivocal and the crime is beyond heinous, but what you're doing is letting your emotions dictate WHERE the lines are drawn. Abolish the death penalty, lock up murderers for life, that should be enough to satisfy your peace of mind.



how about we lock our unreformable prisoners up in canada and you bleeding hearts can nurture them and baby them at _your_ expense the rest of their lives? even if an occasional innocent person was wrongly convicted getting tough on crime would keep many more innocent people alive. those would be the _victims_ but we aren't supposed to be considering them here right?


----------



## kcoleman (Jul 9, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> how about we lock our unreformable prisoners up in canada and you bleeding hearts can nurture them and baby them at _your_ expense the rest of their lives? even if an occasional innocent person was wrongly convicted getting tough on crime would keep many more innocent people alive. those would be the _victims_ but we aren't supposed to be considering them here right?



Please, think about where you would be today if it were not for the "bleeding hearts". Maybe you wouldn't have to be bothered to see black people sitting at the front of the bus.

It's better that 1000 guilty men go free than one innocent man be imprisoned.


----------



## Little Wing (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> That is EXACTLY why the victims should not be the ones dispensing justice.  Put yourself in the shoes of the man on death row for a second, you're totally, completely innocent.  You knew none of the people involved, weren't anywhere near the scene, yet somehow they've got you locked into a guilty verdict.  This isn't a crazy scenario, it happens very often, probably far more often then we will ever know.
> 
> How would YOU feel?  Or are you willing to sacrifice yourself for this self-righteous cause of blood lust.




_everyone_ in prison is innocent. and i have some ocean front property in nevada i can sell you....


----------



## Little Wing (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> While cases like his are an open-shut guilty verdict, it's the principle that counts.  99% of other crimes are NOT open-shut.  We can't just base the law on 1% of the crimes, can we?
> 
> Keep your blood-lusting attitudes out of Canada please, I'm glad we don't have the death penalty any more.



how about we just send our blood-lusting killers there and you can deal with them with kid gloves.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 9, 2007)

kcoleman said:


> It's better that 1000 guilty men go free than one innocent man be imprisoned.



Bullshit.  You say that now, but I'd like to hear what you'd say after a man charged with rape was set loose and he found your wife.


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## Crono1000 (Jul 9, 2007)

how come shit like this always happens in Florida?


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## kcoleman (Jul 9, 2007)

DOMS said:


> Bullshit.  You say that now, but I'd like to hear what you'd say after a man charged with rape was set loose and he found your wife.



I'd want to find him and kill him. I wouldn't, however, want my government to have that power. Besides which, I will never marry.


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## Jodi (Jul 9, 2007)

Let's just dump our prisoners in Canada and then they can deal with them the way they see fit!


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## Little Wing (Jul 9, 2007)

kcoleman said:


> It's better that 1000 guilty men go free than one innocent man be imprisoned.



that is _so_ ridiculous. you obviously are reacting emotionally and crying into your snot rag for the poor innocent _one_ imprisoned. in doing so you are not being reasonable and considering the toll the 1000 guilty men will have on far more innocent people that the _one_ you are crying over. so essentially it's better, according to you, to set loose 1000 murderers, rapists etc upon the masses? better to sacrifice many than one.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 9, 2007)

kcoleman said:


> I'd want to find him and kill him. I wouldn't, however, want my government to have that power. Besides which, I will never marry.



What if you killed the wrong guy?


----------



## Little Wing (Jul 9, 2007)

kcoleman said:


> I'd want to find him and kill him. I wouldn't, however, want my government to have that power. Besides which, I will never marry.



3 women here knocked my son out and locked him screaming in terror in the dark because he was cold and wouldn't take his coat off. i was emotional about it yes but i didn't do _any_ of the things i felt like doing. i trusted my government to punish them. then i found out because the women were teachers nothing was going to be done about it. despite the fact that the chief of police here pushed for action and told me we are far from the first family here to have a child abused in that school. despite the fact that my sons pediatrician documented numerous injuries from the attack and stated someone pushed on Tyler's chest hard enough to bruise his spine on the floor. i got a lawyer and the school was forced to pay for him to be tutored at home because he developed post traumatic stress and school phobia after the incident, but _nothing_ happened to 3 women that sent a 60 pound 8 yr old boy home in clinical shock. the criminals have more power than the victims do and it is wrong. and people like you are the ones that spoon feed the criminals their power and stand in the way of justice.


----------



## MGorgon (Jul 9, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> 3 women here knocked my son out and locked him screaming in terror in the dark because he was cold and wouldn't take his coat off. i was emotional about it yes but i didn't do _any_ of the things i felt like doing. i trusted my government to punish them. then i found out because the women were teachers nothing was going to be done about it. despite the fact that the chief of police here pushed for action and told me we are far from the first family here to have a child abused in that school. despite the fact that my sons pediatrician documented numerous injuries from the attack and stated someone pushed on Tyler's chest hard enough to bruise his spine on the floor. i got a lawyer and the school was forced to pay for him to be tutored at home because he developed post traumatic stress and school phobia after the incident, but _nothing_ happened to 3 women that sent a 60 pound 8 yr old boy home in clinical shock. the criminals have more power than the victims do and it is wrong. and people like you are the ones that spoon feed the criminals their power and stand in the way of justice.



No system is flawless, that is a sad fact.  People like those 3 scumbags should be locked up forever.  I really think you're underestimating prison here.  It's not like you have freedom or anything.  Imagine yourself being put in prison, I know that I would rather die then go to there, no matter how luxurious it is, or is reported to be.  I don't want to be locked into a tiny cell for 23 hours a day, then be tossed into a grassy yard for an hour, told to "have fun" while being watched by men with guns daring me to escape.

But let's talk about you wanting to execute criminals for those minor crimes too.  Ever downloaded a song illegally?  Did you take a classmate's crayon in grade school without asking?  What if your daughter downloaded a song, or stole a chocolate bar from the local 711?  Those are all very petty things that next to nobody cares about (except the RIAA), you're telling me, that if your children stole a piece of sugar, that you justify having them MURDERED BY THE GOVERNMENT???

Please, PLEASE stay the **** out of office, the people in there are sick and twisted enough as it is.


----------



## KelJu (Jul 9, 2007)

kcoleman said:


> Please, think about where you would be today if it were not for the "bleeding hearts". Maybe you wouldn't have to be bothered to see black people sitting at the front of the bus.
> 
> It's better that 1000 guilty men go free than one innocent man be imprisoned.




If were not for the strong, get shit done, kind of people we would be speaking German right now hailing Hitler. All Black people would be dead, and we would be living as the Nazi Empire. 

Either we deal with this shit, or our society rots. 

Also, comparing disenfranchised Blacks to criminals doesn't make much sense to me. Be fair to the American Black citizens. Kill the criminals. It is as simple as that.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> But let's talk about you wanting to execute criminals for those minor crimes too.  Ever downloaded a song illegally?  Did you take a classmate's crayon in grade school without asking?  What if your daughter downloaded a song, or stole a chocolate bar from the local 711?  Those are all very petty things that next to nobody cares about (except the RIAA), you're telling me, that if your children stole a piece of sugar, that you justify having them MURDERED BY THE GOVERNMENT???



You really need to look up the "straw man argument."  

Oh, and you should also look-up "sensationalist crap."


----------



## kcoleman (Jul 9, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> 3 women here knocked my son out and locked him screaming in terror in the dark because he was cold and wouldn't take his coat off. i was emotional about it yes but i didn't do _any_ of the things i felt like doing. i trusted my government to punish them. then i found out because the women were teachers nothing was going to be done about it. despite the fact that the chief of police here pushed for action and told me we are far from the first family here to have a child abused in that school. despite the fact that my sons pediatrician documented numerous injuries from the attack and stated someone pushed on Tyler's chest hard enough to bruise his spine on the floor. i got a lawyer and the school was forced to pay for him to be tutored at home because he developed post traumatic stress and school phobia after the incident, but _nothing_ happened to 3 women that sent a 60 pound 8 yr old boy home in clinical shock. the criminals have more power than the victims do and it is wrong. and people like you are the ones that spoon feed the criminals their power and stand in the way of justice.



Do you want those teachers to be executed? We're talking about the death penalty here. I'm all for due justice and I think it's disgusting those 3 teachers got away scott free.


----------



## Little Wing (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> No system is flawless, that is a sad fact.  People like those 3 scumbags should be locked up forever.  I really think you're underestimating prison here.  It's not like you have freedom or anything.  Imagine yourself being put in prison, I know that I would rather die then go to there, no matter how luxurious it is, or is reported to be.  I don't want to be locked into a tiny cell for 23 hours a day, then be tossed into a grassy yard for an hour, told to "have fun" while being watched by men with guns daring me to escape.
> 
> But let's talk about you wanting to execute criminals for those minor crimes too.  Ever downloaded a song illegally?  Did you take a classmate's crayon in grade school without asking?  What if your daughter downloaded a song, or stole a chocolate bar from the local 711?  Those are all very petty things that next to nobody cares about (except the RIAA), you're telling me, that if your children stole a piece of sugar, that you justify having them MURDERED BY THE GOVERNMENT???
> 
> ...



i never said anything about executing anyone for minor offenses. i think the women that did that to my son should be banned from working with children. i think under the circumstances, and given the fact that other children have reported similar treatment at their hands that is a reasonable and fair response. and no i'm not underestimating prison. if it's so bad why are people getting out and committing repeat offenses? they call it "life on the installment plan" men go in again and again and again cuz it's a fucking cakewalk. killers get out and kill again, rapists get out and rape again.

and you please stay the fuck out of a news room cuz your reporting skills suck.  


MGorgon said:


> "But let's talk about you wanting to execute criminals for those minor crimes too."


? where the fuck did you get that?  

you could write fiction i guess. or become a defense lawyer.


----------



## kcoleman (Jul 9, 2007)

> i think the women that did that to my son should be banned from working with children. i think under the circumstances, and given the fact that other children have reported similar treatment at their hands that is a reasonable and fair response.



agreed


----------



## MGorgon (Jul 9, 2007)

KelJu said:


> Kill the criminals. It is as simple as that.




Have you ever broken the law?  Of course you have, so try having some restraint with how you think other human beings should be treated after they go 2-3 miles over the speed limit on an empty highway, or jaywalk 1 foot outside the crosswalk.


----------



## MGorgon (Jul 9, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> I'm afraid abruptly ending welfare would cause a drastic increase in crime, crimes perpetrated by desperate people. If you send a clear message _first_ that you will die if you *rob*, kill, rape, etc _then_ phase out welfare it'd be safer.



Robbery has many subcategories, including petty shoplifting.


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## Little Wing (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> Robbery has many subcategories, including petty shoplifting.




this thread is about a woman being gang raped by a bunch of shitbags that made her son have sex with her. you are being utterly ridiculous in ignoring that i said 





Little Wing said:


> if you are a threat to society and the safety of other citizens you should die.


 a petty shoplifter obviously wouldn't qualify. read.


----------



## KelJu (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> Have you ever broken the law?  Of course you have, so try having some restraint with how you think other human beings should be treated after they go 2-3 miles over the speed limit on an empty highway, or jaywalk 1 foot outside the crosswalk.





Listen asshole, I'm trying to be fair about this. We are talking about violent rapist and murderers, not petty thieves and drug offenders. If you are too dumb to keep pace with the discussion, feel free to exit the thread and kill yourself.


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## Little Wing (Jul 9, 2007)

there would be some justice i suppose in criminals targeting people who are soft on crime


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## KelJu (Jul 9, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> there would be some justice i suppose in criminals targeting people who are soft on crime



Hahahahahahahahahaha! Wouldn't that open some people's eyes. Try being soft on crime after you have had your asshole destroyed by 3 thugs.


----------



## tucker01 (Jul 9, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> how about we just send our blood-lusting killers there and you can deal with them with kid gloves.



Please no.  We need the death penalty up here.


----------



## kcoleman (Jul 9, 2007)

This thread has taken a turn to the most non, non-heinous of levels. So party on dudes, and be excellent to each other.


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 9, 2007)

I said this statement months back and I believe that this will be the way I am till the day I die: If ANYONE fucks with my family. I'll kill them myself. Fuck the prison, fuck cops, fuck the judicial system and fuck anyone who tries to get in my way of dispensing the justice that they deserve. This might not be the PC way of doing things, but I dont give a fuck.


----------



## MGorgon (Jul 9, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> this thread is about a woman being gang raped by a bunch of shitbags that made her son have sex with her. you are being utterly ridiculous in ignoring that i said  a petty shoplifter obviously wouldn't qualify. read.



So there are NO exceptions?  What about 2 teenagers who get into a fight at school, and give each other black eyes?  They are by your definition a a threat to the safety of other citizens (each other), and they should be executed.  Sorry, I completely disagree, and my point stands, unless you want to change what you said earlier about thieves being put to death.


----------



## Little Wing (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> So there are NO exceptions?  What about 2 teenagers who get into a fight at school, and give each other black eyes?  They are by your definition a a threat to the safety of other citizens (each other), and they should be executed.  Sorry, I completely disagree, and my point stands, unless you want to change what you said earlier about thieves being put to death.




you're being ridiculous. may you live in interesting times.


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 9, 2007)

kcoleman said:


> Do you want those teachers to be executed? We're talking about the death penalty here. I'm all for due justice and I think it's disgusting those 3 teachers got away scott free.


how about we assrape your wife and let them get off with 2 years of prison. Sounds like an excellent idea to me.


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## MGorgon (Jul 9, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> you're being ridiculous. may you live in interesting times.



That isn't a ridiculous scenario, it happens countless times a day across the world.  Where does the line stop then?  If people causing violent, physical harm to others is not a crime by your book, what is?


----------



## KelJu (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> So there are NO exceptions?  What about 2 teenagers who get into a fight at school, and give each other black eyes?  They are by your definition a a threat to the safety of other citizens (each other), and they should be executed.  Sorry, I completely disagree, and my point stands, unless you want to change what you said earlier about thieves being put to death.



I never gave any definitions whatsoever. 

Ok, I'm going to put this in huge text. Then I am going to underline it. Then I am going to bold it. I want you to read it 10 times, then I want you to think about it, then I want you to read it again.

*We are talking about rapist and violent murderers. *


Everyone else in this thread is disagreeing about what to do with these people. Now you come in here talking about speeder. Are you 
dumb or something?  


Now I'll go on ahead and give the first KelJu definition of this thread. 

vio·lent mur·der·er 
???noun
a person who commits murder without provocation in an abnormally violent fashion. 


This is my definition, and anyone with common sense knows what I'm talking  about. So stop derailing the discussion with your arbitrary bullshit.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 9, 2007)

KelJu said:


> Everyone else in this thread is disagreeing about what to do with these people. Now you come in here talking about speeder. Are you
> dumb or something?



He has shit for an argument.  Playing word games is pretty much all that he has.


----------



## Little Wing (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> That isn't a ridiculous scenario, it happens countless times a day across the world.  Where does the line stop then?  If people causing violent, physical harm to others is not a crime by your book, what is?




two teenagers with black eyes is one thing, a gun or knife, even a rock, with intent to kill is quite another. and a court would decide on the merits of each individual case. there would be no more cases where people are murdered by a repeat offender. " One of the most disturbing facts about many murder cases is that the perpetrator        is often a repeat offender. Why are they repeat offenders? The Manhatten        Institute reported that the average prison term of murderers released in        1992 was only 5.9 years. This country is paroling murderers after only 6        years. To put it simply, murderers that are paroled have the opportunity        to kill again."

our prisons are so crowded they can't even handle the amount of criminals that need to be incarcerated so they let them go. what is your solution?


----------



## KelJu (Jul 9, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> two teenagers with black eyes is one thing, a gun or knife, even a rock, with intent to kill is quite another. and a court would decide on the merits of each individual case. there would be no more cases where people are murdered by a repeat offender. " One of the most disturbing facts about many murder cases is that the perpetrator        is often a repeat offender. Why are they repeat offenders? The Manhatten        Institute reported that the average prison term of murderers released in        1992 was only 5.9 years. This country is paroling murderers after only 6        years. To put it simply, murderers that are paroled have the opportunity        to kill again."
> 
> our prisons are so crowded they can't even handle the amount of criminals that need to be incarcerated so they let them go. what is your solution?





Lawl, you think this dumbass actually has a solution. He is talking out of his ass, and it is making the room start to smell.


----------



## juggernaut (Jul 9, 2007)

the solution is to burn them at a stake while red army ants crawl up their legs, devouring everything on them.


----------



## MGorgon (Jul 9, 2007)

My solution?  For starters,I would make drug possession/use legal, cutting back significantly on number of people in jail.  Then I would cut back on the prison quality of life, which would reduce the costs, and allow us to spend that money on increasing the size of prisons.  Then I would change the legal sex age to 14, cutting back on the number of "pedophiles" in prison for having sex with each other at 17.  Then, I would increase the average sentencing for murder, to life.  Not 20 years, but life.  A sentence with no end date is what people like stanley tucci deserve.  And in my prison system, he wouldn't be going to a country club.

My point, through all of this, is that people are far too quick to say "kill the bastard! He raped a child!" when there could be different actual circumstances.  Maybe the child lied, maybe the child was wrong, maybe he wasn't even in the country at the time?  I'm saying the justice system can't be cavalier about sentencing people to death, OR life in prison.  I agree that prison isn't taken seriously enough by a lot of repeat offenders, which is why the first thing I'd do is toughen it up significantly.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 9, 2007)

Hey, you could also cut down what qualifies as murder.


----------



## KelJu (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> My solution?  For starters,I would make drug possession/use legal, cutting back significantly on number of people in jail.  Then I would cut back on the prison quality of life, which would reduce the costs, and allow us to spend that money on increasing the size of prisons.  Then I would change the legal sex age to 14, cutting back on the number of "pedophiles" in prison for having sex with each other at 17.  Then, I would increase the average sentencing for murder, to life.  Not 20 years, but life.  A sentence with no end date is what people like stanley tucci deserve.  And in my prison system, he wouldn't be going to a country club.
> 
> My point, through all of this, is that people are far too quick to say "kill the bastard! He raped a child!" when there could be different actual circumstances.  Maybe the child lied, maybe the child was wrong, maybe he wasn't even in the country at the time?  I'm saying the justice system can't be cavalier about sentencing people to death, OR life in prison.  I agree that prison isn't taken seriously enough by a lot of repeat offenders, which is why the first thing I'd do is toughen it up significantly.






Research the cost of housing a murderer in prison for 40-60 years. 
consider the cost to the tax payer, you and I. Then consider that our grand parents can not afford their medical cost. Consider that schools are not properly funded. Consider the single moms that work for barely over minimum wage trying to take care of her kids and are struggling everyday. 

Consider how that money could be spent helping the good people of the country vs wasting it on the scum. your solution blows goats for quarters.


----------



## Little Wing (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> My solution?  For starters,I would make drug possession/use legal, cutting back significantly on number of people in jail.  Then I would cut back on the prison quality of life, which would reduce the costs, and allow us to spend that money on increasing the size of prisons.  Then I would change the legal sex age to 14, cutting back on the number of "pedophiles" in prison for having sex with each other at 17.  Then, I would increase the average sentencing for murder, to life.  Not 20 years, but life.  A sentence with no end date is what people like stanley tucci deserve.  And in my prison system, he wouldn't be going to a country club.
> 
> My point, through all of this, is that people are far too quick to say "kill the bastard! He raped a child!" when there could be different actual circumstances.  Maybe the child lied, maybe the child was wrong, maybe he wasn't even in the country at the time?  I'm saying the justice system can't be cavalier about sentencing people to death, OR life in prison.  I agree that prison isn't taken seriously enough by a lot of repeat offenders, which is why the first thing I'd do is toughen it up significantly.



you have some good ideas but i don't think it's right for a society to bear the expense of housing, feeding, medical care, clothes and other essentials , doing the laundry, the man power to staff a prison, paying their electric bill, sewer and water bills, cleaning, the price of the land and waste of land resources etc etc etc  for people who willfully denied other people the ability to live the rest of their lives or destroyed the quality of another persons life. that woman and her son will never be free of what was done to them. a headsman's job is not a pleasant one but there's little use in just sweeping these people under a very expensive rug just to avoid the blood of justice on our lily white hands.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> My solution?  For starters,I would make drug possession/use legal, cutting back significantly on number of people in jail.  Then I would cut back on the prison quality of life, which would reduce the costs, and allow us to spend that money on increasing the size of prisons.  Then I would change the legal sex age to 14, cutting back on the number of "pedophiles" in prison for having sex with each other at 17.  Then, I would increase the average sentencing for murder, to life.  Not 20 years, but life.  A sentence with no end date is what people like stanley tucci deserve.  And in my prison system, he wouldn't be going to a country club.
> 
> My point, through all of this, is that people are far too quick to say "kill the bastard! He raped a child!" when there could be different actual circumstances.  Maybe the child lied, maybe the child was wrong, maybe he wasn't even in the country at the time?  I'm saying the justice system can't be cavalier about sentencing people to death, OR life in prison.  I agree that prison isn't taken seriously enough by a lot of repeat offenders, which is why the first thing I'd do is toughen it up significantly.


----------



## MGorgon (Jul 9, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> you have some good ideas but i don't think it's right for a society to bear the expense of housing, feeding, medical care, clothes and other essentials , doing the laundry, the man power to staff a prison, paying their electric bill, sewer and water bills, cleaning, the price of the land and waste of land resources etc etc etc  for people who willfully denied other people the ability to live the rest of their lives or destroyed the quality of another persons life. that woman and her son will never be free of what was done to them. a headsman's job is not a pleasant one but there's little use in just sweeping these people under a very expensive rug just to avoid the blood of justice on our lily white hands.



Killing a human being costs the government far more then keeping him alive.  You think the person about to die just says "screw it, kill me", no, they have a lawyer draw it out for years and years, with no attempts spared to prevent his death.  Killing somebody isn't free like you people seem to think it is.



> North Carolina spends more per execution than on a non-death penalty murder case
> The most comprehensive death penalty study in the country found that the death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million more per execution than the a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of life imprisonment (Duke University, May 1993). On a national basis, these figures translate to an extra cost of over $1 billion spent since 1976 on the death penalty. The study,"The Costs of Processing Murder Cases in North Carolina" is available on line atwww-pps.aas.duke.edu/people/faculty/cook/comnc.pdf.



That is just one study in an ocean of them, cost effectiveness is an argument that has been proven wrong over and over again.  My solution, instead of murdering a person on a whim like many of you seem to want, would be to hold them in jail while the trial proves conclusively that they are indeed guilty of the charges, then lock them away permanently, unless they are later proven innocent, as has happened many times.

You always talk about how the victim suffers.  Reverse the situation, what if it was your brother, sister, whomever, on trial for murder and rape.  You know for a fact that they are innocent, but it's impossible to prove, and they are murdered by the government, how would THAT make you and your family feel?  And don't give me the tired "but, but, that never happens! you're being a sensationalist!" because it happens ALL THE FUCKING TIME.


----------



## Witmaster (Jul 9, 2007)

kcoleman said:


> ...Something tells me some of you would feel more comfortable in Nazi Germany than a free democratic society.


So....

Following this train of thought it seems you believe that people in favor of Capitol Punishment are "Nazis".

Man..... that's rich.


----------



## Little Wing (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> Killing a human being costs the government far more then keeping him alive.  You think the person about to die just says "screw it, kill me", no, they have a lawyer draw it out for years and years, with no attempts spared to prevent his death.  Killing somebody isn't free like you people seem to think it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




when someone murders your child, they take his semen out of her throat and ass and you listen while he describes her rape, torture and murder on the witness stand you write to me and tell me how happy you are that you get to pay the government to provide his legal defense and then babysit him for 5.6 years. then you write to me and tell me how you feel the day he gets out cock swinging in the breeze fantasizing about doing it again. then write to me about how you feel when he gets picked up for killing someone else's child. may you get what you hope for.


----------



## Jodi (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> My solution?  For starters,I would make drug possession/use legal, cutting back significantly on number of people in jail.  Then I would cut back on the prison quality of life, which would reduce the costs, and allow us to spend that money on increasing the size of prisons.  Then I would change the legal sex age to 14, cutting back on the number of "pedophiles" in prison for having sex with each other at 17.  Then, I would increase the average sentencing for murder, to life.  Not 20 years, but life.  A sentence with no end date is what people like stanley tucci deserve.  And in my prison system, he wouldn't be going to a country club.
> 
> My point, through all of this, is that people are far too quick to say "kill the bastard! He raped a child!" when there could be different actual circumstances.  Maybe the child lied, maybe the child was wrong, maybe he wasn't even in the country at the time?  I'm saying the justice system can't be cavalier about sentencing people to death, OR life in prison.  I agree that prison isn't taken seriously enough by a lot of repeat offenders, which is why the first thing I'd do is toughen it up significantly.


I'm still stumped here.  I'm trying to figure out if you meant this as a joke or not.   

I really hope so because I can't fathom that anyone with half a brain would even concoct such an unpractical idea..........


----------



## MGorgon (Jul 9, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> when someone murders your child, they take his semen out of her throat and ass and you listen while he describes her rape, torture and murder on the witness stand you write to me and tell me how happy you are that you get to pay the government to provide his legal defense and then babysit him for 5.6 years. then you write to me and tell me how you feel the day he gets out cock swinging in the breeze fantasizing about doing it again. then write to me about how you feel when he gets picked up for killing someone else's child. may you get what you hope for.



And you're saying I'm the one being ridiculous?  Come on, of course my first instinct would be to kill the son of a bitch, but I've said it before, the victims should NEVER be the ones doling out justice.  They are biased beyond all belief.  How about instead of a very, very partial person not versed in the legal code of the country, we allow people who are impartial and trained for this very thing.  The system isn't perfect, and under mine a person guilty of such a sickening act would be in solitary confinement every last day of his life, eating bread and water, nothing to occupy his thoughts but the reasons that his dumbass is behind bars.  Can you tell me THAT isn't punishment?


----------



## KelJu (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> And you're saying I'm the one being ridiculous?  Come on, of course my first instinct would be to kill the son of a bitch, but I've said it before, the victims should NEVER be the ones doling out justice.  They are biased beyond all belief.  How about instead of a very, very partial person not versed in the legal code of the country, we allow people who are impartial and trained for this very thing.  The system isn't perfect, and under mine a person guilty of such a sickening act would be in solitary confinement every last day of his life, eating bread and water, nothing to occupy his thoughts but the reasons that his dumbass is behind bars.  Can you tell me THAT isn't punishment?



Its a slap on the wrist compared to what they did to their victims and victim's families.

Please, please please for the love of god explain to our it is more expensive to execute someone, than to house them for 50 years. You are the only person in this thread that I unapologetically call a fucking idiot. You are too dumb to be sharing our air.


----------



## Witmaster (Jul 9, 2007)

Jodi said:


> I'm still stumped here.  I'm trying to figure out if you meant this as a joke or not.
> 
> I really hope so because I can't fathom that anyone with half a brain would even concoct such an unpractical idea..........


Sadly...... it's been the mantra of modern-day liberalism for decades now.

Rather than enforce a standard of accountability they lower the standard.

They've done it with education and graduation requirements.

They've done it with health care.

They've done it with law.

There is no end to the limit that they are willing to compromise.

Legalizing the "age of consent" to 14 so you can reduce the number of convicted pedophiles?!?!


----------



## DOMS (Jul 9, 2007)

Witmaster said:


> Sadly...... it's been the mantra of modern-day liberalism for decades now.
> 
> Rather than enforce a standard of accountability they lower the standard.
> 
> ...



 Well said!


----------



## Little Wing (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> And you're saying I'm the one being ridiculous?  Come on, of course my first instinct would be to kill the son of a bitch, but I've said it before, the victims should NEVER be the ones doling out justice.  They are biased beyond all belief.  How about instead of a very, very partial person not versed in the legal code of the country, we allow people who are impartial and trained for this very thing.  The system isn't perfect, and under mine a person guilty of such a sickening act would be in solitary confinement every last day of his life, eating bread and water, nothing to occupy his thoughts but the reasons that his dumbass is behind bars.  Can you tell me THAT isn't punishment?



Let the punishment fit the crime. Getting sent to your room for the rest of your life is preferable to death, and hardly a fitting punishment for murder. And reality is a bit more like this

 * [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]P.J.'s                    Story[/FONT]




*
 *[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The                      wheels were set in motion for the outcome of this case long                      before the criminals were even arrested. How so? The emergency                      units were called to the trailer home (3431 Libby Drive) of                      Patrick Bourgeois in Columbus, Ohio on February 28th, 1996.                      They were told "someone was having trouble breathing".                      In route to the home, they learned it was a child and stepped                      up the pace. When the EMT's arrived at the scene they pounded                      on the door repeatedly asking to be let in, but no one came                      to the door. Instead, the EMT's could hear arguing inside                      the home, not a tormented or grief stricken arguing, but an                      argument between two people who were very angry with each                      other. The EMT's would later learn the couple was attempting                      to clean up the body of the already dead boy and hide the                      tape they had used to bind his arms and legs with. After what                      seemed like forever, the door finally swung open and there                      lie little Pj on the floor. [/FONT]*
 *
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mike Bates voice breaks as he retells what he saw to Bob Greene,                      a Chicago Tribune reporter who has taken this case to a personal                      level. " I remember the moment that I saw the human bite                      marks on his side. Like someone had taken a bite out of his                      flesh. You could see where every tooth had bitten the boys                      skin. Upper and lower." Bates reported that he kept looking                      at the child face as he worked to bring him back to life.                      "His ears were red and bruised, like someone had pulled                      on them. One of the ears had these fingernail marks, like                      someone had ripped at it." [/FONT]*
 *
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Once                      Pj's still lifeless body reached Children's Hospital's emergency                      room, Bates reported seeing more bite marks on his back and                      neck. He also saw markings from the tape they had used to                      bind him on his legs and arms.   [/FONT]*
 *
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mike Cogdill, a paramedic assigned to the ER that evening                      recalls when Pj was rushed into the ER. Cogdill recalls trying                      to insert an I.V. line, he took the lifeless childs left arm                      when he saw one of the many bite marks on Pj's body. He then                      noticed the "furry stuff" on Pj's wrists and ankles                      where he'd been bound by tape. Cogdill said "Had they                      of shot him in the head, he would have suffered less."                      Cogdill's 30 minute trip home that night was a trip made in                      tears. [/FONT]*
 *
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The forensic pathologist who performed the autopsy on Pj,                      Dr. Patrick M. Fardal, has stated publicly that what he found                      was not "accidental". What he stated was "It                      was a homicide by child abuse." Dr. Fardal states clearly                      Pj's cause of death, "He was beaten and he was physically                      restrained, and while he was restrained he swallowed his own                      blood and choked to death on it." The autopsy report                      concludes that the beating Pj suffered was brutal to say the                      least. [/FONT]*
 *
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Pj's                      forehead and mouth were cut, and "abundant blood is seen                      to come out of the nose of this patient." Deep human                      bite marks were found on his left side and the back of his                      neck. There were abrasions around both of Pj's ears, which                      would later be learned came from the boy being drug around                      by his ears. The autopsy also showed eight bruises on the                      underside of Pj's scalp, which are undoubtedly the result                      of very hard blows to the head. There was bleeding on the                      surface of Pj's brain along with substantial swelling. There                      was blood in his lungs, in his airway, blood in his small                      bowel, his esophagus and stomach.  [/FONT]*
                    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*
I realize what you've just read probably disgusted you, but                      that was my intention. My intention was for you to realize                      what happened to this poor innocent child, this defenseless                      child so that when you read the following pages and see what                      the justice system did to him afterwards, you'll be as compelled                      as I was to try to make a change. You see the injustice didn't                      stop there, it didn't stop with Pj's death, it would continue                      on through our courts system to Franklin County Common Pleas                      Court Judge Nodine Miller who claimed they had shown remorse                      and freed them from jail after only 3 years, to the prosecuting                      attorneys who refused to file murder one charges, to the defending                      attorneys who abused the "super shock probation"                      law, to Pj's father and his girlfriend who now walk the streets                      as free people. For a full scope of the miscarriage of justice,                      read the following articles. I'll just about guarantee that                      you'll be as angry as I am. "*[/FONT]
 [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
 P.J.'s                    Killers Set Free![/FONT]
  [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]




[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

 They                      beat him, they bit him repeatedly, they drug him around the                      house by his ears, they taped his legs together, then his                      arms behind his back and left him to drowned in his own blood.                      After serving only three years in prison, they now walk among                      us as free people. How was this allowed to happen? I'll tell                      you. [/FONT]*
 *[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
A series of mistakes, a judge sympathetic to the killers,                      a defense attorney with no conscious and a judicial system                      that doesn't see children as victims is how it happened. Throw                      in a little known law on the Ohio books called super shock                      probation and that's how these two vicious killers walked                      out of prison.  [/FONT]*
 *[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
If you've never heard of the super shock law, you're certainly                      not alone. It has crossed my mind more than once how this                      law was able to pass with so little knowledge by the public.                      I think it's one of those things they slipped in without anyone                      else knowing. Keep reading to learn what super shock is and                      how it works. After you've read it, I urge you to contact                      your congressman, your state senator and have this law repealed. [/FONT]*
 *[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Super                      shock probation allows a judge, at their discretion, to release                      convicted criminals from prison before they are even eligible                      for a parole hearing. How can that be you ask? Shock probation                      began as a scared straight sort of program in the mid 1970's.                      It was designed to give a person a taste of prison life in                      the hopes that they wouldn't want to go back. It was very                      seldom used for criminals serving long sentences. [/FONT]*
 *[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
The law was changed, revised and added to when the lawmakers,                      in their infinite wisdom, added something called Super Shock                      Probation. Super shock probation said that a person need only                      server 90 days to be eligible for early release from prison.                      The prisoner could be let out at any time, no parole hearing                      was needed, no testimony, no nothing, only a judge to utter                      the words "let 'im go!" [/FONT]*
 *[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
There are huge problems with super shock probation, the obvious                      one, criminals who should remain in prison are being let out                      early, but another problem, which I see as the main problem                      is this. Super shock probation does come with stipulations.                      One of those stipulations is that a criminal can only ask                      for super shock probation one time during the course of his                      sentence. If the request is denied, he can never ask for it                      again. Low life defense attorneys have however found a way                      around this little "problem".[/FONT]*
 *[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Rather than risk a denial and forfeit any chance of another,                      the attorneys would "hint" to the judge that they                      were "thinking" of filing a petition for super shock                      probation for their client "so and so". The judge,                      who in my opinion is just as guilty of this miscarriage of                      justice as the scum bag defense attorneys, would let them                      know in no uncertain terms if they should or shouldn't make                      the request. If the attorneys heard something along these                      lines, " I don't think it's a good time for you do that."                      or "No, now's not a good time." The attorney knew                      not to file a request on the record.[/FONT]*
 *[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
The attorneys for Bourgeois and Bratton approached judge Miller                      about every six months and were told no. Personally, I think                      this in itself is a miscarriage of justice. It just goes to                      show that criminals can find a way around anything and I feel                      that the attorney's who defend them, are no better than the                      criminal themselves. 





it happens ALL the time.
[/FONT]* 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]


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## Little Wing (Jul 9, 2007)

*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]6                    Year Old John Doe

Beaten, Bound and Nearly Killed[/FONT]*

*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He                    was hot ... so very hot. He was so hot that the perspiration                    literally dripped off of him soaking his meager clothing. He                    cried out, "Let me out! Please let me out!" When no                    response came, he cried out again. He looked around at his surroundings,                    the small 2 1/2 foot by 3 bathroom broom closet wasn't much                    space, hardly enough for him to turn around in. There was no                    fresh air that came in, no light, only darkness for hours on                    end. There were heavy chains wrapped under his arms to ensure                    that he would stay on his feet and not lie down.


 [/FONT]**[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]....                    His head hurt him terribly. It had gotten bruised and sometimes                    bled because in order to sleep he had to rest his head against                    the fence that had been constructed around him. The fence, a                    coiled wire fence that stood over his head, was wrapped tightly                    around him thereby keeping him in an upright position. The chains                    locked him to the fence, another added safety measure to ensure                    his torment. He literally had to sleep standing up. He knew                    he'd be lucky if he was brought any food. Even if he was it                    would either be dish soap, so that he'd stop screaming to get                    out, or some piece of food covered in Tabasco sauce. He was                    so thirsty, it'd been hours since he'd had a drink, how long                    he couldn't tell for certain, he just knew it'd been a very                    long time. He cried out again for a drink, "I'm thirsty!                    Please, I'm thirsty!" The door was yanked open and a grown                    man's form filled the entry way. He felt something wet hit him                    as the man's laughter echoed through the little space with horrifying                    clarity. All at once with a sickness he couldn't even name,                    he realized that this man was his father, and he was urinating                    on him.


[/FONT]**[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The                    above is not from a horror movie, or a book, though I certainly                    wish it were. What I have described above is what 6 year old                    *John Doe had to suffer through for a solid two months before                    he was rescued from his dungeon of hell. The story gets worse                    though, much worse. It began when *John's mother dropped him                    off with his father, Joseph Grad (31) and his wife (she was                    a bigamist as she was still married to another man when she                    wed Joseph Grad) Carmen Grad (35). Joseph Grad stated to Carmen                    that *John was his kid and he would punish him as he saw fit.                    Carmen herself was no innocent in *John's abuse. After hours                    upon hours, sometimes as much as 24 hours straight, of being                    locked up in the closet, 6 year old *John lost control of his                    bowels. Upon finding the defecation, Carmen took a paper towel,                    picked up the defecation and proceeded to smear it completely                    covering *John's face with it. While he was screaming that it                    was burning his face, Joseph Grad would simply turn the radio                    up to over power *John's screams of pain... [/FONT]* 
*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]*


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## juggernaut (Jul 9, 2007)

okay, so for all you lame ass people who dont believe we should give an for an eye, what do you do to appease the family of the above story? You can because there is no way you can bring a kid or family member back to life. I say we hang them if you want to be realistic.


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## Little Wing (Jul 9, 2007)

these stories are as endless as the parade of killers that enter and leave our prisons every day. our legal system is a joke.


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## Steele20 (Jul 9, 2007)

MGorgon said:


> And you're saying I'm the one being ridiculous?  Come on, of course my first instinct would be to kill the son of a bitch, but I've said it before, the victims should NEVER be the ones doling out justice.  They are biased beyond all belief.  How about instead of a very, very partial person not versed in the legal code of the country, we allow people who are impartial and trained for this very thing.  The system isn't perfect, and under mine a person guilty of such a sickening act would be in solitary confinement every last day of his life, eating bread and water, nothing to occupy his thoughts but the reasons that his dumbass is behind bars.  Can you tell me THAT isn't punishment?



Why not just put a 30 cent bullet in his head and save some money? 

These god fanatics sure know how to fuck this shit up.


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## Witmaster (Jul 9, 2007)

Steele20 said:


> Why not just put a 30 cent bullet in his head and save some money?
> 
> * These god fanatics sure know how to fuck this shit up.*


Whoa there big fella.....

I [also] suggested a bullet in the head.  Why bring "god" into this?


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## Steele20 (Jul 9, 2007)

Witmaster said:


> Whoa there big fella.....
> 
> I [also] suggested a bullet in the head.  Why bring "god" into this?



Common man, really? How many people have you met that believe in god (By god fanatic I mean hardcore Christian or equivalent) and believe in the death penalty for child rapest and murderers? Maybe you're my first?


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## Pylon (Jul 9, 2007)

Don't generalize too much there.  I'm one of those "liberals" and a Democrat who gets called out around here...but I'm for killing these bastards in the most painful way possible.

I have an uncle (by marriage) who is up on charges for having/sharing child porn.  His story is that he was surfing online and it "just popped up".  (I call bullshit on that, by the way.  Feds don't go after people at that level.)  Anyway, it's become an issue with my parents, who are very conservative, but can't bring themselves to admit what a dirtbag the guy is.  I've known him for a long time, and he was always a very nice and charming fellow.  He's almost 80, and is at home on house arrest until the trial.  I hope he never sees the light of day once they lock him up (which should be soon.)


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## min0 lee (Jul 9, 2007)

Pylon said:


> what a dirtbag the guy is.
> 
> I've known him for a long time, and he was always a very nice and charming fellow.
> 
> I hope he never sees the light of day once they lock him up (which should be soon.)


Mixed signals here. 

Is he a nice guy or a bad guy? 
He's 80 years old and most people that age don't know jack about computers. Maybe it was a mixup on his part, he was probably googled something like


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## Pylon (Jul 9, 2007)

Let me emphasize...._was always a nice guy..._past tense.  

The feds took his PC due to the sheer volume of kiddie porn he was stashing and sharing with a close circle of online friends.  

I spent a couple of years working with abused kids back in the day.  I give a shit how old he is.  Once you are that involved, you're no longer needed in these parts...


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## min0 lee (Jul 9, 2007)

Pylon said:


> Let me emphasize...._was always a nice guy..._past tense.
> 
> *The feds took his PC due to the sheer volume of kiddie porn he was stashing and sharing with a close circle of online friends. *
> 
> I spent a couple of years working with abused kids back in the day. I give a shit how old he is. Once you are that involved, you're no longer needed in these parts...


I see now.

For an 80 to be still interested in sex is bit of an accomplishment.


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## DOMS (Jul 9, 2007)

Steele20 said:


> Common man, really? How many people have you met that believe in god (By god fanatic I mean hardcore Christian or equivalent) and believe in the death penalty for child rapest and murderers? Maybe you're my first?



I live in Christian central (in the west).  Pretty much all of them believe in the death penalty for people like that.

You've got your views of Christians and the death penalty all fucked up.


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## Witmaster (Jul 9, 2007)

Steele20 said:


> Common man, really? How many people have you met that believe in god (By god fanatic I mean hardcore Christian or equivalent) and believe in the death penalty for child rapest and murderers? Maybe you're my first?


I actually believe that Capital Punishment is scriptural.  I know several fundamental Christians who believe the same.


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## KelJu (Jul 9, 2007)

Most Christians I know are Southern Baptist, and they are probably 90% pro death penalty, from the sample of a couple 1000 I surveyed indirectly.


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## juggernaut (Jul 10, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> I see now.
> 
> For an 80 to be still interested in sex is bit of an accomplishment.


come on...I expected tasteless humor from me, not you. Thats not even funny.


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## Plateau_Max (Jul 10, 2007)

Witmaster said:


> Oh like hell.....
> 
> Prisons are so over-crowded now it's crazy to think extending sentences and labor-loads would do any real good.  Just look how well this rationale is working today!?!
> 
> ...



Wrong.  Most prisons don't require hard labor at all.  Most of the prisons that require labor it's just for in-prison things like doing everyone's laundry or some crap.  You can hire a guy for $8 an hour to do laundry.  I don't want prisoners to have rehabilitation programs unless they're due to get out of prison very soon, like 1-5 years or something.  If you have a really long prison sentence or life in prison I say you should live in SHITTY cramped horrible living conditions.

Hard Labor prisons like Leavenworth require around 10-12 hours hard labor per day with time to sit and eat meals.  I'm thinking EVERY SINGLE PRISON should have to do some form of hard labor that actually produces a product which can be sold to the public for capital gains and the prisoners should be working 14-16 hours per day 7 days a week with no exceptions and eating MREs or something that they only need 10 minutes to eat so they can get their criminal asses back to work.

I think killing somone because they killed someone else is a retarded idea.  If one kid punches another kid, and that kid punches him back, you're only left with two angry kids with bruises, no solutions, no progress, NOTHING.  Also forgiveness is something everyone needs to work on.  I can forgive a theif for robbing me (doesn't mean I want him anywhere near my house again of course).  Mostly because I feel that if you can't forgive someone for doing wrong by you, you don't deserve to be forgiven for something wrong you did to someone else.


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## min0 lee (Jul 10, 2007)

juggernaut said:


> come on...I expected tasteless humor from me, not you. Thats not even funny.


You don't know me too well.


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## DOMS (Jul 10, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> Hard Labor prisons like Leavenworth require around 10-12 hours hard labor per day with time to sit and eat meals.  I'm thinking EVERY SINGLE PRISON should have to do some form of hard labor that actually produces a product which can be sold to the public for capital gains and the prisoners should be working 14-16 hours per day 7 days a week with no exceptions and eating MREs or something that they only need 10 minutes to eat so they can get their criminal asses back to work.



You might like Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Arizona.  He uses his inmates to do labor on behalf of the state.  And he feeds them as cheaply as possible (think, green bologna).



Plateau_Max said:


> I think killing somone because they killed someone else is a retarded idea.  If one kid punches another kid, and that kid punches him back, you're only left with two angry kids with bruises, no solutions, no progress, NOTHING.  Also forgiveness is something everyone needs to work on.  I can forgive a theif for robbing me (doesn't mean I want him anywhere near my house again of course).  Mostly because I feel that if you can't forgive someone for doing wrong by you, you don't deserve to be forgiven for something wrong you did to someone else.



You're comparing punching to killing?  And you call capital punishment retarded?

There's a reason that murders have been executed (and quite often, still are), is two fold.  First, people that have killed often find it easier to kill again.  Second, it takes a very messed up person to actually commit wanton murder.  Wantonly killing a fellow human being requires the wrenching free of social mores in order to be able to this.  It's simply not a casual task.

In simple terms, a person that has killed once is a real, continued, threat to society.

Not only that, but justice is about making the punishment fit the crime.  But you don't seem to think so.  It's because of people like *you *that a man can kill his 8 month old girlfriend's daughter, by beating her against a wall, and only be sentenced to 10 years in jail.


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## Plateau_Max (Jul 10, 2007)

Nah, I'd have thrown away the key on that guy too, and tossed him in the pit with the rest of the laborers for the rest of his natural life.

You are making too many assumptions on me.  Also, it's not retarded to compare a situation using metaphors, which is what I was doing with the punching kid story.

The fact that it's easier to kill after you've done it once already?  Yeah all the more reason to hold them indefinitely, being forced to contribute to society unwillingly for the rest of his/her life and never endangering any of us ever again.


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## DOMS (Jul 10, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> You are making too many assumptions on me.  Also, it's not retarded to compare a situation using metaphors, which is what I was doing with the punching kid story.



You used a metaphor of punching in contrast to killing.  A very poor choice.



Plateau_Max said:


> The fact that it's easier to kill after you've done it once already?  Yeah all the more reason to hold them indefinitely, being forced to contribute to society unwillingly for the rest of his/her life and never endangering any of us ever again.



Do you really think that the cost of housing an image minus the servitude comes out as a profit for the state?

So a guy rapes and murders a 5 year old girl and get sentenced to life in jail.  From that point on, my money, your money, and pretty much every other American, gets to pay for his keep.  

He fucks a little girl while she's crying and screaming for her mommy.  The last thing she sees, and gets to experience, is the guy cutting her into small pieces.  And, in return, he get three hots and a cot for the rest of his life.

Oh yeah, that sounds like justice alright...


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## DOMS (Jul 10, 2007)

I'd be so very fucking happy to pass a law that, every time a repeat offender kills or rapes someone, one bleeding heart liberal who cries for the rights of the criminal over that of the victim, gets to share in that person's sentence.

I pay good fucking money for that.


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## Plateau_Max (Jul 10, 2007)

See now you're lumping in a political stereotype with your need for murderous retribution.  And how is my metaphor a poor choice?  It's a damn metaphor do you even know what that means?

Also, my way of thinking is the criminals aren't given three hots and a cot, I'm thinking their lunch is a 50 cent turkey sandwich with no plate that he gets to eat during the 10 minute break he gets from doing his construction job that would normally pay someone $20-30 per hour.  A cot?  Try a few pieces of cardboard.  Someone wants to cry about them sleeping on cardboard tell them to help the homeless who sleep on cardboard first, and after every single homeless person has a job and better living conditions THEN we can help the prisoners.


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## DOMS (Jul 10, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> See now you're lumping in a political stereotype with your need for murderous retribution.



What you mistakenly call "murderous retribution" is called justice.

I'd really love to see what how you'd act, and hear what you'd say, after your daughter (or wife) gets brutally raped and murdered.  For people like _you_, it's always about abstracts and "somebody else."



Plateau_Max said:


> And how is my metaphor a poor choice?  It's a damn metaphor do you even know what that means?



Yes, I know the metaphor.  I've seen it used numerous times.  the problem is that you used a metaphor of light violence in relation to a very real, and violent, act.



Plateau_Max said:


> Also, my way of thinking is the criminals aren't given three hots and a cot, I'm thinking their lunch is a 50 cent turkey sandwich with no plate that he gets to eat during the 10 minute break he gets from doing his construction job that would normally pay someone $20-30 per hour.  A cot?  Try a few pieces of cardboard.  Someone wants to cry about them sleeping on cardboard tell them to help the homeless who sleep on cardboard first, and after every single homeless person has a job and better living conditions THEN we can help the prisoners.



The problem is that they're still a burden on society and justice hasn't been met.


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## Jodi (Jul 10, 2007)

DOMS said:


> You might like Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Arizona.  He uses his inmates to do labor on behalf of the state.  And he feeds them as cheaply as possible (think, green bologna).


I like him   I think his pink underwear for all the inmates was funny as hell.


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## DOMS (Jul 10, 2007)

Jodi said:


> I like him   I think his pink underwear for all the inmates was funny as hell.



 Me too!

I really like how practical he is.  I enjoyed the big brouhaha when he fed the inmates ostrich because a farmer (that was going out of business) gave him the meat for free.

They didn't like the idea that he was feeding the inmates a quality meat.  He only cared that it was free.


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## Jodi (Jul 10, 2007)

DOMS said:


> Me too!
> 
> I really like how practical he is.  I enjoyed the big brouhaha when he fed the inmates ostrich because a farmer (that was going out of business) gave him the meat for free.
> 
> They didn't like the idea that he was feeding the inmates a quality meat.  He only cared that it was free.


What's he down to 47 cents per day to feed each inmate?  They are allowed 2 meals a day only.  

Bring back the black and white's was another good one too.  Didn't he restart the chain gang as well?


----------



## DOMS (Jul 10, 2007)

Jodi said:


> What's he down to 47 cents per day to feed each inmate?  They are allowed 2 meals a day only.
> 
> Bring back the black and white's was another good one too.  Didn't he restart the chain gang as well?



Yes he did.  A lot of people got upset and said that it was cruel to the inmates.  I think his reply was "So?"

I also like the tents that he houses them in.

I watched a new report where they interviewed the inmates about being in jail under Sheriff Joe.  One guy said "I ain't never going to jail in Arizona again!"


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## BoneCrusher (Jul 10, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> See now you're lumping in a political stereotype with your need for murderous retribution.  And how is my metaphor a poor choice?  It's a damn metaphor do you even know what that means?
> 
> Also, my way of thinking is the criminals aren't given three hots and a cot, I'm thinking their lunch is a 50 cent turkey sandwich with no plate that he gets to eat during the 10 minute break he gets from doing his construction job that would normally pay someone $20-30 per hour.  A cot?  Try a few pieces of cardboard.  Someone wants to cry about them sleeping on cardboard tell them to help the homeless who sleep on cardboard first, and after every single homeless person has a job and better living conditions THEN we can help the prisoners.


Not tryin' to bag on ya but our prison systems are pretty plush all things considered.  Prison life is not the hard time it's portrayed to be in the movies.  It can be if the inmate is a dufas or a trouble-maker, but mostly not so much.  After a person settles in and resigns to the reality of it all a kinda rhythm sets in.  Work, eat, socialize, play handball and workout, visitation, and read/study.  For you to operate under the assumption that prison life is some kind of harsh existence is to operate under an illusion.   Prison sux no doubt, but hard time?  One out of a thousand inmates does hard time and normally they bring it on them selves.   Before you go there, no ~ being convicted of this kind of crime _will not_ bring on that hard time you describe.  Vicious offenders go into general population and do the same time as the guy who wrote too many hot checks.

There is no comparative justice for the victims in sentencing their victimizers with these kinds of crimes to today's prison systems.  Building up some kind of harsh prison existence for them in your mind only allows you to live with the illusion that it will be a proper justice.  It's an easy life.  Work a few hours a day at an easy job, read, eat commissary, call home when ever you want, play cards or chess or dominoes, sleep as much as you want, and socialize with your homies  .  How does that = justice for the victims?  It wouldn't for me.

Revising our sentencing process to exclude anything but forensic proof as grounds for the death penalty would make the wrongly convicted getting executed a thing of the past.  The harshness of that may grate against your soul in a way that makes it seem inhumane and beyond our right to impose, but we're talking about the worst our species has to offer.  This subgroup of subhumans gave up their right to be treated in a humane way when they stopped respecting the rights of all of us.  Something has to be done.


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## Little Wing (Jul 10, 2007)

reality is a lot of guys sit in prison playing video games. some prisons let them play 24/7.


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## Plateau_Max (Jul 10, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> Not tryin' to bag on ya but our prison systems are pretty plush all things considered.  Prison life is not the hard time it's portrayed to be in the movies.  It can be if the inmate is a dufas or a trouble-maker, but mostly not so much.  After a person settles in and resigns to the reality of it all a kinda rhythm sets in.  Work, eat, socialize, play handball and workout, visitation, and read/study.  For you to operate under the assumption that prison life is some kind of harsh existence is to operate under an illusion.   Prison sux no doubt, but hard time?  One out of a thousand inmates does hard time and normally they bring it on them selves.
> 
> There is no comparative justice for the victims in sentencing their victimizers with these kinds of crimes to today's prison systems.  Building up some kind of harsh prison existence for them in your mind only allows you to live with the illusion that it will be a proper justice.  It's an easy life.  Work a few hours a day at an easy job, read, eat commissary, call home when ever you want, play cards or chess or dominoes, sleep as much as you want, and socialize with your homies  .  How does that = justice for the victims?  It wouldn't for me.
> 
> Revising our sentencing process to exclude anything but forensic proof as grounds for the death penalty would make the wrongly convicted getting executed a thing of the past.  The harshness of that may grate against your soul in a way that makes it seem inhumane and beyond our right to impose, but we're talking about the worst our species has to offer.  This subgroup of subhumans gave up their right to be treated in a humane way when they stopped respecting the rights of all of us.  Something has to be done.



I am COMPLETELY in agreeance about our prisons.  What I'm saying is instead of the death penalty we need to take our prisons and remove all the plush care and turn them into a seriously harsh reality.  Take the cots and beds out and replace them with cardboard.  Take out the sitting around reading time and replace it with hard labor.  Take out the sitting at a table with your friends eating a hot meal and replace it with stepping away from your job for 10 minutes to eat your cold lunchmeat sandwich made from stuff that's about to expire that the grocery stores give the prison for free instead of throwing away.  Take out the gyms, weight rooms, replace with more shops for more labor.

As I said before even places revered as tough slams like leavenworth only have you working 10-12 hours a day.  I'm thinking 16.  I've worked 16 hour days in the Air Force over in the middle east with only 1 day off a week... the idea of doing that 7 days a week for the next 50-70 years would make me contemplate suicide... believe me there are things much worse than a quick death that are more economical.

And quit cramming this "if it was you" bullshit down my throat.  Like I said before, if it was me in that situation I would not be thinking rationally... so I shouldn't be the one making the call.  If my family was murdered of course I would be quick to say throw the switch on the electric chair, so to make a rational logical decision you need someone with their head on straight to analyze the situation and make the best call.

Oh, and DOMS what you mistakenly call justice, is murderous retribution.


----------



## DOMS (Jul 10, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> And quit cramming this "if it was you" bullshit down my throat.  Like I said before, if it was me in that situation I would not be thinking rationally... so I shouldn't be the one making the call.  If my family was murdered of course I would be quick to say throw the switch on the electric chair, so to make a rational logical decision you need someone with their head on straight to analyze the situation and make the best call.



I hope that one day, you truly get to feel the sting of what you consider to be justice.  I hope that you can feel the impotence of sitting there while the courts slap some guy on wrist with 20 years as you cry in the stands.

But you'd be okay with that.



Plateau_Max said:


> Oh, and DOMS what you mistakenly call justice, is murderous retribution.



So witty...


----------



## BoneCrusher (Jul 10, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> I am COMPLETELY in agreeance about our prisons.  What I'm saying is instead of the death penalty we need to take our prisons and remove all the plush care and turn them into a seriously harsh reality.  Take the cots and beds out and replace them with cardboard.  Take out the sitting around reading time and replace it with hard labor.  Take out the sitting at a table with your friends eating a hot meal and replace it with stepping away from your job for 10 minutes to eat your cold lunchmeat sandwich made from stuff that's about to expire that the grocery stores give the prison for free instead of throwing away.  Take out the gyms, weight rooms, replace with more shops for more labor.
> 
> As I said before even places revered as tough slams like leavenworth only have you working 10-12 hours a day.  I'm thinking 16.  I've worked 16 hour days in the Air Force over in the middle east with only 1 day off a week... the idea of doing that 7 days a week for the next 50-70 years would make me contemplate suicide... believe me there are things much worse than a quick death that are more economical.
> 
> ...


I'm beyond that "if it was you" bullshit since you don't have it in you.  My point is that you have a right to your perspective but it needs to based in reality, not in the system you envision.  In this world and in this instance there will be no comparative justice given through a prison sentence.  

You may feel it would be justice just to lock them up, but so far most everybody else in this thread doesn't.  That is a democracy.  Majority rule.  If the freaks of nature that did this were tried by an IM populated jury then it would by lights out in a harsh way.  I'm thinking death by decapitation with a smith machine


----------



## Burner02 (Jul 10, 2007)

I'm gonna 'ride the fence' on this one...I lean towards what BC is saying...but I also see what PM is saying.
I am tired of my hard earned paychecks being spent on new prisons...I say: tent cities. If a tent is good enough for our volounteer men and women in the military...by gawd they are good enough for scum of the earth. 
Hard time. I like that. 
Put these new tent cities in inhospitable areas: swamp, desert....etc. Creature comforts: toilet paper, shower once a week. 
Now...at time of sentancing...let the judge give the convicted two options. (which is more than their victims had)
1) life sentance in said tent city
2) death by lethal injection. No appeal. 

That sounds fair. I'll vote for it.


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## Burner02 (Jul 10, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> I'm thinking death by decapitation with a smith machine


wow...there's actually a use for that thing now?????


----------



## largepkg (Jul 10, 2007)

*This shithole is 5 miles from my office!*




SUNSENTINEL said:


> Gang rape of mother, son throws a spotlight on West Palm housing project
> 
> By BRIAN SKOLOFF & JENNIFER KAY
> Sun-Sentinel.com
> ...


----------



## Jodi (Jul 10, 2007)

DOMS said:


> Yes he did.  A lot of people got upset and said that it was cruel to the inmates.  I think his reply was "So?"
> 
> I also like the tents that he houses them in.
> 
> I watched a new report where they interviewed the inmates about being in jail under Sheriff Joe.  One guy said "I ain't never going to jail in Arizona again!"


Hey he's harsh.......no doubt about it but it's not like they don't deserve it.  Could you imagine being one of his inmates.....just picture.

Living in a guarded tent in Tent City, which is nothing more than a large parking lot of old military tents, in your pink underwear in the sweltering 110+ degrees.  I love it 

They said it was cruel too that he had them in the heat like that.  His response was how our troops in Iraq live and fight in much higher temps, all bundled in gear and live out tents and they didn't commit any crimes!  Good for him!


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## Witmaster (Jul 10, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> Wrong.  Most prisons don't require hard labor at all.  Most of the prisons that require labor it's just for in-prison things like doing everyone's laundry or some crap.  You can hire a guy for $8 an hour to do laundry.  I don't want prisoners to have rehabilitation programs unless they're due to get out of prison very soon, like 1-5 years or something.  If you have a really long prison sentence or life in prison I say you should live in *SHITTY cramped horrible living conditions.*


Ok we both know that the ACLU (the same people who oppose the death penalty) would never allow that to happen.  Especially if one of your hypothetical "innocent convicts" were subjected to your proposed prison standards.



Plateau_Max said:


> Hard Labor prisons like Leavenworth require around 10-12 hours hard labor per day with time to sit and eat meals.  I'm thinking EVERY SINGLE PRISON should have to do some form of hard labor that actually produces a product which can be sold to the public for capital gains and the prisoners should be working 14-16 hours per day 7 days a week with no exceptions and eating MREs or something that they only need 10 minutes to eat so they can get their criminal asses back to work.


You'll get no argument from me here.  Every Prisoner should be required to break rocks.  Even those sitting on Death Row.



Plateau_Max said:


> I think killing somone because they killed someone else is a retarded idea.  If one kid punches another kid, and that kid punches him back, you're only left with two angry kids with bruises, no solutions, no progress, NOTHING.  Also forgiveness is something everyone needs to work on.  I can forgive a theif for robbing me (doesn't mean I want him anywhere near my house again of course).  Mostly because I feel that if you can't forgive someone for doing wrong by you, you don't deserve to be forgiven for something wrong you did to someone else.


Ok.... Doms pointed out the complete absurdity in your choice of "metaphors" here.  I'll jump to your other examples...

You say you forgive the thief yet you don't want them near your house?  Well then, you haven't REALLY forgiven them then, have you?

Likewise, if someone lied to you... would you then NEVER trust a word they said again?  What if it was your brother?  Or child?

You see... your examples are entirely subjective at best and, depending on contributing factors and/or mitigating circumstances, could merit entirely different outcomes.

Likewise...  there are some crimes against mankind that are worthy of a death penalty.


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## mboylan86 (Jul 11, 2007)

KelJu said:


> WRONG WRONG WRONG!
> 
> These guys deserve to be tortured to death.



torture would be too easy


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## BoneCrusher (Jul 11, 2007)

mboylan86 said:


> torture would be too easy


Weeeelllll ... that's a perspective issue.  With the proper effort it wouldn't be easy by a damn sight <insert Pulp Fiction quote here>.


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## KelJu (Jul 11, 2007)

I also disagree with PM's metaphor. We aren't talking about a school yard fight. We are talking about the violent rape and assault of a poor woman and he child. These people should be killed to insure they they never do it again.


In a fair world, all of you fuckers defending these criminals would have your mother and little brother raped, beaten, and forced to perform oral sex on each other. 

Your sympathies are in the wrong place, and your ideas are weak and a danger to society.


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## DOMS (Jul 11, 2007)

KelJu said:


> I also disagree with PM's metaphor. We aren't talking about a school yard fight. We are talking about the violent rape and assault of a poor woman and he child. These people should be killed to insure they they never do it again.
> 
> 
> In a fair world, all of you fuckers defending these criminals would have your mother and little brother raped, beaten, and forced to perform oral sex on each other.
> ...



I figured out a way to save money, and solve a problem.  

Since there are some assholes...excuse me, I mean "people", out there that feel we shouldn't execute such heinous people, I say we put the criminals in their houses.  They can pay for that criminal's food and lodgings.  

Plus, if that person doesn't _really _deserve death, they can rehabilitate him.  Or he can kill them.  Either way, it's a win-win.


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## Little Wing (Jul 11, 2007)

DOMS said:


> I figured out a way to save money, and solve a problem.
> 
> Since there are some assholes...excuse me, I mean "people", out there that feel we shouldn't execute such heinous people, I say we put the criminals in their houses.  They can pay for that criminal's food and lodgings.
> 
> Plus, if that person doesn't _really _deserve death, they can rehabilitate him.  Or he can kill them.  Either way, it's a win-win.




i like the way you think


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## KelJu (Jul 11, 2007)

DOMS said:


> I figured out a way to save money, and solve a problem.
> 
> Since there are some assholes...excuse me, I mean "people", out there that feel we shouldn't execute such heinous people, I say we put the criminals in their houses.  They can pay for that criminal's food and lodgings.
> 
> Plus, if that person doesn't _really _deserve death, they can rehabilitate him.  Or he can kill them.  Either way, it's a win-win.



Well lets get this ball rolling. All these bleeding hearts can lodge these murderers, rapist, and child molesters in their home. Buy bunkbeds, and let them sleep in their children's room.

We have nice piece of legislation we can try to get our representatives to push through congress.


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## DOMS (Jul 11, 2007)

If only...


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## Witmaster (Jul 11, 2007)

And speaking of merits for the Death Penalty...

Maybe we could learn a few things from China!


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## Plateau_Max (Jul 11, 2007)

Another thing I don't understand.  You all seem to praise Sherrif Joe yet condemn my thoughts even though my thinking matches his almost exactly.

Oh and did I ever say anything about giving someone 20 years when he deserves life?  No.  If anything I would extend sentences.  For some reason you're all looking at my anti-death opinion and thinking I don't want these guy in prison at all.  Don't be stupid.  I want them in prison away from society where they can do no harm any more, I want them in barely livable conditions working their criminal asses off making money for everyone but themselves.

Does it really sound like I want to make it easy on these people?  I sure hope you're not that stupid.  Oh and if some guy killed my brother or mother etc, and he came to live with me... I still wouldn't kill him, I'd want it to be legal for me to have him chained up in my basement for the rest of his life working to pay my bills while I fed him scraps that I didn't feel like giving to my dogs.


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## BoneCrusher (Jul 11, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> Another thing I don't understand.  You all seem to praise Sherrif Joe yet condemn my thoughts even though my thinking matches his almost exactly.
> 
> Oh and did I ever say anything about giving someone 20 years when he deserves life?  No.  If anything I would extend sentences.  For some reason you're all looking at my anti-death opinion and thinking I don't want these guy in prison at all.  Don't be stupid.  I want them in prison away from society where they can do no harm any more, I want them in barely livable conditions working their criminal asses off making money for everyone but themselves.
> 
> Does it really sound like I want to make it easy on these people?  I sure hope you're not that stupid.  Oh and if some guy killed my brother or mother etc, and he came to live with me... I still wouldn't kill him, I'd want it to be legal for me to have him chained up in my basement for the rest of his life working to pay my bills while I fed him scraps that I didn't feel like giving to my dogs.


No it doesn't sound like you want to make it easy on these assholes.  You don't put the needs of society or the rights of the victims above your own perspective though.  Give that a whirl.  Think from the perspective of what Kelju or DOMS wants, then ask yourself if you have the right to let your personal beliefs to interfere with that x 300,000,000 (I allowed that there may be another 50,000,000 bleeders like you out there).


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## bio-chem (Jul 11, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> No it doesn't sound like you want to make it easy on these assholes.  You don't put the needs of society or the rights of the victims above your own perspective though.  Give that a whirl.  Think from the perspective of what Kelju or DOMS wants, then ask yourself if you have the right to let your personal beliefs to interfere with that x 300,000,000 (I allowed that there may be another 50,000,000 bleeders like you out there).



  your so generous. i love it


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## Plateau_Max (Jul 12, 2007)

BoneCrusher said:


> No it doesn't sound like you want to make it easy on these assholes.  You don't put the needs of society or the rights of the victims above your own perspective though.  Give that a whirl.  Think from the perspective of what Kelju or DOMS wants, then ask yourself if you have the right to let your personal beliefs to interfere with that x 300,000,000 (I allowed that there may be another 50,000,000 bleeders like you out there).



How am I not putting the needs of society and the victims above me?  My suggestion has the criminals giving to society with no return to themselves at all... not only that if I had a family member raped and brutally murdered you can bet your ass I would be whooping and cheering if the judge stood there and told him he's be spending the rest of his life doing hard labor in a shithole prison with no chance for appeal or parole.  

Just picturing a murderer having to swing a pick axe in 110 degree weather while a guard is waving a rifle in his face half the time yelling at him to hurry up... now that's punishment.

A bleeder?  Take a good look at what I'm saying.  The last person I actually give a shit about is the damn criminal.

You want the guy dead, so it would save money?  Make it quick?  I think it would be a great benefit to society to make him work.  Say he's got 65 years left to live, he works 16 hours 7 days a week for the entire 65... that's 379,600 hours of cheap as hell labor.  Now take that and multiply it by the number of inmates with sentences like that.  Let's not forget these assholes won't be able to do any harm to anyone every again also.  'Cept maybe each other but who cares about that?


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## Plateau_Max (Jul 12, 2007)

KelJu said:


> I also disagree with PM's metaphor. We aren't talking about a school yard fight. We are talking about the violent rape and assault of a poor woman and he child. These people should be killed to insure they they never do it again.



Oh for crying out loud I'm in no way saying that murder is like punching someone, you are all so busy whining about my choice of words that you're ignoring the message I was trying to get across completely.

Maybe I should have said two scorpions stinging each other, or two old ladies fighting over the last handicapped parking spot... IT'S A METAPHOR, the actual subjects I use as representation have no bearing, it's just meant to simplify what I'm saying to make a fucking point.

ONE GUY GETS SHOT, SO SOMEONE SHOOTS THE OTHER GUY... YOU KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE IN THE END??? TWO DEAD MOTHER FUCKERS


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## DOMS (Jul 12, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> ONE GUY GETS SHOT, SO SOMEONE SHOOTS THE OTHER GUY... YOU KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE IN THE END??? TWO DEAD MOTHER FUCKERS



I don't get it.  Did the first guy get killed or not? If he didn't, then who is the second dead guy that you speak of?  Is the second shooter supposed to be the government?

That's not a very good metaphor...


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## Plateau_Max (Jul 12, 2007)

See? who cares?  It's a metaphor, I'm using stand in subjects to make a point but you're sitting there wanting to know their names and crap... it doesn't matter who's who and how it happened the point I'm making is killing somone as revenge for them killing someone else... in the end all you've got is two dead people.

*Met A Phor*

1. a _*figure of speech*_ in which a word or phrase literally _*denoting one kind of object or idea*_ is _*used in place of another*_ to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly : _*figurative language*_

That's Meriam Webster's definition of metaphor.... course you'd probably look at the example of Drowning in Money and complain that you can't actually drown in it 'cause it's solid or some shit.


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## DOMS (Jul 12, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> See? who cares?  It's a metaphor, I'm using stand in subjects to make a point but you're sitting there wanting to know their names and crap... it doesn't matter who's who and how it happened the point I'm making is killing somone as revenge for them killing someone else... in the end all you've got is two dead people.



I think I've twisted your knickers.  I was just kidding, man.


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## Plateau_Max (Jul 12, 2007)

Don't make me fling peanut butter at you.  I have extra.


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## tucker01 (Jul 12, 2007)

So have we finally decided when we are going to start stringing up these fucks?


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## Little Wing (Jul 12, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> See? who cares?  It's a metaphor, I'm using stand in subjects to make a point but you're sitting there wanting to know their names and crap... it doesn't matter who's who and how it happened the point I'm making is killing somone as revenge for them killing someone else... in the end all you've got is two dead people.



some of us believe if you don't get rid of the first guy there will more dead than two. 

you think locking them up neutralizes the risk to society?





tell the family of this prison gaurd that. 

... Her uniform was ripped and there was a dark colored cord wrapped tightly around her neck. She had severe cutting injuries on her nose, lips and eyelids. Her nipples appeared to have been either cut or bitten off and there were some strange bruises on her cheek and neck...



All about Lemuel Smith's murder of Donna Payant, prison officer, by Mark Gado



murderers kill in prisons too.


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## bio-chem (Jul 12, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> So have we finally decided when we are going to start stringing up these fucks?



we have decided to let little wing be the leader and decide the details. she is the only one sane enough to ensure we dont go overboard with our vigilante conspiracy


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## Little Wing (Jul 12, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> we have decided to let little wing be the leader and decide the details. she is the only one sane enough to ensure we dont go overboard with our vigilante conspiracy



the first politician that pushes for this kind of legal system reform is going to have a lot of very bad people wanting him or her dead. 

the guy that urinated on his son would have about fifty years scrubbing shit off walls and mopping up piss in a prison for the criminally insane. and for the first two months of it he'd sleep chained in a  standing position in a closet.


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## DOMS (Jul 12, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> some of us believe if you don't get rid of the first guy there will more dead than two.
> 
> you think locking them up neutralizes the risk to society?
> 
> ...



Hey, if we can't get the criminals into their homes, maybe we can get the bleeding hearts to be the prison guards?  I'd be okay with that.


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## KelJu (Jul 12, 2007)

DOMS said:


> Hey, if we can't get the criminals into their homes, maybe we can get the bleeding hearts to be the prison guards?  I'd be okay with that.



No! There will be no compromise here. The criminals are going to live in their homes, period.


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## bio-chem (Jul 12, 2007)

maybe kelju should lead us after all


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## DOMS (Jul 12, 2007)

I guess I'm too soft.


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## bio-chem (Jul 12, 2007)

DOMS said:


> I guess I'm too soft.



they make medication for that now


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## Plateau_Max (Jul 12, 2007)

Prison Guards accept the risk that comes with the job just like I accept the risk every time they send me to the middle east.

Better physical profiling of the guards would have helped with that too.  In my labor hell prison I'd want jacked up 300lb bouncer type guys as the guards.  Maybe a small supply of PCP to them, waivered as legal just to them.  Let's see a crazy criminal idiot try to bite the nipples off a 300lb human gorilla on PCP.


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## DOMS (Jul 12, 2007)

bio-chem said:


> they make medication for that now



Yeah, it's call Fuckitall.  I'm already taking it.


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## bio-chem (Jul 12, 2007)

then soon you too will be ready to lead this band of hooligans and miscreants


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## DOMS (Jul 12, 2007)

Okay, but you'll need to explain to me how a hard cock fits into all of this.


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## bio-chem (Jul 12, 2007)

hey, if i understood that i would be leading


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## Plateau_Max (Jul 12, 2007)

> explain to me how a hard cock fits into all of this



Now isn't that just the question of questions right there...


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## DOMS (Jul 12, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> Now isn't that just the question of questions right there...


Will you teach me?


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## Plateau_Max (Jul 12, 2007)

Mine fits into my girlfriend that's all I care about.


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## DOMS (Jul 12, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> Mine fits into my girlfriend that's all I care about.



Okay, I'll give that a try.


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## tucker01 (Jul 12, 2007)

DOMS said:


> Okay, I'll give that a try.



I'm next.


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## Burner02 (Jul 12, 2007)

DOMS said:


> Will you teach me?


rumor has it...John H. will be happy to...


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## DOMS (Jul 12, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> I'm next.



I thought that I had to give her back to Plateau_Max?


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## Burner02 (Jul 12, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> Don't make me fling peanut butter at you. I have extra.


so..are you at McConnell? (sp)
AF? What do you do?


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## tucker01 (Jul 12, 2007)

DOMS said:


> I thought that I had to give her back to Plateau_Max?



I don't remember reading that.  I will be quick.


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## Little Wing (Jul 13, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> Prison Guards accept the risk that comes with the job just like I accept the risk every time they send me to the middle east.
> 
> Better physical profiling of the guards would have helped with that too.  In my labor hell prison I'd want jacked up 300lb bouncer type guys as the guards.  Maybe a small supply of PCP to them, waivered as legal just to them.  Let's see a crazy criminal idiot try to bite the nipples off a 300lb human gorilla on PCP.




it makes absolutely _no_ sense to be so willing to accept her death as well she made an informed choice when she selected to be a guard, she knew she may die as a result of her choice so eh that's ok, then turn around and *not* accept that a murder made an informed choice that he or she could forfeit their life if they commit murder. no sense whatsoever. 

nor does it make any sense that you feel your solution is much more severe than death but it would bother you less that innocent people could endure the rest of their lives suffering at one of your prisons. this person may be innocent so death is unacceptable.... but a fate worse than death would be better.


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## DOMS (Jul 13, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> it makes absolutely _no_ sense to be so willing to accept her death as well she made an informed choice when she selected to be a guard, she knew she may die as a result of her choice so eh that's ok, then turn around and *not* accept that a murder made an informed choice that he or she could forfeit their life if they commit murder. no sense whatsoever.






Well said, Little Wing!

When you make statements, or take actions, that aren't based a real-world reason, you end up looking like an ass.

Case in point: All the fuck-heads that showed up, and started _literally crying_, for Tookie.


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## KelJu (Jul 13, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> Prison Guards accept the risk that comes with the job just like I accept the risk every time they send me to the middle east.



I agree that her job position is not relevant. Lets not confuse ourselves. This situation isn't about a prison guard being killed by inmates. This is about an innocent *woman* being brutally tortured, raped, and murdered by inmates. Our prisons do not reform. Our prisons turn criminals into more dangerous criminals. 



Plateau_Max said:


> Better physical profiling of the guards would have helped with that too.  In my labor hell prison I'd want jacked up 300lb bouncer type guys as the guards.  Maybe a small supply of PCP to them, waivered as legal just to them.  Let's see a crazy criminal idiot try to bite the nipples off a 300lb human gorilla on PCP.



How about we kill these psychotic fuckers rather than looking high and low for 300lb linebacker prison guards. I hate to tell you this dude, but prison jobs aren't exactly a dream job. They are underpaid, and under staffed as it is. They are probably happy to get who they can. 

Again, I am nto attacking you personally, I just don't think you have thought this through.


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## bio-chem (Jul 13, 2007)

KelJu said:


> I agree that her job position is not relevant. Lets not confuse ourselves. This situation isn't about a prison guard being killed by inmates. This is about an innocent *woman* being brutally tortured, raped, and murdered by inmates. Our prisons do not reform. Our prisons turn criminals into more dangerous criminals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## juggernaut (Jul 13, 2007)

KelJu said:


> I agree that her job position is not relevant. Lets not confuse ourselves. This situation isn't about a prison guard being killed by inmates. This is about an innocent *woman* being brutally tortured, raped, and murdered by inmates. Our prisons do not reform. Our prisons turn criminals into more dangerous criminals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HOLY SHIT, this sounds like teaching!


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## Plateau_Max (Jul 14, 2007)

Little Wing said:


> it makes absolutely _no_ sense to be so willing to accept her death as well she made an informed choice when she selected to be a guard, she knew she may die as a result of her choice so eh that's ok, then turn around and *not* accept that a murder made an informed choice that he or she could forfeit their life if they commit murder. no sense whatsoever.
> 
> nor does it make any sense that you feel your solution is much more severe than death but it would bother you less that innocent people could endure the rest of their lives suffering at one of your prisons. this person may be innocent so death is unacceptable.... but a fate worse than death would be better.



I never embraced the subject of possibly imprisoning the innocent, that's just a result of misjudgement in the first place.  I'm talking about the guilty and KNOWINGLY guilty just like you're talking about when you say oh just put a bullet in him right then and there.  You're saying you don't like my idea of a life of torture because someone may be innocent?  How does that bode for your idea of the 10 cent bullet behind the courthouse senario?

Let's get this straight AGAIN even though I've tried to beat it your heads this whole time.  I don't like these criminals any more than you do.  I'm just trying to have a solution that does something beneficial for the economy.

Alright now the forfeiture of life thing.  When someone commits murder I really doubt in the back of their minds they are thinking "well if I do this I could be sentenced to death but it's worth it so I'll kill them anyway" NO, they are just murderers committing crimes of passion or necessity.  When someone signs up for a job as a prison guard unless they're totally inept they know their whole job revolves around trying to maintain and control a facility that harbors the scum of the earth a lot of which would gladly kill them when given the chance.

Believe me, I'm thinking this through.  And also if you're a guard and the system fails and it's between you and the inmate... and the inmate can overtake you effortlessly, then you're not qualified for the job.


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## Little Wing (Jul 16, 2007)

Plateau_Max said:


> I never embraced the subject of possibly imprisoning the innocent, that's just a result of misjudgement in the first place.  I'm talking about the guilty and KNOWINGLY guilty just like you're talking about when you say oh just put a bullet in him right then and there.  You're saying you don't like my idea of a life of torture because someone may be innocent?  How does that bode for your idea of the 10 cent bullet behind the courthouse senario?
> 
> Let's get this straight AGAIN even though I've tried to beat it your heads this whole time.  I don't like these criminals any more than you do.  I'm just trying to have a solution that does something beneficial for the economy.
> 
> ...



on one hand it would be a good idea to go fishing with you because if the boat sprang a leak you'd bail like a motherfucker to try n keep it from sinking.....

but on the other hand i'd have to question whether you were nuts or not when you were so intent on keeping a sinking boat afloat you ignored a sound boat right along side the sinking one ... bail on.


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## Burner02 (Jul 25, 2007)

Home invasion deaths ruled homicides - CNN.com

the two who did this....need to meet their maker in a bad way...


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## Will Brink (Jul 28, 2007)

min0 lee said:


> A dull knife across their necks would do just dandy.



Might be exactly what happens to them when they get to prison, which has its own "justice system"


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