# My log of 'RESULTS' from At Large Nutrition



## lucifuge (Apr 30, 2008)

Hello folks, 
I've been picked to test and log a product by board sponsor, At Large Nutrition. I chose the product RESULTS. (cuz well, we all want results right?)
At Large Nutrition - Results - High Performance Creatine Monohydrate su
But, lame attempts at snappy banter aside, I started taking this product tonight. So far, all I can say is that it was quite tasty.

My other supplements are as follows:
Precision Engineered Whey
Meijer Men's Formula Multi Vitamin
CMI Red Cell pro (nitric oxide & aminos)
Rexall Fishoil Caps
USP Labs Supercissus RX

I weighed in at 217 lbs and 19.25% bodyfat this morning
( I use a digital bf caliper, and I perform 3 tests and average the results)

Took some cold measurements as well:
(for reference only)

upper arms: 17"
forearms:   13 1/4"
chest : @ 43 1/2" (hard to measure your own chest)
waist: 36"
quads: 25 1/2" 
calves: 15 3/4"

training: 
(taken directly from my journal) 
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/online-journals/86197-s-d-m-f.html

4/29/08

Deads:
155 x 5
225 x 8
275 x 8
295 x 8

Squats:
225 x 8
245 x 8
265 x 6

SLDL:
95 x 10
145 x 10
145 x 9

Leg Curls:
50 x 12
75 x 9
75 x 7

Actually felt pretty nauseous by the time I got to the leg curls. I may have taken the 'Results' a little too close to training time, I felt a little bloated throughout the workout.

All in all, a satisfactory session. I'll pick up calf raises later in the week.


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## thewicked (Apr 30, 2008)

you will absolutley LOVE this stuff. I've never been a creatine or creatine blended fan until I gave ALN's Results a LEGIT shot.. in two weeks as advertised I started noticing a difference. I love it so much now that I'll take it until it's no longer being made!

the nausea happens when you hit it hard and have anything in your stomach before your workouts in general.  Hell even drinking gatorade makes me nauseous.  I've just started taking my results in the morning with my Nitrean shakes and still feel the same in training.

what flavor did you get? Orange blast is damn tasty..but i'm in LOVE with cherry blast! 

Stick with it luci..trust me...out of all of us lifters that take it...not one of us has wanted to stop using it.


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## workingatit43 (Apr 30, 2008)

I will be following


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## lucifuge (Apr 30, 2008)

thewicked said:


> you will absolutley LOVE this stuff. I've never been a creatine or creatine blended fan until I gave ALN's Results a LEGIT shot.. in two weeks as advertised I started noticing a difference. I love it so much now that I'll take it until it's no longer being made!
> 
> the nausea happens when you hit it hard and have anything in your stomach before your workouts in general.  Hell even drinking gatorade makes me nauseous.  I've just started taking my results in the morning with my Nitrean shakes and still feel the same in training.
> 
> ...


I hear ya about the nausea, normally doesn't hit me too bad.
I got the Cherry Blast, and it is pretty damned tasty.


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## lucifuge (Apr 30, 2008)

workingatit43 said:


> I will be following



welcome bro


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## Irons77 (Apr 30, 2008)

I'm in


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## chris mason (Apr 30, 2008)

Awesome!  

As Wicked said, it is more important to use it daily than the actual timing of use.  You can take it with a meal if you prefer.

Oh, and it takes about 10 days to fully kick-in for most.  At that point you should be hitting PRs left and right!

Chris


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## lucifuge (May 1, 2008)

4/30/08
*Day 2*Nothing new to report, I took my serving of RESULTS	 about an hour and a half before training and did not have any nausea, so I think that's gonna be my target now.
Training went well, nothing spectacular, but a good session:

*Chest & Tri's:
Low Incline Bench:*
135 x 10
225 x 10
245 x 8, 8, 5
*Low Incline DB Press*:
60's x 10, 10, 9
*Skull Crushers*:
85 x 10, 9, 6 1/2    (heh, failure)
*Press Downs*:
80 x 8, 8, 7
*Crunches:*25, 15

5/1/08
*Day 3 *
No weights tonight! I'll be taking my RESULTS as directed.
I feel good, just a little more run down than usual. I haven't gotten much sleep so far this week and as a result I'm really looking forward to not training tonight! LOL


chris mason said:


> Awesome!
> 
> As Wicked said, it is more important to use it daily than the actual timing of use.  You can take it with a meal if you prefer.
> 
> ...



I'm looking forward to the 'kick in' (for lack of a better term).
Stronger is always good... hopefully some size will come along with it !


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## workingatit43 (May 1, 2008)

lucifuge said:


> 4/30/08
> *Day 2*Nothing new to report, I took my serving of RESULTS	 about an hour and a half before training and did not have any nausea, so I think that's gonna be my target now.
> Training went well, nothing spectacular, but a good session:
> 
> ...



Nice workout bro


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## lucifuge (May 1, 2008)

workingatit43 said:


> Nice workout bro


thank you kind sir!


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## tomuchgear (May 1, 2008)

sounds like things are going well.


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## lucifuge (May 2, 2008)

*Day 4*
5/2/08
Howdy folks.
Checking in , nothing to report yet.
The only thing 'different' is that muscle soreness seems to be lasting an inordinate amount of time. My legs and chest are still sore from this weeks previous workouts. Nothing too terrible, just noticeable. I only mention it because I normally only feel sore for a day, if I get sore at all anymore. Anyway, moving right along...
A nice torture session tonight.

*Chins*:
8, 8, 8

*Wide Grip Pulldowns*:
80 x 10
180 x 4, 5, 5, 4

*Neutral Grip Pulldowns*:
80 x 15
_(drop)_
65 x 15
_(drop)_
50 x 15

*Stiff Arm Pulldowns*:
50 x 12
55 x 10
60 x 8

*EZ Bar Curls:*
85 x 9
95 x 6 _(neg)_
95 x 5 _(neg)_

*Single Arm Preachers*:
40's x 5, 5, 5 
_(drop)_
30's x 5
_(drop)_
20's x 7
_(drop)_
15's x 8
*-ouch-*


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## lucifuge (May 2, 2008)

workingatit43 said:


> Nice workout bro


Thanks man



tomuchgear said:


> sounds like things are going well.


So far so good!


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## chris mason (May 3, 2008)

lucifuge said:


> *Day 4*
> 5/2/08
> Howdy folks.
> Checking in , nothing to report yet.
> ...


 

My guess is that the soreness is from the extra push the product gives you in the gym.  As I mentioned, some of the ingredients take a bit longer to kick-in.  When that occurs you should also notice improved recovery.


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## thewicked (May 3, 2008)

yeah chris is right..it takes about two weeks or a little longer to get it kicked in but once it gets kicked it it's AWESOME! Might check into ETS from ALN too.. I take both..and the soreness for me only lasts into the next day and that's IF I have a BRUTAL workout the day before. I don't feel anything from my typical workouts now soreness wise.. even when i ramp the weights up. Keep this log up! You're kickin some ass in here luci!


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## lucifuge (May 3, 2008)

*Day 5*
5/4/08

*Shoulders*

*Standing Military Press*:
95 x 12
135 x 10
155 x 8, 8, 6

*Seated Dumbell Military*:
60's x 10, 9, 6

*Rear Laterals*:
30's x 8, 9, 8

*Side Laterals*:
30's x 8, 8, 8

*Smith Machine Shrugs*:
225 x 8, 8, 8

Good Times!
Well, that it for my routine. This should make a pretty good baseline for the rest of the log. I'm not posting anymore workouts in this thread, unless progress (PR)  is made of course.
I'll still be posting in my journal, 
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/online-journals/86197-s-d-m-f.html
if anyone's interested.

So far, I am really enjoying the product.
I still can't believe it tastes as good as it does.
You almost forget it's a supplement.


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## lucifuge (May 3, 2008)

chris mason said:


> My guess is that the soreness is from the extra push the product gives you in the gym.  As I mentioned, some of the ingredients take a bit longer to kick-in.  When that occurs you should also notice improved recovery.





thewicked said:


> yeah chris is right..it takes about two weeks or a little longer to get it kicked in but once it gets kicked it it's AWESOME! Might check into ETS from ALN too.. I take both..and the soreness for me only lasts into the next day and that's IF I have a BRUTAL workout the day before. I don't feel anything from my typical workouts now soreness wise.. even when i ramp the weights up. Keep this log up! You're kickin some ass in here luci!




yeah, the soreness faded. Like I said, it wasn't anything terrible, just enough that you know it's there. It's fine by me, I'm one of those sick individuals that _likes_ the feeling 

I'm glad someone likes the log, I'll continue to post workouts in here if ya want, just let me know.
But, I gotta go, my wife wants to watch some movie....


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## workingatit43 (May 3, 2008)

Nice workout and I like sick and twisted people


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## lucifuge (May 5, 2008)

*Day 6*
rest day, heh,almost forgot to take the 'Results"



*Day 7*

5/5/08
*legs
Deads:*
225 x 5
275 x 5
295 x 5
315 x 5
320 x 5 *PR*
*Squats:*
225 x 8
265 x 7
265 x 7
*SLDL*:
135 x 10
185 x 8
205 x 7
thanks to some friendly advice by thewicked, I'm pushing a little harder on hams now...
*Leg Curls*:
90 x 8
135 x 2 (hmmm, got a little too ambitious here)
115 x 4
*Smith Calf Raises*:
225 x 12
245 x 21
265 x 8
All I can say is, damn, great session.

*S.D.M.F.*


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## lucifuge (May 7, 2008)

*Day 7*
5/6/08
This may be a bit premature, but I'm gonna go on record as saying that "Results" kicks ass.
My numbers went up again last night, significantly on the inclines.
*Low Incline Press*:
225 x 5
235 x 5
245 x 5
255 x 5  * PR*
265 x 4   *PR* 
_yeah, that's 2 back to back pr's_

*Low Incline DB Press*:
60's x 10, 10, 10
_increase in reps_

*Skull Crushers*:
85 x 10
95 x 8
95 x 7
_increase in weight_

*Rope Pressdowns*:
60 x 12
80 x 12, 10

Overall, a VERY good session.
The best part was that the tank stayed full throughout the whole workout.
Now, I get up at about 7 am everyday, play with my daughter all day while my wife gets some sleep (she works midnights) then I go to work from 3-11 pm. After I get home from work my babysitter stays for an extra hour so I can train. What's the point of this little story? Simple, normally by the time I finish my 3rd exercise I'm about whipped and ready for bed. However, that was not the case over the last two training sessions.


*Day 8*
5/7/08
no weights tonight. WooHoo!


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## katt (May 7, 2008)

Nice!!  I'm looking forward to starting my thread on the freebie I received!!

Looks like the Results is workin' for ya!


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## lucifuge (May 7, 2008)

katt said:


> Nice!!  I'm looking forward to starting my thread on the freebie I received!!
> 
> Looks like the Results is workin' for ya!



I gotta admit, I'm diggin this stuff.
When you starting your log?


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## katt (May 7, 2008)

I have a couple things going on in the next couple days, so my first day will be Monday..  I'm taking Nitor  At Large Nutrition - Nitor - The Ultimate Fat Burner  because I'm cutting..

I'm excited to try it!!


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## workingatit43 (May 7, 2008)

This is a very good and detailed log bro


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## the other half (May 7, 2008)

great "pr's". you werent just holdin out on us, were you?

 i should try some new supps when we get back from our vacation in june. is there one that will give me big calves like yours?


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## lucifuge (May 7, 2008)

katt said:


> I have a couple things going on in the next couple days, so my first day will be Monday..  I'm taking Nitor  At Large Nutrition - Nitor - The Ultimate Fat Burner  because I'm cutting..
> 
> I'm excited to try it!!


sounds cool, I'll be following...



workingatit43 said:


> This is a very good and detailed log bro


I'm trying man, never logged a supp before so I'm trying to be as detailed as possible. Thanks, glad you like it!


the other half said:


> great "pr's". you werent just holdin out on us, were you?
> 
> i should try some new supps when we get back from our vacation in june. is there one that will give me big calves like yours?


I wish I'd been holding out!
Seriously, my biggest bench ever was 305 for 2 about 4 years ago, but it was flat bench with completely shitty form and on a smith machine, so as far as I'm concerned it never happened. These are the good old solid free weight in the power cage!
And big calves? Surely you've mistaken me for someone else!


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## chris mason (May 7, 2008)

Awesome stuff Lucifuge!  

RESULTS is the real deal!  I use it every day and have done so for about 4 months.  I am the biggest and strongest I have ever been.

A lot of members here may not recognize the names, but Chuck Vogelpohl and Donnie Thompson both use and LOVE the stuff.  Donnie has the highest total ever at 2850 lbs and Chuck is simply the baddest lifter on the planet.  Here are a couple of videos of them:






YouTube Video











IronScene - Powerlifting Videos   Donnie Thompson 805 x 3 Raw Squat

Good enough for them, good enough for you!


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## soxmuscle (May 7, 2008)

Maybe you can answer this for me, Chris.

What makes RESULTS that much better than other creatines such as Cell Mass or SizeOn for isntance?


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## chris mason (May 8, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> Maybe you can answer this for me, Chris.
> 
> What makes RESULTS that much better than other creatines such as Cell Mass or SizeOn for isntance?


 
The ingredients and their dosing.  None of the products you mentioned contain creatine, beta alanine, and HMB.  RESULTS does, plus dextrose to drive the creatine delivery.  Each of the ingredients in RESULTS is included at lab proven levels which is another big difference between it and many other products.  We also don't confuse the label, you can cleary see exactly what is in our product and at what dose.

Chris


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## lucifuge (May 9, 2008)

*Day 9
5/8/08
Neutral Grip Chins:*
BW x 8, 8, 6
*Rack Pulls*:
245 x 5
275 x 5
315 x 5
325 x 4  *PR*
*Bent Over Rows*:
155  10
165 x 10, 10   PR
*Dumbell Rows:*
70's x 8, 8, 8
*Standing Barbell Curls*:
95 x 6
100 x 5, 4
_(dropped down to 45 lbs for a set of 21's)_
*Hammer curls*:
40's x 7, 7, 7
_drop set_: 
30's x 4, 
25's x 4, 
20's x 4, 
15's x 4
Session went very well again.
I dunno if it's the dextrose or what, but I've started breaking out with acne like I was a sophmore in highschool. Very irritating.




chris mason said:


> The ingredients and their dosing.  None of the products you mentioned contain creatine, beta alanine, and HMB.  RESULTS does, plus dextrose to drive the creatine delivery.  Each of the ingredients in RESULTS is included at lab proven levels which is another big difference between it and many other products.  We also don't confuse the label, you can cleary see exactly what is in our product and at what dose.
> 
> Chris



Seriously?
That's it?
Nothing else sneaking around in this stuff?
I gotta be honest with ya Chris, if I wasn't the one actually experiencing this, I doubt I'd believe a word of it.
Admittedly I've never used HMB before, but I find it tough to attribute these results (pun not intended) to just that along with sugar, creatine, and b-ala....
I'm not complaining or anything, just curious.


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## chris mason (May 9, 2008)

lucifuge said:


> *Day 9*
> *5/8/08*
> *Neutral Grip Chins:*
> BW x 8, 8, 6
> ...


 
Lol, yep.  I have always made it a point to make our products as transparent as possible.  Most of the other products you see come up with gimmicky names for a bunch of low dosed ingredients thrown together.  Each of those ingredient has been proven in the lab to increase lean muscle and strength.  When combined, they work synergistically.


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## lucifuge (May 10, 2008)

*Day 10*
5/9/08
*Off Day*

*Day 11*
5/10/08
*Shoulders:
Standing Military Press*:
105 x 8
145 x 6
165 x 6
175 x 5, 4  *PR on reps*
*Seated Dumbell Press*:
70's x 10, 9, 7
*Rear Laterals*:
30's x 10, 10, 10
*Side Laterals*: 
30's x 10, 10, 10
*Barbell Shrugs*:
235 x 10, 10, 10


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## chris mason (May 11, 2008)

Good job on the military press!


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## lucifuge (May 13, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Good job on the military press!



Thanks!
I hope to be able to put up 200 lbs by the end of the year.... don't really know if it's possible, but that's the plan.



*Day 11*
off day

*Day 12
5/12/08*

Not alot of time tonight, so I just stuck with the big three.

*Deads*:
225 x 8
295 x 8
345 x 3     *PR *

*Squats*:
275 x 3, 3, 3

*SLDL*:
225 x 5
235 x 5
245 x 5  *PR*  _one of the most intimidating lifts I've ever done_

All in all, a good time.
I was _really_ tempted to try for some singles on deads, but decided against it.


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## katt (May 13, 2008)

Wow... after looking at all your PR's, I'm seriously going to have to try this.!


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## chris mason (May 13, 2008)

As we say, give it 10 days and PR city!


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## lucifuge (May 13, 2008)

katt said:


> Wow... after looking at all your PR's, I'm seriously going to have to try this.!





chris mason said:


> As we say, give it 10 days and PR city!



I gotta admit, I'm impressed as hell with this stuff.
I went into this expecting it to essentially be 'cell-tech', or something like that, but this stuff's great.
I think it's safe to say you've got yourself a convert Chris.


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## lucifuge (May 13, 2008)

My only 'complaint' is the acne it seems to be causing.







That's just my neck... it's on my chest, shoulder's, and head as well.
I'm 34, and I've _never_ broken out like this, not even from pro-hormone/AAS use.
I figure it's gotta be the sugar ...


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## ZECH (May 13, 2008)

chris mason said:


> The ingredients and their dosing.  None of the products you mentioned contain creatine, beta alanine, and HMB.  RESULTS does, plus dextrose to drive the creatine delivery.  Each of the ingredients in RESULTS is included at lab proven levels which is another big difference between it and many other products.  We also don't confuse the label, you can cleary see exactly what is in our product and at what dose.
> 
> Chris


Chris, when you mention lab proven levels, do you have info that you could share on that? I would be interested in seeing that.


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## chris mason (May 13, 2008)

dg806 said:


> Chris, when you mention lab proven levels, do you have info that you could share on that? I would be interested in seeing that.


 
Well, yes and no.  I have a few studies which we paid for that I cannot publish.  I can give you a link to a free abstract:

Creatine and beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB...[Nutrition. 2001 Jul-Aug] - PubMed Result


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## chris mason (May 13, 2008)

lucifuge said:


> My only 'complaint' is the acne it seems to be causing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Yep, that is the only thing I can think of.

Ahhh well, a small price to pay for PRs baby!

Oh, and just an FYI for anyone reading this, the vast majority of its users will not get a breakout from said use.


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## nni (May 13, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Well, yes and no.  I have a few studies which we paid for that I cannot publish.  I can give you a link to a free abstract:
> 
> Creatine and beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB...[Nutrition. 2001 Jul-Aug] - PubMed Result



if you paid for a study why wouldnt it be published? also why use hmb instead of leucine?


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## the other half (May 13, 2008)

numbers keep going up, that awesome.

i  take tribulus and dhea, and i break out alot like that. but like chris said, its a small price to pay for added strenght and size.


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## Arnold (May 13, 2008)

nni said:


> also why use hmb instead of leucine?



how would that be the same?


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## nni (May 13, 2008)

Prince said:


> how would that be the same?



hmb is a metabolite of leucine, but history of hmb usage has been sketchy and cost prohibitive. most of the positive benefits can be gained with leucine at a much lower price and a more reasonable dose.


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## chris mason (May 13, 2008)

nni said:


> if you paid for a study why wouldnt it be published? also why use hmb instead of leucine?


 

No, you misunderstand, I paid for the study therefore I cannot provide a free link to it.  In order to read the study I had to pay for it.  

HMB is a leucine metabolite.  A metabolite and that from which is it derived do not necessarily produce the same effects.  In addition, there is the issue of quantity.


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## nni (May 13, 2008)

chris mason said:


> No, you misunderstand, I paid for the study therefore I cannot provide a free link to it.  In order to read the study I had to pay for it.
> 
> HMB is a leucine metabolite.  A metabolite and that from which is it derived do not necessarily produce the same effects.  In addition, there is the issue of quantity.



oh, sorry, was confused about the study part.


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## chris mason (May 13, 2008)

One other point, what makes RESULTS so effective is the viable dosing of Creapure(TM) creatine monohydrate, beta alanine, and HMB along with the dextrose to drive the creatine.  The big 3 ingredients work together to produce ADDITIVE effects.  This combination makes for a VERY effective supplement in terms of improving one's size and strength.  Try it for yourself, you will be GLAD you did.


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## chris mason (May 13, 2008)

nni said:


> oh, sorry, was confused about the study part.


 
No worries.

Chris


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## lucifuge (May 14, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Yep, that is the only thing I can think of.
> 
> Ahhh well, a small price to pay for PRs baby!
> 
> Oh, and just an FYI for anyone reading this, the vast majority of its users will not get a breakout from said use.






the other half said:


> numbers keep going up, that awesome.
> 
> i  take tribulus and dhea, and i break out alot like that. but like chris said, its a small price to pay for added strenght and size.



Yeah, that's been my opinion as well. It feels pretty awesome to be putting up numbers like these. The acne is little more than an inconvenience... even though a guy I work with asked if I was juicing again, lol.


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## ZECH (May 14, 2008)

chris mason said:


> No, you misunderstand, I paid for the study therefore I cannot provide a free link to it.  In order to read the study I had to pay for it.



Trying to understand............you paid to have access to a study done by someone else??


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## nni (May 14, 2008)

dg806 said:


> Trying to understand............you paid to have access to a study done by someone else??



some studies have to be bought to read.


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## chris mason (May 14, 2008)

dg806 said:


> Trying to understand............you paid to have access to a study done by someone else??


 
Right.  There was a study done on some of the ingredients I was considering for the product and it was not available online for free.  I had to purchase it.


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## lucifuge (May 14, 2008)

*Day 13
5/13/08*
unfortunately, no time for training today


*Day 14
5/14/08*

*Low Incline Bench*:
135 x 8
225 x 8
245 x 8
265 x 6, 3   _rep increase _

*Low Incline Dumbell Bench*:
70's x 9, 8, 8   

*Skull Crushers*:
95 x 8
100 x 8, 7  *PR*

*Rope Pressdowns*:
100 x 3  _technically another _*PR*, _but a bit ambitious. I barely got the 3 reps_
85 x 8, 8

*Crunches:*
20, 15, 14

Progress across the board tonight.
 *S.D.M.F.*


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## ZECH (May 15, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Right.  There was a study done on some of the ingredients I was considering for the product and it was not available online for free.  I had to purchase it.



Makes sense. Thanks


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## Built (May 15, 2008)

DG, I have a copy of the full study if you'd like to see it.

"Forty healthy male subjects 19 to 23 y old were enrolled into the study. All had been involved in prior exercise but none were highly trained. Potential subjects were excluded from the study if they had evidence or history of any disease, recent joint or bone injury, or obesity. Subjects also were excluded if they had participated in resistance-exercise programs in the previous 6 mo or had consumed HMB or CR in the previous 3 mo before the study"​

HMB appears to work well on untrained/detrained subjects, particularly with the addition of the known ergogens dextrose and creatine. 

On well-conditioned athletes, HMB's efficacy has not been established. However, with 80g of dextrose to spike insulin, my feeling is that previous creatine "non-responders" may be finally enjoying the benefits now that sufficient dextrose is driving it in - a clear gain due to this product. Not to mention the addition of over 300 calories.


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## nni (May 16, 2008)

Built said:


> DG, I have a copy of the full study if you'd like to see it.
> 
> "Forty healthy male subjects 19 to 23 y old were enrolled into the study. All had been involved in prior exercise but none were highly trained. Potential subjects were excluded from the study if they had evidence or history of any disease, recent joint or bone injury, or obesity. Subjects also were excluded if they had participated in resistance-exercise programs in the previous 6 mo or had consumed HMB or CR in the previous 3 mo before the study"​
> 
> ...



there is actually a study with well trained athletes, so the effects have been established.  not so good


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## Built (May 16, 2008)

Truly, the nature of scientific research is to assume the null, then look for ways to reject it. 

In the case of HMB supplementation in trained athletes, so far no study has been able to produce a result beyond placebo. Technically, this does not prove it has no effect in these individuals. It just doesn't demonstrate it. 

[/geek]


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## chris mason (May 16, 2008)

nni said:


> there is actually a study with well trained athletes, so the effects have been established.  not so good


 
There are also several studies (or reviews of studies) showing it to be effective.

Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) ...[Nutr Metab (Lond). 2008] - PubMed Result


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum


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## thewicked (May 16, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Yep, that is the only thing I can think of.
> 
> Ahhh well, a small price to pay for PRs baby!
> 
> Oh, and just an FYI for anyone reading this, the vast majority of its users will not get a breakout from said use.



yeah i was wondering if anyone has ever broken out from creatine use.. .i thought it was a myth to be honest but I guess not. I've never heard or seen something like that in person or other wise!

PANOXYL THAT SHIT! WORKS EVERYTIME FOR ME!


----------



## nni (May 16, 2008)

chris mason said:


> There are also several studies (or reviews of studies) showing it to be effective.
> 
> Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) ...[Nutr Metab (Lond). 2008] - PubMed Result
> 
> ...




other than the first study from 2001, nothing significant is there.

as for the pubmed game, i hate this game, but i will paly, for you. 

Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate on aer...[Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2007] - PubMed Result

Regarding body composition, there were no significant differences.

Effects of six weeks of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbu...[J Strength Cond Res. 2007] - PubMed Result

HMB and HMBCr were concluded to have no ergogenic effect on muscular strength and endurance, leg power, or anthropometry when taken orally by highly trained male athletes over 6 weeks.



hmb isnt new, i found it needs to be dosed above 10g to really see results, and at that point ill stick with leucine.


----------



## Built (May 16, 2008)

chris mason said:


> There are also several studies (or reviews of studies) showing it to be effective.
> 
> Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) ...[Nutr Metab (Lond). 2008] - PubMed Result
> 
> ...



Since you are recycling your assertions, I'll respond with a recycled argument from your own board:


chris mason said:


> Here is a bit more about HMB...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I read the first study you posted - the full version is available here: Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) on exercise performance and body composition across varying levels of age, sex, and training experience: A review

Interesting overview. The authors conclude:

_The first purpose of this paper was to provide an in depth and objective analysis of HMB research. While various studies analyzed in this manuscript support the efficacy of HMB as an effective ergogenic aid for athletes that decreases DOMS, markers of muscle damage, and body fat, while increasing various markers of performance, including LBM and strength in resistance trained athletes, and OBLA and VO2 peak in endurance trained athletes, a number of studies analyzed did not support the efficacy of HMB supplementation. The current authors suggest that these conflicting results may in part be attributed to the variability in humans, inadequate sample sizes, and methodological issues such as the specificity of testing conditions, cases of overtraining, elicitation of an inadequate training stimulus in experienced participants, limited dependent variables, and short duration experiments. Collectively, these results warrant further research on HMB supplementation while taking into account these various issues. Tables 1 and 2 summarize the results from the HMB literature.

Table 1
Studies Which Support the Efficacy of HMB supplementation in Varying Populations


Table 2
Studies Which do not Support the Efficacy of HMB Supplementation in Varying Populations

There is compelling evidence that HMB supplementation may be useful for clinical muscle wasting conditions including AIDS, cancer, bed-rest, and during periods of caloric deficits. HMB also appears to be safe, and may improve various markers of health, including blood pressure and LDL-cholesterol. When supplementing with HMB, current evidence suggests that 1 g of HMB should be consumed 3 times per day, for a total of 3 g of HMB daily (or 38 mg/kg of bodyweight). However, more studies are needed to determine the optimal dosage and frequency of HMB supplementation, and the overall efficacy of HMB supplementation as an ergogenic aid for athletes.

The second purpose of this paper was to provide an in depth analysis of possible mechanisms that HMB may exert its effects. Results from this review showed that HMB appears to primarily exert its effects through protective and anticatabolic mechanism. The prevailing explanation is the cholesterol synthesis hypothesis. However, recent studies have shown that HMB's anticatabolic effects are at least in part mediated by attenuation of the activation and increased gene expression of the ubiquitin-pathway. Furthermore, there is evidence that HMB may directly increase protein synthesis.​_
<shrug>

At least we know it's probably safe. 

I'd be interested to see how well a sugar-free version of results works. 80g of sugar is too rich for my budget.


----------



## chris mason (May 16, 2008)

nni said:


> other than the first study from 2001, nothing significant is there.
> 
> as for the pubmed game, i hate this game, but i will paly, for you.
> 
> ...


 

First, I am not playing a game?  I posted what I did to show an alternative to your opinion.

Next, you are entitled to your opinion, but that does not preclude the fact RESULTS works exceptionally well and HMB is an integral component in the product.  If I did not believe it was, I would remove it as it is relatively expensive and raises the price point of the product.  If I thought it ineffective I could remove it and sell the product for significantly less and *still make the same profit margin.  *I would be an idiot not to do that as more people will buy an effective product which costs less, no?  My business acumen is relatively ok.  

Finally, you do not have ANY study which looks at HMB in the context of RESULTS.  In other words, when it is combined with creatine and beta alanine.  It would be ignorant to assume that HMB would have the same effects independently as it does in the context I have referenced.


----------



## chris mason (May 16, 2008)

Built said:


> Since you are recycling your assertions, I'll respond with a recycled argument from your own board:
> 
> 
> I read the first study you posted - the full version is available here: Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) on exercise performance and body composition across varying levels of age, sex, and training experience: A review
> ...


 

Why would I not present the same evidence that I used to refute a similar criticism on our board?

There are studies for and against it.   Again, there are NO studies which look at it in the context in which it exists in RESULTS.  If you are truly of a scientific mind you should realize the relevance of that fact.

The bottom line is that Lucifuge, like the VAST majority of its users, is experiencing GREAT results using the product.  As I have said over and over again, there is a reason the lifters at Westside, the strongest powerlifter on the planet Donnie Thompson, and the baddest powerlifter on the planet Chuch Vogelpohl ALL request the product...  IT WORKS!!!

That's what its all about!


----------



## nni (May 16, 2008)

chris mason said:


> First, I am not playing a game?  I posted what I did to show an alternative to your opinion.
> 
> Next, you are entitled to your opinion, but that does not preclude the fact RESULTS works exceptionally well and HMB is an integral component in the product.  If I did not believe it was, I would remove it as it is relatively expensive and raises the price point of the product.  If I thought it ineffective I could remove it and sell the product for significantly less and *still make the same profit margin.  *I would be an idiot not to do that as more people will buy an effective product which costs less, no?  My business acumen is relatively ok.
> 
> Finally, you do not have ANY study which looks at HMB in the context of RESULTS.  In other words, when it is combined with creatine and beta alanine.  It would be ignorant to assume that HMB would have the same effects independently as it does in the context I have referenced.



the second study is with creatine, and through the mechanisms in which creatine, beta alanine and hmb work there really is no synergy. creatine is effective as is beta alanine, as are carbs.  there is synergy between carbs and creatine, but the others work on their own. point is if a study shows hmb doesnt work on its own, adding the above isnt going to change that imo. but, take out the hmb and half the carbs and results looks good to me, add in 7grams of eaa's and i would make it a staple.


----------



## Built (May 16, 2008)

Chris - I haven't said the product doesn't work - if you feel something from it and your clients like it, there may be something to it.

The facts are that the research is inconclusive at best, and that the product has a LOT of sugar for an ordinary lifter. For a 300-lb powerlifter, an assisted 6' tall male bodybuilder, or a skinny 19-year-old male on a bulk - perhaps not a problem. But for little old me,I'd need an insulin chaser!

I've asked before - others have as well: how about a sugar-free version?


----------



## lucifuge (May 16, 2008)

*Day 15 *
no sleep = no training

-----------------------------------

*Day 16*
5/16/08

*Pull Ups*:
BW x 8, 8, 8

*W.G. Pulldowns*:
85 x 20
185 x 5, 5, 5, 5  

*Reverse Grip Pull Downs*:
185 x 5
135 x 8, 8

*Dumbell Pullovers:*
70 x 10, 8, 8

*Preacher Curls:*
115 x 3   *PR* _wow, that's heavy. almost tipped my bench LOL!_85 x 8, 7  _much more manageable_

*Alt Dumbell Curls*:
30's x8, 8, 6
(drop)
25's x 6
(drop)
20's x 4


----------



## lucifuge (May 16, 2008)

Chris, nni, and built... no disrespect intended and pissing match aside, it really is a great product.
I'm already planning on ordering it again, however (in a nod to the opinions expressed by built and nni) I'll be cutting back to one scoop.


----------



## powerrack (May 17, 2008)

Yo Chris,

Just curious, why do you keep telling us about your sponsored athletes loving the product. That doesn't really mean shit. If I was sponsered by you, I'd love Results too. 

If you put me on the Atlarge payroll and allotment list, I'd probably grab some Results too. You know those guys aren't gonna say any bad shit about the product, they are sponsored athletes, why would they ruin their sponsership? You think Ronnie Coleman is gonna say any f'd up shit about NO Xplode? No! 

I know business is business, but to most of us that are not teenagers anymore, we don't get all gay over hearing the names of well known atheltes linked to products that are provided by their sponser.

I'm not saying it's not a decent product, I just think that bringing up the names of sponsered athletes every few threads is kinda gay, it doesn't really prove anything if they are using it or asking you for it.

BTW, I love Nitrean, one of my favorite products out there. Tastes great, mixes well. Love it! 

Peace


----------



## Travis Bell (May 17, 2008)

haha we are not on any payroll. Thats a good one though

We are offered supplements. If we don't like them, we don't take them. But don't say that we lie about our product reviews. Thats bullcrap. If I say I like a supplement, I like it. I can tell you I really like Results and will continue to keep using it.


----------



## chris mason (May 17, 2008)

nni said:


> the second study is with creatine, and through the mechanisms in which creatine, beta alanine and hmb work there really is no synergy. creatine is effective as is beta alanine, as are carbs. there is synergy between carbs and creatine, but the others work on their own. point is if a study shows hmb doesnt work on its own, adding the above isnt going to change that imo. but, take out the hmb and half the carbs and results looks good to me, add in 7grams of eaa's and i would make it a staple.


 
I want to say this nicely and to not have you lose face in the process.  I know you are both trying to educate and learn and I respect that.

First, whether or not HMB works by itself is something that is open to argument based upon various studies.  I feel that it does, but could agree to disagree on that point. Now, IF you were correct and it did not work by itself that in no way indicates what it would do in concert with other ingredients and to make assumptions about it, especially when they fly in the face of empirical evidence, is just poor science.

Chris


----------



## chris mason (May 17, 2008)

powerrack said:


> Yo Chris,
> 
> Just curious, why do you keep telling us about your sponsored athletes loving the product. That doesn't really mean shit. If I was sponsered by you, I'd love Results too.
> 
> ...


 
I understand your position.  You must understand it places me in a tough place.  Let me put it this way, I work with Chuck Vogelpohl and help him out with supplements.  Chuck tells me what he wants and I give it to him.  Chuck is the farthest thing from a company shill that there ever has been.  He would never say he liked something just to say he liked it.  In fact, he doesn't say much at all.  I work with him because he is one of the baddest powerlifters on the planet and I feel he has earned it.  

Chuck tells me what he wants when we wants it.  If I have something new I ask him to try it.  If he feels it works he asks for more, if not, he doesn't.  Chuck likes RESULTS and consistently asks for it.  It is that simple.  He is not on any kind of a payroll.  He has no reason to ask for something if he does not like it.  

Now, if one of the strongest men on the planet likes my product and ASKS for it, why would I not want to let people know that?


----------



## chris mason (May 17, 2008)

Built said:


> Chris - I haven't said the product doesn't work - if you feel something from it and your clients like it, there may be something to it.
> 
> The facts are that the research is inconclusive at best, and that the product has a LOT of sugar for an ordinary lifter. For a 300-lb powerlifter, an assisted 6' tall male bodybuilder, or a skinny 19-year-old male on a bulk - perhaps not a problem. But for little old me,I'd need an insulin chaser!
> 
> I've asked before - others have as well: how about a sugar-free version?


 
No, the FACT is the product works extremely well as is evidenced by this log and that of nearly all of its users.  Your comment about a 300 lbs powerlifter is really poor form.


----------



## chris mason (May 17, 2008)

lucifuge said:


> Chris, nni, and built... no disrespect intended and pissing match aside, it really is a great product.
> I'm already planning on ordering it again, however (in a nod to the opinions expressed by built and nni) I'll be cutting back to one scoop.


 
It is, and thank you!


----------



## ZECH (May 17, 2008)

chris mason said:


> As I have said over and over again, there is a reason the lifters at Westside, the strongest powerlifter on the planet Donnie Thompson, and the baddest powerlifter on the planet Chuch Vogelpohl ALL request the product...  IT WORKS!!!



Chris, I say this with much respect and I don't want to get in a pissing match saying that it does or does not work. I'm sure it does to some degree. But if these guys you mention are world class atheletes, then I've never seen any that are not on something stronger (gear). So how can you relate their success with your product? I think if you are honest, you have to say that it's not related. But again, that's not saying your product doesn't work. I just want to compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges.


----------



## chris mason (May 17, 2008)

dg806 said:


> Chris, I say this with much respect and I don't want to get in a pissing match saying that it does or does not work. I'm sure it does to some degree. But if these guys you mention are world class atheletes, then I've never seen any that are not on something stronger (gear). So how can you relate their success with your product? I think if you are honest, you have to say that it's not related. But again, that's not saying your product doesn't work. I just want to compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges.


 

I understand.  Let me put it this way, I will not comment about whether or not said individuals use anabolics.  That would be for them.  That said, even if they did, if they change nothing else about their drug and training regimen and add a supplement and see significant benefits from said supplement then it stands to reason said supplement was effective for them.  That makes sense, no?  

I know you do not know me from Sam, but I am not like so many other supplement company owners who will attibute an athlete's success to my products.  Chuck was the best prior to ever using my products.  That said, if he feels they help his training I think it would be stupid of me not to point that out.  In addition, if he asks for the product for no reason other than he feels it works I think that is a great endorsement of the product and want to share it.


----------



## nni (May 17, 2008)

lucifuge said:


> Chris, nni, and built... no disrespect intended and pissing match aside, it really is a great product.
> I'm already planning on ordering it again, however (in a nod to the opinions expressed by built and nni) I'll be cutting back to one scoop.



yeah, sorry to clutter up your thread, ill bow out and not clutter it up anymore. 



chris mason said:


> I want to say this nicely and to not have you lose face in the process.  I know you are both trying to educate and learn and I respect that.
> 
> First, whether or not HMB works by itself is something that is open to argument based upon various studies.  I feel that it does, but could agree to disagree on that point. Now, IF you were correct and it did not work by itself that in no way indicates what it would do in concert with other ingredients and to make assumptions about it, especially when they fly in the face of empirical evidence, is just poor science.
> 
> Chris




im not worried about losing face, and feel confident in what i have offered. hmb is not new, it is not a giant mystery to understand how it works, and the other ingredients are not new. they work on their own towards a common goal, but no research has shown that creatine enhances BA, or ba enhances hmb etc. by no means do i expect you to agree, that would be foolish. i just wanted to chime in and did, and expressed my feelings over the product, now for the sake of the person whose thread this is, ill stop posting, but by no means does that change anything i said.


----------



## Built (May 17, 2008)

Built said:


> Chris - I haven't said the product doesn't work - if you feel something from it and your clients like it, there may be something to it.
> 
> The facts are that the research is inconclusive at best, and that the product has a LOT of sugar for an ordinary lifter. For a 300-lb powerlifter, an assisted 6' tall male bodybuilder, or a skinny 19-year-old male on a bulk - perhaps not a problem. But for little old me,I'd need an insulin chaser!
> 
> I've asked before - others have as well: how about a sugar-free version?





chris mason said:


> No, the FACT is the product works extremely well as is evidenced by this log and that of nearly all of its users.  Your comment about a 300 lbs powerlifter is really poor form.



Did that not come out how I intended? Sorry about that. 
My point was that a 300-lb powerlifter can handle 80g of sugar all at once. Those fellas have WAY more muscle than I have. 

My measly 114 lbs of middle-aged female lean mass can't handle that much. That's why I'm interested in a sugar-free version.


----------



## chris mason (May 17, 2008)

nni said:


> yeah, sorry to clutter up your thread, ill bow out and not clutter it up anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Ok, fair enough.  We can agree to disagree.


----------



## soxmuscle (May 17, 2008)

So basically, 

through the studies that nni and built brought about in this thread, the BA and HMB are useless and monohydrate is an inferior creatine compared to other types?


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 17, 2008)

Nearly all power lifters who compete at a high level usually use gear.  So somehow they're magically attributing PR's in the gym due to an over the counter supplement that doesn't have a single conclusive study behind the main ingredient...  Does this fool anyone over the age of 12?


----------



## lucifuge (May 17, 2008)

nni said:


> yeah, sorry to clutter up your thread, ill bow out and not clutter it up anymore.




nonsense, you're not cluttering anything. I value your opinions






TexanTA1996 said:


> Nearly all power lifters who compete at a high level usually use gear.  So somehow they're magically attributing PR's in the gym due to an over the counter supplement that doesn't have a single conclusive study behind the main ingredient...  Does this fool anyone over the age of 12?




I don't know about 'fooling' anyone. I am simply recording information here.


----------



## Built (May 17, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> So basically,
> 
> through the studies that nni and built brought about in this thread, the BA and HMB are useless and monohydrate is an inferior creatine compared to other types?



Creatine monohydrate is tried and true, and the only kind I ever use. Cheap and proven effective. 

BA appears to have some positive attributes, but I honestly don't know enough about it. 

HMB appears to have some utility under certain circumstances that have been tested under controlled conditions. Other carefully controlled studies have failed to demonstrate an effect. 

Something to be careful with here is that even if a study fails to demonstrate an effect, this is not proof that it does not have any.

Neither is it true that an individual self-selecting to try a substance and reporting a positive result is proof of efficacy.

The short answer with regard to HMB supplementation in healthy adult athletes is "we don't know". What we DO know is that HMB may be beneficial to people who are recovering from wasting disease, and that it is not dangerous in the dosing suggested in Results.  

And I am still interested in a sugar-free product.


----------



## soxmuscle (May 17, 2008)

Creatine Monohydrate, while tried and true, is no longer the best available creatine option IMO.

Even with a sugar free supplement, why pay top dollar for a mediocre supplement?

Gaspari Nutrition's SizeOn is cheaper and better for instance.


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 17, 2008)

chris mason said:


> If I thought it ineffective I could remove it and sell the product for significantly less and *still make the same profit margin.  *I would be an idiot not to do that as more people will buy an effective product which costs less, no?  My business acumen is relatively ok.



Not quite.  There are a ton of creatine/dextrose supplements out there that use a combination of these two well known supplements.  While your product costs more, it has a certain edge that all those other products don't have-the HMB and Beta.  While you still maintain the same _profit margin_, you sell more total units-which leads to an overall increase in _profit_.

Nobody would buy your product if it was creatine, dextrose and Beta-because all of those products can be bought dirt cheap, and *the overhead costs you would incur from combining them into your mixture wouldn't allow you to sell very much volume-because your costs would increase to the point where it would be stupid to pay for your product because you'd have to charge a higher than normal cost for otherwise dirt cheap products.* 

Adding the HMB allows you to differentiate your product from others, and at the same time still charge a higher price than the separate ingredients purchased on their own.


----------



## nni (May 17, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> So basically,
> 
> through the studies that nni and built brought about in this thread, the BA and HMB are useless and monohydrate is an inferior creatine compared to other types?



no, not at all. BA is very good, as is creatine mono. HMB is what i question.



soxmuscle said:


> Creatine Monohydrate, while tried and true, is no longer the best available creatine option IMO.
> 
> Even with a sugar free supplement, why pay top dollar for a mediocre supplement?
> 
> Gaspari Nutrition's SizeOn is cheaper and better for instance.



sizeon is not mono, and has a lot more to it than carbs and creatine. creatine gluconate isnt necessarily superior to mono at all. thing is that mono is really the only creatine that is studied, all the other forms are just theory, and sexier to sell. this doesnt mean they dont work, studies exist, just none in comparison, so it is user results that make the difference.


----------



## chris mason (May 17, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Not quite. There are a ton of creatine/dextrose supplements out there that use a combination of these two well known supplements. While your product costs more, it has a certain edge that all those other products don't have-the HMB and Beta. While you still maintain the same _profit margin_, you sell more total units-which leads to an overall increase in _profit_.
> 
> Nobody would buy your product if it was creatine, dextrose and Beta-because all of those products can be bought dirt cheap, and *the overhead costs you would incur from combining them into your mixture wouldn't allow you to sell very much volume-because your costs would increase to the point where it would be stupid to pay for your product because you'd have to charge a higher than normal cost for otherwise dirt cheap products.*
> 
> Adding the HMB allows you to differentiate your product from others, and at the same time still charge a higher price than the separate ingredients purchased on their own.


 
You are wrong.  I don't know what else to tell you.  What you say is "dirt cheap" is still sold at a profit.  You are not in the industry (obviously) and therefore have no idea what the true cost of the individual ingredients are.  Your conjecture is inaccurate and it is foolish of you to state it as though it were fact.

You can believe what you want, and do what you want, that will not alter the fact RESULTS is a fantastic supplement for size and strength.  I must say that I find it amusing that the naysayers in this thread are doing so in the face of a fellow member who is hitting PRs right and left.


----------



## chris mason (May 17, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> Creatine Monohydrate, while tried and true, is no longer the best available creatine option IMO.
> 
> Even with a sugar free supplement, why pay top dollar for a mediocre supplement?
> 
> Gaspari Nutrition's SizeOn is cheaper and better for instance.


 
Well, your opinion is not that which is shared by some of the best research scientists in the business.  Men like Jeff Volek.  I recently asked him his thoughts on other forms of creatine and he simply said that monohydrate is what he would go with confirming my personal stance.

As for Gaspari's product vs. mine, you have no idea as you have never used my product?  Give it a try and then voice your opinion.


----------



## Built (May 17, 2008)

chris mason said:


> You are wrong.  I don't know what else to tell you.  What you say is "dirt cheap" is still sold at a profit.  You are not in the industry (obviously) and therefore have no idea what the true cost of the individual ingredients are.  Your conjecture is inaccurate and it is foolish of you to state it as though it were fact.
> 
> You can believe what you want, and do what you want, that will not alter the fact RESULTS is a fantastic supplement for size and strength.  I must say that I find it amusing that the naysayers in this thread are doing so in the face of a fellow member who is hitting PRs right and left.





Built said:


> Creatine monohydrate is tried and true, and the only kind I ever use. Cheap and proven effective.
> 
> BA appears to have some positive attributes, but I honestly don't know enough about it.
> 
> ...


----------



## chris mason (May 17, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Nearly all power lifters who compete at a high level usually use gear. So somehow they're magically attributing PR's in the gym due to an over the counter supplement that doesn't have a single conclusive study behind the main ingredient... Does this fool anyone over the age of 12?


 
Lol, why say such things?

IF a powerlifter were on gear and the only change they made was to add a supplement and they then hit PRs to what would you attribute the progress?  

Anyway, I am sorry you feel the way you do.  You can continue with your life and all of the folks using and loving RESULTS will continue with theirs.


----------



## chris mason (May 17, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> So basically,
> 
> through the studies that nni and built brought about in this thread, the BA and HMB are useless and monohydrate is an inferior creatine compared to other types?


 
No, not at all.  There is a TON of research backing BA and there is plenty of research backing HMB.  

There are studies which say creatine doesn't work.  Heck, I can even show you studies saying STEROIDS don't work.  A study is not the be-all and end-all of everything.  You need to take a look at an overall body of work on a given substance or sunstances as well as the empirical evidence from real life use.


----------



## chris mason (May 17, 2008)

Built, I might just make a sugar-free version, but not just yet.


----------



## chris mason (May 17, 2008)

nni said:


> yeah, sorry to clutter up your thread, ill bow out and not clutter it up anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Oh, and I forgot to mention you assertation about no research showing BA and creatine, or HMB and creatine having additive effects exists is wrong.  There IS research which shows exactly that.


----------



## chris mason (May 17, 2008)

lucifuge said:


> I don't know about 'fooling' anyone. I am simply recording information here.


 
Please don't think I don't appreciate it.  You just keep on hitting PRs in the gym and we will let the others speculate.


----------



## Built (May 17, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Built, I might just make a sugar-free version, but not just yet.





I have a board full of insulin resistant female lifters who would more than likely be delighted to test your product. Hell, you could even run a double-blind study!


----------



## Built (May 17, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Nearly all power lifters who compete at a high level usually use gear.  So somehow they're magically attributing PR's in the gym due to an over the counter supplement that doesn't have a single conclusive study behind the main ingredient...  Does this fool anyone over the age of 12?





chris mason said:


> Lol, why say such things?
> 
> IF a powerlifter were on gear and the only change they made was to add a supplement and they then hit PRs to what would you attribute the progress?
> 
> Anyway, I am sorry you feel the way you do.  You can continue with your life and all of the folks using and loving RESULTS will continue with theirs.



A massively muscular, assisted male will have enhanced glucose uptake. That 80g of dextrose and corresponding insulin response will do much to improve delivery of your product. Even without insulin, GLUT-4 transporters - whose action is enhanced by muscle activity - will shuttle glucose into the muscle. More muscle = more effective delivery. I don't see this an anything but a positive: assisted athletes need lovin' (and supplements) too. 



Chris, why not make a sugar-free version now? You have all the raw ingredients, and without the sugar you could probably make this in a capsule format. No icky flavouring problem.


----------



## ZECH (May 17, 2008)

chris mason said:


> I understand.  Let me put it this way, I will not comment about whether or not said individuals use anabolics.  That would be for them.  That said, even if they did, if they change nothing else about their drug and training regimen and add a supplement and see significant benefits from said supplement then it stands to reason said supplement was effective for them.  That makes sense, no?
> 
> I know you do not know me from Sam, but I am not like so many other supplement company owners who will attibute an athlete's success to my products.  Chuck was the best prior to ever using my products.  That said, if he feels they help his training I think it would be stupid of me not to point that out.  In addition, if he asks for the product for no reason other than he feels it works I think that is a great endorsement of the product and want to share it.



Yeah fair enough. Again I was not knocking your product and I know it's tough in the supp industry. Just look at this thread.


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 17, 2008)

I still don't see how he continues to ignore the fact that almost all of the people he's referencing are on massive steroid cycles-consisting of several drugs, and probably close to if not over a gram of testosterone-yet this HMB product is the cause of their strength gains lol.  Give me a break.


----------



## chris mason (May 18, 2008)

dg806 said:


> Yeah fair enough. Again I was not knocking your product and I know it's tough in the supp industry. Just look at this thread.


 
Lol, you ain't lyin!!!


----------



## chris mason (May 18, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> I still don't see how he continues to ignore the fact that almost all of the people he's referencing are on massive steroid cycles-consisting of several drugs, and probably close to if not over a gram of testosterone-yet this HMB product is the cause of their strength gains lol. Give me a break.


 
Well, I can tell you I am NOT ignoring the fact this is your 5th post on this board which indicates this is the ONLY thread you have posted in.  Hmmm...


----------



## lucifuge (May 18, 2008)

*Day 17*
5/17/08
*off day*


*Day 18*
5/18/09

My left shoulder/trap is still a little tender, so I took it a little easy.
As a result, I didn't even try for any pr's today.
Still had a great workout though.
Check my journal if ya wanna see it.


----------



## lucifuge (May 18, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> I still don't see how he continues to ignore the fact that almost all of the people he's referencing are on massive steroid cycles-consisting of several drugs, and probably close to if not over a gram of testosterone-yet this HMB product is the cause of their strength gains lol.  Give me a break.



I don't see how you continue to ignore the fact that this thread has almost nothing to do with the powerlifters Chris referred to.
This thread is about *my* experience with "results".
If you read the beginning of the thread, I listed everything I'm taking. I'm not on gear for this log, yet I am setting pr's in just about every workout... 
Point of fact, no one said that HMB is the cause of anything.
Actually read the thread before you make stupid statements.
Jackass.


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 18, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Well, I can tell you I am NOT ignoring the fact this is your 5th post on this board which indicates this is the ONLY thread you have posted in.  Hmmm...



You should be politician.  This is not the only thread I've posted in, but being a member for all of a few days my post count doesn't mean my opinion isn't as important as someone else's.



lucifuge said:


> I don't see how you continue to ignore the fact that this thread has almost nothing to do with the powerlifters Chris referred to.
> This thread is about *my* experience with "results".
> If you read the beginning of the thread, I listed everything I'm taking. I'm not on gear for this log, yet I am setting pr's in just about every workout...
> Point of fact, no one said that HMB is the cause of anything.
> ...



Have you ever set PR's before using this supplement, or were you lifting the exact same amount of weight during every session for your entire lifting career?


----------



## lucifuge (May 18, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Have you ever set PR's before using this supplement, or were you lifting the exact same amount of weight during every session for your entire lifting career?




That's ridiculous...
Of course I've set pr's in the past, but never with this frequency (well, with the exception of being a pure beginner anyway)


----------



## soxmuscle (May 18, 2008)

I don't think Texan is wrong for finding it hard to believe an experienced lifter is setting PR's left and right with a basic creatine monohydrate supplement...


----------



## lucifuge (May 18, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> I don't think Texan is wrong for finding it hard to believe an experienced lifter is setting PR's left and right with a basic creatine monohydrate supplement...



I didn't say he was wrong.... in fact, like I mentioned it in an earlier post, I too find it hard to attribute my performace to simply sugar, creatine, hmb, & b-ala.
However, I've been lifting for a little over 8 years, so I think that qualifies me as an experienced lifter, and I've set more than a couple pr's in the past couple weeks.
I'm not saying it's easy, and I'm not saying "results" is the greatest thing since sliced bread either.
Like I said, I'm only recording information here.


----------



## chris mason (May 19, 2008)

lucifuge said:


> I didn't say he was wrong.... in fact, like I mentioned it in an earlier post, I too find it hard to attribute my performace to simply sugar, creatine, hmb, & b-ala.
> However, I've been lifting for a little over 8 years, so I think that qualifies me as an experienced lifter, and I've set more than a couple pr's in the past couple weeks.
> I'm not saying it's easy, and I'm not saying "results" is the greatest thing since sliced bread either.
> Like I said, I'm only recording information here.


 
A couple of points, Sox calls it a basic creatine mono product, it isn't.   The combination of dextrose, creatine, HMB, and beta alanine all make for a product which is MUCH more potent than any creatine only product.

You are recording your efforts and the product has clearly helped.  I would think most people would want to try a product which allows an experienced lifter to set new PRs with some regularity.


----------



## workingatit43 (May 19, 2008)

I have to agree you should try a product before you say another product is better oh and by the way this is a great log bro


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 19, 2008)

This thing is $50 for a 30 day supply?


----------



## Stewart14 (May 19, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> This thing is $50 for a 30 day supply?


 
I did notice that as well, which makes it pretty much off limits for me, even if I wanted to try it, I just can't spend that kind of money on creatine, when I can get a 130 serving container for less than $20.  Sucks because I have been known to try new things that people say work well, but not at that price unfortunately.


----------



## lucifuge (May 19, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> This thing is $50 for a 30 day supply?





Stewart20 said:


> I did notice that as well, which makes it pretty much off limits for me, even if I wanted to try it, I just can't spend that kind of money on creatine, when I can get a 130 serving container for less than $20.  Sucks because I have been known to try new things that people say work well, but not at that price unfortunately.


That's another reason I'm gonna cut the serving in half when I use it again.
That is pretty salty.


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 19, 2008)

lucifuge said:


> That's another reason I'm gonna cut the serving in half when I use it again.
> That is pretty salty.



Most of what has been posted concerning hmb says that the dosage should be a bare minimum of 3 grams a day.  I don't think 1.5g of hmb is going to be worth anything at all.  Well, I don't think 10 grams of hmb would be worth anything-but if you believe that there's any evidence supporting hmb, you should be using no less than 3 grams a day.  This is the reason it's not a very popular supplement.  Inconclusive science + very expensive = usually not worth buying.


----------



## lucifuge (May 19, 2008)

yeah, I've just been doing some more research on it, and it seems impossible to find in bulk form (I was gonna throw some extra in). But 3 grams does seem to be the 'magic' number... bummer.
I did find a place in Europe that sells it in bulk, but no shipping listed for the U.S....


----------



## chris mason (May 19, 2008)

Stewart20 said:


> I did notice that as well, which makes it pretty much off limits for me, even if I wanted to try it, I just can't spend that kind of money on creatine, when I can get a 130 serving container for less than $20. Sucks because I have been known to try new things that people say work well, but not at that price unfortunately.


 
Let me put it this way, if you ONLY took RESULTS you would make much better progress than you currently do.  You could NOT supplement with protein or anything else and just use RESULTS and see very nice gains.


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 19, 2008)

I still don't understand how anyone can justify spending 50 dollars a month on such a supplement.  Supplements that combine other supplements into a blend to form a new supplement are *always* over-priced.

I've seen creatine combined with dextrose being sold for 30 dollars for a months supply.  Give it a fancy name like "Mass Tech" and something that can be purchased for 5 bucks a month how costs 30.


----------



## nni (May 19, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Let me put it this way, if you ONLY took RESULTS you would make much better progress than you currently do.  You could NOT supplement with protein or anything else and just use RESULTS and see very nice gains.



awesome!!!!!!


----------



## soxmuscle (May 19, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Most of what has been posted concerning hmb says that the dosage should be a bare minimum of 3 grams a day.  I don't think 1.5g of hmb is going to be worth anything at all.  Well, I don't think 10 grams of hmb would be worth anything-but if you believe that there's any evidence supporting hmb, you should be using no less than 3 grams a day.  This is the reason it's not a very popular supplement.  Inconclusive science + very expensive = usually not worth buying.



You've been spot on this entire thread.


----------



## chris mason (May 19, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> You've been spot on this entire thread.


 
Sox, you have a Westside training reference in your signature. Did you know that Louie Simmons personally endorses our products? Did you know that most of the guys at Westside use and REQUEST RESULTS?  Oh, and you might want to check out the supplements section on their website if you don't believe me...


----------



## soxmuscle (May 19, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Sox, you have a Westside training reference in your signature. Did you know that Louie Simmons personally endorses our products? Did you know that most of the guys at Westside use and REQUEST RESULTS?  Oh, and you might want to check out the supplements section on their website if you don't believe me...



I didn't know that, but did you know that Jay Cutler got as big as he is now because of Muscletech?  And Ronnie Coleman got as big as he is because of BSN?


----------



## Travis Bell (May 20, 2008)

no Chris isn't kidding. Lou loves this stuff as do all of our guys at Westside

I know he takes it every day.....because I train there haha


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 20, 2008)

Travis Bell said:


> no Chris isn't kidding. Lou loves this stuff as do all of our guys at Westside
> 
> I know he takes it every day.....because I train there haha



Jay Cutler says he loves anabolic halo too, have you seen their ad?

*"Within seconds you'll feel an intense glacial-like chill hit the back of your throat like an avalanche of polar ice. The subzero outbreak has begun! It feels like your entire physiological profile is freezing as the mega-dose of more than 75 cutting-edge and musclebuilding ingredients in the ANABOLIC HALO formula courses through your veins."



"The first technology Team MuscleTech researchers and scientists used to create ANABOLIC HALO is Cryogenic Thermomolecular Technology. It utilizes subzero liquid nitrogen as cold as -320 degrees Fahrenheit to thermomolecularly enhance a precise portion of a key musclebuilding compound in ANABOLIC HALO. That's right, Team MuscleTech researchers actually exposed one of the most powerful anabolic compounds in the world to the same impossibly low temperatures on the surface of the planet Neptune. The cryogenically processed anabolic driver is unlike anything your muscles have ever experienced."*


PPl endorsing supps means absolutely nothing.


----------



## soxmuscle (May 20, 2008)

It's a creatine product.  Creatine is a tried and tested proven to work supplement.  I'm not doubting it's effectiveness.  I'm doubting this "revolutionary" mix that Chris speaks of, because frankly, based off of the ingredients, this certainly isn't some miracle supplement that it's made out to be.  

That, coupled with how incredibly overpriced RESULTS is and how other creatine products I've tried have worked better than regular Creatine Monohydrate, I won't be buying this product.


----------



## Stewart14 (May 20, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Jay Cutler says he loves anabolic halo too, have you seen their ad?
> 
> *"Within seconds you'll feel an intense glacial-like chill hit the back of your throat like an avalanche of polar ice. The subzero outbreak has begun! It feels like your entire physiological profile is freezing as the mega-dose of more than 75 cutting-edge and musclebuilding ingredients in the ANABOLIC HALO formula courses through your veins."*
> 
> ...


----------



## Stewart14 (May 20, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Let me put it this way, if you ONLY took RESULTS you would make much better progress than you currently do. You could NOT supplement with protein or anything else and just use RESULTS and see very nice gains.


 
If you would like to send me a month's supply so that we can test out your theory, I would gladly try it.


----------



## Stewart14 (May 20, 2008)

I will not knock the product, this is Chris' company and he is just trying to market his product best he can and I am sure it really does work well for what it is (a creatine product), however, my only knock is the price is prohibitive for me and I am sure lots of other people.  It's a catch-22 situation because the only way I would know if it worked better than my current creatine products would be to try it and spend the $50, then, if it worked better, I would be forced with the option of spending $50 a month on the stuff, or going back to my other products and potentially lose any gains I were to make on the product.

I don't even know at what price point it would even be feasible for me to try, so I guess it would be safe to say this would be a product for serious bodybuilders, serious powerlifters, or people with lots of disposable income.  I consider it a luxury supplement, a BMW of creatine supps if you will, compared to the honda civic of a supplement I am using now.  Both will get you where you want to go, only the BMW might get you there faster


----------



## Travis Bell (May 20, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Jay Cutler says he loves anabolic halo too, have you seen their ad?
> 
> *"Within seconds you'll feel an intense glacial-like chill hit the back of your throat like an avalanche of polar ice. The subzero outbreak has begun! It feels like your entire physiological profile is freezing as the mega-dose of more than 75 cutting-edge and musclebuilding ingredients in the ANABOLIC HALO formula courses through your veins."
> 
> ...



you base the validity of endorsements on MuscleTech???


----------



## Travis Bell (May 20, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> It's a creatine product.  Creatine is a tried and tested proven to work supplement.  I'm not doubting it's effectiveness.  I'm doubting this "revolutionary" mix that Chris speaks of, because frankly, based off of the ingredients, this certainly isn't some miracle supplement that it's made out to be.
> 
> That, coupled with how incredibly overpriced RESULTS is and how other creatine products I've tried have worked better than regular Creatine Monohydrate, I won't be buying this product.



nobody is saying its a "miracle" supplement but it does work very well, which I realize you said you don't doubt. You're right its not an inexpensive supplement, the point though is its well worth the cost though. Its not overpriced though, but expensive? yes. Every now and then you'll find a supplement that is worth the expense you put into it and thats the way I feel about Results. You'll notice that it doesn't have tons of worthless filler that bump the price up. Every ingredient has a purpose that is supported by Chris (regardless of whether you agree with the research or not)

At the end of the day though, if you don't like it, don't buy it, like you said. Personally I think you're missing out though


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 20, 2008)

Stewart20 said:


> I will not knock the product, this is Chris' company and he is just trying to market his product best he can and I am sure it really does work well for what it is (a creatine product), however, my only knock is the price is prohibitive for me and I am sure lots of other people.  It's a catch-22 situation because the only way I would know if it worked better than my current creatine products would be to try it and spend the $50, then, if it worked better, I would be forced with the option of spending $50 a month on the stuff, or going back to my other products and potentially lose any gains I were to make on the product.
> 
> I don't even know at what price point it would even be feasible for me to try, so I guess it would be safe to say this would be a product for serious bodybuilders, serious powerlifters, or people with lots of disposable income.  I consider it a luxury supplement, a BMW of creatine supps if you will, compared to the honda civic of a supplement I am using now.  Both will get you where you want to go, only the BMW might get you there faster




If you really want to try this supplement just price the 4 individual ingredients, I will guarantee its much cheaper than 50.


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 20, 2008)

Travis Bell said:


> you base the validity of endorsements on MuscleTech???



ha. There are hundreds of supplement companies that do the same thing.  Muscle Tech is not a minority.  In fact, I've yet to see a single supplement company who doesn't exaggerate the effectiveness of its supplements.  Every supplement company on the face of the planet engages in exaggerated marketing campaigns.  Some may not be to the ridiculous extent that Muscle Tech has reached, but it's still happening to some degree.  



Travis Bell said:


> Its not overpriced though, but expensive? yes.



Every single supplement on the market that takes pre-existing supplements and combines them is ALWAYS over-priced.  The ingredients can always be bought cheaper on their own.


----------



## Travis Bell (May 20, 2008)

well my point is that its not just an endorsement, I know for a fact that Lou likes Results and takes it daily so take it for what you want, but its not the same example as the MuscleTech ad you put up there. It'd be the same if you in fact talked to Jay Cutler and got his honest opinion on it. I've known and trained with Lou for years so I don't really pull this stuff out of nowhere. Obviously you are one that won't be convinced. I think you're over generalizing supplement companies as a whole but some people just refuse to believe and I understand that


----------



## nni (May 20, 2008)

Travis Bell said:


> nobody is saying its a "miracle" supplement but it does work very well, which I realize you said you don't doubt. You're right its not an inexpensive supplement, the point though is its well worth the cost though. Its not overpriced though, but expensive? yes. Every now and then you'll find a supplement that is worth the expense you put into it and thats the way I feel about Results. You'll notice that it doesn't have tons of worthless filler that bump the price up. Every ingredient has a purpose that is supported by Chris (regardless of whether you agree with the research or not)
> 
> At the end of the day though, if you don't like it, don't buy it, like you said. Personally I think you're missing out though



you can stop taking protein and still see results with results!!!!


for those questioning the price, here is something to consider...

Results $49.99
Dextrose - 2400g
Creatine Mono - 150g
Beta Alanine - 105g
HMB - 90g

to do it yourself...
Dextrose (3 bags of NOW dex) 2724g @ $12.75
Creatine Mono (Ultimate mono) 300g @ $7.95
Beta Alanine (Sup Direct BA) 250g @ $14.99
HMB (Scifit) 90g @ $24.79

now, these amounts dont match up, so i will adjust where it is needed to see a true price comparison...

Now dextrose 2400g = $11.23
Ultimate mono 150g = $3.98
Sup Dir BA 105g = $6.30
Scifit HMB 90g = $24.79
----------------------------
$46.30

now this is without flavoring. obviously if you went bulk with everything you can save more, but this is a fair price, so i wont argue with that.


----------



## Travis Bell (May 20, 2008)

Thanks for taking the time to put that together, I appreciate that


----------



## thewicked (May 20, 2008)

nni said:


> you can stop taking protein and still see results with results!!!!
> 
> 
> for those questioning the price, here is something to consider...
> ...



there it is ladies and gentlemen!


----------



## thewicked (May 20, 2008)

Travis Bell said:


> nobody is saying its a "miracle" supplement but it does work very well, which I realize you said you don't doubt. You're right its not an inexpensive supplement, the point though is its well worth the cost though. Its not overpriced though, but expensive? yes. Every now and then you'll find a supplement that is worth the expense you put into it and thats the way I feel about Results. You'll notice that it doesn't have tons of worthless filler that bump the price up. Every ingredient has a purpose that is supported by Chris (regardless of whether you agree with the research or not)
> 
> At the end of the day though, if you don't like it, don't buy it, like you said. Personally I think you're missing out though



Results has been the only creatine product i've ever used...either by itself or as a creatine mix that has actually delivered. That alone is worth the price invested in it. Not to mention everyone that's raving about it not only are the pro's that are using it.. but us everyday guys as well looking for a little something extra to help us push ourselve to the limit! Is it worth the money spent? ABSOLUTELY!


----------



## nni (May 20, 2008)

thewicked said:


> Results has been the only creatine product i've ever used...either by itself or as a creatine mix that has actually delivered. That alone is worth the price invested in it. Not to mention everyone that's raving about it not only are the pro's that are using it.. but us everyday guys as well looking for a little something extra to help us push ourselve to the limit! Is it worth the money spent? ABSOLUTELY!



dear lord, pull i back a bit.


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 20, 2008)

nni said:


> you can stop taking protein and still see results with results!!!!
> 
> 
> for those questioning the price, here is something to consider...
> ...



Why _wouldn't_ you go bulk with everything?  That's how you're going to save money compared to the pre-mixed supplement.  When you go bulk, not only are the individual ingredients cheaper, but you save a DRASTIC amount of money in shipping costs over the course of a year.  I don't think that's the main debate here.  The fact remains that there isn't any conclusive science behind HMB, hence why it's been around for a while and not very popular.  If we were talking about creatine, who cares-even if the studies were inconclusive, it's dirt cheap.  Why anyone would choose to throw such a ridiculous amount of money behind a supplement that doesn't have jack supporting it from science is insane.


----------



## soxmuscle (May 20, 2008)

I see what you're trying to say nni, but the whole point of buying it all separate is so you can buy it in bulk.

I'm at work so I can't bring out the calculator just yet, but I'll do that tonight and I can't imagine it being much over $10 to $20 dollars for a 30-day serving.

Again, I'm not doubting the effectiveness of RESULTS (we get that it works), it's simply a terribly overpriced product in the same boat (if not worse) than any MuscleTech or BSN product.


----------



## soxmuscle (May 20, 2008)

thewicked said:


> Results has been the only creatine product i've ever used...either by itself or as a creatine mix that has actually delivered. That alone is worth the price invested in it. Not to mention everyone that's raving about it not only are the pro's that are using it.. but us everyday guys as well looking for a little something extra to help us push ourselve to the limit! Is it worth the money spent? ABSOLUTELY!



I masturbate to Kim Kardashian, Doublebase masturbates to gay porno.. the wicked masturbates to this supplement.


----------



## nni (May 20, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Why _wouldn't_ you go bulk with everything?  That's how you're going to save money compared to the pre-mixed supplement.  When you go bulk, not only are the individual ingredients cheaper, but you save a DRASTIC amount of money in shipping costs over the course of a year.  I don't think that's the main debate here.  The fact remains that there isn't any conclusive science behind HMB, hence why it's been around for a while and not very popular.  If we were talking about creatine, who cares-even if the studies were inconclusive, it's dirt cheap.  Why anyone would choose to throw such a ridiculous amount of money behind a supplement that doesn't have jack supporting it from science is insane.



your telling me this? 



soxmuscle said:


> I see what you're trying to say nni, but the whole point of buying it all separate is so you can buy it in bulk.
> 
> I'm at work so I can't bring out the calculator just yet, but I'll do that tonight and I can't imagine it being much over $10 to $20 dollars for a 30-day serving.
> 
> Again, I'm not doubting the effectiveness of RESULTS (we get that it works), it's simply a terribly overpriced product in the same boat (if not worse) than any MuscleTech or BSN product.



i dont trust most bulk suppliers. dont want to get into it, but i just dont.


----------



## chris mason (May 20, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> If you really want to try this supplement just price the 4 individual ingredients, I will guarantee its much cheaper than 50.


 
Wrong!  Make sure you seek Creapure(TM) as the monohydrate source.  

Lol, you really should cease the hate-fest.  It only reflects poorly on you.


----------



## chris mason (May 20, 2008)

nni said:


> you can stop taking protein and still see results with results!!!!
> 
> 
> for those questioning the price, here is something to consider...
> ...


 

Thank you.  In addition, Creapure(TM) is a bit more expensive not to mention the fact you might end up paying more than one shipping fee to get the above individually.

Chris


----------



## lucifuge (May 21, 2008)

*Day 19
5/19/08*
off day
-----------------------------------------------------------------

*Day 20*
5/20/08

*Dead Lifts*:
225 x 5
315 x 6
350 x 5  *PR*

*Leg Ext*.:
90 x 12
135 x 10
180 x 8   _technically another PR, but since I rarely use Leg Ext., I'm not sure how relative it is to this log._

*SLDL*:
225 x 8
245 x 5, 5   _increased reps_

*Leg Curls*:
70 x 12
90 x 8, 7

*Seated Calf Raises*: _(10 second rest intervals)_
115 x 25, 10, 10, 10  = 55 total.

A pretty fun session.
I swapped out squats this week for the hell of it.


----------



## workingatit43 (May 21, 2008)

Congrats on the PR'S bro great job


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 21, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Wrong!  Make sure you seek Creapure(TM) as the monohydrate source.
> 
> Lol, you really should cease the hate-fest.  It only reflects poorly on you.



It's almost as if you play yourself out to be a victim and you want pity from everyone.  What we've all stated are FACTS.  The individual ingredients in your product can be purchased in bulk separately for cheaper than the cost of your product.  *Hell, even when not purchased in bulk, it was still slightly cheaper than your product*.  The science behind HMB is inconclusive, at best, that's A FACT.  Stating facts is not a "hate fest".

Creapure is no different than plain creatine monohydrate.  It's a marketing gimmic.  You give it a fancy name and convince idiots that it's somehow better than plain creatine.  Saying otherwise is complete bullshit, and you know it.


----------



## chris mason (May 21, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> It's almost as if you play yourself out to be a victim and you want pity from everyone. What we've all stated are FACTS. The individual ingredients in your product can be purchased in bulk separately for cheaper than the cost of your product. *Hell, even when not purchased in bulk, it was still slightly cheaper than your product*. The science behind HMB is inconclusive, at best, that's A FACT. Stating facts is not a "hate fest".
> 
> Creapure is no different than plain creatine monohydrate. It's a marketing gimmic. You give it a fancy name and convince idiots that it's somehow better than plain creatine. Saying otherwise is complete bullshit, and you know it.


 
Lol, your statement about Creapure(TM) just proves it.  First, Creapure(TM) IS better because it is not some cheap ass Chinese creatine monohydrate full of impurities.  Second, I did not name it you moron, it is produced by a German company and is their trademark name for their product.

Look, you don't know what you are talking about.  Your attempts to discredit me and my product only make YOU look bad AND it keeps this thread alive and well viewed (I thank you for that).


----------



## nni (May 21, 2008)

creapure is a guaranteed quality, but this does not guarantee that other creatines arent of the same quality. again, this product is nothing earth shattering, the argument is over carbs, creatine and hmb. beta alanine is the only somewhat new ingredient in the formula, and that isnt so new anymore.


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 21, 2008)

The entire idea behind the original naming of the brand, whoever named it, was a marketing campaign.  There's no difference between creapure and regular creatine.  Even if there was, it would be so unbelievably minimal that it wouldn't matter.  What exactly is a "creatine impurity"?

Nobody is trying to discredit anyone.  I'm simply pointing out relevant factors surrounding this product.  It's overpriced for what it does, drastically overpriced-just like every other hyped up supp out there.  Creatine is worth taking simply because it's so cheap.  If creatine were 50 dollars for a months supply, it wouldn't make sense to use it anymore.  Mulitvitamins are great, they're also very cheap.  If they were 5 dollars a piece, it wouldn't make sense to use them anymore.  

Supplements that aren't food or steroids provide *A MINIMAL benefit* to the user.  When that minimal benefit is costing someone 50 dollars a month, it's retarded.


----------



## chris mason (May 21, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> The entire idea behind the original naming of the brand, whoever named it, was a marketing campaign. There's no difference between creapure and regular creatine. Even if there was, it would be so unbelievably minimal that it wouldn't matter. What exactly is a "creatine impurity"?
> 
> Nobody is trying to discredit anyone. I'm simply pointing out relevant factors surrounding this product. It's overpriced for what it does, drastically overpriced-just like every other hyped up supp out there. Creatine is worth taking simply because it's so cheap. If creatine were 50 dollars for a months supply, it wouldn't make sense to use it anymore. Mulitvitamins are great, they're also very cheap. If they were 5 dollars a piece, it wouldn't make sense to use them anymore.
> 
> Supplements that aren't food or steroids provide *A MINIMAL benefit* to the user. When that minimal benefit is costing someone 50 dollars a month, it's retarded.


 
Yep, keep posting.  You only serve me.


----------



## katt (May 22, 2008)

wow - this journal has taken a turn toward debate.. 

Hey L - how's the workouts goin'??  I wonder how Results would work for me as a gal?


----------



## soxmuscle (May 22, 2008)

katt said:


> wow - this journal has taken a turn toward debate..



From talking to Texan, all he's after is a non-bias opinion from someone who isn't a representative of their company.

Basically, you have all these annoying reps trying to hype up this mediocre product and a few down to earth people who realize that $50 dollars for Results is simply robbery.

I hope I have time today to do some calculations; there isn't a doubt in my mind, you could get a four month to half a year supply of the ingredients in this product for the same price it's costing people who purchase a months supply of Results and IMO thats not fair in any way, shape or form.


----------



## lucifuge (May 22, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> *From talking to Texan, all he's after is a non-bias opinion from someone who isn't a representative of their company.*Basically, you have all these annoying reps trying to hype up this mediocre product and a few down to earth people who realize that $50 dollars for Results is simply robbery.
> 
> I hope I have time today to do some calculations; there isn't a doubt in my mind, you could get a four month to half a year supply of the ingredients in this product for the same price it's costing people who purchase a months supply of Results and IMO thats not fair in any way, shape or form.



fascinating, maybe I'm missing something but I thought that was the entire point of this log in the first place. I am completely unbiased and have no frikkin connection to the company. I'm trying to be as sincere as possible about my experience using 'results' and my thread's full of this bullshit.  Seriously, if you don't want to buy the product then don't buy the product.


----------



## lucifuge (May 22, 2008)

katt said:


> wow - this journal has taken a turn toward debate..
> 
> Hey L - how's the workouts goin'??  I wonder how Results would work for me as a gal?




Workouts are going great actually.
I'm gonna back off a bit after I finish this log and unload a bit.
As for the product, I think it works great. 
I do have some misgiving about the sugar, mainly because of the acne that is simply refusing to go away.
other than that, I really have no complaints


----------



## katt (May 22, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> Oh, and Katt.. Results would definitely work well for you.  Have you ever used a creatine product in the past?



I've used Gaspari  Size-on and just normal bulk Creatine mixed in crystal light


----------



## lucifuge (May 22, 2008)

Oh yeah, I weighted in this morning at 222 lbs, 19.8 % bf.


----------



## chris mason (May 22, 2008)

katt said:


> I've used Gaspari Size-on and just normal bulk Creatine mixed in crystal light


 
Katt, RESULTS works equally well for women.  You should give it a try, I am confident you will like it.

Chris


----------



## soxmuscle (May 22, 2008)

katt said:


> I've used Gaspari  Size-on and just normal bulk Creatine mixed in crystal light



Nice.  Creatine is a big help IMO, especially on recovery times.  Best of luck whichever brand you decide on.


----------



## soxmuscle (May 22, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Only one problem with what you are saying about my minion TX, THIS THREAD WAS STARTED AND MAINTAINED BY A MEMBER OF THIS BOARD WHO HAS NO AFFILIATION WITH MY COMPANY.  Lol, if that was all he was looking for he would not be posting here...
> 
> Oh, and one other thing relative to your proposed cost analysis, there can be a HUGE variance in the quality of ingredients.  Manufacturing processes can vary widely, especially in countries like China where less regulation is in place.  So, finding the cheapest version is not always the best.  Let the buyer beware...
> 
> In the end, prior to pricing the product we did check into what reasonably priced good quality individual ingredients would cost (at places like Bb.com) and kept our product in line with them thus affording the consumer a product which is pre-made and flavored with its concurrent convenience all at a price which is right in-line with what they would pay to make their own version.



China... bad quality.. Cost analysis.. What the fuck is going on here?

I would have no problem finding quality ingredients, puhhlease.


----------



## soxmuscle (May 22, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> I just don't believe hitting a few PRs is worth 50 bucks a month.  I think its a combination of a placebo effect and consuming 80g of dextrose.  If HMB is so remarkable I'm curious as to why this company doesnt offer an HMB only product.



Creatine works, nobody is doubting it's effectiveness.  Luc would be setting these "PR's" with $20 dollar creatine as well.


----------



## lucifuge (May 22, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> *You were given a product for free.  Your opinion is worthless.*
> And yes, I won't be buying this product nor should anybody in their right mind.



What?
um, in this thread, especially since you've never used said product *YOUR * opinion is worthless poopypants.


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 22, 2008)

If there is a "high quality" hmb, who's to say you're using it? You..an owner of the company? Go figure.  The quality of such ingredients is pretty standard.  We aren't buying a diamond here, its freggin creatine.


----------



## soxmuscle (May 22, 2008)

lucifuge said:


> What?
> um, in this thread, especially since you've never used said product *YOUR * opinion is worthless poopypants.



Are you a fluffy bunny rabbit?

Nobody is doubting the effectiveness of creatine!  
How many fucking times does this have to be stated?

Your opinion is worthless because you didn't saw off your arm and leg to get the product, like others who have to purchase it.


----------



## lucifuge (May 22, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> Are you a fluffy bunny rabbit?
> 
> Nobody is doubting the effectiveness of creatine!
> How many fucking times does this have to be stated?
> ...



no jinglewatt, you are a fluffy bunny rabbit. 
Whether or not I paid for a product doesn't change the fact that *you* are reading the thread that is solely based on *my opinion* of the product. 
I never said shit about anyone questioning the product, feel free to question all you want. You don't have to be a sallytwizz about it.


----------



## nni (May 22, 2008)

are you guys going to force me to actually moderate this thread? you both suck, and should edit your posts before i have to.


----------



## Irons77 (May 22, 2008)

Isn't this what a test log is for? Questioning a product and it's price Why edit anything?


----------



## nni (May 22, 2008)

Irons77 said:


> Isn't this what a test log is for? Questioning a product and it's price Why edit anything?



the personal insults need to be removed. see it is nice now.


----------



## Stewart14 (May 22, 2008)

My question to L is this...you were given the product to try for a month and you feel you are getting positive results (no pun intended) from it.  Now, your free month is over, will you be spending the $50 to continue using the product?  Were your results (again, no pun intended) worth $50 a month?


----------



## Irons77 (May 22, 2008)

nni said:


> the personal insults need to be removed. see it is nice now.



Now I don't understand what they are saying without the nasty words!!!  Nice now we are family again


----------



## Stewart14 (May 22, 2008)

nni said:


> the personal insults need to be removed. see it is nice now.


 
jinglewatts and bunny rabbits!! Nice choices .

Not the same umph as deuchebags and fucking idiots, but it is "much nicer"


----------



## soxmuscle (May 22, 2008)

Stewart20 said:


> My question to L is this...you were given the product to try for a month and you feel you are getting positive results (no pun intended) from it.  Now, your free month is over, will you be spending the $50 to continue using the product?  Were your results (again, no pun intended) worth $50 a month?



Great question.

If the product was the sole reason for all these personal records, surely you'd incorporate it into your workout regimen for a long time to come.

Are you going to be spending $50 dollars per month for several years to continue this products usage?

P.S: Sorry I snapped, I thought I had made myself clear that I wasn't dissing the product itself, just the price.


----------



## ZECH (May 22, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> You were given a product for free.  Your opinion is worthless.



I disagree.........Chris asked for honest feedback and opinions. And this is what L is giving. If you disagree, fine. No one is forcing you to buy the product or even try it. One thing I have tried to install for years is that EVERYONE is different and will react differntly to products. What works for me might not do jack for you and vice versa. As far as money goes, yeah $50 bucks is steep for me too, as I have 2 kids, house payment, truck payment...yada yada. But it's like anything else. It depends on how dedicated you are and how bad you want it. If gaining a few lbs of muscle is worth $50 a month to someone, I see no problem. Others may not opt to pay that and that is fine too.


----------



## chris mason (May 22, 2008)

Irons77 said:


> Isn't this what a test log is for? Questioning a product and it's price Why edit anything?


 
A test log is so that the tester can state their opinion of a product?

I am sure you are a reasonable and intelligent person, as such, you should be able to see through the blatantly baseless attacks on the product.  You have people dismissing something they have never used.  

I will give you a hint, both of the individuals spewing shit in this log are just goofs from another site who don't like me.  It has ZERO to do with the product.


----------



## Travis Bell (May 22, 2008)

hahaha I thought I'd heard a couple of those arguments before


----------



## chris mason (May 22, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> Great question.
> 
> P.S: Sorry I snapped, I thought I had made myself clear that I wasn't dissing the product itself, just the price.


 
I think you have a misconception of what "dissing" is.  Lol, what is this:

"The product is fine, the price absolutely fucking sucks. End of story, period.

And that's all she wrote.."


Now, if that is not a "diss" then I don't know what is...  You just told people NOT to buy the product.  You have DISSED it.

You really need to stop spewing b.s.  You are stating OPINION as though it were fact, and your opinion is far from the objective reality of the situation.


----------



## chris mason (May 22, 2008)

dg806 said:


> I disagree.........Chris asked for honest feedback and opinions. And this is what L is giving. If you disagree, fine. No one is forcing you to buy the product or even try it. One thing I have tried to install for years is that EVERYONE is different and will react differntly to products. What works for me might not do jack for you and vice versa. As far as money goes, yeah $50 bucks is steep for me too, as I have 2 kids, house payment, truck payment...yada yada. But it's like anything else. It depends on how dedicated you are and how bad you want it. If gaining a few lbs of muscle is worth $50 a month to someone, I see no problem. Others may not opt to pay that and that is fine too.


 
Right, and the real b.s. of the argument is that ANYONE who uses supplements spends $50 per month or very close to it.  The product is VERY effective if it were all one used for supplementation.  You really don't need anything else (for size and strength), other things are just a luxury.


----------



## nni (May 22, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Right, and the real b.s. of the argument is that ANYONE who uses supplements spends $50 per month or very close to it.  The product is VERY effective if it were all one used for supplementation.  You really don't need anything else (for size and strength), other things are just a luxury.



im all for defending the product, but this is twice you made statements that are outrageous concerning results. lets not blow things up here.


----------



## Irons77 (May 22, 2008)

chris mason said:


> A test log is so that the tester can state their opinion of a product?
> 
> I am sure you are a reasonable and intelligent person, as such, you should be able to see through the blatantly baseless attacks on the product.  You have people dismissing something they have never used.
> 
> I will give you a hint, both of the individuals spewing shit in this log are just goofs from another site who don't like me.  It has ZERO to do with the product.



I hear ya Chris! This log is a good one, IMO. I don't have a problem with spenting $50 on a product. If it works well I continue with it, if not then I won't buy it again plain and simple. I'm thinking about buying some and logging the results here after my cut. It will not be a free opinion, but a paid opinion.


----------



## lucifuge (May 22, 2008)

nni said:


> are you guys going to force me to actually moderate this thread? you both suck, and should edit your posts before i have to.


Sorry about that, but very good euphemisms. Um, what the hell is a sallytwizz?



Stewart20 said:


> My question to L is this...you were given the product to try for a month and you feel you are getting positive results (no pun intended) from it.  Now, your free month is over, will you be spending the $50 to continue using the product?  Were your results (again, no pun intended) worth $50 a month?





soxmuscle said:


> Great question.
> 
> If the product was the sole reason for all these personal records, surely you'd incorporate it into your workout regimen for a long time to come.
> 
> ...


As I stated in earlier posts, I am planning on ordering it. And snap all ya want sox... I just think your statement about opinions was ridiculous.




nni said:


> im all for defending the product, but this is twice you made statements that are outrageous concerning results. lets not blow things up here.


I agree.
It's a good supp, but it's not the greatest thing since sliced bread.Lets try to keep things in perspective.


----------



## nni (May 22, 2008)

lucifuge said:


> Sorry about that, but very good euphemisms. Um, what the hell is a sallytwizz?



no idea, first jibberish thing i could make up.


----------



## lucifuge (May 22, 2008)

nni said:


> no idea, first jibberish thing i could make up.



well, it's awesome, I'm stealing it....
ya sallytwizz


----------



## chris mason (May 22, 2008)

nni said:


> im all for defending the product, but this is twice you made statements that are outrageous concerning results. lets not blow things up here.


 
How is that outrageous?  It is the absolute truth.  Perhaps you misunderstand, what I am trying to say is that you would make nice progress just using RESULTS (no protein, no other creatine, no pro-hormones etc.) if you had a tight budget and could only afford $50 per month or so.  Does that make more sense?


----------



## chris mason (May 22, 2008)

Irons77 said:


> I hear ya Chris! This log is a good one, IMO. I don't have a problem with spenting $50 on a product. If it works well I continue with it, if not then I won't buy it again plain and simple. I'm thinking about buying some and logging the results here after my cut. It will not be a free opinion, but a paid opinion.


 
I welcome it!


----------



## lucifuge (May 22, 2008)

*Day 21*
5/21/08

*off day*

-----------------------------------------------------------------

*Day 22*
5/22/08

Mixed the results with a scoop of vanilla whey tonight, pretty tasty stuff.

*Low Incline Bench*:
135 x 10
225 x 10
265 x 7, 4, 4  _increased reps_

*Low Incline Dumbell Press*:
70's x 10, 10, 9  _increased reps_

*Skull Crushers*:
115 x 5, 5, 5  *PR  *

*Straight Bar Pressdowns*:
50 x 15 
_(10 sec)_
10
_(15 sec)_
10
_(20 sec)_
9                         _ouch._

Great session, progress pretty much across the board.
I love nights like this.


----------



## Arnold (May 23, 2008)

this is a journal, stop posting your issues with Chris's product here!


----------



## katt (May 23, 2008)

Still getting the PR's I see... great job!


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 25, 2008)

chris mason said:


> First, Creapure(TM) IS better because it is not some cheap ass Chinese creatine monohydrate full of impurities.



Still waiting for that explanation of what a "creatine impurity" is...


----------



## chris mason (May 25, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Still waiting for that explanation of what a "creatine impurity" is...


 
Read this article: What's Really in Your Supplements? - An Update on Creatine by Will Brink

I am sure you will find some problem with it, but perhaps you can take it up with Will who is a member here.


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 25, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Read this article: What's Really in Your Supplements? - An Update on Creatine by Will Brink
> 
> I am sure you will find some problem with it, but perhaps you can take it up with Will who is a member here.



The article is a great explanation, but they don't list brands they're using-it just says "Chinese Manufacturer".  A listing of the brands would really, really help.


----------



## aussie (May 25, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> The article is a great explanation, but they don't list brands they're using-it just says "Chinese Manufacturer".  A listing of the brands would really, really help.


I just go with brands that use Creapure monohydrate. Really hard to screw that up.

EDIT: But to clarify, don't see much point in taking a creatine supp that mixes in sugar.


----------



## chris mason (May 26, 2008)

aussie said:


> I just go with brands that use Creapure monohydrate. Really hard to screw that up.
> 
> EDIT: But to clarify, don't see much point in taking a creatine supp that mixes in sugar.


 
The dex can make a big difference.  I can site you a personal note to that end.  Without dex I can only take about 7g of creatine without having intestinal discomfort.  With it, I can take up to 20g and have no problems.  

In addition, and it seems to get lost on the naysayers, RESULTS has creatine as only 1 ingredient of 3 main ingredients (creatine, beta alanine, and HMB).

Chris


----------



## aussie (May 26, 2008)

chris mason said:


> The dex can make a big difference.  I can site you a personal note to that end.  Without dex I can only take about 7g of creatine without having intestinal discomfort.  With it, I can take up to 20g and have no problems.
> 
> In addition, and it seems to get lost on the naysayers, RESULTS has creatine as only 1 ingredient of 3 main ingredients (creatine, beta alanine, and HMB).


I don't doubt the role that dex plays but that's just in PWO nutrition. It's pure high-GI carbs with no nutritional value so the only time you'd want this stuff in your body is for a workout. But Results recommends daily servings and that's a problem b/c there's no reason to have dex on days I'm not lifting. 

Besides, I buy my dex at a local brew supply store and 5-lbs costs me $8. I get 1,000g  of Creapure creatine mono for $22. So for $30 I got a 7 month supply that I can mix or keep separate at my discretion. Can't really see myself spending $50 for 1 month's worth of a creatine mix that forces me to use a carb source.

As for the HMB and BA, neither have been proven to do shit for adding strength or LBM. At best BA has shown marginal results with endurance but that's on a good day with a dose that's much larger than what's in Results. And even if you did want to play with it you'd do better buying it in bulk since it's also cheap. Any way you stack it the numbers don't add up to ponying up $50 for a 30-day creatine source.


----------



## chris mason (May 26, 2008)

aussie said:


> I don't doubt the role that dex plays but that's just in PWO nutrition. It's pure high-GI carbs with no nutritional value so the only time you'd want this stuff in your body is for a workout. But Results recommends daily servings and that's a problem b/c there's no reason to have dex on days I'm not lifting.
> 
> Besides, I buy my dex at a local brew supply store and 5-lbs costs me $8. I get 1,000g of Creapure creatine mono for $22. So for $30 I got a 7 month supply that I can mix or keep separate at my discretion. Can't really see myself spending $50 for a 1-month of a creatine mix that forces me to use a carb source.
> 
> As for the HMB and BA, neither have been proven to do shit for adding strength or LBM. At best BA has shown marginal results with endurance but that's on a good day with a dose that's much larger than what's in Results. And even if you did want to play with it you'd do better buying it in bulk since it's also cheap. Any way you stack it the numbers don't add up to ponying up $50 for a 30-day creatine source.


 
Lol, ok Aussie, you are the expert.  

Your OPINION is so far from reality it truly surprises me.

Tell you what, I have a REAL research scientist who actually conducted some of the studies you are referencing who states that my products are well formulated and effective.  I think I will take his word over yours...

You can read about it here:  At Large Nutrition - Dr. Jeff Volek recommends AtLarge!

Something else to consider, I read in another thread about the supplements you already take.  You spend more than $50 per month on them.  You could drop ALL of them and just use RESULTS and be a heck of a lot better off than you are.  It is sad that you will not based upon your ignorance and bias.


----------



## soxmuscle (May 26, 2008)

chris mason said:


> It is sad that you will not based upon your ignorance and bias.



You shouldn't be allowed to post the word bias.


----------



## chris mason (May 26, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> You shouldn't be allowed to post the word bias.


 
Perhaps the difference is that I do not try to hide the fact.  I think everyone here is pretty clear I co-own AtLarge.  You, and some others have a clear bias based upon your own ignornace and or feelings for me, but you try to pass it off as being "helpful" to others by "protecting" them.

I wonder, what have you achieved with all of your training and knowledge?  Is it possible you might not know everything and that your opinions may be flawed?  

Just perhaps...


----------



## Built (May 26, 2008)

Just to clarify here, Dr. Volek - whose research on the benefits of reduced-carbohydrate diets are well known - specifically names Nitor and Thermocin as the At Large products he supports in that link. Both of these products enhance the insulin-resistance and subsequent muscle-sparing that low-carb weight-loss dieting promotes, so his endorsement of them should be of no surprise to anyone who is well-read on the subject. 

Has Dr. Volek expressed his expert opinion on your HMB formulation, Chris?


----------



## soxmuscle (May 26, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Perhaps the difference is that I do not try to hide the fact.  I think everyone here is pretty clear I co-own AtLarge.  You, and some others have a clear bias based upon your own ignornace and or feelings for me, but you try to pass it off as being "helpful" to others by "protecting" them.
> 
> I wonder, what have you achieved with all of your training and knowledge?  Is it possible you might not know everything and that your opinions may be flawed?
> 
> Just perhaps...



Again, you couldn't be farther from the truth.  

You honestly might be one of the dumbest people on this message board and that's saying something considering who frequents this board daily.

I don't know shit about training in comparison to many other people on this board and I don't claim to, that has nothing to do with me being a smart shopper.  Once again, the fact remains your product is overpriced (more overpriced than any BSN or MuscleTech product) and throwing insults at the naysayers saying we're bias, unintelligent, "haven't done anything with training," and last but not least: ignorant, shows just how ignorant and flat out retarded you are.

You're lucky you're paying Prince...


----------



## aussie (May 26, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Lol, ok Aussie, you are the expert.
> 
> Your OPINION is so far from reality it truly surprises me.
> 
> ...


I don't know you Chris but I don't need to. I look at the merits of the product and not the guy standing behind the counter trying to sell it to me because I can guarantee you we're already starting off with two different agendas. 

So you got a research scientist. What does that do for me? Do you know how many countless supp sites are out there being "backed" by doctors and scientists. We're talking about an industry that's not even regulated so the last thing I'm going to rely on are the claims from a supplement manufacturer and their staff to tell me what I need in my stack. Oh, and since you brought that up, here's what I take:

Whey isolate
Creapure creatine mono
EFAs: EPA/DHA and some Udo's Choice Oil Blend
Green Tea Extract
Malto/Dex (PWO only)
Caffeine for a little zing

But I digress, let's get back to HMB. I've seen enough studies on this to know that with exception to killing a few lab rats with dosage issues the results in the real world are nothing to write home about let alone justify the value that you're placing on it in your creatine mix. No need to waste page real estate here on regurgitating the studies but you can find a nice review here: HMB Review: Does HMB Work? Does It Build Muscle?.

I saw in your earlier post that Will Brink is here. If that's the case then I'll put stock in his credentials, reputation, and research than what you can come up with on any day of the week. Unlike you, Brink won't have an agenda to push a product and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that what he has to say on HMB and BA won't help your cause or your bottom line (and arguably one in the same). 

And if it matters, I did check out your site and the other products. I see the same pattern that others have commented on. It's way overpriced compared to what you can find elsewhere. I also don't see the need to combine compounds/ingredients that only show marginal results at best or are misleading. I mean, c'mon, Nitor? You're using kola nut and guarana extracts as a caffeine source but the research you cite is a study on the effects of caffeine in general. I'm all for caffeine if it helps get you through a workout or maintain some focus but why would I want to pay all that money you're charging for friggin kola nut and guarana extracts when I can pick up a year's worth of caffeine pills for a few bucks? And glucomannan? We're talking fiber right? I'll think of that when I head to the grocery store today and see the Metamucil on the shelf but I get plenty from the veggies I eat.


----------



## aussie (May 26, 2008)

Built said:


> Just to clarify here, Dr. Volek - whose research on the benefits of reduced-carbohydrate diets are well known - specifically names Nitor and Thermocin as the At Large products he supports in that link. Both of these products enhance the insulin-resistance and subsequent muscle-sparing that low-carb weight-loss dieting promotes, so his endorsement of them should be of no surprise to anyone who is well-read on the subject.
> 
> Has Dr. Volek expressed his expert opinion on your HMB formulation, Chris?



I'll go out on a limb here and guess that what Dr. Volek wouldn't support is the ingestion of pure dextrose on a daily basis, with or without the presence of resistance training. For all essential purposes dextrose is nutritional garbage. It's the stuff we stay away from in the normal course of our diet but within the scope of intense training it can serve as a vehicle for a quick fuel source. The recommended frequency for Results is daily. Day in, day out, 80g of dextrose adds up to a lot of unnecessary junk cals and carbs.


----------



## chris mason (May 26, 2008)

Built said:


> Just to clarify here, Dr. Volek - whose research on the benefits of reduced-carbohydrate diets are well known - specifically names Nitor and Thermocin as the At Large products he supports in that link. Both of these products enhance the insulin-resistance and subsequent muscle-sparing that low-carb weight-loss dieting promotes, so his endorsement of them should be of no surprise to anyone who is well-read on the subject.
> 
> Has Dr. Volek expressed his expert opinion on your HMB formulation, Chris?


 
Built, try reading again, he specifically notes the fat burners, but also generally comments on the entire line.

I am sure he would be ok with the HMB formulation as he was involved in a study which I referenced which supports its efficacy.


----------



## chris mason (May 26, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> Again, you couldn't be farther from the truth.
> 
> You honestly might be one of the dumbest people on this message board and that's saying something considering who frequents this board daily.
> 
> ...


 
Ahhh, so now I am an idiot and as well as the owner of this site...  

Ok, you win.  I am tired of you.


----------



## chris mason (May 26, 2008)

aussie said:


> I don't know you Chris but I don't need to. I look at the merits of the product and not the guy standing behind the counter trying to sell it to me because I can guarantee you we're already starting off with two different agendas.
> 
> So you got a research scientist. What does that do for me? Do you know how many countless supp sites are out there being "backed" by doctors and scientists. We're talking about an industry that's not even regulated so the last thing I'm going to rely on are the claims from a supplement manufacturer and their staff to tell me what I need in my stack. Oh, and since you brought that up, here's what I take:
> 
> ...


 

You win, I am tired of you as well.  Keep spewing your crap.  You are wrong, but arguing with internet twits like you is rather pointless, no?


----------



## soxmuscle (May 26, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Ahhh, so now I am an idiot *and as well as the owner of this site...  *
> 
> Ok, you win.  I am tired of you.



Speak english, you fluffy kitten.

If you're trying to put words in my mouth and say that I think Prince is an idiot, you just completely misread what I wrote, further proving my original point that you're as dumb as rocks.

Your product is overpriced.  Once again, end of story, period.. Stop trying to say it isn't.


----------



## soxmuscle (May 26, 2008)

chris mason said:


> You win, I am tired of you as well.  Keep spewing your crap.  You are wrong, but arguing with internet twits like you is rather pointless, no?



Aussie brought up excellent points.

You're just not smart enough to comprehend it.


----------



## soxmuscle (May 26, 2008)

/waiting for Chris to go cry to the mods and have every somewhat negative post about his product deleted.


----------



## chris mason (May 26, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> /waiting for Chris to go cry to the mods and have every somewhat negative post about his product deleted.


 
a) No need to wait.

b) You disparaged the site owner in a thread.  That is probably not a good idea.


----------



## soxmuscle (May 26, 2008)

chris mason said:


> a) No need to wait.
> 
> b) You disparaged the site owner in a thread.  That is probably not a good idea.



I didn't disparage Prince in the least.

Once again, you're a fluffy bunny rabbit.


----------



## Built (May 26, 2008)

Built said:


> Just to clarify here, Dr. Volek - whose research on the benefits of reduced-carbohydrate diets are well known - specifically names Nitor and Thermocin as the At Large products he supports in that link. Both of these products enhance the insulin-resistance and subsequent muscle-sparing that low-carb weight-loss dieting promotes, so his endorsement of them should be of no surprise to anyone who is well-read on the subject.
> 
> Has Dr. Volek expressed his expert opinion on your HMB formulation, Chris?





chris mason said:


> Built, try reading again, he specifically notes the fat burners, but also generally comments on the entire line.
> 
> I am sure he would be ok with the HMB formulation as he was involved in a study which I referenced which supports its efficacy.



I read it fine the first time, Chris, no worries. He didn't specifically mention your HMB formulation, and his comments pre-dated its release. I respect Volek a lot. I'd love to hear his comments on your product if he ever makes an assessment of it. 

Thanks for the reply. I'll go read some more of the citations - I love reading Volek's stuff.


----------



## chris mason (May 26, 2008)

Built said:


> I read it fine the first time, Chris, no worries. He didn't specifically mention your HMB formulation, and his comments pre-dated its release. I respect Volek a lot. I'd love to hear his comments on your product if he ever makes an assessment of it.
> 
> Thanks for the reply. I'll go read some more of the citations - I love reading Volek's stuff.


 
Built, he just sent me that endorsement about a week ago.


----------



## Built (May 26, 2008)

chris mason said:


> a) No need to wait.
> 
> b) You disparaged the site owner in a thread.  That is probably not a good idea.





soxmuscle said:


> I didn't disparage Prince in the least.




For the record, I read carefully what soxmuscle wrote, and I didn't find it in the least disparaging to Prince.

Also for the record, I have pruned a few of sox's posts at my own discretion. Mr. Mason did not contact me or anyone else to do so.

It has been established that the price is reasonable given the cost of the raw materials. Let's leave that one for now. 

Keep the discussion germane to the research and the claims. I know it's hard sometimes when emotion gets in the way, but the only thing that really matters here is product efficacy. Please stick to the actual topic, okay? Everybody play nice. Don't make me turn this car around!!!

Gaahhh. Boys. 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.


----------



## Built (May 26, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Built, he just sent me that endorsement about a week ago.



Gotcha. Maybe he'll write something up about your newest product soon.


----------



## HP666 (May 26, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> Still waiting for that explanation of what a "creatine impurity" is...



Creatine Monohydrate is sourced from two different chemicals. The first is Sodium Sarcosinate. Sodium Sarcosinate, acid, and cyanamide are brought together to form a reaction, then they go through a process of separation, washing, and drying. Then bingo out pops creatine monohydrate. This creatine monohydrate is the purest creatine monohydrate made. How do I know this? This type of creatine process is PATENTED world wide by (even has a CHINA patent) and goes by the name of CREAPURE. No other company in the world can use Sodium Sarcosinate to make creatine monohydrate.

The OTHER chemical that is used to make ALL OTHER (this is important) ALL OTHER creatines, and I donâ€™t care what type of creatine it is ALL OTHER creatines is a chemical called thiourea. Thiourea is bad stuff. Making creatine monohydrate by using thiourea is actually patented by a CHINESE company. â€œThe majority of Chinese creatine is manufactured according to a patented process (U.S. patent 6,326,513) that is very low-cost, but for which large quantities of thiourea are used. There is a considerable risk that this creatine could be contaminated with thiourea. Ingested thiourea is extremely harmful to health and is considered carcinogenic. For example, it is on the list of substances that are not allowed to be put in cosmetic products. It is forbidden to use Chinese creatine for cosmetic products. But creatine from China has not been banned as a dietary supplement. (Consumer Protection)â€
Not good huh?. To nuts with all the other creatine monohydrates out there. And to debate which one WORKS better in my book is pointless. Why? Because there is not a chance in hell that I am going to be using a creatine monohydrate from CHINA. I donâ€™t know about you but Iâ€™m 38 years old and my health is important to me.


Creapure is the only form of creatine NOT from CHINA. that includes all the other "types" of creatine...They hold the worldwide patent on making creatine from sodium sacrosinate.

So if it doesn't clearly say CREAPURE do NOT put it in your body.  That includes all the Cell Mass type products out there that contain creatine.  If it doesn't say CREAPURE DO NOT USE IT.


----------



## Travis Bell (May 26, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> Speak english, you fluffy kitten.
> 
> If you're trying to put words in my mouth and say that I think Prince is an idiot, you just completely misread what I wrote, further proving my original point that you're as dumb as rocks.
> 
> Your product is overpriced.  Once again, end of story, period.. Stop trying to say it isn't.



who the heck are you? 

man I have never seen someone take a supplement so freaking personally! You've expressed that you think the product is overpriced. ok fine, ignore the fact its been shown here that its not overpriced. You were supposedly going to prove that person wrong with bulk crap, never happened. You're right, you don't know much about training, nor do you know much about supplements. Good freaking grief, you act like you are being forced to buy it.


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 26, 2008)

HP666 said:


> Creatine Monohydrate is sourced from two different chemicals. The first is Sodium Sarcosinate. Sodium Sarcosinate, acid, and cyanamide are brought together to form a reaction, then they go through a process of separation, washing, and drying. Then bingo out pops creatine monohydrate. This creatine monohydrate is the purest creatine monohydrate made. How do I know this? This type of creatine process is PATENTED world wide by (even has a CHINA patent) and goes by the name of CREAPURE. No other company in the world can use Sodium Sarcosinate to make creatine monohydrate.
> 
> The OTHER chemical that is used to make ALL OTHER (this is important) ALL OTHER creatines, and I donï¿½â‚¬â„¢t care what type of creatine it is ALL OTHER creatines is a chemical called thiourea. Thiourea is bad stuff. Making creatine monohydrate by using thiourea is actually patented by a CHINESE company. ï¿½â‚¬??“The majority of Chinese creatine is manufactured according to a patented process (U.S. patent 6,326,513) that is very low-cost, but for which large quantities of thiourea are used. There is a considerable risk that this creatine could be contaminated with thiourea. Ingested thiourea is extremely harmful to health and is considered carcinogenic. For example, it is on the list of substances that are not allowed to be put in cosmetic products. It is forbidden to use Chinese creatine for cosmetic products. But creatine from China has not been banned as a dietary supplement. (Consumer Protection)ï¿½â‚¬ï¿½
> Not good huh?. To nuts with all the other creatine monohydrates out there. And to debate which one WORKS better in my book is pointless. Why? Because there is not a chance in hell that I am going to be using a creatine monohydrate from CHINA. I donï¿½â‚¬â„¢t know about you but Iï¿½â‚¬â„¢m 38 years old and my health is important to me.
> ...



I'd really like to see solid evidence showing that creatine from China can cause cancer-which is basically what you're saying in a nutshell.  What _hasn't_ been accused of being carcinogenic at some point in time?  Your assumption seems to be that every creatine brand besides creapure is dangerous- that's unfounded and ridiculous.  

Even if you were correct, that's still far from the issue at hand.  Telling someone they should buy a $50 product because it contains creapure and not the "cheap" creatine is just as ridiculous.

This thread has gotten a little off topic, but to sum it up, basically every single supplement out there that is pushed by these companies is one of two things

1) Over-priced (ingredients can be bought much cheaper)
2) Flat-out doesn't work, or the extremely minimal benefit is not worth the cost (HMB in this case)

*Very few* supplements do not fall into one of these two categories.  I'm not picking on At Large Nutrition, I'm picking on every single company out there.  It's all hyped up junk, or if it isn't junk, it's overpriced.


----------



## nni (May 26, 2008)

prolab does not use creapure, and prolab has one of the best qc standards in the industry. saying use creapure or nothing is not accurate.


----------



## lucifuge (May 26, 2008)

wow, I leave for a couple days and the log goes nuts again....
anyway, still taking the RESULTS, however due to running around all weekend and eating a lot of tasty, bad food my training performance hasn't been the greatest.
Trained back yesterday and everything felt ungodly heavy.
Tomorrow will be better.
Happy arguing folks.


----------



## HP666 (May 26, 2008)

You guys take whatever you want, I really could care less. Thiourea is not good and I personally wouldn't ingest anything made with it.


----------



## HP666 (May 26, 2008)

nni said:


> prolab does not use creapure, and prolab has one of the best qc standards in the industry. saying use creapure or nothing is not accurate.



What I was saying is fact: it's either Creapure, made in Germany, OR made with Thiourea.  That IS a fact.  My personal OPINION was that it's Creapure or nothing. Just wanted to clear that up.  As I said, Thiourea is bad.  I don't want to get in a pissing contest here, sorry if it seems that way; I'm just trying to pass along info that may help people make informed decisions.


----------



## chris mason (May 26, 2008)

nni said:


> prolab does not use creapure, and prolab has one of the best qc standards in the industry. saying use creapure or nothing is not accurate.


 
Just to be clear, I never said that.  I said that there is a difference in the quality of creatine.  TX goofball took exception and asked for proof.  When provided it he went to another whine session about something else without admitting he was wrong.  Sad really.


----------



## Built (May 26, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Read this article: What's Really in Your Supplements? - An Update on Creatine by Will Brink
> 
> I am sure you will find some problem with it, but perhaps you can take it up with Will who is a member here.



Mr. Brink is clearly in favour of good quality creatine. 
<click for Will Brink's review of Creatine from his book "Body Buiding Revealed">

However, unless he's changed his mind since 2006, he's none too fond of HMB. In fact, when asked what he thought was the biggest supplement scam in the last 20 years, he agreed that in addition to hot stuff and the cybergenics total bodybuilding system, HMB "sucked". Will Brink reviews HMB in his book "Body Building Revealed". I'd be interested to read what he says about it.


----------



## aussie (May 26, 2008)

Built said:


> Please stick to the actual topic, okay? Everybody play nice. Don't make me turn this car around!!!



Okay, but he started it! 

Apparently since I'm an "ignorant, biased, internet twit" in the eyes of Chris for pointing out the issues in Results, I went ahead and checked out Will Brink's research on HMB and beta-alanine since he's listed as one of the "great minds" for this site. 

Neither HMB or BA receives Brink's seal of approval. Not even close actually especially when it comes to being effective or showing strength/hypertrophy benefits. 

Incidentally, ALN Results is mentioned in Brink's forum. Within this topic Will reiterates that he's not impressed with HMB, states that 80g of sugar is not recommended other than post-workout, the beta-alanine dose is on the low end, and that micronized creapure is dirt cheap (so why pay this much for it). One of the mods in Will's forums (who I believe is a strength behemoth) is even less impressed with Results. With regards to the ingredients he comments that the creatine "is the only useful ingredient in this product" and that "it would be more cost-effective to buy it separately and in bulk". 

Now surely we can't say that Will's research is biased (but then again, what would I be biased towards... common sense perhaps)? In an earlier link I provided a link to a HMB review that's solid and the site from which it's published also has no hidden motives or agendas. 

I'll be sticking with my 1,000g of Creapure creatine mono that I got for $22 and will last me until we're in 2009.


----------



## aussie (May 26, 2008)

Travis Bell said:


> ...ignore the fact its been shown here that its not overpriced.



Fact? What fact says that it's not overpriced? It's 50 fucking dollars for a 30-day supply. 

You can get a 200-day supply of the the same Creapure creatine for $22. Several pounds of dextrose won't even run you $10. 

So what are you paying for that makes Results "reasonably" priced: beta-alanine and HMB?? Two supps that have been shown to do jack-shit. You'd be better off dropping these ingredients and replacing them with colostrum so you at least know you're getting something that drives a premium price tag.


----------



## Travis Bell (May 26, 2008)

*sigh*

I give up. At the end of the day, I'll keep taking Results and benching 700+lbs. What you guys do is up to you. 

Lucifuge - congrats on your PRs and thanks for trying this supplement out. I'm really glad you have had success that many others have had with it.


----------



## TexanTA1996 (May 26, 2008)

aussie said:


> Fact? What fact says that it's not overpriced? It's 50 fucking dollars for a 30-day supply.
> 
> You can get a 200-day supply of the the same Creapure creatine for $22. Several pounds of dextrose won't even run you $10.
> 
> So what are you paying for that makes Results "reasonably" priced: beta-alanine and HMB?? Two supps that have been shown to do jack-shit. You'd be better off dropping these ingredients and replacing them with colostrum so you at least know you're getting something that drives a premium price tag.



That's the problem, they're convinced that HMB is such an amazing supplement despite it's disappointing performance in numerous studies.

If HMB was as great as these guys are saying, every athlete in the world from sprinters to polo players would be using it.  Most people have never even heard of it because it was discredited a long time ago.



Travis Bell said:


> *sigh*
> 
> I give up. At the end of the day, I'll keep taking Results and benching 700+lbs. What you guys do is up to you.



Right, because RESULTS is the cause of your 700lb bench, ha.  I'm sure cell tech is why Cutler was able to finally take the Olympia title as well.


----------



## thewicked (May 26, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> That's the problem, they're convinced that HMB is such an amazing supplement despite it's disappointing performance in numerous studies.
> 
> If HMB was as great as these guys are saying, every athlete in the world from sprinters to polo players would be using it.  Most people have never even heard of it because it was discredited a long time ago.
> 
> ...



lmao the olympia is like washington.. the candidate with the most "support money" behind them aka most money spent by a sponsor to sponsor the olympia gets the win! 


don't get me started on bodybuiding. HAHA 

and travis's bench is accredited to hard ass work, dedication, mental toughness, etc... great supplementation is just one more thing that helps him stay at teh top of his game and perform at that kinda level.  Could travis have gotten there without it? Why sure..but could he recover as quickly, GAIN as quickly, and keep at it without it?  We won't find out because travis loves the stuff!


----------



## aussie (May 26, 2008)

TexanTA1996 said:


> That's the problem, they're convinced that HMB is such an amazing supplement despite it's disappointing performance in numerous studies.



C'mon, no one's that stupid.


----------



## soxmuscle (May 26, 2008)

aussie said:


> Okay, but he started it!
> 
> Apparently since I'm an "ignorant, biased, internet twit" in the eyes of Chris for pointing out the issues in Results, I went ahead and checked out Will Brink's research on HMB and beta-alanine since he's listed as one of the "great minds" for this site.
> 
> ...



Excellent post.  Lets bump this, so it doesn't get overlooked by people being duped by the peanut gallery that is Chris Mason.


----------



## thewicked (May 26, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> I'm a big boy, built.  I didn't ask for it to be edited, nor do I think it should be edited.
> 
> The product is completely overpriced.  Not by $5 dollars, not by $10 dollars, hell.. not even by $20 dollars.  The reason I'm so outspoken is because of jackasses like you and Chris who constantly try to drown out the completely valid opinions of the naysayers.
> 
> ...


----------



## thewicked (May 27, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> You and Chris Mason can't form a legible sentence in the English language.
> 
> Why would I want biased ebonics.. err "advice"?



The internet is considerd an "informal" tool of communication when it comes to blogs, forums, email, etc. in the general community that is the world. Forgive me for not using proper puncuation, sentence structure, spelling at times (because I don't feel like going back to edit my post. Yes I'm that lazy.), etc.  when it comes to my posting on IM.

How was that?


----------



## thewicked (May 27, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> Oh, and a little bit of advice.
> 
> You've made it abundantly clear that your only on this board to increase ALN's customers/profits, writing legibly and not looking like a retard _could_ help.



Seen any of the other posts I've written in this forum besides those only in the supplement area?


I'm sure others would beg to differ.


----------



## soxmuscle (May 27, 2008)

thewicked said:


> Seen any of the other posts I've written in this forum besides those only in the supplement area?
> 
> 
> I'm sure others would beg to differ.



I actually have and your journal is pretty respectable, I'll give you that.


----------



## thewicked (May 27, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> I actually have and your journal is pretty respectable, I'll give you that.



Which is why I try to spread the knowledge I've gathered in the training wise be it supplementation, etc. around so people can hopefully learn from my mistakes and not run into the problems or issues I have over the years and hopefully help at least one person reach their goals no matter what those goals might be.  Support those that support the sport! Everyone was a newb once. Got to spread the wealth even if it's only knowledge which, if applied right, is worth more than any dollar value out there.  I have no beef with you sir. Even if you don't agree with my thoughts or views on supplementation, I do my best to bring something to the table here at IM.


----------



## Will Brink (May 27, 2008)

nni said:


> prolab does not use creapure, and prolab has one of the best qc standards in the industry. saying use creapure or nothing is not accurate.



Prolab always used Creapure and was the largest distributor of Creapure in the US at one time. If they have stopped using Creapure, shame on them, but when I did consulting work for them, the owners were sticklers for using Creapure.


----------



## Will Brink (May 27, 2008)

Built said:


> Mr. Brink is clearly in favour of good quality creatine.
> <click for Will Brink's review of Creatine from his book "Body Buiding Revealed">
> 
> However, unless he's changed his mind since 2006, he's none too fond of HMB. In fact, when asked what he thought was the biggest supplement scam in the last 20 years, he agreed that in addition to hot stuff and the cybergenics total bodybuilding system, HMB "sucked". Will Brink reviews HMB in his book "Body Building Revealed". I'd be interested to read what he says about it.



I don't consider HMB a total scam like other products out there, but there is better $$$ spent, that's for sure. HMB, KIC, GAKIC, etc are all fully reviewed in the ebook yes, with supporting data, or lack there of, covered, as well as "real world" feedback, etc.


----------



## aussie (May 27, 2008)

WillBrink said:


> I don't consider HMB a total scam like other products out there, but there is better $$$ spent, that's for sure. HMB, KIC, GAKIC, etc are all fully reviewed in the ebook yes, with supporting data, or lack there of, covered, as well as "real world" feedback, etc.


Thanks Will for the input and as a result welcome to the internet twit group. I wonder what our membership dues will be?


----------



## workingatit43 (May 27, 2008)

Lucifuge this has been a great log and I feel that anyone who has not tried a product should be bad mouthing it. There are people out here and I include myself that part of what we do is rep(and try to help sales)as these companies and this board need support to survive.

I really have not found anyone here recently that just go out of the way to pimp a product we do not only rep but also try to help people as best we can


----------



## chris mason (May 27, 2008)

One point being sorely missed by the "twits" is that HMB is part of a total formula which makes said formula better.  As someone who formulates products, I think it incumbent upon me to create the best product I can within reasonable cost parameters.  That is EXACTLY why I included HMB.  You will note that I do not offer HMB by itself.  

Will, I appreciate your feedback and referenced your article because I feel it was on the money.


----------



## Built (May 27, 2008)

chris mason said:


> One point being sorely missed by the "twits" is that HMB is part of a total formula which makes said formula better.  As someone who formulates products, I think it incumbent upon me to create the best product I can within reasonable cost parameters.  That is EXACTLY why I included HMB.  You will note that I do not offer HMB by itself.



Chris, 

Just to clarify - although it has been established that HMB does nothing on its own (hence, why you don't sell it as a stand-alone), it has a positive, interactive effect when combined as you have done with the other ingredients (creatine, dextrose, and BA) in your product?


----------



## chris mason (May 27, 2008)

Built said:


> Chris,
> 
> Just to clarify - although it has been established that HMB does nothing on its own (hence, why you don't sell it as a stand-alone), it has a positive, interactive effect when combined as you have done with the other ingredients (creatine, dextrose, and BA) in your product?


 
Built, you are allowing some terrible things to go on in this thread and I have zero interest in addressing you.

Chris


----------



## aussie (May 27, 2008)

Built said:


> Chris,
> 
> Just to clarify - although it has been established that HMB does nothing on its own (hence, why you don't sell it as a stand-alone), it has a positive, interactive effect when combined as you have done with the other ingredients (creatine, dextrose, and BA) in your product?



That's exactly what I was thinking. Chris, could you please pony up the research that shows combining HMB with dextrose, creatine, and/or beta-alanine makes it an effective supplement.


----------



## Built (May 27, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Built, you are allowing some terrible things to go on in this thread and I have zero interest in addressing you.
> 
> Chris




You have NO idea how much I've pruned this thread.


----------



## aussie (May 27, 2008)

workingatit43 said:


> Lucifuge this has been a great log and I feel that anyone who has not tried a product should be bad mouthing it.



What kind of bass-ackwards logic is that? I haven't tried crystal meth but I don't need to in order to know it's not going to be healthy. I don't have to use Hydroxycut either to understand it's garbage. And while I'm sure a barium enema has its medical virtues I don't need one to see what it does. 

So you're saying we all need to place an order for an ALN supp just so we can have some god-given right to discuss its merits? That's a crock of shit. The ingredients and dosing recommendations are clearly listed on the label. That's all you need to make an assessment once due diligence is done via independent scientific research and a simple cost comparison analysis.


----------



## aussie (May 27, 2008)

Built said:


> You have NO idea how much I've pruned this thread.



I'm guessing that's an understatement. More likely you've had to go through this topic with a tree shredder. I don't envy you mods but I'm sure that's why you get paid the big bucks.


----------



## ZECH (May 27, 2008)

Any Posts That Are Not Directly Related To The Thread From This Point Will Be Deleted. Enough Bickering.


----------



## Built (May 27, 2008)

Built said:


> Chris,
> 
> Just to clarify - although it has been established that HMB does nothing on its own (hence, why you don't sell it as a stand-alone), it has a positive, interactive effect when combined as you have done with the other ingredients (creatine, dextrose, and BA) in your product?





chris mason said:


> Built, you are allowing some terrible things to go on in this thread and I have zero interest in addressing you.
> 
> Chris



Does this mean you don't know?


----------



## Arnold (May 27, 2008)

This Is A Journal Thread, Please Stop Debating ALN's Products Here!


----------



## soxmuscle (May 27, 2008)

Prince said:


> This Is A Journal Thread, Please Stop Debating ALN's Products Here!



Okay, new thread it is.

Sorry, Luc.  Great journal.  Keep up the good work.


----------



## lucifuge (May 27, 2008)

*Day 27
5/27/08*
I've become fond of taking the RESULTS mixed with a scoop of vanilla whey.
*Standing Military*:
135 x 8
165 x 8
175 x 5
185 x 1 *PR * _(tried for 2, but completely failed...)_
*Arnolds*:
40's x 12, 12, 10
*Rear Delt Rows*:
115 x 12, 12, 10

*Side Laterals*:
40's x 6, 6
Not the best work out, but overall pretty decent


----------



## lucifuge (May 27, 2008)

soxmuscle said:


> Okay, new thread it is.
> 
> Sorry, Luc.  Great journal.  Keep up the good work.



it's cool sox, sorry I snapped back at ya.


----------



## workingatit43 (May 28, 2008)

Another good work out bro


----------



## lucifuge (May 30, 2008)

*Day 28
5/28/08*
off

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Day 29
5/29/08*
Set another *deadlift* *PR *last night.
365 x 3   Woohoo!
Other than that, nothing new to report.


----------



## lucifuge (May 30, 2008)

workingatit43 said:


> Another good work out bro



Thanks, would have been better if I hadn't dropped the frikkin 185 on military presses, but, such is life.


----------



## lucifuge (May 30, 2008)

*Day 30
5/30/08*
Finished up the last of the RESULTS tonight.
*Low Incline Bench*:
135 x 12
225 x 8
275 x 4 + 1 _(r/p)_ *PR*
285 x 2  *PR*
225 x 6, 6
*Pec Deck*:
100 x 15
120 x 13
130 x 11
*Overhead Extensions*:
3 sets 40 x 8 each arm
*Rope Pressdowns*:
60 x 13 _(r/p)_ 10 _(r/p)_ 8


Good stuff.
I'll weigh in and take measurements tomorrow just to be as comprehensive as possible. I don't think there's been much hypertrophy, but I've definitely seen some substantial strength gains since starting this log. I think in total I've set a dozen PR's over the past month and that's nothing to sneeze at.


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## chris mason (May 31, 2008)

lucifuge said:


> *Day 30*
> *5/30/08*
> Finished up the last of the RESULTS tonight.
> *Low Incline Bench*:
> ...


 
Good work!

How does that saying go?  The proof is in the pudding?


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## lucifuge (Jun 1, 2008)

Ok, here's the 'stats'
Just weighed in at 227 lbs with 19.7% bf (again averaged from three separate tests with digital caliper)
so +10 lbs over the last month

measurements: (reference only)
upper arms: 17 1/4"
forearms: 13 1/2"
chest: 46 1/2"  (wife helped this time, so it's more accurate that original measurement)
Waist: 36" ... but I no longer need a belt to wear 36" jeans... so it's crept up there a bit.
Quads: 26"
Calves: 16" 

So, in summation.... RESULTS is a good, if not great supplement.
There has been some foolish bickering over price and ingredients and yadda yadda yadda... but at the end of the day, I've been using this stuff for the last month and I've made some nice strength gains, and even a little bit of growth thrown in as a bonus.
Now, do not misunderstand me... I'm not saying this is a magic potion.
It's a _supplement_ , all it does is compliment and support your training and nutrition. You still gotta work your ass off, but it helps.... alot.
It may be cost prohibitive to some, but personally, it doesn't seem really over the top to me. I'll continue to use it. Not religously, simply because I seem to be rather sensitive to the sugar content, and I'm not a big fan of acne. Anyway, bottom line, it's a good, if not great product. If you can afford it, I suggest picking some up. $50 sounds expensive, but if you think about it and put it into context of every day life, $50 really isn't a whole lot of money. 
All my rambling aside, 'RESULTS' is good stuff. Check it out if ya get a chance.


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## lucifuge (Jun 1, 2008)

chris mason said:


> Good work!
> 
> How does that saying go?  The proof is in the pudding?



Heh, yeah, thanks Chris.
Hmmmmm, pudding....
but yeah, it's good stuff.

Thanks for letting me try it out.


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## workingatit43 (Jun 1, 2008)

Great log bro


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## lucifuge (Jun 1, 2008)

workingatit43 said:


> Great log bro



Hey thanks man,
I tried to make it as thorough as possible.


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## chris mason (Jun 1, 2008)

Great log!

Thank you and you are welcome.


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## soxmuscle (Jun 2, 2008)

You are free to leave anytime you see fit.


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## thewicked (Jun 2, 2008)

damn luci! Way to put in the fuckin work! A 285lb incline and 10lbs gained? 

That incline is smoking for one..nad you definately put it to it..i told you you'd like the stuff!  Congrats on the pr's and the gains..you definately earned it with the work you put in. Results definately delivers.


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