# Best ephedrine-free thermogenic?



## jasonbrunt (Apr 30, 2003)

just what the subject asks...What do people think is the best ephedrine-free thermogenic?????????????

People can say what they want...but I will not take ephedra anymore for any reason, there is a reason it's about to be pulled off shelves!!


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## Tank316 (May 1, 2003)

ive heard good things, but you'll have to try it for yourself. the reason ephedra has been pulled, come from the people who abuse a supplement


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## Twin Peak (May 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Tank316 *_
> the reason ephedra has been pulled, come from the people who abuse a supplement



Amen.  Gotta love the media.  And those who don't question it.


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## DaMayor (May 2, 2003)

Jesus was a _Jedi_ ? O-kay.

TP, I must agree....like lambs to the slaughter.  
Ephedra is no more dangerous than clinical obesity, or smoking, or excessive/binge drinking. People need to dig a little deeper before having mis-information induced panic attacks.


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## Twin Peak (May 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> Jesus was a _Jedi_ ? O-kay.
> 
> TP, I must agree....like lambs to the slaughter.
> Ephedra is no more dangerous than clinical obesity, or smoking, or excessive/binge drinking. People need to dig a little deeper before having mis-information induced panic attacks.



Sanity.  Thank you.

I'd say less dangerous, then all of those things.

(Run for the hills, the Three Headed Ephedra Monster is coming)


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## DaMayor (May 2, 2003)

Allow me to re-phrase that....._Less Dangerous_ ....and I would also like to retract _excessive/binge drinking_ and replace this with _Driving_ after excessive/binge drinking. 

Back to the original topic.....
I have tried a certain ephedra-free product, which shall remain nameless, and found it to be as effective as a rubber shot-gun barrel. On the other hand, I have used the same product _with_ ephedra, and found that it did fuel my workouts effectively...although I was a bit shakey...usually more talkative (if possible) afterwards. 
With the exception of being told to shut up more frequently by my spouse, I am pleased to say that I am alive and well, and have not suffered from any cardiac related conditions, or loss of.......excuse me, I'm having a slight pain in my che..s...............ARGH! *collapses*


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## Twin Peak (May 2, 2003)

Let's clear thinks up, very few legal substances actually have "thermogenic" properties, so it is likely that any non-E based "thermogenic" is bunk.


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## DaMayor (May 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Let's clear thinks up, very few legal substances actually have "thermogenic" properties, so it is likely that any non-E based "thermogenic" is bunk.




 True.....at least, based on what I've read here, and _other_ sites, those 'legal' substances...at least those from food/herbal sources, offer only a minimal thermogenic effect.
(TCD.... insert dry wit here)


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## Var (May 2, 2003)

I don't agree that Ephedra should be illegal/pulled from shelves.  I think you should be able to take whatever you want at your own risk.  At the same time, I don't blame him for not wanting to take it.  I've sworn the stuff off myself due to some scary side effects.  To each his own...


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## easyb (May 2, 2003)

*ephedrine free*

I used to take ephedra and thought it was o.k. now I have tried xenedrine-ephedra free and think it works just as well.  just my two cents.


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## gr81 (May 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by jasonbrunt *_
> People can say what they want...but I will not take ephedra anymore for any reason, there is a reason it's about to be pulled off shelves!!



your right, there is a reason that it will be banned soon, because of morons like you who don't know shit about the supplement and make general, ignorant statements about how bad it is for you like this one. You obviously haven't done any reading for yourself and are going off what the general public thinks about it. there is NOTHING wrong with using ephedrine as a supp unless you have pre-existing conditions or you abuse it, which is true for most things. you may not like it, but don't make ignorants statements about things you know nothing about.


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## DanK (May 2, 2003)

And then there is the other kind of moron that accuses someone else of being a moron for having a different opinion. easyb didn't exactly give you a lot of information about what they know, just that they know ephedra isn't for them.

There is a reason it's being pulled off shelves, sure it's about as lame as firestone tires being recalled (seriously, how many people died from that anyway? they were probably driving abusively or at least driving cars that had other pre-existing conditions). I'm not saying it's being pulled off for a good reason, but it's being pulled for a reason (maybe being pulled that is). Personally I've tried the stuff, I didn't like it, stuff made me extremely nausious (usually if I was even remotely hungry it'd get really bad), I saw someone recommend (I think Dr Pain but not 100%) to someone to spread out the dosage at more intervals during the day (so if a dose = 2 pills every 6 hours take 1 pill every 3 hours) which sounds like a good idea for possibly avoiding some of the sideeffects I had, and if I had seen any results from the use of ephedra other than feeling nausious on a regular basis I'd probably give that a try.


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## easyb (May 3, 2003)

I wasn't saying anything was wrong with ephedra. I was just passing a note about something I tried other than ephedra that I thought was o.k. So I hope that that statement GR81 wrote after my comment wasn't intended for me.


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## Newbie (May 3, 2003)

*Re: ephedrine free*



> _*Originally posted by easyb *_
> I used to take ephedra and thought it was o.k. now I have tried xenedrine-ephedra free and think it works just as well.  just my two cents.




I also have been using the xenedrine EFX  Seems to be working for me also.
I think one of the most important things to remember about these thermogenics, with or with-out ephedrine, is to follow the directions on the bottle.  Being in EMS I have responded on several calls where people have taken double or tripple the recomended dose and started getting tremors and severe tachycardia.  
Remember, they put those directions on the bottle for a reason.

Hope this helps and didn't sound too much like I was preaching.


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## DanK (May 3, 2003)

Sorry, I misread who the quote was from, it was actually jasonbrunt he called a moron... oops.


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## gr81 (May 4, 2003)

Not everyone has to like the supp, but to bad mouth it like he did and say it needs to be pulled off the shelve lets me know that he hasn't educated himself about ephedrine, and therefore is making ignorant uneducated statements. I'm am so tired of people talking about how bad it is and people blaming this supp for all the worlds problems. I could care less if this guys uses it or not, it just seems to be the new trend to put the spotlight on how it is killing athletes alll the time, which is not true. Look how many other every day items are responsible for many more deaths than ephedrine is. Bottom line: if you don't want to use ephedrine, than don't, but don't try to make it out to be some horrible drug that needs to be banned, b/c I use it responsibly and it is a valuable drug to me in many respects, and I don't want to have to go buy ephedrine on the black market or sneak it into the country. educate yourselves before you make descisions.


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## jasonbrunt (May 5, 2003)

gr81...you talking about educated decisions makes me laugh.  If you actually read my thread you would have seen the word "anymore".  As in, I won't take it anymore!  I didn't "bad-mouth" the product.  I've taken hydroxycut and ripped fuel and I have had nothing but bad experiences.  I followed directions and whenever I did anything active, my heart would race to the point of jumping out of my chest.  I could care less about the media and some of you people(gr81) need to get lives instead of trolling message forums for people to hack on.  I just asked people a question and hoped for some useful information in return.  So much for that...


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## jasonbrunt (May 5, 2003)

by the way...I am not obese, I don't smoke, and I don't drink...So why would I take something that is just as harmful?


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## DaMayor (May 5, 2003)




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## Var (May 5, 2003)

First of all "gr8", jason didnt make any uneducated comments.  He spoke of his personal opinion about a supplement.  Isn't that part of the reason we come here and post?  Personally, I dont see any value in a board where everyone feels the same way about everything.  I can say from personal experience that Ephedra was very bad for ME.  I have zero preexisting conditions which would put me at higher risk than anyone else, I used less than the recommended dosage, and didn't see side effects until several months after I started using it.  I was getting heart palpitations so bad I seriously thought I was going to have a heart attack.  I stopped using it and continued to have them for several weeks.  Now after about a month off the stuff I'm feeling normal again.  Does any of this mean it should be banned???  NO!  Should I be able to post my experiences on this board without being attacked by the "outlaw ridahs" in the house who get off on slamming people who have different opinions.  I think so!


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## Newbie (May 5, 2003)

Right on var!


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## Twin Peak (May 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by jasonbrunt *_
> People can say what they want...but I will not take ephedra anymore for any reason, there is a reason it's about to be pulled off shelves!!



I am sorry fellas, but this statement is irresponsible.  It is filled with hyperbole, not opinion based on experience.  It has a sense of "the sky is falling", not reasoned out opinion.

It is to this which I originally responded.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  If he stated, in a well reasoned statement, that he is looking for an alternative because he tried it, and experienced effects he did not like, and stated, as a matter of fact, what they were, or that he did not wish to try it because he has heard that it may cause X, Y, and Z, then with this I would have not problem.

But to say it is bad "because there must be a reason...." is silly, immature, and irresponsible.


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## Var (May 5, 2003)

If the flaw in his statement was that he didn't state a valid reason for his feelings, Maybe we should ask him to clarify before bashing him.  If he steps up and says, "I think Ephedra is bad because it kills baseball players".  I'll shut up and even join in on the much deserved lashings.  If he had bad experiences that led him to feel this way, I dont see what's silly, immature, or irresponsible about telling us how he feels about it.


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## gr81 (May 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by jasonbrunt *_
> by the way...I am not obese, I don't smoke, and I don't drink...So why would I take something that is just as harmful?




HA HA HA. How is it just as harmful as drinking or smoking, tell me please since you ARE educated about this, please I am dying for you to tell me. You all are taking my comments the wrong way. I am not just bashing him because he doesn't agree with me, I don't care if you like ephedrine or not, but I do care when people say that it needs to be pulled off the shelf and he doesn't have any type of info to back that statement up. If you don't like the supp, fine, I couldn't give less of a fuck if you do or not, but recognize that I have done the research and the reading and I am tired of people making statements about how bad it is when it they just personally don't like it. To each his own, don't take it if you don't want to, but it certainly doesn't need to be taken off the shelves. People just need to be responsible and listen to their bodies. As for VAR who obviously didn't read my posts, and thinks that I am just slamming people for fun, don't try to make me into some bad guy, I just don't want to listen to people bad mouth the drugs that I like so eat a dick up


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## ZECH (May 5, 2003)

*Re: Re: Best ephedrine-free thermogenic?*



> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> I am sorry fellas, but this statement is irresponsible.  It is filled with hyperbole, not opinion based on experience.  It has a sense of "the sky is falling", not reasoned out opinion.
> 
> It is to this which I originally responded.
> ...


I have to agree with this also................
And just because you have no pre-existing conditions doesn't mean ephedra will work for you. I know several people with no apparent pre-exist. conditions that cannot take it. That is why with any supp like this you must ease into it to assess your ability to take it. It also sounded to me that since he was having problems with it that it should be banned. If you are going to disagree with a product, you should state why it did not work for you. Anything less is misleading and bad information to everyone else!


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## gr81 (May 5, 2003)

^^^
Thank you! That is the only point I was trying to make.


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## Twin Peak (May 6, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Var *_
> If the flaw in his statement was that he didn't state a valid reason for his feelings, Maybe we should ask him to clarify before bashing him.  If he steps up and says, "I think Ephedra is bad because it kills baseball players".  I'll shut up and even join in on the much deserved lashings.  If he had bad experiences that led him to feel this way, I dont see what's silly, immature, or irresponsible about telling us how he feels about it.



It is his comment, without context, that makes it irresponisble in and of itself.  It perpetuates falacy, and ignorance, as likely others will read it, again without context or reason, or logic, and further perpetuate such nonsense.  Such is the nature of the internet.

State clearly why a product or a supplement does not work for you, poses danger, etc., or hold your tongue.  Its really that simple.


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## DaMayor (May 6, 2003)

"Man must cease attributing his problems to his environment, and learn again to exercise his will -- his personal responsibility."
Albert Schweitzer (1875 - 1965)

Next!


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## racoon02 (May 6, 2003)

I like Ripped Fuel


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## Twin Peak (May 6, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by racoon02 *_
> I like Ripped Fuel



Did you read any of my posts???


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## DaMayor (May 6, 2003)

Yeah, "Nature of the Internet, yada yada yada"....so what's your point TP? *falling out of chair*....


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## Twin Peak (May 6, 2003)

Jeez, Louise....


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## eskimo515 (May 6, 2003)

As someone who works in marketing and worked in politics for a while and sees the behind the back bull that happens in the boardrooms, I can tell you that one of the big issues with ephedra is regulation.  The big dog pharmaceutical companies want to control the weight loss market and put supp companies out of business.  Why?  So they can control the cash.  Are politicians concerned about the deaths, sure they are, but they are more concerned about donations and Met-Rx does not donate as much as Pfizer.

Do I believe people should be able to take Ephedra products?  Yes, but not because I take them (which I do), but because its not the government role in telling me what I should do with my body.  And someone compared this issue to drinking and I think that's true.  Try to take Ephedra off the market and you will have the same problem as with prohibition...kids taking crap pills off the black market, without any idea what they are taking.  Then the crap will really hit the fan.  Just be smart and follow the directions.  If it gives you a bad reaction, then stop taking it, but dont damn it to hell for everyone else.  If you have an allergy to milk, you don't protest that everyone should stop drinking milk.  You just dont drink it!  My five cents!


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## racoon02 (May 6, 2003)

Yes, I did. But what does that have to do with me saying what Brand I like?


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## DaMayor (May 6, 2003)

Jeeze, Louise....cubed.


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## Twin Peak (May 6, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> Jeeze, Louise....cubed.



Thank you.


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## DaMayor (May 6, 2003)

*Concept as coin......*

Some cannot recognize the gravity of the situation......


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## Newbie (May 7, 2003)

OK to try and ease the argument in this forum, here is an article posted on this site earlier that I found:

 

Archive: YOUR NUTRITIONAL JOURNEY: Fat Loss Hazards and Roadblocks
Posted on Saturday, February 01 @ 12:00:00 MST  


Written by: Andrew_Natale & Leah_Wynne


Top Ten Myths of Losing Fat


#10 Thermogenics: Excessive Speed, DANGER!

Thermogenics are a catch-all phrase for products that elevate body temperature. An elevation of body temperature leads to a higher metabolic rate, and therefore, more calories are burned. We are using it here to mean the common, everyday E/C/A (ephedrine/caffeine/aspirin) stacks. While the mechanisms of such products are beyond the scope of this article, they are commonly used for energy prior to a workout or during the day, increasing one's metabolism to accelerate fat loss, and, unfortunately, for the simple fact that many individuals have developed a psychological and physiological dependence and cannot function adequately without them. 

Having greater energy for a workout is perhaps the only viable use of the E/C/A stack. This can actually be accomplished by ephedrine (ephedra alkaloids), caffeine, or even green tea in place of the whole stack. If the use is infrequent and a person does not develop a tolerance, E/C/A stacks are beneficial in the stress/adaptation process and overcoming plateaus in weight-lifting. 


The downside, however, is continued use or abuse. Common sense dictates that the body, being an intelligent organism, if chemically revved up to 110% for 4 - 6 hours, will, in turn, compensate at 90% for an equal amount of time. The net effect to many people's surprise, is zero--especially for people seeking fat loss. However, body weight loss can occur in many due to the appetite suppression characteristics of these products. 

The unseen danger that we see on a daily basis in our business is the downward spiral that many individuals incur on these products. Not only do they feel lifeless and non-energetic without them, but hair loss, anxiety, depression and gauntness develop in many individuals. One needs to recognize that ephedra, ephedra alkaloids, and ephedrine are precursors to amphetamines and methamphetamines. All of these products, when overused or abused, severely tax the central nervous system and adrenal function. It is now recognized that a form of chronic fatigue, called "Adrenal Burnout Syndrome" can partially be attributed to the overuse of stimulants. 


Here is the link to this entire article and some others you might find informative>>> http://www.ironmagazine.com/modules.php?name=News&new_topic=4

I hope this is helpful to those of you who are just getting mad at each other.


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## Twin Peak (May 7, 2003)

That peice is a well written article by DP/W8.

I, and many others more well versed that I, take umbrage with at least the following statements:

"Having greater energy for a workout is perhaps the only viable use of the E/C/A stack."

"Common sense dictates that the body, being an intelligent organism, if chemically revved up to 110% for 4 - 6 hours, will, in turn, compensate at 90% for an equal amount of time."

I do not wish to debate this here, but studies show that by activating the beta-2 receptors of the adrenergic system, ephedrine can increase total metabolic rate throughtout the day, if used in conjuntcion with caffiened, and dosed and spaced properly.

Moreover, science is now tending to show that although tolerance builds up to the "stimulant" effects (thus, you no longer feel a buzz, have extra energy, have increased heart rate, etc) ephedrine's thermogenic abilities actually INCREASE over time.

I am saying that this article simply provides one side of the coin, and ephedrine has its place in fat loss and bodycomposition maintenance.

Moreover, this article does not address ephedrine nnutrient partitioning effects, which make it a valuable recomposition tool, as well, as post-cycle tool.

To dismiss E/C outright is a mistake.  

However, I am not saying that there are no downsides, or that it is for everyone.  Like any supplement, the pros and cons must be weighed, and when introducing any substance into your body, you should tread carefully until you know how it will effect you.

That said, my point IN THIS ENTIRE THREAD before this post, was that silly, unsubstantiated statements, for or against a product, susbtance or whatever, have no place.


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## DaMayor (May 7, 2003)

Bump.

Now, would everybody please use the exits in the rear of the building, we can re-group at the popcorn stand, and we will then move on to the training forum at 12:30. Thank you for your cooperation. Buh-Bye now.


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## Arnold (May 7, 2003)

I am just happy to see that some members are actually going to the main site and reading some of the articles!


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## Newbie (May 7, 2003)

:bounce:


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## jasonbrunt (May 8, 2003)

It's a shame that no one here reads the replys to a post BEFORE they write.  gr81...Someone at the start of this mess posted the obesity/smoking/drinking analogy so pay attention or don't speak.

Supp lawyer...you aswell need to read previous replys as I already explained my experiences (feeling like my heart was going to explode on recommended dose!!) with 2 different supps containing ephedrine.


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## jasonbrunt (May 8, 2003)

I am sorry everyone for this thread.

I forgot this forum is a communist society where I am no longer allowed to express my own personal beliefs and/or experiences without being ridiculed for my actions.  If someone were to read my original post and not do any further research before forming an opinion, that is their problem-not mine!!  What's next people, video games and rock music cause school shootings?


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## gr81 (May 8, 2003)

what the fuck are you talking about, keep my name out of your fuckin mouth. You are the one who compaired ephedrine to drinking and smoking in terms of its harmfulness, and you said it needs to be pulled off the shelf.


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## Jodi (May 8, 2003)

Um everyone give this guy a break.  We are all guilty of posting something in our own point of views.   BFD!!!! K?  He came here asking a question and you flame him for having an opinion, whether or not the opinion is biased, he still had a question.

Jason - I (personally) also cannot use Ephendrine.  I have tried everthing like creating my own stacks to using premade such as Hydroxycut, Xenedrine etc.  My heart races as well and its scary so I just threw out all ephedra products.  I've chosen to stay away from thermos because they don't appear to do me any good.  No I don't have any pre-existing conditions either

If you want something before a good workout I've had success with Green Tea or caffeine pills.


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## Twin Peak (May 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> Um everyone give this guy a break.  We are all guilty of posting something in our own point of views.   BFD!!!! K?  He came here asking a question and you flame him for having an opinion, whether or not the opinion is biased, he still had a question.
> 
> Jason - I (personally) also cannot use Ephendrine.  I have tried everthing like creating my own stacks to using premade such as Hydroxycut, Xenedrine etc.  My heart races as well and its scary so I just threw out all ephedra products.  I've chosen to stay away from thermos because they don't appear to do me any good.  No I don't have any pre-existing conditions either
> ...



I do not retract any of my previous posts, as each one was explained in detail.  And stand by my position that the first post was irresponsible.  Nor do I think any of my posts were a "flame".

However, on to answering the question at hand, if you are looking for a non-ephedra thermogenic probably the best product out there is SAN's Tight.  It is new, and I have yet to try it, but the combination of ingredients and doses, look to be excellent, and initial feedback is promising.

Alternatively, you could look into the ingredients in Tight sold individually.  Some are more potent then others and would be cheaper if you bought them generically in bulk.

Another good "fatburner" though not a thermogenic is 7-keto-dhea, which you may want to look into.  It works by potentiating thyroid hormone.


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## Jodi (May 8, 2003)

TP - That wasn't directed at anyone in particular.


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## Twin Peak (May 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> TP - That wasn't directed at anyone in particular.



Didn't say it was, and I wasn't taking it as an attack (even if it was  -- just being clear, on my view of things.


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## Jodi (May 8, 2003)

I figured you knew that but I just wanted to be clear myself.


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## DaMayor (May 8, 2003)

Oh yes it was, Jodi.......you...you..... troublemaker! 

Again, and allow me to preface this by saying that I am as guilty as anyone, I think what we have here is a good old case of IM mis-interpretation. 
For those of you who are new-ish, learn to listen, evaluate, research, _then_ speak. For those of you who have been around for a while....Be _patient_ !
Now, everyone feel free to flame DaMayor.....


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## Jodi (May 8, 2003)

You know DM, I think I still got that bird around here somewhere for ya!


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## DaMayor (May 8, 2003)

See? Always pickin' fights! Proceed with Flame........


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## jasonbrunt (May 8, 2003)

can someone tell me how to post a "quote" for gr81?  I need to post one of the first replys to this thread, the one about obesity/smoking/alcohol

I just want to show that someone ELSE made the comparison with ephedrine-not me.  Didn't mean to start a riot here, but it's fun getting everyone stoked...I'll have to do it again sometime, I'm out.


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## jasonbrunt (May 8, 2003)

Let's all remember we have the same goals here.  I want to get jacked like everyone else, so lets keep that in mind.  Now, it's time to go kick ass and chew bubble gum...only, I'm all out of gum.


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## eskimo515 (May 9, 2003)

Clearly, we are all passionate about this stuff, otherwise we wouldnt be spending so much time on sites like these.  This gets me amped up to work harder.


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## DaMayor (May 9, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> Jesus was a _Jedi_ ? O-kay.
> 
> TP, I must agree....like lambs to the slaughter.  *Ephedra is no more dangerous than clinical obesity, or smoking, or excessive/binge drinking.*  People need to dig a little deeper before having mis-information induced panic attacks.



There. Feel better?


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## Twin Peak (May 9, 2003)

I believe we then clarified it to say it was indeed LESS dangerous.

Anyone else feeling a sense of de ja vu all over again?


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## DaMayor (May 9, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> There. Feel better?




What are you talking about?


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## DaMayor (May 9, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by DaMayor *_
> There. Feel better?





What are you talking about?


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## Jodi (May 9, 2003)

Matrix


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## Twin Peak (May 12, 2003)

This is the biggest fucking joke.

For all of you who defended this moron, whilest I simply ask that he stop proliferating unreasoned, unsubstantiated messages across the web,

For all of you who believed I was overreacting about such being proliferated over the web,

this moron posted thet exact same fucking question on another board using a different handle.

And this clown doesn't deserve to get blasted???

http://www.supplements101.com/forum...mpage=1&key=&language=&tmode=1&smode=1&s=#560


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## Var (May 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> This is the biggest fucking joke.
> 
> For all of you who defended this moron, whilest I simply ask that he stop proliferating unreasoned, unsubstantiated messages across the web,
> ...




What's wrong with posting the same thing on another board?  It's never a bad idea to seek out more than one source for answers.  How would posting on another site change anyones opinion about whether or not you overreacted, or the fact that he doesn't deserve to be blasted for his question?  Also important to note that he didn't get his ass skinned for posting at the other site.  Good for them


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## Twin Peak (May 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Var *_
> What's wrong with posting the same thing on another board?  It's never a bad idea to seek out more than one source for answers.  How would posting on another site change anyones opinion about whether or not you overreacted, or the fact that he doesn't deserve to be blasted for his question?  Also important to note that he didn't get his ass skinned for posting at the other site.  Good for them



Holy jeezus.  Did you read anything I wrote???

I will not explain it for the 37th time.


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## Twin Peak (May 12, 2003)

For the record, there is nothing wrong with posting the same Q on many boards.  IT IS PERPETUATING IGNORANCY AND FALLACIES THROUGHOUT THE WEB THAT I HAVE PROBLEMS WITH.

Does ANYONE understand this???


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## Var (May 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Holy jeezus.  Did you read anything I wrote???
> 
> I will not explain it for the 37th time.



I've read, and reread, every post in this thread.  I even stayed out of this for the past few days because I felt it was getting ridiculous and didnt want to feed the fire.  You've explained at length that you disagree with this guy, and that "PERPETUATING IGNORANCY AND FALLACIES THROUGHOUT THE WEB" pisses you off to no end.  None of this changes the fact that you are blasting this guy needlessley and making youself look like a punk.  He had a valid question and made a statement that many here disagree with.  I agree with much of what you've said, but I think all the beatings on this site make a lot newcomers leary of taking part.  It just kills me that this guy can't post a question (regardless of how controversial) without being called a clown and a moron.


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## Var (May 12, 2003)

Also, I agree that the net is replete with BS and that this is a bad thing.  I don't think that he was perpetuating bad info by saying that "there is a reason its being pulled off the shelves".  This is a pretty ambiguous statement and people need to be intelligent enough to discern between opinions and facts.  I enjoy this site because it gives me access to so many opinions.  It just sucks to see someone get torn apart for it.  I'm extremely tired of talking about this.  Lets all go out for beers, whatdya say?


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## Twin Peak (May 12, 2003)

I am done too.

What are we having, I am buying.


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## gr81 (May 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> For the record, there is nothing wrong with posting the same Q on many boards.  IT IS PERPETUATING IGNORANCY AND FALLACIES THROUGHOUT THE WEB THAT I HAVE PROBLEMS WITH.
> 
> Does ANYONE understand this???




Hey man I am right there with you. I just got sick and tired for people jumping on my back for getting mad at this moron. You are right that it is perpetuating ignorancy. If he just asked his question instead of throwing in there that ephedrine is bad and needs to be "pulled Off the shelves" along with it, we could have avoided all of this BS. Bottom line to EVERYONE. If you don't have the info to comment on something, then don't comment on it. Asking questions if perfectly fine, that is how people learn, great. but unsubstantiated comments are not needed. That is all.


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## jasonbrunt (May 12, 2003)

Once again for people who don't know how to read...I didn't actually state that it was "bad".  I said I won't take it anymore and believe there are reasons (which, if you can read, I already explained) why it looks like it is going to be pulled.  

...and TP:  I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.  I don't belong to any other forums.  In case you didn't notice, my user name IS MY REAL NAME!!!!  How many Jason Brunt's do you know?  

...and to everyone else:  I'm sorry about the quick and non-thought out statements I made in this original thread.    I was trying to see what people recommended for a good thermo w/out ephedrine.  I should have expressed my ephedrine-free desires more intelligently, and I admit it.  

BUT:  For those of you that think I was trying to plant the seeds of a government-driven, hexagonal conspiracy with a blatant disregard for human life.....You've watched too many episodes of the X-Files while simultaneously sitting at your computer, spewing your intellectual vomit at anyone who you disagree with.

Newbies Beware!!!!!!!!!!     Big brother is watching and he's trolling the iron magazine message boards for his next victim.

              -out-


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## gr81 (May 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by jasonbrunt *_
> ...and to everyone else:  I'm sorry about the quick and non-thought out statements I made in this original thread.    I was trying to see what people recommended for a good thermo w/out ephedrine.  I should have expressed my ephedrine-free desires more intelligently, and I admit it.




Thank you, that is all I was looking for. I certainly didn't think you were part of some government conspiracy, It was just the tone you used when you said that it needs to be pulled. Its all good though.


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## Twin Peak (May 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> Thank you, that is all I was looking for. I certainly didn't think you were part of some government conspiracy, It was just the tone you used when you said that it needs to be pulled. Its all good though.



Ditto.

BTW, I apologize for my previous statement.  Turns out the bonehead on the other forum just copied and pasted your comments.

Thankfully, he understood my point, and we have moved on.

But, DO YOU NOW SEE why it is so important to not make unsubstantiated and erroneous claims?  That was indeed my point, that on the web info is passed so quickly, we all have a duty to make sure the info is accurate, if we pass it on.


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## jasonbrunt (May 13, 2003)

10-4.


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## Twin Peak (May 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by jasonbrunt *_
> 10-4.



Thank you.


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## Robboe (May 14, 2003)

Wow.

Smackdown laying goin' on up in 'ere.


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## synth (May 18, 2003)

I'm too lazy to read everyones comments.  But for who the people saying it's the people own faults for messing up with ephedrine or ephedra.  Sooo true.  It's quite funny, pop or soda in large amounts is bad for you.  Beef is bad for you in large amounts.  Shit, pepper is bad for you in large amounts.  You name it, anything in large amounts if bad for you.  I just wrote my final paper on keeping the drug legal.  Sure it sucks over 100 people have died.  BUT it was their own fault!  The 16 and 17 year olds that died, their own fault.  The FDA mandates that everything has a label on it.  All ephdrine products do!  With warnings.  But hey, people must not be able to read.


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## eskimo515 (May 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by synth *_
> I'm too lazy to read everyones comments.


Synth, nothing personal, but you should probably read the thread.  We came a long way to get to this point (which is something of a resolution).  Don't get it started again!!!


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