# Is 1-AD harmful?



## Vale Tudo (Jul 8, 2002)

Do you guys know some harms of using 1-Ad, and do you also konw if it will lower my natural Test levels once I cycle off of it?


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## ZECH (Jul 8, 2002)

No side effects!!  Might want to have some tribex, tribestan, or fuzu for off cycle!


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## TJohn (Jul 8, 2002)

I've done it, the only side effects I experienced were kick ass gains


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## ZECH (Jul 8, 2002)

Yep!


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## Vale Tudo (Jul 8, 2002)

Thjat is awesome, I have been on it about a mointh thanks to Gopro, and have been seeing awesome gains as wel,, I but I am just affradi that it is going to hurt my natural test levels


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## Mudge (Jul 9, 2002)

If your under 18/20 I wouldn't bother, but not sure that it would be bad for someone that age in any way. I tried 1-Test and at the age of 26, it didn't do much for me at all, oh well.


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## TJohn (Jul 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Vale Tudo *_
> Thjat is awesome, I have been on it about a mointh thanks to Gopro, and have been seeing awesome gains as wel,, I but I am just affradi that it is going to hurt my natural test levels



No chance !! Pro's are nowhere near as potent as the real thing. Besides your cycling right.

Over 30 is best. IMO

TJohn


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## Mudge (Jul 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by TJohn *_
> 
> 
> No chance !! Pro's are nowhere near as potent as the real thing. Besides your cycling right.
> ...



In my limited experience, I have to agree.


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## I Are Baboon (Jul 9, 2002)

What about the warnings on this link (thanks DG!):  http://www10.netrition.com/ergopharm_1ad_page.html

U.S. Federal Trade Commission Warning: This product contains steroid hormones that may cause breast enlargement, testicle shrinkage, and infertility in males, and increased facial and body hair, voice deepening, and clitoral enlargement in females. Higher doses may increase these risks. If you are at risk for prostate or breast cancer you should not use this product.


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## Mudge (Jul 9, 2002)

The site claims:


> Completely Non-Aromatizable to Estrogens



Like I said though, at 26, my results were not very encouraging for something that cost so much.


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## Captain (Jul 9, 2002)

Tjohn, Vale Tudo, and others:

What do you mean by "awesome gains" and 
"kick-ass gains"?  You've got me interested.....


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## Vale Tudo (Jul 9, 2002)

Well i am cycling, 2 months on and then probably off forever, but what IAB just posted is a little frightening


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## ZECH (Jul 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Vale Tudo *_
> Thjat is awesome, I have been on it about a mointh thanks to Gopro, and have been seeing awesome gains as wel,, I but I am just affradi that it is going to hurt my natural test levels



It won't harm them permanently, but it will slow you body's own production down since it's getting an external supply. That's why you need to start tribex or fuzu the last week of your cycle and continue for a month to get natural levels back up!


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## Mudge (Jul 9, 2002)

If its not 1/2" on your arms a month or more, its not awesome 

I think you'll be fine, they don't recommend it for people not fully matured yet (minors), and I would imagine some might have side effects but I think those people would probably be rare, however I'm not a doctor so...


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## ZECH (Jul 9, 2002)

That warning is not on the 1-ad bottle! I think it was an old general warning for pro hormones that didn't work anyway! 1-ad and 1-test do not covert to estrogen which is where these sides come from..so no worry. I know at least 8 other people personally that have taken this and none I know had any side affects! As for gains like I told IRB, a gain of 5-15 lbs LBM is not uncommon and strength gains of 20 to 30 lbs is normal!! This stuff really rocks. I know there are other threads on this and GP can back these claims up if you care to pm him! He has trained people that has used this! And IMO I don't think it is necessary to go off it forever unless that is what you want! The only thing you should do is give yourself a 4 week break between cycles to let your body readjust........if you don't your body will build up a tolerance to it like anything else and you will stop seeing results!


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## ZECH (Jul 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> If its not 1/2" on your arms a month or more, its not awesome
> 
> I think you'll be fine, they don't recommend it for people not fully matured yet (minors), and I would imagine some might have side effects but I think those people would probably be rare, however I'm not a doctor so...



Mudge you must remember that these are not steriods, but they are the closest thing! Like anything, if your not on steriods, it will take time, and lots of hard work. And I agree the younger you are the less you will see because your natural test levels are higher! When you hit 25 to 30 your test starts slowing down. BTW, I am 38(maybe that is why I got good results).


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## Mudge (Jul 9, 2002)

I know, but for someone with relatively little experience, those gains are real for someone without roids.

Definately cycle the stuff (for those that it works for), as mentioned your body ends up depending on something because it will level off hormones over time, until when you stop your natural test levels aren't there.

It just didn't work for me, probably because of my age. I did gain some, but I am not banking that it was the results of the 1-Test and more so just getting 'serious' instead of going through the motions. I put on about 4 or 5 pounds, I'm now 224 and was 217 whenever I joined this board.


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## ZECH (Jul 9, 2002)

more info..........http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=5897


Remember also this isn't a miracle! You still have to watch your diet and eat shitloads of protein and get lots of rest so your body will grow! If you do it, do it right!  Your results will be better.


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## LAM (Jul 9, 2002)

dg806...how can you say there are no side effects with a basically unproven rather new supplement with no true clinical studies behind it ?


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## PulsatingArt (Jul 9, 2002)

don't forget, they HAVE


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## PulsatingArt (Jul 9, 2002)

OOPS!! hit the wrong button.  what i meant to say was

don't forget, they HAVE to put some type of warning if the rare occurance of someone suffering from side effects does happen, they don't get sued for all their worth.  this way, it is a take it at your own risk type of situation.  

almost everything sold in a GNC or other similar type of company has some type of warning for the same reason- to protect their butts.

As far as taking tribex before going off the 1-ad cycle-- how does tribex work?  is it introducing new test to your body, or just making your own body kick in its own stuff?  just curious, i'd try it in an off cycle as long as it doesn't shut your bodies ability down.


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## ZECH (Jul 9, 2002)

Well, if you believe ergopharm, they have done studies that show it does not aromatize, and it converts to 1-testosterone which is a naturally occuring in the human body. All I can verify is that it has no short term affects like hair loss, acne, mood swings, testicular swrinkage and such as do steriods.


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## LAM (Jul 9, 2002)

A supplement comany supplying information from "their" studies is like the police investigating themselves...if it's not from a credible 3rd party independent test lab the results are not reliable...


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## ZECH (Jul 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by PulsatingArt *_
> 
> As far as taking tribex before going off the 1-ad cycle-- how does tribex work?  is it introducing new test to your body, or just making your own body kick in its own stuff?  just curious, i'd try it in an off cycle as long as it doesn't shut your bodies ability down.



It's mainly herbal ingredients that help your body stimulate natural test production. It has positive effects on anabolic processes, testosterone production, appetite stimulation and immune function.


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## ZECH (Jul 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by LAM *_
> A supplement comany supplying information from "their" studies is like the police investigating themselves...if it's not from a credible 3rd party independent test lab the results are not reliable...


 And they are not forcing you to take it! But there has been lots of people see incredible results from this so it does work!!


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## PulsatingArt (Jul 9, 2002)

sweet


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## PulsatingArt (Jul 9, 2002)

but what about the companies that are coming out with straight 1-test?  (vpx, sans, biotest, etc)- wouldn't results be even better by taking the straight 1-test instead of taking something that converts to 1-test?


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## shooter (Jul 9, 2002)

Can you buy 1 AD in Canada? I've been meaning to get some but can't seam to find the real thing up here?


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## ZECH (Jul 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by PulsatingArt *_
> but what about the companies that are coming out with straight 1-test?  (vpx, sans, biotest, etc)- wouldn't results be even better by taking the straight 1-test instead of taking something that converts to 1-test?



PA...from what I hear, yes! It is absorbed through the skin! I hear of amazing results from these. One guy is a buddy of mine that has his own supp store. He tells me what others are gaining! I have about another 1 1/2 weeks of fuzu to take and I am going to try a 1-test/4-ad(avant labs) stack and see how that works. I am really looking forward to it!


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## ZECH (Jul 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by shooter *_
> Can you buy 1 AD in Canada? I've been meaning to get some but can't seam to find the real thing up here?


 Can't help you on that one since I don't live in Canada.....but there are lots here that do. Maybe someone will let you know.


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## PulsatingArt (Jul 9, 2002)

what is fuzo?


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## ZECH (Jul 9, 2002)

Fuzu info....
http://www11.netrition.com/syntrax_fuzu_page.html


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## Mudge (Jul 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by PulsatingArt *_
> but what about the companies that are coming out with straight 1-test?  (vpx, sans, biotest, etc)- wouldn't results be even better by taking the straight 1-test instead of taking something that converts to 1-test?



Yep, like I said though I don't feel that 1-Test did much for me, but I'm still young.`


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## Vale Tudo (Jul 9, 2002)

Bro from Canada, Just go to netrition.com and look it up and buy it off the web, they are quick and easy, and well worth it


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## Vale Tudo (Jul 9, 2002)

I have been on the ergopharm brand for a little over a mointh now and have gone from 190lbs to 205-210, w/o much Body fat gain at all.  Everyone can see the difference in me, and personally I would recomend this stuff to anyone, as long as it is not going to hurt you in the long run


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## Mudge (Jul 9, 2002)

Wow, thats a great gain!


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## TJohn (Jul 10, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Captain *_
> Tjohn, Vale Tudo, and others:
> 
> What do you mean by "awesome gains" and
> "kick-ass gains"?  You've got me interested.....



Capt. The last time I did a cycle of 1-AD I gained 13 lbs and upped pretty much all weights in exercises significantly (varying) but I'm 39 and I do believe I'm more receptive than someone in their 20's.

TJohn


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## kuso (Jul 10, 2002)

If you are particularly worried, you may want to stack it with this...................

PROHORMONES AND THE ESTROGEN FACTOR
By Jerry Brainum 
The introduction of prohormone supplements, capable of being actively converted into testosterone by naturally-occurring body enzymes, has made the term "anabolic supplement" a reality. Supplements such as androstenedione and others are termed "prohormones" because they serve as direct precursors for testosterone synthesis in the body. However, a less publicized effect of such supplements is their tendency to also be converted into estrogen. 

Estrogen, like all hormones, has its good and bad effects. Though frequently termed a "female" hormone, this label is a misnomer, since it's also produced in men--though in far smaller amounts compared to women. The reason why men produce estrogen isn't completely understood, although some evidence indicates that it may play a role in sperm maturation. However, most of the effects of estrogen in men are negative, especially if the male hormonal scale tips more in the direction of estrogen compared to testosterone. What could tip this sex hormone scale in favor of estrogen in a man? Several factors may induce this condition. For example, testosterone is converted into estrogen by way of a ubiquitous enzyme located throughout the body, but especially in peripheral fat tissue called aromatase. Thus, just having abundant fat stores in the body increases the risk of having higher estrogen levels in men, and women, too, for that matter. 

Normally most of the circulating testosterone in the blood plasma are bound to liver-produced proteins, such as sex-hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and to a lesser and weaker extent, albumin. But only the free or unbound testosterone (about 2% of the total amount in plasma) in active in the sense that it can interact with cellular androgen receptors. 

When prohormone supplements are converted into testosterone by various enzymes in the liver and other tissues, they circulate in the blood as free and bound testosterone. As such, they are subject to conversion to estrogen whenever the enzyme aromatase is encountered. As the estrogen levels rise from this conversion, the testosterone/estrogen ratio (T/E ratio) tips toward estrogen. When that happens, several negative events related to higher body estrogen levels in men begin to occur. These estrogen-related effects include possible gynecomastia or male breast development. This is commonly seen in many athletes who use anabolic steroid drugs capable of being aromatized, such as testosterone injections. 

Another possibility is benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) or prostate gland enlargement. Research shows that BPH results from a combined effect of a testosterone byproduct called dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and estrogen (0). Estrogen metabolites offer protective effects for women against cardiovascular disease onset presumably through the antioxidant activities of the 2-hydroxy metabolites. 

In men, the failure to metabolize estrogen has been linked to reverse effects, including that of promoting increased internal blood clotting associated with both heart attacks and strokes. This was shown in many studies, including the long-term Framingham Heart study. In that study, men with the highest estradiol or unmetabolized estrogen levels showed the greatest risk of early heart attack. 

There is a way, however, to harness the benefical cardiovascular effects of estrogen for men, which I'll reveal later. Recognition of the tendency for free testosterone to convert into estrogen has led to a search for natural alternatives to offset this notable problem. Drugs that inhibit aromatase, such as Testlac and Arimidex, are sometimes prescribed to for breast cancer preventive effects in women. But such drugs are extremely expensive, hard to obtain, and may impart undesired side effects of their own. 

An over-the-counter supplement called chrysin, classified as a flavonoid, is found naturally in plants, and is often suggested as a natural, safe supplement to inhibit the aromatase enzyme that converts testosterone into estrogen. However, while the potency of chrysin is comparable to potent drugs such as Cytadren that also inhibit aromatase, these effects have thus far been shown to occur only in test tube studies. No one has yet determined the effectiveness of chrysin inhibition of aromatase in the human body. Some controversy even exists as to how well chrysin is absorbed into the body. 

Obviously a substance that could curtail or even nullify some of the deleterious effects of estrogen would benefit both men and women. While women do naturally produce more estrogen that men, it's also true that in excess, estrogen has cancer-promoting effects in women, particularly in the breasts and reproductive tract. Such a estrogen-modifier would have to be safe, and not interfere with the beneficial effects of other hormones, such as testosterone. The question is: does such as substance exist? The vegetable cure Scientists have been aware for over a decade that certain foods contain naturally-occurring protective substances. Many such substances occur in plants and vegetables, and are often collectively referred to as phytochemicals or literally "plant chemicals." Cruciferous vegetables, such as broccoli, cabbage, and cauliflower contain some of the most potent protective phytochemicals yet discovered. These include sulforaphane, which works to prevent cancer by inducing a potent detoxifying enzyme system in the liver called phase-2 enzymes. 

Another cruciferous phytochemical is called indole-3-carbinol(I3C). IC3 acts as an estrogen antagonist (2). Numerous studies published during the past decade conclusively show that I3C converts estrogen to safe metabolites , while also promoting estrogen inactivation and excretion (3). The dietary indoles found in cruciferous vegetables modify estrogen and promote its conversion into beneficial forms, such as 2-hydroxy and 2-methoxyestrogen (4). The synthesis of these "good" estrogens tends to decrease the production of "bad" estrogens that are linked to disease processes, including various cancers in both sexes (5). 

Subsequent research revealed that indole-3-carbinol isn't the primary active ingredient that promotes beneficial estrogen synthesis. The process is actually a cascade effect, beginning with a phytochemical in cruciferous vegetables called glucosinolate, which is converted by enzymes into indole-3-carbinol. The indole-3-carbinol, in turn, is converted into the true active ingredient, diindolymethane (DIM) (6). Pure DIM was initially used in supplement form and given to animals in 1987 (7). Animal studies showed it to be both effective and nontoxic. When animals were exposed to carcinogens that initiated breast and colon cancers (8), the addition of DIM inhibited such cancers . Further research revealed that the mechanism behind these anticancer effects of DIM included reducing estrogen cell receptor activity (9); promotion of the "good' 2-hydroxy estrogens (10); and through supporting selective apoptosis, or programmed cell death, which allows the body to remove damaged cells prone to cancer (11). 

Providing DIM to humans leads to an increased ratio of good 2-hydroxy estrogens to "bad" 16-hydroxyestrone. In fact, human studies showed that DIM resulted in a 75% increase in good estrogens with a 50% decrease in bad estrogens linked to disease onset. Other studies show that low levels of the beneficial 2-hydroxy estrogens are linked to breast cancers in both men (12) and women (13); uterine cancer (14); cervical cancer; and system lupus erythematosus (15), an autoimmune disease more common in women. Many previous risk factors for breast cancer development, such as obesity, high fat diets, and diets lacking omega-3 fatty acids are also characterized by a low-level 2-hydroxy synthesis in the body (16). 

Since indole-3-carbinol (I3C) is capable of neutralizing excess estrogen and promoting its excretion, some supplement companies have incorporated I3C into their proprietary prohormone formulas. This, however, isn't effective. First, I3C is highly unstable and has a poor shelf life. Odds are good that any supplement containing this substance doesn't have much to begin with, and even less by the time a consumer purchases it. In addition, I3C, as noted, isn't the active chemical anyway; it's instead, DIM. I3C is converted into DIM through a process involving gastric hydrochloric acid (HCL). If a person is deficient in HCL, as commonly occurs in the elderly, I3C won't effectively convert into DIM. In contrast to I3C, DIM is highly stable, doesn't need any conversion in stomach acid, and is by far the most active phytochemical in promoting the synthesis of good, protective estrogens such as 2-hydroxyestrone (17). One problem does exist, however, with DIM: it's not soluble in water in its usual crystalline form. As such, it requires a special delivery system in order to be effective for supplemental purposes. Such a system exists in a special supplement called Diindolin. 

Diindolin contains DIM associated with a special matrix that improves absorption. The daily usage of a 300 milligram dosage of Diindolin approximately equals the DIM obtainable from 2-4 pounds of raw broccoli. This supplement is clearly useful not only for people that just don't like cruciferous vegetables such as broccoli, but also don't want to eat several pounds of it each day to ingest beneficial levels of DIM. 

By increasing the levels of beneficial 2-hydroxy estrogens, the testosterone/estrogen ratio is increased in favor of testosterone. More importantly from an anabolic point of view, the level of free testosterone rises in the blood with use of DIM. The mechanism behind this is that 2-hydroxy estrogens have a greater binding affinity for the blood proteins that "lock up" testosterone in the blood. Thus, these plasma binding proteins instead latch on to 2-hydroxy, leaving greater levels of free testosterone, including that produced through the use of supplemental prohormones. The 2-hydroxy estrogens promoted by DIM usage also increase testosterone synthesis through another mechanism. Estrogen, even more than testosterone itself, incurs a negative hormonal feedback loop to the pituitary gland, where the rate-limiting gonadotropin for testosterone synthesis, luteinizing hormone (LH) is synthesized and released. What this means is that high blood levels of estrogen, as may occur through aromatization of free testosterone, turn off the release of LH from the pituitary gland. This leads to a vicious biochemical cycle characterized by an imbalance between testosterone and estrogen in favor of the latter. These events, however, are nullified by 2-hydroxy, which doesn't provide the negative feedback message to the pituitary induced by estrogen. The net effect is greater testosterone synthesis in the Leydig cells of the testes, as well as lower levels of bad estrogen and all the effects that go with it. DIM differs from other natural substances currently touted to decrease estrogen levels, such as the soy isoflavones, genistein and diadzen. DIM, while promoting the synthesis of beneficial estrogens, such as 2-dehydroxy, isn't itself a phytoestrogen or an estrogen mimic as are the soy isoflavones. Thus, there is no danger of a paradoxical estrogen-agonist or pro-estrogen effect with DIM as can possibly occur in some cases with soy isoflavones. Diindolin also helps to burn fat through extending the activity of catecholamines, such as epinephrine and norepinephrine. These hormones help the body oxidize fat through interacting with beta-adrenergic fat cell receptors. This leads to an enzymatic cascade resulting in the release of free fatty acids into the blood. However, catecholamines are rapidly degraded by an enzyme called catechol-O-methyl transference (COMT). This same enzyme also metabolizes 2-hydroxy estrogens. An increase in 2-hydroxy estrogens, such as that induced by Diindolin, will promote a competitive inhibition effect with the catecholamine and COMT, leading to less rapid breakdown of catecholamines and thus enhanced fat mobilization. The implications of this process are that Diindolin will serve to potentiate the increased catecholamine secretion that normally occurs during exercise. It will also provide synergistic fat oxidizing effects when combined with a ephedrine-caffeine stack, since this stack works by also increasing the release of catecholamines. 

Keeping DHEA honest DHEA, an adrenal androgen, was the first of the prohormone supplements to be marketed. The problem with DHEA, however, is that it isn't as direct a precursor for conversion into testosterone as is the supplements released later, such as androstenedione. DHEA, while capable of being converted into testosterone, can also take divergent pathways, such as conversion into estrogen or DHT. This is particularly true in men under age 40. Since DHEA also offers various health benefits, such as a heightened immune response and increased insulin sensitivity, the problem of possible conversion into estrogen by way of aromatase enzyme is a daunting one. 

Diindolin can once again offer benefits by promoting the conversion of any estrogen produced as a result of DHEA usage into the beneficial 2-dehydroxy form, which if anything, would provide synergistic health benefits with DHEA usage. As noted earlier, Diindolin, through increasing 2-hydroxy synthesis, blunts the effects of estrogen in promoting prostate enlargement. It is synergistic with other phytochemicals that prevent prostate enlargement, such as saw palmetto (which blocks conversion of testosterone into DHT), green tea, pygeum africanum, and stinging nettle. 

Diindolin may also increase insulin response. By potentiating catecholamines, Diindolin can increase carbohydrate clearance and "reset" the insulin system to a lower starting point. This effect, in turn, increases the response of insulin to high glycemic carbohydrates or simple sugars. Since such simple sugars are needed to promote uptake and absorption of creatine into muscle through a insulin-stimulated muscle creatine uptake carrier, the increased insulin response promoted by Diindolin serves to increase creatine supplemental efficacy. Diindolin also may increase workout recovery. Studies show that estrogen appears to limit muscle damage induced by intense training. The damage may be incurred by increased free radical release from the upgraded oxygen intake typical during exercise. These free radicals damage cell membranes, leading to an inflammation discernable as muscle soreness. 

One of the good things about estrogen is that it is a potent free radical quencher. Evidence shows that you can obtain this same protective effect of estrogen minus the negative aspects with 2-hydroxy estrogen metabolites promoted by Diindolin. Studies show that dietary antioxidants, such as vitamin E, increase exercise recovery by minimizing the inflammatory effects of free radical release during exercise. The 2-hydroxy estrogens are even more potent in their free radical-quenching effect than vitamin E. Thus, by relieving muscle inflammation after exercise, Diindolin may speed exercise recovery. Add it all up and you can only draw one conclusion: the future of DIM or more precisely, Diindolin, looks bright! 



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(0)Farnsworth WE. Roles of estrogen and SHBG in prostate physiology. 
(1)Michinovicz JJ, et al. Altered estrogen metabolism and excretion in humans following consumption of indole-3-carbinol. Nutrition and Cancer 1991:16(1);59-66. 
(2)Michenovicz JJ, et al. Changes in estrogen metabolites after oral indole-3-carbinol treatment in humans. J. Natl Cancer Inst 1997;89(10):718-23. 
(3)Michenovicz JJ, et al. Dietary and pharmacological control of estradiol metabolism in humans. ANN NY Acad Sci 1991;595:291-9 
(4)Bradlow HL, et al. 2hydroxyestrone: the "good" estrogen. J. Endocrinol 1996;150 (suppl):S259-65 
(5) Zhu BT, et al. Is 2-methoxyestradiol an endogenous estrogen metabolite that inhibits mammary carcinogenesis? Cancer Research 1998;58:2269-2277 
(6) Zeligs MA. Diet and estrogen status; the cruciferous connection. J. of Medicinal Food 1998; 1:67-82 
(7) McDanell R, et al. Differential induction of mixed-function oxidase(MFO) activity in rat liver and intestines by diets containing processed cabbage: correlation with cabbage levels of glucosinolates hydrolysis products. Food Chemical Toxicol 1987;25:363-368. 
(8) Guo D. protection by chorophyllin and indole-3-carbinol against 2-amino-1-methyl-6-phenylimidazol-induced DNA adducts and colonic abberent crypts in the F344 rat. Carcinogenesis 1995;16:2931-2937 
(9) Chen I, et al. Aryl hydrocarbon receptor-medical antiestrongenic and antitumorigenic activity of diindolymathane. Carcinogeneiis 1998;1631-1639. 
(10) Telang NT, et al. Inhibition of proliferation and modulation of estradiol metabolism: novel mechanisms for breast cancer prevention by pnytochemical indole-3-carbinol. Proceedings Soc Biol Med 1997;216:246-52.
(11)Gamet-Payrastre L, et al. Selective cytostatic and cytotoxic effects of glucosinolate hydrolyisis products on human colon cancer cells in vitro. Anti-cancer Drugs 1998;9:141-48. (12)Zumoff B, et al. Estradiol transformation in men with breast cancer. J Clin Endocrin Metabol 1966;26:960-66.
(13) Scheider J, et al. Abnormal oxidative metabolism of estradiol in women with breast cancer. J Clin Endocrin Metabol 1982;79:3047-51. 
(14) Fishman J, et al. Increased estrogen-16-hydroxylase activity in women with breast and endometrial cancer. J Steroid Biochem 1984;20:1077-1081.
(15) Lahita RG, et al. Increased 16-alpha-hydroxylation of estradiol in systemic lupus erythematosus. J Clin Endocrin Metab 1981;53:174-78. 
(16) Hershcopf RJ et al. Obesity, diet, endogenous estrogens, and the risk of hormone-sensitive cancer. Amer J Clin Nutr 1987;45 (Suppl):283-89. 
(17) Jellinck PH, et al. Ah receptor binding propertis of indole carbinols and induction of hepatic estrodiol hydroxylation. Biochem pharmacol 1993;45;1129-36.


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## shooter (Jul 10, 2002)

Vale, the problem with that is they won't guarantee the products if the Canadian Customs won't let it thru. I'm not blaming them, Iwouldn't either. Fooking CDN Customs!


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## Vale Tudo (Jul 10, 2002)

damn man, that really blows!!!  i would keep searching the web, or maybe ask W8 since she is from Canada, where you might be able to get it


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## Mudge (Jul 10, 2002)

Looks like some of you are seeing truly steroid-like results.


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## ZECH (Jul 11, 2002)

Mudge, don't get discouraged...I'm not sure exactly how old you are, but you have plenty of time! If you continue to train hard and eat right until your my age, you'll be huge!!


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## Mudge (Jul 11, 2002)

Not discouraged, 1-Test just didn't do it for me. 26 years old, 225 pounds, 6'2". I'll post next pics in about 2-3 months


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## ZECH (Jul 11, 2002)

See.....you really don't need it yet.....And sounds like you are pretty big already!


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## Vale Tudo (Jul 11, 2002)

i fdont know if I am a frak oir what, but I am seeing these huge gains, and I am only 22 years old right now...strange


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