# Having trouble filling in the inner or middle part of my upper chest.



## Johnnny (Jun 20, 2004)

I'm having troulbe filling in the inner or middle part of my upper chest that's right below the neck area. The outside of my upper chest gets really big & strong, but compared to the rest of my pectoral cleavage this area is really lacking. The area right below the center of my neck in the upper chest area.


I usually do 4 exercises 3 sets each for chest. I do my flat bench then incline bench press (incline dumbells don't work as well for me as I've tried them & when I do them I lose strength when I go back to incline bench), then I do incline flies but I have 2 variations, I do standard incline dumbell flies with the hands vertical & palms facing eachother when at the top of the movement & I also do flies with my hands in a horizontal position with my palms facing downwards. This way I really feel & see the middle of my upper chest working, but it just doesn't get overyly thick.

For my incline bench I used to be able to do 265lbs for 5 reps before my fukn' hyper thyroid problem, now I'm doing 245lbs for about 6 or 7 reps & work my way down to  205lbs for a good 12-14 reps.
When I do standard incline dumbell flies I go as heavy as 80-85lbs in each hand for a good 5-7 reps & work my way down to 60lbs in each hand for 15reps & for the other variation with hands horizontal & palms downward I go as high as about 65-70lbs in each hand for a good 5-7 reps & work my way down to 45lbs for 15 reps.

I'm just explaining what exercises I do & the amount of weights & reps I do just so you know that I do train my chest really hard.

But again I'm still having trouble making this area in my upper chest right below the center of my neck get thicker even though it really gets stimulated during my chest routine & I eat enough food & protein.

Any ideas? Thanks.


----------



## CowPimp (Jun 21, 2004)

If you find a way to change your genetics, then let me know.


----------



## DrChiro (Jun 21, 2004)

Isn't that covered in that precious book you have been reading by the guy with 30 years of experience?


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

CowPimp 


> Isn't that covered in that precious book you have been reading by the guy with 30 years of experience?


So I guess you have no new ideas other than what I mentioned I'm already doing?



DrChiro


> Isn't that covered in that precious book you have been reading by the guy with 30 years of experience?


No one likes a smart a$$. & yes it is covered in the book I've been going over. Everything that I've mentioned in above is in the book & it should target that small area in the upper chest just below the center of your neck.

But for some reason no matter how heavy or how many reps as high as 15 or 20 I go with still heavy weight, it just doesn't want to fill out that much. Like I said it's mostly the outer part of my upper chest that gets thick even though I can go heavy or light on all upper chest movements.


----------



## Mudge (Jun 21, 2004)

Make your chest bigger. How are you going to make one part of the fiber bigger than the other? Oh yeah, synthol.


----------



## CowPimp (Jun 21, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> But for some reason no matter how heavy or how many reps as high as 15 or 20 I go with still heavy weight, it just doesn't want to fill out that much. Like I said it's mostly the outer part of my upper chest that gets thick even though I can go heavy or light on all upper chest movements.


15 or 20 reps is not heavy weight.  The term heavy is relative to how much you can lift.  If you can do it 15-20 times, then it is light for you.  Heavy means you can only performance a few repititions.  5 or fewer reps equates to heavy, maybe even less depending on who you ask.

Also, the point of my statement was to say that you cannot change the shape of a muscle.  If that part doesn't fill in, then that is just how life is.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

CowPimp 


> 15 or 20 reps is not heavy weight. The term heavy is relative to how much you can lift. If you can do it 15-20 times, then it is light for you. Heavy means you can only performance a few repititions. 5 or fewer reps equates to heavy, maybe even less depending on who you ask.


I know the difference between heavy & light. 

All I was saying was I've done both heavy & light, low rep & high rep to try & fill in this area of the upper chest right below the center of the neck.



> Also, the point of my statement was to say that you cannot change the shape of a muscle. If that part doesn't fill in, then that is just how life is.


But there must be a way to fill in this area. Heavy & low rep or light & high rep.

Mudge



> Make your chest bigger. How are you going to make one part of the fiber bigger than the other? Oh yeah, synthol.


Well that's why I'm asking, if there's any exercises that I haven't tried yet that could isolate this area. & yeah synthol would instantly do the trick.


----------



## Mudge (Jun 21, 2004)

Yep, 15-20 reps is not heavy training. It doesn't matter if you bench 650, if you are doing 405 for 15 reps that is not heavy training for _you._


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

Mudge 


> Yep, 15-20 reps is not heavy training. It doesn't matter if you bench 650, if you are doing 405 for 15 reps that is not heavy training for _you._


 
Like I already said I know the difference in training heavy & training light. I said I was trying different methods to try & stimulate this one area more.


----------



## nikegurl (Jun 21, 2004)

it's one muscle Johnny.  ya can't pick a portion of it and "stimulate it more"


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

nikegurl 


> it's one muscle Johnny. ya can't pick a portion of it and "stimulate it more"


Than what are isolation exercises for? They are to isolate one particular part of a muscle. That is why I'm wondering if there's some isolation exercise I don't know of yet for that one particular spot.


----------



## Rauschgift (Jun 21, 2004)

You could always get implants.


----------



## Saturday Fever (Jun 21, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Than what are isolation exercises for? They are to isolate one particular part of a muscle.


 WRONG.

 This is absolutely false and a HUGE misunderstanding of the terms "compound" and "isolation." An isolation movement is called an isolation movement because only one joint is being moved. For example, picture a biceps curl. The only joint that moves in the elbow. A compound movement is called a compound movement because it compounds a series of isolated movements. Bench press, for example. Your shoulders have to rotate, hence isolating your delts. Your arms are moving from a bent postion to a straight position, isolating your triceps. Bench is obviously more complex than that, but you understand the true definition of the terms "compound" and "isolation" now. I hope.


----------



## Mudge (Jun 21, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> nikegurl
> 
> Than what are isolation exercises for? They are to isolate one particular part of a muscle.


No. Isolation movements are to isolate ONE MUSCLE or a GROUP (i.e. one arm  biceps), they are not to stimulate one END of a fiber group more than another end.


----------



## nikegurl (Jun 21, 2004)

bet he won't believe us.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

Mudge 


> No. Isolation movements are to isolate ONE MUSCLE or a GROUP (i.e. one arm biceps), they are not to stimulate one END of a fiber group more than another end.


I'm still agreeing with Mudge on this one.

Let me ask you (those who say that isolation movements aren't designed to target one specific area) than what are concentration curls focuses directly on peaking the bicep compared to the compound movement standing barbell curls done with the 45lb bar, side lateral raises which focuses specifically on the side delt compared to doing just military press a compound movement, shrugs to isolate the traps? I guess all of these are compound movements to (sarcasm)?


----------



## nikegurl (Jun 21, 2004)

Johnny - I think you may have misunderstood Mudge.  What you're saying is NOT agreeing with him.


----------



## Saturday Fever (Jun 21, 2004)

You're still agreeing with Mudge? What you said before, which led him to that comment, totally CONTRADICTS what you say you are "still" agreeing with.

 And you still don't understand what isolation and compound mean with regards to lifting. I'm done with you troll, go find another bridge.


----------



## Arnold (Jun 21, 2004)

LOL, Johnnny, should stick to posting pics in the open chat forum!


----------



## Vieope (Jun 21, 2004)

_Increase your bodyfat.  It is the only thing I can think of besides bigger muscles or synthol. _


----------



## PreMier (Jun 21, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> LOL, Johnnny, should stick to posting pics in the open chat forum!


   I will definately give him credit there.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

Here is what Mudge said



> No. Isolation movements are to isolate ONE MUSCLE or a GROUP (i.e. one arm biceps), they are not to stimulate one END of a fiber group more than another end.


That is exactly what I meant to say, if I wasn't clear enough than I apologize. But that's what I was saying isolation movements are to target one muscle specifically. & since that area in your upper chest right below the center of your neck is apart of the upper chest, than what I've been asking is maybe there's an isolation exercise that will hit the entire upper chest including that hard to develop area right below the center of your neck.

I still know what I'm talking about. Just as I said earlier, concentration curls for biceps is an isolation movement to the bicep, side deltoid raises or rear delt flies are isolation movement to hit solely those areas, as shrugs whether barbell or dumbell isolate the traps only. Pretty simple.


----------



## nikegurl (Jun 21, 2004)

you're still contradicting yourself when you say you agree with mudge.

the chest is ONE muscle.  there isn't an isolation move for the inner/middle part of your upper chest.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

nikegurl 


> you're still contradicting yourself when you say you agree with mudge.
> 
> the chest is ONE muscle. there isn't an isolation move for the inner/middle part of your upper chest.


What I'm saying is why isn't this area getting filled out evenly with the rest of the upper chest when I do isolation movements like horizontal incline dumbell flies? I really feel this area working especially when I squeeze & hold the upper chest together at the top of the movement..

What I'm asking is, maybe there is another isolation upper chest movement that I don't know about that will target the entire upper chest much better including this one spot..


----------



## nikegurl (Jun 21, 2004)

k...we may be getting somewhere here after all.

are you basically asking if there are any good chest exercises you don't already know about?  

pretty much all of them are pressing or flye type movements.

bench press (db, bb, flat, incline, decline, hammer strength etc) are your basic pressing moves.  pushups and dips both use the "push" movement to work your chest.  these are all compound exercises.

flyes, pec deck, cable crossovers (low and high) are all isolation moves based on the flye movement.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

nikegurl 


> k...we may be getting somewhere here after all.
> 
> are you basically asking if there are any good chest exercises you don't already know about?
> 
> ...


If you read in the beginning about what I've been doing for upperchest movements, I've listed them.

The only thing other than incline bench or incline dumbell press all the way down that I feel my chest working is with standard vertical incline dumbell flies & even more with horizontal incline dumbell flies.

For standard vertical incline flies I use as much as 90-100lbs in each hand for 5-7 reps with a full stretch, & 70-85lbs in each hand for horizontal incline flies with a full stretch at the bottom.

I feel it majorly working the whole area. Today for example I did my incline bench with 245lbs for 7 reps with other sets of course, then I did my horizontal incline dumbell flies & at the top of each movement I really focused on squeezing my 2 hands together for a pause forcing the whole upper chest to contract including that area right below the center of my neck.

& yes I've done & frequently do cable crossovers, dips peck deck etc......


----------



## nikegurl (Jun 21, 2004)

you aren't going to find an exercise for that one area of your chest...b/c "that area" of your chest is not it's own muscle.

good luck to you.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

nikegurl 


> you aren't going to find an exercise for that one area of your chest...b/c "that area" of your chest is not it's own muscle.
> 
> good luck to you.


Yes I know it's not it's own muscle. I was only wondering if there were anyother exercises that I hadn't mentioned that might help evenly develop the entire upper chest including that spot right below the center of your neck.

So I guess I'm doing everything I possibly can to build that whole area?


----------



## Var (Jun 21, 2004)

One of the lectures on the ISSA CFT video goes into this whole "shaping" issue.  While watching it I was really wishing some of our members were there to see it.  Not that they'd believe it anyway.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

Var 


> One of the lectures on the ISSA CFT video goes into this whole "shaping" issue. While watching it I was really wishing some of our members were there to see it. Not that they'd believe it anyway


I guess you don't want to share some of the info that was discussed?

ISSA is a known company for certifying ppl to become trainers. I was looking at them as well.


----------



## Var (Jun 21, 2004)

I'm really happy with them so far.  Very good practical info, but also a good bit of theory and anatomy/physiology.

The part I was referring to, Dr Hatfield goes into how absurd it is to think you can shape a muscle.  Basically, what has been said here many times.  I just thought it gives this fact a little more clout to hear him say it.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

Var



> I'm really happy with them so far. Very good practical info, but also a good bit of theory and anatomy/physiology.
> 
> The part I was referring to, Dr Hatfield goes into how absurd it is to think you can shape a muscle. Basically, what has been said here many times. I just thought it gives this fact a little more clout to hear him say it.


Than what does he say to do that works?


----------



## Var (Jun 21, 2004)

He's saying that NOTHING will reshape the muscle. You can only make it larger. So, if I'm understanding your question, the answer is... nothing works.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

Var 


> He's saying that NOTHING will reshape the muscle. You can only make it larger. So, if I'm understanding your question, the answer is... nothing works.


Okay with that said, than with what I mentioned what I do for my upper chest than how do I make the entire area grow?

I think I'm doing just about everything to make that whole upper chest area grow. But maybe there's something that I haven't tried. 

But with as strong I get & as strong as I have been in all areas of my chest, this one area hasn't really filled out the way I want it to.

I guess you say it's genetics?


----------



## PreMier (Jun 21, 2004)

You cant isolate a specific area of the chest.  You need to do various things to increase its overall mass.  So just keep doing what your doing, and hope that your chest develops more.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

PreMier



> You cant isolate a specific area of the chest. You need to do various things to increase its overall mass. So just keep doing what your doing, and hope that your chest develops more.


Well you can isolate the upper chest entirely, the middle chest entirely & the lower chest entirely with decline work. But not isolating that specific little part of the upper chest that completely fills out the cleavage from bottom to top.

Like I said my upper chest gets strong & really fills out around the rest of the upper chest but not as much in the area I'm reffering as I'd like it to.

I guess all I can to is keep training with heavy to moderate weight making everything stronger & just keep eating my 7 times a day.


----------



## PreMier (Jun 21, 2004)

You CANNOT isolate the upper, middle, and lower chest! 

This has been debated a million times.  Believe what you must.


----------



## PreMier (Jun 21, 2004)

Lets not bicker, its been discussed. http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=30621&page=1&pp=30&highlight=upper+chest

Believe what you want.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

PreMier 


> You CANNOT isolate the upper, middle, and lower chest!
> 
> This has been debated a million times. Believe what you must.


Okay so let me get this straight, if I'm doing decline bench press isn't the & I quote "majority" of the part you're working the lower chest? So what are you saying that the upper chest gets worked when you do decline bench? Even if it did, it wouldn't grow as much as it would if you did upper chest work as well.

Speaking of which so when I'm working my upper chest doing incline bench, incline dumbell flies or whatever, you are saying that I'm not isolating the upper chest with those movements. So what you are saying is that when I'm doing my upper chest the whole chest gets worked is that what you are saying?

There wouldn't be exercises designed to hit the upper chest, the middle chest or the lower chest if they didn't individually work those areas with the right exercises.


----------



## PreMier (Jun 21, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Okay so let me get this straight, if I'm doing decline bench press isn't the & I quote "majority" of the part you're working the lower chest? So what are you saying that the upper chest gets worked when you do decline bench? Even if it did, it wouldn't grow as much as it would if you did upper chest work as well.


The chest contains 2 muscles. Pec major, and pec minor. Pec minor is located underneath pec major. There are not distinct sections or parts of the chest. So decline affects the muscle as a whole.



			
				johnnny said:
			
		

> Speaking of which so when I'm working my upper chest doing incline bench, incline dumbell flies or whatever, you are saying that I'm not isolating the upper chest with those movements. So what you are saying is that when I'm doing my upper chest the whole chest gets worked is that what you are saying?


Yes, the whole chest is being worked. The only reason in using other exercises besides just flat is to *optimize* the growth of the pec in whole.



			
				johnnny said:
			
		

> There wouldn't be exercises designed to hit the upper chest, the middle chest or the lower chest if they didn't individually work those areas with the right exercises.


Believe what you will, like I said before. But from a physiological standpoint you are wrong.


----------



## Pitboss (Jun 21, 2004)

So we are on a page and half of everyone saying no you can not make one section of your chest grow. It all grows or doesn't grow at all. 

It's like watering a tree. If you water only the south side will the north side stop growing??? I isolated the water and the south should be growing more than the north right?? NO it's the same freaking tree!!!! 

You can make your left chest bigger than your right though


----------



## PreMier (Jun 21, 2004)

Great analogy PB! 

Even a kindergartner could get that one


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

PreMier

Than tell me why this happened. For a long time I was only doing upper chest work like incline bench & incline flies no decline or middle chest work.

After about 4 months my middle chest began losing a lot of size & then when I went back to doing my flat bench or decline bench I did lose a lot of strength as well.

This was back in 2000 as I tried doing just upper chest work to entirely fill in the upper chest.

I started doing my middle chest & lower chest again & within just a month my strength was back benching about 320lbs for about 4 reps.

What does that say? If you don't work one area of your chest at all it will get weak & lose muscular size. That is if you're not on steroids. I know guys on steroids & no joke I'm dead serious they don't train their chest that much & their chest grows w/o much work.


----------



## PreMier (Jun 21, 2004)

Well, thats YOUR experiance, NOT fact. I will not argue with you anymore. Its futile.

Check this out:


			
				SF said:
			
		

> nowhere has science ever made a connection between tighter contractions (emphasis) at portions of a muscle with growth to that portion of muscle. So while you can make portions of a muscle sore, you cannot make certain portions grow. So doing 9 sets of flat bench IS the same as 3 sets of each.


----------



## Little Wing (Jun 21, 2004)

Pitboss said:
			
		

> So we are on a page and half of everyone saying no you can not make one section of your chest grow. It all grows or doesn't grow at all.
> 
> It's like watering a tree. If you water only the south side will the north side stop growing??? I isolated the water and the south should be growing more than the north right?? NO it's the same freaking tree!!!!
> 
> You can make your left chest bigger than your right though


especially if you always breastfeed the baby on the same side.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

PreMier 
Than what if someone only does flat bench, flat dumbell flies, & pec dec?

If they suddenly decided to start doing upper chest & jumped onto the incline bench what you're saying is that with all the upper chest work they'd be getting from the flat bench press they should right away be able to incline bench press 255lbs right?

That's what you're saying.


----------



## PreMier (Jun 21, 2004)

No, thats NOT what I am saying.  Strength and size are two (2) different things.

Again, thats NOT what im saying.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

Premier

Well it is what you are saying whether you think so or not.

Size & strength aren't really that different. In order to get size & grow for most ppl they have to lift heavy. & in order to be able to lift heavy you need strength so that you can continue to grow & get stronger & build more size by lifting new heavy weights.

W/O strength it's really hard to build size as you need to train heavy & expose the muscles to heavy weight as putting great pressure on whatever muscle you're working will cause muscle growth.


----------



## PreMier (Jun 21, 2004)

No dude. Thats NOT what I am saying. I am saying that you can NOT isolate certian areas of the chest.  STOP putting words into my mouth.

Im done.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

Premier

Well I'm sorry but that is what you are saying.


When you do upper chest movements you are "primarily" working your upper chest, when you are doing flat bench or flat dumbell flies you are "primarily" working your middle chest, when you are doing decline chest movements you are "primarily" working your lower chest. It's that simple.


----------



## Arnold (Jun 21, 2004)

LOL, it's great watching you all debate the upper/middle/lower/inner/outer chest isolation!

My advice is to utilize all movements and angles for chest, period. Make sure this includes dumbbell work, not just barbells, especially dumbbell flyes.


----------



## PreMier (Jun 21, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> LOL, it's great watching you all debate the upper/middle/lower/inner/outer chest isolation!
> 
> My advice is to utilize all movements and angles for chest, period. Make sure this includes dumbbell work, not just barbells, especially dumbbell flyes.


Prince, do you think that doing inline will build the upper chest?
Do you think decline will build the lower chest?


----------



## Pitboss (Jun 21, 2004)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Prince, do you think that doing inline will build the upper chest?
> Do you think decline will build the lower chest?


Just do squats to get huge!!!


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 21, 2004)

Robert Di Maggio



> My advice is to utilize all movements and angles for chest, period. Make sure this includes dumbbell work, not just barbells, especially dumbbell flyes.


 
I agree with that completely. As I use alot of dumbells & I do flies in more than one way whether it's vertical flies or horizontal flies, flat flies or incline flies, decline bench or cable crossovers I do it all.


----------



## Arnold (Jun 21, 2004)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Prince, do you think that doing inline will build the upper chest?
> Do you think decline will build the lower chest?


I refuse to get into these debates anymore, they go no where.

I do *not* believe that it's possible to stimulate different _regions _of a *single *muscle. If this were possible you could shape a muscle

I *do* believe that hitting a muscle from every angle possible will give the greatest results and best development and that muscles grow as a whole. Regardless of where you may be sore, the entire muscle will grow proportionally, not in parts.


----------



## PreMier (Jun 21, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> I refuse to get into these debates anymore, they go no where.
> 
> I do *not* believe that it's possible to stimulate different _regions _of a *single *muscle. If this were possible you could shape a muscle
> 
> I *do* believe that hitting a muscle from every angle possible will give the greatest results and best development and that muscles grow as a whole. Regardless of where you may be sore, the entire muscle will grow proportionally, not in parts.


I agree with all of this.  And I will follow your example and also be done with these debates.

Futile.


----------



## DimebagDarrell (Jun 21, 2004)

*back to the original question at hand...*

you won't be able to really fill in the gap between your pecs.  i, unfortunately, have a large gap between mine.  i can't make them grow closer to eachother, because that would mean physically changing where they attach to my sternum.  it looks kinda weird because theres such a large space, but such is life.  some people have really peaky biceps and some don't.  that's not training, its genetics, like CowPimp explained in the first reply here.

and about concentration curls targeting the peak of the bicep, its because more than one muscle is recruited curing a curl.  you have the *biceps brachii* which is the peak part, and the *brachialis* that sits under the biceps brachii.


----------



## P-funk (Jun 22, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> I refuse to get into these debates anymore, they go no where.
> 
> I do *not* believe that it's possible to stimulate different _regions _of a *single *muscle. If this were possible you could shape a muscle
> 
> I *do* believe that hitting a muscle from every angle possible will give the greatest results and best development and that muscles grow as a whole. Regardless of where you may be sore, the entire muscle will grow proportionally, not in parts.


 
  I am staying out of this one!!  I can't stand this debate


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 22, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio 


> I refuse to get into these debates anymore, they go no where.
> 
> I do *not* believe that it's possible to stimulate different _regions _of a *single *muscle. If this were possible you could shape a muscle
> 
> I *do* believe that hitting a muscle from every angle possible will give the greatest results and best development and that muscles grow as a whole. Regardless of where you may be sore, the entire muscle will grow proportionally, not in parts.


I do agree with all of this, the whole point of this was that I've been wondering if there was something I wasn't doing or an exercise that I didn't know about that would hit the "whole" area even more filling in everything other than the exercises I mentioned.

But I guess I'm doing everything possible to fill in the "whole" area & maybe this particular spot will catch up with the rest of the upper chest. The clevage does go from bottom to top, but I just think that with the amount of weights I'm lifting & have lifted before my thyroid problem, that it should be much bigger.

I see some guys whether it's steroids or natural reall thick in this whole area & have huge slabs of muscle completely filling in the entire upper chest including this one spot below the center of the neck.


----------



## Rauschgift (Jun 22, 2004)

Johnny,
There is more to lifting and strength than just moving some weight around. You had mentioned in a previous post to Premeir that if you stop doing incline presses you would get weak and lose size. If you stop doing a certain movement your nervous system and endocrine system become unfamiliar with the stimuli it takes to achieve that press. That is why when you start a new movement or something you have not done in a long time you will shake when performing it. Luckily though or bodys adapt very quickly and you will see strenght increase rapidly usually within in a week or two. Those strenth increase are largely due to your nervous system becoming more efficient at a given movement.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 22, 2004)

Rauschgift 


> Johnny,
> There is more to lifting and strength than just moving some weight around. You had mentioned in a previous post to Premeir that if you stop doing incline presses you would get weak and lose size. If you stop doing a certain movement your nervous system and endocrine system become unfamiliar with the stimuli it takes to achieve that press. That is why when you start a new movement or something you have not done in a long time you will shake when performing it. Luckily though or bodys adapt very quickly and you will see strenght increase rapidly usually within in a week or two. Those strenth increase are largely due to your nervous system becoming more efficient at a given movement.


Do you really think I didn't know that already? Like I've said in other threads I change my routines & exercises every 3-4 weeks at most to shock the muscle as doing one particular movement for more than 4 or 5 weeks will become counterproductive as the muscle has gotten used to the movement.

As I've also said you need to lift heavy & put great pressure on a muscle to make it grow. You will not grow lifting light weights.


----------



## DrChiro (Jun 22, 2004)

As everyone stated...there is really no such thing as isolation exercises in the terms that most people associate with the word. So get that idea out of your head.

What MAY work is stimulating more muscle fibers....it is possible that your lifting technique or just the genetic make-up of your pectoralis major. The only way to truly work all the fibers is overload (or some believe pre-exhaust works)

overload--> try some REALLY heavy partials for bench press at the beginning of your workout to stimulate more fiber recruitment....then finish up with 2-3 other full range chest exercises.

pre-exhaust-->try 3 sets of medium weight flys till failure.....then go bench. The idea is that you fatigue all of your slow twitch fibers so much that you then have to recruit your fast twitch fibers to handle the weight. (i personally am not a big fan of this type of training but i have seen people get good results with it and i think its a cool "shock" method just to shake things up a bit every few months)

(i understand that Johnnny will not give a shit about this post....but maybe some others may find it useful or comment back so we can talk and share info)


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 22, 2004)

DrChiro 
So you're saying bicep concentration curls aren't isolating the bicep's peak compared to doing standing barbell curls?

Or Side delt raises aren't isolating the side delts in comparision to doing just military presses?

If side delt raises & bicep concentration curls aren't isolatioin exercises, than what are they?


----------



## Rauschgift (Jun 22, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Rauschgift
> 
> Do you really think I didn't know that already?


Yeah REALLY I don't think you know jack shit. To be completely honest I think my 6yo daughter has a firmer understanding of exercise physiology. I think you have a firm grasp of just about every myth that there is when it comes to weight lifting. Except you believe it to be true. IMO you should do much more reading and listening and less running your mouth. What is truly funny is how you post a question and when people try to educate you on it you argue with them.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 22, 2004)

Rauschgift 


> Yeah REALLY I don't think you know jack shit. To be completely honest I think my 6yo daughter has a firmer understanding of exercise physiology. I think you have a firm grasp of just about every myth that there is when it comes to weight lifting. Except you believe it to be true. IMO you should do much more reading and listening and less running your mouth. What is truly funny is how you post a question and when people try to educate you on it you argue with them.


It's called sarcasm dude.

You basically told me stuff I learned about training when I was in grade 9. I've learned much more over the last 10yrs.

If you haven't read anything I've written here, you see that I am doing most of the things already that ppl have recommended.

The whole point was to know if there wasn't something I haven't tried that would cause more over all upper chest growth.


----------



## Rauschgift (Jun 22, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Rauschgift
> The whole point was to know if there wasn't something I haven't tried that would cause more over all upper chest growth.


And you are making my point for me. AGAIN if you had any understanding of exercise physiology you would not be asking that question. So, if you do not know what you are talking about listen to those that do. Scientia est potestas!


----------



## nikegurl (Jun 22, 2004)

Pitboss said:
			
		

> So we are on a page and half of everyone saying no you can not make one section of your chest grow. It all grows or doesn't grow at all.
> 
> It's like watering a tree. If you water only the south side will the north side stop growing??? I isolated the water and the south should be growing more than the north right?? NO it's the same freaking tree!!!!
> 
> You can make your left chest bigger than your right though


That was an awesome way of explaining it!


----------



## nikegurl (Jun 22, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> DrChiro
> So you're saying...side delt raises aren't isolating the side delts in comparision to doing just military presses?
> 
> If side delt raises & bicep concentration curls aren't isolatioin exercises, than what are they?


Hey Johnny - maybe an anatomy lesson would help.  The shoulder muscle is entirely different than the chest.  There really ARE 3 heads to the shoulder.  So you can work the medial delt in an isolation movement vs. the entire shoulder w/the compound military press.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 22, 2004)

Rauschgift



> And you are making my point for me. AGAIN if you had any understanding of exercise physiology you would not be asking that question. So, if you do not know what you are talking about listen to those that do. Scientia est potestas!


Like I said I do know what I am talking about & I do know everything that everyone has said here. About working your upper chest as a whole & so on.

I just wanted to know if there was one exercise that I didn't know that would cause greater growth than the things that I've mentioned I'm doing already.

Nikegirl

{quote] Hey Johnny - maybe an anatomy lesson would help. The shoulder muscle is entirely different than the chest. There really ARE 3 heads to the shoulder. So you can work the medial delt in an isolation movement vs. the entire shoulder w/the compound military press.[/quote] 
Again you are telling me things I already knew in grade 9. There is the rear delt which rear delt flies work & isolate the area, then there is the side delt which side delt raises isolate that area & then there is the front delts. To develop overall size/strength to the shoulders military presses & dumbell presses are ideal, but you can isolate just the front delts with front delt raises with dumbells.

Like I said I learned all of this stuff along time ago. I'm looking for something new that I might not have tried yet.


----------



## tucker01 (Jun 22, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Like I said I learned all of this stuff along time ago. I'm looking for something new that I might not have tried yet.


If you knew all this info since grade nine then why are you asking questions like 



			
				Johnnny said:
			
		

> DrChiro
> So you're saying bicep concentration curls aren't isolating the bicep's peak compared to doing standing barbell curls?
> 
> Or Side delt raises aren't isolating the side delts in comparision to doing just military presses?
> ...


BTW Bicep peak decelopment is genetic.  Just like your concerns with your middle and upper chest is, more than likely.


----------



## nikegurl (Jun 22, 2004)

you say you know all this stuff but your shoulder example has nothing to do with the upper/lower/middle/inner/outer chest issue.  that's why i said it seemed like you needed to brush up on muscle anatomy.


----------



## Arnold (Jun 22, 2004)




----------



## CowPimp (Jun 22, 2004)

Is it just me, or does every thread that Johnnny starts end up being a never-ending debate spearheaded by the originator himself?


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 22, 2004)

IainDaniel



> If you knew all this info since grade nine then why are you asking questions like


 
I was asking those questions to make a point. I already knew that stuff, I was proving a point.



> BTW Bicep peak decelopment is genetic. Just like your concerns with your middle and upper chest is, more than likely.


There is truth to that. But genetics will only take you so far. Hard training & eating enough food & dedication will take you further, & then the use of drugs will take you even further.


I don't think that I'm someone who was born with good genetics as I used to be a small 5ft8 220lb, 43inch waisted kid in highschool & it took me along time to build up to 227lbs at 5ft10 with descent condition & power. & even now after my hyper thyroid problem I'm still managing to develop my body into good condition with some good size at 210lbs & my condition is coming back very well.

I have greatly developed my bicep peak by hard & intense training & diet.

But as for overall upper chest development mainly that area of the upper chest that's causing me difficulty, that is probably genetic. Same as my traps, they get thick in the back, but at the top of my shoulders they don't gain height even though I train them hard & heavy squeezing & hold every rep at the top of every rep as I aim for my ears when I do shrugs.

nikegurl



> you say you know all this stuff but your shoulder example has nothing to do with the upper/lower/middle/inner/outer chest issue. that's why i said it seemed like you needed to brush up on muscle anatomy.


I know the shoulder example has nothing to do lower/middle/upper chest. It was just an example just as I said it was.


----------



## Var (Jun 22, 2004)




----------



## Mudge (Jun 22, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> DrChiro
> So you're saying bicep concentration curls aren't isolating the bicep's peak compared to doing standing barbell curls?


You can't isolate a peak.


----------



## Var (Jun 22, 2004)

For Johnnny...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764554220/qid=1087933062/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-3695268-6995340?v=glance&s=books


----------



## Jodi (Jun 22, 2004)

This is some good shit.


----------



## nikegurl (Jun 22, 2004)

anyone care to guess whether he does it on purpose or if it really does "just turn out this way" whenever we discuss training issues with johnny?


----------



## Var (Jun 22, 2004)

I used to think he was just trying to stir shit.  If you remember, when he first joined some dude from another board was bashing him saying he was a trouble maker.  Now I'm starting to think he's just really dense and doesnt know any better.  I dont expect ANYONE to have knowledge when they come here.  I didnt know shit when I was a newbie...I still have a lot to learn.  It starts to wear on me when a person is incapable /unwilling to learn.  Too many people have spent their time trying to explain this.


----------



## nikegurl (Jun 22, 2004)

Var said:
			
		

> I dont expect ANYONE to have knowledge when they come here. I didnt know shit when I was a newbie...I still have a lot to learn. It starts to wear on me when a person is incapable /unwilling to learn. Too many people have spent their time trying to explain this.


  there's nothing wrong with not knowing stuff.  the problem is when you don't know much AND you're sure that you do.


----------



## DimebagDarrell (Jun 22, 2004)

the best part is he keeps trying to "prove a point" when the point is always f-ed up


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 22, 2004)

Mudge 


> You can't isolate a peak.


Than how come if I stop doing some form of concentration curl or preacher curl for say 5 or 6 weeks & just do barbell curls & hammer curls, how come I start losing my peak to my biceps pretty quickly? & how come when I go back to doing concentration curls or preacher curls my peak returns within a couple of weeks?

Var



> I used to think he was just trying to stir shit. If you remember, when he first joined some dude from another board was bashing him saying he was a trouble maker. Now I'm starting to think he's just really dense and doesnt know any better. I dont expect ANYONE to have knowledge when they come here. I didnt know shit when I was a newbie...I still have a lot to learn. It starts to wear on me when a person is incapable /unwilling to learn. Too many people have spent their time trying to explain this.


Dude you don't know me for sh!t or what I know & have learned over the past 10yrs & am still learning. I think you are the dense one for posting this reply.
Like I've already said I already knew everything that has been said here.

My only inquiry was to know if there was something I hadn't tried yet & this got way blown out of proportion, but that's not on my hands.

All that I was requesting was a simple reply with some exercise ideas that maybe I hadn't tried that would really cause some serious upper chest growth filling in the entire area as a whole. It's that simple.

The few of you here can think what you like about me that's your perogative, but all I can say is picture time is coming. & don't forget I've battled back to get to 210lbs post hyper thyroid as opposed to being much bigger & with descent condition at 227lbs at 5ft10. I don't care what some of you think as you don't know me & you don't know what I know.

Somewhere along the line of this thread there were major misunderstandings & that's how this whole mess got started.

Again simple request to the thread was if there were any upper chest exercises other than the ones that I'd already mentioned that I could be doing that I don't know about or have never tried.

That's all. But nobody can seem to give me an answer.


----------



## Var (Jun 22, 2004)

If you were just wondering what exercises you could add to your routine, you should have said that.  The fact is, you turned this into another "muscle shaping" debate and now you're back-peddling.  I have no personal grudge against you, but it gets old to read the same thing over and over from the same person.  If you already know "everything that has been said here" and are just looking for new chest exercises, dont title the thread, "Trying to fill in the inner or middle part of my upper chest".


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 22, 2004)

Var




> If you were just wondering what exercises you could add to your routine, you should have said that. The fact is, you turned this into another "muscle shaping" debate and now you're back-peddling. I have no personal grudge against you, but it gets old to read the same thing over and over from the same person. If you already know "everything that has been said here" and are just looking for new chest exercises, dont title the thread, "Trying to fill in the inner or middle part of my upper chest".


I did say that, in fact it was one of the first things I said & one of you guys misunderstood me & this whole thing blew out of proportion.

Why shouldn't I title the thread that? B/c that's what I'm trying to do. I already listed some of the exercises I was using & the poundages I was using in those exercises to show I wasn't dickn' around on my chest routine.

I've used 130lb dumbells in each hand for a good 7 reps for incline dumbell press with a full stretch & the upper chest still doesn't entirely fill out the way it should be.


----------



## Var (Jun 22, 2004)




----------



## Johnnny (Jun 22, 2004)

Var 

Nothing intelligent to say now?


----------



## Var (Jun 22, 2004)

I think the "tard" smiley expresses my opinion pretty clearly.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 22, 2004)

Var 
I personally think that smiley is there to describe you.


Hey I said what I had to say.


----------



## Var (Jun 22, 2004)

Seriously, fess up...you're writing a college thesis on something related to internet relationships, chat rooms, message board drama...something! There's no way you are for real!

You go off on these diatribes in every one of your threads.  Have you noticed that?


----------



## nikegurl (Jun 22, 2004)

one minute you say you agree with people (i.e.  you cannot isolate the bicep peak) and then the very next post you're saying when you eliminate isolation exercises (i.e. concentration curls) you quickly lose your peak.

pick one johnny.  do you think 1)  you can do certain exercises to specifically develop a peaked bicep or 2)  do you think you can develop your bicep and how much it peaks or doesn't is determined by your genetics.


----------



## Var (Jun 22, 2004)

I think its time to start ignoring this guy. I felt bad for the beating he was taking for a while, but I really think he's yanking our chains. This is either some kind of experiment, he's really some bored pre-teen trying to entertain himself, or he has an extra 21st chromosome. In any case, I'm done.


----------



## PreMier (Jun 22, 2004)

[img2]http://www.xtrememass.com/forum//images/smilies/8603/ban.gif[/img2]


----------



## Var (Jun 22, 2004)

I dont think thats the IM way.  I like how laid back things are here.  Even if it means putting up with shit stirers.

Anyone know if the Ignore option is still available?


----------



## DimebagDarrell (Jun 22, 2004)

hit UserCP at the top left and then go to buddy/ignore lists


----------



## Var (Jun 22, 2004)




----------



## Var (Jun 22, 2004)

Cool little option.  Too bad you still see the thread and his name on each of his posts.


----------



## Mudge (Jun 22, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Than how come if I stop doing some form of concentration curl or preacher curl for say 5 or 6 weeks & just do barbell curls & hammer curls, how come I start losing my peak to my biceps pretty quickly? & how come when I go back to doing concentration curls or preacher curls my peak returns within a couple of weeks?


I dont train with you, so I would not know since I dont watch your form or routine. I dont do concentration curls and my peak has always been there.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 22, 2004)

Var





> Seriously, fess up...you're writing a college thesis on something related to internet relationships, chat rooms, message board drama...something! There's no way you are for real!
> 
> You go off on these diatribes in every one of your threads. Have you noticed that?


Personally I think that's what you're doing right now. I'm out of University already. 

As for going off on these diatribes in threads, I'm only reacting to the way certain ppl respond to them. What starts out as a normal thread, there's one or 2 ppl that turn it into something completely opposite such as this.



> I think its time to start ignoring this guy. I felt bad for the beating he was taking for a while, but I really think he's yanking our chains. This is either some kind of experiment, he's really some bored pre-teen trying to entertain himself, or he has an extra 21st chromosome. In any case, I'm done.


Feel bad? Who gives a #$%^? I don't care. Like I said already this thread has been blown way out of proportion. It was just a simple question that a couple of ppl misunderstood & then all hell broke lose.

nikegirl



> one minute you say you agree with people (i.e. you cannot isolate the bicep peak) and then the very next post you're saying when you eliminate isolation exercises (i.e. concentration curls) you quickly lose your peak.
> 
> pick one johnny. do you think 1) you can do certain exercises to specifically develop a peaked bicep or 2) do you think you can develop your bicep and how much it peaks or doesn't is determined by your genetics.


Hey I never said anything about agreeing with not being able to isolate the bicep peak. 

Like I said if I just do standing barbell curls & hammer curls with no preacher or concentration curl for peak I start losing my peak but my biceps will still be thick & strong but not much peak. & when I start doing preacer or concentration curls again my peak returns. So what does that say?

As for genetics, I've seen ppl with sh!ty genetics without drugs develop a major peak in their biceps.

& again this has gone way off topic here. Once again, my question was that maybe there was an upper chest exercise that I didn't mention at the beginning that I didn't know about that would really hit the entire area hard causing overall upper chest development. That's all I wanted to know if I had tried everything or was their some unkown exercise.

Anything I've said is in response to the replies given.


----------



## tucker01 (Jun 23, 2004)

Johnny just because some one has shitty genetics, it doesn't mean that everything is poor.  Maybe they lack in legs and back, but have a killer peak in there Bi's.

Just like your instance, no exercise is going to develop a certain part of you chest, it grows as a whole muscle.  Maybe your genetics (ie. muscle insertion points, don't allow for as much growth as you would like to see.)


----------



## P-funk (Jun 23, 2004)

IainDaniel said:
			
		

> Johnny just because some one has shitty genetics, it doesn't mean that everything is poor. Maybe they lack in legs and back, but have a killer peak in there Bi's.
> 
> Just like your instance, no exercise is going to develop a certain part of you chest, it grows as a whole muscle. Maybe your genetics (ie. muscle insertion points, don't allow for as much growth as you would like to see.)


 
 Gotta do the best with what ya got.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 23, 2004)

IainDaniel 


> Johnny just because some one has shitty genetics, it doesn't mean that everything is poor. Maybe they lack in legs and back, but have a killer peak in there Bi's.
> 
> Just like your instance, no exercise is going to develop a certain part of you chest, it grows as a whole muscle. Maybe your genetics (ie. muscle insertion points, don't allow for as much growth as you would like to see.)


Like I already said I know that the upper chest grows as a whole.

From the beginning I've said that my upper chest has always seemed to fill out in the outer area of the upper chest & not so much in the area right below the center of your neck. You'd think that someone who can incline bench 245lbs or more & 120-130lb dumbells in each hand for incline dumbell press would be getting major OVERALL upper chest growth.


----------



## tucker01 (Jun 23, 2004)

There is no such thing as an upper chest muscle, that is the point.

It is the Pectoralis, and that is the whole chest, so therefore you can not just grow one part of that muscle by itself.  Unlike the shoulder which made up of three different heads (front, Lateral, rear) in which you can target for instance Rear delts.  

However you can not target your upper chest, just your chest in general.  Maybe as your chest as a whole grows, you will see that region fill in a bit.


----------



## Rauschgift (Jun 23, 2004)

I think he forgot to take his Lithium. When I read through this thread in its entirety it's as if he has split personalities. The down side is none of them are good.


----------



## tucker01 (Jun 23, 2004)




----------



## Johnnny (Jun 23, 2004)

IainDaniel 




> There is no such thing as an upper chest muscle, that is the point.
> 
> It is the Pectoralis, and that is the whole chest, so therefore you can not just grow one part of that muscle by itself.


I realize that the pectoral muscles are a whole. But if you don't do all areas of your chest lower, middle & upper, whatever areas you aren't working will simply not develop.

I've seen guys who just do flat bench press & some pec dec. No upper chest movements. Yet their flat bench press is strong. Some ppl have told them they should be doing their upper chest as well. When they've started with incline bench for the first time they couldn't even do 165lbs on the incline bench while their flat bench press was 275lbs for a good 6 reps.

Now what does that say?

Rauschgift



> I think he forgot to take his Lithium. When I read through this thread in its entirety it's as if he has split personalities. The down side is none of them are good.


WTF are you talking about? Like I've already said someone misunderstood what I was saying & blew this thing out of proportion. So anything that I might have said in reply was just me reacting to all of this.

Again, the point since the beginning was to know if there was an upper chest movement that maybe I didn't know about that would fill out the whole area better. That's it that's all.

& no one seems to have an answer just criticism. So that tells me something about some of you.


----------



## Rauschgift (Jun 23, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> IainDaniel
> 
> I've seen guys who just do flat bench press & some pec dec. No upper chest movements. Yet their flat bench press is strong. Some ppl have told them they should be doing their upper chest as well. When they've started with incline bench for the first time they couldn't even do 165lbs on the incline bench while their flat bench press was 275lbs for a good 6 reps.
> 
> Now what does that say?


I am going to say this one more time...if you read back through this thread I have already explained how the neurological system affects strength when lifting. Your response to that post was " yeah I know I learned that when I was nine" Now here you are asking the same damn question. Is this some kind of joke or are you truly mental? I have to tell you, I am normally very patient but damn you are the true test of patience.


----------



## Saturday Fever (Jun 23, 2004)

Stop feeding the troll. Hopefully he'll go find another bridge to live under.


----------



## Mudge (Jun 23, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Some ppl have told them they should be doing their upper chest as well. When they've started with incline bench for the first time they couldn't even do 165lbs on the incline bench while their flat bench press was 275lbs for a good 6 reps.
> 
> Now what does that say?


Pretty likely horrible shoulder strength, proper bench form on the flats dont require much in the way of shoulders. Incline also requires more arm strength, where flat bench again for me doesn't require a whole lot other than the lockout.


----------



## tucker01 (Jun 23, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> IainDaniel
> I realize that the pectoral muscles are a whole. But if you don't do all areas of your chest lower, middle & upper, whatever areas you aren't working will simply not develop.
> 
> I've seen guys who just do flat bench press & some pec dec. No upper chest movements. Yet their flat bench press is strong. Some ppl have told them they should be doing their upper chest as well. When they've started with incline bench for the first time they couldn't even do 165lbs on the incline bench while their flat bench press was 275lbs for a good 6 reps.
> ...


This is what I say quoted from Page 2



			
				Rauschgift said:
			
		

> Johnny,
> There is more to lifting and strength than just moving some weight around. You had mentioned in a previous post to Premeir that if you stop doing incline presses you would get weak and lose size. If you stop doing a certain movement your nervous system and endocrine system become unfamiliar with the stimuli it takes to achieve that press. That is why when you start a new movement or something you have not done in a long time you will shake when performing it. Luckily though or bodys adapt very quickly and you will see strenght increase rapidly usually within in a week or two. Those strenth increase are largely due to your nervous system becoming more efficient at a given movement.


I do think that you need to hit muscles (ie chest) from different planes in order to stimulate optimal growth, however you cannot Isolate something that doesn't exist (ie the upper chest) you can isolate the Pec as a whole.


----------



## BuzzU (Jun 23, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> no one seems to have an answer just criticism. So that tells me something about some of you.


??? WTF!!!  Pretty much everyone has anwered you.  The answer is *NO!!!*


----------



## Saturday Fever (Jun 23, 2004)

If you can't isolate parts of the pec, why then does "optimal growth" occur when you "hit muscles from different planes"?


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 23, 2004)

Rauschgift



> I am going to say this one more time...if you read back through this thread I have already explained how the neurological system affects strength when lifting. Your response to that post was " yeah I know I learned that when I was nine" Now here you are asking the same damn question. Is this some kind of joke or are you truly mental? I have to tell you, I am normally very patient but damn you are the true test of patience.


I said I learned this stuff when I was in grade 9 not 9yrs old.

But again you aren't answering the question. & no I'm not mental as you say.

It's just a simple damn f$%#^&* question that no one is able to answer except for a couple of intelligent ppl who said maybe it was genetics preventing me from having my entire upper chest fill out much more including the area below the center of my neck.

& you didn't answer the question on my reply you just quoted either. About ppl I've seen who only do flat bench press & pec dec with no upper chest work. Their flat bench greatly increases & when they finally realize they should be doing upper chest movements, they are really weak in them compared to their flat bench.

I was the same way when I first started training. I for a long time only did flat bench press & some pec dec & flat dumbell flies. My flat bench press got really strong, but I finally decided to start doing incline bench press it was very weak compared to my flat bench press. But within time my incline bench press got much stronger & could see my upper chest growing much more.

But yet again, all I wanted to know from the beginning was why my upper chest was mainly filling out in the outer upper chest area as opposed to entirely filling in as a whole muscle & if there were some upper chest exercises I didn't know about or haven't tried.

Are these 2 questions that difficult to answer? I guess so b/c all I'm seeing is criticism.

I've only heard a couple of answers from a couple of ppl saying it's probably genetic. & you know what? Out of everything that went on here, that is the only thing that has made sense.

Just 2 simple questions & a few of you blew it all out of proportion. This thread could've been over & done with on the day I posted it if my 2 simple questions had just been answered & all of this could've been avoided.


----------



## nikegurl (Jun 23, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Like I already said I know that the upper chest grows as a whole.
> 
> From the beginning I've said that my upper chest has always seemed to fill out in the outer area of the upper chest & not so much in the area right below the center of your neck. You'd think that someone who can incline bench 245lbs or more & 120-130lb dumbells in each hand for incline dumbell press would be getting major OVERALL upper chest growth.


How many people believe Johnny is doing inclines with 130 lb dbs?


----------



## tucker01 (Jun 23, 2004)

I kinda burned myself with that statement didn't I 

Prolly shouldn't have used the word "optimal", "more growth" would have been more suitable.  

My reasoning would be the stimulus to different stabilizers would allow you to lift more weight, to promote "more growth"


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 23, 2004)

Mudge 


> Pretty likely horrible shoulder strength, proper bench form on the flats dont require much in the way of shoulders. Incline also requires more arm strength, where flat bench again for me doesn't require a whole lot other than the lockout.


Well that's probably the most intelligent thing I read lately here. & I agree with you on that.

The ppl I mentioned who finally started doing incline bench & other upper chest movements had really weak shoulders. They couldn't do more than 115lbs on military press.

The same goes for myself. My shoulders were pretty weak when I first started training & I noticed that as I did incline bench & did more shoulders, both areas got stronger at the same time.

& everyone knows they shouldn't do chest & shoulders on the same day or on back to back days as there is a lot of shoulder movement when you do your chest.


BuzzU



> ??? WTF!!! Pretty much everyone has anwered you. The answer is *NO!!!*


Like I said I heard a few intelligent answers saying it was probably a genetic thing which make sense, but I believe it was Nikegirl who actually listed some exercises that might help which is all I wanted, but the exercises she gave I had already been doing for a long time but of course I change every 3-4 weeks.

But since then all I've read is that you can't isolate one area of your chest & blah blah blah.

Maybe if more ppl answered the way nikegirl did listing some exercises that might help & the way those few other ppl did saying it was probably a genetic thing, than this thread would have been much simpler.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 23, 2004)

nikegurl



> How many people believe Johnny is doing inclines with 130 lb dbs?


2 things, 1st what's so hard to believe about that?

& 2nd I was doing 130lbs in each hand with a full stretch when I was about 227lbs & was able to incline bench around 265lbs for 4 reps.

Now I'm doing 115-120lb dumbbells on incline dumbbell press for a good 5-7 reps as I'm doing 245lbs on incline bench press for 5-7 reps currently.

I've seen guys do 150lb dumbbells on incline dumbbell press for 5 or more reps.


----------



## nikegurl (Jun 23, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> nikegurl
> 
> I've seen guys do 150lb dumbbells on incline dumbbell press for 5 or more reps.


so have I - many times.  (i used to train at Gold's Venice so i'm plenty used to seeing heavy weights being used)

i'm just surprised to hear you're using the 120s and 130s when your knowledge is so "elementary"


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 23, 2004)

nikegurl



> so have I - many times. (i used to train at Gold's Venice so i'm plenty used to seeing heavy weights being used)
> 
> i'm just surprised to hear you're using the 120s and 130s when your knowledge is so "elementary"


Elementary knowledge? WTF? Like I said before I already know the information that ppl have said here, I learned it when I first started training in grade 9. Besides you don't know me or know what I've learned & who I've learned it from well except for one of the ppl anyway.

Like I have also said somewhere along the line in this thread ppl misunderstood on what I was saying. Mainly about the upper chest filling out as a whole & not capable of filling one side of it. I already knew that.

I only wanted there was something I wasn't doing or didn't know about or something I hadn't tried that would really fill out the upper chest much more.

& as for using 115lbs, 120's & 130's? When I was about 227 120's & 130's was pretty easy seeing I was incline bench pressing about 265 for 4 reps.

Right now I'm doing 120's for 3 or 4 reps. 95lbs is really easy. But for me in general I find dumbell presses to be much easier than doing barbell presses especially for upper chest movements so I usually do more bar exercises as I find it gives more size & strength.

But with the weights that I said I used to be able to lift before my newly developed (at the time) hyper thyroid problem & the weights I'm lifting now, that is why I say that you underestimate me & what I know & how hard I train.


----------



## DrChiro (Jun 23, 2004)

I love when Johnnny posts...it's my entertainment for the day (or as long as his threads are allowed to run)

But since I always want to help...let me share this:

There is this new technique out of Germany...I just read about it...and it is designed to build your inner chest. 

Step 1: remove your clothes

Step 2: sit on the edge of your bed or a chair

Step 3: lean foward as far as possible, placing your head between your legs

Step 4: NOW.... BLOW YOURSELF DUMBASS!

did you learn that technique in 9th grade? 

Or was it in 9th grade that you learned to be an obnoxious, ignorant, shit?

because you sure as hell didnt learn anything about bodybuilding in 9th grade...or any other grade....nor do you seem to learn anything here....even though many people on here (that I have the utmost respect for) have been kind enough to give you their time and share their knowledge with you.

(damn...i'm being rude today...oh well)


----------



## tucker01 (Jun 23, 2004)

YEah but your being funny as hell as well


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 23, 2004)

DrChiro



> I love when Johnnny posts...it's my entertainment for the day (or as long as his threads are allowed to run)
> 
> But since I always want to help...let me share this:
> 
> ...



Sorry dude I don't know that technique. But you know an awful lot about that technique yourself. I'm guessing it's your pass time when you aren't busy being an immature know it all.

As for learning about bodybuilding in grade 9 I sure did. & I've learned even more.

As for accepting ppl's advice here, I've accepted plenty of advice & tried new things learned in this forum.

But as for this particular thread, I've only heard about 3 or 4 intelligent & real answers. The rest is hot air such as your thread.

It's obvious you don't know how to answer my simple little question or you would've by now. Instead you're breathing out hot air.

Either post something related to the thread & my 2 questions, or mind your own business.

I think that you are someone who thinks he knows everything as that's the impression you give, but when it comes down to it you just leave replies such as this one.

Again just 2 simple questions & only a few ppl had intelligent answerw & even suggested a couple of things that I could do, but I have already been doing them.


----------



## DimebagDarrell (Jun 23, 2004)

what i think is funny johnnny is when you are given several intelligent answers you still refuse to accept them.  you say people misunderstand you in almost every thread.  maybe youre just a really poor communicator.  please explain to me why this shit goes on ONLY in your threads, and why you continue to argue against these "intelligent & real answers"


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 23, 2004)

DimebagDarrell	



> what i think is funny johnnny is when you are given several intelligent answers you still refuse to accept them. you say people misunderstand you in almost every thread. maybe youre just a really poor communicator. please explain to me why this shit goes on ONLY in your threads, and why you continue to argue against these "intelligent & real answers"




I have accepted the intelligent answers & intelligent advice given by a few ppl who replied to this thread maybe 4 ppl gave intelligent answers while the rest was BS.

As for certain things being misunderstood on "my threads" that's not true. I've seen plenty of misunderstandings with many different ppl on this forum in many different types of threads inclunding threads started by some of the ppl here that I wasn't even apart of. So as you say this shit only going in my threads isn't true as I've gone through old threads even before I joined & seen lots of confusion & misunderstandings which is bound to happen.

I'm not arguing intelligent answers, I'm only arguing criticism & BS.

So I guess this means that you don't have an answer to my 2 questions do you?

Like I said all I wanted to know was maybe there was something I hadn't tried before & why that section of my upper chest isn't filling out as a whole as much as it should be in that area. But I guess you can't answer.


----------



## DimebagDarrell (Jun 23, 2004)

i answered your question on the second page smart guy.

and what do you mean things not being misunderstood?  you said yourself that things were getting misunderstood


----------



## CowPimp (Jun 23, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> DrChiro
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I answered you in the very first reply.  125 posts later, you are still arguing with the advice people have to offer.  You cannot do what you are trying to do, plain and simple.


----------



## JLB001 (Jun 23, 2004)

Some people just don't get it. All they think we do is    .

Johnnny..don't ask then agrue with us till you turn blue in the face. You need to get your head out of the sand dude. Otherwise your just  and wasting our time and effort. I think you just enjoy stirring up the crap you do for no good reason what so ever.

And for another thing.....DrChiro is far from being a know it all.  Maybe you should consult your books some more to get your answers.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 23, 2004)

DimebagDarrell




> i answered your question on the second page smart guy.


Yes & you are one of those few ppl I mentioned who did answer intelligently. You said it's probably a genetic thing. I mentioned that some ppl said it was a genetic thing. So you aren't one of the ppl I'm talking about. b/c I agree with you. Just as I mentioned about my traps, they get thick in the back area, but they don't get much height to them up top which is a genetic thing. I have a friend who doesn't train his traps much & they gain a lot of height. I train my traps hard & they get thick in the back & strong, but not much height.
I have another friend who I played football with who had amazingly thick calves & he never trained them. Probably a genetic thing, I'm not disagreeing with you on the genetic things. Look at Dorian Yates even though on massive drugs, he has one of the best thickest & widest backs in the business or Arnold with his huge guns (even with steroids). Steroids only take you so far as genetics play a major role. Or Roy Callenders huge legs as he had a 600lb squat at a 5ft8 230lb ripped physique.



As for arguing all I want to know is if there's any way I can speed up the filling out area of my entire upper chest? That's it that's all. Pretty simple.

& I am someone who if they stop doing upper chest movements even if I'm still doing a lot of shoulders who will lose upper chest strength & size.


----------



## DimebagDarrell (Jun 23, 2004)

then why the fuck are you getting all pissed at me because i havent answered your question?  see your post, 4th one down from the top of this page.

yes, you can speed up the filling out of the upper chest.  but youll have to speed up development of the WHOLE chest, not just that part.  period.  case closed.  this has been discussed a million times with you.  get it through that thick skull of yours.


----------



## CowPimp (Jun 23, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> DimebagDarrell
> I mentioned that some ppl said it was a genetic thing. So you aren't one of the ppl I'm talking about. b/c I agree with you. Just as I mentioned about my traps, they get thick in the back area, but they don't get much height to them up top which is a genetic thing.


If you know that this is a genetic thing, then what was the point of this post?  Why wouldn't this same principle apply to your chest?

Later in the same post...



> As for arguing all I want to know is if there's any way I can speed up the filling out area of my entire upper chest? That's it that's all. Pretty simple.
> 
> & I am someone who if they stop doing upper chest movements even if I'm still doing a lot of shoulders who will lose upper chest strength & size.


So do you believe that the shape of a muscle is genetic or not?  You seem very confused...


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 23, 2004)

DimebagDarrell



> then why the fuck are you getting all pissed at me because i havent answered your question? see your post, 4th one down from the top of this page.


If I was I apologize as it's frustration to some of the other responses here



> yes, you can speed up the filling out of the upper chest. but youll have to speed up development of the WHOLE chest, not just that part. period. case closed. this has been discussed a million times with you. get it through that thick skull of yours.


I realize that & I do work all the areas of my chest. I don't just do flat bench press for chest & that's it like some guys do. I do all areas of my chest.

CowPimp



> If you know that this is a genetic thing, then what was the point of this post? Why wouldn't this same principle apply to your chest?


Like I said I thought maybe there was something more I could do that I haven't tried yet that would help more. That's all.



> So do you believe that the shape of a muscle is genetic or not? You seem very confused...


Yes I do & as I just said that I thought maybe there was something more I could do for more development that's all.


----------



## hithard51 (Jun 24, 2004)

johnny i would think incline dumbell flyes would help ya out. also i dont care if chest muscle is one muscle if i dont do decline my lower chest gets weaker and smaller it however does not affect my size in the middle of my chest or upper chest nor does it affect the weight i use. if the incline dumbell flyes dont work it is def. genetics i had a workout partner for about a year who had a big chest and could max a good amount of weight at 315 but his inner chest and upper chest was real small no matter what he did for it he then took roids and it helped by making his chest bigger overall and his inner chest and upper chest grew too but it was still in the same proportion as before he took roids.


----------



## LAM (Jun 24, 2004)

flys are a stretch muscle movement, they do not stimulate hypertrophy like a pressing movement does for the chest...


----------



## DimebagDarrell (Jun 24, 2004)

hithard51 said:
			
		

> johnny i would think incline dumbell flyes would help ya out. also i dont care if chest muscle is one muscle if i dont do decline my lower chest gets weaker and smaller it however does not affect my size in the middle of my chest or upper chest nor does it affect the weight i use. if the incline dumbell flyes dont work it is def. genetics i had a workout partner for about a year who had a big chest and could max a good amount of weight at 315 but his inner chest and upper chest was real small no matter what he did for it he then took roids and it helped by making his chest bigger overall and his inner chest and upper chest grew too but it was still in the same proportion as before he took roids.




you might want to read the whole thread again hithard51.  you may feel that the decline presses help the bottom of the pectorals, but then you go against that at the end of your post and everything else weve talked about here (read the tree analogy).  prince _did_ state that its still good to do these excercises however as it helps stimulate the muscle the best.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 24, 2004)

hithard51 


> johnny i would think incline dumbell flyes would help ya out. also i dont care if chest muscle is one muscle if i dont do decline my lower chest gets weaker and smaller it however does not affect my size in the middle of my chest or upper chest nor does it affect the weight i use. if the incline dumbell flyes dont work it is def. genetics i had a workout partner for about a year who had a big chest and could max a good amount of weight at 315 but his inner chest and upper chest was real small no matter what he did for it he then took roids and it helped by making his chest bigger overall and his inner chest and upper chest grew too but it was still in the same proportion as before he took roids.


So roids didn't help that spot either eh? Still in proportion to the rest of the entire chest & upper chest area. I just see some guys whether they're natural or on juice that are really filled out in the entire upper chest especially the area that I'm talking about right below the center of your neck. I'm just wondering how they get that whole entire upper chest area to fill out.

But yes I've been doing both vertical & horizontal incline dumbell flies with pretty heavy weights as well with a full stretch at the bottom of the fly. The funny thing is I feel the entire upper chest including the area right below the center of your neck. When I do horizontal incline dumbell flies I majorly squeeze & hold my upper chest together at the top of the movement.

But again it's not filling out the entire upper chest including this annoying & stubborn area. So I'm guessing as a few of you have said it's genetic as I said with Dorian's back, or Arnold's arms or Roy's legs. Genetics steroids or not plays a major role in which muscles grow more than others.


LAM

As for flies being a stretch movement yes they are, but when you're using 80's or 90's for vertical incline flies & 70's for horizontal incline flies that's getting pretty heavy for flies & using that much weight with a stretching movement really stretches out & pushes the muscles together. But as you said presses are important as well which is why I do both.


----------



## hithard51 (Jun 25, 2004)

dimebag i dont understand ure post. i said decline helps build ure lower chest because it does how did i go against that at the end of my post? u sound like u have a lot of advice dimebag u must be some huge dude.


----------



## Var (Jun 25, 2004)

How many here think hithard51 is just Johnny with a new screenname?


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 25, 2004)

Var




> How many here think hithard51 is just Johnny with a new screenname?


Sorry dude it's not me.


----------



## Var (Jun 25, 2004)

hithard51, what you believe regarding declines is a very common myth.  You're likely to get slammed for it here because its an old debate which is neverending.  Some choose to believe science...others...not so much.


----------



## hithard51 (Jun 25, 2004)

incline u do to develop upper chest decline lower flat middle.


----------



## Var (Jun 25, 2004)

You and Johnny should work out together.


----------



## Var (Jun 25, 2004)

Go back and read this thread from the beginning.


----------



## hithard51 (Jun 25, 2004)

i read the whole thread what are u trying to say var?  ure chest is one muscle i kno.but u could put more emphasis on a certain area of a muscle to make it grow. ex. doing incline presses doesnt make ure lower chest grow or get ne bigger.


----------



## hithard51 (Jun 25, 2004)

why doesnt people just do flat for chest var? if what ure saying is true i would just be able to do 12 sets of flat and call it a day. also after im done with flat bench and go to incline my middle chest is tired from the flat workout my upper chest however is not.


----------



## LAM (Jun 25, 2004)

hithard51 said:
			
		

> ex. doing incline presses doesnt make ure lower chest grow or get ne bigger.


says who ?


----------



## Var (Jun 25, 2004)

Hithard, if you really read the whole thread, you would know the answers to your questions already


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 25, 2004)

Var

quote from hithard51



> why doesnt people just do flat for chest var? if what ure saying is true i would just be able to do 12 sets of flat and call it a day. also after im done with flat bench and go to incline my middle chest is tired from the flat workout my upper chest however is not.


He does have a good point. I have seen ppl with really good shoulders who never do incline work only 5 or 6 sets of flat bench press & maybe some pec dec. & they can easily bench press 225lbs for 12 reps, but finally decided to start doing some incline work mainly just incline bench press & they can't even do 165lbs on incline bench press & they have good shoulders.

Mudge said having strong shoulders for incline bench or dumbbells is important & I agree, but as I've said I've seen ppl with very strong shoulders who start doing incline bench or dumbbell presses & they are really weak.

Var can you answer that question? If they have a strong flat bench, & strong shoulders but a really, really weak incline bench or incline dumbbell press?

I'd like to hear your response. & don't forget these are natural training ppl.


----------



## Var (Jun 25, 2004)

This has already been answered. People train at different angles for variety. We're constantly fighting adaptation which leads to plateus. We hit a muscle in different ways to "keep it guessing" and continue to grow. It in no way causes the muscle to change its shape. So whats your point? Are u asking me why some people, who dont do inclines, have weak inclines???

I cant believe I'm getting into this again...


----------



## hithard51 (Jun 25, 2004)

incline trains upper chest flat middle decline lower. its simple var


----------



## hithard51 (Jun 25, 2004)

lam did u ever hear ne one say i gotta do some incline presses my lower chest is really lagging?


----------



## Var (Jun 25, 2004)

hithard51 said:
			
		

> incline trains upper chest flat middle decline lower. its simple var


Thanks for simplifying it for me. I was confused.  I'm off to do some preacher curls now.  I really want to build a good peak like Arnold!


----------



## Var (Jun 25, 2004)

Any chance a mod could compare dickhard and John-boys IP's?  They gotta be the same person!


----------



## hithard51 (Jun 25, 2004)

hehe no problem var im glad i could clear that up for ya. also u look like u need alot of advice on training so if ya have ne more questions im here for ya bro.


----------



## Var (Jun 25, 2004)

Thanks Johnnny!  I appreciate any advice your retarded ass can provide.


----------



## Var (Jun 25, 2004)

P.S.  Pls stop jerking off to my photo gallery.  Just because I'm not a big guy, doesnt mean you can fantasize about me being your bitch.  I dont swing that way.


----------



## Var (Jun 25, 2004)

Where's your comeback?  Use whichever screenname you like.  I know it gets confusing.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Jun 25, 2004)

Its still a topic that isnt completely resolved...

 Can certain bodybuilding exercises change the shape of muscles?

by *Paul Cribb, B.H.Sci HMS*
AST Director of Research

 [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]






ot            happy with the width of your "lats" or the peak on your biceps? Can            you really perform specific exercises to improve the shape of your muscles            and your symmetry? For decades legendary bodybuilders have said that            you can change the shape of your muscles. However, scientifically, this            has never been directly examined. Judging by the literature presented            by prominent bodybuilding researcher, Jose Antonio, it is more than            possible. [/font]

           [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Antonio's            research demonstrates that muscle is not simply a bunch of fibers that            attach to bone and provide movement. There are unique differences within            each muscle and within single muscle fibers. Along a single muscle fiber            there can be varying degrees of size, metabolism, contraction characteristics,            and protein composition. Electromyographic activity (EMG) data show            that during a particular exercise there is selective recruitment of            different regions of a muscle and this recruitment alters with variations            of the exercise.[/font]

           [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Muscle            groups do appear to adapt in a region-specific manner. Muscle is a very            malleable component and the area that is stressed is the area that changes!            As Antonio suggests, based on the data presented, it seems bodybuilders            are justified in performing an array of exercises to work a muscle effectively            and varying exercise selection appears vital to maximizing muscle growth.            With specific training, bodybuilders may be able to alter the shape            of their muscles as different exercises work different parts of a muscle.[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] J. Streng              Cond Res. 14(1): 102-113, 2000. [/font]

         While there are many different opinions by researchers and scientists.... I would probably assume that most of it is genetic, but you can aid in development of a muscle by hitting it from all angles, seeing that different exercises recruit more fibers from one area or another...

 Still up in the air.
​


----------



## hithard51 (Jun 25, 2004)

sorry var i dont like talking shit online. thnx for article camaro.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Jun 25, 2004)

Let be say that I have read MANY more articles that claim muscle shaping is impossible, that it is a purely genetic trait. However, there have been a few articles recently that offer the possiblity that shaping the muscle MAY be a possiblity.

 I dont know either way, my way of working out is very simple.

 Squats, Deadlifts, Bench and Military Press.


----------



## hithard51 (Jun 25, 2004)

if i train with a certain exercise and see results then thats what i go with not what a scientist says who never worked out in his life.


----------



## PreMier (Jun 25, 2004)

camarosuper6 said:
			
		

> However, there have been a few articles recently that offer the possiblity that shaping the muscle MAY be a possiblity.


Your up in the night. This is fucking retarded.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 25, 2004)

Var



> This has already been answered. People train at different angles for variety. We're constantly fighting adaptation which leads to plateus. We hit a muscle in different ways to "keep it guessing" and continue to grow. It in no way causes the muscle to change its shape. So whats your point? Are u asking me why some people, who dont do inclines, have weak inclines???
> 
> I cant believe I'm getting into this again...


Yes I agree that you need to keep your muscles guessing & changing every 
3-4 weeks. & yes I know that each individual muscle on a person will develop slightly differently from one person to the next. But my question is just what I've said. I've seen ppl who have strong shoulders which help a lot with incline presses but they don't do any incline presses. They just do flat bench which is very good easily repping out 225lbs on flat bench & then they do some pec dec but no incline work. Then they finally get the sense they should be doing incline presses. They think they're going to be really strong due to their flat bench press but to their surprise, their incline presses are very weak much weaker than they should be. Now why is that? You can't seem to answer the questioni.

I have also seen some ppl with weak inclines, but took the time to really develop their shoulders & at the same time their inclines developed, but not in the case I'm mentioning above. These ppl already had very strong shoulders but very, very weak incline presses. After a few months of working at their incline presses, their incline presses got much better. I guess you really don't know why their incline presses get stronger with work & eating.



> P.S. Pls stop jerking off to my photo gallery. Just because I'm not a big guy, doesnt mean you can fantasize about me being your bitch. I dont swing that way.


Var if that's intended for me I haven't even been to your gallery. But personally it sounds like you are the one with the fantasies you describe in detail. Pretty gross.



> Where's your comeback? Use whichever screenname you like. I know it gets confusing.


Like I said I'm not hithard51. I actually think he knows something more than you do.



> Thanks Johnnny! I appreciate any advice your retarded ass can provide.


Sorry but I'm not going to supply you with any advice with your remarks.
Just out of curiosity have you every done 245 or 265lbs on incline bench press & ever used 115 or 125lb dumbbells for incline dumbbell press? Just wondering. I've seen some guys using 140's & 150's to at my gym.



> Any chance a mod could compare dickhard and John-boys IP's? They gotta be the same person!


Again sorry dude not me. I'm not that sad, but I could see you doing something like that.


----------



## tucker01 (Jun 25, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Sorry but I'm not going to supply you with any advice with your remarks.
> Just out of curiosity have you every done 245 or 265lbs on incline bench press & ever used 115 or 125lb dumbbells for incline dumbbell press? Just wondering. I've seen some guys using 140's & 150's to at my gym.




Who gives a flying fuck whether you can do 600lbs or 50 lbs!!!  Nobody gives a shit what you lift or what I lift, so get over yourself already.

As long as you are getting results do whatever the fuck you want!

Done and out and sick of this fucking nonsense


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 25, 2004)

IainDaniel



> Who gives a flying fuck whether you can do 600lbs or 50 lbs!!! Nobody gives a shit what you lift or what I lift, so get over yourself already.
> 
> As long as you are getting results do whatever the fuck you want!
> 
> Done and out and sick of this fucking nonsense


 
I'm not trying to be cocky or anything, but there are a few ppl here nikegirl for one who think that I'm some weak little guy who can't even do 60's for incline dumbbell press. 

I'm just setting the record straight that I'm not some weak tooth pick who doesn't know what he's doing.

If you also read which proves that I wasn't being cocky is that I also wrote that I've seen guys at my gym doing 140's & 150's for incline dumbbell presses which says that I'm admitting that there are ppl who are stronger than me. No big deal.

Again I'm just setting the record straight for a few of you who think I'm just a tooth pick cause I'm not & I do know many things about training techniques & dieting.

Var still hadn't answered the question by the way about ppl with strong shoulders who don't do inclines who try inclines for the 1st time & they are really weak but eventually develop their incline presses with time.

Again that reply was just a reaction to what's been said here.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Jun 25, 2004)

> Your up in the night. This is fucking retarded.


 Damn man, whats up with that Prem?

 I just posted an article from the AST website about muscle shaping I thought might be interesting.  They are a well known and respected organization.  I dont know either way whether its possible or not, and do not particularly care at this point in my bodybuilding life. I am simply trying to put on as much mass and strength as I can to build me a solid founadation.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 25, 2004)

camarosuper6



> I just posted an article from the AST website about muscle shaping I thought might be interesting. They are a well known and respected organization


If you tried to post it here it didn't work. I'd like to see this link it sounds very interesting.


----------



## CowPimp (Jun 25, 2004)

hithard51 said:
			
		

> lam did u ever hear ne one say i gotta do some incline presses my lower chest is really lagging?


Does it matter if he has heard that?  When a muscle contracts, it contracts as a whole.  Therefore, when you do incline presses, your "lower" chest is contracting as well as your "upper" chest.


----------



## Little Wing (Jun 26, 2004)

.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 26, 2004)

rockgazer69

I like that one RG69


CowPimp



> Does it matter if he has heard that? When a muscle contracts, it contracts as a whole. Therefore, when you do incline presses, your "lower" chest is contracting as well as your "upper" chest.


It is true that the pectoral area is one entire muscle. But my question still stands unanswered.

Why are there some ppl who have strong shoulders who don't do any upper chest work & have a strong flat bench easily repping out 225lbs for 12 reps & maybe do some pec dec, finally decide to do some incline presses, yet are amazed how weak their incline presses are compared to their flat bench. I've seen ppl with strong shoulders as I mention who attempt incline bench for the 1st time & they can't even do 165lbs while they are repping out 225lbs for 12 reps easy on flat bench. Yet with time, patients, & hitting the incline bench hard their incline bench majorly improves & eventually catches up with their flat bench. Why is that they have strong shoulders?

I am someone with strong shoulders & if I stopped doing incline work all together, I know I'd lose a lot from my incline bench if not everything I worked for.


----------



## tucker01 (Jun 26, 2004)

Rauschgift said:
			
		

> Johnny,
> There is more to lifting and strength than just moving some weight around. You had mentioned in a previous post to Premeir that if you stop doing incline presses you would get weak and lose size. If you stop doing a certain movement your nervous system and endocrine system become unfamiliar with the stimuli it takes to achieve that press. That is why when you start a new movement or something you have not done in a long time you will shake when performing it. Luckily though or bodys adapt very quickly and you will see strenght increase rapidly usually within in a week or two. Those strenth increase are largely due to your nervous system becoming more efficient at a given movement.



This is your answer Johnnny already posted quite a few times since page 2


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 26, 2004)

IainDaniel 


> This is your answer Johnnny already posted quite a few times since page 2


Where on page 2? I only see Prince saying to do all areas of your chest & not just one. & he says to do dumbbell work for both middle & upper chest especially flies.

So far that is one of the few best replies next to the genetic factor that I have seen that makes sense.

You still could give your opinion on it?


----------



## Novo (Jun 26, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to be cocky or anything, but there are a few ppl here nikegirl for one who think that I'm some weak little guy who can't even do 60's for incline dumbbell press.
> 
> I'm just setting the record straight that I'm not some weak tooth pick who doesn't know what he's doing <snip> cause I'm not & I do know many things about training techniques & dieting.


Johnnny, no one here is basing their opinion on your training knowledge on your physique ... there's really no need, your words speak VOLUMES as to what you know. Or don't.

And in terms of comparing lifts? I think you'll find that around here a solid knowledge base, a desire to help, and a willingness to LISTEN when appropriate, all go much further toward earning respect than do 140 DB presses ...


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 26, 2004)

Novo 


> Johnnny, no one here is basing their opinion on your training knowledge on your physique ... there's really no need, your words speak VOLUMES as to what you know. Or don't.
> 
> And in terms of comparing lifts? I think you'll find that around here a solid knowledge base, a desire to help, and a willingness to LISTEN when appropriate, all go much further toward earning respect than do 140 DB presses ...


Actually they are if you read one of nikegirl's replies she was very surprised that I could handle that kind of weight b/c she thinks I don't know anything.

& I do listen when it is "appropriate" as you said. & as for earning respect there's a few ppl who have yet to do so in earning mine on this thread.

Prince earned my respect along time ago if if there were some disagreements. I'm not gonna go into who's earned my respect & who hasn't as it would be a wasted of time.

Basically the ppl who have criticised me here & said I don't know anything haven't earned my respect. Those who've said intelligent things have earned my respect. Pretty simple.

But still no one seems to have an answer on why some ppl with strong shoulders who don't do incline presses suddenly want to try them & their incline presses are weak as hell compared to their strong falt bench press. Yet surprisingly enough with time & hitting their upper chest hard, their incline presses improve & get much stronger. Why is that?


----------



## Little Wing (Jun 26, 2004)

It seems to me people are saying it's not really a matter of strength but that the body is unfamiliar with the movement of incline presses when they haven't been done and it just takes the body a short amount of time to become familiar with what it's being asked to do when you start incline presses. It makes perfect sense if I haven't say skated in a couple years n suddenly go I remember how to skate but it takes a while for my body to get it back. I bike a lot so my body is uniformly strong n never falters on what it is familiar with daily but throw a new movement in the mix n it takes a bit to adapt. It doesn't mean that those muscles are weak they are just unfamiliar with that specific movement.


----------



## Little Wing (Jun 26, 2004)

can we lock this fucking thread now?


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 26, 2004)

rockgazer69




> It seems to me people are saying it's not really a matter of strength but that the body is unfamiliar with the movement of incline presses when they haven't been done and it just takes the body a short amount of time to become familiar with what it's being asked to do when you start incline presses. It makes perfect sense if I haven't say skated in a couple years n suddenly go I remember how to skate but it takes a while for my body to get it back. I bike a lot so my body is uniformly strong n never falters on what it is familiar with daily but throw a new movement in the mix n it takes a bit to adapt. It doesn't mean that those muscles are weak they are just unfamiliar with that specific movement.


That's what I've been trying to say. Say you have a guy who has only his whole life been doing say 6 sets of flat bench, some pec dec & flat flies along with some shoulders, back, arms & legs & he has good shoulders.

But one day decides I should be doing incline presses as well & for the 1st time he is surprised how weak his incline bench is compared to his flat bench & military presses & is shocked.

But with time his incline bench press greatly improves & gets stronger but if he stops that movement, than he loses a lot of strength from that movement.

I personally don't believe that if you just work your middle &/or lower region of the pectoral muscle, that your upper region will not improve much if at all depending on the individual. As Prince has said it's import to hit all angles of the pectoral muscle & do many different types of exercises from all angles.

For me personally if I don't do my incline presses for more than 4 weeks, I will lose a lot of strength to my incline presses & I have strong shoulders. It's pretty simple, if you do presses at all angles, each press for each angle will get stronger.

Why is it that most ppl's flat bench press is much stronger than their incline bench press? The upper region of the pectoral muscle isn't as strong & it's a sensitive area connected to the shoulder.


----------



## Terok`Nor (Jun 27, 2004)

Lol....so Johnnny is harassing ironmagazineforums now. hahahahaahahahah. which forum is your retard advice going to be next?


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 27, 2004)

Terok`Nor



> Lol....so Johnnny is harassing ironmagazineforums now. hahahahaahahahah. which forum is your retard advice going to be next?


WTF are you talking about? Have you even read the thread in the beginning? I was asking for some simple advice as that is what we do here.

I've only been given a few intelligent answers that actually made sense by a few intelligent ppl & the rest was "mostly" criticism.

I think I'm the one who's being harassed in this thread.

& I ask a simple question on the last couple of pages that most ppl don't seem to have an answer for so they reply with some sort of criticism. That's what's happening.

There was a misunderstanding which I clearified right away. I've recieved a few pm's from ppl concerning this thread who understand where I'm coming from on this so there's nothing wrong with the question.


----------



## Terok`Nor (Jun 27, 2004)

thread's too long man....isn't it just debating about whether you can shape a muscle? can I isolate the right half of my left pec's 5th myofibril to grow please


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 27, 2004)

Terok`Nor





> thread's too long man....isn't it just debating about whether you can shape a muscle? can I isolate the right half of my left pec's 5th myofibril to grow please


2 things, you really should read threads before you reply to them so you know what's going on. I always try to do this.

2nd you like a few other ppl misunderstood what I was saying for some reason. But I've recieved several PM's from ppl who did understand what I was saying from the get go.

Yes you are right that I said my inner part of my upper chest wasn't filling out as much as it should be compared to the rest of my upper chest.

But I was asking if there was anything I could do that I haven't already tried that would help speed up the process of filling out the entire upper chest as a whole including that stubborn part of the upper chest right below the center of your neck.


----------



## tucker01 (Jun 28, 2004)

*JOHNNY THIS IS YOUR FUCKING ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION.  IT WAS ORIGINALLY POSTED ON PAGE 2, AND HAS BEEN REPEATEDLY STATED.  *

*READ IT AND LEARN ALREADY. *




			
				Rauschgift said:
			
		

> Johnny,
> There is more to lifting and strength than just moving some weight around. You had mentioned in a previous post to Premeir that if you stop doing incline presses you would get weak and lose size. If you stop doing a certain movement your nervous system and endocrine system become unfamiliar with the stimuli it takes to achieve that press. That is why when you start a new movement or something you have not done in a long time you will shake when performing it. Luckily though or bodys adapt very quickly and you will see strenght increase rapidly usually within in a week or two. Those strenth increase are largely due to your nervous system becoming more efficient at a given movement.


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 28, 2004)

IainDaniel 
Hey dude relax there's no need to freak out. I must have missed that reply along time ago with the the simultaneous replies of criticism coming in that's all.

I did know that already & it does make %100 sense. This is why it's so important to do a varitey of angled presses for the chest & not just flat bench or decline bench with some pec dec. I've also told some ppl who were just doning incline presses that they should be training their entire chest & to start they had a weak flat bench. So in this case I've just described it's the opposite.


----------



## Terok`Nor (Jun 28, 2004)

johnnny how many buddies do you have


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 28, 2004)

Terok`Nor 


> johnnny how many buddies do you have


What does it matter & what business is it of yours?


----------



## Var (Jun 28, 2004)

Terok`Nor said:
			
		

> johnnny how many buddies do you have


  I like this guy.  

This is my last post in this thread.  Just had to say it!


----------



## Johnnny (Jun 28, 2004)

Var



> I like this guy.


Why? He sounds like someone who's trying to criticise me & for what.

Hey Var how many buddies do you have?


----------



## PreMier (Jun 28, 2004)

camarosuper6 said:
			
		

> Damn man, whats up with that Prem?
> 
> I just posted an article from the AST website about muscle shaping I thought might be interesting. They are a well known and respected organization. I dont know either way whether its possible or not, and do not particularly care at this point in my bodybuilding life. I am simply trying to put on as much mass and strength as I can to build me a solid founadation.


I was simply pointing out that the article was retarded.  If someone wants to believe it fine, and I was saying you were up in the night if you did.  I should have been more specific


----------



## camarosuper6 (Oct 28, 2004)

I Summon This Threadd>>>>>>>>>> Back From The Dead!!!!


----------



## Saturday Fever (Oct 28, 2004)

hahahaha

upper inner chest. hahahahahaha

I'd like to see someone do nothing but upper inner chest work and come back in 2 months and report the obvious. That the whole fucking chest grew.

camaro rules.


----------



## BoneCrusher (Oct 28, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> hahahaha
> 
> upper inner chest. hahahahahaha
> 
> ...


So where is the upper inner chest in relation to the upper outer chest?


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Oct 28, 2004)




----------



## Johnnny (Oct 28, 2004)

camarosuper6



> I Summon This Threadd>>>>>>>>>> Back From The Dead!!!!



Loooooser!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## camarosuper6 (Oct 28, 2004)

> camaro rules.



Thank you, thank you... no autographs please.


----------



## Saturday Fever (Oct 28, 2004)

Finding the outer middle chest is very difficult and typically can only be done by doing a bench press with dumbbells and rotating your hands. Because as we all know, the angle of your wrists has a GREAT influence on your pecs.


----------



## Terok`Nor (Oct 28, 2004)




----------



## Du (Oct 28, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Loooooser!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## camarosuper6 (Oct 28, 2004)

TEREK... thats hilarious. How did you do that?


----------



## Terok`Nor (Oct 28, 2004)

I found a wall and sprayed it 
naw it's from letterjames.de


----------



## Johnnny (Oct 28, 2004)

camarosuper6



> Thank you, thank you... no autographs please.



Looooser!!!!!!!!!!!  



du510

I think you should be looking in the mirror when you post that pic.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Oct 28, 2004)

Johnnny... go to open chat and respond to my challenge


----------



## Johnnny (Oct 28, 2004)




----------



## camarosuper6 (Oct 28, 2004)

Dude. Im trying to be borderline friendly with you here. Dont blow your opportunity to put all of this under the bridge. It will be fun.


----------



## Du (Oct 28, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

>


Johnnny, how old are you?


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Oct 28, 2004)

This challenge has been made in fun - any insults from here on out are exclusively johnnys


----------



## Johnnny (Oct 28, 2004)

I am 27yrs old & I have more important things to worry about than petty insults & stupid threads.

I have my own apartment, I work, go to school, have my own social & personal life to deal with all while trying to spare time to read the Old Testament.


----------



## Du (Oct 28, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> I am 27yrs old & I have more important things to worry about than petty insults & stupid threads.
> 
> I have my own apartment, I work, go to school, have my own social & personal life to deal with all while trying to spare time to read the Old Testament.


It wouldnt take long to just snap a couple pics now and in 12 weeks. All together, maybe 5 minutes. You say you already train, so that wouldnt be an issue. 

But, I ask how old you are because of your apparent immaturity, in case you were curious.

BTW, the New Testament is pretty good too.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Oct 28, 2004)

Ok... thats great

I'm 24 with a job, my own apt and social and personal life to deal with as well. I like reading both Old and New Testament.

We still have time for a good ol fashioned bb challenge.


----------



## Johnnny (Oct 28, 2004)

du510



> It wouldnt take long to just snap a couple pics now and in 12 weeks. All together, maybe 5 minutes. You say you already train, so that wouldnt be an issue.



You know I will when I feel my condition is up to pare the way I see fit.

I'm not a porker or anything, but since my alteration of my thyroid treatment last august I have uncontrolably gained some unwanted body fat while still maintaining a 34 inch waist.



> But, I ask how old you are because of your apparent immaturity, in case you were curious.



My immaturity?

I think you have it backwards dude b/c Camaro is the one who's going out on a limb here in the immaturity department.

I'm doing what I have to do to avoid petty arguements & childish insults.


----------



## Johnnny (Oct 28, 2004)

camarosuper6



> Ok... thats great
> 
> I'm 24 with a job, my own apt and social and personal life to deal with as well. I like reading both Old and New Testament.
> 
> We still have time for a good ol fashioned bb challenge.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Oct 28, 2004)

No. Im going out on a limb to squash this nonsense. But have it your way. You continue to do what you want. I made an attempt.


----------



## Jeanie (Oct 28, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> I am 27yrs old & I have more important things to worry about than petty insults & stupid threads.
> 
> I have my own apartment, I work, go to school, have my own social & personal life to deal with all while trying to spare time to read the Old Testament.


One last try here.  Johnnny, I work full time, I am working on my masters degree, I have two kids who are very active, I am in a miserable relationship,  am struggling to pay mortgage on my house, I take time to lift and do cardio, volunteer at the kid's school and I read the Old and New Testament...time is not a variable in this.


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Oct 28, 2004)

you people need to stop crying and move on


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Oct 28, 2004)

What people are that?


----------



## Johnnny (Oct 28, 2004)




----------



## CowPimp (Oct 28, 2004)

You know Johnnny is stumped when he resorts to using purely emoticons instead of words.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Oct 28, 2004)

LOL @ cow


----------



## DOMS (Oct 28, 2004)

Jeanie said:
			
		

> One last try here.  Johnnny, I work full time, I am working on my masters degree, I have two kids who are very active, I am in a miserable relationship,  am struggling to pay mortgage on my house, I take time to lift and do cardio, volunteer at the kid's school and I read the Old and New Testament...time is not a variable in this.




You're a mother of two and you look like that?

Liar.   

I'm curious, did your drive (doing all that you do)  come after or before you got into bodybuilding?


----------



## Terok`Nor (Oct 28, 2004)

nm,nm,


----------



## Johnnny (Oct 28, 2004)

cowpimp



> You know Johnnny is stumped when he resorts to using purely emoticons instead of words.



Not stumped, just very bored of all this & not worth my time to reply except for this one time b/c I had to explain myself to you.


----------



## CowPimp (Oct 28, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Not stumped, just very bored of all this & not worth my time to reply except for this one time b/c I had to explain myself to you.



If you're bored, then stop responding to this thread and reading the responses.  It isn't that hard to "walk away."


----------



## Terok`Nor (Oct 29, 2004)

lets try this again...


----------



## Jeanie (Oct 29, 2004)

cfs3 said:
			
		

> You're a mother of two and you look like that?
> 
> Liar.
> 
> I'm curious, did your drive (doing all that you do) come after or before you got into bodybuilding?


I didn't have the guts to do it all until I really got into bodybuilding.  But I also think that the drive comes with age I love being this age.  I have never felt better about myself.


----------



## CowPimp (Oct 29, 2004)

Terok`Nor said:
			
		

> lets try this again...



Bahaha!


----------



## Johnnny (Oct 30, 2004)

Cowpimp



> If you're bored, then stop responding to this thread and reading the responses. It isn't that hard to "walk away."



I will walk away when others walk away.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Oct 30, 2004)




----------



## Johnnny (Oct 30, 2004)

mi3flex

Well our gyms use the regular 45lb bars


----------



## min0 lee (Oct 30, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> mi3flex
> 
> Well our gyms use the regular 45lb bars


Don't listen to that guy Johnnny, he is just trying to sell stuff here.

ooh oooh let me do this...... .....ahh that felt good.


----------



## mi3flex (Oct 31, 2004)

Hey just for the record, nobody's trying to sell you anything.  Whether you buy their stuff or not won't make me one penny richer.  The forum's about telling people your experiences and what works for them.  Some people are looking for new products that work and especially if their hurtin.  Their stuff is good for rehab and injury prevention.  I didn't know giving out a website was SPAMMING!!  Alot of people on this forum are referring websites.  Are they spamming too?

Folks can keep on using what they use.  Me or nobody else is going to change that.  So if ya thought I was spamming well..I'm sorry, I'm not.  

Keep up your workouts and routines all!


----------



## Johnnny (Oct 31, 2004)

How is me saying what sized bars my gym uses trying to sell anything?

I did not name the gym, or a price for the bar.

But since you were probably joking


----------



## min0 lee (Oct 31, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> How is me saying what sized bars my gym uses trying to sell anything?
> 
> I did not name the gym, or a price for the bar.
> 
> But since you were probably joking


What I meant was for you to Ignore *mi3flex*, it *seems* like he is *hawking* his products here if I am not mistaken.


----------



## Johnnny (Oct 31, 2004)

minOlee



> What I meant was for you to Ignore mi3flex, it seems like he is hawking his products here if I am not mistaken.



Okay thanks for the tip, but I don't buy any gym equipment or even many supplements at all.


----------



## min0 lee (Oct 31, 2004)

mi3flex said:
			
		

> Hey just for the record, nobody's trying to sell you anything. Whether you buy their stuff or not won't make me one penny richer. The forum's about telling people your experiences and what works for them. Some people are looking for new products that work and especially if their hurtin. Their stuff is good for rehab and injury prevention. I didn't know giving out a website was SPAMMING!! Alot of people on this forum are referring websites. Are they spamming too?
> 
> Folks can keep on using what they use. Me or nobody else is going to change that. So if ya thought I was spamming well..I'm sorry, I'm not.
> 
> Keep up your workouts and routines all!


OK, then excuse my accusations, but in the meantime I will keep my 1 eye on you. If you haven't heard *I See.....*all.


----------

