# Do you belive in God?



## Uzi9 (Apr 17, 2005)

Science would say no but science knows nothing when it comes to the universe and the grand sheme of things i always think these questions put perspective on things.

What started the universe?
What was before the start of the universe? and when did the universe start?

There had to be a point when the things happen i.e. big bang or whatever theory, but before that happened what was there? it must of been there for infinite time in which case how can the big bang happen? if there is no start point to something there can be no future dates.

If the ball of mass was there for 100000000 years then exploded (big bang)it still wouldnt make sence because 100000000 years from when? what point did day 1 start? to say 100000000 years.

If the universe if infinite then how can we be in point A (earth) when there Is no end or begining how can you pick a part of infinite to be in? 

I dont belive things are just as worked out and simple as every one thinks, just living in your pocket of a life which you have worked out dosent mean your ignorance of what isnt explained and which can never be explained by humans should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I am not sure what I belive but I doubt that all that is in the universe wasn`t created all by itself somehow.


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## myCATpowerlifts (Apr 17, 2005)

I do.
Science cannot be applied to religion.
The scientific theory is meant for solving science...nothing else.

And there are many many great and well-known scientists who believe in God.


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## LW83 (Apr 17, 2005)

Only when I have to.


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## overthepond (Apr 17, 2005)

God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.


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## Arnold (Apr 17, 2005)

I like to believe there is a god, but I do not believe or follow any religeons.


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## min0 lee (Apr 17, 2005)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> I like to believe there is a god, but I do not believe or follow any religeons.


Same here.


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## shiznit2169 (Apr 17, 2005)

> I like to believe there is a god, but I do not believe or follow any religeons.



Same here

Also when you die, people often say your "spirit" will rise to heaven while others think nothing happens, you're just dead like when before you were born. What do you all believe?


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## buff_tat2d_chic (Apr 17, 2005)

no


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## BritChick (Apr 17, 2005)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> I like to believe there is a god, but I do not believe or follow any religeons.



Likewise, I'd 'like' to believe... I am not sure that I do though, I guess I'm too much of a skeptic to be convinced.


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## bio-chem (Apr 17, 2005)

as i study chemistry more, the more and more i believe there has to be a God. things are to perfect for this to happen because of some random elements coming together by chance in exactly the right secuence for life to happen.

i also believe in a church that believes the spirit was not created at the time of physical birth. meaning we existed as spirits before we were born into mortality here on this earth.


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## Uzi9 (Apr 17, 2005)

BritChick said:
			
		

> Likewise, I'd 'like' to believe... I am not sure that I do though, I guess I'm too much of a skeptic to be convinced.


What would the the skeptic in you say about the questions i posed in my first post? when you look into space do you think what you know is all there is?


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## Vieope (Apr 17, 2005)

_How can I not believe in myself? _


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## min0 lee (Apr 17, 2005)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _How can I not believe in myself? _


Oh holy one...what is the meaning of life....


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## Maynard Keenan (Apr 17, 2005)

I see theres more proof of satan in this world then god.  Although I do believe there is a god or creator of this world.  Or maybe god and satan are the same.  This world could just be for amusement for god.  I believe this world is getting more evil every day.


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## BritChick (Apr 17, 2005)

Uzi9 said:
			
		

> What would the the skeptic in you say about the questions i posed in my first post? when you look into space do you think what you know is all there is?



No, I definately don't think all I know is all there is not sure where you got that theory... hell I don't know much about anything!   
Just because I don't know the answers to the questions I'm not ready to commit to everything being a creation of God.
As I said I would 'like' to believe... I'm just not certain that I do and I don't think I ever will be.


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## min0 lee (Apr 17, 2005)

Who's to say that any religion is the right one.


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## Arnold (Apr 17, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> Who's to say that any religion is the right one.


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## Maynard Keenan (Apr 17, 2005)




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## overthepond (Apr 17, 2005)

let's say good=god and evil=devil. If that is the case I find it interesting that, really, god cannot exist without the devlin and conversly, the devil cannot exist without god. 

To quote the South Park Movie: "Without evil there can be no good so it must be good to evil sometimes!" - Sung by Satan


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## King Silverback (Apr 17, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> Who's to say that any religion is the right one.


1st. I DO believe in GOD!!!
2nd. I don't necessarily believe any 1 religion is right and the rest is wrong. All of them have their valid points while they also have points that I don't agree with 100 %. I deep down believe that your religion is in your heart, and GOD sees whats in the heart. Not what men see on the outside as a professed practitioner of any religion. 

Does that make sense?


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## Little Wing (Apr 17, 2005)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _How can I not believe in myself? _


 ah ha!  

 there has to be something more than science. bodies by science, emotion and thought by something infinitely more mysterious.


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## min0 lee (Apr 17, 2005)

Archangel said:
			
		

> 1st. I DO believe in GOD!!!
> 2nd. I don't necessarily believe any 1 religion is right and the rest is wrong. All of them have their valid points while they also have points that I don't agree with 100 %. I deep down believe that your religion is in your heart, and GOD sees whats in the heart. Not what men see on the outside as a professed practitioner of any religion.
> 
> Does that make sense?


Yes, it does. Unfortunately the many people that I have met who are religious tend to do the opposite of what they are taught.
It's all about the money.


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## Vieope (Apr 17, 2005)

Archangel said:
			
		

> Does that make sense?


_Religion? No. _


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## min0 lee (Apr 17, 2005)

Some things in religion just doesn't make sense at all.


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## Vieope (Apr 17, 2005)

_
 "Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather."  

Bill Hicks _


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## Little Wing (Apr 17, 2005)

omg. i read the initial post like three times n kept thinking it belonged in the drugs thread. haha.


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## shiznit2169 (Apr 17, 2005)

religion is absolutely crazy over in the middle east

terrorists are a bunch of washups


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## min0 lee (Apr 17, 2005)

It makes me sick what goes on there.


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## min0 lee (Apr 17, 2005)

And all because of religion.


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## busyLivin (Apr 17, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> And all because of religion.



nope...it's because of fanatical psychos influencing more fanatical psychos. Religion is just the tool used.


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## min0 lee (Apr 17, 2005)

Thank you, religion is used as a tool. Thats my point...people screw everything up.
If that's the purpose of religion I'll keep on believeing in god but not the people running organized religion.


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## busyLivin (Apr 17, 2005)

min0 lee said:
			
		

> Thank you, religion is used as a tool. Thats my point...people screw everything up.
> If that's the purpose of religion I'll keep on believeing in god but not the people running organized religion.




I agree.  I don't think that's the *intended* purpose of it, but it is always used that way.  I go to church for my own reasons, not because a priest told me to. Religions are still organizations formed by fallible men. I take what I can from the Catholic Church & form my own relationship with God.


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## min0 lee (Apr 17, 2005)

Well said.

I do send my kids to the Catholic Church, I want them to learn the religion. When they get older they can choose to do whatever they please. 
As for me I just don't believe in people.


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## nsimmons (Apr 17, 2005)

I cant say i believe in any god in the traditional sense of an omnipotent being. The more science and philosophy i study the more I'm drawn away from the classic views. First off, define God, define reality, define existence. You could define God as simply everything that ever was, is, or could be. You could define god as our creator. In that case we are becoming gods in genetic research.

And to say there must be a god because we cant explain something is just ignorant. Ask a child to explain how a airplane flies. They cant, so god must be doing it. From that perspective we are our own gods.

I don't think there is any fact or phenomenon that cant be explained in a logical rational manner. We may not have the ability to reason it due to inferior mental capacity, but that doesn't mean somewhere something cant understand it. Ask a dog why its warm in the house and explain basic electrical and thermodynamic theory, it cant. It never will be able to, yet its obvious to humans how the central heating in the home keeps the dog warm. As for as the dog is concerned god did it. Its will always be beyond its capacity. 

Maybe theres aliens 1/2  billion years more advanced than us that have a total grasp of space and time, maybe they engineered us, maybe they're "god".

Its sound mathematical theory that given enough energy one could create a mini universe in a laboratory, and use that creation as an energy source. (Im getting very simplistic here). So how do we know our universe is not just the engine in some pizza boys delivery car. Is he our god? Or is it his mechanic.

If you really want to explore these concepts in detail, you have to place huge importance on linguistics and strict definitions. I think its safe to define god as the "unknown" and leave it at that. Its foolish and futile to try and understand god. Given this definition it would be impossible.

As such i belive in god as defined above.


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## busyLivin (Apr 17, 2005)

Interesting... i find the opposite.. the more science I learn, the more I believe in God.   The element of chance is far too great, in my opinion.  

Aliens creating us only moves the creation problem elsewhere.  I've always seen this proposal as simply an admission of the impossiblity of our existence by chance.


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## nsimmons (Apr 17, 2005)

I fully agree with the alien theory as passing the buck, and having studied some microbiology I can see the aspect of "design" in it, particularly the bacterial flagellin. Christ its an outboard motor, with a prop, driveshaft, stator, etc. But that doesnt convince me that some christian god made it.

Remember the world is nothing but a flat plate on the back of a giant tortoise. Whats that tortoise standing on? To quote someone much smarter than me "Its turtles all the way down."

I truely feel that is the best explaination we'll ever come to. At least at our present evolutionary state.


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## joesmooth20 (Apr 17, 2005)

me and my daughter just got baptized. Native American rez where i'm from is real big
on the Episcopal religion. I kinda just did it so they would leave me alone about it.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 17, 2005)

I believe in a God when something bad happens, so that I have something to blame it on.  When something goes right it is typically a product of my skill and intuition.

Actually, I am still searching for answers, but not in the lovely confines of a chrch or anything like that.  I figure I will stumble into it at a bar prolly.


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## busyLivin (Apr 17, 2005)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> I believe in a God when something bad happens, so that I have something to blame it on.  When something goes right it is typically a product of my skill and intuition.


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## crazy_enough (Apr 18, 2005)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> I believe in a God when something bad happens, so that I have something to blame it on. When something goes right it is typically a product of my skill and intuition.
> 
> Actually, I am still searching for answers, but not in the lovely confines of a chrch or anything like that. I figure I will stumble into it at a bar prolly.


    


And as far as Im concerned, no, I do not beleive in any shape or form of god or religion.


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## Witmaster (Apr 18, 2005)

*I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.*

*And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.*

*I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.*
*~Martin Luther, 1530AD*


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## rantheman (Apr 18, 2005)

Ditto to Witmaster


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## Vieope (Apr 18, 2005)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> *I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.*
> 
> *And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.*
> 
> ...



_Haha.. good one.  _


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## overthepond (Apr 18, 2005)

Witmaster said:
			
		

> who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary...



Does that make Mary some form of Necrophiliac? 

Having just read Gazer's interesting facts I have decided that there must be a God. A duck's quack does not echo, no one knows why.....that is God....just to fuck with us.

That is some cool shit.


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## Decker (Apr 18, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> as i study chemistry more, the more and more i believe there has to be a God. things are to perfect for this to happen because of some random elements coming together by chance in exactly the right secuence for life to happen.


Physicist Paul Davies, author of The Mind of God, arrives at a similar conclusion...that there is something fishy about the composition of the universe which lends itself to some sort of supernatural tampering.  Due to the limits of rational thought though, suspicion is as good as it gets.

As for dogmatic assertions re the absolute authority of any religious doctrine, well, that seems to do injustice to human potential and responsibility.  Personally, I find that kind of mythology to be a rationalization of true faith (always a mystery).  

Rationalizing faith makes any religion simply a set of doctrines which anyone can easily believe in, but there's no meat on that bone. This can lead to extremists who believe only they know the true word of God as reflected in their religion's doctrine.


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## LW83 (Apr 18, 2005)

overthepond said:
			
		

> Having just read Gazer's interesting facts I have decided that there must be a God. A duck's quack does not echo, no one knows why.....that is God....just to fuck with us.
> 
> That is some cool shit.



There is no god


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## Purdue Power (Apr 18, 2005)

As to the point on the first page about there having to be a beginning to time...not necessarily.  Time can be infinite, having no beginning or ending.  It is hard for us to conceptualize this, because we only have sensate knowledge of finite things.  The universe, too, can be infinite.  Again, it is hard to conceptualize, because we have no way of sensing something infinite.  This can also be applied to the idea of God.  It is hard for people to conceptualize "God" as being an infinite being, because we only have experience and knowledge of outselves as being finite.

Science and religion don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive.  Saint Thomas Aquinas's writing talk about how God may have started all processes, even the Big Bang.  He says that everything was put in motion by something else in motion...thus saying that things that science says are true to the formation of planets, stars and such, but traced far enough back, God started it all.  He basically says that God doesn't have a direct hand in everything, but he was the orignator of all processes.

I personally am an athiest, but I respect the fact that people have a concept of God and have something to hold onto.  To me, it is about living our lives the best that we can.  I don't believe in God, I believe in people and our capacity to be together and live our lives for each other.


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## buff_tat2d_chic (Apr 18, 2005)

LW83 said:
			
		

> There is no god


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## overthepond (Apr 18, 2005)

damn...there goes my theory.


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## Decker (Apr 18, 2005)

LW83 said:
			
		

> There is no god


"You're not a man! You're a Bishop! For God's sake!"


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## John H. (Apr 18, 2005)

Uzi9 said:
			
		

> Science would say no but science knows nothing when it comes to the universe and the grand sheme of things i always think these questions put perspective on things.
> 
> What started the universe?
> What was before the start of the universe? and when did the universe start?
> ...



Hi Uzi9,

There is probably a higher power (Whoever you would perceive Him to be or call Him). Certainly something made "all this". As for "all loving, all knowing, all powerful, etc." - I highly doubt it because of all the misery that seems to pervade the world and always has at least according to recorded history - not much has really changed when taking about the basics and how each person treats others - there has not been any progress...

I think evil pervails in the world - look at religion. Before you slam me look at its history and see for yourself honestly and you will know what I am talking about. 

If I had it in my power there are three things I would eliminate immediately from the face of the earth:

1) Child abuse - in any form by any one for any reason.

2) Religion - look at all of them closely, they are nothing more than gloried politics.

3) Politics. For obvious reasons.

Without these three this world would be so much better off. Truthfully.

Take Care, John H.


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## busyLivin (Apr 18, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Hi Uzi9,
> 
> There is probably a higher power (Whoever you would perceive Him to be or call Him). Certainly something made "all this". As for "all loving, all knowing, all powerful, etc." - I highly doubt it because of all the misery that seems to pervade the world and always has at least according to recorded history - not much has really changed when taking about the basics and how each person treats others - there has not been any progress...
> 
> ...



I see what you're saying, but you are excluding all of the GOOD that is in the world.  We always seem to focus on the bad, but life can be (and is meant to be) beautiful.. which to points to a loving creator.

The three examples you gave, we created.


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## bio-chem (Apr 18, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Hi Uzi9,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


like dr kinsey?


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## John H. (Apr 18, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> like dr kinsey?



Bio boy,

Dr. Kinsey abused no one - ever.

But "religious" people DO.

John H.


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## bio-chem (Apr 18, 2005)

maybe your definition of abuse is different then mine, i went out and read his book, and from what i read it looks like he condoned practices that are by standards accepted in todays courts abuse. so swallow that pill


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## John H. (Apr 18, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> maybe your definition of abuse is different then mine, i went out and read his book, and from what i read it looks like he condoned practices that are by standards accepted in todays courts abuse. so swallow that pill



Bio boy,

YOU "read" the WHOLE BOOK? Completely. Did you UNDERSTAND what it stated accurately?

Did you did you do your own research into the research of Dr. Kinsey and his Associates and the work they are responsible for? Did you look at all aspect of it? With an open mind? Objectively?

"Today's courts"?!!! Hell if you remember it was the courts that let the catholic church off as an institution which perpetuated the abuse capabilities headed by a pope some would like to call a saint already that was involved in child abuse. This is nothing new and has been going on probably for centuries. 

A friend of mind, his mother, who is about 80 years old and from Austria stated to me one time a few years ago when the abuse scandals first broke out - "I do not know why people here in this country are getting so upset" - and I asked her what she meant - she said in the old country (Europe) Sex with youg people , male and female, goes on all the time in the catholic church and always has. It is considered by the majority of the people as "their duty to the church". Now not much surprises me but that DID. And still does. Ever wonder why we never hear much about abuse EXCEPT in this country (USA). Anyone that thinks abuse is a "new thing" doesn't know much or has had their heads buried somewhere...

And most people who abuse children are "religious" types. Probably because of taught repression by "religion".

John H.


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## busyLivin (Apr 18, 2005)




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## busyLivin (Apr 18, 2005)

you really do hammer the church, John H.  Obviously some of it's members are disturbed, but I would also call a person disturbed if they ask other males if they "hide their boners" as you frequently do.


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## John H. (Apr 18, 2005)

busyLivin said:
			
		

> you really do hammer the church, John H.  Obviously some of it's members are disturbed, but I would also call a person disturbed if they ask other males if they "hide their boners" as you frequently do.



Hi Busy,

ME? "Hammer the church"? I think the church does that to itself. I am merely stating what I have noticed or heard or learned of. And if I were to "head" the church I certainly would NEVER make "rules" or allow them to continue that would cause an ordinary human being to be deprived of what is basic in any human being especially if it were found to contribute to the abuse of others. 

As for hard-ons, they ARE natural and should naturally show if that is what is "going on at the time" - there is no real reason to "hide them", Nature INTENDS them to BE. That is not being "disturbed" but stating facts as they are. "Hiding them" is what is UNnatural. And "disturbed".

Take Care, John H.


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## bio-chem (Apr 18, 2005)

so are you defending child abuse then, by not calling it child abuse. what was the point of your story, that abuse is relative? thats fine if thats your arguement, i still say that by the accepted standards in american culture what dr kinsey supported is considered child abuse in todays america.   

i mean it all comes down to definitions and if your saying your definition of abuse allows for what dr kinsey did, then you are also arguing what the unfortunate children had to suffer through at the hands of a few priests (not the majority) is also not considered child abuse.


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## crazy_enough (Apr 18, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Bio boy,
> 
> Dr. Kinsey abused no one - ever.
> 
> ...


Hum, John, I must agree with bio on this one, damn, Kinsey did commit abuse and/or protect others who performed such acts.

I think its way too easy to claim that knowledge/science were the only reasons behind this "research", if it can be called that! Im still searching for the purpose or reasoning involved in knowing how many times a 1 yr old child can orgasm!


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## gococksDJS (Apr 18, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Bio boy,
> 
> Dr. Kinsey abused no one - ever.
> 
> ...


 Shit John H, please explain to us how his studies contribute to anything? What does touching an 11 month old child benefit? How can you justify a man who claims that an infant can have a certain amount of orgasms in a certain amount of time? Would you submit your own children to his studies, and let him touch them for research purposes? I mean it's all in the name of science. Your one sick fuck.


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## bio-chem (Apr 18, 2005)

surely crazy enough meets your requirements for open-mindedness.  i dont think she qualifies as a close-minded, religious zealout by any stretch of the imagination.

by the way crazy im impressed with the photos youve posted. it shows your hard work has paid off


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## devildog88 (Apr 18, 2005)

if I had it in my power there are three things I would eliminate immediately from the face of the earth:

1) Child abuse - in any form by any one for any reason.

2) Religion - look at all of them closely, they are nothing more than gloried politics.

3) Politics. For obvious reasons.

Without these three this world would be so much better off. Truthfully.

Take Care, John H.[/QUOTE] 
John Sounds like you were the son of a senator who Made you go to church and sexually abused you???????????


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## mr_oo3 (Apr 19, 2005)

Just like to say Hi, i'm 17, lifitng for 2 years.

Science, religion and philosophy will never agree, as all are by their nature incomplete.

Science due to both the course of time, and Hesinburgs uncertatnity principle, relgion due to its foundation on 'faith', which at times faith is the abandoment of logic, and philosophy due to the limits of human reason.

However, all three do seem to make room for each other, espcially science and religion.

One theory some athesists always say is the infamous Chaos Theory, the result of which is no free will.  This theory has stood in the path of any religion that proclaims free will.

Now with the fruition of results of recent experiments, espcially the quatum physics spin on Youngs Experiment, science again allows room for a creator.


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## John H. (Apr 19, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> so are you defending child abuse then, by not calling it child abuse. what was the point of your story, that abuse is relative? thats fine if thats your arguement, i still say that by the accepted standards in american culture what dr kinsey supported is considered child abuse in todays america.
> 
> i mean it all comes down to definitions and if your saying your definition of abuse allows for what dr kinsey did, then you are also arguing what the unfortunate children had to suffer through at the hands of a few priests (not the majority) is also not considered child abuse.




Bio boy,

YOUR "point" is to try to FIND a way to discredit Dr. Kinsey and the work he and his Associates did. And you are not the first to try that. 

Specifically, what college or university do you attend - the name of it and exactly where is it located? Is it accredited?

Re-read what I said, carefully and completely and accurately. If you can not or do not know how have one of your professors show you how. Are you learning disabled? 

Dr. Kinsey and his Associates and the work they have done has stood the test of time over and over under extreme scrutiny. And for more than 50 years. They abused no one ever. Your mentioning you feel they did is your opinion and that of your "religion" and how you wish to "believe" and if you say it over and over and over again like you like to do you will talk yourself into reassuring your "beliefs" and perpetuating your "religion" however it is  not based on the facts. Like I have told you many times before his work was under extreme scrutiny by people in law enforcement, teachers, social workers, psychiatrists, psychologists, Medical Doctors, etc. - people with far better credentials than yourself. 

If you are "so sure" Dr. Kinsey and his Associates abused anyone take your complaint to law enforcement  and have it investigated. And brought to court. You are not the first person to ask this and it has been investigated. And Dr. Kinsey and his Associates have been totally cleared of ANY wrongdoing. 

What do you "call" your "religion"?

John H.


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## John H. (Apr 19, 2005)

crazy_enough said:
			
		

> Hum, John, I must agree with bio on this one, damn, Kinsey did commit abuse and/or protect others who performed such acts.
> 
> I think its way too easy to claim that knowledge/science were the only reasons behind this "research", if it can be called that! Im still searching for the purpose or reasoning involved in knowing how many times a 1 yr old child can orgasm!




 Crazy,

PROVE what you have just said. Others have questioned him and his work and that of his Associates and they all have been completely cleared of any wrongdoing. 

If you are so "sure" he and his Associates did something wrong have it investigated. Follow through. You are not the first to question him and his work. Present your facts and accusations in a legal forum and have them proved or disproved. Stand by your personal attacks and take the consquences of your actions. Or do you always try to defame a person and their character and work of-hand without facts to back up your statements that can be proved in a court of law? He abused no one. 

John H.


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## John H. (Apr 19, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> Shit John H, please explain to us how his studies contribute to anything? What does touching an 11 month old child benefit? How can you justify a man who claims that an infant can have a certain amount of orgasms in a certain amount of time? Would you submit your own children to his studies, and let him touch them for research purposes? I mean it's all in the name of science. Your one sick fuck.




Gococks,

You have never read and comprehended his work. You know nothing of his research and the reasons behind it. 

READ CAREFULLY his work and research the reasons behind it completely, accurately and honestly. Anything you question or do not understand ask The Institute for Research in Sex, Gender and Reproduction at Indiana Unversity at Bloomington, Indiana, at www.indiana.edu/~kinsey

Let Dr. Kinsey and those that have followed his work explain it all to you so you will understand it from the source. And the reason(s) why. And how. 

And if you have any accusations to level, level them directly to the source and take it to law enforcement. And the courts. And be prepared to present your facts and be able to back them up with facts. And remember you will also be under extreme scrutiny and that when you or anyone else trys to defame a person and their character you have to answer in a court of law for those words and suffer any consequences.

You say you are so "sure", then back up what you are saying with proof in a court of law.

John H.


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## John H. (Apr 19, 2005)

devildog88 said:
			
		

> if I had it in my power there are three things I would eliminate immediately from the face of the earth:
> 
> 1) Child abuse - in any form by any one for any reason.
> 
> ...


John Sounds like you were the son of a senator who Made you go to church and sexually abused you???????????[/QUOTE]

Hi Devil,

No, not at all - not even close. 

I have seen the results of each in my own lifetime which is why I feel there is no real need or even purpose for any of those I mentioned.

Personally, no, not me. Not at all. I have never been abused nor have I abused anyone ever! Nor would I.

Take Care, John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 19, 2005)

To clarify, this thread is about whether someone believes in God. I have said I believe in a Supreme Being (call Him what you will). I have no use for "religion" which is man-made and because of their past and present practices which have not changed over time and "religion" to me is nothing more than "glorified politics".

I say the above to put this back on the subject of the thread.

Take Care, John H.


----------



## gococksDJS (Apr 19, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> You say you are so "sure", then back up what you are saying with proof in a court of law.
> 
> John H.


 John H, what makes you so "sure" that he didn't molest children? Where's your proof in the court of law? What makes you so sure that he didn't touch little children because he was a sick fuck, and covered it up by saying he was doing a study? Is it because he is for the same thing you are for? I don't give a shit what someone says their motives are, touching children and finding out how many orgasms they can have is WRONG, no matter how "open minded, and fully" you want me to look at it. What if Michael Jackson was performing a study? The fact of the matter is that Michael Jackson and many Catholic Priests have done the same thing as your idol Dr. Kinsey, but they didn't claim it was for research. It sounds to me like your looking for approval for a problem of your own, and Dr. Kinsey and his sick "research" gives you that approval, and the ability to look in the mirror and tell yourself that it's not wrong to touch children. Jeffrey Dahmer performed experiments on his adolescent victims. He would drill a hole in their head and pour acid in, in an attempt to make them into zombies, he would then rape their corpses and dismember their bodies. Is this not a study? So is he wrong in your eyes? Look at his research "FULLY AND OPEN MINDED" John H.


----------



## crazy_enough (Apr 19, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Crazy,
> 
> PROVE what you have just said. Others have questioned him and his work and that of his Associates and they all have been completely cleared of any wrongdoing.
> 
> ...


I am not making personal attacks John(while I admit u seem to be taking this very personaly), we are discussing beleifs, and it is my beleif that this person, his actions, motives and those of his associates were out of place and plain disgusting!
I do not beleive that those "studies" were necessary and feel that the "discoveries" or "advancements" made could have been attained in a different manner!
I always stand by what I think or say and take responsibility for my words and actions! Im not sure where that comment was coming from!? 

Sincerely, I think that you are the one who should stand by his words and assume the conscequences...U are telling everyone to take these people to court if they aint happy with their practices and so on...Why the heck arent u taking every single church, reverend, priest etc to court then?? Ure always bitching and moaning about them! "Or do you always try to defame a person and their character and work of-hand without facts to back up your statements that can be proved in a court of law?" U see what Im getting at with this??


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 19, 2005)

crazy enough's arguement is sound john.  the name of my school? is it accredited? am i learning disabled?  what do i call my religion? from these questions it shows your getting all worked up john.  the fact is your now just reaching for any baseless atttacks in an effort not to discuss the real issues.  or answer the tough questions posed to you.

you were the one to bring up kinsey on this thread so it is hard to act like we're all bringing this off subject. come out of your little world john boy and join the rest of us

and to show you ill answer any question you pose (unlike you will do for others)
i am a bio-chemistry major at Brigham Young University located in Provo, Ut its accredited in case you are wondering, and well respected thoughout industry.  feel free to look up its rankings. as to my religion, i am a christian. though the question your asking i think you want to know is the name of the church i belong to.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.  and as to any learning disabilities grow up john this isnt elementary school anymore.


----------



## buff_tat2d_chic (Apr 19, 2005)

Maybe John H is really Dr. Kinsey... incognito.


----------



## John H. (Apr 19, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> John H, what makes you so "sure" that he didn't molest children? Where's your proof in the court of law? What makes you so sure that he didn't touch little children because he was a sick fuck, and covered it up by saying he was doing a study? Is it because he is for the same thing you are for? I don't give a shit what someone says their motives are, touching children and finding out how many orgasms they can have is WRONG, no matter how "open minded, and fully" you want me to look at it. What if Michael Jackson was performing a study? The fact of the matter is that Michael Jackson and many Catholic Priests have done the same thing as your idol Dr. Kinsey, but they didn't claim it was for research. It sounds to me like your looking for approval for a problem of your own, and Dr. Kinsey and his sick "research" gives you that approval, and the ability to look in the mirror and tell yourself that it's not wrong to touch children. Jeffrey Dahmer performed experiments on his adolescent victims. He would drill a hole in their head and pour acid in, in an attempt to make them into zombies, he would then rape their corpses and dismember their bodies. Is this not a study? So is he wrong in your eyes? Look at his research "FULLY AND OPEN MINDED" John H.



Gococks,

I did not bring up the subject of Dr. Kinsey on this thread. The subject of this thread was whether you believe in God or not.

Dr. Kinsey and his Associates in research were never found guilty of having done anything inappropriate with anyone nor did they abuse anyone. What you are insinuating  has been fully discussed before over the last 50 years and by the highest of authority. The books that were a result of their research are directed to law enforcement, medical professionals, teachers, sociologists, scientists, psychologists, psychiatrists, etc. The books ended up being on the Best Seller list - the first time that had ever happened for books of this type and were very popular and well received in general - except not by the "religious" types. Anyone that had any questions about their methodology have already asked very direct questions to that end. Over the last 50 years or so and the work has stood the test of time and extreme scrutiny. 

If you feel something wrong has been done take it to the prosecutors of jurisdiction and let them take care of your concerns. Based on my research and learning about Dr. Kinsey and the Institute nothing wrong was done. And I looked very closely. Go to the website for the Institute for Research in Sex, Gender and Reproduction at www.indiana.edu/~kinsey and ask them directly and see what information is available on the subject. 

Other than being 
 Human Males, Dr. Kinsey, Jeffrey Dahlmer and Michael Jackson have NOTHING in common with each other.  Not even close. 

John H.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 19, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Gococks,
> 
> 
> Other than being
> ...


well that and they all touched children in a sexual way.


----------



## John H. (Apr 19, 2005)

crazy_enough said:
			
		

> I am not making personal attacks John(while I admit u seem to be taking this very personaly), we are discussing beleifs, and it is my beleif that this person, his actions, motives and those of his associates were out of place and plain disgusting!
> I do not beleive that those "studies" were necessary and feel that the "discoveries" or "advancements" made could have been attained in a different manner!
> I always stand by what I think or say and take responsibility for my words and actions! Im not sure where that comment was coming from!?
> 
> Sincerely, I think that you are the one who should stand by his words and assume the conscequences...U are telling everyone to take these people to court if they aint happy with their practices and so on...Why the heck arent u taking every single church, reverend, priest etc to court then?? Ure always bitching and moaning about them! "Or do you always try to defame a person and their character and work of-hand without facts to back up your statements that can be proved in a court of law?" U see what Im getting at with this??



Crazy,

Are your "beliefs" based on the FACTS surrounding the research and those involved? Accurate, honest facts.

And how is it that the same questions have been brought up even before the research was published and has been checked out by the authorities and found groundless. The "religious right" has had as their aggenda to try to discredit Dr. Kinsey and his Associates' work since they first heard about it and especially when the research was published because his work debunks what the "religious right" has tried to get others to believe about Human Sexuality.  Read the books for yourself and do your own research into the writing of these Books. 

As to the abuses of pastors, priests, etc. that has in some cases been brought to court and there have been those that were prosecuted but there has also been cover-up by the Catholic Church. In Cleveland, Ohio, it was recently revealed by the Churchs' own  secular "investigative team" that all the records which had information about errant priests for example - and priests were not the only offenders - has disappeared and no one knows where it all went. 

John H.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 19, 2005)

john the accusations were not found to be groundless.  the original statiticians who checked dr kinseys work disagreed with his methods and felt the way he handled his samples led to faulty conclusions. dr kinsey however disagreed and published his book anyways.  so your information is not correct. regardless of ones feelings on whether what he did was ethical or not(something only you believe on this forum) scientifically much of what dr kinsey did is and was incorrect. scientifically speaking only.


----------



## John H. (Apr 19, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> crazy enough's arguement is sound john.  the name of my school? is it accredited? am i learning disabled?  what do i call my religion? from these questions it shows your getting all worked up john.  the fact is your now just reaching for any baseless atttacks in an effort not to discuss the real issues.  or answer the tough questions posed to you.
> 
> you were the one to bring up kinsey on this thread so it is hard to act like we're all bringing this off subject. come out of your little world john boy and join the rest of us
> 
> ...



Bio boy,

It seems to me if I remember correctly in the past you said you were going to a "university" in the "south". On one occasion you told me when I used the word "college" you got upset and said "no, university" - do you remember that? Are you a republican?

Now you say you are a Mormon. And going to college in Utah. Which is it - the "south" or "Utah" and a "college" or "university"? Mormons believed in multiple wives. And had  "visions". Some still do and some still have them so they say. And multiple wives. And like Gococks has also said and you just did, I never brought up Dr. Kinsey on this thread - you two did. I was answering the topic of this thread which is whether you believe in God. As a Mormon you hate people that are Homosexual and BiSexual. Your religion teaches that bigotry and hatred. God never said anything like that and neither did Christ.

John H.


----------



## chuckufarley (Apr 19, 2005)

*I also believe in the woman who lived in a shoe. 
And I am close personal friends with the 3 Blind Mice, man they got it rough.  *​


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 19, 2005)

wrong john. find the post where i said i went to a university in the south. i didnt. i also never got upset over the difference between a college and a university. you have me confused with someonte else. 

while i agree philisophically with rebublican grass roots ideals, i consider myself an independent and vote based on the candidates presented to me.  i am originally from washington state (spent my first 18 years there) lived 2 years in the philippines and now have lived in ut going to college for the rest.

as a mormon dont tell me what i believe because like a fool you assume. mormons dont hate homosexuals. ask crazy enough if she thinks i hate her.   mormons do not still practice polygamy, and we still believe in continued revelation from God in present time.  if you want to have a discussion on mormonism feel free to start a thread and id be happy to discuss it. untill then dont assume, it doesnt help your case at all


----------



## John H. (Apr 19, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> john the accusations were not found to be groundless.  the original statiticians who checked dr kinseys work disagreed with his methods and felt the way he handled his samples led to faulty conclusions. dr kinsey however disagreed and published his book anyways.  so your information is not correct. regardless of ones feelings on whether what he did was ethical or not(something only you believe on this forum) scientifically much of what dr kinsey did is and was incorrect. scientifically speaking only.




Bio boy,

Have YOU READ - READ ENTIRELY -  the two books yourself in their entirety? Each is about 800 pages in length. The first was published in 1948 and the second 1953. And reprinted in 1998 by Indiana University Press. 

There was disagreement over the USE OF the statistics and where those statistics came from. It was found that the statistics utilized in the reports were based on facts and they were known to be correct in the first place and they were not in error. Also statisticians and Dr. Kinsey did talk to each other over the methodology utilized. Dr. Kinsey and his Associates were the authors of the works SEXUAL BEHAVIOR IN THE HUMAN MALE and SEXUAL BEHAVIOR IN THE HUMAN FEMALE. These books have stood the test of time and extreme scrutiny. Period. Even by their peers. 

Go to www.indiana.edu/~kinsey where this subject is brought up and discussed. It is the web-site of Indiana University's ALFRED C. KINSEY INSTITUTE FOR RESEARCH IN SEX, GENDER, AND REPRODUCTION. 

John H.


----------



## I Are Baboon (Apr 19, 2005)

Every damn thread turns into the same discussion.


----------



## Vieope (Apr 19, 2005)

_Funny how the grammar experts didn´t complain about "belive" in the topic title. _


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## bio-chem (Apr 19, 2005)

nope like i said i only read the first book.  and having spent many hours in the lab and becoming intimately used to the scientific method, i can agree with the original statiticians who found kinseys methods flawed and his conclusions biased.


----------



## Muscle_Girl (Apr 19, 2005)

No, I don't believe there was a certain supernatural being that created us. In my own mind, I believe in evolution, just makes more sense than some dude walking on water and shit. So we came from apes.. and monkeys.. and before that all the way to parasites.
I do believe there is more out there in the universe and I do believe there are other beings. (not to mention we are (as humans) bring ourselves to our own destruction, thats another thread)


----------



## John H. (Apr 19, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> wrong john. find the post where i said i went to a university in the south. i didnt. i also never got upset over the difference between a college and a university. you have me confused with someonte else.
> 
> while i agree philisophically with rebublican grass roots ideals, i consider myself an independent and vote based on the candidates presented to me.  i am originally from washington state (spent my first 18 years there) lived 2 years in the philippines and now have lived in ut going to college for the rest.
> 
> as a mormon dont tell me what i believe because like a fool you assume. mormons dont hate homosexuals. ask crazy enough if she thinks i hate her.   mormons do not still practice polygamy, and we still believe in continued revelation from God in present time.  if you want to have a discussion on mormonism feel free to start a thread and id be happy to discuss it. untill then dont assume, it doesnt help your case at all



Bio boy,

Somewhere in one of your original posts to me in response to what I had said you did correct me on the use of the "college"/"university" thing and you did tell me you were going to college down "south" as I remember - unless I am wrong and it was Gococks. You are similar in thought and action. 

On TV not long ago there was a piece I think on 20/20 talking about a large town (I forget the name right now) in Utah were Mormons still practice having multiple wives, the town is surrounded by a wall and no one that is not "approved" is allowed in or out... And the population is about 100,000 if I remember right. The State Attorney General of Utah was investigating one of your members having a 15 year old wife that was one of his children if I remember right. (The program was awhile ago)... 

As far as the LDS church they do not like Homosexuals and BiSexuals and do damn them. Thus the hatred and the bigotry. Maybe YOU do not but as an institution they do and it has even been discussed on TV about this.

I will say that the LDS church in Salt Lake City DOES HAVE a TREMENDOUS CHOIR and Temple and Organ and Organist. World reknown and justly so! And one of their early churches still stands in Kirtland, Ohio, I have seen it. 

John H.


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## crazy_enough (Apr 19, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Crazy,
> 
> Are your "beliefs" based on the FACTS surrounding the research and those involved? Accurate, honest facts.
> 
> ...


WTF John, beleifs are just that beleifs!! U beleive in some form of a higher being right??? "Are your "beliefs" based on the FACTS? Accurate, honest facts?" I think not, beleif is pretty another word for opinion....

I dont really care if the pope, president or prime minister of Guatemala said the research was all fine and dandy, I personaly, from what I have read (and watched) about this fella and his so called research, disagree with the methods used and BELEIVE that they were wrong! What important breakthru did these "studies" provide to humanity?? If one's only concern in life is sex, I can see why this would be so damn imperative, but I dont see how this benefited our scientific knowledge as a society!
So we know that children orgasm....Woopdeefuckingdoo!!!! How does this advance our comprehension of sexual behaviour?? Do you ever consider the repercussions of these "experiments" on the children(and families) involved?? Perhaps U should read into that as well...


----------



## Muscle_Girl (Apr 19, 2005)

I vote he just STFU.. who is with me?


----------



## crazy_enough (Apr 19, 2005)

Muscle_Girl said:
			
		

> No, I don't believe there was a certain supernatural being that created us. In my own mind, I believe in evolution, just makes more sense than some dude walking on water and shit. So we came from apes.. and monkeys.. and before that all the way to parasites.
> I do believe there is more out there in the universe and I do believe there are other beings. (not to mention we are (as humans) bring ourselves to our own destruction, thats another thread)


That pretty much sums it up for me as well....


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## bio-chem (Apr 19, 2005)

well now we see where your understanding is flawed. maybe it was gococks but it wasnt me. you admit yourself to being unsure.  the piece on 20/20 about that town is true although that community is not 100,000 strong and is in no way affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. the community and others like it not just found in utah, but also in texas and arizona have no connection with salt lake and each group considers the other apostate from the truth.  before you go spouting off things as truth that you admit to not being able to remember correctly i think you should check your facts. and if you want to claim mormons as an institution are bigoted prove it. show a reference from an LDS leader that shows we are bigoted and hate homosexuals.


----------



## buff_tat2d_chic (Apr 19, 2005)

Muscle_Girl said:
			
		

> I vote he just STFU.. who is with me?


----------



## njc (Apr 19, 2005)

busyLivin said:
			
		

> Interesting... i find the opposite.. the more science I learn, the more I believe in God.   The element of chance is far too great, in my opinion.
> 
> Aliens creating us only moves the creation problem elsewhere. I've always seen this proposal as simply an admission of the impossiblity of our existence by chance.


 Same here.  The more I study, the more I believe.

 When I kick back and think about the essence of my mind.  My ability to experience such a broad range of emotions.  The ability of my mind to think and to reason and to percieve.  Its hard for me to believe that my mind could "just happen".  No way.


----------



## njc (Apr 19, 2005)

Maynard Keenan said:
			
		

> I see theres more proof of satan in this world then god. Although I do believe there is a god or creator of this world. Or maybe god and satan are the same. This world could just be for amusement for god. I believe this world is getting more evil every day.


 Proof of Satan is proof of god in itself.

 I dont think the world is getting more evil but im certain that the U.S. is.
 Jesus said, "for assuredly I say unto thee, it is more likely that a camel pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter upon the kingdon of heaven.

 Our materialistic sociey should be by everyones defention evil.  How many people starve to death so someone can drive a 50,000 dollar vehicle?  The rich get rich and the poorer get poorer.  If god where to come back and destroy a civilization as he supposedly has in the past Id expect America to be his first choice.

 Whether or not you believe Jesus Christ to be your lord it is essentially of no debate that the man existed as did his teachings.  And his teachings were great.  I was reading an excerpt from a piece of Literature authored by an agnostic, dont remember his first name but his last was Templeton.  Even himself, having great doubts to the validity of Jesus being the one said, "he was the greatest spiritual and moral genius who ever lived".  We can all learn much from his teachings. Just read them and tell me you feel nothing.


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## brogers (Apr 19, 2005)

I just love the hypocrisy, of John H, telling everyone to have an "open mind," yet he is the most close minded, stereotyping person on this thread.  I don't think being close minded is always bad either, but how about practicing what you preach since you dwell on being "open minded" so much and fail miserably at it.  

You write essays whining about religion, and religious leaders and how nothing but evil comes out of religion period.  That is one of the most foolish statements one could make.  It doesn't matter what your beliefs are, saying that is ridiculous considering the millions of people assisted by Christian churches, charities, and groups.  From what I take you're one of the most bitter people I've ever encountered.  I think that you have serious psychological issues.


----------



## maniclion (Apr 19, 2005)

....But I believe in love.
                      I believe in babies.
                      I believe in Mom and Dad.
                      And I believe in you.                 


                                Well, I don't believe that heaven waits,
                  For only those who congregate.
*                  I like to think of God as love:*
                  He's down below, He's up above.
                  He's watching people everywhere.
                  He knows who does and doesn't care.
                  And I'm an ordinary man,
                  Sometimes I wonder who I am.... Don Williams


----------



## gococksDJS (Apr 19, 2005)

brogers said:
			
		

> I just love the hypocrisy, of John H, telling everyone to have an "open mind," yet he is the most close minded, stereotyping person on this thread. I don't think being close minded is always bad either, but how about practicing what you preach since you dwell on being "open minded" so much and fail miserably at it.
> 
> You write essays whining about religion, and religious leaders and how nothing but evil comes out of religion period. That is one of the most foolish statements one could make. It doesn't matter what your beliefs are, saying that is ridiculous considering the millions of people assisted by Christian churches, charities, and groups. From what I take you're one of the most bitter people I've ever encountered. I think that you have serious psychological issues.


 couldn't agree more...


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## maniclion (Apr 19, 2005)

One Love! One Heart!
 Let's get together and feel all right.
 Hear the children cryin' (One Love!);
 Hear the children cryin' (One Heart!),


 Let them all pass all their dirty remarks (One Love!);
 There is one question I'd really love to ask (One Heart!):
*Is there a place for the hopeless sinner,
 Who has hurt all mankind just to save his own beliefs?
*


----------



## maniclion (Apr 19, 2005)

Love.

 Love is the answer to all of your questions.


----------



## nsimmons (Apr 19, 2005)

To mr_oo3

The PM isnt working, to answer your question i took some phil in college, logic, advanced logic. General history of hobbes, descartes, spinoza, leibniz, hume. Besides various extracts I specifically read leviathan (a task and a half!) by hobbes and descartes meditations. Whiles hobbes ideas are very dated I found them the most interesting. Descartes work was way to religiously biased for it to be compelling. Ive been meaning to study some of the ancient greek work as well as more modern philosophers, but havent had much time.

[edit] 
I just noticed it sent you 4 pm's i guess its my browser. Im using linux and mozilla, havent installed firefox yet


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## John H. (Apr 20, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> well that and they all touched children in a sexual way.



Bio,

You are wasting your time in college. You are there to LEARN - ALL things from ALL perspectives with an OPEN MIND. To do anything else IS NOT LEARNING. And you constantly show your total lack for any TRUTHFUL desire to actually LEARN anything.

If you can not see the difference between these people you are sad.

John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 20, 2005)

crazy_enough said:
			
		

> WTF John, beleifs are just that beleifs!! U beleive in some form of a higher being right??? "Are your "beliefs" based on the FACTS? Accurate, honest facts?" I think not, beleif is pretty another word for opinion....
> 
> I dont really care if the pope, president or prime minister of Guatemala said the research was all fine and dandy, I personaly, from what I have read (and watched) about this fella and his so called research, disagree with the methods used and BELEIVE that they were wrong! What important breakthru did these "studies" provide to humanity?? If one's only concern in life is sex, I can see why this would be so damn imperative, but I dont see how this benefited our scientific knowledge as a society!
> So we know that children orgasm....Woopdeefuckingdoo!!!! How does this advance our comprehension of sexual behaviour?? Do you ever consider the repercussions of these "experiments" on the children(and families) involved?? Perhaps U should read into that as well...



Hi Crazy,

"Beliefs" can come about to "fill a void" for someone. To have some kind of "answer" for the moment but those "beliefs" are not always accurate, true, complete, honest, etc. We can "believe" one way and later on "believe another way" based on what we subsequently learn - which is a part of being Human and experiencing life along the way - we learn (hopefully) along the way in each of our lives. Early on we know next to nothing and throughout our lives we learn and add on to what we "already know" but the methods we use to DO that honestly is very important. Considering ALL things from ALL perspectives ALL the time with an OPEN MIND OBJECTIVELY is IMPERATIVE. To do otherwise is lying to oneself. And to others as well. 

First of all this is supposed to be a place for discussion - about whatever. And I like to DISCUSS with people ALL aspects of ANYTHING - as a mature adult who happens to be a Male - but is a Human Being. From all angles.

In order for Human Beings to understand about themselves at all age levels because there is a beginning and and end to the life of each of us and an inbetween and to UNDERSTAND it you must research it from beginning to end to have a complete understanding and to know how to deal with any problems or questions that come about. Scientific research is done with that in mind - for the BETTERMENT and UNDERSTANDING of ALL things. TO HELP SINCERELY. NEVER to ABUSE anyone ever. 

You need to do more personal research into this subject and the work Dr. Kinsey and his Associates and others like him did and know the benefits their work achieves FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL people. Do you think Dr. Kinsey is the only person to have done this research? Not at all. But he sure TRIED his very best as a fellow Human Being TO DO CREDIBLE, HELPFUL, ACCURATE, HONEST, COMPLETE, THOROUGH, SINCERE, etc.  research to the best of his abilities because he knew and understood the NEED. And we ALL have BENEFITED GREATLY from his work. His work has stood the test of time and a hell of a lot of extreme scrutiny which he WELCOMED because he understood the importance of the work and the need for HONEST QUESTIONING BY ALL PEOPLE FROM ALL ANGLES and purposes. He KNEW his work would draw "fire" from some people and he wanted to ANSWER their concerns as well. HONESTLY.

Dr. Kinsey was a family man and a father as well and loved his family AND HIS CHILDREN - and as a mature adult CHILDREN in general. NOT as an "abuser" of people but someone WHO HELPED OTHERS SINCERELY AND HONESTLY. 

Take Care, John H.


----------



## busyLivin (Apr 20, 2005)

John, you call anyone who does not agree with you close-minded.  Your devotion to Kinsey is yours.  Our dislike of him is ours. VARIETY!!


----------



## tucker01 (Apr 20, 2005)

Please explain to me what we have benefited from Dr. Kinsey's work? HONESTLY

And don't go off on some tangent, I just want a cut and dry answer for a change


----------



## devildog88 (Apr 20, 2005)

Here is a great article and a great outlook on life!
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/3549082


----------



## John H. (Apr 20, 2005)

brogers said:
			
		

> I just love the hypocrisy, of John H, telling everyone to have an "open mind," yet he is the most close minded, stereotyping person on this thread.  I don't think being close minded is always bad either, but how about practicing what you preach since you dwell on being "open minded" so much and fail miserably at it.
> 
> You write essays whining about religion, and religious leaders and how nothing but evil comes out of religion period.  That is one of the most foolish statements one could make.  It doesn't matter what your beliefs are, saying that is ridiculous considering the millions of people assisted by Christian churches, charities, and groups.  From what I take you're one of the most bitter people I've ever encountered.  I think that you have serious psychological issues.



Brogers,

IF you look at the ENTIRETY of "religion" and what IT REALLY DOES - OR NOT - is what I am saying. There ARE variations in ALL things. And ALL types. GENERALLY OVERALL "religion" is not a postive in anyone's life IF IT IS NOT TRUTHFUL, HONEST, COMPLETE, ACCURATE, HELPFUL, etc. Look to the history of the past practices - and even the present OVERALL of ALL "religions" and there is a HELL OF A LOT OF ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT given the "definition" of what "religion" is "supposed to be" and "what it is supposed to do"... Sure there is some good and there is bad as well as with anything but on the whole there is not something to be proud of or is contributing honestly to the wellbeing of all people. Your attacking me as if I have some "psychological issues" I feel is based ON YOUR PERSONAL BELIEF DEEPDOWN at to the VALIDITY of what I am saying. You KNOW yourself there are REAL PROBLEMS with "religion" or you would not be so "upset" at someone honestly pointing that out because THEY HAVE OBSERVED IT THEMSELVES - others have to but are not always vocal about it - many just "accept" or "swallow" what "happens" and move on but that does not CORRECT something that IS WRONG. And by your own admission YOU are NOT looking at the WHOLE PICTURE FROM ALL SIDES of the equation.

John H.


----------



## devildog88 (Apr 20, 2005)

John, I think you are the Anti-Christ!


----------



## John H. (Apr 20, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> well now we see where your understanding is flawed. maybe it was gococks but it wasnt me. you admit yourself to being unsure.  the piece on 20/20 about that town is true although that community is not 100,000 strong and is in no way affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. the community and others like it not just found in utah, but also in texas and arizona have no connection with salt lake and each group considers the other apostate from the truth.  before you go spouting off things as truth that you admit to not being able to remember correctly i think you should check your facts. and if you want to claim mormons as an institution are bigoted prove it. show a reference from an LDS leader that shows we are bigoted and hate homosexuals.



Bio,

No one is perfect and I never said nor indicated I feel I AM. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I said AS I RECALL with regard to something I saw on several television documentaries and programs awhile back. And in those programs they provided their documentation to prove what they were saying. One of the things that is KNOWN about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is that they do not like people who are Homosexual and BiSexual at all. And have no use for them. Or understand or want to understand them. 

As for various "factions" of The Church whether they are "affiliated" directly or not they still consider themselves as believing in your church basically except for variations. And those beliefs are some of what your original Church as founded believed in - maybe not now but certainly did and some still do which is my point. There are those that say they are Mormons and believe differently from the present Church of Jesus Christ. Which is why I said there are THOUSANDS of religions each with their own beliefs - as with Human Beings - each has their own beliefs about whatever... "religion" IS MAN-MADE.

As for the hatred and the bigotry it does exist in your Church. It has been reported on. To immediately bring that direct information up I can not do quoting sources "right this minute". I'll have to get back to you on that and check to see where I learned that information. But I DID hear this and not from just one source. 

John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 20, 2005)

maniclion said:
			
		

> One Love! One Heart!
> Let's get together and feel all right.
> Hear the children cryin' (One Love!);
> Hear the children cryin' (One Heart!),
> ...



Hi Maniclion,

I wish it were possible. 

But as EVIDENCED by the history of "religion" and their present practices as well it is apparently not possible. This mess has been going on since the invention of "religion". And NOTHING has changed since the Coming of and Life of and Death of Christ which is what was supposed to happen as a result of that. "Religion" is STILL the SAME.

Take Care, John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 20, 2005)

maniclion said:
			
		

> Love.
> 
> Love is the answer to all of your questions.



Hi Maniclion,

TRUE!

But look at how many do NOT - and to what extent they WILL NOT!!!

Not as for the haters, the bigots, the violence-mongers, etc. THERE ARE LEGIONS all "professing" to "believe in God and His messages" but really not following ANY.

Hypocrisy!!

Take Care, John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 20, 2005)

busyLivin said:
			
		

> John, you call anyone who does not agree with you close-minded.  Your devotion to Kinsey is yours.  Our dislike of him is ours. VARIETY!!



Hi Busy,

I understand that. MY words are based ON ALL THE INFORMATION I HAVE GAINED from the work of Dr. Kinsey and His Associates from ALL perspectives. With an OPEN mind. 

Anyone is entitled to their opinion or feelings or beliefs. But I hope it will always be based on ALL THE INFORMATION OF A SUBJECT. OBJECTIVELY.

Take Care, John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 20, 2005)

IainDaniel said:
			
		

> Please explain to me what we have benefited from Dr. Kinsey's work? HONESTLY
> 
> And don't go off on some tangent, I just want a cut and dry answer for a change



Hi I,

I wish that were as easy as you would like it to be. Dr. Kinsey and His Associates WORKED HARD on their research HONESTLY for at least 20 years and did not have "all the answers" and still do not. It is ongoing. The research. To this very day. YOU, YOU must DO your own research into the topic as to its reasons, methodology, etc. and the WHY. 

Dr. Kinsey's works that were published during his lifetime - two is all he was able to do before he died - are each about 800 pages of facts in length and took a hell of a lot of time and effort to compile and conclude. Probably 90% of what was gained still has not been published to date there was so much work to do. See www.indiana.edu/~kinsey for THE ALFRED C. KINSEY INSTITUTE FOR RESEARCH IN SEX, GENDER, AND REPRODUCTION. It has a brief outline of the work that is do important and necessary. 

Read his book entirely and read others - that is really the only way you will get the answers you are seeking. It is not a "magic answer" simply stated to be accurate.

Take Care, John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 20, 2005)

devildog88 said:
			
		

> John, I think you are the Anti-Christ!



Devil,

No, not at all.

John H.


----------



## tucker01 (Apr 20, 2005)

John,

You are truly amazing how you twist questions around.  You have founded an OPINION on what is so great about Dr. Kinsey.  Please explain where this OPINION comes from and what aspects of his research supports this.  Otherwise you are just posting useless banter, and are not going to have that so-called intelligent conversation you are looking for on the topic.


----------



## Vieope (Apr 20, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Devil,
> 
> No, not at all.
> 
> John H.



_Yeah devil, know who you are. _


----------



## devildog88 (Apr 20, 2005)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Yeah devil, know who you are. _


How could you know who I am?   Its a Secret!  Shhhhhhhh!


----------



## crazy_enough (Apr 20, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Hi I,
> 
> I wish that were as easy as you would like it to be. Dr. Kinsey and His Associates WORKED HARD on their research HONESTLY for at least 20 years and did not have "all the answers" and still do not. It is ongoing. The research. To this very day. YOU, YOU must DO your own research into the topic as to its reasons, methodology, etc. and the WHY.
> 
> ...


WHAT??? So WE WE must do research into the reasoning and purpose of research?? OMG, this is going nowhere...

I try to stay grounded and respect you John, but there is one thing that I truly dislike, and this would apply if it concerned anyone other than you as well, its when people dont have an answer to something, and just keep going 'round in circles, making empty claims and talking out of their their ass....

U know, kinda like when U call XYZ company, and the front line agent who answers ur call doesnt know the answer to your question, and instead of putting you on hold to find out, or simply admitting that he doesnt know, he just feeds u bullshit!! I find that type of behaviour abrasive and quite irritating...

You say that you want to "discuss" no problem, lets do that, but u have to realize that a discussion involves two or more parties who may not always agree with you, and if all u want is to always think that ure right and shove it down people's throat with mindless insults and comments, then perhaps your should re assess your "discussion" skills...


----------



## King Silverback (Apr 20, 2005)

Only John H. Can take a thread about GOD, and turn it into a thread about abusing children sexually and "DEFEND" it!!!
Can you say............


And another thing, No-one, and I mean NO-ONE cares about the size of your manhood, please keep that to yourself, especially in a "GOD" thread. Please be respectful to the other people who came here honestly to answer a question. Not to be bombarded by a perverse child abuser defender!!!
Thank you and take care!!!


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 20, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Bio,
> 
> You are wasting your time in college. You are there to LEARN - ALL things from ALL perspectives with an OPEN MIND. To do anything else IS NOT LEARNING. And you constantly show your total lack for any TRUTHFUL desire to actually LEARN anything.
> 
> ...


 it must really burn you up that i get a college education while you dont. oh well.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 20, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Bio,
> 
> No one is perfect and I never said nor indicated I feel I AM. Nothing could be further from the truth.
> 
> ...


 sorry to correct john on a point of LDS doctrine, but his mistakes kind of make me mad because they are so blatant.  show me the sources john because you will be searching for a while. they dont exist.  members of the  LDS church do not believe in polygamy. those people who do believe in polygamy are completly separate and consider each other apostate. this is not like there is a faction within the church where both sides are still LDS. your understanding is flawed and i feel you should research before you post.


----------



## LW83 (Apr 20, 2005)

Beleive whatever you must, in order to cope.  I, personally, do not need 'god'.


----------



## John H. (Apr 21, 2005)

IainDaniel said:
			
		

> John,
> 
> You are truly amazing how you twist questions around.  You have founded an OPINION on what is so great about Dr. Kinsey.  Please explain where this OPINION comes from and what aspects of his research supports this.  Otherwise you are just posting useless banter, and are not going to have that so-called intelligent conversation you are looking for on the topic.



I,

The subject is huge and multi-faceted. 

You are asking ME to DO work YOU NEED TO DO - YOU NEED to DO your own research - hopefully with no pre-conceived notions, hated, bigotry, etc. BEFORE you embark. You are asking ME to read things FOR you and then tell you WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR YOUR WAY.

Every person MUST DO their OWN questioning and learning. If you really want answers YOU HAVE TO SEEK THEM FOR YOURSELF - hopefuly you will consider ALL aspects of any subject before you make any judgements - and REMEMBER - all through your life you will find new information about old subjects you THOUGHT you knew everything about - with Human Beings it is IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW EVERYTHING. Learning is LIFELONG for everyone.

READ AND UNDERSTAND AND COMPREHEND what Dr. Kinsey has written. Look to what others have said FROM ALL VIEWPOINTS. See ALL the biographies and the research done. See both pro and con. Then make your own decisions about whatever. That is something YOU MUST DO to find the answers YOU are seeking.

John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 21, 2005)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Yeah devil, know who you are. _



Hi "V",

I think some here think both you and I ARE!   

Maybe because we both enjoy and understand LIFE as it IS and MEANT TO BE. Some people do get upset when someone else IS ENJOYING THEMSELVES TRUTHFULLY AND HONESTLY and so they get angry AT THEM - NOT at THEMSELVES which is who they should be upset with or question to find the personal reasons they are so unhappy themselves.

Take Care, John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 21, 2005)

crazy_enough said:
			
		

> WHAT??? So WE WE must do research into the reasoning and purpose of research?? OMG, this is going nowhere...
> 
> I try to stay grounded and respect you John, but there is one thing that I truly dislike, and this would apply if it concerned anyone other than you as well, its when people dont have an answer to something, and just keep going 'round in circles, making empty claims and talking out of their their ass....
> 
> ...



Hi Crazy,

WHY would YOU want ME to DO work YOU NEED TO DO - and MUST - to answer questions YOU HAVE? See what I am saying? If that were the way to approach a subject anyone had questions about no one would DO their own research to find answers THEY ARE SEEKING. They'd DEPEND on someone ELSE to DO the work THEY NEED TO DO. 

Consider this quote:

"It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become prey to the active. The condition upon which God has given Liberty to man is eternal vigilence. Which condition, if he break, servitude is the consquence of his crime and the punishment for his guilt." - Speech Upon the Right of Election, John Philpot Curran (1790).

In other words EACH PERSON MUST DO the work THEMSELVES and NEVER allow someone else to do it FOR THEM - because that is how one person gains power over another. This is how each of us LOOSE our individual right - by giving them up - abdicating them - to others. This applies to a person and their thinking and questioning. EACH PERSON MUST DO THEIR OWN RESEARCH TO FIND THE ANSWERS THEY ARE SEEKING - THEMSELVES. I can help give you some resources I have utilized and you can look at THOSE but you ALSO NEED to see ALL OTHERS I may or may not have seen. You MUST CONSIDER EVERYTHING from ALL perspectives before you make any judgements about anything and WITH AN OPEN MIND - NO preconceived notions.

You and I are talking about a very important and huge subject that is multifaceted. You MUST gain an HONEST UNDERSTANDING as to the WHY research would be done in this area BEFOREHAND. Then you can proceed to investigate what it is you are seeking. When you do these things you will begin to understand THE WHOLE of the subject. You can NEVER use tunnel vision if you want TRUTHFUL ACCURATE ANSWERS to anything.

Take Care, John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 21, 2005)

devildog88 said:
			
		

> How could you know who I am?   Its a Secret!  Shhhhhhhh!



Hi Devil,

You LIKE keeping "secrets" don't you...   

Take Care, John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 21, 2005)

Archangel said:
			
		

> Only John H. Can take a thread about GOD, and turn it into a thread about abusing children sexually and "DEFEND" it!!!
> Can you say............
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Archangel,

I never took this thread and turned it into a defense of the abuse of children!!

NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. AND I NEVER HAVE AND NEVER WOULD "DEFEND" THE ABUSE OF A CHILD - EVER. You need to carefully re-read what I actually said.

As for my "manhood" read what I said - "BY WAY OF EXPLANATION" - of the subject at hand by a mature adult male and that is how you SHOULD have read my response. 

And there are some who wonder why I use capitals and people STILL do NOT get it - BY WAY OF EXPLANATION AND EMPHASIS of a point being made.

Take Care, John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 21, 2005)

I just realized something - this site has "Spelchek". Call me completely blind - I did not see that until now.

If it would have been a snake I would be dead by  now.

Take Care, John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 21, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> it must really burn you up that i get a college education while you dont. oh well.



Bio,

No not at all - IF you REALLY ARE - which according to how you wirte and what you rite and your closed mind...

Ok, I wrote this on purpose this way to try Spelchek and it does not work right. "wirte" should be "write" and "rite" should be "write" but it did not catch the second "rite" even when I asked it to check again.

Now as for your college education - when you truly get one I will see the evidence of it and so will everyone else. And if you do not they will see that too. It all depends ON YOU. You are either going to be honest about getting and HONEST education or not - and whether it is complete and well-rounded or not as well.

Take less time speaking for others who can speak for themselves and less time finding fault with others when you yourself have faults you need to correct.

And for a Mormon you claim to be too... I thought all you guys were "saints"...

John H.


----------



## devildog88 (Apr 21, 2005)

John, 

I have a few secrets just like anyone in this forum.  However I said that you couldn't possibly know who I am because I come from such a romote place.  I don't know anyone on this thread and I like it that way.  It fosters "open minded" conversation.  For example John, If I knew who you were and where you worked out I would hunt you and make you sorry for many of the things you have said.  So you see it is better this way.  Remember John, I served with my beloved Marine Corps for many years and in compat.  We had a little saying in our circle of professionals................................."you can run but you will only die tired"!

Ooooohhhhhhh  Rahhhhhhh!


----------



## tucker01 (Apr 21, 2005)

John you truly are a waste of time.  You pose an opinion on something and present no defense to that opinion other than read this website or read this book.  We don't give a shit about these websites or these books.  We want to know why you have come up with your opinion.  What reasoning is there to form these opinions.  So unless you got something useful to post please stop with the usless banter. 

Enough is Enough already.


----------



## John H. (Apr 21, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> sorry to correct john on a point of LDS doctrine, but his mistakes kind of make me mad because they are so blatant.  show me the sources john because you will be searching for a while. they dont exist.  members of the  LDS church do not believe in polygamy. those people who do believe in polygamy are completly separate and consider each other apostate. this is not like there is a faction within the church where both sides are still LDS. your understanding is flawed and i feel you should research before you post.



Bio,

"sorry to correct john on a point of LDS doctrine, but his mistakes kind of make me mad because they are so blatant." - I have no idea what you are trying to say. I re-read the original post and I do not see what you are saying. 

As for LDS doctrine though, while there may be a "doctrine" it does not GUARANTEE the followers will follow what the doctrine is as stated. This happens everywhere. People are people and tend to do as they please. And "doctrines" ARE MAN-MADE.

I said the Mormons DID believe in polygamy and practice it and they did and SOME who call themselves Mormons or "saints" (I can not after two years or more remember exactly) still do. And  faction(s) of your church they say. Whether they actually ARE "accepted or not" they still claim that as so. It has been reported on and the Attorney General of Utah has been investigating that and it was also reported that this has been going on for awhile and that the power the LDS Church has in Utah is one of the reasons it has (the lack of true investigating) gone on so long. I did not know about problems that exist in other states which you brought up. But nothing surprises me about anything usually. People are people. The factions that still practice polygamy I was referring to and as reported on the national news were said to be located in a town in Utah and the population of that town if I remember correctly (it was a story I saw a few years ago) was 100,000. The town has its own police force, the town is surrounded by a wall completely around it and no one can leave or enter unless they are approved to do so and there is no television, no telephones, no outside communication allowed. This story on national tv came about because of one of its members who had a 15 year old wife who was also one of his many children if I remember correctly.

You can liken this whole discussion to Homosexuals really. The same happens. There are those that when anyone mentions the word "Homosexual" will apply the worst to ALL of them. Even though there are some good and some bad as with anything else. Including Mormons. Or Saints. Or whoever. 

You need to re-read what I actually said without being angry about it while you are reading it - calmly - and see what it IS I AM saying.

John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 21, 2005)

njc said:
			
		

> Same here.  The more I study, the more I believe.
> 
> When I kick back and think about the essence of my mind.  My ability to experience such a broad range of emotions.  The ability of my mind to think and to reason and to percieve.  Its hard for me to believe that my mind could "just happen".  No way.



Hi njc,

BUT - HOWEVER - what IS VERY IMPORTANT - is that you say "the more I study, the more I believe" - BUT WHAT IS IT you are "studying"? That is VERY IMPORTANT TO ANSWER. IF you ONLY study from one viewpoint and one source than you are not really "studying" broadmindedly and you will not gain a true understanding of the whole subject. You need to consider ALL information from ALL sources ALL the time - OBJECTIVELY. With NO preconceived ideas.

Take Care, John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 21, 2005)

devildog88 said:
			
		

> John,
> 
> I have a few secrets just like anyone in this forum.  However I said that you couldn't possibly know who I am because I come from such a romote place.  I don't know anyone on this thread and I like it that way.  It fosters "open minded" conversation.  For example John, If I knew who you were and where you worked out I would hunt you and make you sorry for many of the things you have said.  So you see it is better this way.  Remember John, I served with my beloved Marine Corps for many years and in compat.  We had a little saying in our circle of professionals................................."you can run but you will only die tired"!
> 
> Ooooohhhhhhh  Rahhhhhhh!



Devil,

I TOO have served - HONORABLY - IN WARTIME HAND-TO-HAND and with MEN. The Marine Corps are NOT the ONLY MEN that are fighting - or loving other Men. 

I was joking with you about "your" "secrets" because I thought you too were joking. Now that I find you are embittered... 

NOT BRAGGING and BY WAY OF EXPLANATION (caps INTENDED by way of explanation) I have had other Men who thought they could beat my ass too - and some have certainly tried honestly and I have never won ALL fights BUT I ALWAYS go into a fight to WIN and DO MY ULTIMATE and anyone that has fought with me KNOWS AND REMEMBERS THEY DID - I conduct myself that way - but I do not broadcast this information - they find it out after - and REMEMBER - because that is what I want them to do - REMEMBER - and never want to revisit that again with ME. I do not play around - it is serious business. And sometimes necessary. I never do anything half-assed. And I am NOT threatening you or anyone else here - just making a statement about myself that is ABSOLUTELY TRUE. I only weigh 190 and am 6'2" tall but I do have ALL muscle and no fat and stay that way all the time - I am hard-wired I guess. A 300 pounder probably could beat me but he would have a hell of a time doing that. Trust me. I like to fight when fighting is the only way to go.

I am a very quiet Man and say very little about much of anything. And try to get along with just about anyone. When that is possible. I let my actions and my deeds speak for themselves. People that know me KNOW that.

And I do not need a "call" to express myself. I let me speak for me when the time comes - quietly and effectively. 

John H.


----------



## devildog88 (Apr 21, 2005)

John, 

You need to take a little of your own advice.........read my post I never said anything about "beating your ass"  Simply put, I would find alternative ways, if I needed too.  But what I was really implying is that I would torment you and you wouldn't have a clue who was doing it.


----------



## devildog88 (Apr 21, 2005)

Oh, and john I truley doubt that you know the meaning of serving your country.  A male nurse on a ship doesn't count!   No wonder you have homosexual tendencies!


----------



## John H. (Apr 21, 2005)

IainDaniel said:
			
		

> John you truly are a waste of time.  You pose an opinion on something and present no defense to that opinion other than read this website or read this book.  We don't give a shit about these websites or these books.  We want to know why you have come up with your opinion.  What reasoning is there to form these opinions.  So unless you got something useful to post please stop with the usless banter.
> 
> Enough is Enough already.



I,

The Man was a scientist and researcher of the first order and worked damn hard at everything he did to BE THE VERY BEST and whatever he did. He never wanted anyone to be able to find error in his work because he wanted he work to be without error so it would be credible and honest and accurate. He was a father and husband and loved his wife and his children. His research was ultimately done because he was asked to conduct a class in Marriage and Family at Indiana University at Bloomington, Indiana, along with two other Professors and he accepted the post. The request came from the students who wanted such a class and he was asked by the Regents if he would be interested in teaching such a class and being a biologist he said he would. 

When he began teaching questions arouse he did not know the answers to himself and upon looking for those answers himself found there were no answers because no one had ever done any research to find those answers and publish them. He also found that the reason no research had been done was because of "religions" basically prohibiting ANYONE from questioning anything with regard to Sex and how it IS not how it is "perceived to be" by "religion" which is why he ran into trouble with some people because he HONESTLY AND THOROUGHLY AND COMPLETELY AS POSSIBLE QUESTIONED ALL ASPECTS OF THE SUBJECT and found answers that were credible because to DO ACCURATE research you must have ACCURATE ANSWERS. And some of those answers "disturbed" the "faint at heart" and the "organized planned belief" as to "how it is 'supposed to be'"... His work "rocked the perverbal boat" BIGTIME. He dropped an atom bomb on the "establishment".. His type research had NEVER BEEN DONE and SO THOROUGHLY OR ACCURATELY OR COMPLETELY BEFORE because no one else was "allowed to"...

Do yourself a favor. Before you investigate what he found out, read about him and his life from all aspects to find out the kind of Man he was and why he found this subject so VERY IMPORTANT to HAVE TRUTHFUL ACCURATE HONEST ANSWERS to. Then investigate his methodology and that of his Associates. And remember he is not the only person but that he was the FIRST person to REALLY DO CREDIBLE WORK in this area because of the "created taboos" by "religions" against such research. 

Do your research with an open mind completely so. Have no preconceived ideas beforehand. 

Also see how very popular and welcoming his work became and the masses that WELCOMED his seminars. They were always VERY WELL RECEIVED and to OVERFLOWING CROWDS because his work spoke for itself honestly.

John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 21, 2005)

devildog88 said:
			
		

> John,
> 
> You need to take a little of your own advice.........read my post I never said anything about "beating your ass"  Simply put, I would find alternative ways, if I needed too.  But what I was really implying is that I would torment you and you wouldn't have a clue who was doing it.



Devil,

You DID say that you would hunt me out, etc. - re-read the post YOU made to me. It was a threat. Anyone that read the same thing would see it so. You method would not always matter. A threat is a threat. 

What do you call: "For example, John If I knew who you were and where you worked out I would hunt you and make you sorry for many of the things you have said."  And you go on about your combat experience and you being a Marine... You made these statements to me. I take them at face "value". 

I think you have personal unresolved issues. And wanting to take them out on "somone". 

I have gone around with THE BEST. And some of those MEN are my BEST FRIENDS - now. Because THEY NOW KNOW WHO AND WHAT I REALLY AM - a MAN in the truest sense. 

I have had the VERY SAME training as you - I WORKED WITH MARINES MYSELF in training and IN COMBAT. The difference between you and I is that I can get along with just about anyone - ESPECIALLY MARINES. We SEE eye-to-eye about a LOT. And I STILL have them and always will AS TRUE FRIENDS - that I LOVE (no matter how you want to define that - and THEY KNOW THAT and are COMPLETELY FINE WITH THAT!! TRUST ME!!) I do not "kiss and tell" - my PRIVATE busines IS. And THEIRS as well. I RESPECT AND HONOR THOSE I LOVE. They KNOW THAT>

John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 21, 2005)

My intensions on this Board are to have DISCUSSIONS with other Mature Adults who can discuss anything AS A MATURE ADULT. For the BETTERMENT AND UNDERSTANDING AND HELP of ALL.

Nothing more.

Take Care, John H.


----------



## devildog88 (Apr 21, 2005)

You see John,

This is why people don't like you.  You do not have an open mind as you preach.  Hunting someone out is not a threat and it does not mean beating your ass.  I have "hunted" people in the the desert and they never even knew I was there.  But they also were unaware that they had been "painted" with a laser rangefinder, then acquired with a .50 cal rifle from a mile away.  Given the order they would have been cut in half.  So take it the way you want.  But what would most please me is if you would stop posting usless inofmation.  I haven't been on this forum as long as most but I have already developed adn intolorence for you!   Wise up and realize  what peole think of you.  i am not sure there is anyone on this forum that agrees or likes you.  Take your toys and go home.

Devil Dog by training Patriot for life!


----------



## John H. (Apr 21, 2005)

devildog88 said:
			
		

> Oh, and john I truley doubt that you know the meaning of serving your country.  A male nurse on a ship doesn't count!   No wonder you have homosexual tendencies!



Devil,

No NOT a "male nurse on a ship"!!!

A MAN - a INFANTRY MAN IN COMBAT IN WAR. And I am a BiSexual MAN - I LOVE people - Human Beings - both Men AND Women. And I use NO ONE. And they do not me. EVER. Those I have been with KNOW I CARE ABOUT THEM COMPLETELY and Equally.

John H.


----------



## devildog88 (Apr 21, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Devil,
> 
> No NOT a "male nurse on a ship"!!!
> 
> ...


Yeah, uh huh.  Sure you were.         .  
Ok John Here is your chance, What branch, what unit/division.  Tell me your MOS and where you were stationed.  Where did you serve and what part of this little world did you serve in combat?


----------



## tucker01 (Apr 21, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> I,
> 
> The Man was a scientist and researcher of the first order and worked damn hard at everything he did to BE THE VERY BEST and whatever he did. He never wanted anyone to be able to find error in his work because he wanted he work to be without error so it would be credible and honest and accurate. He was a father and husband and loved his wife and his children. His research was ultimately done because he was asked to conduct a class in Marriage and Family at Indiana University at Bloomington, Indiana, along with two other Professors and he accepted the post. The request came from the students who wanted such a class and he was asked by the Regents if he would be interested in teaching such a class and being a biologist he said he would.
> 
> ...



Wow another BS answer with no substiantial reason to show your support for him other than he did research to his best.  Have you even read his books or is your trolling of these sites just for fun to stir up shit. I already know how your going to answer so don't bother I am done.


----------



## John H. (Apr 21, 2005)

devildog88 said:
			
		

> You see John,
> 
> This is why people don't like you.  You do not have an open mind as you preach.  Hunting someone out is not a threat and it does not mean beating your ass.  I have "hunted" people in the the desert and they never even knew I was there.  But they also were unaware that they had been "painted" with a laser rangefinder, then acquired with a .50 cal rifle from a mile away.  Given the order they would have been cut in half.  So take it the way you want.  But what would most please me is if you would stop posting usless inofmation.  I haven't been on this forum as long as most but I have already developed adn intolorence for you!   Wise up and realize  what peole think of you.  i am not sure there is anyone on this forum that agrees or likes you.  Take your toys and go home.
> 
> Devil Dog by training Patriot for life!



Devil,

The difference between you and I is that I do NOT "tell" people what I can and have done or will do. I am very silent and careful and methodical. I cause no one harm but I do not let harm come my way - I am VERY observant and SEE - by training I have done myself before I even went into the service which is why I am a former Sniper-recon infantryman. And I was trained very well by the best - and by the Marines as well. One on one. 

Now I do not like to revisit what I have done. I know. And that is all that matters. I know what I am capable of and why and the right reasons - not just made up. I am thorough and complete. 

I see you like to speak for others. I always let others speak for themselves. If someone dislikes me that is up to them. But they do not KNOW me. I only let "certain people" "in" and am VERY SELECTIVE. And I know whenever there is any danger - I trained myself well too. 

I do not wave a "flag" or say I am a "patriot" - those that KNOW me KNOW WHO I AM by my actions every day.

33 confirmed. And I do not want to discuss this - doing it is enough "discussion". 

John H.


----------



## devildog88 (Apr 21, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Devil,
> 
> The difference between you and I is that I do NOT "tell" people what I can and have done or will do. I am very silent and careful and methodical. I cause no one harm but I do not let harm come my way - I am VERY observant and SEE - by training I have done myself before I even went into the service which is why I am a former Sniper-recon infantryman. And I was trained very well by the best - and by the Marines as well. One on one.
> 
> ...


You are so full of shit you stink!  The first rule is never speak of the confirms!  You are a fake Son!


----------



## John H. (Apr 21, 2005)

devildog88 said:
			
		

> You are so full of shit you stink!  The first rule is never speak of the confirms!  You are a fake Son!



Devil,

Like I said, I am a quiet Man. 

I do not tell everything and mostly not much of anything. I KNOW. That's good enough. And those MEN I speak to "in silence" KNOW what I am SAYING.

John H.


----------



## devildog88 (Apr 21, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Devil,
> 
> Like I said, I am a quiet Man.
> 
> ...


Like I said, you are full of shit!  Which means all of your other posts are meaningless and shallow!

God Bless America


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 21, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Devil,
> 
> Like I said, I am a quiet Man.
> 
> John H.


 john you have a very interesting opinion of yourself.  hard to believe, but then again it could be an inferiority complex so you have to get your feelings out over the internet so things dont go bad for you. hell we could all in effect be a group therapy session for you. ha ha ha.

 make all the conclusions you want about how i type and my education, the ironic thing is john i have seen you make typeing mistakes on the same post that you were trying to correct someone on.

 and i have now come to the conclusion people really dont take any of your posts seriously anymore so there is no need to really contend points of arguement with you. people here are smart enough to realize not to take your word for something and to look it up themselves if they are curious enough about it.  good luck with therapy john


----------



## maniclion (Apr 21, 2005)

The question should be does God believe in me?  Why did he put me here to test me, does he not have any faith in me?


----------



## King Silverback (Apr 21, 2005)

John H.
You continue to say that you do not support child abuse, or those who do it. And yet you support someone who was sick enough in the head to wonder, and experiment and study about that EXACT thing. You say he loved his children, would he let his children be involved in the study? And even more, since you defend him like a long lost lover, would you like your kids involved in the study? That is my POINT!!! There is NOTHING to defend, he is a WHACKO, and ANYONE who defends him as strongly as you do, I'm sorry but I think you have a problem. Why do you think his study of sexual abuse on children is okay? You claim it was for legitimate science, I still believe anyone in their right mind thinks it's wrong. Again what if it was with your child? Do you see MY point!!!
It's frustrating to think MY Lord died for ignorant and perverse people like that.


----------



## John H. (Apr 22, 2005)

Archangel said:
			
		

> John H.
> You continue to say that you do not support child abuse, or those who do it. And yet you support someone who was sick enough in the head to wonder, and experiment and study about that EXACT thing. You say he loved his children, would he let his children be involved in the study? And even more, since you defend him like a long lost lover, would you like your kids involved in the study? That is my POINT!!! There is NOTHING to defend, he is a WHACKO, and ANYONE who defends him as strongly as you do, I'm sorry but I think you have a problem. Why do you think his study of sexual abuse on children is okay? You claim it was for legitimate science, I still believe anyone in their right mind thinks it's wrong. Again what if it was with your child? Do you see MY point!!!
> It's frustrating to think MY Lord died for ignorant and perverse people like that.



Archangel,

I see what you are saying. I DO understand ANYONE being honestly concerned especially when it comes to the welfare and care of children. You DO NOT see what I am saying.

And I doubt you even read even one word of the work Dr. Kinsey and his Associates wrote - certainly not with any objectivity. Have YOU actually read anything written? And exactly what?

I DO NOT CONDONE the abuse of anyone - ESPECIALLY CHILDREN - in any form. . I never said I did and anyone that actually knows me personally KNOWS what I feel about it, etc. Having said that,  Dr. Kinsey and his Associates DID NOT abuse anyone at any time. You would not KNOW that yourself because of your lack of what actually DID happen and the why behind it. And you do not see the importance of the totality of the work done. 

You are not the first and not the last person to disagree with Dr. Kinsey and his work. MANY however have understood that work completely and did actually read what was written objectively as mature adults and agree with it. And see and understand the accuracy and truthfulness of it. The majority of those that disagree are those that can be idenitifed as "overtly religious" people. Many times these people read nothing more than the Bible - it is their ONLY source for any knowledge about anything. They never really consider anything else - provided by God as well - as something that can and does contribute to honest learning. They are generally very narrow-minded in their thinking and their actions. And certainly have tunnel vision and can not see the woods for the trees. 

Might I remind you that it WAS the religious zealots and the politicians that put Christ to death we are told. They DEMANDED His death. Remember that.

Not trying to be disrespectful to you but do you really hold yourself "so high" as to consider yourself as "Archangel"? 

John H.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 22, 2005)

i read the book in its entirety and i disagree with it's conclusions.  and my library is much more extensive than the bible. how about them apples john. your arguements are tired and useless.  it is not a rebuttle to say " REAL men who READ this BOOK COMPLETLY will agree with me, or the are just religious zealouts who are a waste of time." that doesnt prove anything john. 

by the way i have asked 2 friends who are psychology majors at 2 different universities if any of dr kinseys work is used as reference material in any of their classes. one said the name was mentioned only briefly and the other said yes, but the professor explained the work was controversial and much of it has been turned out to be false.

basically john you need to get updated on your work. dr kinsey is now regarded in modern psychology as viewing the world as flat


----------



## crazy_enough (Apr 22, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> i read the book in its entirety and i disagree with it's conclusions. and my library is much more extensive than the bible. how about them apples john. your arguements are tired and useless. it is not a rebuttle to say " REAL men who READ this BOOK COMPLETLY will agree with me, or the are just religious zealouts who are a waste of time." that doesnt prove anything john.
> 
> by the way i have asked 2 friends who are psychology majors at 2 different universities if any of dr kinseys work is used as reference material in any of their classes. one said the name was mentioned only briefly and the other said yes, but the professor explained the work was controversial and much of it has been turned out to be false.
> 
> basically john you need to get updated on your work. dr kinsey is now regarded in modern psychology as viewing the world as flat


----------



## WilliamB (Apr 22, 2005)

devildog88 said:
			
		

> You are so full of shit you stink! The first rule is never speak of the confirms! You are a fake Son!


I didnt think it was against the rules to talk about confirms


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 22, 2005)

thanks crazy.  its funny how john has the ability to unite those who on most occasions would be on opposite ends of the spectrum.  im a pretty strong believer in God, and you dont feel the same way, and yet we find common ground in regards to john. truthfully he brings the world closer together by finding a common enemy. himself. now if he could only unite christians and muslims.


----------



## crazy_enough (Apr 22, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> thanks crazy. its funny how john has the ability to unite those who on most occasions would be on opposite ends of the spectrum. im a pretty strong believer in God, and you dont feel the same way, and yet we find common ground in regards to john. truthfully he brings the world closer together by finding a common enemy. himself. now if he could only unite christians and muslims.


John is John, and as long as he belongs to this community, he will be just that, John!! When I first joined IM, I was almost compelled to root for the guy, like an obligation to "defend" fellow "sexualy challenged" individuals! I quickly realized that even his sexual "prouesse" with men are probably imaginary! He manages to get really close to making sense sometimes, but when RELIGION and GOD became the reason for every bad thing that happens in this world, except for the obvious child molestation acts commited during Dr. kinsey's "research", I gave up!! lol

When it comes right down to it, while religion may play an important role in your life, it does not define your entire caracter, and I beleive that aside from our religious, and perhaps, sexual beleifs, our basic values tend to go in the same direction!! No god or lord guides my journey, but in the end, I aim to do my best to live a full, productive, fulfilling life, I have no interest in hurting/causing harm to others and do have morals and ethics in my life.

All this to say : Dont give john H too much credit... Open minds and human nature deserve a lot more praise! 


























ok, now the weekend has begun, so I shall make no further intelligent comments, such as the one above!


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 22, 2005)

point taken. have fun over the weekend


----------



## King Silverback (Apr 22, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> I DO NOT CONDONE the abuse of anyone - ESPECIALLY CHILDREN - in any form. . I never said I did and anyone that actually knows me personally KNOWS what I feel about it, etc. Having said that,  Dr. Kinsey and his Associates DID NOT abuse anyone at any time. You would not KNOW that yourself because of your lack of what actually DID happen and the why behind it. And you do not see the importance of the totality of the work done.


Your the one who can't see the forest through the trees John, what could possibly be important about the sexual ABUSE of CHILDREN??? Only a sick. ignorant moron would even care about ANYTHING sexual with a CHILD!!! Do you UNDERSTAND? Even if you don't, I don't care, your obviously not stable  



			
				John H. said:
			
		

> Not trying to be disrespectful to you but do you really hold yourself "so high" as to consider yourself as "Archangel"?
> John H.


No, I do not hold myself so high, it is a way of showing my respect, something I would like to be able to live up to and one day, IF I ever come face to face with GOD, I can honestly say, I  looked up to you and your Son Jesus, and tried to be the best person I could be!!!
Figures you would try to turn it on me


----------



## John H. (Apr 23, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> i read the book in its entirety and i disagree with it's conclusions.  and my library is much more extensive than the bible. how about them apples john. your arguements are tired and useless.  it is not a rebuttle to say " REAL men who READ this BOOK COMPLETLY will agree with me, or the are just religious zealouts who are a waste of time." that doesnt prove anything john.
> 
> by the way i have asked 2 friends who are psychology majors at 2 different universities if any of dr kinseys work is used as reference material in any of their classes. one said the name was mentioned only briefly and the other said yes, but the professor explained the work was controversial and much of it has been turned out to be false.
> 
> basically john you need to get updated on your work. dr kinsey is now regarded in modern psychology as viewing the world as flat



Bio,

Did you read SEXUAL BEHAVIOR IN THE HUMAN FEMALE? Why not? DR. KINSEY AND THE INSTITUTE FOR SEX RESEARCH by Wardell Pomeroy? SEX - THE MEASURE OF ALL THINGS, by Jonathan Gaithorne-Hardy? Etc. How many bibliographies of books you read have you checked out to see how OFTEN Dr. Kinsey's works ARE CITED as sources? Books that would have utilized his research in their various subject areas. Are you aware that Dr. Kinsey's work QUESTIONED the findings and conclusions  of Psychologists and Psychiatrists? And backed his research up with FACTS that HAVE stood the test of time. Why did the American Pschological Association remove Homosexuality from their list of diseases? A book a friend of mine is using in his course work in psychology at college (I can't remember the title right now because I only saw if briefly in his home while talking to him about other things and I just glanced in the biblioigraphy and Dr. Kinsey's works were cited in it and the book was published in 2005...) Try doing that with any book on a subject that concerns this topic and look at the bibliography of each book and see how many times Dr. Kinsey is cited as a source for information. You will find he is cited A LOT even to this day. 

The "professor" you mention - was he from a religious college? I would expect a professor from such an institution to say what you have said "he said". Some religious people damn Dr. Kinsey and his work, you for one. And most never even opened either of the books he and his Associates researched and wrote. Criticism received WAS from mainly people who never even actually read either book or any subsequent publications. There "religions" damned those books and told their people not to read them. And they didn't and followed "what they were told to do" instead of READING the books themselves and drawing their OWN conclusions OBJECTIVELY.

Go to www.apa.org (The American Psychological Association Official website) and where provided ("Search" section at the upper left) type in "homosexuality" or "bisexuality" or "sexual orientation" and see what information they provide and from what sources.

John H.


----------



## njc (Apr 23, 2005)

Who gives a fuck about Kinsey?  Follow Jesus.  Read his word.  Such a genius.  If everyone were to live like him there would be paradise here on earth.


----------



## King Silverback (Apr 23, 2005)

njc said:
			
		

> Who gives a fuck about Kinsey?  Follow Jesus.  Read his word.  Such a genius.  If everyone were to live like him there would be paradise here on earth.


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 23, 2005)

i didnt find any value in kinseys first book, why would i  waste my time reading a second book?  like i said i have an extensive library and i have better books to read.

the universities i mentioned. university of washington and washington state university.   not really religious universities, nice try.  john your arguements for kinsey are tired and boring. you mention the same stuff over and over, and even though it is refuted on multiple occasions you repeat it like it should change something.


----------



## John H. (Apr 25, 2005)

Maynard Keenan said:
			
		

> I see theres more proof of satan in this world then god.  Although I do believe there is a god or creator of this world.  Or maybe god and satan are the same.  This world could just be for amusement for god.  I believe this world is getting more evil every day.



Hi Maynard,

This world IS getting more evil everyday. And it seems to come from people who are "religious".

You might have a point about God and satan are the same and this world being for amusement... Who really knows. I do know from what I have read that God only appeared so we are told ONLY ONE TIME and ONLY TO ONE MAN - Moses - when God gave Him the Ten Commandments. Given where this happened (the Middle East) where there is a lot of heat, humidity, sand blowing everywhere and in everything and low employment with people that have a lot of time on their hands and seem to always be "seeing visions" I TRULY HAVE MY DOUBTS. This world is MILLIONS of years old at the very least as nearly as can be determined by Science. I find it incredible that God would only appear ONE TIME and HIMSELF never have anything else to say. For someone who is supposed to BE ALL powerful, ALL knowing, ALL loving, Our Father, etc. it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE for someone that powerful to create a world SO DAMN SCREWED UP and HAS BEEN for ALL OF RECORDED TIME and NOTHING HAS REALLY IMPROVED. And "religion" and politics have always BEEN and ARE at the bottom of the problems of the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Take Care, John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 25, 2005)

njc said:
			
		

> Who gives a fuck about Kinsey?  Follow Jesus.  Read his word.  Such a genius.  If everyone were to live like him there would be paradise here on earth.




Hi njc,

Well maybe not. Remember it was the religious zealots and politicians WHO MURDERED Him we are told. And I see NO IMPROVEMENT since that happened. Things are the same.

If I had it in my power to ELIMINATE something from this earth it would be these three things:

1) Abuse of children. Abuse of anyone really.

2) Politics.

3) "Religion".

I feel these are the most DANGEROUS and I'd like to see a world without these and see how much better this world would be. God, we are told, did NOT want people to "worship" Him or Honor Him but to TREAT OTHERS WELL - FIRST AND FOREMOST - ALL OTHERS yet that has NEVER happened when you consider all that happened and happens in the world since we were told that. And no one seems to follow what we are told HE SAID TO DO!!!!!

Take Care, John H.

Take Care, John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 25, 2005)

Archangel said:
			
		

>


 
Archangel: 

I see YOU DO NOT FOLLOW what God is said to have said about how to treat ALL OTHER PEOPLE. Yet you call yourself "archangel"...

John H.


----------



## John H. (Apr 25, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> i didnt find any value in kinseys first book, why would i  waste my time reading a second book?  like i said i have an extensive library and i have better books to read.
> 
> the universities i mentioned. university of washington and washington state university.   not really religious universities, nice try.  john your arguements for kinsey are tired and boring. you mention the same stuff over and over, and even though it is refuted on multiple occasions you repeat it like it should change something.




Bio:

You could not tell the truth if you life depended on it!

I HIGHLY DOUBT you read anything with an oobjectivity and an open mind. And for you to criticize someone when you actually have never read what they had to say is just like a "religious zealot".

Did you bother to go to www.apa.org the American Psychological Association is SEE and READ what they have to say about Heterosexuality, BiSexuality and Homosexuality? Go to the source. See what they had to say about Dr. Kinsey.

You keep exposing who you REALLY ARE with every word. NAROW-MINDED and BIGOTED and BIASED and NOT OBJECTIVE about anything. And CAN NOT DISCUSS anything AS A MATURE MAN. You are completely wasting your time in college. And in your life. You OWN statements PROVE THAT.

Stop "beating your religious chest" as if to try to prove to others how "saintly" you think you are. Your deeds speak louder that your false words.

John H.


----------



## gococksDJS (Apr 25, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Bio:
> 
> You could not tell the truth if you life depended on it!
> 
> ...


 John H, you bigot!!!! Stop "beating your homosexual chest" as if trying to prove your frame of mind is normal. You zealot bastard bigot narrow minded heterophobic nutbag. God will smite you...


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 25, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Bio:
> 
> You could not tell the truth if you life depended on it!
> 
> ...


so by attacking me you hope to draw attention away from the fact kinseys work is outdated. if the things you say about me are true then the rest of the board will obviously be able to discern for themselves. yet it doesnt change the fact that your unable to defend kinsey. whether you believe it or no john i read the book. it sucked. 

you said i should go to the source, isnt that what i did when i read kinseys book? now i have to go to some website so i can go to the source?  john this isnt a topic i really care to spend my time reading about. i read the book so there would be another person on this board who could give an opinion on it other than you. if your really so open-minded, accept he fact people do not always agree with you and that isnt a bad thing. i think you need to go to a psychologist to help you talk through some of your issues


----------



## bio-chem (Apr 25, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Bio:
> 
> You could not tell the truth if you life depended on it!
> 
> ...


and because everyone makes mistakes while typing i think you should stop trying to correct people, or making broad statements about their education for something so small.


----------



## njc (Apr 25, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Hi njc,
> 
> Well maybe not. Remember it was the religious zealots and politicians WHO MURDERED Him we are told. And I see NO IMPROVEMENT since that happened. Things are the same.
> 
> ...


Thats my point exactely, people dont listen, therefore murders and death do occur, therefore paradise does not occur. Just becuase people arent living his word doesnt mean that if they were the world would be the same. Is that what youre trying to say? That doesnt make sense. 

And it doesnt make sense to wish away relegion. It does many wonderful things for many people. Instead why not wish away the morons who confuse its real message or maybe even twist and abuse it to help themselves and maybe even to harm others.
\
Take care as well.


----------



## Newt (Apr 25, 2005)

Even scientist have recently started to debunk the thought of a bid bang.  All science shows that something can not possibly come from nothing i.e. the "Big Bang".  Even if you don't believe in a Christian God as I do, you have to believe that there is a greater power that much larger that anything science could possibly prove.  If there was nothing to bang then where did the big bang come from?


----------



## King Silverback (Apr 25, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Archangel:
> 
> I see YOU DO NOT FOLLOW what God is said to have said about how to treat ALL OTHER PEOPLE. Yet you call yourself "archangel"...
> 
> John H.


Listen nutcase, I described earlier the reason for "Archangel" I know I'm no where near perfect. I can only do the best humanly possible for myself. But you would test the patience of a Saint, so for now, I will step outta my trying to be a good person, much less a good Christian, and I will say this to you...............



Take care


----------



## gococksDJS (Apr 25, 2005)

Archangel said:
			
		

> Listen nutcase, I described earlier the reason for "Archangel" I know I'm no where near perfect. I can only do the best humanly possible for myself. But you would test the patience of a Saint, so for now, I will step outta my trying to be a good person, much less a good Christian, and I will say this to you...............
> 
> 
> 
> Take care


 Your a Christian? ZEALOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!BIGOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Down with your close minded views, you don't TRULY live life.


----------



## John H. (Apr 26, 2005)

Archangel said:
			
		

> Listen nutcase, I described earlier the reason for "Archangel" I know I'm no where near perfect. I can only do the best humanly possible for myself. But you would test the patience of a Saint, so for now, I will step outta my trying to be a good person, much less a good Christian, and I will say this to you...............
> 
> 
> 
> Take care




Archangel,

NOW I have more respect for you - you TOLD the TRUTH and ARE who you ARE instead of having others think you are someone else. I like knowing where someone is "coming from". Sometimes it IS necessary to "flush a person out" to find out WHO they REALLY ARE...

In my book THAT IS an IMPROVEMENT. I LIKE people who are HONEST AND SINCERE. And at least TRY to do their very best and for the benefit of all NOT just themselves.

John H.


----------



## King Silverback (Apr 26, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> Your a Christian? ZEALOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!BIGOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Down with your close minded views, you don't TRULY live life.


Not sure if your joking or not, however I live my life to the fullest I can possibly acheive!!! All still by living by principle and common sense!!!


----------



## King Silverback (Apr 26, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Archangel,
> 
> NOW I have more respect for you - you TOLD the TRUTH and ARE who you ARE instead of having others think you are someone else. I like knowing where someone is "coming from". Sometimes it IS necessary to "flush a person out" to find out WHO they REALLY ARE...
> 
> ...


Not sure what you mean by finding out who I really am. I AM a honest Christian with faults just like everbody else!!! Believe me, there was no flushing out as you put it!!! I simply let my anger get the best of me. Something that does not happen often.


----------



## Eggs (Apr 26, 2005)

Archangel said:
			
		

> Not sure if your joking or not, however I live my life to the fullest I can possibly acheive!!! All still by living by principle and common sense!!!



He's joking.  As you can see previously, he was supporting your side of the agreement.


----------



## King Silverback (Apr 26, 2005)

Sorry, that darn John H. character had me in a state of Rage. Some people, ya know?!!


----------



## SuperFlex (Apr 26, 2005)

Yes without question God is the realest of the real! I just wish He believed in me a little more...


----------



## King Silverback (Apr 26, 2005)

bkc said:
			
		

> Yes without question God is the realest of the real! I just wish He believed in me a little more...


He does Brother, that I promise you!!!


----------



## gococksDJS (Apr 26, 2005)

Archangel said:
			
		

> Not sure if your joking or not, however I live my life to the fullest I can possibly acheive!!! All still by living by principle and common sense!!!


 I was joking, I was mimicking John H.


----------



## King Silverback (Apr 27, 2005)

gococksDJS said:
			
		

> I was joking, I was mimicking John H.


I aplogize, I should've known!!! He just gets under my skin so much, ya know!!!


----------



## John H. (Apr 28, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> so by attacking me you hope to draw attention away from the fact kinseys work is outdated. if the things you say about me are true then the rest of the board will obviously be able to discern for themselves. yet it doesnt change the fact that your unable to defend kinsey. whether you believe it or no john i read the book. it sucked.
> 
> you said i should go to the source, isnt that what i did when i read kinseys book? now i have to go to some website so i can go to the source?  john this isnt a topic i really care to spend my time reading about. i read the book so there would be another person on this board who could give an opinion on it other than you. if your really so open-minded, accept he fact people do not always agree with you and that isnt a bad thing. i think you need to go to a psychologist to help you talk through some of your issues



Bio:

You say yourself you have not read both books written. How can you criticize with any accuracy much of anything when you do not have all the facts first and objectively obtained?

If you think I am "attacking" you ... all I am doing is responding to what you ARE doing. You can not hold a conversation as a mature adult with someone. And you "depend on others for your support" instead of standing up for yourself and utilizing the education you say you are seeking for the betterment of all people not just the "chosen"...

Dr. Kinsey's work is not outdated. In fact it has been proven over and over and over again to be right on basically even today. Look at the others who came after Dr. Kinsey and his Associates and what they have to say about that work. The work is cited over and over and over again because of its truthfulness and accuracy. No one is perfect and people who are Human Beings do make mistakes but Dr. Kinsey and his Associates KNEW they would be under extreme scrutiny so they tried their very best to do their work beyond reproach and as I have said before did a tremendous job especially given their circumstances. It has been said there may never again be someone that will DO as damn good a job on the subject or as thorough especially given the circumstances under which the work had to be done. 

As for you, your actions, your words, your methods speak for themselves. It is you who have been attacking and wanting validation from others. I present the facts and let the facts speak for themselves. Or present where the facts can be obtained for those interested. Whether someone likes me personally or not is not at all material to the subject at hand. The subject can and does speak for itself and the work done to answer honest questions honestly and accurately has been done basically by Dr. Kinsey and his Associates. Anyone will have their detractors - those who disagree - Dr. Kinsey and his Associates had theirs as does anyone especially given the topic was Human Sexuality. The proof is in the work DONE. And it was done well and has stood the test of time - and yes, it does disagree with what "religious zealots" would want others to "believe happens" and "believe is 'right'" - that is NOT based on the facts as they are or as intended by Nature. That IS why you and like-minded people are so upset - it QUESTIONS WITH FACTS to back it up what you and others like you would force others to "believe" and just because "you said it" NOT because what you say is based ON FACTS. AS THEY ACTUALLY ARE.

Given your  demonstated "abilities" in writing  and speaking as a self-professed college student I doubt you read much of anything objectively and/or can comprehend what you read. I base this on your statements your words. Your tone indicates your bigotry and bias. BEFOREHAND. 

John H.


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## Shae (Apr 28, 2005)

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/magic/manillus.html

It also works if you tilt your head and close your eyes for this trick.


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## bio-chem (Apr 28, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Bio:
> 
> You say yourself you have not read both books written. How can you criticize with any accuracy much of anything when you do not have all the facts first and objectively obtained?
> 
> ...


   
can you roll over and do tricks too?  john this is the same stuff over and over again. when are you going to really address the question. i dont have to read both books to have all the information. just like i dont have to read every paper from einstien to discuss his  involvement in the making of the atomic bomb.  i have given multiple examples of how kinseys stuff is outdated and you come back with "no its not", but dont give ay backing as to why.  when you become something other than kinseys lap dog, then we can talk. otherwise conversing with you is a waste of time.


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## King Silverback (Apr 28, 2005)

John H. Please explain to me this............. I just read the entire thread about The Passion Of The Christ, and you posted in there about we should be taking better care of "The Children" Because they cannot, I repeat CANNOT take care of themselves. You say that and yet you support, and support diligently a psycho sick ignorant peice of trash such as Kinsey!!! Yeah, I get it, lets support a guy who wants to know about sexual contact with an infant!!! What a WHACKO!!! Your posts are very contradictory from one thread to another, and you say that I am not being true, and that I hold myself so high? I took the Nickname "Archangel" as a profession of my Faith, and my desire to be like him in the eyes of GOD!!! THAT is NOT holding myself so high!!! You have officially entered the "Sick and Perverse" Zone!!!
Thank you, take care, and may the Good Lord do with you as HE see's fit!!!


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## maniclion (Apr 28, 2005)

I'll believe in god if he makes this thread disappear.  Even if I have to call him Robert Dimaggio.


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## busyLivin (Apr 28, 2005)

maniclion said:
			
		

> I'll believe in god if he makes this thread disappear.  Even if I have to call him Robert Dimaggio.


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## Newt (Apr 28, 2005)

John H., do you even lift weights?  I mean free weights, machines, etc., not just Dr. Kinsey's balls!  I understand that this is open chat but I've never heard you even talking about lifting!


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## John H. (Apr 29, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> can you roll over and do tricks too?  john this is the same stuff over and over again. when are you going to really address the question. i dont have to read both books to have all the information. just like i dont have to read every paper from einstien to discuss his  involvement in the making of the atomic bomb.  i have given multiple examples of how kinseys stuff is outdated and you come back with "no its not", but dont give ay backing as to why.  when you become something other than kinseys lap dog, then we can talk. otherwise conversing with you is a waste of time.



Bio:

Based on your responses to what anyone says I think anyone with half a brain can come to these conclusions: as a "college student" you can not read, you can not write, and you do not comprehend much of anything. All you do is "create" your own little world. And wallow in it and look for others to validate. And you try to speak for others when it is others that can and should speak for themselves. You are very narrow-minded, bigoted, bias, combative and as a "christian" express like many others do your hatred but "hide" under a cloak of "righteousness" and "self-purity". By your own admission you consider ONLY what YOU want to consider and do NOT LOOK at much of anything with an open mind and certainly you are not at all objective by any stretch of the imagination. Like I said before, you are wasting the time of those who are paid to teach you and you are wasting your time learning - you do not really learn much of anything. Your extreme narrow-mindedness and tunnel vision which you created within yourself is why - probably to have some "place" to "hide" from reality.

You as a self-professed "christian" miss the one point God wanted all people to pay real close attention to: NOT to worship God but to treat ALL OTHERS properly and well FIRST. You are drowning in your own "self-proclaimed" "religion" which you create.

There is NO "conversing" with you as a mature adult. You could not hold a conversation as a mature adult if you tried. You like your own little world.

John H.


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## John H. (Apr 29, 2005)

Archangel said:
			
		

> John H. Please explain to me this............. I just read the entire thread about The Passion Of The Christ, and you posted in there about we should be taking better care of "The Children" Because they cannot, I repeat CANNOT take care of themselves. You say that and yet you support, and support diligently a psycho sick ignorant peice of trash such as Kinsey!!! Yeah, I get it, lets support a guy who wants to know about sexual contact with an infant!!! What a WHACKO!!! Your posts are very contradictory from one thread to another, and you say that I am not being true, and that I hold myself so high? I took the Nickname "Archangel" as a profession of my Faith, and my desire to be like him in the eyes of GOD!!! THAT is NOT holding myself so high!!! You have officially entered the "Sick and Perverse" Zone!!!
> Thank you, take care, and may the Good Lord do with you as HE see's fit!!!



Archangel,

I ABHORE the abuse of anyone especially children!!!

Dr. Kinsey and his Associates were NEVER as you describe. You are just trying to "promote" what you have been told by others who like you have gone off the deep end with regard to your "religion" and "religious beliefs" and never really checked into the work as actually done by those researchers and the purposes behind such research. Dr. Kinsey and his Associates and all those that followed have never abused anyone. You are trying to defame and damn them because the work they did QUESTIONS "religion" and "religious teachings" which are completely man-made. So you would want to go for "the throat" of these Scientists because they show "religion" for what it has become. Worthless. And UNtruthful. And VERY FAR from what God has actually said. 

People who are good truthfully and do their very best do not advertise it. They do not issue "self-proclamations" about themselves. Their actions speak for themselves. And others with vision will see them for what they truly are or not.

John H.


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## John H. (Apr 29, 2005)

maniclion said:
			
		

> I'll believe in god if he makes this thread disappear.  Even if I have to call him Robert Dimaggio.



Hi Maniclion,

Actually making threads like this allow "christians" to display who they are. And eventually they do show who they truly are. It is very important for all to see where others are coming from truthfully. Unencumbered. 

Every time one of these threads comes up they come out of the woodwork. The haters and the bigots who self-proclaim how "deeply religious and pure" they want others to believe they are. And the hatred and the bigotry which they all try to deny lives very deeply inside them and yet call themselves "christian"... This country (USA) is fast becoming like the Middle East with regard to "religion". No wonder the rest of the world looks on the USA as if it is loosing or has lost completely its mind. 

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Apr 29, 2005)

Newt said:
			
		

> John H., do you even lift weights?  I mean free weights, machines, etc., not just Dr. Kinsey's balls!  I understand that this is open chat but I've never heard you even talking about lifting!



Newt (as in Gingrich),

ABSOLUTELY and EVERY DAY I do some aspect of Bodybuilding. Those that know me personally KNOW THAT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE. And SEE the results.

You apparently read only what you want. I have and will speak about weight lifting and bodybuilding. It IS a person's foundation that all else DEPENDS ON completely. A person's TOTAL HEALTH is VITALLY IMPORTANT!!!!

John H.


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## devildog88 (Apr 29, 2005)

John,

Why don't you post some pictures?  It took me a while but I figured it out.  I am a tech retard!


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## John H. (Apr 29, 2005)

devildog88 said:
			
		

> John,
> 
> Why don't you post some pictures?  It took me a while but I figured it out.  I am a tech retard!



Hi Devil,

I am a BiSexual Man (by way of explanation, I care for and love Men and Women - Human Beings - I do NOT think a person's Gender is so damn important but that a person HONESTLY CARE about another) so because of the hatred that exists with some and for the welfare of my family and friends I will not. 

I have on the thread  "Which Bodybuilder would you be" (posted by Rock on 4-22-2005) had posted with the help of Rock a photo of a Man - Nick Auger - that is VERY close to what I look like - TRUTHFULLY. VERY CLOSE!! I am trying to find another photo of someone else who is EXTREMELY CLOSE to what I am like bodywise - his name is (as stated on the website www.t-mag.com) "Reverse" but I can not bring that photo up for some reason - I am not a computer wiz like Rockgazier. "Reverse" Guys that KNOW ME SAY is RIGHT ON with regard to what I actually look like. I do not think that myself (I guess we each see ourselves in a different light) so I go by what others that KNOW me say...

Take Care, John H.


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## Sandra (Apr 29, 2005)

Do you belive in God?  Yes.  I understand how hard it can be to believe in something that is beyond imagination.  To me being a Christian has never been about religion, its been about a relationship.  It is always hard to believe before seeing, but thats why it is called Faith.  God is love and love is real and I personally dont need hard evidence to believe in God, He has blessed me and shown me truths that I never thought would be possible, atleast until i decided to simply believe in Him.  Just thought Id reply to the subject line of the thread 

Jesus told him, I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one can come to the Father except through me.  -John 14:6


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## westb51 (Apr 29, 2005)

yes


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## bio-chem (Apr 29, 2005)

john you bore me


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## Vieope (Apr 29, 2005)

_God sucks. _


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## King Silverback (Apr 29, 2005)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _God sucks. _


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## King Silverback (Apr 29, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Archangel,
> 
> I ABHORE the abuse of anyone especially children!!!
> 
> ...


I'm done, you talk in circles so much it makes my head hurt!!! You obviously do not understand "Common Sense"!!! Religion isn't the only thing I use to know that "Child abuse" is wrong, no matter in what shape or form!!! I use Intelligence!!! You can't tell me you would support Kinsey if you found out he used one of or all your children in his study.Come on Man, think about it, you KNOW he's a friggen sick pervert who deserves no support or recognition, just what ever the Good Lord has in store for him.
That is all, 
Angel has left the building,
Thank you and Good night!!!


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## WATTS (Apr 30, 2005)

i believe god was made up to make people feel better about having to eventually die, and have people believe that there is an afterlife....all i know is that im ganna make some damn good furtilizer when i die!


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## JordanMang (Apr 30, 2005)

Religion is the manner in which you whorship God. I am perosnally a Christian. Their is no argument as to proof of a God. Why? Everything that has ever happened or ever will is a reaction to an action and action to a reaction. You trace every action and reaction back to the first action this is an action unaffected by any other means - it is the FIRST action and what could have made this action other then an omnipotent being?


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## god hand (Jun 1, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Hi Devil,
> 
> I am a BiSexual Man (by way of explanation, I care for and love Men and Women - Human Beings - I do NOT think a person's Gender is so damn important but that a person HONESTLY CARE about another) so because of the hatred that exists with some and for the welfare of my family and friends I will not.
> 
> ...



..................HOMO..........


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## John H. (Jun 2, 2005)

WATTS said:
			
		

> i believe god was made up to make people feel better about having to eventually die, and have people believe that there is an afterlife....all i know is that im ganna make some damn good furtilizer when i die!




Hi Watts,

I think people come back as something else maybe besides a Human Being.

In Nature everything that dies DOES come back as something else. An animal that dies and decomposes has life as something else or causes other life to be so....

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Jun 2, 2005)

JordanMang said:
			
		

> Religion is the manner in which you whorship God. I am perosnally a Christian. Their is no argument as to proof of a God. Why? Everything that has ever happened or ever will is a reaction to an action and action to a reaction. You trace every action and reaction back to the first action this is an action unaffected by any other means - it is the FIRST action and what could have made this action other then an omnipotent being?



Hi Jordan,

Religion IS man-made. Period.

And I think it has been made to be very complicated and never should be or have been. It has become like a smoke-screen to prevent the truth from actually being known in some way.

Religion has no reason to "celebrate" in my opinion based on their history and present practices as well.

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Jun 2, 2005)

god hand said:
			
		

> ..................HOMO..........



god hand,

Even by the name you use here it expresses your zealotry and insanity with religion. And your "christian" hatred...

Hate and damn and be as narrow-minded all you want - I just wonder how you will answer to God - the REAL One, not the one you and others like you pretend exists...

John H.


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## bio-chem (Jun 2, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Hi Jordan,
> 
> 
> Religion has no reason to "celebrate" in my opinion based on their history and present practices as well.
> ...


 its a good thing your opinion has the same value as a hand full of horse crap.


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## Eggs (Jun 2, 2005)

I dont believe in a God personally...

but on the other hand, I will definitely say that athiests in general are the most closed minded and religious of anybody.


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## John H. (Jun 2, 2005)

bio-chem said:
			
		

> its a good thing your opinion has the same value as a hand full of horse crap.




Bio,

I wondered if I woke you up...

John H.


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## John H. (Jun 2, 2005)

Eggs said:
			
		

> I dont believe in a God personally...
> 
> but on the other hand, I will definitely say that athiests in general are the most closed minded and religious of anybody.




Hi Eggs,

I believe in God - or at least a Great Spirit or Creator. NOT the one "christians" associate with and I HIGHLY DOUBT GOD HIMSELF does either given the past history and present practices of most religions not just "christianity".

We are told that the only time God actually appeared to man was to Moses and that God's wish and command was that no one worship Him but that all people treat each other well and nothing more. If that were done especially by "religion" and "religious types" there would be no problems in this world which RELIGION IS RESPONSIBLE FOR TOTALLY!!!

Take Care, John H.


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## Eggs (Jun 2, 2005)

John H. said:
			
		

> Hi Eggs,
> 
> I believe in God - or at least a Great Spirit or Creator. NOT the one "christians" associate with and I HIGHLY DOUBT GOD HIMSELF does either given the past history and present practices of most religions not just "christianity".



Trying to argue the presence of a God or the lack thereof would be circuitous and prone to arguments based on belief, and not on proof. By both those that believe and those that do not.



> We are told that the only time God actually appeared to man was to Moses and that God's wish and command was that no one worship Him but that all people treat each other well and nothing more. If that were done especially by "religion" and "religious types" there would be no problems in this world which RELIGION IS RESPONSIBLE FOR TOTALLY!!!
> 
> Take Care, John H.



If I remember correctly, Jesus appeared to man and he was a God. Of course, I also recall that he wasn't running around telling people to worship him. That said, he did pray to his "father in heaven".

If everybody, religious or not, followed the Golden Rule then indeed there wouldn't be much war, etc. The problem with saying the "religious", is that people would find another way to live out their hate. Which is something that everybody does in their own way.


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