# Too many pills??



## suprfast (Oct 31, 2009)

I feel like a druggie pill popper every morning.  Am i taking too much, or does it not matter.  Popping pills(in terms of real vitamins/minerals/etc) is easy so i dont mind if i needed to "pop" more to make sure i have all my bases covered

Currently my pill jar daily includes:

2 x daily vitamin
8 x fish oil (total of 3000mg/3g of EPA/DHA)
1 x 200mg Caffeine(stay awake/no doze)
1 x bronkaid (25mg ephedrine sulfate, with a chases of 400mg of Guaifenesin)
1 x B12(sublingual, only one i dont swallow[let the jokes begin])
4 x vitamin c (2g total), also has some wide rose hips and citrus bioflavonoids.  whatever these are.

Now that you see my medicine cabinet, am i taking too much stuff?  just fine?  anything you recommend i add/delete?  Im open to criticism.  I take everything in about 10 seconds first thing in the morning.

I also take creatine, but thats aside from all this morning remedy stuff.
Kris


----------



## PushAndPull (Oct 31, 2009)

I take it these are not the recommended doses?


----------



## suprfast (Oct 31, 2009)

Sure they are.  all of them actually.

vitamin world multi vitamins recommend 2
naturals fish oil is 1200mg per pill(but only 375mg of dha/epa per pill so 8x375=3000)
caffeine and ephedrine combo is 10:1ratio(close enough)
b12 is one a day
vitamin C is 1-4 daily(i chose to go with 4)

Im within the daily, im just wondering if there is anything else i should add to cover my bases or if im covering too many bases at the same time.
kris


----------



## PushAndPull (Oct 31, 2009)

Let start with the multi. If it says take two then I would.
As far as the fish oil goes, if you can stomach it, then I see no harm in it. I personally only can stomach three a day. Regardless of the amount you are taking you should split them up throughout the day, i'm surprised it doesn't say to do so.
For the b-12, i'd personally take a b-complex instead and definitely take it at a differnt time then taking the multi as it already has a b-complex(which has b-12) and only so much can be absorbed at one time.
The vitamin C should also be split up throughout the day for the same reasons as the B.
As far as the ephedrine goes, I simply recommend you don't take it.


----------



## Marat (Oct 31, 2009)

It all looks fine.


----------



## PushAndPull (Oct 31, 2009)

Glucosamine,Chondroitin, & MSM would also be a worthy addition to your pillfest-lol-


----------



## suprfast (Oct 31, 2009)

I didnt think i was too far fetched.  I get weird eyes when people see my medicine case, they figure i have an incurable disease or something.

Id like to split it up, but id forget to take it.  First thing in the morning is easy.  I can stomach anything, now where are the habaneros.
kris


----------



## Built (Oct 31, 2009)

PushAndPull said:


> Let start with the multi. If it says take two then I would.
> As far as the fish oil goes, if you can stomach it, then I see no harm in it. I personally only can stomach three a day.



It's not enough. Three standard 1000mg caps won't even give you a gram of EPA/DHA. Ten caps will give you 3 grams of combined EPA/DHA. I take this daily. 


PushAndPull said:


> Regardless of the amount you are taking you should split them up throughout the day,


This is interesting, and I don't necessarily disagree, but I'd like to know your reasoning. 



PushAndPull said:


> i'm surprised it doesn't say to do so.
> For the b-12, i'd personally take a b-complex instead and definitely take it at a differnt time then taking the multi as it already has a b-complex(which has b-12) and only so much can be absorbed at one time.


B-12 often isn't particularly well-absorbed orally. That's why he's taking it as a sublingual - to bypass digestion. 



PushAndPull said:


> The vitamin C should also be split up throughout the day for the same reasons as the B.



Although if you're on certain medications, such as synthroid, you want to take it separated a few hours from when you take vitamin C.


PushAndPull said:


> As far as the ephedrine goes, I simply recommend you don't take it.



Why not? Ephedrine caffeine is an excellent cutter.


----------



## suprfast (Oct 31, 2009)

Thanks built.  You teachings have done me well so far.  Do you think i need to add/subtract anything.  Interested more with the adding, if there is anything critical that would help.  Ecstasy, Viagra.. 
kris


----------



## Built (Nov 1, 2009)

Viagra does a stiffie good. ™

What to add... hmmmm... if your multi has a little vitamin E it'll help you metabolize the fish oil. Perhaps selenium and vitamin D. Also if you find it doesn't give you intolerably weird dreams, melatonin's a good one. I take 9mg at bedtime. Antioxidant and I seem to recall it having some antiestrogen effects.


----------



## PushAndPull (Nov 1, 2009)

I've read and it's recommended that for maximum absorption fish oil doses should be split up. I've tried taking more than one at a time and never noticed a difference, then again I never notice anything from the fish oil unless I take alot, then I get tons of gas.




			
				Built said:
			
		

> B-12 often isn't particularly well-absorbed orally. That's why he's taking it as a sublingual - to bypass digestion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ephedrine is addictive.


----------



## suprfast (Nov 1, 2009)

PushAndPull said:


> I've read and it's recommended that for maximum absorption fish oil doses should be split up. I've tried taking more than one at a time and never noticed a difference, then again I never notice anything from the fish oil unless I take alot, then I get tons of gas.






			
				Built said:
			
		

> B-12 often isn't particularly well-absorbed orally. That's why he's taking it as a sublingual - to bypass digestion.
> 
> 
> 
> Although if you're on certain medications, such as synthroid, you want to take it separated a few hours from when you take vitamin C.





PushAndPull said:


> Vitamin C and B's are water soluble so for the most part you body takes what it needs and then you pee out the rest. So later on in the day you could still not be at optimum levels, taking it throughout the day solves this problem. Overloading at one time only insures more colorful pee.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I cant agree with that last statement.  I was on if for six weeks straight then took a week off when i ran out, and cycled it off.  Not once did i feel myself NEEDING it.  If anything is addictive i would say its caffeine.  NOW WHERE IS MY COFFEE.  

For the splitting up doses, i have to way the benefits of not doing it.  If i take half now and save the rest for later there is a 45.324% chance i wont take it(crazy mathematicians ).  Once i wake up i start playing DAD, taking kids to school, getting myself to school, picking kids up from school.  I would forget, put it off.  

Built, my multivitamin from vitamin shoppe has 333% or 133IU of vitamin E(im almost out of this one).
In about two weeks i will start using the costco multi which has 200% of 60IU of vitamin E.  Are these enough, or should i pick up a separate vitamin E.  
Does melatonin help with sleep.  Ive never been able to just lay down and just fall asleep.  If this helps, ill invest in stock.  I think i just mixed melatonin with valerian root. 
Ill look into selenium and vitamin D too.  Anything specific or will the costco size containers be fine.  

thanks all
kris


----------



## PushAndPull (Nov 1, 2009)

PushAndPull said:
			
		

> Ephedrine is addictive.





suprfast said:


> I cant agree with that last statement.  I was on if for six weeks straight then took a week off when i ran out, and cycled it off.  Not once did i feel myself NEEDING it.  If anything is addictive i would say its caffeine.  NOW WHERE IS MY COFFEE.
> kris



I would take a crazy guess and say you have been drinking coffee for longer than 6 weeks and don't cycle it. If you take ephedrine for a long time, then you will see a major energy crash when you stop taking it. This is because your body has become dependent on the ephedrine for your energy. That's why I don't recommend it.


----------



## Built (Nov 1, 2009)

I've taken ephedrine for months at a time. No big deal at all when I've gone off - I just reduce the ephedrine while keeping the caffeine the same, then gradually reduce the caffeine. If you haven't noticed, caffeine is very addictive lol - not that there's any real problem with just saying on caffeine indefinitely.

PushAndPull, go to drumlib.com to read up some more on ephedrine. It is a very safe drug, and tremendously beneficial to many. 

suprfast, you'll love melatonin. Take it when you're ready to go to bed - if you don't go straight to bed when it "takes" you, it'll wear off.  Vitamin D I take 3000 IU daily of D3, and cheapy costco brand is fine. Your multi gives you plenty of vitamin E. I just try to get in around 100 IU of vitamin E, you don't need much, just some. 

PushAndPull, please try to use quotes properly so we can see what you're responding to.


----------



## Marat (Nov 1, 2009)

PushAndPull said:


> If you take ephedrine for a long time, then you will see a major energy crash when you stop taking it. *This is because your body has become dependent on the ephedrine for your energy. * That's why I don't recommend it.




Ephedrine does have the ability to become addictive due to its ability to increase dopamine transmission. However, at the doses recommended, addiction is extremely unlikely.  


The bolded statement is simply incorrect. Ephedrine cannot be used (or converted) as an energy source.


----------



## suprfast (Nov 1, 2009)

I actually started drinking coffee maybe once a week.  Not a huge fan of hot drinks, but its getting SUPER COLD in california.  I think today is like 70°

I have been taking caffeine pills for the same time as ephedirine, and never cycled off of it.  I am ADDICTED to iced tea.  I wont lie about that.  I think the reason why i dont care too much about coffee is the sipping portion.  I love to just gulp the liquid in front of me.  Iced tea or water doesnt last long in front of me.  I can easily drink a gallon of tea a day.  I guess i should have said, NOW WHERE IS MY ICED TEA.  The original statement i made was just to be a funny since coffee is something people cannot function without, i guess its kinda like porn


----------



## PushAndPull (Nov 1, 2009)

Built said:


> PushAndPull, go blank to read up some more on ephedrine. It is a very safe drug, and tremendously beneficial to many.
> QUOTE]
> 
> The longest I took ephedrine for was two years. Likewise my workout partner and wife also took it during the same period and became addicted. I highly doubt it is a safe drug, but I will give you this i've never had any harmful long term effects that I know of. On the other hand everyone I know that has taken it for an extended period of time has become addicted to it. No offense, I have a very hard time believing you when you say that, you cut back on taking the drug and felt no energy drop. But hey maybe you're different than me, and the people I know. Regardless, I would never recommend this drug to anyone.


----------



## Marat (Nov 1, 2009)

PushAndPull said:


> I highly doubt it is a safe drug



There are risks with any drug. At the typically recommend doses, the side effects are minimal. Because of it's mechanism of action, addiction is possible at high doses. 

What were you dosing your wife's ephedrine at?


----------



## PushAndPull (Nov 1, 2009)

m11 said:


> What were you dosing your wife's ephedrine at?



All of us started with half a pill (12.5mg) we built up a tolerance to that and then went to 25mg (12.5mg twice a day) and right before we quit it was 50mg(25mg twice a day)


----------



## Marat (Nov 1, 2009)

PushAndPull said:


> All of us started with half a pill (12.5mg) we built up a tolerance to that and then went to 25mg (12.5mg twice a day) and right before we quit it was 50mg(25mg twice a day)



Holding that those were the doses and no other sympathomimetic drugs were involved, I wouldn't expect addiction to occur.


----------



## PushAndPull (Nov 1, 2009)

m11 said:


> Holding that those were the doses and no other sympathomimetic drugs were involved, I wouldn't expect addiction to occur.



It certainly did cause addiction in all of us at those doses with absolutely no other drugs involved besides caffeine at least i'm sure of that for my wife and I.
Now we're not talking about crack addiction -lol- but definitley became fatigued about an hour before the second dose and later on, once the second dose wore off. Became extermely tried if we didn't have any pills at all. 
I definitly feel like I have more energy now after quiting or at least more constant energy, not up & down, and I just feel better overall.


----------



## Marat (Nov 1, 2009)

Are we entirely ruling out a placebo effect?


----------



## PushAndPull (Nov 1, 2009)

Yeah, I definitely am. No more jitters, crashes or otherwise crappy effects of ephedrine experienced by any of us anymore.


----------



## Built (Nov 1, 2009)

You weren't taking very much. I get the 8mg tabs that are legal and OTC here in Canada, and stack them with caffeine tabs, starting with 8mg E with 200mg C three times a day, then five, then I up the dose of E to 16mg - if you do the math, this is a gram of caffeine and 80mg ephedrine daily. 

I know why I stand behind my statement of ephedrine's safety record - peer-reviewed pubmed articles where EC stack was tested on the obese, including obese children. 

My feeling is that the lethargy of which many complain is due to withdrawal from caffeine, not from ephedrine. 

PushAndPull, you seem like a thoughtful soul. I'll give you some food for thought: 

Aug 2002: Dulloo's Editorial On Herbal Ephedrine/Caffeine


			
				drumlib said:
			
		

> The International Journal of Obesity recently published the results of a six-month study of herbal thermogenic supplements. If you're familiar with the medical research, you will not be surprised to learn that the study found herbal ephedra/caffeine "promoted body weight and body fat reduction and improved blood lipids without significant adverse events" (1).
> 
> "without significant adverse events"
> 
> ...


----------



## suprfast (Nov 1, 2009)

Im so pissed.  I just drove 30 miles to the nearest vitamin shoppe(i know i should have called) for ON Creatine and it wasnt there, but it was supposed to be in stock.  They dont even carry it there.

Oh well, online ordering is cheaper.
Bodybuilding.com - Optimum Micronized Creatine Powder - Minimum 99.9% Pure On sale now!
Bodybuilding.com - Optimum Melatonin - Supports Sleep!* On sale now!

Ill pick up selenium and vitamin D locally.  

Do those two options for those prices sound good?  S/H is 5.99 so its still cheaper than vitamin shoppe.
kris


----------



## PushAndPull (Nov 1, 2009)

Built

It's an interesting article. 
Yet i'm sorry to say that I still think ephedrine is addictive and in the long run you will have more energy naturally than you would by taking it. I don't think it's as dangerous as American media protrays it though. I seem to be fine after taking it for a couple of years...
As far as kids go, I don't think any kids should be given ephedrine for being obese. I think proper diet and exercise is the answer. Regardless if your metabolism slows down you can still lose weight, it just might hurt a little more,but sometimes ya gotta tuff it out. Just my opinion of course.


----------



## PushAndPull (Nov 1, 2009)

suprfast

Those are good deals on the creatine.
I don't use melatonin so I don't know if it's a good deal.
Even with the shipping cost, the creatine alone is worth it compared to buying it from a store.


----------



## suprfast (Nov 1, 2009)

It comes out to just below even buying from bb.com.  

I actually just looked up at massnutrition and the product was cheaper but the s/h would have made the total more expensive.  I feel bad, because i would have rather supported a local IM sponsor, but i had already placed the order.

Im sorry MassNutrition.


----------



## Built (Nov 1, 2009)

PushAndPull said:


> Built
> 
> It's an interesting article.
> Yet i'm sorry to say that I still think ephedrine is addictive and in the long run you will have more energy naturally than you would by taking it.


I can't honestly say I've gotten that much of a kick from ephedrine - I think for most folks, the "buzz" comes from the caffeine. I've taken it for appetite suppression though, and stacked with caffeine it works fairly well for that purpose. Nice preworkout, too, really clears your breathing; it is, after all, a decongestant. 


PushAndPull said:


> I don't think it's as dangerous as American media protrays it though. I seem to be fine after taking it for a couple of years...
> As far as kids go, I don't think any kids should be given ephedrine for being obese. I think proper diet and exercise is the answer.


I can't see how EC could supplant diet and exercise. Did you think I meant "here, kid, take these magic beans and get skinny!"? 

Being obese is a health risk. Treatments that are well-tolerated and help achieve the objective of reducing or eliminating this risk are reasonable to consider, given the alternatives. But really, that's a moot point. My assertion wasn't that this is the desired course of action, but that EC is such a safe anti-obesity drug, it can and has been used to treat children. 


Safety and efficacy of treatment with an ephedrine... [Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2000] - PubMed result
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2000 Dec;24(12):1573-8.
Safety and efficacy of treatment with an ephedrine/caffeine mixture. The first double-blind placebo-controlled pilot study in adolescents.

Molnár D, Török K, Erhardt E, Jeges S.

Department of Paediatrics, University of Pécs, Hungary. dmolnar@apacs.pote.hu
*
OBJECTIVE: *The present study was performed to investigate the efficacy and safety of a caffeine/ephedrine (CE) mixture in obese adolescents. 

*SUBJECTS:* Thirty-two (m/f = 16/16) obese children were included into the study. They were treated by diet (calculated daily energy requirement minus 500 kcal) and either CE or placebo (PL) for 20 weeks in a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trial. Those weighing less than 80 kg took one tablet three times (100 mg/10 mg), whereas those weighing more than 80 kg took two tablets three times per day. There were three dropouts (girls) from the PL group. The age, weight body mass index (BMI) values (mean (range)) of the PL and CE groups were 16.0 (14.3-17.6) and 16.0 (14.2-17.7) y, 103.0 (77.2-126.4) and 104.8 (69.8-150.2) kg, 35.2 (28.3-42.3) and 36.5 (31.3-51.8) kg/m2, respectively. 

*RESULTS:* The decrease in relative body weight, BMI and body fat (measured by bioelectric impedance) was significantly (P < 0.05) greater in the CE group (mean +/- s.d.; 14.4 +/- 10.5%, 2.9 +/- 1.9 kg/m2, 6.6 +/- 6.0 kg) than in the PL group (2.2 +/- 5.8%, 0.5 +/- 1.6 kg/m2, 0.5 +/- 2.7 kg). Relative body weight decreased by more than 5% in 81% of the CE group, out only in 31% of the PL group. Adverse events were negligible and did not differ between the CE and PL groups. Withdrawal symptoms were mild, transient and their frequency and severity were not different between the placebo and active groups. 

*CONCLUSION:* According to the present pilot study, CE can be a safe and effective compound for the treatment of obesity in adolescents.
​



PushAndPull said:


> Regardless if your metabolism slows down you can still lose weight, it just might hurt a little more,but sometimes ya gotta tuff it out. Just my opinion of course.



You ever been fat, PushAndPull? I don't mean "post-bulking season juicy" but truly obese?


----------



## suprfast (Nov 1, 2009)

built,
since we are still on EC, a quick question if you dont mind.

I know the ratio is roughly 10:1
I have the 25E to 200C.  If i take this first thing in the morning then grab a cup of Joe, will i have any issues?  Is the main key to have adequate C for the E and going over on the C is just extra BUZZING in the gym?


----------



## Built (Nov 1, 2009)

You'll be fine.


----------



## PushAndPull (Nov 2, 2009)

Built said:


> I can't honestly say I've gotten that much of a kick from ephedrine - I think for most folks, the "buzz" comes from the caffeine. I've taken it for appetite suppression though, and stacked with caffeine it works fairly well for that purpose. Nice preworkout, too, really clears your breathing; it is, after all, a decongestant.



Completely disagree. The ephedrine gives you a sustained "buzz" for hours where the caffeine is very short term, about an hour. The appetite suppression of ephedrine is also a very short term side effect, completely vanishing after approx two weeks. Unless you have asthma or are sick, then you really don't need a decongestant to workout.



Built said:


> I can't see how EC could supplant diet and exercise. Did you think I meant "here, kid, take these magic beans and get skinny!"?



No, I did not. Sorry if it came across that way. I was only voicing my opinion that I don't believe children should be given ephedrine to aid them in weight loss, regardless of how safe they believe it is, unless maybe if the child is too large to exercise. In that case, shoot the parents, and do whatever you can to save the child. Otherwise proper diet and exercise alone should suffice, and solve the real problem, which I believe is the child's lifestyle.



Built said:


> You ever been fat, PushAndPull? I don't mean "post-bulking season juicy" but truly obese?



I cannot say that I have been truly obese at any time in my life.
"post-bulking season juicy"? -lol-

Can we agree to disagree on ephedrine?


----------



## Built (Nov 2, 2009)

PushAndPull, I'm glad to hear you've never been fat. 

I have. I was fat for close to twenty years. EC has been one of the tools I've employed to keep me away from that state. 

Listen - no drug agrees with everyone. Clearly ephedrine doesn't agree with you; I understand what that feels like. For instance, in my case, Tylenol puts me in the hospital with a migraine (adverse reaction), and green tea with jasmine knocks me out (jasmine can act as a muscle-relaxant, and I'm particularly sensitive to it). A quarter-tab of one of my seventy-nine year old mom's Ativan and I sleep for three days - and yet I take 25mg of dextroamphetamine and 1000mg of caffeine daily, and still manage to sleep like the dead. 

My body likes stimulants. I barely even notice any buzz - they just make me feel normal. 

Your body appears to have a different reaction to them. I agree completely - YOU shouldn't take ephedrine! 

Cheers.


----------



## Arnold (Nov 2, 2009)

suprfast said:


> I feel like a druggie pill popper every morning.  Am i taking too much, or does it not matter.  Popping pills(in terms of real vitamins/minerals/etc) is easy so i dont mind if i needed to "pop" more to make sure i have all my bases covered
> 
> Currently my pill jar daily includes:
> 
> ...



I don't think that is a lot, I take many more supplements daily.


----------



## suprfast (Nov 2, 2009)

Prine, ill trade you the pink and yellow pill for the brown and orange pill.  

Push and pull,
I see you live in CA so you know we dont have the greatest air.  I live in the central valley and agriculture SUCKS around here.  The air is crap and i wake up every day congested.  When i have been taking the Ephedirine(decongestant) i have been able to breath much easier.  I have zero issues with asthma, nor do i need it but atleast im getting an extra plus from this stuff.  I dont get any extra ZINGS from anything i take.  This is why i question it alot.  If there is a proven SNAKE OIL id take it, but after i question it for some time.  I questioned EC stack and everything else i take for quite some time before i did research.  

Ill let you know if i run into any problems with addiction.  I would say the same things you do if i had previously felt this way.  I dont disagree with your personal findings, everyone reacts differently to all kinds of medication.
kris


----------



## T_man (Nov 2, 2009)

Shouldn't your daily vitamins already contain b12 and C seeing as they're really important?

Anyways I wouldn't take vitamin C with the multi in the morning, I would spread it out because vitamin C is water soluble and any excess will be pissed out rather than stored. Same goes for the vitamin B12, but I wouldn't take a complex ontop of the daily vitamins because too much b6 could have some side effects.


----------



## suprfast (Nov 2, 2009)

I just take it all in the morning because i would forget and dont have the time in the afternoons.  I guess i could split them up with a high dose of everything else before bed, but i dont mind pissing out anything extra.  Im sure the difference is going to be negligible and if i am just PISSING AWAY MY MONEY, then ill be fine.  

Just picked up selenium and D, thanks built
kris


----------

