# Training around a back injury



## RoosterTX (Apr 16, 2009)

_Edit:
This thread has been summarized here:. Read the individual posts to see the discussion.
_
_______________________________

So I've tried numerous times to start a thread dedicated to training with a low back injury. Specifically I have a herniated disc in the L4 L5 region with sciatic symptoms on the left side.

For a good while I had tried to continue incorporating squats and deadlifts into my p/rr/s, and other routines. 

It's just not working out. So I thought I might find some help in designing my leg abs and back day workouts

I am able to do DB squats, and in truth I like them more than BB as they seem more compound (recruiting the traps, delt, forearms, etc). I also seem to do well by split squat (lunges) with DBs. My primary concern for DB squats is the form. I end up with my arms wide out at my sides, which involves a good deal of upper body tension, and then moving through the squat motion.

I'm somewhat at a loss for what to do for my lower posterior chain, primarily QL, Deads are out, and to a certain extent hypertensions aren't that fantastic for me either.

For Back I feel very comfortable with the following:

Seated rows
Lat Pull downs
Reverse grip pull downs
all variations of chin and pull ups

I feel less comfortable with:

DB Rows
BBRows



For legs I feel very comfortable with:

DB Squats (aside from the issue of what form to use)
DB Split squats
Leg curls 
All kinds of calf raises

For Abs:

I am most comfortable doing cable knee tucks
also standing oblique crunches with DB

Generally anything that really loads up the spinal column or requires weighted flexion I would prefer to avoid if possible.

Any additional advice on what exercises might be a good addition would be much appreciated.


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## largepkg (Apr 16, 2009)

Single leg DB lunges will work the posterior nicely. Keep your back upright and flat and you should be fine.


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## RoosterTX (Apr 16, 2009)

Is there a double leg DB lunge? Is there a difference between db split squat and db lunge?


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## tucker01 (Apr 16, 2009)

double leg would be a squat

Lunge requires you coming back to feet beside each other.

Split squat your feet stay in the seperated position


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## P-funk (Apr 16, 2009)

Since I am not there and don't know your specific case, I'll be general and tell you the recommendations I give my clients with disc pathologies:

1) Take out flexion based exercise - crunches, bilateral deadlifts, bent over rows, exercises performed in a seated position (seated rows, seated pulldowns, etc).

2) Work on stability - planks, side planks, 1-leg glute bridge (hug the other knee towards the chest), half kneeling chops and lifts, dead bugs, bird dogs, etc..

3) For upper body pull movements get off the seated exercises.  Instead, do things like standing 1-arm cable rows, half kneeling 1-arm cable rows, half kneeling 1-arm pulldowns, inverted rows

4) Train the legs with unilateral movements - split squats, step back lunges, step ups, 1-leg/1-arm RDL, lateral lunge - make sure to perform the exercises properly to develop effective movement patterns/strategies that are spine sparing and allow for proper hip movement.

5) Work on hip mobility.  Spare the spine by developing proper hip mobility (this is something I just talked about in my blog).  Typically people compensate for crappy hip mobility (and crappy ankle mobility) by increasing lumbar mobility.  We want lumbar stability!

6) Don't do things that hurt.

7) When performing stability exercises like planks, don't get all caught up in trying to hold a 60sec side plank.  If you don't develop proper endurance in those muscles first, then you will compensate in order to try and hold the plank for that length of time and the form will go to hell.  Instead, use short holds and do reps.  So, side planks for 5 could holds for 5 reps and slowly work up from there.  Build endurance.

8) Use the foam roller on your hips to help clean up poor tissue quality and enhance movement.

hope that helps.

patrick


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## RoosterTX (Apr 16, 2009)

Would this be a good start for hip and ankle mobility? I do a number of these things already.
7 Dynamic Stretches to Improve Your Hip Mobility | StrongLifts.com
How to Improve Your Ankle Mobility | StrongLifts.com

Seated movements don't really hurt. Could I utilize them? I can't find a good example of half-kneeling pulldowns or rows.

I can't do 1leg RDLs on the left side (which is symtompatic) without pain. 

What can I do to strengthen my lower back besides various planks and holds, which I already do?


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## P-funk (Apr 16, 2009)

Those are some good mobility drills.

I don't know where videos of 1/32 kneeling pulldowns or rows are.  I know I have included them in my ebook.

I would stay away from the seated work, even if it doesn't really hurt.

If the 1-leg RDls hurt on the symptomatic side, then do not do them.  Stick with the 1-leg glute bridge and the single leg split squats until your symptoms calm down.

Planks, 1/2 kneeling chops and lifts, and bird dogs are all great exercises for developing strong abdominal brace.  The error most people make is thinking that they need to "strengthen the lower back" with some special exercises.  The lumbar spine gains stability by learning how to brace and then integrating that brace into movements (split squats, lunges, etc...) without having to think about it.  I invite you to revisit your form, as most people do not do planks (especially side planks) properly and they do not perform the proper progressions of the movement.

patrick


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## RoosterTX (Apr 16, 2009)

One note side to side leg swings on the left side (symptomatic) aggrevate the sciatica. To a LESSER extent so do regular leg swings on the left side.

What movements could I replace these with?

Any good links for proper form on side planks and planks?

I realize I don't know enough about the movements of the body, at least to formulate a good recovery plan on my own, and was thinking of working with a good team.

Could you vet these guys (know anything about them?) if not I understand and thank you for your help.

Next Level Sports Performance, physical therapy, sports medicine, Denver, Colorado


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## P-funk (Apr 16, 2009)

I could see the leg swings firing you up.  You may need some neural flossing, but that is not for me to decide via the internet.

I don't have any good videos of planks or the progressions I use, sorry.

I have never heard of those guys either.  That doesn't mean they aren't good.  I just have never heard of them.

patrick


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## RoosterTX (Apr 17, 2009)

could you explain the proper progression for planks please?


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## P-funk (Apr 17, 2009)

RoosterTX said:


> could you explain the proper progression for planks please?



wall w/rotation
prone on the knees
side plank on the knees
prone on the toes
side plank on the toes
prone w/rotation to side to side
prone with leg lift
prone with arms on stability
prone with arms on stability ball with leg lift
prone with toes on stability ball
prone with toes on stability ball with leg lift
side plank with hip abduction
side plank with feet elevated
side plank with feet elevated w/hip abduction

obviously the side plank and the prone stuff may be going on simultaneously on different days of the program.  Those are just some progressions I have listed down, but usually I don't use most of the (lol).  Typically if they can hold the prone plank, the side plank and then perform the rotation from prone to side properly, we can move on to other exercises.  If they still want/need (psychological reasons) to do their "core" bull shit, I let them do the other nonsense - but I would rather have them on their feet doing some real exercises after that point.

patrick


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## Built (May 2, 2009)

Now, I am rarely motived purely out of altruism, and this particular problem affects ME (grade 1 anterolisthesis of L5-S1, and now a herniated disc in my neck). 

What I would like to have spelled out for me is how to incorporate these movements into  something like P/RR/S or BGB or some other split that calls for heavy low rep work. 

In particular, I'd like to know how sprinting could work under this limitation, since for example in my case at least, sprinting doesn't aggravate my back injuries - and sprinters got some killer wheels!

I'm specifically interested in hypertrophy for quads and hams, so I am talking about a caloric surplus - just so we're clear. 

So, for example, BGB - an Ian King type of arrangement - has four days:

*Horizontal push pull (optional calves and abs)*
5x5 bench
5x5 T-bars
3x8 lncline dumbbell bench
3x8 one arm dumbbell rows
(optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves)

*Quad dominant, ham accessory (optional biceps)*
5x5 back squats
3x8 front squats
3x12 walking lunges
(optional 12 rep stuff for quads, optional biceps)

*Vertical push pull (optional calves and abs)*
5x5 weighted chins
5x5 millies
3x8 alternating single arm lat pulldowns
3x8 Oly bar corner press
(optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves)

*Ham dominant, quad accessory (optional triceps)*
5x5 RDLs
3x8 GHRs
3x12 front squats
(optional 12 rep stuff for hams, optional triceps)

If heavy squats and deads are out, how could this be adapted to encourage the wheels? 

I'm thinking sprints could work in here somewhere, and high rep squats - sprinters and speed-skaters' legs are HUGE so they must be doing SOMETHING right!


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## P-funk (May 2, 2009)

Built said:


> Now, I am rarely motived purely out of altruism, and this particular problem affects ME (grade 1 anterolisthesis of L5-S1, and now a herniated disc in my neck).
> 
> What I would like to have spelled out for me is how to incorporate these movements into  something like P/RR/S or BGB or some other split that calls for heavy low rep work.



This is a pretty loaded question.  You would have to take into account the injury of the individual and where they currently are with regard to pain and function.  For example, some people will have disk problems that may limit the individuals ability to move properly (or moving may cause pain), creating atrophy and decrease in strength.  So, it is on a case by case basis.

That being said, there are many people who have had herniated disks, spondy's, stenosis and other various back pathologies and can still go workout and lift (and some even can still play pro sports).  A lot of it has to do with properly training and knowing what you can and cannot do.  The purpose of training should be to make yourself _better_.



> In particular, I'd like to know how sprinting could work under this limitation, since for example in my case at least, sprinting doesn't aggravate my back injuries - and sprinters got some killer wheels!



If sprinting doesn't bother you, then great.  It may bother others though, so again, this is a case by case basis. 

I guess I'll just run through the program below and make some recommendations.




> I'm specifically interested in hypertrophy for quads and hams, so I am talking about a caloric surplus - just so we're clear.
> 
> So, for example, BGB - an Ian King type of arrangement - has four days:
> 
> ...



This day should be okay with those who have back pain.  I'd just substitute the t-bar tows with one of the other variations I had above.  The 1-arm DB rows may need to be substituted if they produce pain as well.




> *Quad dominant, ham accessory (optional biceps)*
> 5x5 back squats
> 3x8 front squats
> 3x12 walking lunges
> (optional 12 rep stuff for quads, optional biceps)



This is where things may get "dicey" for someone who is in back pain.  The back squats will have to be dropped.  Some can still do front squats; however, many have pain with any sort of loading like that, and if I am working with a client I just drop it all together because I would rather be safe than sorry.

Variations in split squats, lunges, and step ups are fine.  If you are seeking hypertrophy, work on performing slow eccentrics and even an isometric pause in the bottom of the movement.  This will allow you to develop tension without having to load up insane amounts of weight.  In addition, you can work on sets of 4-6 reps, just increase weight and still perform the controlled eccentrics.




> *Vertical push pull (optional calves and abs)*
> 5x5 weighted chins
> 5x5 millies
> 3x8 alternating single arm lat pulldowns
> ...



What are millies?

This day looks fine and just swap anything out if it gives you pain.




> *Ham dominant, quad accessory (optional triceps)*
> 5x5 RDLs
> 3x8 GHRs
> 3x12 front squats
> ...



Same type of scenario here as the previous leg day.  I like the 1-arm/1-leg RDL, but even that flexion movement may prove to be painful for people. If you can do it and it feels okay, then go with it.  Again, single leg movements and control the eccentric.  Initially start with loads you can handle and slowly work up over weeks and you can increase to doing lower reps.

Just because you can't squat or deadlift or perform them heavy does not mean that you can't have hypertrophy or strength.  It just means that you have to adjust your training based on your limitations.  

For example, I have a friend (a physical therapist actually) who has had some significant disc herniations in his lumbar spine.  But, he is still strong, he still plays hockey, still has huge legs and he still trains hard.  His training program is just different than it used to be.  He no longer does back squats or deadlifts.  He front squats, but never for maxes and never under 5 reps.  He still does power cleans and DB snatches.  And everything else he does is lunges or step ups - split squats, lateral lunges, walking lunges, step ups, bulgarian split squat, etc. 

You have to adjust the program for you.



> I'm thinking sprints could work in here somewhere, and high rep squats - sprinters and speed-skaters' legs are HUGE so they must be doing SOMETHING right!



If the sprinting doesn't bother you, then go for it.

Patrick


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## Built (May 2, 2009)

Thank you for this Patrick. Much obliged.

Millies are military press. I generally do standing push presses because I don't like to do seated shoulder work.

What kind of volume would you recommend given the lighter weights being lifted? 

For instance, suppose I can do 3x8 back squats with 165 and 3x8 fronts with a plate a side, but my back goes out and I'm unable to do anything heavier than 95 lb fronts.

For the sake of this thread (okay because this applies to me personally, sue me...) let's also assume that GHRs are okay but regular or single leg RDLs are not. SHELC and leg curls are possible, also hypers but not single leg. 

How would I set up my leg days with higher-rep fronts, the above movements and some sprints to stimulate hypertrophy?

What would my quad dominant leg day look like?
ie reps, sets, movements

How about my ham dominant leg day? Or would I do both leg days basically the same?


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## P-funk (May 2, 2009)

Built said:


> Thank you for this Patrick. Much obliged.
> 
> Millies are military press. I generally do standing push presses because I don't like to do seated shoulder work.
> 
> ...



Okay, that is a good question.  So 95lbs for front squats is your "limit" at the moment.  You can increase the sets and perform the same reps (IE, 4x8, 5x8, etc).  You can also keep the reps low (3-5) and perform more sets (IE, 8x4, 10x4, etc...).  The slowing down of the eccentric and the hold at the bottom will also make things more difficult and create more fatigue then just doing straight sets, so all things are not created equal.  From there, as you feel more comfortable, you may be able to raise the weight slowly.  Initially though, you may not be able to get away with doing the front squats right out of the gait.



> For the sake of this thread (okay because this applies to me personally, sue me...) let's also assume that GHRs are okay but regular or single leg RDLs are not. SHELC and leg curls are possible, also hypers but not single leg.



Stick with what you can do.  Remember, it is case by case.  Your workout may be something like bulgarian split squat (or front squat), GHR, and hypers (if those don't bother you - some people hate these).




> How would I set up my leg days with higher-rep fronts, the above movements and some sprints to stimulate hypertrophy?
> 
> What would my quad dominant leg day look like?
> ie reps, sets, movements
> ...



Could be something like this:

*Quad dominant Day*
1) Front Squat - 3count eccentric/1-count isometric - 5x6
2) Lateral lunge - 3x8
3) SHELC - 3x12

I would actually do my sprints 1st and then lift (or sprint on a different day).

*Ham dominant Day*
1) Step up - 5x6ea leg
2) Glute Ham - 3x8
3) Hypers (since they don't bother your back) - 3x12



patrick


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## Built (May 2, 2009)

Yes!! This was what I was after!

Now, for the sprints, these are obviously not HIIT. I do dynamic warmup for sprints - so after the dynamic warmup, what would you suggest for the sprints and rests? How many sprints, how long and how long for the rests? I'm thinking of them like "sets", so 15-20 seconds (roughly equivalent to 5-8 rep sets going by Poliquin's "time under tension"), then a minute or two active rest (slow walking), perhaps 5 or 6 sprints like this - then the rest of the leg work?

Thoughts?


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## P-funk (May 2, 2009)

Built said:


> Yes!! This was what I was after!
> 
> Now, for the sprints, these are obviously not HIIT. I do dynamic warmup for sprints - so after the dynamic warmup, what would you suggest for the sprints and rests? How many sprints, how long and how long for the rests? I'm thinking of them like "sets", so 15-20 seconds (roughly equivalent to 5-8 rep sets going by Poliquin's "time under tension"), then a minute or two active rest (slow walking), perhaps 5 or 6 sprints like this - then the rest of the leg work?
> 
> Thoughts?



I thought you would ask that (lol).

That is good that they are not HIIT sprints.  People always talk about sprinters and their physique but fail to recognize that sprinters don't do interval training the way that people think.  They sprint, then rest for awhile, then sprint again.  It isn't 30sec work:30sec rest or anything like that.

For example, if you look in my journal (on my site), on wed., we did all our sprinting first and then our deadlifts.  Our warm up was about 20min of activity centering around some dynamic mobility drills and 100m strides.  Then, we did some subamximal 30m sprints to get the legs prepared.  Then we were ready.  We alternated sets of weighted 30m accelerations (low weight) and un-weighted 30m accelerations.  Trying to accelerate up to the 20m mark (established by a cone) and then maintain that pace for the final 10m.  We did 3 weight sprints and 3 unweighted sprints (6 total) and then we did a variety of medicine ball throws.  Then we went inside and worked on some deadlifts and called it a day.

I would do something similar.  15-20min. on non-stop activity for warm up, mixing in dynamic drills (body weight squats, lunges, various stretches held for 1-2sec, etc) and 100m strides (very low intensity and keep loose).  Then, perform some sprints (20-40m), but they don't have to be all out 100% max effort.  90-95% (submax sprints) are fine and make sure you are working on good technique.  You can take full rest in between the sets (3-5min) or do some walking or light activity, but nothing to strenuous.  I would do anywhere from 5-8 sprints and then go lift.

Something along those lines.


Patrick


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## Built (May 2, 2009)

Muah!  This is EXACTLY what I've been looking for. Thanks HEAPS!


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## Built (May 2, 2009)

Summarizing this thread - for non-specific disc pathologies (that's "a bad back" for the humans), Performance Coach and Licensed Massage Therapist Patrick Ward gives the following broad recommendations based on what he gives his clients with these types of injuries. 

Obviously, since he is not there and does not know your specific case - please see a health care professional for your specific concerns.

*Patrick Ward: *

Don't do things that hurt. _(*MariAnne's note*: I moved this to the top - for everything that follows, obviously if it hurts YOU, don't do it.)_

Take out flexion based exercise - crunches, bilateral deadlifts, bent over rows, exercises performed in a seated position (seated rows, seated pulldowns, etc) even if it doesn't really hurt. _(*MariAnne's note*: I have a lower spine problem myself and had to make the switch to standing. It only sucks at first; once you re-learn how to stabilize yourself while standing, you'll never want to go back as you will find you need to do less direct ab work than you once thought!)_

Work on stability - planks, side planks, 1-leg glute bridge (hug the other knee towards the chest), half kneeling chops and lifts, dead bugs, bird dogs, etc. 

For upper body pull movements get off the seated exercises.  Instead, do things like standing 1-arm cable rows, half kneeling 1-arm cable rows, half kneeling 1-arm pulldowns, inverted rows

Train the legs with unilateral movements - split squats, step back lunges, step ups, 1-leg/1-arm RDL, lateral lunge - make sure to perform the exercises properly to develop effective movement patterns/strategies that are spine sparing and allow for proper hip movement.  If the 1-leg RDLs hurt on the symptomatic side, then do not do them.  Stick with the 1-leg glute bridge and the single leg split squats until your symptoms calm down.

Work on hip mobility.  Spare the spine by developing proper hip mobility (this is something I just talked about in my blog).  Typically people compensate for crappy hip mobility (and crappy ankle mobility) by increasing lumbar mobility.  We want lumbar stability!  

These are some good mobility drills:
7 Dynamic Stretches to Improve Your Hip Mobility | StrongLifts.com 
How to Improve Your Ankle Mobility | StrongLifts.com 

I have included 1/2 kneeling pulldowns and rows in my ebook. _(*MariAnne's note:* Patrick Ward's ebook "*Take Charge! Everything You Need to Know to Write Your Own Training Program*" is an excellent value for the thirty bucks. I highly recommend it to anyone, even if you are already a fairly experienced lifter. I'm dealing with a variety of injuries right now, and believe me when I say prehab is preferable to rehab!)_

When performing stability exercises like planks, don't get all caught up in trying to hold a 60sec side plank.  If you don't develop proper endurance in those muscles first, then you will compensate in order to try and hold the plank for that length of time and the form will go to hell.  Instead, use short holds and do reps.  So, side planks for 5 could holds for 5 reps and slowly work up from there.  Build endurance.  

Planks, 1/2 kneeling chops and lifts, and bird dogs are all great exercises for developing strong abdominal brace.  The error most people make is thinking that they need to "strengthen the lower back" with some special exercises.  The lumbar spine gains stability by learning how to brace and then integrating that brace into movements (split squats, lunges, etc...) without having to think about it.  I invite you to revisit your form, as most people do not do planks (especially side planks) properly and they do not perform the proper progressions of the movement.

*For example:*
wall w/rotation
prone on the knees
side plank on the knees
prone on the toes
side plank on the toes
prone w/rotation to side to side
prone with leg lift
prone with arms on stability
prone with arms on stability ball with leg lift
prone with toes on stability ball
prone with toes on stability ball with leg lift
side plank with hip abduction
side plank with feet elevated
side plank with feet elevated w/hip abduction

Obviously the side plank and the prone stuff may be going on simultaneously on different days of the program.  Those are just some progressions I have listed down, but usually I don't use most of the (lol).  Typically if they can hold the prone plank, the side plank and then perform the rotation from prone to side properly, we can move on to other exercises.  If they still want/need (psychological reasons) to do their "core" bull shit, I let them do the other nonsense - but I would rather have them on their feet doing some real exercises after that point.

Use the foam roller on your hips to help clean up poor tissue quality and enhance movement. 
*Working this into an existing split that calls for heavy low rep work, we need to define the parameters. *

In my case, I have anterolisthesis of L5 over S1, and a herniation in my c-spine. 

Ordinarily, I can back squat 165 lbs in 8-rep sets, and front squat 135 for 8-rep sets, but when my back bugs me I'm down to 95 lbs for fronts, and backs are out of the picture. Interestingly, I CAN usually sprint - so I'd like to work these into my training somehow, and not just the HIIT-type fat loss stuff.

*I can usually count on being able do the following:*
Front squats with 95 lbs
GHRs
Walking lunges
Sprints
Lateral lunges
SHELC 
Step up
Glute Ham Raises
Hypers 
Sprints

The question is how to create intensity in these movements so as to stimulate hypertrophy.

*Patrick Ward: *So 95lbs for front squats is your "limit" at the moment. 

You can increase the sets and perform the same reps (IE, 4x8, 5x8, etc).
You can also keep the reps low (3-5) and perform more sets (IE, 8x4, 10x4, etc...).  
Slowing down the eccentric and the hold at the bottom will also make things more difficult and create more fatigue then just doing straight sets, so all things are not created equal.
From there, as you feel more comfortable, you may be able to raise the weight slowly.  Initially though, you may not be able to get away with doing the front squats right out of the gate.​
I generally do a dynamic warmup before I do sprint work, but they're usually for fat-mobilization, not hypertrophy. This is a different application. For THESE sprints, I'm not going for HIIT-type intervals - this isn't to mobilize FFAs, but rather to promote muscle-growth. I'm thinking of it as a sub for heavy hamstring work, and that means reps and sets, with rest in between. Using Poliquin's "Time Under Tension" as a general guideline, I'm thinking something like 20-second sprints with a minute or two recovery between "sets", or sprints. 

*Patrick Ward: *People always talk about sprinters and their physiques but fail to recognize that sprinters don't do interval training the way that people think. They sprint, then rest for awhile, then sprint again. It isn't 30 sec work:30 sec rest or anything like that.

For example, if you look in my journal (on my site), on wed., we did all our sprinting first and then our deadlifts. Our warm up was about 20min of activity centering around some dynamic mobility drills and 100m strides. Then, we did some subamximal 30m sprints to get the legs prepared. Then we were ready. We alternated sets of weighted 30m accelerations (low weight) and un-weighted 30m accelerations. Trying to accelerate up to the 20m mark (established by a cone) and then maintain that pace for the final 10m. We did 3 weight sprints and 3 unweighted sprints (6 total) and then we did a variety of medicine ball throws. Then we went inside and worked on some deadlifts and called it a day.

I would do something similar. 15-20min. on non-stop activity for warm up, mixing in dynamic drills (body weight squats, lunges, various stretches held for 1-2sec, etc) and 100m strides (very low intensity and keep loose). Then, perform some sprints (20-40m), but they don't have to be all out 100% max effort. 90-95% (submax sprints) are fine and make sure you are working on good technique. You can take full rest in between the sets (3-5min) or do some walking or light activity, but nothing to strenuous. I would do anywhere from 5-8 sprints and then go lift.

Something along those lines.​
Spelling this out in detail for BGB - an Ian King type of arrangement - here's what we came up with:

*Horizontal push pull (optional calves and abs)*
5x5 bench
5x5 T-bars ** sub in chest-supported T-bars or other movement you can tolerate, such as motorcycle rows or inverted rows AKA "fat man pullups"
3x8 incline dumbbell bench
3x8 one arm dumbbell rows **sub in one-arm cable rows if these bother you
(optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves)

*Quad dominant, ham accessory (optional biceps)*
*Instead of:*
5x5 back squats
3x8 front squats
3x12 walking lunges
(optional 12 rep stuff for quads, optional biceps)

*Do this:*
Dynamic warmup
5-8 Sprints - see above for details

Front Squat - 3-count eccentric/1-count isometric hold - 5x6
Lateral lunge - 3x8
SHELC - 3x12
(optional bicep work)

*Vertical push pull (optional calves and abs)*
5x5 weighted chins
5x5 millies
3x8 alternating single arm lat pulldowns
3x8 Oly bar corner press
(optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves)

*Ham dominant, quad accessory (optional triceps)*
*Instead of this:*
5x5 RDLs
3x8 GHRs
3x12 front squats
(optional 12 rep stuff for hams, optional triceps)

*Do this:*
Dynamic warmup
5-8 Sprints - see above for details

Step ups - 5x6 ea leg
Glute Ham Raises - 3x8
Hypers or reverse hypers (since they don't bother my back) - 3x12


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## P-funk (May 2, 2009)

I should say, this is all very general information.  If you are dealing with back problems, be sure to get checked out by a professional to determine what you should and should not be doing.  If you are coming back from a back injury and starting to train again, seek out a professional (preferably a knowledgeable trainer) who can assess you and help you formulate a concrete plan.  Part of that plan may start with learning how to re-groove movement patterns (as McGill would say) and slowly develop proper control and awareness.

Patrick


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## Built (May 2, 2009)

Noted - this one is more specific to MY needs since, well, I asked! 

Thank you Patrick. 

Oh - any problem with doing the sprints twice a week like that - should I vary how I do them if I do them twice in a week?


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## P-funk (May 2, 2009)

Built said:


> Noted - this one is more specific to MY needs since, well, I asked!
> 
> Thank you Patrick.
> 
> Oh - any problem with doing the sprints twice a week like that - should I vary how I do them if I do them twice in a week?



You can do them twice a week on leg day.

Do your tempo work on upper body days.

patrick


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## Built (May 2, 2009)

"tempo" work?


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## P-funk (May 2, 2009)

Built said:


> "tempo" work?



Yea, submaximal conditioning/work capacity stuff.

For example, since we are talking about sprint training, you would have your sprint days, which are +90% (but not maximal for speed or distance), which are done on your leg days.

The tempo work would be on your upper body days.  For example, it may be something like tempo runs at a low intensity (<75% intensity) and you may do something like 200m tempo run, followed by a walk recovery, and repeat.  Or, you may do a low volume of longer distance tempo work, like say, 3x600m tempo runs with active recovery, again at <75%.  The reason that the tempo work is below 75% is to ensure that you are not sapping your nervous system so that you can adequately work on your speed/sprint days.  The speed work is over 90% because anything below 90% (in that 75-85% range) is too slow to be considered speed work and to fast to be considered tempo work (or speed endurance work), so it will just burn you out.

Other things you can do for tempo work may be something like rowing intervals, bike intervals (if those don't bother your back) or, I like to use either KB snatches or KB swings (can use DBs if you want) for something like 15sec work:15sec rest for a set amount of time.

Those are just some ideas.  So many ways to set up a training program though.

patrick


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## Built (May 2, 2009)

P-funk said:


> Yea, submaximal conditioning/work capacity stuff.
> 
> For example, since we are talking about sprint training, you would have your sprint days, which are +90% (but not maximal for speed or distance), which are done on your leg days.
> 
> ...



Hence your book. LOL!

Okay - I sometimes do hill repeats. Something like that could work here I suppose, right? 

I do them as a walk - me and jogging don't get along too well - on a treadmill, at an incline. 
(warmup at low grade for a minute or so)

4 minutes at 10%
1 minute at 5%

4 minutes at 11%
1 minute at 5%

etc until I max out the treadmill at 15%. 

(Cooldown at low grade for a minute or so)

How about complexes - too much for this?

For the tempo runs - most of the time, I'll be doing these on a treadmill, so how long would these be - like, 40 seconds for the shorter tempo work, and maybe 90 seconds for the longer ones? How many and how many?

And would I do the tempo work at the end of my lifting? I'm thinking I'd be kinda sapped if I did 'em first.


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## P-funk (May 2, 2009)

Built said:


> Hence your book. LOL!
> 
> Okay - I sometimes do hill repeats. Something like that could work here I suppose, right?
> 
> ...



Yea, that incline walking is fine.  I would do it at the end of the training day on upper body day - so lift first, then do the incline walking.

complexes can work if they are kept submaximal and don't interfere with the sprinting and leg day.

patrick


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## Built (May 2, 2009)

Cool - so I could do hills for one of 'em, and complexes for the other. Excellent. Probably do the complexes for the first one, since they're more taxing than the hills. 

I unfortunately edited before you replied. I added a question regarding the "tempo runs". How many of each length, and do I have the interval time about where you were thinking?


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## P-funk (May 2, 2009)

The time can be whatever you set it at.  Sometimes I do my tempo work as 60sec run:90sec walk for 20min, as an example.

patrick


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## Built (May 2, 2009)

Cool.

You're the bomb!


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## nkira (May 3, 2009)

*KABOOM!!!* 



Built said:


> Cool.
> 
> You're the bomb!


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## RoosterTX (May 6, 2009)

P-funk said:


> Yea, submaximal conditioning/work capacity stuff.
> 
> For example, since we are talking about sprint training, you would have your sprint days, which are +90% (but not maximal for speed or distance), which are done on your leg days.
> 
> ...



Are you advocating doing sprints and also lifting legs on the same day?


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## RoosterTX (May 6, 2009)

*Leg Lift 05/05/2009*

I know this isn't a training log and i don't plan to hijack the thread and use it as one but...

I figured for the next three weeks I would post my leg workouts, how it felt on the disc (I have a herniated disc l5 S-1), and how it was in terms of intesity.

05-05-09

Squats (rest was about 1:30-2):

10X135
8X185
8X185
8X185
8X185
8X185
6X205
6X205
4X215
4X215

5 sets of the following:
10 single leg ham curls (65 lbs hammer strength)
20 seated calf raises (85lbs)

Felt good. No back pain beyond the usual today. Pretty sore.


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## P-funk (May 6, 2009)

RoosterTX said:


> Are you advocating doing sprints and also lifting legs on the same day?



that's what it says.


patrick


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## ironman4 (May 6, 2009)

My brother has a similar back injury.
I will be sure to point him to this thread


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## Just_Moe (May 7, 2009)

Patrick thanks for taking your time with such a detailed answer! I appreciate you knowledge being shared as well as the fact you are not all ego* DO WHAT I SAY *.Very professionally worded and delivered. 
I am fortunate enough to have a copy of Take Chargeso I will be able to see what you are talking about in regards to the exercises you mentioned. (for those of us who are visual learners and just read this page as "words, words, words"

I will be back to the gym in 8 weeks for lower work and the information you gave me here actually motivates me more to seek out my PT crew to help me with the hip mobility vs spine mobility. My hips are almost locked into a crooked position which is either  a result of the stenosis or the cause? Hypothetical thoughts here?


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## P-funk (May 7, 2009)

Just_Moe said:


> Patrick thanks for taking your time with such a detailed answer! I appreciate you knowledge being shared as well as the fact you are not all ego* DO WHAT I SAY *.Very professionally worded and delivered.
> I am fortunate enough to have a copy of Take Chargeso I will be able to see what you are talking about in regards to the exercises you mentioned. (for those of us who are visual learners and just read this page as "words, words, words"
> 
> I will be back to the gym in 8 weeks for lower work and the information you gave me here actually motivates me more to seek out my PT crew to help me with the hip mobility vs spine mobility. My hips are almost locked into a crooked position which is either  a result of the stenosis or the cause? Hypothetical thoughts here?



"Locked in a crooked position", as in hip flexion (anterior tilt)?

It could be a chicken or an egg thing.  Unfortunately, static posture doesn't always dictate dynamic capacity, so that may or may not be the cause of the issue.  This is why having someone assess dynamic movement as well as static posture is helpful for making sense of the big picture.  For all you know, the cause may just have been a significant amount of loading overtime, or something to that effect.  At any rate, if your hips are "locked up" and hip mobility is impaired, then that is probably something that you are going to want to try and remedy, as the limitation may be leading to something more significant up the chain.  Soft tissue work for the hip flexors can be very helpful and you can do some stuff to just treat yourself and improve tissue quality.  Then follow that up with some lengthening and strengthening to develop better function and movement.

patrick


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## RoosterTX (May 7, 2009)

P-funk said:


> that's what it says.
> 
> 
> patrick



How would you set up that days program?

Warm-Up/Dynamics-Sprint-Weights moving from one to the next, or would you structure in some kind of rest and recovery period? If so how long of a recovery period?


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## P-funk (May 7, 2009)

RoosterTX said:


> How would you set up that days program?
> 
> Warm-Up/Dynamics-Sprint-Weights moving from one to the next, or would you structure in some kind of rest and recovery period? If so how long of a recovery period?



huh?  I thought I answered that in the previous few posts?  Are you asking something different?

patrick


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## Built (May 7, 2009)

Rooster, it's all in the "summary" post http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/98706-training-around-back-injury.html#post1893467


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## RoosterTX (May 7, 2009)

I see that your progression was: warm-up/sprint work/lift. I'm wondering if you just move from one to the next, or whether you structure in additional rest (5-10 min or whatever) between the sprints and the lifts. I generally try to get out to a track to do my sprints, treadmills just don't work for me on sprint intervals, and the closest track is about 20 away from the facility where I weight train. If I do my sprints and lifts back to back I'm going to have a 20 minute car ride in between, plus 15 minutes of logistics. That being said might it be better to try and break the workouts in two, doing sprint work in the am and lifting in the pm, or should I be unconcerend by the 35 min cool-down car ride.

I'm sorry, I haven't been very clear about what it is that I'm getting at. Thanks your your help.



P-funk said:


> huh?  I thought I answered that in the previous few posts?  Are you asking something different?
> 
> "For example, if you look in my journal (on my site), on wed., we did all our sprinting first and then our deadlifts. Our warm up was about 20min of activity centering around some dynamic mobility drills and 100m strides. Then, we did some subamximal 30m sprints to get the legs prepared. Then we were ready. We alternated sets of weighted 30m accelerations (low weight) and un-weighted 30m accelerations. Trying to accelerate up to the 20m mark (established by a cone) and then maintain that pace for the final 10m. We did 3 weight sprints and 3 unweighted sprints (6 total) and then we did a variety of medicine ball throws. Then we went inside and worked on some deadlifts and called it a day."
> patrick


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## Built (May 7, 2009)

Rooster, I'll defer to P-funk for this, but if I had to do it this way, I'd probably just sip a shake between locations. It's only 20 minutes.


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## P-funk (May 7, 2009)

RoosterTX said:


> I see that your progression was: warm-up/sprint work/lift. I'm wondering if you just move from one to the next, or whether you structure in additional rest (5-10 min or whatever) between the sprints and the lifts. I generally try to get out to a track to do my sprints, treadmills just don't work for me on sprint intervals, and the closest track is about 20 away from the facility where I weight train. If I do my sprints and lifts back to back I'm going to have a 20 minute car ride in between, plus 15 minutes of logistics. That being said might it be better to try and break the workouts in two, doing sprint work in the am and lifting in the pm, or should I be unconcerend by the 35 min cool-down car ride.
> 
> I'm sorry, I haven't been very clear about what it is that I'm getting at. Thanks your your help.



I see what you are saying.

Breaking them up between AM and PM is certainly a good option.

As for the 35min. of cooldown between the sprinting and the lifting, if you are going to do them in the same session like that, I would just make sure that you appropriately warm up and prepare yourself prior to lifting, following the cooldown.  You can certainly sip a shake during the 35min. break, as built has suggested.

patrick


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## Just_Moe (May 7, 2009)

P-funk said:


> "Locked in a crooked position", as in hip flexion (anterior tilt)?
> 
> It could be a chicken or an egg thing.  Unfortunately, static posture doesn't always dictate dynamic capacity, so that may or may not be the cause of the issue.  This is why having someone assess dynamic movement as well as static posture is helpful for making sense of the big picture.  For all you know, the cause may just have been a significant amount of loading overtime, or something to that effect.  At any rate, if your hips are "locked up" and hip mobility is impaired, then that is probably something that you are going to want to try and remedy, as the limitation may be leading to something more significant up the chain.  Soft tissue work for the hip flexors can be very helpful and you can do some stuff to just treat yourself and improve tissue quality.  Then follow that up with some lengthening and strengthening to develop better function and movement.
> 
> patrick




I think it is a chicken/egg thing. My right hip is forced forward while my left hip is forced back so it is twisting of the hips actually ( I am broken LOL). 
I have to work on tight hip flexors as well as recovery from the resulting damage to the spine and surrounding tissue. 

Thanks a lot of this thread--and advice!


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## P-funk (May 7, 2009)

Just_Moe said:


> I think it is a chicken/egg thing. My right hip is forced forward while my left hip is forced back so it is twisting of the hips actually ( I am broken LOL).
> I have to work on tight hip flexors as well as recovery from the resulting damage to the spine and surrounding tissue.
> 
> Thanks a lot of this thread--and advice!



Damn, to bad you don't live closer.  You sound like you would be a great case study for some of the things I have been checking out.


patrick


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## Just_Moe (May 8, 2009)

P-funk said:


> Damn, to bad you don't live closer.  You sound like you would be a great case study for some of the things I have been checking out.
> 
> 
> patrick




_ahh if I had a dollar every time someone said I would be a good case study..._


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## MAC24/7 (Feb 6, 2010)

back injurys suck big time...straps help alot with free weights..u get around the back injury


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## thesaurus123 (Mar 1, 2010)

very handy thanks


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## thesaurus123 (Mar 1, 2010)

i once pulled a back muscle, very painful


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## verybigguy (Mar 17, 2010)

Damn there is some nice info out there. Thx very much guys


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## maseco63 (Mar 20, 2010)

*Why Not Static Exercises?*

Try bk extensions,squats,etc light weight but incorporate negatives or a pause at the contraction!


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## Tartay (Mar 27, 2010)

Hi guys ive been reading some of the forums for a few days and decided to get an answer more tailored to my situation.  I have a back condition called Spondylolisthesis which according to WebMD is a condition in which a bone (vertebra) in the lower  part of the spine slips forward and onto a bone below it.  Its a congenital defect which reared its head while I was in high school playing baseball, but not really cause by anything.  (i am 22 now).  

I am looking to get back in shape and want to work with a personal trainer but want to get my core strength up before I start.  My 5th lumbar has a microfracture that will never completely heal up and occasionally hurts a bit if I sit in certain positions for long periods at a time.  It seems from what I have read in this thread that the plank exercise is the best way to get your strength up in the lower back.  But are there any other things that I could also be doing, mostly at home, that will make my back stronger to make up for my condition?

BTW im 22 about 5'10'' and 160ish pounds.  My goal in the long run is to reduce my body fat % and just become more "fit".  Im not concerned about building mass or losing weight as long as I can get rid of this little bit of fat that hangs around my belly.

Cheers


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## toyman (Apr 23, 2010)

*Reply*

Thanks, I have @ hernieated discs in the L4-5 area. This will REALLY help ME!!


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## cheappinz (May 19, 2010)

A lot of posts on here are good information for a healthy person taking their fitness to a new level.  The problem is, once you are injured, understanding what inflames and aggravates an existing injury may not be the expertise of the bodybuilders posting.  I am a trained PT and my previous jobs had me taking people with back injuries & rehabbing them to a normal strength and flexibility.  
If you have sciatica, that means the nerve is sending abnormal symptoms, typically pain or numbness down a leg.  To me, I would want to create an exercise plan that allows for strengthening without inflamming the damaged area.  and the damaged area is around the herniation.  Just because you have a herniation, doesn't mean you are abnormal.  Over 30% of the population has a herniation that would be diagnosed but are symptom free.  
One thing to remember while exercising is posture.  Posture with all your exercises is paramount, especially when there is an injury.  Poor posture can lead to additional damage to the area and pain and suffering as a result.  If you've gone for therapy, I'm sure they taught you how to tighten your abs in a "neutral position".  This is defined as a mid point between arching and flattening your back.  Its a comfortable mid range that you hold stiff by tightening your abs.  This is a skill you need to remember while exercising as it will keep you from causing damage.  Second thing to remember is do not combine motions.  You are either flexing/extending, or rotating.  Do not combine them all..this is a sure way to cause damage.  Personally, I'd skip out on the rotation exercises because I just can't think of any that are essential for your rehab..can't think of any that would make a significant improvement in your goal or getting back to normal.  
Intensity of exercise.  Depending on your exercise, it might be too soon for you to be pushing yourself to the point of valsalva.  When you have to almost hold your breath and push down really hard.  Remember, there are fluids in your body that circulate around you spinal column and brain and when you do this grunting-holding your breath-maximum pushing it messes with the pressure and flow of this fluid.. You might have heard of cerebro spinal fluid when people talk about migraines-headaches...its the same thing.  I'm not exactly sure how this would effect you, but if it causes pain for you and hindered your progress, its just not worth it to do these heavy exercises so soon.  
After exercising, even if you aren't in pain or feeling more symptoms, assume you have inflammed things.  Although muscle contractions help wick away inflammation, the stress you are putting on yourself may also be causing symptoms you will experience later that evening..lets treat it before it hurts.  This means, put yourself in a therapeutic position that will "undo" the damage of your workout.  Best position is on your belly, on your elbows similar to how kids watch tv.  They say the best thing to do is to spend the same amount of time in this position as you spend in a potentially hurtful position.  I say, if you can tolerate a 30 minute citcom with an icepack on your back, you will be taking down internal swelling and repositioning the herniation so it doesn't cause symptoms that will ruin your night.  
There's your free consult.  lol   If you went to PT, I'd be billing out atleast $150 an hour, teaching this to you, and giving you a stabilization home exercise program.  Progress cautiously and even if you arent feeling pain, it would be smart to continue with the prone on elbows and icing until you get rid of the sciatica.  You should notice it will recede back up your leg and eventually localize..that will be a good thing.  If you have any questions, you can IM me,,therapy is more of a hobby these days for me than anything. Good luck to you.  
oh, and I almost forgot.  flexibility.  stretching your hamstrings.  Don't forget to do this, but do it in a safe way..like laying on your back in a doorway with one leg through the doorway and the other leg up the wall.  work your butt closer and closer to the wall..that's the best way for a back injury.  Dont forget this stretch.  Its important.


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## ectomorph141 (May 20, 2010)

I slipped a disk in my back last year that ended up pinching my sciatic nerve. I could not stand up for 3 days.  I was locked in a 90 degree stance.  Worse pain I have ever delt with in my life.   Took about 3 weeks  until I could finally walk decent again.   Ice directly on the back helped a lot.  The main problem was the numbness in my right leg from the pinched sciatic nerve.  

I damaged it by spending months and months bent over working on cars, installing a sprinkler system,  using some stupid round edging tool, and many other things I did bent over outside.   Just totally destroyed it.  Golfing also destroyed it.  The only way I could get it to heal was to take 3 months and do nothing at all.  If I had to lift something I had help, if I had to pick something up I asked someone else to do it.   

Now here it is almost a year later and I have made a 99% recovery. Now I am hack squating over 200lbs and deadlifting over 200lbs.    But I started slow. I was only deadlifting about 20lbs when I started and slowly worked my way up. Same with squats. Started with 20lbs.  Just make sure you move slow while doing the reps. No jerking, no slamming or quick motion. Slow and easy and very light at first.      Recovery is possible but is a slow process.


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## MDR (May 23, 2010)

Grateful for all the info provided here.  A little over a year ago I had Back surgery.  L-3/L-4 Diskectomy and L-4/L-5 Laminectomy, along with signifigant nerve damage repair.  I come from a powerlifing background, so you can imagine that I needed to adjust my gym routines a bit.  At 43 years old I felt like I was learning how to lift all over again.  Things are getting better now, but the first eight months after surgery were pretty dicey.  Four months of virtually no activity followed by another four months of physical therapy.  I was very fortunate that I had a great surgeon, and I am back to almost 100%.  I never knew how much pain I was living with until after the surgery healed.  I may never get back to being a member of the one-ton club, but I can function pretty well in the gym, and do most any movement, provided I am careful and strict with my form.  Overall, the experience left me feeling lucky to be able to lift weights at all.  Very scary stuff.  Fairly new to this forum, and I am very impressed with the discussion level and quality of information on a variety of topics.  Good stuff!


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## Built (May 23, 2010)

MDR - good to have you here. It's important to see what others have been able to work through with the proper combination of treatment, rest, and rehab.


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## Tryinhard (Jun 21, 2010)

Wow, I am glad I joined this forum. There is a lot of great info and this thread is exactly what I was looking for. I have a bulging disc at L5 S1 and I have had 5 cortizone epidural shots already. I am hoping that by incorporating a lot of the suggested stretches and exercises that I can keep from getting those shots and avoid a herniated disc and surgery one day. I wish I had something to contribute like Cheappinz and P-funk. I am going to be using a lot of this info to start working on my core stabalization. Thanks again to everyone!


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## lknmuscle (Jul 9, 2010)

very helpful - thanks!


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## PushAndPull (Aug 19, 2010)

Thought the exercise selection here was helpful, especially for the lower body.


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## cheappinz (Aug 20, 2010)

I can give you a piece of advice (as a licenced PT I'm not just guessing an exercise for you..)

1. did you notice the exercise you are comfortable with are very stabile exercises meaning there's a one directional movement occuring that you have total control over.  
  *anyone with a back injury and anyone in general should avoid combined loaded movements..the quickest way to create an injury or inflame an existing one.  This means don't do an exercise that has you bending over and also twisting.  

   *twisting: I don't think I've ever given out an exercise with a twisting movement for a back injury...basically the only one I can think of is an ab contraction where you go diagonally and I'd consider that motion advanced.  For an inflamed injury, I'd stick with straight forward motion.  You can control it better. 

Valsalva: This is when you hold your breath and bear down to lift something heavy.  We do it all the time and its usually not a problem, but if you have an injury, doing this changes the pressure in the spinal fluid and may exacerbate painful symptoms.  So don't do it if it causes pain either during or after.  

Sciatica: If you have symptoms running down your leg you must realize its coming from your back.  The disk is like a marshmallow and with the typical poor posture we have during the day, it encourages this marshmallow to push back posteriorly towards the spinal nerves.  When it gets too close, the sciatica starts as a warning there is something wrong.  You spend a lot of time during the day in a poor position, so you should spend a lengthy period in a therapeutic position.  
  *If you sit a lot, you should either put a fanny pack with a thick facecloth roll strapped to your office chair(a lumbar support), and if you know you work hunched over, you should spend atleast 30 minutes watching a show on your stomach up on your elbows (like kids do) as daily therapy..this will help suck the disk back anteriorly to deminish the symptoms.  

exercises: Sounds like you already would drop the weight if you felt it hurt you.  good common sense.  I'd recommend sticking with the one directional exercises you can do with complete control and balance.  I'd cut out any rotational weighted exercises that may require you to plant your feet and twist..that's how people get and stay hurt.


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## cheappinz (Sep 9, 2010)

Its no surprise that bodybuilders with back injuries feel better as they thicken their torso up...Did you know there are medical studies that actually show the thickness of a body front to back (compare a thick bodybuilder to a super lean, tiny motorcycle racer physique..) protects the spine and improves an existing injury.. My partner has 7 healed fractures and a poorly healed and permanently damaged T7 which causes him to be pushed into a slumping position which ends up hurting him.  Staying "thick" as he calls it, decreases his pain and allows him to manage his own body without pain meds or any other treatment... 
*so do exercises that allow you to thicken up your postural muscles while maintaining a safe and painfree position.


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## PushAndPull (Sep 9, 2010)

cheappinz said:


> Its no surprise that bodybuilders with back injuries feel better as they thicken their torso up...Did you know there are medical studies that actually show the thickness of a body front to back (compare a thick bodybuilder to a super lean, tiny motorcycle racer physique..) protects the spine and improves an existing injury.. My partner has 7 healed fractures and a poorly healed and permanently damaged T7 which causes him to be pushed into a slumping position which ends up hurting him.  Staying "thick" as he calls it, decreases his pain and allows him to manage his own body without pain meds or any other treatment...
> *so do exercises that allow you to thicken up your postural muscles while maintaining a safe and painfree position.



You know of any good reads on upper back injuries? Seems the people here are referring to the lower.


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## tennfan (Sep 30, 2010)

i can tell u this, i have a back injury as well in the L4 L5 region with pinching on the sciatic, dont know if u have already but go to a chiropractor, i have seen the chiro for about 10 weeks once a week, made tremendous difference, im stubborn so there is no way i will cut out squats, i did cut deads and bent rows, chances are u not only have the disc problem, when ur back has any kind of displacement, the muscles and tendons and ligaments try to compensate, if u are a consistent lifter, the muscles will heal quickly, the tendons and ligaments only heal with time, keep training but be very conscious of how it effects ur back, the chiro will give a series of strecthes and exercises to perform do them consistently and ice ur stuff every night for about 20 min. i guarentee u will feel a huge difference in 4-5 weeks


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## Bigbroful (Nov 2, 2010)

Everything looks great inspite your injury


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## Bigbroful (Nov 2, 2010)

How did you get injured


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## M-Rods (Nov 16, 2010)

tennfan said:


> i can tell u this, i have a back injury as well in the L4 L5 region with pinching on the sciatic, dont know if u have already but go to a chiropractor, i have seen the chiro for about 10 weeks once a week, made tremendous difference, im stubborn so there is no way i will cut out squats, i did cut deads and bent rows, chances are u not only have the disc problem, when ur back has any kind of displacement, the muscles and tendons and ligaments try to compensate, if u are a consistent lifter, the muscles will heal quickly, the tendons and ligaments only heal with time, keep training but be very conscious of how it effects ur back, the chiro will give a series of strecthes and exercises to perform do them consistently and ice ur stuff every night for about 20 min. i guarentee u will feel a huge difference in 4-5 weeks


 

Very happy with the progress since ive been to the chiro, still feel very tentative doing any bent movement, i'm trying dumbell rows on an incline bench this week


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## cheappinz (Dec 12, 2010)

*possible relief L4,L5, & sciatica*

The way you hold your body makes a huge difference in the amount of relief or discomfort you will feel.  
They teach us in school your trunk should be held in a comfortable neutral position. Its not because its just looks better to stand up tall and upright, but because the spinal nerves are at their best, healthies position while your spine is upright...nothing being pinched or compressed.  
When you squat and exercise, you will need to take care to not let you trunk be in a flexed position.  It presses on the nerves.  
In addition to the obvious symptoms directly from the spine, there's the sciatica.  If you wear your wallet in your back pocket, this may be causing some or all of the sciatica.  You need to do a piriformis stretch as well as a lumbar extension stretch as part of your regular routine...


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## cass07 (Dec 20, 2010)

really need this training for my back..it's been aching everytime i sit down for hours..


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## chilskater (Apr 7, 2011)

try foam roller exercise


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## walterplans (Apr 7, 2011)

Nice techniques... love reading this...


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## Grizzly Adams (Aug 2, 2011)

This is a great thread, thanks for the info


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## 08bluebusa (Sep 27, 2011)

I agree that this is a great thread.  I appreciate the person who put the information together.  I have a herniated disc in my lower back and this has given me some great insight.


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## mljoshua (Sep 28, 2011)

Thanks for posting these. I don't have a back injury, but I do suffer from scoliosis. At my age (56) I have to be careful what I do since I am just starting out. You have given me some great suggestions and descriptions of exercises that ought to be safe for me.


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## platinumabs (Sep 28, 2011)

shudnt taking a break what comes important


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## heckler7 (Sep 29, 2011)

i have an L4 L5 disc buldge, I like to do wood choppers with the cables and other core strength excercises like pull overs. I found this to be a tremendous help. and all leg work is seated.


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## atvbulldog (Nov 22, 2011)

It was great to read this. Welcome to my world, have the same exact problem for the last several years. Any exercise that puts direct downward spinal pressure is out. Good bye squats front or back (leg presses kill me too). All seated movements are fine as long as there is an incline on the bench or seat. Over head seated military presses, alternating DB curls just to name a few are fine with incline. Legs for me are about the same as Rooster except I do plenty of extensions. My body is proof you can still carry good size and strength even with these limits. Good luck.


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## chosen1 (Nov 30, 2011)

I have a similar lower back problem.  Ive been getting nerve blocks etc for the past 3 years from a pain doctor.  Id really given up on barbell squats until i saw a video of Mike O'hearn squatting.  He does everything i never thought should be done.  He puts the bar a little lower on his back than ive ever seen and actually bends at his back forward at the bottom of the movement.  I tried it with very light weight at first and then heavy.  No pain that night or anynight thereafter.  First time ive done squats in 3 years that i haveNT  regretted it the next day.  its on bodybuilding.com sorry for not posting the link but its worth googling.  SQUATS ARE IRREPLACEABLE.


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## Stormshadow (Dec 8, 2011)

Good Info.


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## TJTJ (Dec 29, 2011)

I damn near cried today.  No I did cry. My herniated disc is kicking my ass. cant sleep, sit up, sneeze, cough, bend over, turn, wash my dogs. I cant fucking move! I may not be able to train ever again. I dont care what you say about me, a man, crying. If a young football star was injured and was told he could never play the sport he loves and lives for EVER AGAIN I bet you he'll be ballin'

To all you Obama haters out there, this is why we need universal health care. I cant afford $300 consul + xrays + MRI + what ever fancy machine, injection and meds they feel like ass raping me for. 

Im so scared too because school is starting next week and I dont even think ill be able to carry my books. Im looking into getting a wheelchair. 

Im so scared about my future. without exercising i might as well kill myself because there is nothing else in this world that makes happy or to live for. and the field im going into requires me to be able to rehabilitate patients. lift people is need or whatever.


I hate you all! (I really dont hate you all, its the pain talking) I feel like breaking shit. with all this pain has caused anger. It made me even play chicken with an on coming car. And he didnt even know he was playing, he just swerved out of the way. I have lost my GD mind do to this pain. 


FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF!!!!!!!!!!!


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## TJTJ (Dec 29, 2011)

Also god bless the USA for NOT having universal health insurance so I can live a healthly and productive life. now i might have to go on disability. would you rather have universal health insurance(so I can keep working) or pay for my disability(and not work). either way its coming out of your taxes.​


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## TJTJ (Dec 29, 2011)

Im sorry, please lets not turn this thread in to one of those because of me. I was just in great pain, and I still am and lost control of my emotions due to the pain. Im just scared that there my not be anything I can do about it because of $$$$ and I live for exercise. Without it I will lose my mind. 

I would like to say sorry and I apologize for my rant.


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## chilskater (Jan 4, 2012)

TJTJ, you will be in wheelchair in no time soon if u doing nothing..see physiotherapist and get proper XRAY...or try to look for chinese Physiotherapist..

My back pain caused by my pelvis misalignment..the chinese physiotherapist@sinseh adjusted it and im 70% better...i will be going for more treatment next week...he also find out my old injury on the my left waist side..


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## chilskater (Jan 4, 2012)

Just_Moe said:


> I think it is a chicken/egg thing. My right hip is forced forward while my left hip is forced back so it is twisting of the hips actually ( I am broken LOL).
> I have to work on tight hip flexors as well as recovery from the resulting damage to the spine and surrounding tissue.
> 
> Thanks a lot of this thread--and advice!



pelvis mis-alignment?


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## Adam12 (Jan 30, 2012)

Thanks for the lovely tips. this is what i was waiting for


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## fienelarinsare (Jan 31, 2012)

great,love it


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## Roaddkingg'sGirl (May 8, 2012)

Thanks p-funk ,I have the same issues with my back and with your knowledge I can use that to help myself without hurting anything.


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## MuscleGauge1 (May 28, 2012)

P-funk said:


> Yea, submaximal conditioning/work capacity stuff.
> 
> For example, since we are talking about sprint training, you would have your sprint days, which are +90% (but not maximal for speed or distance), which are done on your leg days.
> 
> ...



I never knew this. These are some great ideas


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## iron scuba (May 28, 2012)

A simple and easy thing to do is to make sure to do a lot of ab workouts when doing squats and deadlifts... your body is a pully system... and with those two the back side gets so much more work than the front side.... anytime my back starts hurting i always bust out the abs for a day andall is good....


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## iron scuba (May 28, 2012)

doctore told me i could never play football again i did and my days were ended playing college football... i had 4 levels of disc that were finally removed no fusion.  when i was told no football i couldnt hold back the tears of no more football AMERICAS SPORT!!!


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## scottandrew65 (Jul 3, 2012)

I have always wanted to say these things and you have been my voice and  have said it for me. In fact, I think that you have said it even louder!


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## sasuke (Jul 11, 2012)

I had a back pain couple of years ago doing the DB Rows. I think one should consider talking to their physician before trying these.


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## gabrielo1234 (Aug 16, 2012)

You should go to a chiropractor or physiotherapist.They will help you with your back problem.You should also avoid difficult exercises that stimulates the muscles back.I am sure that after all you will be ok, just have patient.


The Untold Secrets of Bodybuilding


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## sandiebroker (Oct 6, 2012)

could you explain the right way for planks please?


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## ROMANIANDEADLIFT (Nov 22, 2012)

10 MINUTES WITH INVERSION BOOTS and stabilization exercices perform 4 times a week no other training that this around 2 months 4 maybe if it s a bad condition on the discs that you can squat again the problem will still be ( 10% will not be anymore) there on the discs but after doing this you will be able to transfer the weight you are lifting proportional to the disc surface


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## Kfredrik (Jan 16, 2013)

Good program


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## johnhealth (May 4, 2013)

Straight back to the gym last night, after he for about two weeks due to having in my lower left back a muscular significantly. A doctor prescribed me muscle relaxants and gave me permission to use the gym on Thursday, a backup copy. I have that working around the taking, indicating that the squat and dead are out for a while.
I have the legs until the next day and I am looking recommendations on how it all into practice what to quantify the damage. 'M Thinking of doing the squat break, since no, I to have the stability of body weight in my return.
Any idea?

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## kboy (Jul 14, 2013)

I have the bottom 3 discs dislocated, one of them is inpinching a nerve that runs down my leg so on cardio days my leg will start burning and then go numb. My leg work outs are light for the most part except for leg press where I go heavy as hell because is my first exercise after that is moderated weight but squeezing good on every rep and watching my form. And I work legs twice a week.


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## kboy (Jul 14, 2013)

And no belt, I notice that my back got weaker wearing it.


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## usmclifter (Feb 9, 2014)

This exactly what I needed too! (injured combat vet)


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## micheal78 (Feb 20, 2014)

Injuries can be a blessing in disguise. Continue to work with your physical therapist as your progress.  Good Luck


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## 13bret (Feb 20, 2014)

.......


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## Mincow (Apr 9, 2014)

P-funk said:


> Since I am not there and don't know your specific case, I'll be general and tell you the recommendations I give my clients with disc pathologies:
> 
> 1) Take out flexion based exercise - crunches, bilateral deadlifts, bent over rows, exercises performed in a seated position (seated rows, seated pulldowns, etc).
> 
> ...



that's excellent info.  I've got 2 herniated disks and this seems perfect.


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## chilskater (Apr 9, 2014)

ur blog link please....i trained my core for 2 weeks then my backpain started to be ok...then go sport massage...massuer told me tht my back,glutes n hamstring were so tight tht he was exhausted at he end of the session...mayb i will try use foam roller everyday for 15min to make it better...finger crossed..


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## papersteroidguy (Mar 3, 2015)

In my opinion you must avoid bed rest. When you have serious back pain.


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## mrnogainz (Mar 4, 2015)

If I have a spinal injury should I be worried about horizontal stress being place on my back? Like in a bench press movement


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## Derek Wilson (Nov 12, 2017)

So Helpful!


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## MikeyT (Jun 27, 2018)

I have seen that Layne Norton has been recovering from a herniated disk. He would be worth checking out as a lot of his exercise have been about rehab and building up the strength in his back. Seems to be doing a lot of core exercises.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UjXEdoSzIE

In video he goes through some of the exercises he uses. 

I do a lot of rowing and was finding my back was getting sore so incorporated some of these movements along with unilateral movements and it helped.

I sometimes put my workouts on Perfect Rower if you want to see.


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