# How Do I Use HCG with Steroids?



## Arnold (Apr 15, 2010)

*Ask Michael Scally: How Do I Use HCG with Steroids?*

*Question: 
What???s the logic behind all the different timing and dosing of HCG ?? We hear taking it every day, every other day, every 3rd, 4th, or 5th day.

What about the dosing ? I hear to take it easy to prevent desensitizing the testes. With this you hear anywhere from 100 units to 250 units to play it safe. Others say anywhere from 500 to 2500 units at a time???Isn???t that a bit much ?

What about the length of time? I hear two clinics suggest 10 days; others say 3-5 weeks. Where does all this come from and who???s right?*


*Answer:*
Almost everything you hear or read will be anecdotal and therefore subject to no verification. Experiences with hCG while on TRT are posted. The use of hCG for PCT is only partly related to its use on TRT.

hCG while on TRT is used for two reasons. One reason is cosmetic. While on TRT it is not unusual and more often expected to have testicular atrophy. This is variable from individual to individual. The other reason is to act as a stimulus so the testicles do not shut down and therefore will be easier to initiate independent function after AAS cessation.

Desensitization is a potential problem with hCG. I do not think you will experience it with doses of 500IU or less 3X/week. Studies have used this dose for considerably long periods. In my patients when hCG was used while on AAS the dose was 1000IU every 3 days with one month on hCG followed by one month off hCG.

hCG for PCT involves additional concepts. This is the timing of hCG in relation to other medications for return of HPTA functionality. Under normal conditions the HPTA is a tightly coupled dynamic feedback loop. It is this coupling that has to be achieved after AAS cessation to return to normal. The analogy I use is the starting of a car by pushing it from behind. Alone the care will not start but with pushing the clutch can be popped and the car started.

After AAS cessation the secretion of LH is nil. It will not be able to initiate T production until a certain stimulus LH level is reached. Studies have shown that the time for this to occur can be lengthy. Thus the idea is to ???push??? the testicles with hCG and get them started. Once T production is initiated the dependent variable is LH. If the hCG is withdrawn without adequate LH to couple with the testicles return of HPTA functionality will fail.

The increased production of LH is achieved by a dual action of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist (SERM) at the estradiol receptor. Clomiphene will increase the secretion of LH by action at the hypothalamo-pituitary area. Clomiphene will cause an increase in LH and secondarily increases in T and estradiol. Estradiol has a negative feedback influence on the HPTA. Estradiol is 200X the inhibitory effect of T per molar basis. Normal serum levels are the following:

Testosterone: 3-10 ng/ml (10-35 nM/L)

Estradiol: 15-65 pg/ml (55-240 pmol/L)

Tamoxifen will counteract the effect of the estradiol. Once the hCG is withdrawn the LH, initiated by clomiphene and tamoxifen, will couple with the testicles and take over production of T by the testicles. The levels of LH to maintain and couple with the testicles are maintained by clomiphene and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is continued for 15 days while Tamoxifen is continued for 30 days.

In healthy adult men, circulating levels of testosterone have a distinct pattern, with increasing levels during sleep toward a maximum around the time of awakening and a decrease during the day. In PCT hCG is administered every other day. I suggest the same time each injection in an attempt to simulate this rhythm. This is purely empirical but I recommend hCG at bedtime (2200). Clomiphene is taken in divided doses of 50mg 2X/day.

*Source: Mesomorphosis.com*


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## jcar1016 (Apr 15, 2010)

Nice read on a sometimes confusing subject. Thanks Robert


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## juggernaut (Apr 15, 2010)

Answered one of my questions...quite well.


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## juggernaut (Apr 15, 2010)

If I were to use this for my PCT along with the nolva and clomid, could you show a table as to how and when these would be used on schedule?


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## jcar1016 (Apr 15, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> If I were to use this for my PCT along with the nolva and clomid, could you show a table as to how and when these would be used on schedule?


 Juggs Robert didnt write the article he just posted you should ask Heavy or Dragon that one bro


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## heavyiron (Apr 15, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> If I were to use this for my PCT along with the nolva and clomid, could you show a table as to how and when these would be used on schedule?


Scally recommends 2,500iu HCG eod with Nolva and Clomid. The HCG is ended before the aas clear. I don't follow this protocol myself but that's what he would say.

*HPGA Normalization Protocol After Androgen Treatment*
*N Vergel**, AL Hodge, MC Scally*
*Program for Wellness Restoration, PoWeR*​ 

*Objective Results Discussion*

To develop an approach to cycle androgens that would result in significant changes in body composition and accelerate the normalization of the hypothalamic pituitary gonadal axis (HPGA) after cessation of androgens.

*Methods*

An uncontrolled study of 19 HIV-negative eugonadal men, ages 23 – 57 years, administered testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks, and then were treated simultaneously with a combined regimen of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) (2500 IU/QODx16d), clomiphene citrate (50 mg PO BID x 30d) and tamoxifen (20 mg PO QD x 45d), to restore the HPGA.

*Results*

Mean FFM by DEXA increased from 64.1 to 69.8 kg (p<.001); percent body fat decreased from 23.6 to 20.9 (p<.01); strength increased significantly from 357.4 lb to 406.4 lb (p=.02). No significant changes in serum chemistries and liver function tests were found. HDL-C decreased from a mean value of 44.3 to 38.0 (p=.02). Mean values for luteinizing hormone (LH) and total testosterone (T) were 4.5 and 460, respectively prior to androgen treatment. At the conclusion of the 12-week treatment with androgens the mean LH <0.7 (p<.001) and total testosterone was 1568 (p<.001). The mean values after treatment with the combined regimen were LH=6.2 and testosterone=458.

*Discussion*

The use of androgens has been reported to improve lean body mass, strength, sexual function, and mood accompanied by side effects caused by continuous uninterrupted use of these compounds (polycythemia, testicular atrophy, hypertension, liver dysfunction [oral androgens] and alopecia.) Androgen-induced HPGA suppression causes a severe hypogonadal state in most patients that often require an extensive period of considerable duration for normalization. This prevents most if not all individuals from cycling off these medications due to the adverse impact of this state on their previously gained LBM and quality of life. The protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen cessation. Further controlled studies are needed to determine if these results can be duplicated in HIV positive subjects.


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## juggernaut (Apr 15, 2010)

Very good. Thanks HI


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## Pirate! (Apr 15, 2010)

My argument is that if you've proactively used hCG during the cycle, there is no benefit for use after the steroids have cleared your system.


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## WFC2010 (Apr 16, 2010)

Great info for all who use gear.


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## Iron Dragon (Apr 16, 2010)

My only problem with the article, is the use of nolvadex to inhibit estrogen from it's role in the negative feed back loop. An AI is a better choice. As nolvadex as been shown to casue an increase in circulating estrogen levels.


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