# Need some supplement advice



## Floorguy (Feb 14, 2009)

I am relatively new to the whole scene, but I have always been in pretty good shape.  I am 6' 0 about 188lbs and I am 25.  I started training with a buddy of mine just to burn off some fat, and create some better definition.  I had good results from animal cutz,diet and exercise.  I have been on the cutz for two weeks. I am also actively using whey protein. That being said, now I really want to boost up the strength.  More muscle mass couldnt hurt either.  I would appreciate some sound advice.  My buddy was on xtreme tren with great results, but now he says he wouldnt ever take it again (worried about his libido I guess).  I however am not so concerned as I am married with 3 kids....lol.  What do u guys think?


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## Built (Feb 14, 2009)

You'll get plenty of gains with food and heavy pieces of iron. 

What's your routine like, and what are you specifically trying to do - add muscle? Because you're going to have to gain weight to do that, and that means you're going to have to eat more. 

How many calories do you currently consume, and what is your current training routine? What is your squat, bench, deadlift?


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## Floorguy (Feb 14, 2009)

Thanks for the reply Built.

My routine is every other day: 1hr workout biceps and chest one day,maybe 9-10 sets each. Then next workout day 1 hr shoulders triceps.  Always throwing in extras like back, forearms etc.  Generally afterwards I do a 30 minute elitical program to burn off a few hundred more calories.

I am looking to up my maxs and workout weight....i.e. strength.
I just feel like I got a hell of a lot more in me, u know?  

As far as diet I have been eating pretty healthy.  Mostly grilled chicken, veggies, lowfat stuff..86ed the carbs.  My intention in the start was to burn off some excess fat.  Currently I am about 13.5% body fat.  

Now that I am really getting into it, I want to get to the next levels.

I dont do any squats because I get plenty of legwork at work, and I also have a lower back issue.  My main focus is upper body and I want it BIG!!!!


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## Built (Feb 14, 2009)

FitDay - Free Weight Loss and Diet Journal

Enter a typical day and post up the calories, grams of protein, carb and fat. You can just paste in the numbers beside the pie chart. 

I want to see the basic breakdown of your diet, and your calories.

You're not going to get bigger or stronger unless you change your training and your diet. For one, stop trying to burn off calories. That's not what cardio is for.

What do you do for back?


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## Merkaba (Feb 14, 2009)

bench and bi day, then shoulders and tri, Back falls under the "Extra" Category and no legs mentioned????

You don't need supplements you need a workout plan.  Built I don't know what's gonna happen when you get tired of repeating your self for free!  I did a long time ago.  

I say if your back is so screwed up that you can't do some variation of squats then you probably don't need to do bench either.  I don't know your situation but 99% of the people I talk to don't do squats because they have back issues. And they look like it. I've got scoliosis and I rep out 315 easily and do deads over that.  Whats wrong with your back?

Plus you need to max out a diet before wasting money on supps. Luckily Built is here to save the day.


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## Floorguy (Feb 15, 2009)

Lets back up for just a sec Merkaba.

I never once said I was a professional or that I knew anything about proper diets for different results.  I joined this forum to get experienced input from vets who have no problem helping out a rookie like myself.

As far as the back, it is not so horrible that I cant exercise it. The problem is muscular for sure.  I dont currently have access to proper equipment for squats.  
Obviously Im not doing enough back exercises, just pullups and maybe a little work with millitary press but that is geared more towards shoulders.  How is a 30 minute program on eliptical not working out the legs, especially on high resistance?

Built.... I will try to map that out for you.  You commented on not burning cals, but if u recall I said my first goal was to burn off some chub.  I appreciate any feedback that you guys give, *just please be patient with me*.  As I said Im not knowledgeable enough yet.  That is what I was hoping to gain from you guys.           What type of diet would u recommend for someone looking for these result?


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## Ben dur (Feb 15, 2009)

the proper equipment to do squats is a barbell and a rack


pullups and chinups are the bread and butter of my back workout


and i have been credited by my friends as having an abnormally large and defined back


and the reason eliptical is an arobic activity
the amount of muscle growth stimulated by this is about none..
you will likely loose size in your legs doing this actually

doing 30 minutes of cardio is great for your heart
but generally we loose fat by dieting
and gain muscle by eating more than we burn

ie
eliptical=non anabolic


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## Floorguy (Feb 15, 2009)

Grams	Calories	%-Cals	
Calories		
565

Fat	
21.0

187

33
	%
Saturated	
5.6

51

9
	%
Polyunsaturated	
4.5

39

7
	%
Monounsaturated	
8.6

77

13
	%
Carbohydrate	
68.2

273

48
	%
Dietary Fiber	
5.4

Protein	
27.1

111

19
	%
Alcohol	
0.0

0

0
	%


Fat
  (
33
%)		
Carbs
  (
48
%)

Protein
  (
19
%)		
Alcohol
  (
0
%)


these numbers obviously vary, this being a normal day from trying to burn the fat and tone up.  There is also alcohol to consider in sometimes.


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## Floorguy (Feb 15, 2009)

Thanks Ben, 

As u may guess from my screen name i am a floorguy.  I am constantly up and down, carrying weight at the same time.  Basically always up and down and working the legs back and forth to the saws.  Do you suggest that I also throw in some more leg workouts?  I understand that working the legs produces more growth hormone... I have just felt that my legs get a hell of a workout.


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## Ben dur (Feb 15, 2009)

a typical leg workout leaves my legs throbbing for a few days

i would not wish that on anyone
especially one who works on there legs for a living...

but im afrade anyone who wants to grow bigger and/or stronger must do squats

only my opinion
take it for what its worth


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## Floorguy (Feb 15, 2009)

Thanks man.


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## Built (Feb 15, 2009)

You only eat 600 calories a day?


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## Merkaba (Feb 15, 2009)

Floorguy said:


> Lets back up for just a sec Merkaba.
> 
> I never once said I was a professional or that I knew anything about proper diets for different results.  I joined this forum to get experienced input from vets who have no problem helping out a rookie like myself.
> 
> ...



I never said you were a pro.... Its ok...

Sure rolling up and down on a elliptical works your legs.  So does walking...Noone in their right mind will tell you that is a leg workout, and if you have two knees you have enough equipment to do squats.  Enough already.  You just don't know how many people have 9 zillion ways to avoid a proper leg workout.  Hell especially guys.  All they care about is bench.


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## Floorguy (Feb 15, 2009)

Built said:


> You only eat 600 calories a day?



Yeah, but that was my diet for feeling like I needed to shed off some fat.  I feel pretty good about the results that I got, but I kinda want to do a 180.  Now I want to go as far as I can with muscle building and strength training.  My weight is not and has not been a concern, I just want more muscle now.  What do you suggest I do Built?


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## Hahzist (Feb 16, 2009)

Hey Floor.

You and I are in a similar boat. I've been putting on muscle for a few years now and the first thing I learned coming to this forum a few weeks ago was that working out your legs is very important. I'm not a big fan of leg workouts either but it has to be done. Squats and deadlifts seem to be the most important.

I'm 6 foot and weighed as much as you a few months ago. I've put on 12 pounds of muscle simply by eating a lot and working out. I've actually put on 30 pounds in a little over a year I think. You should be consuming around 3,500 calories if you're exercising that much. Also try to spread this out into 5 or 6 meals so your body is constantly nourishing itself. 

As far as supplements the only thing I've taken is whey protein, some creatine, and Mass XXX from GNC. The Mass stuff is just a powder you can mix with milk it's got about 900 calories in it which is all carbs and protein. You shouldn't be cutting out carbs, they are essential along with protein for building muscle. I usually drink one of these half way through my workout and since I've been using it I've gained weight a lot faster. Ofcourse eating real food is better and you should be focusing on that rather than drinking 3 shakes a day. It's just a quick and easy way to help fill your quota. I drink about 2 to 3 of them a week. Just my 2 cents.


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## Merkaba (Feb 16, 2009)

Floorguy said:


> Yeah, but that was my diet for feeling like I needed to shed off some fat.  I feel pretty good about the results that I got, but I kinda want to do a 180.  Now I want to go as far as I can with muscle building and strength training.  My weight is not and has not been a concern, I just want more muscle now.  What do you suggest I do Built?



Jesus Christ.  No wonder you have back problems!  Youre burning your back muscle to stay alive!  Where did you get this diet idea from I'm curious?  or...did you just make it up?


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## Built (Feb 16, 2009)

Built said:


> You only eat 600 calories a day?





Floorguy said:


> Yeah, but that was my diet for feeling like I needed to shed off some fat.  I feel pretty good about the results that I got, but I kinda want to do a 180.  Now I want to go as far as I can with muscle building and strength training.  My weight is not and has not been a concern, I just want more muscle now.  What do you suggest I do Built?



Why so low, and for how long did you do this? How much weight did you lose?


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## Floorguy (Feb 16, 2009)

Hahzist said:


> Hey Floor.
> 
> You and I are in a similar boat. I've been putting on muscle for a few years now and the first thing I learned coming to this forum a few weeks ago was that working out your legs is very important. I'm not a big fan of leg workouts either but it has to be done. Squats and deadlifts seem to be the most important.
> 
> ...



Thanks a bundle.  I appreciate your input and it seems to be the consensus from most of the replies.  I will make sure to EAT MORE, TRAIN HARD.


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## Floorguy (Feb 16, 2009)

Built said:


> Why so low, and for how long did you do this? How much weight did you lose?



I guess I never realized how low those numbers were.  I wasnt only eating 600 cals everyday, that was just an example of an average day.  I did that for about 3 weeks, interestingly enough I only lost about 5 lbs.  I have trained pretty intensely the entire time.  I *KNOW* that I only lost 5 lbs because I also noticeably put on muscle.  It obviously wasnt the best way to do it, but I did get the results I had hoped for.  As of 2 days ago when I got your advice and some others, I have jumped up the calories, carbs, and protein intake.  

I am starting to understand how naive I really was after reading some stickies, and getting useful input.


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## Floorguy (Feb 16, 2009)

Merkaba said:


> Jesus Christ.  No wonder you have back problems!  Youre burning your back muscle to stay alive!  Where did you get this diet idea from I'm curious?  or...did you just make it up?



Completely made it up...obviously.

I want to apologize for snapping also, I understand that u guys probably get douches in here who sound like complete morons.  I assure u I am reasonably intelligent, but when it comes to dieting I dont have a clue.  I do appreciate your responses on some of my other posts....Rude or not it is still helpful.  I just dont like being made out to be an idiot.


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## Built (Feb 16, 2009)

Floorguy said:


> I guess I never realized how low those numbers were.  I wasnt only eating 600 cals everyday, that was just an example of an average day.  I did that for about 3 weeks, interestingly enough I only lost about 5 lbs.


Okay, well, 5 lbs of fat means 3500x5=17500 calories, or an 833 calorie a day deficit. 

This does sound odd - given you were only eating 600 calories a day during this time, you must have a maintenance of about 1400 calories a day. 

Either you ate more than this on average, or you need to get your thyroid checked, STAT!



			
				Floorguy said:
			
		

> I have trained pretty intensely the entire time.  I *KNOW* that I only lost 5 lbs because I also noticeably put on muscle.


In three weeks, overtraining on 600 calories a day and while losing five pounds? I don't think so.

If you did, I want some of that gear you're running!



			
				Floorguy said:
			
		

> It obviously wasnt the best way to do it, but I did get the results I had hoped for.  As of 2 days ago when I got your advice and some others, I have jumped up the calories, carbs, and protein intake.
> 
> I am starting to understand how naive I really was after reading some stickies, and getting useful input.



I'll be interested to see what happens now that you are eating more. What calories are you currently running?


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## Floorguy (Feb 16, 2009)

Built said:


> Okay, well, 5 lbs of fat means 3500x5=17500 calories, or an 833 calorie a day deficit.
> 
> This does sound odd - given you were only eating 600 calories a day during this time, you must have a maintenance of about 1400 calories a day.
> 
> ...



I will now make sure to take in between 3500 to 4000 cals.


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## Floorguy (Feb 16, 2009)

Hey built...

I should let you know that as I was tracking my food on fitday today, I realized that I screwed up the amounts of food when we determined I was eating 600 cals.  Probably more like 1200.
Oops.

Dont worry....I finally figured it out though


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## Built (Feb 16, 2009)

Okay thank GOD. 

Now - you are planning to jump straight from 1200 calories a day to 4000? 

Hope you like getting fat! You lost five pounds on 1200 calories a day - if we do the math and ignore the calories burned from your workouts, your maintenance is only about 2000 a day.


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## Floorguy (Feb 16, 2009)

1200 was a guesstimate.  I promise Ill get my shit together.  Maybe Ill be able to make u proud one day!


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## Floorguy (Feb 16, 2009)

i did about 2500 cals today.  

I have been told to go double the meals in a day, what do u suggest I do while working......I have a physically demanding job so I cant stop every couple hours to eat.


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## Built (Feb 16, 2009)

Do you feel hungry every couple of hours? You have all day to eat. Just get it in.


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## soxmuscle (Feb 16, 2009)

You need a better routine to see any gains.

Your current one is horrible.


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## Built (Feb 16, 2009)

Listen, my husband weighs what you do and he's an inch shorter than you. At 42, his maintenance is about 2700. 

Why don't you try shooting for that for now and see what happens? If in fact 2700 is your maintenance, and you lost five pounds of fat in 21 days, you created a deficit of about 800 calories a day, likely about 500 through diet and a further 200-300 through overtraining. My guess is that you were eating around 1800-2000 calories a day over this period.
1800 from food
500 calorie deficit from diet
300 calorie deficit from overtraining
________
2600 calories a day maintenance. 


If I'm wrong, I can't even imagine what went wrong with your metabolism.


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## Merkaba (Feb 16, 2009)

Floorguy said:


> Completely made it up...obviously.
> 
> I want to apologize for snapping also, I understand that u guys probably get douches in here who sound like complete morons.  I assure u I am reasonably intelligent, but when it comes to dieting I dont have a clue.  I do appreciate your responses on some of my other posts....Rude or not it is still helpful.  I just dont like being made out to be an idiot.



Cool man.  Sorry to come off like that as well.  But dam its just fun sometimes.  
I don't think people view people as idiots in here because the media and such have really screwed the public over when it comes to this stuff.  I mean its a multi billio dollar industry.  Stick around and your life will probably change for the better.


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## Floorguy (Feb 17, 2009)

Built said:


> Listen, my husband weighs what you do and he's an inch shorter than you. At 42, his maintenance is about 2700.
> 
> Why don't you try shooting for that for now and see what happens? If in fact 2700 is your maintenance, and you lost five pounds of fat in 21 days, you created a deficit of about 800 calories a day, likely about 500 through diet and a further 200-300 through overtraining. My guess is that you were eating around 1800-2000 calories a day over this period.
> 1800 from food
> ...




I can only assume that sounds right.  In fact I would probably wager on it.
Ill try 2700 for now and see what happens.  Thanks a lot Built......BTW newbie homework post was excellent, if only everyone were as patient!!!


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## Floorguy (Feb 17, 2009)

Merkaba said:


> Cool man.  Sorry to come off like that as well.  But dam its just fun sometimes.
> I don't think people view people as idiots in here because the media and such have really screwed the public over when it comes to this stuff.  I mean its a multi billio dollar industry.  Stick around and your life will probably change for the better.




No major harm done here.  Like they say tough love is still love!


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## bigback51 (Feb 22, 2009)

Floor guy, if you benching frequency is pretty high, and your technique is such that your feet are flat, way underneath you, and you have a pretty good arch is your back, with your but down, where one could place their hand between the bench and your back, all this could lead to a real tightening of your lower back. You want to bet your back strong this is what I do 2x a week:
1. Bent over Rows, standing on Thick 35`s, I use a belt, and wrist straps.
2. One Arm Dumbbell Rows, use a belt, & straps. Also do them off a horizontal bench, kneeling on a 4" block of wood with a pad, so I get a longer stretch while pulling.
3. Heavy Front Lat pulldowns.
Try Deadlifting on a seperate day, I never DL the same day I do Back. ALSO do them using the Sumo technique, you take the lower back out of the movement, because your "dropping down", instead of bending over.
Last sometimes I`ll throw in T-Bar rows for the back. I
 don`t mean to brag, I`m 56, and can do hyperextentions for sets of 6 reps  holding 3 each  45 lb plates.  If I can keep my back strong, you can make yours strong.
Good Training
Big Back 51


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## Hench (Feb 22, 2009)

bigback51 said:


> Floor guy, if you benching frequency is pretty high, and your technique is such that your feet are flat, way underneath you, and you have a pretty good arch is your back, with your but down, where one could place their hand between the bench and your back, all this could lead to a real tightening of your lower back. You want to bet your back strong this is what I do 2x a week:
> 1. Bent over Rows, standing on Thick 35`s, I use a belt, and wrist straps.
> 2. One Arm Dumbbell Rows, use a belt, & straps. Also do them off a horizontal bench, kneeling on a 4" block of wood with a pad, so I get a longer stretch while pulling.
> 3. Heavy Front Lat pulldowns.
> ...



Theres nothing wrong with doing deads on back day. Nothing wrong with not doing them there either, whatever hes most comfortable with.


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## bigback51 (Feb 23, 2009)

I challenge anyone, who is honestly busting their fanny, doing a brutal 2 hr back work out, to ALSO  do a gut busting DL workout in the same session. Ya I can do DL`s during a back session, but thats called going thru the motions, no nothing behind the pulls thats for sure!!
Big Back 51


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## Ben dur (Feb 23, 2009)

2 hr is overkill

nearly by a factor 3


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## Ngordyn (Feb 23, 2009)

i am in the gym for approx 2 hrs but then i train with a buddy of mine


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## Arnold (Feb 23, 2009)

Ben dur said:


> 2 hr is overkill
> 
> nearly by a factor 3



not for a pro bodybuilder.


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## Hench (Feb 23, 2009)

If hes not using AAS that has to be overkill. No natural workout need take 2 hours.


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## PainandGain (Feb 24, 2009)

Moondogg said:


> If hes not using AAS that has to be overkill. No natural workout need take 2 hours.



Agreed.
My workouts NEVER go over an hour.
In fact most are 35-45mins. I don't fool around.
I go in, drink water. Do a set. Drink water. Do a set.
Rinse repeat.


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## Floorguy (Feb 24, 2009)

bigback51 said:


> Floor guy, if you benching frequency is pretty high, and your technique is such that your feet are flat, way underneath you, and you have a pretty good arch is your back, with your but down, where one could place their hand between the bench and your back, all this could lead to a real tightening of your lower back. You want to bet your back strong this is what I do 2x a week:
> 1. Bent over Rows, standing on Thick 35`s, I use a belt, and wrist straps.
> 2. One Arm Dumbbell Rows, use a belt, & straps. Also do them off a horizontal bench, kneeling on a 4" block of wood with a pad, so I get a longer stretch while pulling.
> 3. Heavy Front Lat pulldowns.
> ...



Thanks for the advice, but that wasn't the source of my back problems.  However, since I have been doing LOTS more back and leg..i.e.squats, deadlifts, and pullups, I have had remarkable results with the loss of back pain.  

I guess I just needed to work it out a bit.


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## Merkaba (Feb 24, 2009)

Floorguy said:


> Thanks for the advice, but that wasn't the source of my back problems.  However, since I have been doing LOTS more back and leg..i.e.squats, deadlifts, and pullups, I have had remarkable results with the loss of back pain.
> 
> I guess I just needed to work it out a bit.



Told ya!

Now the challenge will be to get proper rest and days off and not get caught up in the new freedom!  

Way to go!


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## Ben dur (Feb 24, 2009)

ive heard many reports of proper deadlifts and proper sldl beinfeting people with their lower back pains


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## Namo (Feb 24, 2009)

Ben dur said:


> ive heard many reports of proper deadlifts and proper sldl beinfeting people with their lower back pains



I can tell you from personal experience that this is absolutely true.


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## bigback51 (Feb 24, 2009)

Two Hrs for a back work out is overkill? Are you guys kidding me? When you guys get to be my age, your perspective on many things change, and you realize that every day is a gift, so seize the moment, and go for it with all the Intensity you can muster!!! Oh Hell I know I over train, and I don`t care, last week I DL`d 3 times. Tues, Thurs, & Friday, and had absolutely great pulling sessions! To top it off on Sat, went heavy on Barbell rows, and one arm dumbbell rows,( 150 pounders for sets of 6 reps), been doing this kinda stuff for years! You dudes gotta remember I`m an old Ohio State Buckeye, which means I`m probably alittle nuts. Some of you guys need to pin your ears back and flat out go for it!
Good Training to all of you.
I enjoy the interaction on the forum.
Big Back 51


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## Ben dur (Feb 24, 2009)

bigback51 said:


> Two Hrs for a back work out is overkill? Are you guys kidding me? When you guys get to be my age, your perspective on many things change, and you realize that every day is a gift, so seize the moment, and go for it with all the Intensity you can muster!!! Oh Hell I know I over train, and I don`t care, last week I DL`d 3 times. Tues, Thurs, & Friday, and had absolutely great pulling sessions! To top it off on Sat, went heavy on Barbell rows, and one arm dumbbell rows,( 150 pounders for sets of 6 reps), been doing this kinda stuff for years! You dudes gotta remember I`m an old Ohio State Buckeye, which means I`m probably alittle nuts. Some of you guys need to pin your ears back and flat out go for it!
> Good Training to all of you.
> I enjoy the interaction on the forum.
> Big Back 51





today i did my entire back routine in 40 minutes
i think that "every day is a gift" is a good reason to spend LESS time in the gym

not every waking hour of every day

make a routine
and stick to it

work out with intensity
put out full effort

then get the hell out of the gym
and stop flirting with the chick at the counter
or flapping your jaw with all the other douchbags standing around

it gets crowded
and there is no need to workout something for 2 hours that you just worked out for 2 hours the night before


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## workhard1 (Feb 24, 2009)

bigback51 said:


> Two Hrs for a back work out is overkill? Are you guys kidding me? When you guys get to be my age, your perspective on many things change, and you realize that every day is a gift, so seize the moment, and go for it with all the Intensity you can muster!!! Oh Hell I know I over train, and I don`t care, last week I DL`d 3 times. Tues, Thurs, & Friday, and had absolutely great pulling sessions! To top it off on Sat, went heavy on Barbell rows, and one arm dumbbell rows,( 150 pounders for sets of 6 reps), been doing this kinda stuff for years! You dudes gotta remember I`m an old Ohio State Buckeye, which means I`m probably alittle nuts. Some of you guys need to pin your ears back and flat out go for it!
> Good Training to all of you.
> I enjoy the interaction on the forum.
> Big Back 51




While I agree that people should sometimes pin their ears back and train hard that doesn't mean they should be working out for two hours. Focus all of that two hours of intensity in to one hour and see how it goes. I know when I am seriously doing deads I could not physically complete them 3 times per week. Sure if my intensity is not totally to the max then i could do it, but if I am working out at full intensity there is now way I could do deads 3 times a week. 

Besides, I train to improve physically (strength and physical appearance) and working my muscles two hours a day does not seem to do much for me in either category


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## Hench (Feb 25, 2009)

bigback51 said:


> Two Hrs for a back work out is overkill? Are you guys kidding me? When you guys get to be my age, your perspective on many things change, and you realize that every day is a gift, so seize the moment, and go for it with all the Intensity you can muster!!! Oh Hell I know I over train, and I don`t care, last week I DL`d 3 times. Tues, Thurs, & Friday, and had absolutely great pulling sessions! To top it off on Sat, went heavy on Barbell rows, and one arm dumbbell rows,( 150 pounders for sets of 6 reps), been doing this kinda stuff for years! You dudes gotta remember I`m an old Ohio State Buckeye, which means I`m probably alittle nuts. Some of you guys need to pin your ears back and flat out go for it!
> Good Training to all of you.I enjoy the interaction on the forum.
> Big Back 51



BigBack if training 2 hours a day puts a smile on your face, knock yourself out. Each to their own. Your completely right, I also treat everyday as if its my last. Which is why I dont like to spend a minute extra than I have to in the gym. To be honest I fucking hate the gym, im always surrounded by 30 pricks doing bicep curls, or worse, using the squat rake to do upright rows. I go in, I train heavy and I train hard, then im out. 

Basically I train to give optimum results, not so much for pleasure. Besides, if you cant hit a muscle group in 8 sets your not training hard enough.


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## bigback51 (Feb 25, 2009)

Moondog, workhard1, you guys are all right. You can take the boy outa the country, but you can`t take the country outa the boy. As for you Mr Ben Dur I`ve been training longer, AND HARDER, then you`ve been on this planet. Teach me something I don`t know, versus knock what I`m doing.
Big Back 51


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## Ben dur (Feb 25, 2009)

haha

whatever makes you feel better about it...

maybe youve been training longer
and maybe you train LONGER

but i seriously doubt you train "harder"

and i would certainly say (by your statement) your training isnt "smarter"

good luck reaching your goals
i will not get into a pissing contest with you online


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## bigback51 (Feb 25, 2009)

40 minute back workout? Thats a joke
Big Back 51


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## Ben dur (Feb 25, 2009)

=)

Benjamin William


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## Hench (Feb 25, 2009)

bigback51 said:


> 40 minute back workout? Thats a joke
> Big Back 51



Im not picking sides, but a 40min back workout is far from a joke.


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## Merkaba (Feb 25, 2009)

<---Pops Pop corn


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