# ZMA over 21 years old?



## nR_Kris (Aug 24, 2004)

ZMA should be not taken by guys under 21 years old? istn zma a natural booster for testosterone? Instone T-Forza says don't take it if you're not over  21


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## redspy (Aug 24, 2004)

Nobody should take ZMA for increasing testosterone because it's a waste of money.  If you want it to help you sleep, knock yourself out and order some.  

 The 21 or under warning relates primarily to the 6-OXO in Forza-T.  People younger than 21 shouldn't be playing around with AI's.


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## Alaric (Aug 24, 2004)

Yea, I didn't see any warnings on the bottle, I'm sure its fine.  All you'll notice is maybe a deeper state of sleep when on it.


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## kvyd (Aug 25, 2004)

I dont see any adverse side effects from taking a standard Zinc and Magnesium supplement for people under 21...because everyone needs these minerals.


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## LAM (Aug 25, 2004)

redspy said:
			
		

> Nobody should take ZMA for increasing testosterone because it's a waste of money.  If you want it to help you sleep, knock yourself out and order some.



only according to you is it a waste of money.  medical study performed on athletes has proven otherwize.

anyone can take ZMA, young & old, men & women.  it does not have to be cycled.  you can take ZMA every day for the rest of your life...


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## luke69duke69 (Aug 25, 2004)

i've definitely noticed better sleep through it.  i've had insomnia most of my life dating back to childhood, and the only thing i notice is i seem to sweat more in my sleep since taking it.


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## redspy (Aug 25, 2004)

LAM said:
			
		

> only according to you is it a waste of money.  medical study performed on athletes has proven otherwize.


 Show me an independent study where it's had an effect on increasing Testosterone levels in healthy subjects.


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## LAM (Aug 25, 2004)

redspy said:
			
		

> Show me an independent study where it's had an effect on increasing Testosterone levels in healthy subjects.



Hormones and Strength in Athletes

L. R. Brilla, Western Washington University, Bellingham, WA 98225, and V. Conte, BALCO Laboratories, Burlingame, CA 94010.

A double-blind, randomized study was conducted to determine the effect of a novel zinc and magnesium formulation (ZMA) on anabolic hormone levels and strength in athletes. Members of the University football team (n=27) had blood collected at the beginning and end of an 8 week period of intensive training. Subjects were supplemented with ZMA (n=12) or placebo (n=15) for the 8 weeks. The ZMA group took 3 capsules nightly that contained a total of 30 mg of ZN as monomethionine/aspartate, 450 mg of Mg as aspartate and 10.5 mg of vitamin B-6. The plasma Zn and Mg levels increased in the ZMA group by 29.1% (.804 to 1.038 mcg/ml) and 6.2% (19.43 to 20.63 mcg/ml), respectively, while levels decreased in the placebo group by 4.4% (.836 to .799 mcg/ml) and 9.2% (19.68 to 18.04 mcg/ml), respectively. The total and free testosterone levels in serum increased in the ZMA group by 32.4% (567.9 to 752.7 ng/dl) and 33.5% (132.1 to 176.3 pg/mL), respectively, in contrast to the placebo group which decreased by 10.5% (588.8 to 526.8 ng/dL) and 10.2% (141.0 to 126.6 pg/mL), respectively. The serum, IGF-1 levels increased in the ZMA group by 3.6% (424.2 to 439.3 ng/mL) and decreased in the placebo group by 21.5% (437.3 to 343.3 g/mL). All comparisons were statistically significant (P 0.001). Pre and post isokenetic strength determinations in newton meters were made using a Biodex dynamometer. Subjects (ZMA n=10; placebo n=11) were measured for maximum quadricep strength on the right leg at 180 degrees per sec (strength) and 300 degrees per second (functional power). The ZMA strength group change at 180 degrees per second was 11.6% (189.9 to 211.8) compared to the placebo group change of +44.6% (204.2 to 209.1) and the ZMA group change at 300 degrees per sec. was +18.2% (316.5 to 373.7), in contrast to the +9.4% (369.5 to 404.3) for the placebo group (P 0.05). These findings suggest that nightly supplementation with ZMA significantly increases Zn and Mg levels, anabolic hormone levels as well as strength and power in athletes.

Sports Medicine, Training and Rehabilitation Journal, November 1998


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## Pepper (Aug 25, 2004)

redspy said:
			
		

> Nobody should take ZMA for increasing testosterone because it's a waste of money. If you want it to help you sleep, knock yourself out and order some.


Completely disagree with this post. ZMA is dirt cheap and does help you sleep. It is worth it just for that.


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## redspy (Aug 25, 2004)

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]A study claiming that ZMA increases anabolic hormones and strength in athletes was conducted by L. R. Brilla, Western Washington University, Bellingham, WA, and V. Conte, BALCO Laboratories, Burlingame, CA.[/size][/font]

                       [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]While their results show statistically significant differences between the ZMA and placebo groups following 8 weeks of intensive training (higher testosterone levels and greater increases in strength) -- *the study was significantly flawed.*[/size][/font]

                       [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]*The                      beginning levels of zinc and magnesium in these athletes'                      blood were already low.* (Average serum zinc was 0.82 mcg/ml; deficiency threshold is 0.7 mcg/ml. Average serum magnesium was 19.6 mcg/dl; deficiency threshold is 16 mcg/dl.)[/size][/font]

                       [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Increased exercise raises the body's need for zinc in a variety of ways. The fact that levels of zinc and magnesium dropped in the control groups' blood (to 0.8 mcg/ml of zinc and 18.0 mcg/dl of magnesium) shows that the increased exercise had this expected effect.[/size][/font]

                       [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]So both groups needed more of these essential minerals, probably even before the intensive training, but only one group got it.[/size][/font]

                       [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]What happened here can be understood if one thinks about the normal diet eaten by "members of the University football team" (the study's subjects). *Their diet is probably low in zinc, magnesium                      and B6, if not actually deficient* -- which is probably true for most unsupplemented people in the US. High protein intake (undoubtedly consumed by these football players) increases the need for B6, and zinc is particularly important for protein (muscle) synthesis.


  Again, if you have a study with healthy subjects please pass it along. If these people in the study had a balanced diet and took a basic multi vitamin/mineral supplement it's high unlikely ZMA would have been effective.
   [/size][/font]


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## Pirate! (Aug 25, 2004)

redspy said:
			
		

> If these people in the study had a balanced diet and took a basic multi vitamin/mineral supplement it's high unlikely ZMA would have been effective.


 For control purposes they would have been instructed not to supplement with a multi-vitamin during the experiment. If they had taken a multi, there probably wouldn't have been any boost in test from the ZMA. I believe Prince has stated that there are no studies where ZMA has raised testosterone in "healthy" subjects, or people without low Mg & Zinc. As with any vitamin or mineral, if one is not deficient, there are no performance or health benefits to taking more. But as this study showed, when there is a deficiency there are performance benefits to supplementing to the point of having healthy vitamin/mineral levels.

I am glad to see references to university research on college athletes. At least we know that researches acknowledge and study supplementation for those who lift weights. The RDAs are based on such research.


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## redspy (Aug 25, 2004)

PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> ....The RDAs are based on such research.


 Don't start that argument again


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## LAM (Aug 25, 2004)

PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> As with any vitamin or mineral, if one is not deficient, there are no performance or health benefits to taking more.



how do you KNOW if one is deficient in zinc if there is no definitive indicators of zinc status in the human body ?


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## Pirate! (Aug 25, 2004)

There are many symptoms of zinc deficiency, but they are mostly seen in middle eastern children because of their diet. The only way to KNOW if someone is deficient is to check blood levels. The average intake of Zinc in the U.S. is about 11 mg/day. This is sufficient for most women, but not enough for men and children. The Upper Level for Zinc is 40 mg/day. Above 50 mg may cause vomiting, diarrhea, headaches, exhaustion, etc. Zinc interferes with copper metabolism--an effect that in animals, leads to  degeneration of the heart muscle. High doses also appear to accelerate the development of atherosclerosis. 25 mg should be enough for just about anyone. Children generally have higher needs than grown bodybuilders because Zinc plays an important role in growing and the maturation of sex organs. I get 25 mg/day from my multi. Add the 30 mg from ZMA and I am in the danger zone, taking over twice what my body needs. This isn't even counting the zinc found in the meat, fish, legumes, and whole grains that I eat. Food for thought.


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## Pirate! (Aug 25, 2004)

redspy said:
			
		

> Don't start that argument again


We are all here to learn from each other, not prove that we know everything.


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## LAM (Aug 25, 2004)

PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> The only way to KNOW if someone is deficient is to check blood levels.



lol, I knew you were going to say that...all you are doing is reciting the "text book" answer.

for an athlete just knowing the blood concentrations is not a indicator of defeciency since zinc is water soluable.  all a blood test shows is the current status of blood concentration levels of zinc...

blood levels are sometimes normal in zinc deficient persons due to homeostasis. Urine and hair tissue levels are often elevated in zinc deficiency because of "short circuiting" of zinc through the body and high rates of excretion....so simply taking a blood test is not enough

here are some references you can look up...



Cunnane, S.C., Zinc: Clinical and Biochemical Significance, CRC Press, Inc., Boca Raton, FL (1988). 

Prasad, A.S., "Deficiency of zinc in man and its toxicity", in Trace Elements in Human Health and Disease, Vol. 1, Academic Press, New York, 1976. 


Prasad, A.S., "Clinical and biochemical spectrum of zinc deficiency in human subjects", in Current Topics in Nutrition and Disease, Vol 6, New York, 1982. 

Smith, J.C., Holbrook, J.T., and Danford, D.E., "Analysis and evaluation of zinc and copper in human plasma and serum", J. Amer. College of Nutr., 4:627-638 (1985). 

Kleimola, V., et al, "The zinc, copper, and iron status in children with chronic diseases", in Trace Element Analytical Chemistry in Medicine and Biology, Walter de Gruyter, New York (1983). 

Reding, P., DuChateau, J., and Bataille, C., "Oral zinc supplementation improves hepatic encephalopathy", Lancet, ii, 493 (1984). 

Pohit, J., Saha, K.C., and Pal, B., "A zinc tolerance test", Clin. Chim. Acta, 114: 279 (1981). 

Pecoud, A., Donzel, P., and Schelling, J.L., "Effects of foodstuffs on the absorption of zinc sulphate", Clin. Pharmacol. Ther., 17, 469 (1975).


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## redspy (Aug 25, 2004)

LAM said:
			
		

> blood levels are sometimes normal in zinc deficient persons due to homeostasis. Urine and hair tissue levels are often elevated in zinc deficiency because of "short circuiting" of zinc through the body and high rates of excretion....so simply taking a blood test is not enough


 Good points.  

 Also, to what extent (if any) small deficits in zinc intake create clinical problems also remains unclear.


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## Pirate! (Aug 25, 2004)

The way nutritionists discover deficiencies is through various methods of recording how much of which foods the person eats over a period of time. The results are compared to what the established needs are for that individual given their gender and age. I am experienced in these methods and have great software that aids in this. I would be happy to analyze your diet and let you know if you are getting sufficient zinc from foods, LAM. It is easy to determine how much zinc is in a given food, so the accuracy depends on the food record. Send me a 7 day food record. These types of records are done for whole populations in addition to individuals, which helps determine at what level people are deficient. As far as current blood level concentrations, yes they vary, as does natural testosterone, blood calcium, and many other things. You asked how one KNOWS, there are different ways to go about it, but none are completely accurate.


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## Vieope (Aug 25, 2004)

nR_Kris said:
			
		

> ZMA should be not taken by guys under 21 years old? istn zma a natural booster for testosterone? Instone T-Forza says don't take it if you're not over  21


_Yeah, don´t take them. Vitamins and minerals are evil. _


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## LAM (Aug 25, 2004)

PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> As far as current blood level concentrations, yes they vary, as does natural testosterone, blood calcium, and many other things. You asked how one KNOWS, there are different ways to go about it, but none are completely accurate.



Exactly my point ! 

which is why a cheap supplement like ZMA can be of value to all athletes...if optimum performance is your goal you do not wait until you are deficient in something, you prevent the deficiency...it's called preventive maintenance


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## Pirate! (Aug 25, 2004)

I agree. I take ZMA, too.


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## redspy (Aug 25, 2004)

LAM said:
			
		

> Exactly my point !
> 
> which is why a cheap supplement like ZMA can be of value to all athletes...if optimum performance is your goal you do not wait until you are deficient in something, you prevent the deficiency...it's called preventive maintenance


 From this perspective ZMA might assist you in addressing deficiencies (less cost effectively than a multi vit/min I might add) but it's not effective in raising Test levels in healthy people with adequate nutrient intake, contrary to the product claim.

 I know I???m belaboring the point here but I hate to see people taking ZMA thinking it increases Test and is great for PCT.   Although I concede it would be better to take this than be deficient.


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## Pirate! (Aug 25, 2004)

redspy said:
			
		

> I hate


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