# Good form?



## Arnold (Nov 11, 2009)

I would like to hear your thoughts and opinions on the form being used in these two videos:

*1.*





YouTube Video











*2.*





YouTube Video


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## PushAndPull (Nov 11, 2009)

Why is his feet so far back doing the behind the back smith machine?
As far as the "Big Black Golds" isn't the weight suppose to be pulled to the chest not the chest to the weights?
Overall he is way to jerky for me. In my expereinces when I have to jerk weight up like that, then the weight jerks back, that's when bad things happen(injury). Hope this makes sense -lol-
Basically I don't like his form.


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## urbanski (Nov 11, 2009)

dear lord, i'm surprised his spine hasnt popped out yet. thats awful


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## Triple Threat (Nov 11, 2009)

I think they're excellent examples of the way not to perform those 2 exercises.


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## Built (Nov 11, 2009)

The heavy T-bars Mason's doing are fine - his lower back doesn't round, he's using momentum (which is GOOD IMO when doing many rowing movements, including t-bars) and he's using low reps for that set, so his form isn't deteriorating while he tries to rep it out. 

The behind the back smith shrug in the other hand has "bad idea" written all over it. For anyone who values his or her rotator cuffs, I'd give that one a pass. IMO, like upright rows, there IS no good way to do that exercise.

My .02


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## min0 lee (Nov 11, 2009)

He is a big guy, imagine if he used proper form but with the same desire.
Sometimes I cheat at the end and get sloppy but he's way to sloppy.

Were those shoulder shrugs he was doing in the first video, he used his arms...sort of a behind the back sideways curl..


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## Arnold (Nov 11, 2009)

Built said:


> The heavy T-bars Mason's doing are fine - his lower back doesn't round, he's using momentum (which is GOOD IMO when doing many rowing movements, including t-bars) and he's using low reps for that set, so his form isn't deteriorating while he tries to rep it out.



I respectfully disagree completely. If he keeps that up he WILL have serious back issues, I am surprised he doesn't already. If you have to use that much momentum to  move the weight it's too HEAVY.


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## suprfast (Nov 11, 2009)

Prince said:


> I respectfully disagree completely. If he keeps that up he WILL have serious back issues, I am surprised he doesn't already. If you have to use that much momentum to  move the weight it's too HEAVY.



Im sure im talking out of my ass here, since you know way more than i do.  If what you are saying is true, wouldnt this also be the case with power/hang cleans?  Maybe a different movement altogether makes my claim false, but not every movement is done without momentum right.  
Feel free to educate me, im truly asking not trying to start a pissing match.  
kris


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## Phineas (Nov 11, 2009)

I'm surprised P-Funk isn't in on this yet.


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## Arnold (Nov 11, 2009)

suprfast said:


> Im sure im talking out of my ass here, since you know way more than i do.  If what you are saying is true, wouldnt this also be the case with power/hang cleans?  Maybe a different movement altogether makes my claim false, but not every movement is done without momentum right.
> Feel free to educate me, im truly asking not trying to start a pissing match.
> kris



They're completely different exercises with different goals, when you train for muscle and/or strength as a bodybuilder or even a powerlifter control is very important not only for the end result but to prevent injury, and even though momentum is being used in a clean, form and control are still present in the exercise. I am not saying a little bit of cheating on a heavy lift cannot be beneficial, I just think he is taking it way to far for ego purposes which is why he records himself and posts it all over the internet.


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## Phineas (Nov 11, 2009)

I can just see his splits in my head....

"Alright broskies, let's do it....

Monday - Biceps/Triceps/Abs/Ego
Wednesday - Biceps work in power cage/Triceps/More Biceps/Abs
Friday - Ego/Abs/Traps...and, of course, we can't forget biceps
*perhaps followed by some light stretching of only the pec...and, of course, we have to place our opposite hand on the pec being stretched and feel it..because this of course helps with the stretch
Saturday - a bunch half-rep leg extensions and leg curls (cause he's a well-balanced bodybuilder, you know??)

Awww dude, I'm gettin' stacked! Now, remember, diet is important, but not as important as working out. I mean, if you're not pounding heavy stacks you're not gettin' stacked, am I right dude??! But, still, make sure to get your protein. What's that? Nah bro, don't make food? Toss up a shake man! That's all ya' need. And, don't forget to bring your tapout shirt to the gym. And, always be sure to scream on every rep....even your first one. Oh, and how could I forget, smash the dumbbells together at the top of each rep....I mean, dude, how else do you expect to be noticed? I mean, sure, you can walk around pretending your lift up your shirt to wipe sweat off your face when you're really checking out your abs, you can do incline sit ups and throw punches at the top of each rep to make it look like you're a professional fighter when you're actually not, and you can most definitely stand right in front of the dumbbell rack swinging 50s with your friend "spotting" you on the curl when they're really lifting it for you...but no way bra..that's not good enough dude. If you wanna be noticed, you gotta be lift every 45 plate in the building in unhealthy movements. I mean, how else are you gonna impress those two hot chicks on the ellipticals? 

Oh, one more thing, how much do you bench? I actually don't care...I just wanted an opportunity to tell you how much I can bench."


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## danzik17 (Nov 11, 2009)

Goddamn horrendous form on both of those.


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## P-funk (Nov 11, 2009)

Phineas said:


> I'm surprised P-Funk isn't in on this yet.



Just got home.  

That is horrible shit.  I wouldn't pass either of those exercises as good form.

About the form on the t-bar being okay because his lower back is not rounding?  That is not a great conclusion to come to, considering that when the thoracic spine is in flexion like that the scapula is not in an appropriate position to depress and retract.

That is utter garbage.

patrick


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## Built (Nov 11, 2009)

I like to use a little momentum when I do T-bars, but I do 'em chest-supported and I don't do 'em like the vid. I was trying to play Devil's advocate. I still don't think Mason's T-bars were all that horrible, but I'll defer to the greater Gods on this point. Prince, your point is well-taken: 


Prince said:


> *I am not saying a little bit of cheating on a heavy lift cannot be beneficial, I just think he is taking it way to far for ego purposes* which is why he records himself and posts it all over the internet.



I still think the "Smith power shrugs" are a whole lot of "how horrible" combined with a whole lot more "why bother?".


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## Gazhole (Nov 12, 2009)

He isn't actually shrugging in those shrugs...he is behind the back upright rowing. Done properly that exercise is a bad choice, let alone done with that abysmal form!

The T-bars we've seen before and they're still hilarious


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## urbanski (Nov 12, 2009)

all i can say is his T-spine is very rounded on the "rows"...and i got my ass chewed by Patrick for doing the same on my DLs. 

so yeah, he's >< this close to a major injury. my coach has told me repeatedly that "ego lifting" is stupid and impresses nobody.


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## P-funk (Nov 12, 2009)

Built said:


> I like to use a little momentum when I do T-bars, but I do 'em chest-supported and I don't do 'em like the vid. I was trying to play Devil's advocate. I still don't think Mason's T-bars were all that horrible, but I'll defer to the greater Gods on this point. Prince, your point is well-taken:
> 
> 
> I still think the "Smith power shrugs" are a whole lot of "how horrible" combined with a whole lot more "why bother?".



Don't defer to anyone!  lol

You are allowed to have your own opinion on the technique of the exercise.  I just personally think that it is sloppy, the risk is greater than the reward (we can still herniate disks in the thoracic spine) and knowing what biomechanics tells us about the thoracic spine and scapula function, it isn't proper.

I am a fan of chest supported rows over any unsupported row.  However, I am not a fan of compensatory movement or jerking the weight up.  I just think when you start doing that, you start to get out of control and you lose the true value of the exercise in effort to put more weight on the bar.

patrick


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## Built (Nov 12, 2009)

Honestly, I hadn't really noticed the upward jerking of the movement (and I’m too lazy to watch the youtube again) - I was paying more attention to the position of his lower back because, well, that's MY problem area.

<…Does a quick mental tally: grade I anterolisthesis of L5 over S1, osteoarthritis, herniations and disc-hardening (C-spine) with the ensuing neurogenic pain down my left arm, labrum tears in both hips, patelofemoral syndrome in right knee, impingement syndrome in right shoulder due to broken clavicle (1986) and greater tuberosity (1995)... >

Fuck I'm a mess. <Immediately stops all exercise, takes up drinking, smoking and Krispy Kreme>

Anyway, thank you for that Patrick. I do feel there's merit to tossing around some heavy metal - loosening up your form a bit with rows can do a world of good - but as Prince identified, you need to know how much to let it loose. 

I don't jerk the weight UP when I do rows - but I do give it a little "English" to get the weight up. With the chest-support, this just means I put more glute and ham into it, neither of which are a bad thing to toss into a movement!

And believe me, I'm totally with you on the chest-support. I don't do any type of rows anymore without some sort of anterior support. Too hard on my lower back, even WITH the Inzer.


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## fufu (Nov 12, 2009)

Well the first video is disgusting.

The second video, the guy's thoracic spine is all sorts of rounded. 

He jerks/deadlifts the weight upwards with his hips, keeping his elbows slightly bent, then quickly shoots his torso forward and backward before the weight falls down again.

It's mostly an illusion of a row. 

I doubt the scapular retractors or upper pulling muscles are offering any significant control of the weight.


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## Merkaba (Nov 13, 2009)

I thought the shit looked awful, and typical. I thought his spine was way rounded on the T bars.  Just waiting for the split second to render him useless.


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## Arnold (Nov 13, 2009)

how's this for "siff legged deadlifts"? 






YouTube Video


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## Arnold (Nov 13, 2009)

okay, now this makes sense, here is a quote from the guy in the vids from 2008:



> *Back injury* -
> Well, I blew out my back on Wednesday. I have some numbness and weakness in my right leg as of now. I will be seeing a chiro on Monday. Not good... I am a bit depressed right now.


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## PushAndPull (Nov 13, 2009)

I know that exercise. It's called the "back breaker", not "stiff legged deadlifts". -lol- 
Sad that he had to hurt himself, but I highly doubt nobody has ever told him about how bad/dangerous his form is.


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## urbanski (Nov 13, 2009)

Prince said:


> okay, now this makes sense, here is a quote from the guy in the vids from 2008:



bingo. wonder what level he blew that disk at. 
glad there are folks like Patrick and Built out there that helped me with my form, or i'd be very screwed now.


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## Arnold (Dec 13, 2009)

we have another example of very bad form, please don't do this.






YouTube Video


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## urbanski (Dec 14, 2009)

oh thats awful. 
my DL used to look like that but Built and P-Funk squared me away.


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## min0 lee (Dec 14, 2009)

I just read the text comments and they are all said he's doing a great job. LOL.


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## ProMuscleRx.com (Dec 14, 2009)

that was a shrug??? explains why his traps arent really there


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## P-funk (Dec 14, 2009)

horrible.

just horrible.


patrick


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## fyredup1286 (Dec 14, 2009)

How do these people live with themselves????  wont b doing to much more living if they break their back first...


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## Freeman (Dec 14, 2009)

I honestly cannot believe what I'm seeing. I may not be any big dude, and I'm not that strong either really. But, I'm much happier knowing my form isn't THAT friggin bad. I'd rather lift a fraction of that with better form.


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## fufu (Dec 14, 2009)

That guy is no doubt extremely strong, but he is training stupidly. Give this man some knowledgeable training partners and he could be a great power lifter. 

Training hard does not equal training intelligently.


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## Arnold (Dec 14, 2009)

fufu said:


> That guy is no doubt extremely strong, but he is training stupidly. Give this man some knowledgeable training partners and he could be a great power lifter.
> 
> Training hard does not equal training intelligently.



I agree he is very strong, but if he keeps that up he won't be lifting weights too much longer.


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## DOMS (Dec 14, 2009)

Robert D. said:


> how's this for "siff legged deadlifts"?



I literally couldn't watch more than 10 seconds of that crap.  

I hereby dub that exercise _The Dumbass_.  

Good.  God.


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## T_man (Dec 14, 2009)

I heard my back crack just watching those videos


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