# Post Workout Nutrition........



## P-funk (Sep 12, 2006)

Okay, everyone seems to go back and forth on this....Should I spike my insulin levels or should I not?  Should I use high gylcemic carbs or should I use slower carbs?

The thing is, I have been looking over a number of studies.  Most people will remeber the study I posted 3 years ago, that I bumped up to the top just a week ago, and will provide it here for anyone else that wants to read or re-read it, showing that high glycemic carbs matter not immediatly post workout.  All the other studies I have looked over in the past 2 days show that carbohydrates have been proven to be effective post workout (DUH).  BUT, I can't seem to find any studies that actually test the validity of high glycemic carbs being better then any other carb source.

anyone have anything?  (please no personal points of view or articles that aren't referenced to peer reviewd journals, thanks).

-p


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## Tough Old Man (Sep 12, 2006)

P-funk said:


> Okay, everyone seems to go back and forth on this....Should I spike my insulin levels or should I not? Should I use high gylcemic carbs or should I use slower carbs?
> 
> The thing is, I have been looking over a number of studies. Most people will remeber the study I posted 3 years ago, that I bumped up to the top just a week ago, and will provide it here for anyone else that wants to read or re-read it, showing that high glycemic carbs matter not immediatly post workout. All the other studies I have looked over in the past 2 days show that carbohydrates have been proven to be effective post workout (DUH). BUT, I can't seem to find any studies that actually test the validity of high glycemic carbs being better then any other carb source.
> 
> ...


Shit Patrick I just read something last week that explains why you should have a higher glycemic carb for PWO. I'll go hunt and see if I can find it. Great question.


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## Tough Old Man (Sep 12, 2006)

This is not what your looking for but it has an interesting calc for carb intake PWO

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/pierce2.htm


This one is really good also

http://www.fitnessforoneandall.com/powerlifting/article/diet/post-workout/part_one.htm


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## Double D (Sep 12, 2006)

This is a question I have been wondering for a long time. And would love to get an answer to it.


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## drew_c (Sep 12, 2006)

Double D said:


> This is a question I have been wondering for a long time. And would love to get an answer to it.



Same here and finally finding the definitive answer to it would make my day. I've been trying to find the answer, amongst a million theories and opinions for quite awhile.. it's a bit frustrating

*subscribes to thread*


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## Double D (Sep 12, 2006)

Exactly I feel like I have been filling my mouth with uneeded sugar for nothing.


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## tucker01 (Sep 12, 2006)

Patrick I know you have probably looked at this thread before.

But just incase.

Ode to Oatmeal

There is a shit load of discussion about High and Lo gi carbs.  as well as studies thrown around.

Might want to take a peak


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## P-funk (Sep 12, 2006)

IainDaniel said:


> Patrick I know you have probably looked at this thread before.
> 
> But just incase.
> 
> ...





Oh snap!!  I read that thread a long long time ago....must have been years!  That is a great thread.  Good find.  I am going to dig into this one.


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## DOMS (Sep 12, 2006)

This may have what your looking for (I don't have time to read it).  The nice thing about T-Nation is that they usually have a bibliography (this one does).


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## P-funk (Sep 12, 2006)

yea, John B. put some references in there.  I will take a look at it.  thanks.


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## wilwn (Sep 12, 2006)

thought you weren't too big on berardi, p


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## P-funk (Sep 12, 2006)

wilwn said:


> thought you weren't too big on berardi, p



everyone has something to offer.

I would be an ass to totally dissmiss someone completely.

Sometimes I think he goes overboard with calorie intake and the volume of workouts.

But, he has some good info and a lot of it can be taken and applied to various people, if you just make it a little more individualized.

I do have his whole Percision Nutrition book and DVDs.  They are pretty good.


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## wilwn (Sep 12, 2006)

P-funk said:


> Sometimes I think he goes overboard with calorie intake and the volume of workouts.



you mean g-flux?


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## P-funk (Sep 12, 2006)

wilwn said:


> you mean g-flux?



yea, g-flux.

the idea sounds good on paper, and I have talked a lot here about accumulation/intensification and really ramping the volume up in that volume loading phase.  But, the g-flus stuff pushes it and he is always talking about how it works, but, elite athletes do nothing but train....they don't have the same outside stressors like others have (like the t-nation readers have).

Anyway, just my opinion.  he has more credentials then I, so you can take it for what it is worth.


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## DOMS (Sep 13, 2006)

Any luck with that article, P-funk?


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## P-funk (Sep 13, 2006)

DOMS said:


> Any luck with that article, P-funk?



what article?


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## DOMS (Sep 13, 2006)

this


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## P-funk (Sep 13, 2006)

oh, yea I read it.  I ahve read it before.

I have to set aside some time to look over the references.  I am super busy doing a bunch of other research projects.


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## Gordo (Sep 14, 2006)

Sorta related but not necessarily directed at PWO per se, but does address glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=460437
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=460450


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## P-funk (Sep 15, 2006)

*Been doing some more research*

Here are some studies that I will add to thread.  They studies on carbohydrate ingenstion during exercise.  For the most part they are things we already know, or things that we commonly say, but here are some studies just to back up what we already believe to be true.

Anantaraman R, Carmines AA, Gaesser GA, Weltman A., *Effects of carbohydrate supplementation on performance during 1 hour of high-intensity exercise*., International Journal of Sports Medicine, volume 16, number 7, pg 461-5, 1991.

The effects of carbohydrate supplementation on high-intensity exercise performance were examined in 5 moderately-trained subjects (age = 28.4 +/- 1.5 yr; ht = 171.0 +/- 4.3 cm; wt = 66.25 +/- 6.32 kg). High-intensity exercise tests (initiated at the power output (PO) associated with 90% VO2 peak [mean = 201 +/- 21 watts] x 60 min, with drop-off in PO allowed over time) were completed under the following randomized double blind conditions: 1) pre-exercise glucose polymer (G)/placebo during exercise (G/P), 2) G pre-exercise and during exercise (G/G), and 3) placebo pre-exercise and during exercise (P/P). Subjects ingested 300 ml of a sweetened placebo or a similarly flavored 10% G solution, immediately prior to and every 15 min during exercise. No differences were observed in PO among the 3 treatments until min 40-60 where PO was greater with G. This resulted in significantly greater total work (and less drop-off in PO) with G (G/P = 619 +/- 234kJ [14.5% lower than the value associated with 201 watts maintained for 60 min (724kJ)], G/G = 599 +/- 235 kJ [17.3% lower than the value associated with 201 watts maintained for 60 min]) compared with placebo (P/P = 560 +/- 198 kJ [22.7% drop-off in average PO]) (p < 0.05). VO2 followed a similar pattern with no difference in VO2 over min 0-40 and significantly higher VO2 in G/P and a trend for higher VO2 in G/G during min 40-60 compared to placebo. *Results of the present study indicate that, compared to placebo, pre-exercise ingestion of G (30 g in 10% solution) results in less drop-off in PO during 1 hour of high-intensity exercise performance, and that no further benefit is observed when the same amount of G is also ingested every 15 min during exercise.*

==================================================

[2] Sugiura K, Kobayashi K, *Effect of carbohydrate ingestion on sprint performance following continuous and intermittent exercise.*, Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, volume 30, number 11, 1624-30, 1998.

PURPOSE: This investigation was conducted to study the effects on sprint performance of glucose and fructose ingestion during a 15-min rest period half way through 90 min of continuous and intermittent exercise. On three occasions, eight subjects cycled at 76 +/- 2% VO2max for 90 min (continuous trials: CON trials) with a 15-min half-time break. METHODS: On another three occasions, they cycled for 90 min between moderate (65% VO2max) and high (100% VO2max) intensity (intermittent trials: INT trials) with the same half-time. In both trials, 90-min exercise was followed by a 40-s Wingate test to evaluate remaining sprint capacity. During half-time, they consumed either 20% glucose polymer (G), 20% fructose (F) or sweet placebo (P). Ingestion of G maintained plasma glucose levels, carbohydrate oxidation rate and lower value of ratings of perceived exertion (RPE) in both trials and indicated higher sprint performance compared with P (mean power of CON trials: 614.3 +/- 23.3 W vs 574.0 +/- 22.7 W, P < 0.001, INT trials: 629.5 +/- 27.6 W vs 596.3 +/- 25.5 W, P < 0.01). RESULTS: Ingestion of F showed similar effect in CON trials (603.8 +/- 26.1 W vs 574.0 +/- 22.7 W, P < 0.01) but had no positive effect in INT trials. Additionally, mean power of G was higher than F (629.5 +/- 27.6 W vs 598.4 +/- 34.2 W, P < 0.01) in INT trials. *CONCLUSIONS: These results indicated that ingestion of G during half-time of 90-min exercise could maintain carbohydrate utilization and improve sprint performance in both CON and INT trials.*


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## P-funk (Sep 15, 2006)

*Going further into it*

Okay, since Protein consumption (amino acid) is also relevant to this debate.  Here are some more studies.  Again, things we always say, but studies just to back it up.

Usually people consume a post workout protein shake (whey protein) with carbohydrate [1]. There is some research suggesting that even supplementing with some protein/carbohydrate pre-workout will enhance protein synthesis [2].


[1] Blake B. Rasmussen, Kevin D. Tipton, Sharon L. Miller, Steven E. Wolf, and Robert R. Wolfe, *An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise*, vol. 88, no. 2, 386-392, 2000.

This study was designed to determine the response of muscle protein to the bolus ingestion of a drink containing essential amino acids and carbohydrate after resistance exercise. Six subjects (3 men, 3 women) randomly consumed a treatment drink (6 g essential amino acids, 35 g sucrose) or a flavored placebo drink 1 h or 3 h after a bout of resistance exercise on two separate occasions. We used a three-compartment model for determination of leg muscle protein kinetics. The model involves the infusion of ring-2H5-phenylalanine, femoral arterial and venous blood sampling, and muscle biopsies. Phenylalanine net balance and muscle protein synthesis were significantly increased above the predrink and corresponding placebo value (P < 0.05) when the drink was taken 1 or 3 h after exercise but not when the placebo was ingested at 1 or 3 h. *The response to the amino acid-carbohydrate drink produced similar anabolic responses at 1 and 3 h. Muscle protein breakdown did not change in response to the drink. We conclude that essential amino acids with carbohydrates stimulate muscle protein anabolism by increasing muscle protein synthesis when ingested 1 or 3 h after resistance exercise.*


[2]Kevin D. Tipton, Blake B. Rasmussen, Sharon L. Miller, Steven E. Wolf, Sharla K. Owens-Stovall, Bart E. Petrini, and Robert R. Wolfe, *Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise*, American Journal of Endocrinological Metabolism, vol. 28, no. 2, pg 197-206, 2001.

he present study was designed to determine whether consumption of an oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement (EAC) before exercise results in a greater anabolic response than supplementation after resistance exercise. Six healthy human subjects participated in two trials in random order, PRE (EAC consumed immediately before exercise), and POST (EAC consumed immediately after exercise). A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine, femoral arteriovenous catheterization, and muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis were used to determine phenylalanine concentrations, enrichments, and net uptake across the leg. Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations were increased by ~130% after drink consumption in both trials. Amino acid delivery to the leg was increased during exercise and remained elevated for the 2 h after exercise in both trials. Delivery of amino acids (amino acid concentration times blood flow) was significantly greater in PRE than in POST during the exercise bout and in the 1st h after exercise (P < 0.05). Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg was greater (P = 0.0002) during PRE (209 ± 42 mg) than during POST (81 ± 19). Phenylalanine disappearance rate, an indicator of muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids, increased after EAC consumption in both trials. *These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.*


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## Witchblade (Sep 15, 2006)

Ingesting a shake pre-workout instead of post... interesting. That seems to contradict 90% of the fitness world's advice that you should take a post-workout shake. The test was only done with 6 subjects too.

Then again, 90% of the fitness world is retarded, heh.


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## P-funk (Sep 15, 2006)

Witchblade said:


> Ingesting a shake pre-workout instead of post... interesting. That seems to contradict 90% of the fitness world's advice that you should take a post-workout shake. The test was only done with 6 subjects too.
> 
> Then again, 90% of the fitness world is retarded, heh.



it really makes the case for splitting your shake up...before, during and after the workout.

make the shake and sip it all the way through.


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## emunah (Sep 18, 2006)

That Tipton study includes FASTED subjects for the post-workout time period.

Most of us do not train fasted.

However, I do agree that pre workout meals are more important.  Even a fast acting whey takes 60-90 minutes to hit the muscle.  If you have a good pre-workout meal before training, that should coincide nicely with that time point.


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## P-funk (Sep 18, 2006)

Tipton study?

Got a reference?


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## MCx2 (Sep 18, 2006)

P-funk said:


> Tipton study?
> 
> Got a reference?


 

I think she is refering to your post:



> [2]Kevin D. Tipton, Blake B. Rasmussen, Sharon L. Miller, Steven E. Wolf, Sharla K. Owens-Stovall, Bart E. Petrini, and Robert R. Wolfe, *Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise*, American Journal of Endocrinological Metabolism, vol. 28, no. 2, pg 197-206, 2001.
> 
> he present study was designed to determine whether consumption of an oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement (EAC) before exercise results in a greater anabolic response than supplementation after resistance exercise. Six healthy human subjects participated in two trials in random order, PRE (EAC consumed immediately before exercise), and POST (EAC consumed immediately after exercise). A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine, femoral arteriovenous catheterization, and muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis were used to determine phenylalanine concentrations, enrichments, and net uptake across the leg. Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations were increased by ~130% after drink consumption in both trials. Amino acid delivery to the leg was increased during exercise and remained elevated for the 2 h after exercise in both trials. Delivery of amino acids (amino acid concentration times blood flow) was significantly greater in PRE than in POST during the exercise bout and in the 1st h after exercise (P < 0.05). Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg was greater (P = 0.0002) during PRE (209 ± 42 mg) than during POST (81 ± 19). Phenylalanine disappearance rate, an indicator of muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids, increased after EAC consumption in both trials. *These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.*


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## tucker01 (Sep 18, 2006)

P-funk said:


> Okay, since Protein consumption (amino acid) is also relevant to this debate.  Here are some more studies.  Again, things we always say, but studies just to back it up.
> 
> Usually people consume a post workout protein shake (whey protein) with carbohydrate [1]. There is some research suggesting that even supplementing with some protein/carbohydrate pre-workout will enhance protein synthesis [2].
> 
> ...


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## P-funk (Sep 18, 2006)

Oh, lol...I wasn't aware that she was talking about something that was referenced above....lol


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## CowPimp (Sep 18, 2006)

I'm at work now on a little break between clients.  Maybe this weekend I'll see what I can dig up.  I do recall reading that pre-workout supplementation is just as important, if not more important, than post-workout nutrition based on a couple of studies.  I think it was a referenced T-Nation article.  Maybe even one of those posted already.


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## wilwn (Sep 18, 2006)

CowPimp said:


> I'm at work now on a little break between clients.  Maybe this weekend I'll see what I can dig up.  I do recall reading that pre-workout supplementation is just as important, if not more important, than post-workout nutrition based on a couple of studies.  I think it was a referenced T-Nation article.  Maybe even one of those posted already.



i think it was a david barr article.


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## CowPimp (Sep 18, 2006)

This article that was just posted on EliteFTS has some interesting insight from a strength coach:

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/protein_timing.htm


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## tucker01 (Oct 29, 2006)

some more



> Independent and combined effects of liquid carbohydrate/essential amino acid ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training in untrained men.
> 
> Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, Marino FE.
> 
> ...



and



> * Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects *
> 
> * René Koopman,1  Anton J. M. Wagenmakers,4  Ralph J. F. Manders,1  Antoine H. G. Zorenc,1  Joan M. G. Senden,1  Marchel Gorselink,3  Hans A. Keizer,2  and  Luc J. C. van Loon1,2 * _ Departments of 1Human Biology and 2Movement Sciences, Nutrition Research Institute Maastricht, Maastricht University, Maastricht; 3Numico Research BV, Wageningen, The Netherlands; and 4School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Birmingham, United Kingdom _
> Submitted  1 September 2004  ; accepted in final form 22 November 2004
> ...


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## tucker01 (Oct 29, 2006)

> Eur J Appl Physiol. 2006 Aug;97(6):664-72. Epub 2005 Oct 29.
> 
> Effects of dietary leucine supplementation on exercise performance.
> 
> ...


.


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## tucker01 (Oct 29, 2006)

> *    Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise  *
> 
> *  Kevin D.  Tipton1,2, Blake B.  Rasmussen1,2, Sharon L.  Miller1,2, Steven E.  Wolf1, Sharla K.  Owens-Stovall1, Bart E.  Petrini1, and Robert R.  Wolfe1,2  *  1 Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, and 2 Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children, Galveston, Texas 77550
> 
> ...


.


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## CowPimp (Oct 29, 2006)

Cool studies there Iain!  Looks like Leucine might potentially be the next item to spawn countless ergogenic supplements.


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## tucker01 (Feb 21, 2008)

Bump.  

some more good reading.


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## DaMayor (Feb 21, 2008)

*"Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise" *


Back to Pat's original question. While most of these studies have determined the benefits of ingesting CHO+EAA pre vs. post workout, unless I missed something big (very possible) they never really addressed the *quality *or GI values of the carbohydrates ingested. 
In other words, 
A.) what is the "window of opportunity" for optimal protein synthesis? (e.g., a matter of minutes? Hours?) 
B.) based on this period of time which type of carbohydrate would be best suited for repair/recovery?
C.) is the carb. type used important at all as long as the CHO/EAA combination is being taken in pre, during, and post workout?

Just wonderin'


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## DaMayor (Feb 21, 2008)

I just responded to a bumped two-year-old thread.


Yeah, I'd say I missed something.


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