# Need some advice, not losing fat!!!



## BigRedCat (Aug 2, 2003)

Hi,
I recently found this board and it looks pretty cool. I am in need of some advice. Here is a little background on me:

I have been on Elite and other boards for years so I am not a newbie by any means but for the past 2 years I have not been able to drop fat. I eat very clean and have my workouts in order yet no fat loss. I am starting to think I may have Hypothyroidism. I have been through some extremely stressful times the past couple years(including very bad sciatica/piriformis syndrome) so I assume my cortisol levels are through the roof. I started taking PS(Phosphatidylserine) last week in hopes of lowering my cortisol levels. I also started taking Piracetam and choline a couple weeks ago and that has helped me keep my mood level and has improved my outlook in general. 

I am 30 years old, 5'11" and have been fluctuating between 187-194 pounds for the past two years. My bodyfat is an estimated 15-18%(calipers). I just cant seem to lose that waist fat. My waist was 32" just over two years ago and I blimped up to 35-36" which is how it has stayed since. I can really tell my metabolism has slowed. I used to work outside at a manual labor type job in the hot sun so that probably kept my fat down but now I work at a call center sitting on my ass all day. Plus, I use to train martial arts all the time when I was younger and have not had the time to do that the past few years. I have tried all sorts of differant low carb approaches,anabolic diet,T-Dawg diet etc with no real results. I still eat low carb but without any fat loss. I have gotten stronger over the past few years but no fat loss. Here is an example of a days diet for me:

1 scoop low carb Isopure
1 cup oats
piracetam
choline
PS(400mg)
multi-vitamin
Labrada charge 

1 can low sodium tuna
1 slice flax seed bread(sometimes I just eat the tune by itself)

small salad with 1oz feta cheese, bacon bits and 1 tbsp of oil and vinegar dressing
1 scoop low carb isopure
labrada charge
Piracetam
PS(400mg)

Filet Mignon with 1 cup green beans
salad with 1oz feta cheese, bacon bits and 1 tbsp or oil and vinegar dressing

1 scoop low carb isopure
1 tbsp of natty pb pr small amount of mixed nuts.

I try to keep it around 2200 cals a day. 

I try and drink a gallon of water a day if possible and I usually have 1-2 cheat meals on the weekends. The only time I drink alcohol is 1-2 drinks on the weekends. I used to drink allot when I was younger and never added a pound of fat. Now if I did that I would be a huge fat ass! 

As for my workout, I have been doing the following:

3 day split weights, 3-4 days cardio(1 longer slow session and 2-3 HITT).

Am I doing something wrong? Do I have a thyroid problem? I am getting frustrated since I have been busting my ass in the gym and eating clean for a long time with no visible results at all. Hell, even my arms have stayed at 16.5", I just feel like I am wasting my time or something isn't right. Should I hit cardio 6 days a week or what? I am open to whatever needs to be done at this point. 

Any advice would be VERY VERY appreciated. 
-BigRedCat


p.s.- sorry such a long ass post!!


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## Jodi (Aug 3, 2003)

No don't do more cardio you are only going to lost LBM with that much cardio.  Remember each pound of muscle burns up to 50 more calories a day.  Cardio is not going to make you leaner.  

I can see where we can make some changes but the first thing I need to know from you is what kind of plan would you like to follow.  

High Protein/Low Carb/Mod Fat
Hight Protein/Mod Carb/Mod Fat
Mod Protein/Mod Carb/Low Fat

I can help you work up something but first I need to know your preference.


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## BigRedCat (Aug 3, 2003)

Hi Jodi, thanks for the response. It doesn't matter to me really. I have tried all three. I prefer hi pro,mod carb,mod fat. A couple weeks ago I tried eating nothing but shakes and udo's. I did it for 5 days. I would probably have to do that for a week to see any results.


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## BigRedCat (Aug 5, 2003)

Well, any ideas for a sample diet? I am thinking I should cut down to 1800 cals a day and see if that helps. What do you think?


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## Jodi (Aug 5, 2003)

No I don't do sample diets but I did work something up for you.

You could try 40/40/20

2280 Cals
Protein: 228G
Carbs: 228
Fat: 50

Divide that up into 5 meals per day preferby the last meal of the day consisting of only protein and fat.


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## BigRedCat (Aug 5, 2003)

That is the ratio and amounts I have been already running for months, which is why I am thinking about dropping the cals furthur.


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## Par Deus (Aug 5, 2003)

Read my leptin/fed state articles:

http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.ph...eID=3&pageID=51

http://www.avantlabs.com/page.php?pageID=150&issueID=14

The first is about 1.5 years old, so I no longer agree 100% with everything, but it gives a very good introduction to the concepts.

The second one is only 2 months old and reflects my current views.


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## BigRedCat (Aug 5, 2003)

Thanks Par Deus, I didn't know you were on this board, I have seen you on Elite. The first link doesn't work but the second one does. Any other advice for me? Do you think I should get a thyroid test?


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## Par Deus (Aug 5, 2003)

I don't think a thyroid test would be a bad idea, at all.

As for the link that does not work:

http://www.avantlabs.com/page.php?pageID=95&issueID=14

Go down to Issue # 3


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## crackerjack414 (Aug 5, 2003)

honestly bro id bulk for a while then dietin down again to shock your body into doing what u want it to


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## BigRedCat (Aug 5, 2003)

No, I need to lose this fat before I bulk. I hate being this fat, it destroys my confidence. I have never really had any substantial fat until the past couple years. A 36" waist is 3" too big for me! There has to be a reason I have been unable to lose this fat. Seeing as I have been living through some major stress I suspect it has to do with my cortisol level and my lowered metabolism. I used to be one of those guys that said things like  "I could never get fat, look at me, I am skinny!"

Karma's a bitch! I could go on the MDMA/dance all night diet! ha.


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## firebat (Aug 6, 2003)

what happens if you do nothing but cardio?  youd lose all the fat but you would be weak?


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## Jodi (Aug 6, 2003)

Just the opposite, you'd lose all the muscle and still retain alot of fat.


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## BigRedCat (Aug 6, 2003)

Spot on Jodi! I have tried that, lost some muscle and not enough fat to make it noticeable. If I did major cardio and no lifting I would drop fat eventually, along with all the muscle I have. I would be a skinny 160 pounder! I would rather lift than do cardio(like most of us). I have been doing HITT cardio at night. I dont do cardio 1st thing when I wake up, does it make that much differance WHEN you do it? I work at night so I work out after work. Is working out/doing cardio later at night hampering my progress? I dont see how it could but you never know.


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## Jenny (Aug 6, 2003)

You get a better "afterburn" with morning workouts, it will speed up metabolism a bit for several hours. If you do it at night, only a few hours before bed you don't get that same effect since your body will cut that off as soon as you fall asleep..

Your glycogen is also lower in the morning after a whole night of sleeping and the body will use fat from fat stores sooner.

At least this is what I've been taught, opinions welcome


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## Jodi (Aug 6, 2003)

IMO, I don't think it matters.  Calories burned are calories burned.    I never do cardio in the morning because 1. I'm too freakin hungry to wait an hour and 2.  I'm way too tired and the last thing on my mind is running.  I'm still reaching for the coffee.  I prefer to w/o (including cardio) at night.  Thats just me though


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## Jenny (Aug 6, 2003)

Well no, no major difference  And if you're doing your cardio after weights the glycogen levels will be pretty low anyway..


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## Par Deus (Aug 6, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BigRedCat *_
> No, I need to lose this fat before I bulk. I hate being this fat, it destroys my confidence. I have never really had any substantial fat until the past couple years. A 36" waist is 3" too big for me! There has to be a reason I have been unable to lose this fat. Seeing as I have been living through some major stress I suspect it has to do with my cortisol level and my lowered metabolism. I used to be one of those guys that said things like  "I could never get fat, look at me, I am skinny!"
> 
> Karma's a bitch! I could go on the MDMA/dance all night diet! ha.



In addition to the leptin stuff that has been mentioned, cortisol could indeed be your problem, as it promotes adipocyte differentiation and triglyceride storage, particularly in visceral adipose tissue (which your waist size indicates you might have a fair amount of), and to a lesser extent, SubQ abdominal fat.

In addition, previous drug use would make you hypersensitive to to stress (i.e. higher cortisol output) , as well as insensitive to the negative feedback inhibition for shutting it off.

If it is not pimping too much, I will mention that our Ab-Solved product is specifically designed to target this problem (the active ingredient, 7-oxo-DHEA, inhibits conversion of inactive cortisone to active cortisol)


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## OceanDude (Aug 14, 2003)

I can relate to this guy so much, similar stats to me. It sucks being lean all your life then waking up like rip van winkle somewhere in mid life to find out you gained a bunch of new belt sizes. Welcome to the club. I am playing pure odds here but I bet it???s a combination of:
1) Stress
2) Insulin Insensitivity
3) Metabolic slow down

Probably in that order of influence.

Life is stressful. Working long hours , putting up with bad clients and bad bosses and paying bills is stressful. Going to a desk job from your prior active job is like going from a moderately high activity level to a semi-couch potato activity level. If you made no changes to your other factors just getting that desk job probably contributed an equivalent of 7-10 lbs of fat gain per year ??? minimum. Throw in the fact you are now older and have lost at least 5-10 lbs of lean mass means you have automatically gained another hunk of fat (5 more lbs minimum). It only accelerates downhill from here unless you act. Right now your strategy needs to be to ???hold the line??? and get more lean tissue to recruit for you metabolically. That means resistance training, good nutrition and plenty of rest. Then you might as well start thinking long term to get the fat off and keep it off. Don???t mean to scare you but figure on a year of deliberate sustained effort. But think of it also as getting your youth and vitality back and improving your quality of life. Frankly, your life depends on it. I have been there believe me (lost 54 lbs of fat and gained 16 lbs muscle in 6 months) you got to keep at it and fight for every lb. The good news is you lose a pant size for about every 4 lbs of fat you lose and your self esteem will soar and help motivate you to continue and intensify.

Specific recommendations : 
1) Start planning every meal (write it down and cook up enough ahead of time for a few days if you needs to).
2) Resistance training at least 3 days per week, with HIIT and some cardio (but take days off now and then to rest or you will over train and burn out)
3) Find ways to reduce stress and get plenty of sleep. 
4) Make complex carbs and fiber an integral part of your diet and make sure you get enough EFAs
5) Go to doctor and see if you are pre-diabetic or insulin insensitive ??? most people are if carrying fat on the waist and are not very heavy.


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## JerseyPunk (Aug 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> Just the opposite, you'd lose all the muscle and still retain alot of fat.



For real? Wow that could be a problem with me.. I have been running/biking/swimming everyday. I haven't seen a real loss of muscle, but not much an increase. And, now I think of it, I have reatained some fat and have been wondering why. What is suggested cardio to lose fat weight but not lbm?


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## Jodi (Aug 14, 2003)

2 HIIT Sessions per week 20 mins and 

1 30 mins. Traditional Cardio

Nobody needs anymore than this.  Do a search on HIIT


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## JerseyPunk (Aug 14, 2003)

hiit stands for what? I searched but everyone uses the abbrev.


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## Jodi (Aug 15, 2003)

High Intensity Interval Training


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## Trump (Aug 15, 2003)

> you'd lose all the muscle and still retain alot of fat.



What kind of cardiovascular training do you think Lance Armstrong takes part in?

He isn't bulging with muscle, but in no way 'fat'.


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## OceanDude (Aug 15, 2003)

People need to realize the difference between "starting" fat and "starting" lean. The best thing is to not get fat. Do not forget Lance was near death from Cancer and was probably emaciated by that before he made his recovery (acutally an argument for why you want "some" fat in case you get sick and layed up in the hospital - it will keep you alive). It is much harder to lose fat once you have lost lean body mass than it is to get fat from a previously lean condition when you are eating good for a given activity level.


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## BigRedCat (Aug 29, 2003)

I bought Tom Venuto's e-book and it has some great info in there. It is pretty much the things I have known all along but he really does have a massive amount of good info packed in his book. I have been eating as he suggests(40/40/20) and doing 4 days weights/6 days cardio(mostly HITT after weights and then a couple 30 minute sessions of medium cardio). I have been staying around 187-189 so I seem to be dropping fat although my waist is still around 36". I have been taking PS to keep cortisol in check and have been taking a couple Labrada Charge pills a day to help keep the metabolism going. I will keep plugging away and I should see results soon.


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## chelebcm (Aug 29, 2003)

Have your thyroid checked!  Your doctor can test your "TSH" (thyroid stimulating hormone) which I understand should ideally be between 1.0 and 2.0 for weight loss.  I have very similar stats to yours ??? 32yo, 5???11, 197 today.  Two years ago I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism.  At the time I blamed my 6-month 25lb weight gain and sluggish mood on a lifestyle change - grad school, a new city, a changing diet and fewer workouts.

Since going on my once daily pill for the hypothyroidism I've dropped 15lbs.  I can't say it's totally from getting my thyroid in order however!  Based on my experiences and the weight I've managed to lose I would say the thyroid was 5lbs of the weight loss...the remaining 10 I've lost has mostly been due to returning to my old lifestyle! i.e. 'feeling better' (thyroid does affect mood and energy levels), returning to my workouts, getting my diet in order (no more pizzas, NY cocktails) and lowering my stress.   

With that said - my thyroid has been in the normal range for some time now, I???ve been eating about 2,000 calories and these last 10lbs are a bitch!  Diet/calorie suggestions/experience follow:

1. Have your thyroid checked (test is called ???TSH???), get it in order if necessary, then count the calories???

2. BMR calculations are crap with a standard error of 20%!  I???ve been to dozens of sites, obsessively calculated my basal metabolic rate several ways and the number is always about 2,000 calories.  But considering the error my (our) BMR may actually be as low as 1,600 or as high as 2,400.  The only way to know is to track your own activity and cardio for a week or two and check the weight/fat change...

I think we may both benefit from dropping to 1,800 calories for a week or two to see what happens.  That???s my two cents???I would throw some early-day sweet potatoes in your diet (yum!)

Much success!


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## naturalguy (Sep 2, 2003)

BigRedCat,

       First off what is happening to you is common with people on low carb diets, they only work in the short term.

       Your answer lies in your original post, you were more active before, now you are older and less active.

       You need to do cardio to increase your activity and give your body a reason to burn it's stored bodyfat. I would also introduce carbs back in your diet however do so slowly being that you have been on a reduced carb diet.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by naturalguy *_
> First off what is happening to you is common with people on low carb diets, they only work in the short term.



1) Define short term.

2) Define "work" -- are you referring to the ability to lose fat, or the ability to maintain a fat loss?

3) Please explain why this is so.


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## naturalguy (Sep 2, 2003)

1. short term would be a few weeks 

2. "work" to most people is losing weight, on low carb diet you lose water initially then a combo of fat/muscle.

3. They only "work" in the short term for the reasons above (water, muscle loss), most people cannot stay on low carb diets long term anyway (discipline) and who would want to? They are good for "scale" weight loss. Low energy levels and you don't have the ability to train "balls to the wall" as well are other reasons.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 2, 2003)

Ah, so your "opinions" are nothing more than that.


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## naturalguy (Sep 2, 2003)

Here we go again................it is not "opinion" it is through experience.


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## naturalguy (Sep 2, 2003)

TP instead of trying to disprove me again, why don't we try and help this nice gentelman who started this thread.


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## Mudge (Sep 2, 2003)

> 3. They only "work" in the short term for the reasons above (water, muscle loss), most people cannot stay on low carb diets long term anyway (discipline) and who would want to? They are good for "scale" weight loss. Low energy levels and you don't have the ability to train "balls to the wall" as well are other reasons.



I run 60g carbs a day @ 215 pounds down from 231, and I have zero problems with energy levels and my strength has remained the same. When I take out 100% of my carbs during an experiment about 5 months ago I did have energy problems for the first week.


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## Jodi (Sep 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> I run 60g carbs a day @ 215 pounds down from 231, and I have zero problems with energy levels and my strength has remained the same. When I take out 100% of my carbs during an experiment about 5 months ago I did have energy problems for the first week.


Mudge you and I must be freaks of nature or something because according to Naturalguy this is not possible.   To take it a step further for some odd and unexplainable reason I was able to gain 10lbs of LBM on a low carb diet.  Guess I'm a freak


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## naturalguy (Sep 2, 2003)

Here we go again..................... I never said it wasn't possible, there are many ways to skin a cat. It is definately not the most effecient. And how did you measure your 10lbs gain? How long ago did you start resistance training?

When you don't eat carbs your body still gets glucose by converting your protein into it, that is a pretty expensive and inefficient way to get glucose.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by naturalguy *_
> Here we go again..................... I never said it wasn't possible, there are many ways to skin a cat. It is definately not the most effecient. And how did you measure your 10lbs gain? How long ago did you start resistance training?
> 
> When you don't eat carbs your body still gets glucose by converting your protein into it, that is a pretty expensive and inefficient way to get glucose.



Yes, we all know about gluconeogenisis.  

But you help no one, and hurt many, whan you make factually inaccurate statements that reflect hard and fast "rules" that are opinion.

Your fault is not your intent but your opinions.



> low carb diets, they only work in the short term.



If this was true, then NO ONE in teh entire world would ever lose fat for more than a few weeks.  Do you see the error in this statement?  I even gave you the chance to clarify your point and you wrote:



> 1. short term would be a few weeks
> 
> 2. "work" to most people is losing weight, on low carb diet you lose water initially then a combo of fat/muscle.



Then you went on to say many other silly things.

Personally, I am not a huge fan of ketogenic diets though I do recognize there ability to help many succeed, and for some perhaps even provide the most efficient route.

Its your rigidity that is the problem.


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## naturalguy (Sep 2, 2003)

If it really worked wonders for losing bodyfat and building muscle wouldn't everyone on the Atkins (just using this one as an example) get the results they want? Why is it that 98% of these people gain their weight back plus?

Please educate me.


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## Mudge (Sep 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by naturalguy *_
> Why is it that 98% of these people gain their weight back plus?



Human failure IMO, without question, just like a cold-turkey "ex smoker."


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## Twin Peak (Sep 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by naturalguy *_
> If it really worked wonders for losing bodyfat and building muscle wouldn't everyone on the Atkins (just using this one as an example) get the results they want? Why is it that 98% of these people gain their weight back plus?
> 
> Please educate me.



You have a keen ability for selective observation.  Anyone who loses fat on any diet will gain it back, and then some, should they return to old eating habits.

This occurs with 98% of anyone who loses weight on any diet.  It is no fault of the diet.

I know plenty of Atkins lifers who could show you otherwise.

Again though, I am not a fan of the Atkins diet per se.  Though certainly you could lose a ton of fat on it, as well as gain muscle.


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## naturalguy (Sep 2, 2003)

Right! my point exactly, no one is staying on that type of program long term.

Please tell us why you don't like it?


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## Mudge (Sep 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by naturalguy *_
> Right! my point exactly, no one is staying on that type of program long term.



So your saying that nobody has dicipline? Nice way to tell people they are setting themselves up for failure. This is why I allow myself a cheat, I can hang the rest of the week with no problems.


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## naturalguy (Sep 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> So your saying that nobody has dicipline? Nice way to tell people they are setting themselves up for failure. This is why I allow myself a cheat, I can hang the rest of the week with no problems.




No, no, I am not saying that people don't have discipline, that type of diet (keto) is extremely hard to stay on because your body is going to fight it, it needs and wants carbs. If you read the Atkins book, the good doctor himself tells you not to stay on it too long.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 2, 2003)

Reread what I wrote.  People don't stay on ANY diet long term.  At least most people.  America is fatter than ever.  In my experience, I have seen people succeed, and fail, and just about any diet.

Why don't I like it?  I don't like it for MOST people.  I do recognize it is a god0send for many.

Why?

1)  I think there are more highly advanced ketogenic diets for the athleticly minded.  CKD, TKD, and NHE to name a few.

2)  I think many people will in fact have a hard time sticking to it.  I think many others will find it easy.

3)  A ketogenic diet requires calorically dense foods.  For me, to prove satiety I end up consuming more than I need, to lose.

4)  I prefer cycling my carbohydrate use, for a variety of reasons.  If you care to know why, read my article when its out, on Thursday.

None of that is meant to suggest that a true ketogenic diet is useless to all.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by naturalguy *_
> If you read the Atkins book, the good doctor himself tells you not to stay on it too long.



Again, a misquote, or poor comprehension.


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## naturalguy (Sep 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Again, a misquote, or poor comprehension.




If you are going to tell me I am wrong, please prove it at least. He says it in the book that you slowly have to introduce carbs back in, unless you missed that part.

You wouldn't know it from our posts however you and I agree on our diet theories, I also believe in cycling carbs however I do it differently from you.


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## Jodi (Sep 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by naturalguy *_
> Here we go again..................... I never said it wasn't possible, there are many ways to skin a cat. It is definately not the most effecient. And how did you measure your 10lbs gain? How long ago did you start resistance training?
> 
> When you don't eat carbs your body still gets glucose by converting your protein into it, that is a pretty expensive and inefficient way to get glucose.


Just to clarify I have not been on a ketogenic diet but a low carb diet before TP's carb cycling.

I am 10lbs heavier than I was last year, yet I'm leaner than I was last year.  Proven so by skin folds, measurements, appearance and scale.  I've been training for about 4 years.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 2, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by naturalguy *_
> If you are going to tell me I am wrong, please prove it at least. He says it in the book that you slowly have to introduce carbs back in, unless you missed that part.



However, he ALWAYS wants you to remain in a ketogenic state.  WHile he has different levels of his diet depending on your state of fatness, he recommends ketosis for life.  He states that how much carbs one can consume and remain in ketosis varies from person to person.  So your assessment that long term ketosis is unhealthy, AND that the late Dr. Atkins agreed with this is unfounded.




> _*Originally posted by naturalguy *_You wouldn't know it from our posts however you and I agree on our diet theories, I also believe in cycling carbs however I do it differently from you.



I'd be interested in hearing how you do this.  I'd also be curious on an input you had, aftre reading my article.  Though I must admit, I was looking forward to you tearing it apart.


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## naturalguy (Sep 2, 2003)

I do look forward to your article.

Here is what I do when I am leaning out:

On days that I train (lifting) I eat more starchy carbs around my workouts, an hour and a half before training, immediately after and the next meal after that. At other meals of the day it is fibrous carbs (veggies) with one exception and that is at breakfast I always have oatmeal, amounts will change depending on where I am in the fat burning process and my condition. I do this 4 days per week.

On non training days except for breakfast it is fibrous carbs with all meals. 

So 4 days per week it is higher calories/higher carbs and the other 3 are lower. I eat around my training for energy to train as hard as I can (and that is intense) and for recovery.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 2, 2003)

Certainly a viable approach.  Very similar to a TKD, though it sounds like you probably eat enough carbs to stay out of ketosis.


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## Robboe (Sep 2, 2003)

And yet he still gets keto-induced "brain fog".

Interesting...


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## Jodi (Sep 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by SolidToTheCORE *_
> I feel so much better. NG  I thought I was the only one who disagrees with you.
> 
> Jodi, I am curious why did you recommend that BigRedCat, not eat his carbs before bedtime. I am sure NG wants to know.


 

Solid - Its my own personal experience.  If I eat carbs around bedtime I not only feel like shit the next day but I feel it hinders my fat loss.  I've tried several plans with low carb diets and one that I experience the least amount of fat loss is the one that requires me to carb up at my last meal of the day.    I've heard many people say carbs at night are fine and on the other hand I hear several say they are not.  From my experience and several members on board we prefer to keep our carbs in the first 5 meals of the day and save the last meal for protein and fat.  Sorry, no science behind it, not theroies, no studies, no reason, this is just a preference and my opinion


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## naturalguy (Sep 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by SolidToTheCORE *_
> There is science and studies to back your opinions up. I am in the process of finding a published article or study to post. You and I are on the same page. I have seen studies that support. I just have to find it and post the PROOF.



I would love to see but I don't think you'll find any, you may find something about sedentary people eating alot of carbs at night but you won't find a study on bodybuilders or athletes.

Like Jodi said no science behind it, just another myth that is past down from person to person.


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## naturalguy (Sep 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by SolidToTheCORE *_
> NG-- I wish you would shut up. I am going to USC med lab this week I WILL find a study that was done concerning carbs being metabolized during sleep or RMR. It is not a doubt. I have read this study before. I just need to find it. So, for the time being. Just shut up, Thank You.




ok, when you are ready to have an intelligent, mature conversation we will talk.


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## SolidToTheCORE (Sep 3, 2003)

enough for now?


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## naturalguy (Sep 3, 2003)

Solid,

      Your statement says nothing about bodybuilders and training at night. Of course I agree that you should not eat alot of carbs if you are not being active HOWEVER many people train at night and not all carbs are the same.

     The problem is many people on this board throwing out blanket statements such as "lower your carbs" or "don't eat carbs at night" without knowing all the factors about people. I have seen this advice given alot where people will make this claim without knowing what time of day somebody workouts out!

Furthermore like I stated above you are not going to find any studies done on bodybuilders or athletes as it relates to nightime carb consumption. Studies done on sedentary or obese people do not apply to bodybuilders.


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## Robboe (Sep 3, 2003)

If NG is saying that providing overall calories are in check, carbs before bed are fine, i am in agreement with him.


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## Jodi (Sep 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by naturalguy *_
> I would love to see but I don't think you'll find any, you may find something about sedentary people eating alot of carbs at night but you won't find a study on bodybuilders or athletes.
> 
> Like Jodi said no science behind it, just another myth that is past down from person to person.


You don't need science when you know what works for you.  There are too many opinions, statement etc.  The key is finding what works and for me carbs at night don't work and I know I'm not the only one that feels this way.  Why can't accept the fact that we all have our own views and experiences.   I do know for a fact my body slows down towards the evening as do many others so we choose not to indulge in carbs for possible fat storage.

I say try everything and find what works.


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## naturalguy (Sep 3, 2003)

Jodi,

      My whole point from day 1 is that I read these posts where people come for advice and they are given these blanket statements without knowing all the factors involved. I do understand that everyone is an individual and I do respect what works and doesn't work for you. My concern is the newbie on here coming for advice and they should know all the facts.


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## Jodi (Sep 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by naturalguy *_
> Jodi,
> 
> My whole point from day 1 is that I read these posts where people come for advice and they are given these blanket statements without knowing all the factors involved. I do understand that everyone is an individual and I do respect what works and doesn't work for you. My concern is the newbie on here coming for advice and they should know all the facts.


I understand and I agree they should know all the facts, details, and opinions, but you make a point to disagree with me and flat out tell me I'm wrong when I'm not.  There is a way to go about making a statement in a discussion forum on your opinion without belittling others and this is something you have yet to learn.


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## naturalguy (Sep 3, 2003)

I apologize if I come across that way, it's just that I am very passionate about bodybuilding.


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## naturalguy (Sep 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by SolidToTheCORE *_
> NG - I think you have a little bit of dick head (you need more sunshine and beach time) in you. You come across as a complete know it all. I have to say in most of your posts people are fighting with you. I don't think its because you are wrong or any thing I just the you belittle and insult people.
> 
> I am very curious do you have a FORMAL (BS, PHD) education in biochemistry?
> ...



As I said, when you are ready to have a mature, intelligent conversation we can talk.


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## Jodi (Sep 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by SolidToTheCORE *_
> NG - I think you have a little bit of dick head (you need more sunshine and beach time) in you. You come across as a complete know it all. I have to say in most of your posts people are fighting with you. I don't think its because you are wrong or any thing I just the you belittle and insult people.
> 
> I am very curious do you have a FORMAL (BS, PHD) education in biochemistry?
> ...


There is no need for name calling Solid.  You know my views and I agree with your opinions but name calling is immature and it is not proper to continue a conversation with such.  If it continues I will close this thread.  You've made your point.  So please, keep it civil from this point on.


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## SolidToTheCORE (Sep 3, 2003)




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## SolidToTheCORE (Sep 3, 2003)

I am sorry ... to upset the forum


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## Jodi (Sep 3, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by SolidToTheCORE *_
> I am sorry ... to upset the forum


Don't worry   Your fine.


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## SolidToTheCORE (Sep 3, 2003)

Jodi --- I can tell you're cool as hell.  Do you live in Cali?


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## Jodi (Sep 4, 2003)

Nope I'm on the East Coast.


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## SolidToTheCORE (Sep 4, 2003)

I tried.


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## Robboe (Sep 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by SolidToTheCORE *_
> ND- I was thinking. What is your proof that carbs don???t magically turn to fat?    Where is the researc that supports your opinions?



Are you serious?


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## naturalguy (Sep 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by SolidToTheCORE *_
> 
> 
> ND- I was thinking. What is your proof that carbs don???t magically turn to fat?    Where is the researc that supports your opinions?




The proof I have is that I have experimented with it on myself and others, however if you need some scientific proof, I will give it to you. There is a study that was done in 2001, the only link I could find on the internet was in french, however I have a summary of it here and I will give you the reference:

This study was done on actual humans and it was humans that exercise. Like I said earlier there are very few studies done with humans AND humans that exercise. Most studies are with rats and or sedentary and obese people. Here are the highlights and the reference:

These scientists assessed the metabolic fate of carbohydrates consumed by six healthy subjecta after a period of low intensity exercise, a period of moderate intensity exercise and after inactivity. The subjects were given a meal of 150 grams or 400 grams of pasta after performing a low intensity exercise session (bike pedaling at well below 50% of VO2 max) or moderate intensity exercise (60% VO2 max). The subjects were also fed these meals after a period of inactivity. The metabolic fate of the carbohydrate meal was determined using a labeled metabolic tracer within the carbohydrate structure. Exactly where these carbohydrates ended up within the body was studied for eight hours after consumption.

1. The research shows that proper consumption of carbohydrates will enhance your muscle building and fat burning results not impede them.

2. The results demonstrated that when the subjects exercised at a moderate intensity and workload then ate a carbohydrate meal, the fat burning (oxidation) process was not inhibited. The subjects all experienced an increase in fat utilization from exercise despite consuming the carbohydrate meal.

3. When the carbohydrate meals were consumed after exercise, glucose oxidation was significantly reduced. In fact, when subjects ate the high carb meal after the moderate intensity exercise session, glucose oxidation was completely suppresed. This lack of glucose oxidation and the fact that a large positive glycogen balance was observed in these subjects indicates that carbs consumed after exercise are exclusively taken up by muscle.

4. Another important finding from this research was that after exercise, fat storage is completely suppressed. This science revealed that after exercise, the conversion of nutrients such as carbs and protein into fat is virtually impossible.

To sum it up, the vast amount of pubished research in the area of carbohydrate metabolism clearly shows that it is extremely difficult for intelligent carbohydrate consumption to interfere with the fat loss process and when carbs are consumed at the right time they enhance recovery and support the muscle growth process.

reference:

Folch N. Peronnet F, Massicotte D Dulcos M, Lavoie C, Hillaire-Marcel C. Metabolic response to small and large 13C-labeled pasta meals following rest or exercise in man. Bri J. Nutri. (5) 671-680, 2001.

This is good stuff but I didn't need a study to tell me this as everything I have learned supported this and actually doing it on myself and others have shown this to be true time and time again.


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## SolidToTheCORE (Sep 4, 2003)

I can't disagree at all with that study, I knew that already, and that is not what we are talking about. 

So we don't get confused....

1. What do you believe will happen to 75 grams of Whole Wheat Pasta 1 hour beforetime?

2. Do you believe that you awake in a state of keytosis (even if a little bit) no matter you caloric intake before bed?

3. Do you think that it might benefit someone trying to lose BF to induce a slight state of keytosis during rest? 

And keep in mind that the goal is the loss of BF, and there is no other purpose other than the loss of BF. 

I am not trying to agrue.  I am interested on your imput.


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## naturalguy (Sep 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by SolidToTheCORE *_
> I can't disagree at all with that study, I knew that already, and that is not what we are talking about.
> 
> So we don't get confused....
> ...



My point is that it depends on the person and what time they workout, if someone is training let's say at 8pm and they finish at 9 then those 75 grams of carbs will go for recovery and glycogen replacement. If that person is not active around that time then it is a different story.


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## papaoso2k1 (Sep 4, 2003)

Dammit guys....is this going to go on forever or what??? why dont you just agree to disagree


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## naturalguy (Sep 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by SolidToTheCORE *_
> This is the whole point.... this questions.
> 
> I realize what you are saying. I agree with you about a BB training. I am asking you about BF in an overweight Client.




If they are weight training at night, the same rules still apply however if the client is not active at night then I would reccommend only fibrous or a small amount of a low glycemic carb like a sweet potato.


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## Robboe (Sep 5, 2003)

Solid, you're looking at the picture from the perspective of one meal as the big picture, when the entire day's/week's/month's eating is the big picture.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Solid, you're looking at the picture from the perspective of one meal as the big picture, when the entire day's/week's/month's eating is the big picture.



Agreed.  Your body and its cells are in a constant flux of storing and burning fat.  In the end, it is the caloric surplus or deficit that matters, and not the time when you achieved it.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by SolidToTheCORE *_
> This will be the last post on this topic from me ... you can't tell me how I am looking at it. I can tell you is that you don't understand what I talking about. There is no harm it either of those things. I doubt you have read every post that NG and I have wrote to each other.  I don't mean it insult anyone, I have a strong feeling that noone on this thread has a BIOCHEM PHD.  I guess that I will reserve my ideas and just that "ideas".  Maybe, If I post this it my make a little more sense.  All my clients have had great success in this ''Diet" program



I have read all of the posts, thank you very much.

If you aren't clear, don't blame it on everyone else.  Maybe if you wrote in better english, with better grammar, more clarity, and more precision, your point would be made.


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## ZECH (Sep 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> I have read all of the posts, thank you very much.
> 
> If you aren't clear, don't blame it on everyone else.  Maybe if you wrote in better english, with better grammar, more clarity, and more precision, your point would be made.


I agree completely. I read his post and wondered if he knew what he was talking about?


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## katie64 (Sep 7, 2003)

Wow, what an interesting thread, I believe some of you were so against the keto, carb cycling, etc.......... hell if it wasn't the DP/W8 plan, it simply wasn't going to work, interesting how we find out what works for others may not necessarily work for you(anyone).....

Personally I do 13 days Keto, and 1 day carb up, for 4 weeks, take a week off, but eating clean, then I do it again, it works for me and I've lost 30 lbs, with no noticeable muscle loss, and most of you know this was after experimenting with other nutrition plans.............that's what makes this board so great, so many members with so much wisdom that eventually you will find what works best for you..............but don't piss off the wrong people in the process..................  

LOL...........


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## Twin Peak (Sep 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by katie64 *_
> Wow, what an interesting thread, I believe some of you were so against the keto, carb cycling, etc.......... hell if it wasn't the DP/W8 plan, it simply wasn't going to work, interesting how we find out what works for others may not necessarily work for you(anyone).....
> 
> Personally I do 13 days Keto, and 1 day carb up, for 4 weeks, take a week off, but eating clean, then I do it again, it works for me and I've lost 30 lbs, with no noticeable muscle loss, and most of you know this was after experimenting with other nutrition plans.............that's what makes this board so great, so many members with so much wisdom that eventually you will find what works best for you..............but don't piss off the wrong people in the process..................
> ...



Now I am really pissed.


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## Nate (Sep 8, 2003)

I eat a 200 gram sweet potato an hour before bed everyday and my goals have been moving along just fine, for whatever that's worth.


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## SolidToTheCORE (Sep 8, 2003)

good for you.


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## sikunt (Sep 9, 2003)

how do u guys calculate how many calories a day you eat...sounds like alot of work LOL
thats the main reason i never really tried cutting down properly, its too hard getting the calories right.


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## firestorm (Sep 9, 2003)

Ok, I'm speaking only for me here and it is about to go agains what some of you have said but I used to be a competitive bodybuilder and during the winter months I'd put on some extra weight but usually only 10 lbs of extra body fat.  when it got close to the compition season, I would up my cardio to 5 one hour sessions a week.  Cut calories and drink water like a race horse.  Now this alone got me down to pretty close to complition shape but then I'd use "over the counter" diuretics to get the shreaded look.  My cardio was all mountian biking.  To this day I despise tread mills and stationary bikes etc.  Oops I forgot, I'd also practice my martial art  drills at an advanced pace.  Basically I was doing taibo or those karate aerobic classes before they became known to the public.    Now I'm not saying this is the holy grail and what you should do but I will say that this did in deed work for me.   One other thing,  David, GoPro and ShortStuff were talking to me tonight about a weight loss product that they endorse tremendously. They were soo viberant about it that for a moment I thought they owned the company.   hahahaha   but seriously you may want to also look into it.   it is called   CLENBUTERX and you can order it online at  vpxsports.com   I just so happen to have that written down and sitting right next to me as I write this.  I just ordered a free sample.


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## firestorm (Sep 9, 2003)

Short Stuff said she has been taking it for only a short period of time and she has lost a substantial amount of weight.  Her training continued thus no muslce loss that she noticed.


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## firestorm (Sep 9, 2003)

I personnally believe that when you do diet to loose a big percentage of bodyfat you will loose some muscle with it but that doesn't mean the muscle loss has to also be substantial.   
Like I said earlier when I competed my arms for example measured 20 inches but on the day of compitition they were a about 19 1/4.  Smaller yes but looked a hell of alot better.  Sometimes a little loss is a big gain.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 9, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> Ok, I'm speaking only for me here and it is about to go agains what some of you have said but I used to be a competitive bodybuilder and during the winter months I'd put on some extra weight but usually only 10 lbs of extra body fat.  when it got close to the compition season, I would up my cardio to 5 one hour sessions a week.  Cut calories and drink water like a race horse.  Now this alone got me down to pretty close to complition shape but then I'd use "over the counter" diuretics to get the shreaded look.  My cardio was all mountian biking.  To this day I despise tread mills and stationary bikes etc.  Oops I forgot, I'd also practice my martial art  drills at an advanced pace.  Basically I was doing taibo or those karate aerobic classes before they became known to the public.    Now I'm not saying this is the holy grail and what you should do but I will say that this did in deed work for me.   One other thing,  David, GoPro and ShortStuff were talking to me tonight about a weight loss product that they endorse tremendously. They were soo viberant about it that for a moment I thought they owned the company.   hahahaha   but seriously you may want to also look into it.   it is called   CLENBUTERX and you can order it online at  vpxsports.com   I just so happen to have that written down and sitting right next to me as I write this.  I just ordered a free sample.



Actually GoPro does work for VPX.


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## firestorm (Sep 13, 2003)

Thanks TP.


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