# overtraining on purpose  what do you think



## ballerina (May 25, 2004)

is it possible to shrink leg muscles by overtraining them? For example, if one was to train legs moderately 3-4 times per week and do cardio/stairs after would they shrink.  I notice that long distance runners have little bulkiness in their legs.  Maybe lots of running would help?  My legs are starting to get too muscular but my trainer says it takes time.   any opinions...not that i don't like muscles but my legs look like turnips...you know the outer sweep thing is more than i would like to have Thanks


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## aztecwolf (May 25, 2004)

muscular legs, that's not fair, i train hard and i got twigs for legs

It also has a lot to do with genetics, i see this guy at the gym everyday running 8 or so miles on the treadmill with no weight training for legs and he has massive muscular development in the legs, while i have cut down my running and bumbed up my leg routine and still see very little gain


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## Liftzor (May 25, 2004)

Training legs more then twice a week is bad.  Overtraining in anything is not good at all.  I have noticed that when I started to workout my legs twice a week.  I put on some muscle.


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## Johnnny (May 25, 2004)

ballerina I would just stick to training your legs once a week & you won't be over training them.

As for your legs getting to bulky, you maybe using too heavy weights if bulk is obviously what you don't want.

Try lowering the weight & increasing your repititions.


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## Liftzor (May 25, 2004)

yup yup yup

Rep Range for bulk = 10-8 never lower then 4
Rep Range for tone = 15-10 or go higher if you want, never go beyond 20 reps though


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## gr81 (May 26, 2004)

Before I get to my point, it is obvious that I have to educate some of the cats in here. FIRST OF ALL, take the idiotic word tone, and forget it, toss it out the fuccin window for christs sake and never use it again. The notion that a certain rep range tones while another bulks is absolutely ridiculous and completely untrue. Whoever thinks this is so needs to crack open a book before they crack open their mouth. The phrase toning is just another way of saying  a person has a lower bodyfat which equates to being able to see more muscularity without that layer of fat over it, which requires a period of time spent cutting bodyfat. Building muscle is building muscle, and hypertrophy is hypertrophy. the muscles are being recruited no matter what. You will not get slimmer muscles are opposed to bulkier muscle bellies according to your rep range. Rep range is a factor by way of what type of muscle fiber is recruited, whether it is a fast twitch fiber or slow twitch fibers. If you do not want to build skeletal muscle, then do not weight train. training with light weight for high reps is a waste of time. The reason you will not gain muscle mass when operating with that attitude is NOT b/c you are toning, it is b/c yo are not showing your body the resistance and intensity it needs to grow basically. Gaining muscle mass and losing body fat are two seperate functions that are performed SEPERATELY. one requires an influx of calories and teh other requires a deficit in calories so get those stupid notions out of your head. Pick one and go with it. a person who is bodybuilding and a person who is just a person lookin to get fit are engaging in the same process, the only difference is the intensity level and amount of time spent with diet and other aspects of dedication required. Besides that, building muscle is building muscle. Increasing the reps and lowering the weight is a waste of time. If you want to be leaner, then cut the fat. thats it.  

Now, long distance runners are skinny b/c their cortisol levels are through the roof and their test levels are waaayy down, and their bodies are in catabolic mode all the time pretty much. I wouldn't advise trying to lose muscle mass in a specific spot b/c that means you would have to have a deficit in cals which means catabolism everywhere. Instead why don't you just start to prioritize the bodyparts you find are lagging and go after it with that approach. Besides I seriously doubt you are getting too big. What are your goals anyways?


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## atherjen (May 26, 2004)

thank you gr81!!!! I was about to go on a speel when I saw that "tone" word

Liftzor- anything beyond 12reps is burely for endurance purposes.


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## Twin Peak (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> Before I get to my point, it is obvious that I have to educate some of the cats in here. FIRST OF ALL, take the idiotic word tone, and forget it, toss it out the fuccin window for christs sake and never use it again. The notion that a certain rep range tones while another bulks is absolutely ridiculous and completely untrue. Whoever thinks this is so needs to crack open a book before they crack open their mouth. The phrase toning is just another way of saying  a person has a lower bodyfat which equates to being able to see more muscularity without that layer of fat over it, which requires a period of time spent cutting bodyfat. Building muscle is building muscle, and hypertrophy is hypertrophy. the muscles are being recruited no matter what. You will not get slimmer muscles are opposed to bulkier muscle bellies according to your rep range. Rep range is a factor by way of what type of muscle fiber is recruited, whether it is a fast twitch fiber or slow twitch fibers.



I am in full agreement so far.




> If you do not want to build skeletal muscle, then do not weight train. training with light weight for high reps is a waste of time.



This is untrue, and is spoken from a narrow-minded perspective.  There are reasons why one might want to train in a higher rep range.  For example, a higher rep range will build muscle over not training at all, and it will burn many calories.  Its ideal, for example, for one who circuit trains for health and leanness.

And its even useful from time to time for true "bodybuilders" for its phsiological effects on muscle tissue, as well as for creating a state of glycogen depletion.




> The reason you will not gain muscle mass when operating with that attitude is NOT b/c you are toning, it is b/c yo are not showing your body the resistance and intensity it needs to grow basically.



While this may be true, its wholly unrelated to the original posters goal, namely to shrink her quad muscle.




> Gaining muscle mass and losing body fat are two seperate functions that are performed SEPERATELY. one requires an influx of calories and teh other requires a deficit in calories so get those stupid notions out of your head.



Also a very narrow minded opinion.  One can be in a caloric deficit and still build muscle by liberating energy stores (fat) and through nutrient partitioning.

Its just easier to do one or the other, than both concurrantly.  But not impossible.




> Pick one and go with it. a person who is bodybuilding and a person who is just a person lookin to get fit are engaging in the same process, the only difference is the intensity level and amount of time spent with diet and other aspects of dedication required. Besides that, building muscle is building muscle. Increasing the reps and lowering the weight is a waste of time. If you want to be leaner, then cut the fat. thats it.



But she was asking about how to be leaner, rather he to have less muscular thighs.  



> Now, long distance runners are skinny b/c their cortisol levels are through the roof and their test levels are waaayy down, and their bodies are in catabolic mode all the time pretty much. I wouldn't advise trying to lose muscle mass in a specific spot b/c that means you would have to have a deficit in cals which means catabolism everywhere. Instead why don't you just start to prioritize the bodyparts you find are lagging and go after it with that approach. Besides I seriously doubt you are getting too big. What are your goals anyways?




To address the original poster, your plan is a bad idea.  Rather than seek to overtrain, you should undertrain.  That is, if you are lifting legs twice per week and they are too muscular, train than once per week.  If once, train then every other week.

In other words, don't change your routine, but rather change your frequency so that you don't continue to build and perhaps loss some mass.

In addition, if you want leaner legs, well then, you'll have to loss the fat.


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## Johnnny (May 26, 2004)

ballerina this girl seems to want more tone, shape, leanness, definition whatever all the same. She wants this more  than bulk.
Let's not forget that the person who started this thread is a girl or woman. Let's not forget that for the majority of the population, most women to have a lean & shaped body, not a big, bulky muscled body. So therefore the majority of the women train differently the men as men are looking for more mass most of the time.

From what I understand she is saying that she wants her legs to not be as big or bulky.
Ballerina 





> is it possible to shrink leg muscles by overtraining them?



Right there she cleary is stating she wants to make her legs more slender & shaped.



> My legs are starting to get too muscular



Again she is clearly stating she does want big muscular legs.

A few years ago I spoke to a girlfriend of mine at the time personal trainer who is a woman. She stated that the majority of women don't want too much muscle mass, more shape & definition, unless they're training for the Ms.Olympia or a heavy weight bodybuilding show.

Therefore women looking for shape & definition & a slender body shouldn't be using the heavy weight, 4-6 rep scheme. Following a good diet & increasing the reps & lowering the weight for many women will build a long, lean slender body.

Plus women looking for this goal shouldn't be eating high calories or high fat's but not cutting fat's from their diet completely. Fats such as Flaxseed oil & other EFA's like Fish oil, Salmon Oil for one containing one EFA Omega 3 shouldn't be ignored.

These fats help the body to release fatty acids from the body & are very healthy.


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## Novo (May 26, 2004)

Johnny, seriously - you have to stop this crap. Everyone has had a good laugh throughout many of the threads you've started, and that's fine. But when you pass uninformed comment on a thread started by someone asking for educated and experienced opinion, that's quite different.

What you are saying about women "looking for shape and definition .. shouldn't be using heavy weights, low reps .... but lower weights and increased reps" is COMPLETE BULLSHIT. And it's dangerous - becuase newbies on here don't know who is offereing good advice (Ballerine, Twin Peak is very experienced), and who is talking shit.


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## plouffe (May 26, 2004)

Alot of women actually do that. I forget what its called, like woman that compete in figure competitions and stuff. Search it on bodybuilding.com.


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## Johnnny (May 26, 2004)

Novo you are an ahole who doesn't know wtf he is talking about. 
Personally I think you are the one who's talking sh!t. I know what I'm talking about as I've trained more than a few women who've achieved their goals of a leaner, more defined, slender body.

I will not stop giving the truth. Just how many women do you know want to look like Kim Chisevsky or Nicole Bass or China? Not many I bet. If women train like a man, they will develop bulky muslces just like a man plain & simple.

[qoute]Everyone has had a good laugh throughout many of the threads you've started, and that's fine [/quote]
You exaggerate, it's only been a couple of threads & most of the crap that comes up is started by ppl like you. 

So let me get this straight, say you get a female client who's looking to get leaner & more defined & slender. She does not want big thick leg muscles, a wide thick back, or thick shoulders & arms. Just good definition being lean.

I getting the impression since you disagree with me, that you'd put her on a program doing heavy weights & 4-6 reps & a diet that goes along with it. After a couple of months she's noticing that she's not getting the lean, defined, slender body she wants.
Then she gets mad at you & asks wtf is going on? & says instead of the lean, defined, slender body I want, you've given me big, buldging, bulky muscles? 

Then what? You will have to change her diet & training plan. If you give a woman the heavy weight, low rep scheme, you're going to cause her to get big & bulky. Most women don't want that. The several women I've trained all got results training the way I made them in the above replies with higher reps, lighter weights, more cardio after the weights, & a low to moderate calorie intake diet. Plus EFA's such as Flax seed oil & Salmon oil.

Like I said I reading up on all of this for my certification course.

Even I depending on what I want change my workouts to higher reps & somewhat lighter weights & it works wonders for getting lean.

Novo you obviously don't know anything or what you're talking about or you would've added some real helpful information to help this girl out. Instead you chose to attack me which is clear that's all you came here to do.

Just accept the fact that you're dealing with someone who's been in the game for 10yrs & has gotten extensive advice from many other male & female trainers, & bodybuilders natural & on drugs. Not to mention I'm reading books for my certification course.

I even read this same information in one of Arnolds articles in a book. I think he knows what he's talking about. By saying you don't think I know what I'm talking about, you are also saying Arnold doesn't know what he's talking about as I've read his encyclopedia a few yrs ago & other books containing his personal information.

So either add some useful information or shut your immature mouth.


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## tucker01 (May 26, 2004)

Actually Novo is a Chick 

And I was always of the mentality eat big to be big


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## Johnnny (May 26, 2004)

IainDaniel well it's hard to tell as she seems to promote training like a man for women.

I guess she's training for Ms. Olympia or something. Most women I've worked with don't want to look this way as I've stated above.
So they have to train somewhat differently then men.

& the majority of the women I see training at the gym don't use heavy weights or low reps. They use high reps with lighter weights & focus on cardio much more. I over hear many of them talking about their diets & most of them eat at most 4-5 times a day with not an over amount of calories.

So are all of these women wrong on what they are doing? I don't think so as they look pretty damn good so they're achieving their goals from training this way.


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## Twin Peak (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> IainDaniel well it's hard to tell as she seems to promote training like a man for women.
> 
> I guess she's training for Ms. Olympia or something. Most women I've worked with don't want to look this way as I've stated above.
> ...



Let's break down the sexist barriers, contrived walls, and learn a tad about physiology while were are at.

There is no such thing as "training like a man" or "training like a woman."  You can't make your muscle "slender" or "toned" by the way you work out.  Reread Gr81's post above, and my clarifications of it.

Let's get a few things straight, and drop the ad hominem talk about "reading for your certificate".  Whoop-d-do.

1)  You either build muscle, or do not build muscle, period.

2)  There are optimal ways to build muscle, and there are less optimal ways.  Admittedly, what each person responds to (in terms of stimulus, level of intensity, volume, frequency, etc.) varies.

3)  You create muscle "definition" or "tone" (or lack thereof) by (1) increase muscle mass, and (2) decreasing bodyfat.  The way you train has nothing to do with this, except to the limited and secondary extent that it burns calories.

Now, if you grasp all of the above, you will soon recognize that you don't train differently based on your sex, you train to (a) increase muscle, or not, and (b) to loss fat, or not.

I'd also like to touch briefly on your misguided notion that men and women will respond the same to the same workouts.  They don't.  First, men will not build the muscle of Kim Chichefsky.  That is the result of super genetics, hard-work and years of doing so, and extraordinary amounts of anabilic steroids.  Natural males do not have the capacity to build that much muscle.  Natural females even less so.

My point -- VERY VERY VERY few people have the ability to get "too big."  Women simply do not have the hormonal profile to do so.  Rather, the fears of getting "too big" are overblow do to propogations of misinformation, such as you are doing here.


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## nikegurl (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> My point -- VERY VERY VERY few people have the ability to get "too big."  Women simply do not have the hormonal profile to do so.  Rather, the fears of getting "too big" are overblow do to propogations of misinformation, such as you are doing here.



AMEN!  Johnny - it's one thing to have your opinions but its another to tell people completely false information when they come here looking for help. 

"better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"


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## austinite (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> 
> One can be in a caloric deficit and still build muscle by liberating energy stores (fat) and through nutrient partitioning.
> 
> Its just easier to do one or the other, than both concurrantly.  But not impossible.



Twin Peak this is an excellent post.  GR8 sounds knowledgeable but she must realize that there are few absolutes in fitness training.  Everyone has a different body and genes, I have known many who managed to burn fat while building muscle, although it is not easy.  As a matter-of-fact, weight training is a fat-burning endeavor in and of itself.

GR81 could also learn from you about the use of paragraphs.


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## CourtQueen (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> My point -- VERY VERY VERY few people have the ability to get "too big."  Women simply do not have the hormonal profile to do so.  Rather, the fears of getting "too big" are overblow do to propogations of misinformation, such as you are doing here.




I second that AMEN!!!!!!!

The people that say women should do it differently are playing the same money game as the rest of the world.  Women want to hear about an easier way to make themselves look beautiful.  Most of them don't know what sweating is about.  Hence the other misguided belief of the Cardio craze........ UGH


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## austinite (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> 
> {You said}
> 
> ...



These two statements are contradictory.  You acknowledge that men and women respond differently to workouts.  I would also offer that they GENERALLY work out differently.  

It is less likely that most women will grunt and strain for that "last rep" to the degree most men will.  Why is that? Hormonal differences? Societal pressure?  Less of a drive to get big/strong?  I don't know.

I'll concede that I  know less than many of you about this subject, but I know enough to know that no individual has all of the answers.

The thread starter will probably end up trying several combinations/techniques until she finds a routine/diet that gives her the type of progress she desires.


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## CourtQueen (May 26, 2004)

Ballerina - Back to your question.  Your trainer is right, it does take time.  You need to be realistic about how much fat you have vs. muscle.  Do you know your fat%?

Another option is plyometrics, jumping specifically.  Sand volleyball can really lean those legs down.   But again it isn't going to happen over night.

I would suggest avoiding the seated hip adduction.


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## Twin Peak (May 26, 2004)

> These two statements are contradictory. You acknowledge that men and women respond differently to workouts. I would also offer that they GENERALLY work out differently.



No, they are not.

The former discusses how men and women should train the same, the latter simply acknowledges that they will not respond the same; this does not mean, however, that simply because they will not respond the same (in general women will not grow as quickly or as large) they should train different.  These notions are not contradictory in the least.




> I would also offer that they GENERALLY work out differently.



While this is true, that does not mean it should be.




> It is less likely that most women will grunt and strain for that "last rep" to the degree most men will. Why is that? Hormonal differences? Societal pressure? Less of a drive to get big/strong? I don't know.



I am not sure your point here.  Its rather irrelevant to the topic at hand.  However, the fact that TYPICALLY women train differently (assuming that is true) has only to do with notions of perception and drive, and nothing more.


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## Johnnny (May 26, 2004)

I wasn't being sexist in anyway. All I was saying was that most women who've trained with me preffered not to train with the heavy weight low rep scheme.

And most women I see training at the gym do not train with heavier weights & low reps, they train with lighter weights & higher reps & focus more on cardio than weights.

The men I see training at my gym tend to use the heavy weights, low rep scheme the majority of the time.

In no way was I trying to be sexist, I apologize if you took it that way.

However I've seen a couple of women at my gym training with the heavy weights 2-4 reps scheme & they tend to be bigger & bulkier than most of the women I see at my gym who tend to focus more on cardio & use the lighter weights & higher reps scheme & they tend to be more slender, leaner & have good tone/definition which is what many of the women I've spoken to want.


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## CourtQueen (May 26, 2004)

What they look like today does not tell you what they will look like tomorrow.


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## nikegurl (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> I wasn't being sexist in anyway. All I was saying was that most women who've trained with me preffered not to train with the heavy weight low rep scheme.
> 
> And most women I see training at the gym do not train with heavier weights & low reps, they train with lighter weights & higher reps & focus more on cardio than weights.



And that is due to the fact that they get bad misinformation (like what you posted and are perpetuating)


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## Johnnny (May 26, 2004)

CourtQueen well I don't see all women wanting to look like the hulk anytime soon from the majority of the women in my gym.


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## Johnnny (May 26, 2004)

nikegurl it is not bad or wrong information. If every woman started training really heavy & the 2-4 reps scheme, there would be a lot of female hulks around.

It's a known fact that when training with heavier weights & the 2-4 rep scheme, it builds big, thick muscles. Which is what most women do not want from the women that I see at the gym & what I hear their goals are. They want to be lean, defined, & slender. Training heavy with the 2-4 rep scheme will just make the woman thicker & bulkier which like I said is not what most women I see at the gym want. Unless they're training for Ms.Olympia or something.


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## CourtQueen (May 26, 2004)

You don't understand.  Whatever their routine is today doesn't mean that is what thye have been doing to get where they are now or does it dictate what they want to acheive.  Just by looking at what they are currently doing doesn't mean squat!



> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> However I've seen a couple of women at my gym training with the heavy weights 2-4 reps scheme & they tend to be bigger & bulkier than most of the women I see at my gym who tend to focus more on cardio & use the lighter weights & higher reps scheme & they tend to be more slender, leaner & have good tone/definition which is what many of the women I've spoken to want.



^ I think this is a bullshit statement.  
I would like you to go up to each one of those women that are lifting lighter weights and more reps and ask the following questions....
1) When did you start lifting?
2)  What was your bodyfat% before you started lifting?
3)  How old are you?
4) Why are you doing the current lifting routine that you are and what exactly is the routine.


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## CourtQueen (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> nikegurl it is not bad or wrong information. If every woman started training really heavy & the 2-4 reps scheme, there would be a lot of female hulks around.
> 
> It's a known fact that when training with heavier weights & the 2-4 rep scheme, it builds big, thick muscles. Which is what most women do not want from the women that I see at the gym & what I hear their goals are. They want to be lean, defined, & slender. Training heavy with the 2-4 rep scheme will just make the woman thicker & bulkier which like I said is not what most women I see at the gym want. Unless they're training for Ms.Olympia or something.




WRONG


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## nikegurl (May 26, 2004)

Johnny - It is NOT a known fact that women training with heavy weights build big thick muscles.  very few women have the genetic capability to build big thick muscles even with years of trying to do just that.  you make it sound as though a woman using heavy weights better watch out or muscles will just pop out everywhere.   

it's ok if you don't know this stuff but please stop insisting things are facts when they are total myths and please don't spread the ignorance.


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## CourtQueen (May 26, 2004)

Ever heard of testosterone Johnny???


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## Johnnny (May 26, 2004)

CourtQueen yeah I have heard of testosterone, something I have plenty of.
so you think that training heavy & the low rep scheme won't build bigger, bulkier muscles? Well that's what you say when you say WRONG! As for the women when they started training, some have been training for 5 months, while others have been training 20 yrs & both are training the same way as I mention. As for their BF% I can't speak for all of them, but some of them come in with 10-20%BF & trim down while others don't have much to begin with & just want to add a bit of muscle while staying slender & lean. As for their age, they're all ages at my gym. & as for their routine, most are doing the type of training as I mention to stay lean, slender & defined just to be healthy.

nikegurl 





> Johnny - It is NOT a known fact that women training with heavy weights build big thick muscles.



You put words into my mouth as you read incorrectly I said 



> It's a known fact that when training with heavier weights & the 2-4 rep scheme,



I no where in that phrase said it's a known fact that women training heavy......
As you see in my own quote I said in it's a known fact when ppl in general train heavier with the 2-4 rep scheme tend to build up thicker & bulkier.

As for women with big muscles, I've seen a few natural training women with big muscles. & yes I am putting out a warning to women training heavy if their goal is to be lean, slender, & defined.


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## Rich46yo (May 26, 2004)

One of the great mysterys of the weightlifting world is the female obsession with "NOT" building large muscles and "looking like a man". Unless your juiceing a lady just doesnt have the hormonal cocktail to build muscles like a man. If you want to "bulk up" your going to have to eat more. If you want that lean feminine muscular look then adjust your diet. If you want to look like some of these super models then puke out everything you eat and snort heroin.

                    Ballet is a physical discipline thats custom made for weights. As long as you retain your flexability I cant understand why your trainer would want you to quit lifting. I know some dancers and lifting weights has helped them a lot. In fact there is no sport that weightlifting cant help you with. Even golfers lift now.

                    Female muscles are beautiful. I dont see how your legs could possably get "to muscular"..............take care........Rich


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## Twin Peak (May 26, 2004)

Oh jeez.


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## nikegurl (May 26, 2004)

stop the madness.


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## gr81 (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> I am in full agreement so far.
> 
> 
> ...


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## LAM (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> nikegurl it is not bad or wrong information. If every woman started training really heavy & the 2-4 reps scheme, there would be a lot of female hulks around.
> 
> It's a known fact that when training with heavier weights & the 2-4 rep scheme, it builds big, thick muscles. Which is what most women do not want from the women that I see at the gym & what I hear their goals are. They want to be lean, defined, & slender. Training heavy with the 2-4 rep scheme will just make the woman thicker & bulkier which like I said is not what most women I see at the gym want. Unless they're training for Ms.Olympia or something.



where do you get your information from ? the average male produces 10x the amount as the average woman.  woman do not get big and bulky unless they supplement with testosterone...


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## Var (May 26, 2004)

Anyone else notice that all of Johnny's posts lead to this eventually????


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## gr81 (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Let's break down the sexist barriers, contrived walls, and learn a tad about physiology while were are at.
> 
> There is no such thing as "training like a man" or "training like a woman."  You can't make your muscle "slender" or "toned" by the way you work out.  Reread Gr81's post above, and my clarifications of it.
> ...




couldn't agree more with ya here bro. I am so tired of the stigmas surrounding womens weight training. I am a huge advocate of women weight training and doing it with the intensity of a man. Why not, are we to believe that women are too fragile to really bust their ass in there? are we back in the 50's again where women aren't supposed to overstep their boundaries? The notion is just ludicrous. I never see women even breaking a sweat ro grunting in the gym, but then again, why would you break a sweat when you are doing tricep kickbacks with 5 lbs every day. We need to break down these stupid stigmas and get them to realize that they need to be in there working hard, busting their ass. They need to be under the squat rack and deadlifting and gettingstronger. They aren't just going to wake up one day and look like China or Nicole Bass, or whoever else Johnnny mentioned, do you know why joynny? those women are using androgens, and high levels of them. Many men have dedicated thier lives to getting big, freakish even, and look where most of them are at. A women has 1/8 of the testosterone level of a man, so tell me how that is going to happen. The mere notion that women shouldn't overstep their boundaries in the gym, and stick to their exercise and side of the gym is sexist and simply archaic, not to mention selfdefeating.. It will not make them less feminine, it will only contribute positivel to their self image and self worth. Will you please tell me, johnny, what is different about the female skeletal muscular system and physical being in general that requires an antirely different, less intense and challenging methodology of training, please enlighten us? Look at Atherjen for instance, is she not feminine? hell yeah she is. not only that but I bet good money that she would woop johnny candy ass in the gym in most lifts and intensity. Is it b/c she is some freak of nature, not at all. She just doesn't let these silly stigmas stop her or limit her ambitions. thats is, I am done with this nonsense. Women please do not listen to these insecure men. The only limit on your training is what your mental limits it to be. You aren't gonna just wake up one day and be some roided out bitch, thats not how it works..peace


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## Monolith (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Var *_
> Anyone else notice that all of Johnny's posts lead to this eventually????



Its like flies to shit.


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## gr81 (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by austinite *_
> Twin Peak this is an excellent post.  GR8 sounds knowledgeable but she must realize that there are few absolutes in fitness training.  Everyone has a different body and genes, I have known many who managed to burn fat while building muscle, although it is not easy.  As a matter-of-fact, weight training is a fat-burning endeavor in and of itself.
> 
> GR81 could also learn from you about the use of paragraphs.




It is infact NOT a fatburning endevour, it IS a catabolic endevour actually bro. Weight training increases your cortisol level, which leads to loss of LBM, while holding on so dearly to that adipose tissue you have. but by that rational you could say that rolling over in bed is a fat burning endevour. They are two differnt functions. anyone who is accomplishing both at once, is unique and probably either a newbie whose body has never seen resistance training before, or is on drugs for the most part.Just b/c someone does it, doesn't mean its the rule. soem people have 4 fingers, that doesn't make it always true. its the exception/. And yes you are right about there being few absoluts in weight training, I am aware. I never said the word absolute.

By the way, GR81 is a MAN, not awomen. Nest person that does that is getting cracked upside the head!


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## nikegurl (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> couldn't agree more with ya here bro. I am so tired of the stigmas surrounding womens weight training. I am a huge advocate of women weight training and doing it with the intensity of a man. Why not, are we to believe that women are too fragile to really bust their ass in there? are we back in the 50's again where women aren't supposed to overstep their boundaries? The notion is just ludicrous. I never see women even breaking a sweat ro grunting in the gym, but then again, why would you break a sweat when you are doing tricep kickbacks with 5 lbs every day. We need to break down these stupid stigmas and get them to realize that they need to be in there working hard, busting their ass. They need to be under the squat rack and deadlifting and gettingstronger. They aren't just going to wake up one day and look like China or Nicole Bass, or whoever else Johnnny mentioned, do you know why joynny? those women are using androgens, and high levels of them. Many men have dedicated thier lives to getting big, freakish even, and look where most of them are at. A women has 1/8 of the testosterone level of a man, so tell me how that is going to happen. The mere notion that women shouldn't overstep their boundaries in the gym, and stick to their exercise and side of the gym is sexist and simply archaic, not to mention selfdefeating.. It will not make them less feminine, it will only contribute positivel to their self image and self worth. Will you please tell me, johnny, what is different about the female skeletal muscular system and physical being in general that requires an antirely different, less intense and challenging methodology of training, please enlighten us? Look at Atherjen for instance, is she not feminine? hell yeah she is. not only that but I bet good money that she would woop johnny candy ass in the gym in most lifts and intensity. Is it b/c she is some freak of nature, not at all. She just doesn't let these silly stigmas stop her or limit her ambitions. thats is, I am done with this nonsense. Women please do not listen to these insecure men. The only limit on your training is what your mental limits it to be. You aren't gonna just wake up one day and be some roided out bitch, thats not how it works..peace



damn dude....i'm all choked up.


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## gr81 (May 26, 2004)

Johnny, you are officially a MORON. other threads didn't yet validate it, but these comments have made it offical. You are a god damm idiot. 

"if women performed reps between 4-6 then there would be alot of female hulks our there"

OMG this^^ is the stupidest thing you have said. do us all a favor and shut your stupid mouth and stop talking about shit you don't know. Its funny that you are in here arguing with like 10 different people, and you still think you are right. yeah we are all wrong and you are rigt, please... you are a joke. Whatever you erply with is not gonna change the fact that you are a fuccin idiot and everyone here knows it! have a nice day jackass.


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## Saturday Fever (May 26, 2004)

Someone needs to mention that the type of overtraining this lady is going to experience will be CNS overtraining, not overtraining of the muscles themselves. This will lead more to stagnation in strength than stagnation and regression in growth.

Your trainer rings of a "gym staff trainer" to me. They always say "It takes time" because your time is their dime! A good trainer will show you results from day 1.


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## gr81 (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by nikegurl *_
> damn dude....i'm all choked up.




thanks babe.   see no one can ever say I am a sexist pig.


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## Var (May 26, 2004)

I wish I could go back in time and unread this thread.    Johnny, stop perpetuating myths you picked up at bodybuilding.com (or wherever you're from) and let people who know what they're talking about give advice.  This was a truly sad display of your knowledge (or lack of it).  I'm honestly not trying to flame you...this was just pathetic.


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## kim (May 26, 2004)

I have been reading all your debate here regarding how women should train and I think that some people must read that thread link - IT'S A MUST 

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi12.htm

kim


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## Var (May 26, 2004)

I just skimmed it, but looks like a good article.  And from bbing.com no less.


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## kim (May 26, 2004)

Yea, that's a great article and as for being a women who his looking for great achievment, I'm much more confident entering into the MAX-O-T.


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## Johnnny (May 26, 2004)

gr81 all I can say is scr^w yourself. "gr81" yeah right, more like ahole#1 if you ask me. You haven't even added one bit of useful information to this thread, it's very obvious that you came here just to attack me for some reason. That also tells me you don't know anything regarding this subject as I have trained more than a few females helping them achieve their fitness goals. & they did accomplish their goals not by training heavy with low reps, these women accomplished them by having the proper diet, focusing more on cardio, & using lighter weights & higher reps.

As for the females I mentioned using steroids & hormones, no 
sh!t ahole, but they didn't get that way buy just using steroids & hormones & androgens alone. They lifted heavy weights & low reps. I've seen some females using steroids training with lighter weights & higher reps & they developed that very long, lean & very defined look rather than mass.

So again, it goes back to the way the woman trains & what her goals are. Even if she's not on steroids & she wants mass, she has to train for mass which consists of lifting heavy & low reps, if she wants definition & a lean body she has to train for it with cardio, proper diet & lighter weights & higher reps.

My current girlfriend is a perfect example of a woman being able to naturally increase their muscle mass & strength. She's 5ft6 & is now her current weight is 120lbs with not a lot of body fat nor did she ever have very much. She has a slender, lean shape & she trains high reps with lighter weight eats 4 meals & day with one snack & keeps her fat intake low. 2 summers ago when she first started training, she was training with heavy weights & 2-4 reps as she didn't know any better. & had the need to eat more & more frequently. After several months she'd gone up from 115lbs to about 135lbs. She thought she was getting fat. I immediately asked her how is she training & dieting? Her training & diet was designed for mass building which is what she didn't want at all, like I said she didn't know any better at the time. Her shoulders & back & legs were getting pretty thick for her body structure. She could bench press 140lbs for 3 reps & military press about 85lbs for 4 reps & squat about 155lbs for 4 reps or so. So I had to change up her whole training regime & diet. I re-organized everything for her, I lowered the amount of good food per day, I changed the way she was training like increasing the reps & using lighter weights, & had her doing more cardio. It took a few months but she started developing that long, lean look that she really wanted. She could still max out at the same strength, but didn't do it very often. Even her friends that I didn't even know had been training her new way for a long time already. perfect example.

As for only some of my threads going sour, the biggest problem is that some ppl think they know everything & just want to flap their lips to look like they know something.

Now don't take this the wrong way I'm not saying Nikegurl, CourtQueen or TwinPeak aren't knowledgeable, it's certain other individuals who think they know everything. I used to be like that 10yrs ago when I was 18yrs old until I actually started reading & doing plenty of research, asking as many different trainers men & women, natural & steroid enhanced bodybuilders for information as well.

Just for the record, even all the majority of the female certified trainers I've spoken to about women & their training routines, it's all the same as I've been stressing. They say if the woman wants muscle mass & thickness, she has to train & eat for it, if she wants a long lean slender body she has to train & eat for it. Both procedures are different.

I've also agreed with many other ppl here on this forum about many different things, but for this I don't agree I'm sorry, but I don't. If a woman or man uses heavy weights & low reps they will develop muscle mass, thickness & power/strength, if they do more cardio, not eat as much calories, use lighter weights & higher reps they will have a longer, leaner physique. It's been known for years, one of the things I've read in Arnold Schwarzenegger's books, I believe him over "some" of the ppl here.


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## Var (May 26, 2004)

This post was far too long and I really dont have the interest to tear it apart in detail.  Pls see my original post, as it still applies.  Also, getting the opinions of PT's doesnt mean shit.  Most suck.  Reading Schwarzeneggers books doesnt mean a damn thing either.  The only value in those books is entertainment.


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## Liftzor (May 26, 2004)

lol damn you people are rough.  I say tone, because I though it was a word you all would be familiar with .  I guess, I have to make more educated posts from now on ........ lol


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## DanK (May 26, 2004)

> "gr81" yeah right, more like ahole#1 if you ask me.



Well yeah he's an ahole, but you're still an idiot (and he contributed plenty to this thread until you showed up and forced everyone in this thread to acknowledge your lack of knowledge).


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## Sean0621 (May 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> As for only some of my threads going sour, the biggest problem is that some ppl think they know everything & just want to flap their lips to look like they know something.


You can't really believe what you just said. So what you think these "know it alls" are just posting to contradict whatever you post which of course is infallible, gr81 makes two good points in that a) he made a valid statement about women and lifting and b) you are an idiot. Look man I've read a couple of your post and yeah they go fine until you say something stupid and then someone tries to set you straight. Oh well whatever, do what you want, just don't try to make others as stupid as you are.


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## austinite (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gr81 *_
> Johnny, you are officially a MORON.



Anyone who takes fitness advice from someone on a chat board is a moron if they don't get independent validation prior to implementation.  Let the man give his opinion, that is exactly what everyone else is doing.


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## Twin Peak (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by austinite *_
> Anyone who takes fitness advice from someone on a chat board is a moron if they don't get independent validation prior to implementation.  Let the man give his opinion, that is exactly what everyone else is doing.



Except he is not merely "giving his opinion" he is spreading misinformation, and perpetuating sexism.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

DanK 





> Well yeah he's an ahole, but you're still an idiot (and he contributed plenty to this thread until you showed up and forced everyone in this thread to acknowledge your lack of knowledge).



I think you've just described yourself. You don't even know what's going on. The "gr81" wasn't even on this thread until after I came offering my knowledge. He came just to run his fat mouth off.

I've read a lot of books, websites, spoken to many FEMALE & male trainers, & read up on a lot of websites & they say for females who want the long lean slender look they should avoid training with heavy weights & low reps & use lighter weights & higher reps. All the female trainers even a couple of big she- hulks & the male trainers I've seen in gyms over the years follow this principle of lighter weights & higer reps for their female or male clients who don't want to be big & bulky. Plus the diet is also not geared for bulk either.

So I guess they are ALL wrong eh? & all the books including information on this subject by Arnold Schwarzenegger & other Bodybuilders are all wrong. Oh well, I'd trust their information over certain ppl on the internet.

Sean0621



> You can't really believe what you just said. So what you think these "know it alls" are just posting to contradict whatever you post which of course is infallible, gr81 makes two good points in that a) he made a valid statement about women and lifting and b) you are an idiot. Look man I've read a couple of your post and yeah they go fine until you say something stupid and then someone tries to set you straight. Oh well whatever, do what you want, just don't try to make others as stupid as you are.



Yes I do believe what I said b/c you're one of these ppl if you believe someone like "gr81".

austinite



> Anyone who takes fitness advice from someone on a chat board is a moron if they don't get independent validation prior to implementation. Let the man give his opinion, that is exactly what everyone else is doing.



Like I've said I've gotten all my information from numerous certified female & male trainers, published books & other natural & steroid enhanced female & male bodybuilders. Knowledge is power & I've learned many things about training from all of these resources mentioned above. But I guess they're all wrong eh?

Twin Peak



> Except he is not merely "giving his opinion" he is spreading misinformation, and perpetuating sexism.



Perpetuating sexism? WTF? I am in no way a sexist person. I already apologized if I came off that way. Like I said I've even gotten the same information from FEMALE TRAINERS & FEMALE BODYBUILDERS as well as male trainers & bodybuilders about MEN & WOMEN alike who want the long, lean, slender defined look & that their training has to be different & their diet has to be different than someone who is training & eating for bulk, mass & power.

But I guess these FEMALE TRAINERS & BODYBUILDERS that I've gotten my information from who say ppl wanting the long, lean, slender look are ALL WRONG EH?

All I can say is I don't think so.

Like I said in a reply my girlfriend is a perfect example of this, she already started out with not that much BF%. Last year she started training for the first time & really didn' know what she was doing. I say she didn't know what she was doing b/c she wanted the long, lean, slender defined look & not a bulky look. She started out by using heavier weights & 2-4 reps as that is what she saw at her gym all the guys doing as there were only a few girls in her gym.

As she began training she did know she need enough protein, but she noticed her appetite increased greatly so she started eating about 6 small meals a day. After several months she went from her 5ft6 height at around 115lbs with not much BF% to a big 135lbs with thicker shoulders, back, legs & bigger arms for her figure. She was only doing about 15mins of cardio as well.

She thought she was getting fat as I said she didn't know any better. I asked her how her training was & she basically described a routine & diet geared for mass & bulk & told me that she didn't want this look & wanted that long lean, slender defined look. So I had to change up her whole diet & training regime. I told to eat no more than 4 small solid meals plus one snack a day, increase her cardio to at least 25-35mins at most 4-5 times a week, & change her weight training to lighter weights & higher reps. After about 5 months or so she finally developed that long lean, slender defined look she wanted.

All the clients of the FEMALE & male trainers I see at gyms are training their female or male clients who don't want to be big & bulky & from what I see their clients are getting results.

So I'll take their advice over ppl from the internet on this as results mean the female & male trainers are doing something right & know what they are talking about.


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## Vieope (May 27, 2004)

_All I have to say is that I agree and disagree with most arguments in this thread. lol 
Damn, you guys make too long posts to discuss obvious topics. _


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

Vieope you can't spare 2 mins to read posts to know what's going on? 



> All I have to say is that I agree and disagree with most arguments in this thread. lol
> Damn, you guys make too long posts to discuss obvious topics.



But I respect your opinion.


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## Novo (May 27, 2004)

::sigh:: OK everyone, it's probably time we all admitted we know nothing in the face of Johnnny's superior knowledge:



> If women train like a man, they will develop bulky muslces just like a man plain & simple



... and, my particular favourite, really he's just saving us all from heavy training, because



> there would be a lot of female hulks around



Just one question Johnnny - any evidence, physiologically speaking, for any of these "facts" (and no, I don't need to hear "I read it in Arnie's book so it's gospel)


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

Novo 


> ::sigh:: OK everyone, it's probably time we all admitted we know nothing in the face of Johnnny's superior knowledge:



I never said some of you here don't know anything. I'm clearly stating that the majority of women I've seen train or being trained by female or male trainers is generally the same as I have mentioned already. These women are getting the results from the diet & training I support. Maybe those results are wrong to.
All I can say is that results that these women & men are getting for the goal of being long, lean, slender & defined means they are doing something right. Results are proof, all I can say.


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## Twin Peak (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Oh jeez.



And I repeat....


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## Twin Peak (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> Results are proof, all I can say.



Ah, well, yes.  In addition to knowing what I am talking about, I have a few of those feathers in my cap as well.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

All I'm saying is that if all these female & male trainers are giving their clients who want that long lean, slender difined look & it's been written in sooo many books, & from the women I see at all the gyms I've ever been to training & eating this way & getting the results they want, in my opinion they're doing something right as results speak louder than words.


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## JLB001 (May 27, 2004)

Bodies aren't all cookie cutter.....everyone reacts differently to different things.   Myself I say screw the books and do what works for you.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

JLB001 personally if you want a certain type of physique, you have to train & diet for it. & if the majority of ppl using one method designed to achieve the physique they won't i.e. if they want more mass eat for it & train for it heavy weights & 2-4 reps or if they want long lean muscles with a slender well defined body, than they have to eat for it less calories & train for it with lighter weights & higher reps.


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## Novo (May 27, 2004)

TP? Will you STOP using physiology to support your arguments for goodness sake - just go and ask a skinny girl on the cardio machines how she does it would you? 


You know what Johnnny? You had it right when you said you thought I know nothing, I don't actually. And it's exactly because I'm aware of how much I need to learn that you have made me so angry in this thread. 

Newbies, and girls in particular, DO use forums such as these for information. They may have noone else to ask, be quite nervous about the whole weights business anyway, and not have access (financially, feel insecure, whatever) to a qualified and experienced trainer. Hence ignorance like yours propagates the 
MYTH that if a girl tries to lift heavy she will morph into a masculine beast. 

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, everyone is. But within this context to spout the crap you have been is dangerous, and that's why so many responsible people have lept all over it.

Honestly, and I'm not trying to be a bitch, if you just think about the fact that you're basing your statements on very limited experience, can't you see that it's wrong to make sweeping assumptions in this way?


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## Vieope (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> they want long lean muscles with a slender well defined body, than they have to eat for it less calories & train for it with lighter weights & higher reps.


_Ok, that is funny.  _


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

Novo I agree. I would tell the skinny female or male depending on if they want to gain weight, they'll need to train for it & eat for it. I would tell them to train with heavier weights & 2-4 reps & eat a high protein & high calorie diet. Which will be different from a female or male that wants to have long lean muscles. Not as many calories, & lighter weights with higher reps.

It all depends on what the individual wants.


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## JLB001 (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> JLB001 personally if you want a certain type of physique, you have to train & diet for it. & if the majority of ppl using one method designed to achieve the physique they won't i.e. if they want more mass eat for it & train for it heavy weights & 2-4 reps or if they want long lean muscles with a slender well defined body, than they have to eat for it less calories & train for it with lighter weights & higher reps.


  Well let me stump you on this one....and see if you can figure it out...

My training style is to go HEAVY with HIGH reps.  It works for me. I NEVER train in the 2 to 4 rep range.  It bores me.  I'm sure if you went and read in my journal, my style of training and eatting precomp may just shock the hell out of you.

Like I said before....what works for one may not work for another, you just have to see what works best for you.  Bodies are not cookie cutters.


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## nikegurl (May 27, 2004)

Are we allowed to vote people off the IM island?    Just wondering....no particular reason.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

JLB001 all I'm going to continue to say is that physical results I've seen on ppl training & dieting with the lighter weights & higer reps scheme with lower calories is results speak louder than words so these women & men are doing something right.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

Results speak louder than words I'm done with this thread.

Results speak louder than words that is a fact.


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## JLB001 (May 27, 2004)

Well stop trying to shove it down our throats...I think we all got the point several pages back.


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## Saturday Fever (May 27, 2004)

OK, I've attached a picture. I'd like Johnny to guess how this guy trains.


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## JLB001 (May 27, 2004)

Ummm....with his fingers pointed?


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## austinite (May 27, 2004)

> My training style is to go HEAVY with HIGH reps.  It works for me. I NEVER train in the 2 to 4 rep range.



Huh? I think I've seen it all on this thread LOL.  High reps implies relatively lower weight.  If the weight was heavy, you wouldn't be able to manage high reps with good form.


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## Saturday Fever (May 27, 2004)

He stands about 5'10 and weighs 181, if that helps in the guessing process. He also holds the world record for squats for a 181lb class lifter with a squat over 838 pounds.


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## JLB001 (May 27, 2004)

So Austinite....you think I don't train this way?  PLEASE...bite me.  I know what I lift, I know the reps that I do, and I know my form is dead on.


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## Saturday Fever (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by austinite *_
> Huh? I think I've seen it all on this thread LOL.  High reps implies relatively lower weight.  If the weight was heavy, you wouldn't be able to manage high reps with good form.



Define heavy and high reps.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

Saturday Fever is that you?

Well I'm not saying he is or isn't, but he could be on some steroids but I'm not sure.

He is very lean with good muscular size. So I'm guess if he still doesn't now, at one point he for a long time he probably lifted very heavy for a long period of time to get that size. I don't know how tall he is, how much he weighs, or weighed before he ever started to train because that will determine a lot on how the individual will train.

He looks as though he has a very good diet & probably does some cardio maybe 3 times a week or more.

I'm sure he eats a good 4-6 meals a day. & getting enough protein & carbs, fruit & vegetables & water.

So that's it.

I see guys like that who trained heavy for a long time b/c they were only around 150 or 170lbs & needed size. Once they get the size they either continue lifting & dieting for mass or use higer reps & lighter weight with not as many calories just to keep what they have in other words maintain.

Again it's all individual on what the person wants & how their body is prior to when they first pick up a weight.


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## austinite (May 27, 2004)

It is a relative comparison, and the assumption is that your form is correct.  When a routine suggests doing 4 sets of 12, 10, 8 and 6 repetitions, the weight should get heavier with each progressive set.  Ideally the last rep is difficult to do.


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## greekblondechic (May 27, 2004)

Know-it-alls


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## Saturday Fever (May 27, 2004)

1) That is Phil Harrington. He lifts exclusively with heavy weights and low reps. Always has. He holds the world record for squats for 181lb lifters at over 838 pounds.

2) if 4 sets of 6 is high reps, then it's safe to say one can lift heavy and do high reps. According to Prilepin, 4 sets of 6 (24 reps) is optimal when lifting in the 70% of 1RM range. I deadlift 600lb. If I do 4 sets of 6 with 420lb, I'm lifting heavy and according to you for high reps.


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## austinite (May 27, 2004)

> 2) if 4 sets of 6 is high reps



It's not.


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## JLB001 (May 27, 2004)

kinda what I am thinking too Greekie.  Everyone trains differently, you can't knock what each person does.  If it works for them then who cares?

And Austinite...I'm 2 weeks out from a show, I would think I have my training down pretty well by now since I have been doing this for many years.  It's not like I'm the weekend warrior here.


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## Saturday Fever (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by austinite *_
> It is a relative comparison, and the assumption is that your form is correct.  When a routine suggests doing 4 sets of 12, 10, 8 and 6 repetitions, the weight should get heavier with each progressive set.  Ideally the last rep is difficult to do.





> _*Originally posted by austinite*_
> It's not.



That's not what you just said?


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## austinite (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by JLB001 *_
> kinda what I am thinking too Greekie.  Everyone trains differently, you can't knock what each person does.  If it works for them then who cares?
> 
> And Austinite...I'm 2 weeks out from a show, I would think I have my training down pretty well by now since I have been doing this for many years.  It's not like I'm the weekend warrior here.



You're right about everyone being different, I said as much above.  I was disputing your definition of high reps and heavy weight.  I think we're talking semantics here.

Good luck in your show.


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## austinite (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Saturday Fever *_
> That's not what you just said?


You were saying 6 reps is high, that was the lowest in the sequence.  I would not consider 6 high, but low.  But that is just me.


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## JLB001 (May 27, 2004)

High weights to me would be different than what you might lift since I am a girl.  High reps are to me 4 sets of 15 reps, etc.  Craig can attest to my form and my lifts at higher reps.  When I decide to do these type of workouts, it kills him since he is use to the normal 12, 10, 8 and 6.  Right now we are doing the 12, 10, 8, and 6 reps.  So we do use both.


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## austinite (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by JLB001 *_
> High weights to me would be different than what you might lift since I am a girl.  High reps are to me 4 sets of 15 reps, etc.



We are in agreement.  I think most consider high to be 12-15.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

Saturday Fever



> 1) That is Phil Harrington. He lifts exclusively with heavy weights and low reps. Always has. He holds the world record for squats for 181lb lifters at over 838 pounds.
> 
> 2) if 4 sets of 6 is high reps, then it's safe to say one can lift heavy and do high reps. According to Prilepin, 4 sets of 6 (24 reps) is optimal when lifting in the 70% of 1RM range. I deadlift 600lb. If I do 4 sets of 6 with 420lb, I'm lifting heavy and according to you for high reps.



Well I've never heard of him. Like I said it looks as though he has trained in the 2-4 rep range with heavy weights for a long time to get the size he has in the picture.

I would've been able to judge better if I'd known his height, weight/body type & the way he looked before he performed his first ever lift long ago I would've been able to judge better on how he trains.

I even see some big body builders doing really light weights with higher reps whether some of them are on juice I don't know, but I know for a fact that they must've lifted heavy with low reps. But it seems from their training that they don't want the bulkiness with their size. A couple of big tall guys at my gym only use machines & the light version of the smith macine & they don't go very heavy. Look wise they are very lean & not overly bulky.


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## nikegurl (May 27, 2004)

all i can say is good thing Phil isn't a woman.  if he were...and he trained heavy in those rep ranges he's be green and busting out of his clothes.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

nikegurl Phil does train in the heavy weight low rep range.

But like I said I don't know what  his body weight was way back in the day before he picked up his first barbell so I was taking a rough guess by looking at him & I wasn't far off.

Some women & men lift heavy for a certain number of years before they realize or are satisfied with their body & then alter their training to just maintain & stay lean.


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## JLB001 (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by ballerina *_
> is it possible to shrink leg muscles by overtraining them? For example, if one was to train legs moderately 3-4 times per week and do cardio/stairs after would they shrink.  I notice that long distance runners have little bulkiness in their legs.  Maybe lots of running would help?  My legs are starting to get too muscular but my trainer says it takes time.   any opinions...not that i don't like muscles but my legs look like turnips...you know the outer sweep thing is more than i would like to have Thanks


Back to the topic....Try sprints and the stairs/bleechers, it will lean them out and give them a good overall shape without being bulky.


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## Twin Peak (May 27, 2004)

In addition to the proliferation of general nonesense that everyone has already beaten to death I must add:

2-4 reps is (in general) no where close to being ideal for hypertrophy.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

Ballerina Do plenty of cardio as JLB001 said, maybe cut down on calories depending on your current diet. Things should start developing the way you want.


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## Dale Mabry (May 27, 2004)

I stole this from T-mag.  I only took the pertinent stuff.

They had 24 subjects undergo an endurance program over a period of 15 weeks. At the end of the study, muscle biopsies revealed a significant gain in the percentage of type I endurance muscle fiber qualities with a subsequent decrease in type IIB fiber qualities (1). 

Studies with endurance-training protocols demonstrated a decrease in size of aerobically-trained myofibrils. In other words, continuous aerobic training will decrease the size of the trained muscle fibers! The body forces the fibers to become smaller and thinner to achieve better perfusion (nutrient transfer) within the fibers (2). That's good for endurance, but very bad for hypertrophy. 

1. Simoneau, J.A. , G. Lortie, M.R. Bonlay, C.M. Marcotte, M.C. Thibault, and C. Bouchard. Human skeletal muscle fibre type alteration with high-intensity intermittent training. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 54:250-253, 1985.

2. Goldspink G. The proliferation of myofibrils during muscle fibre growth. J. Cell Sci. 6:593-603, 1970.



This would suggest long duration cardio would be your solution.  It also suggests that by training in the higher rep range you could change intermediate "power" fibers into "endurance" fibers which have a poorer aptitude for growth.  At the very least, current research has shown that you can change between "intermediate" and "full" power fibers by altering rep range which in and of itself supports the notion that different rep ranges will yield different results, diet held as constant.  I have oversimplified this to make sure everyone understands the material, it is actually much more complicated than this.

Wang N, Hikida RS, Staron RS, Simoneau JA.
Muscle fiber types of women after resistance training--quantitative ultrastructure and enzyme activity.  Pflugers Arch. 1993 Sep;424(5-6):494-502.  

Department of Biological Sciences, Ohio University, Athens 45701.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

Dale Mabry



> I stole this from T-mag. I only took the pertinent stuff.
> 
> They had 24 subjects undergo an endurance program over a period of 15 weeks. At the end of the study, muscle biopsies revealed a significant gain in the percentage of type I endurance muscle fiber qualities with a subsequent decrease in type IIB fiber qualities (1).
> 
> ...



Very helpful information, thank you.


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## JLB001 (May 27, 2004)

Sprints and running stairs are a totally different form of cardio, not anywhere close to a treadmill or ellipitcal.  The stopping and starting of the sprints changes the legs and the way they are shaped, these are hard to do on a treadmill.


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## Dale Mabry (May 27, 2004)

HIIT has been shown to INCREASE hypertrophy, however.


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## DrChiro (May 27, 2004)

Ok...i had a client just like you when i was a personal trainer.
she was a cheerleader all her life and the cardio and jumps just put on bulk to her legs (a muscular toned look that i like but that wasnt appealing to her)

she was an interesting case because no matter what we did her legs got bigger....high reap, low rep, HIT, extra cardio....the only thing that finally worked was to stop training legs all together and just do some rope jumping.....we kept her butt toned with some of the old floor exercises (fire hydrants and leg kick backs).

I guess the answer is that you have to try it all and see what works for you....pilates and yoga are good ways to stay toned and not increase mass.

I would avoid overtraining as this can mead to injury and mess with your hormone levels as well. You may want to decrease the amount of protein you consume if you are getting a high amount....this may cause atrophy.

If you want to go the rug route.....ask your doctor for cytomel...it is a thyroid drug that will lead to weight loss and is notorius for burning up muscle. I do advise that if you go this route...only do so under your doctor's supervision.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

DrChiro


> Ok...i had a client just like you when i was a personal trainer.
> she was a cheerleader all her life and the cardio and jumps just put on bulk to her legs (a muscular toned look that i like but that wasnt appealing to her)



She obviously had the genetics for big legs when it came to training.

I was just curious for a man, not speaking for myself but for a 50yr old friend of my father who still has good muscle mass & strength, does cardio & diet well he is mostly just trying to maintain & stay lean. But for some reason with all the cardio & dieting he does, he just can't seem to get rid of the last 10lbs from his stomach (well everywhere you know what I mean) that he gained during his 40's.

I over heard my father & this guy & his wife talking about getting him on Windsor Pilates since you mention Windsor Pilates.
Do you think that Windsor Pilates will do a better job getting rid of his small remaining stomach as opposed to his already hard training, good diet & sprints for cardio?


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## JLB001 (May 27, 2004)

Damn Johnnny you ease drop alot.


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## Dale Mabry (May 27, 2004)

Absolutely not.  His issue is related to diet, Johnny.


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## Jodi (May 27, 2004)

Damn I missed a good thread yesterday. 

Personally, to lean out my legs, I prefer doing it strength training style - 4 reps, heavy weight.


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## DrChiro (May 27, 2004)

austinite...let me explain some of JLB001's comments.

of course if you are going close to your max (85-90%), the amout of reps you can get is going to be limited...that is a given.

Jodie trains heavy all the time....and for some reason even when she pyramids up in weight she can still crank out 12-15 reps at about 80% of her max.....that is damn impressive. In all my years of lifting and training i have never seen anyone able to this except Jodie...just a testament to the fact that EVERYBODY IS DIFFERENT (like jodie said).

as far as general rules go....there are certainly some methods that seem to work for most people depending on their goals....certaily try these tested methods first....but if you dont get the results you want dont keep following a plan that doesnt work...get creative.


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## austinite (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by DrChiro *_
> austinite...let me explain some of JLB001's comments.
> 
> of course if you are going close to your max (85-90%), the amout of reps you can get is going to be limited...that is a given.
> ...



I think she explained herself pretty well, doc.  

I would still respectfully suggest that if she can do 12-15 reps at 80%, to re-check her 1 rep max because it is probably a lot higher that she thinks or else she wouldn't be able to do that many.

Which would mean what she is calling 80% is actually 70 or 60%.


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## JLB001 (May 27, 2004)

OMG...can I just beat my head against the wall here?   

I think with Craig's knowledge in lifting and training other people he knows what he is talking about.  He's been training with me for the past 1 1/2 years, he knows my lifts and what I do very well.  My 80% is not 60 to 70%, its sad when I can outlift alot of the guys in the gym.  Maybe they need to put the girlie weights away and start lifting like a boy.

Sitting two weeks out, my lifts have just now started to come down some and this is on a diet of 1200 calories a day, plus cardio 2 x a day.  In fact before this week, all my lifts have gone up plus I have some added muscle size that I have gained all while dieting.  I know my body and I know what I am able to do and not do.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

JLB001 it is spelled Eavesdropping & no I'm giving my insight on the subject as you are.


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## JLB001 (May 27, 2004)

LOL... sorry about the spelling.   It was never my best subject in school.


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## Dale Mabry (May 27, 2004)

Those percentage charts are way off for me as well.  I used to guesstimate my 1rm from my 4rm, but when I would put what my calculated 1rm was, I would still generally be able to do 10-20lbs heavier than that.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

Ballerina back to the subject on hand I wouldn't advise over training on purpose as you'll burn yourself out eventually.

Keep your diet in check. Do about 20-40mins of cardio average of 4 times a week. Rest on your off days.

One thing that might help take away the bulkiness is spending more time on stretching your legs in more than one way maybe 10-20mins several times a week.


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## DrChiro (May 27, 2004)

yeah thats it...get on the stairmaster 4 times a week and see how much smaller your legs get....i'm so sure that will work....when they get even bigger than they are now make sure you tell Johnny thanks.


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## Saturday Fever (May 27, 2004)

If you don't train for a 1RM (ie like a powerlifter) then how can you accurately judge what is 80%. I'm not knocking anyone, just posing the question. If you never workout in a way that is intended to train and improve your 1RM, then you absolutely cannot accurately say "this is 80%." Because even if you dropped your usual routine and attempted a 1RM, it would not be a true 1RM because you did not train up to it. Your CNS will be a huge limiting factor. Just food for thought, I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes.


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## DrChiro (May 27, 2004)

austinite...i am pretty sure our #'s are accurate....we keep very detailed records of Jodie's lifts...and it's not like I am new at this.

IMO....Jodie has a very balanced blend of type I and type II muscle fibers giving her increased rep ranges even when her weights are higher.

We have hit her true max in various lifts.....especially bench press where she has only gotten one true rep.....so I know what the percentages are...not just by using some chart.

by just dropping a little bit of weight off her one rep max (maybe 10 pounds off the bench)...all of a sudden she is crankin out 12 reps.....it is freaky.

only time i have ever seen it...so i guess i would be as skeptical as you are if i were in your shoes....but trust me.....it is what it is.


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## Saturday Fever (May 27, 2004)

> by just dropping a little bit of weight off her one rep max (maybe 10 pounds off the bench)...all of a sudden she is crankin out 12 reps.....it is freaky.



Like I said, that is not her rue 1RM because she does not train her 1RM per her posts and yours.


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## DrChiro (May 27, 2004)

saturday...i agree with you...and we dont use the percentages consistently because you are right...we are not powerlifters.

CNS does play a huge factor in the lifts and actually where as most people are forced to decrease their weights as a result of a contest diet...Jodie's poundages have gone up considerably.

I attribute this to her focus on the goal of the show.....showing that the CNS can really influence your lifts.

now we are 2 weeks out and finally she is noticing some weaker than normal lifts...but for the preceeding 12 weeks....all she has done is gone UP in weight.


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## Saturday Fever (May 27, 2004)

Her dedication is very apparent. I'm sure she'll do very well in her show. Best of luck to you both.


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## DrChiro (May 27, 2004)

damn.....i train with her...i know what the hell she does...damn.
it is impossible to get an accurate 1 rep max...there are too many variables at any given time to say..this is for sure my best lift right now!

but we have attempted it....even if we didnt post it....we just did it for our own benefit....so as close as we were able to come is the # we use.....but we dont put much weight (no pun intended)...on that # because it is so variable.

we simply use the overload principle....making sure that each week we increase our poundages when we arent so close to a contest.


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## DrChiro (May 27, 2004)

saturday.....obviously from the #'s posted as your signature, you are a powerlifter....and i know how important the #'s and percentages are for you guys....i have many friends who were powerlifters.

as a bodybuilder they arent as importnat......at least not IMO as long as from week to week you see your lifts going up.

thank you for the good wishes in the show....the same to you in your next meet.


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## P-funk (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Saturday Fever *_
> If you don't train for a 1RM (ie like a powerlifter) then how can you accurately judge what is 80%. I'm not knocking anyone, just posing the question. If you never workout in a way that is intended to train and improve your 1RM, then you absolutely cannot accurately say "this is 80%." Because even if you dropped your usual routine and attempted a 1RM, it would not be a true 1RM because you did not train up to it. Your CNS will be a huge limiting factor. Just food for thought, I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes.




I agree, your 1RM is your 1RM and if you don't train to hit it then you have no idea what it really is.  I do work in percentages with a lot of my clients but they are not profesional athletes, they are regular everyday people and hitting there 1RM is not important to them (as it is to someone like you or I).  I do test to see what there 10RM is.  Which is aprox. 75% of their 1RM (just an aproximation) and that helps me to very the intensity of workouts and periodize training without having to worry about trying to get them to max out (in most cases with the general public it is hard to get them to do a 15RM let alone a 1RM..lol).  So, although the percentages don't really tell you what your 1RM is they can help you in someways....Stuff you already know I am sure but just some info for the others that don't workout with percentages.


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## Johnnny (May 27, 2004)

DrChiro


> yeah thats it...get on the stairmaster 4 times a week and see how much smaller your legs get....i'm so sure that will work....when they get even bigger than they are now make sure you tell Johnny thanks.



Just out of curiosity, where did you get that I said to do the stairmaster 4 times a week? I didn't even mention stairmaster.

I'm talking about running or the eyliptic cycle, the walking & cycling combo & even the stationary bike. 

Spending 10-15mins 4-5 times a week stretching your legs will also help take away that bulky look.


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## Saturday Fever (May 27, 2004)

> Spending 10-15mins 4-5 times a week stretching your legs will also help take away that bulky look.


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## Var (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> Spending 10-15mins 4-5 times a week stretching your legs will also help take away that bulky look.



 
Holy shit, Johnny!  Please tell me you are NOT a personal trainer.  Please!


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## Novo (May 27, 2004)

No, silly 'ole Var - he's read a BB encyclopedia and a book by Arnie, didn't you READ this entire, ridiculous thread??

I can't believe I got sucked back in and replied. I am so disappointed in myself  

Now, I'm off to stretch off my bulk. I've been making the mistake of lifting heavy lately, shit, Johnny would say I'm looking like a damn female hulk already


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## Var (May 27, 2004)




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## nikegurl (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Novo *_
> Now, I'm off to stretch off my bulk. I've been making the mistake of lifting heavy lately, shit, Johnny would say I'm looking like a damn female hulk already



Novo...I've been noticing a bit of a green hue to my skin lately and buttons are popping off left and right.  

Not sure what I can do though - I'm pretty flexible already.  

Here's one possible idea...

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32123


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## Novo (May 27, 2004)

NG, you are a true genius - I want to try that asap 

And in the meantime, you had it right yesterday ... step AWAY from the weights ladies, back onto the cardio machines please (and eat less - skinny is apparently where it's at). WOMEN - KNOW YOUR PLACE!!


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## JLB001 (May 27, 2004)

I never know my place.  I always buttheads!  And anyone who tells me to stick to just cardio and not lift heavy can kiss my azz.


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## nikegurl (May 27, 2004)




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## PreMier (May 27, 2004)

Yup, I have said it before, and I will say it again.  Johnnny is a self absorbed sorry person.  Everything he says has to be right, not once have I seen him admit to being wrong.  I wish Prince was a bit more strict, and would ban the trolls such as him.


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## nikegurl (May 27, 2004)

i did post an idea in the suggestions area that we have a rating system for members based on quality of posts.  when you read something that makes you say WOW.  that was intelligent.  you give them positive reputation points.  when you read something that is typical Johnny you can give negative.  

have no idea if it's feasible but some forums use it.


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## PreMier (May 27, 2004)

The problem with that would be that some people could give someone a bunch of positive or negative.  Unless only allowed to vote once?  Not to mention that people carry grudges(IE: Johnnny against everyone who disagrees with him) and could give misleading feedback.


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## LAM (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> I am in full agreement so far.
> 
> 
> ...



adding on to what Twin Peak has already stated...

The body is either in a full body state of anabolism or catabolism.  If you want to lose lean body mass in your legs you would have to at the expensive of lean muscle tissue all over your body...that of course would slow down your resting metabolic rate and undoubtedly have a very negative effect on your endocrine system...


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## nikegurl (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by PreMier *_
> The problem with that would be that some people could give someone a bunch of positive or negative.  Unless only allowed to vote once?  Not to mention that people carry grudges(IE: Johnnny against everyone who disagrees with him) and could give misleading feedback.



true.  the place i saw it in use tells you that you have to spread reputation points around before giving more (bad or good) to someone you've already rated.

it probably would get out of hand though and be a huge undertaking.

also i wouldn't want it used when people disagree on stuff like whether a postworkout insulin spike is necessary or whether you can shape a muscle etc.  (you know the topics that make people crazy over and over)

it would only be for someone who goes around saying outrageous ridiculous stuff.

i doubt it would work....


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## Jodi (May 27, 2004)

Johnny, Not one person agrees with you here and that includes all the women that have posted in this thread.  Are you starting to think that there is a slight possibility your giving wrong advice.  

I feel sorry for those women that you train.


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## Var (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by nikegurl *_
> true.  the place i saw it in use tells you that you have to spread reputation points around before giving more (bad or good) to someone you've already rated.
> 
> it probably would get out of hand though and be a huge undertaking.
> ...



Maybe it could be set up so that only mods rate people.  

Either way, I think its better than getting more strict about banning people.  I love the freedom here.  I'd hate to see it go the route other sites have gone.


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## PreMier (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> Johnny, Not one person agrees with you here and that includes all the women that have posted in this thread.  Are you starting to think that there is a slight possibility your giving wrong advice.
> 
> I feel sorry for those women that you train.




Exactly, could someone point me to the "terms of agreement" of this site


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## nikegurl (May 27, 2004)

maybe instead of voting people off the island (banning) we could make them wear a scarlet letter or something.  an "f" for foolio?


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## Var (May 27, 2004)




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## Vieope (May 27, 2004)

_Someone is gonna be banned? Cool.
Let me be the next one, oh come on...  _


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## Var (May 27, 2004)

I dont think anyones getting banned.  Especially not you, Rabbit!!!


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## Vieope (May 27, 2004)

_Damn it.  _


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## Jodi (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by nikegurl *_
> maybe instead of voting people off the island (banning) we could make them wear a scarlet letter or something.  an "f" for foolio?


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## nmuriqi (May 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> In addition to the proliferation of general nonesense that everyone has already beaten to death I must add:
> 
> 2-4 reps is (in general) no where close to being ideal for hypertrophy.



OK, good point, but what is ideal for hypertrophy?


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## Johnnny (May 28, 2004)

As for being a trainer I'm reading my books for my certification.

& they say for women wanting a lean slender, defined physique lighter weights with higher reps & lower calorie diet with lifting & plenty of cardio. I never said to just do cardio alone.

So none of you think that spending time stretching out all of your legs several times a week will also give a leaner, longer muslced look?

For me personally if I do too much stretching several times a week, my legs wouldn't be as thick. When I was doing my grappling courses we had to stretch the legs every class. I noticed that my legs started losing their thickness & started to get longer. After I stopped my grappling courses & stopped all the stretching the thickness to my legs returned & I didn't do anything different to my leg routine or diet.

I guess than the certification courses are all wrong including the information that they teach to new trainers.

Since you guys know everything about everything I done with this retarded thread. 

Ballerina go ahead & listen to some of these ppl & lift heavy & lower reps & diet for it. But you won't decrease the bulkiness or thickness of your legs that way.


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## LAM (May 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by nmuriqi *_
> OK, good point, but what is ideal for hypertrophy?



8-12 reps is optimum for hypertrophy or a TUT of around 60 seconds...


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## JLB001 (May 28, 2004)

Reading Books?  With the advice you have dished out so far, I think you might want to throw those books out and find new ones.

By the way....do you have a pic you can post of yourself so we can see what you actually do look like?  I'm just curious.

I do agree stetching does help in making the muscles longer, but not that it would help decrease the overall bulk that may be there.

And..speaking from someone who has shit for genetics in the leg dept. what you have suggested would NEVER work on me.  Been there, done that.  The only thing that has worked with me and bringing the size down was sprints and stadiums.


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## Jodi (May 28, 2004)

I'm certified too and I've yet to see a certification book that actually dictates good information.  Those books are crap.  You learn them just to take the test, but you use real life experience to train.  I would never train any of my clients the book way.


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## JLB001 (May 28, 2004)

They do not teach the real world stuff in those books.  I have read the ones Craig has, had me thinking WTF?

Jodi....can you imagine what your clients would be thinking if you told them all that stuff?


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## Johnnny (May 28, 2004)

JLB001



> Reading Books? With the advice you have dished out so far, I think you might want to throw those books out and find new ones.



Well the current book I'm reading is by a personal trainer who's been in the game for about 30yrs & is about 50 or so years old & still looking good.

He got scholarships to play football to go from Canada to the United States & play for NCAA Division 1 & 2 schools & played professional football, & has trained many ppl inluding females, female bodybuilders, fitness models, male football players, female pro bodybuilders & male pro IFBB bodybuilders such as Paul Dillette & Aaron Baker. So this guy has 30yrs experience & you can't beat experience & he knows his sh!t.



> By the way....do you have a pic you can post of yourself so we can see what you actually do look like? I'm just curious.



As I've said many times, I'm waiting until I get my conditioning back as it got out of whack do to my Iodine treatment for my hyper thyroid. The ephedrine/ephedra supplements I took caused this problem as I had no prior thyroid condition. The Iodine treatment caused me to uncontrolably gain bodyfat even with diet & training as it shut down the thyroid & I eventually had the hormone replaced with synthroid. But if I posted a pic right now you would see someone who's 5f9.5 & about 215lbs with good muscularity & thickness with some fat on his stomach. I'm currently using 15-20mins of heavy incline sprints for cutting which is working really well after just a few weeks. So I'm waiting until my conditioning is back to normal.



> I do agree stetching does help in making the muscles longer, but not that it would help decrease the overall bulk that may be there.



Like I said, I experience a decrease in leg thickness when I was stretching my legs 4-5 times a week for my grappling course I lost thickness to my legs & I did nothing different to my leg routine, diet or cardio. When I stopped all the stretching, the thickness & muscle fullness came back.



> And..speaking from someone who has shit for genetics in the leg dept. what you have suggested would NEVER work on me. Been there, done that. The only thing that has worked with me and bringing the size down was sprints and stadiums.



You say you have sh!t genetics in the leg department & what I suggested wouldn't work for me & you've done that.

What I get from this statement is that you are trying to increase the size of your leg muscles which is why this would never work for you. Well if you are trying to increase the size of your leg muscles & you don't have good genetics, than no it wouldn't work for you. You would be someone who would need to train heavier & lower reps & eat more food if thicker legs is your goal as that's the impression you give me.


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## JLB001 (May 28, 2004)

> Well the current book I'm reading is by a personal trainer who's been in the game for about 30yrs & is about 50 or so years old & still looking good.
> 
> He got scholarships to play football to go from Canada to the United States & play for NCAA Division 1 & 2 schools & played professional football, & has trained many ppl inluding females, female bodybuilders, fitness models, male football players, female pro bodybuilders & male pro IFBB bodybuilders such as Paul Dillette & Aaron Baker. So this guy has 30yrs experience & you can't beat experience & he knows his sh!t.


I have Paul's phone number....should I call him for you?
And I HAVE been trained by an IFBB pro and know way too many of them, so my knowledge does not come from a book.


And the stadiums and sprints might work for Ballarina.  Which is who that statement was for.


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## nikegurl (May 28, 2004)

* F *

Foolio.


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## Johnnny (May 28, 2004)

JLB001



> I have Paul's phone number....should I call him for you?
> And I HAVE been trained by an IFBB pro and know way too many of them, so my knowledge does not come from a book.



You have Paul Dillette's phone number? Yeah right. Besides, are you trying to brag or are in some competition with me or something? 

The point I was making was this guy whom I'm referring to knows his sh!t.


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## DrChiro (May 28, 2004)

Johnny...giving the credentials of the guy who's book your reading is pretty damn weak man. I have read numerous books by all the "top" guys in fitness and bodybuilding and I dont agree with everything I read.

Hopefully you are smart enough to realize that you are likely to read opposing views...even to your "special" book that you are reading.

I have both ACE and AFAA certification...and have been training or training people for 10 years +....I speak from EXPERIENCE...MY OWN EXPERIENCE AND THE EXPERIENCE OF MY CLIENTS, MYSELF, AND MY FRIENDS...not from what some other guy experienced.

Your little piece of paper you may get if you pass your trainer test doesn't mean shit....all it means is you can legally train people...it doesnt men you know what you are talking about or that you will get your clients good results.

It really is so individual...thats why its PERSONAL training....because everyone is different.....use what you read as guidelines....but I promise they will not always yield the results you hope for. That is where your true skill and experience will be tested and from what I hear so far.....you wont pass that test unless you change your attitude.

oh..and i'm sorry about your thyroid problem caused by ephedra supposedly....if you cant even take care of your own body how are you supposed to be able to take care of your client's?


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## JLB001 (May 28, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> JLB001
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn...doesn't it piss you off that all I have to do is pick up the phone and call?  

And yes...I do have his number for real.


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## Johnnny (May 28, 2004)

JLB001



> Damn...doesn't it piss you off that all I have to do is pick up the phone and call?
> 
> And yes...I do have his number for real.



Naw it doesn't piss me off at all that you "have" his number. Paul Dillet used to train at my old gym in one area of Montreal for a long time. They have many pictures of him alone & with the owner. & he has trained with this guy I'm talking about who has 30yrs experiece plus played for Divisioin 1 NCAA football schools & professional football. So go ahead & call him.

DrChiro



> Johnny...giving the credentials of the guy who's book your reading is pretty damn weak man. I have read numerous books by all the "top" guys in fitness and bodybuilding and I dont agree with everything I read.
> 
> Hopefully you are smart enough to realize that you are likely to read opposing views...even to your "special" book that you are reading.
> 
> ...



All I have to say to you say you speak from your experiences & that of your clients well as some ppl here would say to me, that doesn't mean anything.

As for knowing what I'm talking about, all the information I'm learning & reading has be written by this individual who's been in the game for 30yrs. Do you have 30yrs experience under your belt? Probably not. Plus he had a University degree in exercise science or something of that manner & learned all about the functions of the body.



> oh..and i'm sorry about your thyroid problem caused by ephedra supposedly....if you cant even take care of your own body how are you supposed to be able to take care of your client's?



With that smart assed remark all I have to say is scr^w you as we don't know how drugs & supplements will react in each individual's body before it's too late after you take them. It wasn't my fault as I didn't know I'd react that way to the ephedrine/ephedra. I'm healthy now & getting back into very good condition with size. As for taking care of clients I would do just that & not recommend these forms of supplements.


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## Twin Peak (May 28, 2004)

I take back everything I previously wrote, since I am obviously clueless, as I don't have a training certificate.

I did read Arnold's encyclopedia once, does that count?

I think what everyone fails to realize is that experience is all well and good, but if the "knowledge" derived from that "experience" is a load of crap, than who gives a %$%^# how "experienced" you are.

There are few absolutes to bodybuilding, and most everything varies across each individual, but if you are ignorant enough to make comments that violate the few truths that exist, then well, you are ignorant.


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## Saturday Fever (May 28, 2004)

I only have 2 years of experience, and I can school people. I also like to toot my own horn.  

But TP is right.


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## Johnnny (May 28, 2004)

Twin Peak



> I take back everything I previously wrote, since I am obviously clueless, as I don't have a training certificate.
> 
> I did read Arnold's encyclopedia once, does that count?
> 
> ...




I never said you were clueless. I'm saying is I trust someone with an exercise science & biology degree & 30yrs experience in this business playing for NCAA Division 1 football teams, & having trained pro female & pro male bodybuilders, atheletes, football players, fitness models you name it.

30yrs of quality experience & knowledge is what I believe. All I can say is there aren't too many ppl here with 30 or even 20yrs experience. 

Another very intelligent person is Roy Callender who was training since the 1970's & trains ppl at my old gym including many women. So I believe veteran experience more than anything else. You will get the most out of someone who's been in the game that long & training themselves even longer.


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## JLB001 (May 28, 2004)

Football is NOT Bodybuilding.  Dude, get your head outta your ass.  

Twin Peaks nailed it on the head this time with his post.  Haven't you got the clue yet Johnny that we don't really give a rat's azz what your books say?  Too us, personal experience and how things work for each individual matter more to us than books or book knowledge.  There is a BIG difference in being book smart and have street smarts...And to be honest if you are basing everything you do off those books and that 30 so called yrs of experience...Your setting yourself up to fail before you ever begin. Your knowledge in BBing is truly lacking....Maybe you should discuss football instead?  Or grappling for that matter, I'm sure Craig could explain that more in detail too.

hell I'm sick of reading the crap you type.  It's a total bore.


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## DrChiro (May 28, 2004)

The truth of the matter is that if you actually spoke to the guy who wrote the book...i bet he would be inclined to agree with us and would probably tell you  something along these lines:

"i wrote that book as a guideline....general rules to follow.....the most likely ways to reach the goals of most people. I did NOT INTEND for it to be the bible of training....nor is every word written in my book, law....i do have a hell of alot of experience and i know that everybody is different...take what i have written and add your own experience to come up with your own methods."

as far as his knowledge...i think you will find plenty of knowledge on this board. And sometimes knowledge that goes too far back is outdated if the person isn't open minded enough to chage his ways with the times.

that would be like someone reading arnold encyclopedia of bodybuilding and following it to the letter....he has some experience and knowledge of the body i would say...but even he wouldn't reccomend that everybody trains like him.

my degree was in nutrition and exercise science....then i went on to get my doctorate in chiropractic (4 years of medical school)...twin peaks.....just read some of his stuff...he knows his shit.

i guess the true test will be time...and how your clients look when you train them...that is the only true measure of a trainer's skill. so all this banter back and fort, while fun, is really pointless....since you disregard our collective experience (which i am sure exceeds 30 years)....you have your mind made up and sometimes you just cant change that. 

I would say that from our point of view you seem arrogant....ignorant....close minded....and the fact that you support your argument not based on what you have seen, but rather only what you have read shows that you lack real world experience and we all know that book knowledge only takes you so far.....i'm just glad that i have both so i dont come across sounding as ignorant as you.


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## DrChiro (May 28, 2004)

it seems you really have a "thing" for this guy who wrote the book you're reading. maybe we can look him up and we can get his address for you...then you can go over to his house...get on your knees...and blow him. 


sound good?....you know you want to.


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## JLB001 (May 28, 2004)

Stalker.


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## P-funk (May 28, 2004)

DrChiro said:
			
		

> it seems you really have a "thing" for this guy who wrote the book you're reading. maybe we can look him up and we can get his address for you...then you can go over to his house...get on your knees...and blow him.
> 
> 
> sound good?....you know you want to.



LOL, it appears that you and JLB are in the same situation that I am with this kid


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## Johnnny (May 28, 2004)

JLB001



> Football is NOT Bodybuilding. Dude, get your head outta your ass.
> 
> Twin Peaks nailed it on the head this time with his post. Haven't you got the clue yet Johnny that we don't really give a rat's azz what your books say? Too us, personal experience and how things work for each individual matter more to us than books or book knowledge. There is a BIG difference in being book smart and have street smarts...And to be honest if you are basing everything you do off those books and that 30 so called yrs of experience...Your setting yourself up to fail before you ever begin. Your knowledge in BBing is truly lacking....Maybe you should discuss football instead? Or grappling for that matter, I'm sure Craig could explain that more in detail too.
> 
> hell I'm sick of reading the crap you type. It's a total bore.



Are you that dense? He always did bodybuilding during football, why do you think he knows so much about it & has worked with IFBB pro's like Paul Dillet & Aaron Baker? Because he did years of bodybuilding training & diet.


DrChiro



> it seems you really have a "thing" for this guy who wrote the book you're reading. maybe we can look him up and we can get his address for you...then you can go over to his house...get on your knees...and blow him.



First thing you can blow yourself. As for having a "thing" for him, the only thing I have for him is respect for what he has done in the body building world
& the help he's provided for men & women & youths. Personally I think you swing the other way as you seem to know a lot about going to other mens houses & blowing them from your statement. I personally get blown by a beautiful young woman, & this guys sexy wife who I met takes care of him plenty, what about you? It also seems like you have a "thing" for Arnold as you always talk about him. But I doubt you'll have a chance to get that close to him with all the security now that he's govenor, you should've tried when he was just an actor.

P-funk


> LOL, it appears that you and JLB are in the same situation that I am with this kid



First off I'm not any kid here, I bet I'm older than you, & I already know I'm more mature. P-funk just can't accept that he's wrong about something & even the wise & knowledgeable Prince agrees with me on it despite the study he posted.

JLB001



> Stalker.



One I have a girlfriend & 2 from the other things I've read about you from old posts You're the one who's a freak.


You dudes can say whatever you want but 30yrs bodybuilding, 30yrs personal training & 30yrs knowledge is all I have to say. So what the guy played football. He knows more about proper bodybuilding training & diet than football training. How do you think he's trained female & male pro bodybuilders? As well as regular ppl & fitness models & so on. Because he has 30yrs of knowledge. 30yrs experience=results & proper information. You can't argue with 30yrs under your belt.


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## JLB001 (May 28, 2004)

So what is this great persons name so I can personally call Paul and ask him if he even knows this person?  Don't try and blow too much smoke up my azz, I know way too many people in this business to call your bluff.

I'm a freak?  Gawd I love jealousy.

And for who blows Dr. Chiro...that would be me.  Thanks for your concern about who does him.


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## Johnnny (May 28, 2004)

His name is Glenn Cunningham. 

Here is a link: http://www.corfit.com/bioglen.htm


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## scottrtrout (May 29, 2004)

So this is what has been going on while I was gone.  Is this guy posting stuff like this on all the threads?   It's a good thing he has that book imagen what he would be sayin if he didn't even have that? Very entertaining thread tho. lol


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## Johnnny (May 29, 2004)

scottrtrout 



> So this is what has been going on while I was gone.  Is this guy posting stuff like this on all the threads?  It's a good thing he has that book imagen what he would be sayin if he didn't even have that? Very entertaining thread tho. lol



One, these ppl wanted to know who the 30yr of experience veteran I was talking about & 

2 that BS you say about what would not having his book & what I would say is full of it. Even without the book I've learned a sh!t load of proper information from female trainers, male trainers, strength coaches, power lifters & bodybuilders both natural & steroid enhanced & I have 10yrs of training & dieting under my belt so I know a descent amount like it or not.


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## scottrtrout (May 29, 2004)

This is funny   Calm down guy. All you have to do is prove yourself. Show what your 10 yrs have built you.


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## Johnnny (May 29, 2004)

scottrtrout

Don't take offense to this, but what are you on to get that ripped?

You say you are natural? I'm not buying that. But anyway you look good.


As I've said over & over again I'm waiting to post pics until my conditioning returns to normal as I've suffered a set back. But it's slowly returning. My upper abs are already showing through. It's just the lower abs that are more of the problem but that annoying bit of fat is slowly shedding away.


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## JLB001 (May 29, 2004)

Scott...Johnny isn't worth the effort or trouble.  Let him be lost in his books.

Oh and Johnny....why knock the naturals like Scott?  Haven't you ever heard of eatting clean and putting in the hard work?    You show no pics because your embaressed.  Maybe Johnnny can get ripped by following his book to a T.


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## scottrtrout (May 29, 2004)

I know that's why I didn't respond. I just think it's funny. People that know the one and only way to be a bodybuilder. lol


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## Johnnny (May 30, 2004)

JLB001



> Scott...Johnny isn't worth the effort or trouble. Let him be lost in his books.
> 
> Oh and Johnny....why knock the naturals like Scott? Haven't you ever heard of eatting clean and putting in the hard work? You show no pics because your embaressed. Maybe Johnnny can get ripped by following his book to a T.



Personally I don't like you or your attitude. I've already explained myself about showing pics & I will once my good conditioning returns & it is already starting to return. Yes as I said I am slightly & it's spelled "embarrassed" learn to write. I've explained myself many times of why I'm waiting to post until my normally good condition returns. 

Like I said I had a bad reaction to the ephedrine/ephedra & thermogenic fat burners. My thyroid levels remained in the hyper state & I went from about 225lbs with good condition for that weight at my 5ft9 height to 200lbs in less than 4 weeks & couldn't train anymore until I got my treatment. 

& last august they gave me idodine treatment which shutdown my thyroid & I was warned by the endocrinologist that I would uncontrolably gain body fat without any thyroid hormones & I did even despit a clean diet, interval cardio training & hitting every muscle every week hard. The endocrinologist said they were still surpised I had the energy to go to the gym lift over 245lbs on bench & still do my cardio. As normally ppl who have that treatment wouldn't have the energy or desire to do anything physical.

So I wouldn't be criticising my physique jagoff as you don't know what I've been through, & what I've been through to bring my body halfway back to where it was when I was 225lbs. But even now if I posted a pic I would still show good size for my body structure at 210lbs with even now reasonable condtitioning. Like I've said already it's just my mid section that's the little problem & it's already slowly shedding away. My cardio invovles sprint training using incline angles which is damn hard especially after 50mins of lifting.


As for being really ripped I have 2 beliefs on how it's done. Personally I think most of it is steroids from the ppl that I've met & am friends with. Like bodybuilder Larry Vinette. He isn't a 220lb ripped bodybuilder. He is a 180-195lbs ripped I believe in that picture on another thread. It says he's a pro natural bodybuilder, but one contest a few buddies of mine went to of his he took 1st place. The following week he had his title revoked b/c of steroids. He always told us what he was on including a 2 week period of GH/Insulin but had to stop as his jaw was getting bigger.

I do believe however it is easier for much lighter ppl to get in good condition much quicker than heavier, more muscled ppl. I have a friend who is 5ft9 & weighs 165lbs. He started training for the first time last summer & after 6 months only he was very vascular at around 173lbs but would never go much higher.

I'm off to Toronto this morning for awhile & I will probably get to speak with IFBB Pro Markus Rhul again. I spoke to him for awhile last year when he was in Toronto for a show & the year before when he won the Toronto. So I'll be able to get some veteran/pro advice & opinions on training things.


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## JLB001 (May 30, 2004)

Do you really think it hurts my feelings that you don't like me or my attitude?  I could really careless what you think of me.

Craig started at 217 at 5'6 appx. 17 weeks ago and now sits at 172, so anything is poss. if you have the will and desire to do so.  Plus KNOWLEDGE in your body, what works for that person, etc all does come into play.  It's knowledge that is not obtained from a book or from listening to hear say from others etc.  In this sport, opinions are like assholes.....everyone has one.

I do wish you luck on obtaining your goal of getting your body back.  We know the hard work that it entails and how tedious it can be.  I just see it as a shame that you want to rely on books that may have outdated material to base your training and weightloss off of.  Take what's in those books and taylor it to you.


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## Johnnny (May 30, 2004)

JLB001 



> Do you really think it hurts my feelings that you don't like me or my attitude? I could really careless what you think?



Personally I don't care what you think, what matters is what I shit of your poor attitude.



> Craig started at 217 at 5'6 appx. 17 weeks ago and now sits at 172, so anything is poss. if you have the will and desire to do so. Plus KNOWLEDGE in your body, what works for that person, etc all does come into play. It's knowledge that is not obtained from a book or from listening to hear say from others etc. In this sport, opinions are like assholes.....everyone has one.



You see I don't have much body fat to lose at 210lbs as it is mostly muscle at that weight. To me books are only a tool to give you more knowledge to help you helpy ourself.



> I do wish you luck on obtaining your goal of getting your body back. We know the hard work that it entails and how tedious it can be. I just see it as a shame that you want to rely on books that may have outdated material to base your training and weightloss off of. Take what's in those books and taylor it to you.



I never said I rely on books I use them as a tool. & the books I read including the one from my course are up to date as well as the information that 30yr veteran Glenn Cunningham teaches.

As for being completely shredded in my opinion you can only go so far until your results will come to a hault & need the aid of hormonal compounds such as Winstrol, parabolan, & Deca Durabolan/nandralone decanoate to name a few steroids commonly used for more cutting than mass but very often combined with some sort of testosterone or D-Bol.

I have a friend who is really ripped at 195lbs & is half way through a cycle of parabolan, Winstrol & clenbuterol & has gotten really good results.


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## chronic (May 30, 2004)

PLZ DONT STOP DA MADNESS!!!        i dont care if this thread goes 20 pages i'm still probably gonna get a good laugh over it


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## JLB001 (May 30, 2004)

He isn't worth anymore of my replys.....It falls upon deaf ears.  Good Luck.

I will not comment on steriods as I do not know enough about them to do so.  But I do know you can get shredded with the proper diet without the use of steriods.  Cardio and Diet does wonders.  Once you hit the point that the diet isn't working, it requires a little tweaking to get in motion again.

So your saying that an Ectomorph couldn't get shredded without the use of hormones?  How sad.  You do need to go back to that guy with the so called 30 yrs of experience.

if you don't like my attitude...then don't responde.


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## Twin Peak (May 30, 2004)

What a minute.

Who the hell are all these new moderators?  Geez, I need to get my head out of the sand.


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## JLB001 (May 31, 2004)

Hi TP.  I'm the other Jodie.


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## Johnnny (May 31, 2004)

JLB001



> He isn't worth anymore of my replys.....It falls upon deaf ears. Good Luck.



I don't know what I was thinking actually wasting all that time responding to your crap when I could've been on an actually productive thread. & I don't give a rats a$$ what you think of me as you know f^Ck all about me or what I know. You don't know everything yourself & if you think you do, you're sadly mistaken.




> I will not comment on steriods as I do not know enough about them to do so. But I do know you can get shredded with the proper diet without the use of steriods. Cardio and Diet does wonders. Once you hit the point that the diet isn't working, it requires a little tweaking to get in motion again.



Like I said most ppl I've seen wherever I had been & whatever gym I've been to, anyone who was shredded was on the type of compounds I mentioned previously & other hormones. Whether they were 170lbs or 270lbs ripped, they were on juice to get that way. I believe you can get into really good condition whatever size you are & whatever weight you are, but to get really shredded requires extra help.




> So your saying that an Ectomorph couldn't get shredded without the use of hormones? How sad. You do need to go back to that guy with the so called 30 yrs of experience.



I never said an ectomorph couldn't get shredded without hormones & steroids.
Personally I think you're the one who is really sad & I think you should take some advice from the guy with true 30yrs experience. I've seen ectomorphs get really lean & hard w/o steroids, but I've seen ppl that are ectomorphs needing steroids to get shredded. It's common knowledge that you can only grow so much or get so shredded naturally therefore needing steroids to break the plateau despite whatever body type you are. I don't know everything about steroids, but I've learned a lot from my buddies who've taken them as they always offered it to me but I declined, & I've done my research on them & learned an awful lot.




> if you don't like my attitude...then don't responde.



& you need to learn how to spell. It's spelled "respond".


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## JLB001 (May 31, 2004)

I don't need to take advice from your guy who has 30 so called years of experience.  I've been doing this long enough to know how my body responds to my diet and training program.  I can take myself from being 20% bodyfat down to less than 8% NATURALLY in 16 weeks, too bad you can't say that yourself.  At least I see results for what I do instead of screaming about some guys 30 yrs of experience, which evidently hasn't done much for you.  Why not show us YOUR results.


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## chronic (May 31, 2004)

dats a good burn if i eva heard one 
now i'm really interested to hear his comeback! hope its a good 1, i need a good laugh


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## DrChiro (Jun 1, 2004)

Posted By Johnnny:

"I believe you can get into really good condition whatever size you are & whatever weight you are, but to get really shredded requires extra help"


"I never said an ectomorph couldn't get shredded without hormones & steroids"


My response:


hmm...so you are contradicting yourself here....or at least you should realize from your own words that everyone is different and that you cant make blanket statements about what will or will not work for a certain person nor can you say what type of condition a person can get into without steroids.

It is so varied that no one routine or diet will work for everybody....once again why it is called PERSONAL training.

the list of possible ways to train is exhausting but just for example:

Mike Mentzer grew great off of a HIT type program
Arnold responded better to higher reps and sets
Skip LaCour does well o HIT programs
Jon Lawson does better on high reps and sets

skip can get eat 4000 calories a day and stay ripped....jon lawson needs to drop to around 2000 calories to get ripped but they are relatively close in weight and body type.....hmm.....individuality?


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## Saturday Fever (Jun 1, 2004)

I wish I was mod. I'd have killed this thread days ago.


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## JLB001 (Jun 1, 2004)

I would close it Saturday but I'm not a mod. in this section.  Enough is enough.


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## ZECH (Jun 1, 2004)

Enough is enough..................


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