# Too much protein?



## ecwholic (Oct 3, 2007)

I was playing around with diet stats on fitday and noticed that my diet with a homemade weight gainer would consist of 347 grams of protein, at 160 lbs, if I were to consume this much protein, would it be a problem?


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## vortrit (Oct 3, 2007)

That much protein seem rather pointless...


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## Mista (Oct 3, 2007)

ecwholic said:


> I was playing around with diet stats on fitday and noticed that my diet with a homemade weight gainer would consist of 347 grams of protein, at 160 lbs, if I were to consume this much protein, would it be a problem?



Post the diet.


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## Tier (Oct 4, 2007)

As long as your ok with a good portion of that turning in to fat


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## Jodi (Oct 7, 2007)

That's a bit excessive doncha think?  You don't really need anymore than 50G of protein at one sitting.


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## TrojanMan60563 (Oct 7, 2007)

If that is per day...its still a little high, but if that is per meal then a total waste.


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## vortrit (Oct 7, 2007)

TrojanMan60563 said:


> If that is per day...its still a little high, but if that is per meal then a total waste.



That has to be per day I would think. That much protein per meal would just be crazy...


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## TrojanMan60563 (Oct 8, 2007)

I guess we don't really have all the info to help....you don't mention how much fat or carbs you are consuming daily. For a person your size you probably do not use all that protein in a day. If you are not burning it off then you will store it..


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## ecwholic (Nov 4, 2007)

here was the stats on fitday: 

Total:   3417    
Fat: 77  693  21% 
  Sat: 14  127  4% 
  Poly: 15  131  4% 
  Mono: 30  266  8% 
Carbs: 394  1376  42% 
  Fiber: 50  0  0% 
Protein: 298  1191  37% 
Alcohol: 0  0  0% 


I'm trying to bulk up, I cut the protein down some, would I be okay going with that much protein?


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## tucker01 (Nov 4, 2007)

What was your caloric in take and diet like prior to this?


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## ecwholic (Nov 4, 2007)

Unfortunately I'm on my pda typing this, but to briefly sum it up at this moment, I was eating maintainance, around 2700 calories with about 70g of fat, 300 g of carbs, and 230g of protein, it was a health diet with lots of veggies, right kind of fat, complex carbs, etc.


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## tucker01 (Nov 5, 2007)

Bump up your cals by 10% and monitor for a couple of weeks.  I wouldn't suggest randomly choosing a cal intake.  Do it methodically and learn.


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## ecwholic (Nov 8, 2007)

Well, I've managed to put together a diet of 269g of protein over a span of a day, that in a safer range?


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## Big G (Nov 10, 2007)

I'm 6'2", 184lb and regularly take in 350-400g of protein daily as part of a 3,500-4,000cal diet. The national kidney foundation has done studies on individuals up to 3g of protein per 1lb of weight and found no problems for those with healthy kidney function. It's important that you take in plenty of water while consuming this much protein. 

It's not _pointless _and it won't _turn to fat_ as suggested above. If you're training hard you will be doing a significant amount of damage to your muscles and your body will readily utilize any available protein to repair and maintenance. I'm 23lb up from March'07 and my abs look damned similar to the way they did back then, so I'm not gaining much in the way of bodyfat.

Iain has good advice... adjust your calories and see what happens. Don't make any alarming changes (e.g. 2000-3000cal overnight), do it gradually.

My guess is you'd be surprised how many calories you can use. Increase your calories over the next 2weeks to 3,500 and stick to that for a month. The scale will probably take an alarming jump as you carb up, but I bet you'll just gain weight steadily after that with minimal, if any, body fat accumulation. 

Remember... you need to eat _more than enough _for optimal hypertrophy so some bodyfat accumulation is to be expected. If you're not getting fatter week fter week on 2,500cal you're proably not maintaining; you're starving yourself.

Up your calories and see how it goes. My guess is that you could pack away 4,000cal+ if you're active. You're young and, if you eat regularly (at the very most every 3hours) you'll burn though them.

Be smart though. Don't eat 3pc bread before bed every night and expect to stay lean. Reduce your carbs nearer to bed time. Nothing starchy after 4-5pm. No bread, rice, pasta, sweetpot, yams, corn etc. You don't need a boat-load of carbs while you're sleeping. Carb up in the morning with whole grain bread, milk, fruit etc so you've got energy for the day ahead (incl. the gym!). If you're hungry in the evenings eat a truckload of green veg. The Thermic Effect of Food will burn off most of the calories just trying to extract the calories from the veg.

Additionally, if the body is starved of carbs and has more than enough protein it can convert the protein to sugar via gluconeogenesis. This process itself requires the burning of calories so, again, you're burning a lot of calories trying to extract calories from your food (hence you can eat more).

Anyway... If you're not gaining some fat, you're not eating enough. And, as you get bigger, your bigger muscles are going to require more food. At 184lb I'm honestly wondering if I could eat 4,500cal daily. I'm certainly not getting fat on almost 4,000so I'll probably up it a bit, wait a month, and look in the mirror. The mirror is the best judge of all, if you ask me! Screw calipers and scales. Just look in the mirror.  Are you losing definition? How quickly is it happening? If it's happening fast drop your calories a little. If it's not happening, eat more! If it's already happened to the point that you don;t like what you see any more, crop your calories way back for a while, run-run-run and cut some of that body fat off. Any strength losses will come back fairly quickly, I promise you. Muscles have memory.


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## Elson (Nov 13, 2007)

too much protein = expensive pee


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## Big G (Nov 13, 2007)

too little protein = sub-optimal growth.

I can afford to pee a dollar or two here or there!


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## BigDyl (Nov 14, 2007)

Too much protein = gluconeogenesis.

Although is your on a cycle of AAS, your protein synthesis is 50x higher, so I'm sure you can go much higher then.  

In any case the jury is still out on the best macronutrient ratio for BB'ing.  Some suggest 33/33/33.  Others say 40/40/20.  It's probably more individual specific.


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## ecwholic (Nov 14, 2007)

BigDyl said:


> Too much protein = gluconeogenesis.
> 
> Although is your on a cycle of AAS, your protein synthesis is 50x higher, so I'm sure you can go much higher then.
> 
> In any case the jury is still out on the best macronutrient ratio for BB'ing.  Some suggest 33/33/33.  Others say 40/40/20.  It's probably more individual specific.



I've finalized a diet with 250g of protein, much less. Since I haven't taken Bio in years, gluconeogenesis, all I know is that its the conversion of non-sugar into glucose. Is too much of this gonna be bad??


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## tucker01 (Nov 14, 2007)

BigDyl said:


> Too much protein = gluconeogenesis.



Doesn't gluconeogenesis only occur in a glycogen depleted state?  ie ketosis.

Why would the body waste the time to convert excess protein to Glucose if its glycogen stores are full?


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## Big G (Nov 14, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> Doesn't gluconeogenesis only occur in a glycogen depleted state?  ie ketosis.
> 
> Why would the body waste the time to convert excess protein to Glucose if its glycogen stores are full?



 Yeah, that was my understanding too, but I'm also surprised that the body wouldn't utilize such a significant source of energy. 

I often consume 2g of protein per pound of me. If I only actually need 1g per pound then I pee almost 800calories of protein out daily (excl. any not digested). I can't see that being true. So, maybe, gluconeogenesis occurs as a stepping stone to fat storage afterall.

Anyone know of any good reading on this subject?


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## tucker01 (Nov 14, 2007)

Proteins are broken down to amino acids which are used in the body.

Excess would be converted to sugar or fat.

I personally don't see a need for 2g of Protein per lb.  That is ridiculously expensive.


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## BigDyl (Nov 14, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> Doesn't gluconeogenesis only occur in a glycogen depleted state?  ie ketosis.
> 
> Why would the body waste the time to convert excess protein to Glucose if its glycogen stores are full?



If you consume excess calories, your body will use them.  Burn them or store them.  If the excess cals are from protein, then it will store them.


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## Jodi (Nov 14, 2007)

If the excess calories are from any macro, it will store them.


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## ecwholic (Nov 14, 2007)

Just wanted to know, I heard to up my calories within 2 weeks or so if I stop seeing gains by at least 10 percent or 500 calories...wasn't sure how this worked out, if someone can help me out with that it would be greatly appreciated.


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## Big G (Nov 15, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> Doesn't gluconeogenesis only occur in a glycogen depleted state?  ie ketosis.  Why would the body waste the time to convert excess protein to Glucose if its glycogen stores are full?



 



IainDaniel said:


> Proteins are broken down to amino acids which are used in the body. Excess would be converted to sugar or fat.


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## Big G (Nov 15, 2007)

ecwholic said:


> Just wanted to know, I heard to up my calories within 2 weeks or so if I stop seeing gains by at least 10 percent or 500 calories...wasn't sure how this worked out, if someone can help me out with that it would be greatly appreciated.



ecw... I already discussed this in great length in reply to your PM. Stop thinking so much and just eat! if you start getting fat eat less. if yuo're not getting fat eat more. This isn't freakin' rocket science here!


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## Big G (Nov 15, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> I personally don't see a need for 2g of Protein per lb.  That is *ridiculously expensive*.



Where the hell are you shopping Iain!?

PROTEIN
Turkey - 33¢/lb
Chicken breast - $1.70/lb
Doz. eggs - $1.39
PP - 66¢ srvng

CARBS
Grn beans - $1.99/lb
Broccoli - $3.49/lb
Cauliflower - $3.99ea.
Bread (Ezekiel): $3.49/24oz

FAT
Almonds - $6.99/lb
Heavy cream - $4.99/qt

i.e. Pound-for pound protein is very cheap food, plus the body uses a lot of calories converting excess protein to sugar/fat (similar to thermic effect). Reducing my priotein intake from 2g/lb to 1g/lb would reduce me from 6oz chicken per meal (for example) to 3oz . That'd suck.

The National Kidney Association has conducted numerous tests with significantly large samples to prove that up to 3g protein per 1lb LBM has no negative effect on healthy kidneys, assuming suitable levels of water intake.

I don't see any reason to limit protein.


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## tucker01 (Nov 15, 2007)

Comparing lbs to dollars for different macros is like comparing apples and oranges.

Tell me how many cals are in a 1lb of almonds and how many are in a 1 of turkey breast.  Get my point?


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## Big G (Nov 15, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> Comparing lbs to dollars for different macros is like comparing apples and oranges.
> 
> Tell me how many cals are in a 1lb of almonds and how many are in a 1 of turkey breast.  *Get my point?*



 No... I don't.

1. Protein is still inexpensive compared to a LOT of carbs!

2. The National Kidney Association still sees no problem with up to 3g/lb LBM.

3. 3oz of chicken (for examaple) instead of 6oz with each meal still sucks.

4. Your body still uses more calories to convert protein to fat than it does to convert carbs to fat.

i.e. I still see no reason to reduce intake.


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## Uthinkso (Nov 15, 2007)

Tier said:


> As long as your ok with a good portion of that turning in to fat



Does it really turn into fat though? I know the body can only metabolize a certain amount of protein at a time, usually 35-55g depending on the person. 

In a healthy subject wouldn't the body just get rid of the excess protein as waste product?


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## tucker01 (Nov 15, 2007)

Big G said:


> No... I don't.
> 
> *So lets take Peanut butter for instance. what $2 for 1lb, Which is 2600 cals, with a more balance portion of macros
> Your Chicken is 461 cals per pound.  See the cost difference,  let alone the effort it takes to eat the same amount of cals.
> ...


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## Big G (Nov 15, 2007)

Uthinkso said:


> Does it really turn into fat though?



I guess there are some clues in here but it's all gobbledegook to me.

This site (dietitian.com) is much easier to understand (no chemistry degree required!) and it says "Excess protein, above body needs, is used for fuel or converted to body fat" and "protein will only show up in your urine.. if you have a kidney infection"


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## P-funk (Nov 15, 2007)

this thread gets better by the minute.

there are other issues with that high of protein intake besides just your kidneys.

3g/lb is absurd.


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## tucker01 (Nov 15, 2007)

P-funk said:


> this thread gets better by the minute.
> 
> there are other issues with that high of protein intake besides just your kidneys.
> 
> 3g/lb is absurd.



Shut up.


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## Big G (Nov 15, 2007)

P-funk said:


> 3g/lb is absurd.



Hey! It was the national kidney foundation's tests, not mine. .



P-funk said:


> there are other issues with that high of protein intake besides just your kidneys.



Care to elaborate/educate?

Pretty please.


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## TrojanMan60563 (Nov 15, 2007)

3g/lb is crazy....I couldn't eat 630g protein per day (going off LBM)....that would mean eating HUGE meals or hourly meals....that would be crazy. I can't see doing that without gaining fat.


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## Big G (Nov 15, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> Originally Posted by Big G
> No... I don't.
> 
> *So lets take Peanut butter for instance. what $2 for 1lb, Which is 2600 cals, with a more balance portion of macros
> ...


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## KelJu (Nov 15, 2007)

Way too high! Eat less protein, and more fruit, slow burning carbs, and veggies.


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## Big G (Nov 15, 2007)

TrojanMan60563 said:


> 3g/lb is crazy....I couldn't eat 630g protein per day (going off LBM)....that would mean eating HUGE meals or hourly meals....that would be crazy. I can't see doing that without gaining fat.



Agreed.

3g/lb was a test the National Kidney Foundation did to asses whether an _extremely high protein intake _would adversely affect the kidneys in healthy individual. They concluded that it did not.

However, having clarified that point (once again), I'm quite certain that they're not recommending we all start doing that! That _would _be crazy, you're right!


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## Big G (Nov 15, 2007)

KelJu said:


> Way too high! Eat less protein, and more fruit, slow burning carbs, and veggies.



40g complete proteins per meal waaay to high... really? Honestly? Sure?

_More _fruit!!?  Have you even seen my food log!?


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## tucker01 (Nov 15, 2007)

> Originally Posted by *IainDaniel*
> 
> 
> _Originally Posted by Big G
> ...


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## tucker01 (Nov 15, 2007)

I looked at you fitday,  and your carb are decent, but you eat too much fruit. 

For one to criticize about 4 cups of milk and the sugar intake, check the amount of sugar from all the fruit in your diet.


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## Big G (Nov 15, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> I looked at you fitday,  and your carb are decent, but you eat too much fruit.
> 
> For one to criticize about 4 cups of milk and the sugar intake, check the amount of sugar from all the fruit in your diet.



OMG, I know, I know! That's what _I_ said!

I posted a thread on here not very long ago asking about low glycemic fruits because I was getting bored of using only dried peaches & cherries in my muesli (i.e. oats,nuts,dried fruit & milk, eaten like cereal).

You replied by saying "Why?" and when I explained that I was concerned about the sugar content Jodi replied with "_For bulking, eat any fruit you want_."

That's when I started eating at least one piece of fruit with every meal. I like fruit. I haven't had much over the past year because I was concerned about the sugar content.

Truth be told though, I haven't noticed any significant adverse effects on my physique. I didn't start getting fat or anything. I just recently upped my calories again becuase I seem to be absorbing everything I put in myself.


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## KelJu (Nov 15, 2007)

Big G said:


> 40g complete proteins per meal waaay to high... really? Honestly? Sure?
> 
> _More _fruit!!?  Have you even seen my food log!?



I was replying to the OP.


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## tucker01 (Nov 15, 2007)

Big G said:


> OMG, I know, I know! That's what _I_ said!
> 
> I posted a thread on here not very long ago asking about low glycemic fruits because I was getting bored of using only dried peaches & cherries in my muesli (i.e. oats,nuts,dried fruit & milk, eaten like cereal).
> 
> ...



LOL.

If you are fine with your progress then keep at it.


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## ecwholic (Nov 15, 2007)

Big G said:


> ecw... I already discussed this in great length in reply to your PM. Stop thinking so much and just eat! if you start getting fat eat less. if yuo're not getting fat eat more. This isn't freakin' rocket science here!




Whoops, just saw the PM before the post. I've liked the gains I've seen in the 2 weeks doing the bulk in the gym and with my body so far. I'd say so far its been 2-3 lbs or so in the 2 week period.


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## Big G (Nov 15, 2007)

IainDaniel said:


> At 4000+ cals a day of clean eating, yes I do think eating is a chore
> 
> Hmm... wierd. I get hungry. I eat. I never thought of it as an effort. 4,000+cal slides down just fine for me.
> 
> ...


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## Big G (Nov 15, 2007)

ecwholic said:


> Whoops, just saw the PM before the post. I've liked the gains I've seen in the 2 weeks doing the bulk in the gym and with my body so far. I'd say so far its been 2-3 lbs or so in the 2 week period.



That's fine. And I'm glad your weight has gone the direction you wanted it to. Just remember, if you start to look doughy looking you might want to drop your calories a little. 

It's not an exact science and it's certainly not the same for everyone. You'll learn your body in time. Be patient. If you have questions you're in the right place for answers. Just don't criticize Iain's post workout shakes or he'll call you arrogant for a year! (_I'm kidding Iain, I'm kidding!!_)


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## P-funk (Nov 15, 2007)

Big G said:


> Hey! It was the national kidney foundation's tests, not mine. .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



high protein diets are very acidic.  in order to make the blood more basic, the body can start to use calcium stored in bones, disrupting mineral homeostasis.

if you are eating that much protein, you are missing out on various other nutrients that your body may need.  your diet needs to be balanced and have variety.

carbohydrates are protein sparing.  if you eat more of them, you need less protein because the protein you intake will be used more efficiently.  as well, carbohydrates are our primary source of energy.

I don't buy into tests or research funded by organizations.  A lot of times, their results are biased by the people who are slipping them money.  Anyone can fudge the statistics and show what they want.  Especially if the price is right.


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## Big G (Nov 16, 2007)

Thx P.

So, per post above, are you suggesting 25f:45c:30p, 30f,50c,20p, 25f,50c,25p...?

Bare in mind those pesky brussel sprouts (again, just for example) have a fair amount of protein in them too (albeit incomplete, fitday still includes those #s in its percentages) .

40g complete protein per meal sound OK (i.e. 240g/day or 1.33g/lb)? If so, that's where I'm at anyways. The rest is incomplete protein from veg and what-not.

As always, grateful for feedback,
G.


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