# is high protein need for bbs a myth?



## mikevru (Nov 11, 2003)

A top Medical doctor/scientist/nutrition expert at one of the Canadian universities here just did a study which showed elite athletes (bbs as well) need little more protein than does an average person who exercises little. He says studies show the body can only absorb so much protein with the rest being wasted.
Could it be that all these people (especially the bbing supplement industry) are wrong or lying when they say bbers/very active people need large amts of protein in our diets? I guess most go by the rule of 1-1.5 gs of protein per pd of bodyweight but could this be a crock?Could it be that half this or less even is required to be sufficient for muscle gains? anyone tried eating half the protein they take now to see what differences they see in muscle gain? would like ot get osme anectodal evidence here form you guys.

what scientific evidence can one provide to show that large   amts of protein are needed by bbers or elite athletes for muscle gain?

I would provide study link to the doctor's study but it was on the news so sorry.


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## ZECH (Nov 11, 2003)

Basically he is full of crap!


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## Arnold (Nov 11, 2003)

Yeah, okay. 

I will make one comment, it took 20+ years before the medical community agreed that steroids were anabolic.


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## mikevru (Nov 11, 2003)

can i get some scientific links showing that he is full of crap?

it is one thing to lift weights (doesn't take much brains there most will agree) it is another to show scientifically wether something is fact or not.Anyone can say somethign is crap and that is very easy to do, especially when one has no scientific evidence to back up their claim.


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## Mudge (Nov 11, 2003)

How does a person with 100 pounds of extra muscle need barely more than 50g protein a day?

Bullshit.

Want some more scientific bullshit?

The earth is flat.
Steroids dont work.
An under 4 minute mile is impossible.
DC current is better than AC for homes.


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## Mudge (Nov 11, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by mikevru *_
> Anyone can say somethign is crap and that is very easy to do, especially when one has no scientific evidence to back up their claim.



Show us someone who has 21" arms with 50g of protein a day, then we will have some evidence.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 11, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by mikevru *_
> A top Medical doctor/scientist/nutrition expert at one of the Canadian universities here just did a study which showed elite athletes (bbs as well) need little more protein than does an average person who exercises little.



Such studies exist.  The question is what is the "need" for?  In these cases, the need is for survival, not for improved performance or increased muscle mass.

I suggest you get ahold of these studies (manipulated by the doc and/or the news) and read them for yourself.


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## Arnold (Nov 11, 2003)

I think we have two issues here (unless I am misreading) 

Is the question:

1.) Is more protein necessary for hypertrophy?

or

2.) Is more protein necessary to maintain additional muscle mass?

Or, are we seeing both of these as the same question?


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## mrguy (Nov 11, 2003)

mikevru,

How about this!

Continue working your but off in the Gym and only consume 50 grams of protien a day.

Do this for 3 months.

Then, come back here and tell us how much mass you have gained and how big your muscles look and feel.

That will be your scientific proof positive of the power of protein.

Just because somebody prints it, does not mean its true. The proof comes from how YOUR body reacts and not how some scientists says it will.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 11, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by mrguy *_
> mikevru,
> 
> How about this!
> ...



You make some decent points, despite your inability to grasp, or at least explain, logic and science.


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## Twin Peak (Nov 11, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I think we have two issues here (unless I am misreading)
> 
> Is the question:
> ...



I think they take the former, and extrapolate (incorrectly) into the latter.


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## ZECH (Nov 11, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by mikevru *_
> can i get some scientific links showing that he is full of crap?
> 
> it is one thing to lift weights (doesn't take much brains there most will agree) it is another to show scientifically wether something is fact or not.Anyone can say somethign is crap and that is very easy to do, especially when one has no scientific evidence to back up their claim.


Well since you are the one questioning it, I'm not going to do the work for you. You can search as good as anyone!


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## Arnold (Nov 11, 2003)

As far as I am concerned it's just another example (there are many) of "science" or the "medical community" being behind what bodybuilders are figuring out in the gym from trial and error, it's been going on for decades why would it stop now?


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## mikevru (Nov 11, 2003)

I am searching for scientific links and will post if find any.
as for bbers have found out by trial and error-that means diddly. In a non-scientific, uncontrolled environment one can find "evidence" to support any claim.

Do not get me wrong I am not saying that one does not need 1-1.5 gs  protein for pd of bodyweight if one ones to maintain (or gain more mass) all I was saying was that I would l iike to see scientific evidence that supports this notion


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## Arnold (Nov 11, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by mikevru *_
> as for bbers have found out by trial and error-that means diddly. In a non-scientific, uncontrolled environment one can find "evidence" to support any claim.



Oh I beg to differ my friend...did you know that the medical community regarded weight training as dangerous and unhealthy for many years, all the while our die hard bb's of yester-year pounded their hearts out until FINALLY the rest of the fucking world has caught on and realized it's one of the healthiest things one CAN do in regards to physical fitness.

Don't get me wrong, I like scientific evidence, proof, etc., but do not mistakenly believe that it's not worthwhile until science dignifies it.


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## Mudge (Nov 11, 2003)

Empirical evidence does not matter? Why keep doing something if it does not work, that makes no sense.


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## mikevru (Nov 11, 2003)

agree with you on point about often times people getting the right idea before medicine comes on board to verify/dignify an activity/product etc.

when you say bodybuilding is healthy i take it to mean truly natural bbing which includes cardio work (yes building muscle has benefits for eventual old age as makes bones more dense, etc) but if one is talking about pro bbing then that has to be the unhealthierst thing out there


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## Tha Don (Nov 11, 2003)

i lost 8lbs of muscle in 2 months on my recent cut... i was shocked! i'd done it all right! didn't have a clue what i was doing wrong... then i calculated my protein intake



i was getting barely 100g of protein a day, and my cals were down at 1500

now i'm on 240g of protein (twice my body weight in lbs) and 4000 cals

bottom line is don't under-estimate how much protein your body needs to maintain and build muscle.... i did and it cost me months of gains!

anyone in the sports industry with half a brain will tell you you need LOTS of protein to get muscular! its like RULE no1. to getting in shape for any sport

peace


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## mikevru (Nov 11, 2003)

http://www.mikementzer.com/proteinparadox.html

interesting


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## ZECH (Nov 11, 2003)

Positive nitrogen retention is important in gaining muscle!


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## Mudge (Nov 11, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by mikevru *_
> if one is talking about pro bbing then that has to be the unhealthierst thing out there



I am not about to call them healthy specimins, but they do get blood work frequently.


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## plouffe (Nov 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Show us someone who has 21" arms with 50g of protein a day, then we will have some evidence.




 that was beautiful....


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## BUSTINOUT (Nov 13, 2003)

Damn, I hate people who need to have scientific proof about everything.   Do you need scientific proof that an orgasm feels awesome before you bang your girlfriend too?


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## Arnold (Nov 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by mikevru *_
> when you say bodybuilding is healthy i take it to mean truly natural bbing which includes cardio work (yes building muscle has benefits for eventual old age as makes bones more dense, etc) but if one is talking about pro bbing then that has to be the unhealthierst thing out there



Had you read what I wrote you would know that I never used the term "bodybuilding" I said weight training.

As far as bodybuilding being unhealthy, it can be, it depends on what extent you take it to.


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## DarthHobbit (Nov 19, 2003)

*The answer lies in the text.....*

The "study" came from a Canadian university.  Nuff said.


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## JerseyDevil (Nov 19, 2003)

You had better hope J'Bo doesn't see this 

You'll be Hobbit meat


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## Mex (Nov 19, 2003)

> The "study" came from a Canadian university. Nuff said.



That's the dumbest phrase I've read today. It's almost as dumb as the "I don't need me no science!" response a few posts earlier. 

I think more than knowing that protein intake is essential for bodybuilders, researchers should question -

 how much protein damages your kidneys, and what's the optimum ratio of protein intake that will allow you to grow muscles, and not screw up your body? 

Health is all important to me. If extra protein is shown to build more muscle, but it wrecks my liver/kidneys/whatever, I'll be happy to cut back and be skinny


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## Arnold (Nov 19, 2003)

Increased protein is definitely harder on your kidneys, but I do not think it's going to "wreck" them.

If you're concerned about this I suggest you stop lifting heavy weights as well cause it puts extra stress on your joints.


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## Mex (Nov 21, 2003)

> If you're concerned about this I suggest you stop lifting heavy weights as well cause it puts extra stress on your joints.



Haha. Okay. 

But at least your joints give you a warning. Kidneys, all of a sudden, you've got to give birth to a stone... :S


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## xor (Dec 8, 2003)

*Hmmm, too much or too little?*

I was searching for information on protein requirements and this forum was picked up by Google.  I read some of the responses and I felt the need to post my own opinion.  I'm telling you guys this so that you know I'm new.  Anyway, here I go...

I'm going to stick to Mike's original intent in his question (in my own words): Is a high amount of protein needed for bodybuilders?  Can scientific studies be shown to back it up?

Well, unfortunately I can't back up what I'm saying with studies at the moment because I'm having a hard time finding official and crediable ones that are avaiable online (most of the ones I know of are in medical journals sitting on my desk).  That's originally what I was looking for, an E-Format study on this subject.

However, I can give you my opinion and thoughts on sufficient protein intake.

To put it simply, you can probably get away with eating a low amount of protein, but your gains will be a lot slower.  You also tread a fine line between "too little" and a "low" amount of protein.  It's just easier and more effective to eat a large amount of protein to provide enough free ammino chains for your muscles to regenerate.  Too little protein IN MY OPINION is anything less then .8g/lb. of body weight.  I personally try to get 1.5g/lb.  HOWEVER, THAT IS ONLY ME.  (Sorry for the caps, but I have to stress that it's what *I* do, don't take it as my advice for everyone).  The danger with eating too little protein in terms of bodybuilding is simply that your muscles can atrophy.  What happens when you train for hypertrophy is that the myfibers strands in your muscles are torn and strained, this most people know.  Following that, your immune system sends in bodies that eat away and break down the torn fibers.  After they are done, a local hormone stimulates the muscle building bodies to come in and synthesize free ammino chains to build the fibers back up, and they are built back up stronger and bigger then their previous state.  However, if there aren't adequate free ammo chains available, then your muscles can't easily be rebuilt.  If this is done to the extreme, then the result will lead to muscular atrophy.  Hence, you need to take in at least a minimum amount of protein to prevent this.  As I said, I personally believe .8g/lb. of body weight is a minimum.

On the other end of the scale is a large amount of protein.  A large amount of protein in my view is anything above 1.1g/lb. of body weight.  In this case, your muscles have more then enough protein to use in the process of rebuilding myofibers.  It's also my belief that chances are, your body prefers to burn off the excess protein rather then store it as fat (although I don't have a lot of scientific explaintion to back this up at the moment, what I know about the way your body keeps up glucose levels leads me to believe so).  One of the biggest concerns is how much stress your kidneys can take in the catabolism process of protein for energy.  Your kidneys are responsible for filtering out any harmful toxins that result from this process.  So the question becomes: How much protein can your kidneys and your liver take?  Well, my current belief is that if you don't have any kind of pre-existing kidney or liver conditions, and you maintain a healthy carb/fat balance, then you should be ok.  If you have conditions that effect your liver or kidneys, then it's a different story (or if you have genetics that predispose you to develop problems with those organs).  As any level of intelligence will tell you, consult your physician on this matter.  He/She will know a lot more then most of us.

So to summarize:  Too little protein can lead to muscular atrophy.  Too much protein can strain your kidneys and liver.  The primary goal should be to provide your muscles with enough protein to rebuild, and to maintain the whole diet and keep it balanced, which means watch carbs and fat.  This is my own opinion based on the facts that I've read, my own experience, and the experience of others.  I could be wrong, but I am willing to back what I just said as a result of myself.  I'm no doctor, so don't take what I said that way, please.

On a side note, I'd like to say that I find most people in the bodybuilding/weight lifting area to be revolting.  I'm not stereotyping EVERYONE, but I am summarizing a the group of people I've met.  A large majority of them turn out to be morons that can't respect anyone else's viewpoints at all.  I don't know if it's the constant need to feed their own egos, or if it's the testesterone running through their veins, but bodybuilding seems to attract a lot of idiots and morons.  For some reason, everyone thinks they know everything.  Some of the responses I read in this thread almost made me puke with digust.

I'll also add my own stats, so people don't get into a "Yeah? Well this guy is probably a fatass sitting around doing nothing."

My Stats:
Age - 21
Height - 5'10"
Weight - 160 lbs.
Body Fat % - 7%

Daily Diet:
Proteins - 225g to 275g
Carbohydrates - 450g to 500g
Fats - 60g to 75g

On my closing note, my goals: 180 lbs. @ 6%-7% body fat


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## PIMPZNHUSTLAZ (Dec 8, 2003)

Actually, most BBs/weightlifters I know are some of the most polite and well-educated people I know.  While you say you aren't you aren't stereotyping, you really ARE.  There are idiots in every type of social circles.

And why would anyone care or assume whether you are a fatass or not?  That is irrelevant to your post.  Anyone(fatass or not) can read an article and regurgitate or put something into their own words based on what they read and how they analyze and perceive the information.

BTW...what does the 5'10, 160 prove?  That you are skinny?


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## Arnold (Dec 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by PIMPZNHUSTLAZ *_
> Actually, most BBs/weightlifters I know are some of the most polite and well-educated people I know.



I agree.


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## Dale Mabry (Dec 8, 2003)

I believe that people who lift weights need more protein than sedentary individuals.  I do not necessarily believe that number to be an equivalent number of grams per lb of bodyweight.  I do, however, get an equivalent amount of protein grams as compared to lbs of bodyweight.  I think this number is picked becauwse it is alot easier to remember and I believe there to be a study that I am not finding that backs up the assertion that this is considered a "safe" amount of protein in terms of kidney function.  I am sure they could perform an experiment to find this number out, but who would fund such a thing and what would be the practicality of it since most people are fat asses anyway?


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## Big Baby (Dec 8, 2003)

if you could show me the study i would show you how it is flawed.


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## xor (Dec 8, 2003)

No, I'm not directly stereotyping people.  I'm summarizing a trait that I've found in a group of people *I'VE* met.  If I were to stereotype, I would simply just say that bodybuilding is full of people that are feeding their egos 24/7 and don't have much respect for other peoples knowledge.  However, I don't believe that.  I still approach people with an open-mind and a polite manner.  I do know several bodybuilders at my gym that are very civil and cordial.  I'm not saying that I'm not going to meet anymore likeable lifters.  I'm just saying that an unpleaseantly large number of people that I've met have been morons.

As for my stats.  Of course they are irrelevent, I agree with you.  There isn't any argument there.  However, I listed them in hopes to try and get real posts out of people, instead of people trying to attack me personally.  I just want productive information, that's all I'm asking for.  I just didn't want posts like, "Oh, he's probably a fatass!" blah blah blah.

...and yes, I'm a skinny.  I'm ecto, and it's hard for me to gain weight.


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