# Protein + Creatine + L-Glutamine



## Alaric (Dec 20, 2003)

Hi, I've got a couple questions...

For my post workout shake, is it ok to throw in the glutamine and plain creatine with my protein shake (also has 4 stawberries in it).
I understand that you should use grape juice in the morning before breakfast to get the creatine in your system, what about glutamine can I just drink it with water?  Also, if I'm trying to just get plain creatine into my system without all the sugar, is it possible to just down it with water instead of the grape juice?

I'm currently bulking, and from what I've read so far this is how I'll be using my glutamine and creatine:

On days:
Glutamine: 30 mins before workout, after workout, before bed
Creatine: morning before breakfast, after workout

Off days:
Glutamine: before breakfast, before bed
Creatine: morning OR before bed

Will this be enough for my bulk?

Thanks in advance!


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## Randy (Dec 20, 2003)

Alaric,

1. Protein
You should consume enough protein to equal your body weight daily.  It is recommended to create a 5-6 meal daily schedule every 2-3 hours apart that includes roughly 45-50 grams of protein maximum until you satify your maximum intake.

2.  Creatine
As for the monohydrate powder form generally you want to consume 10 grams daily on a 3 week on and 1 week off program.
Take 5 grams 30 minutes before workout, and 5 grams after workout.

3.  L-Glutamine
Take minimum 5 grams daily.   The best time to take it is after your workout.  Some of the guys here say to take up to 15 grams.
They split it up 5 grams before workout, 5 grams after workout and 5 before bed.

All 3 of these can be taken together or seperate with water if you wish, or any other favorite drink.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 22, 2003)

If you are bulking, you are wasting your money on glutamine.  As for the creatine, chuck the grape juice and throw some dextrose in your post workout shake, it will have several benefits, namely:

* it will shuttle the creatine into the muscle cells
* it will replenish lost muscle glycogen stores
* it will cause an insulin spike, shutting down cortisol production


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## Randy (Dec 22, 2003)

Why are you wasting your money with Glutamine if you are bulking?  All the big bulkers here including Prince and Tank take L-Glutamine abundantly.

Also as far as insulin spike, why would you need that on post workout.  I would think you benefit from an insulin spike on a pre-workout shake.   

As for dextrose, many of the creatine suppliers provide that in the creatine.   I don't think the brand I take contains it though...but sure works for me.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Why are you wasting your money with Glutamine if you are bulking?  All the big bulkers here including Prince and Tank take L-Glutamine abundantly.



Really?  Wow.  That's a terrific reason to use it.

Now, care to tell me what its intended use would be for bulking, and just how it goes about doing whatever you believe its intended use to be.




> _*Originally posted by Randy *_Also as far as insulin spike, why would you need that on post workout.



Because the workout causes you to secret cortisol, causing you to enter a catabolic state.  Insulin combats that, as insulin is an anabolic hormone.

Generally speaking catabolic bad, anabolic good.  




> _*Originally posted by Randy *_I would think you benefit from an insulin spike on a pre-workout shake.



Really?  Care to explain why?   



> _*Originally posted by Randy *_As for dextrose, many of the creatine suppliers provide that in the creatine.   I don't think the brand I take contains it though...but sure works for me.



Point being?


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## Randy (Dec 22, 2003)

Twin,

Your turning this around on me.   I simply asked why bulkers are wasting their money using Glutamine?  

Your the first person I ever heard say that.   Based on my research, as well as the fact that that Tank and Prince are taking it...  To me that is a very good reason to take it.  I respect both of them and trust their knowledge and judgement my friend.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Twin,
> 
> Your turning this around on me.   I simply asked why bulkers are wasting their money using Glutamine?
> ...



Just because person X takes substance Y doesn't mean that Y does shit.

And even if it does, if (1) you are going to be spending your money, and (2) your are going to be putting a substance in your body, you should know what for, and you should have some reasonable amount of certainty that it will do what you hope it will do.

The fact that glutamine in general is a waste of money for most people is not a new concept and I can point you to many studies showing why.  

The fact that glutamine is particularly useless when bulking is even more well established, and recognized in the industry.


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## Randy (Dec 22, 2003)

Thanks Twin....Very useful information


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## Twin Peak (Dec 22, 2003)

Faulty logic and reasoning, drawing you to a false conclusion, is your loss, not mine.

Remember when you thought fish oil worthless?


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## Randy (Dec 22, 2003)

I never said fish oil was worthless Twin...
I just have better things to do with my time than argue with you here ....

You have a great day my friend


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## Twin Peak (Dec 22, 2003)

Correct, you never said worthless.  Here is what you said:

Page 1 of the thread:



> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> But again TP - for those that are slim and healthy working out consistantly, are the benefits of taking fish oil substantial enough to justify taking it?



And again, page 1:



> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> The key word is more like benefit, rather than justify. They could hand out fish pills free of charge, but if the health benefits are very slim and I get fish burps, then why take em.



Then, the last post of the thread, you are handing out fish oil advice.  



> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> 300 sounds low.
> 
> I believe the way Jodi calculates your requirement is she adds both EPA/DHA to form a total. Then this total is generally recorded in Milligrams. Then take that milligram number and convert it to grams by moving the decimal to the left 3 places. Then take that number and divide it by 4. That will be how many pills you need to take. You want to take up to 4 grams a day I believe.
> ...



Interesting.


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

Wouldnt Layne love to see this.  Many top Pros are huge despite their diet and supps, but that doesnt mean because Pro A takes it means you should, and you will get huge. Take nubain for example. Tom Prince use to be quite hooked on it, look at some old pics of him from a year or two ago. You can see the tracks running up his arm. Hes a big guy, so if we apply your logic, I guess we should all be baining up pre WO. It may seem like a far strecth, but it is the same way you linked glutamine and Prince and Tank, whoever they are.


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## Randy (Dec 22, 2003)

prolangtum,

Sorry if you misunderstood my message, I think you've read into it much to deeply.  I've been studying bodybuilding for years.  This does not mean I am an expert, but I certainly do not take products just because Pro A takes it.   I do thank you for your concern though .   While I did say that Pro A and Pro B take it,  I surely have done my homework prior to my consumption.  I am one who believes in the benefits of taking L-Glutamine.  Now both you and Twin Peak are certainly entitled to your opinion.  If you believe it's a waste of money,  again that's up to you.    I could have gone on and on with facts supporting the benefits of L-Glutamine to Twin, but personally I don't feel I need to waste my time doing that.   I feel very comfortable with the products I take for the time being .


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

too each his own, if you believe it works for you, by all means buy it


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## Randy (Dec 22, 2003)

Thanks for your blessing prolangtum.  It really means a lot


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## Arnold (Dec 22, 2003)

hey all of you "scientists" just remember that steroids were not anabolic until the late 1980's even though bodybuilders were using them for 30 years to get bigger and stronger.


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## Randy (Dec 22, 2003)

Thanks for bringing this info to light Prince


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## Twin Peak (Dec 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> hey all of you "scientists" just remember that steroids were not anabolic until the late 1980's even though bodybuilders were using them for 30 years to get bigger and stronger.



Yeah, that's a relevant point to this discussion.

While certain groups did not recognize the anabolic properties of AAS, most certainly MANY scientists did, as far back as one can reasonably guess.

And this isn't about science.  When I advised the thread starter to think twice before spending money on glutamine when bulking, Randy's excellent argument about why it was good was because you and Tank used it.  Now, this is no disrespect to either of you, but that is a shitty argument, and you (Prince) know it.

I'd not want someone to say, use compound X because TP does.  I'd want the person to understand why they are using it, and through what mechanism of action it would (supposedly) provide benefit.

That is all I have mentioned here.

And by the way, who in this thread has claimed to be a scientist?


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## Arnold (Dec 22, 2003)

Randy forgot to mention gopro along with Tank and myself! 

I was just being sarcastic in the sense that it often takes science awhile longer to catch up with what "athletes" have already found to be worthwhile and effective.


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## Randy (Dec 22, 2003)

Oh yeah, can't forget our ole pal Gopro


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> 
> The fact that glutamine is particularly useless when bulking is even more well established, and recognized in the industry.



no offense TP... but you just spent your time in this thread asking people to back up what they say... then you state this... wtf is this supposed to mean?  seriously bro... if you're going to ask other people to back their statements up, don't go throwing around garbage BS like this...


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## Randy (Dec 22, 2003)

LoL,  Now this sounds like a great justification for your BS Twin .
Come on now. Do you really believe that I am taking Glutamine just soley because Prince, Gopro, Tank, and many of the others are ..  I do have a brain Twin.  You think just because I didn't justify it to you,  this is all I based my decision from?  I told you right from the beginning that I had more to do with my time than to justify my reasons to you.   You will always find pros and cons to anything.  It is up to you whether you go with a product or not.   You made it clear that you are against the product and that's fine.  Just don't be a prick to people that support it.  And if it's an argument your after, you better search elsewhere.  I have better things to do with my time bud. 

And go ahead, take the last word...seems like your good at it 



> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Yeah, that's a relevant point to this discussion.
> 
> While certain groups did not recognize the anabolic properties of AAS, most certainly MANY scientists did, as far back as one can reasonably guess.
> ...


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

Ok, so you lose body glutamine when cutting. So how do you explain not more than 10% making it through the gut and your supposed great results?

Oxidation of glutamine by the splanchnic bed in humans.

Haisch M, Fukagawa NK, Matthews DE.

Departments of Medicine and Chemistry, University of Vermont, Burlington, Vermont 05405, USA.

[1,2-(13)C(2)]glutamine and [ring-(2)H(5)]phenylalanine were infused for 7 h into five postabsorptive healthy subjects on two occasions. On one occasion, the tracers were infused intravenously for 3.5 h and then by a nasogastric tube for 3.5 h. The order of infusion was reversed on the other occasion. From the plasma tracer enrichment measurements at plateau during the intravenous and nasogastric infusion periods, we determined that 27 +/- 2% of the enterally delivered phenylalanine and 64 +/- 2% of the glutamine were removed on the first pass by the splanchnic bed. Glutamine flux was 303 +/- 8 micromol. kg(-1). h(-1). Of the enterally delivered [(13)C]glutamine tracer, 73 +/- 2% was recovered as exhaled CO(2) compared with 58 +/- 1% of the intravenously infused tracer. The fraction of the enterally delivered tracer that was oxidized specifically on the first pass by the splanchnic bed was 53 +/- 2%, comprising 83% of the total tracer extracted. From the appearance of (13)C in plasma glucose, we estimated that 7 and 10% of the intravenously and nasogastrically infused glutamine tracers, respectively, were converted to glucose. The results for glutamine flux and first-pass extraction were similar to our previously reported values when a [2-(15)N]glutamine tracer [Matthews DE, Morano MA, and Campbell RG, Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 264: E848-E854, 1993] was used. The results of [(13)C]glutamine tracer disposal demonstrate that the major fate of enteral glutamine extraction is for oxidation and that only a minor portion is used for gluconeogenesis.


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

The purpose was to determine if glutamine supplementation would prevent a loss of lean mass in athletes during a 12-day weight reduction program. It was hypothesized that supplementation would spare lean body mass. Subjects (n=18) exercised and dieted to create a 4186kJ·day-1 energy deficit and a 8372 kJ·day-1 energy deficit on days 1-5, days 6-12, respectively. The glutamine (GLN) group (n=9) ingested 0.35 g·kg-1 body mass of glutamine while a placebo was administered to the remaining subjects. Body mass (BM), lean body mass (LBM) and fat mass (FM), were measured at days 0, 6, and 12. GLN and placebo groups both lost significant amounts of BM, LBM and FM. There were no significant differences between groups. The findings indicate little benefit for retention of lean mass with supplementation of glutamine during a short-term weight reduction program.

Glutamine supplementation did not benefit athletes during short-term
weight reduction
Kevin, J. Finn, Robin Lund and Mona Rosene-Treadwell
http://www20.uludag.edu.tr/~hakan...n4/7/v2n4-7.htm


__________________


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

Eur J Appl Physiol. 2001 Dec;86(2):142-9. Related Articles, Links 

Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults.

Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T.

College of Kinesiology, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada.

The purpose of this study was to assess the effect of oral glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. A group of 31 subjects, aged 18-24 years, were randomly allocated to groups (double blind) to receive either glutamine (0.9 g x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 17) or a placebo (0.9 g maltodextrin x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 14 during 6 weeks of total body resistance training. Exercises were performed for four to five sets of 6-12 repetitions at intensities ranging from 60% to 90% 1 repetition maximum (1 RM). Before and after training, measurements were taken of 1 RM squat and bench press strength, peak knee extension torque (using an isokinetic dynamometer), lean tissue mass (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry) and muscle protein degradation (urinary 3-methylhistidine by high performance liquid chromatography). Repeated measures ANOVA showed that strength, torque, lean tissue mass and 3-methylhistidine increased with training (P < 0.05), with no significant difference between groups. Both groups increased their 1 RM squat by approximately 30% and 1 RM bench press by approximately 14%. The glutamine group showed increases of 6% for knee extension torque, 2% for lean tissue mass and 41% for urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine. The placebo group increased knee extension torque by 5%, lean tissue mass by 1.7% and 3-methylhistidine by 56%. We conclude that glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

This is from HST site, Haycock is no dummy:

There is no real benefit for someone looking to build bigger muscles. That 10% of dietary glutamine that gets past the GI tract is taken up by the liver where it is converted into sugar (gluconeogenesis) and stored as glycogen in the liver.

Don't let in-vitro research fool you into thinking oral glutamine will have an effect on a healthy individuals muscle mass. Yes, glutamine does regulate protein synthesis to a certain extent under some situations. However, you can't make it happen by taking it orally. Don't let ads with some pro-bodybuilder holding a bottle of glutamine fool you. Even if that pro-bodybuilder is taking it...it isn't doing anything for him either.

Here are a couple good "in-vivo" research studies to start with:

1. Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T. Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2001 Dec;86(2):142-9.

2. Antonio J, Sanders MS, Kalman D, Woodgate D, Street C. The effects of high-dose glutamine ingestion on weightlifting performance. J Strength Cond Res. 2002 Feb;16(1):157-60.

Keep in mind that if you are eating protein powders, especially any thing with whey in it, you are getting plenty of glutamine. The question of glutamines worth in the newsletter centered on its effect on building mass and/or strength, not anything to do with the gastrointestinal track.

In short, only 47-50% of orally administered glutamine can be expected to make it past the liver and other organs, into the blood stream. And only about 10% can be expected to reach extracellular spaces.[Bowtell JL, Gelly K, Jackman ML, Patel A, Simeoni M, Rennie MJ. Effect of oral glutamine on whole body carbohydrate storage during recovery from exhaustive exercise. Journal of Applied Physiology. 1999 Jun;86(6):1770-7] Now, this is the main argument against glutamine. 90% of the glutamine you take orally never even makes it to your muscles. This isn't to say it is wasted. Your GI tract loves glutamine from reasons explained earlier. If you are having intestinal problems nothing is better. If you are trying to increase protein synthesis by loading glutamine, it isn't going to work.


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> If you are trying to increase protein synthesis by loading glutamine, it isn't going to work.



From the data given it will increase protein synthesis... it's just a matter of how much it will increase it... correct?

How can he make that statement... because it seems only around 10% is getting to the muscles it's doing nothing?  It seems with the data given by these tests... you're getting a benefit... none of the studies say glutamine taken orally does nothing... it's just the level of benefit in question here.  And, it would seem the benefit of this orally taken glutamine could be greatly affected by the diet of the individual... 

I'm not a scientist like all of these guys who conducted the studies... but even with the data given, there is some subjectivity as to the level of benefit you receive... but it seems there is still a benefit, even if smaller than advertised....

I don't even claim to be an expert on this, just trying to understand what is actually being presented here.


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

A nice little graph


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

holdDaMayo, look at the study above Haycock's comments


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

And this is from Will Brink, who you guys promote on your site

"I think the best we can say about glutamine is it (may) be useful for gut health in some gut related pathologies, it (may) be useful post op, and (may) be useful for preventing/treating OTS in athletes as some data found low glutamine levels correlated to OTS, but true cause and effect data of glutamine to OTS is lacking. Glutamine is just not an anabolic or even anti catabolic supp in healthy athletes."


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 22, 2003)

I read this on another forum... clearly it's not from a scientist... but i think from everything i gathered reading about every study I could find on glutamine, this sums up what I have put together:

"The studies showing that glutamine is useful were almost all done on trauma patients (mostly burn victims if I remember correctly) and thus can't be directly transferred to healthy humans. And the glutamine was usually adminstered by IV thus bypassing the intestinal tract which loves glutamine. Bottom line, most of the glutamine you take won't make it to the bloodstream, let alone your muscles. The thing is, I think that glutamine can have some benefits if you're in an overtraining phase and you're depleting yourself severly (it's a proven tactic for short periods of time) and there's still some good stuff to say about its effects on immunity. But if we're talking muscle growth, it's not all it's cracked up to be. So far, I haven't seen a single study on healthy, weight-training males that says glutamine have any positive effects on muscle growth/strength."

It is interesting reading, you can find alot of scientific studies online showing glutamine doesn't have muscle growth benefits, but it's difficult to find recent studies showing glutamine having positive effects... only thing you find is claims by BB'ers and companies selling the stuff... I wouldn't credit any source's information unless they were unrelated to the sale of supplements... 

I would definitely like to see more studies done... but honestly, why would they waste their money, they sell enough of it that it's just unnecessary to invest in a scientific study with a large number of participants...


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

I just think money is spent better elsewhere. Im not out to prove an individual wrong, I just think you could save money buying more food, or whey, and get more results than off of glutamine powder, peptids or l-glutamine


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 22, 2003)

definitely food for thought... thx for taking the time to post it...


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## Arnold (Dec 22, 2003)

I am not posting the following article to prove or disprove anything, I just thought it was interesting:


_Introduction:

  L-glutamine is the 
  most prevalent amino acid in the bloodstream and 
  because human cells readily synthesize it, is usually 
  considered a non-essential amino acid. It is found in 
  high concentration in skeletal muscle, lung, liver, 
  brain, and stomach tissue. Skeletal muscle contains the 
  greatest intracellular concentration of glutamine, 
  comprising up to 60 percent of total body glutamine 
  stores, and is considered the primary storage depot and 
  exporter of glutamine to other tissues. Under certain 
  pathological circumstances the body's tissues need more 
  glutamine than the amount supplied by diet and 
  biosynthesis. During catabolic stress intracellular 
  glutamine levels can drop more than 50 percent, and it 
  is under these circumstances that supplemental 
  glutamine becomes necessary.1 

  In times of metabolic stress, glutamine is released 
  into circulation, where it is transported to the tissue 
  in need. Intracellular skeletal muscle glutamine 
  concentration is affected by various insults, including 
  injury, sepsis, prolonged stress, starvation, and the 
  use of glucocorticoids. Therefore, glutamine has been 
  re-classified as a conditionally essential amino acid. 
  Research demonstrates glutamine supplementation may be 
  beneficial when added to total parenteral nutrition (TPN) 
  for surgery, trauma, and cancer patients. In addition, 
  evidence suggests it may provide benefit for certain 
  gastrointestinal conditions, wound healing, critically 
  ill neonates, HIV/AIDS patients, immune enhancement in 
  endurance athletes, and prevention of complications 
  associated with chemotherapy, radiation, and bone 
  marrow transplant.1,2



  Biochemistry:

  L-glutamine accounts 
  for 30-35 percent of the amino acid nitrogen in the 
  plasma. It contains two ammonia groups, one from its 
  precursor, glutamate, and the other from free ammonia 
  in the bloodstream. One of glutamine's roles is to 
  protect the body from high levels of ammonia by acting 
  as a nitrogen shuttle. Thus, glutamine can act as a 
  buffer, accepting, then releasing excess ammonia when 
  needed to form other amino acids, amino sugars, 
  nucleotides, and urea. This capacity to accept and 
  donate nitrogen makes glutamine the major vehicle for 
  nitrogen transfer among tissues. Glutamine is one of 
  the three amino acids involved in glutathione 
  synthesis. Glutathione, an important intracellular 
  antioxidant and hepatic detoxifier, is comprised of 
  glutamic acid, cysteine, and glycine.1,2


  Clinical Indications Gastrointestinal Disease: 

  The gastrointestinal tract is by far the 
  greatest user of glutamine in the body, as enterocytes 
  in the intestinal epithelium use glutamine as their 
  principal metabolic fuel. Most of the research on 
  glutamine and its connection to intestinal permeability 
  has been conducted in conjunction with the use of TPN. 
  Commercially available TPN solutions do not contain 
  glutamine, which can result in atrophy of the mucosa 
  and villi of the small intestine. Addition of glutamine 
  to the TPN solution reverses mucosal atrophy associated 
  with various gastrointestinal conditions.3 
  Research has demonstrated glutamine-enriched TPN 
  decreases villous atrophy, increases jejunal weight, 
  and decreases intestinal permeability.4,5 
  Trauma, infection, starvation, chemotherapy, and other 
  stressors are all associated with a derangement of 
  normal intestinal permeability. One potential 
  consequence of increased intestinal permeability is 
  microbial translocation. Bacteria, fungi, and their 
  toxins may translocate across the mucosal barrier into 
  the bloodstream and cause sepsis.6 
  In numerous animal studies of experimentally induced 
  intestinal hyperpermeability, the addition of glutamine 
  or glutamine dipeptides (stable dipeptides of glutamine 
  with alanine or glycine) to TPN improved gut barrier 
  function, as well as immune activity in the gut.7 
  Conditions characterized by increased intestinal 
  permeability that might benefit from glutamine 
  supplementation include food allergies and associated 
  conditions, Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, and 
  irritable bowel syndrome. A clinical study of 
  ulcerative colitis patients demonstrated that feeding 
  30 g daily of glutamine-rich germinated barley 
  foodstuff (GBF) for four weeks resulted in significant 
  clinical and endoscopic improvement, independent of 
  disease state. Disease exacerbation returned when GBF 
  treatment was discontinued.8 
  It has also been suggested that cabbage juice 
  consumption may provide benefit to patients with 
  gastric ulcers and gastritis, by virtue of its high 
  glutamine content.


  Wound Healing:   

  The gastrointestinal tract has a large number of immune 
  cells along its length - fibroblasts, lymphocytes, and 
  macrophages. The ability of glutamine to nourish these 
  immune cells may account for its positive impact on the 
  gastrointestinal tract and immunity. Healing of 
  surgical wounds, trauma injuries, and burns is 
  accomplished in part by the actions of these immune 
  cells. Their proper functioning is dependent on 
  glutamine as a metabolic fuel for growth and 
  proliferation. Therefore, a depletion of intracellular 
  glutamine can slow growth of these cells, and 
  ultimately prolong healing.1 A small clinical study 
  conducted recently in Poland demonstrated 
  glutamine-supplemented TPN rapidly improved a number of 
  immune parameters in malnourished surgical patients 
  with sepsis.9 
  Additional clinical trials also suggest that glutamine 
  supplementation, as well as arginine and omega-3 fatty 
  acids, may promote restoration of normal tissue 
  function and intestinal permeability in post-operative 
  patients.10,11


  Infection and Immunity: 

  Decreases in glutamine concentrations may 
  result in an increased rate of infection in certain 
  stressed patient populations. Critically ill newborn 
  infants frequently display protein-calorie malnutrition 
  due to the demands of sepsis and respiratory failure. A 
  study of nine critically ill infants given a 
  glutamine-supplemented enteral formula (0.3 g/kg 
  glutamine daily) for five days demonstrated a 
  significant decrease in infection and septic 
  complications (20% in the glutamine group versus 75% in 
  the control group).12

  Endurance athletes also have decreased plasma glutamine concentrations 
  after prolonged, strenuous exercise. This post-exercise 
  glutamine depletion and associated immunosuppression 
  may render the athlete more susceptible to infection. A 
  group of 151 elite runners and rowers were given two 
  drinks containing either glutamine or placebo 
  immediately after, and two hours post-exercise, and 
  then asked to complete questionnaires regarding the 
  incidence of infection during the seven days 
  post-exercise. The percentage of patients 
  infection-free during the seven days was significantly 
  higher in the glutamine group (81%) than in the placebo 
  group (49%).13


  HIV/AIDS: 

  HIV infection appears to induce glutamine deficiency, 
  resulting in muscle protein wasting, particularly in 
  the AIDS stage of the infection.14 
  Approximately 20 percent of AIDS patients also have 
  abnormal intestinal permeability.15 
  Clinical studies have demonstrated glutamine 
  supplementation has significant benefit in these 
  patients. A double-blind, placebo-controlled study was 
  conducted with 68 HIV-infected patients having 
  documented weight loss who were given a nutrient 
  mixture containing 14 g L-glutamine twice daily for 
  eight weeks. Body weight, lean body mass, and fat mass 
  were measured throughout the eight-week period. At 
  eight weeks, patients taking the glutamine mixture had 
  gained 3.0 ± 0.5 kg of body weight compared to 0.37 ± 
  0.84 kg in the placebo group. The body weight gain in 
  the glutamine group was primarily lean body mass while 
  the placebo group lost lean body mass. An additional 
  benefit in the supplemented group was improved immune 
  status as evidenced by increased CD3 and CD8 cell 
  counts, and decreased HIV viral load.16 
  In another double-blind, placebo controlled study of 
  AIDS patients with abnormal intestinal permeability, 
  glutamine supplementation (8 g daily for 28 days) 
  resulted in stabilization of intestinal permeability 
  and enhanced intestinal absorption.15


  Cancer and Bone Marrow: 

  Transplantation Like enterocytes, rapidly 
  growing tumors have high glutaminase activity, using 
  glutamine as their main fuel source.17 
  Consequently, glutamine supplementation has been 
  controversial in cancer patients. In vitro research has 
  found glutamine added to tumor cell cultures increased 
  cellular growth.18,19 
  On the other hand, in vivo animal studies have not 
  found glutamine increases tumor growth. In fact, one 
  animal study demonstrated that glutamine 
  supplementation actually reduced tumor growth by 40 
  percent and stimulated natural killer cell activity.20

  Research has also suggested that rapidly growing tumors can become 
  glutamine traps and deplete muscle glutamine and 
  glutathione,17 although a clinical study of 32 colon 
  cancer patients demonstrated colon tumors did not 
  extract or trap more glutamine than intestinal tissue 
  without tumor.21

  Fluoruoracil/folinic 
  acid chemotherapy for colorectal cancer often causes 
  diarrhea. In a double-blind, placebo-controlled, 
  randomized trial, glutamine (18 g daily) was given to 
  70 colorectal cancer patients five days prior to their 
  first cycle of chemotherapy. Treatment continued for a 
  total of 15 days and intestinal permeability and 
  absorption were measured. When compared to baseline 
  values, glutamine reduced changes in permeability and 
  absorption induced by chemotherapy and may be of 
  benefit in preventing chemotherapy-induced diarrhea.22 
  A similar effect was seen in esophageal cancer patients 
  undergoing radiation and chemotherapy, but the daily 
  glutamine dose was higher at 30 grams daily.23

  Studies of glutamine's benefit in parenteral nutrition during and 
  after bone marrow transplant (BMT) have yielded mixed 
  results. Three earlier studies demonstrated glutamine 
  supplementation during BMT was of some benefit in 
  minimizing side effects of high-dose cytotoxic 
  chemotherapy, namely oropharyngeal mucositis, decreased 
  lymphocyte counts, and hepatic veno-occlusive disease.24-26 
  More recent studies, however, demonstrated 
  glutamine-enriched TPN solutions had only limited 
  benefit in BMT patients, in regard to number of days on 
  TPN, length of hospital stay, degree of mucositis, 
  white blood cell counts, infection, and diarrhea.27,28

  Dosage and Toxicity Numerous clinical 
  trials in humans demonstrate that even at high doses, 
  glutamine administration is without side effects and 
  well tolerated, even during times of physiologic 
  stress. Glutamine is administered orally in bulk powder 
  or in encapsulated form. Dosages vary greatly depending 
  on the clinical situation, but are in the range of two 
  to four grams daily in divided doses for general wound 
  healing and intestinal support. For critically ill 
  adults, cancer, and HIV patients, the dosage is much 
  higher, ranging from 10-40 grams per day in divided 
  doses. For these patients, the bulk powder form of 
  glutamine eases administration of large doses.



  References 

  1. Souba WW. 
  Glutamine Physiology, Biochemistry, and Nutrition in 
  Critical Illness. Austin, TX: R.G. Landes Co.; 1992.
  2. Askanazi J, 
  Carpenter YA, Michelsen CB, et al. Muscle and plasma 
  amino acids following injury: Influence of intercurrent 
  infection. Ann Surg 1980;192:78-85. 
  3. O'Dwyer ST, Smith 
  RJ, Hwang TL, Wilmore DW. Maintenance of small bowel 
  mucosa with glutamine-enriched parenteral nutrition. J 
  Parent Enteral Nutr 1989;13:579-585. 
  4. Hwang TL, O'Dwyer 
  ST, Smith RJ, et al. Preservation of small bowel mucosa 
  using glutamine-enriched parenteral nutrition. Surg 
  Forum 1987;38:56.
  5. Li J, 
  Langkamp-Henken B, Suzuki K, Stahlgren LH. Glutamine 
  prevents parenteral nutrition-induced increases in 
  intestinal permeability. J Parent Enteral Nutr 
  1994;18:303-307.
  6. Barber AE, Jones 
  WG, Minei JP, et al. Glutamine or fiber supplementation 
  of a defined formula diet. Impact on bacterial 
  translocation, tissue composition, and response to 
  endotoxin. J Parent Enteral Nutr 1990;14:335-343.
  7. Khan J, Iiboshi Y, 
  Cui L, et al. Alanyl-glutamine-supplemented parenteral 
  nutrition increased luminal mucus gel and decreased 
  permeability in the rat small intestine. J Parent 
  Enteral Nutr 1999;23:24-31. 
  8. Kanuchi O, Iwanaga 
  T, Mitsuyama K. Germinated barley foodstuff feeding. A 
  novel neutraceutical therapeutic strategy for 
  ulcerative colitis. Digestion 2001;63:60-67.
  9. Slotwinski R, 
  Pertkiewicz M, Lech G, Szczygiel B. Cellular immunity 
  changes after total parenteral nutrition enriched with 
  glutamine in patients with sepsis and malnutrition. Pol 
  Merkuriusz Lek 2000;8:405-408. [Article in Polish]

  10. O'Flaherty L, 
  Bouchier-Hayes DJ. Immunonutrition and surgical 
  practice. Proc Nutr Soc 1999;58:831-837. 

  11. Jian ZM, Cao JD, 
  Zhu XG, et al. The impact of alanyl-glutamine on 
  clinical safety, nitrogen balance, intestinal 
  permeability, and clinical outcome in postoperative 
  patients; a randomized, double-blind, controlled study 
  of 120 patients. J Parenter Enteral Nutr 
  1999;23:S62-S66.
  12. Barbosa E, 
  Moreira EA, Goes JE, Faintuch J. Pilot study with a 
  glutamine-supplemented enteral formula in critically 
  ill infants. Rev Hosp Clin Fac Med Sao Paulo 
  1999;54:21-24. 
  13. Castell LM, 
  Poortmans JR, Newsholme EA. Does glutamine have a role 
  in reducing infections in athletes? Eur J Appl Physiol 
  Occup Physiol 1996;73:488-490.
  14. Shabert JK, 
  Wilmore DW. Glutamine deficiency as a cause of human 
  immunodeficiency virus wasting. Med Hypotheses 
  1996;46:252-256.
  15. Noyer CM, Simon 
  D, Borczuk A, et al. A double-blind placebo-controlled 
  pilot study of glutamine therapy for abnormal 
  intestinal permeability in patients with AIDS. Am J 
  Gastroenterol 1998;93:972-975. 
  16. Clark RH, Feleke 
  G, Din M, et al. Nutritional treatment for acquired 
  immunodeficiency virus-associated wasting using beta-hydroxy 
  beta-methylbutyrate, glutamine, and arginine: a 
  randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. J 
  Parenter Enteral Nutr 2000;24:133-139. 
  17. Klimberg VS, 
  McClellan JL. Glutamine, cancer, and its therapy. Am J 
  Surg 1996;172:418-424. 
  18. Ollenschlager G, 
  Simmel A, Roth E. Availability of glutamine from 
  peptides and acetylglutamine for human tumor-cell 
  cultures. Metabolism 1989;38:S40-S42. 
  19. Moyer MP, 
  Armstrong A, Aust JB, et al. Effects of gastrin, 
  glutamine, and somatostatin on the in vitro growth of 
  normal and malignant human gastric mucosal cells. Arch 
  Surg 1986;121:285-288.
  20. Fahr MJ, 
  Kornbluth J, Blossom S, et al. Harry M. Vars Research 
  Award. Glutamine enhances immunoregulation of tumor 
  growth. J Parenter Enteral Nutr 1994;18:471-476. 

  21. van der Hulst RR, 
  von Meyenfeldt MF, Deutz NE, Soeters PB. Glutamine 
  extraction by the gut is reduced in patients with 
  depleted gastrointestinal cancer. Ann Surg 
  1997;225:112-121.
  22. Daniele B, 
  Perrone F, Gallo C, et al. Oral glutamine in the 
  prevention of fluorouracil induced intestinal toxicity: 
  a double blind, placebo controlled, randomised trial. 
  Gut 2001;48:28-33.
  23. Yoshida S, Matsui 
  M, Shirouzu Y, et al. Effects of glutamine supplements 
  and radio-chemotherapy on systemic immune and gut 
  barrier function in patients with advanced esophageal 
  cancer. Ann Surg 1998;227:485-491. 
  24. Anderson PM, 
  Ramsay NK, Shu XO, et al. Effect of low-dose oral 
  glutamine on painful stomatitis during bone marrow 
  transplantation. Bone Marrow Transplant 
  1998;22:339-344. 
  25. Brown SA, Goringe 
  A, Fegan C, et al. Parenteral glutamine protects 
  hepatic function during bone marrow transplantation. 
  Bone Marrow Transplant 1998;22:281-284. 
  26. Ziegler TR, Bye 
  RK, Persinger RL. Effects of glutamine supplementation 
  on circulating lymphocytes after bone marrow 
  transplantation: a pilot study. Am J Med Sci 
  1998;315:4-10. 
  27. Coghlin Dickson 
  TM, Wong RM, Offrin RS, et al. Effect of oral glutamine 
  supplementation during bone marrow transplantation. J 
  Parenter Enteral Nutr 2000;24:61-66.
  28. Schloerb PR, 
  Skikne BS. Oral and parenteral glutamine in bone marrow 
  transplantation: a randomized, double-blind study. J 
  Parenteral Enteral Nutr 1999;23:117-122.   _


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

im not saying it is not good for gut health, and when you are sick


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## Randy (Dec 22, 2003)

This was my point. You can post endless studies of those supporting Glutamine, as well as those that don't.  Now what did we learn here


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 22, 2003)

well, Randy I hate to be the one to piss on your Christmas tree... but we learned glutamine doesn't do much for building or improving recovery for muscle...


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

HoldDaMayo, my son, you have seen the light, and the light is good. Can I get an Amen from the Congregation.


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## Randy (Dec 22, 2003)

Oh no Mayo, I have a piss deflector over my tree, you just can't see it    And wow! your opinion is so easily influenced Mayo.  I sure don't base my decision on a few random University studies posted from the internet..    But one thing I can say.  I don't think the Glutamine dealers will go broke if you guys don't buy it  



> _*Originally posted by HoldDaMayo *_
> well, Randy I hate to be the one to piss on your Christmas tree... but we learned glutamine doesn't do much for building or improving recovery for muscle...


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## Arnold (Dec 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by HoldDaMayo *_
> ... but we learned glutamine doesn't do much for building or improving recovery for muscle...



well, I will continue to take my l-glutamine, you continue not to, and in then end we will see who is bigger.


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 22, 2003)

I agree with you, glutamine will be popular for a long time... and I do think it's a useful supplement... it seems it's beneficial area isn't really related to muscles... so much as your stomach and immune system... I'm in no way trying to say it's useless... 

But I did read quite a few different studies and also even researched the method they used to test the digestion and break down of the compound... 

but then again... I'm not an expert... I'm just trying to learn everything I can... and I like to take in as many non-biased perspectives as I can... 

Science has been wrong, and will continue to give out some false information... I just have to make the decision as far as what's best for me... and we all make that decision... 

We all make the best educated decisions we can... right?


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 22, 2003)

oh yeah, Prince, I still take my 10g's of L-glutamine with my PWO shake... SHhhhh... don't tell Prolang!!


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## Arnold (Dec 22, 2003)




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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

HoldDaMayo, your out of my "cool" club now!!

j/k


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

I will just be spending my $30 on good steak, tastes much better than glutamine, plus I get complete protein, creatine, and CLA all in 10 ounces of dead animal. Woohoo.


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 22, 2003)

I'll see your Steak and raise you a SIDE SALAD!


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

Only if the salad is made with M 1T dressing.


(inside joke, on AM, one guy made M 1T in an oral solution in extra virgin olive oil @ 10mg/ml, hes putting it in salads)


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## Randy (Dec 22, 2003)

Mayo,

First you tell me basically that Glutamine yields no benefits , now just because Prince favors it your tune changes..... hmmmm you sound pretty wishy washy to me 



> _*Originally posted by HoldDaMayo *_
> I agree with you, glutamine will be popular for a long time... and I do think it's a useful supplement... it seems it's beneficial area isn't really related to muscles... so much as your stomach and immune system... I'm in no way trying to say it's useless...
> 
> But I did read quite a few different studies and also even researched the method they used to test the digestion and break down of the compound...
> ...


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

Dont worry Randy, Ill set him straight


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## Randy (Dec 22, 2003)

Ok, you do that prolangtum.


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 22, 2003)

Actually... I think my open mindedness to try and learn rather than be hardheaded and accept common knowledge comes across as wishy washy... 

but really, when did I say it yields no benefits?  I mentioned about muscle recovery and growth... but that's in no way saying it's useless... 

Admit it, you're mad because I pissed on your Christmas tree... I apologize... I guess my ex girlfriend was right... I am a dog...


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## Twin Peak (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by HoldDaMayo *_
> no offense TP... but you just spent your time in this thread asking people to back up what they say... then you state this... wtf is this supposed to mean?  seriously bro... if you're going to ask other people to back their statements up, don't go throwing around garbage BS like this...



You are kidding right?

If you read this statement in the context it was intended, it is perfectly acceptable.  I was responding to Prince's inapt analogy to "what the industry thinks" about steroids, over the years.  

Please, if you want to come down on me for a statement I make (or fail to make) feel free, but at least do so in the context of my comment, and not take me grossly out of context.

I could throw dozens of studies at you, but it seems you have seen many.  And there are ZERO positive studies for glutamine enhancing hypertrophy in healthy weight training males; but again, you recognize that.

And lastly, you seem to have missed my point, which is simply what Pro has stated above:



> I just think money is spent better elsewhere. Im not out to prove an individual wrong, I just think you could save money buying more food, or whey, and get more results than off of glutamine powder, peptids or l-glutamine


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

TP, I was simply speaking of the generic generalizations you were discussing with Randy... Then you tossed out that statement about it being accepted indurstry wide... without anything to back it up at all...  you have to admit, whether or not you have proof just throwing out a statement like that after what you were telling Randy seemed a bit hypocritical... and i think that's fairly accurate...

But yes, I do get your point...


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## Twin Peak (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by HoldDaMayo *_
> TP, I was simply speaking of the generic generalizations you were discussing with Randy... Then you tossed out that statement about it being accepted indurstry wide... without anything to back it up at all...  you have to admit, whether or not you have proof just throwing out a statement like that after what you were telling Randy seemed a bit hypocritical... and i think that's fairly accurate...
> 
> But yes, I do get your point...



No, I think you missed my point.  It wasn't hypocritical because the context I was discussing was what the industry thought about these things, in response to Prince's post.


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## Arnold (Dec 23, 2003)

Glutamine And
Human Enhancement
by Robert M. Hackman, Ph.D.

Inducing the body to burn more fat while preserving muscle with growth hormone is a great way to lose weight 

Our understanding of the amino acid glutamine is turning topsy-turvy as scientists uncover ever more unique and powerful roles it plays in our bodies. These range from enhancing muscle growth and neutralizing excess body acid to losing weight and combating the effects of aging. Small wonder that scores of new studies about glutamine are making their way into scientific journals all over the world.

Amino acids are the building blocks that form body and dietary proteins. Twenty-two different amino acids occur in nature and have traditionally been grouped into two categories--nonessential and essential. Nonessential amino acids are made by the liver from general dietary protein intake and don't have to be consumed directly. In contrast, essential amino acids cannot be made "from scratch" by the liver and therefore must come from diet or supplements to meet the body's daily demands.

Glutamine has traditionally been considered a "nonessential" amino acid, but current research suggests that it may be "conditionally essential" under certain metabolic conditions such as exercise.

Exercise And Muscle Mass
During strenuous exercise the need for glutamine appears to increase beyond the level ordinarily made in the liver. Recent research findings illustrate the dramatic effect exertion has on the body's glutamine reserves. Seven healthy athletes doing intensive anaerobic exercise (a single short-distance sprint) showed a 45 percent drop in plasma glutamine compared to their pre-exercise levels. When the same athletes did intensive aerobic exercise (10 days of long-distance running), their plasma glutamine dropped 50 percent.1 Some runners still had depressed glutamine levels even six days after recovering from the aerobic program, suggesting that they needed more glutamine than their diets could provide.

These findings are especially important to athletes, as glutamine is essential to muscle growth. It may help reduce the rate of muscle breakdown (anticatabolic) relative to the rate of muscle growth (anabolic)2 and increase concentrations of plasma arginine ( 1.95 gr per serving) and glutamate, two amino acids linked to muscle-strengthening growth hormone.

In another study, nine healthy volunteers ages 32 to 64 were given either a beverage containing 2 g of glutamine or a placebo drink. During the next 90 minutes, blood samples were collected and measured for bicarbonate and plasma growth hormone--two substances stimulated by glutamine. Subjects who consumed supplemental glutamine showed significant increases in glutamine (12 percent to 19 percent above presupplement levels), bicarbonate (12 percent) and growth hormone (up to 430 percent), whereas those drinking the placebo beverage showed no changes.3

Bicarbonate is one of the body's primary base buffers and helps to deactivate excess blood acids such as ammonia or urea that are generated during heavy anaerobic exercises like weight training or sprinting. In addition to stimulating the production of bicarbonate, glutamine itself acts as a buffer--its negative charge negates the net positive charge of an acid. Without this neutralization, blood acids and muscle acid (e.g., lactic acid) might accumulate, leading to fatigue and muscle soreness.

During strenuous exercise, however, the liver may not be able to produce enough glutamine to keep up with the amount of acid being generated by the body. New research suggests that glutamine supplements may provide additional buffering power when the acid/base balance becomes more acidic--enabling longer, harder workouts with less muscle soreness the next day.4

This study also showed that subjects taking a glutamine supplement had accelerated fat burning compared to those taking the placebo. No one exercised during the study period. Inducing the body to burn more fat while preserving muscle with growth hormone is one of the most effective, healthy ways to lose weight and keep it off. Of course, nothing replaces a well-balanced diet and regular exercise for weight management, but supplemental glutamine may direct the body's metabolism in a helpful direction. In addition, if a person exercises, even gently, glutamine may maximize the benefits and minimize the discomfort.

Considering all these effects together, glutamine may potentially retard some of the effects of aging by preserving muscle mass and reducing fat accumulation. Its ability to boost growth hormone levels (up to 430 percent) is a case in point. Growth hormone helps build and strengthen muscles and clear acid from body fluids, but starting at age 30, its production declines. This decline is associated with muscle loss (muscle breakdown is accelerated under acid conditions), increased body fat and accelerated aging.5 Glutamine supplements may help delay such developments.

Insulin Resistance
Supplemental glutamine was recently shown to reduce body weight and prevent high blood sugar and high insulin levels in mice fed a high-fat diet.6 The mice were genetically predisposed to become overweight and develop high blood-sugar levels when consuming a high-fat diet, but these unhealthy outcomes were essentially neutralized in the mice that had glutamine added to their food.

Increases in body fat and body weight and high blood sugar are thought to result from persistently high levels of insulin in the blood, a condition known as insulin resistance (see H&NB, Sept. 1997, for an article on insulin resistance). Insulin levels skyrocketed in the mice fed a high-fat diet without supplemental glutamine, while those fed the glutamine-supplemented diet showed normal insulin patterns.

Although this is only an animal trial, the potential ability of glutamine supplements to reduce insulin resistance is exciting. Insulin resistance is now estimated to occur in half of all obese people and is considered a major risk factor for heart disease, high blood pressure and diabetes. While it is premature to jump from animal studies to conclusions about humans, the research so far may suggest a safe, nutritional way to adjust metabolism and look and feel healthy.

Mental Energy
Glutamine and other amino acids such as choline, tyrosine and phenylalanine are used by the brain and central nervous system (CNS) to make neurotransmitters--biochemical mediators that stimulate or reduce the brain's electrical impulses, which translate into thoughts, sensations and emotions. Different neurotransmitters can also influence perceptions of energy or fatigue. Neurotransmitters appear to get metabolized, or "used up," as a normal part of body function. Heavy mental or physical stress may cause the CNS to metabolize more neurotransmitters, so whether depletion is caused by intensive concentration, a demanding job or exercise, full replenishment of these essential biochemicals is vital to keep the brain "tuned up."

Neurotransmitter production is thought to increase when the amino acids they are formed from are supplemented in the diet. If this is true for glutamine, nutritional strategies that replenish it may also boost perception of energy or help prevent mental fatigue.

Two final points are important for the glutamine story. First, too much glutamine may be counterproductive. In humans, more than two grams is likely to result in less growth hormone production, less bicarbonate buffer, and probably no further energy benefit. In fact, elevated doses may overstimulate brain neurotransmitters and be dangerous. So, while some glutamine may be beneficial, large amounts may be a waste of money and even harmful.

Secondly, most of the glutamine studies appearing in scientific journals are conducted with isolated cells or animals. More human clinical research is needed to fill in missing pieces of the glutamine puzzle. Nonetheless, glutamine's emerging picture is exciting and cause for optimism. It may become an essential supplement for consumers in years to come.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 23, 2003)

That's cool.

So you take glutamine, and I'll spend my money elsewhere, and we'll see who is sitting in a hottub in their backyard.


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> No, I think you missed my point.  It wasn't hypocritical because the context I was discussing was what the industry thought about these things, in response to Prince's post.



I think you're confused... Prince hadn't even posted anything when your post occured which included a direct quote from Randy... see post #7 in this thread....

That whole context argument is a mystery to me... maybe you were thinking about another forum you were posting on...


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## Testosterone (Dec 23, 2003)

L-Glutamine is #1 Anti-Catabolic Supplement on Planet.
Just as you guys take Micellar Casein damn seriously!

Ther is and there will be no susbstitute for L-Glutamine or their latest cousins Glutamine Peptides.

While it is best to take L-Glutamine in plain water for max results!
It can't be miced with any shake or anything like that.
Glutamine peptides are one step better. It is stable, absorbs better and can be mixed with ANY Protein shake without compromising its efficiency!


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## Twin Peak (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by HoldDaMayo *_
> I think you're confused... Prince hadn't even posted anything when your post occured which included a direct quote from Randy... see post #7 in this thread....
> 
> That whole context argument is a mystery to me... maybe you were thinking about another forum you were posting on...



My bad, you are correct.  Still the context was similar, not being hypocritical.  In other words, he was putting forth "X and Y use it, so it must be good, mustn't it?" and I was trying to point out that "many do not, so give me something else."

Recall that the burden is on the person claiming efficacy to show efficacy.  Also, I am lazy, and Prolangtum handled that.


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## Arnold (Dec 23, 2003)

some inherent bias due to the source...


Glutamine Supplementation - The Latest Research 

by Paul Cribb, B.H.Sci HMS
AST Director of Research

While supplementing with glutamine will not enable you to pack on 40 pounds of muscle in six weeks or smash national weight lifting records, this should be commonsense to most bodybuilders. However, glutamine supplementation does have a subtle yet integral role in building a premium body that excels at athletic performance.

Don???t let anyone bluff you into neglecting glutamine supplementation in favor of some new fad supplement. For over a decade we???ve known muscle cell building mechanisms are absolutely governed by the amount of glutamine held with the cell.[1] Muscle glutamine levels govern protein synthesis rates, maintenance of a positive nitrogen balance and any accumulation of lean tissue.[2] When combined with steady insulin levels, this muscle building response is shown to double.

Glutamine is also the most potent substrate at increasing muscle cell volume.[3] When intracellular levels of glutamine increase, so does cell volume.[4] Volumizing a muscle cell switches on anabolic mechanisms and shuts off the mechanisms that cause muscle breakdown. The amount of glutamine retained in muscle appears to control not only cell volume, but also the entire growth process. Via direct and indirect mechanisms, glutamine supplementation will enhance the body???s capacity to synthesize lean tissue.[1-8]

Peptide vs Free Form ??? Which is superior?

There has always been debate among athletes and the medical community regarding the most effective form of glutamine supplementation. There are basically three types of glutamine sold as nutritional supplements; free form (L-glutamine), protein-bound, and glutamine peptides.

Previously, due to limitations in methodology, science has been unable to examine the fate of glutamine supplementation directly. Now recent advances, called isotope tracer infusions, allow us to follow and track the fate of an amino acid when administered orally. A recently completed study put an end to the debate on which form of glutamine supplementation is superior.[9]

This study was the first to use isotope-labeled probes to assess the metabolism of glutamine in response to glutamine supplementation via the free amino acid or a peptide-bound source. The main conclusion of this research was that both sources were absorbed in exactly the same manner, just as effectively as each other, with no differences between them.[9]

Both peptide-bound and free form glutamine supplementation increased plasma glutamine levels to a similar extent, and both types of supplementation suffered a 65% local utilization by the intestinal tract. The researchers concluded that glutamine is readily bioavailable when taken either in the free form or protein bound source.[9]

Closer examination of the methodology and the data obtained reveals that the isotope tracer technique used by the researchers did not take into account the de novo synthesis of glutamine from the BCAA content of the other peptides within the peptide-bound glutamine mixture.[9] Therefore, the researchers admit that the glutamine plasma appearance readings from protein-bound glutamine supplementation could be an over-estimation of the glutamine derived from the protein-bound glutamine supplement.[9] Subsequently, the free form glutamine supplement maybe slightly more effective at increasing plasma glutamine levels for up take by muscle.

The bottom line is that there appears to be very little difference between peptide bound and free form glutamine in terms of absorption and effectiveness. So don???t let any supplement marketer tell you otherwise. If one form has to be better than the other, then based on this latest research, free form glutamine is probably more effective at directly enhancing circulating levels of glutamine.

What to expect from glutamine supplementation . . .

Research shows quite clearly that the vast majority of the glutamine supplement you consume won???t even get to your muscles to exert its potent muscle building effects. However, this is not a bad thing!

When the pseudo ???muscle building experts??? slam glutamine supplementation as ???a waste of time and money??? they fail to understand that maintaining intramuscular glutamine stores is the key to muscle growth, and supplementation indirectly ensures this process.

Research demonstrates that external sources of glutamine follow such exclusive cellular transport mechanisms and demanding metabolism pathways, the glutamine supplement will always be utilized to fulfill whatever metabolic demand is greatest.[10] In doing so, supplementation relieves the burden on muscle having to meet these relentless demands and leaves muscle glutamine stores intact. This ensures muscle anabolic (building) mechanisms are uninterrupted and this aspect alone will accelerate the growth process from intense training.

Glutamine supplementation will help maintain high levels of glutathione (our premier antioxidant). [11] As I have reported previously, increases in glutathione concentrations within the body correlates directly with increases in lean mass.[8,12,13] However, probably even more important is the fact that supplementing with glutamine also increases the health of every type of cell within the intestinal tract.[2,5] This is another indirect way glutamine supplementation enhances muscle gains.

From your lips to your anus (including stomach) is merely one long tube. The health of this ???tube??? determines the degree of absorption of every nutrient you consume. Glutamine supplementation optimizes the health of this entire system, enhancing your ability to absorb vital nutrients and prevent bacterial translocation and infection.[2] Do not underestimate this component. No matter how excellent your nutrition, if your absorption capabilities are below par you???ll always be lacking and never reach your potential in health or sport.

Glutamine supplementation also keeps that all-important organ, the liver, in tip-top condition, and enhances all hepatic antioxidant enzymes.[14,15] Never forget, the condition of your liver controls your health and longevity, and a healthy liver is paramount to building and maintaining muscle throughout life. The liver is responsible for secreting large amounts of the potent anabolic growth factors that build muscle.[16]

Other recent research demonstrates that consuming 6???10 grams of glutamine after training will enhance muscle glycogen synthesis and recovery resulting in higher glycogen levels within muscle. Remember that glycogen is the storage form of the primary fuel (muscle glucose) of intense exercise, and that accumulation of glycogen in muscle after training is the initial anabolic process that sets the stage for gains in lean mass.

Simply because free form glutamine isn???t a new, super-hyped supplement with amazing before and after pictures does not mean for one second that it is not a damn effective supplement. It is a supplement that no hard training athlete should be without.


References:

1. Watford M. Does glutamine regulate skeletal muscle protein turnover? TIBS 14:1-4.1989.
2. vanAcker BA,.et al. Glutamine:the pivot of our nitrogen economy? JPEN, 23(5suppl):S45-8, 1999.
3. Haussinger D et al. Cellular hydration state: An important determinant of protein catabolism in health and disease. Lancet 341:1330-1332.1993.
4. Rennie MJ et al. Glutamine metabolism and transport in skeletal muscle and heart and their clinical relevance. J.Nutr. 126: p1142S-1149S, 1996.
5. Miller AL. Therapeutic considerations of L-glutamine: a review of the literature. Altern Med Rev. 4(4):239-48,1999.
6. Neu. J,. et al. Glutamine nutrition and metabolism: Where do we go from here? FASEB.J.10. p829-837. 1996.
7. Parry-Billings,.et al. A communicational link between skeletal muscle, brain and cells of the immune system. Int.J.Sports Med.1,Suppl 2:S122-S128,1990.
8. Kinscherf R,.et al. Low plasma glutamine in combination with high glutamate levels indicate risk for loss of body cell mass in healthy individuals: the effect of N-acetyl-cysteine. J.Mol.Med. vol 74:393-400 1996.


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Recall that the burden is on the person claiming efficacy to show efficacy.  Also, I am lazy, and Prolangtum handled that.



alright, I'm gonna let you slide on that one   Prolang did a pretty good job backing up what you were saying


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## prolangtum (Dec 23, 2003)

Unfortunatley, all those abstracts do not support glutamine supplementation in healthy individuals, they either come to the conclusion that hard trained indivduals lose glutamine (eat more protein) or that it helps sickly individuals.


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## Arnold (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> ...or that it helps sickly individuals.



please remind of the primary use of anabolic steroids in medicine?

yes, that is another one of my "inapt analogies".


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## Twin Peak (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> please remind of the primary use of anabolic steroids in medicine?
> 
> yes, that is another one of my "inapt analogies".



Hmm, I think I am going to start taking antibiotics, regularly, for muscle gains.


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## Arnold (Dec 23, 2003)

you might want to ask prolangtum to dig up some studies on that first.


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## prolangtum (Dec 23, 2003)

Prince,
These arent personal attacks against you. I see this all too often on many boards, especially some of the steroid boards. This is a close knit community here, and outside opinions are not always welcome. I just like to offer my opinion, opposing viewpoints are what make discussion boards useful. All too often on boards like Elitefitness, the mod/admin/vets words are taken like they are scripture. It seems like a shock to some people that I would disagree with you (the owner) or GoPro, etc. So people have been quick to jump on my case, to defend both of you. I hope you and others dont take these as personal attacks, it seems like you guys are. Words of mods/vets/admin dont seem to get questioned around here too much. I just like to add my opinion were I feel warranted to. You could be absolutley right about glutamine. I have tried high doses of glutamine for months, nothing happened. I find and read studies where it shows little benefit. Does that mean Im right? No. Does it mean your wrong? No.

..........Not sure where Im going with this post, methinks I took one too many painkillers this morning.


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## Arnold (Dec 23, 2003)

prolangtum, I have no problem with you or your posts here.

Posting studies is great, I was just being a smart ass (TP lacks a sense of humor if you have not noticed)  

I do not care if you question me, prove me wrong, disagree or whatever. I was just trying to make the point that scientific studies and what is done in labs has been disproven in the field by bodybuilders in the past.

I post what I do, what I feel has worked for me and what has not, and what I have read in articles, etc. I am not a scientist or chemist, and I do not try to be.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> ..........Not sure where Im going with this post, methinks I took one too many painkillers this morning.



Will that help me make gains?


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## Testosterone (Dec 23, 2003)

Do Analgesics have some kind of Anabolic affect when taken in good quantities?


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## Arnold (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Testosterone *_
> Do Analgesics have some kind of Anabolic affect when taken in good quantities?



no, but I have seen some research/evidence that suggests the opposite.


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## prolangtum (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Will that help me make gains?


Yeah didnt you know? I got some Methyl Lortabs. They will make you hyooge. They're almost as hardcore as animal paks.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 23, 2003)

Gots to get me sum of dat, and dem animal paks to!


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## prolangtum (Dec 23, 2003)

I think VPX has a liposomal lortab


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## BabyArnold (Dec 23, 2003)

If it is an amino acid naturally occuring in the muscles, why not supplement with them? You should be breaking down muscle fibers and building them back up when you work out. Hence the term BodyBuilding. You shouldn't care about scientific precentages when it comes down to a substance helping or not hepling that much. If its found in your muscles, it's a good idea to add to it or replace it after a workout.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BabyArnold *_
> If it is an amino acid naturally occuring in the muscles, why not supplement with them? You should be breaking down muscle fibers and building them back up when you work out. Hence the term BodyBuilding. You shouldn't care about scientific precentages when it comes down to a substance helping or not hepling that much. If its found in your muscles, it's a good idea to add to it or replace it after a workout.



Clunk, clunk, clunk.

(That is the sound of my head, banging against the wall).


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## Randy (Dec 23, 2003)

Yeah I guess if I wore a pointed hat and worked for McDonalds, I would have to cut out Glutamine so I could afford my hot tub too.  

Me, I will eat my juicy lean steaks, and take my Glutamine like a big boy.  And I will take it in my new hot tub after my workout  

Why?  Cause I believe in it and can afford it .



> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> That's cool.
> 
> So you take glutamine, and I'll spend my money elsewhere, and we'll see who is sitting in a hottub in their backyard.


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## Randy (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> you might want to ask prolangtum to dig up some studies on that first.


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## Randy (Dec 24, 2003)

I heard Santa was dropping a couple barrels of Glutamine down Twin Peak and Prolangtum's Chimney  

Even Santa's reindeer use it    What do you think makes rudolfs nose so bright?


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## Twin Peak (Dec 24, 2003)

Why would Santa send me coal?  I have been a good boy this year.


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## prolangtum (Dec 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> What do you think makes rudolfs nose so bright?


Santa has a reindeer fetish.


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## Arnold (Dec 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Clunk, clunk, clunk.
> 
> (That is the sound of my head, banging against the wall).



Will that help me make gains?


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## Twin Peak (Dec 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Will that help me make gains?



There are many studies showing the correlation of head trauma and hypertrophy, so yes.


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## Arnold (Dec 24, 2003)

Randy must be HUUUUGE then!


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## Randy (Dec 24, 2003)

Hey..... I heard that Prince


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