# Improving chest



## Josh (Apr 30, 2002)

Hi all,

I am newbie to this forum, so sorry if my question has been discussed sometime before.  I've been working out for about 2 years.  One of the hardest body part for me to develop is my chest.  I have tried bench presses and flyes most of the time, but the development of my chest seems to be so slow, after 2 years there seems to be very minimal improvement in size.  Even my stomach is now bigger than my chest.  Another thing that I notice about exercising my chest is that I almost never got any sore feeling after doing any chest exercise.  When I do biceps and quads I almost always get sore feeling, which to me indicate that my muscles are reacting well with the training.  But such feeling never accompany my chest exercises, even when I lift near very near my max.

So my first questions in this forum are, how to work on chest muscles more effectively?  What mistakes have I been doing that may prevent my chest from developing properly?  Thanks.

Regards,
Josh


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## nikegurl (Apr 30, 2002)

couple things come to mind for me.  others will answer who know more though!

first - i found my strength increased more with barbell presses but my chest development improved when i switched over to dumbells.  either way - change is good.  for me i prefer to use dumbells most of the time.

another thing.  i used to feel a lot of my chest work in my front delts more then my chest.  2 things helped.  first - before i start a set i sort of tuck my shoulders underneath me.  i curl them farther behind and under on the bench.  doing that raises your chest up a little before you even start the set.  then the other thing is at the top of the movement after i complete the rep i do a strong squeeze or contraction at the finish of the movement.  that also seemed to make a difference.

welcome aboard!


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## Neil (Apr 30, 2002)

What does your current chest routine look like?


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## Arnold (Apr 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Neil *_
> What does your current chest routine look like?



I second that....

I find my chest being one of the easiest muscles to get sore.


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## Pitboss (Apr 30, 2002)

Chest is also my most lagging body part. My Triceps and shoulders are exceptionally strong and take the brunt of the work..   however I have found better results lately with Dumb bells and incorporating Hamemr strength machines into my routines.  I still do flat and decline BB bench for my first sets which seem to help fatigue my shoulders and triceps so I can concentrate more on the chest with DB's


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## ALBOB (Apr 30, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Josh *_how to work on chest muscles more effectively?



First I'd say answer Neil and Prince's question.  It's difficult for anybody to critique a routine before we see it.  Second I'll go ahead and throw out that the best results for my chest have come from pre-exhaust routines.  Do a pectoral isolation movement (DB Flyes, cable cross overs or pec deck) then move to a heavy compound movement (bench press, DB bench press, weighted dips [my favorite]).  Lastly, Nikegurl's tip about shoulders couldn't be more correct.  Before beginning any press bring your shoulder blades together as though you're pinching a pencil between them and keep them there for the entire set.  That will help take your deltoids out of the movement and better isolate your pecs.


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## nikegurl (Apr 30, 2002)

ooooh  albob!  much better way to explain (the pencil example)

i think i may have to try that pre-exhaust myself.  for some reason with chest i always want to see those weights go up.  b/c of that i've avoided pre-exhaust.  but now i have to remind myself - i want to build the muscle.  not be a powerlifter.  still hard sometimes.  i just want to keep moving down the db rack to heavier ones!  stupid...i know!  
 

tonight's chest - so great timing too.  thanks for the wake up!


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## ActionMatt (Apr 30, 2002)

Heavier weight = more growth.


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## nikegurl (Apr 30, 2002)

not sure i agree ActionMatt.  definitely true in the beginning.

i think it's more work on the muscle that counts which isn't exactly the same as heavier weight.  if you preexhaust chest you'll handle lighter weight when you do presses.  but could mean more growth.

not as simple as more weight = more growth (in my opinion)


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## ActionMatt (Apr 30, 2002)

Of course its not that simple. 

I was just noting that on the average, assuming the same rep range (5-10), more weight will mean a bigger muscle.

Now, if you want me to make it *complicated*, that I can do also.


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## nikegurl (Apr 30, 2002)

nah - i get you!  just had to reassure myself!  i've been trying to just add weight every chest workout and my progress has slowed some with chest so i'm going to switch to trying some pre-exhaust stuff.

hope i didn't sound like a beeeotch!  time to eat so maybe i did!


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## Robboe (Apr 30, 2002)

Who's a fan of pre-exhaust?

I'm not saying it's no good, but seriously, what's the difference between doing a flye before a press or a press before a flye?

You'll still be doing the same thing more or less, right?

[by the way, i have no idea whether i'm arguing for or against pre-exhaust yet, i just want to argue ]


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## Robboe (Apr 30, 2002)

Sorry for the use of politically incorrect english. Here's the correction:

"Debate"


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## nikegurl (Apr 30, 2002)

love it.  "debate".  i've always done it one way so i can't really have an opinion (as much as i love having opinions)


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## Robboe (Apr 30, 2002)

Yeah, they're like arseholes eh? 

Let's look at it from one way: Firstly, it's a principle adopted by the prick himself, Joe Weider. About 95% of the weider principles are overhyped crap, designed with "big" words in order to make money by selling to unknowing folk (for the most part anyhoo, some of his "principles" are just basic lifting ideas [ones that work of course!])

Secondly, why do something that is just gonna take away strength from your "big" lifts?

Just because you do something before hand, why does that make it better than afterwards?

Like i said before, i'm still not arguing for one side only, but there is at least one negative aspect towards them. If i think of a positive i'll note it.

Any opinions/ideas?


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## nikegurl (Apr 30, 2002)

i think i'm basically onboard with what you're saying.

only positive that comes to mind for me personally - i've never done pre-exhaust for chest so maybe that element of change will be good.  no better in theory - just a different approach.  i change rep range and exercises but never used this technique.

i still bet i'll hate using less weight....(oops - not the point!)


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## Robboe (Apr 30, 2002)

Not just chest, how about quads?

Have you ever started your leg workout with leg extentions to pre-exhaust quads?

I used to do this but my best squat gains came when i started my workout with squats. I also made my best leg gains by doing this.


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## nikegurl (Apr 30, 2002)

i did try with legs and didn't like it at all.

i liked supersets with legs though.  but even those i did AFTER my squats or presses.


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## Robboe (Apr 30, 2002)

Hmmmm i wonder if there are any more positive comments for pre-exhaust from anyone?


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## pumpit (Apr 30, 2002)

Well i think that pre-exhausting the muscle before the big lift would help to affect more fibers in the muscle and cause more growth. Doing them before or afterwards is just down to preference.


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## Josh (Apr 30, 2002)

Ow wow!  So may responses already, I don't know how to response anymore!  Thanks all.

To first answer Neil's question, my chest workout has been basically doing bench presses, flat and sometimes inclined, using barbell on a Smith machine (? that bench press unit where the barbell go on a fixed track up and down ?).  In general I would go 4 sets, with reps 6, 4, 2 and 1, adding more 2.5 kgs from set to set, with rest about 1-1.5 minutes between sets.  Then after the last set I would immediately go to failure with the weight I used for the first set (previously 6 reps), then immediately following that I do DB flyes also to failure.  This chest exercise I get from Anthony Ellis (www.skinnyguy.com).  Besides this routine, after doing it for about 3 to 6 weeks, I also do 10x10 DB inclined bench presses for about 3 weeks.  My chest is scheduled once per week.  I've followed such chest routines for almost 1 year now, but as I said, I find that the result on my chest seems not optimal.  Anyway, currently I change the routine again.  Following Oliver Wolter's X-Size program (just starting), I do 2 sets of DB flyes, both to failure, with the first set at 80% of my 1RM, and the second set at 60%.  I don't know how this would turn out yet because I've just started.

Well, what do you guys think?

Regards,
Josh


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## Neil (Apr 30, 2002)

Here is a simple chest routine that should work well-
flat BP- 3 sets of 6-8 reps
incline db press- same
flat flyes(optional)- 2 sets of 8
No need to get too complicated. Keep it simple, eat lots, and try to add more weight each week.


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## Josh (Apr 30, 2002)

Neil's simple routine is similar to what I did when I first began lifting weight (before I tried Ellis' and Wolter's routines).  But looking back now, I realized that all these routines, simple and more complicated, still do not produce much improvement to my chest (yes there is improvement, but very very minimal).  Indeed in the beginning I did not do my bench presses correctly, because I felt more tension in my triceps and not at all on my chest.  But soon after that I have correctly my form, still this brings not too much result.  I feel that I am missing something with my chest exercises, which has prohibited me from seeing great results.

I have tried to eat lots, yes I gain weight, but mostly on my stomach (that's why I said before my stomach is bigger than my chest, which discourages me even more).  I've also tried to add more weight each week, but this is also very very difficult.  My current 1RM for flat bench press is only 40 kgs (on Smith machine), which I think is not too far different from when I first started weight training.   --Josh


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## Neil (Apr 30, 2002)

Maybe you should post your entire routine so we can get an idea of what you're doing


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## Josh (Apr 30, 2002)

Okay, here are my entire rountines.  Let me start from the beginning of this year.

For 6 weeks:
Day 1:
Flat bench BB press: 6x30-32.5, 4x32.5-35, 2x35-37.5, 1x37.5-40, 8x30-32.5
Flat bench DB flyes: 10x7-9
Sit BB shoulder press: 6x17.5-20, 4x20-22.5, 2x22.5-25, 1x25-27.5, 8x17.5-20
Sit lateral raise: 6x6
Tricep pushdown: 10x50-60

Day 2:
BB squat: 6x47.5-60, 4x50-62.5, 2x52.5-65, 1x55-67.5, 10x47.5-60
Leg extension: 10x90-110
BB stiff-leg deadlift: 6x32.5-40, 4x35-42.5, 2x37.5-45, 1x40-47.5, 10x32.5-40
Hamstring curl: 6x50
Calf raises: 10x40-52.5, 8x50-62.5

Day 3:
Bent-over rows: 6x30-37.5, 4x32.5-40, 2x35-42.5, 1x37.5-45, 10x30-37.5
Underhand latbar pulldown: 10x90-100
Stand DB bicep curl: 10x10, 4x12, 4x12, 4x12
Stand reverse EZ bar bicep curl: 8x5, 8x7.5, 3x10

Then, next 3 weeks:
Day 1:
Inclined bench DB press: 10x10x10 (10 sets x 10 reps x 10)
Reverse grip bent-over row: 10x10x20

Day 2:
Leg press: 10x10x8
Calf raise: 4x10x52.5

Day 3:
Stand BB bicep curl: 10x10x10
Tricep pulldown: 4x10x4

Then, for the next 3 weeks, similar routines to the earlier 6 weeks, except:

Flat bench press is changed to inclined bench press, with maximum 35 kgs.
Shrug is added on day 3, with maximum 10x50.

After doing the above routines, I recently changed to these 3 routines done only on my 3 most recent workout days:

DB flyes: 10x8, 12x6
BB curl: 8x17.5, 10x10

DB flyes: 9x10, 12x8
BB curl: 7x20, 10x12.5

Underhand pulldown: 6x100, 10x60
Pushdown: 7x60, 10x40

I'll be doing the above routine again with increased weight in my next workout, and then I will switch to routines for lower body parts.        --Josh


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## Robboe (May 1, 2002)

How old are you?

You do realise that if you're a natural trainer that growth comes slow, right?

How much has your chest increased since you started training?


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## Robboe (May 1, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by pumpit *_
> Well i think that pre-exhausting the muscle before the big lift would help to affect more fibers in the muscle and cause more growth.



How would it differ whether you did pre-exhaustion or post-exhaustion?


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## Robboe (May 1, 2002)

Except for effecting your strength on your main lifts of course.


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## Josh (May 1, 2002)

Chicken Daddy, I'm 34 years old.  About a year ago my chest was 33 inches, today it's 33.25 inches, thus only 0.25 inch increase in one year.  Is this normal for a natural trainer?  Or is there anything I can do to gain more chest mass a bit faster (even though still slower compared to a professional trainer)?  -- Josh


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## Yanks20 (May 1, 2002)

josh,

i would move your shoulders to another day. maybe incoporate a 4 day split. you are doing all the major push exercises in one day. my push exercises are on mon, wed & fri. chest mon, shouders wed & tri's and bi's fri.


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## Robboe (May 1, 2002)

Josh, how has your bodyfat differed in this time frame?

Yanks, how will that aid his chest gains?


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## Yanks20 (May 1, 2002)

i too was wondering about his diet.

regarding moving his exercises around, in the past i have done similiar routines and my PERSONAL experience is that doing that much volume hurt my progress by putting such a large strain on the shoulders in one day. after about 4 weeks i had to switch up the routine.


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## Josh (May 1, 2002)

Yanks, I think you are refering to the routines which I took from Anthony Ellis' program (which I no longer do at this time).  The reason bench press is put together with shoulder press (and dips and tricep pushdown) is because they all work the same muscles, either as major or as synergists.  When doing bench press first, this will do mostly chest, but it will also work shoulder and tricep.  So by the time my bench press is done, my shoulder and tricep have also been worked on for some degree.  Doing shoulder press following bench press will mean continuing to work on the shoulder muscles which has already been prepared.  Same reasoning with doing pushdown afterward.

As for doing 4-day split, I am always afraid of overtraining, so I always stay with 3-day split.

What do you think?   -- Josh


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## Josh (May 1, 2002)

Chicken Daddy, it was about 23% when I first started, now is 27.5%.  Maybe you're wondering why I've gained fat instead of loosing it which I think is the goal of every bodybuilder.  When I first realized that my fat level is very high, I did follow some guidelines to lose fat, through controled diet and exercises.  But my weight kept dropping (from 144 lbs to 139 lbs even to 135 at some point), while my fat level stayed the same, so I decided to stop this fat loss cycle after about 1-2 months.  My wife suggested that maybe I should first bulk up by eating more and do mass gain exercises, and then after I gain substantial weight then I can do gradual fat loss.  Thus from that time on I simply do not measure my fat level, and I consume a bit more than I normally take, while making conscious effort to eat more meat (though I do not measure the grams and calories exactly).  Today I weight 152 lbs, but with 27+% fat and a bigger stomach than chest.

What do you suggest?  -- Josh


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## ZECH (May 1, 2002)

It's hard to believe you that you workout and have 27% bf at 152 lbs! Have I missed something? If you had not of told your weight, I would have guessed over 200 lbs to get 27%.


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## Josh (May 1, 2002)

Oh ya?  Have I been measuring my fat level incorrectly, you think?  I use caliper at 9 points to get my measurements in mm (chest, tri, bi, suprailiac, lower back, back, stomach, calf, thigh), add them up, divide by weight in lbs, then multiply 27 to that result.  Is this method accurate?  Is there any simpler and more reliable method?  -- Josh


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## ALBOB (May 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by nikegurl *_reason with chest i always want to see those weights go up.  b/c of that i've avoided pre-exhaust.



Ahh but you don't have to lose one just to gain the other, you can do both.  I know exactly now you feel when it comes to wanting to use those BIG dumbells.  So combine the two.  When you first walk into the gym and are at your strongest go straight for the dumbell rack.  Do two or three very light sets to get the muscles and joints good and warm then jump straight to your heaviest weight possible.  I'm not mentally strong enough to do what Dorian Yates can do so I'll use that weight for two max sets.  (As opposed to him just doing one.)  After you get your power fix move to your isolation movement.  (I prefer DB flyes.)  Then your final exercise can be another compound movement.  (I prefer to finish off with weighted dips.)  With this routine you get the best of both worlds.

Chicken Daddy, I never really got whether you like or don't like pre-exhaust routines.  Joe Weider aside, I think it's a very good principal.  The theory is that you weaken the target muscle first (In this case the pectorals) with an isolation movement so that when you move to a compound movement it's the target muscle that fails before the supporting muscles (Triceps).  The same with quads.  I've done the pre-exhaust you mentioned, leg-extensions before squats.  I've also done squats first.  They both work in their own way, it's more a matter of what you're goal is.


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## Robboe (May 2, 2002)

Right, so there is one positive for doing them.

But, what's to say that your chest (in this example) wouldn't get just the same stimulation in total from doing the flyes _after_ the compound? 

BTW i neither like them nor dislike them. I was just hoping to kick up a debate but no one seems to be biting the bait...


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## ALBOB (May 2, 2002)

You want a debate eh?  I need to bring my upper pecs up to par with my lower pecs, what exercises should I do?   Sorry, couldn't resist.  

I see where you're coming from with your original question and I'm not sure there's a full answer other than speculation.  So what the hell, I'll speculate for a second.  If I walk into the gym and go straight to the DB rack.  (This is theoretical so I'm not going to waste space talking about warm-ups.)  I grab the heaviest DB's I'm able to lift 6-8 good reps.  On the 8th rep, what gives out?  THEORETICALLY it's your triceps.  So, you've done one set which worked your triceps to 100% and your pecs to, let's say 80%.  (Again, theoretical.)  Now you move to DB flyes, or whatever your isolation movement of choice is.  You now work your pecs to 100% failure and your triceps to 0%.  With the pre-exhaust you start with the isolation movement and 100% pectoral and 0% triceps stimulation then move to your compound movement where you can get 100% pectoral and 80% triceps stimulation.  If the target muscle for that day is pectorals this THEORY seems better to me.


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## Robboe (May 2, 2002)

Well if we're going theoretical then we can say from your description that both cases caused the same amount of stimulation, only in the pre-exhaust method your bench strength isn't as good as it could have been and progression may be blunted so what (not necessarily true though.)


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## ALBOB (May 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Well if we're going theoretical then we can say from your description that both cases caused the same amount of stimulation



Hmmmm...........we're using different math here.  On the pre-exhaust I see two exercises aimed at pectoral stimulation, both of which are providing 100% of that stimulation.  Without pre-exhaust you have the same two exercises, one of which is providing 100% stimulation but the other is only providing 80%.  You're losing 20% of your potential target stimulation.  As far as your bench strength being lowered by using the pre-exhaust I agree, the amount of weight you can use effectively will be lowered but the amount of muscle stimulation will actually be increased by said 20%.


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## Robboe (May 2, 2002)

Ah i see, I misread. My fault.

Valid point too, although quite theoretical, as you mentioned (several times haha )

I suppose as long as you can gauge progression in some way or other then you'll be good to go. But pre-exhaust seems to play around with progression too much. This happend lots when i used to do ext. before squats.


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## ALBOB (May 2, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_But pre-exhaust seems to play around with progression too much. This happend lots when i used to do ext. before squats.



Exactly the same with me.   I love using a pre-exhaust for chest but the only time I use it for legs is when I hit a plateau of some sort.  Once, MAYBE twice, and then it's back to good old fasioned ass-to-the-floor squats before extensions.  Wanna debate the pros and cons of going ATF on squats?


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## Robboe (May 2, 2002)

I can't go "officially" ATF cause of the length on my thighs compared to the rest of my body. The mecanics just aren't there. I just go as low as possible. I wish i could though. I go ATF on front squats and the hack machine though. tres bien.


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## ALBOB (May 3, 2002)

Well damn, what are we gonna debate about then.


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## Josh (May 3, 2002)

Very interesting to read all about the pre-exhaust method, but please clarify the connection with my chest problem, which is the topic of this thread.  Are you suggesting me to do this pre-exhaust method, that this method will improve my chest more quickly?  How does this relate to the my fat level?   -- Josh


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## ALBOB (May 3, 2002)

I don't really address fat in the training forum because that's more a function of your diet.  As far as the pre-exhaust being good for your chest, it sure is good for MY chest.  Give it a try for a month or so and see how it works for you.


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## Josh (May 5, 2002)

Thanks Albob, I'll try pre-exhaust method and see how it goes.  In the mean time, if you have any advise about my fat, please follow my thread on the diet forum.  Thx.  -- Josh


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## ksiebert (May 5, 2002)

Try the power matrix.  Find out your max bench, and then do the workout with your max at the top of it.  Once you can get through that workout without your spotter touching the bar during any of the sets, you can move up to the next square.  Then....... you do that workout until you can do it without help.  It seriously works!.  Let me know if the file didn't upload..


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## Josh (May 5, 2002)

Thx for your advise, the file is okay.  But....I'm not sure how to use this system, or how to interpret or use the info in the file.  Can you help please?  Thx.  -- Josh


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## ksiebert (May 5, 2002)

The important thing is to find out what your max is for flat bench.  Whatever it is, you use it to determine where you start on the matrix.  The original power matrix can work for anybody from a max of 90lbs up to a max of like 500lbs.  I just copied this starting from a max of 240.  

You take your max, and then use the square with your max at the top of it.  Each square has a range, and your max will be in the range of the square you start with.  You can use the workout on monday and then again on friday.  On monday, use the power matrix, and then do some incline fly and pec deck.  On friday, just focus on using the matrix by it self and give yourself the weekend to rest.  It works!  If you need the lower parts of the matrix, let me know and I can type it up!


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## Josh (May 5, 2002)

Thanks for your reply.

1.  My max now is only 40 kgs (88 lbs?) -- very light, huh?  So I guess I need the lower parts of the matrix.  Could you please send it?  Thx.

2.  I understand now that the bolded range on top a square is the max weight range.  How about the 7 lines following it, in forms of x-yyy?  Is x the reps with yyy lbs of weight?  Does this mean on each square (training day) I need to do 7 sets?

-- Josh


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## ksiebert (May 6, 2002)

Exactly!

I'll work on getting you the rest of the squared


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## Josh (May 6, 2002)

Thx a lot, I really appreciate your help.  I'll try this matrix method after I finish my current routines.  -- Josh


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## BabyArnold (May 6, 2002)

Get rid of the flat bench and flat bench fly's. If you want growth focus all of you energy on Incline Bench, and Incline Fly's. Flat bench tends to work only the lower part of the Pecs, trcieps, and front delts. Try this and tell me what happens! On chest day, go in and do 5 sets of 15,12,10,8, and 6. Make sure that you bring the bar down just under your collarbones and forci back out over your chest. in the up position the bar should be directly above your nipples. At first this feels awkward trying to push it from your collarbones out above your chest, but this is the correct method to properly put the strain on all of the muscles of the upper chest region. Make sure to do weight that you can control. This is where people mess up. You have to concentrate on flexing the muscle as you press the weight. Then do flys with the same sets and reps on the incline bench. I usually include flat bench at the end of my chest routine, just for a complete blowout. This works. Trust me. Try it for two weeks and tell me your results. Also add dips to your work out at the very end to blow out your chest and triceps..


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## wheete (May 6, 2002)

The easiest part for me is chest. In fact I a toning down my chest exercises right now because I am growing too much on the chest compared to the rest of me. The key for me has been dumbbells without any doubt, I have not used barbells for my chest for a very long time. 
1. Try incline dumbbel flyes and go for a strict form, full range of motion, get the weight almost down under your torso, stretching your growing chest to the maximum!
2. Flat bench dumbbell press, keep a natural arch of your back and pin your shoulder blades to the bench to reduce delt involvement. This is much better exercise for the chest than barbell bench press since you can get the weights much further down and get a full range of motion for the chest.
3. Stand/laying cable flyes are great for your chest killer exercise.

Just my 2 cents and this has worked great for me.


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## Lightman009 (May 6, 2002)

Hey Josh, what supplements do you use?


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## Josh (May 6, 2002)

Thanks for more advises.  Now I have a number of ways to try to improve my chest.

Lightman, I ám not taking any supplements except for vitamins (C, multivits, calcium -- daily).  What do you suggest?

-- Josh


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## pumpit (May 6, 2002)

Creatine if you haven't try it yet it's pretty damn good!


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## Josh (May 6, 2002)

Pumpit, what does Creatine do?  How would this help my chest?  And how to take it (before/after exercise, in the morning, or when?)?  -- Josh


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## Josh (May 6, 2002)

Baby Arnold, it is interesting to see your advise to do bench press with bar just under the collarbones.  I was advised before that I should not do this, because this would put much work and pressure on the delts instead of the chest, and with heavier weights this can injure the delts.  Thus I was advised to always to bench presses with bar at the level of nipples or even a bit below.  -- Josh


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## CDWetzelberger (May 7, 2002)

Id say stop benching all together.   I know that advise isn't all that popular because a lot of people (stupidly) judge their overall strength with the bench.  You may not be built well for benching.  I would try weight dips, its overall a better exercise the bench. Be sure your lean slightly forward while doing them this increases the amount of chest muscle involved with the movement.  I would also second dropping flat bench flys and switch to inclines.  Or possibly, cable cross overs if you feel a second movement is needed.  If your doing the dips with enough weight and intensity then a second movement probably would not be needed anyway.


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## LittLe FraNk (May 8, 2002)

i htink some just dont lift right   u know
each movent shouldl be strict right...... keep form and you have got to se rsults i think


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## Lightman009 (May 9, 2002)

Well for one thing, without a proper protein intake you aren't going to see much improvement at all. I would definitly suggest getting a whey protein shake. However, I noticed that you talked about being too skinny and so therefore I would suggest GNC Weight Gainer, its got more then enough protein and calories to make sure you put on mass. This will definitly help bulk your chest. As for creatine, that will also maximize growth and allow your muscles to recover faster, however if you haven't even tried a protein supplement yet, you may want to just start out with that and then when you are not satisfied with it add creatine along with the protein shakes, because creatine can be kinda expensive and if you dont drink enough water you will have some health problems. SO, stick with your multivitamins, I would suggest trying MEGA MAN from GNC, its a multivitamin formulated especially for men and get some whey protein shakes going. Those two supps right there are the basis of almost every weight lifters supps.


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## Robboe (May 10, 2002)

Fuck supplements. If his diet isn't spot on then they'll do arse-all.


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## Training God (May 10, 2002)

If your here to cause trouble, don't bother cause I love deleting posts.


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## Robboe (May 11, 2002)

Powerman isn't from Canada you dumbass.

I don't think he'd appreciate you posting under his alias.


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## Training God (May 11, 2002)

How come my post was erased?
I didn't like what Chicken had to say. he seems to be picking on a lot of people.


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## Scotty the Body (May 11, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by PowermanDL *_
> How come my post was erased?
> I didn't like what Chicken had to say. he seems to be picking on a lot of people.


I delete his and any post that doesn't contribute to a thread. 
We TRY to keep things clean.


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## Lightman009 (May 11, 2002)

Well, if you dont use supplements your just gonna have a harder time trying gain by just eating your everyday diet. Unless, you are a nutritionist Josh? I'm sure your not, like the rest of us, so at least give the supps a try.


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## Josh (May 12, 2002)

Lightman, I tried weight gainer before, when I first started weight lifting.  But at that time I didn't eat much (just ordinary 3 meals a day).  I did gain weight, but not very much.  Later when I learned that I needed to eat 5-6 meals a day, I stopped taking weight gainer, just eat more and trained harder, and I gain more weight than when I took the weight gainer.  But again later I learned that weight gainer contained mostly carbs and not much protein relatively, so I thought that this was the reason I ended up with so much body fat now.

Regarding supplements, I also tried whey protein before (after I quited taking weight gainer), but later on I also quited taking it.  But this is only because of inconvinience issue.  I will consider taking it again in near future to help with my daily protein requirement.

Thanks for all your advise.  -- Josh


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## Lightman009 (May 12, 2002)

I have seen good gains on the weight gainer in addition to eating several high protein meals consisting of chicken and tuna. However, if your not careful with it you may end up putting on more body fat then you want, but I have worked around that. Yeah you should really consider taking protein again.


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## Josh (May 12, 2002)

That may be what happened to me, not being "careful" when taking the weight gainer, though I did not realize it because at that time I did not know how to measure myself.  So, could you please explain a bit more how to use weight gainer carefully?  How to incorporate weight gainer effectively with other meals, to work around getting unwanted body fat?  I ask this because I do still want to gain more weight, besides I still have some weight gainer in my stock.  -- Josh


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## Lightman009 (May 13, 2002)

First off,  weight gainer is for people that are truly "hard gainers" and just cant put on weight if their life depended on it. So you need to take that into account when using it. Start off by making a shake that has only one scoop instead of the recommended 3. Use this once a day at night after dinner, also make sure that it is after you have worked out. Try doing cardio only about twice a week, and it shouldn't be too intense, something like basketball is ideal. As for your other meals, it is recommended by many to have at least 5-6 meals a day. Since this can be quite hard, try to get 4. Have a good breakfast in the morning consisting of cereals and eggs if possible, for lunch, tuna sandwiches are great, and make sure you eat chicken as often as possible. Dinner should be your biggest meal and should be consistent. I make sure I eat at least 1-2 more servings then it feels like I can take. You will get used to eating more eventually and will be able to build your appetite up. One common misconception is that you should eat anything and everything, this is often true for real "hard gainers" and I soon learned that I was not, and that I was in fact just gaining fat and my stomach was just getting bigger and not my muscles, so you need to stay away from anything that has a lot of unsaturated fats especially cheese, just stick to high protein foods. 

Now, once you have done this for a good month and a half and are not seeing many gains or the gains have slowed down, it is then time to up the volume and start adding two scoops of weight gainer to your shakes. And trying to eat more food then you had before, adding another meal if possible.    

Oh and make sure you are lifting heavy weights in order to shock your muscles. Some exercises are best left at the lower weights just because you don't want to sacrifice proper form for higher weights. However, whenever possible increase the weight from set to set this has proven to be effective for me.

Well, that should help you gain weight, if you have any more specific questions about the subject just keep posting here.


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## Robboe (May 13, 2002)

The term "hardgainer" is thrown around a lot and without good reason. Most use it as an excuse.


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## Lightman009 (May 13, 2002)

Your probably right.


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## BabyArnold (May 14, 2002)

Josh, if you get a spotter to take the weight off of the bar for you on incline, then you will use very little of your delts. You bring the weight down to your collarbones and force it back over your chest above your nipples. You have to concentrate on using only your upper pecs. Naturally you will use your delts when you work any part of your chest, they work together naturally. The key is to concentrate on your pecs only. You can't do curls for your bi's without using you delts at least a little. Your delts help you do everything! I follow all of Arnolds pre-contest and post-contest work-outs, and I follow his instructions very closely, they work! Believe me. I went from no chest and 175 to nice chest and 205lbs of total muscle in only 2 years. Get Arnold's Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding, it's only 25.00. It works if you follow it! It is my bible.


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## Robboe (May 14, 2002)

"You have to concentrate on using only your upper pecs." <~~~~ lol.


And how dare you advertise Arnold's encyclopedia. It is absolutely bollocks as far as training is concerned (except for instructions on how to do exercises, the chest targeting aside)


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## Yanks20 (May 15, 2002)

TCD not gonna happen much, but i have to totally agree with you here!


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## Robboe (May 15, 2002)

There's a section in there saying that close grip benches work the inner chest and wide grip uses the outer chest.

A wider grip may use more chest in comparison to close grip, but there is no way in hell even gopro would say that close grip hits more inner chest.


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## BabyArnold (May 15, 2002)

Hey Chicken dude, have you ever worked out before??? I mean really??? You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. But hey, to each his own. What works for me probably won't work for you or anyone else. Never heard of concentrating on a muscle?? It's called working out. Maybe you should try it.


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## Robboe (May 15, 2002)

nah, i've never worked out.

I don't even know the difference between a barbell and a dumb...astard like your self....


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## ALBOB (May 15, 2002)

And they're off.  Around the first bend it's TCD by a wing but BabyArnold is hanging right on his heels................ 

Come on guys, can't we just say opinions are like a$$holes and leave it at that?  This argument gets SOOOOO old and doesn't help poor Josh in the least.


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## Robboe (May 15, 2002)

But i really found my use of play on words humerous. Besides, _HE_ started with the insults.

And my dad can beat up his dad.

That is all.


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## maxxlina (May 16, 2002)

Will doing pushup get me a flat chest?


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## Training God (May 16, 2002)

yes.


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## Robboe (May 16, 2002)

Eh?!


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## ALBOB (May 16, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Eh?!



Was thinking exactly the same thing.   Push up will give you a very nice chest.........................if you do them with an elephant sitting on your back.


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## Training God (May 16, 2002)

Eh what?
Last I remembered the chest is not built in lumps.
So doing push ups will make for a flat chest.


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## Robboe (May 16, 2002)

What is a "flat" chest?


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## ALBOB (May 16, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> What is a "flat" chest?


I'm still agreeing with TDC here, I want one that people can see around a corner five seconds before I get there.


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## Training God (May 16, 2002)

one that's not lumpy.


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## Yanks20 (May 16, 2002)

the only arguement that your gonna get out of TCD is when it is referring to INCLINES. he has his stance and will not budge, we all know that.

what i'm trying to figure out is how you are saying that doing push-ups will give you a flat chest!


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## Training God (May 16, 2002)

Because your body is not under the direct gravitational line of pull the pectorals major and the different angles of fibres will be recruited so that the whole chest is used. This means that a even distribution of weight is spread throughout so that someone who does enough will eventually have a flat chest and not a lumpy one.


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## Snake_Eyes (May 16, 2002)

Um, that makes absolutely *no* sense whatsoever.

Where are you getting your info?


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## Yanks20 (May 16, 2002)

ok first, everyone is genetically structured different. the petoral major is one muscle and grows accordingly to the genetic makeup of the individual. 

i think what your trying to say is that you think the chest itself will be symetrical in build. well, if you can do that you are a better man than me. in general i would say push-ups are a good exercise but they are not going to make you grow to your fullest potential. i would use them maybe as a finishing move.

as for the lumpy statement, i don't know anyone who has a lumpy chest!


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## Robboe (May 16, 2002)

I actually did some slight incline flyes on tuesday.

First snip of incline for me for about 11 months. quite refreshing.


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## Yanks20 (May 16, 2002)

Damm, so how did they make you feel afterwards?


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## Training God (May 16, 2002)

I get my source of info from ABC Bodybuilding.com.
I guess they gave some bad info.
Sorry.


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## Yanks20 (May 16, 2002)

power, what does your current chest workout look like?


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## Training God (May 16, 2002)

100 push ups
1 set of decline bench
2 sets of cable cross overs

12 reps.


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## Yanks20 (May 16, 2002)

ok first things first, scrap the push-ups.

try something like this:

flat bench - 1 warm up set - 3 working set
incline bench - 3 working sets
DB Flies or Peck Deck - 3 working sets
Declines - 2 burn out sets


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## Training God (May 16, 2002)

Will do. Thanks Yanks.


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## Yanks20 (May 16, 2002)

not a problem!


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## Robboe (May 16, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by Yanks20 *_
> Damm, so how did they make you feel afterwards?



Not bad actually. The incline was only very slight though. I jammed a bit of wood in the setting of the bench.

On the flat flyes i was getting a slight inkling in my left shoulder. Someone on WBB suggested doing the flyes on a slight incline and i felt no shoulder pain. I'll do them again next week i think.

And hey, did anyone else find the phrase "thanks yanks" hilarious too, or was it just me?


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## Scotty the Body (May 16, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> And hey, did anyone else find the phrase "thanks yanks" hilarious too, or was it just me?


You should see some of the babes he's posting in the pic forum, gives his name meaning there to!! lol


Damn TCD, I can't get over you doing Inclines.


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## Robboe (May 16, 2002)

Yeah man, i know.

I felt like such a jockey.

What's worse than actually doing them is the fact that i'll probably do them _again_ next week!


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## Scotty the Body (May 16, 2002)

Hehehe, this reminds me of Star Wars --- Chickkkken, come over to the Dark Side!!!!


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## Robboe (May 16, 2002)

Scotty, I am your father.


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## Scotty the Body (May 16, 2002)

No Oo Oo


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## Yanks20 (May 17, 2002)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy 
Not bad actually. The incline was only very slight though. I jammed a bit of wood in the setting of the bench. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's great! It doesn't matter that it was only a slight incline it is the fact that you actually tried them. As you can see i have also been doing weighted dips at the end of my chest day. Have to try something new every once in a while !  

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy 
What's worse than actually doing them is the fact that i'll probably do them again next week!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stay with it as long as you can!


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## Robboe (May 17, 2002)

Oh, i've done them before man, but i just have never done anything inclined for about 11 months or so.


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## Yanks20 (May 17, 2002)

i know you have stated so in the past! i was just saying how i'm surprised you actually tried them again. 

man my shoulders still hurt!


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## Robboe (May 17, 2002)

I'd stronger on flat DB flyes and would have done them usually, but since they aggrivate my shoulder i figured what the hell.


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## Yanks20 (May 17, 2002)

and like you said they probably were not as bad as you thought it was going to be


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## Robboe (May 17, 2002)

hehe. I've never said they were "bad". Only that inclined movements were inferior to flat or slightly declined movements cause they involve too much shoulder recruitment. (Not to mention the fact that i think you're wasting your time if you think you're hitting your upper chest using them.)


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## Yanks20 (May 17, 2002)

not going there today


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## Robboe (May 17, 2002)

Aww...


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## Yanks20 (May 17, 2002)

shucks BATMAN!


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## BabyArnold (May 17, 2002)

I noticed that you had to go out and try the incline there Chicken Guy.


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## BabyArnold (May 17, 2002)

Too much shoulders huh??? Sounds like you weren't concentrating on that upper chest area!?!?!?!?HAHAHAHAHA...


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## Robboe (May 17, 2002)

What are you blabbering on about?

A muscle either contracts or it doesn't. It doesn't matter whether it's on an incline or not. I just feel more pectroal benefit from non-inclined movements.

I am not totally anti-incline, although i do dislike them for the most part.

I am, however, against them as far as hitting the "upper" chest goes. Simple as that.


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## Neil (May 17, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by PowermanDL *_
> I get my source of info from ABC Bodybuilding.com.



ouch!
You shouldn't spend too much time around there if you don't want your mind cluttered with bogus lifting info.


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## LittLe FraNk (May 20, 2002)

omg omg omg


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## jagsmahal (Jun 14, 2004)

*Chest toning*

Hi All,

I weight 224lbs and am 6'4".  I have had trouble toning my chest all these years.  I admit that the diet is the first place to start but last time I got down to 190lbs was through running 3.5 miles everyday in about 25mins.
What is the best toning exercise for the chest??

Regards


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