# Creatine + (dietary) nitrate (betaine) = no improvement over creatine



## Arnold (Jul 19, 2011)

*Creatine + (dietary) nitrate (betaine) = no improvement over creatine*
_by Anthony Robert_

Betaine is derived from beets, a nitrate-rich food that has been shown to improve exercise performance. Creatine is perhaps the world’s most exhaustively studied nutritional supplement, and boasts unparalleled safety and efficacy. Betaine is well known to be a methyl donor to guanidinoacetate (through methionine) that can aid in the synthesis of creatine in muscle. Combining betaine & creatine in a nutritional supplement would appear to be a no-brainer. We often hope for synergy between ingredients (1 + 1 = 3), but often we’ll settle for an additive effect (1 + 1 = 2).

Unfortunately, when we add betaine to creatine, what we get is the same exact results as the creatine alone. That’s right…when you combine creatine plus a nitrate source, you don’t get better results than simply taking the creatine alone. Even more interesting is the fact that this study, one of the few on Betaine supplementation that wasn’t funded by someone selling it, shows that the dietary nitrate doesn’t do anything on it’s own (paradoxically, another study on Betaine, which was previously thought to increase Nitric Oxide levels, actually didn’t).

Here’s the Creatine + Betaine study:



> Amino Acids. 2011 Jul 9. [Epub ahead of print]
> 
> *    Creatine but not betaine supplementation increases muscle phosphorylcreatine content and strength performance.*
> 
> ...


source


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## OrbitNutrition (Jul 19, 2011)

hhmm interesting read.


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## ak1951 (Feb 24, 2013)

Welllll.... I make a kickapoo joy juice concoction PWO that I aim for muscul pump more than energy that has 3gr. betaine, citrulline, CEE, GPLC, GMS, Taurine and D-Aspartic. PWO I take two Python 300mg a blend of Yohimbe, Ginseng and Samento bark, (1g LongJack and .5 Beta Ecydesterone (x2 after dinner). My first shake has about 20 pure form amino's and 50g Soy SPI protein and a hand full of vitamins. I do the shake x4 in the day. There is some other stuff but anyway...since I do not use the Bentaine looking for a CEE result or to replace CEE I wonder if anyone made mention of the Nitrate pump factor...or if they felt any?


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## ak1951 (Feb 24, 2013)

ak1951 said:


> Welllll.... I make a kickapoo joy juice concoction PWO that I aim for muscul pump more than energy that has 3gr. betaine, citrulline, CEE, GPLC, GMS, Taurine and D-Aspartic. PWO I take two Python 300mg a blend of Yohimbe, Ginseng and Samento bark, (1g LongJack and .5 Beta Ecydesterone (x2 after dinner). My first shake has about 20 pure form amino's and 50g Soy SPI protein and a hand full of vitamins. I do the shake x4 in the day. There is some other stuff but anyway...since I do not use the Bentaine looking for a CEE result or to replace CEE I wonder if anyone made mention of the Nitrate pump factor...or if they felt any?



*FYI: Betaine (trimethylglycine)* TMG is what I use) functions very closely with choline,  folic acid, vitamin B12, and a form of the amino acid methionine known as S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe).[SUP]1[/SUP] [SUP] 2[/SUP] All of these compounds function as ?methyl donors.? They carry and donate methyl molecules to facilitate necessary chemical processes. The donation of methyl groups by betaine is very important to proper liver function, cellular replication, and detoxification reactions. Betaine also plays a role in the manufacture of carnitine and serves to protect the kidneys from damage.[SUP]3[/SUP] Betaine is closely related to choline. The difference is that choline (tetramethylglycine) has four methyl groups attached to it. When choline donates one of these groups to another molecule, it becomes betaine (trimethylglycine). If betaine donates one of its methyl groups, then it becomes dimethylglycine.

  [h=3]Where is it found?[/h] Dietary sources of betaine include fish, beets, and legumes. Betaine is most widely available as betaine hydrochloride (betaine-HCl), but that form is used primarily as a source of hydrochloric acid for people with hypochlorhydria (low stomach acid). The forms used specifically to provide betaine are betaine citrate and betaine aspartate. These forms have also been used to improve liver function.


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## WeekendWarrior (Feb 25, 2013)

The dosing and duration is the problem. 2g of beta-alanine a day for 10 days is not a high enough dose to see results for that short of a time. The average dose of beta-alanine is 3g so they 66% of the average dose. The creatine was given in 20g doses, which is a high enough dose to see results in just 10 days. The average dose of creatine is 5g, so they used a 400% dose. Why would you underdose the beta-alanine and mega dose creatine and expect accurate results?


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## WeekendWarrior (Feb 25, 2013)

Should have read that more carefully, thought it said beta-alanine, not betaine.


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## bjg (Feb 25, 2013)

if you care about your health then long term use of creatine is not good at all. and when i say long term i mean years.
+ creatine and most of the supplements are mostly bullshit and overrated...you can get all what you want from  natural food without fucking up your kidneys and liver. 
but then again if you are into gear then you basically don't care about your health much so you can allow yourself to take anything. it all depends on what you want out of bodybuilding


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## ak1951 (Feb 27, 2013)

*20g would kill me*



WeekendWarrior said:


> The dosing and duration is the problem. 2g of beta-alanine a day for 10 days is not a high enough dose to see results for that short of a time. The average dose of beta-alanine is 3g so they 66% of the average dose. The creatine was given in 20g doses, which is a high enough dose to see results in just 10 days. The average dose of creatine is 5g, so they used a 400% dose. Why would you underdose the beta-alanine and mega dose creatine and expect accurate results?



I can stand around 15 to 20 a day of creatine but any more and my guts go crazy. Makes for a hard night and if you run out of 
TP it really sucks! I am using 4 gr. of the* betaine in my PWO juice. Can't really say anything about the results cuz I use so much other stuff but I do get a great pump and no crash.  *I am going to try the kre-alkalyn powder at 4 mg (twice what they say to use) a day and hope it works as well as the claims. It sure sounds great!


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## BrooklynMuscle (Mar 4, 2013)

Interesting


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## ak1951 (Mar 5, 2013)

*after a week...*



ak1951 said:


> I can stand around 15 to 20 a day of creatine but any more and my guts go crazy. Makes for a hard night and if you run out of
> TP it really sucks! I am using 4 gr. of the* betaine in my PWO juice. Can't really say anything about the results cuz I use so much other stuff but I do get a great pump and no crash.  *I am going to try the kre-alkalyn powder at 4 mg (twice what they say to use) a day and hope it works as well as the claims. It sure sounds great!



I am using 6g in my PWO and I have to say I think it is helping. Like I say there is a lot of other stuff in there but no sugar and I am hitting it harder than I have in many years. Great long lasting pumps. I would say to anyone "give betaine a try"...


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## PitbullRescue (Mar 5, 2013)

Interesting


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