# Choosing a religion as a bodybuilder



## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

_As an aspiring bodybuilder I am having conflicting thoughts about religion.  I thought about buddhism but Buddha seems sort of fat, don´t even get me started on Gandhi. Maybe the right way to go is christianity, Jesus sure can handle a cutting phase. 
So, what do you think?  _


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## Pepper (Sep 20, 2004)

Jesus was into fasting...he did 40 days and 40 nights. That's not healthy.


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 20, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _As an aspiring bodybuilder I am having conflicting thoughts about religion.  I thought about buddhism but Buddha seems sort of fat, don´t even get me started on Gandhi. Maybe the right way to go is christianity, Jesus sure can handle a cutting phase.
> So, what do you think?  _


As a fellow perspiring bodybuilder, I'd suggest Satanism. It's done wonders for me and Marylin Manson.


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## Spitfire (Sep 20, 2004)

Im atheist


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 20, 2004)

Spitfire said:
			
		

> Im atheist


Don't you worry about burning in hell for all eternity?


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## maniclion (Sep 20, 2004)

Greek Mythology- with Gods built like Zeus and heroes like Hercules, Atlas no other religion compares.


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## Pepper (Sep 20, 2004)

Spitfire said:
			
		

> Im atheist


I don't want to start a religious debate..really, I don't..but I really do not understand how anyone could be an athiest. (no, let's not debate this..please)


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## bulletproof1 (Sep 20, 2004)

Pepper said:
			
		

> I don't want to start a religious debate..really, I don't..but I really do not understand how anyone could be an athiest. (no, let's not debate this..please)



then you probably shouldnt have said you dont understand it. i hate religious threads ..... pointless.


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## Pepper (Sep 20, 2004)

bulletproof1 said:
			
		

> then you probably shouldnt have said you dont understand it. i hate religious threads ..... pointless.


agreed on both points.

Statement withdrawn


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

_Greek mythology seems good *Manic*. _


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

Spitfire said:
			
		

> Im atheist


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## maniclion (Sep 20, 2004)

Norse Mythology with Thor


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## Minotaur (Sep 20, 2004)

maniclion said:
			
		

> Greek Mythology- with Gods built like Zeus and heroes like Hercules, Atlas no other religion compares.



There ya go!

But if we're talking living religions, can't beat Hinduism.  Read up on Hanuman, the monkey god.  Patron of wrestlers and athletes.  Was once asked to go to a mountain to bring a special herb back, couldn't find the herb, so he brought the whole mountain back.

http://www.hindunet.org/god/Gods/hanuman/


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 20, 2004)

Minotaur said:
			
		

> There ya go!
> 
> But if we're talking living religions, can't beat Hinduism.  Read up on Hanuman, the monkey god.  Patron of wrestlers and athletes.  Was once asked to go to a mountain to bring a special herb back, couldn't find the herb, so he brought the whole mountain back.
> 
> http://www.hindunet.org/god/Gods/hanuman/


I love Hanuman, wasn't he the one who faught with this huge staff?  And he had some kind of pig and devil friends, right?  Or am I mixing my shit up?


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

_Give us the history of the minotaur as well. He looks kind of gay in your signature though. _


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 20, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Give us the history of the minotaur as well. He looks kind of gay in your signature though. _


Funny you should say that, because...........


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## maniclion (Sep 20, 2004)

Hanuman's cool too.


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## Arnold (Sep 20, 2004)

Pepper said:
			
		

> ..but I really do not understand how anyone could be an athiest.



no debate Pepper, but I feel exactly the same way about being a christian, I honestly do not understand how anyone can believe in that religeon. 

as far as the person that said are you worried about burning in hell, does this mean the millions of people around the world that practice other religeons are all going to hell? get real.


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## Arnold (Sep 20, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _I thought about buddhism but Buddha seems sort of fat _



great religeon, I studied it in college, you should buy a book and read about it.


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## Spitfire (Sep 20, 2004)

MaxMirkin said:
			
		

> Don't you worry about burning in hell for all eternity?


Ummmmm, I live in florida, I already do.
And if you were serious, then No, I dont.


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> great religeon, I studied it in college, you should buy a book and read about it.


_Yes it is. I never really studied it but I read a few books about it. 
I still don´t understand the difference between nihilism and buddhism. _


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 20, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> no debate Pepper, but I feel exactly the same way about being a christian, I honestly do not understand how anyone can believe in that religeon.
> 
> as far as the person that said are you worried about burning in hell, does this mean the millions of people around the world that practice other religeons are all going to hell? get real.


I was that person, and it was a joke. I'm very much an atheist.


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## Spitfire (Sep 20, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> great religion, I studied it in college, you should buy a book and read about it.


As have I, and it is really useful as a path or method of living, but is not realistic


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 20, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _
> I still don´t understand the difference between nihilism and buddhism. _


  me neither


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## Arnold (Sep 20, 2004)

why do you feel the need to start practicing a religeon anyway? 

one of my favorite quotes:

_"Religeon is a crutch for weak minded people that find strength in numbers." _ 
- Jesse Ventura


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> why do you feel the need to start practicing a religeon anyway?


_I don´t, it is a humorous thread. I am an atheist, that is what we do. _


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 20, 2004)

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. "


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## pmech (Sep 20, 2004)

Recent quote off of a religous sign outside their place of worship

"Good minus God equals 0"

If that doesnt say something about a religion I dont know what will.


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## Pepper (Sep 20, 2004)

This thread has gone too far. I feel sorry for some of you. seriously.


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## Minotaur (Sep 20, 2004)

MaxMirkin said:
			
		

> I love Hanuman, wasn't he the one who faught with this huge staff?  And he had some kind of pig and devil friends, right?  Or am I mixing my shit up?



Mm, you might be mixing shit up.  Hanuman was intensely devoted to Lord Rama, and fought to rescue Sita (Rama's wife) when she was kidnapped by the king of Lanka.


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## Spitfire (Sep 20, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _I don´t, it is a humorous thread. I am an atheist, that is what we do. _


LOL


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## Arnold (Sep 20, 2004)

Pepper said:
			
		

> I feel sorry for some of you. seriously.



thanks, please pray for me! 


my mom does, and I just laugh at her.


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## Spitfire (Sep 20, 2004)

Thats Greek to me


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## Minotaur (Sep 20, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Give us the history of the minotaur as well. He looks kind of gay in your signature though. _



He's my alter-ego, so I guess he's gay too.    

The Minotaur was half man and half bull, born of the lustful union between Queen Pasiphae of Crete and a snow white bull that Poseidon sent to the island.  The bull was supposed to be sacrificed to Poseidon, but Minos the king thought the bull was too beautiful to kill.

Poseidon was so pissed off he made the queen have lust for the bull, so she mated with it.  Thus was born the Minotaur.  The word comes from Greek, minotauros (meeno-towros), meaning Minos's bull.


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## Arnold (Sep 20, 2004)

my mom told me that I am going to go to hell if I do not accept Jesus Christ as my savior, I told her that I was not going to hell because I do not believe that it exists.


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## pumpthatiron (Sep 20, 2004)

"why do you feel the need to start practicing a religeon anyway?"
do u agree that everything in this world has a creator?  like let's say a bench press... there is a factory that creates them.  And everything that is created comes with a manual to explain how to use it.  Doesn't it just makes sense that someone created us?  i'm a devout muslim and i believe that God created us all and the religion or a book in my case the Quran is a manual to show people how to live their life.  EVERY aspect of life is in the Quran.  If you guys wanna talk more, let me know, we'll talk...


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 20, 2004)

Minotaur said:
			
		

> Mm, you might be mixing shit up.  Hanuman was intensely devoted to Lord Rama, and fought to rescue Sita (Rama's wife) when she was kidnapped by the king of Lanka.


You're right.  Had it confused with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West


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## redspy (Sep 20, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _As an aspiring bodybuilder I am having conflicting thoughts about religion. I thought about buddhism but Buddha seems sort of fat, don´t even get me started on Gandhi. Maybe the right way to go is christianity, Jesus sure can handle a cutting phase. _
> _So, what do you think?  _


Speaking as an atheist I say just believe in yourself and big muscles are sure to follow.


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

Pepper said:
			
		

> This thread has gone too far. I feel sorry for some of you. seriously.


_Please don´t, it is good. You will know it someday. 
Come to the dark side, we have cookies. _


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## redspy (Sep 20, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Please don´t, it is good. You will know it someday. _
> _Come to the dark side, we have cookies. _


High protein cookies I hope.


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## Arnold (Sep 20, 2004)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> "why do you feel the need to start practicing a religeon anyway?"
> do u agree that everything in this world has a creator?  like let's say a bench press... there is a factory that creates them.  And everything that is created comes with a manual to explain how to use it.  Doesn't it just makes sense that someone created us?  i'm a devout muslim and i believe that God created us all and the religion or a book in my case the Quran is a manual to show people how to live their life.  EVERY aspect of life is in the Quran.  If you guys wanna talk more, let me know, we'll talk...



yup I believe that something created this universe, but no man or religeon has the answers, and no man "speaks to god", so I have no reason to follow some religeon that other "men" made up, to me that is just plain silly.

I never said I was an athiest, nor did I say whether I believe, or do not belive, in a "god".


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> my mom told me that I am going to go to hell if I do not accept Jesus Christ as my savior, I told her that I was not going to hell because I do not believe that it exists.


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

redspy said:
			
		

> Speaking as an atheist I say just believe in yourself and big muscles are sure to follow.


_If I believe in me but I am crazy and I start thinking that I am God, can I still be an atheist? _


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 20, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Please don´t, it is good. You will know it someday.
> Come to the dark side, we have cookies. _


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## maniclion (Sep 20, 2004)

B.I.B.L.E - Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth 


If only these religions actually did what they stand for, but the reality is that they only end up forming a mob mentality and start flexing their power on others.  All this holier than thou attitude turns me away from them, hell even some Buddhists are guilty of having supreme thoughts.


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

_I wonder if someone after achieving adult age change their mind about religion? _


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 20, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _I wonder if someone after achieving adult age change their mind about religion? _


Yes, my mom suddenly found it after we moved here from Russia.  The woman is deeply confused.


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## Minotaur (Sep 20, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _I wonder if someone after achieving adult age change their mind about religion? _



Yeah, I've all but completely thrown it out the window.  I was raised Roman Catholic and converted to Eastern Orthodox.  But the Eastern Orthodox are only marginally better than the Roman Catholic Church with all the drivel they spout.

More and more I'm becoming a Deist, someone who believes in a God as a primal force in the universe, but not interfering in or judging the actions of mankind.


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

Minotaur said:
			
		

> Yeah, I've all but completely thrown it out the window.  I was raised Roman Catholic and converted to Eastern Orthodox.  But the Eastern Orthodox are only marginally better than the Roman Catholic Church with all the drivel they spout.
> 
> More and more I'm becoming a Deist, someone who believes in a God as a primal force in the universe, but not interfering in or judging the actions of mankind.


_What is it like to be gay and have religious life in the catholic church? Was that the reason to change? If that is asking too much, don´t answer it, I understand.  _


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 20, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _What is it like to be gay and have religious life in the catholic church?_


Why not ask the priests?


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## Arnold (Sep 20, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _I wonder if someone after achieving adult age change their mind about religeon? _



I think it happens all of the time, you get old and weak, and accept that you will die soon, so you find comfort in religeon.


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

MaxMirkin said:
			
		

> Why not ask the priests?


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## Minotaur (Sep 20, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _What is it like to be gay and have religious life in the catholic church? Was that the reason to change? If that is asking too much, don´t answer it, I understand.  _



Not a problem to answer...

When I was still RC, I hadn't accepted being gay.  In fact, I was pretty homophobic.  I just couldn't or wouldn't accept being gay.  I converted because I couldn't deal with the legalism and judgementalism of the RCC, as I saw it.  It lost its compassion.  For a while I was happy with the EOC, but I started to realize that they were not much different than the RCC.  I gradually fell away from going to church altogether.

It was years later, being away from church, that I finally admitted and accepted being gay.  I have friends (straight marrieds) from my former Orthodox parish who completely accept and reconcile being gay with being Christian.  They don't understand all the hub-bub the churches make over it.

I just feel completely betrayed by some of the writings of the leading bishops against gays.  For example, the Patriarch of Moscow has released a statement cutting off all ties with the American Episcopal Church over the consecration of Bishop Robinson who is openly gay and partnered.  Huh! Christian love and brotherhood!


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## pumpthatiron (Sep 20, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> yup I believe that something created this universe, but no man or religeon has the answers, and no man "speaks to god", so I have no reason to follow some religeon that other "men" made up, to me that is just plain silly.
> 
> I never said I was an athiest, nor did I say whether I believe, or do not believe, in a "god".


Maybe you have a misconception... Who speaks to god?


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## Minotaur (Sep 20, 2004)

MaxMirkin said:
			
		

> Why not ask the priests?



Ouch!


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> I think it happens all of the time, you get old and weak, and accept that you will die soon, so you find comfort in religeon.


_Have you ever prayed when you were really sick or needed help from something?
I hope I never do that. _


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## Arnold (Sep 20, 2004)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> Maybe you have a misconception... Who speaks to god?



ummm...I thought the men that wrote the bible spoke the words of god, did they not? god told them what to write?

and as far as Catholics doesn't the pope supposedly speak to god daily or maybe just weekly? LOL


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## Minotaur (Sep 20, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> I think it happens all of the time, you get old and weak, and accept that you will die soon, so you find comfort in religeon.



Like Bill Cosby said about his mother and his children...

"Come here my little precious darlings, come give Grandmommy a kiss.  *smooch* *smooch* *smooch*  Grandmommy just loves you so much!"

"This is NOT the woman I grew up with.  This is an old person now, who's trying to get into Heaven!"

Same with my mother (may her soul rest in peace)... towards the end of her life, her house looked like the Vatican with all the rosaries, saints, prayer cards and what have you.  This was the woman that thought nothing of picking up a can of tomatoes (Italian style, peeled and crushed, 28 oz.) to hurl at my father, or that would come at me with the back of her hand ready to bitchslap me to the other side of Christmas.


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> doesn't the pope supposedly speak to god daily or maybe just weekly? LOL


_Jesus was the only one I guess. He is one son of a God. _


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## maniclion (Sep 20, 2004)

What if an alien species created us as an experiment?  What if they came to Earth and planted the cells that they knew would evolve into others species, when they didn't like the first outcome, Dinosaurs, they wiped the slate clean and tried again with the mammals.

See, there are infinite what if's and we will never be able to know.  The only thing we can do is try to make sure our species survives and that our planet survives so that we can become the alien species that builds a whole new wolrd on another planet in another Galaxy.


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## Arnold (Sep 20, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Jesus was the only one I guess. He is one son of a God. _



What? Jesus wrote the bible? that is not what I remember learning?


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

Minotaur said:
			
		

> Not a problem to answer...
> 
> When I was still RC, I hadn't accepted being gay.  In fact, I was pretty homophobic.  I just couldn't or wouldn't accept being gay.  I converted because I couldn't deal with the legalism and judgementalism of the RCC, as I saw it.  It lost its compassion.  For a while I was happy with the EOC, but I started to realize that they were not much different than the RCC.  I gradually fell away from going to church altogether.
> 
> ...



_Good for you. I still don´t understand how a men can be gay with a lot of beautiful women but that is a subject for another thread. 
Maybe you could "explain" to my friend *Var* when he comes online. _


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## Arnold (Sep 20, 2004)

maniclion said:
			
		

> What if an alien species created us as an experiment?  What if they came to Earth and planted the cells that they knew would evolve into others species, when they didn't like the first outcome, Dinosaurs, they wiped the slate clean and tried again with the mammals.
> 
> See, there are infinite what if's and we will never be able to know.  The only thing we can do is try to make sure our species survives and that our planet survives so that we can become the alien species that builds a whole new wolrd on another planet in another Galaxy.



exactly, that is just it *NOBODY* knows!

we all have the same questions, and we would all like to know, some of us decide to put our faith in a religeon for the answers, others (like me) just leave it at that, I do not know, and no one else does....I will find out when I die just like everyone else does/will.


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> What? Jesus wrote the bible? that is not what I remember learning?


_No. *Talked* to the almighty. _


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## Arnold (Sep 20, 2004)

whatever, it's all silly mumbo jumbo anyway.


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> whatever, it's all silly mumbo jumbo anyway.


_I guess God talked pretty slow. They wrote it in stones.  
"First.. I said first c-o-m-m-a-n-d-m-e-n-t.. "_


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## maniclion (Sep 20, 2004)

All Hail Xummmbadhdie from the Wlajuo))))))))))))------- Galaxy the Creator of Earth Dwelling Creatures


Or you can Worship the Jedi Principles.

I think tommorow I will take up Navajo ritual and go on a trip to the spirit world, I will be placing my prescription at the local drugstore monthly.


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 20, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Good for you. I still don´t understand how a men can be gay with a lot of beautiful women but that is a subject for another thread.
> Maybe you could "explain" to my friend *Var* when he comes online. _


I think, by now, Var could teach Minotaur a thing or two about being gay.


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## pmech (Sep 20, 2004)

Maybe we all live in a Locker?


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

pmech said:
			
		

> Maybe we all live in a Locker?


_MIB ? _


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## pumpthatiron (Sep 20, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> ummm...I thought the men that wrote the bible spoke the words of god, did they not? god told them what to write?
> 
> and as far as Catholics doesn't the pope supposedly speak to god daily or maybe just weekly? LOL


robert i wouldn't know about that cuz i'm not christian.. what's wrong with Islam?


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## Stickboy (Sep 20, 2004)

The words in the bible were "inspired" by God.

IF you believe Christ was the son of God, then the only true church descended from Christ would be the Catholic Church.  Peter was the first pope.  As with anything man touches, it tends to be corrupted at some points.  That sin, however, belongs to the individual(s) commiting the sin - not the Church itself.  That's like saying a Hospital is corrupt and immoral because a doctor decided to rape a women that was knocked out.

However, to say all priests are gay would be hyperbole.  It's always amazed me how quick people are to piss on religion.  The question was what would be a good body builder religion, not...let's offend everyone who's religious on this forum. 

Hey, let's start attacking everything, since obviously it's not only endorsed, but apparently encouraged.

How many Gays can we piss off later?  
How many minorities?  
How many of you minorities would enjoy seeing post that belittle your race?   

Come on, why stop at religion when there are so many other hate mongering topics to cover.


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## OceanDude (Sep 20, 2004)

Pepper, don't throw your pearls to the swine. Many here have chosen to be single dimensional kinds of creatures and focus only on the physical ("body" building) and pay little or no attention to the Intellect or the Spirit. There are different kingdoms (even below the animals) and some will choose to cast off their inheritance and invitations to higher callings. That sadness and loss will be overcome by the wonderous achievement of those lesser among us who will prevail to the higher calling with encouragement.

OD

P.S. Self sacrifice and persistence are strong and necessary attributes of body building and Christianty but not necessarily sufficient to insure success in the latter.


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## pumpthatiron (Sep 20, 2004)

and i ask again, what's wrong with Islam?


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## busyLivin (Sep 20, 2004)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> and i ask again, what's wrong with Islam?


when did anyone say anything was wrong with islam?


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## pumpthatiron (Sep 20, 2004)

naw i was asking robert cuz he was talking about how religions are made up by men and stuff


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## Arnold (Sep 20, 2004)

do I appear to be a religeon guru? 

I have studied christianity, buddhism, and taoism, that is about it.

and *OceanDude*, it is possible to be intellectual and spiritual without believing/following any religeons.


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## Stickboy (Sep 20, 2004)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> and i ask again, what's wrong with Islam?



Nothing, when it's actual Islam.   What you see in the Middle East is an extremist view of it, and it has been corrupted to the point of breeding terrorist.  

Not all muslims are terrorists, just as not all christians go around blowing up abortion clinics.  Both religions tell people not to kill each other.  People in any religion seem to pick and choose parts of it, instead of seeing the forest from the trees.

Most muslims I know are very tolerant and abide by their faith.  Note that I don't know any muslims in the US.  The only one's I've met were when I was stationed in the Middle East.  (Saudi Arabia).


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## pumpthatiron (Sep 20, 2004)

robert, you should look into Islam more... Doesn't it make sense to study some more religions before you actually give up on the thing as a whole? Stickboy, it's because of Islam that i help people out whenever they need it, even if that means i have to stay up an extra 3 hours finishing my work. It's because of Islam that I try my hardest not to lie. It's because of Islam that I'm nice to everyone. It's because of Islam that I wouldn't cheat on a test. It's because of Islam that I wouldn't be a hypocrite or gossip. You should really take a look at it before like you look at the extremists and stuff. These extremists don't have any justification to do what they are doing. They can't prove from the Quran or the life of Prophet Muhammad that what they are doing is right. Infact, it strictly forbids killing in the Quran. It says that if you kill one person, it's like you're killing the whole mankind.


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## Arnold (Sep 20, 2004)

thanks, but I do not want or need religeon in my life, again this does not mean I am not spiritual or do not believe in a higher being.


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## busyLivin (Sep 20, 2004)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> Stickboy, it's because of Islam that i help people out whenever they need it, even if that means i have to stay up an extra 3 hours finishing my work. It's because of Islam that I try my hardest not to lie. It's because of Islam that I'm nice to everyone. It's because of Islam that I wouldn't cheat on a test. It's because of Islam that I wouldn't be a hypocrite or gossip.



I can say the same thing about my Christian faith... that doesn't make it right for everyone.


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## OceanDude (Sep 20, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> I think it happens all of the time, you get old and weak, and accept that you will die soon, so you find comfort in religeon.



I think similar things about guys who suddenly petition God when a beautiful woman walks into the gym. It's the same prayer they make when they go for that new one rep max bench press; "Oh God please". Surely there are "comforts" to be sought after at a much younger age but I doubt they are what conventionally would be called orthodox religions. But I also imagine that few in the gym are really aethesists. After all, anyone who believes in steroids and NO2 kinds of suppliments must have a lot of faith to think they will somehow get to be like an Arnold or a Ronnie given the body "God" stuck them in. 

OD


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## OceanDude (Sep 20, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> do I appear to be a religeon guru?
> 
> I have studied christianity, buddhism, and taoism, that is about it.
> 
> and *OceanDude*, it is possible to be intellectual and spiritual without believing/following any religeons.



We are physical, intellectual and spiritual beings at birth. It is therefor possible to be spiritual without "following" any religions simply because our grater nature is spiritual irrespective of what we choose to believe, follow or acknowledge. In fact as children before we have the developed intellect to discern religons and specific faiths this is precisely the case that makes the answer to your question "yes". But there are also great lies propegated by plausable liers through false religions that can nulify the attainment of our greater development. And of course there are a great many who wander through life chaotically in Spirit and Intellect and are useless in imparting anykind of proactive or helpful contribution to Creation.

OD


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

_I think that we as atheist end up with a better and deep vision of life. Specially because we don´t accept the theories that were given to us, so we look for something new and exciting everyday to give us the real meaning of life. _


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## maniclion (Sep 20, 2004)

OceanDude said:
			
		

> Pepper, don't throw your pearls to the swine. Many here have chosen to be single dimensional kinds of creatures and focus only on the physical ("body" building) and pay little or no attention to the Intellect or the Spirit. There are different kingdoms (even below the animals) and some will choose to cast off their inheritance and invitations to higher callings. That sadness and loss will be overcome by the wonderous achievement of those lesser among us who will prevail to the higher calling with encouragement.


Your Honor I call Dante B. IM's most renowned Atheist to the stand. or Danteist or Dantistic Reasoner or whatever he calls himself these day's although I think he would prefer to be like me and not shroud himself with the label of anything.


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## Vieope (Sep 20, 2004)

_I don´t know if it is the same Dante but I read a pretty good article that he wrote about freedrom of substance use. 
I never saw him online anymore. _


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## Lurker (Sep 20, 2004)

I take the 12-step approach to God and spirituality. Take what you want and leave the rest. So far God and I are totally cool with that.

God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts


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## gr81 (Sep 20, 2004)

> God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts



thats an interesting take on things indeed. lol


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## gr81 (Sep 20, 2004)

not really sure what correlation religion and weight training have with each other, but its all good I guess. I stay away from religious debates b/c they are pointless, even moreso than political scuffles. Both parties believe what they believe and hatever reasons they have, thats how it is. I have yet in my life seen someone make a point regarding religion which resulted in the other person changing their views, no matter how relevant the point was. Its all based on faith, which is all sceptical and subjective. a person can have faith in something that doesn't exists, but b/c they have "faith" in it, thats their belief. It doesn't have to make sense to anyone but them. Bottom line, I believe that religion could offer things that it doesn't and I see that as the problem. Religion should be an opportunity to be part of a community, not a worldwide gangwar. if someone doesn't believe what you believe, thats not an invite to badger them until they see the light, or find jesus or whatever the hell it is you are banking on, just let them be. You do your thing and I will do mine. What speck of evidence have we gathered in our entire human history that would lead us to believe that we can change peoples opinions by badgering them and telling them that they are wrong? you think what you will and I will do the same. religion should be the cause of joy and support, not death and divisiveness, agreed?

btw I am atheist and proud of it.. peace bitches


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## OceanDude (Sep 21, 2004)

Lurker said:
			
		

> I take the 12-step approach to God and spirituality. Take what you want and leave the rest. So far God and I are totally cool with that.
> 
> God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts



I know of no religious doctrines that advocate to the notion of a spiritual buffet or smorgasbord where one picks and chooses what appeals to them. It all seems like a recipe for over indulgence, imbalance and self pleasure to me. But if you are sure God is "cool" with that lets hope that is synonymous with favor and not displeasure. Can you explain why God chose to use the Byzantines standard of a dozen when he only gave us 10 fingers to count on? It would be totally uncool to be tripped up along the righteous path to the buffet table when I ran out of fingers and lost count of how many steps I had taken. More fruitcake for everyone.

OD


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## OceanDude (Sep 21, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _I think that we as atheist end up with a better and deep vision of life. Specially because we don´t accept the theories that were given to us, so we look for something new and exciting everyday to give us the real meaning of life. _



This philosophical pattern of thought has been repeated often in history in both secular and non-secular contexts. It's always proven to be generationally limited and does not endure the test of time since the advocates of this thinking are in the end proven to be mortal. Followers scatter in time as philosophical decay sets in. Humans are weak of will (except in survival situations) and as in established religions a great number will fall out of camp and become lukewarm in their practice of any philosophy when their bellies are full and their lives are comfortable. Ask the beatniks, the hippies, the flappers, the Nazis, the moonies, and countless others that had new theories if they had a more meaningful way of life than others. There is nothing more depressing to me than watching a gray bearded old man with peace sign tattoos and faded and worn bell bottom denim walking the sidewalks with his head bowed dejected as if looking for his fallen comrades. We are all dust at the mercy of the wind. Take a lesson from what endures throughout history from generation to generation to get a clue as to what works: family, specific religious principals, sacrifice, and community.

OD


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## Spitfire (Sep 21, 2004)

Its a good thing this thread did not become another religion thread


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## Tank316 (Sep 21, 2004)

all along i thought bodybuilding was a religion!!!!


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## Vieope (Sep 21, 2004)

OceanDude said:
			
		

> This philosophical pattern of thought has been repeated often in history in both secular and non-secular contexts. It's always proven to be generationally limited and does not endure the test of time since the advocates of this thinking are in the end proven to be mortal. Followers scatter in time as philosophical decay sets in. Humans are weak of will (except in survival situations) and as in established religions a great number will fall out of camp and become lukewarm in their practice of any philosophy when their bellies are full and their lives are comfortable. Ask the beatniks, the hippies, the flappers, the Nazis, the moonies, and countless others that had new theories if they had a more meaningful way of life than others. There is nothing more depressing to me than watching a gray bearded old man with peace sign tattoos and faded and worn bell bottom denim walking the sidewalks with his head bowed dejected as if looking for his fallen comrades. We are all dust at the mercy of the wind. Take a lesson from what endures throughout history from generation to generation to get a clue as to what works: family, specific religious principals, sacrifice, and community.
> 
> OD


_Do you really think that the mass of population got the meaning of life right? People just do what they have been told to do, most people I know is brain dead since birth. I have to admit that it is not that bad, I would not like a full population of smart people lol 
Let´s not debate though, like *Spitfire* mentioned, this thread is good so far. 
If you could explain to me what a moonies is and the flappers. Thanks
I don´t know much about the beatniks although I will be reading "on the road" soon. _


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## ladybuilder (Sep 21, 2004)

To each his own.  I myself have dabbled in many diff. religions and found that being happy with ones self and living life to it's fullest will not bring hemerroids.  

I am a Pagan-I beleive in the earth, and what lies in it. 
 If there is a "Higher Being"  I have not heard his answer to my religious soul searching.  That's my thought.


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## Dale Mabry (Sep 21, 2004)

Try alcoholism, it's a great religion.  I only practice on the weekends, though.  Except for last week.


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## pmech (Sep 21, 2004)

Steven would be proud right now Dale


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## Spitfire (Sep 21, 2004)

ladybuilder said:
			
		

> "Higher Being"


You called


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## OceanDude (Sep 21, 2004)

ladybuilder said:
			
		

> To each his own.  I myself have dabbled in many diff. religions and found that being happy with ones self and living life to it's fullest will not bring hemerroids.
> 
> I am a Pagan-I beleive in the earth, and what lies in it.
> If there is a "Higher Being"  I have not heard his answer to my religious soul searching.  That's my thought.



Interesting viewpoint LB. I never thought to equate the lack of hemorrhoids with having attained peace or fulfillment. But then again I have never bent over for anything but to smell the flowers and have not experienced what must be that hellacious pain. Joking aside...

The earth is buried full of many things - including billions of dead people. Over the centuries most of the pagans have perished or converted to something other (usually materialism with a veneer of ever changing secular morality). I hear your complaint though about the searching and lack of finding. It seems for many God can be silent for a long time and we are constrained by time through our mortality. Impatience I think is a natural emotion and it can compel us to work harder or drive us to abandonment and resignation. No doubt for many of us we just do not comprehend how and when he is talking to us. In the silent times I just try to do the best I can to be a descent person and listen (through spiritual ears) as intently as I can for the subtle persuasions and opportunities for service that invariably manifest themselves when one least expects it. 

I have always liked the notion of "performing random acts of kindness".  They speak loudly to those that witness or are their benefactors.  Surely there is reciprocity in life. Like the deep and mysterious powers of terra firma such things can move mountains in a cascade of self replicating reactions. 

It could be the case of not being able to see the Forest for the trees.
Try listening inwardly to stir up the quite and resting passions and hear the tremors of hope. I have often found the thing I was seeking to already be held tightly but unconsciously in the palm of my own hands. 

OD


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## Arnold (Sep 21, 2004)

Tank316 said:
			
		

> all along i thought bodybuilding was a religion!!!!





and the gym is my temple.


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 21, 2004)

Well, at least it's great how many different opinions/points of view we have on just about every subject around here.  The alternative would be very boring.


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## Spitfire (Sep 21, 2004)

Very true, Max
Hey, is that John Stewart in your avi?


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 21, 2004)

Spitfire said:
			
		

> Very true, Max
> Hey, is that John Stewart in your avi?


Yup.  Just got his new book, "America", and it's hilarious.


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## Spitfire (Sep 21, 2004)

I like him alot, very funny. I stay as far away from politics as possible so I wont be reading that book any time soon, To bad its probably good,


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## perfectbody (Sep 21, 2004)

be an atheist or practise Satanism for bodybuilding purpose. Don't be decieved by those religions set up by dumb ancient people whose dreams, desperation and hallucinations became the image of so called God. I know how it is like to feel to have no one to rely on once u know that there is no one even God to save u and that everything u have been taught are nth but groundless assumptions of a tribe. Just cry when u realise it. But cry it for once and it is enough. 
btw true Buddhism is not a religion...so u may try it. Buddhists do not necessarily sit to do meditation. Actually there is no need to avoid meat.  Anyway it is ur choice to practise whatever u like.


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## ladybuilder (Sep 21, 2004)

I find "Pagan" as the only word that I could possibly describe myself.  I do meditate and I do somethings that would be considered Pagan, but I do not go to the solstices or dance in the moonlight naked, (Old wives tales and it would be fun!  I should try it!).  I in no way consider my self a witch.  
I just cannot see myself being a Catholic, (I was baptised as one), which stole and murdered the way up the "Religious ladder".  
I guess I am not a true Pagan, for I do not have an alter I just agree with some of what they beleive, (the earth is beautiful and humans are as well, etc.).
Truely I would have to be nondenominational, I do not go to any church or practice and beleif system.
So I am not Pagan.  Which would be again the closest I could be labled.   Which I do not mind being labled at all.
I am happy with that.  But will still listen with my "spiritual ears" for any thing that may bring me to an "answer".  If there is one.? 
Again To each his own.


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 21, 2004)

Spitfire said:
			
		

> I like him alot, very funny. I stay as far away from politics as possible so I wont be reading that book any time soon, To bad its probably good,


It's not that political.  It's written more like a history book for school.  He makes fun of just about everything, and in his typical style.  Check it out if you get the chance.  (Plus it has pictures of all the supreme court judges naked.  I kid you not.   )


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## Spitfire (Sep 21, 2004)

MaxMirkin said:
			
		

> (Plus it has pictures of all the supreme court judges naked.  I kid you not.   )


WTF?
I will check it out, I figured It was another actor bitching about bush, and America as it is... Blah Blah Blah, you know.


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## maniclion (Sep 21, 2004)

If GOD dictated the Bible why does it claim the world is flat?  Wouldn't he know it's round?


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 21, 2004)

maniclion said:
			
		

> If GOD dictated the Bible why does it claim the world is flat?  Wouldn't he know it's round?


Maybe he's just near-sighted.


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## maniclion (Sep 21, 2004)

MaxMirkin said:
			
		

> Maybe he's just near-sighted.


I thought she was perfect, I guess that explains her lack of dimensional perception.  I will now revert back to Televangelism that is my favorite religion.


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 21, 2004)

maniclion said:
			
		

> I thought she was perfect, I guess that explains her lack of dimensional perception.  I will now revert back to Televangelism that is my favorite religion.


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## Stickboy (Sep 21, 2004)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> robert, you should look into Islam more... Doesn't it make sense to study some more religions before you actually give up on the thing as a whole? Stickboy, it's because of Islam that i help people out whenever they need it, even if that means i have to stay up an extra 3 hours finishing my work. It's because of Islam that I try my hardest not to lie. It's because of Islam that I'm nice to everyone. It's because of Islam that I wouldn't cheat on a test. It's because of Islam that I wouldn't be a hypocrite or gossip. You should really take a look at it before like you look at the extremists and stuff. These extremists don't have any justification to do what they are doing. They can't prove from the Quran or the life of Prophet Muhammad that what they are doing is right. Infact, it strictly forbids killing in the Quran. It says that if you kill one person, it's like you're killing the whole mankind.



I read the Quran when I was stationed in Saudi Arabia.  I understand what it says.  Perhaps you misunderstood me.  There is nothing wrong with Islam when it's actually Islam.  Going around killing people and beheadings and what not are NOT what Islam is about.  Sorry, if that wasn't clear.


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## Arnold (Sep 21, 2004)

maniclion said:
			
		

> If GOD dictated the Bible why does it claim the world is flat?  Wouldn't he know it's round?



the same reason that he supposedly changes his mind and tells the catholics to revise it. 

I had a professor in college that taught sociolgy, not your typical soc 101 classes, upper dicision stuff like 'deviance of society', anyway he grew up a catholic and was even a reverend or something like that, the guy knew the bible like the back of his hand. anyway he ditched that life and went to college and ultimately became a professor at Colorado State University. there were two subjects he loved to talk, debate, argue, etc., psychology and christianty/religeon, and damn was he good! he had "stories" that would blow your mind about the bible, he would basically explain things the way they were originally written before the meaning was lost and twisted in the many translations. don't get me wrong he thought the bible was a great piece of work, but he believed everything that was written was to be taken metaphorically, not literally.


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## OceanDude (Sep 22, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> the same reason that he supposedly changes his mind and tells the catholics to revise it.
> 
> I had a professor in college that taught sociolgy, not your typical soc 101 classes, upper dicision stuff like 'deviance of society', anyway he grew up a catholic and was even a reverend or something like that, the guy knew the bible like the back of his hand. anyway he ditched that life and went to college and ultimately became a professor at Colorado State University. there were two subjects he loved to talk, debate, argue, etc., psychology and christianty/religeon, and damn was he good! he had "stories" that would blow your mind about the bible, he would basically explain things the way they were originally written before the meaning was lost and twisted in the many translations. don't get me wrong he thought the bible was a great piece of work, but he believed everything that was written was to be taken metaphorically, not literally.



If you are giving an accurate account of what he told you I question this guy's credentials. The title "reverend" applies only to priests in the Catholic Faith not the laity. The Catholics never rewrote the Bible they are in fact the ones that originally compiled the bible from existing original manuscripts (a major part of the Jewish Torah for the Old Testament) and the writings of the Apostles and their disciples for the New Testament. This was a verbatim translation from the original language manuscripts (Greek, Jewish, Aramaic etc.) and was as best as the scholars could humanly do at that time. In fact they were so intent on accuracy that whenever there were disputes on a translation among those undertaking the task they would pen footnotes and explanations and reference each sentence and paragraph number and also show linkage to other chapters and verses to give weight to their translation selection through consistency in the original author's philosophy. Not all literary concepts have a valid translation across differing cultures and languages though. They bound it all up under one single cover and hence the name "The Good News" which is what the term "Bible" means. Many generations later a new sect, the "Protestants", formed and tossed out certain manuscripts of the Bible that they disagreed with the Catholics about and then added back a few other manuscripts that were well known to the theologians but were of questionable lineage, authorship and consistency with other of the core concepts that the Catholics (e.g. means "The Universal Church") compiled centuries earlier. Then later, of course the Protestants rewrote the whole work using the popular romantic vernacular of the time in England under the "King James" translation version (this is where all the flowery "thee", "thou" "thine" etc. words came from.).

Yes the bible uses many many different literary styles and this is the source of much dissent among the "Fundamentalists" (mostly of the Protestant sect) and Catholics and others who profess to be Christians. Fundamentalists argue that each word, syllable etc. is to be taken as absolute utterance from the mouth of God without regard to literary style. Catholic theologians recognize that the bible is full of metaphor, apocalyptic imagery, parables, poems, history and many other wildly different literary techniques used to get an idea or message out to people that had no other way to communicate except through oration and exciting speech. That was why there was so much apocalyptic imagery because it was a thing that held peoples attention and painted vivid emotional images into the audience that would not be soon forgotten in an age with no TV radio or even much printed material.

The accounts of Jesus in all the versions of the Bible consistently (both Catholic, Protestant and all the other sects and modern translation versions) indicate that Jesus had a huge problem with the teachers of his time (Rabbis, Pharisees, Sadducees) making it impossible for the non-scholarly and uneducated to understand scripture and religious law and cause them to lose heart and fall into abandonment of God's teaching. My take is he saw these "holy men" as making a monopolistic business for themselves so others could not reach God except through them (which was usurping Jesus's role as High Priest of God). He also consistently "bucked" the law to show that God was a "God of Mercy" and would not judge harshly those that were doing the best they could to be compassionate to others and in so doing accidentally disobeyed the impossibly complex religious law (with thousands of rules) of that time (e.g. healing on the holy days and not stoning the adulterous etc.).  Those that insist that others must hold to literal translations in any thing but the two direct commandments ("Love God with your whole heart" and "Love your Neighbor") are inviting for themselves the harshest of judgments that Jesus has warned God has reserved for those that "trip up his followers" with complex and legal like rules (as he warned Pharisees and Sadducees). Theologians generally believe that those that do not believe in Gods message they will be judged according to their actions and compassion to their fellow man and will have no intercessor to intervene on their behalf at all. May God help them. Christians will not be judged according to the precise letter of the law since Jesus as their direct and compelling intercessor will inter-plead for mercy in areas that they failed in life (since he pre-paid the penalty for their punishment through crucifixion). The Jews and other religions will be judged according to the very strict interpretation of their complex laws and few will be found to have not violated any since they are extremely complex and not consistent. Jews are likely to be granted Abraham and Moses as their intercessor but it will be harsh for them too since there is little mercy or compassion in those laws. Those practicing religions that where complete fabrications by "plausible lier's" will have nothing but God's judgment to face and this is why those that created them will be condemned to the most terrible of eternal punishments for making their followers so vulnerable to ungodly lies. Those that are slaughtering innocent people in God's name have no prayer and will be utterly obliterated from creation on the day of his wrath.

OD


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## Minotaur (Sep 22, 2004)

Stickboy said:
			
		

> I read the Quran when I was stationed in Saudi Arabia.  I understand what it says.  Perhaps you misunderstood me.  There is nothing wrong with Islam when it's actually Islam.  Going around killing people and beheadings and what not are NOT what Islam is about.  Sorry, if that wasn't clear.



You're right, that's not what true Islam is about.  A Muslim woman I sat next to in a waiting room where a TV was on with the news showing Muslim terrorists, kept saying "but that is NOT our religion!" almost with tears in her eyes and her voice cracking.  

True Christianity is not about people like Jimmy Swaggart saying he would kill a man who made a pass at him and then lie to God about how the man died.  

Gandhi was killed by another Hindu; Hindus revere life.  Nuts exist in every religion.


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## OceanDude (Sep 22, 2004)

Minotaur said:
			
		

> You're right, that's not what true Islam is about.  A Muslim woman I sat next to in a waiting room where a TV was on with the news showing Muslim terrorists, kept saying "but that is NOT our religion!" almost with tears in her eyes and her voice cracking.
> 
> True Christianity is not about people like Jimmy Swaggart saying he would kill a man who made a pass at him and then lie to God about how the man died.
> 
> Gandhi was killed by another Hindu; Hindus revere life.  Nuts exist in every religion.



Minotaur, then again Islam is one of the few religions  that actually specifically prescribe that "unbelievers" should be slain for Allah if they do not repent and submit to what some obscure religious leader (tribal in nature) thinks is the will of God. The only other I can think of at the moment is the Kali sect of India that was the religion of murderers and robbers and stranglers. Apart from that no other religion that I know of has specific instructions and demands that all true believers come to the defense of their brothers and fight a "Jihad" against those that oppose what "someone" decides is against the tenants of Islam. There is no "true" Islam since there is no central authority. Mullahs and clerics from different sects openly kill and murder each other all over the middle east to gain power and influence.  It's a tribal religion and it will likely fall from significance within 25 years as the west is forced to face the reality that this high jacked religion is a front (and likely always was) for thugs, murderers and Arab nationalism. The "peaceful" followers of Islam are nothing but pawns to be sacrificed by those in power that will willfully blow them to hamburger if they happen to be in the way when they use a suicide bomb to kill a few Americans. But then again they get to go straight to heaven (like the Viking who dies in combat with their sword in their hand) if they sacrifice for the cause so it was no big deal they got taken out by mistake.

Peace Brother,
OD


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## perfectbody (Sep 23, 2004)

I should repeat that religions are lame. Stop arguing and be practical, BE AN ATHEIST!!!
I still remember the day when i left the religious worlds behind...how sweet it was. 
I am waiting for anyone who gonna be my brothers in our Atheist world.


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## Spitfire (Sep 23, 2004)

IM WITH YOU MAN Yeah!


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## John H. (Sep 24, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _As an aspiring bodybuilder I am having conflicting thoughts about religion.  I thought about buddhism but Buddha seems sort of fat, don´t even get me started on Gandhi. Maybe the right way to go is christianity, Jesus sure can handle a cutting phase.
> So, what do you think?  _



I think most religions are not honest, sincere, accurate, etc. Certainly they are responsible - like politics - for the death of more people, misery, etc. 

The American Indians I feel had a very truthful and accurate and sincere "religion" - they learned from Nature and the Natural World.


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## Dante B. (Sep 24, 2004)

maniclion said:
			
		

> although I think he would prefer to be like me and not shroud himself with the label of anything.



Exactly.

Some of us prefer to practice what we preach and learn as we go, instead of preaching what we 'know' but don't believe in when we perceive and act.

Or: the proof is in the pudding. If yours is made with shit, it doesn't matter what you label it.

The average "pagan," eclectic, and atheist is just as laughable and hollow as the Christians being condemned; the same applies to the Christians.

I have no respect for spiritualists who spend their time as the monkey in the middle of a circle jerk. When the moment arrives to counsel someone, all they have to offer are mouthfuls and stains; but not substance.

Ritual becomes rote; knowing, something that is told instead of demonstrated.

"I'm a Christian." Then why can't I distinguish you from the unbelievers? The meaning isn't in the claim or the recital.

"I'm a pagan, I don't fall for that religious bullshit." Then why can't I distinguish you from the Christians?



> Pepper, don't throw your pearls to the swine. Many here have chosen to be single dimensional kinds of creatures and focus only on the physical ("body" building) and pay little or no attention to the Intellect or the Spirit. There are different kingdoms (even below the animals) and some will choose to cast off their inheritance and invitations to higher callings. That sadness and loss will be overcome by the wonderous achievement of those lesser among us who will prevail to the higher calling with encouragement



How do you know you're not casting your pearls to swine when you're speaking to him? Because he calls himself a Christian? And throws his words together accordingly?

That's an example - I don't know Pepper. But I wouldn't pat someone on the ass only because they claimed to be an agnostic above all that religious tripe.


And with that, I'm out.


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## Vieope (Sep 24, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> The average "pagan," eclectic, and atheist is just as laughable and hollow as the Christians being condemned; the same applies to the Christians.


_Why? I never met an "empty" atheist or an avarage atheist. It is not an easy decision to make and requires some serious thought. _


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## Dante B. (Sep 24, 2004)

Then you're either lucky with your surroundings, or a bad judge of content and character.

Serious thought - about what? What they don't believe in and why? Applied only to the argument against God?

Or what they do believe and why: what they see, how they act, and how it's integrated into a consistent sum for perceiving, acting, and teaching?

Even then, that gets back to what I said initially. And "decision" and "serious," is a meaningless pile of nonsense. When someone "decides" for or against anything, you have to see what they are and aren't taking into consideration, and how they're integrating and extending it when it comes to action and demonstration in all avenues of life. Many "decisions" are no better than: I stopped believing in God when poochy was run over by the ice cream man.

Atheism isn't a unique decision that isn't subject to the same general errors of reasoning and perceiving.

Content, relevance, and integration are the measures of quality; quality assessment is only as good as the person who perceives - so I'm really not concerned with feedback when it comes to what a person claims to have seen or not seen. I'd rather see what the person has to say and with what standards they judge, before I'm told what they've perceived in others.

When it comes to matters of psychology - the mind, its nature - what do these "Atheists" think? Hint: if they blindly accept the biological model of depression and affective disorders, they're certainly no wiser than a person who claims, "God made the mind - and the Devil tempts you," doing nothing more on their own in thought and practice.

But one example. When I'm talking about the oft-ridiculousness of atheism and eclecticism, I'm not speaking only on the account of arguments for or against God.

Meditation is another wonderful example of a system with so many benefits, that go far deeper than relaxation, which is often translated by fools to express an intellectual abortion.

And when they discuss friendship? Love? The meaning and nature of knowledge? Worthy goals and irrelevant details for the serious man? In essence: what is the good life.

"Life is what you make of it," is just as bankrupt as, "I live for the glory of God."

When I'm talking about religion and spirituality, I'm speaking about life as a whole, modern and past - what a person is or isn't seeing, how they are or aren't acting, and what they're preaching or failing to understand and demonstrate.

I've seen very few people who meet the standards, and I'm certainly not including myself among them; I work toward them, so I generally prefer to remain silent.


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## Vieope (Sep 24, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> Then you're either lucky with your surroundings, or a bad judge of content and character.
> 
> Serious thought - about what? What they don't believe in and why? Applied only to the argument against God?
> 
> ...



_
Lucky I guess 
I am not considering that every atheist got all the aspects of life in the best form possible. They are different from each other, they are not exactly a group, since they only share this characteristic. It is not yet the best thing possible that we as humans can achieve but it is one step closer or one step ahead of anyone that follows a predetermined belief, don´t you think?
_


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## Dante B. (Sep 24, 2004)

No. Because it depends on what apect and essence they're rejecting and why. What they're seeing that's wrong, and if they're viewing an essential fault or an effect that's shared between different systems - so if they change the result but not the essence with its implications, they're pitching the same tent under new bedsheets instead.

I rarely quote, but I couldn't put it any better than von Mises:

An ???anti-something??? movement displays a purely negative attitude. It has no chance whatever to succeed. Its passionate diatribes virtually advertise the program that they attack. People must fight for something that they want to achieve, not simply reject an evil, however bad it may be. 



Something that's premade with one part poision and two parts protein is better than a new blend made by someone who can't tell the difference. Looking at the current societal trends, there's a better chance of being totally poisoned than partially sustained.

I'm certainly not blaming "Atheism" for our modern ills, just as I don't blame "Christianity" for the past. But no one is ever better off just because they're on their own without a good book to claim. As I said, the average atheist, eclectic, or pagan, is bankrupt. They will not change anything for the better, even if they do away with one or two previous faults.

Was the Socialist Man with all that it entailed one step in the right direction and two away from evil?


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## Vieope (Sep 24, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> No. Because it depends on what apect and essence they're rejecting and why. What they're seeing that's wrong, and if they're viewing an essential fault or an effect that's shared between different systems - so if they change the result but not the essence with its implications, they're pitching the same tent under new bedsheets instead.
> 
> I rarely quote, but I couldn't put it any better than von Mises:
> 
> ...


_I don´t see where atheist could disagree on that matter. It is just the "not agreeing" in any system because they were imposed by others with the intent of control, not to make anyone life better. 
Why deny biology? I found it odd, that people are vain enough to not accept they are going to die. No matter how many books, theories, nothing can change how the world works, humanity is not ill now, it was always like that. The only difference is your perception because you are getting old, death is just around the corner and you have to think about survival everyday.
Is that hard to accept that you have an end?
_


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## Dante B. (Sep 24, 2004)

> with the intent of control, not to make anyone life better



And how will anyone know the difference without a concept of the good life? The road to hell.....

No one's ever gained power by outright stating: This is for my good, not yours. Fuck off.

Anyone who believes that religion was created for control, and blindly accepted, hasn't a clue. Everything works for a reason, or worked for a reason, religion being no different. Religion was a result, not a cause - something to think about for all of you who talk about the horrors of religious past. That's only a valid argument against those who speak of the necessary evils of an atheistic society; but the ability to argue against someone, on some detail, doesn't display any capacity to understand anything beyond a mere spot.

As for biology, I'm going to stick to the essentials: belief in an after-life or not, I'm concerned with the thought going into this one, and I judge accordingly. If someone's belief in life ever after corresponds to health in the thoughts and actions of the present, even in relation to those who don't agree on that point, then I needn't argue. A person who believes in only one chance to live, without any thought about one shot to get it right, serves little purpose to me in association or argument.

They aren't any less vain. "I'm not going to live forever, so I may as well live it up!" And why do you do the things you do - only because you can?


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## Vieope (Sep 24, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> And how will anyone know the difference without a concept of the good life? The road to hell.....
> 
> No one's ever gained power by outright stating: This is for my good, not yours. Fuck off.
> 
> As for biology, I'm going to stick to the essentials: belief in an after-life or not, I'm concerned with the thought going into this one, and I judge accordingly. If someone's belief in life ever after corresponds to health in the present, even with those who don't agree on that point, then I needn't argue. A person who believes in only one chance to live, without any thought about one shot to get it right, serves little purpose to me in association or argument.


_
No one gained power saying that. I know that a lot of them gained power while thinking that. 
I am sure I don´t know everything, that would make life not worth living. What I look in this life is my happiness and the happiness of anyone around me . I have to agree with you, doesn´t really matter what they believe in as long if they live a good life. 

Btw, have you solved the problem of solipsism that haunted Descartes in his last days?  _


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## Dante B. (Sep 24, 2004)

> No one gained power saying that. I know that a lot of them gained power while thinking that.



But that's irrelevant in the final analysis. If something works, look to the reasons why. And something that was previously established for good - actually being good in nature and effect - can easily be suited for the wrong ends if people don't understand the nature of their system and belief.

That's the way it is with politics: beneficial institutions are easily corrupted before everyone's eyes, because it's easy to preserve the symbols that people identity with, while subverting the principles that are rarely understood. It doesn't come to follow that the system originally served the purpose of control, but not good.



> Btw, have you solved the problem of solipsism that haunted Descartes in his last days?



Honestly, I don't care. Why should I? You're all in my head, so if I please myself, I please everyone. Delusion is a beautiful thing.


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## Vieope (Sep 24, 2004)

> And something that was previously established for good - actually being good in nature and effect - can easily be suited for the wrong ends if people don't understand the nature of their system and belief.


_That is very right, everybody has their notion of good that may be bad for someone else. That is why society is so necessary. _



> Honestly, I don't care. Why should I? You're all in my head, so if I please myself, I please everyone. Delusion is a beautiful thing.


_I though you would care, it is a fun theory. No way I would believe that but I know that it must be the starting point for most mental disorders. lol
I guess you know that since you work in psychology? wrong deduction? 

Sorry if I missed it but "what" are you? Not an atheist, not a christian. What would you be? If you don´t mind me asking. _


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## Dante B. (Sep 24, 2004)

> That is why society is so necessary



Not society, but thoughts on systems, small and large scale relationships necessary to achieve defined goals (with thoughts on those goals), and unintended consequences. Only wanted to deal with the basic issues floating around this thread, so all of this is for another day. 



> wrong deduction?



Yes. I'm a drag whore and I sell myself to the lowest bidders. I'm a prostitute with self-esteem issues who isn't comfortable with the responsibilities associated with higher standards.

As for mental disorders and thoughts on sanity, I have my theories, but I'd rather take more time than prematurely ejaculate; have my own approach to it brewing, however.



> What would you be? If you don´t mind me asking.



It's never gotten me anywhere to say what I am. People will see what they want, and putting a title to it doesn't change or shouldn't change what they're seeing, if we're discussing the subtance of issues, not surface associations; it it does, then I've wasted time because I'd only end up arguing, or talking to those who won't take my any further.

If we go by what others have said, I guess I'm an asshole. I prefer to think of myself as a shit disturber.


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## nikegurl (Sep 24, 2004)

sounds Catholic


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## Vieope (Sep 24, 2004)

> As for mental disorders and thoughts on sanity, I have my theories, but I'd rather take more time than prematurely ejaculate; have my own approach to it brewing, however.


_Make a thread with your theories, if you saw that anxiety thread you could see how many IM members would benefit from that. Nobody is normal around here. _




> If we go by what others have said, I guess I'm an asshole. I prefer to think of myself as a shit disturber.


_Label yourself as an atheist or better yet, be a nihilist. Just don´t think that no one is like you, that would be a huge mistake. 
Just do me a favor, since I don´t know you, I can´t see if you are upset or not about discussing such a sentitive issue. If you are, let me know, it was never the intention of this thread.  _


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## Dante B. (Sep 24, 2004)

I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic school in my early years. Damn spiritual constipation.

Though, I guess that partly explains why I like to dress up as a nun when I'm working the corner: "sit down and shut up, little man, or you're going to get 3 inches of wood across your knuckles."


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## nikegurl (Sep 24, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic school in my early years. Damn spiritual constipation.



I had a feeling.  I wasn't trying to be an ass when I said "sounds Catholic".


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## Vieope (Sep 24, 2004)

nikegurl said:
			
		

> I had a feeling.  I wasn't trying to be an ass when I said "sounds Catholic".


_What are you doing here anyway? 20 year olds are not allowed.  _


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## Dante B. (Sep 24, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Make a thread with your theories, if you saw that anxiety thread you could see how many IM members would benefit from that. Nobody is normal around here. _
> 
> No, I would rather take the time to think through them. I simply discuss perspectives in general, when I care to. I'd rather use my time to learn.
> 
> ...



I'm playing around with you. I'm an inveterate smart-ass. The nuns found that trait less than endearing.


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## nikegurl (Sep 24, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _What are you doing here anyway? 20 year olds are not allowed.  _



   now you stop that.  i know i've never lied about being old and gray 

(and i'm stalking Dante.  he said i could, sorta)


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## Dante B. (Sep 24, 2004)

nikegurl said:
			
		

> I had a feeling.  I wasn't trying to be an ass when I said "sounds Catholic".



I know.

Dammit, I have a sense of humor! 

Sometimes.


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## Vieope (Sep 24, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> I'm playing around with you. I'm an inveterate smart-ass. The nuns found that trait less than endearing.


_Damn, I am doing the same thing. :bounce: _


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## nikegurl (Sep 24, 2004)

i thought so - but sometimes i assume too much.  

nuns also don't like lots of questions.


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## Vieope (Sep 24, 2004)

nikegurl said:
			
		

> now you stop that.  i know i've never lied about being old and gray
> 
> (and i'm stalking Dante.  he said i could, sorta)


_I still don´t buy that. I saw your picture once, you don´t look 33.
Ok, stalk each other. I need to go out for a while.  Good night to you two. _


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## Dante B. (Sep 24, 2004)

nikegurl said:
			
		

> nuns also don't like lots of questions.



We're afraid of getting busted.

I'm out of this, so you guys have fun. It's back to the corner for me.


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## OceanDude (Sep 25, 2004)

John H. said:
			
		

> I think most religions are not honest, sincere, accurate, etc. Certainly they are responsible - like politics - for the death of more people, misery, etc.
> 
> The American Indians I feel had a very truthful and accurate and sincere "religion" - they learned from Nature and the Natural World.



Hmm, I wonder what part of nature taught them to scalp, skin alive, burn at the stake, mutilate, rape, and eat the body organs of their enemies.

OD


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## OceanDude (Sep 25, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> Exactly.
> 
> ...
> How do you know you're not casting your pearls to swine when you're speaking to him? Because he calls himself a Christian? And throws his words together accordingly?
> ...


Because, unless someone has hijacked his handle, I have known him for a fairly long time and found him to be a guy who has a conscience and a religious philosophy that is not self centered. Besides my 2 cents are a pretty penny short of the hoard of pearls I have.

OD


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## OceanDude (Sep 25, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> Then you're either lucky with your surroundings, or a bad judge of content and character.
> 
> Serious thought - about what? What they don't believe in and why? Applied only to the argument against God?
> 
> ...



Interesting thoughts. The one thing I would recommend you ponder is if its possible to enter fully into spiritual understanding through the pathways of intellect. There are a lot of seemingly pure, innocent, peaceful and beautiful people out there who's IQs are clearly below average (some of us are even retards) who seem to have made some kind of connection with "something". Would it not be ironic if in the end we discovered that the smartest among us are those that do not have the capacity or the need to carry the burden of deep introspection or perform amazing feats of philosophical "soul" searching (oxymoron ?) and just were able to trust on the Nature of things. I personally believe that intellect and spirituality are linked but I am not convinced spirituality can be reasoned to any kind of unifying logical conclusion (try contemplating a logical walk around the Möbius strip to find the beginning or the end). But then again this could be one of those great paradoxes in life and the fundamentalists might have it right about the folly of such things when they toss out that age old child's question to confound the intellectual giants among us: "What came first the chicken or the egg" ? 

OD


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## OceanDude (Sep 25, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> ...
> If we go by what others have said, I guess I'm an asshole. I prefer to think of myself as a shit disturber.



That's consistent with your observations about cause and effect. A "catalyst" for cause, even when chaotic in nature, produces an opportunity for change - for good (growth) or bad (decay). This is consistent with Nature and more productive than scat since it???s not consumed in the reaction. Perhaps you might fancy this expression ("catalyst") as a more generalized and orthodox description of self? As an aside, I use to contemplate tattooing myself in faux gauche social trappings to encourage a discourse among people put off by a more genteel manner. I later abandoned this principally because it was inherently false and much too easy to be seen as insincere and quite vulnerable to discovery by the well accomplished vulgar among us.  But also, pragmatically, it just encouraged others to compete and exceed the levels of vulgarity and distract the focus of dialog from meaningful insight and instead goad each other on to self centered debasement. I have since ratified that ???class??? is everything. It is a greater discriminator which offers a positive contrast and achieves a more enduring attention than does its negative opposite contrast of debasement. I would encourage you to consider that self-deprecation is a negative force and let other???s see what they will. The mirror reflects most pleasing in the presence of beauty but it serves no rational purpose to crack itself as a gesture of consideration to prevent from reflecting the ugly that glance by. Truth is Truth.

I have found that people resent the forces of nature (2nd hurricane bearing down on me at this moment and will lose power soon) but that is the nature of people too. Nature has never been polite and the earth has never been at peace and is ever changing. A child is not polite when it rolls in it???s mothers womb and fights to seek its own existence. Of course none would expect any other behavior. No doubt the world and Creation will be what it was meant to be irrespective of what people think or want. From the perspective of self change can be for growth or decay. But from the perspective of the Infinite I trust that change is for Growth and Purpose. Who is to say that all the catalysts for cause and effect are not the Natural hand of God chipping away and polishing his work of Creation? 

OD


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## OceanDude (Sep 25, 2004)

Dante B. said:
			
		

> I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic school in my early years. Damn spiritual constipation.
> 
> Though, I guess that partly explains why I like to dress up as a nun when I'm working the corner: "sit down and shut up, little man, or you're going to get 3 inches of wood across your knuckles."



You got wood?  Lightweight. They used the metal ruler on us guys to build and measure our character. Funny thing is  - we boys loved to see how much we could take and it encouraged us to be mischievous. Those days still are some of my fondest memories and all of us that survived are life long friends with a lot of funny stories. We still have enormous respect for those nuns who gave up their entire lives to help us "pagans" (What they genuinely thought we were) get educated and thinking about spirituality. Most are very old women now with no retirement benefits. They had a tremendous influence on me (very positive) and I have a tremendous amount of respect for them.

OD


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## John H. (Sep 25, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> and the gym is my temple.



Hi Robert,

And Your body is also your temple. And what you have achieved is the proof of the honesty and the sincereity and the goodness of that religion and the effort you put into being your very best. 

Take Care, John H.


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## John H. (Sep 25, 2004)

OceanDude said:
			
		

> Hmm, I wonder what part of nature taught them to scalp, skin alive, burn at the stake, mutilate, rape, and eat the body organs of their enemies.
> 
> OD



Hi Ocean,

The "White Man".

Take Care, John H.


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## Dante B. (Sep 25, 2004)

> . The one thing I would recommend you ponder is if its possible to enter fully into spiritual understanding through the pathways of intellect



"Intellect" is rarely defined to my liking. What's considered "non-intellectual" pathways to the self are often paths that I consider necessary to intelligent thought and action - self-definition and progress.

"Spiritual," as well.

And I don't view the IQ or any available methods of testing as a judge of intelligence. "Concepts without intuitions are empty; intuition without concepts is blind." How you theorize about something determines how you look at it and proceed; data and measurements without an understanding of what you're observing, or professing to observe, is devoid of meaning.



> Perhaps you might fancy this expression ("catalyst") as a more generalized and orthodox description of self?



People talk of balance, moderation, avoiding or embracing extremes, and what have you. I aim for symmetry between the outside and inside.



> I would encourage you to consider that self-deprecation is a negative force and let other???s see what they will.



I don't cater to the vulgar. I take people only as seriously as they need to be taken. When it comes to myself, I do what I do regardless of an audience. If I need to explain something, I will, if there's a purpose to doing so. If there isn't, I aim to please - myself. Then I leave, because I'd rather spend that time alone.

A wise man knows the difference between enjoying a good laugh for his own sake, and abasing himself to gain an audience of a vile constitution.

He also knows the difference between talking and doing, and if talking at a moment is going to further his doing. With that said, I'm going to be a good student and get back to my studies.

Take care.


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## Spitfire (Sep 28, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Why? I never met an "empty" atheist or an avarage atheist. It is not an easy decision to make and requires some serious thought. _


It took 16 years of thinking before I was able to make up my mind


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 28, 2004)

I was born an atheist, and never saw a reason to change.


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## Spitfire (Sep 28, 2004)

Max, really? Your parents did not impose a religion on you growing up?


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 28, 2004)

Spitfire said:
			
		

> Max, really? Your parents did not impose a religion on you growing up?


That would have taken some balls on their part, seeing as how we were in the Soviet Union. 


Hey man, how you doing?  Did you start your new job yet?


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## Lurker (Sep 28, 2004)

*Answer to OD*



			
				OceanDude said:
			
		

> I know of no religious doctrines that advocate to the notion of a spiritual buffet or smorgasbord where one picks and chooses what appeals to them. It all seems like a recipe for over indulgence, imbalance and self pleasure to me. But if you are sure God is "cool" with that lets hope that is synonymous with favor and not displeasure. Can you explain why God chose to use the Byzantines standard of a dozen when he only gave us 10 fingers to count on? It would be totally uncool to be tripped up along the righteous path to the buffet table when I ran out of fingers and lost count of how many steps I had taken. More fruitcake for everyone.
> 
> OD


For starters I don't consider myself religious or in favor of endorsing religion. As ladybuilder said, "To each their own". For me there is simply God and the struggle to know who I am, in truth and in spirit, which is the spiritual quest. 

As for intellect:
"Mind, in truth, is the cause of bondage and of liberation"- Matari Upanishad 6.34:11

The ego:
"If anyone wishes to be a follower of mine, he must leave the self behind"-Matthew 16:24

Over-indulgence and self-will run riot melt away when one is not driven by the cravings of the ego,the intellect, or the desires of the larger world (still working on that one personally). 

Can you explain why God chose to use the Byzantines standard of a dozen when he only gave us 10 fingers to count on? -Men make choices based upon their times whether this is spiritually directed or the way of the world is up to the observer. 

Thought, knowledge, and language all function in time and can at best comprehend and describe what is temporal, not what is spiritual and therefore eternal-Ravi Ravindra

Because the very meaning of faith is based on belief and therefore not easily quantifiable all debate becomes moot. Circular and illogical therefore a collosal waste of time. Leaving me only with what I know which is; that I am okay with the God of my understanding for today.


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## Spitfire (Sep 28, 2004)

MaxMirkin said:
			
		

> That would have taken some balls on their part, seeing as how we were in the Soviet Union.
> 
> 
> Hey man, how you doing?  Did you start your new job yet?


Balls indeed, Ive actually been great, I just cant wait to walk away from this desk forever. I start oct 11. They will give me a laptop when I know what I know what I am doing, which will have a wiresless modem, so I hope I can be as useless there as I am here. How bout you, Hows things going?


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## Vieope (Sep 28, 2004)

Spitfire said:
			
		

> I start oct 11.


_Sep.11 will be forgotten after this tragedy. _


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 28, 2004)

Spitfire said:
			
		

> Balls indeed, Ive actually been great, I just cant wait to walk away from this desk forever. I start oct 11. They will give me a laptop when I know what I know what I am doing, which will have a wiresless modem, so I hope I can be as useless there as I am here. How bout you, Hows things going?


I'm eternally useless.


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## MaxMirkin (Sep 28, 2004)

Vieope said:
			
		

> _Sep.11 will be forgotten after this tragedy. _


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## Spitfire (Sep 28, 2004)

My bad.


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## Spitfire (Sep 28, 2004)

V did you see this punk claming 'Rabbit' 
http://ironmagazineforums.com/showpost.php?p=768122&postcount=6
He lives in Fla I could take care of him for you. 
*loads a magzine, cocks the slide, Posts sign [Rabbit season]*


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## Vieope (Sep 28, 2004)

Spitfire said:
			
		

> V did you see this punk claming 'Rabbit'
> http://ironmagazineforums.com/showpost.php?p=768122&postcount=6
> He lives in Fla I could take care of him for you.
> *loads a magzine, cocks the slide, Posts sign [Rabbit season]*


_LOL.. not necessary. He has a nice avatar.  _


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## Spitfire (Sep 28, 2004)

Ok true... Hes lucky your such a nice guy
Whats ups Bro, what have you been up to?


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## Vieope (Sep 28, 2004)

_
Nothing much, the usual. Hot women, beach .. 
How are you doing?  _


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## Spitfire (Sep 28, 2004)

The usual. Hot women, beach 
Hey V, what do you do? School/work/pimp


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## Vieope (Sep 28, 2004)

_University takes much of my time, I work when I have fewer classes to attend. I am doing a very boring engineering course, I will move to physics/astronomy soon though. 
What do you do? I guess it is something with computers? _


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## Spitfire (Sep 28, 2004)

First of all I find physics very interesting. I think you would excel in that field. You seem to have the right mind for that stuff.
I was an electrician by trade, I fell off a ladder and hurt my back, I work in an office now but I am going stir crazy. I got a job for a controls company (thats why I asked if anyone was in that field) It is the job of my dreams.


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## Vieope (Sep 28, 2004)

Spitfire said:
			
		

> right mind for that stuff.


_Right mind, that is a kind expression to use. That is what I was looking for. My friends use others not so nice.  
Thanks  _


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## Spitfire (Jan 7, 2005)

Hey V, Did you move to Physics/Astronomy yet?


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## Vieope (Jan 7, 2005)

_ 
Enjoying january because it is vacation for everybody and nothing works here before carnaval and that is like almost in march then I will think about the stars.  _


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## Spitfire (Jan 7, 2005)

I dont understand why we didnt think of carnaval first. It just doesnt seem fair.


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## Vieope (Jan 7, 2005)

_Hey New Orleans is also great. _


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## Spitfire (Jan 7, 2005)

Yeah but there is non of this
Not work safe


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## Vieope (Jan 7, 2005)

_Well women don´t flash here.  
That is why I think New Orleans would be a good experience. _


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## Spitfire (Jan 7, 2005)

They dont flash cause ther not wearing shirts


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