# Hcg question



## fray5 (Dec 13, 2010)

How would one go about running hcg the last 2 weeks of cycle? If it was a 10 week cycle of test c 500mg/wk and dbol 30/mg a day for 4 wks. Could you run it 500iu's 3 times a week for 2 weeks up until the last inj.?Or would it be beneficial not to run hcg at all? Thanks guys!


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## heavyiron (Dec 13, 2010)

HCG is great to speed recovery because it increases the mass of the testes so they can output T sooner. I would run the HCG a minimum of 3 weeks.


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## aja44 (Dec 14, 2010)

If heavy says 500iu's 3x per week then that is what you should do.  I was taught to run the HCG all the way through cycle and continue after your last shot while the test ester is clearing your system.  So in this case you should run it the last 2 weeks of your cycle and then the next 2 weeks while the Cyp clears your system and stop just before you start your PCT.  

Heavy, can you confirm this in this case if he is waiting till just the end to run it?


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## Jasonva (Dec 14, 2010)

NEVER NEVER run hcg after your cycle. It will only suppress you longer... Please just run 40 40 20 20 of nolvadex and .5mg of armidex ed. This will get you back into the green as far as natty test levels are concerned.

You should have run 500iu HCG e3d while you were own to prevent shrinkage... But you didn't so I'd recommend the nolva and a-dex to tighten you up.


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## fray5 (Dec 14, 2010)

aja44 said:


> If heavy says 500iu's 3x per week then that is what you should do. I was taught to run the HCG all the way through cycle and continue after your last shot while the test ester is clearing your system. So in this case you should run it the last 2 weeks of your cycle and then the next 2 weeks while the Cyp clears your system and stop just before you start your PCT.
> 
> Heavy, can you confirm this in this case if he is waiting till just the end to run it?


 
So if I ran it 3 weeks up until through the 2 weeks while it's clearing my system I should be gtg? and this would be at 500iu's 3 times/wk?


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## fray5 (Dec 14, 2010)

aja44 said:


> If heavy says 500iu's 3x per week then that is what you should do. I was taught to run the HCG all the way through cycle and continue after your last shot while the test ester is clearing your system. So in this case you should run it the last 2 weeks of your cycle and then the next 2 weeks while the Cyp clears your system and stop just before you start your PCT.
> 
> Heavy, can you confirm this in this case if he is waiting till just the end to run it?


 

But I heard that you are better off running the hcg at the end rather than not at all. I think it'd be a good idea to give the testes a shock before PCT begins.


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## DaRealIronworker (Dec 14, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> HCG is great to speed recovery because it increases the mass of the testes so they can output T sooner. I would run the HCG a minimum of 3 weeks.


Heavy, you still preaching that HCG volumizes the testes? Sertoli cells volumize, not Leydig...and you know that HCG limits FSH release. But I know you have a study saying increased testosterone (as produced through HCG use) will stimulate the HTPA feedback loop. Don't believe it. Haven't experienced it. HMG, however, WILL do this. Let's get off this HCG myth and use what we know will work.....


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## fray5 (Dec 14, 2010)

Real quick guys.. So I'm thinking after 10 weeks of just Test C 500mg/wk and Dbol 30mg/day for the first 4 wks, that a normal Clomid 50/50/25/25 and Nolva 20/20/20/20 should be ok for PCT. Then, the hcg can just be saved. This has been done before and worked just fine for me. Does that sound ok to you all?


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## heavyiron (Dec 14, 2010)

aja44 said:


> If heavy says 500iu's 3x per week then that is what you should do. I was taught to run the HCG all the way through cycle and continue after your last shot while the test ester is clearing your system. So in this case you should run it the last 2 weeks of your cycle and then the next 2 weeks while the Cyp clears your system and stop just before you start your PCT.
> 
> Heavy, can you confirm this in this case if he is waiting till just the end to run it?


 Pretty much except cyp hits baseline around 10 days after injection.


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## ZECH (Dec 14, 2010)

DaRealIronworker said:


> Heavy, you still preaching that HCG volumizes the testes? Sertoli cells volumize, not Leydig...and you know that HCG limits FSH release. But I know you have a study saying increased testosterone (as produced through HCG use) will stimulate the HTPA feedback loop. Don't believe it. Haven't experienced it. HMG, however, WILL do this. Let's get off this HCG myth and use what we know will work.....



And you know this how? There are MANY guys on here that have run HCG during cycle with great success and that is no reason to change IMO


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## heavyiron (Dec 14, 2010)

DaRealIronworker said:


> Heavy, you still preaching that HCG volumizes the testes? Sertoli cells volumize, not Leydig...and you know that HCG limits FSH release. But I know you have a study saying increased testosterone (as produced through HCG use) will stimulate the HTPA feedback loop. Don't believe it. Haven't experienced it. HMG, however, WILL do this. Let's get off this HCG myth and use what we know will work.....


HCG is only one part of PCT recovery. The OP is asking about this component so I am only commenting on this particular question not all aspects of PCT. I also commonly recommend Clomid after HCG treatment.

Additionally we do have a study that states HCG increases the volume of the testes.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ract/66/6/1144. Here, hCG alone was administered to 22 men with secondary hypogonadism *"until maximal testicular growth was achieved."* So implicit in the study design was the fact that hCG increases testicular volume. And sure enough, with administration of "hCG alone", "Their mean testicular volume increased from 5.5 mL (pretreatment) to 10.8 mL (maximum) during treatment." Also we know ITT levels increase dose dependantly with HCG administration. Therefore my statement that HCG helps the testes output T is supported by science.


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## fray5 (Dec 15, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> Pretty much except cyp hits baseline around 10 days after injection.


 
so that means the hcg should be ran up until 15 days after the last test c shot and then clomid/nolva pct can begin a couple days after that?


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## heavyiron (Dec 15, 2010)

fray5 said:


> so that means the hcg should be ran up until 15 days after the last test c shot and then clomid/nolva pct can begin a couple days after that?


 Well, aas clearance times are not an exact science but I would run the HCG 10 days out from my last Cyp inject myself and then immediately start Clomid.


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## fray5 (Dec 15, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> Well, aas clearance times are not an exact science but I would run the HCG 10 days out from my last Cyp inject myself and then immediately start Clomid.


 

Heavyiron, thank ya very much for the advice sir!


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## heavyiron (Dec 15, 2010)

fray5 said:


> Heavyiron, thank ya very much for the advice sir!


 No problem and good luck!


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## gsxrguy (Dec 15, 2010)

I had excellent results with hcg 500iu - 750iu a week for the last 4 weeks of my 1200 mg cycle....however i think it would have been better to have used it throughout my cycle based on a number of articles ive read since then. Just my opinion.


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## hackskii (Dec 15, 2010)

Jasonva said:


> NEVER NEVER run hcg after your cycle. It will only suppress you longer... Please just run 40 40 20 20 of nolvadex and .5mg of armidex ed. This will get you back into the green as far as natty test levels are concerned.
> 
> You should have run 500iu HCG e3d while you were own to prevent shrinkage... But you didn't so I'd recommend the nolva and a-dex to tighten you up.


A couple of things here.
First running an AI while androgens are low isnt exactally the best idea, once the gear clears there wont be much aromitization going on after all due to decline in testosterone.
Second lipid profiles can be compromised at the end of the cycle and an AI will only make this problem worse.
If that were not bad enough, libido, mood are all effected with estrogen and none of that will be positive with the use of an AI when it is not needed.

I also disagree with the never and here is why.
During the cycle the pituitary stops sending LH and FSH to the leydig cells and the sertoli cells, this causes atrophy of the nuts making them not responsive post cycle.
Leydig cells comprise about 10% of the total mass of the testicles so useing size is no indication of recovery.
Testicular function is the single most limiting part of recovery post cycle, getting your nuts up to speed is the most important part of this equation hands down.
The pituitary yes will shut down but clomid @ 100mg ED after 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and can increase FSH by 20% to 50%, so this part of the shutdown should not be an issue.
With no intervention the pituitary's LH tends to move within 2 weeks.

So, yah if you have not used it during the cycle, use it after by all means and higher doses that just 500iu three times a week.
With the use of clomid and nolva desentization issues wont be a problem. 



DaRealIronworker said:


> Heavy, you still preaching that HCG volumizes the testes? Sertoli cells volumize, not Leydig...and you know that HCG limits FSH release. But I know you have a study saying increased testosterone (as produced through HCG use) will stimulate the HTPA feedback loop. Don't believe it. Haven't experienced it. HMG, however, WILL do this. Let's get off this HCG myth and use what we know will work.....


 
HCG does in fact force the testicles to function as it is an LH analog and yes it is used to diagnose primary hypogonadism, it is not a myth and is used on young men who's nuts have not dropped to force them into the scrotum.
There are many studies on HCG and men.
HMG is Human Menopausal gonadotropins, similar to HCG but it comes in 75/75 and 150/150 LH/FSH, the LH has less effect than HCG iu wise and if you want to use HMG then use it with HCG in EOD injections.
Again Clomid gives quite a large spike in LH and a good spike in FSH.
If fertility is an issue then by all means run FSH but other than that, it will help some.
but it is hard to source.


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## Jasonva (Dec 16, 2010)

*My take*



hackskii said:


> A couple of things here.
> First running an AI while androgens are low isnt exactally the best idea, once the gear clears there wont be much aromitization going on after all due to decline in testosterone.
> Second lipid profiles can be compromised at the end of the cycle and an AI will only make this problem worse.
> If that were not bad enough, libido, mood are all effected with estrogen and none of that will be positive with the use of an AI when it is not needed.
> ...


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## hackskii (Dec 16, 2010)

You ran that all together there and I lost your point.
Also the half lifes in that post you posted are not correct, by about twice actually.

HCG can and is used in PCT, in fact if you have not used it at all your recovery during PCT will be faster with the use of HCG than not.
Again, the testicles are the single biggest factor in recovery, you get those online and recovery is very easy.

Starting SERMS too early is a mistake.
If androgens are above base levels they wont do anything, nor have any effect on recovery.
They prime the pituitary to fire, they cant fire if androgens are high period, I dont care how much SERMS you take.

Basicly in a nut shell when taking SERMS it suggests to the body that estrogen is low, the only way the body can produce estrogen is with testosterone via way of the aromatase enzyme.
If you were to take estrogen yourself your testosterone production would die, much the way men that are going through sex change do.

Again, if no HCG has been used, recovery will be harder, regardless of when it is taken during or after.

Also, there is no need for a loading phase, those doses are higher than they need be and will not add any benefits other than more liver toxcicity issues.
100mg max on clomid
20mg for nolva, no need to use more it wont matter anyway.

100mg clomid ED for 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and increases FSH by 20% to 50%
Taking 300mg wont change this, not to mention occular toxcicity happens with large doses of clomid.

Leydig cell desensitization isnt an issue with nolva in there and I am talking doses of 2500 EOD with HCG.
I have a PCT developed by a well known doctor that treats recovery for steroid users and has treated over a thousand men.

Who ever is suggesting 80mg of nola a day does not know what he is talking about.


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## Beejis60 (Dec 18, 2010)

aja44 said:


> If heavy says 500iu's 3x per week then that is what you should do.  I was taught to run the HCG all the way through cycle and continue after your last shot while the test ester is clearing your system.  So in this case you should run it the last 2 weeks of your cycle and then the next 2 weeks while the Cyp clears your system and stop just before you start your PCT.
> 
> Heavy, can you confirm this in this case if he is waiting till just the end to run it?



wut?  It's normally 250iu's 2x a week, pinning the HCG the day before you pin your next steroid.


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## heavyiron (Dec 19, 2010)

Beejis60 said:


> wut? It's normally 250iu's 2x a week, pinning the HCG the day before you pin your next steroid.


 250iu's twice weekly will NOT restore ITT levels. Unfortunately there is an article floating around that has misprinted the dose and every thread parrot is squawking the same misinformation.


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## hackskii (Dec 19, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> 250iu's twice weekly will NOT restore ITT levels. Unfortunately there is an article floating around that has misprinted the dose and every thread parrot is squawking the same misinformation.


 
You are absolutly right big man, much of this came from Swale (Dr. John Christler) about his guys not seing any more stimulation from 250iu to 350iu stimulation.
But from my own personal experiance I have used 500iu twice a week throughout my cycle and still had some testicular atrophy.

Post cycle 500iu didnt do anything, and it takes me 20,000iu total after a 10 week cycle of test to regain full testicular function whether it was during, after or a combination of both.

A doctor I know Dr. Scally uses 2500iu EOD x 8 to restore testicular fuction for supressed guys post cycle along with nolva and clomid.

Nice call heavy.


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## heavyiron (Dec 19, 2010)

hackskii said:


> You are absolutly right big man, much of this came from Swale (Dr. John Christler) about his guys not seing any more stimulation from 250iu to 350iu stimulation.
> But from my own personal experiance I have used 500iu twice a week throughout my cycle and still had some testicular atrophy.
> 
> Post cycle 500iu didnt do anything, and it takes me 20,000iu total after a 10 week cycle of test to regain full testicular function whether it was during, after or a combination of both.
> ...


 I think Swale has updated his HCG protocol 2 times since the original writing. The latest was something like 100iu every day but that still is not enough according to studies done on men administering testosterone. Another writer also posts 250iu twice weekly and even cites the research I am referring to but apparently did not read it closely enough. 

I totally agree with you that post cycle using more HCG is merited. Really the most important thing is timing your HCG as you know.


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## Beejis60 (Dec 19, 2010)

I've actually never used HCG, but was just going off what some people really seem to trust the most on another board.  The normal timing, at least from said guy, is to run it for your last 6-8 weeks weeks of a cycle at the dose I stated (which is apparently wrong) and do not during PCT... and you should pin it the day before your next injection of hormones.  It seems like you're stating the contrary, no?


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## hackskii (Dec 20, 2010)

Does not matter as for days you will get a spike from HCG, but to be honest here I noticed best results when taken late afternoon and let the spike of HCG hit me while I sleep.

Another tid bit of info.
Vitamin E helps leydig cell sensitivity so take that with it, wont hurt anyway is it has anti-oxidant properties.
A Dr. Eugene Shippen (world renouned TRT doctor) noticed his guys had less effect with HCG if they were vitamin D defecient.
He put his guy on Vitamin D and they responded better with HCG.
Not to mention it is a very good immune stimulant and is one of the most defecient vitamins in the body.

Actually the day you start gear the process of negative feedback happens, within 2 days LH levels can drop, meaning their direct stimulation to the leydig cells start to happen.
So, waiting probably isnt the preferred method, by day 5 tho I would be runnin that.
Lets not forget it bumps endogenous testosterone production and among other things pregnenolone.


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