# Lose weight and gain muscle



## pbzhb (Feb 28, 2010)

Anyone have some good articles as to why you can't lose weight and gain muscle simultaneously? Need to show to a friend. Thank You in advance.


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## Built (Feb 28, 2010)

You CAN, at first, and if you're fat. I've done it; many have. 
Not MUCH muscle, though. I lost about forty pounds the first year I lifted and dieted, and gained MAYBE eight pounds of muscle that first year. 

Once you've packed on some muscle, this relationship changes. Muscle is metabolically expensive; it burns off a lot of calories. You have to convince your body to invest in building muscle and when you're dieting, this is a pretty damned tough sell.


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## JayCutler (Mar 1, 2010)

pbzhb said:


> Anyone have some good articles as to why you can't lose weight and gain muscle simultaneously? Need to show to a friend. Thank You in advance.


 

you can definitely DECREASE YOUR BODYFAT% and INCREASE MUSCLE!

adding more quality mass (i.e.  muscle) will decrease your bf% assuming no fat gain. 

id post a link but i dont have enough posts to post in thread.


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## DaMayor (Mar 1, 2010)

JayCutler said:


> you can definitely DECREASE YOUR BODYFAT% and INCREASE MUSCLE!
> 
> adding more quality mass (i.e.  muscle) will decrease your bf% assuming no fat gain.
> 
> id post a link but i dont have enough posts to post in thread.



Does Ronnie know you're here?


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## JayCutler (Mar 1, 2010)

DaMayor said:


> Does Ronnie know you're here?


 haha if he does, he about to get the quad stomp


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## Built (Mar 1, 2010)

JayCutler said:


> you can definitely DECREASE YOUR BODYFAT% and INCREASE MUSCLE!


You sure can! Just not at the same time - not unless you're an untrained novice, or on gear. 


JayCutler said:


> adding more quality mass (i.e.  muscle) will decrease your bf% assuming no fat gain.


Yep. Math's awesome.


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## papitosabe (Mar 8, 2010)

i'm no bodybuilder...I run a gym though...i actually was able to gain muscle and shed fat...one thing I learned from the experienced and knowledgeable lifters was to do cardio at a very low heart rate... i noticed that when they did it, they would go at the pace of a snail, they would be on a bike pedalling like they were 90yrs old...you prob already know this but you burn the highest percentage of bodyfat when you sleep... so nutrition was my #1, i did light cardio, but ate as I was building mass... some of my trained staff says it can't be done but i beg to differ...i gained 10lbs over a few months but leaned out my waist...to each his own..


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## Built (Mar 8, 2010)

How well developed were you, and how did you assess your muscle gains - because even guys on gear don't gain 10 lbs of muscle while cutting. How much weight did you lose over this process?


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## DaMayor (Mar 9, 2010)

Built said:


> How well developed were you, and how did you assess your muscle gains - because even guys on gear don't gain 10 lbs of muscle while cutting. How much weight did you lose over this process?




I'm curious about that as well....

I think many mistake the conditioning of *existing muscle *(paired with fat loss) for muscle "gain". In many cases, and perhaps moreso with those who were leading sedentary lifestyles beforehand, you're simply more aware of what you already have because you're _using_ it.


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## papitosabe (Mar 9, 2010)

Built said:


> How well developed were you, and how did you assess your muscle gains - because even guys on gear don't gain 10 lbs of muscle while cutting. How much weight did you lose over this process?


 
i didn't lose...i gained...i wasn't swole or anything...i just noticed big differences but it had to have been at least 6 months...i wouldn't say I was cut but i could see my abs showing although it wasn't ripped and my face and under chin area became thinner...i walked every morning when i woke up for 25 mins...


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## Built (Mar 10, 2010)

Walking in the AM slow like you do for 25 minutes MIGHT burn off 150 calories. This translates to roughly 17 grams of fat - about half an ounce. The walking was NOT ripping you up. You said earlier you gained 10 lbs of muscle in a few months - now you're saying it was over about six months. This is indeed possible. I'd still like to know how you assessed your gains though. 

I'm not trying to bust your chops here, okay - I just want to get my head around how you estimated your numbers. 

I'm glad you saw some nice recomposition - that part is always fun.


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## Merkaba (Mar 10, 2010)

The thing I'm wondering is how are these people measuring there muscle gain when claiming they were cutting and adding muscle...????


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## dave 236 (Mar 10, 2010)

Merkaba said:


> The thing I'm wondering is how are these people measuring there muscle gain when claiming they were cutting and adding muscle...????


Yep or they are bulking while losing fat.They never seem to have anything but anecdotal evidence to offer as to how though.


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## Archangel. (Mar 10, 2010)

pbzhb said:


> Anyone have some good articles as to why you can't lose weight and gain muscle simultaneously? Need to show to a friend. Thank You in advance.



Pretty hard to do naturally man


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## papitosabe (Mar 10, 2010)

ok, so i did light cardio daily, but that am walk thing I "thought" was the thing that helped...i'd been told about low glucose stores when you wake up and how you're body taps into fat mostly...i did light elyptical work as well 4 to 5 x's a week...a few months to me is 6 months..my bad...a couple is 3 or 4 to me but technically its 2..so around 6 months...maybe 5, maybe 7...sorry...i ate pretty damn strict...had a friend that competing and he wrote me up a regimen that was tough as hell but i stuck with...when he changed my workout/nutrition/cardio i remember smelling an amonia type smell that he said was normal because of something which i  can't remember what was causing that....i did go from a not so fit 200 to 209...sorry..not 10 exactly...all I know is i looked alot better in my clothes, my upper body was noticeably bigger and my waist was noticeably leaner...and yea, i was taking alot of supps but no juice or anything like that...juice, thats prob old school lingo...lol


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## Built (Mar 10, 2010)

Nah, we still call it juice lol!

Okay, that sounds eminently doable. You must have been somewhat out of shape when you started, yes?


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## lift (Mar 12, 2010)

like its been said, its completely possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, do your lifting workout and then at least 30 minutes of cardio to get your heart rate up


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## Blogiversum (Mar 12, 2010)

Is kickboxing great for building muscle and loosing fat?


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## Phineas (Mar 12, 2010)

lift said:


> like its been said, its completely possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, do your lifting workout and then at least 30 minutes of cardio to get your heart rate up



All this will do is burn off more calories, which you then need to replace -- otherwise, your body goes into a negative nitrogen balance (a.k.a. catabolic state) and the body is PHYSICALLY UNABLE to create new muscular tissue.

That's it. That is absolutely it. This has been argued so many times, and I don't know why.

Built summed it up: unless you're (a) on performance-enhancing drugs, (b) obese and/or a beginner, and (I'm going to add a thrd) (c) a very VERY rare genetic freak you CANNOT...repeat..CANNOT! build muscle and lose fat at the same time. The body isn't designed to work this way. There are two states you can be in: positive nitrogen balance, where your body is on a caloric surplus and thus able to create tissue, or a negative nitrogen balance, where your body is in a caloric deficit and thus unable to create tissue.

When people claim they gained muscle mass while cutting/dieting it's likely an illusion. They'll say "NO! BUT MY UPPER BODY GOT BIGGER EVEN THOUGH MY WAIST SHRUNK!" Well, look at it this way: generally, your waist is smaller than your upper body, and while for the obese individual this isn't the case if they lose that fat they're going to notice (especially if they've been lifting) not only a leaner appearance but a totally different shape to their body (v-shaped as opposed to flat). What this does is create the illusion that certain body parts have shrunk and/or grown significantly, when really it was just a drop in bodyfat. Don't be fooled.

I used to be a long distance runner. Now, a year and half into running, my upper body and particularly my lats have grown very wide. This has created an illusion that my waist is smaller -- even though it's the same. Likewise, I was recently thinking I was gaining sudden mass in my chest -- when really it's that my rib cage has expanded from my squatting and pullover combinations.

Your body will create many illusions. Don't fool yourself on what is going on. You can muscle with minimal fat gain -- yes. However, you can't build muscle while losing fat simulteanously.


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## DaMayor (Mar 12, 2010)

If I might...
Q&A - Fat Loss | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald


I used to refer to this as "trading".(not knowing how else to describe it at the time) ....and while it is possible, I think it is _very rarely _possible.


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## Marat (Mar 12, 2010)

lift said:


> like its been said, its completely possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, do your lifting workout and then at least 30 minutes of cardio to get your heart rate up



I feel that we need to make this issue a sticky. This question is seemingly being brought up week after week and active members are spending a lot of time writing comprehensive responses. It seems as though those bringing up this question rarely wants to discuss the matter, but rather they bring it up and then disappears after another post or two. Perhaps if we had a sticky, similar to Built's Getting Started link,  we can point to that instead of having generous posters like Phineas spend a lot of time writing up the same mini-article.


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## papitosabe (Mar 13, 2010)

Phineas said:


> All this will do is burn off more calories, which you then need to replace -- otherwise, your body goes into a negative nitrogen balance (a.k.a. catabolic state) and the body is PHYSICALLY UNABLE to create new muscular tissue.
> 
> That's it. That is absolutely it. This has been argued so many times, and I don't know why.
> 
> ...


 
so if you're body burns fat while you sleep and pretty much during the day, albeit very very minimal...and if i was to lift and eat right, wouldn't my body repair itself therefore building muscle, again minimally while I sleep as well?...we'll have to agree to disagree...there's as much info, trainers, so called experts that will argue and prove pts to both... i think you read something or was taught by someone that its not possible, so you'll be sticking to your guns no matter what...


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## DaMayor (Mar 13, 2010)

" Question: Is it possible to stay at the same weight and replace fat weight with LBM, by making decent strength gains over time? (i.e by not actually leaning out and then mass packing etc). Can the body use the extra calories that are needed for new muscle gain from existing fat stores on the body?  I???m assuming this is the case for beginners, but how about intermediates/advanced trainees?  If so, roughly what sort of time frame would be needed to say drop 10lbs fat and replace with the same amount in muscle? Thanks.

Answer: I???m willing to argue that if there is a single question (or related set of questions) that comes up perennially in the field of training and nutrition, it???s something akin to the above.  The idea of ???gaining muscle while losing fat??? in general or, better yet ???replacing every pound of fat lost with muscle??? is sort of the holy grail of training and nutrition and a great deal of approaches that are supposed to generate that very thing have been thrown out over the years.

In essence, this is the basis of bodyrecomposition, you train and eat in such a way as to end up with more muscle and less fat than you had before.  People on forums either want to know how to accomplish the above or make statements such as ???I want to gain muscle without gaining weight.??? implying that they are replacing every pound of lost fat with the exact same pound of muscle.   Others will hide it in the math of the situation, wanting to move from one weight/body fat percentage to another without recognizing what that implies for the numerical changes that they are seeking.

Now, when I was younger and only thought I knew what I was talking about, I would often say that the above was impossible to accomplish.  In hindsight, impossible was a bit too strong of a term; clearly it???s not impossible as it does happen.  But it can sure be difficult depending on the situation.

There are a handful of situations where the combination of muscle gain and fat loss occur relatively readily.  The first of those is in overfat beginners.  I want to really stress the term overfat in the above sentence.  This phenomenon doesn???t happen in lean beginners for reasons I???m going to explain in a second.

A second situation where this phenomenon occurs readily is folks returning from a layoff.  Folks who are previously lean and muscular but who get out of shape (whether deliberately or not) often find that they get back into shape much faster than they did initially: they seem to magically replace fat with muscle.  In fact, with the advent of before/after transformation pictures for supplements, this has become a growth industry: people who are already in great shape will deliberately get out of great shape so that they can quickly reattain their previous shape in a short period.  Apparently there is huge money in selling such before/after pictures to help move supplements.

But that???s not really what the question was asking which had more to do with this idea: can the body use calories stored in fat cells to support muscle growth, essentially shunting calories from fat to muscle and achieving the holy grail: fat loss with concomitant muscle gain.

And, as a generality, this tends to be difficult for reasons that I discussed in some detail in the Ultimate Diet 2.0 and Calorie Partitioning Part 1 and Calorie Partitioning Part 2.

And this brings me back to my comment about overfat beginners as I think this explains some of the physiology involved.   Please note that I???ve never really seen this topic studied directly and much of what I???m going to write is based on either observation or other known aspects of physiology that I feel tie into the issue.

So consider an individual who is carrying quite a bit of fat and not very much muscle.  Your typical overfat beginner trainee.  Let???s look a bit at what???s going on physiologically for this person.

One consequence of the excess body fat is a systemic insulin resistance and this is especially true for fat cells.  Basically, when fat cells start to get full, they become more resistant to further caloric storage.  That is to say: insulin resistance actually develops as an adaptation to obesity and this is one reason that obesity is often associated with things like hyperglycemia, hypertriglyercidemia and hypercholesterolemia; the fat cells get so full that they stop accepting more calories.  So instead of being stored, glucose, triglycerides and cholesterol sit in the bloodstream.  In that vein, and quite contrary to popular belief, insulin resistance actually predicts weight loss and insulin sensitivity weight gain but that???s another topic for another day.

So we have a situation in overfat folks where fat cells are sort of trying to ???push calories away??? from the fat cells.  That???s point #1.

The second thing to consider is the untrained state and the fact that when people start training, they always make gains in both strength and muscle mass faster.  That is, beginners have the potential to gain muscle at a much faster rate (and more easily in terms of the stimulus needed) than someone trained.  As well, keep in mind that regular training (both resistance training and cardio) improve muscular insulin sensitivity and nutrient uptake in that one specific tissue (training is probably the most powerful tool in our arsenal to improve nutrient uptake in that specific a fashion).  That???s point #2.

So consider the combination: we have a situation with overfat beginners where fat cells are very insulin resistant and essentially trying to push calories away.  Now we throw training on that, not only sending a muscle building stimulus via training but increasing nutrient uptake into skeletal muscle through effects on skeletal muscle nutrient uptake/insulin sensitivity.

And what happens under those circumstances is exactly what you???d expect: the body appears to take calories out of fat cells and use them to build muscle.  And this is effectively what is happening due to the combination of the above two factors. But the combination of the two is required.   A lean beginner won???t see the above because they don???t have the fat to lose/fat energy to shunt to the muscle.  And as they get more advanced, the rate of muscle gain slows way down.  Again, it???s the combination of overfat and beginner status that comes together here to let some magic occur.

And even there you???re not going to see the body replacing one pound of fat with one pound of muscle for very long.  The rates of the different processes are simply too different.  What you might see is an initial shift where muscle ???replaces??? fat due to the calorie shunting effect but invariably it slows down and either muscle gain or (more frequently) fat loss becomes dominant.

Now, having looked at the specific situation of an overfat beginner, let???s look at what happens as one of two things (or both happen): the person becomes leaner and/or achieves a higher training status.

A known adaptation to fat loss is an improvement in insulin sensitivity especially in fat cells.  This is part of why fat loss becomes more difficult as folks get leaner as well as why the risk of weight/fat gain is higher at the end of the diet (you???re MORE insulin sensitive).  This means that the fat cells not only have less stored fat to give up but it becomes more difficult to get it out of there.

I discussed some of the reasons for this in detail in The Stubborn Fat Solution along with protocols to get around it.  But the point is made: as folks get leaner, getting fat out of fat cells becomes more difficult.  Some of the hormonal mechanisms involved are also discussed in Calorie Partitioning Part 1 and Calorie Partitioning Part 2.

Furthermore, as folks become better trained, it becomes more difficult to gain muscle under any condition.  The training stimulus is higher and the impact of training is lessened.

So the situation that was in place for the overfat beginner has reversed itself in someone who is leaner and/or better trained.  Fat cells are no longer insulin resistant and ???pushing fat calories??? away; quite in fact they are ready to take up excess calories at any time. And since training has a lesser impact on muscle growth, the odds of getting the calorie shunting effect becomes lower and lower approaching nil.  Again, that???s on top of all of the hormonal stuff discussed in the above articles (e.g. fat loss and muscle gain requires different hormonal situations).

Which is why a lot of the approaches advocated for ???gaining muscle while losing fat??? aren???t very effective.  In fact, I???d tend to argue that most people???s attempts to achieve the above results in them simply spinning their wheels, making no progress towards either goal.  Because invariably they set up a situation where neither training nor diet is optimized for either fat loss or muscle gain.  Calories are too high for fat loss and too low to support muscle gains and outside of that one overfat beginner situation, the physiology simply isn???t going to readily allow what they want to happen to happen.

But more specific approaches can be effective in achieving this goal.  The Ultimate Diet 2.0 has often generated muscle gains while people dieted to single digit body fat levels (I???d note that the gain in muscle never reaches equality with the fat loss) but it also alternates specific dieting and gaining phases during the week.

Many of the intermittent fasting (IF???ing) approaches do this more acutely and I???d suggest anybody interested go to Martin Berkhan???s Lean Gains site for more information about IF.  There are others, things like every other day refeeds (EOD refeeds) which are discussed in some detail in my The Bodyrecomposition Support Forums.  But all of those approaches are alternating dieting phases (lowered calories, a net ???catabolic??? state) with gaining phases (increased calories, a net ???anabolic??? state).

But none of those approaches generate a muscle gain to equal the fat loss, at best they generate a small muscle gain in the face of a much larger fat loss (e.g. someone might lose a lot of fat while gaining a pound or two of muscle or what have you).  But for the non-beginner/non-returning from a layoff trainee that???s about the best you???re going to get.  Potential rates of muscle gain are never going to approach the potential rate of fat loss once folks are past the beginner stage.  Even in the beginner stage, it???s generally always easier to lose fat much faster than you can gain muscle.

So the idea of replacing every pound of lost fat with exactly one pound of muscle will be essentially impossible for the intermediate/advanced trainee.  There???s simply not enough fat/the fat cells dont want to ???give up their calories??? and the ability to stimulate rapid muscle gains isn???t there any more.

A followup question might be what about fatter but more advanced trainees.  Certainly in that situation, fat cell insulin sensitivity/etc. can approach what is occurring with the overfat beginner but there is still the issue of rate of muscle gain being drastically slowed.  It???s probably possible briefly at the start of the diet to get some caloric shunting but it???s never going to approach a 1:1 gain in muscle with fat loss; the potential rate of fat loss (1-2 lbs/week) to rates of muscle gain (0.5 lbs/week if you???re lucky) simply doesn???t exist.

As a final comment, I can say without hesitation that someone will post in the comments that they managed to achieve the above results in some form or fashion.  And while there are always going to be exceptions to any generality, that doesn???t tend to disprove the generality.  And generally speaking, the above is what happens in the real world."


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## TrojanMan60563 (Mar 13, 2010)

I think it possible with drugs or great genetics. I've lost 20lbs and put an inch and a half on my arms naturally over a time frame of about 4 months. Some of that could be contributed to muscle memory as well.


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## jcar1016 (Mar 13, 2010)

Blogiversum said:


> Is kickboxing great for building muscle and loosing fat?


 It can be it really depends on how much you train and your diet


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## WeightGainNet (Mar 13, 2010)

Some people are able to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. Usually beginners who have never worked out or people who are genetically gifted.

But if you go this route your progress will be painfully slow.

It's better to choose 1 goal and stick with it. Either do a bulking phase or a cutting phase.


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## pbzhb (Mar 17, 2010)

m11 said:


> I feel that we need to make this issue a sticky. This question is seemingly being brought up week after week and active members are spending a lot of time writing comprehensive responses. It seems as though those bringing up this question rarely wants to discuss the matter, but rather they bring it up and then disappears after another post or two. Perhaps if we had a sticky, similar to Built's Getting Started link,  we can point to that instead of having generous posters like Phineas spend a lot of time writing up the same mini-article.



No no I am still here just reading, I began this thread to gain knowledge on this because I had already known from previous research on this topic that it was not possible unless the special circumstances stated allowed it to be.


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## downtown (Mar 21, 2010)

This is a trick question!  Is the question really " Lose fat and gain muscle"> or is it " Lose Wieght and gain muscle"?

Cuz losing fat and gain muscle is possible, but losing wieght and gaining muscle, ehh, im not so inclined to believe this.  Muscle weighs more than fat, so if your losing fat and gaining muscle at the same time then your actual wieght wont change much.


BTW Carb cycling is a great way to lose FAT and gain muscle at the same time, im currently doing it for an upcoming show, im judging muscle growth by measurements not by the mirror or by the scale.


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## Marat (Mar 21, 2010)

downtown said:


> BTW Carb cycling is a great way to lose FAT and gain muscle at the same time, im currently doing it for an upcoming show, im judging muscle growth by measurements not by the mirror or by the scale.



The concept of losing fat and gain muscle at the same time seems to be a hot topic nowadays. The stance that we are going with here is that it cannot be done for biochemical reasons. This is a topic that we probably aren't going to budge on unless researchers prove that what we understand about biochemistry is wrong. 

While carb cycling is fantastic, it won't allow you do gain and lose simultaneously. Additionally, what kind of measurements? Tape measure? Especially because you are lean, even small physiological changes, unrelated to muscle growth, may make tape measurements fluctuate. A more concrete way of measuring would be to get a DEXA scan before and after you begin your cycle.

Here is a pretty good thread where the topic gets debated pretty extensively. There are also more than this one if you poke around.

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/t...-gain-muscle-lose-fat-same-time-bullshit.html


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## TrojanMan60563 (Mar 21, 2010)

I love science, but I think the way researchers think is so stupid....the whole science proves it until otherwise proven wrong. The controlled studies that are done in science require variables to be consistant in order to "prove" something to be true or false. With things like genetics, food, supplements, and individual muscle response (probably controlled by genetics) being something that is not the same from person to person I don't know how it can be proven to be impossible to gain muscle while losing fat. 

I think its very possilble for genetics/drugs to allow you to gain muscle while losing fat to some degree. If you have a good amount of bodyfat I don't see why some peoples body could not use that fat for energy to function while using the protein you eat to help build muscle. Is there there proof beyond doubt this idea is not possible in anyone?


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## Marat (Mar 21, 2010)

Right, it can't be proven. We can only have evidence to suggest one way or the other. Also, I think we are all assuming that the bodybuilder is natural and that we are dealing with a relatively average person. Remember that 'good genetics' just means that favorable alleles are expressed, but there is nothing particularly absurd going on, they are still people. This favorableness can be recreated with drugs and to a degree, with your diet.


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## Marat (Mar 21, 2010)

TrojanMan60563 said:


> Is there there proof beyond doubt this idea is not possible in anyone?



Check out Kevin Levrone. His ability to manipulate his physique is impressive


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## downtown (Mar 21, 2010)

Im using tape measurements, and calipers weekly.  So far ive lost 2 inches off my waist 3% BF via calipers ( i know there not the absolute best tool) and ive gained 1 inch across the chest and .5 inch on the arms, legs have stayed the same so far there just getting vieny.  There is a slight bit of enhancement but im still growing and lossing fat.


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## TrojanMan60563 (Mar 21, 2010)

m11 said:


> Check out Kevin Levrone. His ability to manipulate his physique is impressive



I agree...you said unil science proves otherwise we have to go with you cannot build muscle while losing fat... I am saying science is wrong...I've seen it done such as in Kevin Levrone's report...and with factors like diet and genetics I don't think science can get enough subjects that are identical to prove it cannot be done.


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## Marat (Mar 21, 2010)

Richard Gears said:


> I followed that video journal of his.
> 
> You really think he's natty? He swears he is but who knows. Thats some impressive muscle memory and genetics going on i suppose.



I don't think he was natty when he was competing (has he claimed that he was?). For that journal, I dont think there's a way to know, we can either take his word or not --- he was trying to pimp a product at the same time too. However, I don't think that it's impossible that he was natural during that period of time



TrojanMan60563 said:


> I agree...you said unil science proves otherwise we have to go with you cannot build muscle while losing fat... I am saying science is wrong...I've seen it done such as in Kevin Levrone's report...and with factors like diet and genetics I don't think science can get enough subjects that are identical to prove it cannot be done.



I'm on your side on this one. I think people like Levrone are special cases because they fit outside the norms. The limiting factors that stop an individual from being able to do so are physiological in nature --- one can take the appropriate drugs in order to manipulate their biochemistry. Kevin Levrone (and other professionals), likely have physiological profiles (abnormal levels of test, very low insulin resistance with high sensitivity) that fall outside of the norms. When you mix that with drugs, you can see absurd results in those individuals.

However, those types of individuals typically aren't the ones that frequent these types of forums --- at least they probably aren't asking for advice on how to lose 50 pounds. Therefore, when I say that the process cannot be done, you can probably put a "for all intents and purposes" in front of it.


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## Marat (Mar 21, 2010)

Richard Gears said:


> Although going from sedentary with a lackluster diet to completely devoted to training and diet can be dramatic.



The extent of his "rebound effect" is also astounding. It's outside of what I thought was possible.

I don't really have much of an explanation of his situation. 

And yea, even for a geared individual, his gains were ridiculous.


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## TrojanMan60563 (Mar 22, 2010)

If he was clean imagine what he is like on gear! He might be able to train 12 weeks out from a show and come in 2nd


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