# Front squats in the smith machine?



## davegmb (May 31, 2010)

I always do my front squats in the smith machine, dont use the smith machine for back squats but front squats i find too arkward without the smith machine. Whats the verdict, good thing or do you have a problem with it?


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## gtbmed (May 31, 2010)

I think it sort of takes away from one of the major benefits of the lift.  Front squats require a lot of core stabilization and if you do them on the smith you're taking that away.

It's like doing zerchers in the smith machine - what's the point?


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## fufu (May 31, 2010)

What do you find awkward about front squats with a free bar?

People will generally feel awkward and uncomfortable when doing a front squat for the first time, especially if they have been back squatting for a long time prior. 

It is the same way with any movement, really. I don't remember doing any exercise for the first time without it feeling awkward. Sometimes it is better to to try to fix something that is uncomfortable rather than discarded it all together.

Plus, the degree of total body stabilization and utilization will not occur with the smith machine front squat. Whether or not that is important to you is up to you.


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## davegmb (May 31, 2010)

fufu said:


> What do you find awkward about front squats with a free bar?
> 
> People will generally feel awkward and uncomfortable when doing a front squat for the first time, especially if they have been back squatting for a long time prior.
> 
> ...


 
Come on, yeah any new excercise is demanding fufu ill give you that but the front squat is tough. Ive tried the grip where you have it in your fingers with your wrists bent back but the strain on my wrists felt like i was going to do some damage, obviously arent flexible enough for it. I then tried the crossed arm approach but couldnt balance that with the free bar so used it on the smith machine and felt great, still get sore quads the day after.


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## gtbmed (May 31, 2010)

Work on your wrist flexibility.


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## CaptainNapalm (May 31, 2010)

I would rather be doing extra sets of barbell squats than smith machine front squats at all.  You have to get use to the movement and start off with very light weight in comparison to what you normally squat.  Slowly progress with the weight and before you know it the movement will not feel that akward anymore.


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## davegmb (May 31, 2010)

gtbmed said:


> Work on your wrist flexibility.


 
How do you do that?


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## DOMS (May 31, 2010)

davegmb said:


> Come on, yeah any new excercise is demanding fufu ill give you that but the front squat is tough. Ive tried the grip where you have it in your fingers with your wrists bent back but the strain on my wrists felt like i was going to do some damage, obviously arent flexible enough for it. I then tried the crossed arm approach but couldnt balance that with the free bar so used it on the smith machine and felt great, still get sore quads the day after.



I can't stand the bent wrist hold.  Ugh...it blows.  I do the crossover.  The real secret is to raise your elbows up so that you create a cradle with your delts and traps to hold the bar.  I then use my hands to keep the bar from pressing to hard on my throat.

Your posts begs the question: how do you hold it when you do it on the Smith machine?


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## Built (May 31, 2010)

Do what I did to learn fronts: use straps.

I've posted about this before:



Built said:


> I couldn't do them that way at first either. What saved me was the "Poliquin strap trick":
> 
> Poliquin strap trick for front squats
> u-tube demo of someone using them for a 500-lb front squat
> ...


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## davegmb (May 31, 2010)

Thanks built, ill give straps a try. DOMS, maybe my answer was slightly confusing, but i use the crossover technique on the smith machine, just struggled with the cross over when trying to hold a free weight barbell, but like you mentioned probably never had it positioned correctly.


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## davegmb (May 31, 2010)

Built said:


> Do what I did to learn fronts: use straps.
> 
> I've posted about this before:


 
The will brink youtube demo has been removed for some reason, gutted. The strap idea looks great though.


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## Built (May 31, 2010)

I couldn't manage Will Brink's version anyway, but the strap thing worked a charm - AND it works on your flexibility and form; over time you'll be able to do clean grip but who cares, just use the straps and you're fine. Keep those elbows forward and UP.


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## GFR (May 31, 2010)

Love smith squats, front or back.


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## Merkaba (May 31, 2010)

I've tried the straps for front squats and like it.  

As far as smith machines...when do you plan on leaving this crutch?  A few weeks or months down the road when you've magically gotten your form and coordination down, somehow?  Drop the weight even if its down to just a bar and learn and develop the strength, coordination and flexibility, and leave the smith to put your bags under or lean on and catch your breath in between real squats.


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## Flathead (Jun 1, 2010)

I think it's ok, but as soon as you get comfortable with the exercise, switch to free bar. The Smith machine is defiantly  not allowing you to to get the most out of this movement.


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## davegmb (Jun 1, 2010)

Merkaba said:


> I've tried the straps for front squats and like it.
> 
> As far as smith machines...when do you plan on leaving this crutch? A few weeks or months down the road when you've magically gotten your form and coordination down, somehow? Drop the weight even if its down to just a bar and learn and develop the strength, coordination and flexibility, and leave the smith to put your bags under or lean on and catch your breath in between real squats.


 
LOL   now now Merkaba, you know what they say about sarcasm, 'lowest form of witt' and all that. Yeah, im happy to try front squats with the straps now that built has shown me the way, just couldnt ever see me getting comfortable with the conventional way but well see, maybe ill figure them out one day. Have to drop the weight though like you say.


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## Built (Jun 1, 2010)

davegmb, once you get used to the strap-trick, you'll find your fronts come up pretty fast. 

You ever do power cleans?


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## cc-10 (Jun 1, 2010)

i love front squats...there's no use for the smith though....it's awkward at first but I like to rest the bar on my collarbone and right against my throat.


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## Mags (Jun 2, 2010)

Start over again. Approach front squats as if new. Hard to do, I know, but it's better in the long run IMO. Lower the weight. Master the form. Once you've done that, the weight will rise soon enough. Obviously, as you're probably already aware, don't expect to be shifting as much weight as with standard squats (I feel you can stimulate the quads just as effectively with front squats despite less weight, anyway. Less stress to your joints, too).

Also, I know a lot of folks use the Smith Machine to 'get used' to the movement, then make the transition to a free bar. However, I think you might as well start as you mean to go on. Gaining confidence and experience with a fixed or stabilized bar is misleading for you psychologically and physically. Many tend to move onto the free bar and load it up with the same sort of weight they used with the Smith, feeling that they're now familiar enough with the movement. Truth is they usually aren't. Their conpensatory/stabilizer muscles will not have been fully prepped from fixed-bar front squats. This can lead these muscles to work inefficiently or fail completely, thus effecting form. And, in worse case scenario, lead to injury.

As for the way of holding the bar, I prefer crossing my arms, forming a cradle and having it rest on my delts with it locked in place by my collar bone. It used to hurt a bit where the bar digs in - particularly when the weight increases - but as soon as you add a bit more muscle, it cushions the bar to an extent. If it _really_ hurts, wrap the bar in a thinnish hand towel for added comfort, or apply a bit of spongey pipe lagging you can pick up from any plumbers'/builders' merchants. I've seen a few other guys do this. I used to use the pain (it was annoying rather than crippling, for me) to my advantage, particularly on my last and heaviest set. When it tug in, I used the pain/annoyance factor to summon more power. The harder the bar pressed down, the harder I pushed up - sort of engaged a 'me against the weight' aspect to the exercise. Sounds daft, but 'the angrier Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets'  Whatever gets you completing a good, successful set, right?


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## davegmb (Jun 2, 2010)

Built said:


> davegmb, once you get used to the strap-trick, you'll find your fronts come up pretty fast.
> 
> You ever do power cleans?


 
No never tried them, do hang clean and press but never power cleans. Ill have a llok at how to do them, do they hit the quads mainly too?


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## davegmb (Jun 2, 2010)

Mags said:


> but 'the angrier Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets'  Whatever gets you completing a good, successful set, right?


 

LOL i like it, bet your a terrifying sight in the gym when you front squat. I tried builts suggestion today with the straps with a light weight as you can see from my journal and it went well, but ill probably try what you suggested MAGS on my warm ups until i get my confidence up enough to lose the straps.


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## juggernaut (Jun 2, 2010)

I prefer to do dumbbell front squats when possible. I cant do them on 5x5 because the weight is too heavy for me to clean. I've done smith front squats and free bar squats. I find that I can balance myself better with the smith machine or I tend to tip forward. This doesnt happen when I use dumbbell fronts or when I use the smith. 

To do these effectively, watch the video






YouTube Video











Also when I do the db version, my obliques get a serious beating with them. My sides look like to slabs on the sides because of this.


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## Merkaba (Jun 2, 2010)

davegmb said:


> LOL   now now Merkaba, you know what they say about sarcasm, 'lowest form of witt' and all that. Yeah, im happy to try front squats with the straps now that built has shown me the way, just couldnt ever see me getting comfortable with the conventional way but well see, maybe ill figure them out one day. Have to drop the weight though like you say.



I really wasn't being sarcastic...


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## Phineas (Jun 2, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> I prefer to do dumbbell front squats when possible. I cant do them on 5x5 because the weight is too heavy for me to clean. I've done smith front squats and free bar squats. I find that I can balance myself better with the smith machine or I tend to tip forward. This doesnt happen when I use dumbbell fronts or when I use the smith.
> 
> To do these effectively, watch the video
> 
> ...



Isn't that way too much forward lean for a front squat? Aren't front squats supposed to be performed with an upright torso?


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## juggernaut (Jun 2, 2010)

As upright as you can muster; as long as your abs are tight and you can actually feel them tightening, it's good.


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## MyK (Jun 2, 2010)

how much weight do you guys do with the front squat in comparison with your back squat.


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## juggernaut (Jun 2, 2010)

approximately a third less


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## davegmb (Jun 2, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> I prefer to do dumbbell front squats when possible. I cant do them on 5x5 because the weight is too heavy for me to clean. I've done smith front squats and free bar squats. I find that I can balance myself better with the smith machine or I tend to tip forward. This doesnt happen when I use dumbbell fronts or when I use the smith.
> 
> To do these effectively, watch the video
> 
> ...


 
Ill have an experiment with these too


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## sassy69 (Jun 3, 2010)

Built said:


> davegmb, once you get used to the *strap-trick*, you'll find your fronts come up pretty fast.



Two words.

Fucking.

Brilliant.


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## juggernaut (Jun 3, 2010)

sassy69 said:


> Two words.
> 
> Fucking.
> 
> Brilliant.



Sass, thats actually 2 sentences...


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## sassy69 (Jun 3, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> Sass, thats actually 2 sentences...



Actually on the interwebs you can use punctuation for emphasis - e.g. a "period" implies stop and take a breath.

Thus, two words, emphasized by use of dramatic timing & delivery.


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## juggernaut (Jun 3, 2010)

sassy69 said:


> Actually on the interwebs you can use punctuation for emphasis - e.g. a "period" implies stop and take a breath.
> 
> Thus, two words, emphasized by use of dramatic timing & delivery.



ahh....really...?


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## sassy69 (Jun 3, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> ahh....really...?



Yes.

Really.


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## juggernaut (Jun 4, 2010)

sassy69 said:


> Yes.
> 
> Really.



you....complete. 

me.


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## Will Brink (Jun 4, 2010)

davegmb said:


> The will brink youtube demo has been removed for some reason, gutted. The strap idea looks great though.



Straps didn't work for me. Alternative grip






YouTube Video











Semi standard "Olympic" grip






YouTube Video











Cross over never worked for me


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## Built (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks for posting that, Will. I meant to but was too lazy to find the link. 

I've tried that one and while straps don't work for you, that grip doesn't work for me - but it's great to have a selection of options. ONE of 'em will work!


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## Will Brink (Jun 4, 2010)

Built said:


> Thanks for posting that, Will. I meant to but was too lazy to find the link.



'Cause you don't wub me anymore...


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## Phineas (Jun 4, 2010)

Okay, so in both those videos there was some forward lean. Is that okay for front squats? When I do them I'm about 15 degrees shy of an upright torso and I feel some stress on my back. Not pain, just stress. But, I've seen instructional videos where the person is squatting practically low-bar! I thought they had to be done with a completely upright torso. This is why I've refrained from them the last 8 months or so. I thought maybe I was doing them wrong and risking lower back problems.


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## fufu (Jun 4, 2010)

Phineas said:


> Okay, so in both those videos there was some forward lean. Is that okay for front squats? When I do them I'm about 15 degrees shy of an upright torso and I feel some stress on my back. Not pain, just stress. But, I've seen instructional videos where the person is squatting practically low-bar! I thought they had to be done with a completely upright torso. This is why I've refrained from them the last 8 months or so. I thought maybe I was doing them wrong and risking lower back problems.



Some slight forward bend will always occur. As long as you are keeping your spine neutral,from cervical to lumbar, you should be fine.

The forward lean is necessary to compensate for the hips traveling backwards. If you try keeping your spine perfectly perpendicular to the floor you will probably fall over. It is not a stable position to be in. 

If you sit back in the squat while keeping your torso perpendicular to the floor, the heavy barbell will not be over your center of mass. That is not a good position to be in the exert upward force. 

So basically you mainly need to concentrate on keeping the bar over your COM and keeping the spine neutral. Everybody is built differently so everyone articulates a bit differently.


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## fufu (Jun 4, 2010)

MyK 3.0 said:


> how much weight do you guys do with the front squat in comparison with your back squat.



When I could front squat 225 for ten reps I was probably back squatting around 300 for the same reps.


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## davegmb (Jun 4, 2010)

Will Brink said:


> Straps didn't work for me. Alternative grip
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Thanks Will, the straps built suggested worked well when i tried them but enjoyed your video (esp the funky sound track lol) and will give that grip a try next week on my quad day. Is it me or do you look like Billy Crystal?! has anyone said that before?


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## Hoglander (Jun 4, 2010)

That's rude. I'm liking these front squat novelties. I'm sure the really Billy would too.


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## davegmb (Jun 4, 2010)

Hoglander said:


> That's rude. I'm liking these front squat novelties. I'm sure the really Billy would too.


 
Why's it rude, its just a bit of fun and a compliment isnt it? Hes a big time film star and funny man, im sure Will can take it!?


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## Hoglander (Jun 4, 2010)

Because Billy taught Carrot Top all of his secrets. IS THAT FUNNY???!!!

Let's show some respect here.


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## davegmb (Jun 4, 2010)

Hoglander said:


> Because Billy taught Carrot Top all of his secrets. IS THAT FUNNY???!!!
> 
> Let's show some respect here.


 
I dont know who carrot top is so im a bit confused, but im getting the feeling that im being told off so ill apologise, no disrespect intended at all just a bit of observation and fun thats all.


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## sassy69 (Jun 4, 2010)

davegmb said:


> I dont know who carrot top is so im a bit confused, but im getting the feeling that im being told off so ill apologise, no disrespect intended at all just a bit of observation and fun thats all.



Carrot Top is a comedian (hangs out in Vegas these days I guess - his schtick is his goofy red hair - visual & prop comedy) who got all jacked up and studdish with some steroids and rather tragic cosmetic surgery.


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## davegmb (Jun 4, 2010)

sassy69 said:


> Carrot Top is a comedian (hangs out in Vegas these days I guess - his schtick is his goofy red hair - visual & prop comedy) who got all jacked up and studdish with some steroids and rather tragic cosmetic surgery.


 *frightening*  but thanks for the info


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## Will Brink (Jun 5, 2010)

davegmb said:


> Is it me or do you look like Billy Crystal?! has anyone said that before?



That's a first.


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## Phineas (Jun 5, 2010)

fufu said:


> Some slight forward bend will always occur. As long as you are keeping your spine neutral,from cervical to lumbar, you should be fine.
> 
> The forward lean is necessary to compensate for the hips traveling backwards. If you try keeping your spine perfectly perpendicular to the floor you will probably fall over. It is not a stable position to be in.
> 
> ...



Excellent! Thanks man! My back was always neutral. I just was worried that I shouldn't have any forward lean. I'll definitely put these back in at some point. They're the only one of the bilateral squat variations besides back and box squats that I ever liked. Although, I'm yet to try Sumo Squats.


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## gtbmed (Jun 5, 2010)

Have you ever done overhead squats?


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## Phineas (Jun 5, 2010)

Tried them in warmups. Like them, but would do them only if I was using more than one or two lower pushes. I'd rather devote that slot to back squats.


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## Will Brink (Jun 6, 2010)

davegmb said:


> Why's it rude, its just a bit of fun and a compliment isnt it? Hes a big time film star and funny man, im sure Will can take it!?



I have been called worse, that's for sure.


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## juggernaut (Jun 6, 2010)

gtbmed said:


> Have you ever done overhead squats?



Holy crap those are great...wear a belt for support though.


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