# Havoc First Time Cycle.



## synthetickid (Jul 11, 2012)

*1) Age - 19 (*gasp* continue reading please... )

2) Weight and Percent BodyFat - 160/ 12% ( *gasp* continue reading ... )

3) Years of Consistant Training experience - 5 ( *gasp* )

4) Previous Cycle experience - 0% ( *gasp* stop being so surprised already... )

5) Training routine and Diet - Training constantly changing / 3000cal a day + 250g protein daily 
Goal is 250-450g( yes 1lb which is also about 1800 calories ) protein on cycle 

6) Cycle Goals - Gain about 8-10lb, lose some bf%

First )Yes I know i am 19 and "You should not take pro hormones if you are below the age of 21"
I have done enough research and found time to talk with many people who have taken AAS or Pro hormones from the ages of 14-19

Second ) I know everyone reacts differently and i have not yet finished growing and can damage my endocrine system

Third ) I am willing to take the risks

Fourth ) I am taking the risks 

Fifth ) Please do not take offense but you cannot dissuade me from taking Pro Hormones but what you knowledgeable veterans can do for this first timer is to critique his cycle and make sure that he is safe ( yes he is below 21...we understand at this point and can have a mature discussion that does not involve flaming and dissuasion )

Sixth ) Thank you for taking the time to read this and please help me run a safe cycle because beyond all doubts I am running this and I can guarantee you this 100%( not a money back guarantee )


Cycle info:

*Havoc - Week 1- 5 ( 30/30/40/40/50 )
Cycle Assist - Week 1 - 5 
     Taurine - Week 1 - 5 ( 10g daily )



PCT Start - 


       Clomid- Week 6 - 10 ( 50/50/25/25 )
 Lean Xtreme - Week 6 - 10 ( 3 caps ) 
S.A.N MyoTEST - Week 7 -11
Creatine Mono - Week 6 - 11


Supplements run through entire cycle everyday :
Liv 52 
Multi vitamin
Fish oil
100mcgx3 Mod grf , 100mcgx3 Ipamorelin ( for the last 2 months and probably next 12 ) ( also i suppose that this will help me keep my gains throughout pct )


_________________End Cycle Info ___Start Questions______________


I have read that you can dose Havoc higher than 50mg and get some serious results, though it may not be a beginners place to test this

these are possible alternative havoc dosages, what do you think

30/40/50/60/70
30/40/40/50/60
30/40/50/50/60
___________________________________--

I have read that Havoc can turn into phera after a while and all production of Havoc has been ceased from RPN and Primaforce who they sold their rights to.

Will it be ok to buy RPN Havoc and have confidence the formula is still intact 


Also I know everyone says primaforce Havoc and RPN are the exact same since RPN sold it to Primaforce, so should i get the primaforce havoc since it will be relatively "newer"?

________________________________________________


Should i run cycle assist into pct, I read somewhere that you shouldnt and you actually want estrogen to come back in pct because you can have a delayed estrogen rebound ( i dont want that )

__________________________________________________---


Is my PCT ok, should i add or subtract anything , please let me know


Thank you for reading, Help is appreciated. also if you you guys decide to help me i will start a progressive log with pictures here.​


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## synthetickid (Jul 11, 2012)

also forgot to say  im preloading hawthorne berry and for joint support i will be buying bulk glucosamine , MSM and chondroitin.


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## heckler7 (Jul 11, 2012)

those PH gains can be fickle, if I was your age again I would run HGH, just sayin


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## synthetickid (Jul 11, 2012)

heckler7 said:


> those PH gains can be fickle, if I was your age again I would run HGH, just sayin



GH is expensive for the amount it takes to work right, I know its different but im taking GH secretagogues the peptides, using mod grf + ipamorelin now


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## jadean (Jul 11, 2012)

Havoc is awesome bro. Looks like your mind is set so just watch your blood pressure. Solid pct will make all the difference


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## synthetickid (Jul 11, 2012)

jadean said:


> Havoc is awesome bro. Looks like your mind is set so just watch your blood pressure. Solid pct will make all the difference



What do you think about this pct? Trying to keep all my gains, I know protein synthesis increases with prohormone use so im aiming for 400+ grams of protein a day and on pct i will drop it down to around 200-250g so im hoping this will play a good part in saving my muscles and strength


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## jadean (Jul 11, 2012)

I would keep macros the seem into pct bro to help keep gains. Ive never run clomid but most double the dose for first few days to try and jumpstart natty test.


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## tallguy34 (Jul 11, 2012)

Your Clomid dose in your PCT is a little low overall. Epi is a good first or second cycle compound but it can shut you down pretty good. Your doses should be 100/75/50/25. Also when going into PCT you don't wanna drop your protein intake going into PCT. Your protein intake and hard work is what is really going to help you keep your gains along with taking a SERM. I personally never change anything I'm doing when going into PCT. I eat just as much depending on goal and train just as hard when I go into PCT as I am when on cycle.


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## tallguy34 (Jul 11, 2012)

Now that I've read your whole first post I have more to add. 

Your middle option for Havoc is the best one if you wanna run a higher dose.

Cycle assist has nothing to do with estrogen. Its a support supplement and you should take it from start of cycle to end of cycle. You still want an AI in your PCT but it doesn't need to be super strong. PES Erase, does the same thing as Aromasin, will work perfectly fine. It allows your body to produce estrogen which it needs but keeps the estrogen from binding. Check this link out 

http://www.orbitnutrition.com/cart/pes-erase-90-caps.html

we have a good price on it.

Whoever told you Havoc can convert to Phera is a lying sack of shit! Havoc is Epistane and it doesn't convert to anything. Its an active compound. Its derived from a breast cancer treatment back in the 1960's. Phera and Epi have a similare structure but Epi is missing a couple things that Phera has. Time won't make Epi get those missing pieces.

I'm not gonna dissuade you as you said you've already decided to do it. But you should read a little more on a few things to better educate yourself. If you had done as much research as you said then you'd know what Cycle Assist is and what its used for.


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## synthetickid (Jul 11, 2012)

tallguy34 said:


> Your Clomid dose in your PCT is a little low overall. Epi is a good first or second cycle compound but it can shut you down pretty good. Your doses should be 100/75/50/25. Also when going into PCT you don't wanna drop your protein intake going into PCT. Your protein intake and hard work is what is really going to help you keep your gains along with taking a SERM. I personally never change anything I'm doing when going into PCT. I eat just as much depending on goal and train just as hard when I go into PCT as I am when on cycle.



Is it ok to dose that high? I know people do that dosage for test e and some other compounds? also will the protein be wasted? I know if you have excess protein its excreted or stored as fat


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## jadean (Jul 11, 2012)

Agreed with everything tallguy said. Keep researching bro even during cycle and off.


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## synthetickid (Jul 11, 2012)

tallguy34 said:


> Now that I've read your whole first post I have more to add.
> 
> Your middle option for Havoc is the best one if you wanna run a higher dose.
> 
> ...



I see i really appreciate your taking the time to help me, thanks 

so 

Havoc - Week 1- 5 ( 30/40/40/50/60 )
Taurine - Week 1 - 5 ( 10g daily )


PCT Start - 
Pes Erase - Week 6 - ? ( should i add it in the beginning of pct or throw it in around the 2nd week with myotest ) 
Clomid- Week 6 - 10 ( 50/50/25/25 ) increase dosage? 100/75/50/25 ?
Lean Xtreme - Week 6 - 10 ( 3 caps ) 
S.A.N MyoTEST - Week 7 -11
Creatine Mono - Week 6 - 11






Supplements run through entire cycle everyday :
Cycle assist
Liv 52 
Multi vitamin
Fish oil
100mcgx3 Mod grf , 100mcgx3 Ipamorelin 

was also planning on getting havoc from the same link you gave , its a good site


jadean said:


> Agreed with everything tallguy said. Keep researching bro even during cycle and off.



yea thanks i know i have to keep researching more and more, i try everyday to learn more about this stuff


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## tallguy34 (Jul 11, 2012)

Week 1 of PCT is when I would start erase. Some wait till second or third week though. You can also get Pro version of Erase off Orbit as well. Its more expensive but its only 1 cap a day cause its a higher dose. I prefer the original version though just cause I can control the dosage. So if I need more I less I just add or subtract. 

So you haven't ordered stuff yet? Good! Ditch the Cycle Assist as it isn't as good as other options. Instead get Anabolic Innovations Cycle Support, its a drink mix and much better than CEL's option. We carry it at orbit also.


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## tallguy34 (Jul 11, 2012)

synthetickid said:


> Is it ok to dose that high? I know people do that dosage for test e and some other compounds? also will the protein be wasted? I know if you have excess protein its excreted or stored as fat



That's a standard Clomid protocol for any cycle. With SERMs you normally have a tapering dosage like that. If you haven't bought your SERM yet do some research and look into Torem. Its a better option in my opinion personally. Clomid can make you as moody as a girl on her rag. Torem is normally 120/90/60/30 just so you have an idea of dosing. Still do research though. 

As for protein, if your training just as hard when your PCTing as you are when your on cycle it shouldn't be that much of a problem. But regardless try and get most of it from foods and then supplement with shakes. After PCT then you can drop the protein back down to a maintenance dose.


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## synthetickid (Jul 11, 2012)

tallguy34 said:


> Week 1 of PCT is when I would start erase. Some wait till second or third week though. You can also get Pro version of Erase off Orbit as well. Its more expensive but its only 1 cap a day cause its a higher dose. I prefer the original version though just cause I can control the dosage. So if I need more I less I just add or subtract.
> 
> So you haven't ordered stuff yet? Good! Ditch the Cycle Assist as it isn't as good as other options. Instead get Anabolic Innovations Cycle Support, its a drink mix and much better than CEL's option. We carry it at orbit also.


I researched they are pretty similar and to just go with what is cost effective  but orbit has erase + support as a combo so its actually simpler to get support and is one bottle of erase enough. If i go 3 caps a day thats about 30 days and should i be going 2 scoops of cycle support a day for everyday of cycle



tallguy34 said:


> That's a standard Clomid protocol for any cycle. With SERMs you normally have a tapering dosage like that. If you haven't bought your SERM yet do some research and look into Torem. Its a better option in my opinion personally. Clomid can make you as moody as a girl on her rag. Torem is normally 120/90/60/30 just so you have an idea of dosing. Still do research though.
> 
> As for protein, if your training just as hard when your PCTing as you are when your on cycle it shouldn't be that much of a problem. But regardless try and get most of it from foods and then supplement with shakes. After PCT then you can drop the protein back down to a maintenance dose.



so torem is considered the end all pct SERM i read. I switched to torem and yes i haven't ordered anything yet im waiting on my next paycheck to order it all


so this is how it all looks atm



Havoc - Week 1- 5 ( 30/40/40/50/60 )
Taurine - Week 1 - 5 ( 10g daily )




PCT Start - 


Pes Erase - Week 6 - 10 ( 3 caps? )
Torem - Week 6 - 10 ( 120/90/60/30 )
Lean Xtreme - Week 6 - 10 ( 3 caps ) 
S.A.N MyoTEST - Week 7 -11
Creatine Mono - Week 6 - 11






Supplements run through entire cycle everyday :
Cycle support ( 2 scoops a day? )
Liv 52 
Multi vitamin
Fish oil
100mcgx3 Mod grf , 100mcgx3 Ipamorelin 
glucosamine
MSM
Chondroitin


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## tallguy34 (Jul 11, 2012)

Start with 3 caps a day but keep an eye on how your recovery is. You may only need 1 or 2. It really is person specific as are a lot of things in this industry. If your libido is absolutely crushed then your taking too much. 

Yes, the recommended dose is 2 scoops for Cycle Support. 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening. Their ingredient profile is similar however its also about quality. CEL has had some ups and downs with their PHs and their Cycle Assist. AI Sports hasn't. I recommend the orange flavored as its the best tasting. 

The MyoTest doesn't look that bad, but it can be expensive to run if you follow their dosing protocol. I know this may seem like a lot of changes to your cycle but if your gonna do it then do it right. You know? Drop that and add BPS EndoSurge, its a much better test boosting product and you get a months supply out of the 180 count bottle. No need to mess with dosing on that. Just follow the instructions. Its also about the same price as the MyoTest but for twice the caps.

This is something you don't have on there but would also be a good idea to get. Scivation Xtend, its a BCAA supplement and is just pure awesomeness! You'd be able to mix the Taurine in there and it will also help with recovery as well as all the other wonderful things BCAAs do. The Green Apple tastes like a liquid Jolly Rancher. All flavors have a sweet taste to them which I've found really helps with cutting down on sugary stuff. My recommendation with BCAAs is different than some people. Personally I think BCAAs should be a throughout the day supplement. That way its pretty much always in your body. With Havoc your gonna wanna up you water intake. So if your gonna drink a gallon a day here is what I'd do. Get a 64oz sport bottle jug from Walmart, its $2 bucks I think. Drink 2 of those a day, that's a gallon. But what your gonna do is add a scoop of the BCAAs to each and drink throughout the day. I know its a paid to refill and all but in the end its worth it. You could just get a gallon jug but then you'd have to toss it in a few days and buy a new one. 

These are the last changes, I swear! Lol. If Orbit is out of EndoSurge when you go to orser let me know and I'll PM the owner and find out when more will be in stock.


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## synthetickid (Jul 11, 2012)

tallguy34 said:


> Start with 3 caps a day but keep an eye on how your recovery is. You may only need 1 or 2. It really is person specific as are a lot of things in this industry. If your libido is absolutely crushed then your taking too much.
> 
> Yes, the recommended dose is 2 scoops for Cycle Support. 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening. Their ingredient profile is similar however its also about quality. CEL has had some ups and downs with their PHs and their Cycle Assist. AI Sports hasn't. I recommend the orange flavored as its the best tasting.
> 
> ...



No this is the exact reason i posted the cycle, to make it better

the plan with the bottle seems brilliant, I drink over a gallon a day usually so its fine and i think ill invest in this so i never need a new bottle

Klean Kanteen: 64oz Wide-Mouth Stainless Steel Water Bottle no plastic poisoning and its reusable forever basically

so ill just be mixing the BCAAs in there


for the BPS endosurge that will also last 30 days should i also incorporate it at week 7 in place of myotest

and endosurge says not to stack it with anything containing nettle root which cycle support has so should i drop cycle support on pct and pick up organ shield

so fat its looking 


Havoc - Week 1- 5 ( 30/40/40/50/60 )
Taurine - Week 1 - 5 ( 10g daily )
Cycle Support Week 1 - 5 




PCT Start - 


Pes Erase - Week 6 - 10 ( 1-3 caps )
Torem - Week 6 - 10 ( 120/90/60/30 )
Lean Xtreme - Week 6 - 10 ( 3 caps ) 
BPS endosurge - Week 7 -11
Creatine Mono - Week 6 - 11
Organ Shield - Week 6 - 10




Supplements run through entire cycle everyday :
Liv 52 
Multi vitamin
Fish oil
100mcgx3 Mod grf , 100mcgx3 Ipamorelin 
glucosamine
MSM
chondroitin
BCAA


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## tallguy34 (Jul 11, 2012)

Shit... I forgot Cycle Support had Nettle Root in it. Yeah, drop the cycle support in PCT but keep taking the Hawthorne Berry, Fish Oil, and Liv52 as well as your join supports. That should pretty much cover you and the Nettle Root in the Endo. 

No start the Endo the same day as PCT. It will really help with the natural test production. The insane amount of l-dopa in there will counteract your bodies production of prolactin and wth the Erase blocking the Estrogen you should feel like a God. Lol. You will have some crazy strong libido on the Endo.

I'm gonna have to check on those steel bottles. That would be really nice to have. I like my cool plastic jug but it might be time for an upgrade. Lol.

Also, the MyoTest was a 90 cap bottle with 3 caps twice a day for a total of 6 caps a day times 30 would be 180 caps needed so 2 bottles. Endo is 180 caps at 30 day supply. Better buy, $30 bucks instead of almost $60.

EDIT: Oh shit, just saw the Organ Shield in there for PCT. Yeah man, your good to go if you drop the Cycle Assist for PCt.


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## synthetickid (Jul 11, 2012)

tallguy34 said:


> Shit... I forgot Cycle Support had Nettle Root in it. Yeah, drop the cycle support in PCT but keep taking the Hawthorne Berry, Fish Oil, and Liv52 as well as your join supports. That should pretty much cover you and the Nettle Root in the Endo.
> 
> No start the Endo the same day as PCT. It will really help with the natural test production. The insane amount of l-dopa in there will counteract your bodies production of prolactin and wth the Erase blocking the Estrogen you should feel like a God. Lol. You will have some crazy strong libido on the Endo.
> 
> ...



with all this estrogen suppression or lowering i wont have a delayed estrogen rebound and get hit with gyno or something will i?

and im still looking into these aluminum 64 oz bottles but definitely picking one up since in the long run it will pay for itself instead of a 3 liter bottle ( which i currently use ) every couple of days

also lets say one day i was to work all day pulling a double or something could it be possible to load a 64 oz bottle with 200+ grams of protein and not have it degrade?


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## tallguy34 (Jul 11, 2012)

You shouldn't. That's what the Erase is for. It allows your body to produce estrogen but not bind to the receptors. Where as other AIs just kill estrogen production period and that's where the rebound can come into effect.

As for the other question on the protein... I'm not sure. I've never had to do something like that. I just take shakers and put my protein powder in there and when its time to drink I fill it with water and chug that ish! I hate water and protein! Lol


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## synthetickid (Jul 12, 2012)

tallguy34 said:


> You shouldn't. That's what the Erase is for. It allows your body to produce estrogen but not bind to the receptors. Where as other AIs just kill estrogen production period and that's where the rebound can come into effect.
> 
> As for the other question on the protein... I'm not sure. I've never had to do something like that. I just take shakers and put my protein powder in there and when its time to drink I fill it with water and chug that ish! I hate water and protein! Lol



so no worries about estrogen rebound months after cycle..gyno is really the last thing i want


also are there any combination of these supps i shouldnt take at the same time? I know liver support and havoc should not be taken around the same time


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## tallguy34 (Jul 12, 2012)

No. You won't have rebound. Like I said, the Erase allows your body to produce estrogen but blocks it from binding to the receptor sites. Now if you were using something that stopped conversion to estrogen period and you just stopped taking it you would have a chance of rebound because the body all of a sudden starts producing mass amounts where it wasn't producing any before. 

As for combinations no. I've never heard of there being a problem with taking liver support and Epi together. I know if your using Superdrol you shouldn't use Milk Thistle because they interact and it affects the Superdrol potency.


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## synthetickid (Jul 12, 2012)

tallguy34 said:


> No. You won't have rebound. Like I said, the Erase allows your body to produce estrogen but blocks it from binding to the receptor sites. Now if you were using something that stopped conversion to estrogen period and you just stopped taking it you would have a chance of rebound because the body all of a sudden starts producing mass amounts where it wasn't producing any before.
> 
> As for combinations no. I've never heard of there being a problem with taking liver support and Epi together. I know if your using Superdrol you shouldn't use Milk Thistle because they interact and it affects the Superdrol potency.



so I shouldnt have a problem dosing any of the pills together correct.  When should i run the  torem? Also can i dose endosurge and erase together to be more effective?


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## tallguy34 (Jul 12, 2012)

No, shouldn't have a problem with taking any of them together. 

The SERM is up to you. Some guys swear by mornings other by night time. I took mine at night only because I noticed it made me mildly lethargic so I thought why the hell not take advantage of that and sleep! Lol

That's actually a good question on the Erase and Endo. You could try it and see. I know Erase says to take with meals but the Endo if I recall can be taken whenever. There I some debate as to using Erase as a pre workout supp. Some guys seem to get a pretty good pump from it and have an overall better training session. I haven't tried it like that before but I might. 

Experiment with that and see what works for you. Cause what may work for me in dosing times may not for you.


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## oufinny (Jul 12, 2012)

tallguy34 said:


> No, shouldn't have a problem with taking any of them together.
> 
> The SERM is up to you. Some guys swear by mornings other by night time. I took mine at night only because I noticed it made me mildly lethargic so I thought why the hell not take advantage of that and sleep! Lol
> 
> ...



For PCT based on what I read, this is what I would do:
Torem - dose at night
Endosurge - 2 pill AM, 2 pre-workout, 2 pre-bed or do 3/3 dose just do it before bed on one of them
Erase - Start with 3 per day (it is equivalent to 25mg of Aromasin), do a 2 AM/1 PM dose

That is all you really need, Erase handles cortisol as well but some creatine and vitamin C in PCT are a good plan.


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## tallguy34 (Jul 12, 2012)

oufinny said:


> For PCT based on what I read, this is what I would do:
> Torem - dose at night
> Endosurge - 2 pill AM, 2 pre-workout, 2 pre-bed or do 3/3 dose just do it before bed on one of them
> Erase - Start with 3 per day (it is equivalent to 25mg of Aromasin), do a 2 AM/1 PM dose
> ...



Listen to this man! He has helped me out A LOT!


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## synthetickid (Jul 13, 2012)

tallguy34 said:


> No, shouldn't have a problem with taking any of them together.
> 
> The SERM is up to you. Some guys swear by mornings other by night time. I took mine at night only because I noticed it made me mildly lethargic so I thought why the hell not take advantage of that and sleep! Lol
> 
> ...





oufinny said:


> For PCT based on what I read, this is what I would do:
> Torem - dose at night
> Endosurge - 2 pill AM, 2 pre-workout, 2 pre-bed or do 3/3 dose just do it before bed on one of them
> Erase - Start with 3 per day (it is equivalent to 25mg of Aromasin), do a 2 AM/1 PM dose
> ...



Thanks a lot I'll do that. I'm seriously appreciating all the help you guys have provided me. I love this forum!

edit: I guess this question is opinionated or maybe only I can answer it but tell me what you guys think. Its 1 of 2 things. Either I can start my cycle in August while im on summer vacation and work S M TH F S. During these days depending on how they scheduled me i may work from 4hrs - 8hrs so eating what i want would be harder, wouldnt be able to reach protein at work etc

or

I could hold off until Sept during new semester and i would only work F S S but be working around my school schedule..both seem kind of sketchy because in september there are more hours in the day i cant reach but large spaces in between them for me to go home, eat etc but in August there are periods of 4hrs during the weekday continuously and not spaced out ...this seems to be the biggest problem to me but i might just say screw it and go September


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## synthetickid (Jul 13, 2012)

^ I seem to have answered it myself..September i guess..sigh another month but this way im sure I can reach my macros


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## synthetickid (Aug 18, 2012)

oufinny said:


> For PCT based on what I read, this is what I would do:
> Torem - dose at night
> Endosurge - 2 pill AM, 2 pre-workout, 2 pre-bed or do 3/3 dose just do it before bed on one of them
> Erase - Start with 3 per day (it is equivalent to 25mg of Aromasin), do a 2 AM/1 PM dose
> ...



will be time to start the cycle soon so clearing up last minute questions

so for the dosing torem at night, I will be taking the full dose at once right? if its the week of 120mg should i be taking all 4 at once


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## tallguy34 (Aug 18, 2012)

Do not split the dose. Take all 120mg at once.


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## Goodskie (Aug 18, 2012)

Week 1 20mgs
week 2 30mgs
week3 40mgs

U can only gain so much. That'll do it.


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## tallguy34 (Aug 18, 2012)

Goodskie said:


> Week 1 20mgs
> week 2 30mgs
> week3 40mgs
> 
> U can only gain so much. That'll do it.



He was asking a PCT. His havoc dose is all set.


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## Goodskie (Aug 18, 2012)

And I would drop all that other crap like glucosamine. Waste of money. Hawthorn berry too. I used to work at GNC and all OTC supps other than protein are shit unless u like placebos. Your blood pressure and liver arent going to be affected by havoc or saved by garbage  supps in a short cycle. If u have bp issues, tell your doctor and get real meds. 

Ive done havoc with no pct and was fine. Clomid isn't a bad idea tho. Other than that it's food and training


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## jadean (Aug 18, 2012)

Goodskie said:


> Week 1 20mgs
> week 2 30mgs
> week3 40mgs
> 
> U can only gain so much. That'll do it.



What? Week 3 is when havoc starts producing results. If anything running it 6 weeks would be ideal but 5 will be fine.


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## Goodskie (Aug 18, 2012)

jadean said:


> What? Week 3 is when havoc starts producing results. If anything running it 6 weeks would be ideal but 5 will be fine.



I always gained a ton in the first 3 weeks on any oral and gains slowed to nothing after that


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## tallguy34 (Aug 18, 2012)

Synthetic, if you can PM me please do so. If not well, don't listen to this guy.


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## Goodskie (Aug 18, 2012)

Oh really man? What did I say that isn't true?

Lets hear your bro science


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## tallguy34 (Aug 18, 2012)

Jadean addressed the first thing... Epi doesn't solidly kick in until week 3. So why would you do a 3 week cycle of a compound and stop when it starts taking effect, doesn't make sense? Everyone is different so it's possible Epi is fully effective the first week for you, I highly doubt it though.

OTC supps are shit... hahaha! Yeah that's why Hawthorne Berry has been proven to help with blood pressure, medically proven. So he is gonna go to his doc due to BP issues and doc will ask why. He will lie cause he isn't gonna tell him the truth, and doc will do tests when simply taking Hawthorne Berry would have alleviated that problem and hassle. No liver support with a methylated compound? Go ahead and fuck your own liver up. Methylated compounds put stress on the liver, so a liver supplement like Liv52 helps cleanse the liver and protect it by reducing some of the strain. Fish oil, thats an OTC supp too, oh god, where do I begin! All the proven medical benefits of fish oil. Yeah it doesn't work at all. For you to say that Havoc won't affect your bp or liver, you must be out of your freaking mind! 

You wanna fuck your own body up that's fine. I'm glad you worked at GNC where you learned to push those shitty ass placebos like Muscle Tech, but don't say all OCT supps are placebos unless you can prove it with backing.


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## oufinny (Aug 18, 2012)

tallguy34 said:


> Jadean addressed the first thing... Epi doesn't solidly kick in until week 3. So why would you do a 3 week cycle of a compound and stop when it starts taking effect, doesn't make sense? Everyone is different so it's possible Epi is fully effective the first week for you, I highly doubt it though.
> 
> OTC supps are shit... hahaha! Yeah that's why Hawthorne Berry has been proven to help with blood pressure, medically proven. So he is gonna go to his doc due to BP issues and doc will ask why. He will lie cause he isn't gonna tell him the truth, and doc will do tests when simply taking Hawthorne Berry would have alleviated that problem and hassle. No liver support with a methylated compound? Go ahead and fuck your own liver up. Methylated compounds put stress on the liver, so a liver supplement like Liv52 helps cleanse the liver and protect it by reducing some of the strain. Fish oil, thats an OTC supp too, oh god, where do I begin! All the proven medical benefits of fish oil. Yeah it doesn't work at all. For you to say that Havoc won't affect your bp or liver, you must be out of your freaking mind!
> 
> You wanna fuck your own body up that's fine. I'm glad you worked at GNC where you learned to push those shitty ass placebos like Muscle Tech, but don't say all OCT supps are placebos unless you can prove it with backing.



Yes, x2 to everything that is in this post.


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## synthetickid (Aug 22, 2012)

tallguy34 said:


> Synthetic, if you can PM me please do so. If not well, don't listen to this guy.





tallguy34 said:


> Jadean addressed the first thing... Epi doesn't solidly kick in until week 3. So why would you do a 3 week cycle of a compound and stop when it starts taking effect, doesn't make sense? Everyone is different so it's possible Epi is fully effective the first week for you, I highly doubt it though.
> 
> OTC supps are shit... hahaha! Yeah that's why Hawthorne Berry has been proven to help with blood pressure, medically proven. So he is gonna go to his doc due to BP issues and doc will ask why. He will lie cause he isn't gonna tell him the truth, and doc will do tests when simply taking Hawthorne Berry would have alleviated that problem and hassle. No liver support with a methylated compound? Go ahead and fuck your own liver up. Methylated compounds put stress on the liver, so a liver supplement like Liv52 helps cleanse the liver and protect it by reducing some of the strain. Fish oil, thats an OTC supp too, oh god, where do I begin! All the proven medical benefits of fish oil. Yeah it doesn't work at all. For you to say that Havoc won't affect your bp or liver, you must be out of your freaking mind!
> 
> You wanna fuck your own body up that's fine. I'm glad you worked at GNC where you learned to push those shitty ass placebos like Muscle Tech, but don't say all OCT supps are placebos unless you can prove it with backing.



Thanks for helping me again, I would rep you for every post if it didn't make me spread it all around and yea even I know this guy has no clue what hes talking about


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## synthetickid (Oct 22, 2012)

im in the 2nd week of pct right now and my libido is shot..is this normal? when should it go back to normal? also all the gains I expected to make on cycle never happened but ever since pct my strength is increasing...weird?


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