# Soy Protein



## BigBallaGA (Dec 27, 2003)

yo guys and girls

what do you think about guys taking soy protein

one of my boys is taking soy and he swears by it, he says its healthy for guys.  even though we all know that soy has high levels of estrogen which is not too cool for guys

wanted to see what everyone has to say.......


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## Mudge (Dec 27, 2003)

Its similar to the situation with vegetable oil. It was healthy at one point, but due to processing it becomes _unhealthy._

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18508


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## Arnold (Dec 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BigBallaGA *_
> yo guys and girls
> 
> what do you think about guys taking soy protein
> ...



tell your friend that he is going to grow boobies soon.


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## Mudge (Dec 27, 2003)

How about mixing the soy with some quality beer


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## BigBallaGA (Dec 27, 2003)

DAMN dude

that article brings up some interesting points, but i dont know how credible it is.  where did it come from


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## Arnold (Dec 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BigBallaGA *_
> DAMN dude
> 
> that article brings up some interesting points, but i dont know how credible it is.  where did it come from



bottom line is soy is shit.


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## BigBallaGA (Dec 27, 2003)

why was this moved ?!?

soy protein is a supplement, so it should have stayed there !


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## Mudge (Dec 27, 2003)

Protein is part of your diet, protein is food, food is not a supplement. I have always considered protein powder as part of a diet (no I did not move it).

It is hard to know what to believe sometimes isn't it, sometimes the benefits outweigh the small detractions, so who knows. The only time I tried soy it was the most horrid tasting thing I had ever experienced, including cod liver oil. I hear it has been much, much improved since then.

I get whey for $19.99/6 pounds, so I have no reason to look elsewhere for now.

The link says very well where it came from dude, look at the top of the page


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## Arnold (Dec 27, 2003)

who cares where the thread is, soy is still shit!


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## BigBallaGA (Dec 27, 2003)

hahahahhhaahah  soy it is  !! kiddin

stick to whey


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## Premo55 (Dec 27, 2003)

There's nothing wrong with soy protein. I know people who are just as muscular and have testosterone levels that are comparable or even higher than whey-using bodybuilders. Personally I make my own protein blend with soy protein isolate, whey isolate, whey concentrate, hydrolyzed whey, milk protein isolate, egg white albumen powder and casein, which I only ever use post-workout. I use soy milk instead of milk at all times and eat tofu twice a week as well.

Peace.


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## Jodi R (Dec 29, 2003)

yip i spoke to the guy who runs muscle science and he says you will get the same results whether you use whey or soy.. you'll find that article made about a hundred stupid statements but didnt back them up with any scientific evidence.


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## Randy (Dec 29, 2003)

Now these words summarize this entire thread 



> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> bottom line is soy is shit.


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## BigBallaGA (Dec 29, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi R *_
> yip i spoke to the guy who runs muscle science and he says you will get the same results whether you use whey or soy.. you'll find that article made about a hundred stupid statements but didnt back them up with any scientific evidence.



!!!!!!!!!


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## Arnold (Dec 29, 2003)

here is a link to numerous articles:

Why Soy Can Damage Your Health


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## Premo55 (Dec 29, 2003)

^^ Yeah okay, so why is it that I know vegan and veggie bodybuilders who experience great results without meat protein and whey, AND who exhibit serum testosterone levels that are perfectly comparable with bodybuilders who ritualistically avoid soy? It all comes down to desire, hard work, training intelligently, how clean your diet is and rest. I increasingly grow wary of the notion that any protein is better than another.

Peace.


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## Arnold (Dec 29, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Premo55 *_
> ^^ Yeah okay, so why is it that I know vegan and veggie bodybuilders who experience great results without meat protein and whey, AND who exhibit serum testosterone levels that are perfectly comparable with bodybuilders who ritualistically avoid soy? It all comes down to desire, hard work, training intelligently, how clean your diet is and rest. I increasingly grow wary of the notion that any protein is better than another.
> 
> Peace.



So, you actually know bodybuilders that eat soy and have their T levels measured and report these results back to you? 

Interesting to say the least.

These bodybuilders that you speak of, if they also told you that they do not use free weights, only machines, would you also conclude that using machines is the best way to train, or that it does not matter both will work the same?

You do not believe that proteins have different bv's? So, the protein found in an egg is equivelant to the protein found in a peanut?


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## Mudge (Dec 29, 2003)

Yes, lets see some comparitive blood tests please, otherwise I can only assume that you are making assumptions. I have a hard time believing that people actually got blood tested before and after using soy protein just for kicks.


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## Mudge (Dec 29, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Premo55 *_
> AND who exhibit serum testosterone levels that are perfectly comparable with bodybuilders who ritualistically avoid soy



Comparing T levels from one person to the next means nothing, it must be done with the same person. One person may have a natural T level of 300 and another 750, this doesn't tell us anything conclusive about thier diets.


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## Randy (Dec 29, 2003)

Vegans are wierd!  Anyone who would turn there nose to a fricken juicy thick tender New York steak has got to have problems 



> _*Originally posted by Premo55 *_
> ^^ Yeah okay, so why is it that I know vegan and veggie bodybuilders who experience great results without meat protein and whey, AND who exhibit serum testosterone levels that are perfectly comparable with bodybuilders who ritualistically avoid soy? It all comes down to desire, hard work, training intelligently, how clean your diet is and rest. I increasingly grow wary of the notion that any protein is better than another.
> 
> Peace.


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## Randy (Dec 29, 2003)

Premo,

Go ahead and mock the great vegans,  "use Soy"


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## Premo55 (Dec 29, 2003)

Yes I think veganism is silly too, from my personal perspective, seeing as how I eat two steaks a day, but really I've seen vegan bodybuilders with phenomenal body composition, and have achieved that much through hard work, dedication, diet and intelligent training (compound movements, powerlifting movements etc.). Soy is comparable to non-veggie alternatives, how else would you explain the success of vegetarian bodybuilders?

Peace.


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## Mudge (Dec 29, 2003)

The meat industry is pretty ugly if you read about it, at least for some, it certainly has the gore aspect down. Treatment of the animals in general is pretty bad, and I'm not animal rights guy either but the things many of these animals go through is just discusting.

With that said, I love meat, and no I'm not a hipster nor do I toke the peace pipe.


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## Jodi R (Dec 29, 2003)

i'm with premo on this.

and you cant really compare the protein from an egg with the protein from a peanut .. you'd have to compare say 20g protein from eggs with 20g protein from peanuts.. whats the diff ??


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## Arnold (Dec 29, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Premo55 *_
> ...how else would you explain the success of vegetarian bodybuilders?



can't say that I know of any personally.


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## Arnold (Dec 29, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi R *_
> and you cant really compare the protein from an egg with the protein from a peanut .. you'd have to compare say 20g protein from eggs with 20g protein from peanuts.. whats the diff ??



I was talking about the bv of different proteins. Obvously one cannot argue that the bv is the same between an egg and a peanut, that was my point.


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## Mudge (Dec 29, 2003)

I can only think of one vegetarian pro-bodybuilder (former).


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## Randy (Dec 29, 2003)

Yeah, the mad cow situation is pretty bad.  It definately is sad the way they treat many of the animals too.  Hopefully there is some good that will come out of this though.  Stiffer regulations and more frequent monitoring of all processes.  Most important some definate changes to help avoid mad cow or anything like it in the future.  After all, happy cows are supposed to come from California... 



> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> The meat industry is pretty ugly if you read about it, at least for some, it certainly has the gore aspect down. Treatment of the animals in general is pretty bad, and I'm not animal rights guy either but the things many of these animals go through is just discusting.
> 
> With that said, I love meat, and no I'm not a hipster nor do I toke the peace pipe.


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## Mudge (Dec 29, 2003)

Thats me! I'm a happy cow.


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## Randy (Dec 29, 2003)

That's good Mudge.


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## Downtown Guy (Dec 30, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> 
> I get whey for $19.99/6 pounds, so I have no reason to look elsewhere for now.



Mudge, where do you get whey at that price?


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## Randy (Dec 30, 2003)

where else, but Costco brother 
Same place I get it.


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## Arthur2004 (Dec 30, 2003)

i bought soy once......then read about it...never used it....cause all readings said soy sucks.......


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## OmarJackson (Dec 30, 2003)

is it true that soy isolate can boost thyroid function and keep BMR from going to low after months of dieting?


P.S.



> where else, but Costco brother
> Same place I get it.



what brand is it?


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## Randy (Dec 30, 2003)

Not sure bro, I don't use Soy.  I use 100% Whey.
The brand is Pro-rated.



> _*Originally posted by Yeah Buddy! *_
> is it true that soy isolate can boost thyroid function and keep BMR from going to low after months of dieting?
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mudge (Dec 31, 2003)

Soy negatively impacts thyroid function from my reading. Either way, I have directly used thyroid medications before, if you think a modest thyroid boost is going to make a difference you are dreaming.


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## CowPimp (Feb 21, 2004)

I try to use as many different sources of protein as possible.  Occasionally I will grab a soy protein drink if I am out and don't have access to the foods I would like to be eating.  As long as you don't take use soy as on of your primary sources of protein, I can't see it hurting...


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## Eggs (Feb 21, 2004)

Lets be realistic though... the main issue at hand is whether the sky is truly falling.

Or as most people here think, that Soy makes your dick fall off.

Thats not the case.  As to Dr. Mercola... Mudge, whats your blood type?  I bet I could give you a link to a Dr that says you're only supposed to eat grains and what not.  So which Dr is right?

Regardless... Dr Mercola also says that we should lower our underground vegetable carbs.  Does that mean I should cut out carrots, potatoes... etc?  What exactly can I eat any more?  Thats what I want to know... because if I follow all the Drs diet advice thats out there these days, I very well might spend the rest of my days nibbling on crumpets and looking like a damn sissy. 

Soy wont kill you.  Is it as good as whey?  No... I do believe whey is superior.  But people are over reacting to soy and being plain silly.

As to peoples estrogen levels increasing when they take soy... they do so when people use roids as well and a favorable amount of estrogen isnt necessarily a bad thing.  I doubt that the estrogen increase attributable to soy is anything more than miniscule.


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## CowPimp (Feb 21, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> Lets be realistic though... the main issue at hand is whether the sky is truly falling.
> 
> Or as most people here think, that Soy makes your dick fall off.



I didn't think it could either, but then I bought drank two soy protein drinks at the same time and guess what was sitting on the floor next to my bed when I woke up the next morning...


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## Eggs (Feb 21, 2004)

You too? Damn... we cant let this get out or they'll all make fun of us


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## Arnold (Feb 21, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> As to peoples estrogen levels increasing when they take soy... they do so when people use roids as well and a favorable amount of estrogen isnt necessarily a bad thing.  I doubt that the estrogen increase attributable to soy is anything more than miniscule.



You're taking the estrogen level thing out of context though.

Yes estrogen is necessary for an optimal anabolic environment, however this in relation the the level of testosterone present.

If you increase testosterone then estrogen needs to be increased as well. In the case of Soy, if it is only increasing estrogen levels that is not a good thing!


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## Eggs (Feb 21, 2004)

But just a minute amount isnt going to cause gyno or anything is it?  I've seen quite a few healthy people that use soy... and none of the males that I know of experience gyno.  I think what our arguments really come down to are which is a better protein source.

In that we agree 100% that whey is the best.


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## Arnold (Feb 21, 2004)

No, I am sure the estrogen level increase is quite small, but as a bodybuilder we would not want even the slightest increase. 

I think I read somewhere that Soy Isolates do not have much impact on estrogen, but either way I avoid all of it.

Yes, whey is superior, but one should incorporate many protein sources: whey, casein, egg, meats, etc.


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## Eggs (Feb 21, 2004)

I dont usually have much soy in my diet anymore... the occasional glass of soy milk (like once every couple months when I'm visiting the family).  I see what you're saying about not wanting any increase in estrogen though, as that would probably increase fat retention.

What do you think our primary protein source should be?  I get some eggs for breakfast and what not... but the single highest source of protein I get is probably from whey.  Along with a little casein each day and some meats.  Sound workable?


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## CowPimp (Feb 21, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Yes, whey is superior, but one should incorporate many protein sources: whey, casein, egg, meats, etc.



Which is exactly why I feel a little soy in your diet can't hurt.  It is definitely one of the smallest sources of protein in my diet, but I have some soy protein periodically.


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## Arnold (Feb 21, 2004)

this is part of an article (the bad part about Soy, written by Will Brink)


*The Downside of Soy *

So why does soy have such a bad reputation among bodybuilders? On the surface, it would appear that soy protein is pretty lousy stuff for most athletes. Soy protein has a low BV score of 74. What does that mean? There are several ways of assessing protein quality. You have the protein efficiency ratio (PER), the net protein utilization (NPU) and the biological value (BV). The PER is an outdated measure of protein quality and is not used much anymore by most supplement manufacturers or nutritionists "in the know" about protein quality. The NPU is a little better than the PER, but fails to take several important factors into account involved with proteins, such as absorption and digestibility, so it too is not used much either. That brings us to the BV. The BV is the most accurate indicator of biological activity of a protein and measures the actual amount of protein deposited per gram of protein absorbed. As a rule, high BV proteins are better for nitrogen retention, immunity, IGF-1 stimulation, and are superior for reducing lean tissue loss during various wasting states than their low BV counterparts. That is, as a general rule, high BV proteins are more anti-catabolic than low BV proteins. As most people already know, the highest BV protein available is whey protein with whole egg a close second (see chart), which is why bodybuilders and other athletes rely heavily on these two protein foods and tend to avoid soy and other proteins with low BV scores. 

In addition to its low BV score, soy has several other nutritional drawbacks that make bodybuilders avoid the stuff like it was fake D-bol. One reason soy is so low on the BV scale is it is lacking in the sulfur containing amino acid methionine. The sulfur containing amino acids (cysteine being the other one) are particularly important for protein synthesis/growth, proper immune system function, and the body's production of glutathione (GSH). GSH is one of the most important anti-oxidants found in the body and protects cells and serves to detoxify a variety of harmful compounds such as hydrogen peroxide, carcinogens, reactive oxygen species, and many others. In particular, GSH is also partly responsible for keeping low density lipoproteins (LDL) from oxidizing and clogging our arteries. Several studies have shown soy protein to be inferior to whey for the production of GSH and improvements in immunity. Though soy has a reputation for reducing cholesterol in man and animals, in one study rats fed soy protein that was not fortified with methionine as 13% of total calories, had an increase in cholesterol and an increase susceptibility of LDL cholesterol to peroxidation . So not only did the rats cholesterol go up, the LDL fraction oxidized easier potentially leading to clogged arteries. It is well established that an increased susceptibility of LDL to peroxidation is an essential step for the development of atherogenesis. These rats were found to have low levels of GSH and did not grow as well as another groups of rats fed casein. 

If that were not bad enough to convince you to avoid soy, it gets worse. Soy protein contains something known as "anti -nutrients" that block the digestion and absorption of many nutrients. Two of the more important anti-nutrients found in soy are Lectins and protease inhibitors. Lectins are nasty constituents of various plants and can cause all sorts of problems from interfering with the absorption of important nutrients to intestinal damage. Proteases are enzymes that assist in the digestion of proteins. Soy has several protease inhibitors that interfere with the enzyme trypsin and chymotrypsin, both of which are important for the digestion and absorption of proteins in the gastrointestinal tract. Finally, soy is rich in estrogenic compounds such as genistein and diadzein. There are over 300 plant derived phytoestrogens found that vary substantially in their physiologic effect and potency in animals and man. As any bodybuilder worth his weight belt already knows, a change in the testosterone/estrogen ratio in favor of estrogen can lead to increased bodyfat and other ill effects as it relates to the strength athletes goals.


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## CowPimp (Feb 21, 2004)

It's funny that whey gets such a high rating on the "well-renowned" BV scale.  I saw a study in which the muscle growth over a set period of time for people primarily using whey protein was about 1/3 of those who ate primarily fish.


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## Arnold (Feb 21, 2004)

exactly why I said it's important to use a variety of protein sources.


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## Randy (Feb 21, 2004)

Ok, here comes my car analogy again....I love it 
Now you can think of this as a new car or your hot rod.
Would you want to be putting lousy gas in your car, like 87 octane?   Hell no,  even if you didn't notice any knocks you would still go with the good gas right?   Same difference here.. Like Prince said, just knowing that Soy is less superior to whey, why use it?  I'm sure there are some that just want to prove a point.  For those that do, go for it ..   Eggs can be our soy guinui pig   But when your weenie falls off, don't come crying to us 
<j/k> 




> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> No, I am sure the estrogen level increase is quite small, but as a bodybuilder we would not want even the slightest increase.
> 
> I think I read somewhere that Soy Isolates do not have much impact on estrogen, but either way I avoid all of it.
> ...


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## Eggs (Feb 21, 2004)

I never put the best gas in my car... I'm in college and cant afford that crap.  Though I think that even if I could I wouldnt


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## CowPimp (Feb 21, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Ok, here comes my car analogy again....I love it
> Now you can think of this as a new car or your hot rod.
> Would you want to be putting lousy gas in your car, like 87 octane?   Hell no,  even if you didn't notice any knocks you would still go with the good gas right?   Same difference here.. Like Prince said, just knowing that Soy is less superior to whey, why use it?  I'm sure there are some that just want to prove a point.  For those that do, go for it ..   Eggs can be our soy guinui pig   But when your weenie falls off, don't come crying to us
> <j/k>



This is a bad analogy.  If you analogy were accurate, then we would only use the "best" source of protein.  However, we need many different kinds of protein.  Could you imagine only eating whey all day long, or eggs?

I think that a very small amount of soy placed here and there in the diet isn't going to hurt, and might actually be a good thing.  Granted, I wouldn't suggest making soy a regular part of your diet based on what I have learned here, but I also wouldn't be completely adversed to including it at small doses.


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## Eggs (Feb 21, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Randy *_
> Eggs can be our soy guinui pig   But when your weenie falls off, don't come crying to us
> <j/k>



Day late and a dollar short biiiiatch. 



> Eggs in regards to his weener falling off: "You too? Damn... we cant let this get out or they'll all make fun of us."


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## myCATpowerlifts (Feb 21, 2004)

err..damnit

ok i throw the opened bottle of soy away and
do what i said about the other
give it to my aunt who is a  fitness person too


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## Randy (Feb 21, 2004)

Cowpimp,

Sorry you didn't like my analogy...Damn I tried  
I guess all I can say is happy soying 




> _*Originally posted by CowPimp *_
> This is a bad analogy.  If you analogy were accurate, then we would only use the "best" source of protein.  However, we need many different kinds of protein.  Could you imagine only eating whey all day long, or eggs?
> 
> I think that a very small amount of soy placed here and there in the diet isn't going to hurt, and might actually be a good thing.  Granted, I wouldn't suggest making soy a regular part of your diet based on what I have learned here, but I also wouldn't be completely adversed to including it at small doses.


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## Randy (Feb 21, 2004)

Hey.... I heard that 



> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> Day late and a dollar short biiiiatch.


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## Eggs (Feb 21, 2004)




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## IronMike (Mar 11, 2004)

Yo Dudes and Dudettes i'm just chuckin my 2 cents into this raging debate on the truth of Soy!

Check out research just in that says avoid soy if you are a guy who just might want to father a mini-me one day.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/3513607.stm

and for further conjecture that Soy might mean changing your name from Dan to Daniella checkout
http://www.t-mag.com/articles/185soy.html

In the land of the free the choice is yours.


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## Randy (Mar 11, 2004)

Looks like we'll have to call eggs,  eggette


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## Robin Hood (Feb 17, 2005)

*What about soy for a woman bodybuilder?*

Ok, so this thread is really old, but I wanted to post a question. Being an aspiring female bodybuilder, is it ok to have soy protein once a day while bulking up? I also get daily protein from fish/poultry, eggs, milk, and whey isolate.


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## Robin Hood (Feb 17, 2005)

By the way, its soy isolate protein...if that makes a dif.


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## LAM (Feb 17, 2005)

you can have several servings of it if you like


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## musclepump (Feb 17, 2005)

I was never a fan of any type of Soy protein


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## Robin Hood (Feb 18, 2005)

But does it not increase estrogen in both women and men, thereby causing more fat storage? This may be ok for a bulk, but I would probably want to stay away when cutting...wouldn't I?


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## LAM (Feb 18, 2005)

that's no concern when using soy isolates, all of the phytoestrogens have been removed


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## Robin Hood (Feb 18, 2005)

LAM said:
			
		

> that's no concern when using soy isolates, all of the phytoestrogens have been removed


Thank you soooo much! That eases my mind, considering I just bought 2 canisters of soy isolate protein without doing any research. Then I started reading this thread and got worried that I had wasted my money.

What about soy milk? Would that be a no-no?


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