# Creatine & Whey Isolate



## mikemack23 (May 13, 2011)

Hey guys, newbie here but I've been lurking for a while. I have a few questions regarding the use of creatine and whey isolate, if you don't mind.

I know from reading the board that this has been beaten to death but I have a somewhat unique situation that I haven't seen covered. After looking around on the internet for endless hours, I've just become more confused with all the conflicting info out there so I thought I'd come out of the shadows and ask you guys.

Here's the deal...I've been taking 5 grams of ON monohydrate creatine, for about a month now, with 10 ounces of 100% grape juice. I do this, at the same time everyday (7:00 pm), whether I workout or not. No problem. I drink around 112 ounces of water a day. I down 16 ounces during and right after working out before I take the creatine/grape juice. Is that bad? I read where water can flush the creatine/grape juice (advantage of the insulin spike) out of your system. Is that right? Should I hold off on downing water around the time of taking the creatine/grape juice?

I've come across a deal that was too good to pass up on some NOW Whey Isolate (two scoops = 50 grams of protein). I want to add that in with my creatine. No big deal, right? Well, the isolate is chocolate flavored and I have a butt load of grape juice concentrate in the freezer. For some odd reason, grape juice + creatine + chocolate whey doesn't sound too appealing. 

What would be the best/most beneficial/ideal way to go about this? Until I am out of grape juice, should I take the creatine + grape juice (for insulin spike) right after working out/cardio (or 7:00 on off days), then wait 20 minutes and take 50 grams of the whey with non-fat milk (sounds better than water plus added protein)? Should I break up the whey into 25 grams in the morning and then do the above with the other 25 grams (creatine/juice then whey/milk) at 7:00? Can I add peanut butter into the whey drink also for even more protein at 7:00? I read that it is bad to eat p.b. with or after creatine b/c the p.b. fat slows down the absorption or something. 

I'm 6'0", around 168 and in pretty good shape. I'm just looking for a little extra kick/bulk by adding 50 grams of the whey.

Here's my schedule:

M,T & Th,F = resistance
M,W,F = cardio (ideally, give or take a day)
Sat & Sun = rest days 

I also take:

Multivitamin
Fish Oil
D-3

I've gotten a lot of good tips from this site by lurking so I thought I ask. 

Thanks in advance for the help.


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## SuperLift (May 13, 2011)

That looks pretty good to me man. check PM


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## xikar (May 13, 2011)

Wow... I dont know man. The time of day you take your creatine, from what I have read, is not important. That said, if I were you I would most likely just finish up that grape juice method you are using now and once that is gone just toss the creatine in with your post workout shake. I've been doing that for a couple years now and it works just fine for me.


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## cdan19 (May 13, 2011)

You never really covered your goal or posted your stats. Nothing wrong with going with 5g daily creatin but have you ever loaded? If so any reason your not maintaining 10g daily. On workout days I would absolutely take the creatin post workout with your whey if your only going to use 5g. On off days I'd take it at night but I'd use a casein protein because it's a slower digesting protein. As far as the grape juice is concerned If thats how you like to take it nothing wrong with it but not necessary. It becomes alot of fluids in a short amount of time. Again if you post your stats and goals theres alot of knowledgeable people on here that will be able to help you out. good luck.


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## mikemack23 (May 13, 2011)

Thanks for the replys. I'm happy with my workouts but I'm just having a problem getting enough protein into my diet. By adding 50 grams of whey (plus the protein in milk), it would help me out a lot. It's hard for me to get 170+ grams of protein in me a day. The 50 grams should do the trick. I'm not trying to get huge, just maintain or add a little bulk.

I cycled the creatine for four days at 20 grams a day. I've been on it for five weeks at 5 grams a day since. I've read that any more than 5 is a waste. I like the results but thought that protein would kicked it up a little. Plus I can stopped choking down two cans of tuna in one sitting, etc.

If there isn't some type of chemical/biological confliction with taking creatine/grape juice pwo and then waiting 20 mins. and doing the 50g whey/milk drink, I'll do that. Should I not drink water immediatley before this? Does adding peanut butter to the whey/milk drink slow down getting the creatine/whey into your system? Would the p.b. negate the insulin spike? Should I split the whey up with 25g in the morning and 25g pwo? I've just read so many conflicting articles about these things. 

Hell, should I just throw the creatine, chocolate flavored whey, peanut butter, milk, grape juice, tuna into a glass, stir with a lucky rabbit's foot and be done with it?

I'm 44 and around 14% body fat.


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## SuperLift (May 13, 2011)

xikar said:


> Wow... I dont know man. The time of day you take your creatine, from what I have read, is not important. That said, if I were you I would most likely just finish up that grape juice method you are using now and once that is gone just toss the creatine in with your post workout shake. I've been doing that for a couple years now and it works just fine for me.



Personally I like to take about 5-10g preworkout and 5-10g post workout

I get it from infinite muscle..check this deal out bro. Over 1000g creatine for under $20!!!

www.InfiniteMuscle.com


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## cdan19 (May 14, 2011)

You have some excellent question and some technical. I would run it by "BUILT" she is the diet guru and has come highly reccomended by most the moderators on this site for those types of questions. She just ran thru all my dietary issues and workout and squared me away with a good game plan for cutting and keeping mass. search her out via member area search you can't go wrong.



mikemack23 said:


> Thanks for the replys. I'm happy with my workouts but I'm just having a problem getting enough protein into my diet. By adding 50 grams of whey (plus the protein in milk), it would help me out a lot. It's hard for me to get 170+ grams of protein in me a day. The 50 grams should do the trick. I'm not trying to get huge, just maintain or add a little bulk.
> 
> I cycled the creatine for four days at 20 grams a day. I've been on it for five weeks at 5 grams a day since. I've read that any more than 5 is a waste. I like the results but thought that protein would kicked it up a little. Plus I can stopped choking down two cans of tuna in one sitting, etc.
> 
> ...


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## Built (May 14, 2011)

cdan19 said:


> On off days I'd take it at night but I'd use a casein protein because it's a slower digesting protein.


Interesting thought. I'm curious to understand your rationale here. Why would the speed of a protein's digestion impact upon creatine? Or do you mean for some other reason?


mikemack23 said:


> Thanks for the replys. I'm happy with my workouts but I'm just having a problem getting enough protein into my diet. By adding 50 grams of whey (plus the protein in milk), it would help me out a lot. It's hard for me to get 170+ grams of protein in me a day. The 50 grams should do the trick. I'm not trying to get huge, just maintain or add a little bulk.


Really? I'm cutting and I have no trouble getting in 200+ g protein daily on sub-2000 calories. Where's your problem?



> I cycled the creatine for four days at 20 grams a day. I've been on it for five weeks at 5 grams a day since. I've read that any more than 5 is a waste. I like the results but thought that protein would kicked it up a little. Plus I can stopped choking down two cans of tuna in one sitting, etc.
> 
> If there isn't some type of chemical/biological confliction with taking creatine/grape juice pwo and then waiting 20 mins. and doing the 50g whey/milk drink, I'll do that. Should I not drink water immediatley before this? Does adding peanut butter to the whey/milk drink slow down getting the creatine/whey into your system? Would the p.b. negate the insulin spike? Should I split the whey up with 25g in the morning and 25g pwo? I've just read so many conflicting articles about these things.
> 
> ...


LMAO don't worry about this, okay? I just watched a Will Brink youtube on creatine and I'm doing it his way now: stir 5g into hot water, dissolve, knock back, then I'm having my whey shake. 

It's not actually the sugar you need so much as an insulin response. Insulin sensitivity post workout is higher than pre, and whey protein, all by itself, stimulates an insulin response. Grape juice is actually a poor choice since half its sugar comes from the insulin-blunting fructose. Just knock back your whey in hot water, then your shake, then eat. No need to wait or anything. 


cdan19 said:


> You have some excellent question and some technical. I would run it by "BUILT" she is the diet guru and has come highly reccomended by most the moderators on this site for those types of questions. She just ran thru all my dietary issues and workout and squared me away with a good game plan for cutting and keeping mass. search her out via member area search you can't go wrong.



Thanks for the props, bud.


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## cdan19 (May 15, 2011)

No i was refering to him using the slower digesting protein before bed and throw the creatin in with it. I didn't think juice was necessary. I didn't mean to imply that it has anything to do with the uptake of the creatin. 


Built said:


> Interesting thought. I'm curious to understand your rationale here. Why would the speed of a protein's digestion impact upon creatine? Or do you mean for some other reason?
> 
> Really? I'm cutting and I have no trouble getting in 200+ g protein daily on sub-2000 calories. Where's your problem?
> 
> ...


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## Built (May 15, 2011)

Gotcha. Thanks. 

This invites another question then - why does the speed of the protein matter at night?


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## trapzilla (May 15, 2011)

Built said:


> Gotcha. Thanks.
> 
> This invites another question then - why does the speed of the protein matter at night?


 
I know that according to bodybuilding lore, by using a slower digesting protein the theory is less catabolism takes place whilst your sleeping as opposed to using a fast digesting protein. 

But this only refers to time it takes for protein to leave the small intestine surely?
It does not reflect the time the protein is in the bloodstream as far as i'm aware, and with the body sleeping I see no reason for there to be a difference between the effects of either fast or slow digesting proteins once they are in the blood stream. 
Using the faster digesting protein may be better as there would be a higher concentration of aminos in the blood after digestion and so maybe the aminos would be more likely to enter cells due to a greater concentration gradient.

Unless a slower digesting protein is used to increase satiety to prevent one waking up in the night due to hunger pangs but i'm only speculating here. 

Part of me asks that if Whey protein triggers an insulin response maybe casein protein does not and hence it is preferred for that reason but i'm not sure on that one.


Built said:


> Insulin sensitivity post workout is higher than pre, and whey protein, all by itself, stimulates an insulin response.


 
How does whey protein stimulate an insulin repsonse Built? Google is being less than helpful


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## cdan19 (May 15, 2011)

Would this be another misconception or marketing ploy then to push another product by an industry littered with competetion? Whats the general concensus of those competitive BB out here then. Whats the Preferred protein powder? Pure whey, casein or concentrate? Just curious. Thanks


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## Built (May 15, 2011)

Preferred protein: whatever has complete protein, BCAAs (especially leucine), no soy, and doesn't taste like ass. 

Trap, it's the BCAAs, particularly the leucine. In people with impaired first-phase insulin response, glucose won't trigger an insulin response but whey protein will. This can work so well, that type II diabetics who preload with whey can often blow off medication entirely. This was something I shared with TGB1987 when we chatted on the phone; drop him a line if you want first-hand information on this. Google leucine and insulin and you'll find more on this as well, particularly on PubMed home 

Regarding marketing: yep, it's all pretty much bullshit. Protein synthesis may actually be improved by interspersing periods of fasting and overfeeding, rather than the "slow trickle" we've long held to be ideal.


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## Anabolic5150 (May 15, 2011)

I use whey isolate 99% of the time. I get mine in different flavors so I don't get bored and it's cost effective. Can't stand the consistency of casein and egg protein gives me horrible gas.


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## Built (May 15, 2011)

Also, casein will also induce an insulin response, but whey does it better. Milk proteins in general are proinsulinemic - and this is helpful because you don't need glucose for creatine to get into your cells, you need insulin. 

Glycemia and insulinemia in healthy subjects after lactose-equivalent meals of milk and other food proteins: the role of plasma amino acids and incretins

As an aside, because it stimulates insulin, it also stimulates leptin, which is an important indicator of satiety.


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## cdan19 (May 16, 2011)

Just when I thought I finally knew something I find out again I don't know shit. Outstanding, thanks. Now I am depressed so when I ask for a hormone panel to be done that much will be true. LOL


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## trapzilla (May 16, 2011)

Built said:


> Preferred protein: whatever has complete protein, BCAAs (especially leucine), no soy, and doesn't taste like ass.
> 
> Trap, it's the BCAAs, particularly the leucine. In people with impaired first-phase insulin response, glucose won't trigger an insulin response but whey protein will. This can work so well, that type II diabetics who preload with whey can often blow off medication entirely. This was something I shared with TGB1987 when we chatted on the phone; drop him a line if you want first-hand information on this. Google leucine and insulin and you'll find more on this as well, particularly on PubMed home
> 
> Regarding marketing: yep, it's all pretty much bullshit. Protein synthesis may actually be improved by interspersing periods of fasting and overfeeding, rather than the "slow trickle" we've long held to be ideal.


 
Is the preload referring to consumption of a whey isolate source prior to ingestion of a carbohydrate meal? If so does the GI of the carbohydrate play a role on the necessity for a whey preload?



Built said:


> Also, casein will also induce an insulin response, but whey does it better. Milk proteins in general are proinsulinemic - and this is helpful because you don't need glucose for creatine to get into your cells, you need insulin.
> 
> Glycemia and insulinemia in healthy subjects after lactose-equivalent meals of milk and other food proteins: the role of plasma amino acids and incretins
> 
> As an aside, because it stimulates insulin, it also stimulates leptin, which is an important indicator of satiety.


 
If BCAA's can stimulate an insulin response in themselves, how comparable to the insulin effect of high GI carbs is it?
This could surely mean that there is no need for carbs post workout other than to replenish glycogen or is there some other benefit to still including "fast carbs" immediately post-workout?


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## Built (May 16, 2011)

trapzilla said:


> Is the preload referring to consumption of a whey isolate source prior to ingestion of a carbohydrate meal? If so does the GI of the carbohydrate play a role on the necessity for a whey preload?


The preload here is used for folks with impaired first-phase insulin response. In normals, there's a spike when we first start eating, then a slower wave that kicks in as we digest. The spike responds to rising blood glucose, but in some of us this spike doesn't happen from glucose. Insulin kicks in slowly sometime later, then has to go very high to mitigate prolonged postprandial hyperglycemia. 

Preloading with a whey shake normalizes this first-phase response, so prolonged postprandial hyperglycemia doesn't happen. Result: normal second-phase insulin secretion.

As an aside, GI is pretty much useless as any kind of a metric. Glycemic load may be more appropriate to look at here. I just go by feel: if my appetite is under control, I'm getting it right. 



trapzilla said:


> If BCAA's can stimulate an insulin response in themselves, how comparable to the insulin effect of high GI carbs is it?


See above; this varies across individuals, and also depending upon the BCAA. Leucine is a very big player here. 


trapzilla said:


> This could surely mean that there is no need for carbs post workout other than to replenish glycogen or is there some other benefit to still including "fast carbs" immediately post-workout?


Bingo. Protein and an insulin response is enough to do the deed - insulin blunts cortisol, promotes leptin, and stores nutrients. Unless you're on a ketogenic diet, reglycogenation will happen over a period of time even in the absence of an acute post-workout bolus of glucose.


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## dave 236 (May 19, 2011)

Built said:


> The preload here is used for folks with impaired first-phase insulin response. In normals, there's a spike when we first start eating, then a slower wave that kicks in as we digest. The spike responds to rising blood glucose, but in some of us this spike doesn't happen from glucose. Insulin kicks in slowly sometime later, then has to go very high to mitigate prolonged postprandial hyperglycemia.
> 
> Preloading with a whey shake normalizes this first-phase response, so prolonged postprandial hyperglycemia doesn't happen. Result: normal second-phase insulin secretion.
> 
> ...


Another question. If whey preloading promotes an insulin response w/o much of an increase in blood glucose levels, then would it make sense that this method would also later in the chain of metabolic events produce an increased glucagon response and thereby possibly aid in the freeing up of fat for fuel? Or am I getting something wrong?


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