# Satiety and Binge Control



## Cardinal (Sep 25, 2004)

I know a lot of folks here have struggled a great deal to control binging tendencies and appetite in general.  A while back I made a plan to control my own lifelong binging/appetite problem.  So far it has worked well, far better than I thought it would.  I still have a binging problem that creeps up frequently but I can control it well now.  I just thought I would share some of the guides I go by and things I have learned on the message boards and elsewhere over the last year+.  Hopefully some folks will find this useful in managing their own diets.  If you have suggestions to add or critiques of said plan, by all means post 'em up.  I like to hear strategies others use. 

Without further ado and in no logically coherent order...

Strategies

1) Set a calorie limit/meal and don't exceed it.  Keep calories/meal as low as possible using a large number of meals/day.  Food is always available this way.  I have found that 300-400 cals/meal works well.

2)Portion control - Eat only that which you pre-plan and set out in front of you ahead of time.  Consume no more than that until next feeding opportunity.  Regulate both food volume and calories in this manner.  

3) a.  Select foods that provide you with the greatest personal response in satiety (satiety index idea). 
   b.  Avoid foods that are known to cause binging tendencies (peanut butter, sweets etc)
   c.  Limit the use of spices, seasonings and sweeteners at first until you know you can control your intake.  Often it is the particular seasoning that causes the addictive tendency and not the food itself.

4) Plan to eat as often as possible.  I find eating roughly hourly to work well.  If time constraints are a problem, simply pick meals that take less than a minute to eat for example.

5) If dieting keep your caloric deficit moderate and don't diet for too long without an extended break at maintenance.  Better yet, plan to bulk finding ways to eat at a higher caloric levels over time.

6)  Maximize fiber intake up to digestive tolerance.  Simple idea is to keep stomach volume as full as possible.  Try oat fiber+xantham gum+ sweetener as a pre-meal shake.  Filling and essentially non-caloric.  Appetite suppression is immediate and lasting. 

7) As in 6, use fibrous veggies to max fiber/water content of diet.  Consume 5+ liters water per day.

8)  Keep insulin stable and high to avoid the hypoglycemic hunger response.  Keeping glycogen stores relatively full signals a higher energy state in the body.  Translation, less hunger.  I have found meal size to be far more important than GI to maintain stable insulin.

9)  Try using low calorie substances like polydextrose inulin, basically anything with less than 4kcals/gram to consume more food volume/weight without the added kcals of normal macros.

10)Experiment with appetite suppressants.  EHCL/Caffeine, Nicotine gum/transdermal, Bromocriptine, RX meds etc.  

11)  Start by using only a very small variety of foods in your diet.  Keep it very simple and repetetive.  You can learn a lot about how specific foods affect you this way and don't have so many variables to consider.  

12) Use diet aids standard (SF gum, SF jello, Diet soda, etc)

13) Focus on eating around the clock.  Wake up in middle of night, grab protein shake.  The idea is to keep a continuous supply of food in your system.  Don't get into the mental habit of postponing eating so that you may ingest more calories or more food volume later in the day for example.  Just leads to a greater chance of binging and less control.  In general I have tried to make cyclical dieting plans work (and of course they do), but I find that they do not help that much with binging troubles.  

14)After the preceding are in place and you establish a degree of control over food intake, add in variety to the point that you can eat virtually any food without binging and can forgoe the use of many of the above suggestions.  At that point, binging problems are essentially non-existant and are easily managed.

Let me know what you guys think.  

-Cardinal


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## bulletproof1 (Sep 25, 2004)

Cardinal said:
			
		

> 4) Plan to eat as often as possible.  I find eating roughly hourly to work well.  If time constraints are a problem, simply pick meals that take less than a minute to eat for example.



  why would you eat every hour?


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## BulkMeUp (Sep 25, 2004)

bulletproof1 said:
			
		

> why would you eat every hour?


Not to mention that it would be a real pain in the ass to arrange for so many itty-bitty meals.


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## Cardinal (Sep 25, 2004)

Mainly because I find that I often get very hungry if I go longer than that and have no trouble fitting in a minimum of 10-12 meals in a day.  When I am eating a high amount of calories each day but want each one of them to be in the 300-400 calorie range to limit binging, it necessitates a large number of meals.  

My idea is to eat as often as possible.  I certainly wouldn't expect everyone to eat each hour.  I am just suggesting feedings as often as possible as opposed to the 3 squares a day type plan (some people do very well on this type of setup too).  If I have something that takes my mind off of eating so that I can make it 2-3 hours, all the better.  No need to be anal or stress over it.  I still end up with 10+ meals/day.  Its just not a burden to me in the slightest.  My appetite doesn't really diminish ever and I have a tremendous eating capacity.

As far as the meals being itty bitty.  Doesn't necessarily have to be that way.  One meal for me would be 2 cups oatmeal + one can tuna + large helping salad mix for example.  That might put me at say 350kcals/meal.  That is what I see as normal.  I am trying to avoid the super-huge volume meals that I ate when I used to binge so often.  Digestive system is thanking me now.

My initial thinking was that if eating every hour on the hour doesn't sound extremely appealing and you wouldn't jump at the chance to make sacrifices necessary to do that, chances are you probably don't have an extreme binging problem either.  JMO.


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## bulletproof1 (Sep 26, 2004)

eating every hour doesnt even make sense although i would like to understand your point of view. you cant wait 2.5 hours between meals? that is how long it takes your body to digest a meal. it seems strange that would write tips about binge control but seem to constantly eat throughout the day. 10 -12 meals @ 300 - 400 calories per meal is 3000 to 4800 calories. and this is a cut that you're on? 

yes, eating 5-7 meals a day is good advice. eating every hour however is poor advice. you are eating your next meal before your body can even digest the meal prior.


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## trHawT (Sep 26, 2004)

If you're interested in gaining a ton of excess bodyfat, go ahead and eat every hour.
Cool with me.


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## Cardinal (Sep 26, 2004)

bulletproof1 said:
			
		

> eating every hour doesnt even make sense although i would like to understand your point of view. you cant wait 2.5 hours between meals? that is how long it takes your body to digest a meal. it seems strange that would write tips about binge control but seem to constantly eat throughout the day. 10 -12 meals @ 300 - 400 calories per meal is 3000 to 4800 calories. and this is a cut that you're on?
> 
> yes, eating 5-7 meals a day is good advice. eating every hour however is poor advice. you are eating your next meal before your body can even digest the meal prior.



Oh, I can definitely wait 2.5 hours between meals or longer if necessary.  But in a general sense I have found that as time between meals increases (and meal size in terms of calories and food volume increases other things held constant) the tendency to overeat is greatly amplified.  My idea is also to distribute calories as evenly as possible throughout the day.  Same premise.  In the evenings for example when hunger is strongest for me, I would find it nearly torture in comparison to have to wait 2.5 hours to eat again from a psychological standpoint. 

I guess to understand where I am coming from you might think of having to wait 5-6 hours between meals versus 2-3 for a normal person.  The way a 'normal' person would feel after 5-6 hours no food, well, I feel that way after 2-3.  Always have.

I believe I have seen the 2.5 hour figure or thereabouts for digestion as well.  I think it might be more accurate to say that is a decent average time taken for gastric emptying (digestion can easily last 8 hours+ etc.).  And I do want to eat again before gastric emptying finishes.  That way any hunger associated with having an empty stomach is a non-issue most of the time.  Exactly my point!

I am actually bulking now and do plan to eat at the 4000 calorie level as long as possible.  To put it into perspective, I have had difficulty controlling calories in the past even up to 5000-6000 kcals per day.  Using the above strategies, I can drop calories down about 1200 and still maintain virtually total control.  Is it fun? Hell no, but I can do it and stick to the diet sans binging.  And eating as often as possible is a big part of that solution for me.



			
				trHawT said:
			
		

> If you're interested in gaining a ton of excess bodyfat, go ahead and eat every hour.
> Cool with me.



Gaining bodyweight, fat or otherwise, is determined mainly by difference in energy intake and energy expenditure (running hypercaloric diet).  Meal frequency is independent of this.  Your logic is even worse than mine!


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## trHawT (Sep 26, 2004)

Cardinal said:
			
		

> Oh, I can definitely wait 2.5 hours between meals or longer if necessary.  But in a general sense I have found that as time between meals increases (and meal size in terms of calories and food volume increases other things held constant) the tendency to overeat is greatly amplified.  My idea is also to distribute calories as evenly as possible throughout the day.  Same premise.  In the evenings for example when hunger is strongest for me, I would find it nearly torture in comparison to have to wait 2.5 hours to eat again from a psychological standpoint.
> 
> I guess to understand where I am coming from you might think of having to wait 5-6 hours between meals versus 2-3 for a normal person.  The way a 'normal' person would feel after 5-6 hours no food, well, I feel that way after 2-3.  Always have.
> 
> ...




Don't get mad, bro!  You didn't even mention your training, just your idea of dieting.  Anyway, how much do you weigh, and what is your current bodyfat percentage?  Curious.


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## trHawT (Sep 26, 2004)

What are your stats, bro?


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## bulletproof1 (Sep 26, 2004)

im with you trhawt. this guy isnt even giving his body time to digest a full meal. dude is just piling meal on top of meal.

piling meal on top of meal = binge eating = fat


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## Cardinal (Sep 26, 2004)

trHawT said:
			
		

> Don't get mad, bro!  You didn't even mention your training, just your idea of dieting.  Anyway, how much do you weigh, and what is your current bodyfat percentage?  Curious.



Right now, morning bodyweight is around 205, 6'2".  Bodyfat percentage.  Not sure.  Waist measures 34-37 inches, so probably 15%+.  Training plan is roughly 5x per week, plan to do as much work lifting as possible while still making consistent gains in strength/size.  High volume/high frequency to build work capacity.  Protein intake very high to max thermic effects.  Fat low to moderate, rest carbs.



> piling meal on top of meal = binge eating = fat



Logically, I am still stuck with this reasoning.

1) For max satiety, need maximum food volume up to digestive tolerance and maximum caloric intake up to excessive fat gain.
2)For max food volume, spread volume of foood over largest number of meals possible.  Makes digestion much easier.  It is difficult to eat high volume food without a large number of meals.
3)  To minimize binging tendency, each meal should be relatively small in terms of calories.  I personally like 300-400.  As calories from protein/cho increase/meal, so increases the tendency to overeat and binge mainly due to stronger fluctuations in insulin levels (can't correct by adding fiber/fat, at least I can't).
4) Other things being equal it is much easier for me to put the fork down after consuming a lower number of cho/protein grams/meal.  Control over binging is increased, not decreased. 
5)  To eradicate the binging feeling I get during and after eating, all I have to do is quit long enough for insulin levels to normalize and for all other effects to normalize (flavor, mouth feel of food etc).  An hour between meals is plenty long for this.  Subjectively, I then no longer have the desire to consume a whole gallon worth of oats for example, but can be satisfied with less.  That is the sort of control I am looking for and have achieved (most of the time).


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## bulletproof1 (Sep 26, 2004)

Cardinal said:
			
		

> Right now, morning bodyweight is around 205, 6'2".  Bodyfat percentage.  Not sure.  Waist measures 34-37 inches, so probably 15%+.  Training plan is roughly 5x per week, plan to do as much work lifting as possible while still making consistent gains in strength/size.  High volume/high frequency to build work capacity.  Protein intake very high to max thermic effects.  Fat low to moderate, rest carbs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i have never heard of anyone eating 12 meals a day but hey if it works for you knock yourself out.


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## Cardinal (Sep 26, 2004)




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## LAM (Sep 26, 2004)

Cardinal said:
			
		

> Mainly because I find that I often get very hungry if I go longer than that and have no trouble fitting in a minimum of 10-12 meals in a day.



if you are hungry an hour after eating logic would dictate that the caloric content of those meals is insufficient...

the body does not begin to send "starvation" signals until the lower GI is empty which is roughly 2-3 hours after a meal depending on the nutritional content of that meal.  eating that frequently will also have no positive effect on increasing muscle protein synthesis (MPS).  MPS is increased in skeletal muscle each time there is a spike in amino acid concentration.  if AA concentration is constant there are no spikes...


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## joey2005 (Sep 26, 2004)

if i eat 12 oz of chicken as a meal...30 minutes later im hungry. Theres gotta be carbs in a meal for me to be full for 2-3 hours.


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## Cardinal (Sep 26, 2004)

LAM said:
			
		

> if you are hungry an hour after eating logic would dictate that the caloric content of those meals is insufficient...
> 
> the body does not begin to send "starvation" signals until the lower GI is empty which is roughly 2-3 hours after a meal depending on the nutritional content of that meal.  eating that frequently will also have no positive effect on increasing muscle protein synthesis (MPS).  MPS is increased in skeletal muscle each time there is a spike in amino acid concentration.  if AA concentration is constant there are no spikes...



One would think that logically increasing calories from an insufficient level per meal to a sufficient level per meal would solve the issue of hunger after only an hour allowing for longer time between feedings.  But for me, insulin is a larger factor here than caloric content.  The extra calories don't make up for the fluctuation induced hunger.  Even 600-700 calorie meals cause a greater binging tendency than 300-400 for me.  Incidentally meals using say 800-1200 calories cause an even worse reaction.  I am hungry both while insulin is rising to its full extent, then even more so when it bottoms out.  Unfortunately fat has a very poor acute effect on hunger for me so I can't fix the problem by subbing fat for protein/cho.

Regarding the hunger signals, I don't believe the stomach sends signals in an on/off switch manner but rather as a continuum starting post-prandially and amplifying until next meal.  The fuller the GI tract is, the better the appetite suppression (solely from a food volume perspective).  Once even a small amount of that food makes it out of the stomach/GI, there is room for more and a person with a strong appetite would then want to ingest more.  Translation: appetite flares up.  Usually happens within the hour for me.  

Also, as I noted above, I believe eating a maximal amount of food volume to digestive tolerance will yield the best satiety.  For ease of digestion, it makes sense to do this in as many meals as is feasible.

It is all the hunger signals I am really trying to avoid here attacked from many angles, not just the 'starvation' signal that a person with a normal appetite would feel.

I definitely agree that there should be no added benefit through increasing MPS with such frequent feedings.  Regarding satiety though, since protein provides more satiety than cho or fat (based on research), it makes sense to me to consume that at each meal for the most part.  

I am definitely trying to avoid the spikes in insulin almost universally, no matter the cause.  Post-prandial hypoglycemia, triggered by excess protein (moreso than cho) causes what I believe to be a mild genetic heart arrhythmia.  After several years I believe I have nailed down the cause.  I no longer have this problem on my current plan.


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## joey2005 (Sep 26, 2004)

im hungry after every meal no matter what calories...this means my insulin is sparky? doesnt that hinder fat losS?


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## Cardinal (Sep 26, 2004)

Insulin spikes can be very beneficial (e.g. post workout).  Each spike limits fat oxidation (since insulin levels are so damn high and insulin is a storage hormone and blunts lipolysis when super high).  But after the spike there is a crash or leveling off where fat oxidation is greatly increased.  So it can balance in that sense.  In the end, staying hypocaloric seems to be the biggest factor in reducing bf.


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## LAM (Sep 26, 2004)

joey2005 said:
			
		

> im hungry after every meal no matter what calories...this means my insulin is sparky? doesnt that hinder fat losS?



you are hungry after every meal because you are starving yourself and exercising too much...


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## Robboe (Sep 26, 2004)

trHawT said:
			
		

> If you're interested in gaining a ton of excess bodyfat, go ahead and eat every hour.
> Cool with me.



Lol bro, how the hell'd you come up with that conclusion, bro?


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## LAM (Sep 26, 2004)

Cardinal said:
			
		

> One would think that logically increasing calories from an insufficient level per meal to a sufficient level per meal would solve the issue of hunger after only an hour allowing for longer time between feedings.  But for me, insulin is a larger factor here than caloric content.  The extra calories don't make up for the fluctuation induced hunger.  Even 600-700 calorie meals cause a greater binging tendency than 300-400 for me.  Incidentally meals using say 800-1200 calories cause an even worse reaction.  I am hungry both while insulin is rising to its full extent, then even more so when it bottoms out.  Unfortunately fat has a very poor acute effect on hunger for me so I can't fix the problem by subbing fat for protein/cho.
> 
> Regarding the hunger signals, I don't believe the stomach sends signals in an on/off switch manner but rather as a continuum starting post-prandially and amplifying until next meal.  The fuller the GI tract is, the better the appetite suppression (solely from a food volume perspective).  Once even a small amount of that food makes it out of the stomach/GI, there is room for more and a person with a strong appetite would then want to ingest more.  Translation: appetite flares up.  Usually happens within the hour for me.
> 
> ...



well I hope you don't plan on using this protocol for long.  you digestive system will surely get wacked out from all of this constant eating as you are placing undue stress on digestive organs.


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## joey2005 (Sep 26, 2004)

what ive had today 

meal 1 : 
6 egg whites
2 cups brown rice 
strawberries

meal 2: 
2 cups brown rice
2 oz tuna/4 oz chicken breast
pear

meal 3: 
4 oz tuna
spinach/carrots
vinegar

meal 4 : 
5 oz chicken
broccoli / carrots / colliflower

meal 5 : 
2 cups brown rice 
2 scoops whey protein 


Now im 200lbs and im dying to get cut. This is a low  carb day .. this comes out 2800 calories..so im know im already overboarding..but im still hungry inbetween meals here. And as far as exercise..i did HIIT cardio after breakfast for 15 minutes. Should I eat more? all in all the calorie deduction is what kills the fat


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## Cardinal (Sep 26, 2004)

At one point my binging problem was quite severe.  I ate so many fibrous veggies while dieting, I ended up with IBS (which I still have).  Calories averaged 2000-2500/day over several months time with refeeds as needed.  I knew quite well how to stay hypocaloric but was consuming too much food volume/meal (and the wrong type of foods). 

Under my current plan digestion has improved greatly.  I have enough control to stay within digestive limits each meal.  I can even incorporate some of the most offensive foods back in my diet now without many negative repurcussions.  I plan on using these strategies for the forseeable future.  Compared to where I was this is a major improvement.  

If I find I am consuming too much volume, I will scale back that volume.  But still I firmly hold to the idea that it is better to separate food volume ingested into as many small meals as possible all other things equal.  That should improve rather than hurt digestion.  I would venture to say that most people that have digestive issue would not benefit by increasing the size of meals.  That makes little sense to me.  It would be better in that case to reduce net food volume than to alter frequency of feedings.

A little common sense helps.  I believe the digestive system has very distinct ways of communicating problems.  They are hard to miss!

Edit: 

Joey,
I'll comment when I get back, but there are several things you can do right off the bat to increase satiety given what you wrote down.  I am sure others can comment as well.


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## Cardinal (Sep 26, 2004)

joey2005 said:
			
		

> what ive had today
> 
> meal 1 :
> 6 egg whites
> ...



I assume you are cho cycling and cutting.  Calories look a little high for low-carb day.  I certainly wouldn't increase those. On cho cycling, If a caloric increase is needed, it should go on high carb day imo, like a mini refeed.  Low cho day should put you in a moderate deficit if I recall correctly.  

Some suggestions to increase satiety.  Try old fashion oatmeal in place of the brown rice.  Better yet, get some extra-thick oatmeal and cook it slowly with as much water as it will absorb (way more than package directions).  This will increase fiber, water and overall food volume.  Rice is not filling on a cut in comparison.

Between meals keep sf gum, sf jello and diet soda handy.  Also I have found nicotine gum to work wonderfully as a dessert.  Try adding some supplemental fiber in slow increments into your diet as you can tolerate it in addition to the veggies.  Pyllium, xantham, oat fiber whatever. 

Re: water intake.  First thing in the morning, consume 1-2 liters fluid (I do fiber shakes when dieting).  Make sure to drink at least 5L/day.  This is very important.  Give some of those ideas a shot and see if they improve on your current plan.


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## trHawT (Sep 27, 2004)

bulletproof1 said:
			
		

> i have never heard of anyone eating 12 meals a day but hey if it works for you knock yourself out.



 

12 meals a day is excessive!  True.  At 34" - 37" waist, you're definitely 15%+ bodyfat.


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## trHawT (Sep 27, 2004)

The_Chicken_Daddy said:
			
		

> Lol bro, how the hell'd you come up with that conclusion, bro?




lol.  Just for the hell of it.  It just sounded like an excuse to eat a lot.  I don't know about you, but it would take a lot of calorie expenditure to burn off 12 meals a day.  There's no way I could eat 12 meals a day.  Not even at 12 croutons a day.  lol


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## Robboe (Sep 28, 2004)

Well, you can eat 2000kcals a day split over 12 meals and that's not excessive.

Depends whether it works for him.

Apparently Jay Cutler eats every 90 minutes - about ten meals a day - in order to get all his calories down. Now, granted he uses drugs, changing the picture quite considerably, but the general application is the same.


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## Cardinal (Sep 28, 2004)

trHawT said:
			
		

> 12 meals a day is excessive!  True.  At 34" - 37" waist, you're definitely 15%+ bodyfat.



Yep, I imagine I am in the 15-20% range now.  I have never hit 10%.  I look at my genetics and setpoint as being very much average.  I figure I'll just bulk and cut around my setpoint mainly and not worry too much about fat unless I get well over 20%.  I spent a year and a half learning how to cut effectively so I am not concerned about being able to lose it.  

I just want to bulk as much as possible to maximize time spent building muscle, which I now see as the more difficult long-term task (so easy to manipulate bodyfat stores in comparison).  Sans androgens 1-2 lbs muscle a month I would be quite pleased with.


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## Rauschgift (Sep 28, 2004)

Cardinal said:
			
		

> 13) Focus on eating around the clock.  Wake up in middle of night, grab protein shake.
> -Cardinal



That is horrible advise.



			
				Cardinal said:
			
		

> Yep, I imagine I am in the 15-20% range now. I have never hit 10%. I look at my genetics and setpoint as being very much average. I figure I'll just bulk and cut around my setpoint mainly and not worry too much about fat unless I get well over 20%. I spent a year and a half learning how to cut effectively so I am not concerned about being able to lose it.



If it was easy to lose bodyfat everyone would be thin. It takes will power and dedication to lose it and then keep it off. Typically the people without the dedication are the ones that say they are not concerned with it or that "they could if they wanted to".


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## LAM (Sep 28, 2004)

Cardinal said:
			
		

> Yep, I imagine I am in the 15-20% range now.  I have never hit 10%.  I look at my genetics and setpoint as being very much average.  I figure I'll just bulk and cut around my setpoint mainly and not worry too much about fat unless I get well over 20%.  I spent a year and a half learning how to cut effectively so I am not concerned about being able to lose it.
> 
> I just want to bulk as much as possible to maximize time spent building muscle, which I now see as the more difficult long-term task (so easy to manipulate bodyfat stores in comparison).  Sans androgens 1-2 lbs muscle a month I would be quite pleased with.



you need to get your bf tested.  there is a huge difference between 15 and 20% bf.  you do realize that the higher your bf is the higher the conversion from test to estrogen which means the more water weight and body fat you will gain on a bulk...


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## Cardinal (Sep 28, 2004)

Rauschgift said:
			
		

> That is horrible advise.



Many bodybuilders in particular develop binging disorders from extreme dieting and from cyclical dieting in general (refeeds etc).  A common longterm suggestion is not to stay too far below one's setpoint.  In the short term, a consistent daily diet is often called for (i.e. not a ckd with massive refeeds every 3rd day, but rather say an isocaloric for instance).  Psychologically, I think that one of the largest hurdles to overcome for many has to do with self-induced food deprivation.

Many normal folks go ravenous building up to refeeds and really let loose when the refeed rolls around.  I believe it best to avoid that sort of situation by for example, spreading caloric intake out evenly throughout the week.  The deprivation is reduced.

To control the tendency even better, I think it is effective for a person to develop the mindset that food is available when needed (not just an adequate amount each day, but rather an adequate amount each hour as an example if needed.  So no warrior diets =D  For someone that gets 8 hours of sleep a night, they may end up going 9-10 hours without food.  If you are up anyway taking a piss, I say have the protein shake to squelch night hunger and anticipate morning hunger.  Not sure how that is construed as horrible advice.



			
				Rauschgift said:
			
		

> If it was easy to lose bodyfat everyone would be thin.



Everyone that wanted to be thin would be thin.  It is easy for most to lose bodyfat down to their setpoint using most non-retarded diet plans.



			
				Rauschgift said:
			
		

> It takes will power and dedication to lose it and then keep it off.



Absolutely.



			
				Rauschgift said:
			
		

> Typically the people without the dedication are the ones that say they are not concerned with it or that "they could if they wanted to".



Typically, this sounds correct to me.  My personal goal however is to live my life around my setpoint.  Though I may choose to see 10% in my lifetime I will not likely stay there or below.  I feel my quality of life overall will be much higher living at a genetically normal bodyfat.  

I won't go with percentages b/c I obviously suck at estimating bodyfat, but I have dieted down to a thin 167 lbs, 32 inch waist.  Though I enjoyed learning about how to control my bodyfat, I also learned a lot about what I don't want to do again!

And I know it is tough to believe or rationalize as a bodybuilder sometimes, but there are many many people out that that really don't care all that much and are perfectly happy (and healthy too) that choose to carry bodyfat significantly over their setpoint.


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## Cardinal (Sep 28, 2004)

LAM said:
			
		

> you need to get your bf tested.  there is a huge difference between 15 and 20% bf.  you do realize that the higher your bf is the higher the conversion from test to estrogen which means the more water weight and body fat you will gain on a bulk...



Acknowledged.  I have never had it tested even using calipers.  Waist mirror and scale I have gone by.  And from your comment, I am guessing someone at 20% is pretty damn fat!

From my research on androgens, I learned a fair amount about estrogen.  What stuck was that some is good for anabolism.  And too much leads to what you described.  Good ole 4AD =D


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## BulkMeUp (Sep 29, 2004)

LAM said:
			
		

> you do realize that the higher your bf is the higher the conversion from test to estrogen which means the more water weight and body fat you will gain on a bulk...


So does that imply that it is best to reduce bf low/very low and then bulk, to get max benefit from test?


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## LAM (Sep 29, 2004)

you don't have to be very low (single digit) but IMO you should be lower than average...adipose tissue is a major conversion site for the aromatization of test to estrogen...basically the leaner you are the harder it is to get fat and the fatter you are the easier it is to get fatter...


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## missy24 (Sep 29, 2004)

*Binging*

Uhmmm, don't any of you ever just binge because:

1) you want the food?
2) you are feeling deprived?
or 
3) its a stress or emotional response?

Seems like when I binge, my problem is stopping.  I have this all or nothing attitude and when I start, I begin thinking, oh well, I blew it...may as well keep going.


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## carbchick (Sep 30, 2004)

missy24 said:
			
		

> Uhmmm, don't any of you ever just binge because:
> 
> 1) you want the food?
> 2) you are feeling deprived?
> ...




yes, obviously we binge for all those reasons, or just one of them will do at any given time. Frustration, rage, tiredness, because it's raining, because I have a zit on my chin ...
any of the above and zillions more besides can be triggers.
BUT why do I express my rage in this way? what is it in my history/genes/mindset that makes me choose this particular self-abuse?


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## carbchick (Sep 30, 2004)

seems to me, speaking as a binger, that Cardinal's advice is totally on the money. And those who have seen fit to comment and are NOT bingers are really pulling it out of their ass.


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## bulletproof1 (Sep 30, 2004)

if you want to binge, have a cheat day. 

if you are serious about your goals then binging wont be a factor. control your food - dont let in control you.


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## missy24 (Sep 30, 2004)

control your food - don't let it control you.

At the point of a true binge, I am totally out of control until I am finished.  

It's not the food controlling me, its not hunger - it's usually something else like CarbChick said, emotions, frustration, deprivation, zit on my chin......


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## Cardinal (Sep 30, 2004)

missy24 said:
			
		

> Uhmmm, don't any of you ever just binge because:
> 
> 1) you want the food?
> 2) you are feeling deprived?
> ...



This brings up a very important point that I would like to comment on and certainly entertain further discussion about.  Namely that for many people binging is triggered more by emotional responses than rational needs if you will.

I have never had a notable binging problem due to emotional considerations.  Even in high stress and emotionally volatile times (death of parent for example), my eating habits are only modestly altered and only for a short time. I never just want a big mac and fries or to eat a whole chocolate cake just because (And then proceed to do it).  Binging like this I have never done as a bodybuilder.  Rather I binge within the framework of whatever diet plan I setup for myself instead.  (I might eat 3 loaves of whole wheat bread/day instead of two for example.)

This is starkly different than many binge problems I have read about where someone just has a shitty day and takes out the chocolate factory box by box.  The plan I outlined therefore doesn't deal directly with those emotional issues that many have.  The structure can still help someone like that gain control but it doesn't attack the underlying emotional problem.  

The way I would try to deal with such a problem if I had it would likely be to determine the emotional cause first and then find a rational way to avoid it in the future.  

For those of you reading this that have dealt with or are dealing with  emotional binging problems, what steps did you find useful to best control the tendency?  Missy? Carbchick?  The question you posted is the same that I would like to hear some answers to.  Why are the emotions (rage, etc.) expressed through binging?  And even more importantly, how to eliminate or reduce the tendency.  What are the things most fundamental to attacking the problem?

-Cardinal


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## bulletproof1 (Sep 30, 2004)

you eat 3 loaves of bread a day?


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## Cardinal (Sep 30, 2004)

On a binge, I certainly have!  On a normal diet I can definitely put away two loaves (about 1600 calories).  Like I said, my eating capacity is higher than most (by a long shot).

Good advice btw with the idea control your food - don't let it control you.


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## bulletproof1 (Sep 30, 2004)

Cardinal said:
			
		

> On a binge, I certainly have!  On a normal diet I can definitely put away two loaves (about 1600 calories).  Like I said, my eating capacity is higher than most (by a long shot).
> 
> Good advice btw with the idea control your food - don't let it control you.



i think for the first time since i have been here i am speachless   
thats way too much bread dude.


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## Cardinal (Sep 30, 2004)

bulletproof1 said:
			
		

> if you want to binge, have a cheat day.
> if you are serious about your goals then binging wont be a factor.



This is not true on some diets.  Take Protein Spared Modified Fast as an example.  To be successful on that diet and to avoid binging, I think it takes far more than just being serious about it.  Most bbers that start such a diet are very much serious about it.  For most, to stick to it, a solid plan specifically designed toward adherence (a large part of which is appetite control) is needed to anticipate problems. For some 75mg E HCL is plenty.  For others, it may take quite a bit more and a more complicated strategy.  I can extend the same logic to most diet plans though the degree to which binging is a serious issue is not so high.  On many moderate diet plans, dedication can take you far.  I agree wholeheartedly.


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## bulletproof1 (Sep 30, 2004)

Cardinal said:
			
		

> Good advice btw with the idea control your food - don't let it control you.



thanks ..... i have my moments.


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## bulletproof1 (Sep 30, 2004)

first of all, most people here are not bb's to my knowledge. some here are that serious but most are here simply to be "fit." most of the new members that come here are usually looking to lose weight. if they go on a strict 7 day a week diet they will usually fail due to the overwhelming aspect of it. that is why i usually suggest to them to have a cheat day.


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## missy24 (Sep 30, 2004)

For those of you reading this that have dealt with or are dealing with emotional binging problems, what steps did you find useful to best control the tendency? Missy? Carbchick? The question you posted is the same that I would like to hear some answers to. Why are the emotions (rage, etc.) expressed through binging? And even more importantly, how to eliminate or reduce the tendency. What are the things most fundamental to attacking the problem?

I've done contests in the past but now I work at staying around 12% just to feel good. I'm also a woman with hormones and emotions.

I still binge occassionally - the trigger I have is a combination of being bored, tired, alone and emotionally frustrated.  I tend to binge on crunchy and/or salty snacks - like an entire bag of Doritos, nuts, popcorn or a box of cereal.  I am tryng to substitute celery for that urge to crunch.  Many of the foods I eat are mushy or chewy - very few have that c-r-u-n-c-h that help me get rid of my frustrations.


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## Cardinal (Sep 30, 2004)

Funny you mention it.  I like to do the same thing with carrots and cheap salad mix of carrots/cabbage and iceberg lettuce.  They even have the carrots cut like potatoe chips that work well with dipping.  Pretty neat idea.  When looking for an enjoyable meal, it really helps me to have something that is crunchy or more importantly something that takes a long time to eat per calorie ingested.  I'll have to try the celery idea.


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## Cardinal (Sep 30, 2004)

bulletproof1 said:
			
		

> first of all, most people here are not bb's to my knowledge. some here are that serious but most are here simply to be "fit." most of the new members that come here are usually looking to lose weight. if they go on a strict 7 day a week diet they will usually fail due to the overwhelming aspect of it. that is why i usually suggest to them to have a cheat day.



This is a point I hadn't considered.  I just assumed this was more of a bbing board than anything else (not actively competetive but at least composed of people that would label themselves bodybuilders before fitness enthusiasts).  But now that you mention it, having read through a fair number of journals here, many people do seem to have fitness as a top priority.

I think even for bingers after control is gained an occasional cheat day could work really well and provide an outlet to deal with problems staying strict in terms of food choices.  So long as it is not taken to the extreme (maybe just eating largely junk food on that day but not going overboard in volume or total calories).  Unfortunately for many, when they start eating something like chocolate cake or ice cream, they just can't seem to stop and it becomes a detrimental binge rather than a controlled planned cheat to relieve the stresses of dieting strictness.

Tkkarde wrote a very good article on M&M a good while back about extremes in bodybuilding and life further relating how bbing etc. can become an overwhelming obsession.  Breaks (cheats, time off training, having a fvcking beer every once in a while) can be quite cathartic.


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## carbchick (Sep 30, 2004)

Cardinal said:
			
		

> The plan I outlined therefore doesn't deal directly with those emotional issues that many have.  The structure can still help someone like that gain control but it doesn't attack the underlying emotional problem.



that's right, BUT the strategies are still damned helpful.   



> The way I would try to deal with such a problem if I had it would likely be to determine the emotional cause first and then find a rational way to avoid it in the future.



You'd be right there   How to do that, though, is the problem ...   the emotions you're hiding from with the food ... are the ones that make you want to binge ... easier then to keep hiding, keep stuffing them down ... rationality is too often far far away when the binge urge strikes. you're totally aware of it, that it has a hold and OH NO, NOT AGAIN but it's like a mania, something beyond your control. euch it's horrible. 
and of course you try to spot triggers retrospectively. and search for 'why'. 



> For those of you reading this that have dealt with or are dealing with  emotional binging problems, what steps did you find useful to best control the tendency?  Missy? Carbchick?  The question you posted is the same that I would like to hear some answers to.  Why are the emotions (rage, etc.) expressed through binging?  And even more importantly, how to eliminate or reduce the tendency.  What are the things most fundamental to attacking the problem?



 I DON'T KNOW!!!!  A mother who equates food with love and comfort? a missing or malfunctioning synapse? sheer boredom? 
to reduce the tendency, the stragegies you outlined at first help A LOT by as you said, restoring a sense of control. 
and to eliminate it? ... therapy? revisit past lives? rebirthing tank? live an entirely emotion-free existence?  colonic irrigation?   
sorry, I'm fresh out of ideas. I know that if I train consistently, eat regularly and don't obsess (too much) about Nameless Stuff, I'll be on top of it.

but I know it's Still There.


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## Cardinal (Oct 2, 2004)

Carbchick, 

Thanks for commenting!



> I know that if I train consistently, eat regularly and don't obsess (too much) about Nameless Stuff, I'll be on top of it.



Perhaps it is that training consistently and eating regularly in a general sense tends to promote positive emotional responses, while discouraging negative ones.

I read a book on Buddhism a while back that was very helpful to me in understanding what brought me happiness fundamentally.  One section dealt with emotions.  At the risk of butchering the author's ideas and misrepresenting Buddhism (been a awhile since I read it), I believe a central idea was that you can train your mind to lessen the severity of negative emotions and make them work positively in your favor.  Very different from western thinking and a psychiatric example given where people are tought only to cope with negative emotions rather than to overcome them fundamentally.

Examples were given for most negative emotions.  If for example you are worrying over something, the author suggested to first first rationally think through the issue and see if you can find a solution to your problem.  If so, there is no reason to worry (obsess!) over it.  If not, then it is not something that is within your direct control.  Once again, there is no reason to obsess over it.  

I think this line of reasoning could effectively be applied to many of the negative emotions that cause people to binge uncontrollably.  What I like most about the Buddhist line of reasoning is that emotional problems can be overcome more directly.  Learning to cope with them as many of us have been taught is perhaps far less effective.

-Cardinal


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## carbchick (Oct 5, 2004)

cheers cardinal for the thoughts. however I would like to know why my 'coping strategy' is to binge. because the problems will come and the stresses will occur, if I'm to live any kind of 'life'. yes worry is one of the most unproductive occupations out there. y'know, I put it down to emotional immaturity. every time I come up against my inability to cope, my 'lack', I try to fill up the space right there, with food. 

Its a very juvenile response. but you know when it happens, i 'know' that the binge will bring me relief, I know it's going to make me feel 'better' immediately (... and then obviously much, much worse.) the short-term satisfaction and its promise blots out the disgust that I know will inevitably follow. 

I have to find other ways to deal with the stress. not sure the buddhist way is going to do it for me though. point being for me, rationality is nowhere in the equation, mine is a purely emotional response to stress. I've tried to 'step in' and 'self-talk' with rational thoughts when 'the moment' comes upon me. it works in that it DELAYS the event, doesn't permanently remove the need .


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## AlphaFemale (Oct 5, 2004)

carbchick said:
			
		

> seems to me, speaking as a binger, that Cardinal's advice is totally on the money. And those who have seen fit to comment and are NOT bingers are really pulling it out of their ass.


I totally agree!

This is a great and helpful post! I feel the negative feedback by some posters is due to the fact that they never had an eating disorder.


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## Cardinal (Oct 5, 2004)

carbchick said:
			
		

> because the problems will come and the stresses will occur, if I'm to live any kind of 'life'. yes worry is one of the most unproductive occupations out there.
> 
> Its a very juvenile response. but you know when it happens, i 'know' that the binge will bring me relief, I know it's going to make me feel 'better' immediately (... and then obviously much, much worse.) the short-term satisfaction and its promise blots out the disgust that I know will inevitably follow.
> 
> I have to find other ways to deal with the stress.  point being for me, rationality is nowhere in the equation, mine is a purely emotional response to stress.



Some the comments in the above quote got me thinking.  This sort of emotional issue is well beyond the purview of my knowledge base.  It doesn't seem like the buddhist approach would work well either give your situation.  

How familiar are you with avant labs?  You might want to take a look at some of the posts by Dante and others scattered about the forum.  Definitely take a look at his article for M&M on happiness.  There is an incredible amount of dialogue and discussion that is bound to help.  It takes quite some time to browse through but is well worth the effort.  The depth of thinking and explanations are truly astonishing.


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## Dante B. (Oct 5, 2004)

Rauschgift said:
			
		

> That is horrible advise.



Cardinal was civil. That's good, because I get to be the asshole:

On a thread like this, you really should shut the fuck up unless you first:

Actually understand what the hell you're talking about

Two - explain what you mean on a thread where people are trying to overcome (often) debilitating disorders. 


If anything, you should eat _by the clock_ (in this case):

You're reprogramming your habits by synchronizing your actions with a consistent measure.

You can't simply "will" yourself into new habits. Often it requires a regimented approach. This type of precision may appear 'anal' to others, but it's absolutely necessary if the problems are severe enough. In time, you're simply resetting the wake/sleep cycle of your habits. 

"At two I'll have this. At five this.... so on."

Is quite different than:

"Don't binge! You can do it!"

I don't have an eating disorder, I never have. But, I've used the same approach in essence to deal with other psychological disturbances. This is meant simply as an addition to what Cardinal's already discussed.


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## Dante B. (Oct 5, 2004)

bulletproof1 said:
			
		

> if you are serious about your goals then binging wont be a factor. control your food - dont let in control you.





Every person who's sane, and above it all when discussing a disorder, often fails to realize their short-comings in other areas. Unconscious and selective ignorance, certainly not true dedication and willpower.

I guess that's why those who are "serious" by default - only in a few areas - are left to toss vacuities, never anything insightful or useful. When problems arise in other areas, then people such as that are left clueless with cute phrases which aren't even useful to them.

EDIT: I apologize if that was harsh. I just wanted to point that out in general.

Certain phrases and such may come in handy, but only to cement a pattern of routine and action into your mind.


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## Jodi (Oct 5, 2004)

carbchick said:
			
		

> seems to me, speaking as a binger, that Cardinal's advice is totally on the money. And those who have seen fit to comment and are NOT bingers are really pulling it out of their ass.


I have tried to stay out of this thread because I didn't want to blow up.  

I agree on Cardinal's advice.  Being an ex-binger myself (even occasionally it happens now) the non-bingers really have no clue and think they know the answers.


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## Dante B. (Oct 6, 2004)

missy24 said:
			
		

> For those of you reading this that have dealt with or are dealing with emotional binging problems, what steps did you find useful to best control the tendency? Missy? Carbchick? The question you posted is the same that I would like to hear some answers to. Why are the emotions (rage, etc.) expressed through binging? And even more importantly, how to eliminate or reduce the tendency. What are the things most fundamental to attacking the problem?



Want to address this:

In many cases, there isn't a distinct cause that you can pin the action down to. Or even a _single_, identifiable emotional trigger (e.g. "I'm angry with a friend who stabbed me in the back"). That's the case with many disorders and habits. I've had other issues, and I realized this in time; various triggers that fell under perceived anxiety reinforced the same habit.

If you're stressed out, or if you were stressed out in some moment in the past before the habit developed, food and especially carbs satisfy your emotional appetite. Certain repetitive habits (and thought patterns/loops) do as well - which was my issue with OCD, among other things. And it's easy for those habits to stick, even after the original cause has been extinguished. E.g: "I was anxious and sad one day, then I pigged out. The food calmed me down" - establishing an unconscious connection with food and relief, which persists when you're stressed out or emotionally disturbed. You unconsciously remember the how, not the why, and eventually draw on the drug that is the how when it serves a purpose in another situation. That's the essence of many habits, which is why the habit is often irreducible to a single, proper cause.

Food is readily available, and it was certainly easy to notice the profound effects it has on mood at some point along the way. It's even worse with dieters, which is where emotions have to be addressed:

If you're repeatedly dieting down to or attempting to maintain unhealthily low levels of bodyfat (speaking in general), then you're going to eventually binge. The binging will being immediate relief, and it will be hard to forget that - how it felt, how you felt. Even if you get back on track, it will be even worse now.

So even if you weren't originally a binger who was trying to deal with a fit of anxiety, you're now a binger who was forced to eat after a period of relative starvation. The effects are the same, and it will be even worse for the person who's not only trying to deal with emotions and anxiety, but also an unnatural physical state and negative self-image (bad habits aren't necessarily the result of negative self perception, in all situations).

The emotions aren't expressed through binging, rather, the binging is a newly discovered or previously established method of coping; food is a drug, as are actions - with perceived impact.

Some people are obsessed with food because they've left their bodies with no choice. Even if that's eventually addressed, the 'drug that is the how' may carry over into new situations where a remedy for anxiety is needed.

If it's an issue of negative self-perception, that has to be dealt with (e.g. "I can't weigh more than 115 pounds"). The steps are what Cardinal set down, and it will be difficult - not impossible. But in either case, it will help to stabilize the diet, write everything out in detail; without a visible plan, you're simply left with vague states and subsequent reactions.

If you have a written plan, then you can also establish satisfying alternatives. If you're anxious, and tend to binge, something as simple as a scheduled bout of sprinting or push ups could help - something that established a new outlet to effectively combat the sensation. Simply trying to stop yourself won't do it, nor will an action that doesn't provide nearly immediate relief and equal satisfaction (as say, a cigarette or a cheesecake could).

You'll go insane if you try to reduce certain habits to a single cause. But, you can certainly take measures against those habits, and replace them if you've drawn up a plan that factors in various states, repetitive actions, and the connections between them.

As said, it will be infinitely harder for a person with a negative physical self-perception, who's burning the candle at both ends. That requires a more personal, cognitive therapy - catching thoughts that frequently run through your head during various situations, identifying them, learning to dissect and then replace them, integrating them into a new pattern.

Here it's not simply a matter of habit - it's a layered condition, and someone won't be able to stop themselves from binging (or finding a replacement anodyne) if they don't establish a perception and routine that isn't inimical to their well-being (and this is something that many people, and many lifters can relate to). 

Many lifters, unfortunately and irrespective of binging, have fallen to habits as a result of this; reliance on drugs, odd rituals, so on - how many times you'll see "that's my last cycle......". That's why even those who aren't bingers should be able to relate - and find use for the information. Given the oft-obsessive nature of lifters, I see many related habits floating around that are rarely identified for what they are. So much for the "you can do it! Tony Robbins said so!" harlequin parade. 

A therapist is helpful, if you can't manage on your own; there's nothing wrong with that - many 'tough' guys are closet cowards who talk shit and drown in it behind closed doors. 

Just a few things to think about.


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## Dante B. (Oct 6, 2004)

carbchick said:
			
		

> cheers cardinal for the thoughts. however I would like to know why my 'coping strategy' is to binge. because the problems will come and the stresses will occur, if I'm to live any kind of 'life'. yes worry is one of the most unproductive occupations out there. y'know, I put it down to emotional immaturity. every time I come up against my inability to cope, my 'lack', I try to fill up the space right there, with food.
> 
> Its a very juvenile response



A response that's no different in essence from someone who frequently pounds one too many drinks, walls, or people. Except your coping strategy isn't emotionally immature 

How various people deal with stress isn't always observable or admitted. Few people know how to deal with stress; most people simply know how to hide it and channel it in ways you can't see, but that are detrimental nevertheless. If it makes you feel any better. 



> have to find other ways to deal with the stress. not sure the buddhist way is going to do it for me though. point being for me, rationality is nowhere in the equation, mine is a purely emotional response to stress. I've tried to 'step in' and 'self-talk' with rational thoughts when 'the moment' comes upon me. it works in that it DELAYS the event, doesn't permanently remove the need .



Reason doesn't solve anything on its own - it only guides you to alternative actions with sufficient impact. Once you write down a plan, a list of alternative as Cardinal stated here or elsewhere (food options that work with a bodybuilder's mentality - but in this case, 'food' is activity) then when a moment hits, you can choose among various activities that promote stress reduction. The options have to be reasonable, within your reach, viewable (a list, at first) and ready for employment. Otherwise, you're left with the same states of unrest and the reliable habits.

It doesn't have to be physical in nature, but physical activities are the most useful - the drug-like effects. You can't reason out the effects of a severe withdrawal, but reason can most definitely guide you to a suitable detox clinic that replaces your heroin with methadone.

There's great wisdom in "talking never solves anything," more than most people realize.


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## Vieope (Oct 6, 2004)

_Interesting, I never thought that repetitive habits was a form that the body had to  unsonciously try to stress relief itself. It is obvious but it never occurred to me. _


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## Dante B. (Oct 6, 2004)

In some circumstances. I'm not speaking in absolutes, but only in relation to this thread, with general parallels.


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## Vieope (Oct 6, 2004)

_I can´t see other explanation for OCD. Brain damage? Just a habit with no purpose?  _


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## Dante B. (Oct 6, 2004)

I'm not going to even attempt to address something I'm incapable of handling. Though, many people who label their habits as "OCD" - without diagnosis - are no different than those who self-diagnosed their "mood swings" as bipolar disorder.

However, speaking for myself - in terms of action, not thoughts on causes, here - when I manage my stress and channel my frustration into beneficial endeavors, I can get by just fine. If I simply "talk myself to better mental health," everything goes horribly wrong; it requires action and vigilance. Even "normal," healthy people, can fall terribly off track if they were previously normal only by default. If something happens, and they're not equipped to tackle it, they're no longer happy by habit.

But, that's not here or there.


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## Vieope (Oct 6, 2004)

_Yeah, I hate those people who do self-diagnosis.  _


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## Cardinal (Oct 6, 2004)

First off.  Thanks, Dante, for taking the time to write such a detailed response.  I do not doubt it will help many further understand the issues at hand.  You have a way with works, eloquent and to the point that seems to bring discussion to another plane of intellectual thought.



> The emotions aren't expressed through binging, rather, the binging is a newly discovered or previously established method of coping; food is a drug, as are actions - with perceived impact.



Thanks for the clarification.  This was/is something I am struggling to grasp a bit better.



> catching thoughts that frequently run through your head during various situations, identifying them, learning to dissect and then replace them, integrating them into a new pattern.



This is an interesting approach partly because it seems very appropriate to apply on a small time scale and can be effectively employed anytime the urge to binge strikes (or you have a negative thought pattern you don't want to reinforce).  Its general applications are profound.  It parallels closely the approaches I have seen you employ in the past, for example, breaking life down into fundamentals and rebuilding in order to make progress (toward happiness or whatever goals you may be working toward).  I think I can start to channel thought patterns like this in order to achieve balance and to make sure that my actions are indeed beneficial and are taking me toward my goals in an efficient manner (not just going around in circles repeating same old habits without understanding why I have those habits).



> Many lifters, unfortunately and irrespective of binging, have fallen to habits as a result of this; reliance on drugs, odd rituals, so on - how many times you'll see "that's my last cycle......". That's why even those who aren't bingers should be able to relate - and find use for the information.



Made me think back to the difference between reliance and harmony and between use and abuse.  This is also one reason why I didn't immediately retort that since some posters haven't experienced binging, their advice 'couldn't' be useful.  I didn't want to fall into what I saw as a common trap.  (similar to the "i'm bigger and more experienced therefore I know best regardless of my lack of reasoning type fallacy).



> And it's easy for those habits to stick, even after the original cause has been extinguished.  E.g: "I was anxious and sad one day, then I pigged out. The food calmed me down" - establishing an unconscious connection with food and relief, which persists when you're stressed out or emotionally disturbed. You unconsciously remember the how, not the why, and eventually draw on the drug that is the how when it serves a purpose in another situation. That's the essence of many habits, which is why the habit is often irreducible to a single, proper cause.



For those that haven't seen it, the Minnesota starvation study conducted by Keys, et al. in 1950 is worth examining closely to better understand the symptoms of severe hypocaloric dieting.  This also lends support to many of the ideas that Dante and others have brought up.  Take a look at it if you are so inclined.

Starvation Study

I'll comment more later.  I'll be able to absorb and integrate more of the material presented in some of the above posts after a second or third reading.  (My way of saying I am a bit slow to comprehend a fair amount of the time and don't want to overlook important points)

Thanks everyone for sharing.  This exactly the type of discussion and branching out I was hoping to get out of starting the thread initially.

-Cardinal


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## Cardinal (Oct 6, 2004)

> Reason doesn't solve anything on its own - it only guides you to alternative actions with sufficient impact. Once you write down a plan, a list of alternative as Cardinal stated here or elsewhere (food options that work with a bodybuilder's mentality - but in this case, 'food' is activity) then when a moment hits, you can choose among various activities that promote stress reduction. The options have to be reasonable, within your reach, viewable (a list, at first) and ready for employment. Otherwise, you're left with the same states of unrest and the reliable habits.



This is pretty much how I learned/am learning to control caloric intake at very diverse levels (1000kcals/day up to 4000+).

If I am running a very low calorie diet for instance, I will usually keep fluid, fiber, nicotine, ephedrine, food and now bromo handy to suppress appetite.  These are literally within my reach, usually right in my backpack.  Same goes for the rest of the alternative activities I try to keep in my head.  Even in the absense of tangible physical activities and means of regaining control, plenty of other options are still available.

Intellectual engagement of various sorts work incredibly well to channel thoughts.  For me that often includes becoming involved in class discussions (as a student), reading a book or magazine, or researching something I am dying to get my hands on.  Making a simple daily/weekly to-do list helps me as well.  I can see right in front of me all the things that I would like to accomplish that would not be accomplished if I just sat around and binged for 2 hours and ended up in an insulin coma.  Make the list then choose the appropriate activity and take action to move toward your goals, taking care to balance extreme tendencies (if this is an issue for you).

As a further point, having a list to refer to helps with anticipation.  If you realize what patterns tend to repeat themselves and gain experience understanding those patterns, you won't be surprised when the urge hits.  That anticipation and predictive power helps directly to control the situation.

Finally, having a bunch of optional activities to combat the problem is all well and good.  But to take it a step further, it helps to figure out which of those activity options are pertinent for a given situation.  If you choose the wrong appetite suppressive mechanism for example, you may be left feeling unfullfilled or may encourage a negative outcome.  On a number of occasions, I have found myself reaching for more nicotine gum when in fact it would have helped much more to just drink some water.  Again maintaining a balance helps.


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