# What supplements really work??



## ZECH (May 27, 2009)

There have been many discussions and a general anti sentiment attitude towards supplements. What works and what does not work? Well, that is a loaded question. It really depends on you, the user and what your diet and training is like. Supplements are just that - something to give you an edge on your training. I will tell you that if your diet and training are not locked down, then taking supplements and expecting them to give you the results you want is spinning your wheels. There are no magic pills. Bodybuilding or just staying in shape takes hard work and dedictation along with a dedicated diet. The supplement industry is a muti billion dollar a year machine. Now, if people did not think supplements actually worked, do you think there would be that kind of money spent on them? Well, IMO there are some things that work and some things that are totally useless. I think you can also break it down into several different catagories. You can go from the minimum basics like creatine, a multi vitamin and a good protein product, to literally thousands of other products that claim to do anything you are looking for. Choosing the right supplement or from the right company may be a tough task. You also have to wade through all the marketing crap and hype to actually compare ingredient profiles. Where you purchase supplements and what you pay for them is also important.
 I want to use this thread as a place for questions and answers about any products. I don't want it to turn into a poll type thread where a question such as "what protein is best" type of thing, but use it more toward specific type questions of products.


----------



## ALBOB (May 27, 2009)

Okay, here's one I know I've asked before but have forgotten the answer.  Is there an EFFECTIVE pro-hormone on the market that won't mess with my liver enzymes?


----------



## ZECH (May 27, 2009)

ALBOB said:


> Okay, here's one I know I've asked before but have forgotten the answer.  Is there an EFFECTIVE pro-hormone on the market that won't mess with my liver enzymes?



Any substance you take, be it a supplement or else, passes through the liver at some point. Methylated substances are the ones that are of concern because they are made to prevent the first pass destruction caused by the liver. The methyl prevents it from being broken down and that is what places stress on the liver. Any ph that is not methylated, will be much safer but not necessarily free of risks. One of note that has been receiving great feedback on several boards is 1-androsterone. Prince has his own version and is worth a try.
1-Andro Rx??? Pro-Hormone
Now I still tell people that if you are looking to gain weight and size, it is still diet dependant. You gotta eat big to make gains.


----------



## Nick+ (May 27, 2009)

Why not just whey and lots of effort with the weights? Many people seem to have have lost the plot , with all these supplement companies and their hard sell.


----------



## ALBOB (May 27, 2009)

dg806 said:


> Now I still tell people that if you are looking to gain weight and size, it is still diet dependant. You gotta eat big to make gains.



And you think that's a problem for me???


----------



## ZECH (May 27, 2009)

Nick+ said:


> Why not just whey and lots of effort with the weights? Many people seem to have have lost the plot , with all these supplement companies and their hard sell.



True to a point. I think most people want and desire a quick fix and tend to forget that it is a long road that takes years. Nobody wants to put in the work anymore.


----------



## ALBOB (May 27, 2009)

Nick+ said:


> Why not just whey and lots of effort with the weights? Many people seem to have have lost the plot , with all these supplement companies and their hard sell.



Because eventually some people reach a point where 2+2 only equals 3 1/2.  I'd like to add a little kick to my effort.


----------



## Pirate! (May 27, 2009)

I'm a big believer in many supplements. As pointed out, the biggest problems are:

1) Marketing hype that the majority of consumers have no way of sifting through--and it's not their fault.

2) People don't understand the limitation of supplements and their inability to make up for poor lifestyle choices or lack of discipline.


----------



## ZECH (May 27, 2009)

ALBOB said:


> And you think that's a problem for me???



LMAO, since I have seen you in person..........................NO!


----------



## nni (May 27, 2009)

Nick+ said:


> Why not just whey and lots of effort with the weights? Many people seem to have have lost the plot , with all these supplement companies and their hard sell.



because there are many supplements that work. that is the reality of it. that doesnt mean you have to use them, but to act as if they arent beneficial is just silly.


----------



## Chubby (May 28, 2009)

Does anyone know which one of the following is the most beneficial to take *right after* the workout? 
1. Steak
2. Fast absorbing whey isolate
3. Chicken
4. Fish
5. Cottage Cheese


----------



## nkira (May 28, 2009)

I would say Fast absorbing whey isolate.....

But it's very personal.....everybody is built differently.......unless we are talking roids.

 Pirate....





chobby192 said:


> Does anyone know which one of the following is the most beneficial to take *right after* the workout?
> 1. Steak
> 2. Fast absorbing whey isolate
> 3. Chicken
> ...


----------



## ZECH (May 28, 2009)

chobby192 said:


> Does anyone know which one of the following is the most beneficial to take *right after* the workout?
> 1. Steak
> 2. Fast absorbing whey isolate
> 3. Chicken
> ...



LOL, you need carbs in there also!


----------



## Built (May 28, 2009)

chobby192 said:


> Does anyone know which one of the following is the most beneficial to take *right after* the workout?
> 1. Steak
> 2. Fast absorbing whey isolate
> 3. Chicken
> ...



If you've eaten enough - and properly - before your workout, what you eat after is not critical. Just eat a mixed meal and be done with it.


----------



## Marat (May 28, 2009)

Built said:


> If you've eaten enough - and properly - before your workout, what you eat after is not critical. Just eat a mixed meal and be done with it.



What about all that stuff about post-workout  insulin spikes and large amount of protein to induce hyperaminoacidemia and all that stuff.


----------



## Built (May 28, 2009)

If you have eaten well through the day, you'll have an available pool of amino acids. 

You won't need to spike insulin if you aren't completely starved. 

Some folks like the "spike it afterward" approach. Some prefer to eat a modest mixed meal an hour or so beforehand, sip a dilute whey and dextrose shake during, and just eat a solid meal afterward. 

It all works.


----------



## Chubby (May 28, 2009)

dg806 said:


> LOL, you need carbs in there also!


You know there is supplement for that too, don't you? My point is, supplement plays its own important role in bodybuilding where it can work better than real foods. After all supplements are real foods not some kind of combination of chemicals.


----------



## Kevsworld (May 28, 2009)

Personally I'm just not impressed with prohormones.  I tried them a few years back and didn't get much out of them.


----------



## ZECH (May 29, 2009)

Built said:


> If you've eaten enough - and properly - before your workout, what you eat after is not critical. Just eat a mixed meal and be done with it.



I disagree with this. It is extremely critical if you want to gain size.


----------



## Marat (May 29, 2009)

dg806 said:


> I disagree with this. It is extremely critical if you want to gain size.



Would you mind elaborating in terms of the nature of the macronutrients that should be consumed as well as perhaps the percentage of total daily calories that should be consumed post workout?


----------



## ZECH (May 29, 2009)

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.


----------



## ZECH (May 29, 2009)

3.) Dietary strategies to promote glycogen synthesis after exercise.

Ivy JL.

Exercise Physiology and Metabolism Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology and Health Education, The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, TX, USA.

Muscle glycogen is an essential fuel for prolonged intense exercise, and therefore it is important that the glycogen stores be copious for competition and strenuous training regimens. While early research focused on means of increasing the muscle glycogen stores in preparation for competition and its day-to-day replenishment, recent research has focused on the most effective means of promoting its replenishment during the early hours of recovery. It has been observed that muscle glycogen synthesis is twice as rapid if carbohydrate is consumed immediately after exercise as opposed to waiting several hours, and that a rapid rate of synthesis can be maintained if carbohydrate is consumed on a regular basis. For example, supplementing at 30-min intervals at a rate of 1.2 to 1.5 g CHO x kg(-1) body wt x h(-1) appears to maximize synthesis for a period of 4- to 5-h post exercise. If a lighter carbohydrate supplement is desired, however, glycogen synthesis can be enhanced with the addition of protein and certain amino acids. Furthermore, the combination of carbohydrate and protein has the added benefit of stimulating amino acid transport, protein synthesis and muscle tissue repair. Research suggests that aerobic performance following recovery is related to the degree of muscle glycogen replenishment.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 11897899 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


----------



## ZECH (May 29, 2009)

The primary reason for consuming carbohydrate post-workout is two-fold:

1. To cause an insulin spike, which in turn will suppress cortisol and help create a positive net protein balance for muscle growth
2. to restore muscle glycogen stores.

Now you hear alot about dextrose and such being used post workout. IMO and experience, the little bit of gain you may get from this, to me doesn't offset the fat gain. I opt to use oats/oatmeal in a post workout shake and you get the same insulin response without the added fat gain.


----------



## Marat (May 29, 2009)

Is this pertinent to all goals? For overfat/potentially carb sensitive individuals who train to protect LBM and diet to decrease BF%, is it still recommended to take in carbs post workout?


----------



## Marat (May 29, 2009)

dg806 said:


> I opt to use oats/oatmeal in a post workout shake and you get the same insulin response without the added fat gain.



If you are within calories, why would dextrose promote fat gain while oats wouldn't? Isn't it all principally glucose anyways?


----------



## ZECH (May 29, 2009)

m11 said:


> Is this pertinent to all goals? For overfat/potentially carb sensitive individuals who train to protect LBM and diet to decrease BF%, is it still recommended to take in carbs post workout?



Alot would argue it is not necessary. But if you can't keep or get your body in a state to build muscle, how can it protect the muscle you have?


----------



## ZECH (May 29, 2009)

m11 said:


> If you are within calories, why would dextrose promote fat gain while oats wouldn't? Isn't it all principally glucose anyways?



From Loki.....interesting

dextrose/glucose polymers stimulate such a rapid blood-glucose rise that the insulin spike should be considered transient in regards to 'fat-blunting' purposes. And, since your dextrose/glucose will never (within reason) store itself as fat, there's no reason to opt for oatmeal under the assumption that the lower-insulin spike will 'get you leaner.' If it gets you leaner it's only because 1 cup of oatmeal only has about 50g CHO, and if you switch from a 100g dextrose shake, wham, you just cut 200 kcals, and you're going to start to see weight loss.


----------



## Marat (May 29, 2009)

dg806 said:


> From Loki.....interesting
> 
> dextrose/glucose polymers stimulate such a rapid blood-glucose rise that the insulin spike should be considered transient in regards to 'fat-blunting' purposes. And, since your dextrose/glucose will never (within reason) store itself as fat, there's no reason to opt for oatmeal under the assumption that the lower-insulin spike will 'get you leaner.' If it gets you leaner it's only because 1 cup of oatmeal only has about 50g CHO, and if you switch from a 100g dextrose shake, wham, you just cut 200 kcals, and you're going to start to see weight loss.




From a personal perspective, I track everything that I take in. I believe I read in another thread that you personally do not think the utility of tracking is worth the effort, but that's for a different discussion. Anyway, given that every calorie is accounted for, are you suggesting that GI is then irrelevant?(i.e, if one was to take in 50g CHO, it's irrelevant if the 50g comes from oatmeal or vegetables or something like a bagel or pasta).


----------



## ZECH (May 29, 2009)

m11 said:


> From a personal perspective, I track everything that I take in. I believe I read in another thread that you personally do not think the utility of tracking is worth the effort, but that's for a different discussion. Anyway, given that every calorie is accounted for, are you suggesting that GI is then irrelevant?(i.e, if one was to take in 50g CHO, it's irrelevant if the 50g comes from oatmeal or vegetables or something like a bagel or pasta).



No, I didn't say it wasn't worth it.......for me it isn't. If you have specific goals or if you compete, then it is.
The GI issue is highly debated. You can find arguments for low GI and Hi GI. IMO, both give you the needed insulin response, but weather one works better than the other is of question. When you study GH release and related IGF-1 response, that gets into technical stuff that very little is known about and is limited to a number of factors like genetic make-up, time of day, age, gender, exercise status, stress levels, nutrition level and body mass index.
I have tried both. I did tend to gain weight with dextrose, but I took at least 75g with a shake which may have been too much. I have seen posts that say alot less is required to get an insulin response. But again that's another discussion also. But lately I have been doing oatmeal in a protein shake after workout(I'd guess 30-40g carbs) and I am very happy with that. Again, it may be one of those things where personal preference and effects come into play.


----------



## Built (May 29, 2009)

Built said:


> If you've eaten enough - and properly - before your workout, what you eat after is not critical. Just eat a mixed meal and be done with it.





Built said:


> If you have eaten well through the day, you'll have an available pool of amino acids.
> 
> You won't need to spike insulin if you aren't completely starved.
> 
> ...





dg806 said:


> I disagree with this. It is extremely critical if you want to gain size.



In general, I would probably agree with you. Personally, I've found that by paying attention to how my body feels after a meal, I can tinker with the timing of pre and post workout nutrition in a way that works well with my particularly insulin-resistant old body. When I'm more insulin-sensitive, post workout carbs "feel" right to me. When I'm not, they make me hungry - a sure sign I'm overproducing insulin and not partitioning well. Not everybody is so finely tuned to the relationship between insulin sensitivity and how they feel at different bodyfat levels, I'm the first to admit. It took me a looooong time to work this part out for myself. 

For a young man who is not particularly over-fat and who is using reasonable training volume for his well-set-up workouts, plenty of heavy compounds etc, the increased insulin sensitivity in the postworkout window is a great time to enhance glucose uptake, and a little pop of insulin to blunt cortisol will do a body good. 

Post-workout, as many of you know, glucose transporters remain translocated to the surface of your muscle cells, mediating increased glucose uptake even in the absence of insulin. You certainly don't need to "spike" insulin at this time to encourage glucose uptake.

DG, perhaps this is why you are noticing this need not be a massive glucose-induced spike - your oats are working just fine for you, and you are likely well and properly nourished pre workout as well. 

There is a great deal of research that suggests pre- and during-workout nutrition may be more critical than postworkout nutrition in this regard. 

Noteworthy is Tipton et al, 2001:
Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise -- Tipton et al. 281 (2): E197 -- AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Aug;281(2):E197-206.
*Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise.*
Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR.
Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas 77550, USA. ktipton@utmb.edu



> The present study was designed to determine whether consumption of an oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement (EAC) before exercise results in a greater anabolic response than supplementation after resistance exercise. Six healthy human subjects participated in two trials in random order, PRE (EAC consumed immediately before exercise), and POST (EAC consumed immediately after exercise). A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-(2)H(5)]phenylalanine, femoral arteriovenous catheterization, and muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis were used to determine phenylalanine concentrations, enrichments, and net uptake across the leg. Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations were increased by approximately 130% after drink consumption in both trials. Amino acid delivery to the leg was increased during exercise and remained elevated for the 2 h after exercise in both trials. Delivery of amino acids (amino acid concentration times blood flow) was significantly greater in PRE than in POST during the exercise bout and in the 1st h after exercise (P < 0.05). Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg was greater (P = 0.0002) during PRE (209 +/- 42 mg) than during POST (81 +/- 19). Phenylalanine disappearance rate, an indicator of muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids, increased after EAC consumption in both trials. *These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg*.



<snip>
From "Discussion", in the full version:



> The ingestion of a relatively small amount of essential amino acids, combined with carbohydrates, is an effective stimulator of net muscle protein synthesis. The stimulation of net muscle protein synthesis when EAC is consumed before exercise is superior to that when EAC is consumed after exercise. The combination of increased amino acid levels at a time when blood flow is increased appears to offer the maximum stimulation of muscle protein synthesis by increasing amino acid delivery to the muscle and thus amino acid availability.



Now I'm not saying post workout nutrition should be ignored - just that it need not be the insulin spiking WHACK many of us have been lead to believe - although if you handle that insulin and glucose well, have at 'er, by all means.


----------



## ZECH (May 29, 2009)

Yeah, thats the thing. You can find studies that show either support. I have seen both sides many times. 
That is why I said personal preference and results may be the only thing that is truely important.


----------



## Built (May 29, 2009)

Have you noticed the common element in all these studies?

You want a muscle to grow? EAT!


----------



## Marat (May 29, 2009)

dg806 said:


> Yeah, thats the thing. You can find studies that show either support. I have seen both sides many times.



Just for those that haven't: 

Effect of carbohydrate intake on net muscle protein synthesis during recovery from resistance exercise -- Børsheim et al. 96 (2): 674 -- Journal of Applied Physiology

"We conclude that ingestion of carbohydrates improved net leg protein balance after resistance exercise. However, the effect was minor and delayed compared with the previously reported effect of ingestion of amino acids."


----------



## Built (May 29, 2009)

dg, just to be clear - I am by no means denying the benefit of carbohydrate and protein for postworkout nutrition - it helps, but not as much as it will when used preworkout. If you CAN do both - that is to say, comfortably, without going over on your calories etc - you should. If your comfort, your calories or your lifestyle demand that you feel you must choose one or the other, pre is by far of more impact than post.


----------



## nkira (May 29, 2009)

Lately you have been ALMOST chanting that word.....




Built said:


> Have you noticed the common element in all these studies?
> 
> You want a muscle to grow? EAT!


----------



## Jeniffer09 (May 30, 2009)

*Wellness for Your Body???s Inside and Out*

We have to live in wellness for our body to functions at its peak. However, guilty pleasure and convenience come in many forms that our body cannot resist???compromising our pursuit of wellness.  Ready to eat mixes and fast food are available anywhere we go. Automated machineries are readily functional, disabling us to do even little tasks but nonetheless healthy for our body.


----------



## ZECH (Aug 27, 2010)

Thought this deserved a good BUMP


----------



## boxingorilla (Aug 30, 2010)

dg806 said:


> True to a point. I think most people want and desire a quick fix and tend to forget that it is a long road that takes years. Nobody wants to put in the work anymore.




I tell people all the time.  The guys who take steroids are some of the most hard working cats in the gym, hands down.  I agree with your OP that if you don't have your diet and routine straight then you won't gain anything from a supplement.


----------



## gopro (Aug 30, 2010)

dg806 said:


> There have been many discussions and a general anti sentiment attitude towards supplements. What works and what does not work? Well, that is a loaded question. It really depends on you, the user and what your diet and training is like. Supplements are just that - something to give you an edge on your training. I will tell you that if your diet and training are not locked down, then taking supplements and expecting them to give you the results you want is spinning your wheels. There are no magic pills. Bodybuilding or just staying in shape takes hard work and dedictation along with a dedicated diet. The supplement industry is a muti billion dollar a year machine. Now, if people did not think supplements actually worked, do you think there would be that kind of money spent on them? Well, IMO there are some things that work and some things that are totally useless. I think you can also break it down into several different catagories. You can go from the minimum basics like creatine, a multi vitamin and a good protein product, to literally thousands of other products that claim to do anything you are looking for. Choosing the right supplement or from the right company may be a tough task. You also have to wade through all the marketing crap and hype to actually compare ingredient profiles. Where you purchase supplements and what you pay for them is also important.
> I want to use this thread as a place for questions and answers about any products. I don't want it to turn into a poll type thread where a question such as "what protein is best" type of thing, but use it more toward specific type questions of products.



Good stuff buddy. I have a short list of product that I actually take year round...and that have proven to me over time to be truly valuable as an adjunct to proper diet and training. These would be:

-vitamin/mineral/anitoxidant
-BCAA's
-creatine
-beta alanine
-glutamine
-EFA's

I am also VERY glad that I work with a company that takes so much care in testing their products to make sure they contain only what they are supposed to, in the proper amounts and with no contaminants of any kind.


----------



## JA1977 (Sep 13, 2010)

*Gold's Gym*

Has anyone tried the new Gold's Gym supplements yet? wondering what they're like. GGSupplements


----------



## cavtrooper96 (Sep 13, 2010)

dg806 said:


> True to a point. I think most people want and desire a quick fix and tend to forget that it is a long road that takes years. Nobody wants to put in the work anymore.



True that! What can I take that I will gain 25 lbs of muscle while eating potato chips and playing nintendo?


----------



## OutWhey (Sep 13, 2010)

The best supplement I have ever used in Need2Slin.


----------

