# "Issues" during PCT



## malfeasance (Jan 23, 2012)

I am on day 12 of PCT following a mild test - Deca cycle.  

clomid 100/100/75/50 aromasin 25/25/12.5/12.5
No blood tests.
I am strong as an ox - I have not lost any strength yet from the cycle.  The issue I am having is low libido.  Low drive and erection problems the last couple of days not cured by Cia from CEM (1 ml dose).
Oddly, I wake up at 4-5 a.m. every morning with a raging erection, but, after 10 mins of vigorous "activity" with my girlfriend this morning, even THAT just slowly went away.  
This is very frustrating for her and me, and she does not know that I just did a cycle or that I am in PCT, so all of a sudden this loss of libido is coming along with no explanation.
IS THERE an explanation?  This is my second cycle, and during PCT from my first cycle I was not seeing a "regular" girlfriend, so I do not know if this is normal and temporary.
No other issues of which I am aware.  
Normal during PCT?  If so, how long will this last?


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## Robalo (Jan 23, 2012)

Always happens to me at the 2nd week of pct but it returns to normal by the end of it. Sometimes i extend the clomid to 5 weeks


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## malfeasance (Jan 23, 2012)

Robalo said:


> Always happens to me at the 2nd week of pct but it returns to normal by the end of it. Sometimes i extend the clomid to 5 weeks


 
Whew!

I have a little getaway planned with her in a few weeks, and this issue would absolutely ruin it!


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## Dath (Jan 23, 2012)

It's common bro, stick with your pct , and you can always get some Cialis to help to help out. Gotta keep the girlfriend happy


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## Robalo (Jan 23, 2012)

yeah, brother, that's not cool. Luckily the wifey understands these "downs"


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## malfeasance (Jan 23, 2012)

Dath said:


> you can always get some Cialis to help to help out. Gotta keep the girlfriend happy


 Well, that is what really worried me.  From my first post: 


malfeasance said:


> Low drive and erection problems the last couple of days not cured by Cia from CEM (1 ml dose).


 
1 ml is a lot, but the problem remained an hour later.  Got started up, but ten to fifteen to twenty minutes in (was not watching the clock) it just slowly went away.


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## colochine (Jan 23, 2012)

What did your cycle look like? How long after your last pin did you wait to start PCT?

It sounds like deca dick to me, the test cleared but some deca still remains possibly?

Did you have any issue on cycle? Did you use anything for prolactin? Caber or prami?

Maybe look into getting one of those.


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## malfeasance (Jan 23, 2012)

colochine said:


> What did your cycle look like? How long after your last pin did you wait to start PCT?
> 
> It sounds like deca dick to me, the test cleared but some deca still remains possibly?
> 
> ...


Test 600, Deca 300 weekly, stopped Deca 4.5 weeks before stopping test, and ramped the test down slowly. Two weeks from last test pin to start PCT.

Used HCG at beginning of cycle, but not end. I had purchased enough for the cycle at 250 x 2 weekly, but had to double it to keep the balls large, and then ran out a little over halfway through the cycle. Doh! Of course, balls promptly shrank and remain so.

No issues on cycle, other than growing 22 pounds and having the libido of a teenager (something my girlfriend actually said a few weeks ago!). I used prami for prolactin even though some stated it was not needed on only 300 weekly of Deca. I continued Prami for 5 or 6 weeks after stopping Deca.

Like I said, mild cycle. Deca should have cleared, although the way my strength is staying up makes me wonder, but the normal advice is to wait to more weeks while continuing test, and I waited more than a month.


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## rage racing (Jan 23, 2012)

Maybe the Aromasin is bunk or you need more? Estro rebound...


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## malfeasance (Jan 23, 2012)

rage racing said:


> Maybe the Aromasin is bunk or you need more? Estro rebound...


 Assuming I would need blood tests to determine this, right?  No other issues, like tingly nips and such that would normally occur during high estro . . .


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## Dath (Jan 23, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Assuming I would need blood tests to determine this, right?  No other issues, like tingly nips and such that would normally occur during high estro . . .



Yes  bloodwork  would be the only definate way


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## XYZ (Jan 23, 2012)

rage racing said:


> Maybe the Aromasin is bunk or you need more? Estro rebound...


 

Aromasin is a suicidal A/I so the possiblity of rebound is none.


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## XYZ (Jan 23, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Test 600, Deca 300 weekly, stopped Deca 4.5 weeks before stopping test, and ramped the test down slowly. Two weeks from last test pin to start PCT.
> 
> Used HCG at beginning of cycle, but not end. I had purchased enough for the cycle at 250 x 2 weekly, but had to double it to keep the balls large, and then ran out a little over halfway through the cycle. Doh! Of course, balls promptly shrank and remain so.
> 
> ...


 

It "sounds" like you did everything correct.  That being said, everyone is different and it just might take you a little longer. How old are you?  The older you are the longer it might take to recover.


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## malfeasance (Jan 23, 2012)

XYZ said:


> How old are you? The older you are the longer it might take to recover.


 Oh, I am OOOOLLLD.    44.  Most people are shocked to discover that, but my birth certificate does not lie.


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## malfeasance (Jan 23, 2012)

Dath said:


> Yes bloodwork would be the only definate way


 Scheduled, so we shall see shortly.


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## rage racing (Jan 23, 2012)

XYZ said:


> Aromasin is a suicidal A/I so the possiblity of rebound is none.


True


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## XYZ (Jan 23, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Oh, I am OOOOLLLD.  44. Most people are shocked to discover that, but my birth certificate does not lie.


 

This could be part of the issue.  You're not old, just mature.


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## rc771 (Jan 23, 2012)

yeah i've had the same experiences at about 2 weeks...


i'm like 3 weeks past pct right now and i'm still having trouble adjusting to not wanting to fuck 20 times a day like when i was on lol...


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## Calves of Steel (Jan 23, 2012)

You did everything right man. Scar tissue or blood flow issues can slow down the removal of gear from depots and extend its half life, I'd say extend the clomid and use some cialis or something to keep the GF happy


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## exphys88 (Jan 23, 2012)

any chance it's psychological?  Have you been worried about this happening?  I'm guessing that all the discussion of ED during pct has some guys so freaked about it that they create problems that don't exist.  Not saying this happens to everyone, but the mind can really fuck you.


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## malfeasance (Jan 24, 2012)

Dath said:


> Yes bloodwork would be the only definate way


 Blood drawn today - results are 24-72 hours.


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## Dath (Jan 24, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Blood drawn today - results are 24-72 hours.



Excellent bro

Exphysiologist made a good point to bro ! Is it possible?


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## malfeasance (Jan 24, 2012)

Possible?  I suppose, but I am not really sure how I could tell if this is the case.


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## Dath (Jan 24, 2012)

Well know soon Enough bro !


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## exphys88 (Jan 24, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Possible?  I suppose, but I am not really sure how I could tell if this is the case.



I've heard to test it while you're alone, and not worried about performance.  watch some porn, and see if you have issues then.


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## SloppyJ (Jan 24, 2012)

In for blood work.


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## malfeasance (Jan 24, 2012)

exphysiologist88 said:


> I've heard to test it while you're alone, and not worried about performance. watch some porn, and see if you have issues then.


 


Ok, so I was alone  and everything worked ok.    Don't tell anybody.

Then she decided about 12 hours later to perform oral, and everything worked ok.



Not sure what the . . . 

Anyway blood test results should be here tomorrow (or up until 72 hours).


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## exphys88 (Jan 24, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Ok, so I was alone  and everything worked ok.    Don't tell anybody.
> 
> Then she decided about 12 hours later to perform oral, and everything worked ok.
> 
> ...



A good percentage of Ed is psychological.  Worrying about not getting it up can cause it to not go up.


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## malfeasance (Jan 25, 2012)

Testosterone, serum 117 on a scale of 348 to 1197

Ouch!

LH is 0.2 on a scale of 1.7 to 8.6

Ouch!

FSH, serum 0.5 on a scale of 1.5 to 12.4

And

Estradiol 24.1 on a scale of 7.6 to 42.6


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## XYZ (Jan 25, 2012)

These are your numbers after 2 weeks?  If so get labs done again in another 4-6 weeks.

You're recovering still, obviously you need more time.


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## malfeasance (Jan 25, 2012)

Correct.


*Blood test on day 14 of PCT*. Testosterone, LH, and FSH very, very low, as in off the charts low, and Estradiol in the range of normal, that is, if I had regular testosterone levels. PCT is standard clomid 100/100/75/50 aromasin 25/25/12.5/12.5.


Testosterone, serum *117* on a scale of 348 to 1197

LH is *0.2* on a scale of 1.7 to 8.6

FSH, serum *0.5* on a scale of 1.5 to 12.4

Estradiol *24.1* on a scale of 7.6 to 42.6



I amm continuing on with my 4 week PCT (now in week three, doing 75 clomid and 12.5 aromasin).  

Based on the numbers above, who here would make changes to the PCT?

Has anybody else here doing PCT bloodwork had similarly off the charts low test, LH, and FSH by the end of the second week of PCT?  It was a little disturbing to see such low numbers.


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## exphys88 (Jan 25, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Testosterone, serum 117 on a scale of 348 to 1197
> 
> Ouch!
> 
> ...



yikes.  Well, we know why your libido is low.


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## malfeasance (Jan 25, 2012)

Also, slightly high hematocrit numbers, but I understand that is normal on cycle.


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## malfeasance (Jan 25, 2012)

exphysiologist88 said:


> yikes. Well, we know why your libido is low.


 Suggestions?


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## exphys88 (Jan 25, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Suggestions?



I don't think these numbers are abnormal for only being 2 weeks into your pct.  I recently did a pct and after 4 weeks my test was 317.  You just need to give it another 4-6 weeks.  

I am surprised you estradiol is that high for having such low test and taking 25 mg of aromasin.  I had to drop my aromasin a couple weeks into pct because my estradiol was 7.  My aromasin was from chemone.


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## pieguy (Jan 25, 2012)

I'm pretty sure most people suffer from piss poor LH/FSH and test levels in week 2 of PCT. I didn't get an increase in libido until 3 weeks post PCT, but I was able to get it up and keep it up throughout PCT. If you're still feeling weak/depressed/losing mass at a considerable rate a few weeks PCT, you might need to stay on the clomid/stane for an extra few weeks then retest.


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## XYZ (Jan 25, 2012)

Just give it time, it's not going to happen over night.  Deca is very supressive.


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## malfeasance (Jan 25, 2012)

XYZ said:


> Just give it time, it's not going to happen over night. Deca is very supressive.


 Still frustrating.  

So, you would just continue on like I am, week three, clomid 75, aromasin 12.5?


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## malfeasance (Jan 25, 2012)

exphysiologist88 said:


> I don't think these numbers are abnormal for only being 2 weeks into your pct. I recently did a pct and after 4 weeks my test was 317. You just need to give it another 4-6 weeks.
> 
> I am surprised you estradiol is that high for having such low test and taking 25 mg of aromasin. I had to drop my aromasin a couple weeks into pct because my estradiol was 7. My aromasin was from chemone.


 exphysiologist88, were your test and LH and FSH numbers this low at 2 weeks?  Do you think I should increase the aromasin dosage?  I am now in week three at 12.5 daily.


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## XYZ (Jan 25, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Still frustrating.
> 
> So, you would just continue on like I am, week three, clomid 75, aromasin 12.5?


 

Not frustrating at all.  It is what it is.  You feel great on cycle but after (if you're not on TRT) the price you pay evens everything out.

It's just a part of cycling.

Yes, continue on like I previously said and then update labs.  Honestly, you're lucky you can function at all (sexually).


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## hypo_glycemic (Jan 25, 2012)

exphysiologist88 said:


> A good percentage of Ed is psychological. Worrying about not getting it up can cause it to not go up.


 
After last years competition season, I ran clomid and had the same ED problems. I think once you have that first "let down" with your girl, it can have a psychological affect on you thinking you're going to have a problem. Even with Cialis, if you think your not going to perform well..it's game over! I just went through 3 months of that shit!


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## malfeasance (Jan 25, 2012)

hypo_glycemic said:


> that first "let down" with your girl, it can have a psychological affect on you thinking you're going to have a problem. Even with Cialis, if you think your not going to perform well..it's game over! I just went through *3 months* of that shit!


 Oh, please, no, not 3 months!


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## pieguy (Jan 25, 2012)

If you're having trouble for three months, you probably need some libido boosters like melanotan II, ultra male RX, etc. etc. Cialis only treats the ED and isn't going to increase your appetite for sex at all.

Most people start feeling much better a week or two after PCT. Don't ever expect to feel awesome when running clomid.


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## exphys88 (Jan 25, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> exphysiologist88, were your test and LH and FSH numbers this low at 2 weeks?  Do you think I should increase the aromasin dosage?  I am now in week three at 12.5 daily.



I didn't test anything until week 4 of pct, and my fsh and lh were low, but barely below the reference range.  

You've really got to work on not worrying about the ED or it'll make it worse.  If you can get it up no problem by yourself, then it's in your head, it's not a physiological problem.  I know it's easier said than done.


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## hypo_glycemic (Jan 25, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Oh, please, no, not 3 months!


 
Wasn't on PCT for 3 months, but after an during clomid, I had a myriad of issues with test levels and a unability (without Test) to get my libido running again! YES 3 months! Been doing this over 20 years and happens quite frequently with a lot of people- if they want to admit it or not


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## hypo_glycemic (Jan 25, 2012)

pieguy said:


> If you're having trouble for three months, you probably need some libido boosters like melanotan II, ultra male RX, etc. etc. Cialis only treats the ED and isn't going to increase your appetite for sex at all.
> 
> Most people start feeling much better a week or two after PCT. Don't ever expect to feel awesome when running clomid.


 
My wife and I own a supplement store..I was trying yohimbe, tribulus, Stamina RX, Viagra, you name it I was trying! I was so such down. My Dr gave me some Test Gel and that helped out. I didn't want to go back on due to some liver issues.


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## malfeasance (Jan 25, 2012)

exphysiologist88 said:


> You've really got to work on not worrying about the ED or it'll make it worse.


 She is really pushing hard for sex this evening.  I am scared to death!

I'll try to relax and not think about the fact that I have the test levels of a 12 year old girl.

Took a whole ml of Cia, hoping for the best.

She does not know about the cycle, so I have no ready explanation for her on why I went from sex maniac to no interest.


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## malfeasance (Jan 26, 2012)

It went fine.  A little slow to start (I never dreamed I would be the one needing foreplay while she was the one hopping into bed ready to go), but things went fine after that and again about 4 a.m.

Whew!

My balls feel a little tiny bit bigger than three days ago, too . . .  Again, whew!


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## Dath (Jan 26, 2012)

Starting to get to MUCH  info from you bro this isn't the penthouse forums lol 

Seriously though Right on brotha glad it's better


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## malfeasance (Jan 26, 2012)

Dath said:


> Starting to get to MUCH info from you bro this isn't the penthouse forums lol


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## XYZ (Jan 26, 2012)

dath said:


> starting to get to much info from you bro this isn't the penthouse forums lol
> 
> seriously though right on brotha glad it's better


 

lol!


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## malfeasance (Feb 13, 2012)

UPDATE: PCT over last week, and still having some issues, not as bad as before, but definitely not my normal self.  Very slow to start and frankly not all that interested.  She has to really work at it to get me going.


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## malfeasance (Feb 16, 2012)

This morning was great!  Felt like my old self again.  Hopefully this means I am recovering.

Deca and test sure is harder to recover from than just test.


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## K20A2_S (Feb 16, 2012)

I wonder how not running hcg until end of the cycle affected the whole situation.  Happy recovery!!


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## malfeasance (Feb 16, 2012)

K20A2_S said:


> I wonder how not running hcg until end of the cycle affected the whole situation. Happy recovery!!


 Me, too, unavoidable problem.  HCG kept the balls large through the first half or more of the cycle, and they shrank within a week of ceasing.  They are larger now.

I will order more HCG next time, definitely.  I just found that the HCG dosage was half what I needed and therefore ran out twice as quickly once I started.  I had no prior experience with HCG.


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## malfeasance (Feb 16, 2012)

exphysiologist88 said:


> I am surprised you estradiol is that high for having such low test and taking 25 mg of aromasin. I had to drop my aromasin a couple weeks into pct because my estradiol was 7. My aromasin was from chemone.


  Well, I think it shows my aromasin was not bunk (CEM).  Had it been bunk, the number would have been a LOT higher then 24.


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## nby (Feb 16, 2012)

Draw some blood again 1-2 months after PCT is done and see where you're at!


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## exphys88 (Feb 16, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Well, I think it shows my aromasin was not bunk (CEM).  Had it been bunk, the number would have been a LOT higher then 24.



I'm not sure this is true.  My understanding is that most of males estrogen comes from the aromatization of test to estradiol.  If you have very low test levels, it's difficult to get elevated estradiol levels, especially if taking 25 mg/day of aromasin.


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## malfeasance (Feb 16, 2012)

exphysiologist88 said:


> . . .  especially if taking 25 mg/day of aromasin.


   Adding that last part does not make sense if you thought it was bunk!

Anyway, I was just going off of other poster's blood tests, which show low test and high estrogen during PCT.  In fact, I remember another poster who had a very high number, and people here suggested he go to another source.  That is why I concluded that mine was working.


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## malfeasance (Feb 16, 2012)

nby said:


> Draw some blood again 1-2 months after PCT is done and see where you're at!


 Absolutely intend to do so.


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## exphys88 (Feb 16, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Adding that last part does not make sense if you thought it was bunk!



My point is that if you were using legit aromasin, I would think that  taking 25 mg/day with such low test levels would create very low  estradiol levels.  I don't know this is accurate, it just seems logical  and it's the experience I've had.  While only taking 12.5  aromasin during my pct, my  estradiol got down to 7 and I had to drop it altogether.


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## Bottom's Up (Feb 16, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> It went fine.  A little slow to start (I never dreamed I would be the one needing foreplay while she was the one hopping into bed ready to go), but things went fine after that and again about 4 a.m.
> 
> Whew!
> 
> My balls feel a little tiny bit bigger than three days ago, too . . .  Again, whew!





Dath said:


> Starting to get to MUCH  info from you bro this isn't the penthouse forums lol
> 
> Seriously though Right on brotha glad it's better


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## malfeasance (Feb 17, 2012)

exphysiologist88 said:


> My point is that if you were using legit aromasin, I would think that taking 25 mg/day with such low test levels would create very low estradiol levels. I don't know this is accurate, it just seems logical and it's the experience I've had. While only taking 12.5 aromasin during my pct, my estradiol got down to 7 and I had to drop it altogether.


 Unfortunately, I do not know the answer to this either.  I had assumed before you posted that it would shoot up to 70-100 or more during PCT without adequate AI usage.
Maybe heavyiron or somebody else could chime in.
I could swear there was a poster here with a really high estrogen during PCT that came from possibly a bunk AI - recent thread.


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## malfeasance (Feb 17, 2012)

Found it! http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/anabolic-zone/152090-blood-work-says-all-4.html#post2635298 The poster is "acemon," and his post #59 (on page 2) says that his e2 was 254!
That is ten times what mine was.


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## nby (Feb 17, 2012)

Perhaps his unit is pmol\L to which the reference range is <185 for men instead of the <60pg/ml.


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## malfeasance (Feb 17, 2012)

nby said:


> Perhaps his unit is pmol\L to which the reference range is <185 for men instead of the <60pg/ml.


 Maybe - but he was still way over, when I was well within normal.


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## malfeasance (Feb 21, 2012)

For what it is worth, everything down there seems to be functioning normally now, or at least like 90% of normal.


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## exphys88 (Feb 21, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> For what it is worth, everything down there seems to be functioning normally now, or at least like 90% of normal.



That's a good sign.  

I'm not sure why I said an estradiol of 24 was high.   That's actually a perfect e2 for me.


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## malfeasance (Feb 21, 2012)

exphysiologist88 said:


> That's a good sign.
> 
> I'm not sure why I said an estradiol of 24 was high.  That's actually a perfect e2 for me.


 No problems!


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## squigader (Feb 21, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> No problems!



Any recent bloodwork and numbers? Would you say you lost a significant amount of gains in the past few weeks?

Would you say there was a reason recovery took so long this time? How many weeks of extra PCT did you do beyond what you had planned and did it help?


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## malfeasance (Feb 22, 2012)

squigader said:


> Any recent bloodwork and numbers? Would you say you lost a significant amount of gains in the past few weeks?
> 
> Would you say there was a reason recovery took so long this time? How many weeks of extra PCT did you do beyond what you had planned and did it help?


 No bloodwork planned for another month or so.  Lost quite a bit, but I do not know if it is unusual, as  I lost quite a bit after my first cycle, and I had a pretty easy recovery (testosterone and dbol only).  I also managed to come down sick TWICE and missed some time in the gym, so . . .

  As for the reason, I assume it was the Deca and then maybe running out of HCG.  I did not use HCG at all the first time, so maybe it was just the Deca.

  No extra PCT.

Things just kind of normalized a week or so after the PCT ended.


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## freakinhuge (Jul 25, 2012)

malfeasance said:


> Correct.
> 
> 
> *Blood test on day 14 of PCT*. Testosterone, LH, and FSH very, very low, as in off the charts low, and Estradiol in the range of normal, that is, if I had regular testosterone levels. PCT is standard clomid 100/100/75/50 aromasin 25/25/12.5/12.5.
> ...





Why in the world would you waste your time with a blood test when you're not even done the PCT? Even when done, give it a couple weeks before testing it.

PCT is good, but just because you finish one doesn't mean your fully recovered, its just help.
I rec: Finish PCT, wait 2 weeks THEN go for blood work.

You won't know till you are done, you don't judge/change dosing while in pct, you do a pct and if it doesn't work for you, you adjust it the next time.

Good luck!


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## malfeasance (Aug 1, 2012)

freakinhuge said:


> Why in the world would you waste your time with a blood test when you're not even done the PCT?



See posts 9, 10, and 11 on page 1.


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