# How much time is too much time at the gym



## millertime (May 9, 2011)

when i was young i work at a powerhouse gym and all the guys that work there said not to spend more than 90 minutes cus after that it starts to harm muscle grow. with that being said i noticed that most of the guys that are serious about it stay a least 2 hours myself included. with about an hour or so with wieght training and 30-45 minutes with cardio.i think this is a myth 2 hours doesnt seem bad as long as your diet is good. what do you guys think?


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## trapzilla (May 9, 2011)

around the hour mark cortisol starts to be released at higher levels. 

But you need to train however long you need to get the job done. if your diet is good you'll grow, if you supplement your training time you'll be fine


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## Marat (May 9, 2011)

I agree with trapzilla. If your programming is reasonable, your session duration will fall into place.


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## Hated (May 9, 2011)

*How much time is too much time at the gym....*


More than 2 hours.


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## Fit_Qtie (May 9, 2011)

About 1 and 15 min, including 45 cardio..


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## millertime (May 9, 2011)

i coulnt get anything done in a hour 15


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## Fit_Qtie (May 9, 2011)

millertime said:


> i coulnt get anything done in a hour 15


 
My bad, I meant 1:45 min.. Typo        (Don't see an edit button)


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## Gissurjon (May 9, 2011)

I never stay longer than an hour, I am eating no later than 59 mins after my workout starts. when im cutting im in there for about 30 min


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## Gissurjon (May 9, 2011)

millertime said:


> i coulnt get anything done in a hour 15


 
then you are bullshitting  around in the gym or  you are trying to do too much.


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## trapzilla (May 9, 2011)

Gissurjon said:


> then you are bullshitting around in the gym or you are trying to do too much.


 
Or maybe he's doing high volume or a powerlifting style workout or OL style. 

Thats an opinion based on your results and it is laughable to hear you say that because someone can't stick to your time frame.

Please Bro! your telling me Derek Poundstone is "bullshitting around"? pfft get a grip.

I train for a minimum of 2hours and ya know what brah? i don't talk, or rest longer than a minute tops, so am i "bullshitting around"? err nah.

i'd bury you under my speed guaranteed! you'd be flagging after the second exercise!

think before you judge brah!


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## Jingle (May 9, 2011)

I can normally get it done in about an hour. No cardio just straight lifting.


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## Supervette101 (May 9, 2011)

Guess that would also depend on your splits. If your only doing one body part a day I could see getting out of there in 45 min to an hour with 10 min cardio warm up. But who's doing that, most guy are doing at least 2 muscle groups. I will say thought i was doing a full body HIT last year and was out in an hour and fifteen with 10 min warm up.


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## keith1569 (May 9, 2011)

about 45 min is where i am at..normally i dont do any cardio though..


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## Hated (May 9, 2011)

The disregard for cardio is apalling.


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## trapzilla (May 9, 2011)

Cardio is a seperate beast Hated and in my opinion should be done after BCAAs to prevent catabolism. particularly after a long session.


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## keith1569 (May 9, 2011)

If I'm doing cardio I do swimming for 45 minutes and do it on my non workout days. It's a bitch but gets the job done.


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## mlc308 (May 9, 2011)

I would say that you should listen to your body.  I know that I spend more time than most do, but you have got to do what you need to in order to get the job done.


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## malcolm383 (May 9, 2011)

no less than 2 hours for me


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## ahiggs (May 10, 2011)

i usually never stay longer than 90 minutes i just don't have the time for more than that...that being said, when my dad use to lift he would be there for 4 to 6 hours sometimes.  when he was at his strongest he was 5'8" 205lbs with a 675 squat and deadlift for 2


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## zok37 (May 10, 2011)

For me it takes about 1 hour and half  to get the job done. That includes working my abs or calf's and resting about 60 to 90 seconds between sets.


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## Big Pimpin (May 10, 2011)

45 minutes with 60-90 seconds between sets and working out by myself.


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## x~factor (May 10, 2011)

Going solo = less than an hour
1 partner = about an hour
2 partners = just over an hour

No cardio.


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## sassy69 (May 10, 2011)

For ballpark, around an hr for lifting, adjusting for the wt / volume you're doing (e.g. heavy squat day, may need some longer recovery time) or how busy it is in the gym or if you're just being a social butterfly. Then add on whatever you're doing for cardio. Usually 2 hrs is about max for me.


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## BIGBEN2011 (May 10, 2011)

yea i dont see how people can get everthing done in undera hour weights rest abbs cardio and then i tan in the gym and somtimes like to get in the sauna steam room etc.hard for me to do everything i need to do takes about 3 hours some times which is way to long i do have a life but i do want to look good all so it is tuff for me for sure.


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## ihateschoolmt (May 10, 2011)

I don't think tanning and steam room time count lol.


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## The Edge (May 10, 2011)

BIGBEN2011 said:


> yea i dont see how people can get everthing done in undera hour weights rest abbs cardio and then i tan in the gym and somtimes like to get in the sauna steam room etc.hard for me to do everything i need to do takes about 3 hours some times which is way to long i do have a life but i do want to look good all so it is tuff for me for sure.


 

All that just to look good? Wow, sheesh.


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## GMO (May 10, 2011)

I love to lift, and if I had the time I would lift even more.  I usually spend 1.5-2 hours in the gym each morning including a 20 min cardio session PWO, but I incorporate a lot of volume in my routine.  If you are just starting out, you should be able to get the job done in an hour or so.


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## Gissurjon (May 10, 2011)

trapzilla said:


> Or maybe he's doing high volume or a powerlifting style workout or OL style.
> 
> Thats an opinion based on your results and it is laughable to hear you say that because someone can't stick to your time frame.
> 
> ...


 


millertime said:


> i coulnt get anything done in a hour 15


 
He couldn't get ANYTHING done in an hour and 15 min.

tune down the roid rage and focus when you read 

by the way, Derek Poundstone is juiced to the max, but you already know that don't you


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## ponyboy (May 10, 2011)

Who has time to work out for two hours?  

Say you are even doing high volume - so let's say 24 sets total:  

24 sets at max of 4s/rep x 10 reps (average) = 16 minutes.  
Rest between sets 60-120 s = 24-48 minutes, and two minutes is a REALLY long time for rest between sets if you are doing high volume.  

So it's realistic to say 45 mins lifting and then if you tack on 30 mins of cardio and get changed it would take 90 minutes.

Most people I see at the gym for two hours are the ones sitting around between sets chatting, on their phones taking 5 minute rest breaks or wandering around looking for a hot girl to lift beside.  What a waste of time.


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## trapzilla (May 10, 2011)

Gissurjon said:


> He couldn't get ANYTHING done in an hour and 15 min.
> 
> tune down the roid rage and focus when you read
> 
> by the way, Derek Poundstone is juiced to the max, but you already know that don't you


 
A. Anything was obviously a figure of speach, if you can't pick up on that maybe you should go back to school.

B. Oh, yeah a mature response i'd still be pissed with you if i weren't on the HP

C. Of Course I knew that no fucker goes form the low 200's to the low 300's in high school naturally. But the point was of little consequence to steroid usage the fact is that he doesn't bull shit around he trains to shit and then rests and goes again.



ponyboy said:


> Who has time to work out for two hours?
> 
> Say you are even doing high volume - so let's say 24 sets total:
> 
> ...


 
1. Who has time to work out for 2 hours? this guy right here thats who and GMO, the people who make time for it.

2. are you kidding me? 24 sets is not high volume you should drop by my log sometime. i'm talking 24 sets per large bodypart when i'm not doing Dorian training hence my workout times have dropped to just over an 1hr15. usually totaling close to 40 for the whole workout.

3. all thats very well and good but your forgetting unloading times after each exercise and replacing dumbbells, you know how long it takes to strip over 1000lbs off a leg press and put them on a tree? i'm guessing not mr triathlete. or how long it takes to strip a bar of 700lbs? i'm guessing not on that too. Your probably one of the dicks who doesn't even replace shit or just uses machine. 

4. Then clearly you've never met me in the gym.

Anyone else wanna come at me?


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## Klutch (May 11, 2011)

When I'm healthy training for a fight I'm training 2-3 hrs in am and 2-3 hrs in pm 4 days a week and 2-3 hrs am the other 2 days a week.. Taking Sunday's off soaking in beach water for recovery... And taking a ice baths everyday also...


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## ponyboy (May 11, 2011)

trapzilla said:


> 1. Who has time to work out for 2 hours? this guy right here thats who and GMO, the people who make time for it.
> 
> 2. are you kidding me? 24 sets is not high volume you should drop by my log sometime. i'm talking 24 sets per large bodypart when i'm not doing Dorian training hence my workout times have dropped to just over an 1hr15. usually totaling close to 40 for the whole workout.
> 
> ...



Sorry Mr. Hardcore.  I've worked in gyms for most of my adult life and obviously you're different than the other meatheads.


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## Darkcity (May 11, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> Sorry Mr. Hardcore.  I've worked in gyms for most of my adult life and obviously you're different than the other meatheads.



 dude so bad ass he has to use wrist straps in his pick f__ bro please you really need em for that?


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## trapzilla (May 11, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> Sorry Mr. Hardcore. I've worked in gyms for most of my adult life and obviously you're different than the other meatheads.


 
Clearly I am. 



Darkcity said:


> dude so bad ass he has to use wrist straps in his pick f__ bro please you really need em for that?


 
yeah if you'd done digging instead of trying to be a smartass you'd see that picture (please note correct spelling) was from when I was 18.

Never said I was bad ass bro, just pointing out the fact no-one on here has the privelege to say what is too long to train to anyone, we can only go off our own experiences.


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## Radical (May 11, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> Most people I see at the gym for two hours are the ones sitting around between sets chatting, on their phones taking 5 minute rest breaks or wandering around looking for a hot girl to lift beside. What a waste of time.


 
Its also a waste of time to run surveilance on them.


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## Radical (May 11, 2011)

trapzilla said:


> Anyone else wanna come at me?


 
For what exactly? Are you the ultimate authority on all things training?


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## trapzilla (May 11, 2011)

Radical said:


> For what exactly? Are you the ultimate authority on all things training?


 
No but on MY training time and style I am. Which is what the comment was referring to, albeit tenuosly.


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## ihateschoolmt (May 11, 2011)

Darkcity said:


> dude so bad ass he has to use wrist straps in his pick f__ bro please you really need em for that?


Are you serious? That was a 220k (484 pounds) deadlift at 18 years old, maybe he needed straps but you would need a fork lift.


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## TJTJ (May 11, 2011)

everyday is different for me. Depending on the intensity and if cardio is included. IMO 10min warm up, 45mins-1hr pumping iron then 10 min cool down(sometimes 2-3x a week 20min ending cardio) So no more than 1.5hr for myself. 

I dont want to get too technical but depending on how much calories you ate before your WO then once your burn that off, next is the sugar in your blood/muscles then your back up reserve in your liver of something like 400calories, I think. IDK Please correct me because I need to refresh my text book but once all your energies are burned off thats when catabolism starts and youve gone overboard.


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## N_I_C_K (May 11, 2011)

I think there are too many variables to give a certain amount of time.


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## MegaTron (May 11, 2011)

60-75min


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## trapzilla (May 11, 2011)

TJTJ said:


> everyday is different for me. Depending on the intensity and if cardio is included. IMO 10min warm up, 45mins-1hr pumping iron then 10 min cool down(sometimes 2-3x a week 20min ending cardio) So no more than 1.5hr for myself.
> 
> I dont want to get too technical but depending on how much calories you ate before your WO then once your burn that off, next is the sugar in your blood/muscles then your back up reserve in your liver of something like 400calories, I think. IDK Please correct me because I need to refresh my text book but once all your energies are burned off thats when catabolism starts and youve gone overboard.


 

I think your pretty much on the money although its more the glycogen(muscle sugar) first then the digested form i believe but maybe Marat or Juggernaught will put us straight . finally it is liver stored glycogen??

but your right as far as that is catabolic also the oxygen debt causes cortisol release. There are hormonal factors that kick in around the 45-60 minute mark.

But i feel if you drink a fast digesting carbohydrate drink intraworkout then you can stave off catabolism indefinately


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## TJTJ (May 11, 2011)

trapzilla said:


> I think your pretty much on the money although its more the glycogen(muscle sugar)...*finally it is liver stored glycogen??*
> 
> but your right as far as that is catabolic also the oxygen debt causescortisol release. There are hormonal factors that kick in around the 45-60 minutemark
> 
> ...


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## TJTJ (May 11, 2011)

trapzilla said:


> But i feel if you drink a fast digesting carbohydrate drink intraworkout then you can stave off catabolism indefinately



What would be a good product ?


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## trapzilla (May 11, 2011)

TJTJ said:


> What would be a good product ?


 
I like Multipower energy charge due to the high carb content 14g/100ml and the blend of digestion times-it does me well for my long leg days.
But I also like a home blend i used to use of 10g leucine 5g isoleucine 5g valine, 5 g glutamine, 5 g CEE , 5 g l-carntine , between 5 and 8g beta alanine and about 50g waxymaize starch mixed with the energy charge, used to use fanta but that denatures the CEE i believe. that used to see me through all my workouts.


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## Livebig14 (May 11, 2011)

Depends if you natural or not


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## GMO (May 11, 2011)

Livebig14 said:


> Depends if you natural or not




^^^Exactly...and I'm not.

@ponyboy:I'd love to have you come train with me one AM at 5:30 and see exactly how much time I spend sitting around or talking.  I played Div1 ball in college, long workouts are a norm for me.  Just b/c you don't understand elite training, don't flame somebody's workout duration.


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## Livebig14 (May 11, 2011)

GMO said:


> ^^^Exactly...and I'm not.
> 
> @ponyboy:I'd love to have you come train with me one AM at 5:30 and see exactly how much time I spend sitting around or talking.  I played Div1 ball in college, long workouts are a norm for me.  Just b/c you don't understand elite training, don't flame somebody's workout duration.


bump ^  Natural training and training while on AAS are different.  Either way you have to bust your ass to grow, but you can only do so much when your natural before it becomes counter effective


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## ponyboy (May 11, 2011)

GMO said:


> ^^^Exactly...and I'm not.
> 
> @ponyboy:I'd love to have you come train with me one AM at 5:30 and see exactly how much time I spend sitting around or talking.  I played Div1 ball in college, long workouts are a norm for me.  Just b/c you don't understand elite training, don't flame somebody's workout duration.



Brother, I start with clients at 5am so I'm already at work when you're working out.  Elite athletes are a different breed and require different workout times.  How many of those people are in a conventional gym?  About one in a thousand.  

I wasn't applying my statement to everyone - just the usual people who spend WAY too much time doing crap they shouldn't be at the gym.  Like I tell my clients, it's quality - not quantity - that gets you results.


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## natural1 (May 12, 2011)

Livebig14 said:


> bump ^ Natural training and training while on AAS are different. Either way you have to bust your ass to grow, but you can only do so much when your natural before it becomes counter effective


 

This^

Im natty and tend to train for 45 mins to hour 15.  Any more and i dont feel like my body training optimum capacity so it may aswell be recovering. 

For people on roids then its a different story


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## GMO (May 12, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> Brother, I start with clients at 5am so I'm already at work when you're working out. Elite athletes are a different breed and require different workout times. How many of those people are in a conventional gym? About one in a thousand.
> 
> I wasn't applying my statement to everyone - just the usual people who spend WAY too much time doing crap they shouldn't be at the gym. Like I tell my clients, it's quality - not quantity - that gets you results.


 

Very true...


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## trapzilla (May 12, 2011)

Gear or no Gear I'd still train for 2 hours. I'd just have to rest longer with a slightly lower training volume. Too many people use the "yeah but i'm natural card" to explain insufficient training with insufficient intesnity and volume hence they get less than satisfactory growth.

As I have said on here many times I have trained with numerous 100% natural lifters both young and old, new to training and vets and everyone of them grows like a weed with me.

too many natural people short change themselves. I hit a 185kg deadlift at 17-natural training this way


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## ponyboy (May 12, 2011)

trapzilla said:


> Gear or no Gear I'd still train for 2 hours. I'd just have to rest longer with a slightly lower training volume. Too many people use the "yeah but i'm natural card" to explain insufficient training with insufficient intesnity and volume hence they get less than satisfactory growth.
> 
> As I have said on here many times I have trained with numerous 100% natural lifters both young and old, new to training and vets and everyone of them grows like a weed with me.
> 
> too many natural people short change themselves. I hit a 185kg deadlift at 17-natural training this way



I prefer the "I'm lazy" card.


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## natural1 (May 12, 2011)

on the other hand i have done the training for two hours  when i didnt not no better.  Im seeing far better results since structering my workouts around the times i mentioned.  

In my eyes its not lazy just sensible.  Theres not a time i come out of that gym not blowing out of my arse and worn out after an intense workout


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## juggernaut (May 12, 2011)

trapzilla said:


> around the hour mark cortisol starts to be released at higher levels.
> 
> But you need to train however long you need to get the job done. if your diet is good you'll grow, if you supplement your training time you'll be fine



Exactly.


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## dteller1 (May 12, 2011)

trapzilla said:


> Or maybe he's doing high volume or a powerlifting style workout or OL style.
> 
> Thats an opinion based on your results and it is laughable to hear you say that because someone can't stick to your time frame.
> 
> ...



but.....if your assisted i can fully understand why you can go for 2 hours, i dont know that you are if your not then fair enough, but you always seem to state you do very very high volume which is great if it works for you, but if your assisted different rules apply.

EDIT: wish id read the whole thread before saying anything, looks like this has been covered....


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## trapzilla (May 12, 2011)

dteller1 said:


> but.....if your assisted i can fully understand why you can go for 2 hours, i dont know that you are if your not then fair enough, but you always seem to state you do very very high volume which is great if it works for you, but if your assisted different rules apply.
> 
> EDIT: wish id read the whole thread before saying anything, looks like this has been covered....


 
I also always point out that whilst it works for me it also works for all the natural guys who train with me. It is not coincidence that about 8 guys all completely unrelated, different frames, diets, age and genetics all grow off the same routine? also the biggest guys I know natural or otherwise train high volume, infact one old time juicer does the lowest volume out of anyone at the gym 3 exercises for chest 2 for bis, off home. 

I Have never and I repeat never seen a big dude perform the routines that are often suggested on this site, introduce me to one and i'll shut up about my training style for good but until that point i'm still gonna beat my friggin drum.

If anyone wants to PM for a more personal breakdown of how and why i train then i'll happy to do so hell i'll even draw up a routine for you to try!


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## juggernaut (May 13, 2011)

I cant train for long periods of time simply because I'm ADD, I have a gym to run and clients to train, plus I enjoy having a life after working 12-13 hour days. but I'm also curious as to the scientific standpoint of doing higher volume. Would it truly be beneficial under a scrutinized microscope versus heavy compound work wisely designed?


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## TJTJ (May 13, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> I cant train for long periods of time simply because I'm ADD, I have a gym to run and clients to train, plus I enjoy having a life after working 12-13 hour days. but I'm also curious as to the scientific standpoint of doing higher volume. Would it truly be beneficial under a scrutinized microscope versus heavy compound work wisely designed?



I second that. But would like to include the duration applied to each.


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## jack1970 (May 13, 2011)

I cant last much more than an hour at the gym. More than that will still be beneficial, but I think you eventually reach a point of diminishing returns after much more than this.


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## trapzilla (May 13, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> I cant train for long periods of time simply because I'm ADD, I have a gym to run and clients to train, plus I enjoy having a life after working 12-13 hour days. but I'm also curious as to the scientific standpoint of doing higher volume. Would it truly be beneficial under a scrutinized microscope versus heavy compound work wisely designed?


 
Why can't high volume be equally if not better designed than a heavy compound session?


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## Built (May 13, 2011)

Trapzilla, humour me please with a few more details about you and your training. You're clearly getting results and I'm not about to shoot you down - I'm just trying to wrap my head around where you're coming from. Here goes.

How old are you? 
How old are your natural buddies who train this way? 
Are you eating to gain, cutting, or at maintenance? 
How long have you been training this way?


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## trapzilla (May 13, 2011)

Built said:


> Trapzilla, humour me please with a few more details about you and your training. You're clearly getting results and I'm not about to shoot you down - I'm just trying to wrap my head around where you're coming from. Here goes.
> 
> How old are you?
> How old are your natural buddies who train this way?
> ...


 
Sure thing Bulit
I'm 20
lets see, erm 15-18 year olds, 40 year olds, 30 year olds, and some other mid 20's
eating to gain at the moment but have trained my way whilst cutting
training this way for a little over 2 years


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## Built (May 13, 2011)

How much weight have you gained in this time?

The others, I actually don't want generalities. I'm 48 and female, and I've been at this since I was 38 - I only started training then and I can assure you, the one time I tried training this way I got very, very overtrained - and fast. I became so injured I had to take a break before resuming my lower-volume work. Younger people, especially young men - can often get away with more training volume while eating to gain, for a while anyway.  Cutting is a different matter. Initially, you will find this is not a problem; however, I urge you to reconsider your strategy as you actually become lean. You'll see why if you choose not to heed this warning. 

I want to know details about specific other individuals, not broad sweeping generalizations. Pick a few, and discuss how much weight they gained and over how long of a period, and of course how they look.


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## trapzilla (May 13, 2011)

Built said:


> How much weight have you gained in this time?
> 
> The others, I actually don't want generalities. I'm 48 and female, and I've been at this since I was 38 - I only started training then and I can assure you, the one time I tried training this way I got very, very overtrained - and fast. I became so injured I had to take a break before resuming my lower-volume work. Younger people, especially young men - can often get away with more training volume while eating to gain, for a while anyway. Cutting is a different matter. Initially, you will find this is not a problem; however, I urge you to reconsider your strategy as you actually become lean. You'll see why if you choose not to heed this warning.
> 
> I want to know details about specific other individuals, not broad sweeping generalizations. Pick a few, and discuss how much weight they gained and over how long of a period, and of course how they look.


 
Ok built sorry, was in abit of a rush

one guy-19 6 foot 1, starting weight when began to train with me 65kg-and 17% bodyfat current stats after close to a year and a half 84kg bodyweight 9% bodyfat-he refuses to do legs with me, very wide back and wide shoulders due to training not bone structure very narrow clavicles-cutting diet followed for the most part. strengh increase on bench from 50kg to 110kg for 1rm
2nd guy 32 6 foot 3, narrow clavicles again starting weight 12 stone small overall mass in 3 months 14 stone 3 lean bulking diet, very dense chest and delts with a very strong back,t-bar rows up from 3 plates to 6 for reps
3 rd guy 40, 5 foot 7, narrow clavicles yet very deep sternum around 13.5 stone starting weight after 4 months weight gain to 14.7 stone whilst recomping added mass to arms and back whislt reaching new tricep and quad striations
4 th guy 16 starting weight 72 kg, very wide clavicles and hips, slightly over weight, first 7 months bulked up to 90kg much greater leg size and back development, whilst dropping a few points bodyfat. then last 2 months cutting strength increased still, size increased further bodyfat dropping steadily.

can only be that precise on those i'm afraid

in this time i've gone from 25% bf at 5foot 9 and 85 kg to 13% bf at 5 foot 10 ish and 108.3 kg


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## ihateschoolmt (May 13, 2011)

Damn you were 25% body fat? I thought you started off skinny.


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## trapzilla (May 13, 2011)

Nope i started off a fatty, who was short and not overly heavy!


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## Built (May 13, 2011)

trapzilla said:


> Ok built sorry, was in abit of a rush
> 
> one guy-19 6 foot 1, starting weight when began to train with me 65kg-and 17% bodyfat current stats after close to a year and a half 84kg bodyweight 9% bodyfat-he refuses to do legs with me, very wide back and wide shoulders due to training not bone structure very narrow clavicles-cutting diet followed for the most part. strengh increase on bench from 50kg to 110kg for 1rm


He gained 19kg in a year. He was a skinny, novice, 19 year old male on a pretty aggressive bulk, eating at a clear and definite surplus and he was most obviously under-trained to start. Anything he did would have worked, as long as he continued with this - you say cutting diet? You appear to be unclear on the concept of cutting. He gained weight, therefore this was a bulk. 

Next:


trapzilla said:


> 2nd guy 32 6 foot 3, narrow clavicles again starting weight 12 stone small overall mass in 3 months 14 stone 3 lean bulking diet, very dense chest and delts with a very strong back,t-bar rows up from 3 plates to 6 for reps


Another novice who bulked for 3 months and gained 28 lbs in three months - again, a very pronounced surplus (lean bulk means nothing in this context btw - he ran a pronounced surplus and he was clearly underdeveloped to begin with at 6'3" and only 168 lbs to start holy FUCK he was thin! He must have been eating everything in sight - and he needs to keep going. He's only 196 lbs NOW!!!

Next:


trapzilla said:


> 3 rd guy 40, 5 foot 7, narrow clavicles yet very deep sternum around 13.5 stone starting weight after 4 months weight gain to 14.7 stone whilst recomping added mass to arms and back whislt reaching new tricep and quad striations


And... another bulker! This guy has been at this for four months. At 5'7" and 190 lbs he could stand to lose some weight, not gain. I highly doubt he's recomped much if he's gained 17 lbs since then. My money says buddy's a strong, fat guy who needs to lose some weight. He will have to change his strategy when he does this. 

Next:



trapzilla said:


> 4 th guy 16 starting weight 72 kg, very wide clavicles and hips, slightly over weight, first 7 months bulked up to 90kg much greater leg size and back development, whilst dropping a few points bodyfat. then last 2 months cutting strength increased still, size increased further bodyfat dropping steadily.
> 
> can only be that precise on those i'm afraid


How tall is this guy? He was only 158 lbs to start. At 198 lbs, he's now overweight? He gained too fast. 

Regardless, he's sixteen. Virtually anything works on a sixteen-year-old, untrained male. And again, he bulked. He's only just started cutting. Let's see how that goes. 


trapzilla said:


> in this time i've gone from 25% bf at 5foot 9 and 85 kg to 13% bf at 5 foot 10 ish and 108.3 kg



So you started out 5'9" and 188 lbs, with 141 lbs lean mass. 
You are now 238 lbs, 13% bodyfat with 208 lbs lean mass? At 5'10". Really. Damn. I want whatever you're on. Seriously. How was your bodyfat determined? 

Listen - so far, you've described very predictable results with a bunch of novice male lifters who were eating bulking diets, evidenced by the fact that they ALL GAINED WEIGHT. 

You have done well - however, you are nowhere near lean yet; and I'd love to see pix of you now. 208 lbs of lean mass at 5'10" tall is one impressive physique!


----------



## ihateschoolmt (May 13, 2011)

Built said:


> Trapzilla, humour me please with a few more details about you and your training. You're clearly getting results and I'm not about to shoot you down - I'm just trying to wrap my head around where you're coming from. Here goes.


I think it is worth mentioning he pyramids his volume. He starts off low and adds a few exercises/sets each week until he almost over trains and then takes a week off and starts back at low. At least that's what I got from a talk we had in PM. This is very different to me than just hitting 40 sets every other day for 12 weeks.


----------



## trapzilla (May 13, 2011)

Built said:


> He gained 19kg in a year. He was a skinny, novice, 19 year old male on a pretty aggressive bulk, eating at a clear and definite surplus and he was most obviously under-trained to start. Anything he did would have worked, as long as he continued with this - you say cutting diet? You appear to be unclear on the concept of cutting. He gained weight, therefore this was a bulk.  i'm not unclear of a cutting diet at all i know a cutting diet when i see one, and he was cycling between CKD and a maintenace carb cycle as worked out accoriding to a T-nutrition article by Christian Thibeidau. if someone grows into a show in bodybuilding are they bulking no! they are cutting
> 
> Next:
> 
> ...


  The pics won't happen because i'm not happy with my physique by a long shot. I wanna be 300lbs @ sub 5% bf on stage and until that time i've set down a mantra of no pics.

I appreciate the compliment though all the same. 

I hope i'm not coming off as defensive, i'm just trying to fully explain in places, and i understand that my training so far is not set tested across all mediums and i would not suggest it for women even those chemically enhanced!


----------



## Built (May 13, 2011)

You most certainly do not understand what a cutting diet is. A cutting diet means you lose weight. Bulking means you gain weight. 

Your skinny novice finally started eating, or he wouldn't have gained weight. You may not have clued into this, but weight gain is a product of diet, not training. This style of training may have made him hungrier, so he finally gained some weight. He's still skinny as fuck; he'll continue to grow well until he fills in some more; case in point: ihateschool. 

A sixteen year old will grow on ANY training program *if he eats*, my friend. Again, there isn't a training plan in the world that will pack mass on ANYONE. Nobody gets big from the lifting. They get big from the eating. The lifting just tells the food where to go. 

Thyroid failure means he would gain weight, not lose it. Maybe you mean he went hyperthyroid and had to have it killed? He'd go on thyroxine after that, for sure. I'm on thyroid replacement meds, myself. Back to your friend:  the gear use changes all the rules - if he lost mass, he'll regain it quickly no matter what. Regained muscle and new muscle are very different beasties. 

Listen, all your examples have been men who were eating at a surplus. They all grew because they ate more calories than they required. Those extra calories mitigated the possibility of overtraining. There's a famous line variously attributed to anybody famous that goes something like "there's no such thing as overtraining - just undereating." 

I guarantee you, they could have done at least as well with less volume and smarter training, but this is working; a lot of things work. Not everything works optimally, and cutting is a very different process than bulking. 

I can tell you, I don't drop my calories below maintenance when I'm very active recreationally. When I'm focused on leaning out, my training slows to a crawl. Very short workouts - toward the end this became a push, a pull and legs - 3x5-8 each, followed by a 20 minute walk, 3 times a week, with some walking on off-days and maybe a few 5-8 minute bursts of sprints in there somewhere. That's it. 

When you've successfully dieted down, naturally, to where your abs look like how mine did when I successfully dieted down naturally, we'll talk some more about high-volume training while cutting. (If you go on gear, ignore that last statement - the rules change on gear) 

In the meantime, if you enjoy this type of training and you're making gains you like, keep doing it. Just be aware that it may not be optimal for everyone, and that it might not be optimal for you after a while - as your conditioning base and strength improve you'll get more trashed from less volume simply because you'll be lifting heavier weights. Happens to everyone. As you become leaner, and even as you age, the rules change. I urge you to pay attention to those variables. While I often think some folks don't train with quite enough volume, I see the converse often as well.


----------



## ponyboy (May 13, 2011)

trapzilla said:


> The pics won't happen because i'm not happy with my physique by a long shot. I wanna be 300lbs @ sub 5% bf on stage and until that time i've set down a mantra of no pics.
> 
> I appreciate the compliment though all the same.
> 
> I hope i'm not coming off as defensive, i'm just trying to fully explain in places, and i understand that my training so far is not set tested across all mediums and i would not suggest it for women even those chemically enhanced!



No offense bro, but if your seriously want to be 285 lbs of lean mass you're crazy.  Jay Cutler competes at about 270.  Have you been cycling for the past two years?  

I'm only saying that because I've worked with guys who have been on cycle for 6-8 years and they have craploads of health problems, never mind barely being able to move properly without pain.  Most of the time I'm giving them a workaround so that they can lift without further destroying their backs, knees and shoulders.  

If you are 238 right now and 13% why not compete at light heavy and blow everyone off of the stage?


----------



## trapzilla (May 14, 2011)

Built said:


> You most certainly do not understand what a cutting diet is. A cutting diet means you lose weight. Bulking means you gain weight. B.s. I know a god damn cut stop beating that drum! i've gotten down to a four pack abs-cutting and as far as i'm concerned a cutting diet is a caloric deficit which i  use as about 500 cals below maintenace, which works for me.
> 
> Your skinny novice finally started eating, or he wouldn't have gained weight. You may not have clued into this, but weight gain is a product of diet, not training. This style of training may have made him hungrier, so he finally gained some weight. He's still skinny as fuck; he'll continue to grow well until he fills in some more; case in point: ihateschool. not arguing that it wasn't beginner gains, but how do you explain the fact that he is now on the same diet % wise as he was training with me and he's shrunk in the 4 weeks i've stopped training with him?
> 
> ...


 


ponyboy said:


> No offense bro, but if your seriously want to be 285 lbs of lean mass you're crazy. Jay Cutler competes at about 270. Have you been cycling for the past two years? well the first year was only orals really, but technically yes. and I do, ronnie stepped on stage at 290 ish and quincy taylor competed near or slightly over 300lbs
> 
> I'm only saying that because I've worked with guys who have been on cycle for 6-8 years and they have craploads of health problems, never mind barely being able to move properly without pain. Most of the time I'm giving them a workaround so that they can lift without further destroying their backs, knees and shoulders. i understand the health risks i'm undertaking i assure you of that but it something ijust have to do, there is a bit of pyschology behind it , that i'm not prepared to talk about in open forum.
> 
> If you are 238 right now and 13% why not compete at light heavy and blow everyone off of the stage?because that is not what i want to do, i want to compete at 300lbs and if i never get there the so be it.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Built (May 14, 2011)

You're running gear. Train any way you want - if you eat at a surplus, you'll grow. If you eat at a deficit, you'll lean out. I hope you're not still just running the orals; at twenty you don't really need anything but at least take care of yourself. 

If you think I have a hate on for men, you really don't know me - my point was that men have at least 10-20 times the testosterone of women; there's a lot more to protect your lean mass than we have. Older men don't have as much testosterone as younger men; the rules change for them too - again, unless they're on gear. 

I'm a fan of not fixing non-broken things. You like how you train, and your convenience sample of people who were either young novices or older recovering athletes over a short period of time demonstrated gains. 

This gave me pause, however: "so if the lifting is inefficient the food will not be properly utilised and hence they will not grow, ergo the training is the direct growth medium." 
- Do you mean to say that a skinny sixteen year old could eat at a surplus and not grow unless he lifts?

Also this one: "B.s. I know a god damn cut stop beating that drum! i've gotten down to a four pack abs-cutting and as far as i'm concerned a cutting diet is a caloric deficit which i use as about 500 cals below maintenace, which works for me. " 
- You suggested your friend gained weight on a cutting diet. Do you also gain weight on a cutting diet?


----------



## trapzilla (May 14, 2011)

Built said:


> You're running gear. Train any way you want - if you eat at a surplus, you'll grow. If you eat at a deficit, you'll lean out. I hope you're not still just running the orals; at twenty you don't really need anything but at least take care of yourself.
> 
> If you think I have a hate on for men, you really don't know me - my point was that men have at least 10-20 times the testosterone of women; there's a lot more to protect your lean mass than we have. Older men don't have as much testosterone as younger men; the rules change for them too - again, unless they're on gear.
> 
> ...


 
A. I mean a skinny sixteen year old will not grow-in terms of muscle mass unless he eats and trains, without the muscle stimulus he will grow in fat terms however.

B. No but I am not the same as my friend in any way, shape of form, but following a cutting diet he indeed gained muscle and lost fat and gained weight yes


----------



## stepaukas (May 14, 2011)

hahaha.  a very dumb question.


----------



## Built (May 14, 2011)

trapzilla said:


> A. I mean a skinny sixteen year old will not grow-in terms of muscle mass unless he eats and trains, without the muscle stimulus he will grow in fat terms however.
> 
> B. No but I am not the same as my friend in any way, shape of form, but following a cutting diet he indeed gained muscle and lost fat and gained weight yes



A. Thanks for the clarification. Surprisingly, you're actually wrong - even sedentary people gain muscle when they gain weight; you need extra muscle to move the extra body. But lifting definitely enhances partitioning - and I'm just splitting hairs. 

B. If he gained weight, he wasn't on a cutting diet. 

Cutting means losing weight, with an aim toward losing most of it from fat. You do this by eating less food than your body requires (the weight-loss) and convincing muscle to stick around (heavy lifting, anabolics, plenty of protein) rather than splitting (which happens when you try to do too much activity while cutting, if you run too deep a deficit, and/or eat too little protein). 
Bulking means gaining weight, with an aim toward gaining most of it as muscle. You do this by eating more food than your body requires, and then directing calorie-traffic toward muscle-growth (heavy lifting, anabolics, plenty of protein)
The only way to gain weight is to eat more food than your body requires to maintain. Your buddy gained weight. He got leaner, which is awesome, but he gained weight. This means he ate at higher-than maintenance. It's just math.


----------



## Anabolic5150 (May 14, 2011)

The "Universal Law of Thermodynamics".

One of the first things I learned when I decided I wanted to be a bodybuilder.


----------



## Built (May 14, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> The "Universal Law of Thermodynamics".
> 
> One of the first things I learned when I decided I wanted to be a bodybuilder.



Between gravity and conservation of mass/energy, Newton is every bodybuilder's very best friend.


----------



## Anabolic5150 (May 14, 2011)

Built said:


> Between gravity and conservation of mass/energy, Newton is every bodybuilder's very best friend.



I thought it was chicken and rice! LOL


----------



## trapzilla (May 14, 2011)

Built said:


> .
> 
> 
> B. If he gained weight, he wasn't on a cutting diet.
> ...


 
i'm still not entirely convinced on your verdict that he was bulking, but as he is only a friend and not a client or what have you I can only go off what he gave me as his macros and what articles he used to construct said diet. so there is a possibility he was following a cutting diet i.e. CKD whilst on an above maintenance level of calories. he used this article T NATION | Carb Cycling Codex to construct the carb cycling proportion of  his diet, after re-looking over it calories seem higher than i'd expect well certainly carbs do which may attest to the weight gain.


----------



## Built (May 14, 2011)

There is exactly one way to gain weight: eat more calories than you burn. If you gain weight, by definition you are eating more calories than you require - thus, you are not cutting. 

What part of this is so hard for you to grasp - do you think it's the carbs that make you gain weight or something? Or that it's the relative proportions of protein, carb and fat that make the difference between bulking and cutting? I'm not getting through - I wonder if this is why?


----------



## trapzilla (May 14, 2011)

Built said:


> There is exactly one way to gain weight: eat more calories than you burn. If you gain weight, by definition you are eating more calories than you require - thus, you are not cutting.
> 
> What part of this is so hard for you to grasp - do you think it's the carbs that make you gain weight or something? Or that it's the relative proportions of protein, carb and fat that make the difference between bulking and cutting? I'm not getting through - I wonder if this is why?


 

Your starting to piss me off with your holier than thou attitude Built. 

I know bulking and cutting, I know that what my friend showed to me was lauded as a cutting and ticked those boxes, he then happened to gain weight, now wether that was due to him either A.underreating by even more prior or through him not sticking to his diet we'll never really know, hell he could have even gone on steroids! All i've said from the beginning was he was following a cutting diet.

when you've pointed out your credentials to me as to what gives you the right to talk down so much to someone you've never met, then i'll listen more. K ?

at the moment i'm seeing a woman who is ripped and so seems to think that makes her the goddess of diet!

with regards to your statement about what i interpret the requirements of cut to be are the following are effective in my experience; carb cycling keeping fats constant, CKD or higher carbs very low fats, these in my experience are effective enough for my desired results.


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## Built (May 14, 2011)

I'm neither holier than thou, nor ripped. I'm bulking at the moment. 

Calories determine weight loss or gain. That's it. Sorry to burst your bubble.


----------



## trapzilla (May 14, 2011)

Built said:


> I'm neither holier than thou, nor ripped. I'm bulking at the moment.
> 
> Calories determine weight loss or gain. That's it. Sorry to burst your bubble.


 
what part of what you have just said is not dripping with a great sense of rightousness? 

I have not once argued contrary to what you are saying. I am aware that in a incredibly simplified perspective bulking = calories in < calories out and cutting the opposite, in fact state this in most of my posts. yet each time you choose to omit these statements from your response.

I have only been saying what he told me which the above post says, but I give up i cannot be bothered arguing with a keyboard warrior on a crusade.


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## Built (May 14, 2011)

You keep changing your story bud - you said your friend gained weight on a cutting diet, but insisted it was indeed a cutting diet because it was a carb cycle.  It's not my fault if you can't do math.


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## trapzilla (May 14, 2011)

Built said:


> You keep changing your story bud - you said your friend gained weight on a cutting diet, but insisted it was indeed a cutting diet because it was a carb cycle. It's not my fault if you can't do math.


 
I swear I am on the verge of sparking you out! 
FOR FUCK SAKE READ THE WHOLE FUCKING RESPONSES!
I listed 3 variables that may account for the weight gain and said that as i was not monitoring his intake i cannpt verify whether he was or was not cutting, only that he said he was!
fucking hell! and you think i'm stupid? fucking braud


----------



## Built (May 14, 2011)

trapzilla said:


> I swear I am on the verge of sparking you out!
> FOR FUCK SAKE READ THE WHOLE FUCKING RESPONSES!
> I listed 3 variables that may account for the weight gain and said that as i was not monitoring his intake i cannpt verify whether he was or was not cutting, only that he said he was!
> fucking hell! and you think i'm stupid? fucking braud


I now officially think you are stupid, yes. 

You're also very angry. It's an amusing combination to read.


He gained weight. Therefore we are all 100% he wasn't on a cutting diet. Okay, except you - you're still trying to wrap your head around this concept.


----------



## trapzilla (May 14, 2011)

Built said:


> I now officially think you are stupid, yes.
> 
> You're also very angry. It's an amusing combination to read.
> 
> ...


 
Actually Built, i'm a very calm easy going person, but you just keep smacking your fucking skull against all my buttons don't you?

I'm not denying he gained weight or that the end results of his diet was bulking! I am merely pointing out the fact he attested that he was on a cutting diet!

jesus no wonder we ruled over you yanks for sooo fucking long you didn't see the whole picture! (i apologise to all other american members of this board)


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## Built (May 14, 2011)

I'm not American. 

You do not know what a cutting diet is.


----------



## TGB1987 (May 14, 2011)

Please refrain from insulting built for trying to help you.  Sometimes it is hard to accept when you are wrong about something I know believe me but it does happen especially in this sport/lifestyle.  There is so much information to take in that it is nearly impossible to know everything about everything.  Unfortunately for you this is Built's specialty.  She is absolutely phenomenal with diet and nutrition.  She has helped me with my diet more than two different endos and two PCPs could regarding an issue I had with reactive Hypoglycemia.  We actually discussed my diet on the phone for a couple of hours on a weekend.  This is her passion and you can tell by how knowledgable she is.  She really means well and wants to help.  In this thread she has given you nothing but great information.  She is right overtraining will prevent you from getting the most out of your workouts.  I wish I would of learned this when I first began training.  I overtrained  and worked harder than I had to to get where I wanted and all it did for me was burn me out after a couple years and make my joints ache everyday.  My shoulders are not doing to good and what is bad is I am not that old even though I have been training for around 12 years.  I decided to change my training up when I started to lose interest in my training routine and ache all the time.  What a difference.  The older I get the more I learn what my body is saying and the more it responds.  Built is actually saving you a hard earned lesson.  Just because she is a female doesn't mean she doesn't know about training and nutrition for males.   You live and you learn you can choose to take an experienced person's tips and advice or you can go the hard way and learn on your own but in the end if you are going to be doing this for the long haul you will get to that point on your own.  As far as the diet discussion goes there really isn't even an argument.  Built is right on the money here.  Trust me she knows diet and nutrition.  I wouldn't even dare try to challenge her in this subject.  Seriously if she starts talking about something to do with diet and nutrition I suggest you listen and listen well because I can promise you it will be great advice.  Anytime I have a issue there I come to her.  She is not closed minded either.  We had discussions about Insulin where she listened to my thought and opinion and we made sense of it.  She is one of the most helpful mods you will find and if you treat her with respect she will give it right back.  She goes beyond what is necessary to help others with their needs.  Please be respectful Trap, Built is a wonderful person that can truly teach you  a lot if you are willing to learn.


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## Anabolic5150 (May 14, 2011)

^^^^^^^^^^^

Well said.


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## trapzilla (May 14, 2011)

TGB1987 said:


> Please refrain from insulting built for trying to help you. Sometimes it is hard to accept when you are wrong about something I know believe me but it does happen especially in this sport/lifestyle. There is so much information to take in that it is nearly impossible to know everything about everything. Unfortunately for you this is Built's specialty. She is absolutely phenomenal with diet and nutrition. She has helped me with my diet more than two different endos and two PCPs could regarding an issue I had with reactive Hypoglycemia. We actually discussed my diet on the phone for a couple of hours on a weekend. This is her passion and you can tell by how knowledgable she is. She really means well and wants to help. In this thread she has given you nothing but great information. She is right overtraining will prevent you from getting the most out of your workouts. I wish I would of learned this when I first began training. I overtrained and worked harder than I had to to get where I wanted and all it did for me was burn me out after a couple years and make my joints ache everyday. My shoulders are not doing to good and what is bad is I am not that old even though I have been training for around 12 years. I decided to change my training up when I started to lose interest in my training routine and ache all the time. What a difference. The older I get the more I learn what my body is saying and the more it responds. Built is actually saving you a hard earned lesson. Just because she is a female doesn't mean she doesn't know about training and nutrition for males. You live and you learn you can choose to take an experienced person's tips and advice or you can go the hard way and learn on your own but in the end if you are going to be doing this for the long haul you will get to that point on your own. As far as the diet discussion goes there really isn't even an argument. Built is right on the money here. Trust me she knows diet and nutrition. I wouldn't even dare try to challenge her in this subject. Seriously if she starts talking about something to do with diet and nutrition I suggest you listen and listen well because I can promise you it will be great advice. Anytime I have a issue there I come to her. She is not closed minded either. We had discussions about Insulin where she listened to my thought and opinion and we made sense of it. She is one of the most helpful mods you will find and if you treat her with respect she will give it right back. She goes beyond what is necessary to help others with their needs. Please be respectful Trap, Built is a wonderful person that can truly teach you a lot if you are willing to learn.


 
edit; resolution sought privately


----------



## TGB1987 (May 14, 2011)

It is hard to tell what kind of tone or attitude someone may be using in text.  Sometimes things may look a way they actually are not.  She means well and if you knew her you would know that .  Trust me


----------



## Built (May 14, 2011)

trap and I are cool - no worries. I ate some chocolate and watched Oprah; he downloaded porn and rubbed one out, we're both calmer now. 

(Okay I don't actually know what trap did, and I downloaded porn and rubbed one out. Whatever. )

Peace.


----------



## Merkaba (May 15, 2011)

trapzilla said:


> I Have never and I repeat never seen a big dude perform the routines that are often suggested on this site, introduce me to one and i'll shut up about my training style for good but until that point i'm still gonna beat my friggin drum.



Do I qualify?  I'm natural, never even seen gear(seriously), never taken anything more potent than creatine, 5-10, 255, about 20%BF, Six pack never leaves,moderate scoliosis, missing some of my left knee.  I rarely Pull or squat over 400 because I don't want or need to. I seldom do more than 10 work reps.  Seldom do more than 4 work sets per exercise.   I do all core lifts, and maybe 2 or 3 supporting type of movements.   I rarely workout for more than 1.5 hours.  If I go that long it's because I'm day-training someone asking me questions or someone's generally trying to talk my ear off. I rest for 2 or more minutes depending on what I'm doing.   Lately I'm gettin' burned out from being in the gym and being around the type of shit going on in this goddam thread.  Posturing.  Oh I can workout longer than you I kick ass, oh dude I'm up earlier than you I kick ass, my car's faster than yours I kick ass, I do (insert workout type name here) so I kick ass, dude I kick ass, .... I'm 35 in July so maybe I'm just getting old... or wise.

Look noone cares about a couple of dudes you're considering your single-blind test pool!  This is why built is getting short with you. You're ever so slightly trying to (whether you realize it or not) skirt around the basic math of thermodynamics while trying to make a point.  If you want to talk science around here you need to have your ducks in row or you're probably going to be considered talking heavily weighted opinion.  Shit i don't talk as much science because Built is Waaaaaaay more keen on that shit than I.    If you're not sure what your friend took, then remove him from your pool.  If anyone is "growing with you" they are growing FIRST because of dietary intake.  I could do your workout and lose weight, if the caloric math is appropriate. This is what Built is trying to drive home to you.  There are no if's, ands, or buts, or 3 other possible reasons dude.  This is the point.  And to dwell on this shit is to further perpetuate THE BIGGEST part of the shitty ass facades of ignorance that run the entire fitness industry.  

 Get the fuck over your self dude. I looked at your workout journal. Yea it's alot. A hell of alot.  Now what?  Apart from some shit I don't do like pullovers,crushers, sissy's, etc.  i could do your workout with you, playing the all natural card, especially while bulking.  Before dropping 10 lbs and I stopped eating I was repping 365 on bench and squatting 500 at the end of the workout.   Built is probably one of the nicest people on this forum and she continues to give the same logical scientific backed basic(and complex) type of remarks over and over again, although so many people can't get it through their thick type A male(or female for that matter) numbskulls.  People like me start to wonder why people can't get this shit and we get tired of repeating the same shit and start to curse, holler and spit, like I'm doing now, especially when some nut crosses the line.  But Built is usually the one what will step in and give it to you straight without the joking or shit talking.  I'm tired of the typical Warrior-man hear me roar type of rebuttals or logic for training.  If I were geared up I'd be a self proclaimed freak.  

So you're from the U.K. and now you want to sweep all Americans in a category for joke? People that do shit like this or even have it in the forefront of their pea sized brains for enough time to even joke about it, just lets me know what type of person we're dealing with and the type of thoughts that must be in your head on a regular basis.


----------



## Merkaba (May 15, 2011)

trapzilla said:


> edit; resolution sought privately



good to know. I'm still leaving my shit up cause you wanted to speak some anti-American shit on a fucking muscle forum in order to charge up your opinion.  Why don't you throw in some religion too while you're at it.  

I was born and bred in the "country" of this great country.  Eating hog and eggs and grits and toast for breakfast.  

And just for the record Built also helped me with my first show.  2nd place on 4 weeks of diet.


----------



## Merkaba (May 15, 2011)

Did someone mention Oprah, chocolate, porn, and rubbin' one out?  sounds like a typical day for me. I usually try to hit up Ellen before Oprah she's funny.


----------



## Built (May 15, 2011)

Ooooh, chocolate porn!


----------



## ponyboy (May 15, 2011)

Built said:


> Ooooh, chocolate porn!



Go to Google Images, take your filters off and type that in.  I dare you.


----------



## juggernaut (May 15, 2011)

Built you handle yourself, as always, with class and backed researched data. 
Trap, tone the attitude down. You won't win with her. She outclasses you, outsmarts you, and has every right to her opinion. Btw-your training journal sucks. Keep spinning your wheels. As for your American bashing comments-that's just too bad that you think you're above us. Have another steroid cookie, you're coming off as a dimwitted douchebag, bro. 
Resolution or not, change your attitude. You haven't garnered enough points here to bash anyone, let alone a mod.


----------



## Anabolic5150 (May 15, 2011)

My opinion, Built has said her and Trap are cool. Continuing to bash him, even if it's with cause does nothing positive. I didn't like the anti-American comments, but things are said in the heat of the moment and need to be forgiven. Let's all move on.


----------



## Anabolic5150 (May 15, 2011)

Built,

Videos of you eating chocolate, watching porn and rubbing one out or it didn't happen. Lol


----------



## Built (May 15, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> Built,
> 
> Videos of you eating chocolate, watching porn and rubbing one out or it didn't happen. Lol



Then it didn't happen; and it's official: I'm a lady.


----------



## Merkaba (May 15, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> My opinion, Built has said her and Trap are cool. Continuing to bash him, even if it's with cause does nothing positive. I didn't like the anti-American comments, but things are said in the heat of the moment and need to be forgiven. Let's all move on.



Yea...some of us came in late and need to get our rocks off though.


----------



## Anabolic5150 (May 15, 2011)

Built said:


> Then it didn't happen; and it's official: I'm a lady.



Yes you are a lady, and I think it did happen.


----------



## Anabolic5150 (May 15, 2011)

Merkaba said:


> Yea...some of us came in late and need to get our rocks off though.



No worries, but let's all let it go now. We have better things to do.


----------



## trapzilla (May 15, 2011)

Dear all,

I would like to apologise for all bar my first posts in this thread, they were completely out of order and not warranted, I have every bit of respect for the moderators and members of this board.

I have messaged all affected parties apologising as far as I am aware.

regards 
Trapz


----------



## Anabolic5150 (May 15, 2011)

Takes a big man to apologize Trap, I respect you for doing just that. Let's all move on, get smarter, stronger, bigger or tighter. Whatever our goal, we are a community.


----------



## juggernaut (May 15, 2011)

trapzilla said:


> Dear all,
> 
> I would like to apologise for all bar my first posts in this thread, they were completely out of order and not warranted, I have every bit of respect for the moderators and members of this board.
> 
> ...



Onward and upwards. Built is a lighthouse in the darkest of areas on this board, plus a great friend. She's one one of the reasons I have the success I have in this field. When she speaks, everyone should take out a pencil and paper and learn, because class is in session.  
As for your apology, we all feel all pink fuzzy. Now can we get back to American Idol bashing please?


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## juggernaut (May 15, 2011)

Built said:


> Then it didn't happen; and it's official: I'm a lady.



Says who??


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## Built (May 15, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> Takes a big man to apologize Trap, I respect you for doing just that.


That's what I told him when he PMd me yesterday. 

Now - getting back to the discussion - high volume workouts are great to toss in from time to time when you're eating a ton. I do that myself sometimes - just not all the time. Mind you, I'm a fossil; my body falls apart when I do too much. If your joints feel good and you're making good gains, carry on; when you start dreading your time in the gym, maybe take a break and then do something else for a while.


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## Anabolic5150 (May 15, 2011)

Built said:


> That's what I told him when he PMd me yesterday.
> 
> Now - getting back to the discussion - high volume workouts are great to toss in from time to time when you're eating a ton. I do that myself sometimes - just not all the time. Mind you, I'm a fossil; my body falls apart when I do too much. If your joints feel good and you're making good gains, carry on; *when you start dreading your time in the gym, maybe take a break and then do something else for a while*.


 

The bolded part is the #1 key for me.


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## Thresh (May 15, 2011)

Built said:


> That's what I told him when he PMd me yesterday.
> 
> Now - getting back to the discussion - high volume workouts are great to toss in from time to time when you're eating a ton. I do that myself sometimes - just not all the time. Mind you, I'm a fossil; my body falls apart when I do too much. If your joints feel good and you're making good gains, carry on; when you start dreading your time in the gym, maybe take a break and then do something else for a while.



Wonder if that's my problem, I love working out harder and harder, longer and longer. After doing around 600 reps on arm day, an hour later I'll be asking my friend if he wants to play tennis or go rock climbing. If he didn't say no all the time I'd never sit still and rest.


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## ihateschoolmt (May 15, 2011)

Whoa 600 reps on arm day? I did 3 sets and 23 reps last leg day and I almost threw up lol I bet that is your problem.


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## Thresh (May 15, 2011)

ihateschoolmt said:


> Whoa 600 reps on arm day? I did 3 sets and 23 reps last leg day and I almost threw up lol I bet that is your problem.



I'm currently doing arnold's 6 day duel split, arms where the a.m. Workout. 

Biceps:

Barbell curls 6 x 6-10
Seated dumbbell curls 6 x 6-10
Dumbbell concentration curls 6 x 6-10

Triceps:

Close-grip bench presses 6 x 6-10
Pushdowns 6 x 6-10
French press (barbell) 6 x 6-10
One-arm triceps extensions (dumbbell) 6 x 6-10

This workout great for the first 2 weeks, bit then I had to add more shit...

Superset 10 sets with zero rest, with Tricep cable pushdown with rope and cable hammer curled with rope, your on one exercise, partner on the other, do 10 reps then switch. When all is said and done you get 200 continuous reps out of that. Do this twice you got 400 right there. 

Next arm day we will do heavier weight with half the reps.


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## ihateschoolmt (May 15, 2011)

That's quite a lot man, got to remember Arnold was hitting the juice pretty hard. You train arms twice a week on their own day and they are still getting worked on chest and back day, so you are pretty much hitting bi's and tri's 3 times a week that sounds like too much to me.


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## Thresh (May 16, 2011)

Ill doo this routine for a month then switch up to a 5 day routine, would be longer and harder workouts but more rest days....that's the plan


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## Anabolic5150 (May 16, 2011)

Thresh, as much as I respect Arnold, that workout will overtrain you so quick. Do you have a job? A life? Arnold didn't do shit but train, eat and hang out at the beach, Joe Weider paid the bills. On my best days I would last maybe two weeks on that program, it's not a good layout at all.


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## juggernaut (May 16, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> Thresh, as much as I respect Arnold, that workout will overtrain you so quick. Do you have a job? A life? Arnold didn't do shit but train, eat and hang out at the beach, Joe Weider paid the bills. On my best days I would last maybe two weeks on that program, it's not a good layout at all.



He's right; it worked for Arnold, because he's Arnold. That's a shitload of volume. I will usually respond to a total of 8-12 sets total for group, and that's with differing rep schemes throughout the year. If I'm gaining, I go even lower, ala blue collar training or 531. My mission is build a shitload of muscle, but do it intelligently. At 243lbs with 10% fat, I'm not doing too bad a job.


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## Anabolic5150 (May 16, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> He's right; it worked for Arnold, because he's Arnold. That's a shitload of volume. I will usually respond to a total of 8-12 sets total for group, and that's with differing rep schemes throughout the year. If I'm gaining, I go even lower, ala blue collar training or 531. My mission is build a shitload of muscle, but do it intelligently. At 243lbs with 10% fat, I'm not doing too bad a job.


 
At 243 and 10% I'd say you have your training dialed in as well as your diet and rest schedule. Much respect to you!!


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## juggernaut (May 16, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> At 243 and 10% I'd say you have your training dialed in as well as your diet and rest schedule. Much respect to you!!



Thanks! I'm a research dweeb. MariAnne made me that way


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## camarosuper6 (May 16, 2011)

When I train people, I limit them to an hour unless they are athletes with specific needs.

I usually get can in and out of the gym in around 45 minutes.


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## ponyboy (May 16, 2011)

Thresh said:


> Wonder if that's my problem, I love working out harder and harder, longer and longer. After doing around 600 reps on arm day, an hour later I'll be asking my friend if he wants to play tennis or go rock climbing. If he didn't say no all the time I'd never sit still and rest.



It takes you 600 reps?  Oh, you meant in the gym...never mind.


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## Anabolic5150 (May 16, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> Thanks! I'm a research dweeb. MariAnne made me that way


 
She is the best!!


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## Merkaba (May 16, 2011)

Thresh said:


> I'm currently doing arnold's 6 day duel split, arms where the a.m. Workout.
> 
> Biceps:
> 
> ...


Um yes...Arnold was a Freak AND geared up.  Keep that in mind.


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## Kusakup (May 16, 2011)

If I'm solo it's ~45 minutes and if I have a partner it is around an hour.


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## fraseram (May 17, 2011)

ok so heres a question..... we are finding that MOST people are around 1 hour in gym on average 
but how many times a week? do you cardio on off days?


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## juggernaut (May 17, 2011)

4-5


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## Thresh (May 17, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> Thresh, as much as I respect Arnold, that workout will overtrain you so quick. Do you have a job? A life? Arnold didn't do shit but train, eat and hang out at the beach, Joe Weider paid the bills. On my best days I would last maybe two weeks on that program, it's not a good layout at all.



Yes I have a job, I work between 60-80 hours a week. Yes I have a life cause I never need more than 4 hours of sleep a day to be perfectly fine. I pay all my own bills 

You do realize if you don't socialize you can do this workout in two 1.5 hour sessions. I currently do not do the abs for an hour, but it would be rather easy to do that at night before bed. 

Maybe I'm crazy but overtraining is a myth I'm sorry. As long as you give muscles time to heal, you can train them all day. People in the Olympics train 4-8 hours a day, the same freaking muscles. 

Sorry I also don't think Arnold wad done genetically special person as well. I believe when he picked up his first set of weights he was 6" 150lbs? What the he'll is special about that?  The human body will adapt to anything you put it through. Thought that was evident enough when I used to rock climb 8hrs a day (as a job) and still weight lifted after. 

O well. I'm up 20lbs in just over a month, went from 13" biceps to over 16" from over training. I have never done an illegal steroid (yet), just super dmz, one bottle. If I stop growing, I'll do what anyone else would do, change up routine....


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## Oitepal (May 17, 2011)

45 mins per body part for me


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## Diesel618 (May 17, 2011)

I recently changed my routine a bit and I can get every bodypart besides legs done in 45 mins. Legs take about an hour to an hour and 15 for me. I go 5 days a week but on my rest days I still get to the gym for abs and calves. 15 minutes cardio daily after workout, 45 min jog/walk intervals twice weekly in the A.M.


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## Anabolic5150 (May 17, 2011)

Thresh said:


> Yes I have a job, I work between 60-80 hours a week. Yes I have a life cause I never need more than 4 hours of sleep a day to be perfectly fine. I pay all my own bills
> 
> You do realize if you don't socialize you can do this workout in two 1.5 hour sessions. I currently do not do the abs for an hour, but it would be rather easy to do that at night before bed.
> 
> ...


 

Well, I wish you the best in your training endeavors.


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## ihateschoolmt (May 17, 2011)

Thresh said:


> Maybe I'm crazy but over training is a myth I'm sorry. As long as you give muscles time to heal, you can train them all day. People in the Olympics train 4-8 hours a day, the same freaking muscles.


All that other stuff is fine and I won't argue with it, and if this training is working for you then that's great and I won't say anything about that either, but over-training isn't a myth. Ya Olympic athletes train for 8 hours a day but it's endurance training, like swimming or running. It's not heavy weight lifting the whole time. Being 20 definitely helps you recover faster than someone older but training arms 3 or 4 hours a week will catch up with you. And I don't mean when your 30. I think a few months of that and the average guy would start seeing negative results. It's ok to bring up a weak point and hit it hard for a month or two but it's hard to continue like that.

Also, just curious you said you gained 20 pounds but 3 inches to your arms. Are you training your whole body? Cause I have gained about 50 pounds and only gained about 2.75 inches to my arms.


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## Thresh (May 17, 2011)

I lifted about 7 years ago and Im getting back into it. My arms have basically returned to where they were previously, maybe slightly smaller, I thought I had measured 16.25" back in the day.  

Yeah I train the entire body. I take it easy on my legs cause of a knee injury i had awhile back, dont want it to come back as well.  Here is the link to the routine. 

Bodybuilding.com - What Is The Best Professional Bodybuilder Workout?


On the other note, muscles are nothing but fibers that do mechanical motions, they only grow in response to stress. They take 48 hours to heal. Overtraining generally refers to the nervous system. Your nervous system gets hit when all the little chemicals that help neurons fire get depleted (from my super simplistic point of view). 

Now the symptoms for overtraining...lack of motivation, drive, feel like shit. All sound like symptoms of depression to me, a nerve thing. All the over training in the world I gaurentee you that your body mechanically still works after a 2 hour workout.  A large portion of the population can get depression.  I on the underhand am a feel the burn junky, it's my crack. I don't get my crack then I get a little depressed 

And yeah it will be hard as shit to continue! But I'll try   and what the hell is wrong with 30? (I'm 27 and counting the days till I'm 30....cause it sucks lol)


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## ihateschoolmt (May 17, 2011)

Oh I thought you said you were 20 lol. I hear ya, muscle memory definitely helps. Wow that is a lot of volume. I don't think I have done as many reps the whole time I've been working out as one week of that routine haha. I think I did 19 reps in todays workout minus grip work which was timed holds and not reps anyways.


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## Built (May 18, 2011)

Thresh, you've been eating a lot, taking a PH and training like a maniac for a month. I'm glad you're seeing results. I'll wait to see how you feel in another three months on this.


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## Built (May 18, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> Thanks! I'm a research dweeb. MariAnne made me that way



It's how I ruin lives.


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## Thresh (May 18, 2011)

Built said:


> Thresh, you've been eating a lot, taking a PH and training like a maniac for a month. I'm glad you're seeing results. I'll wait to see how you feel in another three months on this.



I ran out of the ph before I started the routine. I did just order more though, got results with the ironmag products so I might as well try them again. 

I should have done a log.


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## juggernaut (May 18, 2011)

Built said:


> It's how I ruin lives.



It made me a better trainer! 
Now I just need tape on my glasses, a pen proctector for my short sleeved collared shirt and the sleeves torn off.


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## juggernaut (May 18, 2011)

Thresh said:


> And yeah it will be hard as shit to continue! But I'll try   and what the hell is wrong with 30? (I'm 27 and counting the days till I'm 30....cause it sucks lol)


27 and whining...fucking generation full of bitches...jk 

Why did you stop training?


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## primo33333 (May 18, 2011)

millertime said:


> when i was young i work at a powerhouse gym and all the guys that work there said not to spend more than 90 minutes cus after that it starts to harm muscle grow. with that being said i noticed that most of the guys that are serious about it stay a least 2 hours myself included. with about an hour or so with wieght training and 30-45 minutes with cardio.i think this is a myth 2 hours doesnt seem bad as long as your diet is good. what do you guys think?



thats what i like to accomplish when i hit the gym, 2 hours max


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## rayb (May 18, 2011)

Good discussion


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## Thresh (May 18, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> 27 and whining...fucking generation full of bitches...jk
> 
> Why did you stop training?



Life, school, shit facility where I lived didn't help motivate me. Got back into it after a friend ask me to go, we stuck with it, then of course my addiction kicked back in for lifting weights.


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## Radical (May 18, 2011)

rayb said:


> Good discussion


 

Yeah somewhat, but to each his own at the end of the day.


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## OneWheyOrAnother (May 18, 2011)

In my personal experience you listen to your body. If you are NOT gaining but everything else including diet, sleep, supplementation is dialed in; then you are probably over training and should lower your volume. 

I have hit plateaus before and lowering my volume helped push me past my plateaus. If you are still gaining, you can play around with it and increase your volume if you wish.
But once you stop gaining, you probably need to look at reducing the volume.

At this time, I personally only train 3 times per week for an average of 1 hour 15 to 1 hour 30. That's excluding cardio.
I do no chatting in the gym. I am all business when I am there. I lift each set to 90 - 95% intensity except warm up sets.
I am usually drained by the end of my work out. This is what is working FOR ME at this time. 

LISTEN TO YOUR BODY !!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ponyboy (May 18, 2011)

I wish more of you guys were at my gym.  At 4pm my gym goes full retard with guys basically hanging out there for three hours.  Same group, all chatting and taking ten minutes rest between sets.  

One guy came in tonight and I actually heard him say he was working bis and abs today so it wouldn't be a long workout, and then he started walking around catching up with whatever he didn't talk to everyone about yesterday.  I'm working with clients the whole time.  At 6:30pm (he came in at 4) he's still doing sets of abs.  I've never seen any of these guys on cardio at all.


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