# Anybody switch to just BCAA's or hydrolyzed whey PWO?



## troubador (Jan 3, 2013)

Isn't this theoretically the best thing to take immediately after a workout?

I guess most people are aware the PWO insulin spike is unnecessary. Elevated blood glucose levels also reduce growth hormone secretion. Whey takes about 30 minutes before it's absorbed into the bloodstream and supposedly the longer you wait take it the more anabolic the response is. BCAA's and hydrolyzed whey are absorbed rapidly into the blood stream. Wouldn't it make sense to take BCAA's immediately afterwards then .5-1 hour later eat a complete meal? What are your thoughts on this?


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## Valkyrie (Jan 3, 2013)

I really don't delve too deep because you end up in a brosciencewar. Bromageddon.  Now I happen to be a fan of bro science.  I used to do whey protein w/in 30min PWO that's what my coach had me do.  Now I use BCAAs with aminos period workout so pre, sometimes during, and post.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jan 4, 2013)

troubador said:


> Isn't this theoretically the best thing to take immediately after a workout?
> 
> I guess most people are aware the PWO insulin spike is unnecessary.



*Anabolic Insulin*

Insulin is regarded as one of the most anabolic hormones of the body.  The Post Workout Insulin Spike provide an anabolic environment for muscle growth. 

1) Insulin promotes Protein Synthesis.  Protein Synthesis > Muscle Growth.  It does this by stimulating mTOR (Mammalian Target of Rapamysin).  

2) It simulates protein independent of mTOR.  

3) It slows protein breakdown.  

Reference: Drs John Ivy/Robertd Protman: Hardwired for Fitness (research)



troubador said:


> Elevated blood glucose levels also reduce growth hormone secretion.



*Initial Shut Down Then Rebound Effect*

Initailly, glucose does reduce growth hormone secretion.  However, research demonstartes growth hormone rebounds approximate 6 hours later.  

*Increased Cortisol*

Cortisol is a catabolic hormone.  It is produced after a workout. 

One of the things insulin does is shut down or limit cortisol.  By shutting down cortisol, you preserve muscle. 

*Insulin?an Undeserved Bad Reputation ? Weightology Weekly*

This explains in more depth insulin's role in training.  


troubador said:


> Whey takes about 30 minutes before it's absorbed into the bloodstream and supposedly the longer you wait take it the more anabolic the response is.



*Research *

Research has demonstrated that after a workout the body is primed for growth.  A post workout beverage is most effective when ingested within 30 minutes following your workout.  

The longer you wait to ingest something the less effective the anabolic response.  



troubador said:


> BCAA's and hydrolyzed whey are absorbed rapidly into the blood stream. Wouldn't it make sense to take BCAA's immediately afterwards then .5-1 hour later eat a complete meal?



*NO!*

To maximize you recover after a workout, you want to consume high glycemic index carbohydrates along with a quickly digested protein, such as whey.  

However, the best anabolic results are obtain by consumine a Pre, Peri and Post Workout Beverage.  

*T NATION | Maximize Protein Synthesis*
Bill Willis PhDc and John Meadows CISSN, CSCS

This article will give you a better insite as to why insulin is so vital to muscle growth. 



troubador said:


> What are your thoughts on this?



You need to read more.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## theCaptn' (Jan 4, 2013)

Kenny Croxdale is a god!


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## nikos_ (Jan 4, 2013)

asking me
the best shake for pwo is whey + 5gr leucine

no need for carbs,as long as you gonna take the needed amount in the whole day
whey stimulates enough insulin by its self

nice link
Insulin…an Undeserved Bad Reputation ? Weightology Weekly


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## troubador (Jan 4, 2013)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> To maximize you recover after a workout, you want to consume high glycemic index carbohydrates along with a quickly digested protein, such as whey.
> 
> You need to read more.
> 
> Kenny Croxdale



Studies have shown that increasing insulin levels above 15-30 mU/L, which is slightly above normal base levels, achieves no greater inhibition of muscle breakdown. 
http://user210805.websitewizard.com/files/unprotected/AARR-Jan-2008.pdf

I know insulin is an important hormone but I don't see why I need to spike it or if I need a fast digesting protein why I would use whey which takes 30 minutes to digest.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jan 4, 2013)

nikos_ said:


> asking me
> the best shake for pwo is whey + 5gr leucine
> 
> no need for carbs,as long as you gonna take the needed amount in the whole day
> whey stimulates enough insulin by its self



*The Need For Post Workout Cabs*

Ingesting carbs along with protein enhances recovery moreso than NO carbs and protein. 

There is pleanty of reasearch that backs it up.  

Nutrient Timing by Drs John Ivy and Robert Portman provice you with the research data and the program of how to use the right carbrotein ratio.

John Meadow's "Mazimizing Protein Synthesis" goes into the importance of ingesting carbs, post workout.  

One of the most interesting analogy of Meadows is the post workout carbohydrates hold the "protein synthesis" throttle open longer.  Thus, allowing more protein synthesis to take place.  

Remember, Protein Synthesis = Faster Recovery and Increase Muscle Mass.  

Bodybuilders use insulin because it magnifies protein synthesis.  I am not advocating injecting insulin, just illustrating the point of insulin's role as an anabolic hormone. 

Another illustration is that one of the first signs of someone being diabetic is weight loss.  That because their body is either Insulin Resistant or is not producing insulin.  

*Harnessing Insulin*

One of the keys to increasing muscle mass is knowing when to and not to "turn on the insulin switch". 

Kenny Croxdale


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## hypo_glycemic (Jan 4, 2013)

Aminocore by Allmax nutrition!!


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## nikos_ (Jan 4, 2013)

glycogen is restored
if someone takes the needed amount of carbs during the day there is absolutely no reason to take sugars with his whey
a usual work out of an amateur bber,like us,has very little effect to the restorted glycogen


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## hypo_glycemic (Jan 4, 2013)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> *Anabolic Insulin*
> 
> Insulin is regarded as one of the most anabolic hormones of the body.  The Post Workout Insulin Spike provide an anabolic environment for muscle growth.
> 
> ...



I could of googled this 100 times over??


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jan 4, 2013)

troubador said:


> Studies have shown that increasing insulin levels above 15-30 mU/L, which is slightly above normal base levels, achieves no greater inhibition of muscle breakdown.
> http://user210805.websitewizard.com/files/unprotected/AARR-Jan-2008.pdf
> 
> I know insulin is an important hormone but I don't see why I need to spike it or if I need a fast digesting protein why I would use whey which takes 30 minutes to digest.



*Pre, Peri, Post Workout* 

You need to ingest something before your workout, during your workout and after your workout to fully maximize the anabolic effect of nutrient timing.  

*Heart Attach*

Think of your workout as a having a heart attack.  If you know they you are going to have a heart attack two hours before you have it would you: 

1) Take something before you have it? 

2) Take something  while you are having it? 

3) Take something after having it? 

Answer: All of the above.  

Doing so, insures that you do NOT have to take something and wait 30 mintues for whey (whatever) to digest.  

*Pro-Active*

As someone once said, *"Action beat reaction"!*  Ingesting something before and during your workout beats doing nothing until you are finished.  

Kenny Croxdale


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## testodave (Jan 5, 2013)

troubador said:


> Isn't this theoretically the best thing to take immediately after a workout?
> 
> I guess most people are aware the PWO insulin spike is unnecessary. Elevated blood glucose levels also reduce growth hormone secretion. Whey takes about 30 minutes before it's absorbed into the bloodstream and supposedly the longer you wait take it the more anabolic the response is. BCAA's and hydrolyzed whey are absorbed rapidly into the blood stream. Wouldn't it make sense to take BCAA's immediately afterwards then .5-1 hour later eat a complete meal? What are your thoughts on this?



I just watch George Farah and Kai Greene seminar and thus was brought up...george Farah said exactly what you said he said hydro whey is the best to take right after a workout and save carbs for later.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jan 5, 2013)

testodave said:


> I just watch George Farah and Kai Greene seminar and thus was brought up...george Farah said exactly what you said he said hydro whey is the best to take right after a workout and save carbs for later.



*Hydrolyzed Whey*

This is a good post workout protein.  That because it is composed of Di and Tri peptides.  

Di and Tri Peptides are absorbed quickly.  The are absorbed in appoximately twenty minutes.  

*Other Whey*

Whey concentrate appears to be absored talk longer, it may take up to 120 minutes. 

Cross Flow and Isolate Whey digestion take place somewhere between Hydrolyzed and Concentrate.  

*Leucine The Anabolic Trigger*

This amino acid is the Anabolic Trigger.  It's stimulate mTOR (Mammalian Target of Rapamycin).  mTor elicits Protein Synthesis.  

That greater the Protein Synthesis, the faster you recovery...which lead to an increase in strength and/or muscle mass dependent on how your training program is written.  

Between 10-12% of whey protein is composed of Leucine.  Thus, that is one of the reason that whey is dubbed as the most effective post workout protein. 

Spiking your Post Workout Beverage with some additional Leucine give an additional bump.  

Reseach has revealed the amount of Leucine you consume in your diet plays a huge role in determing muscle growth.  It appears that .7 to 1.0 grams of Luecine a day in your diet creates and anabolic environment.  

*Example: 200 lb Athlete*

Approximately, 14 to 20 grams a day will is creates the anabolic enviromment. 

200 lbs X .7 = 14 grams of Leucine. 

200 lbs X 1.0 = 20 grams of Luecine.

The quality of protein determine how much Luecine you are getting.  Plant based proteins are low in Luecine.  Animal based proteins are a richer source of Luecine. 

*Insulin The Anabolic Hormone*

Insulin activates mTOR alone.  As we know high glycemic index carbohydrates trigger insulin release.  

*Shuttle System*

Insulin quickly restored depleted glycogen back to the muscles.  Research has shown that during the post workout period, the muscle soak up glycogen like a dry sponge. 

When you wait too long before consuming carbohydrates, less than half of the carbohydrates you consume are used to restore glycogen.  

*Filling Up Your Car*

Think about it like gasing up your car.  You stop and only fill up your tank half way before going on a trip.  

You then have to stop again, taking more time on your trip to gas up again.  

If fill you tank up, you will get there quicker. 

*"Saving Carbs For Later"*  

Research and anedotal data have proven this to be a contrindiated method of restoration. 

*Insulin: Protein Degradation*

_1) Insulin is also a powerful inhibitor of muscle protein degradation.

2) ...post-workout glucose consumption, although not activating protein synthesis, also had a powerful inhibiting effect on protein degradation.

3) ..."holds the throttle open longer" for the protein synthetic machinery after a workout._ 

Source: Maximizing Protein Synthesis/John Meadows

*Back to Pre, Peri and Post Workout Nutrition*

The "Heart Attack Analogy" above explains the importance of being Pro-Active. 

Kenny Croxdale


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jan 7, 2013)

troubador said:


> Elevated blood glucose levels also reduce growth hormone secretion.



*True But...*

I attended the EAS Nutrition Sports Summit last October.  Dr John Ivy one of the leading sports nutrition researchers was quizzed about the fact that carbohydrates post workout suppress growth hormone secretion. 

Ivy stated that Power Workout Carbohydrates did initially suppress growth hormone

However, research demonstrated that 6 hour later growth hormone rebounded.  



troubador said:


> Wouldn't it make sense to take BCAA's immediately afterwards...?



*Leucine is one of the BCAAs.* 

Leucine stimulates insulin secretion, which is what you want Post Workout.  

Thus, ingesting BCAA's post workout is going to create the effect you advocate avoiding.  

The ONLY way to insure insulin is suppressed Post Workout is to abstain from consuming anything.  

Consuming nothing Post Workout produces more of a catabolic rather than an anabolic environment.  

*Research Below*

Below research abstract on growth hormone rebound that occurs after consuming a Carbohydrate/Protein Post Workout Beverage. 

Kenny Croxdale

*Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormones after weight-training exercise.*
Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormo... [J Appl Physiol. 1994] - PubMed - NCBI
J Appl Physiol. 1994 Feb;76(2):839-45.
Chandler RM, Byrne HK, Patterson JG, Ivy JL.

Source

Department of Kinesiology, University of Texas at Austin 78712.

Abstract

To examine the effect of carbohydrate and/or protein supplements on the hormonal state of the body after weight-training exercise, nine experienced male weight lifters were given water (Control) or an isocaloric carbohydrate (CHO; 1.5 g/kg body wt), protein (PRO; 1.38 g/kg body wt), or carbohydrate-protein (CHO/PRO; 1.06 g carbohydrate/kg body wt and 0.41 g protein/kg) supplement immediately and 2 h after a standardized weight-training workout. Venous blood samples were drawn before and immediately after exercise and during 8 h of recovery. Exercise induced elevations in lactate, glucose, testosterone, and growth hormone. CHO and CHO/PRO stimulated higher insulin concentrations than PRO and Control. *CHO/PRO led to an increase in growth hormone 6 h postexercise that was greater than PRO and Control. *Supplements had no effect on insulin-like growth factor I but caused a significant decline in testosterone. The decline in testosterone, however, was not associated with a decline in luteinizing hormone, suggesting an increased clearance of testosterone after supplementation. The results suggest that *nutritive supplements after weight-training exercise can produce a hormonal environment during recovery that may be favorable to muscle growth by stimulating insulin and growth hormone elevations.*


PMID: 8175597 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## ashoprep1 (Jan 7, 2013)

Good posts ken


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## troubador (Jan 9, 2013)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> Leucine stimulates insulin secretion, which is what you want Post Workout.



How much does Leucine (without also ingesting carbs) acutely increase insulin? I read that without the addition of carbs that the acute elevation of insulin by leucine is negligible but could find actual numbers.


A different study...
"Our data suggest that insulin is not additive or synergistic to rates of MPS or MPB when CHO is coingested with a dose of protein that maximally stimulates rates of MPS."
?Carbohydrate does not augment exercise-... [Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI


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## HeavyLifter (Jan 9, 2013)

I normally do BCAA'S durning workout than do protein whey and L-Glutamine post workout.


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## dave 236 (Jan 10, 2013)

I use BCAAs about 15 mins pre w/o. Then whey post w/o. Seems to work well and gives me a bit more gas through the last reps. Maybe its just a placebo effect but i can tell a difference. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jan 10, 2013)

troubador said:


> How much does Leucine (without also ingesting carbs) acutely increase insulin? I read that without the addition of carbs that the acute elevation of insulin by leucine is negligible but could find actual numbers.



Did you read the article that I posted above?  

If not read them. 

If you read them, then re-read them a few more times...learning requires repetition of information.

Other articles: 

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/leucine6.pdf

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/leucine3.pdf

Leucine metabolism in regulation of insulin secreti... [Nutr Rev. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI
This is an abstract. 

*Insulin Index*

For years the Gycemic Index was used to measure insulin release.  The Gycemic Index didn't implacate amino acids in insulin production.  

Then someone discovered the Insulin Index.  The Insulin Index method found that certain foods and the amino acid, Leucine produce insulin.  

*NO Insulin Production*

As I stated before, the ONLY method that insures you do NOT produce insulin is to abstain from eating before, during and a few hours after your workout. 

*Anabolic Insulin*

Insulin is regarded as one of not the most anabolic hormone of the body.  

Why would you want to shut down production of this anabolic hormone?  

Shutting down insulin is not different than shutting down testosterone production.  

*Lipogenic Insulin*

Ironically, not only is insulin the most anabolic/muscle building hormone of the body it is also the most the most fat storing hormone.  

The key is knowing when and how to use it to increase muscle mass...and when to limit it's release to minimize body fat storage. 

Research

Research shows that a Post Workout Carbodhyrate/Protein Beverage produces an anabolic environment.  Insulin acts as a transport system, shutting glycogen back into the muscle cells.  

Research shows that once an hour and a half has pasted, approximately 50% of glycogen is restored to the muscle cells when from carbohydrates are consume.  

That 50% reduction in glycogen storage means that it is going to take you longer to recover.  

A longer recovery means you progress at a much slower rate.   

Kenny Croxdale


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jan 10, 2013)

HeavyLifter said:


> I normally do BCAA'S durning workout than do protein whey and L-Glutamine post workout.



*Something is Better Than Nothing*

Ingesting something is always better than nothing.  

However, combining carbohydrates with protein produces a synergist effect.  

*2 + 2 = 5  *

That a synergistic effect.  The whole is greater than it's parts. 

Kenny Croxdale


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## troubador (Jan 10, 2013)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> Insulin is regarded as one of not the most anabolic hormone of the body.
> 
> Why would you want to shut down production of this anabolic hormone?



The question isn't whether or not to shut down insulin production. The question is whether or not to spike it with a high GI carb. From the article you posted: 





> How much insulin is needed in order for leucine?s effects on protein synthesis to be maximized?
> Leucine can maximally stimulate protein synthesis at fasting levels of insulin, and
> perhaps at slightly lower levels than this!  Therefore spiking insulin levels for the
> purpose of enhancing leucines effects on protein synthesis do not appear to be
> necessary.



Plus I already posted:
Studies have shown that increasing insulin levels above 15-30 mU/L, which is slightly above normal base levels, achieves no greater inhibition of muscle breakdown. 
http://user210805.websitewizard.com/...R-Jan-2008.pdf



> Our data suggest that insulin is not additive or synergistic to rates of MPS or MPB when CHO is coingested with a dose of protein that maximally stimulates rates of MPS.


Carbohydrate does not augment exercise-... [Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

I don't see any reason to intentionally spike insulin levels with a high GI carb rather than just consume BCAA's pwo then eat a regular meal 30-60 minutes later.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jan 10, 2013)

troubador said:


> The question isn't whether or not to shut down insulin production. The question is whether or not to spike it with a high GI carb. From the article you posted: .



Ivy and other researchs recommend a high glycemic index carbohydrate combined with a whey protein elicts the best response. 

If you did down further with the research by Volek and Wilson, you'll find that the combination of maltodectrin and dextrose provide a great one two punch.  

While both maltodextrin and dextorse have similar glycemic index ratings, their absorption is a different.  Basically, one over laps the other...one pick up where the other one leaves off. 

Plus I already posted:
Studies have shown that increasing insulin levels above 15-30 mU/L, which is slightly above normal base levels, achieves no greater inhibition of muscle breakdown. 
http://user210805.websitewizard.com/...R-Jan-2008.pdf.[/QUOTE]

Great.  Then, what is the insulin response to BCAA in mU/L?  What is the insulin response to CHO/PRO in mU/L? 



troubador said:


> I don't see any reason to intentionally spike insulin levels with a high GI carb rather than just consume BCAA's pwo then eat a regular meal 30-60 minutes later.



Great.  Then follow that protocol. 

Kenny Croxdale


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## Powermaster (Jan 11, 2013)

I agree on all points except for James Kriegers write up on insulin. If what he says is true then high protein intake would make us all fat which we know simply isn't true.


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## dave 236 (Jan 11, 2013)

Kenny Croxdale said:


> *Hydrolyzed Whey*
> 
> This is a good post workout protein.  That because it is composed of Di and Tri peptides.
> 
> ...





Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## dave 236 (Jan 11, 2013)

200*1.0=20. ?

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## Kenny Croxdale (Jan 11, 2013)

dave 236 said:


> 200*1.0=20. ?
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2



Yea, "Fuzzy Math".  

It should be .1

Kenny Croxdale


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## NaKiD EyE (Jan 11, 2013)

i use a monosaccharide and hydrolyzed whey... about the only supplement i have besides leucine.


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## Kenny Croxdale (Jan 12, 2013)

NaKiD EyE said:


> i use a monosaccharide and hydrolyzed whey... about the only supplement i have besides leucine.



*Monosaccharide = Glucose (Dextrose*

Yea, the works.  

*Dextrose*

Combining Maltodextrin and Dextrose in a Pre (before workout), Peri (during workout) and Post Workout Beverage is the equivalent of "Stacking".  "Stacking", as most here know, is a reference to the combination of two different anabolic steriods.  

*Synergistic Effect*

"Stacking" is the combination of two different "things" that produce a greater effect than one does alone. 

In plain English, 2 + 2 =5 when you "Stack" right. 

*Maltodextrin/Destrose Stack*

By combining these two simple high glycemic index carbohydrates you elicit a greater nutritional training response.

*Whey/Caseinate*

The same "Protein Stacking" effect occurs with Whey and Caseinate.  

*Whey vs. casein protein - Nutrition Express Articles*

Whey and Caseinate (like Maltodextrin/Dextrose) provide a great "One-Two Punch" similar to boxing.  

Kenny Croxdale


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