# Is PWO Spike really necessary???



## P-funk (Sep 19, 2003)

I personally don't do a post workout insulin spike but I understand the reasons that some do and I have done it in the past.  I think it is a good idea to try both ways and see wich one works best for you and which ine gives you the best results.  Now, we have heard all the reasons why spiking insulin post w/o is good and there are tons of studies out there to defend this theory.  So just to stick up for those of us that don't do the whole insulin spike thing here is some reading:

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.


So bascially my argument is this.  If there is a rapid period of glycogen resynthesis 30-60sec post workout that doesn't require the precense of insulin because the glut4 transporters are being translocated to the cell surface then why spike your levels?  I know that everyone is going to say to get the protein in that much faster and that is good but all I am saying is....is it really neccesary??  Just a thought 




(hi Jodi )


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## Jodi (Sep 19, 2003)

Nice!!

I split this thread to be sure that its not missed.  Besides it needs it own because it appears to be an important subject lately.


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## Dale Mabry (Sep 20, 2003)

It's not necessary, it's just better.  Just like it's not NECESSARY to drink good beer, it just makes the experience that more pleasurable.  

Hey, I will give anybody $100 dollars if they can figure what mode I am in.


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## Mindless (Sep 20, 2003)

and how would you go about spiking your insulin?


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## Jodi (Sep 20, 2003)

Do a search, this has been discussed in overkill.


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## naturalguy (Sep 20, 2003)

How do you define neccesary? If you want optimum results and the most bang for your buck then yes it is neccesary. Will you lose muscle and not gain if you don't do it? No. However I would rather take advantage of something that works.

It's not just about getting protein to the muscles quickly, it is also about shuttling nutrients, creatine & glutamine, into the muscle cells. The insulin spike also stops cortisol production which is trying to eat away at your muscle.

Here is the best part........there is no reason not to do it! The spike DOES NOT stop lypolysis and DOES NOT store carbs as bodyfat at this time.

This study was done on actual humans and it was humans that exercise. Like I said earlier there are very few studies done with humans AND humans that exercise. Most studies are with rats and or sedentary and obese people. Here are the highlights and the reference:

These scientists assessed the metabolic fate of carbohydrates consumed by six healthy subjecta after a period of low intensity exercise, a period of moderate intensity exercise and after inactivity. The subjects were given a meal of 150 grams or 400 grams of pasta after performing a low intensity exercise session (bike pedaling at well below 50% of VO2 max) or moderate intensity exercise (60% VO2 max). The subjects were also fed these meals after a period of inactivity. The metabolic fate of the carbohydrate meal was determined using a labeled metabolic tracer within the carbohydrate structure. Exactly where these carbohydrates ended up within the body was studied for eight hours after consumption.

1. The research shows that proper consumption of carbohydrates will enhance your muscle building and fat burning results not impede them.

2. The results demonstrated that when the subjects exercised at a moderate intensity and workload then ate a carbohydrate meal, the fat burning (oxidation) process was not inhibited. The subjects all experienced an increase in fat utilization from exercise despite consuming the carbohydrate meal.

3. When the carbohydrate meals were consumed after exercise, glucose oxidation was significantly reduced. In fact, when subjects ate the high carb meal after the moderate intensity exercise session, glucose oxidation was completely suppresed. This lack of glucose oxidation and the fact that a large positive glycogen balance was observed in these subjects indicates that carbs consumed after exercise are exclusively taken up by muscle.

4. Another important finding from this research was that after exercise, fat storage is completely suppressed. This science revealed that after exercise, the conversion of nutrients such as carbs and protein into fat is virtually impossible.

To sum it up, the vast amount of pubished research in the area of carbohydrate metabolism clearly shows that it is extremely difficult for intelligent carbohydrate consumption to interfere with the fat loss process and when carbs are consumed at the right time they enhance recovery and support the muscle growth process.

reference:

Folch N. Peronnet F, Massicotte D Dulcos M, Lavoie C, Hillaire-Marcel C. Metabolic response to small and large 13C-labeled pasta meals following rest or exercise in man. Bri J. Nutri. (5) 671-680, 2001.

This is good stuff but I didn't need a study to tell me this as everything I have learned supported this and actually doing it on myself and others have shown this to be true time and time again.


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## naturalguy (Sep 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mindless *_
> and how would you go about spiking your insulin?




You spike your insulin by taking in high glycemic carbs such as a dextrose drink or a gatorade type drink, you would only want to do this after a hard training session.


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## P-funk (Sep 20, 2003)

I have tried doing both, insulin spike or not and I can honeslty say that they both work.  However, when I don't do a spike I actually can bulk up and remain leaner.  You post is good but it is to hard to say that one is better than the other.  Carboydrate
consuption will stop lypolysis because your body can not oxidize fat in the face of an insulin spike.  All, I am saying is there are many ways to do things and it is ignorant to say that one way is the only way.  I mean really, looking at both studies posted here you have to keep in mind that there are many different things to look at (ie the person involved, goals, insulin sensitivity/resistance, etc...).  Basically all I want is to give people an option and say "here youy go, now try both and see which one works best for you".   I think both ways are effective and work well.


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## naturalguy (Sep 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by P-funk *_
> Carboydrate
> consuption will stop lypolysis because your body can not oxidize fat in the face of an insulin spike.



This is normally true but it is very different after training.

I agree that there are many ways to do things but I would want the most effecient.

I live in NY, I can get to Florida:

By walking

By bike ride

By driving

By flying

Which way will I get the most "bang for my buck", which way is the most effecient? Obviously the flying.


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## P-funk (Sep 20, 2003)

How is it very differnet after training??  I am not talking about EPOC.

Yes I understand there are more effecient ways to do things:

I am bulking....I can spike my insulin levels and get a fatter/thicker waist (like I have in the past) or I can keep my levels stable and bulk up and remain lean.....HMMM, that sounds more effecient to me.  I don't understand why you are arguing here, I am not saying either way is wrong, I am saying both ways work, you just need to see which one works best for you.


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## naturalguy (Sep 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by P-funk *_
> How is it very differnet after training??  I am not talking about EPOC.
> 
> Yes I understand there are more effecient ways to do things:
> ...




P,

     I am not arguing with you. Your insulin sensitivity is very different after training. You will not gain fat from the insulin spike when taken post workout. At any other time of the day it would be a problem but those carbs taken after the workout do not get stored as fat. Check out that study again, this was done on athletes that weight train, not sedentary people.

Have you heard of Jeff Willet and Skip Lacour? these are 2 of the most prominent natural bodybuilders (you can check their pics at ironmanmagazine.com look for Team Universe). These guys do the insulin spike BEFORE and AFTER training and they get shredded. Carbs and insulin are handled very differently from the training response, many different things are going on as a result of the training response such as cortisol, which will eat away at your muscle, the insulin spike stops this cortisol.


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## P-funk (Sep 20, 2003)

Yes ihave heard of Jeff Willet and Skip Lacour but just because they do it and are big and shredded doesn't mean that I am going to get those same results.  I am not Jeff Willet or Skip Lacour myt genetic make up is completly different.

All I am doing is giving people an alterantive choice.


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## Tha Don (Sep 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by P-funk *_
> How is it very differnet after training??  I am not talking about EPOC.
> 
> Yes I understand there are more effecient ways to do things:
> ...



so if I take PWO shake of Dextrose and Whey straight after my workout I will get a fatter waist?


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## P-funk (Sep 21, 2003)

No, not neccesarilly.  Try and see what happens.  All I am saying is that for me, my body type, my genetics, my metabolic rate, I seem to stay leaner with out the insulin spike.   You may be different.


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## Arnold (Sep 21, 2003)

I want to interject two things here:

1.) Of course a post work-out insulin spike is not _necessary_, but it can be very effective!

2.) I agree with this by *P-funk* _"I think it is a good idea to try both ways and see wich one works best for you and which one gives you the best results. "_


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## Freeman (Sep 21, 2003)

ditto


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## naturalguy (Sep 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by P-funk *_
> Yes ihave heard of Jeff Willet and Skip Lacour but just because they do it and are big and shredded doesn't mean that I am going to get those same results.  I am not Jeff Willet or Skip Lacour myt genetic make up is completly different.
> 
> All I am doing is giving people an alterantive choice.



I understand that guys like Jeff and Skip are genetically superior however that doesn't mean that we can't learn from their techniques. I have used the spike technique now religously for a year and my bodyfat has gone from 12% down to 7% and my lean mass has gone up and I am below average genetically.

You do not gain fat from this technique and the benefit to lean muscle tissue is great.


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## Jodi (Sep 22, 2003)

Some can get fat from this.  This doesn't work for everyone.  Its a good idea to try both and find what works for the individual.


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## hardasnails1973 (Sep 22, 2003)

I agree
give it 4 weeks to see which works best that way you will know the answer to your own question


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## Rob_NC (Sep 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by hardasnails1973 *_
> I agree
> give it 4 weeks to see which works best that way you will know the answer to your own question




I was just about to ask how long one should try this in order to come to a reasonable conclusion. Is 4 weeks enough?


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## Jodi (Sep 22, 2003)

4-6 weeks I think is good.

Most likely if your an ectomorph that this will probably be a good option for you.  Meso's and especially Endo's need to be careful with spiking.  Try it and if you start getting a little to much fat or your not losing fat then drop it and go with whey and oats for post workout.


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## naturalguy (Sep 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Rob_NC *_
> I was just about to ask how long one should try this in order to come to a reasonable conclusion. Is 4 weeks enough?




4 weeks is reasonable HOWEVER all your other factors must remain the same or else you won't be able to tell if it was the spike or not. In other words make sure your calories and your macronutrients must remain the same. Your training must be exactly the same. Same amount and intensity of cardio.

There are many factors that go into gaining/losing fat, you can't just pinpoint it to one. That is why when they do scientific studies that are double blind.

My personal advise is not to waste your time with the 4 weeks without it, that is 4 weeks of time that you are not optimizing the muscle growth/fat loss process but if you are that curious try it.


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## Jodi (Sep 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by naturalguy *_
> 4 weeks is reasonable HOWEVER all your other factors must remain the same or else you won't be able to tell if it was the spike or not. In other words make sure your calories and your macronutrients must remain the same. Your training must be exactly the same. Same amount and intensity of cardio.
> 
> There are many factors that go into gaining/losing fat, you can't just pinpoint it to one. That is why when they do scientific studies that are double blind.
> ...


You don't quite do you?  Pathetic, give a rest, let people make their own decisions will ya.


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## naturalguy (Sep 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> You don't quite do you?  Pathetic, give a rest, let people make their own decisions will ya.




I am letting people make their own decisions however they are entitled to know the FACTS not just your OPINIONS.


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## Jodi (Sep 22, 2003)

> My personal advise is not to waste your time with the 4 weeks without it, that is 4 weeks of time that you are not optimizing the muscle growth/fat loss process but if you are that curious try it.



Hmmm, YOUR OPINION!!



> You do not gain fat from this technique and the benefit to lean muscle tissue is great.



Not a fact - a theory!



> Here is the best part........there is no reason not to do it! The spike DOES NOT stop lypolysis and DOES NOT store carbs as bodyfat at this time.



Again, your opinion and not a fact but a theory!

*Shall I go on?*


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## naturalguy (Sep 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> Hmmm, YOUR OPINION!!
> 
> 
> ...




Jodi, go back and read the study. It doesn't get more factual than that. 

 Then go talk to the thousands of competitive bodybuilders that use this technique.


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## Jodi (Sep 22, 2003)

I read the study but its still a theory and it does not work for EVERYONE!

Drop it already will ya!!


I'm so done with this!  You don't give up and you refuse to believe anything else other than your own opinions.


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## naturalguy (Sep 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> I read the study but its still a theory and it does not work for EVERYONE!
> 
> Drop it already will ya!!
> ...



You must have had one too many low carb days, a study is not a theory, that is why they have studies to prove theories. You are much more opinionated than me, you should go back and read some of your own posts.


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## Jodi (Sep 22, 2003)

I really am trying to say this in a polite but not so polite way.  Yes, I have had a few no carb days.  IT"S PART OF BEING READY TO STEP ON STAGE IN 5 DAYS NOW ISN"T IT!!! 

Then you must also realize that Funky's study wasn't just pulled out of his ass either!!!! RIGHT!

Big difference between you and I - I don't force my opinions on people.  I offer my suggestion and don't push my opinions and theories as you so do.


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## naturalguy (Sep 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> I really am trying to say this in a polite but not so polite way.  Yes, I have had a few no carb days.  IT"S PART OF BEING READY TO STEP ON STAGE IN 5 DAYS NOW ISN"T IT!!!
> 
> Then you must also realize that Funky's study wasn't just pulled out of his ass either!!!! RIGHT!
> ...




I read P-funk's study carefully and it says NOTHING about fat gain or loss. It states that you can replace glycogen slowly just as effectively as doing it with a spike. This is very true however the spike has more advantages than just replacing glycogen quickly. It brings amino acids, creatine and glutamine quickly into muscle tissue. It stops the production of cortisol, which will eat away at your muscle.


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## Freeman (Sep 22, 2003)

hey hey hey you two..cut it out!  don't make me bitch-slap the both of you!! 

in all seriousness, I just think the best advice is what was already given...try both options for an equal amount of time..4-6 weeks should be okay like jodi said, but also like naturalguy said, must keep everything else constant just to be able to verify any added benefits of the spike.


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## Jodi (Sep 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by freeman1504 *_
> hey hey hey you two..cut it out!  don't make me bitch-slap the both of you!!
> 
> in all seriousness, I just think the best advice is what was already given...try both options for an equal amount of time..4-6 weeks should be okay like jodi said, but also like naturalguy said, must keep everything else constant just to be able to verify any added benefits of the spike.


Thanks Mark


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## Freeman (Sep 22, 2003)

You're welcome jodi..

hey, is there a way I can change my name on here from Freeman1504 to something else?  I figure there is a way, but I'm too dumb to know how.


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## Jodi (Sep 22, 2003)

PM Prince


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## Freeman (Sep 22, 2003)

ok thanks


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## Rob_NC (Sep 23, 2003)

I hate to keep beating this dead horse, but I haven't got the time to search this forum for the info I need.

What ratio P to C should be used for the PWO shake?  Does the addition of maltdextrin or dextrose make the shake overly sweet? I've had weight gainers in the past that were too sweet for me to take.


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## naturalguy (Sep 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Rob_NC *_
> I hate to keep beating this dead horse, but I haven't got the time to search this forum for the info I need.
> 
> What ratio P to C should be used for the PWO shake?  Does the addition of maltdextrin or dextrose make the shake overly sweet? I've had weight gainers in the past that were too sweet for me to take.



Generally speaking a ratio of 2:1 carbs to protein post training is what you want, so I do 24 grms. whey isolate, 50 grms. dextrose. You don't need alot of carbs 50 grms. would do the trick, I do take in a little more on leg training day as I use up more glycogen.

Maltodextrin is not as sweet as dextrose and dextrose is not as sweet as regular table sugar. If too sweet is a problem for you, then use maltodextrin.


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## Rob_NC (Sep 23, 2003)

Cool, thanks for the reply.


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## hardasnails1973 (Sep 23, 2003)

why not 50/50 mix  50 protrein 50 dextrose with added 10 grams glutemine to enhance the glycogen for legs  since it is known that 50 grams dextrose with 50 grams whey isolate is same spike as 100 mgs DEXTROSE . if you add 10 grams gltuemien you can increase the glycogen replaced by even more by not adding carbs !! kick in 500 mgs ALA and all that stuff be shutled right in  !!  just a though or whey not 25 grams dextrose with 1/2 cup oatmeal with VP2  ?  I'm using vp2 now and its a very clean protein but i cut it with all the whey isolate.  Beverly muscle provider is also compariable to ast vp2. Oh i wil be competing in eastern USAS in november


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## Freeman (Sep 23, 2003)

I have 2 scoops of whey (approx. 46g protein) and approx. 40g in carbs, either from maltodextrine or from a gatorade drink...


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## Flex (Sep 23, 2003)

what is this dextrose you guys talk of when you take your Post w.o shakes?

i'd like to try this insulin spike to see if it works for me....right now i'm drinking 1 cup skim milk, 42 grams whey, banana, ice, 5grms creatine and 5 gr glutamine. 

then about 30min after (after i shower and change etc) i eat a huge meal, tuna, rice, cottage cheese w/ fruit....

am i doing something wrong?


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## Freeman (Sep 23, 2003)

you can buy dextrose thru supplement stores or online.....I just use gatorade now, although sometimes  I buy maltodextrine...I'd skip the banana though..and even the skim milk and just use water and whey...

I'd also wait till 1 hour after your shake to have a meal...


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## hardasnails1973 (Sep 24, 2003)

for thosewho want a spike from hell.

4 rice cakes with 25 grams of dextrose 50 grams whey isolate
rice cakes are 130 on GI 
i would take 250-500 mgs ALA with this to play save

people on more conservative side
1 cup oats ground up
4 rice cakes 
500 mgs ALA  
50 grams whey isolate !!


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## ponyboy (Sep 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Freeman *_
> you can buy dextrose thru supplement stores or online.....I just use gatorade now, although sometimes  I buy maltodextrine...I'd skip the banana though..and even the skim milk and just use water and whey...
> 
> I'd also wait till 1 hour after your shake to have a meal...



Go to netrition.com...I think they sell dextrose for about $15 for a 10 lb. tub of the stuff.  Basically it's just sugar in one of its purest forms.  You can also likely find it at any bulk food store (I get mine at Bulk Barn)...either that or maltodextrin.


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## rez (Jan 16, 2004)

Just the info I was looking for with some added entertainment along the way.  

But, what is ALA and VP2?


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## rez (Jan 16, 2004)

Also, Hardasnails (or anyone of course) can you point me to some literature, a study or whatever,  on skipping the carbs and adding the Glutamine? I'd like to see it to help me decide which to try first. 

I read about glutamine, I just don't know if I want to skip carbs after I workout. I'm a newbie but so far I have mostly seen that I should have carbs. I am having both right now. I have glutamine but the pills are only 1000 mgs  I guess you have a tub of powder which is hopefully cheaper. 10 grams, I would have to take 10 pills.


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## Freeman (Jan 16, 2004)

IMO, if you want muscles to grow, don't skips carbs after a workout...


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## plouffe (Jan 16, 2004)

Will PWO spikes affect other "non-worked" muscles? * In a good way.


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## plouffe (Jan 16, 2004)

What about Sween 'n Low. Has dextrose in it, and my mom uses the shit. I still actually put it creatine/PWO shakes... But is it as effictive as i think?


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## plouffe (Jan 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Flex *_
> what is this dextrose you guys talk of when you take your Post w.o shakes?
> 
> i'd like to try this insulin spike to see if it works for me....right now i'm drinking 1 cup skim milk, 42 grams whey, banana, ice, 5grms creatine and 5 gr glutamine.
> ...



Well I believe the idea is to throw in some carbs that are high on the GI. To "spike" your blood sugar, inwhich delievers nutrients/protein/etc. To your muscles. So what I would suggest is through some dextrose in your PWO shake. I also through in oats so my insulin levels don't just drop off ya know?


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## OmarJackson (Jan 17, 2004)

just thought i would chime in on the subject.

I think that insulin spiking PWO is a very worthwhile practice. I would reccommend it to anyone, bulking or cutting, except for obese people. I usually use about 40g whey and then 40g dextrose postworkout. I've heard that the general rule for how many carbs you need PWO is bodyweight/10 x 5 while bulking and half of that while cutting. half the carbs should come from dextrose and half from maltodextrine.

here's where you can get some
http://www.1fast400.com/?cPath=84


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## Big Smoothy (Jan 23, 2004)

I'm a rookie so please be gentle.

After a hard WO I eat a heaping plate of white steamed rice to get my carbs.  Rice is about 79 on the GI, right?

I get my protein from Tuna (33 grams)
one egg, including the yoke (6-7 grams)
one slice of pork (? maybe 10 grams of protein).

Am I doing this right?  How can I improve.  
I don't have access to any protein powders or Glutamine.


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## Freeman (Jan 23, 2004)

Is all that post WO?  I think it's okay, especially the white rice..you can have a baked potato here too...

however, with the other stuff, you want your protein to get immediately absorbed into the muscles.  With all this protein coming from meat sources and being taken in with fat, the absorption might be slowed and therefore, less effective...I konw many people that do not take in whey protein drinks immediately post WO, however most people do and I would suggest giving it a shot when you can.  l


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## donescobar2000 (Jan 23, 2004)

Out of experience I noticed that without a spike I did not notice any changes in my body.  Now that I have included the spike I still have a 34 waste and my back is getting much wider along with my chest.  In my opinion a spike is good even while cutting.  Except the spike should be smaller.  Oats and whey do not do justice to me.  Just my 2 cents.


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## Arnold (Jan 23, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Mr_Snafu *_
> I'm a rookie so please be gentle.
> 
> After a hard WO I eat a heaping plate of white steamed rice to get my carbs.  Rice is about 79 on the GI, right?
> ...



If you're talking about post work-out...if you do not have access to a protein powder like whey then I would suggest eating egg whites post work-out (around 8-10), no yolk or meat.


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## thrandui1 (Apr 14, 2004)

Lots of mentions of dextrose and maltodextrin in this thread.

But what about fructose?  For example, what about using real orange juice with the whey shake, (and/or a banana or other fruit as someone said he did)?

(I remember hearing or reading that fruit did not go well with muscle growth, but I never saw any convincing argument for that.  And I tend to eat 5 or 6 portions of fruit every day, anyway...)


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## Jodi (Apr 14, 2004)

Fructose refills liver glycogen.  PWO you need muscle glycogen filled.  I prefer oats over malto or dextrose.


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## sara (Apr 14, 2004)

Oats for pre-workout and wheat crackers with shake for Post workout... how does that sound?


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## aztecwolf (Apr 14, 2004)

i like oats and a banana pwo, i just love the tast of it i get about 35 grams of protein and 80 grams carbs pwo, then about an hour later i get another 35 grams protein from chicken or tuna and 75-80 grams carbs from some rice, rice/beans, rice/corn, pasta, i just can't see myself being healthy and consuming mass amounts of pure sugar no matter when i take it in


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## sara (Apr 14, 2004)

what you have as a pre-workout?


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## aztecwolf (Apr 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by thrandui1 *_
> Lots of mentions of dextrose and maltodextrin in this thread.
> 
> But what about fructose?  For example, what about using real orange juice with the whey shake, (and/or a banana or other fruit as someone said he did)?
> ...


i say eat the fruit, its tasty, its better then snacking on some ice cream or something, it fills you up and it is full of nutrients


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## tyrone_40 (May 21, 2004)

Hi,

Since a glass of fruit punch juice will not do as it contains Fructose, I was wondering that since we get glucose in powder form here out of which u can make a glass of glucose, Is it ok to mix the whey with this drink for post workout.  I dont think we have maltodextrine or dextose available here.  Confused after reading this long discussion


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## Jodi (May 21, 2004)

I think this thread needs to be split.  

Powdered gatorade is dextrose if that helps any.


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## Rob_NC (May 21, 2004)

All I know is, after using dextrose for a PWO spike during my last bulk, I'll never do it again.  I gained soooo much fat it isn't funny.


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## aztecwolf (May 21, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Jodi *_
> I think this thread needs to be split.
> 
> Powdered gatorade is dextrose if that helps any.


are there any other powder drinks, such as koolaid that could work?


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## aztecwolf (May 21, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Rob_NC *_
> All I know is, after using dextrose for a PWO spike during my last bulk, I'll never do it again.  I gained soooo much fat it isn't funny.


what kind of body type do you have, do you gain and lose weight easily?


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## tyrone_40 (May 27, 2004)

How many tablespoons of powdered gatorade do you guys use with your whey???


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## Jodi (May 27, 2004)

I don't use it but my boyfriend does and he uses 3 Tablespoons.


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## tyrone_40 (May 27, 2004)

Thanks Jodi, I use about 3 tbsps also.  Hope I dont end up a diabetic


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## aflexaholic (Sep 7, 2004)

Im going to have to go with Natural guy on this one, but everybody does have a choice to their own physique needs. Maybe instead of eliminating entirely (for those that did) try reducing it. I know depending upon the situation i use anything from 50-100 grams. Now if your a diabetic then maybe alterior muscle growth options should be evaluated. I just am a firm believer in post workout recovery and i would never have my clients without it (again, except for diabetics)Ps. and if you are not using dextrose or sugar then please use a complex carbs at least. just do it for me lol.


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## nikegurl (Sep 7, 2004)

i've never tried pwo spike.  i did buy dextrose with the intention to see how i do but i chickened out b/c it seems like i'm forever trying to lose fat.

i want to try now.  not just oats pw but a fast absorbing carb.  if i gain fat or can't lose it as well - i'll have my answer for me.  

i have a couple of questions

1)  if dextrose is well sealed and properly stored is it fine to use after having it for a year?

2)  would banana in the pw shake work...sounds like the dextrose is a better option but i'm asking anyway b/c the banana is yummy


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## aflexaholic (Sep 7, 2004)

1. it should be fine.

2. funny you should ask that about the bannanas. I just put my client whos trying to gain size on a dextrose/banana combo. heres his post workout drink

3 scoops of nitron x
1/2 scoop wpi by bioplex
2 large bananas

that comes to 60 grams of protein and 100 grams of carbs.


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## BulkMeUp (Sep 7, 2004)

Correct if i am wrong, but arent sugars from fruit sources (fructose) not recommended in a post wo shake? The reason that i have been told is that it tends to work more with liver glycogen(or is it insulin) than muscle glycogen that tends to increase/get stored as fat, granted that post wo the possibility is reduced??


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## nikegurl (Sep 7, 2004)

BulkMeUp said:
			
		

> Correct if i am wrong, but arent sugars from fruit sources (fructose) not recommended in a post wo shake? The reason that i have been told is that it tends to work more with liver glycogen(or is it insulin) than muscle glycogen that tends to increase/get stored as fat, granted that post wo the possibility is reduced??



that's what i've always heard but i don't have any first hand experience with it.  i WANT a banana but i don't think a banana gets the job done (replenishing muscle glycogen) the way you want in pwo shake.


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## LAM (Sep 7, 2004)

BulkMeUp said:
			
		

> Correct if i am wrong, but arent sugars from fruit sources (fructose) not recommended in a post wo shake? The reason that i have been told is that it tends to work more with liver glycogen(or is it insulin) than muscle glycogen that tends to increase/get stored as fat, granted that post wo the possibility is reduced??



correct...fructose uses a non-insulin dependant pathway for metabolization so it does not increase serum glucose levels or cause a increase in serum insulin levels.

banana's can be use to help spike insulin PWO if they are very, very ripe.  the sugars in banana's change from starches to glucose based the more ripe they get...of course using dextrose or maltodextrin is the best way to spike insulin


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## BulkMeUp (Sep 7, 2004)

LAM said:
			
		

> of course using dextrose or maltodextrin is the best way to spike insulin


Thats what i had been advised. Thanks for the clarification, LAM.


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## nikegurl (Sep 7, 2004)

ok...so much for finding a way to justify eating bananas while trying to drop a little more bodyfat.   

i may still fiddle w/40 grams carbs from dextrose pwo.  if i give that a shot for a time - will i still need to eat a slow burning complex carb such as oats after that or can i have the dextrose in my pwo shake and consider my carb bases "covered" as far as pwo nutrition goes?


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## LAM (Sep 7, 2004)

sometimes I use oats, 1/2 banana (for taste) and dextrose or maltodextrin in my PWO shake.  I have tried just about every combination.  the best one I think is Syntrax Roadside Lemonaide with dextrose, that shit taste soooooo good !!!!


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## nikegurl (Sep 7, 2004)

interestingly enough - i have Roadside lemonade and dextrose already sitting at home.  i'll try that for sure.

the oats + banana + dextrose in the shake sounds good but I think i should be keeping my carbs to around 40-50 grams for pwo (i'm still trying to drop fat) and i'm not sure if i can do it using all 3.  (but i'm open to suggestions on amts of each one...maybe i need less dextrose than i think?)

thanks LAM!  in all honesty i have my doubts whether i personally can tolerate it w/out porking out....but i want to know for sure instead of guessing.  (that and i picked up a chris aceto book from the shelf this weekend and it started me wondering...)


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## LAM (Sep 7, 2004)

for 40-50 grams of carbs you coud do 1/3 cup of oats, 1/2 banana and a couple of tablespoons of dextrose...something like that


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## aztecwolf (Sep 7, 2004)

i take one scoop of vanilla protein powder with 1 scoop of gatorade mix(right now i am using orange flavor, makes it taste like a 50/50 bar) I usually consume this right before i start my last few reps, then immediately after i get done i eat a bowl of cream of wheat with a banana, and a protein shake with 1 scoop of chocolate, then about 45-60 minutes later i eat a solid carb/protein meal


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## BulkMeUp (Sep 8, 2004)

LAM said:
			
		

> for 40-50 grams of carbs you coud do 1/3 cup of oats, 1/2 banana and a couple of tablespoons of dextrose...something like that


Isnt there a suggested ratio of carbs to protein to optimise the pwo shake spike? Something like 50-50 pro-carbs. with the 50% carbs suggested to be 25%dextrose and 25%maltodextrin?

Personally i use 1scoop pro (25g pro) + 2tbsp detrose. Cant seem to find the malto in any of the gym/health stores.


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## LAM (Sep 8, 2004)

the ratio is 3:1 carbs to protein, however for most people I think it's simply way to many carbohydrates.


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## BulkMeUp (Sep 8, 2004)

LAM said:
			
		

> the ratio is 3:1 carbs to protein, however for most people I think it's simply way to many carbohydrates.


I always thought the 50-50 (1:1)ratio itself was a bit much, but then thats just me.


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## IONOR (Nov 1, 2004)

The most optimal shake should contain a 2 to 1 mix of Carbs  and Protein (double Carbs to Protien). Your also best having a simple carb in the form of Dextrose and a slightly more complex carb in the form of Maltodextrin in a 50/50 ratio.
Bannanas are not the most optimal chioce PWO as they will replenish liver glycogen and glucose stores but not muscles stores. Also Oats are a complex carb which are also slow burning which will miss the mark completly as far as getting your PWO shake digested in the optimal time (30 minutes prior to finishing your workout).You also don't want a whole food meal PWO as this would take far to long to get into your blood stream (about 2 hours) leaving you catabollic for far to long.


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## IONOR (Nov 1, 2004)

P-funk said:
			
		

> How is it very differnet after training?? I am not talking about EPOC.
> 
> Yes I understand there are more effecient ways to do things:
> 
> I am bulking....I can spike my insulin levels and get a fatter/thicker waist (like I have in the past) or I can keep my levels stable and bulk up and remain lean.....HMMM, that sounds more effecient to me. I don't understand why you are arguing here, I am not saying either way is wrong, I am saying both ways work, you just need to see which one works best for you.


There have been studies done into this subject and scientists came to the conclusion that the best way to consume oyu shake was over the next 45 minute to 1 hour period straight after your trainning.
Let me explain!
It is vitally important to restrict the rate at which we consume our PWO shake (for those of us that store fat easier at least).Even athough our bodys can administer nutrients more effectively at this time more so than any other time it is still very possible to overload our bodys capacity to digest.Which has been proven to be one of the leading causes of exess fat storage during a bulking stage.
Our goal is to get a steady flow of nutrients during our PWO time.An overproduction of Insulin resulting in an overly rapid consumption of simple carbs is the reason for a lot of the typical bulking stage fat.
As you consume your PWO shake contemplate your energy levels over the next hour period. It's the utmost significance that your energy levels do not go down at all during this period.
If they do that means this flow of nutrients has been disturbed. Two things can offset this flow.
1) Your blood glucose levles are dropping,meaning you aren't getting enough nutrients when your body needs them.
2) However science is saying that its more likely that your blood glucose levels rose too quickly! As a result of this your body secrets an overload of Insulin to get rid of the blood glucose. What happens as a result of this overload? Some of it will go to start Protien synthesis, but most of it gets converted to fat. Remember exxess glucose goes to fat.
To make matters worse your blood glucose levels begin to drop and your back in a catabollic condition. So not only are you catabollic again but you gain fat.THATS THE VERY OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE WANT!!!!
To protect against either of the above scienarios consume your shake at a slower rate. Your PWO meal should be taken over the course of a 45 to 60 minute period.
The cushioning effect will ensure a better processing job of the nutrients consumed.As a general rule of thumb consume half of your shake immeditely and sip on the rest over the next 45 minute to one hour time frame. 
This obviously only applies if you are choising to spike insulin PWO.


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## ChrisROCK (Nov 23, 2004)

man, i'm thouroughly confused now...   Is a bottle of gatorade sufficient PWO to spike insulin?


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## P-funk (Feb 24, 2005)

bump for the peeps in premier's journal


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## thatguy (Feb 24, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> bump for the peeps in premier's journal


Thanks, brah.


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## P-funk (Feb 24, 2005)

more to the story (on fructose)........



by Lyle McDonald

As with so many other aspects of nutrition, especially bodybuilding and sports nutrition, beliefs about the sugar fructose (more commonly known as fruit sugar) vary widely. On the one hand, because of its low glycemic index (GI) and general lack of insulin response, many people consider fructose an ideal sugar, that should be used to replace other sugars especially for diabetics (1). There is also some indication that fructose may blunt appetite and affect food choice (2,3). Finally, because of the low insulin response, it's been suggested that fructose before or during exercise might allow increased fat utilization during exercise, while still maintaining blood glucose levels (4).

At the other end of the spectrum, because of differences in its metabolism compared to other sugars, and the known effect of fructose on blood triglyceride (fat) levels, many nutritional authorities (most notably John Parillo) consider fructose and fruit a sort of nutritional satan that will only make you fat and that should be eliminated from the diets of bodybuilders (for example, see web article reference 4a).

Along similar lines, Dan Duchaine, in his book "Bodyopus" stated that removing fruit at the end of a diet increased fat loss. Because of some of the known metabolic effects of excess fructose consumption (discussed below) including increased blood triglyceride levels, increased uric acid and even impaired copper absorption (3,5). There is also some in vitro indication that fructose may increase protein cross linking, which is associated with a number of different potential negative health issues (6).

Because of the varying data on fructose,there is a considerable amount of debate regarding the effects of fructose on public health even outside of the bodybuilding nutrition arena (7). So what is the truth about fructose? Is it an ideal sugar that should be used freely, or a nutritional evil that should be avoided? As is usually the case, the answer is somewhere in the middle of the two extremes and the goal of this article will be to set the record straight regarding fructose. We'll start by looking briefly at fructose absorption and metabolism before addressing the metabolic effects on the body. back to top

What Is Fructose, How Much Do We Get and
Where Is It Found In the Diet?

Fructose is one of three monosaccharides (single sugar molecules, the other two are glucose and galactose) that occurs naturally in foods. Sucrose (table sugar, a disaccharide) is also 1/2 fructose. However, free fructose only occurs naturally in a few foods, notably some fruits (hence its common name of 'fruit sugar') and honey with the majority of our dietary fructose coming from the ingestion of sucrose. Fructose is also found in small amounts in a few vegetables.

In recent years, the amount of fructose being consumed has increased significantly. One large scale analysis puts average daily amounts in the range of 90-100 grams (8) which is a significant increase over the last 2 decades. This increase has been caused not only by an overall increase in the consumption of sugars, but also because of increased use of high fructose corn syrup (HFS). HFS contains can contain 42% or 55% free fructose, with the remainder being glucose. So, on top of an overall increase in fructose consumption, the use of HFS has caused a significant increase in the consumption of free fructose (8,9).

Additionally, many health-food stores also sell crystalline fructose powder as a sweetener and both crystalline fructose and HFS are used in many commercially produced food products (10). back to top

Fructose Digestion and Metabolism

During digestion in the stomach and small intestines, all dietary carbohydrates are eventually broken down to the monosaccharides glucose, fructose and galactose (found in milk in lactose). These are absorbed via specific transporters in the small intestine, bringing them into the portal vein, next stop the liver.

While the small intestine seems to have an essentially unlimited (estimated around 5000 grams per day) capacity to absorb glucose and galactose, the absorption of fructose is a very different story. The consumption of as little as 35-50 grams of free fructose at once causes gastric upset, gas, bloating and diarrhea in a majority (60% or more) of people (11). However, the addition of glucose to the free fructose prevents the problem. And the ingestion of large amounts of sucrose (again, 1/2 fructose, 1/2 glucose) causes no such problem. It thus appears that our guts have evolved to absorb fructose only in the presence of other sugars and that large amounts of free fructose in the diet are non-physiological for humans. Since HFS also contains a significant amount of glucose, the malabsorption issue may not be a huge one for most processed foods. However, anyone considering using crystalline fructose as a sweetener should consider the potential problems with large amounts of free fructose. I should also mention that some individuals suffer from a hereditary fructose malabsorption syndrome (12), but this is typically identified at a very young age. Fructose free diets can be developed for these individuals.

After digestion, fructose goes to the liver like all sugars, which is where the bulk of its metabolism occurs. This is also where fructose metabolism differs significantly from glucose metabolism, and is the source of much of the debate over the relative 'goodness' of fructose. back to top

Liver Metabolism of Sugars

Although they share many intermediate steps in their metabolism, dietary glucose and fructose follow two distinct pathways in the liver. In fact, it has been known for quite some time that most dietary glucose goes straight through the liver with only minimal metabolism (13) while the majority of fructose is metabolized in the liver (14).

This is part of the reason for the low glycemic index (GI) of fructose. Since it is metabolized almost exclusively in the liver, it has only a very small effect on blood glucose levels. Additionally, and also unlike glucose, the uptake of fructose into liver cells doesn't require insulin. Hence there is no need for the body to secrete insulin in response to dietary fructose ingestion. This is the basis for the claims that fructose is a superior carbohydrate source compared to glucose or sucrose (which recall is half glucose), especially for diabetics (1) who have poor control over blood glucose and insulin levels.

At the same time, because of its extensive metabolism, and the pathways that it follows, in the liver, fructose can have negative effects on the overall metabolism of the body. So first let's compare and contrast the metabolism of glucose and fructose in the liver, and then look at some of the potential negatives of fructose (especially excess fructose) intake.

Figure 1 gives a partial overview comparing glucose and fructose metabolism. I want to note a few things. First, I left out the majority of enzymes that are involved in the various metabolic pathways (see ref 2 or any good biochemistry book for the full pathways and enzymes). Most of that was to make the graphic a little less busy, part of it was because it just wasn't that important in the overall scheme of things. The enzymes I did include are the ones in boxes, since they are the key enzymes we need to focus on. back to top

Figure 1


As you can see from the graphic, the number of different paths that fructose can take in the liver are much more complex than glucose. Let's look at glucose first. In short, glucose can either be stored as glycogen, by being phosphorylated to glucose-6-P first, or go straight to blood glucose. Under most conditions, the majority of dietary glucose leaves the bloodstream immediately to enter the bloodstream.

Fructose on the other hand, follows an entirely different set of pathways and I want to look at some of the steps now. First and foremost, note that the phosphorylation of fructose occurs via a different enzyme (fructokinase) than that of glucose (glucokinase). I should also mention that fructokinase is essentially found only in the liver which simply means that muscle is unable to utilize fructose for the most part. You might as well think of fructose as 'liver food' for lack of a better way of looking at it.

In fact, all fructose entering the liver must be phosphorylated first which leads to one of the potential problems with excess fructose ingestion. In large amounts, and usually with infusion, fructose does two things. First, it depletes the liver of ATP (which is broken down to ADP to provide the P for that step), which can limit the liver's ability to perform other metabolic functions such as the uptake and conversion of T4 to T3 (15).

At the same time (biochemical steps not shown), the breakdown of ATP and subsequent depletion of cellular phosphate can lead to the production of a waste product called uric acid, which must then be excreted. Excess uric acid can cause gout in sensitive individuals and large infusions of fructose have been shown to deplete liver ATP, increase uric acid production, and cause symptoms of gout in some people (3).

Once phosphorylated, fructose-1-P is then broken down to the two breakdown products shown. I should mention that the fructose malabsorption syndrome mentioned above is caused by a lack of the Aldolase B enzyme (12). These are called triose sugars, which can go into a number of different pathways. The topmost pathway shows DHAP and glyceraldehade 3-P reconverting to fructose 1-6-bis-P, then up to liver glycogen via the same pathway that glucose would have followed.

Alternately, glyceraldehyde 3-P can be converted to pyruvate which can be converted to lactate (a waste product), or be further broken down to Acetyl-CoA. Acetyl Co-A is sort of a metabolic middleman produced from the breakdown of carbohydrates, fats and protein. You may note how non-esterified fatty acids, just a fancy name for fatty acids, can be broken down to Acetyl-CoA as well.

What pathways Acetyl-CoA follows will depend on the overall metabolic state of the liver. If the liver is in the 'fed' state (meaning that liver glycogen is fairly full), acetyl-CoA can go through de novo lipogenesis (DNL, the pathway to the left) to acyl glycerols and combined with cholesterol to produce very low density lipoprotein triglycerides. This is the pathway that anti-fructose individuals such as John Parillo have focused on. If the liver is in the 'fasted' state (meaning that liver glycogen is depleted), acetyl-CoA can be used for energy, producing Co2, or be used to produce ketone bodies.

Now, the key aspect that individuals such as Parillo have focused on is the fact that fructose enters the various metabolic pathways without being regulated by phosphofructokinase (PFK). The issue is that PFK is highly regulated and normally acts to control how much glucose can go into the other pathways that fructose can enter more readily. Thus, he is correct in stating that fructose has a much higher *tendency* to be converted to fat than glucose.

That is, while DNL from glucose is thought to be of minimal importance under all but the most extreme (700-900 grams per day for 5 days) carbohydrate overfeeding (16,17), overfeeding fructose has a much higher tendency to promote VLDL triglyceride formation. This is not only important from the aspect of bodyfat and appearance but increased VLDL levels in the bloodstream are a known independent risk factor for cardiac disease. Thus, increases in VLDL from fructose feedings could have potential health risks outside of increasing bodyfat storage. back to top

But Just How Much Are We Talking About?

A cursory examination of the research into fructose feedings in terms of the production of metabolites such as lactate, uric acid and especially VLDL triglycerides has shown distinctly varying results. For example, while some research has clearly shown an increase in VLDL triglyceride levels with fructose feedings (18-23), other research has not (24-28). Why the discrepancy?

As with so many aspects of nutrition, it really comes down to two things: how much fructose they gave, and what population they gave it to. Let's get the population dynamic out of the way first. Studies have examined the effects of fructose in essentially 4 different groups: individuals with normal insulin and triglyceride levels, individuals with normal insulin but high triglyceride levels, individuals with high insulin and normal triglyceride levels, and people with high insulin and triglyceride levels. Different groups show a different susceptibility to the negative effects of fructose (and that still has to take amount into account).

Overall, the last group, those with high insulin and high triglyceride levels tends to be the most sensitive to the negative effects of fructose in terms of increasing VLDL triglyceride levels (3). The other three groups show a distinctly less pronounced effect. This makes some sense as such individuals would normally have skewed physiology to begin with. I should point out that hyperinsulinemic/hypertriglyceridemic folks aren't very indicative of the average lean athlete consuming a healthy bodybuilding/sports oriented diet.

But that brings us back to dose. Even in otherwise healthy individuals, fructose has been found to increase VLDL triglyceride levels so the potential for fat synthesis from fructose is apparently there. Again, looking at the studies as a whole, both negative and positive results are typically found. It's when you start looking at the amounts given, that a pattern starts to develop. First, a select group of studies has used absurd and non-physiological amounts of fructose (200-500 grams per day, more than any human is probably capable of consuming under all but the most forced conditions) and invariably found increased triglyceride levels. Keep in mind that the average American diet only contains about 30-40 grams of fructose per day so we can pretty safely ignore those studies.

Looking at the other studies which gave more reasonable amounts of fructose, as a recent review has done (29), we see a fairly standard pattern: at reasonable amounts of fructose (30-60 grams per day depending on the study), there is no negative effect on VLDL or triglyceride levels. At amounts higher than that (in the range of 80-90+ grams per day), there tend to be an increase in VLDL and triglyceride levels suggesting fat synthesis. This would tend to suggest a distinct cutoff point somewhere between those two values as an approximate maximum of fructose that can be consumed without causing significant triglyceride synthesis.

In contrast, one study comparing 75 grams of fructose to 75 grams of glucose, found that, over 4 hours of study, while there was a small amount of de novo lipogenesis from the fructose, the net effect was that the body burned more fat than it produced (30). The fructose group also showed a higher thermic effect (meaning more calories were wasted as heat), most likely because of the high amount of metabolic processing that went on. However, and perhaps more importantly, despite very little fat synthesis in the fructose group, there was less fat burning in that same group. This occurred with an increased burning of carbohydrate in the fructose group.

So it may be that, while fructose at moderate (<50 g/day or so) amounts doesn't increase fat synthesis per se significantly, it may slow fat loss by decreasing fat burning in the liver. That is, to a degree, the end result may be the same: whether the fructose is causing more fat synthesis, or less fat burning, the net effect on fat loss (which is determined by fat burning - fat intake) may be similar.

In contrast, in a study of obese individuals given either high fructose or high glucose feedings prior to exercise, researchers found no difference in fat burning after the workout when the groups were dieting. The same study found that there was significantly less fat burned after exercise when the groups were not restricting calories (31). Of course, there are metabolic differences between obese individuals and very lean bodybuilders so you have to be careful extrapolating from these studies.

As I mentioned above, the metabolic fate of fructose appears to depend on the metabolic state of the liver and the dieter. In the fasted state (as occurs while dieting), fructose will be used for energy and fat synthesis will be negligible, if it occurs at all. Fat burning may be decreased however. In the fed state (as occurs when not dieting), excess fructose can be converted to VLDL TG, increasing heart disease risk and bodyfat.

Fructose Feeding and Exercise Performance

Finishing up, I want to touch on the idea of fructose feeding during exercise. To my knowledge, no studies have examined the consumption of different types of carbohydrates prior to weight training, and all of the research done to date has been in endurance athletes. From a theoretical standpoint (including the low GI/insulin response), there are some good reasons to think that fructose feedings might be superior to glucose during endurance exercise. However, the research to date has not supported the theory. Fructose feeding before or during has been found to be either no better, or in fact worse in terms of performance of endurance exercise (3). As well, there is the issue of gastric upset with high amounts of fructose that limits how much can be given in the first place.

As a final comment, there is the issue of post-workout carbohydrate and recovery. At this point, it should be no surprise to readers that the post-workout consumption of carbs and protein improves recovery, performance and protein synthesis (32,33). Studies examining different types of carbohydrate intake post workout have invariably found that glucose and glucose polymers refill muscle glycogen ideally, while fructose preferentially refills liver glycogen. In that refilling liver glycogen can be important from the standpoint of overall recovery and growth (the details are outside of the scope of this article), consuming a small amount of fructose (10% of the total carbohydrate content or roughly 10-20 grams) in the post-workout shake may be beneficial. But the majority of carbohydrates consumed should come from glucose and glucose polymers. back to top

Summing Up and Practical Recommendations

Ok, an article like this wouldn't be worth much without some actual recommendations and real world application. First and foremost, it should be clear that in large enough amounts, fructose can certainly be detrimental both to health, by raising VLDL cholesterol and triglycerides and possibly to bodyfat levels for the same reason. However, at moderate intakes of fructose, in the range of 50-60 grams per day, fructose appears to pose little problem and certainly is not going to make or break a diet.

For an athlete to avoid all sources of fructose, especially fruit, seems a bit silly and extreme (see below regarding pre-contest bodybuilding prep for a possible exception). However, there is probably a good reason to avoid high fructose corn syrup as much as is reasonably possible. Readers should realize that many sports food companies are using fructose and HFS in their products, so it's possible that athletes are being exposed to larger than normal amounts of fructose in their diets. Athletes and bodybuilders are encouraged to become avid label readers to see if HFS is listed as a primary ingredient.

Individuals who are hyperinsulinemic or have high triglycerides to begin with may question whether using fructose in large amounts is beneficial and should consult with their doctor before making major nutritional changes. The majority of athletes, bodybuilders and otherwise healthy individuals are unlikely to have problems with either hyperinsulinemia or hypertriglyceridemia although it is a possibility.

So, back to the ~50 g/day value. Noting that the average American diet may contain at least double that already, we might assume that athletes shouldn't be adding more fructose or fruit to their diet. But, we really have to ask whether or not that applies to bodybuilders and athletes, who typically avoid the commercial foods which most commonly containing fructose (meaning those containing high fructose corn syrup).

Most bodybuilders and other athletes already avoid the majority of such foods and I would expect that their daily fructose intake is somewhat below the American average. Once again, note that many commercial products aimed at athletes, such as food bars and even some meal replacement powders, are increasing their use of fructose and HFS as a sweetener so it is possible that athletes are getting more fructose or HFS than they're aware of. How much is up to debate and speculation.

So let's address the important question: What about fruit? Can it be part of a healthy bodybuilding/athletic diet, or should it be avoided as Parillo claims? To answer this we really need to look at the amount of fructose found in typical fruits.

On average, fruits such as cherries, pears, bananas, grapes and apples contain anywhere from 5 to 7 grams of fructose in an average sized piece of fruit. Fruits such as strawberries, blueberries, oranges and grapefruit contain 2-3 grams of fructose per 100 gram serving. Honey is an exception, containing 40 grams of fructose per 100 gram serving, but its extreme sweetness would make eating a lot of it difficult. The point being that fruit is actually not a very large source of fructose in the first place. To get 50 grams of fructose per day from fruit alone would require an intake of approximately 10 pieces per day, far more than all but the most extreme intake would provide.

So we come back to Parillo's frequent story about the bodybuilder at 4% bodyfat who gains fat by replacing rice with bananas, his supposed real-world 'proof' that fruit makes you fat. Well, first we have to ask how relevant an example (male at 4% bodyfat) is to the majority of athletes and bodybuilders. That is, while it may be worthwhile to exclude sources of fructose at the end of a pre-contest diet(as Dan Duchaine suggested in "Bodyopus") because of decreases in fat burning, that hardly applies to the majority of athletes under most circumstances.

Secondly, there is the example of bananas, a fruit which is very high on the Glycemic Index and contains far more glucose than anything else. 300 calories of bananas is approximately 3 medium bananas which would contain 15-21 grams of fructose far below the level needed to promote fat synthesis. While Parillo conveniently blames the lipogenic effect of the rice/banana switch on fructose, it's more likely that the other sugars present, and the insulin spike from such a high GI food were to blame.

So, summing up, like most aspects of bodybuilding and athletic nutrition, there are few absolutes. While there is no doubt that large amounts of fructose are both non-physiological and potentially harmful, it certainly appears that low to moderate amounts of fructose, and yes fruit, can be included in a bodybuilding or athletic diet. From the standpoint of liver glycogen and maintaining an anabolic state, small amounts of fructose probably should be included in the diet. Considering the other nutrients (fiber, vitamins and minerals) present in fruit, it seems silly to exclude them from the diet based on the rather small amount of fructose present. back to top

References cited:

1. Gerrits, PE and Tsalikian, E. Diabetes and fructose metabolism. Am J Clin Nutr (1993) 58 (suppl): 796s-799s.

2. Moyer, AE and Rodin, J. Fructose and behavior: does fructose influence food intake and macronutrient selection. Am J Clin Nutr (1993) 58 (suppl): 810s-814s.

3. Henry, RR and Crapo, PA. Current issues in fructose metabolism. Ann Rev Nutr (1991) 11: 21-39.

4. Craig, BW. The influence of fructose feeding on physical performance. Am J Clin Nutr (1993) 58 (suppl): 815s-819s.

4a. Web article at: http://www.parrillo.com/sng/tsb_det...946114869&id=45

5. O'Dell, BL. Fructose and mineral metabolism. Am J Clin Nutr (1993) 58: 771s-778s.

6. Dills, Jr. WL. Protein fructosylation: fructose and the Maillard reaction. Am J Clin Nutr (1993) 58 (suppl): 779s-787s.

7. Glinsmann WH and Bowman, BA. The public health significant of dietary fructose. Am J Clin Nutr (1993) 58 (suppl): 820s-823s.

8. http://www.ers.usda.gov:80/publicat...B965/sb965h.pdf Table 2.

9. Vuilleumier, S. Worldwide production of high-fructose syrup and crystalline fructose. Am J Clin Nutr (1993) 58 (suppl): 733s-736s.

10. Hanover, ML and White, JS. Manufacturing, composition, and applications of fructose. Am J Clin Nutr (1993) 58 (suppl): 724s-732s.

11. Riby, JE et. al. Fructose absorption. Am J Clin Nutr (1993) 58 (suppl): 748s-753s.

12. Ali, M, et. al. Heriditary Fructose Intolerance. J Med Genet (1998) 35:353-365.

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## Brolly (Mar 1, 2005)

Anywaysss children  ... was just wonderin.. insulin spikes in the morning when u wake up.. good idea? i dunno i just read in an article that its ok to do this since ur body wont store fat at this time?


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## Yanick (Mar 1, 2005)

Brolly said:
			
		

> Anywaysss children  ... was just wonderin.. insulin spikes in the morning when u wake up.. good idea? i dunno i just read in an article that its ok to do this since ur body wont store fat at this time?



there is no single _time_ that your body stores fat. 24h calorie balance is what determines if your body will store/burn fat/muscle. You can have all the insulin you want but if your 1000 kcal hypocaloric you won't gain an ounce of fat. That being said, its my general opinion that insulin control is most important when you are bulking, so i would say in no to the morning thing however there are lots of people (on this board, for instance, LAM a big/strong/respected guy) that do it and swear by it. In the end, you need to see for yourself.


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## tucker01 (Feb 21, 2008)

Bump.

And some more fun to read.


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## Hudsoy (Jul 15, 2010)

P-funk said:


> I have tried doing both, insulin spike or not and I can honeslty say that they both work.  However, when I don't do a spike I actually can bulk up and remain leaner.  You post is good but it is to hard to say that one is better than the other.  Carboydrate
> consuption will stop lypolysis because your body can not oxidize fat in the face of an insulin spike.  All, I am saying is there are many ways to do things and it is ignorant to say that one way is the only way.  I mean really, looking at both studies posted here you have to keep in mind that there are many different things to look at (ie the person involved, goals, insulin sensitivity/resistance, etc...).  Basically all I want is to give people an option and say "here youy go, now try both and see which one works best for you".   I think both ways are effective and work well.




I heard whey spikes ya insulin.
just read it somewhere.


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## drameD (Jul 19, 2010)

what if you feast on 100g carbs all oatmeal before workout.  would you need an insulin spike even if the oatmeal is probably still digesting and releasing glucose slowly


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## leg_press (Jul 20, 2010)

P-funk said:


> I have tried doing both, insulin spike or not and I can honeslty say that they both work.  However, when I don't do a spike I actually can bulk up and remain leaner.  You post is good but it is to hard to say that one is better than the other.  Carboydrate
> consuption will stop lypolysis because your body can not oxidize fat in the face of an insulin spike.  All, I am saying is there are many ways to do things and it is ignorant to say that one way is the only way.  I mean really, looking at both studies posted here you have to keep in mind that there are many different things to look at (ie the person involved, goals, insulin sensitivity/resistance, etc...).  Basically all I want is to give people an option and say "here youy go, now try both and see which one works best for you".   I think both ways are effective and work well.



P, I've been told since I was 16 that you need a insulin spike post workout as during an intense workout you expend all the glycogen stores in the muscles you've worked and you need glucose to replace what you've lost and a shot of protein along side to instantly start repairing the muscles you've torn. I also understand that if your not acchieving your macros consistently the protein/glucose spike wont do shit?

Right?

Peace

LP


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## PreMier (Jul 23, 2010)

leg_press said:


> P, I've been told since I was 16 that you need a insulin spike post workout as during an intense workout you expend all the glycogen stores in the muscles you've worked and you need glucose to replace what you've lost and a shot of protein along side to instantly start repairing the muscles you've torn. I also understand that if your not acchieving your macros consistently the protein/glucose spike wont do shit?
> 
> Right?
> 
> ...


since you were told this ever since you were a wee lad, it must be true


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