# Lifts for outer Bicep



## JoeR. (Aug 26, 2004)

Is there any isolation lifts that succsefully hit the outer part of the bicep muscle more so than the inner.  Like my front double bicep shot is a strong point, but in a read double bicep shot it isnt nearly as impressive.  the muscle kind of grows inward.  I know thats problaly genitcally dispostioned but I know doing bb curls with a ez bar hits the inner bicep more.  I have always done those, and now have switched to straight bar.  Any other movements to bring that side up the bicep up.


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## ihateschoolmt (Aug 26, 2004)

i have the same problem and yes there are some more, any bicep curl you do with one bar will work your outer bicep more if you hold your grip towards the center it will hit more on the outer but not only so you dont have to drop the wieght.


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## JoeR. (Aug 26, 2004)

So wait close grip on barbell curl with straight bar hits the out Bicep the most? WHat about other exercies,  will doing hammer curls help with that?


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## maxpro2 (Aug 26, 2004)

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=6406


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## Flex (Aug 27, 2004)

i started doing BB curls with a real wide grip and i noticed its been hitting the outside more b/c the wider grip you take, the more you tweak your pinky up at the top of the movement...


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## Du (Aug 27, 2004)

Try a concentration curl. Its tough to use high weights, but if you bring it outside your shoulder or to your shoulder at the top, youll feel it in the outer bi. At least, thats works for me, Ive had the same problem.


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## Johnnny (Aug 27, 2004)

dumbbell hammer curls, standing, seated, or incline hammer curls are really amazing. 

Try incline as you are restricted to cheating & make sure you keep your head against the bench & not looking upwards & keep your feet either flat on the ground, or on a bench or something.


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## JoeR. (Aug 27, 2004)

Let me get this straight:

To hit the Bicep Brachii long head(outer), I want to do hammer curls and curls with wide and/or straight bar.
To hit the Bicep Brachii short head(inner), I want to do curls with a narrow grip and/or cambered bar.
To hit the Brachialis, I want to do Preachers curls, concentration curls.  Do hammer fall isnt this group also?


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## Saturday Fever (Aug 27, 2004)

PLEASE tell me you guys are kidding.

Look, anatomically, the biceps IS two muscles. But they share insertion points. So structurally, you cannot isolate the "inner" or "outer" portion. We've all through the course of our lifting careers "felt" like we were doing something, and we can even convince ourselves that we SEE changes. But I'm telling you that it isn't possible anatomically.


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## Johnnny (Aug 27, 2004)

Saturday Fever



> PLEASE tell me you guys are kidding.
> 
> Look, anatomically, the biceps IS two muscles. But they share insertion points. So structurally, you cannot isolate the "inner" or "outer" portion. We've all through the course of our lifting careers "felt" like we were doing something, and we can even convince ourselves that we SEE changes. But I'm telling you that it isn't possible anatomically.



Than what would your expertise suggest?


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## Saturday Fever (Aug 27, 2004)

I would suggest working your biceps. Use whatever grip you want, just understand that regardless of grip you're working the biceps as a whole. Be sure to use curl movements as an accessory to your heavy rowing and pulling lifts. And mind your volume on isolation work.


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## Johnnny (Aug 27, 2004)

Saturday Fever



> would suggest working your biceps. Use whatever grip you want, just understand that regardless of grip you're working the biceps as a whole.
> Be sure to use curl movements as an accessory to your heavy rowing and
> pulling lifts. And mind your volume on isolation work.



Pretty solid advice.

BTW I wasn't trying to be sarcastic or anything, I was serious as I know that you are pretty knowledgeable.

Why is it that we're always told that standing barbell/dumbbell curls build overall mass & shape, some form of hammer curls build the outer part of the bicep along with size, & preacher/concentration curls build more shape & bring out the peak to the fullest?


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## Saturday Fever (Aug 27, 2004)

> Why is it that we're always told that standing barbell/dumbbell curls build overall mass & shape, some form of hammer curls build the outer part of the bicep along with size, & preacher/concentration curls build more shape & bring out the peak to the fullest?



Just the myths of bodybuilding being perpetuated over and over again.


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## Johnnny (Aug 27, 2004)

Saturday Fever



> Just the myths of bodybuilding being perpetuated over and over again



I can see that.

I think I've said this once b4, but for me personally I've found that if I stop doing either preacher or concentration curls, I find that my overall peak begins to fade.

Yet the mass & strength remains.

& if I start doing the preacher/concentraion curls again, my overall peak returns within a couple of weeks?


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## Saturday Fever (Aug 27, 2004)

gopro would tell you that angle of your wrists is causing greater recruitment of the brachialis, which lies under the biceps. By building the muscle that's under your biceps, you would cause your bicep to elevate or "peak."

I don't believe the angle of the wrist can cause that, but I think the idea, in general, is correct. But "peak" has nothing to do with "inner" or "outer."


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## Saturday Fever (Aug 27, 2004)

I suppose, based on one's genetics, that if he brachialis inserted really low on the elbow, wrist angle COULD influence it's recruitment.

*ponders*


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## Johnnny (Aug 27, 2004)

Saturday Fever



> gopro would tell you that angle of your wrists is causing greater recruitment of the brachialis, which lies under the biceps. By building the muscle that's under your biceps, you would cause your bicep to elevate or "peak."
> 
> I don't believe the angle of the wrist can cause that, but I think the idea, in general, is correct. But "peak" has nothing to do with "inner" or "outer."



Yes that's what Gopro said exactly in regards to that.

Plus a few years back I would also stop doing hammer curls for awhile & found that the overall size & shape decreased.

& yes you are right peak has nothing to do with inner/outer I was just giving an example.

But I know that if I don't do hammer curls for more than 4 weeks, I will lose over all shape & "some" size.



> I suppose, based on one's genetics, that if he brachialis inserted really low on the elbow, wrist angle COULD influence it's recruitment.
> 
> *ponders*



Also very true. Genetics plays a huge part in what muscles develop in size & shape.

Although IMO lowered body fat% is what gives real shape not a certain exercise.


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## Flex (Aug 30, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> PLEASE tell me you guys are kidding.
> 
> Look, anatomically, the biceps IS two muscles. But they share insertion points. So structurally, you cannot isolate the "inner" or "outer" portion. We've all through the course of our lifting careers "felt" like we were doing something, and we can even convince ourselves that we SEE changes. But I'm telling you that it isn't possible anatomically.



no, i'm definitely not kidding. 

if i use a close grip, for example, i am not able to peak my bi's at the top of the movement as i am able to when i use a wide grip. 

whats so incomprehensible about that? 

this is the same arguement that alwasy comes up about inclines not building "upper chest". well guess what. if i were to completely cut out inclines, my upper chest would shrink. 

Don't believe me? You don't believe you can isolate a certain part of a muscle? I'll prove it. 

take both your hands and "guard your balls" (pardon the expression) as if you were in a wall in soccer. now, flex your pecs as hard as you can. the bottom half and the outer part of my pecs flex real tight and get real hard. but the upper pecs merely tighten a little bit. 
now, stick out your arms at a full arms length like you just pushed somebody. flex your pecs as hard as you can. now, my upper pecs flex real tight and get hard, and the lower portions merely get a little tight.

if that doesnt explain something, i don't know what does...


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## Johnnny (Aug 30, 2004)

FLEX



> this is the same arguement that alwasy comes up about inclines not
> building "upper chest". well guess what. if i were to completely cut out
> inclines, my upper chest would shrink.
> 
> ...



This is exactly how I feel.

If I stopped doing incline presses for my upper chest, it would not only shrink, but it would become really weak & wouldn't build from doing bench press.

Same for other exercises, if all I did was pull downs for back, there wouldn't be much thickness going on.

Or if all I did for shoulders was DB or military presses & stopped doing side delts raises my side delts would shrink & loose their roundness/fullness & rear delt flies, the back part of my shoulders would appear flat.

Or if I stopped doing hammer curls, I'd loose bicep size & overall shape as would I loose peak if I stopped concentration or preacher curls.

But I'm not going to get into all of it b/c it will just be argued don't you agree FLEX?

Anway we know what happens if we stop doing certain expercises such as incline presses.

All I can say is train everything from all angles & grips forms etc... & you will have overall better development.


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## CowPimp (Aug 30, 2004)

Flex said:
			
		

> no, i'm definitely not kidding.
> 
> if i use a close grip, for example, i am not able to peak my bi's at the top of the movement as i am able to when i use a wide grip.
> 
> ...



The whole muscle is still contracting, regardless.


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## Saturday Fever (Aug 30, 2004)

OK, here's a quick discredit to the soccer idea. You're taking a situation where you're rotating your shoulders forard and down. What does this do to your pecs? If your front delt applies downward pressure to your pec, which part of the pec will obviously seem more solid or "used?" Right, the bottom. This doesn't mean in any way that you're isolating a lower pec. Anatomy doesn't lie.

Now as far as incline pressing hitting this mysterious "upper chest", I've said this before but I'll repeat. Genetically, speaking, your front delt may insert very well, or to translate, it may insert under your pec. Yes it happens, no it isn't uncommon. Now physiology says that when you're doing an incline press, you cause a greater recruitment of your front delt than you would in a flat or decline press. And as we all know, stimulation equals hypertrophy. And since you may or may not be one of those people whos delt inserts high, I argue that your delt is growing and pushing up and out on your pec, creating the appearance of an "upper chest." And anatomy and physiology would both agree with me. Unless we're to believe all of a sudden that science is bullshit?


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## Uzi9 (Aug 30, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> OK, here's a quick discredit to the soccer idea. You're taking a situation where you're rotating your shoulders forard and down. What does this do to your pecs? If your front delt applies downward pressure to your pec, which part of the pec will obviously seem more solid or "used?" Right, the bottom. This doesn't mean in any way that you're isolating a lower pec. Anatomy doesn't lie.
> 
> Now as far as incline pressing hitting this mysterious "upper chest", I've said this before but I'll repeat. Genetically, speaking, your front delt may insert very well, or to translate, it may insert under your pec. Yes it happens, no it isn't uncommon. Now physiology says that when you're doing an incline press, you cause a greater recruitment of your front delt than you would in a flat or decline press. And as we all know, stimulation equals hypertrophy. And since you may or may not be one of those people whos delt inserts high, I argue that your delt is growing and pushing up and out on your pec, creating the appearance of an "upper chest." And anatomy and physiology would both agree with me. Unless we're to believe all of a sudden that science is bullshit?


I agree totally... What is all this about making a muscle grow in diffenent ways.. a muscle either all grows or not at all.


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## Johnnny (Aug 30, 2004)

UZi9



> I agree totally... What is all this about making a muscle grow in diffenent ways.. a muscle either all grows or not at all.



I know that Saturday fever is very knowledeable (I mean it), but I'm going to have agree with Uzi9 as well.


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## Saturday Fever (Aug 30, 2004)

So you agree with the guy who agrees with me? Good deal.


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## Vieope (Aug 30, 2004)

Uzi9 said:
			
		

> I agree totally... What is all this about making a muscle grow in diffenent ways.. a muscle either all grows or not at all.





			
				Johnnny said:
			
		

> UZi9
> I know that Saturday fever is very knowledeable (I mean it), but I'm going to have agree with Uzi9 as well.





			
				Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> So you agree with the guy who agrees with me? Good deal.


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## Rocco32 (Aug 30, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> So you agree with the guy who agrees with me? Good deal.


Johhhnnnnyyyyy's not all there


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## Randy (Aug 30, 2004)

I still believe that ones grip will allow you to focus emphasis on different parts of the bicep, such as close grip on Outer Bicep, and wide grip on inner.   Flex's chest analogy seems to describe this concept.


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## Johnnny (Aug 30, 2004)

Forgive me as I typed in a hurry & misunderstood, as I'm trying to work on some data bases & just coming online once in awhile in a hurry.

rock4832



> Johhhnnnnyyyyy's not all there



As I said I'm not really paying attention to everything that's going on here tonight as I'm working on databases for work so I misunderstood.

You know how it is when you're working, everything around you doesn't matter that much & you don't pay much attention to it as you're focus is work.

I agree with Flex's opinion. Sorry about that.

But Saturday Fever you are still very knowledgeable about many other things.

Back to work


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## Saturday Fever (Aug 30, 2004)

I've proven his opinion wrong. So agree with whatever you'd like. Right has been explained either way.


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## Arnold (Aug 30, 2004)

I do not think anyone here has big enough arms to even worry about this. 

Just do fricking curls for christ's sake! 

Once you get your arms to 20inches then you can start worrying about the inner and outer...


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## gopro (Aug 31, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> gopro would tell you that angle of your wrists is causing greater recruitment of the brachialis, which lies under the biceps. By building the muscle that's under your biceps, you would cause your bicep to elevate or "peak."
> 
> I don't believe the angle of the wrist can cause that, but I think the idea, in general, is correct. But "peak" has nothing to do with "inner" or "outer."


Yes, gopro would say that and be correct. And gopro would agree that this has nothing to do with inner or outer biceps.


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## Saturday Fever (Aug 31, 2004)

I would say, based on one's genetics and where the insertion lies, that it's correct as well. But I mentioned that I think. Hard to remember where I posted when there are two identical threads running around.


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## Johnnny (Aug 31, 2004)

Saturday Fever



> I've proven his opinion wrong. So agree with whatever you'd like. Right has been explained either way.



All I can say is that if I stopped doing incline presses, my upper chest would shrink & get weaker as would my middle & lower chest if I stoppe those presses.

I would lose my bicep peak if all I did was barbell curls.

& if I only did military press in the front w/o any side raises or rear delt flies I would loose overall size/shape to my shoulders.

Robert DiMaggio



> I do not think anyone here has big enough arms to even worry about this.
> 
> Just do fricking curls for christ's sake!
> 
> Once you get your arms to 20inches then you can start worrying about the inner and outer...



I agree with this, you have to do all forms of curls to build the overall biceps.

As for building 20 inch arms, we'd need some "real serious supplements" & probably have to weigh at least 230lbs if not more pretty solid depending on your height.


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## Arnold (Aug 31, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> All I can say is that if I stopped doing incline presses, my upper chest would shrink & get weaker as would my middle & lower chest if I stoppe those presses.
> 
> I would lose my bicep peak if all I did was barbell curls.


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## P-funk (Aug 31, 2004)

LMAO at prince's response!


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## gopro (Aug 31, 2004)

As far as incline presses and upper chest goes, as well as the ability of certain exercises affecting certain areas of certain muscles, well, you certainly know how I feel...no need to revisit. Most certainly, no need.


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## Johnnny (Aug 31, 2004)

Robert Di Maggio

Don't believe me?

I'm doing 245lbs on incline presses for about 5 reps.

If I stop doing incline presses completely for 6 weeks, come back & ask me how much I could incline bench if I started up again?

I'd be lucky if I could incline bench press 185lbs for 5 reps after 6 weeks of no incline presses of any kind.

& same goes for my bicep peak, if I don't do preacher or concentration curls for more than 4 weeks I will lose my peak.

I'm telling the truth about my body. I know my body & what affects my body in ways that nobody else here knows unless I tell you.

I can't speak for what works for you or anyone else on this forum for what affects ppl's body's. Just as no one can speak for me & what works for me/affects my body in different ways.


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## Arnold (Aug 31, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Don't believe me?
> 
> I'm doing 245lbs on incline presses for about 5 reps.
> 
> ...



yes, you would probably lose some strength, you could say that about any exercise though. but there is no reason that you would lose your "upper pec".





> & same goes for my bicep peak, if I don't do preacher or concentration curls for more than 4 weeks I will lose my peak.
> 
> I'm telling the truth about my body. I know my body & what affects my body in ways that nobody else here knows unless I tell you.
> 
> I can't speak for what works for you or anyone else on this forum for what affects ppl's body's. Just as no one can speak for me & what works for me/affects my body in different ways.



no way, this is absurd. if you lose some bicep size because you stop doing preachers this tells me that you are not doing other bicep exercises correctly to stimulate them.

if I stop squatting for a month and then start up again I would most definitely lose some strength with this exercise, but as long as I continue to do other leg exercises I will not lose any size on my legs.


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## Randy (Aug 31, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> yes, you would probably lose some strength, you could say that about any exercise though. but there is no reason that you would lose your "upper pec".


Now that sound funny


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## Randy (Aug 31, 2004)

While Johnny's responses have been addressed here, maybe the big guns can address mine...

Do close grip bicep curls target better on the outer bicep?
And does wide grip target better on the inner bicep?

I've read from so many bodybuilders that this is the case, and yet there still seems to be much controversy over this. Some believe and others say absolutely not.. I was just curious what Prince and Gopro think on this topic.
I do agree with Saturday that both inner and outer muscles are being worked with any bicep exercise, but the question is....can you get a better target on the specific muscles by using the appropriate grip?


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## Arnold (Aug 31, 2004)

the only thing I would say is when you rotate your hand vertically (a hammer curl) the brachialis is incorporated/stressed more.


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## Randy (Aug 31, 2004)

How about when varying your grips while lifting standup barbell curls?
What is your thought on that?


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## Arnold (Aug 31, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> How about when varying your grips while lifting standup barbell curls?
> What is your thought on that?



are just saying a narrow or wide grip on a straight barbell? I think you should grap it about shoulder width, or where it feels most comfortable.

if you're talking an ez-curl bar that could make a difference because the bar is cambered which will change the rotation of your hand.


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## Var (Aug 31, 2004)




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## Saturday Fever (Aug 31, 2004)

I think it's all about genetics and where your insertion points are.

This would also go to backup why some people see results from incline press while others do not. The reason can be summed up in two ways:

1) They're doing it wrong. I doubt this as it's not exactly a complicated lift.
2) Their front delt doesn't insert in a position that will give the appearance of an upper chest they're looking for.

However, I will stand by anatomy any day. You can't change what part of a muscle is worked when the muscles share an insertion point.


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## Flex (Aug 31, 2004)

ok, well, for all you non-believers that you can isolate a part of the muscle, explain this to me......

i only started doing legs 2 years ago. they are my best growing bp. the entire first year or so of doing legs, i pointed my toes outwards. EVERY single exercise, be it squats, leg presses, hacks etc. i pointed my toes/feet outwards.

wouldnt you know......the inside of my quads blew up. they grew great. only problem is the outside of my quads didnt grow. 

i changed my footing on all my ex's, so that i now use a narrow stance with feet pointed forward, or even a tad bit inward, and, wouldn't you know.....DAH DAH DAH DAH..............the outside of my quads grew. 

explain that to me........

(by the way, the EXACT same thing happened with my calves. i used to only do toes pointed straight or out, and the inside grew. now i do pointed in, and the outside is catching up.....)


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## Saturday Fever (Aug 31, 2004)

That's a great example.

EXCEPT THE QUADS AND CALVES *BOTH* HAVE SEPARATE INSERTION POINTS.

So your argument means absolutely nothing. You have said what I've BEEN saying. Muscles with different insertion points can, anatomically, be targetted. It's in the case of a muscle like the biceps or pecs that have single insertion points all around that it CANNOT be done.

I appreciate you unknowingly backing my opinion.


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## Saturday Fever (Aug 31, 2004)

You'll excuse me. The calves have separate origin points. (origin being the topmost point that attaches to the skeleton, insertion being the lowermost attachment.)

The quads have separate origin and insertion points.


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## Randy (Aug 31, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> are just saying a narrow or wide grip on a straight barbell? I think you should grap it about shoulder width, or where it feels most comfortable.
> 
> if you're talking an ez-curl bar that could make a difference because the bar is cambered which will change the rotation of your hand.


I was referring to EZ Curl bar specifically, but could apply to either.

Now Saturday...What do you mean when you say that the muscle shares the same insertion point?   And if you are correct that the various grip positions should not have any affect what-so-ever on targeting specific muscle points when they share the same insertion point then it would not cause any adverse affects either by altering your grips.   And in saying that, in a chance that the grip placement does make a difference, then you have better odds of achieving more uniform growth.   

Also I had mentioned that it is important to change your exercise regularly so that your body does not adjust to the same movement.   Saying this, I had people disagree with this as well.   I thought this was a know fact.   But I guess if you believe that changing grips does not change the way the muscle is contracted, then I guess I can see how one would believe that this would not be considered changing the exercise.


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## Duncans Donuts (Aug 31, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> Also I had mentioned that it is important to change your exercise regularly so that your body does not adjust to the same movement.



The body will adjust to the resistance, not the motion itself.


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## Arnold (Aug 31, 2004)

Flex said:
			
		

> ok, well, for all you non-believers that you can isolate a part of the muscle, explain this to me......
> 
> i only started doing legs 2 years ago. they are my best growing bp. the entire first year or so of doing legs, i pointed my toes outwards. EVERY single exercise, be it squats, leg presses, hacks etc. i pointed my toes/feet outwards.
> 
> ...



of course if you point your toes outward you will hit the inside of your legs, BUT that is *not* part of the quadriceps, you were hitting the adductors.

also, you should always squat, leg press, etc. with toes pointed slightly outward, doing anything else puts a lot of unecessary stress on the knees.


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## Saturday Fever (Aug 31, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> Now Saturday...What do you mean when you say that the muscle shares the same insertion point?   And if you are correct that the various grip positions should not have any affect what-so-ever on targeting specific muscle points when they share the same insertion point then it would not cause any adverse affects either by altering your grips.   And in saying that, in a chance that the grip placement does make a difference, then you have better odds of achieving more uniform growth.



Your muscles attach to your sjkeleton in two places. The spot nearest your head is the "origin" while the attachment lowest to the ground is the "insertion." 



> Also I had mentioned that it is important to change your exercise regularly so that your body does not adjust to the same movement.   Saying this, I had people disagree with this as well.   I thought this was a know fact.   But I guess if you believe that changing grips does not change the way the muscle is contracted, then I guess I can see how one would believe that this would not be considered changing the exercise.



I certainly didn't disagree with this. Physically it isn't going to make a difference. Mentally it will. It's another way to trick your CNS and allow yourself to continue to progress.


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## ZECH (Aug 31, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> As far as incline presses and upper chest goes, as well as the ability of certain exercises affecting certain areas of certain muscles, well, you certainly know how I feel...no need to revisit. Most certainly, no need.


I'm calling chicken daddy!


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## Arnold (Aug 31, 2004)

gopro is the only one that is capable of this miraculous muscle isolation and shaping, mabe he is really on to something .


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## Arnold (Aug 31, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> Also I had mentioned that it is important to change your exercise regularly so that your body does not adjust to the same movement.  Saying this, I had people disagree with this as well.  I thought this was a know fact.



I think you're confusing this with hitting a muscle from different "angles". As in hitting your chest with flat bench press compared to a decline press. Either way you target the pec, but with a slightly different angle.


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## gopro (Aug 31, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> How about when varying your grips while lifting standup barbell curls?
> What is your thought on that?



The argument here will be what is "anatomically/physiologically" possible vs. what is perceived or felt. Also, there have been EMG studies done on the affects of various exercises on "areas" of muscles, with some believing in them, and others not (I suspect that SNF does not). The argument goes even deeper when discussing the area of a muscle that you feel is working more and whether that will affect growth more specifically in that area. This whole thing has been argued over and over on this board and probably every other, and is for the most part split.

I do an exercise for biceps where I lay on an incline bench and turn my hands completely out to the sides and do curls. The angle of pull on this exercise is completely different than that of a standard curl with the palms facing straight ahead, and the area of my biceps that burns is also completely different. I have also observed a slight change in the shape of the outer portion of my biceps since I started to employ this exercise. 

So, is it possible that by radically changing the angle of pull on a muscle you can target one head over another, and in the case, the biceps? I believe you can, but the angle must be very different, not subtle.

I don't know if a slightly wider or narrower grip on barbell curls is enough to get this done. However, I still feel that changing grips is beneficial simply to change the stress on the muscle by forcing it to work through different angles.


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## gopro (Aug 31, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> gopro is the only one that is capable of this miraculous muscle isolation and shaping, mabe he is really on to something .



Gopro and all the people that he trains...c'mon Rob, get it right!


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## Randy (Aug 31, 2004)

Thanks Saturday and Duncan for your feedback... 

Oh, and almost forgot Prince too


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## Randy (Aug 31, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> I do not think anyone here has big enough arms to even worry about this.
> 
> Just do fricking curls for christ's sake!
> 
> Once you get your arms to 20inches then you can start worrying about the inner and outer...


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## JoeR. (Aug 31, 2004)

I just like to say, your welcome.  This thread is so informative with great debates and I started it all!


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## Randy (Aug 31, 2004)

JoeR...

Since you feel the thread was so informative, feel free to contribute to this site
by clicking  *HERE*


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## Saturday Fever (Aug 31, 2004)




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## Phred (Aug 31, 2004)

Here is one for you.  I just started doing alt dumbell curls on an incline (not out to the sides like Gopro described, but just normal alt dumbell curls).  EXCEPT, I have more weight on my pinky finger side of the DB as I hold it (like 5 lbs more).  This takes additional effort to turn the wrist at the top of the rep (contraction) for the squeeze.  Since the heavyer side is down at the start of the rep.  Any thoughts as to whether this is serving any physical benefit to bicep development?


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## Johnnny (Aug 31, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio



> no way, this is absurd. if you lose some bicep size because you stop doing preachers this tells me that you are not doing other bicep exercises correctly to stimulate them.



No offense or anything but you mis read. I never said I'd lose bicep size if I stopped preachers or concentration curls, I said I'd loose bicep peak if I stopped preachers/concentrations not size.

Here's my quote that you quoted me on:



> & same goes for my bicep peak, if I don't do preacher or concentration curls for more than 4 weeks I will lose my peak.



So I lose my peak, not bicep size.

I'd lose bicep size if all I did was preacher/concentration curls & obviously I'd lose size if I stopped bi'a altogether.


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## Duncans Donuts (Aug 31, 2004)

Doing one exercise of curls won't allow your biceps to get big?


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## Johnnny (Aug 31, 2004)

If all you do is preacher curls, you won't get the same mass & strength as you would from standing barbell curls with the 45lb bar or standing db curls using 65's in each hand.

Sure you'll build up a bit of size but standing barbell curls is the king exercise for biceps just as squats is king for legs.

I've always felt that it's important to do 3 varried curls.
1. either standing barbell or DB curls to build overall size/strength
2. a variation of hammer curls to build additional size & shape
3. either preacher or concentration curls to bring up the peak more.

This is the bicep routine I've always followed in that order & it's never steared me wrong.


----------



## Randy (Aug 31, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> If all you do is preacher curls, you won't get the same mass & strength as you would from standing barbell curls with the 45lb bar or standing db curls using 65's in each hand.
> 
> Sure you'll build up a bit of size but standing barbell curls is the king exercise for biceps just as squats is king for legs.
> 
> ...


I don't know if I agree with all your saying here, but my routine regularly consists of 3 varied bicep exercises as well that I rotate regularly.  I do believe in this as well as that standing barbell curls are a very good bicep exercise.  I don't know about the king, but it is a good one.


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## Arnold (Aug 31, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> No offense or anything but you mis read. I never said I'd lose bicep size if I stopped preachers or concentration curls, I said I'd loose bicep peak if I stopped preachers/concentrations not size.



bicep peak comes from two things, genetics and the size of your bicep.

meaning you must first possess the genetic shape to obtain a peak, and you must gain enough size to bring this peak out.

that is why I said it's absurd to think you would lose bicep size if you did not do preacher curls.

no exercise shapes a muscle, you build a muscle and whatever genetic shape that muscle has develops, you cannot change this by using certain exercises.


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## Johnnny (Aug 31, 2004)

personally I can vouch for someone with sh!t genetics for sports & training/muscles.

I was a poor endomorph who transformed his body from 1993-2001 which was pre-thyroid condition & I continue to imporve my body.

Although I'm not 225lbs with a 34inch waist anymore b/c of my thyroid, but I'm 200lbs with a pretty good base/build & strength.

I had no bicep peak b4 training. & with years of training & doing all 3 bicep exercises I've mentioned, I've been able to develop a full & complete bicep.

My arms may not be 20 inches, but they've really come along way since my porker days.

With the genetics that I had, I never thought I was ever going to play football or build up good muscle/condition.

But I did with hard work & a good diet.

Take care all, bed time.


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## Saturday Fever (Aug 31, 2004)

Do NOT mention strength anymore. Strength in one lift will OBVIOUSLY decline is you stop doing that lift.

Folks here (and I speak generally) don't know shit about strength. I can present you with years of evidence and scince backing things regarding hypertrophy. These things are facts. You can agree or disagree as you choose. I can explain to you WHY you think something works and why it DOESN'T work the way you think. The choice is yours. Accept facts and continue doing what you're doing. If you believe it improves your phsyique, GREAT, that's what it's all about. If you want to know what is actually happening, I'm more than happy to explain. But stop bitching when you are given proof that what IS happening isn't what SEEMS to be happening. Just accept two things:

1) SOMETHING is happening.
2) It may not be what you think, but at least now you know what IS happening.


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## Randy (Aug 31, 2004)

I think this thread has just taken a nose dive


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## Johnnny (Sep 1, 2004)

As I said I can't speak for anyone else in regards to their body, their strength, & their genetics, & their possible steroid use.

I can only speak for myself.

I know my body after training for about 9yrs now.

I've learned what exercises to what to my body, & I've learned proper eating habits that everyone should have especially if they want to grow.

But I know what happens to my body when I stop doing certain exercises for a certain amount of time & what negative affect it has.

I'm not speaking for anyone else here just myself & my training experiences.

I don't want to argue, but as I said I know what exercises do what to my body for me no one else.

& in no way I'm criticising anyone here or have anything against anyone else here, but as I said I know what does what to my body.


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## gopro (Sep 1, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> As I said I can't speak for anyone else in regards to their body, their strength, & their genetics, & their possible steroid use.
> 
> I can only speak for myself.
> 
> ...



Haven't you learned anything yet Johnny? YOU DO NOT know what does what to your body! Only SNF knows what does what to your body!


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## Johnnny (Sep 1, 2004)

Gopro



> Haven't you learned anything yet Johnny? YOU DO NOT know what does what
> to your body! Only SNF knows what does what to your body!



Who is SNF? Saturday Fever?

If that's what you mean that I guess I haven't learned anything!    

But in all seriousness one thing I've learned about training & dieting & so on is that it really is an idividual thing as no 2 individuals are the same.

If you take 5 individuals & put them on the same training program & same diet plan, I bet that each will get different results. Or you might get 2 out of the 5 individuals with "SIMILAR" results but not exactly the same.

That's MO.


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## pumpchaser (Sep 1, 2004)

IMO it's more a matter of using standard exercises, but with varying grip widths. For me, a wider than shoulder grip on bar curls, or incline curls with the bells held out to the sides hits the outer heads better. A wider grip with any biceps move should work equally well. Let me know what you think.


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## gopro (Sep 1, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Gopro
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, SNF = Saturday Night Fever

We are just as different as we are similar.


----------



## Saturday Fever (Sep 1, 2004)

You can FEEL whatever you want. If you don't care to know what's actually happening, that's fine. I'm not trying to change your feelings. I'm trying to explain to you what is actually happening. If you really think I'm saying everyone is alike, you've totally misread everything I've posted. Obviously we are all different. Obviously we all have our own skeletal makeup as well as muscular makeup. These differences are what make us unique. What I've told you is why or how things work.

When you say an incline is the only way to keep your "upper chest" that's fine. It's not building this imaginary upper chest, it's building the appearance of an "upper chest" based on where your delt inserts on your skeleton. I'm not going to reexplain what I've said 4 times in the last 3 days, but you can reread it. That's great that doing incline makes you feel like you're developing an "upper chest." You're not, but if you feel you are, great.


----------



## gopro (Sep 1, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> You can FEEL whatever you want. If you don't care to know what's actually happening, that's fine. I'm not trying to change your feelings. I'm trying to explain to you what is actually happening. If you really think I'm saying everyone is alike, you've totally misread everything I've posted. Obviously we are all different. Obviously we all have our own skeletal makeup as well as muscular makeup. These differences are what make us unique. What I've told you is why or how things work.
> 
> When you say an incline is the only way to keep your "upper chest" that's fine. It's not building this imaginary upper chest, it's building the appearance of an "upper chest" based on where your delt inserts on your skeleton. I'm not going to reexplain what I've said 4 times in the last 3 days, but you can reread it. That's great that doing incline makes you feel like you're developing an "upper chest." You're not, but if you feel you are, great.



Can the anterior delts insert at the sternum?


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## Johnnny (Sep 1, 2004)

Gopro



> Yes, SNF = Saturday Night Fever
> 
> We are just as different as we are similar.



That is very true about us as individuals



> Can the anterior delts insert at the sternum?



That's a great point if I ever heard one.

But Saturday Fever, I have nothing against you or anyone else or what you know as I know you know quite a bit, but I feel the way I feel in regards to training & what affect certain exercises have on "MY" body.


Here is another point if I stopped doing flat or decline presses for the pectoral muscles & soley did incline presses for 6 weeks, I know for a fact that my middle/lower chest would shrink & become really weak once I returned to flat or decline chest presses.

Same goes for shoulder presses, if I stopped doing them completely for 6 weeks & just did front raises, side raises & rear delt flies, I would loose overall shoulder size & strength/power.


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 1, 2004)

So let me get this straight. If you stop doing a lift, you'll lose strength in that lift? What a novel concept.


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## P-funk (Sep 1, 2004)

I can't believe this thread is still going on!!  This may be the longest one on this topic.  I refuse to get into this debate anymore.


----------



## Arnold (Sep 1, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> Can the anterior delts insert at the sternum?


----------



## Flex (Sep 1, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> That's a great example.
> 
> EXCEPT THE QUADS AND CALVES *BOTH* HAVE SEPARATE INSERTION POINTS.
> 
> ...



well Mr. "appreciate you unknowingly backing", i got news for ya. 

muscles like the biceps and pecs CAN be targeted. maybe its just me, who the fuck knows. 

alls i know is, i've switched to certain grips, and certain parts of my muscles grow. here are specific examples.

my biceps suck. for some reason the outer lower part would never grow. about a month or two ago, i've switched to a very wide grip, and now that part grows.

the upper part of my chest was lagging. i've switched to a close grip on incline presses (which i've never done before), and now the upper/inner part of my chest is growing well(from each part of the collar bone that come together at the middle/upper part of your chest and form sort of a Y into the middle of your pecs)

explain that to me......if that isn't targeting certain parts of the muscle, i dont know what is.......


----------



## Flex (Sep 1, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> of course if you point your toes outward you will hit the inside of your legs, BUT that is *not* part of the quadriceps, you were hitting the adductors.
> 
> also, you should always squat, leg press, etc. with toes pointed slightly outward, doing anything else puts a lot of unecessary stress on the knees.



i know what the adductors are, and tahts not what i was talkin about. i was talking about the inner "teardrop", which is part of your quads. that part was growing well when i pointed my toes inwards, but the outer sweep didnt grow (that is until i started keeping my feet close together)

and i rarely point my toes inward on legs. its just that i am kinda bowlegged, so my knees naturally sort of "go in", and in order to hit the outer sweep, i gotta point inwards a tad......


----------



## Saturday Fever (Sep 1, 2004)

I believe I've referred to it in this thread (or maybe the other thread) as perception.

When I first started lifting, I swore by the mythical tenets of bodybuilding. I absolutely KNEW that if I held a bar a certain way or benched from 37 different angles that I was targetting different parts of a muscle, and damned if I couldn't SEE the difference. It was all true!

I haven't done an incline press more than once in the last 6 months or so. I rarely do decline. But I bench flat a LOT. And I bench with a powerlifter's form. This puts tremendous amounts of stress on the front delt for the bottom portion of the press. And damned if I don't appear to have an "upper chest." I know it's simply my delts, but it sure LOOKS like I hit the incline regularly, as some would believe.

Likewise, I never do biceps work, unless I do the occassional set of "ego curls" and you know, my biceps split when I flex them. You can physically see both heads of my biceps. And the outside head dwarfs the inside. I suppose it's all the close-grip curls I haven't been doing.

But here's a scenario. Imagine a lifter who still buys the myths seeing me on the rare day I do curls, and he sees the split and sees the difference in the size. Maybe that day I am using a close grip on the bar. In his mind, he perceives that my arms look the way they do because of my grip during curls. And he'd be wrong. They look that way because that's just how my DNA dictates they look.


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## PreMier (Sep 1, 2004)

P-funk said:
			
		

> I can't believe this thread is still going on!!  This may be the longest one on this topic.  I refuse to get into this debate anymore.



I cant believe I missed out on this one!  Where are you going, I just got here 

I actually have nothing to say on this topic.  Well, except SF is right.


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## Flex (Sep 1, 2004)

well sat., i hear what you're saying, but i just don't get it.

why when i do close grip incline bb, the upper/inner part of my chest blows up and grows?? for years all i've done is wide grip inclines, and i never got the results i've gotten in less than 2mo. of close grip.


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## gr81 (Sep 1, 2004)

^^it probably has more to do with your form on the flat as opposed to the incline bro. people are forgetting that aspect of the argument


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## Flex (Sep 1, 2004)

i hear ya, but i'm convinced you can target, dammit! haha

anyhow, sign onto your screename once in awhile kid. i finally got a comp. up at my house, and its so much easier/quicker to bullshit than email


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## P-funk (Sep 1, 2004)

PreMier said:
			
		

> I cant believe I missed out on this one!  Where are you going, I just got here
> 
> I actually have nothing to say on this topic.  Well, except SF is right.



I'm not going anywhere.  I read but I refuse to comment.


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## gr81 (Sep 1, 2004)

> anyhow, sign onto your screename once in awhile kid. i finally got a comp. up at my house, and its so much easier/quicker to bullshit than email



I'm on maYn


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## Johnnny (Sep 1, 2004)

P-Funk



> I can't believe this thread is still going on!! This may be the longest one on this topic. I refuse to get into this debate anymore.



Awh, come on dude, I'd like to hear your opinion?

What would happen to your upper chest if you stopped doing incline presses?
Would your upper chest get weaker & smaller or would it grow from solely flat chest presses?

& what would happen to your biceps if all you did was barbbell curls, or all you did was concentration curls & nothing else? Would your biceps still develop fully?


As for getting 20 inch arms, IMO that's only accomplishable with the use of steroids for at least 2-4yrs or more so that's out for the natural ppl.

That forces us natural ppl to train & eat our as$es off the old fashioned way.

& maybe get half or slightly more than half way to 20 inch arms.


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## gr81 (Sep 1, 2004)

> What would happen to your upper chest if you stopped doing incline presses?
> Would your upper chest get weaker & smaller or would it grow from solely flat chest presses?
> 
> & what would happen to your biceps if all you did was barbbell curls, or all you did was concentration curls & nothing else? Would your biceps still develop fully?



completely ridiculous


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 2, 2004)

Geezus christ, Johnny. One last time, in bold caps:

*IF YOU DONT DO A SPECIFIC LIFT, YOU WILL LOSE STRENGTH IN THAT PARTICULAR LIFT*

If you still don't get it, you never will. See you in 10 years when you are what you are NOW.


----------



## P-funk (Sep 2, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> P-Funk
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think most people here already no my opinion on this topic, that is why i don't want to contribute to this thread, I will just get frustrated with people like yourself that try and argue with nothing more that YOUR OWN OPINION.  Every post you make says the same thing "I feel that...." or "In my opinion"  or "that's what I think" but you never....EVER.....have any scinece to back up what the hell you are talking about.  I could give a shit less about what you think or feel on a given subject.  Show it to me....PROVE IT TO ME.  Where is the evidence?

Now to answer your other questions: 

Would my chest get smaller if I stopped doing incline work?  my answer....NO.  I haven't done incline bench press in about 5 or6 months.  funny thing is my chest keeps growing....MY WHOLE CHEST!!  I did decline presses today for the first time in 3 or 4 months.  Was I weaker on the lift?  Yes, I was weaker than when I did the lift more often.  Has my chest gotten any smaller from not doing it?  Nope.  Almost all I do is flat bench now.

What would happen to my biceps if all I did was barbell curls?  Well, considering the fact that for the past 10 weeks all I had done was 3 sets of bicep curls a week (because I wasn't training bodyparts, rather doing total body workouts or an upper/lower split....two things that again, you don't feel can ever work  ) my biceps are just fine.  They are actually bigger than ever.  Now that I am back training body parts for the next 6 weeks since I hurt my knee and acn't train lower body, I will do more than just barbell curls for them.  Did I loose any strength from not doing preacher curls?  No, not really.  Did I loose any "peak" from not doing preacher curls?  Well, I don't think I have to answer that question because it is totally idiotic, but I'll answer anyway...nope.  I am just fine and that is with barely any direct arm work in 9 weeks.


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## Flex (Sep 2, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> P-Funk
> As for getting 20 inch arms, IMO that's only accomplishable with the use of steroids for at least 2-4yrs or more so that's out for the natural ppl.
> 
> That forces us natural ppl to train & eat our as$es off the old fashioned way.



you make no sense. 

so its impossible to get 20in. arms w/o juice? thats funny,i know a guy that has 'em w/o juice.

and you'll also saying that people who juice don't need to train and eat their asses off? 

your posts continue to, um, amaze me.


----------



## JoeR. (Sep 2, 2004)

Ok, ok I have a legitmate question now.  First off let me say that I used to think by the bb rules, but really they dont make any sense from a scientific pov.  I always look at the world from a scientific pov, so much for that.  

Why does your strengh decrease in a certain lift of a body part that has the only 2 insertion points if you do another exercise for that muscle?  An example would be all you do is incline bench, you switch to nothing but flat bench, you gain inches on your chest, and when you go to do incline work you arent as strong.  How can that be?  If the whole muscle got bigger and during any bench work(any angle) and the whole muscle is contracted from the same points.  Can you explain this to me from a purely scientific point?

Again let me state I am in agreement with SF.  Im not trying to disprove him in this question.


----------



## Saturday Fever (Sep 2, 2004)

Because strength is a function of CNS adaption. Obviously there is a limit to the physical loading one can place on a muscle or muscles. But as I stated, you can do exercises that train the same muscle or muscles, and still lose strength in a lift you aren't performing. And that is your CNS.


----------



## JoeR. (Sep 2, 2004)

You might or might not have any, but do you knnow any good articles on how, what, where, and how the CNS works?

I havent the slightest idea, other than you can overtrain that much easier then the muscle itself.


----------



## Uzi9 (Sep 2, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> Because strength is a function of CNS adaption. Obviously there is a limit to the physical loading one can place on a muscle or muscles. But as I stated, you can do exercises that train the same muscle or muscles, and still lose strength in a lift you aren't performing. And that is your CNS.


Just curious, how does your CNS contract to lift up a weight or even move a arm?

Are you stating that your CNS Realises the stress from a certain angle and makes those muscle`s work with more output, so it isnt accutaly the muscle getting bigger or smaller just your CNS telling your muscle to work harder as it remembers that angle it was worked? or am I wrong to you?


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 2, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> & what would happen to your biceps if all you did was barbbell curls, or all you did was concentration curls & nothing else? Would your biceps still develop fully?



For 3 months I did nothing but concentrated curls for my biceps.  I eventually was doing more than 70 pounds an arm for 10 reps.  Needless to say my biceps did not suffer as the weight progressed and was in good form.

Now I'm doing exclusively barbell curls and my progress is still continuing.  The idea that you can not have well developed biceps unless you're using a thousand exercises is wrong.


----------



## Randy (Sep 2, 2004)

What routine did Mentzer perform for his biceps? 
This guy is definately a steroid beast with no doubt.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 2, 2004)

Calling him a steroid beast is interesting.  

He used the same routine I do (because I follow his methodology), except he'd supplement preacher curls (which I can't do) and palm up pulldowns (which I used to use to some great results) with various other exercises.

Edit: it should be noted that Mentzer did one or two exercises, one set to failure per bodypart.  He simply varied the workouts / techniques every few months.


----------



## Randy (Sep 2, 2004)

So you're telling me he has never done steroids...   I can't believe that one if you are saying that.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 2, 2004)

Where did I say that?  

I said it was interesting because by pointing that out before anything else you you draw into question his credibility.  Forget the facts or the merits; you've already associated him with steroids, which must mean his success was limited to the drugs he took.

Although maybe you pointed that out with a  laugh before any other points you have for a different reason.  Correct me if I'm wrong, I wouldn't want to presume too much.

I would like to point out that Mentzer also ran a very succesful personal training company with a great deal of satisfied customers who were steroid free.


----------



## Saturday Fever (Sep 2, 2004)

Uzi9 said:
			
		

> Just curious, how does your CNS contract to lift up a weight or even move a arm?



Your body racts because your brain tells it to. Your brain tells it to by sending electrical signals via the Central Nervous System. Your CNS doesn't contract, your CNS controlls the contraction. 



> Are you stating that your CNS Realises the stress from a certain angle and makes those muscle`s work with more output, so it isnt accutaly the muscle getting bigger or smaller just your CNS telling your muscle to work harder as it remembers that angle it was worked? or am I wrong to you?



I'm not understanding your question at all. Reword it.


----------



## Arnold (Sep 2, 2004)

P-funk said:
			
		

> Would my chest get smaller if I stopped doing incline work?  my answer....NO.  I haven't done incline bench press in about 5 or 6 months.  funny thing is my chest keeps growing....MY WHOLE CHEST!!



dude, no way, your upper chest had to of shrunk!


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 2, 2004)

Randy



> What routine did Mentzer perform for his biceps?
> This guy is definately a steroid beast with no doubt.



Well that is true about being a juice monkey LOL.

But they do train hard.

Saturday Fever



> Geezus christ, Johnny. One last time, in bold caps:
> 
> IF YOU DONT DO A SPECIFIC LIFT, YOU WILL LOSE STRENGTH IN THAT PARTICULAR LIFT
> 
> If you still don't get it, you never will. See you in 10 years when you are what you are NOW.



All I'm going to say is & I think both Gopro & Robert DiMaggio have stated this is that it's important to train all muscles from different angles, grips, forms & so on to develop an overall complete physique.

I've seen guys who are pretty lean, & all they do is barbell curls maybe  or 5 sets & that's it. Yes they develop big solid arms, but their arms aren't nicely shaped with size as opposed to someone doing all curl variations, standing, hammer, & concentration/preacher.

I do a complete routine hitting all muscles from different angles & I eat properly so I'm doing just fine.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 2, 2004)

Duncans Donuts



> For 3 months I did nothing but concentrated curls for my biceps. I eventually was doing more than 70 pounds an arm for 10 reps. Needless to say my biceps did not suffer as the weight progressed and was in good form.
> 
> Now I'm doing exclusively barbell curls and my progress is still continuing. The idea that you can not have well developed biceps unless you're using a thousand exercises is wrong.



So you're using 70lbs on your concentration curls in each hand? I guess you're barbell curling 185lbs at least?

I use 50lbs in each hand for concentration curls for about 6 reps & I curl about 145lbs for 3-5 reps slightly cheating on barbell curls.


Flex



> you make no sense.
> 
> so its impossible to get 20in. arms w/o juice? thats funny,i know a guy that has 'em w/o juice.
> 
> ...



Well I will say this I've met 4 individuals 20 inch arms & all of them are on heavy duty steroids.

2 of them were honest about it while the other 2 lied their as$es off about it while all of us & other bodybuilders around knew the truth.

One of the guys who said he was lying, his girlfriend told us that first he had puncture marks as$ & later she found syringes in his garbage.

So most ppl who say they're natural with 20inch arms are lying.

The first man to have 21inch arms was Leroy Colbert & that was in the 70's & he was on a lot of steroids.

So there's no way you can develop 20 inch arms w/o steroids not possible. 

The biggest natural arms I've seen ripped that is, is 18 inches & that's after 10yrs of work & eating.

P-Funk



> Would my chest get smaller if I stopped doing incline work? my answer....NO. I haven't done incline bench press in about 5 or 6 months. funny thing is my chest keeps growing....MY WHOLE CHEST!!



P-Funk, I have nothing against you, but I have a hard time believing this statement.

If I stopped incline presses for 5 months, I'd be lucky to incline bench 185lbs & I would certainly lose upper chest size.

I know b/c I had to stop training for 2 months once & it took me about 5 weeks b4 my strength started returning.


gr81



> completely ridiculous



Don't believe me?

Like I said earlier, I know my body & what happens when I don't do certain exercises for too long & what negative affect it has on my overall shape.


----------



## Randy (Sep 2, 2004)

Yeah I would say most body builders using steroids would never admit it .

But in my opinion it is only obvious.  And I don't deny that they work hard.  It's just that when their arms and legs are the diameter of a telephone pole, steroids is an obvious factor...  I've talked to users who juice up before their body building competitions and they tell me this phenomenal amount of shots they administer before the shows. You see their veins bulging out everywhere 





.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 2, 2004)

Flex



> you make no sense.
> 
> so its impossible to get 20in. arms w/o juice? thats funny,i know a guy that has 'em w/o juice.
> 
> ...



I've only met 4 individuals with 20 inch arms & they were all serious steroid users & had been for a good 5+yrs.

2 of these individuals were honest about it, while the other 2 lied about it.

One of the liar's girlfriend found needles in his garbage & always saw what she thought were sits on his a$$ but she learned they were puncture marks as they were always in the same place.

IMO  anyone with 20 inch arms & ripped were talking about here & says they're natural is lying.

The biggest ripped arms I've seen were 18inches & that's with 10-12yrs of work & eating properly.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 2, 2004)

Sorry for the double post I was going through my cookies & clicked post by mistake.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 2, 2004)

Randy



> Yeah I would say most body builders using steroids would never admit it .
> 
> But in my opinion it is only obvious. And I don't deny that they work hard. It's just that when their arms and legs are the diameter of a telephone pole, steroids is an obvious factor... I've talked to users who juice up before their body building competitions and they tell me this phenomenal amount of shots they administer before the shows. You see their veins bulging out everywhere



I damn well agree with you on this one Randy.

I know exactly what you're talking about.

One of the guys who has 20 inch arms I met is only about 5ft9 & weighs at least 230lbs & he's pretty damn lean.

Yet he never trains heavy, & always uses retarded little machines most of the time & he stays huge.

I know many ppl who need to constantly train heavy to keep their size & they're natural.

How does this guy stay huge & pretty lean w/o training very heavy & w/o many free weights or db's?

I'll tell you, pills & injections.

I have one friend who has just this year been honest with me about his steroid use after lying for 5yrs.

I played football with him for about 6yrs. He was a WR fast & strong for his height of 6ft3 & weight of 215-220lbs & had told me that he couldn't gain anymore mass or power which meant he probably couldn't grow much more natural. 

He was this weight consitantly for about 4yrs during highschool, than one fall he comes into training camp at 245lbs descently lean at about 10% BF & he had to be converted to MLinebacker b/c he was too big for WR but not big enough for TE.

Ppl will lie about it & try to tell you it's all hard work but it's a mix of hard work & injections/orals. But in no way I'm saying I have anything against steroid users, I just say be honest & stop trying to fool ppl as ppl aren't that stupid.

Just as you said Randy, you get to a point where it's damn obvious & lying about it is just pointless & makes you look like an insecure person.

If I ever took steroids, I'd be totally honest about it & what I'm using & how much instead of trying to convince ppl that it's natural.

When you're ripped at 300lbs or less even at 230lbs, it starts being obvious


----------



## Arnold (Sep 2, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> Yeah I would say most body builders using steroids would never admit it.



well can you blame them when it's a felony to possess steroids?


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 2, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Duncans Donuts
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Using techniques like slow negatives, pausing with the weight in the maximized contraction position, and lifting the weight slowly (3-4 seconds) I can do 135 for barely 8 reps.

I don't know why you'd presume that I'd do 185 pounds on a barbell curl.  Thanks for the vote of confidence, though.  I can do strict negatives with about 200 pounds, at about 7 or 8 seconds in perfect form.  Certainly, at this point, can't raise the weight with that much weight.

We're all entitled to our beliefs and our training methods, but I have to disagree when someone says that you won't have good bicep development if you don't do a huge volume of bicep exercises.


----------



## Saturday Fever (Sep 2, 2004)

> If I stopped incline presses for 5 months, I'd be lucky to incline bench 185lbs



Gawd dammit. I told you never to discuss strength again until you learn about strength. I even posted, in bold letters and caps, an explanation for this. So stop saying strength for the rest of your life. You have lost your privileges.



> I know b/c I had to stop training for 2 months once & it took me about 5 weeks b4 my strength started returning.



See above. I'm tired of repeating myself and you going, "Oh but I feel it" or "Oh but I think" or "Oh but it's my opinion."

Stop thinking, don't ever develop your own opinion again. Because it's all ludicrous.


----------



## Randy (Sep 3, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> well can you blame them when it's a felony to possess steroids?


 
No, I didn't mean to imply that I blamed them.  But it is only obvious like I said whether they admit it or not. And if they're in sports or competition with others who are supposed to be natural and are breathing fire and built like a brick shit house.... would it really matter whether they admit it (it would be obvious) .  Those folks will eventually be mandatorily tested and tossed out.   I know many here are into the juice and that is fine, but in cases such as sport events as I mentioned, I am 100 percent against it and I hope they all get busted.


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## gr81 (Sep 3, 2004)

> Gawd dammit. I told you never to discuss strength again until you learn about strength. I even posted, in bold letters and caps, an explanation for this. So stop saying strength for the rest of your life. You have lost your privileges.


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## P-funk (Sep 3, 2004)

> P-Funk, I have nothing against you, but I have a hard time believing this statement.
> 
> If I stopped incline presses for 5 months, I'd be lucky to incline bench 185lbs & I would certainly lose upper chest size.
> 
> I know b/c I had to stop training for 2 months once & it took me about 5 weeks b4 my strength started returning.



See, there is that "I know" statment again.  Of course you lost strength after not training for 2 months.

Man, I am sorry, but every time you post I laugh at the level of mental retardation that you are able to achieve.  You are incredibly stupid.  Obviously you have never picked up a science book, or any book for that matter, because you ability to argue and debate in a logic manner is so piss poor.  I feel bad for you that you have are going to go through life operating on such a low level of intelligence.  take care.


----------



## Flex (Sep 3, 2004)

P-funk said:
			
		

> Man, I am sorry, but every time you post I laugh at the level of mental retardation that you are able to achieve.



no kidding.

this guys has an answer "he knows about" or "did" for EVERYTHING.


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## Terok`Nor (Sep 3, 2004)

*F*CK*  Johnnny I DON'T WANT TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR LIFE HISTORY AND YOUR BUDDIES AND THEIR LIFE HISTORIES


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## P-funk (Sep 3, 2004)

Terok`Nor said:
			
		

> *F*CK*  Johnnny I DON'T WANT TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR LIFE HISTORY AND YOUR BUDDIES AND THEIR LIFE HISTORIES



  

I though I was the only person here that got frustrated with his long winded posts about his freinds that use steroids and about what he did, can do and used to be able to do, whether it pertains to the thread or not.


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## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

P-Funk



> See, there is that "I know" statment again. Of course you lost strength after not training for 2 months.
> 
> Man, I am sorry, but every time you post I laugh at the level of mental retardation that you are able to achieve. You are incredibly stupid. Obviously you have never picked up a science book, or any book for that matter, because you ability to argue and debate in a logic manner is so piss poor. I feel bad for you that you have are going to go through life operating on such a low level of intelligence. take care.



I've never insulted you like that.

IMO if you want to insult ppl go back to grade school as I see your maturity level is still at that level.

You say 



> Would my chest get smaller if I stopped doing incline work? my answer....NO. I haven't done incline bench press in about 5 or6 months. funny thing is my chest keeps growing....MY WHOLE CHEST!! I did decline presses today for the first time in 3 or 4 months. Was I weaker on the lift? Yes, I was weaker than when I did the lift more often. Has my chest gotten any smaller from not doing it? Nope. Almost all I do is flat bench now.



Personally that is complete BS. If you don't do your upper chest presses for half a year, your upper chest is going to shrink & get weaker.

Yet here you contradict yourself:



> See, there is that "I know" statment again. Of course you lost strength after not training for 2 months.



Which means that I have not trained my upper chest as well in those 2 months.

This means that your upper chest presses will get weak & your upper chest will shrink.

So if you keep training but don't do upper chest presses for half a year, your upper chest won't grow or get stronger, from doing flat bench, or military presses, your upper chest will get smaller & weaker.

Think of how much stronger/bigger your upper chest would be by now if you hadn't stopped doing incline presses for half a year?


----------



## Arnold (Sep 3, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> I know many here are into the juice and that is fine, but in cases such as sport events as I mentioned, I am 100 percent against it and I hope they all get busted.



really? I do not care, it's just another tool that is used to get a little edge over competiton. 

how do you think world records get broken in the Olympics every 4 years?


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

Terok' Nor



> F*CK Johnnny I DON'T WANT TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR LIFE HISTORY AND YOUR BUDDIES AND THEIR LIFE HISTORIES



wow defensive aren't we?

Are we hiding something perhaps? 

As for sharing life history, I did nothing of the sort, I mentioned one friend who was a constant weight of 215lbs & then all of a sudden exploded to 245lbs.

As for the 4 individuals with 20 arms I refer to, they aren't my friends, just ppl I talk to once in awhile nor do I hang out with them.

Saturday Fever



> Gawd dammit. I told you never to discuss strength again until you learn about strength. I even posted, in bold letters and caps, an explanation for this. So stop saying strength for the rest of your life. You have lost your privileges.



I will discuss what ever I want to discuss.

Plus strength is relative here b/c if you stop your incline presses for 6 months you will lose strength to your incline presses so it's relevant here.




> See above. I'm tired of repeating myself and you going, "Oh but I feel it" or "Oh but I think" or "Oh but it's my opinion."
> 
> Stop thinking, don't ever develop your own opinion again. Because it's all ludicrous.



I could say the exact same thing about some of the opinions I've read here.

Yes I have felt, yes I have experienced it, yes it's my opinion.

Each of us have experienced near similar things & completely different things regarding training & eating.

I'm experessing what I've experienced so I will express what I want as I've been training for a long time.

Robert DiMaggio



> well can you blame them when it's a felony to possess steroids?



No I can't blame them. But a steroid user won't get arrested for telling his friends or other peers about steroids unless he's a cop & even so, there are cops using steroids look at Ronnie Coleman, nobody's arrested him yet.

Duncans Donuts



> Using techniques like slow negatives, pausing with the weight in the maximized contraction position, and lifting the weight slowly (3-4 seconds) I can do 135 for barely 8 reps.
> 
> I don't know why you'd presume that I'd do 185 pounds on a barbell curl. Thanks for the vote of confidence, though. I can do strict negatives with about 200 pounds, at about 7 or 8 seconds in perfect form. Certainly, at this point, can't raise the weight with that much weight.
> 
> We're all entitled to our beliefs and our training methods, but I have to disagree when someone says that you won't have good bicep development if you don't do a huge volume of bicep exercises.



I was assuming that you were using 185lbs on the barbell while using 70's in each hand for concentration curls b/c Roy Callender told us that he was barbell curling 205lbs for 6-8 reps while using 75lbs for several reps on concentration curls plus I've seen pictures of him doing these lifts as well.

But that's just one example of someone on heavy steroids to.

I wasn't criticising you in anyway. I was just impressed that you're doing that much for concentrations & assumed that you had a really strong barbell curl.



Anyway all I'm going to say is that if I stopped doing certain exercises for half a year, my strength for those exercises would get weaker.

And if I stopped doing "COMPOUND MOVEMENTS" those muscles that you're working with the compound movement will get weaker. Plus you I've found that you lose overall size & development if you stop doing CM's such as incline bench press for example.

Everyone knows that CM'S are or should be the core of your routine for a particular body part & that they give you the most size/strength to that muscle.


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## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio



> really? I do not care, it's just another tool that is used to get a little edge over competiton.
> 
> how do you think world records get broken in the Olympics every 4 years?



You are damn right.

I probably would've been on juice 4yrs ago if I hadn't developed that thyroid condition from the ECA stack.

I've been offered many times & been tempted many times LOL 

If I had taken them when I was 225lbs, I'm sure within a few years I'd be about 250lbs. & if I took then now at 200lbs, I'd be about 230lbs in a couple of years with hard work/eating.

It would've been cool to be 250lbs ripped but I was concerned for my health & future health.


----------



## Arnold (Sep 3, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> No I can't blame them. But a steroid user won't get arrested for telling his friends or other peers about steroids unless he's a cop & even so, there are cops using steroids look at Ronnie Coleman, nobody's arrested him yet.



And I am sure they do talk about it with their "friends", but they are not going to tell every tom, dick and harry that comes up to them at the gym or a guest appearance and discuss their use of a Schedule III drug.  (that is what I meant)


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## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio



> And I am sure they do talk about it with their "friends", but they are not going to tell every tom, dick and harry that comes up to them at the gym or a guest appearance and discuss their use of a Schedule III drug.  (that is what I meant)



I feel ya & agree %100.

But what I meant was not strangers, but maybe other ppl who are at the gym all the time & that these guys see all the time even if they don't talk to them that much.

That's how it happened with one of these individuals at my gym. This guy has 21inch arms at 5ft11 & is 255 ripped to the bone.

He actually started talking to me & eventually asked me if I wanted any "supplements" from him.


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## pumpchaser (Sep 3, 2004)

You just have to luv resident "experts" like Saturday. Are you kidding me? Of course the grip makes a difference as to which part of the muscle that is hit, i've experienced the differences many times. Next, Saturday will explain to us in similarly know-all fashion the laws of gravity as he sees them. Methinks it's high time for Saturday to step off the soapbox, and maybe show some humility in future by remembering to position his comments as only opinions-it looks bad when the info's plain wrong, especially when the preaching's so pedantic. 

FYI the usual dumbass knee-jerk/defensive replies won't be read; someone else can waste time getting bent out of shape with this silliness. Just further proof that it's usually bigmouths with some kind of need to be heard who can try to educate the rest of us poor bastards.


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 3, 2004)

So prove to me how it is possible. Instead of doing your usual routine of insults and knee-jerk defensive replies, explain to me how a muscle that shares an insertion can be worked differently based on grip. That's all you have to do to give yourself any credibility.


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## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

PumpChaser



> You just have to luv resident "experts" like Saturday. Are you kidding me? Of course the grip makes a difference as to which part of the muscle that is hit, i've experienced the differences many times. Next, Saturday will explain to us in similarly know-all fashion the laws of gravity as he sees them. Methinks it's high time for Saturday to step off the soapbox, and maybe show some humility in future by remembering to position his comments as only opinions-it looks bad when the info's plain wrong, especially when the preaching's so pedantic.
> 
> FYI the usual dumbass knee-jerk/defensive replies won't be read; someone else can waste time getting bent out of shape with this silliness. Just further proof that it's usually bigmouths with some kind of need to be heard who can try to educate the rest of us poor bastards.



Again I'm not criticising you Saturday Fever as I know you're very knowledgeable, but I'm going to have to agree with Pump Chaser on this one.

Grip makes a huge difference in your training.

When we're doing close-grip bench press as our first tricep exercise, aren't we "MOSTLY" working our triceps along some middle chest?

One thing I'm not feeling is my upper chest working.

What about when we're using the hammer curl grip for biceps? It's not the same grip you'd use when you're doing standing barbell or standing DB curls or preacher curls to concentration curls they're different grips & different angles. 

What about all the angles & grips for all the Back rowing exercises & T-Bar rows? They all work the back in a different manner & will develop the back in a different way.

What about doing incline tricep extensions with DB's versus flat bench tricep extension with the e-z bar? You're hitting the triceps in a different way.

Or what about when you're doing your calves in all the different angles & machines? You're hitting the calves in different ways which will cause a development in a different manner.


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 3, 2004)

Agree with whatever you want. YOU ARE WRONG.

If you aren't, prove it. Stop telling me how you "feel" this or "think" that. Prove it. Show me how a muscle with one insertion point can be stimulated differently based on a grip or stance. And if you can (you can't) I'll agree with you.

But you're wrong.


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## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

Saturday Fever



> Agree with whatever you want. YOU ARE WRONG.
> 
> If you aren't, prove it. Stop telling me how you "feel" this or "think" that. Prove it. Show me how a muscle with one insertion point can be stimulated differently based on a grip or stance. And if you can (you can't) I'll agree with you.
> 
> But you're wrong.



Did you not read any of the exercises & grips & angles I mentioned?

So you're saying that all those grips, & angles are working the muscles in all exactly the same way?

Well face, all those grips & angles are causing the muscles to be worked from a different angle & developing the muscles differently.

If close-grip bench press doesn't hit the triceps more than the chest, than what does it hit? Yes I feel it a bit in my middle chest but more in the triceps.


Than let me ask you this, what's the point of having all those variations of exercises using dumbbells, barbells & different grips & angles if they don't develop the muscles differently?

Why not just do the same exercises over, & over & over again?


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## Duncans Donuts (Sep 3, 2004)

Your argument is anecdotal and speculative.

How are muscles that share an insertion point, which contract to perform the same function, individually targetted by varying the grip?  I'm just playing devil's advocate.  Be more specific in an anatomical or scientific way.


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## Julz (Sep 3, 2004)

2 years ago my arms were at 20", and I've never taken a PH/steroid in my life. Did straight BB curls, DB hammers and either DB preacher or DB Concentration curls.


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## Saturday Fever (Sep 3, 2004)

> Well face, all those grips & angles are causing the muscles to be worked from a different angle & developing the muscles differently.



Prove it.



> Than let me ask you this, what's the point of having all those variations of exercises using dumbbells, barbells & different grips & angles if they don't develop the muscles differently?



Variety. If you actually read anything in this thread instead of telling us about all these great friends you have and what you've seen, you would notice I've ALREADY ANSWERED THAT QUESTION TWICE.


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## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

Julz



> 2 years ago my arms were at 20", and I've never taken a PH/steroid in my life. Did straight BB curls, DB hammers and either DB preacher or DB Concentration curls.



I highly doubt that. 

Are we talking about 20 inches ripped to the bone? At what weight 250lbs ripped to the bone? What height?

If all those IFBB Pro body builders, amateur bodybuilders & even gym junkies with 20 inches or more, are pumping themselves full of hormones, GH, & pills to get that 20 inches ripped, than what makes you think you can get 20 inches ripped to the bone w/o steroids/PH?

Highly unlikely. I'm not trying to criticise you, but I have a difficult time believeing that.

So then if you took steroids I'm guessing you'd hit 25 inch arms ripped to the bone?

Duncans Donuts



> Your argument is anecdotal and speculative.
> 
> How are muscles that share an insertion point, which contract to perform the same function, individually targetted by varying the grip? I'm just playing devil's advocate. Be more specific in an anatomical or scientific way.



Well those exercises have been developed for a reason.

Saturday Fever



> Variety. If you actually read anything in this thread instead of telling us about all these great friends you have and what you've seen, you would notice I've ALREADY ANSWERED THAT QUESTION TWICE.



Than what's the point of variety?

Variety or varriation? Variety IMO means that you will be hitting the muscles in a different way.

So are ppl like Roy Callender or Arnold Schwarzenegger clueless & don't know anything?

Roy always gives his clients new routines, angles & grips every 3-4 weeks so that the muscles get developed from different angles therefore giving an over all fuller & stronger muscle.

But I guess those guys with 30+yrs experience don't know anything


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## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

Julz



> 2 years ago my arms were at 20", and I've never taken a PH/steroid in my life. Did straight BB curls, DB hammers and either DB preacher or DB Concentration curls.



But you do follow the same bicep routine as I do.

What about triceps?

close-grip, e-zbar extensions of some sort, & tricep pushdowns of some sort?


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## Duncans Donuts (Sep 3, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> But I guess those guys with 30+yrs experience don't know anything



You have yet to point out why, anatomically, you believe what you say.  Your argument, summarily, is that the exercises themselves wouldn't exist if they didn't work, that a number of bodybuilders believe they do (which is essentially useless, as it's been pointed out to me, because having a world class physique is a composite of genetics, steroids, and hard work; such things have nothing to do with specific knowledge of anatomy, kiniseology, or physiology), and that a few of your friends have seen first hand that your principle belief is true.

Unfortunately, these things are not really in the realm of evidence.


----------



## Julz (Sep 3, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Julz
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Saturday Fever (Sep 3, 2004)

> So are ppl like Roy Callender or Arnold Schwarzenegger clueless & don't know anything?



Heh, funny that you would mention guys filled to the brim on steroids in their prime. You could get a good amount of abdominal hypertrophy from taking a healthy shit when you're as juiced as those two.

Likewise, you buy the hype. They're big names so you assume they're geniuses. Think again. They aren't stupid people, I would assume having never met them, but just because they have a big name doesn't mean what they're doing is worthwhile. A trainer has a job to do. His job is to get people coming back because if they don't come back, he/she doesn't make money. Any name can create bullshit routines for newbies and hook them on the FLEX mentality.

Hell, they've done it to you.


----------



## Saturday Fever (Sep 3, 2004)

Variety doesn't mean "different angles" either. Variety means you don't progress if your CNS adapts. Variety stops that from happening.


----------



## Julz (Sep 3, 2004)

.





			
				Johnnny said:
			
		

> But you do follow the same bicep routine as I do. Probably not (though I've done a similiar one). I don't directly train biceps like I used to
> 
> What about triceps? They make up 2/3 of the mass in one's upper arm, and most people in a gym fail to realize that that's where 2/3 of one's arm size comes from and therefore should be trained as much if not more than biceps.
> 
> close-grip, e-zbar extensions of some sort, & tricep pushdowns of some sort? All of the above


----------



## Saturday Fever (Sep 3, 2004)

Here's a simple analogy for you people who keep using "experience" as an excuse to believe something. I worked with a guy when I was 19. He was a member of my development team, and we were developing the world's largest network (UUNet). This guy had been involved with DARPA and the internet since before I was born. So by a count of years, he had 20 years experience.

Nothing this guy ever did in R&D was worth a shit. It always failed peer review, it always failed in the lab, it was just pure shit.

So there are two ways to look at this guy:

1) He's got 20 years experience, so no matter what he's obviously a genius on the subject.
2) The guy is an idiot with a nice looking resume.

So the next time you mention someone or their experience, figure out which of those two items best describes them.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

Julz



> Probably not (though I've done a similiar one). I don't directly train biceps like I used to



But I follow a routine that you previously just mentioned for biceps.



> They make up 2/3 of the mass in one's upper arm, and most people in a gym fail to realize that that's where 2/3 of one's arm size comes from and therefore should be trained as much if not more than biceps.



Damn straight. Many guys don't even bother with triceps, but I always hit my triceps hard & use my close grip as my main compound & mass builder for triceps.



> No, not "ripped to the bone". Yes, around 250 lbs, and at around 12%BF (6'2")



Still pretty lean, but again no critcisim or accusations intended, but most individuals with those stats & arm size are on juice that I know & have met.

If you're natural with those stats, you must be competing at the IFBB level?



> Eating right, hard work and VARIETY. And no, I don't "think" that.



I'm still not sure about that as I believe "SUPPLEMENTS" are the only way to get to that level.

Some of my lifts especially b4 my thyroid condition started in 2000 when I was 225 with about 12-14% BF as it varied, my lifts were stronger than some of the known steroid users in my gym but they were much bigger than me & they weren't lifting as much for certain compound lifts.




> Nor am I criticizing you, but trying to show that its possible whether you "beleive" me or not. I've been at this for 19 years and can attest that, while yes, its tough to get to that point, no, its not impossible. I have been blessed with larger arms than most others, so that made it easier for me than someone who isn't



I'm still very skeptical about ppl being genetically blessed for one body part to another.

Look at Scott Steiner (Big Poppa Pump), he was clearly a genetic freak, but look at what he's pumping himself full of & the health problems he's going to have at such a young age.



> since I don't play guessing games



Well I know all of us who are natural can't help but wonder.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

Saturday Fever



> Heh, funny that you would mention guys filled to the brim on steroids in their prime. You could get a good amount of abdominal hypertrophy from taking a healthy shit when you're as juiced as those two.
> 
> Likewise, you buy the hype. They're big names so you assume they're geniuses. Think again. They aren't stupid people, I would assume having never met them, but just because they have a big name doesn't mean what they're doing is worthwhile. A trainer has a job to do. His job is to get people coming back because if they don't come back, he/she doesn't make money. Any name can create bullshit routines for newbies and hook them on the FLEX mentality.
> 
> Hell, they've done it to you.



Yes they are steroid enhanced freaks, but they still know what they are doing training wise.

Roy's routines & the routines he provides for clients consist of many different grips, angles, bars, dumbbells & so on as he's clearly stated that these variations build the muscle in different ways.

So even though they're steroid enhanced I still believe they know what they're doing & talking about otherwise they woudln't have clients.


----------



## Saturday Fever (Sep 3, 2004)

So you acknowledge they would grow by taking a shit. And yet you STILL think their arms look the way they look because of the way they workout and not the steroids. You're just being stupid now. 

And I don't give two shits what he's clearly stated. What he has clearly stated is scientifically impossible. And save me another speech about what you think and feel and how it somehow relates to some guy at your gym and your thyroid condition. It is not possible. Plain and simple. If it WERE possible, then it could be proven. Like everything else in the world. But it can't, therefore it isn't. 

I'll come back to this thread when you ever start posting intelligently. (read: I'm done repeating myself to you children)


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## Randy (Sep 3, 2004)

I think someone needs to close this thread


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## PreMier (Sep 3, 2004)

I think this thread should be read by all...  just to see what a complete dumb fuck John boy is.


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## Rocco32 (Sep 3, 2004)

I'm not getting into this argument, it just makes my day to see clueless Johhhny frustrate so many people with so little effort!!  

Jake- To know what a complete idiot Johhny is, you can read ANY thread he's posted in. But you already know that!


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## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

Saturday Fever



> So you acknowledge they would grow by taking a shit. And yet you STILL
> think their arms look the way they look because of the way they workout
> and not the steroids. You're just being stupid now.
> 
> ...



Yes I acknowledge they take a lot of sh!t.

But there are ppl who take a lot of sh!t & don't do complete arm routines, or just doing standing barbell curls & they have big arms yes, but have overall sh!t arm development compared to someone who's somewhat smaller & does a complete routine with all grips, & angles hitting the muscle from different angles.

So let me get this straight, if all you do is standing barbell curls for the rest of your life you will achieve overall arm development with size?

& if all you do for the rest of your life is flat or decline bench press your upper chest will still be exploding through the roof & if the odd day once every 4 months you decide to do incline bench press, you'll automatically be able to hit 325lbs on the incline bench press for reps & then skip it for another 5 months & expect to do the same weight w/o ever doing incline presses?

Give me a f#$kn' break.


Premier



> I think this thread should be read by all... just to see what a complete dumb fuck John boy is.





So I guess you feel the same way about Robert DiMaggio & Gopro then eh?

They both feel it's important to use different grips & angles to fully develop the muscle.

I'd like to see your bicep & chest routine by the way.



First power lifters are much different than bodybuilders. How many power lifters do you see ripped to the bone at 300lbs with a 22 inch ripped arm?

Not very many. Power lifters mostly consist of compound movements to build overall size and strength.

Those 2 power lifters who are nationally ranked (& one of them was Worlds Strongest Man 2003 BTW) these guys never do concentration curls or preacher curls.

They never do many tricep extensions especially on different angles.

They mostly concentrate on the core compound movements for each muscle.

Yes they are huge but their over all shape & definition is lacking. One of them has low BF% yet he still has a bulky solid shape & not much muscle seperation compared to a body builder.

They train differently than bodybuilders do & even with steroids, they still have a different physique even though they are much bigger & stronger than many bodybuilders, they still have a different physique.

When I played football I trained more like a powerlifter & had a descent amount of body definition, but more of a solid bulky shape.

After I stopped playing I switched to training more like a body builder & within a couple of years I noticed a huge change in my physique for the better. Everything was coming out more & showing more. & I never trained my cardio, or diet only changed my training.

I think this proves a lot about how exercises affect the body.

Just take a look at the top Worlds Strongest Men like Magnus Magnusson or Bill Kaizmer in his prime compared to Frank Sepe or Jay Cutler.

2 different physiques completely.

Franco Columu was an exception, although he did World's Strongest Man competitions, he trained like a body builder.

It's the training itself despite the drugs that build the physique.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

rock4832



> I'm not getting into this argument, it just makes my day to see
> clueless Johhhny frustrate so many people with so little effort!!
> 
> Jake- To know what a complete idiot Johhny is, you can read ANY thread
> he's posted in. But you already know that!



So I guess that you feel that Robert DiMaggio & Gopro are idiots to eh?

B/c they feel the same way I do about different angles & grips.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

& this brings me to my next question.


Take a top Worlds Strongest Man Vs. a top IFBB Pro.


Both are on high doses of steroids.

Yet there are 2 big differences.

1. Their training methods

2. Their physiques that they've created by their training methods with the help of steroids.

Both physiques are completely different.

Both training methods are completely different

Therefore creating 2 different shapes.

So the training style & form, exercises, grips & angles paly a major role in what type of physique you build.

It's that damn simple despite the use of steroids.


----------



## PreMier (Sep 3, 2004)

Just because I think your a moron, doesnt mean I think someone else is.  I dont group people because of a similar thought that they have, like you and the nazi's.


----------



## Rocco32 (Sep 3, 2004)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Just because I think your a moron, doesnt mean I think someone else is.  I dont group people because of a similar thought that they have, like you and the nazi's.


Exactly. I like Gopro and Robert. Your not a moron because of that. Your a moron because nothing ever gets through to you and all you do is repeat yourself over and over. Can you even assimilate new information?


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

rock4832



> Exactly. I like Gopro and Robert. Your not a moron because of that. Your a moron because nothing ever gets through to you and all you do is repeat yourself over and over. Can you even assimilate new information?



Why bitch at me?

I feel exactly the same way that Gopro & Robert DiMaggio do regarding this topic.

So if you're calling me a moron b/c I feel this way than you're also calling them a moron for feeling the same way I do.

& if you say I'm the only moron than that makes you a hipocrit b/c they both feel the same way that I do regarding this topic.

& neither of you have answered my question why top powerlifters/world's strongest men who are on sh!t loads of steroids vs. Top body buidlers who are on sh!t loads of steroids have different physiques?

Answer that question, I'd reallllllly like to hear your response?

If the exercise done & grips, angles & variations don't make a difference than power lifters & bodybuilders would have exactly the same physique.

Point made.


----------



## Rocco32 (Sep 3, 2004)

I say your a moron because again you did not understand my post as you do not understand most posts and again you just repeated yourself! MORON.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 3, 2004)

I apologize, but if you are implying that if you are working out with 400 pounds on a flat bench your upper chest will be weak and undeveloped, you are ludicrously insane.

If you're saying that, because I choose to do barbell curls and pullups exclusively in my bicep routine, I'll have underdeveloped biceps, you are just wrong.

And as far as powerlifters and bodybuilders are concerned, bodybuilders take slin, growth hormone, and other roids to get big.  Their diet also reflects this.  They also compete in dehydrated states.

Powerlifters typically are unconcerned with anything other than how much weight is being moved.  Are they juicing?  I'm sure some are.  But with a different philosophy than bodybuilders.  Different goals, different means.  And as for lean powerlifters not having the same symmetry as bodybuilders: powerlifters are not dehydrated like bodybuilders are.  Dehydration would proove DISASTEROUS for powerlifters.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

rock4832



> I say your a moron because again you did not understand my post as you do not understand most posts and again you just repeated yourself! MORON.



This tells me that you're the moron as you have not answered my question on why powerlifters & bodybuilders both steroid enhanced or natural have 2 different physiques.

I guess this is your only way of answering as you don't obviously have an answer to a totally valid question regarding this topic.


Plus once again you are continuing to call Robert DiMaggio & Gopro morons b/c they feel the same way I do about grips, & angles developing muscles in different ways.

I bet if someone else came on said what I'm saying it wouldn't be a problem.


Anyway you guys who don't feel the same way that we do, continue training that way & we'll continue training our way.


But I still strongly agree with both Robert DiMaggio & Gopro regarding this topic.


----------



## Rocco32 (Sep 3, 2004)

You just go on. I'm not here to argue for or against grips. I'm just here to PUT YOU DOWN but your so far gone you don't even get it!!


----------



## PreMier (Sep 3, 2004)

LOL!


----------



## Rocco32 (Sep 3, 2004)

It blows my mind. How can someone BE so dense?


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

Duncans Donuts



> I apologize, but if you are implying that if you are working out with 400 pounds on a flat bench your upper chest will be weak and undeveloped, you are ludicrously insane.
> 
> If you're saying that, because I choose to do barbell curls and pullups exclusively in my bicep routine, I'll have underdeveloped biceps, you are just wrong.



I still don't see how your upper chest will be strong if you don't train it even with a 400lb bench press?



> And as far as powerlifters and bodybuilders are concerned, bodybuilders take slin, growth hormone, and other roids to get big. Their diet also reflects this. They also compete in dehydrated states.



Yes bodybuilders take various testosterones, horse hormones, the GH/Insulin stack & other hormones.

But the powerlifters are also on these substances to get that huge, I over heard the 2 powerlifters in my gym talking about what they were planning on taking to bulk up & testosterone was one of the items on their list.

Powerlifters typically are unconcerned with anything other than how much weight is being moved. Are they juicing? I'm sure some are. But with a different philosophy than bodybuilders. Different goals, different means. And as for lean powerlifters not having the same symmetry as bodybuilders: powerlifters are not dehydrated like bodybuilders are. Dehydration would proove DISASTEROUS for powerlifters. [/quote]

Yes this is true, but even in the off season body builders still tend to have overall better physiques than powerlifters.

For contest bodybuilders take dieuretics which is unhealthy.

Not only do body builders take steroids


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

rock4832



> You just go on. I'm not here to argue for or against grips. I'm just here to PUT YOU DOWN but your so far gone you don't even get it!!



What a poor immature little kid you are. I guess you don't have anything better to do than put me down. I feel bad for you.

If you want to insult ppl, go back to highschool or better yet kindergarten as you just showed your true mentality.

The point of this is the grips, angles & so on, not to insult ppl.

You are also proving you don't know anything either other wise you would've answered some of my questions.

Says a lot about your character.


----------



## Rocco32 (Sep 3, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> rock4832
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha, LOL. I got put down by Johhnnny!!   The point of this thread is for you to learn something, ANYTHING, but you don't. That's what amazes me. Your like a rat in a maze that keeps running into a dead end, doesn't get anywhere but will continue doing it till he dies. I have to say it. Johhnnnyy, you truly are amazing!!


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 3, 2004)

The pectorals bring the arm across the front of the body.  This is it's primary function.  When I do flat db presses my chest, upper and lower, contracts to move the weight.  My upper chest is not flimsy by any means.  Since you choose to use no anatomical basis for your argument and just various anecdotes, I will do the same.  My upper chest is big, as is my middle chest, and my lower chest.  With no work done on an incline press.  With such a low standard of evidence, this disprooves your contention that people who can bench press 400 pounds on flat bench will have undeveloped, weak, flimsy upper chests.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

rock4832



> Haha, LOL. I got put down by Johhnnny!!  The point of this thread is for you to learn something, ANYTHING, but you don't. That's what amazes me. Your like a rat in a maze that keeps running into a dead end, doesn't get anywhere but will continue doing it till he dies. I have to say it. Johhnnnyy, you truly are amazing!!



What I've learned is the same as what Robert DiMaggio & Gopro have learned in regards to training.

I still agree with them like it or not.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

Duncans Donuts



> The pectorals bring the arm across the front of the body. This is it's primary function. When I do flat db presses my chest, upper and lower, contracts to move the weight. My upper chest is not flimsy by any means. Since you choose to use no anatomical basis for your argument and just various anecdotes, I will do the same. My upper chest is big, as is my middle chest, and my lower chest. With no work done on an incline press. With such a low standard of evidence, this disprooves your contention that people who can bench press 400 pounds on flat bench will have undeveloped, weak, flimsy upper chests.



This isn't a criticism, but I just can't help wondering if you're on any juice?

I know that with juice users, very often other muscles grow with not as much work as opposed to a natural training person. 

One of the guys with 20 inch arms in my gym who's told me about his roid use only does gay little machine exercises for his chest, almost no free weights & dumbbells.

He does machines for many of his exercises. He's told me that if he wasn't on roids, he'd have to train more with free weights/db's or he'd shrink. It's all the juice he's on that's keeping him at 8% BF & huge at around 245lbs at 5ft9.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 3, 2004)

No sir, I'm not juicing.  I'm a type one diabetic, so I take insulin.  

In any case, I respect your opinion that you have to do a load of exercises from different angles (using different grips) to achieve the best results.  However, to imply that results can not be achieved (paticularly on the bicep, which is a relatively tiny muscle that would tolerate much less stress than a calf, or the compendium of muscles on the back) with a small amount of heavily intense working sets is something I would have to disagree with.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

Duncans Donuts



> No sir, I'm not juicing.  I'm a type one diabetic, so I take insulin.
> 
> In any case, I respect your opinion that you have to do a load of
> exercises from different angles to achieve the best results.  However, to
> ...



Well if you're really not juicing I respect that.

Yeah insulin does help a lot. I have a buddy I played ball with who had that type of diabetes & also had to take insulin.

He said it helped a lot with training, & muscular size/strength.

I do somewhat agree with you on your 2nd paragraph, but as I've said b4 I know what happens to my body & muscles if I stop doing certain exercises.

I strongly believe that hitting muscles with various grips, & angles will give an overall full muscular development.

BTW I just wanted your opinion, do you think a 50-55lb dumbbell in each hand for concentration curls for a 200lb natural training person is strong for concentration curls?

I remember back when I was a young teenager when I couldn't do more than 25lbs with trouble

Just wanted your opinion.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 3, 2004)

I think 50 pounds on a concentration curl is definitely good.  I always try and add reps or add weight to the working load every time I workout.  Clearly it is important to work progressively.

I won't say that changing grips and angles and such is a bad thing; I would consider it more important to, as far as the exercise you are doing is concerned, focus on adding reps or weight.  That is more important than doing a dozen exercises.


----------



## MTN WARRIOR (Sep 3, 2004)

http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/BicepsBrachii.html

This says the Saturday is full of shit.  Supination makes a difference and hand position makes a difference.  Insertion point makes no difference.  Mechanics is what we are talking about here.  Put two pistons, attached on the outside of a 2 X 4, attached to the same points.  Rotate them so one piston is on top, and contract them.  One will do more work, one eccentric, one concentric.  Having the same insertion point does not make a difference when you rotate the appendage.  Sorry Saturday, but your argument holds not technical water.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

Duncans Donuts



> I think 50 pounds on a concentration curl is definitely good. I always try and add reps or add weight to the working load every time I workout. Clearly it is important to work progressively.
> 
> I won't say that changing grips and angles and such is a bad thing; I would consider it more important to, as far as the exercise you are doing is concerned, focus on adding reps or weight. That is more important than doing a dozen exercises.



Yeah I feel the same way, every couple of weeks or so I always try to add 5lbs everyone of my movements.

I always keep strict form & a muscle contraction of half a beat at the top of the concentration with that 50lb for concentration curl to ensure I'm getting full benefit of each rep.

But adding reps &/or weight I always try and do no matter what angle or grip I'm using for a particular exercise.

MTN WARRIOR



> http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/BicepsBrachii.html
> 
> This says the Saturday is full of shit. Supination makes a difference and hand position makes a difference. Insertion point makes no difference. Mechanics is what we are talking about here. Put two pistons, attached on the outside of a 2 X 4, attached to the same points. Rotate them so one piston is on top, and contract them. One will do more work, one eccentric, one concentric. Having the same insertion point does not make a difference when you rotate the appendage. Sorry Saturday, but your argument holds not technical water.



That was a great, informative link you just gave, I just bookmarked it.

Thanks a lot I appreciate it.


----------



## Terok`Nor (Sep 3, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Terok' Nor
> 
> wow defensive aren't we?
> 
> ...



what really how interesting so just on weekends or nights *I DONT GIVE HALF A FUK*. YOU ARE A BLOCKHEAD.

tell you what since I've got some time these days I'm going to do a best of johnny the MONG


----------



## Terok`Nor (Sep 3, 2004)

pumpchaser said:
			
		

> You just have to luv resident "experts" like Saturday. Are you kidding me? Of course the grip makes a difference as to which part of the muscle that is hit, i've experienced the differences many times.



probably from more PUMP ey PUMPchaser


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 3, 2004)

Muscles contract from point of origin to point of insertion.  Because the bicep itself has the primary directive of supinating the hand, reversing this grip will indeed put the brachialis in the strong position.

However; "only as a muscle loses mechanical efficency, due to the force deviating from a straight line, wherein it increases its girth at the point of full contraction, will those myofibrils toward the center of the muscle belly be called upon to work.  This is basic mechanical physics of muscle contraction..."

Since both the bicep brachii and the brachialis contract together, regardless of who is in the strongest position, that means that both will grow if the maximum load is applied at the point of full contraction.

In accordance with this logic, when you contract, for example, 100 pounds on a barbell curl when you have fully flexed your bicep, this 100 pounds is also being absorbed by the weaker muscle, the brachialis.  If you are using a lesser load, say 50 pounds, and you contract it maximally with the bicep in the weaker position, you are only applying half the force at the point wherein the most muscle mass will be recruited to handle the load.

Both muscles will be recruited to handle the load, despite your grip.  Few will argue this.  It is my belief that by placing the brachii in the strongest position, you will be able to use more weight in the flexed position, and therefore stimulate greater gains by recruting more muscle in both the "inner" and "outer" bicep.


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## gr81 (Sep 3, 2004)

I don't know why you guys even give this moron the time of day. Every time I have debated with him, if thats what you wanna call it that is, everyone in the thread takes one side, and johnnny takes the other, and no matter how many people tell him one thing, we are all wrong and he is right, bottom line. If 100 people are saying one thing, and johnny says the other, everyone else but him must be crazy. he is delusional. Oh and i am sure I am gonna get a reply thats half a page politely telling me how I am wrong and thats my opinion, but it doesn't matter. Just stop arguing with him. hes a fool, never argue with a fool


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## pmech (Sep 3, 2004)

Its like watching the retarded neighbor kid walk into the wall repeatedly.


----------



## Rocco32 (Sep 3, 2004)

pmech said:
			
		

> Its like watching the retarded neighbor kid walk into the wall repeatedly.


LOL, I couldn't have put it better myself!


----------



## P-funk (Sep 3, 2004)

All I have left to say in this thread is that I think Premier statments were abosuluty genius.  Once again you have impressed me buddy.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

Julz



> John, have you heard of Beverly International? If you'd like a link, pm me and I'll send it (not sure of this sites policies for giving out links?). They're one of the better suppliment companies and have high quality supps that many natural, drug and PH free bodybuilers use. They also offer nutritional counselling and training advice for drug free competitors, and put on/sponsor several more natural competitions. Those guys get to under 6% w/o drugs or PH's, and are tested at shows. They may not have 20" arms, but they're as ripped as any roid user would be when in contest shape.



I'd like to check out that line of supplements.

As for the rest of your story very interesting.

To gr81 I thought for once we were on the same page but I guess not.

I have nothing against you gr81 or anyone for that matter.

But why harass someone b/c they believe something & have a set opinion is beyond me.

So I guess Robert DiMaggio, Gopro & I are all morons here for believing what we believe regarding this topic eh?

Oh well.

By the way have any of you bothered to read the link MTN WARRIOR supplied regarding the bicep?

Here it is again: http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/BicepsBrachii.html

Anyway I won't hold any opinions against any of as I guess you guys know everything about everything regarding training.

I guess Robert DiMaggio & Gopro's opinion (same as mine) is completely garbage & false. Oh well.

I will train the way I train & so will they as well as believing what we believe.

You guys believe what you want, & we'll believe what we want. 
To each his own.

Next I bet one of you guys is going to say that all Ronnie Coleman built his arms with drugs & only doing barbell curls w/o any preachers/concentration curls or hammer curls.

Now he's at the point that he doesn't need to do much else than barbell curls, but I'm sure in the beginnning for years he did a full bicep routine hitting the bicep from all angles & grips to build the biceps that he has now.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 3, 2004)

I know this forum isn't the best, but take a look at how many variations of bicep exercises that there are with numerous grips & angles & read what the benefits of each different grip & angle gives to the bicep development.



http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise1.htm


----------



## Saturday Fever (Sep 4, 2004)

I read that link. I suggest you dense as fuck retards reread it yourselves. Pay special attention to the specific wording that is used. Again, you dumb fucks have backed what I've been saying, and again idadvertently. Why do you keep doing this to yourselves? 

Now this whole "bodybuilder vs powerlifter physique" and Johnny's apparently infinite knowledge and friends that cover every possible aspect in life. Despite having friends in every single aspect of life, you apparently are blind. Have you ever seen a top level powerlifter on a diet similar to a bodybuilder? One who maybe gives two shits about bodyfat and whatnot? There are a few. And quite frankly, if you don't think their physique dwarfs most bodybuilders, you're in denial. But that would be stating the obvious. 

Since you've decided to ride gopro and DiMaggio (although if you actually read what DiMaggio said you'd see he says you're wrong) in your argument, as evidenced by you trying to validate what you say by saying it's what they say (which is an absolutely HORRIBLE debate technique), I figured maybe I'd let you in on something. Take a look at DiMaggio's physique. It's in his avatar. Then take a look at Phil Harrington's physique. They are about the same height and weight. And their physiques are damn near IDENTICAL! How can this possibly be using your ridiculous logic (although it's anything BUT logic)?? I mean, how the fuck can a bodybuilder and a powerlifter have identical physiques? Oh, that would be because they're two guys who diet healthy and , assumingly, very similarly.

But, I'm sure you know a guy at your gym who says you have to do curls with your ring finer pointing outward and one foot off the ground if you really want the inner upper biceps to grow. So you'll disregard this whole post, as usual, and start talking about your thyroid problem again. But that's what you do. 

And next time you use a phrase like "Point made", please try to actually make a point instead of spewing shit. Thanks.


----------



## Rocco32 (Sep 4, 2004)

Saturday Fever said:
			
		

> I read that link. I suggest you dense as fuck retards reread it yourselves. Pay special attention to the specific wording that is used. Again, you dumb fucks have backed what I've been saying, and again idadvertently. Why do you keep doing this to yourselves?
> 
> Now this whole "bodybuilder vs powerlifter physique" and Johnny's apparently infinite knowledge and friends that cover every possible aspect in life. Despite having friends in every single aspect of life, you apparently are blind. Have you ever seen a top level powerlifter on a diet similar to a bodybuilder? One who maybe gives two shits about bodyfat and whatnot? There are a few. And quite frankly, if you don't think their physique dwarfs most bodybuilders, you're in denial. But that would be stating the obvious.
> 
> ...


----------



## gr81 (Sep 4, 2004)

> To gr81 I thought for once we were on the same page but I guess not.
> 
> I have nothing against you gr81 or anyone for that matter.
> 
> But why harass someone b/c they believe something & have a set opinion is beyond me.



you are not gettting harrased b/c your opinion differs, your just too niave to see how OCD you are being. you are completely anal and you only choose to focus on a small part of an argument instead of lookin at the big picture man. I have nothing against you either, shit I think this is hilarious, but its your social skills that are lackin. Its like even if you were in a room by yourself, you'd still be arguing about something, no matter how inconsequential the topic, ya dig. This thread is like riding a merry-go-round for gods sake.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 4, 2004)

All I'm going to say is training with different grips & angles on different exercises with cables, barbells, dumbbells & so on is very important to develop all your muscles in different ways.

As far as what I've read here & in the past concerning Robert DiMaggio & Gopro's statements, they have agreed that using different grips & angles builds the muscles in different ways.

If you're doing flat close grip bench press for triceps & then switch incline close-grip bench press for triceps you are hitting the tricep from a different angle like it or not therefore building the muscle in a different way.

Let's compare flat bench press to close-grip bench press.

You are working your triceps much more with the close-grip vs. flat bench.

It's not rocket science.

Why are there sooo many bicep exercises describing how each exercise hits the bicep in all those different ways in that link I supplied?

Anyway I know what I feel when I use a really wide grip bent over barbell rows Vs. narrow grip bent over barbell rows.

With a wider grip I've found that I build a wider, thicker back vs the regular narrow grip.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 4, 2004)

Sigh.


----------



## Saturday Fever (Sep 4, 2004)

Shoulda stayed out. Johnny the Troll is in full annoying force.


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## Terok`Nor (Sep 4, 2004)

my gawd you really aRE anal


----------



## Randy (Sep 4, 2004)

I wanted to ask a question in this thread....

Is it beneficial for building more uniform muscle growth to vary your grips when performing barbell curls?


----------



## gopro (Sep 4, 2004)

WOW! IS THIS STILL GOING ON!? I can't believe this point is still being argued. SNF will not change his opinion b/c he has learned what he has learned and he is loyal to it. Those who believe differently will probably also stick to their own opinions. I do not agree with SNF on most points but I respect his knowledge and his opinions, even though I think they are "narrow." I have seen/read/experienced enough to know that studies, textbooks, journals, etc, do not tell the entire story on what is going on with the human body. There are "experts" that ride both sides of this debate (among others), as well as studies that can prove or dissprove both sides as well. There are things that "should" happen according to the rules of "science" everday, but they don't, leaving scientists scratching their heads. Hell, I would have never, ever believed that a psychic medium could "speak to the dead" until I had an experience that changed my thinking forever...something that was truly life altering...something that taught me that there is no such thing as black and white.

Unless you have alot of scientific studies and/or tests and/or journal articles written by people that SNF feels are credible (of which I am sure there are few), be prepared to have your ass handed to you in a debate with him, or at the very least, be prepared to "not convince him of anything" different from what he already "knows."

Guys, use your various grips, exercises, and angles...it works...and even if it didn't work for the reasons we believe, it sure makes training more interesting


----------



## Terok`Nor (Sep 4, 2004)

just as a point, and I don't plan to pursue the argument here..was reading the something about the irrelevance of EMG studies 'showing' isolating/shaping/yada is possible


----------



## Randy (Sep 5, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> WOW! Guys, use your various grips, exercises, and angles...it works...and even if it didn't work for the reasons we believe, it sure makes training more interesting


This was the very point that I had made previously... Even if those who believe that alternating grips does nothing to encourage more even muscle growth.... It sure couldn't degrade your growth potential either.  Just by chance it does hold some benefits, those who are alternating their grips stand the chance to achieve more uniform growth    And if not, then as gopro says it will surely help make your training more interesting.

Nice point Gopro..


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 5, 2004)

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/excercise/standing barebell curls.htm


http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/superwidegripbarbellcurls.htm


http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/excercise/INCLINEDUMBELLCURLS.htm



http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/onearminclinebenchisolationcurls.htm


http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/standingwallcurls.htm


http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/inlcineinnerbicepscurl.htm


http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/lyinghammercurls.htm


http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/inclinebenchreversebarbellcurls.htm



http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/standinginnerbicepscurl.htm



http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/excercise/hammercurls.htm


http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/excercise/LYING DUMBELL curls.htm



http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/dumbbellpreachercurls.htm



http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/animalcurls.htm



http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/seateddumbbellconcentrationcurls.htm


http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/zottmancurls.htm


Just to name a few bicep exercises & their purpose.


----------



## P-funk (Sep 5, 2004)

You already posted a link to this stuff.


----------



## P-funk (Sep 5, 2004)

Here are some of my favorite quotes from the descritions of the exercises:

"This exercise works the biceps, forearms and the bracialis.  Which gives your arms a 3-d look!  This also emphasizes the stretching portion of the exercise, and also promotes complete development. "

"Super wide grip barbell curls add density and thickness to the inner biceps.  "

"Here We Add Peak To The biceps"

and my favorite:

"Here we add density and thickness to the lower aspect of your biceps, for sleeve busting arms! "


LMAO....sleeve busting arms!!  Is that a medical term?  Who writes this garbage.


----------



## gr81 (Sep 5, 2004)

^^ ha  HA ha ha ha


----------



## Randy (Sep 5, 2004)

P-funk said:
			
		

> LMAO....sleeve busting arms!! Is that a medical term? Who writes this garbage.


Me,  I'm working toward the Big Bulging Bouncer Bi's (Was that in there?)


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 5, 2004)

All I'm going to say is do the fn' exercises.

Yes I've already posted that link, but I've posted a whole bunch of different bicep exercises to show the importance of different grips & angles.

Do the damn exercises & grow/develop your biceps.

But don't forget your triceps as they make up have your arm.


----------



## Randy (Sep 5, 2004)

What is a tricep Johnnny?


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 5, 2004)

This will be the 201st post in this thread.  And hopefully it will also be the last.  Do whatever the fuck you want and smile happily while you do it.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 5, 2004)

> What is a tricep Johnnny?




Nice one Randy.

Duncans Donuts, no one is disagreeing with you as you stated that grips & angles are important but you weren't sure how much of a difference they make.

Anyway that link provides a huge variety of exercises that will provide growth & development which is what we all want.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 5, 2004)

My personal opinion is I say WE just shut up, quit bickering, & do all the variations of bicep exercises listed on that link I supplied.

Do them & eating=growth/development.

Simple formula.


----------



## Arnold (Sep 5, 2004)

P-funk said:
			
		

> "Here we add density and thickness to the lower aspect of your biceps, for sleeve busting arms! "



wow, now we can even emphasize the lower part of the bicep? man, I am learning new things daily...so much for science.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 5, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> & do all the variations of bicep exercises listed on that link I supplied.




Not a chance in hell.


----------



## Arnold (Sep 5, 2004)

these two are just plain stupid:
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/superwidegripbarbellcurls.htm
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/inclinebenchreversebarbellcurls.htm


----------



## LAM (Sep 5, 2004)

well look at the site where they are from  ! lol


----------



## Arnold (Sep 5, 2004)

true!

Johnnny what the hell are you doing at abcbodybuilding.com anyway?


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 5, 2004)

I don't mean do all the variations at once in one workout.

That should be obvious.


Pic 3 of the exercises & do those for 3-4 weeks at a time b4 alternating them with 3 other exercises.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 5, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio



> true!
> 
> Johnnny what the hell are you doing at abcbodybuilding.com anyway?



I'm not a fan of there forum, but they do have a wide selection of good exercises for each muscle.

Some exercises I never knew of b4.


----------



## Rocco32 (Sep 5, 2004)

That's because they are crap exercises, LOL


----------



## Terok`Nor (Sep 5, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> do all the variations of bicep exercises listed on that link I supplied.


no


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 5, 2004)

If you did all of the exercises listed on that website just for your biceps (which are relatively small muscles) you'd be overtrained in a week.


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 5, 2004)

Duncans Donuts



> If you did all of the exercises listed on that website just for your biceps (which are relatively small muscles) you'd be overtrained in a week.



I guess you missed my last reply.

I only do 3 exercises, 3 sets each totaling 9 sets for biceps.

What I meant was I rotate each of the 3 exercise every 3-4 weeks.

Of course I didn't mean do all the exercises at once, of course you'd overtrain your biceps in a week.


----------



## Randy (Sep 5, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> these two are just plain stupid:
> http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/superwidegripbarbellcurls.htm
> http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/inclinebenchreversebarbellcurls.htm


#1 makes for a nice warmup stretch.... I used to do those with very light weight..


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 5, 2004)

Randy

I usually do barbell curls first then a hammer curl, & then a preacher/concentration curl in some manner.


----------



## Randy (Sep 5, 2004)

Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> If you did all of the exercises listed on that website just for your biceps (which are relatively small muscles) you'd be overtrained in a week.


It's all about rotation DD.  Obviously you wouldn't work all those in one bicep routine


----------



## Randy (Sep 5, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Randy
> 
> I usually do barbell curls first then a hammer curl, & then a preacher/concentration curl in some manner.


I've done that combination as well. But I rotate every 6 weeks... For one, to prevent my routine from getting boring, and two to change the intensity so my body doesn't get used to any given movement.

Now I need to focus on my lower body. I need to work my chicken legs  Also need some cardio.. I just yanked my bike down the other day and have been getting 20-30 minutes of peddlin in . Has been really nice here in California at night.. about 70-80 degrees .


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 5, 2004)

Randy said:
			
		

> It's all about rotation DD.  Obviously you wouldn't work all those in one bicep routine



Thanks for the tip.


----------



## PreMier (Sep 5, 2004)




----------



## gr81 (Sep 5, 2004)

why does it not shock me that randy and johnnny are on the same page.. why I woulda never guessed it.. lol


----------



## PreMier (Sep 5, 2004)

I dont even know why I am reading this thread still.  Fuck


----------



## Randy (Sep 5, 2004)

Premier and GR81....I'll tell you why you are both here... because providing sarcasm appears to be your best quality judging by the several messages I have read in various threads. When you see that someone is getting harassed you love to come in and put in your 2 cents. I can expect that from a low life piece of shit like GR81 
As for Johnnny... he's entiled to his opinions and beliefs like anyone else is... And as for being on the same page, Yes, varied grips was one subject that we seemed to agree on. Do we need to seek GR81 or Premiers permission before we can form an opinion about body building?  I think body building would be in piss poor shape if that was the case


----------



## Randy (Sep 5, 2004)

Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> Thanks for the tip.


DD your more than welcome.


----------



## Randy (Sep 5, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> The argument here will be what is "anatomically/physiologically" possible vs. what is perceived or felt. Also, there have been EMG studies done on the affects of various exercises on "areas" of muscles, with some believing in them, and others not (I suspect that SNF does not). The argument goes even deeper when discussing the area of a muscle that you feel is working more and whether that will affect growth more specifically in that area. This whole thing has been argued over and over on this board and probably every other, and is for the most part split.
> 
> 
> I do an exercise for biceps where I lay on an incline bench and turn my hands completely out to the sides and do curls. The angle of pull on this exercise is completely different than that of a standard curl with the palms facing straight ahead, and the area of my biceps that burns is also completely different. I have also observed a slight change in the shape of the outer portion of my biceps since I started to employ this exercise.
> ...


Gopro,

I seemed to have overlooked your message. Thanks for taking the time in providing your response... Your information is always appreciated.


----------



## gr81 (Sep 5, 2004)

> Premier and GR81....I'll tell you why you are both here... because providing sarcasm appears to be your best quality judging by the several messages I have read in various threads. When you see that someone is getting harassed you love to come in and put in your 2 cents. I can expect that from a low life piece of shit like GR81



0ooh cut me I bleed, and I am sure that P is crying himself to sleep tonight. We aren't sarcastic to everyone, just you two bitches. I ain't even gonna comment anymore but motha fucka, you can't hold a candle to my knowledge of this game and everyone here knows that. Have you ever even posted anything that wasn't A)  kissing someones ass taht knows more than you like above , or B)  a video of some dancing or singing baby thats supposed to be "cute". don't even make me pull those posts up either.. you can say that you don't like me which is ok by me, but please, don't embarrass yourself by trying to say that I don't know anything about BB. your a fan of the sport with nothing to offer this board. you look like a clown thats never lifted in his life, you got years before you can even see a physique like P's or mine so whats wit it punk, lift your skirt up you bitch


----------



## Randy (Sep 6, 2004)

Would love to cut you and make you bleed GR.

You are such a pathetic joke. You really think you are some piece don't you.

The only piece you are is a piece of shit. You think you have knowledge.... Well I don't see anyone worshiping your feet other than maybe Premier. I used to think he was pretty kewl in the past, but after seeing some of his posts lately my opinion has definitely changed. It???s probably your shining influence that turned him around  



To me it seems like you have some deep down jealousy or are very insecure about yourself. Since I always knew you were a loser from the first few times I read your pathetic few posts, the rest I paid no attention to. When I run across people like you who feeds on taking pop shots at people who are being teased or put down in the threads tells me a lot about the person. 



It didn???t take but a couple posts for me to see what a prick you really are GR, and after that I just ignored your posts. I sure saw no intelligence in any of them. But it seems you enjoy reading and analyzing all mine GR (I am truly flattered). Yes, I posted some dancing baby jokes. I didn???t know I had to meet a GR posting criteria before I posted my messages J. I really didn't post them to impress you. If you want to dig them up and post them, go right ahead GR (Is this the intelligence you are talking about) hmmmm. Once again, that just emphases how much of a child you really are. 



Now you tell me not to embarrass myself about saying you don't know anything about bodybuilding. GR, I told you before and I will tell you again ???I don't like you.??? I???m sorry if that hurts your feelings, but you are definitely not the kind of person I communicate with. Saying that, why the hell would I care what you know about bodybuilding  Please stop trying to flatter yourself! It just makes you look even more pathetic then you are. And what I offer to this board surely is none of your business. 



Lastly you brag about your physique... you really have to be joking  I think you need to look in the mirror a few more times. All I see is a puny little white punk that can't even distinguish his own race .



But I really am tired of wasting my time with you GR. Why don't you grow up and stop taking cheap cuts at people. Every time you post a message, unless it is another cheap shot directed to me I simply ignore it... I suggest you grow up and do the same. And I don???t care if I post purple elephants dancing on the street, why is it any of your concern. Stop trying to criticize other people???s posts, and worry about your own.




			
				gr81 said:
			
		

> 0ooh cut me I bleed, and I am sure that P is crying himself to sleep tonight. We aren't sarcastic to everyone, just you two bitches. I ain't even gonna comment anymore but motha fucka, you can't hold a candle to my knowledge of this game and everyone here knows that. Have you ever even posted anything that wasn't A) kissing someones ass taht knows more than you like above , or B) a video of some dancing or singing baby thats supposed to be "cute". don't even make me pull those posts up either.. you can say that you don't like me which is ok by me, but please, don't embarrass yourself by trying to say that I don't know anything about BB. your a fan of the sport with nothing to offer this board. you look like a clown thats never lifted in his life, you got years before you can even see a physique like P's or mine so whats wit it punk, lift your skirt up you bitch


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 6, 2004)

Ouch, that was some intense sh!t Randy.

Personally I don't think these 2 are worth a breath of air out of my mouth or a minute of my time.

As for arm training I used to rotate all of my body's exercises every 4-6 weeks, but I've found I have better results rotating them every 3-4 weeks at most.

But for over all arm development I follow that bicep pattern, 3 exercises & 3 sets each totaling 9 sets. 

Then for triceps I do close-grip bench press flat or on an incline, some sort of tricep extensions with a 45lb bar, e-zbar or db's & either flat or on an angle, then I finish off with some sort of cable push downs. Totaling 9 sets for triceps.

But I use many of the variations on that site.

Yes the site is sh!t, but they are most of the same exercises we see in Flex or Muscle Mag or M & F like it or not.

I've seen many of the exercises on that site in these magazines over the last 12yrs.


----------



## Randy (Sep 6, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> Ouch, that was some intense sh!t Randy.
> 
> Personally I don't think these 2 are worth a breath of air out of my mouth or a minute of my time.


Yeah, you're absolutely right about that.  It's just after reading the repetative digs and cut downs that they like to invoke on people, I had to jump in on that one.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 6, 2004)

The irony of this is the way you both have brough absolutely nothing significant to this thread, yet you bring up and deride Gr81 and Premier's BB knowledge.  Not one point you've made has been related to science, or theory; just sleeve busting nonsense.  The only thing of substance was brought by GoPro, and you didn't even accurately regurgitate his opinion, you just said "WELL I THINK YOU NEED TO CHANGE UP YOUR GRIPS" repetitively.



			
				Randy said:
			
		

> Lastly you brag about your physique... you really have to be joking  I think you need to look in the mirror a few more times. All I see is a puny little white punk that can't even distinguish his own race .




  I went back and re-read the thread, and you started the personal attacks.  You're telling Gr81 to look in the mirror and re-evaluate himself?      Let's hope the fucken humor in this isn't lost on anyone.

Oh, and for future reference Randy, anytime I say "thanks" to you (see my last post) consider it to be one hundred and fifty percent sarcasm.  

Thanks.


----------



## Randy (Sep 6, 2004)

Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> The irony of this is the way you both have brough absolutely nothing significant to this thread, yet you bring up and deride Gr81 and Premier's BB knowledge. Not one point you've made has been related to science, or theory; just sleeve busting nonsense. The only thing of substance was brought by GoPro, and you didn't even accurately regurgitate his opinion, you just said "WELL I THINK YOU NEED TO CHANGE UP YOUR GRIPS" repetitively.
> 
> I went back and re-read the thread, and you started the personal attacks. You're telling Gr81 to look in the mirror and re-evaluate himself?    Let's hope the fucken humor in this isn't lost on anyone.
> 
> ...


Duncan,

It is very cute the way you rush to the defense of GR and Premier, but this has absolutely nothing to do with their knowledge. As I clearly pointed out it has to do with their childish insults and cheap shots they both seem to enjoy directing toward people. 

Because you feel that Johnnny and I have not provided any material relating to science or theory, we should be made victims to GR and Premiers cheap childish insults. Sometimes Johnnny repeats himself and keeps revisiting topics in the thread. Does this mean he should be ridiculed. All seems pretty childish to me. And it is funny how people from this thread have asked themselves....Gee why do I stay here and continue to listen to this stuff? (and other similar sarcastic remarks)... Why the hell don't they unsubscribe to the thread if they are no longer interested. Not insult people for their comments. And have you thought that maybe people just don't have all the background and knowledge on the subject DD. Maybe that is why they are not providing points relating to science and theory. Does everyone have to post scientific theories, come on now. Many here are beginning bodybuilders just looking for some good advice from some of the experienced members here. They don't need to hear the bullshit from the arrogant people that just want to make them feel inferior and belittled. When you are knowledeable you don't have to do these things, and for that you are well respected. You don't have to try to advertise your knowledge and try to prove things to people. This is what I like about GOPRO. He is probably one of the most knowledgeable people here and does not have to come across like he is bragging and throwing his knowledge around and have to belittle people. He is intelligent and furthermore clearly is educated, has manners, and knows how to treat people.

My comments directed toward GR and Premier (Primarily GR) stemmed from my past experiences of witnessing numerous instances of their childish insults. As I mentioned in my post, I don't like GR (That obviously is clear). I don't give a damn how knowledable he is. Maybe if he could combine some of his knowledge with some manners and a little courtesy toward others he would be much more respected here.





			
				Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> If you did all of the exercises listed on that website just for your biceps (which are relatively small muscles) you'd be overtrained in a week.


As for your "Thank You" I appreciate your pointing out that it was 150% sarcasm. God I hope I don't lose any sleep over that comment.  Join the GR band wagon DD. You obviously have proven that you have the intellect for it.    With a comment like you made there, you are the one that deserves the sarcasm.  Do you really think someone would take on all those exercises in one routine?


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 6, 2004)

I can't argue with that Randy.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 6, 2004)

Randy, are you really trying to demean my intellect?  You have no substance, you know nothing about bodybuilding except what you try to regurgitate from your hero GoPro (whom I respect, because he formulates his opinions, regardless of whether I agree with him or not).

Join the GR bandwagon?  I don't have to, I can think for myself.  I don't have to rehash other peoples beliefs and pretend to know more than I actually do.  You are 40, you know nothing about bodybuilding (evidenced by your claim of 18 inch arms in the photo gallery.  Impressive    ), and you started the personal attacks before Gr81 or anyone else did.

But don't try and put me down, I'm half your age, been training for 2 years, and have seen 10 times the success that you will ever you washed up, over the hill, conceited faggot.  Keep on blasting those arms, tough guy.  I'm sure your sleeves are begging for mercy.


----------



## Randy (Sep 6, 2004)

Duncan, Did you read my last response?   It seems you better read it again.
Then if you still don't get it,  read it a couple more times. 
I'm tired of wasting my time with the GR crowd 



			
				Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> Randy, are you really trying to demean my intellect? You have no substance, you know nothing about bodybuilding except what you try to regurgitate from your hero GoPro (whom I respect, because he formulates his opinions, regardless of whether I agree with him or not).
> 
> Join the GR bandwagon? I don't have to, I can think for myself. I don't have to rehash other peoples beliefs and pretend to know more than I actually do. You are 40, you know nothing about bodybuilding (evidenced by your claim of 18 inch arms in the photo gallery. Impressive  ), and you started the personal attacks before Gr81 or anyone else did.
> 
> But don't try and put me down, I'm half your age, been training for 2 years, and have seen 10 times the success that you will ever you washed up, over the hill, conceited faggot. Keep on blasting those arms, tough guy. I'm sure your sleeves are begging for mercy.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 6, 2004)




----------



## camarosuper6 (Sep 6, 2004)

Sleeves begging for mercy....LoL

God, I leave this board for a few days and all hell breaks loose in a thread that would be much better suited at bodybuilding.com or some other near worthless bodybuilding site.

Randy.... 





> All I see is a puny little white punk that can't even distinguish his own race .



That was an outright low blow, borderline racist thing to put out on the board bud. I suggest you keep your personal ethnic opinions to yourself next time.


----------



## Randy (Sep 6, 2004)

camarosuper6 said:
			
		

> Sleeves begging for mercy....LoL
> 
> God, I leave this board for a few days and all hell breaks loose in a thread that would be much better suited at bodybuilding.com or some other near worthless bodybuilding site.
> 
> ...


It was nothing compared to the childish insults GR has dished out to me and several others. I meant nothing racist about it Camaro, just calling it the way I see it. Does that mean I am racist cause I simply state a fact that GR tries to masquerade himself as a black rapper or a black dude using their slang.... I guess it just makes him feel kewl. But I mean absolutely nothing racist about it. The fact is ....GR is white and most people that don't know him would think by his conduct that he is black. Now I think you need to look up the word racist, cause I am by no means racist. But Camaro, you are more than happy to jump onto the GR bandwagon don???t bother me in the least. If you have read his cuts and put downs towards others and you want to back him up for that... hey it???s a world of free choice, and this is surely an open forum. But for me, I'm entitled to my opinion and view points of which I layed on the table today Just don't be trying to play that bullshit "Racist" card on me.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Sep 6, 2004)

> Does that mean I am racist cause I simply state a fact that GR tries to masquerade himself as a black rapper or a black dude using their slang..



"Their" slang? Whatever.

Im not getting into this stupid mini-rivarly you have going. I dont play favorites. All I did was say that comment was kinda out of line. Dont make it out to be more than it is.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Sep 6, 2004)

Now... lets move on to more important things.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 6, 2004)

We're all on the GR bandwagon, isn't that lovely.  It was racist, btw, if you can't comprehend that you really are as stupid with common logic as with bodybuilding.

You're a fucking idiot, lumping everyone who hates you with GR.  It has nothing to do with our agreeing with him, as it is that we think a fucking low brow 40 year old with no bodybuilding knowledge and a physique that rivals pillsbury trying to hand out advice is absurd.  Answer back with a bunch of rolling smiles and snickers, but everyone reading this knows whats up.


----------



## Randy (Sep 6, 2004)

camarosuper6 said:
			
		

> "Their" slang? Whatever.
> 
> Im not getting into this stupid mini-rivarly you have going. I dont play favorites. All I did was say that comment was out of line. Dont make it out to be more than it is.


 Your not getting into it? You already did... That is my point today. It's like there are so many people that bitch about others... If they don't agree with what they say, or if they are bothered by it... Why don't they just stay out of the conversation, remain silent, or unsubscribe to the thread. Its so funny how 2 people get into an argument and how many others have to jump in to make matters worse. Then they always will say something like you did "I'm not getting into this stupid blah blah blah"  

I purposely went out of the way to ignore GR ... But after awhile I get tired of hearing his cheap shots.. That is what started my comments towards him today. So camaro...there is a long history behind this that you obviously know nothing about...

As an end note...   I started on this board and shared in exchanging hurtful comments to others and could see that it was wrong.    I now try to get along with everyone.  I do joke around a lot, but I also try to pass on my knowledge and information to others to try to help them.   I don't like to have someone like GR judging my posts cause I post a dancing baby, or because my post does not conform to his scientific standard.  I don't appreciate him judging me or anyone else here.  So sorry to jump on you Camaro,  its just that as you can see GR has struck a sore spot, and he loves every minute of it.


----------



## camarosuper6 (Sep 6, 2004)

I dont stay out of the convo sometimes because Im a mod. 

Lets just squash it now. If I could close this thread, I would.


----------



## Randy (Sep 6, 2004)

Duncan,

Your post here does not even deserve a response.
Obviously you are a low life piece of shit yourself. And you're right, you don't need to be classified in with the GR bandwagon crowd. You make a fine prick in a classification of your own . 

And you're right I am 40.. I admit I am not a bodybuilding professional, but I have learned a great deal about bodybuilding in the last couple years that I have been a part of it. Do I claim to be a know-it-all like you do, no I sure don't.
That is one of the reasons I joined this forum to pickup more knowledge about bodybuilding from some of the good people like Robert, Gopro, Mudge and several others who have a strong wealth of information and don't have to try to put others down to share it.

As for my physique... again, I came here as a new bodybuilder to learn, joke around, and to improve my physique. Am I at 6% body fat and ready for professional competition, surely not but I'm working on improving myself. You label me as a Pillsbury doughboy Duncan, well that says something about you I think. As for me putting down GR, it was just out of defense for his comments toward me. And I shouldn't have done that either. But I think that was between GR and me.





			
				Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> We're all on the GR bandwagon, isn't that lovely. It was racist, btw, if you can't comprehend that you really are as stupid with common logic as with bodybuilding.
> 
> You're a fucking idiot, lumping everyone who hates you with GR. It has nothing to do with our agreeing with him, as it is that we think a fucking low brow 40 year old with no bodybuilding knowledge and a physique that rivals pillsbury trying to hand out advice is absurd. Answer back with a bunch of rolling smiles and snickers, but everyone reading this knows whats up.


----------



## nmuriqi (Sep 6, 2004)

Me smart, Johnny stupid.


----------



## nmuriqi (Sep 6, 2004)

HAHAHA


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Sep 6, 2004)

You're the only person I've put down because you're the only one who deserves it.  You start tossin personal attacks at my friends and when you get it back harder you can't can't take the shit you reap.  Give me a break.  You even went to racism on a post.

I'll make it a point to ignore everything you say and you should do the same.


----------



## gr81 (Sep 6, 2004)

I am not even going to further fuel this fire so I will keep quiet, except to say this. I didn't ask anyone to "band up" against anyone. All the real lifters know whats up. I have helped countless people here from day one with knowledgable insights on training and AAS use. ask them, they will tell you. My understanding of biomechanics and biochemistry dwarfs any type of advice you have ever given or even fathom having. I read books upon books about fields of study complicated enough to confuse the hell out of a simpleton like yourself. Can you even pronounce conjugated periodization, let alone define it or blueprint the difference between that and Western linear periodization? Do you know what the difference between a micro-cycle and a macro-cycle is randy,..hint: it has nothing to do with steroids? Can you explain to me what AR receptor sites, or the importance of free-bound testosterone in the blood? Can you diagam for me the process of alkalyzation and why its needed in regards to oral AAS use? DO you even know something as simple as the difference between type I and type II muscle fibers, or what the difference between static and dynamic training is and why they are used?? Thats bush league shit, you better know that for all the shit you talk. Can you answer any of that, b/c thats all pretty simple shit that most cats here could answer on five minutes. You can talk all teh shit you want, but can you back it up big man? and tah fact of the matter is that you have no idea what my physique looks like do you, there is not one picture in my gallery of my physique, so you can't even comment now can you, so all your doing is mudslinging in an attempt to save face. I am not even going to comment on that racist remark of your either. so instead of arguing to no avail, please prove me wrong and give us a display of  this knowledge you have. heres your chance..


----------



## Randy (Sep 6, 2004)

Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> You're the only person I've put down because you're the only one who deserves it. You start tossin personal attacks at my friends and when you get it back harder you can't can't take the shit you reap. Give me a break. You even went to racism on a post.
> 
> I'll make it a point to ignore everything you say and you should do the same.





			
				Duncans Donuts said:
			
		

> This will be the 201st post in this thread. And hopefully it will also be the last. Do whatever the fuck you want and smile happily while you do it.


 Hmmmm this comment wasn't directed to me, but yet you state that I'm the only person you put down?  This sounds like another one of those pathetic GR put downs to me  And you said you weren't jumping on the GR bandwagon, hell you just did    (oh and this is post #248).

I didn't start a personal attack... I was standing up for Johnnny and trying to defend him from being attacked from you morons.

And you say when I get it back harder  Harder from who  
And you call me Pilsbury, I think you better go eat some more donuts 

I will surely ignore everything you, GR, and any other moron that could stand up for his pathetic actions of putting people on this forum down.

As for GR's post.. I'm not even bothering to read anymore of his pathetic posts.


----------



## gr81 (Sep 6, 2004)

> As for GR's post.. I'm not even bothering to read anymore of his pathetic posts.



thats what I thought, you can't answer one of the questions I asked you.. shocking...next time don't bitch out when I pull your card. you lose all credibility..


----------



## P-funk (Sep 6, 2004)

Wow, this is still going on?


----------



## Randy (Sep 6, 2004)

GR.. Just when I think you couldn't make yourself sound any more pathetic you amaze me by writing something to top yourself. Let me get this straight, you pulled out a text book and have quoted some biomechanics and biochemistry terms to try to impress me   Again GR, an intelligent person would never try to compare themselves to others in an effort to belittle them. There are people from all walks of life. Just because someone is not familiar with biomechanics and biochemistry terms does not make them less of a person. I've run across many people like you... They have to try to put others down to help build themselves up. Again, if you were half as intelligent as you think you are you wouldn't have to try to prove it to me or others. Furthermore you wouldn't have to keep trying to insult them. 

Man, I don't know how many times I have to explain this ... Maybe someday you will grow up and learn some respect for others. Take Tyson for example... He could have been a really great fighter, but because of his behavior and insults toward others he drove his reputation down into the ground. Now look at him. This is a prime example of you GR. Your not a fighter, but you claim to have such great knowledge. Be careful though...with knowledge you also need respect and courtesy toward others... The sooner you learn that the better off you will be.


----------



## Randy (Sep 6, 2004)

P-funk said:
			
		

> Wow, this is still going on?


Yeah P-funk


----------



## gr81 (Sep 6, 2004)

why beat around the bush, just answer the questions since you are so knowledgable. yeah your right I made it up to impress you. please, juts answer the Q's, shit answer even two of them without lookin them up. it has nothing to do with trying to build myself up. you questioned my knowledge and said you knoew more, and I call bullshuit, so prove me wrong. if you can't then shut your mouth.


----------



## Randy (Sep 6, 2004)

gr81 said:
			
		

> why beat around the bush, just answer the questions since you are so knowledgable. yeah your right I made it up to impress you. please, juts answer the Q's, shit answer even two of them without lookin them up. it has nothing to do with trying to build myself up. you questioned my knowledge and said you knoew more, and I call bullshuit, so prove me wrong. if you can't then shut your mouth.


GR, you still don't get it do you... Out of all of my posts. Someone of such intelligence should be able to comprehend my points.  Let me try to summarize it for you.

1. Its all about your attitude GR, your low blows, your insults, your derogatory remarks. 

2. It's about you coming into a thread and capping on someone after you can see they are in the process of being insulted by others.

3. It is about you trying to build yourself up by pulling others down.

Now what is this circus like quiz all about? What does tossing questions at someone that they couldn't possibly know unless they just finished studying it from a text book have to do with my comments directed toward you. This was never about comparing our knowledge toward body building science? Hell I can pull out text books that I have studied and quote you or most anyone else information that they never heard of either.  Does that make them less intelligent? . My comments launched toward you never had anything to do with who knew more about body building...

GR, man you really need to grow up.


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## gr81 (Sep 6, 2004)

> Now what is this circus like quiz all about? What does tossing questions at someone that they couldn't possibly know unless they just finished studying it from a text book have to do with my comments directed toward you. This was never about comparing our knowledge toward body building science?



this is real info that is directly pertaining to the sport and very relavant. I bet most people with any type of knowledge of this game could answer those Q's. I reallize its a large task to ask you to make a post that isn't comprised completely of smilies you tool, but its all good. I just proved everything I needed to know.


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## gopro (Sep 6, 2004)

This thread is no longer productive and has become no more than a series of insults (and worse). Its done.


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## gopro (Sep 6, 2004)

Close this sucker down!


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