# Questions about Primal Living diet, Marksdailyapple.com & Good Calories, Bad Calories



## ArnoldsProtege (Dec 16, 2009)

I have been reading a lot of material lately in favor of a primal diet: meat, fish, eggs, green vegetables, wild herbs and spices, fruits and berries, nuts, cutting out almost all refined carbohydrate and sugar. Mark Sisson of Marksdailyapple.com has this outlined thoroughly, and has some pretty good science to back up his diet.

I also am reading Good Calories Bad Calories by Gary Taubes, which asserts that refined carbohydrate and sugar are the predominant cause of obesity and a myriad of diseases; heart disease, diabetes, etc. and that the fat hypothesis that the majority of people believe, is wrong.

All of this has led me to a diet of predominantly eggs, lean meats, nuts, fruits (though I am not eating very high carb ones just yet) and green veggies. I used to eat 2 slices of whole grain toast and 2 eggs for breakfast; that has since changed to 4 eggs and a few slices of peameal bacon. I have been doing this for about 2 weeks, cutting out the carbs from my meal and replacing it with more lean protein or fats. 

I have lost 5 lbs, and am eating MORE then I used to. I feel full of energy and am never bloated, and oddly have been feeling very mentally charged lately. Training has been easier then I anticipiated.I am wondering what other people think of a predominantly fat/protein way of living. The whole concept with "primal living" is to bring your lifestyle back to the paleolithic era- train often, move a lot, eat organic, natural food similar to what our ancestors thousands of years ago ate, and lead an active life. Indulgence is okay, as long as you stay the track for the most part.

Thoughts? Anyone tried before me? With success, failure? I am curious as to what the nutritionists and science minded individuals of this board think, because as of right now, I see myself eating this way for the rest of my life. As a former fatty, nothing has yet to compare to the satiety and results I have gotten from eating "primal".


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## ArnoldsProtege (Dec 16, 2009)

any one familliar with either the website or the book? or the "primal" diet? or keto diets? any takers?


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## Scout8847 (Dec 17, 2009)

I am looking for this same info.
Have you found a menu to go with this yet?


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## Marat (Dec 18, 2009)

ArnoldsProtege said:


> think of a predominantly fat/protein way of living.



This is certainly a very comfortable way of living. Comprising the majority of your intake with fat and protein is likely more satiating than a carbohydrate-heavy diet. 

Feel free to eat this way for as long as you wish.


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## Built (Dec 18, 2009)

^Agree.

I love my fats and proteins. So satiating!


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## ArnoldsProtege (Dec 19, 2009)

Scout, Mark's Daily Apple is a site dedicated to "primal living" and has many, many recipes! I havent even delved into most of them, as I am so smitten by my fat loss from plain chicken, eggs, steak, pork, and green veggies. Soon I am going to actually start making dishes, but the past few weeks its just been 

A)turn on bbq
B) grill assorted meat 
C) steam green/fibrous vegetable
D) bask in meaty goodness

I feel the best I have in months, am eating a lot, and am losing weight. Its fantastic. I still have my dad and grandfather though telling me to be careful, limit my fat, eat more carbs, careful not to get heart disease, high cholesterol, dont eat so many eggs, etc... these myths are all dispelled in Good Calories,Bad Calories, but it is still hard. A paradigm is a paradigm for a reason, and it takes revolutionary acts to shift it. 

I also am experimenting with intermittant fasting, wich takes a lot of willpower, and is definitely hard at first, but it is rewarding. I used to eat bad food because it was the only food available; now though, if I dont have a healthy meal of mainly fats/proteins, I just cant bring myself to eat something like pizza, or fast food, or even foods I once thought were ok. The idea of 60 grams of carbs in a "healthy" sub is no longer appealing to me.


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## juggernaut (Dec 19, 2009)

Built said:


> ^Agree.
> 
> I love my fats and proteins. So satiating!


damn right


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## danzik17 (Dec 19, 2009)

juggernaut said:


> damn right



Have your gallbladder out.  A high fat diet ain't so comfortable anymore


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## juggernaut (Dec 19, 2009)

danzik17 said:


> Have your gallbladder out.  A high fat diet ain't so comfortable anymore


Really? So then I should live with epilepsy? Uhh no.


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## Scout8847 (Dec 19, 2009)

Thanks for the website and all your help guys. Anyone recommend a fat burner that works as well?


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## Built (Dec 20, 2009)

Jugg, I think he's saying he's had HIS out already. 



danzik17 said:


> Have your gallbladder out.  A high fat diet ain't so comfortable anymore


Damn. That sucks. 



Scout8847 said:


> Thanks for the website and all your help guys. Anyone recommend a fat burner that works as well?



Just get your diet and training worked out. When you hit a stall, you can look into the fatburners. They don't really burn that much fat; the most you can expect to get from any of them is a bit more energy and a bit of appetite suppression. Welcome while cutting, but it won't do it for you. You really need to figure the diet out first.


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## juggernaut (Dec 20, 2009)

Sorry if I came off as a wiseass danzik.

@ Built, clen or ephedrine dont burn fat?


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## Built (Dec 20, 2009)

Jugg - not much, no. They do raise metabolism slightly, but not enough to compensate for overeating.


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## juggernaut (Dec 20, 2009)

So then would say that I should spend more time and effort on diet and cardio than worrying about what dosage to use with either compound?


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## danzik17 (Dec 20, 2009)

juggernaut said:


> So then would say that I should spend more time and effort on diet and cardio than worrying about what dosage to use with either compound?



Yup.  Ephedrine is a pretty decent appetite suppressant I found, and the energy boost is pretty good for maintaining intensity in the gym.

Since ephedrine is a beta-agonist, it may help to lose some of the "stubborn" lower back/ab fat (or ass fat for women), but it's still no replacement for a caloric deficit.  I'd also wait to run the ECA stack until you're at a lower bodyfat imo (10-12%) just because I'd rather have them be at their most effective when it's hardest to lose the fat.  If you use it all the way down, I'd think you would build a tolerance and they would become less effective.


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## juggernaut (Dec 20, 2009)

I'm bulking now, and feel like a fat fuck, but I'm keeping the fat low, at 15-16%. After the holidays I'll get serious and start cutting for a June contest.


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## Merkaba (Dec 21, 2009)

juggernaut said:


> I'm bulking now, and feel like a fat fuck, but I'm keeping the fat low, at 15-16%. After the holidays I'll get serious and start cutting for a June contest.



Sounds like me.  


And to the OP man there are lots of books and diets and suggestions out there!  I could probably find a few that would say the opposite. What are you going to do when you read something that says something else?


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## juggernaut (Dec 21, 2009)

Merkaba said:


> Sounds like me.
> 
> 
> And to the OP man there are lots of books and diets and suggestions out there!  I could probably find a few that would say the opposite. *What are you going to do when you read something that says something else?*


Agreed. You pick a methodolgy that suits both your lifestyle, budget and training goals and go with it.


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## NJ-Surfer (Dec 21, 2009)

ArnoldsProtege said:


> any one familliar with either the website or the book? or the "primal" diet? or keto diets? any takers?



Looks like a waste of money to me. Not sure why I would need to read 4 books to learn how to eat like a Cave Man. Seems pretty straight forward: eat all natural foods, avoid processed foods and refined sugars, keep protein and natural fats high.


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## ArnoldsProtege (Dec 22, 2009)

Well, considering its two books and not four, and that the current paradigm in medicine is to eat a low fat diet high in carbohydrate and protein (medicine/general public, as fitness minded people tend to look past trends). So no, I would not say it is obvious or straightforward as you presume. With all the ideas out there now that fat is bad, steak is the enemy and butter kills you,while leaving out important statistics and caveats. it takes some time and research to find an optimal way of living and eating, and I still get dirty looks and puzzled faces when I eat just eggs for breakfast and no toast, or two chicken breasts for dinner without adding a carb loaded side.

Also, I was not just referring to those specific books, but the ideas of ketosis, high fat and protein/low carb diets, and other ways of eating that are not the standard. My parents still tell me that I am going to get heart disease and high cholesterol from eating steaks, and eggs, and pork while skipping potatoes and white rice wich they cook most of. 

Besides, whats wrong with reading books? Good Calories,Bad Calories is a thorough rebuttal of the current health and diet axioms. It is a scientific analysis of a super important topic, is dealt with in a fair and stimulating way, and happens to be a page turner. You will definitely think differently about medicine and will start to question the origins and validity of some major health ideas out their now (based on objective evidence, of course)


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## NJ-Surfer (Dec 22, 2009)

Easy fella, I'm just expressing my opinions which is what you requested..."_I am curious as to what the nutritionists and science minded individuals of this board think"_

The website *is* selling 4 books:

*Special Offer - Buy 3, get 4th FREE 3 x $26.99 = $80.97 for 4 books $80.97*

There's nothing wrong with reading books and there's nothing wrong with holding onto your money either. I'm always a bit hesitant when someone is touting his or her nutrition program and hawking books and supplements at the same time. If one eats properly there shouldn't be a need for supplements and it's not keeping with his philosophy of the "cave man" diet, as I don’t believe primordial man had access to supplements. Again, these are just my opinions free to spend your money as you see fit.


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## Built (Dec 22, 2009)

Supplements just make it easier to get in the right stuff. Cave men also didn't live in cities with grocery stores or factory-farmed chicken.


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## juggernaut (Dec 22, 2009)

NJ-Surfer said:


> Easy fella, I'm just expressing my opinions which is what you requested..."_I am curious as to what the nutritionists and science minded individuals of this board think"_
> 
> The website *is* selling 4 books:
> 
> ...


is there a reason why youre coming off as a dick?


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## NJ-Surfer (Dec 22, 2009)

juggernaut said:


> is there a reason why youre coming off as a dick?



Not sure why you feel that way. Sorry if I've offended anyone. I'm just of the opinion that if you buy every new book that comes out about a new diet plan you will soon be parted from your money. I also feel that there are way too many worthless supplements with unproven safety profiles on the market.


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## Built (Dec 22, 2009)

NJ-Surfer said:


> Not sure why you feel that way. Sorry if I've offended anyone. I'm just of the opinion that if you buy every new book that comes out about a new diet plan you will soon be parted from your money. I also feel that there are way too many worthless supplements with unproven safety profiles on the market.


I didn't think you were being a dick - the way you just said it was how I read it. Don't worry about jugg, he types faster than he can think sometimes. (jugg, you know I love you... )

There are some good reads out there. But you're wise to do some research of your own, too, if only so you know whose books to read.


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## NJ-Surfer (Dec 23, 2009)

Built said:


> I didn't think you were being a dick - the way you just said it was how I read it. Don't worry about jugg, he types faster than he can think sometimes. (jugg, you know I love you... )
> 
> There are some good reads out there. But you're wise to do some research of your own, too, if only so you know whose books to read.



Help on my diet, help on my training, and now help on my post; Built, your the best!!


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## juggernaut (Dec 23, 2009)

I guess it was your tone in the writing. I stand corrected if I assumed wrong.


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## ArnoldsProtege (Dec 23, 2009)

I see where you are coming from now, and I agree. A healthy dose of skepticism is vital to any critical analysis. Good Calories Bad Calories by Gary Taubes is a very well researched and documented work, and is in the same _vein_ as Mark Sissons website and book (about primal living), but Taubes book is by far the better read and worth buying. It is a research book addressing the prevalent paradigms in health and medicine, particularly regarding fat and its correlation (or lack thereof) with heart disease, asserting that it is the sugar and refined carbohydrates that have been the bane of advanced civilizations existences. THAT is one hell of a book, has a bibliography of 100 pages, and has been a work in progress for 4 years.

The primal book, on the other hand, is Mark Sissons pitch for his ideas (wich are based a lot on the ideas that taubes, among others, have been putting forward). I would not buy that book  mainly because his website offers so much free content, though I am sure it is very useful,

all of that is sort of off topic, as I am mainly interested in what the fine fitness enthusiasts here think about that kind of diet, as in, a primarily fat/protein, eating steak, eggs and other high fat foods that have been tauted as causing heart disease and a myriad of health issues. This is concerning, as I have my entire familly telling me that I am being stupid, and I shouldnt eat 3-5 eggs every day because of cholesterol, and I shouldnt eat red meat very often, and I have to limit my fat and start eating more carbohydrates. I cannot help but have doubts in my head when I suck down 10 ounces of steak for dinner, fat and all, that I may be doing something negative for my health. 

Keep in mind that I still track my macros (wich has become easier since I stopped eating grains) and I am eating below maintenance wich is surprisingly easy with the reduction of refined carb in my diet. I have since lost 8 lbs and am feeling leaner then I have in months... and I have not changed my routine whatsoever, only my diet. For me anyway, as a former fatty, this is how I plan on eating for the rest of my life. Its almost like a dream diet come true: eat lots of meat and fish (love), healthy fats (avocados, almonds and olive oil, oh my) and copious amounts of fruits and veggies, also love, wich can easilly be substituted for my carb intake once I get to where I want to be and maintain. 

I just cant help but feel a nagging impulse in the back of my head, from all of the contrary medical ideas out there, and the constant scrutiny of my familly and others when they see me eating a giant steak for dinner with asparagus and nothing else, that I am going to drop dead from a massive heart attack.


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## Built (Dec 23, 2009)

I eat a high-fat diet. I am a middle-aged woman who was obese at 38, on Metformin, and contemplating Lipitor. I had struggled with my weight from my early twenties to my late thirties. 

Now 46, my cholesterol is enviable, I maintain sub-20% bodyfat year round, and I had steak and eggs for breakfast yesterday. 

I eat red meat almost daily, real whipping cream, butter, egg yolks, high-fat cheeses, raw nuts, olive oil and avocados - these are the staple foods of my diet. 

I eat almost no grain and very little sugar. Lots of vegetables, some fruit, lots of meat. 

Does this help?


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## juggernaut (Dec 23, 2009)

MA, whats your pwo drink look like? And when are you going into a cut again?


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## Built (Dec 23, 2009)

Jugg, probably gonna try to cut up this spring. 

PWO, well, when I can afford the calories I usually do a scoop of protein with half a scoop of dextrose and a teaspoon of creatine in a shake and sip that while I train. Whatever's left at the end I knock back on my way home to eat.


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## juggernaut (Dec 23, 2009)

sounds like a job for.....ALL in 1!!!!


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## ArnoldsProtege (Dec 23, 2009)

I have to say Built, it certainly does help. God, I was going over the macroes for a nice slab of top sirloin. Unreal. Anyone who complains about not getting enough protein oughta slosh one of those bad boys onto their plate. Nothin like 85 grams of protein for dinner. 

You have given me the confidence and the assurance to continue on this path. Also, knowing that you are leading the trail on this high fat super highway, I will have a heads up if I ever notice that you stop posting indefinitely


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## Built (Dec 24, 2009)

ROFLMFAO!

Google "the oiling of america". Very good read. (Oh and free!)


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## NJ-Surfer (Dec 24, 2009)

ArnoldsProtege said:


> .... I just cant help but feel a nagging impulse in the back of my head, from all of the contrary medical ideas out there, and the constant scrutiny of my familly and others when they see me eating a giant steak for dinner with asparagus and nothing else, that I am going to drop dead from a massive heart attack.



Make a deal with your parents that after 6 months of eating like this you will have your cholesterol tested (best indicator of heart disease). Once they see the numbers and approval from your Dr they will lay off. You can can get it tested yearly after that to keep yourself from worrying about dropping dead from a massive hear attack.


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## Ralphie (Dec 25, 2009)

Why do these diets support lean meats?

I can't remember if both of the authors discussed in this thread support *only* lean meats, but I know that one of them does.

What is the reason for this?
I mean I know if the diet is supposed to mimic what a paleolithic man or cave man ate, he definitely ate fatty meat right? I doubt they were too picky about it...


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## Built (Dec 25, 2009)

I don't stick to lean meat. I'll buy it, if it's on sale, but I look for well-marbled steaks and I eat my chicken with the skin on when I roast it.


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## MCx2 (Dec 25, 2009)

I've been following a very similar diet over the past month or so. Steaks, chicken, eggs, almonds, whole milk, broccoli and spinach out the wazoo, butter on almost everything just to keep my cals _up_ and I have dropped a whopping 16 lbs in about 5 weeks (I'm sure a good amount was water). Not only am I not starving myself, I'm very full after meals. Like Built, I've been buying the cuts of meat that are on sale, most of the time they have decent amounts of fat on them. I have more energy and mental focus than EVER. I have no desire whatsoever for anything sugary either, in fact 2 Christmas cookies had my stomach messed up for hours. 

I've been reading your praise for this type of diet for as long as you've been around here Built and finally adopted it as my own. I couldn't be more impressed with the results so far. THANK YOU!


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## ArnoldsProtege (Dec 25, 2009)

I notice this too now, that high sugar/carb foods have an immediate impact in my gut. I can almost feel it wrenching around down there, asking me "wtf is going on mate, wheres the meat".

Naturally, I responded kindly to its plea.


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## Built (Dec 25, 2009)

Isn't it just nuts? It's just so much more COMFORTABLE.

How did we ever get so screwed up with that low-fat bullshit? I mean, I know it's comfortable for SOME people. But looking around at all the fat people out there, it seems a whole pile of us are trying - and failing - to apply a lousy idea to our diets. 

We need to eat like the French. They eat fat all day long and WE're the ones with an obesity epidemic!


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## NJ-Surfer (Dec 25, 2009)

Built said:


> Isn't it just nuts? It's just so much more COMFORTABLE.
> 
> How did we ever get so screwed up with that low-fat bullshit? I mean, I know it's comfortable for SOME people. But looking around at all the fat people out there, it seems a whole pile of us are trying - and failing - to apply a lousy idea to our diets.
> 
> We need to eat like the French. They eat fat all day long and WE're the ones with an obesity epidemic!



What???s even crazier is I know many vegetarians that are fat. They're already challenged getting enough protein into their diets and then buy into the low fat BS and wind up eating shit processed foods that are filled with nothing but high fructose corn syrup. They???re basically slowly killing themselves with sugar.


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## ArnoldsProtege (Dec 25, 2009)

Skinny-Fat Vegetarians are pretty common. My fellow primal friend encountered one the other day at the gym and engaged in a pretty lengthy discussion over it. The funny part is that the guy was advocating its health benefits and its fat loss ability, but he was jigglier then a... hmm, well, a really jiggly overweight person.


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## FITLATINA (Jan 11, 2010)

*I posted this on another thread.  Can I have your input?   Thanks*

*Looking to lose fat, not muscle* 

I'm a 46 year old female, 5'5', 175.6 lbs. (32 % BF). Most of the fat thighs, butt, and belly. I used to weigh a healthy 131 lbs about 20 years ago. I've been the typical yo-yo dieter. The last time was about a year ago, I lost 15 lbs and gained back 13. I've been reading the VPX MELTDOWN fat burner threads on here and I'm sold. I'm planning to do one cycle of MD plus cardio.

Quest#1 - How much protein, carbs, & fat should I consume in order to lose fat, not muscle? My concern is that whenever I lose weight, the first thing that I lose is by boobs and my butt.

Question#2 - Can I incorporate some muscle toning exercises right away or wait until I lose weight? Especially booty exercises....lol

Fitlatina

(I need calorie advice too)


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## juggernaut (Jan 11, 2010)

Diet is the first key; dont buy the fat burners-save your money. 
As for your macro ratio, are you doing low carb, keto, psmf or high carb dieting? 
Your training, what does it entail?


FITLATINA said:


> *I posted this on another thread.  Can I have your input?   Thanks*
> 
> *Looking to lose fat, not muscle*
> 
> ...


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## FITLATINA (Jan 11, 2010)

Low carb dieting.  I just started runnning on a treadmill 30 mins.  I'm not sure if I should incorporate any other exercises.  (any suggestions?)  I figured I should lose the fat first.  I know I have to keep up my protein to prevent muscle loss.


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