# New routine



## johnson 45 (Aug 2, 2010)

Hello all! I would like to drop down to a 4day a week training routine,and I would like some suggestions on 4day workout routines.

My workout now is...

Sun chest
mon arms
tues back
wed off
thur shoulders
fri    legs
sat  off

Thanks everybody...


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## Phineas (Aug 2, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> Hello all! I would like to drop down to a 4day a week training routine,and I would like some suggestions on 4day workout routines.
> 
> My workout now is...
> 
> ...



Arms and shoulders don't need entire sessions.

A session devoted to chest, a session devoted to shoulders, and one devoted to arms -- of which half I assume is triceps -- is far too much pushing for your upper body. This will put you at great risk for rotator cuff injury. Balance your pushing and pulling.

This "program" is only 1/5 lower body. That's terrible. Your lower body comprises at least 50% of your body, and contains the largest muscle groups in the body. Not only are you cheating yourself of greater growth potential by training the larger muscle groups, you're setting yourself for muscular/strength imbalances down the road that will not only make you look ridiculous but potentially cause lower back/spine injuries.

You said 4 days, this is 5. 

What are your goals? Training experience? Exercises? Periodization? (how you plan to use this program in the long-run to achieve what you're after? write programs -- not routines; have a plan, and structure your training accordingly)

Most important -- provide a detailed description of your diet. Nutrition ultimately determines your success.


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## PushAndPull (Aug 2, 2010)

Read the first post in each link, then make a new four day routine and post it.

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/58699-guide-designing-routine.html

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/53332-designing-split-routine.html


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## Phineas (Aug 2, 2010)

PushAndPull said:


> Read the first post in each link, then make a new four day routine and post it.
> 
> http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/58699-guide-designing-routine.html
> 
> http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/53332-designing-split-routine.html



Damn you and your precious stickies! Damn you, I say!


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## johnson 45 (Aug 2, 2010)

phineas, dude I'm not looking for a new diet and thanks for the training advise but I think many would argue with you about your position on training arms.I train calfs 3 times a week by the way . I dident say I had hit a plateau,only that I though I was STARTING to overtrain.And I know the workout I listed is 5 Days....thats why I'm asking for suggestions on a 4 Day routine. Sorry if I was not clear about it.


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## PushAndPull (Aug 2, 2010)

Phineas said:


> Damn you and your precious stickies! Damn you, I say!



It's my standard response now. I figure if they're not willing to read a couple of really good posts then fuck'em.


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## gtbmed (Aug 2, 2010)

That's not a training program, it's just a list of body parts.


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## Phineas (Aug 2, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> phineas, dude I'm not looking for a new diet and thanks for the training advise but I think many would argue with you about your position on training arms.I train calfs 3 times a week by the way . I dident say I had hit a plateau,only that I though I was STARTING to overtrain.And I know the workout I listed is 5 Days....thats why I'm asking for suggestions on a 4 Day routine. Sorry if I was not clear about it.



It doesn't matter if people don't ask for a new diet. You said you were overtraining, and usually people's problem isn't training but diet. Everyone thinks they have a great diet, when after a quick post we assess it and they realize it was total crap. When you ask for program advice here you're going to get bothered about diet, because a program won't work without a solid diet. Diet is just as much a part of training as barbells and dumbbells.

Many people would argue about the arm thing, yes, but those are the people who don't understand the mechanics of the muscular system, growth hormones, central nervous system, periodization, etc. Just because you want your biceps to grow doesn't mean you need to do arm curls. Pullups train the biceps, rows train the biceps, even deadlifts and cleans train the biceps. Training arms, or any secondary assisting muscle, directly is like having a diswasher yet washing everything by hand. You can be more efficient -- get better results faster. Do some reading on compound lifting and growth hormones.

There's nothing wrong with doing some isolation for lagging muscles, but you don't need to devote all that regular scheduled training to what are only secondary, assisting muscles. They get plenty of stimulation from compound movements. I dropped arm training and muscle group splits last fall, took up compounds-only push/pull training (balancing lower body and upper 50/50) and since then my arms have grown about 2 inches. Increase your rows and pullups and you'll increase your biceps.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 2, 2010)

Sounds good, could you maybe post your routine? I would like to try it. Your right too my diet sucks ass right now! And I'm wondering why my arms look less diffined lol.

Thanks Dude!!


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## Gazhole (Aug 3, 2010)

Read those posts PushAndPull linked you to and you could make a great program yourself.

Phineas is dead on, wasting a whole day on tiny muscles like the arms is stupid and will net you practically no results compared to the effort you'll put in.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

So you break your arm routine in with larger parts? You cant just not train arms thats nuts!


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

My workout now​ 
Day 1 incline DB press, incline flyes, Barbell bench, flat bech flyes,dips
Day 2 skull crushers,cable pull downs,kick backs,
Barbell curls,incline dumbell curls, consentration curls
Day 3 military press,arnold presses,side lateral raises, dumbell shrugs
Day 4 Off
Day 5 pull downs,chainsaws.barbell rows,pulldowns behind the neck,bent over rows ( rear delts)
Day 6 squats,leg extentions,stiff leg dead lifts,hamstring curls.
Day 7 Off​ 
Also I do calfs about 3 times per week. I do 3 sets of each exercise,reps are 12,10.8​ 
Age 33
5'10
193
body fat is around 9% I'm guessing. I can see my abs,not great but I can see them lol​


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

Maybe you could post your routines.

Thanks...


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## gtbmed (Aug 3, 2010)

Monday: Squat, bench press, deadlift

Wednesday: Squat, military press, bent over DB rows

Friday: Squat, bench press, deadlift

I add stuff like side bends, chinups, and farmer's walks as assistance.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

Looks good but I dont understand,how can you not train all the heads of a muscle and say your a bodybuilder?Are you a powerlifter? What are your stats?

Not trying to argue I just have never heard of anybody not training arms or all the heads of the delts or all the heads of any other muscle for that matter.


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## gtbmed (Aug 3, 2010)

Let me ask you something:

Do you think it is better for your delts to do 30lb. lateral raises or 130lb. military presses?

Also, between chinups, military presses, and bench press, how are "all of the heads of the muscle" not trained?


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

I think its best to do presses followed by side laterals,an if you are doing 40 to failure on side laterals...how do you think your not building mass? Presses are a great foundation in any routine but it cant be all you do,thats not bodybuilding. 

Your saying to do chinups,bench and pullups for delts?

Chinups and bench are great but come on Man, your not isolating the delts at all.
So is that how you train arms as well?

Do you have any pics of yourself?


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## gtbmed (Aug 3, 2010)

Why do I need to isolate my delts for them to get work?

And I don't train arms, I think that's silly.  My arms get plenty of stimulus from pressing, deadlifting, squatting, rows, and chins.

It's not about building mass.  Building mass is done in the kitchen and on the sofa.  The point of training is to get the stimulus your body needs to grow.  Standing around lifting a 40 lb. dumbell 25 times to me isn't telling my body it needs to grow like putting 225lbs. accros my back and squatting it through a full ROM.

You say, "Why not do both?"  The answer is pretty simple:  efficiency.  You only have so much energy.  Why use that energy to go to failure on an isolation exercise that only stimulates maybe one muscle group when you could use it to do an exercise that stimulates the entire body?  That's extra time and energy expenditure that neither you nor I nor anyone else really needs.

Now I am not saying shoulder laterals are useless.  They have their place as an injury-prevention exercise.  What I am saying is that to use isolation exercises extensively in any training program is a waste.

Not only is it a waste though - it's setting you up for problems with overtraining.  The delts are a relatively small muscle group and if you're doing heavy sets of chinups, rows, deadlifts, and bench press, they're already getting a lot of stimulation.  Why then, would you devote an entire extra day to training them when you already train them 3 times per week?  The same can be said of biceps and triceps.

And hell no I don't take pictures of myself.  I also don't look at myself in the mirror when I'm at the gym.


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## Phineas (Aug 3, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> I think its best to do presses followed by side laterals,an if you are doing 40 to failure on side laterals...how do you think your not building mass? Presses are a great foundation in any routine but it cant be all you do,thats not bodybuilding.
> 
> Your saying to do chinups,bench and pullups for delts?
> 
> ...



This is hilarious.

johnson 45, the delts are an assisting muscle. They're not intended to work on their own; they're intended to assist larger muscles in pushing (anterior and lateral deltoids) and pulling (posterior deltoids).

Training smaller muscles directly is a waste of time because very few growth hormones are released. I stopped doing arm curls, tricep extensions, lateral raises, etc, almost a year ago and my arm growth took off. I'm not shitting you, man. We're not lying about this. This is just a part of bodybuilding most people don't get.

Professional bodybuilders isolate arms because (a) they're on gear and can handle what to most people is total overtraining, (b) they're all overly obsessed with arms, and (c) the IFBB pros tend to train very inefficiently as it is. They use more machines than free-weights; they train with far too many isolation movements; and they cheat on every fucking lift. They're ripped because they're juiced up to the max and lifting retarded weight. Even with bad form and imbalanced training, they'll grow.



gtbmed said:


> Why do I need to isolate my delts for them to get work?
> 
> And I don't train arms, I think that's silly.  My arms get plenty of stimulus from pressing, deadlifting, squatting, rows, and chins.
> 
> ...



Very nice.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

That is not bodybuilding,the muscles in your arms are not secondary muscle and they are not stabalizer muscle either,they are muscle that need to be trained like any other. You can do heavy compound movements with arms also,but you cant just neglect them.

No offence but you have lots to learn about bodybuilding. I have been training for 15 years and I have never seen a bodybuilder train like that,I have seen powerlifters train that way. I have met some top Guys over the years and they do not train like that. When I was visiting a good Friend of mine in Florida I had the pleasure to train with Gunter Schlierkamp,well I was there but it was really my Friend who trained with Him.Anyway He did an arm workout and He did many isolation exercises including 225lb scull crushers, but I know you would not do that right?

Also when wwe was in Calgary ( where I lived for 14 years) they where at my Gym and I could not help but to keep an eye on His workout,and He did a very bodybuilder like workout lots of isolation. He did not do squats chinups and millitary presses then leave. 

What I'm trying to show you is, you can do isolation along with compound movements. If you do isolation heavy and to failure then you will grow like a motherfucker!

dont mistake my question for lack of knowledge,I only asked for some sugestions on 4 day routines,I can certainly do One myself.

Dude no offence but you should not give advise if you dont know what your talking about.You dont take pics or look in the mirror because you dont like what you see.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

Guys put some pics up, I would like to see your massive arms that have grown 2inches after not working them directly.

Buddy come on, so your saying that the pros are only that way because of juice? And your the One who really knows how train?

Just your little comment at the bottom

*You can't win an argument against someone who's retarded.*  proves that its your way or no way, so you can have it Dude I'm done with this thread.

Happy training Guys.....


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## gtbmed (Aug 3, 2010)

I don't look in the mirror or take pictures because I think it's a bit gay to tell you the truth.  I'd rather spend my time lifting heavy weights than curling 40 lb. dumbells in front of the mirror.  I'm not entering a show or anything like that anytime soon.

You asked for advice.  If you don't want to take our advice that's up to you.  But don't call us retarded for our opinions on training.  Clearly there was something dissatisfying with your original training program that prompted you to ask us for our advice.  But if you're going to ask for advice, calling the people that are trying to help you idiots is not necessarily a good way to endear yourself to them.  You want me to post pictures?  I don't see why that's necessary.  Do you need character references as well? 

Look, I don't care how some IFBB pro works out.  He's on tons of gear, has his own chef, a massage therapist, coaches, etc. all devoted to training and recovery.  Lifting is his job and he can devote the entirety of his energy and time to training and recovery.  I can't, and I doubt you can.  I prefer to be efficient with my workouts.  That means I have to cut out crap like curls.

I also prefer to base my training programs around science and not antiquated bodybuilding principles.  A sample size of n=1 doesn't prove anything, especially when that one guy doesn't even come close to reflecting the type of lifestyle you or I lead.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

Sorry if I offended you Guys,lets just say that we agree to disagree cool?

Take care and happy training Dudes!


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## Phineas (Aug 3, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> That is not bodybuilding,the muscles in your arms are not secondary muscle and they are not stabalizer muscle either,they are muscle that need to be trained like any other. You can do heavy compound movements with arms also,but you cant just neglect them.
> 
> No offence but you have lots to learn about bodybuilding. I have been training for 15 years and I have never seen a bodybuilder train like that,I have seen powerlifters train that way. I have met some top Guys over the years and they do not train like that. When I was visiting a good Friend of mine in Florida I had the pleasure to train with Gunter Schlierkamp,well I was there but it was really my Friend who trained with Him.Anyway He did an arm workout and He did many isolation exercises including 225lb scull crushers, but I know you would not do that right?
> 
> ...



So, your logic is follow what the muscular steroid user does?

No, the only reason pros succeed isn't drugs, but it's a large part of the reason. They wouldn't be able to train like that if they were natural.

Look, swallow your false sense of moronic pride and listen to someone for a second. Old ideas are constantly disproven. There was a time when the greatest minds thought the Earth was flat; there was a time when Jews and Blacks were "scientifically proven" to be less intelligent; there was a time when lobotamies were accepted by the scientific community as a valid procedure. Times change, and so does our understanding of the world.

There's nothing wrong with isolation. The fact is it's less efficient.

You're wrong. The biceps, etc, _are_ assisting/secondary muscles for the larger muscle groups like the lats, quads, etc. If you would ever take the time to stop being such a fucking tool who can't think for himself and give even one shred of effort -- rather worshipping the over-developed, impractical, disgusting physiques of IFBB drugged-up pros and arguing with someone who gives you genuine, science-based advice -- and read maybe just a little bit about the human anatonomy, you would learn this for yourself.

Your assisting muscles will grow with compound movements. If you don't believe me then go fuck yourself with an inverted, barbed wire cross.

Also, I actually do look in the mirror. I agree with gbtmed that it's silly, but I'm interested in bodybuilding. However, that's enough for me. I'm also interested in strength and power; I'm only partially a bodybuilder.

I don't take pictures because I don't have a camera. If I did have pics I wouldn't post them because what do I have to prove to you? You came to this board looking for advice, you got great advice, then shot it down. You're an idiot.



johnson 45 said:


> Guys put some pics up, I would like to see your massive arms that have grown 2inches after not working them directly.
> 
> Buddy come on, so your saying that the pros are only that way because of juice? And your the One who really knows how train?
> 
> ...



Ironically, this only reaffirms my signature.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

Ok your right Dude


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## Phineas (Aug 3, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> I thought we where done with this thread,Dude look at my pic and then look at yourself LOL! Dude the body is the body and what worked in Arnold and Frankos time does work now,its Guys like you who cant handle the workouts who try to come up with new workouts,more efficient workouts is what you call them LOL.
> 
> The Guys who really look great train proper,the Guys who look like shit and walk around thinking they know it all with their arms out to the side and chest puffed out,they do your workout.
> 
> ...



My pic is to contrast classic bodybuilding with modern bodybuilding -- which I'm not a fan of.

Arnold trained very inefficiently. That's well documented amongst the bodybuilding community. I'm still a big fan of him because he still had a great physique. I didn't say isolation won't yield results; it's just not the best way.


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## gtbmed (Aug 3, 2010)

Like I said, you don't have to agree with what we tell you.  You asked for the advice and we gave it.  In the end you will act according to your own prerogative.  But in the future, don't attack people for doing exactly what you ask of them.


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## Gazhole (Aug 3, 2010)

Okay i'll bite:

















I'm far right.

Now, i'm not a bodybuilder, but from the mass and proportions i've built up through smart, science-based training, i see no reason why i couldn't be if i wanted to. Which in turn shows to me that all that extra isolation stuff (which i havent done in years) is completely un-necessary at best, and counter-productive at worse.

I do not train arms more than four sets a week. Often i go months without doing any sort of curl.

I do not isolate delts, yet from these photos i think its fairly clear that all three heads are well developed.

I'm not even specifically training or eating for size.



Nobody here is offended, so don't you be. Don't confuse our attitude towards your opinions as our attitude against you. Theres a lot to be said for training experience and knowledge, but it's not the be all and end all, and things have moved on from the traditional way of training since Pumping Iron. The number of hardgainers is going down because people are finally starting to break away from these principles. At least people i come into contact with, anyway.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

done


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## PushAndPull (Aug 3, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> It shows you dont do isolation, you are as smooth as a seal.And what mass are you talking about??
> 
> I cant fucking belive you Guys are giving advise lol
> 
> phineas attacked, not me...read the posts again.



You're ignorance is amazing. His definition is a product of diet not training. Just because you did a some gear and got a little size doesn't mean you know jack shit besides how to stick a needle in your ass. Gaz is easily as big as you and he didn't use any gear to get there. How can you talk shit since you took the pussy route?


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## Built (Aug 3, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> That is not bodybuilding,the muscles in your arms are not secondary muscle and they are not stabalizer muscle either,they are muscle that need to be trained like any other. You can do heavy compound movements with arms also,but you cant just neglect them.
> 
> No offence but you have lots to learn about bodybuilding. I have been training for 15 years and I have never seen a bodybuilder train like that,*I have seen powerlifters train that way.* <snip>
> Dude no offence but you should not give advise if you dont know what your talking about.You dont take pics or look in the mirror because you dont like what you see.


Yep, I've seen powerlifters train that way too. 

Dave Gulledge, powerlifter:






Dave Gulledge, dieted-down powerlifter:









johnson 45 said:


> It shows you dont do isolation, you are as smooth as a seal.



He's a fish-belly white Anglo Saxon like me, he's not cutting, and he's not painted up or dieted-down. He's also unassisted. Oh, and he's not a bodybuilder. 

Isolation doesn't cut you up - heavy low-rep training and a caloric deficit do that part. 

That's how I was able to go from "fat, middle-aged jogger" to this when I was forty two and unassisted. 




johnson 45 said:


> And what mass are you talking about??


He looks pretty thick to me. 

Let's see some pix of YOU, big guy.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

I dont do juice bro, I did a bit about 10 years ago and I kept none of it. I train hard and if you knew anything about juice you would know that you have to train 4 times as har to make gains an to keep them...you know nothing about juic or training period.
Looks Guys we are beating this thing to death....who gives a shit,keep training how you want and I will train how I want ok? You will look how you do ,and I will look how I do.I'm happy with that and I'm sure you guys are happy also. Who cares what I think? I dont care One bit what you Guys think....so fuck it move on.

Peace...


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## Built (Aug 3, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> I dont do juice bro, I did a bit about 10 years ago and I kept none of it. I train hard and if you knew anything about juice you would know that you have to train 4 times as har to make gains an to keep them...you know nothing about juic or training period.



You have to be kidding me. 

Okay, now I really want to see pix. 

Gaz and I posted ours. Where are yours?



johnson 45 said:


> Looks Guys we are beating this thing to death....who gives a shit,keep training how you want and I will train how I want ok? You will look how you do ,and I will look how I do.I'm happy with that and I'm sure you guys are happy also. Who cares what I think? I dont care One bit what you Guys think....so fuck it move on.
> 
> Peace...


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

Built,I'm not claiming to be big,your much bigger than me and I never said anything about cuting up did I? Read the hole post bro. Listen you cant tel me that you dont do arms dude, dont bull shit just to be on their side here be honest. Maybe you should read the post again FROM THE START and see who went crazy here.

And if you were giving advise I would listen cause you talk the talk but as for the others...no fucking way!

 unassisted huh?


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

Go to the profile to see my pic


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## Built (Aug 3, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> Built,I'm not claiming to be big,your much bigger than me and I never said anything about cuting up did I? Read the hole post bro. Listen you cant tel me that you dont do arms dude, dont bull shit just to be on their side here be honest. Maybe you should read the post again FROM THE START and see who went crazy here.
> 
> And if you were giving advise I would listen cause you talk the talk but as for the others...no fucking way!
> 
> unassisted huh?


I'm not bigger than you, am I?

The guy is Dave Gullege. 

This is me at forty two, unassisted and 130 lbs:






No isolation work. 

Heavy, low-rep training: squats, chins, bench, cleans, deads. 

Diet. 

I trained like a powerlifter while dieting to make this happen, after twenty years of being fat.

Thanks for the props btw.   I do train arms, occasionally. But they grow better when I don't do very much - bicep curls are my guilty pleasure. 

Peace.


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## Built (Aug 3, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> Go to the profile to see my pic



Done:






How tall are you, and what do you weigh in that pic?

Edit: ah, just saw it - 5'10", 193 lbs. 

What do the legs look like? What do you squat?


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## PushAndPull (Aug 3, 2010)

Jesus, this guy is a fucking joke.


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## Built (Aug 3, 2010)

Now, now, everybody got all hot under the collar, let's settle down and be nice. 

<sigh>

Why can't everyone just talk dirty and get along?


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## PushAndPull (Aug 3, 2010)

Built said:


> Now, now, everybody got all hot under the collar, let's settle down and be nice.
> 
> <sigh>
> 
> Why can't everyone just talk dirty and get along?



I actually tried to stay out of this thread, but this douchebag was just too much.


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## Built (Aug 3, 2010)

LMAO I tried too, but the compulsion to avoid my housework got in the way. 

johnson 45, for the four-day you want - I'll assume you're not on gear now. You looking to bulk or cut? What parts are you looking to bring up - maybe post up some measurements for your calves, thighs, chest, arms, waist - let's see what needs bringing up in your next split.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

Finaly some nice help, well lately I have noticed that my muscles seem to flatten out about 3-4 Days after training them ,they seem to lose the fullness. Thats why I think I might be overtraining,also I dont seem to be lifting as much as a few months ago. 

I would like to start incorporating more compound movements, contrary to what people on here think I belive in them very much,but I still would like to have isolation exercises in there.Not every body is the same and mine reacts very good to heavy isolation.Basically I'm just looking to re-do my workout and rest 3 Days a week.

Thank you....


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## gtbmed (Aug 3, 2010)

her you go:

monday: chest

tuesday: back

thursday: legs and abs

saturday: shoulders and arms

Should work great for u bro.


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## PushAndPull (Aug 3, 2010)

I just can't hold back anymore



johnson 45 said:


> Finaly some nice help, well lately I have noticed that my muscles seem to flatten out about 3-4 Days after training them ,they seem to lose the fullness. Thats why I think I might be overtraining,also I dont seem to be lifting as much as a few months ago.
> 
> I would like to start incorporating more compound movements, contrary to what people on here think I belive in them very much,but I still would like to have isolation exercises in there*.Not every body is the same and mine reacts very good to heavy isolation*.Basically I'm just looking to re-do my workout and rest 3 Days a week.
> 
> Thank you....



You fucking hypocritical prick. Now your gonna say that everyone is different and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for everyone. Nice try shitbag, what did you say earlier?



johnson 45 said:


> That is not bodybuilding,the muscles in your arms are not secondary muscle and they are not stabalizer muscle either,they are muscle that need to be trained like any other. You can do heavy compound movements with arms also,but you cant just neglect them..



This is saying your training method is the only way you can build your arms/ be a bodybuilder.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

Your not very bright are you? When this was going on I was talking about myself,my workout and what works for me,get it? My opinion as it pertaines to my workouts.

Like I said in the other thread I will train how I want and you can train how you want...I never said THIS IS THE ONLY WAY, the others where the Ones who said there is only One way,not me!

I think your spending too much time pulling it,you dont look like you push much.

Now let it the fuck go!


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## PushAndPull (Aug 3, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> Your not very bright are you? When this was going on I was talking about myself,my workout and what works for me,get it? My opinion as it pertaines to my workouts.
> 
> Like I said in the other thread I will train how I want and you can train how you want...I never said THIS IS THE ONLY WAY, the others where the Ones who said there is only One way,not me!
> 
> ...



Go fuck your mother, you lying piece of shit. You said "That is not bodybuilding" it's in the quote.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

gtbmed, thanks for this...can you do a breakdown of the shoulders/arms workout as I think this is where my week spot has really been lately, Also should I just incorporate more compound movements? Should I lower the reps say 10,8,6 or lower even?

Thanks Dude


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## johnson 45 (Aug 3, 2010)

Buddy I'm not going back on anything,I'm saying I will add more compound movements but I'm not going to scrap isolation because I do think its part of bodybuilding and it works good for me.

Dude you need to calm down 

Go pull it you might feel better


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## PushAndPull (Aug 3, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> Buddy I'm not going back on anything,I'm saying I will add more compound movements but I'm not going to scrap isolation because I do think its part of bodybuilding and it works good for me.
> 
> Dude you need to calm down
> 
> Go pull it you might feel better



I need to calm down? Alright, once you stop being an arrogant, hypocritical, punk bitch, then *maybe* i'll leave it alone. Right now, you don't deserve advice. Gaz and Phineas spend alot of time helping people out here, for free. Which is a really cool thing. You on the other hand, haven't helped anyone. I gave you links to read, did you read them? No, because you're a lazy little bitch that just wants someone to design a routine for him, but will argue with them when it's not to your satisfaction. Nobody here owes you shit you ungrateful bastard. People give you advice and you decide whether to take it or not, but you be cool all the same.


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## gtbmed (Aug 3, 2010)

Shoulders/Arms:

Military press 5x5
CG bench press 3x6-8
DB laterals 3x8-12
Hammer curls 3x10-12
Skullcrushers 3x8-12

Happy lifting.


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## Built (Aug 3, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> Finaly some nice help, well lately I have noticed that my muscles seem to flatten out about 3-4 Days after training them ,they seem to lose the fullness. Thats why I think I might be overtraining,also I dont seem to be lifting as much as a few months ago.
> 
> I would like to start incorporating more compound movements, contrary to what people on here think I belive in them very much,but I still would like to have isolation exercises in there.Not every body is the same and mine reacts very good to heavy isolation.Basically I'm just looking to re-do my workout and rest 3 Days a week.
> 
> Thank you....



Okay, everybody settle down. And by everybody, I mean pushandpull. 

<stern look>

(... don't make me come back there... )

Okay johnson 45, the flatness thing is diet. I know you asked about your programme, but your diet really is 90% of this - you may have a perfectly adequate training split but a diet that would work better with a different arrangement. Happens all the time, and it's easy to fix. 

You want my "nice" help, I'll give it but I need some information before I can proceed:


Height: 5'10"
Weight: 193
Calf
Thigh
Hip at fullest part
waist at navel
Chest
Shoulders, arms down, all the way around your body at the fullest part of the delt
bicep (flexed is fine)
I need a blow-by-blow of your workout - day by day, sets, reps, weight used. 

And I need to know your current approximate macronutrient breakdown - go to FitDay - Free Weight Loss and Diet Journal and enter a typical day's worth of food, and report back:

total calories
grams protein
grams carb 
grams fat

From there, I will be able to help you. In fact, we all will. Yes, even PushAndPull. (PushAndPull, yes you will, and you'll like it.    )

Okay? So come on back, post up some numbers, and I'll make sure the other little boys play nice. 

<irritated sigh>

Damned kids.... <mutters to herself, swearing>


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## johnson 45 (Aug 4, 2010)

Ok this might take some time,but I will get on it. Thank you Everybody...


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## Gazhole (Aug 4, 2010)

Dave Gulledge is the man. Fucking huge.

As has been said, my lack of tone is largely due to the fact that i am a chubby motherfucker who plain loves cake. I like the extra carbs and calories in my diet because i train primarily for strength, thats why i'm not cut up. Right now i'm about 5'10" 185lbs.

As for your program, a lot of people around here are seeing good results with a program i posted on my website called "Destroy & Flood". Lots of big compounds, lots of isolation, but unlike most bodybuilding programs it's actually balanced and specifically designed to produce just the right amount of growth stimulus without overtraining any one muscle group. Overtraining your CNS will depend on your specific capacity, and how much you're eating/resting.

Whether or not you do the program, it's working really well for others atm (and me in the past) so maybe it'll give you some ideas: getlifting.info » Destroy & Flood Training


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## johnson 45 (Aug 4, 2010)

Holly fuck it looks great! I'm going to try this for 6 weeks min and I will post the results, thanks Dude!
Nice site by the way!


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## PushAndPull (Aug 4, 2010)

Well I weighted 185 this morning so i'm in a pretty good mood, and it looks like the OP has changed his tune, so i'll be leaving this thread.


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## Built (Aug 4, 2010)

There. 

Everybody, group hug. 

Gaz, thanks for the reminder about destroy and flood. Definitely gonna check that one out in the fall.


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## Gazhole (Aug 4, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> Holly fuck it looks great! I'm going to try this for 6 weeks min and I will post the results, thanks Dude!
> Nice site by the way!



No problem.

I still highly reccomend you give Built the info she asked you for. Big changes mean big results!


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## johnson 45 (Aug 4, 2010)

Yes for sure I'm going to get Her that info...thanks again everyone.


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## gtbmed (Aug 4, 2010)

Glad you found something that works for you.


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## yeksetm (Aug 5, 2010)

AND ..... When you do your cardio make sure its inside a sauna and your wearing a sweat suit! Sorry but I really have nothing productive to say! 

Gazhole please don't ban me!


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## Gazhole (Aug 5, 2010)

yeksetm said:


> AND ..... When you do your cardio make sure its *inside a sauna and your wearing a sweat suit!* Sorry but I really have nothing productive to say!
> 
> Gazhole please don't ban me!



You forgot all this should be done before breakfast.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 6, 2010)

Why would you want to do cardio in a sauna suit?


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## Gazhole (Aug 6, 2010)

We're being sarcastic. There was a thread a while ago where some jackass went off on a tear because he thought cardio in a sauna suit was perfectly safe, and actually necessary for weight loss.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 6, 2010)

Cardio SUCKS!! I cant stand it! Where I live here in Canada its considered the blueberry capitol , what I'm saying is I love my blueberry pie and it does not go well with cardio.


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## Built (Aug 6, 2010)

Nova Scotia?


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## johnson 45 (Aug 6, 2010)

Yes Amherst area, I moved from Calgary 1 year ago,I was in Calgary for 15 years. From 1 Million to Ten thousand....Sad


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## Built (Aug 6, 2010)

So lemme get this straight - you moved from "the land of jobs" to... Nova Scotia?

That's a first!


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## unclem (Aug 6, 2010)

wow!!!!


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## ROID (Aug 7, 2010)

I look better than all of you, i'm juiced to the gills and no i'm not gonna post a picture.


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## PushAndPull (Aug 20, 2010)

Your lack of intelligence is slightly amusing. The picture in my avatar isn't me. It's Bruce Lee. So it was Bruce Lee that looked like shit, and yeah poor Bruce walked around like that. 
Do mankind a favor and get yourself castrated.


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## PushAndPull (Aug 24, 2010)

I don't argue with little kids in private, so you're wasting your time sending me PM's. If you want to act like a little baby at least do it in public so everyone can get a laugh.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 25, 2010)

PushAndPull said:


> I don't argue with little kids in private, so you're wasting your time sending me PM's. If you want to act like a little baby at least do it in public so everyone can get a laugh.


Guys if I look better than you...wich I do, and I can literaly find hundreds of thousands of pics and stories of bodybuilders who do isolation and yes this includes arms , Who look amazing and all you have is Dave whatever His name is, than doesent it stand to reason that maybe just maybe... your wrong!

If your so right than why dont you look right?? Oh right its cause your not dieting and you have nt tanned and blah blah blah.I'm not dieting either and thats my natural color....so stop with all the excuses,forget giving all this advise, and start training hard and maybe just maybe you will get somewhere. 

If you spend more time on here talking about training than actually training than something is wrong.

Push and pull it, the only reason you posted my Pm is because you need your little little buddies to help you....cause you dont know enough to actually have a debate about it.

Bodybuilding is about angles and if your only doing a few exercises than your not hitting the angles hence your muscles are getting comfortable with doing the same thing,and thats why you cant grow.  But Fuck it, keep training your way Guy and get nowhere.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 25, 2010)

PushAndPull said:


> Your lack of intelligence is slightly amusing. The picture in my avatar isn't me. It's Bruce Lee. So it was Bruce Lee that looked like shit, and yeah poor Bruce walked around like that.
> Do mankind a favor and get yourself castrated.


Ok the pic is about 2inches ( Like your cock ) so sorry if I did not know it was Bruce Lee. But speaking of old bruce here is some info I found on wikipedis about His training you might find interesting. 


The weight training program that Lee used during a stay in Hong Kong in 1965, at only 24 years old, placed heavy emphasis on his arms. At that time he could perform single bicep curls at a weight of 70 to 80 lb (about 32 to 36 kg) for three sets of eight repetitions, along with other forms of exercises, such as squats, push-ups, reverse curls, concentration curls, French presses, and both wrist curls and reverse wrist curls.[63] The repetitions he performed were 6 to 12 reps (at the time). While this method of training targeted his fast and slow twitch muscles, it later resulted in weight gain or muscle mass, placing Lee a little over 160 lb (about 72 kg). Lee was documented as having well over 2,500 books in his own personal library, and eventually concluded that "A stronger muscle, is a bigger muscle", a conclusion he later disputed.[_citation needed_] Bruce forever experimented with his training routines to maximize his physical abilities, and push the human body to its limits. He employed many different routines and exercises including skipping rope, which served his training and bodybuilding purposes effectively.[64]

Wow so what its saying is that by doing isolation He gained size as a bodybuilder. Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesent that go against everything you have been saying ?? LOL Your a fucking fool.

Why do you put a pic of somebody else up? Why dont you put yours? Well we know why dont we?


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## unclem (Aug 25, 2010)

not getting into this one, but, bruce lee has a hell of a lat spread in that picture push and pull put in his avatar. i liked his movies also. i say train the way u want. but i trained my arms and there 22 inches now. just my 2 cents. well hold on, 20 inches 2 inches are oil synthol. but i might get 22 by myself one day, who nos.


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## PushAndPull (Aug 25, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> Ok the pic is about 2inches ( Like your cock ) so sorry if I did not know it was Bruce Lee. But speaking of old bruce here is some info I found on wikipedis about His training you might find interesting.
> 
> 
> The weight training program that Lee used during a stay in Hong Kong in 1965, at only 24 years old, placed heavy emphasis on his arms. At that time he could perform single bicep curls at a weight of 70 to 80 lb (about 32 to 36 kg) for three sets of eight repetitions, along with other forms of exercises, such as squats, push-ups, reverse curls, concentration curls, French presses, and both wrist curls and reverse wrist curls.[63] The repetitions he performed were 6 to 12 reps (at the time). While this method of training targeted his fast and slow twitch muscles, it later resulted in weight gain or muscle mass, placing Lee a little over 160 lb (about 72 kg). Lee was documented as having well over 2,500 books in his own personal library, and eventually concluded that "A stronger muscle, is a bigger muscle", a conclusion he later disputed.[_citation needed_] Bruce forever experimented with his training routines to maximize his physical abilities, and push the human body to its limits. He employed many different routines and exercises including skipping rope, which served his training and bodybuilding purposes effectively.[64]
> ...



Jesus, you're a fucking moron. I never said you shouldn't train your arms just that an entire day devoted to them is a waste. You know what would be cool? If you and your family died. The world would be a better place.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 25, 2010)

PushAndPull said:


> Jesus, you're a fucking moron. I never said you shouldn't train your arms just that an entire day devoted to them is a waste. You know what would be cool? If you and your family died. The world would be a better place.


You where agreeing with the others right? And what where the others saying? Your idea of training arms was doing back is good enough for bis and bench will work you tris just fine.Why dont you go back and read it. If I did die I would come back as the AIDS virus, than when you fucked your boyfriend I could infect all your cells,but dont worry it wouldent effect your training, cause you dont know how anyway.

Hey you still dident put a pic up, why not?? LOL Maybe you could take One than bring it to a professional computer Guy and get Him to alter it...but Hey make sure He is really really really really really GOOD cause holly fuck He better be to fix that.He better be the best in the world...like the inventer of Photoshop or the best graphics designer EVER! Or maybe just give it to bill gates, see if He knows anybody who can fix your pic. I dont even think they have invented a program that can fix your pic. Maybe you can go BACK TO THE FUTURE get some different parents with better genetics be rebourn and than maybe you could take the pic.


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## PushAndPull (Aug 25, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> You where agreeing with the others right? And what where the others saying? Your idea of training arms was doing back is good enough for bis and bench will work you tris just fine.Why dont you go back and read it. If I did die I would come back as the AIDS virus, than when you fucked your boyfriend I could infect all your cells,but dont worry it wouldent effect your training, cause you dont know how anyway.
> 
> Hey you still dident put a pic up, why not?? LOL Maybe you could take One than bring it to a professional computer Guy and get Him to alter it...but Hey make sure He is really really really really really GOOD cause holly fuck He better be to fix that.He better be the best in the world...like the inventer of Photoshop or the best graphics designer EVER! Or maybe just give it to bill gates, see if He knows anybody who can fix your pic. I dont even think they have invented a program that can fix your pic. Maybe you can go BACK TO THE FUTURE get some different parents with better genetics and than maybe you could take the pic.



I was agreeing with the others that arm training is overrated. I also agreed with the others that you're a complete fucking idiot. Wow, maybe I should run out an take a pic right away just to make you happy. Then again maybe not. "Ok the pic is about 2inches ( Like your cock )" seriously are your really a kid? Please kill your family and then yourself.


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## unclem (Aug 25, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> You where agreeing with the others right? And what where the others saying? Your idea of training arms was doing back is good enough for bis and bench will work you tris just fine.Why dont you go back and read it. If I did die I would come back as the AIDS virus, than when you fucked your boyfriend I could infect all your cells,but dont worry it wouldent effect your training, cause you dont know how anyway.
> 
> Hey you still dident put a pic up, why not?? LOL Maybe you could take One than bring it to a professional computer Guy and get Him to alter it...but Hey make sure He is really really really really really GOOD cause holly fuck He better be to fix that.He better be the best in the world...like the inventer of Photoshop or the best graphics designer EVER! Or maybe just give it to bill gates, see if He knows anybody who can fix your pic. I dont even think they have invented a program that can fix your pic. Maybe you can go BACK TO THE FUTURE get some different parents with better genetics be rebourn and than maybe you could take the pic.


 
 johnson 45 iam shocked, jk lol, your a good dude imo. hey ill give you some reps brother.


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## PushAndPull (Aug 25, 2010)

unclem said:


> johnson 45 iam shocked, jk lol, your a good dude imo. hey ill give you some reps brother.



Well the maybe you two should kill each other. This little prick should have just left this thread alone. Nobody had posted shit in this thread for a good two weeks it was over. Then out of the blue he neg reps me and starts talking shit about Bruce Lee? So you can go fuck yourself too.


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## Gazhole (Aug 25, 2010)

This is really boring now. Shut the fuck up both of you.

Is there a chance we can get this thread back on track, or shall i just close it and give you a few days to cool off? Your choice.

Just leave eachother alone.

Johnson, leave shit alone if you don't like whats going on in here. Shit stirring is pointless. Let it die.

PushAndPull, don't rise to him if he's that much of a prick. Be the bigger man here, okay?


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## PushAndPull (Aug 25, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> This is really boring now. Shut the fuck up both of you.
> 
> Is there a chance we can get this thread back on track, or shall i just close it and give you a few days to cool off? Your choice.



Do what you got to do. I left this thread alone just like I said I would in my earlier post. Two weeks later he starts talking shit to me?


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## PushAndPull (Aug 25, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> This is really boring now. Shut the fuck up both of you.
> 
> Is there a chance we can get this thread back on track, or shall i just close it and give you a few days to cool off? Your choice.
> 
> ...



What did I respond before you finished?  Fine, I'll leave it alone if he does.


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## Gazhole (Aug 25, 2010)

PushAndPull said:


> Do what you got to do. I left this thread alone just like I said I would in my earlier post. Two weeks later he starts talking shit to me?



No, i totally get that. You contribute a lot to this section which i respect, and is the reason i even posted before acting on this.

The only thing i dont like is the death threats and stuff, but if you leave it now i'll leave it.

Cool?


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## Gazhole (Aug 25, 2010)

PushAndPull said:


> What did I respond before you finished?  Fine, I'll leave it alone if he does.



You're just too quick for my shitty internet connection.


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## PushAndPull (Aug 25, 2010)

Gazhole said:


> No, i totally get that. You contribute a lot to this section which i respect, and is the reason i even posted before acting on this.
> 
> The only thing i dont like is the death threats and stuff, but if you leave it now i'll leave it.
> 
> Cool?



Yeah that's cool. Oh and I never really made death threats, I only wished for death.


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## Gazhole (Aug 25, 2010)

PushAndPull said:


> Yeah that's cool. Oh and I never really made death threats, I only wished for death.



Well thats fine then obviously


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## johnson 45 (Aug 25, 2010)

I think we are entertaining other members lol Ok fuck it I will stop also. Hey Gazol how can you shut down a thread? I thought only prince could do that.


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## johnson 45 (Aug 25, 2010)

But what about all my rep points He keeps taking? What will I do without them? When it gets to zero will that be it? Will I die? Maybe thats how He is going to kill me. Hey if it gets to minus in rep points do I owe Him something? I could write Him up a program.
I'm just kidding Gazole,I dont give Two shits less about rep points. Hey thats almost discrimination,being judge on rep points. I'm kidding I dont think anybody else gives a fuck about them either.

No point in taking it to sirius,I have had a smile on my face the hole time.Its some funny shit!


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## PushAndPull (Aug 25, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> But what about all my rep points He keeps taking? What will I do without them? When it gets to zero will that be it? Will I die? Maybe thats how He is going to kill me. Hey if it gets to minus in rep points do I owe Him something? I could write Him up a program.
> I'm just kidding Gazole,I dont give Two shits less about rep points. Hey thats almost discrimination,being judge on rep points. I'm kidding I dont think anybody else gives a fuck about them either.
> 
> No point in taking it to sirius,I have had a smile on my face the hole time.Its some funny shit!



See how this post isn't leaving it alone? I don't care if it's directed at Gaz you're still talking about me. I give you neg rep points because you're a fucking douchebag and I need to spread reps around in order to give other members who actually make good posts reps. I know you also PM other people starting shit, because this is the only attention you probably get.


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## Gazhole (Aug 25, 2010)

johnson 45 said:


> I think we are entertaining other members lol Ok fuck it I will stop also. Hey Gazol how can you shut down a thread? I thought only prince could do that.



Mods can also do that, as well as issuing infractions etc. If Prince had to do the entire site by himself i think he would go insane dealing with threads like this all the time.


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