# Is Ephedra Legal?



## TheLabGuy (Sep 23, 2010)

Lots of supplement companies say that they have a legal Ephedra product---that's legal.
What do you think about the subject?


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## Arnold (Sep 23, 2010)

I believe in a low dose it's legal, don't remember the specifics though.


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## vortrit (Sep 23, 2010)

They used to sell it everywhere then they made it illegal. I had a bottle of Stacker II I bought a long time ago which were packed with it. I finally just threw them away last year. I don't like the jittery feel it gives you.


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## LAM (Sep 23, 2010)

yes it is legal but it is "illegal" to market it for weight loss in the US.


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## vortrit (Sep 23, 2010)

It is also banned from most major sports.


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## MasterChemist (Sep 27, 2010)

*The real scoop*



LAM said:


> yes it is legal but it is "illegal" to market it for weight loss in the US.


 
Not true your lack of information may reveal your true intent.... lets see...

Please explain to me your rational for it being legal...

This will be fun.


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## MasterChemist (Sep 27, 2010)

Sorry about that stuff at the bottom I did not intend to post it so many times....


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## blergs. (Sep 27, 2010)

Prince said:


> I believe in a low dose it's legal, don't remember the specifics though.


yes its legal never mind ephedra get pure ephedrin HCL this way you know EXACLY the amount your getting.
te lays are they cant sdell it as a ft burner or energy pills or any of that.
they are allowed ot sell it as an *ORAL NASAL DECONGESTANT* and i thinl thelimit per tab is 8mg/tab. (but on line from over seas you can find more MG per tab)


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## blergs. (Sep 27, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> Not true your lack of information may reveal your true intent.... lets see...
> 
> Please explain to me your rational for it being legal...
> 
> This will be fun.


umm maybe because it IS FUKIGN LEGAL!
for medical uses NOT fatloss or energy as posted above. and it has been for a few years now!
same goes for canada aswell.


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## Du (Sep 27, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> Not true your lack of information may reveal your true intent.... lets see...
> 
> Please explain to me your rational for it being legal...
> 
> This will be fun.




Would be interested to see YOUR true intent... 

LAM is spot on, especially with his use of quotation marks.


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## Built (Sep 27, 2010)

This one pops up from time to time here. 

Ephedra is an herb. Its sale - or the sale of its alkaloids, such as ephedrine HCL - as a dietary supplement is not legal in the USA.
Guidance for Industry: Final Rule Declaring Dietary Supplements Containing Ephedrine Alkaloids Adulterated Because They Present an Unreasonable Risk; Small Entity Compliance Guide

*I. Introduction*
On February 11, 2004, FDA published in the Federal Register a final rule that established a regulation declaring dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids adulterated under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act because they present an unreasonable risk of illness or injury under the conditions of use recommended or suggested in labeling, or if no conditions of use are suggested or recommended in labeling, under ordinary conditions of use (69 FR 6787). The final rule became effective on April 12, 2004. FDA has prepared this Small Entity Compliance Guide in accordance with section 212 of the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act (Public Law 104-121). This guidance document restates in plain language the legal requirements set forth in 21 CFR 119.1 concerning dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids. This regulation is binding and has the full force and effect of law.

FDA's guidance documents, including this guidance, do not establish legally enforceable responsibilities. Instead, guidances describe the Agency's current thinking on a topic and should be viewed only as recommendations, unless specific regulatory or statutory requirements are cited. The use of the word should in Agency guidances means that something is suggested or recommended, but not required.

*
II. Questions and Answers*

What does the regulation state about the legal status of dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids?

The regulation states that dietary supplements that contain ephedrine alkaloids are adulterated under section 402(f)(1)(A) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (21 U.S.C. 342(f)(1)(A)). It is illegal to market an adulterated dietary supplement.


What is the basis for concluding that dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids are adulterated?

Dietary supplements that contain ephedrine alkaloids present an unreasonable risk of illness or injury under conditions of use recommended or suggested in the labeling, or if no conditions of use are recommended or suggested in the labeling, under ordinary conditions of use (21 CFR 119.1).


What scientific evaluation did FDA rely upon when issuing the final regulation on dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids?

FDA took this action based upon the well-known pharmacology of ephedrine alkaloids, the peer-reviewed scientific literature on the effects of ephedrine alkaloids, and the adverse events reported to have occurred in individuals following consumption of dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids (69 FR at 6788).
(1)This guidance has been prepared by the Division of Dietary Supplement Programs in the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition at the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

Page Last Updated: 09/15/2009
_____________________________________

So if I'm reading this correctly, Ephedra (the herb) or ephedrine HCL (the OTC medication) are legal if sold alone as decongestants, but not if combined with other agents and sold as a dietary supplement.

In Canada most supplement stores sell these "decongestants" in 8mg tablets, by the case.


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## LAM (Sep 27, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> Not true your lack of information may reveal your true intent.... lets see...
> 
> Please explain to me your rational for it being legal...
> 
> This will be fun.



Dietary Supplements Containing Ephedrine Alkaloids

how about a little STFU!


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## MasterChemist (Sep 27, 2010)

blergs. said:


> umm maybe because it IS FUKIGN LEGAL!
> for medical uses NOT fatloss or energy as posted above. and it has been for a few years now!
> same goes for canada aswell.


 
Actually no it is not..   and obviously the conversation was about fat burning pills.  So lets stay on the subject not get distracted.  

Judging by your ability to articulate your self I would advise against getting into a pissing contest on the boards with me.


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## Built (Sep 27, 2010)

Ooooh, the smackdown!  

Popeye's sells it here in Canada. It's sold with the fatburners. But it is clearly labeled "decongestant".


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## MasterChemist (Sep 27, 2010)

Du said:


> Would be interested to see YOUR true intent...
> 
> LAM is spot on, especially with his use of quotation marks.


 

I asked to explain psoiton why it is legal... even with quotation marks and all I get is... Yes it is legal... What proof?? 

It would be easy just list why it would not be inviolation of CFR Title 21 section 111 and 119.


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## LAM (Sep 27, 2010)

Like I stated legal for sale but not for weight loss...

FDA Statement on Tenth Circuit's Ruling to Uphold FDA Decision Banning Dietary Supplements Containing Ephedrine Alkaloids

no shocker since we all know that Monsanto's bitch I mean the FDA is a joke...


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## Built (Sep 27, 2010)

MasterChemist, settle down. Ephedra and ephedrine alkyloids such as ephedrine HCL are legal for sale as OTC decongestants in the USA. If a supplement company sells it as a legal ephedra product, they are allowed to do so - provided they sell it as a decongestant. 

It may not be combined with other actives and sold as a dietary supplement because doing so creates an adulterated dietary supplement. It is similarly illegal to mix aspirin with a multivitamin and sell it as a dietary supplement, - although it is perfectly legal to mix aspirin and caffeine and sell it as a migraine remedy (OTC medication).  Caffeine exists in foods we normally consume, so it may be added to dietary supplements without changing their status to "adulterated". 

Now kiss and make up, okay? (And when you do, kindly take pix and PM them to me thankyouverymuch.)


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## MasterChemist (Sep 27, 2010)

*Good info*

Built has good info on it.  But a little more clarity, 1) the alkaloids of ephedra are Ephedrine (no HCL), and some others.  The HCL is a synthetic version they don???t use the alkaloids from the plant to make the synthetic, they use much cheaper starting materials.  So Ephedrine HCL is a synthetic and chemically altered drug, which has been around forever at no time, has been able to be sold as dietary supplement.  Granted people have been using it like one for years.

The reg (CFR 119) speaks to Ephedrine Alkaloids, which include, Ephedrine, Nor ephedrine, Pseudoephedrine and a host of others, even if they are naturally occurring, naturally occurring.


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## Du (Sep 27, 2010)

Built said:


> MasterChemist, settle down. Ephedra and ephedrine alkyloids such as ephedrine HCL are legal for sale as OTC decongestants in the USA. If a supplement company sells it as a legal ephedra product, they are allowed to do so - provided they sell it as a decongestant.
> 
> It may not be combined with other actives and sold as a dietary supplement because doing so creates an adulterated dietary supplement. It is similarly illegal to mix aspirin with a multivitamin and sell it as a dietary supplement, - although it is perfectly legal to mix aspirin and caffeine and sell it as a migraine remedy (OTC medication).  Caffeine exists in foods we normally consume, so it may be added to dietary supplements without changing their status to "adulterated".
> 
> Now kiss and make up, okay? (And when you do, kindly take pix and PM them to me thankyouverymuch.)





Just to add to this --- if I recall correctly, the court has instructed the FDA that they are prohibited from prosecuting cases in which less than 10mg Eph are marketed at dietary supplements. Believe this was from the Appeals Court after the Utah decision.


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## Built (Sep 27, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> Built has good info on it.  But a little more clarity, 1) the alkaloids of ephedra are Ephedrine (no HCL), and some others.  The HCL is a synthetic version they don’t use the alkaloids from the plant to make the synthetic, they use much cheaper starting materials.  So Ephedrine HCL is a synthetic and chemically altered drug, which has been around forever at no time, has been able to be sold as dietary supplement.  Granted people have been using it like one for years.
> 
> The reg (CFR 119) speaks to Ephedrine Alkaloids, which include, Ephedrine, Nor ephedrine, Pseudoephedrine and a host of others, even if they are naturally occurring, naturally occurring.


Interesting - I had been lead to believe the Chinese export a great deal of raw Ephedra for the manufacture of ephedrine HCL. However, I've read about pseudoephedrine being grown from yeast fed with dextrose and treated with something; I wonder if perhaps it's sometimes cost effective to make ephedrine HCL from the plant? Or is this a false memory I'm having? (I've been known to have more than one or two of those)


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## MasterChemist (Sep 27, 2010)

Couple points
This ruling reinforced the FDA rule which made Ephedra with Ephedrine Alkaloids illegal to sell a dietary supplement.

Ephedrine HCL has never been a dietary supplement it has always been an OTC DRUG.

Ephedra with alkaloids has never been approved as an OTC drug. Only Ephedrine HCL.

There for if Ephedra with alkaloids is labeled as a drug with drug claims such as "Use as a decongestant" it would be considered an unapproved new drug and therefore misbranded.

If Ephedrine HCL is a drug and must be Manufactured, Distributed and sold to the consumer as an OTC drug. If the proper license and permits. As retail establishment you would need an OTC permit for distribution of OTC drugs. 

In the US anyways.

So Ephedrine HCL is a drug has always been a drug and never a dietary supplement. 

Ephedra with alkaloids used to be able to be sold as a dietary supplement but sec 119 made it unable to be sold. And since it was never approved as a drug it can???t be sold as a drug either.


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## Built (Sep 27, 2010)

Gotta love your convoluted drug and supplement laws. They're even worse than ours: in Canada, it is legal to own and use anabolic steroids. It is illegal to purchase them or to sell them unless by prescription.


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## MasterChemist (Sep 27, 2010)

Built said:


> Interesting - I had been lead to believe the Chinese export a great deal of raw Ephedra for the manufacture of ephedrine HCL. However, I've read about pseudoephedrine being grown from yeast fed with dextrose and treated with something; I wonder if perhaps it's sometimes cost effective to make ephedrine HCL from the plant? Or is this a false memory I'm having? (I've been known to have more than one or two of those)


 
Maybe they used to make it from a plant but I highly doubt it today.  Most drugs are made in china right now very little in us.  The us does still have alot of finshed goods palnts though..  The Blending, Packaging distribution part.  

In the case of Ephedrine HCL.  Its sales are being regulated more and more due to Meth production.  So I would imagine they even track the starting materials now.


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## MasterChemist (Sep 27, 2010)

Built said:


> Gotta love your convoluted drug and supplement laws. They're even worse than ours: in Canada, it is legal to own and use anabolic steroids. It is illegal to purchase them or to sell them unless by prescription.


 

Yea steroids in the US... Not a good thing..  They are becomming more and more strict and lowering the dosage that is considered distribution... You can get them medically prescribed to you but your tet levels have to be pretty low, and if your test levels are low..  taking test does not address the actuall problem..  which is andropause.


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## MasterChemist (Sep 27, 2010)

Du said:


> Just to add to this --- if I recall correctly, the court has instructed the FDA that they are prohibited from prosecuting cases in which less than 10mg Eph are marketed at dietary supplements. Believe this was from the Appeals Court after the Utah decision.


 

That was overturned by a higher court that ruling is very old..  They have sucessfully proceuted may companies since 06 on this.


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## vortrit (Sep 27, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> Please explain to me your rational for it being legal...



That don't even make sense. He said it was illegal to sell and market it as a dietary supplement. 

On 12 April 2004, the FDA issued a final rule banning the sale of ephedra-containing dietary supplements.  

That does not make it illegal for other uses.


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## Built (Sep 27, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> Yea steroids in the US... Not a good thing..  They are becomming more and more strict and lowering the dosage that is considered distribution... You can get them medically prescribed to you but your tet levels have to be pretty low, and if your test levels are low..  taking test does not address the actuall problem..  which is andropause.


How does it not address the actual problem?


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## jmorrison (Sep 27, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> Actually no it is not..   and obviously the conversation was about fat burning pills.  So lets stay on the subject not get distracted.
> 
> Judging by your ability to articulate your self I would advise against getting into a pissing contest on the boards with me.




HIS ability to articulate himself?  You sound like Borat with downs.

Negged hard.


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## vortrit (Sep 27, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> HIS ability to articulate himself?  You sound like Borat with downs.
> 
> Negged hard.



Word.


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## blergs. (Sep 28, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> HIS ability to articulate himself?  You sound like Borat with downs.
> 
> Negged hard.



yahh the guys an A-hole.
after the rest of his posts im not even mad, now he just looks like a dumbass that likes to use big words to make up for his short commings.
mehh w/e 
negged


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## cavtrooper96 (Sep 28, 2010)

Most of you are correct. Most of the supplements/fatburners that contain ephedra use the whole plant or leaves and contain no alkaloids. It is the alkaloids that have been proven to burn fat whereas the normal ephedra has not. I have had no luck with any of the new ephedra fat burners.

Save your money and get some bronchaid from the drug store. It has ephedrine HCL and it works.


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## MasterChemist (Sep 28, 2010)

Built said:


> How does it not address the actual problem?


 
Andro pause is your body not producing test any more.. testosterone supplements the actual end result but your body is still not producing it.  There could be something wrong with the TPA or the actual tissues and glands atrophying which is usually the case and need to be addressed first before supplementation.


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## MasterChemist (Sep 28, 2010)

vortrit said:


> That don't even make sense. He said it was illegal to sell and market it as a dietary supplement.
> 
> On 12 April 2004, the FDA issued a final rule banning the sale of ephedra-containing dietary supplements.
> 
> That does not make it illegal for other uses.


 
His original quote was 
_yes it is *legal* but it is *"illegal"* to market it for weight loss in the US._

_My point is Ephedra containing alkaloids is banned as dietary supplement and never had been apporved as a drug in us._

_Ephedrine HCL which is not a naturally occuring alkaloid of the palnt but sythetically made and chemically altered is a drug and has alway been a drug in the US.  _

_So no it Ephedra with alkaloids in not legal in any formate.  If you use ephedra with alkaloids and try to get around the law by labeling it a decongestant.  The FDA would delcare that product an "Unapporved New Drug"_


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## Built (Sep 28, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> Andro pause is your body not producing test any more.. testosterone supplements the actual end result but your body is still not producing it.  There could be something wrong with the TPA or the actual tissues and glands atrophying which is usually the case and need to be addressed first before supplementation.


By the time your body isn't producing test, there is clearly something wrong. How often is it possible to set it right without HRT? And I mean REALLY right, not just restored to the bottom end of normal? Let me further clarify that I am not talking about post-cycle therapy here; the reason I ask is because my husband and I are both on HRT.


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## MasterChemist (Sep 28, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> HIS ability to articulate himself? You sound like Borat with downs.
> 
> Negged hard.


 
What are you in high school??  Grow up! 

I am trying to clear though the BS and give you guys the real true info, an yet your desire for things to be the way you want them to be sets aside all reason.  

Companies right now are playing on the fact that in this industry, people would like nothing more than for actual ephedra to be legal....  And it is not.  

They entice you to buy products labled as ephedra with no alkaloids in it....  What is the point?

They sell a OTC Drug with out a licence and entice you to use it off label.  Not even knowing the effects of the co decongestant that is blended with it.  (I am speaking of US I am not sure what Canadas rules are.)

They rely on your ignorance and lack of education and through forums like this to spew BS from 14 year old high school student playing on a computer, and think it is funny. 

Unknowing being a pawn in a larger scam played by people who don???t care if a product is safe or even if it work.

Grow up and wake up, your ignorance exposes you to a life time of working at chucky cheese.


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## MasterChemist (Sep 28, 2010)

Built said:


> By the time your body isn't producing test, there is clearly something wrong. How often is it possible to set it right without HRT? And I mean REALLY right, not just restored to the bottom end of normal? Let me further clarify that I am not talking about post-cycle therapy here; the reason I ask is because my husband and I are both on HRT.


 

I agree that HRT helps people feel good and younger. But I was speaking of if people are having problems producing base hormone levels. That needs to be addressed through diet (which I can go into for ever about). If low test levels is found in conjuction with high estrogen in males that is a sure sign of to much sugar in diet. 

The other thing that is usually good about HRT is people are usually more strict on a diet when taking this. But HRT remember is a program that supplemnts hormones which stimulate certain processes. Even PST is a supplementary thing. 
test levels can get pretty high just form correction of diet and exersise and regulary taking teas that work on the TPA. But GH is another story, that is much harder since.

By the way I am not a fruit and nut health finatic. I am a real chemist who actually develops this type of stuff. Working mostly with supplements. But there are may constituatnts of herbs that are just a powerfull as drugs. The trick is making sure the herb is what it say it is. Most herbs dont have an identification method established for them so it is hard to find quality sources, and keep the quality up.

As far a diet.. A good diet computer program and sites helps alot for figuring out what you need. For instance, did you know it is very hard to get the levels of Zinc, Magnesium and Calcium in the diet, you need? With out these your body will not produce the hormones you need to keep up.
Along with Vitamin D.. Creatine, Arginine.. all not so easy to get in the diet, it can be done. And those computer programs help alot. Also nutritiondata at self.com is a great site to really break down a food and recipie.


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## ZECH (Sep 28, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> Yea steroids in the US... Not a good thing..  They are becomming more and more strict and lowering the dosage that is considered distribution... You can get them medically prescribed to you but your tet levels have to be pretty low, and if your test levels are low..  taking test does not address the actuall problem..  which is andropause.



LMAO. Don't even start to tell us you are an expert on steroids also, because it's evident from this post you're not.


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## ZECH (Sep 28, 2010)

By the time a male's test levels get low mostly after age 40, there is no correction to correct this other than supplementing with exogenous test. Diet does shit.....


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## MasterChemist (Sep 28, 2010)

blergs. said:


> yahh the guys an A-hole.
> after the rest of his posts im not even mad, now he just looks like a dumbass that likes to use big words to make up for his short commings.
> mehh w/e
> negged


 
What big word am I using??  I think you, Vortit, and jmorrison.  Need to go back to the sand box and let the grown up discuss this.

Negged..... Ha.. Ha... Haaaaaa!


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## MasterChemist (Sep 28, 2010)

dg806 said:


> By the time a male's test levels get low mostly after age 40, there is no correction to correct this other than supplementing with exogenous test. Diet does shit.....


 

Not true, not in that case all males over 40 would have low test and they dont. There is also more to diet than just P,C,F.


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## MasterChemist (Sep 28, 2010)

dg806 said:


> LMAO. Don't even start to tell us you are an expert on steroids also, because it's evident from this post you're not.


 
What by chance would make that evident???  Test does not correct the problem of low test..  It just supplements test... the problem usually lies in the TPA..


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## MasterChemist (Sep 28, 2010)

cavtrooper96 said:


> Most of you are correct. Most of the supplements/fatburners that contain ephedra use the whole plant or leaves and contain no alkaloids. It is the alkaloids that have been proven to burn fat whereas the normal ephedra has not. I have had no luck with any of the new ephedra fat burners.
> 
> Save your money and get some bronchaid from the drug store. It has ephedrine HCL and it works.


 
You are absolutley correct and I assume that most people dont know that.  My stance on this and what I have been trying to get out there is dont be fooled... its a scam about Ephedra...

Now Ephedrine HCL is totally differnt.


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## vortrit (Sep 28, 2010)




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## jmorrison (Sep 28, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> What are you in high school??  Grow up!
> 
> I am trying to clear though the BS and give you guys the real true info, an yet your desire for things to be the way you want them to be sets aside all reason.
> 
> ...




I just dont see your motivation for the thread.  What ignorance are you talking about?  What scam?  What lack of education?  I don't see what you are getting at.

I go to wally world and buy my ephedrine HCL (as a decongstant).  I dont have a prescription, nor am I buying it from Larry the crack dealer outside.  So if it is illegal, there are some slow feds around my house.

If ephedra the herbal compound is illegal...ok?  You can still buy it from many sources.  

I guess what I am asking is, what the hell is your point?


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## vortrit (Sep 28, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> What big word am I using??  I think you, Vortit, and jmorrison.  Need to go back to the sand box and let the grown up discuss this.
> 
> Negged..... Ha.. Ha... Haaaaaa!



You truly are retarded, aren't you?


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## MasterChemist (Sep 29, 2010)

jmorrison said:


> I just dont see your motivation for the thread. What ignorance are you talking about? What scam? What lack of education? I don't see what you are getting at.
> 
> I go to wally world and buy my ephedrine HCL (as a decongstant). I dont have a prescription, nor am I buying it from Larry the crack dealer outside. So if it is illegal, there are some slow feds around my house.
> 
> ...


 
The original question was is ephedra legal...  I calrified.  That was the point.


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## MasterChemist (Sep 29, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> The original question was is ephedra legal... I calrified. That was the point.


 
I unerstand you know about the Ephedrine HCL, but ephedrine HCL and Ephedra are two totally different subjects.

Ephedrine HCL has been an otc drug for many years.

It was the herb Ephedra that was poplularized not ephedrine HCL.  And the reason it was so popular was becasue it was promoted as a natural supplemnt not a drug.  

Proof for that is Ephedrine HCL was around for years before the Epehdra Diet Craze and it did not have any were near the sales.  And it is around now with nowhere near the sales.  

That is because the general consumer is less likely to take it as an OTC drug, and there was more freedom to market claims as a dietary supplement.

So the companies are still saying they are selling *ephedra* in the US and trying to recapitalize on that popularity.

And they are lying.  

So it is very important to carify this to help the general public know what the scoop is.  And boards like thsi come up when the general public searches for this question.

Even you guys on here who are obviously educated are confused as noted by posting.. it is legal.. it isnt... its legal.. but not as a deitary supplemnt...  Here is the whole answer to the original question.  

*Is Ephedra legal?*

Ephedra with alkaloids (the stuff that made it work) is *illegal*.

*Ephedra with out alkaloids is a scam*.  And companies saying they have ephedra in it are being decietfull.  

*Ephedrine HCL is a* *OTC drug* sold as a decongestant and has been sold that way for along time.  

In the US (at least in Cali) many of the products that had ephedrine HCL in it were reformulated to either not contain it or lowered the dose.  And you need to give your drivers licence to get it.  

And there has been some debate that the guaifenesin that is required to be formulated with it in the U.S. might counter acter the actual fat burning effects.  (that is another topic).


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## ZECH (Sep 30, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> Test does not correct the problem of low test..  It just supplements test... the problem usually lies in the TPA..



Please read my previous post.


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## MasterChemist (Sep 30, 2010)

dg806 said:


> Please read my previous post.


 
This one
"By the time a male's test levels get low mostly after age 40, there is no correction to correct this other than supplementing with exogenous test. Diet does shit..... "

Is that the one you are talking about??

I responded to that already.  I agree that supplementing test helps the people feel better and it is a quick solution.  But with most people the problem is either in there TPA (which unless damaged) can be corrected through diet and exersise.  It just takes alot longer than supplementing test.  Most people dont realise that how much sugar they have taken in and over how long of a period.  Sugar really negatively effects the TPA and casues test to have a higher covertion rate to est.  

A decent low level of sugar is about 30-40 gr/day.  Most people when added up are eating more line 100-200 gr/day. Also they eat it with out the fiber/prot and fat you need.  Especially males.  That is why you normally see a rise in type 2 diabetes/low test/and impotance all in the same age group.  

Not to mention the low levels of EFA in diet.  We are over fed and under nourished.  

But that being said it is really hard to get all the nutrinets you need from food.  I recently bought a computer diet program to track all nutrients in my diet, and even wiht the hlep of that is is hard to get a diet that give you low, sugar, high EFA, and the Calcium/Mag/Zinc/Vit D3/creatine/arginine etc and other nutrinets you need.  You can do it but is is not easy.  On top of that you need to estimate in your diet at least 200% of RDA not 100% due to cooking drops most nutirent levels by that much.  

So you can do it through diet but you need a planing computer program, good sources of fresh food, and the will to prepare and eat 6 times a day.  Also exersise.

I know this becasue I am in the proecess of doing it and making progress.  I am also using lab tesing on blood and saliva to track results.  BTW I am over 40 and it is working, slowly.. but it is.


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## blergs. (Sep 30, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> What are you in high school??  Grow up!
> 
> I am trying to clear though the BS and give you guys the real true info, an yet your desire for things to be the way you want them to be sets aside all reason.
> 
> ...


?????? it some times is blended but its not needed the EPHEDRINE IS the decongestant.

you have your head so far up your ass you don't see just how stupid your really are. lol


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## blergs. (Sep 30, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> This one
> "By the time a male's test levels get low mostly after age 40, there is no correction to correct this other than supplementing with exogenous test. Diet does shit..... "
> 
> Is that the one you are talking about??
> ...



 hahahahahaha


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## blergs. (Sep 30, 2010)

dg806 said:


> LMAO. Don't even start to tell us you are an expert on steroids also, because it's evident from this post you're not.



I agree 1000% 
this guy clearly knows everything.


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## vortrit (Sep 30, 2010)

dg806 said:


> LMAO. Don't even start to tell us you are an expert on steroids also, because it's evident from this post you're not.



More likely a Massengill expert.


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## ZECH (Sep 30, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> This one
> "By the time a male's test levels get low mostly after age 40, there is no correction to correct this other than supplementing with exogenous test. Diet does shit..... "
> 
> Is that the one you are talking about??
> ...



Do you have studies to show that diet increases test levels? 
Do you know where test production begins?


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## MasterChemist (Oct 1, 2010)

dg806 said:


> Do you have studies to show that diet increases test levels?
> Do you know where test production begins?


 
Just google test and diet an you will find a million... just from D-aspartate to zinc... even calcium has been linked.  

But more important high sugar has been linked to low test high est..  

and yes some adrenal but mostly the nuts, but that is just the production, you have to adddress the stimulation of production and then also keeping it high (not converting to est) once it is stimulated.

Its just like manufacturing supplement, you can have the most state of the are equipment in the world to manufacture supplements, but with out electricty,  what good is it... with out a maintance program the machines eventually break down and... and with out quality starting materials the supplements wont work like they are supposed to.

Test production has less to do with the symptom of low test and more to do with other stuff.  Most people can get healthy levels naturally.

Now if you want more than healthy levels than that is a whole different topic.


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## Built (Oct 1, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> Just google test and diet an you will find a million... just from D-aspartate to zinc... even calcium has been linked.



Those are only in cases of deficiency. 


MasterChemist said:


> But more important high sugar has been linked to low test high est..


In insulin resistance and obesity, sure - adipose is the home of aromatase. In a deficit, or at maintenance in healthy leans? I don't think so. 



MasterChemist said:


> and yes some adrenal but mostly the nuts, but that is just the production, you have to adddress the stimulation of production and then also keeping it high (not converting to est) once it is stimulated.
> 
> Its just like manufacturing supplement, you can have the most state of the are equipment in the world to manufacture supplements, but with out electricty,  what good is it... with out a maintance program the machines eventually break down and... and with out quality starting materials the supplements wont work like they are supposed to.
> 
> ...



Define "healthy" levels.


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## MasterChemist (Oct 1, 2010)

Built said:


> Those are only in cases of deficiency.
> 
> that is just my point most low test levels is casued by deficiancy not an actual problem, diet can correct it.  But in the case of caclium, zinc, it would be very hard to get nutritionally adiquite levels in the diet with out milk products and lean red meat at a decent levels.
> 
> ...


 
healthy level would be a normal (more mid range no low end) to high range.

That level should be reached first then if you want to boost it up more supplemnt, but if you supplement you will atrophy your system during that time and will have to take another drug to bring that back to normal.. than another drug..  then another drug...  Get my point.


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## vortrit (Oct 1, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> healthy level would be a normal (more mid range no low end) to high range.
> 
> That level should be reached first then if you want to boost it up more supplemnt, but if you supplement you will atrophy your system during that time and will have to take another drug to bring that back to normal.. *than another drug..  then another drug...  *Get my point.



And eventually you will be addicted to crack.


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## Built (Oct 1, 2010)

Low testosterone is SOMETIMES caused by nutrient deficiency. Mine was not. Neither was my husband's. In my case, I have chronically elevated levels of SHBG from oral contraceptive use in my thirties. This is known to permanently elevate SHBG, thus permanently lowering bioavailable test in women. In my husband's case, it was related to a congenital infertility problem. He had SOME test. Low normal, when he was younger. Then too low in his early forties. 
How - in the absence of insulin resistance - will a high-sugar diet raise the conversion of testosterone to estrogen? Are you thinking of the effect of insulin on aromatase, or some other mechanism? How high are we talking here, and what kind of sugar - glucose? Fructose? 
As an aside, I'm delighted to hear my current diet provides plenty of zinc and calcium. My health improved measurably since upping my consumption of animal proteins and fats. 


MasterChemist said:


> healthy level would be a normal (more mid range no low end) to high range.


But that's kinda individual, isn't it? Plus you need to distinguish amongst free, bioavailable free and total test - and these can and do vary considerably when other factors are in place. For instance, hypothyroidism suppresses SHBG, meaning even a low test-level will show high bioavailable test. Is this optimal? Hardly. It has to be read in context. 

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on my other points - that is to say, the effect of nutrient supplementation when no nutrient deficiency is noted (ie taking zinc when there is no zinc deficiency), and why you feel it is important to eat six times a day.


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## MasterChemist (Oct 1, 2010)

Built said:


> Low testosterone is SOMETIMES caused by nutrient deficiency. Mine was not. Neither was my husband's. In my case, I have chronically elevated levels of SHBG from oral contraceptive use in my thirties. This is known to permanently elevate SHBG, thus permanently lowering bioavailable test in women. In my husband's case, it was related to a congenital infertility problem. He had SOME test. Low normal, when he was younger. Then too low in his early forties.
> How - in the absence of insulin resistance - will a high-sugar diet raise the conversion of testosterone to estrogen? Are you thinking of the effect of insulin on aromatase, or some other mechanism? How high are we talking here, and what kind of sugar - glucose? Fructose?
> As an aside, I'm delighted to hear my current diet provides plenty of zinc and calcium. My health improved measurably since upping my consumption of animal proteins and fats.
> 
> ...


 
For zinc and minerals I go along the rule of thumb of 2 X RDA trying to get 1X RDA from diet then supplemnt rest.  Cooking and such removes alot of minerals.  
As far as effects as in performance effects and effects on hormones and such if the levels are normal.  That usually involved specific forms of nutrients... not just say calcium citrate or such.  

That sucks to here about your levels...  With women its had to get decent levels of test at all.  

And I am refering to free test.


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## MasterChemist (Oct 1, 2010)

Built said:


> Low testosterone is SOMETIMES caused by nutrient deficiency. Mine was not. Neither was my husband's. In my case, I have chronically elevated levels of SHBG from oral contraceptive use in my thirties.


 
High SHBG is sometimes linked to high DHT.  SHBG has a high affinity for DHT (higher than test and est) which is essential for females to control this hormone.  So if you supplemnt test in this situation (depending on the type) you might make it worse not better.  Anavar would be an obvious choice in this situation.  

I am not sure how test would help that situation it would seem like you would have to just keep taking more ane more.  And any test cypionate, enathate or other is open for this reduction.  

Did the contraceptive screw with your 5-AR enzymes??


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## MasterChemist (Oct 1, 2010)

Or was yours elevated by high estrogen or estrgen like compounds in BC.


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## Built (Oct 1, 2010)

MasterChemist said:


> High SHBG is sometimes linked to high DHT.  SHBG has a high affinity for DHT (higher than test and est) which is essential for females to control this hormone.


Please expand upon this. If SHBG has a high affinity for DHT, then less DHT would be free. For a woman, this is a good thing, isn't it?



MasterChemist said:


> So if you supplemnt test in this situation (depending on the type) you might make it worse not better.  Anavar would be an obvious choice in this situation.


Because oxandrolone is a DHT derivative, and thus not prone to 5-alpha reduction, is this what you mean? It's a moot point; oxandrolone is not used as a prescription drug in Canada. Testosterone is, and I have a prescription for it. 


MasterChemist said:


> I am not sure how test would help that situation it would seem like you would have to just keep taking more ane more.  And any test cypionate, enathate or other is open for this reduction.


I use transdermal testosterone base, no ester. Works a charm. 


MasterChemist said:


> Did the contraceptive screw with your 5-AR enzymes??


Not that I am aware of. I have not taken OC for well over ten years now. Currently, I am 47 years old. 



MasterChemist said:


> Or was yours elevated by high estrogen or estrgen like compounds in BC.


Ah - I suspect you may not be up on the research behind my earlier statement. I offer it here for your reference. 

From 2006:
Impact of oral contraceptives on sex hormone-bindi... [J Sex Med. 2006] - PubMed result
_"In women with sexual dysfunction, SHBG changes in "Discontinued-Users" did not decrease to values consistent with "Never-Users." Long-term sexual, metabolic, and mental health consequences might result as a consequence of chronic SHBG elevation. Does prolonged exposure to the synthetic estrogens of OCs induce gene imprinting and increased gene expression of SHBG in the liver in some women? Prospective research is needed."_​Prior to transdermal HRT, my estrogen was through the roof. Mid-folicular Oestradiol (pmol/L) normal range is 110-184. Mine was 1,248. It dropped to 100 after three months on transdermal testosterone and progesterone. Sadly, my testosterone was too high so I had to reduce my dose. 
SHBG (Sex hormone binding globulin) (nmol/L) range 20-100; mine was 140. It dropped to 48 after three months on transdermal testosterone and progesterone. I went off everything for a few months earlier this year and my testosterone dropped like a stone back down to post-menopausal levels, as it had been earlier. SHBG rose; up to 83, at least it was still in range. I'm back on my gear now. MUCH better!


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## ZECH (Oct 1, 2010)

Normal aging consists of a progressive decrease in free testosterone with a marked increase in cortisol. As men age past 40, cortisol begins to dominate, and the catabolic effects associated with growing older begin to dominate.
Testosterone production begins in the brain. When the hypothalamus detects a deficiency of testosterone in the blood, it secretes a hormone called gonadotrophin-releasing hormone to the pituitary gland. This prompts the pituitary to secrete luteinizing hormone (LH) which then prompts the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone. 

In some men, the testes lose their ability to produce testosterone, no matter how much LH is being produced. This type of testosterone deficiency is diagnosed when blood tests show high levels of LH and low levels of testosterone. In other words, the pituitary gland is telling the testes (by secreting LH ) to produce testosterone, but the testes have lost their functional ability, so the pituitary gland vainly continues to secrete LH because there is not enough testosterone in the blood to provide a feedback mechanism that would tell the pituitary to shut down. In other cases, the hypothalamus or pituitary gland fail to produce sufficient amounts of LH, thus preventing a healthy pair of testes from secreting testosterone. Blood testing can determine if sufficient amounts of LH are being secreted by the pituitary gland and help determine the proper therapeutic approach.
(Taken from my HRT article)

One further complication of excess estrogen is that it increases the body's production of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). SHBG binds free testosterone in the blood and makes it unavailable to cell receptor sites. Since this binds free test, it will lead to very little DHT conversion so I don't think that is a problem.


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## MasterChemist (Oct 4, 2010)

wow that study raises alot of qurestions huh. 
"Does prolonged exposure to the synthetic estrogens (SE) of OCs induce gene imprinting and increased gene expression of SHBG in the liver in some women?"

what effect do 'Evironmental estrogens" have??  My freind was a researcher in biology and he first brought this up to me years ago.  These are compounds, both naturally occuring and man made, that are increasing in our food supply.  

I did not belive this at first but look it up there is alot of reserach on it.

"Other sites that produce SHBG include the brain, uterus, testes, and placenta" WIKI.

Or could it be altering or incresing the amount form any of these other tissues (obviously not testes)

Also was 6 months being off OC long enough to make this determination.  

Take this further, what about the use at a younger age?

Take this even further what about the current use of PH among teenagers?  What is that doing to there sytem.  

When I was younger I was all for hormones and all that but now as I have aged I try everything other that that... reaserch... diet.. phytonutrients.

It seems in your case you need the test/prog to treat the SHBG, and I am deeply sorry to hear that.  IT seems when ever one drug is used then another needs to be used to counteract the effect.

but remember the high SHBG is a symtom not the reason...  possible reasons the reason is either your tissues that produce the SHBG have been artifically stimulated by those SE so long that they now pump them out on a regular basis..  OR maybe the OC stay in system longer than they expect?? 1 year??  Or may the SE permanatly altered your genes?  

Why would it not effect all women this way??  are ther other cominalities in those women??  

I will comment on other stuff you said as I can but this week is busy for me.  

But this is an interesting topic..


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## MasterChemist (Oct 4, 2010)

Built said:


> I'm interested to hear your thoughts on my other points - that is to say, the effect of nutrient supplementation when no nutrient deficiency is noted (ie taking zinc when there is no zinc deficiency), and why you feel it is important to eat six times a day.


 othin
As far as zinc excess zinc does nothing for increasinging  test above normal but low zinc will cause low test.  

the 6 times a day is more just a prefernace you can eat less frequently but I have found to go by the generl rule eat 12 for 12 hours then fast for 12 hours (IE eat form 6 am to 6 pm, fast from 6 ap to 6 am).  By fasting I mean only take in teas, specialty amino acids, and nutrients nothing realy for calories though.  
during my 12 hours of eating I just break that up in to 6 meals, breakfast Lunch Dinner PReworkout, post workout and one more snack.

I am 240 so my amount of protien needed is pretty high and I find it easier to break that up into more meals than less.  The protien I take in will be split between protien from complete sources (80%)
by combining protiens from vegitable/grain (20%) legumes veg are not complete but contain high levels of imporant aminos, aspartic acid (includng D) arginine, glycine, glutamine (for example) in higher ratios thatn the meats.  Where as the meats and dairy contain high levels of BCAA, creatine (some read meat and salmon), also the collagen you taks in with meats contains proline and glycine.. very important for soft tissue.

Fats come from the meats, nuts (peanuts are important), tahini or seasame, and I also use Hummus which will have either tahini or olive oil.

Probably more than you wanted to know


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## Built (Oct 5, 2010)

Not really. Nothing I didn't already know; good to know we're on the same page here. 

I tend to lean rather heavily on walnuts vs peanuts - my body just seems to like 'em. Sesame's good stuff; gotta watch it when it oxidizes though. Very tasty.


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## markoes (Jan 22, 2011)

it is banned for major list


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## Nightowl (Jan 22, 2011)

LAM said:


> yes it is legal but it is "illegal" to market it for weight loss in the US.


 

Thank you Lam,  for I didn't know that.


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## buddy1978 (Feb 26, 2011)

i need to buy some ephedra


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