# Eating fat to avoid catabolism



## mdhan (Sep 7, 2002)

We all  know that carbs(especially simple) is effective in avoiding catabolism of muscle tissue.  We are also aware of the fact that carbs(again, especially simple) are like dbl-edged swords in that they can also cause fat storage.  That's why some people's diet contains at least one meal that contains very low to no carbs. 

My question is, does fat actually inhibit muscle catabolism at all?  That is, do they act fast enough?  From what I understand, digestion of fat is rather slow, and the conversion of fat to ketone bodies(for muscles and the brain)is even slower.  

I ask this question partly because some people even avoid carbs postworkout.  *IF*  fat is indeed "not fast enough" in avoiding catabolism, wouldn't a carbless postworkout shake essentially be a waste?   

Any help would be appreciated.  Thanx.


----------



## Robboe (Sep 7, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by mdhan *_
> We all  know that carbs(especially simple) is effective in avoiding catabolism of muscle tissue.



Yeah, cause carbs 'switch on' insulin, which 'switches off' cortisol, a stress hormone that is catabolic.

What is more potent at anti-catabolism, is the weight training itself and calories. Which is why when you stop training you eventually lose muscle and when you drop calories too low you eventually lose muscle.



> We are also aware of the fact that carbs(again, especially simple) are like dbl-edged swords in that they can also cause fat storage.



If calories are in surplus, yes. If you're in a calorie deficit, the hormonal impact high GI carbs have doesn't have the same effect. They'll make you want to eat more, but if you resist, you can still drop weight using them, only you'll feel more uncomfortable with hunger pangs and sugar cravings.



> That's why some people's diet contains at least one meal that contains very low to no carbs.



Which makes very little difference if you're in calorie surplus.



> My question is, does fat actually inhibit muscle catabolism at all?  That is, do they act fast enough?



Fat has calories. Calories prevent catabolism. Albeit, it don't have the same hormonal impact as carbs (in fact, it stimulates release of neither insulin or glucagon, but does stimulate bile release in the stomch and fat lipases for digestion, which doesn't nothing for switching off catabolism).

So the answer is, carbs inhibit catabolism in the short term (ie once they stimualte insulin secretion) but fat doesn't. It's cause of this why carbs are recommended post train cause they switch the catabolism off quicker. Of course, protein synthesis is elevated for 36 hours after training, so carbs aren't essential post w/o, but they do help and do have a noticable effect on recovery and performance.

So, net breakdown/synthesis is decided overall by calories and not macronutrients.

Thus, eat more cals than you burn to add weight, burn more cals than you eat to lose weight. It really is that simple.



> From what I understand, digestion of fat is rather slow, and the conversion of fat to ketone bodies(for muscles and the brain)is even slower.
> 
> I ask this question partly because some people even avoid carbs postworkout.  *IF*  fat is indeed "not fast enough" in avoiding catabolism, wouldn't a carbless postworkout shake essentially be a waste?



No, cause like i said earlier, net synthesis/breakdown is decided by overall calories. Of course, carbs somewhere in the diet, whether they be in the form of carb loads or if you're doing isocaloric diet from every meal, are always beneficial since insulin is the most anabolic hormone in the body and drives up IGF-1 for further anabolism. The glycogen from stored carbs also aids lifting performance and strength gains. If you're getting stronger and eating more than you burn then you'll grow.

The reason people avoid carbs post w/o is for a few reasons:

1. they may want to stay in ketosis (if that's the type of diet they're currently practising).

2. They may be wanting to ensure no further cravings.

3. They may be wanting to take advantage of the negible hGH increase that comes from training.

It is possible to add muscle without using carbs post w/o. The bodybuilders NHE plan uses this method, with periodical carb loads, just like the cutting NHE plan. In fact, they're much the same diet, but guess the difference? The bodybuilders plan uses more fat and protein on the downcycle and more carbs on the upcycle.

What does that mean?

Answer: More calories. 

And so you can grow.


----------



## Robboe (Sep 7, 2002)

Hey, sorry if it comes off like i'm speaking to you like you're clueless. It wasn't intentional.

And sorry for dissecting your post, i realise it can be annoying, but it helped me answer your question better.


----------



## w8lifter (Sep 7, 2002)

It was a good post Chicken Baby


----------



## LrdViperScrpion (Sep 8, 2002)

Hey, TCD, I have quit marijuana, but occasionally I am tempted, and this post prompted me to ask a related question.  If marijuana causes a release of cortisol, and carbs, apparently, prevent cortisol release, if I were to smoke on the same day I do refeeds, would that prevent any of the side effects from marijuna?  

I also realized that if the refeed did prevent the side effects, it would also take care of the, ummm, what do you call them, MUNCHIES???


----------



## w8lifter (Sep 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by LrdViperScrpion *_
> Hey, TCD, I have quit marijuana, but occasionally I am tempted, and this post prompted me to ask a related question.  If marijuana causes a release of cortisol, and carbs, apparently, prevent cortisol release, if I were to smoke on the same day I do refeeds, would that prevent any of the side effects from marijuna?
> 
> I also realized that if the refeed did prevent the side effects, it would also take care of the, ummm, what do you call them, MUNCHIES???




Questions like this blow my fucking mind.


----------



## lina (Sep 9, 2002)

Great question and great explanations TCD!!


----------



## Robboe (Sep 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by LrdViperScrpion *_
> Hey, TCD, I have quit marijuana, but occasionally I am tempted, and this post prompted me to ask a related question.  If marijuana causes a release of cortisol, and carbs, apparently, prevent cortisol release, if I were to smoke on the same day I do refeeds, would that prevent any of the side effects from marijuna?
> 
> I also realized that if the refeed did prevent the side effects, it would also take care of the, ummm, what do you call them, MUNCHIES???




Who told you marijuana released cortisol?

I just did a quick pubmed scan and found nothing of any real relevance, except that monkies that smoke Mary J have slightly elevated urinary cortisol (which doesn't necessarily mean more in the blood catabolising muscle tissue).

By the way, marijuana retards testosterone so you can kiss any protein synthesis goodbye when using the stuff. It can also lower your Test levels in the long run too, making muscle building harder, and since test also seems to cause more leaneancy (sp?) for folks, potentially fat burning harder. This is, of course, with more regular and/or chronic use, but still.

On a different note, what pyschlogical issues do you have where you feel the need to use a drug to achieve a state of well being?

I'm not gonna turn this into a debate of ethics and what-not, since i myself am terrible with beer and any alcoholically-related cool, frosty, malty and all round sexual tasting beverages.

Alcohol aside, because i personally enjoy the taste of beer and the effects of alcohol can be fun and humerous, why feel the need to go out of your way for a *controlled* substance for a high?

Do you not achieve satisfactory feelings of well being, achievement, and in my case almost euphoria from lifting weights, progressing each week, feeling the pain, elevated heart rate, breaking of sweat, growing of muscle mass and eating blandly for the sake of discipline and health?

I, more than anyone, believe most in balancing personal enjoyment (which i get from both social outings and in the gym) with lifting without sacrificing more than one for the other (unless for special occasions or the like). But to require a substance to aid myself through life or through nights of enjoyment is beyond me. I can easily go out and enjoy myself without drinking. I've done it many a time before.

Like i said, i'm not after an ethical debate here, but my stance on illegal 'recreational' drugs is quite firm, since i have several (not literally) brain dead goofs i call (or used to call) "friends" who are now total no-hopers due to said substance. A few have also since moved onto harder substances, and i'll be quite amazed if they see their 25th and/or 30th birthdays without being in jail.

Or whether they see those borthdays at all...


----------



## Robboe (Sep 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> It can also lower your Test levels in the long run too, making muscle building harder, and since test also seems to cause more leaneancy (sp?) for folks, potentially fat burning harder. This is, of course, with more regular and/or chronic use, but still.




I should also note that alcohol has the same effects on testosterone. 

I also think (note: _think_) that alcohol's effects are a bit more dramatic, but i'm not totally sure about that, so don't quote me.

If we were gonna turn this into ethics, i'd be quite ironic to think who is worse?

Me for using a drug which although legal is potentially worse than an illegal drug used by someone else.

Makes you think eh?


----------



## Robboe (Sep 9, 2002)

But my stance is still the same: using lower class illegal drugs still gives someone more potential to move onto harder drugs and turn into my fuck-up friends. Please don't ever turn into them.

I (ab)use* alcohol because it's legal and in abundance. If it was illegal, chances are i wouldn't use it. 

* please note, i say 'abuse' because when i drink i tend to drink a shit-load. I don't mean 'abuse' in the chronic, alcoholic meaning of the word.

Just like i view BBers who 'abuse' steroids like the pros compared to someone who _uses_ steroids to aid their training, recovery time and muscle growth.


----------



## Robboe (Sep 9, 2002)

If you can use a drug and still manage to stay 'yourself' and keep your life under control, a bit like me and alcohol - i limit my intake (not only for the pyschological reasons, but also because too much alcohol gets in the way of my goal of achieving a more asthetic physique), then fair enough. May be using marijuana here and there ain't so bad. You only live once and it's good to get as many experiences under your belt as possible, but once it controls your life and becomes more of a 'perversion' than a bit of fun you got problems. Just like my associates.

The possibility that you'll spend more money on this each month or each week increases. You don't have enough money for other things, such as food bills, taxes, rent etc... and then you turn to crime. I'm not saying you're going to go to this extremity simply from smoking hash once every blue moon, but this is the path that every 'junkie' has been down to achieve their title of 'junkie'.


----------



## Robboe (Sep 9, 2002)

Sweet Christ, i never knew i was this passionate on this topic. On other forums i've usually kept quiet, but i never realised this was such a raw nerve with me.


----------



## Arnold (Sep 9, 2002)

I did a quick search and found this on the "alcohol & tesosterone":



> *Sex Hormones:*
> Alcohol metabolism alters the balance of reproductive hormones in men and women (23-28). In men, alcohol metabolism contributes to testicular injury and impairs testosterone synthesis and sperm production (24,29). In a study of normal healthy men who received 220 grams of alcohol daily for 4 weeks, testosterone levels declined after only 5 days and continued to fall throughout the study period (30,31). Prolonged testosterone deficiency may contribute to feminization in males, for example, breast enlargement (32). In addition, alcohol may interfere with normal sperm structure and movement by inhibiting the metabolism of vitamin A, which is essential for sperm development (30,33). In women, alcohol metabolism may contribute to increased production of a form of estrogen called estradiol (which contributes to increased bone density and reduced risk of coronary artery disease) and to decreased estradiol metabolism, resulting in elevated estradiol levels (28). One research review indicates that estradiol levels increased in premenopausal women who consumed slightly more than enough alcohol to reach the legal limit of alcohol (BAC of 0.10 percent) acutely (28). A study of the effect of alcohol on estradiol levels in postmenopausal women found that in women wearing estradiol skin patches, acute alcohol consumption significantly elevated estradiol levels over the short term (34).



here is tha page:
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa35.htm


----------



## Training God (Sep 9, 2002)

Avant Labs has a good read on alcohol and it's effect on the body and hypertrophy.


----------



## w8lifter (Sep 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Sweet Christ, i never knew i was this passionate on this topic. On other forums i've usually kept quiet, but i never realised this was such a raw nerve with me.




Chicken Baby...you are so funny


----------



## Robboe (Sep 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by PowermanDL *_
> Avant Labs has a good read on alcohol and it's effect on the body and hypertrophy.




I was just gonna say that until i saw your post.

It's a great article with an explantation of alcohol's effect on pretty much every metabolic process and any relevant hormones in the body.


----------



## LrdViperScrpion (Sep 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Who told you marijuana released cortisol?
> 
> On a different note, what pyschlogical issues do you have where you feel the need to use a drug to achieve a state of well being?
> ...



Actually, I believe someone on this forum posted that MJ causes cortisol release.  And, you're right, I forgot about its effect on testosterone.  I also, any time I have used it, was on the rare occasion, so I'm sure I barely suffered from the detrimental effects on testosterone, no more than, say, you on alcohol.  

If you want to go into ethics, it's going to be difficult to debate, since I don't personally believe laws fall under ethics, I only consider morality to fall under ethics, and as far as marijuana is concerned, I can find nothing morally wrong with it.  

As far as marijuana being a NEED, I hardly feel that way, I feel the same way you do about alcohol, I merely find it fun and humorous, as well as somewhat euphoric.  I have no need for it, but, if I can minimize the detrimental effects, I would not mind INDULGING in it on occasion.  I can easily enjoy myself without the use of substances, and do so every weekend, abstaining especially from alcohol, mainly because I never have any fun on it, it's full of calories, and I don't particularly enjoy the taste of it.  I also prefer marijuana, because quite honestly, I would have to go out of my way moreso to get beer than weed, someone ALWAYS has weed.  

Anyways, I was, for the most part, simply curious, I'm sure I will not act on such an impulse, but I have enjoyed marijuana before, and wouldn't mind enjoying it on occasion again.  I have never needed anything to enjoy myself, or make it through the day, I even stay away from prescription and OTC drugs, as I am usually quite adamant as far as health is concerned.  Certainly, if I was forced to choose between any drug, and health and exercise, I could never forsake my health and nutrition, it's the most important part of my life, and the thing I enjoy most each and every day.  I was merely curious, and I hope you will not assume that I, in any way, am dependent on anything other than, health, friends, and family to get me through the day.


----------



## LrdViperScrpion (Sep 9, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> If you can use a drug and still manage to stay 'yourself' and keep your life under control, a bit like me and alcohol - i limit my intake (not only for the pyschological reasons, but also because too much alcohol gets in the way of my goal of achieving a more asthetic physique), then fair enough. May be using marijuana here and there ain't so bad. You only live once and it's good to get as many experiences under your belt as possible, but once it controls your life and becomes more of a 'perversion' than a bit of fun you got problems.



I absolutely agree, the last time I used any "mind-altering substance" of any kind had to have been at least a year ago.  I enjoy trying some new things (though there are drugs I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole) but I find that abusing them only ruins the truly great experiences one CAN have with them, and quite frankly, I just feel horrible the maybe couple of times I have abused alcohol or something. 

To be perfectly honest, the only times I do try mind-altering substances are when I simply want to view the world in a different way, and to connect differently to the people and world around me.  

An example of this:  (and this is THE ABSOLUTE honest truth) About a year or two ago, I tried Robitussin, the cough syrup several times because I read about it's powerful dissociative and hallucinogenic effects.  I thoroughly read the dosing techniques, and about which brand to take, etc. before trying it.  But, the second time I believe, I ever did it, I FELT God.  Not necessarily the God of any religion, but a higher being, and it wasn't the drug, it was THE most certain thing I have ever felt in my life, that there was a benevolent higher being.  I'm completely serious.


----------



## Robboe (Sep 10, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by LrdViperScrpion *_
> 
> If you want to go into ethics,




I actually stated i _didn't_ want an ethical debate.

Fair enough response though.


----------



## LrdViperScrpion (Sep 10, 2002)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> I actually stated i _didn't_ want an ethical debate.



Sorry, I was merely making a point about ethics.



> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> 
> Fair enough response though.



Thank you.


----------



## bigss75 (Sep 11, 2002)

LVS I have found another good reason not to smoke the mean green BITCH TITS I know you dont want that. The choice is yours though I know many people where I am at smoke weed. I am sure 2/3 of my professors do


----------

