# What brand of Casein protein?



## Karlito (Mar 12, 2003)

Most of my shakes are whey and water with Flax Seed oil, but I was told recently that for my 8:30 pm shake I should use Casein protein as it's slower to digest.....

What brands do people recommend?  Please note I'd like to find it in a jug, NOT in packs, as I find the latter usually rip you off and cost too much....


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## Arnold (Mar 12, 2003)

well, you could just use milk.


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## Karlito (Mar 12, 2003)

Well I have been mixing Whey with Skim milk but people tell me that's not a good idea at night.....One person claims just Whey in Water is fine, another claims Casein protein is the best choice for a late night protein shake?  (I know I could eat cottage cheese, but I'm looking for a powder here)


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## Arnold (Mar 12, 2003)

I have been meaning to buy an additional protein powder for my late night shake as well, but I have not yet, so I just mix a scoop of whey powder with 2% milk and some flax.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 12, 2003)

Buy it from proteincustomizer.com.

He sells it wholesale, by the pounds.  Can add other proteins for a custom blend if you like.  I just got some 50% micellar protein, 25% milk, 25% egg for nighttime.


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## gopro (Mar 12, 2003)

You can do what TP said or if you want "name brand" proteins with good casein in it:

-PRO PEPTIDE
-PRO FUSION
-ISOMATRIX
-GROW
-MICELLEAN

All are protein blends with micellar casein


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## kuso (Mar 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> You can do what TP said or if you want "name brand" proteins with good casein in it:
> 
> -PRO PEPTIDE
> ...



Good point...my thinking is though, why pay for a brand name ( particularly as we know they constantly try to rip us off somehow ) and for the distribution costs, advertising  etc?? 

With someone like proteincustomizer.com you cut all those costs and get what you pay for.


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## ZECH (Mar 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> Good point...my thinking is though, why pay for a brand name ( particularly as we know they constantly try to rip us off somehow ) and for the distribution costs, advertising  etc??
> 
> With someone like proteincustomizer.com you cut all those costs and get what you pay for.


Yeah if their label claims are up to par............At one point, protein factory was not.


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## kuso (Mar 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Yeah if their label claims are up to par............At one point, protein factory was not.



Thats true, though rarely are those of the reputable companies too!

So once again, it comes down to price.


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## ZECH (Mar 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> Thats true, though rarely are those of the reputable companies too!
> 
> So once again, it comes down to price.


I agree!


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## MeanCuts (Mar 12, 2003)

Yeah like Prince said milk has casein


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## kuso (Mar 12, 2003)

Has sugar too.


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## MeanCuts (Mar 12, 2003)

He didn't say sugar was a problem besides if you go non-fat there isn't that much sugar


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## kuso (Mar 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> He didn't say sugar was a problem besides if you go non-fat there isn't that much sugar




If its his final shake for the night one would assume he doesn`t want to be taking in sugar.

And non-fat milk still contains sugar.


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## MeanCuts (Mar 12, 2003)

Well now that i looked it up all milk has the same amount of carbs according to the labels and that's 13 carbs per cup(9g of protein per cup for non-fat) so i guess the carbs might add up if you drank a lot.


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## Arnold (Mar 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> If its his final shake for the night one would assume he doesn`t want to be taking in sugar.



why is that?


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## kuso (Mar 12, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> why is that?




As I said, an assumption. If he is worried about the skim milk as it is ( his second post ) then I assume he is worried of cals etc...hense I guess he`s cutting.


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## Arnold (Mar 12, 2003)

*Paul Delia's Q & A*

Q: Why do so many bodybuilders avoid milk?  

A:  Because somehow they have been mislead into thinking milk is bad for them. Milk is an incredible source of protein, high in calcium, maganesium, zinc and loaded with important B vitamins. Milk makes protein shakes creamier and taste better. I firmly believe that milk should be in every bodybuilder???s stable.

Milk should not be avoided; however, you should limit your milk intake to fat free - skim milk. This way you will get the goodness milk provides without the fat.

8 ounces of skim milk contains 88 calories, 9 grams of protein, and 13 carbohydrates. No fat. Skim milk has a low glycemic index of 32.

8 ounces of whole milk contains about 10 grams of fat. This can add up quickly and is why I recommend avoiding it. However, those with very fast metabolisms that require higher caloric intakes can take advantage of the extra calories whole milk provides.

You can split the difference and use 2% milk, which contains approximately 5 grams of fat per 8 ounces. 1% contains 3 grams of fat per 8 ounces.


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## kuso (Mar 12, 2003)

So, what caused the turn around?? 

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14893&highlight=milk



> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> just keep in mind the high sugar content in milk.




http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14729&highlight=milk



> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> you might want to drop some or all of that milk if you're trying to get leaner.



And of course this entire thread

Anyway, even though I believe its totals in vs out that count, I still wouldn`t want 13carbs in my final meal before bed.

Here`s a couple of thoughts on it from mercola too.


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> As I said, an assumption. If he is worried about the skim milk as it is ( his second post ) then I assume he is worried of cals etc...hense I guess he`s cutting.



He's only worried because people are telling to worry and in my opinion if he ain't cutting it won't hurt him a bit and will probably help more than just adding casein powder.


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## kuso (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> He's only worried because people are telling to worry and in my opinion if he ain't cutting it won't hurt him a bit and will probably help more than just adding casein powder.



And that is an assumption on your part


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

Karlito why did you post this question in two different forums?


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> And that is an assumption on your part



Right didn't you get the "in my opinion part"?


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## kuso (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> Right didn't you get the "in my opinion part"?



Didn`t you get the wink?


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

Nope sorry still early for me


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## kuso (Mar 13, 2003)

lol...getting too late for me.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 13, 2003)

I have to agree with Kuso 100%.

1)  If you are not cutting and don't have problems with storing too much fat, milk is not bad.

2)  When trying to cut, unless you have a very speedy metabolism, milk IS NOT the most efficient source of any nutriet, macro or micro.  By "efficient" I mean amount of the nutrient in versus amount of total calories (as Kuso said, total in versus total out is the most critical element in diet).

3)  Some people have trouble digesting milk and find that elimination of it can quickly lead to lipolysis (ask Butterfly for an anecdotal opinion).

4)  Paul Delia's comments are either completely out of context or assinine, or both.  His point about drinking skim versus whole is a prime example of "fat fear" and sugar ignorance.  At bedtime, you are far better consuming fat with your protein (to slow nightime absorption)  than you are with sugar.

5)  The only difference between skim and whole milk (on a macro level) is fat.  Sugar is the same.


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

Assuming your not on a low carb diet.Why would it be better to comsume fat over carbs at night while cutting?


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## Twin Peak (Mar 13, 2003)

Please read this carefully:



> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> I have to agree with Kuso 100%.
> 
> 1)  If you are not cutting and don't have problems with storing too much fat, milk is not bad.
> ...


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## gopro (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Yeah if their label claims are up to par............At one point, protein factory was not.



EXACTLY!


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## Karlito (Mar 13, 2003)

Well, I have about another 10-15 pounds of fat to lose, most of it around the middle, and I'd read that the sugar in milk at night isn't helping...

I'm not "cutting" yet per say, but I am trying to lose that fat to expose the abs as I slowly build mass at the same time....


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## kuso (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> EXACTLY!



And my reply to dg goes here too!


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## kuso (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Karlito *_
> Well, I have about another 10-15 pounds of fat to lose, most of it around the middle, and I'd read that the sugar in milk at night isn't helping...
> 
> I'm not "cutting" yet per say, but I am trying to lose that fat to expose the abs as I slowly build mass at the same time....




Haha.....to those that didn`t like MY assumption..........


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## Twin Peak (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Karlito *_
> Well, I have about another 10-15 pounds of fat to lose, most of it around the middle, and I'd read that the sugar in milk at night isn't helping...
> 
> I'm not "cutting" yet per say, but I am trying to lose that fat to expose the abs as I slowly build mass at the same time....



This is not very efficient, unless one is grossly overfat or brand new to resistance training.  Prioritzation, is the key.


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

He didnt say he's cutting he said he's building muscle while losing fat which is a foreign concept to me anyway


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

Anyways I think your better off with a couple of chicken breasts instead


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## Twin Peak (Mar 13, 2003)

And some fat, assuming you are not cutting.  (please don't ask me why again....)


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> And some fat, assuming you are not cutting.  (please don't ask me why again....)



If i'm bulking i'm eating a meal not just some fat but some carbs also


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## Twin Peak (Mar 13, 2003)

Before bedtime?  That IS what we have been talking about no?


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## Arnold (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> So, what caused the turn around??
> 
> http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14893&highlight=milk
> ...




First of all if I did change my opinion I have every right to do so. I do not need you dredging up all of my past advice. If you were to go searching for all of my past training advice you would also see that I have changed many of my theories there as well. So fucking what! 

Second I did not change my opinion, if you're CUTTING then limiting or even dropping milk consumption is a good idea, but it still depends on the type of diet you're following. 

  kuso


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## Karlito (Mar 13, 2003)

See...now here comes the traditional confusion as 100 people try to explain what worked best for them....contradicting each other, tripping over eachother....no wonder people are so scared off from getting in shape.

From all of my reading, if I want to gain lean muscle mass and lose fat it's entirely possible with the right workout and the right diet without adhering to bulking and cutting phases just yet.

My goal right now is to tack on some soild mass, and get semi-cut at the same time.

No matter what questions people ask here, it seems like they can't get a single straight answer to their particular and specific question without their ENTIRE philosophy getting dissected, and then forty (contradicting at that) opinions being fired at them.

Not to sound like a cock (too late?  ), I really do appreciate the info, but I asked about the best types of Casein protein.


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## kuso (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> First of all if I did change my opinion I have every right to do so. I do not need you dredging up all of my past advice. If you were to go searching for all of my past training advice you would also see that I have changed many of my theories there as well. So fucking what!



You do have the right to change you opinion, which is what I asked you...."what caused the turn around?" I thought you were merely shit stirring 

AND I happened to remember you made that somewhat anti milk thread quite recently which is all I went "looking" for.....to see whether you were pro, or anti milk at the time, and to confirm to myself if it was shit stiring or not.




> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Second I did not change my opinion, if you're CUTTING then limiting or even dropping milk consumption is a good idea, but it still depends on the type of diet you're following.
> 
> kuso



Then I guess after all, we are in agreement.......other than the finger.


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## Arnold (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kuso *_
> You do have the right to change you opinion, which is what I asked you...."what caused the turn around?" I thought you were merely shit stirring



I have ALWAYS drank milk, never stopped. So, there was no real turn around. If I were to start cutting I would cut down, and eventually cut out milk.



> AND I happened to remember you made that somewhat anti milk thread quite recently which is all I went "looking" for.....to see whether you were pro, or anti milk at the time, and to confirm to myself if it was shit stiring or not.



The anti-milk thread was just a "stir-shit" thread like a couple others I started, I think I started one about eating meat too, and I still eat meat never stopped.


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Before bedtime?  That IS what we have been talking about no?



Yes before bedtime(while bulking) i'll eat a small meal that's got carbs,fat and high protein.While cutting I wouldn't advise eating fat before bed regardless if it slows down the already slow digesting protein.


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## kuso (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> While cutting I wouldn't advise eating fat before bed regardless if it slows down the already slow digesting protein.



And why is that? And what is it you`d recommend?


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

I'd recommend you eat a lean meat before bed(while cutting).Fat is stored energy.If you eat fat before bed where you need less energy seems to reason that most of the fat would be stored because it's not needed.


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## Arnold (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> Yes before bedtime(while bulking) i'll eat a small meal that's got carbs,fat and high protein.While cutting I wouldn't advise eating fat before bed regardless if it slows down the already slow digesting protein.




Eating fat before bedtime is actually ideal, even if cutting (IMO). Remember, after that last meal you will be fasting for 8 hours (give or take a couple), so you want to have protein in your system and you want to slow down the digestion with some fat.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Karlito *_
> Not to sound like a cock (too late?  ), I really do appreciate the info, but I asked about the best types of Casein protein.



Well, this was answered way back when.  And since this is a "discussion" board, there were digressions.

And why is it that you expect everyone to have the same opinion?  There are more than one ways to skin a cat.  Some ways are better than others.  If you have the ability to logically reason, and you don't want to be a robot, then you should listen to the advice given, and based on its soundness (in your opinion, derived by the individuals statements, logical reasoning, explanation, and where appropriate, citation to references) then you can evaluate and apply what makes the most sense.

If you want a single "best" answer, you won't find it.  If you want a "single" answer then these boards are not the place for you.  by a book, by a single author, and follow it to the tee.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Eating fat before bedtime is actually ideal, even if cutting (IMO). Remember, after that last meal you will be fasting for 8 hours (give or take a couple), so you want to have protein in your system and you want to slow down the digestion with some fat.



So what the fuck is he talking about?  Apparently, we (Kuso, Prince, myself) all agree on everything stated herein, just have been discussing different contexts.


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Eating fat before bedtime is actually ideal, even if cutting (IMO). Remember, after that last meal you will be fasting for 8 hours (give or take a couple), so you want to have protein in your system and you want to slow down the digestion with some fat.



Very true you'll be fasting but your food requirements are not the same when you sleep besides when you fast you use your storage for fuel(fat) and this will lead to fat loss which is good for cutting


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## Arnold (Mar 13, 2003)

maybe he means the best brand if he were to go buy a powdered Casein?


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

Besides it works for me and that's what i'm saying


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## Arnold (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> Very true you'll be fasting but your food requirements are not the same when you sleep besides when you fast you use your storage for fuel(fat) and this will lead to fat loss which is good for cutting



so, in your opinion, what are your "food requirements" while sleeping? 

it's okay to eat protein before bed, but not fat? why?


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

Prince:Why not use the fat you already have and lose weight?


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## Twin Peak (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> Very true you'll be fasting but your food requirements are not the same when you sleep besides when you fast you use your storage for fuel(fat) and this will lead to fat loss which is good for cutting



Its unfortunate that you speak of what you do not understand.  

I particularly love the "seems to me" comments.  Actually, when your body needs energy and is in a fasted state, it becomes catabolic.  Meaning it decides that you have too much muscle as muscle requires energy (yes even when you fast asleep) and so it begins to break it down.  Moreover, rather than dip into it energy stores (i.e. the fat you have on you) it will take the precious protein you just ate and break it down and (through a process known as gluconeogenisis) will turn that into energy (glucose) and utilize that, thus depriving your muscles from the aminos you thought you were giving it.

Unless of course your goal when cutting is to lose bodyweight (as opposed to bodyfat)?  Then your idea is excellent!  Personally, when cutting, I just like to lose the fat, and retain my hard earned muscle.



> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_Hey dude you eat all the fat you want before bed and you can claim this leads to weight loss and that's great if people believe you



When you better understand human physiology, perhaps then we can have a somewhat intelligent discussion.


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## Arnold (Mar 13, 2003)

well, said TP.

I am still waiting for him to answer my questions.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> Prince:Why not use the fat you already have and lose weight?



I believe I just answered that.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> well, said TP.
> 
> I am still waiting for him to answer my questions.



I am not enjoying this constant agreeing with you Prince.


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

If you eat carbs and fat that day you body is not going to go into gluconeogenisis which is an adaption of a real fast not sleeping.


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

Prince your food requirements while sleeping are very minimal since you are expending far less energy your body perpares for sleep through the day.Why protein before bed?I eat protein at all times of the day


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## Karlito (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> And why is it that you expect everyone to have the same opinion?  There are more than one ways to skin a cat.  Some ways are better than others.  If you have the ability to logically reason, and you don't want to be a robot, then you should listen to the advice given, and based on its soundness (in your opinion, derived by the individuals statements, logical reasoning, explanation, and where appropriate, citation to references) then you can evaluate and apply what makes the most sense.
> 
> If you want a single "best" answer, you won't find it.  If you want a "single" answer then these boards are not the place for you.  by a book, by a single author, and follow it to the tee.



Of course.  I look for the most recurring themes in answers and generally are forced to guess which suggestions have the most truth to them.  I also tend to follow the advice based on no nonsense answers and pictures, provided particularly by users like GoPro, who is clearly doing something right.

I just get irritated by the constant back and forth, and total and utter contradiction on roughly 70% of diet information.  For someone trying their best to design the best diet, it's almost MORE confusing to ask for help here....

I am in fact going by a book known as the Body sculpting Bible for men.  While I like the workout routine, the diet suggests taking milk with every Whey shake, even when trying to lose weight.  Here I'm told that these shakes should be taken with water.  That seems to be a commonly held belief so I changed that except for the last one of the day.....

Looking for further clarity GoPRo suggests a Casein protein for the last shake of the day, so that's where I stand at the moment....

I'm able to use logic to determine the best diet possible, but I think many people are quite frankly going to be totally discouraged and more confused than when they entered; accosted by the 100 different conflicting answers they'll get to any one question.


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## Arnold (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> Prince your food requirements while sleeping are very minimal since you are expending far less energy your body perpares for sleep through the day.Why protein before bed?I eat protein at all times of the day



Here is Paul Delia's answer to the question of eating before bed:

_I have not seen and convincing research that shows consuming meals late at night before sleep has any extra effect on increasing fat stores. People think that just because they will be inactive for an eight hour period that whatever they eat prior to this will increase their chances of getting fat. This is just not so. You will not put on body fat by the timing of one meal. And the sleep period is a very important time for recuperation. Recuperation requires adequate nutrition to optimize the process. In fact, this time could be one of the most important times to eat._

but I am sure your knowledge exceeds his, right?


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## gopro (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Here is Paul Delia's answer to the question of eating before bed:
> 
> _I have not seen and convincing research that shows consuming meals late at night before sleep has any extra effect on increasing fat stores. People think that just because they will be inactive for an eight hour period that whatever they eat prior to this will increase their chances of getting fat. This is just not so. You will not put on body fat by the timing of one meal. And the sleep period is a very important time for recuperation. Recuperation requires adequate nutrition to optimize the process. In fact, this time could be one of the most important times to eat._
> ...



Let me jump in here to say that Paul is 100% correct. During sleep we go into a repair and recuperation process wherein protein is necessary. Without some protein we will enter a catabolic state within a few hours. The protein should be slow acting, like casein, to provide a "trickle feed" effect of the amino acids. Fats will help slow the digestion of protein at this time and will rarely be stored unless you take in too much or the wrong kinds...EFAs are best. We don't generally want carbs at this time b/c we don't want an insulin surge before bed, especially if cutting.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Let me jump in here to say that Paul is 100% correct. During sleep we go into a repair and recuperation process wherein protein is necessary. Without some protein we will enter a catabolic state within a few hours. The protein should be slow acting, like casein, to provide a "trickle feed" effect of the amino acids. Fats will help slow the digestion of protein at this time *and will rarely be stored unless you take in too much or the wrong kinds*...EFAs are best. We don't generally want carbs at this time b/c we don't want an insulin surge before bed, especially if cutting.



GoPro, you are wrong, meancuts said so.  (BTW GP, if you haven't read all the posts, as you often maintain is the case, this is not a dig, you in fact restated what Kuso, and Prince, and I have been saying).

BTW, I bolded that portion because that is important and something we have yet to elaborate on.


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

Well i could find plenty of different people on and off the net who would argue either way 
http://www.askmen.com/sports/bodybuilding/30_fitness_tip.html
http://www.ivillage.com/diet/features/guests/pages/0,,218936_561541-4,00.html
I just agree that eating fat before sleep doesn't help with fat loss and the only catabolic state it leads to is fat and carb reduction


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> GoPro, you are wrong, meancuts said so.  (BTW GP, if you haven't read all the posts, as you often maintain is the case, this is not a dig, you in fact restated what Kuso, and Prince, and I have been saying).
> 
> BTW, I bolded that portion because that is important and something we have yet to elaborate on.



First thing I said it's my opinion. You on the other hand act like your opinion is a fact and not just an opinion which it definitly is.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> First thing I said it's my opinion. You on the other hand act like your opinion is a fact and not just an opinion which it definitly is.



Ironically, you HAVE made statements of fact.  That is what I have addressed and have been addressing.  Their is significant amounts of studies backing all of what we have been stating regarding lipolysis versus lipogenisis during sleep, and how carbs and fat, as well as protein effect this balance.

So, you are wrong when you say I am stating my "opinion."  My opinion is never fact; only here, I am not stating my opinion.  

Why don't you spend some time on PubMed doing some research on these issues before espousing your "opinion."

Again, and for clarity, when your "opinion" holds contrary to fact, your opinion ceases to be relevant.


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## Karlito (Mar 13, 2003)

Thanks for the Casein suggestions Gopro.....

I ordered 2 lb. jugs of both MICELLEAN and ProPeptide...

The propeptide made some claims about micro-organisms?  WTH is that?  Like Acidophilous?

Since I eat around 5:30, I plan on taking these at 8:30 or so with water.....(I go to bed around midnight)....too early?  Does it really matter?


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## Twin Peak (Mar 13, 2003)

You want to take it before bed.  On the otherhand from 5:30-12 is a long time, I'd suggest a snack or scoop of protein in between.


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## Arnold (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> Well i could find plenty of different people on and off the net who would argue either way
> http://www.askmen.com/sports/bodybuilding/30_fitness_tip.html
> http://www.ivillage.com/diet/features/guests/pages/0,,218936_561541-4,00.html
> I just agree that eating fat before sleep doesn't help with fat loss and the only catabolic state it leads to is fat and carb reduction



great sources, next you'll be giving us links to Muscle & Fitness for our training routines!


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## Arnold (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Let me jump in here to say that Paul is 100% correct. During sleep we go into a repair and recuperation process wherein protein is necessary. Without some protein we will enter a catabolic state within a few hours. The protein should be slow acting, like casein, to provide a "trickle feed" effect of the amino acids. Fats will help slow the digestion of protein at this time and will rarely be stored unless you take in too much or the wrong kinds...EFAs are best. We don't generally want carbs at this time b/c we don't want an insulin surge before bed, especially if cutting.



Yes, that is what we have all been saying here. Although I do not think a little saturated fat at bedtime will hurt.


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## Britney (Mar 13, 2003)

excerpt from link:
Believe it or not, eating late at night can also inhibit your calorie-burning potential the next day. *Say, for instance, that you treat yourself to a big bowl of cereal topped with sliced bananas at 10 P.M. one night and are fast asleep by eleven. When your alarm goes off the next morning at seven, the last thing on your mind is going to be breakfast -- you're still full from the cereal and bananas you ate the night before.* Chances are, you're going to skip breakfast and lose all the metabolism-boosting benefits you'd get from eating a morning meal. 

During sleep, digestion all but shuts down so that the food you've consumed has extended contact time with your digestive tract. That may increase your risk of various ailments and disease, including certain cancers. *Consider, too, that fat and protein take longer than carbohydrate to digest so if you snack on a bowl of ice cream or a steak sandwich before bed, the contact time may be even longer. *Eating late can also just make you feel plain lousy.


If you are eatting those things it doesnt matter what time of day you eat, you will GAIN fat no matter what. What kind of diet is that?


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## kuso (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Britney *_
> 
> 
> If you are eatting those things it doesnt matter what time of day you eat, you will GAIN fat no matter what. What kind of diet is that?




  Great source of info


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## Arnold (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Britney *_
> excerpt from link:
> Believe it or not, eating late at night can also inhibit your calorie-burning potential the next day. *Say, for instance, that you treat yourself to a big bowl of cereal topped with sliced bananas at 10 P.M. one night and are fast asleep by eleven. When your alarm goes off the next morning at seven, the last thing on your mind is going to be breakfast -- you're still full from the cereal and bananas you ate the night before.* Chances are, you're going to skip breakfast and lose all the metabolism-boosting benefits you'd get from eating a morning meal.
> 
> ...



I do not know where you got that info, and to be honest I don't think I want to know, but that is such mis-information I feel ashamed for the misguided fool that wrote it.

I eat at night (11pm) right before I go to sleep, and guess what? I am fricking starving when I wake up the next morning! Digestion does slow down, that is true, but it certainly does not stop, that is false.

Honestly, I will not even bother replying to each sentence in that "quote" because it's so utterly rediculous.


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## Britney (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> Well i could find plenty of different people on and off the net who would argue either way
> http://www.askmen.com/sports/bodybuilding/30_fitness_tip.html
> http://www.ivillage.com/diet/features/guests/pages/0,,218936_561541-4,00.html
> I just agree that eating fat before sleep doesn't help with fat loss and the only catabolic state it leads to is fat and carb reduction



Prince, I got it from the article in the second link.......and the terrible info/advice was the point I ws trying to make. Which was obviously seen


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## kuso (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I do not know where you got that info, and to be honest I don't think I want to know, but that is such mis-information I feel ashamed for the misguided fool that wrote it.
> 
> Honestly, I will not even bother replying to each sentence in that "quote" because it's so utterly rediculous.



Prince...I believe that was taken from meancuts link.


(damned  beaten to the punchline  )


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## Arnold (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Britney *_
> Prince, I got it from the article in the second link.......and the terrible info/advice was the point I ws trying to make. Which was obviously seen



oh okay!

I never even clicked on them I just saw the urls askmen.com and ivillage.com and assumed it was garbage, I guess my assumption was correct! 

At least we know what MeanCut's problem is, he's getting his diet & nutrition info from those places!


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## Twin Peak (Mar 13, 2003)

What a joke.

Now we know where meangets his "opinions" from.


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## MeanCuts (Mar 13, 2003)

No you don't know cause I just grabbed those sites off a quick search and havn't even read themMy ideas or "opinions" are not new by a long shot.Even if your right that's still crazy advice for a cutting cycle in my OPINION


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## Arnold (Mar 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by MeanCuts *_
> No you don't know cause I just grabbed those sites off a quick search and havn't even read them



so, you're posting links to articles which are supposed to help support your stance/opinion on this topic and you did not even read the article that you used as your reference? 




> My ideas or "opinions" are not new by a long shot. Even if your right that's still crazy advice for a cutting cycle in my OPINION



that is exactly your problem! you're subscribing to outdated beliefs based on old and outdated information.

You obviously failed to read anything we said because we have all agreed (me, twin peak, kuso & gopro) that we would cut out the milk if cutting were our goal.

As far as eating protein, fat and even carbs before bedtime, this can be done if you're cutting as well. You want to pay attention to the types of carbs, lactose would not be a good choice for cutting.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> You obviously failed to read anything we said because we have all agreed (me, twin peak, kuso & gopro) that we would cut out the milk if cutting were our goal.



And he has NO idea how remarkable that is!  

Prince, let the poor fool wallow in his ignorance and bask in the glory that "others have said so."

I am done here.  The point is clear to those who choose to understand.


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## MeanCuts (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> And he has NO idea how remarkable that is!
> 
> Prince, let the poor fool wallow in his ignorance and bask in the glory that "others have said so."
> ...



Your "opinion" is clear,now your hard headed ass can be happy


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## MeanCuts (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> As far as eating protein, fat and even carbs before bedtime, this can be done if you're cutting as well. You want to pay attention to the types of carbs, lactose would not be a good choice for cutting.


 
Well I just think it's a good,safe and easy time to lose weight.After my last cutting cycle where I didn't eat before bed at all but did as soon as I woke I got my great results.As far as losing any significant amount muscle in my sleep it's hard to believe since it was such a good cycle.


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## gopro (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> GoPro, you are wrong, meancuts said so.  (BTW GP, if you haven't read all the posts, as you often maintain is the case, this is not a dig, you in fact restated what Kuso, and Prince, and I have been saying).
> 
> BTW, I bolded that portion because that is important and something we have yet to elaborate on.



Sorry to rewrite stuff that was said. You are right...I only read a couple of posts and then had to throw my 2 cents in. Either way, it just backed up your positions.


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## gopro (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Karlito *_
> Thanks for the Casein suggestions Gopro.....
> 
> I ordered 2 lb. jugs of both MICELLEAN and ProPeptide...
> ...



Excellent choices. I use both of these with wonderful results. The microorganisms are pre and pro biotics which are "friendly bacteria," which will aid gut health and protein digestion.

Take a serving within 30 minutes of sleep. This is how to best keep from losing muscle tissue.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Sorry to rewrite stuff that was said. You are right...I only read a couple of posts and then had to throw my 2 cents in. Either way, it just backed up your positions.



Not a problem.  

BTW, if Carlito is still reading this, this "debate" if you can call it that is a prime example of how you have certain facts and cerain opinions in front of you, and you can choose you your approach from it.


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## gopro (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Yes, that is what we have all been saying here. Although I do not think a little saturated fat at bedtime will hurt.



I agree, it won't hurt. However, EFAs can actually increase the fat loss process by increasing insulin sensitivity. Also, EFAs perform several functions in the body that aid the repair process. So basically, while sat fats are ok, they are not optimal.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> I agree, it won't hurt. However, EFAs can actually increase the fat loss process by increasing insulin sensitivity. Also, EFAs perform several functions in the body that aid the repair process. So basically, while sat fats are ok, they are not optimal.



Is that true for all EFAs?  I know it is for Omega-3s (fish oil).  Fish oil has also been show to increase ones sensitivity to leptin.


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## Karlito (Mar 14, 2003)

GoPro...

I generally have dinner at 5:30, a Whey protein shake at 9:00....Should I now tack on this new Casein shake before bed (around 12:00) or should I replace it they Whey shake and just move the Whey shake up a bit (say like 10:00?)


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## gopro (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Karlito *_
> GoPro...
> 
> I generally have dinner at 5:30, a Whey protein shake at 9:00....Should I now tack on this new Casein shake before bed (around 12:00) or should I replace it they Whey shake and just move the Whey shake up a bit (say like 10:00?)



You really need to not go more than 3 hours without feeding yourself for optimal gains in muscle. So, you need a shake at around 830 and one at 1130. I would make both of those casein shakes!


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## gopro (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Is that true for all EFAs?  I know it is for Omega-3s (fish oil).  Fish oil has also been show to increase ones sensitivity to leptin.



Omega 3s from flax or fish are best in this regard, but all EFAs have positive effects.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

I can't be arsed to read this thread but for casein, Propeptide is decent (although vanilla is really horrible and taste like off-milk) as a mix of casein and whey, and Met-RX Pro-Plus is the same blend, only tasting better but not having the pro-biotics included.

Some time last year i was looking everywhere for an exclusive casein protein, but the best i could find was protein factory and the newer protein customizer. Only problem is shipping tubs of protein from the States would cost me too must, so the two mentioned above have to do.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

Rob, I hear you on the shipping issue.  I don't know if customizer can work something out for you, but if possible, I am sure he will.  I met him at the Arnold (was at the booth most of the time) -- good people.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

I'm sure he would, but i don't like putting people out their way too much, and if i asked for, say, 10lbs of casein to be shipped to me (to avoid regular shipping, i'd get a bulk amount), then the shipping cost would be near extortionate.

Any deal worked out would most likely leave him out of pocket. I'd feel a bit unfair to do that to him.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> I'm sure he would, but i don't like putting people out their way too much, and if i asked for, say, 10lbs of casein to be shipped to me (to avoid regular shipping, i'd get a bulk amount), then the shipping cost would be near extortionate.
> 
> Any deal worked out would most likely leave him out of pocket. I'd feel a bit unfair to do that to him.



I hear ya.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

I wouldn't mind ripping you off though, by allowing you to pay the shipping charges on all your free goodies you're gonna send me though.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

Muwhahaha...


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

I told you to get your ass to the states, and I'd be happy to share.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

BTW, Rob, you really should read this thread.  Its rather amusing.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

I'm too damn lazy man.

Is it really worth my while?


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

For entertainment value only.


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## Arnold (Mar 14, 2003)

yeah, and also read the articles that MeanCuts posted links to, that will really get you laughing!


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

Come on Prince, that's solid stuff.  I am now going to change around my entire lifting and nutritional structures as a result.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

Right, i'll do my closest Johnny5 impression and scan this bad boy in 30 seconds.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

Well, i just read it all.

And all i will say is...Jesus, britney's avatar is ace.


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

Agreed!


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## Britney (Mar 14, 2003)

ACE?! 

Cool, thanks


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

True though.


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## Karlito (Mar 14, 2003)

Ok...the debate over meancuts comments aside,....the bottom line from this thread is:

Milk with your protein shakes generally isn't a good idea unless you're uber skinny and trying to pack on pounds no matter what.

I should have my dinner at 5:30, drink a Casein protein shake at 8:30, and another at 11:30 before bed, and this won't reduce my chances of eliminating this extra 10-15 pounds of fat I have left around my middle....correct?  It will in essence give my body proper protein fuel for rebuilding muscles while I sleep.....

Am I following correctly?


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Karlito *_
> Ok...the debate over meancuts comments aside,....the bottom line from this thread is:
> 
> Milk with your protein shakes generally isn't a good idea unless you're uber skinny and trying to pack on pounds no matter what.
> ...



Basically, except you'll still need to keep your calories (daily, weekly, etc) below maint. if you want to drop the excess fat.  In other words, if you are below maint by a few hundred cals and are dropping fat, you can't just add in 1 or 2 shakes (which obviously have cals) and think you'll still lose.  You need to take them into account when planning your days meals.

Also, I disagree that casien is *best* for your 8:30 shake.  I don't think it matters at all.  Whey, the fastest absorbed protein, keeps aminos at high levels for 4 hours before it begins to drop off, so, since you are eating in less than that time, any protein is fine.  Could even be a few eggs, chicken, etc.


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## Robboe (Mar 14, 2003)

I actually prefer to eat food myself.


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## Arnold (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Karlito *_
> Milk with your protein shakes generally isn't a good idea unless you're uber skinny and trying to pack on pounds no matter what.
> 
> Am I following correctly?



I don't agree with that. If you're cutting than yeah cut out the milk, but if you're trying to gain mass use milk in your shakes.


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## Karlito (Mar 14, 2003)

Well, I'll probably start another thread on this, because I'll need suggestions on how to tweak it every two weeks....but here's my diet and stats right now:

6'3" 198 lbs.  Skinny arms and legs, though chest, shoulders are developing very well.  About 10-15 lbs. of fat around the waist.  Goal is medium build and defined....I hate to use the example as I know you weightlifters think he's a skinny puke, but I'm gunning for a Brad Pitt a la Fight Club (maybe not quite THAT cut) or a Soloflex model physique.....

Been doing this for 6 weeks now:  Following the Body Sculpting Bible for men, every 2 weeks it intensifies until weeks 5&6 you're doing supersets....also works in some cardio....I'm not worried about the workout.  I'm convinced it's working well.  Just want to tweak the diet.

Diet:

9:00 30g (one and half scoops) Whey protein in 16 oz water, with 1 TSP flax seed oil.

10:30 Workout

11:30 Post workout 44g Whey protein in 16oz. water, 4 oz. brown rice & apple (reward)

1:30 One can tuna.  6 oz. Brown rice.  1 TSP flax.  6 cucumber slices.

3:30 30g Whey protein in 16 oz water 1 TSP flax

5:30 8 oz Chicken or Fish (mahi Mahi I like) 6 oz veggies like Asparagus, green beans or squash, and usually a slow burner like 6 oz brown rice or sweet potato.

8:30 Whey (or Casein) protein in 16 oz water w. 1 tsp flax

11:30 Casein protein in 16 oz water w 1 tsp flax

Job is pretty sedimentary, I'm a writer so there's a lot of time at the PC.....Since I started I've lost 14 lbs.  If that helps at all....


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## tucker01 (Mar 14, 2003)

Karlito,

I would try and get in some good solid food sources, although shakes are convient, they don't provide as much as some solid proteins, slow burning carbs, and quality fats. JMO

IDF


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by IainDaniel *_
> Karlito,
> 
> I would try and get in some good solid food sources, although shakes are convient, they don't provide as much as some solid proteins, slow burning carbs, and quality fats. JMO
> ...



What is it that they do not provide that solid food does?


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## tucker01 (Mar 14, 2003)

TP,

Not really looking to start a debate, as I know you have quite a bit of knowledge from reading many threads.  I am of the opinion that solid foods whether chicken, spinach, sweet potatos have benificial nutrients that are in them.  If MRP's were able to provide these, then we would all be on shake diet.

JMO please feel free to educate me otherwise, that is why I read many of these threads is to try and learn.


IDF


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by IainDaniel *_
> TP,
> 
> Not really looking to start a debate, as I know you have quite a bit of knowledge from reading many threads.  I am of the opinion that solid foods whether chicken, spinach, sweet potatos have benificial nutrients that are in them.  If MRP's were able to provide these, then we would all be on shake diet.
> ...



I am not looking to debate either.  Nor am I saying I disagree (as a general matter).

I just have trouble with people giving advice in a vacuum (i.e. not knowin the details of a situation), and giving advice to which the do not have a reason -- which was why I asked for your reason.

The problem is, these boards, and the internet cause too many fallacies to perpetuate.  One should hold his or her tongue, until at least he understands why he hold a certain belief.

So it the nutrients that are different?  If so what nutrients are not available in a good fortified MRP, or can be satisfied with a good multi?

Again, _in general_ I agree with your point, but why?  Please do not take my forcing you to think critically in a bad way.

My point is, that if you heard something, do not simply follow it, ask why, understand.  In the long run you will be far better off critically thinking and not necessarily blindly following the masses.


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## tucker01 (Mar 14, 2003)

Touché, 

I agree with you 100%, but posting in a forum like this is the opportunity to learn where you lack some knowledge.  Hopefully from fellow members that exceed the general understanding but share similar goals and ideas like yourself, DP, w8, and GP and can then educate people like many on this board including myself to present solid examples to help themselves and newer members.

I am always looking to learn, if you wouldn't mind, if you could present some links to better understand where my statement may or may not be true 

IDF


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## Twin Peak (Mar 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by IainDaniel *_
> Touché,
> 
> I agree with you 100%, but posting in a forum like this is the opportunity to learn where you lack some knowledge.  Hopefully from fellow members that exceed the general understanding but share similar goals and ideas like yourself, DP, w8, and GP and can then educate people like many on this board including myself to present solid examples to help themselves and newer members.
> ...



I am glad you took my comments this way and not with offense, as this was how they are intended.

Let me underscore that my biggest issue is people (not necessarily you) not thinking critically and not questioning further.

That said, it is late on Friday afternoon, and I need to wrap some things up for the weekend.  Perhaps on Monday we can address this further, but so far, I have yet to espouse a view on this and feel no (personal) obligation to expound further. 

but if you take this advice to heart, you will learn quickly who knows of what they speak, and who speaks without knowing.

Do me, and yourself a favor.  Go to the avant labs forum, and read the opening statement.


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## Max. Q (Mar 14, 2003)

...just wanted to be clear on something...

Cottage cheese...that's another casein type protein...right?

Is it in the same category as milk, would that be a better alternative to milk if you're cutting....lower sugar content?


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## gopro (Mar 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Also, I disagree that casien is *best* for your 8:30 shake.  I don't think it matters at all.  Whey, the fastest absorbed protein, keeps aminos at high levels for 4 hours before it begins to drop off, so, since you are eating in less than that time, any protein is fine.  Could even be a few eggs, chicken, etc.



Disagree...about the whey part.


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