# Tricep pushdown vs. dips



## Uthinkso (Apr 10, 2007)

I've been having issues with dips, and still do weight assisted dips with roughly 80-100lb for three sets. While I can see triceps growing in size I'm not getting any stronger with dips. 

Then yesterday I saw this wonderful machine. It is a seated tricep pushdown machine. I'm thinking of switching things up for a couple weeks and using that. Your thoughts???


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## MCx2 (Apr 10, 2007)

Can you do any unassisted dips at all?


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## Uthinkso (Apr 10, 2007)

ReproMan said:


> Can you do any unassisted dips at all?




If I lower to a full 90* in proper form I can do 3-4. Would it be better to not do the weight assist and just 4-5 sets to failure of bodyweight dips? I do them as my last movemnt on push day so I can completely burn out on this.


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## MCx2 (Apr 10, 2007)

Uthinkso said:


> If I lower to a full 90* in pproper form I can do 3-4. Would it be better to not do the weight assist and just 4-5 sets of 2-3 bodyweight dips? I do them as my last movemnt on push day so I can completely burn out on this.



I'm no pro, but I would think that if you want to up the amount of BW dips you can do, train BW dips, not assisted. That's the way I did it. I couldn't understand why I couldn't do more than 5-6 dips at a time when I was benching around 280 lbs.

My sets started out looking like this:

Dips:
BW - 6,5,3,1

Within a month or 2:

Dips:
BW - 10,10,8,7

I like to lean forward when I do dips (just my preference), to get the chest more involved, and use something like pushdowns or skullcrushers as my final movement. 

Just a suggestion.


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## tyciol (Apr 10, 2007)

Triceps pushdown is perfectly fine, I got pissed reading a t-nation article (Testosterone Nation - The Top Ten Triceps Exercises) where Charles Poliquin basically dismissed it for no good reason. "hey only people looking at girls use it and look at the arms on gymnasts and powerlifters they don't do triceps pushdowns". Bloody idiotic, guy comes out with some good stuff but the rest is hype. 

What basically matters is progressive resistance for a muscle.

Egads, he even includes an incline triceps pressdown later in the article... so standing pressdowns = bad, lying pressdowns = good? Eugh. As long as your upper arm remains stationary parallel to the line of resistance then it doesn't matter. If you happen to hunch forward in standing you would just raise your arm at the shoulder to compensate that angle, and it'd work your abs to boot.


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## Bakerboy (Apr 10, 2007)

I would do regular dips and then do higher rep bench dips as a burn out.
Also I know you are doing pushups- to work your triceps more try doing them with your hands close together.
CG bench press is another great movement to develop your triceps.


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## iMan323 (Apr 10, 2007)

just work on bodyweight dips and do diamond pushups..the strength will come.


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## Uthinkso (Apr 10, 2007)

All good info here, thanks everybody. I have push day today so I will report back after workout.


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## Uthinkso (Apr 10, 2007)

Well today did not go as planned at all. On a positive I got a real massive pump, my arms felt very hard which is a feeling alien to me.

When I finally got to dips, I went over to the dip bar and took the wider grips since my tris were smoked. I jumped up there used a little leap and locked out my arms and could barely hold myself up there for more than three seconds let alone do a dip. I started to lower myself and my arms just gave way, so I bailed in the interest of safety.

Went over to weight assist dips
7x80lb
4x70lb
attempt again at 70lb and failed out....

Since most will ask here is what the rest of the workout looked like.

Flat DB Press
40x12 (WM Set)
50x10
55x8
55x8

Military DB Press (seated)
25x12
30x8
30x7
(already here my tris were wasted, I am baffled. I just couldn't push any harder)

Incline DB Press
25x12
30x8
30x8

then dips which are mentioned above. I am eating more calories these past two weeks than I have previously which is roughly 2500-2700kcal. I just don't have any strength at all, each time in the gym I get weaker and weaker. So what gives? More calories, try jacking it up to 3000kcal perhaps??

When I started back just to give you an idea I did DB military press 45x10,50x10, 55x8. I'm moving half that weight damn near. I just don't get it at all. Before workout I've already eaten four meals consisting of 1905kcal, 167g carbs, 188g protein, and 59g of fat.

Also I'm 238lb, 23%BF, 6'1" for referrence.


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## Bakerboy (Apr 10, 2007)

Honestly, I think you should change your program to full body 3x a week or an upper/ lower/ upper/ lower set up.
I bet you anything you will see faster progress with it. This is not to knock push/ legs/ pull but it's obvious your triceps are being fried because ever exercise you are doing is hitting your triceps and you are not able (yet) to recover fast enough. 


Sample total body wo day

1) Back squats 3 x 8  
2) DB sinlge leg RDL's 3 x 8
3) DB rows 3 x 8
4) DB standing OH press 3 x 8 
5) stabilization/ core - planks/ crunches
5) Pull ups 3 x 8

That way you can hit your shoulders as hard as you like and it won't effect your other lifts. Don't hold onto what's not working- find what's causing the problem and change it.


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## AKIRA (Apr 10, 2007)

I think the workout is fine for his goals.  However, if a new goal of getting some dips in is now invented, then some reprogramming is required.

It wouldnt surprise me that next week youll have a new goal that youll want to accomplish.  You might be thinking too much.


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## Mystik (Apr 10, 2007)

I really like dips, when I started I could do maybe 1. I'm like half your size but I just did the assisted ones til I was able to do more.


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## danny81 (Apr 10, 2007)

the reason your not getting stronger is because you must change up your routine. iMO atleast. you have to keep it changing to keep your muscles guessing.


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## Uthinkso (Apr 10, 2007)

AKIRA said:


> I think the workout is fine for his goals.  However, if a new goal of getting some dips in is now invented, then some reprogramming is required.
> 
> It wouldnt surprise me that next week youll have a new goal that youll want to accomplish.  You might be thinking too much.



And that sir is why my journal is named "Uthinkso is guilty of overthinking". By nature I am a very meticulaous and analytical person. I'm a quality control engineer for a company that builds engine parts for race cars. We don'thave time or room for error, and unfortuantely I have that mental appraoch in all things I do. It has to be perfect and fast, or seek another avenue. Such is not the case with PROPER weight loss and fitness. It takes time, consistency, and patience. Three virtues I am learning as I go.

Personally I do best with dips when I do them first movement. Also I agree with bakerboy that my push day is so tricep dominant, and combined with my lack of muscular conditioning. I simply can't recover quick enough to rock the push/pull/legs gimmick. I feel it could work, just at this point it doesn't work for me.

However I don't feel it was all for not, the diet thing I just changed two weeks ago. So that is all of april and may to see my progress with that, though I fear my shitty training may hinder progress slightly. I have also learned the benefit of compound movements. I am also a world stronger on my pull day than I am on push day, so I see where my weak spots are so I know to include them in my training. 

I've always done well in the past with a split, and that is what I am most comfortable with. I think though that the split combined with compounds and not so much isolation work will do well for me, and I can start getting my weights back up. My leg day is solid and I wouldn't change a thing there, perhaps some front squats mixed in every other week but thats it. 

I'm thinking like this:
day 1
back and bis (arguably my two strongest areas)

day 2
legs and tris (this day is kind of a upper body/lower body day I guess)

day 3
chest and shoulders


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## AKIRA (Apr 10, 2007)

Meehhhhhhh Triceps will be worked twice a week then, right?


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## maxpro2 (Apr 10, 2007)

For dips I would recommend, in confliction with most of the members here, but this is what worked for me: really challenge yourself on the assisted dips, and work your way up to less assistance. Once you have made good progress, maybe around 30-60lb of assistance, then start doing your bodyweight ones. Do them with a limited range of motion if you have to at first, and go for a number, not form (so do them relatively fast.) The strength will come so quickly after that and then you can switch over to strict form.


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## Uthinkso (Apr 10, 2007)

AKIRA said:


> Meehhhhhhh Triceps will be worked twice a week then, right?





nope just once a week, well I guess two if you consider their involvment in chest day.


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## iMan323 (Apr 11, 2007)

man.  I'm telling you, forget assisted dips.  the only way you're going to build up sufficient strength for that excersize is by doing regular bodyweight dips.  it's fine if you can only do 2-3.  they are a hard excersize.  

Before I left for the army I bought myself a chin-up rack with dip bars.  I could only do 2 pullups and liike 3 dips.  i built my strength up by constantly doing negative reps after I couldn't do regular dips.  negative reps are the key in this, you will get stronger it just won't happen overnight.  In something like 3-4 months I built up my strength to the point of being able to do around 40-50 dips.  I was following Stew Smith's Navy Seal cross-training program which is all about calisthenics and endurance.


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## MCx2 (Apr 11, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> man.  I'm telling you, forget assisted dips.  the only way you're going to build up sufficient strength for that excersize is by doing regular bodyweight dips.  it's fine if you can only do 2-3.  they are a hard excersize.
> 
> Before I left for the army I bought myself a chin-up rack with dip bars.  I could only do 2 pullups and liike 3 dips.  i built my strength up by constantly doing negative reps after I couldn't do regular dips.  negative reps are the key in this, you will get stronger it just won't happen overnight.  In something like 3-4 months I built up my strength to the point of being able to do around 40-50 dips.  I was following Stew Smith's Navy Seal cross-training program which is all about calisthenics and endurance.



Agreed 100%.


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## Uthinkso (Apr 11, 2007)

I'm sorry I don't follow what you mean when you say "negative reps"


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## MCx2 (Apr 11, 2007)

Uthinkso said:


> I'm sorry I don't follow what you mean when you say "negative reps"



He means lowering your body weight as slowly as possible from the top position.


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## NordicNacho (Apr 11, 2007)

Uthinkso said:


> I'm sorry I don't follow what you mean when you say "negative reps"




means if you are not strong enough to go up.  start from the top and slowly lower yourself down.  then use your feet to get back up again


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## AKIRA (Apr 11, 2007)

I forgot about negatives.  Real fucking hard.  However, people are normally stronger eccentrically than concentrically.


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## iMan323 (Apr 11, 2007)

I don't know how negative reps work, but I do know that they do work wonders when it comes to dips, pull-ups, and push-ups.  Try to take as much time as you can when you're lowering yourself.  5 to 10 seconds to come down is a really good goal.  If you can lower yourself slower then do it.  You're going to shake, woble and curse, but trust me, it will pay off!

Great job with your weight loss, btw.  I looked at your graph.


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## maxpro2 (Apr 11, 2007)

I don't know. When you are trying to increase your bench, you just don't start off with the max. Instead you work your way up. I don't see why dips should be any different.

If he can do 3 regular BW dips, but he is using 80-100lbs of assistance, I don't think he is challenging himself enough to make progress with assisted dips. 

It's all in the effort: If he can't push himself with assisted dips and just settles for 100lbs of assistance, then there is no way he is going to be able to push himself with BW dips.


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## MCx2 (Apr 11, 2007)

When you do assisted dips, you're really not doing a dip at all. It's more like one of those seated dip/tricep pushdown machines.


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## Uthinkso (Apr 11, 2007)

ReproMan said:


> When you do assisted dips, you're really not doing a dip at all. It's more like one of those seated dip/tricep pushdown machines.





Exactly!!

Your body supplies part of the weight then the assit kicks in some of its weight, like a balance beam of sorts. So in my case I use 70lb and I weigh 234lb. So I'm on pushing 164lb.


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## Uthinkso (Apr 11, 2007)

iMan323 said:


> Great job with your weight loss, btw.  I looked at your graph.




Thank you.


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## maxpro2 (Apr 11, 2007)

ReproMan said:


> When you do assisted dips, you're really not doing a dip at all. It's more like one of those seated dip/tricep pushdown machines.



Of course you are, it just offsets some of your bodyweight with a counter weight. The motion is the same.


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## MCx2 (Apr 11, 2007)

MWpro said:


> Of course you are, it just offsets some of your bodyweight with a counter weight. The motion is the same.



Not really. Your knees are sitting on a platform, you move on a fixed path. With the platform there, I would think you aren't using any muscles to stabilize your movement, the platform does that for you.

Bottom line is, if you want to better your BW dip #'s, do bodyweight dips. 

You don't improve your pull-up by doing pulldowns....


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## 33sun33 (Apr 11, 2007)

Well, I guess I agree with everyone here but my personal experience was different.  Starting out, I couldnt do a single dip.  Not even close. So I avoided them and worked on building up my chest and triceps with various excercises (generally flat and incline DB presses, maybe some CG bench here and there).  

One day, well over a year later, after I had gained (as a newbie) quite a bit of strength in my chest and tris, I decided to jump on the dip bars just as a lark (and when no one was looking bc I still thought I wouldnt be able to do a full dip).  I was shocked that I could easily do between 10-15 bw dips, and soon started messing around with weighted dips.

That said, my efforts to increase the number of BW reps I can do on chin-ups follows the advice here -- I just do as many BW chins as I can, and then do assisted chins.  I guess its working.  Ill try some negatives though!


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## Phred (Apr 11, 2007)

ReproMan said:


> Not really. Your knees are sitting on a platform, you move on a fixed path. With the platform there, I would think you aren't using any muscles to stabilize your movement, the platform does that for you.
> 
> Bottom line is, if you want to better your BW dip #'s, do bodyweight dips.
> 
> *You don't improve your pull-up by doing pulldowns...*.


Oh crap, now you tell me.


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## maxpro2 (Apr 11, 2007)

ReproMan said:


> Not really. Your knees are sitting on a platform, you move on a fixed path. With the platform there, I would think you aren't using any muscles to stabilize your movement, the platform does that for you.



I disagree. You are not locked in so much as you are with a traditional machine. It is not as fixed, and you still basically can move your legs around on the platform. As long as you have it on a challenging weight, you still have to stabilize yourself. 



> Bottom line is, if you want to better your BW dip #'s, do bodyweight dips.



I agree, but only once you can work your way up to a strength foundation with assisted dips. If you can't do 2 BW dips, I don't think you should be doing regular dips just yet... only if you are pushing yourself with the assisted dips though and making progress. 



> You don't improve your pull-up by doing pulldowns....



This has no relevance; the analogy would be true though if you had said assisted pullups... which I would then argue are crucial for developing pullup strength if you cannot do any pullups. Build that fundamental strength base, as you would do with any other exercise, instead of jumping right into the max.


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## VILBAUGH (Apr 12, 2007)

I would suggest perhaps a "jumping dip" where you hop off the ground and in to a dip..this eliminates the "fixed path issue", grab a box to accomodate your height to the bar. also this will allow you to acheive repitition which tends to be more fun and metabolic than fighting for 1 or 2 bad reps would be.
another option would be to plant your toe on the step of the bars or a box and assist your self accordingly
pushdowns and pulldowns are IMO unneccesary in any fitness routine


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