# Help with HCG (first timer)



## gm09 (May 28, 2012)

so i will be using hcg for the first time. im on my third week of a 10 week cycle (test/tren/mast). i just ordered 29g 1cc slin pins and bacteriostatic water (from amazon). so basically i will be starting the hcg by next week i hope.

my hcg is in two tiny vials (5000iu each, everything is in chinese other wise)

basically i was planning on injecting 1cc of the bacteriostatic water into the vial making 1/10 of a cc = 500iu of HCG. (im planning on pinning 500iu 2x a week up until pct.)

i realize you should start earlier during a cycle, should i go w some bigger shots for the first one or two or just stick with 500iu twice a week?

any input would be appreciated especially if there is any base i forgot to cover


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## david_golds (May 28, 2012)

Don't run it that way.  Just use one vial at the tail end of your cycle, to get your grapes all set to jump-start PCT.  I do 1000 EOD for 5 pins at the end of the cycle, with the last HCG pin scheduled to occur just before the last esters are crashing out of your system.  You don't want to do the HCG too late, because HCG is suppressive to HPTA and will delay your PCT recovery.  But there is no point in doing HCG too early; you're just wasting money.

Schedule one vial of HCG the way I describe, and keep the other vial on hand "just in case" for a short pulse mid-cycle if your grapes shrink and you want to keep them around mid-cycle.  You technically don't *need* to bring them back if they shrink mid-cycle; they'll come back when you do your scheduled pulse at the tail of the cycle.  But you can bring them back if the shrinkage bothers you.  Three pins of 1000 EOD ought to work just fine.

Using HCG for anything other than prepping for PCT or bringing back shrunken grapes is just a waste.


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## gm09 (May 29, 2012)

david_golds said:


> Don't run it that way.  Just use one vial at the tail end of your cycle, to get your grapes all set to jump-start PCT.  I do 1000 EOD for 5 pins at the end of the cycle, with the last HCG pin scheduled to occur just before the last esters are crashing out of your system.  You don't want to do the HCG too late, because HCG is suppressive to HPTA and will delay your PCT recovery.  But there is no point in doing HCG too early; you're just wasting money.
> 
> Schedule one vial of HCG the way I describe, and keep the other vial on hand "just in case" for a short pulse mid-cycle if your grapes shrink and you want to keep them around mid-cycle.  You technically don't *need* to bring them back if they shrink mid-cycle; they'll come back when you do your scheduled pulse at the tail of the cycle.  But you can bring them back if the shrinkage bothers you.  Three pins of 1000 EOD ought to work just fine.
> 
> Using HCG for anything other than prepping for PCT or bringing back shrunken grapes is just a waste.




what about keeping your grapes nice and plump so girls dont get suspicious? haha. thanks for the input

the reason i was going to run it like this is because a guy who i know personally (very experienced and knowledgeable) suggested it. basically told me if youre running 19nors = run HCG period.

im running 600mg test/ 400mg tren/ 400mg masteron per week. i have aromasin on hand for any gyno problems (not running an ai as of now) and torefimene for PCT


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## independent (May 29, 2012)

david_golds said:


> Don't run it that way.  Just use one vial at the tail end of your cycle, to get your grapes all set to jump-start PCT.  I do 1000 EOD for 5 pins at the end of the cycle, with the last HCG pin scheduled to occur just before the last esters are crashing out of your system.  You don't want to do the HCG too late, because HCG is suppressive to HPTA and will delay your PCT recovery.  But there is no point in doing HCG too early; you're just wasting money.
> 
> Schedule one vial of HCG the way I describe, and keep the other vial on hand "just in case" for a short pulse mid-cycle if your grapes shrink and you want to keep them around mid-cycle.  You technically don't *need* to bring them back if they shrink mid-cycle; they'll come back when you do your scheduled pulse at the tail of the cycle.  But you can bring them back if the shrinkage bothers you.  Three pins of 1000 EOD ought to work just fine.
> 
> Using HCG for anything other than prepping for PCT or bringing back shrunken grapes is just a waste.



Terrible advice. 

Use your hcg 2x a week as planned.


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## TonyMack (May 29, 2012)

^ I agree with Moe.


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## gm09 (May 29, 2012)

i dont have ANY instructions as far as how much water to inject into the  vial.. is 1 cc enough, too little for a tiny 5000iu bottle?


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## david_golds (May 29, 2012)

1 cc is enough.  But I normally do 2 cc, just to make it easier to measure when drawing, and so that the tiny bit left in the bottle at the end is that much more diluted.


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## david_golds (May 29, 2012)

If you run it the way you were planning, you definitely won't have to worry about your grapes shrinking.

With gear, I'm all about "more is better", but I don't like to use HCG unless and until it's absolutely necessary.  My natty test levels are in the upper quintile range, and I don't want to take any chances of burning out my natty test factory by bombing the testes with LH when I'm suppressed anyway.  If/when your grapes start to shrink, you'll notice it well before any girls do, and HCG fixes the problem very quickly.

Either way, you'll be fine.  The only thing that matters for HPTA is the HCG at the tail of the cycle; the rest is just cosmetic.

BTW, stop pinning the HCG one week before the scheduled start of your PCT.


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## kobefan234 (May 29, 2012)

what ester is the test ?


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## gm09 (May 30, 2012)

^^^
Test E
Tren E
Mast E

thats interesting about hurting your natural test production while using hcg on cycle... ive never heard that before?


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## msumuscle (May 30, 2012)

david_golds said:


> If you run it the way you were planning, you definitely won't have to worry about your grapes shrinking.
> 
> With gear, I'm all about "more is better", but I don't like to use HCG unless and until it's absolutely necessary.  My natty test levels are in the upper quintile range, and I don't want to take any chances of burning out my natty test factory by bombing the testes with LH when I'm suppressed anyway.  If/when your grapes start to shrink, you'll notice it well before any girls do, and HCG fixes the problem very quickly.
> 
> ...





There's no proof whatsoever that low doses such of HCG cause leydig cell desensitization.  Out of the thousands of steroid abusers Dr. Scally has treated he said he only has seen one that experienced leydig cell desensitization from HCG and that was from a 5000 IU injection.


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## david_golds (May 31, 2012)

gm09 said:


> ^^^
> Test E
> Tren E
> Mast E
> ...



A typical fear is Leydig Cell desensitiztion, which msumuscle correctly points out has never been clinically confirmed in humans at reasonable dosages.  If you use dosages that are too high, you would run the risk of the Leydig Cells in your testes getting fried, such that you could bring your whole HPTA roaring back online, producing LH just like before, and your testes just wouldn't respond to the LH and wouldn't make the natty test.  I'm not too worried about that, because it's not as if we're using large doses.  We're using just enough to compensate for the fact that our LH is crashed out.

I'm thinking more about the chronic effects of being on cycle for 4-6 months per year, for multiple years.  The way I see it, the less Leydig stimulation I use now, the more I have left for when I'm older.  When my LH is crashed out, and my Leydig Cells aren't being stimulated, that's like Leydig money in the bank that I'm not spending.  Bank is good.  If you don't need to spend it, don't spend it.

When I'm spending my Leydig, I want it primarily to be spent on producing natty test.  Any HCG you use while on cycle is not going to be doing anything at all for your test levels.  If I'm spending Leydig for purely cosmetic purposes, I'm gonna be stingy as hell, and spend the bare minimum needed to get the luxury brand bags.  You can spend 10,000 mcg or you can spend 3,000 mcg for those Gucci bags, and the bags will be the same size and just as impressive to the ladies, so why spend more than you need to?

IMO, using HCG a few days at a time, a few times a year, when you're otherwise *natural* is wasteful, but is far more rational than using excess HCG when you're juicing.  When you use HCG without AAS, at least you get some pro-sexual effects that you can time for your own personal pleasure.  When you're swimming in supranatural levels of test from AAS, and your balls haven't even come close to shrinking yet, I don't see any reason to start tapping your bank.

Just my 2 cents, and just explaining my thought process.  We don't have the clinical studies to know for sure whether that extra few thousand mcg you spend every cycle for the same sized Gucci bags is going to hurt you in the long run.


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## SPF (Jun 1, 2012)

Sorry, did you just say that using HCG while on cycle doesn't cause your body to continue producing testosterone? I thought that was the whole point of taking it.


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## david_golds (Jun 2, 2012)

SPF said:


> Sorry, did you just say that using HCG while on cycle doesn't cause your body to continue producing testosterone? I thought that was the whole point of taking it.



Using HCG while on-cycle does NOT cause your body to keep making testosterone.  It just keeps your balls big, so that you're better prepared to start making natty test AFTER you let all of the suppressive AAS clear your body and start PCT.

In fact, that's why you need to stop pinning HCG one week before starting PCT -- so that the HCG itself doesn't suppress your recovery.

Dosing some HCG off-cycle will give you a nice pulse of natty test.  But it's nothing like what this guy is going to be getting with 600mg/week of exogeneous test enth.  He's going to be so flooded with exogeneous test that anything HCG would do would be a drop in the bucket.  And it's a moot point anyway, because his natty test will be flat out suppressed, so HCG is going to add exactly ZERO to his test levels on-cycle.  Once you're suppressed, you're suppressed, and the only thing that's going to bring any natty test back is to let all of the exogeneous susbtances clear your body and then start PCT.


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