# Atkins Diet- do you need a calorie deficet or just need to be in ketosis? (Built)



## Mike2010 (Apr 22, 2009)

Built, sorry if I asked alot of questions last week.  It seemed like alot more because I copied and pasted about half of them (I could have found a more subtle way to get my questions answered) Sorry though, I dont want to disrespect your time.  I apologize if I was a little inconsiderate.  Any how if you or anyone else would be so kind to provide a couple answers regarding diet... I have done alot of researching thru the archives, but can seem to find a definitive....

The "Do it yourself Diet" .. If I follow the instructions and have NO LESS than
1 g of protein and .5 grams of fat per lb of lean mass and around 25g of fiber..lets say I do not add any carbs do the diet (the only carbs would we from the fiber 1 cereal)  I would be doing the same thing as the atkins diet where I'm basically cutting out all carbs...  If I did cut out all carbs, could I then up my calories in fat and protein where I then would not be in a calorie deficet? (if anything maybe a little OVER, but its hard to go too much over with no carbs anyways)..another words If I'm doing Atkins Diet, do I still need a calorie deficet or just make sure I'm in ketosis...does the calorie maintenace rules apply?  Have I left something out

My follow up to this, is that if I do Atkins, why do so many people on here agree that you will keep muscle on Keto and lose muscle in the process on Atkins?...if you have atleast a gram of protein per lb of lean mass is that not the protocol for "retaining" muscle?

And Lastly, if the explanation is yes, you will lose muscle on the akins, and you should do Keto, then fine...but what im me at 162 17% bodyfat doesnt harldy have any muscle to lose? LOL  Its a legit question, its not as if if 200 17%..when I gain 40 lbs of muscle I will get in your mindset, but for right now, seriously... do I even have to be concered about "losing muscle" at this stage?


----------



## Built (Apr 22, 2009)

It would be very similar, I suppose, although with Atkins, you rely upon the satiety that comes from very little insulin response coupled with extremely high protein and fat. Ketosis induces satiety, so does high protein and high fat consumption; high fat is particularly satiating while obese, at least according to the research I've scanned on pubmed, and of course, my own personal experience. And I suppose many others - Atkins made a MINT off that diet book!

Re "is a calorie deficit required?", well, the research says "yes", gopro is adamant without proof that it's "no", and prince has offered that it may very well be "no" - we're all waiting with bated breath for the results of what promises to be some very interesting research. 

I CAN say that it FELT like magic when I did it. I was always "fed" and felt very sated. The weight MELTED off. Then plateaued. It won't get you ripped, but it'll get you from "obese" to "normal weight" in comfort. My health improved by every metric you can think of - and I have the blood tests to prove it. 

I gained muscle in keto. I spent the first 8 months of my lifting career in ketosis, and went from squatting 8 lb dumbbells to squatting nearly a plate a side, ass to grass, for reps, at the tender age of thirty eight and with no assistance whatsoever. 

At 17%, you're not really at risk, no, not unless you really do something silly, like "starve" while not lifting at all, doing tons of cardio, and eating insufficient protein. I don't think we're talking about this scenario. 

That being said, if I were in your shoes, I'd probably do Lyle McDonald's "Rapid fat loss" to ditch a quick ten pounds, then diet and train under "normal" paradigms to lean out for summer, if that's what you want to do. 

Or I'd just carb-cycle slowly down to 150 or so, see how you look and re-assess from there.


----------



## Liftman (Apr 23, 2009)

Mike, I know you directed this question to Built and I don't want to step on any toes so I'll tred lightly here. Zero carb diets work extreamly well for many people, myself included but if you are going to do it make sure you include a refeed on a 7 day cycle or a 10 day cycle. If you want to learn a bunch of info on ketosis and how and why it works pick up a copy of Body Opus. Atkins works for the average person but it isn't geared toward body building. Body Opus is  a program for body builders that lays out diet and training and supplements and why it works. I just posted in the refeed sticky at the top what works for me, it is just slightly differant than Body Opus but after usining the diet over the years I have found what works best for me.

To get to your original question about cals in ketosis, in my experiance the answer is yes you still need to be in cal reduction to get really lean. Here is the deal, when your body is running on glucose (non ketosis) excess cals get stored as fat. While in ketosis fat gets converted to ketones, to be used as fuel. After fat is converted to a ketone it can only be used as fuel by the body or it gets exspelled by the body in your urine or breath. That why people in ketosis have bad breath. LOL. Now this is the key to your question, when you get into ketosis all the fat you put in your body gets converted to ketones for fuel and will not be stored as fat. So in theroy you could eat 4000 cals of fat and not get fatter. Now notice I said "fatter" because if you eat that much fat your body will just use the fat you are eating as fuel and not use your stored fat, or just a small amount anyway. If you really want to stoke the fat burning fire keep the cals low and you body will be forced to pull from your stored fat, convert it to ketones, then use it for fuel, or get rid of it. One more thing I will mention is after you are in ketosis your fat grams are no longer 9 cals each, they are about 7 cals each because of the ketone convertion process. So, in theroy, if your maintance cals are 2000 a day, and you go zero carbs co get into ketosis, as soon as you get into ketosis it is like you dropped your cals without changing your food intake.
For axample if you are eating the following; 133 grams of fat (133 x 9 = 1197 cals), 195 grams of protein (195 x 4 = 780 cals) and no more than 10 grams of carbs (10 x 4 = 40 cals) that comes out to about 2017 cals total while not in ketosis.
Now take the same diet but now in ketosis
133 grams of fat (133 x 7 = 931 cals), 195 grams of protein (195 x 4 = 780 cals) and no more than 10 grams of carbs (10 x 4 = 40 cals) that comes out to only 1751 cals total, that down 250 cals and you didn't change your food intake. 

So anyway I hope this helps.


----------



## Unreal (Apr 23, 2009)

When I went from 320+lbs to 190lbs I was in ketosis the whole time. I also greatly improved my lean mass and my health. I wasn't tracking calories, didn't get ripped, and didn't get very strong but going from barely bench 75lbs to 145lbs and losing 100+lbs says that something worked. 

I think for people like Built and myself that started very fat it is a great way to start but not a continued liftstyle. Sooner or later that has to be something beyong low carb dieting.


----------



## Liftman (Apr 23, 2009)

Unreal said:


> a great way to start but not a continued liftstyle. Sooner or later that has to be something beyong low carb dieting.



That is great advise. I also started out fat (I've been over 200 lbs since 7th grade and have been as heavy as 290) 

I look at low carb dieting as a tool to get to a goal, then use good nutrition to stay there. My problem is in the winter I stop doing my cardio, start eating about Thanksgiving time and wake up sometime in mid January about 30 lbs over my lean weight. LOL


----------



## Built (Apr 23, 2009)

Liftman, I know that's the info you'll read on the low carb boards, but there is so far no valid research that backs up the assertion of no possible fat gain while in ketosis. 

Also, I spent eight months in ketosis without a refeed and I was perfectly healthy, weight training the entire time. It depends on how strong the deficit is, and on how fat you are. 

Finally, there's no need for zero carbs. Low will get you nice satiety as well.


----------



## Liftman (Apr 23, 2009)

Built said:


> Liftman, I know that's the info you'll read on the low carb boards, but there is so far no valid research that backs up the assertion of no possible fat gain while in ketosis.
> 
> Also, I spent eight months in ketosis without a refeed and I was perfectly healthy, weight training the entire time. It depends on how strong the deficit is, and on how fat you are.
> 
> Finally, there's no need for zero carbs. Low will get you nice satiety as well.



You are correct I have never read any research that supported being able to eat all the fat you want without getting fatter in ketosis. It is all thoery. 

I didn't get my info from low carb boards, it was from Body Opus and my real life experiance. I have done Body Opus for up to 16 weeks for a show and it worked. 

Eight months is a long time in Ketosis and all the so called experts would tell you that you were killing yourself. LOL. My blood tests never showed any liver damage and my colestral acually dropped. 

As far as the fat cals while in Ketosis I never got real lean until I stayed around 1600 cals. Then kept my refeed to less than 36 hours. 

The reason I use this diet is because it takes away many temptations for me. You know when you are on a normal low cal diet (where you can have some carbs) you sometimes think well I could have a bagel at the office, and my problem is after I have the simple carbs I want them all day. So the zero carb (I do eat greens) keeps me on track and after I get into ketosis, I'm never hungry. 

You are also correct, you do not need zero carbs to reach ketosis unless you want to get into ketosis in 2 days. You have to go zero for those two days. That is my experiance anyway. If you are just going to get there over a period of a week there is no need to go zero carbs.

Funny thing happened when I streched my ketosis cycle out to 10 days at 1600 cals, I stopped peeing ketones. Back then not many people were doing this type of dieting so I did a few days of research and found out if your body is burning all the ketones that are converted than you will no longer pee them out. Makes sense but I was freaking out thinking somehow I was getting carbs in my diet. Aww the joys of precontest dieting. LOL

I did have a theroy about the whole ketone convertion thing. Your body can only convert so much fat into ketones at a time so if you eat more fat than your body can convert at one time then the access fat would have to go to your fat storage. Just my thoughts.


----------



## Built (Apr 23, 2009)

Liftman said:


> You are correct I have never read any research that supported being able to eat all the fat you want without getting fatter in ketosis. It is all thoery.


I think you mean conjecture, yes? In colloquial use, theory and conjecture are interchangeable, but really they're not the same thing. It's conjecture until you start testing it. Once you have repeatable results, you can develop it into a theory. But I'm being pedantic. 



Liftman said:


> I didn't get my info from low carb boards, it was from Body Opus and my real life experiance. I have done Body Opus for up to 16 weeks for a show and it worked. .


Awesome. Lyle McDonald did Body Opus, too. He developed UD2.0 from it. 


Liftman said:


> Eight months is a long time in Ketosis and all the so called experts would tell you that you were killing yourself. LOL. My blood tests never showed any liver damage and my colestral acually dropped.
> .


Mine did too. And I had EVERYTHING checked - lipids, glucose, insulin, creatinine, GFR (kidneys), liver enzymes… you name it. Every measurable parameter of my health improved. 


Liftman said:


> As far as the fat cals while in Ketosis I never got real lean until I stayed around 1600 cals. Then kept my refeed to less than 36 hours.
> 
> The reason I use this diet is because it takes away many temptations for me. You know when you are on a normal low cal diet (where you can have some carbs) you sometimes think well I could have a bagel at the office, and my problem is after I have the simple carbs I want them all day. So the zero carb (I do eat greens) keeps me on track and after I get into ketosis, I'm never hungry.


I need shorter refeeds, too. Interesting how not hungry  you are in ketosis, isn't it?


Liftman said:


> You are also correct, you do not need zero carbs to reach ketosis unless you want to get into ketosis in 2 daysYou have to go zero for those two days. That is my experiance anyway. .


I can go into ketosis after eating bagels for breakfast in one day: it's called "three hour bike ride around Vancouver" LMAO!


Liftman said:


> If you are just going to get there over a period of a week there is no need to go zero carbs.
> 
> Funny thing happened when I streched my ketosis cycle out to 10 days at 1600 cals, I stopped peeing ketones. Back then not many people were doing this type of dieting so I did a few days of research and found out if your body is burning all the ketones that are converted than you will no longer pee them out. Makes sense but I was freaking out thinking somehow I was getting carbs in my diet. Aww the joys of precontest dieting. LOL
> 
> I did have a theroy about the whole ketone convertion thing. Your body can only convert so much fat into ketones at a time so if you eat more fat than your body can convert at one time then the access fat would have to go to your fat storage. Just my thoughts.



Again, interesting conjecture. The short answer is "I don't know" - I suppose beyond a certain point, you simply won't digest any more food and you'll just crap it out.


----------



## Liftman (Apr 24, 2009)

Built said:


> Awesome. Lyle McDonald did Body Opus, too. He developed UD2.0 from it.



I haven't read that. Is it good?



Built said:


> I need shorter refeeds, too. Interesting how not hungry  you are in ketosis, isn't it?



I know I think it's cool the sounds your stomach will make and you still don't feel hungry.



Built said:


> I can go into ketosis after eating bagels for breakfast in one day: it's called "three hour bike ride around Vancouver" LMAO!



Very good! LOL

Is it getting warm up there yet? It just got warm enough here for me to run outside again, I much prefer that to the tread mill.



Built said:


> I suppose beyond a certain point, you simply won't digest any more food and you'll just crap it out.



LMAO


----------



## Built (Apr 24, 2009)

Glad you enjoyed that! And yes, it's sunny and mild here lately. 

UD2's a very good read.


----------



## Lobo2009 (Apr 24, 2009)

I dont know much about research but can give you information based on experience.

Last year I dieted from 20% down to 5-6% doing low-moderate carb (anything from 50-200g a day).

Having put the weight  back on over winter trying to "bulk" (what a mess I made of that), Im dieting again and have gradually gone to an extremely low carb diet.  (40g carbs before and after workout 3 times a week.  Zero carbs 3 days a week and a carb load on the 7th day)

Im not noticing any real difference in progress this year to last.  In both cases Im running high protein with a calorie deficit.

Just to add, I dont know if Im in ketosis and I dont know if this falls into keto diet bracket.  But thats my experience so far anyway if that info helps.

And Im down to about 9% just now.


----------

