# Avoid Nolvadex at all cost?



## topolo (Jan 30, 2006)

Taken from Mesomorphosis.com

Why Nolvadex Should be Avoided at All Cost
by Dharkam  

Nolvadex is the trade name of a drug containing a molecule called Tamoxifen. Its primary use by male bodybuilders is to prevent gynecomastia (the growth of the breast tissue). It was introduced by steroid guru Dan Duchaine 25 years ago. After a quarter of century, it is time for an update about its use. What I am going to demonstrate is it is high time to eliminate Nolvadex from the bodybuilder's drug stacks.

A Little Bit of History

Back in the late 70's, more and more bodybuilders developed strange lumps around their mammary glands. At first, no one really took notice but more and more competitors grew a gynecomastia. In 1981, the M Olympia had a pretty serious gyno. This was shortly after the introduction of this new drug by Dan Duchaine. At the time, it was a pretty good idea as no one else could came up with a solution in order to prevent this growing problem. Nolvadex was popularised by Dan's first Underground Steroid Handbook. Dan even states that "this drug has a lot of potential but hasn't been used enough yet to find it". After more than 25 years of intensive usage, it is my opinion that it is time to forget about Nolvadex. Why? First, because newer and more effective drugs have been developed. Second, because it seems obvious that Nolvadex impairs muscle growth.

Nolvadex and Muscle Growth

After so many years of usage, it seems pretty clear that if Tamoxifen helps prevent the growth of the nipples, it also weakens the anabolic properties of steroids in a majority of bodybuilders. We are frequently said that this weakening effect is due to the anti-estrogenic action of Nolvadex. According to the fantasy, muscles require both testosterone and estrogens to grow at an optimal rate.

This belief is derived from the results of studies showing that without estrogens, testosterone alone possesses minimal anabolic properties. By increasing the density of androgen receptors, estrogens render the muscles much more sensitive to testosterone (1). This has been demonstrated in a very specific muscle called the levator ani. But this muscle does not reflect what happens in the muscles bodybuilders are interested in (2). Estrogens have even been shown to reduce muscle fiber size (3-4). I think this effect of estrogens is closer to what we experience on bodybuilders.

Another popular explanation of the weakening action of Nolvadex is provided by studies which have shown that it reduced the plasma level of IGF-1. I do not think this is a primary explanation. 

What Nolvadex Truly Is

Most lifters assume Nolvadex is a pure estrogen antagonist (which would mean it prevents estrogens from acting on their receptors). As far as bodybuilding is concerned, this assumption is very wrong as Nolvadex is both an estrogen receptor agonist and an antagonist. It all depends upon the tissues. Along with the nipples, on which Nolvadex acts mainly as an antagonist, we are also interested by its behaviour on skeletal muscles, on the liver and on the fat cells. 

Nolvadex has been shown to behave as estrogens in skeletal muscles (5). This is a very good thing for every athletes except bodybuilders. You see, estrogens protect muscle cells from the training-induced damages (5-6). It means that one can train more without damaging his muscles. Recovery will also be much faster. But for bodybuilders, the training-induced damages are a key ingredient to trigger growth. Nolvadex will therefore reduce the muscle building effects of resistance training. 

As for the impact of Tamoxifen on IGF-1, it simply demonstrates another estrogen-like action of Nolvadex. By rendering the liver less sensitive to growth hormone (probably by reducing the liver density of GH receptors), estrogens and tamoxifen diminish the production of IGF-1. This action of estrogens explains why women produce less IGF-1 than men eventhough the have a higher GH level.

Nolvadex and Muscle Definition

Within 24 to 48 hours, Nolvadex is able to greatly increase muscular definition. As a result, bodybuilders assume Nolvadex will help them reduce their bodyfat level. But this rapid cutting action of Nolvadex is due to an anti-estrogenic action on water retention. Estrogens will make you hold water. Nolvadex will produce the opposite effect. But it says nothing about the impact of Tamoxifen on bodyfat. Depending upon your own production of estrogens and your estrogen receptor density on adipocytes, Nolvadex can act as an antagonist (which would help you lose fat) or an agonist. In that case, Nolvadex will make you fatter especially in the lower body area. 

Conclusion: if the introduction of Nolvadex 25 years ago was a brilliant idea, times have changed. Very effective anti-aromatase drugs (such as Letrozole or Anastrazole) have been introduced. They will fight gynecomastia, help prevent the anti-anabolic actions of estrogens, fight fat and water retention. They will also boost natural testosterone production far more effectively than Nolvadex. So, it is up to you to decide whether you wish impair your rate of progression with an outdated drug or move on to the 21st century.

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/dharkam/avoid-nolvadex.htm


Bibliography:

(1) Max SR. Androgen-estrogen synergy in rat levator ani muscle: glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase. Mol Cell Endocrinol. 1984 Dec;38(2-3):103-7. 

(2) Rance NE, Max SR. Modulation of the cytosolic androgen receptor in striated muscle by sex steroids. Endocrinology. 1984 Sep;115(3):862-6. 

(3) Kobori M, Yamamuro T. Effects of gonadectomy and estrogen administration on rat skeletal muscle. Clin Orthop Relat Res. 1989 Jun;(243):306-11. 

(4) Suzuki S, Yamamuro T. Long-term effects of estrogen on rat skeletal muscle. Exp Neurol. 1985 Feb;87(2):291-9. 

(5) Koot RW, Amelink GJ, Blankenstein MA, Bar PR. Tamoxifen and oestrogen both protect the rat muscle against physiological damage. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1991;40(4-6):689-95.  

(6) Naessens G, De Slypere JP, Dijs H, Driessens M. Hypogonadism as a cause of recurrent muscle injury in a high level soccer player. A case report. Int J Sports Med. 1995 Aug;16(6):413-7.


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## GFR (Jan 30, 2006)

I disagree with many of these points.....but still an interesting read.


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## DOMS (Jan 30, 2006)

The main problems with Nolvadex seem to be the stunting of muscle growth through (over) protection of tissue breakdown and liver sensitivity of the liver to 1GF-1.  The only time I would take is during PCT when my main goal is to prevent muscle loss and not muscle gain.  So it's really no big deal.


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## ZECH (Jan 30, 2006)

I don't think too much of the article either. Sure there may be some concerns, but not to the extent that this guy says.


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## devon (Jan 30, 2006)

Hi there.....
I have a question : I would like to do a 3 weeks cycle with the 19 norandro, after this a PCT is necessary as with the pro hormones wich converts to testosterone ?


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## Tha Don (Jan 30, 2006)

funny how if you click the link next to that article, about PCT, they recommend running (yep! you guessed it!) TAMOXIFEN

so one guy on there is saying to avoid it at all costs, the next guy is saying it is an essential part of PCT, bit contradictive no?


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## brogers (Jan 30, 2006)

IBE is going to start carrying Toremifene.


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## redspy (Jan 30, 2006)

Interesting, but I'll still be using Nolva for PCT.


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## Tha Don (Jan 30, 2006)

what alternatives are there? clomid, somehow i'd rather run tamoxifen then that rubbish, i do value my eyesight

could an AI such as adex or aromasin be used instead of a SERM such as nolva? what would the drawbacks be? not allowing the HPTA to balance and a possible estrogen rebound at the end of pct i'm guessing (as has been the problem with Rebound XT), could this be avoided by tapering slowly off the dose and using natural anti estrogens?(nettle root, fenugreek, trib) or wouldn't that cut it? what about if a low dose of nolva (ie 20mg/ed) and an AI was used for pct?


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## musclepump (Jan 30, 2006)

young d said:
			
		

> what alternatives are there? clomid, somehow i'd rather run tamoxifen then that rubbish, i do value my eyesight
> 
> could an AI such as adex or aromasin be used instead of a SERM such as nolva? what would the drawbacks be? not allowing the HPTA to balance and a possible estrogen rebound at the end of pct i'm guessing (as has been the problem with Rebound XT), could this be avoided by tapering slowly off the dose and using natural anti estrogens?(nettle root, fenugreek, trib) or wouldn't that cut it? what about if a low dose of nolva (ie 20mg/ed) and an AI was used for pct?


 
Yeah, funny how he talks of how outdated nolva is, says there are alternatives, but doesn't mention what.


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## FullGo (Jan 30, 2006)

ive run nova in every cycle ive done containing high amounts of test . my losses imo were little if any. and the only nice round set of tits in my house are on my wife.i just cant see doing away with something thats worked so good .


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## DOMS (Jan 31, 2006)

I was reading about the Oxidative Energy System.  Initially, during prolonged, sub-maximal, steady-state work the body relies nearly 100% on carbohydrates as its sole energy substrate.  After a prolonged period the body shifts to fats and protein as energy substrates.

So, if Nolvadex protects muscle fibers from breaking down, then wouldn't it be beneficial to take it during a cutting phase?  This way the body could only use fats as an energy substrate, thus sparing protein (muscle).   You could lose the fat faster while keeping more of the hard-earned muscle.

Does this sound feasible?  Should Nolvedex be taken during every cut (along with prolonged steady-state aerobic activity)?


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## Mudge (Jan 31, 2006)

Tamoxifen can affect eyesight also, its in the PDR. I still prefer it greatly over clomid/clomiphene citrate.

I dont really use nolvadex during cycle unless I really have to, even my AI use has declined over time because I just dont need it anymore.


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## DOMS (Feb 1, 2006)

Do they know why Tamoxifen causes problems with vision?  Are the affects permanent?


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