# What to do when PCT fails to get your Natural Test going.



## BigBlackGuy (Jul 21, 2011)

I'm just looking at some opinions here.  I've seen blood work recently of some guys who are not recovering from very meticulously planned PCTs.  They were not stupid with their cycles, simple 16 weekers with proper ancillaries (ais, hcg, etc.).  No deca used, just Test, sometimes Tren.

What would you guys say if you did PCT properly and couldn't get test above 200 ng/dl?  Would you simply start cruising, would you try and keep going to docs to get the problem fixed or would you just wait out the time period before your next cycle?

Let me know... thanks.


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## OldSchoolLifter (Jul 21, 2011)

BigBlackGuy said:


> I'm just looking at some opinions here.  I've seen blood work recently of some guys who are not recovering from very meticulously planned PCTs.  They were not stupid with their cycles, simple 16 weekers with proper ancillaries (ais, hcg, etc.).  No deca used, just Test, sometimes Tren.
> 
> What would you guys say if you did PCT properly and couldn't get test above 200 ng/dl?  Would you simply start cruising, would you try and keep going to docs to get the problem fixed or would you just wait out the time period before your next cycle?
> 
> Let me know... thanks.



For me the time came when I exhausted all options to recover, with constant blood work, and still couldn't get past a stable mark. I then got trt, and now dont worry about pct.


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## WallsOfJericho (Jul 21, 2011)

How often does this happen? not being able to recover?


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## independent (Jul 21, 2011)

I would run the TRS stack from PP.


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## OldSchoolLifter (Jul 21, 2011)

WallsOfJericho said:


> How often does this happen? not being able to recover?



It takes years of use, and long cycles to hit that point


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## minimal (Jul 21, 2011)

bigmoe65 said:


> I would run the TRS stack from PP.



whats TRS


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## WallsOfJericho (Jul 21, 2011)

OldSchoolLifter said:


> It takes years of use, and long cycles to hit that point



Oh ok, thats good to know.


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## bulldogz (Jul 21, 2011)

lol...I was about to say the same....use the TRS from PP...


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## independent (Jul 21, 2011)

minimal said:


> whats TRS



Placebos.


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## minimal (Jul 21, 2011)

bigmoe65 said:


> Placebos.



where can i get it? how much?


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## independent (Jul 21, 2011)

minimal said:


> where can i get it? how much?



Natural Testosterone Recovery - LH Booster, Cortisol Controller & Testicular Sensitizer


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## OldSchoolLifter (Jul 21, 2011)

bigmoe65 said:


> Natural Testosterone Recovery - LH Booster, Cortisol Controller & Testicular Sensitizer


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## MDR (Jul 21, 2011)

OldSchoolLifter said:


> It takes years of use, and long cycles to hit that point


 
True for many people.  Depends on the substances used to a degree also.  I think in cases like this it just takes an extended break to come back.  The body takes time to adjust.  If you do not come back with time, TRT for life is the only real option.


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## bulldogz (Jul 21, 2011)

OldSchoolLifter said:


>


 
its all over...the PP team is gonna come into this thread full force now..


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## heavyiron (Jul 21, 2011)

A second PCT is common. I recommend a Clomid restart the second PCT.


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## BigBlackGuy (Jul 22, 2011)

Yah I won't come back to this thread.  I didn't mention a single product, I came to this board specifically and posted in this anabolic section because most of the guys here genuinely give a shit about answering questions.

Really, that's fucking bullshit the responses in here.

And thanks to those who actually answered the question, I appreciate it.



WallsOfJericho said:


> How often does this happen? not being able to recover?



AFAIK, it can happen even when PCT is perfect.  That's why I'm asking.



OldSchoolLifter said:


> It takes years of use, and long cycles to hit that point



This is what I see assumed, that's why I asked here.


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## MDR (Jul 22, 2011)

heavyiron said:


> A second PCT is common. I recommend a Clomid restart the second PCT.


 
^I think this is the best solution to the problem.


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## CMB (Jul 22, 2011)

Lmfao!!!!! Perfect example that your piece of shit clomid doesn't work. To the OP, go to ELITEFITNESS and you will really learn the best pct there is and it's 1000000% guaranteed to work or your money back


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## heavyiron (Jul 22, 2011)

*Clomiphene Citrate Effects on Testosterone/Estrogen Ratio in Male Hypogonadism*

Ahmad Shabsigh, MD 1 , Young Kang, MD 1 , Ridwan Shabsign, MD 1 , Mark Gonzalez, MD 1 , Gary Liberson, MD 1 , Harry Fisch, MD 1 , and Erik Goluboff, MD 1 
1 Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA 
Correspondence to Harry Fisch, MD, 944 Park Ave, New York, NY 10020, USA. Tel: 212-879-0800; Fax: 212-988-1634; E-mail: harryfisch@aol.com 
Copyright Blackwell Publishing Ltd 2005

*ABSTRACT*

*Aim.* Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testostosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio.

*Methods.* Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed.

*Results.* The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 ± 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 ± 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4???6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 ± 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients.

*Conclusions.* Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estadiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway. Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, and Goluboff E. Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism. J Sex Med 2005;2:716???721.


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## heavyiron (Jul 22, 2011)

*Recovery of persistent hypogonadism by clomiphene in males with prolactinomas under dopamine agonist treatment.*

Ribeiro RS, Abucham J.

Division of Endocrinology, Department of Medicine, Escola Paulista de Medicina, Universidade Federal de São Paulo, Rua Pedro de Toledo, 910. São Paulo 04039-002, Brasil.

*CONTEXT:* Persistence of hypogonadism is common in male patients with prolactinomas under dopamine agonist (DA) treatment. Conventional therapy with testosterone causes undesirable fluctuations in serum testosterone levels and inhibition of spermatogenesis. 

*OBJECTIVE:* To evaluate the use of clomiphene as a treatment for persistent hypogonadism in males with prolactinomas. DESIGN: Open label, single-arm, prospective trial. 

*PATIENTS:* Fourteen adult hypogonadal males (testosterone <300 ng/dl and low/normal LH) with prolactinomas on DA, including seven with high prolactin (range: 29-1255 microg/l; median: 101 microg/l) despite maximal doses of DA. INTERVENTION: Clomiphene (50 mg/day orally) for 12 weeks. MEASURES: Testosterone, estradiol, LH, FSH, and prolactin were measured before and 10 days, 4, 8, and 12 weeks after clomiphene. Erectile function, sperm analysis, body composition, and metabolic profiles were evaluated before and after clomiphene. 

*RESULTS:* Ten patients (71%), five hyperprolactinemic and two normoprolactinemic, responded to clomiphene (testosterone >300 ng/dl). Testosterone levels increased from 201+/-22 to 457+/-37 ng/dl, 436+/-52, and 440+/-47 ng/dl at 4, 8, and 12 weeks respectively (0.001<P<0.01). Estradiol increased significantly and peaked at 12 weeks. LH increased from 1.7+/-0.4 to 6.2+/-2.0 IU/l, 4.5+/-0.7, and 4.6+/-0.7 IU/l at 4, 8, and 12 weeks respectively (0.001<P<0.05). FSH levels increased in a similar fashion. Prolactin levels remained unchanged. Erectile function improved (P<0.05) and sperm motility increased (P<0.05) in all six patients with asthenospermia before clomiphene. 

*CONCLUSIONS:* Clomiphene restores normal testosterone levels and improves sperm motility in most male patients with prolactinomas and persistent hypogonadism under DA therapy. Recovery of gonadal function by clomiphene is independent of prolactin levels.

PMID: 19359408 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## heavyiron (Jul 22, 2011)

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Dec;80(12):3546-52.

*Effect of raising endogenous testosterone levels in impotent men with secondary hypogonadism: double blind placebo-controlled trial with clomiphene citrate.*

Guay AT, Bansal S, Heatley GJ.
Section of Endocrinology, Lahey Clinic, Burlington, Massachusetts 01805, USA.

*Abstract*

Secondary hypogonadism is not an infrequent abnormality in older patients presenting with the primary complaint of erectile dysfunction. Because of the role of testosterone in mediating sexual desire and erectile function in men, these patients are usually treated with exogenous testosterone, which, while elevating the circulating androgens, suppresses gonadotropins from the hypothalamic-pituitary axis. The response of this form of therapy, although extolled in the lay literature, has usually not been effective in restoring or even improving sexual function. This failure of response could be the result of suppression of gonadotropins or the lack of a cause and effect relationship between sexual function and circulating androgens in this group of patients. Further, because exogenous testosterone can potentially increase the risk of prostate disease, it is important to be sure of the benefit sought, i.e. an increase in sexual function. In an attempt to answer this question, we measured the hormone levels and studied the sexual function in 17 patients with erectile dysfunction who were found to have secondary hypogonadism. This double blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over study consisted of treatment with clomiphene citrate and a placebo for 2 months each. *Similar to our previous observations, LH, FSH, and total and free testosterone levels showed a significant elevation in response to clomiphene citrate over the response to placebo.* However, sexual function, as monitored by questionnaires and nocturnal penile tumescence and rigidity testing, did not improve except for some limited parameters in younger and healthier men. The results confirmed that there can be a functional secondary hypogonadism in men on an out-patient basis, but correlation of the hormonal status does not universally reverse the associated erectile dysfunction to normal, thus requiring closer scrutiny of claims of cause and effect relationships between hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction.


PMID: 8530597 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## MDR (Jul 22, 2011)

CMB said:


> Lmfao!!!!! Perfect example that your piece of shit clomid doesn't work. To the OP, go to ELITEFITNESS and you will really learn the best pct there is and it's 1000000% guaranteed to work or your money back


 
Go sell your snake oil somewhere else.  Nobody here is buying your line of B.S.


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## sjk (Jul 22, 2011)

heavyiron said:


> A second PCT is common. I recommend a Clomid restart the second PCT.


 
x2


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## BigBlackGuy (Jul 22, 2011)

Thanks for the great info heavyiron.  I personally use torem... I've never had the chance to use clomid, however.  Only nolva, and it SUCKED for PCT.


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## heavyiron (Jul 22, 2011)

BigBlackGuy said:


> Thanks for the great info heavyiron. I personally use torem... I've never had the chance to use clomid, however. Only nolva, and it SUCKED for PCT.


 No problem,

E2 can rise pretty high when using a SERM in PCT so you may need to use an AI towards the end of PCT but only labs can confirm.


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## ROID RANGER (Jul 22, 2011)

test complete by jem nutrition


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## OldSchoolLifter (Jul 23, 2011)

CMB said:


> your mom loves my snake oil when it goes down her throat. ask her about it. shes my number 1 customer




What are you 15 bro?, Lol your posts are as informative, and as eloquent as my four year old.


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## OldSchoolLifter (Jul 23, 2011)

CMB said:


> Hope ur 4 year old along with u get hit by a car ignorant fuck




What is funny is your what I consider a keyboard thug, I would bet if you ever came to me and said that to my face, you would never walk again. One thing about being a parent, is it doesn't matter what douche is in your face, if your kids are involved that person will be taken out.

And realize another thing, My computer skills are very high, as this is what I do for a living so if you want your personal information away from the public eye. Id watch your mouth before shit really gets ugly for you.


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## twist3ci (Jul 23, 2011)

i hate hearing people not being able to recover, was one of things that stopped me from trying aas earlier, but i almost never hear of it unless the guy really abused the crap out of the stuff for years.


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## bishop22 (Jul 23, 2011)

I feel PCT's arnt stressed enough..

Yeah, AI's and some Clomiphene will do.. but thats the BARE minimum to any cycle.

I always use top notch OTC supps like Formastanzol, Phytoserm, UNLEASHED, ect even with my basic exemestane and clomid.. sometimes hcg for 8 weeks on cycle depending how heavy it is.


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## BIGBEN2011 (Jul 25, 2011)

bishop22 said:


> I feel PCT's arnt stressed enough..
> 
> Yeah, AI's and some Clomiphene will do.. but thats the BARE minimum to any cycle.
> 
> I always use top notch OTC supps like Formastanzol, Phytoserm, UNLEASHED, ect even with my basic exemestane and clomid.. sometimes hcg for 8 weeks on cycle depending how heavy it is.


this is one of the best post i have ever read bar none.formastanzol is the best ai you can get just can not use to much during pct or it will shut you down.all so creatin is good to put in your pct along with clomid and aro but i use every thing including the kitchen sink during pct and while i am off.why not.


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## BigBlackGuy (Jul 25, 2011)

Eh forma gave me itchy nips.  Pretty sure it lowered my DHT too much.  No telling why it did that though.

Thanks for all the responses guys.


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