# How much Glutamine?



## Jim1954 (Aug 15, 2003)

I was wondering how much Glutamine you should take as a suppliment? I weigh 148, don't know body fat %. My abs are not visible yet, but I think the top portion are getting there.
Any information would be appreciated.

Jim


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## OceanDude (Aug 15, 2003)

Jim I don't know if there are any specific hard and set rules. I bought a kilo in powder form (very economical this way) and use it to fill a smaller l-glutamine container as I deplete it. I take 5 gm 3x daily: 5 gm at wakeing up, 5gm post workout and 5 gm before bed. On the post workout I usually just dump it in with my creatine mix.


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## gopro (Aug 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> Jim I don't know if there are any specific hard and set rules. I bought a kilo in powder form (very economical this way) and use it to fill a smaller l-glutamine container as I deplete it. I take 5 gm 3x daily: 5 gm at wakeing up, 5gm post workout and 5 gm before bed. On the post workout I usually just dump it in with my creatine mix.



Solid advice!


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## oaktownboy (Aug 15, 2003)

When Should You Take It? 
There are four key times to take glutamine 

In the morning 
The morning is an important time to take glutamine because the body has been without food usually for 8 or more hours. Therefore, the muscle stores of glutamine are depleted and need to be replenished; 

Before working out 
This is an important time because one wants to prevent excessive breakdown of muscle while working out. L-glutamine stores in the muscle drop to their lowest while working out intensely. This depletion occurs due to the high demand of energy needed because of muscular contraction and micro-tears that result from a work-out; 

After working out 
Being the most abundant amino acid in muscle tissue, it is important to replace glutamine after working out, as this will aid in recovery, and growth of the muscle. Glutamine is absorbed better after an intense workout due to the high demand. Glutamine adds to the overall weight and mass of muscle cells; 

Bedtime 
Before going to bed it is important to take glutamine because of the long fast the body is about to encounter. The immunity also tends to diminish while sleeping. Taking glutamine has been shown to increase the immunity of subjects taking it. Therefore, it is important to get that dose of glutamine at bedtime to prevent lowered immune activity.

*compliments of East Coast Muscle*


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## Jim1954 (Aug 15, 2003)

OceanDude,

I've only recently bought a bottle of the stuff (capsules) and figured at the price I am paying, if I took 15 grams a day it would cost $44 for a months supply! How much do you figure you pay for a 30 day supply at 15 grams a day?


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## ArduousMeister (Aug 15, 2003)

What do you guys mix it with? I used to mix it with juice but I try to stay away from juices now and I don't drink milk, and it tastes like crap in water.  I mix it with shakes but before bed and first thing in the morn are not time that I drink shakes. Is water the best route then?


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## gopro (Aug 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ArduousMeister *_
> What do you guys mix it with? I used to mix it with juice but I try to stay away from juices now and I don't drink milk, and it tastes like crap in water.  I mix it with shakes but before bed and first thing in the morn are not time that I drink shakes. Is water the best route then?



Try Crystal Light drink mix.


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## Mudge (Aug 15, 2003)

Jim, when you buy something encapsulated it is almost absolutely going to cost more. If you can find it in "raw" form it is almost always cheaper, sometimes by a fair amount especially if it is just substance with no advertising behind it.


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## Jim1954 (Aug 15, 2003)

Hey now, where can you buy stuff like this?!?!???


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## OceanDude (Aug 15, 2003)

Well here is one source I use - about the cheepest super store on the internet I have seen for a lot of different products and free shipping for orders over $50.
http://www.vitaglo.com/


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## Arnold (Aug 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Solid advice!



Hey gopro, I thought I remember you saying that it was necessary to take around 30grams of Glutamine (OD recommended 15grams) to see any real benefit...have you changed your stance on this?


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## Jim1954 (Aug 15, 2003)

OceanDude,

Thanks, I'll definitely be ordering some things.


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## OceanDude (Aug 15, 2003)

Cool. Look into EAS L-glutamine - they have a kilo tub that will last over 2 months. There may be other generic brands out there since EAS does tend to be pricier but their quality is usually right up there.


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## gopro (Aug 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Hey gopro, I thought I remember you saying that it was necessary to take around 30grams of Glutamine (OD recommended 15grams) to see any real benefit...have you changed your stance on this?



No, not when the guy asking about it weighs 148 lbs! Add about 5 more grams for every 25 lbs of bodyweight.


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## Arnold (Aug 19, 2003)

Okay, but OceanDude gave that recommendation based on what HE uses, and I know that OD weighs more than 148lbs.


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## gopro (Aug 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Okay, but OceanDude gave that recommendation based on what HE uses, and I know that OD weighs more than 148lbs.



Oh I see...I was really commenting on his dosage timing, not amounts. I should have been more specific.


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## kdwa1 (Aug 27, 2003)

Anybody have a hard time sleeping on it? Syntrax has a good one,Glu FX and tastes real clean.I take straight  with water


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## gopro (Aug 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kdwa1 *_
> Anybody have a hard time sleeping on it? Syntrax has a good one,Glu FX and tastes real clean.I take straight  with water



Trouble sleeping? There is no stimulatory effect with glutamine


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## kdwa1 (Aug 27, 2003)

Really?I get a major pump on Glutamine myself and a bit restless.Do you guys take it right before bed or a couple hours? How long does it stay in the system? I'm wondering because if I take it several times during the day like 15 g's isn't  it enough to carry me through the night without a pre sleep load?Tks


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## Tank316 (Aug 28, 2003)

i take up to 20 grams before bed and sleep like a baby.


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## gopro (Aug 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by kdwa1 *_
> Really?I get a major pump on Glutamine myself and a bit restless.Do you guys take it right before bed or a couple hours? How long does it stay in the system? I'm wondering because if I take it several times during the day like 15 g's isn't  it enough to carry me through the night without a pre sleep load?Tks



Take another 5 g 1 hr before sleep. But if it really does keep you up for some strange reason, than just skip it.


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## PB&J (Aug 28, 2003)

Is it advisable to use glutamine while bulking?


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## gopro (Aug 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by PB&J *_
> Is it advisable to use glutamine while bulking?



Some will say no! I say yes! I use it year around whether bulking or cutting! I made some of the best gains of my life while using 30-50 g per day of glutamine.

Best glutamines:

-VPX Glutamine
-Sports One GP2
-OSMO G-Force
-AST GP3


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## PB&J (Aug 28, 2003)

Thanks GP. How about molecular and syntrax?? Their prices are good.


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## gopro (Aug 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by PB&J *_
> Thanks GP. How about molecular and syntrax?? Their prices are good.



Both good companies, absolutley!!


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## ZECH (Aug 28, 2003)

GP, heard any feedback at all on the new GLU-fm??


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## gopro (Aug 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> GP, heard any feedback at all on the new GLU-fm??



Yes, only good things.


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## Twin Peak (Aug 29, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Jim1954 *_
> I was wondering how much Glutamine you should take as a suppliment? I weigh 148, don't know body fat %. My abs are not visible yet, but I think the top portion are getting there.
> Any information would be appreciated.
> 
> Jim



Take it in high doses after you have a very serious burn accident or other major, life threatening trauma.  That is when all the studies show its efficiacy.

Otherwise you are better off saving your money.  The possible exception is for a weight trainer on seriously restricted calories.


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## gopro (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: Re: How much Glutamine?*



> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Take it in high doses after you have a very serious burn accident or other major, life threatening trauma.  That is when all the studies show its efficiacy.
> 
> Otherwise you are better off saving your money.  The possible exception is for a weight trainer on seriously restricted calories.



Totally disagree...but what else is new.


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## Twin Peak (Aug 29, 2003)

Our differing opinions on the value of glutamine are well documented, and need not be rehashed.


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## gopro (Aug 29, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Our differing opinions on the value of glutamine are well documented, and need not be rehashed.



Agreed...I'm sick of it anyway.


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## Jim1954 (Aug 29, 2003)

I just ordered a two month supply, and if I notice good results, then I will keep taking it. I plan on taking 15 grams a day, maybe more.


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## Robboe (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: How much Glutamine?*



> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Totally disagree...but what else is new.



He's right though.


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## gr81 (Aug 29, 2003)

Good read 

Glutamine
Destroying the Dogma, Part 1
by David J. Barr

One of the most frequent supplement questions I get as a strength coach is whether or not athletes should use the amino acid glutamine for either performance enhancement or size gains. 

The topic comes up so much that it almost seems as though glutamine is a "no brainer" supplement just like creatine. In fact, its popularity is such that at least two separate online message boards, as well as numerous magazines, have feature articles on the use of glutamine as a supplement. The dogma of glutamine supplementation had even permeated the SWIS symposium to the extent that the numerous conversations about this amino acid were solely about how much to take, rather than whether or not to take it. 

So, it seems as though everything is pretty cut and dried when it comes to glutamine use??? or is it? While there was some literature-supported speculation as to the potential benefits of glutamine supplementation, there needs to be an updated review of the literature examining the current status of this purported "wonder supplement." In fact, there's quite a bit of information that's been left out of the popular bodybuilding literature that needs to be brought to light. 

But before we get on to that, we should review some of the basics of glutamine.


Glutamine: The Basics

For those of you who are new to the concept of glutamine supplementation, you should know that it's a non-essential amino acid created largely by our muscles. It's also noteworthy that glutamine is the most abundant free amino acid in our bodies, comprising up to 2/3 of the muscle free amino acid pool.(13) This fact, coupled with the idea that muscle is the largest producer of this amino acid, could suggest that supplementation would be beneficial.

One potential problem with this is that glutamine is a non-essential amino acid (meaning that we don't have to consume outside sources containing this amino acid because our bodies can make it on its own), but this is where things get interesting: the use of glutamine by many different cells in our bodies is so great that there may be times when its use exceeds its availability, therefore glutamine has been termed a "conditionally essential" amino acid.(18) 

This means that during times of physical stress the body may actually need glutamine from the diet to maintain proper cellular function. Clearly, activities such as resistance training constitute a physical stress on the body, which is one reason that athletes have been targeted for glutamine supplementation.

Another interesting fact about our muscles and glutamine is the issue of transport. For an amino acid to get into or out of our muscles, it has to be transported by specific carriers. Using these carriers, our muscle takes up amino acids according to demand from protein composition (i.e. what our muscles need the most), BUT amino acid release is NOT according to composition. 

Alanine and glutamine can account for up to 50% of amino acid release from muscle despite accounting for only about 15% of total muscle protein.(31) Obviously, this is a huge discrepancy???which is normally made up for through glutamine production???but as mentioned earlier, during times of physical stress (i.e. exercise), the synthesis of glutamine is hindered. Everyone knows that lacking even one amino acid can hinder muscle growth, which fortifies the theory of glutamine supplementation by athletes.

Now that you're familiar with the basics behind glutamine supplementation, it's time to delve into the literature and pull out some more specific theories as to the beneficial effects of glutamine supplementation.


Glutamine and Muscle Mass

Interest first arose in glutamine as a supplement when it was found that glutamine enrichment elevated levels of protein synthesis in isolated rat muscles.(21) This isn't surprising since it's also been found that muscle protein synthesis levels can be correlated with free glutamine levels.(17) It's also been shown in vitro using rat skeletal muscle cells that glutamine may decrease protein breakdown.(22) 

Additionally, we know that the anabolic/catabolic state of a muscle cell is related to it's hydration status???this simply means that cellular swelling has an anabolic or an anticatabolic effect on the affected cells (including muscle cells). Based on this, it's been found that glutamine supplementation may mediate cell swelling and therefore an anticatabolic effect through either increasing cell swelling or hindering cellular dehydration.(28)

Sure you say, these theories are all well and good in cell cultures or animals, but what about the human studies? Well, studies in humans indicate that glutamine supplementation may improve nitrogen balance in critically ill patients, as well as assist in the prevention of protein synthesis decreases following surgery (a HUGE physical stress) or following a 14-hour fast.(13, 12,24,13) There have even been a couple of studies done on resistance trained subjects (more on that a little later)!


Glutamine and Overtraining

We've all felt the scourge of overtraining: the lethargy, the sickness, and the lack of desire to train. Aside from the horrible feeling associated with overtraining, we also know that the longer we're out of the gym, the longer we go without any anabolic stimulus to our muscles. Based on this, another theory suggesting glutamine supplementation for athletes involves the prevention of overtraining.

Glutamine is used as a fuel source by many cells of our body, including many cells of our immune system. Now if you recall that there are times of stress where the body's production fails to meet its needs for glutamine, you can see that this could negatively affect the immune system. In fact, you may not be surprised to find that blood glutamine levels may be compromised following exercise induced overtraining.(1) 

Surveys of endurance athletes supplementing with glutamine following a marathon race showed lower rates of infection than those who didn't supplement.(8,9) As for the applicability to bodybuilding, one study showed that resistance exercise may induce a small transient (ie short-term) negative effect on some cells of the immune system, although plasma glutamine levels weren't examined.(6)

So now we have theories for glutamine supplementation to increase protein synthesis/inhibit protein breakdown, as well as boost immunity following intense exercise. This sounds great, but we have yet to look at glutamine's potential effect to stimulate glycogen replenishment following exercise. Glutamine infusion has been shown to enhance glycogen stores following cycling exercise twice as much as compared to subjects who infused saline or other amino acids.(27) If this happened after weight training, it could even help with our cellular swelling and have the aforementioned postive effect on protein accretion. 

Another study supports the use of glutamine for enhancing muscle glycogen. Bowtell et al. found that glutamine supplementation following exercise enhanced glycogen resynthesis in muscle just as well as the ingestion of a glucose polymer.(4)

Sadly at this point, many readers have already gone out and bought their kilos of glutamine, and are now reading only to find out how to use the stuff. You may argue, why not? There's plenty of evidence to support the theories presented! This was exactly the thinking when glutamine was introduced to bodybuilders several years ago. In fact, the journal articles reviewed above are the same research papers that can be found time and again, in any outdated article that's trying to sell you on glutamine. But things have recently changed; new studies have been done on animals, and people involved in resistance training, but the results are less than positive.


What the Glutamine Salespeople Don't Want You To Know:

Glutamine and Protein Synthesis ??? The other side of the coin

We've seen the theory that glutamine levels in the blood and muscle may decrease during or following exercise, and that this decrease correlates with reduced levels of protein synthesis. Several studies have addressed whether this relationship between glutamine and protein synthesis was a coincidental or a causal (meaning that one caused the other) relationship. 

The first study compared the abilities of glutamine and the amino acid alanine to stimulate protein synthesis in rats with artificially reduced blood and muscle glutamine levels.(23) As expected, glutamine infusion increased intramuscular glutamine levels, while alanine didn't. Surprisingly, even depleting muscle glutamine levels by 60% had no effect on protein synthesis. What may also surprise you is that restoring blood and muscle glutamine levels to normal had no effect on protein synthesis compared to rats receiving no glutamine treatment! Additionally, even though whole body protein turnover didn't change, alanine stimulated protein synthesis! 

In support of this contention, researchers studied the effect of glutamine supplementation on septic rats. Sepsis is a severely catabolic condition, during which glutamine levels (and protein synthesis) fall. Again, this study showed that despite increasing muscle glutamine levels to even higher than normal, it had no effect on protein synthesis or the catabolic state of the rats.(11) 

Cumulatively, these studies show that decreased or increased levels of glutamine in the muscle has no effect on protein synthesis. 

Another study, performed on people, examined the effect of adding glutamine to an amino acid mixture on muscle protein synthesis .(30) Ultimately, infusion of the original amino acid mixture increased protein synthesis by nearly 50%, but adding glutamine to this mix had no additional effect. This study is particularly relevant because most consumers of glutamine do so following a workout, along with other amino acids (or a whole protein). 

Finally, Wusteman et al., used a drug to reduce muscle protein synthesis, along with muscle glutamine levels, in rats.(29) Much like the Olde Damink et al. study, restoring muscle glutamine levels to normal had no effect on protein synthesis. This study further supports the concept that blood and muscle glutamine levels have no bearing on protein synthesis and protein turnover.


Editor's note: Part 2, which pretty much presents a case for relegating glutamine to the Retired Supplements shelf (except for very specific circumstances) will be posted next week.


David J. Barr, CSCS, MSc. Candidate, is a Varsity Strength and Conditioning Coach at the University of Waterloo.


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## kdwa1 (Aug 30, 2003)

I'm not giving up MY Glutamine.


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## kdwa1 (Aug 30, 2003)

DG,Ivé been using Glu FM for a couple weeks and love the stuff.Very clean and smooth taste.


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## Robboe (Aug 30, 2003)

Oh, well as long as it tastes good then it must be worthwhile.


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## kdwa1 (Aug 30, 2003)

Oh Yea! gives me a great pump too.Definitely feel a volumized and muscluar response.I say it tastes good because so many others are bitter and many people complain.I love Syntrax.


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## Jim1954 (Aug 30, 2003)

Interesting study gr81, but I wonder how accurate it is, 
not to say that it is inaccurate. I'm definitely not the one
to judge the study for flaws.

If Glutamine does not do as it has been claimed to do, 
perhaps it does so psychologically, which wouldn't be a 
bad thing.I wonder if tests were ever done with placebo's
for an extended amount of time? . 

I have heard wonderful things about Creatine, but I'm 
not sure if it did for me,what it has been claimed to do
for others. 

Had now idea the debate about Glutamine even 
existed, time and more study will some day bring 
out something solid on the subject.
In the mean time, I'm going to start using it.


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## gr81 (Aug 30, 2003)

In my personal experience I have used it for long periods of time, and I have gone without it for periods of time as well and if you ask me it is not a necessity for you weight lifting. I don' t really believe that it has bodybuilding benefits so to speak, it certainly isn't going to add slabs of muscle to your physique. Spend your money on something else like food. Jim, you can go look at the specifics of the study your self at t-mag.com


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## Jim1954 (Aug 31, 2003)

gr81,

I have 1000grams on the way, and will use it up.
I'll see if it has a positive effect or not.

I will check out t-mag.


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## gr81 (Sep 3, 2003)

great site


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## gopro (Sep 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> Oh, well as long as it tastes good then it must be worthwhile.



Is there a better reason to use a supplement?


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## hardasnails1973 (Sep 4, 2003)

benefits i have seen peronally
1. increased immunity to colds
2 less soreness after workout 
3 on lower carbs better pump then with out 
4 preservation of lean body mass

majority of my observation is that it is not an anabolic supplement but rather an anticatabolic one. i think people are mislead that it will promote muscle gains.


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## ZECH (Sep 4, 2003)

Warning: You can debate this but smart ass remarks or flames will be deleted. Thread after thread on glutamine have been closed due to flaming. If you disagree with it, state your reason and leave it be. We want to set a positive tone for new members coming to the board!


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## Twin Peak (Sep 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Our differing opinions on the value of glutamine are well documented, and need not be rehashed.



As I said previously.


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## gopro (Sep 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> As I said previously.



Why did you repost this TP?


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## gopro (Sep 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by hardasnails1973 *_
> benefits i have seen peronally
> 1. increased immunity to colds
> 2 less soreness after workout
> ...



I agree with all of this. And I add that I have personally/professionally observed its value in the offseason as well (but I won't go into it).

By the way...hardasnails has one of the best physiques you will ever see and is incredibly knowledgable in all aspects of bodybuilding.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Why did you repost this TP?



In response to DG's "warning".  It was clear he was referring to our threads "discussing" the topic, which you closed.

Although to this day, I don't believe I have called anyone a name on this forum.

Well, except maybe TCD.


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## gopro (Sep 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> In response to DG's "warning".  It was clear he was referring to our threads "discussing" the topic, which you closed.
> 
> Although to this day, I don't believe I have called anyone a name on this forum.
> ...



DG was referring to more than just OUR threads!


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## ZECH (Sep 4, 2003)

Yes I was. I was looking for some good glutamine threads yesterday to post in a sticky, and there were tons that had been closed because of flaming. Couldn't even find one decent glutamine thread that was not closed. What does this look like for new memebers (that we are a bunch of assholes?)


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## gopro (Sep 4, 2003)

Simple solution: stop arguing with me


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## gr81 (Sep 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by hardasnails1973 *_
> benefits i have seen peronally
> 1. increased immunity to colds
> 2 less soreness after workout
> ...




Agreed HAN, it is important that people understand that.


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## Tank316 (Sep 4, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by hardasnails1973 *_
> benefits i have seen peronally
> 1. increased immunity to colds
> 2 less soreness after workout
> ...


    great advice


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## gopro (Sep 5, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: How much Glutamine?*



> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> He's right though.



Ooops, never saw this! Gotta respond now!

Oh no he's not, but what else is new...LOL.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Our differing opinions on the value of glutamine are well documented, and need not be rehashed.



Bump.


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## gopro (Sep 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Bump.



See DG...Twin and I are behaving ourselves this time


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## Twin Peak (Sep 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> See DG...Twin and I are behaving ourselves this time



Actually, you keep baiting me.  I won't bite.


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## Arnold (Sep 5, 2003)

why don't the two of you just meet up somewhere and fight, then this crap can be over with.


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## Twin Peak (Sep 5, 2003)

Royal Rumble at the O?

GP would have to tight his right arm behind his back though, since mine is useless.


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## gopro (Sep 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Actually, you keep baiting me.  I won't bite.



Nahhh, just playing, thats all...


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## gopro (Sep 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> You couldn't argue your way out of a paperbag without being bitchslapped.



Hmmm, never been slapped...prefer plastic to paper...and the only bitch I know is you...

...besides I don't bother arguing with people that are smaller than me.


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## gopro (Sep 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Royal Rumble at the O?
> 
> GP would have to tight his right arm behind his back though, since mine is useless.



Noooo... wouldn't want to have to break TPs other arm...he needs at least one to type with


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## Twin Peak (Sep 5, 2003)

That's true, I do.


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## gopro (Sep 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> That's true, I do.



LOL


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## Twin Peak (Sep 5, 2003)

I don't type well with my face.


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## gopro (Sep 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> I don't type well with my face.



I'll spare your feet...maybe you can use those...


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## bobbymac10 (May 12, 2004)

should glutamine be taken on an empty stomach or does it matter?


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## gopro (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by bobbymac10 *_
> should glutamine be taken on an empty stomach or does it matter?



If its the L-form, then yes...if its peptides, then no.


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## AV92 (Jun 8, 2004)

*Here is what I do not understand*

I use creatine and I also use Grow Protein for post workouts. Now I was advised to use Glutamin. Now I don't mind using this providing it has properties that I can benefit from. I mean, how much recover suppliments can the body absorb??  Does creatine and Protein not provide the essential nutrients that the muscle needs to recover?? So my question is, How much more will Glutamin do for me???


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## gopro (Jun 8, 2004)

AV92 said:
			
		

> I use creatine and I also use Grow Protein for post workouts. Now I was advised to use Glutamin. Now I don't mind using this providing it has properties that I can benefit from. I mean, how much recover suppliments can the body absorb?? Does creatine and Protein not provide the essential nutrients that the muscle needs to recover?? So my question is, How much more will Glutamin do for me???


Its impossible to put a percentage on it. Each little thing you do to improve your overall nutritional program will slowly add up to more gains later on.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 8, 2004)

bobbymac10 said:
			
		

> should glutamine be taken on an empty stomach or does it matter?


It doesn't matter, since either way its a waste.


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## gopro (Jun 9, 2004)

Twin Peak said:
			
		

> It doesn't matter, since either way its a waste.


A waste only to lawyers, but those that TRULY have a clue KNOW the power of glutamine...but hey, you're just a part timer so how could you know any better.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 9, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> A waste only to lawyers, but those that TRULY have a clue KNOW the power of glutamine...but hey, you're just a part timer so how could you know any better.


Good point.


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## gopro (Jun 9, 2004)

Twin Peak said:
			
		

> Good point.


LOL.


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## PreMier (Jun 9, 2004)

http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=25&t=9073&st=0

I think Layne makes some GREAT points in this thread.  Glutamine is useless IMO.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 9, 2004)

PreMier said:
			
		

> http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=25&t=9073&st=0
> 
> I think Layne makes some GREAT points in this thread. Glutamine is useless IMO.


Cant you reed, jackass, itz on'y uselis fo' us ignant lawyers.


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## PreMier (Jun 9, 2004)

I s'pose I should be an ignant lawyer 'din.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 9, 2004)

Muss b.


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## gopro (Jun 9, 2004)

Great points are so wonderful but too bad he's not correct...well, not entirely, b/c there are some who don't get much out of glutamine (but thats mostly b/c they are not using it enough...not using it right...or are expecting PH like gains which is not what every supplement is about).

Now, I will say once and for all (for the benefit of those that are unsure about glutamine)...I have been in this industry for 17 f-ing years and have trained hundreds and hundreds of people...athletes of all sports, bodybuilders, weekend warriors, the elderly, pregnant women, teens, etc...and with almost all of them I have used glutamine supplementation and have recorded and seen the positive results and the differences when they did not use it.

I have spent half of my life living for physique transformation and health and fitness, and just the way that TP can speak about the law I can speak about fitness/nutrition and all that is related.

Glutamine is very useful, and works very very well. It is one of our most valuable supplements. End of story.


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## PreMier (Jun 9, 2004)

What exactly does it do thats so useful/makes it so valuable? I never said, or thought that it was a mass gainer


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## gr81 (Jun 9, 2004)

> Glutamine is very useful, and works very very well. It is one of our most valuable supplements. End of story.


its only valuable b/c we pay so much for it! lol.. value is subjective


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## Arnold (Jun 9, 2004)

*I thought this was a good article on Glutamine, draw your own conclusions.*

*Glutamine Supplementation*
By David Tolson

http://www.bulknutrition.com/?articleID=61


L-glutamine is the most abundant free amino acid in the body and also the most abundant amino acid the bloodstream. Originally considered to be nonessential because it can be readily synthesized by the enzyme glutamine synthetase, it has been established that glutamine can become essential under states of severe illness or injury, in which glutamine stores can become depleted [7, 12]. Glutamine is a precursor to glucose and many peptides, proteins, and nucleotides, and functions as an energy substrate for most cells [1, 8, 12]. Some areas where glutamine plays particularly important roles are the brain, immune system, skeletal muscle, and GI tract. In the immune system, glutamine is used as a metabolic fuel by fibroblasts, lymphocytes, and macrophages, and is also used for nucleotide synthesis. Skeletal muscle is the primary storage site for glutamine, and also the primary source of glutamine for other tissues. The GI tract uses glutamine as a fuel source, and uses more glutamine than any other area of the body.

The primary focus of research on the utility of supplemental L-glutamine has focused on situations of severe metabolic stress [1]. Glutamine has been researched in a wide variety of illnesses, including cancer, heart disease, and AIDS [3, 6]. Multiple meta-analyses have found that glutamine has many beneficial effects in critically ill patients, and glutamine may reduce mortality rates in long-term Intensive Care Unit patients by as much as 20% [1, 2]. Glutamine functions through multiple mechanisms of action, such as improving gastrointestinal tract health and immune health, acting as a precursor to glutathione, and decreasing ammonia buildup in the liver [1]. Along with HMB and arginine, glutamine helps decrease lean tissue wasting in cancer and AIDS patients, and glutamine prevents muscle protein breakdown from dexamethasone, a synthetic glucocortcoid [6, 11]. It is because of these benefits in catabolic states that it is postulated that glutamine supplementation would be beneficial for those engaged in intense exercise, an issue which is quite controversial.

It has been found in many studies that prolonged, exhaustive exercise causes a decrease in plasma glutamine levels. However, even after running a marathon, glutamine levels are only low for a period of 6-9 hours [9]. One study examined the glutamine levels in various types of athletes and found that some athletes, such as powerlifters, had particularly low plasma glutamine [9]. Overtraining has also been associated with a larger decrease in glutamine levels [9, 16]. In turn, it has been proposed that this decline can have a variety of negative effects that may be corrected with supplemental glutamine. Some of the proposed benefits of glutamine supplementation for athletes include increased immune function, increased protein synthesis, and increased rate of glycogen synthesis.

A central issue in the debate over whether glutamine supplements are beneficial is whether or not they actually increase levels of glutamine in the bloodstream. Most of the studies in states of critical illness utilize IV glutamine, and are therefore inapplicable. When glutamine is orally administered, a significant portion of it is taken up by the gut, where it is primarily oxidized, but also used to form glucose and for other purposes [22]. After ingestion of L-glutamine, about 50-75% of it is used by the gut depending on circumstances [9, 13, 14]. The amount that is extracted by the gut appears to be inversely correlated with dose ??? as more glutamine is administered, relatively less is taken up by the gut [14]. Despite the amount that doesn't make it to the bloodstream, many studies have found that orally administered L-glutamine still significantly raises plasma glutamine levels. For example, one study found that 5 g of orally administered glutamine doubled plasma glutamine within 30 minutes in healthy humans [16]. On the other hand, protein-bound glutamine (such as glutamine from casein or carob protein) has failed to significantly increase plasma glutamine in both human and animal studies where free L-glutamine was effective [11, 20]. When this information is put together, it would seem a high dose (at least 5-10 g) of free-form L-glutamine is the most effective way to increase levels of glutamine in the bloodstream.

Although L-glutamine supplements can significantly increase plasma glutamine, this does not necessarily equate to an increase in exercise performance or recovery ability. Multiple studies have been done, and none have yet shown that glutamine significantly improves exercise performance. In one study, 31 subjects were administered ~45 g of glutamine or placebo (maltodextrin) daily for six weeks along with resistance training. Compared to the placebo group, the glutamine group had slight improvements in their one rep maximum for squat and bench press and knee extension peak torque, as well as increased lean tissue mass and decreased markers of protein breakdown, but none of the differences were statistically significant [18]. Another study found that acute ingestion of glutamine did not improve weightlifting performance [21], but only six subjects were used, and given that the proposed mechanisms of action for glutamine are recovery-related, one would not expect a difference after acute ingestion in the first place. It seems that if glutamine does make a difference in exercise performance, it is a small one, especially at practical doses. 

Beyond the studies that directly assess performance, there are also a number of studies on the effects glutamine has on other variables. Some researchers argue that the fall in glutamine levels after exhausting exercise may be related to suppression of the immune system. One investigation of 14 studies found that the self-reported incidence of illness in marathon runners was 32% lower in subjects who had consumed glutamine [9]. However, the mechanism for this is unknown, as most studies have found that glutamine fails to effect exercise-related changes in immune parameters [7, 9, 15]. Two studies have found that glutamine slightly blunts the postexercise increase in circulating neutrophils, but it is unknown whether this is clinically significant [9, 15]. One study also found that among certain marathon runners, glutamine speeded the restoration of circulating lymphocytes [9]. The differences in findings is probably related to differences in study design. It could be that glutamine does not significantly alter the magnitude of postexercise immune changes, but does speed the rate of recovery, especially in the case of extremely taxing exercise such as marathon running.

Another area in which glutamine has been explored is glycogen resynthesis. In one study, glutamine increased postexercise muscle glycogen concentration compared to alanine plus glycine providing an equal amount of calories. It has been argued that glutamine increases the activity of hepatic glycogen synthase, based on in vitro studies [5]. However, it could also be that glutamine is more readily converted to glucose than other amino acids. Either way, carbohydrates are still about three times as effective at promoting glycogen synthesis [19], and when glutamine was added to a glucose polymer drink it did not further promote muscle glycogen storage, although it appeared to increase liver glycogen storage [5]. Another study found glutamine alone did not effect glycogen resynthesis after glycogen depleting exercise [18], so the effect of glutamine in this area is once again controversial.

A final contention made by glutamine advocates is that it increases protein synthesis. This is based primarily on in vitro experiments, which have found that glutamine stimulates protein synthesis and inhibits protein breakdown [14]. However, in vivo, it appears that supplemental L-glutamine does not affect protein synthesis or increase glutamine levels in muscle tissue in healthy humans, even after IV administration [14, 17]. Increased glutamine availability does increase glutamine flux in muscle tissue (i.e., both uptake and outflow are increased but tissue levels are not changed), but this may limit transport mechanisms for other amino acids [17]. These studies do not rule out the potential for a small effect on protein synthesis of supplemental L-glutamine combined with an exercise program, but do indicate that it is not likely to make a significant difference.

Finally, there are a number of facts that can make glutamine supplementation less appealing. To maintain continually elevated levels of glutamine, one would have to supplement at least every two hours [16]. Glutamine administration also inhibits de novo synthesis of the amino acid in humans, which may make long-term supplementation less effective [20]. In healthy individuals, supplemental glutamine may decrease glutathione levels in some tissues by causing negative feedback [10]. Also, glutamine decreases vascular nitric oxide (NO) production [4]. There is also some concern that the metabolic by-products of glutamine may be toxic in large amounts [18]. However, there have been few reports of adverse events in clinical trials, even with large amounts of glutamine [1, 18].

In conclusion, few studies have demonstrated any sort of conclusive benefit from L-glutamine supplementation in athletes, although the existing evidence does support a small benefit. The most promising effect is a reduced incidence of infection after exhausting exercise, and in this case 5-10 g preworkout and/or postworkout may be effective. It may be especially useful during times of overtraining or high stress, such as on a diet, but this is only in theory. There is little evidence for a direct anabolic or performance enhancing effect of glutamine.


References:

1. Curr Opin Crit Care. 2003 Aug;9(4):279-85. Glutamine and acute illness. Wernerman J.​

2. Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2003 Mar;6(2):217-22. Role of L-glutamine in critical illness: new insights. Kelly D, Wischmeyer PE.

3. Nutrition. 2002 Feb;18(2):123-6. Is glutamine beneficial in ischemic heart disease? Khogali SE, Pringle SD, Weryk BV, Rennie MJ.

4. Clin Nutr. 1998 Feb;17(1):11-4. Dietary glutamine supplementation reduces plasma nitrate levels in rats. Houdijk AP, Visser JJ, Rijnsburger ER, Teerlink T, van Leeuwen PA.

5. J Appl Physiol. 1999 Jun;86(6):1770-7. Effect of oral glutamine on whole body carbohydrate storage during recovery from exhaustive exercise. Bowtell JL, Gelly K, Jackman ML, Patel A, Simeoni M, Rennie MJ.

6. Am J Surg. 2002 Apr;183(4):471-9. Reversal of cancer-related wasting using oral supplementation with a combination of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate, arginine, and glutamine. May PE, Barber A, D'Olimpio JT, Hourihane A, Abumrad NN.

7. Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2002 Jan;5(1):69-75. Glutamine: clinical applications and mechanisms of action. Neu J, DeMarco V, Li N.

8. Int J Biochem Cell Biol. 2002 May;34(5):439-58. Glutamine and its relationship with intracellular redox status, oxidative stress and cell proliferation/death. Mates JM, Perez-Gomez C, Nunez de Castro I, Asenjo M, Marquez J.

9. Nutrition. 2002 May;18(5):371-5. Can glutamine modify the apparent immunodepression observed after prolonged, exhaustive exercise? Castell LM.

10. Nutrition. 2002 May;18(5):367-70. Impact of oral L-glutamine on glutathione, glutamine, and glutamate blood levels in volunteers. Valencia E, Marin A, Hardy G.

11. Nutrition. 2001 Jan;17(1):35-40. Effect of glutamine supplementation of the diet on tissue protein synthesis rate of glucocorticoid-treated rats. Boza JJ, Turini M, Moennoz D, Montigon F, Vuichoud J, Gueissaz N, Gremaud G, Pouteau E, Piguet-Welsch C, Finot PA, Ballevre O.

12. Altern Med Rev. 1999 Aug;4(4):239-48. Therapeutic considerations of L-glutamine: a review of the literature. Miller AL.

13. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Apr;280(4):E669-75. Glutamine supplementation promotes anaplerosis but not oxidative energy delivery in human skeletal muscle. Bruce M, Constantin-Teodosiu D, Greenhaff PL, Boobis LH, Williams C, Bowtell JL.

14. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Feb;280(2):E323-33. Whole body and skeletal muscle glutamine metabolism in healthy subjects. Mittendorfer B, Volpi E, Wolfe RR.

15. Am J Physiol Cell Physiol. 2001 Oct;281(4):C1259-65. Effect of glutamine supplementation on exercise-induced changes in lymphocyte function. Krzywkowski K, Petersen EW, Ostrowski K, Kristensen JH, Boza J, Pedersen BK.

16. Amino Acids. 2001;20(1):49-61. The relation between glutamine and the immunodepression observed in exercise. Castell LM, Newsholme EA.

17. Clin Physiol. 2001 Jul;21(4):478-89. The effect of glutamine on protein balance and amino acid flux across arm and leg tissues in healthy volunteers. Svanberg E, Moller-Loswick AC, Matthews DE, Korner U, Lundholm K.

18. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2001 Dec;86(2):142-9. Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T.

19. J Nutr. 2001 Sep;131(9 Suppl):2488S-90S; discussion 2496S-7S. Interaction between glutamine availability and metabolism of glycogen, tricarboxylic acid cycle intermediates and glutathione. Rennie MJ, Bowtell JL, Bruce M, Khogali SE.

19. J Nutr. 2001 Sep;131(9 Suppl):2556S-61S. Assessment of the safety of glutamine and other amino acids. Garlick PJ.

20. Nutrition. 2000 Nov-Dec;16(11-12):1037-42. Plasma glutamine response to enteral administration of glutamine in human volunteers (free glutamine versus protein-bound glutamine). Boza JJ, Maire J, Bovetto L, Ballevre O.

21. J Strength Cond Res. 2002 Feb;16(1):157-60. The effects of high-dose glutamine ingestion on weightlifting performance. Antonio J, Sanders MS, Kalman D, Woodgate D, Street C.

22. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2000 Apr;278(4):E593-602. Oxidation of glutamine by the splanchnic bed in humans. Haisch M, Fukagawa NK, Matthews DE.


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## PreMier (Jun 9, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> *Glutamine Supplementation*
> By David Tolson
> 
> http://www.bulknutrition.com/?articleID=61
> ...


If it doesnt increase mass, doesnt increase recovery ability... what does it do? Thats what I thought, it drains your wallet!


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## Arnold (Jun 9, 2004)

Like I said draw your own conclusions...I do think it's worth using on a cutting diet if nothing else. 

Personally I use 5 grams in my whey protein shake p/w. I used to use three 5 gram servings every day, AM, p/w and PM, but I stopped mainly cause I am not currently dieting, and I got sick of the nasty taste in my shakes!


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## PreMier (Jun 9, 2004)

Why do you think it is worth using on a cutting diet?

Just curious as to your reasoning.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 10, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> I have spent half of my life living for physique transformation and health and fitness, and just the way that TP can speak about the law I can speak about fitness/nutrition and all that is related.


Actually, I can "speak about [certain aspects of] the law" because I am knowledgable about the law.  Sure I have decent credentials (cum laude grad from Duke Law School, practicing for 6+ years at top worldwide law firms), but it is not these credentials that allow me to speak with authority on certain legal topics.

Rather, I can do so because (on those legal topics I chose to speak) I have looked into the various issues at play, have critically analyzed the situation, have digested the pertinent information, and have formed reasonable and logical opinions about those issues.

It helps that I never state something without citing to a relevant case or statute, and/or without supplying my full reasoning and logic so that the reader can understand my comments and assess for themselves the veracity of my statements, or the logic behind my arguments.

Not once have I said, "I know, because I am a lawyer."

Interestingly enough, having knowledge of the law, and having knowledge of nutrition, training, and supplementation are not mutually exclusive.

Indeed, I have more experience in background in the practical use of nutrition, training, and supplementation than I do of the law.  The fact that I was over-fat my entire life, and had a 50 inch waist at 19, is only the beginning of this experience, and I think that it is not necessary to provide a laundry list of my credentials here.

Suffice it to say that despite my extensive and in depth practical experience in these matters, while I too "can *speak* about fitness/nutrition and *all* that is related", I know enough to know that I do have limits and so I chose _only_ to speak about those aspects of fitness, nutrition, and supplementation on which I can speak accurately.


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## Pepper (Jun 10, 2004)

TP? Duke?


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## gopro (Jun 10, 2004)

Glutamine has helped me increase muscle mass.
Glutamine has helped me retain mass during a diet.
Glutamine does increase my recovery ability.
Glutamine does increase my immune system.
Glutamine does decrease my level of muscle soreness after intense training.

And has had similar effects in hundreds of clients of mine.

If you find it does not do any of this for you, don't use it. 

There are studies on almost every single dietary supplement that BOTH proves AND disproves its efficacy, so if you go by science you can go either way depending on whose study you read.

Debate this amongst yourselves if you wish. I will continue to use glutamine to my advantage every day...personally and with those I train. I know what it can do, and that's all that matters to me really.

For the rest of you, you can listen to me (and others that believe in glutamine), or to everyone else. The choice remains your until the FDA says otherwise.


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## topolo (Jun 10, 2004)

Twin Peak said:
			
		

> Actually, I can "speak about [certain aspects of] the law" because I am knowledgable about the law. Sure I have decent credentials (cum laude grad from Duke Law School, practicing for 6+ years at top worldwide law firms), but it is not these credentials that allow me to speak with authority on certain legal topics.
> 
> Rather, I can do so because (on those legal topics I chose to speak) I have looked into the various issues at play, have critically analyzed the situation, have digested the pertinent information, and have formed reasonable and logical opinions about those issues.
> 
> ...


 
TP............I object!! This assumes facts not in evidence.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 10, 2004)

And so does the use of glutamine.


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## topolo (Jun 10, 2004)

lmao!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Arnold (Jun 10, 2004)

TP I think you should file a class action law suit (I think that is the right terminology) against all companies that sell glutamine!


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## topolo (Jun 10, 2004)

I agree..............Tp lets meet on this *Ex Parte.*


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## Lord_of_the_GYM (Jun 29, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> If its the L-form, then yes...if its peptides, then no.


Just wondering why does it matter on taking the L-form on an empty stomach?


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## gopro (Jun 29, 2004)

Lord_of_the_GYM said:
			
		

> Just wondering why does it matter on taking the L-form on an empty stomach?


The L form will not be properly absorbed in the presence of other proteins.


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## Lord_of_the_GYM (Jun 30, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> The L form will not be properly absorbed in the presence of other proteins.


Wait a min...didn't you say that L form should not be consumes over an empty stomach...so i shuld take it after a meal or something then?


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## gopro (Jun 30, 2004)

Lord_of_the_GYM said:
			
		

> Wait a min...didn't you say that L form should not be consumes over an empty stomach...so i shuld take it after a meal or something then?


You are confusing what I said. Here:

glutamine peptides: with or without food
L-glutamine: empty stomach only


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## Lord_of_the_GYM (Jun 30, 2004)

oooh ... coo coo everythings crystal now ... thanks man


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## ProBodyFitness (Jun 30, 2004)

10 grams pre-workout, and 10 grams post workout, is my 0.02 cents


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## gopro (Jun 30, 2004)

Lord_of_the_GYM said:
			
		

> oooh ... coo coo everythings crystal now ... thanks man


WORD!


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## julio (Jul 1, 2004)

how about with coffee first thing in the morning?


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## gopro (Jul 2, 2004)

julio said:
			
		

> how about with coffee first thing in the morning?


That should be ok.


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## julio (Jul 2, 2004)

thanks    it taste alot better


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