# To the trainers



## Double D (May 15, 2007)

To name a few:
P, Duncan, CP, Dale, Pony Boy, Akira (About left you out brother), etc.....

I am curious do you guys train any bodybuilders? If so do they do split routines (Meaning chest one day and back the next, etc....)? If so is there any run of the mill guidline you go by? Like X-amount of set for each bodypart? Of course the loading is always going to be different, but is there some type of guideline for it? Hope I am making sense.


----------



## P-funk (May 15, 2007)

day 1- upper horizontal + triceps
off
day 2- lower
off
day 3- upper vertical + biceps
off
off
or


day 1- upper
day 2- lower
day 3- off
day 4- upper
day 5- lower
day 6+7= off


----------



## Double D (May 15, 2007)

Never have any of your clients in bodypart splits? I am trying to make the most sense out of this as I can. I spoke with a good friend today who has been a trainer for about 5 years or so. I dont agree with alot of things he does, he brought up all of this to me today.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (May 15, 2007)

I do something similar to funk, although I don't have any bodybuilder clients (except me and my brother, who use a similar split)


----------



## P-funk (May 15, 2007)

Double D said:


> Never have any of your clients in bodypart splits? I am trying to make the most sense out of this as I can. I spoke with a good friend today who has been a trainer for about 5 years or so. I dont agree with alot of things he does, he brought up all of this to me today.



Nope, for a few reasons:

1) Why waste an entire day to such small muscle groups as arms and shoulders?

2) Unless you are charging $20 a session, who has the money to train 5 days a week with you?

3) Unless the person is hitting the juice, do you really think that someone can optimally recover from 5 training days a week (all high intensity presumably) while in a caloric deficit?


----------



## Duncans Donuts (May 15, 2007)

I started doing "movement" splits about 2 months ago and am very satisfied.  The lack of overlap gives me more time to recover "specifically" and although I'm not stronger in some exercises because of fatigue (i.e. military press weakened because of triceps), my progress is just as good if not better.

I used to do body splits and found them much, much more draining.  And my intensity level has gone up recently, so I am sold on them.  I train my clients in a similar fashion.


----------



## Double D (May 15, 2007)

Good points. Especially the first one!


----------



## Double D (May 15, 2007)

Thanks a bunch. If anyone else does anything different I would like to know. IMO, I always thought just as long as the variables are geared torwards hypertrophy and your exercises were structured to get the most out of each muscle group you should still attain the same goal. 

Besdies that I have noticed I am much weaker whenever I train bodyparts.


----------



## P-funk (May 15, 2007)

I just don't believe in the body part split because I don't see the body as working in that fashion.

Regardless of what you are training for, the muscles still work in the same way!  You have to use a wholistic approach.

I train my clients like I train myself.  We use total body workouts or some sort of upper/lower derivation and things workout well.

BB'ers are trying to lose fat for a contest.  Losing fat means you need to expend energy.  What has more mechanical work.....3 sets of DB curls or 3 sets of chin ups?  Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.


----------



## P-funk (May 15, 2007)

Double D said:


> Thanks a bunch. If anyone else does anything different I would like to know. IMO, I always thought just as long as the variables are geared torwards hypertrophy and your exercises were structured to get the most out of each muscle group you should still attain the same goal.
> 
> Besdies that I have noticed I am much weaker whenever I train bodyparts.



get away from the idea of gearing things towards hypertrophy rep ranges.  Work on developing both tension work and mechanical work.  BB'ers need programming just like everyone else.


----------



## Double D (May 15, 2007)

Yeah that does make more sense.


----------



## Double D (May 15, 2007)

I want to be online whenever you 2 are online all the time. Atleast then I can feel educated from time to time.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (May 15, 2007)

Good judgment comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgment.

You have the right mind-set.  You are doing your best to understand all of the unbelievably complicated variables involved in this and how to apply them specifically.  As you get some experience with clients you will steadily come to a more thorough level of understanding.  I wish you worked at my gym - as far as any reasonable basis of evaluating a quality trainer goes, you would be in the top 3 out of 30.  I can say that because very, very many of the people I work with don't even track the progress of their clients, much less workout with them "progressively".  

You are on the right path man.


----------



## Double D (May 15, 2007)

Appreiciate it. I know the guys to listen to and I am chompin at the bit to learn. I was like alot of guys for 2 long who spent their time buying bb'ing mags and reading into the bs for to long! I came here and I got hit in the face with reality. In about a month I will take my NASM test and pass it easily. I took the practice test and got a 89. It was pretty easy, so I should be alright. But I know thats just soemthing to get my foot in the door. Theres some good info in there, but some not so good info as well. You are right on I just got to get some experience and then everything else will work itself out!


----------



## NordicNacho (May 16, 2007)

P-funk said:


> I just don't believe in the body part split because I don't see the body as working in that fashion.
> 
> Regardless of what you are training for, the muscles still work in the same way!  You have to use a wholistic approach.
> 
> ...




What about 3 sets of DB curls in the squat rack?  Never thought of that?  Thats what I thought


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

NordicNacho said:


> What about 3 sets of DB curls in the squat rack?  Never thought of that?  Thats what I thought



that is a good question.  I would say because the curls are being done in the squat rack, they probably are going to burn more calories than normal curls done out of the squat rack.


----------



## ponyboy (May 16, 2007)

I don't really train bodybuilders anymore but when I did I followed generally the same principles as Patrick.  What I tend to do now with people who work out seriously with weights is find out their lagging areas and I'll work on that with them to up the intensity.  Mostly it tends to be legs because nobody likes training legs on their own.   

However the majority of my time is spent with injury rehab, sports specific stuff and corrective exercise.   

And really, if you want those bicep curls to burn the most calories, you have to do them in a POWER rack.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (May 16, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> I don't really train bodybuilders anymore but when I did I followed generally the same principles as Patrick.  What I tend to do now with people who work out seriously with weights is find out their lagging areas and I'll work on that with them to up the intensity.  Mostly it tends to be legs because nobody likes training legs on their own.
> 
> However the majority of my time is spent with injury rehab, sports specific stuff and corrective exercise.
> 
> And really, if you want those bicep curls to burn the most calories, you have to do them in a POWER rack.



you guys are dumb. the best curl can only be performed on a smith machine.  the fixed range of motion requires you to move the entire machine in an arc, and the weight of the machine is not evenly distributed so it requires the so called "super-balance ancillary muscles" to come into play.


----------



## Leatherface (May 16, 2007)

> day 1- upper horizontal + triceps
> off
> day 2- lower
> off
> ...



So does this mean lower body pull and lower body push is done in one workout, once a week P-Funk?  Squats and Deadlifts same workout?

Thanks


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

Yes that is what is meant. I know personally I do SLDL's with my squats and have no problem doing so. 

PB-Appreciate it buddy, that really helps out. 

Fellas what kinds of guys do you have as trainers in your gyms? Alot of the trainers I have talked to dont seem to know jack shit. They got a cert, but it seems like me thats as far as it goes! They got their clients in and out in a matter of 20-30 minutes and they seem to do very little with them. I can see doing something like this with the older population, but this one guy in particular is about 23 years old. I saw him do strictly chest and he was out. The fuckin guy didnt have him warmup other than 1 light bench set and there was no stretch at the end. Of course some clients should be able to do this on their own after a while, but this guy was a fairly new client I was told. Why the fuck do lazy ass people get away with this for?


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

Leatherface said:


> So does this mean lower body pull and lower body push is done in one workout, once a week P-Funk?  Squats and Deadlifts same workout?
> 
> Thanks



yes, but I wouldn't do heavy squats and heavy deadlifts in the same day.  I also don't back squat and pull from the floor in the same workout.  It might be focus on squatting and do some sort of DL derivative (rack pull, RDL, DB RDL, 1-leg RDL, 45 degree hyper bench, etc..).


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

Double D said:


> Yes that is what is meant. I know personally I do SLDL's with my squats and have no problem doing so.
> 
> PB-Appreciate it buddy, that really helps out.
> 
> Fellas what kinds of guys do you have as trainers in your gyms? Alot of the trainers I have talked to dont seem to know jack shit. They got a cert, but it seems like me thats as far as it goes! They got their clients in and out in a matter of 20-30 minutes and they seem to do very little with them. I can see doing something like this with the older population, but this one guy in particular is about 23 years old. I saw him do strictly chest and he was out. The fuckin guy didnt have him warmup other than 1 light bench set and there was no stretch at the end. Of course some clients should be able to do this on their own after a while, but this guy was a fairly new client I was told. Why the fuck do lazy ass people get away with this for?




Because most people aren't interested in being a trainer as a profession.  It is just like any other day job to them.  That and most people are just stupid and never learn past the shit they learn for their crappy certification (if they even really learned that at all)!  It is the main reason why this industry is a joke and why I wont call myself a personal trainer.

30min. workouts are okay.  I have people that do 30min. sessions.  I don't mind it.  They show up early to warm up, we train and then they stay after to do their energy system work that I have written out and stretch.  It is affordable and it is a quick session.  But, it sounds like that trainer is a moron.

Right now, at my facility I am the one in charge of traininer, the minimum qualifications to work here are a BS in an fitness related field (health science, sports med., exercise phys., exercise sci., nutrition, etc..) and CSCS.  You also have to have some pretty extensive experience.  The min. qualifications for the Physical Therapists here is a Doctorate in Physical therapy (DPT) and CSCS.


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

Nice P! Atleast the people that come there know they are in good hands. I want to know everything! I know its not possible, but I am so fuckin eager. 

Ya that trainer is definitly a joke. I could tell just talking with him. Hell as much as I have learned simply studying one cert helps me to trump his knowlege out of the water. He has 3 certs: ACE, ISSA, and another I dont even remember. From what I know the ISSA one isnt completly horrible, but the ACE one is a joke at best.


----------



## Stewart14 (May 16, 2007)

Double D said:


> Nice P! Atleast the people that come there know they are in good hands. I want to know everything! I know its not possible, but I am so fuckin eager.
> 
> Ya that trainer is definitly a joke. I could tell just talking with him. Hell as much as I have learned simply studying one cert helps me to trump his knowlege out of the water. He has 3 certs: ACE, ISSA, and another I dont even remember. From what I know the ISSA one isnt completly horrible, but the ACE one is a joke at best.



I have no clue if this is the case, but I know as a computer guy, that the more certs you have, the more marketable you are regardless of your level of knowledge, which really sucks.  I mean, there is the MCSE, then you can get MCPs on every Microsoft product, Network +, etc....and I am sure all things being equal, if I go for a job with less certs than someone else and similar experience, you know who gets the job.

I think if I choose to go the PT route, I would go for one of the big certs, NSCA or NASM, and then go for a couple of the lesser ones like ACE and ISSA, just to make myself more marketable to get my foot in the door


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

I know some places pay you more for the more certs you got. I was thinking Duncan works somewhere like that (or did), I cannot recall.


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

why bother going for the lesser ones?  they are a waste of time and money.


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

And to my knowldge ISSA is just as much as the NASM?


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

ISSA is rubbish IMO.

There are three certs IMO:

NSCA
ACSM
NASM (which I still think is a little lame but seems to be pretty respected)

The top to are the most legit as far as I (and most) am concerned.


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

Dont one of those have to hold a degree before you can take it?


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

NSCA-CPT you don't.

CSCS and everything from ACSM you have to have a degree for.


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

Then my next one will be the NSCA cert. I assume they got their own template they try to push on you just as NASM does?


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

Not that the templates are bad, they imo seem to be good for someone who doesnt have a clue.


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

they have a whole section on programming, yes.  it has more science and you have to go to actually sit for the test and you have to take a video test where you watch video of people doing things and put down what is wrong or what needs to be corrected.  The test is broken into two parts...one part on exercise science/phys. and another part on program design and practical application.

I don't know the pass rate for the NSCA-CPT, but the pass rate for the CSCS and the ACSM exams is somewhere around 50%.


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

Awww.....well that seems much more tough. No wonder not to many people try to do those. I have my eye on that one in this case. As I have said many times I want to be the best I can and if thats just another stepping stone then so be it.


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

yes, they are harder, but you learn more and the certs are respected more because of the strong background.

if you have any college degree, you can take the other certs.  I would say out of any of them, the CSCS has really offered me the most interms of opportunities in this industry (although I do not have an ACSM cert....yet).


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

I wish I had the time to get through college at this point. I am absolutly horrible at test taking. I am a few credits away with graduating with major in education and a minor in history. So I pretty much got my basics already done. If I could take everything as online courses I would be ok. I am just so freakin busy with 3 kids a wife, all the job stuff, trying to keep up with house duties, etc....


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

you have to do the best you can.  just hang in there.  i suck at test taking too (unless it is an essay.  I am horrible at multiple choice).


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

Essay tests are much much easier! Is there really demand out there for trainers with a certification? I have seen ads where they are just looking for someone certified. Of course having a degree is much better, but do alot of places look down on you for not having a degree?


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

Double D said:


> Essay tests are much much easier! Is there really demand out there for trainers with a certification? I have seen ads where they are just looking for someone certified. Of course having a degree is much better, but do alot of places look down on you for not having a degree?



nope.  actually, most places wont hire you without a cert.

I had a friend that graduated from college with an exercise science degree, went to apply for a job and they told him he needed to be NASM certified!  That is fucking ridiculous.  IMO, the college degree should be what you need!  I have another friend that didn't have time to recertify, so his cert was cancelled (you have to do so many CEUs every 2 years to maintain a cert).  He was going to college, working on his masters in exercise science and nutrition......lol.....he can't fucking get a training job anywhere without a cert.

That is one of the problems with this industry.  They need someway to regulate it all.

I don't look down on someone for not having a degree and I don't look down on someone for not having a cert.  If you know your shit, you know your shit.  We have the standards where we work for the reason that no one can ever come in and say, "I only want to train with so and so because he has all the credentials."  It means a lot to people to see that and we want everyone on an equal playing field so that the patients can complain.  That is why all the physical therapists must have a DPT and why everyone must have a CSCS and why the trainers must have a minimum of a BS.  If you come in and I think you can be good and you don't have a CSCS, we pay for you to get it.


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

Very nice rundown. 

That is totally ridiculous to have a degree, but yet you have to be certified! Wow. Even I know how easy it is to get the NASM cert so I can say thats pretty ridiculous. I am blown away by that!


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

yea, IMO it should be more of a structured industry......advanced certs are fine (aka CSCS, more for athletes and ACSM, more clinical).....but, I think it should go:

1) 4 year degree in exercise sci, exercise phys or kineseology
2) a set hours of intership (like a PT or ATC would do)
3) then a job (no cert needed, but advanced certs are always good)


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

It would make more sense. Another friend I know has 1 cert from ISSA and thats all he needed! I am thinking WOW! A crap cert like that landed you a job! That blows my mind. 

What Certs do you hold?


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

Double D said:


> It would make more sense. Another friend I know has 1 cert from ISSA and thats all he needed! I am thinking WOW! A crap cert like that landed you a job! That blows my mind.
> 
> What Certs do you hold?



NSCA-CSCS
NASM-CPT
NASM-PES
USAW Club Coach


I hope to get ACSM-HFI in the future, as well as CISSN.

The I have a MS in exercise science and I hope to start an MS in human nutrition in the fall.

Basically all that this means is that I fucking spent to much money on education.......lol


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

I know the feeling I have spent around 100,000 dollars on an education I never finished. I had to quit to take care of my baby. So I landed this no where job I got right now which will be ending in the next month or so. I got to get back to my chiro and see if we are still on. I had an appointment today with him, but didnt get to go.


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

why not find a distance learning program to finish your degree up?


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

I dont care to have a degree in that anymore. It bores the shit out of me. I would like to get a degree in exercise science, but like I said no time at all. I need to look into online classes, but I dont know if anywhere would offer online classes for something like that?


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

yes.....for undergraduate, there is a program (NASM is the backbone of the program) at California University of Pennsylvania.  They have a MS too.

There is also a masters offered at AT Still University in Human movement science, but that is an MS.

There is also an MS in kineseology offered at Texas, El Paso.

Most of the programs are Masters degrees (or advanced degrees) because they are for people that are already in the field who are practicing.  The Cal U of PA is the only one I know of tha offers a BS.


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

Where did you go?


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

I had to do my MS from Cal U of PA because I was working to much to do it anywhere else.  Ideally, I would have loved to finish up at Queens College in NY when I was living there because they have a good program for Exercise Science and Nutrition, but I didn't have time.  The distance program was the only way to go.  I enjoyed it.  I learned some good stuff.  If I could do it over again, I would have gone to AT Still because there program seems to be designed better (it wasn't around when I started my MS) but it is what it is.  A lot of the people in my class (you go through the program with the same people that you start with) were ATC for pro or minor league sports teams and this was the only way that they could also finish their MS.  So, it was a pretty good learning environment.  The only thing you miss out on is the practical stuff of being there, interships, etc....but, if you are working in a place and doing it, you get to apply the education anyway, which is a good deal.


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

Sounds incredible. Wish I wouldve did something like this whenever I was single. Sucks to be 25 with 3 kids and a wife (well doesnt suck, but there are things like that I would have loved to done). I shouldve thought through what I wanted to go to school for a bit better. But all i could think about was teach and coach baseball because it was always my passion. That passion kinda dwindled once I got into college and had to learn a bunch of crap I had NO interest in. Now that I have been studying the NASM cert it is much different. I love to read it and I have read the book 2 times now. Its very interesting to me. But there is only so much info I can take from there, at this point it is seeming repetitive and boring. Its not that I know it all, I think I have accepted the things they are trying to push at me and I am simply bored with it. I think the OPT model is a good model, but there could always be things that dont fit that model, but yet they still want you to stick with that model. Which is pretty cut and dry. Like I said if I do land the job with my chiro that will be key! Salary and wont have to build up my cliental. This process seems to be taking a long time and I am getting more anxious and more nervous. I am afraid once I get certified I wont be able to find something out there, then what? Am I just fucked? Am I going to have to settle for another shit hole job like I got. I am confused. I want to move where there is more demand and my wife said she is all for it. We said something about moving to Florida, but I am not sure whats going to happen.


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

moving to florida means moving to somewhere that you have to pay more rent!  remeber, the cost of living goes up.

create an interest!  start by training guys on your team maybe?  become a strength and conditioning provider for your league.  What about trying to get in with some high schools, etc...


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

Right now I am in a very small area. Population in my town is like 2500. People here are pretty much living in poverty. Me included at this point. The average salary here is like 30,000. Its pretty sad really. The schools are very small here and have no demand for that. They have PE teachers trying to teach kids the proper mechanics of lifting weights while sitting in the weight room and catching up on paper work. Every PE teacher I ever had knew alot less than me in high school. I wouldnt have a problem working in a gym to get some type of experience. However, I have to make more there than I do here. I make about 16 bucks an hour where I work, plus its swong shift and total bullshit. Most training jobs I have seen make alot more than that. However most of them depend on cliental. So my money would be very very short until I get my clients built up. Its very frustrating.


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

Well, you have your answer right there......you live in an area that you CAN NOT work in.

To make a living, start looking at work in an area that has a demand.  That is how it has to be.


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

Yeah this is right. My only hope here is my chiropractor. He has already offered me salary and its just a waiting game. I just hope he actually plans on going through with it. I also have a friend that says there would be no problem to get me on where he is. He works in St.Louis at a Golds. I would live in a rural community around that area and commute. I wouldnt raise my daughters in St.Louis. I lived there for 2 years and WOW, it is crazy there.


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

the commute is essential.  I travel to work everyday (about 40min) to an extremely rich part of town.....it is what you have to do to make a living.  go where those that can afford your service are.  Look into the schools around there.  talk to the athletic directors and athletic trainers of those schools and see about working with one of the teams.


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

Working for a team would definitly be idea. The main thing for me is salary. If I could get something like that I will be happy. 

You ever saw that show on Bravo, "Workout"?

There is a guy there thats a gay trainer who is about 18% bf who gets 400 bucks a session. What kinda crap is that?


----------



## Duncans Donuts (May 16, 2007)

Double D said:


> It would make more sense. Another friend I know has 1 cert from ISSA and thats all he needed! I am thinking WOW! A crap cert like that landed you a job! That blows my mind.
> 
> What Certs do you hold?



ISSA is crap primarily because you can take the test at home.  The book isn't that bad, some good material in there, but some bullshit, too.  Fred Hatfield is a hack though.

I have NASM, NCSF, ACSM, & ISSA certs (I am topped out in pay at 24 hour fitness).  NASM was the most impressive, NCSF was actually high caliber too - surprisingly.  I thought it was almost on par with NASM.


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

I don't know what kind of crap that is.  Are the results he gets people worth $400?  He is in Beverly Hills.....people will pay fucking anythign there.


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

I was thinking you only get like 19 bucks an hour or so at 24 hour fitness?


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

P-funk said:


> I don't know what kind of crap that is.  Are the results he gets people worth $400?  He is in Beverly Hills.....people will pay fucking anythign there.



I dont know. I wouldnt say so. I would say if you cant even get yourself in shape, why in the hell would someone pay someone else that money?!?!


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

Double D said:


> I dont know. I wouldnt say so. I would say if you cant even get yourself in shape, why in the hell would someone pay someone else that money?!?!



  Parcells never played football but he coaced teams to championships.


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

True story. But wouldnt you want your trainer to atleast look the part if your handing out 400 bucks a session?


----------



## Duncans Donuts (May 16, 2007)

18 percent body fat isn't really that bad man..lol


----------



## Double D (May 16, 2007)

You are right, but he really didnt hold it to well. He didnt look to good you know. Well gotta go home from work here. Cya guys later.


----------



## P-funk (May 16, 2007)

at $400 a session, that person better be doing some extensive work for me, regardless of what they look like.


----------



## Stewart14 (May 17, 2007)

when you say you need a degree to get certain certs, is that a degree in the field itself, or can any old bachelor's degree do?  for exampe, could I take the CSCS test with a BBA???

and P, I know you were in NY for a while, what do you think the PT situation is there and on Long Island?  Is it worthwhile, or is the reason you moved away cause it sucked?

Can I find a decent PT on the island working part time at nights and on the weekends, in your opinion?


----------



## P-funk (May 17, 2007)

you just need a college degree.  Although somethign that is science related is going to be a lot of help.

I am sure there are some good jobs on the island.  i never worked out there myself though.  I have friends that live out there and work with some people.


----------



## AKIRA (May 17, 2007)

P-funk said:


> I just don't believe in the body part split because I don't see the body as working in that fashion.
> 
> Regardless of what you are training for, the muscles still work in the same way!  You have to use a wholistic approach.
> 
> ...



Seeing Duncans and P's comments as I am thinking of them lets me know I have been a fine grasshopper here with a good jump.  P-Funk, I gotta say thanks again for your knowledge and guidance throughout my NASM certification and clarification of different exercise variables.  But thats all the ass  for now.

The bolded part of the statement, I havent trained a bodybuilder but I was arguing with one about curling last saturday.  The fucker weighs 243lbs at 6'1 and was bragging about how he curled...but he never did rows.  Hed do hammer strength rows, but not barbell rows.  He said it was cuz of his back..only he doesnt have any back trouble?  I told him to lower the weight and practice on form...then the argument started.


----------



## AKIRA (May 17, 2007)

Duncans Donuts said:


> Good judgment comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgment.
> 
> You have the right mind-set.  You are doing your best to understand all of the unbelievably complicated variables involved in this and how to apply them specifically.  As you get some experience with clients you will steadily come to a more thorough level of understanding.  I wish you worked at my gym - as far as any reasonable basis of evaluating a quality trainer goes, you would be in the top 3 out of 30.  I can say that because very, very many of the people I work with don't even track the progress of their clients, much less workout with them "progressively".
> 
> You are on the right path man.



Ive trained clients at homes and at community centers.  I havent worked at a gym yet.  I wanted to work at this busy Golds, but there is some rumor about the training director never hiring guys bigger than him.   I dont know if thats true, but even though I have teh same certification as the training director does (NASM and some APEX shit), his trainers are, in fact, all smaller than him.

In any case, other gyms around here are smaller and dont have teh clientel.  I have a full time job doing Loss Prevention at a department store, which pays decent, but I only have less than 5 clients at a time.  

My question is, if I applied at a gym with less clientel, than Id have to be good at sales yes?  How hard is that?  People say I always looked pissed off, even though I laugh at almost anything.  This might be my flaw.


----------



## P-funk (May 17, 2007)

being good at sales doesn't mean you have to do the hard sell.  I personally hate selling.  If you can talk to someone though and show them your worth, they will typically be interested enough to pay for your services.  You just have to be convicing, knowledgeable and make them understand that you have the information that they need.


----------



## Double D (May 17, 2007)

I get the same thing about looking pissed off all the time. I am very laid, back so I dont get it.


----------



## AKIRA (May 17, 2007)

P-funk said:


> being good at sales doesn't mean you have to do the hard sell.  I personally hate selling.  If you can talk to someone though and show them your worth, they will typically be interested enough to pay for your services.  You just have to be convicing, knowledgeable and make them understand that you have the information that they need.



Ok, how about this though, this is where I ponder.

At the gym I applied at, members are basically handed to you. 

Member:  " I need a trainer."   ~Ok, whos here right now?  Akira?  Ok.~
And then my selling begins.

However, at the gym I am at now, I saw this guy get hired as a trainer.  He said hes basically a solicitor.  He walks around and talks to people.  To me, thats annoying.  Some guy walking up to me giving me some pointers when I didnt ask for them.  He said thats how he does it and his clientel sucks.  

This is why I wanted to work at the Golds ever so badly.  For now, I am stuck at smaller gyms, so theres gotta be another way.


----------



## Double D (May 17, 2007)

I know personally I wouldnt want to be bothered with someone coming up to me in the middle of a set.


----------



## AKIRA (May 17, 2007)

Exactly.  Hes a trainer like me, someone thats just starting out.  Hes a complete fool and has the worst rounded shoulders in the business.

In any case, hes only 1 example.  Id like to know how others are getting clients, if not from recommendations.


----------



## AKIRA (May 17, 2007)

Double D said:


> I dont know. I wouldnt say so. I would say if you cant even get yourself in shape, why in the hell would someone pay someone else that money?!?!



Everyone could use a trainer, not everyone could afford it.  If I could, Id cycle trainers to learn more shit.

Hey P, Duncan, how come you guys have more than 1 certification?  I havent looked into getting another certification, but I did think of going back to school for a degree...  What are their benefits and differences?


----------



## Dale Mabry (May 17, 2007)

Wow, I'm gone for a couple days and a good discussion pops up.

I hate training BBers, but when I have to I give them push/pull/legs, and tell them to switch it up to vert/horiz/legs when it gets boring.  Typically when a BBer comes toward me I run, though.

As for the other stuff.  I got my CSCS the same day P did.  I walked out of there with a sense of accomplishment, but knew it wasn't really anything.  Sports Speed and High Performance Sports Conditioning taught me more about training athletes than the CSCS materials did.  Of all of the CPT certs out there, I have yet to meet a person who passed the NASM-CPT that didn't know what they were talking about, but I stay out of chain gyms.  As long as you have to sit for the test I give it a chance, though.  The NCSF stuff is very good, they did something at the gym I train at.  I think a degree is great, but I don't have the time or money for that, so I read, and read some more.  The NASM-CES material is great, and very useful.  IMO, a strength coach should divide his reading up in to 3 parts, Functional Anatmoy, Sport-specific training, and rehab.  Most just read sport-specific material.  I use stuff from the CES material all the time and don;t think I have picked up the CSCS materials since I took the test.

As for marketing yourself, it sucks.  I have been embroiled in a huge battle the last few months.  There are some guys who are awesome at marketing, but have no idea how to train running the sport-specific training at my gym.  Round back deadlifts, heels coming up on the squat, power movements at the end of a workout, I even watched as they had a kid box squat with about twice his bodyweight and a band anchored 5 feet in front of him.  Needless to say, the second he tried to squat down the bands yanked the weight forward on to him, luckily the pins saved him.  When it came down to it, I complained and was told by the fitness director that the GM and owner didn't think I contributed enough to the bottom line.  I showed a business plan to the Fitness Director and he said if I went to another gym he would come.  He told the GM and owner about it, I met with them, and 5 seconds in to the conversation the owner was eating out of my hands because I talked of shit he had never head of, that he wanted to offer.

In the end, all that matters is that you know wtf you are talking about.  Find your audience and then prepare for people 5-6 levels smarter than them.  The people who sell but can't train lose people once they see what a good trainer can do.  Getting Dr.'s and PTs on your side doesn't hurt either.


----------



## Dale Mabry (May 17, 2007)

Oh, and read the 7 habits of highly effective people, it has gotten me quite a few clients.  Well, that's not entirely true, I hate reading that shit so I DLed the audio book from Demonoid.


----------



## CowPimp (May 17, 2007)

I don't really train any bodybuilders, no.  If I have done splits in the past it is much like what P said, but I use the terms chest/back thickness and shoulders/lats to make people feel better than horizontal and vertical movements.  That is, if they actually care, which most people don't.

I have also done a push-pull-legs split with someone who was having knee issues, trained 3 days per week, and two of those days were consecutive.  That way we only hit his lower body once a week to limit the frequent stress to his knee joint, while virtually eliminating overlap on the consecutive days.


----------



## P-funk (May 17, 2007)

AKIRA said:


> Ok, how about this though, this is where I ponder.
> 
> At the gym I applied at, members are basically handed to you.
> 
> ...





Depends on the gym.  Usually, if you have to walk around and solicit, they will also hand you leads like new members who have just signed up.  I never liked walking around either.  I find you annoy the shit out of people more than anything.  So I didn't do it.  I would just try and make sales on new members when they signed up.

That said, whether the person is handed to you or not, you still have to do some sort of selling of yourself, your program, your methodology to that individual.  I have seen people get handed to a trainer that was a moron and after the first session the person go to the training manager and say "give me someone else."  You have to know your shit and make people feel comfortable and trust you.


----------



## P-funk (May 17, 2007)

AKIRA said:


> Everyone could use a trainer, not everyone could afford it.  If I could, Id cycle trainers to learn more shit.
> 
> Hey P, Duncan, how come you guys have more than 1 certification?  I havent looked into getting another certification, but I did think of going back to school for a degree...  What are their benefits and differences?



The different certs have some differences:

1) NASM is more corrective/therapy based type of training.

2) ACSM is more clinical in their approach (think exercise physiology lab)

3) CSCS is all about training for athletics and that cert alone will open lots of doors.  Just because I have the cert and am listed on their site and have my resume there, I would say I get about 4-7 calls every month from people looking for a strength coach, looking for a performance coach for a facility or looking for some sort of business oppportunity, etc..


Also, I enjoy learning and the multiple certs show you to be diverse and well rounded.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (May 17, 2007)

I hate selling, but I am pretty good at it.  I usually demonstrate my knowledge and explain to them why we are doing a certain thing, and I also point out their progress and keep meticulous records and meet my clients at the door.  It helps.

I am also very vocal on why I hate certain things in the gym, paticularly jump squats and plyometrics.  I have argued with my fitness manager about such topics, including post workout nutrition.  I am virtually certain since I don't practice what I consider to be insanity I will lose some athlete clients, but practicing what you believe is rarely a bad idea.  I would advise anyone working in a gym to have integrity and accountability, and when people see this they will respect you.  This builds a reputation and will open doors.

I helped 2 people in my first month pass the ISSA and NASM tests.  Literally spent nearly 15 hours of unpaid time going over the course work with them.  I am doing that for 2 other people, too.  I've already got 2 clients because of this; trainers have signed up people and handed them to me for scheduling conflicts and I was the first person they were trying to help.  

Common sense, really.


----------



## AKIRA (May 17, 2007)

Hmm, maybe then I am on to something.  Double D too.

I was training my enthusiastic, but moronic male client in this public community center and this old man was there again.  He listens to my BS and watches what we do, and he chimes in every so often about workingout in general.  One time, he says to my client, "hes good, everything he is saying is right."  I gotta say, I felt appreciated, but more importantly reassurred.

I am sure Double is the same way as I am.  I cant shut up about working out.  In fact, I love arguing about it (thats why you always see me asking about pros and cons of the smith machine).  The passion is undoubtably (sp?) there and that should account for something.

I would shit myself if I ran into someone, IN PERSON, that wasnt on here, that knew what they were talking about.  If it was a girl, Id fuck her.


----------



## Stewart14 (May 18, 2007)

P-funk said:


> The different certs have some differences:
> 
> 1) NASM is more corrective/therapy based type of training.
> 
> ...


 
So, correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that if there is one cert to get if you want to get started on some kind of career in the training aspect of things, you should go for the CSCS?  Am I reading this right?

How does the CSCS differ from the NSCA's CPT cert? Obviously it is more prestigious, but what would the main differences be to someone like me who is thinking about getting started in all this training stuff?
Thanks P!


----------



## Stewart14 (May 18, 2007)

AKIRA said:


> I am sure Double is the same way as I am. I cant shut up about working out. In fact, I love arguing about it (thats why you always see me asking about pros and cons of the smith machine). The passion is undoubtably (sp?) there and that should account for something.


 
If I told you how many people I know who tell me that I should be a trainer, it would be silly. The passion is definitely there for me as well, now I just need to apply myself and get some credentials. I mean, I am fairly confident I can be a decent trainer right now. Give me a bunch of people with different goals, and I think I can confidently get them to where they want to be, only problem is I need those certs to have a leg to stand on.

I equate everything to computers, cause that's what I do now, and in many ways is similar to personal training, at least if you do a lot of computer work on the side as an independent person. A lot of people know a lot of stuff about them, but who would you trust to work on your own personal computer at home...someone who says to you, yeah, of course I know how to do that, or the guy who says, yeah, of course I know how to do that, but also has an MCSE cert or a degree in computer sciences behind him?


			
				AKIRA said:
			
		

> I would shit myself if I ran into someone, IN PERSON, that wasnt on here, that knew what they were talking about. *If it was a girl, Id fuck her*.


----------



## Double D (May 18, 2007)

I could talk training all day long! I love to argue about it and I do so with one of my buddies. Its hard to tell him that I am right and he is wrong simply because hes bigger than me, but hey I am still stronger!


----------



## Dale Mabry (May 18, 2007)

Stewart20 said:


> How does the CSCS differ from the NSCA's CPT cert? Obviously it is more prestigious, but what would the main differences be to someone like me who is thinking about getting started in all this training stuff?
> Thanks P!



The practical/application section is all about training athletes specifically, so it is more involved.  Instead of either having a fat person or a skinny person trying to lose or gain weight, you have a female basketball player who is 15 years old, has a 17" vertical, is new to training and wants to get faster.  I think the exercise science section is a little more involved too.  You have to know a ridiculous amount of microanatomy, but that may be on the CPT as well.


----------



## Double D (May 18, 2007)

That would be interesting as hell! That one requires a degree though correct?


----------



## Stewart14 (May 18, 2007)

Double D said:


> That would be interesting as hell! That one requires a degree though correct?


 
Yeah, fortunately (for me anyway) I think P said that you just need a Bachelor's degree, not necessarily in the field.


----------



## Dale Mabry (May 18, 2007)

Just a bachelors in any field and CPR.


----------



## Stewart14 (May 18, 2007)

Dale Mabry said:


> The practical/application section is all about training athletes specifically, so it is more involved. Instead of either having a fat person or a skinny person trying to lose or gain weight, you have a female basketball player who is 15 years old, has a 17" vertical, is new to training and wants to get faster. I think the exercise science section is a little more involved too. You have to know a ridiculous amount of microanatomy, but that may be on the CPT as well.


 
Is it worth it to get for someone not sure of what they want to do as far as training people goes?  For example, if you are a CSCS, can you still do the regular run of the mill training of those fat people/skinny people losing/gaining weight and wanting to look better, etc., but you also have the opportunity to train someone like the basketball player you mentioned, whereas, if you got the CPT, you are limited to the first type of scenario?

Is the risk/reward benefit of the CSCS worth the probable lots of extra studying to do?


----------



## Double D (May 18, 2007)

I can tell you personally (with only 1 cert soon), that NASM helps with the general population very well.


----------



## Stewart14 (May 18, 2007)

Double D said:


> I can tell you personally (with only 1 cert soon), that NASM helps with the general population very well.


 
OK, so many certs, so little time!

Here is my last question about the different cert types.  In all liklihood, I plan to start out being a PT of more than likely the general population, people looking to lose weight, get in shape, etc., I probably won't be dealing with serious athletes or strength trainers, at least not at first.

so with that in mind, if you guys had to pick one to start off with, which would be the best one to get my foot in the door, *in the most places*?  I guess which provides the most bang for the buck and the most instant credibility?


----------



## Dale Mabry (May 18, 2007)

Stewart20 said:


> Is it worth it to get for someone not sure of what they want to do as far as training people goes?  For example, if you are a CSCS, can you still do the regular run of the mill training of those fat people/skinny people losing/gaining weight and wanting to look better, etc., but you also have the opportunity to train someone like the basketball player you mentioned, whereas, if you got the CPT, you are limited to the first type of scenario?
> 
> Is the risk/reward benefit of the CSCS worth the probable lots of extra studying to do?



The CSCS teaches you both, so I would say it opens your options up.  I guess teaches is a strong word, they cover material for both but not crazily in depth, and I would say they need to do more on periodization and programming.  Anyway, I've interviewed at a gym without a CSCS, and with a CSCS it is alot different.  Before, they would take their time getting me in to interview and would tell me that I had to work weekends and nights, and would typically have to take a test.  This past time, having my CSCS, I didn't have to interview and I pretty much told them when I was going to work, plus I get first crack at most clients who go to the Fitness Director.


----------



## Dale Mabry (May 18, 2007)

Stewart20 said:


> OK, so many certs, so little time!
> 
> Here is my last question about the different cert types.  In all liklihood, I plan to start out being a PT of more than likely the general population, people looking to lose weight, get in shape, etc., I probably won't be dealing with serious athletes or strength trainers, at least not at first.
> 
> so with that in mind, if you guys had to pick one to start off with, which would be the best one to get my foot in the door, *in the most places*?  I guess which provides the most bang for the buck and the most instant credibility?



NASM-CPT, assuming you don't have a bachelor's.


----------



## Stewart14 (May 18, 2007)

Dale Mabry said:


> NASM-CPT, assuming you don't have a bachelor's.


 
and if I have a bachelor's?


----------



## Double D (May 18, 2007)

Which cert is accepted pretty much everywhere?


----------



## Dale Mabry (May 18, 2007)

I would say CSCS with bachelors.  I think you probably learn more info pertinent to gen pop people through the NASM, but you deal with less shit with the CSCS.  A cert is only worth what you do with it, anyway.  I think I have the best scenario right now, I have the CSCS and all the NASM PES and CES materials along with some kickass books to choose what stuff I think is valuable.  I like forming my own system based on many different systems, not just a single one.

ACE, NASM, ACSM, and NSCA are pretty much accepted anywhere.


----------



## Double D (May 18, 2007)

ACE is a joke isnt it? 

Any marterial anyone doesnt want anymore I would like to talk about buying it or atleast paying for shipping for it. The more the better.


----------



## Dale Mabry (May 18, 2007)

The ACE test isn't that hard to pass, somehow their marketing folk have the industry duped.


----------



## Double D (May 18, 2007)

What I was told is it is True False and it is done at home?


----------



## Dale Mabry (May 18, 2007)

No, it is proctored and multiple choice from what I remember.


----------



## Double D (May 18, 2007)

But its done at home? Do they have their own template much like NASM?


----------



## Dale Mabry (May 18, 2007)

It's not at home, you have to go to an exam center and take it.


----------



## P-funk (May 18, 2007)

who cares what cert you have.  if you can't apply information to people then it is worthless.


----------



## Double D (May 20, 2007)

P-funk said:


> who cares what cert you have.  if you can't apply information to people then it is worthless.



Exactly.


----------



## ponyboy (May 22, 2007)

Ditto on that.  I don't have what anyone would consider any high end certs (except for my CHEK stuff) but I've been doing this now for 7 years and seen just about everything there is to see.  Knowledge is one thing, but applied knowledge is something totally different.  I can't count the amount of "trainers" I see come out of university with high end degrees and they can't even explain to someone properly how to do a bench press.  And their people skills suck.    

If I knew then what I know now, not only would I take a good cert program, but also a public speaking course (for self-confidence), an NLP course (for changing people's thought patterns) and a basic sales course to improve human relations and selling skills.  Learn how to make small talk for 8 hours a day.  Learn how to think on your feet so when a client comes in and says we can't do legs you can totally revamp your workout in two minutes.  And most importantly, learn how to tell people what they need in a way that will make them trust you, because that's how you get long term good clients.


----------

