# Few Trib questions...



## Pizzer (Aug 10, 2004)

1. I have been taking this in the morning on an empty stomach and then again in the afternoon also on an empty stomach (empty=before my meal for that hour):
TRIBULUS TERRESTRIS EXTRACT      750 Mg N/A*  
Avena Sativa                                750 Mg N/A 
This is the recommened dosage... Should I be taking more in order to see results and stacking with an anti-estrogen like Biotest 'M' ??

2. I take the trib with a multivitamin, fish oil capsule, and 2 Thermo-hydroxycuts for an energy boost. Then i will eat... usually a whey shake or a bowl of honey nut cheerios and a glass of oj... 
Does anything in this combo result in explosive diarrheia    that lasts all day long into the next morning?? Needless to say, i took nothing this morning so as to settle my stomach. And this isnt a bug or a flu or anything cuz this is not the first time that this has happened.
Is the trib relaxing the smooth muscles of my stomach and intestines and making them "loose"???


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## rrgg (Aug 10, 2004)

Some have this reaction from creatine.  Any chance you're taking it?


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## Luke9583 (Aug 10, 2004)

I have that reaction to ephedra based products.


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## topolo (Aug 10, 2004)

I have this reaction when I see John Kerry


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## Pizzer (Aug 10, 2004)

jesus... i think you were all right!! the Thermohydroxycut it Ephedra based... i am taking creatine, but this explosiveness is different than that bloated gas-y feeling...
I too feel the same for Kerry... and i should have noted, that it seems to be only on Mondays and Tuesday morning daytime... I dont use the thermo, trib or creatine on the weekends as i am not training on saturday and sunday... thanks for the input!!! i think i will lay off the thermo and see if that helps. thanks again!!!


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## Luke9583 (Aug 10, 2004)

Its the ephedra, take it out for a bit.   I think we have similar guts. 


Let's keep the politics in the Open section dude.  He didn't say 'explosive diarehea of the mouth'


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## MTN WARRIOR (Aug 10, 2004)

Good thing you werent referring to that "shit for brains" Bush


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## Luke9583 (Aug 10, 2004)

you give bush too much credit.


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## thejames (Aug 10, 2004)

So many things wrong with Kerry, if people were more aware this election wouldn't even be close. Keep voting Democrat, it's easier than thinking/working!


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## Luke9583 (Aug 10, 2004)

thejames said:
			
		

> So many things wrong with Kerry, if people were more aware this election wouldn't even be close. Keep voting Democrat, it's easier than thinking/working!


 

All i hear is " my mom tells me to vote republican"







 j/k,  this thread is gonna get ugly.


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 11, 2004)

trib and products based on trib are not worth the money.


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## rrgg (Aug 11, 2004)

marcusmaximus -- Your claim has already been debated.   To summarize:

When you say it's worthless, what brand of tribulus are you talking about?  It matters because, upon testing, some tribulus products were found to contain no active concentration of Protodioscin. Specifically:


AST Sports Sciene Trioxalon 500 - no detectable protodioscin
EAS EcdyMax - no detectable protodioscin
Optimum Tribulus 625 - no detectable protodioscin
VPX Sports Paradeca XS 357 - no detectable protodioscin
MRM TribuPlex 750 - virtually none, 1.72mg per cap
Muscletech Anotesten - virtually none, 1.9 mg/cap
Sopharma Tribestan 33.5mg/tablet
Biotest Tribex 500 - 35.7mg/cap
Thermolife Tribosten 73.3mg/tablet

If you used any of the first 6 products, you basically weren't taking tribulus in the first place.  Apparently Anabolic Matrix is a high quality tribulus product too. Anecdotally, some have claimed beyond-a-century brand is also good.


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 11, 2004)

please note my wording as you have read something that i did not state....

no where did i write that it is worthless...  i say that it is not worth the money.


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## rrgg (Aug 11, 2004)

So are you saying that even good tribulus is not worth the money?  Which product did you use and how much?


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## Pirate! (Aug 11, 2004)

rrgg said:
			
		

> marcusmaximus -- Your claim has already been debated.   To summarize:
> 
> When you say it's worthless, what brand of tribulus are you talking about?  It matters because, upon testing, some tribulus products were found to contain no active concentration of Protodioscin. Specifically:
> 
> ...


What is the source if this informtion?


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## Luke9583 (Aug 11, 2004)

MarcusMaximus said:
			
		

> please note my wording as you have read something that i did not state....
> 
> no where did i write that it is worthless... i say that it is not worth the money.


 
I find it invaluable.  ironic


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 12, 2004)

it is not ironic;  it is debatable.


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 12, 2004)

Protodioscin has been studied in aging males and peri and pre menopausal women.  in OLD MEN, it has a significant increase effect on DHEA but not a significant increase in testosterone conversion.  in one such study of Protodioscin, testosterone levels actually decreased, possibly to it's natural conversion to EST.    people receiving the placebo in the second round of testing actually had a much greater ( and significant ) increase in DHEA than the test subjects did.  

The amount of Protodioscin taken per day by each test subject was 250mg.  each day for 6 weeks.  

some male test subject did report more frequent erections.  these men are over 50 years old.  if an 18- 30 year old male has trouble getting a hard on then i suggest that more than just trib is needed.  The amount of trib needed for a youngish male to see a sign increase in test would be enormous.  

DHEA and trib may be more effective in women as a preventative agent of OSTEOPOROSIS.  that remains to be seen although the drug companies and supplement shills/hucksters would have you believe that this little baby is the next viagra/praxil/ prozac/phenteramine.  you can always trust a drug rep.

now there are always those bodybuilders who believe that even a potential 1% increase in anything is worth any amount of money.  for these people, nothing can be done to dissuade them from their choice.  

for the others- choose wisely. 

mm


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## Pirate! (Aug 12, 2004)

well put mm. What is your source of the info you posted in #12 about different products' test results?


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## thejames (Aug 12, 2004)

This isn't a thread to debate politics, but you say my mom tells me to vote Republican? Get a clue, you sound like the product of MTV generation.  I'll just address two things.

1. The War in Iraq - 5 UN resolutions over 12 years allowing for any country to go in and disarm Iraq. If the fault lies with anyone it is the UN backing down from their own resolutions. Before we went to war, no one could say whether or not Iraq had WMD's, so to call Bush a liar is uninformed at best. It comes down to whether you support preemptive strikes or retaliation to terrorists attacks. I would hope after September 11 people would prefer the first. This of course gets away from the fact that both Kerry and Edwards supported the war in Iraq, and now since no WMD's were found are quick to back off as American soldiers are dying. Edwards went as far to say that Saddam Hussein is a "... clear and immenent threat, and we should do whatever is possible to go in and disarm him." As for Kerry, if you search you can find where someone made a 15 minute thing of him changing views back and forth from support of the war to being against it. The only thing that the UN weapons inspectors could say for sure is that Iraq did not possess any nuclear capabilities, but there was about 3000 scientists, 7000 missiles, and countless other weapons unnaccounted for. 

2. The Economy - The Tech stock boom ended in early 2000. After tech stocks had been making superinflated returns for so long, when the tech stocks stopped making such enormous gains and returned to normal is one of the reasons the economy was in a downswing. Coupled with September 11, a war in Iraq, and high gas prices, the economy is bound to suffer. The economy started to go into recession in March 2000, while Bill Clinton was still in office. 

People will argue that our foreign relations are bad now, but I would rather be a country that fought for its protection than be like Spain, and allow a terrorist attack to influence our elections. 

Democrats work under the principal of tax the rich give the money to the poor or as I would define it, buying votes from the poor with the rich people's money. 

I have a lot more than this I could say, and I hope this doesn't ruin the thread, but Luke turn off your TV, enroll in some entry level college business, economic, and political classes and learn for yourself instead of regurtiating everything the media or your public school teachers tell you.


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## Du (Aug 12, 2004)

The numbers from RRGG look to have come from a Tribosten ad. Check out http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/thermo/ad.jpg to see for yourself. I cant say if the numbers are right or wrong, but theyre obviously biased.


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## Luke9583 (Aug 12, 2004)

thejames said:
			
		

> I have a lot more than this I could say, and I hope this doesn't ruin the thread, but Luke turn off your TV, enroll in some entry level college business, economic, and political classes and learn for yourself instead of regurtiating everything the media or your public school teachers tell you.


 
My father is one of those public school teachers.   

are you calling public school teachers liars?


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 12, 2004)

you beat me to it.  i was about to post that the numbers came from someone else.  however, this product roll-out is similar to every new 'breakthrough' product announcement to come down the line;  you take a product that has a dubious effect yet loyal following, put in a minimal amount of said product in a pill or powder, then announce that this new wonderful product will give you amazing gains, weight loss, reverse baldness, increase your sex drive,  improve your erections, make all women swoon over you etc...
then you pay people to inundate the boards with their pronouncements of this wondrous pill.  give them kick backs etc...


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## thejames (Aug 12, 2004)

Most public school teachers are liberals. But if you choose to associate liberals with liars, I can't say i blame you.

Nice rebuttal on your reasons to vote for Kerry though, GJ! I hope I am not giving you too much credit by assuming you can pick up on internet sarcasm.


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## Luke9583 (Aug 12, 2004)

thejames said:
			
		

> Most public school teachers are liberals. But if you choose to associate liberals with liars, I can't say i blame you.


Why would I do that? I think anybody that gets screwed by republicans would be bitter towards them. I dont stand on either side of the fence. I just laugh when I see people like you get so worked up; and try to offend me.

But, I did vote for Gore.   And as it stands, I can't possibly see myself voting for bush.  You can vote for whomever you choose.  That's the beuaty of it


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 12, 2004)

so,   when does the ritalin kick in?


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## Pirate! (Aug 12, 2004)

Thanks for the link. Since it is an advertisement, I can't rely on it's accuracy. Hey Luke, since this thread is about Tribulus, why don't you tell me how long it takes to feel a difference on Vitrex or whatever it is called?


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## thejames (Aug 12, 2004)

If you don't get worked up over American politics, than you don't deserve the right to vote. I can at least respect the people who say they are voting for Kerry and give reasons. Must be nice to sleepwalk through life.


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## Luke9583 (Aug 12, 2004)

thejames said:
			
		

> If you don't get worked up over American politics, than you don't deserve the right to vote. I can at least respect the people who say they are voting for Kerry and give reasons. Must be nice to sleepwalk through life.


O, i get worked up. I deffinately care. But I wont stand on one side, and say 'my side is always right'. That would be too much like church. 




			
				thejames said:
			
		

> If you don't get worked up over American politics, than you don't deserve the right to vote. .


Thank god they dont give idiots the right to say who can vote!





Vitrx... i popped for a two day period, just to see. It has a stimulant in it. That's all I can tell ya. I did order some Matrix too tho.


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## Pirate! (Aug 12, 2004)

Luke9583 said:
			
		

> O, i get worked up. I deffinately care. But I wont stand on one side, and say 'my side is always right'. That would be too much like church.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Obviously, your side is more left than right.   I am on my second day of Anabolic Matrix-$$ @ 6 caps a day. No change in anything at this point. I will leave this stuff for old men--unless it "kicks in" real soon. At this rate, a bottle will last only ten days!


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## Luke9583 (Aug 12, 2004)

Well I"m a student in a state that's known to be LEFT sided, and getting ass raped by raising tuition at the hand of a republican whore. (I meant, mean person )


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 12, 2004)

PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> Obviously, your side is more left than right.   I am on my second day of Anabolic Matrix-$$ @ 6 caps a day. No change in anything at this point. I will leave this stuff for old men--unless it "kicks in" real soon. At this rate, a bottle will last only ten days!



its been said ( a saying made infamous by Arnold  in Pumping Iron ) that bodybuilders will take crank case oil at a dollar an ounce if they are told that said oil will increase their muscularity.  this was long before synthol so he wasn't far off.  

there are always a few people who will be duped and there are always a few people who spend the money and use themselves as test subjects knowing what they are getting into.   of course everyone, after the fact, puts themselves into the latter category. 

the trouble comes when an inducement for positive reviews is attached to the tests.  you can NEVER trust anyone who posts a positive comment since you can't tell who has been paid the 15% or whatever the percentage is.


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## thejames (Aug 12, 2004)

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage." - Alexander Tyler (sounds like a democrat, a good reason for restricted voting!)

If you have any trouble with the words Luke, be sure to stop by www.dictionary.com for the meanings.

Are you going to list any reasons to support Kerry or avoid it more? Hey if its because MTV told you to a lot of people will be able to relate and you shouldn't be emberrassed!


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## Luke9583 (Aug 12, 2004)

Mr. James, 

I'm guessing you dont like MTV. At least we have _something_ incommon.

I'm not going to list any reasons for supporting Kerry, I"m hoping you'll educate yourself on the choices enough. I'm not pushing Kerry on anybody. I dont EVEN like Kerry that much. *But* I do feel he is the lesser of two evils; and our choices SUCK for this election. 

Besides, it sounds like you've made up your mind. How could I possibly tell you anything to sway you from what your mommy has told you all these years.


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## thejames (Aug 12, 2004)

All you do is bash Bush, and say this new phrase I hear a lot from uniformed idiots that "Kerry is the lesser two evils." Why? Seriously, just keep repeating the same thing over. It sounds like you have a reason to think the way you do. Address one thing in #20 post, or go away. There is a lot more wrong with Kerry's campaign than what I have listed and would list it, but we have hijacked this thread enough. You have had numerous times to post a response that would give reasons for support of Kerry or at least why Bush is so bad, but instead you just say everything over again in different words. You take the time to reply, yet you say it isn't worth your time? I would argue you have nothing in support of Kerry or against Bush that actually holds water, your a waste of time, and a waste of a vote. Do me a favor and vote 3rd party so you throw your vote away, and don't influence the election. 

Quick last point, remember when Clinton ran and how it was a big issue that he dodged the draft? Democrats made it out to be a non-issue than, I guess 12 years later something has changed. I have more to say on this, but most Democrats are as thick headed as Luke. This is the last post I am going to make on this thread about politics, Luke couldn't carry a debate with a 3rd grader and I am sure more people checking it want to read about tribulus and not politics.


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## Du (Aug 12, 2004)

So what does this have to do with tribulus?   

Anyone ever tried Tribex or twinlab Trib Fuel Extreme? 

I'm going to be starting a cycle soon and would like to know who has tried what, and how well they worked.


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## Luke9583 (Aug 12, 2004)

*Tribex is good! I feel good about biotest. (IMHO)*




			
				thejames said:
			
		

> I have more to say on this, but most Democrats are as thick headed as Luke. This is the last post I am going to make on this thread about politics, Luke couldn't carry a debate with a 3rd grader and I am sure more people checking it want to read about tribulus and not politics.


I dont see any debating, just insults How very republican of you! 


The most ironic part about your responses is the fact that you insult my intelliegence, saying I couldn't debate with a 3rd grader; all while you are supporting a guy who cannot say "nuclear" (and announciation is the least of his worries)

Not only could Clinton announciate, he didn't take off *month long vacations*. Hell, even while the guy was getting head from Monica he was at work. He was on the phone doing his job.  

But Clinton and Kerry are two different people. And thick headed people don't realize that not all individuals of one party are alike.  Who knows what kinda president Kerry would be like. I went in optimistic about Bush! I liked his dad, but Walker SUCKS in my book. 

You bore me. Go back to the Yatch club and play bridge with mommy. Don't forget to tuck in your shirt.


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## Pirate! (Aug 12, 2004)

du510 said:
			
		

> So what does this have to do with tribulus?
> 
> Anyone ever tried Tribex or twinlab Trib Fuel Extreme?
> 
> I'm going to be starting a cycle soon and would like to know who has tried what, and how well they worked.


IMO, don't bother with tribulus if you are under 40 years old.


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## thejames (Aug 12, 2004)

I try to stay away from this, but your just not bright look at post #20. TWO MAJOR REASONS WHY I SUPPORT BUSH BASED ON THE WAR IN IRAQ AND THE ECONOMY. 

I figured it out now. You watched Faranheit 9/11, thats where you get your information from. Nothing beats listening to the guy with a high school education who makes films that are complete lies! Michael Moore is a pseudointellectual, who leans so far to the left his fat ass would break the fence. Don't try to say your not bias to the left if your using Moore for your opinion. Most of this "vacation" time was either weekends or at Camp David meeting with foreign diplomats. 

Clinton didn't do anything while in office except Monica and ride the tech stock boom economy. His wife is a blatant socialist, whose ideas of universal healthcare and saying healthcare is a right is downright scary. Last time I checked, I didn't see healthcare guaranteed anywhere in the Constitution. She reminds me of a modern Robin Hood.  

When you graduate from Yale, you can than proceed to criticize someone who makes a lot of speechs errors in annunciation. Until than keep your community college education elitist attitude to yourself!

You say random things "I went in optimistic of Bush", what has he done to make you not like him? Answer a question for once. Another perfect example of how idiotic you are when it comes to American politics, "Who knows what kinda president Kerry would be like." I think that statement right there summarizes why you should not be voting. First off, you don't know what he stands for, and yet you support him. Secondly, I think your statement pretty much sums up right there why most people won't for Kerry. What kind of President would he be? I don't even think he knows, he changes his views with each day that is why people have started referring to him as Flipper. 

Respond to something in post #20 on your next post please, I know it will be hard. 

I hope most people realize how detrimental it is to America to have voters like you so uninformed it is amazing. Not only are you uniformed, you can't even refute claims in support of Bush. I'm sure most democrats out there are like, "Man, Luke makes some good posts what is that James guy thinking. Luke is like Bush sucks and Kerry is better, yeah that makes sense. I don't need to hear anything else." Tools.


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## Du (Aug 12, 2004)

PirateFromHell said:
			
		

> IMO, don't bother with tribulus if you are under 40 years old.


So what would you recommend for PCT, other than an anti-estro?


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 13, 2004)

i'm over 40 and i wouldn't bother with trib.  perhaps 50 would be a more appropriate cutoff age.   

a 750 mg trib product- if the proto is 10% , then this only has 75mg of the active ingredient.  it would have to be 33 % by dry weight to get 250 mg active ingredient.


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 13, 2004)

anyone else notice that Bob changed the ad for his own tribble based product almost at the same time as this thread started to go sour?  a very hyper-muscular bodybuilder's pic is now alongside the ad. 
 I wonder what prompted the change?  

Also, i wonder if Bob even knows the bodybuilder in the pic? 

Was permission obtained to use the photo?

And if so, is the guy getting his fair share of compensation for his likeness being used in the ad?  or is the pic part of the public domain?  

I wonder what the bodybuilder would say should he discover that he is being used to promote the use of a tribble product? 

 i would hope that he'd want a cut of the money.  

is this just like the muscle tech ads?


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## Luke9583 (Aug 13, 2004)

Just for your satisfaction James,

"2. The Economy - . The economy started to go into recession in March 2000, while Bill Clinton was still in office. "

And Bush did nothing to help it since, except give everybody a 600$ tax check back. Gore pushed for technology, Bush.... fought a war. 

"community college education" - Can you post a simple reply without attacking somebody? You haven't responded to anything I've posted to you either. I started to send you PM's so you would stop posting political bs on a thread for tribulus. You dont even respond to the questions in my PM's.

You have 12 total posts here at IM. How many are related to diet, supplements, or training? Some contributor you are. You are the reason I dont like the extreme republican-types. You are fake, arrogant, and too thick headed to even consider looking at something from a different angle. But I dont like the extremes of anything. I am a firm beleiver in _"everything in moderation"._

I've disproved all of your theories about me. I dont watch MTV; jazz muscicians dont care for rap too much . And as far as Moore's movie goes, I also posted to you that I beleive everybody should see it, *BUT *take it with a grain of salt. Anybody who see's 9/11 should also read* "The lies of Michael Moore. By Christopher Hitchens".*  I do occasionally listen to Howard Stern though.  He has been real annoying lately.  All he does is complain about the FCC.

My first PM to you stated that I am enjoying the political discussion and I think that it's healthy. 

You responded with ....
_"Try to formulate a reason for what you believe before you run your mouth"_

and sent me to some OBVIOUSLY bias repub BS site. That looks like a great "education".

Once again, I wouldn't mind continuing. But respond to the PM's instead or start a thread elsewhere. I know you need to post your responses more 'publically' to feel like a *big man.* But why don't you try something different for a change.


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## rrgg (Aug 13, 2004)

>>What is the source if this informtion?

*PIRATEFROMHELL*-- I posted the source on another thread last week and so I didn't bother this time.  One of the tribulus companies put out a lab report on various products, and that's where I got the data.    http://www.thermolife.com/labReport-Tribosten.pdf  I don't see what's wrong with that.  If I sold tribulus, I'd also test underpriced competitors.  Yes, some may (cynically) think the company "faked" these numbers, but I don't and the data in this report seemed to confirm my original suspicions.  (Remember the claims about low concentration prohormones from a certain retailer?)  I personally found that my first go at tribulus did very little.      I tried a different brand after a recommendation from a friend and liked it.    



*MAXIMUS*-  You've responded several times on this thread, but I'm still waiting for an answer from you.  

Which tribulus product did you use and at what dose before you decided it wasn't worth the money?   Or are you saying that "in theory" it's not worth the money?

Are you trying to say that even good tribulus is not worth the money?  (It seems relatively cheap actually).

What alternative do you feel is worth the money?


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## Luke9583 (Aug 13, 2004)

I seem to get a little growth spurt anytime I use a decent dosage of tribulus.  I"m 21.  Could I still be growing?


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 13, 2004)

rrgg,
didn't realize that i had to respond to everything. i can't remember but i think i missed your question actually. then got bogged down by all the political shit on this thread


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 13, 2004)

*Tribbles And Bits*

RRGG,
i used the sopharm product a number of years ago.  bulgarian trib.   this product wasn't studied to any extent at that time.  got nothing from it.

i don't always subscribe to "in theory" statements; like homer says " in theory, communism works, in theory!"   many things that scientists find to be useless turn out to be satisfactory.  and the opposite is true as well; many things that scientists say are safe and helpfull turn out to be very dangerous and harmful ( yet very profitable ).  

however, in this case, tribble is not worth the amount of money that manu are demanding.  a price range of 9.99 to 19.99 for the products currently retailing for 49.99 to 59.99 would be reasonable.  

however, this is retail so the money must be made upfront before it becomes apparent to everyone involved in the industry that it is a sham product.  so the marks and pigeons pay thru the nose.  

there are always those who pay through the nose for the dubious pleasure of being the first to try a product.  it is a healthy mix of those with too much money and of those who are too eager to make an informed choice.  or as Mr. Burns so inelegantly put it " a healthy mix of the rich and the stupid!"  

I wouldn't say that people who buy trib are stupid; they just desperately want to get bigger and are willing to spare no expense in that attempt.  And there are unscrupulous manufacturers with very little personal integrity, if any at all, who capitalize on people's personal misery, misfortune and desires.


smilax, boron, hot stuff, gamma oryzanol, inosine, creatine transport systems (dextrose )-


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## rrgg (Aug 13, 2004)

You originally stated that tribulus is not worth the money which implies that it does actually work, but is too costly for you.  Your most recent statement is a bit different --- it basically says you don't like the product because you have a cynical view of supplements.  Maybe this is where we can disagree, because that kind of logic doesn't work for me.  By the way, if tribulus really were as useless as gamma oryzanol, it would probably be off the shelves by now, after all these years. 

Side note-- You didn't mention your dosage, but since you took tribulus a number of years ago, I imagine you used the original dosing which was low.


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## Arnold (Aug 13, 2004)

the current Tribulus extracts, such as the one I put into *ANABOLIC-MATRIX Rx* contain high amounts of Protodioscin. Many Tribulus products on the market contain very little to no Protodioscin even though they claim they do.

The Tribulus supplements in the past were worthless and did not contain any Protodioscin, hence the reason it has gotten such a bad rap. And many still on the market today are worthless because the manufacturers either do not want to pay the high price for the expensive Tribulus extracts, or they are not ensuring that their raw material suppliers are guaranteeing that their Tribulus has Protodioscin, this should be checked with a C & A on every batch.


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## topolo (Aug 13, 2004)

I am on day 5 of anabolic matrix, I am using it during a ph bulking cycle to see if limits testicular shrinkage........I will keep you posted


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 13, 2004)

rrgg,
i didn't imply anything other than what i posted.  however, you may have inferred something that was incorrect.  you inferred that i meant that these supps ' work';  I did not.  the studies that have been done on this item shows that it perhaps would be beneficial for women suffering from osteoporosis and old men who have trouble getting an erection  if either of these descriptions fit you, then by all means, help yourself to trib.  you can have the samples previously alloted for me.


 i cannot control for the drastic misinterpretations that some people have made regarding my along with others comments.  it seems common on these internet boards for people to read into another's comments whatever it is that promotes their own point of view.  

you incorrectly ascribe to me the term " cynic" ;  the correct term would be skeptic.  


 i am more concerned about clear false and misleading ads regarding the supplements. Moreover, i am concerned about the deceitful and manipulative ad practices that the companies are using to entice the gullible, naive and desperate to part with their money.  

The under the table kick backs, the use of bodybuilder endorsements, pictures and quotes alongside pics of the product- Syntrax is a well known company using shills and hucksters, MuscleTech is yet another one and now Ironmag labs.  the argument by the owners is that " we have to get the product out there and this is the best way to do  it!"    

it would be nice if a product could stand on it's own merits.  Whatever else that the bodybuilder in any of these ads took, trib ( if taken at all ) played an insignificant role in his/her development. 

as for the logic that doesn't work for you;  that is plainly obvious.  

as always, feel free to try all the supplements you wish, because if you don't , then they win...


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 13, 2004)

of course, someone will post hundreds of links to studies showing how the trib increased whatever hormone in the subjects; which only goes to prove that there are studies to prove whatever you want.  and stats to back it up.  and lawyers to argue your point.  and expert witnesses to confirm the suspicion.


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## Luke9583 (Aug 13, 2004)

Marcus, come on.  We all know that you're just bitter because you can't buy M1t in canada!


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## thejames (Aug 13, 2004)

Luke, your first PM was titled, "You SUCK." You also left out the link that I gave you, but that's fine. Your a hypocrite and a pseudointellectual and you lie about PMs, and you don't respond to #20, I am done with you. 600$ tax rebates helped the economy by people spending the extra money. I am done with you.


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## rrgg (Aug 13, 2004)

Chill. 

Maybe you missed it, but I specifically wrote "maybe this is where we can disagree."  I was saying that after this discussion I felt I understood your reasoning but merely don't agree with the logic behind it and can leave it at that.  I'm pretty surprised by your response.




> you may have inferred something that was incorrect.  you inferred that i meant that these supps ' work';



Are you now saying that tribulus doesn't work?  

Your previous messages did in fact imply that tribulus works.  I did not infer anything incorrectly nor did I make "drastic misinterpretations."  It's more likely that you wrote something you didn't mean to write.  I'll break it down for you in three examples:

(1) You put a dollar value on tribulus.  If the product didn't work, you would value it at $0.00.

"a price range of 9.99 to 19.99 for the products currently retailing for 49.99 to 59.99 would be reasonable."


(2) You stated that the product is "not worth the money."  The implication of this statement is that without money as a barrier, then it's worth taking and therefore must work.

"trib and products based on trib are not worth the money."


(3) After I mistakenly thought you meant tribulus is "worthless," you went out of your way to say that tribulus is NOT worthless.  This implies that it has value.

"no where did i write that it is worthless... i say that it is not worth the money."




> You incorrectly ascribe to me the term " cynic" ; the correct term would be skeptic.



Yes, you are skeptical about supplement claims, as are many people. 

You also made it clear that you have a cynical view of the supplement industry.  Your explanation for those who are duped into buying tribulus included, "there are unscrupulous manufacturers with very little personal integrity, if any at all, who capitalize on people's personal misery, misfortune and desires."  If you make a purchase decision while presuming supplement manufacturers have a selfish desire to trick consumers, then that is by definition cynicism.  Maybe your cynicism is justified, but you might as well identify it.



> as for the logic that doesn't work for; that is plainly obvious



I was trying to say that basing a decision on cynicism can lead to logic fallacies.




> of course, someone will post hundreds of links to studies showing how the trib increased whatever hormone in the subjects;



You just claimed that tribulus only works for "women suffering from osteoporosis and old men who have trouble getting an erection" (followed by another ad hominem attack).  Now you claim that studies exist showing uses for tribulus in and outside bodybuilding.  Your statement about these studies is a little arbitrary and they actually seem to support the claim that tribulus has value, not the opposite.

What alternative product do you feel is worth the money, if any?


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## madden player (Aug 13, 2004)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> ...The Tribulus supplements in the past were worthless and did not contain any Protodioscin...


I'm going to disagree...I have used Tribulus sups in the past and found it to be a super powerful aphrodisiac...I was in my young 20's and I would day dream about sex like I was a horny 13 yr old virgin during puberty...I probally didn't stay on it long enough to see any results in the gym...too $$ to take the doses that I think are required to get a boost from it. (I would take ~5g a day of high quality Tribulus...according to a herbalist and pharmicist it is not toxic at any dose.)

The herbalist that I purchase Valerian from said Tribulus has been used for centuries as a natural treatment for impotence/lack of libido/mild depression.  Just the fact that it has been used for such a long time and is still very popular today most mean something.


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## Luke9583 (Aug 13, 2004)

I have used several brands of tribulus. (Higher Power, Universal, Nutrex, Biotest, ect). I have yet to find one that doesn't work. I consistently break out, every time I use tribulus. I am also in a better mood. I do beleive I have naturally low test. levels though.  




			
				thejames said:
			
		

> Your a hypocrite and a pseudointellectual and you lie about PMs, and you don't respond to #20, I am done with you. 600$ tax rebates helped the economy by people spending the extra money. I am done with you.


"AND AND AND" talk about intelligence mister conjunction .

It's funny that your description of me is the same thing you used about Moore in your PM (When you were the person to bring up Moore). You are obviously a very touchy little man. Did you lose the bridge game or something?




			
				thejames said:
			
		

> I am done with you.


You've said that in every post so far. The title of my PM was just as much of a joke as the first political response I posted on this thread. (go back and look at it). And I did respond to your number 20. Thank you for confirming that you don't read anything anybody else posts .

You give up so easy... _"You dont deserve the right to vote"_


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 13, 2004)

rrgg, 

you seem to infer the worst when reading someone's post.  there was no attack- only that which you misread.  we disagree on a variety of terms; cynicism versus skepticism. worthiness and worthless.  i put a dollar value on a product- the bottle and label cost something as does the adverts.  they had to pay something for the product in the pills.  would i take the product again?  no.  would i rec it?  no.  Do i care if you take it?  no.  Do i dislike the shady business practices of the people pushing this and similar items on the general public?  yes.

take all the trib you want.  take my share.  
as for your requests for my sources etc; www.google.com
there was another person who assumed the worst about an innocent post ( innocent meaning that only a paranoid nut would take it as an attack as this post wasn't even addressed to him );  i will extend the benefit of the doubt to you that you are nothing like that person whatsoever. 

even this is not an attack; it is point counterpoint.  unless you bring up something regarding trib that needs addressing, my stance is as follows;
most supps do not "work" in the sense that the purchasers would prefer.
most supps are vastly overpriced 
most supps are vastly over-hyped
most manufacturers resort to fraudulent adverts practices in order to sell their products
some manufaturers now resort to embedded shills / hucksters in order to sell their products.
most manufacturers resort to using obviously steroid/synthol  enhanced bodybuilders to sell their product. 

this leaves the door open for consumer Joe to make the next step in thinking that the product somehow contributed to the bodybuilder's physique.  
the use of these pics is fraudulent and a misrepresentation of what a person could expect from taking the product.  the little disclaimer at the bottom of the bottle about " not typical of average user " is rarely used and is rarely if ever seen by the consumer.  it won't get you out of trouble Bob, when you are sued for false advertising.  Look at the success of the 10 million dollar US class action lawsuit against EAS.  you had better be putting 10% of sales aside for the inevitable law suit if you continue using those pics and those ads.

eph does work but eph is a drug.
m1t does work but m1T is a drug.
steroids work but steroids are drugs.  
if steroids were not illegal, i would load up on steroids.


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## rrgg (Aug 13, 2004)

Give me a break.  You made no ad hominem comments?  Ha-ha.  And you came up with a $10-$20 value for the cost of advertising?  Hilarious.   



> as for your requests for my sources etc; www.google.com


I never asked for sources.  I accepted your studies at face value.  I said that your very claim about these studies actually helps prove that tribulus has value both in and outside of bodybuilding. 



> unless you bring up something regarding trib that needs addressing, my stance is as follows;
> most supps do not "work" in the sense that the purchasers would prefer.
> most supps are vastly overpriced
> most supps are vastly over-hyped
> ...


Most?  Some?  Who cares?   No one is questioning these arbitrary statements.  This thread isn't titled "*FEW QUESTIONS ABOUT MOST SUPPLEMENTS*."  Drawing a conclusion about tribulus based your other supplement experiences is also a logic fallacy.  The issue is whether it works, or in your case whether it's worth the money, and what alternative you think is worth the money.

Look --- I merely wanted you to clarify your statements, so I asked some questions (some of which are still being dodged).  Claiming tribulus is "not worth the money" is a broad statement, and considering the number of people who like it and how long it's been on the market, it's also a bold statement. To paraphrase your very own sig, if you're going to assert claims like this, expect a response.

So you don't like tribulus.  Thanks for the info.


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 13, 2004)

didn't realize that i had to answer everyone in everything. i'll keep that in mind.  i also have to remember to include the smileys etc.  some people are very concrete and literal minded. this is not a bad thing nor is it a derogatory comment about people who think in such a manner. 

i don't know the meaning of ad hominem.  if you'd explain to me what it means then i'd address that issue.

someone specifically asked me which supplements worked, in my opinion.  so i answered that question in there.   someone else ( wasn't you i guess ) asked for sources for these studies.  please forgive me if it wasn't you and for putting an off topic answer in a response allocated to you.  

as for the 10-20 buck range; there were a number of items included in that price.  adverts was just one item. you left out the others in your comment.  i dont' recall writing that advertising was the entire 20 bucks but if i did. then i stand corrected.  advertising is only about 50-80% of a products cost.  there is a price range differing for each product category however.

as for the number of people taking an item for a prolonged period of time over a span of decades if not centuries: this proves very little.  Which subject is not the aim of this thread.


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## rrgg (Aug 13, 2004)

Maybe I should sell canned air at a supplement store.  After all, it has a value of $10 to $20.  Besides it must work better than tribulus right Max?


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 13, 2004)

the null hypothesis would be that tribulus does not work and you would perform experiments trying to show that it did have a quantifiable, repeatable and desirable effect.

the dubious statements would therefore apply to any statements purporting to great results ( 50% increase in testosterone - fantastic increases in muscle mass, lose fat, increase your libido ) from the ingestion of whatever particular product is in question.  
the outrageous claims etc would include the juxtapositioning of a bodybuilder's picture along with the advertisement.  Especially the one that Bob is now using- that is an outrageous example.  that guy is in incredible shape!  certainly has little if anything to do with tribulus.  

I am NOT denying that some people report good if not great results from tribulus.  and I am NOT saying that they are lying.  They believe it to be of some value and give their honest opinion as a statement of fact.  

Tribulus may have some effect, in some people, some of the time or all of the time, but nothing to that extent.


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 13, 2004)

rrgg said:
			
		

> Maybe I should sell canned air at a supplement store.  After all, it has a value of $10 to $20.  Besides it must work better than tribulus right Max?



it would have to be HOT AIR  if it was coming from you...  

now that is just a joke as i don't consider you to be an idiot or full of blarney at all.


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## Arnold (Aug 13, 2004)

madden player said:
			
		

> I'm going to disagree...I have used Tribulus sups in the past and found it to be a super powerful aphrodisiac...


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 13, 2004)

you know, its funny that you should mention selling cans of air: a store in a local mall was doing just that.  14.99 for a can of fresh air.   unbelievable really but i was told that they were selling quite a number of them.


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 13, 2004)

rrgg,  i don't get my panties ( they are pink thongs in case yall are wondering ) all wadded up when people don't address my questions.  I ain't special.  Bob doesn't bother addressing any of the issues that I have mentioned and I really don't care if he does.   a person has no obligation to respond to anyone.  

madden-  i am probably a non-responder to tribulus.   perhaps when i get older or things slow down, then i will resort to tribulus.  I prefer the andro patch myself- now that was incredible.!!!   
that was the best aphrodesiac apart from sex itself.  in that regard, if people would get off this board, and out of the gym and into meeting people, having sex or the potential of sex or the thrill of the flirt  would be the best "natural " testosterone enhancer I know!


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## rrgg (Aug 14, 2004)

It's funny, Max, how I post a message, an attempt at humor actually,  and then you respond 4 times.    I figure maybe you're done now?  

Yeah, if you make a claim in the *discussion* forum, I don't think it's unreasonable to field decent questions about it and respond to them.  

Thanks though for answering one no one asked -- about a null hypothesis.   Fortunately, that fantastic link you provided already addressed studies on the tribulus null hypothesis: 



> my sources etc; www.google.com



Like I said, I got it.  You do not like tribulus. It did not work for you.  It's not worth the money.  It's not worthless.  You'll not deny that it works.  You'll not claim it doesn't work.  How helpful...  

Sorry for asking questions.


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## thejames (Aug 14, 2004)

Luke, Neil Boortz is a libertarian, not a republican. Do you read anything? I think I gathered why you think Kerry is the lesser of two evils though, your right I was reading what you said wrong. Kerry won't take vacations, can annunciate words at critical times, and I suppose like Gore would have "pursued" technology. All seem valid reasons to me, who was I to doubt that you had valid reasons? Where do you get that Gore would have pursued technology, anyways, is it because you believe he invented internet?


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## Luke9583 (Aug 15, 2004)

thejames said:
			
		

> is it because you believe he invented internet?


   I really think it meant to come out more like "re-invented" the internet, but yes.  He was always a huge proponent of advancing the uses of it .


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## busyLivin (Aug 15, 2004)

madden player said:
			
		

> I'm going to disagree...I have used Tribulus sups in the past and found it to be a super powerful aphrodisiac...I was in my young 20's and I would day dream about sex like I was a horny 13 yr old virgin during puberty



Me too... Been taking trib for about a week & think I might have to start  duct-taping the sucker to my leg before going out.


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## MarcusMaximus (Aug 15, 2004)

taping it to your leg?

i have to duct tape mine to my knee!!  and I ain't using trib..


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## Luke9583 (Aug 15, 2004)

I have weird, 'sexually focused' dreams while taking a decent sized dose.


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## thejames (Aug 15, 2004)

Gore during an interview with Wolf Blitzer on CNN's "Late Edition" program on 9 March 1999. When asked to describe what distinguished him from his challenger for the Democratic presidential nomination, Senator Bill Bradley of New Jersey, Gore replied (in part): 


During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system. -- Al Gore


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## Luke9583 (Aug 15, 2004)

You sure know your stuff man.

At least he didn't say 

_" We have proof that Saddam has possession of weapons of mass destruction. "_


But I guess you could retaliate with 

_"I did not have sexual relations with ms. Lewinsky "_

_I really dislike talking politics as much as talking about religion.   _

_Honestly, I feel both are evil because they both spend more money on a 10 second tv spot to bash their oponent, than I spend on a years tuition.  And I work very hard to put myself through school.  (while both of them raise my tuition)_

_If either of them were exceptional human beings worthy of running a country, they would spend that money letting us know why they deserve our vote; not why we shouldn't vote for their competition._


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## Arnold (Aug 15, 2004)

interesting thread, some are discussing Tribulus, while the others are discussing politics.


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## thejames (Aug 15, 2004)

The UN was the first to say Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. In a report byHans Blix, the chief UN weapons inspector, on January 28, 2003 to the UN:

"Chemical Weapons

The nerve agent VX is one of the most toxic ever developed.

Iraq has declared that it only produced VX on a pilot scale, just a few [metric] tons and that the quality was poor and the product unstable. Consequently, it was said, that the agent was never weaponized. Iraq said that the small quantity of agent remaining after the Gulf War was unilaterally destroyed in the summer of 1991.

UNMOVIC, however, has information that conflicts with this account. There are indications that Iraq had worked on the problem of purity and stabilization and that more had been achieved than has been declared. Indeed, even one of the documents provided by Iraq indicates that the purity of the agent, at least in laboratory production, was higher than declared.

There are also indications that the agent was weaponizied. In addition, there are questions to be answered concerning the fate of the VX precursor chemicals, which Iraq states were lost during bombing in the Gulf War or were unilaterally destroyed by Iraq.

I would now like to turn to the so-called "Air Force document" that I have discussed with the Council before. This document was originally found by an UNSCOM inspector in a safe in Iraqi Air Force Headquarters in 1998 and taken from her by Iraqi minders. It gives an account of the expenditure of bombs, including chemical bombs, by Iraq in the Iraq-Iran War. I am encouraged by the fact that Iraq has now provided this document to UNMOVIC.

The document indicates that 13,000 chemical bombs were dropped by the Iraqi Air Force between 1983 and 1988, while Iraq has declared that 19,500 bombs were consumed during this period. Thus, there is a discrepancy of 6,500 bombs. The amount of chemical agent in these bombs would be in the order of about 1,000 [metric] tons. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, we must assume that these quantities are now unaccounted for.

The discovery of a number of 122 mm chemical rocket warheads in a bunker at a storage depot 170 km southwest of Baghdad was much publicized. This was a relatively new bunker and therefore the rockets must have been moved there in the past few years, at a time when Iraq should not have had such munitions.

The investigation of these rockets is still proceeding. Iraq states that they were overlooked from 1991 from a batch of some 2,000 that were stored there during the Gulf War. This could be the case. They could also be the tip of a submerged iceberg. The discovery of a few rockets does not resolve but rather points to the issue of several thousands of chemical rockets that are unaccounted for.

The finding of the rockets shows that Iraq needs to make more effort to ensure that its declaration is currently accurate. During my recent discussions in Baghdad, Iraq declared that it would make new efforts in this regard and had set up a committee of investigation. Since then it has reported that it has found a further four chemical rockets at a storage depot in Al Taji.

I might further mention that inspectors have found at another site a laboratory quantity of thiodiglycol, a mustard gas precursor.

Whilst I am addressing chemical issues, I should mention a matter, which I reported on 19 December 2002, concerning equipment at a civilian chemical plant at Al Fallujah. Iraq has declared that it had repaired chemical processing equipment previously destroyed under UNSCOM supervision, and had installed it at Fallujah for the production of chlorine and phenols. We have inspected this equipment and are conducting a detailed technical evaluation of it. On completion, we will decide whether this and other equipment that has been recovered by Iraq should be destroyed.

Biological Weapons

I have mentioned the issue of anthrax to the Council on previous occasions and I come back to it as it is an important one.

Iraq has declared that it produced about 8,500 liters of this biological warfare agent, which it states it unilaterally destroyed in the summer of 1991. Iraq has provided little evidence for this production and no convincing evidence for its destruction.

There are strong indications that Iraq produced more anthrax than it declared, and that at least some of this was retained after the declared destruction date. It might still exist. Either it should be found and be destroyed under UNMOVIC supervision or else convincing evidence should be produced to show that it was, indeed, destroyed in 1991.

As I reported to the Council on 19 December last year, Iraq did not declare a significant quantity, some 650 kg, of bacterial growth media, which was acknowledged as imported in Iraq's submission to the Amorim panel in February 1999. As part of its 7 December 2002 declaration, Iraq resubmitted the Amorim panel document, but the table showing this particular import of media was not included. The absence of this table would appear to be deliberate as the pages of the resubmitted document were renumbered.

In the letter of 24 January to the President of the Council, Iraq's Foreign Minister stated that "all imported quantities of growth media were declared". This is not evidence. I note that the quantity of media involved would suffice to produce, for example, about 5,000 liters of concentrated anthrax.

Missiles

I turn now to the missile sector. There remain significant questions as to whether Iraq retained SCUD-type missiles after the Gulf War. Iraq declared the consumption of a number of SCUD missiles as targets in the development of an anti-ballistic missile defense system during the 1980s. Yet no technical information has been produced about that program or data on the consumption of the missiles.

There has been a range of developments in the missile field during the past four years presented by Iraq as non-proscribed activities. We are trying to gather a clear understanding of them through inspections and on-site discussions.

Two projects in particular stand out. They are the development of a liquid-fueled missile named the Al Samoud 2, and a solid propellant missile, called the Al Fatah. Both missiles have been tested to a range in excess of the permitted range of 150 km, with the Al Samoud 2 being tested to a maximum of 183 km and the Al Fatah to 161 km. Some of both types of missiles have already been provided to the Iraqi Armed Forces even though it is stated that they are still undergoing development.

The Al Samoud's diameter was increased from an earlier version to the present 760 mm. This modification was made despite a 1994 letter from the Executive Chairman of UNSCOM directing Iraq to limit its missile diameters to less than 600 mm. Furthermore, a November 1997 letter from the Executive Chairman of UNSCOM to Iraq prohibited the use of engines from certain surface-to-air missiles for the use in ballistic missiles.

During my recent meeting in Baghdad, we were briefed on these two programs. We were told that the final range for both systems would be less than the permitted maximum range of 150 km.

These missiles might well represent prima facie cases of proscribed systems. The test ranges in excess of 150 km are significant, but some further technical considerations need to be made, before we reach a conclusion on this issue. In the mean time, we have asked Iraq to cease flight tests of both missiles.

In addition, Iraq has refurbished its missile production infrastructure. In particular, Iraq reconstituted a number of casting chambers, which had previously been destroyed under UNSCOM supervision. They had been used in the production of solid-fuel missiles. Whatever missile system these chambers are intended for, they could produce motors for missiles capable of ranges significantly greater than 150 km.

Also associated with these missiles and related developments is the import, which has been taking place during the last few years, of a number of items despite the sanctions, including as late as December 2002. Foremost amongst these is the import of 380 rocket engines which may be used for the Al Samoud 2.

Iraq also declared the recent import of chemicals used in propellants, test instrumentation and, guidance and control systems. These items may well be for proscribed purposes. That is yet to be determined. What is clear is that they were illegally brought into Iraq, that is, Iraq or some company in Iraq, circumvented the restrictions imposed by various resolutions."

Keep trying Luke, you almost got one. Based on the information the Bush administration had at the time war was declared, going into Iraq to disarm them was not a lie. Also if your going to vote for Kerry, he said this week, knowing what we know now I would still approve the war.


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## busyLivin (Aug 15, 2004)

MarcusMaximus said:
			
		

> taping it to your leg?
> 
> i have to duct tape mine to my knee!!  and I ain't using trib..



showoff 

The one I've been taking is only 40% Furostanol Saponins.. maybe if I get rob's 80% I be able to reach my knee, too.


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## Luke9583 (Aug 15, 2004)

thejames said:
			
		

> Keep trying Luke, you almost got one. Based on the information the Bush administration had at the time war was declared, going into Iraq to disarm them was not a lie. Also if your going to vote for Kerry, he said this week, knowing what we know now I would still approve the war.


To what extent though? Not all wars are equal. Two separate presidents will most deffinately fight them differently. For example, would Gore have employed Cheney's business to fuel our troops?

Regardless, I did see Kerry and Heinz on LKL. And what Kerry said about the war, and the intelligence they had at the time went something along the lines of ....

_"after seeing the sources of the information intelligence had receieved, he would have dissmissed it, knowing that their was a high probably it shouldn't be trusted"_

But, hind sight is always 20/20.  We will never know everything.  But since this is a close one for me, I will most deffinately be glued to the debates, and make an effort to not let things like the "swift boat vets" phase me.  What a joke that turned out to be.


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## thejames (Aug 15, 2004)

It wasn't Larry King Live. It was a direct question asked by the Bush administration, which Kerry answered yes he would have given Bush the authority to go to war. 

http://www.kerryoniraq.com/

It is 12 minutes worth of Kerry himself speaking, flip flopping back and forth on the issues. It's pretty entertaining. It isn't anyone except John Kerry himself, his own words, showing the timeline of him of switching back and forth on his positions. Watch and learn, as Flipper changes his views on Iraq, repeatedly.

Anyone planning on voting for Kerry should watch this.


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## Luke9583 (Aug 15, 2004)

thejames said:
			
		

> It wasn't Larry King Live. It was a direct question asked by the Bush administration, which Kerry answered yes he would have given Bush the authority to go to war.
> 
> http://www.kerryoniraq.com/
> .


No James, *I* saw him on LKL. I was reffering to LKL. That is where I heard that quote . I might be stuborn, but i'm not delusional. 

That was an excellent video. Very well done, and probably pricey to make! _"Paid for by the REPUBLICAN national committee"._

The fact that he changes his mind, shows that he's cautious. War is deffinately something to be cautious about; especially when you don't of the UN backing you. I'm sure he would be more committed if he were in a more powerful position at the time (not to mention better informed). But, there is only one way to find out.

I find it humorous how the REPUB nat. committee has to spend so much money bashing others, but there are SO MANY George Walker jokes and stories floating around that the Dem's don't really have to put stuff like that together.

And dont try to tell me they don't have any material to focus on


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