# Gyno Advice



## pdog781 (Feb 8, 2011)

I feel like an idiot posting this but I cant stay in denial!--I am a week and a half into my cycle: 
week 1-12  Test E 250 mg Sat Am/ Tues PM
week 1-10  Deca   150 mg Sat Am/ Tues PM
week 1-4   Dianabol 25 mg ed
week 1-12  Aromasin 10mg eod
week 3-14  HCG  250 iu E4d
PCT Clomid 100/100/50/50
6 days into this cycle...the day after my 2nd pin I developed  a BB sized lump just under my left nip tender like a bruise. Now I have never had gyno. I have done multiple PH stacks...my first few with no PCT and a couple w/ 4 weeks nolva recovery. My first cycle was 12 weeks SUST/EQ last summer with a PCT of just Nolva. Though I never experienced any gyno I still put together a well thought out 2nd bulkin cycle w/ AI and HCG throughout...and BAM It appears to have hit me! I dont think this cycle is a very high dose and it seems WAY too early. One note : I didnt begin my AI until day 5 because my package was late! So I would like like some advice on my treatment of this matter. I have upped my Aromisin to 20mg a day and have added 10 mg of nolva to help. The BB size lump has grown to about the size of a small pea now. Any advice. I am weary about adding the nolva because of the deca but have heard mixed opinions on this...and I want to make sure this goes away. Last resort would be to get some letro....but will this method 20mg Aromasin/ 10 mg Nolva be enough? Thanks in advance


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## ANIMALHAUS (Feb 8, 2011)

A.) DO NOT run Tamoxifen is you are running Deca.  I have ALWAYS had luck with using Nolvadex on cycle if any gyno symptoms appeared, but I would never use it w/ deca.

B.) Do you know anything about letrozole or anastrozole?


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## SUPERFLY1234 (Feb 8, 2011)

like animal house said take letrozole, .5mg ed should do the trick


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## pyes (Feb 8, 2011)

you have developed gyno in 6 days but only started the aromasin yesterday......give the aromasin time to work before jumping to another AI.....give it a couple of days....it will go away with aromasin.

You can use nolva as long as the gyno is not prolactin induced.


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## pyes (Feb 8, 2011)

*NOLVA and 19NORS* 
permalink

Nolva with 19nors. Whats the TRUTH? - Anabolic Steroids, Bodybuilding Discussion Forums - Steroidology

For some reason over the last year or so, all i have seen on this board (as I don't visit others) is how devastating it is to use Tamoxifen with 19nors. Now, before we get into this, I don't wanna hear a bunch of parroted shit from people who have no experience with it. I have used Tamoxifen personally while using Deca and Tren and had no issues with the supposed problems that have said to arisen in the past year or so. I have also done loads of reading on it. So lets have a healthy debate shall we? Humdiddly, feel free to use all the big words you like... as long as I understand them. lol

Now, here is what my research tells me. Tamoxifen is a mixed ER agonist/antagonist. 

In some tissues, such as the endometrium (uterus), upregulation of the progesterone receptor would be expected, as the endometrium is very sensitive to estrogen. *This is where i believe there is confusion*.

In other tissues, such as the breast, Tamoxifen is an antagonist (blocks the ER). The progesterone receptor is synthesized in response to estrogen. So when the ER is blocked (in breast tissue), the progesterone receptor will also down regulate. This is what happens in cancer patients and we're no different.

Therefore, Tamoxifen will help reduce gyno even when using Tren or Deca, not make it worse.

Now, Tamoxifen will down regulate the progesterone receptor in breast tissue. Some "guru's" state Tamoxifen will up regulate the progesterone receptor and cause or lead to gyno. By either worsening estrogenic gyno or by itself. They, therefore, assume Tamoxifen CANT be used with Deca or Tren, but this is false.

Now, some of you may be confused about gyno. Maybe this will help. 

*You can get gyno (it seems) 3 ways. First off, from estrogen. Second, from progesterone alone, or progesterone making estrogenic gyno worse. And finally, from prolactin. *

Tamoxifen can be used to treat gyno from either Deca or Tren, whether it be from estrogen or progesterone. BUT Tamoxifen CANNOT treat prolactin induced gyno. But can treat estrogenic gyno or progestenic gyno (if that exists). 

Deca and Tren will both elevate PRL (Prolactin) levels (although, again debatable). Therefore, for PRL related sides, such as loss of libido, gyno and lactation (although not only from PRL), Caber, Prami or Dostinex need to be used.

You see, when people use Deca and Tren, they tend to use Testosterone too. So if they experienced gyno, it may be from estrogen, NOT from Deca and Tren and again, thus being OK to use Tamoxifen.

Basically, as progesterone is synthesised in response to estrogen, if you control estrogen, you essentially reduce progesterone sides as well. 

I hope that clears some confusion because you will NOT find a study stating Tamoxifen up regulates the progesterone receptor in breast tissue anywhere. I have never seen a case of gyno solely caused by PgR. It just seems impossible as the PgR is synthesized by the ER (Estrogen Receptor).

This is from bigcat's steroid profiles, which summarizes some of the above about nolvadex and 19-nor:

_"If indeed the overall yield of estrogen is so much smaller, and so is the rate of androgen receptor stimulation, how then is nandrolone so anabolic? The common belief is through a third receptor : the progesterone receptor. It has been concluded that both nandrolone2 and several of its metabolites3,4 do indeed activate the progesterone receptor and are altered by it. On the one hand progestagenic activity decreases the estrogen receptor concentration in some tissues, it also mediates estrogenic action in other tissues5. So while estrogenic side-effects are fairly uncommon with nandrolone use alone, they can indeed occur and the implications of nandrolone's activity as a progesterone indicate these potential side-effects aren't to be solved with an aromatase inhibitor alone (like Cytadren). As long as there is estrogen in the system (indicating a possible increase of the problem when stacked with another aromatizing compound) progesterone can agonize its effects. And since progesterone receptors are found in breast tissue and have been linked to the formation of milk ducts, progestagenic activity may aggravate possibly gynocomastia. So while such problems are rare, when they occur they aren't easily treated._

_It makes sense then that those particularly prone to the effects and side-effects of estrogen would take extra precaution. Blocking aromatase, considering the previous paragraph, would be a poor choice, but competitively inhibiting the estrogen receptor itself with clomiphene citrate (Clomid) or tamoxifen citrate (Nolvadex) might bring some relief since a large portion of progestagenic action is nullified if there is no circulating estrogen around, or if it is kept from being activated by the estrogen receptor." _

One last thing. This thread is not meant to sway anyone from using or not using Tamoxifen with 19nors. Some of you may get worse sides from adding Nolva to a Deca or Tren laden cycle, but saying everyone will is misinformation. 

As I have said a bilion times, everyone is different. For example, at the end of my cycling days all I took ever was a small amount of Aromasin. And I don't get gyno from even 1g of test a week. But that's me. I have just gotten a little peeved at seeing everyone say DON"T USE NOLVADEX WITH 19NORS OR IT WILL CAUSE PROBLEMS. 

Use should always be conducted following thorough research and then through trial and error. Yes, knowledge from others is great as a start, but you have to find out what works for YOU and only YOU!!!!!


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## james-27 (Feb 8, 2011)

Brother I'd bump your  Aromasin to 12.5mg ED or 25mg EOD what every is easier for ya. I'm going to run Deca in my next cycle. Like said above do not use any nolva while using Deca, Clomid only.


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## pdog781 (Feb 8, 2011)

james-27 said:


> Brother I'd bump your  Aromasin to 12.5mg ED or 25mg EOD what every is easier for ya. I'm going to run Deca in my next cycle. Like said above do not use any nolva while using Deca, Clomid only.


I already bumped it to 20 mg ed...too much?


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## pdog781 (Feb 8, 2011)

ANIMALHOUSE said:


> A.) DO NOT run Tamoxifen is you are running Deca.  I have ALWAYS had luck with using Nolvadex on cycle if any gyno symptoms appeared, but I would never use it w/ deca.
> 
> B.) Do you know anything about letrozole or anastrozole?


I was originally going to run .25 mg of arimidex but it fell short. And I was happy to go with the aromasin instead. Letro Ive heard of but seems harsh and would only use if the exemestane doesnt work


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## pdog781 (Feb 8, 2011)

pyes said:


> you have developed gyno in 6 days but only started the aromasin yesterday......give the aromasin time to work before jumping to another AI.....give it a couple of days....it will go away with aromasin.
> 
> You can use nolva as long as the gyno is not prolactin induced.


Alright thanks...I started the aromasin on the 5th day...then noticed the gyno symptoms on the 6th day. I have now been on aromasin for 1 week and have been at 20 mg ED for the last 5 days. The Gyno symptom has been with me for 6 days now. I am certain this was brought on by the Dbol...so I will give the aromasin a few more days to work. Does the lump and tenderness just disappear one day?


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## pyes (Feb 9, 2011)

Yeah man, I personally use arimidex. When my nips get itchy and tender, i use the arimidex....with in 4 days...its gone.


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## ACHILLE (Feb 9, 2011)

drop the dbol dose if the above isnt working...not sure how else you wuold be getting gyno so quickly


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## ACHILLE (Feb 9, 2011)

i have the same problem w. dbol


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## pdog781 (Feb 10, 2011)

ACHILLE said:


> drop the dbol dose if the above isnt working...not sure how else you wuold be getting gyno so quickly


Man I am only doing 25mg though...Good idea I will at least drop to 20. I am certain its the dbol...as this is my first time with the stuff. Its great but the gyno thing is kind of annoying.


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## ACHILLE (Feb 10, 2011)

pdog781 said:


> Man I am only doing 25mg though...Good idea I will at least drop to 20. I am certain its the dbol...as this is my first time with the stuff. Its great but the gyno thing is kind of annoying.


 

IF the above doesnt work within 5 days... drop the d- dose. 


I had the SAME exact problem with dball...I developed a lump under my nipple in 8th grade. (naturally-dont as me how) Than as a senior i did a small anavar/winny cycle. After that I did some DBS and all of a sudden within 3 days of taking it i my nips started itching like crazy and blowing up- I took arimadex and it did not work-nothing did until i stopped the stuff.


After that experience I refused to take test or anthing harsh juice wise since than for fear of reigniting this lump- sucked- id love to do tren and test and that type of stuff

goodluck


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