# Natural Bodybuilders



## cjrmack (Oct 13, 2003)

I am curious, how many people on this board are "Natural Bodybuilders".


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## P-funk (Oct 13, 2003)

I am


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## prophet (Oct 13, 2003)

no supplements.. YET


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## icekool (Oct 13, 2003)

Whey concentrate & Isolate, Creatine, L-Glute' , MegaVitamins & Minerals and as good a diet as possible, drink maybe once or twice per year and would never do roids due to potential liver/kidney strain & the other bad side effects.......thats me


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## gopro (Oct 13, 2003)

A distinction can be made between natural and OTC (over the counter) bodybuilders. I would consider a natural bodybuilder one that uses nothing more than food, and maybe protein powders/vitamins. I consider an OTC bodybuilder one that used only supplements that are legal for sale in any health food store. Most people that call themselves "naturals," are really OTC's.


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## Arnold (Oct 13, 2003)

I agree, and I voted "Use other supplements, but not steroids", I assumed that includes supps like 1-AD, 4-AD, 1-Test, etc.


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## brian (Oct 13, 2003)

If you will classify 1-AD, etc as OTC surely I hope you will not classify Creatine as OTC then...    I think there should be a distinction.

I consider myself natural ... only protein powders although I am considering Creatine.


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## Arnold (Oct 13, 2003)

Why wouldn't we classify 1-AD as OTC? 

It is Over The Counter.


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## Tha Don (Oct 13, 2003)

I feel natural bodybuilders are BB who use whey, multivits, maybe a bit of creatine... glutamine... etc, products that occur naturally that they would get from food sources if possible but seeing they can afford it and don't have the time to just cook meals all day they supplement certain nutrition needs

I think someone who uses anabolic stuff and 1-ad, test... etc is un-natural

I'd go for the "NatuOnly use vitamins and protein powders as supplements" but i feel they are allowed to use some other supplements as well like creatine, cla, efa's, maltodextrin etc

i'm sure you get where i'm coming from

peace


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## Arnold (Oct 13, 2003)

well, that is the problem though, it's completely subjective. One could also argue that a bb that uses Creatine is unnatural.


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## JerseyDevil (Oct 13, 2003)

I would have to say that using 1-AD or 1-test would fall squarely in between natural and un-natural.  After all, legal or not, they ARE steriods, so it would be hard to call a user 100% natural.  On the other hand, if a bodybuilder is pegged an not natural it is generally assumed they are hard core juicers.


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## gopro (Oct 13, 2003)

Interestingly, a bodybuilder on a cycle of 1-AD or 1-Test would more than likely NOT flag a drug test for steroids, but a guy on pharmaceutical "gear" would.


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## maniclion (Oct 13, 2003)

If ya wanna get serious, a pure natural bodybuilder would eat free-range meat, organic foods, take no supps at all, drink water from a mountain spring with no chemical pollutants nearby, he/she would lift stones and deadlift logs(no manufactured weights) etc.etc.

Oh and he/she wouldn't be able to breath our air due to all the pollutants.


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## maniclion (Oct 13, 2003)

On the other hand we are a naturally occuring animal on Earth and anything we make would thus be naturally occuring, just as we consider a bee hive, honey or ant hill natural.  Therefore what we create is ultimately natural.  Everything we make contains something from our planet.  We don't import odd ball stuff from Pluto do we, no it all comes from Earth.  Even if we did isn't our entire universe natural too?


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## gopro (Oct 13, 2003)

Lets not get too nuts now, LOL!


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## Mudge (Oct 13, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by maniclion *_
> On the other hand we are a naturally occuring animal on Earth and anything we make would thus be naturally occuring



Beings pushing existing objects around into shapes compared to humans that extract and create from scratch are totally different. Ants reshape dirt into that hill, where we make anew what did not exist before, or in more often cases find ways to extract or reproduce things in un-natural amounts for consumption.

So we could call a burrito all natural perhaps because it comes from nature and we just put ingredients together, but creatine and 1-AD is hardly something we pulled off a tree and bottled.


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## ponyboy (Oct 14, 2003)

I know that at my last "natural" competition I knew there were people on stage who had used PH's and who had used AAS.  Having used PH's myself it would be very hypocritical of me to condemn those people, however those who talked about AAS use really pissed me off.  

One guy in the lineup right before we went on stage was talking about how he had come off of Winstrol 3 wks. ago and was taking thermos, etc. up until 3 days before the show.  

Unfortunately if you want to compete it is a fact that you HAVE to use these substances (PH or AAS) to even look respectable on stage next to everyone that is using them.  Hence the reason I am very hesitant about ever competing again because I really don't want to do that to my body.  Doing endurance sports like triathlon relies almost totally on your training and your nutrition...not performance or physique enhancers.


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## Twin Peak (Oct 14, 2003)

This just proves how stupid the term "natural" is in todays environment.


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## derekisdman (Oct 14, 2003)

And what do you consider natural twin peak?


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## Twin Peak (Oct 14, 2003)

I won't use the term, as I believe it is a silly and inappropriate term.

Is hormonally enhanced meat natural?

Is pharmaceutically separated protein?

How about creatine?

Inactive hormones that the body converts to active ones?

Active but legal steroids?

Illegal steroids?

Its just a silly term.


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## ponyboy (Oct 14, 2003)

I agree...there really is no such thing as a "natural" bodybuilder, person, athlete or whatever anymore.  The amount of chemicals and crap we ingest on a daily basis, even in the water we drink is staggering.  Then we make more chemicals to try to help us live longer because we are dying of cancers and diseases created by these chemicals in the first place.


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## gopro (Oct 14, 2003)

Thats it!!!!!!!!! I am starting a brand new bodybuilding association called WOTCBA or World Over the Counter Bodybuilding Association. Anything you can purchase in GNC or Vitamin Shoppe is legal for use. If a supplement is taken off the shelves, it is then banned for competition. Watch out Joe Weider!


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## derekisdman (Oct 14, 2003)

So technically if no one is natural, what shall those who don't use steroids be considered?


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## nikegurl (Oct 14, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by derekisdman *_
> So technically if no one is natural, what shall those who don't use steroids be considered?




ineligible for criminal prosecution?


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## Twin Peak (Oct 14, 2003)

Anabolically Challenged?


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## gopro (Oct 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by derekisdman *_
> So technically if no one is natural, what shall those who don't use steroids be considered?




OTC!!!


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## derekisdman (Oct 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> OTC!!!



Whats that stand for?


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## nikegurl (Oct 15, 2003)

over the counter


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## ZECH (Oct 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ponyboy *_
> I agree...there really is no such thing as a "natural" bodybuilder, person, athlete or whatever anymore.  The amount of chemicals and crap we ingest on a daily basis, even in the water we drink is staggering.  Then we make more chemicals to try to help us live longer because we are dying of cancers and diseases created by these chemicals in the first place.


BINGO!


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## Arnold (Oct 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by derekisdman *_
> So technically if no one is natural, what shall those who don't use steroids be considered?



how about no where near as big as those that do use steroids!


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## derekisdman (Oct 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> how about no where near as big as those that do use steroids!



I don't like that one, it seems like it justify's steriod use.  I'd have to go with anabolically challenged.


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## gopro (Oct 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> how about no where near as big as those that do use steroids!



But what about the "natural" guys that ARE as big or even bigger than some guys on steroids?


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## NickB (Oct 16, 2003)

Protein, creatine, glutamine, vitamins. 

I'm natural. Too scared to try steroids


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## P-funk (Oct 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> But what about the "natural" guys that ARE as big or even bigger than some guys on steroids?




I have seen a couple of big guys that are as big and maybe even bigger than some, very very few, guys on steroids.  But they still don't have the same look.  The guys of juice have a much fuller/harder look that the natrual guys just don't achieve.


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## Mudge (Oct 16, 2003)

Sometimes, many of the users in my gym are soft (water, no real guts), but they are friggin big.


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## gopro (Oct 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by P-funk *_
> I have seen a couple of big guys that are as big and maybe even bigger than some, very very few, guys on steroids.  But they still don't have the same look.  The guys of juice have a much fuller/harder look that the natrual guys just don't achieve.



I know I'm bigger and stronger than many of the juicers I train around and I've beat many of them in competition...thats why I'm always being accused of being on juice. And I am!!!! I love orange, grape, and apple


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## RedDragon (Oct 21, 2003)

Well I don't use any kind of supplements what so ever, and you ask why? Because they cost to damm much. lol If I could I would load up on protein, but I just don't have that option at the moment.


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## Darkkmind (Oct 21, 2003)

OTC all the way!


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## JerseyDevil (Oct 23, 2003)

Just a damn shame if Congress gets its way, many of those OTCs we have come to love will be illegal, or only available by scrip.


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## RedDragon (Oct 23, 2003)

I know man that's bullshit! Nobody shoot me if they feel different, but all the fuss about effedra (probably spelled wrong) is getting old.


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## MTN WARRIOR (Oct 25, 2003)

Hey Jersey Paul,

You said that 1-AD and Test 1 are steroids. I dont find that correct IAW everything I read.  They are steroid precursors.  It seems as if the line of what is a steroid is being blurred.  Creating, 1-AD or test, trib and andro are NOT steroids.  I once asked the question about if the supps i was taking were steroids and a bunch of people said yes.  I looked them up and found it not to be true.  Dont blur the lines people.


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## JerseyDevil (Oct 26, 2003)

The first paragraph of this article by David Tolson is one place where I saw the reference to 1-test being a steroid.  You are right about 1-AD being correctly called a precursor, but if it converts to a steroid once it passes through the liver, for all intents and purposes, it is a steroid. 


_1-Testosterone/1-AD Explained 
By David Tolson 

1-Testosterone (17beta-hydroxy-5alpha-androst-1-en-3-one) and 1-AD (1-androstenediol, 1-androstene-3beta, 17beta-diol) are probably the two most effective muscle building supplements presently on the market. 1-testosterone is a *steroid* that is closely chemically related to testosterone; it has a double bond at the 1 position whereas testosterone has a double bond at the 4 position. 1-AD is a 1-testosterone prohormone that is converted to 1-testosterone by the enzyme 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase. Unlike most other prohormones which are readily deactivated in the liver, 1-AD has significant oral activity._


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## MTN WARRIOR (Oct 26, 2003)

However, note how he calls it a steroid in the beginning, but a prohormone in the end.  1-AD is a precursor, not a steroid. It may turn into test once in the system, but that doesnt make it a steroid.  Anyone else have other info?


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## JerseyDevil (Oct 26, 2003)

That's because he is talking about two different substances.  You can buy compounds which are already 1-test and do not need conversion.  Examples would be VPX 1-test, and Avant Lab ONE and are considered prosteroids.  1-AD is a 1-test precursor, needs conversion and so is rightly called a prohormone.

So technically 1-test is a steroid, and you're right 1-AD is a precursor.


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## Lama (Oct 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> how about no where near as big as those that do use steroids!



How would Skip La Cour be classified? He passes urine <i>and</i> polygraph tests on a regular basis. And yet, at 5'11 and 247 pounds, he is bigger than all of the steroid users in my country.


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## Mudge (Oct 28, 2003)

Skips brother is like 6'5" and 270 pounds (does not lift a damn thing), so I'm willing to believe he is gifted, as for natural I really dont know. I have to admit I am wary of anyone claiming they are natural and looking like Skip does, but whoooooooo knows, there are some real freaks out there.


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## Arnold (Nov 20, 2003)

there are definitely genetic freaks out there and Skip might be one of them. these are guys that start lifting and blow up like balloons and you would swear they must be on steroids.


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## derekisdman (Nov 21, 2003)

Yeah but it's difficult to distinguish those who do and those who don't since the 90 % of users "aren't really using".


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## RedDragon (Nov 21, 2003)

OH Man! Derek that ID pic is friggen awesome!


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## MTN WARRIOR (Nov 22, 2003)

I am still not convinced that even 1-test is a steriod.  Correct me if I am still wrong, but a steroid is a "synthetic" version of certain hormones in the body, mimicked exactly.  Like Wiin-V, D-bol etc.  I have never seen 1-test listed.  IT is not the same as test, it falls short, so it cant be.  Any takers?


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## HoldDaMayo (Nov 22, 2003)

I would GLADLY trade in my natural body builder title for some 1-test and 4-Androstenadiol


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## IRONWARRIOR (Nov 22, 2003)

I don't call myself a natural bodybuilder maybe 'steriod free' but not natural we all put unatural stuff in our bodys.


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## gopro (Nov 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Lama *_
> How would Skip La Cour be classified? He passes urine <i>and</i> polygraph tests on a regular basis. And yet, at 5'11 and 247 pounds, he is bigger than all of the steroid users in my country.



Remember though that Skip only weighed about 200 lbs onstage in his last contest outing. That is about 50-70 lbs LESS than IFBB pros of the same height.


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## Rissole (Nov 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Why wouldn't we classify 1-AD as OTC?
> 
> It is Over The Counter.


So a natural body builder there is quite different to one in Oz, cause i cant buy that shit OTC.

Oh and im a natural BB


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## Mudge (Nov 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Interestingly, a bodybuilder on a cycle of 1-AD or 1-Test would more than likely NOT flag a drug test for steroids, but a guy on pharmaceutical "gear" would.



I've seen someone fail tests using some legal supplements


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## gopro (Nov 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> I've seen someone fail tests using some legal supplements



Oh it can happen, yes, but its pretty rare. Most tests are based on epitest:test ratios and most users will not go over the 6:1 standard that the test looks for with most prohormones. However, if a person already has high test levels or uses crazy amounts of PHs, than it is far more likely he will fail.


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## atherjen (Jan 27, 2004)

Im natural. use basic supplements but NEVER will touch steroids.


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## M.J.H. (Jan 27, 2004)

Gotta' disagree here. 1 and 4-AD, and most PH's are basically steroids. Most people can get steroid like gains from PH's anyway. I dont see why they're in a different category at all. 

Natural to me is anything that you can find in a healthfood store, with the exception of prohormones. Creatine, protein powder, vitamins, minerals, etc.


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## Flex (Jan 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MonStar *_
> Most people can get steroid like gains from PH's anyway. I dont see why they're in a different category at all.



NO WAAAAY bro. From my own experience, ph's are NOTHING like the real thing, not even remotely close.
Try a cycle, then you'll see for yourself


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## Arthur2004 (Jan 27, 2004)

i am also natural


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## squanto (Jan 27, 2004)

i consider myself natural... i eat "food". i take multivitamins but even that is iffy. what makes one extracted chemical any less natural than another extracted chemical. to me, if you use supplements you are unnatural. i believe the term "natural" is meant to be "legal". i disagree... i dont use any supplements not becuaes i think they are bad, they jsut dont seem to do anything for me, maybe i havent found the right ones... but i believe this is the only way to be completely natural. the term natural in today's BB world is absurd.


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## CowPimp (Jan 27, 2004)

I'm not going to get into the semantics of what is natural and what isn't.  You can consider me whatever you will.  I consider myself natural, but any poster could probably disabuse me of some technicality that would make me unnatural in someone's perspective.

I eat protein bars, brewer's yeast, a multivitamin pill, and a multimineral pill.  I am definitely considering getting some whey, or other, protein powder to supplement my protein intake more.


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## M.J.H. (Jan 28, 2004)

> NO WAAAAY bro. From my own experience, ph's are NOTHING like the real thing, not even remotely close.
> Try a cycle, then you'll see for yourself


What kind of PH cycle did you do? And what kind of anabolic cycle did you do? It seems that people who have done a trasdermal PH cycle get effects very similar to that of anabolics.

I mean when 1-test powder is available, etc. I think that's hardly a PH anymore---to me thats an anabolic. Both PH's and anabolics are horomones that you're putting into your body. Just my $.02.


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## gopro (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MonStar *_
> What kind of PH cycle did you do? And what kind of anabolic cycle did you do? It seems that people who have done a trasdermal PH cycle get effects very similar to that of anabolics.
> 
> I mean when 1-test powder is available, etc. I think that's hardly a PH anymore---to me thats an anabolic. Both PH's and anabolics are horomones that you're putting into your body. Just my $.02.



Forget 1-Test powder...with all the new methylated PH's available, we are really about 1 half step off the "real thing." Although, all PHs will be gone soon anyway and will end up sold in the same way steroids are...black market!


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## M.J.H. (Jan 28, 2004)

I hope so gopro, I think that they absolutely should be.


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## gopro (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MonStar *_
> I hope so gopro, I think that they absolutely should be.



Oh, they will...and that makes me happy actually!


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## M.J.H. (Jan 28, 2004)

Same here man. 

Have you ever dabbed into PH's or are you completely natural? Hormone / anabolic free?


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## builtincary (Jan 28, 2004)

I'm all natural. no juice for me.


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## gopro (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MonStar *_
> Same here man.
> 
> Have you ever dabbed into PH's or are you completely natural? Hormone / anabolic free?



Oh, I've done a few cycles of PHs, yes, however, I do not rely on them at all. My first PH cycle occurred after training for about 14 years on nothing but vitamins, protein powder, glutamine, and creatine. Right now I only use them whem testing a new product for VPX, but when they are gone, that won't be an issue anymore either.


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## Flex (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MonStar *_
> What kind of PH cycle did you do? And what kind of anabolic cycle did you do? It seems that people who have done a trasdermal PH cycle get effects very similar to that of anabolics.



Bro, they are NOTHING alike. 

Ph's dont put 10-15lb on you in 3 weeks and make your strength go through the roof.

i took 1-AD, and it was ok, but nothing like the real thing.


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## x~factor (Jan 28, 2004)

All natural here. No reason to try the _other_ stuff... yet.


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## maniclion (Jan 28, 2004)

You are not natural unless you hunt and gather your food every day, your workout consists of hauling firewood, dead animals, water or other things necessary for survival.  Because lifting weights isn't exactly a natural thing to do and buying your food at the store isn't either, even if it is organic.


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## gopro (Jan 29, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by maniclion *_
> You are not natural unless you hunt and gather your food every day, your workout consists of hauling firewood, dead animals, water or other things necessary for survival.  Because lifting weights isn't exactly a natural thing to do and buying your food at the store isn't either, even if it is organic.



And typing that response on your computer REALLY isn't natural! You should've sent this via smoke signals!! LOL!


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## M.J.H. (Jan 29, 2004)

> Bro, they are NOTHING alike.
> 
> Ph's dont put 10-15lb on you in 3 weeks and make your strength go through the roof.
> 
> i took 1-AD, and it was ok, but nothing like the real thing.


Hmm, I guess everyone's gains are different. Even if the gains are not the same, no one bases your natural status on how well your gains were on your cycle. The bottom line is that you have taken anabolics, and therefore are not considered natural. And in my eyes if you have taken prohoromones, youre not considered natural. Just my $.02.

Honestly, to me, personally, someone who has taken PH's may not be completely unnatural, but definitely close.


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## Flex (Jan 29, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MonStar *_
> The bottom line is that if you have taken anabolics, and therefore are not considered natural. And in my eyes if you have taken prohoromones, youre not considered natural. Just my $.02.



i agree with you 100%. 

but my point was that Ph's and steroids are not even apples and oranges. its more like apples and spaghettio's


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## M.J.H. (Jan 29, 2004)

Haha, yeah Flex I agree. The more I research the more I can definitely agree with you more and more. It just seems with the transdermal PH's and 1-test powder and M1T it would be closer and closer to anabolics.


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## gopro (Jan 29, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MonStar *_
> Haha, yeah Flex I agree. The more I research the more I can definitely agree with you more and more. It just seems with the transdermal PH's and 1-test powder and M1T it would be closer and closer to anabolics.



All of the new methylated PH/PS coming out are really so close to steroids that anyone who uses them is really putting their toes on the line that seperates PH from real gear.

That is why I coined the term OTC bodybuilder to more properly describe what most "naturals" truly are.


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## Arnold (Apr 24, 2004)

M1T is not close to being an anabolic steroid, it is.


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## OceanDude (Apr 25, 2004)

Hmm, must have missed the original thread and got woke up to it on the re-bump.

I consider myself ???Natural??? but can understand the reasoning Gopro uses in making the OTC distinction.

I use multi vitamins, multi species proteins, amino formulas (during workouts), isolated anti-oxidants (C, ALA, E etc.), isolated single aminos (glutamine, arganine), essential oil formulas as well as CLA, creatine, natural testos supporters (garlic pills), insulin inducers (maltodextrin, fast carbs or occasionally some cla/synthetic insulin booster products), occasionally a fat loss support systems (e.g. HOT Roxx, etc.) but usually green tea, liver tablets and lots and lots of ultra filtered water.

In my view this is all natural since everything except the fat loss systems are natural components found in normal foods but are more concentrated forms. I can get more beneficial results by eating less volume this way. The only thing that is grey area is creatine since a person would have to eat a truck load of grass fed beef to get this much naturally occurring creatine.

OD


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## OceanDude (Apr 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> All of the new methylated PH/PS coming out are really so close to steroids that anyone who uses them is really putting their toes on the line that seperates PH from real gear.
> 
> That is why I coined the term OTC bodybuilder to more properly describe what most "naturals" truly are.



gopro can you recommend any of these products? Are they safe? I do not want to do injections etc. but might want to consider an option since at my age my hormone production is starting to back off.

-OD


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## Johnnny (Apr 25, 2004)

I've always trained natural. I wasted about $1200 in 2000 on supplements thatw were garbage & didn't even produce some results.

I've been tempted by teammates & friends with steroids many times but turned them down consistantly.

Personally I think I'm an okay size & have some descent power for my natural size & height. I was about 10lbs heavier in 2001 with descent definition at around 227lbs at 5ft9 & had a 34inch waist (large hip bones) & never took steroids. I'm now about 210lbs with descent definition & power but not the same power I had before the ephedrine/ephedra supplements caused my hyper thyroid problems & lost about 25lbs in a month. 

I see guys that take steroids that are still smaller & weaker than myself & other buddies of mine who train completely natural. But I've come to terms that ppl will take steroids even recreationally just to be bigger/better. & we know there will always be someone who is bigger/better/faster & stronger than us. But the real question is how big & strong would ppl who use steroids actually be without them? I'm sure there will be some who are still strong & would hold good size but nothing like they would when they're on steroids.

I personally believe no offense to any steroid users here that my health is more important. We all know that steroids will have an negative effect on our health at some point in our lives. My buddy is having one now with increased blood pressure at 28yrs old as a direct cause from the juice as the doctor ran some tests to prove it. He never drank in huge dosages or did party drugs. He ate very well & had no family history of high blood pressure & always got enough sleep except for the occasional night or 2 a month.

I mean look at the late great Walter Payton of the Bears. It was known that he used a large amount of steroids. He died of liver cancer at the age of 45yrs old. What's one of the first things that steroids attack? The liver, & what happened to him at his young age for someone who is healthy is not normal.

Some of my friends don't want to accept that steroids are bad for your health, but now they're realizing as one of our friends is having strange high blood pressure which is caused by steroids. I've researched & read a lot into steroids & the effects they have.
One other friend quit last year because his b@lls had shrunk down to a the size of a pea & couldn't get it up. He had this problem even after cycles were finished & he almost lost his now fiance. Another friend went completely bald. I don't think it's worth it. 

A part of me really wanted to know how big & strong I could be with the right drugs. I was about 227lbs with already descent power/definition, I guess I could've gotten to 250 or 240lbs at my 5ft9 height. That would be huge at my height. But in the end it's not worth it.

But I won't tell you what to do as I'm not your mother or father.


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## Arnold (Apr 25, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> gopro can you recommend any of these products? Are they safe? I do not want to do injections etc. but might want to consider an option since at my age my hormone production is starting to back off.
> 
> -OD



OD I recommend that you read this thread: http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27368

as far as OTC supps, when you're talking about M1T and Methyl-D I don't care if they're still "legal", they are anabolic steroids and if you take them you are NOT natural.


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## gopro (Apr 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Robert DiMaggio *_
> OD I recommend that you read this thread: http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27368
> 
> as far as OTC supps, when you're talking about M1T and Methyl-D I don't care if they're still "legal", they are anabolic steroids and if you take them you are NOT natural.



So you no longer consider yourself "natural" Prince?


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## Arnold (Apr 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> So you no longer consider yourself "natural" Prince?



No, do you?

M1T is an anabolic steroid, it may be legal but that does not take away from that fact.


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## gopro (Apr 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Robert DiMaggio *_
> No, do you?
> 
> M1T is an anabolic steroid, it may be legal but that does not take away from that fact.



Never did really. I consider the use of caffeine, ephedra, usnic acid, T2, and even creatine non-natural. I call myself an OTC bodybuilder. I still compete in "natural" shows though, but abide by their banned list. I don't use prohormones too much anyway, but as soon as they are banned I am through with them as I will remain OTC unless I decided one day to completely "cross over."


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## Johnnny (Apr 26, 2004)

cool.


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## rockcrest (Apr 26, 2004)

this poll could have been simplified.  do you take steroids? 
no    
yes   


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## Arnold (Apr 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Never did really. I consider the use of caffeine, ephedra, usnic acid, T2, and even creatine non-natural. I call myself an OTC bodybuilder. I still compete in "natural" shows though, but abide by their banned list. I don't use prohormones too much anyway, but as soon as they are banned I am through with them as I will remain OTC unless I decided one day to completely "cross over."



that is just semantics, if we are speaking "natural" in terms of hormones, i.e. anabolic steroids, (that is typically what we mean when we use the term natural, not using caffeine and creatine), anyone that has used 1-Test, M1T or Methyl-D is no longer natural.

Now using prohormones, i.e. 1-AD & 4-AD, technically I think someone can still call themselves natural since PH's require a conversion before they're an active hormones, without the conversion they are useless.

Obviously we can debate this natural thing up and down, forwards and backwards and never conclude anything, but I think it's agreeable to say someone is natural if they do not use "anabolic steroids" (legal versions (M1T) or illegal versions), and if you've used creatine you're still considered natural.

From your posts I believe I remember you saying you have used M1T, 1-Test, etc. in your VPX testing, correct? If so, you're no longer natural, you can still say you're an OTC bodybuilder if that makes you happy, but not natural. You have now put real anabolic hormones into your body (not precursors) actual anabolic steroids, hence you're not natural.

At least that is how I define natural and I think most people would agree.


----------



## V Player (Apr 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Robert DiMaggio *_
> that is just semantics, .... but I think it's agreeable to say someone is natural if they do not use "anabolic steroids" (legal versions (M1T) or illegal versions), and if you've used creatine you're still considered natural...At least that is how I define natural and I think most people would agree.


Yup. 100%.

Just out of curiousity, besides the web, where can I find information on these anabolics you're talking about, Prince? Knowledge is power, I always say.


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## gopro (Apr 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Robert DiMaggio *_
> that is just semantics, if we are speaking "natural" in terms of hormones, i.e. anabolic steroids, (that is typically what we mean when we use the term natural, not using caffeine and creatine), anyone that has used 1-Test, M1T or Methyl-D is no longer natural.
> 
> Now using prohormones, i.e. 1-AD & 4-AD, technically I think someone can still call themselves natural since PH's require a conversion before they're an active hormones, without the conversion they are useless.
> ...



Nope, its not semantics at all since there are other compounds in the body that contribute in some way to muscle growth or fat loss. I consider caffeine, ephedrine, T2, yohimbine, usnic acid, prohormones, and prosteroids to be "unnatural" substances. If you want to argue "degrees" of non-naturalness, than you can go right ahead. Putting 25-30 g of creatine in your body cannot be accomplished naturally, and neither can the supraphysiological amounts of amino acids that are taken by some. A true "natural" eats food and trains...thats it. That is MY opinion and the way I view it...you can view it your way, and I, mine.

Now, as far a 1-Test goes, and its more potent methylated cousin, yes, many consider them anabolic steroids, and I will not argue it. However, I can still compete in several "natural" organizations and use products as long as they are OTC...therefore, according to them, both you and I and all the people that have used M 1-T and even regular 1-Test are still considered natural to some. So, it depends on how you look at it from many respects.

I am an OTC bodybuilder and will only use substances that can be purchased in a health food store, but will not use any substance banned by an organization that I compete with. AS long as you follow the rules, you are ok with me.


----------



## Burner02 (Apr 26, 2004)

I guess I am an OTC BB'er.
Been tempted to step up and try the 'real' stuff, but don't really wana.


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## Arnold (Apr 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Now, as far a 1-Test goes, and its more potent methylated cousin, yes, many consider them anabolic steroids, and I will not argue it.



many "consider" them anabolic steroids, is there any question? 

how else could they be classified?


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## gopro (Apr 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Robert DiMaggio *_
> many "consider" them anabolic steroids, is there any question?
> 
> how else could they be classified?



Trust me, most illegal steroid users think that the methyl PH/PS are not even in the same class. Not only do many of them not classify them as steroids, but they feel they are so weak compared to the "real" stuff that they are a waste of time.


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## Arnold (Apr 26, 2004)

I can see/believe that as far as injectables, but I have read numerous times (unbiased articles) that M1T has been reported to be at the same level as oral anabolics such as Dianabol & Anadrol.

Not true?


----------



## Mudge (Apr 26, 2004)

Hard to tell when only using it for 2 weeks, it works wickedly for some people, I would say it was not as good, for me at least.

I still have some left and I have very little motivation to use it.

I got very excited about it hearing how great it worked for other people, but even anadrol doesn't work for me like it does others. I get strength but I never, ever get any massive water retention or "size."


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## Johnnny (Apr 27, 2004)

I've tried those pro hormones & methyl supplements & I was luckly to get a couple of pounds from a 6 week supply.

A few of my friends who were & still are oral & injectable steroid users have also tried many of these types of supplements that you mention & they said these supplements were all sh!t compared to their pure anabolic steroids. They said they gained nothing from these supplements & wasted their money that could've been used for real anabolic steroids.


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## Arnold (Apr 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> I've tried those pro hormones & methyl supplements & I was luckly to get a couple of pounds from a 6 week supply.



Exactly which one(s), what brand, what dose, what stack?

What was your diet and training like on the cycle?

What exactly did you do for PCT?


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## Johnnny (Apr 27, 2004)

I don't remember as it was about 5yrs ago & I & my buddies the ones who've taken roids tried MANY DIFFERENT BRANDS FROM MANY DIFFERENT COMPANIES & our diets were clean & getting about 3 grams of protein per 1lb of body weight with several servings of complex carbs, vegetables & fruit & enough water throughout the day.

Although I've never used them but I & my friends who have used them, anabolic steroids are the only "supplements" that give real results that they are supposed to & worth your buck.


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## Arnold (Apr 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> I don't remember as it was about 5yrs ago..



ummm...then you certainly did not try any of the methylated prosteroids, and there is absolutely no comparison to what is out right now compared to the andro crap of 5 years ago.

1-Test, 1-AD, 4-AD, M1T, Methyl-D, even the NorAndros and 6-OXO, all WORK, and they work quite well.

I am sure not at the same level as illegal anabolics (I really would not know) but they definitely work.


----------



## Dale Mabry (Apr 27, 2004)

M1T gave more immediate results for me, but I am breaking PRs from the Test right now.


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## Johnnny (Apr 27, 2004)

Methyl-D, even the NorAndros and 6-OXO now that you list them I remember these 3 names we've all tried & had no results.

I personally had much better results training naturally with no supplements except for a good whey protein.

My friends who've used & still use steroids had only results from their anabolics.

I personally think they are a waste of money.


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## Arnold (Apr 27, 2004)

whatever you say Johnny. 

they did not exist 5 years ago, so apparrently you're full of shit.


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## Johnnny (Apr 27, 2004)

Did I say I took these particular ones 5 years ago? No I didn't. But the Norandros did exist 5yrs ago. One for example 19 Nordiol & there were other stacks.

I tried the 6-OXO this past fall & there was nothing, no results. I just wasted my money that I could've spent on whey protein or going out to dinner.

As for the 1-AD that doesn't work very well either a few buddies of mine tried it & got nothing. They took an anabolic cycle a few months after the 1-AD & they all gained some good results from the anabolics.


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## tucker01 (Apr 27, 2004)

Do you even know what 6-oxo is?


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## OceanDude (Apr 27, 2004)

uhm, johhny, 6-oxo is an anti estrogen prodruct (aramotase inhibitor). It's used after the cycle to prevent bitch tit and stuff like that. Not that I know a lot about this stuff nor support it at all mind you...
OD


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## Johnnny (Apr 27, 2004)

Yeah it's by Ergo-Pharm & it's used to help block estrogen while taking prohormones & after taking prohormones to help reset everything back to normal.

I took it while I was taking 1-AD by Ergo-Pharm & I took it after I finished the 1-AD & I had no results nor did my friends who use anabolics. They were pissed that they just spent around $200 Canadian on these 2 supplements & they had no results. They had to save money for almost 3 months before they could buy some real "supplements" if you know what I mean.


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## OceanDude (Apr 27, 2004)

Well bummer Johnny dude. Sorry you had such a bad experience and it set you back so far. Like I said, I don't use the stuff and don't promote what I consider "Cheats" anyway. But clearly there is a disconnect between what some report here and what others report. Either someone here is getting paid endorsements or someone is using the product in an unintended or ineffective way. 

Hmm, hope no one is taking these as a suppository rather than orally or we re going to have a monster-case of hemorrhoids going around here ???

-OD


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## Arnold (Apr 27, 2004)

No, actually I do not know what you mean, because all of the PH/PS's I have used all worked, some better than others.

You can go over to the supplement forum and read about the results members here have experienced using 1-AD, 4-AD, 1-Test, M1T and Methy-D, or you can go over to BulkNutrition.com's Forums and read the same there.

And they are real people, not your "fantasy friends" that you continue to refer to in every thread when you tell us how no supplements work and cause health problems. 

You like to pop into threads like this and go on and on about how no supplements worked and how you and all of your "friends" have either used them and said they do not work, or had the same health problems you did when taking them.

You're credibility is about as thick as a piece of silk paper.


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## Johnnny (Apr 27, 2004)

So you are saying I don't have friends? You don't know sh!t all about me or the ppl I know. You shouldn't criticise ppl you don't know at all. I've never critcised you about the ppl you know.

All I'm saying is that I have tried 1-AD combined with the 6-OXO & it did f^ck all for me. $200 down the drain. & I have friends who have been anabolic steroid users for several years or more, & they have all tried these supplements over the last 5yrs including the recent ones within the last 2 & they did sh!t. From their anabolic experience in comparision to these even newest supplements, they said the only thing they're good for is taking up space in your medicine cabinet. 

Although I've never experienced the results of pure anabolic steroids so I can't compare what my friends have experience, but I do know that none of these supplements worked. Like I said I had much better results without supplements.

As for health problems as a cause from supplements, the risks are there as myself & others I know or have met have developed hyper thyroid problems without ever having a prior thyroid condition from the ephedrine/ephedra supplements.

If a friend(s) of mine has tried a supplement & told me it didn't work at all & one other person says it does, I'm still not going to run out & waste $200 just because 1 individual says a particular supplement works.

That's how these companies get rich. They get rich off of ppl who think that a supplement is going to make them huge just becaus a pro bodybuilder who's been on steroids for years is in a picture holding the jar of the supplement & says I gained 20lbs. In my opinion most of these companies are laughing at the buyer as they've made their money & don't care if something works or is bad for your health.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 27, 2004)

I think there are a couple of questions that could be asked here:

1)Why are your friends paying double what most normal people pay.  My M1T and 6-oxo came to a total of $80, and that was when they were brand new.

2)If your friends have such easy access to steroids, why would they try PHs/PSs

3)When did you or one of your friends take Methyl D?


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## Arnold (Apr 27, 2004)

Dale Mabry, if you have read any of this guys other posts he just makes things up as he goes along...not worth replying to. 

You're right Johnny, pro-hormones and pro-steroids do not work, we are all experiencing nothing but placebo effects from them.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 27, 2004)

Oh, I know, I am the one who mostly challenges his bullshit.


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## Eggs (Apr 27, 2004)

I wonder if Johnny actually tries to sound this discontinuous in his postings.  I find his ramblings hard to stomach, they make me sea sick.


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## maniclion (Apr 27, 2004)

I realized who and what this reminds me of, Johnnny is a parody of G.W. Bush.  Claims he's a BB pumping the iron like Bush claimed he was a soldier that's been to war.  Makes false claims to discredit something and then fails miserably at covering his lies.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 27, 2004)

At least GW is funny and can laugh at himself.


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## OceanDude (Apr 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by maniclion *_
> I realized who and what this reminds me of, Johnnny is a parody of G.W. Bush.  Claims he's a BB pumping the iron like Bush claimed he was a soldier that's been to war.  Makes false claims to discredit something and then fails miserably at covering his lies.



Oh mani, I got the opposite reaction. With everyone jumping down his throat I thought it was more like monica (lewd)inski trying to entice him or force him to smoke something that was not good for his health but might not count as sex as long as he didn't inhale. Was it good for you too? 

I'll chant the popular mantra that I keep hearing on this forum "everyonr is entitled to his opinions (unless he don't agree with you )."

-OD


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## Eggs (Apr 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by maniclion *_
> I realized who and what this reminds me of, Johnnny is a parody of G.W. Bush.  Claims he's a BB pumping the iron like Bush claimed he was a soldier that's been to war.  Makes false claims to discredit something and then fails miserably at covering his lies.



Haha, that was stupid AND off topic Manic


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 27, 2004)

Friggin Bush.


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## Arnold (Apr 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> I'll chant the popular mantra that I keep hearing on this forum "everyonr is entitled to his opinions (unless he don't agree with you )."



Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but Johnnny's stories change post by post. 

First he took some PH that he does not remember 5 years ago, next he remembers exactly what it was, 1-AD, which I do not believe existed 5 years ago...etc., and of course it did not work.

And he always backs up his claims with all of these friends of his that convienently experienced the EXACT same thing as him when they took the supplement!


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## Johnnny (Apr 27, 2004)

I said I took 1-AD & 6-OXO last fall 2003. The other prohormones I took 5yrs ago I don't remember their name. That's what I said.

For 2 bottles of 1-AD a typical cycle costs about $120  plus tax Canadian & add the 6-OXO another $40 plus tax you're looking at about $180 Canadian. 

As for my buddies who are or were steroid users, sometimes at different parts of the year the supply of juice is low & sometimes they have to wait a few months before another supply of stuff comes in. So instead of waiting for the stuff they tried all this stuff that has just hit the market within the last couple of years & the stuff that was on the market 5yrs ago. None of the stuff worked for them. None of this stuff worked for myself.

I don't lie about anything or make anything up. I have no reason to. I'm only talking about experience from myself & the experiences of those whom I'm friends with & ppl I've met at the gym.


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## Arnold (Apr 27, 2004)

So, you say you did not get anything from 1-AD, very possible, 1-AD does not do much for me either. 

I prefer straight 1-Test, and I like to use transdermals over orals, preferably Dermabolics S1+, which is 1-Test and 4-AD. (btw 1-Test is what 1-AD gets converted to)

You cannot discount all PH's cause 1-AD did not work for you.


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## Arnold (Apr 27, 2004)

here is a whole list of reviews of people that used S1+

http://www.bulknutrition.com/product_reviews.php?products_id=816&manufacturers_id=86


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## Johnnny (Apr 27, 2004)

All I'm saying is I've tried many of these types of supplements & haven't had much luck with any of them which is why I think they are a waste of money.

One of my buddies who took 1-AD & 6-OXO didn't gain anything & had to stop after 5 days on it because his neck was starting to swell. That would be enough to turn me away from a product.

I've seen so many of these types of products in magazines with the jar being held by Markus Ruhl (who I had the pleasure meeting in Toronto when he was competing there in 2000) or by Ronnie Coleman or someone & they claim that they gained 20lbs of mass in 5 weeks. They use those guys because they're huge & ripped from real anabolic steroids. That's how they sucker ppl. I know as I was the same way when I was 18yrs old & even 20yrs old when I wasted $1200 Canadian on supplements such as these & other types which did f^ck all for me or others I knew that also tried them. 

I believe in a good whey protein & natural supplements such as flaxseed oil. Omega 3, Vitamin C, Glucosamine, Calcium & a good multi-vitamin. That's it that's all. I sure wish that steroids weren't bad for your health or cause other nasty side effects as I been on them 8yrs ago & I'd be around 245lbs very good condition with very good power/size/shape & 5ft9. I was already 227lbs with descent definition & power naturally before my thyroid problems caused by the ephidrine/ephedra. So I'm sure I could've gotten to at least 240lbs with juice. But I'm more concerned about my long term health. As I have one friend who's almost finished his last steroid cycle after 9yrs he is permanently quitting because of his high blood pressure due to the steroids.

But with that in my mind real anabolic steroids are the "supplements" that work.


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## Arnold (Apr 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> One of my buddies who took 1-AD & 6-OXO didn't gain anything & had to stop after 5 days on it because his neck was starting to swell. That would be enough to turn me away from a product.



So you and your buddy both took 1-AD and 6-OXO simultaneously....who told you to do that?


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## Johnnny (Apr 27, 2004)

One of my buddies started taking the 1-AD suggested that I try it as well. He also told me the guy at the supplement store told him to take 6-OXO after the 1-D


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## Eggs (Apr 27, 2004)

Was it a GNC?


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## nikegurl (Apr 27, 2004)

did you take it after or during and after?  (i think earlier you indicated you were taking it both during and after the cycle)


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## Johnnny (Apr 27, 2004)

No it was an independant store.

As for taking the 2, I started taking just the 1-AD alone but my buddy when he was picking up some protein from the same store the guy told him he should be taking the 6-OXO at the same time of the 1-AD & after. So I started taking the 6-OXO after 2 weeks into the 1-AD & then I bought more 6-OXO for after the 1-AD period.


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## maniclion (Apr 27, 2004)

Do you have proof of purchase?


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## Johnnny (Apr 27, 2004)

Why would I need proof of purchase?

& 2nd it was fall 2003 so no I don't. I don't have to prove to you that I took it & it didn't do sh!t.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 27, 2004)

So let me get this straight.  You went to a supplement store in Canada, where prohormones have been illegal for more than 3 years, walked up to the register, and they sold you prohormones.  Did you ask the guy at the register for any peyote or cocaine while you were there?  

Oh yeah, I believe this story.


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## maniclion (Apr 27, 2004)

Johnnny "No I went across the border to the U.S. to get it."

Everyone  Else "But you said you paid x amount in canadian dollars...."

Blah blah blah woof woof, you have been Punk'd


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## OceanDude (Apr 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Robert DiMaggio *_
> Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but Johnnny's stories change post by post.
> 
> First he took some PH that he does not remember 5 years ago, next he remembers exactly what it was, 1-AD, which I do not believe existed 5 years ago...etc., and of course it did not work.
> ...



Ah shucks Prince - since when did the concept of credibility become a pre-requisite to posting around here? Start raising the standards too high and there won't be anyone to have fun with as they all leave...

-OD


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## V Player (Apr 27, 2004)

LMAO!!!!
*everything that has happened on this page here*

........dejavu all over again.

Look guys, I realize I may be over staying my welcome here with this johnny business and if I am, I sincerely and humbly apologize to all of you. Its honestly NOT my intent to flame him or make his life miserable because I actually do feel for the guy. But everthing Prince said is true, and he does change things from post to post. Also what eggs said is true, his ramblings dont have a rhyme or reason and you're not sure exactly what you read just read.

In any case, this has all happened before in almost the exact same way. Making up accounts like Ricardo, Steve0007, S7, and now here with this "daddy" person, all who stick up for him and have similar experiences with the exact same thing(s). Arguing and belittling members when he was cornered with a lie.....oh hell, thats our dirty laundry, you dot need me to make a novel about it. But suffice to say that our site admin/owner over there couldnt control him and he had to kick him out.

The sad thing is that johnny really and truly does want to help. Im not being facitious or sarcastic, but he does have an awfully big heart and he's always there with advise and support. I have a feeling that he would make an excellent friend if he would only listen once in a while and accept that he's not always right. In other words, be a real friend. But sadly, he wont. Ive said it before and I'll say it again, we feel he is in reality a 13-16 year old and when one argues or tries to have a mature conversation with one like that, there can be only one outcome. 

So I guess what Im trying to say is: its happened before and its happening again. We're arguing with a wall. Walls dont listen. Yeah I know, it sounds like Im being hypocritical because Ive had my run ins with him here, but Im not trying to reason with him any more. I stepped up and asked Prince if I had crossed the line and if I needed any corrective action when I let him get to me at another thread, and his advise to me was to just not argue with him.  I heard that loud and clear, so Ive been staying away.

But anyways, where can I get some information on these products you guys are talking about? Ive checked the anabolic forums but either Im blind or Im just not looking hard enough. Thanks for the help.


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> Ah shucks Prince - since when did the concept of credibility become a pre-requisite to posting around here? Start raising the standards too high and there won't be anyone to have fun with as they all leave...
> 
> -OD



Yeah, and Albob would have to give up his Jackass throne and leave forever.


----------



## Johnnny (Apr 27, 2004)

Metal V Player again with your lies & pettiness. I see you don't have much of a life as you are going on & on & on about that other crap forum with your garbage. No one really cares. You were even told not to talk about the other forum here.

Metal V Player it sure seems to me you don't have many busy things going on in your life because if you did, you wouldn't be wasting your time on crap like this.

I however do have a busy life that involves work, my woman, the gym, a couple of computer night courses, & actual buddies to spend time with which is something I'm not sure you're familiar with.

So my life is very busy. I've said before & I'll say it again, I don't have time nor would I waste time running around the city from computer to computer making up fake accounts & other BS. Sorry to say dude but my friends joined that sh!t forum out of curiosity to see all the BS the stupid head moderator over there allowed. In my opinion immaturity is a disease & you really need medical attention Metal V Player. So just give it up dude. You are so petty & waste time on stupidities. Maybe you spend your time in more productive ways like work or hitting the gym.

As for this "Daddy" person it's not me at all. Nor is this "S7" you speak of.

Do you really think you are making my life miserable? Who are you? I'd like to know what you're on & share some with the rest of us.

Dale Mabry here in Canada believe it or not, there are several supplement stores that sell all the pro hormones even if they're banned. They have a supplier. They even can get real steroids for ppl who want them.

maniclion Normally ppl buy 2 bottles at a time which come out to around $120 plus tax, then you have to buy enough 6-OXO which is about $40 Canadian plus tax. Do the math.


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## V Player (Apr 27, 2004)

Johnny Im on ON Pro Complex, EAS Precision Protein, and 100% Eggwhite Protein. I believe you can find them most anywhere, but I get them at The Vitamin Shoppe. If you dont have a reliable supplier for these, PM me and I'll hook you up.


Can anyone tell me about these 1-Test, 1-AD, and all the others that have been talked about? Or just tell me where I can find some non sales related info about them.


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## PreMier (Apr 27, 2004)

Look at the prohormone stickies in the supplement forum


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## V Player (Apr 27, 2004)

Ohhhhh...... So thats what they are. My bad, but a bowling ball knows more about anabolics than I do. Thanks Premier.


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## PreMier (Apr 27, 2004)

Damn, I just looked over that.. you have a lot of fukin reading haha


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## V Player (Apr 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by PreMier *_
> Damn, I just looked over that.. you have a lot of fukin reading haha


No prob, I work from home. And all I do is workout, read, watch WWE and golf on TV and hang with my lady. Cool thing she likes the exact same things. I have a home made gym out back too.


----------



## PreMier (Apr 27, 2004)

Lucky bastard!


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## Arnold (Apr 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Metal V Player *_
> I stepped up and asked Prince if I had crossed the line and if I needed any corrective action when I let him get to me at another thread, and his advise to me was to just not argue with him.  I heard that loud and clear, so I've been staying away.



Looks like I need to take my own advice, cause I am going in circles with this guy. 

as Premier said I made a sticky in the supplement forum that has A LOT of info on PH's.


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## Burner02 (Apr 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Metal V Player *_
> I have a home made gym out back too.


sweet! I made a home gym in the edroom for my lady and I....but it is mainly for cardio....funny..it looks exactly like..a...bed...


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## V Player (Apr 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Burner02 *_
> I made a home gym in the edroom for my lady and I....but it is mainly for cardio....funny..it looks exactly like..a...bed...


LMever-so-lovin-caramel-coloredMFAO!!!!!!!!.....Ima use that one on my lady. I take care of her very well. Always make sure she has plenty of protein in her diet and a nightly serving of Sir Loin. Its her favorite.

Yeah PreMier, she likes everything I do, has 36dds, looks like Melanie Jagger, works out, likes Kung Fu theater, and likes WWE even more than me.  And the Lord sayeth unto Julian "I shall bless thee in abundance!!! So let it be written, so let it be done."

I made my gym from used weights and stuff you find at garage sales. Fat people always have used exercise equipment for sale. Brand new too. 

Thanks for the ups on the prohormone threads, guys, Im readin as we speak.


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## Arnold (Apr 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Metal V Player *_
> Thanks for the ups on the prohormone threads, guys, Im readin as we speak.



Just remember none of that stuff really works, and your neck might swell up!


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## V Player (Apr 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Robert DiMaggio *_
> Just remember none of that stuff really works, and your neck might swell up!


I thought the only thing that would swell would be the bruise to my ego whenever someone bigger stepped in my sandbox and called me a liar? No wait.....thats only if I TAKE them, then FORGET I took them, then REMEMBER that I took them only I forgot the name and date.

I dont know, I forget.


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## Burner02 (Apr 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Metal V Player *_
> LMever-so-lovin-caramel-coloredMFAO!!!!!!!!.....Ima use that one on my lady. I take care of her very well. Always make sure she has plenty of protein in her diet and a nightly serving of Sir Loin. Its her favorite.
> 
> Yeah PreMier, she likes everything I do, has 36dds, looks like Melanie Jagger, works out, likes Kung Fu theater, and likes WWE even more than me.  And the Lord sayeth unto Julian "I shall bless thee in abundance!!! So let it be written, so let it be done."
> ...



glad you like dit..

Your brand new equipment reminds me of a commercial for a 'play it again sports' shop we have here. (used and consigned sports store)
Their one phrase is:
"Our weights are cleaned and pressed daily"


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## MissOz (Apr 27, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by ponyboy *_
> I agree...there really is no such thing as a "natural" bodybuilder, person, athlete or whatever anymore.  The amount of chemicals and crap we ingest on a daily basis, even in the water we drink is staggering.  Then we make more chemicals to try to help us live longer because we are dying of cancers and diseases created by these chemicals in the first place.




Ahh for goodness sake !!!you either a. TAKE DRUGS or you b. DONT TAKE DRUGS it's pretty simple to work out ?


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## nectron101 (Apr 28, 2004)

I use fat burners, protien shakes and Amino Acids..

I'm natural <---- SAY NO TO STEROIDS!


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## Johnnny (Apr 28, 2004)

I'm not going to tell any of you what to do. If you want to spend your on supplements that you think is working.

But I highly doubt that any of these things will even give you 5lbs of muscle in 6 weeks & typical time period. There are many ppl who only gain 5lbs of muscle in 6 weeks from a steroid cycle & they're lucky to keep all of it. There are others who gain 20 or more pounds from a mass building anabolic steroid cycle & are lucky to keep all of it or half of it after the cycle.

From my experience & the experience I know or have met who've tried all of these supplements from 5yrs ago & the ones mentioned in this thread, you'd be lucky to gain 3lbs in 6 weeks from any of these supplements. Plus the ppl I know & myself who did take 1-AD &/or 6-OXO had trouble getting it up south of the border & things didn't return to normal until 2 weeks after we stopped the supplement.

In my mind anabolic steroids are the only "supplements" that work & do what they are supposed to do.

I'm personally done wasting money on supplements that don't work or only give 3lbs in 6 weeks. It's not worth my $200. But you guys do want you want. If you blow up 25lbs more ripped to shreds on this stuff than that's great for you.

As for the neck swelling, I've read some cases November 2003 on the internet about this happening to some users. I've tried finding the information, but the page can't be displayed. I guess the sites down.

In my mind the companies that make this stuff are getting rich from you & laughing at their customers buying their supplements just because Ronnie Coleman a big time anabolic steroid user is hold the supplement jar & there's writing next to him saying he gained 20lbs from rip in 6 weeks. That's how they make their money buy using pro bodybuilders who've been on anabolics & growth hormone/insulin stack for years. But do what you will.


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## Arnold (Apr 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> But I highly doubt that any of these things will even give you 5lbs of muscle in 6 weeks & typical time period.



Doubt it all you want, but me and numerous other people can attest to the fact that the current PH's on the market can & will give you those types of gains. I have personally experienced them, and so have many others right here on this board.

In fact, many people gain 10+ pounds on an 2 week M1T cycle, and 10-15lbs on a 4 week S1+ cycle. If PCT is done correctly 70-80% of all gains are kept.


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## V Player (Apr 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> I'm not going to tell any of you what to do. If you want to spend your on supplements that you think is working.


Interesting, Prince. So those muscles you have in your PICTURES you post are all from a placebo effect because they obviously dont work. Outstanding!! And its a good thing you have someone who is kind enough to inform you that they dont work so you arent spending your money foolishly, I mean, you can tell by your muscles and competition photos that they dont work.





> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_In my mind


Truer words have never been spoken


> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_In my mind


No need to repeat, we ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE IT!


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## gopro (Apr 28, 2004)

IT ALL DOESN'T MATTER CAUSE I JUST GOT WORD THAT EVERY SINGLE PH AND PS IS BEING PULLED FROM STORE SHELVES AND INTERNET SITES BY THE FDA AND DHEA BY TOMORROW...ITS ALL OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

See next post for details...


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## gopro (Apr 28, 2004)

...just playin


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## Arnold (Apr 28, 2004)

I was about ready to place a very large order!


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## Dale Mabry (Apr 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> There are many ppl who only gain 5lbs of muscle in 6 weeks from a steroid cycle & they're lucky to keep all of it.




Right, and they are called women.  

Jus playin wit ya.


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## Johnnny (Apr 28, 2004)

If you some of you ppl believe that they give steroid like gains & don't have a negative effect on your health than go ahead & spend your money.


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## CowPimp (Apr 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> If you some of you ppl believe that they give steroid like gains & don't have a negative effect on your health than go ahead & spend your money.



Johnnny, just stop.  Everyone knows you and your friend's experiences with these supplements.  No one cares anymore.  Of course they don't work for 100% of everyone who uses them.  However, you and your friends are in the minority.  Either that, or you didn't properly take them.  You cannot deny the countless other people who have experienced significant gains from them.  If you do, then you are just in denial because it didn't work for you.  I don't doubt they didn't work for you, but they can and do work for others.  You have to accept it.


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## Johnnny (Apr 28, 2004)

If you some of you ppl believe that they give steroid like gains & don't have a negative effect on your health than go ahead & spend your money.


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## gopro (Apr 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Robert DiMaggio *_
> I was about ready to place a very large order!



Thats why I put up the "just playin" post. Originally I was going to post "just kidding" later in the day, then I was like..."oh sh%t, what if people start spending tons of cash!"


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## Arnold (Apr 28, 2004)

hey Eric, since you brought it up...any news/updates on the PH banning at VPX HQ?


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## gopro (Apr 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Robert DiMaggio *_
> hey Eric, since you brought it up...any news/updates on the PH banning at VPX HQ?



Nothing solid. As you know androstenedione is banned, like we care, but thanks to some stupid people in this industry the gov't got tipped off to ALL the other PH/PS out there. Originally they only knew about a few. Since the FDA is not playing by the rules, at this point I THINK we are looking at a few months.


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## OceanDude (Apr 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Thats why I put up the "just playin" post. Originally I was going to post "just kidding" later in the day, then I was like..."oh sh%t, what if people start spending tons of cash!"



It's funny how human nature is. As soon as I read that post it was like omg I got to decide now or never. It might have compelled me to get off the fence even though my common sense says its not for me.

Nasty hoax gopro!
-OD


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## OceanDude (Apr 28, 2004)

Johnny, by the way, no matter what everyone else is saying I appreciate your contrarian perspective. Clearly you have nothing to gain personally by giving your warnings and seem to be suffering a lot of adversity for going against the popular view here. It would have been the easy path to just sit back, shrug it off and ignore it. But you hung in there. Persistence is a good bodybuilding quality. From my perspective, given the abuse here, you sincerely believe and care with all your heart that the things are not all that effective or not worth the trouble and cost. You have said your peace. But, like religion, people will believe what the HELL they want to believe no matter what is reasonable or true to you. And given the choice between water and fire a lot of the more idiotic people will jump head first into the fire just because it's their right to choose to do so and it makes them feel empowered (It's about the only time pissing on someone can be viewed as compassionate  ). Don't suffer yourself to understand why people will do things that make no sense to you. My only remaining advice would be to pick your fights. This is coming from a guy who almost never walks away from a challenge (or looses) - so do as I say not as I do.  A humorous and more effective long term strategy is to out live your enemies or impregnate their wives  . When people start losing all their hair and their gonads shrink up and they lose their cool due to the raging hormones and piss of their mates- it's an easy slam dunk to walk in and take the house. Just joking of course. 

But I think you can sync up on what I am saying.

Peace Bro.,
-OD


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## CowPimp (Apr 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> Johnny, by the way, no matter what everyone else is saying I appreciate your contrarian perspective. Clearly you have nothing to gain personally by giving your warnings and seem to be suffering a lot of adversity for going against the popular view here. It would have been the easy path to just sit back, shrug it off and ignore it. But you hung in there. Persistence is a good bodybuilding quality. From my perspective, given the abuse here, you sincerely believe and care with all your heart that the things are not all that effective or not worth the trouble and cost. You have said your peace. But, like religion, people will believe what the HELL they want to believe no matter what is reasonable or true to you. And given the choice between water and fire a lot of the more idiotic people will jump head first into the fire just because it's their right to choose to do so and it makes them feel empowered (It's about the only time pissing on someone can be viewed as compassionate  ). Don't suffer yourself to understand why people will do things that make no sense to you. My only remaining advice would be to pick your fights. This is coming from a guy who almost never walks away from a challenge (or looses) - so do as I say not as I do.  A humorous and more effective long term strategy is to out live your enemies or impregnate their wives  . When people start losing all their hair and their gonads shrink up and they lose their cool due to the raging hormones and piss of their mates- it's an easy slam dunk to walk in and take the house. Just joking of course.
> 
> But I think you can sync up on what I am saying.
> ...



My problem with Johnnny wasn't his opposing beliefs.  I do not, and will never, take steroids or hormones of any kind.  My problem with his statements is the fact that countless people have had positive results, and he not only expressed his negative experience with these products, but tried to discount other people's positive experiences.


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## Johnnny (Apr 28, 2004)

If you some of you ppl believe that they give steroid like gains & don't have a negative effect on your health than go ahead & spend your money.


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## V Player (Apr 29, 2004)

Hear that, Robert? You actually have clearance now.


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## gopro (Apr 29, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by OceanDude *_
> It's funny how human nature is. As soon as I read that post it was like omg I got to decide now or never. It might have compelled me to get off the fence even though my common sense says its not for me.
> 
> Nasty hoax gopro!
> -OD



ooops...sorry...LOL! Almost got a decision outta you huh?


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## PreMier (Apr 29, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> ooops...sorry...LOL! Almost got a decision outta you huh?



Scared me...  I almost pulled a "Prince" and splurged on supps. haha


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## chiquita6683 (May 2, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by young d *_
> I feel natural bodybuilders are BB who use whey, multivits, maybe a bit of creatine... glutamine... etc, products that occur naturally that they would get from food sources if possible but seeing they can afford it and don't have the time to just cook meals all day they supplement certain nutrition needs
> 
> I think someone who uses anabolic stuff and 1-ad, test... etc is un-natural
> ...


 i agree!


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## chiquita6683 (May 2, 2004)

ok sorry my attentions spent on this thread now, i didnt get to read every1s opinions but i voiced mine kinda


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## V Player (May 2, 2004)

Ai chiquita....no tienes que explicar. Como disen en ingles? "you go wit yo' bad self!"


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## Johnnny (May 3, 2004)

I agree with chiquita6683 & young d on this despite what others think.

A good whey protein & 7-8 solid meals a day is the best way to go.

It's easy to have 6 or 7 meals a day without being home all day cooking. I hardly have the time to do that with work, night school, the gym, girlfriend etc......

If you have some sort of counter top grill such as the George Foreman (with different sizes), you can cook chicken, beef, steak or fish in less than 5 mins. I pre-cook all my food to last me 3-4 days at a time that stays completely fresh & full of flavor in a good tupperware. This way I can just pack 3 or 4 meals or whatever I need in less than a minute & go. I always have enough food & water with me where ever I am whether it's at work, or my 2 nights a week of school or even if I'm stuck in traffic or whatever this is the best way to go.


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## chiquita6683 (May 3, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> I agree with chiquita6683 & young d on this despite what others think.
> 
> A good whey protein & 7-8 solid meals a day is the best way to go.
> ...



uh no hablas espanol, habla ingles por favor?
Yay! im bout to take a trip, where i gotta know espanol
haha so im practicing w u i guess
btw i understood what u said, I THINK 

so anyway Johnny baby wazhappenin? can u figure out how to download a picture to IM=ironmag
 u dont hafta take me seriously, im justa flirt! check out my profile/gallery, if ya got time.
ya feel me?

oh no im gettin a headache its 1230 in fl anywayz, i was  gonna try to finish my xtra special post, bout my really really really, really really really really really really really really really reallyreallyREALLY Good Day!!! 

k um i was gonna TRY2askya en espanol but i dont wanna think, i just wanna take my meds n get in my beddybye (my aunt always says beddybye! isnt it cute!) *clears throat*

Mr. Metal V. Player: 
                Would you please have the courtesy of posting this in My Journal?

*yea thats all Professional like n thats "the way"/what i need to practice, and no better place to practice than in My Journal,(that happens to be on the net) rite? RIIGHT!

ok? ok! sleepy time!!!! 

damnit! i wanna put the cute face w the Zs, u no? but i cant find it!gurrrr!
 just thought to put the yawn face, didnt have2 look that 1 up tho....oh now im takin out some faces, *cause this replys all purty* *flutters eyelashes*(man there should be a face 4 that!)
its now bout 100am..........damn it takes me a long azz time!
finally! 8faces! oh hey new guy i was hitting on, u hit "quote" in the corner
101!!! damnit gonna be a huuuge post, its takin me a few days!


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## chiquita6683 (May 3, 2004)

1:04^


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## V Player (May 3, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by chiquita6683 *_
> Mr. Metal V. Player:
> Would you please have the courtesy of posting this in My Journal?(


Sure. Anything for a lady. A quien es muy amable y ala mejor muy linda. Exactly how do I do this?


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## Johnnny (May 4, 2004)

chiquita6683 I personally think Spanish is such a sexy & romantic language not to mention the women from Spain & other Hispanic women in the world are gorgeous. It's been about 7yrs that I took Spanish in College & got an %80 in writing but never cont'd it. I can't remember why, now I remember because the 2nd level course was only available in the summer time for some stupid reason & I was always away for several weeks. I should get my books out & touch up


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## chiquita6683 (May 4, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Metal V Player *_
> Sure. Anything for a lady. A quien es muy amable y ala mejor muy linda. Exactly how do I do this?




Ummmmmmmmmmmm...........................i THINK its~

something bout im very beautiful? or easy?  idk!

*ok make this window big, now, ..............
damnit how do i xplain this 1? im doin it w my email, comprende? 

click quote in the corner, then hilite, copy, then go to my journal, 


http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25280 


and paste it! voila!


ahhhhhhhhhhhhh ok maybe i need2gOver myself! 

Oh and post this 2 plz


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## Johnnny (May 4, 2004)

chiquita6683 I just read that link about what had happened to in those 2 car accidents. I'm really sory to hear that, & about your mother.

I hope your ex-boyfriend was a responsible driver. I see a lot of men & boys driving wrecklessly in town or on the highway. I myself at times have driven fast, but never do it in a wreckless way. Sometimes I see stupid guys zig-zagging in & out of lanes all over the road just to get 2 cars ahead of someone. I don't see the point of that.

Good luck in your goal, I hope you achieve it.


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## V Player (May 4, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by chiquita6683 *_
> Ummmmmmmmmmmm...........................i THINK its~
> 
> something bout im very beautiful? or easy?  idk!


No. Definately not easy. But you have the rest right. And Spanish IS the most romantic language in the world. Anyone who has ever had the pleasure of listening to a love song in Spanish will agree with me. Its not just in the words, its the way the language rolls with the emphasis and accents on different parts of the words that English just does not have. Some are enough to make a man cry. And yes, I have.


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## MeLo (May 10, 2004)

hold on a min... i do not use pro-hormones... but they say you're aren't a natural if you use it?


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## gopro (May 11, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MeLo *_
> hold on a min... i do not use pro-hormones... but they say you're aren't a natural if you use it?



Opinions vary on this.


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## sentricyphen (May 12, 2004)

But then again if you test positive on PH's you can't compete in most natural competitions.(at least the ones I've checked into)
Not sure how long it stays in your system, or if they ever use a polygraph(which would be more effective IMO)


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## gopro (May 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by sentricyphen *_
> But then again if you test positive on PH's you can't compete in most natural competitions.(at least the ones I've checked into)
> Not sure how long it stays in your system, or if they ever use a polygraph(which would be more effective IMO)



Actually, polys are the easiest things in the world to pass.


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## sentricyphen (May 12, 2004)

really? how do you get around that?


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## PreMier (May 12, 2004)

You just need to stay calm, and BELIEVE everything that you are saying.  Just keep telling yourself over and over that you didnt use, untill you pretty much believe it.  Basically brainwash yourself.


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## sentricyphen (May 12, 2004)

I'd still be nervous, and would screw it up


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## PreMier (May 12, 2004)

Yea, some people(see GoPro) are just good at lying  

I would probably mess it up too.


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## nikegurl (May 12, 2004)

I almost messed mine up....AND I wasn't even lying.  

(seriously)


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## PreMier (May 12, 2004)

What were you taking a lie detector for?


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## maniclion (May 12, 2004)

I passed mine and I lied twice.


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## gopro (May 13, 2004)

During one of MY lie detector tests, the tester told me that I was SO calm that HE thought I was lying about something even though the test was clean. He wanted me to take it again!

First off, don't have anything to lie about. Second, either just be really calm throughout, or a total basket case throughout, and you will pass. The test only really looks for zig zags produced by calm to nervous or vice versa.


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## chiquita6683 (May 13, 2004)

sorry if i said anything inappropriate in here!


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## gopro (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by chiquita6683 *_
> sorry if i said anything inappropriate in here!



Like what?


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## Johnnny (May 13, 2004)

What are you all taking lie detector tests for?


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## gopro (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Johnnny *_
> What are you all taking lie detector tests for?



For natural bodybuilding contests...well, me anyway. Others may also have to take them for their job or for an interview or something similar.


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## maniclion (May 13, 2004)

Security clearance.


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## PreMier (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> First off, don't have anything to lie about.



I know.. Hence the big cheesy grin (  )


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## chiquita6683 (May 13, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Like what?



um i just said that in all the threads i subscribed to.....i just had a nervous breakdown  i was very inapropriate in my old journal and some pms, so wasnt sure


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## gopro (May 14, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by chiquita6683 *_
> um i just said that in all the threads i subscribed to.....i just had a nervous breakdown  i was very inapropriate in my old journal and some pms, so wasnt sure



Well, if you said something bad, you are forgiven...by me at least


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## Johnnny (May 14, 2004)

What is chiquita6683 talking about? I've never seen anything bad by her?


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## Dipsh!t (Jun 1, 2004)

i might not read threads in between, is creatine clarify as "other supplements"?


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## eskimo515 (Jun 21, 2004)

Creatine seems so basic, like taking an MV, that it belongs in the first category.  I took the second one to include PH's.


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## universe (Jun 27, 2004)

drugs such as steroids totally change a person's biological make up in a short amount of time and give that person an unholy advantage over natural body builders.
A natural bodybuider would be someone who takes no protein or vitamin supplements.
You people are getting way to deep. Is the universe infinite?


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## slavne (Jul 9, 2004)

I am not the expert for steroids or other drugs. The only thing I am using to support my gym exercising is protein. My brother was a competitive weightlifter for years ago. He was living at village: clean air, good food, never thought of drinking or cigars, no cancer history in the whole family whatsoever, naturally strong build, never tasted hamburger, got his doctor's degree diploma, no stress, had some national awards. The only thing we know that during competitions he used some supplements in "some" quantities.
He is dead for two years now. He just got his diploma and started working as a doctor. The man who never had shred of illness years after his competitions got his lungs completely black from carcinoma. He died in such a great pain. Nobody knows why the decease was so extremely fast in his case.  And we shall never know what realy happend with such a strong man who even got the formal medical doctor education. 
I am not sure but I read somewhere that lungs are one of the targets of bodybuilding "supplements".
Yes, I am putting quotes around "supplements". Because that is how big bugs industry wants you to call them. They will always find naive people who will do everything for the sake of competitions and for getting "advantage" over the next competitor.  Because the perils of drugs seems too far for them. They think they can control the usage. Until the things go wrong one last day even after a lot of time.
I shall probably not post any more of my messages on this thread because for clever people one notice is enough. For others though, thousands of messages are the waist of time.


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## madden player (Jul 9, 2004)

I have been natural for life...I never used steriods (this includes all otc steriods).  I do use supplments which include whey protein, creatine, glutimine, every vitimin and mineral you can think of, herbals like tribulus, st. johns wort and valerian and last but not least the ECA stack.

IMO if you never added hormones illegal or otc to your body to try and boost athletic performance or add a few pounds of muscle you are natural.


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## gopro (Jul 12, 2004)

universe said:
			
		

> drugs such as steroids totally change a person's biological make up in a short amount of time and give that person an unholy advantage over natural body builders.
> A natural bodybuider would be someone who takes no protein or vitamin supplements.
> You people are getting way to deep. Is the universe infinite?



We are just a bunch of very deep thinkers over here...we just can't help it. Now, is the Universe infinite? Hmmm, a better question might be, "is the universe natural?" I heard it was taking prohormones...


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## PreMier (Jul 12, 2004)

Interesting post from Avant- 

I also happen to agree with this.  So many of the claimed "naturals" are not.



> First, the PH/PS-vs-steroid distinction is, in most instances, a ploy used by supplement companies to try and keep the government off their backs. So, don't kid yourself, 4AD and 1-test, along with many others "PHs" and "PSs", are, by definition, steroids, and anabolic-androgenic (AAS) ones at that. These "PHs" and "PSs" just happen to be legal for the time being.
> 
> So, if you want to go at this decision as objectively as possible, forget the word games and legal wrinkles. Be honest with yourself about it, and start with "calling a spade a spade": You are considering taking AAS.
> 
> ...


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## madden player (Jul 13, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> We are just a bunch of very deep thinkers over here...we just can't help it. Now, is the Universe infinite? Hmmm, a better question might be, "is the universe natural?" I heard it was taking prohormones...


....Hmmmmmmmmmm....I'm not a physicist, but the prohormones would explain why the universe continues to expand... 

On a more serious note, a steriod is a steriod.  It is common knowledge to most educated bodybuilders that androstenedione is a STERIOD!!!

If you think you are natural and you take any form of andro you are a in denial.  My advice is to grow a sac!!!

Train smart, eat smart, rest lots and your body will make all the hormones it needs to support all the muscle you ever wanted.


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## gopro (Jul 13, 2004)

madden player said:
			
		

> Train smart, eat smart, rest lots and your body will make all the hormones it needs to support all the muscle you ever wanted.



Not if you want to weigh 250 + with single digit body fat


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## madden player (Jul 13, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> Not if you want to weigh 250 + with single digit body fat


...I would like to be 250 lb with single digit body fat but to me it just isn't that important.  Why risk your health for something so vain??

Top amatateurs and pro bodybuilders can hardly afford the drugs they are killing themselves with.  There is no cash and no glory outside this small bodybuilding sub-culture.  

250 lb with single digit body fat will happen naturally.  What would Steves Reeves or Reg Park look like if they could have benifited from all the advances in training/nutrition/supplemention/gym equipment??


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## gopro (Jul 13, 2004)

madden player said:
			
		

> ...I would like to be 250 lb with single digit body fat but to me it just isn't that important.  Why risk your health for something so vain??
> 
> Top amatateurs and pro bodybuilders can hardly afford the drugs they are killing themselves with.  There is no cash and no glory outside this small bodybuilding sub-culture.
> 
> 250 lb with single digit body fat will happen naturally.  What would Steves Reeves or Reg Park look like if they could have benifited from all the advances in training/nutrition/supplemention/gym equipment??



There is nothing wrong with doing everything it takes to reach the physique you desire as long as you decide that the risks are worth it to you. Forget the money. Unlike other sports, bodybuilders truly compete for the love of it. Is it ok for NFL players, MLB players, Olympic athletes, tennis players, boxers, etc, etc to use performance enhancing drugs b/c they make alot of $?

As far as 250 lbs and single digit bodyfat, that would happen completely naturally to 1 in a million. And even so, would probably be like 250 and 8-9 % bodyfat. But when talking about 250 and 3%, it is never going to happen.


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## madden player (Jul 14, 2004)

I don't think it is ok for professional athletes to use performance enhancing drugs just because they can afford it.  I think it is really sad that professional and olympic athletes feal the need to cheat.  What kind of example do those juiced up pro athletes set for the young athletes that are fallowing in there footsteps??? 

It is another thing for a bodybuilder to use steriods, he/she is not cheating anyone but themselves (unless it is a natural competion!!).


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## gopro (Jul 14, 2004)

madden player said:
			
		

> I don't think it is ok for professional athletes to use performance enhancing drugs just because they can afford it.  I think it is really sad that professional and olympic athletes feal the need to cheat.  What kind of example do those juiced up pro athletes set for the young athletes that are fallowing in there footsteps???
> 
> It is another thing for a bodybuilder to use steriods, he/she is not cheating anyone but themselves (unless it is a natural competion!!).



Well, you obviously have a moral problem with the use of steroids, and that is your right. But using steroids is just like all other technology...bigger, better, faster. Its human nature to do anything it takes to be the best. And that is what the people want to see anyway...freaks in bodybuilding and freaky performances on the field.

They want to see 340 lb lineman that can sprint with the best of em...280 lb bodybuilders with zero bodyfat...500 foot homeruns...140 MPH serves...etc.

Trust me, I wish that performance enahancing drugs didn't exist and we could return to a time when a Steeve Reeves body could rule the sport, but thats not reality anymore, so everyone has to make a choice.

I have never used illegal drugs...steroids or recreational in my life...in fact, I've NEVER even tasted alcohol...but I have dabbled with prohormones several times, however, this came only after 14 years of lifting using nothing but the basics like creatine, aminos, and protein. That said, I would never put anyone down for using steroids if that is what they feel they need to do (unless, like you mentioned, they entered a natural show and were cheating). In a world of breast implants, tummy tucks, liposuction, face lifts, hair transplants, etc, steroids are just par for the course.


----------



## madden player (Jul 14, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> ...steroids is just like all other technology...bigger, better, faster. Its human nature to do anything it takes to be the best. And that is what the people want to see anyway...freaks in bodybuilding and freaky performances on the field.
> 
> They want to see 340 lb lineman that can sprint with the best of em...280 lb bodybuilders with zero bodyfat...500 foot homeruns...140 MPH serves...etc.


Steriods are such an old technology, really nothing has change in decades.  It is safe to say the geneticists are hard at work manipulating genes, altering DNA in the hopes of curing serious muscle wasting disease.  

Because everyone wants to be bigger, stronger, faster (like you said, the people want to see the 340 lb lineman and the ripped 300+ lb bodybuilder) it is only a matter of time before we see the first myostation mutated super athlete.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Science/2004/06/24/512617.html


----------



## gopro (Jul 14, 2004)

madden player said:
			
		

> Steriods are such an old technology, really nothing has change in decades.  It is safe to say the geneticists are hard at work manipulating genes, altering DNA in the hopes of curing serious muscle wasting disease.
> 
> Because everyone wants to be bigger, stronger, faster (like you said, the people want to see the 340 lb lineman and the ripped 300+ lb bodybuilder) it is only a matter of time before we see the first myostation mutated super athlete.
> http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Science/2004/06/24/512617.html



Steroids are old technology, but newer and more intense stacking practices are getting more advanced all the time! Not only that, but the use of GH, insulin, IGF-1, prostaglandins, clenbuterol, T3, DNP, aminoglutethimide, synthol, estrogen blockers, diuretics, plasma expandors, and several other growth factors has taken the sport(s) light years ahead of where it was just 10 years ago.

And there is a company that is awfully close already to perfecting a drug that will effectively block the myostatin gene.


----------



## LAM (Jul 14, 2004)

madden player said:
			
		

> Steriods are such an old technology, really nothing has change in decades.  It is safe to say the geneticists are hard at work manipulating genes, altering DNA in the hopes of curing serious muscle wasting disease.
> 
> Because everyone wants to be bigger, stronger, faster (like you said, the people want to see the 340 lb lineman and the ripped 300+ lb bodybuilder) it is only a matter of time before we see the first myostation mutated super athlete.
> http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Science/2004/06/24/512617.html



Myostatin inhibition is such old news, scientists have been doing research on that protein gene for decades now.  We are probably at least a century away from seeing an human embryo where the protein gene myostatin has been intentionally manipulated ...


----------



## eskimo515 (Jul 14, 2004)

When it comes down to it, we all have to decide what our limits are and how hard we want/need to push ourselves to achieve our goals.  I have not taken any drugs (at least any related to BB), and if I had the stones, maybe I would.  But they're not for me.  I have been watching the Olympic Trials where they've obviously been talking about BALCO every second.  And it sucks that Marion Jones and the others are underperforming, because now everyone will say, she was only good because she was juicing.  Like I said, I've never juiced, but as far I know, steroids don't help you swing a bat or drag your ass to the gym or run down a track.  You still have to want it and work hard for it.  If the drugs just did it for you, what would be the fun in that.


----------



## gr81 (Jul 14, 2004)

> steroids don't help you swing a bat or drag your ass to the gym or run down a track. You still have to want it and work hard for it. If the drugs just did it for you, what would be the fun in that.



exactly eskimo. As a person who has spent countless hours educating himself on all aspects of anabolic use, from legal aspects to the chemical structures of the compounds, I can safely say that this whole process is ridiculous and insulting. does anyone else see how earily similar this is to McCarthyism??


----------



## gopro (Jul 15, 2004)

LAM said:
			
		

> Myostatin inhibition is such old news, scientists have been doing research on that protein gene for decades now.  We are probably at least a century away from seeing an human embryo where the protein gene myostatin has been intentionally manipulated ...



Actually LAM, there is a drug now being tested that will block the effects of Myostatin. Its getting close. Of course, this is not actually manipulation of the gene, but more along the lines of something like aminoglutethimide blocking cortisol.


----------



## gopro (Jul 15, 2004)

eskimo515 said:
			
		

> Like I said, I've never juiced, but as far I know, steroids don't help you swing a bat or drag your ass to the gym or run down a track.  You still have to want it and work hard for it.  If the drugs just did it for you, what would be the fun in that.



Well, they do help you swing a bat harder, and allow players to remain at full strength from day one to day 162. They help you run down a track faster, and they do help some less motivated people get to the gym and stay there b/c results come so easily.

Ironically, a study was done where steroids were given to people that did not work out at all and they still put on 13 lbs of muscle in like 6 weeks.


----------



## P-funk (Jul 15, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> Well, they do help you swing a bat harder, and allow players to remain at full strength from day one to day 162. They help you run down a track faster, and they do help some less motivated people get to the gym and stay there b/c results come so easily.
> 
> Ironically, a study was done where steroids were given to people that did not work out at all and they still put on 13 lbs of muscle in like 6 weeks.




Also, going along with the sqinging a bat comment, studies were done that showed that anabolic steroids help to increase hand eye coordination and reaction time!  That is huge for a major league batter.  But, they don't make someone a great player.  They can help take a great player and make him better but if you suck chances are you will still suck, just not as bad.


----------



## gopro (Jul 15, 2004)

P-funk said:
			
		

> Also, going along with the sqinging a bat comment, studies were done that showed that anabolic steroids help to increase hand eye coordination and reaction time!  That is huge for a major league batter.  But, they don't make someone a great player.  They can help take a great player and make him better but if you suck chances are you will still suck, just not as bad.



Yes, I have seen studies that refer to this. And I agree, while steroids (and other drugs) can make a lousy bodybuilder into a great one, they can not make a lousy ballplayer into a great one.


----------



## madden player (Jul 15, 2004)

gr81 said:
			
		

> As a person who has spent countless hours educating himself on all aspects of anabolic use, from legal aspects to the chemical structures of the compounds, I can safely say that this whole process is ridiculous and insulting. does anyone else see how earily similar this is to McCarthyism??


Steriods enhance all forms of athletic performance (mental and physical). Does anyone think for one second that steriods did not play a part in the transformation of so many baseball sluggers physiques and performances at the plate?? It is true that all the drugs in the world will not make an elite athlete but is sure as hell makes him perform at a much higher level. 

Just what is ridiculous and insulting?? I do not see how this is similar to McCarthysim (The Politics of Fear??). Are you talking about BALCO and the steriod witch hunt??


----------



## madden player (Jul 15, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> Ironically, a study was done where steroids were given to people that did not work out at all and they still put on 13 lbs of muscle in like 6 weeks.


I remember reading about that study (The Testosterone Trials)  back in the day when Muscular Development the magizine was All-Natural Muscular Development.  If I remember correctly it wasn't even a high dosage by some gear head standards.  I think it was 400-600 mg a week of Test. 

I thought it was amazing that they could sit around and do absolutly nothing and pack on an average of 13 lbs of muscle.  The group that took the Testosterone plus strenth trained gained an awesome 20+ lbs of beef.

It was this one study that tempted me more then anything else to try steriods (the temptation was only temporary...I remained natural).


----------



## gopro (Jul 15, 2004)

madden player said:
			
		

> I remember reading about that study (The Testosterone Trials)  back in the day when Muscular Development the magizine was All-Natural Muscular Development.  If I remember correctly it wasn't even a high dosage by some gear head standards.  I think it was 400-600 mg a week of Test.
> 
> I thought it was amazing that they could sit around and do absolutly nothing and pack on an average of 13 lbs of muscle.  The group that took the Testosterone plus strenth trained gained an awesome 20+ lbs of beef.
> 
> It was this one study that tempted me more then anything else to try steriods (the temptation was only temporary...I remained natural).



Yup, thats the one! I really get a good laugh out of SOME guys that use huge amounts of various drugs, but love to claim that they are only "finishing touchers," and maybe account for 5-10 % of their development. Yeah, ok


----------



## eskimo515 (Jul 15, 2004)

I guess you guys are right.  If I had my way, I would take all the money and doctors they are spending on doping and all that, put it towards finding cures for cancer or AIDS.  Then let athletes take whatever they want, and let the best man (or woman) win.


----------



## PreMier (Jul 15, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> Actually LAM, there is a drug now being tested that will block the effects of Myostatin. Its getting close. Of course, this is not actually manipulation of the gene, but more along the lines of something like aminoglutethimide blocking cortisol.




Do you have any more info on this?  I was under the impression that it would be a loooong time, even before they had inhibitors.


----------



## LAM (Jul 15, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> Actually LAM, there is a drug now being tested that will block the effects of Myostatin. Its getting close. Of course, this is not actually manipulation of the gene, but more along the lines of something like aminoglutethimide blocking cortisol.



I have heard the same as well, but like with aminoglutethimide it is only beneficial for those with severely elevated levels of cortisol, say after a heavy AAS cycle.  what have you seen about this myostatin inhibitor in regards to how it supposedly works humans with the normal myostatin gene expression...


----------



## madden player (Jul 15, 2004)

PreMier said:
			
		

> Do you have any more info on this? I was under the impression that it would be a loooong time, even before they had inhibitors.




Given the huge potential market for such drugs, researchers at universities and pharmaceutical companies already are trying to find a way to limit the amount and activity of myostatin in the body. 

At Wyeth, de Vane said the company's first clinical trials of its antibody-based drug targeting the myostatin protein are testing whether it is effective against muscular dystrophy or sarcopenia, the loss of muscle mass and strength due to aging and diseases including cancer. The drug is known only as MYO-029 at this point. The company is not yet projecting when results will be available. 

Dr. Lou Kunkel, director of the genomics program at Boston Children's Hospital and professor of pediatrics and genetics at Harvard Medical School, said success is possible within several years. "Just decreasing this protein by 20, 30, 50 percent can have a profound effect on muscle bulk," said Kunkel, who is among the doctors participating in the Wyeth research.


----------



## gopro (Jul 16, 2004)

LAM said:
			
		

> I have heard the same as well, but like with aminoglutethimide it is only beneficial for those with severely elevated levels of cortisol, say after a heavy AAS cycle.  what have you seen about this myostatin inhibitor in regards to how it supposedly works humans with the normal myostatin gene expression...



I may be able to dig up a little more info about this as I have a few "friends" in hig places, LOL. I will let you know if I do.

As far as aminoglutethimide, thats not only good for after an AAS cycle, but also for the last few weeks before a contest, as it helps harden the physique into granite. Of course, this can also kill you if you over do it...just ask Andreas Munzer...or don't ask b/c he has passed on (RIP).


----------



## goal_500_bench (Jul 25, 2004)

the only thing I have used is a protein supplement or whey I don't remember what but it was one of those and I have made considerable progress considering I took a year off from lifting when I went to school and I now currently bench 355lbs...


----------



## goal_500_bench (Jul 25, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> Well, you obviously have a moral problem with the use of steroids, and that is your right. But using steroids is just like all other technology...bigger, better, faster. Its human nature to do anything it takes to be the best. And that is what the people want to see anyway...freaks in bodybuilding and freaky performances on the field.
> 
> They want to see 340 lb lineman that can sprint with the best of em...280 lb bodybuilders with zero bodyfat...500 foot homeruns...140 MPH serves...etc.
> 
> ...


Jesus Christ man  results like that are what I'm talking about.


----------



## GYM GURU (Sep 6, 2004)

*Natural Competitor*

Natural. The best way to keep hard earned muscle when taking time of. I know many guys who juice & most of them will loose a lot of their mass if the take 3 to 4 weeks of. 
I',myself, took 6 weeks of a couple years ago becasue of an achilles injury & when I got back into the gym it only took me a month to get back full speed . I had not lost a bit. I actually won the show that I entered which was 5 months later. Natural ALL THE WAY !!  You guys know the deal ! Hola !


----------



## gopro (Sep 7, 2004)

goal_500_bench said:
			
		

> Jesus Christ man  results like that are what I'm talking about.



Whose results? Mine?


----------



## Johnnny (Sep 7, 2004)

goal 500 bench



> Jesus Christ man  results like that are what I'm talking about.



Gopro, I think he means the general results you speak of in the paragraph he quoted you on.


----------



## gopro (Sep 7, 2004)

Johnnny said:
			
		

> goal 500 bench
> 
> 
> 
> Gopro, I think he means the general results you speak of in the paragraph he quoted you on.



Hmmm...you think? Maybe you're right.


----------



## darrenwall (Sep 10, 2004)

Okay, I have to put in my 2 cents worth.  Just to clarify, I have never juiced (yet) which might explain why I'm not 250 lbs. 3% body-fat   

1.  The government, not the medical or bodybuilding community, draws the line as to what is safe to use (legal) and what is unsafe to use (illegal).  As with all things political, there are many more factors involved than just public safety.  We won't even talk about substances that are way more dangerous than steroids (cigarettes, alcohol, etc.) but are legal because they have large lobby groups.

2.  That being said, what is really appropriate for you should be a personal choice.  You can ruin your kidneys by taking in too much protein for decades, should we outlaw chicken?  We are all going to die, steroids MIGHT shorten your lifespan or reduce your quality of life, but so might crossing the road today.

3.  Most "natural" competitors aren't really natural (my apologies to anyone trying this route, good luck, cause your going to need it).  They might be drug free at the time of the contest, or even for the required "free period" (we will have to take their word for it won't we), but most have juiced at some point.  It would be hard to compete if you hadn't.  Don't' get mad at these people, they are playing within the rules.  If you want to get mad, get mad at the "natural" contest promoters for setting up the rules, or for not having strict enough testing, or the first guy that invented steroids.

4.  Point is, if someone invents a better way to build muscle, some guys going to use it, no matter what the risk.  If you want to compete, you probably will have to use it too.  If you don't, thats your free choice, just don't complain that you didn't have a chance.

Okay, I'll get down off my soapbox now.


----------



## Hulkk500 (Sep 17, 2004)

proud natural lifter 100%


----------



## sabre81 (Nov 10, 2004)

nothing but whey protein for me since the beginning.  o yeah and food.


----------



## pumpthatiron (Nov 10, 2004)

hey gopro, which creatine and protein do u use? and what is ur creatine cycle?


----------



## Vince2005 (Nov 12, 2004)

I have never taken supplements I believe in natural bodybuilding I think it's the best way


----------



## chiquita6683 (Nov 14, 2004)

young d said:
			
		

> I feel natural bodybuilders are BB who use whey, multivits, maybe a bit of creatine... glutamine... etc, products that occur naturally that they would get from food sources if possible but seeing they can afford it and don't have the time to just cook meals all day they supplement certain nutrition needs
> 
> I think someone who uses anabolic stuff and 1-ad, test... etc is un-natural
> 
> ...



  TRUE!!!


----------



## Flex (Nov 19, 2004)

To quote Mikhal....

"I ain't natural. I'm SUPER natural"


----------



## gopro (Nov 19, 2004)

pumpthatiron said:
			
		

> hey gopro, which creatine and protein do u use? and what is ur creatine cycle?



I use CEX for creatine and Micellean for my protein blend and Syntrax Nectar for my whey.

I use creatine 12 weeks on and 4 weeks off.


----------



## chiquita6683 (Nov 19, 2004)

wait whats efa's, cla, and maltodextrin? i know what creatine is but..... i didnt catch that till just now


----------



## LAM (Nov 19, 2004)

chiquita6683 said:
			
		

> wait whats efa's, cla, and maltodextrin? i know what creatine is but..... i didnt catch that till just now



EFA's are essential fatty acids - Omega 3, 6 and 9 fats.  Omega 3 are the most important, most people take fish oil caps to get these or you can use flax seed oil to get both Omega 3 and 6 fatty acids.

CLA (Conjugated Linoleic Acid) - used by bodybuilders to help keep fat gains to a mimimum when bulking (caloric excess).  CLA interferes with lipo-protein lipase (LPL) an enzyme that plays a major role in fat storage.

Maltodextrin is a glucose polymer.  a sugar used mainly in the PWO shake to boost insulin levels and replenish muscle glycogen stores. can be used with dextrose or in place of...


----------



## GYM GURU (Nov 30, 2004)

Natural ALL THE WAY.


----------



## GYM GURU (Nov 30, 2004)

I deadlift every week. I do tons of lat pulldowns , bent over rows, one arm dumbell rows, & pullups. Any other exercises good for lats. I have a weak lat spread & a good back double biceps pose. I've been working hard to get a good lat pose. Any help would be truly appreciated. ! Secrets exercises are welcome. Ha ha


----------



## gopro (Dec 1, 2004)

GYM GURU said:
			
		

> I deadlift every week. I do tons of lat pulldowns , bent over rows, one arm dumbell rows, & pullups. Any other exercises good for lats. I have a weak lat spread & a good back double biceps pose. I've been working hard to get a good lat pose. Any help would be truly appreciated. ! Secrets exercises are welcome. Ha ha



You are so funny. If people saw a pic of you they would realize you have one of the best backs (and physiques) on this entire board! You shouldn't be asking for advice, you should be giving it


----------



## CowPimp (Dec 2, 2004)

LAM said:
			
		

> CLA (Conjugated Linoleic Acid) - used by bodybuilders to help keep fat gains to a mimimum when bulking (caloric excess).  CLA interferes with lipo-protein lipase (LPL) an enzyme that plays a major role in fat storage.



Interesting.  What foods have this in high concentrations?


----------



## LAM (Dec 2, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Interesting.  What foods have this in high concentrations?



none these days.  CLA used to be plentifull in beef and dairy but due to changes in the diets of dairy cows and cattle the quantities of CLA have been substantialy lowered.


----------



## MeLo (Dec 2, 2004)

yep it's best to buy CLA as a supplement


----------



## CowPimp (Dec 2, 2004)

LAM said:
			
		

> none these days.  CLA used to be plentifull in beef and dairy but due to changes in the diets of dairy cows and cattle the quantities of CLA have been substantialy lowered.



That's too bad...


----------



## soxmuscle (Dec 5, 2004)

gopro said:
			
		

> You are so funny. If people saw a pic of you they would realize you have one of the best backs (and physiques) on this entire board! You shouldn't be asking for advice, you should be giving it


Well, lets see these pictures.


----------



## aztecwolf (Dec 6, 2004)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> That's too bad...


yeah it is too bad that they are all coming out with these fraken foods, my friend was telling me about how they are breeding turkeys to have more whit meat in them, the result is that that can't stand up because they are too heavy with white meat and not enough dark meat

http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/5104410.html


----------



## WATTS (Dec 10, 2004)

i am a natural bodybuilder, only the use of protein powders for me.


----------



## Warren[BigW] (Dec 16, 2004)

I personally have no interest in being in bb comps. I train natural, I've came close to steroids several times,I have easy access. The gym, my JUJITSU Club. Never gave in.



(Steroid free) I guess that's what natural means. People can say there is no such thing as natural, but Steroids take you to a whole new level beyond any OTC...Im talkin 500 times more anabolic than any OTC -
Like Nandrolone Decanoate.


----------



## Mags (Feb 13, 2005)

Eating food as the only support in weight training = Natural

Eating food with whey, creatine, pro-hormone supplementation = half natural

Banging gear = Unnatural

I'm not critical of any, each to his own.


----------



## Du (Feb 13, 2005)

Eating like we do is not natural.


----------



## clemson357 (Feb 14, 2005)

I once used Andro for about 3 weeks.  After that I took a long break, was in the worst shape ever, then trained back to where I am now.


----------



## Maynard Keenan (Mar 9, 2005)

In 12 years i used cyp twice for two months each time.  Save it for serious plateaus.


----------



## GYM GURU (Mar 10, 2005)

*Here are the pics you requested SOXMUSCLE*

I AM A NATURAL BODYBUILDER wHO COMPETES IN 2 NATRURALS SHOWS A YEAR.   NPC Nationals was in the Dallasare last year & I decided to get into it. I made it to the night show on my first try. There were 36 guys in my lightweight class. I am 100% natural . I only take protein, glutamine, creatine, cla, TRIBULUS TERRATRIS, amino acid pills, green tea pills, garlic pills & more protein.
I work out 4 days a week, HARD !
I still need some back help. For being natural I feel my back is ok but any advice would be cool. I am always down to learn & get better. I weighed in at 154lbs at the npc nationals this past november.


----------



## gopro (Mar 10, 2005)

GYM GURU said:
			
		

> I AM A NATURAL BODYBUILDER wHO COMPETES IN 2 NATRURALS SHOWS A YEAR.   NPC Nationals was in the Dallasare last year & I decided to get into it. I made it to the night show on my first try. There were 36 guys in my lightweight class. I am 100% natural . I only take protein, glutamine, creatine, cla, TRIBULUS TERRATRIS, amino acid pills, green tea pills, garlic pills & more protein.
> I work out 4 days a week, HARD !
> I still need some back help. For being natural I feel my back is ok but any advice would be cool. I am always down to learn & get better. I weighed in at 154lbs at the npc nationals this past november.



You are an extraordinary natural bodybuilder...I have told you that before. Your conditioning is impeccable, and your back is far better than you give yourself credit for.


----------



## P-funk (Mar 11, 2005)

GYM GURU said:
			
		

> I AM A NATURAL BODYBUILDER wHO COMPETES IN 2 NATRURALS SHOWS A YEAR.   NPC Nationals was in the Dallasare last year & I decided to get into it. I made it to the night show on my first try. There were 36 guys in my lightweight class. I am 100% natural . I only take protein, glutamine, creatine, cla, TRIBULUS TERRATRIS, amino acid pills, green tea pills, garlic pills & more protein.
> I work out 4 days a week, HARD !
> I still need some back help. For being natural I feel my back is ok but any advice would be cool. I am always down to learn & get better. I weighed in at 154lbs at the npc nationals this past november.




what is it that you don't like about you back?  It looks fine to me.


----------



## ihateschoolmt (Mar 12, 2005)

GYM GURU said:
			
		

> I weighed in at 154lbs at the npc nationals this past november.


How tall are you?


----------



## vegman (Mar 23, 2005)

Back looks great


----------



## Yunier (Mar 24, 2005)

GYM GURU said:
			
		

> I AM A NATURAL BODYBUILDER wHO COMPETES IN 2 NATRURALS SHOWS A YEAR. NPC Nationals was in the Dallasare last year & I decided to get into it. I made it to the night show on my first try. There were 36 guys in my lightweight class. I am 100% natural . I only take protein, glutamine, creatine, cla, TRIBULUS TERRATRIS, amino acid pills, green tea pills, garlic pills & more protein.
> I work out 4 days a week, HARD !
> I still need some back help. For being natural I feel my back is ok but any advice would be cool. I am always down to learn & get better. I weighed in at 154lbs at the npc nationals this past november.


 *Very Inspirational!*


----------



## Maynard Keenan (Mar 31, 2005)

Ive done cypionate once about 5 years ago.. i took 2 bottle 10cc 200 mg each and thought I looked to bloated and when I got off was very depressed for a couple months.


----------



## robfod (Apr 2, 2005)

Also,  there are two types of "Natural"
 Those bodybuilders that have been "clean" 
 Those bodybuilders that are "100% virgin"

 Clean being.. they have done steroids or other IOC banned substances in the past and have been clean for 5 years.
 100% Virgin .. have never touched steroids or any IOC banned substance EVER in their lives.

 I would say 90% people that call themselves "natural"  are actualy just "clean"
 Especially people on this forum.


----------



## HadyOak (Apr 2, 2005)

Only Plants Grow Natural..


----------



## gopro (Apr 2, 2005)

robfod said:
			
		

> I would say 90% people that call themselves "natural"  are actualy just "clean"
> Especially people on this forum.



Thats a rather bold statement!


----------



## HadyOak (Apr 3, 2005)

What you mean by clean!!?


----------



## devildog88 (Apr 4, 2005)

I am "virgin" I guess.  Never really used associated that term with myself before!


----------



## gopro (Apr 4, 2005)

HadyOak said:
			
		

> What you mean by clean!!?



Have used drugs before, but have been off them for a period of time. This means different things to different people in that some people consider themselves clean if off drugs for a couple of months, but others feel that to call themselves clean they need to be off for a year or more.


----------



## HadyOak (Apr 4, 2005)

thanks I am clear now


----------



## gopro (Apr 4, 2005)

HadyOak said:
			
		

> thanks I am clear now



Cool!


----------



## kraziplaya (Apr 16, 2005)

ive been working out for 7 years now and have tried numerous supplements..creatine,no2,prohormones,etc.....soon i will be turning over to the dark side


----------



## HadyOak (Apr 16, 2005)

just get wise!!


----------



## Udenia (Apr 29, 2005)

*Suppements*

Hello, I use several supplements to include protein powders, Amino Acids, Fat Burners for cardio and I also like Meal replacement shakes,  I have made so much progress in the last 6 months, I do not look like the same person.  My pictures are posted on the bodyforlifetracker website under the profiles and search for Udenia.  You will see how hard I have worked without using steroids, It can be done...


----------



## smallfry (May 3, 2005)

*your decision*

You know wanting to become big or strong ,tough or maybe just wanting to stay in a healthly condition that's cool..

I know that a lot of weight lifters use supplements and over all it's a waste ,supplements is another drug just like the rest they all have side effects the ads will lie to you by not implying the side effects trying to fool you in order to take your money . 

Now there seems to be some pretty damn good products out there . They have an additional benefits more protein ,carbs , vitamin B6 , gulcose . But really if you want to earn what you've done and want to brag about it fine just don't use any supplements while doing what you got to do in order to brag or for what ever your purpose is . anyone can jump on supplements and get big the word supplement has a meaning that should have an affect towards people . Hey i'm big or strong because i bought it . If you think about it .. It's sort like selling your diginity or your pride when you have to find a easier way out .

It brings to my mind anyone can have excuses like assholes we all have em .
But not anyone can face their problems head on you have to be a man to do that . Not everyone here can do this .
I don't have a problem with people using supplements but when you get old and your kidneys fail or your having heart failure what can i say hey man sorry but that is you .

Natural bodybuilding is having pride and confidents in one's self not looking for an alternative because you don't need an alternative


----------



## devildog88 (May 3, 2005)

Hey Smallfry, Supplements or not you still have to work you ass off to make gains.


----------



## gopro (May 3, 2005)

smallfry said:
			
		

> You know wanting to become big or strong ,tough or maybe just wanting to stay in a healthly condition that's cool..
> 
> I know that a lot of weight lifters use supplements and over all it's a waste ,supplements is another drug just like the rest they all have side effects the ads will lie to you by not implying the side effects trying to fool you in order to take your money .
> 
> ...


----------



## musclepump (May 3, 2005)

ha...


----------



## Derm413 (May 8, 2005)

Whats up GOPRO.
          This is GYM GURU, I am using my brothers user ID seeing that I am not at home.  I got my natural pro INFB card three weeks ago at the WISCONSIN GREAT LAKES NATURAL CHAMPIONS. I did my first PRO SHOW, PRO AMERICAN CHAMPIONSHIPS in AUSTIN,TX, & GOT THRID. THanks GOPRO for all the help in the past. I always keep the info you provide me & use it based on my physique. Thanks again for all the help !!   IRONMAGAZINE is "OFF THE FUDGIN CHAINNNNNNN"      Hola !!!


----------



## gopro (May 8, 2005)

Derm413 said:
			
		

> Whats up GOPRO.
> This is GYM GURU, I am using my brothers user ID seeing that I am not at home.  I got my natural pro INFB card three weeks ago at the WISCONSIN GREAT LAKES NATURAL CHAMPIONS. I did my first PRO SHOW, PRO AMERICAN CHAMPIONSHIPS in AUSTIN,TX, & GOT THRID. THanks GOPRO for all the help in the past. I always keep the info you provide me & use it based on my physique. Thanks again for all the help !!   IRONMAGAZINE is "OFF THE FUDGIN CHAINNNNNNN"      Hola !!!



Major congrats to you my friend. I am so glad I was able to contribute to your success and wish the very best in your future competitions in the pros!!


----------



## IRONMAN55 (May 13, 2005)

*Busting505*

I am a natural bodybuilder. No steroids here. I compete at 245 ibs and i packed it on naturally.


----------



## gopro (May 13, 2005)

IRONMAN55 said:
			
		

> I am a natural bodybuilder. No steroids here. I compete at 245 ibs and i packed it on naturally.



Well, unless you are mega tall, that would make you about the biggest natural competitor on earth. Even Ronnie Coleman only competed in the 220s before starting drug use.


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## MikeSimms (May 16, 2005)

Well I believe in training natural and with the results I have been getting from the Freaky Big Natural Routine I don' need drugs.  I might not beat Ronnie Coleman but I have put on 17 pounds of muscle in twelve weeks of training after puttin on nothing for a year and a half.  Wade McNutt the Natural Bodybuilding Champion is the real deal and his really honest about training and extremely accessible on the boards.  Check out his program at [font=Verdana,Arial]http://freakybignatural.com/[/font] This program is the bomb.  I was skeptical at first with the ad claims but when I got the program with the cd's and the book and the private owner boards I was blown away!!! I think for natural guys even steroid guys they could learn a lot from Wade's Course.  That's my two cents!  I use supplements but not any of the hormone precursors or stimulants.


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## gopro (May 16, 2005)

MikeSimms said:
			
		

> Well I believe in training natural and with the results I have been getting from the Freaky Big Natural Routine I don' need drugs.  I might not beat Ronnie Coleman but I have put on 17 pounds of muscle in twelve weeks of training after puttin on nothing for a year and a half.  Wade McNutt the Natural Bodybuilding Champion is the real deal and his really honest about training and extremely accessible on the boards.  Check out his program at [font=Verdana,Arial]http://freakybignatural.com/[/font] This program is the bomb.  I was skeptical at first with the ad claims but when I got the program with the cd's and the book and the private owner boards I was blown away!!! I think for natural guys even steroid guys they could learn a lot from Wade's Course.  That's my two cents!  I use supplements but not any of the hormone precursors or stimulants.



You sound like an ad. But I'm glad his program works for you.


----------



## Burner02 (May 16, 2005)

holy schnikes, GP! Have not seen u in a while! I am about to go to the gym and start my new split that I had you tweak a long time ago....
have a great night!


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## musclepump (May 16, 2005)

Sounds like


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## gopro (May 16, 2005)

Burner02 said:
			
		

> holy schnikes, GP! Have not seen u in a while! I am about to go to the gym and start my new split that I had you tweak a long time ago....
> have a great night!



Hey bro! Good to see you. I have been around, just not as much. Hope you are well and that the split works for you!


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## Burner02 (May 16, 2005)

same here...dang cyber nazis killed the port..and our secret 'path' to the other proxy server..so no can post from work anymore..and mainly only go to journals now...


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## gopro (May 17, 2005)

Burner02 said:
			
		

> same here...dang cyber nazis killed the port..and our secret 'path' to the other proxy server..so no can post from work anymore..and mainly only go to journals now...



Well, good to see you!


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## Nick+ (May 30, 2005)

Never taken steroids or other 'chemicals', and probably never will   {not through principle, but because I can't afford them....}   I know the dangers of getting involved in substances, in my case : alcohol.

I've taken creatine for 4 months until recently, but it causes me too much dehydration. And again, I don't want to be hooked to expensive white powder for the rest of my life. I'll make more gains by buying 4 x  10 kilo plates for my home gym--- with the money I've saved on creatine!

Wish I could say the same about my alcohol consumption. But the more results one sees from training so the less interesting becomes the boozing.........(that's my experience anyway)


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## gr81 (May 31, 2005)

> know the dangers of getting involved in substances, in my case : alcohol.



well I can certainly understand not wanting to use AAS for many reasons, but to compare it to ANY recreational drug, and especially alcohol, in any way is absolutely not a fair comparison in the least


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## Nick+ (Jun 1, 2005)

Hmmm,   maybe your'e right-   but I'm not really comparing it ( or wasn't meaning to). I just  suspect that if I started taking steroids, and saw some really good results, I'd probably start  taking  all the other stuff  (I can't remember the names, but like the stuff that makes your internal organs grow , and bloats the stomach)   That is the danger steroids would probably pose   _to me_*  .

Mind you, had I spent the same amount of money , on steroids and not alcohol in the last ten years , I'd maybe have been  a lot  happier now.

This is all sheer speculation of course.  I will say though that lifting weights, has kept me from the worst excesses of the alcohol throughout the years.    

Anyway- I agree , one cannot compare steroids to alcohol. *


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## Oz lifter (Jun 3, 2005)

hi guys

Can anyone provide a link for me showing the best natural body builder in the world today, I would like to see how big someone can get without steroids.  The only body buliders ive ever seen are the guys in the mags like coleman, cutler, dexter etc and they are all huge from steroids right ? Id like to see what the best natural body builder looks like comapred to these guys.

cheers


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## gopro (Jun 3, 2005)

Oz lifter said:
			
		

> hi guys
> 
> Can anyone provide a link for me showing the best natural body builder in the world today, I would like to see how big someone can get without steroids.  The only body buliders ive ever seen are the guys in the mags like coleman, cutler, dexter etc and they are all huge from steroids right ? Id like to see what the best natural body builder looks like comapred to these guys.
> 
> cheers



Try www.skiplacour.com

Some believe he is natural and some do not.


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## Oz lifter (Jun 4, 2005)

hi

Thanks for the link GP that guy is sure a weapon.  BTW im 6 weeks into yuor p/rr/s training and I have put on roughly 4kg of muscle which is unreal thanks again for the unreal program.

cheers


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## gopro (Jun 5, 2005)

Oz lifter said:
			
		

> hi
> 
> Thanks for the link GP that guy is sure a weapon.  BTW im 6 weeks into yuor p/rr/s training and I have put on roughly 4kg of muscle which is unreal thanks again for the unreal program.
> 
> cheers



You are welcome for the link and very, very welcome for the program. I am so happy to hear it is working so well for you! Thanks to you for letting me know your progress!


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## lollie (Jun 18, 2005)

*I am.*

  I'm too scared to try anything but hard work. I keep thinking of the long term. Good food and hard training is great medicine; don't you think?


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## The Monkey Man (Jun 18, 2005)

lollie said:
			
		

> Good food and hard training is great medicine; don't you think?


I don't know...
...But it looks good on you!


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## FishOrCutBait (Jun 21, 2005)

lollie said:
			
		

> Good food and hard training is great medicine; don't you think?


LOL!! The owner of my gym posted that, its a quote from Hippocrates!!


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## BiggerNstronger (Jun 21, 2005)

lollie said:
			
		

> I'm too scared to try anything but hard work. I keep thinking of the long term. Good food and hard training is great medicine; don't you think?



You have SOMETHING figured out thats for sure...

Whenever I hear of a guy having "bitch-tits" or a back full of zits or shrunken testes Im especially glad that Im still natural.   I cant say that there is no temptation though but I dont have all the worries that alot of guys have.    Im reaching all my goals but it just takes a little longer to get there.   Rome wasnt built in a day...right?


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## chris2489 (Jun 21, 2005)

I 'm natural if that means not taking steroids.


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## GYM GURU (Jun 26, 2005)

what is this training, how much does it cost, & where can I get it.


			
				Oz lifter said:
			
		

> hi
> 
> Thanks for the link GP that guy is sure a weapon.  BTW im 6 weeks into yuor p/rr/s training and I have put on roughly 4kg of muscle which is unreal thanks again for the unreal program.
> 
> cheers


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## Cowbell (Jul 1, 2005)

I am all natural....unless you count pizza and hot pockets...and cheese burgers....and...I am ashamed....  Really, I use to use whey and creatine but I have been all natural for about a year but sadly I will start back up soon because I can't seem to gain anymore weight eating like a cow. PB&J RULES (PB and banana is nice too)


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## GFR (Jul 1, 2005)

Cowbell said:
			
		

> I am all natural....unless you count pizza and hot pockets...and cheese burgers....and...I am ashamed....  Really, I use to use whey and creatine but I have been all natural for about a year but sadly I will start back up soon because I can't seem to gain anymore weight eating like a cow. PB&J RULES (PB and banana is nice too)


I think your comment needs a little more cow bell.


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## gopro (Jul 5, 2005)

Cowbell said:
			
		

> I am all natural....unless you count pizza and hot pockets...and cheese burgers....and...I am ashamed....  Really, I use to use whey and creatine but I have been all natural for about a year but sadly I will start back up soon because I can't seem to gain anymore weight eating like a cow. PB&J RULES (PB and banana is nice too)



I would say that 99 out of 100 people would consider you natural while using creatine and whey, so glady you can use them and still feel good about yourself!


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## LexusGS (Jul 11, 2005)

is that what u take gotro?


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## gopro (Jul 12, 2005)

LexusGS said:
			
		

> is that what u take gotro?



Yes, I DO take whey and creatine among other supplements.


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## Sam40 (Aug 31, 2005)

We all take steroids?, you eat beef, and eggs don't you. Well every pound of beef in this country is steroid fed, to make them grow faster. Chickens are fed steroids to enhance egg laying. Steroids are used in all agricultural applications. So you don't think this trickles down?. 
Well when I was a kid a 6' sixteen year old was a freak. Now you have 6' 14 year olds by the dozen, wonder why. It sure ain't McDonald's, or then just maybe it is. We live in a fucked up country, where people will feed you anything to kill you, just to make a buck.


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## KEFE (Sep 17, 2005)

im natural


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## myCATpowerlifts (Sep 29, 2005)

Sam40 said:
			
		

> We all take steroids?, you eat beef, and eggs don't you. Well every pound of beef in this country is steroid fed, to make them grow faster. Chickens are fed steroids to enhance egg laying. Steroids are used in all agricultural applications. So you don't think this trickles down?.
> Well when I was a kid a 6' sixteen year old was a freak. Now you have 6' 14 year olds by the dozen, wonder why. It sure ain't McDonald's, or then just maybe it is. We live in a fucked up country, where people will feed you anything to kill you, just to make a buck.



In the depression, people weren't as tall??


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## rlagana (Oct 7, 2005)

*2005 Canadian Natural National Bodybuilding Competition*

Robert Lagana is runner up at the 2005 Canadian Natural National Bodybuilding Competition. Robert placed 2nd in the 5'9 to 5'11 height category. 

After a 6 year plus layoff from the sport, Robert shocked the crowd with his corvette physique esthetics. The event is organized by Neutron Sports sanctioned by International Fitness Sanctioning Body (IFSB) founded in 1991. The IFSB and Neutron have the most strict drug testing policy in the sport which comparable to Olympic level at IOC standards.

This means NO ephedrine, NO DHEA or Pro-Hormones (Andro etc.. etc..) 
http://www.cces.ca/pdfs/CCES-ADV-2006ListUpdate-E.pdf
The 2006 WADA Prohibited List

Photos can be seen here:

http://www.drugfreebodybuilding.org/content/view/42/36/

Click on Competition Photos to the left.

Let me know what you think ?  Be honest


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## GFR (Oct 7, 2005)

rlagana said:
			
		

> Robert Lagana is runner up at the 2005 Canadian Natural National Bodybuilding Competition. Robert placed 2nd in the 5'9 to 5'11 height category.
> 
> After a 6 year plus layoff from the sport, Robert shocked the crowd with his corvette physique esthetics. The event is organized by Neutron Sports sanctioned by International Fitness Sanctioning Body (IFSB) founded in 1991. The IFSB and Neutron have the most strict drug testing policy in the sport which comparable to Olympic level at IOC standards.
> 
> ...


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## smallfry (Oct 12, 2005)

I bet spam40 a soda and a bag of chips that teenager now are getting taller and bigger than they did in the depression cuz in the depression you ate what was i on the table now you got a microwave that can heat up healthy from BB groceries that has so much protein and other neccessary vitamins and minerals you need for a meal .

I have a question why do people consider vitamins and "whey" protein supplements different ? if you think about they both arent naturally put into your body ... and why do people say that whey "protein" isnt natural the protein is natural isnt it


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## Squaggleboggin (Oct 12, 2005)

Many people (myself included) don't like the idea of taking supplements at all. The thing is, vitamins are absolutely necessary, and many vegetarians have hardly any protein in their diets, so it's just a bit different I suppose.

 I know that I will try my hardest to stay away from all supplements. After all, they are supposed to simply *supplement* occasionally in your diet, not replace eating good foods. That's just my opinion though.


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## GFR (Oct 13, 2005)

No such thing these days!!


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## DOMS (Oct 13, 2005)

It's all relative.  Being "natural" means that you don't have GH gut.

 Or so I've heard...


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## CowPimp (Oct 13, 2005)

smallfry said:
			
		

> I have a question why do people consider vitamins and "whey" protein supplements different ? if you think about they both arent naturally put into your body ... and why do people say that whey "protein" isnt natural the protein is natural isnt it



They don't directly play with your hormone levels like the supplements that I consider unnatural.


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## LAM (Oct 14, 2005)

smallfry said:
			
		

> and why do people say that whey "protein" isnt natural the protein is natural isnt it



because people talk out of their asses about things they don't know about


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## DOMS (Oct 14, 2005)

LAM said:
			
		

> because people talk out of their asses about things they don't know about


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## abu hassaan (Oct 14, 2005)

thank you for your wellcom


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## DOMS (Oct 14, 2005)

abu hassaan said:
			
		

> thank you for your wellcom


 Welcome to IM, hassaan.  Where are you from?


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## str8flexed (Oct 21, 2005)

me

no prohormones, steroids, etc.


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## vader (Oct 21, 2005)

*new to posting*

Im 35 yrs old and small compared to most of you guys, only 156lbs but I have a thyroid disorder that makes it hard to gain mass. Ive been lifting pretty hard for about 5yrs and started at 133lbs. I dont think that is to bad. Protien powders do not work for me, egg whites , steak , and chicken , no or very little bread. I am currently taking PUMP TECH and I love it . The only thing better is andro which Ive only taken once right before it went off the market . Does this mean Im not natural?  I dont know all of my measurements  , but this is what I do know. Im 5ft 5inches tall my waist is 29 inches , thighs are 23&3qtrs , arms calves & neck all measure 17inches .     Is this good ? Please reply.


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## Minotaur (Oct 21, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> I feel natural bodybuilders are BB who use whey, multivits, maybe a bit of creatine... glutamine... etc, products that occur naturally that they would get from food sources ...



That's pretty much my description of myself.


----------



## vader (Oct 21, 2005)

*new to posting*

Im 35 yrs old and small compared to most of you guys, only 156lbs but I have a thyroid disorder that makes it hard to gain mass. Ive been lifting pretty hard for about 5yrs and started at 133lbs. I dont think that is to bad. Protien powders do not work for me, egg whites , steak , and chicken , no or very little bread. I am currently taking PUMP TECH and I love it . The only thing better is andro which Ive only taken once right before it went off the market . Does this mean Im not natural?  I dont know all of my measurements  , but this is what I do know. Im 5ft 5inches tall my waist is 29 inches , thighs are 23&3qtrs , arms calves & neck all measure 17inches .     Is this good ? Please reply . Im about to leave for the gym Ill try to get the rest of my measurements and a picture to post. Maybe some of you real bodybuilders can help and incourage me.


----------



## Squaggleboggin (Oct 21, 2005)

vader said:
			
		

> Im 35 yrs old and small compared to most of you guys, only 156lbs but I have a thyroid disorder that makes it hard to gain mass. Ive been lifting pretty hard for about 5yrs and started at 133lbs. I dont think that is to bad. Protien powders do not work for me, egg whites , steak , and chicken , no or very little bread. I am currently taking PUMP TECH and I love it . The only thing better is andro which Ive only taken once right before it went off the market . Does this mean Im not natural? I dont know all of my measurements , but this is what I do know. Im 5ft 5inches tall my waist is 29 inches , thighs are 23&3qtrs , arms calves & neck all measure 17inches . Is this good ? Please reply . Im about to leave for the gym Ill try to get the rest of my measurements and a picture to post. Maybe some of you real bodybuilders can help and incourage me.


As to whether you're natural, that's a matter of opinion. Personally, natural means that you eat food for your nutrients and don't take any kind of steroids or anything else that gives you an unfair advantage. Now, I take a multivitamin and I also have flax oil capsules that I take, but I still consider myself natural - if I were to go off of these, I would not lose anything I've gained.

17" arms for a guy that's 5'5"? That's pretty darn big to me, especially considering that I'm 5'11" with 15" arms (I don't train for size but still).

Oh, I was going to take even more measurements just as a reference of my progress (and yes I realize that with strength training I won't become huge, but that's not what I'm trying to document), and I was wondering where exactly you're supposed to measure the thighs at. Is it just at the largest part or what? Stupid question probably, but it's been bugging me.


----------



## GFR (Oct 28, 2005)

vader said:
			
		

> Im 35 yrs old and small compared to most of you guys, only 156lbs but I have a thyroid disorder that makes it hard to gain mass. Ive been lifting pretty hard for about 5yrs and started at 133lbs. I dont think that is to bad. Protien powders do not work for me, egg whites , steak , and chicken , no or very little bread. I am currently taking PUMP TECH and I love it . The only thing better is andro which Ive only taken once right before it went off the market . Does this mean Im not natural?  I dont know all of my measurements  , but this is what I do know. Im 5ft 5inches tall my waist is 29 inches , thighs are 23&3qtrs , arms calves & neck all measure 17inches .     Is this good ? Please reply . Im about to leave for the gym Ill try to get the rest of my measurements and a picture to post. Maybe some of you real bodybuilders can help and incourage me.


17 cold *natural*....not pumped is huge for a 5'5'' man.....esp if you are 10% bodyfat or less
Thighs should be 25+ to be in proportion....Relaxed normal chest should be around 46.


----------



## lnvanry (Nov 3, 2005)

vader said:
			
		

> Im 35 yrs old and small compared to most of you guys, only 156lbs but I have a thyroid disorder that makes it hard to gain mass. Ive been lifting pretty hard for about 5yrs and started at 133lbs. I dont think that is to bad. Protien powders do not work for me, egg whites , steak , and chicken , no or very little bread. I am currently taking PUMP TECH and I love it . The only thing better is andro which Ive only taken once right before it went off the market . Does this mean Im not natural? I dont know all of my measurements , but this is what I do know. Im 5ft 5inches tall my waist is 29 inches , thighs are 23&3qtrs , *arms* calves & neck all measure *17inches* . Is this good ? Please reply . Im about to leave for the gym Ill try to get the rest of my measurements and a picture to post. Maybe some of you real bodybuilders can help and incourage me.


you must have a moderate to high body fat.


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## loyjay (Nov 13, 2005)

For those who maintain general fitness and are not into competetive bodybuilding, vitamins and protein powders are sufficient supplements


----------



## GYM GURU (Nov 25, 2005)

*Natural*

I am. Its all good. Natural for life.


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## joshp (Nov 26, 2005)

Only use protein powder and viatmins.  I've stayed away from creatine for two reasons. 1. Don't like the way people on it tend to get a ballooned up look 2. I personally feel like I'm cheating.  No need for you creatine users to argue back, it's just an opinion for me personally.


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## camarosuper6 (Nov 29, 2005)

lol @ cheating

cheating who? the only person you can cheat in a competition against your own self, IS yourself.

btw.. creatine is found in red meat.  Guess your a cheater :/


----------



## Thorus! (Dec 6, 2005)

gopro said:
			
		

> A distinction can be made between natural and OTC (over the counter) bodybuilders. I would consider a natural bodybuilder one that uses nothing more than food, and maybe protein powders/vitamins. I consider an OTC bodybuilder one that used only supplements that are legal for sale in any health food store. Most people that call themselves "naturals," are really OTC's.



Good point,how mush fish would we have to eat if there weren't proteins to buy!

Respect,

T.


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## smallfry (Dec 19, 2005)

We all take steroids?, you eat beef, and eggs don't you. Well every pound of beef in this country is steroid fed, to make them grow faster. Chickens are fed steroids to enhance egg laying. Steroids are used in all agricultural applications. So you don't think this trickles down?. 
Well when I was a kid a 6' sixteen year old was a freak. Now you have 6' 14 year olds by the dozen, wonder why. It sure ain't McDonald's, or then just maybe it is. We live in a fucked up country, where people will feed you anything to kill you, just to make a buck. quote by spam 40 


maybe i should go through the drive thru at mcdonalds maybe i can hope to get  some steroids and still  be considerd natural im mean  ive seen them inject the steriod in the chicken in the back  i wonder why the burgers there are so damn small and the chicken tenders are so damn big have you seen them i  hate false advetisement in the picture on # 4 the burger looks bigger than the chicken tenders hes right about mcdonalds having a fuckd up services


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## The13ig13adWolf (Dec 20, 2005)

smallfry said:
			
		

> We all take steroids?, you eat beef, and eggs don't you. Well every pound of beef in this country is steroid fed, to make them grow faster. Chickens are fed steroids to enhance egg laying. Steroids are used in all agricultural applications. So you don't think this trickles down?.
> Well when I was a kid a 6' sixteen year old was a freak. Now you have 6' 14 year olds by the dozen, wonder why. It sure ain't McDonald's, or then just maybe it is. We live in a fucked up country, where people will feed you anything to kill you, just to make a buck. quote by spam 40
> 
> 
> maybe i should go through the drive thru at mcdonalds maybe i can hope to get  some steroids and still  be considerd natural im mean  ive seen them inject the steriod in the chicken in the back  i wonder why the burgers there are so damn small and the chicken tenders are so damn big have you seen them i  hate false advetisement in the picture on # 4 the burger looks bigger than the chicken tenders hes right about mcdonalds having a fuckd up services


ease off the throttle a bit sparky...


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## Burner02 (Dec 20, 2005)

ha! she said: _sparky_...


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## bulldogge (Jan 16, 2006)

natural for life


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## LexusGS (Feb 6, 2006)

I am sorry but natural is not existing in this world no more, with my exception.


----------



## gopro (Feb 6, 2006)

LexusGS said:
			
		

> I am sorry but natural is not existing in this world no more, with my exception.



You are very special


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## LexusGS (Feb 12, 2006)

Thank you Gopro.


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## shiznit2169 (Feb 12, 2006)

LexusGS said:
			
		

> I am sorry but natural is not existing in this world no more, with my exception.



wrong.

look up tom venuto

www.bodybuildingsecrets.com


----------



## myCATpowerlifts (Feb 14, 2006)

shiznit2169 said:
			
		

> wrong.
> 
> look up tom venuto
> 
> www.bodybuildingsecrets.com



When you say natural...??

I doubt tom has never used aas or ph/s's


----------



## gopro (Feb 14, 2006)

myCATpowerlifts said:
			
		

> When you say natural...??
> 
> I doubt tom has never used aas or ph/s's



So many will claim they haven't since they became banned but they are full of sh%t. If you are a competitive natural bodybuilder I doubt you can call yourself truly natural if your definition is using nothing more than protein powder and vitamins. 99.9% of legit competitive naturals are OTC bodybuilders.


----------



## GFR (Feb 15, 2006)

If you believe the top  "Natural" Bodybuilders are not using steroids and/or GH then I have a bridge to sell you.


----------



## vickymc (Feb 18, 2006)

*Natural*

I consider myself a natural I am chairman of the BNBF and live a drug free lifestyle. 

The issues you have brought  up make it difficult to determin what is natural I am always getting e-mails about whether or not a supplement is allowed. If they have to ask dont take it that is how I have been for the last 17 years of training. I stick to supplements that are called what they are and generally are related to food ie creatine is abundant in red meat red wine and some fish so I dont think it is unnatural.

Although I take on board your point about foods we eat but that is something we cant really control unless always eating organic and then you could argue that chemicals will be in the air the rain it could go on forever.

You are a natural bodybuilder if you dont take steriods GH Insulin IGF1 prohormones etc.

Only my opinion

Vicky


----------



## GymJamo (Mar 12, 2006)

edit "why" ?


----------



## vickymc (Mar 12, 2006)

Gym Jamo 

Your experience in both is?????


----------



## Spud (Mar 12, 2006)

I'm natural: no protein supplements, no creatine, nothing. Not that I don't want to supplement my training with protein shakes/bars, it's just that I can't afford it.

It is working out pretty well at the moment. See my sig for my goals. I am going to attempt to achieve them while maintaing the no-supplement path.


----------



## clemson357 (Apr 29, 2006)

maniclion said:
			
		

> If ya wanna get serious, a pure natural bodybuilder would eat free-range meat, organic foods, take no supps at all, drink water from a mountain spring with no chemical pollutants nearby, he/she would lift stones and deadlift logs(no manufactured weights) etc.etc.
> 
> Oh and he/she wouldn't be able to breath our air due to all the pollutants.



thats retarded...


----------

