# Body Rx Almost Killed Me



## emma2train (Dec 28, 2010)

I wanted to share this so you don't have to experience it too. I started the Body Rx diet about 3 months ago and my body fat is up 20%. To make matters worse my cholesterol skyrocketed and my doctor told me if I continue I will die fat and young. Any suggestions on how to get myself in line quickly?


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## Dark Geared God (Dec 29, 2010)

quit eating mcd's


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## SFW (Dec 29, 2010)

emma2train said:


> I wanted to share this so you don't have to experience it too. I started the Body Rx diet about 3 months ago and my body fat is up 20%. To make matters worse my cholesterol skyrocketed and my doctor told me if I continue I will die fat and young. Any suggestions on how to get myself in line quickly?


 

Youre a girl. 20% is normal. Why would your doc say this to you?  

Im calling bullshit on this one.

If by chance this isnt spam/hoax/douchebaggery, i would suggest Eating less and moving around more. This method is tried and true.

Here, check out this video. It pretty much explains this breakthrough concept in detail.






YouTube Video


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## IFBB4evr (Dec 30, 2010)

Mr. Fantastico said:


> Youre a girl. 20% is normal. Why would your doc say this to you?
> 
> Im calling bullshit on this one.
> 
> ...


 Dude, what fitness or bikini model do you know that dieted for 3 months and looked good at 20 or 23% bodyfat?


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## rzrbak (Dec 30, 2010)

Diet and cardio if you are fat and your doctor calls you out on it.  Besides why would you not consult the doctor that called you out about what you should do instead of posting this on a forum that will inevitably call you on your BS.


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## emma2train (Dec 30, 2010)

I don't think any of us here live by normal standards, so forgive me for freaking out about 20+% body fat. I didn't say I wasn't taking my doctors advice into consideration, I am mostly on the cholesterol issue. Again, who here follows all of their doctors advice?


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## sassy69 (Dec 30, 2010)

What is the Body RX diet? There's a certain amount of common sense you have to keep in mind when you pick any packaged "weight loss' approach. If you see it going backwards instead of forward (and that's not your goal) then you need to stop and reassess what you are doing. Often even small tweaks will make the changes you need.

If this really happened then you need to first stop worrying about finding some HOLYFUCKINGGODINEEDTOLOSE20LBNOW!!!!! approach and just clean up your diet, get back to basics and just let your body make the change. Usually if you made some dramatic change in your life over a very short period of time that resulted in dramatic weight loss or gain, your body hasn't had enough time to readjust its metabolic "set point" (i.e. where your body / metabolism "likes" to run at) to that higher or lower level. So if you just get things back in order, your body will respond and you should get back to what was your previous "set point" fairly quickly. But again, if you now spend your time panicking and looking for kneejerk quicky weight loss programs to get back to whatever it was you were 3 months ago, you're going to dig yourself in deeper, as your body can only respond so quickly and if you try to do things / take things to force it, it will respond by dropping its metabolic rate and tell you to go fuck yourself while it figures wtf is going on.

So my recommendation would be to ge a copy of Bill Philips' BODY FOR LIFE book and just follow that for a couple months. Its a basic diet outline (not a restricted and rigid meal plan that makes life miserable) w/ good basic recommendations and food options that you can pick per your tastes and your lifestyle, get the training & cardio going (again not extreme - just consistent) and let your body do what it was designed to do. Remember - your body WANTS to run efficiently - so just let it and you'll get predictable and sustainable results.


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## Merkaba (Dec 30, 2010)

Body RX....???  what is this?  Why not just eat what you know you're supposed to and get in some good exercise.  There are no gimmicks or special things to do.  The trainer/consultant nowadays is all about bringing people back down out of the overmarketed diet/dvd/gimmick/bullcrap arena and return to basics.  what are you eating on a daily basis?


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## SloppyJ (Dec 30, 2010)

What's this knee jerking you talk about? ^^^


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## Merkaba (Dec 30, 2010)

sassy69 said:


> What is the Body RX diet? There's a certain amount of common sense you have to keep in mind when you pick any packaged "weight loss' approach. If you see it going backwards instead of forward (and that's not your goal) then you need to stop and reassess what you are doing. Often even small tweaks will make the changes you need.
> 
> If this really happened then you need to first stop worrying about finding some HOLYFUCKINGGODINEEDTOLOSE20LBNOW!!!!! approach and just clean up your diet, get back to basics and just let your body make the change. Usually if you made some dramatic change in your life over a very short period of time that resulted in dramatic weight loss or gain, your body hasn't had enough time to readjust its metabolic "set point" (i.e. where your body / metabolism "likes" to run at) to that higher or lower level. So if you just get things back in order, your body will respond and you should get back to what was your previous "set point" fairly quickly. But again, if you now spend your time panicking and looking for kneejerk quicky weight loss programs to get back to whatever it was you were 3 months ago, you're going to dig yourself in deeper, as your body can only respond so quickly and if you try to do things / take things to force it, it will respond by dropping its metabolic rate and tell you to go fuck yourself while it figures wtf is going on.
> 
> So my recommendation would be to ge a copy of Bill Philips' BODY FOR LIFE book and just follow that for a couple months. Its a basic diet outline (not a restricted and rigid meal plan that makes life miserable) w/ good basic recommendations and food options that you can pick per your tastes and your lifestyle, get the training & cardio going (again not extreme - just consistent) and let your body do what it was designed to do. Remember - your body WANTS to run efficiently - so just let it and you'll get predictable and sustainable results.



quoted for truth


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## awhites1 (Dec 30, 2010)

Merkaba said:


> Body RX....???  what is this?


exactly. wth is she talking about?? 



Mr. Fantastico said:


> Youre a girl. 20% is normal. Why would your doc say this to you?
> 
> Im calling bullshit on this one.
> 
> If by chance this isnt spam/hoax/douchebaggery,



yeah im going with this is some weird spam bull shit


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## Gena Marie (Dec 30, 2010)

Everyone wants the quick fix.  I have been searching for it for years, still haven't found it.  Diet, Diet, Diet.  No one wants the hear that, but it is what it is.  I had so many friends that though loo0king the way I do comes easy.  I wish!  I eat better then most people just to maintain what I have, and as we all know, it's not easy and quiet boring.
I had a girlfriend who was I'm gonna say 300lbs +.  Her quick fix almost 2 years ago, was Gastric Bypass surgery.    
Sure the 1st year she lost almost half of herself, ate like she was suppose to, exercised regularly.  I kid you not, rough guess, but since her surgery, at least 150+ 3 cheese nachos later from Qudoba, she is heavier then she was when she got this $50k 
procedure.  
Money well spent!  Luck for her, she had health insurance that paid for her "quick fix".  What a bunch of shit.  
Diet, Diet, Diet!


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## Built (Dec 30, 2010)

I found a summary of the Body RX plan - I am posting it here for info, with no guarantee that it is correct. There's a bunch more on this here: http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/muscle-matters/53430-body-rx-basics.html
***​
This is an overview of the *Body Rx* program by Dr. Scott Connelly.  BRx is a 6-month program consisting of 4 6-week cycles. Each cycle has a  different goal, with a nutrition & exercise plan geared toward  those goals. According to Connelly, nutrition is really the essential  part. He claims that the only way you can *NOT* get good results is by *NOT*  following the nutrition plan. For most people nutrition accounts for  70% of the results with exercise and recovery accounting for the rest.  This is why there are so many people out there toiling away in gyms  without getting results...the nutrition part is _extremely_ important. 
*
.....................................Body Rx Nutrition.....................................* 

Foods are divided into groups, like a traffic light...

*GREEN:* *GO!* You may eat as many of these as you like. 
*YELLOW:   Caution!* These are restricted but allowed.
*RED: **Stop!*  Special occasions only. These are comparable to BFL free day foods.

*...............................Cycle 1: Getting Stronger...............................* 

*Protein ~* 1g per pound of body weight measured at the beginning of cycle. 
*GREEN:*  Make the vast majority of your protein choices from these foods.
*YELLOW: *  2 servings per week.
*RED: *Special occasions.

*Carbs ~*  2g per pound of body weight measured at the beginning of cycle. 
*GREEN:*  Unlimited, does not count towards your total.
*YELLOW: *  Stick within your limits.
*RED: *Special occasions, count towards your limits.

*Fiber ~* 30g 

*...............................Cycle 2: Getting Sculpted...............................*

*Protein ~* 1.25g per pound of body weight measured at the beginning of cycle.  
*GREEN:*  Make the vast majority of your protein choices from these foods.
*YELLOW:*  1 serving per week.
*RED: *Special occasions.

*Carbs ~*  1g per pound of body weight measured at the beginning of cycle.       
*GREEN:*  Unlimited, does not count towards your total.
*YELLOW:*  Stick within your limits.
*RED: *Special occasions, count towards your limits.

*Fiber ~* 45g

*...................................Cycle 3: Burning Fat...................................*

*Protein ~*  1.5g per pound of body weight at the beginning of cycle. 

*GREEN:*  Make the vast majority of your protein choices from these foods.
*YELLOW:  NONE
**RED: **NONE*

*Carbs ~* .5g per pound of body weight measured at the beginning of cycle. 
*GREEN:*  Unlimited, does not count towards your total.
*YELLOW: *  Stick within your limits.
*RED: **NONE*

*Fiber ~*  60g

*.......................Cycle 4: Maintenance and Endurance.......................*

*Protein ~*  1.25g per pound of body weight measured at the beginning of cycle. 
*GREEN:*  Make the vast majority of your protein choices from these foods. 
*YELLOW:*  4 servings per week.
*RED: *Special occasions.

*Carbs ~*  1.5g per pound of body weight measured at the beginning of cycle. 
*GREEN:*  Unlimited, does not count towards your total.
*YELLOW: *  Stick within your limits.
*RED: *Special occasions, count towards your limits.

*Fiber ~* 50g 

*........................................THE WORKOUT......................................* 

BRx has a 4 day split.  There are 5 exercises for each day. Connelly  suggests mostly machines in the book because they are better for  beginners, who may have bad form using free weights. You can do free  weights instead.

The 4-day weight training split is as follows:

*1. Chest/Biceps*


*1.*  Basic Machine Chest Press (or Alternate Chest Press)
*2.*  Incline Press (or Alternate Incline Press)
*3.*  Fly Maneuver (or Alternate Fly Maneuver)
*4.*  Dumbell Curl
*5.*  Preacher Curl
*2. Back/Triceps*

*1.*  Lat Pull-Down   
*2.*  Seated Row
*3.*  Seated Wide-Grip Row
*4.*  Triceps Push-Down
*5.*  Triceps extension
*3.  Legs/Hamstrings/Calves*

*1.*  Angled Leg Press
*2.*  Leg Extension
*3.*  Lying Leg Curl
*4.*  Standing Calf Raise
*5.*  Donkey Calf Raise
*4. Shoulders/Abs*

*1.*  Machine Shoulder Press
*2.*  Seated Lateral Raise
*3.*  Rear Deltoids (Chest Fly machine)
*4.*  Forward Crunch
*5.*  Reverse Crunch
The sets/reps/rests are different for each 6 week cycle:

*...............................Cycle 1: Getting Stronger...............................* 


  2 warm-up sets (light weight)
  3 working sets
  4-6 repetitions each set
  Move up in weight when you can complete the 6th repetition in the last set
  3 minutes  of rest between sets
*...............................Cycle 2: Getting Sculpted...............................* 


  Warm-up sets optional
  4-5 working sets (4 for large muscle groups, 5 for small muscle groups)
  8-10 repetitions each set
  Move up in weight when you can complete the 10th repetition in the  last set (you may only get to 4 or so repetitions in the final set  initially)
  1.5 minutes of rest between sets
*...................................Cycle 3: Burning Fat...................................*


  Warm-up sets optional
  5-6 working sets (4 for large muscle groups, 5 for small muscle groups)
  6-12 repetitions each set
  Move up in weight when you can complete the 12th repetition in the  last set (you may only get to 4 or so repetitions in the final set  initially)
  1 minute of rest between sets
*.......................Cycle 4: Maintenance and Endurance.......................*
 ...............6 weeks, divided into 2-week blocks, 4 days a week...............

*Weeks 1-2*


  Warm-up sets optional
  3 working sets
  12 repetitions each set
  Move up in weight when you can complete the 12th repetition in the last set
  1 minute of rest between sets
*Weeks 3-4*


  Warm-up sets optional
  3 working sets
  16 repetitions each set
  Move up in weight when you can complete the 16th repetition in the last set
  1.5 minutes of rest between sets
*Weeks 5-6*


  Warm-up sets optional
  3 working sets
  20 repetitions each set
  Move up in weight when you can complete the 20th repetition in the last set
  2 minutes of rest between sets


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## SloppyJ (Dec 30, 2010)

WHere's the foods?


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## emma2train (Dec 30, 2010)

Thanks for the suggestion. I was initially just looking for something to up my game a bit naturally. It back fired in a bad way. I should've just stuck to my routine of clean food and trained harder. I was stupid and got suckered 'reprogramming bullshit'. 
I'll check out that Body for Life book.


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## Built (Dec 30, 2010)

I found a link in the internet archive: 
http://web.archive.org/web/20060112105344/http://www.umassmed.edu/behavmed/uploads/trafficlight.doc


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## Built (Dec 30, 2010)

emma, what are your goals? There are better, easier, and more effective strategies available to you than BFL. The link in my sig on getting started is one, and it's free.


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## sassy69 (Dec 30, 2010)

Agree w/ Built - I recommend BFL becaues we had no history of what your past eating habits are like - most people fail because they have no understanding of just good basic eating habits and look for these crazy strict diets for quicky results, and then realize they can't handle them (because they're ridiculous) and then fail even worse. So if you've got the basics down, then absolutely check out Built's stuff. I just think BFL is a good place to start if you've got nothing but panic-based expectations and no idea of what makes up just a good, clean diet & basic training.


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## Built (Dec 30, 2010)

Ah, sorry Sassy - I hadn't read above where you had posted it. When it came out, BFL was easily the best of its kind on the market. It was (and for some, still is) the way bodybuilders trained and ate. It works - a lot of things work - but given what we know now, it can overcomplicated things. Still, there are far worse programs on the market.


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## Gena Marie (Dec 30, 2010)

I really got a lot out of "Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle".  I have suggested it to several of my friends that needed a point in the right direction.
Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle


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## rzrbak (Dec 30, 2010)

Gena Marie said:


> Everyone wants the quick fix. I have been searching for it for years, still haven't found it. Diet, Diet, Diet. No one wants the hear that, but it is what it is. I had so many friends that though loo0king the way I do comes easy. I wish! I eat better then most people just to maintain what I have, and as we all know, it's not easy and quiet boring.
> I had a girlfriend who was I'm gonna say 300lbs +. Her quick fix almost 2 years ago, was Gastric Bypass surgery.
> Sure the 1st year she lost almost half of herself, ate like she was suppose to, exercised regularly. I kid you not, rough guess, but since her surgery, at least 150+ 3 cheese nachos later from Qudoba, she is heavier then she was when she got this $50k
> procedure.
> ...


 
Surgery or any quick fix will show some short term results but it is never sustainable.  You have to change your habits and routines and this is only achieved through discipline and repetition.  We all know that eating the 2500 calorie double cheeseburger with a large french fry and a supersized Coke is not good for us.  We can resist but the folks that are looking for the quick fixes will always return to those bad habits because it is too much work for them to diet and workout.


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## Built (Dec 30, 2010)

Gena Marie said:


> I really got a lot out of "Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle".  I have suggested it to several of my friends that needed a point in the right direction.


Seriously? I do NOT like that programme, especially for women. There is no way I could feel comfortable with my fats that low, six micro-meals a day and with so much cardio. I guess it works for some.


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## Gena Marie (Dec 30, 2010)

Built said:


> Seriously? I do NOT like that programme, especially for women. There is no way I could feel comfortable with my fats that low, six micro-meals a day and with so much cardio. I guess it works for some.



I am, not saying it worked 100% for me, but I liked the message it sent.  Like you said, we need to be taught certain habits.  I have been lucky for everything Rob has taught me, but if I were coming into this world with very little knowledge, I think the book had a lot of great, beginning, somewhere to start, info.  
It still comes back to diet, no matter what book you read.  As a small girl, I deal with the food dilemma everyday.  What I want to eat, vs  what I want or would like to eat.  Knowledge and discipline.  Plain and simple


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## Built (Dec 30, 2010)

I know - knowledge is the thing though. Eating six meals a day, for a women on already-low calories, is misery. If I had started with BFFM, I would have decided my goals were unattainable, and given up.


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## Gena Marie (Dec 30, 2010)

I fully agree with you.  Maybe that is way I don't eat and train the way I use to.  Burnt out perhaps.  I guess we all need to find out the best routine that works for us and stick with it.  No excuses, just do it.  I do believe education is key


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## Built (Dec 30, 2010)

I don't know how you used to train and eat, and I don't know how you train and eat now so I can't really postulate on a reason. 

We know a lot more now than we did then. Sadly, I still see too many people, some on this board, who still advocate a percentage-based diet and who wax poetic about how eating small, frequent meals will "stoke the metabolic furnace". 

I'm tired of it.


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## IFBB4evr (Dec 30, 2010)

Gena Marie said:


> I really got a lot out of "Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle". I have suggested it to several of my friends that needed a point in the right direction.


 

Hi Gena, who wrote 'Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle'?

Then when you diet down into contest or bikini shape, what percentage of Body Fat are you?


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## Gena Marie (Dec 31, 2010)

IFBB4evr said:


> Hi Gena, who wrote 'Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle'?
> 
> Then when you diet down into contest or bikini shape, what percentage of Body Fat are you?



It was written my Tom Venuto, I believe in 2003.  It's a E-book on this main site that we have been promoting for years.  Check it out.
I did not sure this program when I completed.  When I did compete, I got my BF close to 7 ~ 8% range.  
Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle

When I read books and articles, I don't take anything word for word.  I find and use pieces of info that best works for me.  I have never followed any program word for word.


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## Arnold (Dec 31, 2010)

Gena Marie said:


> Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle



BFFM is a great starting point for beginners, I highly recommend it.


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## Built (Dec 31, 2010)

You got down to 7% bodyfat Gina? I've only seen female pro BB's get down that low. That's crazy! You must have had veins in your hams!


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## Arnold (Dec 31, 2010)

yeah, she had cross striations on her ass as well.


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## Gena Marie (Dec 31, 2010)

Built said:


> You got down to 7% bodyfat Gina? I've only seen female pro BB's get down that low. That's crazy! You must have had veins in your hams!



Yes, during the Colorado State show, I was super lean.  I didn't place because I was too lean and to muscular, and that is not how they want the figure girls to look.  I was told to go back to bodybuilding.  Thanks for asking


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## Built (Dec 31, 2010)

You're not the only woman I've heard of this happening to - a friend of mine came in second for a figure show because she was too ripped. I don't think she was 7% either. 

Kinda like being too good-looking or too rich, ain't it?


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## Gena Marie (Dec 31, 2010)

Built said:


> You're not the only woman I've heard of this happening to - a friend of mine came in second for a figure show because she was too ripped. I don't think she was 7% either.
> 
> Kinda like being too good-looking or too rich, ain't it?



In deed it does suck, lol.

It was weird because I place 1st in a show 6 weeks before, a national qualifying show, then to not place at all.  My ego was brused, but I kept at it.  Rob says I was closer to 8 ~ 9% bf, either way, still sucked.  I think that is when I decided this isn't the sport for me.  I will always eat well and train hard, but competing is a whole neither world.  My avatar pic was in the last show I did.  Rob was super supportive, but I knew I wasn't ready to step on stage.  I let too many personal things in my life at that time, set me back.  I think at that time in my life, I gave up on my fitness goals and passions.  I do not think I will ever compete again, but I want to stay and look hard and fit.
Happy New Year to you beautiful girl.  Thanks for the challenge


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## Built (Jan 1, 2011)

The competition thing is a funny one. Personally, I'd rather diet and prep, then hire a really, REALLY good photographer. Cheaper, and you get to peak when YOU peak - not when you're TOLD to peak. 

No weight classes, either.


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## emma2train (Jan 7, 2011)

Well it's a New Year and I've started moving forward from that Body Rx Scam diet. What a catastrophe. So, Happy New Year!
someone had asked for my diet.....
The usual 5 to 6 small meals a day consisting of whatever combo of the list below.
steeel cut oats with or w/out cinnamon, chopped pecans
hard boiled eggs
eggs cooked any way
grilled or baked fish
eggplant-rarely
portobello mushrooms-w/tomatoes and cheese-2x month
spinach
brussel sprouts
asparagus
broccoli
baked yams
tuna
1-2 glasses red wine couple times a month
peanut butter couple times a month

I am hoping to be able to check out those books this weekend. Thanks for the tips


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## Built (Jan 7, 2011)

I'd reconsider your diet plans. 6 meals a day while cutting, and on a low-fat diet, is misery.


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## Gena Marie (Jan 7, 2011)

emma2train said:


> Well it's a New Year and I've started moving forward from that Body Rx Scam diet. What a catastrophe. So, Happy New Year!
> someone had asked for my diet.....
> The usual 5 to 6 small meals a day consisting of whatever combo of the list below.
> steeel cut oats with or w/out cinnamon, chopped pecans
> ...



That is an amazing meal plan.  You should reach your goals in no time.  Good luck!


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## Built (Jan 7, 2011)

Gena Marie said:


> That is an amazing meal plan.  You should reach your goals in no time.  Good luck!



That's interesting - you and I have completely different opinions of her diet plan. Why do you think it's amazing? I think it's ghastly!


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## Gena Marie (Jan 8, 2011)

Built said:


> That's interesting - you and I have completely different opinions of her diet plan. Why do you think it's amazing? I think it's ghastly!



Amazing at the fact that one could cut so many things out of their diet.  Will she keep to eating like this for a long period of time, most likely not.  I think it is a great plan if you are trying to lose fat and to lean up.  It is more of a competition diet, if anything.
I also think that once you really clean up your diet, you start to look and feel better.  I know for myself, when I have a greasy fattening meal, I feel like shit.  I think she is heading in the right direction for life time eating choices.


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## Built (Jan 8, 2011)

Gena Marie said:


> Amazing at the fact that one could cut so many things out of their diet.  Will she keep to eating like this for a long period of time, most likely not.  I think it is a great plan if you are trying to lose fat and to lean up.  It is more of a competition diet, if anything.
> I also think that once you really clean up your diet, you start to look and feel better.  I know for myself, when I have a greasy fattening meal, I feel like shit.  I think she is heading in the right direction for life time eating choices.


I agree with you that she's at least trying to sort out what to do, but you said it yourself: "Will she keep to eating like this for a long period of time, most likely not." By definition, this means she's making a poor choice in terms of how to achieve - and maintain - her losses. 

Maybe it's a perspective thing, Gena Marie - you are and have long been a competitive physique athlete. You understand how to compartmentalize hunger in order to focus on the endpoint. 

I was a fat chick for twenty years. My number one lifestyle concern is hunger. 

I will NOT do "hungry". Even when I dieted down to my avatar and profile pix, I didn't go hungry or overtrain. The worst I dealt with was "I COULD eat more", plus the odd food craving.  I diet on high-fats; I ate chocolate (not much, but some) every day and I took regular full-blown cheat meals along the way. 

In maintenance as I currently am, I eat a very high fat diet (more than half my calories come from fat), three large meals a day eaten fairly close together, no snacks and I postpone my first meal of the day until as close to noon as I can manage. I eat no grain and I eat cheese daily. I also eat a lot of vegetables, always oiled or buttered.  And I don't worry if there's some fat on the meats I consume. I eat red meat daily. 

I've kept the weight off for going on ten years now (recall 95% regain what they lost within two years), and I've been able to do this because I pay attention to the tricks that keep me feeling fed. Keeping my fats high, grains low, and reducing meal frequency have been key to my own continuing success. 

I am aware that what makes one person feel full doesn't always extend to all, but for many of us who have been fat, hunger is permanently disproportionnate to our metabolic requirements. The tricks I employ I have learned through a combination of peer-reviewed research and trial-and-error. Every time I read something new that might help me stay full, I try it - and if it works, I use it. Meal frequency is one of those - there appears to be a "meal threshold" for lasting satiety, and meals that are too small won't trigger it. The result is constant, low-level hunger, which in a former fatty like myself is utterly unbearable; for those who have not been obese, it may be tolerable, I don't know because I can't. I imagine it is, or nobody would have tried it. What comforts me is the knowledge that frequent feedings are neither advantageous nor necessary, because there is no way on God's green earth I could have felt that unfed for the last ten years!


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## Gena Marie (Jan 8, 2011)

Built, you have obviously found what works for you and that is amazing.  You look fantastic.  You bring up a lot of great points.  No I have never been obese, so I do not know what it is like to have food as my priority and food cravings, well except while dieting down for competition.  That is when the weird food dreams and extreme cravings come in to play for me.  I am ok with that because it makes my end result all that more rewarding.  

We all have our own issues with food.  I can't do high fat meals or eat 3 large meals a day.  I have struggled for over 15 years with bulimia.  To me it is a mental illness.  I do not like feeling full, I do not like the feeling of heavy fats in my stomach.  That just doesn't work for me.  I eat chocolate, I drink beer and I love Mexican and Italian foods.  All things that are not all that good for you.  What has worked for me is moderation.  Small, frequent meals.  Does this work for you, no.  Who is to say what is the right way?  

We all have to do our research and do things through trial and error to see what works for our own body types.  You are right, she is making poor choices, but isn't all part of the whole trial and error thing?  She will not know what works for her long term is she doesn't try.


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## Built (Jan 8, 2011)

Gena Marie said:


> Built, you have obviously found what works for you and that is amazing.  You look fantastic.  You bring up a lot of great points.  No I have never been obese, so I do not know what it is like to have food as my priority and food cravings, well except while dieting down for competition.  That is when the weird food dreams and extreme cravings come in to play for me.  I am ok with that because it makes my end result all that more rewarding.



See that's just it. For you, it's short-term. For anyone who has been obese, that feeling of pre-contest prep is what normal dieting feels like when we're 20% bodyfat. It's not sustainable. Once you've been obese, the fat cells are there, and they're hungry. They never, ever go away and they never stop bitching for food. There is no profound reward of looking amazing for a few weeks, a few hours on a stage. There's just the prolonged drudgery of never really feeling fed. At lest, that's what six meals of low-fat food feels like, even at maintenance. 

Dieted down fatties need fullness more than dieted-down normals, or the satiety signals don't kick in. This is particularly true of type II diabetics, who have for YEARS been told to eat small, frequent meals to control blood sugar. It turns out that there's a threshold for the insulin/incretin/etc hormonal cascade to kick in. Larger meals and periods of fasting offer better glycemic control to type II diabetics. These hormonal cascades are strongly implicated in satiety. Feeling well-fed year round on six meals daily is more an exception than a rule. Not impossible though. It does work for some. Just not most. 



> We all have our own issues with food.  I can't do high fat meals or eat 3 large meals a day.  I have struggled for over 15 years with bulimia.  To me it is a mental illness.


To anyone it is a mental illness, GM. I'm sorry you have to cope with this one.



> I do not like feeling full, I do not like the feeling of heavy fats in my stomach.  That just doesn't work for me.  I eat chocolate, I drink beer and I love Mexican and Italian foods.  All things that are not all that good for you.  What has worked for me is moderation.  Small, frequent meals.  Does this work for you, no.


It would work, if I could stick to it. It's so miserable, I can't.  Moderation, of course, is another word for portion control, and it's the only actual way to keep weight off for anyone. It's just a matter of finding a way to do this and not mind. 

What's not healthy about chocolate, beer, or Mexican or Italian food?


> Who is to say what is the right way?
> 
> We all have to do our research and do things through trial and error to see what works for our own body types.  You are right, she is making poor choices, but isn't all part of the whole trial and error thing?



Not when there is science to support choices which are more likely to find her success. Randomly trying things isn't smart. You can't live long enough to try them all and sooner or later you get disappointed and quit. I almost did. We can at least offer her paradigms that are more likely to work than to encourage her to use lousy ones just because "at least she's doing trial and error". 





> She will not know what works for her long term is she doesn't try.


 She needs to start from a reasonably likely starting point. The one she's using fails for 95% of those who try it. 

The small frequent meal thing works for some in spite of how our bodies  are set up, not because of it. There is grounded, peer-reviewed science  to support larger, less-frequent feedings as being more satiating. Most  of the stuff that worked on me works on the worst metabolic disasters.  Eating disorders are a whole 'nother ballgame. I was fat, but I never  had any issues with food. I never felt guilty over food, never punished  myself over food or rewarded myself with it. I was just hungry. Once I  figured out how to not be hungry, the rest was just a matter of putting  in the time. That part's hard enough even with the RIGHT information. No point having her waste time on stuff that will only set her up.


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## Gena Marie (Jan 8, 2011)

What's not healthy about chocolate, beer, or Mexican or Italian food?

Chocolate is loaded with fat and calories, beer slows down your metabolism when you drink as much as I do and Mexican and Italian foods, the way I like them, are loaded in fat and carbs. 

I am quiet naive when it comes to a lot of what you are saying.  I have not educated myself as well as maybe I should, but never the less, girl, I think you need to take it down a notch or two.  Someone is coming here looking for advice and you choose to jump all over/debate people who don't have the same beliefs as you.  To me, it seems like this thread is giving mixed signals.  It is going against why this board exists in the 1st place.

Just my opinion.


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## Built (Jan 8, 2011)

You are posting about your beliefs and your personal experience as a fitness competitor who has never been fat and who has an eating disorder. All valid, important information. 

I am posting the leading edge of scientific discovery surrounding diet and training. I have come through 20 years of obesity with no disordered eating, and have kept the weight off for almost ten years because I've kept my ear very close to the ground and applied the best of what we now know about diet and satiety. I have no beliefs. Prove me wrong, give me a better way that's easier and more effective, and I will happily recant everything I've ever written.

No disrespect GM, but I won't just go along with the status quo to keep the peace. I can back up every statement I've made with recent, peer-reviewed research and I have many people on this board whom I have helped because I keep current. 

The fats in chocolate are healthy fats. Sugar is just calories; your body knows what to do with them. Beer doesn't slow your metabolism; the alcohol is burned first and if you're a man, alcohol temporarily reduces testosterone output, but that's it. The fats in Mexican and Italian food are fine - Mexican's use a lot of lard, which is a very healthy fat to consume. Italians use a lot of olive oil, which is also a very healthy fat to consume. I hate to be a harbinger of good news, GM, but none of your "cheat" foods is bad for you! Be happy!


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## juggernaut (Jan 9, 2011)

Gotta go with Built on this one, being a former fatty. I'd much rather have 3 or 4 filling meals than 6-10. I had a situation like this with a friend who insisted I eat the way Gena found useful when he trained me. This was the only way he knew how to do things and it was to close-minded for me. I hated it, and found that I was eating off-balance with my family and could and couldnt sit with them with meals. I was brought up to believe that having meals together is important and very crucial to my family's well being. I brought this tradition to my own family and we still to this day have many meals together out of tradition. 
I hated eating this way also because I never felt satisfied. In short, it didnt work and I was fucking miserable because I was always looking for the next "fix". I felt bound to a clock. With Built's help, I was able to see other ways of doing things and found what worked long term.


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## Gena Marie (Jan 9, 2011)

Built said:


> You are posting about your beliefs and your personal experience as a fitness competitor who has never been fat and who has an eating disorder. All valid, important information.
> 
> I am posting the leading edge of scientific discovery surrounding diet and training. I have come through 20 years of obesity with no disordered eating, and have kept the weight off for almost ten years because I've kept my ear very close to the ground and applied the best of what we now know about diet and satiety. I have no beliefs. Prove me wrong, give me a better way that's easier and more effective, and I will happily recant everything I've ever written.
> 
> ...



Built, 
You are extremely intelligent.  Again, you know far more about this issue then I do and perhaps it is because I have never been obese, therefore, I do not keep up on the latest and greatest.  I feel lucky that I have found a life style that works for me.
I do eat cheat meals, 2 ~3 times a week.  I have a little chocolate most everyday like you.  I do know the difference between good and bad fats.  Rob is part Italian, so I cook Italian food all the time.  
I don't feel any disrespect what so ever.  You know what you know and you are sharing your knowledge with whom ever wants it.  You do your research and it shows.  You are a great asset to have.

Much love and respect


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## Gena Marie (Jan 9, 2011)

juggernaut said:


> Gotta go with Built on this one, being a former fatty. I'd much rather have 3 or 4 filling meals than 6-10. I had a situation like this with a friend who insisted I eat the way Gena found useful when he trained me. This was the only way he knew how to do things and it was to close-minded for me. I hated it, and found that I was eating off-balance with my family and could and couldnt sit with them with meals. I was brought up to believe that having meals together is important and very crucial to my family's well being. I brought this tradition to my own family and we still to this day have many meals together out of tradition.
> I hated eating this way also because I never felt satisfied. In short, it didnt work and I was fucking miserable because I was always looking for the next "fix". I felt bound to a clock. With Built's help, I was able to see other ways of doing things and found what worked long term.



You know as I stated in past posts, we all have to find what works for them.  With Builts help, you found your way.  That way does not work for me.  I was a 3 meal a day girl and was miserable.  I am not on a strict 5 ~ 10 meal a day person.  I eat when I get hungry.  For me, that works.


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## sassy69 (Jan 9, 2011)

To the OP - as you can see, there are many ways to achieve your goals. The most successful way is the way that best fits your lifestyle - so its not a diet (i.e. DIE w/ a T), but rather the "way" you live & eat. For many there is a huge push to do an extreme and rigid diet to get "quick results". I like the BFL style because its essentially your 3 usual meals and a couple snacks in between. But better, I like that it gives you a clean list of foods (not a meal plan) and gives you the flexibility to try it and see what works best for your taste in foods, gives you a scheduled cheat meal (this is more of an outlet for people who have to work on cleaning up their diet in general - its the random cheats that kill progress). Its also about paying attention to your portions. Another huge source of setting yourself up for failure. 

Personally I grew up w/ the extra 10-15 lb. I dropped weight in college when I started swimming laps for an hour every nite - it was more for stress management than specificaly for weight loss. Back then I didn't know much about successful dieting and was limited by the shit in the college dorm. But the consistent swimming worked wonders. I've also been a gym rat in one form or another since 1981 but it honestly wasn't until I did my first show in 2000 that I was able to pull the diet, training and cardio together to come down to 8% bodyfat. I dropped 18 lb over a 4 month period. The final 4-5% bodyfat would be more extreme than a non-competitor would be interested in, but it was still the diet & cardio that made the difference, and in both cases the consistency. 

RE: diet I've been doing the 6 small meals thing since the mid 90s and its just how I like to eat these days. My body type doesn't respond well w/ either high fat or high carb so I keep both of them more moderate.  If I am hungry I will eat accordingly tho. But awarenesss of what I'm eating and how much of it is the more important thing. I've done some extreme diets in my time that I don't recommend, even for competition. 

Pick an approach and stick w/ it for an honest 3 weeks and take note of what satiates you, what doesn't, when you get hungry, when you don't. At the least, sticking to controlled portions will help clean out general sugar cravings and get you to where you can appreciate the taste of good clean food w/o all the crap. That alone is a great feeling. I found things like I can digest better and generally feel a lot more comfortable. But also you want to fuel for your energy demands so pay attention to how you feel going into the gym and also how you feel coming out.


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## emma2train (Jan 10, 2011)

Thanks ladies. It is actually my old diet I returning too. I have managed to find a comfortable place there for several years now with the occasional cheat of course. I'm kind of weird when it comes to food. I don't like to eat a lot of any one thing at a time and don't like feeling weighted and full so eating many small meals comes naturally. I usually am pretty lean because of it too I think. That's probably why I ballooned, at least for me. My body went into shock from all that fat, etc. It kinda grossed me out really. 
I have to confess that I keep dark chocolate in my fridge and steal a bite every once in a while. I also can't resist that fresh baked bread at a good restaurant. Other than that I'm pretty consistent. 
I didn't get to go to the bookstore this weekend but am definitely looking into those books. I think I am going to hook up with my old trainer soon and see if we can put together a new routine for me. 
Congratulations definitely on keeping the weight off for so long. You look amazing!


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## Arnold (Jan 10, 2011)

sassy69 said:


> To the OP - as you can see, there are many ways to achieve your goals. The most successful way is the way that best fits your lifestyle - so its not a diet (i.e. DIE w/ a T), but rather the "way" you live & eat. For many there is a huge push to do an extreme and rigid diet to get "quick results". I like the BFL style because its essentially your 3 usual meals and a couple snacks in between. But better, I like that it gives you a clean list of foods (not a meal plan) and gives you the flexibility to try it and see what works best for your taste in foods, gives you a scheduled cheat meal (this is more of an outlet for people who have to work on cleaning up their diet in general - its the random cheats that kill progress). Its also about paying attention to your portions. Another huge source of setting yourself up for failure.
> 
> Personally I grew up w/ the extra 10-15 lb. I dropped weight in college when I started swimming laps for an hour every nite - it was more for stress management than specificaly for weight loss. Back then I didn't know much about successful dieting and was limited by the shit in the college dorm. But the consistent swimming worked wonders. I've also been a gym rat in one form or another since 1981 but it honestly wasn't until I did my first show in 2000 that I was able to pull the diet, training and cardio together to come down to 8% bodyfat. I dropped 18 lb over a 4 month period. The final 4-5% bodyfat would be more extreme than a non-competitor would be interested in, but it was still the diet & cardio that made the difference, and in both cases the consistency.
> 
> ...



very well put! 

the bottom line is we are all individuals and no one approach works well for everyone, which is what Gena was trying to say.


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## awhites1 (Jan 10, 2011)




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## Built (Jan 10, 2011)

With respect, fat-loss is the same for everyone: eat less than you need; do something to hang onto muscle. 

Ignoring lifestyle, preference and comfort, (and barring profound illness), what works for one will work for 100% of all humans. We are all more similar than different. Were this not true, there would be no point studying anatomy, physiology, endocrinology and human kinetics. 

Satiety, on the other hand, has far more variability, even for the same person at different states of health, leanness and physical conditioning, not to mention age. Healthy normals find carbohydrates satiating because they stimulate an insulin response. Protein suppresses ghrelin and stimulates leptin and CCK. Fat stimulates CCK also. But in the obese, ghrelin rebound (which stimulates hunger) may occur following carbohydrate consumption, particularly if protein intake is insufficient. 

In bulimia, postprandial CCK is delayed relative to "normals", and may not kick in until 40 minutes after a meal, which leads to binging because the person is still hungry, even while full-to-bursting. (there are tricks to avoiding this and if anyone with bulimia is reading this, PM me for details).
Formerly-obese people often (usually) have impaired satiety issues for life, meaning once we diet off the weight, we generally don't respond the same as "normals" to ordinary satiety cues, such as insulin-response and fullness. The problem becomes apparent when a former-fatty like me or Juggernaut tries to use a method that generally only works well on never-truly-fat physique-athletes such as Gena Marie, who dieted down from "healthy-lean" to "contest lean" for her shows but who has never put on the volume of fat-cells an obese person carries. 

This does much to explain why lowfat, high-fibre diets resplendent with whole grains do shit to make folks like me feel full, although this same mix may make a never-fat athlete feel just fine as he or she diets down to single-digit bodyfat. 

It also explains the often-quoted "95% will gain it back" observation about fat people who lose weight. Fat people are never normal again, even after we become lean, so following a diet that may work fine for most normals is likely to fail for us because we'll be too hungry. 
If you want to lose it, eat less. That part's simple. If you want to KEEP it off, learn how to feel fed - and recognize that current research backs up the observation that many of us former fatties have noticed: small, frequent feedings keep us unsatisfied and kinda hungry all day - even though this paradigm has been the mainstay of mainstream fitness lore for many generations. As Prince, Sassy and others have noted, meal frequency is not at all important to your goals - that part's just a matter of eating the right number of calories. 

Preplan and pack up your food. Eat it whenever it suits you - when it's gone, it's gone and if you stick to that, you'll hit whatever goals you set for yourself. But don't just fall into the "everybody's different" trap. There are broad strokes that fit almost everybody: eat enough protein, eat enough healthy fat, don't overtrain to lose weight and don't run too strong of a deficit for too long. The other parts, things like eating/not eating grains, meal frequency, food selection and so on are the points of individuation regarding satiety and compliance.


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## colorado (Jan 10, 2011)

Built said:


> With respect, fat-loss is the same for everyone: eat less than you need; do something to hang onto muscle.
> 
> Ignoring lifestyle, preference and comfort, (and barring profound illness), what works for one will work for 100% of all humans. We are all more similar than different. Were this not true, there would be no point studying anatomy, physiology, endocrinology and human kinetics.
> 
> ...



This is one of the best responses I've ever read on a forum regardless of subject matter.

Excellent thread folks. Keep it up!


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## juggernaut (Jan 10, 2011)

Well put MA. I'd rep you, but the cans got in the way.


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## sassy69 (Jan 10, 2011)

awhites1 said:


>



lmao!


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## PreMier (Jan 11, 2011)

Emma, were you a member on this board previously?

I like reading all the info in this thread, and I've read some peer reviewed articles on the 3 meals a day being better for fat loss. Personally I don't respond well to this, I usually end up over eating. I suppose if I could track macros it'd be better. I always responded well on CKD(but 5-6 meals), high protein and fat, with carb refeeds.


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## Built (Jan 11, 2011)

Premier, I'm unconvinced 3 or 6 is better or worse for fat loss. I CAN tell you that for people with impaired metabolic control (read: the obese; type II diabetics; former-fatties) eating three larger meals makes it easier to eat at or below maintenance. I was fat, and borderline diabetic so this is indeed germane to my own condition. If you have never been fat and have reasonably high maintenance calories (in other words, each of your meals is still of a substantial size), you may well find eating more frequently works better for you.


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## PreMier (Jan 11, 2011)

Well honestly eating CKD and 5+ meals I was always starving. But I could deal with it.. By chewing packs of gum daily ha!

If satiety is a big deal then I know you know more than myself. Didn't you have some good soup recipes that were[satiating]? maybe post links


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## Built (Jan 11, 2011)

Soup before a meal is definitely a boost to satiety, particularly if it is puréed, has soluble fibre, protein, and an acidulating agent such as vinegar or yogurt.


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## juggernaut (Jan 12, 2011)

When I did the PSMF the best thing I could do was to take broccoli, spinach and cooked chicken breast, mix in a blender with some chicken broth and seriously fill my starving fat ass. It worked and it made the PSMF a serious working success.


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## emma2train (Jan 13, 2011)

Wow Juggernaut, that is some serious devotion. Is that pretty much all you ate? I actually like plain food, but have serious texture issues. I don't know if i could have done the blended dinner for any length of time. You have my greatest respect. 
Ok, completely off the topic but I saw somewhere the other day that coffee drinkers are much less likely to develop Parkinsons.


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