# Internal vs. External Rotation



## CowPimp (Nov 17, 2005)

I have trouble understanding what determines whether your shoulders are internally or externally rotated.  I understand the shoulder articulations of internal and external rotation.  However, determining which way you shoulder is rotated during a movement like pullups, for example, is confusing to me.  

Anyone care to shed some light?


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## P-funk (Nov 18, 2005)

When your shoulder externally rotates the humerus will turn the elbow towards your body ,making the hand supinate and the thumb point away from you.

when your shoulder internally rotates the opposeit happens.  The humerus turns the elbow so that it is facing out to the side, the thumb points inward towards you and your hand is pronating.


Is that what you mean?


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## bob1984 (Nov 18, 2005)

this generic type of movement is predetermined by the state of contraction of the latissmus dorsi, this movement may also be stabilised by the trapesius.  You may be subconciously allowing the latissmus dorsi to relax and this causes the shoulder to rotate outwards, this may result in a subluxation of the shoulder whilst doing pullups. Maintain the state of contraction in the muscle and the shoulder will passively turn inwards.  Watch out for those muscle haematomas


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## CowPimp (Nov 18, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> When your shoulder externally rotates the humerus will turn the elbow towards your body ,making the hand supinate and the thumb point away from you.
> 
> when your shoulder internally rotates the opposeit happens.  The humerus turns the elbow so that it is facing out to the side, the thumb points inward towards you and your hand is pronating.
> 
> ...




Exactly.  Thanks for the explanation.


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## Dale Mabry (Nov 18, 2005)

I don't believe there should be any transverse plane rotation of the shoulder while doing a pull-up, should there?  Isn't it just adduction in the frontal plane?


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## P-funk (Nov 18, 2005)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> I don't believe there should be any transverse plane rotation of the shoulder while doing a pull-up, should there?  Isn't it just adduction in the frontal plane?




well, when you are doing a pull up with a supinated grip you are extenrally rotated already and when doing them with a pronated grip you internally rotated.  But when doing pull ups with an overhand (pronated grip) i don't think the shoulder internally rotates anymore.  However, when doing them with an underhand (supinated) grip you will externally rotate slighty at the end ROM I would think, just like you internally rotate at the end ROM of a bench press.


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## CowPimp (Nov 18, 2005)

Dale Mabry said:
			
		

> I don't believe there should be any transverse plane rotation of the shoulder while doing a pull-up, should there?  Isn't it just adduction in the frontal plane?



There is still an orientation of internal or external, regardless of whether or not there is an isotonic internal/external rotation contraction involved.  Or so I thought...


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## P-funk (Nov 18, 2005)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> There is still an orientation of internal or external, regardless of whether or not there is an isotonic internal/external rotation contraction involved.  Or so I thought...




yea, that is what I thought too.


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## Dale Mabry (Nov 18, 2005)

Oh, ok, I thought you meant movements, not putting the shoulder in internal/external rotation for the movement.

I think there is internal rotation with a supinated grip, so as to allow yur elbows to go around your lats.


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## Tough Old Man (Nov 18, 2005)

Ok i give up. I lift weights so someone tell me why this stuff above is of importance to the the bodybuilder. I thought all this was difficult enough between lifting and diet and now I may have to go back to school because of shoulder rotation.

I wonder if over analyzing everything is as bad or worst then overtraining


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## P-funk (Nov 18, 2005)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> Ok i give up. I lift weights so someone tell me why this stuff above is of importance to the the bodybuilder. I thought all this was difficult enough between lifting and diet and now I may have to go back to school because of shoulder rotation




maybe if you understood it a little more you wouldn't have torn your rotator cuff muscles.


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## Tough Old Man (Nov 18, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> maybe if you understood it a little more you wouldn't have torn your rotator cuff muscles.


Funny thing. I knew if i threw out that shitty question that you Mr. Patrick was going to hit me upside the head with some type of logic. Your right maybe i wouldn't have torn the cuff from military Presses if I had more knowledge of shoulder rotations.. 

Now all I need to know was I doing them wrong or did I just go to heavy to quick for an older guy. Never had these problems 30 years ago. 

Lets see. Since returning to weightlifting after a 20 year layoff, I have torn 1) a double tendon in my left elbow. 2) A left pec muscle. 3) A glute muscle and last 4) a rotator cuff. 

I'm not sure that know the different rotations of joints would have prevented all these, but can tell you if i would have went about it easier the first 6 months back, I probably wouldn't have any of the above problems. 

So I disagree with your statement back to me. I think it was age and going up in weight to fast. See i use to be one really stong mother fucker, about as strong as anyone walking back in the 70's. My lift within a month or so back started getting freaky again real quick and I just kept going instead of taking it easy.


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## P-funk (Nov 18, 2005)

no, I agree.  I just through it out there.

You have had a lot of injuries and like you said, you tried to progress to quickly instead of building it up.  Maybe if you understood a little more about designing a program you would be better off since it would keep you from overworking/over using certain muscles and teach you to build things up at a more resonable pace.

Who knows?

Having injuries sucks and coming back after them sucks even more.  that is all I know for sure.


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## Tough Old Man (Nov 18, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> no, I agree. I just through it out there.
> 
> You have had a lot of injuries and like you said, you tried to progress to quickly instead of building it up. Maybe if you understood a little more about designing a program you would be better off since it would keep you from overworking/over using certain muscles and teach you to build things up at a more resonable pace.
> 
> ...


Now I agree with everything you said. When i decided to get back into this june of 2004, I had no idea where to start. You know i lift at home in Mexico where I see no bodybuilders. Had no one to help and sometimes i put to much weight on with no spotters. Then had to struggle to get the lift up. I think that's where i wentr wrong. 
Now I still do the same thing but now I know where my weakness lies. But I sure the hell didn't last year. 

Just one more hugh mistake. Since I did gear for 7 straight years, I thought after 3 months back I could do it again. This is when all the injuries should up. The first 6 months was a motherfucker for me. Now luckly I haven't had an injury this year. But the old one's are still around as I didn't take time off for them to heal. just worked through it. So i know what pain is when training. 

Thanks Patrick


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## P-funk (Nov 18, 2005)

I agree.  Injuries can happen anytime doing anything...lifting light weights, lifting heavy weights or getting out of the shower.  I do believe that a lot of injuries can be avoided with proper programing, balanced training and prehab and flexability work.  I feel like the injuries I have sustained over the years could have been avoided if I had done things differently....AND I KNEW BETTER!!  But, it is easy to fall into bad habits sometimes.


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## Tough Old Man (Nov 18, 2005)

P-funk said:
			
		

> I agree. Injuries can happen anytime doing anything...lifting light weights, lifting heavy weights or getting out of the shower. I do believe that a lot of injuries can be avoided with proper programing, balanced training and prehab and flexability work. I feel like the injuries I have sustained over the years could have been avoided if I had done things differently....AND I KNEW BETTER!! But, it is easy to fall into bad habits sometimes.


Agree and as we get into my years you really have to be careful. My doctors still don't understand how I continue to lift with the injuries. Hell two of them that wanted to do surgery. The elbow and the cuff and I past on both. I think one if the worst ones was the pec. That even made breathing hurt like a mofo


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## slider (Nov 18, 2005)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> Agree and as we get into my years you really have to be careful. My doctors still don't understand how I continue to lift with the injuries. Hell two of them that wanted to do surgery. The elbow and the cuff and I past on both. I think one if the worst ones was the pec. That even made breathing hurt like a mofo


surgery is crap don't go for it is to trendy. Remember when every one got there tonsils and apenidix yanked out cuz doctorst didn't understand what they did. Now we realize there are small longterm disadvatages to not having these organs. I wieghted my whole life to get my wisdom teeth cuz of a gap in the front of my smile I had room in my mouth for the teeth and needed them. They came in the gap went away I switched dentist around 18 the first visit with the man(new dentist) looked in my mouth and said "those wisdom teeth need cut out" .....I said "pulled out" playing along..... Then he said "nope, I think we are gonna have to use surgery and cut them out" Lying asshole was trying to pad his pockets with a surgery trend!!!! back in the day(you might know about this) How they would deal with torn ACL was snip it completly made every thing better right????? WRONG!!!!! we now have a generation of older Ex-athletes that can barely walk now cuz for 30 years there distill hamstring ligaments kept there knee joint from sheering and the ligament is overworked because it isn't desighned for that work load. WHY? cuz doctors were and are surgery happy when they don't know the long term affects. Yeah they tell us in school that after shoulder reconstruction with proper rehabilitation full mobility can be regained but I don't know anyone who ever got there full range back. The moral of story don't go under the knife unless it is life threatning.  LET OTHER PEOPLE PAY FOR THERE BENTLY'S.  I worked at clothing store a year or 2 and constantly told girls they looked good in jeans that didn't fit cuz they were more pricey and i was on commision just like doctors.


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## CowPimp (Nov 18, 2005)

Hey Toughy, I'm just a curious fellow.  I plan on being a personal trainer, and I would like to eventually be a teacher in some field related to exercise science or possibly work with atheletes.  I need to know these kinds of things.  Sadly, I like to learn.

-Insert geek joke here-


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## patricio223 (Nov 20, 2005)

From working at a PT office and dealing with people who tear their RC and stuff.. I know that when you are doing IR from a pulley, you want to set it up pretty high just below shoulder height and pull down and in. For ER you set it about waist height and pull up and out w/o bringing your forearm too close to your body.


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## slider (Nov 22, 2005)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Hey Toughy, I'm just a curious fellow. I plan on being a personal trainer, and I would like to eventually be a teacher in some field related to exercise science or possibly work with atheletes. I need to know these kinds of things. Sadly, I like to learn.
> 
> -Insert geek joke here-


What are you now????? are you even licensened?  I know I asked you befor and you dodged it are you even in the field of ss, at, or pt are you even around athletes at all?  you just seem to regergitate stuff from text books.


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## CowPimp (Nov 22, 2005)

slider said:
			
		

> What are you now????? are you even licensened?  I know I asked you befor and you dodged it are you even in the field of ss, at, or pt are you even around athletes at all?  you just seem to regergitate stuff from text books.



I never dodged the question.  I said the following:




> My job is not related to exercise science, but I am studying it in school and do so on my free time. I also know the basic principles of classical physics.



The physics comment was because we were debating about the biomechanics of a certain lift.

You could've been less condescending in your question.  Yes, much of the information I "regurgitate" comes from books and articles.  What's wrong with that?  Very few people actually have the opportunity to study things firsthand in a lab.  Where else am I supposed to learn the information from?


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