# Cutting sucks!



## rockhardly (May 28, 2010)

I am not eating nearly as much as I was when I was bulking. When I first started my cut everything was fine; bf dropping, pounding weights, and still making gains. Well, now I hardly have the energy to get a good workout in and after doing, for example, squats and bench, or deads and cleans. I just don't have the energy/motivation to continue thru the rest of the workout. I am affraid that I will start losing muscle because the # of sets have decreased w/ weight staying the same and I am not doing nearly as many excercises as I was a few weeks ago. Part of the lack of motivation is lack of energy and the other is knowing that all the brutality will not make me any better. Another thing that is pissing me off is that when I started my cut at the begining of April I was 205# and now 2 months later I am 195#. I have been at 195 for about 3 weeks straight. I am getting to the point where eating less than I think I should be but my bf refuses to drop. I figure I need to lose about 5-8#'s of fat to be cut like I wanna be. I dont want to spend all summer cutting to get where I want to be just in time to start bulking again. This sucks.

Basically, I am trying to keep protein around 1-1.5g/lbm, fats at 0.5g/lbm, and carbs as low as possible.  My cals when I was bulking were around 3500 and when I started the cut they went to around 2200 and now they are around 2000.  I love milk and its hard to stay away from.  I guess I am looking for a bit of help.


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## sassy69 (May 28, 2010)

You're asking your body to make a dramatic change in the way it is currently responding to the environment you give it to operate in. 

No pain, no gain 

That said, it sounds like you're stalling out. Its harder to drop the last 5 lb to get really sharp like I assume you're envisioning.  Its one thing to drop your carbs way low, but its hard to stay low w/o a scheduled refeed, unless you are planning to leverage ketosis. 

Usually a tweak to what you're doing will get things moving again. And best place to start w/ is diet. Can you post up your current meal plan (e.g. portion sizes, what you're eating at each seating), and also state if you've been following this or something similar for how long (getting at how long have you been going at what level of "low carb").


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## rockhardly (Jun 2, 2010)

I am not necessarily running a strict low carb diet.  I am just trying to consume as few as possible. For example, yesterday I ate:

8oz chicken breast
6oz of dark chicken
4.5oz of steak
4 cups of milk
1 cup of pinto beans
2 tblsp of ranch
2 tblsp of nat. more pb

Macro's: 193g protein + 99g carbs + 85g fat = 1900cals

I usually eat a cup of cottage cheese and a can of tuna during the week as well.  On the weekend I eat 5 eggs and a couple of pieces of toast, 2 cups of milk, and sometimes bacon and sausage.

I try to keep the proteins at around 1.5g/lbm but never below 1.  Fats are usually fine and if they run low I'll add a shot of olive oil in.  Carbs are mainly from milk which I love and it takes ALOT of effort not to drink the hell out of it. 

I checked the scale the other day and it said I was down to about 192.  I figure I am about 10%bf as I can see my abdominal definition.

And like you suggested, I want to look sharp.  I have some access fat around my lower mid section (love handles), some between the tri/delt interface, between chest and lats, etc.  It seems to be more concentrated between muscle groups than over the muscle, however, there is some there to.  I hope that makes sense.


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## rockhardly (Jun 4, 2010)

ttt


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## juggernaut (Jun 4, 2010)

Check out Built's article Daredevils are Shredded as well http://builtblog.wikidbody.com/2007/08/17/superiority-complexes/.


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## juggernaut (Jun 4, 2010)

Also, Sassy is right; try using a calorie tracker (fitday or fatsecret) because I think I see the problem. Your diet is all over the place.


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## rockhardly (Jun 4, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> Also, Sassy is right; try using a calorie tracker (fitday or fatsecret) because I think I see the problem. Your diet is all over the place.



I definately agree that my diet is not always the same.  But how do you mean?  I try to keep my macros as previously stated.  The one that fluctuates the most are the carbs.  Sometimes in the teens and sometimes around a 100.  Is this a bad thing.  Excuse my lack of knowledge in this area.  This is my first deliberate cut.


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## juggernaut (Jun 4, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> I definately agree that my diet is not always the same.  But how do you mean?  I try to keep my macros as previously stated.  The one that fluctuates the most are the carbs.  Sometimes in the teens and sometimes around a 100.  Is this a bad thing.  Excuse my lack of knowledge in this area.  This is my first deliberate cut.



Not at all. All part of the learning process. Are you carb cycling purposely or does it just "happen" that way.


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## rockhardly (Jun 4, 2010)

I dont necessarily cycle carbs.  I understand them to be the body's primary source of energy as they are the simplest form.  As such, I figure if I keep them down, my body should use up stored energy, bf, as its mean of energy.  Given that I am in a deficit, of course. 

On my previous post about what I eat on weekends, I meant that is what I eat for breakfast and eat chicken, tuna, red meat, etc throughout the rest of the day (just to clear that up).


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## sassy69 (Jun 4, 2010)

Initially you didn't state what you were eating so I was just noting that many people "go low carb" and then stay low carb because they "fear carbs".  Your body runs the most efficiently when it has a sufficient and continuous (or at least it perceives sufficent and continuous) supply of energy source - be it carbs or ketones.  Many people go low carb and then never refeed. That just means the body eventually perceives a drought environment where it doesn't have enough fuel source and it just slows down metabolism to preserve the energy sources it does have. This could be one case that would cause you to be tired all the time.

But now that you are posting a sample meal plan - dude, I'm a 5'7" girl and I cut for competition at 1700-1800. You're just barely over that at 195 lb. IMO you're not eating enough, and your food choices dont' seem optimal. I think you'd get better results from something like a carb rotation and carb sources other than milk and more vegetables.

Its hard to say but my general opinion is that you're not eating enough and you're not getting the best sources. I don't know your body type - I put on muscle and fat easily but have to fight w/ carb manipulation (and staying on the lower side w/ carbs in general) and shitloads of cardio. But I cut to 6-7% doing it so I know it works for me. If you're eating the same sort of stuff all the time I think you need to switch it up so your carbs aren't stalling you out (i.e. too low for too long) and you get a regular boost to keep you moving forward.  If your diet is all over the place, the body has a hard time responding in a more predictable manner because it never really gets a chance to set u an optimal burn rate.


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## rockhardly (Jun 4, 2010)

I have been thinking that myself (not eating enough).  I think I may have been getting impatient.  I think I want to go ahead and go back to my bulk style diet, but around 2500 cals and not worry about carbs.

I do have to say that I have not been that strict with my diet.  Yesterdy I ate 2800 cals, so I really am all over the place.  Putting this up here has helped me realize that.

Would ya'll say that consuming carbs will hinder fat loss if the other macros are in check or just go with the "cals in vs cals out" approach?

I should have started figuring this crap out during my bulk!!!!!


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## juggernaut (Jun 4, 2010)

Why not try a structured plan like UD2 (depending on how low your fat level is) and kickstart it with PSMF? I'd be happy to help you start either one. But it does require calorie/macro management.


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## Marat (Jun 5, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> Why not try a structured plan



I agree with that. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with dicking around with your own trial and error. However, keep in mind that there are plenty of effective modalities already available. There isn't much of a need to 'figure things out' if you don't want to. 

PSMF followed by UD2 is certainly a viable option.


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## Built (Jun 5, 2010)

Agreed on the PSMF/UD2.0 combo as an option; another might be to take a two-week diet break at or just slightly over maintenance, heavy on the carbs, and then get to either the PSMF/UD combo as mentioned, or go into a carb-cycling paradigm; something as simple as "under a hundred" and "over a hundred" with the higher carb days coinciding with your lifting days might be more in line with what you need now that you're leaner. Dunno about everyone, but I found my carb tolerance went up the leaner I became.


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## WeightGainNet (Jun 5, 2010)

Hey man I was in your exact same shoes before. Here's what I did:

Cycle your calories. Take 1 day a week to "refeed" and overeat. If you're on a 2,000 calorie diet now, shoot back up to 3,500. And eat anything you want for that day. Junk food, man.

This will reset your hormones, turn back on your fat-burning hormones, refill your glycogen stores, and give you energy again so your body doesn't detect taht you're in a famine state anymore. Do this on a workout day when you need the energy. Like leg day.

The next day drop back down to your regular 2000 calories and do Interval cardio training first thing in the morning to burn out your glycogen stores and start cutting into your bodyfat again.

Do interval cardio 3 days a week or more. Stay away from long moderate cardio. Your body will get used to this pretty easily.

Rinse and repeat every week.





rockhardly said:


> I am not eating nearly as much as I was when I was bulking. When I first started my cut everything was fine; bf dropping, pounding weights, and still making gains. Well, now I hardly have the energy to get a good workout in and after doing, for example, squats and bench, or deads and cleans. I just don't have the energy/motivation to continue thru the rest of the workout. I am affraid that I will start losing muscle because the # of sets have decreased w/ weight staying the same and I am not doing nearly as many excercises as I was a few weeks ago. Part of the lack of motivation is lack of energy and the other is knowing that all the brutality will not make me any better. Another thing that is pissing me off is that when I started my cut at the begining of April I was 205# and now 2 months later I am 195#. I have been at 195 for about 3 weeks straight. I am getting to the point where eating less than I think I should be but my bf refuses to drop. I figure I need to lose about 5-8#'s of fat to be cut like I wanna be. I dont want to spend all summer cutting to get where I want to be just in time to start bulking again. This sucks.
> 
> Basically, I am trying to keep protein around 1-1.5g/lbm, fats at 0.5g/lbm, and carbs as low as possible.  My cals when I was bulking were around 3500 and when I started the cut they went to around 2200 and now they are around 2000.  I love milk and its hard to stay away from.  I guess I am looking for a bit of help.


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## rockhardly (Jun 7, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> Why not try a structured plan like UD2 (depending on how low your fat level is) and kickstart it with PSMF? I'd be happy to help you start either one. But it does require calorie/macro management.



As several of you seem to support this idea, I would like to see how to structure it.  I have heard alot about UD2 and PSMF but don't have the slightest idea on how to approach setting it up, so your help is deffinately warranted!


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## juggernaut (Jun 7, 2010)

check your inbox


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## p nuts (Jun 9, 2010)

i stalled on my cut at 155lb. after dropping 25 lbs. i jumped right into ud2 for 5 weeks.( i was ok for 4 weeks, but that 5th week was killer, jumped ship early). at end of that i was still at 155lb. but put on mass with seemingly no fat gain. i took two week break completely off diet, tried to stay at maintenance.( helped big time psychologically) weight went up to 160lb. assuming mostly water weight gain. decided to jumpstart another ud2 cycle this time with psmf. dropped down to 150lb. after first week. ended psmf with ud2 style refeed with glycogen depletion aand power workout. before restarting ud2, my weight went back up to 157lb. but i am leaner and put on more mass than before first ud2 setup. 

after doing psmf diet. ud2 diet is alot easier to tolerate. and taking breaks once in awhile from ur diet sets ur mind more readily and willingly to go through another cutting phase...just my experience.


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## Tyler3295 (Jun 9, 2010)

You started CUTTING at 155lbs?


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## p nuts (Jun 9, 2010)

Tyler3295 said:


> You started CUTTING at 155lbs?



i started at around 185 lb.


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## Tyler3295 (Jun 9, 2010)

p nuts said:


> i started at around 185 lb.



How tall are you? Why was only 185 lbs too much for you? You're short?


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## p nuts (Jun 10, 2010)

Tyler3295 said:


> How tall are you? Why was only 185 lbs too much for you? You're short?



i'm 5'4". at 185 i was big, around 15% or higher bf. always trained for size since started a weight program, which i started at 155 lb. six years ago. i never went through a cut until recently. my goals changed to being lean and defined, which im almost where i want to be. ultimately, being on this forum, skooled me on the proper way of training and setting goals, otherwise id be like so many otherwise, with no set goal but to lift weights and exercise, and wonder why theres no gains.


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## rockhardly (Jun 10, 2010)

p nuts said:


> i'm 5'4". at 185 i was big, around 15% or higher bf. always trained for size since started a weight program, which i started at 155 lb. six years ago. i never went through a cut until recently. my goals changed to being lean and defined, which im almost where i want to be. ultimately, being on this forum, skooled me on the proper way of training and setting goals, otherwise id be like so many otherwise, with no set goal but to lift weights and exercise, and wonder why theres no gains.



Are you sure you got your shit together?  You started at 155# 6 years ago and are now cutting and are at around 155#, and still cutting.  I don't see how you could have made any gains.  And at 185# w/ 15% bf, you would be 0% bf at 155#, assuming you lost no muscle.


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## p nuts (Jun 10, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> Are you sure you got your shit together?  You started at 155# 6 years ago and are now cutting and are at around 155#, and still cutting.  I don't see how you could have made any gains.  And at 185# w/ 15% bf, you would be 0% bf at 155#, assuming you lost no muscle.



my natural weight is around 155lb. with maybe 15% bf. at beginning of my cut. i got up to 185 lbs. and about 15% or higher.( meaning i put on more muscle mass than fat during that period.) i dropped back down to 155 lbs. but now with much more muscle mass than when i started lifting. giving me lower bf % at the same weight as before.
maybe my numbers are wrong, but what i'm expressing is that i'm leaner and more muscular now at my weight than when i first began training. dont compare weight loss with fat loss. i could care less of how much i weigh, my goal to get my ten pack ready for the summer. like i posted before, during my trial with ud2. i maintained weight but i looked leaner and bigger at the end of it. i dropped body fat, but not weight.


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## juggernaut (Jun 17, 2010)

I checked your emails and this thread. I think you need to get a bodyfat assessment done by a good trainer at your gym. Let him do the calipers and ask him to do it three times, then average up the numbers. Get that number and your current weight. We can work from there with the goals that you need to have definitively planned out.


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## rockhardly (Jun 17, 2010)

juggernaut said:


> I checked your emails and this thread. I think you need to get a bodyfat assessment done by a good trainer at your gym. Let him do the calipers and ask him to do it three times, then average up the numbers. Get that number and your current weight. We can work from there with the goals that you need to have definitively planned out.



I have a home gym.  Is there a way I can do the bf estimation on my own that would suffice for what you need?


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## juggernaut (Jun 17, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> I have a home gym.  Is there a way I can do the bf estimation on my own that would suffice for what you need?



Amazon.com: FatTrack GOLD Digital Body Fat Caliper with FREE MyoTape: Health & Personal Care

Buy one of these-both the tape and the calipers. Theyre great, especially for home use. Read the directions carefully.


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## unclem (Jun 23, 2010)

is 242lbs at 10% bf ok? 6'1? anybody. thnx dont mean to hog the thread. imo


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## sassy69 (Jun 23, 2010)

unclem said:


> is 242lbs at 10% bf ok? 6'1? anybody. thnx dont mean to hog the thread. imo



Fatty.

LOL j/k - I think more importantly, is it what you want to maintain or find that this is where your lifestyle leads your body to establish as a set point? Or is this a point you're just passing thru to something leaner?

I think if you're not trying to build more or on your way to another goal, more people find it easier to live life at a lighter weight than a heavier weight - its like being a little sleeker and more streamlined. It might be that you'd need to condition your body to operate and easily maintain, say 8%, but its more what YOU and YOUR BODY are comfortable with.   Just visualizing at 6'1" and 242, that's decently beefy!


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## rockhardly (Jul 15, 2010)

Still hovering at 190#.  What would a psmf diet look like assuming I am 10%bf?  Also, while on this type of diet, what would the workouts be like?


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## Built (Jul 15, 2010)

190 and 10% means you carry 170 lbs of lean and you're a category I - so between 260g amd 340g protein, under 50g carb, minimal fat. 

Two short full body workouts a week (use the one in my homework 1 post, linked in my sig under "getting started"). Up to an hour of walking or other modest cardio daily. 

12 days of this, then a two-day carb refeed. 

Day 1: low fat, modest protein, carb between 700 and 1000g
Day 2: low fat, modest protein, carb between 350 and 500g

1g potassium
1g calcium
500mg magnesium 
10g fish oil
Multi
1g vitamin C


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## unclem (Jul 16, 2010)

sassy69 said:


> Fatty.
> 
> LOL j/k - I think more importantly, is it what you want to maintain or find that this is where your lifestyle leads your body to establish as a set point? Or is this a point you're just passing thru to something leaner?
> 
> I think if you're not trying to build more or on your way to another goal, more people find it easier to live life at a lighter weight than a heavier weight - its like being a little sleeker and more streamlined. It might be that you'd need to condition your body to operate and easily maintain, say 8%, but its more what YOU and YOUR BODY are comfortable with. Just visualizing at 6'1" and 242, that's decently beefy!


 
 aahhh now that hurts, fatty, no jk, iam not there yet sassy but my bodyweight is down from 270 to 250 with 10- 15 lbs water weight.  iam on bulk now so iam at 13-14 bf% i want to get to 242 at about 6% bf for my competition. my trainer says its possible but i cant imagine that even being possible but i just put out there 10% bf to see the reaction. do you think its possible, skinny, no your muscular. thnx


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## rockhardly (Jul 16, 2010)

Also, should any protein come from a supplement like whey?


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## Built (Jul 16, 2010)

Whey is fine. You may feel "fuller" on solid food, but whey is fine.


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## Phineas (Jul 16, 2010)

Built said:


> 190 and 10% means you carry 170 lbs of lean and you're a category I - so between 260g amd 340g protein, under 50g carb, minimal fat.
> 
> Two short full body workouts a week (use the one in my homework 1 post, linked in my sig under "getting started"). Up to an hour of walking or other modest cardio daily.
> 
> ...




What kind of deficit would you run on this for 12 days? That's a long time to go without refeed, isn't it?

And god damnit! I can't imagine eating 1000g carbs in one day. Wow.


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## Built (Jul 16, 2010)

What kind of deficit depends upon the individual's maintenance calories. Read Lyle's RFL, it's all in there.


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## rockhardly (Jul 16, 2010)

After the first refeed, would you repeat if you still have fat you wanna lose?  

And, yah, 1000g of carbs is alot.  What kinda things are recommended here?


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## rockhardly (Jul 16, 2010)

Never mind.  I picked it up from your response to Phineas' thread "Sample 500-1000g Refeed"


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## rockhardly (Jul 22, 2010)

I started PSMF on Monday July 19.  My first day was not that great.  My wife made lasagna and I could not resist.  Anyways, below is what I have done so far.

My workouts have been pretty good, especially considering the deficit.  Fullbody on Monday, sprints on Tuesday, and Fullbody on Wednesday.


July 19    190# 
cals: 1,490  fat: 51.1 carbs: 87.7 protein: 163.0 

July 20
cals: 1,702 fat: 73.4 carbs: 20.6 protein: 226.6 

July 21    188#
cals: 1,606 fat: 76.5 carbs: 5.9 protein: 210.9 

I am having trouble getting more potein than what I have listed so I am going to start using whey as a substitute.

Any thoughts, Built?


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## Built (Jul 22, 2010)

Whey is fine. You can also try shredding a poached chicken breast into consomme with veggies and soy sauce. Voila - soup!


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## premo (Jul 22, 2010)

something else that is way underestimated but important to mention is hydration imo.. i always feel slugish and weak when i de hydrated


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## rockhardly (Jul 22, 2010)

What do you think about the macros listed?


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## Built (Jul 22, 2010)

July 21 looked fine.


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## SUPERFLY1234 (Jul 24, 2010)

rockhardly said:


> Still hovering at 190#.  What would a psmf diet look like assuming I am 10%bf?  Also, while on this type of diet, what would the workouts be like?



You are going be very tired, Works out will be flat!


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