# 6 week insulin run



## theCaptn' (Jan 13, 2013)

Thinking of adding this to the end of my blast. 

Comments and suggestions from experienced users please.

Dickheads and n00bs will be negged


----------



## AlphaMaleDawg (Jan 13, 2013)

What exactly is your question?


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 13, 2013)

Ahh... length of run considered effective? Recommended dosages? Stats: 250lbs, about 17% bf give or take. Was aiming for 10-15lbs of gains. Thanks.


----------



## D-Lats (Jan 13, 2013)

Have you run slin before? It's awesome but I'd recommend going over basskillers protocol and understand it to a t. Which insulin were you looking to use? I love me some slin, nothing makes me feel fuller and stronger. Your diet and nutrient intake become crucial once the pin goes in.


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 13, 2013)

I'm a Virgin D. Understand the risks, my trainer is an experienced user but I always like 2nd opinions. Was looking at the fast-acting slin (humalog?) for post WO.

Are goals and run length realistic?


----------



## D-Lats (Jan 13, 2013)

10-15 lbs is attainable on a 6 week run for sure. It might be some fat, people react different on slin. I know guys that take it and stay vascular and lean I personally blow up like a balloon and gain fat. I'd recommend humalog for the first few times because you can use a stop watch and have a very good idea how long it's active. The longer acting insulins can be scary IMO.


----------



## dieseljimmy (Jan 13, 2013)

I take slin a little different. I like "r" type insulin. I take it preworkout. Then I take a carb/ preworkout NO shake. While I'm lifting I drink carb(maltodextrin) with creatine and bcaa.
i take 5 iu in the am. 15 iu preworkout. If I don't work out I take another 5 iu in the afternoon. 
I usually take it for 6 weeks at a time. I expect a 3 pound muscle gain. 3 pound fat gain and 3 pound water gain.  A little clen when your done and the water and fat disappears.


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 13, 2013)

Ill have to check my notes, but the idea was 10iu post workout, followed by 100g dextrose, creatine, protein etc. I think this is a safe protocol for a n00by.

Expecting some fat gains, but that's what cuttings for


----------



## Standard Donkey (Jan 13, 2013)

im not sure but i've always read that 4 weeks per run is best



also, the fatter you are, the fatter you'll get. Makes since, but idk if it's true or not


----------



## Ebbe (Jan 13, 2013)

Dont forget to take sugar


----------



## SloppyJ (Jan 13, 2013)

I want to follow along here. I'm interested but kinda put off by the risks. Hope it goes well. Can you run a log? That'd be excellent.


----------



## hypo_glycemic (Jan 13, 2013)

Ebbe said:


> Dont forget to take sugar



^^ this..  Have some simple sugar on hand after pinning. I know a ton of competitors that use it, but some will never touch it again due to being VERY dangerous. I'd think this through thoroughly.


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 13, 2013)

hypo_glycemic said:


> ^^ this..  Have some simple sugar on hand after pinning. I know a ton of competitors that use it, but some will never touch it again due to being VERY dangerous. I'd think this through thoroughly.



I'm not a competitor, so won't be looking to push any boundaries - I understand the risks. 

Happy to run a log. Probably kick off in a months time.


----------



## hypo_glycemic (Jan 13, 2013)

^ subbed in. Curious how you'll respond. Although not a competitor, 1 shot of slin can run a muck if a proper protocol isn't followed. Just be careful


----------



## D-Lats (Jan 13, 2013)

I've posted this before I think. I think it's a good read. I know you have a trainer captn but this might help other guys understand the reason for using slin.
Everything you wanted to know about insulin and bodybuilding


----------



## dieseljimmy (Jan 13, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> Ill have to check my notes, but the idea was 10iu post workout, followed by 100g dextrose, creatine, protein etc. I think this is a safe protocol for a n00by.
> 
> Expecting some fat gains, but that's what cuttings for



i take 25 g malto when I inject. 50g in the gym. 
The most insane pumps I have ever had was on insulin. Go out of your way to drink more water.
ramp your does up slowly. 
I did many cycles of insulin without any problems at all. Then one day at the grocery store( not even close to a shot) it hit me. I got so sweaty and confused. I staggered over to the dairy area an guzzled a 2 gallon jug of chocolate milk. Fucking split it everywhere. All over my shirt, I had to sit on the floor.  Manager came and check in on me. Pretty scary and embarrassing. My point is that when your on insulin your never out of the clear for a " insulin moment". It doesn't have to happen an hour after injecting. It can come 5 hours later.
I just keep some skittles on me at all time when I'm running insulin.
i also got a cheap meter just so I can identify what certain blood sugar levels feel like. I also bought an insulin bracklet right after my store incident. I took the badge of it and put it in my wallet, just in case.


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 13, 2013)

^^ that's some scary shit


----------



## dieseljimmy (Jan 13, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> ^^ that's some scary shit



The scary part is the confusion.  It's hard to explain. You realise something wrong, you just can't think right.  It almost reminds me kinda Like smoking salvia.


----------



## BigBlackGuy (Jan 13, 2013)

Preworkout is scary man... you could go hypo in the gym, especially because you are lifting.  I wouldn't do preworkout, it's too risky. For me, at least.  Imagine going hypo in the middle of lifting some heavy ass weight? Fuck that.


----------



## SloppyJ (Jan 14, 2013)

Dieseljimmy just confirmed my fears of slin. I'd hate for this to happen to me when I was with family or my fiance. That wouldn't go over too well.....

Good luck captn!


----------



## chips (Jan 16, 2013)

Yea that story rings tru with me. One day not long ago I was four plus hrs post shot and was at the store with my kid and it hit me..I tell you you could have rung out my shirt within five mins..I grabbed a bottle of glocose tabs off the pharmacy shelf and ate five in an instant. I stayed upright but was pretty close on that one!


----------



## babyhulkASF (Jan 16, 2013)

Good luck, and I'm with sloppy, I hope you post up a log, I'd be very interested in following it.


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 16, 2013)

chips said:


> Yea that story rings tru with me. One day not long ago I was four plus hrs post shot and was at the store with my kid and it hit me..I tell you you could have rung out my shirt within five mins..I grabbed a bottle of glocose tabs off the pharmacy shelf and ate five in an instant. I stayed upright but was pretty close on that one!



Yeah that's why I'm going to use the fast acting slin postWO.

First go toms - 5iu with 100g dex to see what my tolerance is like. Ill only pin WO days, so 4 days a week.

Will set up a log tonight


----------



## World-Pharma.org (Jan 17, 2013)

if you will take ti,be extra careful..
also follow diet extra good if you inject slim.
but since you are 17% bf...i do not suggest since with slim you can get more %BF...


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 17, 2013)

Slin should pack on extra lbm and bf - I'm prepared to accept the bf. I'm running a little tren and T3 so it should be minimized.


----------



## chips (Jan 17, 2013)

The thing about the fast type. Humalog etc.. Is that it doesn't allow enough time for the shuttling of carbs and proteins direct to the muscle... Or by that I mean " enough " time.. It's on and off so dang fast you can hardly keep up . I like to stay super anabolic for at least 4 hrs..my opinion only.. I have a buddy who is ALL about the fast stuff tho..


----------



## Coop817 (Jan 18, 2013)

Run Mike Arnold's protocol.  Very effective.


----------



## SloppyJ (Jan 18, 2013)

How did it go captn?


----------



## s2h (Jan 18, 2013)

Mike's protocal is pretty proven..only thing i would say is start low...start at 2-3 iu's pwo and work your way up..add a iu a day..and have a glucose meter with you and check it..and of course glucose tabs..checking your BS will give you all the info you need..just cause you dont fall flat on your face doesnt mean your not doing something wrong..


----------



## DOBE (Jan 18, 2013)

Been running slin cycles for a couple years now have done a few of the bass killer protocols. I've always used humulin r. Have done as little as 5iu and as much as 40iu. now days I do 5 to 10 iu with plenty of carbs before working out and have no trouble at all. 10 iu or less is pretty much idiot proof. with the higher doses it was too easy for me to get distracted and leave the dextrose or candy at home and then end up somewhere going hypo and jonesing for sugar


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 18, 2013)

SloppyJ said:


> How did it go captn?



No probs. 4iu, 10 min later 100g of dextrose. Shit kept me hungry most of the day with an energy low around lunch time.

I gotta take the kids to the gym today, so Ill go for 5iu on Monday.


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 18, 2013)

Meh hit 5ius when the kids were in the crèche after a good shoulders/bis workout.

Was about an hour until I got home for my next meal - white rice n chkn. Had some glucose tabs in the car as backup. So far no issues with 5ius


----------



## independent (Jan 18, 2013)

Still alive for today i see.


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 19, 2013)

Of course!

Ill be upping the dose 1iu post WO only, limiting to 10iu.

Next week:

Mon legs w. 6iu
Wed chest/tris 7iu
Fri back 8iu
Sat delts/bi 9iu

Gears - 500mg sus + 100mg tren ace mon-wed-fri, expecting some weight gains


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 21, 2013)

So I hit 6iu after legs but tried a different protocol suggested to me.

Same carbs, but instead of drinking it all 10min post inj drank half after 15 min, then the other half 30min post inj with a full meal an hour after that.

No issues to report, the only thing I notice is some intense hunger pangs during the day that tapers off.

7iu tommorrow with chest/tri training, will see if I've put on extra weight yet.


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 23, 2013)

I'm up 1kg! Tipping 113.5kg and got a bench PB yesterday.  Slin is definately helping me keep the cals up.

Will be pinning 8iu tommorrow after deadlifts.


----------



## XYZ (Jan 23, 2013)

Good luck.

Sounds like you're getting the hang of it.


----------



## SloppyJ (Jan 23, 2013)

Thanks for updating!


----------



## dieseljimmy (Jan 23, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> I'm up 1kg! Tipping 113.5kg and got a bench PB yesterday.  Slin is definately helping me keep the cals up.
> 
> Will be pinning 8iu tommorrow after deadlifts.



good stuff... 
Keep eating


----------



## AlphaMaleDawg (Jan 23, 2013)

I prefer humalog because it is far less confusing and easier to manage. I like to shoot it right before leaving my apt to go to the gym (takes me 10 minutes before I begin my first set) and then immediately begin sipping my intra workout carb/protein shake. If you use 10iu humalog, have 80g carbs with your shake. I think the 10g of carb per 1iu of slin is excessive and increases the possibility of fat intake. You won't die if you take 8g per 1iu.

The problem with slin is people give too much advice aimed at extreme caution, rather than results. Slin really isn't dangerous unless you inject a lot without eating, in which case you probably deserve something stupid to happen to you.


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 23, 2013)

^^^ sounds similar to mutants protocol using humalog rather than novalog.

Appreciate the advice.


----------



## XYZ (Jan 23, 2013)

Anything other than humalog has the chance to peak twice.  Humulin-r is the worst.


----------



## AlphaMaleDawg (Jan 23, 2013)

XYZ said:


> Anything other than humalog has the chance to peak twice.  Humulin-r is the worst.



Yea, some people like to recommend Humulin R for safety reasons. The problem is it's less safe when it comes to fat gains, because you need to really calculate the peaks properly in order to do it right. It requires too much guess work IMO. With Humalog, it's done and over with and you don't need to stress out about it.

At the end of the day, people use slin for RESULTS. The problem is the advice people give is to stay safe, which defeats the purpose of using it in the first place. If people gave more results-oriented advice, there is no reason someone won't be safe if following the advice.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Jan 23, 2013)

AlphaMaleDawg said:


> Yea, some people like to recommend Humulin R for safety reasons. The problem is it's less safe when it comes to fat gains, because you need to really calculate the peaks properly in order to do it right. It requires too much guess work IMO. With Humalog, it's done and over with and you don't need to stress out about it.
> 
> At the end of the day, people use slin for RESULTS. The problem is the advice people give is to stay safe, which defeats the purpose of using it in the first place. If people gave more results-oriented advice, there is no reason someone won't be safe if following the advice.





what would you consider "results-oriented" advice for someone wanting to use humalog post workout?


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 23, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> what would you consider "results-oriented" advice for someone wanting to use humalog post workout?



I'm expecting some fat gains until I dial in doses properly, but I'm well impressed with results so far. 

Hit PBs with incline bench on tue and again with deads this morning - eating like a horse.  No issues with 8ius.


----------



## AlphaMaleDawg (Jan 24, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> what would you consider "results-oriented" advice for someone wanting to use humalog post workout?



Just to not overdo the carbs really when injecting slin. It's not worth getting fat at the expense of being overly safe.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Jan 24, 2013)

AlphaMaleDawg said:


> Just to not overdo the carbs really when injecting slin. It's not worth getting fat at the expense of being overly safe.




makes sense... i might have to look into slin for myself down the road


----------



## XYZ (Jan 25, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> makes sense... i might have to look into slin for myself down the road




With all due respect, from your past posting history, you're the last guy who needs to use slin.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Jan 25, 2013)

XYZ said:


> With all due respect, from your past posting history, you're the last guy who needs to use slin.




care to elaborate?


----------



## XYZ (Jan 25, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> care to elaborate?



From what you post (who knows what you really do), your doses are out of control, the number of compounds you use at once is through the roof and you're not even 25 years old yet.  There is no way you have maxed out your natural potential with diet and training alone, you've already abused gear to the max and now you want to push the envelope with using insulin?  

As reckless and careless as you are (with your posts anyhow) you'll end up dead within the first week of insulin use.

You skipped so many steps in the bodybuilding process, your diet and cardio could easily be adjusted for further results but you instead add more gear.  At your age you'll be lucky if you don't have severe health conditions later on in life.  There is a big difference between use and abuse, you are an abuser.

I'm not going to go back and try and find posts where you claimed this or that, it is what it is and I've been here long enough and read enough of your posts to know.

Cruising on tren?


----------



## Standard Donkey (Jan 25, 2013)

XYZ said:


> From what you post (who knows what you really do), your doses are out of control, the number of compounds you use at once is through the roof and you're not even 25 years old yet.  There is no way you have maxed out your natural potential with diet and training alone, you've already abused gear to the max and now you want to push the envelope with using insulin?
> 
> As reckless and careless as you are (with your posts anyhow) you'll end up dead within the first week of insulin use.
> 
> ...





fair enough.. 

-as for diet and training.. ive hired shelby for the past 16 weeks, and also have him and john meadows for the next year (i have a 13 week transformation thread in open chat)

-and for doses... strictly hypothetical

-as for genetics, nothing bad runs in my family (on a gram of tren from mlg my bp is 115/70)


-no dairy, wheat, gluten, sugar, alcohol, fructose, anything "overly" processed in my diet (besides white rice i suppose)..


-diet is purely composed of chicken, VCO, beef liver, white rice, brewer's yeast (for B vitamins, e.g. folate, b6, and b12 to keep homocysteine down), and whey isolate 

supplement with: fish oil, primrose oil, vit E, coq10, curcumin, NAC, magnesium, vitd3, vit C, liv52... *every day
*

am going to start donating blood every 2 months (have been irresponsible here), as soon as my prep is over

also keeping my BF% down in the offseason to avoid the health issues that come with being overweight..

and for the record, no one ever provided evidence that cruising on 100mg tren E/week is a bad call... sooo.. 


and by "down the road", i meant 4+ years. If i cant run it without HGH/igf1, i dont want to run it at all (trying to avoid hgh, hear it can cause some bad stuff)


----------



## Standard Donkey (Jan 25, 2013)

but anyways, back to your thread Capt'n (sorry for the hijack)


----------



## XYZ (Jan 25, 2013)

There are no studies on tren because it's not made for human use.  That might be why nobody has been able to provide that information for you.

It's just my opinion, you can take it any way you want, I'm just calling it like it is, nothing more.

In regards to your "genetics" response, I'll bet your family memebrs haven't abused gear like you so that isn't a fair comparison.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Jan 25, 2013)

XYZ said:


> There are no studies on tren because it's not made for human use.  That might be why nobody has been able to provide that information for you.
> 
> It's just my opinion, you can take it any way you want, I'm just calling it like it is, nothing more.
> 
> *In regards to your "genetics" response, I'll bet your family memebrs haven't abused gear like you so that isn't a fair comparison*.





correct, but i left out the fact that my grandparents (both sides) abused cigarrettes and alchohol for many decades. my mom's dad had a massive heart attack at 85, after literally chain-smoking since 17.


he survived.

other grandpa had 2 strokes at 75 after smoking/drinking heavily, survived both


all of my family has a horrible diet.. bunch of lard people... no health problems.



not saying my genetics are great, just not horrible


----------



## pieguy (Jan 25, 2013)

It's always interesting browsing IM compared to other AAS boards cause it has to be one of the most conservative boards out there for dosing with the highest regard for longevity. I guess that's not a bad thing, but it also leaves a lot on the table.

Like for example, the dosages talked about for insulin on this board are probably 1/4 of what's recommended on other boards. I've seen protocols ranging from 30-45iu daily 3x a week with 3 dosages a day of humulin-R which is what a lot of gurus recommend, to protocols of just 10-20iu pre-workout. I also never hear about the little things that put things into perspective. Like the chance of becoming diabetic with "intelligent" insulin use is almost impossible (yes, insulin resistance creeps up on you) and that glutamine is extremely beneficial in keeping blood glucose levels stable preventing you from going hypo. I mean things like this are deal-breakers and it's strange nobody on here talks about them. I guess it's because this board takes the safe route in case somebody does stupid things without researching, which is admirable to say the least. 

In terms of humalog vs humulin, it seems like all opinion. Personally, having used humulin pre-workout, it's very easy to handle. You know the timings and as long as you have a proper meal before injection, sip on pre-workout/intra-workout shakes and then take the proper post-workout nutrition route (shake + meal 2 hours later), you're golden. Plus, it doesn't hit as hard as humalog, but yeah, fat gain is always a problem with longer lasting slin. Some like humalog cause of its convenience, pop 10-15iu and the stuff is rolling immediately instead of waiting for it to kick in. 

I'm not sure if there's more to SD's conflict with XYZ regarding tren cruising, but I can say that numerous people cruise on 100mg tren/100mg test per week and that there's a 10+ page thread out there discussing it's validity and how your blood test results will return to normal, even with low dose tren usage. It might not be as fast as if you cruised on 150mg test (TRT dose), but tren gives you benefits that test doesn't.


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 25, 2013)

Thanks for the input pieguy


----------



## Standard Donkey (Jan 25, 2013)

pieguy said:


> I'm not sure if there's more to SD's conflict with XYZ regarding tren cruising, but I can say that numerous people cruise on 100mg tren/100mg test per week and that there's a 10+ page thread out there discussing it's validity and how your blood test results will return to normal, even with low dose tren usage. It might not be as fast as if you cruised on 150mg test (TRT dose), but tren gives you benefits that test doesn't.




im not sure if there is either lol..

are you referring to Dr. G's thread? that's where i got the idea


----------



## Mike Arnold (Jan 26, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> Slin should pack on extra lbm and bf - I'm prepared to accept the bf. I'm running a little tren and T3 so it should be minimized.




You don't have to gain bodyfat while using it.  I have extensive experience with insulin on myself and many, many clients.  Below is my favorite insulin protocol.  All have experienced great results with it.  You will notice that many of the words below run together.  This is not my fault.  When I copy & pasted it from microsoft word, it happend on its own and I don't feel like correcting all of it.  You may also notice random question marks spread throughout the text.  Same thing going on there...so you will have to look past them.


*The Ultimate InsulinProtocol

**By:  Mike Arnold



*​Insulin...the peptide everyone wantsto know about, but which few are willing to include in their programs.  Inevitably, should one inquire how to usethis drug, the forthcoming responses almost always come in the way of wellmeaning admonitions encouraging the prospective user to abstain.  Insulin has become somewhat of a taboosubject in our community, even among those of us who willingly engage in andencourage the use of illegal AAS.  Atfirst glance, one can understand why this mind-set might rule the generalBB?ing population.  However, upon furtherinspection it is revealed that insulin, when administered by those who have athorough understanding of the drug and religiously adhere to all safetyguidelines, can be used both successfully and with relative safety.

      Still, it is not without some measure of truth that insulin comes withso many warnings.  In a worst casescenario, it can kill you if used improperly. It should also be noted that even when insulin is used responsibly, itcarries with it a certain degree of inherent risk.  Should the user find himself in an unfortunateset of circumstances, such as acquiring an abrupt case of the stomach flu leadingto an inability to hold down any food/liquid, the user could be in trouble,especially if he had just administered a large dosage of Insulin and an E.R cannotquickly be located.  This is just oneexample of how an individual could find himself in a predicament for which heis not responsible, but which none the less could result in an emergencysituation.
        The purpose of this article is not to educatethe reader on how to protect oneself from the potential dangers of Insulin, butto supply a wholistic and maximally effective method of insulin administration.  I assume that anyone who is willing toimplement this protocol into their BB?ing program is thoroughly educatedregarding its application and all available safety nets have been put inplace.  Furthermore, I am not suggestingor recommending anyone use this program. It is posted for entertainment purposes only.

      The internet is filled with different thoughts and ideas on how to bestuse insulin.  Some of these ideas areworthwhile, while others are complete garbage. In this article we will explore what many believe to be the single mosteffective time to use insulin?pre-workout. There is considerable scientific evidence which can be used to back upthis claim of superiority, as well as numerous anecdotal reports proclaiming likewise.  In the following protocol I have followedsuit in regards to timing, but have gone a step further and devised what Iconsider to be the single most effective insulin program on involving oncedaily use.
      Users of this protocol have reported average gains of 10 lbs in 2 weeksor less, which I can personally confirm. The pumps & muscle fullness one will achieve while following thisprotocol are staggering. The program finds its magic in its timing and thesynergy of ingredients utilized.   Listedbelow is the protocol in its entirety.

?        *45 minutespre-workout:  *15 IU Humulin R.
?        *20 minutes pre-workout:  *50 grams ?Branched chain cyclic dextrins?.  20 grams Hydrolyzed protein (ex: Carnivore).  20 grams Glycerol monostearate.  3 grams Leucine.  5 grams Micronized creatine monohydrate.  2 grams Beta alanine.  3 grams Taurine.  500 mg Potassium. 1 gram Vitamin C.       
?        *75 minutes after 1[SUP]st[/SUP]shake:  *50 grams ?Branched chaincyclic dextrins?.  20 grams Hydrolyzedprotein (ex: Carnivore).  3 gramsLeucine.  5 grams Micronizedcreatine.  2 grams Beta alanine.  3 grams Taurine.  
?        *75 minutes after 2[SUP]nd[/SUP]shake:  *50 grams ?Branched chaincyclic dextrins?.  20 grams Hydrolyzedprotein (ex: Carnivore).  3 gramsLeucine.  

*Total protein:  *60grams (excluding added free-form aminos)
* Total Carbs: *150 grams (excluding any traceamounts of carbohydrates found in protein the powder).
* Total Calories:  *Roughly900


      First of all, when formulating the macro/slin ratio above, I increasedthe amount of carbs-protein above what is typically required per IU of slin, inorder to account for users who demonstrate an above average degree of insulinsensitivity.  Most slin users or BB?rs ingeneral, will require roughly 8 grams of carbs-protein per IU of slin, in orderto break even and maintain normal blood glucose.  This protocol utilizes a 14:1 ratio (macros/slin),which will allow for pretty much anyone to employ this program whilemaintaining blood sugar within a normal range. 

Additionally, justbecause you may have met your carb requirements from a safety standpoint, itdoes not mean that safety is the only factor we should consider when decidinghow many carbs to use.   We also need totake into consideration how many carbs we need to optimize recovery &growth.  In most cases, the number ofcarbs we need to maximize recovery & growth will exceed our safety requirements.  For example, let?s say we have a 250 poundman who is using 10 IU?s of slin and he only requires 8 grams of carbs per IUto maintain blood sugar levels.  That isonly 80 grams of carbs during the entire workout window.  Most 250 pound men will need much more than80 grams of carbs during the pre/intra/post workout period?especially if theyare trying to grow.  By using his safety requirementsto determine his carb intake, he will end up limiting his potential forrecovery & growth.  Most men at that bodyweightwill require at least (or more) that amount of carbs during the workout periodif they want to maximize growth & recovery.  So, before engaging in any insulin program,you must first determine how many carbs you need to maximize the growth &recovery process.  If your metabolismrequired 250 grams of carbs before you started using insulin, it will stillrequire 250 grams of carbs after you start using insulin.  In almost all cases, the only time someone?ssafety requirements will be larger than their growth & recovery requirementsis if they are dieting for a contest and their calories and carbs are low.  Otherwise, it is rarely an issue.

             The foundation of thisprogram rests on the specific type of macros used.  Without them, every single other component/aspectof this program is negatively affected and in some cases rendered ineffectivealtogether.  High molecular weightcarbohydrates, such as branched chain cyclic dextrins, have been shown to besuperior to any other form of carbohydrate in multiple ways, such as:  1) A much faster rate of digestion andassimilation. 2) Improved glycogen compensation.  3) Enhanced insulin release.  4) The ability to pull other nutrients intocirculation at a more rapid rate (vacuum effect).  5) The inability to cause intestinal waterretention, unlike other forms of carbohydrates, such as dextrose &maltodextrin.  The result is zerobloating, no indigestion, and a tighter midsection.  6) The ability to initiate an osmotic affectat the cellular level, in which the balance of water is shifted in favor of themuscle cell & bloodstream and away from the subcutaneous region (the resultis a fuller, drier physique).  7)  Less likely to add bodyfat.  Using other forms of carbohydrates will bringinferior results and therefore, it is not advised that the individual usesubstitutions for this part of the program.

      Moving on to the protein component; hydrolyzed proteins are much morerapidly absorbed than other types of protein and are the only protein which canbe consumed along with high molecular weight carbs without impairing theirabsorption.  Hydrolyzed proteins alsohave another advantage in that they stimulate protein synthesis to a greaterdegree than either whey protein concentrate or isolate.  The is likely due to hydrolyzed whey?sleucine content entering circulation at a faster rate compared to concentrates/isolates, in addition to a large amount of EAA?s being dumped into the system allat once.  Recent research on leucineshows that the human body requires 4.5 grams of this amino acid in order to maximallystimulate protein synthesis.  This 4.5grams dose needs to be administered all at once in order to generate thisresponse, not released into the system over an extended period of time, whichoccurs when consuming concentrates & isolates.  For this reason, you will find roughly 4.5-5grams of leucine in each one of the shakes listed above, with roughly 2 gramscoming from each 20 gram serving of hydrolyzed whey and an additional 3 gramsin supplemental form.
      You will also notice the inclusion of several other muscle cell volumizers,many of which work synergistically to bring more pronounced results.  These include traditional volumizers, such astaurine, creatine, and potassium, as well as newer products like Beta alanine.

      In order to promote enhanced recovery and a maximum growth response, thetiming of the shakes has been set-up to maintain a constant influx of nutrientsthroughout the entire active life of the insulin.  Humulin R was specifically chosen for thispurpose, as its half-life will allow the user to take advantage of both theintra and post-workout windows.  HumulinR also delivers a less pronounced insulin spike, which is easier to manage formost users in comparison to a faster-acting version of insulin, such as Humalog.

      When speaking of insulin programs in general, one of the biggest issuesplaguing its users is that of insulin resistance.  Chronic, long-term insulin use can damageinsulin sensitivity, which is accompanied by all sorts of potentialcomplications.  This is the reason why mostprograms out there call for the user to take some off-time every so often, asit is necessary in order to avoid insulin resistance.  However, due to the limited exposure timeencountered while running this protocol, insulin sensitivity is only moderatelyaffected when using the program 5-6X per week. For individuals who opt to use the program only 3-4X per week, alterationsin insulin sensitivity is a non-issue.  Forthose running it the recommended 5-6X per week, one of two steps can be takento ensure insulin sensitivity is maintained. 1) The user can either take 2 weeks off for every 4 weeks on?or 2) Theindividual can add Glucophage (Metformin) into his program 3-4X per week at700-800 mg, 2X/Day.    

      For 1[SUP]st[/SUP] time insulin users, while the macro/slin ratio listedabove is always sufficient from a safety perspective, I recommend they startout at a reduced insulin dosage and gradually work their way up to the full amount.  For one?s 1[SUP]st[/SUP] inject, a dosage of6-8 IU is ideal.  This can be followed upby a 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] inject of 8-10 IU?and concluded with a 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] andfinal inject of 10-12 IU before finally moving up to the full 15 IU.  Lastly, I do not consider this programsuitable for all BB?rs, but only for those who have achieved at least amoderate level of development.    For anyone out there who has been contemplating using insulin, but doesnot know how to go about adding it into one?s program, the above protocol is anexcellent starting point and for many, the only insulin program they will everneed.


----------



## AlphaMaleDawg (Jan 26, 2013)

Mike, since most of us use HGH alongside slin, how would you go about incorporating that into your protocol? Goal is lean mass.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Jan 26, 2013)

ive been looking for a good place to get the branched chained cyclic dextrins (not for slin use), anyone have a source/supplement that would work?


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 26, 2013)

Mike - I train exclusively early AM, eating oats-egg white meal approx 2 hrs pre WO. 

Would this still work in with your protocol? 

Also I'm guessing shake 2 is nearly at end of workout, followed by shake 3 75min later when I would normally eat a meal?


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 28, 2013)

10ius after legs this morning. Still no sides, but more carb hungry today. 

I've added 2kg over the last 2 weeks of use. Strength and recovery increases very noticeable - also some bloat later in the day.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Jan 28, 2013)

AlphaMaleDawg said:


> Mike, since most of us use HGH alongside slin, how would you go about incorporating that into your protocol? Goal is lean mass.




I believe many people over-think this.  When one fully realizes how GH builds muscle tissue and how the hormone resposnible for this growth functions in the body, it becomes relatively simple.  As you know, the GH molecule itself does not result in any growth. It is the accompanying increase in IGF-1 that is resposnible for the growth we see when using GH.  When an injection of GH is administered, IGF-1 levels start going up almost right away and will peak after a few hours.  Unlike GH itself, once IGF-1 levels have peaked, they remain there for a couple of days before they finally start declining.  Since levels are maintained at a fairly steady level for such a long period of time, when we administer it is MUCH less important than how MUCH we administer, when it comes to growth (fat loss is a different story).  

In this way, it is very much like an esterfied testosterone...once you jnject test enth, it will remain in the system for a few days before levels start to decline.  For this reason, it doesn't matter of we inject test enth right before a workout, right after a workout, or the day after/before a workout...as the test will still be at near equal levels the entire time.  In the same way, if we inject GH the day before a wrkout, 10 hours before a workout, or 2 hours before a workout, it doesn't really matter in terms of growth, as IGF-1 levels will remain elevated throughout the entire period.  It is important that we don't let allow much time to pass between injects...or levels will flucuate to wildly, but a 3-4X per week injection schedule, injected on an average of EOD, is completely fine.  There is no meaningful advantage gained by injecting GH right before or right after a workout, assuming the person is maintaining a injection frequency of at least 3-4X per week, as this will maintain your IGF-1 at fairly consistent levels all week long, with only very minor flucuations.

All this stuff about perfectly timing GH injections (for mass gain) is a bit ridiculous, as it doesn't take into consideration the mechanims by which GH causes growth.  Now, like I said previously, when using GH for fat loss, the entire picture changes dramatically.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Jan 28, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> Mike - I train exclusively early AM, eating oats-egg white meal approx 2 hrs pre WO.
> 
> Would this still work in with your protocol?
> 
> Also I'm guessing shake 2 is nearly at end of workout, followed by shake 3 75min later when I would normally eat a meal?



If you are eating Meal #1 two hours prior to training...you are fine to use this program as is.  However, if your training is only about 75 minutes or less per session, you can cut down on the amount of time betwen shakes to about 60 minutes....and then a couple hours after your workout is over, you will have already coinsumed all 3 shakes a while ago and will be able to have your next whole food meal.  This is more than fine for maintaining blood sugar with 15 IU Humulin R.


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 28, 2013)

Humulin R is fast-acting as humalog? These are just differing brand names I'm guessing.


----------



## XYZ (Jan 28, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> Humulin R is fast-acting as humalog? These are just differing brand names I'm guessing.



No.  Humalog has an active life of 2-4 hours and humulin -r is about 4-8 hours (I think).


----------



## AlphaMaleDawg (Jan 28, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> I believe many people over-think this.  When one fully realizes how GH builds muscle tissue and how the hormone resposnible for this growth functions in the body, it becomes relatively simple.  As you know, the GH molecule itself does not result in any growth. It is the accompanying increase in IGF-1 that is resposnible for the growth we see when using GH.  When an injection of GH is administered, IGF-1 levels start going up almost right away and will peak after a few hours.  Unlike GH itself, once IGF-1 levels have peaked, they remain there for a couple of days before they finally start declining.  Since levels are maintained at a fairly steady level for such a long period of time, when we administer it is MUCH less important than how MUCH we administer, when it comes to growth (fat loss is a different story).
> 
> In this way, it is very much like an esterfied testosterone...once you jnject test enth, it will remain in the system for a few days before levels start to decline.  For this reason, it doesn't matter of we inject test enth right before a workout, right after a workout, or the day after/before a workout...as the test will still be at near equal levels the entire time.  In the same way, if we inject GH the day before a wrkout, 10 hours before a workout, or 2 hours before a workout, it doesn't really matter in terms of growth, as IGF-1 levels will remain elevated throughout the entire period.  It is important that we don't let allow much time to pass between injects...or levels will flucuate to wildly, but a 3-4X per week injection schedule, injected on an average of EOD, is completely fine.  There is no meaningful advantage gained by injecting GH right before or right after a workout, assuming the person is maintaining a injection frequency of at least 3-4X per week, as this will maintain your IGF-1 at fairly consistent levels all week long, with only very minor flucuations.
> 
> All this stuff about perfectly timing GH injections (for mass gain) is a bit ridiculous, as it doesn't take into consideration the mechanims by which GH causes growth.  Now, like I said previously, when using GH for fat loss, the entire picture changes dramatically.



FINALLY, the answer I've been looking for, for years. thanks!


----------



## SloppyJ (Jan 28, 2013)

He doesn't run the gearz. ^^


----------



## pieguy (Jan 28, 2013)

XYZ said:


> No.  Humalog has an active life of 2-4 hours and humulin -r is about 4-8 hours (I think).



Past the 7th hour, there is little to no worry of problems with Humulin R. It's usually more like a 5 hour window and if you time your meals around hour 4-5, you're golden for the rest of its active live. I have never gone hypo at around 7g dextrose per iu, but I also use glutamine. The one time I did go hypo using humulin R, I had not eaten for nearly two hours after the first peak so I deserved that scare. It's important to always keep some quick carbs on you like juice or a can of soda.


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 28, 2013)

Well I'm weighing in at 115.3kg this morning  - a little bloated but not surprised with the rice I hammered yesterday. That's 3kg in just over 2 weeks.

On thur in going to try 3iu preWO, followed by the 10iu shot postWO.


----------



## keith1569 (Jan 28, 2013)

hey capt, i may of missed it, but what else you running with the slin?


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 28, 2013)

High test low tren


----------



## Goodskie (Jan 28, 2013)

Negged for no tren


----------



## D-Lats (Jan 28, 2013)

Goodskie said:


> Negged for no tren


?


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 28, 2013)

Goodskie said:


> Negged for no tren



Neg me for LOW tren numbnuts


----------



## keith1569 (Jan 28, 2013)

hmm least there is tren


----------



## Mike Arnold (Jan 29, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> Humulin R is fast-acting as humalog? These are just differing brand names I'm guessing.



No...Humulin R is regular human insulin, while humalog is a fast-acting insulin.  What the other guys above said about humulin and its active life, they are correct.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Jan 29, 2013)

if you use insulin, you can generally lower your AAS dose significantly and still make substantial gains (as a first-time user) I would imagine... i would think this would be much safer (assuming the slin is done flawlessly), and much better for promoting longevity..


thoughts?


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 30, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> if you use insulin, you can generally lower your AAS dose significantly and still make substantial gains (as a first-time user) I would imagine... i would think this would be much safer (assuming the slin is done flawlessly), and much better for promoting longevity..
> 
> 
> thoughts?



A lot of Aussies bridge cycles with slin because gear is expensive and hard to come by. Slin is not - it's probably used more here than in the US.


----------



## dirtwarrior (Jan 30, 2013)

I am going to check into this


----------



## AlphaMaleDawg (Jan 30, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> if you use insulin, you can generally lower your AAS dose significantly and still make substantial gains (as a first-time user) I would imagine... i would think this would be much safer (assuming the slin is done flawlessly), and much better for promoting longevity..
> 
> 
> thoughts?



Absolutely yes IMO. Slin is much nicer on your health than most AAS are when used reasonably.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Jan 30, 2013)

AlphaMaleDawg said:


> Absolutely yes IMO. Slin is much nicer on your health than most AAS are when used reasonably.




this is what i figured.. definitely going to be running it in my cruises and blasts from now on, not more than 12 week blasts at a time.. less than 1g gear (don't want to get too big and put stress on my heart)


this is my plan

*cruise 4 weeks:*
testE trenE 100/100 10iu humalog preworkouts (my ifbb pro trainer is doing my diet and gave me an excellent protocol + i have a training partner and 4 room mates who know my circumstances)

*blast 12 weeks - 1st 4 week period

*testE trenE 125/500 (no humalog) + dbol 25mg/day

*blast 12 weeks - 2nd 4 week period*

testE trenE 125/600 (10iu humalog preworkout)

*blast 12 weeks - 3rd 4 week period*

testE trenE 125/700 (no humalog) + 25mg dbol/day

*cruise 4 weeks:
*testE trenE 100/100 10iu humalog preworkouts 



how does this look assuming i keep tabs on my fasted blood glucose to ensure im not becoming a diabetic? my end goal is to become ~205-210 at 5-6% bodyfat, and running slin in conjunction with gear will save me a ton of money/scar tissue buildup/time/effort/health problems from running long/heavy cycles


----------



## AlphaMaleDawg (Jan 30, 2013)

I think it looks like a very good plan. Looks like you've done your homework and prepared. If it were me, I'd add hgh when using slin and inject 10iu all post workout and none on off days


----------



## Standard Donkey (Jan 30, 2013)

AlphaMaleDawg said:


> I think it looks like a very good plan. Looks like you've done your homework and prepared. If it were me, I'd add hgh when using slin and inject 10iu all post workout and none on off days





i would consider it if i had a good source.. too much fake shit going around 


what am i going to do with all this gear now :/ i have 60 vials of tren E, 20 test E, 11 deca, tons of prop etc and ace



ugh.. good thing this shit has a shelf life


----------



## keith1569 (Jan 30, 2013)

Yum tren e is my favorite


----------



## Standard Donkey (Jan 30, 2013)

keith1569 said:


> Yum tren e is my favorite




samezies its gunna be nice only having to pin really small quanitities from here on out.. gunna make my muscle feel happy


----------



## BlueJayMuscle (Jan 30, 2013)

just for education purposes I'm curious sd why you want to do pre wo as opposed to post wo for humalog


----------



## BlueJayMuscle (Jan 30, 2013)

I've been considering a nearly identical protocol to you SD but with the 10iu humalog post workout. Can someone outline the difference in results and reasoning for pre wo vs. post wo


----------



## theCaptn' (Jan 30, 2013)

BlueJayMuscle said:


> just for education purposes I'm curious sd why you want to do pre wo as opposed to post wo for humalog



Yes me too - post it up.

You could also substitute IGF for HGH


----------



## Standard Donkey (Jan 30, 2013)

it's because my IFBB coach told me to


mike arnold here says that pre is better anyhow 


high insulin during your workout = no catabolism, more anabolism...

greater pumps/strength/endurance etc..


----------



## BlueJayMuscle (Jan 30, 2013)

If your workout is less than an hour it'll peak after you're done anyway... Hm I'll look into it


----------



## Standard Donkey (Jan 30, 2013)

BlueJayMuscle said:


> If your workout is less than an hour it'll peak after you're done anyway... Hm I'll look into it




its supposed to be active for 2 hours post injection. i thought it was supposed to peak almost immediately?


----------



## BlueJayMuscle (Jan 30, 2013)

It slight peaks after about 10-15 min but the big peak is an hour after injection with humalog then it's out around the 2 hour mark. That's my understanding at least


----------



## Goodskie (Jan 30, 2013)

Do you guys even lift?


----------



## Standard Donkey (Jan 31, 2013)

what does that have to do with gearz and slin?


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 1, 2013)

Another big week, hit 440lb rack pulls for reps, sitting just over 250lbs.

I'm going to try mutants protocol tommorrow without the hgh or IGF, using 12iu of insulin:

- -30 min prior to workout: Take 10iu HGH subq

- -15 min prior to workout: Take 6-16iu Novalog subq

- -10 min prior to workout: Drink shake #1

- -After every working set: Sip on shake #2, and finish by end of workout

- -Go home

- -Take 100mcg of the IGF-1lr3 (for it's insulin sensitizing effects)

- -Take down shake #3

- -Done..now you are huge
Ok, now what is in the shakes...

Shake 1: 10-20g EAA's or PeptoPro, 50g cyclic dextrins, 5g Micronized Creatine Monohydrate, 200mg Caffeine (or pre-workout powdered mix of choice in place of caffeine)

Shake 2: 10-20g EAA's or PeptoPro, 50-100g Cyclic dextrins, 5g Micronized Creatine Monohydrate

Shake 3: 2 cups pasteurized egg whites, 1 cup dry oats, 1 banana or 1 cup blueberries (I prefer them to be frozen), splenda or stevia


----------



## dieseljimmy (Feb 1, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> Another big week, hit 440lb rack pulls for reps, sitting just over 250lbs.
> 
> I'm going to try mutants protocol tommorrow without the hgh or IGF, using 12iu of insulin:
> 
> ...



I did this to the letter for 8 weeks. This cycle is when I crossed some plateus that I just assumed where genetic limitations. I have done it with just slin and its effective. I have done it with slin and igf and I think that's where the freak growth occurred.
Is is oddly difficult to choke down that last drink. I also added a scope of hydro whey to the final shake.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 1, 2013)

BlueJayMuscle said:


> If your workout is less than an hour it'll peak after you're done anyway... Hm I'll look into it




There isn't really any need to concern yourself with its "peak".  It is far more important to make sure it is active when you want it to be.  Humulin R starts releasing immediately, but it generally takes at least 30-60 minutes before one feels their blood sugar dropping, as it takes some time to deplete current blood sugar levels.   If Humulin is injected 30-60 minutes prior to a workout, that is more than fine.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 1, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> Another big week, hit 440lb rack pulls for reps, sitting just over 250lbs.
> 
> I'm going to try mutants protocol tommorrow without the hgh or IGF, using 12iu of insulin:
> 
> ...





 Mutant recently changed the ingredients in his shakes (he added both branched cyclic dextrins and hydrolyzed proteins), which is what a few other coaches have been recommending, including myself and John Meadows.  It is good he made these change, as they are much better than what he was recommending before, but there are still some significant errors in his program, which he should adjust.

For one, Pepto pro is not your best choice of protein, as it is denatured hydrolyzed calcium caseinate.  Calcium caseinate is crap.  The only good thing about peptopro is that it is hydrolyzed.  That's it.  The protien itself is junk, despite its relatively high cost.  Non-denatured hydrolzyed proteins are superior, such as hydrolyzed micellar casein, hydrolyzed whey, or hydrolyzed beef protein.   EAA's are a good choice for guys who have trouble digesting all those shakes during training, but they are not the most effective for growth, as all free form aminos acids are completely lacking in all the growth factors found in whole proteins.  The proteins I mentioned are loaded with growth factors, while maintaining their hydrolyzed form.  Casein (specifically hydrolyzed micellar casein) is a great protein for growth when combined with hydrolyzed whey (the science confirms that growth is superior when the two are combined), but this can be costly. 

I see mutant just started recommending branched chain cyclic dextrins...something both John and I have been doing or quite some time.  They are the best form of carbohydrate for this purpose...period.

Mutant does not include Luecine in his shakes, which is a VITAL mistake.  Leucine is the ONLY amino acid capable of stimulating protien synthesis.  Without Leucine, there won't be ANY growth.  With less than optimal levels of leucine, it does not matter how much protein you eat...your body can NOT optimize potein syntheis.  Its inclusion is vital.  Science shows that it takes about 4.5 grams of leucine, consumed all at once in rapidly digesting form (free form Leucine is best for this purpose, as growth factors are not what were after when supplementing with leucine).  In mutant's program, the total amount of EAA's included does not come anywhere close to supplying optimal leucine levels throughout the training window....and neither does pepto pro.    PeptoPro, being a casein protein, supplies less leucine than proteins like whey and not anywhere close to enough leucine to maximize protein syntheis.  

In addition, IGF-1 LR3 should NOT...I repeat NOT be injected immediately after one's workout, as it stunts the normal growth process initiated by the body post-training.  Immediately after training, the body intentionally turns off IGF-1 production and initiates MGF production.  The 1st MGF variant is produced directly within muscle tissue for about 2 hours proceeding a workout.  Afterwards, the body begins to manufacture the 2nd MGF variant, which will continue for several hours. MGF is critical in the recovery & growth process.  The problem with injecting IGF-1 right after training is that both IGF-1 and MGF bind to the same receptor sites.  The reason this is a problem is because IGF-1 has a sigificantly stronger binding affinity than MGF, so when IGF-1 is present post-wokout, it prevents the MGF from attaching to the the receptor and doing its job.  In other words, by injecting IGF-1 post-workout, you are stopping the bod from initiating an important phase in the growth process.  IGF-1, regardless of form, should never be used immediately after training.  The goal of using IGF-1 is to compliment and coincide with the body's natural growth process, not interupt it.  Disrupting this entire process just so we can increase insulin sensitivity does not make sense.  Not only is the proliferation-differentiation process more important (this is how MGF & IGF-1 interact to grow new muscle fibers) than experiencing a tiny increase in insulin sensitivity, but we can use other drugs which are far more effective for increaing insulin sensity, without causing any of these issues.  The drug is Glucophase (Metformin)...and it does a MUCH bette job of enhancing insulin sensitivity than IGF-1.  

Lastly, if one is using IGF-1 LR3 to increase insulin sensitivity, why inject it after the workout, when the insulin was injected a few hours prior?  It makes much more sense to inject DES 10 minutes pre-workout, which will not only increase insulin sensitivity at the time you most want it most (during the workout), but it won't interfere with the proliferation-differentiation process, due to its short active life.

All in all, every aspect of the program I listed is superior.  For those who are interested in including peptides such as GH, IGF-1, and MGF, I have included them below for reference:


*45 minutespre-workout:   *15 IU Humulin R.

*20 minutes pre-workout:   *50 grams Branched chain cyclic dextrins.   20 grams non-denatured hydrolyzed protein.  20 grams Glycerol monostearate.   3 gramsLeucine.   5 grams Micronized creatine monohydrate.   2 grams Beta alanine.   3 grams Taurine.   500 mg Potassium.  1 gram Vitamin C.   

*10 minutes pre-workout:*   100-300 mcg DES IGF-1.   

*60 minutes after 1[SUP]st[/SUP]shake:   *50 grams Branched chain cyclic dextrins.   20 grams non-denatured hydrolyzed protein.  3 gramsLeucine.   5 grams Micronized creatine.   2 grams Beta alanine.   3 grams Taurine.  

*Immediately post-workout:   *500mcg PEG-MGF.

*20 minutes post-workout:   *10 IU GH.

*60 minutes after 2[SUP]nd[/SUP]shake **(the workout will likely be finished bynow)**:  *50grams Branched chain cyclic dextrins.   20 grams non-denatured hydrolyzed protein.  3 grams Leucine.


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 1, 2013)

Mike, thanks for the heads up on the igf - that is something easily sourced in Aus. HGH is near impossible.

I was drawn by mutants protocol as he uses the same insulin type as I have.

the recipe I saw of mutant had dextrose. I just made the quick edit as I posted, note my actual shakes are pretty much as you laid down - including the cyclic dextrins and leucine.

Ill make adjustment and see how it rolls.

Ok...now that mak'es sense.  Thatls what I remember utant including in his shakes...dextrose.  Dextrose is way out-dated...no reason to use that stuff anymore...ever.  I don't want to sound like i am bashing peptoprp that hard...becaue it is a hydrolyzed protein...it just happens to be denatured quite a bit compared to most other protein sold today, but it is still better than consuming a non-hydrolyzed protein.

As far as which insulin is used...humulin or humalog...either one is fine.  You simply have to adjust the shake timing.  Humulin is probably a bit easier to use, as you don't have to drink the shakes so fast.  Drinking all those shakes within a short period of time can make someone rather full.

Also, if you prefer to use whole food in your last shake, go for it.  In reality, eating a bunch of protein & carbs, along with a big dose of slin, is going to work well...regardless of which sources are used.

You are right about GH being a bitch to get over in Aus....and when it is available, it is a complete rip-off...wayyyy over-priced.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 1, 2013)

Mike, are you saying that peptopro is essentially worthless for muscle growth? if so, where can i get the protein you suggested?


for what it's worth, John Meadows swears by peptopro, as does shelby IIRC..


would you say that whey isolate > peptopro, in terms of growth/recovery?

thank you



EDIT: True Nutrition - TN Proteins if you see there, TN has both calcium caseinate _*and *_peptopro, you are confident they are the same thing even though they are different products?


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 1, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> Mike, are you saying that peptopro is essentially worthless for muscle growth? if so, where can i get the protein you suggested?
> 
> 
> for what it's worth, John Meadows swears by peptopro, as does shelby IIRC..
> ...



John now recommends a different hydrolysate...not peptopro.  I believe switched to hydrolyzed micellar casein for the same reason I mentioned...because it is not dentaured like PeptoPro.  See, PeptoPro used to be one of the only pure hydrolyzed proteins available, but now that there are other (and better) hydrolyzed proteins on the market, he recommends the better ones.  As for Shelby, I am not sure what he recommends, but regardless, peptopro is no longer the best.

Like I stated in a previous post, peptopro and calcium caseinate are different products.  Peptopro is hydrolyzed calcium caseinate, while regular calcium caseinate is not hydrolyzed.


No, I would NOT recommend an isolate over peptopro.  As I said in every other post, the protein should be hydrolyzed for best results with this type of program.  But...there are different types of hydrolyzed proteins.  Any protein can be hydrolyzed.  Pepto pro is hydrolyzed calcium caseinate.  Calcium caseinate is a relatively poor quality protein, compared to proteins such as whey isolate, micellar casein,  and beef protein isolate.  You would be much better off consuming hydrolyzed whey isolate, hydrolyzed micellar casen, or hydrolyzed beef protein isolate.  In my opinion, a combination of all 3 is ideal.  Science has proven that a combination of whey and casein results is better growth than consuming only whey or casein.  No studies, to my knwledge, have compared beed protein isolate to whey or casein, but due to beef's unqiue microfractions, combining all 3 is likely the best way to go.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 1, 2013)

where do we find this hydrolyzed micellar casein?


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 1, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> where do we find this hydrolyzed micellar casein?



Sorry, but I Don't know.  I think John said he knows of a particular product coming out which contains it, but I don't think it is avaiable as a pure protein...although I could be wrong.  It will be very expensive.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 1, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> where do we find this hydrolyzed micellar casein?



Sorry, but I don't know.  I think John said he knows of a particular product coming out which contains it, but I don't think it is avaiable as a pure protein...although I could be wrong.  It will be very expensive.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 1, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> Sorry, but I don't know.  I think John said he knows of a particular product coming out which contains it, but I don't think it is avaiable as a pure protein...although I could be wrong.  It will be very expensive.





im guessing biotest is coming out with it... hmmm coincidence? lol, thanks for the info bro


----------



## AlphaMaleDawg (Feb 1, 2013)

Leucine is really that important when taking slin?? Dam, off to the Vitamin Shoppe to buy some immediately because I haven't been using it


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 1, 2013)

AlphaMaleDawg said:


> Leucine is really that important when taking slin?? Dam, off to the Vitamin Shoppe to buy some immediately because I haven't been using it



Leucine isn't important only when taking slin...it is important all the time.  Anytime you are trying to stimulate maximal growth, leucine intake must be at peak levels.  It cannot happen any other way.  It is the ONLY amino acid capable of and responsible for stimulating protein synthesis...none of the other aminosdo.  No leucine= no growth.  Less than optimal amounts of leuince= less than optimal growth...period.  It doesn't matter how many other aminos/protein you eat, you will never maxzimize protein syntheis unless leucine intake is ideal.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 1, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> Leucine isn't important only when taking slin...it is important all the time.  Anytime you are trying to stimulate maximal growth, leucine intake must be at peak levels.  It cannot happen any other way.  It is the ONLY amino acid capable of and responsible for stimulating protein synthesis...none of the other aminosdo.  No leucine= no growth.  Less than optimal amounts of leuince= less than optimal growth...period.  It doesn't matter how many other aminos/protein you eat, you will never maxzimize protein syntheis unless leucine intake is ideal.




would you recommend taking say... 5g with every meal?


----------



## AlphaMaleDawg (Feb 1, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> Leucine isn't important only when taking slin...it is important all the time.  Anytime you are trying to stimulate maximal growth, leucine intake must be at peak levels.  It cannot happen any other way.  It is the ONLY amino acid capable of and responsible for stimulating protein synthesis...none of the other aminosdo.  No leucine= no growth.  Less than optimal amounts of leuince= less than optimal growth...period.  It doesn't matter how many other aminos/protein you eat, you will never maxzimize protein syntheis unless leucine intake is ideal.



I just immediately ordered some upon reading your post


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 1, 2013)

Thanks again for your input Mike - much appreciated


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 2, 2013)

bump for answer?


----------



## cottonmouth (Feb 2, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> bump for answer?



^^ Truenutrition has hydrolyzed casein, not just pepto pro,, not sure if it micellar though.  

I did 5iu humulin r preworkout this morning, using the the shakes as Mike posted and the pumps were crazy, I shortened the times in between shakes to 60 minutes instead of 75 because my workouts are only about 75 minutes long. The recovery time in between sets was a lot shorter. I'm going to bump to 8iu tomorrow.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 2, 2013)

cottonmouth said:


> ^^ Truenutrition has hydrolyzed casein, not just pepto pro,, not sure if it micellar though.
> 
> I did 5iu humulin r preworkout this morning, using the the shakes as Mike posted and the pumps were crazy, I shortened the times in between shakes to 60 minutes instead of 75 because my workouts are only about 75 minutes long. The recovery time in between sets was a lot shorter. I'm going to bump to 8iu tomorrow.




i was actually referring to any possible benefit with adding leucine to meals


----------



## dirtwarrior (Feb 2, 2013)

I know it is leagle to get the R type but what do you say to pharmist to get it without raising alarm


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 2, 2013)

dirtwarrior said:


> I know it is leagle to get the R type but what do you say to pharmist to get it without raising alarm




"i need humlin R"


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 2, 2013)

I did 12iu following mikes protocol. Had shake 2 with me and needed it 40min after shake 1 - took half then finished it 20min later after WO. Killer delt pumps for sure.

I've got another week of slin-gear cycle, then got a weeks holiday, cruising for 8 weeks total.

Have a mate giving me some 30:70 blend. Ill probably run more slin in April.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 2, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> I did 12iu following mikes protocol. Had shake 2 with me and needed it 40min after shake 1 - took half then finished it 20min later after WO. Killer delt pumps for sure.
> 
> I've got another week of slin-gear cycle, then got a weeks holiday, cruising for 8 weeks total.
> 
> Have a mate giving me some 30:70 blend. Ill probably run more slin in April.






how killer were the pumps on a scale of 1-10? Also, how is your recovery in general? do you feel you are able to train more often?


----------



## president (Feb 2, 2013)

I did 15iu pre following mike's protocol. First day i used 10. Hoping to run this for 4 weeks at 5x per week.


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 2, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> how killer were the pumps on a scale of 1-10? Also, how is your recovery in general? do you feel you are able to train more often?



Recovery has been exceptional. That has been the standout feature of slin use so far. Been feeling fresh before each WO, hitting PBs 2x week. 

I guess I could train more times a week, but think 4x week is enough, I'd rather keep the rest time for growth.

Pumps a good 8+. Especially with delts, had to extend time between sets yesterday. This is when using slin preWO.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 3, 2013)

i cant fucking wait to try this shit..


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 3, 2013)

I'm just gonna say there is alot of bad info in this thread too much bro-science and no one factual info to help one use insulin correctly.

The difference between humalog and humulin r is in the bell curve. humalog spikes rapidly and higher peaking around 60 minutes then rapidly drops till about 2 hours later at this point it slowly drops for 4-6 hours. last about 8 hours

humulin r has a longer smoother curve and only peaks about half as high 45 minutes after inject and levels off for 2 hours then slowly drops for 4-6 hours with the possibilty for rebound spikes about 4 hours after and last about 8 hours.

Everyone reacts differently and what works for one person should not be considered fact for another.

Only thing you need to focus on is Carbs all other macro BS has nothing to do with insulin use.
Carbs are also sugar and fiber
you need to find a safe amount of insulin per carbs, some carbs take up to 2 hours to digest. When you count carbs fiber and sugar alcohol are subtracted they dont effect blood glucose. You dose insulin on a sliding scale of 15 carbs per iu( different for everyone you need to find your balance)  thats how its propperly done..


Risks are not only hypoglycemia which can cuase siezures and death, hypokalemia your lungs become paralyzed and you die, hepatic impairment, insulin resistance. 

just sayn. get the fact right and be safe


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 3, 2013)

Good info on the bell curves - you got a source link for those?


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 3, 2013)

I can try and scan the info that comes with my insulin. Altho they give you a pretty good baseline everyone is different. Your body is constantly producing it own glucose and your insulin production is affected by many things, infection lowers insulin, stress, alcohol.


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 3, 2013)

sweet they have it online pages 6-7 have bell curves for use before high carb meals

http://pi.lilly.com/us/humalog-pen-pi.pdf


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 3, 2013)

Ah, so you're a diabetic. Info very much appreciated. 

Question: do you use insulin for bb purposes?


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 3, 2013)

yes I'm diabetic, I'm not into BBing, more trying to bring up some troubled spots, my calves, triceps and shoulders never developed so I abuse gear for that reason. Seems like insulin use is the most confusing subject when used with AAS, but actually everyone is complicating it


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 4, 2013)

heckler7 said:


> yes I'm diabetic, I'm not into BBing, more trying to bring up some troubled spots, my calves, triceps and shoulders never developed so I abuse gear for that reason. Seems like insulin use is the most confusing subject when used with AAS, but actually everyone is complicating it



The question is, do you time your slin dosages to maximize your gains?


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 4, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> would you recommend taking say... 5g with every meal?



It really depends on what you're eating/taking it with.  The science says that protein syntheis is maxmized with 4.5 grams, but keep in mind that this was 4.5 grams of leucine in powder form, which means it was digested rapidly and all at once; it did not trickle into the system over several hours.  As an example, if you eat enough beef to take in 4.5 grams of leucine, that 4.5 grams will take several hours to digest and reach the blood stream.  Small amounts of leucine will gradually be leached into circulation, which means you're really not taking in anywhere near enough leucine to optimize proten synthesis.  Optimizing protein synthesis with 4.5 grams requires that it all be dumped into the system in a bolus.

The reason why whey protein does a better job of stimulating protein syntheis in comparison to other proteins (on a gram per gram basis) is because of its higher leucine content, as well as its ability to dump that leucine into the bloodstream quickly.  It takes about 40-45 grams of whey to get 4.5 grams of leucine, but since regular whe even isolates do not digest instantly, the leucine takes about 90 minutes t fully enter circulation.  That is still much quicker than other proteins, such as meat, but not quick enough to maximize protein synthesis.  If you take whey hydrolysate, there really isn't any need to supplement with additional leucine (assuming you're consuming about 40-45 grams at once), as the leucine in hydrolyzed whey will rapidly dump into the bloodstream...within about 30 minutes, which is good enough.  

Now, with the 3 shakes in the insulin protocol, leucine is added to each one, but that is because each shake only has 20 grams of protein.  So, you would need to add about 2.5-3.0 grams of additional leucine to the shakes, in order to maximize protein synthesis each time.  I find this approach superior to adding more hydrolyate, as drinking 40-45 grams of hydrolysate in 3 different hsakes over a relatively short period of time is not only expensive, but it increases the volume of the hakes too much during a workout.  By adding a bit of leucine with each shake, not only is protein synthesis maximized, but you won't feel as full...and its cheaper.  Besides, when consuming 3 shakes, the person is already taking in 60 grams of whey hydrolysate over a couple hour period, which is plenty...absolutely no need for additional protein.

Now, if you are eating something like steak, then yes, I would recommend about 4 grams of leucine, in order to make up for the very slow digestion time of red meat.  In reality, any protein you consume can be made into a super-protein, as long as leucine levels are optimal.  You could eat only soy and achieve the same increase in protein synthesis you would experience with whey, as long as you add in the requisite amount of leucine.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 4, 2013)

cottonmouth said:


> ^^ Truenutrition has hydrolyzed casein, not just pepto pro,, not sure if it micellar though.
> 
> I did 5iu humulin r preworkout this morning, using the the shakes as Mike posted and the pumps were crazy, I shortened the times in between shakes to 60 minutes instead of 75 because my workouts are only about 75 minutes long. The recovery time in between sets was a lot shorter. I'm going to bump to 8iu tomorrow.



Wait till you get up to about 15 IU...great pumps...much, much better than 5 IU.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 4, 2013)

dirtwarrior said:


> I know it is leagle to get the R type but what do you say to pharmist to get it without raising alarm



How about..."I'll take a bottle of Humulin R please, thanks".  That will do it.


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 4, 2013)

Update: took 12iu preWO as per Mike's set out - shakes are 40min apart.

Did a high-vol Leg WO focussing on hams and calves. Again killer pumps, but also noticed heighted recovery btw sets. Finished off with 20 rep leg press and shorts were unbelievably tight over my quads. Weight is up another 0.5kg and I'm feeling heavy.

Got caught in a meeting running overtime mid - morning, started to get a little light-headed. Meal was an hour late, and never felt like I fully recovered during the day. Had shortness of breath, but that may have been tren-related.

Got two more WOs for the week before I shelve the slin for a few months.


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 4, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> Wait till you get up to about 15 IU...great pumps...much, much better than 5 IU.



Lol sold! 15iu on Wed it is!


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 4, 2013)

heckler7 said:


> I'm just gonna say there is alot of bad info in this thread too much bro-science and no one factual info to help one use insulin correctly.
> *Really?  Actually, you're the one spitting out some nonsense right now...and I will be more than happy to point it out. I will start out by addressing the safety factor of the recommended program. First and foremost, as long as blood sugar is maintained in a safe range throughout the life of the slin, that is all that matters from a safety standpoint.  I have had literally over 100 people follow this plan (that I know of, not to mention all the others who have used it on various sites that I don't know about...which is many) and not a single one of them had any serious trouble.  Why?  Because the nutritional intake I recommend relative to the types & qautities of slin administered is more than adequate, even for those with the highest levels of insulin sensitivity.  Everything has been thought out in advance.
> 
> The macro content contained in the shakes is more than enough to cover the slin dosage recommended...easily.  In fact, it is way more than enough for anyone.  I have never, I repeat...NEVER seen a single person requirr more than 15 grams of macros per IU, which is what this plan calls for.  If someone out there does, then it still won't matter.  The amount of macros contained in the shakes was selected so that it would cover the slin dose even if there were no other sources of blood sugar to compensate.  Not only would the person already have blood sugar present prior to consuming their 1st shake (enough to cover several IU of slin in the overwhelimgly large number of cases), but in times of danergously low blood sugar, the body's defense mechanism, glucogenesis, kicks in....which is amazingly efficient as handling fairly large amounts of insulin.  There is NO WAY in all hell that the number of IU's recommended would ever overcome the nutrional intake in the shakes, the person's current blood sugar, and the body's natural defense mechanism.
> ...


.....


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 4, 2013)

heckler7 said:


> yes I'm diabetic, I'm not into BBing, more trying to bring up some troubled spots, my calves, triceps and shoulders never developed so I abuse gear for that reason. Seems like insulin use is the most confusing subject when used with AAS, but actually everyone is complicating it




LOL...I knew it...it was obvious by your post that you didn't know jack-dick about how to use insulin for BB'ing.  You're the typical diabetic who thinks he automatically knows what the hell he is talking about simply because he is a diabetc.  I got news for you...you don't know shit about how to apply this drug to the world of BB'ing....and you certainly don;t know how to best maintain someone's insulin sensitivity in the long-term.

You MIGHT know how to keep someone safe from acute harm (hypohlycemia), but I certainly wouldn't have faith in you, as the ONLY person you've ever treated was yourself..not exactly good for instilling confidence.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 4, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> The question is, do you time your slin dosages to maximize your gains?




It is EXTREMEY obvious that this guy doesn't know jack shit about how to use insulin in BB'rs.  He has NO CLUE how to answer the question you just posted...nor does he know a bunch of other CRUCIAL shit one must know in order proplery direct a BB'r.  I have met numerous diabetics like him....guys that think they know "everything" about insulin simply because they have the disease.  Typically, they are worthless when it comes to learing how to best use insulin for BB'ing p\ourposes...and they are worthless when it comes to teaching someone how to best maintain long-term health (because as a diabetic, he isn't exposed to all the same riska we are as non-diabetics).  They only treat themselves as it applies to their disease...big difference between what they and what we are trying to accomplish.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 4, 2013)

so glad you're here Mike Arnold.. thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to teach us these things.




here is the humalog protocol im going to be running, what do you think?

*Pre/post/during workout protocol for training days:
*45 min Preworkout: 1/2 cup oats (dry measure), 45g grams protein from whey, 1 tbsp almond butter, 3g beta alanine, 5g citrulline malate 

Workout drink (start drinking 15 minutes before training; 80g carbs from Karbolyn or Karboload, 1 scoop Pepto-Pro, 3g beta alanine, 5g citrulline malate 

Humalog  10ius taken 5-10 minutes before training 


1 hour post workout: 1.5 cups cooked white rice, 7oz cooked measure lean steak (top round, eye of round, etc.)

(have at least one more whole food meal before going to bed, if you train in the evenings)



so eat meal 45minutes pre, begin drinking drink 15 minutes pre, pin 10 minutes pre.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 4, 2013)

bump


----------



## dieseljimmy (Feb 4, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> LOL...I knew it...it was obvious by your post that you didn't know jack-dick about how to use insulin for BB'ing.  You're the typical diabetic who thinks he automatically knows what the hell he is talking about simply because he is a diabetc.  I got news for you...you don't know shit about how to apply this drug to the world of BB'ing....and you certainly don;t know how to best maintain someone's insulin sensitivity in the long-term.
> 
> You MIGHT know how to keep someone safe from acute harm (hypohlycemia), but I certainly wouldn't have faith in you, as the ONLY person you've ever treated was yourself..not exactly good for instilling confidence.



So after reading mikes responses... My first thought goes to billy madison 

question: "The industrial revolution changed the face of the American novel forever. Discuss citing specific examples."


Billy: "The industrial revolution to me is just like a story i know called the puppy who lost his way. The world was changing, and the puppy was getting bigger...So you see, the puppy was like industry, in that they were both lost in the woods and nobody, especially the little boy, "society", knew where to find them. Except that the puppy was a dog, but the industry my friends, that was a revolution. Knibb High football rules!"


Question asker: "Mr Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."


Billy:"Ok, a simple wrong would have done just fine."


----------



## AlphaMaleDawg (Feb 4, 2013)

lmfao at Mike Arnold's ownage


----------



## cottonmouth (Feb 4, 2013)

Haha ,, 

I did 11iu. today. And after I drank my last shake I decided to put off my meal to let myself go a bit hypo to see how it feels. To me it was very manageable, it felt like it took a long time to build up, started sweating a bit, then I would say it "hit" me after about 20 minutes. Got a bit dizzy, shaky hands, more sweat. I drank half a soda and was better in ten minutes. Then ate my meal. No big deal.

There was a great deal of warning I would say. If you ignore that 20-30 minutes where your dropping then the hit could be a surprise I guess. But it was very obvious. 

And the pumps are insane, I am on drol too, but definitely the greatest pumps of my life. Even hours after my workout my lats are pumped, and painful if I flex them.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 4, 2013)

cottonmouth said:


> Haha ,,
> 
> I did 11iu. today. And after I drank my last shake I decided to put off my meal to let myself go a bit hypo to see how it feels. To me it was very manageable, it felt like it took a long time to build up, started sweating a bit, then I would say it "hit" me after about 20 minutes. Got a bit dizzy, shaky hands, more sweat. I drank half a soda and was better in ten minutes. Then ate my meal. No big deal.



HOW DID U NOT DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEe


----------



## Antidemo (Feb 4, 2013)

Diabetic and on pump   Keeps lean but usually after taking bolus of humalog and hitting gym come home with a BG of 30mg/DL. But y'all are able to eat heavy carbs I can't.  As long as you eat should be good.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 4, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> so glad you're here Mike Arnold.. thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to teach us these things.
> D*on't mention it.  I am here to enjoy myself just like everyone else, but thanks.
> *
> 
> ...



From a safety standpoint, it looks fine to me.  You're consuming a fairly large dose of karboload and PeptoPro at basically the same time you inject your Humalog, at a ratio of about 10:1 ratio (mascros to slin).  However, you're also consuming slower digesting oats, some whey, and almond butter 45 minutes pre-workout, which will help supply additional nutrients after the Karboload and Peptopro have already dumped into the sytem.  That should be more than fine for managing a 10 IU inject of humalog.

By the time you get to your rice and steak meal, the humalog will be pretty much all used up, whch is fine, but just putting it out there.

Some guys who use humalog, especially if they train on the longer side (90-120 minutes) will inject Humalog twice...once shortly before training...and again about 2-2.5 hours later so they can more efficiently transport the nutrients from the post-workout meal into the muscle, as well.  Injecting Humalog in 2 doses, with each about 2 hours apart, is similar to using Humulin R, in terms of how long insulin levels will stay elevated.  Of course, you don't have to do that, but it is an option.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 4, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> From a safety standpoint, it looks fine to me.  You're consuming a fairly large dose of karboload and PeptoPro at basically the same time you inject your Humalog, at a ratio of about 10:1 ratio (mascros to slin).  However, you're also consuming slower digesting oats, some whey, and almond butter 45 minutes pre-workout, which will help supply additional nutrients after the Karboload and Peptopro have already dumped into the sytem.  That should be more than fine for managing a 10 IU inject of humalog.
> 
> By the time you get to your rice and steak meal, the humalog will be pretty much all used up, whch is fine, but just putting it out there.
> 
> Some guys who use humalog, especially if they train on the longer side (90-120 minutes) will inject Humalog twice...once shortly before training...and again about 2-2.5 hours later so they can more efficiently transport the nutrients from the post-workout meal into the muscle, as well.  Injecting Humalog in 2 doses, with each about 2 hours apart, is similar to using Humulin R, in terms of how long insulin levels will stay elevated.  Of course, you don't have to do that, but it is an option.





thank you sir! i will definitely be exploring other methods in the future, just want to be safe/effective for my first run (which starts this friday, will post thread)


----------



## murf23 (Feb 4, 2013)

I cant believe how much I am learning from Mike and this whole thread ...Great job with your log Captn' thanks . And also Donkey for all the great questions . Its great to have Mike here and I really want to give this a try also . Been wanting to for years but I think Im gonna wait to follow Donkeys log also and see how it goes ...But alll and all GREAT FUCKING THREAD RIGHT HERE


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 4, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> thank you sir! i will definitely be exploring other methods in the future, just want to be safe/effective for my first run (which starts this friday, will post thread)



For your 1st day, I generally recommend starting with only about 6-7 IU of humalog...then around 8 IU the next...then 10 IU after that.  You're better off giving yourself at least 1-2 days to break into it.


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 5, 2013)

Yep big thanks and respect to Mike for his knowledge and guidance - IM is lucky to have him here


----------



## pieguy (Feb 5, 2013)

Glad MA is setting people straight about insulin usage. This board has always been extremely frightened by the stuff. 

But my question is with the recommendation for Branched Chain Cyclic Dextrins, where there hell do you get them...? Seems like Glycofuse by Gaspari is the only supplement that has them right now without being a shitty proprietary blend.


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 5, 2013)

I could only find the gaspari product - it's not cheap!


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 5, 2013)

pieguy said:


> Glad MA is setting people straight about insulin usage. This board has always been extremely frightened by the stuff.
> 
> But my question is with the recommendation for Branched Chain Cyclic Dextrins, where there hell do you get them...? Seems like Glycofuse by Gaspari is the only supplement that has them right now without being a shitty proprietary blend.



I believe VPX sells it as well, but I have heard a few complaints about their version, mainly in term of digestion.  With BCCD's, digestion and bloating should be a non-issue, which makes me wonder if they have added other catbs into the mix in order to increase profits.  Generally, VPX is known to be a good quality company, but anything is possible.


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 5, 2013)

Mike, you may have good success with your set up and I think thats great for you, but I was merely pointing out that everyone is different, I almost died from kidney failure because the AIC test that they use to test for diabetes would come back negative for me for almost a year the doctors couldnt figure out I was diabetic. Everyone reacts differently to insulin.
Even you agree that everyone reacts differently so this is what I'm saying. you can drink all the protien you want and it wont mean shit with insulin.
I admit that I'm not a advanced bodybuilder, but I do no more than the basic knowledge on how insulin works which I havent seen you show one egg of knowledge about.

Honestly guys Mike Arnold is not an expert on insulin I know he thinks he is but trust me he is not informing you in anyway what it is doing when it enters your body, any retard can tell you how to mix a protien shake. and I didnt see one fact about insulin in any of your post only what everyone knows about BCAAs and protien.

Check it out heres a new protocal that is more effective
scoop of protien chocolate flavor
one bannana
half cup of strawberries
drink 20 ounces before workout and take 15ius of slin
drink 20 ounces during workout
drink 20 ounces after workout
carry with you a small tube of cake decorating gel in case you feel hypo

your gonna get huge Mike Arnold says so.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 5, 2013)

ok guys let's just let it go ok? this is a solid thread



just let it go


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 5, 2013)

and your statement that macros and insulin is basic info, is documented where? havent seen you provide a fact yet. just sayn keep up the very informative bro-science I'm sure 100's of people sticking a truely dangerous drug in their body with no clue what it is really doing appreciate it.

Seriously Carbs/ sugar + insulin that is all. Insulin does not bind to steak or chicken but will to a snickers bar. These are facts my friends. you need to concern yourself only with the correct carb to insuliln ratio. 

Make sure you eat bannanas insulin will cause muscles to absorb potasium out of your blood and can cause hyperkalemia
Does Insulin Raise Potassium Levels? | LIVESTRONG.COM

BCAAs may cause insulin resistance some facts
Insulin Resistance May Result From Too Much Protein Eaten Along With Fat

Insulin makes your liver store fat and cause the bodys natural fat burning to slow
Physiologic Effects of Insulin


Seems like I know enough, keep bashing the guy that has knowledge about the drug. Your pretend friends will rep and like you for awesome ownage


----------



## murf23 (Feb 5, 2013)

I am learning from the both of ya ,,,Just sayin lol


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 5, 2013)

heckler7 said:


> Mike, you may have good success with your set up and I think thats great for you, but I was merely pointing out that everyone is different, I almost died from kidney failure because the AIC test that they use to test for diabetes would come back negative for me for almost a year the doctors couldnt figure out I was diabetic. Everyone reacts differently to insulin.
> Even you agree that everyone reacts differently so this is what I'm saying. you can drink all the protien you want and it wont mean shit with insulin.
> I admit that I'm not a advanced bodybuilder, but I do no more than the basic knowledge on how insulin works which I havent seen you show one egg of knowledge about.
> 
> ...



So, you think you can drink all the protein you want and it wont mean shit with insulin?  OK...if you say so (as I shake my head and laugh at your ignorance). The point of my posts in this thread wasn't to inform the reader about all the functions of insulin and how it works within the body to help a BB'r achieve his goals.  If you want to know that infomation, you can read one of several aticles I have written on the subject.  In this thread, I was simply attempting to explain how to use insulin to achieve excellent results.  There are literally 100's of people who have used this program, with several other well-respected members of our community recommending very similar programs.  There is a good reason for this.  Buddy...you're dumb...and you're only making yourself look dumber in this current post of yours.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 6, 2013)

heckler7 said:


> and your statement that macros and insulin is basic info, is documented where?
> *Uhhh...this a BB'ing website and we are BB'rs.  Pretty much everyone who uses insulin understands the connectioin between macro intake and insulin usage.  Otherwise, how could we even begin to structure a safe or effective program?  Hmmm???  Obviously, you are far removed from the world of BB'ing and performance enhancment.  That is one of the first things you learn about insulin as a BB'r looking to use it for performance ehancement.
> *
> havent seen you provide a fact yet.
> ...



I just don't have the time to sit here and argue with someone who doesn't even understand the basics of insulin use for BB'rs...and especially someone who thinls protein cannot be used like carbs.  If you had any clue what you were taking about...you would know this.  No, youcan NOT a eat a steak or a chicken breast and count it as a carb, but you sure as fuck can count hydrolyzed whey, casein, beef, or even soy protein as such.  In fact, BB'rs have known this for decades (where have you been???).  Many years ago myself and several clients experimented with an insulin program which utilized ONLY protein...and the doses of slin used were not small.  I wonder how we all lived?  Anyway, the point of this set-up was to take advantage of insulin's tissue building effects without experiencing any fat gain, which can sometimes accompany insulin usage.  The program was successful, but for various reasons, I no longer feel that approach is the best way to go, regardless of one's goals. 

Without getting into great detail, the program entailed using insulin 5-6X per day with a long with a protein shake made up of whey isolate (hydrolyzed protens weren't widely available at the time, although they would have been superior).  This was a 4 week program.  While we had to be more careful because we were using isolates instead of the more rapidly digesting hydrolysates, it was still doable.  We would inject 6 IU of humalog 5-6X per day, with 50 grams of whey isolate each time.  Hypogycemia was not an issue.  Why?  Because insulin transports both carbs and protein into muscle, which in turn uses up the insulin which was injected.  The reason we can't use standard proteins for this purpose, such as steak or eggs, without going hypo, is because they are digested and assimilated very slowly.  This is not so with hydrolyzed proteins, which will rapidly and efficiently raise both blood sugar and blood amino acid levels.  Whey protein, especially hydrolyzed whey protein, is insulinogenic...which means insulin is secreted in response to its ingestion.  Why?  Because its very rapid digestion rate results in a quick spike in blood sugar and amino acid concentration.  Every study ever done on this confirms it.  If whey protein did not have this effect, insulin would not be released in response to its ingestion and it would not be labeled as an insulinogenic protein.  This is why hydrolyzed why protein can be used in place of carbs, although for optimal muscle building effect, the inclusion of carbs is essential.  

If you don't believe this...do a search on PubMed...maybe you'll learn something.  Or...you can try it out for yourself.  Inject 10 IU of humalog immmediately followed by 50 grams of hydrolyzed whey protein, along with another 50 grams 45 minutes later.  Guess what will happen?  Nothing....no passing out from low blood sugar...no lying in your bed in a coma.

Lastly....LOL at the random links you posted above.   I can do the same thing and post about 1000 links, but unlike you, I am sticking to the subject...not re-posting random studies about bananas enhancing potassium absoprtion or how insulin can cause the liver to store fat...and how insulin slows the fat burning process.  Do you not understand how basic this shit is?  Do you really think even the moderately educated member on this board doesn't know that?  Why in the FUCK do you think BB'rs use insulin?  Because insulin enhances the absorption of everything, including aminos acids, blood sugar, and even "potassium"...LOL.  Since you want to post a link about how insulin increases the absorption of potassium...let's take that a step further and talk about how to manipulate insulin's nutrient shuttling capabilities, so that we can maximize insulin's pro-BB'ing effects, such as protein syntheis and glycogen restoration..and if you want to go a step further, let's talk about the specific foods/drugs/supps which will best accomplaish these goals...and WHY they are the best.  

It is also a well known and BASIC fact in the BB'ing world that insulin impairs fat loss, which is why insulin use is often either dramatically cut down pre-contest or eliminated altogether.  So, instead of posting a link which tells us that insulin impairs fat loss (no shit)...let's go deeper and discuss EXACTLY how insulin accomplishes this...and going even further, let's talk about how to manipulate insulin's negative effect on lipolysis, so that we can maximize the benefits of insulin, while minimizing this potential aspect of its use.  

Since you want to post a random link about fatty livers, let's take that a step further and talk about the underlying cause, as well as the most pressing side effect a non-diabetic insulin user faces...insulin resistance.  We can discuss all the numerous variables involved in minimizing insulin resistance/maximizing insulin sensitivity, while simultaneously extracting maximum benefit from our insulin usage.

Seriously, stop wasting my and everyone elses time.  You have NOTHING to offer here.  You could not even begin to tell anyone how to best use insulin to further their goals...nor do you know how to best maintain an inulsin user's health from either an acute or long-term standpoint.  So, cut the crap, swallow damaged your pride...and move along.  On the other hand, if you really do have something to offer in any of these areas...let's go at it and see what you got.  It would be a BIG mistake on your part, as you have already showcased on high degree of ignorance in more than one basic area, but if you prefer a bloodbath, just select any of the previously mentioned topics and that will be fine by me.

Almost forgot...the bolded comments above (in your post) are mine as well, but as I continued reading throughout your post, I had to stop myself before pulling my hair out from exasperation.


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 6, 2013)

I will chime in here: Mike's advice mirrored that of my trainers - both are experienced insulin users. 

Starting with 4iu, I have worked up to 15ius humalog, and with a few small adaptions to Mikes protocol (related to humalog vs humalin-R) found the protocol safe and highly effective.

Pre-preparation of all meals, and emergency stashes of sugar in car-home-work-gym bag are common sense, but humalog is short-lived and fast-acting - I never felt endangered, however I was damn sure I didn't place myself at risk either.

Insulin will be part of future cycles - it makes a huge difference to training.

Stay safe!


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 6, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> I will chime in here: Mike's advice mirrored that of my trainers - both are experienced insulin users.
> 
> Starting with 4iu, I have worked up to 15ius humalog, and with a few small adaptions to Mikes protocol (related to humalog vs humalin-R) found the protocol safe and highly effective.
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting.  I am glad things have been going well for you.


----------



## BlueJayMuscle (Feb 6, 2013)

there is a WEALTH of information in this thread. VERY valuable. I think it should be stickied even. 

Everything mikes saying is most certainly true. I learned this in one of the top research university in America's labs and advanced biochemistry lectures.


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 6, 2013)

Stickied it is


----------



## president (Feb 6, 2013)

Almost a week into the 15iu preworkout protocol. I've gained about 3 or 4 pounds, but im noticing im holding alot of water. No real noticeable fat gains. Also, I dont know if its from the slin but I get very hungry in the 6 or 7 hours after my shot.


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 6, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> I just don't have the time to sit here and argue with someone who doesn't even understand the basics of insulin use for BB'rs...and especially someone who thinls protein cannot be used like carbs.  If you had any clue what you were taking about...you would know this.  No, youcan NOT a eat a steak or a chicken breast and count it as a carb, but you sure as fuck can count hydrolyzed whey, casein, beef, or even soy protein as such.  In fact, BB'rs have known this for decades (where have you been???).  Many years ago myself and several clients experimented with an insulin program which utilized ONLY protein...and the doses of slin used were not small.  I wonder how we all lived?  Anyway, the point of this set-up was to take advantage of insulin's tissue building effects without experiencing any fat gain, which can sometimes accompany insulin usage.  The program was successful, but for various reasons, I no longer feel that approach is the best way to go, regardless of one's goals.
> 
> Without getting into great detail, the program entailed using insulin 5-6X per day with a long with a protein shake made up of whey isolate (hydrolyzed protens weren't widely available at the time, although they would have been superior).  This was a 4 week program.  While we had to be more careful because we were using isolates instead of the more rapidly digesting hydrolysates, it was still doable.  We would inject 6 IU of humalog 5-6X per day, with 50 grams of whey isolate each time.  Hypogycemia was not an issue.  Why?  Because insulin transports both carbs and protein into muscle, which in turn uses up the insulin which was injected.  The reason we can't use standard proteins for this purpose, such as steak or eggs, without going hypo, is because they are digested and assimilated very slowly.  This is not so with hydrolyzed proteins, which will rapidly and efficiently raise both blood sugar and blood amino acid levels.  Whey protein, especially hydrolyzed whey protein, is insulinogenic...which means insulin is secreted in response to its ingestion.  Why?  Because its very rapid digestion rate results in a quick spike in blood sugar and amino acid concentration.  Every study ever done on this confirms it.  If whey protein did not have this effect, insulin would not be released in response to its ingestion and it would not be labeled as an insulinogenic protein.  This is why hydrolyzed why protein can be used in place of carbs, although for optimal muscle building effect, the inclusion of carbs is essential.
> 
> ...


if an 18yo came on here talking about running tren and getting puffy nipples everyone would jump his shit. But its okay to advise on a substances as deadly as insulin without advising on how to protect yourself from sides.

 if you knew you didnt know shit about insulin you'd know something, you clearly dont know shit. and the fact that I  was adding real facts and not trying to argue with you or poiting you out in particular but warn others that there is no advice on how to safely use it shows that you cant even acknowledge that maybe you could learn something.



Here it is as simple as it gets. Take all the food and supps you want for bodybuilding and that is fine but insulin binds to glucose, that is all. Carbs turn to glucose within 2 hours of eating them, insulin binds with glucose, your vital organs absord the insulin glucose combo, the rest turns to fat
sugar + insulin
carbs = sugar
read it over and over again till you start to understand it, its very simple.


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 6, 2013)

guys seriously make sure you understand what it does in your body first before experimenting with it. There are easy ways to prepare yourself and avoid dangers.

Bodybuilders and insulin - Los Angeles Times


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 6, 2013)

heres a good post on how to use insulin
Insulin...The Most Anabolic Hormone Part 1 and 2


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 6, 2013)

bro your body can convert aminos into glucose..


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 7, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> bro your body can convert aminos into glucose..


glucose aminos and insulin combine they dont convert, where did you get that from? asking not arguing


----------



## dirtwarrior (Feb 7, 2013)

when it cleaves off the nitrogen it does


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 7, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> bro your body can convert aminos into glucose..




Thanks for posting this peice of info.  Even after you've done so, the dumbass still doesn't understand what you're trying to say (see his response above...LOL). It is getting hilarious to watch this guy argue and ramble about stuff he doesn't understand, then repeatedly get his ass handed to him over and over again.  LOL.  The kid doesn't understand that the body has the ability to convert amino acids into glucose.  He also doesn't understand that extremely fast digesting proteins, which dump loads of aminos into the bloodstream at once, can and will be converted to glucose when blood sugar gets low.  I supplied him with all the information he needed to confirm this fact, yet he ignored it and continued showacsing his ignorance.

So..for the last time, maybe this kid will finally understand that certain proteins CAN be substituded for carbs when using insulin.

In response to Heckler's previous post, in which he continues to say that I have not advised on how to protect oneself from sides, I will repeat myself again.  Apparently, he fails to understand (despite me now having said this to him numerous times), that the point on THIS thread was not inform the reader of the potential side effects of insulin use (I have written other indepth articles on that subject), but simply to provide a SAFE program which anyone can use to help achieve their goals.  I will point out to Heckler (again) that I said a "safe" program.  It is common sense that anyone who is considering insulin use should educate themselves thoroughly on the drug, so for him to suggest that I should have educated the reader on every health risk the user might face and how to prevent/minimize them, is not only outside the limited scope of this thread...it is fucking retarded.  So long as the reader is supplied with a program that eliminates the possibility of acute harm due to low blood sugar, it is at the discretion of the poster how much additional information he chooses to divulge in his posts.  Oddly, Heckler can't seem to understand that some threads are only posted for a singular purpose....and that this thread was never intended to be an all-encompassing encyclopedia on insulin use.  More so, he continues to insult the intelligence of the members...suggesting that they are too dense to realize their need for additional education on the drug.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 7, 2013)

heckler7 said:


> heres a good post on how to use insulin
> Insulin...The Most Anabolic Hormone Part 1 and 2



LOL.

First of all, nearly all of this 2 part article talks about insulin, in general.  Most of it is good info, although there are some erros.  As far as the program itself is concerned, which comes at the end of the article...it FUCKING SUCKS!  The program recommended here is FAR AND AWAY 10X better....and I could go into great depth explaining why...but you would be lost from the first senetence...because if you truly believe that the program laid out in that article is better than the one posted here, you are an idiot!  In fact, the program itself is structured *very* poorly.  It certainly will NOT result in maximum glycogen restoration or protein synthesis (which are the 2 primary goals a BB'r is trying to achieve with insulin usage).  I have posted the program below, which is highlighted in blue:


60-80 grams of a good quality protein powder. Whey protein is ideal. This is taken immediately after the injection. 

7 grams of simple carbohydrates (not fructose as it does not raise blood sugar quickly enough) per IU of insulin injected. Every 15-20 minutes after the first shot, take a few glucose tablets. This is will increase the amount of glucose available to your body for storage. 

200 mg of chromium picolinate (this is optional). 

200 mg of lipoic acid (this is optional). 

30 mg vanadyl sulfate (this is optional). 

2000 mg of hydroxy citric acid (this is optional). 

5-7 grams of creatine monohydrate. This is crucial. 

5-7 grams of glutamine powder. This is also crucial. 



I don't even know where to begin in explaining why someone would NOT want to follow this program.  First of all, YOU contradict yourself in recommending this program.  In a previous post, you say that someone using insulin should be consuming 15 grams of carbs per IU in order to be safe, but this program only recommends 7 gramns of carbs per IU, which is less thna  half of what "you" say is safe.  Secondly, regular whey protein, while acceptable in some programs, is certainly not ideal.  I recommend hydrolysates, as they are superior from a direct comparison standpoint, and in their ability to work in unison with the other elements of the program.  

As far as the carb recommendations go, no one (at least those who are educated on the subject) recommends simple carbs anymore...for multiple reasons.  Branched cyclic dextrins are far, far better than the old-school simple carb approach (dextrose was once very popular), as they are superior for maximizing glycogen restoration, hydrating the muscle cell, minimizing intestinal water retention, minimizing fat gain, minimzing sub-q water retention, and accelerating recovery.  They also possess a vacuum-like effect, helping to pull other nutrients (such as creatine, leucine, etc) along with it into the bloodstream at a faster rate.

Protein and carb content are the 2 most vital components of any insulin program.  If you cant get those right, the program is already in the dog house from an effectuveness standpoint, but that's not all.  The programs recommends taking some glucose tablets every 15-20 minutes to keep blood sugar elevated.  When a program is proplery structured in regards to nutrient timing and macro to slin ratios, that is completely unecessary.  Randomly tossing in glucose tablets "just in case" speaks to a lack of confidence regarding program set-up.

The author of the program also says that glutamine is "crucial", when is reality, it is has comparatively little value next to other amino acids/supplements.  We used to think that it was very beneficial to take additional glutamine, based on the fact that it is the most abundant amino acid in muscle tissue and is partially responsible for muscle hydration (volumization), but we now know that the body is able to produce very large amounts of glutamine on its own.  While deficient glutamine levels can impair growth and recovery, the amount of protein found in a typical BB'ing diet  pretty much eliminates the possibility of ever going into a glutamine deficient state.  This is not to say that dietary glutamine is wholly worthless, but it certainly is NOT crucial.  At best, it will supply only very mild benefits.

This program is also lacking in several improtant supplements/amino acids, some of which are essential to maximizing protein synthesis.  The program also recommends 3 different insulin sensitizers, all of which can be benefitial, but there are other inslin sensitizers that are significantly more effective than all 3 of them combined.  For insulin users, there are much better ways to maintain insulin sensitivity.

There is also no mention of optimal insulin timing...or a dozen other things.  Like I said, my post was only intended to supply a program...not cover insulin in general.


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 7, 2013)

president said:


> Almost a week into the 15iu preworkout protocol. I've gained about 3 or 4 pounds, but im noticing im holding alot of water. No real noticeable fat gains. Also, I dont know if its from the slin but I get very hungry in the 6 or 7 hours after my shot.



Yep, experience a lot of water, and all-day hunger. 12lbs in 4(?) weeks? Don't think I had much fat gains, but it's hard to tell until I drop all my water.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 7, 2013)

glad this is finally stickied.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 7, 2013)

i just did my first shot 10iu humalog pre-workout. started sipping my drink 5 minutes before the shot, and sipped it throughout my workout.


no issues with going hypo, intense pumps, great endurance and recovery between sets... all around awesome experience. this is gunna be a great cruise along with my 100/100 test E/tren E


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 7, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> Thanks for posting this peice of info.  Even after you've done so, the dumbass still doesn't understand what you're trying to say (see his response above...LOL). It is getting hilarious to watch this guy argue and ramble about stuff he doesn't understand, then repeatedly get his ass handed to him over and over again.  LOL.  The kid doesn't understand that the body has the ability to convert amino acids into glucose.  He also doesn't understand that extremely fast digesting proteins, which dump loads of aminos into the bloodstream at once, can and will be converted to glucose when blood sugar gets low.  I supplied him with all the information he needed to confirm this fact, yet he ignored it and continued showacsing his ignorance.
> 
> So..for the last time, maybe this kid will finally understand that certain proteins CAN be substituded for carbs when using insulin.
> 
> In response to Heckler's previous post, in which he continues to say that I have not advised on how to protect oneself from sides, I will repeat myself again.  Apparently, he fails to understand (despite me now having said this to him numerous times), that the point on THIS thread was not inform the reader of the potential side effects of insulin use (I have written other indepth articles on that subject), but simply to provide a SAFE program which anyone can use to help achieve their goals.  I will point out to Heckler (again) that I said a "safe" program.  It is common sense that anyone who is considering insulin use should educate themselves thoroughly on the drug, so for him to suggest that I should have educated the reader on every health risk the user might face and how to prevent/minimize them, is not only outside the limited scope of this thread...it is fucking retarded.  So long as the reader is supplied with a program that eliminates the possibility of acute harm due to low blood sugar, it is at the discretion of the poster how much additional information he chooses to divulge in his posts.  Oddly, Heckler can't seem to understand that some threads are only posted for a singular purpose....and that this thread was never intended to be an all-encompassing encyclopedia on insulin use.  More so, he continues to insult the intelligence of the members...suggesting that they are too dense to realize their need for additional education on the drug.


havent seen any facts yet, and yes the I'm a dumbass because I have type 1 daibetes and have been injecting myself 6x a day for years and read tons of literature on the subject, but some internet know it all unlocked the secret formula that doctors and scientist failed to discover in lifetimes of research.
I provided facts about how long insulin lasts in your body, facts straight from the manufacturer but I'm the idiot here. i provided a real answer to a question based on facts. What did you say again. and who is supposedly is making me look like a dumbass? All i see is a me providing facts and one guy melting from being exposed as in guy who wont open his eyes and learn something. Keep up the awesome bro-science, 100s of people who cant research are depending on your wisdom  


calm down, watch and learn

The Role of Insulin in the Human Body - YouTube

How Insulin Gets Glucose Into a Cell - YouTube


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 7, 2013)

guys are pretty accurate but not completely

Insulin Use and Bodybuilding - YouTube

Insulin Spike and Bodybuilding - YouTube


----------



## stfuandliftbtch (Feb 7, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> Thinking of adding this to the end of my blast.
> 
> Comments and suggestions from experienced users please.
> 
> Dickheads and n00bs will be negged




I would start it a week before your blast ends and run it through your cruise until your NEXT blast cycle(hopefully 4-6ish weeks later?). From readings you'll find a lot of people say "start at 1iu and add 1iu until blah blah blah.." You won't feel shit off even 4iu especially at your height/weight. You will be completely fine starting at 6iu(post workout) and working your way up to 10iu. I wouldn't go any higher due to it being your first slin cycle and effects will be very high at 10iu alone your first go through. 

All the bullshit 20 paragraph long essays on slin are ridiculous, this is all you need to do FIRST INSULIN CYCLE in my opinion:


day 1: Post workout 6iu w/ 60g of carbs+protein   (safe at 10carbs/iu)
day 2 7iu    70g carbs+pro
day 3: 8iu   80g carbs+pro
day 4: 9iu   90g carbs+pro
day 5:10iu   **(keep in account all 'days' are ONLY training days)**
day 6
.
.
.
.
. 
day 40?...
EVERY TRAINING DAY ONLY POST WORKOUT until your next blast


**YOU WILL FEEL SIDE EFFECTS FROM SLIN NO MATTER WHAT**
**YOU WILL NEEDS LOTS OF CARBS ON HAND 24/7 (GLUCOSE TABS BEST)**
**BLOOD GLUCOSE METER ONLY NECESSARY IF YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD AND CAN'T READ YOUR BODIES NATURAL SIGNS**
**HUMULIN-R(6HOURS) AVAILABLE WITHOUT PRESCRIPTION AT ANY PHARMACY(laws vary per state)**
**10G CARBS PER IU IMMEDIATELY AFTER PIN AND EVERY HOUR UNTIL WHATEVER TYPE OF INSULIN YOU CHOSE IS CLEAR**
**GATORADE GATORADE GATORADE**


Don't fuck with slin pre-workout or AM until you have ran a few cycles. Get to know your body first for a month or so and then start looking in to alternate/additional ways to pin.

I personally like slin pre workout, but you have to drink a fuckload of carbs DURING your workout. By far the most bulky/pumped look on slin. Unless you are under 10-12% bdft, slin will make you look 'puffy', aka it is working.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 7, 2013)

You are well late to this party mate.

But you reiterated an important point - start low to see how your body reacts.

Standard Donkey missed that point and took a dumb risk. I'm glad he's ok


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 8, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> You are well late to this party mate.
> 
> But you reiterated an important point - start low to see how your body reacts.
> 
> Standard Donkey missed that point and took a dumb risk. I'm glad he's ok





i dont see how it was a dumb risk.. i followed a very thorough and calculated plan given to me by my IFBB pro trainer.. 

i feel great currently, about to go hit another 10iu then train legs. I have tons of glucose tabs on me wherever i go and i pay VERY close attention to how i feel. i am VERY in tune with my own body


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 8, 2013)

strength and endurance are definitely up. insane pumps and vascularity in my legs, no hypo symptoms



last pin of test prop and tren ace was tuesday, and i stopped taking halo and winstrol on wednesday. 



just cruising on 100/100 now with 10iu humalog pre-workout, and it's going great


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 8, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> i dont see how it was a dumb risk.. i followed a very thorough and calculated plan given to me by my IFBB pro trainer..
> 
> i feel great currently, about to go hit another 10iu then train legs. I have tons of glucose tabs on me wherever i go and i pay VERY close attention to how i feel. i am VERY in tune with my own body



IFBB pro can't tell you how your body will react. Anywho, glad it's all going to plan.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 8, 2013)

heckler7 said:


> havent seen any facts yet
> *Let it go...you're making yourself look extremely stupid right now.
> *
> , and yes the I'm a dumbass because I have type 1 daibetes and have been injecting myself 6x a day for years and read tons of literature on the subject, but some internet know it all unlocked the secret formula that doctors and scientist failed to discover in lifetimes of research.
> ...





*Kid, please take the time to realize how little you know.  All these random, non-related links you're posting are making me laugh and again...you are WAY off topic.  *


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 8, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> IFBB pro can't tell you how your body will react. Anywho, glad it's all going to plan.




true.. fair enough, i suppose i jumped the gun. im glad things turned out alright


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 8, 2013)

heckler7 said:


> guys are pretty accurate but not completely
> 
> 
> Insulin Spike and Bodybuilding - YouTube



Hilarious....read below.

Hhahahahahahah!  You see that big guy standing there, with the small guy shaking his hand (the small guy is teaching us how to use insulin in the video)?  Well get this.  The little guy on the right (our right) is skaking the hand of top autralian BB'r Gary Wright.  I bet you your ass this little guy worships Gary's nuts and would take his advice on insulin in a heart beat...but guess what...Gary is my client, who is preparing to win his pro card in 4 weeks...and guess where Gary gets his insulin programs?  Tha't's right...yours truly!  In fact, Gary's entire PED program and diet has been designed by me for the last 2 years.    

LOL...it looks like your continuous posting of random links finally bit you in the ass.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 8, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> Hilarious....read below.
> 
> Hhahahahahahah!  You see that big guy standing there, with the small guy shaking his hand (the small guy is teaching us how to use insulin in the video)?  Well get this.  The little guy on the right (our right) is skaking the hand of top autralian BB'r Gary Wright.  I bet you your ass this little guy worships Gary's nuts and would take his advice on insulin in a heart beat...but guess what...Gary is my client, who is preparing to win his pro card in 4 weeks...and guess where Gary gets his insulin programs?  Tha't's right...yours truly!  In fact, Gary's entire PED program and diet has been designed by me for the last 2 years.
> 
> LOL...it looks like your continuous posting of random links finally bit you in the ass.





thought that was flex lewis


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 8, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> thought that was flex lewis



LOLl...my bad...it may be...Gary looks almost exactly like him in that still frame.  When I heard the accent, I assumed it was Gary...better delete that post ina  huryy...LOL.  Just kidding.  Regardless, the point is still relevant, in that I have no doubt the little guy would take any piece of advice he gave him on insulin use, yet this same guy is teaching about how to use insulin on video (I didn't bother to listen to it, so I can't say if it is any good).  Most of these pros have coaches, yet many people go to them for drugs advice all the time (some pros know much more than others).  It is the same with Both Gary and Flex...both have coaches.  Gary was recently ay an expo in Aus and on the cover of Muscle Mag (Ausy adition), so I thought it was him, incorrectly I might add.  Thanks for pointing it out before I said anything else.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 8, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> LOLl...my bad...it may be...Gary looks almost exactly like him in that still frame.  When I heard the accent, I assumed it was Gary...better delete that post ina  huryy...LOL.  Just kidding.  Regardless, the point is still relevant, in that I have no doubt the little guy would take any piece of advice he gave him on insulin use, yet this same guy is teaching about how to use insulin on video (I didn't bother to listen to it, so I can't say if it is any good).  Most of these pros have coaches, yet many people go to them for drugs advice (some pros know much more than others).  It is the same with Both Gary and Flex...both have coaches.  gary was rcently ay an expo in Ais and on the cover of muscle mf (Ausy adition), so I thought it was him, incorrectly I might add.





they do look a lot alike




anyways, would testing my RGB levels be a good way to determine how long i can stay on slin before going desentized? naturally id like to stay on as long as i can, but im concerned about becoming resistant so i was planning on keeping it to 4 weeks on/4 weeks off


----------



## pieguy (Feb 8, 2013)

I was like wtf... That's Flex Lewis /confused 

And then i proceeded to google gary wright.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 8, 2013)

pieguy said:


> I was like wtf... That's Flex Lewis /confused
> 
> And then i proceeded to google gary wright.




*Yeah, I am glad he pointed that out before I went any farther with it.
*


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 8, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> they do look a lot alike
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you're interested in being able to use insulin for as long as possible without damaging your insulin sensitivity, there are a few effective ways to do it.  I don't have the time to go over it right now, but I will when I get back.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 8, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> If you're interested in being able to use insulin for as long as possible without damaging your insulin sensitivity, there are a few effective ways to do it.  I don't have the time to go over it right now, but I will when I get back.




yes! thank you sir!


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 8, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> Hilarious....read below.
> 
> Hhahahahahahah!  You see that big guy standing there, with the small guy shaking his hand (the small guy is teaching us how to use insulin in the video)?  Well get this.  The little guy on the right (our right) is skaking the hand of top autralian BB'r Gary Wright.  I bet you your ass this little guy worships Gary's nuts and would take his advice on insulin in a heart beat...but guess what...Gary is my client, who is preparing to win his pro card in 4 weeks...and guess where Gary gets his insulin programs?  Tha't's right...yours truly!  In fact, Gary's entire PED program and diet has been designed by me for the last 2 years.
> 
> LOL...it looks like your continuous posting of random links finally bit you in the ass.


Mike, all the info you stated I dont have any real conflict with, its just that it goes against everything doctors and Endos teach me. Altho I'm aware they can be wrong about alot things, the one fact I hold true is you watch your glucose level closely and take insulin to according to the blood glucose levels. If you really got these guys above to this level then I'm open ears man, what am I doing wrong? I exercise first and within an hour after my body would go hypo if I dont eat. I do a scoop of whey with BCAAs and add a bannana and some strawberries to keep my blood sugar up..


----------



## pieguy (Feb 8, 2013)

heckler7 said:


> Mike, all the info you stated I dont have any real conflict with, its just that it goes against everything doctors and Endos teach me. Altho I'm aware they can be wrong about alot things, the one fact I hold true is you watch your glucose level closely and take insulin to according to the blood glucose levels. If you really got these guys above to this level then I'm open ears man, what am I doing wrong? I exercise first and within an hour after my body would go hypo if I dont eat. I do a scoop of whey with BCAAs and add a bannana and some strawberries to keep my blood sugar up..



This may sound crazy to you, but most people on bodybuilding boards have already accepted this. Doctors are wrong, or uninformed, or incompetent, or are excessively conservative to avoid getting their ass sued off. There is no fucking way my doctor would encourage my AAS use and just recently, she told me 50mcg a day of T3 is extremely dangerous. We all know it isn't, but she tried to scare me buy citing an example of a guy's heart stopping due to Grave's Disease. 

So as you can see, stop treating it like everything your doctor says is completely correct and set in stone. If you're not intelligent enough to know how the chemicals you inject/ingest affect your body, maybe you shouldn't take them, or stop being a tool.


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 8, 2013)

pieguy said:


> This may sound crazy to you, but most people on bodybuilding boards have already accepted this. Doctors are wrong, or uninformed, or incompetent, or are excessively conservative to avoid getting their ass sued off. There is no fucking way my doctor would encourage my AAS use and just recently, she told me 50mcg a day of T3 is extremely dangerous. We all know it isn't, but she tried to scare me buy citing an example of a guy's heart stopping due to Grave's Disease.
> 
> So as you can see, stop treating it like everything your doctor says is completely correct and set in stone. If you're not intelligent enough to know how the chemicals you inject/ingest affect your body, maybe you shouldn't take them, or stop being a tool.


I would pay a million pesos to quit taking insulin, but I would die. I'll keep being a tool and take my prescibed meds.


----------



## pieguy (Feb 8, 2013)

Yeah you're obviously not getting the point if that's what you inferred from my post. But whatever. Not going to waste more time trying to explain.


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 8, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> If you're interested in being able to use insulin for as long as possible without damaging your insulin sensitivity, there are a few effective ways to do it.  I don't have the time to go over it right now, but I will when I get back.



I was looking at month on month off as well. Subbed for further education Mike


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 9, 2013)

pinned 11iu's this morning before chest/shoulders/triceps



insane pumps, endurance, and good strength. pretty certain all the extra gear (over my cruise) has left my body now). still no symptoms of hypo at all... really liking this humalog


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 9, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> If you're interested in being able to use insulin for as long as possible without damaging your insulin sensitivity, there are a few effective ways to do it.  I don't have the time to go over it right now, but I will when I get back.


I was told by my doctors that using insulin past its expiration or if it was exposed to heat and sunlight which will make it ineffective will cause insulin resistance, my endo freaked out when I told her a bottle of lantus lasted me 3 months. Its good for a month once opened.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 9, 2013)

how long does humalog stay good for after it's opened if kept in the fridge and only taken out for like 10 seconds each use?


----------



## AlphaMaleDawg (Feb 9, 2013)

heckler7 said:


> Mike, all the info you stated I dont have any real conflict with, its just that it goes against everything doctors and Endos teach me. Altho I'm aware they can be wrong about alot things, the one fact I hold true is you watch your glucose level closely and take insulin to according to the blood glucose levels. If you really got these guys above to this level then I'm open ears man, what am I doing wrong? I exercise first and within an hour after my body would go hypo if I dont eat. I do a scoop of whey with BCAAs and add a bannana and some strawberries to keep my blood sugar up..



If you think doctors know anything about bodybuilding or health when it comes to PEDs, you are terribly mistaken. They know absolutely nothing and will make you think death is imminent.


----------



## AlphaMaleDawg (Feb 9, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> how long does humalog stay good for after it's opened if kept in the fridge and only taken out for like 10 seconds each use?



about 6 months or so


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 9, 2013)

AlphaMaleDawg said:


> If you think doctors know anything about bodybuilding or health when it comes to PEDs, you are terribly mistaken. They know absolutely nothing and will make you think death is imminent.




this is so true lol.. when i asked my doctor if she would be as concerned about an alcoholic chain-smoker she said "no not at all"


keep in mind they think we also reuse needles and share them


----------



## The Prototype (Feb 9, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> fair enough..
> 
> -as for diet and training.. ive hired shelby for the past 16 weeks, and also have him and john meadows for the next year (i have a 13 week transformation thread in open chat)
> 
> ...



In this post you say 4+ years but later mention you are starting this week. Which is it?


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 9, 2013)

rippedgolfer said:


> In this post you say 4+ years but later mention you are starting this week. Which is it?



If you're following the thread you'd know he's already started.

Look, I want to keep this thread clean. Info and feedback for members interested in using insulin.

Take any bitching and shit slinging elsewhere please.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 9, 2013)

rippedgolfer said:


> In this post you say 4+ years but later mention you are starting this week. Which is it?




i changed my mind 


figured that would be obvious?


----------



## AlphaMaleDawg (Feb 9, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> this is so true lol.. when i asked my doctor if she would be as concerned about an alcoholic chain-smoker she said "no not at all"
> 
> 
> keep in mind they think we also reuse needles and share them



Truth. I had an absolutely horrible experience at the doctor before, and had to switch doctors to find one who won't judge and lecture. You can't lecture someone who knows 10000x more on the topic.


----------



## The Prototype (Feb 9, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> If you're following the thread you'd know he's already started.
> 
> Look, I want to keep this thread clean. Info and feedback for members interested in using insulin.
> 
> Take any bitching and shit slinging elsewhere please.



Understood. Just giving him a hard time. Good luck SD!


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 9, 2013)

AlphaMaleDawg said:


> Truth. I had an absolutely horrible experience at the doctor before, and had to switch doctors to find one who won't judge and lecture. You can't lecture someone who knows 10000x more on the topic.



My doctor at least admitted he knows fk all, but he's happy to monitor my health without judging.


----------



## dieseljimmy (Feb 9, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> My doctor at least admitted he knows fk all, but he's happy to monitor my health without judging.



Same here...but my doctor is a hot mid thirties milf. She doesn't pretend to know and doesn't seem to care much. just makes sure my levels at on a scale she can relate to. I did bring up insulin to her once and she really didnt want to talk about it.  These guys have to worry about getting sued and I can't blame them.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 9, 2013)

dieseljimmy said:


> Same here...but my doctor is a hot mid thirties milf. She doesn't pretend to know and doesn't seem to care much. just makes sure my levels at on a scale she can relate to. I did bring up insulin to her once and she really didnt want to talk about it.  These guys have to worry about getting sued and I can't blame them.




you use slin right bro? what are your thoughts?


----------



## dieseljimmy (Feb 9, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> you use slin right bro? what are your thoughts?



I use it alot like I use orals. Six weeks here and there just to stir things up a little. I had the biggest single instance of growth when I was using hgh, igf and insulin using the mutants protocol several years ago. Stacked with a healthy course of androgens I went from being a big guy at the gym to being the guy that not many people want to talk to anymore. (Other then the other big guys asking what I was doing) I recomped from 280 at 22 percent to 258 at 11 percent.(I'm tall though)
i have taken insulin alone and think it is the single most important part of the mutant protocol.
but the reality of life kind snuck up on me. I had a friend die, I had a very scary motorcycle incident. I had a kid. And I realized being a pro or even a remarkable amature  bb'er was not a realistic thing. I dropped the higher risk activities and long term heavy insulin use was one of them.  I still use it but not often with moderate doses and not for very long


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 9, 2013)

dieseljimmy said:


> I use it alot like I use orals. Six weeks here and there just to stir things up a little. I had the biggest single instance of growth when I was using hgh, igf and insulin using the mutants protocol several years ago. Stacked with a healthy course of androgens I went from being a big guy at the gym to being the guy that not many people want to talk to anymore. (Other then the other big guys asking what I was doing) I recomped from 280 at 22 percent to 258 at 11 percent.(I'm tall though)
> i have taken insulin alone and think it is the single most important part of the mutant protocol.
> but the reality of life kind snuck up on me. I had a friend die, I had a very scary motorcycle incident. I had a kid. And I realized being a pro or even a remarkable amature  bb'er was not a realistic thing. I dropped the higher risk activities and long term heavy insulin use was one of them.  I still use it but not often with moderate doses and not for very long




what was your dosing protocol like before all that stuff happened? (sorry about your loss btw)


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 9, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> how long does humalog stay good for after it's opened if kept in the fridge and only taken out for like 10 seconds each use?


its recommended to be thrown out after 28 days, I can validate that it goes bad in roughly 45 -60 days. I have experienced when my blood levels stopped staying controlled and I was taking more than normal doses but it wasnt working. Doctor thought it was a bad batch but it turned out that I was using it too long. I replace mine at the first of each month its just easier that way.

I have been thru a few emergencies in my years, mostly from being overly confident that I was in control, and not following my diet strictly. Having low blood sugar is the scariest shit ever, once I was in shock and couldnt even speak to say help. I could barely reach the counter for a can of coke.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 10, 2013)

heckler7 said:


> its recommended to be thrown out after 28 days, I can validate that it goes bad in roughly 45 -60 days. I have experienced when my blood levels stopped staying controlled and I was taking more than normal doses but it wasnt working. Doctor thought it was a bad batch but it turned out that I was using it too long. I replace mine at the first of each month its just easier that way.
> 
> I have been thru a few emergencies in my years, mostly from being overly confident that I was in control, and not following my diet strictly. Having low blood sugar is the scariest shit ever, once I was in shock and couldnt even speak to say help. I could barely reach the counter for a can of coke.




i have seen a ton of opinions that disagree with this.. can Mike Arnold please chime in?



anyways, pinned 13iu today (big back day), also wanted to see what going hypo was like.. 


INSANE training session, everything went smooth, not problems with hypo



it began to hit as i was warming up my (pre-made of course) post w/o meal. So i popped a glucose tab which i keep in a ziploc baggy tucked into my waistbad of my shorts (4g sugars), waited for a bit.. still felt a little dizzy and unstable so i popped another one.


i would have just eaten my meal then, but im supposed to wait until an hour after my workout it over.. the glucose tabs worked very nicely. 




boy that was a real crisis


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 10, 2013)

My slin has an expiry date. That's when it's time to throw out, like in 6 months. It'll be gone by then.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 11, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> I was looking at month on month off as well. Subbed for further education Mike



The two biggest factors used in determining whether or not insulin sensitivity is maintained is how frequently insulin is used, as well as what type of insulin is used.  In other words, total time of activity is what matters.  

With that in mind, obviously, Humalog would be ideal for this purpose.  How many times per week humalog can be used without having any significant effect on insulin sensitvity will be determined by whether or not any insulin sensitizers are used along with it (along with factors such as diet & exercise).  

As a general rule of thumb, Humalog can be used about 5X weekly, while having only a minor impact on insulin sensitivity.  By combining it with Glucophage 4-5X per week at 1,000-1,500 mg/day (500-750 mg AM/ 500-750 mg PM), it is easily maintained in full.  One could even make improvments to their insulin sensitivity while using Humalog 5X per week, to a large degree, if the individual is comprehensive in their approach; most users will not be.  For example, there are numerous drugs/supps/steps one can take to improve insulin sensitivity and when they are all combined, the improvements can be dramatic.  In addition to Glucophage (which is a potent prescription sensitizer and very effective even when used alone), supps such as ALA, D-chiro-inositol, Cinnamon, Chromium picolinate, Vandyl sulfate, Acetic acid (can be found in apple cider vinegar), and fish oil can all improve insulin sensitivity.  Of course, some are more effectuve than others, but the point is that a combined approach is far superior for those individuals seeking maximum effects.

The greater one's total exposure time to insulin, the more important it is for them to take these steps and begin combining different products.  Those who abuse inulsin or whose use borders on abuse, are certainly going to want to take preventative/corrrectuve action more seriously. In addition to the above products, our diet plays a massive role in our level of insulin sensitivity. This can be a Catch-22 situation for a serious BB'r, as most BB'rs concume a very large amount of carbs on a regular basis, relative to the average person.  This has a strong, negative effect on sensitivity...especially when a considerable portion of one's diet is made up of refined, processed, and/or simple carbs.  Trying to tell the typical BB'r to cut back his carb intake is like telling him to stop making progress, as a reduction in carbs and/or overall calories can impair mass gains.  Some steps a BB'r can take without harming his progress...and will likely even improve his progress (as well as overall heath) is to consume simple, processed, refined carbs only when they serve a specific purpose. 

As an example, an ideal time to utilize processed carbs would be during the training window, when something like branched chain cyclic dextrins are very beneficial for enhancing glycogen storage and overall recovery, but at other times of the day a BB'r is better off consuming whole-grain, slower digesting carbs for his primnary energy source.  While fruit may not fit this profile, it shold never be neglected, as it does not have the same effect on the body as a refined or processed carbs would.

Another manner in which we can manipulate our diet in order to improve insulin sensitivity without impairing our growth rate is to have one "low-carb" day per week.  Because it is only once per week, muscle growth will not suffer (assuming overall caloric intake is maintained) and may even have a positive effect on growth, as it prevents the body from completely adapting to the excessive carb intake it is exposed to throughout the rest of the week.  This principle is very similar to using cheat days when dieting.  By having a "cheat day" while dieting, in which we consume extra cals & carbs, the body's metabolic rate is stimulated and therefore, it does not adapt as quickly or as completely to the lower caloric intake, ultimately leading to less plateaus and more rapid fat loss.  In the same way, having a once weekly lower-carb day has similar effects on the body, allowing it to respond more positively to the high carb intake throughout the rest of the week.

Of course, exercise also has a strong influence on insulin sensitivity, with each workout having an immediate and measurable impact.  Most BB'rs workout regularly, so they are already taking advantage of this benefit, but many BB'rs do not perform cardiovascular exercise, which also has a direct effect on insulin sensitivity.  As you can see, there is much we can do to maintain/improve or body's ability to metabolise glucose.  How serious we are about taking these steps will determine what type of results one achieves.  I would hypothesize that if one implemented all these measures proplerly, he would be able to use Humalog at least 10X per week with minimal effect on his insulin sensitivity.   I have now had 3 clients implement almost all of these measures at once, while injecting insulin (Humalog & Humulin, at different times) an average of almost 2X daily, and based on their blood glucose tolerance tests, their insulin sensitivity was well maintained, despite the fact they had been following the program for several months.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 11, 2013)

heckler7 said:


> I was told by my doctors that using insulin past its expiration or if it was exposed to heat and sunlight which will make it ineffective will cause insulin resistance, my endo freaked out when I told her a bottle of lantus lasted me 3 months. Its good for a month once opened.



This only applies to Lantus.  Lantus becomes unpredictable/unstable about 4 weeks after opening and should not be used beyond that time frame for this reason.  However, other insulins can be used for many months fater opeing, assuming the are kept refrigerated.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 11, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> this is so true lol.. when i asked my doctor if she would be as concerned about an alcoholic chain-smoker she said "no not at all"
> 
> 
> keep in mind they think we also reuse needles and share them




LOL...I can't believe the ignorance when I hear stuff like that.


----------



## dieseljimmy (Feb 11, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> what was your dosing protocol like before all that stuff happened? (sorry about your loss btw)



Its was 10 iu hgh 30 min post workout(I lifted four times a week and this was the only hgh taken, also generic china hgh that I later got a serum test done and I was at 9.4, so it was underdosed, maybe closer to 4-5-6iu in practical application)

15 iu "r" 10 min pwo with a carb/creatine/bcaa/ preworkout powder

Same shake no preworkout during the workout

100 igf lr3 after workout...

egg white, oats, fruit in a blender. I later added ON hydro whey.


I also popped 5 iu insulin r in the morning with breakfast.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 11, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> The two biggest factors used in determining whether or not insulin sensitivity is maintained is how frequently insulin is used, as well as what type of insulin is used.  In other words, total time of activity is what matters.
> 
> With that in mind, obviously, Humalog would be ideal for this purpose.  How many times per week humalog can be used without having any significant effect on insulin sensitvity will be determined by whether or not any insulin sensitizers are used along with it (along with factors such as diet & exercise).
> 
> ...





sweet thank you Mike Arnold!


i will definitely be looking into these for my next run. im only using humalog about 5x a week this run, but am already thinking ahead to my next run (after a 4 week break during which i will up my sensitivity again, and probably try to get really lean again). I am considering running it not only pre-workout, but periworkout as you suggested and/or perhaps with breakfast.

thank you very much, any advice or input you have is greatly welcomed and received


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 11, 2013)

Mike, for the protocol you laid out, do you drink the shakes immediately? I.E. "chug" them, as it were? or sip them? also do you shoot humalg IM or Sub Q?



i think ill try out your protocol once i get an answer, i looked all around PM for an answer and couldnt find one


----------



## "TheFuture" (Feb 12, 2013)

Lots of great info here.. Love reading threads like this! Thanks for the logs fellas.


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 12, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> Mike, for the protocol you laid out, do you drink the shakes immediately? I.E. "chug" them, as it were? or sip them? also do you shoot humalg IM or Sub Q?



I got advised that IM activates more quickly, and has a shorter active life. Haven't tried it though.


----------



## Mike Arnold (Feb 12, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> Mike, for the protocol you laid out, do you drink the shakes immediately? I.E. "chug" them, as it were? or sip them? also do you shoot humalg IM or Sub Q?
> 
> 
> 
> i think ill try out your protocol once i get an answer, i looked all around PM for an answer and couldnt find one



I would drink the 1st one right down, as you need to get some nutrienst in your bloodstream right away.  You could sip the 2nd shake if you wanted to, but doing so it doesn't serve much purpose, as your body will already be flooded with a constant supply of nutrients when drinking each shake every 60 minutes or so.

Sub-q is better than I.M., as both result in the same effects (aside from onset of action), but sub-q does not causew scar tissue within the muscle.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 12, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> I would drink the 1st one right down, as you need to get some nutrienst in your bloodstream right away.  You could sip the 2nd shake if you wanted to, but doing so it doesn't serve much purpose, as your body will already be flooded with a constant supply of nutrients when drinking each shake every 60 minutes or so.
> 
> Sub-q is better than I.M., as both result in the same effects (aside from onset of action), but sub-q does not causew scar tissue within the muscle.






awesome thank you! I have some metformin on the way for my next run.


i can test my fasted blood glucose with my glucometer in order to get an idea of where my insulin sensitivity stands right? i do this my feeding the machine some blood first thing after i wake up?


----------



## The Prototype (Feb 12, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> awesome thank you! I have some metformin on the way for my next run.
> 
> 
> i can test my fasted blood glucose with my glucometer in order to get an idea of where my insulin sensitivity stands right? i do this my feeding the machine some blood first thing after i wake up?



What does metformin do for you? I have a script for it but I don't take it. I've read people using it for BB'ing but I just assumed it would be like taking insulin injections.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 12, 2013)

my supplier gives me the option of buying a 10ml 100iu/ml vial or three 5ml 100iu cartridges..


im thinking next time ill get the cartridges so they will have a longer shelf life since ill only be opening one at a time.. does this sound prudent?


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 12, 2013)

just did my blood glucose 45 minutes after eating 45g protein 40g carbs and 15g fats (wanted to make sure i know how to use the machine) blood glucose was 91, which i think is pretty darn good considering i had recently eaten.. not sure though. taking my fasted blood glucose first thing tommorrow morning



in theory, if i were to keep my fasted blood glucose within a certain range, i would be able to use insulin for an extended period of time right?


----------



## "TheFuture" (Feb 12, 2013)

So after reading through every post on this thread.. I am still a bit confused on one thing, or maybe this may not make a huge difference.

Would it be better or more plausible to run insulin along side a cycle/blast or run it during a cruise where AAS intake would be lower? Would running it during a cruise like SD has done increase insulin sensitivity? Or could one run it during a cycle, and run a lower dose of AAS vs a moderate to high dose of AAS + Insulin?

Seems people have ran it multiple ways. Didn't know what the best approach or protocol may be.


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 12, 2013)

"TheFuture" said:


> So after reading through every post on this thread.. I am still a bit confused on one thing, or maybe this may not make a huge difference.
> 
> Would it be better or more plausible to run insulin along side a cycle/blast or run it during a cruise where AAS intake would be lower? Would running it during a cruise like SD has done increase insulin sensitivity? Or could one run it during a cycle, and run a lower dose of AAS vs a moderate to high dose of AAS + Insulin?
> 
> Seems people have ran it multiple ways. Didn't know what the best approach or protocol may be.





im running it 4 on/4 off


im going to be running 12 week blasts, and 4 week cruises. Im going to use the insulin during my cruises to help me maintain gains from the blasts/make new gains.


the slin use will intersect with my blast from the 5th-8th week and then cease until my cruise and repeat.. i feel this way is good to maintain sensitivity while making steady progress without putting undue stress on my body. 


*1-4 aas no slin*, 5-8 aas (up dose) +slin,* 9-12 aas (up dose) no slin*, 13-16 cruise on 100/100 tren E test E + slin (*repeat*)


----------



## "TheFuture" (Feb 12, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> im running it 4 on/4 off
> 
> 
> im going to be running 12 week blasts, and 4 week cruises. Im going to use the insulin during my cruises to help me maintain gains from the blasts/make new gains.
> ...




Hmmm, that makes sense. I kind of like that 4wk on 4wk off approach. 
So your running slin during your blast (in the middle) as well as during your cruise. You stated that you ("up dose")..meaning you are upping your AAS dosage throughout your blast? Is there a specific reason to doing this, does it aide in helping with slin sensitivity at all?
I have done this in past blasts/cycles with AAS only but didn't feel it really did much or make a difference for me. Maybe it makes a difference with long vs short esters?...


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 12, 2013)

"TheFuture" said:


> Hmmm, that makes sense. I kind of like that 4wk on 4wk off approach.
> So your running slin during your blast (in the middle) as well as during your cruise. You stated that you ("up dose")..meaning you are upping your AAS dosage throughout your blast? Is there a specific reason to doing this, does it aide in helping with slin sensitivity at all?
> I have done this in past blasts/cycles with AAS only but didn't feel it really did much or make a difference for me. Maybe it makes a difference with long vs short esters?...





yes i will up the dose of AAS during my blast, probably during the 6 week period for myostatin purposes.. the layout is still in its infancy stages and has a lot of tweaking to be done... but slin during cruise and sometime during blast is the basic structure



i still have a lot of questions for Mike Arnold. Im doing a lot of research over at PM about insulin


----------



## cottonmouth (Feb 12, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> *1-4 aas no slin*, 5-8 aas (up dose) +slin,* 9-12 aas (up dose) no slin*, 13-16 cruise on 100/100 tren E test E + slin (*repeat*)




I think that looks good,,To me anyway, it makes a lot of sense.    Good way of keeping the gains coming, and keeping them,.


----------



## theCaptn' (Feb 12, 2013)

cottonmouth said:


> I think that looks good,,To me anyway, it makes a lot of sense.    Good way of keeping the gains coming, and keeping them,.



I like the layout too.


----------



## BlueJayMuscle (Feb 13, 2013)

considering throwing slin into my contest prep for 4 weeks at 10-6 weeks out at 10iu preworkout with mike Arnold's suggested shakes to put on some more muscle while shredding down. Really want to be top of the weight class. 

Thoughts on this?


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 13, 2013)

took my fasted blood glucose this morning.. nothing like your glucometer stabbing u first thing in the morning as a wake up call.. anyways, it was 68.


ran Mike Arnold's protocol (as best i could.. used peptopro + leucine + creatine + beta alanine + karbolyn... _*ihave a whey/casein hydro mix +glutamine peptides that is coming in today that i will be using for future sessions + glycerol etc..ironically cheaper than peptopro lmao..) t*_oday and all i can say is..


*HOLY SHIT!* haha that was fun! *INSANE *session.. word of advice - be ready for high volumes of fluids before and during your training.. almost felt a little nauseaous drinking all those shakes while wearing my belt (back day deadlift emphasis)



i used 16 iu's... would it be weird to use more?


definitely going to be sticking with 4 weeks on, 4 weeks off.. cant wait until my slin use intersects with my aas usage. am getting blood work taken this week to check my liver/lipids/rbc etc.. will likely donate blood to the waste bin


----------



## Standard Donkey (Feb 13, 2013)

i think im gunna cut the carbs out of my last meal (i eat 6 a day 45/40/15 p/c/f) of the day on training days just to stave off fat gain/insulin insensitivity as best i can.. goodbye ezekiel bread , but i believe it's for the best


----------



## heckler7 (Feb 17, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> This only applies to Lantus.  Lantus becomes unpredictable/unstable about 4 weeks after opening and should not be used beyond that time frame for this reason.  However, other insulins can be used for many months fater opeing, assuming the are kept refrigerated.


this is correct, I just read the boxes


----------



## AnabolicAmerica (Jul 28, 2013)

I'd like to try this some day as well. The guys I know that take it are fucking huge and always have big bags of candy on hand... I'd have to research the hell out of it before running.


----------



## Mr Persistent (Aug 31, 2013)

Does it have to be this humalog stuff? My guy has some pharma vails of slin fast and slow acting I want to use them I'm my next cycle of test and deca hmmm grey thread captn seems to have worked well for you, he advised me its better to use when bulking but he also said he's never ran it so he doesn't want to advise me how to take it so I have to do my research and hire somebody for my drug regemin. Also concerned about these shakes could I get good results using just bcaa some isolate whey and luceine in each shake and dextrose I know it's not optimal but will it work good?


----------



## SuperLift (Sep 4, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> also, the fatter you are, the fatter you'll get. Makes since, but idk if it's true or not


  This was the one thing I would be worried about, but I'm looking forward to seeing your progress!


----------



## complication (Sep 5, 2013)

I don't think I've been so excited.


----------



## vassille (Sep 9, 2013)

dirtwarrior said:


> when it cleaves off the nitrogen it does



yeap it sure shiet does, up to 40% of protein one eats can be converted to glucose. Hence why sometimes ppl may smell ammonia from their sweat from the process of protein being broken down to glucose for energy use.


----------



## malk (Sep 10, 2013)

ive been on humulog for 7 days ive been conservative with use but only this morn have I felt fuller and my
bf seems less, waist feels and looks smaller,does it take time to get the effects fully and how long on average.
Ive gained 4-5 pounds,also yesterday I pinned 10iu post then another 10iu 2 hours later with no sides what are
your thoughts on this..this is at 3xa week postw.


----------



## theCaptn' (Sep 10, 2013)

Sounds ok. Your slin meals are low fat? What's your weight/bf?


----------



## malk (Sep 10, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> Sounds ok. Your slin meals are low fat? What's your weight/bf?



not sure on bf tbh 15.5st , my meals are basically 50-60 grams glucose ,creatine and whey then another 25 mins
later oats mixed with cornflakes milk whey or egg whites..maybe some raisins/banana ect .
on the hour il repeat the second meal and an hour after that shoot another 10-12 iu,im not sure
if this is why I feel so full today or whether its just the last 7 days kicking in,the pumps in the
gym are only a little better than norm,nothing special, see how next week goes..
ive only just started some organon sus + a test 400(been cruising for a while on 300mg)
so might see more when these kick in too.


----------



## vassille (Sep 10, 2013)

malk said:


> not sure on bf tbh 15.5st , my meals are basically 50-60 grams glucose ,creatine and whey then another 25 mins
> later oats mixed with cornflakes milk whey or egg whites..maybe some raisins/banana ect .
> on the hour il repeat the second meal and an hour after that shoot another 10-12 iu,im not sure
> if this is why I feel so full today or whether its just the last 7 days kicking in,the pumps in the
> ...



I've experienced insulin resistance in the past and I felt flat no matter what I did. I did  insulin cycles and even though I gained some weight it wasnt what I expected even with addition of GH. 
After  months on a low carb diet looks like I snapped out of it and now I get normal pumps most of the day and massive ones when I workout and eat a nice big carb meal with no anabolics right now.


----------



## jacmo (Sep 11, 2013)

Try adding some glycerol mono stearate to your shakes. If ya don't believe me do a lil research on the stuff. 10-15 grams per shake with slin and you'll think you're gonna POP!


----------



## fenriswolf80 (Sep 11, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> All in all, every aspect of the program I listed is superior.  For those who are interested in including peptides such as GH, IGF-1, and MGF, I have included them below for reference:
> 
> 
> *45 minutespre-workout:   *15 IU Humulin R.
> ...



Is it possible to safely replace the final shake with one cup of oats and whey/egg whites?

After this last shake I would imagine there is still some residual exogenous insulin the body am I correct? How long after the last shake should a meal follow and what kind of macros are we talking about ideal for growth? Back to whatever normal meal macros we follow? Or something higher in carbs?


----------



## jacmo (Sep 12, 2013)

I've actually been lowering the carbs of my final shake. Down to 20g cyclic dextrins and 5g glucose. Thinking of playing with carbs of second shake as well. Couple of times I was unable to have third shake at all, just chicken and rice and I was fine. I try VERY HARD not to consume any fats for 5 hrs after pinning slin. I train late afternoon so my first "after" meal is around 8pm. I wanna add that I use a glucose meter RELIGIOUSLY, which allows me the luxury of dropping carbs lower while on slin. I absolutely know what is going on blood sugar wise throughout the active window. If ya can afford slin, protein, creatine, etc budget in a damn meter. Helps with your nerves as well.


----------



## fenriswolf80 (Sep 12, 2013)

jacmo said:


> I've actually been lowering the carbs of my final shake. Down to 20g cyclic dextrins and 5g glucose. Thinking of playing with carbs of second shake as well. Couple of times I was unable to have third shake at all, just chicken and rice and I was fine. I try VERY HARD not to consume any fats for 5 hrs after pinning slin. I train late afternoon so my first "after" meal is around 8pm. I wanna add that I use a glucose meter RELIGIOUSLY, which allows me the luxury of dropping carbs lower while on slin. I absolutely know what is going on blood sugar wise throughout the active window. If ya can afford slin, protein, creatine, etc budget in a damn meter. Helps with your nerves as well. 



Interesting! Yes, I'm definitely getting a glucometer before I start. When you say use it religiously what do you mean? How often do I need to be taking readings. And when will I be able to tell that I'm "good."

Do you see any issues replacing that final shake with oats and whey iso? I suppose the issue might be the fat content in the oats (3.6g)?


----------



## Standard Donkey (Sep 12, 2013)

the whole "no fat with insulin" is broscience...


----------



## theCaptn' (Sep 12, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> the whole "no fat with insulin" is broscience...



Interesting ... Some fat sources would be better over others then ... Say MCT or coconut oil.


----------



## fenriswolf80 (Sep 12, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> the whole "no fat with insulin" is broscience...



I've heard this a few times too. I'm interested in learning more on this point. I've read in the older sources of early bodybuilding use of exogenous insulin that dietary fat during the period where the insulin is active in the body is to be avoided at all cost. Then I've heard that there is no basis to make this claim either. So now I'm curious as to what the correct approach should be?


----------



## Standard Donkey (Sep 12, 2013)

fenriswolf80 said:


> I've heard this a few times too. I'm interested in learning more on this point. I've read in the older sources of early bodybuilding use of exogenous insulin that dietary fat during the period where the insulin is active in the body is to be avoided at all cost. Then I've heard that there is no basis to make this claim either. So now I'm curious as to what the correct approach should be?


the big guys who I know who use insulin consume fats with it..to slow the digestion of carbs and proteins.. I tried insulin with no fats and my diet and I shrunk (cuz it cut over 1000 calories from my diet) but tried to make up for it by adding an extra meal of protein and carbs...I somehow got fatter doing this.  my IFBB pro coach has me consume fats in all meals with insulin


----------



## theCaptn' (Sep 12, 2013)

That makes good sense - thanks for the info


----------



## malk (Sep 13, 2013)

guys,,so yesterday ide thought ide push the carb dosage down some,so I had an am shot of 5iu with no foodand felt fine, 
later had a pre workout meal ect went too gym,trained legs and halfway through started to get a bit fvcked up lol
so downed a high carb drink to finish off workout.I then had 12iu with aroung 60gms of carbs protein ect and chilled
out for a while when I got home...I went for a walk down the park for some cardio and started going a bit hypo again
so went back to house ate more food ect...could this still happen if I was insulin resistant is what I want too know?
as low sugar normally doesnt effect me like this...cheers. btw im up 8 pounds since last tues,and look a bit
leaner....fvck yeah.


----------



## theCaptn' (Sep 13, 2013)

Having slin without a meal is dangerous bro


----------



## malk (Sep 13, 2013)

theCaptn' said:


> Having slin without a meal is dangerous bro



yes it was a bit retarded lol.im doing the above pre workout today although in going for 7 ius,and
all the drinks....ive drop a nap and some dboe's for extra effect..
judging so far I think I need like 7-8 gram per iu.


----------



## fenriswolf80 (Sep 14, 2013)

This thread is such a wealth of information! I'm still reading and re-reading and learning as I go. Now, forgive me if its already been stated, but as far as the frequency of use: lets say I workout 4 x per week. I normally do legs, chest & shoulders, back, and arms. Arm day is comparatively easy next to say legs or back. Is there any danger or harm in using the full 15 IU even on arm day? Or should I use less based on the intensity of the workout? I don't plan on starting with 15 IU for any workout more like 5 IU to begin with, but I'm just trying to get a feel for the best policy in the future. Any opinions?


----------



## theCaptn' (Sep 14, 2013)

Use it based on experience, tolerance and diet. 15iu is high for a new user - for your 1st run 10-12iu is probably a good idea, start low as you mention and work your way up. That's my call, I'm a novice not an expert.


----------



## malk (Sep 14, 2013)

im stopping my slin I think 2 weeks at a time is enough for me maybe do 2on 2off...and next time
try on workout days only protocol post wo.its deffo made a diff in a short time, though il try and
get my sensitivity  up for the next go, plenty of low carb days coming up.


----------



## vassille (Oct 1, 2013)

Standard Donkey said:


> the whole "no fat with insulin" is broscience...



Im with you on this one. Im doing insulin daily on this cycle and I eat fat with my meals albeit I dont go crazy with it and I dont get fat at all. This insulin thing you just have to understand what is going on inside the body while taking it. Once you do it's a simple process. 
AS for the insulin cycle above...If im right this guy says to take slin 45min before workout then wait 25min before taking in 50g of carbs... that;s stretching it and there is no reason to wait that long. I wait 10min on a solid meal, eat and then both peak same time. Sound too dangerously close to being hypo to do 15IU slin wait 25min then have 50g of carbs. I would not do it like this too many things that can go wrong. When I took that much insulin at once I took in 100g of carbs right off the bat with it plus another 50g later on. 8-10ius of insulin is more than enough to get results. At 15iu's you better fuck in eat a lot of food. 

If you take too much insulin aka 15ius you have a good chance of geting fat and run a good chance of geting hypo with the slightest miscalculation. You better prick your finger every 15min for a good 2-3 hours.


----------



## vassille (Oct 1, 2013)

malk said:


> guys,,so yesterday ide thought ide push the carb dosage down some,so I had an am shot of 5iu with no foodand felt fine,
> later had a pre workout meal ect went too gym,trained legs and halfway through started to get a bit fvcked up lol
> so downed a high carb drink to finish off workout.I then had 12iu with aroung 60gms of carbs protein ect and chilled
> out for a while when I got home...I went for a walk down the park for some cardio and started going a bit hypo again
> ...



5ius is more than enough insulin to make you hypo. If you are insulin resistant you will tend to run a higher blood glucose when fasted and take you longer to process glucose. So it explains why that 5 ius didnt affect you that much because your blood glucose may have been high but the second time you took 12iu with 60g of carbs that's completely wrong bro. 
To be safe 1iu of insulin needs 8-10g of carbs. 12ius you shoud have consumed 100g of carbs or thereabout. You way underdosed your carbs and with the 5iu you took earlier it spells trouble. Im glad you ok there is no upside to take insulin without carbs only trouble.


----------



## HFO3 (Oct 1, 2013)

where's the progress pics


----------



## vassille (Oct 1, 2013)

Ok, since there are a lot of ppl interested in this thread I will post a simple insulin cycle and try to explain how exactely it works. 
Lets start with how insulin works. 

Basically there are 2 insulin responses in the body. One is when glucose is present in the blood stream from a meal the pancreas senses the glucose and releases insulin. Without a trigger insulin is not released in large quantities but secondly insulin is released in small quantities to keep the base glucose level around 90. 

Now let's pass on the basal insulin levels and concentrate on the larger release. Why take insulin? 

Well, insulin is like a key which attaches itself on the muscle cell receptor sending a signal inside the cell for a compound called GLUT-4 to come to the surface and take on glucose molecule. Once the glucose made it into the cell then there is an aerobic and anaerobic activitiy taking place. Aerobic means with oxygen present, anaerobic without oxygen. 
Why is this important...ATP!!!
What's ATP is basically the fuel that runs the cell. So for you to grow cell must produce ATP to fuel the protein synthesis machinery. Also, ATP is used by just about every cell in the body. 
So far so good. Well there is another wrinkle in this process....anaerobic activity doesnt make a whole lot of ATP at once but the speed at which it makes ATP is very great. On the other hand aerobic activity takes place in the mythocandria of the cell. THis process make I believe double the amount of ATP but it's much slower. 
Here is the catch....If you take on too much insulin the cell can actually prevent the GLUT-4 from leting glucose into the cell to make ATP. THis happens if ATP production is not need it and/or if too much insulin is present. That's when insulin then floating around the body activates the adipose tissues and stores the glucose as triglycerides or fat. 
So from my experience I try to not over do the insulin for this simple reason. I feel it creates too many problems as to insulin resistance or accelerated fat deposits. If you want to use more insulin I'd concentrate on using less than 10ius per shot and use it more often throughout the day to get more glucose in like that. 
Here is a simple insulin cycle
After workout 10-15min inject 8-10iu of insulin type R (fast acting) followed by 75g of maltodextrin/50g protein/cup of whole milk mixed in. Done!If you wish to take some creatine now is the time.  

LAter when you hungry eat a balanced meal. Now if you want to use insulin again it's fine. again 8-10iu with about 80g of carbs/50g of protein/some fat  and you are done. 
I hope I didnt miss anything as I wrote this from memory but I'll stand corrected if I did.


----------



## ElitePeptides (Nov 13, 2013)

Mutants protocol on bass killer looks pretty solid to me. I will be running that in the near future.


----------



## ElitePeptides (Nov 13, 2013)

I like the adjustments you made to that protocol Mike.


----------



## theCaptn' (Nov 13, 2013)

ElitePeptides said:


> I like the adjustments you made to that protocol Mike.



I ran mikes protocol - it's the ducks nuts


----------



## ElitePeptides (Nov 13, 2013)

Captn, I know it's been like a year since you started, but how were all of the results? Did you make some good gains?


----------



## theCaptn' (Nov 13, 2013)

ElitePeptides said:


> Captn, I know it's been like a year since you started, but how were all of the results? Did you make some good gains?



I made some great gains, but after let my diet go to shit and got fat. 

Lesson learnt, but in going to run it again in 2014


----------



## ElitePeptides (Nov 14, 2013)

That damn diet!  It's easy to get off track :/


----------



## TheHardOne (Feb 2, 2014)

Mike Arnold said:


> The two biggest factors used in determining whether or not insulin sensitivity is maintained is how frequently insulin is used, as well as what type of insulin is used.  In other words, total time of activity is what matters.
> 
> With that in mind, obviously, Humalog would be ideal for this purpose.  How many times per week humalog can be used without having any significant effect on insulin sensitvity will be determined by whether or not any insulin sensitizers are used along with it (along with factors such as diet & exercise).
> 
> ...



Sweet post! 

Can you answer these please

1)Taking t3 with insulin? does it somehow make the insulin less potent?

2)So if im taking those supplements to increase insulin sensitivity / doing HIIT cardio 2x a week (20 mins), low intensity cardio 3x a week (40mins) weights 6 days a week, using humulin-r....1 month on 1 month off sound good?

3)Is it a fact you can Become a diebetic from using insulin year round? Lets say if one does not go over 15iu daily? 

4)Healthy fats do have its glycogen replenishing / insulin sensitivity /  blood sugar controlling benefits....still avoid them when using  insulin? Why? 

5)Store in room temp below 86* fine? (for no longer than 30 days?)


----------



## Swolen22 (Mar 20, 2014)

Coop817 said:


> Run Mike Arnold's protocol.  Very effective.



Where can I find this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## satisfaction1822 (May 12, 2014)

obtained alot of info reading this.


----------



## rclabwholesale (Jun 11, 2014)

Humalin r is easy to get. Cheap and if you follow bass killers protocol with Humalog you can actually run Humalin r with the same half life if injected iv.. sounds creepy and not many people will mainline things,  but from my personal experience with insulin I have found that iv use of Humalin r is virtually identical to Im use of humalog. Same exact timing. It is more effective, and safe.. as you dk not have to wait hours and hours for you slin levels to reach a normal level again.


----------



## malk (Jan 25, 2015)

theCaptn' said:


> I made some great gains, but after let my diet go to shit and got fat.
> 
> Lesson learnt, but in going to run it again in 2014



Wot you doing in 2015 bruv.....


----------



## BigJH (Jan 25, 2015)

This is very close to how I take it 5r 10iu before and 5-10iu post I do the drinks the same way.. But I don't take it on none workout days ... You guys  thank I should?


----------



## malk (Jan 26, 2015)

BigJH said:


> This is very close to how I take it 5r 10iu before and 5-10iu post I do the drinks the same way.. But I don't take it on none workout days ... You guys  thank I should?


2x per day on workout days is plenty...sometimes i might add a shot here and there
If i feel unrecovered, muscle soreness etc but thats rare....


----------



## BigJH (Jan 26, 2015)

Thanks bro


----------



## mnmsnowbeast (Jul 22, 2015)

Yes,i was taking the walmart quick R its cheap and acts like humulog r but easier to get,taking 5iu of hgh mornings on empty gut,than post workout,4iu of slin R and than drink a vitargo carb mix whey protein,but had my doseage messed up,with 4iu slin I should of only had about 40 grams of carbs not 125 grms,which sent me into hypo,but next time I would only give carbs about 7-10 grms per iu of slin,so if I did 10iu slin,maybe 80-100 grms of carbs,and whey protein to help drive directly into the waiting muscles.


----------



## heckler7 (Oct 9, 2015)

Hectorpab said:


> Hello there! buy valtrex medication great web page.


sounds like you need to start a herpe log


----------

