# help me build my lower chest!!..



## wnabhuge912 (Apr 21, 2011)

Hey guys,I can't seem to get my lower chest to form..no matter what I do..am I missing any good workouts?..my main ones are decline bench,decline cable pulls,and of course The old fashion dips..any helpful advice would be appreciated..


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## Work IN Progress (Apr 21, 2011)

Bro, I do all of the above and can't get my chest right. Genetics are a bitch. On a brighter note my legs and back grow like weeds


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## ihateschoolmt (Apr 21, 2011)

The chest contracts as a whole. You can't only contract the lower part.  Isolating the lower chest is no more possible than just training one of  the muscles in the bicep, you need both to make any contraction. That  being said, the best way to increase your lower chest is to make the  whole thing bigger. You might want to try doing a heavy exercise, then a  stretch exercise, then a rep out. An example of this might be:

Bench 3x5
DB flies 3x10
Incline DB press dropset


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## Anabolic5150 (Apr 21, 2011)

The thing that helped me most and I posted somewhere else is to pre-exhaust the chest. I use a pec deck, shoulders against the back rest and ass at the very front of the seat (makes it like an incline fly) Do 3-4 sets, fairly heavy but with a full and slow range of motion.

Then what worked for me was inclines, flats and declines (bar or dumbbells, you pick), 3-4 sets, 8-12 reps every chest day. Start with a new angle every week. Bring up the whole chest and the upper pecs will look fuller as well as developing the lower and mid pec as well.


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## cshea2 (Apr 21, 2011)

Do you do your dips with your feet out in front of you?


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## Justinbro (Apr 21, 2011)

Decline flyes worked for me


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## wnabhuge912 (Apr 21, 2011)

ihateschoolmt said:


> The chest contracts as a whole. You can't only contract the lower part.  Isolating the lower chest is no more possible than just training one of  the muscles in the bicep, you need both to make any contraction. That  being said, the best way to increase your lower chest is to make the  whole thing bigger. You might want to try doing a heavy exercise, then a  stretch exercise, then a rep out. An example of this might be:
> 
> Bench 3x5
> DB flies 3x10
> Incline DB press dropset



I always make it a must to combine different sets into my chest,example being..
flat bench 5x5..
incline or Delcine 3-4x10
Flies3x10..               
I just wonder if im not dong enough decline..etc..or maybe I just have bad genetics on The lower part..However Ive never combined incline and decline on the same day.I always do one or the other..


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## wnabhuge912 (Apr 21, 2011)

cshea2 said:


> Do you do your dips with your feet out in front of you?



No,I always cross my feet and slightly put them behind me..with my body slightly angled frontwards..should I try changes this up? Im willing to try anything,I have a nice upper and NO lower..I hate it..


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## wnabhuge912 (Apr 21, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> The thing that helped me most and I posted somewhere else is to pre-exhaust the chest. I use a pec deck, shoulders against the back rest and ass at the very front of the seat (makes it like an incline fly) Do 3-4 sets, fairly heavy but with a full and slow range of motion.
> 
> Then what worked for me was inclines, flats and declines (bar or dumbbells, you pick), 3-4 sets, 8-12 reps every chest day. Start with a new angle every week. Bring up the whole chest and the upper pecs will look fuller as well as developing the lower and mid pec as well.



I will try this out Sunday,sounds very good...thanks anabolic...also should I try muscle confusion...u know start out with a different exercise,rather than flat then decline Then flies..maybe decline, then flat,then flies..something of that nature..does it really matter?..jus curious cause I never change it up..


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## ihateschoolmt (Apr 21, 2011)

Look into loaded passive stretching too, it helped me.


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## Anabolic5150 (Apr 21, 2011)

wnabhuge912 said:


> I will try this out Sunday,sounds very good...thanks anabolic...also should I try muscle confusion...u know start out with a different exercise,rather than flat then decline Then flies..maybe decline, then flat,then flies..something of that nature..does it really matter?..jus curious cause I never change it up..



I always do the pec deck preexhaust first, always. And I always switch up exercise order, one session is incline first, next may be decline and next flat. I also switch between barbell and dumbbells, if I do incline with a bar and then declines second, I use dumbbells. Make it fun, experiment, be your own test case.


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## Anabolic5150 (Apr 21, 2011)

Here is my last chest session so it makes sense,

Pec deck pre-exhaust. 4 sets x 8-12

Incline barbell 4 sets x 8-12

Flat dumbbell 4 sets x 8-12 

Decline smith 4 sets x 8-12

Makes better sense when you see it.


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## Anabolic5150 (Apr 21, 2011)

ihateschoolmt said:


> Look into loaded passive stretching too, it helped me.



Google DC stretches and try them, they are brutal but work great to help stretch the fascia.


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## ihateschoolmt (Apr 21, 2011)

The only difference between the two is that you do LPS for 15 seconds at a time 3-4 times and you do DC 60 seconds all at once. Man a whole minute at once of that would suck.


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## Anabolic5150 (Apr 21, 2011)

ihateschoolmt said:


> The only difference between the two is that you do LPS for 15 seconds at a time 3-4 times and you do DC 60 seconds all at once. Man a whole minute at once of that would suck.



Thanks, I learned something I didn't know. And yes, 60 seconds sucks, but we do 90 cause we are crazy!!


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## cshea2 (Apr 21, 2011)

wnabhuge912 said:


> No,I always cross my feet and slightly put them behind me..with my body slightly angled frontwards..should I try changes this up? Im willing to try anything,I have a nice upper and NO lower..I hate it..



Yah, give it a try. I find your chest really dominates the lift when you lean in and have your feet straight out in front, rather than crossed.


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## ihateschoolmt (Apr 21, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> Thanks, I learned something I didn't know. And yes, 60 seconds sucks, but we do 90 cause we are crazy!!


I do mine in between sets instead of at the end of the workout, there's a reason for this and I can't remember right now.


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## Anabolic5150 (Apr 21, 2011)

ihateschoolmt said:


> I do mine in between sets instead of at the end of the workout, there's a reason for this and I can't remember right now.



Whatever works for you works. I can't stretch between sets because most of the time I can't breath LOL. The stretching after for me helps me recover and keep a bit more flexible at my old age.


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## ihateschoolmt (Apr 21, 2011)

Anabolic5150 said:


> Whatever works for you works. I can't stretch between sets because most of the time I can't breath LOL. The stretching after for me helps me recover and keep a bit more flexible at my old age.


I hear that. I'm sure both work just fine. When I do HIT training I can't get up after a set of squats. I couldn't even think about stretching. I am doing a less than failure sets right now though, so it's no big deal for me. I love HIT and I can't wait to do it again, but it was time to switch things , you know? Anyways, here's an article about LPS for anyone interested. The answer I was looking for before was that loaded stretching can help increase power as oppose to regular light stretching that decreases power.
Stretching & Muscle: Does Stretching Increase or Descrease Muscle Power?


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## wnabhuge912 (Apr 21, 2011)

Thanks so much guys,there's alot of helpful advice in here..I will be giving it all a try..


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## carmineb (Apr 21, 2011)

Decline benches wide elbows out dips all stress the lower pecs more but more than that, the decline presses elicit more fibers than any otehr chest exercise......  (I have to get the reference but read it recently)....  

If you look at Steve Reeves (hercules movies)  or Vince gironda, you can see waht tons of dips do!  Wide sweeping chest across the bottom.  

Yes, you ought to do a balanced workout for yoru chest but you can also try to take out flats for declines/dips/cable cross overs.....


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## carmineb (Apr 21, 2011)

regarding teh stretching thing.  If someone stretches before a workout in a way that is harsh, it will decrease muscle power at the time
BUT, the type of stretching that will cause hyperplasia and muscle fiver splitting is done AFTER you do  your workout and are into flushing the muscle with pump and you gto off of the bounce, in a fly, it is at the extreme stretch, you do 1/4 rep bounces off the stretch.  X-Reps use this stretch, Larry Scott and otehrs in teh past have used it, I am a firm believer of them!


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## wnabhuge912 (Apr 21, 2011)

carmineb said:


> Decline benches wide elbows out dips all stress the lower pecs more but more than that, the decline presses elicit more fibers than any otehr chest exercise......  (I have to get the reference but read it recently)....
> 
> If you look at Steve Reeves (hercules movies)  or Vince gironda, you can see waht tons of dips do!  Wide sweeping chest across the bottom.
> 
> Yes, you ought to do a balanced workout for yoru chest but you can also try to take out flats for declines/dips/cable cross overs.....



And that's exactly what I want...a nice wide sweeping bottom..right now I have a flat pancake bottom chest..it sucks..


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## ihateschoolmt (Apr 21, 2011)

carmineb said:


> regarding teh stretching thing.  If someone stretches before a workout in a way that is harsh, it will decrease muscle power at the time


LPS studies show that it only decreased strength when it was light stretching, because it relaxes the muscle. When you use weights to stretch the muscle cannot relax because it is fighting the weight while in a stretched position and showed there was actually a 9.4% increase in strength. It's in that link I provided.


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## antisocialcreep (Apr 21, 2011)

you can target heads of a muscle group independently. post way above is wrong. decline presses get a bad rap these days but it worked for me. i have good genetics but i also have extremely developed pecs because of how i lift. you need to think it out and work in controlled movements. be creative, what works for one man may not work on the next


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## Merkaba (Apr 21, 2011)

Again, As usual...What Are You Eating?  You can do all the exercises in the world....


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## ihateschoolmt (Apr 21, 2011)

antisocialcreep said:


> you can target heads of a muscle group  independently. post way above is wrong. decline presses get a bad rap  these days but it worked for me. i have good genetics but i also have  extremely developed pecs because of how i lift. you need to think it out  and work in controlled movements. be creative, what works for one man  may not work on the next


No it's not. Muscles either contract or relax. You can't selectively contract part of a muscle. Or in this case, the three muscles in the chest. They either all contract or none of them do. Try to flex your upper chest and touch the bottom part of it. It will feel contracted just as the top does. Inclines move more of the work load to the shoulders and still uses some chest but certainly doesn't build the upper chest any more than the rest of it.


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## Built (Apr 21, 2011)

antisocialcreep said:


> *you can target heads of a muscle group independently. post way above is wrong.* decline presses get a bad rap these days but it worked for me. i have good genetics but i also have extremely developed pecs because of how i lift. you need to think it out and work in controlled movements. be creative, what works for one man may not work on the next



Really? 

Prove it.


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## ihateschoolmt (Apr 21, 2011)

Built said:


> Really?
> 
> Prove it.


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## Built (Apr 21, 2011)

It's only fair. If you're going to refute someone, you really need to back it up.


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## ihateschoolmt (Apr 21, 2011)

Here's two threads on here that really get into it. We used to have a sticky about this years ago...

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/t...lling-inner-middle-part-my-upper-chest-2.html

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/30621-incline-upper-chest.html


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## jimm (Apr 22, 2011)

try supersets bro go lighter and squeeze out 30 plus reps a set!!


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## Gazhole (Apr 22, 2011)

Every time this question is asked i pray this upper/lower chest shit isn't gonna kick off again. Of course it always does.

The ONLY way this train of thought (and i use the term loosely) came about was the same sort of bro-science thinking that states wide grip pullups build back width (simply because wide is in the name).


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## Merkaba (Apr 22, 2011)

antisocialcreep said:


> you can target heads of a muscle group independently. post way above is wrong. decline presses get a bad rap these days but it worked for me. i have good genetics but i also have extremely developed pecs because of how i lift. you need to think it out and work in controlled movements. be creative, what works for one man may not work on the next



Yep, I'm calling you out too.  Prove it.  And, with all due respect, to be honest,  I'm super super tired of hearing this universal cop out of " what works for you may not work for someone else"  Yea as far as what feels comfortable.  But look, the body works on certain principles.  You can't say that if you eat 20 grams of protein a day while doing strenuous work that you'll recover and build as much muscle as the same taking in 200 grams of protein.  The same goes for what you claim.  Some things are NOT subjective.  Like Gazhole said about the wide grip pull up shit.  Just some common rhetoric that perpetuates because so many people say it and believe it.


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## carmineb (Apr 23, 2011)

this is an age old argument of course can you target parts of a muscle. The argument goes that you can either contract a muscle or you dont, you cant contract part of a muscle OR you can target parts of a muscle....

Lets look at this: you CAN ONLY contract a "muscle fiber" the fiber itself either is contracted fully or it is NOT contractred. THAT is where the first argument above fails because it is NOT the muscle itself you contract but the muscle fibers. AND all muscle fibers for every muscle do not start and end at the same EXACT place.

The bicep has two muscles, the triceps have 3, we have the brachalis. For the thigh, we have the Quad(as in4) cepts....

The chest has slabs and slabs of muscle..... 

Different exercises and angles will hit certain areas of SLABS better than others.....

I used the example of Steve Reeves hercules, and Vince Gironda. I almost exclusively used to do parallel dips for chest, wide elbows, bent forward , thru my teen years. I had the outer and lower developed and NOTHING really for the inside or the upper. You can feel a peak contraction, a harder contraction at certain angles for certain parts of teh muscle better and why is that? Awell that part of the muscle is being worked out harder at the time, regardless of whether there is a casual assist from teh rest of he muscle. When we damage muscle from working out, doesnt the muscle product IGF-1? Is not the damage relative to the amount of stress the muscle endured? I have recently been doing ped deck flys with a slight bias with chin on chest and shoulder off pad, back slightly rounded and I hit the upper chest, so much so, I can do ped deck til complete failure and immediately change this angle to reflect the above and go for almost a completely full set again! Slightly different angle, Yes, the whole muscle probably contracts but he range of motion for parts of it is full contraction, for other parts of the muscle it is barely a range I am starting to get upper chest develpment when I never had much if any before. 

People do spider curls or peak contraction exercises to bring out a peak in a muscle and why? Cuz they WORK to do just THAT! Regardless of the reason why , the phisiology, it doesnt matter, wah matters is a part of the muscle that did not respond to other angles or exercises responded overwhelmingly more, targeted, on this one even if the entire muscle group has fibers within it assisting to some degree or another!

Abs, you do lower and upper, why bother? cuz altho the entire grop flexes, marts of it is stressed more and anyone who has done any lower abs will tell you, (lol, everyone here of course), the net day, they feel it in that targeted area MORE than if they had just done upper abs work.

This same argument goes for can you spot reduce, the old bodybuilders all felt they could and there is evidence today that states taht a muscle that is arobically worked out, (high reps for abs or obliques) will tend to use the fat that is closest to the targeted areas requiring the energy at the time.



For those who are not convinced, take one workout for chest and exclusively do dips and cross overs. Take another one and exclusively do inclines, where you are sore is where the damage was done....

Gazhole, lol... you are funny but to be fair, wide grip chinning vs shoulde width does focus more on targeted areas EVEN tho the entire back /lats are contracting, it does cuz parts of the back (some fibers) see a full contraction, some dont cuz of the angle while T-bar rows vs wide bent over rows, one is outer lats, one is inner back cuz the wide grip rows allows you to fully contract the inner back while the t bars you just get the initial movement. It is like doing partials for the inner and full reps for the outer....

The traps.... various places of inertion of the muscle, do shrugs vs doing reverse peck deck or wehe you pull up... different part of the muscle.....

The idea behind BODYBUILDING is to shape, contour each muscle within your own genetics 9where and how muscles start and end) vs a weightlifter or power lifter who have rugged muscles but none would ever win a bodybuilding contest cuz size, unbound size with just bulky shape doesnt win contests.. fully developed muscles from al angles does.

This is my take...

Think muscle fiber not muscle and think slabs that start and end not always in the same place and think partial rep for some vs full peak contraction for others depending on angle.

The proof is in the different body types creted by different systems. event eh high rep vs low rep fast vs slow twitching the muscle selectively recruits certain fibers along a spectrum


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## jkelley69 (Apr 23, 2011)

When doing DB presses does hand placement matter I was once told that as far as you can get your hands either in or out on the grip I think it was in but does it matter?


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## Built (Apr 23, 2011)

carmineb said:


> this is an age old argument of course can you target parts of a muscle. The argument goes that you can either contract a muscle or you dont, you cant contract part of a muscle OR you can target parts of a muscle....
> 
> Lets look at this: you CAN ONLY contract a "muscle fiber" the fiber itself either is contracted fully or it is NOT contractred. THAT is where the first argument above fails because it is NOT the muscle itself you contract but the muscle fibers. AND all muscle fibers for every muscle do not start and end at the same EXACT place.
> 
> ...


Abs are exceptional - you can hit different parts of the muscle. 

Rehabilitation of the spine: a ... - Google Books


carmineb said:


> This same argument goes for can you spot reduce, the old bodybuilders all felt they could and there is evidence today that states taht a muscle that is arobically worked out, (high reps for abs or obliques) will tend to use the fat that is closest to the targeted areas requiring the energy at the time.


This only works for intramuscular fat btw. The muscle will store fat near where it needs it, and this happens to women when they do tons of cardio while eaging hypercaloric, high-carb diets. Poliquin refers to this as the "kobe legs" phenomenon. In animals, it's called "marbling". 



carmineb said:


> For those who are not convinced, take one workout for chest and exclusively do dips and cross overs. Take another one and exclusively do inclines, where you are sore is where the damage was done....


Soreness doesn't indicate growth. 

Growth indicates growth. You can grow just fine without getting sore. Soreness is more a fallout of novelty - as the supporting tissues become accustomed to the work, it goes away. You still grow. 


carmineb said:


> Gazhole, lol... you are funny but to be fair, wide grip chinning vs shoulde width does focus more on targeted areas EVEN tho the entire back /lats are contracting, it does cuz parts of the back (some fibers) see a full contraction, some dont cuz of the angle while T-bar rows vs wide bent over rows, one is outer lats, one is inner back cuz the wide grip rows allows you to fully contract the inner back while the t bars you just get the initial movement. It is like doing partials for the inner and full reps for the outer....


Interestingly, if you look at the physics, you'll see that by triangulating part of the force vector sideways, you in fact de-emphasize the load to the lat. The sideways force is taken up by the rotator cuff. 

The only way to bypass this is to do these pulls one side at a time. 

You may grow wide doing wide-grip work. You'd have grown wide anyway - but with less potential for trauma to the RC. 

Some folks never have RC trouble, even doing stupid movements like these and upright rows. 

Some folks run marathons on their toes. Gotta love genetics.


carmineb said:


> The traps.... various places of inertion of the muscle, do shrugs vs doing reverse peck deck or wehe you pull up... different part of the muscle.....
> 
> The idea behind BODYBUILDING is to shape, contour each muscle within your own genetics 9where and how muscles start and end) vs a weightlifter or power lifter who have rugged muscles but none would ever win a bodybuilding contest cuz size, unbound size with just bulky shape doesnt win contests.. fully developed muscles from al angles does.


Dave Gulledge, powerlifter. 







Dave Gulledge, dieted-down powerlifter:

















carmineb said:


> This is my take...
> 
> Think muscle fiber not muscle and think slabs that start and end not always in the same place and think partial rep for some vs full peak contraction for others depending on angle.
> 
> The proof is in the different body types creted by different systems. event eh high rep vs low rep fast vs slow twitching the muscle selectively recruits certain fibers along a spectrum


You've done some thinking. Now how about doing some reading? It might help you argue more effectively once you understand what you're thinking about.


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## ihateschoolmt (Apr 23, 2011)

Where you feel soreness the next day is not a good indication for much of anything. If I do preacher curls the bottom of my biceps are sore and not the rest, does this mean I am going to build only the bottom part of my bicep? That's just not how it works. I do very little incline work and yet my upper chest really filled out as the whole thing grew. But enough bro science, how either one of us "feels" things work doesn't mean anything in all honestly. I could sit here and quote many many people that agree with me on this issue but so could you. It's been hugely debated. I always here people talk about how science says you can't target a muscle but I can't find anything on the internet that really has a good test to back it up(either side). It's time to get 100 untrained people and make them gained 20 pounds one only doing incline work for chest and others only doing declines and dips.


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## ihateschoolmt (Apr 23, 2011)

Spot reducing fat is wrong though, I will argue some more about that lol.


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## jasjotbains (Apr 23, 2011)

@ ihateschoolmt
thanks for the posts on top "how to build inner chest" i needed that 
@topic starter-decline bench presses or dumbbell presses are the techs for you.Maintain correct form,or else you are just wasting time...


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## Gazhole (Apr 23, 2011)

Built said:


> Dave Gulledge



Also, Matt Kroczaleski - powerlifter who recently started doing bodybuilding shows.


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## Merkaba (Apr 23, 2011)

carmineb said:


> this is an age old argument of course can you target parts of a muscle. The argument goes that you can either contract a muscle or you dont, you cant contract part of a muscle OR you can target parts of a muscle....
> 
> Lets look at this: you CAN ONLY contract a "muscle fiber" the fiber itself either is contracted fully or it is NOT contractred. THAT is where the first argument above fails because it is NOT the muscle itself you contract but the muscle fibers. AND all muscle fibers for every muscle do not start and end at the same EXACT place.
> 
> ...



There's so much incorrect about what you just wrote I don't have enough time to talk about it all, especially if you're still justifying wide grip lat pulls.  Why not go out another foot, or just on out to 179 degrees?  Because you'd be relying on the structure of the RC to hold you and you'd be doing less lat work? yes


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