# Anyone here run Clomid AND Nolva for PCT???



## DaBeast25 (Mar 25, 2011)

I used to see this recommended here and there and I'm pretty sure Clomid is supposed to have a little bit more of a specific effect on the HTPA vs. Nolva...

but I'm wondering if anyone is actually running both?
or just either or?
or one with hcg prior?


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## exphys88 (Mar 25, 2011)

I will be once I'm done w current cycle.  I'm no aas expert, but Dr. Scally is and he recommends doing so.


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## Livebig14 (Mar 25, 2011)

bump this.  anyone else?  and why?


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## G3 (Mar 25, 2011)

I DID for my first cycle (and only used HCG at the end). And I  just used Clomid, only, for my second but used HCG all the way through the cycle. I'm not sure which worked better but I have been hearing that Nolva is past it's useful days.


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## alphabolic (Mar 25, 2011)

yea i see nolva being abandoned more and more and used only for gyno emergencies.

im hearing more people running clomid with aromasin for PCT to avoid estro rebound.  and aromasin goes well with nolva too.  so im gonna run HCG on cycle and clomid + aromasin for PCT and adding in nolva when i need it.

hope that sounds about right


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## G3 (Mar 25, 2011)

alphabolic said:


> so im gonna run HCG on cycle and clomid + aromasin for PCT and adding in nolva when i need it.
> 
> hope that sounds about right


 
^^^ This is what I'm currently planning except that I will probably use a low dose Aromasin on-cycle as well.


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## alphabolic (Mar 25, 2011)

G3 said:


> ^^^ This is what I'm currently planning except that I will probably use a low dose Aromasin on-cycle as well.


 
yea for my 8 week test prop cycle at 400mg per week i'll run 12.5mg aromasin eod. looks like my arimidex is gonna go to waste because id rather do whatever possible to avoid gyno and aromasin will be more effective. then for PCT im thinking either 12.5 or 25mg every day for 4 weeks.


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## Livebig14 (Mar 25, 2011)

alphabolic said:


> yea for my 8 week test prop cycle at 400mg per week i'll run 12.5mg aromasin eod. looks like my arimidex is gonna go to waste because id rather do whatever possible to avoid gyno and aromasin will be more effective. then for PCT im thinking either 12.5 or 25mg every day for 4 weeks.


isnt armidex just as effective as aromasin?  Just taper it down toward the end of the cycle to avoid the estrogen rebound.  Aromasin is probably better but don't waste it man it can still be used


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## exphys88 (Mar 25, 2011)

alphabolic said:


> yea for my 8 week test prop cycle at 400mg per week i'll run 12.5mg aromasin eod. looks like my arimidex is gonna go to waste because id rather do whatever possible to avoid gyno and aromasin will be more effective. then for PCT im thinking either 12.5 or 25mg every day for 4 weeks.



I still haven't heard a good reason to increase the aromasin dose during pct (not saying there isn't one, I'm just unaware).  I would think if estradiol is kept within normal range during cycle with 12.5 EOD, why would you need more AI during a period when there is decreasing testosterone levels, and less test for aromatase enzyme to work with.  I will keep my dose of 12.5 EOD through PCT and get bloodwork to see how it's working.  Can anyone explain why we need more AI when we have less test in our system?


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## DaBeast25 (Mar 25, 2011)

I have plenty of nolva, but after seeing how cheap JAS has Clomid for I'm starting to contemplate running a lower dose of clomid and nolva along with aromasin.  Instead of just nolva/aromasin


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## alphabolic (Mar 25, 2011)

exphysiologist88 said:


> I still haven't heard a good reason to increase the aromasin dose during pct (not saying there isn't one, I'm just unaware). I would think if estradiol is kept within normal range during cycle with 12.5 EOD, why would you need more AI during a period when there is decreasing testosterone levels, and less test for aromatase enzyme to work with. I will keep my dose of 12.5 EOD through PCT and get bloodwork to see how it's working. Can anyone explain why we need more AI when we have less test in our system?


 
yea i was actually thinking the same exact thing and with the same rationale. if 12.5 eod on cycle works, why not post cycle? TGB had an explanation for why the higher dose of aromasin is good for PCT but i forget what it was. i can start with 12.5 eod for PCT and if i need more i can always up the dose. im also debating on whether i should still run the nolva ed at something like 10mg for PCT with the clomid and aromasin.

but yea i might stick with the arimidex on cycle at .5 eod and see how it works since eliminating too much estrogen isnt a good thing. my toughest decision is if i should buy another vial of prop. right now i have enough to run 400mg for 7.5 weeks. and for my first cycle i gotta decide. im definately running GP anavar for 5 weeks at 70mg though.


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## exphys88 (Mar 25, 2011)

I do know that Dr. Scally in his HPGA normalization protocol was able to return normal hormonal function in all of his subjects after 45 days with the use of HCG, Nolva, and clomid.  45 days is pretty awesome.  
But, who's to say that it couldn't have been done with just the HCG and clomid?


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## alphabolic (Mar 25, 2011)

exphysiologist88 said:


> I do know that Dr. Scally in his HPGA normalization protocol was able to return normal hormonal function in all of his subjects after 45 days with the use of HCG, Nolva, and clomid. 45 days is pretty awesome.
> But, who's to say that it couldn't have been done with just the HCG and clomid?


 
is there a difference between running HCG on cycle as opposed to during PCT?  most people seem to be 50/50 on this.


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## exphys88 (Mar 25, 2011)

sorry man, I'm not the right person to answer that question.  I'm trying to figure all this shit out too.  I'm just aware of Scally's study.


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## malfeasance (Mar 25, 2011)

Is there any downside to running both Nolva and Clomid (the original question), if both are on hand?


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## exphys88 (Mar 25, 2011)

In the scally protocol I'm talking about, they did 2000 IU EOD for the 20 days between last pin and PCT.


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## alphabolic (Mar 25, 2011)

malfeasance said:


> Is there any downside to running both Nolva and Clomid (the original question), if both are on hand?


 
from what ive heard, the estro rebound



exphysiologist88 said:


> In the scally protocol I'm talking about, they did 2000 IU EOD for the 20 days between last pin and PCT.


 
who waits 20 days between their last shot and PCT though?  seems a bit long.


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## exphys88 (Mar 25, 2011)

My understanding is that if running a long ester like test e or c, you should wait 2-3 weeks before starting pct, otherwise it won't have any effect if your test levels are still elevated.  I've heard that it's not going to inhibit recovery, but will be a waste of serm.  

As for the estro rebound from nolva and clomid, if you're running aromasin, you shouldn't have to worry about that.  

Don't quote me on any of this, this is just my understanding


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## oufinny (Mar 25, 2011)

Isn't Torem supposed to replace both Clomid and Nolva, dosed properly I have read many say it is far superior to both assuming have your AI in place and run HCG (which I would assume people would do anyways).  I am running Nolva now and have no issues but I was doing an oral only cycle so that may be why it is sufficient for me.


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## DaBeast25 (Mar 25, 2011)

Dr. Scally's PCT protocol seems very interesting(been researching it via google)...

The use of HCG does intimidate me some b/c even he admitts that the dosing and use of HCG is anecdotal.  With this in mind, the fact that it can PERMANENTLY desensitize the Ledyg Cells(spelling?) if misused is a great risk to me.

I'm contemplating running the clomid/nolva portion OR dropping the dose of HCG some...  

I feel like aromasin would be overkill at this point, although I'm still waiting to see what some "experts" in endocrinology might have to say


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## DaBeast25 (Mar 25, 2011)

Here's a good thread with info about Scally's PCT protocol... makes a lot of sense and he certainly appears to be a credible source.

The famous PoWeR PCT Program by Dr. Michael Scally

(If this is against the rules to post please delete)


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## oufinny (Mar 25, 2011)

HCG is very effective and safe, just keep the dose under control.  There is a great blog post on the primordial performance website that Eric wrote covering both on cycle and post cycle dosing.  He is very conservative in his amounts, if I can find the link I will post it because I don't remember it all off the top of my head.


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## alphabolic (Mar 25, 2011)

oufinny said:


> HCG is very effective and safe, just keep the dose under control. There is a great blog post on the primordial performance website that Eric wrote covering both on cycle and post cycle dosing. He is very conservative in his amounts, if I can find the link I will post it because I don't remember it all off the top of my head.


 
i've been researching aas for a longg time and still get conflicting articles/advice. but for a 7.5 week cycle of prop at 400mg a week, could i run 500iu a week in weeks 3-7 without any risk of leydig desensitization? i finally have my gear and am STILL trying to tweak everything perfectly before i start lol.


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## BigBird (Mar 25, 2011)

For long ester test such as Cyp or Enan, the rule of thumb is to start pct 2 weeks after last shot; however, there are aas with even longer esters such as sustanon. in the case of sustanon, it would probably be best to wait a whole 3 weeks before starting pct.

In regards to hcg during and after cycle, the philosophy is that avoiding testicular atrophy to begin with will just make pct that much easier to manage as your "boys" already have had a head start with rebounding. Hence running hcg during the cycle (starting around week 2 or 3) will ensure your nuts do not shut down completely and half the battle is already won.

Running clomid and nolva during pct is fairly common for 4 weeks.  Clomid would be 100mg ED week 1, 75mg week 2 and 50mg ED weeks 3 & 4.  Nolva would run simultaneously at 20, 20, 10, 10.  Several variables could factor into whether this is ideal in any particular situation but I know a good number of people who've ran their pct this way with success.


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## oufinny (Mar 25, 2011)

BigBird said:


> For long ester test such as Cyp or Enan, the rule of thumb is to start pct 2 weeks after last shot; however, there are aas with even longer esters such as sustanon. in the case of sustanon, it would probably be best to wait a whole 3 weeks before starting pct.
> 
> In regards to hcg during and after cycle, the philosophy is that avoiding testicular atrophy to begin with will just make pct that much easier to manage as your "boys" already have had a head start with rebounding. Hence running hcg during the cycle (starting around week 2 or 3) will ensure your nuts do not shut down completely and half the battle is already won.
> 
> Running clomid and nolva during pct is fairly common for 4 weeks.  Clomid would be 100mg ED week 1, 75mg week 2 and 50mg ED weeks 3 & 4.  Nolva would run simultaneously at 20, 20, 10, 10.  Several variables could factor into whether this is ideal in any particular situation but I know a good number of people who've ran their pct this way with success.



This is what I read in the PP article in regards to HCG.  On cycle is the way to go... yours is 8 weeks though so I am not sure with prop when you would start and stop, it is a short cycle.


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