# Food Combining



## Toughenuff (May 23, 2006)

I got told recently by some Nutritionists that you shouldnt combine starchy carbs (bread, potatoes, rice etc) with proteins (chicken, steak, eggs etc) because your body cannot digest them both properly when they are combined and it doesnt absorb much protein. Apparently u are only suppose to combine meat with vegetables and salad for the protein to be abosrbed properly. Ive done some reading on the net and there are many articles backing this theory up.

 But if this is all true then how the hell can you bodybuild without combining carbs and protein together to get the required calories and how have many people been combining these foods for years and still manage to build nice lean physiques and also remain healthy

Personally i think its all bullshit but i thought id ask for some more opinions on the matter and to see if anyone else knows more on the subject


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## atherjen (May 24, 2006)

bogus


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## The13ig13adWolf (May 24, 2006)

fire your nutritionists...


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## Emma-Leigh (May 25, 2006)

If you search the forums you will find that it has been discussed before... But it is crap... How do you think babies survive (milk = combination of protein, carbs and fats)....??


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## Toughenuff (May 25, 2006)

Good point Emma, i wasnt sure so i thought id bring it up here. I couldnt imagine living on chicken salads forever


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## VanessaNicole (May 26, 2006)

Some nutritionists told you that? Were they Registered Dieticians??? Are you serious?

Nessa

Oh by the way it's bunk.


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## wholebody (May 27, 2006)

I heard that a few years ago. I think it was one of those fad diets. when eating you should combine your food to get all the amino acids to get complete proteins. It is best to combined Grains with seeds i.e. bread with seeds, rice with sesame seeds. Grains with milk i.e. milk and cereal. Grains with legumes i.e. rice and beans.


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## VanessaNicole (May 27, 2006)

wholebody said:
			
		

> I heard that a few years ago. I think it was one of those fad diets. when eating you should combine your food to get all the amino acids to get complete proteins. It is best to combined Grains with seeds i.e. bread with seeds, rice with sesame seeds. Grains with milk i.e. milk and cereal. Grains with legumes i.e. rice and beans.



That's a totally different thing, that's not "food combining".

The fact that you need all 11 essential amino acids is true. Any food or combinations of food which contain all of the essential amino acids is called a "complete protein". Your body needs complete protein. It cannot use incomplete proteins, nor can it store them.

Meat is a complete protein, so carnivores don't have to worry about combining protein sources.

If you are a vegetarian however, you need to combine foods in order to achieve complete protein. Beans have 8 essential amino acids. Rice contains the other three. So together they are complete.That is absolutely valid.

Food combining is based on the idea that certain digestive enzymes, like the one's which digest proteins can deactivate the enzymes which break down carbohydrates. They're saying if you eat them together, one will not be digested. This is absdolutely untrue. Our bodies are designed to digest all sorts of different combinations of foods. It's just a dumb theory.

VanessaNicole


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## wholebody (May 27, 2006)

VanessaNicole said:
			
		

> Meat is a complete protein, so carnivores don't have to worry about combining protein sources.



that is not true meats have the most complete but there are still some incomplete proteins. eggs are the most complete having a protein rating of 100 where lean beef only has a rating of 69. So combining grains, seeds and legummes with meats is a good idea.


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## VanessaNicole (May 28, 2006)

Meat contains all of the essential amino acids. The rating refers to the percentage of the protein that is complete, and not the percentage of the amino acids contained therein. 

A rating of 69 suggests that 69 percent of the proteins are complete in profile, not that the source contains 69 percent of 13 amino acids.

Either way, meats offer all of the necessary essential amino acids. There is no need to suppliment it as a protein source. 

Vanessa Nicole


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## wholebody (May 28, 2006)

VanessaNicole said:
			
		

> A rating of 69 suggests that 69 percent of the proteins are complete in profile, not that the source contains 69 percent of 13 amino acids.
> Vanessa Nicole



You are right but if there is 69 percent complete proteins that means 31 percent are incomplete and are  useless for your body. To make the 31 percent complete you must consume the missing amino acids and in turn changing the 69 rating to a 100.


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## VanessaNicole (May 28, 2006)

Sorry but combining grains/legumes/dairy or anything else with your meat is just not necessary to ensure adequate complete and quality protein. 

That is all.

VanessaNicole


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## Gordo (May 31, 2006)

I may be wrong but aren't you guys (and gals) confusing complete and incomplete proteins with BV.

BV ratings are a measure of nitrogen retention....not amino acid profiles


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## VanessaNicole (May 31, 2006)

No. BV is the Bioligical Value rating of protein. And it measures the body's retention of the food nitrogen.

We are talking about (at least I am) Amino Acid Scoring. AAS is the evaluation of the quality of a food's amino acid composition in comparison to a reference protein (the reference protein scoring 100%). It's expressed in a percentage.

I see why you would think that though, because the BV of egg whites is 100% and the AAS of an egg is also 100%.

But they are different values.

VanessaNicole


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## Twin Peak (Jun 3, 2006)

Cough, bullshit, cough.


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## Mista (May 22, 2007)

Bump???


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## Jodi (May 22, 2007)

Food combining no formula for flushing out toxins Environmental Nutrition - Find Articles

Your body makes all the enzymes it needs for digestion.  Every food contains more than one macro.  For instance and apple has some protein in it.  The theory of food combining is stupid.  When you eat that apple your body will still produce all the enzymes it needs to break it down regardless of how much protein is in that meal or regardless of how much carbohydrates.


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## Minotaur (May 23, 2007)

Not a "food combining" bit of nonsense, but according to Larrian Gillespie, MD, author of The Gladiator Diet, fruit should not be consumed less than one hour before, or less than two hours after a protein, unless consumed with some fat.  The reason is that the insulin response caused by the fruit is enough to interfere with the glucagon response of the protein, thereby interfering with fat burning.  Consuming some fat will blunt the insulin response.

_"It's tempting to suggest he have a fruit smoothie for breakfast to get energy on the run.  However, when protein and fructose, the natural sugar in fruit are combined without any fat, the response in the body is the same as if he ate several pieces of white bread or swallowed 3 tablespoons of corn syrup.  So don't make the mistake of mixing a protein powder such as whey or soy with water and fruit.  Always make a protein drink with 1% milk." - *The Gladiator Diet, pp. 46-47*_

Btw, her recommended macronutrient ratio to properly manage testosterone and insulin (the book is geared towards men) is 40/35/25 protein/carb/fat.


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## Gordo (May 23, 2007)

The author of the gladiator diet: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Her specialty is urology.

I guess it's a personal thing, but I've never had a problem with fruit and protein interfering with fat loss. Just based on my own personal experience, I find that this advice is a little bunk.


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## Minotaur (May 23, 2007)

Gordo said:


> The author of the gladiator diet:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And...?  Because she's a woman?   She's also a urogynecological surgeon.

_Larrian Gillespie received her medical degree from the University of California at Los Angeles School of Medicine and became the first woman to graduate from their prestigious Urology program, an accomplishment that earned her the featured cover story in Parade Magazine.  

Over the next fifteen years, as a private practitioner, she brought about public awareness of an overlooked medical condition, interstitial cystitis, which resulted in three pharmaceutical patents from her pioneering research.

A frequent lecturer at international medical meetings, Larrian taught her colleagues how to diagnose and treat this "incurable" condition, through her more than 30 scientific articles and chapters in medical textbooks. _

Maybe it _is_ personal.  Remember, one size does not fit all.


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## Jodi (May 23, 2007)

It's a bunch of bull!  I just wrote an article that you will find in the Health forum on digestion.  You can see that each organ plays an important role in digestion and regardless of what you eat, your body is still going to function this way.  Go read the article.


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## Minotaur (May 23, 2007)

What's a bunch of bull?  Please clarify.


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## DOMS (May 23, 2007)

That crap of not mixing macro nutrients was a fad from the 90s (possible earlier).  And, like most fads, it'll make the rounds every few years.


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## Jodi (May 23, 2007)

Minotaur said:


> What's a bunch of bull?  Please clarify.


Please read the article.  You will see that the liver releases bile to breakdown fat and the pancreas releases amylase and other enzymes to breakdown sucrose and then the pepsin for protein.  It's doesn't determine one from the other so when you start to eat, all these enzymes and gastric juices are secreted no matter what you eat.  If you just an apple then all of this is going to be secreted and now you are just causing harm to your digestive system because you are overworking it and it's producing enzymes it doesn't need.  This is why they say to eat a complete meal everytime you eat.


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## P-funk (May 23, 2007)

this thread is as stupid as the idea that you can't combine certain foods.


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## Minotaur (May 23, 2007)

I did read the article.  And the excerpt I posted refers to hormone release, not digestive enzymes.  The hormones being discussed have more far-reaching effects than digestive enzymes do.

The point of the excerpt is that the sugar of the fruit will cause an insulin release; the protein will cause a glucagon release.  They are hormones having opposite functions:

Colorado State University, Endocrine System site: Glucagon

Colorado State University, Endocrine System site: Insulin

Consuming fat will blunt the insulin response. 

The excerpt _*doesn't*_ say to not combine foods, rather, it _*does*_ say to combine foods given the hormonal response.


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## Jodi (May 23, 2007)

A hormone called cholecystokinin is released from the liver and gallbladder when food is detected and controls the release of bile.  Insulin, glucagon and secretin are released from the pancreas when it gets that same signal.  It senses food and it secretes the hormones.  Take an apple as stated above.  An apple has carbs and protein and even a small amount of fat.  Every food has more than 1 macro in it.  All digestive enzymes and hormones are secreted to process this apple.


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## Jodi (May 23, 2007)

Another thing to keep in mind.........it takes 10 mins - 3+ (depending what you eat) hours for your body to process food once it reaches the stomach.  Then it goes to the small intestine.  So take an apple again and say you eat that at 11am.  That apple will spend a few hours in the stomach before it's moved along.  Now 2 hours later at 1PM you have a post workout shake.  Wow, that's predigested protein and it doesn't need to sit in the stomach for breakdown.  Where do you think it's going?  The small intestine which is exactly where the apple just went to after it sat in the stomach.  So now you have both items in your small intestine for the digestion completion and hormone release.  See what I mean?  It doesn't matter...........


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## DontStop (May 23, 2007)

isn't that Trophology?
I've looked into that before...it has to do with proper digestion right?


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## Nigeepoo (May 23, 2007)

I hope that Emma-Leigh doesn't mind me taking the liberty of posting this link from many years ago Bodybuilding.com Forums - View Single Post - eat the carbs last when in a meal?


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## danzik17 (May 23, 2007)

Just curious - how would gall bladder removal affect the digestion of fats?  Had mine out when I was like 11.


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## Gordo (May 23, 2007)

Minotaur said:


> And...?  Because she's a woman?



No, nothing to do with being a woman...in fact women tend to give more level headed advice (9 times outta 10).

And... she gives dietary advice but she really doesn't look like she practices it herself. Her specialty in the field does not relate to nutrition and diet (I realize that it doesn't have to) but she seems more like someone who jumped on the diet book train because it's marketable. I'll give her credit, she's rubbed elbows with a number of celebs. That's fine, but her bodybuilding advice is hard to swallow if she doesn't train herself 
(
No, I don't know that for a fact.
Yes, I'm judging a book by it's cover.
No, I don't know enough about her personally. 
No, I've never read her book (and I don't intend to). 
Yes, I'm making quite a number of assumptions here
). 

To me. someone like Emma-Leigh and P-Funk seem to have more credible advice and practical knowledge.


edit:

All that said....someone like Sue Johanson has amazing advice but is a little "odd", so, I suppose it's not fair to paint educators with the same brush I guess.


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## Minotaur (May 23, 2007)

Gordo said:


> That's fine, but her bodybuilding advice is hard to swallow if she doesn't train herself



But no one said anything about _bodybuilding_ advice, which she doesn't claim to give.  This has to do with hormone manipulation through diet.  She never claimed in any of her writings to know the ins and outs of weight training, though of course she recommends it.

Albert Einstein never traveled to outer space, and Stephen Hawking has never visited a black hole.  But their writings are taken as ne plus ultra.  

My original post was that there _may be_ something to combining foods, and I think she gives a plausible reason.  After all she _does_ have a degree or two and cites references in the book, not just writing off the top of her head.


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## Jodi (May 23, 2007)

danzik17 said:


> Just curious - how would gall bladder removal affect the digestion of fats?  Had mine out when I was like 11.


It doesn't cause too many problems at all.  Instead of the gallbladder storing the bile and secreting it to the intestines, it come straight from the liver.  Some people have diarreha problems afterwards which has to do with the passage way  of the bile.


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## Jodi (May 23, 2007)

Minotaur said:


> But no one said anything about _bodybuilding_ advice, which she doesn't claim to give.  This has to do with hormone manipulation through diet.  She never claimed in any of her writings to know the ins and outs of weight training, though of course she recommends it.
> 
> Albert Einstein never traveled to outer space, and Stephen Hawking has never visited a black hole.  But their writings are taken as ne plus ultra.
> 
> My original post was that there _may be_ something to combining foods, and I think she gives a plausible reason.  After all she _does_ have a degree or two and cites references in the book, not just writing off the top of her head.


I'm not sure what you are even debating though.  There are more than enough studies out there to dispel this food combining myth.


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## Minotaur (May 23, 2007)

Jodi said:


> I'm not sure what you are even debating though.  There are more than enough studies out there to dispel this food combining myth.





Minotaur said:


> My original post was that *there may be something to combining foods*, and I think she gives a plausible reason.  After all she _does_ have a degree or two and *cites references in the book*, not just writing off the top of her head.



I thought these forums _were_ for serious debate.  I wasn't aware that this thread was a proclamation.

I'm sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes.


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## Jodi (May 23, 2007)

No no no....not at all.  I love a good debate   I'm just trying to figure what it is that you are debating about........  

The only debate I've seen is that you think this women is right but we have argued that she is not right.  I think her ideas and methods are way out of date and there is a lot of scientific studies to prove it.

Please do carry on   This is good for everyone.


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## Minotaur (May 23, 2007)

1. I don't go along with the *not combining *foods claim.  I think that's b.s.

2. I think there is merit in what she says about controlling insulin and glucagon release *by combining*.

After all, isn't it common wisdom to take simple carbs post workout to cause an insulin spike to shuttle protein into the cells?  That's a combination for hormonal manipulation.

She is saying: put the brakes on insulin release by adding some fat to a protein/carb meal.  That's a different combination for a different purpose.  

Voila! Negates the no-combinations! 

I think we're kind of saying the same thing... just a different way.


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## Jodi (May 23, 2007)

I've always said that fat slows down gastric emptying to allow an easy steam of insulin release instead of a large surge.  This is why I don't believe in PWO insulin spikes.

All meals should be well balanced.  Fat and fiber slow down gastric emptying and provides satiety.

The whole protein/carb separation thing really annoys me because it makes absolutely no sense.  At night I do believe people should have protein and fats though and that's due to circadian rythms, cortisol and insulin surges before bed and has nothing to do with the crap about "protein decaying in the gut" BS.


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## Minotaur (May 23, 2007)

Jodi said:


> I've always said that fat slows down gastric emptying to allow an easy steam of insulin release instead of a large surge.  This is why I don't believe in PWO insulin spikes.
> 
> All meals should be well balanced.  Fat and fiber slow down gastric emptying and provides satiety.
> 
> The whole protein/carb separation thing really annoys me because it makes absolutely no sense.  At night I do believe people should have protein and fats though and that's due to circadian rythms, cortisol and insulin surges before bed and has nothing to do with the crap about "protein decaying in the gut" BS.



Omg!  We agree!   

Seriously, I don't do the pwo shake thing because since I am insulin resistant, i.e. diabetic  and on meds. the last thing I need is more sugar and insulin floating around doing nothing.



> the crap about "protein decaying in the gut" BS



Snopes debunked that, and Quackwatch debunked the colon cleansing thing.


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## Gordo (May 23, 2007)

> author of The Gladiator Diet, fruit should not be consumed less than one hour before, or less than two hours after a protein, unless consumed with some fat. The reason is that the insulin response caused by the fruit is enough to interfere with the glucagon response of the protein, thereby interfering with fat burning. Consuming some fat will blunt the insulin response.



I don't debate the "fat will blunt the insulin response" comment.



> fruit should not be consumed less than one hour before, or less than two hours after a protein, unless consumed with some fat.


 Call it what you will but it's restrictions that ultimately aren't necessary (*IF*, your daily diet choices are in check). I've said it before, that people should eat meals. Meals contain a protein, slow digesting carb and some sort of healthy fat. The point about fruit should not be consumed less than one hour before, or less than two hours after a protein shake because it will "knock me out of fat burning mode" is trying to micro-manage insulin. If your calories are in check and you are making quality food choices, you really should be fine in my opinion.

The problem with that time restriction statement is that it generates that age old unnecessary fear that fruit will somehow make a person fat. Or worse cause a person to avoid fruit because they just ate a protein. Unless you're preparing for a competition (and this book isn't directed at bodybuilders, as you mentioned), that kind of avoidance and thinking is unhealthy to me.


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## Gordo (May 23, 2007)

Or I've mis-understood the whole she-bang....which, at this point is quite possible LOL.


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## Minotaur (May 23, 2007)

Gordo said:


> trying to micro-manage insulin. If your calories are in check and you are making quality food choices, you really should be fine in my opinion.



Agreed.  And exercise is a major component IF you are the kind of person who does have hormonal issues (e.g. diabetes).

Hey, there's some things in her theories I've questioned, just like I question a lot of writers.  You gotta sift through it all, experiment and find out what works.


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## spike (Jun 4, 2007)

fruit digests in 30 min . If you eat it on top of a meal it will just sit on top and rot .   this is another 1 ive heard


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## tucker01 (Jun 4, 2007)

m'kay


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## Jodi (Jun 4, 2007)

spike said:


> fruit digests in 30 min . If you eat it on top of a meal it will just sit on top and rot .   this is another 1 ive heard


Please show me a study that proves that.


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## Gordo (Jun 4, 2007)

spike said:


> fruit digests in 30 min . If you eat it on top of a meal it will just sit on top and rot .   this is another 1* ive heard*





Jodi said:


> Please show me a study that proves that.



That's gonna be tough 

There was an interesting thread on this from another site....but no real data to back up what anyone is saying:
protein first! - Iron Addicts Forums


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## Gordo (Jun 4, 2007)

I suppose if you had a problem with fast emptying or perhaps GERD or celiac disease then it's possible that partially undigested food would be digested by bacteria elsewhere (Large Intestines) causing gas.


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## Mista (Jun 4, 2007)

DontStop said:


> isn't that *Trophology*?
> I've looked into that before...it has to do with proper digestion right?



Thats what I was readying about a while ago, I forgot the name.


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## spike (Jun 5, 2007)

Eating fruit before meals and other food combining rules
Natural Hygienists have known for a long time that fruit doesn???t combine well with other foods. The reason is that fruit contains simple sugars that require no digestion. Thus, they will not stay for a long time in the stomach. Other foods, such as foods rich in fat, protein and starch, will stay in the stomach for a longer period of time because they require more digestion. So if you eat fruit after a meal, the fruit sugar will stay for too long in the stomach and ferment. This is why people experience digestive trouble when eating fruit that way. They then blame that particular fruit for their trouble and claim that they are ???allergic??? to it.

Natural Hygienists have been recommending for a long time that fruit be eaten alone with no other foods. They have also recommended eating melons alone and avoiding mixing acid fruits with sweet fruits such as bananas. These are great recommendations, but can be definitely be simplified.

Many people have a difficult time eating a meal of fruit alone. They???ll eat a meal of melon and not so long after they???ll be hungry again, for the simple and obvious reason that melons are not calorie dense. Eating a small cantaloupe (200 calories) is not going to sustain you for very long. But because they have read somewhere that mixing melons with other fruits is not allowed, they???ll try to wait until the next meal to eat something else and then will often in the meantime overeat on dried fruits and nuts to compensate.

The solution to this is very simple: since fruit digests so fast, it is possible to eat fruit before any other food. You can, when you are hungry, eat as much fruit as you care for. One type of fruit only would be ideal. Then wait a little bit, like 5-10 minutes, and have any other food you desire. This can be a salad, a little avocado with tomatoes, some nuts, or anything. It can be cooked food too. If you???ve been trying to follow food-combining rules without success, this new information could be very valuable to you.

The same goes with mixing other fruits together. You can eat all the melon you want, and then, if you are still hungry, eat another type of fruit to satisfy your appetite. It is not necessary to eat melons alone if they are eaten before another foods. You can even have melon and then have an avocado after. The only thing that is important to remember is to have the fruit first - not after, and ideally only have one variety at a time.

How to eat fruit
www.frot.co.nz/dietnet/reviews/foodcombining.
FeelGoodFood.com - pH Test Kits, pH Testing Refills, Feel Good Food Guide 
Alder Brooke Healing Arts - Food Combining - 15k



One food at a meal is ideal! The safest way to eat on a daily basis is to eat simply. It is helpful to keep a log of everything you eat and are around. Once you have your health under control and feel comfortable with this new way of eating, add in more recipes and ideas. In time you will have your own program.

Drink 8 glasses of water from a pure source a day, but never with food. Your goal is to aid digestion not slow it down. Take it slow and be forgiving. Eat fruit at least 1/2 hour before other foods.

NOTE: Any combination of vegetables may be mixed with either one protein or one starch per meal. Never mix fruit with anything. Eat fruit at least 1/2 hour before other foods.


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## Gordo (Jun 5, 2007)

she meant scientific, peer reviewed studies....which those aren't. Essentially those sites can say whatever you want and (you'll notice) nothing is backed up with any scientific study at all (in fact it's a front to purchase a product or diet plan). There's no methodology, no testing, no data (Hypothesis, Testing, Results, Conclusion type stuff). Here's an example: Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training -- Roy et al. 82 (6): 1882 -- Journal of Applied Physiology


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## spike (Jun 5, 2007)

Im not arguing mate . I always had stomach cramps after eating an apple after a dinner ,didnt know why thought my stomach didnt agree with them .since ive started eating fruit before a meal ive never had a problem . so that is my evidence to me. But im not arguing as everybody is different .But works for me


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