# Arnold overtrained



## Flex (Feb 5, 2005)

I had a discussion recently with someone that said something to the idea of "due to his genetics, Arnold was able to do that many sets w/o overtraining and grow".

I thought it was pretty ridiculous. IMO, sure, good muscle building genetics allowed him to grow all that muscle, but it was the boatload of steroids that allowed him to keep from overtraining.

If that weren't so, then how come guys today don't do 30 sets/muscle group, considering how much more info we have about training, and ESPECIALLY considering  how much MORE juice they're on (thus an even better recovery ability) and they STILL don't do it.


any thoughts??


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## Tough Old Man (Feb 5, 2005)

Hell i do at least 24 sets 5 days a week whether I'm on gear or not and I'm 52 years old. I believe it built into ea of us and a lot of this overtraining idea is mental. This is nothing now compared to what i did in the 70's. I did a hell of a lot more sets then i do now. no two people are alike and what's good for one doesn't mean it's good for another. Your body will tell you. Unless I'm cutting i never have days where I'm weaker then others. By 1983 I weighed 341lbs in weight from the weight of 194lbs when i started in 1977. I worked out 6 days a week back then repeating Mon, Tues and Wed exercises tThurs , Fri and Sat.


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## goodguy12 (Feb 5, 2005)

341you must of been a big muthertrucker do u have a pic?


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## Cold Iron (Feb 5, 2005)

Id say the juice has a lot to due with it but genetics also come into play


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## Mudge (Feb 5, 2005)

Arnold also flys out of bed after a mere 4-5 hours of sleep, something I have only done during one period of my life. Arnold is just Arnold.

How would we know if he overtrained or not? If the food is there, I believe the muscle will largely be there with the right anabolic support. He didn't use particularly large weights (he wasn't a 500 bencher), and he was an extraordinarily happy person. I believe that last part is very important. He loved doing what he did, and with him being so famous for LYING about what he was doing in order to throw competitors off his trail to success, some of the stories may be BS or they may have been for very short time periods. Lots of pros still do relatively high volume, but lots of them dont push the weights much. Jay Cutler does high volume towards competition time, with lighter weights.

Whatever he did, Arnold was Arnold because he wanted to be Arnold and he loved being Arnold. It worked for him, and to me thats all I need to know. I do what works for me, I dont need to know why my genetics are different than someone elses, they just are what they are and thats what I have to work with and they had what they had to work with. I would love to hear what the truth if is he ever published his memoirs, but I suspect complete honesty will never happen.


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## Mudge (Feb 5, 2005)

goodguy12 said:
			
		

> 341you must of been a big muthertrucker do u have a pic?



There is a guy near me who is my height and 335. Most people could never match how much food he eats, and the thought of how much toilet paper he goes through is pretty disgusting (approximately 5 rolls a day).


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## Flex (Feb 5, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> I would love to hear what the truth if is he ever published his memoirs, but I suspect complete honesty will never happen.



me too


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## soxmuscle (Feb 5, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> There is a guy near me who is my height and 335. Most people could never match how much food he eats, and the thought of how much toilet paper he goes through is pretty disgusting (approximately 5 rolls a day).


Those must be some massive craps.  Wow.


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## Cold Iron (Feb 5, 2005)

No way. Being extremely generous, that means he shits 10 times a day, at half a roll of tp each session


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## Tha Don (Feb 5, 2005)

Flex said:
			
		

> it was the boatload of steroids that allowed him to keep from overtraining.



exactly, so he didn't overtrain! 

ever heard of john defendis?


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## ihateschoolmt (Feb 5, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> the thought of how much toilet paper he goes through is pretty disgusting (approximately 5 rolls a day).


What the hell? Thats not even....what the hell?


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## Tough Old Man (Feb 5, 2005)

I was 25 years old when i started. 6 months later I visited Dr. Robert Kerr. I don't know if any of you have ever heard of him, but he went by Dr. K. I was on gear for 7 years. In those days we did gear 9 weeks on 3 weeks off with testing every three weeks. If test weren't normal he took you off until ok. Only once in the 7 years was i taken off. Gear consisted of (don't remember the dosage) but anadrol, d-bol and test. that's it sports fans. Anandrol for 3 weeks then D-bol and test for 6 weeks. Not what everyone does now, but my liver is fine to date. 
anyhow i don't have any pic's as my first wife when i left her for a younger woman after 23 yrs, burnt them all.
Forgot one thing. Back then i ate a min of 4 lbs of beef a day along with 30 whole eggs. I figure I put down by ends day between 8-10k in cal's. I never worried about counting anything as the Dr. said just eat as much Poulty, beef or pork plus as many eggs as you can. I do know that when lifting, I mixed 12 whole eggs in O.J and drank it while i lifted. Shit the next time i bulk think i'll try that as i can Eat my weight in beef. Never had a cholestrol problem back then either. You know what the next time i bulk fuckk worrying about cholestrol and fats IE: Hamburger meat which is my favorite.


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## musclepump (Feb 5, 2005)

Defendis =


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## Flex (Feb 5, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> ever heard of john defendis?



ya, he's only been in my sig. since i joined IM


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## Mudge (Feb 5, 2005)

Flex said:
			
		

> me too



Dorian said he wont talk doses used, because he doesn't want kids trying to duplicate that thinking thats all it takes. I wish I knew what he did and how much, but I can completely see his point, its unfortunately the way it goes, and once you get to the top you would have a protocol in place anyway.

Tom Prince said when he retires he will give some examples. How specific did Flex get in his book? I haven't read it...


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## Mudge (Feb 5, 2005)

Cold Iron said:
			
		

> No way. Being extremely generous, that means he shits 10 times a day, at half a roll of tp each session



When I was doing 5400-6500 calories per day I was going after each and every meal. Right now at a mere 4500ish calories per day, I go 4 times a day on the average, sometimes 5. He outweighs me by 80 pounds, and he got there with a damn lot of food, so yes I am quite confident he shits as much as he says he does. Take a look at the back of a dually filled with groceries, for one man, for roughly one week, and you know he takes a lot of shits.


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## Tough Old Man (Feb 5, 2005)

give you a hint, my dosages at the end where 8 x the prescprition. If you really want to see how big I was at one time, but this was 3 years after i stopped lifting, go rent the movie " OVER THE TOP". Look at the person arm wrestling SLY for the title. Then look at my current picture and you'll know my real name. Boy I'M sure GIVING MY INDENTITY AWAY. bUT I'm throwing a B.D. party right now for my brother.  So I'm having a few drinks for the first time in 4 months. BAD, BAD PT. (Rick)


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## huesoloco (Feb 6, 2005)

I'm guessin thats you on the right, but I really can't tell from this angle and teh beard.


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## Flex (Feb 6, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> How specific did Flex get in his book? I haven't read it...



He started at age 19. 

This is why IMO genetics get "overrated" and roids simply don't get enough "credit" in pro BB...

"My 18 years on steroids started with a handfull of little blue pills. I started taking them every single day, figuring that since i was only 140 measly pounds, anything would help. I began to notice somthing major was happening with my body, and not all of it good. 
    First of all, my skin started expanding all over, as if someone had stuck a hose in my mouth and pumped me full or air. If fact, my skin became so stretched in certain areas that it had faint lines where it looked like the tissue had torn open-the skin's natural reaction to packing on 20lbs within a matter of 3 weeks. Soon my entire body began to look like a pregnant woman's stomach after a tough 9 months. 
    I developed huge stretch marks all over my chest and thihs. They grew so big that they almost touched. And when i work up in the morning, I noteiced my biceps bulging before i even flexed. 
    I was constantly hungry-no matter how much i ate, it was never enough. My body was expanding so much that i was becoming a human garbage diposal of junk food. Across the street from Copleand's was a McDonald's that i'm certain i kept in business, b/c for lunch i'd order three big macs, two large fries, two shakes and a coke. Two hours later, i'd be straving again. I'd have Levetta (his gf) stop by with an afternoon snack, but we're not talking an apple or a bag of chips. I could eat an entire pizza at three oclock and then be ravenous again two hours later. 
    My face got so fat, puffy and pmiply that people i knew started stopping me on the street to say "Man, what's wrong with you"? You look like someone ejected you with a big grease gun".
    One night, i went to the gym, and one of the bodybuilders wanted to talk to me in the locker room. "Flex, try this new stuff", he said, handing me a new streroid called Deca-Durabolin. There was only one hitch: This wasn't a handy little pill-it came in a vial, with a big, scary needle in a separate package. Did i mention that as a little kid i'd throw a tantrum when my grandma wanted to take me to the Dr.'s to get a booster shots. I wasn't any more courageous when it came to needles now, but this time i fugred i had a good reason for freaking out. 
   You see, the needles back then that went with steroids weren't little, like the ones that diabetics use to give themselves insulin shots. Needles actually come in sizes: the higher the number, the thinner and smaller they are (which means they're less scart). To put this in perspective, diabetics use a 27 gauge; my first steroid needle was a 15. For those not versed in the medical arts, it basically looked like a harpoon...
   That's how i began taking the shots, which i TOOK WEEKLY FOR ALMOST TWO DECADES. (I ALSO CONTINUED THE PILLS EVERY DAY). 
    Of course, my steroid use escalated as time went on, which just seemed...well, natural. I was a pro BB-everyone knew i was doing steroids, and no one considered it a big deal. 
    I went from 140 to 170lbs in a few weeks. Over the next several months, I kept going-until i was THREE HUNDRED POUNDS." 

That's why IMO steroid use is "underrated" in pro BB's. Flex wasn't by any means a mesomorph. He was a very skinny kid. He ABUSED steroids for years (rarely coming off) which gave him the size, but of course it was due to his genetic muscle shape/bone structure etc., that his physique looked awesome.

It's a pretty good book. He doesn't get into tiny little details abuse use, but he certainly doesn't hold much back. You should check it out...


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## Flex (Feb 6, 2005)

Even though it's a shitty picture, IMO the best physique ever...


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## Flex (Feb 6, 2005)

and this of course.....


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## Tha Don (Feb 6, 2005)

awesome post flex! flex wheeler is my 2nd favourite BB'er ever (no prizes for guessing who my favourite is)

i think in terms of physique he (flex) is unmatched, i can't believe he never won the olympia


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## Tha Don (Feb 6, 2005)

untouchable


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## Arnold (Feb 6, 2005)

young d said:
			
		

> untouchable




*hmmm...I'm sorry, but please tell me again what year Flex won the Mr. Olympia?*


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## LAM (Feb 6, 2005)

Flex said:
			
		

> I had a discussion recently with someone that said something to the idea of "due to his genetics, Arnold was able to do that many sets w/o overtraining and grow".
> 
> I thought it was pretty ridiculous. IMO, sure, good muscle building genetics allowed him to grow all that muscle, but it was the boatload of steroids that allowed him to keep from overtraining.
> 
> ...



yup...people are idiots.  most people have no concept of how the endocrine system or CNS works.  they simply talk out of their asses.  if they knew that testosterone was a neuromodulator they would know that supraphysiological doses of test can keep a person from overtraining very easily.


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## Machher (Feb 6, 2005)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> give you a hint, my dosages at the end where 8 x the prescprition. If you really want to see how big I was at one time, but this was 3 years after i stopped lifting, go rent the movie " OVER THE TOP". Look at the person arm wrestling SLY for the title. Then look at my current picture and you'll know my real name. Boy I'M sure GIVING MY INDENTITY AWAY. bUT I'm throwing a B.D. party right now for my brother. So I'm having a few drinks for the first time in 4 months. BAD, BAD PT. (Rick)


u got a chance to act with stallone?


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## Var (Feb 6, 2005)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> give you a hint, my dosages at the end where 8 x the prescprition. If you really want to see how big I was at one time, but this was 3 years after i stopped lifting, go rent the movie " OVER THE TOP". Look at the person arm wrestling SLY for the title. Then look at my current picture and you'll know my real name. Boy I'M sure GIVING MY INDENTITY AWAY. bUT I'm throwing a B.D. party right now for my brother.  So I'm having a few drinks for the first time in 4 months. BAD, BAD PT. (Rick)



  No way!  I loved that movie when I was a kid!


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## sabre81 (Feb 7, 2005)

i believe your body gets used to over training after a while.  My friend has been over training since our high school days.  He still overtrains regularly, however he still is a big mo fo.


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## huesoloco (Feb 7, 2005)

What happened to all of Flex's stretch marks?


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## njc (Feb 7, 2005)

Have u guys read the sample routines in his encyclopedia of bodybuilding? He suggests that u progress to a point where you train every bodypart 3 times a week, except for calves and abs, which are hit 6 times a week.


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## Flex (Feb 7, 2005)

huesoloco said:
			
		

> What happened to all of Flex's stretch marks?



um, he's black


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## Flex (Feb 7, 2005)

njc said:
			
		

> Have u guys read the sample routines in his encyclopedia of bodybuilding? He suggests that u progress to a point where you train every bodypart 3 times a week, except for calves and abs, which are hit 6 times a week.



that's what i'm saying. if i remember correctly, this was his routine...

MWF
chest/back in the a.m.          legs in the p.m.

TTS
shoulders/bi's/tri's in a.m.      (something in the pm, can't remember)

calves/abs everyday

if that isn't overtraining, then WHAT is?


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## soxmuscle (Feb 7, 2005)

Do you think if Arnold had trained more properly that there was potential to be filled?  Could he have been bigger than he was had he done things the way people do them now?


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## Flex (Feb 7, 2005)

soxmuscle said:
			
		

> Do you think if Arnold had trained more properly that there was potential to be filled?  Could he have been bigger than he was had he done things the way people do them now?



^that's what i'm thinkin'.

if super-high volume as well as x's/week constituted great gains, then guys nowadays would be doing that as well.

But, despite the ridiculously higher amounts of juice, they STILL don't train with that kind of volume and/or frequency per week....


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## Flex (Feb 7, 2005)

Regardless, whether he overtrained or not, he STILL ended up with acceptably the best physique of all time...


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## soxmuscle (Feb 7, 2005)

Flex said:
			
		

> Regardless, whether he overtrained or not, he STILL ended up with acceptably the best physique of all time...


Theres no denying that.  People like Arnold piss me off.


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## SlimShady (Feb 7, 2005)

soxmuscle said:
			
		

> Do you think if Arnold had trained more properly that there was potential to be filled? Could he have been bigger than he was had he done things the way people do them now?


 That is a good thought... could he have been bigger? ... Or possibly, could it be that all the worry about over training is for nothing? Perhaps the amount of training isn't as important as people make it out to be - i.e. - You have the genetic ability to attain a certain amount of muscle mass, and as long as you train at least x amount of hours, and eat y amount of food, you will fulfill that potential. 

 Even if Arnie is exaggerating his training routine, there were plenty of people training like that back in the 60s and plenty of good physiques were attained. And not all of them were using gear.


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## KarlW (Feb 7, 2005)

soxmuscle said:
			
		

> Do you think if Arnold had trained more properly that there was potential to be filled? Could he have been bigger than he was had he done things the way people do them now?


That's interesting, but surely he experimented in the early days with different training routines and ideologies before he decided to train so frequently?


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## LAM (Feb 7, 2005)

Flex said:
			
		

> that's what i'm saying. if i remember correctly, this was his routine...
> 
> MWF
> chest/back in the a.m.          legs in the p.m.
> ...



evey single pro bodybuilder periodically changes their routine.  it is impossible to say that "this" was his training routine.  Arnold and Franco both used routines based on powerliting, yet you NEVER see any of those routines in any published book, etc.  basically my point is that just because it was in a book, doesn't make it true or even accurate.


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## Mudge (Feb 7, 2005)

SlimShady said:
			
		

> Even if Arnie is exaggerating his training routine, there were plenty of people training like that back in the 60s and plenty of good physiques were attained. And not all of them were using gear.



I want to know who wasn't. Steve Reeves went to his grave claiming he never had, others say thats untrue and that Reeve's only had a grudge that they were using so much later on and going beyond what was healthy. He appealed to Arnold for help over this matter.

Casey Viator was using 2.5 grams of deca a week, thats just a little bit of gear I'd say. Larry Scott used, and admitted it. So who didn't? I would also be curious how you know these subjects you bring up are honest.


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## KarlW (Feb 8, 2005)

> He appealed to Arnold for help over this matter.


 What did he ask of him?


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## Flex (Feb 8, 2005)

LAM said:
			
		

> it is impossible to say that "this" was his training routine.  Arnold and Franco both used routines based on powerliting, yet you NEVER see any of those routines in any published book, etc.  basically my point is that just because it was in a book, doesn't make it true or even accurate.



You're right, you can't say b/c it was in a book it was true or accurate. But from what i've understood through books, interviews, a reliable source etc., basically Franco started with powerlifting and Arnold introduced him to BB training. Supposedly Arnold started with basic power exercizes, but trained BB style. And that Arnold did use a shitload of volume and frequency, going in the morning and back at night.


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## Flex (Feb 8, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> I want to know who wasn't.



Me too


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## JerseyDevil (Feb 8, 2005)

huesoloco said:
			
		

> I'm guessin thats you on the right, but I really can't tell from this angle and teh beard.


The guy on the right is Rick Zumwalt, a  world champion pro armwrestler, or should I say was.  He passed away almost two years ago...


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## SlimShady (Feb 8, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> I want to know who wasn't. Steve Reeves went to his grave claiming he never had, others say thats untrue and that Reeve's only had a grudge that they were using so much later on and going beyond what was healthy. He appealed to Arnold for help over this matter.
> 
> Casey Viator was using 2.5 grams of deca a week, thats just a little bit of gear I'd say. Larry Scott used, and admitted it. So who didn't? I would also be curious how you know these subjects you bring up are honest.


 When I said, 'a lot of good physiques were built back then and not all of them used gear', I was speaking in general terms and not of specific pro BBers - People in the general public who tried to emulate Arnold, Reeves, etc, who followed those published routines and still managed to build good physiques. I won't say certain pro BBer's were clean, because I don't think any of them were. 

 I'm looking back as a person who is clean, and I wonder just how much all the different training techniques can accomplish when you take gear out of the equation.


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## Tough Old Man (Feb 8, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> I want to know who wasn't. Steve Reeves went to his grave claiming he never had, others say thats untrue and that Reeve's only had a grudge that they were using so much later on and going beyond what was healthy. He appealed to Arnold for help over this matter.
> 
> Casey Viator was using 2.5 grams of deca a week, thats just a little bit of gear I'd say. Larry Scott used, and admitted it. So who didn't? I would also be curious how you know these subjects you bring up are honest.


Steve REAVES......EA not EE
George REEVES ...EE not EA A.K.A Superman


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## Arnold (Feb 8, 2005)

Flex said:
			
		

> I thought it was pretty ridiculous. IMO, sure, good muscle building genetics allowed him to grow all that muscle, but it was the boatload of steroids that allowed him to keep from overtraining.



there is something called muscle fiber distribution Flex, most of us have an even distribution of red and white fiber muscle, but it is believed that some have a higher amount of either white or red fiber which would mean they could train differently, i.e. if Arnold had a higher amount of red fiber he would have to train more often than someone that had a higher amount of white fiber, and he would respond well from that type of training, whereas someone that had higher white fiber would not.

you should not attribute everything to steroids, which you often seem to do. 

here is an article I wrote awhile back that explains some of this: http://ironmagazine.com/article44.html


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## DOMS (Feb 8, 2005)

JerseyDevil said:
			
		

> The guy on the right is Rick Zumwalt, a world champion pro armwrestler, or should I say was. He passed away almost two years ago...


 http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0958658/


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## Luke9583 (Feb 8, 2005)

_Hi, we invented Post-it's _


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## brodus (Feb 8, 2005)

I see both sides of this, but how can you argue with the fact that you can go way higher in volume when you're on cycle?  Anyone who's ever used knows this.  I chart my workouts.  When I'm "on" I can easily double volume.  The limiting factor of injury and recovery time is very much changed.

I think it's a combination of both factors.  When you couple great genetics with substantial anabolics, big things happen.  But give someone with average genetics enough juice and enough hardcore training and they too will "get huge."  Maybe not IFBB-pro huge, but huge compared to the average male.

Also, there is something we're not discussing, and that is genetic tolerance for steroid abuse.  This is important.  For instance, in terms of fast-twitch fibers to bodyweight ratio, no one has more than an olympic sprinter.  However, his/her training is leg-based, and these athletes aren't looking for mass, nor the side effects of mass-building steroids.  If they're taking anything, it's for recovery, joint lubrication, and red blood cell volume.  

So we have another variable, and that is your ability to deal with/endure side effects of steroids, and also your body's innate response to exogenous hormonal influence; does it react positively or negatively?  I think this is a huge determining factor in how far you go in pro-level BBing.

BTW, I would argue (and many of you will disagree), that MANY bodybuilders actually have LESS THAN PERFECT genetics, lower in fact than most pro athletes and powerlifters.  Think about it.  If your natural genetics to rapidly grow and respond to weight training are tip top, you probably got a scholarship (like Ronnie Coleman) to go to college for sports or went into powerlifting.  

Now, if they're not--say you're second-string defense on the Football team--but you have a tremendous ability to handle 4grams of test a week, well then we have a BBer in the making.

I think for an example of "great genetics" you look at someone like Sergio Olivia or Bertil Fox or Ronnie or Arnold, or even Lee Priest.  These guys had enormous natural builds before the juice, and crazy genetics.   I would argue that there are more people with amazing natural potential to be huge BBrs in pro athletics than in bodybuilding, however contentious that seems.


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## Flex (Feb 8, 2005)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> you should not attribute everything to steroids, which you often seem to do.



I know i do tend to do this^, but i just don't think they get enough "credit".

They guys don't simply use, they abuse for decades.

and Brodus, Arnold didn't have a "huge natural build". The guy supposedly admitted to people he started juicing when he was 13. Sure, that's not neccesarily credible, but if you look at him when he's 18, you KNOW he's been abusin' for at least a few years. 

as a matter of fact, check out this quote from "Arnold's Unauthorized Biography"....

"In his bestselling autbiographical "Arnold: The Education of a BB:, Arnold suggested that he made many freinds among the Graz BB's, who accepted and encouraged him. That, however, wasn't the case. According to Helmut Cernic, who worked as trainer at the Union from 1960 to 1967 and won the Mr. Austria title in 1963, Arnold did not make a good first impression on the Union BB's. On that first evening he introduced himself to all of them, one by one, solemnly announcing in tones that reminded Cernic of a door-to-door salesman, "Good evening, my name is Arnold Schwarzenegger. I would like to do bodybuilding."
  Cernic noted that, although Arnold spoke in German, he isolated the word bodybuilding by pronouncing it in English. The effect was strange. Says Cernic, "From the first night when he walked in to the Union, we all thought Arnold had a big mouth. He had very bad posture, a slightly shrunken chest, fallen shoulders, very skinny legs, and used to train with his eyes half closed and his mouth half open, so that the whole effect was as if he wasn't all there. Soon after he started his first training sessions at the Union, he turned around to another BB, Johnny Schnets, who was around his age, and said, "Well, I give myself about five years and i will be Mr. Universe." We all looked at each other as if to say "This boy is crazy".
   Early on, Kurt Marnhul gave Arnold basic training advice, telling him "When you train, think of the muscle you are working on or developing and go to the farthest pain barrier. Go on until you cry out. That is the secret of the biggest bodybuilders. They train beyond the pain barrier." He had sensed Arnold's potential and advised him regarding diet, a topic about which the Austrain bodybuilding community, in that era, was ignorant. They didn't know about sticking to egg white and protein and, as a result, ate mountains of eggs. Marnhul also told Arnold about steroids: how they increased growth and were necessary to win competitition. Artnold listened. Marnhul offered him steroids. And Arnold took them. 
   Marnul had learned about steroids and their dosgaes from Steve Reeves, whom he had first me in France during a 1952 vacation, and was willing to give Arnold the necessary injections of the steroids Primobolin, the champagne of steroids, two or three times a week. The injections began almost immediately after Arnold started training as a bodybuilder. So did the steroids tablets, namely Dianabol. An Austrain BB who trained with him remembers, "Arnold took steroids in doses that terrifeid the other BB's. I saw him swallow 8 or 9 Dianabols at a time. Then he would take a gulp of mik, a handful of protein tablets , and while he was still swallowing and could hardly talk, say, "Right, now I'm ready!". and start training." According to fellow BB Rick Wayne, Arnold confided to him that he had been taking steroids since the age of 13."

Imagine that! A young, skinny ass Arnold walking into the gym and introducing himself one by one, "Hello, my name is Arnold Schwarzenegger and I would like to do bodybuilding"


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## brodus (Feb 8, 2005)

Didn't know that about Arnold.  You have to admit he has the bone structure to support a great physique.  I wonder if he owuld have been taller had he not done steroids in his young teens.


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## thatguy (Feb 8, 2005)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> Steve REAVES......EA not EE
> George REEVES ...EE not EA A.K.A Superman


Actually, I'd be willing to bet large sums of money that Steve Reeves the old bodybuilder is spelled "EE" also.  Google it.


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## Mudge (Feb 8, 2005)

KarlW said:
			
		

> What did he ask of him?



I will see if I can find it. He appealed to Arnold to speak out about drug use in the sport, guys kept getting bigger and bigger, it seemed like a very public/official type letter.

Reaves (I didn't do a spell check before hand) looked amazing, I think he looked much more asthetic than Zane myself, but I just never really appreciated Zane at all. So of the "small guys" I'd rather be Reaves. If he was clean or not though I dont even pay much mind too, everyones body is different, we are all capable of different things. If you want to remain clean why concern yourself with who is or isn't? Get your diet down and just stay clean. 

I will see if I can dig that up on Reaves. (which Google says is Reeves)


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## Arnold (Feb 8, 2005)

brodus said:
			
		

> ...but how can you argue with the fact that you can go way higher in volume when you're on cycle?  *I do not argue this.*
> 
> 
> I think it's a combination of both factors.  When you couple great genetics with substantial anabolics, big things happen.
> ...


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## brodus (Feb 8, 2005)

Rob, if their genetics are so great, why didn't they express themselves until later in life?  If you're a naturally huge guy from the get go, you get tapped to play football or wrestle or whatever when you're young.  My theory is that the gentically superior get tapped for pro athletics while the nearly top (which would be most of the IFBB) are still figuring out if they want to take the plunge into anabolics.  

Just playing devil's advocate here.

Oh, and Trevor Smith, who would bulk up to 400 pounds, was a skinny ecto in high school.  Food for thought.


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## chris mason (Feb 8, 2005)

Steroids aid recovery, I can say that with 100% certainty.

Arnold's high set routines practiced as many times a week as he did would have overtrained most folks.  Arnold used steroids at least when preparing for shows.  Actually, if you look at pictures of Arnold from back in the 70s and 80s it is pretty easy to tell when he was on and off. 

Anyway, Arnold's use of steroids allowed him to train with higher volume and still benefit from it.  There really should be no argument there.

Now, how much volume one can use and still progress is individual and can even for the individual depending on other variables (calories consumed, general health, sleep and so on).

Paul Anderson and Doug Hepburn both used high volume routines in terms of total sets and frequency and they were both drug free (most authorities will not argue this point).  They were the biggest and strongest men of their day.  

The whole volume argument has so many variables as to make it a silly one.


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## Flex (Feb 8, 2005)

brodus said:
			
		

> how can you argue with the fact that you can go way higher in volume when you're on cycle?  Anyone who's ever used knows this.



There's no doubt you can go higher in volume, but each bp hit with like 20-30 sets, 3x's/week while training twice/day????

That's not a "higher" volume if you're on juice. That's a RIDICULOUS volume, no?


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## brodus (Feb 8, 2005)

I agree about the volume thing being silly to a point. 

You find what works for you.  In college sports, it's all about high-volume until race/game-day prep.  I'm talking really high volume.


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## Flex (Feb 8, 2005)

brodus said:
			
		

> My theory is that the gentically superior get tapped for pro athletics while the nearly top (which would be most of the IFBB) are still figuring out if they want to take the plunge into anabolics.



Flex Wheeler wasn't like that. Or Arnold. Or Dorian


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## brodus (Feb 8, 2005)

Flex said:
			
		

> Flex Wheeler wasn't like that. Or Arnold. Or Dorian



Are you saying they were huge as youngsters?

Or that they weren't exactly first guy picked for the team?


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## DAcre (Feb 8, 2005)

Arnold rocks, dont care about he trained. He's a bit of a legend and has said some amazingly funny things in his films:

"I'm ARNOLD GET DOWNN"
"He's dead tired"

Just sounds so funny when he says it in his german voice thingy


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## Flex (Feb 8, 2005)

brodus said:
			
		

> Are you saying they were huge as youngsters?



Uhhh, i was sayin that they weren't huge as youngsters. 

Flex and Arnold were both very skinny kids before they started training/juicing. And from what i've seen of Dorian when he was like 21 and runnin' with gangs, he was a toothpick.

so it's not like these guys are mesomorphs. That's why i believe steroids don't get enough "credit" in their success...


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## Mudge (Feb 8, 2005)

brodus said:
			
		

> while the nearly top (which would be most of the IFBB) are still figuring out if they want to take the plunge into anabolics.



So you believe they are natural?


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## Flex (Feb 8, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> So you believe they are natural?



so what you're trying to tell me, Mudge, is that Cell Tech ISN'T the secret???


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## huesoloco (Feb 8, 2005)

Flex said:
			
		

> um, he's black


Are you fuckin kiddin me? stretch marks on a black guy looks worse on a black guy then they do on a white guy, and if black people didbt get stretch marks he wouldnt have mentioned it.


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## Flex (Feb 8, 2005)

huesoloco said:
			
		

> Are you fuckin kiddin me? stretch marks on a black guy looks worse on a black guy then they do on a white guy, and if black people didbt get stretch marks he wouldnt have mentioned it.



no shit, dick, it was a J.O.K.E.


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## BruiseKnee (Feb 8, 2005)

maybe arnold is just lying to all of us like he did to everyone else back then about his "techniques" lol


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## Arnold (Feb 8, 2005)

chris mason said:
			
		

> Anyway, Arnold's use of steroids allowed him to train with higher volume and still benefit from it.  There really should be no argument there.



well, Tom Platz said that he tried training with Arnold, he followed Arnolds 6 day spilt, high volume, hitting ever bp twice per week and he could not handle it....Tom  certainly was not natural.


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## Warren[BigW] (Feb 8, 2005)

arnold sucks


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## KarlW (Feb 9, 2005)

Mudge said:
			
		

> Reaves (I didn't do a spell check before hand) looked amazing, I think he looked much more asthetic than Zane myself, but I just never really appreciated Zane at all. So of the "small guys" I'd rather be Reaves. If he was clean or not though I dont even pay much mind too, everyones body is different, we are all capable of different things. If you want to remain clean why concern yourself with who is or isn't? Get your diet down and just stay clean.


Spelt Reeves from everything I can find.........but who cares.

......and I agree. I don't care who was or wasn't clean. Yeah I'd love to look like Reeves whether he used or not. But I'm not him and I'm never gonna use so what's the difference?


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## Flex (Feb 9, 2005)

Robert DiMaggio said:
			
		

> well, Tom Platz said that he tried training with Arnold, he followed Arnolds 6 day spilt, high volume, hitting ever bp twice per week and he could not handle it....Tom  certainly was not natural.



HE wasn't either?

DAMN YOU, CELL TECH!


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## Flex (Feb 9, 2005)

Warren[BigW] said:
			
		

> arnold sucks



riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight


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## Arnold (Feb 9, 2005)

Warren[BigW] said:
			
		

> arnold sucks



sucks at what?


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## brodus (Feb 9, 2005)

Flex said:
			
		

> Uhhh, i was sayin that they weren't huge as youngsters.
> 
> Flex and Arnold were both very skinny kids before they started training/juicing. And from what i've seen of Dorian when he was like 21 and runnin' with gangs, he was a toothpick.
> 
> so it's not like these guys are mesomorphs. That's why i believe steroids don't get enough "credit" in their success...



Cool, I couldn't tell what you meant. We agree then.


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