# Gyno be GONE!



## tballz (Jan 21, 2014)

After researching raloxifene for quite some time I decided to use it instead of tamoxifene.  

Ralox knocks the gyno out and it's yet to return.


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## Jimmyinkedup (Jan 21, 2014)

Raloxifene is king when it comes to gyno treatment. It can be tough to find but it works wonders with gyno. It the best serm for that purpose followed by tamoxifen and I personally dont feel an ai like letro should be used to treat gyno at all. Glad to hear it went well for you!


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## Bubbles! (Jan 22, 2014)

tballz, what dose did you run it at and for how long?


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## mr.buffman (Jan 22, 2014)

Who's ralox did u use??


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## tballz (Jan 23, 2014)

Bubbles! said:


> tballz, what dose did you run it at and for how long?


60mg for 3 months



mr.buffman said:


> Who's ralox did u use??


 CEM Products


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## ElitePeptides (Jan 23, 2014)

How long did you have the gyno before taking ralox?


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## gymrat827$ (Jan 24, 2014)

tballz said:


> After researching raloxifene for quite some time I decided to use it instead of tamoxifene.
> 
> Ralox knocks the gyno out and it's yet to return.



i would stay on a low dosed AI to keep it away.  also, do not run anything that will aromatize.  If you do cycle, go big on the AI dose.  

it comes back easily.  



GL


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## tballz (Jan 27, 2014)

ElitePeptides said:


> How long did you have the gyno before taking ralox?



I've always carried additional bf in chest since puberty but after my first ever cycle, which was ill planned, I got gyno. Its been several years now since then.


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## juiceyyy91 (Mar 9, 2014)

You used the Raloxifene by itself or did you also use an ai with it?

juice


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## walkertxranger (Mar 12, 2014)

I have been dealing with unilateral gyno for 10 months, and had good reduction of swelling, and absence of tenderness with 1 month of tamox 120 mg dailyX14d 60mg dailyX14d etc drawdown , after nothing with letro for 2 months, Arimidex, zinc, b6,voodoo , and prayer .  It is still fatty, and more pronounced than other side.  Should I consider ralox as well?  Any help from people that know.  Thanks


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## juiceyyy91 (Mar 12, 2014)

walkertxranger said:


> I have been dealing with unilateral gyno for 10 months, and had good reduction of swelling, and absence of tenderness with 1 month of tamox 120 mg dailyX14d 60mg dailyX14d etc drawdown , after nothing with letro for 2 months, Arimidex, zinc, b6,voodoo , and prayer .  It is still fatty, and more pronounced than other side.  Should I consider ralox as well?  Any help from people that know.  Thanks



Yes use Raloxifene, I'm using 50mg per day and it's helping

juice


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## StanG (Mar 13, 2014)

walkertxranger said:


> I have been dealing with unilateral gyno for 10 months, and had good reduction of swelling, and absence of tenderness with 1 month of tamox 120 mg dailyX14d 60mg dailyX14d etc drawdown , after nothing with letro for 2 months, Arimidex, zinc, b6,voodoo , and prayer .  It is still fatty, and more pronounced than other side.  Should I consider ralox as well?  Any help from people that know.  Thanks



Ralox is THE single best option for gyno. If it doesnt work then surgery is your only recourse. I would def try it. Id take 60mg/day and expect to take it for around 2 months maybe 3. Its blocks estrogen from the e receptor in breast tissue better than anything else, including tamoxifen.


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## 1bbigger (Mar 13, 2014)

Im giving it a shot, thanks for the feedback.


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## StanG (Mar 14, 2014)

1bbigger said:


> Im giving it a shot, thanks for the feedback.



No problem. Keep us posted as to how it goes. All the best man!


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## walkertxranger (Mar 14, 2014)

While we are on the experimental side of peptides, has anyone in this forum of Gyno b Gone utilized toremifene as a SERM, and what was the outcome?  Spelling is correct, NOT tamox, but toremifene, also a breast cancer med for estrogen sensitive breast cancers.  

My logic here may be off, but how can gyno be forever, if a person using test prop. can lose 25-30% of their testicular mass due to atrophy.  Something has to shrink this.  BTW, I'm less than 10%bf, and never carried fat on my pecs, but did have gyno through puberty, although I didn't know what it was called.  I just remember severely painful nipples for about 1.5years from 12-14.


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## Paranoid Fitness (Mar 14, 2014)

CEM should have Ralox in stock soon. I know they're working hard on restock.
I'd like some myself. I use it for PCT.


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## BIGBEN2011 (Mar 17, 2014)

how do you know if it is gyno i have never had problems with gyno even while running crazy high doses and no ai.i now use a ai but really just because.but now my nips are hurting just if you touch them kinda like they are sun burned or something. like i say how do i know if it is gyno or just sore nips my nips  have hurt before while on i tought nothing about it but now am wondering. i dont think it is gyno but idk they look fine.


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## exerciseordie (Mar 17, 2014)

Bigben do not constantly touch them. This can make matters worse. Make sure your AI is not bunk. Get bloods done. If there is no bump you are probably fine but bloods are cheaper than gyno surgery and you can have the results in 48hrs or so. Just to be safe I would go ahead and order some nolva (if you don't have some) and adex or letro from a different source so if there is an issue with your estro you can attack it immediately. Most RC companies ship quickly but I would find one known for shipping speed and quality. That is just what I would do.


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## StanG (Mar 17, 2014)

Gyno is an actual lump or mass. It is abnormal growth of the mammary gland in a man. You would feel a actual lump.


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## blergs. (Mar 17, 2014)

walkertxranger said:


> While we are on the experimental side of peptides, has anyone in this forum of Gyno b Gone utilized toremifene as a SERM, and what was the outcome?  Spelling is correct, NOT tamox, but toremifene, also a breast cancer med for estrogen sensitive breast cancers.
> 
> My logic here may be off, but how can gyno be forever, if a person using test prop. can lose 25-30% of their testicular mass due to atrophy.  Something has to shrink this.  BTW, I'm less than 10%bf, and never carried fat on my pecs, but did have gyno through puberty, although I didn't know what it was called.  I just remember severely painful nipples for about 1.5years from 12-14.



its about development, once developed its developed. like puberty women grow breasts... what glads have grown have grown.  taking away estrogen may shrink them but its not going to take away all development..  its not the same thing as testicular atrophy.   that is shrinking from not being active. not the same thing as actually growing and developing glands due to high estrogen. why in many cases it needs to be cut out, because the bit of shrinking that did occur for a person using serm or AI was not enough to shrink it to point its not noticed.  
I would rec trying Ralox from CEM for a couple months and see how they do. Torem is also an option. but I hear alot of good about ralox to shrink gyno (shrink!  not take away... as some might call it)


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## Soujerz (Mar 19, 2014)

blergs. said:


> its about development, once developed its developed. like puberty women grow breasts... what glads have grown have grown.  taking away estrogen may shrink them but its not going to take away all development..  its not the same thing as testicular atrophy.   that is shrinking from not being active. not the same thing as actually growing and developing glands due to high estrogen. why in many cases it needs to be cut out, because the bit of shrinking that did occur for a person using serm or AI was not enough to shrink it to point its not noticed.
> I would rec trying Ralox from CEM for a couple months and see how they do. Torem is also an option. but I hear alot of good about ralox to shrink gyno (shrink!  not take away... as some might call it)




So if it only shrinks gyno, Does it only shrink gyno while using Ralox?  Or is the Shrinking of the gyno permanent?  Also for someone on HRT 200mg CYP a week using .5mg Arimidex EOD, who wanted to try and use Ralox at 60mg a day to get rid of gyno from a cycle of Test E at 750mg for 12 weeks, would you say to reduce the Arimidex dose?  Or leave it the same?


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## StanG (Mar 21, 2014)

Paranoid Fitness said:


> CEM should have Ralox in stock soon. I know they're working hard on restock.
> I'd like some myself. I use it for PCT.



You called that.
CEM now has Ralox back in stock!


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## 1HungLo (Mar 24, 2014)

I don't have gyno but I do have excess fat in my pecs. Is there anything other than diet (not helping) that can help burn that excess fatty breast tissue off and tighten up my pecs? Would raloxifene help with that as well?


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## devildogusmc (Mar 24, 2014)

Wish I had known about Ralox many years ago... Would have saved me on not one, but two gyno surgeries.


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## Soujerz (Mar 24, 2014)

does Ralox actually get rid of the Glandular tissue that developed from AAS usage or only shrink the existing gyno while using it but then when stopping the gyno returns to normal size again?


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## walkertxranger (Mar 25, 2014)

If I was a hateful person I would flame blergs.  Dumbest response I have ever seen.    

There is this contention that glandular tissue develops out of nowhere, and then once it is developed it stays forever.  That in itself is ridiculous.  This gland which is always there in the nipple has many E2 receptors, and can be stimulated to grow due to receptor activation. 
If you have real questions, use your copay and your mandated insurance, and get an endocrinologist to check you out.  AAS, puberty, genetic or medication issues are really all about conversion of testosterone to due aromitization by CYT P450, or the abundance of estradiol in relation to test.  DHT blocks estrogen from binding at the site, so if you knock your test down due to AAS, you knock down DHT that prevents activation of the glands that everyone has in their nipple.  Likewise you remove estrogen through an AI, or you use a peptide that acts in the same way that DHT does and differentially binds to the site, then it atrophies from lack of stimulation.  
Will it come back?  If your hormonal imbalance is off, possibly.  These SERMs don't act forever.  AI does not permanently block estrogen, in fact there are many chances for rebounds.  So back to square 1.  Get your levels checked, have an endocrinologist talk with you about your numbers.  If it can resolve naturally in a teen, there is no reason to believe it cannot resolve in an adult, your AAS cycle being likened to surges of test, aromatization, and your body trying to balance it out.  It happens in babies that are breast feeding because of the hormones of mama. these systems are complex loops.  
Good luck.  BTW, I found toremifene to be a better SERM than ralox.  It immediately stopped the itching, proliferation, and tenderness.


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## 1HungLo (Mar 25, 2014)

Hate to post this twice but does anyone know: 



1HungLo said:


> I don't have gyno but I do have excess fat in my pecs. Is there anything other than diet (not helping) that can help burn that excess fatty breast tissue off and tighten up my pecs? Would raloxifene help with that as well?


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## exerciseordie (Mar 25, 2014)

1HungLo said:


> Hate to post this twice but does anyone know:



I DO NOT RECOMMEND THE FOLLOWING!!!!

I once read an article by a long time forum member on a different forum. For this exact issue he had a protocol for DNP, T3, and Clen along with letro and nolva. It is a dangerous expensive course of action. If you diet long enough your body SHOULD dip into those stores.


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## Paranoid Fitness (Mar 25, 2014)

StanG said:


> You called that.
> CEM now has Ralox back in stock!



Yep. Mine got here in two days.
That same day processing at work again.


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## 1HungLo (Mar 26, 2014)

exerciseordie said:


> I DO NOT RECOMMEND THE FOLLOWING!!!!
> 
> I once read an article by a long time forum member on a different forum. For this exact issue he had a protocol for DNP, T3, and Clen along with letro and nolva. It is a dangerous expensive course of action. If you diet long enough your body SHOULD dip into those stores.



Good to know, thanks for input bro.


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## malfeasance (Mar 26, 2014)

Paranoid Fitness said:


> I use it for PCT.


How do you use it for PCT (details, please)?


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## SuperLift (Mar 26, 2014)

Good to hear man. I'm glad to hear it helped!


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## Soujerz (Mar 26, 2014)

Again does RALOX actually get rid of gyno or only reduce it while you are on it?   Same question for LETRO?


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## exerciseordie (Mar 26, 2014)

Soujerz said:


> Again does RALOX actually get rid of gyno or only reduce it while you are on it?   Same question for LETRO?



Letro reduced my gunk back to its size from my puberty years. Never took it away completely and I fucking hated life on it. No sex drive at all, joints hurt all the time, and I just didn't feel worth a shit on it or for a month or two after.


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## Paranoid Fitness (Mar 26, 2014)

malfeasance said:


> How do you use it for PCT (details, please)?



30-60mg/day for four weeks depending on the cycle (compounds/dosages/length of cycle).

It's a SERM. Run it in place of Nolva.
Nolva never worked very well for me.


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## mr.buffman (Mar 27, 2014)

Just picked sum up  hope it works!!


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## StanG (Mar 27, 2014)

mr.buffman said:


> Just picked sum up  hope it works!!



It the last straw pre surgery. If it doesnt there is no other compound that will. The only remaining alternative is surgery.


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## SuperLift (Mar 27, 2014)

Just pulled the trigger.. Hopefully it will shrink them down a bit.  They aren't to bad now, but I still notice it.


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## I stay hungry (Mar 28, 2014)

Has anyone ever traveled overseas with ralox? I'm going to Germany in a couple of weeks and wanted to order before I left. I don't know where to get stuff out there just yet. I don't feel like being stopped or having to toss a bottle...


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## seymorebunz (Mar 28, 2014)

Very cool...good to know


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## walkertxranger (Mar 28, 2014)

I am using ralox right now, very little change, nipple is becoming more tender.  Toremifene gave me almost instant reduction, not tender and cost is comparable.  I have heard great things about toremifene and use with prolactin reduction. I know it affected the itching (gone) the hardness (became much more pliable), and tenderness (gone) in my unilateral gyno.


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## Soujerz (Mar 28, 2014)

walkertxranger said:


> I am using ralox right now, very little change, nipple is becoming more tender.  Toremifene gave me almost instant reduction, not tender and cost is comparable.  I have heard great things about toremifene and use with prolactin reduction. I know it affected the itching (gone) the hardness (became much more pliable), and tenderness (gone) in my unilateral gyno.




Once you stopped using the Toremifene did the gyno stay reduced?   Or did it go back to the original size?


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## devildogusmc (Mar 28, 2014)

walkertxranger said:


> I am using ralox right now, very little change, nipple is becoming more tender.  Toremifene gave me almost instant reduction, not tender and cost is comparable.  I have heard great things about toremifene and use with prolactin reduction. I know it affected the itching (gone) the hardness (became much more pliable), and tenderness (gone) in my unilateral gyno.



How long have you been using it? And btw, I posted in here about having gyno surgery more than once. Ralox wasn't around back when I had the surgery. The LAST thing you'll want to do is go under the knife, even though I'm sure a good Plastic Surgeon can get it done right the first time these days. One thing I'll also note is there was a study done in Europe (overseas somewhere outside of "free" America), and it involved males with gyno, and Nolvadex. These guys were given 40mgs/day Nolvadex for six months+, and around 80% had gyno issues that went bye bye. That was a study done 15yrs ago, however. Today's medicine has changed dramatically in that short amount of time. Also, keep in mind these weren't AAS using athletes that underwent this study.


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## mr.buffman (Mar 29, 2014)

Just got mine today . Well keep everyone updated! Starting tommarow 60mg till it goes away or till the bottle is empty!


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## Soujerz (Mar 30, 2014)

mr.buffman said:


> Just got mine today . Well keep everyone updated! Starting tommarow 60mg till it goes away or till the bottle is empty!




How long have you had your gyno?

How bad is it?


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## blergs. (Mar 31, 2014)

walkertxranger said:


> If I was a hateful person I would flame blergs.  Dumbest response I have ever seen.
> 
> There is this contention that glandular tissue develops out of nowhere, and then once it is developed it stays forever.  That in itself is ridiculous.  This gland which is always there in the nipple has many E2 receptors, and can be stimulated to grow due to receptor activation.
> If you have real questions, use your copay and your mandated insurance, and get an endocrinologist to check you out.  AAS, puberty, genetic or medication issues are really all about conversion of testosterone to due aromitization by CYT P450, or the abundance of estradiol in relation to test.  DHT blocks estrogen from binding at the site, so if you knock your test down due to AAS, you knock down DHT that prevents activation of the glands that everyone has in their nipple.  Likewise you remove estrogen through an AI, or you use a peptide that acts in the same way that DHT does and differentially binds to the site, then it atrophies from lack of stimulation.
> ...



You do not understand half of what you speak about... but i wish you the best...


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## mr.buffman (Mar 31, 2014)

I got my gyno around November 2013, its about the size a marble kinda hard. it only hurts if i squezz tightly. It is noticeable in pics though =[. Im hoping to have good luck.


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## walkertxranger (Apr 1, 2014)

Please inform me about the parts I'm misinformed on.  I'm no endo, I'm trying to piece this together from bro science and textbooks.  I'm just a zoologist that has a few textbooks, and a lot of time, and unilateral gyno.  So please enlighten me how pubertal gyno goes away, how its different than AAS derived and where my logic and misunderstandings have steered me afoul.


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## blergs. (Apr 1, 2014)

walkertxranger said:


> Please inform me about the parts I'm misinformed on.  I'm no endo, I'm trying to piece this together from bro science and textbooks.  I'm just a zoologist that has a few textbooks, and a lot of time, and unilateral gyno.  So please enlighten me how pubertal gyno goes away, how its different than AAS derived and where my logic and misunderstandings have steered me afoul.



explain to me how you think an AI works and stops build up of gyno...
much pubertal gyno doesnt go away. glands DEVELOP also, not just swell... like a women going through puberty...
You are off on many points and im not gonna spoon feed u, i dont have the time for that... stop acting like you know it all and stop the bashing. you are the one looking more and more silly...


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## Soujerz (Apr 1, 2014)

from another msg board

"Once you have formed actual glandular tissue, you can't get rid of it. However, you can shrink it. In many cases, when guys say they got rid of their gyno, all they really got rid of was the initial swelling that appears at the on-set of gyno. This swelling period is a preparation phase, in which the environment is being altered to allow for the formation of actual glandular tissue, which will inevitably occur if estrogen levels remain elevated for long enough. Swelling is temporary--hard lumps (glandular tissue) are permament. In some cases, if the glandular tissue is small enough, it can be shrunk to such a degree that it is no longer visible.

Most of the time, guys try and get rid of gyno by starving it of estrogen. This is usually accomplished by using Nolvadex and/or an AI. This is more than sufficient when the only thing present is swelling. However, once glandular tissue has formed, the best way to fight gyno is by attacking it from multiple angles. Not only do you want to starve it of estrogen, by you want to immerse it in DHT. The best way to do this is with a combination of Nolva, AI's, and topical DHT preparation. The following is the best program I have found for gyno issues:


Nolvadex @ 20 mg/day.
Letro @ 2 mg/day.
Topical DHT preparation (concentration can vary), applied to the area 2X/daily. 

Continue with this program until you stop seeing results."


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## walkertxranger (Apr 2, 2014)

In my last reply I asked for sage advice from someone I thought had a wealth of personal information, and possibly personal experience with gynecomastia, and information of where my logic/information/understanding is off.  I get in return, that I am misinformed, that half of what I say is wrong, that I am bashing, and I am looking more and more silly, and to explain how I think an AI works.  
So... since I do have time to spoon feed:   There are two classes of Aromatase Inhibitor, one that binds preferentially to aromatase, and one that is a suicidal inhibitor of aromatase.  Both prevent aromatase from acting on test to convert into estrogen.  No estrogen, means no proliferation of the gland.  Develop= cell division and growth, I don't know where this swelling thing or women going through puberty came from.  The fat deposits around mast cells in a breast, a breast is certainly not all gland.  I never made those comparisons.  I have never acted like I know it all, in fact the thread you are responding to was asking for information, hoping for some good sound advice, since I thought you may have personal experience, or be a repository of knowledge.  You apparently have neither, you do however have enough time to tell me you don't have time to spoon feed me information, tell me I look silly, etc.   If you had anything really backing your claims, except misunderstanding, and maybe a poor grip on the english language, I would have been happy to hear you.  
I've tried AI Femara, and if it was real it did nothing except give me the side effects.  I took Arimidex, nothing. I am taking Raloxifene, no real help. I took Toremifene, and it stopped hurting, and gynecomastia got smaller, with no rebound. That's my broscience. Everything else is what I have read, studied up on, and trying to process.  
I wish everyone that is working to undo gyno, whether its from puberty, or from a mistake with anabolics.  Let's get some good information from real trials.


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## walkertxranger (Apr 2, 2014)

I have been using ralox for almost 1.5 months, started at 100mg a day for three days, and then dialed down to 50mg a day since.  Do you think AAS is appreciably different that pubertal gyno?  I am not sure.  I'm still on the torem bandwagon, I was using it at 60 mg/ day.  Just in the day 2 when my nipple didn't hurt any more. I'm ordering the torem again.  So much of these old threads are about use of DHEA, DHT, masteron, and competitive receptor site binders, and how balance of E2/test may be the culprit even when estrogen levels might be "normal".  If there is no test, the ratios may be the cause.  Tell me how you are doing


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## StanG (Apr 2, 2014)

walkertxranger said:


> In my last reply I asked for sage advice  from someone I thought had a wealth of personal information, and  possibly personal experience with gynecomastia, and information of where  my logic/information/understanding is off.  I get in return, that I am  misinformed, that half of what I say is wrong, that I am bashing, and I  am looking more and more silly, and to explain how I think an AI works.
> So... since I do have time to spoon feed:   There are two classes of  Aromatase Inhibitor, one that binds preferentially to aromatase, and one  that is a suicidal inhibitor of aromatase.  Both prevent aromatase from  acting on test to convert into estrogen.  No estrogen, means no  proliferation of the gland.  Develop= cell division and growth, I don't  know where this swelling thing or women going through puberty came from.   The fat deposits around mast cells in a breast, a breast is certainly  not all gland.  I never made those comparisons.  I have never acted like  I know it all, in fact the thread you are responding to was asking for  information, hoping for some good sound advice, since I thought you may  have personal experience, or be a repository of knowledge.  You  apparently have neither, you do however have enough time to tell me you  don't have time to spoon feed me information, tell me I look silly, etc.     If you had anything really backing your claims, except  misunderstanding, and maybe a poor grip on the english language, I would  have been happy to hear you.
> I've tried AI Femara, and if it was real it did nothing except give me  the side effects.  I took Arimidex, nothing. I am taking Raloxifene, no  real help. I took Toremifene, and it stopped hurting, and gynecomastia  got smaller, with no rebound. That's my broscience. Everything else is  what I have read, studied up on, and trying to process.
> I wish everyone that is working to undo gyno, whether its from puberty,  or from a mistake with anabolics.  Let's get some good information from  real trials.






walkertxranger said:


> I have been using ralox for almost 1.5 months, started at 100mg a day for three days, and then dialed down to 50mg a day since.  Do you think AAS is appreciably different that pubertal gyno?  I am not sure.  I'm still on the torem bandwagon, I was using it at 60 mg/ day.  Just in the day 2 when my nipple didn't hurt any more. I'm ordering the torem again.  So much of these old threads are about use of DHEA, DHT, masteron, and competitive receptor site binders, and how balance of E2/test may be the culprit even when estrogen levels might be "normal".  If there is no test, the ratios may be the cause.  Tell me how you are doing



Toremifene will work but the fact is raloxifene has a much stronger binding affinity to the e receptor in breast tissue making it the best choice by a fairly significant margin. Tamox and torem are second and are fairly comparable when it come to binding affinity to said e receptor.

Perhaps (just a guess here) you were asked to explain about ai's since you inaccurately made a statement asking how long someone thought an ai would block estrogen when in fact ai's do not block estrogen at all.

Of course there are 2 predominant causes of gyno. High estrogen levels and an out of whack androgen/estrogen ratio. For our purposes when it comes to steroid use, the latter is rarely the culprit. Under other circumstances however the latter may in fact be the cause. The only way to really tell what the cause is would be blood work, which in my opinion is the mandatory first step in any case involving gyno.

Im not sure where the attitude or condescension is coming from but if you lose it I will be more than hay to have an intelligent conversation on the topic where everyone could possibly benefit. That being said if you are a jerk off to me, whether it be in a direct or a round a bout way, I wont share dick with you on the topic.
Fair enough??


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## walkertxranger (Apr 3, 2014)

*AI removes estrogen*

My apologies to anyone that thought my condescension was aimed at them.  StanG, you have been helpful, informative.  My comment about AI may be misinformed and misinterpreted.  By remove estrogen from the equation, doesnt the AI specifically prevent conversion into estrogen thus "removing" it from the equation of free circulation.  I did not mean an interpretation that AI somehow binds to estrogen turning it into another compound.  After using letro, my joints hurt, my skin looked haggard, and I had severe hot flashes.  It seemed to drop the estrogen to 0 in my body.  Does the estrogen circulating just bind and get used up? SHBP increase and bind it up? Again, my apologies to you, or anyone that felt the ire of my message was directed at them.  Only one person using terms like spoon feeding and saying directly I don't know half of what I'm talking about, or calling me a know it all.  
Thanks 




StanG said:


> Toremifene will work but the fact is raloxifene has a much stronger binding affinity to the e receptor in breast tissue making it the best choice by a fairly significant margin. Tamox and torem are second and are fairly comparable when it come to binding affinity to said e receptor.
> 
> Perhaps (just a guess here) you were asked to explain about ai's since you inaccurately made a statement asking how long someone thought an ai would block estrogen when in fact ai's do not block estrogen at all.
> 
> ...


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## StanG (Apr 3, 2014)

walkertxranger said:


> My apologies to anyone that thought my condescension was aimed at them.  StanG, you have been helpful, informative.  My comment about AI may be misinformed and misinterpreted.  By remove estrogen from the equation, doesnt the AI specifically prevent conversion into estrogen thus "removing" it from the equation of free circulation.  I did not mean an interpretation that AI somehow binds to estrogen turning it into another compound.  After using letro, my joints hurt, my skin looked haggard, and I had severe hot flashes.  It seemed to drop the estrogen to 0 in my body.  Does the estrogen circulating just bind and get used up? SHBP increase and bind it up? Again, my apologies to you, or anyone that felt the ire of my message was directed at them.  Only one person using terms like spoon feeding and saying directly I don't know half of what I'm talking about, or calling me a know it all.
> Thanks



An Ai as potent as Letro could def reduce your e2  to zero or almost zero. It is powerful enough to prevent all aromatization of test to estrogen. The thing is this. In my mind that is not the most product approach. Estrogen is not all bad. It shoud be managed, not obliterated , even in a gyno treatment situation. It is crucial for bone mineral density, blood pressure, immune system function, inflammatory response, cholesterol regulation and IGF synthesis as well as glucose utake. Considering that gyno treatment attempts might take up to 6 months, that is too long to crush your e2 levels in my opinion. On the other hand if you did have high e2 as well as gyno, you could MANAGE your estrogen levels with say exemestane while taking a serm such as raloxifene to treat the gyno. There is no rebound (not that that is very clinically significant) with exemestane, It is hard to crush your estrogen levels while using it. It has a positive or at worst no impact on IGF and cholesterol. E2 can be managed with stane while being treated with ralox (or tamox or torem for that matter). Blood work being crucial of course.  
This is, IMO, the most prudent approach and the last resort pre surgery.


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## StanG (Apr 7, 2014)

1HungLo said:


> Hate to post this twice but does anyone know:


It is just one of the last places or stores of bodyfat that your body uses to burn for energy in males. Chest and stomach.
Back to the OP  if it is gyno in any way Ralox is the best answer and CEM is the place to get it. Its (ralox) hard to find as it is much less get quality product. CEM offers both, availability and the top quality rc's in the industry.


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## walkertxranger (Apr 9, 2014)

I am happy to report that I am seeing SIGNIFICANT reduction in the nipple that was so afflicted.  No tenderness, no pain, the "puffy" look what I would liken to the concussion look where one nipple was over-sized in comparison is all resolving rapidly right now.  I started a test booster, an epi clone, zinc, and another round of 60mg toremifene.  I have my doubts about my ralox source, it was not CEM, and when the tenderness and definitive asymetrical look started occurring again, I promptly went to what seemed to help.  I don't know if I am doing myself a service or a disservice with a prohormone that claims to reduce estrogen, does not convert, but will stop natural test production by my body temporarily.  The immediate results are miraculous.  This has been going on for about 9 months.  
Any thoughts in the group about SARMs or if using ANY prohormones should be reconsidered in a good course of treating gyno?  Prohormones may have been the reason this all started.


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## StanG (Apr 9, 2014)

I just think there are so many unknowns and lack of clinical dat on most PH's and their effects on endegenous hormones in the body that its a crap shoot not warth taking. Just my opinion.


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## Soujerz (Apr 10, 2014)

walkertxranger said:


> I am happy to report that I am seeing SIGNIFICANT reduction in the nipple that was so afflicted.  No tenderness, no pain, the "puffy" look what I would liken to the concussion look where one nipple was over-sized in comparison is all resolving rapidly right now.  I started a test booster, an epi clone, zinc, and another round of 60mg toremifene.  I have my doubts about my ralox source, it was not CEM, and when the tenderness and definitive asymetrical look started occurring again, I promptly went to what seemed to help.  I don't know if I am doing myself a service or a disservice with a prohormone that claims to reduce estrogen, does not convert, but will stop natural test production by my body temporarily.  The immediate results are miraculous.  This has been going on for about 9 months.
> Any thoughts in the group about SARMs or if using ANY prohormones should be reconsidered in a good course of treating gyno?  Prohormones may have been the reason this all started.





Did you have only nipple tenderness or was there a noticeable hard lump of already formed glandular tissue under the nipple?


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## walkertxranger (Apr 11, 2014)

It started 9 months ago with a severe pain, and what I noticed as a different color to my nipples.  Much lighter than the normal dark tan  and a hard lump on the upper portion of the nipple size of a lima bean.  I say lima bean because it was not round, it was that exact shape, like a rounded crescent moon.  It got larger and fattier?  until if you pushed from the side of the pec at the nipple, it was noticeable as a quarter sized discoid lump that would move in unison as you pushed on it from the side.  At the bottom of the pec, it appeared to have a line of fatty tissue that connected to it.  If I worked pecs that day, it could not be noticed, but was apparent in the mornings and always had a more rounded appearance.  At the 3rd day of toremifene, which is about 6 months in to experimental solutions, a visit to the endo, vitamins, no offending prohormones, natural test boosters, letro, and arimidex, the tenderness stopped.  I didn't remember what that soreness, irritation, dread for coming into contact with that nipple even felt like any more.  The culprit was either natural test boosters and my body, or the ratio of test to estrogen, and possibly an imbalance, speculative, but I was not taking anything that warned of side effects of gyno.  It was all supposedly in these classes of estrogen reducing, and natural test building.  But, it happened.  

At the end of torem 60mg/day absolutely no pain, the lump under was not hard, it was doughy much more like fat.  I don't believe a gland turns to fat, but maybe it was just replaced with fatty tissue, and became more diffuse???  The nipple was still puffy in comparison after, and that is what seems to be resolving now, I am hopeful.  

Any other questions please ask.  don't know my current bf%, but I have a defined 4 of 6 pack, and 180lbs at almost 6'0".  You can see my serratus muscles, there is no pinching anything on my arms, legs, or glutes.  I think its about 10% plus or minus.  

thanks for reading.  

Walker


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## walkertxranger (Apr 23, 2014)

I am happy to report that I am seeing further reduction of this cursed gland in my left nipple.  Don't give up hope in a couple of months.  This has been almost a year.  I learned some valuable lessons about the short and long of body building.  Keep the courage and consider the knife only as a last result, and after visits with a really good endocrinologist. 

It was painful three months ago since the beginning, very visible under a shirt, and at max size felt like a kidney bean at the apex of the areola.  Just a little puffy now, painless, I cannot feel the "lump" at all, and I credit toremifene, and possibly time.  
I just see too many people say nothing will help, and you NEED surgery.   Here is a dissent to that thought process


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## Soujerz (Apr 24, 2014)

walkertxranger said:


> I am happy to report that I am seeing further reduction of this cursed gland in my left nipple.  Don't give up hope in a couple of months.  This has been almost a year.  I learned some valuable lessons about the short and long of body building.  Keep the courage and consider the knife only as a last result, and after visits with a really good endocrinologist.
> 
> It was painful three months ago since the beginning, very visible under a shirt, and at max size felt like a kidney bean at the apex of the areola.  Just a little puffy now, painless, I cannot feel the "lump" at all, and I credit toremifene, and possibly time.
> I just see too many people say nothing will help, and you NEED surgery.   Here is a dissent to that thought process




While using the toremifene did you use any HRT dosages of Test?  Also how has your libido been on toremifene?


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## Elvia1023 (Apr 25, 2014)

For guys with gyno the cause is always vital to know. Tamoxifen has never let me down for estrogenic gyno. An AI should be run for many cycles to prevent gyno. But when you have existing gyno a simple tamoxifen cycle should do wonders.


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## Soujerz (Apr 26, 2014)

Elvia1023 said:


> For guys with gyno the cause is always vital to know. Tamoxifen has never let me down for estrogenic gyno. An AI should be run for many cycles to prevent gyno. But when you have existing gyno a simple tamoxifen cycle should do wonders.




How about this?

Nolvadex @ 20 mg/day.
Letro @ 2 mg/day.
Topical DHT preparation (concentration can vary), applied to the area 2X/daily.


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## Elvia1023 (Apr 26, 2014)

Soujerz said:


> How about this?
> 
> Nolvadex @ 20 mg/day.
> Letro @ 2 mg/day.
> Topical DHT preparation (concentration can vary), applied to the area 2X/daily.



If it's very bad then yes but probably unneeded for most. I have had bad gyno before and 20mg nolva over a few weeks sorted me out. Your protocol should definitely do the job though.


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## Soujerz (Apr 27, 2014)

Elvia1023 said:


> If it's very bad then yes but probably unneeded for most. I have had bad gyno before and 20mg nolva over a few weeks sorted me out. Your protocol should definitely do the job though.




How was your libido on the Nolva?


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## Elvia1023 (Apr 27, 2014)

Soujerz said:


> How was your libido on the Nolva?



Nolva always gives me a good boost in libido. It improves my cholesterol too (another reason I like to use it). Letro is the only thing that kills my libido when used in higher doses. Many factors (aas etc) come into play but I wouldn't be surprised if your 2mg Letro per day has killed your libido.


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## Soujerz (Apr 28, 2014)

Elvia1023 said:


> Nolva always gives me a good boost in libido. It improves my cholesterol too (another reason I like to use it). Letro is the only thing that kills my libido when used in higher doses. Many factors (aas etc) come into play but I wouldn't be surprised if your 2mg Letro per day has killed your libido.




Agreed i was just reposting a protocol suggested by someone else, I am going to try TAMOX first at 20mg a day, I am on HRT 200mg Test CYP weekly and .5mg ADEX every other day,  I was just wondering if adding in the TAMOX would affect my libido negatively or my gains since i know going high on my ADEX affects my libido and joints.


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## SuperLift (Apr 29, 2014)

Running the RALOX at 60mg/day.. Not sure, but it may be starting to help..  Will keep everyone updated.


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## Elvia1023 (Apr 30, 2014)

Soujerz said:


> Agreed i was just reposting a protocol suggested by someone else, I am going to try TAMOX first at 20mg a day, I am on HRT 200mg Test CYP weekly and .5mg ADEX every other day,  I was just wondering if adding in the TAMOX would affect my libido negatively or my gains since i know going high on my ADEX affects my libido and joints.



Less is more when it comes to long term use of AI's and SERMS. 20mg tamox should be good for you. Let me know how you get on with it


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## Soujerz (Apr 30, 2014)

Elvia1023 said:


> Less is more when it comes to long term use of AI's and SERMS. 20mg tamox should be good for you. Let me know how you get on with it




Ill let you know gonna order Tamox on monday or tuesday.


Again did taking TAMOX for your gyno AFFECT your libido?


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## Elvia1023 (Apr 30, 2014)

Soujerz said:


> Ill let you know gonna order Tamox on monday or tuesday.
> 
> 
> Again did taking TAMOX for your gyno AFFECT your libido?



Yes it increased my libido and got rid of the gyno so can't beat that


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## mr.buffman (May 17, 2014)

Ralox did nothing for me! Might give tamoxifene a try


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## Soujerz (May 19, 2014)

Been using Tamox at 20mg daily feel likes gyno in left nip is reducing but right nip seems to be the same size.


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## MI1972 (May 19, 2014)

Would tamox work on a lipoma underneath the nipple?


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## StanG (May 19, 2014)

A limpoma is fatty tissue not glandular growth. I dont see how tamox or any serm or ai could do anything in that case


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## MI1972 (May 19, 2014)

Yeah, I didnt think so..  Looks like an eventual date with the surgeon


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## StanG (May 20, 2014)

Soujerz said:


> Been using Tamox at 20mg daily feel likes gyno in left nip is reducing but right nip seems to be the same size.



how long have you been taking it? It takes months for gyno to be treated. Most gyno studies run for 6 months. usually it takes at least 8 weeks to see significant improvement.


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## Soujerz (May 20, 2014)

StanG said:


> how long have you been taking it? It takes months for gyno to be treated. Most gyno studies run for 6 months. usually it takes at least 8 weeks to see significant improvement.




Today is day 24 of using 20mg Tamox Daily.   But i understand from what i've read you want the SERM to do its thing for at least 8-12 weeks and if possible take a DHT cream or just take more Test which will convert to DHT but then you would have to up your A.I.,  The DHT breaks up the Gyno to some degree as long as estrogen is low and being blocked from the receptors in the Gyno tissue.  Ill continue to use for at least 12 weeks.


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## StanG (Jun 23, 2014)

Soujerz said:


> Today is day 24 of using 20mg Tamox Daily.   But i understand from what i've read you want the SERM to do its thing for at least 8-12 weeks and if possible take a DHT cream or just take more Test which will convert to DHT but then you would have to up your A.I.,  The DHT breaks up the Gyno to some degree as long as estrogen is low and being blocked from the receptors in the Gyno tissue.  Ill continue to use for at least 12 weeks.



You are correct. If you can get your hands on andractim gel that would be a nice addition.


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## Soujerz (Sep 8, 2014)

What's everyones opinion on adding in Masteron while running Nolvadex at 20mg to try and reduce gyno?


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## Amozoc (Sep 8, 2014)

Masteron its not AI  my friend why you do no use Letro


Sent from my iPhone using VPN Shield


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## Soujerz (Sep 8, 2014)

Amozoc said:


> Masteron its not AI  my friend why you do no use Letro
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using VPN Shield




I wasn't asking to use it as an A.I. but as a DHT derivative to help reduce the gyno.  Not sure if this would do anything or nothing at all.


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