# ZMA good to take while bulking?



## Maverick80 (Mar 5, 2004)

I hear ZMA is good to take because it increases recovery and naturally increases testosterone levels. I'm trying to gain some weight, so would this stuff be a help when added to a bulking diet? Or is it just a waste of money? Any side effects? I read that in a study it raised testosterone levels 33% in some people. Couldn't this be bad?

Thanks for any info.

Maverick


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## Vieope (Mar 5, 2004)

_ I can´t understand how it increases testosterone. 
Somebody can explain that to me ? Maybe it is just indirectly._


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## Jezziah (Mar 5, 2004)

Dude its all smoke and mirrors; under controled conditions, maybe, it increased testerone levels in rats by accident one day...I took it for a couple of months 2 years ago...and I got a few zits.  Which may or may not have had anyhting to do with the ZMA.  Get some creatine at least that yields tangible results.


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## brodus (Mar 5, 2004)

I think it's legit because athletes and bodybuilders many times develop deficiencies in magnesium and zinc, and this would be a good supplment.  Some people say it helps them sleep, which would also support anabolism.

It's not going to take your test levels above what you can naturally produce. It's just going to maximize your ability to produce test.  Use ZMA at night and do a lot of whole body lifts, and you will see an increase in test.  

Also, it's cheap, at $10 for a month supply.  I take Dymatize Z-Mass, and it also has NAC and Tribulus Testerris in it, for $10 a month.  I figure it's worth the cost.

And there were studies done on athletes, not just rats.


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## instant (Mar 5, 2004)

great for sleep and for the price I keep taking it.  dreams you get are incredible.


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## JoeyM (Mar 5, 2004)

ZMA dreams are the some of the oddest dreams I've ever had. I buy it just for that


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## Vieope (Mar 5, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by brodus *_
> I think it's legit because athletes and bodybuilders many times develop deficiencies in magnesium and zinc, and this would be a good supplment.  Some people say it helps them sleep, which would also support anabolism.



_ That is the same thing as saying that because someone doesn´t drink water, when they start drinking again it would increase testoserone levels. 

Anyway, I heard for sure that for dreams it is great.  _


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## brodus (Mar 5, 2004)

> That is the same thing as saying that because someone doesn´t drink water, when they start drinking again it would increase testoserone levels.



What's you're point? 

If you need it and it boosts test, I don't get the problem?

You started a thread about how Creatine DOESN'T work and yet you still use it, and this stuff costs less and does work for a lot of people.  Lots of natural BB use ZMA and have only good things to say.  Read the science behind it. It's valid.
Your logic is flawed.



You have very odd logic.


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## Vieope (Mar 5, 2004)

_ What I said about creatine is that it doesn´t work like THAT, it gives me benefits but not a LOT. 
About the ZMA thing and testosterone, if you have deficiency in some micronutrients, it probably will have a bad effect on testosterone levels. It doesn´t exactly means that increases testosterone levels. Do you see my point ?_


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## brodus (Mar 5, 2004)

I guess I see whee you're going, but Zinc and Magnesium aren't macronutrients, they are necessary minerals with an established USRDA.  

Working out puts stress on your body, thus increasing you dietary needs.  

There is science behind what I am saying:



> The most talked about study is the following. Lorrie Brilla, PhD, a sports performance researcher at Western Washington University, recently reported that ZMA significantly increase free testosterone levels and muscle strength in NCAA football players. These ZMA study results were presented by Dr. Brilla on June 2, 1999, at the 46th Annual Meeting of the American College of Sports Medicine in Seattle, WA, and were published in the official ACSM journal, Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, Vol. 31, No. 5, May 1999.
> 
> Specifically, Brilla reported that "a group of competitive NCAA football players who took ZMA nightly during an eight-week spring training program had 2.5 times greater muscle strength gains than a placebo group. (250% better results!) Pre and post leg strength measurements were made using a Biodex isokinetic dynamometer." The strength of the ZMA group increased by 11.6% compared to only a 4.6% increase in the placebo group.



This is particularly interesting, because competitive football players are much closer to the people on this board than a group of post-menapausal women, or rats, the subjects of studies that many other supplements are based on.

Taking Zinc and Magnesium in a precise dose does in fact exert a positive influence on test in an anabolic environment.

Furthermore, it is likely that most serious athletes are deficient:



> Any bodybuilder looking to gain strength, increase athletic performance, and muscle mass should consider taking ZMA. There have been many studies showing that most athletes are deficient in zinc, magnesium, and vitamin B-6. This is not a good thing for any athlete! The effect of zinc depletion on muscle function was tested on eight male subjects. This study demonstrated that muscle endurance, or total work capacity, declines rapidly with acute zinc depletion and the degree of the decline is correlated with the reduction in plasma zinc concentration. Many other studies show that after participating in regular intense exercise athletes' levels of zinc and magnesium decreases deeply.



And we already know how zinc gluconate impairs the ability for a rhinovirus (common cold) to propogate, thus lessening the duration aand symptoms.  Zinc is good stuff.  It's even prescribed by doctors for a variety of medical conditions.


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## Kuzinbo (Mar 5, 2004)

Darn... I could use some sleep too... I could have bought a bottle of Z Mass PM for 10 bucks.... next time I will just to help me sleep.  I am all about freaky dreams too... Ever had one with two blondes one brunette, and a Nun with a paddle?   Then I would OD on ZMASSSSSSSS,,,,,


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## Vieope (Mar 6, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by brodus *_
> I guess I see whee you're going, but Zinc and Magnesium aren't macronutrients, they are necessary minerals with an established USRDA.



_Yes, they are not macronutrients, like I said they are micronutrients. 

I think that I was not very clear with that water quote. 

What I am trying to say is that your body must be in constant form of equilibrium with all possible elements: vitamins,minerals,protein,fats,water, anyway everything. If you miss something, probably it will have a bad effect in different areas of you body. Let´s say that you take off your diet, carbohydrates, you don´t eat carbs anymore. I pretty sure that before you die , your levels of testosterone will be lower too. That doesn´t mean that Carbohydrates alone are responsible for increased testosterone levels. 


My point is that it is not that the compound of ZMA that produces more testosterone, it is the whole system working. The key word here is synergy. 


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You are right about the fact that bodybuilder needs are higher than a regular person and now I believe that the RDA is not good enough for us. One thing that we need to watch out though is not to exceed in fat-soluble vitamins & minerals. The effects of that are bad, really bad.

Look what happens if you exceed UL in the elements of the ZMA:

Magnesium:

- There is no evidence of adverse effects from the consumption of naturally occurring magnesium in foods.
- Adverse effects from magnesium containing supplements may include osmotic diarrhea.

Zinc: 
- Reduced copper status

Vitamin B6:

- No adverse effects associated with Vitamin B6 from food have been reported. This does not mean that there is no potential for adverse effects resulting from high intakes. Because data on the adverse effects of Vitamin B6 are limited, caution may be warranted.
- Sensory neuropathy has occurred from high intakes of supplemental forms. _


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## plouffe (Mar 6, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by JoeyM *_
> ZMA dreams are the some of the oddest dreams I've ever had. I buy it just for that




If you want weird dreams...

*Plouffe's Dream Stack*

1000mg Valerian Root
1000mg St.Johns Wart
1000mg Ginko Biloba 
6mg       Melatonin


It's awesome.


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## 22"bi's (Mar 6, 2004)

There is the other stuff people are taking to have weird dreams, ahhh crap, what is it called.....oh yeah....DRUGS....


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## Vieope (Mar 6, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by plouffe *_
> If you want weird dreams...
> 
> *Plouffe's Dream Stack*
> ...



_ I definitely gonna do a research about that.  _


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## Kuzinbo (Mar 8, 2004)

> 22"bi's
> 
> DRUGS!!!



Come on now... If I wanted to ask questions about MDMA or ACID, I would be on a different message board.....


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## plouffe (Mar 8, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Vieope *_
> _ I definitely gonna do a research about that.  _




Might be rough on the liver  -- Maybe throw in some Milk Thistle.


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## egodog48 (Dec 12, 2008)

I love ZMA....As a matter of fact, I started takin it in college and actually became one of the first supplements I literally saw results from within probably 2 weeks. Great stuff, especially for overworked athletes! ANd cheap too!  I personally love Bev nutrition, but zmass works too.  Just dont take it with milk.


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## Dodge (Dec 19, 2008)

Fuck creatine, it DOES have adverse affects atleast in some people- and anyone who says it doesnt is a total idiot because there is no real scientific evidence to prove either way, although case studies have gone both ways.

Zma is conclusive, it works. For me it has been the best thing i've ever taken.
Creatine was good for adding muscle mass quicker(although alot was water)
But zma appears to grow more in less time, and even increased my strengh in a week and a half of me not working out, and i havent had any side effects, and the possible side effects are very minor.


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## nni (Dec 20, 2008)

Dodge said:


> Fuck creatine, it DOES have adverse affects atleast in some people- and anyone who says it doesnt is a total idiot because there is no real scientific evidence to prove either way, although case studies have gone both ways.
> 
> Zma is conclusive, it works. For me it has been the best thing i've ever taken.
> Creatine was good for adding muscle mass quicker(although alot was water)
> But zma appears to grow more in less time, and even increased my strengh in a week and a half of me not working out, and i havent had any side effects, and the possible side effects are very minor.



dear lord are you misguided.

there is scientific fact proving creatine as safe and effective, just like there is proof that zma is useless. you are experiencing the magic of libido. seriously, read more post less. this is two nonsensical posts from you today,


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## Skib (Dec 21, 2008)

nni said:


> there is scientific fact proving creatine as safe and effective



in excess i could see it being hard on the kidneys though


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## nni (Dec 21, 2008)

Skib said:


> in excess i could see it being hard on the kidneys though



in excess anything is bad, simple fix, dont abuse it.


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## Dodge (Dec 23, 2008)

> just like there is proof that zma is useless. you are experiencing the magic of libido.


Could you be so kind as to link me or explain please?
All i find on google is case studies of how good it is and people either raving about it or just saying that it didn't do too much for them.


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## nni (Dec 23, 2008)

Dodge said:


> Could you be so kind as to link me or explain please?
> All i find on google is case studies of how good it is and people either raving about it or just saying that it didn't do too much for them.



zma is only effective in zinc deficient athletes, who are few and far between. zma is a victor conte scam, and has been an unquestioned supplement for years. i will post what an educated member at another board posted as i dont have the time right now to search my study links....

Bane..

A few myths and truths about ZMA:

Myth: ZMA is a patended formula.  

Truth: ZMA has no patent whatsoever. The only thing â?????patendedâ??? about ZMA is the name. The ZMA trademark can be found here http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=21b7m3.2.2. As it is obvious, no quantities of components, manufacturing process e.t.c. is covered. As long as the manufacturing company puts some ingredients together and calls it ZMA, it is, as far as the US patent office is concerned, ZMA.  

Myth: ZMA works, because it is scientifically designed and, to back this up, has a study conducted by Dr. Brilla  on June 2, 1999 which showed it to increase free testosterone by 30% compared to up to 10% loss on non ZMA group.

Truth: ZMA was created by Victor Conte, owner of Balco Labs. Victor Conte is not a scientist. He spent about 15 years playing bass in various rock bands (including Tower of Power), and when money started running out he opened up a holistic health center with wife. He shut this center down after a year and then opened up BALCO (Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative). At a sports medicine conference in 1997, Conte met Brilla and asked her to conduct  a study on SNACâ??????s zinc-magnesium supplement. In November 1998, Brilla and Conte presented their findings on a poster board at a meeting of the Southwest Chapter of the American College of Sports Medicine, in Las Vegas. There were made the claims that ZMA produced 250% greater strength gains compared to placebo, that it created â?????hormonal increaseâ??? on the subjects and that it was the only natural supplement that was clinically proven to increase testosterone.
What the press release didnâ??????t say was that Conte owned SNAC and it was simply an affiliate of BALCO. Nor did it reveal that Conteâ??????s SNAC had helped pay for the study or that Brilla had been aided by Jim Valente and Dr. Brian Goldman, BALCOâ??????s vice president and medical director, respectively. It also didnâ??????t report that of the 57 Western Washington University football players who signed up for the study, 30 quit. By the end, only a dozen players were using ZMA while 15 took a placebo.(1)
Furthermore, Brilla had in the past cpnducted studies on magnesium and itâ??????s effect on testosterone and strength in athletes and football players in particular. The ZMA study demonstrated results painfully close to the ones of the magnesium-only study she herself had conducted a few years earlier(4). Brilla was simply asked to repeat the study, using this time along with the magnesium some zinc and â?????surprisinglyâ??? the same good results came out.


Myth: ?????????????? contains the most bioavailable forms of Zinc available, aspartate and monomethionine.

Truth: Zinc aspartate has been data suggesting it to be an ineffective form of Zinc(5) and surely not any better than Zinc Sulfate, the most commonly used form(6). Zinc monomethionine has no negative studies on it for now, but also no literature proving it to be superior to other Zinc forms that exist.
As for magnesium aspartateâ??????s bioavailability, it stands in the middle, with other more potent forms existing(7,8)

Myth: â?????Hey, ZMA worked for me, my buddy, my neighbour and my dog. It made me 10 times stronger and biggerâ???

Truth: Placebo is priceless. While many ZMA users reported various gains and indeed ZMA can be as beneficial as supplementing with Zinc and Magnesium if you are deficient, ZMA has failed to elevate serum testosterone levels in healthy training males(9). Chances is, if you are a well eating and supplementing average athelete, you are not Zinc deficient and ZMA will do nothing for your testosterone. Another independend study involving 42 trained males that received only ZMA as a supplement showed that â????? no significant differences were observed between groups in anabolic or catabolic hormone status, body composition, 1-RM bench press and leg press, upper or lower body muscular endurance, or cycling anaerobic capacity. Results indicate that ZMA supplementation during training does not appear to enhance training adaptations in resistance trained populations.â???(10).  

Myth: â?????I donâ??????t care anyway. ZMA is cheap like hell and gives me better sleepâ???

Truth: Magnesiumâ??????s benefits on mood(11), insomnia(12) and cramping(13) are well documented. Zinc also has various benefits, provided no deficiency exists. The fact however remains that you can buy equal or even better Zinc and Magnesium supplements for 1/3 the cost. If you feel still comfortable dumping 10$ for a name then the author restâ??????s his case.

References:
1 Game of Shadows
2 Effect of magnesium supplementation on strength training in humans -- Brilla and Haley 11 (3): 326 -- Journal of the American College of Nutrition
3 United States Patent and Trademark Office Home Page
4 EFFECT OF MAGNESIUM-FORTIFIED SPORTS DRINK ON STRENGTH IN COLLEGIATE FOOTBALL PLAYERS 1423.Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 29(5) Supplement:250, May 1997
5 Bioavailability of orally administered zinc, using Taurizine.Duisterwinkel FJ, Wolthers BG, Koopman BJ, Muskiet FA, Van der Slik W.
6. Bioavailability of zinc from zinc-histidine complexes.Comparison with zinc sulfate in healthy men.
7Bioavailability of US commercial magnesium preparations.
Firoz M, Graber M.
8. Study of magnesium bioavailability from ten organic and inorganic Mg salts in Mg-depleted rats using a stable isotope approach.
Coudray C, Rambeau M, Feillet-Coudray C, Gueux E, Tressol JC, Mazur A, Rayssiguier Y.
9 Serum testosterone and urinary excretion of steroid hormone metabolites after administration of a high-dose zinc supplement.
Koehler K, Parr MK, Geyer H, Mester J, Sch??¤nzer W.

10 http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.org/site/pdf/Wilborn-JISSN-1-2-12-20-04.pdf
11 Rapid recovery from major depression using magnesium treatment.
Eby GA, Eby KL.
12 1: Aust Fam Physician. 1994 Mar;23(3):498.  
Insomnia and nutrition.
13 1: Acta Med Austriaca. 2004 May;31(2):37-9. [Magnesium as a food supplement]


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## Dodge (Dec 23, 2008)

Wow you sure know your oats, cheers...that's interesting, to say the least.
I do feel benefit of them though, and its not placebo. It gives me a 'raring to go' kind of feeling, and i can ignore the pain a bit more when i try and force a few extra reps

Perhaps i was low or deficient on zinc or magnesium.


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## nni (Dec 23, 2008)

then fix your diet and you will see even better results.


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