# When I Lose Control......I Like It!     Prop/Tren



## Cardinal (May 16, 2005)

*Monday, May 16, 2005*

*Planned Cycle*

*Red Dragon Labs*

*W  1-6:  100mg Prop + 75mg Trenbolone Acetate EOD
W 7-10:  Custom Nolvadex 40/30/20/20*

*Bodybuilding Goals*

Nothing Drastic.  This is planned as a short strength and minor recomposition cycle for summer.  I hope to keep any muscle tissue built.  This has yet to be a problem for me.

*Lean Body Mass: 5lbs give or take
Thermogenesis: I'll be happy with any fat loss achieved.  First time using Tren.*

*Strength Goals*

I haven't had a good experience keeping strength gains over the last year on my pushing work.  It seems like sometimes overnight, I lose a lot of what I have worked very hard for due perhaps to lack of CNS stimulation.  I keep muscle fairly easily on the otherhand on account of my high eating capacity.

Therefore I am going to work very hard on pulling work.  Particularly I am in good shape to work Deadlifts, Chins/Pullups, Curls and most any other pulling work you can think of.  Grip work will be included as well.  Pushing work will be done in higher rep ranges with a focus on hypertrophy.  As usual I will adjust what and how I train for strength to accomodate what I am taking.  I expect surprises and avoidance of injury is and will continue to be my main priority.

I will be doing cardio. Mainly the elliptical trainer and swimming.  Additionally, I will log some hours doing lawn care as that is my primary business right now, other than being a student full time.

*Starting Statistics*

*Bodyweight:  247 bloated
Gut: 41.5"
Arms: 17.75"
Blood Pressure: 127/73*

*Past Cycle History*

You can find most of it in the cycle info section at Anabolicminds.  My AAS cycle is logged at ironmagazineforums journal section.

*3 Short PH/PS cycles
1 Long Ester AAS cycle (Test E based)*

*Additional Supplements *   

*For Control of Gyno*

*Bromocriptine (2.5-5mg ED)
B6 (600mg ED)
Vitex
Arimidex (.25 mg ED at most)
Nolvadex (10mg ED)*

I am also planning a couple of other measures to try and keep gyno at bay.  My diet is going to be a eucaloric cutter more or less and I tend to notice fewer problems with gyno when I try a Protein Strictly Mother Fucker type diet.  I need a hypocaloric diet if I expect much fat loss anyhow.

Also, I may need to completely drop the Prop from my arsenal or greatly reduce the dose.  I shed hair very badly on Testosterone, and I am very gyno prone.  If my hair stack proves ineffectual, I may just rid myself of the problem by switching to a Tren only cycle for awhile, libido be damned.

*Hair Stack*

I don't plan to use the following unless I have to.  My best weapon so far has been simply getting rid of any testosterone used and also limiting use of AI's/anti-E's.  I have used most of these in the past and they seemed fairly ineffectual at the time.

*Nizoral Shampoo
Azaleic Acid
Spironolactone
Finasteride*

For the sake of brevity, these are the only supplements I am listing.  I don't have plans to use very many supps at all unless I really need to.  The gyno prevention, I see as a must however.

*Diet Information*

I am going to keep to 2g/lb protein when I feel I can.  I do however still have two *protein induced heart arrhythmias * that flare up much too often.  They seem to be at their worst when I combine a lot of protein with really high calories.  I will not be using whey protein at all as it directly causes me to have a sleeping arrhythmia right before bed each night.  I don't have a problem with taking Ephedrine, Caffeine, Nicotine or any other similar stimulants, although I don't plan to use many of these during this cycle.  *Main protein sources will be Tuna, Casein, Egg Protein and Leanish Beef.*  That will have to do.  Honestly calories will be a big problem.  I am going to try to keep them as low as I can by sticking mainly to protein.  But I make no major guarantees when the test kicks in.  Sometimes I go a little nuts.  That is another reason, I may go tren only part of the time or greatly reduce the test.  In that instance I might slightly increase how much Tren I am using.  Once again, I am aware of what this may do to my libido, but it may also be the only way to keep gyno down, hair loss down, calories low etc.  

*Start Date*

Soon, definitely.  I already have everything I need onhand.  I have not yet done equal time on, equal time off.  I took my last shot in early March.  I have been off of everything but my multivitamin and fish oil for the past month plus.  I am going to take a few days off of lifting right now before firing it up.  I will be eating a mild hypocaloric diet during this time and doing cardio.

Updates will be made daily or whenever I hit the gym.  I'll try to include as much detail as I can.

*Any and all comments are welcome and encouraged.  I am sure I have left some things out regarding my plan and I will be glad to clarify if needed.*


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## Cardinal (May 16, 2005)

I lied.  Again.  I am starting it up today.

Mother Fucker That Prop Hurts!!!!!!!!!!  But I can still walk, just a minor limp, thats all!  I'll be able to walk just fine in, hmmm, about 42 days.  Day One successfully complete.  I preloaded a few syringes to cut back on the work since I am doing this thing EOD.

I am starting B6 and Vitex today, bromo will commence tomorrow morning.  I am going to give it a few days to one week before I start nolvadex or arimidex simply because they both should cause me major shedding and I don't want to confuse shedding from prop with shedding from nolva.


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## Cardinal (May 17, 2005)

*Day 2
Tuesday May 17, 2005*

Modifications for the second day.  Upon advice from Rhino, I am dropping bromocriptine and reducing the B6 dosage somewhat.  I am already getting hypoglycemic from the bromo and would rather not deal with that side effect, especially since Vitex is supposed to do the same thing.

The pain from the prop injection is much reduced today.  It dissipated somewhat about 2 hours after the initial inject.  I am definitely not experiencing any swelling, which is a good sign.  

*Workout for Today*

Swam for about 30 minutes.  Need to work on building up my lung capacity somewhat.  I also went and paid money to go work out at my old gym this summer.  I like it better and the new one won't let me in their doors until May 31, 2005.  We can't be having that.  I don't intend to take that time off.  Thankfully the aggression hasn't kicked in yet.


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## ZECH (May 17, 2005)

Why only 6 weeks?


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## Cardinal (May 17, 2005)

dg806,

I am using all short esters and am not at all sure how I will react to being on tren.  I am actually hoping that I can make it all 6 weeks.  My biggest concern is that I may lose so much hair that I have to stop.  I am not all that confident in the hair care stack I am using now.  

OTOH, if things go well and I don't lose much hair, you bet I am going to run it 8 weeks.  Anything longer with tren and I would want the enanthate ester.  I am going to see how recovery goes from a short cycle before even considering tren E.


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## ZECH (May 17, 2005)

Yeah tren E will help on the # of sticks for sure. I bet you will lose hair no matter what you do especially if genetically inclined(mothers side).
I'm about willing to bet you like and say screw the hair!
You might get lucky and not get night sweats, but most do.


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## Cardinal (May 17, 2005)

I am looking forward to the night sweats.  Lets me know the stuffs working.  Yep, I am going to be pretty adventuresome with my hair.  I am not genetically inclined to go bald on either side of my family, but man do I shed on Test.  That is why I am considering dropping the Prop if I must before abandoning the cycle.  

I tend to go bald from the crown at the back first, so I may can make it longer than I think.  But yeah, I am probably going to love the stuff.  Especially as an endo.  Will probably wish I had gotten more than 4.5 grams of it.


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## Cardinal (May 18, 2005)

*Day 3
Wednesday, May 18, 2005*

*Workout*

*HS High Row 160x2x10, 220x10, 240x5
DB Bent Rows 110x5, 90x2x8
Curls 60x6, 55x6, 50x6, 45x6, 40x6, 35x6, 30x6*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 26:00, 400kcals, 75rpm, 170+ heartbeat*

*Workout Notes*

I made an effort to do pullups and chins, but my elbow was quite sore from doing TBDL's the other day.  In any event I don't think I would have been good for more than 2-3 at 244 lbs bodyweight.  Got some work to do on those.  I think I'll train them to increase my ability to do rep work.  Haven't lost anything on curls yet.  Still moving the 60's decently.

*AAS Notes*

I stuck myself in the ass about 10 hours ahead of time.  No pain, can barely feel it now.  It is probably just the location I shot, but I also heated the oil lightly.  I am using a trick I read on meso.  For glute shots I am putting all my weight on the other leg to relax as much as possible.  Upper outer quadrant of course. Didn't notice much else but slightly fuller muscles and having to be careful how I roll out of bed in the morning.  Haven't gotten any of the other sides I am used to on Test yet.  I am getting that weird feeling where I look forward to giving myself shots.  Hope it lasts.


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## Cardinal (May 19, 2005)

*Day 4
Thursday, May 19, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 245*

*Workout*

*19 Working Sets*

*CGBP 185x8, 195x6, 200x5
HS Decline 120x10, 140x7, 160x5
HS Incline 160x8, 200x7, 220x4
Leg Extensions 160,180,200x15, 220x12
HS Calf Raises 290x15+, 310x15+ 
HS Tricep Extensions 100x10, 120x10, 140x7
Laterals 30x10*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 27:00, 400kcals, 70rpm, 165 heartbeat*

I keep forgetting to take a blood pressure reading.  Will do so at some point.  Its not too high right now based on feel.

*Workout Notes*

Pumps were moderate, nothing special.  So the prop isn't fully doing its thing yet.  I have made a decision to rely more heavily on the Hammer Strength machines that I have access to on account of my joints.  Those machines feel very comfortable and I don't think I am as likely to risk injury.  The big three and a good bit of other stuff will still be done using free weights though.  1/2 and 1/2 mix probably.

It seems just knowing that I am on amps up my workouts somewhat.  I lost a little leg strength on the extensions, but the rest of my work was exactly what I expected it to be.  Some of the sets were a little too easy for me, letting me know the androgens are having their effect already.  I am not yet stronger and will post when I get near PR territory.

*AAS Notes*

The Tren has started to work its magic.  Last night I had insomnia and couldn't sleep for about three hours from 4 a.m. to 7 a.m.  I felt the now very familiar AAS CNS stimulation effect that I have felt so often in the past from SuperDrol and M5AA etc.  Same effect but amplified by the injectible form of the steroids I am using.  So about 56 hours after my first shots I am noticing the effects pretty clearly.  Insomnia like that shouldn't occur for me and prop should make me sleep like a baby.  Will bust out the melatonin forthwith if it doesn't improve in a day or two.

This morning was the first morning I noticed increased shedding of hair.  Seems its all starting to kick in at once.  I have been dosing my Test/Tren mix a little more frequently than first planned and will continue to do so for the remainder of the first week, then will revert back to my original eod plan.  Right now I am hitting the 36 hour mark pretty close with my shots.  

Libido is definitely up and thankfully my appetite seems pretty well in check.  Maybe it is the tren.  Good God I hope so.  Nothing to report in the way of excess sweating yet.  I was quite cool last night.  I expect all effects of the Tren including fat loss to manifest themselves by the middle of the second week.

So far I haven't noticed anything resembling puffy, sore or lumpy nipples.  They are tighter and harder than usual.  Maybe it is the tren and slightly reduced calories, but I am glad I don't have to start dosing Arimidex and Nolva yet, b/c I believe both will cause me even more hair loss from past experience.


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## Cardinal (May 20, 2005)

*Day 5, May 20, 2005*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 45:00, 715 kcals, 75+ rpm, 165-175 heartbeat*

*Notes*

I am going to lay off the cardio for a few days.  Knees are giving me some trouble.  I should know not to do it three days in a row.  I feel great afterwards though.

Rather than yack about it here, I started a discussion in the anaoblics section concerning how I am going to combat hairloss on this short cycle.  The link is as follows.

 Hair Loss Prevention


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## Cardinal (May 21, 2005)

*Day 6, May 21, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 245*

*Workout*

*Conventional Deadlifts 295x3x5, 225x10
GM 135x8, 185x4
Side Bends 2 sets
Weighted Ab Machine 1 set*

*Workout Notes*

Started light and easy on the deadlift.  My form felt excellent overall and I experienced no pain whatsoever.  Good start.  I am weak as a kitten on goodmornings though.  I had a partial ab cramp after my first set of crunches.  This typically happens when I am on anabolics.  So I stopped there.  I had intended a longer more intense ab workout to finish the day, but it just isn't in the cards this cycle.

*AAS Notes*

For now, I have dropped the Prop out of my arsenal based on feedback from other users and my current shedding problem.  I also haven't been having luck with Spiro/AA/Nizoral so far, so I am going to see if this fixes the problem.  

I am really hoping to notice a significant strength boost by Monday.  Definitely I am still noticing appetite suppression from the Tren.  Can't reiterate enough how pleasant that is.


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## M.J.H. (May 22, 2005)

Workouts are looking solid bro, keep it up. Good luck with the cycle as well.


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## Cardinal (May 22, 2005)

*May 22, 2005*

*Workout*

*Lawn Care 6.5 hours*

*Notes*

Didn't do so great on the diet front.  Definitely went way too long without anything to eat.  Good for fat and water loss, bad for building muscle.  

Doing lawn care all day is a heck of a lot different than the type of cardio I do in the gym.  Not exactly back breaking stuff but...Elliptical is so much more desirable.  I am going to try to stay indoors the next couple of days.

I am sitting here with the remainder of my beef, about 1.5 lbs and am going to chow down.


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## Cardinal (May 22, 2005)

MonStar said:
			
		

> Workouts are looking solid bro, keep it up. Good luck with the cycle as well.



Thanks for checking in bud.  I am really hoping for a good bit from tren in the way of fat loss.  If it works like I hope, I will have found a damn nice thermogenic.  

I have been keeping up with your journal also.  Looks like you are at a very good all around weight.  Congrats on a successful cut. Good luck with the power, rep range, shock!


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## Cardinal (May 23, 2005)

Cardinal said:
			
		

> *Wednesday, May 18, 2005*
> 
> *HS High Row 160x2x10, 220x10, 240x5
> DB Bent Rows 110x5, 90x2x8
> ...



*May 23, 2005*

*Bodyweight 243*

*Workout*

*18 work sets*

*HS High Row 240x9, 250x6, 250x5
Curls 60x7, 55x6, 50x6, 45x6, 40x2x6, 40x9
Lat Pulldowns 200x5
HS Low Row 180x10, 200x9, 220x8
Reverse EZ Bar Curls 90x2x10
Reverse Wrist Curls 30x5, 30x4*

*Workout Notes*

It's on!  It's definitely on!

Exactly like I had hoped, after one full exercise split and 5-7 days I notice obvious strength gains.  Were it not for the slight pain in my quad this morning after inject, I couldn't tell the difference between the CNS stimulation provided by 75+mg Tren EOD and a high dose SuperDrol/M5AA (30-40mg/60+mg ED for example) combo.  The aggression was there.  Speed strength.  Joints felt good.  Slight muscle cramping in chest as usual.  I could have easily trained another hour.  Biceps took a beating today.  Will feel it tomorrow.

Recovery seems good.  Muscles are fairly full.  I did this workout after about 3000kcals yesterday and 6.5 hours of moderate lawn care.  Insomnia is still going but pretty darn managable.  I probably feel some aggression outside the gym, but business is pretty stressful now, so it is tough to say if it is worse than usual.  Probably is though.

Only time will tell how Tren fairs compared to the other PH/PS I have used to build strength in the past.  All I can say right now is that I am motivated as all hell.


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## Cardinal (May 24, 2005)

*May 24, 2005*

*Workout*

*Lawn Care 8.5 hours*

Definitely didn't intend to put in this much time out on the lawns but I needed to, and it should be quite good for fatloss.  Will be back in the gym tomorrow.

*AAS Notes*

Last night I felt an incredible amount of aggression.  Quite a few thoughts filled with violence/hatred.  Had insomnia for about 4 hours.  Not very typical for me.  I believe it is a combo of the tren and a somewhat stressful business week/month.  I felt a lot better later today.  Took 25 mg ephedrine to help out with energy throughout the day.


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## Cardinal (May 26, 2005)

*May 25, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 239*

*Workout*

22 Work Sets

*CGBP 195x5, 205x2x5
HS Incline 60,80,100x6, 110x4
HS Decline 60x8, 80x9, 70x12
Calf Raises 310x10, 330x10, 350x10, +2 sets
Lateral Raises 30x12
Tate Presses 35x8, 45x8
Flies 45x10
HS Shoulder Press 85x8, 105x8, 120x6*

*Cardio*

*Lawn Care 3 hours*

*Notes*

Water retention is really low after all the physical labor.  Strength was up just a bit, but nothing spectacular.  I could feel the CNS stimulation, but very little aggression this time.  I may go back to 36 hour dosings of Tren.  Will decide that within the week.  I have lost a small amount around the waistline, but nothing to write home about yet.

*Diet Notes*

Was doing well with the diet, but decided to go out for catfish last night.  My appetite was suppressed to the point that I could only eat about half what I usually did.  Consequently I did little damage.  Liking the Tren more every day.


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## Cardinal (May 26, 2005)

*May 26, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 240*

*Workout*

*Conventional Deads 225x5, 305x5, 300x5, 305x5
Squats 135x10, 155x7, 155x6, 175x5
Leg Extensions 3 sets*

*Cardio*

*Lawn Care 3 hours*

*Workout Notes*

I am a bit stronger.  300x5 was cake, 305 felt pretty heavy.  Squats felt fantastic with such light weight.  I think I'll work up in reps and keep the weight down on those.  Lower back was a little tight.  I think I'll take 6-7 days off b/f my next deadlifting session to recuperate.  

*Diet Notes*

Still noticing good appetite suppression.  I think I am going to cut calories a little more so long as my binging tendency doesn't come back.  

*AAS Notes*

Hair loss seems to have vanished.  Only thing I did was drop out the prop.  Problem seems to be solved!  I'll reintroduce very small amounts of Prop as I see fit throughout the cycle, but am going to keep a close eye on it.  

I am also going to start dosing the Tren more consistently at about 75mg every 36 hours.  Realistically, I am shooting for anywhere between 300-350 mg Tren each week.  I think without Test in there, that may be a more effective dose.  Also, I have the suspicion that most of the fat burning I have done so far has come from mild calorie restriction and a lot of lawn service work.


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## Cardinal (May 29, 2005)

*Friday, May 27, 2005*

*Cardio*

*Lawn Care 5 hours, moderate activity level*

*AAS Notes*

Hair loss is pretty much not happening.  Definitely a good thing.  I do however still have pain and a little puffiness in nipple area, but no small pea sized lumps.  Have been taking nolva since the inception of the pain.  Hopefully it is not from the Tren, but it looks like it could be.  Otherwise, noticing very good muscle hardness, much better than expected.


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## Cardinal (May 29, 2005)

*May 28, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 248*

*Workout*

11 Work Sets

*HS High Row 200x10, 250x7, 260x6
Curls 60x7, 55x2x6
Chinups 248x3
HS Low Row 220x8, 260x8
EZ Reverse Curls 90x10, 90x6
Lat Pulldown 180x8*

*Notes*

Strength is up.  Once again, just a little bit.  Nothing too spectacular, though I am now in PR territory on most of this pulling work.  

Appetite is also up somewhat.  That is probably what is responsible for the small 8 lb jump in bodyweight I made overnight.  Will have to take some measurements.


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## Cardinal (May 29, 2005)

Definitely some significant strength gains over a four day period.  


> *May 25, 2005*
> 
> 22 Work Sets
> 
> ...



*May 29, 2005*

*CGBP 185x10, 205x6, 215x5
HS Incline 80,100x6, 115x6, 120x5
Lateral Raises 35x9
Tate Presses 45x8, 50x6
Pushdowns 45x6
HS Shoulder Press 150x5, whole stack
Pec Dec 2 sets*

*Notes*

These are the sort of strength gains that I like.  They come on so very fast.  I am hoping that by going 6-8 weeks on tren I can keep a bit more of it than usual.  I find it far easier to add weight than reps.  Even now trying to get extra reps on some stuff is like pulling teeth. Definitely stronger on Tate presses than I have ever been.

Joints actually feel really good with all of the CNS stimulation.  No noticeable bloat.  Good muscle hardness and vascularity.  Recovery is quite good.  Laying off the lawn care work has been a big help these last couple of days.

Appetite is unfortunately coming back with a vengeance.


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## Tha Don (May 29, 2005)

hey cardinal, sounds like the cycle is goin good so far, best of luck bro, i'll be following along

why all the gyno precautions? i take it you are gyno prone? what happened on your test E cycle? i might go and have a read through your first cycle journal, as i'm on something similar right now


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## Cardinal (May 29, 2005)

Well, the Vitex and B6 don't really seem to be doing anything.  I am having gyno symptoms now and they just aren't effective.  I am on Tren only at the moment due to hairloss from Prop.  I started dosing Arimidex today (have been hitting up Nolva for awhile), and hope that helps.  Next step will be to go back on bromo.  I am not as sure how to deal with progesterone gyno.  I am leaning toward just preventing it with Arimidex in the future.

I had a certain amount of gyno before I ever started AAS or PH/PS.  My first Test E cycle I found out just how quick it can hit.  Developed a lump seemingly overnight.  Nolva knocked it the heck out quick though.  It seems like I ALWAYS have puffiness, on cycle or off.  Kind of annoying.  The only changes that happen while on are pain, lumps and discharge.  Hence all the precautions.

You are welcome to read through any journals you want if they are of help to you.  They are all in the cycle info section at anabolicminds forums, including three prohormone cycles.

What is interesting about Tren so far is that I seem to be getting very few sides other than the gyno problem.  I expected to have more trouble than this.  If steroids didn't shut me down at all, I'd probably like to stay on this stuff indefinitely, haha.


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## Cardinal (May 30, 2005)

*May 30, 2005*

*Bodyweight 243*

*Workout *   

*Calf Work 5 sets
Leg Extensions 4 sets*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 26:00, 75-85 rpm, 400+ kcals, <165 heartrate*

My endurance was way up for some reason.  Heartbeat was down by about 10-15 beats per minute.  I had no problems running the elliptical over 100 rpm if needed.  All the buttons started beeping red on me.  Never had that happen before.


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## GFR (May 30, 2005)

I have only used tren once; is it really that bad for hair loss?


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## Cardinal (May 31, 2005)

*ForemanRules*

For me, not at all.  I am noticing virtually no hair loss from Tren Acetate at a dose of about 300-350mg each week.  Test E, Test Prop etc. is a whole other ballgame.  Major hair loss/shedding even at fairly low doses.  I am now going to do a little experimenting with the Prop to see what dose I can handle without going bald.  I suspect I will only be able to take 100-200 mg each week.


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## Cardinal (May 31, 2005)

*May 31, 2005*

*Workout*

*Conventional Deadlifts 275x5, 315x5, 335x3, 325x5
Low Row 200x9, 260x9
Timed Holds 405x2 sets
Shrugs 110x12*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 20:00, 75rpm*

*Notes*

Strength is up on the deadlifts.  Lats and Bis weren't quite recovered from Sunday's session, so I chose to hold off and make it a light day.


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## Cardinal (Jun 3, 2005)

*June 2, 2005*

*Bodyweight 244*

*Workout*

*CGBP 220x5, 205x6
HS Incline 120x5, 110x7
HS Decline 80x7, 70x9
Tates 35x13, 40x11, 40x11
HS Shoulder Press 130x7
DB OH Press 60x9*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 20:00, 80+ rpm*

*Notes*

Endurance is still nice and high.  Still sweating a lot in the gym as usual.  No noticable night sweats yet however.  Seems like most folks get them on Trenbolone.  Not me so far.  Blood pressure feels pretty high, but not as high as it felt on a major bulk.  

I'll give an update at the end of one month on Tren regarding bodycomp changes.  So far they have been modest.  A bit more muscle (not a lot), a bit less fat.


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## Cardinal (Jun 3, 2005)

*June 3, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 244*

*Workout*

*HS High Row 260x6
Chins 244x2x5
Curls 65x4, 60x6, 55x6, 50x6, 45x9, 40x10
HS Low Row 260x9, 280x5, 300x5
Wrist Curls 30x2x5, 50x12*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 20:00, 82 rpm*

*Notes*

I think I may make a few minor adjustments to my workout.  Just to switch things up a bit.  I am definitely going to focus on being able to do more chinups.  Next workout will be a squat/leg day.  Need a day off from deadlifting.  I think I may follow the P/RR/S basic template for awhile starting with rep range week.


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## Stu (Jun 3, 2005)

Are you getting any sides with the bromo? it makes most people feel shit. Dostinex is supposed to be alot better


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## Cardinal (Jun 4, 2005)

Stu,

I am not taking any bromo right now.  But I do get side effects from it as I have used it in the past.  Mood is very bad, slight nausea when eating (a good thing = appetite suppression), definite hypoglycemic episodes.  

I tried Vitex and it seems ineffectual.  Dostinex will probably be the next thing I try, esp. if I end up running deca or tren again soon.  For now I will probably go back on bromo if my condition worsens.  I don't like the way it makes me feel.


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## Cardinal (Jun 4, 2005)

*June 4, 2005*

*Elliptical 60:00, 65 rpm*

Can't say I didn't do my cardio on this cycle!  This was really easy for me, but it got to my knees pretty bad once I hit an hour on the elliptical.


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## Cardinal (Jun 5, 2005)

*June 5, 2005*

*Leg Day*

*Squats 135x8, 155x8, 175x8, 195x7, 175x8
Leg Extensions 60,70,80x20, 90x15*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 35:00, 525 kcals, 75 rpm*

*Notes*

Yes my top set of 195x7 on squats does represent a significant strength gain =D  I am quite weak overall.


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## Cardinal (Jun 6, 2005)

*June 6, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 243.5*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 65:00, 68rpm, 1000kcals*

*Workout*

*Incline DB Press 50x8, 70x8, 80x7, 80x6, 70x8
JM Press 135x2x8
HS Incline 80x8
Pushdowns 30x10
Tates 40x11, 40x11
Flies 45x10*

Did my workout after cardio.  Strength was down a bit as a result.  I did switch up the movements I normally train and tried to keep the rep range higher.


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## Cardinal (Jun 7, 2005)

*June 7, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 245*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 65:00, 1000+ kcals*


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## Cardinal (Jun 8, 2005)

*June 8, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 248*

I injected some prop over my last five shots and I think this is what is responsible for the weight jump.  I am not complaining.  Definitely not gaining fat.

*Workout*

*HS High Row 200x6, 240x6, 260x5, 280x4
Neutral Chins 248x4
Curls 60x7, 60x6, 50x10
HS Low Row 260x9, 300x6
Wrist Curls 30x2x7*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 60:00, 70 rpm*

My right knee is giving me some hell.  I may have to start incline walking for awhile and do less elliptical work.  

*Notes*

I am definitely still gaining strength, although at a much slower rate than I was initially.  I came pretty close to getting another rep on curls, which is tough for me.  I feel close to my natural limit on that lift.  280 felt heavy on the high rows and I lacked some rom.  Chinups were hurting my elbow joint again, so I backed off after one set.  I still need to do Hammer Strength stuff to feel really good.  Training more like EOD still seems best for me, whether I am on or not.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 10, 2005)

*June 10, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 248*

*Workout*

*Conventional Deadlifts 225x5 275x5, 335x2x5, 315x7
Leg Extensions 60,80,90x15, 100x15, 110x10
Calf Raises 330x20*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 60:00, 900 kcals*

*Notes*

My form broke down quite a bit on the second set of deads with 335.  Still getting stronger though, so I am happy.  Cardio has felt quite good except for having knee problems.  I got a x-large knee brace and am going to try it starting tomorrow.  Overall, I am having almost no arrhythmic heart beats now and I think the cardio has been helping out somewhat.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 11, 2005)

*June 11, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 247*

*Workout*

*CGBP 225x5
HS Incline 250x5, 200x8, 180x8
JM Press 135x9, 135x2x10
Laterals 30x13
Tates 35x14, 35x12, 35x11*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 45:00*

*Notes*

I am up a clear 5 lbs on all my pushing work.  Strength is increasing at a rate about half as fast as during week 1-2.  That is still plenty for me.  

I am definitely noticing more night sweats.  I woke up this afternoon after a nap with quite a bit of wetness around my neck.  For better or worse I think I'll keep the dose a bit higher injecting 75mg tren every 24-36 hours for awhile to see if I notice more thermogenic benefits.  I must watch it though, as I may run out too fast that way.  I'd like to make it a full 8 weeks if possible.  I'll have to use a bit of prop to make it that long and I am definitely still losing a lot of hair when I include the prop.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 12, 2005)

*June 12, 2005*

*Cardio*

*Walking/Hiking 135 minutes, moderate pace*

*Notes*

Well, after taking stock of how much Tren I actually have, versus how much I would like to have, I seem to have come up a bit short (part of my shit is mixed with prop unfortunately).  So I have decided to add 30mg of Superdrol per day for the remainder of my cycle and keep the dose of Tren fairly low (a bit more than 75mg eod).  I seem to handle both compounds fairly well, so I don't foresee a big problem here.  No doubt I will get a strength boost from the SD.  

The prop I have injected over the last few days sure has made me look a lot fuller and better overall.  I really need to work on a way to limit hair loss.  If I could that, I think I would be set with prop.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 13, 2005)

*June 13, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 247*

*Workout*

*HS High Row 260x6, 280x4
Chins 247x2x5, 247x4
Pulldowns 180x8, 120x15
Curls 60x7, 60x6, 60x7
Shrugs 185x20*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 60:00 850 kcals*

*Notes*

I woke up with a good deal more muscle hardness.  Arms measured about an 1/8th inch bigger and the skin was a lot tighter.  SD sure is a nice compound for how quickly it starts to work and how good of a cell-volumizer it is.


----------



## Pirate! (Jun 13, 2005)

Damn, that is a lot of cardio! Since there hasn't been much net change in weight, how much fat do you think you have lost so far? Seems like 1/2 lb/day would be reasonable--given the drugs and exercise routine you are doing. I'm surprised you aren't using T3. I guess you sweat enough as is. Your planned pct nolva dose seems low to me. Are you taking into consideration that 30.4 mg tamoxifen citrate = 20 mg tamoxifen? Anyway, I'm learning from your experience, so thank you, and keep up the good work.


----------



## Purdue Power (Jun 13, 2005)

I just jumped on board, too.  I just learned quite a few things for my brief prop/tren cutting cycle that will start in about 3 weeks or so.  I appreciate all of the detail that you are putting into this.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 13, 2005)

*PirateFromHell:*  Thanks for the comments!  I can offer a little explanation for my current reason for doing so much cardiovascular work (it probably has limited some potential muscle gains).  It seems any time I try to lower calories even moderately, I regain my binging tendency, particularly the thought patterns.  I would like to get down to a reasonable bodyfat level therefore without significant calorie restriction.  So for this cycle, I chose the minimum calorie level that seems to make me feel mentally normal (food doesn't control all my thoughts and actions) and am eating around 4000-4500 kcals/day or so on a cut.  

I don't trust Tren to be all that thermogenic by itself.  Therefore I turned to doing a lot of cardio work to create enough of a caloric deficit to lose bodyfat.  So far I cannot see that it has harmed my strength gains which is a major goal for me.  I have patellar chondromalacia and even elliptical has been bothering it.  But I am choosing the lowest impact cardio I can and am working around that one.

The only reason I am not using T3 is b/c I am afraid it may aggravate my various heart arrhythmias.  I got my most recent one around Christmas and there is a minute but measurable chance that T3 was part of the cause.  I now think though that excessive caloric intake and protein intake was by far the bigger culprit.  

For bodyfat loss in the future, I will certainly look into T3 as well as GH when I am significantly older and could benefit from it.  But I am coming to realize how good I feel doing a lot of cardiovascular conditioning.  I think it will help my health in numerous ways over the years.  Mainly, I just need to find good non-impact ways of training my heart.  Generally, it will probably be good for me to avoid stims.  I feel better off of them than on.

In terms of how much fat I have lost so far.  I do notice looking better in the mirror.  Conservatively I have dropped about 3/4 of an inch off my waist (down to 40.5" now).  I should note however, that I strongly believe most all of it was from the cardio and little of it was from the thermogenic benefits of trenbolone.  Tren sure is an excellent steroid overall though, by far my favorite to date.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 13, 2005)

Purdue Power said:
			
		

> I just jumped on board, too.  I just learned quite a few things for my brief prop/tren cutting cycle that will start in about 3 weeks or so.  I appreciate all of the detail that you are putting into this.



Good luck on your coming cycle.  Did I read you were prepping for a competition soon?  If so, kick some ass!  I am glad we can mutually benefit from the exchange of ideas through these journals.  I certainly enjoyed reading your experiences on your first AAS run.


----------



## Pirate! (Jun 14, 2005)

Some non-stimulatory appetite suppresants like Hoodia might help you control the diet a little better. I think the diet is the key to seeing the results you want on this cycle. I don't like stims, myself, but I find that ephedrine with no caffiene is much more pleasant and helps a lot with appetite. It will be interesting to see how the superdrol works in this stack. Great journal, man!


----------



## redspy (Jun 14, 2005)

Bump on the Hoodia.  I take 800mg and it wipes out cravings for about 6 hours.  Your body adapts to it so it should be cycled.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 14, 2005)

Pirate and Redspy:

Thank you both for the recommendations.  I actually have some hoodia.  I think I'll give it a go for now.  And you are absolutely right.  The lower I can get those calories, the more fat I lose.  I lose fat really well on anything at or under 2500 kcals.  Where I have chosen to draw the line however, is when I feel like my body is deprived and I start getting the BED thoughts again.  Anyhow, I think I'll go take some of the hoodia.  Will report back in a day or several about how it works.  I am already getting good appetite suppression from the Tren, so this could be nice.  If not, I can always add nicotine gum/patch for awhile.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 14, 2005)

*June 14, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 246*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 63:00, 900 kcals*

*Notes*

I am running a short trial with hoodia to see what sort of an effect it has on my appetite.  Given its somewhat foul taste, methinks it may prove a decent suppressant.


----------



## Pirate! (Jun 14, 2005)

Cap the Hoodia. I don't even want to know what an extract from a dried catus taste like.   
Are you taking some form of ALA?


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 15, 2005)

Thats a good idea.  It tastes just like you might imagine it tasting.  Somewhat like straight cayenne pepper, but not hot and definitely a lot more pungent.  I think I'll try capping it.  Need some practice capping stuff anyhow.  I am taking milk thistle as my liver protectant.  May pick up some NAC as well.  I have never used ALA or R-ALA.  I need to research its effects on insulin to make sure it wouldn't effect my heart arrhythmias.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 15, 2005)

Alrightly, I am well over 100 bucks the poorer now.  Got 1000 caps and a couple of bottles of SD.  I think I may lower my dose of SD just to save money.  20mg may be more than enough.


----------



## Pirate! (Jun 16, 2005)

I'm very interested to see how well prop/tren/superdrol is together. Are you still using the prop? I hope your connective tissue holds up on this stack.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 16, 2005)

*Pirate:* Right now, yes I am still using the prop.  I had intially completely let it clear my system after about the middle of the 2nd week to make sure that in fact the Tren wasn't causing hair loss and the Prop was causing it all (which was correct).  I have a bottle of Tren Prop and a bottle of Tren.  Was running kind of short on the plain Tren so I added back prop.  I am still losing hair substantially, but am using my old trick of just not combing it much and that seems to be helping a lot.

I am also concerned about the connective tissue.  For the most part I am going to be training higher rep ranges on exercises that are more joint protective.  Hopefully that be enough for this cycle.  There are a lot of factors to joint health and one of them definitely involves not doing stupid shit in the weight room, hehe.

I am actually even more concerned about the high blood pressure issue (tren is known to shoot it through the roof) when SD and Tren are stacked.  I'll see about getting a measurement.  I have some valsartan coming from some other country that should arrive within 10-15 days or so hopefully.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 16, 2005)

*June 15, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 245*

*Workout*

*Squats 135x8, 155x8, 175x7, 205x7, 225x4
Leg Extensions 6 sets*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 63:00, 900 kcals*

*Notes*

Am waiting on the caps to see about continuing the hoodia.  So far I noticed no effect from about 1g/dose I took each day.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 17, 2005)

*June 17, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 246
Blood Pressure: 141/73*

*Workout*

*CGBP 230x5, 185x9, 185x8
DB OH Press 70x8, 80x4
Smith BB OH Press 175x8
Laterals 30x13, 40x5
Tates/DB Bench 45x8, 50x8, 55x7, 60x6
Side Bends 90x20*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 60:00, 900 kcals*

*Notes*

I was at Sam's and decided to have my blood pressure check.  As usual the cuff was too small, but it gave a consistent reading as far as I could tell.  It was a bit lower than I expected, but still too high for my liking.  I have some valsartan coming and I will hopefully be able to start it during my cycle so I can check what sort of an effect an ARB has.

As usual, I was predictably stronger.  Felt like I had all sorts of energy and could lift for hours (with all the BSing I did in the gym today that is about how long it took).  I think the SD has kicked in.  Its about the right time at day five.

Regarding the dose of AAS I am using, I will make a report at the end as I have tended to vary it a fair amount.  I don't seem to be losing a lot of hair at the moment, so I am stilling going with a lot of prop.

For better or worse, I am doing my best to eat a bit less, hoping to accelerate fatloss somewhat.  

Missed writing in cardio yesterday.  Did it an hour as usual.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 18, 2005)

*June 18, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 244*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 90:00, 1310 kcals
Lawn Care 75 minutes moderate activity*


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 19, 2005)

*June 19, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 245*

*Workout*

*Conventional Deads 345x5, 315x7
Chins 245x2x5
HS High Rows 200x10, 180x12
HS Low Rows 200x12, 200x12
Curls 60x8, 65x4*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 60:00, 800+ kcals*

*Notes*

I got a 10 lb PR on the deadlifts but my form was not good and I was rounding my back too much.  Just felts plain too heavy.  Next go round I will either just stick with the same weight or maybe work a few singles.  My legs shake a heck of a lot on the way up.  That is not a problem on reps 2-5.  Whole workout sort of felt a bit too heavy.  I did finally get another rep on curls though.


----------



## Pirate! (Jun 20, 2005)

You must have made significant LBM gains to have not lost much weight. Are you still taking waist measurements? Of course those will be higher than the true value due to bloat.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 20, 2005)

*Pirate:*  I am certainly hoping I have made significant LBM gains, but I am not betting on it.  SD is a heck of a cell-volumizer, and Test always keeps me pretty full.  Other than my bodyweight staying high, I am not getting other indications that I am building muscle.  I'll pretty much have to wait until everything clears my system and PCT is over to make a determination on that.  Building muscle is a pretty much a distant third on my list of goals after Strength and Fat loss. 

I'll see if I can get a decent waist measurement tomorrow morning.  I stuffed up pretty good tonight and skipped cardio today, so if the tape measure reads less, I can certainly be content that I am making progress.

I can see why people always say to run a cycle like this plenty long and not stop after only 3-4 weeks.  Just more time to get good results out of it.  

On a side note, I am quite interested in what you are running now as joint protection.  I may consider a very similar cycle sometime within the next year or two.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 21, 2005)

*June 21, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 243.5*

*Workout*

*Incline Bench 135x7, 155x7, 175x7, 195x2x7
DB OH Press 60x2x8, 60x9
Pushdowns 30x10, 30x12, 40x10
Flies 40x15, 40x10*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 60:00, 850 kcals*

*Notes*

Took the day off from cardio yesterday.  It felt good to be off and it felt even better to get back to it today.  I went with a light workout switching the exercises I normally do substantially.  My joints have been giving me a little trouble.  I think partly it is due to the lowered cho and calories of late.

*Fat Loss So Far*

I took a waist measurement this morning before breakfast.  At about 243.5 lbs, my waist is down to just over 40".  So I have lost at least an inch thus far with no noticeable muscle loss at all.  Arms are measuring the same size as when I started.  What additional fat I lose on this cycle is gravy and will help me move toward my longer term goal of getting a 38" gut.  Regardless of whether or not I have built new lbm, I am quite pleased thus far with the recomp effect of what I am taking.  I have to say though, I expected this from something like Prop/Tren.


----------



## Pirate! (Jun 21, 2005)

The numbers can never tell the whole story. I'm glad you are pleased with the results you are seeing. I would never want to do that much cardio, but I can control my diet well. 



> On a side note, I am quite interested in what you are running now as joint protection. I may consider a very similar cycle sometime within the next year or two.


 I am running Nandrolone Phenylpropionate for my joints, and it is awesome. I'm running it with a low/moderate dose of test prop and some d-bol right now. I use 100mg NPP EOD.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 22, 2005)

*June 22, 2005*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 65:00, 925 kcals*

*Notes*

Still noticing really high energy levels and endurance overall.  It will be interesting to see how much of it remains after the cycle is over.  I have a tendency to think that a lot of it is just caused by me getting in better cardiovascular condition in general and actually doing daily cardio.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 23, 2005)

*June 23, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 244*

*Workout*

*Squats 135x10, 155x10, 175x10, 195x9
Leg Extensions 50x15, 70x15, 80x2x15, 90x15
Lunges 30x1*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 63:00, 900 kcals*


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 24, 2005)

*June 24, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 244*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical: 65:00, 925 kcals*

*Notes*

Going to wait to take any more measurements, but fat loss seems like it is gliding along nicely.  I may have to reduce my prop dose again.  Hair loss definitely is still a big issue.


----------



## Pirate! (Jun 24, 2005)

Hair loss will always be an issue for guys like us. Have you noticed any growth of new body hair? Double edged sword for me: I get more hair where I don't want it and less where I do want it.

Your leg extensions seem a bit light for a guy your size. Have you made any strength gains in your legs? I wonder if all that elliptical has kept your legs from growing.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 25, 2005)

*Hey Pirate*

The leg extensions are really light.  In general I am very weak on all pushing exercises, especially on squats.  I do the leg extensions lightly to avoid excessive shear forces on the knee.  It just feels better overall.  I don't like the exercise that much, but I injured my back attempting to do leg presses and I just can't think of much else to do as a secondary movement for quads other than various types of squats (should probably just do more squats).  When I start to make efforts to gain mass on my quads again, I think high rep squats are going to be the main way for me to go.  The weight will have to be really light.  Even 225 felt too heavy on both my knees and back last time I did it.  195 was plenty.   

So far I have noticed no new growth of bodyhair.  Certainly nothing substantial since I started cycling last May.  The shedding is a royal pain in the head though.  I think I will always have problems with that and with gyno for that matter until I elect to have surgery.  

I have made strength gains in my legs.  Squats are up a good 30-40 lbs probably, but I am nowhere near PR territory and haven't tried that hard.  Deadlifts have been my main concern regarding strength work.  If I squat much that doesn't leave me with much gas for deads.  Nor does the strength carry over much at all.

I could give the slightest clue as to whether the elliptical keeps my legs from growing.  They look and feel a lot better with less bodyfat now.  That is the main difference.  And as far as I can tell, I certainly haven't lost muscle there.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 25, 2005)

*June 25, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 240*

*Workout*

*Chins 240x2x7
HS High Row 200x8, 220x8, 240x7
Isolateral Pulldowns 180x10, 230x6
Curls 60x7, 55x10, 35x20
C Curls 35x10*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 60:00, 855kcals*

*Notes*

Bodyweight is down due to a lack of Test Prop.  Had a little insomnia last night.  Overall, I just haven't gotten that much insomnia from Tren on this cycle.  It could of been b/c I was swallowing hoodia caps like they were candy pretty late in the evening.  Not sure if those are even working or not.


----------



## Pirate! (Jun 26, 2005)

I don't think the Hoodia is causing sleeping problems, but I know if my test dose is too low on a cycle I don't get quality sleep. For a week, I was sleeping like crap and I knew it had something to do with my dosing. I raised my prop from 50 mg to 100 mg EOD, and have slept much better since that night. I also load up on the hawethorne berry right before bed to make sure BP issues don't disturb my beauty rest.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 26, 2005)

*Pirate:* I think you are right.  I sure did always sleep like a baby when I had a really high dose of Test E in my system.  It is quite possible the hoodia has absolutely no effect on me at all, positive or negative.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 26, 2005)

*June 26, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 242*

*Workout*

*CGBP 195x5, 215x6, 235x5, 205x6, 205x5
DB Bench 80x8
Incline DB Bench 80x7
HS Tricep Extensions 100x15, 120x14, 120x15
Pushdowns 30x2x8*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 63:00, 925 kcals*

*Notes*

Mood is exceptionally good overall.  Not that it is ever all that bad, but I just feel friggin great for some reason.


----------



## Pirate! (Jun 27, 2005)

I'm glad to hear you feel so well. I keep reading so many people complaining about the sides of tren, especially bad coughs. You don't _feel_ Hoodia. It may not provide any additional appetite suppression beyond what drugs you are taking already do.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 27, 2005)

To borrow a phrase from some other dude that used Tren, "it makes me want to fuck, kill and eat everything that crosses my path not necessarily in that order".  

Thats how it is supposed to make you feel anyway.  In my case, you can add good appetite suppression and an overall peaceful yet powerful mental feeling most of the time (except a little there at beginning when aggression did flare up).  I am normally a calm dude anyhow. Cutting and cardio helps keep my BP lower I think, and I am having big problems with gyno (hardness).  That hasn't gone away but hasn't gotten worse either.  If it did I would surely express some dostinex or C... or start taking my bromo forthwith.  I may try that in place of vitex and b6 b/f cycle's end just to see if it makes a difference over several days.  Sure don't like the mood bromo puts me in though.  I am not absolutely sure I could have run Tren completely by itself this long and still have such good libido.

Overall you are right though.  I feel good with few sides (relative to how many I normally get).


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 27, 2005)

*June 27, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 242*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical: 90:00, 1335 kcals*

*Notes*

Cardio felt really easy today, so I did a little extra.  That and a high general activity level should certainly boost fatloss.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 28, 2005)

*June 28, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 241*

*Workout*

*Conventional Deads 135x10, 225x10, 275x10, 315x8
Squats 135x10, 155x10, 175x10, 195x9
Leg Extensions 70x14, 90x13, 110x10*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 65:00, 925 kcals*

*Notes*

Workout went really well.  It was definitely tough though.  Leg day with deads in there always is.  I decided not to load up too much weight on the deadlifts, preferring instead a lighter workout.  Squatting felt good to me.  Last set was appropriately challenging.

I didn't feel much like doing cardio after squats, but once I got on the machine it felt fine.  My heart rate has only been about 125-130 lately at 65rpm on the elliptical.  So it is feeling pretty good overall.

Nothing much new to report in the way of androgens, except that some of the puffiness has gone away since I dropped out the prop.  So far libido is still strong.


----------



## Pirate! (Jun 29, 2005)

I takes a brave man to follow deads with squats then an hour of elliptical. It seems a bit self defeating to me to tear down your muscles then spend so much time doing cardio immediately after and therefore delay your pwo meal until about 90 min after lifting. You could be using a lot of that freshly worked muscle as energy during lengthly cardio sessions at that pivitol time. Then again, the anti-catabolic effects of tren might make a huge difference in that regard. Is AM cardio immediately upon waking an option? You could probably get away with burning more fat/less muscle with that hour of cardio.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 29, 2005)

*Pirate:*  Thanks again for the advice.  What I am doing is definitely not at all an optimal way to keep muscle tissue.  If I were doing this natty style, my plan of attack would be all together different and the results probably more frustrating and slow.  I wouldn't be surprised if I am compromising some of the gains.  But muscle gains are almost a non-priority for me now.  I'll get so much more so much more easily bulking, I am not even worrying about it.  And with a 39+" gut, I realistically I need to lose more flab.

At the moment I am relying almost totally on the Tren to spare muscle tissue.  I am going to push it to what limits I can tolerate just to see if there is even a remote chance I might lose muscle on Tren.  To this day my arms measure exactly what they did when I fired up the cycle.  To be completely honest, I could be using more protein and certainly spacing out that intake more appropriately throughout the day.  I go too long without eating often enough.  But in my mind, the more I can restrict calories and the more I can move around safely and still recover, the better my fatloss will be.  At this moment, I am even willing to compromise further strength gains to lose the fat quickly.  I am more interested in bbing now than ever.  

I am also a reasonable endomorph, so even naturally I could probably get away with a bit more than the average go without dropping muscle.

Morning cardio is an option, though I would have to go to the gym to do it and it would probably be unnecessary to make two trips.  What I think would benefit me a lot is better pre-during-and post exercise protein intake.  I could even eat a meal b/w workouts and cardio if preserving and building muscle now were a concern.

Thanks again for the feedback.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 29, 2005)

*June 29, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 240*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 110:00, 1560 kcals*

*Notes*

Okay, maybe a little excessive on the cardio.  So it goes.  

Although I can't be certain, I think that the appetite suppression from Tren is dose dependent (as it should be).  I am down closer to 75mg eod again to make sure I have enough to last me the full cycle and I am experiencing a bit more hunger.  Nothing out of control at all, but definitely noticable.


----------



## Cardinal (Jun 30, 2005)

*June 30, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 241*

*Workout*

*Incline DB 50x10, 65x10, 80x10
Chins 240x7
Pullups 240x4
HS High Rows 200x3x10
Curls 60x8, 65x4, 50x10, 60x7*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 95:00, 1350 kcals*

*Notes*

Predictably, after completely dropping out the Prop, my hairloss has all but subsided.  The small bit of shedding I am getting now is from low dose Nolva.

I have a case of runners knee that has been causing some discomfort when I use the elliptical.  It seems now though for some reason it is tracking a bit better and not really causing as much pain.  I am not complaining about that one.

*Bodyfat*

Waistline is definitely down to 39" now.  So I have lost more than 2" so far this cycle.  At the pace I am going I should be able to knock of at least another inch by cycles end.  I am honestly considering extending the cycle as long as the fat loss is working so well.  I know when I hit PCT I will need to be at least at maintenance to ensure proper recovery.


----------



## Cardinal (Jul 1, 2005)

*July 1, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 241*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 120:00, 1715 kcals*

*Notes*

Did a lot of cardio to bide time more than anything.  Looking for a second job at the moment and a girlfriend.  Good news is I think I have a shot at both.


----------



## Cardinal (Jul 2, 2005)

*July 2, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 240*

*Workout*

*CGBP 215x5, 235x5, 225x5
DB OH Press 60x10, 70x8, 80x4, 60x10, 65x10
Tate Press 40x10, 50x8, 55x2x6
Pushdowns 30x15*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 122:00, 1700 kcals*

*Notes*

Hmmm.  It looks like my strength has stabilized a bit.  I don't think I am using anywhere near enough drugs    :twisted:


----------



## Pirate! (Jul 2, 2005)

If there is one thing I have learned from IronMag this last year it is this: the answer is always to add more drugs.


----------



## Cardinal (Jul 2, 2005)

Hahaha, such a valuable lesson.


----------



## Cardinal (Jul 3, 2005)

*July 3, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 238*

*Workout* 

*Squats 135x10, 155x10, 175x10, 195x10, 220x5, 195x8, 175x9*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 95:00, 1335 kcals*

*Notes*

I just decided to do squats for my whole leg workout.  Didn't bother with leg extensions and I didn't plan on doing deads again until next time.  I got the workout done in less than a half hour.  Plenty of time to bask in the sun and swim.  Damn, its a hard life these days.


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## Pirate! (Jul 3, 2005)

Looks like the scale is finally showing a significant loss. You may have to find another job just to afford buying smaller clothes. It's nice being a college student in the summer. Otherwise, all summer is is a few months of hot weather. We are having triple digit temps here, so my swimming pool is my Oasis. Nice progress on the fat loss. I don't remeber if you made mention of it, but before and after pics would be cool. I'm just blown away that you do 90 min of ellipitical immediately after leg resistance training.


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## Cardinal (Jul 4, 2005)

*Pirate*  I didn't take any before pictures.  I figured and rightly that I was quite fat with a nearly 41.5" gut and that when I finished I still wouldn't be all that close to having abs.  And I have been at this level of bodyfat before.  I may take pictures when I finally get lean enough to see some definition major definition everywhere.  One big reason I haven't is that I am not too comfortable showing my face on the internet given my usage of controlled substances.  And if I am going to show a pic I really like to be able to put a face to a name.  When I get lean enough to show something though that may change.

The scale may not show a significant loss for long.  I added back a little prop in there.  I am however going to drop SD as I have no reason to run a really long oral cycle this time.  Prop/Tren is plenty.

Only having one job this summer is making it easy for me to do that much more cardio and to lift pretty much when I want (late morning).


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## Cardinal (Jul 4, 2005)

*July 4, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 237*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 100:00, 1430 kcals*

*Notes*

It's fourth of July


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## Cardinal (Jul 5, 2005)

*July 5, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 235*

*Workout*

*Chins 235x8, 235x7, 235x6, 235x5
HS Low Rows 180x12, 220x10, 260x10, 300x7
Curls 60x8, 55x8, 50x8*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 75:00, 1055 kcals*

*Notes*

Nothing much to note.  Weighed in a bit less than I expected to after the fourth.  I was pretty dried out though as I only lost a pound or so after 75 minutes of cardio.  

I think I am going to try about 3 months of Finasteride to see if I notice improvement in shedding.  I feel like I should give it an honest shot. Dosing will be twice a day, moderate amount (need to check).  If I can stop the hair loss from Test, I would pretty much be set as I know how to control the gyno and don't really get other side effects from it.


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## Cardinal (Jul 6, 2005)

*July 6, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 234*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 91:00, 1300 kcals*

*Notes*

Feeling good at the lighter weight.  Going to try to keep it kind of stable around 230-235 while still dropping fat.  Means a bit more food and maybe a bitmore drugs.  Cardio workin too well to stop.  My knees are feeling really good now.


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## Cardinal (Jul 7, 2005)

*July 7, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 239  * 

*Workout*

*DB OH Press 60x10, 70x6, 80x7, 70x7, 70x2x8
JM Press 135x10, 155x10, 175x7, 175x7
CGBP 185x8
Pushdowns 30x13, 40x7, 30x3x11*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 91:00, 1300 kcals*

*Notes*

I like Test Prop.


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## Pirate! (Jul 7, 2005)

You put on 5 lbs overnight. Damn... Finasterid doses range from 1 mg to 5 mg a day, but people running the higher doses report loss of libido. I've used between 1-2 mg/day.


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## Cardinal (Jul 7, 2005)

Yep, I am coming to appreciate Prop more and more.  All the more reason to figure out a solid way to limit hair loss.  1-5 mg corresponds well with what I remember people taking.  You bring up a good point about it lowing libido.  This might not be something I want to use during pct especially if I have a gf by that time which it looks like I will.


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## Cardinal (Jul 8, 2005)

*July 8, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 239.5*

*Workout*

*Squat 135x10, 155x10, 175x10, 205x8, 205x7, 205x6
Conventional Deadlifts 225x10, 275x10, 295x6*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 65:00, 915 kcals*

*Notes*

I ran out of gas on the deadlifts.  Seems better to do them first then squat.  Took me an extra 10 minutes or so on cardio to get back to feeling normal and for the legs to work right.


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## Cardinal (Jul 9, 2005)

*July 9, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 237*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 85:00, 1225 kcals*

*Notes*

Went out for italian last night.  Had a bunch of buttered popcorn and Dr. Pepper.  Woke up a couple lbs lighter.


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## Cardinal (Jul 10, 2005)

*July 10, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 239*

*Workout*

*HS High Rows 140x10 200x10 240x10 260x7 280x4 220x10
HS Low Rows 200x10, 220x10, 240x10
Curls 60x9, 55x8, 50x7*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 65:00, 935 kcals*


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## Purdue Power (Jul 11, 2005)

Just wanted to let you know that I am still following your progress.  I didn't want you to feel like you were all alone on this one.


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## Cardinal (Jul 11, 2005)

Thanks Purdue.  I definitely appreciate the support.  This one 'should' be coming to an end soon enough.  I have definitely extended the cycle longer than planned.  I just haven't run out of anything yet, hehe.


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## Cardinal (Jul 12, 2005)

*July 11, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 237.5*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 60:00, 900 kcals*


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## Cardinal (Jul 12, 2005)

*July 12, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 238*

*Workout*

*HS Incline Press 160x10 200x8 240x6 260x5 220x2x8
HS Shoulder Press 240x7
DB OH Press 65x8
HS Tricep 120x12, 140x10, 160x7
Kickbacks 35x12*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 65:00 955 kcals*

*Notes*

HS machines sure felt really good on my joints.  It is amazing how simply choosing the right movements and taking time to avoid activities that bother my joints really does help.  Being on Test/Tren may certainly negatively impact joint health, but I sure can't tell it now.  Since I stopped doing calf work, I no longer have achilles tendon pain at all.


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## Cardinal (Jul 13, 2005)

*July 13, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 242*

*Workout*

*Conventional Deads 
225x5, 295x5, 345x3, 375x1, 395x1, 405x1 (20 lb PR) 225x12

Squats 135x10, 155x10, 175x8, 195x8 * 

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 65:00 930 kcals*

*Notes*

I know I am pretty devoted to bodybuilding at the moment, but I have wanted a 405 deadlift for quite some time now.  My old max was 385.  375 actually felt pretty heavy and I had my reservations about pushing it further.  But I didn't feel like I was going to break anything so I gave it a shot and I am sure glad I did.  Goal achieved!  

Only problem I had is that I felt my head was going to explode on the last two heavy sets.  Overall I am really pleased with the workout.


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## Purdue Power (Jul 13, 2005)

A comment on your title "When I lost control, I like it"....I am going through the same as of late on my Prop/Tren cycle.  The anabolics coupled with restricted carbs has provided for low tolerance and has been testing my restraint.  I have really been enjoying being pissed at people.  It is a nice departure from my normally mild mannered, pleasant demeaner.


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## Cardinal (Jul 13, 2005)

I definitely took that quote from the Hulk.  I figured it was a pretty ideal title for a cycle like the one we are doing.  I was kind of hoping I would be more of an asshole on this cycle, but it didn't totally pan out.  If I tried to cut out carbs, I would definitely just start breaking shit.  

I am way more edgy on low carbs than I ever have been on anabolics.  I just like the way I feel on Tren.


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## Cardinal (Jul 14, 2005)

*July 14, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 240*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 106:00 1500 kcals*

*Notes*

Making a few minor dietary adjustments.  I have been hungry for fruit lately, so I am going to go with more blackberry/blueberry protein shakes, hood oj, apples,bananas etc + lean meats.  Will try to get calories down around 3000.  I'll see where they fall and track them a little closer for the next week or so.


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## Cardinal (Jul 15, 2005)

*July 15, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 240*

*Workout*

*HS High Row 140x10, 180x10, 220x8
Curls 60x10, 65x5, 55x7, 50x7
Wrist Curls 30x2x9*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 65:00 925 kcals*

*Notes*

Strength seems to still be going up a little.  Hit a PR on curls.  Form was kind of sloppy but definitely I was stronger.


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## Cardinal (Jul 17, 2005)

*July 17, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 237*

*Workout*

*Incline 215x3x5
DB OH Press 65x2x8
Tricep Pushdowns 30x2x10, 40x9
DB Laterals 30x8, 35x10*

*Notes*

Skipped cardio today on account of work.  I have about 1 week left on cycle (I am setting deadline to go off).  I feel like it is a good time to stay at maintenance for awhile.


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## Pirate! (Jul 18, 2005)

Let us know what your final waist measurement is...


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## Cardinal (Jul 18, 2005)

Pirate: Sure will do.  This morning it was a conservative 38.75".  I am hoping when I finally stop my cycle that it will move down a bit closer to 38".  I still feel like I am leaning out but it has been pretty slow of late.


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## Cardinal (Jul 18, 2005)

*July 18, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 241
Waist: 38.75"*

*Workout*

*Squat 135x8, 155x8, 185x8, 215x8, 225x8, 235x5, 245x5*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 30:00, 425 kcals
Bowling 60:00, fun but not really cardio*

*Notes*

First time squatting heavy (for me) in awhile.  245 actually felt pretty good.  If I can hit 250 or 255 next time I will pretty much be as strong as I have ever been on every exercise I train (or damn close).


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## Cardinal (Jul 19, 2005)

*July 19, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 238*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 65:00*


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## Cardinal (Jul 20, 2005)

*July 20, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 239*

*Workout*

*HS High Row 200x8, 240x8, 260x6, 280x3
Curls 60x9, 65x5, 50x7, 50x7
HS Low Row 200x8, 300x5, 280x8*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 50:00*


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## Pirate! (Jul 21, 2005)

I'm still surprised that you haven't lost more weight on this cycle. Don't take this as critisism, Cardinal, but I think this is a good example of how important a proper diet is. I believe with the exercise routine and drugs that you have been using, you could have lost 20 lbs of fat on this cycle. It looks like the cycle is coming to end, and what matters most is that you are satisfied with the results. For me, the journey is more important than arriving at my destination, and it sounds like you had a good time and our happy with your progress. I'm happy for you, Bro. Peace...


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## Cardinal (Jul 21, 2005)

*Pirate* You are absolutely right.  I most definitely could have lost 20 lbs of fat in the time frame I have been on.  The only modification that I would have needed to make would be to lower calories by about 1500 each day.  Very true.  

However, although I do think that it is very reasonable to lose 20 lbs of fat on this cycle, I don't think the bodyweight loss would have needed to be much more substantial than it has been.  What I am taking is really anabolic and I did expect to keep most of my actual bodyweight.  Until the last two weeks, I was losing bodyfat exceptionally fast (for me) while keeping all my weight pretty much.  Keep in mind that when I go off I will likely lose some weight.  I am guessing a good 5 lbs right as the esters clear my system.  

Thanks for the feedback Pirate.  It is always appreciated.


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## Cardinal (Jul 21, 2005)

*July 21, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 240*

*Workout*

*Bench 185x10, 225x5, 245x5, 275x1 (PR)
Incline 205x7, 205x8 (w/help)
Crossovers 20x10, 25x10, 35x10, 20x10
HS Decline 120x9
HS Incline 180x6*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 65:00, 923 kcals*

*Notes*

Had a good workout partner today, so I went for a max on bench.  Got 275 pretty easily.  I figure I might be good for 280-285 if I did things properly re: warmups etc.  Good day overall.  Skipped Tris and will hit them in a few days.


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## Cardinal (Jul 22, 2005)

*July 22, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 240*
*Waist: 38.6"*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 100:00 1450 kcals*


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## Cardinal (Jul 23, 2005)

*July 23, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 240*

*Workout*

*Squats 135x6, 185x6, 225x5, 255x5, 225x10
Leg Extensions 160x8, 200x8, 240x8*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 48:00, 700 kcals*

*Notes*

Alright.  Did my last injection yesterday and I am going to start pct in about 4.5 days or so.  260x5 was my old 5RM on squats.  255x5 was pretty easy, so I feel confident I am at my strongest.  My strength nearly always falls off quite dramatically about 1-2 weeks into pct.  Hopefully this won't be the case now, but I am not expecting anything new.  I ran the Tren 9+ weeks and gave my strength plenty of time to stabilize, so maybe it will be a bit more keepable.


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## Cardinal (Jul 24, 2005)

*July 24, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 235
Waist: 38.25"*

*Workout*

*JM Press 135x8, 155x8, 175x6
Modified Tates 45x6, 55x6, 65x4, 60x5
Pushdowns 40x9, 30x3x10
Curls 60x9, 60x7
Hammer Curls 50x8
C Curls 45x2x8, 50x5
Wrist Curls 3 sets*

*Cardio* 

*Elliptical 65:00 925 kcals*

*Notes*

Dropped about 5 lbs overnight.  I definitely look better in the mirror.  Strength still up, good pumps in the gym and definitely still feeling really good overall.


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## jeb (Jul 24, 2005)

I'm following your Journal as well Cardinal, I will do a cycle of 75mg/eod Tren only with 50mg of proviron, I'm also very prone to MBP as well specially on my test cycles, I take the same as you, spirolactone, nizoral shampoo minox and finasteride works O.K. for me, that's why right now i'm doing this tren cylce by itself to see how I react to it, Mudge seems to love tren/prop cycles though, he doesn't have those hairloss sides from test or any other aas I wish i could have the same body "reaction" to the aas as him and other bros. anyhow it looks like you have done real good on this tren/prop cycle huh? that's good bro I hope everything ends up good for you.


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## Cardinal (Jul 24, 2005)

Jeb,

Thanks for the feedback.  I considered running Tren by itself and did for a couple of weeks in this cycle.  For me, tren by itself might have led to more total weightloss (or maybe its just the water retention from SD and Test Prop that is leading me to believe that).  

I wholeheartedly agree with you about our reaction to Test.  Hair loss can be quite tough to counteract even with all the products out there on the market today.  I wish it were the other way around and I got no sides from Test and all kinds of problems with Tren.  

I will have lost 3" + off of my waistline, which leaves me looking pretty normal and feeling plenty confident about my overall appearance.  I am hoping to get down to about 220 eventually.  Maybe by then I will be ready to give another good lean bulker a go.  But I am going to have to experiment and see how I can get all the hair I have lost back in full force first.  That is now priority one.  I can tackle the gyno problem easily enough I feel for it not to be a big concern, but I do not wish to be bald.  Would negate a lot of my efforts in some respects hehe.


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## Cardinal (Jul 26, 2005)

*July 26, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 235
Waist: 38"  :cheers: *

*Workout*

*Deadlifts 135x8, 225x6, 275x6, 315x7, 295x8
HS Low Rows 200x8, 260x2x8*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 42:00, 600 kcals*

*Notes*

Toning down the cardio a little bit.  I am going to watch the scale and if more weight starts to drop, I will add calories big time.  I am probably at about 4500 kcals/day now.  I am really liking how much leaner I look after dropping 3/4 of an inch off the waist in what appears to be about a week now.  

As luck would have it (and I am not complaining about being with a ridiculously hot girl), I will probably be fairly active this weekend.  So I ordered some stuff from IBE (Vitamin C, Vitamin V, and clomid) and will probably make use of the last two as libido is quite low at the moment compared to what it was while I was on.  May also get maca, tribulus and zma but that would just be overkill hehe.


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## Cardinal (Jul 28, 2005)

*July 28, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 236.5*

*Workout*

*Bench 185x3x10
DB OH Press 70x9, 70x7, 70x7
Tates 40x12
Crossovers 25x8, 35x2x10
HS Tricep 60x10, 70x8, 80x2x8
HS Incline 160x10, 180x8, 200x2x5
Abs 100x3x5, 50x6*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 45:00 685 kcals*

*Notes*

I used a bit lighter weight today, but my strength really hasn't started to drop off much yet.  Have been eating more, which left me with about 1/5 inch more around the waist and a few pounds heavier.  Not complaining.


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## Cardinal (Jul 29, 2005)

*July 29, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 233*

*Workout*

*Squats 205x5, 225x5, 245x5, 225x7
Leg Extensions 4 sets*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 40:00*

*Notes*

Some of the CNS stimulation is already going away.  Lost about 10 lbs on my squat.  Endurance is very high on cardio.  Definitely really happy about the cardiovascular effects of doing the elliptical nearly every day since May whatever.  Physique overall is looking a bit softer after being off of Tren for awhile now.  Libido not where I would like it to be.


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## Cardinal (Aug 1, 2005)

*August 1, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 233*

*Workout*

*CGBP 135x6, 165x6, 195x6, 225x5, 235x4
DB OH Press 70x8, 80x5, 70x9, 65x9
Tates 40x8, 50x8, 50x7
Laterals 30x10, 25x12
Pushdowns 30x4x10
Crossovers 30x10, 35x8, 35x8*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 47:00, 750 kcals*

*Notes*

Sorry for the lack of updates the last few days.  Had to work and didn't lift this weekend, but I did do plenty of cardio.  Felt good to get back in the gym.  Strength is down a bit on pressing work but nothing major.  Most of the cell volumization is gone and my arms are down about .5".  I am going to just maintain what I have for the next few weeks and try not to really gain or lose any weight overall.  Protein intake has been spot on the last week or so.  Calories still over 4000.


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## jeb (Aug 1, 2005)

That's good you leaned out and ready for a bulker, that' s what I want lean out and maintain what i have it don't matter if i loose what i gained in that cycle but stay the same and lower my bf. keep it up bro. thanks for the input. hey how's the hair going? did it stop?? what are u taking right now as far as hair loss?


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## Cold Iron (Aug 1, 2005)

What is your ideal weight and at what % ??


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## Cardinal (Aug 2, 2005)

*Jeb:* Thanks for the comments.  Hair loss definitely hasn't stopped.  Nolvadex always causes me shedding and I won't be off that for a good while now.  Right now I am not taking anything but Nizoral shampoo.  I will be using finasteride for 3-4 months but I am going to start it right at end of pct.  I want to make certain I have no libido issue from it (I know the odds of that are low, but.. )

*Cold Iron:*  Realistically for now, I am looking to get a 36" waistline at about 220 lbs bodyweight.  That will probably put me around 15% or maybe a bit less bodyfat (I am not a good estimator, rather go by waistline).  Longterm I'll probably shoot for about 10-15 lbs more muscle and a gradual reduction in bodyfat.  Steroid use at that point will probably be more maintenance oriented.  Basically I am pretty darn happy with how I look now and will be satisfied at around 220-225 leanish (for me).  I am already realizing I need to focus on other aspects of bodybuilding more than I do now.


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## Cardinal (Aug 2, 2005)

*August 2, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 234*

*Workout*

*HS High Row 160x8, 200x8, 240x9, 220x9
HS Low Row 200x8, 240x8, 260x7
Curls 60x9, 55x8, 50x9, 60x6
Lat Pulldown 145x12
Reverse Curls 75x10*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 50:00, 765 kcals*

*Notes*

Happy to say I have lost only a small amount on the Rows and nothing off the curls strengthwise.  Looking good in that department so far.  Tren may very well be the best strength drug out there if I manage to keep most all of what I have gained.


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## Cardinal (Aug 4, 2005)

*August 4, 2005

Bodyweight: 235

Workout

Squats 135x8, 185x6, 205x6, 225x6, 235x3x5
Deadlifts 225x12, 275x8, 295x8, 275x7
Leg Extensions 2 sets
Abs 3 sets

Cardio

Elliptical 50:00

Notes

Still felt pretty strong on squats and deads.  Upped calories by about 1000 or so.  Don't think I am gaining any fat so probably a good idea.*


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## Cold Iron (Aug 4, 2005)

I don't know how you consistantly put up 50+ minutes of cardio every workout, but I'm impressed.

You going to post any pics?


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## Cardinal (Aug 5, 2005)

Cold Iron: There is usually some pretty nice eye candy in front of the elliptical I am on.  

Pics?  I wish I had taken before pics so I could post before and after losing 3.5" or so.  But I am still close to a 38" waistline and am planning to take 2-3 months to drop the last two inches (natty style).  Then I will post some pics.

For what its worth, people in the gym have commented quite a bit on how much weight it looks like I have lost (reality only lost 12-15 lbs) and how much leaner I look.  I guess it is because most people that gain a lot of weight never really look that much better that fast (or don't lose it for years).


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## Cardinal (Aug 5, 2005)

*August 5, 2005*

*Bodyweight: 232*

*Workout*

*CGBP 135x8, 175x6, 205x5, 225x5, 235x4
Tates 40x8, 55x7, 50x9
Crossovers 35x3x9
Cable Laterals 20x8, 15x2x10
Pushdowns 30x2x12*

*Cardio*

*Elliptical 35:00, 525 kcals*

*Notes*

Good workout in not a lot of time


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## Cardinal (Aug 14, 2005)

*Update August 14, 2005*

Good news and bad news.

Bad news is I am still losing hair.  Therefore I have decided to discontinue the use of nolvadex at this point (short pct I know).  I am losing quite a bit fast now, so if dropping the nolva entirely doesn't solve the problem, I am going to go ahead and start taking finasteride even if it causes additional shedding initially (I know probably should already be taking it).  Normally by now the hair loss pretty much has stopped but not this time.  Could be the time of year as I tend to shed more in summer for awhile and then again in spring.

*Good news*

It looks like the recomp overall went pretty well.  I am looking quite lean and still getting comments.  I lost about 1/2 inch on my arms from my starting measurement of 17.75", some of which was probably muscle and the rest of which was just fat (I had a lot to lose and still do).  Waistline has stayed stable at about 38" throughout pct, just as planned.  

*Starting Weight: 245-250 lbs
End Weight: 228-233
Weight Loss: 17 lbs
Bodyfat loss: 3.5" off waist*

To me those numbers leave a little room for muscle tissue loss, but not a whole bunch considering the weight loss overall.

*Strength gains*

Tren has worked incredibly well for gaining strength and surprisingly for me, I am still retaining most all of what I got off of tren (I bet what I lost is largely from the Superdrol gains as that has happened to me once before on it).  I am still squatting 235x5 for multiple sets, deadlifts are still easy at 315, and CGBP is holding at 235x4.  Those numbers aren't that strong but for me I am really happy to retain them for now, especially through pct.

*PCT*

The first couple of weeks were rough on the libido, probably because of the Tren and partly just performance anxiety.  Nothing ever quit working however, which is good.

Right now my libido is really strong.  In fact I am losing more hair now that my libido is sky high (relatively speaking), so that makes me think it is definitely time to start taking finasteride.  

I definitely look softer in the mirror and less vascular, but overall I like the leaner look.


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## Cold Iron (Aug 14, 2005)

Looking good for the most part. 

Does MPB run in the family?


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## Cardinal (Aug 14, 2005)

To my knowledge MPB doesn't really run in my family much.  I have experienced hair loss before (within the past two years and not on androgens).  Then it seemed that dieting too much caused me to lose hair.  That happened twice actually.


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