# Soy Milk and Estrogen?



## BillHicksFan (Apr 2, 2012)

1. Im working in a Soy milk factory so I have unlimited protein shakes, but will they give me bitch-tits (or have any negative affect) despite the fact I supplement with test?

2. Will drinking Soy milk make me gay?


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## bdeljoose (Apr 2, 2012)

I don't think soy milk will make you gay. It might make you carry a man purse, grow a beard, put your hair in a pony tail and wear sandals with socks. JK. I have never tried soy milk.


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## BillHicksFan (Apr 2, 2012)

I thought only fags drink soy milk, but it tastes pretty good and sometimes I forget my lunch. Im running test without an AI and I'm a little concerned about the repercussions.


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## bdeljoose (Apr 2, 2012)

I would probably concerned also. They pay you pretty good there?


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## BillHicksFan (Apr 2, 2012)

Enough to be able to afford AIs.


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## SFW (Apr 2, 2012)

I liked soy milk. But im running an ai. If u were, you'd have no worries. Btw, how much T are you abusing without an AI?


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## BillHicksFan (Apr 2, 2012)

SFW said:


> I liked soy milk. But im running an ai. If u were, you'd have no worries. Btw, how much T are you abusing without an AI?



Jumped on a test only cycle 3 weeks ago. 
750mg test sust/week, give or take. As its UGL, probably take. I have some outdated sten aromasin here but I plan to order more soon. Its 2 years old. Is it worth risking?

In your opinion, is soy really that bad or is it not worth worrying about?


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## OfficerFarva (Apr 2, 2012)

It has a lot of phytoestrogens in it so for that reason alone I'd avoid it.  I also hate the taste lol.  Your aromasin is probably still ok but only blood work will let you know.


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## exphys88 (Apr 2, 2012)

The idea that soy products will make you grow boobs is ridiculous.  phytoestrogens are actually good for you, as well as all the other phytonutrients in soy milk.  Don't buy into the propaganda.  Japanese men have been eating soy products for generations and they don't have boobs.  In fact, they're very healthy when they stick to their cultures original diet.

The issue with soy products, is that the people that eat them are usually vegetarian and eat tons of it.  A diet that is overly saturated with one food product is not healthy regardless of what the food is.  Soy products, as part of a well balanced diet are healthy.


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## MuscleGauge1 (Apr 2, 2012)

bdeljoose said:


> I don't think soy milk will make you gay. It might make you carry a man purse, grow a beard, put your hair in a pony tail and wear sandals with socks. JK. I have never tried soy milk.



LOL This^


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## BillHicksFan (Apr 4, 2012)

exphys88 said:


> The idea that soy products will make you grow boobs is ridiculous.  phytoestrogens are actually good for you, as well as all the other phytonutrients in soy milk.  Don't buy into the propaganda.  Japanese men have been eating soy products for generations and they don't have boobs.  In fact, they're very healthy when they stick to their cultures original diet.
> 
> The issue with soy products, is that the people that eat them are usually vegetarian and eat tons of it.  A diet that is overly saturated with one food product is not healthy regardless of what the food is.  Soy products, as part of a well balanced diet are healthy.



Japanese men dont have boobs but they do have extremely small penises. Coincidence?  

Thanks for your response, exphys. I was just kidding about the man-boobs but more concerned about estrogen related cancer and other sides that I wouldn't be aware of without blood work. I'll throw in some aromasin to be safe as I should be doing that anyway.

Do you think that consuming 5 litres a week would be ok for a gear user with a balanced diet?


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## colochine (Apr 4, 2012)

I used to work for A soy milk plant a few years back, some of it is very good lol. I was drinking a ton of
It and I think the good flavors are pretty fattening. 

I also looked up isoflavones relationship to estrogenic side effects. I could not find any conclusive data. I did read however consumption or large quantities of soy products by pregnant women could influence the sex of the unborn child.

I got a better job and gave up on the research however lol.


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## BillHicksFan (Apr 4, 2012)

colochine said:


> I used to work for A soy milk plant a few years back, some of it is very good lol. I was drinking a ton of
> It and I think the good flavors are pretty fattening.



I just drink the protein and vitamin enriched soy without added sugar but yeah, it tastes surprisingly good after you get used to it.



colochine said:


> I also looked up isoflavones relationship to estrogenic side effects. I could not find any conclusive data. I did read however consumption or large quantities of soy products by pregnant women could influence the sex of the unborn child.



That's impossible. It's the male sperm which determines the gender of the unborn child. They could turn out to be extremely gay but I cant find any conclusive data to back that up. 



colochine said:


> I got a better job and gave up on the research however lol.



Gee thanks. My self esteem has just sky-rocketed, although I didn't mention _â€‹what role I recently attained._


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## Powermaster (Apr 4, 2012)

exphys88 said:


> The idea that soy products will make you grow boobs is ridiculous.  phytoestrogens are actually good for you, as well as all the other phytonutrients in soy milk.  Don't buy into the propaganda.  Japanese men have been eating soy products for generations and they don't have boobs.  In fact, they're very healthy when they stick to their cultures original diet.
> 
> The issue with soy products, is that the people that eat them are usually vegetarian and eat tons of it.  A diet that is overly saturated with one food product is not healthy regardless of what the food is.  Soy products, as part of a well balanced diet are healthy.



Japanese men don't eat nearly as much soy as we think they do and they soy they do eat isn't the GMO shit we use here in the US.

OP Read the label. I think you'll find you are taking in way more sugar (added for flavor) than actual soy protein. In other words, to get enough protein from the soy milk you'll have to drink allot of it and then you'll also be taking in a huge amount a sugar which is probably the most detrimental of any of the other sides you may get from drinking soy milk.


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## BillHicksFan (Apr 4, 2012)

Powermaster said:


> Japanese men don't eat nearly as much soy as we think they do and they soy they do eat isn't the GMO shit we use here in the US.
> 
> OP Read the label. I think you'll find you are taking in way more sugar (added for flavor) than actual soy protein. In other words, to get enough protein from the soy milk you'll have to drink allot of it and then you'll also be taking in a huge amount a sugar which is probably the most detrimental of any of the other sides you may get from drinking soy milk.



Youre right, and I'm well aware of this. It's 8% protein and 15% carbs. Far from ideal but I've been using the "anything is better than nothing" rule and as I haven't trained in almost a year due to injury the doms is insane! 
I'll get more organised shortly but this new shift work schedule has thrown out my routine. Usually I'm anal about my meals and never miss a beat. 

There's no GMO products on our line and there's organic to chose from as well. It's made from local beans to milk on site and none of that pre-made powder shit that other companies produce.

Im also taking t3 so that will help in the meantime until I get my new routine down.


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## theCaptn' (Apr 4, 2012)

BillHicksFan said:


> 1. Im working in a Soy milk factory so I have unlimited protein shakes, but will they give me bitch-tits (or have any negative affect) despite the fact I supplement with test?
> 
> 2. Will drinking Soy milk make me gay?



Soy is a pre-cursor for trannydom


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## BillHicksFan (Apr 4, 2012)

theCaptn' said:


> Soy is a pre-cursor for trannydom




In that case I'll start dropping off a few litres to my neighbour on a daily basis. Who knows, in 12 months time we could possibly spark up a friendship.


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## exphys88 (Apr 4, 2012)

Powermaster said:


> Japanese men don't eat nearly as much soy as we think they do and they soy they do eat isn't the GMO shit we use here in the US.
> 
> OP Read the label. I think you'll find you are taking in way more sugar (added for flavor) than actual soy protein. In other words, to get enough protein from the soy milk you'll have to drink allot of it and then you'll also be taking in a huge amount a sugar which is probably the most detrimental of any of the other sides you may get from drinking soy milk.



I buy the plain kind w no added sugar, but I only drink it probably a couple times a month.  You're right, most of it has a ton of sugar, but if you don't eat a lot of sweets, it's probably not a big deal.


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## exphys88 (Apr 4, 2012)

Powermaster said:


> Japanese men don't eat nearly as much soy as we think they do and they soy they do eat isn't the GMO shit we use here in the US.
> 
> OP Read the label. I think you'll find you are taking in way more sugar (added for flavor) than actual soy protein. In other words, to get enough protein from the soy milk you'll have to drink allot of it and then you'll also be taking in a huge amount a sugar which is probably the most detrimental of any of the other sides you may get from drinking soy milk.



since you negged me for my post, I'm going to call  you out on your post and ask you to back up your claims.  

*First*, provide some evidence that gmo foods are bad for us.  You must've read some research about this, or you wouldn't be making these claims, right?

*Second*, what does "don't eat nearly as much soy as we think" amount to?  Do you have numbers on this?

*third*, explain this statement:  "sugar which is probably the most detrimental of any of the other sides you may get from drinking soy milk."  I didn't realize sugar caused sides, and what are the other "sides" that soy milk produces?  btw, there is soy milk that doesn't have added sugar.  Please back up with evidence.

soy beans are a legume and can be incredibly healthy if eaten as part of a well rounded diet, just like every other legume.  It's not intelligent to demonize particular foods as good or bad, and it shows your lack of education on the subject.  There is no food that is "bad" for us, there are just some foods that we should eat more of, and others that we should eat less of.

This does not mean I'm advocating eating tons of soy products, just like I wouldn't advise someone to eat tons of red or processed meats.  It's what we do most of the time that determines our health.


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## Powermaster (Apr 4, 2012)

exphys88 said:


> since you negged me for my post, I'm going to call  you out on your post and ask you to back up your claims.
> 
> *First*, provide some evidence that gmo foods are bad for us.  You must've read some research about this, or you wouldn't be making these claims, right?
> 
> ...



Drink that shit if you like, me no way am I drinking soy milk or any of that GMO crap. Feed that factory shit to the starving people in impoverished counties, me, I'm sticking to good old fashioned small farm grown food.

Effin Bro science....


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## exphys88 (Apr 4, 2012)

I actually eat mostly organic and non gmo foods.  But if you want to be objective, you have to accept that there is zero evidence that doing so makes you healthier.
Personally, i assume that soon we may start to see a difference, but until then, you can't make claims without backing it up w peer reviewed science.


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## Powermaster (Apr 5, 2012)

Soy Alert! Brochure - Weston A Price Foundation
Here's one of many.
Bottom line: soy milk is a processed food. Last time I checked soy beans don't have tits.


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## brazey (Apr 5, 2012)

Good to see a fellow WAPF member on the board!


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## exphys88 (Apr 5, 2012)

Powermaster said:


> Soy Alert! Brochure - Weston A Price Foundation
> Here's one of many.
> Bottom line: soy milk is a processed food. Last time I checked soy beans don't have tits.



now that's some scientific stuff right there! lol

you're right, soy milk is a processed food and should be consumed in small portions just like every other processed food.  It's not the devil though, so stop with the propaganda.


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## bjg (Apr 5, 2012)

soy milk is very good source of protein ..its estrogenic effects are not a bad thing at all and it will not affect your muscles at all  ...it was jut a propaganda advertising against soy;;;i drink it all the time and i don;t have tits so far


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## bjg (Apr 5, 2012)

soy milk is very good source of protein ..its estrogenic effects are not a bad thing at all and it will not affect your muscles at all  ...it was jut a propaganda advertising against soy;;;i drink it all the time and i don;t have tits so far


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## TJTJ (Apr 5, 2012)

colochine said:


> ...I did read however consumption or large  quantities of soy products by pregnant women could influence the sex of  the unborn child...



No way this is true. That would mean Soy has the ability to mutate and alter already predetermined genetic sequences. 

OP, A good alternative to Soy would be Almond Milk. The only two I drink is  Orignial, which has a bit of sugar. Or Unsweetened which doesn't taste  like much but I dont care about flavor. IMO Ditch the Soy and go with the Almond Milk.


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## exphys88 (Apr 5, 2012)

TJTJ said:


> No way this is true. That would mean Soy has the ability to mutate and alter already predetermined genetic sequences.
> 
> OP, A good alternative to Soy would be Almond Milk. The only two I drink is  Orignial, which has a bit of sugar. Or Unsweetened which doesn't taste  like much but I dont care about flavor. IMO Ditch the Soy and go with the Almond Milk.



I heard almond milk will make your ears grow and make you blind.

Almonds don't have nipples, therefore we shouldn't drink almond MILK.


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## colochine (Apr 5, 2012)

TJTJ said:


> No way this is true. That would mean Soy has the ability to mutate and alter already predetermined genetic sequences.
> 
> OP, A good alternative to Soy would be Almond Milk. The only two I drink is  Orignial, which has a bit of sugar. Or Unsweetened which doesn't taste  like much but I dont care about flavor. IMO Ditch the Soy and go with the Almond Milk.




Environmental effects on fetal sex determination.


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## MuscleGauge1 (Apr 5, 2012)

BillHicksFan said:


> In that case I'll start dropping off a few litres to my neighbour on a daily basis. Who knows, in 12 months time we could possibly spark up a friendship.



12months. Don't wait so long. Ring their doorbell in 3months. Should be enough time for the boobs to grow.


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## TJTJ (Apr 5, 2012)

exphys88 said:


> ...Almonds don't have nipples, therefore we shouldn't drink almond MILK...



Hrr hrr


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## Powermaster (Apr 6, 2012)

bjg said:


> soy milk is very good source of protein ..its estrogenic effects are not a bad thing at all and it will not affect your muscles at all  ...it was jut a propaganda advertising against soy;;;i drink it all the time and i don;t have tits so far



Brilliant rebuttal: Millions of smokers use this same analogy "well I've been smoking for 20 years and don't have cancer...it's all propaganda"

Like I said before, go ahead and drink the shit. Me no freakin way. Whey + water = done.


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## BFHammer (Apr 6, 2012)

I'll pass on the soy.  The asian eat small amounts of fermented soy.  Not the gmo pesticide laden crap on the shelves here.

The Truth About Soy Foods

Dr. Kaayla Daniel, author of _The Whole Soy Story_,  points out thousands of studies linking soy to malnutrition, digestive  distress, immune-system breakdown, thyroid dysfunction, cognitive  decline, reproductive disorders and infertility—even cancer and heart  disease.
 Here is just a sampling of the health effects that have been linked to soy consumption:


Breast cancer
Brain damage
Infant abnormalities
Thyroid disorders
Kidney stones
Immune system impairment
Severe, potentially fatal food allergies
Impaired fertility
Danger during pregnancy and nursing



What Are the Dangers of Soy? | eHow.com

What’s On My Food :: Pesticides on Soybean Grain

 [h=2]Soybean Grain[/h]    [SIZE=+2]10[/SIZE] Pesticide Residues Found by the USDA Pesticide Data Program[SUP]1,2,3[/SUP]  
    [h=3]Human Health Effects:[/h]  
3—Known or Probable Carcinogens[SUP]4[/SUP]5—Suspected Hormone Disruptors2—Neurotoxins2—Developmental or Reproductive Toxins
  [h=3]Environmental Effects:[/h]  
3—Honeybee Toxins[SUP]5[/SUP]
 
   [h=3]Pesticide Residues Found in Soybean Grain:[/h]  
What Pesticide?How Often is it Found?[SUP]6[/SUP]Conventional vs. OrganicToxicity[SUP]7[/SUP]Other Foods with this Pesticide  Chlorpyrifos  14.5%  Conventional
 vs. Organic











 Other Foods   Malathion  5.2%  Conventional
 vs. Organic













 Other Foods   Pyraclostrobin  2.0%  Conventional
 vs. Organic




 Other Foods   Dimethenamid  1.3%  Conventional
 vs. Organic




 Other Foods   Permethrin Total  0.7%  Conventional
 vs. Organic










 Other Foods   Alachlor  0.3%  Conventional
 vs. Organic













 Other Foods   Trifluralin  0.3%  Conventional
 vs. Organic










 Other Foods   Thiabendazole  0.2%  Conventional
 vs. Organic







 Other Foods   Sulfentrazone  0.2%  Conventional
 vs. Organic




 Other Foods   Methoxyfenozide  0.1%  Conventional
 vs. Organic




 Other Foods


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## BFHammer (Apr 6, 2012)

Institute for Responsible Technology - GMO Dangers

findings include: 

*Thousands* of sheep, buffalo, and goats in India *died* after grazing on Bt cotton plants
 Mice eating GM corn for the long term had *fewer, and smaller, babies*
More than half the babies of mother rats fed GM soy *died within three weeks*, and were smaller
*Testicle* cells of mice and rats on a GM soy *change *significantly
By the third generation, most GM soy-fed hamsters *lost the ability to have babies*
Rodents fed GM corn and soy showed immune system responses and signs of toxicity
Cooked GM soy contains as much as *7-times* the amount of a *known soy allergen*
*Soy allergies skyrocketed by 50%* in the UK, soon after GM soy was introduced
The stomach lining of rats fed GM potatoes showed *excessive cell growth*, a condition that may lead to cancer.
Studies showed organ lesions, altered liver and pancreas cells, changed enzyme levels, etc.


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## exphys88 (Apr 6, 2012)

Drink organic soy milk.  All of these propaganda brochures fail to provide references.  And, all of the issues are from GMO foods, which would also require you to not eat tons of fruits and veges if you were to avoid them completely.
The op was asking about drinking soy milk.  Drinking a little soy milk as part of a well rounded diet is healthy, I stand by this claim and am yet to see any reason to believe different.

I can reproduce just as much propaganda that will tell you to avoid cows milk and whey protein too, but it doesn't make it true.  Same thing w corn or potatoes or even meat and some veges.
The fact is that no food that's eaten in moderation is going to kill you, and yes, if you eat tons of one food, it's not healthy, whether it's soy milk, milk, cheese, or even spinach.  Lots of spinach has been linked w kidney stones, should we demonize it too?  Should we hand out pamphlets all about the dangers of spinach?


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## exphys88 (Apr 6, 2012)

Here are foods that can cause kidney stones.  You should never eat these, they're bad, mmkay!

High-oxalate foods-higher to lower
rhubarb
spinach
beets
swiss chard
wheat germ
soybean crackers
peanuts
okra
chocolate
black Indian tea
sweet potatoes

Foods that have medium amounts of oxalate may be eaten in limited amounts.
Medium-oxalate foods-higher to lower
grits
grapes
celery
green pepper
red raspberries
fruit cake
strawberries
marmalade
liver
Source: The Oxalosis and Hyperoxaluria Foundation .


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## Powermaster (Apr 6, 2012)

exphys88 said:


> Drink organic soy milk.



If you must, but read the label. The most common brand out there that I am aware of is "silk" has way more processed sugar than soy and like I mentioned in my first post happens to be by allot.
Sure you could get sugar free but I'll bet it taste like ass <gags>.


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## exphys88 (Apr 6, 2012)

Yes silk is loaded w sugar.


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## sassy69 (Apr 10, 2012)

exphys88 said:


> The issue with soy products, is that the people that eat them are usually vegetarian and eat tons of it.  A diet that is overly saturated with one food product is not healthy regardless of what the food is.  Soy products, as part of a well balanced diet are healthy.



^^ This. I work w/ an Indian guy who generally keeps a vegan diet to please his wife. He was consuming hellabunch of soy stuff and I recommended he reduce that particular protein source a bit and he's been able to drop some of the fluff he had.


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## sophiamitchell37 (Apr 14, 2012)

BillHicksFan said:


> 1. Im working in a Soy milk factory so I have unlimited protein shakes, but will they give me bitch-tits (or have any negative affect) despite the fact I supplement with test?
> 
> 2. Will drinking Soy milk make me gay?



What kind of question is that?! haha! Of course not.. Well, If you want to be, i won't forbid you.  
Anyways, yes. It's a high protein drink but as it is. The vitamins will be consumed by the whole body not only by the.. 
I drink 250ml/every other day(a bottle), sometimes twice a week only as part of my diet solution plan. And look, (well, if you can see me) I don't have big.. (you know) but i'm fit.


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## 200+ (Apr 15, 2012)

Man, this thread went nowhere.
I switched from only soy milk (I drank for years) to cows milk specifically for a "better" source of protein, but I don't know what made me think that way. And what about cholesterol?  Soy milk has the same amount of sugar too.


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## MuscleGauge1 (Apr 16, 2012)

Big fan of the organic soy milk also


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## Arra (Apr 16, 2012)

200+ said:


> And what about cholesterol?


Dietary cholesterol has little effect on the amount of blood cholesterol you have. Actually, in most cases dietary cholesterol increases the size of your LDL particles (thus possibly saving them from oxidation).

As for saturated fat in dairy, again, don't worry about it, as it also increases size of LDL particles. In fact there are conflicting studies showing that saturated fat has a lowering effect of blood cholesterol, such as Framingham 1992 where they concluded "the people who ate the most saturated fat weighed the least and had the lowest cholesterol levels"


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## exphys88 (Apr 16, 2012)

Dietary cholesterol isn't the culprit in raising blood cholesterol levels, saturated fat is.
Arra, to say not to worry about saturated fat is to ignore decades of research linking saturated fat to elevated cholesterol levels, and heart disease.  

Vegans who eat very little saturated fat have extremely low rates of hypertension, obesity, hypercholesterolemia, diabetes and heart disease.  
In fact, the only documented cases of reversing coronary disease has been done by vegans on a very low fat diet.  no other diet in the world has done this. Look up the lion heart study w dr Ornish.

You seem to know quite a bit, so I'd like to see why you think saturated fat has no bearing on cholesterol levels.


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## Arra (Apr 16, 2012)

exphys88 said:


> Dietary cholesterol isn't the culprit in raising blood cholesterol levels, saturated fat is.
> Arra, to say not to worry about saturated fat is to ignore decades of research linking saturated fat to elevated cholesterol levels, and heart disease.
> 
> Vegans who eat very little saturated fat have extremely low rates of hypertension, obesity, hypercholesterolemia, diabetes and heart disease.
> ...


I never said saturated fat doesn't raise blood cholesterol levels for anyone, simply that there is conflicting evidence, including studies where people ate 20-50% sauturated fat:

Effect of 6-month adherence to a very low carbohydr... [Am J Med. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI
Nutrition & Metabolism | Full text | Comparison of isocaloric very low carbohydrate/high saturated fat and high carbohydrate/low saturated fat diets on body composition and cardiovascular risk
Diet and weight loss
A randomized trial of a low-carbohydrate diet f... [N Engl J Med. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

To name a few.

Can you link me to articles showing that saturated fat, without a doubt, caused heart disease?

Same can be said about high fat/low carb populations.

The Lyon Heart Study had one group on a prudent diet, one on a Mediterranean diet. The intervention group didn't just up omega-3 intake, but decreased omega-6 intake to below 4% of diet. The ratio was 20 : 1 LA-to-ALA in the control group, and 4.4-to-1 in the intervention group. I'm not totally familiar with the rest of the study, but it seems biased to think that a prudent diet should be a SAD diet o63 ratio. However, if you think it's because of LDL reductions, you're grasping at straws.


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## exphys88 (Apr 16, 2012)

[h=1]Am J Clin Nutr. 2010 Mar;91(3):502-9. Epub  2010 Jan 20.
Saturated fat, carbohydrate, and cardiovascular disease.[/h]Siri-Tarino PW, Sun Q, Hu FB, Krauss RM.
[h=3]Source[/h]Department of Atherosclerosis Research Children's Hospital Oakland Research Institute Oakland, CA, USA.

[h=3]Abstract[/h]A  focus of dietary recommendations for cardiovascular disease (CVD)  prevention and treatment has been a reduction in saturated fat intake,  primarily as a means of lowering LDL-cholesterol concentrations.  However, the evidence that supports a reduction in saturated fat intake  must be evaluated in the context of replacement by other macronutrients.  *Clinical trials that replaced saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat  have generally shown a reduction in CVD events, although several studies  showed no effects*. An independent association of saturated fat intake  with CVD risk has not been consistently shown in prospective  epidemiologic studies, although some have provided evidence of an  increased risk in young individuals and in women. Replacement of  saturated fat by polyunsaturated or monounsaturated fat lowers both LDL  and HDL cholesterol. However, replacement with a higher carbohydrate  intake, particularly refined carbohydrate, can exacerbate the  atherogenic dyslipidemia associated with insulin resistance and obesity  that includes increased triglycerides, small LDL particles, and reduced  HDL cholesterol. *In summary, although substitution of dietary  polyunsaturated fat for saturated fat has been shown to lower CVD risk,  there are few epidemiologic or clinical trial data to support a benefit  of replacing saturated fat with carbohydrate*. Furthermore, particularly  given the differential effects of dietary saturated fats and  carbohydrates on concentrations of larger and smaller LDL particles,  respectively, dietary efforts to improve the increasing burden of CVD  risk associated with atherogenic dyslipidemia should primarily emphasize  the limitation of refined carbohydrate intakes and a reduction in  excess adiposity.

I do think that the paradigm is changing, but I don't think we can say "don't worry about saturated fat" just yet.  It seems that the research that is looking at what saturated fat is being replaced with is in it's infancy.


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## exphys88 (Apr 16, 2012)

> Can you link me to articles showing that saturated fat, without a doubt, caused heart disease?



This is a silly question.  Can you link me to articles showing that smoking, without a doubt, caused lung cancer?  Of course not, and I'm surprised that you would ask for absolute proof for something.  



> The Lyon Heart Study had one group on a prudent diet, one on a Mediterranean diet. The intervention group didn't just up omega-3 intake, but decreased omega-6 intake to below 4% of diet. The ratio was 20 : 1 LA-to-ALA in the control group, and 4.4-to-1 in the intervention group. I'm not totally familiar with the rest of the study, but it seems biased to think that a prudent diet should be a SAD diet o63 ratio. However, if you think it's because of LDL reductions, you're grasping at straws.



The lyon study is not addressing whether this should be a SAD diet, it's merely measuring the effect of a low fat, whole food, plant based diet on heart disease.  This diet is virtually saturated fat free and it's the best way to prevent cardiovascular disease, and will actually reverse it.  This is profound in cardiology, no other dietary program  has actually reversed atherosclerosis.  So, it raises the question, "why does reducing saturated fat have such a positive impact on cvd risk if saturated fat does not matter?  Some even say saturated fat is a healthy way to avoid cvd.

My point is that this is very recent research, and to make huge claims about not needing to worry about saturated fat is not being very objective at all.  These things take decades to be able to make such strong statements.


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## Arra (Apr 16, 2012)

[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]http://www.bmj.com/highwire/filestream/240816/field_highwire_article_pdf/0/1531.full.pdf

The saturated fat group fared the best.

The case for LDL "clogging arteries" is smacked in the face by studies such as the UCLA study of 2009 showed that 75% of patients who had heart disease in 541 hospitals had LDL in the safe range, 50% in the optimal, and 17% had it in the new <75mg/dl range.

I think it's safe to say that saturated fat isn't what we have to worry about, but rather polyunsaturates. The weight of the evidence supports the oxidation of LDL being an issue. There are also studies showing that when statins don't have their LDL-lowering capabilities they produce anti-atherogenic effects.

Have you found a theory for how LDL oxidizes minus through polyunsaturates being oxidized?


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## Arra (Apr 16, 2012)

exphys88 said:


> This is a silly question.  Can you link me to articles showing that smoking, without a doubt, caused lung cancer?  Of course not, and I'm surprised that you would ask for absolute proof for something.
> 
> 
> The lyon study is not addressing whether this should be a SAD diet, it's merely measuring the effect of a low fat, whole food, plant based diet on heart disease.  This diet is virtually saturated fat free and it's the best way to prevent cardiovascular disease, and will actually reverse it.  This is profound in cardiology, no other dietary program  has actually reversed atherosclerosis.  So, it raises the question, "why does reducing saturated fat have such a positive impact on cvd risk if saturated fat does not matter?  Some even say saturated fat is a healthy way to avoid cvd.
> ...


You said "Dietary cholesterol isn't the culprit in raising blood cholesterol levels, saturated fat is." as absolute, so I asked for absolute proof.

They also lower polyunsaturates, by allowing less than 10% total fat. So they lower all fat, so I could hypothesize that monounsaturate-lowering caused the CVD to go down, couldn't I? But I wouldn't because I'm going with the weight of the evidence for oxidation versus "LDL is clogging your arteries."


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## exphys88 (Apr 18, 2012)

Here is a list of other foods that contain phytoestrogens and should be completely eliminated from the diet; eating them will not only make you gay, but will cause you to develop a nice set of breasts:

Flax, sesame seeds, wheatberries, oats, barley, dried beans, lentils, yams, apples, carrots, coffee, bourbon and beer.


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