# is Equipoise better than deca?



## pengers84 (Oct 15, 2004)

hey everyone, 
ive been speaking to a few people and they have been telling me that equipoise is better than deca. less suppresive or something. do people agree?
i was just wondering would 400mg a week for 12 weeks be good for a first timer? i know the gains are arent as fast but im patient and they are usually better quality right? because of less is water? is any pct required?.

i know most people say test for first cycle, but my dads a sports trainer and hed notice the water retention, acne etc thats why im looking for something milder and eq looks good. im finding it hard to get much info on it, anyone no any good sites?
any ideas opinions etc appreciated?


----------



## Just a guy (Oct 15, 2004)

depends... Deca shuts u down horribly(as in Test production aka BALLS) Equipoise is a mild drug that Takes a while to see gains but it does make u eat like a frickin horse.  It just depends on you.  Me and equipoise dont get along to good so im switching to deca.  U just gotta try it.

is pct required???  Errr yeh if you dont want your voice to sound like a girl when u get done.   

YOU NEED TEST... Mikhal would disagree.. as would a small percentage.. But most people get Limp Dick using Deca/Equipoise without Test.


----------



## Boomshaklaka (Oct 15, 2004)

Equ Profile
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catequi.htm

Deca Profile
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catdeca.htm

Check each one profile and decide, I tried deca and i dont like it myself


----------



## Mudge (Oct 15, 2004)

Just a guy said:
			
		

> is pct required???  Errr yeh if you dont want your voice to sound like a girl when u get done.



Vocal chords aren't going to shorten.

EQ by itself, haven't heard anyone that loved that kind of cycle honestly. 400mg is a pretty wimpy dose for using it by itself but you may enjoy it, obviously dont expect miracles.


----------



## Just a guy (Oct 16, 2004)

wow... i have seen college football players get of a cycle and there voice sounds like a girl.....  COuld be something else.. but i aint liein


----------



## Just a guy (Oct 16, 2004)

i meen really think about it.... Your Test gets cut off.... Your voice is GOING to change... i have noticed it with people that dont recover really good.  Its like gettin kicked in the balls REALLY hard.


----------



## Duncans Donuts (Oct 16, 2004)

Never seen someone get off a cycle and have their voice raise an octave


----------



## Mudge (Oct 16, 2004)

Just a guy said:
			
		

> i meen really think about it....



How about, thinking in terms of scientific facts. A temporary voice change can exist, however a permanent voice change can only happen in a lengthening of the vocal chords. When a woman has a voice change, there is only a very short window of opportunity to get off the drugs and undo the damage, which can still take several weeks to occur.

Maybe your friends are strange in the head.


----------



## Just a guy (Oct 16, 2004)

yeh temporary voice change.... Didnt meen they always sounded like a girl


----------



## gamorrah (Oct 18, 2004)

*boldenone*

I like boldenone/EQ better. It does take a while to see gains, but when it kicks in its great. The gains are very keepable and solid and estrogen sides are low.  For people who want safe slow gains, maybe a couple of cycles a year, its great! My cycle was like this

 800mg/ first 2 weeks
 400mg/ last 8  weeks
 proviron 50mg/ED last 6 weeks.

 Im looking forward to using winny with it, any suggestions?


----------



## deeno (Oct 18, 2004)

gamorrah

wut kind of gains can a newbie expect to gain with an eq/proviron cycle for ten weeks?


----------



## LAM (Oct 18, 2004)

there's no reason to use proviron with EQ...you might see 8-10 lbs with EQ only


----------



## gamorrah (Oct 18, 2004)

IMO, first of all, most people will tell you running boldenone alone is a waist of time. I personally would rather have the slow keepable gains and joints that feel good. 

 The proviron is non-anabolic, it just helps with some of the estrogen sides and keeps you hard. Im sure someone here can explain this to you.

  My personal experience as is follows

  age 36
  original weight 224
  original bf%     24%
  thats 53 lbs fat and  171 lean body mass

  my BMR is 3600 cals,

 During my cycle I actually was in a caloric deficit of around 3000-3500 per day with a macro ratio of 50-30-20, I know this is kind of a waist while juicing, but losing fat was important to me!

  afterwords my stats are

  220 lbs
  bf% 14 (30 pounds of fat) with a lean body mass of 190 lbs, which is 19lbs of muscle increase!

  However, you need to consider the following.

  1. Im an ex competitive powerlifter and I was not building platues, but regaining after a hiatus. It was easy to get alot back

  2. It took some practice using the calipers (accumeasure) Im not sure my original measurements were accurate.

 so for your question, I would say as a newbie you will see 10-15 lbm gain, even more if you make sure your in a caloric surplus, if your lean (ectomorph) eat your ass off and you will see decent gains. Also, alot of BB's want that fast build, EQ take about 3-4 weeks before you can really tell, and that in itself makes it hard for some people. After you reach that 3-4 week mark you will see some pretty nice results, without the bloat. I have kept 80% of my gains! you still need to run PCT though 2.5-3 weeks after your last shot, I used tamoxifen 40mg/ed for 2 weeks then 20mg for the last 2 weeks. Although someone here may have a better idea.

 Also, the boldenone works like EPO and does some great things for your endurance, If you have a weight problem, eat your BMR, and cardio your ass off for a nice composition change.


----------



## LAM (Oct 18, 2004)

gamorrah said:
			
		

> The proviron is non-anabolic, it just helps with some of the estrogen sides and keeps you hard. Im sure someone here can explain this to you.



using proviron to combat estrogen sides from EQ...lol

you need to use B-6 or bromocriptine to combat progesterone and prolactin induced gyno from EQ...


----------



## deeno (Oct 18, 2004)

Thanks for the input gammorah, much appreciated..


----------



## pengers84 (Oct 18, 2004)

gamorrah,
why did you use 800mg for 1st 2 weeks and 400mg last 8 weeks?


----------



## pengers84 (Oct 18, 2004)

gamorrah, would you reccomend the 800mg 1st 2 weeks 400mg last 8 weeks for a 1st cycle?


----------



## LAM (Oct 18, 2004)

frontloading is pointless for long esters...


----------



## gamorrah (Oct 18, 2004)

I basically went with Big Cat's boldenone profile

 Concerning frontloading

 Speaking of cumulative effect, the best results with boldenone are seen when a user front-loads. Usually that means he will use a high doses of 600-800 mg/week for 2 weeks and then lower that dose to the normal 300-400 mg/week for the remaining 8-10 weeks.

 concerning estrogen
*
 P*roviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. *So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids*, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.


 also:   *deca produces prolactin issues*, not EQ. EQ is aromatizes like test, just about 50% as much!

 come on guys!


----------



## gamorrah (Oct 18, 2004)

LAM said:
			
		

> using proviron to combat estrogen sides from EQ...lol
> 
> you need to use B-6 or bromocriptine to combat progesterone and prolactin induced gyno from EQ...


 what, thats contrary to everything I have read, DECA produces prolactin issues, not EQ


----------



## LAM (Oct 18, 2004)

EQ does not aromatize into progesterins (actually no AAS does directly) but into estrogens, but it can agitate progesteronic activity. progestoerone induced gyno is caused by elevated levels and activity of both estrogens and progesterone.  so the safest way to use EQ is to take both an anti-aromatize like arimidex or femera and B-6 or bromo to lower prolactin...


----------



## deeno (Oct 18, 2004)

Lam

So with a ten week cycle of EQ, would 0.25mg/day week 1-10 of Armidex be sufficient?  Also, I have liquid nolvadex on hand, are there any absorption issues with this over the cap form? What dosage B6 am I looking at?  Thanks for the input.


----------



## LAM (Oct 18, 2004)

deeno said:
			
		

> Lam
> 
> So with a ten week cycle of EQ, would 0.25mg/day week 1-10 of Armidex be sufficient?  Also, I have liquid nolvadex on hand, are there any absorption issues with this over the cap form? What dosage B6 am I looking at?  Thanks for the input.



the problem with finding good info about boldenone undecylenate (EQ) is that it is a veternary drung with not much if any actually human study behind it.  you have to piece a lot of info together to find out a lot about the potential side effects and how to avoid them..

.25 mg/ED of Arimidex or 2.5 mg of femera is what you want.  regarding the liquid nolvadex.  I know there is a little converision that you have to do to equal the same amount as the tabs.  

here is the info that you need regarding the dosage of the liquid nolvadex..

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15307&highlight=tamoxifen


----------



## pop (Oct 19, 2004)

can  u  just take  a  b-6  vitamin  to combat it


----------



## Mudge (Oct 19, 2004)

B6 is for progesterone-like sides, not aromitization from things like test/EQ.


----------



## ZECH (Oct 19, 2004)

Be careful with the Arimidex and femera. Bad for lipid profiles.


----------



## gamorrah (Oct 19, 2004)

Mudge, Do you think boldenone/winny or Deca is a better safe cycle for someone 36 looking for slow/keepable gains with little sides? BTW, Im a little gyno sensitive and have joint problems from previous injuries.

  I realize that serious BB's dont run EQ alone, but I was happy with my gains and was wondering the following.

  All things considered, do you think boldenone(sydgroup 200mg/ml) or Deca is a safer bet?

  Would you recommend running EQ it with Winny?

  Is Proviron necessary?

  Is Tamoxifen sufficient PCT?

  I would appreciate your opinion.


  thx


----------



## Mudge (Oct 19, 2004)

dg806 said:
			
		

> Be careful with the Arimidex and femera. Bad for lipid profiles.



So is winny.

Deca = deca dick without test, at the age of 36 you'd be at greater risk of this, and some hardcore shutdown.

I still believe in test especially for a first cycle, any reason you are trying to avoid it?

Keepable gains is primarily dietary, if you dont eat right on or off cycle your results will reflect this.

I've never used proviron, never needed it. Tamoxifen is fine, although I'm going to use a clomid/nolva mix this time.


----------



## gamorrah (Oct 19, 2004)

Mudge said:
			
		

> I still believe in test especially for a first cycle, any reason you are trying to avoid it?


 I have taken, Deca, Sten, EQ before, this would be my 5 or 6th cycle over the last 20 years. I have some gyno/puffy nips from puberty still left over that I have managed to get rid of with diet and long term tamoxifen, andractim treatment. Im basically terrified of gyno/puffy nips and want to reduce the chances at all cost. I also dont really want any drastic effects (mass growth/water retention) that make it too obvious to my family and co workers that Im juicing. I was in MX last weekend and the pharm was pushing testosterone prop. (3) 250mg vials with pins, for around $15.00. Super cheap, I forget the brand, I was very tempted. He also offered HGH 4ui I believe for $55. If you had to advise a friend on a cycle that provided moderate keepable gains and low sides, at age 36, what would you advise?

  thanks Mudge!


----------

