# What exactly is overtraining?



## REACTION (Dec 3, 2003)

How much is too much? and why? What effect does this have also how does this differ if you are on juice?


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## Ezrolith (Dec 4, 2003)

If you do too many sets for you personally, your body won't recover for a long period of time, like more than a week, and if you are having too litle rest between training the same muscle twice it's like driving a car with a faulty engine and not letting the mechanic have a enough time to repair it fully   I know one thing, it varies from person to person, some people do 4 sets for muscle and its enough, some do 20.  A professional bodybuilder once told me that something like 80% of bodybuilders overtrain 90% of the time.


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## plouffe (Dec 5, 2003)

Not allowing a muscle group to recover before training it again.


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## rburton (Dec 5, 2003)

You should perform the precise number of sets necessary per bodypart to realize growth. Even though many people have made gains using multiple sets, you should perform no more than 1-3 sets per bodypart. You may do this type of training using either full-body or split routines, with 4-10 days between workouts. Once you have trained at most three cycles witout progress, you are overtrained. At that point, stop all training for 1-2 weeks, preferrably 2 weeks; whereupon you resume training with reduced volume, significantly reduced!


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 5, 2003)

Effects

Mental and Physical performance.


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## Arnold (Dec 5, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by plouffe *_
> Not allowing a muscle group to recover before training it again.



overtraining is much than that.


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 5, 2003)

Here, lets just do a break down:

*The Effects of Overtraining can lead to:*

Weakened Immune System:  
Why?  :  High performance athletes have chronically lowered immune systems. The high level of training leaves their immune systems frequently depressed so that, for example, if a group of athletes is training together, a flu bug will rapidly make its way around. It is said that, in immunological terms, high-performance athletes are some of the least healthy people around.

Amenorrhea:
Why?  :Many young female athletes in training experience absent menstrual cycles due to low body fat content. Exercising women with regular menstrual cycles and amenorrheic women who do not exercise excessively demonstrate a clear diurnal rhythm of leptin levels. Exercising women with amenorrhea lose this normal rhythm, which raises the possibility that this cycle is important for the maintenance of reproductive function. Leptin levels normally rise during the afternoon and reach a peak in the early hours of the morning, then decline towards dawn. 

For some women, simply explaining the need for adequate calorific intake to match energy expenditure results in increased intake and/or reduced exercise, and their menses resume. For those women in whom no other cause of amenorrhea can be found, but who are unable or unwilling to either increase food intake or decrease the amount of exercise, estrogen replacement therapy is strongly indicated. Appropriate therapy consists of any estrogen replacement regimen that includes endometrial protection.


*I'm sorry. I just don't have time to do this.  I usually try to be so helpful but, given I'm on a timeline here with year end, I really need to stay focused on technology vs. health.  Please accept my apologies.  I'm sorry. *


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 8, 2003)

Cont'd

Signs, Symptoms & Indicators of the Effects of Overtraining.

Vision Disturbances
Irritability
Being Anxious/Nervous
Individual Weak Muscles

Risk Factors for The Effects of Overtraining.
Excellent HDL Levels:
Very vigorous exercise and regular long-term heavy aerobic exercise can cause HDL levels to become especially elevated. This is in keeping with the fact that exercise raises HDL levels, and demostrates that overexertion produces further elevations. It is unlikely that there are any negative effects from this elevation, only cardiovascular benefits.

Treatment:

REST REST REST!!!!!!


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## ZECH (Dec 8, 2003)

Even if muscles are recouped, your CNS may not be!


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 8, 2003)

You may want to complete a break down on CNS for those who do not know or understand what that is and how it impacts......


You owe me an email.........


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## Arnold (Dec 8, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Even if muscles are recouped, your CNS may not be!



true dat!


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## Tha Don (Dec 8, 2003)

i think i'm overtraining

i just need more sleep + rest, just went from 3 to a 4 day split and have worked 2 8hour shifts over the weekend (at a new job... when normally i'd be resting)

today i've felt real weird, i've been burning up a bit, nervous, not standing straight, totally brain-dead, very stressed... its weird, i'm in no pain so 'm not ill just blatently exhausted

so after writing that i'm off to get my cottage cheese and hit the sack, very very tired!

peace


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 8, 2003)

Get some sleep and be sure to listen to your body.  If you're moody, etc......take a couple days off.  Go back when you feel good, physically and mentally.


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## camarosuper6 (Dec 8, 2003)

Learning to read your body is probably one of the hardest, but definitely most important things you can do.  I was so used to sticking to a schedule of working out, that I wouldnt miss a day for anything, when in all honesty I should have been going to the gym when my body was more recovered.  Now I workout about every 3 to 4 days, and Im making much better progress.  To each his own, but learn to listen to your body


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## BabsieGirl (Dec 8, 2003)

I agree with the post above


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## flexster (Dec 9, 2003)

Overtraining is different for everyone. I have friend that started working out aoubt 4 years ago when he was 17. He now weighs around 180 at 5'9. I think he started out around 150 or so. He can now bench 360. He training routine seems like overtraining to me but he continues to improve and the only thing he takes is cell-tech. He works each body part twice a week, Monday thru Saturday. Its the amount that he does each workout that dumbfounds me. He is doing 9 or more sets for each body part per workout. So he is doing 18 or more sets per body part a week. I dont see how he can do that  without burning out, unless he was juiced up. But once again, he is young and is not being affected like others might be.


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## gopro (Dec 9, 2003)

Its simple. Our bodies have a limited amount of recovery ability...this is both local (individual muscles) and systemic (our whole nervous system). Doing too many sets will cause a myriad of negative reactions within the body, which is what we call overtraining.

When a muscle is hit with too many sets, you will tear down fibers to the point that they will not properly recover.

Doing too many sets will begin to overtax the nervous system and without systemic recovery, their cannot be growth.

Doing too many sets will keep you in the gym longer and will cause a negative hormonal balance...too much cortisol and not enough testosterone. This means zero growth, and maybe even muscle atrophy.

We must have some reserve energy in order to recover from training because it is during THIS time that growth occurs. Think of it like this...when we train we dig a big hole (a negative state)... when we recover we fill in this whole (a neutral state)...when we overcompensate (our goal) we put some dirt on top of the hole to make a mound and we are now in a positive (read: bigger muscles/more strength) state.

So, we need to split our energy between 3 things:

-training
-recovery
-overcompensation


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## flexster (Dec 9, 2003)

I agree 100% gopro, just find it odd that my friend can go at it the way he does and still see results the way he is. I have never had an easy time at gaining the mass or strength, guess Im just jealous.


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## gopro (Dec 9, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by flexster *_
> I agree 100% gopro, just find it odd that my friend can go at it the way he does and still see results the way he is. I have never had an easy time at gaining the mass or strength, guess Im just jealous.



GENETICS is a huge part of all this. Some people have advantages that we could only dream of.


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## DeadBolt (Dec 9, 2003)

If you need alot of rest would it be ok if lets say you have a weeks vacation from work/school and all you did was sleep.  Just slept like 14 hours a day and relaxed for a week with a proper diet.  Would that be a bad thing or a good thing?


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## Dante B. (Dec 9, 2003)

It's not always a matter of too many sets alone; what's too little or too much is different for everyone.

Rather, too many sets taken too close (if not to) failure. And if you live a stressful life, it's that much worse.

If you train GVT-style or ROB-style, you can get away with more sets than you're accustomed to--assuming you're not doing a ridiculous number of sets to begin with.

If just about every set is taken to failure, or close to it, then you have to either reduce your number of sets, or decrease your intensity.


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## REACTION (Dec 10, 2003)

Thanks everyone for your responses, has been really helpful.


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## camarosuper6 (Dec 14, 2003)

Also, its not just your muscle that you could be overtraining.  Studies suggest muscles actually could be ready for another workout anywhere from 24 to 72 hours (depending on your genetics and such), but your CNS (central nervous system) usually takes much longer to fully recover, making most of us have to wait more days than people who have extremely fast recovery rates, usually due to genetics, anabolics, or both.


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## Dante B. (Dec 14, 2003)

And perhaps that should lead one to think:

What can I do to minimize the impact on my CNS? Do I have to constantly lift with the greatest instensity in order to stimulate growth?


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 14, 2003)

dammit, you can't just ask a question like that without answering it


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## Dante B. (Dec 14, 2003)

LOL

Fair enough 

Avoid failure, or rather, cycle volume and intensity.

And, yes, one doesn't have to train with high intensity----for the sake of this argument, defined as a set taken to either momentary or absolute failure---in order to gain strength or size.

If you're powerlifting, does any or every set have to be taken to failure in order to gain? No. 

If you're bodybuilding, does any or every set have to be taken to failure in order to make progress? No, for if that were the case, GVT and other volume oriented approaches wouldn't work at all.

As they say, variety is the spice of life.


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## HoldDaMayo (Dec 14, 2003)

I do mix up my workout, as far as reps and exercises... but the one constant is that I typically do 3-4 sets per exercise... I always take the last rep of the last set to momentary failure... I'm working each bodypart about once every 5-6 days... Is this going to impede my progress?


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## gopro (Dec 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Dante B. *_
> LOL
> 
> Fair enough
> ...



Once you reach a certain level, I respectfully disagree. Or at least firmly believe the most effective approach is total failure training.


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## TheRoyalOne (Dec 15, 2003)

If overtraining was meerly performing too many sets per week or per session then people like John Defendis would never be a big as they are. Read the "Intensity or Insanity" articles here: http://www.defendis.com/html/hardcore.html 
Overtraining comes from not allowing your body sufficient time to rest before submitting it to the stresses of an intense workout. The amount of time it takes for ones body to prepare itself for the next routine varies from person to person. Typicaly it takes between 24-72 hours. We each have to determine that time frame on our own.  I found a simple method of determinig your optimum rest period in a booklet called X-adaptation starting on page 40. PM me and I'll e-mail it to you. The security settings would not allow me to copy/paste the info into this page.


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## TheRoyalOne (Dec 15, 2003)

X-adaptation can also be downloaded from www.x-size.com They require that you regist4er with them to get it.


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## Dante B. (Dec 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Once you reach a certain level, I respectfully disagree. Or at least firmly believe the most effective approach is total failure training.



A certain level, perhaps. However for the majority, I don't believe it's the most effective approach by any means.

However, I certainly think it's useful to periodically train to total failure----in line with cycling volume and intensity.

No doubt, there are hundreds of ways to skin a cat, and as the cat gets wiser, you have to fool it.


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## Arnold (Dec 15, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Dante B. *_
> However, I certainly think it's useful to periodically train to total failure----in line with cycling volume and intensity.



this is the key IMO, you have to cycle training to failure just like anything else, or you will end up in a state of over training.

of course training to failure is only one of many variables that will contribute to over training.


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## gopro (Dec 16, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Dante B. *_
> A certain level, perhaps. However for the majority, I don't believe it's the most effective approach by any means.
> 
> However, I certainly think it's useful to periodically train to total failure----in line with cycling volume and intensity.
> ...



My volume remains exactly the same all year long. What does constantly change is training protocols, rep ranges, TUTs, rep speed, exercises, etc. However, all workouts contain the same amount of sets and take the same amount of time. All sets are taken to momentary concentric failure for sure, and often beyond this.

For beginners and intermediates, I do not believe failure training to be necessary, just "progression." But as you become advanced, I believe that failure training...the majority of time...becomes necessary to reach new heights.

There are many ways to skin a cat, but the wiser the cat, the more efficient training method he will use.


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## Dante B. (Dec 16, 2003)

> There are many ways to skin a cat, but the wiser the cat, the more efficient training method he will use



And that, of course, is where we disagree----what is truly efficient, in the many contexts (beginner, so on).


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## gopro (Dec 17, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Dante B. *_
> And that, of course, is where we disagree----what is truly efficient, in the many contexts (beginner, so on).



Don't think we disagree completely. Beginners through intermediates can train many different ways and progress nicely without ever hitting failure. It is the very advanced that I feel NEED to hit failure to progress. So perhaps we simply disagree about the latter, not the former.


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## BabsieGirl (Jan 26, 2004)

Bump.......For all those who do not know how to do a search!


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## Brak86 (Jan 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by camarosuper6 *_
> Also, its not just your muscle that you could be overtraining.  Studies suggest muscles actually could be ready for another workout anywhere from 24 to 72 hours (depending on your genetics and such), but your CNS (central nervous system) usually takes much longer to fully recover, making most of us have to wait more days than people who have extremely fast recovery rates, usually due to genetics, anabolics, or both.



So do u think mind-strenghtening exercises e.g. (meditation), would help ones CNS recover better? i love meditation and it does wonders...maybe it does help with faster CNS recovery...i dunno.. just a thought


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Once you reach a certain level, I respectfully disagree. Or at least firmly believe the most effective approach is total failure training.



Says who? 

It basicly comes down to that 98% of the people do not know how to tran effectivly.

Im really looking forward to this discussion, considering I have compiled tons of information on the subject and I feel people should be advised as to what NOT to do when training.


Kc


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> My volume remains exactly the same all year long. What does constantly change is training protocols, rep ranges, TUTs, rep speed, exercises, etc. However, all workouts contain the same amount of sets and take the same amount of time. All sets are taken to momentary concentric failure for sure, and often beyond this.
> 
> For beginners and intermediates, I do not believe failure training to be necessary, just "progression." But as you become advanced, I believe that failure training...the majority of time...becomes necessary to reach new heights.



Boy am i gunna have fun with this one.


Kc


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## MissOz (Jan 26, 2004)

Most athletes never overtrain because they carefully plan their training protocols over a 12 month period (macrocycle) I know this isn't appropriate for BB ( could be necessary when planning your competitve calender? )
 but it's a great way to goal set and stay focused long term !!!!


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 26, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MissOz *_
> Most athletes never overtrain because they carefully plan their training protocols over a 12 month period (macrocycle) I know this isn't appropriate for BB ( could be necessary when planning your competitve calender? )
> but it's a great way to goal set and stay focused long term !!!!




Actually that is untrue. Most athletes train to the point where they are overtraining. This is what is reffered to as 'overreaching' and should be done during the loading cycle. (7-14) days.

What is interesting with all these programs, Max-OT, HIT, GoPro's workouts, and many other programs is NONE of them maximally stimulate the system for adaption. 

The problem with things are like i said before, people dont understand the relationship between volume, intensity, frequency and density for bodybuilders. From what I've gathered Dante is on the right track but im not sure if he has the whole big picture, but im sure he would pretty much agree with everything i say. 

All i can say is expect something from me in the next month or so that will really hit the bodybuilding world and industrial as far as how people, especially bodybuilders organize their training. Unlike most of the other programs (discluding HST and DFHT) I'll have research on my side!


Kc


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## P-funk (Jan 26, 2004)

Fortified, I noticed the MelSiff.com link in your signature.  When will that site be up and running??  Also, do you know of a site where I can purchase 'supertraining"??  I can't seem to find it...lol


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 26, 2004)

We've been working on the Siff site for awhile now... not really making good progress lol

you can get ST from www.elitefts.com and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/supertraining/


Kc


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## P-funk (Jan 26, 2004)

thanks


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## MissOz (Jan 26, 2004)

Fortified I don't agree with you there on the point of "overtraining",  the athletes training cycle should not let them enter into the competition phase overtrained and/or injured . You can't train hard and play hard at the same time!!The whole idea behind macrocycle is to peak them in the best condition.


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 26, 2004)

Macrocycle is reffered to a year plan. A peak is considered a "Mesocycle" or "Microcycle" All are different lengths and all are for different purposes.

Ofcourse an athlete isnt going to be 'loading' before a competition, the athlete will be deloading or in a state or rest or moderate loading. 

It would be interesting to find out where you get your literature from on periodization.


Kc


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## MissOz (Jan 27, 2004)

Fort...I was just keeping things simple , I'm quite aware of periodization etc macro,meso,micro etc etc etc etc...it would be interesting to find out what exactly is your point ....Cheers x


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 27, 2004)

From what i've read we dont seem to be on the same page as far as the basic principles of periodization go and also understanding of managing load.

The whole point of periodization is to overreach then taper. It also might be good to get a proper definition of overreaching and overtraining as they are two totally seperate things.


Kc


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## MissOz (Jan 28, 2004)

Fort ....you should take a page out of Mel Siff's book !!!


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## gopro (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> Boy am i gunna have fun with this one.
> 
> 
> Kc



Oh really? C'mon, I need a good laugh.


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## gopro (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> Actually that is untrue. Most athletes train to the point where they are overtraining. This is what is reffered to as 'overreaching' and should be done during the loading cycle. (7-14) days.
> 
> What is interesting with all these programs, Max-OT, HIT, GoPro's workouts, and many other programs is NONE of them maximally stimulate the system for adaption.
> ...



You see, I just found this and already had a good laugh!! Here comes someone...whoever you are...that is going to "revolutionize" the way we train, and show why MY and several other very well known programs, are simply not optimal. And guess what? He'll have research on his side!! Maybe some nice studies...well worded and all with scientific like mumbo jumbo!

Well buddy, I could care less. You want to know what makes a program successful and what type of "study" really has meaning? That would be when tons and tons of people make the best gains of their life on a program...when they cannot believe how their body is changing for the better everyday...when you have been training for 14 years, hit a plateau, then go on a program and gain another 25-30 lbs of muscle...THAT IS SUCCESS and solid proof that the program works!

Go ahead and "show us the way." Just try and not to be so arrogant as to think that your way is the very best way..b/c its not. There are extremely effective ways to train and ways that suck. There is no "best." P/RR/S has proven itself to be incredibly effective for countless #s of people and it is growing by leaps and bounds...but Max -OT, HIT, and several others are also on top of the heap.

Man, I really love this bullsh%t.


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## ponyboy (Jan 28, 2004)

Oh, come on GP...you know that if studies can prove it, then it must be true?  I can refer you to at least two studies that can prove that.  

I'm waiting to see this thing that is going to "hit the bodybuilding world and industrial" with this new groundbreaking research.


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## Arnold (Jan 28, 2004)

FortifiedIron is omniscient.


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> You see, I just found this and already had a good laugh!! Here comes someone...whoever you are...that is going to "revolutionize" the way we train, and show why MY and several other very well known programs, are simply not optimal. And guess what? He'll have research on his side!! Maybe some nice studies...well worded and all with scientific like mumbo jumbo!
> 
> Well buddy, I could care less. You want to know what makes a program successful and what type of "study" really has meaning? That would be when tons and tons of people make the best gains of their life on a program...when they cannot believe how their body is changing for the better everyday...when you have been training for 14 years, hit a plateau, then go on a program and gain another 25-30 lbs of muscle...THAT IS SUCCESS and solid proof that the program works!
> ...



lol, I also love the bullshit of imaginary muscle fibers 

Ok Mr. Pro, I think you agree with me that stress= adaption. Granted each indvidual has a different rate at which they adapt but the bottom line is that Stress is the key factor for adaption. Now would you please enlighten me with your 'way' of thinking and with 'your' research as to the best way to 'apply' stress maximally to stimulate 'adaption'

You might also want to forget about your little comments about how studies are irrelavent, unlike you (your fiber studies) my studies i post and write about not only come from scientist but world renown Eastern Bloc and Western coaches. Namely Fry, Siff, Zatsiorsky, Stone and several others. Which of course these individuals have accomplished more then what the majority of us will ever in life.

Also before you even think about replying back, you better open up your books regarding periodization.


Kc


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> FortifiedIron is omniscient.



 That is interesting considering that just in another thread or other threads you seem to be avoiding post.

Kc


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## ponyboy (Jan 28, 2004)

My dad can beat up your dad.  I have a study that proves it.  

Dude, it's the internet.  Holy crap.


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by ponyboy *_
> Oh, come on GP...you know that if studies can prove it, then it must be true?  I can refer you to at least two studies that can prove that.
> 
> I'm waiting to see this thing that is going to "hit the bodybuilding world and industrial" with this new groundbreaking research.




Actually the line of thinking is very similar to that of DFHT and HST, but with different loading patterns and different approach to volume/loading and other things.

Kc


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## gopro (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> lol, I also love the bullshit of imaginary muscle fibers
> 
> Ok Mr. Pro, I think you agree with me that stress= adaption. Granted each indvidual has a different rate at which they adapt but the bottom line is that Stress is the key factor for adaption. Now would you please enlighten me with your 'way' of thinking and with 'your' research as to the best way to 'apply' stress maximally to stimulate 'adaption'
> ...


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## Arnold (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> That is interesting considering that just in another thread or other threads you seem to be avoiding post.
> 
> Kc



Yes, you are correct KC, your intellect is so incredibly high and your knowledge is infinite, I cannot possibly argue with you. You think and speak on a level that is beyond my comprehension. I can only dream to aspire to be half the person that you are, and achieve what you have in life, congratulations...shhhh...I think I hear WBB calling you.


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## camarosuper6 (Jan 28, 2004)

Whoa.

It seems the further we delve into the science of bodybuilding, the more we tend to disagree.  It wasnt too many years ago that there was a standard set by certain people in the business, and it was followed religiously, even though there were no scientific facts or research backing many things bodybuilders used to do.  Then of course things got interesting, and especially in the last 5 years or so,  science has shown us things in bodybuilding that is truly changing the way people approach this whole idea of building muscle.  Yet, we disagree now more than ever in history.

I think this is great.  I love the debates, the discussions applying different theories to see what works best.  But in all honesty, if we HAVE learned one thing in the past 30 years or so, it should be that our technology has allowed us to learn tons of great information we used to never know, but at the same time, science is much like the Bible.  It gives us a great outline, but doesnt always get into the details.  Thats for each person to discover on their OWN.

You can debate day and night about this that and what not, but hell, I think half the fun of bodybuilding and science, is trial, and error and getting the chance to see YOUR OWN BODY change and adapt and improve.  In all honesty, each person is different, and even though there are certain principles of science and hypertrophy that shouldnt be ignored, the simple fact that something works for you that may not be scientifically as effecient as another method according to the laws of whatever, the beauty is because we are each so different, there will always be something going on that doesnt always perfectly equate to the way science says it should.

Fortified Iron has great points.  GoPro has great points. Thats whats so fun about all of this.  There are a million different ways to get to where your going, instead of getting heated about how you get there, enjoy the journey because each persons is unique.


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## camarosuper6 (Jan 28, 2004)

Sorry, Ill get off my soapbox now 

Oh yea, overtraining is trying to please your wife on valentines day after forgetting her birthday a week earlier. 

That simple.


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## CowPimp (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by camarosuper6 *_
> Sorry, Ill get off my soapbox now
> 
> Oh yea, overtraining is trying to please your wife on valentines day after forgetting her birthday a week earlier.
> ...



Yeah, if the forgetting of your wife's birthday didn't result in an injury...


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_



Your programs dont impress me, nor do i care to follow them or have others follow them. I dont go with the hype of things, especially things that have no merit. 

Funny how you say 100% effort..Im applying 100% effort with my fingers to type this.. but yet i dont notice any great amounts of hypertrophy! 

Individuals cant allways apply 100% effort into what they do, do to several stressors. Its called Cybernetic Periodization.. just thought id 'enlighten' you on that btw.

PS... If you wanna be a little cock about it, i'll be one right back.. and im sure you wont want what i have to say to you. It has a WHOLE lot to do with Elite and WBB and your past status on those boards!!!!


Kc


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## darklight (Jan 28, 2004)

I think the key here is rest (mean that have a FULL friday night rest) and good nutrition! Besides, we have to know our body's! If you feel that you can push up, do it! But if don't, don't insist.

I'm giving now 48 hrs for each group to rest! for me is very enough! Only legs, sometimes need a little bit more...


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## CowPimp (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> Your programs dont impress me, nor do i care to follow them or have others follow them. I dont go with the hype of things, especially things that have no merit.
> 
> Funny how you say 100% effort..Im applying 100% effort with my fingers to type this.. but yet i dont notice any great amounts of hypertrophy!
> ...



Despite your differences in opinion with GoPro, there is no need to bash his program.  Since joining these boards, I have seen nothing but positive response to his program.  The only "hype" behind his program is the excellent results of longtime bodybuilders.  I have a feeling the only reason he was "being a cock" (Although it's subjective) is because you were talking down on his program.  He is probably very proud of it, and you attacked his pride.  He has every right to be proud of it.

Don't take this post the wrong way.  I don't necessarily doubt your program.  I will save my judgement until after people try it out.  I may even try it out if I were to hit another plateau.  Good luck with it, and I hope it's as ground breaking as you claim it to be.  It can only benefit the bodybuilding world.  Just don't go bashing other people's hard work, especially when it is successful.


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## Nate (Jan 28, 2004)

Alright, here's a question for you guys:

I've been maintaining my bodyweight of about 170lbs for something like six months now.  During that time, I managed to make small strength gains while eating essentially the same thing and staying the same weight.  I like the way I look, so my goal is just to maintain, like I said before. 

Now, in the past two weeks or so, I've noticed myself putting on a little bit of bodyfat while keeping my calories the same as they've been, as well as macronutrients.  My training intensity has also been high.  Is this a sign of overtraining?  Maybe I should eat a little over maintenance for a week as far as calories are concerned?  Maybe I should take a week off?


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## ponyboy (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> Your programs dont impress me, nor do i care to follow them or have others follow them. I dont go with the hype of things, especially things that have no merit.
> 
> Funny how you say 100% effort..Im applying 100% effort with my fingers to type this.. but yet i dont notice any great amounts of hypertrophy!
> ...



There is a difference between knowing what you are talking about and being an arrogant know it all.   Just thought I'd 'enlighten' you on that btw.  

GoPro's program works.  Many of us here can attest to that including myself.  When your program is ready, publish it and I'm sure many of us will try it out - until then, I'd suggest canning the attitude until you have REAL LIFE results to back you up, not just studies done on control groups or the latest quote from a 'world renowned' strength coach.


----------



## FortifiedIron (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by ponyboy *_
> There is a difference between knowing what you are talking about and being an arrogant know it all.   Just thought I'd 'enlighten' you on that btw.
> 
> GoPro's program works.  Many of us here can attest to that including myself.  When your program is ready, publish it and I'm sure many of us will try it out - until then, I'd suggest canning the attitude until you have REAL LIFE results to back you up, not just studies done on control groups or the latest quote from a 'world renowned' strength coach.



I guess being 260 and attempting a 500bp and 700lb dl in the near future (within 8 months) oviously means i have no 'real life results' to back up what i've said.

GoPro's workouts work im sure for some individuals, but how do you know your optimally stimulating the system for adaption to the training stress placed on it? 

You can easily maniuplate his workouts to be more effective, such as increasing the volume, frequency, density (fatigue), volume of loading (intensity over time) all at once. 

This can be done very easily if one knows how to periodize their training effectivly. Such as 2wk regular loading, 2 overloading wks, 2 deloading wks, repeat. This is the approach im following at the moment for strength and could have value to bodybuilding but, i think the whole cycles should be regards to 8 wks. By training during the overload period you are causing the body to overreach (check out work from Fry et al). At this state you are entering in a mild state of overtraining. During this time one should back off of trainign which is reffered as deloading. During the deloading phase the body goes into a state of repare or adaption. By over reaching you are taping into the higher energy levels of the system and maximally stressing it to its near max. 

Here is an example of my strength program:

Week 1-2 (regular loading)
-Mean intensity 80%
-volume 130-155 (lifts at 80%-90%)
- 3 Training sessions

Wk 1-2

Workout 1
Bench Press 3x5 80% (raw)
Rack Press 5x3 90% 
Shirted bench 4x4 80% (shirt max)

Workout 2
Squat 3x5 80%
box squats 3x5 80%
Power Snatch 3x5 80%

Workout 3
Deadlift 3x5 80%
Below knee 5x3 90%
GM 3x5 90%


Week 3-4 (loading)
- Mean intensity 90%+
- Volume 160-200 (lifts at 90%+)
- 4 Training sessions


Workout 1
Bench Press 3x2 90%
Rack Press 3x3 95% 3x3 115% 
Shirted bench 3x2 80% 2x1 95% 1x1 100% 1x1 102.5% (shirt max)

Workout 2
Squat 3x2 80% 2x1 95% 1x1 100% 1x1 102.5% 
box squats 5x3 90%
Power Snatch 3x3 90%

Workout 3
Deadlift 3x3 85% 3x2 90% 1x1 100%
Below knee 5x3 110%
GM 4x4 95%


Workout 4 
Push Press 3x3 90%
Snatch Grip High Pull 3x3 90%
Glut Ham Raise 4x!

Weeks 5-6 (deloading)
Mean Intensity 30-50%
Volume 50-70 lifts (30-50%)
Frequency 2 training sessions



Workout 1.
Box sq 8x3 40%
Power Snatch 3x5 50%

Workout 2
Bench 8x3 40%
Close grip 3x5 40%
Hang clean 3x5 40%

Like i said pay key attention to the volume,loading, and frequency. I dont care to much about frequency during this program in training for strength.

I'll continue my post shortly.


Kc


----------



## gopro (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> Your programs dont impress me, nor do i care to follow them or have others follow them. I dont go with the hype of things, especially things that have no merit.
> 
> Funny how you say 100% effort..Im applying 100% effort with my fingers to type this.. but yet i dont notice any great amounts of hypertrophy!
> ...



Bring up anything you want big guy...nothing bad happened with me at Elite, and WBB is a big joke to me. I still get emails from guys from WBB asking me for my help...many are on my program. If you want to bring up "steroid" talk over at Elite I can give you links to many more sites that I talk about them...all of it has already been explained. 

Once again...don't come to this site and try to promote your "program" as elite or superior to anyones. If you want to come here and write out your ideas, do so without atacking anyone's program, whether it be mine, Mentzers, or AST's. When I put my program out there I just wrote it out and told people that this is what I used to add my last 30 lbs of muscle...but I DID NOT say it was the "best program in the world!" People just started using it and the feedback has been incredible. An article has already appeared about it in Musclemag and soon more in Ironman. I am thankful that it is proving itself so successful and that it is becoming so popular...but still, I will not call it THE BEST like you want to infer your program is.

Don't call me a "cock!" Pull your own out of your mouth and act like a gentlemen or you will find yourself banned from THIS site!

And by the way...I did the 500 lb bench many years ago without EVER focusing on strength and have already been over 270. So, don't throw out the numbers buddy. You already critcized ME for doing that, so practice what you preach big guy!


----------



## Arnold (Jan 28, 2004)

FortifiedIron is obviously very insecure, and apparently an unhappy person, otherwise he would not insult everyone and brag about how great he and his program are.

The difference between FortifiedIron and people like gopro and myself, is you post on boards to try and argue and prove people wrong, helping people is not your true agenda...your motive is to simply feed your ego and bring others down to your level.


----------



## gopro (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> FortifiedIron is obviously very insecure, and apparently an unhappy person, otherwise he would not insult everyone and brag about how great he and his program are.
> 
> The difference between FortifiedIron and people like gopro and myself, is you post on boards to try and argue and prove people wrong, helping people is not your true agenda...your motive is to simply feed your ego and bring others down to your level.



Well said Prince...just watch as his responses get more and more "low level," as we go. Personal attacks will become the main adgenda.


----------



## M.J.H. (Jan 28, 2004)

Not to get in the middle of this at all, but Kyle (FortifiedIron) definitely knows his stuff. You can read up on his articles and the guy is definitely knowledgeable. I just think he's a bit frustrated that is all. Please do not ban him, or anything of the sort, I think he's a valuable addition to IM. 

I completely agree that calling you (gopro) a c*ck was out of line, and uncalled for. Name calling on a message board is useless, and immature. 

I also want to add that gopro definitely knows his sh*t, and I have read testimonial after testimonial about the P-RR-S routine talking about how excellent the results were. 

So again, I am not trying to get in the middle of it, I just see this as more immature and not a mature debate, like it should be between 2 intelligent members who definitely have a lot to offer.


----------



## Arnold (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by MonStar *_
> I think he's a valuable addition to IM.



unfortunately he has proven that this is not his objective in coming here.


----------



## Fade (Jan 28, 2004)

Why do people think that there is only one workout that works and it works for everybody???

Variety is the spice of life. Some people like Gopros some people like HIT some people like FortifiedIrons.

As we all know different workouts work better for one person but not another.

And some people just flat out don't want to do your particular workout


Get the f**k over it.

Why do post on training beliefs almost always end up in a flame war?

Just post your damn workout. If someone wants to follow it fine if they don't and choose to follow someone elses then that's fine too.

my 2cents


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 28, 2004)

I could really give a rats ass what you guys say about me or think you know about me or wha tyou think im trying to do. My goal is to help find a better way and better individuals training.

If you would please GoPro, get on topic and reffer to my above post. 


Kc


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 28, 2004)

and btw, GoPro.. you might wanna go back and read where i've stated "DFHT and HST are great programs" I do however feel they are far superior to what Max-ot, your programs are, and HIT (in all forms)


Kc


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## Arnold (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> I could really give a rats ass what you guys say about me or think you know about me or wha tyou think im trying to do. My goal is to help find a better way and better individuals training.
> 
> If you would please GoPro, get on topic and reffer to my above post.
> ...



If this is true and you are genuine in wanting to help people I highly recommend that you find a better way of conveying your thoughts and ideas, or you will most certainly fail in your endeavors. Communication is key, 93% of communicating is not what you say, but how you say it.


----------



## Fade (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> and btw, GoPro.. you might wanna go back and read where i've stated "DFHT and HST are great programs" I do however feel they are far superior to what Max-ot, your programs are, and HIT (in all forms)
> 
> 
> Kc


Dude....his workouts work for people and your workouts work for people. People like his and people like yours.

Just leave it at that.


----------



## FortifiedIron (Jan 28, 2004)

Which is exactly right. Maybe you should go back and edit the post where GoPro said my post where in fact "Bullshit" and maybe you should possibly tell him that he needs to get back on track, instread of resorting to name calling.

Josh Henkin once told me "The person who starts the personal attacks on one another is the person who is the most insecure about their logic and ways of thinking"


Kc


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Fade *_
> Dude....his workouts work for people and your workouts work for people. People like his and people like yours.
> 
> Just leave it at that.



If you look closely, real closely you will see that i posed they probably do, but i do not feel they are the optimal way to stimulate adaption. 

Maybe you didnt read that part?


Kc


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## Arnold (Jan 28, 2004)

*What's the best? The Mystery of Sets and Reps for Training
By FortifiedIron *

We are all Different:
Yup its true! We are not the same. Everybody on this earth is different and we all respond to different methods of training for sets and reps. Some people gain hypertrophy from 4x6 methods and others gain from 3x8-12 methods. Neither of these are correct and neither are incorrect. The two individuals respond to each training regimen differently.

Final thought:
Next time you structure your workout remember what I shown you above. Don???t try and be like anybody. Your you not Ronnie Coleman or the great me ( I know ) Find what works for you and helps you achieve your goals. Good luck in the future.


----------



## FortifiedIron (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> *What's the best? The Mystery of Sets and Reps for Training
> By FortifiedIron *
> 
> ...



A very poor wrote article IMO, i'll even critiz myself.

And again, if you understood the point of my post above.. there is no set program.. there is not set of exercises or sets. Its a group of principles that can be followed. 

Kc


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## Arnold (Jan 28, 2004)

The best part of your article was this: "Find what works for you and helps you achieve your goals."


----------



## Fade (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> but i do not feel they are the optimal way to stimulate adaption.
> 
> 
> Kc



Yeah not for you. You found what works for you.

But maybe it works for other people...maybe it pushes them as for as they can go physically and as far as their recuperative ability can go.


I don't use his workout and I don't use yours...why...because the one I created for myself works for me. I've been doing this long enough to know too.


----------



## FortifiedIron (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> The best part of your article was this: "Find what works for you and helps you achieve your goals."



Wow your exactly right, as If i didnt have a clue about it!


Kc


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## MissOz (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> You see, I just found this and already had a good laugh!! Here comes someone...whoever you are...that is going to "revolutionize" the way we train, and show why MY and several other very well known programs, are simply not optimal. And guess what? He'll have research on his side!! Maybe some nice studies...well worded and all with scientific like mumbo jumbo!
> 
> Well buddy, I could care less. You want to know what makes a program successful and what type of "study" really has meaning? That would be when tons and tons of people make the best gains of their life on a program...when they cannot believe how their body is changing for the better everyday...when you have been training for 14 years, hit a plateau, then go on a program and gain another 25-30 lbs of muscle...THAT IS SUCCESS and solid proof that the program works!
> ...



well said...next time I won't be so polite


----------



## FortifiedIron (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Fade *_
> Yeah not for you. You found what works for you.
> 
> But maybe it works for other people...maybe it pushes them as for as they can go physically and as far as their recuperative ability can go.
> ...



Again, like i said. The model of periodization that i posted (very similar to Yuri Verkhoskansky's conjugated model) has been studied by thousands of scientist and coaches around the world. If it has been used to train WR holding athletes in Weightlifting, track and field and every other event in the olympics then im pretty sure the majority of the individuals who follow the principles will more then likely beable to increase adaption. 


Kc


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 28, 2004)

Also you might find a good use in looking up the Fitness Fatigue model or Dual Factor Model. 

Kc


----------



## Fade (Jan 28, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> Again, like i said. The model of periodization that i posted (very similar to Yuri Verkhoskansky's conjugated model) has been studied by thousands of scientist and coaches around the world. If it has been used to train WR holding athletes in Weightlifting, track and field and every other event in the olympics then im pretty sure the majority of the individuals who follow the principles will more then likely beable to increase adaption.
> 
> 
> Kc


I never said anything about the model you posted.

Yes it has been used by WR hold athletes but joe shmoe might not be looking for that.


----------



## ponyboy (Jan 29, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> I guess being 260 and attempting a 500bp and 700lb dl in the near future (within 8 months) oviously means i have no 'real life results' to back up what i've said.
> 
> GoPro's workouts work im sure for some individuals, but how do you know your optimally stimulating the system for adaption to the training stress placed on it?
> ...



This is a powerlifting routine.  How is the world does this apply to everyday people like myself and countless others?  You do realize that for the average person lifting like this is dangerous and nonfunctional - doing olympic lifting is fine for a limited few who have been training for a long time, but I could never apply this routine to any clients at my gym.  Therefore to me this routine is useless.  I wouldn't even try it myself.  

How would you adjust this program to the average person who had only been lifting for 1 year or less?


----------



## M.J.H. (Jan 29, 2004)

I can attest to the Fitness Fatigue model, I read about it in 'Supertraining' and used it for a while actually, with good results I might add. 

And ponyboy, that was Kyle's strength routine. This is what he wrote just before the program: 



> Here is an example of my strength program:


I am sure that his hypertrophy program is different.


----------



## ponyboy (Jan 29, 2004)

Ah - I took that to mean that it was an example of his program for others.  My bad.


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## CowPimp (Jan 29, 2004)

That is a seriously intense strength program.  I am definitely interested in gaining strength, but I rarely have a spotter.  A routine like that would be dangerous for me, and probably most other people.  However, it looks very effective.


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## x~factor (Jan 29, 2004)

So is there any truth to this?

"There is no such thing as overtraining. Just under eating."


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 29, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by ponyboy *_
> This is a powerlifting routine.  How is the world does this apply to everyday people like myself and countless others?  You do realize that for the average person lifting like this is dangerous and nonfunctional - doing olympic lifting is fine for a limited few who have been training for a long time, but I could never apply this routine to any clients at my gym.  Therefore to me this routine is useless.  I wouldn't even try it myself.
> 
> How would you adjust this program to the average person who had only been lifting for 1 year or less?



I had said it was for strength not hypertrophy. You will def. need to modify the program for hypertrophy. The point of that post was to show the relationship between the volume and the intensity. You can see how it increases and decreases together.

Id also like for you to explain to me just how this program is dangerous?

Id also like to know what you have to go off this comment as well "doing olympic lifting is fine for a limited few who have been training for a long time"?


Kc


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## Nate (Jan 29, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Nate *_
> Alright, here's a question for you guys:
> 
> I've been maintaining my bodyweight of about 170lbs for something like six months now.  During that time, I managed to make small strength gains while eating essentially the same thing and staying the same weight.  I like the way I look, so my goal is just to maintain, like I said before.
> ...



Still looking for an answer amidst the fireworks...!


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## gopro (Jan 29, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Nate *_
> Still looking for an answer amidst the fireworks...!



Many factors could be contributing to this. If you ARE in fact overtrained, the excess cortisol could be adding bodyfat to your frame. You may want to try this simple strategy and see what happens.

1- Lower your training intensity a bit by not taking any sets to failure in your workout. Keep volume the same, but basically, do not work as hard as usual.
2-Lower daily carbohydrate intake by 25 g and raise protein intake by 25 g.

Give this 2 weeks and see if your body normalizes.


----------



## CowPimp (Jan 29, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> I had said it was for strength not hypertrophy. You will def. need to modify the program for hypertrophy. The point of that post was to show the relationship between the volume and the intensity. You can see how it increases and decreases together.
> 
> Id also like for you to explain to me just how this program is dangerous?
> ...



It is dangerous for anyone who doesn't have a spotter.  As I said, most of the time I don't have one.  As well, the chance for injury seems to increase with increased weight.  I'm not worried about injury myself, as I am young.  However, the lack of a spotter would definitely ruin me.


----------



## FortifiedIron (Jan 29, 2004)

The chance of injury increases with anybody lifting weights.. dispit what they think they know. I do believe not long ago GoPro suffered a hamstring or quad injury getting ready for his contest?

As for the heavy weight, its not the weight that is the problem.. its the individual. There is plenty of research to support ballistic training, powerlifting, and olympic lifts as having less injuries then things such as aerobics and bodybuilding.


Kc


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## CowPimp (Jan 29, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> The chance of injury increases with anybody lifting weights.. dispit what they think they know. I do believe not long ago GoPro suffered a hamstring or quad injury getting ready for his contest?
> 
> As for the heavy weight, its not the weight that is the problem.. its the individual. There is plenty of research to support ballistic training, powerlifting, and olympic lifts as having less injuries then things such as aerobics and bodybuilding.
> ...



Alright, that may be true, but it is definitely dangerous if you don't have a spotter.  Many people do not have the luxury of one.


----------



## Nate (Jan 29, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Many factors could be contributing to this. If you ARE in fact overtrained, the excess cortisol could be adding bodyfat to your frame. You may want to try this simple strategy and see what happens.
> 
> 1- Lower your training intensity a bit by not taking any sets to failure in your workout. Keep volume the same, but basically, do not work as hard as usual.
> ...



Great, thank you.

 

I've definitely gotta shake things up a bit.  I mean, my training is always varied, but my diet has been really really stagnant.


----------



## FortifiedIron (Jan 29, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by CowPimp *_
> Alright, that may be true, but it is definitely dangerous if you don't have a spotter.  Many people do not have the luxury of one.



I've seen over 700lbs droped inside a rack while a guy was benching, didnt even leave a scratch on him. I've seen 1000+lb squats dumped, again.. no injury to the lifter.

I do however agree there is a need for spotters. Today i was getting handoffs with 315 in the bench from my g/f and another individual im training.

Kc


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## camarosuper6 (Jan 30, 2004)

So Fort, would you mind giving me an example or maybe emailing me a program similar to your powerlifting one, but aimed for hypertrophy instead of strength?

Just curious.
Thanks


----------



## FortifiedIron (Jan 30, 2004)

I'll have one posted shortly. 


Kc


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 30, 2004)

*Week 1-2 (regular training)*
Upper day 1:
Bench Press 3x6
Close grip 3x6
Push down 3x6
DB shrugs 3x6
Weighted pull ups 3xF
Military Press 3x6
Preacher Curls 3x6

Upper day 2: 
Incline Press 3x6
Fly???s 3x6
Triceps extensions 3x6
Barbell Shrug 3x6
Upright Rows 3x6
Push Press 3x6
Barbell Curl 3x6

Lower day 1:
Squat 3x6
Leg Press 3x6
Good morning 3x6
Glut Ham Raise 3x6
Straight Leg Deadlift 3x6

Lower day 2:
Deadlift 3x6 
Front Squat 3x6
Weighted Step-ups 3x6
High Pull 3x6
Standing Calf Raises 3x10


*Loading phase 3-4 weeks*
Upper day 1:
Flat bench  3x8
Skull Crushers 3x8
Iso-metric Plate raises 3x6 (5 Second pause at top)
Power Shrugs 3x8
Lat Pull downs 3x8
Bicep Curls 3x8

Upper day 2:
Incline DB press 3x8
Barbell overhead extensions 3x8
Barbell Curls 3x8
Iso-metric DB shrugs 5x5 (5 second pause at top)
Upright Rows 3x8
Push Press 3x8

Upper day 3:
Decline Bench Press 3x8
Weighted Dips 3x8
Preacher Curls 3x8
Seated DB Press 3x8
Dumbell Rows 3x8

Lower day 1:
Squat 3x8
Good Morning 3x8
Glut Ham Raise 3x8
Seated Calf Raises 5x10

Lower day 2:
Deadlift 3x8 
Front Squat 3x8
Weighted Step-ups 3x8
Standing Calf Raises 5x10

Lower day 3:
Leg Press 3x8
Straight Leg Deadlift 3x8
Glut Ham raise 3x8
Seated Calf Raises 5x10


*Tapering 5-6 weeks*

Upper day 1:
Bench 2x10
Close grip 2x10
Military Press 2x10
Upright row 2x10
Hammer Curls 2x10

Lower day 1:
Squat 2x10
Deadlift 2x10
Glut Ham raise 1x10
GM 2x10


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## myCATpowerlifts (Jan 30, 2004)

REOOWWW!!!! SOUNDS LIKE A DAMNED CAT FIGHT....lol


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## myCATpowerlifts (Jan 30, 2004)

Not to insult you in anyway fortified...but your *advanced, revolutionary* example program...looks exactly like a lot of other BB's out there. i even know some people who workout with me, that have very similar programs....


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## camarosuper6 (Jan 31, 2004)

Fort, do you take all sets to failure, or do you leave a rep in the tank?  This reminds me a lot of the DFHT program I tried.  Do you workout each bodypart 2x per week as well, switching back and forth such as 

Mon: Upper
Tues: Lower
Wed: Break
Thurs: Upper
Fri: Lower
Sat Off
Sun Off


Thanks
Dave


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 31, 2004)

You never train to failure as it is not needed for hypertrophy. The only time you do train to failure is when there is a F next to the sets. 

During the regular loading phase you train like that, during the overreaching phase you train everything 3x's a wk. 

The principle is very similar to DFHT.

As for CATp. Id be interested to see how your friends train and periodize their program. Also if you go back and read you'll see that i said "this will change the way alot of them train" and it should. Im not doing anything but putting together years of research from some of the best scientist on earth, and the real popularity should go to those guys for doing.


Kc


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## camarosuper6 (Jan 31, 2004)

Gotcha.


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## camarosuper6 (Jan 31, 2004)

what about the HST principle of training 3 times per week because of the mRNA and ribosome factor (decreasing after 48 hours) ?  You only believe in a 2 per week instead of 3 ?

Also, do u increase the weights during the overreaching phase or just increase reps with the same weight ?

Im curious because I dont exactly know how the program works.


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 31, 2004)

You need to increase the loading volume (weight progressivly).

I believe in the mRN, ribosome and PS all subside after 36-48hrs of training.

Kc


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## camarosuper6 (Jan 31, 2004)

Thanks, appreciate the input.  Am looking forward to your finalized version so I can give it a run.


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 31, 2004)

The thing is there isnt a program, its a set of principles to follow.


Kc


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## gopro (Jan 31, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> You never train to failure as it is not needed for hypertrophy. The only time you do train to failure is when there is a F next to the sets.
> 
> During the regular loading phase you train like that, during the overreaching phase you train everything 3x's a wk.
> ...



Just a quick question for you Fortified. Do you EVER think there is a time that training to failure is necessary? And, is this effected at all by training age?


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## FortifiedIron (Jan 31, 2004)

training to failure is a TOOL and only a tool. I would never suggest anybody train to failure on a regular bases due to the effects it has on the neverous system and motor endplates at the fiber. 

As for age, that is hard to determine. I know peope who are 40yrs old bench pressing 850 and squat over 1k. Age does have a negative effect on one's ability to sustain stress over a given time period, but that is the job of the lifter to alter their training inorder to overcome that problem.
Kc


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## myCATpowerlifts (Feb 1, 2004)

Bench press 850 LBS????
Isnt the world record like 805 right now????
fortified, youll have to prove it, b4 i even consider it


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## FortifiedIron (Feb 1, 2004)

The bench press record is 900 now by Gene R., Scott Mendelson put up 875.23 for. Shawn Lattimer who at 26 (youngest bencher to bench over 800lbs) put up 835.

You can find vids and everything on FI.com


Kc


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## myCATpowerlifts (Feb 1, 2004)

wow!


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## Arnold (Feb 1, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> training to failure is a TOOL and only a tool. I would never suggest anybody train to failure on a regular bases due to the effects it has on the neverous system and motor endplates at the fiber.



agreed.


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## myCATpowerlifts (Feb 1, 2004)

FI.com??
are ya sure that is like a business website


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## gopro (Feb 1, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> training to failure is a TOOL and only a tool. I would never suggest anybody train to failure on a regular bases due to the effects it has on the neverous system and motor endplates at the fiber.
> 
> As for age, that is hard to determine. I know peope who are 40yrs old bench pressing 850 and squat over 1k. Age does have a negative effect on one's ability to sustain stress over a given time period, but that is the job of the lifter to alter their training inorder to overcome that problem.
> Kc



I did not say AGE, but TRAINING age...meaning amount of years a person has been training.

I will not get into an argument, but I only asked b/c I completely disagree. Once a person has been training for a certain amount of time, I feel that training to failure and beyond for weeks at a time is necessary for gains in hypertrophy. Nervous system recovery is easily taken care of with proper nutrition, supplements, low training volume, and rest.

I do agree that from the beginning through early intermediate stages that training to failure is less of a necessity, and progressive resistance is king.

Anyway, carry on with whatever you are talking about here...


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## FortifiedIron (Feb 1, 2004)

GoPro,
If you where going to ask the specific question and not be clear, do not make a comeback post acting like a prick. Besides, if you where as great as you make yourself out to be then you would have posted with the terms "Fitness state" rather then age of training. Because really 'age' in which you are reffering to as time can be disregarded and very inacurrate. Especially when you are reffering to 'fitness state' or 'overal conditioning of the individual', you of all people should know the difference.

I do however feel this is a good debate and im more then ready to discuss it if you have the balls. (yes consider that a challenge)

Kc


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## CowPimp (Feb 1, 2004)

So you think that my gains might actually improve if I were to stop going to failure?  I go to failure on an average of one set per lift.  Usually, I make the last set to failure.  I have only been lifting for 8 months.  However, I lifted about 4 years before that for another period of 9 months.


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## gopro (Feb 2, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> GoPro,
> If you where going to ask the specific question and not be clear, do not make a comeback post acting like a prick. Besides, if you where as great as you make yourself out to be then you would have posted with the terms "Fitness state" rather then age of training. Because really 'age' in which you are reffering to as time can be disregarded and very inacurrate. Especially when you are reffering to 'fitness state' or 'overal conditioning of the individual', you of all people should know the difference.
> 
> ...



Wow, you are one insecure SOB. I did not act like a prick at all. Sorry I didn't use "terminology" YOU are familiar with, but I just happen to use the term "training age" (as Poliquin does) to simply describe amount of years one has been training. If you were not sure what I was referring to, all you had to do is say,"What exactly do you mean by this?" Very easy...very simple.

And in my eyes this is NOT a debate at all. You see, what YOU will do is refer me to bunch of "scientific" studies by Siff, or a bunch of Eatern Bloc phenomenons and I will not give a sh%t. MY scientific studies, done over the past 15 years has already proven to me time and again what works, so there is nothing you can say to prove me otherwise. Results do not lie...and when they happen in the "first person" and with everyone you have had the pleasure to train you pretty much become sure of what you are doing.

But feel free to say anything you want to everyone here. Just try not to be so damn insecure my man.


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## FortifiedIron (Feb 2, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Wow, you are one insecure SOB. I did not act like a prick at all. Sorry I didn't use "terminology" YOU are familiar with, but I just happen to use the term "training age" (as Poliquin does) to simply describe amount of years one has been training. If you were not sure what I was referring to, all you had to do is say,"What exactly do you mean by this?" Very easy...very simple.
> 
> And in my eyes this is NOT a debate at all. You see, what YOU will do is refer me to bunch of "scientific" studies by Siff, or a bunch of Eatern Bloc phenomenons and I will not give a sh%t. MY scientific studies, done over the past 15 years has already proven to me time and again what works, so there is nothing you can say to prove me otherwise. Results do not lie...and when they happen in the "first person" and with everyone you have had the pleasure to train you pretty much become sure of what you are doing.
> ...



Its interesting you are concluding im the insecure one, when you are so caught up on your 'ways' you are blantly scared to argue the point, for fear you would be proven wrong.

Like i said, the term you used is irrelavent and does not have any meaning for the way you used it. If an athlete has been training for 4years, his training age is 4 which is correct, now please explain to me how you can conclude from this information what he is ready for and what he is not ready for, especially when training age does not reffer to fitness state.

Who said anything about studies? Are you so scared that you cannot have this debate for fear of getting proven wrong? 

Its funny how you say "I feel" "I think" i dont say anything i cant back up, and from what i've read your all mouth and lack the education to prove anything. 

Your very sad for the fact you wont take critisim or you wont take your methods questions so you feel the need to attack on a personal level, which isnt very professional.

I also dont think you can argue this topic because you dont have an understanding of it to do it. 


Kc


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## gopro (Feb 2, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> Its interesting you are concluding im the insecure one, when you are so caught up on your 'ways' you are blantly scared to argue the point, for fear you would be proven wrong.
> 
> Like i said, the term you used is irrelavent and does not have any meaning for the way you used it. If an athlete has been training for 4years, his training age is 4 which is correct, now please explain to me how you can conclude from this information what he is ready for and what he is not ready for, especially when training age does not reffer to fitness state.
> ...



Do you hear yourself? I have not attacked you personally at all. I even told you to go ahead and list your methods all you want...have fun, I don't care. YOU are the one that stormed onto the site and said that YOU were going to present the training methodology that would change the industry and was so much better than anything out there. 

Now, let me retract any "I thinks" and "I feels" and make them I KNOW. Is that better for you. I don't think or feel my training methodologies work...I KNOW THEY DO. I have gained over 130 lbs of drug free muscle myself and have a ridiculosly long list of clientele that I have transformed. THAT is real, THAT is tangible, and THAT is truth. 

Will I step up and say like you "My methods are superior to all others, blah, blah!" No, because there are many many amazing trainers out there that also have their own ways to get good results. There is NO WAY to know who's method is the best and there never will be. As long as what you do works for you and EVERYONE you train, and does more for them than anything else ever has, then you can bet your ass you are good at what you do.


You can criticize me all you want. Go ahead big guy, take your shot! But you CANNOT criticize my methods for one simple reason because they WORK and WORK DAMN WELL. 

And don't give me the crap about being afraid to debate you. I have debated loud mouths like you many times and it is a waste of breath my friend. Go ahead and write down all of your ideas...so far I have not seen anything I haven't before. I promise to pop in and out when I see fit and we can debate when necessary. Also, you can see how many people use your ideas and you can get feedback on them. Its the results that count, not the words or fancy terminology.


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## FortifiedIron (Feb 2, 2004)

Gopro,
Once again, your missing the whole point. Maybe if you would have read a bit better you would have read that i said "Gopro's workouts more then likely..work.. yadda yadda yadda, but are they actually making the lifter get the best gains possible?" 

Maybe that didnt get into your thick head now did it? I dont see where your arguing and i dont see how you can come off saying that im going to change the industry? Im not, i've done addressed that point too. I said "Id change the way many bodybuilders train" Again, your have a bad problem understanding word usage.

Again, your also missing the point of the results. The results that have been compiled and the studies and coaches who have used this particular method of organizing their training FAR surpasses what you'll ever do. WOW i think i've addressed this topic too!


Kc


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## ponyboy (Feb 2, 2004)

FI, by now you must realize that it simply looks like you are here to have a pissing contest with GoPro and whomever else puts in their two cents.  Whatever your reasons may be, if it makes you feel better about yourself to win an argument on an internet chat board, go right ahead.  Yay, you're right - your methods are the best and I'm sure you will help many many people and have so in the past.  

Do you take this type of approach with your clients and others that you interact with?  Because if you do you have something to learn about human relations.  I wish you the best of luck with that.


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## Arnold (Feb 2, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by ponyboy *_
> FI, by now you must realize that it simply looks like you are here to have a pissing contest with GoPro and whomever else puts in their two cents.



yes he is, I eluded to this ealier on in this thread...


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## ponyboy (Feb 2, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> yes he is, I eluded to this ealier on in this thread...



Dammit Prince, you always get to these things first.


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## FortifiedIron (Feb 2, 2004)

There is a point to this. Im sorry i dont come here and worship GoPro like everyone is ment to do here i guess. 

GoPro is simply avoiding things and does not seem to understand the very benefical and factial point science has. He like others get very personal about things when one questions what they do. If he wished to questions what i say or do, hey thats fine.. i'll back it up. Like i said, what i say and do i can back up, he on the other hand cant. The only thing he can say is "My clients benefited from it" again, he is missing the big picture. Im simply asking him "How do you know your clients are getting the optimal results to their potential?"

I have yet to see any of his programs periodized, or explain why you do this and that.


Kc


Kc


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## Arnold (Feb 2, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by FortifiedIron *_
> Im sorry i dont come here and worship GoPro like everyone is ment to do here i guess.



Please grow up already.


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## FortifiedIron (Feb 2, 2004)

Grow up from stating facts or what?


Kc


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## CowPimp (Feb 2, 2004)

Can someone please just lock this thread and end the madness?  Any useful information on the topic at hand has already been discussed.  No longer is any of this information useful.


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## Arnold (Feb 2, 2004)

agreed.


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