# METHYL 4-AD (MAD!) Who Wants Some!



## gopro (Dec 18, 2003)

Ok, the next "big thing" in prohormones is about to smash face first onto the market...a methylated version of the highly effective 4-ADiol molecule. First we had methyl 1-Test, and now MAD or METHYL 4-AD! Personally I think this may end up being the strongest product ever to hit the market, but time and feedback will tell.

So, here's the deal fellow IMers...I have talked the "boss" into giving me 15 bottles of 240 cc MAD, enough for 6 weeks (at 6 cc per day which = 250 mg), to offer exclusivley to you on a first come, first serve basis! Now, wholesale, this product will probably go for about $99.95 per bottle, but the first 15 to contact me by PM will be locked in for just $75 per bottle!!

All I ask is for tons of feedback. I will start a thread here specifically where you can tell me like it is...how it works, how it tastes, any sides, etc.

There you have it! Let me know


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## x_muscle (Dec 18, 2003)

im not trying to flame or anything. i think VPX has many good products but this one.......i dont know. 

IMO Methyl 4-ad will have more sides than the gains will be worth. hair losing bloated fish. and it converts to methyl-test
 Ask any ASS  that has used methyle-test. Its terrible. M1T is a much better option. Methyl 4AD could be the first prohormone that could cause the first documented case of gyno since it converts to a stonger form of estrogen. Methyl 4-AD must go through a conversion to Methyl-Test which is less potent than M1T. so with all these sides why should some one use it with M1T is avilable!!


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## gopro (Dec 18, 2003)

It won't convert to methyl test, it will convert to test at a very high rate. Methyl test is a crappy steroid with few applications, this will be a big time muscle builder.


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## flexster (Dec 19, 2003)

Gopro, I have not done a cycle of any prohormone yet. Should I try this stuff for a first cycle or not?


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## J'Bo (Dec 19, 2003)

What about females?


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## ZECH (Dec 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by x_muscle *_
> im not trying to flame or anything. i think VPX has many good products but this one.......i dont know.
> 
> IMO Methyl 4-ad will have more sides than the gains will be worth. hair losing bloated fish. and it converts to methyl-test
> Ask any ASS  that has used methyle-test. Its terrible. M1T is a much better option. Methyl 4AD could be the first prohormone that could cause the first documented case of gyno since it converts to a stonger form of estrogen. Methyl 4-AD must go through a conversion to Methyl-Test which is less potent than M1T. so with all these sides why should some one use it with M1T is avilable!!


I've heard all this and read all these claims and I'm no scientist. Weather or not it will convert to methyl test, I'm not arguing. LG has had M 4/ad a while now in their 4/ad+. They put a small amount in it to counter sides, but still get some effects from it. Personally I think it may be the best to come out. But then again I think one would need to be careful at first to see what sides you will get from a certain dosage. I'm wanting to try it!


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## Rocco32 (Dec 19, 2003)

When do we have to pay? I'd do it if it's after Christmas!


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## Twin Peak (Dec 19, 2003)

Why on earth would this be more potent than M1T?

Do tell.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 19, 2003)

This is 4-ad and M1T is 1-test. Is that right? Two different things?


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## Twin Peak (Dec 19, 2003)

M1T is 1-test, methylated, which by all accounts, turns this into a completely different compound.

This would be 4-ad, methylated.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 19, 2003)

BTW, I am personally waiting to see some methylated boldione (1, 4 AD).


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## XtremeFormula (Dec 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> BTW, I am personally waiting to see some methylated boldione (1, 4 AD).




yup, Id love to try that out as well


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## XtremeFormula (Dec 19, 2003)

the one Kneller is working up sounds amazing as well


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## prolangtum (Dec 19, 2003)

Is it 15 or 20 bottles "The One"?

Posted at VPX board:

VPX is ready to launch its newest prohormonal innovation...M.A.D.!! This stands for methyl 4-AD and this is some really potent shiat!! When it hits the shelves it will probably wholesale for about $100, but I have a special offer for my fellow ironfreaks in this house!

Here's the deal...we have pre-made about twenty 240 cc bottles of MAD. A bottle will last 40 days at the recommended dose of 6 cc per day, or 250 mg. On a first come, first serve basis I am offering you the opportunity to lock in a price of $75 on one of these pre made bottles. All you have to do is send me a PM and I will get you in on this deal and tell you the number and extension to call!

I'm sure these mofos will go fast, so let THE ONE know quickly!

Peace and growth



"I can only show you the door. You are the one that must walk through it..."


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## Twin Peak (Dec 19, 2003)

Its nice that they are offering IMers almost as much as they are offering their own board members.


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## prolangtum (Dec 19, 2003)

He is offering 25 to BB.com members, So thats what, 55 total?


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## gopro (Dec 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> He is offering 25 to BB.com members, So thats what, 55 total?



I am spreading out the bottles as I see fit, based on several factors. I made the offer FIRST to IMers last night.


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## gopro (Dec 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Why on earth would this be more potent than M1T?
> 
> Do tell.



Just a theory...my own (based mostly on speaking with the author of one of the hottest steroid books out currently). But like I said, time and feedback will tell TP.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> I am spreading out the bottles as I see fit, based on several factors. I made the offer FIRST to IMers last night.


 Thanks Gopro!


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## gopro (Dec 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by flexster *_
> Gopro, I have not done a cycle of any prohormone yet. Should I try this stuff for a first cycle or not?



No, not as a first. I'd go with something along the lines of Syngex I or just 1-Test PCE for a first cycle.


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## gopro (Dec 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by J'Bo *_
> What about females?


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## gopro (Dec 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by rock4832 *_
> Thanks Gopro!


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## ZECH (Dec 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> BTW, I am personally waiting to see some methylated boldione (1, 4 AD).


I think Sledgehammer may already have this!
He also has a Methyl 5aa which I am considering using when taking methyl 4/ad to combat the estrogen. That should be an explosive combo!


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## gopro (Dec 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> Is it 15 or 20 bottles "The One"?
> 
> Posted at VPX board:
> ...



By the way...this whole "stalking" thing is quite flattering I must say...


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## ZECH (Dec 19, 2003)

You are being watched!!!


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## gopro (Dec 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> You are being watched!!!



Yeah, by a moron.


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## Power Rabbit (Dec 19, 2003)

hmm i already bought my first stack to start in Jan(1-t oral, 4ad transdermal) but im definately smelling my second stack in the form of m1-t and mad... is vpx gonna make MAD transdermal?? I know they dont make too many(if any) transdermal but thought i should ask(fan of burning skin  )


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## Arnold (Dec 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> By the way...this whole "stalking" thing is quite flattering I must say...



and scary...why do these people follow you around?

maybe it's Maki!


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## gopro (Dec 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> and scary...why do these people follow you around?
> 
> maybe it's Maki!



LOL...no, this one is not  Maki...just another fan I guess, LOL!


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## gopro (Dec 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Power Rabbit *_
> hmm i already bought my first stack to start in Jan(1-t oral, 4ad transdermal) but im definately smelling my second stack in the form of m1-t and mad... is vpx gonna make MAD transdermal?? I know they dont make too many(if any) transdermal but thought i should ask(fan of burning skin  )



No reason to make methylated PHs transdermal...they are already chemically altered to make it intact through first pass.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 19, 2003)

What a jackass you are prolangtum! Why don't you learn some courtesy and manners before coming into another person's thread and acting like an asshole! Are you so insecure about yourself that you follow other people around and sign up on forums just to prove you are FOS? (Full of Shit). Go home man!


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 19, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> hardly a fan. I just think its funny how you have spewed so much BS and been called out on it, and it doesnt seem to bother you (think Forcedrep.com, Bobo and Chemo ripping you a new one) and you have been tagged elsewhere as FOS (fountain of shit). And please, tell me your little theory on how it will be better than M 1T, I cant wait.



Dude, I don't know you from friggin Adam so I got no personal issues with you, but sifu pulled a chicken shit stunt bringing his lackies over to FR just to talk shiat and then leave.  Kinda like you are doing here.  If you got issues with GP, keep them on your board and stay the hell out of here...deal?


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## nacnac972 (Dec 20, 2003)

blah blah blah tell somebody who cares


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## JerseyDevil (Dec 20, 2003)

So it's Eric's fault that a kid PMed you? He didn't say VPX's M1-t is _easy_ on the liver, but _easier_ then other brands.  Big difference.  I see plenty on the AM board that would entice a teenager to try prohormones and prosteroids like m1-t, so don't go there.

Fact is, GoPro is a friend and well respected member here whether you like it or not.  How would you react if one of us went over to AM and dogged Chemo or Bobo? Wouldn't be cool now would it?  As far as working for VPX, well that is his job to promote their products.  Can't blame a brother for making a living, you know what I'm saying?


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## jmr1979 (Dec 20, 2003)

as i do respect gopro and i don't know this prolangtum it still is good to hear conflicting opinions if done respectful manner.


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## ZECH (Dec 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> M 4-ad is going to be a horrible product. Why dont you ask Pat Arnold or Bruce Kneller what they think about it.  Vida tables state quite the opposite, and it will be very estrogenic.


You know just as good as I do that other products look good or bad on paper and do not perform the way it was expected. That is the reason for beta testing. Give it a chance to get tested, get feedback and then discuss it. Until then, no one knows without a doubt what it will do!


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## nacnac972 (Dec 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> No, not as a first. I'd go with something along the lines of Syngex I or just 1-Test PCE for a first cycle.



So prolangtum he telling this guy not to do M-4ad as his first cycle but hes going to tell a child is ok for him?


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## nacnac972 (Dec 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Personally I think this may end up being the strongest product ever to hit the market, but time and feedback will tell.
> 
> Personally I think!Isnt that an opinion?


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## nacnac972 (Dec 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Chemo *_
> No...VPX's methyl-1-test is NOT EASIER on the liver than any other methylated product.
> 
> How would I feel if someone came to AM and attempted to "dog" me or my fellow ADMIN?  If we were spouting BS and they came to call us on it then we must defend our views / statements accordingly.  If I can't defend my views with intelligent debate then it should not have been posted...same with Gopro.
> ...


I Agree I would love to hear what he has to say.I just dont like the part about people accusing other people of telling kids these products are ok.That what gets me heated.When I first heard about this product I thought huge sides from the estrogen it would produce but I do not know enough to make that call.So lets here the information you have chemo.


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 20, 2003)

Well I'm sure he's coming on the behalf of someone with no sack.

Hey, run and get booboo and sifu and make it a party.   rediculaous.  Nice the have "Our Ladies of Perpetual Liver Health" joining us.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 20, 2003)

It's fine to have questions and challenge something you don't believe. But the WAY you come in here is what is wrong. Acting like a complete jackass to someone we do like and support.

Come, ask you questions in civilized manner. Whatever happens on other post board I couldn't give a crap. This is our site, show some respect to us when you are visiting! You talk to Gopro like that here, your insulting most of us who are friends and support Gopro. No reason for that!


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## Dante B. (Dec 20, 2003)

As Chemo knows, I'm not one of his personal fans.

But that aside, so long as everyone concentrates on the topic at hand, then all of this is good.

Statements were made, and they have to be backed up, at least with evidence/theory. Just keep the personal shit out of it.


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## ZECH (Dec 20, 2003)

Chemo, welcome to IM. Good to see you here!


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## ZECH (Dec 20, 2003)

I'm guessing the thread on M 4/ad @ bb.com got deleted?


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 20, 2003)

Prolly a good guess


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## bigswole30 (Dec 20, 2003)

VPX is hated on again, What a surprise?????? If you all only knew.


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## bigswole30 (Dec 20, 2003)

What is HD Mag???????


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## bigswole30 (Dec 21, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> oops, I mean Human Muscle Performance, the new one with Tony Freeman on the cover.



Gotcha.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 21, 2003)

To be clear, I did not invite Prolangtum here (or Chemo for that matter, as I don't even know him -- though I know of him), but rather, when I saw this thread, I linked to it at Avant to get feedback from the many who are well versed in steroidology, chemical structures, etc.

Some of the statements made here, did not seem right to me, so I linked to it, to get more feedback.

BTW, this is something I do from time to time, as I see no issues with linking other boards on our board.  If nothing else, cross polination of boards is only a good thing as far as learning and knowledge are concerned.  If you counted, you'd be suprised how many members here are a result of me talking about IM (including a moderator) elsewhere.

Back to the topic, I can only assume that Pro has had previous dealings with Eric on various other boards mentioned (none of which I am a member on) and then jumped in here with fire and brimstone and providing no background to the members.

Obviously, he could have had more tact and less aggression, but knowing Pro for sometime, he is (normally) not hot-headed and a good guy.

And for those of you who think members coming from other boards is a bad thing, this thread has the potential of providing more information to IM members (on the topic of what is potentially the most dangerous "supplements" on the market) because of it.

Carry on.


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## JerseyDevil (Dec 21, 2003)

Welcome to IM Prolantum!  I've been reading your posts and in just a short period of time you have already provided significant input.


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## Rocco32 (Dec 21, 2003)

Prolang, I'm glad your here and have learned some from you in the other posts. Again I just didn't like how you came in this thread and I have no idea your dealings with GP on other forums, but in this forum he is my friend and I don't like people bashing him. Seemed more personal than informational.

That aside, I know you've apologized for that so welcome to IM. Glad to have you here!


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## Power Rabbit (Dec 21, 2003)

love is the answer...allways been a lover not a fighter


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## firestorm (Dec 21, 2003)

wheew,, is it over?  anyway GP did you get your quota?  If not, I'd be willing to give it a try after the holidays.  I'm out of 1T so if this stuff is 3/4 of what is expected then I'd be happy to give it a whirl.


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## prolangtum (Dec 21, 2003)

I would also like to know if any in house trials have been done, if not, selling a beta is not only cheap of VPX, it is unsafe. Anyone who tries this, I suggest you have nolvadex on hand.


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## firestorm (Dec 21, 2003)

Cheap of VPX? You think VPx is the only company to do this?  NAAAA  Not hardley.   Pro have you ever used steroids?  Here your busting on a drug that simulates a steroid. That is what most people want at least me.  I want legal supplements as close to a steroids as possible. If nolvadex is required then this stuff is real.   So thanks for the advise I'll be sure to get some nolvadex.


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## 1Fast400 (Dec 22, 2003)

Bigswole, call people haters of VPX, some good questions were put forth and nobody answered them.  If a VPX rep would answer them, maybe they wouldn't have to deal with all this.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> Cheap of VPX? You think VPx is the only company to do this?  NAAAA  Not hardley.   Pro have you ever used steroids?  Here your busting on a drug that simulates a steroid. That is what most people want at least me.  I want legal supplements as close to a steroids as possible. If nolvadex is required then this stuff is real.   So thanks for the advise I'll be sure to get some nolvadex.



Fire, Pro is actually a rather experienced AAS user.  His concerns re nolvadex is due (I believe) to the comments he posted by Pat Arnold regarding this compound and the concerns that it will be highly estrogenic, and not (relatively) very anabolic.


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## bigswole30 (Dec 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by 1Fast400 *_
> Bigswole, call people haters of VPX, some good questions were put forth and nobody answered them.  If a VPX rep would answer them, maybe they wouldn't have to deal with all this.



I happended to be at the VPX offices the other day and everything was top knotch. The National sales manager had just given blood for testing on a upcoming product. As for the MAD I know a well-known steroid guru thinks it will be a great product.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 22, 2003)

Who?  And what were his/her exact words?


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## bigswole30 (Dec 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Who?  And what were his/her exact words?



It is not my right to disclose who VPX may consult with on their products.


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

I hope you not refering to Author L. Rea. He stills classifies steroids in classes I + II. He doesnt even know what a SERM is. They basically tore his book apart at CEM. 

I pmd Big Cat over at CEM, here are his thoughts:
"Ok, comments, I'd like to see some evidence that it will not convert to methyltest. I see two options with this. From what we know it should convert to methyltest, 17AA steroids are different molecules than their alklyl free counterparts, because the methyl group CANNOT be metabolized. But I do see another option however. The 17AA may interfere with conversion (although I doubt it) and logically, if it does not convert, then there is no methyltest. But then by that same stretch of logic, methyl4AD wouldn't be worth a whole lot would it now ? Either way, the methyl cannot be metabolized. 

I'm assuming with liposomal they mean that they are aiming for lymphatic absorption. That's the only way oral ingestion can bypass first pass. Well, I'd like to see him try. You need an extremely lipophillic substance to remain lodged in fat as it is absorbed lymphatically. Something like a decanoate or undecanoate ester at the very least. Well, ever heard of an esterified 17AA steroid ? Its simply not possible. Secondly, we all know the score with lymphatic compounds, even test undecanoate is only shadow of its injected counterpart. Obviously even then only a small amount is absorbed lymphatically, and the rest would go through your liver anyway.

And lastly, WHAT THE HELL is the point of a methyl group if the stuff won't pass the liver ? 17AA only makes a drug more orally active if it passes the liver.

These are just comments on the 5 lines of text you gave me, doesn't take a leap of faith to suggest this dude is full of it.

Peter"


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

Oh and Firestorm,
I believe I have damn near tried every steroid known to man. If I havent taken it, I know someone who has first hand. I had a friend who was a local powerlifter, getting ready for a national meet in Dallas, and got a nice case of gyno from MethylTest and Halo. Obviously, since Halo cannot aromatize, it can be blamed on the Methyltest. He was taking 40mgs/40mgs halo/methyl test ed, 4 weeks prior to the contest, he developed gyno week 3. Gyno is not flattering in a tight powerlifting suit, I will tell you that.


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## 1Fast400 (Dec 22, 2003)

Here is a picture


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## tomas101 (Dec 22, 2003)

damn has gropro gotten his card pulled?


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## Power Rabbit (Dec 22, 2003)

Heh science stuff is cool an all...but all the chemistry aside...it seems like a better plan to sit back wait for the guys who got some to do a cycle and post about thier results.............Im not a smart guy...but I usually can get a good idea of something with a good pre/post picture, and some weight results....Useing science stuff to say why something will/wont work is like having a general contractor, who never has tools in his hands, try to tell you how to do your work... The GC might know alot of stuff and been in the game for years, but may be missing some info just because he isnt in the ceiling seeing what you are seeing.


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

EDIT FOR NOW


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## Dante B. (Dec 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> Straight from Vida pg 80:
> This was the first compound (Methylandrostenediol, methandriol, A-5) used as an orally active anabolic agent with little androgenic activity.  However, it was found later that the anabolic potency is also weaker than that of methlytestosterone."



Methandriol is methyl-5AD, not M4AD.



> but all the chemistry aside...it seems like a better plan to sit back wait for the guys who got some to do a cycle and post about thier results.............Im not a smart guy...but I usually can get a good idea of something with a good pre/post picture, and some weight results....Useing science stuff to say why something will/wont work is like having a general contractor, who never has tools in his hands, try to tell you how to do your work... The GC might know alot of stuff and been in the game for years, but may be missing some info just because he isnt in the ceiling seeing what you are seeing.



That's fine and dandy, in those cases where too many specific details aren't known, or aren't fully understood.

Common sense, however, applies when you have enough details and relevant comparisons to make an accurate assumption---at least in terms of whether or not a claim will hold true. I'm sure M4AD "works," the context being---does it work as claimed, and are the purported positive and negative effects being over or understated.

A measure of scientific knowledge goes a long way when you have an ounce of common sense; it also goes along way when assessing the verity of a claim, or the relevance of the feedback (confounding factors, placebo, etc). Now, with all of this said, everyone can proceed to argue within those contexts.

And Bigswole: Please.


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

shit, Loki looked up the wrong compound, soon to edit that


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

Ok, so Loki looked and looked, M 4ad is not in Vida text. But, M 4ad will convert to methyltest. Lets say it converts at a 60% rate (which is quite generous) So with 20mgs of M 4ad, we get 12mg of Methyltest. From Vida we know that M 1T is 910% more anabolic that Methytest. So how one would say that M 4ad is more powerful than M 1T is just laughable. Not to mention when it does aromatize it converts to 17-methyl-estradiol, which is much more potent than estrodial. So at an effective dose (40-50mgs of M 4ad), you will gain lots of water, and be very susceptible to gyno. No bueno IMO


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## ILokiI (Dec 22, 2003)

Yeah, apologies on that; my Bible let me down... 

Irregardless, anyone championing 17aa-4-AD is essentially contending that a prohormone (17alpha-methyl-4-androstene-3-one, 17b-ol) to pure methyltestosterone (whose conversion rate we can speculate to at best, but is likely around 40% or so), is going to be more anabolic (and thus more effective) than 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androst-1-en-3-one which _doesn't have to convert_, and whose levator ani assays completely bitch-slap methyltestosterone's, which is the substance you're hoping your Methyl-4-AD will eventually _metabolize into_.

Also, for those who aren't clear, the way M-4AD is structured means it doesn't really aromatize much _per se_. The problem is that when it _does aromatize_, it converts to 17-methyl-estradiol, which is like the "Methyl-1-Test" of estrogen (i.e. potent as fuck).  In other words, you're basically looking at a compound that's going to give the following:

1. Tons of cellular hydration (which is good)
2. Tons of bloat (which is bad)
3. An incredibly high risk of gyno (which is just _UGLY_)
4. Almost no actual LBM gains because 80-90% of the scale-weight you pick up on your cycle is going to just be H20 (which SUCKS)

If everyone is really looking for another Methylated compound to bulk on 17aa-1,4-ADDiol would be better. If you could make a dione, I think it'd be tight, but the problem is 17aa-1,4-ADDione isn't chemically stable.  At least with the 17aa-1,4 we a prohormone to methyl-boldenone, which is technically two chemical steps from DBol, so we actually get conversion into a _half-decent compound_.  With M-4-AD, you're getting shit.  I wouldn't even consider M-4-AD to be on par with straight up 4-androstenediol...

Bottom line: 17aa-1-Test is 'niceness,' M-1,4-ADD is decent (although far from ideal), and M-4-AD is just scary-- use it at your own risk...


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## Power Rabbit (Dec 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Dante B. *_
> Methandriol is methyl-5AD, not M4AD.
> 
> 
> ...





Yea bro, you do have a point. I guess you can tell whether it will aromitize etc. Plus there is alot of background data with similar substances to help make a good idea of whats gonna happen. 

I do definately respect ya as a guy that knows a great deal more than me on the subject, and as a guy who could make a good commen sense guess as to whats happening.(though im trying my damnedest to learn more each day)

But ur wrong on one thing ....it aint like i dont have common sense..I may be a big fan of judgeing things by results.(The ol see it to believe it kinda guy) ...but I use my noodle alittle.. If general gains are small enough that they could be placebo then I wouldnt probably try it. But if someone gets 10-12 pounds, ill give it a shot.(At the very least, its one hell of a placebo!)


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## Dante B. (Dec 22, 2003)

I never meant to imply that you were without common sense, my friend 

Rather, you may not have been privy to certain details, that would have allowed you to utilize that common sense---in this specific situation.

I sincerely apologize if my post wasn't clear, in that regard.



The subject of anabolic substances is ridiculously complex, especially when we're speaking about humans, not rats; at least in terms of anabolic/androgenic ratios, and how that doesn't show you the entire picture.


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## gopro (Dec 22, 2003)

You guys can argue this out all that you want. As this product was being developed I was in on the discussions. The true formulator of the product is very pleased with what he has seen this stuff do...he tested it loooong before releasing it.

It comes down to this...4-AD itself has proven itself to be quite an effective prohormone. Why? B/c even in its unconverted state it has about 90-95% of the strength of pure testosterone. The conversion to actual test is not that high, but of course, what DOES convert is welcomed as test lends itself to big gains also ....hmmm, wonder why testosterone is still THE most popular steroid for size gains? Is there any aromatization from 4-AD...no. Is there some aromatization from what converts to test? Sure, but we all know that some estrogen lends itself to even bigger size gains!

So, what we have with MAD is a superpowerful 4-AD product. Much of the 4-AD will be left intact and therefore can influence some very nice gains. Then of course we have some conversion to methyl test. Ok, so M-test is not that great a steroid. At least it will offer you some great training sessions b/c of its ability to increase aggressiveness. I should also mention that the formulator believes there will be an interesting synergy between the methyl 4-AD and the methyl test in terms of building size. Anyway, that aside, we will of course see some aromatization of M-test into M-estrogen...fine. A small amount will occur, but how much? Enough to cause huge problems? Doubt it. Guys take 2000 mg per week of pure test and control it with Nolvadex. You can probably get away here with high doses of Aromadex or 6-OXO IF you see any estrogenic effects.

Like I said earlier, the formulator of this product used it on himself and test subjects before handing this over to VPX. HE found it produced awesome gains in size/strength especially when stacked with a more anabolic PH. Sounds like a testosterone/Deca stack to me.

You can speculate all you want but THE RESULTS will speak for themselves and soon we will know them. If it sucks it won't sell...oh well. But if it starts building bigger bodybuilders than VPX will have another winner on its hands and the copycats will jump aboard. I myself will be testing MAD starting this Saturday and I will report back my results here.

Why don't we all just sit back and wait and we will have answers rather than comments from every backseat scientist on the net.


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## Power Rabbit (Dec 22, 2003)

Heh tell me about it  if I studied for class as much as I research phoromones, gear and thier effects I wouldnt be getting my sh*tty gpa.


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## Power Rabbit (Dec 22, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> 
> I myself will be testing MAD starting this Saturday and I will report back my results here.




Cool  Cant wait to hear how it goes  GP


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## ILokiI (Dec 22, 2003)

> So, what we have with MAD is a superpowerful 4-AD product. Much of the 4-AD will be left intact and therefore can influence some very nice gains. Then of course we have some conversion to methyl test.



With all due respect, that's just patently wrong.  When you add that extra carbon to the compound at the 17a position, you don't just get "methyl" + original compound.  You get an entirely _new compound_.  There is _no_ 4-AD 'intact' because 17aa-4-AD is _not_ 4-AD.



> Ok, so M-test is not that great a steroid. At least it will offer you some great training sessions b/c of its ability to increase aggressiveness.



First off, I highly doubt it, since it's going to be several conversion steps before we even see 17-methyl-DHT, not to mention the fact that I could just take some E/C, or some NADH, or any slew of other compounds that will give me more energy and focus in the gym without the risk of prostate hypertrophy or hepatoxic sides or gyno or...   



> I should also mention that the formulator believes there will be an interesting synergy between the methyl 4-AD and the methyl test in terms of building size.



Eureka!!! you mean we can _stack_ steroids!!! Like, I could totally _add_ an aromatizing steroid to a non-aromatizing steroid for increased anabolism!?!? But wait, 'interesting?' sounds a tad subjective-if-not-outright-arbitrary to me.  I think the potential synergy between Pergolide mesylate and cocaine is pretty 'interesting'-- doesn't mean I'd want to use it for body-comp. though... 



> Anyway, that aside, we will of course see some aromatization of M-test into M-estrogen...fine. A small amount will occur, but how much?



Yes, a small amount of aromatization occurs, and all of it takes the form of conversion into 17-methyl-estradiol.  Hand grenades are 'small' too ya know...



> Guys take 2000 mg per week of pure test and control it with Nolvadex.



And that's because pure Test is _worth taking_ in the first place.  



> You can probably get away here with high doses of Aromadex or 6-OXO IF you see any estrogenic effects.




(no further comment; I wish you the best on your test run.)


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## gopro (Dec 22, 2003)

Thanks for your input buddy, but the guy that formulated this product is one of the most profound scientists in the steroid/supplement/research industry. His track record is ridiculously long and successful. Several top Olympia competitors work with him and continue to outgrow themselves each year.

Science is great, but each one of us INTERPRETS what we see differently and as well, what we see happen in the real world is not exactly what we saw on paper or in the lab.

Methyl Test may be a far far less effective version of pure test, buy methyl 4-AD is a far superior compound to regular 4-AD (which in and of itself is very potent in the world of PHs).

Thanks, I'm hoping to hit 240 this cycle.


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## prolangtum (Dec 22, 2003)

what do you not understand, 4-ad and M-4ad are two different compounds. No M 4-ad will convert to 4-ad. Nor will it convert into test. It converts into METHYL TEST. You have a severe misunderstanding of prohormones it seems.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 23, 2003)

Eric, I am confused, aren't you currently running VPX's liposomal M1T?


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## gopro (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> what do you not understand, 4-ad and M-4ad are two different compounds. No M 4-ad will convert to 4-ad. Nor will it convert into test. It converts into METHYL TEST. You have a severe misunderstanding of prohormones it seems.



No, what YOU fail to understand is that M-4-AD is a powerful compound that is quite a nice muscle builder. The little conversion it will have to M-T will not take much away from its growth promoting capabilities.

You have a severe misunderstanding of everything.


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## gopro (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Eric, I am confused, aren't you currently running VPX's liposomal M1T?



I ran it for two weeks and that is done. I reported the results in another thread. I WAS going to run it again starting Friday at a higher dose, but I need to test out the MAD. Although it can be argued up the wazoo whether it is effective or not, until some people try it and report results we will not be truly informed. So, I will do two weeks on MAD at 250 mg, take one week off and probably will then stack M 1-T and MAD for 2 weeks to see how they work together. After that, I'm not touching PHs for many many months.


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## ponyboy (Dec 23, 2003)

Don't you need more time between mini cycles so that you can see if it is the one substance or the two together producing any gains you may see?  I thought it took 3-4 weeks to see any sort of impact with any validity.  Knowing you, however, I can understand if you can track your body's reaction faster than most of us.  

But then again, I don't know anything.


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## ZECH (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ponyboy *_
> I thought it took 3-4 weeks to see any sort of impact with any validity.


Depending on the person, you can see results at different times. I have seen many cycles where a person on a 4-6 week cycle will see almost all his gains in the first two weeks and then have no further gains. The time off between cycles relates to the person's ability to maintain the gains. Although I think most would agree that starting a cycle only after a two week break, they would not likely have as good of results as the previous cycle.


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## gopro (Dec 23, 2003)

My body works best in spurts. I get the most out of PHs in the first 2-3 weeks. In fact, it is becoming more popular for steroid users to utilize "blitz cycles," rather than long 12-16 week cycles.


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## prolangtum (Dec 23, 2003)

How does M 4-ad convert into anything but Methyl Test? Magic?


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## gopro (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> How does M 4-ad convert into anything but Methyl Test? Magic?



MOST OF IT DOES NOT CONVERT AT ALL!!!!! GET IT. 

4-AD for example converts at a very low rate to actual test, but fortunately 4-AD is about 90% as effective as real test. Same case here, although M-4-AD is even more potent than regular 4-AD. Stop arguing already. If it works we will know soon, if it doesn't we will know soon. Have some patience and chill out already.


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## tomas101 (Dec 23, 2003)

lol


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## ILokiI (Dec 23, 2003)

> MOST OF IT DOES NOT CONVERT AT ALL!!!!! GET IT.



And do you have _any_ evidence _whatsoever_ to support this claim? because I have quite a bit to rebuke it...



> 4-AD for example converts at a very low rate to actual test, but fortunately 4-AD is about 90% as effective as real test.



If 4-androstene-3-beta,17-beta-diol converts to test at a little over 15%, then how is it 90% as effective as real Test? If you told that to any seasoned gear-user, I doubt he'd be able to hold a straight face.  Once again, do you have _any_ evidence to support this contention?

You can run a very effective Test cycle on less than 300mg a week.  With 4-AD, an experienced lifter would need 300mg _every single day_ just to see solid gains.  There seems to be a bit of a discrepancy here...




> Same case here, although M-4-AD is even more potent than regular 4-AD.



But anyone who knows anything about steroids knows that the 'potency' of 17alpha-methyl-4-androstene-3-one, 17b-ol has nothing to do with whether or not it's a good compound.  Methyl Tren is worlds more potent than anything out there, and I don't know a single person who'd be willing to use it even at mcg dosages.  What we'd like to see is essentially evidence that M-4-AD will provide solid gains, gains that are good enough to warrant the risks of its well-researched propensity for side effects.

Honestly, I'd love to know where I'm going wrong if I am.  All it would take is your 'expert' to come on here for 5 mins. (the length of a trip to the water-cooler) and assuage all our fears by providing some references and some research that shows that 17alpha-methyl-4-androstene-3-one, 17b-ol does what you contend it does without doing what I'm contending it will do.  As a company, you have a consumer base, and I hardly feel that it is 'above' your company to send in a knowledgeable rep. here who can clarify all these misnomers.  I would certainly hate to think that VPX thinks we should take all their ads, slogans, and catch-lines 'in faith' and never actually question what we're being sold or what it could potentially do to us...


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## gopro (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ILokiI *_
> And do you have _any_ evidence _whatsoever_ to support this claim? because I have quite a bit to rebuke it...
> 
> 
> ...



Oh Loki Loki Loki...your first mistake is trying to compare illegal anabolic substances to OTC products. Also, you are trying to compare a PROhormone to a target hormone.

Sure a cycle of 300 mg of INJECTABLE TEST would do more than oral 4-AD...but put that test in an oral undecanoate form, ala Andriol, and then we can make a better comparison.

Use 4-AD as an injectable and on a mg for mg basis you may have a somewhat better fight. Still, I'm sure that real test would come out the winner on total scale weight, but perhaps the 4-AD user would hold less water. The guys that have been injecting 4-AD cyp have been raving about results. Anyway, nuff said on that.

While I agree that M-test has tons of sides and produce little in the way of muscle, you do not know this about M-4AD. How much clinical research has been done on this compound? Alot of our best products have become successful only after bodybuilders began experimenting with it in the trenches. When methyl 1-test came out NOBODY had any real answers but simple speculation. Now that bodybuilders have been experimenting we see how effective it is.

The funny thing is how VPX is singled out when there are TONS of small companies that post on all the boards that put out products just as cutting edge, if not more so, than VPX and they remain well respected and unquestioned (that the downside of being top dog I guess).

Just as I am writing this there is a nurse here taking blood from a half dozen participants in this office alone regarding a new GH releasing product we are testing. This has been going on for months for this ONE particular product! Yes, VPX tests and retests and strives to only put out products that work. That is why they are # 1 and will be for a long time.

And you wouldn't know an expert if he were right under yur nose. You will ONLY take the word of someone that holds YOUR point of view and don't tell me any different. It was funny when Author was mentioned before as a non-guru, when the guy could run circles around all of you when it comes to this sh%t.

Lets just wait and see. If it doesn't work for me I can assure you that you will know!


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## prolangtum (Dec 23, 2003)

I consider guys like Pat Arnold and Big Cat experts, they contend it will only convert to methyl test, and that it is not a good compound. 

On the injecting 4-ad, I have used steroids quite extensively, and 4-ad cyp injectable at 1200mgs per week, seemed to me about like 400mgs of Test Eth or Cyp per week.


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 23, 2003)

Better yet, how 'bout you go to VPX and ask them.  Alright already.


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## prolangtum (Dec 23, 2003)

Well we do have two guys here who work for VPX, how about pasing along what their guru/chemist has to say? I would be more than happy if it is proved that it is indeed a great compound, Im all for legal steroids, or as close as we can get to steroids while still being legal for the time being.


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## bigswole30 (Dec 23, 2003)

In my opinion which is just that, an opinion, 4-ad's conversion to test sucks. Therefore we are looking a little to deep into this whole methyl-estradiol issue. m-4-ad converting to m-t at about 20% and then that converting to m-estradiol at about 20%= very little estrogenic effect. I know m-estradiol is more active than estrogen, but at such a small amount it will not be much more than high doses of oral 4-ad(900-1200mg).  I think the power in this product wil be from the 4-ad that does not convert.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 23, 2003)

Just out of curiousity, who took Eric up on his offer here, what will be your dosing protocol, and when will you start?


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## ILokiI (Dec 23, 2003)

> Oh Loki Loki Loki...your first mistake is trying to compare illegal anabolic substances to OTC products. Also, you are trying to compare a PROhormone to a target hormone.



And who first made this comparison? I seem to recall:  



> 4-AD for example converts at a very low rate to actual test, but fortunately 4-AD is about 90% as effective as real test. Same case here, although M-4-AD is even more potent than regular 4-AD.



(well, there were two right there...)





> The funny thing is how VPX is singled out when there are TONS of small companies that post on all the boards that put out products just as cutting edge, if not more so, than VPX and they remain well respected and unquestioned (that the downside of being top dog I guess).



Not true.  I've argued science against Lyle McDonald, Bill L, Nandi over at CEM, and even with one of the top researchers over at Avant.  This has far less to do with VPX and who you're affiliated with than the basic structure of the argument you're making.  You're basically asking people such as myself to blindly except lines like "this will be a potent mass-builder" when you yourself have finally come to admit that few if any actual trials have been conducted with it.  As a result, since we don't have any anecdotal evidence, I'm relying on science and the pharmacokinetics of the compounds we're discussing.  You're relying on "this will rock" and "no, your wrong" without any compelling basis for your contentions, which I find troublesome.  When I've disputed things in the past with some of the folks I've mentioned above, many will bring up studies or link points to other well-understood/recognized areas of human physiology and/or chemistry.  And-- while I've asked you to-- you haven't ponied up a thing other than "I'm not hardcore or knowledgeable to understand how it's 'really done,'" which I find rather worrisome...



> And you wouldn't know an expert if he were right under yur nose. You will ONLY take the word of someone that holds YOUR point of view and don't tell me any different.



And while I'll certainly be losing sleep over that one (even though you have absolutely _no idea_ who I am...), I actually find myself to be rather flexible when it comes to arguments of this sort.  As people like Twin Peak or Prolangturn can tell you, I'm very quick to concede I'm wrong when I find an opposing view-point to be well-articulated and credibly backed up.  

Anyways, don't fret, run your trial; I won't be replying to this thread any more.  I mostly just want to help people out there make educated decisions about what they choose to put in their bodies, especially when the sources that they're getting it from seem far more concerned with sales figures than actually presenting a good formal basis for why and how said products should be used and employed.  Cheers.


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## prolangtum (Dec 23, 2003)

How about this. Eric, BigSwole, whoever. Send either me, TP, or Loki a bottle to test. If neither of us get gyno and get good results, I will pay for it. I myself would rather test it, but I will pay for it if it is sent to TP or Loki, after the test. This is not trying to get a freebie, and I will reimburse, my word is my reputation.


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## bigswole30 (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> How about this. Eric, BigSwole, whoever. Send either me, TP, or Loki a bottle to test. If neither of us get gyno and get good results, I will pay for it. I myself would rather test it, but I will pay for it if it is sent to TP or Loki, after the test. This is not trying to get a freebie, and I will reimburse, my word is my reputation.



I would be more than happy to if I was able to. However, I am not living in Florida yet or do I have the authority to do so.


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## gopro (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Just out of curiousity, who took Eric up on his offer here, what will be your dosing protocol, and when will you start?



Only a few took me up here but I have about 30 or so people across a few boards. I am encouraging people to use 6 cc per day or 250 mg similarly to M 1-T...2 weeks on, 2 off. Of course, I'm sure some people will "play" with that amount. I will report all feedback here as well at other boards I mod/admin.


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## 1Fast400 (Dec 23, 2003)

Who is this great formulator that is one of the best in the prohormone industry.  Surely someone of his/her stature should be known.


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## x_muscle (Dec 23, 2003)

is vpx going to sell methyl creatine soon????




















just kidding


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## prolangtum (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Only a few took me up here but I have about 30 or so people across a few boards. I am encouraging people to use 6 cc per day or 250 mg similarly to M 1-T...2 weeks on, 2 off. Of course, I'm sure some people will "play" with that amount. I will report all feedback here as well at other boards I mod/admin.


My offer stands, I will pay after the fact, regardless of gyno or bad sides.


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## prolangtum (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by x_muscle *_
> is vpx going to sell methyl creatine soon????


Osmo has a product called methyl creatine, although its not methylated.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> How about this. Eric, BigSwole, whoever. Send either me, TP, or Loki a bottle to test. If neither of us get gyno and get good results, I will pay for it. I myself would rather test it, but I will pay for it if it is sent to TP or Loki, after the test. This is not trying to get a freebie, and I will reimburse, my word is my reputation.



I like my M1T, I am not interested in this, personally.  I am still interested in an M Boldione.


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## x_muscle (Dec 23, 2003)

if you are welling to take all risks of sides. i advice you to try methyl 5aa i converts to DHT which is more anbolic than test and its way much cheaper than m4ad


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## prolangtum (Dec 23, 2003)

actually, Designer labs sent me some M 5aa to test out, should be here today


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Just out of curiousity, who took Eric up on his offer here, what will be your dosing protocol, and when will you start?



TP, I decided to take Eric up on his offer.  As you may or may not know, I've done more than my share of AS so this should be interesting.  Some that have had some bigtime sides(estrogen, etc.)  So I will be able to tell if this stuff gives off strogenic sides or if everyone here is a bunch of over paranoid scientific pansies.  I've been clean for nearly two years now so there will be no question of whether it is working or not.  As for when I plan to start, probably after the begining of the year.  Not sure of the dosage yet.  You are asking me to think too far in advance. lol

On a side note.  You guess can continue to have this pissing contest until the damn cows come home.  I could care less.  The need to be right has proven quite pathetic.  Just agree to disagree and STFU.   Have a nice day.


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## gopro (Dec 23, 2003)

Frankly Loki, I don't care who you are and although you spit out alot of intelligent words you also put words in my mouth, but that is ok. I will admit that although my knowledge about steroids and prohomrone chemistry is better than most, it is far less than my technical knowledge about training and nutrition, where the better part of my life has been focused. That said, I still believe that "science" and "scientific" data in these areas are only marginally helpful at best b/c it is up to the scientist to interpret the data...problem is, you put the same data in front of 10 different experts and you often get 10 different opinions. What it truly comes down to is what works in the real world and THAT is where I put the most importance. Look at glutamine...people love to quote studies about how this stuff is worthless, but the feedback continues to pour in from thousands upon thousands of users, telling of how much it does for them. Anyway, I grow more lethargic from this conversation than a good dose of M 1-T plus Xanax, so I hope its done. I will know soon how well MAD works or doesn't work.


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## gopro (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by 1Fast400 *_
> Who is this great formulator that is one of the best in the prohormone industry.  Surely someone of his/her stature should be known.



He IS known...very well known. In fact he was strolling around the Olympia Expo where I first met him in person. However, I am not able to publicly say who made this product for VPX.


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## gopro (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> My offer stands, I will pay after the fact, regardless of gyno or bad sides.



thanks but no thanks...couldn't even do it if I wanted to anyway


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## gopro (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by x_muscle *_
> if you are welling to take all risks of sides. i advice you to try methyl 5aa i converts to DHT which is more anbolic than test and its way much cheaper than m4ad



Not many applications for 5aa though. Good for hardness, that is about it.


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## Twin Peak (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by BUSTINOUT *_
> TP, I decided to take Eric up on his offer.  As you may or may not know, I've done more than my share of AS so this should be interesting.  Some that have had some bigtime sides(estrogen, etc.)  So I will be able to tell if this stuff gives off strogenic sides or if everyone here is a bunch of over paranoid scientific pansies.  I've been clean for nearly two years now so there will be no question of whether it is working or not.  As for when I plan to start, probably after the begining of the year.  Not sure of the dosage yet.  You are asking me to think too far in advance. lol
> 
> On a side note.  You guess can continue to have this pissing contest until the damn cows come home.  I could care less.  The need to be right has proven quite pathetic.  Just agree to disagree and STFU.   Have a nice day.



This is good news, BO, I would love to see your feedback; I hope you keep a journal here.


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## BUSTINOUT (Dec 23, 2003)

I'll do my best TP.  As many here can attest to...I'm a lazy ass when it comes to journals.  But if it will be hlpful to others, I'll do my best in keeping it current.


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## ZECH (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> I like my M1T, I am not interested in this, personally.  I am still interested in an M Boldione.


This would be very estrogenic also..............correct?
It converts basically to dbol and is right next to estradiol.


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## ZECH (Dec 23, 2003)

http://legalgear.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43


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## ILokiI (Dec 23, 2003)

Cool.  We've got testers, so now only time will tell.  I personally wouldn't be interested in testing this, but I believe Pro would.  Obviously however, if this cannot be done, then it's a moot point.



> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> This would be very estrogenic also..............correct?
> It converts basically to dbol and is right next to estradiol.



Yeah, like I said earlier, if we could get 17aa-1,4-ADDione that was stable, we wouldn't have this problem and we'd likely see a great PS.  17aa-1,4ADDiol isn't really that bad however, and it's got some nice aspects to it.  Basically, the way it's structured, when this Boldiol is ingested, it doesn't really 'get' the methylation until it starts converting to estradiol.  For example, if you start with boldenone (the steroid EQ), it converts to estradiol on a small scale (hence the lean gains) which is then metabolized rather quickly (although it's still a potent estrogen-- luckily, with regular 1,4, we get very little, so it's not a big deal, which is why people use Boldione for bulking _and_ cutting...). 

But with this form of 1,4-ADD, we get a much more potent estrogen formation a la Dbol (which is essentially methyl-boldenone, which means methyl-1,4ADD is a prohormone to methyl-boldenone, so it's technically two chemical steps from DBol, which is technically the target hormone some of it will eventually get to). Now, once we start getting Dbol (and we do since the 17-alpha-alkalization renders the 1,4ADD fairly bioavailable), we get very quick aromatization to methyl estradiol which is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more potent than regular estradiol simply due to the resistance to hepatic metabolism.

So you don't really end up with any estradiol, but you are getting methyl-estradiol, just less of it that you would from Methyl-4-AD.  




> if you are welling to take all risks of sides. i advice you to try methyl 5aa i converts to DHT which is more anbolic than test and its way much cheaper than m4ad



I kind of like methyl-5-AA myself, although I don't think it's a terribly versitile PS.  I mean, if you're cutting, I think it's great, but, while it is more anabolic than test, it's not by that great a margin-- it's the same reason why I'll never try to bulk on 3-Alpha (and I have a hunch most would agree).  I'm a big fan of 3-Alpha, and Methyl-5-AA is essentially an even more potent 3-Alpha (although with the former you're also getting methyl-DHT, which-- for those who know-- delivers _brutal_ androgenic sides...), so you'd certainly see the literal 'hardening' effects once you're below 10%, but that lack of aromatization really short-changes the actual mass gains you can make off it.  IMHO, 17aa-5-AA is more of an 'aesthetic' steroid than a real building block.  

Pro should have gotten his shipment of it in today, so I'll be interested to see how it pans out for him...


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## ZECH (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by ILokiI *_
> 
> Yeah, like I said earlier, if we could get 17aa-1,4-ADDione that was stable, we wouldn't have this problem and we'd likely see a great PS.  17aa-1,4ADDiol isn't really that bad however, and it's got some nice aspects to it.  Basically, the way it's structured, when this Boldiol is ingested, it doesn't really 'get' the methylation until it starts converting to estradiol.  For example, if you start with boldenone (the steroid EQ), it converts to estradiol on a small scale (hence the lean gains) which is then metabolized rather quickly (although it's still a potent estrogen-- luckily, with regular 1,4, we get very little, so it's not a big deal, which is why people use Boldione for bulking _and_ cutting...).
> 
> ...


 What he said!


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## Power Rabbit (Dec 23, 2003)

Hmm so u got good results from injectable 4ad? Near that of test? I was really debateing trying a cycle of injectable phoromones...kinda as a mid step between gear and OTC.


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## prolangtum (Dec 23, 2003)

You do have to dose fairly high. I used 4-ad cyp, 4-ad base is somewhat painful, and hard to get into a high enough mg/ml solution. After cutting and than maintaining for a couple of months, I started 4-ad cyp @ 1200mgs per week at a bodyweight of about 225. 6 weeks in I was up to 235 with a little bit of water. I just recently got off PCT, Im about 4 weeks totally clean, holding at 230. For a one compound cycle, I would go for about 1600mgs per week, which should be close to about 400-500mgs of Test per week, at least comparing the two compounds. I do love injectable 1-T cyp. Mg for Mg it did more for me than EQ ever did. I ran 10 weeks @ 1 gram per week, and 600mgs of 4-ad cyp, just for libido. I got down to right around 7% BF, and I was only 250 cals below maintenance. By week 5 of 1-T cyp, I could tell a quite dramatic hardening of the muscles, and BF kept dropping with nil change in diet.


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## Dante B. (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> http://legalgear.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43



There is so much nonsense on their site, it's disgusting. Many of the discussions revolving around these compounds----the new methylated hormones---are likewise obscene.



> In talking to our BioChemist, Diols are anabolic on their own, but he says that they are weak binders. Methylating these compounds should make them strong binders



Oh, I'd really love see what evidence anyone has concerning the intrinsic nature of any diol. Methylation typically reduces, not increases receptor affinity.

And receptor affinity, alone, has nothing to do with how anabolic a substance is. DHT has a several-fold higher androgen receptor affinity than testosterone.

Is DHT the superior anabolic, for this fact?

Here's a good article:


http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?issueID=13&pageID=129

Perhaps this will shut some people the fuck up.


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## Dante B. (Dec 23, 2003)

Along similar lines:

Just about every discussion dealing with the new methylated hormones is damned to degrade into utter nonsense---and I'm not speaking in regards to Gopro. I'm speaking in general, as every fuck-tard has managed to pick up a copy of Vida's book, but in the process, few managed to catch an ounce of common sense along the way.

Now every rote monkey can swing from tree to tree with their prehensile tales, seemingly capable of grasping only the fanciful branches that a parrot managed to will out of its ass.


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## Power Rabbit (Dec 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by prolangtum *_
> You do have to dose fairly high. I used 4-ad cyp, 4-ad base is somewhat painful, and hard to get into a high enough mg/ml solution. After cutting and than maintaining for a couple of months, I started 4-ad cyp @ 1200mgs per week at a bodyweight of about 225. 6 weeks in I was up to 235 with a little bit of water. I just recently got off PCT, Im about 4 weeks totally clean, holding at 230. For a one compound cycle, I would go for about 1600mgs per week, which should be close to about 400-500mgs of Test per week, at least comparing the two compounds. I do love injectable 1-T cyp. Mg for Mg it did more for me than EQ ever did. I ran 10 weeks @ 1 gram per week, and 600mgs of 4-ad cyp, just for libido. I got down to right around 7% BF, and I was only 250 cals below maintenance. By week 5 of 1-T cyp, I could tell a quite dramatic hardening of the muscles, and BF kept dropping with nil change in diet.



Cool...thanks bro...Im definately gonna give that a try some time. sounds like some quality gains  What company is leading the way on 1-test cyp powder that dont hurt? I hear 1-t can be a pretty painful jab.


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## prolangtum (Dec 23, 2003)

I have used 1-T base, hurts and painful dont begin to describe it. 1-T cyp on the other hand is about on par with Test Eth injection pain. I get my powder from bulknutrition, and never had a bad inject from it.


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## ILokiI (Dec 23, 2003)

yeah, bump on that.  Mike really has the 'quality control' thing nailed down to a tee; he's even got the assays listed out on the page.  

http://www.1fast400.com/?products_id=570&osCsid=62064ee03a7edcd6a1fafb3d51124d01

(with 1Fast/Bulknutrition, it's rather hard to go wrong...)


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## prolangtum (Dec 23, 2003)

Just dont buy 19 nor cyp, I had zero results off of even a gram


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## Dante B. (Dec 23, 2003)

Note:

My latest comments weren't in reference to Loki. They were in reference to just about everyone else who has put their face in that book, without concurrently allowing the gravity of logic to pull their head out of their ass.


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## PreMier (Dec 23, 2003)

Subscribe.

I am interested to see the outcome of this products test.


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## prolangtum (Dec 23, 2003)

Dante,
Is it okay for me to blow smoke out of my ass though, since I dont have a Vida book?


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## Twin Peak (Dec 24, 2003)

Who is Vida?


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## firestorm (Dec 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Fire, Pro is actually a rather experienced AAS user.  His concerns re nolvadex is due (I believe) to the comments he posted by Pat Arnold regarding this compound and the concerns that it will be highly estrogenic, and not (relatively) very anabolic.



I can understand that TP and I don't have any problem whatsoever with his stating his point regarding that.   The only thing that I found distasteful was how he makes it look like VPX is underhanded.  My point was only that MANY companies offer their products for FREE even to get some feedback before they go live with a product.  Shit man, they even do it for TV shows!!!  That was my only dislike regarding his post.


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## Mudge (Dec 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> BTW, this is something I do from time to time, as I see no issues with linking other boards on our board. If nothing else, cross polination of boards is only a good thing as far as learning and knowledge are concerned. If you counted, you'd be suprised how many members here are a result of me talking about IM (including a moderator) elsewhere.



It helps keep the entire community alive.


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## firestorm (Dec 28, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Who is Vida?



Vida is the brother of Min  best known as the vidamin brothers.  lol


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## Dale Mabry (Jan 12, 2004)

Just saw this thread and thought I would post a bit on it.  I like GP, he is a cool guy and I love VPXs Micellean MRP, but I feel this latest deal is a little off base.  

In a time when the FDA is on the supp companie's backs, it seems inappropriate to sell a product in order to beta test it.  In the pharm industry, you NEVER charge trial participants for the pharmaceuticals they use, ESPECIALLY something that has never been tested before.  In most cases, the pharm companies pay a HYOOGE participation fee to subjects.  Regardless of whether or not there is sound theory behind it or not, you have no idea what the human body is going to do to it and how a person's system will react.  Even if you reacted well to the compound GP, 1 participant is not enough to assess the adverse effects that could come as a result of it.  Although this is just my opinion, albeit one based on a fair amount knowledge on the subject, doing stuff like this will NOT help the reputation of the supplement industry.


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## firestorm (Jan 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> Just saw this thread and thought I would post a bit on it.  I like GP, he is a cool guy and I love VPXs Micellean MRP, but I feel this latest deal is a little off base.
> 
> In a time when the FDA is on the supp companie's backs, it seems inappropriate to sell a product in order to beta test it.  In the pharm industry, you NEVER charge trial participants for the pharmaceuticals they use, ESPECIALLY something that has never been tested before.  In most cases, the pharm companies pay a HYOOGE participation fee to subjects.  Regardless of whether or not there is sound theory behind it or not, you have no idea what the human body is going to do to it and how a person's system will react.  Even if you reacted well to the compound GP, 1 participant is not enough to assess the adverse effects that could come as a result of it.  Although this is just my opinion, albeit one based on a fair amount knowledge on the subject, doing stuff like this will NOT help the reputation of the supplement industry.



Dale your statements are totally correct but I think others led this thread to believe that this was being beta tested.  GoPro's initial offer was a discount on the product with hopes that people will post remarks on the product which in essence is moreso free advertising.  
A perfect example is that of SYNTRAX  SWOLE V.2, ISOMATRIX RELOADED.   I can't speak for Babsie or DG but I can speak for myself regarding their products.  I was sent an email asking me if I would try their products and then start threads or post comments on those products they gave me.  Now I can't be bought off for a mere tub of protein and some Swole by starting positive threads on those products if I didn't really stand behind my beliefs.  I honestly liked them and continue to use them even though they are no longer free.  GOPRO is taking the same tried and tested advertising approach except he is offering a discounted price rather then free.  Then again,, MAD is hella more expensive then Swole or Isomatrix.    IN short he is not testing the products on us but asking for free publicity for a discounted price.  
those "outsiders' came here stirring up shit and GPs true words were lost in all the hog wash.


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## Var (Jan 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> 
> A perfect example is that of SYNTRAX  SWOLE V.2, ISOMATRIX RELOADED.   I can't speak for Babsie or DG but I can speak for myself regarding their products.  I was sent an email asking me if I would try their products and then start threads or post comments on those products they gave me.



This is extremely interesting to me.  I always suspected that some of this was going on.  I hope other members have been as honest with their feedback as you claim to be.



> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> 
> those "outsiders' came here stirring up shit and GPs true words were lost in all the hog wash.



I'm assuming by "outsiders" you referring to Prolangtum and other AM guys.  There are some interesting threads over there which shed some light on why they are as skeptical of VPX as they are.  They actually called GoPro out and tried to have a solid debate, but he backed down.

I'm not trying to stir shit or bust GoPro's balls.  I actually use his workout and have learned a lot from his posts.  Just felt the need to clear the air a bit.


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## Dale Mabry (Jan 12, 2004)

Ethically you are not supposed to charge for a product that hasn't been tested, that's all I was getting at.  I would not imagine Methylated 4ad to cost all that much considering the low cost of regular 4ad.  I suppose the issue here would be more as to whether or not VPX was making a buck or not, which I bet they are.  Regardless, a company as big as VPX could afford to beta test it at their cost considering how big they are.  You don't see Merck charging people to test out their products until they are finished.  This, of course, is not GP's choice, it would be the head of VPXs choice.


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## firestorm (Jan 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Var *_
> This is extremely interesting to me.  I always suspected that some of this was going on.  I hope other members have been as honest with their feedback as you claim to be.
> 
> 
> ...


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## firestorm (Jan 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Dale Mabry *_
> Ethically you are not supposed to charge for a product that hasn't been tested, that's all I was getting at.  I would not imagine Methylated 4ad to cost all that much considering the low cost of regular 4ad.  I suppose the issue here would be more as to whether or not VPX was making a buck or not, which I bet they are.  Regardless, a company as big as VPX could afford to beta test it at their cost considering how big they are.  You don't see Merck charging people to test out their products until they are finished.  This, of course, is not GP's choice, it would be the head of VPXs choice.



I understand what your saying Dale and as I already stated I agree with you.  You shouldn't charge for a product that hasn't been tested.  but that is not the case with MAD.  Gopro never said it wasn't tested. That was assumed somewhere along the line early in this thread.  He offered a discount price before it actually hit the shelves at full price of 100.00.  In return for the discount he only asked for written feedback here in the forum as it's been done with other products.  This is a form of advertising and publicity for VPX.   He offered a discount for advertising not asking for test subjects.   He believes the product is good and "expects" people to post postively.


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## Var (Jan 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> 
> Oh believe me Var,, I sure as hell wouldn't have even admitted it if I wasn't being clearly honest.   In fact I'm "deadly" honest and those that know me best can testify that my "honesty" has in fact gotten me banned from several sites.



I certainly wasnt implying that you were dishonest.  The fact is, I don't know you and have no idea if you're an honest person or not.  I also pride myself on my honesty, and anyone who knows me will attest to it, but I dont expect you to take my word for it.



> Yes but who they are is actually irrelivant.  As for what they say, I'm not debating it because Gopro can fight his own battles I'm there for moral support and to back him up if mud slinging starts.  My point was after they showed up the point of his original offer was lost in confusion.  I'm merely pointing out that GP is working the free advertising angle.  Keeping in mind that angle can cut both ways.  If people like it they will respond positively.  If they don't see results, well they are "expected" to tell us the Truth.  GP wouldn't expect anyone to lie and I can damn well guarentee,, friend or not, if a product does nothing for me I'd either say nothing or say it did nothing for me that I could tell.



As I said before, I was in no way trying to stir shit.  I try to keep things civil here because I think we have a great group at IM.  I've actually wanted to say something ever since the "mudslinging" started.  Having read the threads over at AM, I can definitely understand their frustration with VPX and GoPro's inability/ lack of interest in backing up his claims.  I just think it puts the mudslinging in perspective.


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## firestorm (Jan 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by Var *_
> I certainly wasnt implying that you were dishonest.  The fact is, I don't know you and have no idea if you're an honest person or not.  I also pride myself on my honesty, and anyone who knows me will attest to it, but I dont expect you to take my word for it.
> 
> I didn't think you were implying I was dishonest.  All good Var.  I respect you for speaking your mind.  I'm all for freedom of speech bro.
> ...



I don't believe I suggested you were tyring to stir up shit. Speak your mind that is your right.   The only problem that most of us had is that we are not members of AM so whatever transpired there should stay there. We as members of IM see a friend of ours under attack for something that happened elsewhere and we as friends will back him up.  That kind of loyalty to our members is also a reason why we have such a good group here.  I personnally have never gotten a 1/2 assed answer from GP.  Many times he gives me more info that I really want to read through.  Sometimes how a converation is going can be a reason why GP or anyone may loose interest in a thread.  If all your seeing is criticism and attack you back off and call it a day.  that may have been GPs stance over there, I don't know and honestly I really don't care.  I'm not part of that board and don't care what was said there.  I only care about what I read here.


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## Var (Jan 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> I don't believe I suggested you were tyring to stir up shit. Speak your mind that is your right.   The only problem that most of us had is that we are not members of AM so whatever transpired there should stay there. We as members of IM see a friend of ours under attack for something that happened elsewhere and we as friends will back him up.  That kind of loyalty to our members is also a reason why we have such a good group here.  I personnally have never gotten a 1/2 assed answer from GP.  Many times he gives me more info that I really want to read through.  Sometimes how a converation is going can be a reason why GP or anyone may loose interest in a thread.  If all your seeing is criticism and attack you back off and call it a day.  that may have been GPs stance over there, I don't know and honestly I really don't care.  I'm not part of that board and don't care what was said there.  I only care about what I read here.



I'm in agreement with you here.  IM'ers were kinda left in the dark regarding the issues at AM and it did sound as though they were just trying to cause trouble.  I guess that's why I wanted to put my $.02 in and get their back a little.  I was going to post a link to the thread in question a couple weeks ago, but decided against it due to our members apparent lack of interest .  I have this weird need for people to understand the truth...when it seems they havent been given all the details.  Gets me into these debates too often.


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## firestorm (Jan 12, 2004)

Var again I see your point but really what does the truth about something that happened elsewhere matter?  What does matter is the information you get here!  Can we agree on that?  I feel "here" GOPRO has always answered questions fully and when he wasn't sure about something he said so.  He even said that here on this thread.  He said he wasn't really sure about how well this product (mad) really was at this point.  And for someone that represents the company that was pretty damn cool of him to say.  He could have blown smoke up our butts saying the stuff was great but he did not do that.  He has shown nothing but honesty here so going on about what happened somewhere else isn't worth debating and that is the bottom line.


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## Var (Jan 12, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by firestorm *_
> Var again I see your point but really what does the truth about something that happened elsewhere matter?  What does matter is the information you get here!  Can we agree on that?  I feel "here" GOPRO has always answered questions fully and when he wasn't sure about something he said so.  He even said that here on this thread.  He said he wasn't really sure about how well this product (mad) really was at this point.  And for someone that represents the company that was pretty damn cool of him to say.  He could have blown smoke up our butts saying the stuff was great but he did not do that.  He has shown nothing but honesty here so going on about what happened somewhere else isn't worth debating and that is the bottom line.



I'm sorry, but I definitely CANNOT agree with you on that. Information is information...truth is truth.  If someone gets slammed on another board and cant back up claims made...its relevent when similar claims are made here.  
This is an old arguement and I wasnt trying to fan the fire.  When you made your "outsiders" comment, I was compelled to comment.


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## firestorm (Jan 12, 2004)

Its only relevant if the claims are still not backed up HERE. Because he walked away there isn't relative Here at least not to us as you have noticed from the overwhelming support GP receives from us.  If as you say claims were not answered elsewhere and the same questions were brought up here and still being side stepped then you have an argument.  But seriously,, I still don't care if he walked away from some other board.  And I really don't care if he had told those guys to go F#$ themselves over there.  I just don't care!  Most of us don't.  
My suggestion is this if you must keep this silly thing alive.   Start a thread with the original question regarding VPX and then see what type of response you get here.


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## ZECH (Mar 16, 2004)

Anyone have any updates on M 4/ad they can share?


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## gopro (Mar 16, 2004)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Anyone have any updates on M 4/ad they can share?



Here are some results posted from another board in regards to MAD 250:

hello all! ok here are the results of my mad cycle 2 weeks week one at 3cc day week 2 at 5cc day. over all there were alot of results in basically every catagorie but im only going to name the main ones, ok here we go.

starting weight 174lbs,  final weight 182lbs
starting chest 42.5",    final chest 44"
starting biceps 15"      final bicep 15 1/2"
starting calf 16.5"      final calf  16 3/4"
starting thigh 24        final thigh  24.5"
starting forearm 13"    final forearm 13 1/4"
starting waist 33"      final waist 33.5"
WEIGHTS
starting bench press 245 X 1  final 245 X 6
starting incline dumbell press 85x10 final 100x3
starting standing tri extensions 90x10 final 130x5

those are the major gains, over all my strength was amazing. only side effects that i experienced was i was a little more wired at night then normal so i got less sleep hence was tired in the weight room somedays, umm face stayed fine, actually cleared up more from when i started it the key is washing 3xs a day. um i was a little more edgey then normal but it would only be right after i took a dose and then like 5 minutes later my girl friend would say something stupid. and because my weights went up so much my joins are absolutely killing me in my forearms but thats well worth it. good side effect my libido increased a little! haha... so over all i cant complain one bit this product is all and more then whats its cracked up to be and my chest is getting beautiful!!!!!!!! lol... so my advice is for anyone looking for some amazing strength gains and nice size give mad a shot. dont wait for the ban to pull it off ! buy it now damn it now! haha. later guys have a great week


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