# Stop Animal M-Stak & replace with...?



## Big G (Jul 6, 2007)

I've been taking Animal M-Stak. I have no idea if it did anything, but I've read nuerous times since buying it that it's not a particularly well-renound/powerful supplement. What would be a decent alternative to stimulate hormone increases and hypertrophy? I don't want steroids. I tried Anabolic Matrix Rx before M-Stak, but it didn't do much for me either (as far as I can tell).

w/thx,
G.


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## Big G (Jul 9, 2007)

Was this a stupid question? Aren't there products available that stimulate testosterone, IGF, growth hormone dot dot dot while reducing oestrogen and the like _naturally_? Something to aide hypertrophy legally (assuming OK diet/program)? Anyone?

This is the supplements section, right?


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## soxmuscle (Jul 10, 2007)

It's not the question that's stupid, it's the thought process that Anabolic Matrix RX and/or Animal M-Stak is going to help your cause like gear would that's stupid.

All the "natural" products are made (for the most part) with various herbs, plants, vitamins, amino's, etc.  You're not going to make steroid like gains on grass and leaves shoved into a capsule.


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## Big G (Jul 10, 2007)

Are we reading the same thread!? I don't see anywhere where I'm asking for grass and leaves that are _equivalent _to 'roids.

I believe what I said was _aren't there products available that stimulate testosterone, IGF, growth hormone dot dot dot while reducing oestrogen and the like naturally? _

Actually, what I should've written is _aren't there products available that stimulate testosterone, IGF, growth hormone dot dot dot while reducing oestrogen and the like *legally*?_

On T-Nation recently I was reading about some new chemical/compound/substance/whatever. They were discussing (in really technical/molecular terms) whether it was a steroid or pro-hormone. They concluded, in this particular thread, that the drug they were discussing was a steroid, but it made me realize I know nothing really about pro-hormones. Is that shit legal? What's the difference between roids & pro-hormones? If it's legal does it still require Nolvadex PCT (or similar)?

These may be some really dumb questions, but that's allowed, right?


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## nni (Jul 10, 2007)

just look into activate xtreme or the nha stack.


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## soxmuscle (Jul 10, 2007)

Big G said:


> Are we reading the same thread!? I don't see anywhere where I'm asking for grass and leaves that are _equivalent _to 'roids.
> 
> I believe what I said was _aren't there products available that stimulate testosterone, IGF, growth hormone dot dot dot while reducing oestrogen and the like naturally? _
> 
> ...



Sorry.  I didn't mean for it to sound like that.  All I'm saying is, if you're not going to take real gear, all of the legal supplements out there that advertise that you'll get steroid-like results are for the most part shit products.

Anabolic Matrix RX is your best bet, in my opinion.


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## Big G (Jul 10, 2007)

nni said:


> just look into activate xtreme or the nha stack.



Both Designer Supplements' products. Imagine that!

Anyone got an unbiased opinion here?


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## nni (Jul 10, 2007)

i said look into it, not buy it. you are asking for a super duper magic product that doesnt exist.

forget about growth hormone and igf most products that are legal cannot do that.

now stopping estrogen and boosting test, that you can address, and i am sorry that i am associated with the company, but if took a second to actually do some research you will see that the NHA stack is extremely popular and very effective.

but by all means keep looking for snake oil, and as for talking about bias, you are reading t-nation, stop doing that.

prohormones and steroids in my view are the same thing, some remain legal simply because they are not specifically listed on the banned substances bill. they eventually will be added, but new compounds will be found and the cycle will continue.


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## Big G (Jul 10, 2007)

OK. Cool. That really does helps. Thanks. There's an absolute sea of bullcrap barely-do-a-damn-thing products out there, I know. As an 8mo newbie in this sport, with only limited time to delve deeper into these things, it's been a headache trying to see the woods for the trees. 

I think I've been pretty lucky to have ended up hanging out here, of all places. There are some great people on here who are more than happy to offer a helping hand, I'm sure there are plenty of other not-so-great mssgboards out there! I gather T-Nation is all 'roids from your reply. I'll gladly steer clear. I want to know it's just been me and piles of good food that done what I'm going to do to myself! 

Thanks again.

G.


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## Big G (Jul 10, 2007)

Just FYI... I found another DesignerSupps guy talking sense in an English chatroom too (muscletalk.co.uk)...

_...in the grand scheme of things, the supplement industry is only so good. The PH era was "special" in that, real steroids were being sold as supplements, but the chances of a new wave of significantly anabolic products will be few and far between now. There will always be the odd few gems in the dust, but there will also be a lot of crap. Crap with excellent marketing. 

People's expectations are still revving high from "supplemental" steroids so anything else will pale in comparison. The only genuine comparison is actual anabolic steroids, so if those are the kind of gains you're after, you'll have to decide which path you wanna go down. _

I tend to see company names and think salesman. It's refreshing to see some down to earth opinions of the products being promoted. Keep up the good work!


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## nni (Jul 11, 2007)

i try to help and not be a salesman, it just so happens that some of the products we make address 2 of your 4 needs. there are other products that do that though. like i said consider the NHA stack, if you can't find rebound reloaded, get 6-OXO and if that is too pricey you could try novedex xt, and you should have no issue finding activate.

thanks though. i try not to be too shilly


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## Big G (Jul 11, 2007)

I'm on it. Thanks again.


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## Big G (Jul 12, 2007)

nni said:


> i try to help and not be a salesman, it just so happens that some of the products we make address 2 of your 4 needs. there are other products that do that though. like i said consider the NHA stack, if you can't find rebound reloaded, get 6-OXO and if that is too pricey you could try novedex xt, and you should have no issue finding activate.



OK... I couldn't find Rebound available so consequently the NHA Stack was unavailable too. I eventually settled on 2 bottles of both Nolvedex and ActivaTe (8wk cycle).

The only instruction I could find on the cycle referred to Rebound and ActivaTe stacked over 4 weeks. If I wanted to do an 8 week cycle with an ActivaTe/Nolvedex stack instead, how should it look? 

I've heard if oestrogen drops too low it can be detrimental to libido. I don't want that! Mine's already f&^%ed from not sleeping anywhere near enough lately (something I plan to be much better about in the weeks/months to come).

Anyway... Again... For An 8wk cycle of an ActivaTe/Nolvedex stack how should it look and when should they be taken? One ActivaTe with each of four meals (w/10g fat min') and however-many nolvedex the bottle recommends (taken at night)? Is that right?  Should I increase the dosages from week 1 to week 2 etc, or just start as I mean to go on?

Thoughts?

w/thx,
G.


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## nni (Jul 12, 2007)

you mean novedex xt from gaspari correct? assuming that is what you are taking about, check out this old ad..

http://www.designersupps.com/product_writeups/ad_nha.pdf

being as you are not using RXT, you shold follow the dosing protocols on Novedex. i think they are similar with rxt being 2-3 a day and nxt being 2-4 a day.

RXT and NXT are very similar and you could follow that dosing protocol. As far as libido thats hit or miss, my libidio was destroyed on ATD, if you start feeling that, then drop the dosage, in fact if you are already prone, then you may want to start off lower than recommeded and work from there.
4 activate a day is the way to go though. DO NOT ignore the tapering off period, you very much want to do this to avoid any possible estrogen rebound, its not guaranteed to happen, but its best to just taper off for the last week.


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## Big G (Jul 13, 2007)

nni said:


> you mean novedex xt from gaspari correct? Yes. assuming that is what you are taking about, check out this old ad.. Kewl. Thx.
> 
> http://www.designersupps.com/product_writeups/ad_nha.pdf
> 
> ...



Wish me luck!


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## nni (Jul 13, 2007)

atd is rebound xt or an ai extremely similar to novedex. good luck with it.


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## Nate K (Jul 14, 2007)

eat more and eat right.  I like Fuze by primaforce for a trib. product.

Haven't tried anabolic matrix RX


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## Nate K (Jul 14, 2007)

ATD based products decrease libido........or so iv'e heard.


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## Nate K (Jul 14, 2007)

nevermind that was already mentioned


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## Big G (Jul 15, 2007)

Nate K said:


> eat more and eat right.



More than 3,600-3,800?



Nate K said:


> ATD based products decrease libido........or so iv'e heard.



Ah, fuck! That's all I need. It's been low anyway. 

Wouldn't the test' boost from ActivaTe increase libido though? I never did get that... Why lower oestrogen levels would decrease libido. I would've imagined it was driven by the amount of free test.

Anyway... it's only stinging nettle root extract we're talking about here, not a prohormone.


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## Big G (Jul 15, 2007)

I put the ActivaTe/NovedexXT combo alongside a new 12wk training program. Details in my new IM journal if anyone cares to look/comment.

Thanks everyone, anyway.

G.


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