# Prostitution.....should it be legalised?



## iloveaerobics (Nov 5, 2010)

Prostitution.....should it be legalised?
No....I am not looking for a career change before you ask...

Just pondering about those poor women in Bradford, and the other year in Ipswich- and then going back further to the Yorkshire Ripper and Jack the Ripper and oooh....probably many many more of these women that we don't know about.

Now...I know its not a choice made because its a good option- most ( not all) of the women have drug problems or massive debts and are out on the streets because they feel they have no other choice....but quite obviously they are at the mercy of well......mad men.

Would it not be better to legalise prostitution, make brothels safe places where health checks can be done, condoms easily available and the women work in a place of safety?. Not only that they wouldn't have pimps taking their money and indeed...they could be taxed on their earnings

Because lets face it...its not called 'the oldest profession' for nothing.....its not going to go away is it?

Thoughts?


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## SFW (Nov 5, 2010)

no, it shouldnt. It would take away from the thrill and danger. Nothing like rolling up to a group of shady skanks at 2am and not knowing whether you'll get jacked or bagged by the popo. Fight or flight is quite a thrill.


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## arush (Nov 5, 2010)

I read in the news paper that an ontario judge has legalized it here.  lots of unhappy people, but it can take years for supreme court to reverse her decision.

she said it wasn't because she believed in prostitution, but because she wanted the prostitutes to be about to call for help to LE if they were in danger.


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## min0 lee (Nov 5, 2010)

Yes.
Those vagina's work around the clock.... vagina's need rest too you know.


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## REDDOG309 (Nov 5, 2010)

min0 lee said:


> Yes.
> Those vagina's work around the clock.... vagina's need rest too you know.



Don't you mean around the cock?


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## min0 lee (Nov 5, 2010)

REDDOG309 said:


> Don't you mean around the cock?


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## MDR (Nov 5, 2010)

No.
It should stay illegal and the laws should be inforced.  Anyone who states that prostitution is a victimless crime just doesn't have a clue.


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## BillHicksFan (Nov 5, 2010)

Prostitution is legal here in Australia and the girls are glad to take your money. I think that it is immoral to have prostitution illegal.
Without it I think that there would be more cases of rape and beastiality. I live near a brothel in my city but I haven't been there for about 12 years... I think I'm well over-due.


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## twstdn8v (Nov 5, 2010)

MDR said:


> No.
> It should stay illegal and the laws should be inforced.  Anyone who states that prostitution is a victimless crime just doesn't have a clue.



I'm curious who do you think is the victim there besides the government not gettin their piece of the pie. 

It has been legalized around las vegas and it's become much safer for all parties involved hiv and other health checks. As well as police protection if something goes wrong no more pinp slaps and indentured servitude. Just a thought.


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## MDR (Nov 5, 2010)

twstdn8v said:


> I'm curious who do you think is the victim there besides the government not gettin their piece of the pie.
> 
> It has been legalized around las vegas and it's become much safer for all parties involved hiv and other health checks. As well as police protection if something goes wrong no more pinp slaps and indentured servitude. Just a thought.



Not much of a thought, if you ask me, but I'll play along.  The answer to who is the victim is obvious.

Melissa  Farley, PhD, Founding Director of the Prostitution Research and  Education, wrote in the Oct. 2004 _Violence Against Women_ journal  article "'Bad for the Body, Bad for the Heart:' Prostitution Harms Women  Even If Legalized or Decriminalized" that:_"The  regulation of prostitution by zoning is a physical manifestation of the  same social/psychological stigma that decriminalization advocates  allegedly want to avoid. Reflecting the social isolation of those in it,  prostitution is often removed from the mainstream. Whether in Turkish  genelevs (walled-off multiunit brothel complexes) or in Nevada brothels  (ringed with barbed wire or electric fencing), women in state-zoned  prostitution are physically isolated and socially rejected by the rest  of society."_

                                     Oct. 2004                     ​Veronica Monet,  prostitute and author, in a Mar. 26, 2006 interview on the Suicide Girls  website, said:_"Most of  the brothels do not care about the women who work for them. They care  about the clients who are paying them. I don't like legalized brothels. I  have nothing against the women that are working in this system but the  women who work in legal strip clubs and legal brothels do not benefit  from any kind of labor rights."_

                                     Mar. 26, 2006                     ​Anastasia  Volkonsky, JD, Founder and former Project Director of Prevention,  Referral, Outreach, Mentoring, and Intervention to End Sexual  Exploitation (PROMISE), in the Feb. 27, 1995 _Insight on the News_  article "Legalization the 'Profession' Would Sanction the Abuse," wrote:_"Behind the  facade of a regulated industry, brothel prostitutes in Nevada are  captive in conditions analogous to slavery. Women often are procured for  the brothels from other areas by pimps who dump them at the house in  order to collect the referral fee. Women report working in shifts  commonly as long as 12 hours, even when ill, menstruating or pregnant,  with no right to refuse a customer who has requested them or to refuse  the sexual act for which he has paid. The dozen or so prostitutes I  interviewed said they are expected to pay the brothel room and board and  a percentage of their earnings -- sometimes up to 50 percent. They also  must pay for mandatory extras such as medical exams, assigned clothing  and fines incurred for breaking house rules. And, contrary to the common  claim that the brothel will protect women from the dangerous, crazy  clients on the streets, rapes and assaults by customers are covered up  by the management."_

                                     Feb. 27, 1995                     ​                                                    Sounds like a great system to me.


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## BillHicksFan (Nov 5, 2010)

We have call girls here in Oz too. They all have their personal security/ bodygaurd that waits somewhere around the premises that she is working in and she has a buzzer that notifies her bodygaurd of any trouble. 
Brothels here have strict rules too, too strict for my liking but I can appreciate why they need to be like that as they do deal with all kinds of people.

Prostitution can fit into society without harming anybody, there just needs to be laws put into place in order to protect the woman (and sometimes men).

A lot of young university students opt to prostitute themselves as to go to uni and hold a job to support themselves is not viable. They can work just one weekend and spend the rest of their time focusing on their studies for the next two weeks while living comfortably.
I will never forget the time I had just turned 18 years old and my mates and I headed to the city to go to a classy brothel, we were like kids in a candy store. This brothel was the first of any to secure a spot in the stock exchange, just another legitimate business.


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## MDR (Nov 5, 2010)

See below











                                                    |


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## MDR (Nov 5, 2010)

More directly to the point of the original question by the OP:

The National Center  for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC), in the 1992 _Female  Juvenile Prostitution: Problem and Response_ stated:
_"MYTH 2  - Prostitution is a victimless crime. __

Prostitution  creates a setting whereby crimes against men, women, and children become  a commercial enterprise.... It is an assault when he/she forces a  prostitute to engage in sadomasochistic sex scenes. When a pimp compels a  prostitute to submit to sexual demands as a condition of employment, it  is exploitation, sexual harassment, or rape -- acts that are based on  the prostitute’s compliance rather than her consent. The fact that a  pimp or customer gives money to a prostitute for submitting to these  acts does not alter the fact that child sexual abuse, rape, and/or  battery occurs; it merely redefines these crimes as prostitution."_

                                     1992                     - National Center for Missing  and Exploited Children (NCMEC)​                                      The Pontifical  Council for the Pastoral Care of the Migrants and Itinerant People, in  the June 20-21, 2006 "First International Meeting of Pastoral Care for  the Liberation of Women of the Street," wrote:
_"Who is the victim? __

She is a human  being, in many cases crying for help because selling her body on the  street is not what she would choose to do voluntarily. She is torn  apart, she is dead psychologically and spiritually. Each person has a  different story, mainly one of violence, abuse, mistrust, low self  esteem, fear, lack of opportunities. Each has experienced deep wounds  that need to be healed."_

                                     June 20-21, 2006                     - Pontifical  Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People ​                                      Joseph Parker,  Clinical Director of the Lola Greene Baldwin Foundation, wrote the Aug.  4, 1998 "How Prostitution Works," which stated:
_"People who have had  luckier lives, as well as those who profit from the sex industry in some  way, frequently refer to prostitution and pornography as 'victim-less  crimes'. They point to a tiny fraction of sex workers who actually might  be involved by choice. They selectively read history to find some tiny  minority, somewhere, at some time, who gained something in the sex  business.
__
The very selectiveness of their attention indicates that, on  some level, they know that for almost everyone, involvement in the sex  industry is a terrible misfortune. 
__
As many an old cop  will say, 'Anyone who thinks prostitution is a victimless crime, hasn’t  seen it up close.'"_

                                     Aug. 4, 1998                     - Joseph Parker ​                                      Andrew Arena,  JD, Special Agent in Charge of Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in  Detroit, was quoted in the Aug. 16, 2006 FBI press release "Halting  Human Trafficking: 31 Arrests in Major Prostitution Ring" as having  said:
_"Illegal prostitution is  not a victimless crime. The FBI is part of the apparatus in place to  protect people, sometimes even from their own poor choices."_

                                     Aug. 16, 2006                     - Andrew Arena, JD​


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## twstdn8v (Nov 5, 2010)

Weeeellllllllll I guess it depends on who does the study.


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## Nightowl (Nov 5, 2010)

In other countries they make bank, here where the states that have it legal, they make squat.  So, that is why most leave and go to Europe.  Some have been known to make up 6 digits, and then marry a nice man and make shopping sprees with the intent to purchase 100k in jewels.  So, for USA with homeless up and then their urinal streets,  and paying for 300 lbs fatso to do nodda by our taxes,   I head out of here.   (I had to vent)


If you're dead serious,  I'd reconsider here in the states and move.


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## BillHicksFan (Nov 5, 2010)

That study reflects exactly how I feel just going to work.


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## MDR (Nov 5, 2010)

twstdn8v said:


> Weeeellllllllll I guess it depends on who does the study.



Not really.  Again, anyone who argues that prostitution is a victimless crime is clearly not seeing reality.  As a rule, normal, healthy, well-adjusted individuals do not choose to become prostitutes.  I've never understood why anyone would want to have sex with someone for money.  Sounds about as much fun to me as moving furniture.


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## bio-chem (Nov 5, 2010)

MDR said:


> More directly to the point of the original question by the OP:
> 
> The National Center  for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC), in the 1992 _Female  Juvenile Prostitution: Problem and Response_ stated:
> _"MYTH 2  - Prostitution is a victimless crime. __
> ...



needs to be said twice. well done


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## twstdn8v (Nov 5, 2010)

Thanks for answerin didnt realize all that was involved still even with things legalized.


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## BillHicksFan (Nov 5, 2010)

MDR said:


> Not really. Again, anyone who argues that prostitution is a victimless crime is clearly not seeing reality. As a rule, normal, healthy, well-adjusted individuals do not choose to become prostitutes. I've never understood why anyone would want to have sex with someone for money. Sounds about as much fun to me as moving furniture.


 

People move furniture for a living too.


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## Arnold (Nov 6, 2010)

*of course it should be legal*, I can go pay for a full body massage, if I want that to include a handjob, felatio or even sex why the fuck does anyone else care? it's my business and the person I am paying for the service, NO ONE has any right to tell two consenting adults they can't have sex, and if one of them is paying the other BIG FUCKING DEAL! 

how is porn not prostitution? two or more people are being paid to have sex so it can be filmed, doesn't that make them all prostitutes?

we will never stop prostitution,so make it legal, make prostitutes get monthly check-ups and carry an ID card saying their legal, AND tax it. if they come up positive for a disease they lose their ID and risk getting arrested.


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## MDR (Nov 6, 2010)

Prince said:


> *of course it should be legal*, I can go pay for a full body massage, if I want that to include a handjob, felatio or even sex why the fuck does anyone else care? it's my business and the person I am paying for the service, NO ONE has any right to tell two consenting adults they can't have sex, and if one of them is paying the other BIG FUCKING DEAL!
> 
> how is porn not prostitution? two or more people are being paid to have sex so it can be filmed, doesn't that make them all prostitutes?
> 
> we will never stop prostitution,so make it legal, make prostitutes get monthly check-ups and carry an ID card saying their legal, AND tax it. if they come up positive for a disease they lose their ID and risk getting arrested.



The key word here Prince is consent.  Prostitution does not include consent.  Just because someone is paid does not take away the fact that they are often being violated, both physically and emotionally.  NO ONE has the right to force someone into sex for money.  This is not about freedom of choice.  It is about basic human respect.  I find prostitution disgusting and immoral, and a violation of basic human decency and dignity.  Society has an obligation to protect its most vulnerable members.  Prostitutes have often gone through a long history of sexual molestation and rape before progressing to the point of becoming prostitutes.  Little girls don't dream of growing up and fucking people for money.  These are wounded and damaged people, often hopelessly addicted and without viable choices in their lives.  Anyone capable of making an informed decision about their own lives would not get involved in the degrading and dehumanizing act of selling their bodies for money.


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## GearsMcGilf (Nov 6, 2010)

MDR said:


> The key word here Prince is consent.  Prostitution does not include consent.  Just because someone is paid does not take away the fact that they are often being violated, both physically and emotionally.  NO ONE has the right to force someone into sex for money.  This is not about freedom of choice.  It is about basic human respect.  I find prostitution disgusting and immoral, and a violation of basic human decency and dignity.  Society has an obligation to protect its most vulnerable members.  Prostitutes have often gone through a long history of sexual molestation and rape before progressing to the point of becoming prostitutes.  Little girls don't dream of growing up and fucking people for money.  These are wounded and damaged people, often hopelessly addicted and without viable choices in their lives.  Anyone capable of making an informed decision about their own lives would not get involved in the degrading and dehumanizing act of selling their bodies for money.



  Yeah yeah!  So, they're already damaged goods before they get into the business.  At least this way, they can make some $ after going thru all of the abuse.  A lot of women are abused who don't become hookers.  There are also women who just don't have a a lot of self respect and do it just for the money.  Look at Heidi Fleiss.  She acted like she was some kind of friggin Bill Gates of the prostitution business.  I say give them a legal permit and let them sell some ass.  Only the hot ones tho.  And, they gotta pay for their own spermicide, douche, etc.  No free handouts from the govt.


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## MDR (Nov 6, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> Yeah yeah!  So, they're already damaged goods before they get into the business.  At least this way, they can make some $ after going thru all of the abuse.  A lot of women are abused who don't become hookers.  There are also women who just don't have a a lot of self respect and do it just for the money.  Look at Heidi Fleiss.  She acted like she was some kind of friggin Bill Gates of the prostitution business.  I say give them a legal permit and let them sell some ass.  Only the hot ones tho.  And, they gotta pay for their own spermicide, douche, etc.  No free handouts from the govt.



No misogyny in that statement.  Your humanitarian values are clear.


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## GearsMcGilf (Nov 6, 2010)

I am all for women being able to work outside of the home.  This way, they can even work from inside the home without having to worry about glass ceilings, unequal pay, etc.


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## Muscle_Girl (Nov 6, 2010)

I saw a show which studied the evolution of legal prostitution in Amsterdam. There are a few benefits, but what so many people don't realize is that it supports a HUGE human trafficking industry. Its bad enough that human trafficking is pretty much active anywhere in the world, but it has gotten so bad in Amsterdam that they are actually trying to limit and even close down window shops.

Sure, women are handed bundles of money for their services, but look beyond that. Most of the time there is a pimp in the background forcing her and coercing with a drug habit he started her on. 

I think legalizing prostitution would only make a bad human trafficking issue even worse, therefore I wouldn't support it.


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## dave 236 (Nov 6, 2010)

I just have one question. When has declaring anything illegal stoped it from happening?


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## Arnold (Nov 6, 2010)

you all do realize that prostitution is legal in Nevada and it does not cause any problems.


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## MDR (Nov 6, 2010)

Prince said:


> you all do realize that prostitution is legal in Nevada and it does not cause any problems.



Yep-covered that earlier-

Melissa  Farley, PhD, Founding Director of the Prostitution Research and   Education, wrote in the Oct. 2004 _Violence Against Women_  journal  article "'Bad for the Body, Bad for the Heart:' Prostitution  Harms Women  Even If Legalized or Decriminalized" that:_"The  regulation of prostitution by zoning is a physical  manifestation of the  same social/psychological stigma that  decriminalization advocates  allegedly want to avoid. Reflecting the  social isolation of those in it,  prostitution is often removed from the  mainstream. Whether in Turkish  genelevs (walled-off multiunit brothel  complexes) or in Nevada brothels  (ringed with barbed wire or electric  fencing), women in state-zoned  prostitution are physically isolated and  socially rejected by the rest  of society."_

                                     Oct. 2004                     ​Veronica  Monet,  prostitute and author, in a Mar. 26, 2006 interview on the  Suicide Girls  website, said:_"Most of   the brothels do not care about the women who work for them. They care   about the clients who are paying them. I don't like legalized brothels. I   have nothing against the women that are working in this system but the   women who work in legal strip clubs and legal brothels do not benefit   from any kind of labor rights."_

                                     Mar. 26, 2006                     ​Anastasia   Volkonsky, JD, Founder and former Project Director of Prevention,   Referral, Outreach, Mentoring, and Intervention to End Sexual   Exploitation (PROMISE), in the Feb. 27, 1995 _Insight on the News_   article "Legalization the 'Profession' Would Sanction the Abuse,"  wrote:_"Behind the  facade of a regulated  industry, brothel prostitutes in Nevada are  captive in conditions  analogous to slavery. Women often are procured for  the brothels from  other areas by pimps who dump them at the house in  order to collect the  referral fee. Women report working in shifts  commonly as long as 12  hours, even when ill, menstruating or pregnant,  with no right to refuse  a customer who has requested them or to refuse  the sexual act for  which he has paid. The dozen or so prostitutes I  interviewed said they  are expected to pay the brothel room and board and  a percentage of  their earnings -- sometimes up to 50 percent. They also  must pay for  mandatory extras such as medical exams, assigned clothing  and fines  incurred for breaking house rules. And, contrary to the common  claim  that the brothel will protect women from the dangerous, crazy  clients  on the streets, rapes and assaults by customers are covered up  by the  management."_

                                     Feb. 27, 1995                     ​                                                     Sounds like a great system to  me.


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## BillHicksFan (Nov 6, 2010)

At the end of the day there are two sides to this profession and of course the lower classes are going to gravitate towards prostitution as it is easy money and the demand is always there.

Then there are the high class prostitutes who charge up tp $10,000 per hour to be companions for rich businessmen. They are extremeley adaptable to every occasion and carry themselves with class and style. 

I'm sure that if every country legalised prostitution the human trafficking rackets would crumble.


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## CellarDoor (Nov 6, 2010)

Wanna hear something funny? I was in another forum last week and someone started this exact same thread.  I mean word for word on that first post.


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## aussie1 (Nov 6, 2010)

thought it was legal lol


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## twarrior (Nov 7, 2010)

MDR said:


> Not really.  Again, anyone who argues that prostitution is a victimless crime is clearly not seeing reality.  As a rule, normal, healthy, well-adjusted individuals do not choose to become prostitutes.  I've never understood why anyone would want to have sex with someone for money.  Sounds about as much fun to me as moving furniture.



WHAT??!!!! making money to get laid....where do I sign up for that ...and I've moved furniture all my life and have no problem with it.


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## GearsMcGilf (Nov 7, 2010)

All women are really prostitutes anyway.  Some will give it up for $50, and others it takes a lot more.  But, at the end of the day, they're all selling it.


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## Silver Back (Nov 7, 2010)

CellarDoor said:


> Wanna hear something funny? I was in another forum last week and someone started this exact same thread.  I mean word for word on that first post.



Because OP is a spambot. 

OP, where's Chuckychucky and Iamsupercute? You fucking spambot POS.


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## CellarDoor (Nov 7, 2010)

Silver Back said:


> Because OP is a spambot.
> 
> OP, where's Chuckychucky and Iamsupercute? You fucking spambot POS.



That's it! Iamsupercute.


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## CellarDoor (Nov 7, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> All women are really prostitutes anyway.  Some will give it up for $50, and others it takes a lot more.  But, at the end of the day, they're all selling it.



^^^ agreed.  But u fall for it.


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## MDR (Nov 7, 2010)

twarrior said:


> WHAT??!!!! making money to get laid....where do I sign up for that ...and I've moved furniture all my life and have no problem with it.



Well Twarrior, since you are a guy that means getting fucked in the ass and sucking a lot of dick.  If you are that interested in such things, I'm sure you'll find work somewhere, even in this economy.  Good luck with that.


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## GearsMcGilf (Nov 7, 2010)

I wish it were legal.  With the wife being out of town, I could sure use another fix without having to resort to another extramarital affair.  But, the qualidad is never quite as good at those happy ending massage places.  If it were legal, I reckon you could find hotter and cleaner chicks.  Just food for thought.


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## MDR (Nov 7, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> I wish it were legal.  With the wife being out of town, I could sure use another fix without having to resort to another extramarital affair.  But, the qualidad is never quite as good at those happy ending massage places.  If it were legal, I reckon you could find hotter and cleaner chicks.  Just food for thought.



Shocking!  You cheat on your wife!  Hard to believe given your views on women in general.  Never had much trouble meeting attractive and intelligent women; it's not like there is a shortage out there or anything.  But then again, I actually like women.  Good luck at the massage parlor.


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## Bilal123 (Nov 7, 2010)

MDR said:


> Shocking! You cheat on your wife! Hard to believe given your views on women in general. Never had much trouble meeting attractive and intelligent women; it's not like there is a shortage out there or anything. But then again, I actually like women. Good luck at the massage parlor.


 
Zing!


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## Trained to Kill (Nov 8, 2010)

What's goin on guys?


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## KelJu (Nov 8, 2010)

MDR said:


> No.
> It should stay illegal and the laws should be inforced.  Anyone who states that prostitution is a victimless crime just doesn't have a clue.



You sound like you are referring to the terrible things that happen to women in the life of prostitution. You are right, but only because pussy, in the US, is a black market commodity.

Hookers are treated much differently in countries like Amsterdam and Germany. Working women are required to have their clients use condoms. They have protection through a Union type system, so there is no need for pimps. The women are cleaner, safer, and nearly all problems associated with prostitution goes away.  


The argument that women are in danger, therefor prostitution should remain illegal for their protection is an invasion of their liberty. It's their pussy, they should do whatever they want with it. On the other hand, a pimp brings nothing to the table and is most often the one that endangers the hookers the most.


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## MDR (Nov 8, 2010)

KelJu said:


> You sound like you are referring to the terrible things that happen to women in the life of prostitution. You are right, but only because pussy, in the US, is a black market commodity.
> 
> Hookers are treated much differently in countries like Amsterdam and Germany. Working women are required to have their clients use condoms. They have protection through a Union type system, so there is no need for pimps. The women are cleaner, safer, and nearly all problems associated with prostitution goes away.
> 
> The argument that women are in danger, therefor prostitution should remain illegal for their protection is an invasion of their liberty. It's their pussy, they should do whatever they want with it. On the other hand, a pimp brings nothing to the table and is most often the one that endangers the hookers the most.



I could not disagree with you more.

* [FONT=arial,helvetica]               10 Reasons for Not Legalizing Prostitution  [/FONT]*

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]by Janice G. Raymond 
                Coalition Against Trafficking in Women International (CATW) 
                (March 25, 2003) [/FONT]​ *[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Summary[/FONT]*

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]                 The following arguments apply to all state-sponsored forms of  prostitution, including but not limited to full-scale legalization of  brothels and pimping, decriminalization of the sex industry, regulating  prostitution by laws such as registering or mandating health checks for  women in prostitution, or any system in which prostitution is recognized  as "sex work" or advocated as an employment choice. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As  countries are considering legalizing and decriminalizing the sex  industry, we urge you to consider the ways in which legitimating  prostitution as "work" does not empower the women in prostitution but  does everything to strengthen the sex industry. [/FONT]​ 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  Legalization/decriminalization                      of prostitution is a gift to pimps, traffickers and  the sex                      industry. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  Legalization/decriminalization                      of prostitution and the sex industry promotes sex  trafficking.                      [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  Legalization/decriminalization                      of prostitution does not control the sex industry.It  expands                      it. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  Legalization/decriminalization                      of prostitution increases clandestine, hidden,  illegal and                      street prostitution. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  Legalization                      of prostitution and decriminalization of the sex  Industry                      increases child prostitution. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  Legalization/decriminalization                      of prostitution does not protect the women in  prostitution.                      [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  Legalization/decriminalization                      of prostitution increases the demand for  prostitution. It                      boosts the motivation of men to buy women for sex in  a much                      wider and more permissible range of socially  acceptable settings.                      [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  Legalization/decriminalization                      of prostitution does not promote women's health. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  Legalization/decriminalization                      of prostitution does not enhance women's choice. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  Women                      in systems of Prostitution do not want the sex  industry legalized                      or decriminalized. [/FONT]
 *[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Arguments:[/FONT]*

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] *1. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution is a gift  to pimps, traffickers and the sex industry. *[/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What  does legalization of prostitution or decriminalization of the sex  industry mean? In the Netherlands, legalization amounts to sanctioning  all aspects of the sex industry: the women themselves, the so-called  "clients," and the pimps who, under the regime of legalization, are  transformed into third party businessmen and legitimate sexual  entrepreneurs. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Legalization/decriminalization  of the sex industry also converts brothels, sex clubs, massage parlors  and other sites of prostitution activities into legitimate venues where  commercial sexual acts are allowed to flourish legally with few  restraints. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ordinary  people believe that, in calling for legalization or decriminalization  of prostitution, they are dignifying and professionalizing the women in  prostitution. But dignifying prostitution as work doesn't dignify the  women, it simply dignifies the sex industry. People often don't realize  that decriminalization, for example, means decriminalization of the  whole sex industry not just the women. And they haven't thought through  the consequences of legalizing pimps as legitimate sex entrepreneurs or  third party businessmen, or the fact that men who buy women for sexual  activity are now accepted as legitimate consumers of sex. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]CATW  favors decriminalization of the women in prostitution. No woman should  be punished for her own exploitation. But States should never  decriminalize pimps, buyers, procurers, brothels or other sex  establishments.

[/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*2.  Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution and the sex industry  promotes sex trafficking. *[/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Legalized  or decriminalized prostitution industries are one of the root causes of  sex trafficking. One argument for legalizing prostitution in the  Netherlands was that legalization would help end the exploitation of  desperate immigrant women trafficked for prostitution. A report done for  the governmental Budapest Group* stated that 80% of women in the  brothels in the Netherlands are trafficked from other countries  (Budapest Group, 1999: 11). As early as 1994, the International  Organization of Migration (IOM) stated that in the Netherlands alone,  "nearly 70 per cent of trafficked women were from CEEC Central and  Eastern European Countries]" (IOM, 1995: 4). [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The  government of the Netherlands promotes itself as the champion of  anti-trafficking policies and programs, yet cynically has removed every  legal impediment to pimping, procurement and brothels. In the year 2000,  the Dutch Ministry of Justice argued for a legal quota of foreign "sex  workers," because the Dutch prostitution market demands a variety of  "bodies" (Dutting, 2001: 16). [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Also  in the year 2000, the Dutch government sought and received a judgment  from the European Court recognizing prostitution as an economic  activity, thus enabling women from the EU and former Soviet bloc  countries to obtain working permits as "sex workers" in the Dutch sex  industry if they can prove that they are self employed. NGOs in the  Netherlands have stated that traffickers are taking advantage of this  ruling to bring foreign women into the Dutch prostitution industry by  masking the fact that women have been trafficked, and by coaching the  women how to prove that they are self-employed "migrant sex workers." [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In  the one year since lifting the ban on brothels in the Netherlands, NGOs  report that there has been an increase of victims of trafficking or, at  best, that the number of victims from other countries has remained the  same (Bureau NRM, 2002: 75). Forty-three municipalities in the  Netherlands want to follow a no-brothel policy, but the Minister of  Justice has indicated that the complete banning of prostitution within  any municipality could conflict with "the right to free choice of work"  (Bureau NRM: 2002) as guaranteed in the federal Grondwet or  Constitution. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In  January, 2002, prostitution in Germany was fully established as a  legitimate job after years of being legalized in so-called eros or  tolerance zones. Promotion of prostitution, pimping and brothels are now  legal in Germany. As early as 1993, after the first steps towards  legalization had been taken, it was recognized (even by pro-prostitution  advocates) that 75 per cent of the women in Germany's prostitution  industry were foreigners from Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay and other  countries in South America (Altink, 1993: 33). After the fall of the  Berlin wall, brothel owners reported that 9 out of every 10 women in the  German sex industry were from eastern Europe (Altink, 1993: 43) and  other former Soviet countries. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The  sheer volume of foreign women who are in the prostitution industry in  Germany - by some NGO estimates now up to 85 per cent - casts further  doubt on the fact that these numbers of women could have entered Germany  without facilitation. As in the Netherlands, NGOs report that most of  the foreign women have been trafficked into the country since it is  almost impossible for poor women to facilitate their own migration,  underwrite the costs of travel and travel documents, and set themselves  up in "business" without outside help. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The  link between legalization of prostitution and trafficking in Australia  was recognized in the U.S. State Department's 1999 Country Report on  Human Rights Practices, released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human  Rights and Labor. In the country report on Australia, it was noted that  in the State of Victoria which legalized prostitution in the 1980s,  "Trafficking in East Asian women for the sex trade is a growing problem"  in Australia…lax laws - including legalized prostitution in parts of  the country - make [anti-trafficking] enforcement difficult at the  working level." [/FONT]​ 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*3.Legalization/decriminalization  of prostitution does not control the sex industry. It expands it. *[/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Contrary  to claims that legalization and decriminalization would regulate the  expansion of the sex industry and bring it under control, the sex  industry now accounts for 5 percent of the Netherlands economy (Daley,  2001: 4). Over the last decade, as pimping became legalized and then  brothels decriminalized in the Netherlands in 2000, the sex industry  expanded 25 percent (Daley, 2001: 4). At any hour of the day, women of  all ages and races, dressed in hardly anything, are put on display in  the notorious windows of Dutch brothels and sex clubs and offered for  sale -- for male consumption. Most of them are women from other  countries (Daley, 2001: 4) who have in all likelihood been trafficked  into the Netherlands. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There                   are now officially recognized associations of sex  businesses and                  prostitution "customers" in the Netherlands that consult                   and collaborate with the government to further their  interests                  and promote prostitution. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]These  include the "Association of Operators of Relaxation Businesses," the  "Cooperating Consultation of Operators of Window Prostitution," and the  "Man/Woman and Prostitution Foundation," a group of men who regularly  use women in prostitution, and whose specific aims include "to make  prostitution and the use of services of prostitutes more accepted and  openly discussible," and "to protect the interests of clients" (NRM  Bureau, 2002:115-16). [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Faced  with a dearth of women who want to "work" in the legal sex sector, the  Dutch National Rapporteur on Trafficking states that in the future, a  proposed "solution" may be to "offer [to the market] prostitutes from  non EU/EEA countries, who voluntarily choose to work in prostitution…"  They could be given "legal and controlled access to the Dutch market"  (NRM Bureau, 2002: 140). As prostitution has been transformed into "sex  work," and pimps into entrepreneurs, so too this potential "solution"  transforms trafficking into voluntary migration for "sex work." The  Netherlands is looking to the future, targeting poor women of color for  the international sex trade to remedy the inadequacies of the free  market of "sexual services." In the process, it goes further in  legitimizing prostitution as an "option for the poor." [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Legalization  of prostitution in the State of Victoria, Australia, has led to massive  expansion of the sex industry. Whereas there were 40 legal brothels in  Victoria in 1989, in 1999 there were 94, along with 84 escort services.  Other forms of sexual exploitation, such as tabletop dancing, bondage  and discipline centers, peep shows, phone sex, and pornography have all  developed in much more profitable ways than before (Sullivan and  Jeffreys: 2001). [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Prostitution  has become an accepted sideline of the tourism and casino boom in  Victoria with government-sponsored casinos authorizing the redeeming of  casino chips and wheel of fortune bonuses at local brothels (Sullivan  and Jeffreys: 2001). The commodification of women has vastly intensified  and is much more visible. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Brothels  in Switzerland have doubled several years after partial legalization of  prostitution. Most of these brothels go untaxed, and many are illegal.  In 1999, the Zurich newspaper, Blick, claimed that Switzerland had the  highest brothel density of any country in Europe, with residents feeling  overrun with prostitution venues, as well as experiencing constant  encroachment into areas not zoned for prostitution activities (South  China Morning Post: 1999). [/FONT]​ 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*4.  Legalization/decriminalzaton of prostitution increases clandestine,  hidden, illegal and street prostitution. *[/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Legalization  was supposed to get prostituted women off the street. Many women don't  want to register and undergo health checks, as required by law in  certain countries legalizing prostitution, so legalization often drives  them into street prostitution. And many women choose street prostitution  because they want to avoid being controlled and exploited by the new  sex "businessmen." [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In  the Netherlands, women in prostitution point out that legalization or  decriminalization of the sex industry cannot erase the stigma of  prostitution but, instead, makes women more vulnerable to abuse because  they must register and lose anonymity. Thus, the majority of women in  prostitution still choose to operate illegally and underground. Members  of Parliament who originally supported the legalization of brothels on  the grounds that this would liberate women are now seeing that  legalization actually reinforces the oppression of women (Daley, 2001:  A1). [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The  argument that legalization was supposed to take the criminal elements  out of sex businesses by strict regulation of the industry has failed.  The real growth in prostitution in Australia since legalization took  effect has been in the illegal sector. Since the onset of legalization  in Victoria, brothels have tripled in number and expanded in size - the  vast majority having no licenses but advertising and operating with  impunity (Sullivan and Jeffreys: 2001). [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In  New South Wales, brothels were decriminalized in 1995. In 1999, the  numbers of brothels in Sydney had increased exponentially to 400-500.  The vast majority have no license to operate. To end endemic police  corruption, control of illegal prostitution was taken out of the hands  of the police and placed in the hands of local councils and planning  regulators. The council has neither the money nor the personnel to put  investigators into brothels to flush out and prosecute illegal  operators. [/FONT]​ 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*5.  Legalization of prostitution and decriminalization of the sex industry  increases child prostitution. *[/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Another  argument for legalizing prostitution in the Netherlands was that it  would help end child prostitution. In reality, however, child  prostitution in the Netherlands has increased dramatically during the  1990s. The Amsterdam-based ChildRight organization estimates that the  number has gone from 4,000 children in 1996 to 15,000 in 2001. The group  estimates that at least 5,000 of the children in prostitution are from  other countries, with a large segment being Nigerian girls (Tiggeloven:  2001). [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Child  prostitution has dramatically risen in Victoria compared to other  Australian states where prostitution has not been legalized. Of all the  states and territories in Australia, the highest number of reported  incidences of child prostitution came from Victoria. In a 1998 study  undertaken by ECPAT (End Child Prostitution and Trafficking) who  conducted research for the Australian National Inquiry on Child  Prostitution, there was increased evidence of organized commercial  exploitation of children. [/FONT]​ 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*6.  Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not protect the  women in prostitution. *[/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The  Coalition Against Trafficking in Women International (CATW) has  conducted 2 major studies on sex trafficking and prostitution,  interviewing almost 200 victims of commercial sexual exploitation. In  these studies, women in prostitution indicated that prostitution  establishments did little to protect them, regardless of whether they  were in legal or illegal establishments. "The only time they protect  anyone is to protect the customers." [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In  a CATW 5-country study that interviewed 146 victims of international  trafficking and local prostitution, 80% of all women interviewed  suffered physical violence from pimps and buyers) and endured similar  and multiple health effects from the violence and sexual exploitation  (Raymond et al: 2002). [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The  violence that women were subjected to was an intrinsic part of the  prostitution and sexual exploitation. Pimps used violence for many  different reasons and purposes. Violence was used to initiate some women  into prostitution and to break them down so that they would do the  sexual acts. After initiation, at every step of the way, violence was  used for sexual gratification of the pimps, as a form of punishment, to  threaten and intimidate women, to exert the pimp's dominance, to exact  compliance, to punish women for alleged "violations," to humiliate  women, and to isolate and confine women. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Of  the women who did report that sex establishments gave some protection,  they qualified it by pointing out that no "protector" was ever in the  room with them, where anything could occur. One woman who was in  out-call prostitution stated: "The driver functioned as a bodyguard.  You're supposed to call when you get in, to ascertain that everything  was OK. But they are not standing outside the door while you're in  there, so anything could happen." [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]CATW's  studies found that even surveillance cameras in prostitution  establishments are used to protect the establishment. Protection of the  women from abuse is of secondary or no importance. [/FONT]​ 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*7.  Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution increases the demand for  prostitution. It boosts the motivation of men to buy women for sex in a  much wider and more permissible range of socially acceptable settings. *[/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]With  the advent of legalization in countries that have decriminalized the  sex industry, many men who would not risk buying women for sex now see  prostitution as acceptable. When the legal barriers disappear, so too do  the social and ethical barriers to treating women as sexual  commodities. Legalization of prostitution sends the message to new  generations of men and                  boys that women are sexual commodities and that prostitution is  harmless fun. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As  men have an excess of "sexual services" that are offered to them, women  must compete to provide services by engaging in anal sex, sex without  condoms, bondage and domination and other proclivities demanded by the  clients. Once prostitution is legalized, all holds are barred. Women's  reproductive capacities are sellable products, for example. A whole new  group of clients find pregnancy a sexual turn-on and demand breast milk  in their sexual encounters with pregnant women. Specialty brothels are  provided for disabled men, and State-employed caretakers who are mostly  women must take these men to the brothels if they wish to go (Sullivan  and Jeffreys: 2001). [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Advertisements  line the highways of Victoria offering women as objects for sexual use  and teaching new generations of men and boys to treat women as  subordinates. Businessmen are encouraged to hold their corporate  meetings in these clubs where owners supply naked women on the table at  tea breaks and lunchtime. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A  Melbourne brothel owner stated that the client base was "well educated  professional men, who visit during the day and then go home to their  families." Women who desire more egalitarian relationships with men find  that often the men in their lives are visiting the brothels and sex  clubs. They have the choice to accept that their male partners are  buying women in commercial sexual transactions, avoid recognizing what  their partners are doing, or leave the relationship (Sullivan and  Jeffreys: 2001). [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sweden's  Violence Against Women, Government Bill 1997/98:55 prohibits and  penalizes the purchase of "sexual services." It is an innovative  approach that targets the demand for prostitution. Sweden believes that  "By prohibiting the purchase of sexual services, prostitution and its  damaging effects can be counteracted more effectively than hitherto."  Importantly, this law clearly states that "Prostitution is not a  desirable social phenomenon" and is "an obstacle to the ongoing  development towards equality between women and men."** [/FONT]​ 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*8.  Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not promote women's  health. *[/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A  legalized system of prostitution that mandates health checks and  certification only for women and not for clients is blatantly  discriminatory to women. "Women only" health checks make no public  health sense because monitoring prostituted women does not protect them  from HIV/AIDS or STDs, since male "clients" can and do originally  transmit disease to the women. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It  is argued that legalized brothels or other "controlled" prostitution  establishments "protect" women through enforceable condom policies. In  one of CATW's studies, U.S. women in prostitution interviewed reported  the following: 47% stated that men expected sex without a condom; 73%  reported that men offered to pay more for sex without a condom; 45% of  women said they were abused if they insisted that men use condoms. Some  women said that certain establishments may have rules that men wear  condoms but, in reality, men still try to have sex without them. One  woman stated: "It's 'regulation' to wear a condom at the sauna, but  negotiable between parties on the side. Most guys expected blow jobs  without a condom (Raymond and Hughes: 2001)." [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In  reality, the enforcement of condom policy was left to the individual  women in prostitution, and the offer of extra money was an insistent  pressure. One woman stated: "I'd be one of those liars if I said 'Oh I  always used a condom.' If there was extra money coming in, then the  condom would be out the window. I was looking for the extra money." Many  factors militate against condom use: the need of women to make money;  older women's decline in attractiveness to men; competition from places  that do not require condoms; pimp pressure on women to have sex with no  condom for more money; money needed for a drug habit or to pay off the  pimp; and the general lack of control that prostituted women have over  their bodies in prostitution venues. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So  called "safety policies" in brothels did not protect women from harm.  Even where brothels supposedly monitored the "customers" and utilized  "bouncers," women stated that they were injured by buyers and, at times,  by brothel owners and their friends. Even when someone intervened to  control buyers' abuse, women lived in a climate of fear. Although 60  percent of women reported that buyers had sometimes been prevented from  abusing them, half of those women answered that, nonetheless, they  thought that they might be killed by one of their "customers" (Raymond  et al: 2002). [/FONT]​ 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*9.  Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not enhance women's  choice.* [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Most  women in prostitution did not make a rational choice to enter  prostitution. They did not sit down one day and decide that they wanted  to be prostitutes. Rather, such "choices" are better termed "survival  strategies." Rather than consent, a prostituted woman more accurately  complies to the only options available to her. Her compliance is  required by the very fact of having to adapt to conditions of inequality  that are set by the customer who pays her to do what he wants her to  do. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Most  of the women interviewed in CATW studies reported that choice in  entering the sex industry could only be discussed in the context of the  lack of other options. Most emphasized that women in prostitution had  few other options. Many spoke about prostitution as the last option, or  as an involuntary way of making ends meet. In one study, 67% of the law  enforcement officials that CATW interviewed expressed the opinion that  women did not enter prostitution voluntarily. 72% of the social service  providers that CATW interviewed did not believe that women voluntarily  choose to enter the sex industry (Raymond and Hughes: 2001). [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The  distinction between forced and voluntary prostitution is precisely what  the sex industry is promoting because it will give the industry more  security and legal stability if these distinctions can be utilized to  legalize prostitution, pimping and brothels. Women who bring charges  against pimps and perpetrators will bear the burden of proving that they  were "forced." How will marginalized women ever be able to prove  coercion? If prostituted women must prove that force was used in  recruitment or in their "working conditions," very few women in  prostitution will have legal recourse and very few offenders will be  prosecuted. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Women  in prostitution must continually lie about their lives, their bodies,  and their sexual responses. Lying is part of the job definition when the  customer asks, "did you enjoy it?" The very edifice of prostitution is  built on the lie that "women like it." Some prostitution survivors have  stated that it took them years after leaving prostitution to acknowledge  that prostitution wasn't a free choice because to deny their own  capacity to choose was to deny themselves. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There  is no doubt that a small number of women say they choose to be in  prostitution, especially in public contexts orchestrated by the sex  industry. In the same way, some people choose to take dangerous drugs  such as heroin. However, even when some people choose to take dangerous  drugs, we still recognize that this kind of drug use is harmful to them,  and most people do not seek to legalize heroin. In this situation, it  is harm to the person, not the consent of the person that is the  governing standard. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Even  a 1998 ILO (UN International Labor Organization) report suggesting that  the sex industry be treated as a legitimate economic sector, found that  "…prostitution is one of the most alienated forms of labour; the  surveys [in 4 countries] show that women worked 'with a heavy heart,'  'felt forced,' or were 'conscience-stricken' and had negative  self-identities. A significant proportion claimed they wanted to leave  sex work [sic] if they could (Lim, 1998: 213)." [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]                 When a woman remains in an abusive relationship with a partner who  batters her, or even when she defends his actions, concerned people  don't say she is there voluntarily. They recognize the complexity of her  compliance. Like battered women, women in prostitution often deny their  abuse if provided with no meaningful alternatives. [/FONT]​ 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*10.  Women in systems of prostitution do not want the sex industry legalized  or decriminalized. *[/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In  a 5-country study on sex trafficking done by the Coalition Against  Trafficking in Women and funded by the Ford Foundation, most of the 146  women interviewed strongly stated that prostitution should not be  legalized and considered legitimate work, warning that legalization  would create more risks and harm for women from already violent customer  and pimps (Raymond et al, 2002). "No way. It's not a profession. It is  humiliating and violence from the men's side." Not one woman interviewed  wanted her children, family or friends to have to earn money by  entering the sex industry. One stated: "Prostitution stripped me of my  life, my health, everything." [/FONT]​ 

*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Conclusion:  [/FONT]*
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Legislators  leap onto the legalization bandwagon because they think nothing else is  successful. However, as Scotland Yard's Commissioner has stated:  "You've got to be careful about legalizing things just because you don't  think what you are doing is successful." [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We  hear very little about the role of the sex industry in creating a  global sex market in the bodies of women and children. Instead, we hear  much about making prostitution into a better job for women through  regulation and/or legalization, through unions of so-called "sex  workers," and through campaigns which provide condoms to women in  prostitution but cannot provide them with alternatives to prostitution.  We hear much about how to keep women in prostitution but very little  about how to help women get out. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Governments  that legalize prostitution as "sex work" will have a huge economic  stake in the sex industry. Consequently, this will foster their  increased dependence on the sex sector. If women in prostitution are  counted as workers, pimps as businessmen, and buyers as consumers of  sexual                  services, thus legitimating the entire sex industry as an economic  sector, then governments can abdicate responsibility for making decent  and sustainable employment available to women [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rather  than the State sanctioning prostitution, the State could address the  demand by penalizing the men who buy women for the sex of prostitution,  and support the development of alternatives for women in prostitution  industries. Instead of governments cashing in on the economic benefits  of the sex industry by taxing it, governments could invest in the  futures of prostituted women by providing economic resources, from the  seizure of sex industry assets, to provide real alternatives for women  in prostitution. [/FONT]​ *[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] 

Notes: [/FONT]*
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Budapest  Group. (1999, June). The Relationship Between Organized Crime and  Trafficking in Aliens. Austria: International Centre for Migration  Policy Development. The Budapest process was initiated in 1991. Nearly  40 governments and 10 organizations participate in the process, and  about 50 intergovernmental meetings at various levels have been held,  including the Prague Ministerial Conference. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]**The  National Rapporteur on trafficking at the National Swedish Police has  stated that in the 6 months following the implementation of the Swedish  law in January 1999, the number of trafficked women to Sweden has  declined. She also stated that according to police colleagues in the  European Union that traffickers are choosing other destination countries  where they are not constrained by similar laws. Thus the law serves as a  deterrent to traffickers. Quoted in Karl Vicktor Olsson, "Sexkopslagen  minkar handeln med kvinnor," Metro, January 27, 2001: 2. [/FONT]​ *[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]


REFERENCES[/FONT]*:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Altink,  Sietske. (1995). Stolen Lives: Trading Women into Sex and Slavery  (London: Scarlet Press). [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Budapest  Group. (1999, June). The Relationship Between Organized Crime and  Trafficking in Aliens. Austria: International Centre for Migration  Policy Development. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bureau  NRM. (2002, November). Trafficking in Human Beings: First Report of the  Dutch National Rapporteur. The Hague. 155 pp. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Daley,  Suzanne. (2001, August 12). "New Rights for Dutch Prostitutes, but No  Gain." New York Times, pp. A1 and 4. Dutting, Giseling. (2000,  November). "Legalized Prostitution in the Netherlands - Recent Debates.  Women's Global Network for Reproductive Rights, 3: 15-16. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]IOM  (International Organization for Migration). (1995, May). "Trafficking  and Prostitution: the Growing Exploitation of Migrant Women from Central  and Eastern Europe. Budapest: IOM Migration Information Program. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lim,  Lin Lean (1998). The Sex Sector. International Labour Office, Geneva,  Switzerland. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Raymond,  Janice G., Donna M. Hughes, Donna M. and Carol A. Gomez (2001). Sex  Trafficking of Women in the United States: Links Between International  and Domestic Sex Industries, Funded by the U.S. National Institute of  Justice. N. Amherst, MA: Coalition Against Trafficking in Women.  Available at http://www.catwinternational.org [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Raymond,  Janice G., Jean d'Cunha, Siti Ruhaini Dzuhayatin, H. Patricia 
                Hynes, Zoraida Ramirez Rodriguez and Aida Santos (2002). A  Comparative Study of Women Trafficked in the Migration Process:  Patterns, Profiles and Health Consequences of Sexual Exploitation in  Five Countries (Indonesia, the Philippines, Thailand, Venezuela and the  United States). (2002). Funded by the Ford Foundation. N. Amherst, MA:  Coalition Against Trafficking in Women (CATW). Available at http://www.catwinternational.org [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]South  China Morning Post (1999, September 10)."Brothel Business Booming at a  Legal Red-Light District Near You." [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sullivan,  Mary and Jeffreys, Sheila. (2001). Legalising Prostitution is Not the  Answer: the Example of Victoria, Australia. Coalition Against  Trafficking in Women, Australia and USA. Available at http://www.catwinternational.org [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Tiggeloven,  Carin. (2001, December 18). "Child Prostitution in the Netherlands."  Was available at http://www.nw.nl/hotspots/html/netherlands011218.html. [/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Contact  Person: *
                Dr. Janice G. Raymond[/FONT]​


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## assassin (Nov 8, 2010)

BillHicksFan said:


> That study reflects exactly how I feel just going to work.



loool


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## Arnold (Nov 8, 2010)

fighting prostitution is about as worthwhile as the war on drugs, complete waste of time, money and resources, period.


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## Curt James (Nov 8, 2010)

^This.

Prohibition does not work. Not with alcohol, drugs, or sex.


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## Curt James (Nov 8, 2010)

CellarDoor said:


> Wanna hear something funny? I was in another forum last week and someone started this exact same thread.  I mean word for word on that first post.



I'm on a number of forums other than IronMagazine (the best one, of course) and can tell you that this happens quite often. MD, Rx, BB.com, here, there, others probably all have the pic of Arnold flexing his biceps as the governor.

The thread about the cop who shot the guy in the back and said he thought he was tasering him? Appears on multiple boards.

Female Talk seems like the perfect location for a thread on prostitution-pro or con. It's an issue which has an impact on women.

I don't see where the OP was or is selling anything so I'm not sure where the spam accusation arises from. 

But, hey, I'm flexible. Convince me why I should hate this user. lol


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## MDR (Nov 8, 2010)

Curt James said:


> ^This.
> 
> Prohibition does not work. Not with alcohol, drugs, or sex.



Prostitution is about violence, control, manipulation and abuse, not sex.  Legalizing criminal acts because it is convenient to do so is not the answer to anything.  Might as well legalize assault, rape, child abuse and any and all forms of violence against women because they are all a part of the prostitution industry.  That is simply not a solution I am willing to accept.


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## Curt James (Nov 8, 2010)

^^^^I'm just saying that prohibition is ineffective. Doesn't mean I'm in favor of legalization especially.

Legal or illegal, people will be paying for sex. Or committing violence. Look at it from whatever perspective seems appropriate.

I'd rather see more money spent on support systems - self defense centers, drug rehabs, etc. - than on interdiction and incarceration.


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## MDR (Nov 9, 2010)

Curt James said:


> ^^^^I'm just saying that prohibition is ineffective. Doesn't mean I'm in favor of legalization especially.
> 
> Legal or illegal, people will be paying for sex. Or committing violence. Look at it from whatever perspective seems appropriate.
> 
> I'd rather see more money spent on support systems - self defense centers, drug rehabs, etc. - than on interdiction and incarceration.



Makes sense to me.  I think focusing law enforcement efforts on the victimizers rather than the victims makes sense.  Arrest the men who use prostitution, and make the sentences long enough to dissuade others.  Leave the victims alone and get them help (drug rehab, ect).


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## Arnold (Nov 9, 2010)

*It's Time to Make Prostitution Legal *

Prostitution has long been called the world's oldest  profession. For as  long back as we have records, evidence can be found of people  selling  sex for some sort of gain. When the colonists were running around   slaughtering the natives, they also were enjoying the pleasures of local   prostitutes. In fourth century, Athenian orator Apollodoros stated "we  have  courtesans for pleasure, and concubines for the daily service of  our bodies, but  wives for the production of legitimate offspring and to  have reliable guardians  of our household property." And yet in  "progressive" America, a land were people  claim to be the most socially  advanced, prostitution is an illegal act that  results in the  sheltering of rapists, drug dealers, and abusers.    

Legalization of prostitution could solve a lot of problems  caused by  its illegality, but it's unlikely that those rich old white guys in   Washington are going to make the change. They prefer to ignore the  issue,  occasionally making the token gesture at trying to end it  completely. Reality  check folks, if prostitution has been around this  long, it's not going anywhere.  You can throw more laws at it, up the  punishment, even do like Minnesota and  post those arrested for  prostitution (not those just found guilty) and stick  their pictures on  the internet, but you aren't going to change reality. Nevada  has  already seen the light...why not the rest of country?   

If this country were to legalize prostitution, we could  make a fortune  while also improving the health of our  country and the  "character" behind it all. Look at Nevada. Let's take  prostitution off the  streets by requiring services be offered in a  brothel or on appropriate web  sites. As for the common streetwalker,  arrest them for solicitation, but just  solicitation, no more tacking on  the prostitution part. Change the law to  require condoms and regular  health checks and AIDS testing. Where prostitution  is legal in Nevada,  the number of AIDS cases among the workers is now down to 0  (where the  illegal hookers have topped 25% infection...that's a one in four  chance  of paying to get AIDS).   

By having it legal, prostitutes will no longer have to  fear going to  the cops when they get raped or beaten. Over 60% have been raped,  and  yes, if you force a prostitute it is still rape. Most of the rapes go   unreported though because they'll just get arrested for being a victim.  How sick  is that? With legalized prostitution, families won't have to  wonder how a  prostitute died if they get murdered (since today's cops  don't give a fuck if a  whore gets popped). It would also cut back the  numbers of people forced into  prostitution. Now those victims can  report their attackers without fear of being  arrested of doing what  they were forced to do. 

Sure, those religious nuts will scream about it forever  (like they are  still fighting abortion, birth control, and taking religion out  of  schools), but who cares. There will always be prostitution; even Gene   Roddenberry knew that when he added those Dabo girls to Ferengi casinos.  So  let's make it safer for the workers and the clients, while upping  our countries  income tax earnings by making it a legal profession. Porn  is legal, stripping is  legal, why not sex for hire. Be honest, some  people couldn't get laid any other  way.


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## bio-chem (Nov 9, 2010)

does anyone honestly think that because prostitution is now legal they are going to want everyone know that this is their profession? legalizing this profession helps nothing. I agree with MDR 100% on all of his posts here


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## MDR (Nov 9, 2010)

I guess we need more evidence refuting all the proposals for legalizing prostitution.  The fact is, it just doesn't solve anything, and only serves to make matters worse.  Looking to simple solutions to complex social issues is just not the answer.

Cecilia Hoffman,  Secretary of the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women - Asia Pacific  (CATW-AP), wrote in the Aug. 1997 paper "SEX: From Human Intimacy to  'Sexual Labor' or Is Prostitution a Human Right?" published on the  CATW-AP website:
_"Prostitution  violates the right to physical and moral integrity by the alienation of  women’s sexuality that is appropriated, debased and reduced to a  commodity to be bought and sold. _
_It violates the prohibition of torture and of cruel, inhuman or  degrading treatment or punishment because clients’ acts and practices of  sexual 'entertainment' and pornography are acts of power and violence  over the female body. _
_It violates the right to liberty and security, and the  prohibition of slavery, of forced labor and of trafficking in persons  because millions of women and girls all over the world are held in  sexual slavery to meet the demand of even more millions of male buyers  of sex, and to generate profits for the capitalists of sex. _
_It violates the right to enjoy the highest standard of physical  and mental health because violence, disease, unwanted pregnancies,  unsafe abortions, and AIDS stalk, presenting constant and grave risks  for women and girls in prostitution, and militating against a healthy  sense of and relationship with their own bodies."_ 


				 					Aug. 1997					 - Cecilia Hoffman 
	
​ 			 			 			John Bambenek,  Executive Director of the Tumaini Foundation, wrote in his Jan. 2, 2007  post "The ACLU Is Fighting for the Trafficking of Women Worldwide" on  his Part-Time Pundit blog:
_"One  cannot support the reduction of AIDS infections and support legal  prostitution at the same time. Prostitution remains one of the leading  vectors for AIDS infection. This is true in the case of both legal and  illegal prostitution..._ 
_Prostitutes, because of their many partners, have a greatly  increased risk of exposure to HIV. They are likewise able to spread HIV  to many other partners..._
_The redefinition of prostitution as 'commercial sex work' is just  an attempt to legitimize sex trafficking. It should come as no surprise  the ACLU and Planned Parenthood have signed on. While both groups are  considered 'pro-woman', it is odd that they support an industry of  flagrant abuse of women..._
_There are a multitude of studies to show the high level of abuse  that prostitutes suffer. Women are literally bought and sold as  property. The incidence of drug addiction is high among women, partially  explaining why they became prostitutes to begin with._
_The argument for legalization goes something like this.  Prostitution will happen anyway but legalization and regulation will  help stem the abuses. The argument has 50,000 foot appeal. Using the  same logic, slavery (which still exists in many places) should be  legalized so underground slaves can be given some measure of human  rights. The fact that the ACLU and the bevy of left-wing international  groups don't argue for the legalization of slavery shows the logical  inconsistency of their position._
_Further, the legalization of abortion has shown that it lead to a  radical increase in abortion. The legalization will lead to an untold  number of women being forced into sex slavery. Make no mistake, women  will be forced into commercial sex work in greater numbers if it were  legalized."_


				 					Jan. 2, 2007					 - John Bambenek 
	
​ 			 			 			Thomas  Kleine-Brockhoff, Senior Director at the German Marshall Fund of the  United States, wrote in his Jan. 29, 2007 article "Legalization Opens  Criminal Floodgates" posted on the PostGlobal website:
_"My home  country of Germany is one of the few nations to legalize prostitution.  Proponents of legalization argue that all attempts to deal with the sex  business have failed and the only option left untried is  decriminalization..._
_Legalized prostitution creates the same problems that legalized  marijuana does. While prostitution is legal, forced prostitution is not.  The latter occurs, and the new German law unintentionally makes it  harder to hunt down human traffickers, especially from Eastern Europe  and Africa. Similarly, it is harder to combat under-aged prostitution.  With legalized marijuana and prostitution, Amsterdam became a magnet for  human traffickers, drug traders and petty criminals. This is not the  world legalization’s proponents envisioned, but it happened."_


				 					Jan. 29, 2007					 - Thomas Kleine-Brockhoff 
	
​ 			 			 			The US  Department of State, wrote in its Nov. 24, 2004 article "The Link  Between Prostitution and Sex Trafficking" provided on its website:
_"The  U.S. Government adopted a strong position against legalized prostitution  in a December 2002 National Security Presidential Directive based on  evidence that prostitution is inherently harmful and dehumanizing, and  fuels trafficking in persons, a form of modern-day slavery. Prostitution  and related activities—including pimping and patronizing or maintaining  brothels—fuel the growth of modern-day slavery by providing a façade  behind which traffickers for sexual exploitation operate._
_Where prostitution is legalized or tolerated, there is a greater  demand for human trafficking victims and nearly always an increase in  the number of women and children trafficked into commercial sex  slavery..._
_Few activities are as brutal and damaging to people as  prostitution. Field research in nine countries concluded that 60-75  percent of women in prostitution were raped, 70-95 percent were  physically assaulted, and 68 percent met the criteria for post traumatic  stress disorder in the same range as treatment-seeking combat veterans  and victims of state-organized torture.  Beyond this shocking abuse, the  public health implications of prostitution are devastating and include a  myriad of serious and fatal diseases, including HIV/AIDS..._
_State attempts to regulate prostitution by introducing medical  check-ups or licenses don’t address the core problem: the routine abuse  and violence that form the prostitution experience and brutally  victimize those caught in its netherworld. Prostitution leaves women and  children physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually devastated.  Recovery takes years, even decades—often, the damage can never be  undone."_


				 					Nov. 24, 2004					 - US Department of State 
	
​ 			 			 			Norma Hotaling,  Founder and Executive Director of Standing Against Global Exploitation  (SAGE) Project and former prostitute, wrote in her prepared testimony  for the Apr. 28, 2005 hearing "Combating Trafficking in Persons: Status  Report on Domestic and International Developments," before the US House  of Representatives Committee on Financial Services Subcommittee on  Domestic and International Monetary Policy, Trade, and Technology:
_"As long  as we point the finger away from ourselves, away from the institutions  that blame and criminalize women and children for their own rape, sexual  abuse, trafficking and slavery, away from the men who we normalize as  ‘Johns,’ and as long as we disconnect adult prostitution and the  exploitation of children and disconnect prostitution and trafficking in  human beings for the purposes of rape and sex slavery; then we are to  blame and we have assisted in creating well-funded transnational  criminal networks – dollar by dollar."_


				 					Apr. 28, 2005					 - Norma Hotaling 
	
​ 			 			 			 			Bonnie Erbe,  Contributing Editor at _US News & World Report_, wrote in the  June 15, 2006 _Seattle Post-Intelligencer_ article "Cry Foul on  World Cup Prostitution":
_"Germany  is one of several European nations where prostitution is legal. Germany  came late to this game, in 2002. In only four years, it built up a work  force some 400,000 strong for its multibillion-dollar annual  prostitution business..._ 
_My admiration for relaxed European attitudes toward sex comes to  an excruciatingly cacophonous halt on the issue of legalized  prostitution. _
_Women's-rights activists believe the German government's  sanctioning of sex services for World Cup visitors will drive the  illicit international trade in sex trafficking. This, in turn, could  force thousands of unwilling women into prostitution. _
_Whether women enter the sex trade willingly or not, no government  should sanction prostitution. By its very nature, prostitution is  demeaning to women and encourages anti-social, some would say depraved,  behavior by men. _
_...German officials... should ban prostitution altogether."_ 


				 					June 15, 2006					 - Bonnie Erbe, JD 
	


​ 			 			 			Andrea Dworkin,  an author, activist, and former prostitute, stated in her Oct. 31, 1992  speech at the University of Michigan Law School:
_"I ask  you to think about your own bodies--if you can do so outside the world  that the pornographers have created in your minds, the flat, dead,  floating mouths and vaginas and anuses of women. I ask you to think  concretely about your own bodies used that way. How sexy is it? Is it  fun? The people who defend prostitution and pornography want you to feel  a kinky little thrill every time you think of something being stuck in a  woman. I want you to feel the delicate tissues in her body that are  being misused. I want you to feel what it feels like when it happens  over and over and over and over and over and over and over again:  because that is what prostitution is. _
_...And so, many of us are saying that prostitution is  intrinsically abusive. Let me be clear. I am talking to you about  prostitution per se, without more violence, without extra violence,  without a woman being hit, without a woman being pushed. Prostitution in  and of itself is an abuse of a woman's body. Those of us who say this  are accused of being simple-minded. But prostitution is very simple. And  if you are not simple-minded, you will never understand it. The more  complex you manage to be, the further away from the reality you will  be--the safer you will be, the happier you will be, the more fun you  will have discussing the issue of prostitution. In prostitution, no  woman stays whole."_ 


				 					Oct. 31, 1992					 - Andrea Dworkin 
	
​ 			 			 			Anastasia  Volkonsky, JD, former Executive Director, Colorado Lawyers for the Arts  (CoLA), wrote in the Feb. 27, 1995 _Insight on the News_ article  "Legalizing the 'Profession' Would Sanction the Abuse":
_"Behind  the facade of a regulated industry, brothel prostitutes in Nevada are  captive in conditions analogous to slavery. Women often are procured for  the brothels from other areas by pimps who dump them at the house in  order to collect the referral fee. Women report working in shifts  commonly as long as 12 hours, even when ill, menstruating or pregnant,  with no right to refuse a customer who has requested them or to refuse  the sexual act for which he has paid. The dozen or so prostitutes I  interviewed said they are expected to pay the brothel room and board and  a percentage of their earnings -- sometimes up to 50 percent. They also  must pay for mandatory extras such as medical exams, assigned clothing  and fines incurred for breaking house rules. And, contrary to the common  claim that the brothel will protect women from the dangerous, crazy  clients on the streets, rapes and assaults by customers are covered up  by the management."_


				 					Feb. 27, 1995					 - Anastasia Volkonsky, JD 
	


​ 			 			 			Gunilla Ekberg,  Special Adviser to the Swedish Division for Gender Equality in the  Ministry of Industry, Employment, and Communications, wrote in the  article "The Swedish Law That Prohibits the Purchase of Sexual Services:  Best Practices for Prevention of Prostitution and Trafficking in Human  Beings" published in the Oct. 2004 issue of _Violence Against Women_:
_"In  Sweden, prostitution is officially acknowledged as a form of male sexual  violence against women and children. One of the cornerstones of Swedish  policies against prostitution and trafficking in human beings is the  focus on the root cause, the recognition that without men’s demand for  and use of women and girls for sexual exploitation, the global  prostitution industry would not be able flourish and expand. _
_Prostitution is a serious problem that is harmful, in particular,  not only to the prostituted woman or child but also to society at  large. Therefore, prostituted women and children are seen as victims of  male violence who do not risk legal penalties. Instead, they have a  right to assistance to escape prostitution."_ 


				 					Oct. 2004					 - Gunilla Ekberg 
	


​ 			 			 			Michael  Horowitz, LLB, Senior Fellow at the Hudson Institute, in the article  "Right Abolitionism" published in the Dec. 2005 - Jan. 2006 issue of _The  American Spectator_:
_"...Historians  will also note the attacks on the Bush administration and Miller _[Ambassador  John R. Miller]_ from a shrill claque of academic feminists and  their radical chic allies -- and by doing so these historians will  understand the reasons for the declining state of the 21st-century  American left. They will see in the critics' attacks liberal utopianism  at its worst -- the belief that until all poverty and all exploitation  of the weak has ended, targeted efforts 'merely' to ameliorate such  'symptoms' as the mafia-conducted destruction of millions of girls and  women in the sex trade are distractions from the need to eliminate 'root  causes.' Historians will see in these attacks rhetoric and ideology  unhinged from reality, a worship of materialist goals, contempt for  traditional values, and a moral stinginess that denies credit for good  work to any but political allies._ 
_...The critics endorse the big lie of Pretty Woman and act as if  the Julia Roberts character exists beyond Hollywood. The critics  routinely seek 'sex worker unions,' government-trafficker condom  distribution partnerships, and government regulation -- as if written  contracts or OSHA _[US Department of Labor Occupational Safety and  Health Administration]_-mandated ergonomic mattresses could ever  trump the ability of pimps to exploit the abused and psychologically  manipulable runaway girls they prey upon." _


				 					Dec. 2005 - Jan. 2006					 - Michael Horowitz, LLB 
	


​ 			 			 			Theodore  Dalrymple, a writer and retired physician, wrote in the Feb. 3, 2005 _City  Journal_ article "Welfare-to-Work's New Thrust":
_"A few  years ago, prostitutes disappeared from the pages of medical journals;  they returned as 'sex workers.' Nor did they work in prostitution any  more: they were employees in the 'sex industry.' Presumably, orgasms are  now a consumer product just like any other. As for pimps, the correct  term is probably: 'brief sexual liaison coordinators.' _
_The editors who decided on the new terminology almost certainly  felt, and probably still do feel, a warm glow of self-satisfaction (one  of the few emotions than never lets you down). How they must have prided  themselves on their broadmindedness, as they strove to reduce the  small-minded stigma traditionally attached to offering sexual services  in return for money! How morally brave and daring they must have felt,  to fly so boldly in the face of two millennia of unthinking  condemnation! _
_...The idea of the state coercing its population into  prostitution is, of course, repellent. Even the most liberal of liberals  would probably agree with that. This means that there is after all a  moral difference between prostitution and washing dishes in the local  restaurant or stacking supermarket shelves. And that prostitution is  both age-old and ineradicable does not make it any less degrading to all  concerned."_ 


				 					Feb. 3, 2005					 - Theodore Dalrymple 
	


​ 			 			 			Charles H.  Ramsey, former Police Chief of Washington, DC, stated in the May 11,  1999 interview "Q&A with Charles H. Ramsey" on _Levey Live_ (a  weekly live online discussion) on _Washington Post_ with Bob Levey:
_"I  believe that two crimes make a city look totally out of control. That's  open prostitution and open air drug trafficking. I was appalled at the  blatant prostitution taking place in the District and I have been  determined to put an end to it. You're right that often times a problem  is simply displaced when strong enforcement action is taken, that's to  be expected, actually. The key is to shift resources to the new location  and continue to take strong enforcement action wherever the problem  crops up. Eventually, people engaged in this kind of activity either  stop or leave the area altogether."_


				 					May 11, 1999					 - Charles H. Ramsey 
	
​ 			 			 			Jeffrey J.  Barrows, DO, Health Consultant on Human Trafficking for the Christian  Medical Association, wrote in the Sep. 9, 2005 article "HIV and  Prostitution: What's the Answer?" published on the Center for Bioethics  Human Dignity website:
_"Even if  a prostitute is being tested every week for HIV, she will test negative  for at least the first 4-6 weeks and possibly the first 12 weeks after  being infected. If we assume that he or she takes only 4 weeks to become  positive, because there is an additional lag time of 1-2 weeks to get  the results back, there will be at best a window period of 6 weeks for a  prostitute. The average prostitute services between 10-15 clients per  day. This means that while the test is becoming positive and the results  are becoming known, that prostitute may expose up to 630 clients to  HIV. This is under the best of circumstances with testing every week and  a four-week window period. It also assumes that the prostitute will  quit working as soon as he or she finds out the test is HIV positive,  which is highly unlikely. This is not the best approach for actually  reducing harm. Instead, in order to slow the global spread of HIV/AIDS  we should focus our efforts on abolishing prostitution."_


				 					Sep. 9, 2005					 - Jeffrey J.  Barrows, DO 
	


​ 			 			 			Lisa Thompson,  Liaison for the Abolition of Sexual Trafficking for the United States  Salvation Army, stated in her Jan. 26, 2007 phone interview with  ProCon.org:
_"We need  to eliminate the purchase of commercial sex. That is no easy task.  People tell me all the time that prostitution has been around forever  and you can't stop this. I think that's baloney. There are a lot of  things that have been around forever but if we provide the right  evidence and provide positive motivation and use our laws effectively  people's behaviors can change and we can change people's minds…_
_I'm opposed to anything that would legalize the purchasing of sex  by buyers. I'm opposed to pimping being legal. I'm opposed to brothel  keeping being legal. I think we need to absolutely keep as many barriers  up as possible. We want to create a sense that buying sex from a woman  is socially unacceptable and legally unacceptable…_
_Prostitution is a despairing, horrible condition for any women  and girl who should end up there. We need to get more and better  information out to the public about the harms of prostitution:  mortality, homicide, suicide, sexually transmitted diseases, violence,  beatings, shootings, stabbings, rape… It is no life for anyone."_ 


				 					Jan. 26, 2007					 - Lisa Thompson 
	
​ 			 			 			Joseph Parker,  Clinical Director of the Lola Greene Baldwin Foundation, wrote in the  article "How Prostitution Works" posted on the Lola Greene Baldwin  Foundation website (accessed Jan. 19, 2009):
_"People  who have had luckier lives, as well as those who profit from the sex  industry in some way, frequently refer to prostitution and pornography  as 'victim-less crimes'. They point to a tiny fraction of sex workers  who actually might be involved by choice. They selectively read history  to find some tiny minority, somewhere, at some time, who gained  something in the sex business._
_The very selectiveness of their attention indicates that, on some  level, they know that for almost everyone, involvement in the sex  industry is a terrible misfortune._
_As many an old cop will say, 'Anyone who thinks prostitution is a  victimless crime, hasn’t seen it up close.'"_


				 					Jan. 19, 2009					 - Joseph Parker 
	
​ 			 			 			S.M. Berg,  Co-Founder of the Sexual Health Activist Group (SHAG), wrote in the  article "Hey, Progressives! Cathouse Got Your Tongue?" in the July 2006 _Portland  Alliance_:
_"__Instead of railing against the increasing  exploitation of females internationally, mainstream American feminists  have mostly chosen to ignore the severe and tragic harms of  prostitution. Why the wall of silence regarding men’s legitimized sense  of entitlement to demand sex anytime, any way they want it, from mostly  minority and poverty-stricken women?_
_...Rejecting prostitution is consistent with the feminist belief  that men do not have a right to control women’s sexuality ever, but too  many feminist women still can't say so while standing tall and without  apologizing for believing it.__"_ 


				 					July 2006					 - S.M. Berg 
	
​ 			 			 			Mary Anne  Layden, PhD, Co-Director of the Sexual Trauma and Psychopathology  Program at the Center for Cognitive Therapy at the University of  Pennsylvania, was quoted as having stated in the Aug. 10, 2005 _The  Australian_ article "Porn Fuels Prostitution":
_"Internet  pornography and the legalisation of prostitution have driven up demand  through a set of beliefs that imply that this behaviour is normal,  acceptable, common and doesn't hurt anyone so the person has permission  to continue to behave in that way..._
_There  are not enough women in Australia who have been raped as a child, are  homeless, or have a drug addiction, to be prostitutes, because in  reality these are the women who end up in this situation. In this case,  you have to deceive or kidnap women and children from other countries,  take their passport, beat them up and put them into sex slavery."_ 


				 					Aug. 10, 2005					 - Mary Anne Layden, PhD 
	


​ 			 			 			 			In _US v.  Bitty_ (decided Feb. 24, 1908), the US Supreme Court, in a decision  written by then Associate Justice John Marshall Harlan:
_"There  can be no doubt as to what class was aimed at by the clause forbidding  the importation of alien women for purposes of 'prostitution.' It refers  to women who, for hire or without hire, offer their bodies to  indiscriminate intercourse with men. The lives and example of such  persons are in hostility to 'the idea of the family as consisting in and  springing from the union for life of one man and one woman in the holy  estate of matrimony; the sure foundation of all that is stable and noble  in our civilization; the best guaranty of that reverent morality which  is the source of all beneficent progress in social and political  improvement.'"_


				 					Feb. 24, 1908					 - U.S. v. Bitty  (12 KB) 
	





​ 			 			 			Melissa Farley,  PhD, Founding Director of the Prostitution Research and Education, wrote  in the article "Bad for the Body, Bad for the Heart" published in the  Oct. 2004 _Violence Against Women_:
_"Legal  sex businesses provide locations where sexual harassment, sexual  exploitation, and violence against women are perpetrated with impunity.  State-sponsored prostitution endangers all women and children in that  acts of sexual predation are normalized — acts ranging from the  seemingly banal (breast massage) to the lethal (snuff prostitution that  includes filming of actual murders of real women and children)... _
_Johns who buy women, groups promoting legalized prostitution, and  governments that support state-sponsored sex industries comprise a  tripartite partnership that endangers all women. These groups collude in  denying the everyday violence and subsequent health dangers to those in  prostitution."_ 


				 					Oct. 2004					 - Melissa Farley, PhD 
	


​ 			 			 			Dave Quist, MPA,  Executive Director of the Institute of Marriage and Family Canada  (IMFC), was quoted as having stated in the July 13, 2006  LifeSiteNews.com article "National Post Advocating Legalization of  Prostitution Again":
_"The  concept that 'mom's job' is having sex with strangers sets the wrong  tone for family life. It hurts the woman, it hurts the children; that is  an exploitative situation. If prostitution is legal it affords men the  'excuse' to go find sex outside of marriage, when things in the marriage  are difficult. That does nothing to enhance the relationship between a  man and a woman. _
_[Prostitution] runs opposite to what relationships are supposed  to be. Intimacy and love are not involved; it's just a purely physical  act. It lowers both people to the lowest common denominator."_ 


				 					July 13, 2006					 - Dave Quist 
	
​ 			 			 			Ronald Reagan,  40th President of the United States and interviewed as former Governor  of California (Jan. 1967-Jan. 1975) at the time of the quotation, was  quoted as having stated in the July 1975 _Reason Magazine_ article  "Inside Ronald Reagan":
_"Prostitution  has been listed as a nonvictim crime. Well, is anyone naive enough to  believe that prostitution just depends on willing employees coming in  and saying that's the occupation they want to practice? It doesn't._
_...Talk to law enforcement people about the seamy side of how the  recruiting is done, including what in an earlier day was called the  white slave traffic - and you will find that the recruiting for  prostitution is not one of just taking an ad in the paper and saying  come be a prostitute and letting someone walk in willingly." _


​


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## KelJu (Nov 9, 2010)

Bah, this thread is full of a whole lot of cut and paste with no original thought. People died before alcohol prohibition and people died after, but a tremendous amount of other illegal activity was created during the prohibition. Well prostitution isn't baking cookies. The lifestyle can be dangerous, but there are many areas that have proven conclusively that both clients and servers in the industry are safer when organized and regulated.

There are no direct victims in a prostitution deal. It is not a myth is is a fact. There are indirect victims, but smoking a cigarettes involve indirect victims, too. Putting gas in your car has indirect victims, so just toss that lame ass argument out the door please.   

It is a slippery slope. It isn't until something that you do that indirectly affects Joe Blow is made illegal that you realize that people should be allowed to hurt themselves for the sake of liberty. This is all painfully aware to everyone here when we stop to consider what a huge fucking pain in the ass getting gear is.


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## MDR (Nov 9, 2010)

KelJu said:


> Bah, this thread is full of a whole lot of cut and paste with no original thought. People died before alcohol prohibition and people died after, but a tremendous amount of other illegal activity was created during the prohibition. Well prostitution isn't baking cookies. The lifestyle can be dangerous, but there are many areas that have proven conclusively that both clients and servers in the industry are safer when organized and regulated.
> 
> There are no direct victims in a prostitution deal. It is not a myth is is a fact. There are indirect victims, but smoking a cigarettes involve indirect victims, too. Putting gas in your car has indirect victims, so just toss that lame ass argument out the door please.
> 
> It is a slippery slope. It isn't until something that you do that indirectly affects Joe Blow is made illegal that you realize that people should be allowed to hurt themselves for the sake of liberty. This is all painfully aware to everyone here when we stop to consider what a huge fucking pain in the ass getting gear is.



Of course there are direct victims in a prostitution "deal".  I back up my arguments with the arguments of dozens of others, you just claim something to be a fact when it is obviously false.  If you took the time to read what I posted, you would realize that legalization does not work, and it only serves to make things worse.  Organization and regulation only serves to make the problem more widespread, and make human trafficking and indentured servitude more likely.  We have laws in this country against rape and assault for a reason.  Changing the name to prostitution does not change the reality of the situation.  Talk about your argument having no original thought.  Believe what you want to believe, but the legalization of prostitution does nothing to solve the variety of inherent problems that come with prostitution, legal or not.


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## KelJu (Nov 9, 2010)

MDR said:


> Of course there are direct victims in a prostitution "deal".  I back up my arguments with the arguments of dozens of others, you just claim something to be a fact when it is obviously false.  If you took the time to read what I posted, you would realize that legalization does not work, and it only serves to make things worse.  Organization and regulation only serves to make the problem more widespread, and make human trafficking and indentured servitude more likely.  We have laws in this country against rape and assault for a reason.  Changing the name to prostitution does not change the reality of the situation.  Talk about your argument having no original thought.  Believe what you want to believe, but the legalization of prostitution does nothing to solve the variety of inherent problems that come with prostitution, legal or not.





Stop it, just for the love of god, stop it. There are no direct victims in a prostitution deal. End of discussion. It has nothing to do with belief, it is the definition of the act itself. There is no other way to explain this, so I can't help it if you can't see that. Two consenting adults agreeing to sexual relations for money is prostitution, and in that deal exist no direct victims. 

A prostitute becomes a direct victim when they are assaulted, kidnapped, or raped. There are criminal laws against all of those situations which exist with or without  prostitution. I know this to be a fact because if someone murders a prostitute, they charge that person with murder, not solicitation of prostitution. 

Seriously, I could throw out a 100 analogies here. What part of direct victim don't you understand? The writer of that rhetoric you posted doesn't understand what a direct victim is either. Porn is legal, and is between two consenting adults for money. There is no difference except one is performed in front of a camera. Who is the direct victim? There isn't one. 

If I go buy a 12-pack of Irish Red, am I a direct victim since I become an alcoholic and develop liver cirrhosis?  If I later choose to drive, do the kids who kid plowed over become direct victims of alcohol? No. They are the victims of my poor decision making and I would be charged with man slaughter, not drinking alcohol.


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## Muscle_Girl (Nov 9, 2010)

What percentage of prostitutes would you say are in the profession for the fun of it?

What percentage of prostitutes would you say have an orgasm while working?

What percentage of prostitutes would you say work while not intoxicated?


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## MDR (Nov 9, 2010)

You stop.  Prostitutes are victims.  End of discussion.  There can be no consent.  Your argument is full of holes, and you complain about rhetoric yet spew nothing but.  The prostitute has often been put into a position where there is no longer free choice.  Try reading again.  Maybe you can get someone else to explain the big words to you.  Don't bother responding, because I'm done with this thread.  I think on some level even you know that prostitution is far from a victimless crime. 

The National Center  for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC), in the 1992 _Female  Juvenile Prostitution: Problem and Response_ stated:
_"MYTH 2  - Prostitution is a victimless crime. __

Prostitution  creates a setting whereby crimes against men, women, and children become  a commercial enterprise.... It is an assault when he/she forces a  prostitute to engage in sadomasochistic sex scenes. When a pimp compels a  prostitute to submit to sexual demands as a condition of employment, it  is exploitation, sexual harassment, or rape -- acts that are based on  the prostitute’s compliance rather than her consent. The fact that a  pimp or customer gives money to a prostitute for submitting to these  acts does not alter the fact that child sexual abuse, rape, and/or  battery occurs; it merely redefines these crimes as prostitution."_

				 					1992					 - National Center for Missing  and Exploited Children (NCMEC) 
	
​ 			 			 			The Pontifical  Council for the Pastoral Care of the Migrants and Itinerant People, in  the June 20-21, 2006 "First International Meeting of Pastoral Care for  the Liberation of Women of the Street," wrote:
_"Who is the victim? __

She is a human  being, in many cases crying for help because selling her body on the  street is not what she would choose to do voluntarily. She is torn  apart, she is dead psychologically and spiritually. Each person has a  different story, mainly one of violence, abuse, mistrust, low self  esteem, fear, lack of opportunities. Each has experienced deep wounds  that need to be healed."_

				 					June 20-21, 2006					 - Pontifical  Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People 
	
​ 			 			 			Joseph Parker,  Clinical Director of the Lola Greene Baldwin Foundation, wrote the Aug.  4, 1998 "How Prostitution Works," which stated:
_"People who have had  luckier lives, as well as those who profit from the sex industry in some  way, frequently refer to prostitution and pornography as 'victim-less  crimes'. They point to a tiny fraction of sex workers who actually might  be involved by choice. They selectively read history to find some tiny  minority, somewhere, at some time, who gained something in the sex  business.
__
The very selectiveness of their attention indicates that, on  some level, they know that for almost everyone, involvement in the sex  industry is a terrible misfortune. 
__
As many an old cop  will say, 'Anyone who thinks prostitution is a victimless crime, hasn’t  seen it up close.'"_

				 					Aug. 4, 1998					 - Joseph Parker 
	
​ 			 			 			Andrew Arena,  JD, Special Agent in Charge of Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in  Detroit, was quoted in the Aug. 16, 2006 FBI press release "Halting  Human Trafficking: 31 Arrests in Major Prostitution Ring" as having  said:
_"Illegal prostitution is  not a victimless crime. The FBI is part of the apparatus in place to  protect people, sometimes even from their own poor choices."_

				 					Aug. 16, 2006					 - Andrew Arena, JD


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## KelJu (Nov 9, 2010)

Stop posting that shit. Stop it. No, bad dog! You can't change the meaning of words and ideas to serve an argument. That sir, is rhetoric, and I shit on rhetoric. I can't help it that you and that author of that crap can't quite grasps words. Here is a short tutorial on the difference between crimes that directly or indirectly affect people. 

Bob mugs Bill for his wallet and punches him in the face. Bill is now a direct victum of assault and theft. Sally is a prostitute in a bad neighborhood and provides sexual service to Bill. Sally is satisfied with the deal and goes off to buy crack from Jim. Bill is enabling Sally's habit and lifestyle by soliciting sex and therefor Sally is an indirect victim of Bill's vice. Sally is also an indirect victim of Jim's drug dealing. Bob also buys crack from Jim, Sally becomes an indirect victim of Jim's drug habit. Sally spent all of the money she made on crack, and now has none to give to Bob. Bob pimp slaps Sally and roughs her up. Sally is now a direct victim of Bob's assault.  


Do you get it? 

I don't disagree for a second that some hookers become victims. I don't disagree that it is a terrible existence for most. In many underdeveloped nations, it is a downright heartbreaking situation with kidnapped children being forced into a life of sexual slavery and women forced into the life against their will. But prostitution isn't the crime. Kidnapping is the crime. Assault is the crime. Rape is the crime. 

Every vice on the planet has a massive fallout of indirect victims. Alcohol, tobacco, prescription medications, sex, religion, sports, love, bad food, relationships, ect ect ect. You know, all of the stuff that makes life worth living in the first place. Every vice has a massive fallout of indirect victims. You want to outlaw Catholicism because it lead to boatloads of kids getting fucked? How about banning steroids and OTC stimulants like caffeine and ephedra, because some dumb kid takes a bunch of dbol and No-Explode and his heart explodes on the football field. Next we might as well shutdown every fast food joint in America, because millions of fatass fucking kids will die of diabetes at an early age only after sucking every dime out of America's medical system trying to keep these fat fucks alive. 

Tell me you understand what I am saying here. 

When does it stop? This slippery slope of legislating laws based on the indirect consequences is going to lead to a government mandated nap time. I say no fucking way! I'll do what I want when I want. In the meantime, I am a pretty damn productive citizen. I work hard, and pay those shitty taxes. People like me in the working class are indirectly keeping this country going. What purpose does locking me up do? Paying for a blow job has relatively low consequences, but stopping someone's production, and then on top of it all,  losing twice what their production was to house that person in jail while ruining their life in jail in the process is fucking retarded.


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## MDR (Nov 9, 2010)

Kelju, you work so hard at being an arrogant, pedantic little prick.  Do you really enjoy spewing all this hate and venom?  Thank you for the lesson on word meaning.  I'm sure the professor I quoted would be equally grateful for your feedback.  I disagree with you completely, in every possible way, but more than that I hope you are able to find some happiness in your obviously tortured life.  Good luck with your anger issues, and know that their are mental health professionals out there who can help you overcome at least some of your many, many issues.  I truly hope you are able to find some help.  Best of luck to you.


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## KelJu (Nov 10, 2010)

MDR said:


> Kelju, you work so hard at being an arrogant, pedantic little prick.  Do you really enjoy spewing all this hate and venom?  Thank you for the lesson on word meaning.  I'm sure the professor I quoted would be equally grateful for your feedback.  I disagree with you completely, in every possible way, but more than that I hope you are able to find some happiness in your obviously tortured life.  Good luck with your anger issues, and know that their are mental health professionals out there who can help you overcome at least some of your many, many issues.  I truly hope you are able to find some help.  Best of luck to you.



Actually, I don't work hard at all at being an arrogant pedantic prick. It is who I am, and fighting it takes too much energy. Calling me a woman hater is somewhat inaccurate, also. I hate people, and that is fundamentally different. 

Your patronizing tone means diddly shit. Everyone who knows me knows I am fucked up, but that is irrelevant to the point which is the argument at hand. You are raping the English language and you are raping the rules of logical reasoning to boost your pathetic ego about what a great guy you are for being so sympathetic to all the whores of the world. 

Compassion without wisdom is as useful as a square tire. The writer of that shit you posted is appealing to the people out there who desperately need to pat themselves on the back for being such good and caring people. Your heart might be in the right place, but your argument is weak.


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## MDR (Nov 10, 2010)

Keep taking your meds Kelju, I'm sure you'll find the right combo one of these days.  Fun having you around.  You are completely full of shit, but always good for a laugh.


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## blergs. (Nov 10, 2010)

yes it should.
where I live it is legal and you RARLY see any prostituts out, most do it out of there home and i cant even pinpoint them. its safter for them and keeps them off the streets = kids dont see it and less violencs in the allyways ect.

how about we worry about the crack and meth heads, and if theprostituts are makeing money for theses drugs as some im sure are then there first #1 a junky and then #2 a prostitut so prostituting is NOT there or ower main consern.


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## KelJu (Nov 10, 2010)

MDR said:


> Keep taking your meds Kelju, I'm sure you'll find the right combo one of these days.  Fun having you around.  You are completely full of shit, but always good for a laugh.



I am drug free ATM other than anti-psychotics, which is probably why I want to punch random strangers on the street.


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## bio-chem (Nov 10, 2010)

KelJu said:


> I am drug free ATM other than anti-psychotics, which is probably why I want to punch random strangers on the street.



One day I'm buying you a beer. no joke


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## IronAddict (Nov 10, 2010)

I say we all smoke a blunt, drink some beers, then go get a prostitute!


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## REDDOG309 (Nov 10, 2010)

And rippers and xannies for good measure


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## GearsMcGilf (Nov 10, 2010)

I've never really been into hookers. But, as far as these young girls being victims, I say fuck'em. Those junkie teen girls are a dime a dozen IMO and about as valuable as a disposable ash tray.  I'd rather them be out selling ass on the street for a pimp that beats the shit outta them than living on welfare while cranking out meth babies at the taxpayers' expense. At least this way, they're performing a service and paying their own way. Just my 2ccs.


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## KelJu (Nov 10, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> I've never really been into hookers. But, as far as these young girls being victims, I say fuck'em. Those junkie teen girls are a dime a dozen IMO and about as valuable as a disposable ash tray.  I'd rather them be out selling ass on the street for a pimp that beats the shit outta them than living on welfare while cranking out meth babies at the taxpayers' expense. At least this way, they're performing a service and paying their own way. Just my 2ccs.



No dude, they don't exactly file W-2s. They are on welfare on top of prostituting.


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## tyciol (Dec 7, 2010)

Yes, so long as we judge someone informed enough to consent to a sexual act, I see no reason why we should forbid the sale of it. I do think we should regulate it for public safety to some degree like requiring certification and disease testing to give customers safety options.

Another issue is that since men can't abort accidental pregnancies, females should be obligated to support any children they give birth to unless a male voluntarily takes on that responsibility. Rapists should pay all medical fees associated with abortion (then go directly to jail).



MDR said:


> Not really.  Again, anyone who argues that prostitution is a victimless crime is clearly not seeing reality.  As a rule, normal, healthy, well-adjusted individuals do not choose to become prostitutes.  I've never understood why anyone would want to have sex with someone for money.  Sounds about as much fun to me as moving furniture.


I've often thought about doing it, if I could make a better hourly wage with less taxing and stressful labour. It's just not an option due to it being illegal (plus I'm probably not hot enough to compete).

This statement involves declarations and minimizations of others' character which seems unjustified. If someone wanted to do this work, you're condemning them as abnormal, unhealthy, maladjusted and unfun.

Furthermore, moving furniture is legal, and some people may actually enjoy that line of work.




MDR said:


> The National Center  for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC), in the 1992 _Female  Juvenile Prostitution: Problem and Response_ stated:
> _"MYTH 2  - Prostitution is a victimless crime. __
> 
> Prostitution  creates a setting whereby crimes against men, women, and children become  a commercial enterprise.... It is an assault when he/she forces a  prostitute to engage in sadomasochistic sex scenes. When a pimp compels a  prostitute to submit to sexual demands as a condition of employment, it  is exploitation, sexual harassment, or rape -- acts that are based on  the prostitute’s compliance rather than her consent. The fact that a  pimp or customer gives money to a prostitute for submitting to these  acts does not alter the fact that child sexual abuse, rape, and/or  battery occurs; it merely redefines these crimes as prostitution."_
> ...


This is slavery masked as prostitution, so what is being protested actually is not prostitution. Protesting it on this grounds would be like protesting working at McDonalds if a crazy manager kidnapped me and chained me to a grill in the back and threatened to whip me if I didn't flip patties and then paid me a paltry sum. That's not the type of employment legitimate prostitution, actual consensual sex work, is supposed to be. Like any kind of employment we should find ways to prevent this kind of exploitation.

Obviously people judged as minors inadequately informed to make sexual choices would not be able to work in that field, any more than we would give a driver's license to one. I wouldn't bar driving for adults if a minor illegally drove and hurt themselves in a car crash...




MDR said:


> The Pontifical  Council for the Pastoral Care of the Migrants and Itinerant People, in  the June 20-21, 2006 "First International Meeting of Pastoral Care for  the Liberation of Women of the Street," wrote:
> _"Who is the victim? __
> 
> She is a human  being, in many cases crying for help because selling her body on the  street is not what she would choose to do voluntarily. She is torn  apart, she is dead psychologically and spiritually. Each person has a  different story, mainly one of violence, abuse, mistrust, low self  esteem, fear, lack of opportunities. Each has experienced deep wounds  that need to be healed."_
> ...


Pastoral care sounds religious in nature. "Spiritually dead" as well. Clearly this is a biased review. It also serves to create the very problem it reports. If you repeat to someone enough that they are "dead inside" they may eventually feel that way. These people are not dead, regardless of whether people tell them they are. Many may experience wounds, psychological stress, but that doesn't mean everyone in the occupation does, at least not moreso than every human experiences these things to some degree in occupations of varying difficulty or life in general.



MDR said:


> Joseph Parker,  Clinical Director of the Lola Greene Baldwin Foundation, wrote the Aug.  4, 1998 "How Prostitution Works," which stated:
> _"People who have had  luckier lives, as well as those who profit from the sex industry in some  way, frequently refer to prostitution and pornography as 'victim-less  crimes'. They point to a tiny fraction of sex workers who actually might  be involved by choice. They selectively read history to find some tiny  minority, somewhere, at some time, who gained something in the sex  business.
> __
> The very selectiveness of their attention indicates that, on  some level, they know that for almost everyone, involvement in the sex  industry is a terrible misfortune.
> ...


It's not a minority that gains something from prostitution: every prostitute gains something from it. That something is money. Those who do not are not prostitutes, they are sex slaves and that's not something being promoted.

All prostitutes are involved by choice. That's because if you do not choose it, it is not prostitution, it is rape. Rape and slavery are not prostitution. I don't believe anyone infers that this is a dream occupation. Most people would rather not work at all. Most concede to work in something to pay the bills and survive, and they often choose some occupations over others they are unable to do.



MDR said:


> Andrew Arena,  JD, Special Agent in Charge of Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in  Detroit, was quoted in the Aug. 16, 2006 FBI press release "Halting  Human Trafficking: 31 Arrests in Major Prostitution Ring" as having  said:
> _"Illegal prostitution is  not a victimless crime. The FBI is part of the apparatus in place to  protect people, sometimes even from their own poor choices."_
> 
> Aug. 16, 2006                     - Andrew Arena, JD​


"Protecting from poor choices" is a rather slippery slope to oppressing free will. In fact, interceding on someone's right to choose is exactly that, oppression. I can see some merit in a degree of that (like intervening with heroin addicts whose mental competence is compromised) but if done to excess it becomes especially worrisome since we risk intervening on the choices of informed, sane, clear-minded individuals to make choices in what they do.



MDR said:


> No. It should stay illegal and the laws should be inforced.  Anyone who states that prostitution is a victimless crime just doesn't have a clue.


This seems to imply that sex is something inherently victimizing?



MDR said:


> Veronica Monet,  prostitute and author, in a Mar. 26, 2006 interview on the Suicide Girls  website, said:_"Most of  the brothels do not care about the women who work for them. They care  about the clients who are paying them. I don't like legalized brothels. I  have nothing against the women that are working in this system but the  women who work in legal strip clubs and legal brothels do not benefit  from any kind of labor rights."_
> 
> Mar. 26, 2006                     ​Anastasia  Volkonsky, JD, Founder and former Project Director of Prevention,  Referral, Outreach, Mentoring, and Intervention to End Sexual  Exploitation (PROMISE), in the Feb. 27, 1995 _Insight on the News_  article "Legalization the 'Profession' Would Sanction the Abuse," wrote:_"Behind the  facade of a regulated industry, brothel prostitutes in Nevada are  captive in conditions analogous to slavery. Women often are procured for the brothels from other areas by pimps who dump them at the house in  order to collect the referral fee. Women report working in shifts  commonly as long as 12 hours, even when ill, menstruating or pregnant,  with no right to refuse a customer who has requested them or to refuse  the sexual act for which he has paid. The dozen or so prostitutes I  interviewed said they are expected to pay the brothel room and board and  a percentage of their earnings -- sometimes up to 50 percent. They also  must pay for mandatory extras such as medical exams, assigned clothing  and fines incurred for breaking house rules. And, contrary to the common  claim that the brothel will protect women from the dangerous, crazy  clients on the streets, rapes and assaults by customers are covered up  by the management."_
> 
> Feb. 27, 1995                     ​                                                    Sounds like a great system to me.


These are obviously bad systems, but that's a problem with how they are regulated, not a problem with prostitution as an occupation. Problems like this have existed in many fields of work in the past. They improve as people recognize problems, governments regulate them better, workers unionize, etc.



MDR said:


> The key word here Prince is consent.  Prostitution does not include consent.


Prostitution must include consent, where in the etymological study of the word do you get the impression it includes, much less focuses on, involuntary sex? There's a huge difference between prostitution, the renting of sex slaves, or rape compensation.



MDR said:


> Just because someone is paid does not take away the fact that they are often being violated, both physically and emotionally.


What about the engage of money for permission to have sex turns it into an emotional and physical violation?



MDR said:


> NO ONE has the right to force someone into sex for money.


You can't force someone to do something with money, you force someone to do something with fear or force. Convincing someone to do something for money is called payment, salary. If someone pays me to carry their groceries, I'm not being forced to carry them, I'm choosing to do it for compensation.



MDR said:


> This is not about freedom of choice.  It is about basic human respect.


Is it impossible to respect a sex worker? I should think that you think highly enough of their skills to compensate them shows a higher respect for it.



MDR said:


> I find prostitution disgusting and immoral, and a violation of basic human decency and dignity.


So, is a prostitute who is happy and willing to do such work indecent and lacking dignity?



MDR said:


> Society has an obligation to protect its most vulnerable members.


This depends on the source of perceived obligation. I think protecting vulnerable members is a great idea, makes me feel bubbly inside and all that, but that's more of a moral choice. Obligation sounds involuntary, like how we're obligated to do stuff we'd rather not, and protecting others is a joy for many.

Many get into this due to poverty, and outlawing prostitution does not fix the problem of poverty. If you fix that by providing opportunities to become educated, to find other fields of work, then you give prostitutes options to work in other fields if they desire to. This would actually fix the issue of helping those who do not want to work in the field while also not interfering with the free choice of those that still wish to.



MDR said:


> Prostitutes have often gone through a long history of sexual molestation and rape before progressing to the point of becoming prostitutes.


This is true. Molestation and rape are bad and we should combat that. Prostitution is not molestation or rape.



MDR said:


> Little girls don't dream of growing up and fucking people for money.  These are wounded and damaged people, often hopelessly addicted and without viable choices in their lives. Anyone capable of making an informed decision about their own lives would not get involved in the degrading and dehumanizing act of selling their bodies for money.


Since when are you a mind reader? Obviously aspiring to a lot of occupations is not in the dreams of a lot of people early on. We often acquire new dreams and occupational aspirations as we learn more about the world and the world's options. Clearly since children are not told about sex they can't possibly dream to have it, but the same can be said about other unknown things, like being a repo man or a prison guard.

I think it is stereotyping to infer that all of these people are wounded/damaged/addicted/uninformed makes you guilty of the very degradation you're saying is the problem here. With so many people making such sweeping statements insulting prostitutes, it contributes to the problem of their low self esteem.




Muscle_Girl said:


> what so many people don't realize is that it supports a HUGE human trafficking industry. Its bad enough that human trafficking is pretty much active anywhere in the world, but it has gotten so bad in Amsterdam that they are actually trying to limit and even close down window shops.
> 
> Sure, women are handed bundles of money for their services, but look beyond that. Most of the time there is a pimp in the background forcing her and coercing with a drug habit he started her on.
> 
> I think legalizing prostitution would only make a bad human trafficking issue even worse, therefore I wouldn't support it.


If the drugs are illegal and human slavery and coercion are illegal ( I believe all 3 of these are) then these are the problems, not prostitution.

These issues exist when it is outlawed. If it is legal, it allows prostitutes to more easily seek help from police, to unionize, to protect themselves and their own rights.

When we force these workers outside of the system, that is what makes them vulnerable to the abuse of pimps. Please explain how legalizing it would make the problem worse.



dave 236 said:


> I just have one question. When has declaring anything illegal stoped it from happening?


It doesn't stop things absolutely, but it does tend to decrease things from happening due to the punishment deterrent. I do think prostitution being illegal decreases the amount of prostitution, but that's besides the point here. The ultimate problem is people having sex for unfair compensation with their fees being taken by pimps, with slavery and drug abuse. These are problems that could be better dealt with by having the occupation legal and regulated and protecting worker rights, preventing exploitation and giving access to counseling, cohabitation, and getting rid of the criminal and exploitive element currently dominating it since it exists outside of the system.

Corporations would be a big step in helping combat this. For example, with the distribution of marijuana, if it were legalized, a bunch of competition would spring up, and the criminal element might try to violently suppress competition. But with corporation, honest legal workers could help hire security against violent and oppressive terrorists trying to keep their monopoly.



GearsMcGilf said:


> All women are really prostitutes anyway.  Some will give it up for $50, and others it takes a lot more.  But, at the end of the day, they're all selling it.


I disagree, some women may like sex and intimacy and pursue it on equal terms without wanting other rewards.



MDR said:


> I back up my arguments with the arguments of dozens of others


This doesn't help if these others' arguments are flawed and unsupported in and of themselves.



MDR said:


> legalization does not work, and it only serves to make things worse.  Organization and regulation only serves to make the problem more widespread, and make human trafficking and indentured servitude more likely.


Why wouldn't regulations help people suffering from indentured servitude? Legal working and proper taxation and records of income seems like they could help to deal with these problems.



MDR said:


> We have laws in this country against rape and assault for a reason.  Changing the name to prostitution does not change the reality of the situation.


Rape/assault called prostitution is not prostitution. Protesting this as a reason to outlaw actual prostitution is not valid.

That's like saying we should outlaw all sex because sometimes people rape women and say they consented. Or outlaw boxing because sometimes people have street fights and claim the other guy agreed to fight them.



MDR said:


> legalization of prostitution does nothing to solve the variety of inherent problems that come with prostitution, legal or not.


What is an inherent problem with prostitution? Keep in mind, inherent means indivisible, as in ALL cases of prostitution comes with this problem. As in, if I chose to prostitute myself to you, I would be unable to avoid this problem.



Prince said:


> fighting prostitution is about as worthwhile as the war on drugs, complete waste of time, money and resources, period.


I don't think it's right to say the war on drugs is a COMPLETE waste (though perhaps relatively) of these things. Drug abuse is a social problem that can contribute to mentally unstable individuals at risk to themselves or others, it makes sense to put some effort towards protecting society from it.


----------



## tyciol (Dec 7, 2010)

I'm going to shorten prostitute to 'whore' for ease of use and monosyllabic equality with pimps. I am familiar it is a pejorative, but to me, I have nothing against whores and I do not look down on them. It's simply ease of reference, moreso than harlot as well.



MDR said:


> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  Legalization/decriminalization                      of prostitution is a gift to pimps, traffickers and  the sex                      industry. [/FONT]
> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  Legalization/decriminalization                      of prostitution and the sex industry promotes sex  trafficking.                      [/FONT]
> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  Legalization/decriminalization                      of prostitution does not control the sex industry.It  expands                      it. [/FONT]
> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  Legalization/decriminalization                      of prostitution increases clandestine, hidden,  illegal and                      street prostitution. [/FONT]
> ...




1. Legalization allows whores more venus to escape from the oppression and abuse of pimps. If a pimp assaults a whore they can charge them with assault. While it is illegal they may be in fear of losing their livelihood by getting involved with police. Dignifying sex work dignifes sex workers as legitimate businesswomen themselves.

2. An increase in sex trafficking does not mean the legalization of prostitution caused this. Correlation is not causation. As for people exploiting the system to bring people in illegally or keep them as exploited slaves, that's something that can happen with any line of work, immigrants get exploited in a great deal of occupations not desired by citizens. This is a huge problem to be dealt with, yes, but it is not the fault of prostitution. It's just something that prostitution, like many forms of work, is not immune to.

3. Controlling an industry doesn't mean you must prevent its expansion. Expansion of industry is not an inherent problem. Conversely it is a benefit if those in it benefit from it, which is possible with proper regulation.

4. This is an argument for maintenance of privacy and anonymity with registration, not keeping it illegal. Clearly regulation won't wipe out unregulated industry, but I am skeptical that it would increase when it is lessened by those who switch to legitimate action.

5. There is no such thing as a child prostitute. Legally children can not consent to sex, and therefore they can not consent to sell it. This is a problem of illegal sex, rape and slavery. As for a reported increase: this could be due to better detection methods, or a coincidentation increase. As with 2, correlation is not causation. More reports of rape doesn't mean a place has more rape, it means it has more reports. % of reports and successful convictions varies widely in various places.

6. Pimping and violence from pimping is not intrinsic to prostitution. It is not the point of bordellos to protect from pimp violence, that is the job of the police. The whores should contact the police and press charges. Assault and battery of women is a serious social problem that exists outside of prostitution including women working in 'legitimate' occupations.

7. There is a demand for sex, not a demand for prostitution. Does prostitution increase demand for sex? Clearly legalizing something makes people imbibe in it more. The same can be said of when prohibition was repealed. The problem with this objection is it treats increase in demand as an inherent problem, which it isn't. That would be like saying "if we legalize gum, people will buy more gum!" Women aren't forced to compete by providing unsafe services they do not desire. If a woman doesn't want to have condomless or anal sex she is not obligated to do so, it is her choice, just as it would be her choice to work at McDonalds. Prostitution doesn't require men to think of women as a commodity, they may think of her as a service worker. Many may prefer active participation and cooperation in the act, otherwise using a silicone doll might be preferable. As for protesting occupations where women just lay immobile and look pretty: what is modelling?

Hiring people for a service does not obligate someone to look upon that other person as a subordinate. If I get a massage, I'm not looking at them as subordinate, rather as a skilled professional who provides something I value with competetive excellence.

8. This could be fixed by mandating health checks for clients. Workers can also obligate clients to use protection, much as they can with consensual unpaying partners they may choose to be with. This is a straw man point, regulated prostitution isn't required to leave clients untested.

9. This demeans women as irrational. Make examination of rationality a requirement for working in any field nad we get past this problem. Some people may very well sit down and decide to be a prostitute. This is cognitively distorted thinking that declares women to be mindless and irrational if they make a choice someone disagrees with. This is an unfair way to think that ignores that woman's mind and will.

One may very well say any job is a survival strategy. Few dream of working minimum wage of fast food, yet do so to survive. Why do we not bar these survival strategies? Perhaps because they allow people to survive, and by depriving people of opportunities to survive, we contribute towards their death.

If women don't feel they have other options, what does that leave them? Suicide? The solution here isn't to take away options, but to add them. Combat poverty, give women opportunities for employment, and those who don't want prostitution will choose the alternatives available which they are informed of if they are preferable.

10. I find irony that on one hand, we dismiss the choices and free will of prostitutes, yet on the other, consult their negative opinions. Which is it? Clearly it is also distorted: prostitution does not strip you of your life. You can't prostitute if you are dead. It doesn't strip you of your health, bad living habits and diseases do this. These are correlated, but they are not caused by it. 146 is also a small sample, and they do not explain how legalization would create risks/harm or what those would be. Many professions humiliate people. Fast food isn't exactly a source of pride for many. As for violence, no. Sex is not violence. If people are violent in sex, that is something else, and if a prostitute does not want to be party to it, she can withdraw her consent and end it. There is a difference between 'having to earn money by X' and 'being free to earn money by X'.

Which sex worker union do you speak of which speaks of how to keep women in prostitution? I've never heard of this. Providing alternatives to it is the job of the government and employers and social workers. They can work in tandem with sex worker unions. Indeed, I'm sure they'd be happy to be free of the unwilling competition so that their services would be more highly valued.



MDR said:


> Prostitution is about violence, control, manipulation and abuse, not sex.  Legalizing criminal acts because it is convenient to do so is not the answer to anything.  Might as well legalize assault, rape, child abuse and any and all forms of violence against women because they are all a part of the prostitution industry.  That is simply not a solution I am willing to accept.


Sex is not violence. They are separate concepts. A large reason why they invade the industry is because it is an illegal industry. We would be more able to divide these undesirable attributes which have infected it if it were in the open.


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## icekat003 (Dec 7, 2010)

Despite what the playboy station says on satallite radio about brothals, I do feel that being a prostitute would damage a woman on both a physical and psychological level.  When women act like it is not hurting them emotionally, they are lying to even themselves. You just don't sell your body for money and feel proud at the end of the day.  Legalizing it seems like it would somehow support prostitution as a positive and acceptable choice for a woman to make money.  In the end, its the woman that is hurt.  I think it should remain illegal just to send a message to the young female population that it is not acceptable, even if you are "damaged goods."


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## KelJu (Dec 7, 2010)

icekat003 said:


> Despite what the playboy station says on satallite radio about brothals, I do feel that being a prostitute would damage a woman on both a physical and psychological level.  When women act like it is not hurting them emotionally, they are lying to even themselves. You just don't sell your body for money and feel proud at the end of the day.  Legalizing it seems like it would somehow support prostitution as a positive and acceptable choice for a woman to make money.  In the end, its the woman that is hurt.  I think it should remain illegal just to send a message to the young female population that it is not acceptable, even if you are "damaged goods."



What message would that be exactly? I don't know if you are aware, but the legality of prostitution has diddly shit to do with whether a young girl grows up to be the type of person that would sell sex. 

"It's illegal you say, oh nevermind. I was going to grow up to fuck skanky guys for a living, but since it's illegal, I guess I'll go to college instead."


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## Arnold (Dec 7, 2010)

KelJu said:


> "It's illegal you say, oh nevermind. I was going to grow up to fuck skanky guys for a living, but since it's illegal, I guess I'll go to college instead."



lol


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## tyciol (Dec 8, 2010)

icekat003 said:


> Despite what the playboy station says on satallite radio about brothals, I do feel that being a prostitute would damage a woman on both a physical and psychological level.  When women act like it is not hurting them emotionally, they are lying to even themselves. You just don't sell your body for money and feel proud at the end of the day.  Legalizing it seems like it would somehow support prostitution as a positive and acceptable choice for a woman to make money.  In the end, its the woman that is hurt.  I think it should remain illegal just to send a message to the young female population that it is not acceptable, even if you are "damaged goods."



Being a whore means having sex and receiving money. Which of these two aspects do you think to be physically damaging? Which of these two things do you think to be psychologically damaging?

What about the combination somehow adds a negative aspect not inherently present in either?

Can injuries occur in any physical occupation? Yes, but that doesn't make it part of it. If a client injures you when you did not agree to be injured, it is either an accident or an assault. Both should be dealt with and reprimanded.

When a woman says something is not hurting her emotionally, it is certainly possible she is hiding her feelings. I think it wrong for someone to assert 'you are lying to yourself' simply because you think you know her mind better than she does. In that case, why don't I just go rape a woman and say "you say you don't want it, but you're just lying to yourself!". Do you see the problem with that kind of thinking? We can posit possibilities, but ultimately it is up for a person to decide how they feel and what they want. If we do this for them, we are oppressing them.

Prostitutes do not sell their bodies: they rent them, as well as renting out their services since in most cases they're not just going to lie their. This is the same as is done in probably the majority of occupations that involve some kind of physical labor.

Who are you to tell people what they are proud of, or what they should or should not feel proud about? Indeed, shaming from others may make it difficult to feel proud, but being proud of your sexuality is possible for anyone. One can feel pride in bringing joy and livelihood to others, indeed this is a big part of many health care occupations.

A message that needs to be sent here is that women are not damaged goods. Bodies can get damaged, yes, but our personalities, our minds, are quite intact. We can have traumatic issues, but we can get past them and be functional and should not look down on ourselves for having past sexual acts that others think are bad, or if others hurt us, because that is their flaw.



KelJu said:


> "It's illegal you say, oh nevermind. I was going to grow up to fuck skanky guys for a living, but since it's illegal, I guess I'll go to college instead."


Well placed sarcasm, but there is likely a merit of truth to it, in that we do pursue more difficult means of earning money if easier ones aren't available.


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## Gena Marie (Dec 22, 2010)

iloveaerobics said:


> Prostitution.....should it be legalised?
> No....I am not looking for a career change before you ask...
> 
> Just pondering about those poor women in Bradford, and the other year in Ipswich- and then going back further to the Yorkshire Ripper and Jack the Ripper and oooh....probably many many more of these women that we don't know about.
> ...



I fully think it should be legal.  If you want to pay for some thing that makes you feel good, or relieves stress, why should that be illegal?  Beer makes me feel good and I can buy it anywhere.  Our government is so backwards.  The $ they could be making by just letting us do what we want to do, maybe we wouldn't be in the debt we are in.  What do I know, I am just a tax payer.


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## david (Dec 27, 2010)

How can I make this short and sweet with all the information and researched already provided.  I think it should be legal.  Too many pros and too many cons.  With it being illegal in the U.S. as we know it, there are so many different outlets to sell prostitution from a strip joint, advertised escort agency, massage palor and simply, word of mouth seems to increase and the sale of prostitution is there!  I thought with craiglist doing away with the adult services section, there would be a sudden decrease.  Now, there is a page rather similar to craigslist that's available.  1/2 of the ads are fake from people pretending to be that person or it's just the cops!  So risky!  So, why do I think it should be legalized?  I'm not sure except for the fact that a person should have a right to make their own decisions, earn a living, etc. and to realize that their are many risks such as diseases and rape.


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## david (Dec 27, 2010)

GearsMcGilf said:


> All women are really prostitutes anyway.  Some will give it up for $50, and others it takes a lot more.  But, at the end of the day, they're all selling it.





$50?  That's must be one "smelly" offer!!!!


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## emma2train (Dec 28, 2010)

Not looking for a new career either but I agree. There should be a level of dignity and safety allowed in every profession, regardless of it's duties.


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## davidhop (Jan 2, 2011)

I think that prostitution should never be legalized. It will be a blow to already doomed society with very less amount of moral values present nowadays.


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## Big Pimpin (Jan 2, 2011)

What's the difference if you spend $50 on drinks to get into a chicks pants or you simply hand her $50 and she drops her pants other than one way is legal and the other is illegal?


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## david (Jan 2, 2011)

Big Pimpin said:


> What's the difference if you spend $50 on drinks to get into a chicks pants or you simply hand her $50 and she drops her pants other than one way is legal and the other is illegal?



What about the girls that know you have money, kiss your ass and have sex with you and then, you go out, buy her things, give her money, etc.....


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## KelJu (Jan 2, 2011)

davidhop said:


> I think that prostitution should never be legalized. It will be a blow to already doomed society with very less amount of moral values present nowadays.



If we're already doomed then why does it fucking matter? I'm all for keeping your nose out of other people's business unless they are hurting someone.


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## Gena Marie (Jan 2, 2011)

Prince said:


> *of course it should be legal*, I can go pay for a full body massage, if I want that to include a handjob, felatio or even sex why the fuck does anyone else care? it's my business and the person I am paying for the service, NO ONE has any right to tell two consenting adults they can't have sex, and if one of them is paying the other BIG FUCKING DEAL!
> 
> how is porn not prostitution? two or more people are being paid to have sex so it can be filmed, doesn't that make them all prostitutes?
> 
> we will never stop prostitution,so make it legal, make prostitutes get monthly check-ups and carry an ID card saying their legal, AND tax it. if they come up positive for a disease they lose their ID and risk getting arrested.



Baby, I fully agree with you.  I know there is a moral issue going on here, and I agree with that as well.  Who are we to judge?  What gives us the right?  I never sold my body for $, but I did whatever I needed to do to feed myself and my son.  I had no trust fund or enabling family, so I know what it takes to sink or swim.   I wasn't a great swimmer, but look at me today.  I did what I needed to do to make ends meet.  It is just a part of life.


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## BillHicksFan (Jan 3, 2011)

davidhop said:


> I think that prostitution should never be legalized. It will be a blow to already doomed society with very less amount of moral values present nowadays.


 
Prostitution has been legal in Australia and most other wealthy countries for decades and nobody gives a fuck. Nobody talks about it. Nobody cares. Do you think the Playboy mansion is filled victims of crime? No, those hookers yearn to make that status. I can't believe the US even bothers criminalizing it as it's the world oldest profession. Legalize it, control it and make it safe for both hooker and client. 
End of story.


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## theCaptn' (Jan 3, 2011)

whores have been around for ever. Its a service industry. Some women dont even charge money for it.


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## vortrit (Jan 3, 2011)

theCaptn' said:


> whores have been around for ever. Its a service industry. Some women *dont even charge *money for it.



Those are the best kinds. About a year and a half ago I went to a bar and got plastered. Anyway when the bar closed I went to the parking lot this chick started attacking me and we ended up screwing behind the bar right on the ground. I never even got her name...


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## Big Pimpin (Jan 3, 2011)

theCaptn' said:


> whores have been around for ever. Its a service industry. Some women dont even charge money for it.


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## Gena Marie (Jan 3, 2011)

vortrit said:


> Those are the best kinds. About a year and a half ago I went to a bar and got plastered. Anyway when the bar closed I went to the parking lot this chick started attacking me and we ended up screwing behind the bar right on the ground. I never even got her name...



Hopefully you slipped one on before you slipped it in.  If not, you might want to get your shit checked out.  Just saying...


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## vortrit (Jan 3, 2011)

Gena Marie said:


> Hopefully you slipped one on before you slipped it in.  If not, you might want to get your shit checked out.  Just saying...



No. I'm actually usually very careful and was worried as hell aftwards. I've been checked out a couple of times since, and all it good. I really lucked out on that one.


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## Gena Marie (Jan 3, 2011)

vortrit said:


> No. I'm actually usually very careful and was worried as hell aftwards. I've been checked out a couple of times since, and all it good. I really lucked out on that one.



Right on!  I have been there my self, that is some scary shit.  You never know what people are walking round with, and how easily they are willing to share it with others, lol.


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## theCaptn' (Jan 3, 2011)

Gena Marie said:


> Right on! I have been there my self, that is some scary shit. You never know what people are walking round with, and how easily they are willing to share it with others, lol.


 
every Man whore worth his salt always wears a shealth on his man-vagina


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## david (Jan 3, 2011)

vortrit said:


> No. I'm actually usually very careful and was worried as hell aftwards. I've been checked out a couple of times since, and all it good. I really lucked out on that one.



Very Good and lucky!!!!


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## LAM (Jan 3, 2011)

Prince said:


> you all do realize that prostitution is legal in Nevada and it does not cause any problems.



one of my gf's just did a report on this for school.

the big problems with prostitution are in other countries (especially 2-3rd world) were human trafficking is very high.  a researcher spent like 7 years studying brothels.  in NV she found that the incidences of violence, etc. were very rare and mainly it was woman prostitutes vs each other.  here in NV the movement of the prostitutes is very restricted they can only go so far and for so long from the the brothel.

decriminalization should be the 1st step, selling "sex" is no different then selling any other goods or services.


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## david (Jan 4, 2011)

Is prostitiution legal in Rhode Island???


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## bio-chem (Jan 4, 2011)

LAM said:


> *one of* my gf's just did a report on this for school.



Um.......WTH?


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## ATyler (Jan 4, 2011)

LAM said:


> one of my gf's just did a report on this for school.


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## theCaptn' (Jan 4, 2011)

I just jerked off . .  no prostitute required


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## LAM (Jan 4, 2011)

bio-chem said:


> Um.......WTH?



she's in college!


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## Gena Marie (Jan 4, 2011)

theCaptn' said:


> I just jerked off . .  no prostitute required



Safer that way.  Cost very little $ if any, and no medical check up required.  Safety is key


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## SFW (Jan 4, 2011)

vortrit said:


> No. I'm actually usually very careful and was worried as hell aftwards. I've been checked out a couple of times since, and all it good. I really lucked out on that one.


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## vortrit (Jan 4, 2011)

Mr. Fantastico said:


>



I just sprayed some on my crotch. It stings, but it's kind of rewarding at the same time!


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## Gena Marie (Jan 5, 2011)

vortrit said:


> I just sprayed some on my crotch. It stings, but it's kind of rewarding at the same time!





You are too much


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## MuskokaGirl (Jan 6, 2011)

its going to be in Canada in Feb or something...I do not get it, I do not think it just be legal..


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## david (Jan 6, 2011)

MuskokaGirl said:


> its going to be in Canada in Feb or something...I do not get it, I do not think it just be legal..



Agreed!!!


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