# is hgh worth it



## poundage (Dec 25, 2009)

I have done many cycles....usually a base of test with trenbolone or anadrol added in....i am 44 yrs old 5'10" 210 approx 9% bf have been training for approx 25 yrs...just looking to improve my physique as much as possable and from what i've heard hgh is close to the fountain of youth...but i have no experience with it....should i stick with my usual cycles and pct or add hgh and if so how much to run and for how long...
thanks in advance for any feedback


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## GFR (Dec 25, 2009)

HGH at moderate doses is amazing for men over 40 years old.


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## WFC2010 (Dec 26, 2009)

you will love it
and always spend also last money for HGH
i love hgh more then my wife,hahaha


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## VictorZ06 (Dec 26, 2009)

HGH works much differently than AAS.  But, they work in harmony together.  

In a nut shell, instead of AAS making your muscle cells larger, HGH takes those cells and makes more.  Make those new cells bigger, and you are talking massive gains.  HGH works MUCH more effective when your body is in an anabolic state.  You can take it one step further and combine HGH with insulin, but this method is by no means for a novice.

At your age, start at 2-3 iu in the morning.  See how that works.  You can turn up the music as you go along if you feel that you need more.

/V


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## poundage (Dec 26, 2009)

Great advice guys...and victor thanks for that detailed information...thats exactly what i was looking for...and as for the insulin...as im no novice to training or aas....i've  never used insulin and would love any information that you can offer...i may look to incorporate that in a future cycle..


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## WFC2010 (Dec 26, 2009)

you will like hgh for sure...go get it asap


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## VictorZ06 (Dec 26, 2009)

poundage said:


> Great advice guys...and victor thanks for that detailed information...thats exactly what i was looking for...and as for the insulin...as im no novice to training or aas....i've  never used insulin and would love any information that you can offer...i may look to incorporate that in a future cycle..



I'd be happy to give you some info, but because of how fragile the topic is, I'd rather give you some examples of how it works.  FYI, insulin is the most powerful anabolic substance that we know of.  In short, insulin can kill you if you don't use it correctly.  Anyone thinking of experimenting with insulin should do several weeks/months of research and see a MD before beginning.  It's a very complex science where specific diet and timing are needed.

Think of insulin as a bus that shuttles nutrients to the rest of your body.  It's like Santa visiting your body and delivering the right nutrients right on time, (just be sure to take it on time along with the right food).  It's to your advantage when you use insulin to shuttle HGH and the ideal carbs to your body during certain specific times of the day.  IMHO, those who are 300+ lbs. of pure LBM are near certain to be using insulin.  Insulin brings everything to a whole new level.  If you do your homework and learn how it all works, it can be safely done.  Just be weary there is no room for error here.  One slip-up can cost you BIG time.

/V


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## Built (Dec 26, 2009)

In light of this, I find it rather startling that insulin is OTC in Canada, but GH is not!


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## VictorZ06 (Dec 26, 2009)

Built said:


> In light of this, I find it rather startling that insulin is OTC in Canada, but GH is not!



All kinds?  Or just slow acting?  Many states here in the US will give you slow acting slin OTC, but not fast (the kind we want). 

/V


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## heavyiron (Dec 26, 2009)

VictorZ06 said:


> HGH works much differently than AAS. But, they work in harmony together.
> 
> In a nut shell, instead of AAS making your muscle cells larger, *HGH takes those cells and makes more*. Make those new cells bigger, and you are talking massive gains. HGH works MUCH more effective when your body is in an anabolic state. You can take it one step further and combine HGH with insulin, but this method is by no means for a novice.
> 
> ...


 
So does Trestosterone. This was proven in trials years ago.


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## Built (Dec 26, 2009)

VictorZ06 said:


> All kinds?  Or just slow acting?  Many states here in the US will give you slow acting slin OTC, but not fast (the kind we want).
> 
> /V



Oooh, good question. Dunno. I've never purchased either. Just pins and B-12.



heavyiron. said:


> So does Trestosterone. This was proven in trials years ago.


Does test do this through the endogenous increase in GH (and hence IGF), or does test do this independent of this increase?


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## VictorZ06 (Dec 26, 2009)

heavyiron. said:


> So does Trestosterone. This was proven in trials years ago.



Yes, but no where near the same rate as HGH, not by a long shot.  Thus, the main reason Aids wasting patients are prescribed HGH instead of test programs.

/V


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## weldingman (Dec 26, 2009)

Your so right Vic you better know what the hell your doing with insulin


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## VictorZ06 (Dec 26, 2009)

*along with some extra info...*



Built said:


> Does test do this through the endogenous increase in GH (and hence IGF), or does test do this independent of this increase?



There are two different types of muscular hypertrophy: sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar (muscles also increase in size due to a small amount of hyperplasia but this contribution is _minimal_). 

During sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, the volume of sarcoplasmic fluid in the muscle cell increases with no accompanying increase in muscular strength. 

During myofibrillar hypertrophy, the myofibrils, being the actin and myosin contractile proteins, increase in number and add to muscular strength as well as a small increase in the size of the muscle. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is characteristic of the muscles of bodybuilders while myofibrillar hypertrophy is characteristic of weightlifters.

*Kraemer, William J.; Zatsiorsky, Vladimir M. (2006). Science and practice of strength training. Champaign, IL*

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (common in bodybuilding) involves the growth of the sarcoplasm (fluid like substance) and non-contractile proteins that do not directly contribute to muscular force production. Filament area density decreases while cross-sectional area increases, without a significant increase in strength. Myofibrillar hypertrophy occurs due to an increase in myosin-acting filaments. Contractile proteins are synthesized and filament density increases (Zatsiorsky 1995). This type of hypertrophy leads to increased strength production. Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy Muscle fibers adapt to high volume training by increasing the number of mitochondria (organelles in the cell that are involved in ATP production) in the cell. This type of training also leads to the elevation of enzymes that are involved in glycolytic and oxidative pathways. The volume of sarcoplasmic fluid inside the cell and between the cells is increased with high volume training. This type of training contributes little to maximal strength while it does increase strength endurance due to mitochondria hypertrophy. Growth of connective tissue is also present with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

Myofibrillar hypertrophy occurs due to increases in the number of myosin/actin filaments (sarcomeres) inside the cell. This leads to increased strength and size of the contractile unit of muscle. Ultimately this means greater force production. This is often referred to as functional muscle, while sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is referred to as non-functional muscle. ATP and Muscular Growth as we said earlier, increasing the number of mitochondria in the cell means increased ATP production. ATP is required for protein synthesis to occur. Low levels of ATP will halt muscular growth as well as inhibit other metabolic functions that take place inside the muscle cell. Siff and Verkhoshansky have shown that it is possible to increase your muscles contractile unit faster than the mitochondria's ability to compensate for this growth. When actin/myosin filaments out grow the number of mitochondria, growth of elements besides the sarcomere is inhibited. The insufficient quantity of ATP results in the body's inability to promote protein synthesis. 

In general, bodybuilders are more muscular than powerlifters, but powerlifters are stronger. How does training with weights that are 90% of 1RM develop strength and power, but do very little for hypertrophy? Studies have shown an intense set of 5 reps involves more fibers than an intense set of 1rep. Research has shown that using loads in the 90% range causes failure to occur before a growth stimulus has been sent to the cells. Therefore other factors besides muscle fiber fatigue result in termination of the set. The muscle simply does not have sufficient time under tension to stimulate the growth process. High rep training produces high levels of phosphate and hydrogen ions, which enhance the growth process. Research has shown heavy lifting enhances neural efficiency (improved motor recruitment, and firing rates), which enhances strength, but does not necessarily result in muscular growth. 

With this information you can see why the strength, and size levels are different between bodybuilders and powerlifters. There are powerlifters that possess muscularity comparable to bodybuilders. There are also bodybuilders who have equal or greater strength than powerlifters.

*The weight trainer (2001) Muscle Growth part 1811: Why, And How Does A Muscle Grow and Get stronger? Zatsiorsky, V. (1995) Science and Practice of Strength Training. Human Kinetics. Copyright 2001 Jamie Hale *


/V


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## Built (Dec 26, 2009)

Thank you Victor. I am well familiar with the relative contributions of the sarcomere and the sarcoplasm and that abstract is a good read, but it was GH-induced hyperplasia I wanted to know more about. I understand that GH goes up as testosterone goes up - is this the mechanism through which testosterone induces hyperplasia - however slightly - or does it happen through the endogenous increase in GH the testosterone induces?


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## VictorZ06 (Dec 26, 2009)

Built said:


> Thank you Victor. I am well familiar with the relative contributions of the sarcomere and the sarcoplasm and that abstract is a good read, but it was GH-induced hyperplasia I wanted to know more about. I understand that GH goes up as testosterone goes up - is this the mechanism through which testosterone induces hyperplasia - however slightly - or does it happen through the endogenous increase in GH the testosterone induces?



I would think hyperplasia comes from elevated doses of HGH, and elevated HGH could be elevated from high test doses alone.  I don't think hyperplasia is a direct result from test, it elevates HGH and then IGF-1 levels, causing hyperplasia.  At least this is my understanding.  HGH (the IGF-1 result) is the only true substance that can cause hyperplasia on a noticeable scale, IMHO (some studies have shown that there are other methods that can cause hyperplasia).  

AAS doesn't really have the capacity to first add and later grow more muscle cells.  HGH is also noted for increasing protein syntheses...and that can be attributed to hypertrophy.

Refer to RedBaron's guide on "*A Guide to HGH*" May 5th 2009.


*
A Basic Guide to HGH – by RedBaron

The intention of this guide is to give you a good basic working knowledge of HGH and how to intelligently use it. While this is not intended to cover every conceivable nuance of HGH use, it should provide you with a solid enough background to create your cycle around. I am not writing this as a scientific exposition or as an overly technical overview. I am writing this from the standpoint of a seven-year veteran of HGH use, and an athlete (yes even paid at times) that has used this as one of the tools in my arsenal. I have injected tens of thousands of IU’s of HGH into myself, and carefully monitored, tested, and experimented on myself. So with that disclaimer being made up front, lets take a look at this hormone called HGH.

Few other hormones have generated more excitement and hype in recent years than HGH. From reports of incredible fat loss to tales of increases in lean muscle to levels that defy genetics, HGH has been touted as one of the panaceas to all bodybuilding woes. Depending on which statistics you trust, reports of as many as 80% of professional athletes have experimented with, have used, or are actively using HGH as a supplement to their training program.

WHAT EXACTLY IS HGH?

Human Growth Hormone (somatotropin - also referred to as rHGH, HGH, or GH) is created by the pituitary gland, the primary form consisting of a 191 amino acid chain. When we are young, HGH is in big part responsible for the proper growth of bones, muscle, and other tissues. Too little of this hormone and we remain dwarfs … too much and we become giants and/or suffer from abnormal growth deformities. As we become adults, HGH is responsible for keeping muscles from wasting away, supports healthy immune system response, regulates aspects of our metabolic function dealing with increased fat metabolism and healthy body composition in later life, and maintains and repairs our skin and other tissues.

Our levels of HGH peak while we are adolescents and then begin to drop off sharply beginning in our 30’s. By our 60’s, our daily HGH secretion can be as little as 10% of what it was during our youth. Many of the markers of aging are affected by this decrease in HGH. Some of the results of this are:

· Increase in fat.
· Decrease in muscle and lean body structures.
· Decreased skin texture resulting in a less youthful appearance.
· Decreased bone density, onset of osteoporosis.
· Decreased brain function, loss of intellect with aging.
· Decreased sex drive.
· Decrease in overall physical and mental well being.
· Increase in sleep disorders, lower quality of sleep.
· Depression and fatigue.

The addition of supplemental HGH beginning in the latter 30’s can reverse or improve these symptoms in the majority of people attempting therapy. This is why you will often hear references with respect to HGH as “the fountain of youth” and other similar terms. It can present a better quality of life for those aging.

HOW IS HGH RELEASED IN YOUR BODY?

HGH is secreted from the pituitary in a pulsatile fashion, generally following a circadian rhythm. A number of stimuli can initiate an HGH secretion, the most powerful being short duration, high intensity exercise and sleep. During the first few hours of sleep (deep sleep stages – about 2 hours after you fall asleep), Somatostatin is turned off and GHRH is turned on, resulting in HGH pulses.

Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH) produced by the hypothalamus stimulates HGH secretion. HGH, and IGF-1 create a negative feedback loop, meaning when their levels are high; it blunts release of GHRH, which in turn blunts the release of more HGH.

Somatostatin (SS), secreted by the hypothalamus as well as other tissues inhibits the secretion of HGH Somatostatin in response to GHRH and to other stimulatory factors such as low blood glucose concentration. High levels of IGF-1 also stimulate Somatostatin secretion.

Ghrelin is a peptide hormone secreted from the stomach. Ghrelin binds to receptors on somatotrophs and potently stimulates secretion of growth hormone. Ghrelin, as the stimulator for the growth hormone secretagogue receptor, potently stimulates secretion of growth hormone. The ghrelin signal is integrated with that of growth hormone releasing hormone and somatostatin to control the timing and magnitude of growth hormone secretion.

Once HGH is released, it is very short lived. It is generally metabolized and gone within a half-hour. During this half-hour, it travels to the liver and other tissues and induces them to secrete a polypeptide hormone called Insulin-like Growth Factor One (IGF-1).

HOW DOES HGH DO ITS WORK?

As mentioned above, HGH is short lived, but during its short half-hour or so activity per burst from the pituitary, it exerts itself through direct and indirect effects.

Its direct effects are the result of the HGH binding its receptor on target cells. Fat cells (adipocytes) as well as myocytes (muscle cells) have HGH receptors. On fat cells, HGH stimulates them to break down triglyceride and suppresses the fat cells ability to uptake circulating lipids.

Its indirect effects are in the process we described in the section above. When HGH travels to the liver, one of the results of its pass through the liver is the livers secretion of IGF-1. When this IGF-1 is secreted, it stimulates proliferation of chondrocytes (cartilage cells), which result in bone growth. It also plays a part in stimulating both the proliferation and differentiation of myoblasts (the precursor to skeletal muscle fibers). IGF-1 also stimulates amino acid uptake and protein synthesis in muscle and other tissues. Other tissues (muscle, etc.) are acted on by the presence of HGH, also inducing their release of IGF-1.

HGH stimulates protein anabolism in many tissues. This reflects increased protein synthesis, decreased oxidation of proteins, and increased amino acid uptake. As mentioned above, HGH enhances fat utilization by stimulating triglyceride breakdown and oxidation in fat cells (adipocytes).

HGH can affect the function of other hormones. HGH can suppress the abilities of insulin to stimulate the uptake of glucose in tissues and enhance glucose synthesis in the liver, though administering HGH actually stimulates insulin secretion and can create a state of hyperinsulinemia. This combination can lead to decreased insulin sensitivity, which in turn can lead to hyperglycemia. HGH can in the right circumstances also have a slight inhibitory effect on the function of our thyroid hormones (and actually vice versa as well), though this varies greatly from individual to individual. The vast majority of users have no need to worry about this at all. Others wishing to increase their metabolism or enhance certain of HGH’s functions may wish to consider low dose thyroid to their HGH cycle. We’ll offer some strategies later in this guide.

So, we are looking at a hormone that can assist with maintenance and healing of most of the body’s systems, can create new cartilage, bone, and muscle cells, can assist with protein uptake, decrease the oxidation of proteins, and can accelerate the rate at which fat is utilized. This paints the picture of the excitement that follows HGH. How then do we utilize this to our advantage? Let’s take a look at some strategies.

HOW DO I INCREASE MY LEVELS OF HGH?

There are a few strategies for increasing your own endogenous production of HGH. For the most part these aren’t going to give us a significant enough increase that would be necessary to promote all of the benefits mentioned above in their full measure, but for some (those still young) they will prove to be sufficient.

By adding several grams of Arginine and Glutamine to our daily supplement program, we can increase our levels of HGH. If we are very young or we are only in need of a modest jump in production, this may well do the trick. Short duration, high-intensity exercise (think heavy leg day – puking and all), will trigger our bodies to secrete a significant amount of HGH

Another possibility is to inject various related hormones or peptides. There are many available, such as GHRH, GHRP (and all of its analogs), and the like. These peptides are available from research companies and when injected at doses of 100mcgs per day, sub-q it does seem to show promise in increasing levels of HGH. At this stage the game, there isn’t a significant cost advantage to this over rHGH, but if we are trying to promote some of the other forms of HGH in addition to the primary form, or have no hope of securing a prescription for HGH (or other means of access) there may be an advantage to this course of action. Aside from these strategies, what are we left with? To state it simply, we need to inject exogenous rHGH.

INJECTIBLE HGH AND ITS USE
True HGH only comes in the form of a lyophilized powder. Any other form that you see advertised or run across is NOT the real deal. The only way to administer true HGH is by sub-q or intramuscular injection. You will see studies that use IV as their method of administration, but that is certainly NOT recommended (in fact it is just outright crazy), nor necessary in any way for getting all of the benefits HGH has to offer.

HGH is somewhat fragile by nature, and it needs to be protected from light and heat. HGH should be stored between 36 and 46 degrees Fahrenheit at all times both before and after its reconstitution.

There are a couple of American brands of HGH that can survive in normal room temperature for a reasonable amount of time BEFORE reconstitution (Genotropin – 3 months, Saizen – until expiration), but for the most part it is better to err on the side of safe rather than sorry. All brands of HGH should be refrigerated after being reconstituted, and all brands should be protected from light at all times.

RECONSTITUTING AND MEASURING YOUR HGH
So you now have a vial HGH in the form of lyophilized powder. The amount of this powder should be indicated on the vial somewhere. It will either be stated in Units (IU’s) or in Milligrams (mg). If it is stated in milligrams, the conversion is most commonly stated as 1mg = ~3IU’s (its really more precisely 1mg=2.7IU). We will use this 1mg = 3IU’s for our guide since this is the standard most commonly referenced by manufacturers.

What we need to do with this lyophilized powder is add some Bacteriostatic water (BW), Sterile Water, or even liquid vitamin B12 to reconstitute it and make it ready to inject.

What we choose to reconstitute it with should depend on how rapidly we use the GH. Bacteriostatic water is basically sterile water with 0.9% Benzyl Alcohol added, and this Alcohol keeps anything from growing in the water, thus making it safe for injection for the longest amount of time, up to three weeks. If the amount of GH in our vial is enough to last for a few weeks at our desired daily dosage, BW is the wisest choice. For the common use for bodybuilding (2-5 IU’s a day) and the more commonly used vial size (10 IU’s), it isn’t really as critical which of the above listed dilutents are used … the vial will be used up long before bacteria or anything begins to grow in our reconstituted HGH. It is really personal preference outside of the considerations listed above.

RECONSTITUTING

1.) Take an alcohol swab and swab the stopper of both your HGH vial and the vial of the dilutent (BW, sterile water, B12).

2.) Take a 3cc syringe with a 23 or 25 gauge needle (1″ or 1.5″) and draw up and amount of your preferred dilutent. The amount isn’t critical, other than making sure you know exactly how much you have used. The best rule of thumb is choose an amount that will make measuring the final product easy

example- 1ml(cc) per 10 IU vial of HGH would mean each 10 mark on a U100 slin syringe would equal 1 IU of HGH

2ml(cc) added to a 10 IU vial of HGH would mean that the 20 mark on a U100 syringe would equal 1 IU of HGH

3ml(cc) added to a 10 IU vial of HGH would mean that the 30 mark on a U100 syringe would equal 1 IU of HGH

3.) Take this syringe with the dilutent and push it into the vial of lyophilized powder, angling so that the needle touches the side of the vial, and avoiding shooting the dilutent directly on the lyophilized powder. Make it run slowly down the side of the vial (don’t let it forcefully rush in).

4.) After all of the dilutent has been added to the HGH vial, gentling swirl (do NOT agitate or violently shake the vial) until the lyophilized powder has dissolved and you are left with a clear liquid. The HGH is now ready for use. Store your now reconstituted HGH in the refrigerator. If you used BW to reconstitute it will be good for three weeks. If you used sterile water, it will be good for about 5 days.

MEASURING

After you have successfully reconstituted your HGH, now you need to know how to measure the desired amount out for injection. You will want to use a U100 insulin syringe to draw out and inject your HGH.

Here is the way to figure out how much to draw out. Since you know the amount of IU’s in your HGH vial, and you also know how much water you have diluted it with, we just divide this out as follows:

You will need to know the following to be successful -

1ml = 1cc = 100 IU’s

So we take our number of IU’s of HGH from the label of the dry lyophilized powder (most commonly 10 IU’s for all of us Jintropin users), and we divide that into the amount of dilutent we used.

example- We used 1cc(ml) of water. We have a 10 IU vial of HGH.
From our formula above we know that 1cc = 100 IU’s, so we have 100 IU’s of water.
We now divide the 100 IU’s (the amount of our water) by 10 IU’s (the amount of our HGH)

100 IU / 10 IU = 10

This 10 will perfectly correspond with the markings on a U100 insulin syringe. In our example every 10 mark on our syringe will equal 1 IU of HGH. Want to draw out 2 IU’s of GH? ….draw out to the 20 mark on the syringe.

This is about all there is to it. So to recap, just keep straight:

1.) How much actual HGH you are dealing with (read from the vial)
2.) How much water (dilutent) you are using to add to the actual HGH.
3.) Divide the amount of water in units by the amount of GH in units.
4.) This result will equal the measurement on your U100 Insulin syringe per unit of GH.
5.) multiply the number you get it step 4 by how many units you want to inject. This is the number to draw to on your syringe.

Now that we have a basic understanding of what HGH is, how it does its work, and how to reconstitute and measure it, lets look at some strategies for using this hormone to our best advantage.

STRATEGIES FOR USING HGH

There are many different approaches to taking HGH. The right approach for your particular situation will depend on your goals. For many, HGH is a general supplement to help maintain low bodyfat percentages and reasonable levels of lean body mass. For others who have reached their genetic potential for growth, HGH is a supplement that can assist in continued growth beyond what your parents gave you to work with. For yet others, it is a supplement that is used for general health and healing of injuries. Let’s look at each of these uses with respect to a reasonable HGH program.

For bodybuilders, HGH (and the IGF-1 that is a result of its use) is the only substance that can actually initiate hyperplasia, which in the interest of our use in bodybuilding equates to new muscle cells. While use of anabolic steroids can cause hypertrophy (the enlargement of existing muscle cells), steroids do not offer the ability to recruit and mature more muscle cells. HGH can. HGH also increases protein synthesis, which can be responsible for hypertrophy. HGH also strengthens and heals connective tissues, cartilage, and tendons. These uses are what make it so attractive to athletes in all sports, and in bodybuilding in particular.

To begin with, it should be stated that for the vast majority of HGH users, results are not rapid and earthshaking in nature. If your idea of using HGH is to get ripped in a few weeks, gaining 20 pounds of muscle in a matter of a month or two, or being miraculously healed in a matter of a few injections … you are likely in for a BIG disappointment. HGH does some pretty incredible things, but it HAS to be viewed as a long-term endeavor. A reasonable length HGH cycle would be 20-30 weeks in length. While you will always be able to find the one or two individuals who will make great strides in a short amount of time, the majority of us need to be dedicated to its use for the long haul for it to be a worthy venture.

As mentioned in our introduction to HGH, one of the major roles it plays in growth is by its acting on the liver, muscle cells, and other tissues, which in turn secretes IGF-1. This process is cumulative in nature, and it will take some time for your exogenous HGH use to bring your IGF-1 levels to create an environment conducive to optimal growth. While it is true that HGH begins shuttling nutrients to your muscles, and begins mobilizing fat from the first injection, these behind the scenes benefits will only be VISIBLE several weeks (up to 12) down the road.

DOSING

For anti-aging, general health & healing, fat mobilization
And other purposes such as these –
A dose of 2-3 IU’s per day (~10 – 15 IU’s per week) will be sufficient. A dose of 1.5 - 2.0 IU’s is considered to be a full replacement dose for those in their middle age. Given we will get somewhere in the neighborhood of 70-80% absorption and utilization from our subQ injections, our 2-3 IU’s will for all intents and purposes equate to a full replacement measure of HGH.

For gaining lean muscle and substantially improving body composition –
For this purpose a dose of 5-10 IU’s per day (~25-50 IU’s per week) will be necessary. Most people that still have an alive and kicking pituitary will respond very well at a dose of 5 IU’s per day, though advanced bodybuilders and other large strength athletes will find that dose approaching 10 IU’s per day will be in order.
For maximum benefit in this regard, the addition of Testosterone and/or other anabolic should strongly be considered. For advanced use, other supplements like Insulin, and low-dose T3 or T4 would also be considerations.

Regardless of your goal, as a general rule the best way to begin your HGH program is to start with a low dose and ease your body into the higher doses. This will allow you to avoid (or at least minimize) many of the more common (and unpleasant) sides of HGH such as bloating and joint pain & swelling. Most people can tolerate up to approximately 2 IU’s per day with few sides, so that would be a good place to start.

For many using this as a general health supplement, that is as high as you will need to go. For others this will be only the start. Above 2.5 – 3 IU’s, I would definitely suggest that your split your injections into two per day instead of one unless it is just not feasible to do so. In my experiences, I have ran doses as high as 10 IU’s per injection, but at those doses I have suffered greatly with joint pain and bloating to the point of feeling like a Goodyear blimp. Also in my experimentation it seems that at least for me, keeping my individual doses down to 3-3.5 IU’s a piece, I more effectively elevate my IGF-1 levels while minimizing the need for mega-doses of HGH.

Here is what a good ramp up strategy would look like:
Weeks 1-4 = HGH 2 IU’s one injection
Week 5 = HGH 2.5 IU’s one injection
Week 6 = HGH 3.0 IU’s split into two injections of 1.5 IU’s each
Week 7 = HGH 3.5 IU’s split into two injections of 1.75 IU’s each
And so forth until you reach your desired dose.

If at any point in this progression you begin to have unbearable bloating or joint pain, drop the dose by 25% and hold it at this lower dosage for a couple of weeks. If the sides subside, begin your progression back up toward your desired level. If the sides remain, lower your dose again and hold it at the lower level for two weeks before beginning the upward progression. This method will keep your HGH experience a good one and side free for the most part.

For a normal cycle of 5-8 months in length, injecting once or twice a day, 7 days a week should be fine. While there are studies that suggest that the suppression and negative feedback from exogenous HGH is short lived (about 4 hours from time of injection), there are no large-scale studies to indicate safety of everyday injections in long-term use. There are studies by anti-aging groups demonstrating that a day or two off per week is adequate to protect the pituitary and its triggers over long cycles. If your use of HGH becomes more a lifestyle than a single cycle, I would consider running it 5 on/2 off, or 6 on/ 1 off until such time as we have reliable data demonstrating long-term safety sans any degradation of your own output or the triggers initiating that output. I have personally experimented with just about every conceivable injection strategy I could devise. What I can say about the anti-aging doctor’s supposition is that it panned out for me. I have recently come off of a 7-year run of HGH. I personally pull my own blood panels every six weeks routinely. After many months of being off of HGH, I now have the same profile I had before I began its use many years ago … high normal for my age. All levels and markers are perfectly normal.

Another option would be to run your HGH cycle everyday for the first two months to get your IGF-1 levels elevated quickly and to a level to assist you in an anabolic way, then drop back to 5 days a week. If you can tolerate the sides of higher doses, running the same weekly dose divided every other day is fine as well. The list goes on and frankly is an individual proposition. What seems to be of greatest import is that your weekly supplement of HGH is respectable enough to provide the desired benefit.

TIMING

As described above, the body produces HGH is a pulsatile fashion throughout the day with the heaviest pulses occurring approximately 2 hours or so after going to bed and as you fall into a deep sleep. Injectible HGH is completely absorbed and put to use within approximately 3 hours. The strategy with respect to timing depends somewhat on our age and the other elements of our cycle. As you will see below, there is no single best strategy … it depends a lot on your individual situation.

For those that are between their late 20’s and early 50’s, there is still a reasonable chance that your own endogenous production of HGH is at a reasonable level. The best time to take and injection, this being the case, would be early morning …. After your body’s own release of HGH in the night. If you get up to go to the bathroom in the early morning (3 -5am), this is probably the perfect time to take a couple of units of HGH. This will be the least disruptive time to take an injection of HGH. The second best time would be first thing in the morning when you wake up.

If you are splitting your doses, the two times of the day when your cortisol levels are at peak are when you wake up and in the early afternoon. This being the case, another good strategy is to take your HGH injections at these times. Cortisol is very catabolic by nature and a well -timed HGH injection can go a long way toward blunting this effect.

If you are in your late 50’s or beyond, or if for some reason you have a condition that has rendered your pituitary incapable of a normal release of HGH, a great time to take HGH is right before bed. This allows you to closely mimic the natural pattern that would occur if your pituitary were functioning properly. For the rest of us, taking your HGH right before bed is going to end up creating a negative feedback loop, robbing you of your body’s own nightly pulse of HGH. While the jury is still out (conflicting studies) as to the absolute nature of the negative feedback time, it is clear that the closer we push our injection to the time our body is ready to give us its biggest pulses of HGH, we are going to end up derailing our own triggers and secretion.

Yet another strategy should be considered if you are using insulin with your HGH. Insulin should be used immediately post workout. HGH and insulin do some great things together – they shuttle nutrients in a very complimentary way with each other, and the combination of HGH and Insulin create the best environment for IGF-1 production from the liver. If you are using insulin immediately post workout, taking a few IU’s of HGH pre-workout will allow HGH to offer all of its fat mobilizing effects while getting your HGH and Insulin to the liver at about the right time for huge IGF-1 releases.

SIDE EFFECTS – HOW TO MANAGE THEM

While HGH for the most part is well tolerated, there are some minor, mostly nuisance side effects that can occur. The biggest and most common side effect is bloating and joint pain. The chances of getting these can be minimized or even eliminated by utilizing the ramp up method discussed above in this guide.

If you are younger than your late 20’s, it would be very wise to enter an HGH cycle under the guidance of an MD, who can monitor and confirm whether your growth plates have fused. While abnormal bone growth with HGH use is not common, if used at the wrong point in your body’s development, it could cause disproportionate growth.

If you have a history of cancer or other tumors (at any age), it would be wise to get a complete checkup and be monitored by an MD to make sure that there are no active tumors before your HGH cycle. While HGH (and IGF-1) won’t cause cancer or tumors, they can create an environment that can allow already existing, active tumors to grow at an accelerated rate. We intentionally keep growth factor levels to a minimum in cancer patients. While tumors can create their own growth factors, we really don’t want to throw gas on the fire and allow them to grow any faster than they otherwise could.

Beyond these considerations, there really isn’t anything specific that you would HAVE to take with HGH. There are supplements that you could take for specific conditions that are possible with HGH use. The way people react to HGH is a pretty individual thing. Some people get very little suppression of any kind; others don’t see any gains from adding HGH because of significant enough suppression of one kind or another. Here’s a general rundown of a few of the bigger ones.

For the slight thyroid support that may be desired:
conservative - take nothing
moderate - t-100x, bladderwrack, coleus forskolin, selenium, zinc, chromium, copper
aggressive - T3 at a dose of 12.5 - 25 mcgs or T4 at 100mcgs per day.

For the insulin resistance that is possible:
conservative - 300mg of Alpha Lipoic Acid and 200 - 300mcgs of Chromium Piccinolate
moderate - 15mg of Actos - a prescription med to increase insulin sensitivity, Glucophage (Metformin) to dispose of excess glucose and increase uptake in muscles.
aggressive - add a few IU’s of insulin to your HGH cycle

For healthy test levels to best utilize HGH:
conservative - do nothing
moderate - use Tongkat or Tribulus
aggressive - add 200-300 milligrams (or more) of testosterone weekly to your HGH cycle

For protection against prostate growth:
conservative - do nothing
moderate - use Saw Palmetto (approx 2000mg)
aggressive - use Proscar or equivalent

For those that have a problem with breast tissue growth while on HGH:
For those that suffer from this, there is a difference of opinion as to the cause. In the presence of adequate estrogen, HGH can prompt growth of breast tissue. Also of consideration is that growth hormone, prolactin, and placental lactogen are a subfamily of a large 2-class cytokine superfamily of proteins. The amino acid sequences of hGH and hPL are similar (85% homology). In humans, each of these three proteins can bind hPRL receptors and promote a variety of physiological actions, including breast growth, lactation, and the like.
The current consensus seems to be that the best approach for those with this problem is twofold - Take 200mg of B6 (or Bromo if B6 is not sufficient) and also use 20-40mg of Tamoxifen (Nolva) to control this. If all else fails, a couple of months of Letro and Bromo will most certainly (and aggressively) deal with the problem. This is a pretty rare condition, but I have talked with more than a few bros that have reported this sort of problem.

Once again, I wouldn’t say that all (or any) of these are necessary for everyone. I would use these supplements as necessary to correct whatever conditions arise with your own HGH use. As stated above, reaction to HGH (and just about anything else we use) is very individual.

Hopefully this guide has given you a better understanding of HGH and what it can do for you. HGH, especially when used in conjunction with an AAS cycle, will produce some high-quality, lean mass gains. It can also be used in conjunction with IGF-1 and insulin, which will be the topic of a comparative guide, that I will finish writing and get posted one of these days.

Happy growing! – RedBaron *


/V


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## heavyiron (Dec 26, 2009)

VictorZ06 said:


> Yes, but no where near the same rate as HGH, not by a long shot. Thus, the main reason Aids wasting patients are prescribed HGH instead of test programs.
> 
> /V


Aids wasting patients are given any number of steroids WITHOUT HGH many times so I don't think this proves your point. Anyway, I do agree HGH seems more effective at creating new cells but we cannot discount the effect T has in this regard.


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## heavyiron (Dec 26, 2009)

Built said:


> Does test do this through the endogenous increase in GH (and hence IGF), or does test do this independent of this increase?


 

That is a good question and much discussion has been made on this topic. The scientists don't know exactly what causes the increase in cells but they think it is likely related DIRECTLY to T administration. They only observed this at supraphysiological doses of testosterone and it was dose dependant so the more T the more cells. This is very exciting as a gram a week of T is usually much cheaper than a weeks worth of GH.

Here is an excerpt from the study;

_The mechanisms by which testosterone increases satellite cell number are not known. An increase in satellite cell number could occur by an increase in satellite cell replication, inhibition of satellite cell apoptosis, and/or increased differentiation of stem cells into the myogenic lineage. We do not know which of these processes is the site of regulation by testosterone. On the basis of the observations that testosterone administration induces a rapid proliferative response in muscle satellite cells of prepubertal rats, Jubert and Tobin (__22__) inferred that androgen receptors might be present on the satellite cells. Doumit et al. (__12__) demonstrated the presence of androgen receptors in cultured porcine satellite cell nuclei and myotubes and reported that testosterone exposure increased androgen receptor immunostaining in satellite cells. The authors further demonstrated that the cultured satellite cells exhibited lower differentiation in response to testosterone exposure without an effect on proliferation. Taken together, *these data point to a direct role for testosterone in satellite cell regulation. *_

Here is the abstract;

*Testosterone-induced muscle hypertrophy is associated with an increase in satellite cell number in healthy, young men *

*Indrani Sinha-Hikim,1 Stephen M. Roth,2 Martin I. Lee,1 and Shalender Bhasin1 *

_1Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, California 90059; and 2Department of Human Genetics, University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvamia 15261 _
Submitted 22 August 2002 ; accepted in final form 26 March 2003 







[SIZE=+2] ABSTRACT[/SIZE]
Testosterone (T) supplementation in men induces muscle fiber hypertrophy. We hypothesized that T-induced increase in muscle fiber size is associated with a dose-dependent increase in satellite cell number. We quantitated satellite cell and myonuclear number by using direct counting and spatial orientation methods in biopsies of vastus lateralis obtained at baseline and after 20 wk of treatment with a gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist and a 125-, 300-, or 600-mg weekly dose of T enanthate. T administration was associated with a significant increase in myonuclear number in men receiving 300- and 600-mg doses. The posttreatment percent satellite cell number, obtained by direct counting, differed significantly among the three groups (ANCOVA _P_ < 0.000001); the mean posttreatment values (5.0 and 15.0%) in men treated with 300- and 600-mg doses were greater than baseline (2.5 and 2.5%, respectively, _P_ < 0.05 vs. baseline). The absolute satellite cell number measured by spatial orientation at 20 wk (1.5 and 4.0/mm) was significantly greater than baseline (0.3 and 0.6/mm) in men receiving the 300- and 600-mg doses (_P_ < 0.05). The change in percent satellite cell number correlated with changes in total (_r_ = 0.548) and free T concentrations (_r_ = 0.468). Satellite cell and mitochondrial areas were significantly higher and the nuclear-to-cytoplasmic ratio lower after treatment with 300- and 600-mg doses. We conclude that T-induced muscle fiber hypertrophy is associated with an increase in satellite cell number, a proportionate increase in myonuclear number, and changes in satellite cell ultrastructure.


Full Study;

Testosterone-induced muscle hypertrophy is associated with an increase in satellite cell number in healthy, young men -- Sinha-Hikim et al. 285 (1): E197 -- AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism


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## VictorZ06 (Dec 26, 2009)

heavyiron. said:


> Aids wasting patients are given any number of steroids WITHOUT HGH many times so I don't think this proves your point. Anyway, I do agree HGH seems more effective at creating new cells but we cannot discount the effect T has in this regard.



My point is that HGH is a better tool to use to create newer cells than T alone is.  So to answer the OP, IMHO, yes, it's worth it.

Raised levels of T cause raised levels in HGH, thus, producing higher levels of IGF-1 = newer cells.  The more test, the more HGH is released, the more HGH, the more IGF.  

Or, you could skip the test all together, use a healthy dose of HGH, and once it's converted to IGF, you now have the platform ready for more cells.  So can you boost those IGF levels without test?  Sure, you just need HGH for hyperplasia....but added T would help. 

Yes, Aids patients are given T, but for the main reason of hypogonadism (as well as impaired sexual mood and functioning, loss of body hair, gynecomastia, impaired sense of well-being).  For severe/fast wasting, most are given rather high doses of HGH.  Or so I'm told.

/V


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## heavyiron (Dec 26, 2009)

VictorZ06 said:


> My point is that HGH is a better tool to use to create newer cells than T alone is. So to answer the OP, IMHO, yes, it's worth it.
> 
> *Raised levels of T cause raised levels in HGH, thus, producing higher levels of IGF-1 = newer cells. The more test, the more HGH is released, the more HGH, the more IGF. *
> 
> ...


I don't know if you saw this above but these scientists seem to acknowledge that it is not as simple or even through he same route as you have posted. I am not discounting IGF-1, I just dont think its as simple as that.

_The mechanisms by which testosterone increases satellite cell number are not known. An increase in satellite cell number could occur by an increase in satellite cell replication, inhibition of satellite cell apoptosis, and/or increased differentiation of stem cells into the myogenic lineage. We do not know which of these processes is the site of regulation by testosterone. On the basis of the observations that testosterone administration induces a rapid proliferative response in muscle satellite cells of prepubertal rats, Jubert and Tobin (__22__) inferred that androgen receptors might be present on the satellite cells. Doumit et al. (__12__) demonstrated the presence of androgen receptors in cultured porcine satellite cell nuclei and myotubes and reported that testosterone exposure increased androgen receptor immunostaining in satellite cells. The authors further demonstrated that the cultured satellite cells exhibited lower differentiation in response to testosterone exposure without an effect on proliferation. Taken together, *these data point to a direct role for testosterone in satellite cell regulation. *_


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## weldingman (Dec 26, 2009)

Damn I'm lost


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## VictorZ06 (Dec 27, 2009)

heavyiron. said:


> _The mechanisms by which testosterone increases satellite cell number are not known. An increase in satellite cell number could occur by an increase in satellite cell replication, inhibition of satellite cell apoptosis, and/or increased differentiation of stem cells into the myogenic lineage. We do not know which of these processes is the site of regulation by testosterone._



Since these mechanisms are unknown to the author, I don't think we can directly point the finger at T for being responsible for hyperplasia.  I don't even think the author can draw that conclusion from his findings.  

An increase in number of cells "_could_" occur (in rats), as the author above stated.  He also states that androgen receptors "_might_" be present on the satellite cells. I'm not sure I'd call this concrete information and research, as the questions remain unanswered...just mere speculation.

Like I said above, T elevates HGH, HGH elevates IGF-1, and there you have the beginning process of hyperplasia.  T does elevate HGH totals, and you also receive more pulses throughout the day.  IGF-1 is the key factor when looking for hyperplasia.  Most using HGH for hyperplasia usually use it with insulin, and that's a totally different game.

This is getting a bit complex, I'll end it here. 

/V


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## Pirate! (Dec 27, 2009)

Great topic and discussion! Depending on your budget, hGH IS worth it. I miss the aching knuckles, as I can't afford it these days.


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## heavyiron (Dec 27, 2009)

VictorZ06 said:


> Since these mechanisms are unknown to the author, I don't think we can directly point the finger at T for being responsible for hyperplasia. I don't even think the author can draw that conclusion from his findings.
> 
> An increase in number of cells "_could_" occur (in rats), as the author above stated. He also states that androgen receptors "_might_" be present on the satellite cells. I'm not sure I'd call this concrete information and research, as the questions remain unanswered...just mere speculation.
> 
> ...


I don't know if you realize, this was a joint effort of scientists and not a single author who wrote these findings. Here are the men and the name of the University;

Indrani Sinha-Hikim,1 Stephen M. Roth,2 Martin I. Lee,1 and Shalender Bhasin1 

_1Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, California 90059; and 2Department of Human Genetics, University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvamia 15261 _

Additionally they state a number of references to support their findings at the end of the study.

Testosterone-induced muscle hypertrophy is associated with an increase in satellite cell number in healthy, young men -- Sinha-Hikim et al. 285 (1): E197 -- AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism


Since you are convinced of the mechanisim would you produce the study that scientifically proves your position? I have a great appreciation for science and would concede the point if you could produce it.


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## VictorZ06 (Dec 27, 2009)

*Heavy*, this was taken from the study that you posted above....

_However, this hypothesis *cannot explain* our observations that testosterone administration is associated with increases in satellite cell and myonuclear number. Our data lead us to conclude that an increase in satellite cell number and the subsequent fusion of satellite cells with muscle fibers resulting in an increase in myonuclear number and muscle fiber hypertrophy *are likely* involved in mediating androgen-induced muscle hypertrophy. However, our data cannot exclude the important role that changes in muscle protein synthesis and degradation might play in the process of muscle hypertrophy associated with testosterone supplementation. 

*We do not know whether the increase in satellite cell number is the primary event that is subsequently associated with increased muscle protein synthesis or whether the increases in myonuclear and satellite cell numbers occur secondarily to maintain the myonuclear domain*....

Therefore, *we speculate* that muscle fiber hypertrophy and the increase in myonuclear number observed here were preceded by testosterone-induced increases in satellite cell number and fusion of satellite cells with muscle fibers._

Can we agree that elevated levels of test will elevate levels of HGH?  

Can we agree that HGH elevates the levels of IGF-1?  

Can we agree that IGF-1 is the main cause of hyperplasia?  

If so, we are on the same page.  I'll try and dig up some more studies and info on the subject.  I never said T doesn't cause any hyperplasia, I said HGH does a far better job at doing so.  All in all, good reading. 

/V


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## heavyiron (Dec 27, 2009)

VictorZ06 said:


> *Heavy*, this was taken from the study that you posted above....
> 
> _However, this hypothesis *cannot explain* our observations that testosterone administration is associated with increases in satellite cell and myonuclear number. Our data lead us to conclude that an increase in satellite cell number and the subsequent fusion of satellite cells with muscle fibers resulting in an increase in myonuclear number and muscle fiber hypertrophy *are likely* involved in mediating androgen-induced muscle hypertrophy. However, our data cannot exclude the important role that changes in muscle protein synthesis and degradation might play in the process of muscle hypertrophy associated with testosterone supplementation. _
> 
> ...


I have no problem with it being an educated guess but to say we know the exact mechanism like you did led me to believe you had scientific data. If so great. Let's see it.

Additionally T causes hyperplasia in a dose dependant relationship so the more T the more cells. This would seem to indicate that T at larger doses than used in the trial would illicit further effect. In other words, what dose of T is inferior to what dose of HGH in this regard? 

Anyway, I am not discounting your knowledge it just seemed pretty simplified.


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## VictorZ06 (Dec 27, 2009)

heavyiron. said:


> I have no problem with it being an educated guess but to say we know the exact mechanism like you did led me to believe you had scientific data. If so great. Let's see it.
> 
> Anyway, I am not discounting your knowledge it just seemed pretty simplified.



I always try to explain myself with these topics the easiest way that I can.  I'm not an MD nor am I a scientist, but I do explore and read as much as I can obsorb.  I'm sorry if I led you to believe that I knew the exact and precise mechanism that these compounds have in relation to hyperplasia.  I used the term "in a nutshell" to outline the basics behind the theory.  

When posting, I really try and use Layman's terms so that others can get an idea of what we are talking about.  The three points I laid out were to simplify my reasoning and explanation.  I don't think you can object to these points.

*• Can we agree that elevated levels of test will elevate levels of HGH?

• Can we agree that HGH elevates the levels of IGF-1?

• Can we agree that IGF-1 is the main cause of hyperplasia?*

Like I said, if we can agree on these points above, there really isn't much more to read into.  Bottom line, IGF-1 is the primary and most effective way to cause hyperplasia.

/V


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## Built (Dec 27, 2009)

Heavyiron, Victor - fantastic discussion; thank you so much, both of you, for the information you posted. Very interesting stuff; it's so great to have smart people arguing endocrinology.


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## Perdido (Dec 28, 2009)

Why would one go with hgh when you could go with r3 igf and skip over a process if your looking for hyperplasia?


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## VictorZ06 (Dec 28, 2009)

rahaas said:


> Why would one go with hgh when you could go with r3 igf and skip over a process if your looking for hyperplasia?



IGF use is not suggested to be run for a longer period of 5-6 weeks.  HGH has several other benefits that IGF (long or short acting) can not provide.

IGF is a much more potent and cheaper alternative to GH use, although GH is more effective for fat loss than IGF due to some other effects that it causes such as metabolism increase and the ability to effectively use more insulin, t3, and anabolic steroids.

Another advantage that IGF has over GH is that it has much more of an affinity to attach to muscle cells instead of bone and organ cells. Growth hormone has been know to cause a lot of organ enlargement and bone elongation since it attaches to all types of receptor cells. IGF is much more likely to go where we want it, our muscle cells. IGF-1 attaches to myogenic stem cells, which are only located in muscle and connective tissues. These myogenic stem cells are responsible for the production of myoblast cells, which in turn are responsible for the buildup and repair of connective tissues (ligaments, tendons, cartilage, and joints to a certain extent).


So from this you can see that IGF-1 is great for increasing the strength of tendons and also for helping to heal existing injuries while at the same time helping to prevent them. IGF-1 is also responsible for increased protein synthesis and amino acid synthesis.

IGF does not have to be used along with anabolic steroids, GH, insulin, or thyroid hormones to be effective. It causes muscle growth on its own. In fact some people prefer to use it during their breaks from steroid cycles since IGF has no effect on natural test production.

_So, if you are looking for fat loss...I'd opt to run HGH as IGF will not help in this case._  I run both at the same time in conjunction with test and slin for the most part.

/V


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## Perdido (Dec 28, 2009)

Thanks for the info Victor. 
I am not so concerned with fat loss. My biggest concern was the expense involved with gh. Sounds like I can get away with IGF for joint repair.


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## heavyiron (Dec 28, 2009)

rahaas said:


> Thanks for the info Victor.
> I am not so concerned with fat loss. My biggest concern was the expense involved with gh. Sounds like I can get away with IGF for joint repair.


Keep in mind that testosterone raises IGF-1. Try Test alone before spending a bunch of hard earned cash brother.


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## VictorZ06 (Oct 26, 2010)

Had to look up a study posted here and just finished reading the entire thread.  I had a blast with this one.  LOTS of great info here guys.



/V


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## Didsky (Oct 27, 2010)

question for Victor,
I have been advised to take 3 times a week 10IU , to increase muscle mass
I am 36 yo, 175cm height and 68kg
plan to use Test in parallel and Proscar to avoid to increase my hairloss...
I tain 4 to 5 times a week
Do you think that this is a good way  to use HGH?
Thanks


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## Built (Oct 27, 2010)

Didsky, who advised you to do this?


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## VictorZ06 (Oct 27, 2010)

Didsky said:


> question for Victor,
> I have been advised to take 3 times a week 10IU , to increase muscle mass
> I am 36 yo, 175cm height and 68kg
> plan to use Test in parallel and Proscar to avoid to increase my hairloss...
> ...



No, it's not unless you are running slin and IGF and injecting via IM and taking all necessary precautions.  4-5 weeks on....than switch to IGF instead of slin.  Otherwise, 4-6iu a day split in two via sub-q would work best.  IMHO.

/V


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## Ocnbreeze (Oct 27, 2010)

*Hgh*

In my opinion, HGH is the most over rated drug out there. I have used 4 different brands. 3 from small pharmas or UGL's and 1 was Pfizer's Genotropin. 3 to 4 IU's a day for 3 mo. with the off brands with no noticeable effects of any kind. 4 IU's a day for 4 mo. with Genotropin. That was the real deal, the fat around my waist just melted away. However, I didn't notice any muscle building effect. I used it "on cycle" in a test, deca cycle. No additional gain from a previous cycle with no HGH. It is way too expensive to be used as a fat loss drug. Unless you have a lot of bucks to waste. It is also doubtful that it is a life extension drug. Current research into life extension is in 3 areas. 1. Caloric restriction. 2. Preventing oxidative damage to the body's tissues. 3. Reduction of IGF-1 levels in the body. As everyone knows, HGH raises IGF-1 levels. Worldwide sales of HGH were in the 10's of billions of $ last year. These drug companies are laughing all the way to the bank.


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## Didsky (Oct 27, 2010)

ok great Victor, 
thanks
and is it a problem to  make it 6 days on 7?
Is it better to take Decabol or Test propionate in parallel? I have to consider the one that makes the less sides on my hairloss .... even if I use finasteride (proscar) I  really fear to  lose more..
thanks guys


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## VictorZ06 (Oct 27, 2010)

Didsky said:


> ok great Victor,
> thanks
> and is it a problem to  make it 6 days on 7?
> Is it better to take Decabol or Test propionate in parallel? I have to consider the one that makes the less sides on my hairloss .... even if I use finasteride (proscar) I  really fear to  lose more..
> thanks guys



I'm not sure if I'm following you correctly....are you asking if you can use it 6 days a week and not the full week?  If so, yes....you can.  Some use it 5 days a week....mainly for $ issues though.


/V


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## Didsky (Oct 28, 2010)

yes Victor that was my question, thanks. And the other question was the following:
I will run Decabol, or Test prop in parallel with  HGH, but as I am  fighting against hairloss (using proscar) which one of those products will help me  building  muscle mass with the lesser sides on my hairs...? Decabol or test prop?
and how much  do I need to  use weekly?
Thanks


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## heavyiron (Oct 31, 2010)

VictorZ06 said:


> I always try to explain myself with these topics the easiest way that I can. I'm not an MD nor am I a scientist, but I do explore and read as much as I can obsorb. I'm sorry if I led you to believe that I knew the exact and precise mechanism that these compounds have in relation to hyperplasia. I used the term "in a nutshell" to outline the basics behind the theory.
> 
> When posting, I really try and use Layman's terms so that others can get an idea of what we are talking about. The three points I laid out were to simplify my reasoning and explanation. I don't think you can object to these points.
> 
> ...


Looks like HGH may be a bust for healthy men after all. Here is an excerpt from a very recent study.

Phys Sportsmed. 2010 Oct;38(3):97-104.

*Anabolic processes in human skeletal muscle: restoring the identities of growth hormone and testosterone.*

West DW, Phillips SM.

*Growth Hormone*

Growth hormone acts both directly through its receptor and indirectly through systemic IGF-1 to regulate a variety of tissues (Figure 2). It is well established that growth and maturation of the musculoskeletal system is mediated by systemic changes in the GH/IGF-1 axis.12 For example, a deficiency or excess of GH during growth can result in overt musculoskeletal changes (eg, slowed or accelerated changes in stature, respectively). Furthermore, GH plays an important role in regulating body composition in adult life; rhGH supplementation in clinically GH-deficient individuals restores ???normal??? fat to lean tissue distribution through decreased fat mass and increased lean tissue assimilation. In addition, GH and muscle mass are reduced in tandem with age, which can lead to an inaccurate interpretation that there is a cause-and-effect relationship. Based on this logic, GH could be viewed as an attractive ergogenic aid to maintain strength and muscle mass in elderly populations. Although GH replacement can be used to recover lean body mass in individuals with clinical GH deficiency, studies by Taaffe et al13,14 revealed that rhGH supplementation did not augment gains in strength or muscle fiber hypertrophy following resistance training in elderly men. These findings are in agreement with studies by Yarasheski et al,15,16 who found that while whole-body protein synthesis was increased, there was no augmentation of muscle protein synthesis with rhGH supplementation in both young and old men. Moreover, in sedentary elderly men, 16 weeks of GH and resistance exercise conferred no added strength gains across 9 exercises versus resistance exercise plus placebo.16 Not surprisingly, there was no difference observed between groups in muscle protein synthesis. Although increases in fat-free mass were greater in the GH group, the authors demonstrated that a disproportionate amount of the mass was because of increased total body water,16 which may be partly due to a hydrating process of newly synthesized connective tissue that equilibrates with extracellular fluid. This is also not surprising because GH acutely and chronically alters the regulation of water and electrolytes by the kidneys, resulting in an expanded extracellular volume.17 

View: (Figure 3 ) - From essential to extraneous: factors that influence skeletal muscle hypertrophy.
http://www.physsportsmed.com/figures...14?figure=1421


There is good evidence that GH can favorably affect body composition by stimulating lipolysis18 and increasing lean body mass. For example, in a 6-month randomized controlled trial in healthy elderly men, administration of low-dose GH significantly increased lean body mass by approximately 2 kg.19 However, the increased mass did not translate into strength changes, implying that GH can promote fluid retention, but not affect functional (ie, strength-promoting) muscle protein accretion. Indeed, GH-induced increases in lean body mass can be misinterpreted as muscle growth, but instead are primarily related to body water retention16 that accompanies the accretion of lean tissue that arises from elevated whole-body protein synthesis. Thus, while using GH as a therapeutic agent in cases of clinical deficiency can help recover muscle mass and strength20 at normal or even supraphysiological levels, anabolic effects are directed toward the synthesis of collagen, not contractile myofibrillar proteins.21 For example, Wallace et al22 reported large increases in markers of bone and soft tissue formation with GH supplementation after acute endurance exercise. These findings are in agreement with the report that 7 days of GH administration stimulated collagen-producing osteoblasts and activated bone remodelling.23 Circulating GH and IGF-1 are thought to also increase collagen synthesis by fibroblasts and increased fibroblast cell division in the extracellular matrix and tendons.24 

*In summary, there is little support for GH having an effect on muscle hypertrophy. Rather, accumulating evidence suggests that GH functions primarily to increase the synthesis of whole-body proteins and connective tissue, in particular increasing water retention and altering body composition. Accordingly, GH supplementation does not increase myofibrillar protein synthesis or muscle strength in healthy individuals. *
*Thus, Figure 3 places GH at the top of the pyramid of factors regulating hypertrophy, indicating that its contribution is negligible.*

*Conflict of Interest Statement*
Daniel W. D. West and Stuart M. Phillips, PhD, FACSM disclose no conflicts of interest.


*References*
Kvorning T, Andersen M, Brixen K, Madsen K. Suppression of endogenous testosterone production attenuates the response to strength training: a randomized, placebo-controlled, and blinded intervention study. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2006;291(6):E1325???E1332.

Hubal MJ, Gordish-Dressman H, Thompson PD, et al. Variability in muscle size and strength gain after unilateral resistance training. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2005;37(6):964???972.

West DW, Burd NA, Tang JE, et al. Elevations in ostensibly anabolic hormones with resistance exercise enhance neither training-induced muscle hypertrophy nor strength of the elbow flexors. J Appl Physiol. 2010;108(1):60???67.

Bhasin S, Storer TW, Berman N, et al. The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men. N Engl J Med. 1996;335(1):1???7.

Sheffield-Moore M. Androgens and the control of skeletal muscle protein synthesis. Ann Med. 2000;32(3):181???186.

Chen Y, Zajac JD, MacLean HE. Androgen regulation of satellite cell function. J Endocrinol. 2005;186(1):21???31.

Griggs RC, Halliday D, Kingston W, Moxley RT 3rd. Effect of testosterone on muscle protein synthesis in myotonic dystrophy. Ann Neurol. 1986;20(5):590???596.

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Daniel W.D. West 1
Stuart M. Phillips, PhD, FACSM 1

1Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Correspondence: Stuart M. Phillips, PhD, FACSM, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, 1280 Main St. West, Hamilton, Ontario, L8S 4K1, Canada.


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## Built (Oct 31, 2010)

This article is a review of existing literature, and may be viewed in its entirety here: http://www.physsportsmed.com/pdf-serve/viewPDF.php?articleID=1814

The authors conclude there is little evidence for the conjecture, but not that there is none, and not that it is not true, just to be clear. 

The authors also fail to distinguish between replacement and supra-physiologic dosing for all but one study - in fact, no mention of actual dosing is made at all, and it is only for Doessing et al (citation 21) where supraphysiologic levels were tested. See abstract posted below; note the dosing:



> *Growth hormone stimulates the collagen synthesis in human tendon and skeletal muscle without affecting myofibrillar protein synthesis*
> 
> 1. Simon Doessing1,
> 2. Katja M. Heinemeier1,
> ...



The highest dosing was 50 μg/kg/day, which for a 200 lb (90kg) man would be 4.5 mg. 

1 mg GH is 3 IU, so this would be a rather profound dose - 13.5 IU daily.

However, it was only administered for 14 days. I don't know anyone who only runs GH for two weeks. 

I remain on the fence. Which is cool, I get to see both sides. 

Carry on.


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## heavyiron (Nov 1, 2010)

Yup, but we know for a fact testosterone increases muscle cell size and number and is cheaper than HGH.

The statement in your above abstract about HGH is hard to overlook.

_Thus, increased GH availability stimulates matrix collagen synthesis in skeletal muscle and tendon, but *without any effect upon myofibrillar protein synthesis.*_


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## VictorZ06 (Nov 1, 2010)

Interesting stuff.  I'm not sure the best of variables were used in the study, but it goes to show.  Good posts guys!!

/V


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## Built (Nov 1, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> Yup, but we know for a fact testosterone increases muscle cell size and number and is cheaper than HGH.


Indeed. Nobody I know ever got jacked off HGH. 


heavyiron said:


> The statement in your above abstract about HGH is hard to overlook.
> 
> _Thus, increased GH availability stimulates matrix collagen synthesis in skeletal muscle and tendon, but *without any effect upon myofibrillar protein synthesis.*_


What I'm interested to know is what effect a longer dosing protocol has on satellite cells. 14 days really doesn't compare with the many-months protocols seen in physical culture.


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## heavyiron (Nov 1, 2010)

Built said:


> Indeed. Nobody I know ever got jacked off HGH.
> 
> What I'm interested to know is what effect a longer dosing protocol has on satellite cells. 14 days really doesn't compare with the many-months protocols seen in physical culture.


 Yeah, I would like to see a longer dosing protocol as well but lets be honest. Protein synthesis probably does not magically happen on day 15+ when there was zero activity before that.


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## Built (Nov 1, 2010)

To be fair, if short term results were profound, we wouldn't see BB running GH for six months at a time either.

I have never read a post on any BB board where the individual ran GH for fourteen days and noted any kind of result at all. 

Did any of these studies even check for satellite cells?


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## heavyiron (Nov 1, 2010)

Built said:


> To be fair, if short term results were profound, we wouldn't see BB running GH for six months at a time either.
> 
> I have never read a post on any BB board where the individual ran GH for fourteen days and noted any kind of result at all.
> 
> Did any of these studies even check for satellite cells?


 Yeah, this has been my position for years. HGH just is not cost effective. You have to run very long cycles to see minor improvements. HGH just is very little bang for the buck. A $50 vial of Testosterone blows away $500 worth of GH everytime.


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## Built (Nov 1, 2010)

heavyiron said:


> Yeah, this has been my position for years. HGH just is not cost effective. You have to run very long cycles to see minor improvements. HGH just is very little bang for the buck. A $50 vial of Testosterone blows away $500 worth of GH everytime.



Except that test is virilizing. GH is not. Other than that, you bet.


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## fredlabrute (Nov 1, 2010)

Personnally,HGH has been worth every dime i spend into it!Did begin to take the stuff(kefeis) about 3 months ago near the end of a cycle and for fist time in my life my pct didn`t feel that long!!!I did keep all the gains from my cycle who was pretty heavy and a big jump from the last one btw,i even had strength increase and i stay at the same weight i had reach on cycle while dropping my bf to an all-time low since my early 20s...Could someone ask for more, my protocol was very simple 4iu first thing in the morning ed...I had better sleep (which usually translate in better recovery)and a very good sense of well-being,for all this reasons,as long as my wallet will allow me to do so,HGH will be a staple in my pct plans!


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