# VPX and the PH ban...



## gopro (Jun 20, 2003)

I've been looking into this matter and have been able to gather some information since this was mentioned in another thread. There is alot of anger, backstabbing, and namecalling going on in the industry right now, which is unfortunate. This creates hatred and even more misinformation. Anyway, here is some of what I was able to gather (this has been paraphrased and was written by someone at VPX)...


Again VPX was first to do a four page spread in the current issue Human Muscle and Performance Magazine to support the USFA that goes against anti-prohormone legislation. Rick Collins of steroidlaw.com who founded this organization, lied and told VPX that they would be included as members in the anti-andro USFA due to this trend setting, high priced article. VPX spent over $15,000 on a four-page spread with unreal graphics, a swat team with automatic weapons and models a photography crew and payed models and laborers thousands of dollars to pass out a record breaking 40,000 publications at the Arnold Classic. Collins F'ed VPX and just used this article to promote his own agenda. Collins and his cronies used all this press to sell steroid law tee shirts and his book which he launched at the Arnold. Collins was overheard  talking trash about VPX, 1-TEST and Jack Owoc by Detective S. Harrison who documented his conversation at the Arnold Classic. He stated that Owoc thinks he's fooling everyone by developing and releasing 1-TEST. And further that Owoc created a real steroid with 1-TEST. You see the USFA is against 1-TEST and VPX and are stupid enough to beleive that if they give up androstenedione to the feds as a sacrificial lamb that the feds will back off. ...and this is what these clowns are planning to do. Since 4 ADione is the parent horomone of most prohoromnes, once this compound is classified illegal, which the USFA is in the process of organizing, then all prohormones derived from this parent horomone will be reclasified as illegal anabolic steroids. The USFA is either really stupid or just on the side of the feds and the anti-andro legislators. Either way VPX doesn't want any part of this ludicrous, Pat Arnold-induced self-serving charade. Of cource Patty supports the USFA because their admitted agenda is to do away with 1-TEST. When this happens Arnold will be sitting pretty with his useless 1-AD.

  Further, when Senator McKain made all kinds of false 

statements to the press about andro killing our 9 year-old kids (during the peak of the war no less), the genuis' at the USFA did nothing. Owoc wanted to take agressive action and file charges against McKain on behalf of all andro-selling supplement companies for these damaging, false and untrue statements.  These statements made by McKain et. al, to the press cause 100'S of thousands of dollars in damages to prohormone seling companies and the USFA did nothing. Again it's just Patty's and his sack sniffin' crew promoting false information to try to defame VPX. VPX has Pat and other jealous companies wrapped up in a phsychological burritto. VPX deservingly owns the protein and prohormone market and is the most cutting edge comapany in all of sports nutrition. Pat's life revolves around trying to defame VPX. While VPX just keeps coming out with innovation after innovation and reducing Arnold's business to nothing. As long as Pat Arnold and his lame crew continue to focus on VPX they will just get further and further behind. 4 -TEST and 1-TEST Cypionate have just about burried these pathetic wannabees. In two more weeks VPX will drop a bomb on the market so powerful that you'll hear the cries of the haters around the globe. Get ready!


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## bigswole30 (Jun 20, 2003)

I knew there was something behind the USFA and VPX. I wondr what the bomb will be that VPX drops next. I wonder how people do not realize that VPX are the leaders of this industry.


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## bigswole30 (Jun 20, 2003)

Also, GOPRO I posted this on BB.com. I hope you do not mind. There have not been many replies so far. It kind of shut people up. Pat Arnold is on the board, but has not commented.


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## gopro (Jun 20, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> Also, GOPRO I posted this on BB.com. I hope you do not mind. There have not been many replies so far. It kind of shut people up. Pat Arnold is on the board, but has not commented.



No problem! Get this info out! Don't worry...Pat of one of his boyz will think of a "clever" reply soon I'm sure!


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## Twin Peak (Jun 20, 2003)

I can't comment on lots of that, and I am not trying to discredit the VPX statement, but here are some things to think about.

1)  There is at least one clear discrepency in that statement.  



> You see the USFA is against 1-TEST and VPX and are stupid enough to beleive that if they give up androstenedione to the feds as a sacrificial lamb that the feds will back off. ...and this is what these clowns are planning to do. Since 4 ADione is the parent horomone of most prohoromnes, once this compound is classified illegal, which the USFA is in the process of organizing, then all prohormones derived from this parent horomone will be reclasified as illegal anabolic steroids.



This is very odd.  First it says the USFA is against 1-test.  This isn't true, since many of the members sell 1-test products.  Second it says that USFA will "give up androstendione" a parent prohormone.  Andro, as we all know is not a parent of 1-test.  Andro was the first PH to come out (developed by Pat Arnold). 1-test is certainly not a derivative of this, indeed, if anything, 1-test is higher on the food chain.   Third, what exactly is derived from 4 adione?  Not much.  Maybe 4-Adiol.

Then it states:



> Of cource Patty supports the USFA because their admitted agenda is to do away with 1-TEST. When this happens Arnold will be sitting pretty with his useless 1-AD.



Again this is inconsistent.  First, if his agenda was to do away with 1-test, why would they offer to give up "4-adiol."  That makes no sense.  Second, if 4-adione was made illegal, you can bet your ass 1-AD will be illegal as well.  Indeed, if anything, as stated above 4-adione may be a parent to 1AD.  So explain this.

2)  Whats this 4-Test business?  I have never heard of such an animal.  Please explain.


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## bigswole30 (Jun 20, 2003)

You make a good argument. As for the 4-test. It is actullay how they are describing their new 4-ad CYP. He says it converts to test. Maybe just another name to sound like an AAS. Who knows. I know I posted it over at BB.com and it is going over like a whore in church.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 20, 2003)

That is really poor marketing tactic, IMO.

The called there 1-test product 1-TEST, which I am sure was to make it sound like they developed (i.e. trademarked the name, big whoop) 1-test.  Still, not such a big deal as at least its accurate.

We all know that 1-test though is an actual steroid and does not need to be converted.

Contrast that to EVERY prohormone (4-diol, 1, 4 diol, 1 ad, 19-Nor, etc.) which ALL are converted by enzymes in the body to a steroid.  Hence the term PRO-HORMONE.

So what makes their 4-diol cyp any different?  Sounds like from you post -- NOTHING.  Thus, naming it 4-TEST, to sound like an actual steroid that needs no conversion, IMO is misleading.

I know that it always comes off as I am a VPX basher.  I am not.  I have used their products.  I think there products are decent.

I just think:

1) they are on the wrong side of the PH fight, and that above statement does nothing to pursuad me otherwise, particularly since it is filled will glaring inaccuracies and they try to make a big deal about handing out free company mags/brouchures, which happened to have an anti-ban ad.  And it turns out they ALWAYS give that mag away for free for marketing purposes.  It sounds a bit odd, after knowing this that they condemned Rick Collins for also pitching his stuff.

2)  I hate their product names, as they are always intended to sound like drugs (EQ.....).  And their marketing.


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## Mudge (Jun 20, 2003)

If the above is true it makes me think alot less of Collins, and makes the whole organization look like they are trying to eat thier own foot. The ignorance of the situation would make me very angry.


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## bigswole30 (Jun 20, 2003)

Once again Twin Peak. I have no argument with you. I also want to applaude for the way you respond with respect. Others on BB.com have nothing better to do than call names. I am glad to see someone in the industry is better than that. Also, I got the email from Justin. Thanks.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 20, 2003)

Good.  I had been bugging him for a week.


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## ZECH (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> 
> Again VPX was first to do a four page spread in the current issue Human Muscle and Performance Magazine to support the USFA that goes against anti-prohormone legislation.
> 
> ...


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## gopro (Jun 23, 2003)

*Re: Re: VPX and the PH ban...*



> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> 
> 
> > _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> ...


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## Twin Peak (Jun 23, 2003)

Fat salaries?  USFA is a not for profit org.  

But all I hear is "blah vlah blah, politics, blah blah."

There is still not a single shred of evidence that VPX has done OR IS DOING anything to stop the ban.  You haven't even argued this, just said that it won't support a corrupt organization.  If it is the heralded leader, then shouldn't it be doinf comething?  ANYTHING???


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## gopro (Jun 23, 2003)

Again VPX was first to do a four page spread in the current issue Human Muscle and Performance Magazine to support the USFA that goes against anti-prohormone legislation. Rick Collins of steroidlaw.com who founded this organization, lied and told VPX that they would be included as members in the anti-andro USFA due to this trend setting, high priced article. VPX spent over $15,000 on a four-page spread with unreal graphics, a swat team with automatic weapons and models a photography crew and payed models and laborers thousands of dollars to pass out a record breaking 40,000 publications at the Arnold Classic. 

VPX DELIVERED 175,000 MAGS WITH THE COVER AND A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF THE INSIDE DEVOTED TO THE ANTI-ANDRO CAUSE. YOU ARE SILLY IF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT A MONUMENTAL FINANCIAL AND PHYSICAL WORK-RELATED COMITTMENT THIS TAKES. THIS IS FAR MORE INVOLVEMENT  THAN ALL THE OTHER SUPPLEMNTS COMPANIES COMBINED!


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## 1Fast400 (Jun 23, 2003)

You guys are so sad.  People standing on the sidelines, thinking they know what they are talking about.  Figuring I'm an officer of the USFA, I know more about this situation than any of you.  I can assure you, your perceived "facts" are very wrong.  So sad a few idiots can take a rumor and spread it so fast this day in time.


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## 1Fast400 (Jun 23, 2003)

The ad they did was nothing more than an ad for their stuff.  How does it cost 15k to run an article in a magazine that you own?


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## Twin Peak (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> VPX DELIVERED 175,000 MAGS WITH THE COVER AND A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF THE INSIDE DEVOTED TO THE ANTI-ANDRO CAUSE. YOU ARE SILLY IF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT A MONUMENTAL FINANCIAL AND PHYSICAL WORK-RELATED COMITTMENT THIS TAKES. THIS IS FAR MORE INVOLVEMENT  THAN ALL THE OTHER SUPPLEMNTS COMPANIES COMBINED!



Gopro, this is a VPX magazine, that advertizes VPX products, that is regularly published by VPX and regularly given out by VPX free.

I know many people who have seen free copies distributed regularly at there gyms, and supplement stores etc. It is a regular form of advertising.  From what I gather, all they have done is added a four page ad in one issue.

Have they asked their customers to send letters to there congressmen?  Have they supplied them with form letters?  Have they provided contact info?  Have they collected letters and forwarded them on?  Have they hired a lobbist firm?  Have they had discussions with congress?  Have they spent and other money in any of these efforts?


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## ZECH (Jun 23, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: VPX and the PH ban...*



> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> 
> 
> 1-AD IS VASTLY INFERIOR TO 1-TEST. WHAT DOES 1-AD NEED TO CONVERT TO TO BE ACTIVE...1-TEST! ITS EASY TO DO THE MATH.


I think we have had this discussion. I think more people will vote 1-ad than 1-test. Not saying some people would not get better results from 1-test though. Lets make this a poll...........


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## 1Fast400 (Jun 23, 2003)

> 1-AD IS VASTLY INFERIOR TO 1-TEST. WHAT DOES 1-AD NEED TO CONVERT TO TO BE ACTIVE...1-TEST! ITS EASY TO DO THE MATH.



Riggggggght.  Which is why 1-AD sells more than any PH out there.  Your lack of understanding on this subject is mindboggling.


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## gopro (Jun 23, 2003)

TP, 1-Fast, Dg....

I am very reluctant to carry on this dialogue because the responses, although paraphrased by me, are not actually COMING from me. I am speaking with reps of VPX and they are giving me their words/feelings on the matter.

Truth is, this is NOT my area of expertise and I don't really have time for it. I am a fitness/nutrition/supplement expert and not a politician.

I'd like to leave this disscussion to those that are really involved. This is not part of my job and I don't want it to be.


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## 1Fast400 (Jun 23, 2003)

Then you shouldn't speak those words as if they were your on.  Taking crap information and having a good guy spread it still makes the information crap, just remember that.


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## gopro (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by 1Fast400 *_
> Then you shouldn't speak those words as if they were your on.  Taking crap information and having a good guy spread it still makes the information crap, just remember that.



Ok, first, I NEVER said the words were crap...in fact, many of your words are crap my opinion. Second, I do not have to spell it out as to who is saying what, I just need to present the information. Since you and a few others have their point of view on this matter...and that is all that it is, A POINT OF VIEW FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE...I will absolutely present VPXs point of view as well. I know you are so damn sure you are right and VPX is wrong but sorry, it just ain't that simple...and anyone with a brain can see that. So, you will get all the info I can get whether it comes from me or from someone else.

And as to 1-AD being better than 1-Test...this is one area that I CAN speak to...bull! Maybe on YOUR SITE 1-AD outsells 1-Test, but your site is but one small fish in a BIG pond.

I agree that 1-AD is an excellent product, but I have watch time and time again as 1-Test (from a good company) has outperformed it by at least 25% or more.


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## gopro (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> 
> Have they asked their customers to send letters to there congressmen?  Have they supplied them with form letters?  Have they provided contact info?  Have they collected letters and forwarded them on?  Have they hired a lobbist firm?  Have they had discussions with congress?  Have they spent and other money in any of these efforts?





 YES VPX DID AN 80.000 LTR MAILOUT TO ALL OF THEIR CUSTOMERS WITH FORM LETTERS AND INTR. WITH MAILING INFO TO THEIR CUSTOMERS. AGAIN TEN TIMES MORE THAN AVANT LABS, 1FAST 400, ERGOPHARM ETC....


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## 1Fast400 (Jun 23, 2003)

> And as to 1-AD being better than 1-Test...this is one area that I CAN speak to...bull! Maybe on YOUR SITE 1-AD outsells 1-Test, but your site is but one small fish in a BIG pond.




haha, thank you for once again, not only knowing the sales volume of distributors, but you now know the sales volume of my store.  I'm glad you know that I'm a small fish in a big pond, jesus.



> I know you are so damn sure you are right and VPX is wrong but sorry, it just ain't that simple




You know why I don't talk about brain surgery, because I don't know anything about it.  You should do the same on this topic.


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## Arnold (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> I am very reluctant to carry on this dialogue because the responses, although paraphrased by me, are not actually COMING from me. I am speaking with reps of VPX and they are giving me their words/feelings on the matter.
> 
> Truth is, this is NOT my area of expertise and I don't really have time for it. I am a fitness/nutrition/supplement expert and not a politician.
> ...



Ask the VPX person that is giving you the info to register here.


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## gopro (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by 1Fast400 *_
> haha, thank you for once again, not only knowing the sales volume of distributors, but you now know the sales volume of my store.  I'm glad you know that I'm a small fish in a big pond, jesus.
> 
> Oh I'm sorry 1-Fast...I forgot that you are the leader in the industry. Believe me, I am quite privy to the sales of all chains of stores in my area as well as to the sales of many online wharehousing companies. And regardless, 1-AD is not in the same league as 1-Test. 1-AD is oooooold news.
> ...



Sorry, your one-sided viewpoints will not rule the day my friend. I understand all of the VPX bashing...thats what happens to companies of all types that are at the top.


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## ZECH (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Ask the VPX person that is giving you the info to register here.


Great idea!


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## 1Fast400 (Jun 23, 2003)

> Sorry, your one-sided viewpoints will not rule the day my friend.



hahahaahah, you are to funny.  VPX is not on top.  You know they had serious money issues last year and let go a lot of their staff because of this.  They just lost europa as a distributor and they now make all their stuff in house, which I'm sure the quality control is great on.  This company is a disaster and we will be out of business when the PH ban goes through.


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## Eggs (Jun 23, 2003)

This thread has lost any merit that it had.  Its become a flame war.  I'm disappointed... and I'm certainly disappointed in 1Fast400 (if you are indeed an employee or owner of the company) for participating in this mud slinging as I believed them to be more professional than what I have just witnessed.

Guess I had that one coming.  Thanks for the wake up call.

Seriously though, act more professional or I'll start buying from another site.  I like yours and you've always been good with my orders, but if you want to act in this manner, I wont support a business that refuses to act like one.  You may say "Oh well, only one customer."  Heres some news, we "only one customers" add up.


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## ZECH (Jun 23, 2003)

Oh so an owner of a company can't have an opinion. He has called no one names. Neither has GP. A debate like this is good in my opinion. The more info you can get from different sides, helps you make your mind up as to who is or is not doing what! I hope no one takes offense to this thread though. I think everyone just has strong feelings about the subject. And it is very critical as to the outcome I may add for many people!


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## Eggs (Jun 23, 2003)

Quote : "hahahaahah, you are to funny"

Yeah, really professional DG.

And no, the owner of a company cant have an opinion.  Hello, look around you to any business that is huge.  Do you see the owner spouting off?  No, its called "not being professional".  I'm not sure what you do for a living DG, but I'm kinda surprised that this doesnt make sense to you.  

Oh well, to each his/her own.


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## ZECH (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> Hello, look around you to any business that is huge.  Do you see the owner spouting off?


You need to go to BB.com then!!! There are plenty of splats between PA and BL and Calab. But this doesn't make them bad people or bad business people. They are trying to protect their business which is what anyone would do! That shows me they believe in their product. If they don't defend it, then I would worry!


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## Twin Peak (Jun 23, 2003)

Eggs, I am sorry but you are wrong here.  GoPro, by proliferating statements by alleged VPX persons, is calling into question the integrity of those who run the not for profit organization of USFA -- whose only purpose is to fight the potential prohormone ban.

In calling into the integrity of USFA he is indirectly calling into doubt the integrity of 1fast400 as he is a corporate executive of USFA.

He is more than allowed to defend himself.  Moreover, none of his statements have been opinions but fact (except the argument over which is the better PH).


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## bigswole30 (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by 1Fast400 *_
> hahahaahah, you are to funny.  VPX is not on top.  You know they had serious money issues last year and let go a lot of their staff because of this.  They just lost europa as a distributor and they now make all their stuff in house, which I'm sure the quality control is great on.  This company is a disaster and we will be out of business when the PH ban goes through.



1fast, it is my understanding that VPX dropped Europa not the other way around. As for money issues I think you are off. They recently fired some employees for contract reasons. I also know that VPX recently hired two well-known European chemists. One of which co-developed the new cypionated prohormones. VPX in-houses facilities are cGMP regulated.


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## Mudge (Jun 23, 2003)

If someone cannot make a statement without being pissy, it makes them look childish IMO - and I have seen that in this thread. I want to see facts, not pee fights.


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## Eggs (Jun 23, 2003)

1Fast400s products were never in question here... until he stepped in.  If you want to defend what you do, you sit down and think through what you want to say... put a polite and official spin on it, and then send it out.  You dont do rash things that casue people to dislike or loose their trust in you or your product (which are often the same thing).

As to other boards doing it... yeah, and remember IA at MM.com?  Theres a good reason why I'm no longer there... he being it.  Thats one example of how to loose customers.


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## Eggs (Jun 23, 2003)

Okay TP, I got you on that... and I apologize to 1Fast400 for not knowing the facts about that.

My statement regarding being professional still stands though TP, or do you think that this thread has lived up to a standard of excellence which should be prevelant among businesses in the Supplement field?


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## bigswole30 (Jun 23, 2003)

I have always admired 1fast for what he has given to the supplement field. In fact he helped me out when I was starting my supplement store. However, I do not like the attitude he has taken on in this thread on here and bb.com. There will always be two sides to every story and when someone has a different view than you they are not neccesarily wrong. Maybe VPX is fighting the ban in a private manner. Who knows?


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## Twin Peak (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> Okay TP, I got you on that... and I apologize to 1Fast400 for not knowing the facts about that.
> 
> My statement regarding being professional still stands though TP, or do you think that this thread has lived up to a standard of excellence which should be prevelant among businesses in the Supplement field?



Perhaps, and perhaps not.  I could be jaded, being friends with Mike.

I found it interesting though that you only commented on Mike's behavior, and all the while GP was, IMO, less "business like" as you put it, passing on half information from another without having any first hand information, and you made no mention of this.  You do realize that he is AN EMPLOYEE of VPX?  He should be held to whatever standards you are applying.

In addition, as I said, I can understand where Mike is coming from.  Mike is a very busy person who is spending his own money and his own time to help USFA fight the ban.

Then along comes someone who has third hand information that is obviously littered with half truths (I pointed this out several times, to which I received NO response, and I am just a third party witness, and it was obvious that the alleged stamement could not possibily be true), and this third person not only calls into question the time and money you spend and your dedication to an issue, but calls you a liar, and/or stupid, and calls your integrity into doubt?

Hell, I'd be pissy too.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> I have always admired 1fast for what he has given to the supplement field. In fact he helped me out when I was starting my supplement store. However, I do not like the attitude he has taken on in this thread on here and bb.com. There will always be two sides to every story and when someone has a different view than you they are not neccesarily wrong. Maybe VPX is fighting the ban in a private manner. Who knows?



Basedon the statements GP posted in starting this thread, there is clearly a right and a wrong.


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## Eggs (Jun 23, 2003)

Perhaps you're right TP, but as a customer of 1Fast400... I addressed him as his comments concern me more.  Dont get me wrong though, I think that GP should take a break from this thread as well, he is getting irritated and its not to his benefit.

Perhaps you'd be pissy if someone did that to you... but I'd hope that you would handle yourself in such a manner as to make others look up to you and respect you for your replies.  Anybody can blow his lid and act the idiot, I know, I do it all the time... but it takes someone with class and business savvy to look beyond the current topic and to do what is good for himself in the long run.  In this case, the best thing that 1Fast400 could do is to write an answer to any discrepancies that he sees... sit on it for a couple hours and let the steam go, then revisit the topic and if his answer still suits him then post it.

I've lived in enough countries, hung out with enough of the right people, and studied enough business to have a solid grasp on this topic.  Proper etiquette must be followed if one wants to make a positive impact on others.  They'll respect you for that a hundred times more so than they will a cutting reply, even if one thinks it deserved.


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## Dale Mabry (Jun 23, 2003)

I find this a good discussion and both participants very passionate about what they believe to be the truth.  That being said, no one has given any evidence to support their version of the story so I would say neither one is right or wrong.


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## 1Fast400 (Jun 23, 2003)

VPX doesn't list GMP certification on their products, I have them right here.  I was on the phone at length today with a VPX rep, him having no idea who I am.  The lies that spilled from his mouth were unreal.  In particular about the USFA.  As stated I'm an officer of that organization, being so allows me to have access to information that none of you know about.  I know for a 100% fact that VPX is lying about numerous issues.  How?  Because I either witness or had a hand in writing various statements to VPX concering the USFA.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> Perhaps you're right TP, but as a customer of 1Fast400... I addressed him as his comments concern me more.  Dont get me wrong though, I think that GP should take a break from this thread as well, he is getting irritated and its not to his benefit.
> 
> Perhaps you'd be pissy if someone did that to you... but I'd hope that you would handle yourself in such a manner as to make others look up to you and respect you for your replies.  Anybody can blow his lid and act the idiot, I know, I do it all the time... but it takes someone with class and business savvy to look beyond the current topic and to do what is good for himself in the long run.  In this case, the best thing that 1Fast400 could do is to write an answer to any discrepancies that he sees... sit on it for a couple hours and let the steam go, then revisit the topic and if his answer still suits him then post it.
> ...



I am not saying that I disagree with your opinion, or say that you are not entitled to your opinion, as a customer.

I am merely trying put some things into there proper perspective, which, based on your reply, I think I have done.


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## 1Fast400 (Jun 23, 2003)

I have an opinion, if it makes me lose customers for not being PC about a topic, then I just may lose a customer.  I know they are lying as do all members of the USFA.


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## Eggs (Jun 23, 2003)

Hehe, that was an open ended statement TP  I'm not sure whether to nod my head in understanding or be insulted


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## Dale Mabry (Jun 23, 2003)

I don't doubt your credentials, I am just one of those folks who needs to see it for himself before I believe anything.  In the end, it's all just spin doctoring anyway.  I could say I monetarily supported the war but, in reality, all I did was pay taxes which help pay for defense.  

On a side note, I have no idea about your business, but I would have trouble believing you would lose any business based on any of your statements.  I think I will go check out your site now, your scandalous, politically incorrect statements have garnered interest from me.  No publicity is bad publicity.


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## Eggs (Jun 23, 2003)

In the words of Socrates - Opinions are like assholes.  Everyone has one... some peoples existance can be summed up theirs.

Hrm, was that Socrates, I forget 

Why dont you stop giving us your opinion and give us some facts... some meat with our dinner.  I just had a little chicken and am somehow left unsatisfied.  A logical argument requires that you do not deal with opinions, beliefs, etc.  If you  present anything less than a logical argument in your defense then you are doing us a disservice, and you are selling yourself short.  I'm quite sure you have it in you to be convincing, but an Argument against the person is not the way to go about it.  Convince us with your facts... I'd like to think the day of following others blindly because they spout pretty words were left behind with Hitler and those like him.

So, once again...  Why should we believe you?


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## Eggs (Jun 23, 2003)

LOL Dale, guess you're right with that... publicity does get the word out, good or bad you'll have people beating down your door to lean more about you.  We're so predictable


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## bigswole30 (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by 1Fast400 *_
> VPX doesn't list GMP certification on their products, I have them right here.  I was on the phone at length today with a VPX rep, him having no idea who I am.  The lies that spilled from his mouth were unreal.  In particular about the USFA.  As stated I'm an officer of that organization, being so allows me to have access to information that none of you know about.  I know for a 100% fact that VPX is lying about numerous issues.  How?  Because I either witness or had a hand in writing various statements to VPX concering the USFA.



Cool. I aklso talk to a VPX rep everyday and he points out some very interesting things to me. There products are cGMP approved. I do not know why it is not listed. I am visiting VPX is two weeks. I will see first hand what kind of operation they are running. Maybe you all do not like their reasons for not joining the USFA, but that is their right. I do know they care about the ban. 

1fast, if you do not mind telling what are some of the outright lies you were told today? Just curious.


----------



## ZECH (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by 1Fast400 *_
> I was on the phone at length today with a VPX rep, him having no idea who I am.  The lies that spilled from his mouth were unreal.  In particular about the USFA.


Can you elaborate any on this???


----------



## mda1125 (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Eggs *_
> In the words of Socrates - Opinions are like assholes.  Everyone has one... some peoples existance can be summed up theirs.
> 
> Hrm, was that Socrates, I forget



If opinions are like assholes, and every one's got them, do some stink more than others?

Pretty good commentary on that quote at this site:

http://www.hissyfit.com/wing_chun/1999_04_04.shtml

It was not Socrates.. nobody seems to give credit to whomever came up with that quote.


----------



## ZECH (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> I will see first hand what kind of operation they are running. Maybe you all do not like their reasons for not joining the USFA, but that is their right. I do know they care about the ban.


Or is it they care about making money first as fast as they can before the ban kicks in??? I just still do not see it.......VPX biggest market share is in PH's. Why would they not join with USFA and join the fight to protect Ph's???


----------



## bigswole30 (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Or is it they care about making money first as fast as they can before the ban kicks in??? I just still do not see it.......VPX biggest market share is in PH's. Why would they not join with USFA and join the fight to protect Ph's???




Who knows? You are right when you say they make their money from prohormone sales. I am going to quote an email I recieved from my VPX source so you all can pick away at it as you want:

>What do you think of the PH ban? Is it close or not? If it takes
>place will
>VPX be in trouble?
No ban will happen! PA is trying to make money too(think about it!) His
lawyers are busy with us as we speak on other issues (can say no more
for our best intrest))

On a side note, Mike do you have any pics of your new store since moving in?


----------



## ZECH (Jun 23, 2003)

I think alot of people will be hurt if the ban goes into effect! Not just VPX. Sure everyone is making money now, but not if the ban goes into effect. So why not join together and prevent it? And I personally do not know what Vpx is doing. My comments are based on what I hear and see. And most is not good. And to say that the ban will not happen is stupid! It WILL if we don't fight it!


----------



## Mudge (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by mda1125 *_
> It was not Socrates.. nobody seems to give credit to whomever came up with that quote.



Seeing how "asshole" was probably not used in Socrates' time, I imagine that was a joke.


----------



## mda1125 (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Seeing how "asshole" was probably not used in Socrates' time, I imagine that was a joke.




Yes.  I know.  I was just trying to be an asshole.

hehe


----------



## Twin Peak (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by mda1125 *_
> Yes.  I know.  I was just trying to be an asshole.
> 
> hehe



Don't worry Marc, you already qualify.


----------



## mda1125 (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Don't worry Marc, you already qualify.




Will you be sending me my diploma this week?  I did take your 8 week course you know.


----------



## Twin Peak (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by mda1125 *_
> Will you be sending me my diploma this week?  I did take your 8 week course you know.



Any day now.  You'll note the summa cum laude stamp, which was well earned.


----------



## mda1125 (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Any day now.  You'll note the summa cum laude stamp, which was well earned.




Hey.. did you join the same frat I did.  Familiar sounding stamp?  It was in the Western Region of Sugma Cock?

Are we frat brothers?


----------



## Jodi (Jun 23, 2003)

Sorry to interrupt but that was funny!


----------



## ZECH (Jun 23, 2003)

This is a list of companies, that sell PH's I know of that support USFA. If you know of any you definately know support USFA, please add them.
BIOTEST (www.BiotestEdge.com) 
ERGOPHARM / LPJ RESEARCH (www.Ergopharm.com) 
SCI-FIT NUTRITION (www.ScifitAuthentic.com) 
AVANT LABS (www.AvantLabs.com) 
NUTREX (www.Nutrex.com) 
MOLECULAR NUTRITION (www.MolecularNutrition.net) 
SAN NUTRITION (www.sann.net) 
IMPACT NUTRITION (www.impactnutrition.com)


----------



## Freeman (Jun 23, 2003)

VPX has nifty packaging...  I like blue bottles!


----------



## Eggs (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by freeman1504 *_
> I like blue balls!



Freeman... you so crazy...


----------



## Freeman (Jun 23, 2003)




----------



## 1Fast400 (Jun 23, 2003)

Comments on the phone:

 about the 1-t cyp and 4ad cyp being meant only for oral use.  

comments in regards as to what the USFA asked for when talking with VPX

That studies are done on every product VPX makes (by vpx)

Do I need to go on?

Oh as far as the comment about the ban not happening.  Whoever said that is a fvcking idiot.  These things will be gone inside of 8-10 months (meaning 1-T and possible the precursors).  I'll bet my store on it.


----------



## bigswole30 (Jun 23, 2003)

I am certain the CYPS are meant for oral use. 

As for studies they perform on their products I do not know. They do something because they are very effective.

 As for VPX and the USFA that will go on and on. 

1fast, I am curious to your side. Did VPX have a falling out with Rick Collins or did they just refuse to contribute to the organization.


----------



## 1Fast400 (Jun 23, 2003)

> Did VPX have a falling out with Rick Collins or did they just refuse to contribute to the organization.



Rick has gone way beyond the call of seperating his business from the USFA.  Obviously he could use myself and many others as outlets to push his book and so on, as you can see we don't do it.  VPX was present a pack at the arnold about donation.  We are not talking millions of dollars.  To become a base member of the USFA, it cost 1000 bucks a month.  Wow, that sure is a lot of money.  VXP has choosen not to donate for whatever reason.  VPX just won't donate.  They are obviously here to ONLY make a buck a nothing else.  

If VPX meant for the cyp to be oral, why are they unflavored?


----------



## bigswole30 (Jun 23, 2003)

I do not know why they are unflavored but I will find out. I have seen bloodwork from someone who was on the test study team for the CYP. Yes it was a VPX employee, but the results were astounding. He took it orally. I will see if he will post the results.

1fast, if you have such a problem with VPX why do you carry them? I am just wondering.


----------



## 1Fast400 (Jun 23, 2003)

I'm still a business.


----------



## bigswole30 (Jun 23, 2003)

One more thing. I do not know if you noticed earlier. Do you have any pics pf your new store since adding all the inventory. I know this is off topic, but yor store should look awesome.


----------



## bigswole30 (Jun 23, 2003)

If VPX meant for the cyp to be oral, why are they unflavored? [/QUOTE]


Here is what I was told. They are meant for oral usage, but safe for injection. VPX had to protect their ass because they knew someone would want to inject them. I was told I could take it either way but injecting them would not improve the effectiveness. I recieved this product for free and I will give give honest feedback. I will be taking 1cc per day of the 1-test cyp.


----------



## Twin Peak (Jun 23, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> If VPX meant for the cyp to be oral, why are they unflavored?
> 
> Here is what I was told. They are meant for oral usage, but safe for injection. VPX had to protect their ass because they knew someone would want to inject them. I was told I could take it either way but injecting them would not improve the effectiveness. I recieved this product for free and I will give give honest feedback. I will be taking 1cc per day of the 1-test cyp.



Lets get real for a minute.  No oral substance will be as effective if it was injected.  That's ludicrious.

Now that we have put this behind us, isn't it obvious why they "claim its for oral use" but then make it possible (by not adding flavoring) to be injected?  Because if it is know that the intent is for injection, it is no longer a "supplement" under the DSHEA but rather a "drug" and regulated as such.  They are trying to cover their asses, but leave the door open for injectible use.  This is a huge blow, as when the FDA figures this out the product will be gone, and they will be all over VPX.  If it truly was as effective oral, the would in fact DISCOURAGE injectibale use by putting a flavoring system in it, so that it CAN't be injected and further insulating them from FDA attack.

BS, your arguments are illogocal here, sorry.  Think it through.


----------



## gopro (Jun 23, 2003)

I can't believe the crap being spewed by some people in this thread. It is just getting ridiculous. There is so much underlying hatred, jealousy, and personal agenda going on here that it makes the validity of alot of this thread go down the tubes.

Of course I know that some of the clowns will come back with some "smart ass" remark, but I really don't give a SH%T anymore. I am not going to continue to waste my time debating politics with everyone.

What are 99% of members here interested in...RESULTS!! THAT is the bottom line and THAT is what VPXs creatine, proteins, fat burners, and PHs provide. 

I gave a few people over at VPX the address here if they want to come here and add to this debate, but I am done with it because my focus is on helping people achieve their goals, and that is what I will spend my time doing.

Enjoy flaming me...enjoy your VPX bashing...enjoy whatever childish nonsense you want to involve yourself in...BYE...


----------



## Freeman (Jun 23, 2003)

GoPro, I still love ya man!   Even if I had an opinion on this topic, which I don't because I have never used either products, or even researched them much at all, I'd still respect you and VPX as well as 1Fast400.com b/c I buy my stuff from them usually.  I don't use VPX, but I have tried their MRPs and clenbutrix (which tastes like poop!) and was impressed.  It's a shame that people must let personal feelings come out in such a way.  GoPro RULES, and so does 1FAST400.com IMO.  So there!  I'll have it both ways thank you very much!


----------



## Eggs (Jun 23, 2003)

Thats what I'm talking about Freeman... we can order from 1Fast400, chat with Gopro... and ignore any squabbling that breaks out in the ranks.

You know what bothers me about the FDA trying to take supplements off the market?  Every year thousands of people die from drunk drivers... and yet they continue to sell alcohol everywhere.  How can they possibly overlook that and yet whine about supplements in any fashion?  Its hypocritical and it makes me think that its a bunch of fat nasty pencil pushers who are doing this regulating.  I hope they choke on their twinkies


----------



## ZECH (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> 
> Here is what I was told. They are meant for oral usage, but safe for injection. VPX had to protect their ass because they knew someone would want to inject them.


Here is my take on this. If it is safe for injection, is it not sterile? If it wasn't, I sure wouldn't inject it. And to go the extra step to make it sterile, it has to cost more money, right? There are dozens of products out right now that are not made sterile by companies in case some idiot wants to inject. There will always be those fools out there! But for VPX to go there, just proves to me that it is intended for that use! And like TP said, anything taken orally, most will get filtered by the liver before it gets into the blood.


----------



## gopro (Jun 24, 2003)

One more comment b/c of the last two posts...there is no reason to not order products from 1-Fast. If they are providing you with good prices/service than YOU SHOULD use them. And that just goes to my point. We want results, plain and simple. If 1-Fast or any other site provides you with what you need and do it in a fast and efficient manner that is all we care about.

Oh, and Freeman...I love you too man!!


----------



## bigswole30 (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Lets get real for a minute.  No oral substance will be as effective if it was injected.  That's ludicrious.
> 
> Now that we have put this behind us, isn't it obvious why they "claim its for oral use" but then make it possible (by not adding flavoring) to be injected?  Because if it is know that the intent is for injection, it is no longer a "supplement" under the DSHEA but rather a "drug" and regulated as such.  They are trying to cover their asses, but leave the door open for injectible use.  This is a huge blow, as when the FDA figures this out the product will be gone, and they will be all over VPX.  If it truly was as effective oral, the would in fact DISCOURAGE injectibale use by putting a flavoring system in it, so that it CAN't be injected and further insulating them from FDA attack.
> ...




Maybe Jack Owoc and his master chemists that he employs stumbled onto something that every other player in the PH industry has overlooked. I too am a skeptic, but I do admit there are other genuises besides Pat, Par and Bill. Some of you fail to recognize that. Maybe the reason there is no flavoring system is so there is the possibilty of injection. That does not mean that is what it is intended for. Take Reforvit-B(liquid D-BOL). It cab be injected or taken orally and is equally effective either way. You all need to think outside of the box for a little bit. 
Onece again, I will be taking it orally and speek on its effectiveness. If it surpasses 1-test propylcarbonate which is the best 1-test product on the market as of now IMO it will certainly set the standard for prohormones to come.


----------



## ZECH (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> Maybe the reason there is no flavoring system is so there is the possibilty of injection. That does not mean that is what it is intended for.


Why even make it safe for injection? All you are going to do is get the FDA down your throat and risk the whole market being torn down.


----------



## ZECH (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> If it surpasses 1-test propylcarbonate which is the best 1-test product on the market as of now IMO it will certainly set the standard for prohormones to come.


Who makes this product?


----------



## bigswole30 (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Who makes this product?



VPX of course. I do not think anyone else is using propylcarbonate esters. However some people think it is a knockoff of Bill Roberts ethylcarbonate ester(Mag-10). What a joke. As for why it was made safe for injection I will know the answer today. I will post exactly what I am told.


----------



## Freeman (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_Oh, and Freeman...I love you too man!!


----------



## ZECH (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> VPX of course. I do not think anyone else is using propylcarbonate esters. However some people think it is a knockoff of Bill Roberts ethylcarbonate ester(Mag-10). What a joke. As for why it was made safe for injection I will know the answer today. I will post exactly what I am told.


Looking forward to the reasoning!


----------



## bigswole30 (Jun 24, 2003)

Here is some info I have found about VPX 1-test CYP as an oral.

 The molecule size is insignificant. The cyp ester will increase absorption slightly from the studies I've seen (with oral consumption). However, the VPX cyp ester is encased in a liposome, so were comparing apples to oranges here. The ester is immediately cleaved off of the molecule once it enters the blood stream. But if the molecule is protected from exposure by a liposome, this will prevent cleaving of the ester. 

Well, Here's what I think, in order for a "CYP" to work in a liposome, it will have to be Polymer instead. My guess it will release at both ends once released into the blood stream, lasting for about 2 days max! Yes, it is very possiable and knowing VPX (tropicana-no propaganda here, that word is used mainly for dictaitors, fakes, and losers like Saddam) far from which VPX is) and their extreme envople pushing supplements, In the real world this should work. And if it does-WATCH OUT! I wonder if the FDA would allow such a thing, because in theroy, it is possiable there could be more then one use for a polymer in this case.

Interestingly, no oral AASs utilize a cyponiate modification. Rather, it's used to make compounds more lipophilic, resulting in the formation of a depot in the tissue/muscle causing slower release into the bloodstream. Oral AASs utilize methylation to protect it from degredation by the liver. The drawback with certain types of methylation (17-aa) is that it is stressful on the liver.

Does anyone know of any studies that demonstrate that ester attachment protects compounds from degredation by liver enzymes? Has it been shown that with liposomal delivery of cyp-modified PHs there is an increase in the t 1/2? Sorry if I'm sounding skeptical, but I was just wondering why steroid manufacturers (pharmaceutical firms) don't do the same thing.

I'll check out the VPX website.

Maybe the next big thing with be methylated 1-test/4-AD. I bet the FDA would love that.
BUMP! on that bigflee

What if they used a lipophilic delivery system that didn't release a liposome but a new breed of ploymer? which wasn't on any pharmacitcal methylated patent? But consisted of a foodbase orgin? like a dense fat molocule that was encased by the cypinated polymer, which just made some sort of single pass by the liver enzymes? and had a very slow half life?

This was posted by A vpx employee.

BUMP TOO

ACTUALLY, I UNDERSTAND QUITE A BIT, BUT SOMETIMES ACTING STUPID AND LEADING OTHERS TO ANSWER QUESTIONS HELPS EVERYONE ON BOARDS LEARN MORE.
OF COURSE I KNOW WHAT A CYPONIATE EASTER IS, BUT SINCE I KNOW A LITTLE TOO MUCH ON THIS ONE PICTICULAR SUBJECT I MUST/CAN NOT LET THE CAT OUT OF THE BAG TOO SOON
BUT JUST WAIT TILL THIS PRODUCT HITS THE SHELFS, IT WILL CHANGE THE PATH OF THE PH'S TODAYS SUPPLEMENT INDUSTRY AND LEAVING OTHER COMPANIES SCRAMMBLING TO GET IN THE GAME! PH'S AS KNOW IT MUST GROW AND BECOME MORE EFFECTIVE, SO WE MUST KEEP STUDYING HARDER AND FIND TRUTH IN MUSCLE GAINS LEGALY- TRUST ME, THIS IS A LEGIT PRODUCT AND TESTING WAS JUST FINISHED. IT ALL LOOKS SOOO PROMISING.i AM STOKED!
AS FAR AS THOSE NAY-SAYERS WHO SAY "CYPONIATE OR ANY OTHER EASTER COMPOUND SO TO SPEAK" CAN NOT WORK THROUGH A ORAL DELIVERY SYSTEM W/O BEING ALKYL (METHLY OR ETHLY) ARE WRONG! WE NEED TO STUDY HARDER AND THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!
BUT THEN AGAIN THEY SAID THE WORLD WAS ONCE SQUARE TOO, DIDN'T THEY?

VIVA VPX


----------



## gopro (Jun 24, 2003)

Bigswole...you are doing a nice job of providing information on this subject. Good work. I just hope you are responded to with respect and an open mind (Yes, there are other genius' out there aside from Pat, Par, etc).


----------



## bigswole30 (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Bigswole...you are doing a nice job of providing information on this subject. Good work. I just hope you are responded to with respect and an open mind (Yes, there are other genius' out there aside from Pat, Par, etc).



There is more info I have that I was asked not to share. You know who I speek with and know that he is a standup guy. He is responsible for bringing you to VPX, correct. Out of respect for what he shared with me, but asked me to keep quiet , I have to honor his request. BTW, he did hook me up fat.


----------



## Twin Peak (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> Maybe Jack Owoc and his master chemists that he employs stumbled onto something that every other player in the PH industry has overlooked. I too am a skeptic, but I do admit there are other genuises besides Pat, Par and Bill.



Such a statement goes well beyond the PH industry.  You are saying that he has defied the laws of biochemistry and done what no chemist or scientist has ever COME CLOSE to doing.

And again, if it is just as potent, why not take steps to make sure it can't be injected, rather than take steps to make sure it can.

It is completely illogical.


----------



## gopro (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> There is more info I have that I was asked not to share. You know who I speek with and know that he is a standup guy. He is responsible for bringing you to VPX, correct. Out of respect for what he shared with me, but asked me to keep quiet , I have to honor his request. BTW, he did hook me up fat.



Yeah, I know who you are talking with. He is a very good guy and has alot of insight on the subject at hand. I also have plenty of info straight from Jack, as we speak daily, that I am unable to give out (for obvious reasons).

I'm glad T hooked you up. He's simply a cool guy.


----------



## bigswole30 (Jun 24, 2003)

Illogical in your opinion. Maybe they have their own reasons. You could be right, but maybe there is more to it. If it was not made sterile and someone injected they could sue the hell out of VPX. VPX knew this. They can't determine what someone does in their bathroom.


----------



## Twin Peak (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> Illogical in your opinion. Maybe they have their own reasons. You could be right, but maybe there is more to it. _If it was not made sterile and someone injected they could sue the hell out of VPX._ VPX knew this. They can't determine what someone does in their bathroom.



This is COMPLETEY inaccurate BS.  You are really out on a limb on this and speak about which you are well misinformed.  The law is something I most certainly know about, and this statement is completely untrue.

In the area of products liability (which is what you are hypothesizing on), a manufacturer cannot be held liable for unintended use, unless it is a foreseeable use.  Doing what is illegal and against the law is not foresable in any jurisdiction.  Moreover, if it was "foreseable" that alone would be sufficient cause for the FDA to crack down.

This is why I said it was illogical.  I was referring to a business and legal decision.


----------



## ZECH (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by bigswole30 *_
> If it was not made sterile and someone injected they could sue the hell out of VPX. VPX knew this. They can't determine what someone does in their bathroom.


Oh come on! I know you are smarter than this. That is like saying, when a drunk driver has a wreck, he will sue the beer company. Never will hold water! You have to be responsible for your own actions!


----------



## Freeman (Jun 24, 2003)

I think they got ya there bud.


----------



## Twin Peak (Jun 24, 2003)

BTW, BS, not sure if you knew this but I am a practicing attorney, and you are talking about my area of expertise.


----------



## Freeman (Jun 24, 2003)

boo-ya!


----------



## bigswole30 (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> BTW, BS, not sure if you knew this but I am a practicing attorney, and you are talking about my area of expertise.



That was my theory. I was not told that by VPX. I definitely see your point. I will be talking with VPX later and will post whatever I am told about why it was made sterile rather it is BS or not. Law is not area by any means. I will keep my theories to myself.LOl.


----------



## gopro (Jun 24, 2003)

Did you guys hear? Jack was just arrested b/c of the cyp products. He is going to do 35 years!

Note: the above statement was for entertainment purposes only and is actually bullsh%t.


----------



## Twin Peak (Jun 24, 2003)

LMAO.


----------



## ZECH (Jun 24, 2003)

He's got too much money to actually do any time!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ZECH (Jun 24, 2003)

You know them lawyers! They will get you out of anything if you have enough money!!


----------



## gopro (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> You know them lawyers! They will get you out of anything if you have enough money!!



The heck with that...when he's in jail I'm gonna take over the whole operation, and when I do our flagship product is going to be an IV drip liquid Anadrol/D-bol/Test/Parabolan combo!!


----------



## ZECH (Jun 24, 2003)

Awwhhhhh! Now the real truth of GP's new job comes out!


----------



## gopro (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Awwhhhhh! Now the real truth of GP's new job comes out!



Oh wait...I'm also going to make sure that EVERY product name has a "drol" or "bol" at the end. For example...

-Micelleanadrol
-Plasma Expandorbol
-Meltdownabol


----------



## Mudge (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> That is like saying, when a drunk driver has a wreck, he will sue the beer company. Never will hold water! You have to be responsible for your own actions!



Dont we wish the legal system was so, un-stoopid. How about falling through a skylight while attempting a break-in, suing the owners of the building and winning. Have you not seen and heard of some of the ridiculous lawsuits that have been won???


----------



## Robboe (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Mudge *_
> Dont we wish the legal system was so, un-stoopid. How about falling through a skylight while attempting a break-in, suing the owners of the building and winning. Have you not seen and heard of some of the ridiculous lawsuits that have been won???



A farmer over here is serving several years imprisonment for shooting (and subsequently killing) a burglar who was attempting to steal from his home.

The other burglar with him was shot in the leg and now walks with a limp. He's trying to sue to farmer for loss of revenue of potential employment he _could_ have had, had it not been for his limp.


----------



## Twin Peak (Jun 24, 2003)

Its much more difficult to be a theif, with a limp.


----------



## Robboe (Jun 24, 2003)

It's never effected my criminal activities.


----------



## Mudge (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy *_
> A farmer over here is serving several years imprisonment for shooting (and subsequently killing) a burglar who was attempting to steal from his home.



In my state, especially as a male, the laws are fairly against you if you shoot someone. If the person is outside of your home you "cant" shoot them. If you are not shot at first and endangered, then you pretty much kiss your ass goodbye if you shoot them first.

If youre a woman its a different ballgame, the threat has to be shown in court or else you have "no reason" to shoot. So make sure to take a bullet, or two for good measure before you shoot, just to be safe.


----------



## ZECH (Jun 24, 2003)

In NC, we shoot first and ask questions later!!


----------



## bigswole30 (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> In NC, we shoot first and ask questions later!!



Not much different down here in Georgia.


----------



## Freeman (Jun 24, 2003)

are you guys suggesting we shoot the President of VPX?


----------



## gopro (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by freeman1504 *_
> are you guys suggesting we shoot the President of VPX?



Couldn't happen...his super powers would easily deflect or stop the bullets like Neo in the Matrix.


----------



## Arnold (Jun 24, 2003)

LMAO


----------



## gopro (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> LMAO



Me too!


----------



## Freeman (Jun 24, 2003)

Ok, so he is like Neo in the Matrix.  Gopro, are you like the Incredible Hulk???


----------



## gopro (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by freeman1504 *_
> 
> 
> Ok, so he is like Neo in the Matrix.  Gopro, are you like the Incredible Hulk???




Same size, same ability, same temper, but no green skin. Oh, and I'm not a computer generated character, but quite real. Are you laughing??? Laughing makes me angry...you wouldn't like me when I'm angry...


----------



## Badger (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> In NC, we shoot first and ask questions later!!



How true this is!!


----------



## ZECH (Jun 24, 2003)

We let God sort it out!


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## Freeman (Jun 24, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Same size, same ability, same temper, but no green skin. Oh, and I'm not a computer generated character, but quite real. Are you laughing??? Laughing makes me angry...you wouldn't like me when I'm angry...



haha you crack me up Eric!


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## RCfootball87 (Jun 24, 2003)

Just for reference purposes, as a gunowner I am familliar with the deadly force law. It basically says to only use lethal force if you feel your life or wellbeing or that of your family is in danger. So if you shoot a burgular in the back while he's running away unarmed........ prepare to be a prison bitch. However if its dark in your house and you see a burgular or something and you don't know whether he has a gun or not, then blow that sucker to hell and say you thought he might have had a gun and you were scared and you should be fine.


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## RCfootball87 (Jun 24, 2003)

As far as prohormones as concerned I don't take them yet but I might 5 or 10 years down the road, so how can I show opposition to this bill? How do i go aobut writing John McCain?(not that he'll get it, or answer, or give a shit what I think...)?
I'd also like to extend a nice heartfelt "FUQ YOU!"(can i say that here?) to any politician who supports this bill.


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## Freeman (Jun 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by RCfootball87 *_
> Just for reference purposes, as a gunowner I am familliar with the deadly force law. It basically says to only use lethal force if you feel your life or wellbeing or that of your family is in danger. So if you shoot a burgular in the back while he's running away unarmed........ prepare to be a prison bitch. However if its dark in your house and you see a burgular or something and you don't know whether he has a gun or not, then blow that sucker to hell and say you thought he might have had a gun and you were scared and you should be fine.



I still think you can get into trouble, even if it is "dark".  However, I have had a police officer tell me that if this ever happens and I did shoot the guy, to then shoot one into the ceiling, and you can claim that you fired a warning shot and yelled, but the burglar kept coming into the house.


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## ZECH (Jun 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by freeman1504 *_
> I still think you can get into trouble, even if it is "dark".  However, I have had a police officer tell me that if this ever happens and I did shoot the guy, to then shoot one into the ceiling, and you can claim that you fired a warning shot and yelled, but the burglar kept coming into the house.


I know each state has different laws, but in NC, if someone is in your house, you have every right to shoot them! Armed or not, they are getting a .40 cal slug in them! The way I see it, if you break in my house, you mean no good!!


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## ZECH (Jun 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by RCfootball87 *_
> As far as prohormones as concerned I don't take them yet but I might 5 or 10 years down the road, so how can I show opposition to this bill? How do i go aobut writing John McCain?(not that he'll get it, or answer, or give a shit what I think...)?
> I'd also like to extend a nice heartfelt "FUQ YOU!"(can i say that here?) to any politician who supports this bill.


No offense RC, but if they know how old you are, it will only add to their case if you send a letter. If you want to help, the USFA can always use money donations to fight the cause. And 5 to 10 years from now, this stuff will be long gone if we don't win the fight!


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## RCfootball87 (Jun 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> No offense RC, but if they know how old you are, it will only add to their case if you send a letter. If you want to help, the USFA can always use money donations to fight the cause. And 5 to 10 years from now, this stuff will be long gone if we don't win the fight!


I know I was thinking the same thing. Its too bad so many dumbass 12 year olds are poping prohormones so they can be like Mark Mcgwire.  Although I have had short lived thoughts of taking them, I usually come to my senses in five minutes.  Actually I blame the media for making kids think they're inferior if they're not big, and strong, although I think a lot of the anti-steroid stigma the media puts out is keeping kids away from those. I think kids see them and figure if they can be sold to minors legally, they're as safe as protein.  Actually I do support a law that would limit the sale of prohormones to people 18 or older only, but that's just me. A total pro-hormone, like the steroid ban, is wrong and will only create a bigger illegal market.


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## Arnold (Jun 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> I know each state has different laws, but in NC, if someone is in your house, you have every right to shoot them! Armed or not, they are getting a .40 cal slug in them! The way I see it, if you break in my house, you mean no good!!



I thought every state had the "make my day" law?


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## ZECH (Jun 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> I thought every state had the "make my day" law?


NC is mostly "good old boys-rednecks"!
Their idea of a good Friday night is getting drunk and beating the shit out of each other! No lie! I know two brothers that did this!


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## Arnold (Jun 25, 2003)

Well, in Colorado there is a law that states if someone enters your house "uninvited" you can kill them, period. It's called the "Make My Day" law.


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## ZECH (Jun 25, 2003)

I thought you were kidding! I like that law!


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## RCfootball87 (Jun 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Prince *_
> Well, in Colorado there is a law that states if someone enters your house "uninvited" you can kill them, period. It's called the "Make My Day" law.


I wish Illinois had that law, but their are too many liberals here.


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## Arnold (Jun 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> I thought you were kidding! I like that law!



nope, dead serious. 

I was under the impression that every state passed the same law...guess not.


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## Freeman (Jun 25, 2003)

Nope, from what I understand, in MOST states, you cannot shoot at a burglar unless he physically threatens you...i.e. shoots at you..puts your life in danger, etc.  The idea being that most burglars are NOT there to kill you, but rather steal your stuff.  And if you shoot a burglar, the law says that you have become judge, jury, and executioner all in one move.  AND furthermore, the penalty for burglary is NOT execution.


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## Robboe (Jun 25, 2003)

While we're on this topic, i'd just like to give my opinion. That being that once anyone access your property without your consent, should automatically yield any rights they may have. Therefore, any (grevous) bodily harm done toward them in the act should not be classified as "illegal".

Basically, if i find any fucker trying to rob me from my property, i should be fully within my rights to ensure said individual(s) need to feed through a straw for a good 6 months after without being liable for legal action myself.


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## Twin Peak (Jun 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by freeman1504 *_
> Nope, from what I understand, in MOST states, you cannot shoot at a burglar unless he physically threatens you...i.e. shoots at you..puts your life in danger, etc.  The idea being that most burglars are NOT there to kill you, but rather steal your stuff.  And if you shoot a burglar, the law says that you have become judge, jury, and executioner all in one move.  AND furthermore, the penalty for burglary is NOT execution.



This is almost correct.  You must have a subject fear for your life or for the lives of your loved ones.  It is subjective, so you need to prove to a jury that you ACTUALLY were in fear, based on the facts.

Thus, it is easier for a woman to prove fear.

Shotting someone disarmed, or in the back, will not fly.

Its also why you can't have deadly booby traps.


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## Arnold (Jun 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by freeman1504 *_
> Nope, from what I understand, in MOST states, you cannot shoot at a burglar unless he physically threatens you...i.e. shoots at you..puts your life in danger, etc.  The idea being that most burglars are NOT there to kill you, but rather steal your stuff.  And if you shoot a burglar, the law says that you have become judge, jury, and executioner all in one move.  AND furthermore, the penalty for burglary is NOT execution.



well, then you have no understanding of the "Make My Day Law". 

http://www.co-freedom.com/2003/04/makemyday.html


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## RCfootball87 (Jun 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> This is almost correct.  You must have a subject fear for your life or for the lives of your loved ones.  It is subjective, so you need to prove to a jury that you ACTUALLY were in fear, based on the facts.
> 
> Thus, it is easier for a woman to prove fear.
> ...


Yeah, but if it's dark in the house you can just say you thought he had a gun, or you couldn't tell, and I think in most states that would fly. I can't understand how they would make you sit there and wait to see if he had a gun before firing.


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## gopro (Jun 25, 2003)

Holy moly has this one gone off topic


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## Arnold (Jun 25, 2003)

Who gives a shit whether or not they have a gun or any weapon, if they choose to break into MY house, they have given up any rights.

_
The rationale for the law is fairly straight-forward: people have a right to defend themselves and their loved ones against criminals who break into their homes. He said critics asked, "Is your TV set worth somebody's life?" He answered, "The criminal made that choice" to break into a home. A single woman cannot possibly hope to divine the intentions of an intruder, he argued. A criminal may well follow up a burglary with rape or worse. Also, a homeowner cannot be expected to just wait around and hope the intruder is unarmed. A would-be criminal can avoid the risk of getting shot simply by not breaking into people's houses.
_


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## ZECH (Jun 25, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Twin Peak *_
> Shotting someone disarmed, or in the back, will not fly.


You mean you don't keep throw away guns for that!


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## Niacin (Jun 26, 2003)

Um, freeman1504, actually in Florida we have 'castle doctrine'.  If you're in my house, and you don't have a legal right to be there, your ass is dead.

Period.  No warning shots, no argument.

Max


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## gopro (Jun 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Niacin *_
> Um, freeman1504, actually in Florida we have 'castle doctrine'.  If you're in my house, and you don't have a legal right to be there, your ass is dead.
> 
> Period.  No warning shots, no argument.
> ...



Here in New York we just shoot you on the street...look at me wrong, and your ass is dead


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## ZECH (Jun 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by gopro *_
> Here in New York we just shoot you on the street...look at me wrong, and your ass is dead


Yeah, but that is not legal!


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## gopro (Jun 26, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by dg806 *_
> Yeah, but that is not legal!




Really? I never got in any trouble for it


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## Niacin (Jun 26, 2003)

Life is cheap in the Big Apple.  You can tell by the cabdrivers.


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## gopro (Jun 27, 2003)

> _*Originally posted by Niacin *_
> Life is cheap in the Big Apple.  You can tell by the cabdrivers.



Right! Oddly enough though, in a month I'll be moving to your neck of the woods.


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## Nachez (Sep 29, 2005)

Pat arnold did not make Androstenedione, Androstenedione was developed by scientists in Nazi Germany. Hitlers scientists invented it. The Germans invented steroids!!!!!!!!!!
they gave them to thier soldiers b4 and during world war 2.
 Serle invent 1 test, Serle is a giant pharmacutical company. it was invented in 1960.


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## Nachez (Sep 29, 2005)

I belivee the leaders in the supplement industry were EAS, Weider and Twinlab. VPX is a new upstart company.


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## Arnold (Sep 29, 2005)

Nachez said:
			
		

> I belivee the leaders in the supplement industry were EAS, Weider and Twinlab. VPX is a new upstart company.



EAS and VPX are about the same age.


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## Nachez (Sep 30, 2005)

well I didnt even know VPX existed till I started seeing all the adds for it in Muscle and fitness mag as of march,

If your wondering why i subscribed to a muscle mag, I was young and 17 at the time of  july 03 and just subed  for the products advertised in the back of the mag you could order.


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## gopro (Sep 30, 2005)

Nachez said:
			
		

> well I didnt even know VPX existed till I started seeing all the adds for it in Muscle and fitness mag as of march,
> 
> If your wondering why i subscribed to a muscle mag, I was young and 17 at the time of  july 03 and just subed  for the products advertised in the back of the mag you could order.



VPX is an advertising whore, LOL! How could you not have seen them until March! They always have some of the most colorful (and controversial) ads of any company!

By the way, VPX just moved from a 14,000 sq foot buidling to a 45,000 sq foot building, so they are growing fast!


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