# How to work middle/lower traps......



## the_general64 (Jun 5, 2006)

i've been working my back recently and have noticed that i now have a dip in my back. i'm guessing because my delts and lats have gotten bigger but my traps have not. what can i do?


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## P-funk (Jun 5, 2006)

the_general64 said:
			
		

> i've been working my back recently and have noticed that i now have a dip in my back. i'm guessing because my delts and lats have gotten bigger but my traps have not. what can i do?



scapular wall retractions
cable reverse flyes
high cable reverse flyes (Pulling high to low)
prone incline DB shrugs
YTAs
prone cobras
TYLs

anything that retracts and/or depresses the scapula really.


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## Squaggleboggin (Jun 5, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> scapular wall retractions
> cable reverse flyes
> high cable reverse flyes (Pulling high to low)
> prone incline DB shrugs
> ...



Okay, now how about something not for pansies...

I would think that deadlifts and farmers walks work all parts of the traps (I certainly feel them there after a long abstinence from them, which should mean they were at least activated) and that chin ups and/or pull ups would have some effect as well. Of course, I could be completely wrong.


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## CowPimp (Jun 5, 2006)

Squaggleboggin said:
			
		

> Okay, now how about something not for pansies...
> 
> I would think that deadlifts and farmers walks work all parts of the traps (I certainly feel them there after a long abstinence from them, which should mean they were at least activated) and that chin ups and/or pull ups would have some effect as well. Of course, I could be completely wrong.



Deadlifts and farmer's walks are definitely great for working the scapular retractors, but they are only used isometrically in these lifts.  It is good to train them through isotonic movements as well.  Chinups/pullups don't really do too much for the traps, though sternum chinups bring them into play significantly if you can pull of some of those.  Various rows are still my favorite though.  However, some people have trouble properly recruiting the traps during rowing movements.


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## Squaggleboggin (Jun 6, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Deadlifts and farmer's walks are definitely great for working the scapular retractors, but they are only used isometrically in these lifts. It is good to train them through isotonic movements as well. Chinups/pullups don't really do too much for the traps, though sternum chinups bring them into play significantly if you can pull of some of those. Various rows are still my favorite though. However, some people have trouble properly recruiting the traps during rowing movements.



I see. Would yates rows be a good example of scapular retraction, then? I believe you said something about this to me before, but I could be wrong.


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## ALBOB (Jun 6, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Various rows are still my favorite though.  However, some people have trouble properly recruiting the traps during rowing movements.




My biggest problem is keeping my traps OUT of these movements.


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## CowPimp (Jun 6, 2006)

Squaggleboggin said:
			
		

> I see. Would yates rows be a good example of scapular retraction, then? I believe you said something about this to me before, but I could be wrong.



Hell yeah it is.


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## CowPimp (Jun 6, 2006)

ALBOB said:
			
		

> My biggest problem is keeping my traps OUT of these movements.



Why would you want to do that?


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## ALBOB (Jun 6, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Why would you want to do that?



I'm genetically predisposed to REALLY big traps.  They get to the point where they make my shoulders look much more narrow than they really are.  Not one time in my entire life have I done any direct trap work, but it got to the point I had to stop deadlifting because they got so big.  Also, when doing rows I'm looking to work my lats, it sucks when a secondary muscle is getting more work than the primary one.  Yeah, yeah, yeah........technique, technique, technique.  I've tried every trick in the book and it boils down to genetics.  It's just the way I'm built.


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## CowPimp (Jun 6, 2006)

ALBOB said:
			
		

> I'm genetically predisposed to REALLY big traps.  They get to the point where they make my shoulders look much more narrow than they really are.  Not one time in my entire life have I done any direct trap work, but it got to the point I had to stop deadlifting because they got so big.  Also, when doing rows I'm looking to work my lats, it sucks when a secondary muscle is getting more work than the primary one.  Yeah, yeah, yeah........technique, technique, technique.  I've tried every trick in the book and it boils down to genetics.  It's just the way I'm built.



Are you talking about your upper traps?  They shouldn't really be getting any work as a result of deadlifting and rows, well not much anyway.  Also, your middle/lower traps are prime movers in rowing, not secondary at all.  That's why I have people row a lot and do movements that involve scapular retraction, because most people need it bad!


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## ALBOB (Jun 7, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Are you talking about your upper traps?  They shouldn't really be getting any work as a result of deadlifting and rows, well not much anyway.  Also, your middle/lower traps are prime movers in rowing, not secondary at all.  That's why I have people row a lot and do movements that involve scapular retraction, because most people need it bad!



Yep, talking about uppers.  SHOULDN'T get any work from deads.  Tell that to my traps.

Yeah, I guess I sort of glazed over the scapular retraction part of rows.  I retract that part of my statement.  My uppers still get big from deads though.  And no, I do not shrug at the top of my deads.


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## Pedigree (Jun 7, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> Are you talking about your upper traps?  They shouldn't really be getting any work as a result of deadlifting and rows, well not much anyway.  Also, your middle/lower traps are prime movers in rowing, not secondary at all.  That's why I have people row a lot and do movements that involve scapular retraction, because most people need it bad!



Upper traps are worked with heavy deads.


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## assassin (Jun 7, 2006)

Pedigree said:
			
		

> Upper traps are worked with heavy deads.



if this was true i don't think they are worked to the point that get them bigger....sometimes  upper traps look big when they are covered with fats..... if u don't want size for ur upper traps so use high reps but not quit doing them........


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## CowPimp (Jun 7, 2006)

I guess the way you're built you use your upper traps more than most people to extend your cervical spine, but generally they shouldn't be getting nearly as much stimulation as your middle/lower traps, rhomboids, and erectors.


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## Pedigree (Jun 7, 2006)

assassin said:
			
		

> if this was true i don't think they are worked to the point that get them bigger....sometimes  upper traps look big when they are covered with fats..... if u don't want size for ur upper traps so use high reps but not quit doing them........


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## Squaggleboggin (Jun 7, 2006)

My traps are, quite honestly, pretty damn big; this is a direct result of heavy deads and farmers walks. After all, I do virtually nothing else that would use the upper traps at all, so I have no idea how else they would've grown and gotten stronger.


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## P-funk (Jun 7, 2006)

who the fuck cares about upper traps?  The thread is about lower traps.  Most people have over active upper traps and weak lower traps as it is.  Focus on the exercises I listed to help work on those lower traps and work on hitting the scapular stabilizers.  Focus on those exercises and then be aware of your lower traps when you do strenthening exercises like deadlifts and pulldowns, etc, and really try and retract those shoulder blades.


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## CowPimp (Jun 7, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> who the fuck cares about upper traps?  The thread is about lower traps.  Most people have over active upper traps and weak lower traps as it is.  Focus on the exercises I listed to help work on those lower traps and work on hitting the scapular stabilizers.  Focus on those exercises and then be aware of your lower traps when you do strenthening exercises like deadlifts and pulldowns, etc, and really try and retract those shoulder blades.



This is pretty much the approach I take with clients.  I have them do some activation stuff for their external rotators and scapular retractors, sometimes throw in a loaded exercise for the traps during the workout, and then really harp on them when doing pulling movements.  I always put my hands on their traps and make sure they're retracting.


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## P-funk (Jun 7, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> This is pretty much the approach I take with clients.  I have them do some activation stuff for their external rotators and scapular retractors, sometimes throw in a loaded exercise for the traps during the workout, and then really harp on them when doing pulling movements.  I always put my hands on their traps and make sure they're retracting.




yup, we activate, then we strengthen.  Sometimes people focus to much on the activation and correcting every little thing.  The important thing is to get that body part firing, make the person aware of it and then get over and do some serious strength work for it....otherwise, all the activation in the world wont solve the problem.  You need the strength.


Putting your hands on is a good idea.  There was a book written about this called "touch training" (forgot who wrote it).  I bought it on amazon.com used for like $2.  Anyway, I do the same sort of thing to help people.  One thing you should know is that you need to keep moving your hand and retouching.  If you just place a finger in one spot, after a few seconds their body just accepts it and they stop sensing the touch.  So, touch, hold, move, re-touch, hold, etc.....Cool shit.


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## Tough Old Man (Jun 7, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> who the fuck cares about upper traps?


I love this guy. 2 years ago he would have said "don't worry about the upper traps". Now it's said they way it should have been said. "who the fuck cares about upper traps when the post is about the lower traps". 

I still think your being a little easy. Try this next time. "what are you a fucking retard"? This post is about your lower traps dumbfuck. Now do what the fuck I said before I throw your ass out a fucking window. 

Hey and Patrick can do it. 


Tough


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## P-funk (Jun 7, 2006)

Tough Old Man said:
			
		

> I love this guy. 2 years ago he would have said "don't worry about the upper traps". Now it's said they way it should have been said. "who the fuck cares about upper traps when the post is about the lower traps".
> 
> I still think your being a little easy. Try this next time. "what are you a fucking retard"? This post is about your lower traps dumbfuck. Now do what the fuck I said before I throw your ass out a fucking window.
> 
> ...




  

i just call it like i see it.


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## CowPimp (Jun 7, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> yup, we activate, then we strengthen.  Sometimes people focus to much on the activation and correcting every little thing.  The important thing is to get that body part firing, make the person aware of it and then get over and do some serious strength work for it....otherwise, all the activation in the world wont solve the problem.  You need the strength.



Yeah, the activation/dynamic warmup usually only lasts a little over 5 minutes total; you have to economize when you have an hour and you have to stretch virtually every super tight white collar worker that comes in too.




> Putting your hands on is a good idea.  There was a book written about this called "touch training" (forgot who wrote it).  I bought it on amazon.com used for like $2.  Anyway, I do the same sort of thing to help people.  One thing you should know is that you need to keep moving your hand and retouching.  If you just place a finger in one spot, after a few seconds their body just accepts it and they stop sensing the touch.  So, touch, hold, move, re-touch, hold, etc.....Cool shit.



Interesting.  I'll be more cognizant of that.  I do have a couple hand positions though.  One I like is to stick the side of my hand running up and down their spine sitting between their shoulder blades and tell them to pinch my hand with their shoulder baldes.  I also turn my hand sideways so that my thumb is on one side of the spine and fingers on the other to help them sometimes too.  The second option works a lot better if they don't have much mass back there (100 pound women); it's easier to feel.

One of the other trainers at my gym actually touches people's asses to make sure they're firing.  I haven't worked myself up to that yet, especially since a lot of my clients are gay men, heh.


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## P-funk (Jun 7, 2006)

yea, I don't do the ass touch thing.  it is a bit over the top.

the activation stuff is good.  if i have someone that is really weak in the traps we might start with some activation, move onto some direct lower trap work (scapular wall retractions), then to strengthening work, a deadlift (no squatting to keep pressure off of the rotators), rowing and pulldowns (if they are ready for it) and then, if they are ready, a modified press (not overhead) like a DB floor press.  Then we do some more direct stabilizer work, like high cable reverse flyes or YTAs and then we do some stretching of the chest and lats (PNF stretching preferably) and that is it.


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## CowPimp (Jun 7, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> yea, I don't do the ass touch thing.  it is a bit over the top.
> 
> the activation stuff is good.  if i have someone that is really weak in the traps we might start with some activation, move onto some direct lower trap work (scapular wall retractions), then to strengthening work, a deadlift (no squatting to keep pressure off of the rotators), rowing and pulldowns (if they are ready for it) and then, if they are ready, a modified press (not overhead) like a DB floor press.  Then we do some more direct stabilizer work, like high cable reverse flyes or YTAs and then we do some stretching of the chest and lats (PNF stretching preferably) and that is it.



What other activation stuff do you use?  I use the wall slides for activation a lot.  I also have them grab a strap and do behind the neck raising and lower of it sometimes.  Possibly some band pullaparts as well.  Though some people are so out of shape this stuff works well for actual strengthening exercises.


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## shiznit2169 (Jun 7, 2006)

> One of the other trainers at my gym actually touches people's asses to make sure they're firing. I haven't worked myself up to that yet, especially since a lot of my clients are gay men, heh.



Would you reconsider it, or is it appropriate, if some of your clients are attractive looking ladies?


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## CowPimp (Jun 7, 2006)

shiznit2169 said:
			
		

> Would you reconsider it, or is it appropriate, if some of your clients are attractive looking ladies?



Haha.  I would consider it, but even then I would be worried about sexual harassment or something.  It's not worth it.  What I do sometimes is have clients perform exercises and tell them to put their hands on their own ass so they can feel it fire.  I think that's even more benficial because they are giving themselves feedback and can correct it on the fly.


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## P-funk (Jun 7, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> What other activation stuff do you use?  I use the wall slides for activation a lot.  I also have them grab a strap and do behind the neck raising and lower of it sometimes.  Possibly some band pullaparts as well.  Though some people are so out of shape this stuff works well for actual strengthening exercises.




yea, all of those things....band pull aparts are good.  arm circles....shoulder circles one arm at a time, placing arm at 90 degrees of flexion and their hand on a stability ball pressed into the wall straight ahead, shoulder dislocates with a band, protraction/retraction with light DBs lying length wise on a foam roller, retraction with hands straight in front against the wall.  then we move to wall scapular retractions, DB scaption raises, etc.....you are right though, most people are so deconditioned that a lot of the warm up stuff is actually a tough workout for them as it is!

I agree about the ass touching too.


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## CowPimp (Jun 8, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> yea, all of those things....band pull aparts are good.  arm circles....shoulder circles one arm at a time, placing arm at 90 degrees of flexion and their hand on a stability ball pressed into the wall straight ahead, shoulder dislocates with a band, protraction/retraction with light DBs lying length wise on a foam roller, retraction with hands straight in front against the wall.  then we move to wall scapular retractions, DB scaption raises, etc.....you are right though, most people are so deconditioned that a lot of the warm up stuff is actually a tough workout for them as it is!
> 
> I agree about the ass touching too.



That's cool.  Actually, I use pretty much all of those in one form or another.  I really like the dislocations a lot.  Loosens up the shoulder girdle big time and allows for some external rotation too.

One thing I really like to do is have someone get in pushup position on a stability ball (Hands on the ball).  Then, I have them take their hands away and let their body bounce off the ball.  They catch themselves in the original position and try to remain stable.  I started doing this myself, and I have worked up to catching myself with one arm at a time.  Great way to get those shoulder stabilizers firing.  Of course, the client has to be somewhat advanced first, but great nonetheless.


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## Squaggleboggin (Jun 8, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> One thing I really like to do is have someone get in pushup position on a stability ball (Hands on the ball). Then, I have them take their hands away and let their body bounce off the ball. They catch themselves in the original position and try to remain stable. I started doing this myself, and I have worked up to catching myself with one arm at a time. Great way to get those shoulder stabilizers firing. Of course, the client has to be somewhat advanced first, but great nonetheless.



I like that idea. I'll have to work on that and then watch my brother try it. I'm sure I'll get a few good laughs out of it.


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## P-funk (Jun 8, 2006)

CowPimp said:
			
		

> That's cool.  Actually, I use pretty much all of those in one form or another.  I really like the dislocations a lot.  Loosens up the shoulder girdle big time and allows for some external rotation too.
> 
> One thing I really like to do is have someone get in pushup position on a stability ball (Hands on the ball).  Then, I have them take their hands away and let their body bounce off the ball.  They catch themselves in the original position and try to remain stable.  I started doing this myself, and I have worked up to catching myself with one arm at a time.  Great way to get those shoulder stabilizers firing.  Of course, the client has to be somewhat advanced first, but great nonetheless.




yea, stability ball plyo push ups are fun.

other things for shoulder strength in an advanced individual could be things like push ups with one hand on the floor and one hand on a med. ball.  Then, push ups with one hand on the floor and one on the med. ball but after each rep, you walk your hand off the ball onto the floor and the other hand goes up onto the ball and you do another rep like that.  Then, you can have one hand on the ball and one hand off the med. ball and between each rep you pass the ball to the other hand and perform a rep.  that one helps to build coordination as well.


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## CowPimp (Jun 8, 2006)

P-funk said:
			
		

> yea, stability ball plyo push ups are fun.
> 
> other things for shoulder strength in an advanced individual could be things like push ups with one hand on the floor and one hand on a med. ball.  Then, push ups with one hand on the floor and one on the med. ball but after each rep, you walk your hand off the ball onto the floor and the other hand goes up onto the ball and you do another rep like that.  Then, you can have one hand on the ball and one hand off the med. ball and between each rep you pass the ball to the other hand and perform a rep.  that one helps to build coordination as well.



Yup, I have people do that too.  If they are good enough, then they can do a plyo pushup and land on the medicine ball and do another pushup in between the passes too.  I actually have only trained one person I had do that; he had been training under the general manager for 7 years but I covered for him on his honeymoon.  Most people can't handle that.

I also like T stab pushups.  Those are REALLY hard if you put the planted hand on a medicine ball.  I just started incorporated some blast strap pushup action too; those are pretty badass.


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